1 10 250 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f48faf363937b460ff58a641bfc917b.jpg d29da20a559336af4fe4dadd5ff4e262 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c2f6442516cbced88191f47fb61fd983.mp3 596a67f57590ccbbaa5dcefd186632dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1996 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eugene J. McCarthy, 1916-2005 Language English Biographical Text Eugene McCarthy (1916 - 2005), a native of Watkins, Minnesota<span class="sew5qqwksuk5ykc"></span><span class="sew5qqwksuk5ykc"></span> was a politician, academic, author, and poet. He spent twenty-two years in the halls of the United States Congress representing the state of Minnesota; ten years in the House of Representatives and twelve years in the United States Senate (1948-1970). &nbsp;He received a graduate degree from the University of Minnesota and became a professor of Economics before serving in World War II. The nation and the world got to know Senator McCarthy during the 1960s as the war in Vietnam escalated for he was a major opponent against President Johnson's handling of the war. &nbsp;He was the first Democrat to challenge President Lyndon Johnson in the 1968 primaries. The happenings in Vietnam, TET, played a major role in these stunning developments since McCarthy was running on an anti-war platform. Senator McCarthy could not overtake Hubert Humphrey, President Johnson's choice as the Democratic nominee for president. &nbsp;In later years, he ran for president a few more times but did not receive the widespread support he had in 1968 as the first courageous Democrat to challenge a sitting president of his own party. Eugene McCarthy was a very gifted writer and poet throughout his life, publishing more than 20 books. Senator McCarthy passed away in 2005 and was honored at the National Cathedral in Washington, DC where President Clinton gave the eulogy. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 89:31 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; College students; Activism; Generation gap; Technology; Scott Fitzgerald; Vietnam War; Civil War; Hubert Humphrey, Thurgood Marshall; Abbie Hoffman; Jerry Rubin; Ralph Nader.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14275305}}">Baby boom generation; College students; Activism; Generation gap; Technology; Scott Fitzgerald; Vietnam War; Civil War; Hubert Humphrey, Thurgood Marshall; Abbie Hoffman; Jerry Rubin; Ralph Nader.</span> Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; Poets, American; Authors; Presidential candidates—United States; McCarthy, Eugene J., 1916-2005--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eugene McCarthy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCarthy, Eugene J., 1916-2005 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; Poets, American; Authors; Presidential candidates—United States; McCarthy, Eugene J., 1916-2005--Interviews Description An account of the resource Eugene McCarthy (1916 - 2005), a native of Watkins, Minnesota was a politician, poet, academic, presidential candidate and critic of the Vietnam War. McCarthy served in the United States House of Representatives from 1949 to 1959 and the United States Senate from 1959 to 1971. After leaving the Senate, McCarthy spent his time to speaking engagements and writing, publishing more than 20 books. Eugene McCarthy (1916 - 2005), a native of Watkins, Minnesota was a politician, academic, author, and poet. He spent twenty-two years in the halls of the United States Congress representing the state of Minnesota; ten years in the House of Representatives and twelve years in the United States Senate (1948-1970).  He received a graduate degree from the University of Minnesota and became a professor of Economics before serving in World War II. The nation and the world got to know Senator McCarthy during the 1960s as the war in Vietnam escalated for he was a major opponent against President Johnson's handling of the war.  He was the first Democrat to challenge President Lyndon Johnson in the 1968 primaries. The happenings in Vietnam, TET, played a major role in these stunning developments since McCarthy was running on an anti-war platform. Senator McCarthy could not overtake Hubert Humphrey, President Johnson's choice as the Democratic nominee for president.  In later years, he ran for president a few more times but did not receive the widespread support he had in 1968 as the first courageous Democrat to challenge a sitting president of his own party. Eugene McCarthy was a very gifted writer and poet throughout his life, publishing more than 20 books. Senator McCarthy passed away in 2005 and was honored at the National Cathedral in Washington, DC where President Clinton gave the eulogy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.85a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 89:31 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/36d5e939b1fb288788da1dc53beb3499.jpg 7199018b63359b5933762f9bfe95c465 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/881c179ea47786421de2b68ee2136148.mp3 f19560efa24bdf6e294ed676d48f9d30 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1996 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John J. Burns, 1921-2004 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;John J. Burns (1921-2004) was New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6915,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;arial, helvetica, sans-serif&quot;}">John J. Burns (1921-2004) was the New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;War protests; Traditional American household; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope &amp; trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:833,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0}"><span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;War protests; Traditional American household; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope &amp; trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:833,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0}">War protests; Nineteen sixties; Early nineteen seventies; Traditional American household; Drugs; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope &amp; trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Vietnam veterans; Vietnam memorial; Broome County<br /></span></span> <p></p> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:14 Subject LCSH Politicians--United States--New York; Democratic Party (N.Y.); Burns, John J., 1921-2004--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Burns Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: William Palmer Date of interview: 1996 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:22 SM: My first question is, the boomer generation in the (19)60s and early (19)70s is being attacked as one of the reasons for the breakdown of American society. Could you respond to this criticism and comment on the period and its impact on present day America? 00:48 JB: The boomer generation is being blamed? 00:52 SM: A lot of things that I hear, whether it be the Christian coalition or commentary for the Republican Party ̶ A lot of times they go back to events of the 1960s era to blame and then they start blaming the generation that grew up then 01:06 JB: Of course they [the boomers] were then in their teens or maybe 20 years old. Well, I think the (19)60s was an era when we went through very historic and difficult times. We had three assassinations, John Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy. And I think early in the (19)60s there was great hope for our country among the young people that, you know, that generation slightly older than them [boomers]. And as a result of the assassination, I think I lost that hope. Mixed in with that was the feeling that the Vietnam War was not a war that we should be fighting and many, many people of that age group protested the war. I think the hippie movement was sort of a statement of their objections to what was happening in our country and to our country. And many of them have turned out to be conservative people. They grew out of it, in other words, I do not think they are to blame for anything that is wrong with our country. I think the problems in our country are caused by all problems that are covered here caused by economics and by social changes. Economics brings about social changes. For example, many families in the late (19)50s and early (19)60s had one parent at home with the children, young children as well as teenagers. And as time went on, to maintain, to make a living, both parents had to work. Of course a lot of women wanted to work anyway. They wanted to be more than just a housewife. So we end up with families with nobody home. And we also have growing [unintelligible] in regard to marriage. Marriage is not as permanent as it was in my generation. People get married and then they get divorced. Some people never marry, but they have children anyway. And these things have all created many problems, social problems. Also mixed within this same picture was the increase in drug use. Some of the people in that generation did a lot of drugs, particularly marijuana, and they got into stronger drugs. And if you saw pictures of the big gathering out at Woodstock, yeah. A lot of drug use going on there, a lot of smoking and all that. And a lot of experimentation with drugs that went on. I think the advent of drugs into society has taken a big toll as well. I think that many of them [boomers] toyed with it and then went off it and are now serious citizens with families and everything else. But there is some that ruin their lives. 05:31 SM: Bringing up some of these issues that divorce out in California ̶ 50 percent of people getting married get divorced. Yeah, almost 50 percent in our society are getting divorced. Certainly there was drug use during that period, but we see a tremendous rise of drugs now in our high schools and colleges. These are the sons and daughters of boomers. You have made a comment that you did not think that a lot of the problems in society today were based on the boomers. But you raised these issues. 06:02 JB: Right. I do not think they caused it, they lived through it. I do not think the boomers caused a lot of that. I mean, some of them caused drug use. Yeah. But they certainly did not cause the need for, for two parents to work. That was caused by cost of living [unintelligible], right? You may be right to a degree that they have a different attitude than their parents did, I am talking about the boomers now. About marriage, as I said, about family. And they, their generation, you know, brought about a lot of changes in the society and I think there are a lot of good people in the movement. I do not think they are trying to mess things up or anything like that. I think they are trying to live their lives. And they became more open. It was inevitable that there are a lot of people in bad marriages and it made sense that they get out of a bad marriage. While in my generation, they would stay in a bad marriage. And I am not an advocate of divorce. I am not. I can see there are times when divorce is better for everyone concerned. So now you got into, you know, the syndrome of not staying married or not even getting married. And still they have children. And the children pay the price for that. 07:56 SM: Yeah, it is just a general question. Based on everything you have been saying here and the questions I have been asking so far, looking at 1996 we could say that the boomers ̶ which is basically sixty-five million people who were born between 1946 to 1964. That is the category that uses that. That their impact is positive or negative in America. Too early to tell? 08:25 JB: I think it is early to tell. I think that for me, they are only 22 years old now. They are just getting out of college [youngest boomers, born in 1964, were thirty-two years old at the time of this interview]. I think that I do not know how to describe it exactly. But there are a lot of social problems about gangs. We were talking about this generation. We thought we were thinking that it was middle income people. Gangs are really a problem in the blighted areas, in the slums, they are a big social problem for communities. And so to answer your question, I think it is mixed. I think that some in that generation are causing more problems than prior generations and others are responsible people. I would not blame the whole generation, everybody in that generation, for problems that come along. 09:37 SM: We talked about the death of those three men, two of them that you knew quite well ̶ John and Robert Kennedy ̶ and Martin Luther King. I was like eleven, I think, when John Kennedy was killed. And it really affected me. It really did. Actually I was fourteen, excuse me. And then Bobby Kennedy and Dr. King, I was at SUNY Binghamton at the time that happened and was in a two month period of time. 09:47 JB: It was a real blow. 10:07 SM: When you read the literature on the (19)60s and early (19)70s, only 15 percent of the people were really involved in protest or activism of any kind. 85 percent went along with their normal daily activities. As the years progressed, what effects did those three deaths have on not only that 15 percent, but everyone ̶ whether it be the conscious or the subconscious? I know you were close to John and Robert Kennedy, and their deaths affected you personally. But what about the boomers of my era, like your children? What effect did these assassinations have on them as they grew older, raised families and tried to get involved in things? 10:52 JB: A lot of people lost hope for the future. It was still America, but they were worried about America being a place where leaders can be assassinated. They were worried about the fact that people that stand for something can be killed off. And then there was really no one that took their place in the eyes of that generation. They became discouraged, and I think a lot of them lost interest in voting and participating in government. While under John Kennedy, for example, he started the Peace Corps. He brought a lot of young people into government, he got people enthusiastic about the future of our country. And then when he was shot, and then followed by Bobby, it was like, people just lost hope. It took a long time to try to turn people around. It will never come around to the way it was; the enthusiasm, the thrill of being in one of those campaigns and that people still felt it is a great country and they wanted to do things to help make it better. 12:13 SM: Around the same time, trust in leadership [unintelligible]. 12:21 JB: The Nixon Watergate stuff, people lost trust in their leaders and their government. The good guys were killed off and the bad guys were in charge. I think that is probably one of the reasons that some of them [boomers] really started having an attitude. They did not give a damn. They got into things they should not have. 12:50 SM: This is kind of a side note question, but if Bobby had lived, do you think he would have won it? 12:57 JB: I think he would have, yeah. I was involved in it. I was running the New York State campaign and we started when he first announced he was running against LBJ [Lyndon B. Johnson] ̶ LBJ was still campaigning at that point. It was around St. Patty's Day, in March. We started polling in New York State and it was all against him within the Democratic Party. We had been polling just Democrats for the primary. But as time went on, it began changing, changing, changing. LBJ dropped out and McCarthy was in the picture. But Bobby was emerging as a victor in New York. He had won in California before he was killed. It was a similar situation there. He had the emphasis, you know, going for him. We will never know really, but I think he could have pulled it off and I think he would have won. 13:57 SM: I think one of the greatest speeches I ever heard was an impromptu one Bobby gave in Indianapolis after Martin Luther King was killed. 14:04 JB: Oh, yeah, I remember that very well. 14:07 SM: And of course you see it when you go to Washington. What really amazes me, and I have been reading a lot of history, is that the Bobby Kennedy we saw on those committees early on, in the (19)50s, is not the same Bobby Kennedy we saw in (19)68. 14:22 JB: Absolutely. He did a [unintelligible] to become much more compassionate, more liberal minded than he was in those days. And what he said in Indianapolis to a black audience which he gathered in a black neighborhood. "Sorry, my brother was killed by a white man." It was an important thing to say. 14:58 SM: He knew that it was a dangerous area. Skellington right? Yeah. 15:04 JB: So I think that people who got into drugs experimentally, thinking it is just a temporary thing in their lives. You know, some of them did not realize how these drugs can hook them, how they can become addicted. And so I think we had more addiction problems than we did later on. The statistics show there is less kids in high school trying drugs than there used to be. But we still have a lot of drug activity here. And a lot more arrests recently that are bigger. We had a big arrest yesterday. We had another big trial a month ago, which showed that this one drug dealer made millions of dollars right here in Binghamton and Broome County. Somebody's using the drugs. It was not just the one hundred or two hundred people they complain about who moved up from New York City. Got to be thousands of people using drugs here. And destroying lives right in the middle class, in the upper classes. They caught a guy selling drugs in front of Vestal High School not too long ago. Right in front of the school. This is really bad. Terrible. So, It is an ongoing problem for the children of the boomers and the boomers participated, many of them in the drug scene, but many of them survived and straightened out their lives pretty well. 16:45 SM: So my next question is, what can today's generation of youth learn from the boomers? What can the boomers teach today's college students? This question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s is a period of activism, drugs and single minded issues. So many of the same issues remain. There are new ones and the lessons of the past are either not taught in schools or never discussed between parents and today's generation. Please give your thoughts on the issues in boomer's lives and how they can have an impact on students' lives today. 17:20 JB: I think they could do a lot to help curtail drug use. They can tell their experience, they could tell them first hand and even if not themselves than somebody they knew, who had a real problem and that by flirting with drugs, they were only going to get into trouble. And I think they could do more of that and talk to their children. I know when I was the Democratic State Chairman, I was out of town a lot. And I regret it, but I was not around my kids as much as I should have been. I was around them all weekend every weekend. You know, I did not know what they were doing or where they were going. We had a big family, hard to keep track of everybody. So I think they owe it to their kids to make sure that they understand the dire consequences of drug use and not to experiment with them just for a lark. Alcohol use is also bad. It is an addictive chemical just like other drugs. They could set examples by not drinking in front of them or using pot or whatever they might like to use and train them along that way. I think the example is more effective. Sometimes parents say do not do what I do, do what I say. Parents say, do not do this and do not do that and then they do it themselves. You know, like, a kid comes home from using drugs and a drunken father balls them out. It does not really have a lot of impact, you know what I mean? But I think that they can set an example for their kids. This is one thing they can do for them that will be very useful. I know. I never drank, I did years ago before we were married. And kids now tell me that it meant a lot to them that I did not drink. Neither my wife nor I drank. 19:46 SM: You have kids that are boomers who have their own kids. They may also be getting kids ready to go to college or something down the road. What can you say about communicating and not being around your kids, but then spending quality time on weekends? What are your children teaching their kids, and what are they telling them about the experiences that they went through when they were young? What are boomers sharing with today's young people about Bobby Kennedy, Dr. King, John Kennedy, the civil rights movement, protests against Vietnam, the women's movement, the environmental movement? Do you think there is a sharing going on between boomers and their kids? 20:40 JB: I do not know. That is a good question. I think they should. They accomplished a lot. I think they are responsible for the end of the Vietnam War. And I think that work they have done on the environment has helped a lot. Legislators and chief executives do not propose or pass laws that are not popular. By demonstrating the need for environmental laws that a lot of people support, those laws came into being. I think that the women's movement is another example. One ̶ I think that they made a lot of progress. Certainly the civil rights movement has made a lot of progress. It still has a long way to go. If you go back to when I was a kid, I did not even think about it, you know? We just regarded black kids in school as somebody you would say hello to, but never see outside of school. They were never in fraternities. In those days we had fraternities in Binghamton Central High School. Some would not take Catholics, some took Catholics but would not take Jews, and there was one just for Jews. The black kids were like part of the furniture, I mean, they were not anything in the social structure of the student body. As I changed a lot now, much better. But from those days, you know, back in the (19)30s, when I was growing up, until now there has been a big change. There is still a lot of racial hatred and racial problems in society. These kids can be inspired to do something about it by the boomers. The boomers are the ones that demonstrated ̶ did you say that only like 15 percent demonstrated, I did not realize it was that low a figure. Obviously, there were some that did not agree with what the demonstrators were doing. 23:05 SM: The "hard hats" in New York. 23:08 JB: No, I mean, among the boomers themselves, those that did not see eye-to-eye with the protesters. 23:12 SM: The premise is out there, it is very easy now to bash the boomers and blame everything on them. And I am trying to find out if, you know, not based on my feelings, but on other people's feelings, if there is some validity to that charge, or if it is ridiculous. For example, people that were involved in the civil rights movement and people that were involved in the protests against the Vietnam War in the (19)60s ̶ especially in the civil rights movement ̶ are still supportive of affirmative action at universities. And they are being attacked for taking over universities. The people that are involved in these causes had a passion and that passion continues. A lot of young people today will look at boomers and say that was something from the past. But the issues are still the same. I am concerned that that is what is happening today. When I go down to the Vietnam Memorial, and I keep hearing over and over again, the charge against Bill Clinton that he protested against the Vietnam War in Russia when he was over there. And people cannot forgive him for that. So it is like, what is this? Everything seems to come back to the boomers in trouble. 24:37 JB: There were people who went to Vietnam, you know, and served over there, and were killed there; and some may still be there. Many of them have always been disappointed that they were not regarded as the heroes that the guys from World War II were. Yet they only did what they were supposed to do. They were drafted, most of them. They went where they were told to go, they did what they were supposed to do. But they were not regarded as heroes like the veterans of World War II. 25:17 SM: I can remember when I was a SUNY student, and my dad was getting gas at one of the gas stations near Broome Tech. And this guy drove up in a car that had an American flag on the side. Well, at that period of time, people that were putting a flag on the car, [were making a statement] I am a better American than you are. 25:34 JB: The right wingers. 25:34 SM: Yes. I just about flipped out, but I did not do anything. I remained calm. But I said “No.” Nowadays, it is okay. How different society is. 25:50 JB: Republicans regarded themselves as more patriotic than the Democrats. The Democrats were more associated with the hippies, the women's movement, the anti-war movement, all that. Conservative people want to stop time, to just freeze time. It does not happen, everything changes. You can never go back to the way it was. 26:26 SM: If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, describe the qualities you most admired in them? Just a couple of things. 26:38 JB: Well, I admired many in the boomer generation for what they believe. They put aside traditions that were in their way. [garbled] I was the State Democratic Chairman when the legislature had the eighteen year old vote coming up. I worked hard, with a lot of others, to get that passed through the legislature. So we have an eighteen year old vote. We got the eighteen year old vote, but not enough of them voted. 27:35 SM: What year was that? 1968? 27:38 JB: Late (19)60s, right? Certainly ever since then, it has been that way. There are a lot of kids that turn eighteen, some are still in high school. They were just coming out, they first vote, they were just graduating that year. 28:02 SM: The young people wanted that vote. The slogan of the boomers was: "We are old enough to go to war, we should be old enough to vote." And they got the vote. I think (19)68 was the first year ̶ Humphry against Nixon. Now, not only do not they vote, but their kids do not vote. 28:30 JB: I think the kids lost hope at right around the same time. The assassinations, and then Nixon came along and had Watergate, people lost faith in government. And they still have lost faith in government. A lot of people do not trust government, even in the right wing. You got these nuts that form militias around the places. They do not trust the government. I think that is an extreme case. But there are people that do not like the government, they do not trust the government. And they do not bother voting. They do not think voting means anything. They do not think it is going to change their life, which is too bad. They think it is not going to change their life any, which is too bad. It can definitely change their life. 29:26 SM: That old slogan around the world that people have died to vote. Here they have it, and are not doing it. 29:35 JB: Look what happened in South Africa a couple of years ago. The first vote that these black people had, they stood in line seven, eight hours in the hot sun to cast their vote. And here, you do not have to do that. You do not even bother voting. It is too bad. 29:56 SM: This question might be repetitive, but have you changed your opinion on the youth of the (19)60s over the last twenty five years, the opinion that you had in politics, as mayor, and then today? 30:07 JB: Change my opinion of them? Well, they have grown and they have matured and they are not the same. So it is hard to say. I have read where some of the outstanding radicals of the (19)60s became, you know, sort of middle ground or conservative adults. Now, I think that has happened to a lot of them. I did not really change my mind about them. It ̶ I just watched them change. 30:53 SM: My generation, especially in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, believed that we are the most unique generation in American history. we are going to change the world, we are going to make things better. 31:05 JB: Right. 31:06 SM: Like it has never been the Age of Aquarius. Listen to the music of that era. Anyway, so what is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? 32:22 JB: Oh, well, I guess the lasting legacy is that they survived a tumultuous time in our history. They participated in the civil rights movement, the women's movement, and the anti-war movement. Democracy still works. I guess that is about all I can think of. They still have time to go, to do more for their country before they get to the senior citizens. 33:10 SM: What role, if any, does activism in the boomer generation penetrate into the lives of their children, Generation X? 33:22 JB: You mean in terms of there being people that volunteer and do things like that? 33:27 SM: The whole activist mentality, being change agents for society. 33:37 JB: To what degree does it affect their next generation? Well, there is a drop off, but I think it does affect it. People tend to carry on the tradition of their parents many times, especially when it comes to things of importance like that; especially toward the things that are significant. My kids are all Liberal Democrats. They think it is the only logical way to be. I think I will pass that on to their kids. I think others will do the same thing as Republicans. I know there are some that drop off. I know I have seen kids who are Republicans and their fathers are Democrats, and vice versa. But they are in the minority. You would think that kids would know from day one. In my generation, I was very much aware of what Roosevelt did for our country in terms of all the New Deal legislation and New Deal reforms and the job creating things that he did. That brought me closer to the Democratic Party than just the fact that my parents were Democrats. But my children do not know, and certainly my grandchildren will not know where social security came from. They will not be that much attached to the Democratic Party as I was because of social security or unemployment insurance, and so many other things. I think there is a certain drop off of fidelity to a party as each generation comes along and is more and more independent in their thinking. 34:37 SM: That is good! I want to ask this question again because I think we may have missed it. Do you think it is possible to heal within the generation where differences in positions taken were so extreme? Is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Should we care? 36:09 JB: I think we should try to continue in the healing process. I think, as you mentioned earlier, that the Vietnam Memorial in Washington and other activities can be of help to start the healing process for Vietnam veterans. They feel better about the fact that the country regards them highly, and they were doing what they did for patriotic reasons. Other than the Vietnam Veterans, I think that there should be healing. Some of us naturally know the old saying "time heals all wounds." People that were mad at people who were against the war and people that were mad at people who supported the war have now lived and worked together for a couple of decades. I think they see that the other side is not all that bad, that they are good people. They may still disagree, but they come together, they live in a community together, and they live in our country together. I think the healing process takes place between individuals. 37:16 SM: To take off on that, when we met with Senator Muskie he said that the Civil War generation went to their graves filled with hatred for the South, or the North despite the efforts of these reunions in Gettysburg and that Reconstruction was not a good era. I personally go to the Vietnam Memorial celebrations and Veterans Day in Washington these last couple of years, and I have seen the things that they are wearing on their jackets. This is supposed to be a non-political entity. The Wall [the Vietnam War Memorial] was built to be a non-political entity in honor of those who served and died for their country. Yet you see all these political statements being worn on jackets and jerseys of Jane Fonda Bitch, and comments about Bill Clinton. They had Peter Arnett there this past year. 38:33 JB: He went behind the lines in Iraq, right? 38:37 SM: Right. I heard some Vietnam veterans saying "Why did I come to hear this guy because he wrote bad, terrible things about us?" They are against the reporters. I am wondering how much healing is really taking place. My main concern is, is the boomer generation really going to heal? Or are they going to go to their graves with bitterness? 39:03 JB: I think some individuals are going to go to their graves with bitterness, but I think overall there will be more healing than not. I do not know if you know Tim Grippen, he is our county executive. He had part of his face blown away in Vietnam. It took a long time for plastic surgeons and others to repair his face. His face is, you can tell what happened. He has been very active with the Vietnam Veterans. Here is a guy that came back and went to graduate school at Syracuse University studying public administration. Now he is the county executive, and he has no bad feelings; and there a lot of them. He is in touch with all the Vietnam veterans in Broome County. He is a role model for them. There are people out there like that, that do not say Jane Fonda Bitch. He is a Democrat and a supporter of Bill Clinton. It might be a good idea if you could talk to him some time. 40:07 SM: What is his name? 40:17 JB: Tim Grippen-- G R I P P E N. He is the County Executive of Broome County. [garbled] I think that some diehards will never change. But there are those who, as time goes on, they will see someone that they like who sees things differently. They will soften up a bit. 40:42 SM: I want to say that, for example, during my many trips to the Wall, I attended several ceremonies with veterans in the audience. They hate Bill Clinton, they hate Jane Fonda, and they hate those who protested the war and never gave veterans the royal welcome on their return to the mainland. The Wall has helped [garbled], but the hate remains for those on the other side. [garbled] 41:19 JB: In fact, there is a replica of that Wall they bring around to different communities. It is smaller in size. They had one here for a week. All kinds of people went down and saw it. And I felt that there was a feeling like there is a lot of people like me who were against the war, but who still feel that those guys did a job for us and they were doing it for their country. We cannot blame them for something that they had nothing to do with. They are not responsible for it, and I think they should be honored. There are a lot of people that feel that way. I do not think that there is going to be any healing. I think among some people, that is true, but I do not think it is a majority. 41:50 SM: That is right. Do you think we will ever have trust for elected leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate? 42:19 JB: Well, I do not know. I think that is one of the big problems Bill Clinton is having right now. Whitewater and all the related investigations are going on about his character and his wife's character. Even if he wins the election, which I think he will, People may not regard him as they would George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. Although in his day, Lincoln was not as popular as he is now; he had a lot of detractors. Now we look at him like a saint. I am a follower of Abraham Lincoln [garbled] but there were people then that did not think he was a saint. Thomas Jefferson had a lot of people that hated his guts. I do not know about Washington. He was a war hero, so maybe he enjoyed a better reputation with the public of his day. You know, when Harry Truman left office, he was quite unpopular. He had fired MacArthur who was a big war hero. [garbled] Over a period of time, while he was still living, but as former president, he gained back his popularity by far. He was very popular towards the end of his time. So, you never know about that. 44:02 SM: How did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life and attitudes toward that and future generations? 44:08 JB: I think protesters against the war helped those of us who were Democratic officials come around to seeing their point of view. We started out like, he is the elected president and he wants us in there and we are going to support our president. Finally, after seeing how sincere and how widespread their [the protesters] feelings were, we could understand their point of view. I supported it. 44:52 SM: What did you think at the time when that was happening? 45:04 JB: In my position as Democratic State Chairman, we had people for the war and people against the war. Mccarthyites were against it early on, even before Bobby Kennedy came out against it. I was trying to hold the party together. I did not take a position on it because I thought that it was a unique situation, position, to be in. But I did after Bobby Kennedy came on and then I got to know Al Lowenstein, leader of the group, and others. I did come out against the war. We had to elect Kennedy President and I was the one that was like the mediator between warring sides and all that sort of thing within the party. Yeah. 45:59 SM: At that time when you saw some of the politicians changing the lives of young people. And then you eventually came on that side yourself. Had this ever happened before in American history that a generation of youth had this kind of impact? 46:17 JB: I think there have been protests before, but not all young people. Young people really brought this about. 46:28 SM: When the best history books are written about the growing up years of the boomers, say twenty-five from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers? They are just reaching fifty now. When their history books are written, and the best history books are written fifty years after an event ̶ when the best history books on the growing up years for the boomers, say twenty-five to fifty years from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers, then? 47:00 JB: Well, I think their generation, as we mentioned a little while ago, was the main force behind getting the war stopped. They were the main force of getting Lyndon Johnson to drop out of the race for re-election. There was turmoil going on in the country, much of it caused by that generation. I was the chairman of the New York State delegation at the Democratic Convention (1968), which then was the largest delegation in the country. Then we were larger than California. That was a tumultuous time in Chicago. Outside there were all sorts of demonstrations going on. At one point half my delegation was in jail. We had a candlelight parade that was not supposed to go over a line the police drew, they went over the line, and they all got thrown in jail. Yeah, (19)68. All sorts of things happened that really reflected what was going on in the country, much more than the Republican Convention, which was just an orchestrated political rally. But my point is that the boomer generation was responsible for that. If they had not had the guts to do it, it would not have been done. I do not think any political leader could have been comfortable out there without their support as a political leader on their side ̶ and maybe not gotten any votes without their support. 48:06 SM: (19)68, right? Last question here. Youth believed they could have impact on society and government policy in the (19)60s and (19)70s ̶ Vietnam, draft, civil rights legislation, nonviolent protests, multiple movements ̶̶ in other words, a sense of empowerment. Why is society resisting this today? And why, in your own words, do the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society, in some respects, less desire and seeing less opportunity? Am I wrong in assuming this in this question? 49:28 JB: No, no, I think you are right. It is hard to say why they feel that way, talking about the X generation, right? I do not know, they do not seem to relate, that is why I think the boomer generation has to tell them what happened and make it more personal to them. There are a couple of movies they can see, like "Born on the Fourth of July," an Oliver Stone movie and things like that were really very powerful and would be real good for the next generation to see. But I do not know why, as I say, there is a fall off of enthusiasm with each generation for a given cause. They have done that, they have fallen off. Maybe they need a new cause? Maybe they need something to happen to bring them all together to fight for a cause? Because the fight itself is exciting, the fight itself gives them a lot of spirit and a lot of dedication. 50:21 SM: That is what so many young people tell me, that there is no cause. 50:59 JB: So writing this book, when do you finish with your interviews? 51:03 SM: Actually it is going to probably be about eighteen months of interviews, because I work full time and I have not been able to take time off from work and we take a lot of trips to Washington. 51:13 JB: And you will have to analyze all the interviews. 51:15 SM: Yeah, what I am going to do is ̶ 51:20 JB: And computerize some of it? Transcribe them and a secretary I am going to hire to type the things. Basically going to mostly be verbatim from the interviews so that I am not being judgmental. I want the people who read them to make their decisions. Yeah. 51:33 SM: My goal was to interview three hundred people. That is a lot. 51:37 JB: That is a lot, yeah ̶ 51:39 SM: And by three hundred people, it could be two hundred interviews. I can have ten Vietnam veterans in a room. But in the end, I hope that I can do something to add to the discussion because I am real concerned. I have been in universities now for seventeen years and I am trying to analyze what the boomers have done, and what their influence has been myself. And I want to find out more. 51:45 JB: Oh, I get you. 52:12 SM: I do want to, just on these names that got cut out here, I did write some notes. Just read and respond on a couple of these names if you can. Jane Fonda. 52:23 JB: She has a lot of courage and integrity. She knew she would be very unpopular for what she did. But I think she, I think her meaning was to help her country and not the opposite as some people claim. She wanted to help her country by getting it out of the war. 52:43 SM: And then Tom Hayden. 52:50 JB: Tom Hayden? I think he looks good. He has been elected many times out of the California legislature, so he has a constituency. He was a rabble rouser in the minds of some people. As you mentioned he has come to Chicago, this time as a delegate instead of a protester. I think a lot of people that protested the war, who were regarded at that time as troublemakers are now regarded as the guys who were on the right side ̶ including the President [Bill Clinton]. 53:24 SM: Lyndon Johnson. 53:28 JB: Lyndon Johnson, I said, except for the war. I mean, his effect on .generation was the war, the main thing was the war. And they scorned him for it. But except for the war, If you could set that aside, he had a marvelous record of social legislation. 53:46 SM: And Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy. 53:48 JB: Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy were the most inspirational leaders we have ever had in my lifetime. They brought hope to young people and stood for the good things in government. They tried to get young people involved in the government and bring them into working in the government and doing good things for their country. And they brought the tragic, patriotic feelings to people. 54:18 SM: And Richard Nixon and Timothy Leary. 54:21 JB: Well, Richard Nixon was a pitiful case. He was a brilliant man in some respects. He was very paranoid, and I think he was a mean spirited guy in many, many ways. In some ways he did some good things as president, but overshadowed by Watergate, by his lying to the public. Timothy Leary I think was a nut case and a very bad influence. As a Harvard professor, that brings some prestige to just that title. He did have an effect on a lot of young people. He got a lot of young people into the habit of drug selling and that the use of drugs is good for them and the wonderful experience, they should do it. I do not know how many lives he ruined, but he must have ruined some. It was very bad for our country. 55:14 SM: And then the last three names ̶ Dr. King, George McGovern, and Daniel Ellsberg. 55:22 JB: Martin Luther King was an inspirational leader for all people of all colors, because he did some very difficult, almost impossible things. And he brought about these things in a nonviolent way. He preached nonviolence just like Mahatma Gandhi in India, like Jesus Christ did. I mean, he saw what was wrong, he wanted to right it, but he wanted to right it without any physical harm to anybody. And I think that made him a great, great American. Who is the next one named? George McGovern, a very decent man, was a good leader, was with a great senator. He was very concerned about hunger and work done on hunger within America for many years in the Senate. I think he got a bum rap when he ran for president. He was running against Nixon, I think. He was perceived by the public as sort of like involved with the hippies and the left wing and that he was not a solid guy. He was a very solid guy. Daniel Ellsberg was a man of principle and n he did what he thought was right. 56:45 SM: Senator (Eugene) McCarthy? 56:45 JB: Senator McCarthy was a man of principle. I think he had some guts to do what he did. I do not think it was a personable guy, but that is just a personal thing. 57:01 SM: Any final thoughts you want to say at all? 57:04 JB: I have said enough I think. It was an interesting era to play some role, a lot of history there, you know. We had some high spots and low spots. The lowest of course for me was when Robert Kennedy was assassinated. 57:22 SM: Is Allard Lowenstein buried in an unmarked grave between Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy at Arlington. I heard that he was., 57:31 JB: I never knew that. I do not know where he is buried. 57:35 SM: I was in California when he was shot by one of his friends. 57:40 JB: There was a guy with all sorts of energy, I will tell you. I worked for him to win for Congress. He ran in Brooklyn against an old guy named John Rooney who was part of the Democratic establishment in Brooklyn. He had been in Congress for years, the chairman of some important committee. Anyway, I worked for Al, much to the disdain of Lee Esposito, who was the Brooklyn leader at the time and lost that election. He did go to Congress, I think from another district out in Long Island for one term. He [Esposito] came back to Brooklyn, got beat out there the second time. I knew his wife, I knew him. A very interesting guy. 58:31 SM: [garbled] 58:43 JB: Al Lowenstein had a way of organizing students better than anyone I ever heard of. He was a hero on the campuses. He knew how to get things done. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 1 Microcassette Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Burns Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Burns, John J., 1921-2004 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Politicians--United States--New York; Democratic Party (N.Y.); Burns, John J., 1921-2004--Interviews Description An account of the resource John J. Burns (1921-2004) was the New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.181 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 59:14 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/10127539f117cddd48c3c7fc723997d8.jpg c27d1415eedde73903372841a173ddcb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8bb660f97c8755d65a4b773e9c373dbb.mp3 fa9430b5330aec4c4bcdc90bae48533e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gaylord Nelson, 1916-2005 Date of Interview 1996-07-25 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 88:33 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Gaylord Nelson (1916-2005) was a politician and environmentalist who served as a United States Senator and Governor. He was the original founder of Earth Day, a leading consumer advocate, strong supporter of civil rights and civil liberties, and one of the earlier outspoken opponents of the Vietnam War. Nelson received his bachelor's degree in Political Science from San Jose State University and his LL.B. degree from the University of Wisconsin Law School in Madison.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Gaylord Nelson (1916-2005) was a politician and environmentalist who served as a United States Senator and Governor. He was the original founder of Earth Day, a leading consumer advocate, a strong supporter of civil rights and civil liberties, and one of the earlier outspoken opponents of the Vietnam War. Nelson received his bachelor's degree in Political Science from San Jose State University and his LL.B. degree from the University of Wisconsin Law School in Madison.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Ken Burns; WWII generation; Environmental Movement; Liberals; Counterculture; Vietnam War; Generation X; Baby boom generation; Dysfunctional family; Earth Day; Activism.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Ken Burns; WWII generation; Environmental Movement; Liberals; Counterculture; Vietnam War; Generation X; Baby boom generation; Dysfunctional family; Earth Day; Activism.</span> Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; Environmentalists; Nelson, Gaylord, 1916-2005--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gaylord Nelson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nelson, Gaylord, 1916-2005 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; Environmentalists; Nelson, Gaylord, 1916-2005--Interviews Description An account of the resource Gaylord Nelson (1916-2005) was a politician and environmentalist who served as a United States Senator and Governor. He was the original founder of Earth Day, a leading consumer advocate, a strong supporter of civil rights and civil liberties, and one of the earlier outspoken opponents of the Vietnam War. Nelson received his bachelor's degree in Political Science from San Jose State University and his LL.B. degree from the University of Wisconsin Law School in Madison. