4 10 250 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/04301dbfe527dad1f6de9e98c6d231f8.jpg 4c56fd75b4adb5be65874a91c821c1cc https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cb4e9e9bf6e952e494982d4d937df9a5.mp3 068d680ba8683d1c6819fe1104219a17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-11-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Lance Goines, 1945-2023 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for A Constructed Roman Alphabet.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:4995,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for <em>A Constructed Roman Alphabet</em>.<br /><br />David Lance Goines died in Berkeley, California, on February 19, 2023, at the age of 77.<br /></span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam memorial&amp;quot;}\&quot; data-sheets-userformat=\&quot;{&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;:4993,&amp;quot;3&amp;quot;:{&amp;quot;1&amp;quot;:0},&amp;quot;10&amp;quot;:0,&amp;quot;11&amp;quot;:4,&amp;quot;12&amp;quot;:0,&amp;quot;15&amp;quot;:&amp;quot;Arial&amp;quot;}\&quot;&gt;Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam memorial.&lt;/span&gt;&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:16370588}}">Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam Memorial</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 82:41 Subject LCSH Artists; Calligraphers; Typographers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Goines, David Lance, 1945--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: David Lance Goines Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 19 November 2009 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:09): Testing one, two. David Lance Goines. Okay. The first question I want to ask, and then speak loud into your machine, into your phone. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? DG (00:00:34): Well, there were so many things going on, that one of the biggest changes was development of birth control pills, which truly profoundly altered the way young people engaged in their sexual explorations. That is both an indicator of, creator of what was going on in 1960, a remarkable change in sexual relations. There were a lot of other things. Baby boomers of course were feeling their oats, and the explosion of changes in society due to their powerful influence. The change in music became very much focused on the young generation and the change in sexual morality, the adoption of what had thereto for been peripheral or non-existent drugs. The whole change in art, which once again was pretty much young folks art and fashion. Basically, I would say the tremendous shift in social power from the older generation to the baby boomers. SM (00:02:16): Is there one specific event? I think I know what it is, but let us say before the free speech movement, was there one specific event in your life that made you who you are before you even stepped foot on that Berkeley campus? DG (00:02:29): Well, it would not have been before I set foot on the Berkeley campus, but Berkeley campus was the big changing event. I mean, I was headed toward a life of probably academic accomplishment. I was headed toward probably a professorship eventually, and that seems like a reasonable place for me to have been headed perhaps, and perhaps an attorney. I did not really know. I had previously been studied for the Luther Print Ministry, and that did not work out. I was pretty much at loose ends as far as a career was concerned and was pursuing my interest in classical literature, Greek and Latin language literature, which I was not doing terribly well, and was going to be shifting more towards liberal arts probably in that sophomore year. But I had become involved, through my roommates, with a number of campus organizations, which were relatively innocuous and also had become involved once again through with the civil rights movement, which I had not previously had much attention paid. Basically, becoming involved with the organization slate caused my expulsion at the beginning of sophomore year, and that of course completely changed my path. Had I not been expelled that day, I would have gone a very, very different path. SM (00:04:39): Well, you have already answered the question, how did the free speech movement change your life, but what did this movement say about the boomer generation itself? Did what happened at Berkeley change how the universities treat students and the impact that this has still today on university campuses? The reason why I bring this up, David, because it was very obvious that people like you and Mario and others were understood what if student empowerment was all about. Still there? Hello? Hello? Speaker 3 (00:05:19): If you would like to make a call then- SM (00:05:20): Oops. What happened at Berkeley? How did this change how universities treat students today? Did you see that this impact has been ongoing, or have universities gone back to the way they were? Still there? Speaker 3 (00:05:37): If you would like to make a call, please hang up and try- DG (00:05:37): If not, we might have to do this by email. SM (00:05:50): Or else I can maybe do it on myself. What did the movement say about the boomer generation, and I speak about the free speech movement, and did what happened at the Berkeley campus back in (19)64 and (19)65 really change how universities looked at students, not only then, but now? DG (00:06:13): One change that was very noticeable with the University of California campuses thereafter were built without any central meeting places. Santa Cruz University, for example, has no center. There is no place for students to get together and hold protests. It has separate campuses that are widely distributed, and in fact many, many students do not see students from other departments. The fear of student unrest has haunted the university, and of course right now with the dramatic raise you can see the university is experiencing another episode of unrest. Whether or not they deal with this appropriately or whether they can deal with it appropriately remains seen. I do not think it is going to be the same kind of protests by any means, but the sector of student unrest certainly haunts universities all over the United States and in other countries as well. SM (00:07:28): Do you feel, David, part of this is because the people that are now running the universities were boomers and that they may have been non-activist boomers, but they experienced it as students or whatever, and they knew what happened. That is ironic that a lot of them are either boomers or the generation that [inaudible] DG (00:07:52): One of the administrators talking today to the newspaper about the student unrest at the University of California said, "In my student days, I would have done the same." His student days were probably my student days, although he seems a little younger. The University of California and other campuses really are having terrible financial problems, and they are dealing with them the way most other large government organizations are, which is by not cutting their gigantic staff, but by raising prices for their services. This is making university students very, very unhappy. However, university students are not going to not get an education simply because it is expensive. Things are going to change. They are going to be really unhappy. They are going to make the administration aware that they are really unhappy, but I do not think they are actually going to accomplish anything. We were dealing with idealistic issues. We were not talking about paying more money for something. We had a very, very strong assessment side as whole. Our lives were changed a great deal, and the whole course of American history was changed a great deal, but I do not think there is any real comparison between what we were doing then and what kids are doing now. SM (00:09:37): When you look at the boomer generation though, would not you say that one of their qualities, characteristics is this business of challenging authority, a concept of activism? DG (00:09:53): We did so, because we could. We were very powerful, and there were more of us, we had more economic clout, we had a growing political clout. I mean, remember most of us at that time were under 21 and we could not vote. The voting age has since gone down, and the power of this block that was emerging into its voting potential was truly sobering to the elected, the representatives. They knew that in only a very short period of time, we were going to be the ones doing the voting, and we already showed how powerful we were. Just as with the women's movement when the women got the vote in 1919, this tremendously changed the attitude of politicians because they knew that all of a sudden there was a huge voting block that was not there before. They had not had to pay any attention to it at all. The same the happened with our huge voting block that moved pretty much as the unit into the polls. It did not turn out the way we had in mind, of course, because things never do, but we continually developed our economic, social and political power, which is now fully in our hands at this point. People do not give up power once they have gotten it, and we are not going to give up power either. The new generation is going to have to figure out how to get power away from us, probably by waiting around until we die, which will work extremely well. SM (00:11:41): What do you think are, list some characteristics that you think define the boomer generation. Again, it is between 70 and 74 million people and we are dealing with a lot of different people here, but if there were characteristics, what would be their strengths and their weaknesses? DG (00:11:58): Well, the strengths are that we actually possess a great deal of real power. Weaknesses is that we have basically, now that we are in power, we are quite complacent. We really genuinely changed American society when we think of birth control bill, think of abortion, think of civil rights movement, think of the anti-Vietnam protest, and so on and so forth. The change in morality, the change in the way society behaves and views itself is entirely due to our pressure. But once we got what we wanted, we relaxed. We are also, to some extent, preventing the younger generation from the asserting its power and control because we have it and we do not particularly want to give it up. As I said, they are going to have to be patient, wait till we start dying in much, much larger numbers. SM (00:12:58): What do you feel has been the impact that boomers have had on their children and their grandchildren? We are dealing with college students today that are so-called millennials, and they do not really have any problem with their parents, but only about 15-20 percent now of the parents are boomers. They are generation Xers now who are having their kids in college. DG (00:13:17): We are the grandparents at this point. Well, we still basically own everything. I mean, we physically own everything and we are responsible. I mean people like me, I bought my house in 1980. My monthly mortgage payment is about half a bunch people pay for an apartment. I bought my shop, the building I am in, in 1980. I got my business started in 1965. I am basically firmly entrenched. I am not having the economic problems that a lot of other people are having. Young people now, I mean when I went to college, my semester fees were $75. I worked my way through school. I had a halftime job as a page in the library, a dollar and a quarter an hour, and I was-was not rich, but I was not having a problem. It is not possible to work your way through college now. It is not possible. Nobody, even at the public university level, can work their way through school. It is not possible. The private universities do not even think about it. What happens is that when I also, when graduated or potentially graduated, I was more or less guaranteed a job simply possessing a college degree, guaranteed a good job. Now possessing a college degree is a guarantee of getting a job as a waiter or a waitress. SM (00:14:58): Yeah, you are right. DG (00:14:58): You are not equipped to go out into the job market unless you have gone into some art sciences like my nephew who is mechanical engineer or my niece who's a nurse. If you have gone into hard sciences or hard social services, yes you will get a job, but if you have got a degree in medieval French literature, that and 10 cents will get you a cup of coffee. It is worthless. You enter the job market with the degree that basically does not give you anything and that this makes people very, very unhappy. They are deeply in debt and they have got something that is not negotiable currency, whereas when I went in and not only was I not in debt, I was guaranteed good employment. I mean, this makes you very sad and very-very thick apart. SM (00:15:58): Right. DG (00:16:01): I think that the current generation is bitterly disappointed. I mean, basically we say in jest that my generation used up all the fun, but we not only did we use up all the fun, we used up all the money. Things are bad now, and they are going to get worse. I am the leading edge of social security, and millions and millions of my fellow Americans are going to demand that social security. Well, there is no money for it. You do not get a good job when you graduate from college, you are deeply in debt if you graduate from college, and you are not guaranteed basically anything that we took for granted. We just took for granted all these wonderful things. For my dollar and a quarter an hour job, for one hour's labor. I could buy five or six gallons of gasoline, I could buy 25 candy bars, I could get a pack of cigarettes of beer and a decent meal for my one hour's work. Now how many packs of cigarettes can you get at minimum wage now, one? How many gallons of gasoline can you get for your, let us say $8 an hour, two or three? How many candy bars can you buy, between six and eight? Okay, that is a huge, huge difference. Wages have not kept up the cost of living. For a while, it looked like anybody who wanted to get a house, but that turns out not to work out too well. You cannot get a house now. I mean, you have to be able to, people right now are coming up 40 percent down payments, and that is what allows them to get a loan from a bank. No more of this signature stuff. The economic situation is bad, but my generation, the first generation in history of America, of human race, never to go hungry. We never wanted for food. That had never happened before. My parents were both very badly malnourished during the Depression. My mother went temporarily blind from a vitamin B deficiency. Her parents lived through miserable economic time. They had a very hard time. We did not know what want was. My whole generation, beginning in 1945 when I was born, everything was swell. We were the only intact economic power in the world. We fed ourselves and everybody else. We bought our own cars, we bought our own product. Nobody else could compete with us either financially or economically or in terms of production, and that is over. That has changed. SM (00:19:27): Where does the blame? Is there a blame game here? The boomer generation, and you know this being in Berkeley and elsewhere, that they are the many of the boomers felt that they were the most unique generation in American history because they were going to change the world. They were going to end racism, sexism, and war. They were going to create a whole new world of love and peace and harmony. DG (00:19:52): Good does not it? SM (00:19:53): What went wrong? DG (00:19:55): Well, nothing went wrong. You cannot change everything just because you want to. Also, think there is the law of unintended consequences that crops up. If you want the Peace Corps and you want to help all the starving people in Africa, you have to realize that what you are creating is a dependent population that you are going to have to keep on feeding because they do not have the ability to feed themselves. When you run out of money and you decide you cannot keep feeding everyone in Africa, what is going to happen to those people? Well, they are going to get really mad. You mean well, you really do mean well, but the road to hell is paved with good intention. We have created all sorts of whirlwinds. That tornadoes out there without really meaning to, we did not mean harm, we did not end war. Just wanting to end war is not going to make it end. It does not take two people to fight, it only takes one, and you cannot spread your message of peace, love, and good vibes to those who are not interested. He comes up and starts pounding on you with his fist. Well, either fight back or not, but that has nothing to do with what he has done. My message of peace and love will not really work. It is not one [inaudible] We had tremendous economic and manufacturing power, and because of that we did not develop anything that we perhaps should have. For example, small cars. We did not need small cars. We had huge roads, we had plenty of gas with really cheap. We did not have to pay any attention to the small car market, so in the 1970s, there was a small car market that had been created by foreign manufacturers and there was absolutely nothing that American manufacturers had so the market began to shift toward foreigners. Had we developed small cars in the 1950s and 1960s, would have been a very different story, but we did not because we did not have to. Now, I look down the street and I see oh zero American cars. That would be not one single American car. I am seeing all foreign cars. They are German, they are Japanese. Nope. They are German car. Because of Toyota, right. Where are the American cars? Well, they are going out of business. Why are they going out of business? Because they did not respond to a market that they did not know was there. It is noticeable, it is not bad. They did not have to change, so they did not. SM (00:22:58): How do you respond to the critics of the boomer generation? You see them all the time. George Will, whenever he gets a chance, oftentimes writes articles blaming the problems of our society today on that generation that grew up in the (19)60s and (19)70s. I believe he is part of it, but he has written a lot about the failure of that time. Newt Gingrich, when he came into power in (19)94, talked about it and he still does occasionally, that all the problems, the drug culture, the lack of the sexual revolution, all the concept of everybody is a victim, all these things, the welfare state, everything. Breakup of the American family, divorce rate, all goes back to those times when boomers were young and whether in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and the way they lived their lives so the problems were all during that time. The Democratic Party even broke apart because of that. DG (00:23:59): Let us suppose for the sake of discussion that they are absolutely right. So what? What are they going to do? Get back to the way back machine and go back to the 1945 and me not being conceived? How are they going to change anything by their pointing and complaining? Does not make the slightest difference. I do not pay any attention to it. They are remarks are meaningless. Are you going to go back and un-invent birth control pills? Are you going to go back and change any of the developments that have happened? Are you going to not let us go to the moon? How are you going to do all that? Well, you are not going to do it. It is a waste of my breath to even respond to their criticism, and therefore will not respond to their criticism. SM (00:24:46): How about the movements? Because one of the things we all know historically, not only what happened at the free speech movement, but the civil rights movement was already strong, and the anti-war movement became very big at the time boomers were young, but it also spawned other movements like the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, Chicano, Native American, the environmental movement. It goes on and on. Could you talk about those movements and how important they were in defining the generation? DG (00:25:15): They were happening anyway. One thing that is important to remember is that the mill does not make the water run, my great-grandmother often said. An example is the Clairol hair coloring product. They did not create women's demand for hair coloring. They recognized that there was a product that would do it and they capitalized on it. The women's movement has been in continuous operation since about 1795, and we did not create it. We merely responded to what was already going on. Do they want to go back and not give women the vote and have all that fun again? I do not think so. The changes in society have far more to do with technological changes and sheer mass. When I was born, there were 135 million people in the United States. How many are there now? Triple that? Did we cause this terrible thing to happen? No, we did not. Right? The welfare system that we inherited was a product of the late 1940s and early 1950s. We had nothing, whatever to do that. I was seven years old. The welfare system and the terrible things that have come in consequence of that would be perhaps you can blame Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Be my guest. But just because there is a problem does not mean there is a solution, and if there is a solution, the famous quote, "To every question is a simple, easy to understand, wrong answer." The environmental situation in which we are was certainly not started by us. That was begun by Rachel Carlson in 1963. Well, I would have been how old? 20? No, 18. Sorry, I did not start it. The birth control pill, that was started by Margaret- SM (00:27:29): Sanger. DG (00:27:31): Margaret Sanger and Katherine McCormick. That was 1958. I was eight. No, wait. How old was I? 13. I did not do it. Sorry, wrong guy. These people have complaints about the things that have happened in our society, they should complain to the preceding generation, if anything. SM (00:27:56): One must say though, the anti-war movement was something very strong to the boomers, and particularly your thoughts on how important the boomers were on college campuses and ending that Vietnam War? DG (00:28:08): I do not think we were terribly important in ending the war. We were very important to making it quite clear that we were not happy about being drafted. There were wars that had been going on for quite a while before that people demonstrated great unhappiness with, but the wars went on nonetheless. The mistake of the powers that be was in drafting college students. College students did not want to go. Do not draft the ones who can fight back, draft the ones who cannot fight back. I do not know what result, I mean that war was a mistake. It was pretty obvious that we had gotten off on the wrong foot. But unfortunately, once you start something, just because you realize you have made a mistake does not mean you can end it. If I look out there and I see, oh my God, there is a huge forest fire. Let me blow out the match that I just started it with, what does that do? That does nothing. Right? Just because there is a big forest fire and you started it with your match, does not mean that blowing out the match have any effect. I know what caused it, but there is nothing I can do about it. I mean, if you had asked me to go talk to Ho Chi Minh, maybe things would be different, but I was not old enough. SM (00:29:43): When did the? DG (00:29:43): [inaudible] was 1954. I was what? Eight, seven. SM (00:29:47): Right. Yeah. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? DG (00:29:55): 1960s began in 1960 and they ended in 1970. I mean, what do you mean? SM (00:30:00): Was there a watershed moment that you knew that this- DG (00:30:03): [inaudible] event? No, there were many, many things. There were many, many things that contributed to it, and the 1960s is just a convenient calendar moment. Delete the calendar. It had no effect. There were so many things going on. A lot of it had to do with the economic power of those who became recognized as the boomers. A lot of it had to do with the immense technological and social power of the United States. After World War II, a lot of us had to do with amazing technological changes that were quite unthought of in the 1940s. Take computers for example. They just all came together with the confluence of things. You can start at any level you want. You can start talking about the combine harvester and chemical fertilizer, you can talk about changes in metallurgy. Where do you want to start? Everything came together, and it was largely because of our extremely large number and our tremendous self. We had a huge amount of power, and we used the power because when you have power, you use it. But what you do [inaudible] First, we asked permission nicely and then when that turned out not to work too well, we did what we goddamn well pleased, and no one could stop us. SM (00:31:52): People that say that, well, (19)60s really began when John Kennedy was killed and it really ended either Kent State or when the helicopter flew off the building in Saigon in (19)75. DG (00:32:08): They are free to say that if they wish. SM (00:32:19): Right. DG (00:32:19): But there are no beginnings, there are no endings. SM (00:32:21): I am just speculating here. If I had 500 people off from all over the country in an auditorium and we took a vote on the event that shaped their line lives the most, what do you think the number one event would be? DG (00:32:34): Depends who these people are. You are just thinking them at random? SM (00:32:39): Yeah-yeah. Just boomers. Anybody born to- DG (00:32:42): Oh, someone born after 1945 and before 1960? SM (00:32:44): (19)64. DG (00:32:46): (19)64, whatever it is. I do not know. There would be probably many-many answers. There were huge, amazing technological things that happened. Man landing on the moon is pretty darn dramatic. The relaxation of social [inaudible] as far as literature, movie, books, and the like. The computer, probably I would have to say technologically the computer. This is having as much effect on society as the invention of printing by movable type and 1456, and the change is happening every bit as fast. Socially, the sheer numbers of people who came into existence after World War II in the United States, they are simple numbers. They are simple numbers and their immense economic power. Young people always want to have sex, and drugs, and rock and roll. I mean, that is what they all want. But we could actually get away with it, so many of it. They had so much power. Basically, the grownups could not stop us. They tried. Now we are the grown-ups. SM (00:34:16): When the (19)60s happened and a lot of the challenge of two authority took place on college campuses, I would go back to the (19)50s when things seemed to be so calm and most of the boomers were in elementary school. They had great Christmases and Thanksgivings. They were always with their parents. Parents were providing them with... DG (00:34:36): Unlike Ronald Reagan. SM (00:34:37): A lot. Of course, we watched black and white television, and of course we were had the thread of the nuclear bomb all the time, but the kids I was around never really thought that much about the nuclear bomb. DG (00:34:50): You are actually buying Ronald Reagan's stick and chain world. SM (00:34:54): No, I am not buying it. DG (00:34:55): [inaudible] SM (00:34:57): But the question is, what was it? Was there something about the (19)50s that helped shape young people? Even if they were only reaching junior high school when 1960 arrived, but was there something about the (19)50s that somehow helped shape them, whether it be television or? DG (00:35:16): Never went hungry. Never wanted for food. It had never happened before. This is extremely important. We never went hungry. We did not know what privation was. We expected whatever we wanted, and we got it. The 1950s were, remember, right after World War I, World War II, and the Great Depression. People were poor. They were poor for a long time. One whole generation. My father, for example. Now my grandfather born in World War I, then there was the Great Depression, then there was World War II, and then there is the (19)50s where it can buy a new refrigerator for the very first time. You can buy a car. You do not have to drive that 1932 Ford anymore. You could buy whatever you wanted. It was wonderful. There was everything. Buy anything you wanted to, whereas for the preceding, oh what, 70 years, had not been able to buy anything, right? During the war, could you buy a new dress? No, you could not. Did you get all the butter you wanted? No, you could not. Get a new refrigerator? No. Did you get a new car? No, they were not making cars or refrigerators. In the 1950s, all of a sudden, not only could you get a new refrigerator, but you get a new refrigerator that actually worked. You could get a new car that was actually pretty good. My grandfather, neither my father nor my grandfather had that new car ever in their lives. My father's first car was in 1934 Dodge, and it was a piece of junk but it was all there was. You were not risking your life in some war. You were not starving because you did not have any money. You were not basically living in a barter economy where you were trading eggs for say, gasoline. It was a wonderful world and that the world I was born into, and I did not know any different. I had never been in a world with privation. SM (00:37:42): But you admit though, that there was privation in the (19)50s because when you watched black and white TV and you watched the Mickey Mouse Club and you saw all those Hobby Duty and all the television shows, you never saw people of color. DG (00:37:55): Well, there might have been privation, but compared to what had been going on before, believe me, it was nothing. I mean, you can say, yeah, people were poor, people were unhappy. Well, people are always poor and they are always unhappy, but compared to the 1930s, compared to the war years, compared to World War I, get real. Come on. Do not try to get the private. A person on welfare now has a better standard of living than a middle class family of 1900. A middle class American family of 1900 would have nothing like the expectations set up Negro on welfare in Oakland gets. Nothing. No comparison. Clean water, good streets, automobile, television, telephone, electrical power, adequate, safe food. Come on. There is no comparison. SM (00:38:54): Do you feel that? This is a question I just want to ask, and we asked the same question to Senator Musky a year before he passed away, when I took students down to Washington, DC and he had an interesting response that we did not expect. But here is the question. I want to read this to you. It says, "Do you feel boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth. The division between black and white, divisions between those who supported authority and those who were against it, between those who supported the troops and those who did not? We know that the Vietnam Memorial in Washington has healed many of the veterans and their families, but what has it really done to heal the nation as James Scruggs says in the title of his book?" Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this about 40 years later? Where it is a statement time heals all wounds, the truth. I say this because when we asked Senator Musky this, we were thought he was going to talk about 1968 and all those divisions at the Chicago Convention, and his response is we have not healed since the Civil War. He was in the hospital, and he said he had saw the Ken Burn series and it really touched him with 400,000 people that died and almost a generation wiped out and the population was obviously a lot smaller than it is today, but just your thoughts on this is there an issue of healing? DG (00:40:29): Okay, the first place, you have asked a question that contains its own answer, and consequence I cannot answer it. You say, what are we doing about the rift that was created? That means I have to say there was a riff. I do not believe it. I cannot answer your question. It is what we call a false question. This is not the kind of thing you cannot get away with in a court of law, leading the witness, right? You might say, was there a division? If there was a division, is it healing in the first place? I say there is always people who want A and people who do not want A and people who want B and do not want B. This is constantly going on. I do not think you are going to find people. You will have no trouble, for example, finding people who are unhappy about women being given the to vote in 1919. You will have no trouble finding people who are unhappy about that. You will have no trouble finding people unhappy about everything. It is the way it is. People are unhappy, or they have nothing better to do. They will be unhappy about something. Right? Was there a division? Of course there was a division. Is it healing? Who cares? So what? It is over with. Cannot go back and change it, right? If I could go back to Franklin Delano Roosevelt Administration and talk to him about some of the problems that were created by his wonderful Social Security Administration and by the marvelous welfare system [inaudible] in place and say, "It is not going to work. It is going to do terrible things. You cannot build a pyramid scheme. If you take people and make them dependent upon you for their lives, it is not going to work. It is going to create terrible problems in society." If I were to say do not do it, do not force people to give you part of their money and then guarantee that you were going to support them for as long as they worked in a [inaudible] I am accustomed. My father's contribution to social security was critically small. I mean he earned $10,000 a year, big bucks, but how much did he put into social security and then how much did he take out? He lived a good long life after he retired, maybe 25 years, and all that time he is getting money and a lot of money too. There was nothing like the $300 a year that he put in. I mean, you actually think he is going to live on $300 a year? No, he cannot live on $300 a year. Where is that money coming from? Well, from the next generation. Okay, now where is your pyramid scheme? Your pyramids team will always fail, and that is what social security is, a pyramids scheme, and it is failing. I cannot do anything about it. I cannot go back and change it. There is nothing I can do. If you ask me, were there division? Of course there were division. What can I do about it? Nothing. This is not like voluntarily turning off the water. Honey, would you please turn off the water? Sure, I will go turn it off right now. This is not like that. This is the past. Cannot change it. You cannot even recognize what happened. One of the fallacies of sociology is that it actually thinks it knows what is going on. They actually think they know what is going on. Do you know any economists who are not ashamed of their trade right now? Did they predict this big meltdown? No, they did not. It seems blindingly obvious in retrospect. SM (00:44:30): Do you think the wall has done, and you have probably been to the wall, have not you? DG (00:44:34): The Vietnam Memorial? SM (00:44:34): Yeah. DG (00:44:34): Yeah. Beautiful. SM (00:44:38): Do you think that is done? Jan Scruggs book is all about, he thought this was the first step toward healing the nation beyond even the veterans. I go there every year for Memorial Day and Veterans Day. DG (00:44:51): I suppose these people have to write books to make a living. I think that is nonsense. SM (00:44:56): Okay. DG (00:44:57): You actually think building a sculpture is going to undo 58,000 deaths. Ask the wives and mothers sometimes, ask the girlfriends, I have a neighbor who had just died, whose son was killed in World War II, who pined all her life long for a lover who was killed in World War I. Ask the wives and mothers of all those people who were killed how do they feel about it? Are they going to heal? No, they are not going to heal. There is no healing. These people are dead. You cannot heal that. Get over it, kind of. Still there? SM (00:45:45): Yep. I am here. Let me change the tape. I got to turn my tape over. This leads into my next question, which is a question on the issue of trust whether the boomer just generation is not a trusting generation. I say this- DG (00:46:01): Well, why should we be? We were lied to constantly. SM (00:46:05): Yep. That is why I brought up because of the Watergate, the Tonkin Golf Resolution, we even saw Eisenhower lie about U-2, and there seemed to be no respect for anyone in position of authority. DG (00:46:17): Well, a politician's job is to lie. That is their job. That is what we pay them for. We pay them to do two things that we do not want. One is make damn laws all the time, whether we need them or not. I mean, that is what we ask them to do. We say, "Okay, we are going to elect you to make a bunch of laws," and that is what they do. They take us at our word, they make a bunch of laws. They do not know what they are doing. They mess things up. The second thing is that in order to get reelected, because half the population is really mad at them all the time, they have to lie all the time. It is a habit. They do not even mean it. There is no malice. They just lie. It is what they do. Do I trust politicians? No, I do not. Do I have any alternative? No, I do not. I cannot live in anarchic society. I cannot live somewhere else. I live here. I live now. I live in the 21st century. I cannot live some other [inaudible] or some other place. This is what I have got. They are liars, so I do not trust them. So what? SM (00:47:23): Do you believe what political scientists often say is that to the lack of trust in your government is actually a healthy thing, because by just- DG (00:47:33): [inaudible] very best of health in that case. SM (00:47:35): Yeah, I want to be, you are a great artist. I have been looking at some of your work, and we think of you in the free speech movement, but boy, you are one heck of an artist. I am going to eventually buy some of your works and everything, but how do the arts define the boomer generation from other generations before and after? I think I mentioned in my note, we all think of the arts at that time, we think of Andy Warhol and Peter Max's posters and all those other things during that time. But what were the messages of the artwork that took place when the boomers were young that have been ongoing since that time, and is it is the art from that period and the people that grew up in that period a reflection of the times which were rebellious and non-conformist? Just your thoughts on the art itself. DG (00:48:31): Well, I think art is basically something that each generation reevaluates and create for itself. Let us take an example of Vermeer. Vermeer was, during his lifetime, largely unrecognized. I do not believe he sold any paintings. He was utterly obscure until the late 19th century when one of one particular critic rediscovered him, and through a series of amusing circumstances, he became more and more prominent. Now, whereas in 1875, you could have bought girl with a pearl earring for six guilders, which no matter how you cut it is not very much money. I do not believe you could buy that painting for any sum, whatever. I mean, let us suppose if I said I will give you $100 billion for that painting, you probably would turn me down. Okay, what happened? Well, a new generation came along and reevaluated the art that had been rejected by an older generation. The same thing exactly happened to been Van Gogh. He sold, I believe, one painting during his life, but maybe none. That which was reviled by an earlier generation is treasured by a new one because everything changes. Van Gogh is not any different of course. Van Gogh paintings are absolutely utterly the same paintings that he painted, but our attitudes toward him is entirely different. Our attitudes toward our own art, there are artists who were unbelievably famous and wealthy in their day whom you have never heard of. I assure you, you have never heard of them. Sir Lawrence Alma-Tadema, have you ever heard of him? SM (00:50:16): No. DG (00:50:17): Okay. He was the most famous artist in the world in the late 19th century. He made more money than anybody ever, ever made, and you have never heard of him. All right. There you have it. Right? We do not like his art. We think it is silly. It is coming back. Be patient. But art is our own. We like it because it is ours. We do not like it because it is good. We do not like it because it addresses human issues that are eternal. We like it because it belongs to us. It is ours, of course we like it. We like our own stuff. The old Yiddish saying, "A fart has no nose." Of course, we like our own stuff. It is ours. Check back in 100 years to see what people think of entirely white paintings with long, long explanations attached to them. Check back and see what people think of crucifixes encased in plastic bags filled with urine. Check back. Let me know what happens. I doubt it is going to make it. SM (00:51:28): Why was Warhol and Peter Max so popular with young people, boomers? DG (00:51:33): Because they spoke to their generation. They are ours. You like your own stuff. Right? I personally never cared for them, but then again, I am in the minority evidently. I do not like Van Gogh either, so hey, I am a minority. I beg your pardon? SM (00:52:00): No, go right ahead. Continue. DG (00:52:00): You know like your own stuff. Our generation likes things that our generation does. The next generation is probably going to throw a lot of it away, but then they will create their own stuff that they like. I do not know what posterity is going to think of me, and frankly, I do not care. I will be dead. Do not make much money when you are dead. I do not care. I am a working artist right now. I do art for a living. I am really happy to do that. I am very grateful that I can make a living doing what I [inaudible] and I get paid for it. My brother, who is a jazz musician gets paid to play music. Boy is he happy, right? He does not say, "What is posterity going to think of me?" He says, "How can I pay the rent?" That is what I say too. I am glad people are paying me to do what I love to do, and I am glad I am recognized and that people like my artwork, and my brothers really glad that people pay him to play music and he is really glad that they like it. But neither one of us gives a hoot in hell about what the next generation thinks, [inaudible] SM (00:53:05): How about, you are talking about art. Let us talk about music. The music is really something that defines the boomers, and not only in terms of folk music, rock music, and certainly the Motown sound, but how important was that with respect to delivering the messages that many of the youth had and the impact they had on the generation? DG (00:53:26): Just like any other generation, it is theirs. That music is ours. In 1920, our music was jazz. We created it. It is ours, it belongs to us, and it really helps the grownups do not like it. That makes us very, very happy. Grownups do not like anything that their kids too. Grownups do not want their kids to become independent. Grownups want their kids to be kids, and kids want to be grownups. I like my own music. I like my generation of music because it is mine, and I do not like that new rap music. Does that sound vaguely familiar? SM (00:54:05): Yes. DG (00:54:08): I do not like that new rap music. Why do not I like it? It is just noise. It is jungle music. Cannot understand the lyrics. It is all about sex and violence. Oh, that is me quoting my dad when he first heard rock and roll. I am quoting my dad, and you know what his dad said in the 1920s when he was looking at jazz? It is jungle music. It is just noise. Cannot understand the lyrics, all about sex. It is same stuff, right? Nothing ever changes. We like our music, but it is ours. That is why we like it. SM (00:54:46): Do not forget, Elvis came about in the (19)50s. DG (00:54:49): We love Elvis. He is ours. SM (00:54:52): Yeah. DG (00:54:53): Belongs to what? He was banned by the grownups. Remember Ed Sullivan? SM (00:55:01): Yes. DG (00:55:05): Cutting him off at the hips. SM (00:55:05): Yep. DG (00:55:05): Ooh, boy did that make my parents mad. SM (00:55:05): I think the Doors when they were on Ed Sullivan, Jim Morrison could not say a couple words from his music either. DG (00:55:12): We are in charge now. Right? My father is dead. He does not get to say what kind of music I listen to anymore. SM (00:55:20): David, what were the books? What were the books that you read and some of your peers read in the (19)60s that you think had an influence on the early boomers? DG (00:55:35): Well, honestly, I would say that it was not the books that we read. It was the books that we could not read. What we cared about was being prevented from reading, for example, Ulysses or Tropic of Cancer, or Lolita. These books are neither better nor worse than the other books, but we were not allowed to read them. The Supreme Court would not let us, and we changed that about as fast as we could. The important things are what is of our generation. The important things were what we were not allowed to read. When in 1952, when the comic books suddenly disappeared, that made me really mad. I was only seven, but my favorite comic books were the horror comics and the war comics, which was cauldron, and all of a sudden they all disappeared. Well, I believe me, I never forgot that. It was not so much what we did read. It was what we were not allowed to read. That is what I think made the big difference is that we forced the whole system to allow us to read anything we wanted to read. Then we either read or did not read. It is the thought that you do not have to go out and buy Lolita, and you do not have to read it if you do not want to, but there is nothing that prevents you from doing so, whereas that was absolutely not the case in the 1950s. SM (00:57:06): How influential were the beat writers in terms, because in the (19)50s, lack of respect for authority or rebellious and they were even ahead of their time. DG (00:57:18): For one thing, remember there were not terribly many of them. Another thing is an awful lot of their work could not be sent through the mail. Howl, for example, how would you get a copy of Powell? Could not mail it. They could not buy it on the news stand. It was not in the library. How influential were these words? They were influential because they were banned. Take away the ban, the stuff is pretty boring. I mean, Alan Ginsberg, come on, talks about nothing but his dick. Really boring, but prohibit it, and suddenly become fantastically interesting. When I read Howl, it was behind closed doors, my teacher could have been fired for allowing us to read it, in fact recommended it. That made it really cool. If you just said, "Okay, we are going to assign, you have to read Howl." Come on, this is terrible stuff, but told me I cannot read it, oh, very different story. SM (00:58:23): I have got three quotes here from three big personalities from that period, and which of these do you think better defines the era? Obviously the Malcolm X, "By any means necessary." We saw that all the time. Peter Max, he used to always have this quote on many of his posters. "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." The third one obviously is the Bobby Kennedy quote, which is actually I think a Henry David Thoreau quote, and that is, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?" That was very popular amongst the boomers and you still hear that quote today, but those are very popular quotes and statements and on posters back then. Is there one over the other or do they all kind of define the era? DG (00:59:17): They are all contentious content. The case of Malcolm X is probably, that would ring the truest, but believe me, I would rather lose the ability to understand the English language than agree with Peter Max. Politicians say what politicians say. Who pays any attention to them? I do not think I could agree very much with any of them. By any means necessary, what do you mean? You do not mean that. You cannot possibly mean that. That is a mad man talking. Besides, you always get things you do not want. You think you are doing A, in fact, you are really doing A subprime, which is extremely different. You think you are in control of your actions, but you are not. You are created by your time, you are created by circumstances. We are far, far more influenced by technology. We are far more influenced by changes in society that we do not even are really conscious of. There is some swell sounding quotes you can put out there. I like Robin Williams myself. "If you remember, you were not there." One of my favorites. SM (01:00:49): Yeah. Another one you hear a lot and with the 40th anniversary of Woodstock is that everybody claims they were there. They were not. DG (01:00:55): Yeah. There is also the number of people in Candlestick Park during the 1989 earthquake is quite surprising. SM (01:01:05): Wow. DG (01:01:07): Several million. I did not realize it was that big. There was a big football game in 1982, the great Cal-Stanford football game. SM (01:01:18): No, I was out there then, and that is when the musicians of the band came on the field. DG (01:01:22): You know how many people watched that happen? Well, I know for a fact 6,000 people sitting in that stadium, so the hundreds of thousands of people that I have talked to, it is just not possible somehow. I listened to it on the radio. I suppose that counts. SM (01:01:42): Actually, my sister was out there in (19)89. She worked at an insurance company, then she could see Candlestick Park when she was coming out, and she felt like she was having a dizzy spell and got down on the grass and all of her friends were going to the car. DG (01:01:55): Along with everybody else in the Bay Area. SM (01:01:56): Yeah. DG (01:01:58): Well I mean, the thing is that social events are far more powerful. There is things that we are not really conscious of, things that we do not really think about. People, if they are really good, will say things that reflect the time well. They will have a Henry David Thoreau or a William Shakespeare or an Ezra Hound who is capable of expressing the time, and if they are really good, they will express times that come after them. Shakespeare is holding up pretty darn well. But the whole business of, do any of those three statements mean anything to me in terms of the (19)60s? No. They are just talk. I prefer Robin Williams. Makes a lot more sense, besides it is funny. SM (01:02:55): Yeah. I would like you just to go in back to those days on that Berkeley campus. I am curious as I know that Mario Savio has passed away, but what has become as some of the other leaders of the movement? I know that Bettina is a professor at- DG (01:03:15): Well, most of them were academically oriented and continued in their academic direction. There were a few people who fell by the wayside. There were a few people like me, and a very few people like me, lives were dramatically, utterly, totally changed. Most people just afterwards got up and went right back to doing what they were doing. There were very few people, such as myself, who did not. I did not go back to school. I did not pursue my academic career. I became a printer and a graphic designer, and that would never have happened in one million years had I not been expelled. The vast majority of people who participated in free speech groups were academically oriented and continued to be academically oriented, went right on to do what they meant to do. Very, very few exceptions to that. SM (01:04:15): What is interesting is that Clark Kerr's name, he wrote a book that I had to read in graduate school, which is called the Uses of the university. DG (01:04:23): I have read it. SM (01:04:25): He talked all about the multi-versity, and students were challenging the corporate mentality. It has not changed at all today. DG (01:04:32): He wrote that before the free speech movement. SM (01:04:36): Yeah. I thought it was right on what he was saying, but the fifth- DG (01:04:41): Oh, he was treating university like a big factory. He basically said the product is knowledge and the students are what we turn out, and we have to run it like a factory. That is neither true or it is not. Does not make any difference. The university now is basically trying to run itself like a big, complicated, fancy, high-quality factory. That may or may not work. We will see. I do not know. University of California has very much formed by opinions of Clark Kerr. He had a very strong effect on administration. His career, and as did most of the bureaucrat's career by the free speech movement and the succeeding events, the anti-war movement, which they were powerless to prevent, and they were basically blamed for it. But the university is doing this fine thing and bigger than it ever was, and may become private. It may become corporate. It will keep on [inaudible] students talk. SM (01:05:59): Yeah. Ronald Regan obviously had a big role because- DG (01:06:02): Very, very big. Extremely big, and we basically him to be elected. Blame someone for that. You can blame the boomer generation for Ronald [inaudible] if you want to and be quite correct in doing so. SM (01:06:15): David, it has been an hour, and I know the last 20 minutes is basically responding to names of personalities in terms of period. You want to do that another time? DG (01:06:28): Let me take a quick look at my phone here and see how much power I have got left in it. Hang on. SM (01:06:31): Okay. DG (01:06:31): It says it is about 60 percent. Let us go through that pretty quickly. SM (01:06:40): Okay. I guess these can be just quick responses. They do not have to be any in depth, just gut level reactions when you hear these terms or personality. What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? DG (01:06:57): Nothing. Whatever. SM (01:06:58): Okay. Maya Lin, a very fortunate artist, quite beautiful. I like it, but I was not involved in the Vietnam [inaudible] or conflict. What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? DG (01:07:11): I know they were events in which people were killed and injured and that they had quite a catalyzing effect, but that is about it. SM (01:07:20): What does Watergate mean to you? DG (01:07:23): Corrupt politicians getting caught as usual. SM (01:07:27): Woodstock? DG (01:07:30): Was not there. SM (01:07:34): 1968, the entire year. DG (01:07:38): The moon. Also, pretty exciting things going on in France as I remember. SM (01:07:44): Okay. Of course, that was the year of the- DG (01:07:46): The country. SM (01:07:46): That was the year of the assassinations too. DG (01:07:50): Yeah, but that is always going on. SM (01:07:53): Counterculture. DG (01:07:56): Nice words, not very meaningful. SM (01:08:00): How about hippies and yippies? DG (01:08:03): Two disgusting people. The truly, they are people, basically the extremely irresponsible end of the 1960s. The drugs are the drug crowds. SM (01:08:21): Communes. DG (01:08:24): Never had anything to do with them really. Social experiments that did not work too well. SM (01:08:29): Students for Democratic Society. DG (01:08:33): Bunch of thinks. I have no love for them at all. SM (01:08:37): Then the Weathermen, were there? DG (01:08:40): Crazy, loony, not safe. SM (01:08:44): How about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War who took over the anti-war movement when SDS was gone? DG (01:08:51): I do not know much about it. SM (01:08:54): Okay. Then Tet. DG (01:08:54): I am sorry, Tet? SM (01:08:58): Tet. DG (01:08:58): T-E-T? SM (01:09:00): Yes. DG (01:09:01): You mean the Tet Offensive? SM (01:09:02): Yes. DG (01:09:03): Well, was it very important to them in the Vietnam conquest. SM (01:09:11): How about, I am going to give some names now. Jane Fonda. DG (01:09:15): She was really good in Barbarella. I liked that costume a lot. SM (01:09:23): Yeah. Tom Hayden. DG (01:09:27): No opinion either way. Some sort of politician if I remember. SM (01:09:31): Annie Hoffman. DG (01:09:34): The nut case. SM (01:09:35): Jerry Rubin. DG (01:09:37): Loudmouth nut case. SM (01:09:39): Both of them? Okay. How about Timothy Leary? DG (01:09:46): Very interesting guy. I think he got a little unhinged from taking too much LSD, but he was sure, right. One of those people, you got to say, "Wow, that guy is really smart. Too bad he took so much LSD." SM (01:10:01): Dr. Benjamin Spock. DG (01:10:04): Loved Dr. Spock. I actually met him once. He basically empowered a whole generation to think for themselves as opposed to having doctors tell him what to think. SM (01:10:17): Phillip and Daniel Berrigan. DG (01:10:20): Lawyer, was not he? SM (01:10:21): They were the Catholic priests. DG (01:10:24): Oh, that is right. Had nothing to do with Vietnam conflict. Very courageous probably. SM (01:10:30): Okay. Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. DG (01:10:35): Well, Nixon was a good president and a bad man. Spiro Agnew was a fool, a joke, a disaster, and got what was coming to him. SM (01:10:47): Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X. DG (01:10:51): Martin Luther King Jr. certainly tried hard and meant well. Very good orator. Malcolm X, he did not like white people very much. Pretty open about it. It does not seem to bother white people very much that he did not like them, so he seemed to get along perfectly fine. SM (01:11:09): Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. DG (01:11:14): I am so glad they did not get elected. SM (01:11:18): All right. LBJ and Robert McNamara. DG (01:11:22): Well, LBJ was the most competent second in command, was unfortunately thrust in position first in command, at which he did not do a very good job. He really tried hard and he meant well. Robert McNamara, I do not have any opinion about it. SM (01:11:40): How about the Black Panthers, which includes Bobby Seal, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Angela Davis, that group. DG (01:11:49): Dangerous opportunists. SM (01:11:52): Okay. Daniel Ellsberg. DG (01:11:56): New York Times reporter. What was he? SM (01:11:59): He was the Pentagon Papers. DG (01:12:01): That is right. Courageous, I suppose. SM (01:12:05): How about Ronald Reagan and Hubert Humphrey? DG (01:12:10): Well, Hubert Horatio Humphrey was, Humphrey was kind of a silly guy. Ronald Reagan was very-very popular, very much loved, basically catapulted into power as a reaction against all the things that were going on in 1960s. I cannot comment on his presidential policies. I do know that under his administration, like many that had gone before him, which quite nearly obliterated human race but I do not think that is particularly his fault. I will [inaudible] judgment. Check back in 50 years. I will let you know. SM (01:12:45): George Wallace. DG (01:12:48): Governor of Mississippi? SM (01:12:50): Mm-hmm. DG (01:12:56): The man who tried to make history stop just because he did not like it. SM (01:13:02): Barry Goldwater. DG (01:13:04): Would have been an awfully good president. I would like to run history back again and try him. Be really different. SM (01:13:13): The Equal Rights Amendment that in the end failed. DG (01:13:16): The ERA? SM (01:13:19): Yes. DG (01:13:19): Well, it just shows up [inaudible] politician. SM (01:13:26): How about the Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, some of the, Shirley Chisholm, the female leaders of the Women's movement. DG (01:13:35): The female spokesperson. SM (01:13:37): Yes. DG (01:13:38): There is a big difference between the leader and spokes. SM (01:13:41): I think Betty Friedan was a leader. DG (01:13:43): Well, maybe. But I would say they basically articulated what a lot of people could not articulate themselves as well, and they spoke for a whole huge generation of women who had basically been getting a pretty raw deal, and for the most part still are. SM (01:14:01): What do you think of Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter? DG (01:14:09): Jimmy Carter was a great, or I should say is a great fool. I do not know. Gerald Ford, I would have no particular opinion about him. SM (01:14:16): Of course, you have already talked about Ronald Reagan. How about George Bush Sr. who said the Vietnam syndrome is over, and Ronald Reagan, of course, he said that we were back from where we were before the boomers. DG (01:14:32): You have to remember my opinion on politicians are not high. SM (01:14:35): Yeah. Right. The final two of individuals here are Bill Clinton and George Bush, the last president. When I have asked people do who they are really define who the boomers are, I get amazing responses. That they really are symbols of the boomer generation. I do not know what your thoughts are on Bill Clinton and George Bush, but. DG (01:15:05): Well, my opinion of politicians is not enhanced by George Bush. The Clinton Administration basically continued policies and created policies that have come home to roost now. Seemed like a really good idea to do all the things that went on during his administration, but now everything's totally fallen apart. I am not going to blame them for it. Politicians are necessary. They are necessary for society, and ours is our democracy has worked pretty darn well, thank you. I am not going to complain too much, I guess, but I do not like politicians and I do not like what they do. I think it is a waste of time and money, but I can think of a whole lot worse systems, so I am not really complaining. Our current president is trying hard and doing the best he can. It turns into a horrible mess the way it always does, but I like the democratic process. I do not think we get any worse leaders than anybody else. SM (01:16:17): How about John Dean? DG (01:16:19): Who? SM (01:16:19): John Dean. DG (01:16:19): [inaudible] SM (01:16:23): Pardon? DG (01:16:24): You are going to ask me about politicians, I am going to tell you I do not like them. SM (01:16:26): Oh, okay. DG (01:16:28): Leave the politicians off your list. SM (01:16:30): Very good, very good. When the best books are written, which is probably after we are gone, the best books are often written on any subject are 50 years after an event. What do you think the history books will say about the boomer generation once? DG (01:16:47): Having Written one, very long one myself, I can tell you what they think. They think it was swell. I had a great time myself. Have some other person who did not write a book or some other person [inaudible] different book. SM (01:17:03): Yeah, your book I thought was great. I read it a long time ago. And of course when we brought you to Westchester, it was great because you sat in front of student government, if you remember. DG (01:17:11): I do, and quite clearly. SM (01:17:14): That was a historic night. You do not realize. That was the very first night that Dr. Oliaro was there. He was the new vice president who had just come in from- DG (01:17:23): I remember meeting him. SM (01:17:24): Yeah-yeah. Now he is up at Fresno State. DG (01:17:28): Oh really? SM (01:17:28): Yeah, he is pretty big up there. He is the Vice President of Student Affairs at Fresno State. He was very impressed with you because he- DG (01:17:37): Really? SM (01:17:37): Yeah. Because he sat in the back. He did not expect it in a student government meeting, and of course I only had one other person ever came in there. But what was the overall reaction of your book and the students that you spoke to? DG (01:17:54): The book has not sold terribly well, but it is sold steadily. I suppose I should not complain. It is very long. One of the things about my book is that everyone else who writes a book has to refer to my book because my book has got everything in it. The manner in which I wrote is direct quotes from historical characters that were there at the time. You are pretty much going to have to accept that. There is very little about the facts that you could disagree with. My interpretation for the facts, of course are my own, but it is very hard to argue with an eyewitness account. You might not like what the person says, you might say the person had a myopic view because they were after all right in the middle of it, but you cannot say that it did not happen the way they said. At least the way they said is what they believed. You perhaps have read the book by Bernal Díaz called The Conquest of New Spain, where he has a foot soldier under Cortes. He writes the book about being a foot soldier under Cortes and taking over him Mesoamerica. You have to say, "Well, he was a soldier." I mean, his father was not even literate, but he was there. He was there with Cortes. SM (01:19:17): Right. DG (01:19:17): Fought, and cannot say, "Well, your interpretation of it is flawed and your attitude towards the Native Americans is certainly unpleasant. You were not a very nice man. You did hard things," but on the other hand, you have to say, "Well, you were there. You are telling me what you believe happened, I really got to pay attention to that." that is what my book did. You might like it, you might not, but you have to accept that I was there. SM (01:19:51): Yes. Yeah. I remember reading and I was underlining things. I ruined my books sometimes. I underlined them. I have actually bought another one so it is not underlined, but I have to underline so that I can actually go back to your book. And even though it has been over 10 years since I read it, I can read those lines and I can come back and remember some of the things around it, and that is who I underline. I have done that for years. What do you think the lasting legacy of that free speech movement will be? DG (01:20:21): Oh, I do not know. SM (01:20:23): Particularly in higher education, which I think really loves to forget their past. DG (01:20:28): Well, I think that it is permanently changed the city of Berkeley. I think it has had a tremendous change on the university's population. Basically, people go to Berkeley on purpose. They know it is going to be an exciting place, and they do not go here on purpose too. The people that do not want to go to the University of California are the ones that go to [inaudible] They are the ones that are afraid of the University of California. The ones that go here know that it is going to be a really interesting place with a lot of interesting things going on. SM (01:21:10): Good. DG (01:21:10): Now, it has been quite a while, [inaudible] so on and so forth. But I would say people come here on purpose. They do not come here by accident. They do not come here because it is safe. They come here because it is going to be exciting, so it is a different kind of school. SM (01:21:31): Now. That is the kind of school that I like. Well, I guess that is it, David. This has been great. Now the one thing I do not have is a picture of you and I am coming out in the- DG (01:21:40): Okay. Yeah. Hey, could you send me a transcript of it? SM (01:21:44): Yes. I am doing this to everybody. I have got so many transcripts to be done, but once the transcript is there, we can edit and so forth. But I am going to need to get a picture of you. I remember Chrissy Keeler, I think her name is. She is from San Francisco. I am interviewing her next week. I may be out in the spring with my camera to drive around, take pictures of people that I have interviewed so I may pop over to your place, but otherwise I will need a picture eventually. Not right now, of you. DG (01:22:17): I can mail you one. SM (01:22:19): But I think I will be out in San Francisco in April, I think, and I might just drive over and say hi to you and take your picture. DG (01:22:25): All right. SM (01:22:26): You have a great day. Keep doing that great artwork. DG (01:22:29): I am working on it. SM (01:22:31): Yep. DG (01:22:31): Right. Thanks. Have a great day. Bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Lance Goines Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Goines, David Lance, 1945- 2023 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Artists; Calligraphers; Typographers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Goines, David Lance, 1945--Interviews Description An account of the resource David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for <em>A Constructed Roman Alphabet</em>.