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-07-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.142a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.142b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 88:33 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5d4c797751fa45bb17b6ae887e92a43b.jpg a4c079a074970c3da0c3993789e161d9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3b34154c31e6be1c012acf5563be5028.mp3 0e516e7b49bc6ac776ab65f050ed51c0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1996-09-21 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Harris Wofford Language English Biographical Text <span>Harris Wofford is a lawyer, educator, politician, author, and co-founder of the Peace Corps. Wofford has more than sixty years of experience, starting with the Army Air Corps in World War II and continuing through government and community service during the terms of ten Presidents. </span><span>Wofford also served as the first President of SUNY School at Old Westbury and Bryn Mawr College. </span><span>He received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Chicago and he graduated from Yale and Howard University Law Schools. </span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 62:11 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam Veterans; Baby boom generation; Contemporary American Society; Rock and Roll; Drugs; Andy Warhol; Jimmy Carter; Gerald Ford; Nineteen eighties; Bill Clinton; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon B. Johnson; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; George H. Bush; George W. Bush; Barack Obama; Vietnam Memorial.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Vietnam Veterans; Baby boom generation; Contemporary American Society; Rock and Roll; Drugs; Andy Warhol; Jimmy Carter; Gerald Ford; Nineteen eighties; Bill Clinton; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon B. Johnson; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; George H. Bush; George W. Bush; Barack Obama; Vietnam Memorial.</span> Subject LCSH Lawyers; Politicians--United States; Authors; Wofford, Harris--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Senator Harris Wofford Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wofford, Harris ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Lawyers; Politicians--United States; Authors; Wofford, Harris--Interviews Description An account of the resource Harris Wofford is a lawyer, educator, politician, and author. Wofford has more than sixty years of experience, starting with the Army Air Corps in World War II and continuing through government and community service during the terms of ten Presidents. <span>Wofford also served as the first President of SUNY School at Old Westbury and Bryn Mawr College. </span>He received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Chicago and he graduated from Yale and Howard University Law Schools. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-09-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.123 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:11 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/51852f7856db4bdc6c834d347165bed6.jpg 3c74f4cd9a389dcc17dc01be8f7dd465 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/44ab1081e03e1b7dc68cd5d38b0c12ef.mp3 4a0c11bf70d47b3cd830d51069ef77a5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1996-11-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joseph Lee Galloway Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Joseph Lee Gallaway is a veteran war correspondent and an author. In his writing, Galloway covered conflicts all across the world, including the Vietnam War, the first Persian Gulf War, and the Iraq War. He is the co-author of the Vietnam War book We Were Soldiers Once... and Young, which was later adapted into a movie, We Were Soldiers.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:7043,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Joseph Lee Gallaway is a veteran war correspondent and author. In his writing, Galloway covered conflicts all across the world, including the Vietnam War, the first Persian Gulf War, and the Iraq War. He is the co-author of the Vietnam War book <em>We Were Soldiers Once... and Young</em>, which was later adapted into a movie, <em>We Were Soldiers</em>.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam Veterans; Free love; Campus Demonstration; Vietnam War; Non-political entity; Veteran Memorial; Baby boom generation; Army; This Noble Land: My Vision for America; James A. Michener; Soviet Empire; Lyndon B. Johnson; George McGovern; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Vietnam Veterans; Free love; Campus Demonstration; Vietnam War; Non-political entity; Veteran Memorial; Baby boom generation; Army; This Noble Land: My Vision for America; James A. Michener; Soviet Empire; Lyndon B. Johnson; George McGovern; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 107:13 Subject LCSH War correspondents; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 -- Journalists; Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988 -- Journalists; Iraq War, 2003-2011 -- Journalists; Authors; Gallaway, Joseph Lee--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Joseph Lee Galloway Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 18 November 1996 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:05 JG: There is home. But in this case, and maybe in every case, that was wrong, that it was not, Dan Garcia, who, whoever left home. He was at home with professionalism, he was at home with his courage. He was at home with those he served with. And maybe, just maybe it is we, who did not go, who did not serve, for whatever reason, who have been away from home all these years. And so, I say, not a welcome home to Dan, but a welcome to the rest of us. That is very powerful stuff. 00:44 SM: Wow. That is. 00:44 JG: And I have showed that to a number of Vietnam veterans, and every one of them just left with tears in their eyes, at how right he got it. And I am sure in my heart that-that-that Peter Goldmark was probably a campus protestor, march against the war. And I wrote him and told him, that I that I really would love to see him, expand on that those remarks and give them to a broader audience. Because where we are now is, is we need reconciliation, this country, the war, rip-rip, ripped the country apart. And either we find some way to forgive each other and forgive ourselves or the world just keep killing us like those old Cambodian mines keep children that were not even born when the war ended. 01:47 SM: See that is the premise of why I am trying to do this project. There were a couple of things that that prompted me to even try to do this. I have worked at universities now for over 18 years. But in the last five years, when we do programs both on and off campus, I have taken students to meet leaders and I got involved with Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Philadelphia. We did a program at my former school at Jefferson where Don Bailey, the former Auditor General, who was a Purple Heart recipient in the Vietnam War refused to sit down with the Vietnam veterans responsible for the wall in Philly. We did a program at my former school at Jefferson where Don Bailey, the former Auditor General, who was a Purple Heart recipient in the Vietnam War refused to sit down with the Vietnam veterans responsible for the wall in Philly. And they, you may remember, uh, many years back when they tried to put the wall together in Philadelphia, that, uh, some of the top Vietnam veterans went to Washington, took the names off the wall, and walked the entire distance back to Philadelphia, and then buried the names right at the, at the ceremony when they opened several years. And Bailey would not shake hands with those veterans. And I thought that kind of- That was my first inkling that despite all the fantastic things with the wall, the healing and so forth, that maybe there is still a lot of healing that has to be done, not only within the Vietnam veteran community, but within the nation as a whole. And then a couple other instances have led up to this desire to try to interview people for their perceptions on questions that I am asking everyone. And then of course, there is spontaneity going in different directions, because my basic purpose here is to- It is a very complex issue, the Vietnam War and the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and the Boomer generation, their impact on America. But I guess I am frustrated because I see tremendous attacks being leveled against the Boomers right now, which is my generation. And first question I wanted to ask you is, when you look at all the current criticisms of the Boomer generation, which is those people born between 1946 and (19)64, but mostly those Boomers who were in college or of college age during the Vietnam War. A lot of criticism's being leveled against them as to the breakdown of American society, the drug scene started then, the divorce rate is on the rise, being the free love and effects and all that other stuff happened at that time. No respect for authority, because on college campuses during the war, there was protests, and they did not respect administrators or anybody in position of authority. Of course, they were lied to by their government. But what are your thoughts on the criticisms today leveling against the entire Boomer generation and the decay of our society going right back to those times? 04:31 JG: Well, the first thing I have to say is that I am not a Boomer. I was born in (19)41, before the war started. I am a prewar model by three weeks. But what that means is that I did not, I did not meet my father until I was four years old, four and a half, when he came back from-from the army. I guess everybody's thoughts about the boomer generation are-are shaped, to a large extent by what you have read and what you have seen of the (19)60s and the (19)70s. My thing is that-that during the (19)60s and the (19)70s, I was out of this country. I went, I have essentially left this country in 1964, and did not come back until 1980. I was a war correspondent in Vietnam, I was a foreign correspondent. I served Tokyo, Vietnam, Tokyo, Indonesia, India, Singapore, and then finished up with three years as the bureau chief in Moscow for UPI. So, I cannot tell you that I ever saw campus demonstration in this country, or that I ever saw confrontations with the police, except as I read them, newspapers and in the magazines, and saw the stories on the wire. So, I guess my view is, is a little removed. And maybe a little less passionate as to what went on. The boomers, I think, had no patent on the changes that took place in this country. They were a catalyst. Sometimes for good sometimes for bad. I am not sure that you can saddle them with responsibility for everything. But they are responsible for enough to make it interesting. 06:59 SM: What were your thoughts? As a person who served in Vietnam, when maybe you were not here in America, but you were-were over there. And you heard about, you heard about the protests, things that were happening on the college campuses, probably, I would say started around (19)65 and until about 1972. What were your thoughts as a person who was over there serving, and then the thoughts of your contemporaries and how you may be changed over the years and your perceptions of- 07:32 JG: The thing is that I always looked as to motive. Personally, after the first six weeks that I was in Vietnam, I found myself rather opposed to this war. I thought it was being fought very stupidly. I thought that we had bitten off a rather larger chunk than this country would ever be able to chew. It did not take long. I mean, I arrived there, sort of all I knew about war was what I had learned in John Wayne movies, and I think on the third day in country, I found myself on a helicopter landing on a hill where a Vietnamese ranger battalion had been overrun and every man killed, and we were there to find and collect the body of the American advisors. And so, you know, I helped carry that man to that helicopter. And I thought to myself, right then and there, this is, this is not, this is not quite what I thought it was going to be. 08:47 SM: Then this is (19)64? 08:48 JG: This is 1965, March-March of (19)65. I landed there, right after the first battalion of US Marines came ashore at Da Nang. And this was immediately thereafter. And you know, and in the process of doing that story, I immediately ran into some IVS volunteers who worked that province. And I said, “I bet you are glad to see Americans here.” And the guy looked at me like I was crazy. He said, “No, this is complicating my life, no end and making it much more dangerous. Before I could drive the roads of this province, rather freely, taking care of people who were starving or needed medical help or whatever. And now I cannot because all Americans have become priority targets”. And so, you know, literally the first week I began finding out stuff that made me question whether this was-was a very wise course we had undertaken to walk. Now as for these people back here, who really, the demonstrations did not get started until late (19)65. I think it was, oh, the old beat poet. Ginsberg had a demonstration in San Francisco in November of 1965. And I think that was one of the very earliest ones. And I, when I was doing research on our book, I-I went back and looked at that, and I found Senator Everett Dirksen, denouncing these people, as communists and traders and suggesting that they all be shot. So, you know, it was a real startling sort of a development at that time. I cannot say that I knew at that time that it happened to me, but I do not think it crossed my, my radar scope. By the time there was a movement, and there was a major confrontation going on. I am afraid that although I oppose the war myself, I could find not a lot to say for these people who also opposed it because I questioned their motives. I thought it was, shall we say enlightened self-interest. It was a protest against the draft far more than it was against the war. And I thought it was very elitist. I thought, you know, I knew who was fighting alongside me in Vietnam, I knew very-very well, because in the first major battle of the war, in the Drang Valley, I met a kid from my high school class that I graduated with in Refugio, Texas. And that was a graduating class of (19)55 kids. And his name was Vincent Cantu. And in that valley, for a dozen more guys, Hispanics, all of them from South Texas, within 20, 30 miles of my hometown, so I knew who was fighting this war. And I knew who was not fighting this war. And so, I had some trouble with their motives. 12:32 SM: Let me check this to make- 12:37 JG: Something to drink? 12:37 SM: I am fine. I got my Coke here. I stopped at McDonald’s. Talking about the motives now kind of moving up to 1996 as opposed to 1965. The Vietnam memorial was built as a nonpolitical entity. I really admire Jan Scruggs, and all the people involved in that whole process making that happen. I know all about the obstacles that he faced with getting that particular part of a portion of land and so forth, but it is a nonpolitical entity. Yet, when I go to the wall, and I have tried to go the last four Memorial Days, I have been there the last form or days and this is my third veterans day in a row to try to get an ambience and a feel for what transpires there, I sense that there is, there definitely is a lot of healing. But I still get the sense that we have a long way to go. And when I say a long way to go, not only amongst the veterans, but the non-veterans, the people who come to that wall, yours truly the Steve McKiernan's, who was in college at that time did not serve. I was a severe asthmatic, and I got out of the service that way. But it was not I was getting out of the service. I just could not serve. I had a very severe asthma. But the division seemed to still be there. And the question I was trying to raise is-is how much healing has really taken place amongst the veteran’s number one? And will they ever forgive those who were on the other side? The those who oppose the war. And the second question is, do you think there is merit in trying to take the next step beyond the wall, which was to heal the Vietnam veterans to try to heal the generation, the whole generation which the divisions still seem to happen? I just liked your thoughts on both of those questions. 14:28 JG: Well, to start, to start at the top of the wall, and the end, the whole sort of homecoming exercise of the last 12 or 15 years has been for the veterans, a very positive, very healing experience. I-I find it very hard to explain to someone who does not carry the same baggage, exactly what it means. The best way, I guess is to tell you that I have never been so privileged and honored as, as this past Veteran’s Day. When I got to hold up, lift up a young boy, four and a half years old Thomas Alexander Rudell, so that for the first time, he could touch the name of his grandfather, my friend, Captain Tom Metzger, who was killed in action,14, November 1965. And over my shoulder, I can see Tom's daughter, I could see both pride and pain their eyes. And so, to me, this is, man this is this is more than any church I have ever been in. It has more power to it. It is without question, the most powerful and healing piece of art that I know of, on the face of this earth. And it is so for most of those who went to Vietnam, it was a place that that for us is- I have seen too much magic there either. There is no other word for it. If you go talk to the volunteers who work at that wall and ask them for their stories. They will tell someone come up and say, “I am looking for someone who knew my father.” And they will say, “Go stand at his panel, and just stay there a while, and something will happen.” And it always does. There is there is a potency to that experience. That is, it is almost overwhelming. But that is healing for those who were directly wounded. If you are going to look for healing for those who did not go for whatever reason, I am not sure that is not the place. They are not going to find healing there for themselves. I do not know what we do about them. What we do about-about reconciliation. This is something that has got to be worked on. And we need to work on it. 17:35 SM: That reconciliation. Talking about almost like Lewis [Burwell] Puller [Jr.] was talking about before he killed himself back in (19)94, when he reached out, when the invitation to Bill Clinton to come to the Vietnam Memorial that year. And then Lewis wanted to sit and right beside him as he was speaking, remember that? I watched it. And I got to know Lewis briefly before he killed himself because I took students to the wall, and he spent three hours with our students there. And then the following spring, killed himself. Our students were quite shocked. But it was, it is the business of healing. That wall is for Vietnam veterans to heal, and their families and those who served because that is what is for, it to pay tribute to them, the people who served this country and gave the ultimate price because they were not welcomed home. But the next step is I would like your commentary in terms of when the invitation was given by Jan, and Lewis was supportive of it, to bring Bill Clinton there. That is, that is to me is tremendous reconciliation, bringing the other side. And it is almost like, I know how veterans feel toward McNamara the most a lot of them hate him because of some of the things he did. But would not the ultimate reconciliation be having him at the wall? Or having your strongest opponents Tom Hayden at the wall? Or trying to say those were very difficult times. We need to heal as a nation and shake hands, forgive. And it is hard to forget sometimes some of the things that went on, especially Jane Fonda going to Hanoi. Now, that is hard to forgive, but- 19:24 JG: Well, I have a-a lot bigger problem forgiving McNamara. He is the guy who knew, and he lied. And he, he lost heart in the war very early on probably as a result of the battle that I fought in. The battle that I wrote about. I think by November 1965, he knew it was a lost cause. And he did not have the balls to stand up, say it. He did not have the balls to give the right advice to his boss, President Johnson. He just silenced himself. He walled off his arm on judgment and was a good soldier for too long, terrible more years. And he did not address any of that in his book that he wrote last year. That-that is a that is a quibbler’s book. It is a book that tries to point blame at everybody but himself. I got no forgiveness for a guy like that. He dies, he goes to hell, ninth level. And Lyndon Johnson is waiting for him. And Boy is he pissed- 20:35 SM: That is amazing he was- 20:40 JG: Clinton-Clinton is the national command authority. He is the chief executive; he is the Commander in Chief of the armed services. On that day that you talk about, when Clinton came to the wall, that morning at Arlington National Cemetery, I was the master of ceremonies at-at Memorial Day services, and I looked at this crowd, I had about 30 minutes with him before he got there. And I saw some who were thinking about making a noise. And I said, ‘Do not do it.” I said, “Whatever else you may think of him, you respect the office, but more important than that, you respect my friends and your friends who rest here”. And I talked about Tom Metzger whose grave is not far from the amphitheater. And I talked about his daughter. And I talked about some other people who are buried there that I said, “Do not you by your actions here today, do not you dare dishonor them.” And they were pretty good. They behaved themselves. And if they would not have, I would have kicked their butts. And I think they knew that too. But I the President of the United States is a different case. I think you have to suspend judgment because of the office, whether you like the guy who is in it or not. And I do not know what Bill Clinton did. I do not think anybody knows what Bill Clinton did except Bill Clinton. If you want to forgive, you ought to confess, I believe that is the way the Catholics deal with it. 22:35 SM: I think when he came there, I wrote an article for The Philadelphia Inquirer. They did not print it. But it was printed it on our campus. And it was basically saying that the wall was the was the step toward healing from the Vietnam War, but I felt I called the visit like the next step. There may have been a lot of veterans that were against him. But when he came to the Vietnam Memorial, I know they were expecting a lot of people to be protesting him. And but there were not that many really, when you look at the numbers that were there, according to- I was not there. That is my shirt come in the next year. Look to me, like there were very few. And there were placards up there. There were more than- 23:14 JG: I was sitting right down there in the VIP seats. 23:17 SM: So, there were more than the 200 that they say there were? 23:21 JG: They had them walled off way up the hill. 23:23 SM: Okay. 23:24 JG: Behind the fence. And, and they were raising the hell. I do not know how many there were, but it sounded like a lot to me. Because I could not, even from that distance. You could hear them chanting, you could hear them screaming. You could hear them hollering. You could hear them taking on an unfamiliar role for them being a protestor. 23:48 SM: That again, goes back to the old business of having a hard time forgiving and forgetting. 23:55 JG: Yeah. 23:55 SM: And-and the wall is supposed to be a place of healing. Nonpolitical, yet there is a political statement being made right there. 24:03 JG: Yeah. Sorry. Life is like that. 24:10 SM: When you look at the Boomers and I got just some general questions, when you look at the Boomer generation, what do you see as their most positive qualities and their most negative qualities? Now you are, you are a couple of years before Jack Smith, I remember when I interviewed him. He is one year older than- But I have never put up a timeframe on Boomers. Because many of the leaders of the protest movement were older graduate students in their late 20s when college students were just coming there at 18, 19. But from your own personal perspective, when you look at the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and the attacks being made in America, what-what are the positive qualities of the young people of that era and one of the negative qualities in your eyes? 24:57 JG: Well, for whatever motive they question. If they ask hard questions, I respect that. They, earlier than most Americans got a quick feel that they were being lied to by their government, by their president. They knew how to raise hell to get attention to what it was-was their cause. All of these are positive things in my view, the government should be looked at with great suspicious of them as they were of Lyndon Johnson. So that is the positive. The negative. Well, I carried the questioning onto lengths and depths maybe they should not have crossed. Anything that opens the country to an epidemic of casual dope use casual sex, casual calls for overthrowing the system and revolution. I think those are all negatives. 26:55 SM: Of course, the overthrowing of- 26:57 JG: And my question would be where the fuck did their revolution go? When the draft ended, juice went out of the movement. And a revolution went down the whole. 27:17 SM: Well, the Boomers always used to- a lot them used to saying college campuses at that timeframe- Of course, I cannot always preface this on college campuses. Because over half of the young people in America, that era did not even go to college. So, we kind of tend to have a tendency at times to just concentrate on what was happening in the schools, and not really investigate what has happened to the other half of the Boomer generation that never attended college. But it is no question that the issues, the issues are what drew students to protest, and that the passion toward those issues, but when the war ended, the Boomers aged. Are they like any other generation? Because Boomers used to say that- 28:04 JG: Forever. 28:05 SM: “We are, we are the most unique generation in American history. Number one, we are going to change the world.” And thirdly, a slogan of that period was it was a very famous Peter Max poster, “You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful.” So, there was that mentality of doing their own thing and, and whatever cause it might be. And the goal would be, hopefully to work together on solving issues. But- 28:33 JG: I, you know, if I am going to fault them for something is that they tend not to clean up the books. You know, they leave a lot of accounts open, things that yesterday they were willing to die for, or at least be uncomfortable for. And when it is done, they do not balance the books. They do not stop and look and say, “Wow, you know, these agrarian reformers that we supported in Cambodia have turned out to be some of the greatest butchers in the history of the world.” Who is protesting? I heard a little bit out of Joan Baez, and that was it. And she was essentially walled off from her whole generation as a consequence. And I have had this argument with, with Boomers before I said, “Where the hell is Jane Fonda?” You have got 3 million dead people. You got bones piled to the ceiling in Cambodia. Where is Jane? Where is Tom? Where-where are the people who cared so much for life. Now, it is all happening in a vacuum because they do not care. They moved on to something else. 30:00 SM: I think Tom Hayden still living his life the way-. He is kind of- he has been in politics out of California. And he is kind of still working hard on the environment and still living as he always did. Although he is very Jane Fonda. What a combination. Has your opinion changed over the last 25 years? When you when you came back in 19? Well, when you were there in (19)65, and then of course, you were over in Europe as a reporter, have you changed your attitudes toward the Boomer generation over that 25-year period? Where have you been pretty consistent in your thoughts on them? 30:40 JG: Fairly consistent. I was a little surprised when they all turned up as lawyers and stockbrokers, driving Volvo's doing the consumer thing. But I guess that is normal. I guess that is a normal progression. But the question is-is that I have had I have had from very early on, and they are still not answered. So no, I have not I have not changed my opinion. 31:20 SM: And those questions are again. 31:26 JG: Where is your revolution? What have you done in this world? You are now turning 50? What have you what have- what is your impact beside the impending bankruptcy of Social Security and Medicare? Where have you left your mark? How have you changed the world? Where- how have you done all those things that you have demonstrated for or demanded? Where is the, where is the beef? 32:02 SM: Would not you say to that, it might be kind of early to say where is the beef? Boomers are just turning 50. And, and this is the time now where they could be leaders the next 10-15 years. So, it is kind of difficult to evaluate them at this juncture. It is a little too early. Would not you say? You are- 32:21 JG: 50, you are getting near the end of the game. You better have a few scouts on your belt, or you are not much of a warrior. You know, this is what they say in the financial planning business. It is time to get serious. Boy, you are going to retire here before long. What have you done? What have you done? 32:52 SM: When you look at the, you know, because you cannot talk about 60 million people just like you cannot talk about all Vietnam veterans. But are there examples of Boomers that you know, who have lived a lifetime of commitment toward a variety of issues? And just as they were when they were 20. They are still doing it at 50. 33:13 JG: Yeah, I would say there are. They have to be out there. I have met some of them. I think like all of us, their-their perspectives have changed. Maybe their causes have changed some. 33:43 SM: I am going to ask a question about trust. When I had a conversation with Senator Muskie, about five years ago, when I took students to Washington, and during the conversation, we were talking about the (19)68 Convention. And at that juncture, I brought up a question about the lack of trust that young people at that time had in people like him, vice presidential running mate, United States senator, you name it. And I wanted him to respond to that. Because I think a lot of people in my generation still do not trust because of what the government did during the Vietnam War. Certainly, the Watergate, everybody knows about Watergate, but the lack of trust, and we see it even amongst the Boomers who do not even vote. Boomers do not vote, and their children do not vote. And a lack of trust and authority already because they were lied to in many respects during the Vietnam War and the-the enemies list that Nixon- all these things have added up and kind of left a psychological imprint into the minds of many of the Boomers not to trust or to ever trust. What is your commentary with respect to that issue of trust am I right on when I am talking about that, and the effect it has had on this generation? And is that, is that one of the lasting effects of those people born between (19)46 and (19)64? Because they went through these experiences they cannot trust and thus they carry that out of their kids, and they do not trust leaders as well. 35:17 JG: I would you know. The strange thing is-is that it is, it is those lower middle class, and lower-class kids who were drafted and shipped first to Vietnam to fight and die, who ought to have less trust in situation than almost anyone, and yet maybe they have more. They still send their children to the army. None of the others do. The army is as a volunteer force, even more isolated than it was as a draftee force by far. Recruitment is all from probably seven Southern states, 80-90 percent of it. 36:10 SM: Oh really? 36:11 JG: Sure. Who sends their kids to the army? There is an economic force and there is, to a lesser extent, sort of familial pressure, there is a 30 percent of them are black. So, there is an economic thing. And there is also the fact that, that, surprisingly, the army may have the most level playing field in American society. If you are a person of color, you go in and if you can meet the standards, you get promoted. So those people who probably have less reason than anybody else to trust- 36:56 SM: Trust more. 36:57 JG: Still trust their children, in the hands of the army in the hands of government, if you will, in the hands of Bill Clinton, who uses the army more readily than any president I have ever known. 37:12 SM: That is an interesting observation. Because- 37:16 JG: Wh-What has happened? The peaceniks are shipping armies. This guy moves, troops at the drop of a hat. It is almost like he does not know that a military course is the last card you play, not the first card. He also does not seem to understand when he was standing out in front of the embassy in London, demonstrating because we were trying to be the world's policeman, what the hell is he doing now? We have an army that is a 911 reaction force. You call we haul? You got someone starving in Rwanda, being killed in the millions by their own government? Hey, we will go fix it. You got a problem in Bosnia? We will send 20,000 American soldiers in there. That is because there is nobody on Capitol Hill. There is nobody in the upper half of your generation, who has a kid in that in that force. 38:35 SM: It is true. 38:36 JG: I do not even know someone who has a kid in that force. If-if war starts tomorrow, there are precisely two people in the US news and world report building who have ever heard a shot fired in anger, and I am half of that force. And the other is a guy who was out in LA who was a grunt. 39:06 SM: Oh, my goodness. How many people were in there? 39:08 JG: Well, there is 130 or 40, editorial side people. But hey, they come out of a different place. They come out of the elite. So, I, you know, basically, their right to be suspicious. Are they right to turn their back on democracy as a system? I doubt that. I would say they are very wrong on that. You know, you have a duty to vote. You have an obligation. It is the simple obligation of citizenship. You live and the freest country on the face of this earth. I think you also have an obligation to defend it, but we will leave that aside. You at least have a minimal obligation to care about who governs it. How it is governed and go down and vote. If you do not do that, you are not much of a citizen are you? 40:11 SM: You are not, definitely. I have seen that amongst college students today. Statistics show that only 18.5 percent of today's young people in entering classes over the last three years have any interest toward being involved in politics, but over 85 percent of them have been involved in some sort of volunteer activity. Now, I am asking myself, and I will ask you the same thing. Is this a sign that students do not feel empowered that their vote does not count that they cannot make a difference? number one, but they feel they can influence other people's lives with their volunteer activity. So, like, an interesting, they can help others. But they are really not feeling empowered to help themselves. 40:54 JG: I do not know the answer to that, I do not know what moves there- they, you know, we are talking, we are sitting here, you and I talking about the Boomers. And, and I can kind of get a fix on them. But I have not got a clue when it comes to the one below them, generation and generation X, whatever you want to call them, you know, these are, these are, this is, this is the generation that-that that is non literate, is the word I am reaching for. But that is not quite it. They are, you know, they do not read books. They are- their information is absorbed visually- 41:31 SM: Fast and sweet. 41:34 JG: Fast, quick. It is computers, it is TV, it is the sort of stuff, and they are not readers. And I do not understand anyone who is not a reader, because it is, it is the very basis of my life. I fell onto it at an early age and-and I have devoured books constantly since then, and it is amazing how far ahead of you they can stay the publishing industry. And now I write books. And I do not know who is going to read them in another 20 years. 42:12 SM: Well, I know that we have computer ages upon us, and in terms of preparing for the future, young people know that they got to be schooling computers, or they are not going to be able to have a decent job, a decent salary, raise a family, you name it. Two good books I would like to recommend for again, in the next question, have you had a chance to read Our War, which is David Harris new book. 42:33 JG: No. 42:34 SM: It is a very good book, for Steven Harris was a protester at Stanford, and went, went to jail for protesting against the war. He was sent to jail for refusing to serve, right. You read the draft; he refused any [crosstalk]. 42:50 JG: A guy that stood up, standup guy. I am not going to go do what I think is wrong. And I am willing to pay the price. I got all the respect in the world, like them as much as I do. 43:02 SM: He was in jail, two years, two plus years. I think. 43:06 JG: Good. That was where he should have been. That was where all the rest of them should have been too. 43:10 SM: Schlesinger has written a book called The Noble Land, which is a very good book, James Schlesinger. Oh, excuse me, James Michener. He has written a brand-new book, This Noble Land, and it is reflecting his 93 years on this earth and talking about the problems of American. It is a good book. 43:28 JG: I will give you a good one that that if you have not read, you should, and it is The Living and The Dead. Robert S. McNamara and Five Lives of Lost World. 43:39 SM: I saw him on footnotes. I have not read the book. Yes. 43:42 JG: Just a splendid book. It is a splendid book. 43:46 SM: There is a person who was touched by the war, who did not serve. 43:51 JG: Yeah. Well, he is a young guy. 43:53 SM: I think he is in his early 40s. I am going to mention a few names here of people that were well known to all boomers in America at the time in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. And I just like to have your comments on them as a person from your own perception and maybe their impact on history, if there is such a thing. I got about 20 different names here and we will be short and sweet. Your perceptions of people like Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda. 44:25 JG: You would start with the word the top, the top dogs there. Well, Miss Fonda is an accomplished actress. Mr. Hayden is a pretty good, far left politician in California on local issues. And I do not have a lot of respect for either one of them for the simple reason that they are prime among those who have not balanced the books. When she issued an apology to the “veterans” that was no apology. It was a politician's apology. If I have offended someone, I apologize only because I have offended them not because I did anything wrong. 45:17 SM: What year did you do that? 45:20 JG: Four or five years ago, five or six, the VFW was breathing down her neck and-and she issued a statement. That was ingenious, disingenuous. disingenuous all of those things and did not apologize to anybody. 45:41 SM: I tried to get an interview with her in Atlanta and she rejected an interview. 45:45 JG: I am sure she did. She has made known to be a housewife. 45:55 SM: Then second would be Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. 46:00 JG: Clown princess. The great court has to have some gestures and they were in. 46:12 SM: Dr. Benjamin Spock. 46:16 JG: Well, Spock raised them. He wrote the book. Ask him if he is happy. The way they turned out. How did his kids turn out? I do not know. 46:28 SM: He has written a brand-new book. He is not too happy with some of the boomers. He is reevaluating- 46:34 JG: Who is he blamed? Their mamas did not read his book, right? 46:42 SM: The Barragan brothers, the two Catholic priests who are. 46:47 JG: Very principled men. They never wavered in their convictions. They were willing, like Harris to go to jail. And did. All I ask is that you be a standup guy, that you make a decision based on your consideration of the evidence, the preponderance of the weight of evidence and stand up and say your peace. And if in the saying of it, you must violate a law then be willing to take the punishment for it. 47:29 SM: It is almost like the same thing that Dr. King was professing during the nonviolent protests. He could not understand why people would not be willing to go to jail for protesting he was, and others said “I do not want to go to jail.” But that is part of being a nonviolent protester. 47:42 JG: I spent three years covering the last days of the Soviet Empire. And it was evil. Reagan got one thing, right. It was an evil empire. I covered the trials of Anatoly Sharansky and Ginsberg and guys like this, and I saw them stand up in the face of certain destruction, and yet clinging to a principle stand there and defy the weight of the most awful dictatorship operating on the face of this earth. And they brought tears to my eyes with their statements. Sharansky’s statement, he was convicted in this kangaroo court, without evidence without anything, he was just convicted. And they asked him made a terrible mistake. They said, “Do you have anything to say?” And we were not allowed in. His brother was there, committing to memory, the words that Anatoly Sharansky was saying to these people, and he walked out and spilled it. And he was crying, and we were crying. And it was it was this is my definition of a standup guy. If more people had done that, the dictatorship would have fallen a lot sooner. 49:19 SM: It is almost like getting back to the Vietnam War in terms of the healing. If there is more of an accountability right now on the part of those who did not serve, where they would be up front of and it is not like Jane Fonda, but they were upfront as to watch. And at the same time, show praise for those who did there could be even a greater healing here in America. 49:39 JG: Sure, you know, I mean, most of the Vietnam vets push to it will tell you “You did not go, you did not want to go. I did not want to go either. If I have been smarter, maybe I would have my folks had a little more money and could have kept me in college.” A lot of what ifs but essentially, there was not a lot to be learned in Vietnam from having gone. The only thing really to be learned there was the nobility of the guy in the hole next to you. The best people I ever met in my life; I feel sorry for people who did not go. Reporters and photographers. Sure. If you are my age, and you were not there, I look at you. And I wonder why. Did you ask to go? Did you try? Did you want to go but you could not get your boss to send you? That is one thing. But you were afraid of your life. And so, you did not go to the biggest story in the last half of our century. You did not go? This is, this is the movie of our generation. And when it happened, where were you? You were out buying popcorn or taking a pee? Where were you? Well, what did I get by going? The only the best friends of mine. The most loyal people that I know, guys, that if I made one phone call, would have a phone tree working like this. And if I needed 200 people out on my farm, for whatever purpose, they would be there tomorrow afternoon. And there are not too many people in this country that can say that. 51:34 SM: Not in 1996. 51:37 JG: When my wife died in January, and I took her home to Texas to bury her. And I was crushed. And I was standing in the family home, and I looked out the window and there stood a dozen Hispanic veterans in Vietnam. They heard they turned up. They had stood beside me before and they were there to stand. 52:07 SM: They care. 52:08 JG: They care. You want to know one other thing? 52:12 SM: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 52:12 JG: The United States Army, the 1st Cavalry Division and the 7th Cavalry Regiments and uniformed delegations to my wife's funeral. So, if you did not go, what you missed was that what you missed was the most important thing in life. And I am sorry, I can forgive you. But I cannot give you that. You got to earn that. Where were you standing? Who were you standing beside? If you are in the mood in the mob, can you make a call today and have 200 people turn up to help you? You would be lucky to get one. So that is how it is. 53:09 SM: The Lyndon Johnson. How about Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara together in there? 53:17 JG: No, let us take them separately. Lyndon Johnson, I mean, it is hard to talk about the man. It really is. There was so much right about him and so much wrong about him, all in the same skin. He was the biggest bundle of contradictions of anybody I have ever seen. He was a liar. He was the quintessence of a Texas dealmaker. He would sell his mama, if it got him what he wanted. He wanted a lot of very interesting things. He wanted an into segregation. He wanted a fair deal for poor Blacks or Hispanics. He wanted somehow to lift them up. But he did not understand the basics of it. He did not understand that you have got to give the guy the tools with which he can lift himself. If you are pulling him up, he does not learn anything, it does not. You know, the heart of this city in the heart of every city in America is a legacy. It is the legacy of Lyndon Baines Johnson and the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. Hey, Nixon did not do that Anacostia, go over and take a look better have some door gunners. 55:14 SM: With those bad sections of town. 55:16 JG: Yeah. How would they get there? How come they are still sitting there? Where are they going? They got there because of Lyndon Johnson. Then that is the good part about it. The bad part is Vietnam. Where he started a war on the installment plan. “We will put a dollar on the table now and a dollar on the table tomorrow and $2 later, and we are going to defraud the American public. We know how many men we are going to send. But we are not going to tell them because they would not like it. We know how many billions upon billions of dollars we are going to spend. But we cannot trust them with that information, because then they will not vote for my programs in Congress, the Great Society programs. So, I am going to flim-flam then.” And nobody a better flim-flam artist than Lyndon Baines Johnson from Johnson City, Texas. So, what does he do? He sends divisions off to war to under strength. He knew early as November of 1965, that he was sending 500 to 600,000 Americans to Vietnam. And yet he could sit there and in his State of the Union speech in January of 1966 said, “We have no plans to increase the force.” He lied, he lied, he lied, and you go to hell for lying the same as you do for cheating and stealing. Robert McNamara-McNamara goes to the same lower level of hell that Lyndon Johnson goes to, and his sin is not only mendacity his sin is arrogance. He lied, he cheated, and he was proud of himself. This guy brought generals to their knees, whipped on them so hard they cried, and he did not have a clue what was going on, or how to make it change. He was a bean counter and he counted beans good. 58:06 SM: Body count, body count. 58:09 JG: Body count, every pernicious influence that Vietnam had tracks right to his fingers you know, I can almost forgive Lyndon Johnson just because he was at least entertaining. McNamara was not even entertaining. He was just evil. 58:33 SM: Bottom line, would you consider him just a bottom-line person? 58:37 JG: Oh, worse because the biggest bottom line of all he got wrong. What do you do if you if the-the accounting-accounting firm that is doing the books of Ford Motor Company or General Motors comes in? Wrong? What-what we do to him nothing? We gave him a nice fat job at the World Bank for 10 years. The son of a bitch that tried to throw him over the rail of the ferry boat to Martha's Vineyard. They should have left him go, okay. All he needed was another 10 seconds and old McNamara had been floating down there. 59:18 SM: That was in Hendrickson’s book, I believe. 59:22 JG: Yeah-yeah. There is a baby boomer who acted on his information and impulse and opportunity and more power to him. 59:31 SM: Couple other people, George Wallace. 59:36 JG: Well, on Wallace, another Southern politician, always far more complex than they appear to be on the surface of it. Doing stuff to get elected when they do not believe in it. Wallace, you know, came on like the biggest seg this country ever saw. And he was not that. He has got a whole lot of black friends and people are forgiving him right and left. 1:00:08 SM: What about Eugene McCarthy? 1:00:15 JG: McCarthy, white guy, smart guy, literate guy you know. The trouble politics in this country is if you want to want win, you got to get down in the mud with the pigs. And Gene McCarthy would not do that. Never did it. Well, he is neither did Adlai Stevenson, these kinds of cerebral guys do not usually win elections. 1:00:45 SM: What about George McGovern? 1:00:49 JG: McGovern, to me is the definition of one too many damn lawyers. 1:00:57 SM: But he was not a lawyer, though. He was a- he had a PhD in history. 1:01:04 JG: McGovern? 1:01:04 SM: Yes. 1:01:06 JG: Becoming lawyers around this town. He has gotten a law degree from somewhere. 1:01:10 SM: He is at the Middle East Studies Institute right now. That is where he is. But he got his PhD in South Dakota. He was just on our campus this past week, he was talking about his daughter, Terry, who died of alcoholism. And he got his PhD in history from University of South Dakota. They are building a library in his name right now there. Then he went off to Congress as, after he got his PhD. ran for office, was a congressman. Then he went on to become a senator. And so, he has, he has a PhD in History. Actually, no one ever calls him Dr. McGovern, because he is a senator, but he was a doctorate. 1:01:44 JG: Damn, I thought he was a lawyer. Sure looks like one. 1:01:48 SM: He is a pretty nice guy. 1:01:49 JG: Well, I have to give him a pass on being a lawyer then. 1:01:55 SM: Some of the other people from that era, Dr. Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. 1:02:00 JG: Once again, you are putting two guys together that ought to be considered separately. But Martin Luther King, the greatest orator or this country ever had. Spoken beautifully, thought beautifully. I wonder, what do you would think of the situation today? I wonder what Dr. King would think of Mayor Marion Berry. I wonder what he would think of a generation of black politicians who are the most pernicious influence [audio cuts] 1:02:47 SM: Dr. King? 1:02:49 JG: I wondered what Dr. King would think of a generation of his disciples who are now Black political leaders in the cities of our country. People like Mayor Marion berry of Washington, DC. And when I say they are political leaders, I am on being very kind. People like Barry and the Blacks who administer this city, are more pernicious influence in the lives of the poor Black people of this city than anything else I can think of. How does this come to be? How do the sons of Martin Luther King wind up wheeling and dealing and selling their own people down the river? In this city, there are about 90,000 people on a waiting list for public housing. And the waiting list is years long. There are at any given moment 30 to 40,000, empty public housing units, that this administration cannot manage to quit stealing the money long enough to fix so that those units can be put back in service. They are either so corrupt or so inefficient, or both, that they cannot do a simple job like fixing apartments so that poor woman and all our kids has a place to live. Now who are they hurting? Who are they hurting the most? They do not hurt me. They do not hurt you. They are hurting that woman and her kids. I think Dr. King would condemn them all to a hell they richly deserved and in ringing tones. 1:04:54 SM: And these are boomer African American leaders that are around the city now. 1:04:57 SM: You got it. 1:05:00 JG: I do not know Marion Barry, but I am disappointed in him though. 1:05:03 JG: Well, you have got a situation where they have to declare, essentially declare the District of Columbia School System, bankrupt, where they take it over and put one of my best friends as the CEO, General Julius Becton, find soldier. So, nowhere near a boomer generation, the man is 70 years old, joined the army in 1945, was a company commander in Korea was a battalion commander in the 101st airborne in Vietnam, who was fixed stuff, all his life. He is a builder. And they got to reach out and pull this man out of a richly deserved retirement to take on what is arguably the worst job in America. 1:05:57 SM: This gets off my questions. I will get back to the names again, we will talk about Malcolm X. You said a builder, this man who is coming into the city as a builder. When you look at the boomers, now you are talking about some of the African American leaders here in this city? Are boomers’ builders? Are they the people that bring people together to unite for a cause for the betterment of society? That is very generalistic terms? But though, that was the mentality on the college campuses, and we are going to- 1:06:26 JG: That was what they set out to be, but they did not end up that. They set out with ringing calls for change and revolution. And they do not even make good caretakers. 1:06:43 SM: Look at the life of Malcolm X, what are your thoughts on him? 1:06:48 JG: I do not think much about Malcolm X. I do not know that he was much of a force for good for his people. If his legacy is-is the guy out in Chicago now. If that is his legacy, what is it worth? A man who divides conquered by division. 1:07:18 SM: At the end of his life, though, a lot of young people, they look at his life as a person who changed because everybody knows that Malcolm was at one time in jail. He was a pimp. Of course, he was a follower, and he was also actually white men are devils that type of mentality. But then the last part of his life he changed when he went to Mecca, so some people look at that life as a person who liked change and he saw the good in everyone as opposed to just-just in black people. 1:07:51 JG: What did it get him? 1:07:52 SM: Got him killed. That was what it got. So, well, a couple of other people here and I have got I have got so many on the list, but these are kind of people from the era. 1:08:03 JG: Keep rolling. 1:08:06 SM: Ralph Nader. These are all names the boomers talk, and this is part of their life. These people were part of their life. 1:08:15 JG: Nader is quixote, I guess, still tilting at windmills? He has been consistent. The Soviets always admired consistency. They said, you know, “We do not care what you are as long as you are consistently that. We have a hard time shifting our view you know, so if you are, you are a son of a bitch as long as you are consistently a son of a bitch we can, we can live with you. It is when you-you bounce from side-to-side.” Nader is consistent. I do not know what his ultimate [inaudible]. He balanced the books on him at the end of his life, what he will have achieved in the long run. 1:09:15 SM: What about the people that were the musicians of the era? Certainly, even in Vietnam and music was played over there. People that have the generation, the Bob Dylan the Jimmy Hendrix, The Janis Joplin, Joan Baez, you name it the list go on and on. What-what are your thoughts about those people who performed the music delivered the messages. I know Country Joe and the Fish, boy, is he unbelievable. You know, when he came to Vietnam memorial, a couple of years back and he performed at the top of the wall and you probably there that day and-and I want to interview him, I am going out to California in the summer. And I want to interview him out at Berkeley because I think he has got an awful lot to say. Have you got his Vietnam album too? 1:09:45 JG: no. 1:09:46 JG: Oh, it is beautiful. He actually wrote a whole album on Vietnam. He has beautiful music and I think he did in the last four years. It is all music for the last four years. What are your What are your thoughts on them? 1:10:11 JG: Well, that is the soundtrack of our generation. That was the music that we heard in Vietnam, it was the same music that was heard in the streets here. Music and Musicians are a powerful force. Almost, I should say, as powerful as poets. Not quite, but almost, you know, the older I get, when I want to find truth, I look in the volumes of poetry not in the volumes of history. So, the musicians, they are out there. When I look at them, it is with a certain amount of sadness. Because so many of them burned their lives out so quickly on drugs. Their messages were mixed. They took their own advice too often and-and it killed a lot of them. 1:11:09 SM: Phil Ochs killed himself. Yeah. So, upset. He is disappointed in life, and he just did himself in. 1:11:18 JG: And that should not be, you know, the bar, just the poet's the musicians, they should be our optimists. They should be giving us a message that allows us to go forward, carry on. If they cannot find in their own music, hope what is there- 1:11:51 SM: If you think about, I do not think there has really been anything written on the musicians in depth, individual books, but looking at the musicians and their impact that time. It is just a couple other ones and that is Daniel Ellsberg. 1:12:10 JG: Ellsberg certainly performed a great service by leaking the Pentagon papers, documentary evidence of the lies that had been told of the bankrupted policy of which he was one of the architects. So, his one great act, was an act of leakage. 1:12:40 SM: Of course, Richard Nixon. 1:12:43 JG: Ah now, Nixon is such a complex man. He is one that I have a hard time forgiving. At least as hard as time as I do McNamara. This is the man who came to office to end the war and yet another 20-25,000 men died while he played politics, he and Kissinger, they all end up in the same level of hell with McNamara and Johnson. They really do. Their whatever contributions they made are so outweighed by the evil that they did. 1:13:34 SM: Do you feel that strongly about Kissinger too? 1:13:37 JG: Yeah, oh, more so with Kissinger. Kissinger was so smart. And then, and yet he would sacrifice anything for his own ambition for His own glory. I think about I really, when I went to Indonesia, the ambassador there was a man named Marshall Green, who had been in the Foreign Service all his life. A very honorable, decent man. He started his career in in the Embassy in Tokyo before on the eve of World War II. And he was the assistant secretary for Far East affairs, the year that Nixon and Kissinger decided to begin the secret bombing campaign and in Cambodia and to do the invasion- 1:14:43 SM: That was 1970, yeah, April 30th. 1:14:46 JG: Yeah. And they ran it by him. Sort of pro forma, you know, and he argued with, he said, “No.” He said, “This is wrong. This will achieve no purpose, except to destroy the Cambodian people. It will not alter the end of the Vietnam War in any measurable fashion, not by one day, not by one body. And it will not make the difference between winning and losing. It will be gratuitous offense against a bunch of people who are kind of a sideshow, they are out of it. Do not do it.” And they said, “Fine, Mr. Secretary, your objections are noted, we are going ahead.” And he said, “Wait a minute, maybe I have not been eloquent enough.” And he argued with them. And they said, “Okay, you have had your say, shut up.” And he went back and argued again, at which point they fired him. They made him the ambassador to Australia and made and finished his career as the ambassador to the World Population Planning Council. They destroyed a man, they destroyed millions of men, by their acts. Where do you find forgiveness for this? Where do you find a little wiggle room for a man like Kissinger or Nixon? 1:16:39 SM: It is amazing through the actions of all these politicians. And the effect they had on the young people who were growing up at that time, not only veterans who fought in that war, and everybody who lived in saw the war was run was against the war. And, of course, the Civil Rights Movement was going on at that time, too, so cannot forget about that. But the lasting psychological impact of this has had on us as a nation as well as Senator Gaylord Nelson said, the body politic. And he said, I interviewed Gaylord Nelson, who was against the Vietnam War, one of the first senators and he said “He does not know anybody who walks around with lack of healing on their sleeve was a boomer about the Vietnam War. But he did say that that war destroyed the body politic. And it has never been the same sense. 1:17:35 JG: It has not, quite right. You know, if you have to go back in our history, the only other event as-as divisive and corrosive to the American way of governing and being governed the body politic, as the senator said, you go to the Civil War, and there is the same depth of division, anger and bitterness in Vietnam than there was in that. Excuse me. And I do not know, you still get in a pretty good fistfight down the south over the Civil War. And we are 120 years past it. So how long does Vietnam last? How long is it an influence in the life of this country? You know, it could be long past, our lifetimes, our lifespans, and probably will be. I participated in the making of a documentary film. We took a dozen Vietnam veterans back to Vietnam and walked our battlefield in the company. 1:19:01 SM: I saw that. 1:19:01 JG: The man who tried to kill us, but when they were doing in studio interviews, I met [inaudible] daughter was one of the people carrying [inaudible]. And she gave the story of her father and what his death in battle did to her life. And at some point, Forrest Sawyer said, “Well, the book has been written, it is this close the circle.” And she looked at him like he was crazy. She said, “The story is not over. It is not over as long as I draw breath. That war killed my father when I was 17 months old, and it will not be over for me during all my life, nor will it be over during the lives of my children. So how long do we reach out? How long does it go? 1:20:07 SM: Last name I have here is actually two of them. Your thoughts on Spiro Agnew and what he was doing back here as the vice president and Gerald Ford, the partner. 1:20:22 JG: Oh, Agnew. He was he was such an inconsequential person. You know, I do not even think about it. He just does not matter. He did not matter, then he does not matter now. He was not even a good puppet. Who else was it that you asked about? 1:20:53 SM: Gerald Ford. 1:20:54 JG: You asked Gerald Ford, Gerald Ford. You know? I thought Gerald Ford was good man. I thought he was probably the right guy to be the caretaker president after Nixon. I wish he had not given out any pardons. I think Nixon, Kissinger should have been in a cell right down the road from John Mitchell and the rest of those guys. But you know, there was a cartoon that somebody good drew the day that Ford left office. And it was maybe Herb Block, I do not know. But it was very interesting. What he did was he had Ford up a ladder cleaning the seal of the President of the United States wearing a painter's hat. And when he started this, he was encrusted with filth and grime and-and it had him finishing up it was, it was back in shape. It was looking pretty good. And I thought that was a pretty fair, pretty fair estimate. You know, you can just as you cannot say anything about Spiro Agnew, because he was inconsequential. You cannot really say much bad about Jerry Ford. He was decent. 1:22:41 SM: He was a bad golfer. 1:22:42 JG: He was a bad golfer, but a decent man, a decent human being. And have we had a Spiro Agnew as the successor to Nixon? I am not sure that we would be sitting in the United States of America, the place might have come a fight. 1:23:00 SM: It would have, they hated him on college campuses. With one quick question here today, two the interview, the Vietnam War ended. Why? 1:23:13 JG: Why did it end? 1:23:14 SM: Yeah, why did the Vietnam war end? 1:23:16 JG: Because the American people had had it right up to their epiglottis. They had it with the coffins coming home. They had had it with the lies of the politicians they had it with the body count. Hey, we won. Because we killed 10 of them for every American, they killed. It is not a bargain; the American people knew. They knew it was not a bargain. And-and they wanted, they wanted it stopped. Not for what the kids were doing in the streets but for what that war was doing to our country. It stopped because the American people stopped it. They did not want it anymore. 1:24:13 SM: There are two or two or three issues that define a generation. Boomers, I think historically will always be attached to the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights Movement, even though the Civil Rights Movement was really strong in the (19)50s and the early (19)60s. 1:24:29 JG: Yeah, exactly. I would say- 1:24:30 SM: And actually- 1:24:30 JG: They had less to do with the Civil Rights Movement. What that was, that was a- 1:24:37 SM: Is not it interesting though, that a lot of movements came about at the time of the Vietnam War, the Women's Movement came about at that time. Of course, the whole you know, what happened about the Vietnam Memorial now. We have got the nurses being recognized at the wall. There were so many, I mean, the Native American Movement, the Hispanic Movement, there were so many movements happening all at the same time. And they were all protesting against what was going on in America. But it is like- that protest mentality really came about because of the Vietnam War and a few of the things that were happening on college campus respect to administration and not being allowed to do political activities on campus. So, there were some things in school too. But what is the lasting legacy? What do you think the lasting legacy will be of the boomer generation who are now reaching 50? Do not forget, they are, they are 50 years old, or from 34 to 50 right now. 1:25:30 JG: Yeah, well, there is still time for him to get their shit together. There is still time for them to leave some kind of legacy dividends for the stockholders of the Volvo Motor Company you know, I read the financial papers and I see them talking about “Well, the Boomers did not, have not saved any money but that is okay. Because their mamas and daddies are dying now. And they are inheriting their money.” And thank God their mamas and daddies did save. Is thisthis what you are going to say at the end? Well, they-they inherited some money. So, they were able to live okay. Even though Social Security went down the tubes and so did Medicare. You know, they got to get their shit together and get to work and fulfill some of their promises. You want to you know, it. I am 55 now. And for the last five, six years, my thoughts have really turned to trying to leave a legacy of a little better world for my sons who are 16 and 18. I would really like them to inherit a kinder, gentler world. And I pray every day that they will never know war as I have known it. That they will never see a young man dying in their arms as I have and see the life flow out of him, and you are helpless to do anything. I do not want that for them. I do not want that for any son and any daughter in this country. So, you know, what I guess I am saying is that- very good friend of mine died about three years ago, a guy named B. T. Collins. He was a California politician. He had been Jerry Brown's Chief of Staff. He was Pete Wilson's great friend. Now if you can do those two things. He was also a double amputee, lost a leg and an arm in Vietnam with Special Forces. Had his 100 percent disability pension. He could have walked out of Valley Forge Hospital, a bitter-bitter man and never contributed anything. Instead, he went off to law school and spent what was left of his life really, working harder than any three men I knew toward healing the body politic. Toward helping the helpless toward making the system work. Now nothing wrong with that. Nothing to say that the boomers cannot do that. In fact, what I am saying is that they should, and they ought and if they want to leave a legacy somewhere beyond that is something more than the headlines, sex, drugs and rock and roll, then they got to bend down and do it. They picked up somewhere along the way a reputation for selfishness. And it started at the beginning. They were too good to go fight in this war. That was the work of poor people, the children of poor people and the disadvantaged. We have a president in the White House today said” I will not risk my viability as a politician in the future by going to Vietnam where I might get killed.” So, we have them, the worst of the yuppie movement. And it was pernicious and is. “He who dies with the most toys wins.” These are not legacies. These are things to overcome. And I do not mean get out there and hug trees. I mean, get out there and do something for people. 1:30:41 SM: Good point because we talked about the yuppies. They live in certain sections of cities, a lot of them are boomers. Yeah, one of the basic premises, if I remember correctly, and when I was in college, “Money does not matter.” I heard that over and over again, it is not about money. It is not about it yet. 1:31:01 JG: And there they are. 1:31:02 JG: Yeah, some of them are still “Money is not meant anything to me. I have stayed in higher education my whole life, because-because of what happened.” 1:31:08 JG: Good thing it does not mean anything to you. 1:31:10 SM: Yeah. 1:31:10 JG: Yeah. 1:31:11 SM: But I am guilty. We had Congressman Penny on our campus. And he said that “The boomers just do not save.” And he said, “You know, something, Steve?” He said that “ I have not saved either.” Remember, Congressman Penny, you left a couple of years ago, a Democrat from Minnesota. He, he is not poor by any means. But I am saying he is raising five kids. And he says, “I am just part of the legacy. I do not save either.” And so, there is some truth to that. Nope, they do not save. 1:31:35 JG: They do not save. 1:31:45 SM: As if there is no tomorrow. And I do not know if that says something about the boomers that “I am going to live for today. Because there is no tomorrow,” I do not know. So. 1:31:45 JG: Well, then you get to be over 50. You better rethink your position. 1:31:51 SM: The last question, I am going to ask then we will be finished here. I might go over into the next little section here in the tape, that is getting back to the wall. In 1982, I think it was (19)82 for the opening? Are you pleased with what the wall has done for America? Not the Vietnam veterans now what it has done for America as a whole? Because it is pretty well known fact that anybody who comes to that wall, whether they were in the war, family members of someone who served in that war, or someone who died in that war, or someone who remembers their college experience during that war, or if they were working in a factory during the war, and did not go to college, all those flashbacks of where I was, come back, and then then the little kids are right there. And they say to their dad or mom, “Dad, what did you do?” Kids will always ask those kinds of questions. And I am wondering that-that is what it means to me. I have to keep going back because when I was a college student, you know, I guess there might be some sort of guilt that I wish I had served, but I could not serve because I had a severe asthma. And, and it was 1970. And I was in the hospital during the Cambodia invasion. I was graduating in 1970 at State University in New York at Binghamton. And I broke my arm and it was a very serious arm break, and I almost had it amputated and I was in the operating room for five hours, about two weeks before graduation. And everybody in my whole family was in the hospital and the Cambodian invasion was happening, April 30. That was April 30, 1970. I was in the hospital for two straight weeks, two days before I went under graduation. It was a magic moment for me, because the doctor who came in and after he had operated and saved my arms. And he said, “I wish they would shoot all those damn kids; I wish they would kill them all.” And I said, “As a college senior, who saw the tremendous divisions in America, I want to do something in my own small way to bring people back together again. So, I get real emotional about the Vietnam War, even though I did not serve because I care about Vietnam veterans. I have been working with them in Philadelphia since 1983. So, when I worked with him on the wall in Philadelphia, and we help raise money, it is a long story. But I wanted to do something in my own small way. As I said this to Jan once too. And I really said it to Lewis, when we took our students to the wall, to try to do the next phase to assist the process that began at the wall. And that is to write some sort of a book about this very complex era, in this very complex time. Pick some of the best people in America and ask them the tough questions and just let them reveal so that we can kind of heal as a nation, even beyond the Vietnam veterans. And I actually have an ultimate goal beyond this. The ultimate goal is I have been thinking that I may even go to Oliver Stone because I know Robert Groden, who was a consultant with the movie JFK, to get financial backing to bring to the university campuses of America and maybe to the town halls of America in two years, symposiums over a nine-month period, one per period, bringing back those who were for and against the war, people who serve in the war, just to try to bring them together to try to understand. Almost like the Jimmy Carter concept when he does have the Carter Center to bring the sides back. Just do something to help and assist. And I always quote in my own small way. So, my final question is-is this such an effort worthy of the effort number one? And just your overall thoughts, again, the overall impact that the wall has had on America beyond the veterans, because I know what-what the effect is had on the veterans? 1:35:56 JG: Well, it reaches far beyond the veterans for the simple reason that that I saw someone did an estimate that there are 40 million Americans who have some personal connection to a name in the wall. They were a college classmate, or- 1:36:17 SM: Me, too. 1:36:17 JG: They were a high school classmate, or you know, an in law, a sibling, whatever. 40 million Americans care about at least one of those names on that wall. So, they care about all of them. And what has its impact. The other thing that is operating there, and operated, you know, when they were doing the welcome home parades for the Gulf veterans, and they went far overboard and out of proportion in doing this, and I, you know, a lot of my friends called up and said, “I think I am angry about this.” And I said, “Do not do that. Because what they are doing is they are overcompensating because they did nothing for you. So, this is as much for you as it is for them. And so, you go on down to the parade. And, and you watch because this is America saying 20 years too late. Welcome home all of you. Welcome Home Vietnam veterans too.” And that was the way it worked in the parades. The young troops would reach and pull the veterans off of the curbs and into the parade. So, my counsel was “Let go of the bitterness, it is misplaced. The American people know what they did not do. And they are ashamed of it”. And the thing is where we come to, is that here we have a country where only three million win. And today, I would bet you that out there in the land, there are 10 million wannabes who are pretending that they did go. 1:38:32 SM: Really? 1:38:32 JG: What does this say? 1:38:34 SM: There are those types of people that say they are a veteran. 1:38:37 JG: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Any number of them. We detect them all the time. And then- 1:38:45 SM: That is the worst. 1:38:46 JG: That is, in our view, imitation is not any sincere form of flattery, but-but here today in this country, there are a lot of people who pretend to be Vietnam veterans. Now, this is not a sea change of attitude. I do not know what is. 1:39:09 SM: I had never heard that before. 1:39:12 JG: Oh, there are guys who specialize in debunking these frauds. And they turn up in amazing places, not a federal judge, but a high-ranking judge in Chicago, was presenting himself as a Vietnam veteran and Medal of Honor recipient and got an AO. 1:39:33 SM: People do not speak- 1:39:38 JG: The publisher of The Arizona Republic, Dan Quayle’s family newspaper, presented himself as a Vietnam veteran fighter pilot. False, got caught, got fired. 1:39:54 SM: Put it on the resume and the whole- 1:39:56 JG: Yeah. 1:39:56 SM: Oh my goodness. 1:39:57 JG: Yeah, politicians do it all the time. But worse, yet you have the guys who put on the kameez and put on medals to which they are not entitled, and-and go around presenting themselves and their opinions as those of Vietnam veterans. But what a distance we have come. 1:40:16 SM: Gosh. Yeah. 1:40:20 JG: To put Vietnam veteran on your resume would have been a guarantee 20 years ago- 1:40:25 SM: No job. 1:40:26 JG: That you were not going to get that job. 1:40:27 SM: That is amazing. Yeah, I just go to the wall. I have gone now seven times. And I call Jan's office and I get the pass. I take students there now. I am probably going to take some students there on Memorial Day, this next year, because we graduate late, I took three to Veterans Day last year. And I took students to meet- 1:40:46 JG: You have got to watch them. They have got a lot of frauds down there. 1:40:49 SM: Oh, at the, at the ceremonies themselves? 1:40:52 JG: Oh yeah, the wall. A couple of- three years ago, up turns a young lady, quite striking and attractive, who said that she was the daughter of Oliver Stone’s Sergeant Elias. And Sergeant Elias’s name is indeed on the wall. And she came to a meeting of the sons and daughters, the organization for children of men who were killed in Vietnam. Told her long and sad story and went down to the wall and full Apache regalia and did the burning of the feathers and all of this crap and-and I think she even made it onto the platform the year, the year after, and then shortly thereafter, it was discovered that the whole tale was just that, a tale. 1:41:52 SM: Oh my God. 1:41:54 JG: So, this is one more strange story in a town full of them. 1:42:02 SM: My goodness. I see a lot of people there every year. It is packed every year. I see the people talking, "Where did you serve," and everything. And they ask me. And everybody asks every time I sit there, except when I was with the students, they knew I brought students. And I said, "I did not serve." But I know back in 1983, when I first came to Philadelphia from California because I worked out there at another university, that I got to know the Vietnam veterans. Because we were going to do a program on the posttraumatic stress disorder with Dr. Harry Schwartz, who was at Jefferson Medical School. And I got to know Harry Gaffney and Dan Fraley, and Dennis Best, some of the Vietnam veterans are well known in Philadelphia who did the markings. And Harry said, "Steve, I am going to tell you right now, you are not one of us." But you have to gain the trust of the Vietnam Veterans. So, all the people that I invited, I met with 20 of the top Vietnam veterans, Wally Nunn, CEO in Philadelphia who was close to, I forget who it is, Mayor Rendell, whatever. But I had to be very open and at the outset, that I did not serve, and I told them why. And they said that was very important, first, to be honest, and open, and upfront about it. And then, the second thing is to try to put this program together and to show you care. And so, what we did, we did that program. And I got it on tape, too. It was a very good program. But it got to be so darn political, because Don Bailey would not shake the hands of the Vietnam veterans that were there, who worked so hard on the Wall. And I could not believe that here is a guy, a Purple Heart winner, and Don Bailey was a Purple Heart winner, yet he refused to go up into the room with Harry and Dan. And I could not understand the bitterness there when all they cared about was creating that Wall in Philadelphia. And I do not know if you have been to the Wall in Philly, but it is a beautiful wall. They have had a lot of problems with graffiti. People try to destroy. There is a lot of roadblocks to getting that property as well. Of course, Edison High School has the most people who died in the Vietnam War. So, it is a- 1:44:03 JG: A good guy you may want to go to go look up. I am reading the story. Someone handed it to me at the wall. It is a Denver Post story about a Vietnam veteran. He was one of McNamara's Project, 100,000 guys. These are the people where they went out and they lowered the standards. So, they were taking people with an IQ of 60 and below and making drafting them and making them soldiers and sending to Vietnam where they died at a rate three times higher than the average draftee. This is by way of they said, "Bootstrapping. We are going to help these guys out of poverty and out of the inner city. So, we are going to send them to the army." Well, this guy out in Pueblo, Colorado is one of those guys. And he is 100 percent disabled, unable to work. Launched a personal campaign five years ago, basically around the malls and the grocery stores with a can collecting dimes, and quarters, and dollars to build a Memorial. 1:45:23 SM: In Denver? 1:45:23 JG: Stones in Pueblo. 1:45:25 SM: Oh Pueblo, okay. 1:45:26 JG: With the 680 names of the Coloradoans killed in Vietnam, and this guy is barely functional, but he managed to go around to companies and get them to agree to help. He got someone to agree to engrave the names, somebody else to donate the stone. He went to the city council and made a presentation and got them to cough up 15 grand and bang they dedicated it last two weeks ago. 1:45:55 SM: An article in the Denver Post? 1:46:00 JG: Yeah, and on the day, they dedicated the Veterans Administration cut his pension in half because if he could do such a project surely, he could do a job too. 1:46:12 SM: Is that where we are today? 1:46:13 JG: Is that where we are today? You bet your ass. 1:46:17 SM: Yeah, I have got to get a copy. Do you know who? Is it the Denver Post of- 1:46:20 JG: Denver Post- 1:46:22 JG: People probably know by calling to get the- 1:46:23 JG: Call him. They got it. 1:46:27 SM: Any other lasting words of advice? Any thoughts on the boomer generation? 1:46:32 JG: No. I will let what you have got stand. I probably said too much too bluntly. 1:46:38 SM: No-no, that is what I wanted. 1:46:38 JG: And all I do is say what is in my heart. 1:46:41 SM: When I met with Jack Smith, I asked him “Who should I interview?” And he-he just said one name, you. That is unbelievable. 1:46:51 JG: Jack is a wonderful man. I do not know how he retained his sanity going through what he went through. I went through some stuff but nothing like that stuff. 1:47:09 SM: Yeah, he is, he is unbelievable. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph Lee Gallaway Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gallaway, Joseph Lee ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource War correspondents; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 -- Journalists; Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988 -- Journalists; Iraq War, 2003-2011 -- Journalists; Authors; Gallaway, Joseph Lee--Interviews Description An account of the resource Joseph Lee Gallaway is a veteran war correspondent and an author. In his writing, Galloway covered conflicts all across the world, including the Vietnam War, the first Persian Gulf War, and the Iraq War. He is the co-author of the Vietnam War book <em>We Were Soldiers Once... and Young</em>, which was later adapted into a movie, <em>We Were Soldiers</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-11-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.5a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.5b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 107:13 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/36442a9eeae91fecf5114d691b595705.jpg 29e1a602ee6115d8311087f606dfa258 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/71cf4fbac027db2f632143620b28443d.mp3 79aaa1991cd1dbcac5aec5c763534fdb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1996-11-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fred Grandy, 1948- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Fred Grandy is an actor and politician. Grandy is well known for his role as \&quot;Gopher\&quot; on the sitcom The Love Boat. He was elected congressman for Iowa’s Sixth District from 1987 to1995. In 1997, he became president and CEO of Goodwill Industries. He served as a speechwriter for various shows and hosted radio talk shows. Grandy received his Bachelor's degree in English from Harvard University and Master's degree from the Washington Shakespeare Theatre and George Washington University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5039,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Fred Grandy is an actor and politician. Grandy is well known for his role as "Gopher" on the sitcom <em>The Love Boat</em>. He was elected congressman for Iowa’s Sixth District from 1987 to1995. In 1997, he became president and CEO of Goodwill Industries. He served as a speechwriter for various shows and hosted radio talk shows. Grandy received his Bachelor's degree in English from Harvard University and Master's degree from the Washington Shakespeare Theatre and George Washington University.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Feminism; Baby boom generation; Television; Activism; Vietnam Memorial; Civil War; Civil Rights Movement; Veterans Day; Robert McNamara; Generation Gap; Vietnam War. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Feminism; Baby boom generation; Television; Activism; Vietnam Memorial; Civil War; Civil Rights Movement; Veterans Day; Robert McNamara; Generation Gap; Vietnam War. </span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:47 Subject LCSH Actors; Love boat (Television program); Legislators—United States; Grandy, Fred, 1948--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Fred Grandy Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 18 November 1996 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): And I will double check here. Recently, within the past couple years, there has been a lot of criticism of the era of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and for example- Speaker 2 (00:00:15): Peggy Archer, please call the operator. Peggy Archer, please dial the operator. SM (00:00:20): Part of the criticism is saying the breakdown of the American family, the increase of drug usage, a lot of the things that are the breakdown in America today are geared right back to the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and thus a lot of the young people of the Boomer generation. Could you comment if that is really a fair analysis of the Boomers and that generation? FG (00:00:42): I want to go back to what the analysis of the Boomers was, that somehow this is a misguided or failed movement? SM (00:00:50): Well, Boomers are the young people that were reared right after the war. And certainly within the Boomer generation there is a difference too. But they were in college, they were involved in a lot of the movements at that time, the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. The protests on college campuses, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, even the Chicano movement. A lot of the movements happened at that time. So when we see a lot of critical analysis today of America and the wrongs of America, a lot of them are pointing fingers right back to that era. FG (00:01:19): Oh, I see. SM (00:01:20): And I would like to know what your thoughts are on that. FG (00:01:23): Well, I guess I qualify as an early Boomer because I was born in 1948 and was participating, although perhaps not as [inaudible] as some of my classmates in school during my... I think what is frequently left out of these retrospective criticisms of the (19)60s and what is called the Spock Mark Generation, that is quite the phrase, although I found it somewhat repugnant. The fact of the matter is, this was, I think, a kind of golden era of progressivity in American politics and culture and social change. Net impact of this generation is that they looked at the thinking of this country. They certainly heightened awareness. They heightened awareness about American foreign involvement and what the real role of American... And I think it is safe to say that that generation ended the Vietnam War or certainly provided the catalyst to end the Vietnam War. In terms of sheer output, in terms of sheer accomplishment, find me another generation since that can make those kinds of claims. There is not. The late booming generation of the people that were born in the late (19)50s, early (19)60s, that supposedly technically qualifying in your analysis, in your survey, have they upon reaching their legal maturity, their late adolescence, their legal maturity, cohered into a group and created a kind of national consciousness raising? I do not think so. I would like to know what they have done. My view is that this is a group that is much more narcissistic and much less altruistic. Now having said all that, I think we sometimes became infatuated with our progressivity and with our idealism and to some degree did not stay on the case. We created, I think, or participated in an awakening of civil rights injustices, participated in what was probably the incipient movement towards feminism and consciousness raising for women to a lesser degree, gays and lesbians. But I do not think we accomplished the change there that we did with the war in Vietnam because you still have a rift in thinking about civil rights. Women you can say are more accepted at all levels of society, but I assume they are motivated by a gender movement as opposed to a generation. The Baby Boomers, to some degree, lost steam as a movement when they graduated and got a life. And I think the fact that they were so aggressive, so in your face, in some cases, so over the top, it was a movement that was defined by extremism, not by its center, that we lost credibility over time. And then it began to trickle out into these kinds of, I think in many ways, Aersot's consciousness raising movements like Guest and Scientology and a lot of things that basically were I think sanctified leads to narcissism. Lost our sense of a cohesive society and became more involved with our own success or failure within that society and the movement began. In a way, I equate the generation of the (19)60s, at least the early Boomers, with their motivations and commitment to the changing of country. The generation that entered World War II, they were conscripted. But I still think there would have been an enormous, and there was, an enormous outpouring of volunteerism into a kind of national goal. And really the only example of a national goal I have seen since Vietnam, was the rallying behind our efforts. And that was almost over before it began, it stayed for a while. Well, I guess wistfully, I look back and say, I wish we had a movement in this country that was causing the kind of social cohesion that we had back then. It was controversial. It pitted parents against their sons and daughters, a very political time. But the balance, I think the dividends were pretty positive. I have to give that generation, not just because [inaudible]. SM (00:06:33): I am going to check this. When you look at the critics today of that era, you do not agree with them in terms of- FG (00:06:45): Well, they tend to stress the excesses rather than the successes. There was another element though that I think cannot be left out of this discussion. This generation matured as a political force [inaudible] with the health of a tool that was maturing as a force itself and that was television. I am not sure you would have had one without the other. The ability to see these kids on TV, to basically broadcast and transcribe and transmit, really aided and abetted by a broadcast media that war of its capability. Obviously, through the (19)68, Kent State, places like that. And again, the serendipity of the awakening of this generation as a political force, the awakening of the media, a conduit for that force, but whatever it was, it provided that generation, I think, other the generations of either not taking advantage of or have not been able to take advantage of because now it is second nature. Inundated with information now, back in days it was exciting and you watched your television and you were not grazing... The focus, there was a kind of serendipity of focus that allowed our generation to perhaps get away with more than we should have. And I think what the critics now do is basically talk about the stuff we got [inaudible]. There was mischief, there was immaturity, there was a pandering to us. Clearly the media, I mean the media is struck gold with this generation. Having said all that, there is I think a forgotten heroism of this group. I do not see in present generations the desire to be part of a society as opposed to an individual player within it or in spite of it. This television changed... Happened to be back at Harvard a few years ago and of course Harvard was one [inaudible] student. Talking to some people at the Kennedy... About the time Robert Kennedy cranked this thing up. Now it kind of toddles along as a think tank and convener of seminars, but the problem is it does not act as a magnet now in discussion. You have got Asian Americans, you have got gay and lesbian Americans, you have got Harvard students who are interested in the collapse of the Soviet Union, it is back to being kind of an adjunct of academia as controlled [inaudible] of social discussion. [inaudible] kids do not get out of school and say, what kind of service do you want to want to fulfill before I go? SM (00:09:54): I want to check with... You have already reiterated some of the points in terms of the most positive qualities that you saw in the Boomers in terms of their activism and so forth. When you look... Have you changed your views over the last 25 years? When you were a young person and of course one of the characteristics of the Boomer generation is the late time we were going to change the world or we are the most unique generation in American history because we can do anything. We can stop the war Vietnam, we can hop out with the civil rights movement and all other movements are started. So there was a feeling that you can be change agents for the betterment of society, but you already reiterated as people got older, a lot of people as they had the job market, but they have the realities of raising a family and so forth and maybe there is still a few that are still idealists out there doing the thing they did 25 years ago, but it is in a minority. When you look at the Boomers again, what are the strengths, the weaknesses? Were they very positive for America in the long run and what are the things you most admire and things that you least admire? FG (00:11:10): Well, what I admired the most was the enthusiasm and the almost missionary zeal to exchange. What I admired the least was the frequent amount of self-awareness and self-serving and ego-driven activity that became, I think the product of that and probably an inevitable one. And that to they also kind of suppose inevitable swelling of the ego as the media began to embrace this movement as the new relative change. I mean I do not think there is a generation anywhere that has not thought of itself as the foremost generation of its era. I do not think you can not feel that. I remember actually saying that when I was a young, I guess I was a senior at Harvard or something, I mentioned to a professor of government named Louis Harts who was a guy who was basically taught about American government and democracy, good teacher, [inaudible] but anyway, I managed to try out on him this idea of being a unique generation. He came out of the depression and lived through World War. You have not lived through major depression, you do not know what it is to be in the bread line, blah-blah-blah. So historically, I do not think that really is important where we actually place on the spectrum of how unique we were. The fact was that we were able to kind of galvanize ourselves and create a movement that although it was kind of [inaudible] and in some cases and in other cases sometimes pernicious, on balance was a laudable effort and all of the people that I know now back upon that as a time when they were to some degree freed from the daily banality of earning a living and raising a family and mortgage payments or reconciling two income kind of commitment. That may just be a function of youth, but the interesting... This particular generation of youth had such more common goal in collective mission than the youth today does, which is seems to be much more individually oriented. And... SM (00:13:53): Yeah, I am from that era too. One of the common characteristics was the concept of passion. FG (00:13:59): Yes. SM (00:14:00): You got involved in issues, you were passionate about the issues. You really did care. It was not just a community case of altruism, it was just, I really do care. FG (00:14:08): Now, there was more passion than there was reason. I look back on some of the efforts that we before and had indicated for, and now that I have actually been in government and sat on the other side of some of those policymaking decisions as a public official, I can see that the pace at which we insisted on change was a much more accelerated rate than the country ever could have been doing. The converse of that is true now is that we are probably moving too slowly now and that we to some degree, I think go down to a snail’s pace because we are almost, I think, at this point victimized by our own success is that essential embodiment of capitalism and democracy and personal freedom, and there is really not much to complain about. As the last election indicated. I know from a corporate point of view now that the best time to fix the roof is when the sun is shining and the tree that is I think somewhat complacent without crisis and that is somewhat vulcanized by its lack of universal purpose. But when it happens we tend to push ourselves in matters that deal with the nation. You can see that now in this is a nation that in 30 years has gone from being very internationally and globally focused to one that really could not care less about foreign loss because we are lulled into a sense of security now that the Soviet Union does not seem to show up on our screen. The things that we would... There is there is a lack, I think, of awareness to the global position, which was not true when I was brought up. We were obviously focused on Vietnam, but at the same time, Harvard was ginning out reams of activity against the war. Were also forcing the university to divest of its holdings in South Africa, the