<br /><span><br />David Lance Goines died in Berkeley, California, on February 19, 2023, at the age of 77.</span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.104 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 82:41 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/88a913ccb718a80a9ede840c08f9945a.jpg acf346343ddf1e357bf5da242b1e4870 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/341fa181950f479bd5d375a71c6c7b05.mp3 1e2549c1df3266813f6db1325e757378 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-08-15 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David B. Mixner Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;David Mixner is a civil rights activist, HIV/AIDS advocate, and best-selling author. Mixner is the author of the memoir Stranger Among Friends, as well as Brave Journeys: Profiles in Gay and Lesbian Courage and At Home with Myself: Stories from the Hills of Turkey Hollow. He is well known as a fearless advocate for LGBT equality and other civil rights.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6531,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">David Mixner is a civil rights activist, HIV/AIDS advocate, and best-selling author. Mixner is the author of the memoir <em>Stranger Among Friends</em>, as well as <em>Brave Journeys: Profiles in Gay and Lesbian Courage</em> and <em>At Home with Myself: Stories from the Hills of Turkey Hollow</em>. He is well known as a fearless advocate for LGBT equality and other civil rights.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Civil rights movement; Vietnam War; John Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Cold War; Cuban Missile Crisis; Berkeley Free Speech Movement; Women's Movement; Gay Liberation Movement; Jackson State; Kent State; LGBT.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14275305}}">Civil rights movement; Vietnam War; John Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Cold War; Cuban Missile Crisis; Berkeley Free Speech Movement; Women's Movement; Gay Liberation Movement; Jackson State; Kent State; LGBT.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 80:57 Subject LCSH Civil rights workers; AIDS activists; Mixner, David B.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Mixner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mixner, David B. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights workers; AIDS activists; Mixner, David B.--Interviews Description An account of the resource David Mixner is a civil rights activist, HIV/AIDS advocate, and best-selling author. Mixner is the author of the memoir <em>Stranger Among Friends</em>, as well as <em>Brave Journeys: Profiles in Gay and Lesbian Courage</em> and <em>At Home with Myself: Stories from the Hills of Turkey Hollow</em>. He is well known as a fearless advocate for LGBT equality and other civil rights. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-15 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.88 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 80:57 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/eaf304999555fcdf1079fa934f829ad8.jpg 7cd7ae6fe2625d7ac73826a19b2cf680 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5e528dafd9a426e19ef47dd8fff116c4.mp3 89c3524d32d84328be162dadd5b3c8bd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Underhill Date of Interview 2010-09-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 172:51 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;David Underhill is a journalist, writer and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States, and was schooled mainly in eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the Harvard Crimson. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the Southern Courier, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:7043,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,6710886],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">David Underhill is a journalist, writer, and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States and was schooled mainly in the eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the <em>Harvard Crimson</em>. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the <em>Southern Courier</em>, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Harvard University; Student from Democratic Society(SDS); Todd Gitlin; Cuban Missile Crisis; Columbia University; Red Diaper Babies; Communist Manifesto; Baby boom generation; Activism&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Harvard University; Students for a Democratic Society (SDS); Todd Gitlin; Cuban Missile Crisis; Columbia University; Red Diaper Babies; Communist Manifesto; Baby boom generation; Activism</span> Subject LCSH Journalists; Authors, American--20th century; Political activists--United States; Underhill, David--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: David Underhill Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 27 September 2010 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:04): Testing, one, two. Well David, thank you very much. It has been a while getting ahold of you, and that is my fault. But I finally did, and first question I want to ask is, how did you become who you are? Talk a little about your early years, where you grew up, your high school, before you went off to, I guess Columbia. Maybe some of the role models, the people who inspired you. And what led you to Columbia? DU (00:38): Well, I was born in San Francisco. SM (00:41): Okay, speak up. DU (00:42): I was born in San Francisco. But [inaudible 00:46] at the time, I never really lived, I have no recollection of it. I grew up mostly in Boise, Idaho. [inaudible 01:00]. Graduated, went to college, not at Columbia, but at Harvard. Because somehow, I got the idea that Harvard was the place where they had taken most of the world's knowledge captive and were holding it in the library. SM (01:23): Oh, wow. DU (01:23): So, I wanted to go liberate it. To take possession of it, I wanted− SM (01:29): What years were those? DU (01:34): (19)50s, early (1960s. So, I went from teenager in a small town in Idaho, [inaudible 01:42] this idea, I do not know. But I did, from the earliest age that I can remember, that was what I wanted to do. Once I got over the idea that I wanted to go to [inaudible 01:57]. SM (01:59): Speak up a little bit louder, too. Somehow, it is not coming through very good. DU (02:03): Once I recovered from the idea that I wanted to go to the state university nearby and be a football hero. SM (02:09): Mm-hmm? DU (02:11): Then I was determined, for some reason, to go to Harvard. That was what I did. SM (02:16): You must have done well in school. DU (02:19): I worked hard and found schoolwork congenial. So yes, I did. By the academic time and place, yes. And Harvard was a new and astonishing experience. I am glad I did it, and it launched me on the quest for the rest of my life. People used to ask me, "What do you do?" And my people answer was, "I read the newspaper." And that was what I did. Try to keep myself informed in the hopes of understanding why the world worked the way it is. But I had to stop saying that because nobody believed it. But it was true. I graduated from Harvard, I went off and did other things here and there, and then found myself back at Columbia for a while. But always [inaudible 03:31] earning a living. [inaudible 03:35] quest for understanding whatever I could find. SM (03:43): What was the gap between your years at Harvard and Columbia? DU (03:50): At Harvard I was on the editorial board of the student daily newspaper, Harvard Crimson it is called. SM (03:59): Mm- hmm. DU (04:03): And people at The Crimson mostly, and a few others, concocted the idea to start a newspaper. Give coverage to the then infant Civil Rights Movement. Which received almost no local coverage other than hostile. SM (04:22): Mm-hmm. DU (04:29): And just [inaudible 04:29] national coverage, [inaudible 04:32] Harvard Crimson and others. [inaudible 04:37]. Reported in Montgomery, Alabama, the Southern Courier. SM (04:43): David? DU (04:43): Yeah. SM (04:46): Speak up a little louder. Somehow it is cutting out. Keep getting- DU (04:50): Started a weekly newspaper called the Southern Courier. Reported in Montgomery to cover the civil rights. Not slavishly, but since then it was not a house organ, it was a regular newspaper, but its purpose was to give [inaudible 05:12] fair balanced coverage of the civil rights [inaudible 05:20]. The local press was not doing. And I went from connection with The Crimson Harvard to working on that weekly paper. Which brought me to Mobile, where I am now. I was the reporter and photographer and circulation manager and distributor and [inaudible 00:05:45] for that paper in Mobile. That was really by accident, needed somebody to go to this city and did not have anybody here. So, armed with a couple [inaudible 00:05:56] phone numbers I was sent off into the lower Alabama wilderness to create a Mobile outpost there. SM (06:08): What year was that? DU (06:08): That was in 1964, (19)65. SM (06:09): Wow. That was right in the heyday. DU (06:14): It was. There were demonstrations and deaths and marches and violence. Yes. SM (06:19): Did you ever fear, as a new writer down south, coming from the north, for your life? DU (06:25): Oh yes. SM (06:27): Explain that feeling. DU (06:29): Yes. It was not just a feeling. There was one time, you may remember James Meredith and his attempt to integrate the University of Mississippi. At one point was trying to march from the Mississippi border with Tennessee down to Jackson and got shot along the highway. SM (06:48): Yes, I remember that. DU (06:49): And that provoked the march to carry on from where he was shot to the rest of the way to Jackson. I went from Mobile over there to cover that for the paper, and I was a participant marching, newspaper reporter, when I got back here after being gone for several days some of the neighbors in the inner-city area where I lived, Mobile, came running up to me as soon as I drove up and told me what had happened in my absence. Which was that somebody with the rifle who did not belong in that neighborhood had been spotted on the roof of an old, abandoned building right across the street from my driveway. And they had called the law who came and looked up there and said, "We do not see nobody." And went away. And the neighbors kept insisting, the law came back. Finally, they made [inaudible 07:47] the fire department came with their ladders, and they climbed up there and brought down a guy with the rifle, just across the street. SM (07:58): And he was there to kill you? DU (07:59): Yes. SM (08:00): Unbelievable. DU (08:00): And put him in a police car and drove him away. And this is what the neighbors told me when I got back. So, I went to see the police chief the next day, who I had already known, as a reporter from other stories. Told him what had happened, and he looked puzzled that no such thing had ever happened that he had ever heard of. He would certainly know if that occurred. I said, well, if a man was put in a police car and taken away, that sounds like an arrest. Surely there would be a record of an arrest and that would be a public document, would not it? He did not think any such thing had happened. SM (08:49): Oh, so it was just like a lot of things in the south at that time. DU (08:51): Oh, yes. SM (08:51): They just let him go. DU (08:53): Or were implicated in it. SM (08:55): Oh, wow. DU (08:58): But I let him know I would pursue this. And either find out who that was and what they had done with him or reveal that the police department was somehow in cahoots. Somebody who was clearly on an assassination. So, then the police chief, he went away and came back a little while later with a scribbled note on the scrap paper with somebody's name and address saying, this was the man they took down from the roof and took away in a police car. [inaudible 09:32]. SM (09:34): Was he a white man or a black man? DU (09:36): White man. SM (09:39): Unbelievable. DU (09:40): Well, I presume. I mean I just curiously drove by the address. Which was out in the new white suburban area. SM (09:48): Now, did you go back to Columbia after you were down south for a while working on the paper? DU (09:53): I did not go back to Columbia; I had never been at Columbia. But I was here working on the paper and having experiences like that for over a year. About a year and a half, then I went, just in time for the uproar of the (19)60s. (19)66 at Columbia, I was a graduate student then. And I got to know and lingered on the fringes of the campus, The Students for a Democratic Society. Some of those [inaudible 10:41]. I had been familiar with all of that from the start, because it began largely among friends of mine and roommates at Harvard, named Gitlin. SM (10:56): Oh, Todd Gitlin? DU (10:57): Yeah. SM (10:57): Oh yeah, he is one of those really top professors in America today in communications. DU (11:02): That is right, that is right. He is what, sociology journalism professor at Columbia now, last I- SM (11:11): Yes, he is. Mm-hmm. DU (11:13): He was a close friend of mine and a semi-roommate at Harvard. At the time he was one of the founders of SDS. SM (11:25): Golly. Huh. DU (11:27): And actually, there was one time during our [inaudible 11:29] when both of us had interned, we were roommates in Washington. So, I was− SM (11:39): Speak up again, David. DU (11:41): I was closely acquainted with all of those folks at the founding of SDS. One of the early (19)60s movement, and because of that I gravitated towards similar activities at Columbia. I probably should mention to you that Gitlin and I and a few others created an anti-war. Actually, it was an anti-bomb organization at Harvard called Tocsin. SM (12:16): T-O-S-I-N? DU (12:20): T-O-C-S-I-N. SM (12:22): Okay. DU (12:28): It is a French word. Their creation not mine, a French word for some kind of community warning bell, a tocsin. For some reason they thought that was appropriate. Anti-bomb organization that created on campus. And had some little protests against, like the Cuban Missile Crisis and the near obliteration− SM (12:53): Oh yes, (19)62. DU (13:00): So that fright, and at one point had some sort of poster art manifestation on the streets of DC in front of the White House, as I recall. But it was mostly a campus educational anti-nuclear organization. SM (13:18): Mm-hmm, now you were- [inaudible 13:24]. DU (13:28): That then led to anti-war. The Vietnam war was just beginning then to escalate the American participation in it. SM (13:36): Mm-hmm. DU (13:38): [inaudible 13:38] but to my knowledge some new people in this Tocsin organization arranged the first anti-Vietnam war demonstration in America. Which was in Cambridge, it would have been spring of (19)64. There were about 10 or a dozen people that came to a meeting the night before. Something had just happened in Vietnam that revealed to the public [inaudible 14:08]. SM (14:07): Was that the Gulf of Tonkin resolution? DU (14:13): This was slightly before that. SM (14:15): Okay. DU (14:16): Something had happened that revealed burgeoning American entanglement in the [inaudible 14:25]. And about 10 or a dozen of us had a meeting to try to decide what to do. We decided we were going to have a little demonstration and pass out leaflets in Harvard Square the next day. It was one of my formative experiences. Because when I got there with the leaflets to pass out, instead of a dozen of us there was three of us conducting this anti-war demonstration. We did what we said we were going to do, and we were truly cursed at and spat at, and became a kind of urban myth later the returning solders were spit on, and questionable whether that actually happened. We were really cursed and spat at in Harvard Square. SM (15:14): By students? DU (15:14): Students, people coming in, citizens, people coming in and out of subway stations. Just everybody [inaudible 15:20] the response was of viciously hostile. Because we were openly opposing American policy [inaudible 15:32] commie enemy. SM (15:34): Wow. DU (15:36): To my knowledge that was the first demonstration in specific against the war in Vietnam. SM (15:39): Was that your very first experience ever, even as a high school student of standing up for something that you thought was unjust? DU (15:58): Oh no. That was the first time I went out and exposed in a public place and encounter an openly hostile reaction. Which was [inaudible 16:20] foretaste for what was to come. SM (16:22): Oh yeah. DU (16:25): Later in Alabama and later than that at Columbia. But that grew directly out of that Tocsin [inaudible 16:35] with Gitlin and those folk. [inaudible 16:44] but I did a few- SM (16:45): Keep that voice up, David. DU (16:47): I did a few things like that in high school. Actually, to my knowledge I am the only person who ever defeated Fidel Castro in an election. SM (17:04): Oh? Explain that. Because that we are talking (19)61ish, or− DU (17:04): Yeah, (19)59, (19)60, thereabouts. I was running for student body president of my high school. And nobody chose to run against me. But to keep the election from being a bore we decided to run Fidel Castro against me. And we got a− Hello? SM (17:33): Yeah, I am here. I am hearing it. DU (17:36): We somehow got some old− I am hearing an echo. What is that coming from? SM (17:42): I do not know, I do not have an echo here, but− DU (17:44): All right, then I will just keep talking. SM (17:45): Yeah. DU (17:46): Strange echo. So, we got some old army looking uniforms, some arrayed rifles from the ROTC unit that came trooping into the high school like Castro's revolutionaries campaigning for him to be student body president. SM (18:07): I hope you won− DU (18:10): It was close. But I won. SM (18:13): I hate to think what would have happened if he had won. DU (18:20): We unfurled Castro banners in the school auditorium during the election assembly and all sorts of stuff like that. SM (18:27): Well, how did the principal respond? DU (18:31): Well, we did not clear it with the principal in advance, of course. We just− But who knows what would prompt somebody to do something like that? But I did. And then I had a lot of help. But it was pretty much my project to run Fidel Castro against me. SM (18:57): Any other experiences in high school where you had to stand up for an issue? DU (19:03): There was a time at church where I decided, for whatever reason, that I was going to go around to all the other churches in town, including there was one synagogue in town, and there was one Buddhist church, because of the leftover Japanese when they [inaudible 19:32] from the West Coast, was still there. So, there was a Buddhist church in town, and there were Mormons and there were Catholics. So, I decided I would go around on my own ecumenical mission and visit each one of these congregations to teach myself what the other religions were about. And in the course of that− Also, there was a particular cute girl who I thought [inaudible 19:59] explorations to. And I thought she might be willing to go along. I think [inaudible 20:09]. And she did [inaudible 20:13]. But I got in, this was considered sort of cute. Maybe even appropriately educational, and I was not discouraged doing so by my own church or school or family until I went to a service at one black church that was in town and got to know some of the people there and decided, who knows why, that it would be a good idea to have a joint meeting between their high school Sunday school class and ours. And then the− you know what hit the fan. SM (21:10): Yeah, now, what was your church? DU (21:12): The Presbyterian church. SM (21:13): Okay. DU (21:14): [inaudible 21:14] and all my other strayings and inquiries were tolerated, but that one was not. And I will never forget, the preacher of the one black church, I do not even remember what denomination it was, I might not even have been aware of the denomination at the time, eventually made an embarrassing and regretful phone call to me regretting that he and his Sunday school class would not be able to come to the joint meeting with ours. I do not know what kind of pressure was put on him through what route, but these folks originally were receptive and willing and suddenly did not want to do it. And that never happened. SM (22:14): Wow. And no one ever told you to not pursue it? DU (22:21): I mean I knew from the reactions that I was not supposed to pursue it. And I mean I was inclined to, but I knew from what my preacher had told me that the pursuit would be fruitless because they were not coming. SM (22:37): Mm-hmm. Wow. Going back to that experience in Harvard Square where you said about 12 of you, was Todd Gitlin one of them too? DU (22:50): No, I think he was already graduated [inaudible 22:52]. SM (22:54): But your standathon, was that a onetime experience or did you keep going to Harvard Square? I have been up there twice this summer, so I know that area very well and− DU (23:05): It was a onetime experience going there to hand out leaflets to try to talk to people about the war that was brewing that America was getting entangled in. That was a onetime experience. SM (23:14): Mm-hmm. DU (23:17): The meeting that evening before to arrange this with about 10 or dozen people present, that was a onetime experience. SM (23:23): Right. DU (23:24): But there had been many such meetings of related issues, I think throughout, of that anti-war, anti-nuclear bomb organization. That was the connection. But the leafletting of Vietnam in Harvard Square, [inaudible 23:46] but we were deliberately trying to [inaudible 23:54]. SM (23:54): What was the− DU (23:54): That was a onetime experience. SM (23:54): What was the town you grew up, where your high school was? DU (23:56): Boise. SM (23:57): What? DU (23:58): Boise. SM (23:58): Oh, Boise, Idaho. DU (23:59): Yeah. SM (24:00): Okay. And were you at Columbia in (19)69 when Mark Rudd and all those students took over? DU (24:06): Oh yeah, I was right in the thick of all of that. SM (24:10): Yeah. DU (24:11): [inaudible 24:11]. Yes. SM (24:14): That is one of the top five protests of the entire (19)60s. Of course, Kent State maybe believe is number one. But what was it about that experience? What did you learn from that experience, and what did the university learn from it? DU (24:28): Well− SM (24:29): And speak up. DU (24:45): Oh lord. I mean I learned that even when you have what looked like a mass movement behind you it was almost impossible to make any headway against an entrenched system. SM (25:03): Mm-hmm. DU (25:06): When we shut down− SM (25:07): Are you getting another call? DU (25:10): I am trying to make it go away. We shut down the university. You know all of this. SM (25:18): Yeah, I know it all, people who are going to be reading this though are going to hear this firsthand from the participants. DU (25:27): And we raised questions that had to be addressed about the university's cohabitation with the imperial war security state. And people were paying attention, willing to listen and address issues. They shut down the school. Tried to alter that cohabitation. And in the end, we did not. Columbia reverted, along with the rest of the academic establishments to the same old ways. It is sobering and sometimes if you think about it, discouraging. Almost every day it occurs to me that despite all we did at that time, and everything that we pointed out, which the events proved true, still look at the news today and the same kind of thing is happening. SM (00:26:47): Yes. DU (26:50): On the opposite side of the road, as if we had done nothing. SM (26:54): You raise a great point, David. I have been saying the same thing for years, that when they try to look at the free speech movement at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65, I love the way the media tries to portray it as an isolated incident in the early (19)60s somewhat separate from the anti-war movement in the later (19)60s. When it was all about Mario Savio and the students had had enough with the university and the fact that they felt, as students, that they wanted a university of ideas, not a university that was run by a corporate takeover, and corporate interests. DU (27:31): Yes. SM (27:31): And that was what it was all about, and Clark Kerr talked about the knowledge factory that the students were upset with, being just− You are right, and that was happening at Columbia too. And what we are seeing today, it is the same thing again. DU (27:52): And those urges, and those organized uprisings reinforced each other. The people from the campus began the Vietnam protests overlap a lot with those who showed up as activists in the Civil Rights Movement. Which then overlap a lot, began with, those who enlarged the anti-war movement to the point where it finally made that war stop. So, it did not make the imperial impulse stop, but it makes that particular manifestation stop. All of those things reinforced each other, created a condition of concern and recognized mutual [inaudible 28:57] over from one effort to another. That [inaudible 29:02] it feels even more lonely and futile to try to mount some kind of public awareness campaign and resistance now than it did then. Because you do not have that [inaudible 29:24] of others of similar motive, dedication, around you everywhere, like we did then. SM (29:33): Yeah, it also inspired all the other movements, the Women's Movement, and the Gay and Lesbian Movement, and the Environmental Movement, and the Native American Movement, Chicano Movement, they were all linked together in different ways. DU (29:52): I am glad you brought the American− SM (29:54): And please speak up again. DU (29:55): I am glad you mentioned the Native American, because early in, it came to be called, the uprising at Columbia, there was a steering committee, include Rudd and me and some of the folks who later blew themselves up in that [inaudible 30:20] townhouse. SM (30:22): Oh yeah. DU (30:23): [inaudible 30:23] those. SM (30:23): Mm-hmm. DU (30:25): We were all together on a steering committee, and in those steering committee meetings I brought up the Indian question. They were not called Native Americans then. Because [inaudible 30:37] the simmerings of what came, the Rosebud Sioux Rebellion and some others. And I wanted to make an explicit linkage with those folks and make common cause with them. Which was I believe the first incredulous mockery by Rudd and those folks, they thought it sounded like something that was in a Wild West movie? SM (31:08): Right? DU (31:08): They later came to recognize the importance, but it was a lonely issue to raise at first. But again, to my knowledge, the discussion about that at the Columbia steering committee− did not want to call it the [inaudible 31:31] committee, that sounds too Red Commie. But the discussions about that issue were, to my knowledge, first of an attempt to link those struggles, and it is commonplace now. But the beginnings of it were instances like that. SM (31:51): Right. DU (31:55): One other little vignette to illustrate [inaudible 31:59]. At Harvard when I was there was also Henry Kissinger. And he was not yet− You could tell he was on his way to being unofficially, he was [inaudible 32:21] under Secretary of State Rockefeller then, touring the world on their behalf. And he would disappear from class for spreads of time and then reappear having been to India or wherever else, pursuing what [inaudible 32:38]. But he was saying it even then that [inaudible 32:41]. At one point sociologist David Riesman wrote [inaudible 32:49]. SM (32:48): The Lonely Crowd. DU (32:52): Yes, Riesman arranged, I do not know why, he arranged a small dinner meeting with Kissinger. Kissinger was just returning from one of these ventures to Vietnam. And Riesman was dubious indeed about the burgeoning war in Vietnam. But Kissinger was a personal friend and college of his, did not want to be too cross with him. But Riesman knew that I did not give a damn about the thing. And that I had deep doubts about all of this. So, he seated me next to Kissinger at this little dinner party. And I got into a conversation with Kissinger, [inaudible 33:40] what he had disclosed [inaudible 33:43]. SM (33:51): I did not know Henry was in the room with you. DU (33:52): [inaudible 33:52]. And I, being a young [inaudible 34:05] I did not give a damn, I just told Kissinger. SM (34:08): Speak up again, David, please. DU (34:10): I told Kissinger he was wrong and said that if he and the others he was in league with continue the way that they were going that they would, in drawing checks from the bank of American political credit and military strength until they had broken the bank and would discover that they had lost [inaudible 34:40]. And Kissinger got pissed at me for not deferring to his superior knowledge. And he said [inaudible 34:51] turned his back on me, and refused− (Part 1 OF 5 Ends) [35:04] DU (35:03): − turned his back on me and refused to speak to me anymore. SM (35:05): Oh my gosh. DU (35:07): And [inaudible 35:08]. SM (35:14): You succeeded. DU (35:18): [inaudible 35:18]. And then several years later when Kissinger was Secretary of State and I had been in a demonstration in DC. Actually, I think it was the time of Nixon's second Inauguration. That would have been− SM (35:42): (19)72. DU (35:42): Well, he was reelected, this would have been in January of (19)73. SM (35:44): Mm-hmm. DU (35:48): And we were in a big crowd, freezing on the street in front of the justice department in January of (19)73. And then the police decided they were going to go home, and it was cold, and they were tired. So, they charged, tear gas out of the mounted police on horses and motorcycles [inaudible 36:06] and broke up the crowd and chased us through the streets of DC. I remember thinking, 1973, this is the beginning of the 10th year since (19)64 at Harvard Square where there first had been a demonstration against the war. This is (19)73. SM (36:33): Wow. DU (36:34): I was thinking, this is the beginning of the 10th year since I first came out in this war. And it is still going on and here I am chased down the street, running from the cops throwing tear gas on this cold January night and going past the state department building. And up on the top floor I could see the light, figures of the silhouette behind the glass up, where I figured that must be the Secretary of State up there. That must be Henry looking down on me running through the streets getting chased by the cops and the tear gas [inaudible 37:14]. SM (37:11): Wow. DU (37:15): After all those years ago at that dinner party Riesman set up in Cambridge where events showed I was right. Henry was wrong. But I was down on the streets running from the cops and he was the Secretary of State. SM (37:36): It is a great story. DU (37:37): Yeah. SM (37:39): One of the questions I ask everyone too, when you were either in high school, senior high school, or college, what books were important to you? You were probably a very big reader. Say any time in the (19)60s or early (19)70s what books really influenced you? By anyone. DU (38:11): Well, the autobiography of Big Bill Haywood did. SM (38:21): Mm-hmm? DU (38:25): Because he had been tried for murder for blowing up the governor in Idaho, not convicted. [inaudible 38:31] was one of the most famous cases. SM (38:37): Mm-hmm. DU (38:38): Maybe I am telling you what you already know. And then it happened in the town where I grew up. I knew nothing of it, there were two people in my [inaudible 38:53] included the participation in the organizing activities of the Wobblie. So, they were the IWW [inaudible 39:06], they knew about Haywood, and his trial. Heard about [inaudible 39:11] finding Haywood's autobiography and reading it. And that made a big impression on me. Because [inaudible 39:29] life and a way of doing [inaudible 39:35] different from anything I was told. SM (39:38): What did he do? DU (39:40): He was a minor- SM (39:43): Mm-hmm. DU (39:50): [inaudible 39:50]. SM (39:50): I hate to say it, but please speak up. DU (39:50): One of the early organizers of the IWW. SM (39:51): Mm-hmm. DU (39:52): The Wobblies. SM (39:54): Yep. DU (39:55): That came mostly out of the lumber camps of out west. Idaho, Nevada, Utah. Joe Hill, those folks came from that area. And Haywood was [inaudible 40:09] by his trial [inaudible 40:13] governor was in Boise. SM (40:15): Mm-hmm. DU (40:17): So, from looking at Haywood's autobiography I got a glimpse of this way of positioning yourself in the world very different, anodized, standard, acceptable history that I got. That made an impression. DU (40:35): Also, the Diary's of the Lewis and Clark Expedition. Edited by a historian named Bernard DeVoto. Which made you, again, realize that everything you have been taught about pioneers struggling across the wilderness and populating this empty territory was an elaborate self-serving lie. And [inaudible 41:16] colonial theft of that [inaudible 41:19] from people who had inhabited it for millennia. SM (41:26): Native Americans. DU (41:27): Yeah. SM (41:27): Yeah. DU (41:28): All of that [inaudible 41:29] standard history, and to the extent that most folk just all they were [inaudible 41:36]. SM (41:36): What was the author's name again? DU (41:39): DeVoto. D-E-V-O-T-O. SM (41:41): First name? DU (41:42): Bernard. SM (41:42): Bernard DeVoto. Okay. DU (41:45): Historian of the era, but was editor of the journals of Lewis and Clark. SM (41:57): You honestly were born probably just prior to; the Boomers are classified as (19)46 to (19)64. DU (42:05): Yes, [inaudible 42:05] (19)64. SM (42:07): But we do not go with these guidelines here, and I have learned that by interviewing people. But when you look at the era that Boomers have been alive from 1946 to right now, 2010 and hopefully they will be alive 20 plus more years as they all approach senior citizen, although they hate that term. In your own words as a person who grew up in the (19)50s and then experienced all these things in the (19)60s and (19)70s and have been an activist through the (19)80s, (19)90s and the first 10 years of this century, how, in your own words, just a few words, how would you describe that period 1946 to 1960? In your own words. And again, please speak up. DU (42:56): For me that was a time of trying to learn the nature of the world beyond and contrary to the picture that was automatically presented to me. That is, it. SM (43:16): And what was the− DU (43:16): And I set out to learn what had been omitted or obscured or warped. And it was from a few things like I decided that I got a keyhole glimpse of something great big different on the other side that made me want to push through that crack and find out what was on the other side. That was what those years were about. SM (43:40): How about the years 19− DU (43:41): Trying to overcome the indoctrination that I suppose any society attempted to perform upon its youth to make them fit, carry on the legacy handed to them. And for me it did not sit very comfortably. So, I- [inaudible 44:03] out on my own. SM (44:04): How about that period (19)61 to 1970? DU (44:07): That was an uproar. Agitation, uncertainty, and there were many moments where you were not sure that you would be alive the next moment. Either because somebody with a rifle was on the roof across the street when you go into your driveway, or because some fool with his finger on a big red button was willing to summon Armageddon upon the entire Earth in order to make a macho point to his counterpart on the other side of the world. That is what the Cuban Missile Crisis [inaudible 44:51]. SM (44:53): How about 1971 to 1980? DU (44:59): Oh, what happened? Was there such a period? SM (45:05): I know there was disco in the second half− DU (45:10): To me, I know all of that was going on kind of as the downhill slope died of the (19)60s for the society at large, but for me it did not differ much from the time before. After I escaped Columbia, my education and formal progress were to be very badly spent by all of the uproar and uprisings at Columbia. I finally escaped from there with some kind of graduate degree but came back to Alabama and worked on a prison reform and community organizing project in the (19)70s. And then I was out in Washington state for a while, parts of my family were out there, and I got involved in some organized [inaudible 46:11] against a nuclear power plant financing boondoggle. I do not know if you are aware of that at all. SM (46:20): No. DU (46:21): It is called the Washington Public Power Supply. Formerly known as WOOPS. That sold multiple billions of dollars’ worth of bonds to unwary local community public utility districts and the like to finance this big, actually unnecessary and badly conceived nuclear power plant that almost [inaudible 46:49] but wasted billions of dollars of money [inaudible 46:52] never generated. But the bonds are still outstanding, all these hopeless public utility [inaudible 46:58] you have got to pay off the bonds, even though you have got no power coming. If you Google [inaudible 47:08]. SM (47:08): Right? DU (47:08): −spell that. [inaudible 47:11] there was a big uprising across the region, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, parts of Canada and Nevada against paying off these bonds for a derelict power plant that did not exist. I got very much involved in that, mostly around the city of, somewhere called Ellensburg, Washington state. Right between Seattle and Spokane. And there was a general public uprising against the bond boondoggle that I was in the thick of. I did that in the (19)70s. SM (48:01): How about the 1981 to 1990? DU (48:04): Well, in the mid (19)80s I came back to Alabama. I never [inaudible 48:08] got away from Alabama. And I had helped to create a new local community newspaper here in Mobile called the Harbinger. H-A-R-B-I-N-G-E-R. [inaudible 48:29] on the web if you care to look. [inaudible 48:38] from that I got working at a radio station. Because it was to do an audio version of this newspaper that was put on the radio. And I became acquainted with the button and [inaudible 48:53] pushing aspect of running a radio station. And spent around there for a while. Well, I needed a job, for one thing. I did a lot more for them than the value of what they paid me. So, it was a good arrangement for them. I infiltrated enough eventually I found myself as the host of an AM radio talk show in Mobile, Alabama. An unlikely outcome, but there I was. And it turned out, as I suspected it would, the sort of angle I wanted to approach local and world events from did have an interested audience within a place like this, reputedly derivative and backwards. But there was lots of [inaudible 49:43] jumping on the radio, like what I was offering. If you, by your own approach, gave them permission to hold and express such ideas then they would. And use of what contacts I could [inaudible 50:03] to try to get the prominent people from a national level on the radio here. Like I had Ralph Nader on for a while. He was scheduled to be there [inaudible 50:21] and stayed almost the whole hour and at the end when he finally tore himself away, he said, and he was not the only one who ever said this to me too, he said, "That is a really educated and an informed audience you have got." I guess he had not expected it. But that was the sort of audience you could attract. SM (50:43): Mm-hmm. DU (50:43): That gave me a chance to say, "Well, yes, of course. What did you expect? This is lower Alabama." SM (50:50): Did the Reagan era, what is your comments on that whole Reagan era? DU (50:54): Oh lord. SM (50:56): In a few words, you do not have to go in- Because a lot of people, when you think of the (19)80s, that is the (19)80s. DU (51:04): It was like just treading water, so you did not drown. That is all. SM (51:12): Mm-hmm. How about that period, (19)91 to 2000? Were you still with your radio station? That was the era of Clinton and President Bush one. DU (51:17): I mean that was mainly the time that I was at the radio station, in the (19)90s. SM (51:22): Mm-hmm. DU (51:25): And oh, then I got in some trouble with the people whose interest [inaudible 51:32] I had recruited, because they were all pro-Clinton and I was pissed at Clinton making such a mess of his presidency, and for actually for not minding the door, that was the way I put it. He was fooling around with Monica when he should have been minding his door. SM (51:50): Right? DU (51:52): Very unhappy with Clinton for that. And so, the Clintonites were unhappy with me. But I kept that outlook anyway. Then, when W and his [inaudible 52:09] came along I could honestly say that it was not partisanship pose what he was doing. And people had to believe it was not partisanship, [inaudible 52:23] but that brought the end of my radio career. [inaudible 52:30]. SM (52:31): Because the people were upset with your- [inaudible 52:33]. DU (52:34): End of the Iraq war if you were not pro-war and if you were not pro-Israel, you could not stay on the radio. It was just [inaudible 52:44]. SM (52:44): Wow. DU (52:48): And after years of running this talk show and doing much of the button and paper pushing to keep this AM station going, I was just merrily fired by the owner, who was very pro-Bush, pro-war, and pro-Zionist. SM (53:07): Wow. DU (53:09): Also, it did not help that I had broadcast back to Mobile from Radio Havana. Do you want to hear that story? SM (53:19): Yeah, I know you ran against Castro in (19)61, but I did not know you tried to go see him. Yeah. Go ahead and tell that story before we go on to another question. DU (53:33): Yeah, courtesy of a couple of quirky people, Mobile is officially the sister city of Havana. You know about the Sister City Organization, correct? SM (53:46): Yes, I do. DU (53:49): Mobile and Havana are officially sister cities and have been for many years. And one guys [inaudible 53:54] went to Havana or made arrangements [inaudible 53:59] go there and started poking around. And he was finding the long historical connection was true [inaudible 54:06] and Havana. But had to [inaudible 54:10] waterfront of both cities. For that reason and others, he said, "These ought to be sister cities." And he made it happen. So, there is a Mobile and Havana Sister City organization that has sponsored several trips back and forth between delegates from here and Cubans come to Mobile. Under W of the restrictions [inaudible 54:34] was almost bumped. In the late (19)90s under Clinton it was a little easier to travel and did that. There was no commercial flights or boats. You had to charter your own boat. Basically, did a little [inaudible 54:49] out in the ocean, Key West, bouncing along the ocean. [inaudible 54:53]. I went to Havana, about a dozen of us from Mobile. And at one point I decided that I was going to go to Radio Havana and try to make a connection there to broadcast back to the radio station in Mobile, and just do my radio talk show. So, I was lucky enough to meet the right couple of people and got into Radio Havana and arranged to use their studio and telephone link back and got the local people in their studio. And, had somebody running with a microphone and a switchback in Mobile and did my talk show while I was sitting in Havana at the headquarters of Radio Havana. And people in Mobile can call up and talk to me and these Cuban Commie folks I had in the studio. It was wonderful. And when I got back here after that the owner, I thought that I had done a remarkable thing. The owner was not happy that I had used his equipment to cover boy Commie Castro on the air to print propaganda [inaudible 56:16]. SM (56:17): Did President Bush make comments to him on this? DU (56:21): I do not know. SM (56:22): No? You do not know? DU (56:22): −how far the− SM (56:26): That is quite a story too. How important were The Beats? Did you read The Beats, and how important were they in your eyes in their writings about the influence they had on the Boomer generation? DU (56:38): Not very for me. SM (56:39): Right. DU (56:39): And I was aware of all of that, of course. SM (56:43): Many kinds of people believe they were the first nonconformists, and they were, and they did not care what people thought, and they were unique and different. But you do not think they were that important? DU (56:51): I was aware of that and influenced by it, sure. But it was not formative for me, I do not think. SM (58:01): Right. I guess I think I asked this next question− I have got so many questions here− DU (58:06): [inaudible 58:06] directly pertinent to add. I was at a meeting with all these Mark Rudd type on the campus of Columbia once and those folks, they got involved in a lot of intricate sectarian disputes with each other that derived from their personal and family connections and all sorts of [inaudible 58:29] dating back to the (19)30s and before. SM (58:32): Mm-hmm? DU (58:34): But I suppose you are aware of. SM (58:35): Yes, I am. DU (58:36): That I had no personal connection with and knew about only from reading his [inaudible 58:41]. But somebody in one of those meetings, when one of those cantankerous discussions were going on said casually and matter of factly, "We are all red diaper babies at this meeting. And that is why we are having fusses like this." And I looked at the one person who was in there with me that I knew was not a red diaper baby. Actually, she is the one who is name I gave you by email. SM (58:06): Oh yeah, I think I will contact her too. DU (58:10): Yeah, yeah. I looked at her and she looked at me, because we knew we were not red diaper. But to everybody else in there that was the norm. SM (58:23): Yeah- [inaudible 58:24]. DU (58:24): −I was a misfit [inaudible 58:27] always was a misfit. [inaudible 58:32] I know that much of formative motivation came from his church. SM (58:45): Mm-hmm? DU (58:47): That more than [inaudible 58:54] posturing of the (19)40s from these sectarian groups [inaudible 59:02]. I also should have mentioned, when I was just trying to explore how the world- [inaudible 59:11]. SM (59:11): Speak up again too, David. DU (59:12): −trying to find out how the world worked. And one of the things that experience told me were formative. And one of those was the Communist Manifesto. So, I started going into the public library in this little town in Idaho looking for materials, and I got educated. SM (59:29): Mm- hmm. DU (59:32): And at one point somebody, I do not know who, decided that this was bad for me and that I was no longer going to be able to check out material from the public library. SM (59:42): Unbelievable. DU (59:44): And so, when I tried to take back books, I was told no, and I had to go get something more normal and correct. I was not allowed to take back materials out of the library. So, I had to, of course, recruit friends to go in and get them for me. It just did not stop me. But there was an attempt to prevent me from those things. SM (01:00:08): Yeah, that is 1950s in America. Hold on one second here. You have got to bear with me in something, I have got to turn this light over here. [inaudible 01:00:15] all right. DU (01:00:15): But that [inaudible 01:00:25]. SM (01:00:29): Okay. You already talked about your experiences of standing up for that first time, several times, for an issue. And of course, whenever a person stands up for something they become vulnerable. That is why a lot of people are afraid to do it. As a follow-up to that question were there many times that this happened in the (19)70s, (19)80s, and (19)90s, and beyond, I think you have already mentioned it, you have already talked about that somewhat, your activism overall has been continuous and ongoing. DU (01:01:03): Yes. SM (01:01:04): Yeah. And in describing your career after 1970 how would you describe the David before 1970 and the David after? DU (01:01:19): The same character. SM (01:01:19): Mm-hmm? DU (01:01:22): The (19)70s were not a dividing line for me. Why would you pick that date? SM (01:01:28): Well, because I figured you were at Columbia in the (19)60s and you got your graduate degree and then once you get your degree people sometimes look at college as the protective years whereas the real world happens once you leave college. DU (01:01:46): No. SM (01:01:49): Is Mobile, Alabama- DU (01:01:50): I went back to doing much the same thing I had done before college and before graduate school, back in Mobile. [inaudible 01:01:59] this prison reform project. SM (01:02:00): You have been pretty consistent from the get-go. DU (01:02:05): For whatever reason, yes, it has been the main contour of my life. SM (01:02:11): In your own words define activism. DU (01:02:25): It is the refusal to accept− SM (01:02:28): And please speak up. DU (01:02:31): It is the refusal to accept the path that is laid out before you. SM (01:02:34): Mm-hmm. DU (01:02:36): That is, it. SM (01:02:38): One of the interesting things is how I got to know you first off is that essay that was in Marvin Serkan and Allan Wolf's book in 1970. I was a political science major, and I actually got that book in 1970 in my senior year, and I read it right before I graduated. It was coming out the summer and I got an advance copy through one of the professors. How did you essay end up in that book edited by these two great scholars? And what was the main thesis for your article? DU (01:03:17): You might be able to tell me better than that. I have not looked at that or thought about that in decades. SM (01:03:20): Oh, okay. So, you do not remember what the article was about? DU (01:03:26): If you still have the book the book it was the end of political science and how political science does or does not- [inaudible 01:03:33] the issues that it needs to address. SM (01:03:38): Yeah, well I read your article a long− Well, I re-read it. I read it a long time ago and then I re-read it for the interviews. So, I did not know if you had a purpose for writing it. I know you mentioned in the article some experiences at Columbia. How did you ever get in that book? DU (01:04:04): Well now that you asked me, I am trying to remember, and I do not. I knew those guys, and where I came across them or how I crossed paths with them I do not specifically recall. And they asked me to produce something for their book, so I did. But beyond that I have no specific recollection of how it came about. SM (01:04:41): Well, what I am going to have to do- DU (01:04:42): They approached me. I did not approach them. SM (01:04:48): Okay. I have not seen a lot of writing since you were in college. Explain your writing, and or teach it− Have you ever taught? Been a teacher at any community college or school? DU (01:05:05): Well, I was a teaching assistant in some classes at Columbia as a grad student. And I had a couple of brief teaching assignments at Long Island University in Brooklyn, one at Fordham in New York. SM (01:05:32): Oh yeah. DU (01:05:33): And one at William Patterson [inaudible 01:05:37] in New Jersey. SM (01:05:40): Oh yes, Mm-hmm. DU (01:05:40): I taught at all three of those places during or after the time that I was at Columbia. Those were the strange years when my contract was not renewed at William Patterson there was some sort of uprising on the campus. And [inaudible 01:06:05] student strike and marches and demonstrations and all. I do not know [inaudible 01:06:12]. SM (01:06:14): Well, they protested because you were not reinstated. DU (01:06:17): Yes, yes. SM (01:06:18): Oh, my golly. Do you think it was politically done? DU (01:06:24): Yes. SM (01:06:27): And why do you think they did that? DU (01:06:32): Well, I did not recite the party line. SM (01:06:42): Oh, and so that was it? It just did not become part of the in crowd, so to speak. DU (01:06:51): No, I did not. SM (01:06:51): And yet you were a very good teacher? DU (01:06:57): Well, opinions differ about that amongst students, as they are wont to do. But enough thought that I was. And enough they made a terrible fuss on the campus over that. But those were the years when any good cause would bring out a crowd on a campus. Late (19)60s, early (19)70s. SM (01:07:21): Right. DU (01:07:24): But it was pretty much a state university, a commuter college, largely blue-collar working class, Italian boys and the Mark Rudd and those folks, the downtown people that I dealt with said it was impossible to [inaudible 01:07:52] any kind of student rising on a campus like that, because those folks were the redneck regressives. SM (01:08:01): Oh. Or Richard Nixon's silent majority. DU (01:08:06): Yes. Yes, yes. SM (01:08:06): Yes. DU (01:08:07): And so, the downtown folks were astonished at what kind of uprising occurred on that campus. I was not. I expected it. I did not have any doubt. SM (01:08:22): What did you teach? DU (01:08:23): Political science. SM (01:08:27): Were they upset with the way you taught it? You encouraged students to protest, or− DU (01:08:33): All of the above. SM (01:08:35): It is interesting, David, in my junior year as a student at Binghamton my sociology professor got fired because he led a protest in downtown Binghamton next to the John Dickinson statue. I will never forget it. He was not asked to be back the next year. DU (01:08:53): Yes, this was that kind of thing. SM (01:08:56): Yeah, and then when I was in high school in the mid (19)60s a teacher was summarily fired because they called him a Communist. DU (01:09:07): Yes. SM (01:09:07): And that was a high school. DU (01:09:12): Yes. This was that sort of thing. SM (01:09:14): Yeah. When you think of the Boomer generation and the era of the (19)60s and (19)70s what is the first thing that comes to your mind? DU (01:09:31): There is too many [inaudible 01:09:35]. SM (01:09:33): And speak up, please. DU (01:09:33): Well, there is no first thing. There is a wealth of things that come to mind. SM (01:09:43): Just give me some examples. DU (01:09:44): If was a frightened and fruitful disorder. SM (01:09:55): Mm-hmm? DU (01:09:57): And there was a kind of careless bravery. PART 2 OF 5 ENDS [01:10:04] DU (01:10:03): There was a kind of careless bravery among people who thought what they thought were great wrongs that needed to be righted and maybe could not, but you had tried anyway. And so, they did. And often the effort came to nothing and sometimes great to grief. Still, there was a kind of careless bravery that people were willing to proceed anyway. SM (01:10:42): When you look at those (19)50s, the period when you were in Boise, I have always felt as a person who grew up in Cortland, New York in the (19)50s, that there were three qualities that most young people had until they went to junior high school and maybe went to senior high school in the mid (19)60s. And that is that they were weird to be very quiet. They were very naive. As someone said, "Well, are not all young people naive?" But I think they were especially naive. And there was a fear. The fear that many of them had was because in the early years, if they were young, they saw this man screaming on TV saying, "Are you, or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?" And subconsciously affecting people saying that, "I better not speak up, because if I speak up, I could be called a communist or afraid," and of course, living in the nuclear age and the threat of the bomb. And of course, television was very, basically I hardly ever saw a person of color. And Cowboys and Indians were a big thing. I mean, everything was hunky Dory. There were some serious shows like Edward R. Murrow and Dave Garroway, and Mike Wallace, but they were few and far between. And then naive is the TV helped the naivete. Just your thoughts, whether you think those are three characteristics that really− You agree? DU (01:12:22): Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, when I said careless bravery, that described the reaction to this fear. When you realized that instilled fear was preventing you from exploring the world you inhabited, then careless bravery would give you the courage to do so. Without that, you would succumb to the fear and accept the [inaudible 01:12:59] that had been prepared for you. SM (01:13:03): Yeah. Because we were talking about some of these books that were written in the (19)50s, The End of Ideology, by Daniel Bell, basically the Marxism is no longer a threat. It is dying, it is no longer important. Then you had the White Collar: [The American Middle Classes], by C. Wright Mills, The Organization Man, all these things that were− This is the way it was for the parents of the boomers. And boy, and lot of boomers did not want to have any part of that. What do you feel were some of the strengths and weaknesses of the boomer generation as you experienced via your own peers, knowing that no one can talk about 74 million boomers? But were there strengths and weaknesses within the group as you knew the boomers that you were with? Not only as an activist yourself, but as a teacher who taught in the classroom, some boomers as you were a graduate student. And you saw protests and, or many that did not go to protests. DU (01:14:17): Yeah. Well, that is always the majority. SM (01:14:22): Do you have any strengths or weaknesses? DU (01:14:33): I was impressed by the people who were willing to apply their own understanding what they observed and act on it best their knowledge, even if that conflicted of the truth that they had been taught. And the ones who were willing to do that were always available if you could find them and were always willing to take an unnecessary stand. But you had to look for them and you had to cultivate them. SM (01:15:35): Would you see any weakness? DU (01:15:39): I recognize even to the extent that you yourself possess those qualities, sometimes they would wane and falter, and you would be in danger of losing those qualities yourself. [inaudible 01:15:55] struggled [inaudible 01:15:57]. SM (01:15:58): Speak up again, David. DU (01:16:00): Was a constant struggle. So, alert and committed because the temptation is too otherwise great, and the rewards were great. But if you wanted to put yourself position where looking back, you could say, "If I had to do over, I would not do it different," then you had to take the approach I did. That is what I thought. I did not want to have to look back say, "I wish I had done this or that." [inaudible 01:16:36] greatly different. SM (01:16:40): It is like someone says, the philosopher says when you are on your deathbed and your life passes before you, you hope you− It is not all about the car, the money, the house. It was about what you have done with your life. DU (01:16:55): Yeah. SM (01:16:55): And I think what you are saying is that you are very comfortable with that. Do you like the term, "the boomer generation"? DU (01:17:02): I never use it. I never felt a part of it. I mean, I am not precisely demographically. I am born two years before, but also, I did not participate much in that a lifestyle encapsulated in that phrase. Boomer generation, the act of [inaudible 01:17:37] boomer generation was yuppies as much as anything else. SM (01:17:48): Oh yeah. That was a term in the (19)80s. DU (01:17:55): Never part of that, I hope. SM (01:17:58): Yeah. Lot of them thought they were the most unique generation in American history. Your thoughts on that? DU (01:18:05): No. SM (01:18:05): No? DU (01:18:09): No, everybody like think that about themselves, but no. I faced certain challenges and opportunities and just did what I thought my circumstances to my personality at that particular time and place required. At one point, I was something called the International Fellows program at Columbia, which was supposedly a select group of graduate students who were ushered off DC for meetings with important people in 50 agencies, and who have had the special seminars, some have dinners with important people back on the campus. International, it really was really a screening and recruiting of program for replacement part for the establishment. SM (01:19:30): Oh wow. DU (01:19:30): In the course that, I mean, it was if you were selected for this, I knew without being told that these opportunities were in front of you. You were being groomed for your place in the establishment. So, we went off to Washington and we were taken to the Pentagon [inaudible 01:19:59] and we were taken to the CIA. We were taken to the State Department, had a meeting with the Secretary of State Dean Rusk at time. SM (01:20:11): Wow. DU (01:20:19): About 10 of us, International Fellows program, one or two [inaudible 01:20:19]. And this was in, I do not know, (19)68, (19)69 there about when the country was in and up. Campus was [inaudible 01:20:30]. And it was a strange time of trouble and [inaudible 01:20:36]. And every day is filled, the horror as slaughter [inaudible 01:20:45] interpretated in your name and with your money on the far side world. And here you were inside the digital to the folks who were performing these things. SM (01:20:57): Wow. DU (01:21:04): Face-to-face with what are you going do? In these small group meetings, they were looking at on the table with the Secretary of State or with Peters with the CIA and the Pentagon. And I knew how you were supposed to behave. And I just would not, or could not, or did not at each of those places. So, the professor in charge of the program tried to avoid