Harvard corporation held that had investments, low engagement, you do not see as much of that. SM (00:16:48): One of the comments that I try to raise with each of our guests is to look at the voting record of the Boomers and the voting record of their kids, which are now today's college age students. And to me it is a tremendous disappointment when you look at the voting records of Boomers as well as their kids, and here is a generation that was so committed to a lot of things and certainly the vote was something that he strove for and everything. I remember my first vote was 1968. I remember voting for Hubert Humphreys, my first vote, but what is the responsibility of the Boomers and how have they been raising their kids? In terms of, I think, this past election it was Bill Clinton won with a 23.7 percent of the electorate and only 48.6 or something like that voted. The voting trends continue to go down. This is the worst voting year in many, many years. Your thoughts on how the Boomers have been raising their kids in looking at the voting records of both groups? FG (00:17:47): I do not think the Boomers have insisted on the same passion and commitment or progeny that they insisted on in themselves probably because they are sadder and wiser and possibly a little bit of disillusionment has set in. Leave us not forget that the last chapter of Vietnam or the enthusiasm of the Boomers was not the fall of Saigon. It was probably the fall of the Nixon government. It was the collapse of confidence in government institutions and it is pretty hard now to find people of my era who will rigorously get up and defend every paragraph and subparagraph of the war on poverty, which is clearly a war that we lost. So the strategy somehow went awry and it was I think a collective withdrawal from public debate, which has now translated into the way we raise our kids. We are writing my kids a letter, my oldest daughter is apparently, but in 1991 when the balloon went up, so to speak, it occurred to me that my children had no knowledge of the war. They had no knowledge of risk for a nation. I had done nothing really, and I did not feel the need to do anything to apprise them of what it meant for this nation to be a war, to have various threat all, although it is a kind of little tinpot desperate over on the other side of the world, this was serious business. Personal delegation. I knew the guy's capabilities in terms of hardware alone, let alone his own... And I was not completely convinced that anything I had ever said or done could prepare these two children for the consequences of a war. Now, happily, that war did not have consequences beyond those that were in the aftermath of the chemical involvement in that war, which was not clearly [inaudible]. But would have never had to write a letter like that. My father had, he lived, would not have needed to write a letter like that to me in 1968. I had a better understanding of risk and dreams and losses, and I think the Boomers, once they started becoming parents, like most parents, tended to protect their children from the downside and the cynical side of the world as they saw it, maybe they had become sadder and wiser and maybe they did not think that their change was really lasting when they saw the Nixon government go up in smoke and out by various other scams. I have had great liberal impulse now kind of congealing into a rather stale bureaucracy that was spending more money than it could ever take in. So all lessons that I think have changed this generation from its original ideas. SM (00:21:14): Through the issues that is paramount to this project. It was about with was the concept of healing. That whole situation that I explained early on with Senator Musky was just one of the examples. Another one was I used to work at Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia and we had a panel with our top Vietnam veterans who put together memorial in Philly, Dr. Zuckerman, a well-known historian from Penn and Don Bailey, who was the Republican auditor general for the state of Pennsylvania. As the person who was just doing a program post-traumatic stress disorder, it became much bigger than just talking about the medical illnesses of our Vietnam veterans. He came to that event and refused to sit down with Vietnam veterans who were involved with Memorial and Philadelphia. So even though it was a non-political statement, he would not shake hands with them? FG (00:22:03): No-no. SM (00:22:06): This was Don Bailey, the auditor general of Pennsylvania around 1985 when they had this program at Jefferson and at that time again, it was just another member of the tremendous divisions over this war, even within the Vietnam veteran community. FG (00:22:20): And the guys that were involved in the memorial had attend, attended to what? SM (00:22:25): Well, they were just there to talk about the historical aspects of the war. FG (00:22:29): But were they tended to be vets who supported the US involvement in Vietnam- SM (00:22:35): Actually, they were split. I think there were some that were for and some that were against. It was a potpourri of mixed, it was mixed. Don Bailey was there just because he was, I guess upset with the Dutch Zuckerman, the historian who protested against the war and he was for the war and he was a Purple Heart and he said he felt we were treated poorly and he was one of the few people that was against the building of the memorial in Philadelphia. It was amazing because he thought it was a political statement. FG (00:23:02): No, I think that at least as I look at the aftermath of the war, if you factor out the public policy question of whether we should have been there in the first place, and the following question is whether we stayed too long and squandered assets, human and [inaudible], you still have the question of did we as a nation dishonor the people that served there and who did so because they thought they were committing an honorable act by obeying their call to go to service? If there is healing left, it is there. It is how we treated that era of vets because you got fairly prominent vets in this United States Center. Two of them are named Carrie, right, that were military heroes and [inaudible] critics of the war. You have got guys like John McCain that were prisoners of war, but I do not see him as some kind of defender of America's Southeast Asia policy in the late (19)60s. The real question is whether or not we pay tribute to a generation of mostly young men, got some young women, who got caught up in a political maelstrom and were essentially sacrificed to a bogus cause and some rebelled at the time, and some just put their heads down and did their job. Interestingly enough, the enthusiasm and support for American troops going into the Gulf acted as a home found for Vietnam vet groups that were to some degree vindicated by an American public that was finally acknowledging that it is important to bring what you believe in and that the use of force is not always a bad thing. A lot of these things got merged in the Vietnam question. It almost became that all American use of force is imperialistic and bad and a powerful military is merely a capitalist tool and a lot of, I think, notions wrapped up into the Vietnam War were over time, I think dispelled. The veteran groups themselves, because I am not a member of them. I do not know... It is hard to know what the level of post-traumatic stress will be in these generations, but I do not see us as a nation divided over our role in Vietnam civil rights. That is not where I think the healing needs to take place. SM (00:26:15): For example, that within a generation when Senator Musky talked about the fact that most of the people after the Civil War went to their graves with no healing and still hatred toward each other, even though there were things happening in Gettysburg ceremonies bringing back both sides, that many people in our generation... Some people have told me, Steve, you cannot win in this process, you cannot heal 60 million plus people and Vietnam veterans have their own healing, but there are still, I sense, still tremendous divisions between those people who fought the war, those people who were against the war and should not any effort be made to bring them together to try to create a better understanding that because of the passions of the time, that is the way they acted out their feelings. But that still, it was never against the Vietnam veteran. It was always against the government policymakers and to try to bring people together who were on both sides of the issue. That is where I thought when the Senator Musky the divisions within America, people go to their graves without any healing and now we have a possible another generation where there is no healing people going to their graves with still bitterness. I do not know. This gets beyond civil rights because I think you are exactly right about civil rights, the division is there, but still over Vietnam, I have gone to the wall the last four memorial days. I was at Veteran's Day on Monday. I have tried to get a feel and the hatred that still happens between those who oppose the war and those who have served is present. FG (00:27:53): Who is there a hater or a hatee at this point or is it mutual? I mean, is it on afar with the Serbians and the Bosnians in terms of the source of the animosity is almost lost in the intensity of it. SM (00:28:14): Again, I know that the wall's goal has been to heal the Vietnam veterans and their families. I think it is done a great job. I think Jan Scruggs and the memorial is right on there, but the healing is still not there because for example, they will make commentaries about Bill Clinton. I have talked to some of them. Many hate Bill Clinton because he did not serve and many do not... Jane Fonda and those people that were in Hanoi. So I sense it is still there that they have healed somewhat, but they are never going to heal toward those who hold- FG (00:28:46): See I see Jane Fonda and that movement, the people that were actively looking in an alliance with the NLF, there is an extreme fringe that did not define in any way, shape or form the spectrum of criticism of people. That is why I think that level of [inaudible] you are still talking about, that lack of healing, I think is happening more at the margins than in the center. A little of misunderstanding and denial about the lack of progress over civil rights is still very much very central issue. I was not sitting there with Edward Musky when he broke into tears, but if this is a guy that is replaying the Civil War, given his history, I would have to think about was the level of hatred that still exists between race and regions, and sometimes the legislative initiatives will change the concepts of the country. Principally the southeast become probably more progressive just by the nature of their economic growth as opposed to their cultural political growth but you still have these divides and that is still troubling. The Vietnam thing, I mean, I do not know how you ever make that hole because now you are almost down into a kind of reading exercise where you have to go back and relive all those hurts on a case level. There is no question that a tremendous injustice was perpetrated against a lot of soldiers that were over there. A guy that worked for me in my district when I was first offices and the guy was basically, he had been a grocer in a small town, without the need to become involved in politics at a kind of customer level, constituent level because although he had been in the military, he was one of those guys who were in the early (19)70s, this would have been the early (19)70s, he was on his way to Vietnam as a door gunner, which was the highest level of casualty of all of the professions that he could... His orders were cut, and he was sent somewhere. My impression from his discussions was my life was saved for some reason, and I do not know. This guy is not in any way a [inaudible] on the war or against the war. He was just one of those... He was just one of these mainstream Americans that reached draft age and went into the lottery and said, well, that is it. I am going. I got to do something. He did not come from any privilege or special status so that he could wangle his way out of the draft. So consequently, he was on his way and then it did not happen, and in retrospect, he said, I got to do something because my military service was essentially... I was able to avoid the contract, possibly serious. I cannot help... I think that there are a lot of people that came home and wanted to start over, although they might have a certain reverence and wastefulness, and I do not sense that vendetta. I may not be close enough to it. I do not participate in veterans’ groups, but there were a lot of vets in congress when I was there, and there were a lot of people that opposed the war too. For every Bob Dornan or Ron Dellums who might have represented two political extremes, there was a huge middle of people that had just kind of come to a quiet conclusion about what Nam was or was not and how we proceeded... SM (00:32:53): Were able to state emphatically that the student movement on college campuses is the main reason why the Vietnam War ended. In your opinion, why did the Vietnam war end and who were the people most responsible for ending it? FG (00:33:11): Well, I think, as I said, again, there was this serendipity of focus from students who opposed the war, and let us face it, these kids were at risk because they were the ones that were going out and peopling the escalation of the war, for the Tonkin golf resolution. A lot more kids were sent over. And that coupled with a national broadcast media that was beginning to understand its power, not just to record events, but perhaps influenced them themselves created a very powerful wedge from the American consciousness is to say that that guys like Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman and Tom Hayden and Mario Savio and others brought the war to a close. I think the one person that we have to thank for ending the war in Vietnam is Ho Chi Minh. He had a strategy for winning the war, and we did not. We had a strategy for engaging enemy and that strategy with the best and the brightest that began with the Kennedy administration and then was taken over by the inheritors of that responsibility administration, did not know what they were up against, did not have a strategy, took a military engagement, turned it into a political contest and it will be sustained. They were not going to commit the resources to win the war. Did not know how to fight. They did not know how to engage. There was no statement that people could understand. I would have to say that Lyndon Johnson, by his lack of understanding in Ho Chi Minh by his complete understanding are probably have more responsible for ending the war than Richard Nixon or Henry Kissinger, or... Well, you sat around the peace table in Paris who actually into... There was a myth about American might already unraveled by the time Kennedy sent the group into that had changed in such a way that we did. We were basically fighting military engagement using tactics that we probably employed in World War II, and for all I know Korea. Oh, it was... Forget the strategy for them. It was a tactical disaster, and of course that eroded confidence within the rank and file of the military, and that had to be terribly frustrating, particularly for those people that were the door gunners or the second Luis that were running those platoons up the hill. This is where I think our real collapse in government as a chameleon that Kennedy had kind really developed. SM (00:36:35): And the next question that is one of the unfortunate results of the Vietnam War was the lack of trust. Was under the leadership and not being told the truth on television in terms of body counts. I mean I read McNamara's book in retrospect and all the things that were going on then, and then of course that led it into Watergate, and so this business of trust to me is a very serious issue in America today, and it directly goes back to that era. As a person who is really committed to public service, which you are doing here, not only here at Goodwill, but certainly United States Congress and working for others and constituencies, how do we get back the trust that is been lost in government because people do not want to serve. I know students today on college campus, only 18... Latest statistics in the Chronicle higher education at 18.5 percent have an interest in politics, but they do want to volunteer with 85 percent caring about volunteer activities. So it directly goes back to the sense, well, I am not empowered. I really have no interest. My vote does not count. The Boomers who did not have trust, saw that concept of trust lack thereof in their elected officials and policies and being lied to, and now that is probably carried down into their kids. So I know you probably do not have an answer, but how do we get back the trust? FG (00:38:05): Well, first of all, it is not that we have lost trust. It is that we have defined the standard progressively downward probably from Vietnam through Watergate, through Irangate, Iran [inaudible] the present occupant of the White House has done nothing to kind of trust in public officials, but the guy was reelected handsomely enough so that people almost factor that in and they say, forget what the guy says, let us just watch what he does, and if the minimum raise... The economy remains solid. I do not feel particularly threatened in my workplace... That I am going to be drafted and sent to some forsaken place on the planet. My politicians are not that important to me. The answer to this question really is mercurial because this is really a discussion about leadership. Who are the leaders out there that can make us really the major questions affecting our age truth among other things, different racial gaps that are now developing widening over public spending, ongoing schizophrenia over... For reform as long as we do not have to change anything, our desire for expanding public benefits and lower taxes, I mean, we are still, although the Cold War is over and Cold Warriors are gone, we still have, at least in our political classes right now, the apostles of the Cold War myth that we can be all things to all people at home and abroad, and that there is no real day of reckoning and that should we confront the [inaudible] of middle-class entitlements. It just makes for friction, your father, we have just been through that. You would have thought perhaps a third party might be able to capture this new consciousness. I think the American people are very realistic about these things and have just basically withdrawn from the rest of their lives culminating about campaign finance reform. I am just cannot save my money. The real problem with government right now is not that it is becoming irresponsible, but it is becoming... People are saying to perform public service, I do not have to be in public office. I do not need to be on a public payroll. Right now, I am part of a group, the Goodwill being one of the largest human service agencies in the United States, along with Red Cross and Salvation Army and Boys Clubs and others are actively sitting down with groups like the National Corporation [inaudible] America Group and of [inaudible] Life Foundation and talking about whether or not we need to create a kind of ad-on service, what it means to be a volunteer, to basically focus on and sense private civilian environment as an alternative to... This became an alternative to politics. I will shed Mary a tear. Say, well, that will just leave you with a bunch of threats to run. But what will happen over time is your political jobs will [inaudible]. A lot of this will really, I think, be fixed or changed or modified at least by a new generation of leaders that can actually make us want to confront the truth about our... Grow with the inevitable personal and public sacrifice that it will take to kind of... Sacrifice is not something that either our public institutions or their counterparts in the media are set up to do. The whole era, the following from the Vietnam War and the participation with television and sources of media has been more promising and more promises shattered and more illusions and more illusions dashed. So I think what we have done is we have created a generation of Americans that not only like to be lied to, they expect it. You cannot ask a politician to not be a politician. I have always got [inaudible] why are there no more... Why are not politicians’ states being [inaudible] I am not sure if there are any... Are ex politicians for a variety of reasons. In a country like this with freedom of speech, movement and basically... People like to be pandered to, they like the salesman telling them that these products are better than any they ever had. So that is kind of the dark side of a pre-market society, but I am seriously talking about changing that. SM (00:43:38): It is a really good point because today college students, when you talk about leadership, it is like it is going in one ear and out the other. The term that seems to be most applicable. Now, to them, that raises their ears as citizenship because we have had a leadership program where students meet leaders and they are excited, but they get thrilled when they have an opportunity of the concept of citizenship or they see that it is the local communities now or though- FG (00:44:02): [inaudible]. SM (00:44:03): Right. FG (00:44:04): It is just what we do not have any more is that kind of national leadership. The thing that might be happening here, and this would be good, is that Americans, now that they are a little wiser to the constant assault of information that is barraging over television, radio, the internet, do not automatically associate leadership with celebrity, and quite honestly, politicians are celebrities and they are made to be celebrities and they are revered as such, and they are... At the citizen level very often, it is the quiet... It is a guy like Aaron Feuerstein who basically has a mill in Malden, Massachusetts that burns down and says they are not going to want these people, become another New England ghost town with an economy that used to be... That decision and then became a celebrity. I think most people associate politicians with the opposite reaction. Do something that will make you a celebrity. Supposedly get people to beat a patent to your door. So there is, I suppose the quick and dirty word for it is a kind of benevolent cynicism about these things and people are saying, I will make these solutions at my own level. Goodwill is an organization that has a national organization that I am the president of, but it is local community based, citizen driven organizations. It is not a new concept for us, but we are not an organization of celebrities. We have not been out basically. We may start doing that now because obviously there is a greater comfort with attention. But almost to me we are somehow kind of reached a point in our public consciousness that is somewhere between the preachings of Marshall McClellan and Andy Warhol. We are basically talking about the global village, balkanized around a set of information sources that are just coming right into your home. They are all saying everybody is famous for 15 minutes. Most people know that. Most people accept that, and most people know that when your 15 minutes are up, that is up. They have got to deal with the other 12 million minutes of their life. We have this particular focus... Couple of professions were becoming a celebrity [inaudible] itself, and that is how we got balance. I think people are pulling away from that. Solutions that lend themselves to show host or evidence that feel are pain. SM (00:47:07): There was one event when you were young that had the biggest impact on your life? Speaker 2 (00:47:15): When I was young? SM (00:47:16): By young, when you were in college of college age, during that time when you were at Harvard or either a junior senior in high school at Harvard or just getting started after... What was the most important... What had the greatest impact on your life? Was there a specific person, a specific event? I am just talking about Vietnam War now, but for example, for me, the event that turned my life around was the shootings of Kent State because I was a senior at that time and I had broken my arm and I was about two... I went to State University New York at Binghamton, SUNY Binghamton, and I was ready to graduate and I broke my arm two weeks before graduation, was in the hospital, and the shootings at Kent State happened, and the doctor that saved my arm that operated on my arm, came in and said, when he saw the front cover of the young woman standing over Jeff Miller, I wish they would kill and shoot all those students. Now, that is a moment in my life, and at that juncture I decided I want to be spend a career in higher education because of the lack of communication. But that was a moment for me. But was there any magic moment for you that sent you in the direction of public service? FG (00:48:27): At that point, no, because I did not pursue a career in public service. I had a quick interim stop when I got out of college working for a member of Congress as something in that experience that really kind of propelled me into my foray in politics several years later. Talking about a defining event... At that point in my life, no, I had a very serious accident on location in 1982 when I was... Television... And had period of convalescence where I was not sure just how rehabilitated I ever been and had more influence... But during that period, I found myself basically in the role that I carved out for myself during the anti-war movement, during the participant/observer and humorous because I was working in a small organizational and satirical comedy group in Boston that was obviously taking the stuff... I mean weekly on the campuses and turning it in... Speaker 2 (00:49:55): Steven please call the Operator. Steven please call the operator. FG (00:50:00): That I found was a very kind of valuable and a kneeling service to the community who would be laughing about something a week later that they had been screaming about. SM (00:50:13): And that was the week that was that- FG (00:50:17): That was the week that was, or the early Saturday night shows or... Penn City back before it became basically just a farm system for Saturday night, and I know that one of the things that did for me was always kind of forced me to try and get the perspective on the situation as opposed to just the passion... On this most of my plate. SM (00:50:48): Just a couple more minutes here on the tape, I want to throw out a couple names. People that were well known in that era, and I would like your thoughts on these individuals just with a couple sentences, whether you thought they were positive people or negative people, they had positive impact, negative impact for you and for the Boomers and the first of the people that I would like to list are the ones you mentioned earlier, the Abbie Hoffman’s and the Jerry Rubin’s. What are your thoughts on them in terms of that era? FG (00:51:17): I do not lump them all together. First of all, Hayden was part of that group and Hayden is pretty much as mainstream and liberal as you can be and put those two phrases together without creating an oxymoron. Jerry Rubin wound up becoming some kind of materialist, I do not know, and Abbie Hoffman just kind of became a fringe player. So again, they to me, fall under the Warhol theory of being famous for 15 minutes. Now their 15 minutes for glorious, but I think they represented a movement rather than ramrodded it and they were the celebrities, but I was never particularly impressed by anything that they said or did. I always thought guys like William Sloane Coffin were the real kind of soldiers of that movement because they kept going back and making their statements and were not as interested in throwing themselves in front of a camera. SM (00:52:17): That would bring up people like Dr. Benjamin Spock, another individual of that era, the [inaudible] brothers, catholic priests who put themselves on the line. FG (00:52:28): Well, again, Spock almost had a second career in the anti-war movement after being our renowned writer of richer, he all of a sudden emerges as this anti-war guy and abide by the right wing and [inaudible] our children, ever since they came out of the wound. Again, was one of the celebrities that kind of orbited around the movement. I do not see him having a profound historical significance on the movement as much as just being one of the agents of it. I mean, this guy is not a Dr. Martin Luther King. He is not a Robert McNamara. He is not one of the people who is actually weaving the tapestry of history. SM (00:53:25): I said, hi. I interviewed him out of his house in Denmar. In fact [inaudible], I was thinking of implying for the National Service Corps this next year, but I am not sure yet because I love working in higher ed, but some of the other names would certainly be Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy, and John Kennedy. Your just quick thoughts on those three? FG (00:53:46): Robert Kennedy, yes. John Kennedy no. John Kennedy almost predates this era. John Kennedy is in the preamble, I think, to this movement that you are talking about, but not actually in the Constitution. Robert Kennedy. Yes, because Robert Kennedy was very much a part of it, was somebody that I think a lot of people identified with, certainly Dr. King, because this guy created the entire ethic of non-violent resistance, social change, and his like has not been seen since. I mean, all you have to do is look at the follow ones, the Jesse Jacksons, the Al Sharptons. SM (00:54:26): Not even the same league. FG (00:54:27): They are not giants. They are midgets and consequently difference between being a leader and a celebrity. SM (00:54:40): Dean McCarthy and George McGovern. FG (00:54:47): I think McCarthy... SM (00:54:50): Hello. FG (00:54:58): McCarthy I think is significant in that he was one of the first guys to really put this issue on the line. He was defined by this movement and he rose and fell with it and perhaps more successful in what he did then McGovern was. We were along [inaudible] I am not sure that is in the historical context, as valuable to the era as what McCarthy did. SM (00:55:30): We just had Senator McGovern on our campus two days ago. FG (00:55:33): Oh, really? SM (00:55:33): Talking about his daughter Terry. He has not talked about politics anymore. He was really out talking about the alcoholism issue. FG (00:55:39): Oh, so it is more meaningful. SM (00:55:40): Yeah. It talks about being a father and not being at home, so he is always reflecting all those years. Just a couple other people here. And then Robert McNamara again, your thoughts on him? FG (00:55:56): Well, McNamara McNamara has emerged I think only recently as one of the great influences of the era, because he has finally owned up to the... But to me, the great Darth Vader of all of this is Lyndon Johnson. Johnson escalated the war. Johnson believed in this guns and butter theory. Johnson took a kind of, I think, backroom cracker barrel politics about promise of anything, but cut your deals and put it on the national stage, and I think just rest of intentions devastated society. SM (00:56:35): When you look at the three presence, even though you talk about John Kennedy as being kind of the preamble, but still we were involved in Vietnam. There is a talk that the DM killings were... He gave the okay for those that, of course- FG (00:56:52): Killings [inaudible]. When were they? SM (00:56:55): They were just before he was assassinated in the fall of 1963 and all the things I have read about Lodge who was our ambassador then, and given the okay to go ahead and kill them. Then we have, of course Lyndon Johnson. Then of course we saw what happened with Richard Nixon. It is like our innocence kind of... We were supposed to be the good guy- FG (00:57:15): We just never had had the kind of public eye on it until the (19)60s. But I mean, [inaudible] Iran was obviously somebody we were ping around with in the early... Actively aiding abetting some of these pot dictators around the war. Kind of grew out of our Cold War mentality of forming alliances with people that would temporarily give us a tactical advantage and not... Plus, there was this uniform and loathing and anathema towards communists and the attitude was any alternative to communism is worth the US support, even if it is a vicious form of fascism. The first guy to blow that off was Castro who had the bad, kind of the manners to be right in our own backyard and is still there. SM (00:58:15): Probably die in office. FG (00:58:16): Oh, I am sure he will- SM (00:58:17): There will be a democracy there and eventually I have a belief that Cuba probably become a state by the middle of the next century, stranger things have happened. Richard Nixon. The next to last person, Richard Nixon. FG (00:58:30): Nixon, I do not equate Nixon with that era. I, Nixon came in and ended the war through a series of strategies that we can argue about forever, but Nixon was great contribution in opening of China and taking what had been any communist stance and refocusing it in the post war era. He actually is social liberal, although always be recognized for the war game, so he actually probably did more than the rest of these folks combined to discredit confidence in government and scuttle the euphoria of the baby Boomers when they ended the war. As a politician and global strategic thinker, he was without parallel and nobody was... He just [inaudible] of American politicians. Purposely gifted. Brilliant. SM (00:59:38): Last question and two minutes here, and that is going back to the very first question that I asked about looking at the Boomer generation, their impact on America, both then and now, what do you feel the lasting legacy will be of the Boomer generation? The 60 plus million that are now all entering middle-aged, Bill Clinton being the first one, although we know that many of the people who are 51, 52, 53, 54 still identify with that era. In your thoughts, when history books are written, what will be the lasting legacy of the Boomers? FG (01:00:12): Well, to go back to a term that you used earlier with the generation, this was a generation that actually managed to galvanize the best parts of leadership and citizenship are hungry for that. Now it seems to be a lost arm. It happened in small subgroups. It can happen in certain regions, but it does not seem to happen nationally. SM (01:00:43): Thank you very much. I- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Fred Grandy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grandy, Fred, 1948- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Actors; Love boat (Television program); Legislators—United States; Grandy, Fred, 1948--Interviews Description An account of the resource Fred Grandy is an actor and politician. Grandy is well known for his role as "Gopher" on the sitcom <em>The Love Boat</em>. He was elected congressman for Iowa’s Sixth District from 1987 to1995. In 1997, he became president and CEO of Goodwill Industries. He served as a speechwriter for various shows and hosted radio talk shows. Grandy received his Bachelor's degree in English from Harvard University and Master's degree from the Washington Shakespeare Theatre and George Washington University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-11-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.126 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:47 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7df87c2ab888cdd3ec67f59289d86412.jpg ebeffdbc19ee8c70f9014f97fc206f18 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/11be79a6355f5661aa9e9db8eb3ab242.mp3 8eeeb87c626feac31d716352c8a64208 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;1997-02-15&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15359,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,14281427],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">1997-02-15</span> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Wally Kennedy Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Reagan Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 103:36 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;American Woman; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Platoon; Catholic Church; Dr. Spock; Ronald Reagan; Healing; Vietnam veterans; Cambodian Campaign; Activism; Civil Rights protest; Ken Burns; Civil War; Empowerment; Parents; College; Birmingham campaign; Ted Turner; Tom Hayden; Jerry Rubin; Timothy Leary.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14275305}}">American Woman; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Platoon; Catholic Church; Dr. Spock; Ronald Reagan; Healing; Vietnam veterans; Cambodian Campaign; Activism; Civil Rights protest; Ken Burns; Civil War; Empowerment; Parents; College; Birmingham campaign; Ted Turner; Tom Hayden; Jerry Rubin; Timothy Leary.</span> Subject LCSH Radio journalists; Kennedy, Wally--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Wally Kennedy Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Kiernan Sullivan Date of interview: 15 February 1997 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:05 Make sure it is up. I-I am- WK: 00:06 This is a little, uh - This is a little less noisy in my office. SM: 00:09 Right. Well, one of the main projects I am trying to work on here is to try to evaluate the, uh, the boomers and their impact over the last 30 years. One of the inspirations to that [inaudible] to lead into the first question is, um, Boomer generation, um, when you hear about it in the news today, many times politicians will make kind of statements about the boomer generation is, uh, being the reason why we have all the problems today based on their lifestyles, the free love issue, the issue of drugs in America, they will, they will kind of pinpoint back to that era that look at a lot of the, um, the protests and lack of respect for authority that was supposedly happening in that time that is carried over today. So, my very first question to you, Wally is, what are your thoughts about individuals who generalize, uh, the boomer generation will, will pinpoint the boomer generation that will be the lightning rod for all of the ills of today's society. WK: 01:02 W-well, first of all, obviously, I-I would be defensive of people who are my age, uh, and in five or 10 years younger and five or 10 years older who have gotten this this, uh, name is the rumors. Um. I think that you have to water seeks its own level. And I think that we have, we have sought our own body. Um. I remember very clearly what it was like to grow up the 1950s in the early 1960s in America to then, and I think up until, until, uh, well, in the (19)70s, uh, especially, American government was, um, uh, somewhat repressive. I think our society was somewhat repressive. Uh, I think it was somewhat Puritan. Uh, I think it was controlled by the post-World War Two veterans. Uh, Bill Clinton is the first non-World War II veteran that we have ever had in the White House. And not saying that he is good, it is just that is just a fact of life. He was the first Boomer we have ever had in our house, in the, in the White House. So, I think that, first of all, to blame the ills of society on the baby boomers. I think it is a tremendous misnomer. Um, I think you have to take each revolution one at a time, um, for example, if and I can go into greater detail i-in other questions, but let us just say, for, for the sake of example, the sexual r-revolution, because that is, that is a flash point. Um, was there a sexual revolution? Yes, but this is pre aids. This is post pill. This is a period of time where the worst thing that could happen to you, if you were using the pill, or that your partner was using the pill, the worst thing that could happen to you is you would get a venereal disease, which was easily curable, easily curable by, uh, going to your doctor, getting a shot or getting a pill. And that was, that was the end of the consequence if, in fact, protection was being used and the pill is being used. Um, we now live in an era where if you sleep with the wrong person, you can die. That was not a reality in the 1960s but, but what brought that revolution about was really a convergence of, I think, of two or three different things. And I can, I can tell you one thing right now, I was brought up in a very religious Catholic home. I am still a practicing Catholic, and I will be probably till the day I die. But not only the Catholic Church, but America in general, was a very repressive sexual society prior to the 1960s, um, it was something that was not talked about. Uh, I love my father very dearly. He was a very well-educated man, but basically, I learned much more on the street about sexuality than I ever learned from him. And this is a man with a PhD and a woman and a wife who is, you know, college. Um, all I learned about sexuality I learned in the street. And I did think that there was a significant- [intercom interruption] That is something we are going to have to live with, unfortunately. [inaudible] Um, I think there was a significant resentment on the part of a lot of so-called Baby Boomers that all the all the information about sexuality, uh, had to be squeezed out of legitimate sources if they got it at all. So, is it any wonder that Playboy magazine or other instruments of sexuality skyrocketed during the 1960s because the thirst for good information, for something that is very natural and very legitimate, very in, in, something that is a part of all of us just simply was not there? I mean, you can scour textbooks that we used in high school biology classes in the 1960s and there would be vague references to zygotes, and you know that in many cases, they would not even use the term sperm, you know, which now rolls off the tongue. I mean, as a talk show host, I probably used the word 300 times in the last year, um, but there was a real, honest to God, vacuum of legitimate information that every young man and young woman deserved to have t-to say nothing about the fact that they were raging hormones and all that other stuff. But basically, we lived in a very repressive culture concerning that. Uh, we lived in a very repressive culture concerning the sexuality of women, which is, which was one of the, one of the fundamentals and what the genesis of the women's movement that started in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, uh, before it became politicized, much of what the women's movement was all about was around the fact that women had literally, literally been kept in a second-class status, not only in terms of their power within our culture, but also sexually. Women were viewed as the sexual objects of men. They were viewed as, as the object to be enjoyed by men. And the idea that they could have a sexuality of their own and that they could enjoy sexuality was preposterous. Smart Women always knew that. Women who-who empowered themselves, always knew that. But the average American woman was-was not thought of as in terms of her sexuality. Her sexuality was looked at for two things. Number one, it was to police her man, and number two was to have babies. And so, if our-our generation, the people who graduated from college in the early in the mid (19)60s and to the mid (19)70s, had the audacity to say, wait a minute, there has got to be more to life than that. Then so be it. Are we responsible for a million teenage pregnancies? Are we responsible for, uh, for a million abortions in America? I doubt it. I do not think so. I think that is an awfully, uh, heavy burden to put on a generation of people. Are we responsible for saying that people are sexual? Yes, good, good. SM: 07:08 This leads me right into, um, the question dealing with, uh, your thoughts, uh, y-you deal with the sexual revolution here, but your basic thoughts on whether the boomer generation was a more of a positive or a negative, [inaudible background noise] and, um, in response, SM: 07:23 If you can list a, list a review of the, uh, things that you think were positive about the boomers and some of the negatives about the boomers. [intercom interruption] WK: 07:31 Well, I think it- I very much fall down in, in the direction of the positives. Um, first of all the positives: I think the single biggest positive to come out of the 1960s which was largely creation of the boomers in, in all men of goodwill and women of goodwill, was the Civil Rights Movement. Uh, America entered the 1960s with the status quo perfectly content to marginalize in every way, shape or form, black men and women and America entered the 1970s, uh, with largely because of Dr. King, but also because of the help of, of boomers, both black and white, um, committed to the idea that that was never going to happen again, and that the second-class status of African Americans, which to this Day still needs very close scrutiny, um, but that was forever changed. And I think that it was the boomers who said, Dad, why are those dogs going after those kids in Birmingham? Dad, how come those cops are turning those fire hoses on legitimate protesters in Alabama? And, and it was the boomers who raised those questions, I-I think that that is that is so-so I think in terms of long, lasting effects and positive effects, I think that number one would be the civil rights movement, although one could arguably say even in 1997 that there was still plenty of room for improvement. Um, second thing, um, I do not think that there is any question that we, we legitimately pressured the United States government into getting out of Vietnam. Unfortunately, too late. There has always been the argument as to whether or not had JFK lived after the 1964 election, would he have withdrawn the troops because he already saw the writing on the wall, because at the time, at the time that JFK was killed, about 150 advisors had already been killed, and all I know is that one of the joys of my life was that I had the opportunity to interview the late Dean Rusk after he had left government service, he went back to the University of Georgia, and he was on the, the law school, and I asked him that. Now I read different answers in print, but I told I will tell you that he told me face to face, that Kennedy planned to withdraw the troops from Vietnam after the 1964 election, and the only reason is that, that he kept them there is because he was hoping like hell that the South Vietnamese would take these people literally for what they were, which was advisors, take their advice and, and be able to mobilize a standing army which would be able to withstand the North that was point number one. And point number two was purely political. Kennedy was a political animal, and Kennedy realized that he was going to be probably running against Goldwater, who was this arch conservative, and he did not want to have to deal with Goldwater pointing a finger in his face, saying you were responsible for making South Vietnamese Communist. Because remember, back in those days, the single worst thing that you could be in the universe was a communist. So, if the domino theory were true and South Vietnam, South Vietnam had fallen, then Kennedy would have taken the burden for it, but Dean Rusk told me JFK was going to pull the troops from Vietnam. I think. I started my college career debating a member of the students for the democratic society. I ended my college career out in the street with them. Um, there, there came a point at which my upbringing and my knowledge and my looking at what was going on, just said, this is wrong. This is so wrong. And then there came the point where I think we all realized this government, which is a this was an absolute first, and you can give 100 percent credit to the baby boomers, although it has a lasting effect, and I think a very negative effect. The baby boomers were the first to say, “This government is lying.” Now, all the, all the, you know, the American Legion guys with their hats on, who, what, who fucked the big one [inaudible] would listen to us and say, [inaudible] these kids are patriotic. I mean, the American government does not lie. We know for a fact. We know for a fact the government lied. We know the President lied, we know Johnson lied, we know Nixon lied. We know that the body count was absolute horse shit. Um, so baby boomers, the college students at the time, were forcing the, the government to come clean. A-And I think Nixon put us in a position, and I think history has, has backed me up in this where, you know, he polarized the country to such a great deal that basically, we were on the we were on the brink of civil war. It was the young versus the old, and I was proud to be among the young. And do not think I did not have a number of set twos with my own with my own father, about this, because he was a World War Two veteran and the read. But the reality is that even he and most Americans by the time, by the time the Paris Peace Talks, came up with some kind of a conclusion, everybody was so sick of it and wanted it to end so badly, but they lied to us, so we were responsible for that. However, there is a downside, and the downside is this, we are responsible we are now in our (19)30s and (19)40s, not (19)30s. We are in our (19)40s and (19)50s. We are responsible for-for making our children believe that government can never be honest. We are responsible for constantly bringing up Vietnam, bringing up Watergate, bringing up government deception, to the point where you have one of the most popular shows on television, The X Files, the predicate of which is the government deceives. And the government, the government will do. The government is a power unto itself, and the government will lie and cheat and steal and do whatever it damn well pleases. And so that is a [inaudible] as so, many of the things that we did well, were advantages at the time. Now they have become disadvantages, because now you take your average 18 or 19- or 20-year-old, and sometimes they just flat out, flat out, do not believe what the government says, which is ironic, because the government is Bill Clinton, who's a who's a baby boomer. SM: 13:39 This gets right into the issue of trust, which is later on in [inaudible mumbling], go right into it. Um, there is a feeling that I have had for quite some time when I deal with college students, although I have been hiring for 18 years, that, um, college students today certainly question, just like we questioned when we were young. They want to have answers. But there is a I am wondering that this concept of trust, the psychologists will say that people cannot succeed, or one cannot succeed in life unless you trust others, you know, trust your parents, trust your family. You got to have a sense of trust. But many of the boomers came out of that era because of what happened with Watergate, because of the lives of Vietnam, because of many other, um, crises that have happened with political leaders, of lacking trust in the political process, uh, lacking trust in anybody in a position of power and responsibility, and that not only includes political leaders, but it includes ministers, head, CEOs of corporations. Um, a question I am kind of leaning at here is, um, how you know you referred to it here, but how important and how serious is this issue of trust in America today, not only for people our age, the boomers, for the parents of these young people, but the children of boomers, and in, in some respects, even, uh, the people World War Two, generation from the, uh, from World War Two, because, uh, they all experience what we all went through in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And so, this issue of trust, where do you place that on the scale? Say, one to ten in terms of how serious it is in this country, or lack thereof? WK: 15:04 Oh, I-I think if I had to-to look at America 1997 I would, I would label lack of trust is, is probably one of the four or five most significant problems in our culture today. So, I am serious about our being somewhat responsible for the-the way America is today in, in a negative sense. I do not know that it is not I do not know that it that was our responsibility to pull back. I mean, we-we had Watergate, so we elected a Georgia, Georgia Peanut Farmer as president, and we expected him to cure all of our ills he did, and, and so therefore we became disappointed in him, and then we went with-with Reagan and the Republicans who, who told us what we wanted to hear. And now we know that with things like Iran Contra, there were convenient lapses of memory, where, where Ronald Reagan applied, and there was ample evidence to indicate that George Bush line. So, I think that, I think the trust in government issue is that if we set up a government whereby, in a democracy, the only way you can keep staying in your own government is by lying, or not necessarily lying, but telling people what they want to hear. Because, after all, elections are a popularity contest, so that that is that is a difficult dilemma, but at least, I think we are much more out in the open about it. I see like Senate races, though, like this. The Torricelli Zimmer race last year, um, turned my stomach, because it gets to the point where you have, you have two men who sink so low in their quest for-for high office, and it is high office representing the-the great state of New Jersey in the in the United States Senate is a high office, and it is a wonderful honor. To, to sink so low, and in this, this finger waving of who is more liberal? You are a liberal, you are a liberal, you are a liberal, whereas you, you had this, this overweight, blow hard Republican party spokesman with a three-hour radio program who has no challenge at all, and basically, he has turned the word liberal into one of the filthiest words in the English language. So, so, of course, if I am 19 years old, who am I going to trust? Who can you trust? Um, I also I feel sadly because I think that, that I hope I am wrong, but I but I think that one has to, as one gets older, one has to have a spiritual trust in a higher power, whether you call it God, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, one has to come to grips with why we are here, what we are here for. And I think that that was something that, frankly, you asked me one of the disadvantages of the boomers? We convinced ourselves that we put ourselves here, we convinced ourselves that we-we did all these wonderful things, and we convinced ourselves that we could do very well without that, without anybody's help, especially the help of a higher power, because we had religion jammed down our throats when we were kids, and once we became adults, we did not want to have to deal with it. And it is only when you get married and you have kids and you start raising your own kids that you really sc-scratch your head and say, okay, well, now what am I going to teach them? So, I think th-that that the-the removal of God or a spirituality from American culture is very-very attributable to the, uh, to the baby boomers, very much so, but we are not the generation that throws our babies in the toilet. It is 19-year-old that are doing that. It is 18-year-old that are doing that. We may be their parents, but I do not know. I-I rather suspect that if you ask me what I think is wrong with America today, I will tell you, lack of trust is, is a significant factor. I think, uh, a lack of respect for authority is a significant factor. But when you have got a president who's a skirt chaser, and then basically all the things that we have now come out to find out about even LBJ, I mean, Roosevelt had Lucy Mercer. JFK had more mistresses than you can shake a stick at Roosevelt had his ones on the side. And so now we come to find out that all these guys were kind of near do wells. And so therefore you-you wonder why we do not have trust. But I think that the country suffers from lack of trust, a lack of respect. And I think that one of the single largest issues in the country today is the fact that you have almost 50 percent of young adults growing up in a home where both parents do not live and-and we- SM: 19:29 Oh! WK: 19:29 -we sweep it under the rug, we pretend like it is and we do talk shows, and people get on and psychologists hypothesize how, you know, it does not really make any difference whether the father is in the picture. It does not really make any difference whether the parents are married. It does not really make any difference if you are married three or four or five times. No. You know, the eternal quest for love is-is nonsense. SM: 19:51 That goes directly back to the boomers then, and maybe their failure in terms of, um, being parents or, um, a-and the attacks I originally referred to at the beginning of the interview that, uh, maybe one of the weaknesses, there may be some semblance of truth to the problems today because of the way boomers think. A-and the, the question I want to ask right now is, have boomers shared? This is a very important concept here, sharing their experiences, sitting down with their sons and daughters and saying, this is the way it was, Mary or John. Um, have boomers transferred the issue of passion to their children. We all know today that volunteerism is very important amongst today's young people. They, they volunteer in high school and they volunteer in college. You are probably up to 90 percent of students coming in or close to it who are volunteering. But that does not get into the whole issue of desiring at some juncture to serve others, to want to become a politician, or to want to go into a position of responsibility to serve others beyond oneself. So, I am getting a what are your thoughts on that, in terms of, have boomers related to their kids? Um, and, and have they sat down a-and, and supposedly a quality boomer had was passion. Your thoughts on the passion that boomers had and whether they have been able to transfer this to their transfer this to their kids. WK: 21:04 Well, obviously I can only speak on behalf of my own, um, and my wife and I are, are the same age. We are both 48 and, uh, so we both, even though I did not know her when I was going through college, we both lived these things at very different levels. She was at Central Michigan University. I was at Columbia College in Chicago. So, in an urban setting, I was exposed to a lot more, but yet at the same time, I mean, they, they, they had their changes as well. Um, it would be irresponsible of me as a parent to not let my children know that, once upon a time, not too long ago, that a black woman or a black man could not drink at the same water fountain. It would be irresponsible of me to, in any way, shape or form, agree with that Reagan quote that Vietnam was noble. I think Vietnam was not noble. Vietnam was a mistake. It was a mistake. It was a mistake. We may have had good intentions, but the fact of the matter is, I cannot help but look at that wall now very cynically, and look at the names of 60,000 martyrs, and they were martyrs for LBJ, and they were martyrs for Nixon, and they were martyrs for this American jingoistic bullshit idea that we, that we are the people to tell the whole world how to run their affairs. I think that the world has done a tremendous job of discovering itself that communism left to its own devices, collapses under its own weight. That is what is happening in Eastern Europe. But, um, so as a parent, it would be grossly irresponsible of me not to let them know about what tremendous injustices existed as I was a young adult and I was looking at the world the same way they look at it. Now, they take these things for granted. I have got two daughters. I have got a 16-year-old and a 14-year-old. The idea that they can do anything they want, they take for granted. That is a given. If they want to be doctors, fine if they want to be you know, I have always told them, do not if, if you want to be a flight attendant, be a flight attendant, but for God's sakes, if you want to be a pilot, be a pilot. You know, whereas, whereas women in our age were told, oh, you want to fly? Be a flight attendant. And they were not even called flight attendants. They were called stewardesses, and they had to be lookers, and they could not gain weight and, and all that. So, I think it is imperative, and to any responsible parent to say, this is the way it was. And this is, this is what has changed. Kids are kids, and kids are going to take that information and process in any way they think they have. I [stuttering] my kids, all three of my kids, are far from perfect, and I have got one, as you all know, who's, you know, kind of trying to still discover himself, but he would no more involve himself any kind of in any kind of an act of racism or sexism or any of the isms then, then he would, you know, walk in front of a railroad train. Um, in my-my daughter, the middle child, is 16 years old, but mentally, she is much more mature, and, uh, we will hear comments made at the school that she goes to, which is a parochial high school that she considers to be homophobic, and she will stop right in their tracks, and she will turn around, and she will she will tell some kid, it is not faggot. SM: 24:12 Right. WK: 24:13 There are no faggots. You know, there are gay people and-and I am proud of her for that. SM: 24:19 That is good. WK: 24:19 So yes, I-I think that we have a duty. We have a responsibility. The last line in the movie platoon is [coughing]we have a r-responsibility to pass on to those who survived, uh, the stories of those who had not- i-in why they have that and what that was all about. So, um, I think most people I know, who are my age or thereabouts, in one way or another, tried to incorporate into their kids some kind of a sense of the decency that, that all of us, I think, felt. Uh, I think the Catholic Church has been maligned, and in some cases deservedly so, but I also think that the Catholic Church, I look at the Catholic Church as, as-as a major force of change, uh, in the area of civil rights, very they made it very abundantly clear by the mid to late 1960s I mean, some of those people getting the hell beat out of them down south were priests. SM: 25:29 Mhm. WK: 25:30 And, uh, you know, you have got the Bering brothers- SM: 25:33 Right, [inaudible] WK: 25:35 -and many of the and even some of the people around here who were arrested out of GE for trying to destroy the nuclear warheads were Catholic priests, um and that the morality, morality is such that every individual as Dr. King said, you know, the, the grandsons of slave owners and the grandsons of slaves should be able to stand side by side. And I, although we do not live in a utopian society, I think they were much, much closer to it. Um, it would be, what is the point? What is the point? I mean, I lived in the greatest era of the 20th century. Um, I do not a-and from what I have heard, I had no desire to live during the Depression, and I certainly had no desire to live during World War Two. But I can look back at my life now, and you know, hopefully there is a lot more of it left to live, but my God, what a great time to live. Uh, what a what a force of change we were. Um, you know, we were all brought up with Dr. Spock. And you know, when people would, you know, people would run to the drugstore when they would have a baby, and the first thing that they would get, besides the diapers, was Dr. Spock's book. And then it turned out, Dr. Spock came back and said, I screwed up. SM: 26:34 Yeah. [laughing] WK: 26:59 I loved him. I had him on two or three times he is a delightful old guy. And one woman called up and said, Dr. Spock, I hope, I hope that you-you are proud of yourself. You screwed up an entire generation. [laughter] Uh- SM: 27:15 Have you, have you changed your opinions of the, uh, the boomers as you have gotten older? Remembering those times when you were, uh, went to college for that first time and challenged that SDS member, and then you were out in the streets yourself, and toward the end, and now you are a TV, um, personality and had many different jobs, um, to the day. Have you changed or been pretty consistent, uh, on your thoughts on the boomers? And, uh, a-and secondly, one of the terms that many of us used at that time, and I would go into and that is, we are the most unique generation in American history. How would you comment on that? Some, as some people might say, an arrogant statement that we are the most unique, uh, different generation. WK: 27:54 Well, to be young is to be arrogant. You know, it is arrogance is an arrogance is a virtue that is especially endemic in the young. Um, I think at the time, I think that we were justified feeling that because, I mean, if you take that 10-year period of time, let us say between 19...1963 and 1973 we, um, made huge strides in the struggle for equality for all Americans. We, um, stopped the war that was terribly immoral and terribly unpopular. We brought out of the closet a-a very basic human need, which is sexuality. [getting up] Let me close this door [inaudible]. We were responsible for pressuring the Congress into removing a, uh, a president who was a liar. Um, so I would think that probably, if I had to guess, that statement was probably made sometime in the early (19)70s, because we were probably feeling our odds. And I think that every-every youthful generation feels their odds, see, I think the whole ballgame changed that when Reagan got it, because Reagan basically came in and said, “It is good to be a boomer.” Reagan basically came in and said, “Wealth is good.” And so, you had under Reagan, you had the, uh, you know, the, the movie hero the 1980s was Gordon Gekko. Wealth is good, you know. What? What is wrong if you want a BMW? What the hell is wrong with having a BMW? You know, if pe- if people are starving in Honduras, screw them. How many of you? How many of them do you know personally? And so, I think that through his charisma, which was considerable, um, Reagan, all of a sudden, took our-our, uh, our desire, which is uniquely American. I-I-I guess all people have a desire to feel good about themselves, but we really do, and he was certainly the most charismatic president since Kennedy, um, in-in, in my life, the two most charismatic presidents were Reagan and, uh, Kennedy, and Reagan came along and said, “What is wrong with being wealthy?” And, and so we had this tremendous period of prosperity. And I think some of us, as all of us grew in our jobs and grew in wealth and grew, you know, started having families of our own. I think all of us got kind of caught up in that BMW, uh, you know, okay, I paid my dues. Why should I have to worry about the other guy kind of thing? Um, and, and I do not know whether that is more a function of age, or what the political wind, or what the political climate is in America right now, so I think the Reagan kind of dampened the, that desire to change things. I mean, you know, Jerry Rubin became a stockbroker, you know, Abbie Hoffman became basically a comedian. Um, that the significant - there were no more significant strides to make. There were no wars, no more wars to be won. Um, by 1973 the feminist movement was well on its way. Uh the Civil Rights Movement was had really prospered. Uh, Vietnam, war was history. The, uh, the draft was history. So, yeah, I-I think that that is the relatively arrogant statement, but I think tha-that there is plenty of stuff to back that up. I do not see; I do not see the generation of today accomplishing those kinds of things. I mean, somebody comes out and says, “Oh, Tara Tabitha” [mic cuts out, fumbling to get it back in place]. You know, I-I can say, for example, in this in this field, in, in my field, um, when I started, th-there has been, as, as there had been in many fields, it has been tremendous change when I started being on the radio, which is where I started, was the domain of the white male with [intercom interruption] Uh, with the occasional exception of the very smooth voiced African American male, no women. God, you know, you would have a woman do a cooking show or something like that. [talking over each other] And then bit by bit, they put them in. And lo and behold, the, uh, the radio stations did not lose their audience, and lo and behold, they there were some that were pretty damn good. I do not see, frankly, the same quality of, of hunger, and I do not see the same quality of, of, um, well studied nature that coming out of the kids that are coming into the field today, I see people who want to be within five years, they want to be the six o'clock anchor, and they want to be making $800,000 a year. And when you tell them, yeah, well, that all starts if you are lucky, if you are lucky, you get a job as a production assistant in Scranton for 15 grand a year. And then they bristle. Interestingly enough, the ones that turn out, the ones that do not bristle and say, “Okay, I am on my way,” are usually the ones that do quite well. SM: 33:09 Strong work ethic. WK: 33:11 Yeah, very much so. And I, and I think that, um, we are, we are, to a very large extent, our parents. And I think that my appearance, li-like many people, my-my grandparents were immigrants. Uh, my, my parents were the son and daughter of Irish immigrants, and not working was not an option. I mean, I did not even know what the hell welfare was, and the idea that I would not want to work anyway. I mean to me, what I do is lazy enough to begin with. I mean t-to me, in my world, I just if you sit on your butt in a radio studio all day and make a living at it, my god, that was just like, you know. I mean, my grandfather was a blacksmith and on a day like today where it is 100 degrees outside, that did not mean he did not go to work. He went to work, and the horses had to be shod, and because it was hot, they would be irritated. And, um, [someone coming in] Hi, David, how are you? Dave Roberts: 34:19 Good. WK: 34:19 Dave Roberts, Steve McKiernan [inaudible] I-I think, um, I think especially if [mic cuts out] WK: 34:22 I think it was a que- I think it was just a question of, what were you going to do? I do not think, I do not think that there was ever a question of, you make up your mind when you get there. I think there was always a question, what do you want to do when you I mean, the most commonly heard question, I think, was, what do you want to do when you grow up? And, um, so, you know, a lot of guys went to med school, a lot of guys went to law school. Um, a lot of people, just like myself, got a bachelor's degree and said, this is it, Jack, no more. This is, you know, I do not want to do anything more, more about this. But, um, I-I think that that particular period of time is indelible. I think from, uh, 60 about 63 to about 75 was indelible. I was carried out. [talking over announcement] Um, you know f-for 80 different reasons, um. SM: 35:27 [inaudible] WK: 35:27 Yeah. SM: 35:27 One of the leading questions in this whole project gets into the issue of healing. Um, uh, you are the 38th interview I have had in this project. WK: 35:36 Mhm. SM: 35:36 This is one of the most important aspects of the interview, and that is, uh, when people visit the Vietnam Memorial. And Jan Scruggs and the things that he did, uh, the goal of that memorial was the healing process, to heal the nation, to, uh, not only the Vietnam, uh, population and their families, but, uh, the nation as a whole. But in going to the Vietnam Memorial the last six years, not only on Memorial Day, but Veterans Day, I sense a lot of there is a lot of healing that still has to come. Uh, you hear it, and some of the statements made against the president, uh, certainly they will never forgive Jane Fonda. You know, it is not 100 percent forgiving of some people, but- WK: 36:20 She was not even here. SM: 36:20 And I know that some Vietnam veterans wanted to know. They asked me if she was going to be there. I just said I did not know, but I-I like your opinions on this issue of healing. Um, the divisions were so strong at that time. Um, there is a brand-new book out by Jules Wilk around 1968 and I recommend it highly. It is an excellent book. Gets into that whole year and how important it was in American history. WK: 36:20 There were protesters down there on the Fourth of July. SM: 36:20 Right. SM: 36:42 Yeah, and, but see, the divisions were there, and everybody seemed to it was an us versus them mentality. And the question is, many people will say, um, that the us versus them has never subsided, but it continues today and is directly linked back to that period. Uh, what have we healed? Your thoughts? Have we healed from the divisions of that time? Even though the war is over, um, the movements and some have gone on, civil rights, some people, we have taken steps backwards, as opposed to forward. But, uh, have we healed from those tremendous divisions? Or are the boomers carrying these divisions in their psyche, probably to their graves. WK: 36:42 I would say that was the pinnacle year. The answer your question is, no, I do not think so. I-I do not think we have healed because I-I think that, um, it has made an indelible mark on all the men, especially who had to deal with in one form or another, if you were male, and, and you, especially like myself, had the unfortunate distinction of drawing a, a low number, you had to deal with this military thing. And I remember as I got into senior year in college, and I was really, really anxious to get out and pursue my craft. I was already on the radio, and I could not wait till school was over, and then I could go out to wherever, Green Bay, Wisconsin, or, as it turned out Flint, Michigan, and really do this thing full time. I remember the, the burden of having to do this military thing was just like a weight on my chest. Um, and then, fortunately for me, something totally unexpected happened, and I was able to get into a reserve, but I did my time in the service that way, and I did not have to go to Vietnam. Um, I think, though, that the healing and, and the anger, I think, very legitimately, you know, let us call a spade a spade. I was able to go to college because my father was a college professor. SM: 38:39 Are we okay Dave in, here? Dave Roberts: 38:40 Yeah-yeah, it is fine, it is fine. I will be out of here in a second. SM: 38:43 Okay, oh okay. [multiple people talking at once] WK: 38:44 I went to I went to college for two reasons, because my father was a college professor with and with, our family could afford it, and number two, because he was a college professor, I have been told since I was a little kid, that was something I owed my father. And I hated the first two years of college, those two years of college when I had all electives was just a whole different ballgame. Um, and of course, while I was in college, it became abundantly clear that being in college as opposed to being in Vietnam, was a place to be. Um, so when I was my second semester senior year, and I heard about this reserve thing, I-I obviously jumped at it, not believing it, and, and it turned out to be accurate. So, I-I did four months after, and then six months, six years in the reserve. Um, but I think by that time, I think that everybody that I was in with had pretty much solidified their feeling that, uh, the government was a liar. They lied. They just lied. They lied about body counts. They lied about not bombing Cambodia when in fact we were. They lied about ground troops being in Cambodia when in fact they were. Uh, and so every time, even now. A-a-and frankly, just as an aside, I do not know what I think about Quinn not going in because frankly I knew 80 zillion guys who would use any excuse they could get, and my attitude was more power to you. Um, you know, you did what you did. I knew guys. I knew a guy who, um, was-was a half an inch too tall to go into to pass the physical. He was that he was like six, six or something like that. And he nevertheless, the week before his physical, because he was 1A he did traction, just to make sure that he stayed too tall. Well, now think about it. Think about it. At that particular point, we had several 100,000 troops in Vietnam. They were bringing the body bags back faster than they could bring the soldiers over there. And so, think about it. So, a lot of guys were making a cottage industry out of not, not going in the first place. And second of all, I mean, there was just, there was a tremendous amount of distrust. But the healing is not just I am a man of the government. The healing is divisions that took place within families. I mean, there is a really good scene in Born on the Fourth of July, where Tom Cruise comes home in a wheelchair, and one of the sister’s whispers in his ear about the brother. He is against the war, and Tom Cruise says this is before his conversion as Ron Covack to the activist Tom Cruise says, "Love it or leave it. Danny, love it or leave it." And that is a-and that that was something that internally had to be dealt with. And I do not think it ever was. Like to a lot of people, the wall means a different thing. To me, it is just like I can still see my father standing at the top of the stairs when I was just, I was of the opinion, then maybe, you know, just for five seconds I thought, well, maybe I will go to Canada. I knew I would not do that because I knew I could not work in this opinion; I could not work in this field if I did. But he said, well, then get out now, because I will not harbor a federal fugi-fugitive because of you. If you do not answer your draft induction, you are a fugitive, and I do not want you in the house. And that is the only time in my life which was full of ups and downs that my father ever said if that is what you are going to do, get out. SM: 42:18 Yeah, um- WK: 42:19 The healing very much is internal. Um, the healing is most importantly now, what do you say to 60,000 families? SM: 42:27 76 million people were boomers. WK: 42:30 You know? What do you say? I mean, what do you say? And, and what about the guilt of US college grads who got to go to college? You know? Because basically, it was a poor, white and black kids war that is who was in the front line, and the college brats were not in the front line unless they were lucky enough to be in ROTC. And what they would do is, once they got their orders from ROTC, they take them, they came in the front line, and they come back in a body bag, 28 days later. SM: 42:53 This gets into the fact that people have written that 15 percent of boomers are truly active that were against war, gun violence protest, gun violence on movement, uh, so forth. They could be conservative or liberals, but they were activists during that time frame. WK: 43:08 I was never in, I was never in STS, um- SM: 43:10 But you went to protest them. WK: 43:13 I-I did. Earth Day. SM: 43:14 So, they were not part of that. WK: 43:16 Anti-war protest, absolutely. Um, Civil rights protest, absolutely. Um, and proud to have been part of all of it. SM: 43:26 It gets it gets into the real question of experience. And I may have mentioned this prior to, uh, setting up this interview, and that is, we took students to meet Edmund Muskie, and we had that time to meet with him. He had just gotten out of the hospital. And had a time to reflect on watching Ken Burns Civil War series. And somehow, in some way, when I asked this question to him about the lack of trust that the generation had in elected leaders and one in 1968 and we got into the whole issue of healing, and how many boomers do not trust their bosses still, as they have gotten older, it is this lack of trust mentality. He almost broke down and crying. He said, uh, I am going to basically say that we really have not healed since the Civil War. And he started talking about the Civil War generation going to their graves with bitterness for the other side. And then that threw a flame in me about the fact is, are the 76 million boomers, many have gone out and raised kids, had families, but they are all aging. Are they going to go to their graves with the same feelings that many of the Civil War generation had- was still the bitterness, um, lack of healing from within and-and some might say, “Who cares?” You know, you cannot heal for whole generation, but- WK: 44:29 There is a huge difference, though, you just put your finger on. He said that. He said that many of the people, many of the Civil War veterans, went to their graves with a bitterness, to the other to the other side. I-I worked in Atlanta, and, and I-I-I have said many times that I if I did not know any better, I would have thought that general Sherman's first name was "that damn", because that is what people would say, that damn Sherman. Uh, big difference, though, a very curious thing has happened with-with the Vietnam veteran. The Vietnam veteran is mad at the United States, he was mad at the VA, uh, he was mad at the army or navy or whatever service he was in. But what is very interesting is he is not mad at Vietnam anymore. He is not mad at the North Vietnamese. I cannot tell you the number of stories that I have seen about guys who have gone back and have broken bread with guys that, that they-they were their former prisoners or that kind of thing. They are a very curious thing has happened. We are not mad at them. We just, we just established, uh, with virtually no press at all. No press, uh, negative press at all. We just reestablished diplomatic relations with Vietnam. Our ambassador to Vietnam is a former Peoria. SM: 44:35 Mhm. Right-right. WK: 44:35 So, what is, what is confounding to me, and what is fascinating to me is the healing is all here. The healing in-in terms of being angry at the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese, I think the average person now says, “Okay, well, they are communist, and it is not our form of government.” And obviously, if you look around the world, it is, it is a form of government that is dying out. But nevertheless, their country, it is their goddamn country. I mean, how would we feel if Vietnamese showed up in Missouri? SM: 44:35 Mhm. WK: 44:47 You know? And how would we have felt if the North Vietnamese showed up to help this out? I mean, because that is what it was. So, what is interesting is the healing is-is virtually all internal. I have never been to the wall. I have driven by it, and when my time comes, I want to be there alone. Wow, I just do. I just want to be there alone, and, uh, because it is a very personal thing, and the war took its toll on every American family in different ways. And my mother would tell you that it is through God's goodness and mercy that neither of her sons got sent over there, and she may very well be right. But at the same time, we-we were, like everybody else, negatively affected by this debacle, wrapping itself in the flag, which I really, really, really mix in with his little American flag bow tie or, or, uh, lapel, you know, and with his you know. Now, all of all of his boys are best-selling authors, you know, but, uh, they in, in some of the dialog that was spoken in that Oval Office, which belongs to everybody, by the way, which, uh, Haldeman and Erin Lichtman and Dean seemed to forget for quite some time. You know, it was the end. All of us were the, you know, the kids and the commies and the commie you know, the commie influence and all that other stuff. And, uh, you know, Nixon, Nixon's kid did not go, at least. You got to say one thing for LBJ. LBJ is boys both went. SM: 48:01 That is right. WK: 48:03 Chuck Robb and Pat Nugent both went. Nixon's. You think Nixon's sons in law went, hell no. David Eisenhower, who I have an immense amount of respect for has got one of the great minds about history and is a delightful chap. He did not go. SM: 48:19 He served, but I think he was in the military. WK: 48:22 I do not even think, no, no, no, no, no [talking over each other] Really, whatever. And, and Eddie Cox was a Wall Street lawyer. Forget it. You know, we are real good at sending other people's kids to die. SM: 48:36 I guess. [mic noise] WK: 48:42 You know, maybe we are under underselling the value of Nixon. Nixon painted the picture to everybody who was over 35 and told them exactly what they wanted to hear. In that sense, he was not very different than Reagan, where the, the major difference between Nixon and Reagan- [intercom interruption]- realistically speaking, Nixon probably accomplished a hell a lot more than Reagan did. But the major difference between Reagan a-and Nixon is, is that, and it should not be important, but it is the personality, the warmth that the, um, you know, you just had a feeling with-with Reagan, that he was like, your father, you know, Nixon was like this guy. Nixon was like this annoying neighbor that you knew that he was right, but you just wish he would go away. And then after a while, you found out the guy was lying. And how typical of Nixon, how very typical of Nixon when presented with the facts of the Watergate burglary, which I do believe he knew nothing about until it was done, how very typical of Nixon to instead of just saying, guys, boy, did we blow it, I am going on TV tonight, and I am telling the American people that these people are associated with the Republican National Committee, and they are all fired, and we will not support them in any way, shape or form. They broke the law. And, you know, we win our elections fair and square. Would have been a one-night story. How typical of Nixon to turn it into a disaster. You know, to lie, to cheat, steal. You know. SM: 50:23 When you look at again at the boomers, uh, just you had had made a reference early on to the, uh, impact boomers had with respect to the civil rights movement. But, uh, your thoughts on how important the college students were in the protests on college campus with ending the war. I-I say this only in reference to an interview I had with Jack Smith, who said college students really did not have that much of an impact. The impact really took place when the body base came home and Middle America saw that the war had end. But, um, your thoughts on that at 15 percent of activists who were protesting the war and how much of an importance they were to ending it? WK: 50:58 Well, they were an ever-present force. Uh, I think that Jack's right. I think that, um, when there were several pivotal things in ending the war, uh, first of all, I do not think that one can underestimate the tremendous potency of Walter Cronkite in the 1960s, um, you know TV now you have got ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, um, CNN. In most homes, you had either Walter Cronkite or Huntley and Brinkley, but most homes, it was Walter Cronkite that certainly was ours. When W-Walter Cronkite made two visits to Vietnam, one of the early (19)60s and one in 1968 when Walter Cronkite came back in 1968 and basically opinionated that we do not know. I am not sure we are doing the right thing. Johnson said, Johnson said, that is the election. I am going to get beat. That is why he withdrew. Um, So I-I think that, um, the evening news stopped the Vietnam War. Now what portion of the evening news you choose to select as being responsible for that is up to you. I think that Jack Smith is right. Jack Smith's a veteran. Jack Smith is also a news man. And I think that, yeah, the, the nightly body count after a while, you would say, oh, well, you know the body count today was, we killed 5000 Vietnamese and only 300 Americans died. Well, more and more and more those 300 Americans were s-starting to show up on TV. We would see their bodies being carried off the airplanes. We would see their grieving families at the funerals. And more and more it came home, and more and more kids from more and more neighborhoods were coming back in those body bags. So yeah, Jack is, Jack is right in that sense, but I-I-I differ with him in the sense that the college thing was ever present. It was constant. It was there. I mean, I remember Northwestern University, which is like the bastion of Republican capitalism, Evanston, Illinois, um, was shut down. The main road, main road that goes through Northwestern University, of Sheridan Road was shut down right after Kent State, and there was a huge sign up over Sheridan Road that said something to the effect that, you know, go make your millions downtown, but remember the remember the kid, kids who died for-for the freedom of expression, and Kent State, I think, was when everybody started to say, Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Because I know even that-that is my parents said, “Wait a minute. They are shooting college students, unarmed college students. Come on.” And so, I think, I think Jack is right, that it, it was the daily procession of body bags, and it was the daily and also it was the daily student demonstrations. But I think that that the point at which this the war, any popularity of the war sunk to new levels was Kent State. When Kent-Kent State happened, that was it. Every American parent who had a kid off at college said that could be my kid, because they were just protesting the war. SM: 54:03 What, um, if there was a moment in your life, the most important moment in your life of, of this period, what was the what was the event? And now you are talking about your high school years and your college years and maybe your early adulthood years, but if there was one specific event that you could pinpoint and said, even to this day, it is hard. You might think about it. Uh, we might think about it every day, but it is one thing that you will never forget that had tremendous influence on your life. What was the event of that period? WK: 54:31 Chicago in 1968. Lived there, uh, at the time, I was working for a TV station there, uh, I saw these massive crowds. Uh, there was Civil War. It was Hubert Humphrey up in his suite at the Conrad Hilton kissing the TV, um, screen when they showed a picture of his wife, and it was, um, under educated under trained, overworked Chicago police officers’ downstairs who had been put on edge and on alert by the mayor, who had promised that, uh, by God, this convention was, um, going, to be orderly, and, uh it was that powder keg. And, uh, I-I am not sure, even though Humphrey lost, I-I am not sure that, uh, there is any one event in my mind that-that more closely illustrates what, what a near civil war there was, although Nixon exacerbated it, it was there already. Many of the protesters had come for the sure hell of it. I mean, many of them had come to, uh a-and I must say, l-let me play amateur psychologist for a second. I do not think it is an accident that the kids who were protesting the war were the same kids- He just won't answer that page. SM: 56:09 Mind if I [inaudible] WK: 56:12 No-no-no, I cannot, yes, I can, because you remember it too, but I cannot tell you how the life force was sucked out of an entire generation of young people on November the 22nd of 1963. This guy hit, and this is way, way, way before all this stuff about his mistresses and his ties to the mob and all this other stuff. I mean, think back to 1963, this guy was our hero. He was a war hero. He was good looking, he was charismatic, he was funny, he was witty, he was he, um, we know now that that even though he bumbled his way through, you know, the first couple, the first year or so, that he actually became quite an astute, uh, President toward the tail end of his, his presidency. Uh, through-through sheer dumb luck and determination, he, um, he capably handled the Cuban Missile Crisis, and at the time in which he was killed, his popularity was just through the ceiling. The thing that was unique about him was the fact that he was so appealing to young people because Ike was like your grandfather. Ike was this bald guy who won the war. We were not alive for the war, so thanks Ike for winning the war and keeping us from speaking German. Um, but Ike was and Ike was, I-I think history is judged. Ike was just a real mediocre president. Um, he was okay, but he was not great. Ike lied. Ike lied about the you too. SM: 57:42 That is right. WK: 57:43 But Ike was like somebody. Ike was your father's president. Jack Kennedy was our president. And when that life ended, I think for many, many, many of us, there was a need to express just the outrage, the anger. Um, we did it in good ways. Um, for example, I think that, that it is no accident that, that Jack Kennedy dies in November of 1963 in January and February of 1964 Th-The Beatles come to the United States of America, and in the phenomenon that nobody has ever seen before or since, just totally mesmerize American youth, because basically and, and take them out of their intense grief over the loss of this, of this guy that we love, and allow us to-to live, to have fun, because they were so fun and they were so funny. And so-s-so very talented. And we were influenced by their music, because their music transcended just it went from-from silly love songs to really, you know, to meaningful stuff. And they just, they wrote all kinds of new chapters about music and everything. And we were with them every step of their way. So, then we get to 1968 and in an April, Dr. King is killed, and which is, you know, a kick, kick in the face to every, not only every African American, but-but every American. And two months later, two, three months later, Bobby Kennedy's killed. So, with that as a background, the Convention was in August. Bobby Kennedy died June 4, and we had hoped that he would be elected, that he would, um, be a suitable replacement for his brother. He seemed to have almost, not quite, almost, the qualities of Jack. Nobody had the qualities of Jack, but he was a pretty good substitute. And, um, then he was assassinated. And so, by the time that convention rolled around, those kids were angry. Those kids were angry because basically, as the line went, all the good ones are gone. They kill all the good ones. And it seemed, and it seemed to be true. And so, they would shove people like Hubert Humphrey down our throats, or Richard Nixon. They would take all these old guys, and they would shove them down our throats and say, a-and there was no choice there. I mean, it was just like, you know, all these old farts and no, and nobody was saying, you know, Richard Nixon was saying he had a secret plan to stop the Vietnam War, which was such a secret, he kept it a secret for six years. SM: 1:00:15 [chuckling] Sure. WK: 1:00:16 Um, so I-I think you cannot talk about the boomer generation without talking about, in my opinion, the most significant besides the Vietnam War itself, the most significant disaster to the boomer generation was, uh, the assassination of Kennedy. SM: 1:00:33 You think today's young people when we say, uh, Ike was my father's president, today's young people say, well, JFK was your president, so I will say the same thing. WK: 1:00:43 Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. SM: 1:00:44 So, so it has no linkage at all. WK: 1:00:46 Well, yeah, but see, it gets back to the trust thing. It gets back to the trust thing because they, they cannot look at Bill Clinton and say “He is mine.” I mean, he can be on MTV from now until the cows come home, and he can he has a full head of gray hair, and he has got a teenage daughter, and he is the first baby boomer president and all that other stuff. And young people can say, well, he is my president, but you know what? They do not. They do not like him. I mean, they like him compared to the other old farts. I mean, compared to Bob Dole. SM: 1:01:12 [laughing] WK: 1:01:13 But-but you do not hear kids. You do not hear young people talking about Bill Clinton the way we talked about Kennedy. Um, he may be able to relate to young people, but basically, I think that people, young and old see him as kind of a cynical politician who will say anything to get elected, and now he is okay. I mean, he is enjoying, I mean, we are all enjoying this tremendous crest of, uh, of prosperity and-a-and I would think that he has got to have something to do with it, but the fact of the matter is, he is certainly no hero to the young the way Kennedy was to us. Um, and, and the Kennedy assassination cannot be underplayed as a pivotal, integral thing in forming what is called the boomer Generation, probably the first of, uh, the first leg of, of the table, I would say, um, you know, there was, there were the assassinations, starting with John. There was the Civil Rights Movement. And there was Vietnam. SM: 1:02:15 This gets right into the next question [inaudible mumbling], how much more time do we have, we okay, yeah? WK: 1:02:22 15 minutes or so. SM: 1:02:23 Okay, um, [inaudible] just take a pause here [talking over each other]. Yep. WK: 1:02:34 Set the course for future events and for the calamity that was to become the (19)60s. No doubt about it. No doubt about it. In the fact that most people look at the Warren report is, is fiction just exacerbates it. I mean, who killed him is really secondary, the fact that he was- SM: 1:02:55 got very general but you have heard this before in the best history books are written 25 to 50 years from now. What would be the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? In your thoughts, what is the lasting legacy? And how will historians treat us knowing that the best histories are 50 years after an event has taken place? WK: 1:03:14 Oh, I think they are probably they will look at it, look at us as intrinsically selfish because we did not win any wars, um, you know, we did not build the atom bomb, we did not build Empire State Buildings. Um, you know, basically all we did was we caused a hell of a lot of trouble and a lot of rockets in the 1960s and then we all became filthy rich in the 1980s under Reagan. Um, and I think that that would be a tremendous disservice to, uh, an entire generation of young men and women. Um, first of all, I think that there were a lot of people like me. We have either grandparents or great grandparents who came over from the old country. All of our parents, the single defining moment of their life was World War Two. For many of our parents, the second most defining moment of their life was, uh, the depression. So, these are people who knew hard times. Most of us did not know hard times. So, when you are worried about how you are going to feed your family? You do not have the luxury of worrying about whether or not a little a little black girl can drink out of a water fountain in Birmingham, Alabama. Once those needs were met, once the war was won, once America became prosperous, we had a relatively quiet period of time. You know, we went. We went basically 10-12, years with-with nothing other than the constant gnawing threat of the so-called Cold War, which at times would eat up, but basically i-it was just, it was just that it was a cold war. So, then we come along and, I-I swear, Steve, I-I think chapter one in this book is JFK's killing that is slapped every [inaudible intercom] every kid in America, and we became, then, at that point, more than just passive observers. And as, as things heated up and as we went to college, and colleges should be a bastion for activism, there has got to be a bastion for activism. I remember very clearly when I was emceeing that this very subject at West Chester, how most of the professors who were boomers, who are our age, were talking about. Well, it is not my job to get you a job. My job is to expand your mind. My job is to present some idealism. My job is to-to let you know, you know that once upon a time in the civil rights movement, you know, we were here, and now we are here, and in the women's studies movement, you know, this is where we were, and this is where we are, and they were all kind of lofty idealists from the 1960s while I understood perfectly what they were saying, I could not help but notice there was an enormous amount of anger