me. Could not forever ignore my hand once [inaudible 01:21:42]. And each of those places, I have made some kind of comment [inaudible 01:21:51]. SM (01:21:51): Speak up, too. DU (01:21:54): I made a comment or raised some kind of question, essentially, got our group thrown out of the Pentagon, CIA. And they [inaudible 01:22:06] brought those meetings to an end. SM (01:22:09): Just by your question? DU (01:22:11): Yes. SM (01:22:11): Oh my God. DU (01:22:15): Oh. And the meeting was quickly wrapped up. And the Secondary of State excused himself, and he was gone. SM (01:22:21): What were the questions? DU (01:22:24): Oh, I do not remember for sure. I mean, it was first designed to make them address things that they did not want to address. SM (01:22:33): Did you, by accidentally say, "Secretary warmonger, I mean, Secretary Rusk"? DU (01:22:40): That is not my [inaudible 01:22:42]. It was something oblique, but pointed and unmistakable. I do not remember for sure, but what I do remember one CIA. We were in a big room, not all that [inaudible 01:23:12]. Across one wall of this room was a big painting of China. Was done all up red China. The evil empire. And along one back wall of these one-way mirrors so you knew you were being watched, recorded. God, they were so creepy. Oh, when we get there, we walked down these long hallways where you pass doors and file cabinets that had combination locked rather than handles on the doors. And you had to sign in the beginning. And get one of these ID badges which not common at time [inaudible 01:23:53]. Got up the meeting at the big room to go to the men's room just around the corner, somebody appeared from somewhere and followed you there. That kind of setting. SM (01:24:04): Wow. DU (01:24:06): And in that setting, what they [inaudible 01:24:07]. And they had told us about all the wonderful things the CIA does and how abroad, and only in the gathering intelligence provides for the safety of the American system. And I told the story of something I had encountered in Alabama that gave the clear impression that somebody who worked for the CIA was spying on me and some of my companions and trying to sabotage our operations, contrary to what we had just been told by these people. Oh, and the whole room fell silent. And they brought that meeting to an end. And we went down this long hallway and everybody else in the group was shied away from, but I was a big, invisible bubble around. CIA, nobody wanted to be anywhere near me, all got on the bus and only half people [inaudible 01:25:12] out CIA compound. One of the guys [inaudible 01:25:15], "Yeah, thank you. I am [inaudible 01:25:17]." But until then, they did not know me. That was what happened CIA. SM (01:25:26): Wow. Who was the professor that ran that? DU (01:25:31): I do not- SM (01:25:31): Do not remember? And I think I know how you are going to respond to this, but how do you respond to conservative critics of the generation reared in the (19)50s and involved in the (19)60s and (19)70s activism that many of the problems in our society today center around the drug culture, the sexual freedom, the lack of respect for authority, challenging the system, rock and roll, long hair, clothes; counterculture, that kind of− And a lot of them, whether it be Newt Gingrich or George [Wilson's 01:26:07] commentaries, or even on Fox, you hear it all the time. There is Mike Huckabee. You hear it all the time, "back then," or "the (19)60s" and all this other stuff. What do you think of when you hear of that stuff? DU (01:26:22): Those are the fees of illegitimate authorities that cannot command respect by- SM (01:26:39): Speak up, and please speak up. DU (01:26:39): − Those are the fees of illegitimate authority that cannot command respect by deeds and [inaudible 01:26:48] vague or [inaudible 01:26:51] people to accepting their authority. Authority that worthy of respect does not have demand it, conferred without the request. Authority that does not deserve respect should not expect it. The way the American authority is played in their conduct [inaudible 01:27:24] abroad and in their treatment of fellow citizens, like in civil rights era showed them me as unworthy of respect. I did not respect them. Maybe on as individuals, maybe, but as legitimate authorities, no. And as for the rest of it, all those things you cited, [inaudible 01:27:56] whatever else you said, I never considered myself or hippy crowd- SM (01:28:04): Oh, the counterculture crowd. DU (01:28:06): − No. SM (01:28:07): Yeah. DU (01:28:08): But everybody in that era was affected by it. But I was never a participant. When I was at Woodstock, I went to Woodstock. SM (01:28:24): Wow. You were there? DU (01:28:25): Oh yeah. I mean, it was happening in the vicinity, and it was obviously a big event. And the governor of New York came on the radio and said, "This is a disaster. Do not go there." And when I heard that, I thought, "Well, damn. I got to go." SM (01:28:36): Were you there all four days? DU (01:28:43): No. For about two days. SM (01:28:45): You were there during the rains? DU (01:28:47): Oh yeah. Oh yeah. What I remember mostly is long before you see it and long before you could even hear it, you could smell it because of the rain, all the garbage and the [inaudible 01:29:00]. SM (01:29:00): Oh yeah. You remember the musicians you saw? DU (01:29:03): Well, you did not get close enough too much. It was so heard, smelled, could not get very close [inaudible 01:29:19] but I did not. SM (01:29:22): Yeah, you were not in that group that was sliding down on the mud and that- DU (01:29:27): Not purpose, I mean, some ways you slid in the mud, just could not help. SM (01:29:34): Some people's cars were parked five miles away. DU (01:29:37): Oh yeah. Mine, I mean, I was a long ways off and walk. I am glad I went, because I mean, it was a phenomenon. But I did not really feel like a participant. I was there. That was not my kind of scene. SM (01:30:00): Did you see a lot of spaced out people? DU (01:30:02): Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I did not like that. I did not participate in that. And I thought that was system's deliberate way of turning people off from activism. I agreed with the pretty much the old hard nose [inaudible 01:30:30] type about that. This was all bread and circuses and the opiate of the masses stuff designed to divert them from their [inaudible 01:30:44] ought to be their true cause. I was inclined to agree with that. SM (01:30:47): I know when I interviewed Richie Havens, Richie Havens said that it was a tremendous happening because they are finally listening to us. He said in 1969, referring to the people, the young people that were there and the musicians. "They are finally listening to us," and he thought that was a magic moment there. The media has played a huge role in− I can read my, I do not want my glasses here, in terms of "outlining and showing the extravagant and extremes over the norms of the 1960s." Knowing that 85 to 90 percent of the young people were not even involved in activism, I still feel they were subconsciously affected. The media is supposed to cover controversy and news, not create it with one-sided presentations. And I think what we are seeing, even with the 40th anniversary of Woodstock and all these anniversaries of Ken State, and the media seems to only go after the sensational. And what are your thoughts on the media? You were part of it for a while. DU (01:32:01): Oh yeah. I have been part of the media. And in my activist guises, I mean, I have relied on the media to publicize what I was doing, spread the word. And it took a mutually exploitive [inaudible 01:32:33] understood by everybody, all that you are providing them with a product, they sell of advertisers because they will [inaudible 01:32:50] interest and viewers and listeners. And in exchange, they provide you with some access for your ideas to people who otherwise would not counter. SM (01:33:08): And in your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? DU (01:33:17): (19)60s began in 1956 or there about. SM (01:33:27): About when? DU (01:33:28): In 1956. The (19)60s began with the civil rights movement, Brown versus Board of Education and the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Those then showed that the existing system was not ordained forever. And that change was actually possible. That began in the (19)50s. And me, that is, (19)60s have not stopped. SM (01:34:11): Is there a watershed moment? DU (01:34:17): The assassination Martin Luther King of- SM (01:34:24): (19)68. DU (01:34:25): − the course of stream of time. About watershed, yeah. SM (01:34:32): Yeah. That year, (19)68. Where were you when JFK was killed? Do you know the exact moment where you were? DU (01:34:40): Yeah, I was on the campus at Harvard. And actually I was, I did a little announcing work for the Harvard student radio station. Soon as I heard Kennedy had been shot, I went to station. And I was the one who announced over the WHRB, that was Harvard radio that Harvard graduate, John Kennedy, had died. SM (01:35:18): Wow. But did you have the TV on right there with Walter Cronkite or the other channels? DU (01:35:30): Oh, that probably. I do not remember for certain what all the connections, the technical connections were in the radio [inaudible 01:35:41]. I was in the Harvard yard when word first read Kennedy had been shot. SM (01:35:50): Wow. DU (01:35:50): And went immediately to the radio station. I was one of the regular announcers did mostly classical music program. And the assignment of announcing Kennedy's death over Harvard radio. SM (01:36:10): Did you take any calls or did you just announce it and leave? Or were-were you on for a while? DU (01:36:19): We interrupted regular programming course. SM (01:36:23): Okay. DU (01:36:25): News bulletin as they arrived, I was helping do that and news of his death [inaudible 01:36:35] and I was [inaudible 01:36:36] a somber moment. I had- SM (01:36:39): Now on that campus on those four days, it was a Friday through Monday. So obviously somber all over the country. Were you in your residence hall room− Or you were probably watching all the students on TV or all the events from the- DU (01:36:57): Radio station. SM (01:36:59): − Right. But when you left the radio station, did most of the students watch it on their television set? DU (01:37:05): Remember specifically. SM (01:37:07): Right. DU (01:37:07): Probably. But I do not recall. SM (01:37:11): Did the university do anything? DU (01:37:15): I was looking to see even Lee Harvey Oswald got shot, remember seeing that. SM (01:37:17): Yes, that was on Sunday. Wow. DU (01:37:21): That was when you first began to think, "Oh, there is something going on here beyond what is acknowledged." SM (01:37:33): When the students at Harvard knew that he had died, what were you talking with each other as students trying to figure out why and how could this happen in America? Or what? It only happens in other countries? DU (01:37:55): I remember all of those speculations. There is such absurd welter of recollections that it is impossible me to separate actually what I thought, learned at one time or another about that from thought or learned at another. Any speculation or data that you have come across connect with that is probably something that I do and added to my fund of uncertain knowledge, which I still have. I do not feel I understand who did better, how that happened. I certainly do not believe Harvey Oswald all by himself went out decided that he was going change history by killing the president. SM (01:38:58): You already defined the term activism and talked about it with respect to university campuses. And we were talking about the influence that student protest had on universities, whether it was lasting or whatever. But the question I am coming up with here is, are today's universities, after− I guess what I am going to say here is− I read my words here. Define volunteerism in your own words. You have already divine activism, (19)60s activism compared to today's volunteerism. What I am trying to say is that I feel that the universities today are afraid of the term activism because it brings back memories of that period in the (19)60s where there were disruptions and certainly disruption of classes, and certainly more student power, as Tom Hayden used to said, empowerment, not just power. And it is very nice to have volunteerism because volunteerism is required in fraternities and sororities. And this is what all students do, volunteer work, and probably over 90 percent of the students are doing it on all campuses. But there is a big difference in my opinion between activism, which is 24 hours a day, seven days a week mentality, and volunteerism, which is only a couple hours a week. Am I right in feeling that today's universities are afraid of activism on college campuses? Of course, they say volunteerism is their activism. DU (01:40:46): I cannot address that much in relation to universities because I do not have regular [inaudible 01:40:52] at a university. But around communities where I have lived, and I do. And to me, by volunteerism is free labor on behalf of system. And activism is a challenge system. SM (01:41:19): And are you saying that people do not like to be challenged? DU (01:41:25): Some do, some do not. I have done both. Just this morning before talking to you, I was had a big meeting convened by the governor of a commission to supposedly plan and arrange for the restoration of the oil rec Gulf coast. Even though I was [inaudible 01:41:50] by the very establishment business sort of commission that the governor put together with a few [inaudible 01:42:00] came environmentalists on board. But not the likes of me, but I went anyway and just appeared there and participated in the sense of an activist, rather than a volunteer. In the discussions of [inaudible 01:42:23] and raise some question, brought up some issues that I do not think would have been on the agenda at all, otherwise. That is what activists does. And then they all went to a catered lunch without me. I was not invited. SM (01:42:53): Well, obviously, is this Harvard reincarnation? DU (01:42:59): Sort of, yeah. SM (01:43:02): Well, that is good. Because you go with your own drummer, so to speak. Your thoughts on when the anti-war movement turned violent out of frustration? We all know the history of Students for Democratic Society. They did have a lot of respect. But when it split into the Weathermen, everything changed and SDS really died. We had the Black Panthers who were carrying guns on university campuses at Cornell− Well, students at Cornell were carrying guns, but Black Panthers were always saying that they needed guns to protect themselves from the police because police were being brutal every day. And you had the American Indian movement in 1973, and the violence at Wounded Knee. So you saw, and I know that in the Chicano community and the Young Bloods, they copied the Black Panthers. This is my thought: to me, this hurt all movements, and is why the neocons and conservatives write are legitimate in their attacks on the period itself, because they look at those things that were really negative, even amongst liberals. And your thoughts on when it went violent? DU (01:44:20): When I first heard [inaudible 01:44:25] others who became and then Bernardine Dohrn and those folks who became the Weathermen talking that way. I was in many meetings with most of those folks, one time or another, around Columbia in Cortland, New York. By the time they pick up the gun, they were carrying on in that fashion. It was hard for me keep from laughing because they were talking of harming themselves in order to carry out the revolution that they knew was just on the verge- PART 3 OF 5 ENDS [01:45:04] DU (01:45:03): To carry out the revolution that they knew was just on the verge of break out. And it was so ludicrous, mistaken understanding their place. It was tempting to laugh, and I could not because they were obviously so serious about it. SM (01:45:27): Please speak up again. DU (01:45:29): And they are obviously so serious about it. SM (01:45:31): Uh-huh [affirmative]. DU (01:45:31): And some of them, like Ted Gold who'd dead because of it. And I remember saying to them, in some of these meetings, if you think you need an armed cadre to carry out the revolution of his ripe, you do not need to be picking up the gun belt and going off weekend encampment to teach yourself how to shoot. I said, this whole country is armed. You need to recruit those people who have guns and know how to use them, to your side. If you try, without them to do this, you are going to be the losers. In short order and big time, they were. They did not want to recruit to their side of the proletarian task of who were armed and might be ready for revolution. They wanted to reside over a revolution that they directed. And they were nowhere close to having historical opportunity or the political organization to help them− It is baffling to me, that they could have been so hallucinatorily deranged about this, but they were. SM (01:47:03): We all know about the Weathermen, and interesting, Black Panther's always used− It is so confusing. Black Panthers said they were not a violent group, and they had guns only to protect themselves. And some would say, well look what happened to the killing of Fred Hampton in Chicago. "We had to protect ourselves or they will come and kill us all." DU (01:47:24): Right. SM (01:47:24): And then of course we had the COINTELPRO, which did terrible things, infiltrating organizations. And some people have even gone to the extreme of saying that the reason why the Weathermen went violent is because of infiltrators that were from the CIA who encouraged them to become violent so that they would become illegitimate. DU (01:47:44): I am sure some of that happened. SM (01:47:47): I just, you see you have got all this stuff here, but most people are against violence. Dr. King was nonviolent protest. Then you get the Stokely Carmichael types and then Malcolm's, by any means necessary. And I think Malcolm was believing in taking guns to protect oneself, not to kill people. But this is a very, it is very confusing. You have to look at it in its context. But would not you say that whenever there is violence, it creates a negative image for any group? DU (01:48:25): Malcolm said that it is almost a criminal act to tell somebody under assault, he should not defend himself. SM (01:48:35): Say that again. DU (01:48:36): Malcolm said, it is almost a criminal act, to teach somebody who is under assault, that he should not defend himself. SM (01:48:43): Mm-hmm [affirmative]. DU (01:48:45): And I was inclined to agree with that. Right? And I think people like him and the Black Panthers, for the most part, were defending themselves. And in case by Fred Hanson, not successfully. SM (01:49:05): What did you think of that scene at Cornell University in (19)69 of students with guns walking out of the union? What was that all about? DU (01:49:15): A new guy from Mobile. He went to Cornell with a pistol, tried to get the education that he thought he deserved. SM (01:49:33): He was in that group? DU (01:49:36): I do not think he was in that group, but he briefly went to Cornell. And he believed that Cornell intended not to provide him with education. And that the whole system was set up to provide him with an education. SM (01:49:52): Right. DU (01:49:52): That if he did not threaten violence, he was not going to get an education. SM (01:49:56): Wow. DU (01:50:05): That was− SM (01:50:05): This is a question that, took a group of students to Washington DC in 1995 to meet Senator Musky. There were 14 of us. And the students came up with this question on the issue of healing. And the question was this, that they asked the Senator, due to the extreme divisions that took place in the 1960s and early (19)70s, between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war and those were against the war, and those who supported the troops or against the troops, and all the other divisions that took place at that time. Witnessing what happened in America in 1968, with the two assassinations and the convention and turmoil of police beating heads, a president withdrawing, burnings in the cities, talk that we were heading toward a second civil war. Do you feel that the (19)60s, or the boomer generation, is going to its grave like the Civil War generation as a generation that will never heal from the divisions that tore them apart? DU (01:51:20): No, because I do not think the divisions were anywhere near as a deep or grave as Civil War divisions. Civil War divisions are still here. What is Faulkner's famous quote about, the past is gone, it is even past? Something like that. SM (01:51:50): His what now? DU (01:51:53): Faulkner said, the past has been forgotten in the fact it is not even past. Something to that. SM (01:52:00): Okay. DU (01:52:05): That legacy is still with us every day. But you see that around Alabama, anywhere you look. So, this business of the Boomer Era, I do not think it is anywhere near the− SM (01:52:26): Yeah. DU (01:52:27): The sound of that. SM (01:52:30): The students thought that Senator Musky would talk about 1968, because he was the vice presidential running mate at that convention. And he mentioned nothing about (19)68. He basically said we have not healed since the Civil War and the issue of race. And then he went on to talk about that at length, and that we had lost 430,000 men in that war, almost an entire generation in the south. So, you are kind of right in your assumptions, or not right, but you agree with the Senator Musky. One of the qualities that often is labeled in this generation, is they are not a very trusting generation, because they all witnessed, including those that were not activists, so many presidents and leaders who lied to them. Whether it be the experience of Watergate, the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which a lot of people knew was a lie by (19)65, by President Johnson. Then you had the U-2 incident where President Eisenhower lied on national television. You had so many other politicians who had lied. Nobody trusted the information coming back from Vietnam because they knew that the counts that were being presented in American public included animals and all kinds of things. So, the lies were conscious. So young Black Boomers did not trust anyone in positions of authority, whether it be a minister or a rabbi, priest, university president, vice president of student affairs, Congressman, Senator, any corporate leader, anybody in position of responsibility. But do you feel that is a negative quality or a positive quality, this lacking of trust? DU (01:54:19): I think it is a positive quality not to trust if the trust is untrustworthy. If you truly are being misled and misused by those in positions of authority, you had better distrust them. SM (01:54:35): Do you believe what a lot of political science believe? DU (01:54:40): What? SM (01:54:41): Do you believe what a lot of political scientists believe that the sign of a true democracy is when you do not trust your government? Because that means that liberty and democracy is alive and well? DU (01:54:54): No. In a democracy you would be able to trust the government. SM (01:55:02): Right. But if you do not trust it, that is okay too, isn't it? DU (01:55:06): No, that is not a democracy. SM (01:55:11): Explain the− DU (01:55:15): If you do not trust it, then you believe that it is effectively operating against your interest. That cannot be a democracy, unless you are some sort of autocrat. In that case, if it is not operating against you, it might be a democracy. But if you are part of the demos, and you do not trust the government, then it is not a democracy. Because you were rightly doubtful about it toward you. SM (01:55:54): I got about 10- DU (01:55:54): Oh, I think the need to distrust it is an unhealthy, not a healthy one. SM (01:56:06): Can we go 10 more minutes? Because I have got about 10 more minutes here. DU (01:56:10): Yeah. SM (01:56:10): Okay. What did we learn from Vietnam? DU (01:56:17): Next to nothing, near as I know. SM (01:56:22): What have we forgotten about Vietnam? DU (01:56:29): What was the story about the French regime, about how they had learned nothing and had forgotten nothing? SM (01:56:39): Who was that now, the French regime? DU (01:56:43): The ancient regime on the verge of the− SM (01:56:44): Oh, okay. DU (01:56:45): − the overthrow. That they were incapable of learning. The circumstances changed, but they had not forgotten any of their old resentments or loyalty. They had learned nothing and forgotten nothing. I think the Vietnam experience is similar. Learned nothing, forgot nothing. My belief, it is one of the− The radio station anymore says this stuff. SM (01:57:14): And please speak up. DU (01:57:18): I said, one of the reasons I am not at the radio station anymore, because I said this stuff on the air. When these new wars are on it, I believe that the anti-war movement saved the world from World War III. Because without it, I think the pro war element in Washington would have pushed that Vietnam forward to the point where they brought China to war. Because China was never going to accept American victory, or even the approach of American victory. Vietnam, just sad not in Korea. So if pro-war folks had been able to have their way, and supply all of their resources, including even nuclear ones to that war, they would have pushed it to the point where they brought China in before. And that would have made World War III. SM (01:58:10): Wow. DU (01:58:10): Nuclear World War III. The anti-war movement prevented the warriors in Washington doing that. And in the process, I think saved the world from World War III. SM (01:58:30): Uh- huh [affirmative] DU (01:58:30): But that does not mean that those in command of the forces who could create World War III learned this lesson. I do not think they did. SM (01:58:47): Wow. DU (01:58:48): Which means that some anti-war movement may need to rise again, form the same active probation. Of chief difference now is that there is not booming over these current wars, prospect of another superpower able to challenge America in a way that could bring on World War. That is not apparent at the moment it could be. It could appear, as yet, but it certainly was apparent in Vietnam and the memory of the Cuban Missile Crisis. It instructed you about that every time you gave it a thought. So I believe the antiwar movement saved us from that, and that there was not the recognition of thanks for doing so. That does not get it. It is still a curse to call somebody a hippie. SM (01:59:49): Right. DU (02:00:02): In fact, when Bush started his wars, I was, for a little while allowed to be on the radio, there were people who detected the card of my anti-war, who were just puzzled. Many were furious and calling me a traitor and in a sense calling for a death sentence if you opposed. Some were just puzzled. And then− SM (02:00:30): Okay. DU (02:00:32): And they said, "How can you, you just oppose war? You are against war?" They were puzzle that anybody would think war was a bad idea. SM (02:00:55): Unbelievable. DU (02:00:59): Not only do I think it is bad, I think those who stood up against the Vietnam War save the world from ruin. They should be honored for it, as it is filed and said, those who ordered the war and those who carried it out are honored. And that legacy sets us up for more of the same. SM (02:01:28): It is interesting, it is just like it is a brand-new book. I buy everything on Vietnam that I can read. But in the Vietnam section, if you go to Barnes & Noble right now, and even Borders, there is a brand-new book out on Tet. We would have won Tet, and that is what the book is about. And this is about a guy from Vietnam who was there, and this is how we would have won Tet. I do not want to hear that. And that is again saying, we actually did not lose Tet, but in the eyes of our public, it affected us. And that is a lot of the reason why President Johnson withdrew. But when you learned, when you hear words, oftentimes there were slogans that were said at the time of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, just what did these few slogans or actually words mean to you? And the first one is, we already mentioned, "By any means necessary." What did Malcolm mean by that? DU (02:02:34): That is playing on his face. That is not that ambiguous, I do not think. He was saying that we are not going to accept the status that you have forced upon us. SM (02:02:44): And please speak up. DU (02:02:45): We are not going to accept that it is forced upon us. And whatever is required to alter that, is what we will do. Even if that means we must die in the trying, which he did. SM (02:03:08): How about JFK in his inaugural, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." So supposedly it was inspired by young people, and it was, at the University of Michigan. And then he had a great guy named Sergeant Schreiber, who kind of carried it down with a Peace Corps in one area. But it really inspired a lot of people, even to go into the service. DU (02:03:29): Oh, it did. It did. And it has often been taken in a plea for people to surrender themselves to the suffocating embrace of the state. But that was not what Kennedy meant and that was not how it was taken at the time. Rather, it was a call to set aside your private headache turn for a greater communal turn. Enacted through the machinery of the state, which at the time, was widely believed to me a magnificent and efficient operation that could actually enact higher ideals than individual personal satisfaction. SM (02:04:39): His other one that we all know is, "We will bear any burden, pay any price." And a lot of people believe that set the tone for the Vietnam war. DU (02:04:48): Yep. SM (02:04:49): Do you believe that? Because he was long dead after we had the advisors there, but it was Johnson who brought the troops in. DU (02:04:59): Who knows what Kennedy had signed, or Sorenson who probably wrote it. And that sounds like inaugural bluffery to me. So, Kennedy, he did pay any price, did not he? SM (02:05:30): Yeah, he did. And "Bear any burden, pay any price." Of course, that fall, the DM regime fell just about a month before he was assassinated. So there was a lot going on there. DU (02:05:44): It did not fall, it was [inaudible 02:05:44] SM (02:05:44): Yeah. DU (02:05:45): Right? SM (02:05:45): Yeah. DU (02:05:47): Yeah. SM (02:05:47): I believe the President was shocked though that they were killed. DU (02:05:49): Oh, okay. SM (02:05:51): Yeah. Robert Kennedy's favorite slogan was, "Some men see things as they are and ask why, I see things that never were and ask why not?" That was not his original quote, but he used it. I believe he quoted that in Indianapolis the night that Dr. King was− DU (02:06:08): That is right. SM (02:06:10): That is kind of an activist mentality, isn't it? It is kind of a− DU (02:06:14): Yes it is. Yep. SM (02:06:16): That is pretty inspirational. Would you say that is how see would some of your light? DU (02:06:26): Yes, I suppose. And I do not think those are a mark of his brothers. The way they are now, he talked through the histrionics of a bloated federal− I took them as a plea for a turn toward common rather than individual health values. And exercise to the coordination of state. It sounds quaint now to say that because they have lost a cluster of being in a capable institution. But those things were said by the Kennedys, at a time much closer to the New Deal than we are now to the time when Kennedy said those things. SM (02:07:46): Right. Yep. DU (02:07:52): And the apparent success of the New Deal in raising a whole stratum of the population out of destitution, to some hopeful life, was still very much on people's mind. SM (02:08:08): The one that, obviously you being in the south for a long time, "We shall overcome." Of course, the song is historic and you hear it all the time today. And certainly hear it on Dr. King's birthday. But how does that impact you? DU (02:08:30): It keeps you going when nothing else will. SM (02:08:36): Mm-hmm. DU (02:08:40): It did so during a movement era when you knew that you had some kind of mass and some kind of momentum with you, but also knew that you had stirred up a determined and even deadly persistence. So that song and the sentiment sustains you. And it also sustains you in times when that movement is gone, and you are operating much of the time, almost alone, and in the darkness. And you have to pause and wonder why. SM (02:09:18): Right. DU (02:09:18): And that song and its sentiments help carry on when nothing else will. SM (02:09:27): There was the one that, " Tune in, turn on, drop out," was Timothy Leary. Your thoughts on that? DU (02:09:38): Leary was not my favorite. I never ever was attracted to what he was doing. Diversionary at best, destructive at worse. SM (02:09:57): This− DU (02:09:57): I also thought that the sort of people he appealed to most were folks who had, somewhere in the privileged echelon, who had lots of cushions they could fall back on if they made any big mistakes in life. But others who did not have the cushion to fall back on, if they followed Leary's ways, and made one or two big mistakes, they were probably finished forever. But Leary and his buddy Albert came from an appeal who knew that they had lots of cushions that they could stop and they could bounce back. Most people could not, and they were going to be victims rather than liberated. SM (02:10:55): How about the women's movement and, "All politics is personal"? DU (02:11:07): I do not believe all politics is personal. But some politics are politics. SM (02:11:18): That was the slogan of the National Organization for Women, when they started, how politics was personal. DU (02:11:26): It is in line with a lot of these others we have been talking about. I did not participate in it, as much as the others. I have never called myself a feminist. Some men do. I cannot believe in calling myself a feminist, but I acknowledge that it has greatly altered society. SM (02:11:56): Then there was, on the Peter Max posters that were very popular in the early (19)70s, the hippie mentality. "You do your thing; I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." DU (02:12:11): Yeah. SM (02:12:15): You like that kind of mentality? DU (02:12:19): No. I mean− SM (02:12:20): Yeah. DU (02:12:21): And an activist does not believe that. SM (02:12:25): Right. DU (02:12:27): Activists are always speaking organization, and direction, and purpose. And what that requires, people become loosened from, if not separated, loosened from their familiar ways besides, so that they are willing to think about and do different things of, they won't become so loose unless they adopt some of that hippy attitude. But if they become the stuff of hippies, then they disappear from that active life. SM (02:13:05): How about the− DU (02:13:06): They are no help. SM (02:13:07): This was, there is actually two of them from Jerry Rubin, "Do not trust anyone over 30." And then he changed it to 40. And then, do it, which was the title of his book, Do It. They were kind of the yippie mentality, the yippies. DU (02:13:25): Yeah. SM (02:13:28): Any thoughts on that? DU (02:13:32): Abbie Hoffman spoke once at the State University here in Mobile, and offered to jump off the stage and into the audience and try to punch me out. He was restrained by some of the other professors on the stage who had invited him to speak. Because I had challenged from the audience, during the question period, about exactly these sort of things. The message he and Rubin said lured people away from activism and turned them off rather than turned them on. And in many cases, physically or emotionally wrecked them, affected them into a life of drugs, of the opposite of raising them consciousness activism. And he was more of a digressive than a progressive influence because of that. Ooh− SM (02:14:44): Wow. DU (02:14:46): He was pissed. He wanted to jump off the stage and have it out on the spot with me, he said. And made some motions like he was going to do that, but I think he would probably seized, some of the other jumped up and grabbed him. SM (02:15:02): It is amazing, because of the perceptions I have had from between Abbie and Jerry is Jerry was not a likable person and Abbie was. And Abbie lived a lifetime of activism, but Jerry went off to make money. It is an interesting story. I have interviewed a lot of his friends. Here is one, the last one here is, "One giant step for man, one giant leap for mankind," which is Neil Armstrong. Even though it was up in space, it still has, I think, a meaning to a lot of the (19)60s and (19)70s. Because if we actually accomplished something, we got, a promise was made by a President, and here we are on the moon before the end of the decade. DU (02:15:50): I think I remember being deliberately unimpressed by that. SM (02:15:55): Right? DU (02:15:59): I thought it was literally out of this world, other worldly. And it defected or deflected from rather than helped address things that needed to be addressed in this world. SM (02:16:15): Oh, okay. DU (02:16:15): And I, to the best of my ability, ignored it for those reasons. It was impossible to ignore it entirely. And it was an astonishing thing, but I thought it was irrelevant at best, and damaging at worst. SM (02:16:35): Considering that it was on a stage in Arizona too, was hard to− DU (02:16:38): Yes. SM (02:16:41): Some people tried to say that. DU (02:16:42): Yes. And listen, do not get me wrong about Rubin and Hoffman. And I thought some of the things they did, like making the stock brokers go crazy by tossing dollar bills off the balcony at the stock exchange. SM (02:16:56): Yep. That was Abbie. DU (02:17:00): Yeah, that was wonderful. Some of the stuff they did was. SM (02:17:07): Yeah, and Abbie's friends told me the differences that those two guys had. And they had friction from the get go. And Jerry was not, I cannot− He has passed away. All you have to do is go on the web, and on YouTube, and see every interview of Abbie Hoffman, and then you see the interviews of Jerry Rubin, and you see what a jerk Jerry Rubin is, and what a nice person Abbie is. So, you might have got him on a bad day. But I have only got three more questions here. The generation gap, did you have a generation gap issue with your family and parents? When you went off to college? DU (02:17:55): I do not, it was− Nobody in my family had ever done anything like that before. Neither of my parents were college graduates. SM (02:18:02): And please speak up again. DU (02:18:06): Neither of my parents were college grads. They graduated into the Depression and had to work. I do not know where, it was more than an obsession of mine to go off to get the most deeply teacher education I could, in the most demanding place I could get into or came from, but I had it. That was the generation, there was a gap of interest and ambition between me and the family and my surroundings. It was not generational. It was beyond that. SM (02:19:03): So were your parents against the war in Vietnam? DU (02:19:06): Yes, actually. SM (02:19:07): Okay. DU (02:19:08): Actually, before most any other adults that I knew, but I did not know that until after I had already launched a state of events about that. They were way out in the West. After I went to college, I had no regular connection with my family or this great part of my life. SM (02:19:35): Well you remember there was that Life Magazine that had that young man on the cover with sun and one eye shade, and the other eye shade being the father's pointing fingers at each other. So, there was a strong generation gap between the World War II and the Boomers over a lot of the issues, lifestyle, politics, but− Huh? DU (02:19:59): That did not happen for me, but it was mostly- PART 4 OF 5 ENDS [02:20:04] DU (02:20:03): − for me but it was mostly a function of the distance and separation rather than [inaudible 02:20:14]. SM (02:20:17): You did not see them at Harvard and Columbia with your peers? DU (02:20:24): Yes, I saw it. Yeah, but I did not relate to it. I did not have to deal with that intimately, like many of them did. SM (02:20:42): In a book called the Wounded Generation, there was a symposium in 1980 with some of the top Vietnam veterans from Phil Caputo and Jim Webb, Bobby Muller, a couple other well-known names. In that conversation, one of them mentioned that he felt that the generation gap was− Yes, there was a gap between parents and students, but the real gap was between those who went to war and those who did not within the generation. He was very critical of the generation and for those who say that the (19)60s generation was a generation that served, that is, i.e., went to the Peace Corps, Vista, did all kinds of things, served their nation in a time of war, he said it is anything but a service generation because when you are called to go to war, you go. It is like your parents did in World War II. Did you sense there was a generation gap within the generation between those who went to Vietnam and those who did not? DU (02:21:51): I have an older brother who was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam. From the first time I went out there and I was there handing out leaflets against the war [inaudible 02:22:08] 10 years later, being chased down the streets of DC with teargas and mounted police. I was thinking I got to do what I can, as little and as ineffective as it may be, to try to bring this war to an end so my brother can get out of it alive. Even though, he was not [inaudible 02:22:37]. SM (02:22:36): When you had family get togethers, say, in the late (19)60s and (19)70s, after the− Well, after the war was over, did you and your brother have issues with each other? Because he went to war, and you did not. DU (02:22:59): He just would not speak of what happened and what he did there. He would not talk about it. [inaudible 02:23:08] but the Pentagon Papers had a big impact on him. When that book came out, when they appeared in book form, he bought it and read it cover to cover. Even though, he was not the most scholarly man. He was not pleased at what he found there. SM (02:23:40): Wow. DU (02:23:41): [inaudible 02:23:41] and he realized he had been deceived. SM (02:23:48): Wow. DU (02:23:49): He realized that he was lured into what he thought was patriotic duty under false pretenses. He also realized his little brother was right. SM (02:23:59): Wow. Did he ever talk to you personally on that? DU (02:24:03): Only obliquely [inaudible 02:24:07]. SM (02:24:08): Are you close to your brother? DU (02:24:10): Not particularly but [inaudible 02:24:17] our lives have gone on different paths [inaudible 02:24:21]. He just would not talk about his service. [inaudible 02:24:28] you were right after all. Some remark he made. We both knew that was so. SM (02:24:44): Yeah. DU (02:24:47): At some point, [inaudible 02:24:49] save the country and save the world from what I was sure was World War Three [inaudible 02:24:58] but also trying to save him. SM (02:25:03): I mentioned all those movements that evolved from the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement because the women's movement evolved in many respects because a lot of the sexism that took place in those two prior movements and women became− They had important− They did have important roles in the anti-war and civil rights movements but sexism was definitely there, and so the women's movement came about and, of course, the gay and lesbian movement in (19)69 at Stonewall. You had the Earth Day, the environmental movement in 1970, the Chicano movement, Cesar Chavez who worked closely with Bobby Kennedy and then, of course, you had the Native American movement that was going on in its heyday in the late (19)60s and (19)70s. It seemed like they were very strong movements. When there was an anti-war protest, it seemed like they were all there. Now as time goes by, it seems like whenever there is a movement, the movement is like− The women's movement is only women there. There is no anti-war groups. If there is a gay and lesbian protest, it is only them. It seems like they have become so special interest and so− They are not united anymore. At one time, they were united and now they all seem divided in their own little spheres. Am I correct in sensing this? DU (02:26:33): Yeah. I mentioned to you before that in those years, those movements all were− They were kindred. [inaudible 02:26:40] they grew out of and overlapped and nourished each other. If you moved from one of those realms, either in activity or geography, you would run into many of the same people. That is no longer true. You are right. SM (02:27:11): Even the conservative critics of those movements say they have become nothing but special interest. In other words, they only care about them. That is a very strong conservative, neoconservative criticism that all these movements, including civil rights, they are all special interest groups now and they have gone into the universities, as Phyllis Schlafly said, the universities today are run by people who were the protestors of the war. She says radicals have now taken over the universities. DU (02:27:51): I do not see that. I do not have daily contact of the inners of universities but what I do, I do not see that. SM (02:28:01): I think she sees− She saw that the women's studies, gay and lesbian studies, Asian American studies, Native American, African American studies, environmental, they are all run by liberal left people with their own agendas. DU (02:28:19): If you are talking about people with an identity politic outlook, trying to push their little plan forward, academically or otherwise, there is some truth in that but that is not the same as a liberal or a radical movement on campus. SM (02:28:38): Right. DU (02:28:40): Identity politic does not challenge or upset [inaudible 02:28:43] as I can tell. The imperial impulse that exists in the Vietnam War and is still as strong as ever and universities still are given more intellectual and other support to that imperial impulse as they did in the (19)60s and whatever radical counter there is to that is feeble on the campus. [inaudible 02:29:22] poor people's movement that Martin Luther King was trying to launch [inaudible 02:29:34] to the Civil Rights Movement, when he was assassinated [inaudible 02:29:41] as a result and the consequence of that poor people's movement failure are visible around you on the streets every day, of every American city, and universities are not addressing that. [inaudible 02:30:00] left behind by the failure of that movement are not prominent or influential [inaudible 02:30:05] people are talking about [inaudible 02:30:10] of the only thing they mean is some kind of identity politics and attraction in the universities, these people like Phyllis Schlafly do not like because they want to maintain a myth of the old unitary American identity and for that reason, they do not like it but other than that− SM (02:30:39): Would you agree, though− Again, you refer to this in the community as opposed to on the university campuses but I have been on university campuses for 30 years, and what happened with a professor being fired− I mention because he was involved in a protest or a speaker not being allowed to come to a college campus in the (19)60s for fear that money would not be given to the university because of a political point of view, that it has gotten to the other− It is really extreme today that because monies are tight on university campuses and the fact is that it is all about scholarships, it is all about fundraising, that they got to be very careful about who they invite to a university campus and if there is somebody that is controversial, it could threaten the bottom line and so they are really into that. The whole idea that Mario Savio talked about, about the world of ideas, which is what the university is about, is really today still about the bottom line and ideas play a secondary role. DU (02:31:56): Yeah. SM (02:31:56): Do you agree with that? DU (02:31:57): Yes. Yes. A few years ago, I was with all these people who had gone to bring a Palestinian speaker to the city and to campus venues. Among those promoting this were some Jewish groups advocating on behalf of Palestinian rights and [inaudible 02:32:28] moderate and polite way and that caused [inaudible 02:32:34] and on the state university campus here for exactly the reason you just said. SM (02:32:38): Yeah, it is interesting. DU (02:32:41): [inaudible 02:32:41] they might withhold who did not like any [inaudible 02:32:50] presentation [inaudible 02:32:56] be known that if this happened, financial consequences would follow. SM (02:33:03): Yeah. That is interesting. We did a conference my last semester that I organized with a couple of faculty members and students called Islam In America. We were packed every session, the whole theater was packed for 10 straight sessions from morning until about 10 o'clock, 10:30 at night, and I never saw so much criticism in my life of a successful event and it was all about educating about what it means to be in the religion of Islam. It had nothing to do with being anti-Israel. Oh my God. Everybody on the committee was looked at, studied, ridiculed, all the speakers, all the panelists were all ridiculed. I mean, people that I worked with− That is one of the reasons that I love the university. People I worked with who had never came to things, they were all in the audience and they were just there to try and see if anything negative happened. Nothing negative happened except people were upset that− They thought that we were promoting as opposed to educating. I only got two more and then we are done, because I know you have gone over, and I really appreciate it. Could you list some of the heavyweights in the lives of Boomers over the past 64 years? List the people who stood out− Actually, in your view, people that stood out in the following areas since 1946 that you feel had an influence on the Boomer generation. The first category is TV/radio personalities. DU (02:34:43): TV/radio personalities? SM (02:34:45): Yes. It could be news men, it could be talk show hosts, it could be anything. DU (02:34:57): Edward R. Murrow. SM (02:34:59): Okay. DU (02:35:00): Are you asking about people who have influenced me or who I think have influenced [inaudible 02:35:08]. SM (02:35:08): Yeah. People that you think − When you look at the last, what is now 64 years since Boomers were born, because they are now reaching 64 this year, people that you feel, you personally, who has lived the same time that they have lived, and you are not very much older, I mean, you are a year or two older, so you are really one of them and I have learned that, that people from (19)40 on, to me, are really Boomers in their mentality, in the way they live their lives, and everything. You know, TV personalities that you felt were major in their lives. You have said Edward R. Murrow. DU (02:35:50): Yeah. Yeah. SM (02:35:51): Anybody else? DU (02:35:54): I do not know. I never paid much attention to TV. SM (02:35:59): Okay. How about writers? DU (02:36:03): I mentioned [inaudible 02:36:06]. I was an early devote of Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings. A buddy in college [inaudible 02:36:21] and as a fable of perseverance in the face of difficulties, even [inaudible 02:36:41]. SM (02:36:52): Who's the person? DU (02:36:55): Tolkien, the Lord of the Rings. SM (02:36:57): Oh, the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien. Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. Any others before we go− The next section is politicians. DU (02:37:07): Yeah. Lately, I have been reading and rereading Given. SM (02:37:16): Edward Given? DU (02:37:17): The Decline and the Fall of the Roman− SM (02:37:18): Yeah. We had to read that when I was a history major. DU (02:37:22): Yeah. It seemed pertinent. SM (02:37:31): How about politicians? There were a lot of them. DU (02:37:31): Politicians? I worked for Senator Frank Church of Idaho. SM (02:37:45): You are lucky. He was a great person. DU (02:37:47): Yeah. I mean, I knew him− When I was a cheeky teen, I just walked into his office, in the federal building in Boise one day when I knew he was there, and the Congress was in session. I introduced myself. I said, "You are my senator. I want to get to know you." He was sitting there by himself. He invited me home and I went and had dinner with him. SM (02:38:16): Oh my gosh. What an experience. DU (02:38:16): Yeah. You could do that in a small town like that. I kept up with him after that and I worked in his Washington office. [inaudible 02:38:30] one summer. I was working in Senator Church's office. SM (02:38:37): Oh, wow. DU (02:38:38): Did that for two summers. SM (02:38:43): Wow. He is historic because of the Church committee and, of course, his son Forrest passed away this past year. I interviewed him for the book. DU (02:38:54): Well, I knew Forrest also. Forrest was around the office the summers I was working. [inaudible 02:39:06] senator's wife and, of course, mother. She is still alive. [inaudible 02:39:16]. I was very impressed with Church in a rock star kind of way because he was young and a flashy senator and he hung out with the Kennedys and all that when I was an impressionable age, and I claimed [inaudible 02:39:40] but when I got to know him more politically, [inaudible 02:39:47] I was even more impressed with the caliber− SM (02:39:58): Yeah. He is in that− DU (02:39:59): [inaudible 02:39:59] Wayne Morris and a few others [inaudible 02:40:03]. SM (02:40:02): Yeah. [Ernest] Gruening. Yeah. Wow. DU (02:40:08): Morris, Gruening, Church, they were [inaudible 02:40:10] and when he ran for president in (19)76, I spent the summer volunteer working on his campaign. SM (02:40:19): Wow. DU (02:40:19): In the DC office [inaudible 02:40:21] Rhode Island and Ohio. SM (02:40:28): Yeah. What an experience, because I consider him a statesman. You know? Nelson was another one from that period who went against the war and, of course, Senator Church and Senator Nelson and Senator McGovern and Senator McCarthy were all ousted in 1980, also Birch Bayh in the anti-war, being against people who were in the anti-war likes. It is amazing. Anybody in the civil rights, women's movement, environmental movement stand out in your opinion? That you feel were very influential. DU (02:41:10): Well, because of what Martin Luther King did, the direction of my life changed, I would not be talking to you from Alabama− Civil rights came out of Alabama. SM (02:41:24): Right. I have got to get down there some time to see where the Montgomery bus boycott took place. How about any of the TV shows that you think were impactful? You said you did not watch TV very much. DU (02:41:44): Hardly. SM (02:41:46): How about newspaper journalists? DU (02:41:54): I loved Russell Baker. SM (02:41:56): Okay. DU (02:41:58): [inaudible 02:41:58] New York Times, because he was irreverent and offbeat and quietly radical. SM (02:42:18): Any magazines that stand out? DU (02:42:19): Not particularly, and I have written a few things for the Nation, so I guess I should say them. SM (02:42:31): How about the activists that you really looked up to? DU (02:42:42): [inaudible 02:42:42]. It was mostly the folks out in the trenches. SM (02:42:53): Not so much the big names. DU (02:42:56): Almost anonymous [inaudible 02:43:00] be there when you needed somebody there. SM (02:43:06): Right. Any scholars? DU (02:43:25): I paid attention to what [inaudible 02:43:27]. SM (02:43:28): Who? DU (02:43:30): [inaudible 02:43:30]. SM (02:43:31): Okay. I interviewed him for my book. I do not know if anybody in the veteran community you were linked to in any way but any veterans you admired? DU (02:43:53): [inaudible 02:43:53] Veterans for Peace− I consider myself a veteran of the Vietnam War, even though, I was never military. [inaudible 02:44:10] have a military− SM (02:44:15): You have a what? DU (02:44:15): [inaudible 02:44:15] military dog tag [inaudible 02:44:17] be a veteran. SM (02:44:19): Right. Yeah. DU (02:44:23): Some of those organizations, I admire. SM (02:44:29): You believe that those that were involved in the anti-war movement, like those who served in Vietnam were part of the Vietnam− They are Vietnam vets? DU (02:44:40): Yes. SM (02:44:42): My last question here is when the best history books are written, they are often written 50 years after an event or a period. You know, a couple years back, the best books on World War II were being written 50 years after the war. My question is basically when the last Boomer has passed away, many years from now, and there is no one around that will have experienced what it was like to live when we lived, what do you think historians, sociologists, writers are going to say about the generation that grew up after World War II or around World War II and the influence they had on America? DU (02:45:29): Well, the [inaudible 02:45:31] book. SM (02:45:35): Pardon? That would be nice. DU (02:45:36): Yeah. [inaudible 02:45:38] book and then you will know. SM (02:45:41): Yeah, because what is interesting, David, is that I want people to know the people for who they are, what they stand for, and to respect them all, because how one is raised, reared, and their life experiences are different. To understand the time, I truly believe that oral history right now is the best way to do it and so I got a long way to go but I am doing this because I have a drive within me t− DU (02:46:15): I can tell. SM (02:46:16): Yeah. It is like my work at the university. I did over 450 programs at Westchester University. I know a lot of people and those programs are not happening anymore. They are not doing any lectures, forums, debates and seminars. I am getting students emailing me saying the university is not the same anymore and it is because the finances are tough and all they want to do is party and program. There is some good quality things that faculty are doing but I did not go into higher education to just simply retire and not do anything more. My whole life is devoted to students and will continue to be so. Are there any questions that you expected me to ask you that I did not ask? DU (02:47:13): Well, I tried not to think about what you might ask me, because I did not want to have canned answers. I wanted [inaudible 02:47:25] the first thing that occurred to me. I did not have any expectations about what you might ask [inaudible 02:47:39] conversations are what I supposed it would be, but I had not formulated anything specific. SM (02:47:49): One thing is I do not know if you have a couple pictures of yourself, but I am going to need a couple pictures. I do not know if you have any recent pictures or even pictures, somebody is sending me a picture from− Caroline Cassidy is going to send me a picture of her when she was− 1970. Then a picture of her. She lives way up in Oregon, and I cannot get to Oregon. I have gone and interviewed everybody in person who lived in New York, Washington, Baltimore, I have gone up to Boston three times, going up to San Francisco, in a couple weeks just to take pictures of 14 people that I interviewed. I am not spending any time with them because I have already interviewed them but trying to coordinate that. I am going on vacation, and I am going to do it all in two days, drive around San Francisco, going from place to place, taking pictures of all these people. I have two interviews out there too. I am going to need your pictures. I am going to keep you updated because I am going to be hibernating at the end of October. My interviews end at the end of October. I have one in November and that is it. I am not doing anymore. DU (02:49:04): You want before and after pictures? SM (02:49:06): It can be before and after. It can be two pictures. It can be a current one. Whichever. You can mail it to me through the mail or on the computer. I prefer the mail because somebody sent me a computer picture from California that was terrible. I am taking a picture of him in person. Whatever. There is no rush, but I just wanted to let you know. DU (02:49:28): What is the mailing address? SM (02:49:31): My mailing address is 3323 Valley, V-A-L-L-E-Y, Drive in West Chester, and that is two words, Pennsylvania, 19382. You have my name. DU (02:49:49): 19382? SM (02:49:52): Yeah. I will keep you updated. Between November 1st and probably June, I will be transcribing them all myself. Someone says, "You have got a lot of work to do." I said, "Yup. I got the equipment here." I have already done 12. It is not that bad. I have been advised not to let anybody else do them, because I have got two authors that had nothing but problems when they were transcribed by others. When I am transcribing them, it brings back all the memories. They are going to be divided into seven sections with the pictures and then what I call magic moments, that will be under each interview that I pick as magic moments. There were several that you gave me today that were unbelievable. Then the rest of it will be the interview and you will eventually see the transcript and so the next seven months, I am going to be transcribing. I have one university press that wants to do it, but I have not tried to go after any other presses, so I have made no commitments. DU (02:50:57): You got one for sure? SM (02:51:01): Yeah. One for sure, without even−I did not even send them a proposal. I talked to them at a conference. I was at a higher ed conference this summer. They knew that all the people that I had interviewed and, anyways, long story. I have not approached any major book companies and I am going to send 12 transcripts, my introduction, and then go from there. DU (02:51:35): Okay. [inaudible 02:51:38] picture from me. [inaudible 02:51:48]. SM (02:51:49): Yeah. You can mail them to me− I want to get most of them before the holidays, because I want to be able to get the pictures and, so if you can think of trying to get those two to me before Christmas, that would be great. DU (02:52:05): Yeah. [inaudible 02:52:06] wrote to myself with your address. [inaudible 02:52:11]. If you do not get the pictures [inaudible 02:52:16]. SM (02:52:16): Yeah. I will. DU (02:52:16): [inaudible 02:52:16]. Okay? SM (02:52:16): Yeah. DU (02:52:17): You have my permission [inaudible 02:52:18]. SM (02:52:17): Okay. DU (02:52:18): If you come across any [inaudible 02:52:18] transcript and you want to [inaudible 02:52:33]. SM (02:52:35): Will do. DU (02:52:35): Okay? SM (02:52:36): Yup. I am going to contact that person too that you mentioned and if there is any other people that you feel would be good people to interview, let me know. DU (02:52:45): Great. SM (02:52:47): David, you have a great day. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Underhill Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Underhill, David ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Journalists; Authors, American--20th century; Political activists--United States; Underhill, David--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;David Underhill is a journalist, writer and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States, and was schooled mainly in eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the Harvard Crimson. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the Southern Courier, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:7043,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,6710886],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">David Underhill is a journalist, writer, and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States and was schooled mainly in the eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the <em>Harvard Crimson</em>. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the <em>Southern Courier</em>, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. </span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-09-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.163a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.163b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 172:51 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/570210515a5dbbff1849665079a019c2.jpg ba3ae7be0d22a3c18f064646b5313221 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f2d643a7eaeb9ace249ed52777f49cf4.mp3 ca2fac9da842b2308b8d7349d3bedde9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-11-06 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Harris Language English Biographical Text <span>David Victor Harris is a journalist, author, and activist. He was a leading opponent of the draft during the Vietnam War, which began during his college days at Stanford University. As a young college student, he became involved in the Civil Rights Movement where he joined students from all over the country in the Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee's (SNCC) 1964 voter registration campaign in Mississippi. In 1966, he became president of the Stanford University student body, and as a leading critic of the draft, he formed a group called the Resistance. Harris was </span><span>the first person arrested for refusing to register for the draft in </span><span>1968. In his later years, Harris has received journalistic praise for his non-fiction books on his experiences in the sixties and seventies along with other books connected to personalities or issues in those times.