in this, in the auditorium of kids saying, screw you! I do not know how to run a computer, [laughter] you know. O-or I do not have a job yet, you know. So, so take your (19)60s and stick it, because I do not have a job so and-and of course, they are all tenured professors, so they do not have to worry about a job for the rest of their life. There has got to be a place. There has got to be a safe place. And this is why I feel personally, and this is off the record. This is why I feel so sad about my son, because- SM: 1:06:39 Mhm. WK: 1:06:41 -we were also, you know, you talk about the college campuses a-as a as a nest of rebellion, we were really also the first generation of Americans who went to college. I mean, our parents, our parents really did not go to college. I mean, I-I am fortunate in the fact that both of my parents did. But I think if you take the average person, um, the average person did not go, I mean, you went to high school, and you went out and worked, and, um, most of our fathers came home from World War Two, and many, many of them, my own, included, like did a master's. When he went in, came back, got a second master's, and then got his doctorate. Um, many of them had gotten their butt kicked enough in the service to know that basically, the only true vehicle for success and the only true vehicle for getting out was, uh, education. So, but there has got to be a safe place for young people to express idea ideas, no matter how radical they are. Um, and, and the college campuses, obviously, I mean, not every campus was Berkeley, but [stuttering] and ironically enough, a lot of people would say that Kent State was not that radical of a school at all. SM: 1:06:54 Yeah. It is a very conservative school. WK: 1:07:42 Yeah. SM: 1:07:43 Most of the, everybody was surprised that that is where it hit- WK: 1:07:54 Yeah. SM: 1:07:55 -knowing th-that in Ohio, Ohio University was the most liberal of the colleges at that time that had the greatest problems, because I worked at OU, um, in the mid (19)70s, and Ron Kovack was actually kicked off the campus, and actually was arrested in Athens when he came there, and Vietnam Veterans Against the War and, uh, and then, of course, Ohio State was, geez, they had tremendous turmoil. So, Kent State was the big surprise that happened there. But he thought if it hit, if it had happened, it would have happened at OU or, um Ohio State University, because, they, they were, uh, hotbeds of turmoil. WK: 1:08:26 But I think that history may judge us as selfish. Um, history may judge us as, as not as altruistic as the current generation. And I think that there might be some degree of accuracy today. Uh, history may judge us as, I think, uh, as non-spiritual, and I think that there is also a degree of accuracy there. SM: 1:08:43 Have, have boomers carried their passion? Have boomers, I mean we are talking 15 percent of that active, and then, uh, 85 have the boomers carried the passion that was supposedly their-their most, best quality they possess? WK: 1:09:00 No, but I do not know w-whether that says [intercom] I do not know whether that is a function of the baby boomers being a disappointing generation, or whether that is just a function of age. Um, we are all very different and very different at 48 than I was at 18. You know, I have lived my life 30 years, and, um, I have actually been known to on rare occasions, vote for a Republican. Um- SM: 1:09:25 I am shocked. WK: 1:09:25 Yeah, well, WK: 1:09:26 I do not admit it to too many people, but, no, I-I mean, I vote for the person. I-I just [inaudible] I am, I-I guess one of the things that I carry over from the (19)60s is I-I am an independent. I cannot vote in primaries because I am I am registered as an independent. Um, but I think that probably people would say we, we got to the 80s, we made our money, we sold out. Um, a-and probably now the only way in which the true, the true dipstick of, of telling whether or not we had any effect is basically the way our children turn out. I am proud, proudest of my children, because I know that they would never, I know that all the "isms" are things that are not in their vocabulary. They will not be sexist, they will not be racist, they will not be in any way, shape or form, do anything to hurt another human being, um, just for the hell of it, or because it makes their life easier. SM: 1:09:26 [laughing] WK: 1:10:16 Yes, she does, yeah. SM: 1:10:16 Uh, last question before I give them just some general names for your responses and we will close the interview, and that is this issue of empowerment. Um, most students when they come to college, even today, when I was, uh, young and when you were young, hopefully, one of the goals is developing self-esteem in young people. That they have self-esteem they go on the world knowing that they can speak up if they see something wrong, like you already mentioned, your daughter does. Obviously, she has self-esteem. But, but the quality that a lot of young people do not have, and that is one of the goals of higher education, is not only preparing them for the world out there, hopefully they will continue to want to learn beyond, uh, just what they learn in the classroom, and that they have self-esteem and will be, uh, willing to speak their minds when the time comes forth. So, the question I am asking you is this: empowerment was a very important, um, adjective characteristics of the boomers. They felt empowered. Many of them did because they protested the war, they got involved in civil rights movement. And yes, many of them really bugged a lot of people. They, uh, a lot of us did it just for the sake of doing it. But there were a lot of since- there is a lot of sincerity there, even Vietnam veterans will say that, uh, if they, they are not so much upset with the people who were sincerely against the war. It is those people that tried to evade the draft and did all these other things, but there were sincere people out there. Empowerment. Has that concept of empowerment carried on into the boomer’s life as they have gotten older? In other words, they continue to speak up. And has that been transferred into their children, this sense of empowerment? WK: 1:11:40 Let me go back to Dr. Spock. Um, the, the pervading sentiment when- if you are a boomer, you grew up in the 1950s in the early 60s, the worst thing that you could do as a parent is to have a kid with a big head. The worst thing that you could do is have your kid be, uh, arrogant or conceited, or think that he or she was too good. So especially i-in-in coming from a Catholic school background, uh, if you did something, well, it was if it was acknowledged, it was acknowledged minimally. Um, you would look a-at my family, for example, and you would say, of the four of us, we have all done very well in our chosen careers. Uh, and you would say, gee whiz, well, your parents must have, have put you out in the world with a really good feeling about yourself. And I would say that is just simply not the case, um, nor is it the case of virtually anybody I know. Because I think that the responsible parent in 1958 or 59 was thinking that, basically, I do not want Johnny to have a big head. I want, I want to be able to control my kid. Um, I think, obviously, on some level, my family and every other family felt that they had if I work hard enough. I mean, one thing that we got from our parents was this idea the work ethic. I mean, success is 99 percent perspiration, 1 percent inspiration. I think that that came from our families. But I know very few people who were born and raised in the 1940s and 50s and 60s who came out of their family experience really feeling great about themselves. And I think a lot of what happened in college was, first of all, no more rules. Um, I mean, you had to show up for class. Uh, you were introduced to liberal thinkers in the in the person of many of the professors who taught us the classes. You were introduced to other kids who, um, it, it, it just was not high school anymore. But I think that there is a real it is a real misnomer to think that we were, that we came into the college world arrogant. I think that we all came into college world very frightened. And I think that we drew, we drew upon one another for our strength, and only in I mean, I-I went to college. First two years of college, I went to a city college, Chicago City College, and I began very quickly became act-active as Student Government, and it was in in being active with student government, I felt sensational about myself, probably for the first time in my life, because I was, uh, you know, when i-in grade school, in high school, I was usually, you know, in trouble for this, that or the other thing, little petty stuff, but-but-but never, you know, they could never this student leader that I was not college, and I felt terrific about myself. And I felt not only terrific about myself because I was student government officer, but I felt terrific about myself because of the people that I was with and the power that they gave me, and we all empowered one another. Then when I left the city college, which is a much more transient atmosphere for a permanent four-year institution, I was there, I-I felt good. The thing that really put me over the top, though, was getting my first job when I was working in this industry. Then I felt okay, I have arrived. But I think it is real misnomer to think that people went to college with-with big egos. I think that is nonsense. I think I think we drew upon each other's strength, and I think that if somebody said, hey, wait a minute. Look at this idiot, Bull Connor with these fire hoses, shooting these, you know, shooting these poor, you know, black protesters down in Birmingham. I think that if it came from our parents, it was one thing. If it came from another kid in the dorm, it was a whole other thing, then it really meant something. So, I-I do not think, I think, quite frankly, one of the je- one of the major, uh, one of the major shortcomings of the World War Two generation is the idea that, that, uh, oh, you do not want your kid to have a big head. Um, I think kids with big heads do not have problems. Kids with big heads do not wind up on-on psychiatrist couches. Um- SM: 1:15:40 That whole it is like trying to discuss ego, or that whole period couple years back, when they are talking about folks are coming out about if you have too much ego, that is bad. And, you know, it is like, well, you got to have ego, because that is confidence in yourself. WK: 1:15:53 Yeah, so much ego, it is not bad. There, there are people who, deep down inside, hate themselves, but they put on this arrogant, t-this kind of sachet of arrogance, um, because they are covering up for a deep-seated inferiority complex. There is a very different it is a whole different thing. I mean, even Christian teaching. I mean even if you and, and, and Christ has been so maligned and so-so misquoted, or, or the ideas that he espoused are so misquoted, um, if you looked at, at the heart of the Christian teaching, I mean, you know, um, Christ said, love one another as you love yourself. And, um, so I-I think that-that is a tremen- I think that is a tremendous misnomer, you know that these kids were all just arrogant kids looking for a place to hang out. SM: 1:16:39 I am going to ask, uh, this question here, which is basically throwing out some names. Just get your initial [shuffling sound] response to them, whether [intercom interruption], uh, just your thoughts on them and, uh whether they were impactful on uh- WK: 1:16:55 Mhm. SM: 1:16:55 America. First two, obviously Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden. WK: 1:16:59 Uh, Fonda, in the sense that she even to the people who are against the war, I think she crossed the line. When she got on, uh, Hanoi radio, there was a sense, even within the anti-war movement, I think that there was a sense of right and wrong. And I think that, that when she went on radio Hanoi and urged American soldiers to give up. I think that there was a sense that she, she had really crossed a line, um, and that she has not redeemed herself with her spelled body and her tremendous, um, workout stuff and [stuttering] punishment of all punishments, marrying Ted Turner. But I think that realistically speaking, I think th-that she, she, um, she crossed a line, I think with Hayden. Hayden's a really bright guy. Um, Hayden, Hayden, Ruben, all the guys who in, in the, uh leadership of the movement, I-I do not think that they ever had the mainstream college kids. I think they made, there was a lot of smoke and mirrors, but, uh, Hayden, I think, has made a significant contribution. [intercom interruption] As a, you know, as a California legislator, and, and, and to this day, you got to give the guy credit him and he still activist. He is still a liberal. He is still getting his ears pinned in you know, Richard Rierden, I guess, just kicked his butt in the election, or was about to kick his butt in the election, but, but [intercom interruption] Hayden di-did not become, uh, um, Jerry Rubin. Hayden never became a stock broker. SM: 1:18:27 Yeah, that goes right into the next two, which is Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman. And I-I prefaced the Abbie Hoffman question by well aware that he killed himself several years back over in Bucks County. Yeah, manic depressive. He had $2,500 in the bank, [chuckling, stuttering] the social media said he had given all this money away to causes yet, and he had written a note on his deathbed that basically stated that no one is listening to me anymore, so I am not going to live anymore. And so- WK: 1:18:40 Oh, he was a manic depressive. I do not think anybody listened to him in the first place. I think he was the clown prince of the movement. Um, He was, I-I do not think that people said, well, what does Abby say? I think that people were much more in tune with Ruben and with some of the other people who are more serious than that. No, Abby was the outrageous guy, Abby was the guy who wrote the book, steal this book. I mean, Abby, Abby was every movement must have its clown prince, and Abby was the clown prince of the anti-war movement. SM: 1:19:15 But do you think, and before we get the next names here, that there are many boomers that may have continued to keep their idealism as they got older and whatever field they went into, and then, though they see that, even though he may have been the clown prince or whatever perceptions might be, that, wait a minute, today's college students are not listening or care as much about civil rights issues and racism and so forth as we did - the passion again - WK: 1:19:37 Because they think it is done. SM: 1:19:39 Yeah, they think it is done, or all- how about some of the other issues that so no one is listening anymore, and we are, we are getting older, and we are going to pass on and so they are going to be raising their kids in a couple years. So that, that, you know, I-I only saw that article, not so much caring about Abby Hoffman as I did. Was that symbolic of many boomers and their attitudes as they are approaching 50? WK: 1:19:58 No, because I think that he was caught in a time warp. Um, you find, I think that you find that with a lot of people, you find that with a lot of actors, for example, that th-they, they do one thing and they do one thing well, and when they are asked to show some versatility, they just cannot do it. So, I think that in every offense case, Abby was reliving the (19)60s, even though it was the (19)90s. And I think that he was really kind of caught in a time warp, um, you know, Hayden's, I mean, you have to give Hayden credit, at least for changing over the times. But he is still dedicated to, you know, mostly liberal environmental type causes. SM: 1:20:21 Uh, some of the Presidents, um, just, just give real quick commentary on Lyndon Johnson, John Kennedy, Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford, just, just some brief thoughts on all four of them. WK: 1:20:38 Okay, well, Lyndon Johnson was the guy who put the pedal to the metal about Vietnam. I mean, history has shown him. Um, Lyndon Johnson was, as most men are, a real paradox. Um, he was enormously skilled at playing the political game. It was Lyndon Johnson. [intercom interruption] It was Lyndon Johnson who got through most of John Kennedy's legislation. Posthumously. Uh, it was Lyndon Johnson who put through the, um, Civil Rights Bill, which had just been in the planning stages when Kennedy was assassinated. Um, it was also Lyndon Johnson who, b-before John Kennedy's body was in the ground, the night of Kennedy's assassination in the White House, called together the Joint Chiefs of S-Staff and said, boys, get ready, because we are going to step things up in Vietnam. Um, I think Lyndon Johnson was the was the quintessential southern politician. Uh, did it well, uh, realized by the time he died that the Vietnam had been a huge mistake. SM: 1:21:35 Kennedy and, uh, Richard Nixon? WK: 1:21:36 Y-you know, John Kennedy, this is, this is 1963 versus 1997 when we know, you know, he was a man of tremendous flaws and had an eye for women, um, I-I think he was idealism personified. I think that he was the first person to actively reach out to young people, including those who were even too young to vote. Uh, he was the fi-first person to, uh, bring up the, the notion of, uh, things like the Peace Corps of, uh, of government is what you make it, um, and you must make it. And everybody has an obligation. And not just the you know, not just what they told you the draft board that you got an obligation to serve. Kennedy said you got an obligation to, to serve and to give back. And I think that, I think the fact that he came from so much wealth and power added credence to his argument. Uh, and as I said, and I cannot underestimate this enough, I think that his assassination was the pivotal turning point in the 1960s I think that day came and we just went in a whole different direction than we would have gone had he had lived. SM: 1:22:40 Nixon and Ford. WK: 1:22:42 Nixon probably will go down as the most paradoxical of presidents of modern times. Um, you know, ultimately, ultimately getting a peace in Vietnam, ultimately opening up relationships with China, uh, ultimately, I mean, bussing was actually Nixon. Nixon, it was the Nixon administration that proposed bussing is an equitable solution to-to, uh, racial disharmony. Um, but you cannot divorce yourself in the end. And I think that the man was, uh, a very complex, very untrusting, um, very, very paranoid guy who was a real ultimately, toward the end, was a real, dangerous guy. Uh, Jerry Ford, [stuttering] not to use the- to abuse the analogy, but Jerry Ford is the second-string quarterback. Jerry Ford was the guy that you call him when your first-string quarterback just broke his arm. Um, a decent, honorable man who had represented the conservative Grand Rapids, Michigan district quite well for quite some time, um, who, under the circumstances, made a, uh, made a noble attempt at healing, and I think, did okay. Um, pardoning Nixon caused him the election, and it should have. SM: 1:24:06 The, uh, some of the civil rights leaders you made reference to how important Dr. King was in, in your life, but your thoughts on Dr. King and the Black Power advocates, Huey Newton's Eldridge cleavers- WK: 1:24:17 See the problem with Dr. King? The problem with Dr. King is not unlike the problem with Nixon and Ford, um, that you have got a real strong number one and there is, there is really no clearly designated number two. I mean, in Atlanta, I got to know a lot more about Dr. Abernathy, and Ralph Abernathy was a good guy, and it was really unfortunate that toward the end of his life, he saw fit to, uh, in his memoirs make some reference to Dr. King's supposed infidelity, which I thought is- was a cheap shot, and, and un-un-unlike the class that Dr. Abernathy usually showed. But the problem is that, you know, there are damn few Martin Luther Kings, um, and, and Ralph Abernathy certainly was not one of them, and I do not think that Jesse Jackson, at that particular point had the wisdom, uh, or the maturity to take over the mantle of, uh, the movement. I was disappointed, frankly, getting to know Andrew Young, uh, and what a magnificent man he is. Uh, Andrew Young could have stepped in and taken over, if the movement had not fallen into-into disarray. It is too bad that he was not clearly designated number two, because I think that Andrew Young was and is uh, uh, a very, very special human being. SM: 1:25:37 Black Power advocates? WK: 1:25:42 You know, Dr. King used to always say, you know, peace through non-violence. But I sometimes wonder if a lot of that civil rights legislation and a lot of that, uh, housing for people, and the things, the kinds of things that the Black Panthers were providing, would have been provided if it were not for the Black Panthers. Uh, in Chicago, uh, Mark Clark and Freddy Hampton were two black panthers, two of the leaders of the movement, and they were shot. They were shot to death, and they were slaughtered. And every piece of forensic evidence indicates that, uh, that is what happened. I mean, they did not. They were not reaching for guns. They were one of them was nude. They were both asleep, and there was a sheriff's raid at four o'clock in the morning, and both these guys were slaughtered. I think the black the black panthers, had a lot going for them, um, and they certainly lit a fire under Congress's tail to do something about some of the problems that they were addressing. Um, Eldridge Cleaver turned out to be a real disappointment because of his skirmishes with the law. Shooting judges, raping women, um, is not the way to empower oneself. Um, but I think that many of the goals of the black peace tone nation were, were commendable, and I think that in many ways they, um, just as the Muslim, uh, nation does now, meets very real and very fundamental goals. So, the very real and fundamental needs of the of the minority community. SM: 1:27:10 Goes right into Malcolm X, died in (19)65. WK: 1:27:17 Well, Malcolm X is, is a fascinating man, because, like so many other great men, he was not born to greatness, but, um, obviously as a person, as a Caucasian person, it is easy for me to say, well, the thing I really respect the most about Malcolm X is that after his pilgrimage to Mecca, he chose to see that Islam and, and Allah is color blind, and that all men and women of good faith who follow the Will of what he referred to as Allah, as we-we would call God. Uh, all-all of us are God's children, and that that espousing that philosophy ultimately probably cost him his life. Um, I think Malcolm X is one of the most important African and probably next to Dr. King is probably the most important African American of the 20th century in terms of leaders of their people. SM: 1:28:06 Timothy Leary, Ralph Nader, and again, I am picking these names out because they were of the time. WK: 1:28:11 Timothy Leary, too-too kooky to be mainstream. Tune in, uh, turn and drop out, too kooky to be mainstream. Uh, Ralph Nader, um, an interesting growth out of the 1960s basically, um, you know, General Motors spent 1000s and 1000s of dollars trying to, to get something on this guy, you know, find an old girlfriend, or find, you know, did he pay his taxes? Or, you know, do something to besmirch him. And he was totally, completely beyond reproach, um, and, and was squeaky, squeaky clean. And I think that consumerism was in the consumer movement was an interesting offshoot of the 1960s, um, that we were not going to take the same we were not going to buy cars that, that were bad cars, you know, and we were not going to buy appliances that would fall apart. Um, an interesting offshoot of the (19)60s, no more than that. SM: 1:29:03 How about, uh, George Wallace, and I am just mentioning the Hubert Humphrey and Barry Goldwater. WK: 1:29:09 Okay, George Wallace, uh, typical southern governor, just more of a loud mouth. Uh, his metamorphosis as a human being has been interesting to watch. Barry Goldwater was scary. He was a scary dude. He was a scary guy. Uh, I know he was the grand old statesman of Republican politics, but he was talking about dealing with Vietnam War in terms of using nuclear weapons. And that, to me, is scary. And, uh, it was, I was delighted to see LBJ win that one, um, as matter of fact, was working in the Young Democrats at the time, um, and who was the third one? SM: 1:29:43 Hubert Humphrey. WK: 1:29:45 You know, Hubert Humphrey and LBJ are almost interchangeable. Hubert Humphrey was, was an old Senate hand from the, uh, from Minneapolis who was a halfway decent vice president, but probably would have been a real mediocre president, but God compared to Nixon. I, uh, I do not know. We will never know. He did not win. So, Spear Wagner. Spiro Wagner was one of the most polarizing forces in America 19- in the in the 20th century, um, the, the spearhead of Nixon's attack against young people. Uh, A real, real, real scary guy, probably the scariest guy in the Nixon administration, be-because he was the one who forced older people to say, you were there with us or against us. Nixon did not do it as much as Agnew did. SM: 1:30:28 Muhammad Ali. WK: 1:30:30 Um, entertainer, um certainly one of the one of the preeminent figures, that of the of the 19-1960s but, uh, in terms of his lasting impact on culture, I do not think he has much. Entertainer. A magnificent boxer, um, an interesting, interesting, interesting man, probably, certainly the most interesting man that ever fought. But that is not saying a lot. SM: 1:30:58 Some of the women leaders, Gloria Steinem and, uh, Betty Friedan. WK: 1:30:58 You have to understand the women's movement, and I say this basically, having grown up in the Midwest and having lived in the South for five years, the women's movement was and is and always, probably will be perceived as an Eastern phenomenon. Now, on some level, every parent wants their daughter to be able to be the president united states. So, it was accepted to that regard, and on some level, they are all to be commended for being bringing to our attention the tremendous inequity that existed in our culture. But I do not think that there was ever a groundswell of support for the people wound around the block to get Gloria Steinem's autograph on a book, or, or Betty Friedan's autograph on a book. I think that they were thoughtful. They were thinkers. But I think that there was a, there was a perception that they were Eastern liberal thinkers who basically had a germ of a good idea, but, but, uh, it basically came from privilege to begin with. You know, tell-tell it to a woman in Kentucky who's a single mother raising three kids. You know, it te-tell her about the women's movement, and it was that, it was that kind of- SM: 1:32:07 Eugene McCarthy. WK: 1:32:10 Um, kind of a sign of how far reaching our, our hatred of the Vietnam War went, that we were willing to listen to this kind of non-entity of a senator. Uh, just it was one sole purpose, and his one sole platform was to get us out of Vietnam. SM: 1:32:27 And, uh, Robert Kennedy. WK: 1:32:28 As, as I said, Robert Kennedy was the great promise. Uh, Robert Kennedy was hopefully going to be the president that his brother was not allowed to be. Uh, Robert Kennedy was everything we believed in. Uh, He was progressive. He was not as charismatic as his brother. He had more of a temper than his brother, but he was the one who stared down Jimmy Hoffa, and he stared down George Wallace, and he was the one who sent the National Guard into the south, and he was a tough customer. And I think tha-that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that had he have lived, he would have been elected in 1968 no doubt about it. SM: 1:33:01 How about George McGovern? WK: 1:33:03 George McGovern is a wonderful, uh, capable southern [stuttering] senator who represented South Dakota well, but again, falls into the McCarthy mold, where it was just- we were so desperate for anybody to say, let us end this damn war that that we settle for is very, very, very decent man. SM: 1:33:19 And the cu- finally, the, the people that are affiliated with Watergate, the John Deans of the world, the John Mitchells of the world, the, uh, group that were involved in the Watergate. WK: 1:33:32 They got caught. They got caught. John Dean sold out. He got caught. He kept a plea. He turned on his boss, and basically, he sang his song so he would not have to go to prison for more than a short period of time. Of that whole group, the ones I had the most respect for are Coulson and, uh, Liddy. Coulson, because I think time has [stuttering] time has certainly indicated that his conversion is very genuine. [mic cuts] I, um, I-I think in, in Charles Carlson's case, uh, time is- has proven that his-his conversion to Christianity is very genuine, and, uh, and has literally consumed his life. He is very comfortable with it. And I think Liddy in the sense that, uh, just as just as the left head is heavy Hoffman. The right now has Gordon Liddy, except Gordon Liddy is a real smart guy, he is a former FBI agent. He is a lawyer, and, you know, he is fond of saying, I am out because of he is a convicted felon. Uh, I am not allowed to own a gun. But Mrs. Liddy is very well armed. [laughter] Uh, Gordon Liddy. I mean, sit in a room with Gordon Liddy and talk to him. I mean, just he, when he was working for Nixon, he stood against everything I believed in, but he is a, charm, funny, uh witty- SM: 1:34:52 Got a book out, or he had a book out. WK: 1:34:54 Uh, and, and the thing I respect the most about him is he had ample opportunity to reduce his sentence, um, and he stuck by it, and he did every single hour. SM: 1:35:08 Um, Robert McNamara, WK: 1:35:11 Oh, this, this, I am getting closer to death, and I finally realized the error of my ways. So, I am so sorry I find, um, very disingenuous. Um, these guys knew what they were doing. SM: 1:35:24 Woodward and Bernstein, how important were they, names just stand out? WK: 1:35:31 They stand out. So, you know, it, it could be Smith and Jones. It could be, you know, Glick and Herman. Um, they stand out because they were very tenacious in a story that ultimately brought down the presidency. So, I think that time has shown Bob Woodward to be a decent author, a well, well written author, uh, one who still gets the good stuff. Um, some of his work is flawed, but a lot of it is good. I liked his, uh, his book on Clinton's first year, uh, the agenda is excellent. The book and the Supreme Court the brethren is very good. I-I think Carl Bernstein has not necessarily distinguished himself in the field of journalism at all. He, he, his flirtation with television was rather disappointing. His book about the Pope, uh, would that he co-authored, I forget who he c-co-authored it with, uh, was fairly well received, um, but I do not think that either one of them has necessarily turned out to be Pulitzer material. SM: 1:36:26 Um, the last two and then I am done, um, Dwight Eisenhower, and then the impact of the music that it had on the boomer generation. WK: 1:36:35 Okay, Dwight Eisenhower as a president or as a general? SM: 1:36:39 Just, just as boomers might think of him. WK: 1:36:41 Oh, well, the boomers would, would, would totally not care that he won the war or that he was the, the, um, commander in chief of the allied forces. Uh, but the one thing that he has in common with that job and also with the presidency, is a politician. He was a politician during World War Two, and he was a politician, uh, during the eight years that he was in office, he was America's grandfather. He was, I mean, how in the hell would you vote for? I mean, I can remember my parents having this conversation because they were lifelong Democrats, but voting for Eddie Stevenson, who was this aristocratic, very well spoken, um, you know, divorced man for presidency, you know, as opposed to Ike won the war, you know. And Ike was our grandfather. Ike told us, ever there, there now, everything will be okay. And, and by and large, from 1952 to 1960 everything was okay. Um, and then the last one was, who? WK: 1:37:38 Music, the music of the year, the [stuttering] Jimmy Hendrix- I do not think- SM: 1:37:38 all the great musicians and the music of that era. WK: 1:37:40 I think that the, um, the question about the music is always going to be which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did the music stimulate change, or did the change stimulate the music? And I think the answer is not to cop out, but I think the answer is both. Um, I go back to what I said about the Beatles, and I think that the Beatles were the most revolutionary thing about the 1960s and, and the fact that their-their popularity originally might owe, be owing in some fashion to the death of John Kennedy, may be an interesting sidebar, but the fact of the matter is th-that that not only did they own the 1960s but basically they ushered in an era were that anything, anything that was done by a British artist, just went right to the top of the chart, uh and some of it was terrific. I mean, you know, I mean, they ushered the way in for Led Zeppelin, and they offered the, you know, Jimi Hendrix was, was a guy with a lot of promise to he had a big drug problem that took his life. Janis Joplin was this kind of raggedy, but earthy and, and gutsy and ballsy, uh, funky singer who had, you know, same thing, she had a drug problem, and it ultimately took her life. Um, 1960s had more than its share of goofy love songs. I mean, not everything was, was the Eve of Destruction by Barry McGuire, you know, but, uh, certainly music played a significant role in it. You know, toward the latter part, much of the Beatles’ stuff addressed what was going on in culture. Um, there were certain artists like Joan Baez, who was not that popular, but, but whose music almost exclusively, uh, addressed what was going on in culture. Uh, interestingly enough, the crossover black artists, the Motown black artists, were the ones who would sing about, you know, things like love, universal stuff. Love, you left me. You broke my heart. Uh, where did our love go? The way you do, the things you do, things like that, but, but in that, in the quietness of that simplicity, there was a real revolution being born, white kids were really getting into black music. Instead of listening to Pat Boone sing fats, Domino's songs, or Elvis Duke, God knows how many songs that were originally done by black artists, there were now starting to hear black music by black artists and-and so in his own way [intercom interruption] In his own way, you, you have to give also a, a, a mention in the, in the 1960s to Barry Gordy, who's, who's personally a hero of mine, I-I one of my favorite interviews, if not the favorite in-interview of all time, because, um, it was not revolutionary music that sent the white kids to the to the record stores. It was, it was the universality of music. And then later on, groups like the temptations would do songs like ball of confusion. And later on, [intercom interruption] then and, and later on, uh, people like [intercom interruption] that Elias is a busy guy, uh later on, as these groups became very, very well established, they would, they would then bring in, you know, the social consciousness to the music. But originally it was all just, you know, it was, it was love songs, it was, you know, catchy tunes. And so, I mean, you really have to give you credit to Barry Gordon. SM: 1:41:00 I know big Marvin Gaye also did that, uh, controversial album, What’s Going On. WK: 1:41:04 What's going on, What's Going On. SM: 1:41:05 Got him in trouble too. WK: 1:41:06 What's Going On makes the hair on my knuckles stand up. Because basically what had happened was what Marvin had done really great rhythm and blues, bubble, not bubblegum, because Motown was never bubblegum. It always had an air of sophistication to it. But Marvin had done really great dance type music. And then just when Tammy Terrell died, who was a singing partner so often, uh, he just disappeared for a year, and he came back with What's going on. And What's going on was, o-oh, Barry Gordon hated it, you know, he hated it because he thought it did not have any sales potential and-and the fact of the matter is that Marvin had grown tremendously as an artist. And, uh, What's Going On was exactly the music for 1971. SM: 1:41:46 That is right. WK: 1:41:47 It was a hit. It was exactly what it was. SM: 1:41:50 I was here in Philly working for my brother in the summertime, for, uh, when I was in college, and I went over, I think somebody brought that out. I could not wait to play this. WK: 1:41:57 Yeah. SM: 1:41:57 Just every song on it brought goose bumps to you, it was right- WK: 1:42:01 Yeah, mercy, mercy me, you know. SM: 1:42:02 Right. WK: 1:42:02 Um, uh, so and I think that they, you know, do not forget, we did not start dealing with Vietnam in movies for seven or eight years after was over. SM: 1:42:19 Dear Honor was one of the first ones. WK: 1:42:20 Dear Honor, was one of the first ones, Coming Home was one of the first ones. The best one, though, was platoon, because it just, it was so raw, it was so in your face. It was so- SM: 1:42:23 Vets do not like that movie, though. WK: 1:42:23 Why? Smoking dope all the time. SM: 1:42:24 They feel it is, um, uh I am not exactly sure why they do not like it. They think it portrayed the Vietnam veteran and like- Yes, smoking dope, the killing, uh, is random killings, and that really upset them. And that was not all the look of Vietnam veteran was about, but images we did a program at our university with, uh, three or four Vietnam veterans, brought them back, and we had a Vietnamese student in our audience. We hired together Vietnamese students at Westchester. We brought Dan Fraley, um, who was one of the town people walked from the wall in Philly, and I interviewed him already, um, and Dennis fest, who had lost his legs in the war, and they were there, and they showed the movie, then they responded to the movie, and then it was all over. She was there in the audience, and she, you know, she came up and hugged both of them. Now, that was a memory I will never forget, because her parents were over there at the time when she was a baby. She does not remember, but, uh, she was a baby, and it was just a fact that she forgave that the American soldier. So, the memories- WK: 1:43:16 It is what I told you before, that is one of the real ironies of this whole thing. The Americans are not mad at Vietnamese. The Vietnamese are not mad at the Americans, so what gives? I got to go. SM: 1:43:31 Yeah, Wally. Thank you very much, uh. WK: 1:43:32 Okay, my pleasure. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wally Kennedy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kennedy, Wally ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Radio journalists; Kennedy, Wally--Interviews Description An account of the resource Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-02-15 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.75a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.75b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 103:36 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d01c78979a6950ca89df1732559549b2.jpg 3ad84f24c1561a76c5d7c5f33c11f954 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ada3be9b38cd77c8da1982e51793d24e.mp3 fb547a1e19123d6c2bd46c5ae496fabe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1997-07-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Harry Gaffney Language English Digital Publisher BInghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 112:37 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Harry Gaffney is an educator, administrator, and Vietnam War veteran. He currently is the CEO of Strategic Leadership Management. Gaffney graduated from St. Joseph's University with a Bachelor's degree in English and Villanova with a Master's degree in Educational Administration. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:769,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0}">Harry Gaffney is an educator, administrator, and Vietnam War veteran. He currently is the CEO of Strategic Leadership Management. Gaffney graduated from St. Joseph's University with a Bachelor's degree in English and Villanova with a Master's degree in Educational Administration. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; Civil Disobedience; Kent State University; Students for a Democratic Society; Anti-War Movement; Weather Underground; Lyndon Johnson; Robert McNamara; Women's Rights Movement; Decolonization; Black Panthers; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Drug Culture; Nonviolence; Class Privilege; Civil Rights Movement; Communal Movement; Woodstock; Folk Song Revival; Black Power; Separation; Malcolm X.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:515,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:16370588},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Baby boom generation; Civil Disobedience; Kent State University; Students for a Democratic Society; Anti-War Movement; Weather Underground; Lyndon Johnson; Robert McNamara; Women's Rights Movement; Decolonization; Black Panthers; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Drug Culture; Nonviolence; Class Privilege; Civil Rights Movement; Communal Movement; Woodstock; Folk Song Revival; Black Power; Separation; Malcolm X.</span> Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Educators; Gaffney, Harry--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harry Gaffney Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gaffney, Harry ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Educators; Gaffney, Harry--Interviews Description An account of the resource Harry Gaffney is an educator, administrator, and Vietnam War veteran. He currently is the CEO of Strategic Leadership Management. Gaffney graduated from St. Joseph's University with a Bachelor's degree in English and Villanova with a Master's degree in Educational Administration. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-07-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.105a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.105b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 112:37 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/32264e48644f38df8546aeb227dd4a2b.jpg 60e741077397563658a521e7bce10d76 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3db5a7c4f78e21dc590b59cf38d0fe35.mp3 7058cd8ccdc32bf52785b0090d256f28 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1997-07-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ronald D. Castille Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Ronald D. Castille served on the US Supreme Court in Pennsylvania from 1994 to 2014 and was promoted to the Chief Justice in 2008, staying until 2014. Castille retired from office at the age of 70. He received his Bachelor's degree in Economics from Auburn University. He joined the U.S Marine Corps and received several awards along his journey. Castille received his Juris Doctorate from the University of Virginia School of Law after his medical retirement from the Marine Corps.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:7043,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Ronald D. Castille served on the US Supreme Court in Pennsylvania from 1994 to 2014 and was promoted to the Chief Justice in 2008, staying until 2014. Castille retired from office at the age of 70. He received his Bachelor's degree in Economics from Auburn University. He joined the U.S Marine Corps and received several awards along his journey. Castille received his Juris Doctorate from the University of Virginia School of Law after his medical retirement from the Marine Corps.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Anti-war protest; Civil rights movement; William Buckley; Bill Buckley; Hippies; Sexual Revolution; Drugs; the Vietnam War; Counterculture; Activism; Equality; Jim Crow; Segregation; Black Panthers; Feminism; Gay Rights; Native American Movement; Baby boom generation.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Anti-war protest; Civil rights movement; William Buckley; Bill Buckley; Hippies; Sexual Revolution; Drugs; the Vietnam War; Counterculture; Activism; Equality; Jim Crow; Segregation; Black Panthers; Feminism; Gay Rights; Native American Movement; Baby boom generation</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 73:36 Subject LCSH Marines; Pennsylvania. Supreme Court; Judges; Castille, Ronald D.