<br /><br />Harris died from lung cancer at his home in Mill Valley on February 6, 2023, at the age of 76.<br /></span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 86:58 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Role models; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Cold War; Nuclear warfare; Saigon; Army reserve; Mason-Dixon line; Civil War; Slavery; Women's Rights Movement.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Role models; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Cold War; Nuclear warfare; Saigon; Army reserve; Mason-Dixon line; Civil War; Slavery; Women's Rights Movement.</span> Subject LCSH Journalists; Authors; Political activists--United States; Harris, David, 1946--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: David Victor Harris Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 6 November 2009 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Good. Are you ready to go? DH (00:00:07): I am ready. SM (00:00:10): Okay. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? DH (00:00:18): Well, it is too much territory to really have a specific thing that comes to my mind, but being out there on the edge, as far as the feeling, I guess. SM (00:00:37): Is there a specific event when you were young, because you are the front edge of the boomer generation, as they define it, from 1946 to (19)64? DH (00:00:47): Pretty close to the first. SM (00:00:50): Yeah. And actually, I think some people are eligible for social security this year. DH (00:00:56): I was born in February of (19)46. So right there at the start of the curve. SM (00:01:03): What was it in your particular life, at what point in your life did you know that you had to speak up about something, whether it be in high school? Because a lot of people never had the courage to speak up, and they always followed authority, but was there one specific incident, the first time that you knew you had to speak up about an issue? DH (00:01:26): Oh, I suppose when I attended a public meeting during the fall of my freshman year at Standford, where they were recruiting volunteers to go down to Mississippi and help the-the Mississippi Project, fall of (19)63. At that point, I heard a call. I did not go to Mississippi right at that moment, but within a year I was in Mississippi. SM (00:01:55): Yeah. Talk a little bit about that experience in the South, and being around those other young people who had the same caring attitude that you had. Did you feel that they were a rare breed within the boomer generation? DH (00:02:12): Well, certainly. I mean, at the time, Mississippi was an extraordinarily influential moment for the entire generation, and certainly for me. I think you are absolutely right when you describe it as a caring response. There really was not an ideology at that point. People were there because they thought Black people had the right to vote without being lynched. I mean, it was as simple as that. It was really a value based proposition, far more than it was a politics based proposition. And I felt like, when I went to Mississippi, that I was participating in the great adventure of our time, and I did not want to miss it. SM (00:03:07): When you were young also, who would you consider to be your, this might be an overused term, role models or people that inspired you? But most importantly, someone who may have been older, who believed in you? DH (00:03:22): It is a different category. As a political figure, given when I started out in the Mississippi Project, the man was Bob [inaudible]. And to this day, I still have enormous respect for that. And he was slightly older than me, but I had no contact with him. I would follow fish to the circles that he read from afar. I thought he was enormously captivating, and a lot of what I first learned about organizing, just came from listening to him. And so, I would list him as a big influence. The older people who had faith in me, from my experience, were teachers. I had three teachers that I would put in that category. One, who I [inaudible] from in high school, one from my freshman year at Stanford, and one from my sophomore year on. Those were the big persons that supplied me not only with the intellect stuff, but... SM (00:04:57): You want to list those names, just for the record? DH (00:04:59): Sure. Well, in high school was a man named Alan Amond, who taught the honors humanities program and world history at Fresno High School, which was a three-year-high school. And I took his world history course my first year at high school, and I was in his honors humanity class [inaudible] and it was one of these five... English and history. It was a big deal at Fresno. And Amond was a guy who had been, during the great Red Scare, had inspectors from school board sitting in classrooms, monitoring what he said [inaudible], and that is what he was, Quaker. But in any case, he rooted all things in me. And then my freshman year at Stanford, a man named Richard Grafton, was instructor in our [inaudible] history of Western civilization, freshman fourth. And he was also the faculty president of [inaudible] and he has been a lifelong friend. And yeah, really hope he makes the transition to president. SM (00:06:30): And the third? DH (00:06:32): Pardon? SM (00:06:33): Was there a third? DH (00:06:33): A guy named Charles Breckmyer. SM (00:06:35): Okay. DH (00:06:35): He was in the poly-sci department at Stanford, and ran the special honors program in social processes. SM (00:06:39): Very good. DH (00:06:39): I studied with him the last years at Stanford. SM (00:06:51): You have seen this over the years, particularly in the 90s, Newt Gingrich would oftentimes, especially when the Republicans came into power in (19)94, Newt had a lot of comments about the (19)60s generation and the boomers. And George Willis, whenever he gets a chance, he gets a shot at writing about him as well, and really cutting him in many different ways, in a negative way. What are your thoughts on critics of the boomer generation, who say that all the problems that are currently happening in our society today, with the breakdown of the American family, the differences between people of color, the confrontational victim type mentality, be blaming this generation for all of the excesses, the drugs? And just your thoughts on this criticism. DH (00:07:45): Well I mean, I think they are way off the mark. I think quite the contrary. As far as I am concerned, saved the country from itself, at a time when it desperately needs. America has become a far better fight by virtue of our country. The problem here, was not our country. My question to a lot of these guys is what are you so goddamn upset about? What exactly is it that make you describe us as a syndrome? And I think the fact of the matter is, is that we exposed the way of doing business in the United States that contradicted everything the United States is supposed to stand for. And that they do not think that citizens ought to have the power to do that, and we did it. And come on, we are the ones that put the end to desegregation. And we stopped a war in which more than two million people were killed for no good reason. And none of these critics of us, have come up with a good reason for having done all that stuff. Not yet. Not after all these years, they have not come up with something. We stood up in the face of power when somebody had to do that, because we were engaging in wholesale madness, and that was immoral. For my generation, you have to remember, the formative intellectual experience was the Holocaust and the aftermath of the West judgment of Nazi Germany, and the Nuremberg prescient. And the intellectual issue when I was a freshman in Stanford, was framed by Hannah Arendt. SM (00:09:34): Oh, yes. DH (00:09:34): A philosopher who wrote a book called Eichmann in Jerusalem, which was supposedly an account of the trial of Adolf Eichmann after, and hiding in Argentina, and whisked away by the Israelis [inaudible] And the basic question that grabbed all of us in all that, was not, "What do you do about the Germans?" That they were clearly evil and had to be addressed to set. The issue was, "What do you do if you are a German?" And I think my generation spent a lifetime trying to answer that question. And I think that a number of us answered the bell when somebody in the country had to do so. And so obviously, I think the critics [inaudible] which continued to do so. And I would remind you, that these were largely guys who got through this entire period of history without having to pay any price. Say what you will about my position, I did not hide behind anything. I ended up in... Spent most of 20 months in prison in a maximum security institution. Four months in isolation cell. I paid my price, and I know my veteran friends paid their price. And where was Newt Gingrich's price in all this? How did he escape that, and how can he stand back now and call on us to endorse more innocent killing? Come on. By all the basic rules of the (19)60s, he passed, or failed to pass the debt. He did not stand up for what he supposedly was for. Fine, you like the war? Go fight it. They all had that option, and none of them took it. And so for me, a lot of that is just bullshit. SM (00:11:55): David, you raised a great point, because you paid a price. And if you remember, Dr. King would always say, when he was alive, that, "There is a price one has to pay for your beliefs." And he paid it by going to jail and everything. And a lot of people that had his side, he would say that, "Well, you may go to jail for this. You may have to stand up for what you believe in, and then pay a price." Do you feel that the boomer generation understood that there is a price one has to pay for standing up, and maybe this is why so few did in their adulthood? Your thoughts on some of your peers who may have, when they were young, stood up, but have not stood up since? And then the majority that may have never stood up. DH (00:12:47): Well, I think what to say about the generation, is that we were all, at the very least, witnesses to people paying prices. It is impossible to go through that historical experience without having encountered that information. There was just too much was being played out in too many places. And I am not in a business to make judgment about people's responses during the (19)60s, but I set out to be in a position so that when I got to 63 years old, I can look back on it and feel good about what I did, and I do. And I did something, and that shaped me for the rest of my life, and I am good with that. I am glad. But I do think the lesson we ought to have learned in all this, is that democracy goes no further than the citizenry will take it. And you believe in something, you have to act on it. [inaudible] is what you do. So either Andy up, or you are not a player, as far as I am concerned. I think that failure, on the part of America, to maintain that kind of intensity about their democracy, is one of the reasons we have got the load of band that we have got. SM (00:14:28): Is there one specific event that you think may have had the greatest impact on this boomer generation? DH (00:14:34): I think the most seminal and formative, was the assassination of John Kennedy. That turned the world on... For me, that is the day that [inaudible] SM (00:15:01): Do you feel that... When did the (19)60s begin, and when did it end? DH (00:15:06): Well, it ended, as far as I am concerned, there are two possible end dates. One is 1973 [inaudible] and one is 1975, when [inaudible] was evacuated, and Saigon fell for inmates. In the beginning, I think... I would begin the (19)60s maybe with the emulation of Buddhist Monk in Saigon, somewhere in [inaudible] kind of the Jeremiah, or teller of things to come. Unbelievable event coming from a place nobody imagined much about, would tell us all what was coming. SM (00:16:16): What was it about the 1950s? Because a lot of times, when we look at the boomer generation, we concentrate on the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and when they were in high school and college, and early adulthood and their twenties. What about those (19)50s? What role did that did? What was happening in the world at that time, shaped their lives? Because when you look at the... And I am only about a year younger than you are, and when I look at the (19)50s, I know we went through the fear of a nuclear attack all the time, and we heard all about the Cold War and the nuclear bomb destroying us all in one shot. But as children, we grew up watching Howdy Doody, Hop Along Cassidy, all the Westerns. We learned that Native Americans were always the bad guy. Mickey Mouse Club. It seemed like there was a lot of happiness going on in America, and whether it was hiding the bad things, we all knew what was going on in the South, what was going on with African Americans. And the civil rights movement was happening at that time. But what about the (19)50s, and its shaping of the psyche of this group of young people, that as they went into the (19)60s, everything changed? DH (00:17:34): Well, I was born two aspects of the (19)50s. And one is, I do not know that I would describe it as a lot of happiness going all around. There was a lot of formulaic living going on. I mean, remember, this is... America in 1956, the country with no options. So if you were a young man growing up in Fresno, California, who I was, who had a choice in John Wayne or John Wayne or John Wayne. It was a remarkably singular culture. And so part of the [inaudible] exploded out of my generation, was just the desire for options, that we had to go out and make ourselves. There was not just one way to live, and that there were lots of ways to live. Some people had lived thousands of different ways. And to continue to participate in a culture which assumed that there was only one way to live, was an enormous mistake. And I think that was the breakout. And there was that inner hook for a long time. People wanted something more. And I think the second thing, was the degree to which our generation believed in the (19)50s. My experience was, most people I was in the movement with, were people who got A's in high school. These were not people who did not buy in. These were people who bought in enormously. We believed that America would never go halfway around the world, to kill people to no good reason. No. I mean, that was an article of faith. I grew up watching people [inaudible] on television. My father was off in the army reserve the entire time I was a child, and my brother was a captain in the second air force, so I bought in. When I was in the fourth grade, I wanted to go to West Point. When I was in the eighth grade, I wanted to be an FBI agent. And I think my experience proved the entire generation. And it was the process of discovering that the bill of goods you had been sold, was a bill of good. We had been told, and believed, and placed our faith in an America that did not exist. I mean, for me, then I crossed the Mason Dixon line on my way to Mississippi, and saw my first black entrance and white entrance, and all that rigmarole certification. It was just, I mean, instantly clear to me that I had been fucking lied to. And I was somebody in my generation who had more contact with black people than almost all my peers, because my father had coached a little league baseball team on the black side of Fresno. Black Fresno, just anywhere West of that. And my father coached a team over there, and I went over for the baseball. And one of three whites. So I at least had a working relationship with black peers, though limited, but far more extensive than by other people [inaudible]- SM (00:21:16): Do you feel... Yes. Again, I am only a year younger than you, and I can remember when my dad won a trip to Florida. We went three straight years in (19)57, (19)58, (19)59, in April. Took two weeks off in school. And I remember, I lived up in the Ithaca Cortland area, and we all had nice homes, nice streets and everything. Then as we drove farther and farther South, we drove on these two-lane highways, that the roads that were... I saw all the poverty. I saw a different America, and it was kind of shocking to me. It was shocking. And so I am talking about, we were given a bill of goods. Do you think that many of these boomers had this false sense of security? And then when they got into the (19)60s, the reality of what America truly is, really hit them in the face, and that is why they wanted to make it better? DH (00:22:11): I think everybody that went through the (19)60s, had eye-opening experiences. I mean, of all different sorts, but they all amounted to seeing an angle on life, and on America, that we had never imagined growing up. SM (00:22:33): What if you were to list some of the strengths and weaknesses of the generation, some characteristics and qualities that you admire and maybe do not admire, what would they be? DH (00:22:43): Oh, well I think that we possessed courage and openness. SM (00:22:55): And David, could you speak up just a little bit too? Thanks. DH (00:23:06): I think on the list, on the plus list, I would put courage and openness, altruism, imagination, sincerity, curiosity. Negative list, I would put... Well, one of the things I would put, would be narcissism as an episodic piece. I think [inaudible] people got enamored. SM (00:24:21): Yeah. A lot of the boomers felt that they were the most unique generation in American history. I am sure you have heard this before. Some of my peers who were boomers, still feel they are. Your thoughts on just an attitude that many of the young people back in the (19)60s and (19)70s had, that they were the most unique, because they were going to change the world and make it better. No other generation ever did. And then some attitudes as they have grown older. DH (00:24:48): Well, I do not recall at the time, being caught up in making historical judgments about the generation. To me, that was part of overlay. SM (00:25:07): How important were the boomers in all the movements? We are going to get in a little bit more about the anti-war movement, and of course the civil rights movement was really happening as boomers were becoming in their late teens and twenties. But how important were the boomers in all of these movements, as it really came to fruition in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, and have been ongoing today? And I say not... We are talking about the women's movement, the environmental movement and the Native American, Chicano, gay and lesbian movements. Just your thoughts on the issue of movements, and how important this generation was in their creation. DH (00:25:48): Well, I think it is one of our signatures. SM (00:25:56): Want to go into any detail? DH (00:25:57): Well, we were all tested by the notion of organizing. And organizing was one of the things people did in 1960, out of those that organized. But to me, the word boomer, is one of the things that defined the 1960s. For the entire time, I was part of [inaudible] state of political opposition, that at the beginning, had entered the civil rights. And full wide crane of uprising. So yeah, I think that... I suppose, if I try to look to how that inherited, the thirties were, of course, a big movement time as well. And that was our current generation. SM (00:27:20): There was obviously a very big generation gap going on at the time between boomers and their parents, the World War II generation. Your thoughts on the impact that the boomer generation has had on their kids, and their grandkids. And we are now dealing with two generations beyond the boomers. We had the generation Xers, that seemed to really have a problem with boomers, in many ways. I worked on university campuses, and we actually had programs where we brought them together. And then the millennials, which are currently today's students, seem to be very close to their parents, and there does not seem to be any generation gap at all. Just your thoughts on the generation gap at that time, and the impact that boomers have had on the lives of their kids and grandkids, if any. DH (00:28:09): Well, certainly I pulled things on my parents, as I was going to. And there was a generation gap on some level. It was a transition between worlds. So I felt bad. I did not feel it in much of a personal sense, although my father begged me not to do what I was going to do about that. [inaudible] taking on the government was easy, the hard part was telling your parents. SM (00:29:02): How about the influence that, what have boomers done with their kids? I am basically leaning toward the issue of activism, and whether they are... DH (00:29:12): Well, I have kids. One, who is currently 40, and one is currently 26 [inaudible] And while both of them have good politics that they care about [inaudible] neither of them became political organizers. Son is 40, my daughter is 26. SM (00:29:36): David, could you speak up just a little bit too, so I can catch? Okay. DH (00:29:54): Anyway, both my kids got good politics, but they did not become organizers and had no interest in it. And in fact, my daughter kind chose not to, kind of feeling it out for a while. SM (00:30:14): What do you think would be the lasting legacy of the boomers? They are now starting to reach senior citizen status, and so they got a lot of years left to have an impact on America. But what do you think history books will say about that era and that time, and that generation? DH (00:30:33): Well, I can only say what I think they ought to say, which is, I think they ought to give us credit for significant things. Not all of the same. First, is the end of segregation. For our generation, it was an enormous accomplishment that [inaudible]- SM (00:31:06): David, you are being cut off. DH (00:31:08): And has meant, I think more, to the shape of modern America than almost anything else. Second, I think that we opened up the university in ways that it was not before. Are now far and more open and original and imaginative way they approach learning, than they ever were at our time. And I think that was largely because of criticism that those... That era brought challenges to it. Third thing, I think that we gave America options. Certainly, if you look around us today, there are 400 television channels. They were all upstairs on my TV. Where we had basically three television options, they were now enormous. And we introduced the notion of spirituality, the notion of insight, of enlightenment, of a different kind of cultural approach that was responsible for making the lives of everyday Americans far more rich, fulfilling than they ever would have been otherwise. Fourth thing we did is, at a moment of the greatest challenge, the ethos of our democracy and one of the greatest abuses of power ever conducted by an American government, namely the Vietnam War, and something that stands out in our history as an obvious war crime, again, that, we stood up and stopped. Three enormous assumptions. And in so doing, changed the relationship between government and citizenry forever. Hey, that is a lot. That is a hell of a lot. And most of that was done before we were 30 years old. So there is something special about that, our particular relationship. But it was a generational thing, and that was not our choice. That was the society, defined by the fact that the only people who were ever asked, who were ever forced to pay a price for that war that demolished out generation, were all under 26. They were not going into anybody else's neighborhood, grabbing people and cocooning them into the military. I think that is a defining experience for the entire time. SM (00:34:29): That is interesting, David. I like your thoughts on this. When people of my age and your age talk about the Vietnam War in a college environment, with the current administrators or current students, it is as if... All we are trying to do, is we are nostalgic and we can never forget the times have changed, and let us move on, kind of an attitude. And what is interesting is, a lot of the people that run today's universities, are boomers who may have not been activists in their time, but they know what happened in those times and may fear the rise of activism again, on university campuses. I have experienced this at all the universities I have worked at. Move on. That was part of history, but it was not now. But just your thoughts on that kind of an attitude that seems to be prevalent in America today, that when they criticize- DH (00:35:27): The [inaudible] is that... The implicit assumption there, is that somehow caring about the lives lived by your fellow human being, involving yourself, trying to minimize suffering, somehow a commodity that limited a certain period of history. Come on. These are what the culture called eternal truth, when we were practicing them. And I think... I am sure nobody is trying to make the (19)60s happen all over again. Good God, no. I had enough of the (19)60s when I was in the (19)60s. The real point is, how to take those values that motivated us then, that motivated people for hundreds of thousands of years of history, and how to take those and act them out in ways that address the dilemmas facing us as a people, and a civilization. God. What we need to have happen now, is addressing a far different kind of phenomenon. We are about to lose the planet. Civilization is about to flop, and somebody has to be able to step out and start making a sacrifice. It will be required for this to survive in anything we recognize today, as meaningful. All of it is talked over the horizon, but there are serious scientists who are saying things like, by the end of this century, the Earth's population will have been reduced from 9 billion to 1 billion, as a function of climate. Well, I do not know whether that is accurate or not. Maybe he only got it half right, but that is still... I mean, try and visualize half the people in your neighborhood are not alive anymore. That is catastrophic. SM (00:37:32): Wow. DH (00:37:33): And we are staring down the barrel of that, and paying no attention to it at all. The enemy here, is denial. SM (00:37:42): Yeah. It is interesting, because when you bring that up, and when people talk about Al Gore now, they talk about all the money he is making. I read about it. Oh, he is flying an airplane. He is not living his principles. They find any way they possibly can, to destroy an individual who may be trying to put his name out there to try to save the universe, or for a cause. They always try to find the Achilles tendon and the person who is making a plea, or being different than others in their thinking. DH (00:38:14): And I think it is also a function of a larger thing. Whatever political, whatever [inaudible] And that happened left, right, and sideways. SM (00:38:37): Right. This next question I want to ask, really deals with the issue of healing within the nation. Jan Scruggs, who was the founder of the Vietnam Memorial, wrote a book on, to heal a nation. That was the title of his book, When the Wall was Built. I am going to read this question to make sure I get it all correct, so that you hear it. Do you feel boomers are still having a problem from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth? Division between black and white, divisions between those who support authority and those who do not, division between those who supported the tropes and those who did not. You hear that all the time today. Of course, what roles the wall played in... And I know it has played a lot with veterans, but I am not sure if it was done much for the rest of the nation. And do you feel that the boomer generation will go to their grave, like many in the civil war generation, not truly healing from these divisions? Am I wrong in thinking this? Or has 40 years made the statement, time heals all wounds, the truth? DH (00:39:46): No, I think there is all kinds of outstanding accounts in this war that we have managed to sweep under the rug, by labeling it as a mistake. Mistake is a genius way to talk about it, because it can be a mistake, because it violated [inaudible] precedent, or it can be a mistake [inaudible] when we had the chance. It covers everything, and allows us to kind of fluff it off without ever taking moral responsibility for what happened, and about ever going through the exercise of trying talk to each other about what exactly did happen. And so I think there is lots of stuff out there. We let ourselves off, and not digest the experience. So there has never been a format for us to talk about it, except these kind shots fired off from the right wing every now and then, about the syndrome. There is no serious discussion about the war and what communications of it were. And so that means all the divisions are still out there. SM (00:41:21): I can remember, during Reagan's presidency, his whole effort was to bring America back to what it used to be. And then when George Bush Sr. became president, he was the one that proclaimed that the Vietnam syndrome is over. DH (00:41:34): Well I mean, Reagan was certainly frustrated. [inaudible] So there was one war we saved the country from. I think that, certainly George Bush Sr. [inaudible] I mean, what really happened there, was not about any syndrome being recovered from. Really here, it was the kind of balance of power in the society, in which the forces of the military were being held at bay by the experience of Vietnam War. And I think, certainly that those forces got empowered by George Bush Sr. And he did not make the mistake of trying to extend them in place [inaudible] But his son, I think is absolute triumph of that kind of [inaudible] And I think that filter is going to become increasingly correct, by virtue of the forces. It is how it should be. SM (00:43:17): Dave, let me change the side of my tape here. Hold on one second. DH (00:43:20): Sure. SM (00:43:31): All right, we are back. It is kind of a follow-up to that question on the healing. I took a group of students, about five, maybe six years ago, to Washington DC, before Senator Musky died. And he had just gotten out of the hospital, and these 14 students were some of the best student leaders on our campus. And we had a whole series of questions that we had picked to ask him. And many of them wanted to ask this question about the healing from the 1968 convention, because they had seen it on black and white tape and everything. And they wanted to know if we had healed as a nation from that. And we were waiting. And he had just gotten out of the hospital and he had been watching Ken Burns series on the Civil War. And when we asked the question, he kind of almost gave us a minute of total silence, and it was obviously a very emotional question for him. And then he finally answered, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And then he went on for about a 15-minute lecture on the Civil War and how the divisions in America at that time, were still part of the American scene. He was very upset for the loss of life, that over 400,000 people had died in that war, and was almost an entire generation of children that would never be born because of brother fighting against brother. Just your thoughts on that, as a person who was young in the early (19)60s, who went South and saw some of these terrible things of injustice in America in the 1960s. But if you go to Gettysburg, you still see a lot of things left at the tombstones. I go there four or five times a year, out of curiosity, just to see what is left. And on the confederate sides, there is still a love for the Confederacy. So just your thoughts on that. DH (00:45:26): Well, obviously that Civil War did not get resolved, because I was a 19-year old in order to try and clear that up again. That bondage has not ceased exist. And I resist strongly, the description of the Civil War, simply as brother fighting against brothers. Certainly that happened [inaudible] but not some random act where brothers felt they had to fight each other. This was because one set of people insisted on the right to buy and sell other people, as though they were cattle. That is why there was a Civil War. That is why 400,000 people died. And I consider it tantamount... I have been to South Carolina, where they fly that fucking stars and bars. As far as I am concerned, it is like walking in and seeing a swastika flag. SM (00:46:34): Yeah, you are right. DH (00:46:37): This is slavery we are talking about here. There is no great romantic Southern life. And I certainly feel that most retrograde parts of America are in the old Confederacy. And I am sure they do admire it, and I think that is much to the detriment of the country and the species of humanity. And I have a lot of friends South, who I certainly would not put in a lump with them, but that is what it was about. And let us not glorify this thing here. They have enough perspective to know now, just how obscene the jury segregation was, how much... We talked about terrorists. I mean, terrorists are people who walk into somebody's house, drag them out in the street and lynch them, because they are black. That is terrorism. And all those states South of the Mason-Dixon line, and a whole bunch of other ones who are not South, they try and nourish that and glamorize that. And they can go down to all the racetracks they want, with their stars and bars, but it does not make it any different than what it was. SM (00:48:07): Yeah. That is what is always intrigued me about when I go to Gettysburg, because I see so many cars from the South, and I know they love America and everything. But I drive on both sides, and the majority of the statues and monuments are on the Northern side. But it is the Southern side where things are left, and I am amazed there is still something going on here. And I think we know, even with President Obama in the White House, that we still got a long way to go in this country. DH (00:48:42): Well, it is not the jury segregation anymore. We have come a long way. But absolutely, I think that there are a lot of people still in the country, who cannot accept the notion that people who are not white, are just as valuable and just as important as people who are not. SM (00:49:03): One of the qualities... Another other big issue, beyond healing, is the issue of trust. There were so many leaders that lied to us when we were young, and of course, the leaders have lied probably throughout our history. But we all remember Eisenhower lying about the U2 incident on national television. We know about the Gulf and Tonkin with LBJ. We know about Watergate and all the lies and the enemies lists and everything that Nixon did. I have even read in recent years, about Kennedy and Vietnam, even though Sorenson's recent book basically states that he had nothing to do with the coup there. He encouraged the coup, but he did not want them to die. But still, there has been so many lies that come through, just about all the presidents. Just your thoughts on the shaping of the boomers as a not very trustful generation, and whether they have passed this quality of lack of trust onto their kids and their grandchildren. And I preface this question with one other item. I can remember being in... I went to Binghamton University, (19)66 to (19)70. And I can remember in my intro class in psychology, the professor saying to us in a lecture on trust, that if you cannot trust, you will not be a success in life. You have got to be able to trust somebody. Trust is a very important quality in a human being. Just your thoughts on whether maybe a quality within the boomer generation, is that they do not trust. DH (00:50:37): Well, I would not make that generalization. I think it is not that people lost their capacity to trust, it just became quite clear that, that trust was not an automatic. Issue is not whether we are willing to trust government, and somehow become a character flaw that cannot get around the issue of the process. No. I think what has happened, is what the process of trust is doing to trust. You do not get trust, simply because you have got a majority of people who would show up on November, the first Tuesday in November, in your congressional district. Simply because you do that, does not give some kind of automatic way over what the country is supposed to be. And they cannot simply hand over power. There is some things that you do not trust anybody, other than yourself, but that you have to trust yourself. So I would define it a little differently than that. I do not feel like I am not a successful person, but I think once burned... How many times do you have to go through that process, before you assume that it has a given, and not the other. So how many times do you have to be lied to before you start worrying that people are doing? I mean, I think it is a totally rational position, not the incapacity to trust. Trust each other [inaudible] some of my closest friends from those days. SM (00:52:39): As a history political science major, which I was years ago, I can remember that trust being a quality that... Not trusting your government is actually a good quality, because it keeps them on their toes. So that kind of feeling. I got a question here, because you are a great writer, by the way. DH (00:52:58): Thank you. SM (00:52:58): You are a great writer. I first came upon your writing when I bought the book Goliath, way back when it first came out. And then of one of your recent books, Our War. And of course Dreams, the one on Allard Lowenstein. Yeah, great books. And I wanted to ask a question on these three books. How do the three books, combined in your own unique way, define the boomer generation in their times, when you were young? Everyone has quality. And to me, when I have read them... And I have to reread your, Dreams Die Hard, because I read it years ago. But when I lived... Actually, I lived out in California, and I lived in Berlingame from (19)76 to (19)83. And I remember I bought the book, I think it was (19)82 when it came out. So I brought it there, and I read it there. And of course, I had Goliath already. But those books are really classics. They-they should be required reading, to me, in the classroom, some of them. Just your thoughts on how all three of them kind of define your generation. DH (00:54:12): Well, I think that they certainly... first, thanks for all the kind words. I feel that they are all great books, and I think they should be required reading. And each of them was, for me, an attempt at different times, and in different ways, to come terms with what that experience was. And so Goliath was obviously contemporaneous. That was me writing from the middle of it all. Basically, I wrote the book in the last three months before I went to prison. And Dreams Die Hard was a book that I could not-not write, when I got a phone call saying that Dennis Sweeny had shot Allard K. It was like, oh, God. SM (00:55:20): Yeah. DH (00:55:21): There was a kind of triangle, a life triangle there, between me and [inaudible] I write for a living, and there is no way I could pass that one off. And I felt the kind of obligation to do so, that it should come to this so many years later, needed an explanation. Only explanation was to go back to where it all started. And Our War was a kind of conscious effort, at age 50, to look backwards at the war that had defined my life, and try to talk about it as clearly as I could. And I think all of them framed part of the kind of overlap play, part of that experience of the generation. Absolutely. SM (00:56:19): Do you feel... I would like your thoughts on today's university. You made a comment on it, and I want you to respond to something that I feel very strongly about. And that is, that universities today, whether they be state universities or Ivy League schools or community colleges, or technical schools, I do not care where it is, are afraid of activism. They propose and love volunteerism, they love... And most students are in volunteer activities. But I have always felt that activism is the step beyond volunteerism. Activism is 24/7, whereas volunteerism may be a requirement, or doing something once a week or once every two weeks. And I say this, because we had an activist series at our campus, and Tom Hayden came, and we had the Bergen Brothers and we had a really good series. And people above us, said that this is not what our university's about, and encouraged us to stop the activist lecture series. From that point on, I figured there is something going on here. And I started thinking that maybe today's universities are run by boomers, or young people that are younger than boomers, that are afraid of a revival of what could happen again on university campuses, which is protests against the Afghan War, or any kind of an issue. They are afraid of them, of bringing back memories of disruption of classes and the university shutting down, students asking more questions than they should be asking. As Tom said when he was on our campus, understanding the difference between empowerment and power, and the students were shocked, but the administrator’s kind of said, oh, he should not have said that. And so just your thoughts on the universities today, and whether they fear activism. DH (00:58:17): Well, I think volunteerism, first, is an admirable activity. I probably would not want to come down against it, but I think that activism, I associate with more, rather than exercising altruism. It was obviously a good thing to do. It was really an attempt to exercise power, which is a very different kind of thing. And anybody who is in power, is going to have problems with the people who think that, that power ought to be shared out. Nobody likes to give it up. And I think certainly that most... I assume, amongst college administrators, there is this boogeyman, which is the 1960s. [inaudible] authority of college administrators, which shall never before. And the modern university has become increasingly incorporated. And so I think everything gets determined on the basis, largely, of how it is going to affect fundraising. And retired political organizers are not doing great a source of funding for- SM (00:59:35): Yeah, you are darn right. DH (00:59:45): And so I think it is a character of the modern university. And on one hand, it has become a far better and more responsive institution, in that it has opened its intellectual horizon in ways... Were not the case when I was... I mean, nowadays [inaudible] can basically write their own majors, on any subject they can make a case on. God, you would kill for that in my era. That was one of the things I spent hours with administrators, screaming back and forth about it, disagreeing back and forth, when I was student body resident at Stanford. And hey, when I got elected, part of my platform was equal rights for men and women students. SM (01:00:35): Go into that a little bit. Tell me a little bit about your student experience at Stanford. DH (01:00:38): Well, I was there as far as Stanford pushed to open itself to the middle class, to take a leap from finishing school for California [inaudible] to Harvard and West. And to do that, they made an opening for the middle class [inaudible] For example, at my high school in Fresno, California, public high school in Fresno, they took seven members of my graduating class. That is unheard of. You never heard of people going to Stanford the year before that. All of a sudden, they started opening up. I was part of it, had the scholarship on there. And I felt that the university at the time, was a real high bound kind of institution. My election as student body president of Stanford, was remarkable on many fronts. First of all, I did not want to run for president, and someone approached me to run for president, saying I had all these things about education [inaudible] why do not I run for student body president? [inaudible] they gave me a guarantee that I would not get more than 500 votes. And we went out and talked about student regulations, about the University of Scholars. And there were [inaudible] administrators and faculty [inaudible] And cooperation for Vietnam, to get the legalization of marijuana in there. But we had a whole list of things, and right at the top, was the rights for students. Woman stayed out all night, and men stayed out all night. [inaudible] And so I ran for student body president, I talked about some stuff, and if I had won the election in Berkeley, nobody would have noticed. But a place like Stanford, from conservative, for someone... They called me radical, was what I was called, in work shirt and Levis, vest mock, barrel in my ear. If I could feel like Stanford National News. And I spent the next year having discussions with faculty administrators who were bizarre, to say the least. I can remember in the discussion with a group of faculty administrators, [inaudible] five faculty, five students all met. And we started arguing about women having the same rights as men. Essentially, the English department... And basically said, "Hey, if we do this, do not start having sex." And I said, I am sorry to tell you this, but that horse is already out of the barn. It happened. But can you imagine that discussion today? SM (01:05:10): Geez. Oh my gosh. DH (01:05:13): We have learned something. But by and large, the issue of empowerment and who are the legitimate members of the community, and how should their interest represented the decision making, has basically progressed not one width. Lots more options available, but students still do not make great choices. SM (01:05:45): David, what were the books that students were reading when you were a college student, and maybe in the early part of the movement too? Were there books written by authors that really influenced you and some of your peers? DH (01:06:01): Yeah, it is funny. I mentioned Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem. Well, for entertainment, we all read Fonica. SM (01:06:14): Right. DH (01:06:14): And Richard Brodigan, he had a lot of [inaudible] civilization. Yeah [inaudible]- SM (01:06:14): Yeah. DH (01:06:14): A big one for me, and a lot of people I knew, was also Gandhi, an autobiography. SM (01:07:20): Do you remember the books, the Greening of America, by Charles Reich, and The Making of a Counterculture, by Theodore Roszak? DH (01:07:26): I remember Theodore Roszak's book, and that was [inaudible] around the time. Greening of America was never a book that... SM (01:07:42): Right. DH (01:07:42): If I recall, right at the end of the 1960s. SM (01:07:49): Yep. DH (01:07:50): Oh, Paul Goodman [inaudible] SM (01:07:53): Oh yeah, that is a big one. Yep. Who were the favorite musicians, and how would you define how music defined the boomer generation, or vice versa? Because when we are talking about the music of this period, we are not only talking about rock and folk, we are talking about the Motown sound. They are all kind of combined here. But when you think of the (19)60s and you think of the boomer generation, who are the musicians that you most admired, and you think had the greatest impact on the generation? DH (01:08:29): Well, there is one, hands down. [inaudible] Dylan was a poet at the time. Not like that. SM (01:08:37): Who was that now? DH (01:08:41): Bob Dylan. SM (01:08:41): Oh, yeah. DH (01:08:42): And he was poet at the time. And so what he came close to... Influence that Dylan had on everything. All of us have grown up in [inaudible] The first concert I ever went to see was when Ray Charles came to Fresno. And part of the identification people had with black people, was the music and all the big [inaudible] SM (01:09:41): Yeah. I tell you. Was there a rock group that was your favorite? DH (01:09:45): Well, there was... I love the Beatles. How could I not? They were phenomenal. And I was on more intimate terms with the San Francisco band. And so when I was a freshman at Stanford, [inaudible] right off campus, and [inaudible] and one of his regular acts was this Jerry Garcia. SM (01:10:28): Oh, yeah. DH (01:10:29): Then became Warlock [inaudible] and then became the Grateful Death. SM (01:10:43): Yeah. DH (01:10:43): And when I ran for student body president, we had a rock concert, a local stamp stand, and to get the amplifiers speakers that we needed to do the concert [inaudible] SM (01:11:00): Oh my gosh. Great slicks. Yep. DH (01:11:05): That was all done. That was 1966, for that stupid, going to San Francisco with a flower in your hair song. SM (01:11:16): That is Lee Hazelwood. DH (01:11:19): Haight-Ashbury got discovered. SM (01:11:20): Right. DH (01:11:21): And that little episode got [inaudible] But before that [inaudible] when I got into it, in my first kind of... At the same time I was listening Bo Diddley, I was also listening to Joan Baez. SM (01:11:50): Yeah, of course, you were married to her. Yep. DH (01:11:52): Yeah. SM (01:11:54): Yeah, I got a lot of her albums. DH (01:11:58): Yeah. So all the music passed through me, but Bob Dylan was the man. I mean, he is the only guy who I was waiting. SM (01:12:12): What was really interesting, is that three weeks ago, my brother went to physical therapy over in Bucks County, and I just accompanied him. And I am sitting out in the hallway, and there is this old couple, older couple, they were in their (19)80s, that came in. And the gentleman walked right in, and I got to talking to the lady, and I was wearing a Kent State shirt. And she started talking about Kent State in 1970. And then she said, "Oh, by the way, my son was married to Grace Slick." I did a triple flip. Her son was married to Grace Slick for I think 11 years. And he was the sound person for that particular group. And now, I guess he is the sound person for a hotel in Atlantic City and the Wacovia Center here in Philadelphia. But he was the first husband of Grace Slick. What a small world. She said, "Oh, Grace was so nice. We had her over to dinner." So it is a very small world at times. You have obviously been to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, when you saw it for the first time, what feelings were going through your mind? DH (01:13:27): Say that again. SM (01:13:28): The Vietnam Memorial in Washington, what impact really, has that had on healing the nation, in your thoughts? And secondly, what was the impact when you first saw it for the first time, that it had on you? DH (01:13:43): Well, I do not think it healed anything, but the first step towards healing is recognition of what the experience was. And I think it is a remarkable memorial for that. Recognizing had a kind of fundamental [inaudible] I consider it beautiful, and extraordinarily impressive. SM (01:14:19): What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? DH (01:14:24): Well, probably less than they do to most people, because I was in the isolation cell block when Kent State happens. So word of it... And things like the Cambodia demonstrations and [inaudible] they were remote. SM (01:14:54): How about Watergate? And then when I say these terms, the influence you think they had on the boomer generation, you personally, but mostly the boomer generation. DH (01:15:07): Well, Watergate was enormous. And the experience of it, whether it impacted or not, is another question. But the experience of it, was that we had finally won one. [inaudible] And I was up, dealing with... Of course, tried for war crimes. And Henry Kissinger was one of the worst people ever. SM (01:15:38): How about Woodstock? DH (01:15:42): Another one of those really remote things to which I have become associated, basically because when my wife, in her song on Woodstock, dedicated to me off in prison. And that made... That cut made the movie. So to me, Woodstock was so far off, not a particular interest. SM (01:16:07): How about the year 1968? DH (01:16:09): The year (19)68? Well, I was here when things started to come apart. And that is when they really... Of course, dominated by the [inaudible] Particularly, Martin Luther King. SM (01:16:31): When you think of these two terms, what do you think of the hippies and the yippies? DH (01:16:39): Well, hippies, I think of Haight-Ashbury, and the first time I walked down Haight-Ashbury in late [inaudible] So that is what I think of hippies. Yippies, I think [inaudible] SM (01:17:00): Right. Students for Democratic society and the weatherman. DH (01:17:08): Well, I always have big feelings about SDS, on the one hand. And SDS is kind of an umbrella organization that was different at every campus [inaudible] But a lot of the SDS national organizers who operated in California at the time, had a real problem. [inaudible] So I have an unmixed feeling about the weathermen. SM (01:17:52): Could you speak up again, David? Because I cannot hear you very good. DH (01:17:54): The weatherman, I do not have mixed feelings about the weatherman. My feelings about them are very clear. I think the guys' full of shit. That they distorted the movement, and they represent... The worst part of that is, I resent them being somehow a symbol of any sort of the movement. It had nothing to do with it. SM (01:18:26): Yeah. Yeah, I know President Obama is getting criticized because of Bill Ayers and the links to him. The Vietnam veterans against the war? DH (01:18:37): Well, I organized with the PVA After I get out of prison, to put together several projects. One of our partners. I had a lot of close friends. SM (01:18:55): The Richard Nixon's enemies list. DH (01:19:02): Pitiful. SM (01:19:05): I have had some actual... A couple interviewees who said, "I am honored to have been on it." DH (01:19:09): Fine. SM (01:19:15): The last part of the interview is just responding to some of the personalities of the period. DH (01:19:21): Okay. SM (01:19:21): And some of the terms. Your thoughts on Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. DH (01:19:28): Abbie Hoffman was one of the funniest guys I ever met, and I thought he was the real deal. Jerry Rubin, con-artist, phony. SM (01:19:39): Timothy Leary. DH (01:19:41): Another con-artist [inaudible] SM (01:19:57): How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern? DH (01:20:04): Well, I think they are both terribly flawed, but in the right place. SM (01:20:12): John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. DH (01:20:17): Well, John Kennedy was my childhood, so associated with him. And Bobby Kennedy, I associated with 1968. SM (01:20:30): How about Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew? DH (01:20:38): Despicable pairing. SM (01:20:42): How about the Black Panthers? Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Kay Leever, Angela Davis, that group. DH (01:20:51): Well, I have the advantage, having covered them as a journalist, when I started working [inaudible 01:21:03] and I think that they were also phonys. And not that they could back up some of what they did [inaudible] Yeah, so I am not a fan of the black panthers. SM (01:21:30): How about Lyndon Johnson and Hubert Humphrey? DH (01:21:35): Well, I think of Lyndon Johnson as a big mistake, with a capital M. Hubert Humphrey [inaudible] SM (01:21:48): Robert McNamara. DH (01:21:50): Tragic guy, on the one hand. [inaudible] But having said that, my other feeling [inaudible] SM (01:22:08): I did not quite get that last sentence. DH (01:22:23): A lot of kids went off to dive, because he did not speak up at the time. SM (01:22:27): Yep. George Wallace and Ronald Reagan. DH (01:22:34): Well, George Wallace [inaudible] Ronald Reagan, second coming of [inaudible] SM (01:22:51): How about Dr. Benjamin Spock and Daniel Ellsberg? DH (01:22:56): Well, I knew both of the guys, and I think both of them were right on, and both of them were played incredibly [inaudible] in turning the country around. Take my hat off to them. SM (01:23:14): Daniel and Phillip Berrigan. DH (01:23:15): [inaudible] SM (01:23:16): What about Barry Goldwater? DH (01:23:27): Looking back on him from this point, he seemed like such a benign conservative, that I wish [inaudible] SM (01:23:35): What about Dwight Eisenhower? DH (01:23:35): Everybody's daddy. SM (01:23:42): And then the other two presidents, Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford. DH (01:23:48): Well, the last one was a loser from the get-go, and first one became more of a loser [inaudible] become a big winner as an expert. SM (01:24:05): How about the women leaders? Gloria Steinem, Bella Abk, Betty Friedan, leaders of the Women's Movement. DH (01:24:18): [inaudible] Yeah, of course. SM (01:24:22): Yeah. Couple other terms from that period, because they were important to youth. Tet. DH (01:24:30): Well, great moment. Revelation. SM (01:24:46): How about people like Walter Cronkite and the news media at the time? How important were they to the boomers? DH (01:24:55): Well, Walter Cronkite, of course, had all the information. [inaudible] As for the rest of them, they learned as they went along. By the time it came, printing [inaudible] SM (01:25:30): How important were the college students in ending the Vietnam War, and what do you think was the number one reason? I know the helicopters went off in 1975, and for all intents and purposes, in 1973, we were out of there. But what was the ultimate reason why the Vietnam War ended? DH (01:25:56): Because it became impossible to continue. That is why it did not. The combination of public sentiment and military collapse. Remember, [inaudible] one out of four were killed. [inaudible] SM (01:26:26): Right. DH (01:26:26): [inaudible] SM (01:26:50): If you were before an audience of college students today, and I am sure you probably still go out and speak. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Victor Harris Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Harris, David, 1946- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Journalists; Authors; Political activists--United States; Harris, David, 1946--Interviews Description An account of the resource David Victor Harris is a journalist, author, and activist. He was an anti-war activist and the first person arrested for refusing to register for the draft in the late 1960's. He was the student government president at Stanford University. David Victor Harris is a journalist, author, and activist. He was a leading opponent of the draft during the Vietnam War, which began during his college days at Stanford University. As a young college student, he became involved in the Civil Rights Movement where he joined students from all over the country in the Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee's (SNCC) 1964 voter registration campaign in Mississippi. In 1966, he became president of the Stanford University student body, and as a leading critic of the draft, he formed a group called the Resistance. Harris was the first person arrested for refusing to register for the draft in 1968. In his later years, Harris has received journalistic praise for his non-fiction books on his experiences in the sixties and seventies along with other books connected to personalities or issues in those times. Harris died from lung cancer at his home in Mill Valley on February 6, 2023, at the age of 76. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.13 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 86:58 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2da27a67b2e9e15cd394a9ff307473bc.JPG ccbad31aab85b5d28d58c73d920d5f59 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1ad80d23a76d2e6aa6a12d0e5f8bb684.mp3 b454103bc863f1a8bb29a5d6ca4e9958 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Zupan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text David Zupan is an activist and former English teacher studying how to make documentaries that make a difference. So far, films he has collaborated on through Daniel Miller's class at the University of Oregon's Journalism School include <em>Hashtag Revolution</em>, <em>We Refuse To Be Enemies</em>, <span><em>Houseless Not Hopeless</em>,</span> and <em>Creatively Maladjusted</em>. He is affiliated with the Occupy Eugene Media Group in Eugene, Oregon. David Zupan is the founder and director of Progressive Voices which is dedicated to promoting the diverse voices and ideas and solutions critically needed in our global community today. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Civil Rights Movement; War draft; Vietnam War; Political activism; Baby boom generation; Generation gap.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Civil Rights Movement; War draft; Vietnam War; Political activism; Baby boom generation; Generation gap.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 229:06 Subject LCSH Political activists--United States; Radio broadcasting; Zupan, David--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Zupan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Zupan, David ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Political activists--United States; Radio broadcasting; Zupan, David--Interviews Description An account of the resource David Zupan is a veteran media activist and English teacher. He currently works as an independent contractor for IPA doing broadcast media outreach and database updating. He is also director of the Speakers’ Clearinghouse, which helps progressive policy analysts find speaking engagements at schools throughout the U.S. and Canada. David Zupan is an activist and former English teacher studying how to make documentaries that make a difference. So far, films he has collaborated on through Daniel Miller's class at the University of Oregon's Journalism School include <em>Hashtag Revolution</em>, <em>We Refuse To Be Enemies</em>, <em>Houseless Not Hopeless</em>, and <em>Creatively Maladjusted</em>. He is affiliated with the Occupy Eugene Media Group in Eugene, Oregon. David Zupan is the founder and director of Progressive Voices which is dedicated to promoting the diverse voices and ideas and solutions critically needed in our global community today. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.211a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.211b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 229:06 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/79185bb347e10e04e679d5a1ab12bcbf.jpg 85441262140cb0ea6d54bd2a0349c956 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ac14804b10bc7c6065d3852587be9d28.MP3 87e1e6256b1ed67b440c82946d4afd26 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dean Kahler Biographical Text Dean Kahler grew up on a farm in East Canton, Ohio. In his youth, Dean received criticism because he was a pacifist and did not support the war in Vietnam. After high school, he attended Kent State University, enrolling in the teaching program. On May 4, 1970, Dean was shot in the lower back by Ohio National Guardsmen who were sent to quell the protests on Campus that had occurred days prior. Dean lost his ability to walk, however, that did not stop him from pursuing a career in teaching and becoming elected to public office. Since then, Dean has been a leading force in the push for handicap reforms all across the state of Ohio. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:35:41 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Anti-Vietnam; Ohio; south; farming; Church; politics; 1960s; protest; gender roles; Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Kent State; pacifism; boomers; Kent State Shootings Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Dean Kahler Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 All right. First off Dean- DK: 00:04 Before we start? SM: 00:05 Yes, go ahead. DK: 00:05 Before we get in, question for you. Have you ever run into a woman named Meg Benke? BENKE? SM: 00:14 No. DK: 00:16 She is an administrator I think at the SUNY. SM: 00:18 Oh, ah was she, now was she was she in the (19)60s? DK: 00:28 Well, no-no, no, she is a little later than that. SM: 00:33 Oh, okay. DK: 00:34 But, you know, she is probably 10 years younger than I am. SM: 00:39 Okay. Now I- DK: 00:42 I knew her down in, I knew her down in Athens. SM: 00:45 Oh, okay, very good. DK: 00:47 Yeah. SM: 00:48 All right, let me let me start this. Now. Before we start, let me let me just rem- do you remember when you were working in Athens, when the gentleman who wrote "Born on the Fourth of July”- I forget his name now, golly. DK: 01:04 Ron Kovic. SM: 01:05 Yeah. Ron Kovic. He was arrested. DK: 01:09 Yep. SM: 01:09 Yeah, he, it was between (19)73 and (19)76. And I remember he was protesting there. And I remember I, one of the students brought a newspaper back from the main campus to the Lancaster campus and they really, boy they really roughed him up, geez. Even though he is in a wheelchair, I could not believe what the- you know that he was up. I guess he was arrested a lot. He is a very close friend of Bobby Mueller who found that Vietnam Veterans of America. DK: 01:35 Right, yeah. SM: 01:36 And-and he and Ron were two of the leaders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War too. So, you know, yeah, they are very close friends. My very first question, Dean is, could you tell me a little bit about your growing up year years, where you grew up, what your what your family did where you went to elementary and high school, your early influences in life before going to Kent State? DK: 02:00 Okay. Well, I grew up in a- outside of a little village and township called the Osnaburg Township, OSNABURG. And the post office we got our mail out was a little village called East Canton, which changed it is name from Osnaburg to East Canton during World War One because some people came out and burned down some barns in Osterberg because he thought everybody that lived out there with German. SM: 02:27 Oh, my gosh. DK: 02:29 Yeah-yeah. So that is how it kind of went from Osnaburg to East Canton. But I lived in Osnaburg Township, though. SM: 02:38 Right. DK: 02:39 But a farming community, basically. My, where I lived was on one of the very early subdivisions in in Osnaburg Township. The house I was lived, grew-grew up in was made or built in (19)23. So, it was the same age as my dad. And we lived about four football fields away from the family farm. SM: 03:05 Oh, wow. DK: 03:06 And my dad, my dad sold his interest in the farm to his brother. And they all did basically all the siblings. And he is the one that had the farm, and it is still a farm to this day. SM: 03:19 My golly. DK: 03:23 [Inaudible] SM: 03:23 Now when you were a kid, did you like work for your dad on the farm? Like, for example, the haying season and that kind of stuff? DK: 03:32 I worked for my uncle on the farm. And yeah, I did not just work in hay season, I worked in the winter season, the spring season, the planting season, the harvesting season, you name it, I was there. You know, go up, get up in the mornings to go milk cows, take a shower and eat breakfast at my Uncle Ray's house or Uncle Ray's and Aunt May's house [crosstalk], go to school. And that was my life basically, from that time I was 12 or 13 years old. SM: 04:04 Now- DK: 04:04 We are also involved, but I was also involved in the Church of the Brethren. And that is the Church of the Brethren. Which are the old, the old Dunkers. And for a frame of reference, the church that that is that Antietam is an old Dunker church. SM: 04:22 I know it well. DK: 04:24 An old Brethren Church. SM: 04:25 Yes. DK: 04:26 And yes, I have been there for two services that they have held in period costume and in period practices, with Brethren historians. But yeah, even though we were all pacifists, they were there helping to tend to the wounded no matter what color uniform they had on. SM: 04:47 Yeah, I have been the Antietam about three times, when I go to Gettysburg then I drive over to Antietam and- DK: 04:53 Yeah. SM: 04:54 -and one day I was there, it was a beautiful day and that the building you are talking about was across the street from the tourist center. And, and some of those historic shots from the battle itself. And they were comparing the how it looks today without a looked back in at the in- the year the Antietam took place. And wow, that was something else. DK: 05:14 Yeah, certainly was, certainly was. SM: 05:17 Now what was your, how many kids are in your high school? DK: 05:21 Let us see, I do not know about the high school, but every class had right around one hundred kids in it. And that is K through, or 1 through 12. We did not have kindergarten whenever I was kid till later on. SM: 05:33 Right. DK: 05:33 But we, my graduating class was ninety-six kids, and most of us so we all had farm backgrounds in that class. So I grew up in that kind of environment, an agricultural environment, but also grew up in a religious environment, because I was involved in the youth group, as a junior high and then a high schooler and was, you know, chairman of our youth group for one year, then I was on the district chairman or district youth group, and I was the chairman there one year as well, I would work your way up from treasurer, secretary, vice president, president. That sort of stuff. And then, so I traveled all over northern Ohio, [inaudible] district working with other youth groups and planning activities for everybody along the way, having district wide youth activities as well. SM: 06:31 Well, now that was, that was when you were in high school, correct? DK: 06:34 That was all when I was in junior high in high school, yeah. SM: 06:37 You now, has-has this continued, I mean, a different way as you became an adult? And you know, I know you had the tragedy at Kent State. But as you have gone on later in life, has religion plays a very important part in your life? DK: 06:52 Well, the principles of religion have played a very important part in my life, but because of the transient nature of human beings these days. I go to church whenever I can. And I, you know, I enjoy the religious aspect of the religious community that is there. But you know, I have lived in Athens, I have lived up here. And, you know, in Athens there were no brother churches down there. The closest one I think, was selling coffee. SM: 07:23 I know where that is. DK: 07:24 About six miles away from Athens, so. But I did not have any real religious community there. I went to the church right on Main Street there, right behind beside the City Hall of Athens- SM: 07:41 Okay. DK: 07:41 -what is the name of that church? SM: 07:43 I know it because I worked at the Ohio University of Lancaster campus, but I was on the main campus a lot for meetings. I was involved in the Human Relations Committee, and we had to go down there once a month for those meetings. DK: 07:56 Oh, yeah. SM: 07:56 And then I love a lot of the faculty members I got to know at the main campus, and I brought them back as speakers because they were some pretty renowned authors there. Particularly in the philosophy [crosstalk], particularly people like Dr. Hunt, who has passed away, but he was in the philosophy department. In high school, what activities were you involved in? DK: 08:18 Well, let us see. I was involved in the junior play, the senior play, I played football in high school. I was involved in intramural basketball because I could not walk and chew gum at the same time. [laughter] We did not have a speech or debate team, but I was on what was it? Why hot, Wi Fi or Wi Hi? Or, you know, sort of like Junior-Junior, Junior Achievement type-type of people. So. SM: 08:51 I got to, [crosstalk] I got to ask you this. If you were a football player, how come they did not recruit you for Ohio State? [laughter] DK: 08:59 Well, let us see. I was when I graduated high school and when I was playing high school football, I was six foot two and weighed 150 pounds. SM: 09:07 Now I understand. DK: 09:09 And I could barely walk and chew gum at the same time. SM: 09:12 [laughs] Very good. Yeah, as a high school student in the late (19)60s. What year did you graduate? High School? DK: 09:21 (19)69. SM: 09:22 Yep. As a high school student in the late (19)60s, what were your thoughts on the issues of the day? And I am not sure if you are, you know, you are working on the farm, you got activities, but whether that was touching you before you ever got to Kent State, and I am just- DK: 09:37 Yeah, it touched me long before I get to Kent State. One because of my activities with the Church of the Brethren. And the issue of pacifism. Two, because of the issues relating to women's rights- SM: 09:52 Oh, yeah. DK: 09:52 -and probably most importantly, the issue of civil rights. Our church was involved in all three of those in a pretty heavy way. All through the (19)60s. And so, I grew up with a mixed marriage family. My father was a member of the Democratic Party and a union member. And my mother was a member of the Republican Party. And she did not work until, I think when I was 16, when she started working when my brother went to, went to high school, or elementary school, and so I, my parents, sort of were like the-the ideal of the (19)60s, you know, we sat down at dinner table every night, and discussed the issues of the day. And you better have something to bring to the table, as opposed to just picking on your sister or whatever. SM: 09:54 Yeah, yeah, you know Dean, it is amazing how much we are alike in many ways. My, my mother was came from a strong Democratic family, my dad was a Republican. DK: 10:53 Oh, wow. SM: 10:53 Yep. And we had all while growing up until we start going off to college, and we were away and everything we had, we always were there together at the dinner table, and we discussed everything. Sometimes, sometimes my mom wanted my dad to speak up more, because he was always eating fast. And he ate so fast, he would get up the table, say "No we want you to stay here awhile" [laughs] because he was a fast eater, but talking about the issues of the day, and that is interesting. That is very interesting. And I do not think I asked you this question about your parents, did they argue over politics or did they just, you know- I do not ever remember my parents arguing ever about politics. DK: 11:33 Well, they never argued, but they discussed it regularly. And there was no, there was no dissension amongst them other than disagreement. And so, you know, when they argued they were talking about a particular issue, and their belief in it, whatever, whatever that issue was that particular day. So that was that was how I grew up debating politics as a kid, watching my parents discuss those issues, pros and cons of each of those, their positions on whatever the issue was, whether it be, you know, the Vietnam War, or, you know, the issue of pollution, the issue of women's rights, you know, all that kind of stuff that was happening in the (19)60s. SM: 11:51 Right. It is amazing. When you think about it, all the movements that were, you used the Civil Rights movement as examples to, on how to do things and nonviolent protests by via Dr. King, but there were also those who created violence. But you know, when you look at the Vietnam War, and Civil Rights, the women's movement, obviously the Native American, the Native American movement too and the gay and lesbian- DK: 12:41 Yeah. SM: 12:41 -the gay and lesbian movement, and Earth Day from (19)70. These are like major issues, and they were all evolving, all in about the same time where people were speaking up. DK: 12:51 Oh, yeah. SM: 12:53 So, when you were in high school, you were really up to date and what was happening in the world. DK: 13:01 We sure were, we sure were. In fact, my government teacher took about 40 of us, 40 of us on a school bus up to the University of Akron to see Richard Nixon give his speech in (19)68, when he came to the University of Akron, and since then I have run into hundreds of people who were there, who went to Kent State, who were, you know, students of Kent State along the way, we all compare our notes about what we saw and what we heard, and how we interpreted those that particular event. SM: 13:32 Wow. DK: 13:33 So yeah, it is pretty amazing that I am conversing with people for three, four or five years older than me who were at the, at the Nixon speech at the University of Akron. SM: 13:44 What-what were your thoughts, what were your thoughts in high school way before you get to Kent State, about student protesters? In terms of, you know, people just protesting in general. DK: 13:59 I thought it was an important thing to do. I mean, the- our founding fathers protested. And I believed a lot in what President- Dr. King had to say about being peaceful and knowledgeable, not only on the issue, but on your opponent, the person who has a different agreement than you do, different understanding. SM: 14:20 Right. DK: 14:20 And so, to me protesting is, you know, goes right along with apple pie. Ice cream and apple pie, you know, as the American dream. SM: 14:34 You know, when the when, in the beginning of the Vietnam War, most people supported it. But as time goes on, particularly in the mid- probably about the late (19)60s, things changed. And, and, you know, when you look at our Founding Fathers, they were a minority amongst Americans who, you know, did, you know, they wrote the Declaration of Independence and they wanted freedom still the majority of Americans were afraid of the British and kind of looked at the Founding Fathers in many ways as radicals. DK: 15:04 Yeah. SM: 15:04 And as a young man, I used to compare that when I saw some of the people protesting the Vietnam War, because in the beginning, they were in the minority. And then then finally, they evolved into the majority. So, it is kind of kind of a linkage in two different eras. DK: 15:18 Exactly, but also in my environment, in Church of the Brethren people who protested the war were a minority. But I have to look back at some of the original protesters that were there for, say, like the Civil Rights movement, and the civil- and then the war, the anti-Vietnam War movement. A lot of those were church ladies who are writing letters, who were doing bake sales, raising money to say, sent to, to the NAACP, all that sort of stuff. And, you know, they were like silent protesters, they were doing something. And a lot of people forget about the very first protests of the war in Vietnam were not college students. They were church ladies who believed in pacifism, thought this war was crazy. So. SM: 16:07 Yeah, there was a strong organization in Philadelphia in the (19)60s. And that was Mothers Against the Vietnam War. And they were old, they were older women, they were actually in their 30s and 40s. That we brought a couple of them to Westchester University. And, you know, they have all passed on now, but that was a great revelation hearing from them. DK: 16:29 Right. Well, you had the Quakers, Mennonites, Church of the Brethren, and whoever else was out there protesting, the old church ladies who were against this whole war. So, yeah. SM: 16:41 In your, in your view, what has been the overall impact of your generation, which is the boomer generation, on America? And I can ask, and I would say, the (19)60's generation, because not everybody went to college. And there were a lot of young people who were not going to college against the war, what, are your feelings toward your generation positive, more positive or negative? DK: 17:05 I think a positive, though I do have some disappointment in the fact that a lot of people still have to then continue to stand up against the corruption and, you know, the-the abuse of power by public officials. And not supporting people who were out there on the front lines. So yeah, I mean, I still have a positive impact, or view of my generation that we did a lot of things, we made a lot of change. But our follow through was a little bit short. We could have been a little more involved as we got older. But then again, you know, you worry about all these things, you know, you are paying taxes, your houses, your children. SM: 17:52 Right. DK: 17:54 So yeah. SM: 17:55 One of the things, one of the opportunities I have had when I have interviewed so many people is hearing some tremendous insights from things I did not even thought and one of them was Richie Havens. When he, when I interviewed him, when I talked about the boomer generation, he became very sensitive because he says, "I am a boomer, but I was born in (19)41." And he was about the third or fourth person that I interviewed of all the people I interviewed who got very sensitive about these putting years into, the boomers are from (19)46 to (19)64. The generation- DK: 18:29 Right. SM: 18:29 -Xers are (19)64, to (19)80. And Richie, Richie said, just made a comment, and I and it will be in the interview if we can get his daughter to okay it. That the spirit, the spirit of the (19)60s, the spirit of the times, it is not in years. It is based on the people, and he was he said, "I am born in (19)41. And I am as much a boomer as you are." DK: 18:54 Yeah, I agree with him there. That is 100 percent correct. Because, you know, all through that time, it was not just us young people. I mean, I looked around and I saw people with gray hair. SM: 19:03 Yes. DK: 19:04 Throughout their lifetime. So. SM: 19:06 You know, there is, there is some great senators there against the war, the some of the older ones, but there were also a few remember Dean, reading about the (19)60s or even before you went to Kent State. I heard these stories about that the leaders on college campuses were the older students that were in graduate school, and that the undergraduate’s kind of looked up to them as mentors and role models. And when you look at all the, when you look at Rennie Davis, Tom Hayden- I know Tom Hayden's first wife, Casey Hayden, and- DK: 19:36 Yeah. SM: 19:37 -they were all born between (19)37 and (19)45. DK: 19:41 Yeah-yeah. SM: 19:43 So, it is kind of you know, there is some truth to what Richie was saying. And actually, Todd Gitlin said in the interview, he said he- you know, "I-I like the fact that you are talking about the generation you grew up in, but if I hear one more time, you mentioning [laughs] our generation I might-might end the interview." Because he-he is in that group of (19)37 to (19)45. If you were to describe the students and the overall youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe in your own words, the qualities you admire the qualities you do not admire. And I am asking you some general questions before we get into, you know, more of the other things directly related to your life. But this is just being around your peers and your thoughts on them. DK: 20:34 Well, I admired their intellectual curiosity. And I admired the fact that the, although the lines between men and women were breaking down to the point where men did not expect the women just to do the copying, and the typing. And that we were growing in that sense of the word. And the fact that we were not afraid to speak up and, you know, point out the foibles and the injustices that our society was committing in our name. SM: 21:12 Do you feel that the some of the people within that generation were kind of naive? Because if you recall, it was even at Kent State, probably. I know it was at SUNY Binghamton and I know it was at Berkeley- I have talked to some people. Is that some are very serious and well-read, and others were naive and did not understand. Because there was, "We want to end the war," or "We want to stop this," but there was no alternative. They had no alternative except to criticize what was, they had no idea about what will become. DK: 21:45 Well, when you end the war, you know, obviously, you have got to take care of it, and deal with the country that is your you invaded. In this particular case, you are talking about Vietnam. And yeah, there was naiveite there, there is no doubt about that. But generally, people are willing to learn. So, you know, the naive, students, if they did anything, they learned a little bit as well, because there was so much to be learned around you. And it was easy to learn because it was in your face every single day. And if it was not in your face, you knew somebody who was in Vietnam. And so. SM: 22:29 Did you, did you lose any friends in the war? DK: 22:33 Well, I did not lose any friends in the war, but I had several who were wounded. And a classmate of mine, her brother was killed in Vietnam. He was about three years older than us. So yeah, I would say that would have been (19)60, (19)65 or (19)66. Because I remember what she was pulled out of algebra class. SM: 23:00 Oh, wow. That would have been, that would have been sad. Do you did you, in your family, what we heard a lot about back in the (19)60s and (19)70s was this generation gap. Was there a generation gap in your family at all about the war or any of the issues? And or if not in your family, maybe some of your friends and their families? DK: 23:23 Oh, yeah. I saw it all around me. Also, my father did not like the fact that I was [inaudible] I was a pacifist. He thought it was my duty to be involved in the military, get drafted and or join because he was drafted in World War Two. And, you know, he fought in the Pacific. And then, you know, my neighbors. Whenever they started hearing about my views on pacifism, they, you know, they would make comments about that. They did not think it was right. Some of my colleagues, my high school colleagues called me a coward or [inaudible] sort of stuff. SM: 24:06 Wow. DK: 24:08 Even though I played you know, I was starting tackle on the football team. [laughter] SM: 24:14 And you could not run if you are chewing gum, right? [laughs] DK: 24:19 Right. I can take four or five steps and knock somebody down, you know. SM: 24:24 Yeah. DK: 24:25 When you are farm boy, you do not have an ounce of fat on you, [inaudible] SM: 24:29 Right. Now, how did you choose Kent State? DK: 24:34 Well, it was a long-distance phone call from my parents. [laughs] SM: 24:40 Really? DK: 24:42 Well, no. I wanted to be a teacher. So, they had a real good reputation for being an education college. It used to be a formal school at one point. SM: 24:51 Right. DK: 24:53 They definitely know how to [inaudible] teachers there. SM: 24:57 Yeah, well, I cannot believe how big that school is growing right now if we get back into the questions, but I in the last couple of times I have been there, there is new buildings going up everywhere. And downtown. You are not going to recognize it eventually. With all the- DK: 25:11 Oh yeah, the downtown has been totally remodeled. [inaudible] SM: 25:17 Yeah, it is a growing university with more and more students attending as well. I [crosstalk] have a- go ahead. DK: 25:27 Okay. But good reason for that growth. What is Kent surrounded by? Akron, Canton, Cleveland, Youngstown? SM: 25:34 Yes. So, a lot of people. DK: 25:38 Yeah. SM: 25:40 What is that up to now in numbers? DK: 25:43 Well, on the main campus, they are right around 21, 22 thousand. But that is not including the-the branch campuses in East Liverpool and, oh God Tuscarora County, and Stark County and. There is another one up near [inaudible] up in Geauga County. SM: 26:04 Okay. DK: 26:04 As well, so there are at least four branch campuses with around 5000 students in each one. SM: 26:12 That is a lot of students. I know, you know, Ohio universities survived in the early (19)70s because of Lancaster and Zanesville, and I think Chillicothe. Ohio, the Lancaster campus, I think has 2200 students now I think they are pretty much 2200, 2500 students. But-but Ohio University in the early (19)70s, they were up close to 18,000. And I think they went down to about 12,500 or 13,500 after the (19)60s. And so- DK: 26:41 Right, they did for a while. SM: 26:42 Yeah, so there was a lot of things going on there. Now, this is just a general question here. And I know you may have already said some things on it. In high school and college that you support and participate in protests against the war in Vietnam and other protests. And just wondering, how did you feel about- you already answered that. How do you feel about protesters after arriving at Kent? DK: 27:04 Yeah, I went to a couple of protests, one of them was outside of the Student Union. And there was about 30, 30 of us there. I did not have any signs, but they had signs. So, I used one of their signs. But there was a group that was standing there about eight or ten guys, they were sorority brothers. And they will in their Izod shirts and whatever kind of golf shirts, they were wearing-wearing a gulf button up and shut, trying to shut us down. We are trying to, you know, march in and also to talk about the issues of the day. And I went to a couple others that were in the evening, and small protests of 15 or 20 people. And there was not any counter protesters. I have gone to those as well. So yeah, they were there. I wore a peace button or peace sign on my shirt every day. And people knew my position on that just by checking out the button on my shirt. SM: 27:29 Right. Yep. DK: 28:06 So, yeah. SM: 28:06 Yeah. Well, you know that that whole description of the-the fraternity guys with their Izod or polo shirts, whatever it might be. It is so true. It was the case at Ohio State when I was there in graduate school. It was the case of, at SUNY Binghamton when they were we- actually were banned from SUNY Binghamton. We did not have fraternities or sororities, when we were there, there was no way it was ever going to be passed. And of course, anybody who knows the free speech movement at Berkeley knows that the people that were those biggest threats toward the protesters were not the police. They were the [laughs] fraternity guys. So, when you, before you came to campus, you obviously were aware of some of the other major protests that were happening around the country. What, you know, the takeover at Columbia, the free speech, [crosstalk] the free speech movement at Berkeley at (19)65, (19)66. Certainly, the takeover by Native Americans of Alcatraz, I know Jane Fonda was there for that. And of course, the Cornell University in (19)69, when members of the Black Panther Party took over the union and they had guns. What was your thoughts on all these different protests? These were major happenings, some were peaceful, some were not. DK: 29:26 Well, I think it is important so that people would know that those people out there disagreeing with the White House policies in this particular case. And I thought it was great that they were doing it, it was important, it got a message out and let people know that there is a large portion of people who were going to be cannon fodder for the military who did not like this particular war. I mean, it is not that that they were against all wars. They were against this particular war, unlike my religion, which is against all war. And so up, you know, but it is important to realize that, you know, as young people are, who were studied, they were quick to learn. And they learned that there is this very [inaudible] what we were doing in Southeast Asia. That was important to let you know, the older generation know that we were not going to go peacefully into the night. And I agreed with them. I thought it was a good idea, I am not. I was always a person who believes in peaceful protest, but it was important to protest. And a little thing about Cornell, two years before the protests at Cornell, my church had their annual youth conference, which happens every four years nationwide, and I was on the Cornell campus for 10 days. SM: 30:48 Oh, wow. DK: 30:49 At that particular time. SM: 30:50 That is my neck of the woods. DK: 30:52 Yeah. And Bob Dylan was supposed to play there. But I think that was when he was still recuperating from his motorcycle accident. SM: 31:00 Oh, okay. DK: 31:02 Yeah-yeah. SM: 31:03 Here is a little tidbit. One of the African American leaders of that very serious protests at Cornell is now one of the most important alumni in Cornell's history. I think he is on the, I think he was on, he was on the Board of Trustees for a while. He has become a very successful person in life. And, and Harry Edwards, you know, the former professor at Berkeley, he was the advisor there at Cornell, he was a graduate student. And he come, [crosstalk] yeah, he was a graduate student there at the time. And he was involved in the protests, advising them. And of course, we all know what he did with Tommie, John Carlos and Tommie Smith in (19)68 Olympics. DK: 31:26 Wow. Yeah. SM: 31:49 [crosstalk] So a lot of connection there at Cornell. This is a question I would like your feelings on, and that is, how important were the student protests on college campuses on ending the war in Vietnam? Would you consider this time the closest, and also would you consider the (19)60s and early (19)70s as the closest we have come to a civil war since the Civil War? DK: 32:19 Protests on college campuses were like building a house, which culminated in say, the shootings at Kent State University, and then the marches on Washington that happened around that time as well. So, there was a whole building blocks, it was all, like, putting a putting a pot of stew on the stove, you know, you put your potatoes in first, but there they go the hardest thing, takes longer to cook. So those are important as steppingstones along the way. And the second part of that question was what? SM: 32:56 Oh, would you consider the period of the (19)60s and early (19)70s like the 19- like the Civil War, we came close to going at each other's throats. DK: 33:11 I do not think it was close to a civil war at all. Not at all. Mainly because people who were protesting the war were thinking about the union. They were thinking about this country, and the people that lived in this country. And so, I do not think there was any correlation to a civil war at all, because you had all through the (19)60s with Martin Luther King, talking about peaceful coexistence, and protesting peacefully. And many of the antiwar demonstrators felt the same way and use the same tactics along the way. So not anywhere close to a civil war. SM: 33:50 Did the-? DK: 33:51 Unlike the crazy extreme right. Now, just because they do not like some of the policies that are out there that are more humane and less discretionary. They are already starting to scream about a civil war, which is crazy. I mean, those people would nuts. And I hate to say that, but I know a few along the way, and they are already talking about Civil War, and I say, "what?!" How could you even say such a thing. SM: 34:21 Yeah. The think the media at times kind of built this kind of, is this, is there a possibility and what they would always use is that wall street scene where the hard hats would-would beat up the protesters, remember that scene? I forget what year. DK: 34:40 Oh yeah, oh yeah. [inaudible] SM: 34:42 And they always go there. They always go to that scene on, in New York, and it is the media trying to portray some of these things too. DK: 34:51 I must say I watch a lot of media because I am laid up right now. I do not feel [inaudible] doing that. What I do see on the Internet, going through various places like YouTube, the NRA chapters of an extreme [inaudible], people out there that have their own websites. They are the ones who are bringing up the issue of civil war. At this point in time. You know, they are worried about gun control, they are worried about Black people taking over. They are worried about people of different color, different nationalities who are American citizens who are born here that do not look like them. They are the ones who are stirring this up. The media has done a good job of keeping it off the front page, as far as I am concerned. [Inaudible] say, I am consuming a lot of media right now, because I am laid up. And I do not see it. What I am seeing is, it is crazy people out there, putting their videos online talking about, you know, how to prep for this type of thing. How much ammo do you need, you know, what kind of property you need to build. So that stuff is going on, those people are crazy. And there is like they are getting more and more hits, more and more likes, on their, on their, on their pages. SM: 35:37 Right. I know, it is more, I know, Morris Dees wrote a book, maybe 15, maybe six, maybe 15 years ago about the militia. And I think it is as applicable today as it was when he wrote it. Have you changed your opinion at all about boomers since you have aged? DK: 36:30 Just like I said, I see more of the areas where we could have done more follow through. And we have not. And so yeah, that is that part about me is a little disappointed in some areas. But I think in the, for it is time, we, we did a good job. And we made the country aware of what was going on. But I think at this point in time, what I am seeing is the boomer generation, the-the women who are involved, are the ones who are more active and more, more willing to be out there and in front and do leadership. You know, to me, that is important to see the women are picking it picking it up. SM: 37:10 I agree. I agree. And I hope I hope one day we really get equal pay. DK: 37:17 Yeah. SM: 37:17 Equal pay for equal work, I know that this has been a big issue, it is still is in some positions, because of the position everybody is paid the same, like in Congress. But the thing is, that they are still not being paid, what men are paid. And they still have to, you know, continue the battle. The-the, would you describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s as the most unique generation in American history? I say this, because back, you may have heard this from your peers back when we were both young, whether it be Kent State or SUNY Binghamton or another, any other college, students felt that they had this feeling that, a good feeling that they were going to change things and for the betterment of society, they were, that they were going to be the change agents for the betterment-betterment of society, they saw they would see it wrong, and they tried to right it. Your thoughts on that, that they, that this feeling that we are unique, we are different, we may be the greatest generation in history. They thought that in their youth, I am not sure if they think that now. DK: 38:27 Well, I never thought that my youth always thought that we were just part of these movements in this society that we live in, this country we live in. We were just picking up the mantle and carrying it forward. Now the generation that I attribute that is probably the most changed, did the most change in this world, would be my parents’ generation that fought in World War Two, that survived the Great Depression, and brought the prosperity to the world that we have out there. And that that, to me was probably the generation that had the biggest impact on society in this world, you know, in my lifetime, but I think we were just part of a, you know, part of the movement in this country to move forward. And you know, we did not have any big world war, but we had our own skirmishes in Cambodia, you know, and Laos. So yeah, I mean, I do not know I do not, I never got that feeling that we were, you know, major change agents in the world. I never felt that at all. SM: 39:35 I have about six other questions before we get to the Kent State, but I am going to go right into Kent State because I think it is important here. DK: 39:43 Yeah. SM: 39:43 These are the questions; I got a whole series here. Why did you why did you choose Kent State, and I think you have already explained that and your major in teaching. Were you a conservative or a liberal? How would you define yourself? DK: 40:00 Well, if I look back at what I was, in context of today's reality, I would say I was probably a liberal. But I just, I was still, in my mind at the time I was thinking about, you know, all these issues, how I, how I need to approach them, how I need to address them, and you know, how they affect me, and what can I do about that? You know so I did not really think of myself as a liberal or conservative. I was considering myself as someone who was trying to figure my way through this world at this point in time. Oh, yeah. So yeah, I would say, looking back, I would say I was probably a liberal but at the time I was just curious. SM: 40:41 On that, on that weekend, starting with the, when Nixon gave the speech, that we were going into Cambodia on April 30, it sent a wave around the country of protests. I mean, like, golly, I cannot even, you know, it happened on our campus. Did you attend and support all the events over those four-day periods, and on the 30th, and then the 1st, 2nd and 3rd? DK: 41:07 Well on the third, obviously I was in the, you know, the local tavern watching the speech and you know, [inaudible] to televisions, not television, televisions, remember back then we did not have huge TVs like we do now. SM: 41:20 Right-right. DK: 41:22 But I was, I was in there. And everybody was taking notes. I felt out of place. I felt like I went to a classroom out of Oakland. And it was quiet, except for whenever it was over with, there was a lot of booing. And then there was a long discussion on the way back to my dormitory, Tri Towers. And then the next day, I remember going to classes. And then I went home. I was home for the weekend. And the district youth were at our church while I was there, sort of facilitating the activities that were going on and discussions that was going in a small group, discussions about the war in Vietnam, what had happened, that sort of thing. So, I was gone Friday after classes on the 3rd, Sunday afternoon. So, I missed all that. But I was [inaudible] by Church of the Brethren, people I knew who were younger than me, year or two younger than me, helping facilitate the discussion that was going on during the district youth rally at the [inaudible] Church. SM: 42:31 When you left, Dean after the speech on the 30th and went back home, and then you came back to your campus a few days later, were you shocked to see National Guard troops there? DK: 42:43 I truly was. In fact, it was not just on the campus. I mean, it was clear up on the edge of town, South 43, the route 43 on my entrance into campus was I was driving north on 43. And we pulled up there and my dad said he saw what was happening. He said get your driver's license out your ID card out. And I will take, I will do all the talking. I said, "why?" He says, "Well, I used to be a truck driver in World War Two. I told you that. But I went through lots of checkpoints, I know exactly what to do." And he said, "just hope the guy that comes in the window is not a second lieutenant because I do not have a good respect for them. I hope it is a sergeant." And sure enough, it was some sergeant. [inaudible] had a little conversation with him about being a World War Two veteran and taking his son back to school, taking him back to, you know, Tri-Towers and the guy said, "Well, you are going to have two or three more check points before you get there. And you got to [inaudible] order here, sir." My dad said, "Do not call me sir." [laughter] SM: 43:51 Wow, I did not know about, all these checkpoints just to come back to your college? DK: 43:56 Yeah-yeah. There was a check point when we got to the edge of campus. SM: 44:01 What were they looking for? Troublemakers? DK: 44:08 Probably. [laughs] SM: 44:10 Yeah, that happened, that happened at Michigan State when I went to visit a friend of mine there and he said, "Well, you better have your ID" and I said, "why?" "Well, you will find out when you get here" and yes, they thought we were out of state agitators. DK: 44:25 Right. You got, there was not both your ID and your driver's license [inaudible] SM: 44:30 Yes. DK: 44:32 I was saying, our driver's license were paper if you were a member of Ohio. Yep. SM: 44:37 My golly. So, you got back to the campus and that, what were all the students thinking there in your residence hall? I mean, this is what the this is the third? DK: 44:50 Yes, yeah. SM: 44:54 What were they go- what was happening in the residence halls? DK: 44:56 Well, I do not know what was happening in the residence hall. I got there in time for, you know, evening meal and unpacking and that sort of stuff. But nobody was talking about it. You know, they were discussing what was going on there. People were discussing about what was happening in Cambodia. People were telling stories about how they had been stopped by two or three soldiers who had bayonets on their rifles, pointing them at them, telling them to drop their books, searching them and that sort of stuff. But yeah, there was all this uneasy feeling about what was happening. And, you know, there was a lot of discussion about that whole uneasy feeling, feeling to sum it up in a few words. SM: 45:40 Yeah, I have been doing enough of those remembrance events to hear you and Alan and all the others talk about the experience. And the fact is, I keep asking one question, where was the president? I mean, I am not talking about President Nixon, where was President White? DK: 45:57 Right. [crosstalk] SM: 45:57 Where, he was on he was in a conference waiting to get on a plane and get the heck back to the campus. I mean, I cannot understand that. DK: 46:06 Right. He was in Iowa, I think. And he came back Sunday. And that is about same time Governor Rhodes made that impassioned speech to the fire department. And I think President White just washed his hands of the issue, said the governor's been here, the governor's taken over and the National Guard have taken over and I think President White just washed his hands of the whole issue [crosstalk]. SM: 46:35 Wow, see that that is, I mentioned, I think I have mentioned that the Alan years ago, just in a conversation that is weak presidential leadership if I have ever heard one. And number one, he should have been fighting for the students. And he should have, he should have not allowed them- I well, I, you know, the governor can override him, but he should have challenged him more. DK: 46:56 Absolutely. SM: 46:57 And, and it is because he could have prevented a crisis. DK: 47:02 Yeah. SM: 47:03 And that is where you need the leadership. The next day, the day the day that really, I think, shook the world. I think you need to know this Dean that you know that the reason I am in higher education, the reason I changed my career goals. The reason it was it was because of what happened on that day. I wanted to I wanted to go into higher education as a career with a hope that I could be an administrator that could work for students, try to bring faculty, students and administrators together in harmony not in, you know, into battle. And, and I think my story is the story of thousands. DK: 47:46 Oh, yeah, [crosstalk] SM: 47:47 The loss of the loss of four precious lives and the wounding of four, or nine precious people is inexcusable. DK: 47:57 Yeah, absolutely. SM: 47:59 And as Alan and, and you, I think you all agree from a couple of conferences that it was murder. DK: 48:05 Yep. That it was. SM: 48:06 But can you explain, and this is important, because people down the road will hear this interview, and we will all be long gone. But Kent State will never be gone. And the [inaudible] the remembrance event, is going to be major. But I know right now, three people at Harpur College, who I do not even know, in their interview, said that the thing that changed their life was Kent State. DK: 48:36 Wow. Yeah-yeah. SM: 48:38 Could you desrc- could you describe that day on May 4th, in your own words? DK: 48:46 To follow up on what you were saying there, state sanctioned murder is basically what it was. You know, it was, Governor Rhodes made such derogatory remarks, he said that "We will do it. We will do anything to eradicate the problem." [phone rings] SM: 49:05 Do not worry about that noise. I am in a room here with the phone. Hold on one second. [banging] I cannot do anything about it. It is the phone. Go ahead. DK: 49:30 Basically, [inaudible] saying we have to do everything we can to-to eradicate the problem. They called us, said that we were the worst elements that we harbor in our society, that we were worse than the Brown Shirts, the Night Riders, the vigilantes. So, he was demonizing us and I think justifying his future actions that he thought might happen or maybe did not think that happened, sort of was setting the stage, being an agitator. And so that sort of gave, you know, gave people, you know, the green light to do whatever they needed to do. So yeah, something like this should never happened in this late the 20th century. SM: 50:16 Now what time, what time did you will walk over to the field? DK: 50:20 Well, I got up that morning. And although my professors’ offices [inaudible] I was not coming to classes this morning, that I would be in my afternoon classes. And that was back when you had to, you could not miss unless you were deadly ill, and you always called in to let them know you were not coming to class. That was Kent State. Because only the year before they finally allowed women and men to visit each other in our dormitory. SM: 50:47 Wow. DK: 50:49 There were not- yeah. And so, I remember getting up that morning, and walking over with a couple of my floormates to the area. And we all got [inaudible] we got lost along the way. I was planning on going to my 1:10 class. So, I had paper and a couple of pens in my pocket. So, I could put them in my notebook notes that I was taking that particular, the rest of the afternoon in my last two classes. And we were standing on the side of the hill, watching what was going on. There were a couple of people with a bullhorn, talking about the isms of the day. I was getting a little bored. And then I noticed that the National Guard, were moving around over by, in ruins of the ROTC building that were burnt down, and thought, "Well, something is going to happen here." And next thing I know there is an officer bullhorn who told us to disperse, we were illegally gathered that sort of thing. Even though there was no damage being done, there was no rioting being done. No anything other than students standing around and listening to these people with these bullhorns talking about the isms of the day. But them coming out and I have to say student, students threw lots of rocks and stones at the National Guard. But they did not get very close. They had a, they had a, I do not know if it was a security guard from the campus or, but we did have our own police department, you know [inaudible] department, or somebody from the city police, I cannot remember now, who was riding in the seat with a bullhorn. And then we went back, and students started chanting all the [inaudible] chants of the day. 1,2,3,4, we do not want your f-ing war. Pigs off campus, and the like. And then they came out with the National Guard and, you know, told us we were gathered illegally, read the Ohio Riot Act to us. And of course, students continued to throw stones, but they stayed, you know, good 100 yards away. Not too many people had the, you know, the arm of a centerfielder to play for any professional baseball team. So, there was basically no harm done there. And then I saw them go back and I saw them putting bayonets on their rifles and checking their rifles, I saw them getting out the grenade launcher that they were going to launch the tear gas canisters with, and then they all formed up in formation and poot-poot-poot. You know, half a dozen tear gas canisters went flying through the air. And of course, the area of the commons surrounded on, you know, three sides by hill- hills, I should say. SM: 53:41 Right. DK: 53:41 And it was a fairly, fairly windy day. So, there was a lot of a lot of swirling winds. So, the tear gas did not have the desired effect that they probably wanted to have because students were able to run away from the area and go up around Taylor Hall on the sides. The other side of Taylor Hall and they got out of the way, went down the hill on the other side of Taylor Hall into a parking lot where some kids eventually were shot. But I went past that and to another parking lot across the street, across midway drive. And I remember at that point in time, pulling out a baggie that I had for a wet washcloth and actually had two wet wash cloths, so I could wash off my face then rinse it off as well and, did not have anything to dry it off with but, you know, it was a windy day so it was going to dry quickly. But got the tear gas out of my eye. And I remember standing there watching them come down the hill from where I had just come and go into the practice football field, which was surrounded on three sides by a fence. And another four or 500 students were on the same hill where they had just come from, and basically formed a [inaudible] around them. So, they were totally surrounded by, you know, a chain-link fence and a group of students. And at this point in time, there were a lot of students who were throwing stones from the National Guard, but, you know, again there are 100 yards away. And so, nobody was hitting anything, the National Guard, we thought were just there to shoot tear gas at everybody. I remember one National Guard from picking up a tear gas canister and throwing it back at the students. And then I saw them huddled together. And after they huddled together, they got in formation and marched from where they had come. And then I sort of followed along, staying about 100 yards away, I was curious. I looked at my clock, and it was about 20, 25 after noon. And when they reached the top of the hill, they turned and fired. I mean, I grew up using firearms, and they are turning, and they are lifting their rifle, a very deliberate act. There was no hesitation. There was no, you know, thinking about it. As soon as they pulled those [inaudible] and pulled those rifles up, I said, "Oh, my God, they are going to shoot." I could not believe it. I was mortified. We were jumping on the ground because there was no trees to hide behind. And I was laying there hearing the shots. And all of a sudden, I heard shots landing on the ground around me, not landing but going into the ground around me. And then I got hit, and I said, "Oh, my God, what had happened." Shot me. And then I regained my consciousness quickly again, or my, my awareness, realized there was still bullets hitting the ground around me. And I thought, "Oh, my God, I hope I do not get hit again." And then all of a sudden everything stopped. But while the shooting was going on, I mean, it was chaos. People screaming and hollering. The shrill of their voice, it is just amazing. I just could not believe the noise that three or four thousand people were making, at that point in time, it was shocking to hear. Then there was a lull, a quietness. And then all of a sudden, there was more screaming, more shouting, more hollering. And then all sudden, there were people gathering around me with the look of shock and horror on their face. They were traumatized. These people were looking down at me lying on the ground. And I was not bleeding externally, my bleeding was all done internal and so there was a pool of blood that went through my-my back, it just went inside my shoulder blade, I can reach around and put my finger on the bullet hole. But it has damaged my lungs, and my diaphragm. And my vertebrae and my spinal cord, shattered three vert- three vertebrae, thoracique, 9, 10 and 11 hit me and ricocheted off of there. And the bullet is still in me, I have shrapnel all through my body. And my [inaudible] I should say and seemed like it took forever before an ambulance got there. And I remember [inaudible] the journey, putting me in the ambulance and driving off campus. And there was an odd sight I saw on my trip when I got out on Main Street headed towards Ravenna was the fact that every other telephone pole, there were telephone workers up on the poles and it is probably six of them that I saw. I thought, "Now that is an odd sight as I am going off campus here, why are all those guys up on those telephone poles?" Hospital found out later that they shut off the [inaudible] campus so there will obviously be some pre- planning going on if there was a catastrophe and, you know, they turned off all the phones then they ordered everybody to leave campus. But back to my story I remember getting to the Ravenna hospital, I remember being put on a gurney, you know, a regular hospital gurney and I remember hearing a nurse holler, "Get blood types on all these people!" and I said to myself, "I just gave blood at the blood bank last week so I got my blood donor's card and while I was digging around for it, I pulled out my other blood donor's card from Mercy Medical Center, where I have been giving blood [inaudible] high school and [inaudible] high school, and then, I thought [inaudible] need my insurance card. They are going to need my ID, my driver's license. And I had a card that I had typed up with my parents' phone numbers on it as well. Let us just go back because once I got shot and shooting stopped, I forgot to tell you this-that an African American student came over to me and asked me who I was, and did I know the phone numbers for my parents. And I gave them my parents, two work numbers because I knew they were both at work today, that day. And we went into Prentice Hall and called my parents within five minutes of me getting shot. So, they heard about it firsthand, from an eyewitness, instead of hearing about the news, and then waiting here to see if their son was all right. SM: 1:01:02 Right. DK: 1:01:03 So, my mother was the foresight that she had, she called our bishop, we do not we did not call him bishops, they were district secretaries. But they were the equivalent of a bishop, say like in the Catholic Church. And she called him, and he said, "You are lucky you caught me, if you had waited two or three more minutes, I would have been out the door on my way to Robinson Memorial Hospital [inaudible]. So, I will look him up as soon as I get there. So, he drove to Ravenna. And I was able to see him before they put me out to operate on me. And we had a little prayer and a little time together, talked a little bit. And then they gurney- wheeled me out to operate on me. So those were the things that happened to me immediately after the shooting. And then I wake up Friday morning with all kinds of [inaudible] stuck in me, and all kinds of [inaudible] and clapping and supplement breathing. Because this crazy computer aided machines, these were all mechanical machines running to keep me alive at that point in time, and when I was fully conscious, I remember like Saturday morning, the nurse came over and said, "There is an FBI agent over there who would like to talk to you." I said, “Okay, send him over." So came over, he identified himself, I do not remember his name. He says, "I got some questions for you." I said, "Oh, wait-wait, wait. Our family attorney is a guy named Harry Schmuck." And the guy sort of got a little white in the face. I said, "He is an old farm boy and I helped, helped him bale hay, and help him deal with animals. He is my attorney." And then I saw him sort of turn white, and I said, "why do you look so weird today?" "You mean, the Harry Schmuck?" "Yeah." [inaudible] He goes, "yeah, I have my [inaudible] in Cleveland," because these FBI agents were from Cleveland. SM: 1:03:19 Oh, wow. DK: 1:03:19 He worked, what was that famous murder case, the Sheppard case as it was? SM: 1:03:24 Yes-yes. DK: 1:03:26 He was. He was a young attorney on one of the, I do not know if it was the defense or in the prosecutor's office at that point in time, I think he was on the defense team. And so, you know, he was a rather flamboyant little farm boy. Harry was so [crosstalk]. SM: 1:03:46 Well, you had a good one. DK: 1:03:48 I apparently had a good one. I did not know. SM: 1:03:50 Yes, yeah. DK: 1:03:51 He was good. He It was just another farmer who was a lawyer. And every time I visited his office, the had his barn shoes sitting on a tray just inside the door of his office. So his office always smelled like horse shit and cow shit. SM: 1:04:07 [laughs] Well, he knows who his roots were. Now Dean, how long were you in the hospital? DK: 1:04:18 Well, I was in the hospital from May 4th to May 21st. In Robinson Memorial Hospital, then I was a part of this new program trying to get people from their initial spinal cord injury into a rehabilitation center as early as possible. It went from May 4th to May 21st. That is what, 17 days that I was in the [inaudible]. And then I was in the rehab center. They told me when I on my intake that I'd probably be there until February or March of (19)71 because of the seriousness of my injury, because they had to the break three ribs to get into me to manhandle all my organs to look for sharp metal, to repair the organs if they could, and they sewed up my diaphragm. And then they put me all back together. And so, I was really sore. And because I had a spinal cord injury, they could not put me on a frame with tension. So, I had to lay perfectly still on my back for four hours, then they would take six people to rotate me onto my stomach for four hours. And then they would rotate me on my side for four hours, and then my other side foot four hours. SM: 1:05:50 Wow. DK: 1:05:51 For three, three months until the hematoma the big pool of blood that was surrounding my three vertebrates finally went down. And they, you know, they then at that point in time that I was allowed to start sitting up a little bit at a time. SM: 1:06:11 Wow. DK: 1:06:13 Spent that time but I finally got out of the hospital, I defied all odds, I was being an athlete, I was motivated and know how to take care of myself. In fact, I do, I still do whatever I can, even in my horizontal space at this point in time. I do 50 Pushups every time I get into my cart, then I have a set of five-pound dumbbells that I use to exercise my arm to keep my muscle [inaudible]. So, I was able to get released from the hospital on October 25 (19)70. And I got out in time for Halloween and was able to go back to school in January, of (19)71, much earlier than expected. Yeah. SM: 1:07:04 And did you go full time for the rest of the time until you graduated? DK: 1:07:10 Yes, I did. Yes, I did, I did. SM: 1:07:13 And when did you get that degree? DK: 1:07:15 Well, because of my interruptions to my education from various things I had to do and learning how to live life as a paraplegic or a spinal cord injured person. It took me a little while, but I finally graduated (19)77. So, yeah, there was a lot of interruptions where I was part of the quarter but would not, would not be able to finish it so. SM: 1:07:42 And was that still in teaching? DK: 1:07:45 Yes, yes. It always was. SM: 1:07:48 And did you go out and become a teacher, when you left? DK: 1:07:51 I taught for 15 years as a teacher at the end of my career. Prior to that I was in politics and government. I worked for the, first my job was, my first job out of college was with the Industrial Commission, Division of Safety and Hygiene. There was a new program that was being started to help employers make their businesses accessible for their workers who came back disabled from work injuries or non-work injuries, but also to do an accessibility survey for the employers to make their businesses accessible for the disabled so that the disabled could get jobs. So, I did that for two years. And then I was approached by the Democratic Executive Chairman of Athens County and asked me if I would be interested in working for Tony Celebrezze, the newly elected Secretary of State of Ohio. And the interview had two interviews with them, and he asked me if I wanted to work for him and I told him I would. I would still be doing the same type of work, but I would be working with boards of elections and making them accessible in 18 counties in Southeast Ohio. But I knew these counties from my work with the Industrial Commission, Division of Safety and Hygiene because I was already working those 18 counties. And so, I worked for Tony Celebrezze for a couple of months, for four years. And then when he was elected the Attorney General State of Ohio, I continued to work for him. But I switched over primarily with lawyers, judges, that sort of thing. But I must say that one of the major accomplishments was when we left the Secretary of State's office, the facility we left the Secretary of State's office, 99 percent of the board of elections in the state of Ohio were wheelchair accessible. And I think that 80 percent of the polling places were now wheelchair accessible. And the last thing, last [inaudible] that he had, as a Secretary of State was, he started the process of computerized voter registration [inaudible] which I was able to facilitate by region. A lot of resistance that so I would bring the copies of the forum, leave the, there. And once I made all the stops at all eighteen counties. I started back again; I would spend the day sitting in their office. He tried to put me in some office, nope, I want to be right in the middle of everything. They set me up an office and I would sit right beside the big card catalog they had. And I would pull out the letter "A," start typing. So, I got these forms. And I think, I shamed them because by the second time around, they were already doing it. So, we started the process to get a statewide voter registration letter. And then to put it on the state computers, getting started to computerize legislation, which we now have, I think in all fifty states. SM: 1:09:21 Right. Wow, you were involved in some important work. DK: 1:11:24 I was doing some good work, I enjoyed it. SM: 1:11:27 My golly, and you know, what I really admire is that, you know, you had this setback in your, well, a major setback in your life, you never planned to be in a wheelchair, and you still went on with your life and you are doing good things. And you are giving back to is, it is, it is all about giving back to others. DK: 1:11:46 Yeah. SM: 1:11:47 And you are obviously, you know, the-the injury in terms of wheelchair accessibility, I look at campuses now. And I am sure, I even do it at Kent State when I visit, because that has been a big issue at where I used to work at Westchester, that all buildings needed to be accessible by wheelchair. And we still have one building at Westchester University that will not do it, because it is on the Historic Register. And if they had to do what they had to, they have to take some stones off of the-the outside of the building. I do not know where they are with that, but it is still wrong. The rest of the campus is all accessible, but one building is not. DK: 1:12:26 [inaudible] After I got hurt, and I was hauled away, even before I got home, when I was in the hospital. I mean, I was visited by people from I do not know how many states, but it was a lot of different states. It was all, it was in the summer, I was in the Rehab Center in Cleveland. And people would drop in out of the sky blue- professors, students and, you know, student leaders from various private and small colleges and big colleges. All came and brought me books, to spend time with them. And church leaders, many denominations came to visit me while I was in the rehab center. And so, you know, there is all this discussion about, you know, "What are you going to do next?" Well, "I want to go back and finish my education and be a productive member of society." And I got a lot of support for all of that. And I really never, never, I never had any other feeling. And the same with my family, you know, my mother heard that I would go on vacation and do something in society, whether it be, you know, working in a local community or whatever. So yeah, I mean, there was no hesitation by any of my friends, my colleagues, or acquaintances that I was not going to get up and go be a part of society. That was never even in my head to begin with that I would not withdraw from society-that I would withdraw from society, that would be a productive member of society. So yeah, there was just not there was no-no hesitation by anybody, or me. I knew I was alive. The thing here is I was thankful that I was alive. I could have been dead because you get hit with a 30-06 m1 caliber rifle. That is the same weapon my father carried in World War Two. And my father, now to the day he died, was so angry that I was shot by the same rifle that he carried World War Two. SM: 1:14:45 Wow. DK: 1:14:47 [inaudible] that the M1 Garand was used to shoot me, but he used it to help save the world from tyranny. SM: 1:14:53 Wow. DK: 1:14:54 Yeah, that is, that is- SM: 1:14:57 That is, that is something. I did not know that. DK: 1:15:01 Yeah, one sad part of his life he never overcame. SM: 1:15:06 Wow. DK: 1:15:07 Yeah. SM: 1:15:10 Over the years, when did you get to know the people that were also wounded at Kent State, and also the families of those who had died? DK: 1:15:19 Within a year, within a year, I got to meet them. Because, you know, there was lawyers who were representing all of us. All those lawyers got together, and all those lawyers got all the families together. And we started dealing with the strategy of how we were going to deal with this issue. We were going to hold the state of Ohio accountable for what they did. And so that is where I met them, I met them at a hotel in downtown Cleveland. But I had also met many of the students who were wounded at Kent State because many of them were still going to school- SM: 1:16:04 Right. DK: 1:16:06 -at Kent State. So