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ron Castille Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 16 July 1997 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:05): So, I am going to do that here today as well. Thanks again for taking time out of your busy schedule. First question I would like to ask deals with the issue of, how much time do we have today? We have about an hour? RC (00:00:19): Yeah. Because we have to take a break at about three o'clock real quick to go ahead and get free ice cream sundaes. SM (00:00:26): And then we can come back? RC (00:00:27): Yeah, they are bringing them to the floor. SM (00:00:28): Oh great. RC (00:00:29): I guess some kind of commercial deal by the [inaudible]. SM (00:00:34): I saw that in the hallway there, near the elevator. First question is today I have seen a lot of the media that commentators like George Will, I have even heard [inaudible] and several individuals, politicians from both the Democratic and Republican side who will look at the issues facing America today and the problems we have in America today and they will pinpoint them back to when the boomers were young basically blaming the problems on boomers for what is happening in America today. I would like your thoughts, just your personal thoughts from whether that is true historically, and from your own personal experience what your thoughts on the boomers’ impact and linkage with the problems of today in America. RC (00:01:19): I guess it did impact society in that just the opposite of what JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Well that era sort of got away from that what I can do for [inaudible]. They go their individual rights elevated above everything else. It became kind of selfish to some extent in that the focus was not on the greater good of society but was on whatever made them happy. Hence all that stuff about free love, and dodging the draft, and what is good for me is what is right. So the focus became inward rather than outward. And we're probably only just starting to come back around. SM (00:02:14): So, in a sense you are kind of in agreement with those social commentators that a lot of the things today in America, whether it be the breakup of the American family, which is of course the high divorce rate we see today, the drug culture amongst young people which is on the increase, some of the strife we have, the lack of respect oftentimes for authority figures. You see direct relation to the boomer. It is a bloomer quality. RC (00:02:38): Yeah, I see that. It is all to that time. I kind of grew up in the (19)50s. That was the country and the parents and the church, [inaudible] the institutions of government held in high esteem [inaudible] Vietnam [inaudible]. For me it is all [inaudible]. The nation where everybody thought, at one time they thought the marijuana was really bad [inaudible]. It might have been the drug of choices at the schools, at the law school in (19)69, (19)68, graduated in (19)71. Just one side were the juicers, which [inaudible] and the doper is the one that smoked marijuana. I have got people that were experimenting with drugs and [inaudible] it is I guess the taboo that drugs were that [inaudible]. SM (00:03:37): Check your [inaudible]. That will do fine. What do you feel is the overall impact of the boomer generation, if you look at the year 1997 as we are heading into 1998? This is kind of a two-part question. What has been the overall impact of boomers on America? Because boomers right now are reaching 50. Because boomers are categorized as people who were born between 1946 and 1964. And what would you say would be the positive qualities and the negative qualities of the boomer generation? RC (00:04:19): The negative, some of that I just spoke of. The elevation of individual rights over the collective common good. I guess the positive things, sure they make people a little more questioning rather than just going along with the institutions of society and questions about how they function, and some of the problems they have been ignored were brought to the forefront. So, there was more of a typical questioning of what was going around their society. The civil rights movements, the [inaudible], which was partly the boomer generation at the same time. And the [inaudible] all these different rights. Like the stop and search, and the suppression it was forward in the (19)60s. To some extent that is healthy questioning the society and what it is all about, what it does and how it handles some of the problems. But because we're better off today than we were back then, certain groups are always complaining about racism, if you could transport them from today back to the (19)60s you would find a totally different problem. I went to Auburn in Alabama, I graduated in (19)66, and I think in (19)65 was when they integrated [inaudible]. [inaudible] about diversity at Auburn. So, it was an all-white school [inaudible] civil rights because of that. So, I guess it was helping that they questioned society what was provided to people. So healthy skepticism and a willingness to make things better [inaudible]. SM (00:06:16): One of the things that I am trying to get at is, because I work in a college environment today, and boomers were young once. There is a lot of activism happening during that era, but the overall impact that boomers have had on their children. I bring this in because I feel that looking at a term that was often used in those times, the generation gap. That was the world war two generation, the boomers, the gap that happened there. And now if there is such a gap between boomers and their children, which is generation Xers. Could you comment on your thoughts of that time using your own metaphor of your life? Any experiences you may have had regarding that generation gap. And also comparing that to a generation gap of today. RC (00:07:00): I guess back in the (19)60s there was a real generation gap once people started wearing long hair and listening to rock and roll. So yeah, that really was not the change or the gap that they referred to was [inaudible] age and changing totally. That Glenn Miller era, Elvis Presley and The Beatles. I think they [inaudible] trending styles. [inaudible] with whatever they were told and what was handed out to them. [inaudible] the IRME sort of started going back to as far as I can tell is trying to get more altruistic and involved in society [inaudible], no protests [inaudible]. SM (00:07:53): Occasionally there will be protests, especially over issues like lack of representation on a student newspaper. African-American students might do that, and that is happened in the last couple of years at different universities. Lack of representation, but other than that no. I have not seen a whole lot. RC (00:08:10): That is what's changed. They are more willing to be, I would not say docile, but believe that the institution of society serves a function, and they have some good. [inaudible] just like, let us tear it down and start all over, [inaudible]. Then an organization like the SDS or weatherman frequency that we have. SM (00:08:36): No? RC (00:08:36): No that is the difference, I think [inaudible 00:08:38] were things that made this country strong over the years, morality. But unless you're just like us aides. I think they like to drink beer and stuff more, do not they? SM (00:08:48): It is a definite yes. RC (00:08:51): Well that is not a norm back in the (19)50s. SM (00:08:54): Party time was a very important term. This takes right into another aspect, activism. Activism was always an adjective to describe many of the boomers, but we know from studying sociology and so forth that only 15 percent of the 76 million boomers were really active. It could be liberals or conservatives, but it really got involved in some aspect of the issues of the time. And 85 percent really just went on with their daily lives, so to speak. Your thoughts on the concept of activism at that time? And whether that activism has transferred into boomers lives as they have approached 50. And whether they have been able to transfer that activism to their children. RC (00:09:37): I do not know about their children, [inaudible] children. Activism, the most active people of every-every color. [inaudible] and marching, and not willing to have a rational conversation, not willing to work [inaudible] active people of that time. I went to law school. I was I just at the battle in Vietnam. I spent 15 months in a hospital in Virginia. And at that time there was all those campus protests and all that stuff. It seemed that Virginia, [inaudible] got a small minority out there just yelling and waving the Viet Cong flag [inaudible]. Well, the institution was like college campus, functioning student newspaper, fraternities and things like that. So there probably was a small group of activists. I do not even think those people are activists anymore unless they are [inaudible] communities trying to make their [inaudible] traditional [inaudible] school and things like that [inaudible]. SM (00:10:41): [inaudible], yeah. RC (00:10:42): If they were to walk out today, and you say how many other people are there like this? [inaudible ]. My perspective, [inaudible] is tainted to some extent. There have always been elected officials where we could have bettered society. SM (00:10:59): Would not you say though that what you're doing with your life is carrying out some of that activism. Going on to become a lawyer, going on to become a judge. And then you ran for political office. One of the most admirable qualities- RC (00:11:10): I am a [inaudible], I am not an activist. I was always involved in things. I was in the student body in high school, I went to Air Corps Marines, and that drove me to [inaudible] always be the best. And [inaudible] in student counsel in college too. Senator [inaudible]. So, he started to do that, I was always active in that sense and in that sense without more [inaudible] the existing system. When I was in law school I was the Vice President of the law school, I was one of the editors of the-the law school students’ newspaper. I was doing that. And I was elected DA two times here in the Supreme Court. It is not activism, I think they look at activism as destructive kind of stuff. I am more of a dragging on of tradition. Some people would call me reactionary. SM (00:12:12): But I can give you a [inaudible] Harry told me about that if you're talking about your contribution to society being a judge and a lawyer, that you got involved with the Vietnam Memorial here in Philadelphia. And the contribution to society and showed activism there of seeing something that needed to be done and doing it. That was certainly activism at its finest. RC (00:12:33): Yeah, that was a healing sort of thing. Everybody does a preliminary when I was in law school. There was probably a bunch of guys in Vietnam [inaudible] was an assistant DA. There were guys that he knew and served [inaudible]. I brought people all over the city. We have talked about it, [inaudible] publicity that I have because of the [inaudible]. That was sort of a healing tone. It felt like [inaudible]. SM (00:13:01): [inaudible] year anniversary coming up. RC (00:13:02): Yeah [inaudible]. We did a good job on that one [inaudible] $2 million. I was actually and owner of the memorial at one time because [inaudible] gave us a property but on the condition that we turn it over to the Fairmount Park after we are through. But the Fairmount Park did not want it because I know [inaudible] raised X hundred thousands of dollars more from- SM (00:13:29): The ends of this issue a [inaudible]. RC (00:13:32): [inaudible] I am on the board of the boy scouts, I am the US Ward[inaudible] handicap people are [inaudible] some kid of activities that help. Then we have sports [inaudible] it was more of the traditional sense of prolong what I think are good things- SM (00:13:57): [inaudible] the two major issues of boomers was certainly the Vietnam War and the civil rights movement. And your point-blank thoughts on how important the boomers were in ending this war. Whether it is direct response to the students who were protesting on college campuses. Again, probably that 15 percent that were involved. How important were they in ending the war and what was the reason that the war ended? RC (00:14:22): They probably had some input in it. They actually got to see war a lot more than we did because of television. The Korea War, they did not have towers and TV and what brought things home pretty radically to the people. And then [inaudible] it was in your living room. So [inaudible] was [inaudible] a lot of the protest. None of them want to be there and get shot [inaudible] pressure. Probably rethink their positions. And then a lot of people came with us military guys that came back from Vietnam and started raising hell about it. [inaudible] what they did [inaudible] return their medals and speak out against the was saying [inaudible] the whole thing was misguided and screwed up. I think when those kinds of people started raising their voices too- SM (00:15:17): And their [inaudible] RC (00:15:17): Yeah. SM (00:15:17): [inaudible] RC (00:15:18): Yeah, they have [inaudible] saw them on TV [inaudible] educational channel. I think it is probably one of those [inaudible]. Yeah, when those people start speaking up [inaudible] students handled with care. We do not want people coming back and complaining about the screwed up [inaudible] lost. The thing was prolonged for years. They played a role [inaudible]. SM (00:15:44): Also so when Jack Smith said from ABC news, because I interviewed him last fall he point blank said that the main reason why this war ended was when the body bags started coming home and mothers and fathers and middle America saw it on television. Said there's no other reason why, that is the reason why. Do you agree with that? RC (00:16:04): I absolutely agree with that. The first one where you could get a 15 minutes of combat right at dinner. This was the-the first-time war was an actual war, the reality of it was brought home by the [inaudible]. We did not get to see the whole thing. That is probably the military's biggest mistake was letting the reporters out into the field to do whatever they wanted. SM (00:16:31): Had more controls on that during the Gulf war. Remember they had to stay back there and they did not allow them. RC (00:16:36): They had to stay in the rear with the gear and they give you a brief. SM (00:16:39): How important were the boomers in the civil rights movement? RC (00:16:43): They were important too. I think other than the blacks down in south, if nobody came down to help them it would probably have still been the same. And the college kids were spending their summers down there. [inaudible] that I was in the south at the time so I can put the [inaudible] tremendously. Contested the old John Crow laws. SM (00:17:04): Have you changed your opinions at all on the boomers for the last 25 years? Your thoughts when you were a college student at Auburn, and then when you were a young professional and coming back from the war. Then to go through rehab and then now as a judge. Do you look at things differently or are you pretty consistent in your thoughts? RC (00:17:22): I am probably pretty consistent in my thoughts. A bunch of them were jerks, a bunch of them were cowards, [inaudible]. Or cutting back on the use of drugs. Some guys that served in Vietnam were addicts and stuff like that. I respected those individuals. I actually respected the people that said [inaudible]. The others I [inaudible] wen to Sweden and Canada. I hope they never come back. [inaudible]. Those individuals that totally evaded all responsibility. SM (00:18:10): [inaudible] all the respect of, if you were to have a meeting with several of those individuals to sit down and have a civil dialogue, or you just would not even deal with them? RC (00:18:19): I have dealt with them. One guy was John [inaudible] who we dealt with. SM (00:18:23): That is right, the one that Howard stern destroyed. RC (00:18:30): He was really helpful to us in [inaudible]. But he never served in the military, he was a war protestor himself. But no, he did not go to Canada or wherever. He might have had a deferment and everything. But I guess those people were misguided to some extent in that they were protesting the war and did not even have content. They started seeing the light after [inaudible 00:18:57]. So I work with people like that. The ones I do not like nowadays are the ones who were in Vietnam when they were in the military when they [inaudible]. SM (00:19:12): Oh, I know that because I have been going down to them a lot the last couple of years to the ceremonies on Veterans Day and Memorial Day. And I will never forget that my conversation with Joe Galloway. I do not know if you know him? RC (00:19:24): [inaudible] yeah. SM (00:19:24): Yeah, he was US news [inaudible] and wrote report, he wrote When Were Young Once. That was an [inaudible]. I interviewed him and he said, that is the thing that upsets him the most. You cannot believe how many Vietnam imposters there are in there at the ceremonies. Yes, and they lie and they sit there and they actually have a medals on. There is no question that is the... We have got a target there because that is what Joe was talking about too. RC (00:19:50): [inaudible] he was the worst of them all. [inaudible]. It was a human example of stark cowardice [inaudible]. SM (00:20:02): Later in the interview we are going to go over some names here, but now that you have mentioned his name, your thoughts on that book in retrospect. Whether you bought the book or have you read the book, your thoughts about that, knowing about 1967, that he knew back then that the war was bad mistake. RC (00:20:20): He was a coward, he did not [inaudible]. He gave a speech to Valley Forge Military Academy, a graduating class. Mentioned him [inaudible] in the military [inaudible] say what you think is correct. And this otherwise, and not mention [inaudible] power he was when he came to his conclusion that the war was wrong in (19)67. That is something like seven to 10,000 dead. But he did not say one thing to Johnson. [inaudible] and just never said one thing about it until 20 years later. SM (00:20:54): And one of the characteristics that boomers used to say, we are the most unique generation in American history. We are different than any generation that proceeded us. And because of the times with the civil rights, protests against the Vietnam War, the women's movement, the Native American movement, there were a lot of movements at that time. There was somewhat of an arrogance and the cockiness that the boomers at that time felt they were the most unique generation. Some may still feel that. Your thoughts on that terminology that the boomer generation is the most unique generation in American history. RC (00:21:25): They were just a collection of assholes. Probably the most unique generation we have ever had is the people that moved out of the east coast of the United States. They were going into Kentucky and Tennessee. I always go to these state parks and I look at these things and say, man can you imagine somebody driving a wagon through this place. [inaudible] unbelievable hardship to settle in a country. So the people who moved out of the original colonies and moved across the nation to California who's encompassing more than one generation. But the boomer generation [inaudible] danger was you might get drafted and go to Vietnam. Most of the time you will not be near that much danger in Vietnam. SM (00:22:15): Of the 3 million that served in Vietnam, how many actually served on the front lines? RC (00:22:20): [inaudible] something about that where they said for every soldier [inaudible] had had nine people packing them up. SM (00:22:24): This feeling that many hand that we are going to change the world in a positive way, that was a mentality in 1968, in 1997. Have they? RC (00:22:38): The generation before them is the generation that changed the world, the world war two people when they came back. American was a different place pre-world war two and then after world war two, [inaudible] the country up until the Bush [inaudible 00:22:55] Strongly against communism, Vietnam being part of it. But they held on against communism, and when those individuals that came back [inaudible] I am serving four years in the war I was just strongly as a country man [inaudible]. SM (00:23:14): I referred earlier to the fact that sociologists and historians will say that 15 percent of the boomers, which is 76 million, really got involved with some sort of activism. And that could be liberals or conservatives. Whatever their stance was at that time on different issues. Some have said that that is a lessening of the impact of this generation has had, because they will say only 15 percent were really involved, 85 percent went on with their lives and did not really care about the issues. And thus, when you look at today and you see that their children do not vote and they do not vote that that 85 percent is having greater impact than the 15 percent as they have gotten older. Your thoughts on that and whether you feel that that kind of mentality is lessening the impact again on the boomers and their involvement in the issues of the time. Whether it be against racism, sexism, some of the issues linked to the movements. RC (00:24:04): I do not really know. Are you saying that they had no impact at 15 percent? SM (00:24:12): No, they had impact, but by saying that they had only 15 percent of them were involved was really 85 percent were not involved. RC (00:24:21): And they were involved in it at some extent in that they were carrying on the tradition of our society, the institutions, home, family, jobs. SM (00:24:32): They were involved. RC (00:24:32): To that extent though they have been part of what America is all about. [inaudible] by the activists. People talking about the way that you should be. Why should we take everything verbatim or per se or [inaudible] follow along, let us have some questions. Which I think I think that generation did that asking questions. And it did help change the [inaudible] problems of society. In the (19)60s with the civil rights movement, all this questioning of the status quo that everybody could be talking about it and [inaudible] who has to decide [inaudible] the debates started back in [inaudible] there was no debate in the (19)50s [inaudible]. SM (00:25:25): I have been to the Vietnam Memorial, we got four more minutes on this side of the tape, I have been to the Vietnam Memorial many times. I am sure you have in Washington. Obviously when that wall was built, it was meant to be a nonpolitical statement. It was to pay on honor tribute to those who served. Knowing that in this nation the Vietnam veterans were not treated properly when they returned. And it was in a Jan Scrubs and the people involved in that, they did a tremendous job. And they certainly have encouraged many morals around the country like you that were involved in here as a nonpolitical entity. So, we were getting into the aspect of one of the goals of that wall, which was the healing. The healing of not only the Vietnam veterans and their families and loved ones. But just basically the divisions that took place in America at that time, even by those who were for and against the war. Those who served those who did not serve. Your thoughts on the healing process in America as 1997 with respect to, has the nation healed from this war? Which was one of the goals of the wall. And has it healed up certain groups more than others? And in what areas do we still have a long way to go with respect to healing and bringing our nation together because there were so many divisions at that time? RC (00:26:46): Well actually the first thing that brought the healing was when they had the unknown soldier from Vietnam [inaudible] at Washington. People filed by that by the millions I guess. [inaudible] realize, yes Anne. Anne (00:27:06): Pardon me, I just want to let you know that it is ice cream. RC (00:27:08): Okay. SM (00:27:12): People started filing by that. RC (00:27:15): [inaudible] then realizing that this guy gave up his life for his [inaudible] in Vietnam, it is still a dead American [inaudible]. That was really the first step, that soldier. And then the second one was the wall. When they built that that caused some problems too because to look at a black gash in another [inaudible]. It was pretty impressive to see [inaudible] two of those were really the beginning to getting over the Vietnam war. [inaudible] when it was the Gulf war [inaudible] when I served in [inaudible] to Washington [inaudible] started painting. There is still parts of society that think there is no healing. The blacks are real with the world. I think most of the problems commonly caused by Vietnam are probably behind us. SM (00:28:17): [inaudible]. Again, and we will go to the ice cream. The issue of the divisions. I have been to the wall and had a chance to try to get an ambiance or feel. I feel I must be there to get a feel amongst the veterans as I talked to them. I Got to know Jan and Joe Galloway and some of the people down there. I have brought students to the wall. I do hear things like we can never forgive Bill Clinton, he was the typical draft dodger. We will never forgive Jane Fonda. And obviously she's a lightning rod. But the question is, is this an issue in the lives of Vietnam veterans or is it an issue in your life that, I have moved on with my life time heals everything, the wall was doing a great job, but the divisions of that time, tremendous divisiveness, the lax, the shouting, the disrespect, all these qualities that some people may say have been transferred today into our everyday dialogue. Is it a direct result of that time? And where is the healing over some of these things? RC (00:29:25): I guess we are pretty [inaudible]. I do not think people like Clinton would go to clearly manipulate the system. To an extent they did not like [inaudible] because he had [inaudible]. One-time government had [inaudible] of the guy [inaudible]. The cherry-picked people on the [inaudible]. People like [inaudible] Clinton did it [inaudible] then he bailed out and went to Canada. SM (00:29:53): Fulbright helped him, Senator Fulbright was one of the biggest advocates against the war eventually. RC (00:30:00): I will not say too much, [inaudible] politicians can be. SM (00:30:02): Do you want to get that ice cream now, and [inaudible]. What are your thoughts on people like David Horowitz, or anybody from the left at that era who have become conservatives to the extreme right. Which David Horowitz has become. And of course, he was the editor at Ramparts magazine, now he is one of the leading conservatives going around the country bashing the boomers who were protesting the war and issues of civil rights. Your thoughts on those people who were on the left, who have just totally did an about face and that are condemning those who did not. RC (00:30:45): Maybe they saw the light. Maybe they saw that they were wrong. You cannot condemn a person. You can point it out that he was wrong, and then try to make amends for it. That just sounds like what the guy is trying to do. Could have made a moon [inaudible]. SM (00:31:02): He is one of the biggest names out there now, of people on the college campus, speaking to a lot of different issues like that. RC (00:31:09): People actually come here? SM (00:31:10): Yes, he is drawing good numbers. RC (00:31:13): I was always amazed too [inaudible] I was running for DA or something. They said come [inaudible] be like two people, three people. SM (00:31:29): So [inaudible]. RC (00:31:33): So, I guess the liberal [inaudible] sort of party in the background. Have you ever studied [inaudible] to some extent he was. SM (00:31:43): Just check this man. What do you feel your impact has been on society as a boomer? A person who now is in a very prestigious position. But if you were to look at your, as boomers felt they were going to be change agents for the betterment of the world, do you feel as a boomer or a little bit older than a boomer that you fall in that category? RC (00:32:10): [inaudible] I was born in (19)44. SM (00:32:13): You are in that area because a lot of people [inaudible] feel they are boomers right up to 55 and 56, even though they do not fall into the category. RC (00:32:23): [inaudible] maybe I have had some impact on society. Being an assistant DA, clearing the streets of criminals has some impact. [inaudible] being the DA of the city. Just fix it. It has had some impact on society. And with all the people on death row, it does not matter who [inaudible]. And then this job I am in now is in Speak with Justice, we have an impact on the law an- the structure of [inaudible]. I am trying to bring our hardcore [inaudible] towards the leftist positions [inaudible] personal rights [inaudible] everything else. SM (00:33:12): Do you see yourself running for political office again down the road? RC (00:33:18): Well I do not know, I could probably be in this job for 20 years [inaudible]. But what I am doing in this job is high level work. [inaudible] respect most of us. Mostly the lawyers. A larger section of society, never can say never. That is what my buddy Bob Dole is going to be president. I might have a shot at the US Supreme Court. What does a [inaudible] war veteran [inaudible]. I might someday [inaudible]. The way politics are now it is a whole different subject. Airing it all on TV and all negative with your opponents. SM (00:34:04): What is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? RC (00:34:09): It would probably be much [inaudible] anything specific. [inaudible] that make people a little more skeptical and questioning about what goes on in society. [inaudible] anybody suggest anything. SM (00:34:26): [inaudible] would say women have gotten better equality over time because of the movement. RC (00:34:34): I guess I could [inaudible] civil rights. SM (00:34:37): Straight into the [inaudible] lasting legacy, but historians always have this mentality. Well the best history books are yet to be written. And or the best history books will be written in 50 years or 25 years. I am trying to look down the road 25 to 50 years when supposedly the best books are going to be written. Well, how do you think historians are going to treat that period from the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, during those times. The impact on America is changing [inaudible]. RC (00:35:07): I think they are going to probably see the impact on the world, what we did to the world specifically [inaudible] and some of its allies’ cause [inaudible] that is 11 a year [inaudible] to some extent totalitarian. But one thing is our system of government and our economics system and the freedoms that are [inaudible]. Someone is going to [inaudible] that would be known as tox Americana. Just remind [inaudible] you got to go back to the early (19)60s or (19)70s. That is when there was to some extent [inaudible]. You can always go back to world war two, and then America stepping into Korea. [inaudible] a stronger face against communism. [inaudible] Russia is a [inaudible] country now. I guess the Russians must be [inaudible] to [inaudible] stay strong. And then we go in there and [inaudible] collapse. Nothing [inaudible]. To an extent all the generations had their war too. SM (00:36:24): Back to a question we talked about earlier about the healing process within the generation. Do you think it's possible to heal within a generation if the differences in opinions were so extreme? If so, is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Some of this book, project dealing with metaphors people's lives and their opinions historically and personally, is to say that there is no really clear-cut answers. There just needs to be better understanding how people felt. So that this mentality of saying that my opinion's better than someone else's or the pointing of fingers. We need to just really sit down and try to understand people better. How do you feel again about this healing? The effort to heal, Especially from the divisions of the war. RC (00:37:12): [inaudible] I guess all you really need to do is talk to a person. [inaudible]. I will never forgive the people [inaudible] Canada. [inaudible] Clinton [inaudible] Jane Fonda always preaching about the war itself [inaudible]. And then there is [inaudible] Americans [inaudible] let us lose the women thing or just being [inaudible]. SM (00:37:48): How would you compare people who say that the Vietnam War, it may not have been the civil war in America of the 1860s, but it still was a civil war and it was a coming civil war. We were pretty close to a civil war. And your thoughts on people who thought that the many people went to their graves after the civil war without healing toward the other side or forgiving the other side. And that this generation of boomers are going to be going to their graves with still the bitterness in their heart. Thoughts on that kind of thought. RC (00:38:24): Well I do not really know if anybody is bitter anymore. I lost a leg in Vietnam and I am not bitter about having [inaudible]. I do not think there is a lot of people that to me seem to give much thought about it anymore. [inaudible] every waking moment or dwelling moment. [inaudible] is 25 years old and whether it is [inaudible]. SM (00:38:58): How about this issue with trust? People will say, and again, I am using terminology, but we sense that there is a lack of trust in America today toward elected officials, people in positions of power and responsibility, whether they be Governors, Congressmen, Senators, principles of high schools. RC (00:39:17): Supreme Court Justices. SM (00:39:18): Right, Supreme Court Justices, Ministers, CEO, heads of corporations. Because the establishment, there was an attack against the establishment at that time. And that some of the mentality is never trusted people in positions of power and responsibility. And somehow that carried on to the children of today the Xers. Your thoughts on that and where we are in America with respect to trust and how serious that is in American thing. RC (00:39:43): I think I mentioned earlier we had a sense of skepticism in the institutions of [inaudible]. Skepticism is still there. Yeah, maybe it is good [inaudible] you cannot just go [inaudible], I think that is just skepticism which [inaudible]. SM (00:40:12): The lack of trust all the young people have [inaudible] many boomers who are now over 50. RC (00:40:16): I do not know if it is a lack of trust or if it is skepticism. SM (00:40:17): Okay. RC (00:40:18): We accept it we just do not [inaudible] newspapers so they would do something [inaudible]. Not some big investigation. [inaudible] as they are. [inaudible] say what is this really about, was it a political move, was it this and that. So since [inaudible] question by the press, it is the next step that may be more cynical that everybody else. SM (00:40:52): As person who served and went to war, lost a leg, but really went when your nation called, do you feel strongly toward those who did the same? And I will come back, what are your thoughts as a person cared about America and then saw elected officials lie to America, Lyndon Johnson and some people say the Gulf and [inaudible] revolution was made up. We never really should have gone to war. So how Johnson treated the war, obviously you have already made commentary on McNamara, who ran the war. Or did not [inaudible]. And then what you saw with Nixon and Watergate. And then just a lack of trust in public officials because they lied to the Americans. And yet you went to Vietnam, served your country. And then you see the politicians back home lying. Just your thoughts. It does not have to do with you being a Republican or Democrat, just being human. Just your thoughts on those leaders of those times. RC (00:41:49): Yeah, there's a lot of veterans [inaudible]. I remember I had taken [inaudible 00:41:59]. I think we were sitting [inaudible] book and donate it to some veteran’s hospital or something [inaudible]. What was the question [inaudible]? SM (00:42:16): Just your thoughts on the impact it had on you after you served, came back and then saw all this and witnessed all this. What you are feeling as a young man. And then but you still went on and served your country and you are going [inaudible] office. And you have done a lot of good things, but still it had to have an impact on you in some way. RC (00:42:34): [inaudible] impact on me was [inaudible] when I was in Vietnam. It only took me about two weeks to figure out [inaudible] screwed up. And then that is the first thing you did when you got there they sat us [inaudible] rules of engagement. Do not fire at them unless you are [inaudible] casually. Then they would send you out on some stupid patrol when you come back, they'd send you out again on another stupid patrol. [inaudible] that is what we did, that is how it was doomed to fail. [inaudible]. SM (00:43:17): Did you feel when you were going to go to political office, I am never going to be in like Richard Nixon, Lyndon Johnson or Robert McNamara? [inaudible 00:43:2] that was an inspiration to be better than them? RC (00:43:27): I guess I did go over to [inaudible] teach you a system to use [inaudible] trial advocacy and structure of the DA's office. Got these new DA's in [inaudible] your word is your bond [inaudible] people trust you [inaudible]. [inaudible] that is what people would trust [inaudible]. There is always going to be a first for people [inaudible]. So maybe let us say all these guys filled in like they did with Johnson [inaudible] suckered into a war that we could have won but did not win. SM (00:44:17): All the events when you read on from that period, from high school, college years and the years that you served, one event in America, one event that stands out of all others that had the greatest impact on you, what was that event? RC (00:44:31): Event in America? SM (00:44:34): Yeah, at that time it could be in Vietnam or there was one specific instance. People say the assassination of John Kennedy. Everything is different, everybody said a different [inaudible]. RC (00:44:49): [inaudible]. SM (00:44:54): Kennedy was that experience of his dad telling him that. RC (00:44:56): [inaudible]. SM (00:45:04): Experience informed who you are, that you were injured? RC (00:45:15): [inaudible] a different person, that is for sure. I will not stay in the [inaudible]. SM (00:45:16): One of the terms that always comes out of the youth of the (19)60s is the concept of empowerment, feeling that my voice counts, that people are listening to me. And so students on college campuses, even though they may have been radical and doing a lot of these things, there was a sense of maybe some might say euphoria, but there was a sense of empowerment that I can be a change agent. I am going to help end this war. I am going to help have civil rights and equality for a lot of different people in America. Do you feel this empowerment has continued amongst the 70 something million boomers as they have gone into adult life. And do you feel they have transferred this to their children, this sense of empowerment, which is basically self-esteem? RC (00:45:56): I guess that is one of the changes that happened in the (19)60s from the (19)50s. It seemed like in the (19)50s and early (19)60s the older you were the more you were respected and listened to. If you were young you were just the opposite, you were not listened to. So [inaudible] the younger folks with the experience of [inaudible] free speech [inaudible] school [inaudible] wrote an editorial about that. [inaudible] are you saying what a good thing it was [inaudible] the university [inaudible] your kids. SM (00:46:38): [inaudible]. RC (00:46:39): That is changed entirely. I guess Kennedy [inaudible] that when this started [inaudible]. And so, the-the thinking is I got him, a college kid, [inaudible] somebody ought to listen to him. But I think that still carries on, we still have young people today, we dismiss them just because they're young. Kids can have good ideas and kids can participate [inaudible 00:47:09]. That was probably one of the main [inaudible] in our society [inaudible]. SM (00:47:18): What event do you think defines the boomers then? And not your personal experience, but if there was one event in that timeframe [inaudible] that really defines the boomers. RC (00:47:28): Obviously, I could not ignore the [inaudible] it was just what was happening. Civil rights and women's rights [inaudible]. SM (00:47:37): Coalition of many things? RC (00:47:38): Yeah, [inaudible]. SM (00:47:44): I am going to just list a lot of names here. Just your overall, maybe a couple of sentences, thoughts on each of them. Positive or negative, your thoughts on them and maybe the thoughts that boomers may have had for these people. The first two are Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden. RC (00:48:00): She was a traitor, she should still get prosecuted. I know she tried to apologize a couple of years ago [inaudible]. She has never be forgiven [inaudible]. I think somebody [inaudible] of her sitting in that anti-aircraft gun, [inaudible] Jane the star. And [inaudible] Vietnam [inaudible]. SM (00:48:18): Tom Hayden. RC (00:48:18): I do not know if [inaudible] protester or hell raiser, [inaudible] in California [inaudible]. I saw that [inaudible]. SM (00:48:43): I saw them at Kent State. I saw them at the fourth anniversary of the killings at Kent State, and they were not speaking, they came together. And I will never forget being in that room with them, talking about what happened at Kent State, it was amazing. But she was certainly different. How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin the-the Yippies. RC (00:49:05): They were just a bunch of nutty guys that is all. If today you saw them you would say, man what are these guys? It's like some kind of throwbacks or some kind of hippies. SM (00:49:17): You remember when Abbie Hoffman died, it was in the news. He died over in Bucks County, he had $2,500 in the bank and he had given all of the money away to help people. And he left a note, and the note said that he killed himself. He was an impressive man. But no one was ever listening to me so he just did not want to go on with his life because one was listening anymore. And I said, well maybe the eccentricity is on this man, but are many boomers feeling the same way who cared about the issues of that time? And maybe society is not treating those issues the same way as they did then. Like young people are not listening as much to those issues. And that is why it kind of affects more boomers than just an Abbie Hoffman. Are people listening anymore to some of those issues? RC (00:50:05): [inaudible] I did not forget what Abbie Hoffman [inaudible]. SM (00:50:16): How about Dr. Benjamin Spock. RC (00:50:19): He probably always [inaudible]. I guess his philosophy was let your kids do [inaudible]. A lot of [inaudible]. SM (00:50:30): Timothy Leary. RC (00:50:33): He is another crack pot. Oh, he was probably far more dangerous in that era. He would have [inaudible] I guess all types not just LSD, I think he was everything. [inaudible 00:50:47] take another drug [inaudible]. Some people would have followed that. Not specifically because he said it, but because there was this feeling of they were like yeah, it was not such a bad thing. [inaudible] not have the potential to really [inaudible] our society. SM (00:51:05): What about the black power advocates, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver that whole group, the black power movement and their impact on America? And your thoughts on it. RC (00:51:15): They had some legitimate gripes, there is no doubt about that. The blacks were oppressed to some extent by systems of government and the institution of government, the police and all that stuff. They still are [inaudible] Martin Luther King. But he changed the system, non-violent, said violence was not a very good thing. SM (00:51:41): That leads me right into Dr. King, your thoughts on Dr. King and Malcolm X. RC (00:51:48): [inaudible] I was there when [inaudible]. Everybody in the south canceled their subscriptions to Time when they [inaudible] I think his impact is going to be greater [inaudible] radical change in the south. And he did not even know it too and he did it within the system, he used civil protest. SM (00:52:19): Thoughts on Malcolm X. RC (00:52:22): I guess Malcolm was [inaudible] he got other people to be in tune [inaudible] he would be secretly [inaudible] and all that stuff [inaudible]. He was a really good leader, he was [inaudible]. He was even more strict than Baptist rules and Catholic rules. SM (00:52:47): Some of the political leaders of that time and we're going to go into the presidents here. Just a few comments on Lyndon Johnson. RC (00:52:54): He was actually the most impacted society [inaudible] president. [inaudible] was passed under him. All the civil rights laws were passed under him. Medicare and Medicaid, he created that. That is [inaudible]. The housing act, I think he did that. I think he passed six or seven major legislation. Impact on us is [inaudible]. SM (00:53:30): Then John Kennedy. RC (00:53:33): He did not do that much did he. There is a lot of myth about it was Lyndon Johnson that did the stuff. [inaudible]. So, the most of the things they say about him are not even his work. [inaudible]. SM (00:53:51): Richard Nixon. RC (00:53:53): He would [inaudible]. He was part of I guess the old two government [inaudible]. That government was the be all and the end all [inaudible]. But he did open [inaudible]. Any thoughts, I guess he helped to end the Vietnam war. It has always been a weird [inaudible]. SM (00:54:19): Your thoughts on that combination of Nixon and Kissinger because the fact that in 1968 when he came in and promised Vietnamization, that he was going to end the war but he would not say how he was going to end the war. We just went over the 30,000 point of deaths in Vietnam, which means when he became president over 28,000 more Americans died in Vietnam. It took him four to five years to pull out and your thoughts on, we know how many Vietnam veterans feel about McNamara, but how do you feel about Kissinger who succeeded him in the Nixon administration, and Nixon and how long it took them to get out. RC (00:55:04): I guess they were always of the mind to get out, but they wanted to get out with some kind of [inaudible]. Did not want to just pack up and pull out. There was nothing wrong with it, once you made a commitment you have allies working with you and there was a lot of people in Vietnam who work with us and if we just packed up and left they would be dead meat [inaudible]. But they stalled on that one too long. At least [inaudible] put Jim on the trail to [inaudible]. SM (00:55:44): Is there a bitterness toward Kissinger like there is towards, not in... Is there some bitterness toward Kissinger though? RC (00:56:00): [inaudible 00:55:53]. Yes Anne? Anne (00:56:00): [inaudible]. RC (00:56:03): Okay. [inaudible] that is too slow and knew what they were doing. [inaudible]. SM (00:56:04): How about Gerry Ford? RC (00:56:10): Gerry, [inaudible] Gerry. I know Gerry Ford. He was actually a good president. He surrounded himself with smart people. And I guess that idiot McNamara was [inaudible] SM (00:56:27): I do not think so. RC (00:56:27): [inaudible] SM (00:56:38): A couple more names and we will be done. Can you [inaudible] on this [inaudible]. Some of the other names, George Wallace. RC (00:56:46): George, I knew George personally. He sign my diploma from Auburn, I have spoken to him several times. He was Governor[inaudible]. I knew him personally [inaudible] segregationist. Going back to the south of the (19)30s and the (19)20s, deeper Alabama [inaudible]. SM (00:57:11): How about Hubert Humphrey? RC (00:57:18): [inaudible] I do not think he did much as far as I can tell. SM (00:57:18): Do you think we would have been out of the war sooner if he became present? RC (00:57:26): Maybe, but I do not think anybody who got in could get out that easily or quickly [inaudible] because there is some major problems in and of itself. [inaudible] give you the war [inaudible]. SM (00:57:41): How about Bobby Kennedy? RC (00:57:42): That idiot got us into it in the first place, [inaudible] over to Vietnam. They're just sending the [inaudible] advisors [inaudible]. SM (00:58:01): How about Eugene McCarthy? RC (00:58:03): Eugene was all right. I guess [inaudible]. Some of the things he says were true about Vietnam [inaudible]. Was it really worth the life of one American? The Vietnamese did not care. Most of the Vietnamese were locked in a time warp, they lived in the 16th century. They might have had a radio in the village hall. They were just agricultural people growing rice and selling it and carrying on the-the generation. And not much had changed since [inaudible] 1500s. You have electricity in most of the places [inaudible]. They're houses did not have floors, they were dirt floors [inaudible]. SM (00:58:47): George McGovern. RC (00:58:47): [inaudible] I guess he spoke out the most on [inaudible]. He was shown to be correct in some of the things he said. I remember Eugene McCarthy [inaudible]. SM (00:59:13): Yes. Governor in (19)72, the democratic nominee. RC (00:59:19): [inaudible]. Was McCarthy a third party? SM (00:59:21): No, he was a Democrat and [inaudible] Bobby, there is a bitterness between the two of them, because Bobby said he went [inaudible]. RC (00:59:30): Interesting. SM (00:59:33): (19)68 was quite a year. RC (00:59:38): [inaudible] was Humphrey [inaudible]. SM (00:59:38): Humphrey Muskie. RC (00:59:43): Is Muskie still alive? SM (00:59:43): He died. RC (00:59:43): Really? SM (00:59:45): Died a year ago. He had severe Parkinson's disease and he had a bad heart. RC (00:59:55): Now he was old enough to be in history books, during the (19)60s. SM (00:59:56): I will recommend a book for you to read, it just came out by Joles Woodcover, he is from the Baltimore sun. It is a call 1968 a year in memory. I am just finishing, it is 500 pages, you will not be able to put it down. It basically goes over that entire year. So, as you are reading it you reflect about where you were in (19)68. Spiro Agnew. RC (01:00:32): I guess he was kind of a nice family guy, a young local celeb [inaudible] have much impact on. SM (01:00:32): But he created a lot of the lack of civility and dialogue with his assignment to go out on college campuses and really blast people. If you read (19)68 the book by [inaudible] even Richard Nixon was a little concerned about how far to the extreme he went sometimes. And he did not put a lid on it, but he embarrassed the president many times. RC (01:00:55): I guess [inaudible] civil dialogue and name calling. Because that was his specialty was to look up in the dictionary [inaudible]. But that was one of his [inaudible]. SM (01:01:06): Neil [inaudible] wrote a speech for him. RC (01:01:13): That is another nut. SM (01:01:16): Phil [inaudible]. RC (01:01:16): Phil [inaudible] somethings of some [inaudible] except when he called somebody one time. SM (01:01:24): Barry Goldwater. RC (01:01:27): I always liked Barry Goldwater, he was [inaudible]. I think he introduced me [inaudible] to the extent that world war two [inaudible] combat [inaudible] until he defends civil liberty [inaudible]. That man was something else. He had good ideas. And he was sort of carrying on the old style [inaudible]. SM (01:01:55): There has been several books written on him in the last couple of years. They were waiting for his book. Everybody else was writing about him but when is his book coming out. Muhammad Ali. RC (01:02:09): He was another draft dodger. I remember him saying he is not going, I think his [inaudible] suspended him. SM (01:02:18): Yeah, four years at least. RC (01:02:18): [inaudible]. SM (01:02:18): I read his book and he was a [inaudible] objector and he was based on his faith. RC (01:02:23): [inaudible] Muslims to me [inaudible] peaceful. SM (01:02:28): I saw him speak at the Ohio theater after I got out of grad school, when he was suspended. And he took the $3,500 in cash that was given to them and he handed it back and said, use it for a children's center. He did not take any money. He did not need it. So, it was amazing when I saw that. RC (01:02:49): Historically speaking that religion was a pretty [inaudible] religion. SM (01:02:56): Thoughts on the women leaders of that time, Gloria Steinem Betty Friedan, Abella [inaudible] the first Congresswoman [inaudible 01:03:05] power. And then Shirley Chisholm came in that. some of the women political leaders who turned things around for the women's movement. RC (01:03:12): I thought they were all generally great. A lot of the things they did, 40 percent [inaudible 01:03:19] somewhere along the line it would have been 2 percent. [inaudible] a lot of legitimate things to say [inaudible]. SM (01:03:30): Some of the people from Watergate are John Dean and John Mitchell. Some of the people that were the operatives in the White House during that time, who were the staff of Richard Nixon, those people. RC (01:03:43): I guess John Mitchell was the old style, the president was always right [inaudible] whatever we do. John Dean was sort of like I guess he was [inaudible]. How old was he when he ratted out the president? SM (01:04:00): 33 I believe. That is very young. RC (01:04:01): [inaudible] SM (01:04:05): And I guess he [inaudible]. RC (01:04:08): At least [inaudible] Mr. President [inaudible]. SM (01:04:11): How about Daniel Ellsberg? RC (01:04:19): I never was quite sure what is that thing was all about. I know he had some papers [inaudible] showed that Vietnam was one of those [inaudible]. SM (01:04:26): [inaudible]. RC (01:04:30): Yeah, hopefully [inaudible]. SM (01:04:33): What about Ralph Nader who is still living with the activism of today in a different area. RC (01:04:39): He is okay. He is sometimes pushing the envelope. So, for somebody sticking up small causes, causes that that nobody else is sticking up for. SM (01:04:51): I want to say this, someone on authority told me this, that you cannot find anything negative against the guy because he lives in a small apartment in Washington. He washes his own clothes. Never got married. I do not think he even owns a car. It is amazing that you cannot get anything in the guy because I think several political leaders try to, including Richard Nixon. They could not find anything. There was nothing negative. He practiced what he preached. He makes good money, but he just lives a very simple life. His causes are his life. RC (01:05:21): Ever heard about [inaudible] he would not be as vehement if he worked in [inaudible]. SM (01:05:29): Oh no, common cause was John Gardner. He started that, [inaudible] out of state. I am pretty sure.... Dwight Eisenhower. RC (01:05:40): He was a good man. He was a war hero [inaudible] but I guess to some extent it is true. SM (01:05:48): And the music of the year, the music that symbolize the (19)60s, when you had Janice Chaplain, Jimmy Hendrix, The Doors, The Beatles, all that music. Because that played a very important part in the war protest. Just that whole era of the music of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, which are really [inaudible]. RC (01:06:08): I like the music of the (19)60s [inaudible]. SM (01:06:11): [inaudible] Jim Morrison. RC (01:06:14): That there was excess of those people. And they were part of it, pushing [inaudible] electronic. SM (01:06:36): Mayor Daley from Chicago. RC (01:06:39): He made that city work. He was the old guard [inaudible] Nixon. [inaudible] like his father. SM (01:06:59): And once now in the Clinton administration too. That ends the basic questions. My final question is, are there any thoughts that, passing words of wisdom you might say with respect to this business about the healing again? Because again, this project is geared toward each individual's own historical perspective and also the metaphor part of their life. If you were to put in a capsule what that era has meant to you, just your own personal feelings of your young years. What it was like to be a teenager in the (19)60s, to grow up in the (19)50s, in the (19)60s and then the (19)70s to serve your country and come back. If you were share some final thoughts on your growing up years. RC (01:07:47): I do not know, I guess I started off in the (19)50s when it was more laid back. In school it was high school. I was on the team. I was captain of the basketball team. [inaudible] cheerleader and all that stuff [inaudible] it is going to make me step up to the plate. And things never changed, [inaudible] a career, whatever. What made me kind of step up to the plate [inaudible] things were changing. I was probably a little radicalized [inaudible] in the (19)60s. [inaudible] free speech. The importance of having students on the prestige of the university. [inaudible] I was considered a radical. SM (01:08:42): Were you a Democrat then? RC (01:08:44): Probably republican at that time. Being with the military, I can tell you when I was in college I was supporting Johnson, [inaudible] Johnson. At that time [inaudible] If you were working for [inaudible] because with Johnson [inaudible]. SM (01:09:02): Think a lot of Vietnam veterans, because of that experience became Republicans as opposed to Democrats, because they looked at McNamara and Johnson. And of course, history will show Kennedy, you got to see him and realize he may have gotten this out but do you think a lot of veterans, did you experienced a lot of people that changed? RC (01:09:20): And they made them republicans and we did not call them that in the military service. [inaudible] from us all the military. SM (01:09:31): Final question is getting back to the wall in Washington. And then 1992, this is the 15th anniversary coming up. We are expecting a big turnout in Washington. It is amazing a time place. But again, your thoughts on the impact that the wall has had on America. RC (01:09:51): I think it is important [inaudible] see the names on it. It feels like having that statute they put up to [inaudible]. SM (01:09:59): [inaudible] RC (01:09:59): [inaudible] SM (01:10:02): Over there. RC (01:10:06): Yeah, they [inaudible]. I think it is like they were in combat and they came in on the last patrol and they had 58,000 [inaudible]. Yeah, I think the wall is a [inaudible] of America. However, there was never a film of the war, you never see it. [inaudible]. I think it has made people appreciate the service individual. They [inaudible] anything else to do. But at least they see that those individuals are not [inaudible]. SM (01:10:46): Do you think that, follow up for that, this last question [inaudible] coming from me, that the greatest amount of healing from the Vietnam veteran, and because now we see the first ambassador back in Vietnam who was a former POW Mr. Peterson. And there seems to be a lot of forgiving between the people who fought the war. Almost a kind of respect because of a warrior, you had your duty and we had our duty. So, there is more healing between Vietnam veterans and Vietnam and America than there is between Vietnam veterans and those who protested against the war, some divisions here. Do you think that is a good analogy and can we ever, as Jan has been trying to do with the wall, bring people together to have the ultimate healing, which is finally saying, I am sorry, I was young then, I want to be able to be a friend of a Vietnam veteran. I want you to understand where I was coming from, because I think there is a lot of guilt amongst many people when they go to that wall, where boomers who take their kids, and I did not serve. That even though they may not have tried to get out of the war, there is got to be... Everybody that I have ever talked to that goes to the wall, whether they served or did not serve, has this feeling. There's feelings, it touches people. It brings back the memories. I am just trying to find out about your thoughts on the final healing process. RC (01:12:06): Yeah, it is [inaudible] significantly. It was one of the major events that began the healing process. With other towns like us, we did five years after, we built our memorial, sort of right down to a local level. It was all started by that one unknown soldier leaving Vietnam and it sort of spread out [inaudible]. You see Vietnam mentioned all over the world. SM (01:12:34): Is Clinton's visit to the wall important for the healing? RC (01:12:36): [inaudible]. SM (01:12:40): Because President Bush did not even go to the wall, but at least Bill Clinton did. I do not think Ronald- RC (01:12:44): [inaudible] Bush [inaudible]. SM (01:12:45): He was asked, he just did not want to go. And I know that for a fact. He was asked, and he said no. RC (01:12:51): Similar to the [inaudible] too much. SM (01:12:52): Bill Clinton was asked and he was going to refuse but still went. So, I do not know if that was like the second visit to the wall, how important that was toward the healing and then the generation. RC (01:13:09): [inaudible] sort of hide what they did. Not hide it but [inaudible]. SM (01:13:14): Any final thoughts? RC (01:13:15): You have to live with your past [inaudible]. SM (01:13:18): Any final thoughts at all, anything you want to add? RC (01:13:21): No. I guess [inaudible]. SM (01:13:29): I hope that is not the case. Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ron Castille Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Castille, Ronald D. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Marines; Pennsylvania. Supreme Court; Judges; Castille, Ronald D.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Ronald D. Castille served on the US Supreme Court in Pennsylvania from 1994 to 2014 and was promoted to the Chief Justice in 2008, staying until 2014. Castille retired from office at the age of 70. He received his Bachelor of Science in Economics from Auburn University. He joined the U.S Marine Corps and received several awards along his journey. Castille received his J.D. from the University of Virginia School of Law after his medical retirement from the Marine Corps. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-07-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.37a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.37b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 73:36 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3e552a490b720ba705c15a53280b95a8.jpg 8c6abded810844a07a8626191148c1bf https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/af782958240fefecea9e978be9369600.mp3 4bfdc68517a109c5d509bc853a49dff0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1997-07-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed F. Forrester Church Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church IV (1948 - 2009) was a minister, theologian, and author. He eventually became a prominent advocate of Universalism. He wrote 25 books, most of which were about religion in his life. Church was a graduate of Stanford University and Harvard Divinity School. He earned a Ph.D. in Early Church History from Harvard University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13057,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;\&quot;Calibri\&quot;,sans-serif&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church IV (1948 - 2009) was a minister, theologian, and author. He eventually became a prominent advocate of Universalism. He wrote 25 books, most of which were about religion in his life. Church was a graduate of Stanford University and Harvard Divinity School. He earned a Ph.D. in Early Church History from Harvard University.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; Body politics; Music; Laissez Faire parenting; Voting; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Power Movement; Watergate; Activism; Elitist; Generation gap.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Baby boom generation; Body politics; Music; Laissez Faire parenting; Voting; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Power Movement; Watergate; Activism; Elitist; Generation gap.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 57:13 Subject LCSH Clergy; Theologians; Unitarian Universalists; Church, F. Forrester--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Frank Forrester Church Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 23 July 1997 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:11 SM: First question I would like to ask you, for churches. There has been a lot of criticism recently, even the last couple of years about the boomer generation, looking at the problems in America today, whether it be the breakup of the American family, the increase in drugs, the lack of trust in elected leaders, lack of respect for authority. Basically, zooming in on the boomer generation, that generation that grew up between (19)46 and (19)64. And that is the reason why we are having problems in America placing all blame back on that particular group. What are your thoughts on the criticism that oftentimes comes from the media, and even not political leaders placing blame on-on a generation that the (19)60s and early (19)70s in particular? 01:01 FC: Well by definition, because of its numbers, the boomer generation, as you call it, is a dominant or I imperialistic generation. I call this the python in the snake. Each decade as this disproportionate number of people go through life, they according to their age, and interests, disproportionately affect the lives of all the other Americans. So, in the 1950s, when the taking the snake was a child, everything was-was suburbs, churches and education, it was a passive time, the child was demanding an enormous amount of his parents’ attention. And this led to a sort of domestic period within our, within our history, in the 1960s, to pick as an adolescent. And as all adolescents do, it rebelled. And so, with a greatly disproportionate number of adolescents, at times of crisis, the crises were made more spectacular, whether it be the response to the Vietnam War, the civil rights movement. Again, the peak was right on schedule. Expressive, rebellious, and by virtue of its numbers, very effective in the (19)80s, and (19)90s, to take those to the snake further. And we have the me decade, the decade of the (19)20s when people are all of a sudden, looking to their own interests and needs and sort of dropping out from groups and finding their own way. And in the (19)80s, the greed decade, where the pig is now moving on, into its (19)30s. And through its (19)30s. And thinking of rather selfishly having an enormous impact, I think this enormous number of 30-year-olds who happen to be disproportionately in the marketplace out there wheeling and dealing and cutting, jabbing. There is no question that the bat process to a degree was driven by this unusual, predominant number of young, hungry, green and somewhat callow executives. In many cases, what you have now, in the (19)90s, which could not become a decade, it is hard to know, is that the pig has in many cases settled down has children of its own, there was almost a reprise to the (19)50s. But with the memory of the (19)60s intact, the (19)60s and tact, there is a return to religion, there is a return to family values as a stronger set of concern for community values, individual. expressiveness is less treasured than group togetherness. And so, every level and through every decade, there is no question, but this generation has had a remarkable impact, sometimes for good, sometimes pretty ill mostly for both. And I see this process continuing as the pig goes on to the end of the snake and becomes enormously imperialistically demanding of rights of support of benefits. And at that point, perhaps we More than any other in the course of this generation’s life, the body politic will be taxed by the hunger and demands of the boomer generation, we have at this point for a decade or so have the opportunity of seeing the mature take, perhaps at its best and doing for others more than doing for itself. And almost every other point, with the possible exception of the (19)60s, where others, at least idealistically with a goal to be served. The tape has been a narcissistic one, it seems for a time that we are going to have the benefit of this large generations. That time will again pass as the needs of the older boomers are, weigh in. And I use the term pig with-with amusement, but nonetheless, not without a certain amount of rhetorical or metaphorical effect. Because there is no question that this generation by virtue of its size, its appetites, and its power has been the major feeder at the American trough, from the very beginning. 06:28 SM: Excellent, I just want to double check me anyways. That is acceptable or has- 06:36 FC: To be spun, spun out. 6:38 SM: Okay, this leads right into the next question. And that is, it is just a very vague, vague, but also very general question, what has been the overall impact of the boomers on America through 1997? Knowing that boomers are just turning 50. Because the group that was born though, front of this generation is now turning 50. This year, they certainly got many more years ahead of them. But they are still in now in midlife. If you look at 197-1987, as we are heading into 1998, what has been the overall impact of boomers on America? 07:10 FC: Well, as I said, and each-each decade of our life, our impact has been due to the particular needs of our age. We today are concerned about health, longevity, fitness. And that movement is being tremendously driven by people who are getting old and refusing to accept the fact; there is an economic driver in every generation. And as- put another way, there is this economic driver that the boomer generation pushes through each decade. And there has been a disproportionate amount of power success. And influenced by this generation, to the extent that others, both previous and following have been and rightfully so, somewhat jealous of the impact that this remarkably large number of people has had. Let me give you an example. In the 1960s, when the boomers were adolescents, oldies in music, were from the 1950s. No one in my generation listened to anything of our parents’ music. We had no interest in our parents’ music, we have noticed movies in the (19)30s, the (19)40s, up to (19)55. (19)55 on those things were interesting because they were the precursors to the Rock and Roll, we were here in the 19(19)70s oldies became (19)50s and (19)60s, in the 1980s they became (19)50s (19)60s and (19)70s in the 1990s, there (19)50s (19)60s (19)70s (19)80s and early (19)90s. So, what you have here is a generation of people, which has imposed its own taste, its own memories, its own experience upon the entire country. There still are no oldies from the (19)40s or the (19)50s the (19)30s in the (19)40s. But so long as this generation is alive, the oldies will begin when they started to listen to music. Now that is a fascinating cultural example of the imperialistic overweening power of my particular age group. We have determined not so much the tastes of everyone in the country. But we have imposed our tastes upon the country. 10:09 SM: What are your thoughts on the impact that boomers are having on their kids and getting it back that in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the boomers were involved with or course trying to end the draft, they were fighting to get the vote. The old slogan at that time was, you are old enough to send me to war that I should be old enough to vote. So, they got the right to vote, get the boomers really have not used. voting records among boomers has been very poor. And it is even poor amongst their children, which is today's current college generation, the generation I am dealing with, could you kind of reflect on the impact that boomers have had on their kids with respect to the aspect of activism, which so many took part in their youth. But we do not seem to be seeing that amongst today's youth. And we are seeing some of the characteristics that have been passed down from parent to child. 11:04 FC: Well, if one were to take the, the selfishness, low teeth, and play it out, I would say and this is far too general to be applicable to an entire generation, because you have so many different people here to try to make generalizations. It is great mistake, that I would say that having blamed all of their own problems on their parents, and therefore becoming so aware of how vulnerable parents are to the criticism of their children. Our generation decided to liberate its children, and excuse itself from responsibility. So that we have not both ways, we blamed our parents, but we will not accept blame for our own children's lives choices in future. So, you have, in some ways, a more passive group of parents who have been to a degree and again, one has to be very careful with generalizations to a degree exculpated themselves from responsibility by providing the freedom that they felt that they were not given as children, and then washing their hands of the consequences of that kind of laissez faire parents. 12:42 SM: Going back to a mindset as a boomer, what, and looking at the generation, then and now, you changed your opinions of boomers over the years. You were a boomer; I think you are in your late (19)40s. And what have been your you have been pretty consistent on your thoughts about boomers from over the last 30 years or- 13:13 FC: When you are, when you are part of a phenomenon, you very rarely examine it objectively or critically, you take it for granted. I have never thought of myself as a boomer. I occasionally recognize the advantages that have come with being a part of the pig to the snake. But I have I do not I do not think of myself in those terms. 13:32 SM: Using some adjectives, what are the qualities, the positive qualities that you see? And some of the negative qualities you- 13:38 FC: See, most of them are the same qualities that exist in all people at all times. I do not think that the group is any different than any other group. Quality is different qualitatively, which means, again, that the impact that has at any given age in any given decade is going to be to a large degree determined by the interests, passions, concerns of 10-year-olds, 18-year-olds, 28-year-olds, 38-year-olds, 50-year-olds. So, we are not talking about a group different in kind, only different in size. So, one might more correctly ask, what would any group of 18-year-olds tend to have in common with one another? And if you have an awful lot of them around, how is that going to change society? That is certainly what happened in the- 14:48 SM: Statistics differently different size. I have read that there were 65 million boomers and then another book that I have read material say that we are (19)10s [inaudible]. That is a big gap there but- 14:59 FC: It is still in the taking this thing, there is no question about that. It has been a larger generation than its parents and a larger generation than, than the ones have following it by-by a considerable amount. 15:15 SM: Two of the major issues facing boomers’ life in fact, I read a book recently defining the difference between the activism of today and the activism of say 30 years ago. And the activism of 30 years ago really concentrated in two major areas, and that was fighting this war in Vietnam and civil rights movement. And then many of the other-other women's movement, the environmental movement, were offshoots of learning from the Civil Rights Movement. Could you comment on? How important the students were in ending the war in Vietnam? Your thoughts on why the war ended, the major reason for the war ending? And how important are the young people that are worried anymore? 15:58 FC: Well, I think, I think the war ended primarily because of the unrest in the streets. I think that my father Frank Church, held the same view, I felt that until there was the ongoing threat of societal chaos. The American people were not concerned about a little war, halfway across the globe. Indeed, its casualties began to bounce. More and more families were intimately involved. But had it not been for the student protest movement, the war would have continued, my guess is much longer than did certainly Lyndon Johnson would not have been replaced as president in 1968. 16:53 SM: Smith, from ABC News, I interviewed him last summer. And I was there for five hours getting a one hour one hour interview. Yeah, I will be back. But it was good interview, and it gave me the time. I really appreciate it. But you are caught on to the reason why the war ended. Because middle America saw body bangs. And that is politicians realize what middle America was against the war in the war had to stop your thoughts on that. 17:24 FC: I am sure that the body bags as they began to pile had an effect and impact is no question about that. But I also think that the ripping of the societal fabric was tremendously destabilizing for the leadership of this country. And let them find it to recognize that so long as they were to continue sponsoring this war, they were going to be sponsoring chaos. 17:53 SM: Back to your commentary, when what your father said about the unrest in the streets, from growing up with the distinguished senator, and hearing the talk, probably coming he was coming home and sharing it with the family some of the discussions in congress and the feeling that he had. How close were we? You know, some people will say, well, you can never compare the (19)60s, early (19)70s to the Civil War. Nations coming apart, but some will say leader this close to come into power. How close were you? 18:27 FC: I do not think we were nearly as close as the students. I believe we were I mean, I and my friends all thought there was about to be a revolution. We were a bunch of idealistic pipe dreamers in part, I suppose, because we were a bunch of hedonistic pipe smokers, but there is no comparison between the 1860s and the 1960s. On the other hand, because of the disproportionate number of adolescents acting out appropriately and age appropriately, there was heightened sense of drama, urgency and crisis that helped us finally move along the civil rights movement and extricate ourselves- 19:17 SM: From the threat in the civil rights. And again, I have interviewed quite a few people so far, and some of us have different opinions. How important are boomers in the Civil Rights Movement, knowing that Freedom Summer really took place in (19)64? And that was that (19)64 was and-and I think boomers were 18 years old, the oldest group was 18. So, a lot of things like civil rights that already happened. So, some people try to downplay boomers’ impact. 19:44 FC: I think they had next to no impact in the early years of that movement, but there certainly was a strong contribution of Black Power adolescents in the mid to late (19)60s and early (19)70s. In helping to define and continue to define the Civil Rights Movement in a sharper and more confrontive manner that has been defined under the leadership of Martin Luther King Jr. 20:16 SM: What are your thoughts on Dr. King respect to the fact that he was one of the few people that saw the linkages between the war in Vietnam and civil rights and how we treat people at home and how we treat people abroad and of course, the division of the Black Power Movement and many people that were posted after King really criticized him for making those statements I believe in 1967. 20:34 FC: Dr. Martin Luther King was a large roundabout soul he was not in any way parochial. He was one of the few prophets we have known throughout the past 50 years. 20:48 SM: A lot of things that are regarding looking back, it is this issue of trust. Trust is an issue that seems to be a problem in America today, for obvious reasons, but historians and analysts will say it goes directly back to that era of the (19)60s when Lyndon Johnson and McNamara were in charge of the war in Vietnam and for the line the American public and actually seeing the news media. For the first time were critically critical of the government. Of course, Watergate is very obvious. So elected officials being dishonest. How, what are your thoughts on this issue in America today? The issue of trust and the lack of it, and how can we really be as successful nation around this? 21:43 FC: [audio cuts] The lapse of trust has directly to do with my opinion, not just Vietnam, but Watergate, and the empowerment of the investigative press. There had always been an old boy compact between the politicians and the press, which protected the politicians and to a degree protected the innocence of the American people. We lose something when we when we become so avidly interested in the peccadilloes of our leaders that we lose sight of their potential greatness. Here is, here is an interesting progression for you. In in the 1900s of this country, this century President Wilson was so completely incapacitated, that his wife was president, in effect for months at the end of his term, and no one knew. In the 1940s and (19)30s. When President Roosevelt was president, he was physically incapacitated, but no one knew because no one pointed out and no one known that he was physically incapacitated, he may never have been elected president [inaudible] was elected three times. In the 1960s. John Kennedy, a great national hero and-and in many ways, fine president was morally incapacitated by a strong sex drive and pension for womanizing, which was never shared with the people of the United States. Today, the smallest thing that anyone does and many things that a person does not do are fodder for gossip columns, the subject of commentaries, it is no wonder that a relatively ordinary man, although enormously talented, such as Bill Clinton, is the constant subject of innuendo, of character assassination. This would never have happened before. So, we have moved from a situation which was in many ways much more dangerous to the republic, actually having a president who could not think with no one knowing or having a president who could not move carefully without anyone knowing was the president who was acting wantonly without anybody knowing. And now, everything sucks. There is no question but that has an impact upon our trust level. It is not just because rumored quote unquote generation has so many people who were turned off by government in the 1960s that we are all a bunch of untrusting people. As a matter of fact, this iteration has as predictable moved from being radical to being conservative as it is become more money. So, you do not have a group of people who are, by definition permanently radical out there changing the trust quotient. You have a changing, set not of mores, but standards, which may in fact become impossibly hard. And if we are going to go back to a time when we took pleasure in and respected our leaders, we may have to be a little bit less prudish and a little bit more forgiving the human foibles that every human being including our greatest leaders that we manifest. 25:48 SM: This it gets right into the whole issue of cynicism. Now, I again, I read quite a few people so far. And one, when that question was asked, if you were to define one of the major weaknesses of the boomer generation, again, relating back to history is that that is the most cynical group I have ever seen in my life. Cynicism has is, of course was linked to trust. You know, I do not know how you feel about that. But well- 26:14 FC: I do not I do not sense that my generation is any more cynical than the one that was followed, or the one that was following that. I think cynicism is growing pace. I call this cynical chic. And it is combined with something I call sophisticated resignation. And he knows so much about the problems that face us, that we resign ourselves to the fact we cannot do anything about if anything, my own generation is more willing to attempt solutions and change. Because we were raised at a time when our impact was so great, that we have not forgotten that. So, I would say, yes, there is to be a label placed upon this generation. While cynicism is growing across the board in this country, I would not call this the cynical generation. I would, I would call it the imperialistic or confident generation. And therefore, when we have opportunities to work together and do something, we tend to rally and do that. 27:26 SM: You were to look at you made some commentary about the size; we know this is the biggest generation American history. And the fact is that a lot of the books that I have read sociology, books, history books will say that when you look at this generation, they will use this term 15 percent are really involved in any kind of activism. And the rest of them decide what their daily lives wherever. And so, and thus, what they are trying to say. And these are some of the critics of the generation again, we will come back and say the problems. It was really just a bunch of elitist snobs and elitist schools that are involved in this many have gone on to politics or whatever. And they credit downgrade anything that was positive about that period. 28:03 FC: 85 percent of any generation is self-absorbed and unconnected and not involved. However, 15 percent of a very large generation is going to make a disproportionate impact over 50 percent. However, 15 percent of a smaller generation. That is, it. This is why I mean generalities. Of course, 85 percent were involved, or interest never, never will be; that does not change that much from one generation to the next. If you have a lot more people though that 15 percent ways given with a much larger and more powerful voice. 28:43 SM: Do you feel that many people within the boomer generation and then this gets directly back to our conversation from the interview started with Senator Muskie that a great portion of this generation are have a problem with healing from the visions when they were young. I am specifically gearing toward the Vietnam War. Those were for the war those were against the wall. 29:06 FC: I think they will be served. The people who have had the hardest time with healing or those were the soldiers the Vietnam veterans. I do not sense that being a problem outside of that group, in any kind of- 29:27 SM: I have been to the wall several times in the last couple of years Vietnam memorial and tried to get an ambience and a feel for what they really truly are healing which was the goal of the wall in Washington still sent just from overhearing conversations and talking with veterans that they come on with-with this going along. Because there is- 29:46 FC: We will never be completely healed, and there is so much scar tissue there. Among the victims of the Vietnam War, perhaps the-the-the most neglected and therefore damaged group, at least among American citizens, with the veterans themselves. 30:17 SM: Again, I am just trying to get a feel for the people under so those who were against the war, I had a chance to interview Senator Gaylord Nelson, last summer and he said that I do not see anybody any boomers walking around with, I have not healed on their sleeve. But he said there was no question the body politic has never been the same thing. It was dramatically changed, right? 30:40 FC: It was dramatically changed. But I do not think those people who protested the war came away feeling at least most of them anything other than to a certain degree, morally superior and idealistically smart. With age and [audio cuts]. With age and the tempering of experience, we have mellowed in our pretensions, and attained, I should hope, greater humility. Again, I am speaking here of the 15 percent of people who were active, and I must, my friends were among one. And I have I have certainly noticed a mellowing that I take simply as a growing cynicism, I see it as a sign of maturation. 31:51 SM: Thoughts, and I want to emphasize this point, because a lot of what I am trying to do here is to interview people to metaphors, their feelings, so we better understand the times better and respect different points of view. Do you think there should be efforts made to bring together again, either through university symposium or through the media, better understanding of the divisions of those times, so that we can share why we felt that way? Because those were intense times with intense feelings, and is one Vietnam veteran said to me, I do not know, I am not upset with a protester if there was a sincerity in the protest, of sincerity. And that just running off to Canada, and I am just saying that I have talked to people with the wall and there was many guilty people because they did not serve and they have not gotten older and they brought their kids to the wall. There is that feeling, oh, my God, they did not have any of the young, but they have not now, maybe I could have served should there be efforts made to bring those who served those who did not serve together try to understand education wise. So, feelings of right time so that so that will not only help history but will also be an educational tool for future generation for future generations. 33:15 FC: For people who desire this and to take part of that I think that is that can only be for the good, I would put it low on my own set of priorities for tackling the present and future problems. I-I, however, was not traumatized. As many people were people who have been traumatized need to get together with other people to go work on their, on their problems, so that they can become more functional and happier and more fulfilled and less embittered humans. 33:56 SM: Define the generation gap as designed back in the (19)60s, and the generation gap of the (19)90s. 34:07 FC: I think that because of the size of the adolescent generation in the (19)60s, there was a greater sense of solidarity and power, which made it easier in a corporate manner to reject the preceding generation. Today, I see it more individualistic and idiosyncratic. Remember that the parents, today's children, are also continued to be the dominant group, even though they were the dominant group when they were the children of their own parents. That has to have an impact on the relative sense of empowerment and entitlement that the two generations feel Again, I speak of this as the imperialistic generation because it was, it was far more powerful as children than were its parents, at least in a, in a relative sense to other groups of children. It is now far more powerful as parents than its children in a relative sense. 35:23 SM: Can you feel that is a very important term, because in higher education terms, we are trying to work with students’ day in and day feeling self-esteem and empowerment. Now- 35:32 FC: That is why I call it the pig in the state, right? It is, it is a pig in more ways than what- 35:35 SM: I sense today's young people do not feel that many getting a scenario in 18 years of working with college students. And you probably see that I do not know, seeing this from the church. But the fact is that when young people today look at that period of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, to come away with two fields, either they come away with I am sick of hearing, you guys live in the psychology of right time, I am tired of it or I wish I could have lived in that time. Because I do not see the issues today like their work. 36:04 FC: The point to remember is that in either case, they are still defining their own experience, according to that of their parents. We in the (19)60s did not define our experience, according to that of our parents when they were young. We could not have been less interested in our parents when they were young. Our own children are fascinated by us when we were young. And that is because we continue to have the power. And the- we set the scene we set the stage, I could not have told you a single song that my violin parents had sung, I could not have identified it, I could not have cared less. While kids sing along with me as I am playing the Beatles on the radio. That is a huge difference. And it is not just a difference because of a change in communication styles and times and things. It is a difference because this big imperialistic generation, as has set the cultural political scene where the entire country by virtue of its disproportionate size. 37:14 SM: Let me just double check here. You referred earlier to the fact about size that we are, the boomer generation is their size, has tremendous impact on anything that needs to spread generation itself. When I was a young person on college campus, one of the terms kept coming up over and over again is and I do not know, the pace. on college campus, we are the most unique generation American history. In other words, there was, he might say almost an arrogance that it really did not have anything to do with size. It was just it was a feeling within it was within the mind that we were going to change the world for the better. 37:49 FC: I see. Again, I will disagree, I think it has enormously to do with size. There is, there is a disproportionate demographic, cultural power that comes with numbers. Take a look today at the focus of the major magazines, they have to do with health, and people in their (19)40s (19)50s and (19)60s, being young when you are 50. But we were in our 30s people in their 50s did not exist in the cultural media. Everybody was in their 20s and 30s. I think that this sense of entitlement has predominantly to do with the size of the generation. Also, the fact that the generation was pampered in the 1950s. It was pampered in part because of its size again. The- this my generation helped to shape the character of the (19)50s as much as it did in the (19)60s. And the character of the (19)50s was a very child friendly environment. Relatively speaking, where this generation by virtue, its number and its demands, was treated. Specially that to a degree has something to do with the sense of entitlement that followed in the (19)60s. But the generation was not just blown from the Prowler Zeus is some kind of special group of people who arrived at a critical point in history and made a difference by virtue of being different from everyone else. It has to do with size. 39:49 SM: If you to pick the one event in your life when you were young that had the greatest impact on you. When you were either in your teens or early during college. What was that incident what event the greatest impact on your life? 40:04 FC: Probably the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. 40:14 SM: Where were you at that time? 40:15 FC: I was at Stanford. 40:18 SM: I asked this because people that you described where they were, how did you find out about where were you at the moment? 40:30 FC: In both cases I was in my dorm room or house room and was called by in one case friends and in another no and in the Robert Kennedy case I campaigned for Kennedy for the Democratic primary, and I was actually watching the returns and the other in the other case, I was called the telephone for the television by friends. 41:04 SM: Did this event have any impact in terms of the direction you want your life saving here as a minister? 41:10 FC: Because I already I mean, it confirmed me in my own path, which was not that kind of vocational path. It was, it was a path to make the world a better place, less violent place. A more companionable and neighborly place. This sharpened my passion and-and confirmed my commitment, rather than doing the opposite, which would be to lead to despair or citizens. 41:57 SM: Which on, again, have an impact on society, do you feel that you personally have had an impact on society? What is the greatest impact? 42:05 FC: I have had a small impact on society, but I believe you save the world, one neighbor at a time. And the institutions are far more powerful than individuals in making a difference in society. To what extent I have had any impact it has been through the-the collective work of this 1500-member congregation. Which is far greater than anything I could possibly do on my own. 42:36 SM: Some names of individuals from (19)60s and early (19)70s and just your thoughts on that. 30 of them okay, go ahead. How many minutes we got here? 42:48 FC: I have got a I have got to be. I have got about a half an hour. 42:52 SM: Okay. Okay, you are okay, because I have another interview for clients. The other side of town. Great, good. Good. Just your thoughts on these individuals Jane Fonda. 43:05 FC: Frivolous. 43:06 SM: Tom Hayden. 43:19 FC: He was, um earnest. 43:24 SM: Eddie Hopper and Jerry Rubin. 43:27 FC: Lightful and tragic. 43:30 SM: It is takeoff to Eddie Hoffman, he-he is outside of Philadelphia, and he let them know that no one is listening to me anymore. And [inaudible crosstalk]. When-when I read that, I was wondering how many boomers feel that way. Then they get abominations that no one's listened to them anymore. 43:57 FC: Very few. That, that is a function of celebrity and the and the withdrawal pains when one is no longer one of the 50 most talked about people that has nothing to do with the generation. That is true of any individual who has his 15 minutes in the sun. And then the sun is covered by clouds, and no one can see it feels as if he is invisible, whereas most people would never expect to be visible in the first place. 44:33 SM: The Black Power advocates, Eldridge Cleaver and Bobby Seal, Huey Newton, [inaudible] 44:39 FC: Strident and powerful. 44:43 SM: Political leaders and there were some really good probably political leaders at that time, but they have a lot of things wrong for them too. And that is I am going to start with John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson. 44:59 FC: Kennedy was charismatic and inspiring. Johnson was powerful and tragic. Richard Nixon talented and sinister. 45:30 SM: Gerald Ford. 45:31 FC: Kind and pathetic. 45:40 SM: George McGovern. 45:42 FC: Humbly moral and everlastingly decent. 45:44 SM: He was on our campuses this past- Yeah. Eugene McCarthy. 45:51 FC: Narcissistic and supercilious. 46:03 SM: Bobby Kennedy. 46:05 FC: Great and [inaudible] 46:14 SM: Jordan Wallace. 46:19 FC: A-a creature of his time. 46:32 SM: Luther King Jr. 46:34 FC: Inspirational and worldly brilliant in the highest sense of the term. 46:45 SM: Malcolm X. 46:51 FC: Dedicated and powerfully impressive. 47:02 SM: Hubert Humphrey. 47:05 FC: Joyous and irrepressible [inaudible]. 47:16 SM: Ralph Nader. 47:23 FC: Earnest and grim. 47:26 SM: [Inaudible] Larry. 47:28 FC: Irresponsible and delightful. 47:32 SM: Doctor Benjamin Spock. 47:40 FC: Complicated uneasy. I knew him pretty well too. 47:47 SM: Barry Goldwater. 47:51 FC: Solid and dual integrity. 48:01 SM: Gloria Steinem, Abigail Adams and Shirley Chisholm, people that were leaders of the women's movement. 48:11 FC: Gloria Steinem, basically indefatigable, courageous, idiosyncratic. 48:24 SM: Mohammad Ali. 48:25 FC: Endearing and amusing. 48:33 SM: Richard Daly. 48:38 FC: Born in the wrong century. 48:44 SM: Robert McNamara. 48:48 FC: Brilliant and heartless. 48:52 SM: Spiro Agnew. 48:55 FC: Second rate. 49:02 SM: Daniel Ellsberg. 49:07 FC: Accidentally important. 49:11 SM: Woodward and Bernstein. 49:16 FC: Dedicated and self-absorbed. 49:21 SM: Music of the (19)60s. 49:26 FC: Ruthlessly delightful. 49:29 SM: I know there is so many but if you were to pick your favorites, the musicians that you personally love and secondly, music that may have had the greatest impact on the generation and future generations. Who would those musicians be? 49:43 FC: Head and shoulders above all others I would say Bob Dylan both in terms of personal impact and impact upon generation. He is in a class of his own. culturally I would say that the Beatles the Rolling Stones were also in a class of their own, but if there is one if there is one thing here to stand out in the music, the (19)60s it is Bob Dylan. 50:12 SM: He was sick recently. He is okay-okay. Something, yeah. People around Richard Nixon, John Dean, John Michell [inaudible] 50:28 FC: Pure blind bureaucrats. 50:31 SM: Sam Ervin. 50:33 FC: I mean that is Dean Mitchell was just an egregious narcissist. 50:43 SM: Men and [inaudible] man in that [inaudible] 50:45 FC: Era in the, in the third line bureaucrat. 50:50 SM: Sam Ervin came in that [inaudible] 50:58 FC: Just a real country original. 51:05 SM: Senator Fulbright. 51:06 FC: Quite complicated and courageous. 51:14 SM: Senator Muskie. 51:17 FC: Steady as the day with law. 51:21 SM: Gaylord Nelson. 51:25 FC: A man who cares but also enjoys life. 51:36 SM: Dwight Eisenhower. 51:42 FC: A lot better than he seemed at his job. 51:49 SM: Senator Church. 51:54 FC: I would say [inaudible] patriotic, passionate, 52:17 SM: Most of the questions because we doubled over on one but I want to end by repeating myself. Please apologize for my doing so, but I am trying to get a grasp on the healing and regeneration as a minister, a person that worked with your parishioners you deal with this day in and day out as you started in the opening of your book lifelines, that letter that was left under the door about dealing with adversity. I want to, if you do not mind, I would like to read this. And-and again, I am repeating myself, but I must get clarity on this before some say that the Civil War generation went to their grave, still bitter toward the other side. And then again, it is going to should efforts be made to prevent this from happening again, because Senator Muskie really alleviated to this in our conversation. And he felt personally that this generation is even though it may not have been the same thing as a civil war, as you brought up. Still, it is his perception that many people in this generation are going to go to their graves, still bitter. And you know, as a minister, obviously, you know what bitterness can do to someone. And so, I am trying to do is try to understand this better. Because during my numerous trips to the wall, I have witnessed several ceremonies with veterans in the audience, some still openly hate the president. They hate Jane Fonda. They hate still the people that were protesting against the war. As the I interviewed a gentleman last night, who was the head of the Vietnam Veterans of Pennsylvania, and he says, I still I use the term hate, I will never forgive those who were against the war, who protested the war. I mean, they are a bunch of other words, they are just feeling guilt now because they did not serve. 54:04 FC: I know, I do not see how we can possibly legislate either forgiveness or reconciliation. Obviously, time will heal to a degree and people getting together as a positive thing. But if you were to talk about this generation as a whole, I would say that the-the healing between parents and child that is to save the child who that was to say adolescent in the (19)60s and now as a parent him or herself and his parents are getting older, or dying, is by far the more existentially pervasive gap because of the sense of entitlement of many people in this generation. And the obvious disappointments that have followed normal life development. The amount of blame afforded to parents given that there are so many children doing the blaming, I would see as the number one healing issue. Beneath that and well beneath it but-but-but probably more dramatic would be the healing that one might hope could commence or continue to commence between those who serve this country and Vietnam and those who oppose the war. I think the passion play is played out mostly in the minds hearts and souls of the Vietnam veterans, not in the minds hearts and souls of the war protesters. 55:52 SM: Again, when the best history books are written, and the best history books are always written 25 years after an event because the best World War two books are being written right now. Like Steven Ambrose’s D-Day. We were only 25 years removed 30 bucks. And then that 50-year period goes forth what will be the lasting legacy in the boomer generation, how will history treat this, how will historians when they sit down and write it the Doug Brinkley is of the world when he is writing. 56:24 FC: As creative, narcissistic, demanding and influential within every decade of their lifespan according to the needs and desires their age may not be clearly put you know what I am talking about having heard me for the rest of the year. 57:04 SM: Any final thoughts? Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 1 Microcassette Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Church, F. Forrester ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Clergy; Theologians; Unitarian Universalists; Church, F. Forrester--Interviews Description An account of the resource Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church IV (1948 - 2009) was a minister, theologian and author. He eventually ended up becoming a voice known to speak for Universalism. He wrote 25 books and most of them involved religion within his life. Church was a graduate of Stanford University and Harvard Divinity School. He earned a Ph.D. in early church history from Harvard University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-07-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.10 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 57:13