yeah. That is how I met everybody. SM: 1:16:15 The remembrance events now, in linkage to this tragedy. This murder, as some of the programs have described what, there has been 49 years of, I believe in the very beginning, though, you were not allowed to have remembrance events? Or I do not know what was going on here that in the early stages, but this is-? DK: 1:16:41 Oh, [inaudible] SM: 1:16:41 Pardon? DK: 1:16:43 Yeah, it was a year later, they had a big commemoration. [inaudible] commemoration September of (19)70. Phil Ochs, Bang, I met the Reverend Ralph Abernathy there, I forget the other celebrities that were there as well. When you were talking about people who were, you know, baby boomers and Richie Havens. Richie Havens, I think of Phil Ochs at the same time. SM: 1:17:09 Oh, yes, definitely. DK: 1:17:11 Yeah. And so, you know, I met all those people as well. And there was a large contingency of Vietnam Veterans Against the War. And those guys were the ones that actually took care of me. When I went back in September of (19)70, they were there, and they were around me so that nothing would happen to me. SM: 1:17:41 How did your- how did your parents get through all this? Now, obviously, they were there for you as their son, but how- your mom and dad, how did they react to this the same or differently? DK: 1:17:55 Well, they both react differently. Yeah, my mother, being a being a woman, obviously, is very verbal. But the comparison I like to make is that my mother gained 50 pounds, my father lost 50 pounds. And when I talked to my neighbors later on, as I got older, I talked to my neighbors about the whole thing and found out that we had one neighbor that they went and talked to, and one neighbor describes my dad coming up there and just crying with his head on the table. And my and she would also then describe how my mother was just so anguished about what happened. And then then my siblings, you know, my sister when she got home from school, found out about it, and my parents were already in Robinson Memorial Hospital at that point in time. So, my sister basically ran the family. She was two years younger than I am. So, she was a Senior High School, and she was basically taking care of my other two siblings. I had three other siblings, I had two sisters and a brother. And she is just now in the last few years, started to talk to me about it about how [inaudible] it was and how frightening it was and how scary it was between mom and dad, the way they were reacting to what happened. And, you know, it really made a big impression on her. SM: 1:19:36 What did you personally learn from going through this tragic event? DK: 1:19:39 Well, I learned that, you know, we live in a participatory democracy and if you do not participate, you get run over. And I have, every speech I have given in my lifetime, I have always told people to register to vote. Fighting the issues, fighting the candidates and then vote. I also, I also tell people that they have to be involved. You do not have to run for office like the US Senate or whatever. You know, there is lots of kinds of things that you can do. You can either run [inaudible] Trustees, village council, you can also, you do not want to run for office, you can work on various boards and commissions, that public officials make appointments to. You know, children's services, MRDD, Alcohol and Drug Addiction committees, all kinds of activities out there that you can be involved in and be part of your government. You know, you have to, you have to be involved in making your local government thrive. [inaudible] Democracy [inaudible] like I said, it is a participatory sport. You have to be involved. You are not involved; you are not making a decision and it is important to be an active productive member of society. But I have included that in every one of my speeches. SM: 1:21:07 It is very important. Excellent. You know Kim Phuc, the girl in the picture from the Vietnam War? DK: 1:21:16 Yeah. SM: 1:21:17 Yeah, we brought her to our campus, and she talks about the whole issue of healing and so forth. I want to just; I wrote this comment down and from about her and linking with you and I want your thoughts. Kim Phuc, the girl in the picture, has devoted her life to healing and sending messages that healing is the best way to overcome tragedy. She forgives the, the, the pilots, who dropped bombs on her village where she was burned over 80 percent of her body, and she lost her brother. DK: 1:21:51 Right. SM: 1:21:51 A pain she has every day she lives with every day in her life. Have you been able to heal from a different tragedy in some way, knowing that the National Guard that did this committed a terrible crime, murder of four and wounding of nine, and will pay in the end, but you have moved on in your life and have, have you healed a little bit yourself? DK: 1:22:17 I had to work at forgiveness. And I think forgiveness is more than just saying, "I forgive," It is something you have to do regularly, almost daily, sometimes. Because I have a constant reminder about what happened to me. That reminds me of the four key students who were killed. But, you know, I am not going to forget, I wish at some point in time, one of them would give us a deathbed confession about what really happened. And, you know, it is important. And I think one of the reasons none of them have spoken up is because murder has no statute of limitations. And they are all afraid. The governor and their general were able to scare the daylights out of those people, so they are never going to talk. I just hope at some point in time, one of them will do a deathbed confession about what really went on that particular day. So yeah, I have moved on. But I have not forgotten. SM: 1:23:21 Yeah. And Dean, is it? Is it true that most of the, most of the guys that were in the National Guard have died? DK: 1:23:29 I do not know. They were not. There were not 18- 20-year-olds, like everybody talks about. [inaudible] were all close to 30 years old, so I would not doubt that they are getting [inaudible], several of them have died already. SM: 1:23:47 Right. Well, maybe, would not that be interesting if we could get one of those people to come to the event next year and tell the truth? DK: 1:23:57 Yeah. SM: 1:23:57 Would not that be and-and I think that person even though he committed to, he committed a crime, would probably get support from those in attendance. DK: 1:24:09 [agreement] SM: 1:24:10 Finally, being honest and truthful. Do you see anything in America today? How would you define the divide you see in America today in (20)19, in (20)19, are there any links to the divide in (19)70? DK: 1:24:26 Well, the only link that I see between the divide now and divide then is the fact that, to use modern terminology, they use of hate speech as continues to prevail in our society. Back that we used to call it radical rhetoric by the right or the conservatives or Republicans [inaudible] point, but I think that is the only real link that we have today. I think what we have here today is a want to be authoritarian or want to be dictator, who is frightened because he is such a corrupt person, that he does not know the consequences of his actions. Whereas Richard Nixon was very aware of the consequences of his actions and was a little more maniacal in the sense of knowing the limits of his authority, and the responsibilities he had with the office. This particular tyrant does not know the limits of the building [inaudible] knows the responsibilities that goes with the office. And then there is a small group of people out there who have no limits to begin with. And I think those are his ardent followers. So obviously, Nixon had his ardent followers, but, you know, they were they were quelled by the fact that Nixon knew the responsibilities and the job that he is after, where this guy does not know the responsibility of either. So. SM: 1:26:20 Got a couple more questions here that just give me the hi-sign here. I did not know this. I had to leave at 4:50. I thought was going to be here till 5. DK: 1:26:29 Oh. SM: 1:26:29 Let me go try to get, here is one. What do you think the lasting legacy of the (19)60s and (19)70s is? DK: 1:26:39 Well, I am not afraid to give credit where credit is due the Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, you know, who sponsored those [inaudible]. The improvement of women's lives going forward a little bit as well. I think the improvement, the little improvement there is for the civil rights of African Americans and people who were different. The fact that, you know, people in society were not afraid to speak up about the war. There was a war, that we, that hasn't stopped our society from allowing it to happen. So, it is a mixed review. Obviously, some good things have happened. And the lessons have not been learned. Because we-we repeat some of those historical lessons that children learn. So yeah, it is an era and a time of turbulence, and education, and change. But like all eras, or generations, you never get 100 percent of what you want. SM: 1:27:50 Right. DK: 1:27:52 There will be forces out there that control the levers of power. SM: 1:27:57 Do you think we as a nation have healed since the Vietnam War as a nation, Jan Scruggs wrote a book, "To Heal a Nation." And when he wrote that book, it was about healing the Vietnam veterans who had served in that war, the ones who, obviously the families of those who died. And, and then, of course, and he and he knew he was his effort, when the-the wall opened in (19)82, that veterans are finally saying, we were welcomed home for the first time. Have we healed as a nation since the war? DK: 1:28:31 I think we have partially healed as a nation since the war. I still see the fact that veterans are dying because of their exposure to Agent Orange, getting those diseases that go along with it. And the VA's still struggling to take care of those veterans. And you have got the big chasm, the big polarization that is going on between people who were considerate and trying to make the world a better place and those who want to abuse and take advantage of the resources and the society that we have. You know, so. And is the fact that the rich keep finding excuses to deny equal pay to people of all economic status, status, statuses. But yeah, I do not think we [inaudible] heal but part of society has, some parts [inaudible] along the way. SM: 1:29:41 And then I will probably end with this, Dean because they just told me I thought I had till, I thought I had two hours here. 10 more minutes, but I am going [inaudible]. In a few sentences, or less, or even maybe a paragraph, describe the (19)60s and (19)70s in the way that only Dean can describe it. DK: 1:30:09 Well, for me personally, it was a period of growth and development. It is also a period of understanding responsibility of being a member of this great Republic that we live in. And learning the lessons that democracy only works if you participate and being part of the process of making government work. In the (19)60s, and (19)70s, (19)70s were a period of growth and development and learning to become a productive member of society. And also learning to live by life in such a way that I am proud of what I have done, and that other people can learn from examples that I, the way I have lived my life. I think that would be the probably the best way to describe. SM: 1:31:07 Do you ever, do you ever feel feelings like some people have, but others do not have. Why me? [crosstalk] Was I am in the wrong place at the wrong time? I mean, why do you ever have that feeling? DK: 1:31:24 I do not have those feelings now. But in the early days, [inaudible] after I got hurt was in and out in the rehab center and stuff, I felt that. But then I went through some good psychological counseling to deal with the issue of [inaudible] my disability, being a strong, strapping farm boy and an athlete, to understand that I can still be a strong, strapping athlete and a productive member of society through that counseling that I got, and no, I have not felt those feelings in, you know, nearly 50 years at this point in time. SM: 1:31:58 You know, it is amazing. Kim Phuc's story is a little bit like yours, but in with different circumstances. She is a very religious person, very religious. And if you have seen her, we brought her to the, well, I wish she could come to the, to the 50th anniversary, I just, it is about healing. It is about, it is about forgiving, and a lot of things but religion plays a very important part. She has got 80 percent of her body is burned. DK: 1:32:01 Right. SM: 1:32:28 But it has not deterred her spirit of healing and forgiveness. And you do not have to forgive people who have done things. But in the mere fact that you were paralyzed from the waist down by a tragedy, but you have used your experience to help the lives of others. DK: 1:32:49 Yeah. SM: 1:32:49 With your work and government with all these other things, you and Kim are two peas in a pod. You need to be in a room, you need to be in a room together and shut the door and just talk for four hours. I mean, I am serious because you have had different stories. Very serious tragedies. But you have moved on with your life and helping others. DK: 1:33:15 I have always admired her story. There is no doubt about that. SM: 1:33:19 Well, I am, I am in the process of getting a hold of her to okay her interview with me because I got pretty close to her when she came to Westchester. But in my email to her, I am going to say I would love to someday, if you can get a link up with Dean. I think I think if you could have just a conversation, just the two of you talking together. Maybe one day that can happen. DK: 1:33:43 That would be nice. That would be nice. I would enjoy that. SM: 1:33:46 Now, the last thing I am going to say is, is there any question I did not ask that you expect, you thought I might ask? DK: 1:33:53 Well, actually, you are pretty thorough. And if you have any future questions, do not be afraid to get a hold. SM: 1:33:58 Yeah, well, I have been cut about 20 minutes off my interview here, but I will let you know that Dean. And- DK: 1:34:04 Well, I will keep this phone number in my directory with your name, so. SM: 1:34:08 Okay, yep. Okay, will do and what will happen here as we will be after this interview, the Center here will get the tape, they will mail it to your email address. So, I need your email address. DK: 1:34:24 It is just my first name and my last name deantaylor@gmail.com. SM: 1:34:31 Okay. At gmail.com? DK: 1:34:35 Yep. SM: 1:34:36 Alright, I do not know when they are going to do it, but I just, you are the second interview I had today, and they will send it to you for you to listen to and okay it. And then I think I have a picture of you already that I took of you, so I do not have to worry about a picture. So. DK: 1:34:50 Okay. SM: 1:34:51 All right, Dean, thank you very much. May God bless and may you continue to be, you know, be healthy. I will be thinking of you as you are battling. I guess you are not feeling very good right now. DK: 1:35:05 I am feeling good. I just felt hurt myself two years ago, and I have had all kinds of complications related since then. But I am getting there. I am getting to the point where my body is healing, so I am in good shape. SM: 1:35:18 Well, you are very important person to be around. So, you know, I look forward to seeing you at Kent State. Definitely next year. DK: 1:35:27 Absolutely. SM: 1:35:28 And, and I will be in touch with you, you thank you very much. DK: 1:35:32 You are welcome, Steve. Take care. SM: 1:35:33 Yeah, you bet. Bye now. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dean Kahler https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/390e22186feda6338593ba30d7ddeb6d.jpg 7f1ed828f33159b9f4ba67df87cc06f6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/43219a78fde44011d65d82098672dfae.mp3 f2ea0c59b5507f4b50118fe109dde3dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Deanne Stillman Date of Interview 2010-03-21 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 83:45 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Deanne Stillman is a critically acclaimed author. She writes the “Letter from the West” column for the Los Angeles Review of Books and is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program. She authored several books and her work appears in many publications, including Los Angeles Review of Books, New York Times, and and Tin House. Stillman is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Deanne Stillman is a critically acclaimed author. She writes the “Letter from the West” column for the <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em> and is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program. She authored several books and her work appears in many publications, including <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, and <em>Tin House</em>. Stillman is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Timothy Leary; Rex Weiner; Woodstock; Anti-War Movement; Muslim; Socialist; Generation X; Native American; Battle of the Little Bighorn; Baby boom generation; Photographs; Kent State.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Timothy Leary; Rex Weiner; Woodstock; Anti-War Movement; Muslim; Socialist; Generation X; Native American; Battle of the Little Bighorn; Baby boom generation; Photographs; Kent State.</span> Subject LCSH Authors, American--20th century; Stillman, Deanne--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Deanne Stillman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Stillman, Deanne ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors, American--20th century; Stillman, Deanne--Interviews Description An account of the resource Deanne Stillman is a critically acclaimed author. She writes the “Letter from the West” column for the <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em> and is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program. She authored several books and her work appears in many publications, including <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, and <em>Tin House</em>. Stillman is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.162 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 83:45 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/23524584dee5b79af310ed2565873d59.jpg d9ad341d22dc0207b629c7e158ba21dc https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/accae0f06a17ce0d13ab38bd3e21134c.mp3 42eaa93bcef6a24ac7a299d5046bd9f8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Denis Hayes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Denis Hayes is an environmental advocate, proponent of solar power, attorney, educator, and founder of the Earth Day Network, which works with over 180 nations in order to build environmental democracy. He was head of the Solar Energy Research Institute and president of the Bullitt Foundation in Washington. Hayes also received many awards including the national Jefferson Awards Medal for Outstanding Public Service. Hayes received his Bachelor's degree in History from Stanford University and a Juris Doctor degree at Stanford Law School.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Denis Hayes is an environmental advocate, a proponent of solar power, attorney, educator, and founder of the Earth Day Network, which works with over 180 nations in order to build environmental democracy. He was head of the Solar Energy Research Institute and president of the Bullitt Foundation in Washington. Hayes also received many awards including the national Jefferson Awards Medal for Outstanding Public Service. Hayes received his Bachelor's degree in History from Stanford University and a Juris Doctor degree at Stanford Law School.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Civil Rights Movement; Eisenhower; Vietnam War; Drug experimentation; Baby boom generation; Civil disobedience; Nonviolent protests; Support for the Environmental Movement; Chemical/biological warfare; Vietnam War; Earth Day.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Civil Rights Movement; Eisenhower; Vietnam War; Drug experimentation; Baby boom generation; Civil disobedience; Nonviolent protests; Support for the Environmental Movement; Chemical/biological warfare; Vietnam War; Earth Day.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 88:57 Subject LCSH Environmentalism; Lawyers; Earth Day Network; Solar Energy Research Institute; Bullitt Foundation; Hayes, Denis--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Denis Hayes Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: Not Dated --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:00): As I mentioned in my note that I have been working on this for a long time. I started it way back. In fact, Senator Nelson was one of my first interviews and I interviewed him when I was working at the university and we did this on the road leadership program and he had come to our campus twice to talk about Earth Day and one night we went over to the Holiday Inn and we were having a couple drinks and everything and I told him that I had been having difficulty getting a hold of William Fulbright, that I wanted to take our students down to DC to meet him. And he had just had a stroke, but he was getting recuperated and he was a close friend of the Senators. And he said, "Geez, I will get them for you." I said, "Really? Because I have been trying to secure him." And what happened is as a result of that, we ended up seeing nine senators. And I got pretty close to the Senator. He would always come into the Wilderness Society office. They would always meet in the back room there. I took maybe close to 200 different students there. In fact, that memory has stayed with so many of the students. I have a student now just became director of admissions at Southern Illinois University and Dr. Brandon Logan. And he was there with three of them, and when Senator McCarthy passed away and when Senator Musky passed away wherever he was, he sent me a note saying it was one of the greatest memories of my life. So I thank the Senator for that. Are you ready for the first question? And again, thank you again. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? DH (00:01:51): Time of upheaval in basic American institutions. SM (00:01:57): Could you go a little more detail? DH (00:01:59): Sure. Stuff was going on in every dimension of American life in terms of political realignment. That is when Nixon launched the southern strategy initially attempted from (19)64 by Barry Goldwater, brought to fruition in (19)68, especially (19)72 by Nixon, to basically take what had been the solid Democratic South, put it into the Republican Party. Then in the course of doing that, putting the so-called Rockefeller Republicans, the Lindseys and Scrantons and Romneys into play. And you can make at least normally the argument that, at least in terms of the Senate, we were just discussing it now that group's pretty much down to one or two, maybe the two women senators from Maine. Fundamental realignment from Republican Party that in the Eisenhower years was actually better on civil rights and had the first Black senator at Brook out of Maine into one that took over the racist elements of the South and turned many of the worst from by-standpoint, progressive political figures from the South and to Republicans. It was a time when the generation that had been raised with much of the American value system close to their hearts began and cherished what was the end of the colonial empire and the independence of the great many of the states that had been subjected to European expansion. Found itself involved in a war in Southeast Asia, which many of us came to believe we were on the wrong side of. It was a war of independence and liberation by people that had been fighting off China for a long time, got off French for a long time and now we were fighting off the America. And so it led to this gigantic disillusionment carried over from the (19)50s was the overall nuclear weapons. It was amplified in the (19)60s with concerns about new weapon systems for space-based and or multiple independently targeted entry that significantly increased the destructive potential of any one missile, letting it target perhaps as many as 16 different places from one missile. And the response to that, the form of an anti-ballistic missile system called MX. Stuff was just escalating in ways that struck us as insane, was a sense of identity. Politics came into play for the first time where people began to view themselves in terms of social groups, a Christian coalition, racial identities, very strong and grew out of the civil rights movement. Began to become part of forming political bases, Black voting. And the same thing with Mexican American saying to a much lesser extent, a little with parts of the Asian communities. And then I am guessing for purposes of this conversation, this brand-new social course, first onto the scene on the form of concern for the quality of life, for sustainability, public health, protection of basic natural resources, a concern for endangered species, intactness of ecosystems, all of which had existed as issues for people who were worried the [inaudible] about pesticide, heard about air pollution. We formed the Wilderness Society of the National Wildlife Federation and the National Ottoman Society, Sierra Club decades earlier to work on nature, humans that now found themselves bound together in a movement that was concerned with human health, with energy policy, pollution, livable cities, lead paint, and lead in automobile costs. Somehow finding itself aligned with people who are worried about duck flyways but all coming to understand it or operating from a similar set of values. And they help far more powerful and it is frankly a set of groups that they had before. So the speculation of all those interests into an environmental movement. SM (00:07:12): How do you respond to those individuals who, over the past, well maybe 15, 20 years, continue to take shots at the boomer generation or the (19)60s and (19)70s as the reason why we have all these problems in America today? They are making reference of course to the breakup of the American family, the sexual revolution, the morays, the drug culture. Many of them will even go into the concept of the victim culture. Everybody is a victim and all these issues that they look upon as negative, they shoot right back to the (19)60s and (19)70s when boomers are young. George Willie is one of those individuals who at times will write articles and he will take his shots every so often at that generation. But I have heard other politicians do the same. What's your thoughts on that? DH (00:08:10): Well, George Will is of course a member of that generation and hence he knows because he was growing up at that time. That it was enormously diverse as all generations are. Certainly, the press has always tended to focus his detention upon things that were unusual, colorful. And so if you get a small sub moving out to the woods to try to live sustainably, it may involve a couple of thousand people in the nation, but it suddenly gets all of these write-ups and it makes it seem like the whole generation is doing it. Clearly, there was a fair amount of drug experimentation that went on, but there had been drug experimentation that was going on before it became more visible. What is the word I am looking for here? It became more common place in terms of people's expectations in the wake of Woodstock. But there was serious marijuana use and heroin use facing back to the earliest of the century. Be back. With regard to the breakup of family, I think something has gone on there and some of it was probably good. It was an end to a certain kind of hypocrisy and some of it was probably bad. There seems many instances now to be, in my view, to give up on relationships without putting as much effort into it. I had a friend just the other day, when he was growing up, he asked his grandfather, he'd been married to his grandmother 47 years, a few months after that he was deaf. Excuse me, sorry, one second. And he asked his grandfather, what was the secret? His grandfather said, "Well, it was a different era." And there is something to that. Some stuff did change and much of it was good. It brought us the environmental revolution. I mean, it brought us some formidable ways, the creativity that led to information. SM (00:10:54): When we talk about the boomer generation, we are talking depending on statistics you read, between 70 and 74, 75 million people. And of course, we are talking about different ethnic groups and gender and everything. But when you look at this generation, what would you consider to be some of their strengths and some of their weaknesses in your opinion? DH (00:11:19): That was the point of before I distracted myself, I was talking about George Woo as one of those students. I mean, on any given campus you always had Greeks and factions and they tended to bound themselves a little bit around disciplines, the school of engineering and the business club or conservative with exceptions there too. The credit school must be more progressive along with arts and science. And then you have all of these overlays of different genders and racial groups. When you talk about any of those issues that you brought up before, boy that just delays in different ways and what Will is now pointing at it got the most attention when they were happening. Go back and reformulate that question? SM (00:12:14): Basically, in your opinion, what are some listing of some characteristics that you find very positive about the boomer generation as a whole and at the same time after the positives, some of the negative characteristics as you see it? DH (00:12:32): Well, of course a fair number of characteristics are in the same characteristic [inaudible] Janus faced there. It seems to me not having been around in my parents' generation, but it seems to me much less reference to authority. It perhaps came in part out of learning that we had been lied to about the Tom King, that we lied about various aspects of American intervention in the politics of other countries. Lied to about any number of things. So I am not sure the politicians were ever held on an enormous, but people, the best of them give up many opportunities including solid life, their families and privacy and what have you, to try to survey a broader publication mostly held in this repute. So on the good side, somebody because he or she managed to achieve authority was not taken at face value anymore. But on the bad side of that temporary... It tends to be presumption, that skepticism. SM (00:14:02): You speak up just a little bit too please? DH (00:14:04): Oh, okay. SM (00:14:04): Yep, sure. Yep. DH (00:14:08): Among the good characteristics, I think, I will probably get in some trouble for saying this, but it may have been the most educated generation in American history. Really took a lot of science, a lot of technology, studied extremely hard, and I think came into it with a sounder background than the World War II generation and a better background than people who are passing to today's school for all kinds of reasons. I do not know why the American educational enterprise has deteriorated, as the last few decades. I think it is a true tragedy and out of that came... And again, it is two faces often in different people. On the one hand, ordinary technologies [inaudible] to the New York Bangalore, nanosecond, and at the same time the degree of skepticism of that technological salvation, the concept that our parents would have clinged to now and those parents have survived, cling to now that the answer to climate change will be the magic bullet. That somebody will invent something to take care of them. And that is not much believed by the boomers who think answer there is going to be producing emissions, turning to it. Maybe there are technologies, energy resources, investments in conservation, but there's not the nuclear fusion to something that is going to come in over the horizon and buy cheap power that lets us continue precisely [inaudible]... I think there is a degree of identity with myriad organizations that are outside the traditional ways that Americans organize themselves. It is to say we still obviously have Republicans and Democrats, so a huge number of independence. The former community based social organization, alliances, Kiwanis, are of really strongly declining importance among baby boomers. And we tend to be... Excuse me. SM (00:16:54): Bless you. DH (00:16:58): Excuse me. That is okay. We tend to be involved in organizations that do not necessarily involve our neighbors. So if you look at the memberships of the Natural Resources Defense Council, there are no chapters in the United States. There is an identity with an organization that has a few offices in various regions that have paid staff in it, but it asks relatively little of their dollars, their affiliation, and occasionally to write a letter to Congress. There are certainly no weekly meetings or Mondays or those sorts of... Have largely generationally disappeared at length, bowling alone. I think there is really something to that in terms of the new forms of affiliation and that is becoming even more true as people's more and more online. And now often somebody will have a stronger relationship with a computer friend who shares a set of arcane interests, who has located 3000 miles away and who he or she has never met and I may not know the name of the person who lives next door to them. And that is unique in human experience. But on the other side of that, it may help the very first time to begin to build a sense of world community to the one politically accept prejudice that endures is a person born one inch on this side of a line, arbitrarily drawn on a map, inherently worth far more than a person who was born one inch on the other side of that. And with problems like climate change, protecting the world's oceans, protecting the world's endangered species, dealing with population growth and immigration, they all have to be dealt, particularly as immigration comes forced immigration as a consequence, climate change. They all have to be dealt at global basis and we have to somehow begin to develop this global consciousness. I do not think there would have been a way to do that prior to worldwide web. Still not confident we will do it, but there is at least an attempt, some of that indicating work. SM (00:19:29): Yeah. When you look at the (19)60s, what do you believe was the watershed moment when the (19)60s began and when was the watershed moment when it ended? DH (00:19:41): I suppose the beginning was the Kennedy assassination and its aftermath. You had a subsequent president of Lyndon Johnson who was a master politician and a despicable human being, but a guy who as a political figure was truly extraordinary, as the Voting Rights Act, as the Civil Rights Act, took that thing to Kennedy, gets all of the praise for putting a man on the moon and actually made it happen. Built Houston Flight Control in Huntsville and the whole NASA enterprise. Created a series of programs as part of the great society that were potentially really revolutionary and hitter over some awfully conservative voices in Congress and was so saddled with the war in Vietnam. The primary way that he has thought of today is still, "Hey, LBJ, how many could kill today?" That any case, the alienation that came out of the aftermath, the assassination sense of hope and invigoration and generational shift that so many people challenged by it wanted to go into the space race and wanted to go into the peace for and wanted to get out and do things, suddenly turned into this thing that was set pretty bleak, during escapism into Woodstock, huge number of civil rights rallies, anti-war rallies, iron metals, women's rallies. At all. I think, some large measure after the reelection of Nixon in 1972 that was sent, the hopes of that generation had [inaudible]. SM (00:22:09): Do you think this generation was the most unique generation in American history, the boomers? Because it is a quality that some boomers stuff they possessed when they were young, that they were going to change the world, that they were going to make the world better for the human race. They were going to end, obviously racism and all the isms, bring peace to the world. Your thoughts on this feeling that many of them had that they were unique and secondly, part of this question as they have aged, because the early part of the boomers now are 62. They can now get social security and early retirement if they want to. Have you been disappointed? I know you obviously are an activist who has stayed the course and you know many in the environmental movement who have, but when you look at that generation, how many stayed the course? So it is a two-part question. And please speak up. DH (00:23:13): Sorry. SM (00:23:14): Okay. DH (00:23:15): Just a second. Why do not I just do this, this way. Again, enormous, complex, multifaceted, very diverse. But among those who were at the cutting edge of change, there was certainly a sense of uniqueness and even probably a bit of metaphor rebellion there. We thought we were inheriting the world, but in the wake of World War II, enormous opportunities have been [inaudible] coming into a world in which worlds still commonplace racism, extremely progress in which feature of additional progress, public health, plummeted environment deteriorate. I think there was essentially no doubt in the minds of my friends and I at least, but we would be passing on to our children a world that was far better than the one that became inherited. At least we were committed to doing that. There were Black moments, but God, there is no chance at all. And then you get one of these sweeping victories, you drive a sitting president out of office, [inaudible] Hampshire, you pass a clean air act over the brightened opposition of automobile in petroleum and coal and steel industry. You win it essentially 99 to 1, that there was a sense that, yeah, we really can make a difference here. And I think that there's still time worth the scales to tip a bit further in terms of those changes. Clearly, we now have made fundamental changes in all kinds of laws that affect how women are treated, how minorities are treated, patients are treated, how the environment is concerned. The wave of laws that were passed between 1970 and 1974 have caused multiple trillions of dollars to be spent differently than they would have been spent, but more concerned with clean air and clean water and toxic cases and the conservation of species. And by any cost benefit analysis, it is a hugely beneficial shift of priority. It got that money spent. So I do not want to underplay the degree to which there has been some success, but where I think the real shift may yet come is the brochure, some now sign up for social security. A great many are now CEOs of companies. They're the heads of everything from labor organizations, major hospitals, elected officials to what have you and many will deep at it until their (19)70s, partly as a result of having a whole lot of trades because the retirement program get vaporized. But in part also, because they really are doing stuff that they enjoy and are reasonably good at that. And that is where I have actually had, this is anecdotal, but some disappointment. People that I thought very highly of, their younger days have come to be the CEOs of very major companies and have made choices driven by the demands of Wall Street, driven by their board of directors, driven by all sorts of things. But nonetheless, were involved with the people who were most prominently identified with some really terrible choices. So to the extent that we thought it was a generational thing that encompassed everybody, I do not know that anybody ever thought that, but if they did, it was naive, diverse. But certainly there are people who have done magnificent things and the world is a better place for that. I guess what I would say in just a nutshell that where we succeeded and failed, where we succeeded most on things that directly affected the individual families and individual communities and their health somewhat less at the state level and somewhat less still at the national level. But still even at the national level, fundamental changes in direction and regulation and laws where we were completely unsuccessful was in international relations where the only significant global victories that I think of during that era is some strengthening of international campaigns on human rights. So it is still astonishingly weak and maybe the Montreal protocol on ozone depletion. But the other big global issues, war and peace issues, the rich and war issues, climate change issues, all of those are in worse shape today than they were up 21. SM (00:29:11): Obviously, Earth Day was so important. When you look at these, again 70 plus million boomers, what do you think was the one issue that defined their generation? Was it Vietnam? DH (00:29:30): No, I do not think I can answer that. It certainly was defining for a large number of people who either went for and came back changed or went to Canada, did not think they had not have done to avoid going. And I hope that in the most part that was because they did not want to kill for an unjust war, rather they could not die. Whatever it was, they were altered by it. But there were other people who were completely consumed by... I mean, for women, I do not think that the war was as defined as it was for the people. The men who would have been directly engaged and often we were caught up and defined by feminism. But are in some cases defined by changing standards for motherhood in various racial groups, fighting for social justice and literally for their lives in various parts of it. And for some of us, it was clearly a shift that came from a recognition of a different role for mankind within the environmental movement. There was this very powerful strength that says that you have in the era of fossil fuels from the steam engine, largely defined success by subduing nature. And that has not worked out so well and accomplished prosperity. But you can lead lives of comfort, dignity, and contribution by adapting ourselves intelligently to the principles of college cities and ministries that are compatible with and ecosystems you will continue function, do not undermine nature services, of course, our needs. SM (00:31:41): One of the characteristics of the generation is obviously it was a movement generation because there were so many movements. The Civil Rights Movement was already going strong as boomers are reaching the age of 18, and many went to the freedom summer when they were very young. But when you look at the other movements, including the environmental movement, the Chicano, the gay and lesbian, the women's movement, the Native American movement, and the anti-war movement. Your thoughts on their links to the Earth Day and all the other environmental movements, because there seem to be a sense... And I like your thoughts on this, you had just made some comments about the international community today and how important the sense of community should be that we all need to work together as one. There was a sense of community amongst many of the boomers. That is why they worked well together. And at many protests you would see many of the movements together. When you look at the environmental movement and you see all these other movements, was there a close working relationship between the movement you were involved in and all these others? DH (00:32:56): At the working level where the folks really are representing large numbers of people who share their guilt and respect them and think of them as leaders? There was a high degree of pragmatic interaction. To take just the Earth Day example, as you go across the country, you will find in various rallies, all of the major leading anti-war figures were giving talk, sometimes focused exclusively upon the raping and [inaudible] of the Vietnamese environment, [inaudible] and the night palm, what have you. But one way or the other, tying their issue into it. And then similarly with civil rights leaders who would talk about the environmental, the ghettos about blood paint and rats, toxic materials as environmental issues about the dominant one at that point, freeways cutting through inner city areas, decimating what had been intact neighborhoods. And so there was that level at the extremes of each movement. I mean, they are in the extremes of the environmental movement, and I hate to characterize groups by this, but there are extremes within it that have a racist element to it, have a nationalistic, almost dramatic element to it. In the extremes of the civil rights movement, there were certainly those that were mixing up the search for Black power with the condemnation of things that were not Black and beautiful. And that basically took an organization like the SNC, the Students nonviolent Court, which had been students in mixed race and a whole lot of people, and basically kicked the white folks out. This was all about building from within Black nationalism and in the anti-war movement, I do not know that it is particularly a radical worldview, but there were folks who I think almost had psychological problems. They thought that using a brick through the window of a random florist shop somehow contribute to the movement. Basically they alienated their fellow anti-war and everybody else's, some of the prisons. But at the level that I think you are asking it, there was a broad sense that there was a new agenda that was coming. It was a generational agenda. It was in some large measure, progressive. It had a desire to have a higher degree of equality among all people and opposed to things that treated some as second class. And I think all of that was extremely widely shared. I should say that that led to condemnations from the people because you have an environmental rally, but signs are on simple rights. Signs are about war and all of the stuff. And so they would say, well... And they say the same thing about all of the others. You would go to an anti-war movement and there would be feminist's signs there and they would contend that this is all just [inaudible]. People do not really care about the environment, care about the war, care about whatever the issue is. It is all just a front to pull, a broad base liberal agenda. And it is not entirely false. I mean, most of us cared about all of those issues at a primary identification, which had been all the different events. SM (00:36:42): I am sure that, and I think hopefully activists today, whether they be environmental activists or any of other movements we have talked about, should realize that violence gets no one anywhere and it creates a bad image for the effort that you are trying to work on. I mentioned this because you have already brought up the Black power issue, the challenge with the Black power and the Black Panthers within the Civil Rights Movement, even in the Native American movement, the aim oftentimes got involved in violence. And then of course, in the last 10 years I have read about environmental activists who were violent. I cannot remember the name of the one group. I think it is out in the far west. They are willing to confront people and with violence if they have to, it is that Malcolm X by any means necessary attitude. Have you seen any of that within the environmental movement that by any means necessary, not only in 1970, but as you have progressed through the Earth Day celebrations in 2000 and just your thoughts on that? DH (00:37:59): Well, once again, it is part of this vast diversity and what gets attention and what does not. When you have the Southern Christian Leadership Conference in the NAACP and Urban League and others trying to build a broad-based movement across the races to end the Jim Crow laws that had oppressed people basically from the Civil War, the immediate aftermath. They had enormous support, but the support was very broad, but people did not do very much. And certainly some did. The freedom writers went to the South, Freedom Summer was important opiate brief because of them, but almost immediately to Black power fall. But a theory of change is you build a critical mass, you reach out to as many as possible and you try to move them to a state where they become a powerful force. That was the whole theory behind Earth Day. We wanted to get everybody engaged and pull together something where for a window in time, which we thought was going to be much longer but did last for four or five years, we were effectively unstoppable. But an opposite view would say that in almost any instance, it is a very small number of people who care passionately about an issue that drive change. And most of the time, the vast majority of people cannot focus upon that many issues and maybe they will watch the evening news. But in the evening news, a three-paragraph story is a pretty long story and it is going to be dominated by whatever has pictures and colorfulness. And so although the Black Panthers were never one 10th of 1 percent of what the NAACP was in terms of membership and had essentially no white engagement at all, got an enormous amount of headlines because they were prepared to carry [inaudible] in the streets of Oakland or Chicago. And because they were confrontational and sometimes confrontational to enormously racist entities. And so they dominated the press for a period. Whereas the early stages of the movement up through Martin Luther King, even Joseph Lowery, it was led by mostly southern religious leaders who preached a Gandhi esque code of passive civil disobedience and nonviolence. It shifted over into something that was more akin to urban thugs, but they got the coverage. It became the prototype how you move. A similar thing would happen in pretty much everything, right up until... I mean, when people think about Seattle, most of them think about Boeing and Microsoft and Weyerhaeuser and Nordstrom and Starbucks, Costco and RealNetworks. I mean, for a little tiny city, we have produced a whole number of things that are fundamentally changed. SM (00:41:22): Yes. DH (00:41:24): But for some set of people, particularly those that are involved in globalization trade, there is a pretty dominant image of the battle for Seattle. When the World Trade Organization got here and were formed by the group of anarchists on the streets, that was a couple hundred people and most of them were not from Seattle, most of them were from Eugene, Oregon Group that was down there. But they triggered stuff that caused police to react in a way because of the people to become engaged. It is all of the tricks that were done throughout the (19)60s and it worked. And a couple hundred people there had had an impact that has endured in people's consciousness. There's now at least two movies out about Seattle. There have been thousands of peaceful protests about the way the World Trade Organization has excluded from its consideration a true concern for the environmental attributes of products, the amount of energy that is embedded in products, the degree to which children are employed, the degree to which unions are forced out and on and on. The amount of pollution that is generated in the course of making a product that is then exported. The pollution remains behind. I mean, they get a little bit of attention for a few moments, maybe they educate some people, but nobody remembers any of the violent confrontations that endure. And it is true about what happened under apartheid. It is true about most social insurrections that take place around the world. And as a consequence, there is this genuine tension between two alternative ways of bringing change. My hope was- SM (00:43:19): Mr. Hayes, let me turn my tape here. Hold on one second. (00:43:26): All right, go right ahead. DH (00:43:31): Well, there was this great pivotal point in human history but over a brief period of time. Historically, we had Gutenberg who ironically developed this stuff for the proselytization of the Bible and bringing it for God to the common man. But it led pretty directly into the distribution of information rather broadly and the age of reason and the enlightenment where scientific dispersion method logic were applied to all kinds of politics and economics. Well, it looked like we had made each gigantic leap in terms of human consciousness. We now find ourselves in an era where people, huge portions of American society just pay little attention to people who devoted their entire lives to studying issues and are extremely highly regarded by their peers. They dismissed [inaudible] using intellectuals in a term of disdain and an endorsement of political figures, the ultimate caricature of which is Sarah Palin, who seems to have no agenda other than really, really wanting to be famous and powerful. And somehow the (19)60s and the boomer generation I think played into some of that. I do not have a very clear idea of what I mean by all of that, but I think in that period where the legitimacy of authority was increased in question because the authority had been accused. We came, and I had part of this as well too, do not have much confidence in professors, some of whom had obtained tenure 40 years earlier and had fallen way behind their disciplines. But out of all of that, for some people came almost a disdain for knowledge sense that what you know and what you can calculate reasonably predict in air boundaries is not as important as a deep emotional commitment to a particular outcome. And that is reflects itself a bit from the issue that actually triggered this fast out point of words for me, is to say the emotional types tend to say. And I do not give a damn if 80 percent of the people, I will create a situation in which society has to respond to me. And often violence is a part of that. And it is not so much a Black and white thing as it is a gradation. When people went in and sat in at lunch counters and said, "You do not want to sit next to me, you go sit someplace else." But I have got a right to sit here under the public accommodation clause. They were often met with violence and they knew that they would. And in the early days, they took it and accepted in a Gandhish way on the latter dates, touch me, man, I am going to take your head off it. And among the people in the Southern best writing campaigns you have, many of them were men and women who had affection for one another. And some guy is there and may be prepared to let the police beat him. But when the police start to beat and turn the fire hoses on her, and then suddenly a whole different center of protective genes comes into play and passing civil disobedience does not look so much honorable as it looks cowardly. And suddenly you find yourself giving birth to somebody who's going to strike back at those that were striking them. SM (00:47:59): What you have mentioned is maybe this quality came about from the boomer generation. DH (00:48:07): Well, it came up, it was there on the side of the oppressors. Bo Connors was not a boomer, but he prompted a response. SM (00:48:18): If we had a- DH (00:48:18): I think directly to the Black Panthers. SM (00:48:21): How important were the college students on college campuses and ending the Vietnam War? I have had different responses to this. Some say they were very important, some say not important at all. DH (00:48:33): Oh, I hate to utter these words, but I am confident that they are correct that the war was ended because we had a draft and part of it was a draft that reached into college campuses a bit. But mostly as long as you were in college, you were exempt. So everybody knew that it was coming as soon as they got out, unless they got into medical school or something. So there was an overhanging threat and rather than higher, but we now politely call it professional army, but some in sense can call it a mercenary army. People who are looking for a way to get an education, to get some discipline often to escape an unfortunate family environment. They go there and they go and fight our wars for us. If you were a member of Congress, you would like to be able to kick your kids out of the armed forces. There was a degree of randomness as to who was going to be called and that caused everybody in the country to think hard about that war and about its real consequences in a way that, for example, the war in Iraq, war in Afghanistan have not. They were on the news, but they were one of all of these period issues that were out there. During Vietnam, it was the war that could very well take your son or your nephew, daughter. And so although the students were the principal focal point for the demonstrations when you had the Vietnam moratorium, the march on the Pentagon fueled by people who were then my age, but what really ended the war was all of our parents and the political force that they represented that read large across the society. And then you finally got to the point for me, I think the turning point, if you were to define it, which may say more about my upbringing than anything else, but it was the day that Paul Harvey came on the radio that ultimately was convinced that this was a war that America should not be in. And that is like rush limbo coming out against a war in Afghanistan. SM (00:50:50): Is it Paul Harvey or Walter Cronkite? DH (00:50:53): No, I am talking about Paul Harvey. SM (00:50:54): Oh wow, Paul Harvey. Okay. DH (00:50:57): Yeah. No, Walter Cronkite coming back clearly is the one that got all of the attention. SM (00:51:03): Well, that is interesting. DH (00:51:05): But Paul Harvey just cut the undersides up to people that the military listened to every single time. SM (00:51:12): Oh wow. Yeah. I will never forget listening to that with my mom sometimes. Paul Harvey and Dave, he had that unique quality about him. DH (00:51:22): My dad came home from work every single noon, every day of his life for the type that I grew up with and to listen to Paul Harvey. SM (00:51:30): Well, he had a unique voice and yeah, that was a great show too. Before I get into some environmental questions as I really want to concentrate on and your background, I have two quick final questions here on general things about the boomers, and I want to read one of them. We took a group of students to see Senator Edmund Muskie about a year and a half before he passed away. And he had been in the hospital. He obviously was not feeling well, but he did it because Senator Nelson asked him and he was great. We had about two hours with him, and we asked this question that the students came up with because they thought he was going to respond, talk about the (19)68 convention, and he did not. And this is the question we ask, do you feel boomer generation is still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, divisions between Black and white, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? What role has the Vietnam Memorial played in healing the division says Jan Scruggs says in his book To Heal a Nation? Most importantly, do you feel that the bloomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? And are we wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, time heals all wounds a truth? So just your thoughts and I will tell you what Senator Nelson said because it was great. DH (00:53:03): Muskie? SM (00:53:05): Yeah. Well, Senator Nelson also responded to this question, but Senator Muskie said... We thought he was going to respond by saying, "Boy, we were close to a second civil war in 1968." He did not say anything about (19)68. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And then he went on for about 15 minutes to talk about the Ken Burns series and the Civil War that he had been looking at and how he lost over 400,000 men and almost an entire generation died because of that particular war and what a waste it was. And he said, "Just go to Gettysburg anytime and see the flags. And you will notice on the southern side, the flags are always there, but on the northern side you do not see any." So just your thoughts on whether we as a boomer generation have a problem with healing from all these divisions or is this not even an issue? DH (00:53:59): And of course, as you are in Mississippi, Alabama, there was not a civil war that was the war of Northern Aggression. SM (00:54:07): Right. Yes, you are right. DH (00:54:11): Well, in some great extent, and this runs some of our earlier questions together as well, we are trying to do with Earth Day that a couple of years after the convention. When the nation clearly had been ripped apart, and one consequence of that was Richard Nixon as president, was to bring those people with progressive views together. As long as you could buy into the agenda, there was a role for you. I mean, on our steering committee we had George Wiley of the National Welfare Rights Organization, and we had Dan Lufkin. It is worth a couple $100 million dollars when a couple $100 million meant something as the founder of Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette. And Stanley [inaudible] Wiley is this person who somebody should look at someday. I am not big on the national welfare rights organization, though he did so many things from that. SM (00:55:19): What is his name? His name is George Wiley. DH (00:55:23): He died in a boating accident in the early (19)70s, but he was an emerging civil rights leader. He was a powerfully built African American man with PhD in chemistry and a deep and abiding concern for poor people. He was one of the true intellectuals who could have emerged and played, I think a really powerful role. Unfortunately, he was moved off-stage early. But going back to the broader point, we were trying to bring people together and to the extent that an event could, I think we did just by aggressively going after any entity, any group that appeared to have potential interest in this saying, come and get engaged, going after women's magazines. And in fact, probably the most powerful constituent was married women with one or two children and single wager or households with college educations who just jumped on this movement with the passion. And we got to them through women's magazines, a huge number of which wrote articles about us and the environment. Many gave their telephone number and the street address to contact us back about that Vietnam era. Went after Boy Scouts, went after the National Science Teachers Association, went after a variety of companies that seemed to be doing something quasi green, huge amount of support from organized labor. The largest contributor by far was the United Auto Workers. Other unions with single largest block of support for us and consciously we were trying to build something that was inclusive and in which the middle class would feel comfortable because they had been so much excluded from so many of those other movements by the way that the movements had in the end clustered themselves. We thought that that was the largest block of Americans. It was the ones with the money and the education and the power and the votes, and we wanted to have something that drew them into this sort of concerns. And I think for a while that all worked, but the polarization that is out there today is really very much a right left polarization. And I do not think it has much to do with at least the early concerns, the (19)60s and (19)70s concerns of the boomer generation. It is just this visceral lack of ability of political leaders to build an encompassing vision around what they are trying to achieve. That consists of something other than condemning the other side, not a positive competition of, you said dumping as much crap as you can on the other's vision. Now there are thoughtful things that can be said about various kinds of market mechanisms called for by people on the right. And there are some really useful roles that are played by regulation and by public expenditures that are called broke by people on the left, but there is no ability to treat one another with respect. Political level, and as a consequence, we are just paralyzed. I was on a radio interview a couple days ago and somebody asked me, in all seriousness, if we are unable to get a relatively weak climate bill through the US Senate because of the threat of the filibuster and we just cannot muster 60 votes yet, how could we come up with a treaty that meet the demands of developing countries and the ambitious goals of our European and Japanese allies and get 60 votes for that? That was blown away when I had to remind him of basic civics, you need to get 67 votes to pass treaty. There was a time when we could enter into treaties, but the law of the seas has been out there for what, 35, 40 years now, get the votes to pass it. I do not know how you ever pass a climate treaty, and I do not know how you saved the world without getting us to buy into some sort of an international agreement, but part of that is that no one will pay that attention. You got the climate deniers, you got these crazy people that honestly believe that there's a conspiracy in them. Thousands of scientists and hundreds of research institutions around the world over [inaudible] people's eyes. It is hard to believe that they believe that, but they sure say enormous emphasis. And on our side, there is a tendency to say, well, we have got a complete agreement among all relevant scientists and people who publish peer reviewed articles about all the details of climate change. Because if you get into difficulties and the nuances from the other side will pick you apart. In fact, everybody agrees that the world's... Community agrees the world is warming up, but we will have horrible consequences for all kinds of things at different points. There are just some like tilting point, humans are contributing to it. But within all of that, there is a lot of stuff that is judgment. There is a lot of stuff where you have got conflicting figures depending on whether you are using tree rings or whether you are using ice course or using something else to try to measure what happened a hundred million years ago. I do not know it's just this level of tension that makes it impossible to find a common ground. And we have a country that designed it. Basically the age of reason was all about forcing people to find a common ground like creating these speeds for majorities and super majorities. SM (01:01:14): So in short, really the healing issue is not really the main thing here in terms of the divisions within the (19)60s, these divisions are part of the human condition more than just defining it within a generation? DH (01:01:30): Well, they are a consequence of shifts in the way that that public opinion is shaped. There was a time when people read learned essays and you found the Bill of Rights being debated and people eager to read the next set of learned comment that came out in the newspapers. But people would sit up in the hot sun for eight, 10 hours and listen to the Lincoln Douglas debates where we have a nation that was really designed by a group of intellect. And there's a tendency on the right to treat the founding fathers as people go out and have a beer with. But I do not think that is a very accurate view of Jefferson in Monroe and Madison. Paul, certainly not Washington. SM (01:02:32): Do you see a link here, because you had mentioned people do not trust each other and lack of respect that the issue of trust or lack of trust is another quality that might be within the boomer generation because of so many leaders that lied to them, whether it be Johnson with a Gulf of Tonkin, certainly Watergate with Richard Nixon, but a lot of other leaders and even back in Eisenhower in the U2 when he lied about that. But the lower generation did not seem to trust anybody that was in the position of responsibility or leadership, whether it be a senator, congressman, the university president, corporate leader, even ministers, priests, rabbis, anybody in leadership, they did not trust anybody and whether they pass it on to their kids and grandkids, is that a good thing to not trust? And then is that a quality of the boomer generation? DH (01:03:24): Well, I think it is a quality. In some limits, I think it is a good quality. I think the degree of skepticism emerged because skepticism was warranted. He did not trust people because they lied to us. But what is tragic has been the lies. But that said, and at that point then, because you do not trust anybody and do not trust evidence and will not pay attention to anything that anybody says, I tend to give some deference to a report of the National Academy of Sciences. And so if you have agreement among say, 15 to 20 different National Academies of Sciences from around the world, plus you throw in a bunch of professional societies and they all get to the same basic point, I tend to assign that a very high degree of credibility and a huge number of people do not give a damn, one way or the other. SM (01:04:25): That is bad. DH (01:04:27): And it is related to where I was starting to go, which is that there was a time when at least my view of the past was that leaders were prepared to pay and the public was prepared to pay attention to evidence and then to thoughtful skilled art. And today, there is much more attention paid to images, to commercials that are designed to influence you one way or the other, to the 32nd sound bite, to the emotional gushing of a radio host in an almost evidence free manner. And part of this has to do with advances in human knowledge and how they are corrupt purposes. I mean, the fascinating thing that was on the air the other night, again, it goes back to the old statement, "A dying child is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic." There is something about that. When they were doing fundraising for one of these Save the Children and they had a brother and a sister from some African country, and when they would show ad the sister in it, they would get a very good response of contributions. When they showed an ad with the brother in it, they would get a very good set of responses. When they showed the brother and sister together in the ad, the contributions went down like two thirds. And if they showed 40 kids who were all in this terrible thing or a refugee camp or something that made it a bigger issue, everything just fell off entirely because people tend to think there is something I can do to save this person. There is nothing I can do to save the world. You take those kinds of basic emotional responses and instead of fashioning arguments about what we do to save the world, you play to those basic emotional instincts and it all become a science now. It is tragic. SM (01:06:29): How did you become who you are? In other words, what was the magic moment in your life that turned your light bulb on in your head and said, "I am going to devote the rest of my life to this cause or that cause or I am changing the direction of my life." It's a two part question here. Who were your mentors and your role models that inspired you? Not only when you were young, but it could be Senator Nelson too? Boy, he is inspired me just from working with him in a university. And what was that magic moment when you became an activist? DH (01:07:10): Well, for me it actually was pretty much a precise defining moment. I grew up in a very small town of lumbering and really did not think that there were things that I could do that would be of much impact. And as I read about form work, tragic things including the threat of nuclear weapons, fermentation with chemical and biological warfare down at the south, even the beginnings of the war in Vietnam, I basically went into a world-class belt and really could not see a path forward for myself. And I took off and went to tracking around the world for three years trying to see what was going on in various of society. By then [inaudible] the of the new plant of the fires of Algeria, I would read [inaudible] and wanted to find out what truly going on in. So I took the train across Russia. I had checked all over Africa, all over the Middle East, all over the southwest Asia. Spent a lot of time in Japan. When I was a junior in high school, long before all of this, I was invited by the National Science Foundation to go to an ecology seminar and did it. Anybody who was 15 years old, mostly chased girls, had a problem, the sun. But we also were studying the ways that dragon flies operated inside a pond community. And our academic portion was based on Eugene Odom's text, principles of Ecology. And I studied that for my final exams and did okay. And a lot of the material was really pretty [inaudible] to me. And then I went back and was a senior in the [inaudible]. Well, I was out hitchhiking around the world in Libya. I had an experience one night alongside the road where the road goes from Luderitz, right, intersects the road, goes down to Cape Town. When I went up over a hill at the close of the day, rolled up my seating bag and somehow stuff just came together for me. It was a little bit like conditions in which Old Testament profits had visions. I mean I had been out very alone for a long time by then. I have been basically by myself for a couple of years. It'd been a really hot day. It was a desert cold night. I did not have any decent food, had not any for a time. Somehow what popped into my mind was that ecology seminar and some of the basic principles that I recalled, and at the heart of it all being that life on Earth was driven by energy transactions. And that much of what Darwinian evolution is about is how to make everything just as efficient as possible for individual species and for the way that ecosystems functioned. And it was all dependent upon flows of energy from the sun captured through photosynthesis, released through oxidative possible relations, stored in various ways. And making those systems function as efficiently as possible, ultimately built what we have as most of the modern world except for human beings. Because we had found ways to tap into fossil resources that were unlimited supply. And we had emerged into something that was very different that a 100 years earlier, if you had shown somebody a photograph of an office in Atlanta, Georgia, an office in Phoenix, an office in Anchorage, we could tell you instantly where they were. And now we were in something where they all looked identical and they had this cheap energy being poured into them. And the insight that I had that night that turned me around, sent me back to the United States, got me into law school and tried to affect change was this recognition that this was likely to be a brief episode and that a great many of the problems that we were facing were from our efforts to ignore and even fight against the basic principles of ecology instead of... As Ian Marc wrote about it, and I learned later with Design with Nature and that if we could really do things differently, much learning with what we would now call biomimicry to build what we would now call on principles of urban ecology and industrial ecology. All of this being a vocabulary that did not exist, but which I am intuiting that night, but we could overcome a great deal and reproducing a world in which we cherished diversity on and on those sorts of things and use at least as metaphors within ecologic principles. I got up the phone, I did not sleep at all that night. I thought that this was just this blinding inside I intended to return home and among other things, right in environmental, [inaudible] that it is plain phone in terms, which I have actually tried to do a couple of times and success. But got up the following morning having gone, rolled out the Cleveland bag, was a guy that could not even much think of any reason to go on living and got up the following morning with a pretty clear direction for what I was going to do with my life. SM (01:13:05): Wow. Yeah. Your whole link to Earth Day and your meeting Senator Nelson, and then being the organizer, when you look at that experience of 1970, and can you talk a little bit about the teach-ins, which is a certainly important quality of anybody. It was a boomer that lived, they had to experience or be a part of some teach-in. How important were the teach-ins? Because I know that was part of your responsibility, and what was that feeling like of, again, just that you're young, you are being given responsibility at a very early age to organize this very important birthday event that you care so deeply about in working with people who felt like you are the same way. What was just your feelings of that 1970 and working with Senator Nelson and all the young people on Earth Day? DH (01:14:04): Well, it was an extraordinary opportunity to make a leap in a direction that I was slowly trying to plot my way to work. I mean, I flew down to Washington because I had not heard anything about an environmental teacher at Harvard, or I was at that time or at all until it appeared in an article that Claman Hill wrote in the New York Times based on a talk that Gaylord given down in early house. And since I had not heard of it, I figured nobody was organizing it since they did not mention anybody except Gaylord, just with all of the arrogance of you down to Washington too, even Senator. And my hope was to get the charter to go back and organize Harvard. And what was a five- or 10-minute courtesy conversation was changed by the fact that that New York Times article had been written and mail was beginning to pour into Senator Nelson's office from mostly schools across the country. At that point, from people who had read the article or had read an article about the article and wanted to know how they could become engaged. So we talked in for an hour, hour and a half, and I left with the commission to go up and organize Boston, which was way beyond what I thought of doing when I went down to Washington. Then it turned out that Gaylord had asked Republican Congressman Pete McCloskey to be his co-chair, so that be the Democratic Senator and Republican congressman and McCloskey turned out to be the congressman that represented Stanford, right. And [inaudible] president of the student body and deeply involved in a lot of political stuff. I did not know McCloskey, but when Gaylord asked him about this kid from Stanford, McCloskey, I heard of me and called from the Friends of Banford and took their temperature and basically got back saying, "He seems like he is a pretty soft guy." So I then got a call a week later saying, "Would you consider dropping out of school and coming down and organizing the United States?" That was not a career trajectory that I had. Figured it was just a really powerful new opportunity and really did not even think about it for more than that conversation. I accepted on the spot. It just seemed like in alignment of what I wanted to do. Called a few friends, got some people from Harvard who were my classmates to come down and join me, wish on it. And shockingly, by midway through the next month, it became clear. We began calling around to every university in the country and as a college and university thing. There just was not much interest on the part of the people that we knew how to bolt us together, people with their roots and these various other movements for us. And there were some college chapters in the National Wildlife Federation, what have you. And then there were some colleges where those schools of forestry, or there were no schools of the environment, but something that had to do with natural resources would want to do something. But it was viewed as an educational venture. And it's basically not much more than a seminar with maybe a couple of displays out the court garden. I suddenly had this horrible sense. But I would set myself up for a belly flop and we did this survey of all those letters that had come in and found that... Now, in addition to the letters from the K to 12 schools, we immediately set up a K-12 school coordinator, a guy named Bryce Hamilton did a fabulous job pulling all that together. The bulk of the remaining letters were from these women that I mentioned earlier. Basically between the ages of 25 and 35, college educated, one or two children had not much been involved in anything before that was political, but had a fair amount of talent that they were in homes where the husband was breadwinner and they were around home with their kids, but now their kids were sufficiently out of their hair, that they had time to do some other stuff in this environment that really appealed to them. But also in part because of the impact that would have on their children. And the unknown story of what became was the engagement of these women. I mean, if you did a survey around through some of them are young, hit your boomer criteria of people who went on to become members of city councils, members of state legislatures, members of public service commissions, members of the United States Congress, and asked those that came of age during that period, how many of you had birthday as your first political experience, that the percentages would be staggering. And I virtually never give a talk someplace where there is a female public official when she does not come up to me and say, the first thing she ever do was my first birthday. So there was this huge unexplored thing. Our staff was all kids, and our press coverage was all this, was this youthquake, but in fact, it was this woman's thing that was going on, this slightly older women that fit basic big urban organization. So at that point, while the teachings continued, they basically shifted mostly to K to 12 and then the educational excursions in a few colleges, including a pretty good one at the University of Michigan. But we ran a big ad in the New York Times and dropped the teaching stuff from everything, including our letterhead, and embraced this new name of Earth Day and took it into public demonstrations and things that you could do in various kinds of service organizations and cities would put together, transformed into something that was much more based upon the kinds of things you would see in the civil rights era and the anti-war era in their later digs. I mean, what triggered Gaylord is in the earliest stages of both of those things, there were not college teachings that dealt with racism on campus or dealt with whether the war was a good idea or a bad idea. And then it was firstly debated, 1963, (19)64, (19)65, but by the time he got to 1970, Chen was viewed as a little bit passé on college campuses, and we needed to have a different vocabulary that we could use. That is where our birthday came from. And I want to say on Wheeler's behalf, he was just incredibly flexible about all of this stuff. He wanted to have a bunch, he gave a high degree of deference to us that were trying to actually get out there and organize things. And he embraced the new name with gusto and shifted his own remarks. Although he still did a lot of things on college campuses, he began addressing a lot of community groups. And then the final thing that made it all come together, that is an overstatement, but a final thing that was a huge benefit to us related to Nixon's southern strategy. And the fact that suddenly the future of the Republic Party and the nature of American politics was going in void. And there was a very attractive young mayor of New York, John Lindsay, who decided to inhabit that void. And he was pretty ambitious, and he really liked the environmental issue, and he just jumped into it with us. He assigned principal staff on his staff in New York to work with our organizers in New York City. They put up police protection for free. They gave us the insurance for free. They gave us porta potties around Central Park for free. It closed down 5th Avenue. So the 5th Avenue, you close it down, you got to crowd there instantly. And we had this event in New York City that had more than a million people involved in it. And it was not a teaching, it was a rally. Like most of the things around the country, there was nobody there saying, "No, pollution is a good thing." And a Larry Summers, got to send all your toxic waste to poor countries because the value of human life, poor countries was less than the value of human. It was not that debate at all. It was stop the goddamn pollution now. And that took place in the city where NBC, CBS, and ABC were located, where Time and Newsweek and the New York Times, the United Press, the Associated Press, I mean, it was at that point, New York to a greater extent than any place in the world is today, was the information communications capital. If something did not happen in New York, it is very difficult to convince people that it was happening every place else in the country. But if you have got Central Park and Fifth Avenue filled with prominent political people and celebrities of various kinds and this huge diverse thing there, then suddenly you have the images and you have got the reality that you can peg all of the other stuff that is taking place. Thousands of cities and neighborhoods, villages across the country all became part of this one story. And Lindsey really thought that this was something that he would be able to use to help drive a wedge into a new kind of political future. And he also acutely aware that Ed Muskie intended to use it on the Democratic side. When I was practicing law in San Francisco, my paralegal for a period of some years, a guy named Tom Helic, who was the son of John Helic. John Helic got out of the slammer, came down and had dinner and drinks with us, and we were reminiscing about the [inaudible]. He told me a story that serves my interest, but it also serves his interest. So probably a suspect. SM (01:24:51): Hold on one second. DH (01:24:57): This is going to be probably entirely myopic, but my sense is, if I wanted to look back at the 18th century at the time, people would be caring about the seven years’ war and all sorts of stuff that I cannot even make an intelligent comment about. And today we think of it as it is when the American Revolution took place, began to have the Industrial Revolution curve without anybody thinking of it as great. My sense historically is that the two things that I think will be remembered toward is that it is the era when the Information Revolution was launched, which I think is one of those true transformational technical revolutions. Federally changes everything from commerce to privacy but not fundamentally shaking the world. And the other will be that it is a time when human beings began to recognize that their aggregate activities had acquired the impact of a geophysical force. We can change the climate, poison the entire ocean, and eliminate species. We can do the sorts of things that you typically attribute to earthquakes and volcanoes and asteroids hitting the earth. And that we hopefully, as a result of the work of this generation began to behave more responsibly with regard to all of those things. SM (01:26:39): The thing I am not going to have time to do is ask list names and terms from the period for your response, but I want to end with this very last question. What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? And again, I am going back to that question that Jan Scruggs who wrote that great book, To Heal A Nation, it has done a great job of healing the veterans, but has it done any job of healing the nation in any way? But when you see the wall, what does it mean to you and how do you respond to Jan Scruggs's book title, To Heal a Nation? DH (01:27:31): Well, Myolynn is a good personal friend. We have served on a board together for several years. I think she has done a lot of things that are powerful, but as you could claim of me with birthday, I think she and I both peaked early, but we both aspired things a bit later. I mean, I think it is just most fabulous thing she has done. And I think it did a wonderful job of allowing a multiple sensory acknowledgement, banking and healing of the whole set of people, many of whom went to Vietnam against their builds and did things that were, in many cases, heroic and saved their lives. That was really important. In terms of healing around right, left tensions, Black, white tensions, environmental versus traveled growth tensions. I am not sure that it aspired to do any of that. I have never really thought of it in terms that are broad before. I do not mean that at all to demean of it, but I think it does what it is set out to do, magnificently. SM (01:28:52): Oh, very good. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Denis Hayes Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hayes, Denis ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Environmentalism; Lawyers; Earth Day Network; Solar Energy Research Institute; Bullitt Foundation; Hayes, Denis--Interviews Description An account of the resource Denis Hayes is an environmental advocate, a proponent of solar power, attorney, educator, and founder of the Earth Day Network, which works with over 180 nations in order to build environmental democracy. He was head of the Solar Energy Research Institute and president of the Bullitt Foundation in Washington. Hayes also received many awards including the national Jefferson Awards Medal for Outstanding Public Service. Hayes received his Bachelor's degree in History from Stanford University and a Juris Doctor degree at Stanford Law School. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.198a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.198b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 88:57 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c4d6ad283d879cd2c57695386e5a9c2.jpg 5860cda47a6008db0ab4d7656d49a7bc https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7ac91c723b5a74c28b90c505f681c241.mp3 29eaf9c7e8446999500c3a3ce4fde1f2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dennis Peron Date of Interview 2010-08-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 88:23 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dennis Peron (1945-2018) was an activist and businessman who became a leader in the movement for the legalization of cannabis. Peron served in the Air Force in Vietnam. After the war, he became a Yippie and he also supported gay rights. He sold cannabis from storefronts in the Castro and advocated for medical cannabis. Peron also co-founded the San Francisco Cannabis Buyers Club. Additionally, he co-authored California Proposition 215 which got passed in 1996. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Dennis Peron (1945-2018) was an activist and businessman who became a leader in the movement for the legalization of cannabis. Peron served in the Air Force in Vietnam. After the war, he became a Yippie and he also supported gay rights. He sold cannabis from storefronts in the Castro and advocated for medical cannabis. Peron also co-founded the San Francisco Cannabis Buyers Club. Additionally, he co-authored California Proposition 215 which got passed in 1996. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;San Francisco; Bay Area; Gay Rights; Human Rights Movement; Ronald Reagan; Vietnam Memorial; Medical marijuana.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">San Francisco; Bay Area; Gay Rights; Human Rights Movement; Ronald Reagan; Vietnam Memorial; Medical marijuana.</span> Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Marijuana—Law and legislation; Gay rights; Peron, Dennis--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dennis Peron Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Peron, Dennis ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Marijuana—Law and legislation; Gay rights; Peron, Dennis--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dennis Peron (1945-2018) was an activist and businessman who became a leader in the movement for the legalization of cannabis. Peron served in the Air Force in Vietnam. After the war, he became a Yippie and he also supported gay rights. He sold cannabis from storefronts in the Castro and advocated for medical cannabis. Peron also co-founded the San Francisco Cannabis Buyers Club. Additionally, he co-authored California Proposition 215 which got passed in 1996. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.158a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.158b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 88:23 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2cdb17c591b796711d28b8d6503cfc04.jpg b6b98d87f46918965c563260659fcaec https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/59e828ee3c9d346379ff18ab1acec55a.mp3 d33468cea160fae75511e49a6856261b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2006-11-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Diane Carlson Evans Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Diane Carlson Evans served as a nurse during the Vietnam War in the United States Army. Before joining the Army as a nurse, Evans graduated from nursing school in Minnesota. She was the major contributor to the creation of the Vietnam Women's Memorial.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:4200835,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;25&quot;:[null,0,0]}">Diane Carlson Evans served as a nurse during the Vietnam War in the United States Army. Before joining the Army as a nurse, Evans graduated from nursing school in Minnesota. She was the major contributor to the creation of the Vietnam Women's Memorial.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; Peace Corps; Conscientious objector; Civil rights movement; Women's Rights Movement; War protest; Watergate; The Guardian; Suffragettes; Activism; Troops; Congress; Women in military service; American Memorial; Lewis Puller; Lyndon B. Johnson.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Baby boom generation; Peace Corps; Conscientious objector; Civil rights movement; Women's Rights Movement; War protest; Watergate; The Guardian; Suffragettes; Activism; Troops; Congress; Women in military service; American Memorial; Lewis Puller; Lyndon B. Johnson.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 242:51 Subject LCSH United States—Armed Forces—Nurses; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Evans, Diane Carlson--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Diane Carlson Evans Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 11 April 2006 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:06): Testing, one, two, three, testing. Okay, here we go. Okay, hold on a second. I cannot read this. Oh, you bastard. Diane? Hi, how you doing? I am pretty good. It is pretty early for you. All right, very good. Now let me put on the speakerphone here. Hold on one second. I got it. DE (00:01:23): This is my cell phone and I have just realized it is not fully charged, so at some point it will die. So let me give you another phone number you can call me on. SM (00:01:38): Okay. DE (00:01:39): That is 406-457. SM (00:01:41): 457. DE (00:01:41): 1977. SM (00:01:42): 1977. DE (00:01:45): I will get beeping on my cell phone to warn me that it is going to die so I will let you know and I will hang up and you can call me back. SM (00:01:49): Okay, all right. Well, before we start, I want to say I will be down in Washington next week. DE (00:01:57): Oh, you are? SM (00:01:58): Yeah. I will be there again. I will be there now, I think, since 1994 I have been there every year for Memorial Day and Veterans Day. DE (00:02:06): I have missed you most of the time, I guess. And you know what, I am not going to be there this year for the second time in 25 years. SM (00:02:13): Oh really? DE (00:02:14): I have been out there for 24 years every Veteran's Day and then we always have a board meeting in conjunction with Veterans Day. So, I am going to miss both this year. But my family is kidnapping me. I am turning 60 years old on November 10th. SM (00:02:32): Oh, wow. Well, 60 years young. DE (00:02:32): 60 years young and I have celebrated my birthday every year out there without my family. SM (00:02:39): Oh my gosh. DE (00:02:40): So, we all decided it was time for me to do something fun with the family on my birthday, so we are going up to northern Montana and we will all be together. SM (00:02:49): That is great. DE (00:02:50): Yeah, but I will be back there on the 14th because I am going to be on a panel that WE television, with Creative Streets Productions that did the Vietnam Nurses documentary, is going to have a screening and some of the women in radio and television and others are going to be there. And then following the screening I am going to be on a panel. SM (00:03:12): Excellent. DE (00:03:13): They are going to send the documentary off to film festivals. They are hoping to get some awards, which they just might. It was well done. Did you see it? SM (00:03:25): Actually, I got home that night and I could not find it on my TV set. DE (00:03:29): Yeah, it is on W-E TV. And I could not get it on my cable either. You have to have high end cable, I guess, to get it. SM (00:03:43): Well, will we be able to get that in... DE (00:03:43): Before we hang up, we are getting a shipment and it is supposed to come Monday or Tuesday to the foundation, and then we are selling them. SM (00:03:52): Okay. DE (00:03:53): And we have already had a lot of requests. They will be available next week, just go on online to vwmfcc@aol.com and just tell Cindy you want a copy. She will tell you how much money and all of that, where to send the check. SM (00:04:12): Super. DE (00:04:13): We still do not do Visa, we still do not do credit cards for our product. But anyway, yeah, you can get a copy next week. SM (00:04:23): Good, I will do it. DE (00:04:24): Yeah, it is very well done, Steve. I would highly recommend it. I was very pleasantly surprised. But finally somebody did a documentary that really got it. SM (00:04:35): Super. Well, I got a few questions here for you. Are you ready for your first one? DE (00:04:43): Sure, let us go. SM (00:04:44): Okay. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? DE (00:04:53): Oh, the first thing that comes to my mind is war. SM (00:05:00): Explain. DE (00:05:03): In the mid-(19)60s, my one brother got drafted. 1966 he was drafted. Before that, my older brother joined the military in early 60s. I was tuned in, connected to the military because of my brothers and because of my local neighbor boys who were getting drafted and going into the military. And then when my 4-H buddy and some other classmates of my brothers were killed in Vietnam and their caskets came home, and some of them were farm boys and my father was extremely upset. He hated the war. He did not like the war. And so there was a lot of war talk. Not a lot of war talk, but there was discussion about what was going on with our military. My dad was devastated because we were farmers and his two older brothers went off to war. Then when I started college in 1964, I do not know why really, but I was interested in what was happening overseas from a nursing standpoint. So, I guess that is the answer. SM (00:06:21): Is there one specific event during your youth that stands out above every other event that really had an impact on your life? DE (00:06:33): That is a good question, Steve. Man, you are narrowing in here, are not you? SM (00:06:40): Oh, I think we just lost you. DE (00:06:45): No, I am here. SM (00:06:46): Oh, okay. DE (00:06:48): I am thinking. SM (00:06:51): Okay. DE (00:06:51): I am thinking because that is a pretty direct question, more than anything that affected my life. And you are talking about an experience or an instance- SM (00:07:03): It could be something in your life. It could be something that happened in the world, in the United States, just something that really had an impact on you. DE (00:07:22): I think more than a direct experience or a direct impact, it was more of something seething inside of me to do something worthwhile since I saw the activism and my peers, all men, having to do something worthwhile, like join the military or do something above themselves rather than... how can I say this? Everything that was going on with the assassination of President Kennedy and the Civil Rights Movement. I felt like the little one room country school I was going to and my high school was not feeding me enough information. I was very curious about what was really happening in the country and around the world on a higher level than I seemed to be getting in high school. And so by the time I finished nurses training, by the time I finished college, I was really ready to move on into the world and discover what was really out there and be an active part of it rather than just someone watching it happen. I wanted to be part of what was happening and do something worthwhile with it. I do not know if that makes sense to you? SM (00:08:46): Yes it does. You are part of the boomer generation, in fact you are in the lead of the boomer generation, I think the Boomer generation are those people born between 1946 and 1964? DE (00:08:59): Yeah, I am one of the firsters. SM (00:09:01): Yep. Well, next year is when I hit it. But when you look at the boomer generation as a generation, what are some of the positive qualities this generation had and what are some of the negatives, just characteristics? DE (00:09:18): I would say that the positive things about my generation that I am proud of is that we did answer the call when it was given to us. Many of us volunteered, think about the baby boom generation among the women, 250,000 women joined the military during a very turbulent time in our country when it was very unpopular to go into the military, especially for women because there was still the stereotype of women in the military that they were something to be questioned, or why would a woman go into the military? But these were women who joined because they wanted to serve their country. So, I was very proud of these women, but I was also proud of my generation not only for wanting to do something and serve, and my friends who were going into the Peace Corps, and they were saying, "I do not believe in war. I am going to oppose this." And I thought that that took a lot of courage and they became conscientious objectors. So I was proud of my generation for serving, but I was also proud of my generation for speaking up and for using their voice to identify what it was they cared about and then moving forward with that rather than just sitting passively back in a classroom and watching the world go by and wondering what to do about it. They actually got out in the street. And the women's movement, the Civil Rights Movement, that was all part of the baby boom generation. And Steve, I will tell you, I really resent the use of the term that we are the me generation. And in fact, J. Carter Brown, and if this is identified I have the article, J. Carter Brown, as you know, was the chairman of the Commission of Fine Arts that rejected carte blanche the whole idea for placing a memorial in Washington DC to honor women. And that hearing, where the site and the design in our proposal to honor women was at Vietnam Veterans Memorial, and he absolutely rejected it. This was the first hearing. And then later when he was interviewed by a newspaper journalist, and I have the article so it is on record, I am not making this up. I can send it to you if you want the exact words. But he said that I was part of the me generation so he would just have to see where this goes. I was so angry about him calling me and my generation the me generation when it was my generation, because he was referring to me, I was a veteran, it was three million of us in the me generation that went to Vietnam and over 58,000 of that generation he was referring to whose names are on the wall. We were not the me generation. We were the generation that thought outside of ourselves and were willing to go to the streets to protest the war. I am one of the Vietnam veterans who... I do not hate the war protestors... I hate the results of what them did in that somehow the protesting of the war ended up on the soldiers. Now protesting the soldiers rather than protesting the war, it needed to be divided and protest the war but do not protest the soldiers. And somehow that got muddled. And when we look back on that, we wonder how that could happen but it did. I was proud of my generation for speaking out and doing something and going to the streets and being seen to protest something they did not believe was right. So I guess when I think, I had a knee-jerk reaction to Tom Brokaw's The Greatest Generation, and it is okay to name a book that, but now all of a sudden it is like the only generation that was great in the history of America, the greatest generation is World War II, which I find just another hurtful thing that was put on the greatest generation, if that is what we were going to call them. We are the children of the greatest generation, so if we were the children of the greatest generation how could we be so bad? I mean, they produced us. SM (00:13:46): Right. DE (00:13:49): They produced us and they raised us. And I am proud of our generation. SM (00:13:55): Well, so am I. DE (00:13:57): Yeah. SM (00:13:59): If you were to just list a couple characteristics, qualities that the boomers possessed, what would you say would be the positive ones and what would be maybe some negative ones? DE (00:14:10): Okay, well, I would say we were bold. I would say we honored our parents, the World War II generation, and we looked up to them for what they did. I mean, I was very much in awe of my aunt who served in World War II, and she was a role model for me. I was proud of my dad for what he did in World War II. He was a farmer and he also worked at an ammunition plant. He had kids so he did not get drafted, but he did his part and he rationed his tires and he rationed sugar and my mom talks about that. I am proud of them for what they did and how they sacrificed for the war. They sacrificed for the war effort, and I knew how they sacrificed because I grew up on the farm that did not have what we needed because of World War II. So I think my generation, we had some role modeling and we used that and we used it in positive ways, and that is we too wanted to serve so we did. We wanted to be our parents and serve our country. But what my generation did was we started asking questions, and we started asking lots of questions. So therefore, some members of my generation became what was coined anti-establishment. And maybe it was not so much anti-establishment but questioning that establishment and not obeying it, but rather maybe wanting to change some of the old laws like civil rights, like the laws for gender, women, that affected women in negative ways. So, it was my generation that not only looked kind of in awe at our parents’ generations, but we also said, "Hey, it is time for change." And so it was my generation that made extraordinary changes. SM (00:16:14): One of the things you often read in the history books, and you will remember this when you were young, is the generation gap, that there was a big separation between our parents and us because we were challenging the war or getting involved in other things. What are your thoughts on the generation gap? That was a term that is often defined as part of the (19)60s generation. DE (00:16:43): Yeah, we are coming up with all those phrases that were just... Well, the generation gap is I think what might define the why we did challenge the status quo. And while I did not feel the gap with my parents, because my parents were very anti-war, they did not believe that war Vietnam was right. They were questioning the administration as well. So, I did not feel a gap with my family, but I know so many young men and women did because their parents said, "You serve and you do not question." So, I know some of my peers could not talk to their family so they did not. They literally did not go home and they had big fights, and they fought so horribly that they just avoided each other completely. So there was definitely a gap between parents and their children during this time. And some of those sons went to Canada, as you know, some just disappeared and either became conscientious objectors and were working at hospitals in states and their parents... I mean, there is one couple I know they did not know where their son was for about four years. He had gone off to live in a commune with a distant relative. And the mother, every time I saw her, she could do nothing but cry because she did not know where her son was. But he had gone off to live in a commune. He was not going to live with the status quo. So yeah, the generation gap was a distancing between the World War II generation and the Vietnam generation, because so many young people just could not seem to come to terms with that generation in that we were scorned, some of us, for questioning the government because you do not question the government. The commander in chief makes the decisions and you salute and you move forward. But we asked questions of everything and we defied a lot of the rules. When I am saying that it is collectively, many defied the rules, broke the rules and wanted new rules. The negative part of that, you and I both know, Steve, lots of rules were broken that should not have been and there was violence. There was terrible violence on both parts. There were violent young people who used their philosophical disagreements with what was happening in America and they took to the streets in violent ways, and that is never an excuse and it is never a way to solve problems in my estimation. And the blowing up of buildings on campuses, the harassment of others, the burning of the flag, I do not believe we should burn the flag but I also believe that you should not go to prison for it because if people are burning the flag they are making some kind of a statement that they are allowed to make that. So I think it created a temperament in the country that it was okay to do anything to show your rebelliousness or your displeasure or your disagreement. What was the other phrase we used? Let it all hang out? SM (00:20:23): Yes, let it all hang out. In fact, that was a record, remember? That was a song. DE (00:20:25): Right, yep, and then it was like let it all hang out. So consequently, Stephen, the younger generation needed to do this in a visible way so they wore clothes that had never been worn before in that manner. They let their hair grow long and ratty, that maybe had not been done since, I do not know, the 1600s or something. But the defiance was not only with words and behavior, but it was also in the dress of my generation at that time. And that they visibly wanted to show the world that they were different. And now I am using the word [inaudible] because I guess I did not rebel in that way. We used the word hippie, but I always said, "Well, I never looked like a hippie." I was part of the hippie generation but I did not get into the... I guess I felt, Steve, that I did not need to rebel. My way to rebel, I think, was to... I did not take to the streets, but instead I joined the military because what I wanted to do was something valuable. And the only thing that I knew that I could do that was valuable, and remember, I was pretty darn young. I was only almost 21 when I got out of college and 21 when I was in Vietnam. So actually, I was 20 out of college, went to basic training, went to Fort Lee, and then had my 22nd birthday in Vietnam. I was a farm girl who was raised to be a hard worker and dutiful, and the only thing I knew was nursing. And so, I guess I can look back now and say I had the courage to go to Vietnam and be a nurse, but I would never have had the courage to march down a street and throw rocks at buildings or start a fire somewhere. I could not do it in a physically, what is the word, aggressive way. Whereas some of my peers, they were not nurses, they were struggling with how do I show the government, how do I show the country, how do I prove to my parents that I do not like what is going on and I want change and I want a difference? And of course, the negative, Steve, we both know, is sometimes certain individuals, certain human beings, all they need is an excuse to be violent. And some were. It was an excuse to be aggressive. And there is no excuse ever for trying to, I guess, expose your beliefs and show how you care about things, there is no reason really to do it violently. Of course, I am a more peaceful person. But I felt privileged that I was a nurse and that I could do something with that and so I joined the military because I thought about my brothers and I thought it was the right thing to do. And I only joined if they said I could go to Vietnam. And of course the military does make you promises and they break half of them, but they did follow through with their promise. They sent me to Vietnam. SM (00:23:33): When you look at the years when you were young in Vietnam, and now, have you changed your thoughts on the Boomer generation? Are your thoughts pretty consistent, the same as they were back say in 1975? Are they the same today in 2006? DE (00:23:53): About our generation? SM (00:23:54): Yes. Have you changed? Some people as they get older they change their thoughts because it is part of the aging process. DE (00:24:08): I gotcha. I am going to have you call me back because my cell phone is beeping. SM (00:24:09): Okay. DE (00:24:09): Okay, bye-bye. SM (00:24:12): Bye. Yeah, the question is have you changed at all your opinions on the Boomer generation from the time you were young to today? You are still young, but- DE (00:24:23): Yeah, right. Well, I do not know if I am going to answer this in a way in which you are looking for, but I will say this. Of course it changed after I graduated from college went into the military and served my year in Vietnam and I came home. And when I came home, I was very disillusioned with America and I was very angry at our government for- SM (00:24:50): Diane, could you speak up a little bit more? I cannot hear you. DE (00:24:54): Now it is the phone that I am on. Maybe I will get a different phone. Does this help at all? SM (00:25:03): Let us see. Yeah, that is a little better. DE (00:25:06): I am going to get a different phone. SM (00:25:07): Okay. DE (00:25:08): Sorry, I did not recharge my telephone- SM (00:25:17): That is all right. DE (00:25:18): ... last night, because when I got up the morning, I thought, "Oh, shoot, my cell phone is going to run out too." Okay, I am going to try this phone now. Try this, is this better? SM (00:25:30): Oh, yeah, it is a lot better. DE (00:25:31): Okay, that is an old phone. So when I came home from Vietnam in 1969, it was a different country since I left. Of course, I was a different person too then when I left. But it did not take me long to see a 1969 the angry country that I lived in. I felt, on one hand, I was glad that my peers and so many people in America were opposing the war and had taken to the streets, but then I also began to feel, and things that I had heard about while I was in Vietnam, what was being taken out on the soldiers. And then I began the doubt and question, and how can people turn on us, on the soldiers? And I had just seen how these young men had suffered and died and I saw the courage that they had and what they had done for this country and then to be scorned when coming home. And being told literally, you have heard the stories, I was told to not wear my uniform home, and I did not have anything but my uniform to wear home. And of course, that caused some very unpleasant things that happened at the airport in Minneapolis. And I thought, "This is Minneapolis. This is Minnesota. Minnesota is nice." I could not believe the reception at the airport in Minneapolis. And so I began to have a lot of anger that the country could on one hand send us after to war like they sent the World War II generation, and were so proud of them and proud of them when they returned, and no one was proud of us. It was to the point where they were opposite of proud. They did not want to look at us, they did not want to deal with us. They turned on us. And when I say they, that is some, that is not the whole country, but many did. And so, I became very confused and frustrated and basically very angry, but I was internalizing it all. But at that time, Steve, I had not found my voice to be able to speak out, and I did not take to the streets in '69 like the veterans before. In fact, what I did was, because I was not dealing well as a nurse in a civilian world, I was out for less than a year and went back into the military and that is when I went to Fort Bend, Houston, and went back to taking care of wounded soldiers. They were coming right from Vietnam. I was in the intensive care unit. So, I went back to doing what I did well and that was nursing, and it probably saved my life because I did not fit in the civilian world and I was very unhappy and I was isolating myself. I just was not dealing well with anything except I could go to work in the military and do my job and take care of the soldiers. So, the rest is history. No, the rest is not history because then after that, I did not find my voice until the dedication in 1981. But getting back to the Boomers, so the way I looked at the Boomers then was that we were a generation that was trapped by a government that was trying to control us, and by some parents that were trying to, and old values that were trying to control us. And my generation was dying. I mean, I saw my generation dying one by one by one, because then after I came home my peers were committing suicide. And then I was learning that they had Agent Orange and they were dying of that. But my peers were dying after Vietnam. And of course I stayed in the military for several years still so I saw them dying in the hospital. But then when I got out of the military, I saw my peers dying. So, when anybody says to me that we were the me generation, which insinuates that we are selfish and self-absorbed and just think about ourselves, I disagree with that, and I find that is one more way to demean our generation. And this is what people in this country did, and the government did, was they denigrated us. They demeaned us. They named us drug-crazed, glassy-eyed baby killers. The movies came out and the Vietnam vets were portrayed as killers and baby killers. Well, what did the country spend them there for? They taught them in base camp, I mean, you go to war and that is what you do, you kill people. And these young boys did not want to do it. They were told they had to do it. The way I look at the Boomers today is that like the greatest generation, World War II generation, I have watched the Baby Boomers, my generation, really work hard to move up into the world and become good citizens despite the fact that they have had to internalize deep, deep pain and anguish over their service and overcome the enormous challenge to get on with life when we have been so slandered, which most people, plus the vets, even understand that. And that does not diminish World War II generation either. They came home with pain and anguish and drama from the war and wounds that never healed. And they had to overcome all of that too. But at least they could say to themselves, "I did something that I could feel proud of. We won the war. Look at what we did." And I do not think anybody's ever proud that they killed someone, so I am not saying that any soldier would say I am so proud I killed somebody. But they could feel proud that they made a difference for their country. Like World War II [inaudible] can say, well, this is what [inaudible] we were allowed to feel proud of- SM (00:31:45): Still there? DE (00:31:46): Yeah, I am here. SM (00:31:46): Okay. How important was the Boomer generation in ending the war? And I am speaking, one of the criticisms of the Boomer generation is often, well, there is 70 million people and only really 15 percent were involved in any sort of activist activity to end the war, be involved in the Civil Rights Movement. And oftentimes the media will portray the generation it was a small number of people that were involved in these kinds of movements. Your thoughts on number one, whether it is oftentimes how a media portrays the generation as smaller numbers of people being involved in these things, and number two, basically the overall impact that the young people had in ending the war in Vietnam. DE (00:32:38): First of all, Steve, the media is fickle. And now look at what the media does to Vietnam vets. Now, today, we are all heroes. We are all heroes. Anybody who wore the uniform is a hero. And in fact, now we have gotten a directive from the VA, maybe you know this, that the week of Veterans Day now we are all supposed to wear our medals to show that we served our country and our pride, and now we were all supposed to wear our medals. And of course, the media picked up on this, and now all the soldiers serving in Iraq are considered heroes. So, I am not quite sure what a hero is anymore, because when I was in Vietnam I knew who the heroes were and I never considered myself a hero. And most of the people I served with did not, we reserved that word for somebody who was really extraordinary. I mean, if somebody says to me, "Diane, you are my hero," I will say, "Well, I appreciate that. Thank you very much," and I will accept it. But I do not put that word on an entire generation or an entire group of people, because then who are the heroes? But anyway, now I lost my train of thought. Oh, well the media is fickle. And where was the media during Vietnam in that I was very proud of the media early on and during the years where they really tried to bring this home to America. That is another thing. The media during the Vietnam War brought the raw, horrible, heinous, tragic truth back to America on the six o'clock news. And at least the people were able to see on television how heinous war is and what it does to the human body and at what it does to civilians, children especially. And so, I am one of these people that actually believed, and still believes, that if we are going to have a war, let the American people, everybody, every single one of us, see what is happening. Let us see what it is doing to civilians. Let us see what it is doing to our soldiers, because then maybe we will have a gut reaction to it and maybe we will stop it... reaction to it and maybe we will stop it. So they brought the raw truth home. But when the soldiers came home, the media picked up on rag tag soldiers who somehow looked disheveled and the soldiers who became war protestors themselves. And somehow the media, to me, and it is not entirely true maybe, but on a very grand scale, I think the media was also to blame in how soldiers were treated when they came home from the war. Rather than keying in and picking up on the stories about what the soldier had done and how he had served his country, or she, and a report on that... And that happened. It did not happen until 1982, in my estimation. This is all my opinion. But in 1982 when the wall was dedicated, and I went out to the wall for that dedication and all of a sudden, I felt this sense of the country was turning to really look at who we were as soldiers and veterans. And I was followed around by this cameraman because I was wearing my booty camp from Vietnam. And he followed me around and finally I thought, "He is following me." And this has never happened to me before. And I looked at him and I said, "Why are you following me?" And he said, "Well, you were in Vietnam were not you?" And I said, "Yes." And he said, "Well, what did you do in Vietnam?" And I said, "Well, I was a nurse." And he said, "Well, can I interview you?" And I had such a knee-jerk reaction and so much distress like, "What is he going to do with this interview?" And so I said, "No." I said, "Would you please go away? I just want to be alone. Just leave me alone." And it was like I felt like he wanted to exploit me like I had been exploited before. And so, I did not trust the media. But after the dedication of the wall, there were stories that were published in every major newspaper across the country about Vietnam vets, who they really were, where they came from, what they were doing today, how they were feeling. And so it took a long time for the press to come around and start putting us in a more accurate light. And of course, that is all we wanted was the accuracy and we just wanted the truth. We did not want to be turned into a bunch of heroes or turned into something we were not. We just wanted the truth. And of course, then that gets into the next phase of my life, Steve, which is there was something seething inside of me again that I just wanted to do whatever I could to help this truth be told. And the truth was that the women who served in Vietnam were completely invisible and then they were invisible again at the wall after the dedication of the statues of three men. And so, I just felt like, "I need to do something constructive with how I am feeling or it is going to kill me." In about five minutes, I have got to switch my tape here, but a very important question. And that is, when you look at the issue of trust, one of the questions I have been asking all of my interviewees is the question of this quality of trust and whether we have it within the Boomer generation because of all the experiences we had growing up as young people watching Lyndon Johnson say the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. And of course a lot has been written about that. That was a lie. We go back to President Kennedy and how we got in Vietnam and there was some questions there. We go back to Eisenhower and the U2 incident and how we lied in public. And then of course we all go back to Watergate, which was an unbelievable experience for young people. And many of the Boomers, if not most of the Boomers, just did not trust anybody in positions of power and responsibility. And my question is basically this, as Boomers have grown up and have gotten older and raising their families, are we a generation that just does not trust? And by not trusting people and not trusting leaders based on our experiences, what is this doing to the next generation? Well, I think, Steve, that it is only some members, and of course neither one of us know. SM (00:39:56): Diane, could you speak up just a little bit? DE (00:39:58): Yeah. SM (00:39:58): Okay. DE (00:39:59): Neither one of us know what the percentage is of our generation, but they are out there, who do trust. And that I am so surprised. And I am so disappointed in many, many members of our generation that would trust this president of the United States to go to Iraq, preemptive war, without the evidence that states that they had... And from the very, very beginning, I was absolutely against preemptive war. And I did not trust. And of course, one of the things that I came home with Vietnam was the sense that I could never become complacent. I was actually afraid of becoming complacent because I was a little afraid after I came back from Vietnam and I was so quiet that I had all this stuff going on inside me but I could not use my voice and I did not know how to be an activist and I did not know what to do with all these thoughts inside of me and all the feeling that our generation had been betrayed and lied to. And so, after the dedication of the wall when I was able then to take something tangible and move it forward, and it took 10 years, and maybe it needed to take 10 years for those years to have to raise the awareness and raise discussion and bring in the support that was necessary and help people become educated and change their minds and all of that. But where are the members in my generation who did not stand up to this government and say, "We learned lessons [inaudible] and are not going to [inaudible] and we have not been attacked by Iraq. We were attacked by Al-Qaeda. Let us put our energy there?" Where were the members of our generation in influential positions in government and Congress and as consultants that did not rise up against like we rose up in the (19)60s and said, "No, we will not support the president on this?" And I have had discussions with fellow Vietnam vets who have just saluted President Bush and said, "Well, I agree with what he is doing. I think we need to go over there." And so now look at the mess that we have. And I think that we could have risen up against the president. And as you know, Steve, I have been all over the country talking to university students and I talk to honors groups and I talk to political science classes and I talk to history classes and I talk to gender, women's studies classes. And when I am through talking, invariably one of the people in the room will say, "I do not know what is wrong with our generation. Your generation revolted to protest it. You went into the streets and you did all this stuff, but we were not doing that and we do not know why. How come we are not... Why are we still doing nothing?" And I just found that really interesting because now why are not they? And where were the [inaudible 00:43:19] country? There were some of us who were protesting in our own way by writing letters to our congressmen and disagreeing with the policies of this war in Iraq. But members of my generation who have been there and who could have made a difference, and some did, some did speak up against it, but it was not powerful enough. And we have lost our reputation around the world because of what this president has been allowed to [inaudible] SM (00:43:56): Good points. One of the things that we look at our generation when we were young, many of us said that we were the most unique generation in America history. We are going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. We thought we were going to be the panacea and the cure-all to ending war and on basically a lot of the bad things that were happening in the world at that time. When you look at the generation making those kind of comments when they were young, just your thoughts on is the Boomer generation the most unique generation in American history? DE (00:44:38): I do not think so, Steve. Because [inaudible] like saying that World War II was the greatest generation, what about [inaudible]. What about that- SM (00:44:46): Diane, I cannot hear you very good. Could you speak up just a little bit more? DE (00:44:51): Yeah, I will get a little closer into the phone. SM (00:44:54): Okay. DE (00:44:59): I personally do not like to categorize and put everything into a box because when we talk about the greatest generation, what about the Civil War generation? What about the Revolutionary War? What about the founding fathers and what about the generations of immigrants that came and leveled all those trees in the land and built log houses and battled every kind of hardship, every kind of horrible hardship possible that you and I cannot even imagine? They were a great generation and they were a unique generation too. So, no, I will not say any generation is the most unique or any generation is the greatest because I think that is unfair to all generations before us who have done enormous things to build this country into what it is. So, we could say we were a unique generation in that we stood up to establishment. And the outcome of that is women do have it better. Civil rights did make a difference. And we were not there yet. And women still are not there yet. We still have a long way to go, but that is the process and that is life. Keep fighting old battles over and over and over again because we are human beings, we fall into old traps. But I guess where I am disappointed in my generation is that we did not do more to prevent this president from entering into a preemptive war without solid factual information. And I am not a pacifist because I believe in defense and I believe our nation- ... that is going to happen because we are human beings. And human beings seem to love war and trample on other people's territory and [inaudible] other people's territory and want what others want. But where was my generation in defying the lies that were being said to us? And I blame the media for a lot of this because here, the fickle media again, some of our media sources which are headed by corporations who have agendas that slant the news to a point where the media is an arm piece for the politics of the administration rather than telling the truth. Where is the truth anymore? And the American people are hard pressed to know what the truth is unless they read The Guardian. And I read about 10 newspapers. Thankfully, I can go online now. But I am certainly not just going to read the Independent Record, which is my paper here in Helena. And I go online and I read papers from all over the world and I read all kinds of newspapers to try to get the news because I know I am not getting it on television. But that takes time and it takes interest. But if people just watch Fox News, very intelligent people when they say that they watch Fox News, they support everything the president does because they are watching Fox News. I just find that abhorrent. And I guess maybe that is because I am of my generation where you do not believe everything. You question, question, question, question. And for me to be... There is this blood thirsty, counterfeit patriotism in the country right now. And it is blood thirsty and it is counterfeit not through patriotism. And patriotism is not supporting the president. Patriotism is supporting the Constitution and believing enough in the Constitution to keep the Constitution intact. And it is believing in America. You were not in the military, Steve, but in the military, we were taught as officers that we are... We take an oath to uphold the Constitution. You do not take an oath to uphold the president of the United States. What if the president is wrong? And so, to me, there has been a lot of phony patriotism in this country with the flag waving. And if you think if you put a yellow bumper sticker on your car that says Support the Troops, that is all you have to do.... So, I have given a lot of talks here and all over about what it really means to support the troops. I said, "Bumper stickers and flying the flag are ceremonial. And it is good to fly the flag. It is our flag, it is America's flag. But if you fly it only because you think America is best in the world and we can do anything we want to protect ourselves to the point of imperialism and moving in on a country and just setting up bases and all under the guise of lies, I differ with that." And so, I have been called unpatriotic because I do not support Bush. But they do not hurt my feelings. I know who I am and I know what I have done. And I have dedicated my career... My entire life, my entire career, has been dedicated to advocating for veterans, for the soldiers. And talk is cheap, but it is what you do that is the truth. SM (00:50:43): That is beautiful, Diane. That is beautiful. A question here. What will be the lasting legacy of the Boomer generation? When the best history books are written, they are often 50 years after an event end. The Vietnam War ended in (19)75. So really if you look at that, the best history books are still to be written on this year are probably in the year 2025. Just your thoughts on the lasting legacy of the Boomers? DE (00:51:13): Yeah, well, the lasting... Let us hope, Steve, and I will make this very clear, let us hope that whatever the history books write that they try to write the truth. And that is always the problem. It is like history according to whom, Lee or Grant? But if they write the truth and they really look at our generation, they will see that our generation was exploited and used by a government on false premises, on lies. And look at the historical, the war itself, and what that did to my generation and what it did to the people back home and how it enriched a lot of people and corporations. And what those enriched corporations have been able to do with the money to abuse next generations, which is the corporate greed, the corporate... Halliburton and how corporations and newspaper corporations and how that evolved so that they could one day use their agenda to exploit the American people. But I think the legacy of my generation is also that we defied the system, that we asked questions and we made a difference. And that maybe in every revolution there has to be, not has to be, but it seems like in every revolution for people to be heard, they have to do radical things like women going braless. I never took off my bra [inaudible] to make my statement known, but some women felt they needed to do that. To be heard they felt they needed to be radical. And the suffragettes, they were radical. Think about the early 1900s and what the suffragettes had to do to get heard, they were radical. Of course, my radicalness was to join the military. But each person in my generation found a way to either use the system by defying it by... Because of the deferment, college students could stay in college and not go to Vietnam. And now we can criticize that, but that was the system. That was the way the government set it up. Now, I believe that there should be no deferment. And I believe in the draft. If we are going to have a war, draft every man and woman in America. And then because it is going to touch every man and woman in America, every son or daughter, then they will speak up and say, "Hey, this is not a war I think is worth fighting." And if they do believe it is worth fighting, they will put the uniform on. But a draft is a great equalizer. It makes people think. It is going to affect them. It is not somebody else's kids like the voluntary draft. But having said that, the legacy of my generation will also be that they went to Congress after the war and told Congress what their problems were and that they needed help. And they filed a class action lawsuit against Agent Orange because the VA would not help them. When they were dying from poisonous exposure to their war experience and the government was not there to take care of them, they filed a class action lawsuit. That is one example. They went to Congress and said, "We are committing suicide by the tens of thousands. We are depressed, we are having problems." And because of Vietnam Vets, we now have the Vet Center. The Vet Center, by legislation, was adopted in 1979 and it is now a place where Vietnam vets, World War II vets, any vet, is now able... It was set up for Vietnam vets, but now it is any vet. And veterans coming home from Iraq are already going to the Vet Center. And they are being identified more quickly with post-traumatic stress disorder and they are getting the help that they need soon rather than years and years and years after the war. So Vietnam veterans have made a difference in legislation and civil rights. And because of us, women today have more rights. That is part of our legacy. And I know I am forgetting a whole lot. And we also have a memorial on the Mall in Washington DC, something no other veterans had not done. And it was necessary for the education and for the healing and for helping to expose the truth. And following those memorials, there were all the others. And there is one more thing, and that is we forgot our prisoners of war. All other wars, we have left them behind and the case was closed and the issue was over. Vietnam vets today are still out there demanding that POWs return home. So my generation of Vietnam vets changed how America looks at how we treat our POWs and bringing them home. Of course, this administration under President Bush has gone back to the dark ages with the whole issue of torture and how we treat other prisoners of war. And that is a whole other topic. SM (00:56:50): Right. I want to ask a question about the term activism. Activism on college campuses today, at least at our university, they look upon the word as a negative term. They say, "This is a term that is from another era, another time, and it is not really defining today's college student so come up with another term." I just did an educational session at a conference on this with a couple students. DE (00:57:19): What is the term? SM (00:57:21): Activism. DE (00:57:22): Oh, okay. SM (00:57:23): There seems to be feelings that activism is a negative term for whatever reason. Your thoughts on just saying the word activism in today's society and just your thoughts on activism as not only as an action, but as a word? DE (00:57:41): Well, I think we need to listen to our younger generation and what they are trying to tell us. Because the word feminism is the same. They do not like the word feminism. They do not identify with it. They wonder why we use it. And my son, my oldest son, when he started college, because he grew up with me in a feminist household because my husband is definitely a feminist, and we had discussed it and he knew about it and he was very proud of it. And so he was in class and he was shocked because the teacher brought up a discussion of feminism. And the women in his class, literally, they did not consider themselves feminist. They did not care about the word, what does it mean to be a feminist? They were just oblivious. So, it is not our responsibility. It is up to the young people, the younger generations today, to come up with their own terms, to come up with their own beliefs and to come up with whatever works for them. And if activism and feminism conjure up some old fogy or, "That is in the dark ages," kind of reference like maybe we looked at references from my parents' past... And I hardly knew what the word... Honestly, Steve, I do not think I knew what the word suffragette meant or disenfranchised. Those were not words I was familiar with until I got into college and really started reading about it. So the younger generation today needs to come up with something they can believe in, something is their torch. What is their torch? What is their mantra? I do not really know. And I get the same thing when I talk to students all over the country. It is like they have not come up with some guiding principle or something they are willing to lay down and give up their time and their money for. They were very worried about, and as they should be, their jobs and how they were going to feed themselves and how they were going to pay the bills. But maybe that is the generation that is self-absorbed. And I am not going to call any generation the Me generation because I do not think it is fair. But the generation now, I think because they are seeing the disillusionment with the war in Iraq... But again, it is not touching a lot of them. Because unless they are in a family where they have a sibling serving in Iraq, it is still pretty remote. So, I do not know. SM (01:00:13): The question here about healing. I want to read something here and I would just like your comment, "Do you feel that the Boomers are a generation that is still having problems with healing? The Vietnam Veterans Memorial and the Women's Memorial did a great job with veterans and in some respects the families of veterans. But do you feel that the healing has really taken place in large numbers beyond the community, and for that matter, within the community?" I am referring to, have these memorials really healed the nation from the Vietnam War? And there is two kind of questions here. Number one, what job has it really done for the veterans and their families? I see it every year when I go down there. I think there has been a lot of healing in the Vietnam veteran population, their families. But what has it done to the nation, to the Boomers, the 70 million who were alive during the Vietnam War and has it really healed the nation? DE (01:01:14): I am not sure it has, Steve. And I agree with you in that of course- SM (01:01:19): If you could speak a little louder. A little louder. DE (01:01:21): Yeah. SM (01:01:21): Okay. DE (01:01:22): For the better part of, well, all the part of that I have, like you, watched what has happened in this nation and early on how they treated the veterans. And then their own issues, their issues of guilt, their issues of anger, all of the issues that the whole generation had, not just the veterans. But when the nation saw us come together as veterans, they started to look at us differently and begin to feel that, "We should not have taken this out on the soldiers. We should have separated our views." And then there is the guilt about... And I have had many, many people, a lot of women, coming up to me and saying, "I was a war protestor and I am so sorry. I am not sorry I protested the war, but I am sorry that it hurt you, that it hurt the soldiers." And so that healing and being able to articulate your feelings about that I think is healing. And I think the veterans community, individual veterans who come together now, we are healing each other. We help to heal each other. But I do not think we have felt a lot of healing coming from our nation. It has come from each other. Veterans hug each other, they bond with one another. We understand each other. And we go to the memorials and there is a ton of healing that is done there. And hopefully these memorials and the fact that we have come together has prevented thousands of suicides from happening. Because there were thousands before those memorials were dedicated. And they are still happening. You and I both know that. SM (01:03:08): Yes, yes. DE (01:03:10): But when I am around the country and because of my activism here in Helena and... I helped to draft a resolution to present to the City Commission here. And the name of the resolution was Support the Troops and End the Military Occupation in Iraq. I cannot tell you how many people came out of the woodwork and how they lined up at the City Commission. And one woman told me I was sick. She told me I was sick for not supporting the war in Iraq. And yet I had just testified about we need to support our troops and I identified how you support veterans and legislation and mandatory funding and what the needs are for the soldiers and it takes letters to congressmen to provide the financial backing to help these soldiers. It is not just supporting the soldiers, it is going to take money, it takes effort. We have to help the VA here and we are not. Time after time Congress is voting against benefits for veterans. So, I went into all of that, but all she could see was that I wanted to end the war in Iraq. That is all she could see and she called me sick. And then all these men got up, mostly men, but this one woman, they got up and defied everything I said and said, "If we do not fight those terrorists over there, they are going to be here." And I took a lot of flak and I was accused of this, and I was accused of that. And some of these are members of the Baby Boom generation. So, there is still a lot of, I think, anger left over about Vietnam and people wanting to finish that war and not wanting to believe we lost that war so they cannot stand the fact that we might lose another one. And there is this pride thing, "We lost the war in Vietnam. We cannot lose this one." And so of course, I am miles apart in thinking with that. We are in Iraq now. We have to solve these problems, but let us have a plan. Let us have some leadership and let us have the truth. SM (01:05:25): Yeah. I remember when I interviewed Gaylord Nelson, the late senator from Wisconsin. It was several years back and I am sitting in his office and he had a tendency at times to go off into environmental issues because that was his number one issue in his life. But he said, "Steve, are you asking me if people go around Washington DC and they are showing that they are not healing on their sleeves?" He says, "It is not possible." But he did say that, "The body politic will never be the same." And he was referring to the Vietnam War and in response to the question of healing. And I think on the other person that had an influence on me was Lewis Puller before he killed himself. And if you recall, I took students down to the Vietnam Memorial two days before the Women's Memorial was dedicated and Lewis met seven of our students at one of the benches not far from where the Women's Memorial is. And when I take students to Washington now, I always make sure they sit at that bench. And when Jan Scruggs came over to the wall and they were sitting at that bench, we took some students down in the spring, Asian American students, and two people were visiting from Vietnam, from North Vietnam, who actually work with I think it is Bobby Mueller, I had them sitting at the same that bench. But what they are really getting at is the healing issue. When we sat with Lewis for two hours, Lewis talked about that and how he had healed. And then if you remember, Bill Clinton had come to the wall that one year. DE (01:07:15): Yes, I sat right behind him. SM (01:07:17): Yes. And I have this question here as well. This is what I asked from Senator Nelson, actually, Senator McCarthy and Senator McGovern, "Do you think it is possible to heal within a generation where differences and positions were so extreme? And then is it important to even try? Should we care? Is it feasible?" And for example, this was written a little while back, "During my many trips to the wall, I have been to several ceremonies with veterans in the audience. They hate or seem to openly hate Bill Clinton. They hate Jane Fonda. They hate all those individuals who protested against the war and never gave veterans a royal welcome home on the return to the mainland. The wall has helped in a significant way, but the hate remains for many. At least this seems apparent from my perspective." Then this is how Senator Nelson responded, he looked at me and he said, "Steve, you cannot heal 70 million people." Should an effort be made to assist in the healing beyond the wall? Your thoughts? And it is because I have been so impressed with the wall and what you have done by the memorials in Washington being non-political and just caring about the vets, I wish they could take these examples and take it into society as a whole. So just your thoughts on just the healing within a generation, is it even possible? DE (01:08:43): Well, I do not know. And I struggled with that during the building of the Vietnam Women's Memorial because I soon realized, oh my gosh, Steve, you know this, but after I started the effort, my God, I had no idea there was still so much anger and hatefulness and mean spiritedness. And I learned about what the word misogyny means, build a hatred towards women. And it was killing me, Steve. I was losing weight. I was grinding my teeth at night. I went to a physician and I was anemic. I was a mess because it was becoming toxic. I was taking in all this stuff. And I am a healer. I am a nurse, I am a mother, and my role in life through compassion and touch and wanting people to heal and this is what I wanted this memorial for. And then here I am, this person who is a nurse and just trying to help people heal, and all of a sudden, I am the bad person. A woman called me and told me that I was no better than whale shit. That is just one example. And finally, I had to overcome this and- I had to overcome and just... I had to overcome this and realize and turn my nursing skills around in saying, "There are people I cannot help. I am not God, I am not omnipotent. I cannot help these people. They have to help themselves. All I can do is get this memorial built and the memorial will be the healer." And then I just decided I am not the healer. I am not the healer. I am not God. I am not... The memorial will do the healing and the education will help with the healing and bringing the veterans together. And I totally had to have sort of like this epiphany that if I was going to survive this, I had to detach myself from all of this anger and realize some people will never be helped. I actually had to have some police surveillance around our homes because I had threats. We had threats; people called in the middle of the night. SM (01:10:53): Oh my, God. DE (01:10:54): And so my husband was worried about me. It was either going to kill me or I was going to rise above it and just say, "Hey, I cannot [inaudible] these are people I will never be able to help." But I want to talk about something, Steve; this is my view of what President Bush and this administration have done in exploiting Vietnam veterans. They have used us and I will tell you why. Because they know that during the Vietnam War and after, that when America did not support the war, they also did not support the veterans, or some did not and it hurt the veterans. So, this President has made it very clear, and so I argue with and debate with have made it clear that you cannot have it both ways. To support the troops, you have to support the war. So, it is all or nothing. You support the troops, you support the war. And that is where a lot of people in the nation are coming from. And that is because of Vietnam. They are afraid that if they do not support the war, it is going to hurt the troops. This country is so guilty for feeling what they did to Vietnam veterans because they took it out on the troops. So now this President is exploiting that and making us all heroes. All Vietnam vets are heroes. Everybody is a hero. And you cannot have it both ways. The former governor of the state Judy Martz... I disagreed with them, spoke up against what she said, and that was Governor Judy Martz said that you have to support this war because we are supporting this group and you cannot have it both ways. And I said, "You can have it both ways." We have a right and we have a duty, and we have a responsibility to oppose a war we believe is wrong. We have a right and a duty to support our... And by supporting... Those who think our troops would want to vote when they are overseas, we are not hurting their morale. That is my [inaudible]. Do not you say, "Is not it only fair to our troops, our soldiers who are serving overseas to think that the Americans back home are asking questions about the war they are serving in and are asking questions about its mission and its role and asking questions about when they get to come home and asking questions about being redeployed and redeployed and redeployed, and is that right for our soldiers to have to be redeployed three, four, five times? Should not other people in America be sharing this burden that maybe we need to grasp or maybe we need to stop going and find other solutions?" But this is not fair how we are treating our troops. The longer they are there, the more they are realizing this. And I think our soldiers have a right to know that Americans back home are asking questions and are really concerned about their needs and what they are doing and questioning the war as well. So yeah, I think this generation... I think the politics of America right now in this war in Iraq is a lot of the thinking is right out of... Because of what happened during Vietnam. SM (01:14:03): It is interesting because I work in a university environment and I have paid a heavy price for doing a lot of programs on Vietnam. By heavy price, I will not even go into detail here, but one of them is I just do not want to hear about Vietnam anymore. DE (01:14:20): Right. SM (01:14:20): On anything. DE (01:14:21): Right. It is denial. They want to put their heads in denial and live in a fantasy world. And it is coming out now in major newspapers and articles, and it was New York Times and CNN last night that President Bush is living in his little fantasy world. Well, when American people do not want to face the horrors and face the fruit, it is easier to live in your little world of denial. Let us not think about it. Let us not talk about it. But that, I think, is what is frightening in this country is that as a whole, America has been willing to follow this administration without asking the hard questions and believing what they see on the news because it is easier. SM (01:15:10): Well, the last part of my interview is just for you to... I am going to list some names of people from that era and just your gut-level reaction, your feelings on them. Just a comment here or there. Are you ready? DE (01:15:25): I am ready. Uh oh, I am in for it. SM (01:15:28): All right. Tom Hayden. DE (01:15:30): Pardon me? SM (01:15:31): Tom Hayden. DE (01:15:34): No comment. SM (01:15:36): Jane Fonda. DE (01:15:37): Okay. I knew that was coming. Okay. I have a visceral reaction to Jane Fonda for a very explicit reason. She was one of the few women that were heard during the Vietnam War and the press, the media, the country, and the world capitalized on Jane Fonda and what she did. So it was almost like Jane Fonda was the spokesperson, or she was what women were doing. She was like, "Be representative, be symbols of the Vietnam War." And I am angry and resentful about that because she is the woman that is being heard. And yet there were more than 10,000 women in Vietnam doing the hard work and the courageous work and the brave work. And they were in there getting their hands dirty, doing the work, and 250,000 women were serving around the world and supporting the armed forces and doing the hard work. And they were not heard from. The press did not interview them. The press did not photograph them. They were not in the newspapers. They were not in magazines. They were not on the six o'clock news. And so we were working behind the scenes and behind the cameras doing the hard work, but it took the Vietnam Women's Memorial in 1993 to show who the women really were in this country and all those women who were working for women's rights and the women who were working for civil rights and so on and so forth and then we have Jane Fonda. So I have no highest esteem for her because what she did was pitiful. And the way she protested; she could have protested in a different way. SM (01:17:27): Lyndon Johnson. DE (01:17:29): Well, I have a visceral reaction to Lyndon Johnson. Steve, I rarely use the word hate. I do not think it is healthy to hate anybody. It hurts the person more than... It is hurtful to you; it is to yourself when you hate. But I have to admit and be candid that I hated that man. I hated him so badly for what had happened under his watch and the thousands of soldiers that I had cared for because remember, I worked in military hospitals in the United States for several years besides Vietnam. I realized that for me, he was the epitome, he was the target, he was the symbol. And when I was at Fort Sam Houston, Texas, and Program Medical Center, working as a nurse in the intensive care unit, the chief nurse came to me, Colonel Cleveland, while I was on duty, and I will share this with you. This will portray for you my distaste for Lyndon Bates Johnson. And the seventh floor of Brook Army Medical Hospital was reserved for LBJ. He had a lot of health problems, and they would bring him in by helicopter. The ward had to be opened; the whole seventh-floor suite. We could not go up there; it was locked. Nobody had ever seen it. We would only heard about the seventh floor; just for LBJ. Colonel Cleveland came to me while I was on duty and said to me, "Captain Carlson, here are the keys. I want you to take the elevator." The elevator was locked. You had to have a key to get in the elevator to go up there, "And open up the seventh floor and prepare it." And I knew what that meant. Before I could even think about any career in the military or disobeying an order or saluting and saying, "Yes, ma'am," I looked at her and said, "Colonel Cleveland, I refuse to take care of that man." She looked at me, and of course, if I ever thought I was going to have a career in the military, it went out the window. But at that point, I spoke my conviction and I said what I thought, and I was not going to care for him. She looked at me and said, "Captain, it is not Mr. Johnson coming in. It is Mamie Eisenhower. She is coming in by chopper. She is having some kind of an allergic reaction to something." And I said, "Yes, ma'am. I will go right up there." So I went up and opened up the seventh-floor suite and I got a chill because this was the room that LBJ had been in many, many times. You could see it was set up for a former president because it was all telephones everywhere and everything was nice and perfect and wonderful and huge. And I got a chill because when I was up there, this was where he had been, and I was extremely uncomfortable. But I went into my professional... I went into nurse mode, my professional mode, I got the respirator set up, and the breathing apparatus that I had used and everything was ready. So when Mamie Eisenhower came in, I was there to admit her. And then I was her private duty nurse for about three weeks. But I am just sharing this with you to let you know how strongly I felt about him, that I had so much disrespect, so much anger, and that I could look at the good things he did too. But for me, sometimes you wrap everything up in one person. For a lot of vets, it is Jane Fonda, they wrap it all up in her and that is where she is the lightning rod; same with LBJ. SM (01:21:28): Wow. How about John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy? DE (01:21:32): JFK? Are you talking about- SM (01:21:35): Yeah. JFK and Bobby Kennedy. DE (01:21:39): Oh, my distrust. I was feeling okay. With JFK, there was a lot of confusion because later I learned that he is the one that got us into Vietnam and he could have kept us out. And then also, I later learned about his escapades with him. I mean, he had hundreds of women coming and going. That is a fact. And then I felt the hypocrisy with Bill Clinton. We had JFK, and then the government does this to Bill Clinton. So, there is this hypocrisy that is just so blatant among Americans and politics that... Who cares [inaudible] Bill Clinton that I did not... But I guess when I was younger, it was ask not what you can do for you... I mean, he was inspirational. He had charisma. I looked up to him. I mean, I was in high school. I remember exact... As most of us do, I remember exactly where I was. I was in speech class and I was in the middle of giving a speech. SM (01:22:41): Oh, wow. DE (01:22:41): Came over the intercom and that JFK had been killed. And of course, the horror of that. I guess I was not a lot like... I guess I was kind of different. But the girls started crying and they got... But I was crying. I [inaudible 01:23:00] sobbing and I was just, "Oh my, God." But it was also... I do not know. I did not enough about history. I had not read enough about Joe Kennedy and that Kennedy, that Camelot family, was not what they were portrayed [inaudible]. So I was disillusioned. I was disillusioned by them. SM (01:23:27): How about Dr. Benjamin Spock? DE (01:23:32): I do not know. I was raised with five siblings and was taught... I do not know. Dr. Benjamin Spark influenced, yes, generations of babies and mothering and babies. But I did not read him. I was sort of out of text with that. I was interested in other things. I did not read Dr. Spock on how to raise my children. SM (01:23:57): He was involved in the anti-war movement too. He was a protestor. How about the Black Panthers? Huey Newton, H. Rap Brown, Eldridge Cleaver, that group. DE (01:24:10): Well, for somebody like me, they were pretty scary people. I am not giving you very... I do not know... In-depth answers here. SM (01:24:24): But still it is just- DE (01:24:26): What I am thinking about at the time, not now. Is that what you want? How I felt? SM (01:24:30): Yes. DE (01:24:32): It was just another one of those extraordinary, out-of-the-ordinary things that were happening at the time in my generation where... I mean, all of a sudden I went from this little girl wearing skirts and little corduroy dresses and tights to school and having to dress up. We were not allowed to wear pants in high school to all of a sudden graduating from high school and now girls are going without bras, and they are wearing miniskirts and white boots. (01:25:04): I mean, things are so bizarre. And the teenage [inaudible], the hairdos and makeup or no makeup. Everything was so out of whack and so weird and so strange. And so it was like, "Well, this is just normal for my generation to be abnormal." So then it was the Black Panthers. I would see them on television, and it was just very bizarre to me. But I think I just rolled with the punches. SM (01:25:33): How about... Well, I guess here is another. The Berrigan Brothers, Daniel and Philip Berrigan. DE (01:25:40): See, maybe I am out of touch. I do not even know who they are. SM (01:25:40): Okay, how about Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin? DE (01:25:50): Well, I do not know. I do not if I had any real thoughts about them. I cannot remember. SM (01:25:55): Timothy Leary? DE (01:25:57): Uh-uh. Who is he? SM (01:25:58): He was- DE (01:25:59): It is tough. SM (01:26:00): He is psychedelic. He was the man... DE (01:26:00): Yeah. I have to tell you, Steve, anything that was psychedelic or the crazy music, Black Panthers, all of that stuff, I could not relate to it, so I did not. I do not think I thought too much about it. I just kind of knew it was out there. SM (01:26:20): All right. DE (01:26:21): Remember, I was this curious [inaudible]. I mean, during this period of time, it is like my husband said, I did not go to movies. I was going to school full-time. I had two full-time... Not full-time. I had two part-time jobs. I was working at a nursing home and I was working at a hospital. When I was not studying or working at the hospital where I was training, I had jobs. And then I would go home to the farm and if the kids needed me and I would help with the farm. I would go home and help with farm work. I would go home and help with harvesting when I could. And so my life was very focused on jobs and college and the farm. I would go home and help my mother fill the freezer with meat and vegetables from the garden. I mean, these were the practical things that farm kids had to do. And it was like, could I be listening to music or going to movies or caring about the Black Panthers or psychedelic shit? I was so focused on the reality of life, my life at the time, just to get through college and to help my family on the farm. And then when I went into the military, I have to tell you, I was working so hard, the long shift, that I was not doing what you might say normal kids my age normally would do. Girls my age... I did not date believe it or not. I was not dating. And so, I think I was pretty isolated in my own little world of work and college and the necessities of life, the surviving life that I did not pay much attention to the music side or the Rolling Stone or a lot of that stuff that my husband, even though he was in medical school... I mean, he went to all these movies, and then later after we were married, he would talk about these movies, but I had never heard of these movies. Hey, you have never heard of that movie? [inaudible] music? SM (01:28:26): How about... Well, obviously you knew about Robert McNamara, your thoughts on him? DE (01:28:28): Oh, my thoughts on him are the same as LBJ. I disliked him. I did not trust him at all from the beginning. I did not like him. I did not trust him. I guess I was paying more attention to politics, Steve, [inaudible] to other stuff and the generational stuff. But McNamara was, for me, the epitome of sleazy. He reminds me a little bit of Rumsfeld. Now, the arrogance, the I am right, the... It is just the arrogance, the one-sidedness. And how I knew at the time, or I think I knew, but I knew later how there were... McNamara and LBJ had all kinds of bright people coming to them and telling them, consulting with them the truth about not getting involved in the war in Vietnam and what would happen if they did, and trying to enlighten them about history. But he was so self-righteous and arrogant and like Rumsfeld just self-righteous and arrogant. It is their way and no other way. So that is how I felt. SM (01:29:50): And two other people I know you really loved, and that is Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. DE (01:29:56): Oh my God. They were, for me... I think that is when I really started to become internally depressed because I think I have... I know I have because it has helped me throughout my life. I seem to have... Maybe it is nursing skills and being able to observe personalities. I distrusted him from the beginning. And of course, Agnew and Nixon, for good reason, were non-trustworthy. But I think when Watergate happened, I really shut down. It was during that time that I quit watching television. When I got married, I told my husband that we would not have TV in our house. I could not bear anything on television. It just conjured up this extreme emotion in me to the point where it was frightening in that our country is... I was frightened for our country and what these men... I used to call them their wargasm. Men in their testosterone and men in their orgasm and the power that they had and what they could do to our nation. And I still have that feeling today. And I sensed it with Bush from the beginning after 9/11. I saw it in Bush in this warmongering, this wargastic kind of testosterone, this sense of power and control. And for some people, it absolutely goes to their head where they become so self-righteous and so arrogant that it is an aphrodisiac, Steve. It literally becomes an aphrodisiac for some men. I think that is what it was, certainly for Nixon and Bush, whereas at least LBJ, the one thing I can say about him is he did not run again. He did not run again. I think he did feel some honest sadness and some remorse, but I never felt that with McNamara. I never felt that he had authentic remorse. I felt it was disingenuous. Watching the fog of war made me sick. He still came off arrogant and disingenuous. These are the frightening men. These are the men that frightened... That have led countries into their downfalls. SM (01:32:43): Diane, I got only a couple more questions then we will be done. I am just going to switch my tape. All right. I am back. Just a few more names. Muhammad Ali? DE (01:58:02): I will pass on that one. SM (01:58:04): Martin Luther King, Jr.? DE (01:58:06): Oh, well. He is a hero. He is a true hero and an absolute hero. He made a difference in my life in that I actually had someone that I could look up to and believe in and was so proud of. I do have hope for America because there are so many good people in this country. I meet them all the time, like you do when you are out and about. It is just my concern is how come these wonderful, good people who have integrity, why do not they become president? Why do not they become Secretary of Defense? Why do the people who get into power are the ones who are not the leaders and have the vision to make our country what it is based on and its principles and its true values, not their personal values. I do not know what our values anymore are when President Bush talks about values. Yeah. Well, his values are not my values, so whose values, are they? (01:59:22): But Martin Luther King was brilliant and had those qualities where he could lead people together in song and in speech and with the kind of values and with the kind of leadership that gives people hope. It came from love rather than a need for control and power. They say... What is the saying when love overcomes the need for power... I forget exactly what it is, but he provided for this nation, I think, something that was so necessary and so powerful. And then, whew, he has gone. And then who replaces somebody like him? Who replaces Gandhi? SM (02:00:23): Right. The other power figure here is Malcolm X. Any thoughts on him or? DE (02:00:31): Oh, I will pass on that one. SM (02:00:32): Okay. Some of the other political figures from that era, President Ford. Gerald Ford. DE (02:00:39): Well, President Ford granted amnesty to those who went to Canada, right? SM (02:00:49): Yes. DE (02:00:50): Well, there were a lot of Vietnam veterans who were angry about that. I had mixed feelings, but yet I was not angry at him for doing that. I was glad those men were able to come back to the United States. Many of them did not. Again, I think it was my sense of compassion and forgiveness, and that these were young men who absolutely did not believe that they needed to go to Vietnam. To go to Canada and leave their families, bold acts of courage. Some could say it was cowardice. Maybe it was both. But I am not the judge. The war was wrong. We were lied to. We were sent for the wrong reasons. And I was okay with them being granted amnesty. I admit that. I do not apologize for that. We were a generation that was used and abused and exploited, and there were so many men... That is another thing. What about all the men of my generation who went to prison and the men who were in the, we called it the Long Binh Jail, it was LBJ Jail. You know about that? SM (02:02:11): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. DE (02:02:11): [inaudible]. SM (02:02:13): Yes. DE (02:02:14): While I was in Vietnam, I knew of a lot of men who were going to that jail. Again, I felt the unfairness, and the war is just so horrific in what it does to people. So I think coming from a nursing standpoint, coming from a compassionate, forgiving standpoint, I was sad. I have always had this overwhelming sadness for our generation, for those who went to jail, for those who went to Canada, for those who lost their innocence and lost their family ties where they could not speak to their fathers. Their fathers just literally disowned them. This is what our government did to us. And for what? For what reason? Outside of their aphrodisiac needs for war and power and control. The fact that they could have gotten us out of Vietnam, Steve, because remember, I was there in (19)68, and that is when, 'Oh, we are going to wind the war down. We are going to [inaudible] troops home." While I am there, I know more troops are coming, more are coming and more are dying. We lost more... The majority of names on the wall in Washington DC are from (19)68 and (19)69. So, you can see why I feel so strongly the way I do. I have to say one more thing because I know we want to end this, but it is one thing when your country lies to you. It is another thing when they want you to lie for them because when I was in Pleiku at the 71st Evacuation Hospital, we were just kilometers away from the Cambodian border. We were getting all these wounded from Cambodia. This was the time that the administration was telling America we were not in Cambodia, but we were in Cambodia. And I knew it. We were getting all these patients. I was told not to put anything in the records, that patient's records, that he was in Cambodia. I was to lie. I was supposed to lie for the government. I think that is when my political conscience was galvanized, at that. SM (02:04:21): Wow. DE (02:04:21): So if you talk about galvanizing moments, when I was told to lie on a patient's record that he was not wounded in Cambodia because the nation was saying we were not there, for me, that was the straw that broke... That did it. I think from that point on, it was like, "You can lie to me, but you cannot force me to lie back." I think that is what really propelled me to build the memorial and want to tell the truth and... Well, I know it is. SM (02:04:54): Wow. Actually, there is only four more questions here. Very brief. I just list all these politicians, put them in a nutshell: George McGovern, Hubert Humphrey, George Wallace, Barry Goldwater, and certainly Dwight Eisenhower. They were all politicians that were around when the boomers were there, when they were young. DE (02:05:19): Yeah. But how am I going to answer to all of them? They are also different. Dwight Eisenhower, my God, he is the one that warned us about the military industrial complex. It was prophetic. We are right now in the military industrial complex at its height in what he prophesied in that it would be a train going down a track so powerful, there would be no stopping it. And look what is happening. It is a corporation. So, how can we put them in the same... I cannot... like with George Wallace and George McGovern. McGovern is still out there speaking against the war. In fact, he was supposed to be a speaker here because his daughter lives in Montana, out there in Hamilton. I do not know how to... What would you say about putting them all [inaudible]? SM (02:06:08): Well, I would not put them all together. I would say just a few comments about each of them. Certainly, McGovern, last night I watched on television on what is going on with politics today and the elections coming up next week. They are still talking about the negative influence that George McGovern and that generation had on the political process. And then they interviewed him. It was just like his name keeps coming up over and over again in terms of the decline of the Democratic Party. We have had him on our campus, too. Certainly, you could have comments on each of them. And you have already done it on Eisenhower. What are your thoughts on George McGovern and the 1972 election? DE (02:06:53): Well, I feel that there is a faction in this country that is very good. They are experts at denigrating people who tell the truth and who have integrity and who defy them. Their way of denigrating them and diminishing them is to distort who they really are and what they really believe in. I think George McGovern is one of those. SM (02:07:30): Mm-hmm. Of course, Hubert Humphrey, we all know that he ran with Lyndon Johnson. If he had separated himself from Lyndon Johnson early on, he may have been president. There is a lot of thoughts... DE (02:07:41): Well, I come from Humphrey country. He was our neighbor. His daughter worked with my mother. I met Humphrey on many, many occasions, just lived across the marsh from our farm. He was in Waverly, Minnesota. I grew up on a farm south of Buffalo. You could look across the big marsh and see the Waverly Tower. That, of course, was where Humphrey had his lake home. But I grew up believing Humphrey was a great man and he was compassionate. The welfare system in Minnesota became what it was because of Humphrey. My parents definitely supported Humphrey. Yes, if he had separated himself... But back then, the vice president had no power. It is like they were just in the background, unlike Cheney today. But think of how the country might have been different if it had been Humphrey or McGovern. I wish that Humphrey could have made a difference, but I do not feel like he was in a position to make a difference with LBJ as the president. So, I feel there was some failed... Some things that would never come to fruition because he was in the shadow of LBJ. But in his own right, he still did some wonderful things. SM (02:09:10): Even with Barry Goldwater, so much has been written about him recently, that he was the man that really is the leader of the conservative movement. There is actually several books out right now on him. It was ironic that he and Hugh Scott were the two that walked into Nixon's office and told him he had to resign. So, there is pretty powerful... I am going to end with some terms from that era. You do not have to give long responses. It is just a gut-level reaction to them. Woodstock. DE (02:09:42): Okay. I wish I had been there. I missed out. I missed Woodstock. Because of my upbringing on this farm, I guess I felt too timid to think that I would want to be there at the time. But it was unique. It was extraordinary. I wish I had witnessed it myself, but I could not have gone naked or done any of those things. Politically, I am not conservative, but personally, I would have been a witness to it, watching it happen. Steve, I would have been on the sidelines. I would have been watching it happen. SM (02:10:27): Right. How about communes? DE (02:10:28): Communes? SM (02:10:30): The communal movement? DE (02:10:32): Yeah. Yeah. We had a distant relative who got involved. Again, I felt that my peers, the people of my generation, were moving outside the normal course of traditional life and leaving the security of their homes and wanted something different. Because I grew up on a farm and communed with the Earth every single day, I could not quite understand why they felt they needed to bring teepees out. My dad laughed about it because we had communes out around us where some kids brought teepees out and they just put their teepees up on private land, farmers' land, and then the farmers kicked them out. But they wanted to commune with the land. And of course, I grew up commuting with the land. But I guess, again, I think I was pretty non-judgmental of... I was very judgmental of the government. But I was pretty non-judgmental of my generation and my peers thinking that, hey, they have different ideas; they have different thoughts about things and they want to try something different. I guess I did not feel judgmental about that because for me personally, my way of breaking away was to go into the military and find out something about life in the military, I guess, and do something positive with it. So, I figured if they want to live off the land and get rid of all their materialism because my generation, really in the beginning, did not want the materialism that their parents accumulated. I mean, they sold their skis; they sold their car; they sold whatever they had. They did not want any materialistic objects. They just wanted to go out and have free love and live off the land and get away from it all, which was an escape. Of course, that was just their [inaudible]. SM (02:12:36): How about the counterculture? DE (02:12:36): The counterculture I never quite understood because I never felt a part of it. I was not in the drug culture and I was extremely [inaudible 02:12:48] it. I had been invited to some drug parties, Steve, and I did not know because of my naivete, that I was being invited to a drug party. When I got there to this house, I was pretty shocked because I smelled the smells and the doors to the bedrooms were all closed. The person who invited me came out and said, "Hi, Diane." I looked at her and I said, "If you had told me this was a drug party, I would not have come." And I turned around and left. It pretty much scared me. SM (02:13:27): Right. How about Kent State and Jackson State. DE (02:13:33): Horrific, sad, tragic, awful that our own National Guard, our own government... That is another thing. Just briefly. I talked about how my generation spoke out, rioted, protested. Some did it violently, which was not as acceptable, really. But look what our police did and our National Guard did to two young people and their violence and the beatings and the sticks and whipping them with guns and then shooting. Again, I had a visceral gut reaction of this awful sadness that I could not... disbelief and horror, and again, anger that our college students could be unsafe and shot like that in really cold blood. SM (02:14:32): The Chicago Eight? DE (02:14:34): I will pass on that. SM (02:14:36): How about the Democratic Convention of (19)68? DE (02:14:41): I was in Vietnam, Steve. I was pretty busy focusing on saving patients. But I heard about it. Again, I was becoming used to the volatility, that this is normal. This volatility that is going on in the United States, for me, it was now almost the norm. So, what happened at the Democratic National Convention was just crazy. It was just crazy. I have often said that serving in Vietnam was like living in a hallucination. Some of what was going on in America at the time was also like the hallucination. Apocalypse Now is a movie I actually related to. When somebody asked me why, they said, "Well, that movie is so nuts; it is so crazy." And I said, "Yeah, but that is how I felt. That is what I was living at the time." I was living in an hallucination. Things were crazy. Things were out of control. You could not put piece things together because they were so out of control SM (02:15:50): And Watergate? DE (02:15:54): Watergate for me was like a watershed. It was like they got caught. They got caught. There is justice. There is justice! When he was impeached, or when the impeachment process took place, I had this sense of relief, almost. It was a sense of relief. They got caught. Thank goodness. There are people in the country that will work hard to expose the evil. I hate to use that word now because [inaudible]. SM (02:16:31): Now, I have three more terms here and then we will end. Two of them are probably very important to you. Tet. DE (02:16:44): I arrived in Vietnam in late July, the first part of August. I knew about Tet because I was at Fort Lee, Virginia at the time, and I was getting patients in the orthopedic unit. We were filled. There were no extra beds. We were shipping patients and evacing back and forth to Walter Reed. I took care of patients at Fort Lee, Virginia that had been in Tet. That was my first real exposure to what happens to men who have been in war. They have gone through something horrific. I learned a lot on that unit. First time I dropped a bed pan in the middle of the night, it was really frightening for me because I had just dropped a bed pan. It was a little bit noisy, but every single patient was on the floor and some of them were in flashbacks. It was really eye-opening for me. One of the patients told me, "Do not ever do that again. You might find yourself dead," because they just were out of control and crawling around on the floor and looking for their weapons. So for me, Tet was the tragedy of the loss of so many human lives and so many wounded with horrific wounds. But it also showed the determination of the enemy. I do not think I really went to Vietnam wholly naive like so many of the women have said. I think I was really prepared. I prepared myself for the worst. I think Tet helped prepare that inside me because I knew it would come from anywhere and nowhere and at any time. This enemy was determined. These were not [inaudible] were intelligent warriors. SM (02:19:01): How about the Gulf of Tonkin? DE (02:19:04): Well, Steve, for me, the Gulf of Tonkin was one of the sick lies the government got by with. So, if they got by with that one, why would not they get by with the weapons of mass destruction? For me, it was so deja vu, that the level of my anger during Shock and Awe was so high that my daughter told me, "Mom, you have to do something about your anger. It is going to kill you. It is just way over the top." And my response was, I said, "What have we learned? The lies from Gulf of Tonkin..." SM (02:19:41): Go right ahead. DE (02:19:53): It was the ultimate betrayal. It was the ultimate betrayal, that we did not learn that lesson from Vietnam, that the American people could be duped with a lie to get us into... But the American people could be duped to the lie to get us into a war, and Bush got by with it. So, for me, again it was a visceral gut reaction. Another offset betrayal that the government can abuse, abuse of power and convince people of their lives. And of course, I cannot be convinced, so then I am at odds with a lot of people who are convinced. Then I begin to wonder how can people believe this stuff? Why are they so... I do not know. That is enough, Steve. SM (02:20:43): Okay. And then, when did the war end? Was there something that happened in the United States? Some people say that when the war came home to middle America, when bodies came home in caskets in Ohio and the Midwest, middle America finally said, "This war has to end." Others say, "Well, it was what happened to Kent State University. When they can shoot their own children on the homeland, that is the beginning of the end." In your opinion, what was the magic moment that ended this war? DE (02:21:25): Well, for me, because I was a nurse, it never ended. The war did not end until the helicopter landed on top of the embassy and... What did we call it? The Presidential Palace? SM (02:21:42): Mm-hmm. DE (02:21:42): Saigon? SM (02:21:43): Yes. DE (02:21:43): In 1975, right? SM (02:21:46): Yes. DE (02:21:47): And that picture where the people just hanging on to the rudder of the helicopter trying to escape with everybody else, and those last people dying. That was the kind of official moment. My god, we were out of there. That was the moment for me that the war officially ended, but the war never did end. The war has not ended for most Vietnam vets. We are still battling it, fighting it, dying in VA hospitals. But symbolically, I think you are looking for a symbolic ending. For me, there is no symbolic ending. None. Because for me, I watched the soldiers suffering for years following that war, and taking care of them in hospitals. So, there is some symbolic ending. SM (02:22:42): My very last question is, when did the sixties begin? Not necessarily for you personally, but when do you think was the beginning of the sixties? DE (02:22:57): I would say '64. SM (02:23:05): Is that after Kennedy passed away? DE (02:23:09): Well, Kennedy was killed, and then the Gulf of Tonkin was (19)64, was not it? SM (02:23:14): Yes, it was. DE (02:23:14): So, for me, that is when it began. SM (02:23:21): I guess the last, do you have anything else you would like to say or comment on? DE (02:23:26): Yes, one more thing, and that is I want to talk about what the sixties meant for me as far as women in the military opening doors for the next generation women. SM (02:23:41): Diane, could you speak up just a little bit more? DE (02:23:43): Okay. I do not think I have addressed enough about the military women in the sixties, who signed up during that unpopular war, and going to Vietnam and serving all over the world. And how my generation of military women opened the doors for the next generation of military women. And which prior to me, the military women opened doors for us. But we really threw that door open wide in proving that, in Vietnam, that we survived. And that we did have the courage to be in a war zone and work hard and get through it and rise to the highest level of ability and capability and service. Of course now, we have women in Iraq who are carrying weapons and are using them. Whereas in Vietnam, I say we were not issued weapons in Vietnam, but we should have been. And we should have been trained to use them. We were in a combat zone. The only difference was we could be shot at, which we were, but we could not shoot back. Today, women, without being clearly defined that they are in combat roles, they are certainly in combat. We have almost 80 or more of them who have been killed in Iraq. I do not know what kind of advancement we can say that is, that we have opened the doors so women can be killed in combat, but I think what it says is that men and women today are serving side by side pretty much in equal roles. For many of these women, it is their choice. If they have joined the guards, of course, it is all by choice because nobody is drafted. But women have proven themselves and prove themselves every day, but it is just... I have been asked, and I will say this, that I was asked several years ago when the war broke out in the first Desert Storm in the early nineties, how I would feel about daughters coming home in body bags. I said, " I have sons. What is the difference if my daughter or my son comes home in a body bag? I do not want either one of them to come home in a body bag." And certainly, there is really no difference. It is both horrific, it is both tragic, and it is both, it is unthinkable. But I am proud of women in the military today and what they have achieved and what they do. I am very proud of them, as I was proud of my generation. I am just so sad that we have to have a war at all and that they have to be participating in it. But I am very proud of the military women today. SM (02:26:37): When you sit there at the ceremony every year at the Vietnam Memorial, on Veterans Day or Memorial Day, and you are sitting on that stage before Jan goes up and starts the program itself, and you have a chance to look. You are looking over all those veterans and families of veterans and just friends of veterans and just interested observers. What are you thinking? I know you are thinking about the introduction of this person that is going to speak, but what is going through your mind when you sit up there and you are glancing over all these people every year? DE (02:27:14): Well, I often think, Steve, that we are unusual in that there is a sea of love out there, and we come together out of love. There is just this overpowering sense of understanding and love among us. We all have some needs that we come there every year. Some of us maybe like myself, I should be there because I am the chair. But I need both, too, for my own sense of being together with like-minded people whom I love, and I feel a sense of peace with these people. But I also feel this ordinary responsibility that it is so important that we continue to come there to show our honor and memory of those who died during Vietnam. And to show the country that these memories have to be kept alive. I feel a sense of responsibility to be there as a veteran's advocate, but on a personal deeper level, I just feel this sense of, like Jan Scruggs and myself and all those who work so hard with us, to make sure those memorials got there. We did not do it alone. It took thousands, thousands, and thousands of people and dollars and work. We were just the symbols because we were the leaders of the efforts, but we did not do it alone. I just feel this tremendous pride for the people who did make it happen, and relief that it is there because it is so important for a nation to remember those who-who have served and died. And so, I do not know. I never can put it into words, Steve, because it is pretty overwhelming for me. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 3 microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Diane Carlson Evans Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Evans, Diane Carlson ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource United States—Armed Forces—Nurses; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Evans, Diane Carlson--Interviews Description An account of the resource Diane Carlson Evans served as a nurse during the Vietnam War in the United States Army. Before joining the Army as a nurse, Evans graduated from nursing school in Minnesota. She was the major contributor to the creation of the Vietnam Women's Memorial. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-11-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan-7B_01.wav ; McKiernan-7B_02.wav Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 242:51