1
10
250
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1eaa32bcdd14b675956ae398d27b123e.jpg
6e47195e0ac930da300ea4543b25a81c
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e477e03be319d57a7cabc19c63c2ef16.mp3
48e4bf7ae48778b7ad6bdb6c712f092d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s and 2010s. The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan continues to interview legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from a metadata field.
Date of Interview
2019-06-04
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jacobs, Ron
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
02:08:11
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Digital file
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Rock and Roll, 60's music, Vietnam War, Anti-war protests, Germany, Freedom of Speech Movement, Political activism, Music influence on politics.
Subject LCSH
Vietnam War, 1961-1975;
Peace movements—United States--20th century;
Jacobs, Ron--Interviews
Biographical Text
Ron Jacobs is a writer and activist. He attended his first protest against the Vietnam war in 1969. Jacob is the author of The Way the Wind Blew: A History of the Weather Underground and a trilogy of novels called The Seventies Series. He has a Bachelor's degree from Evergreen State College. Jacob currently writes for Counterpunch magazine. He continues his activism against war, racism, and capitalism.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Ron Jacobs
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: 4 June 2019
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM: 00:00
Let us start, so are you ready?
RJ: 00:01
I am ready.
SM: 00:02
Okay. Very good. First off, thank you very much for doing this. When you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? You can use words or adjectives, and why do you pick these adjectives? So, what, when you think of those two periods, what do you think of?
RJ: 00:24
The first thing I think of is, is anti-war. And it is just because I was, that was pretty important in my life, being against the war and so on, and a lot of my friends was. And I think the other thing, I think, of is probably rock music, rock concerts just because they seem to me they kind of symbolize great, they symbolize like a certain kind of mentality where there is a lot of freedoms that did not exist before, and probably do not exist as much now, but still, you know, in the same manner.
SM:
01:04 You know, you make a good point here, because when you talk about the music of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, when you think of the (19)60s and (19)70s, you think of the background music, which is the music, but it was much more than background, it was actually at the forefront, because- could you talk about the music a little bit more detail like what your favorite groups were and why? And secondly, the messages that were often in the music is something that I do not see today, but there were very clear messages in a lot of that music.
RJ: 01:36
Yeah. My favorite bands were Bob Dylan, the Beatles, The Stones and the Grateful Dead and Creedence Clearwater. And I think I liked, I could not really tell you why I like the Beatles, mostly because they kind of reflected and led like the whole, to me anyhow, what it meant to be a hippie counterculture kind of person. You know, they gradually went into- they grad- they started off as just mop tops, and eventually started being spokespeople and reflections of the, of the greater counterculture movement [phone rings] that was going up around them among regular people [clatter]. The Rolling Stones, I think, mostly because what I think of is (19)68 Street Fighting Man and, and their songs about revolution. Because even if they were not revolutionaries, they did, their music riled up people and also going back to the message, the message was, you know, well, for example, say Street Fighting Man, you know, the message was that there was nothing else to do, the only way we were going to be able to move ahead is if we if we get out, is if we join a rock and roll band, but the rock and roll band in itself is a revolutionary statement. And Grateful Dead, I think the Grateful Dead to me just represented a place where if everything worked out okay, and the counterculture dreams, worked out, worked out the way they were supposed to everything, it was the world that we could be living in in another 10 years or something. I mean, obviously, it did work out. But that was kind of what in my teenage mind, that was kind of how I saw it and stuff. Bob Dylan, it is really hard to say, but because he was so much, I mean, it was when I first discovered him was probably in (19)68, when I was 13 and I heard Like a Rolling Stone. And, and then from there, I just got into his music because it was his voice was so unusual. And I liked the whole image that he presented on the wandering vagabond, the Woody Guthrie kind of guy, the, you know, I liked his cynicism. But at the same time, it was tinged with some kind of like hope. And then as he went on, I think what really sold me more than anything else was when he did the Rolling Thunder Revue in the mid (19)70s, which where he tried to revive, you know, the whole [inaudible] he did around Hurricane Carter, and his-his constant advocacy for African Americans and the working people and so on, even in his songs that were not overtly political, he was advocating for them. You know what he would do the biography songs. I will say, The Ballad of Hollis Brown, or William Zanzinger. And you know, some of the, and he did the song on George Jackson. And George Jackson was important to me, because I was a at the time I was hanging out with Black Panthers over in Germany. And so, you know, as a friend, and so they will you we read a lot about that. Creedence Clearwater as a [inaudible] since my father was in the military, that song Fortunate Son was really crucial to me where he attacks, "I am not no military son," and he was just attacking the whole war machine and the mentality of us making money off of war. And that kind of tied in with the country Joe song, "What are we fighting for, 1234, what are we fighting for?" Yeah.
SM: 03:30
Wow. When you talk about the music again of that era, you talk about sometimes the music even defines the year, let alone a specific event. And you were talking about (19)69, this is the 50th anniversary of Woodstock this year. And then of course, it was, I think it was (19)67 was the Summer of Love. And they are all defined by music. And even in the early (19)70s, when you think of the music change, George Harrison's music for Bangladesh, which is one of the first concerts to raise funds for a tragedy that was happening around the world, it was amazing how music brings people together for so many reasons. Just your thoughts on those three events.
RJ: 05:55
Yeah, the Summer of Love, I was just a kid, you know, I was like in junior high school. It fascinated me and the son- I think the song, the album that some of the albums that will always be identified for me are, is Sergeant Pepper's since that came out like that year at the beginning of June (19)67. (19)69, I mean, that was kind of the year when I really started getting into listening to a lot of albums and moving past the (19)45s, you know, into and when you think of a lot of the songs that came out, a lot of the albums that came out that year, it is kind of interesting. And then you toss in those two keynote events, at least according to the media, Woodstock and Altamont. You know, Woodstock still, it is, it is this, you know, it is this thing that everybody knows about. I can think of, I have nieces and nephews who are in their 20s now, but I am probably back in 19-, it must have been around (19)99 when they were like, you know, when they were babies, or three or four years old. And they had heard my older sister and I some of our friends and some of our siblings talk about Woodstock. They-they knew what it was, it was part of their consciousness in terms of like, oh, yeah, what I guess went on people got together, had a good time and loved each other and listened to music, you know. I mean, that is, that is the watered-down version. But that is what people think of when they think of Woodstock. And then Altamont is always, even if it was not the end of the counterculture which I do not think it was, it has this, it has all that darkness around it. You know, and you know, the concert for Bangladesh, I was living in Germany at the time, because my dad was in the military. And so I was, I think, a junior in high school, and when the movie hit over in Germany, and I had been reading about the concert, because on the military base where the high school that I went to was, there was a base library, and it got the Village Voice, and it got Rolling Stone magazine, and the GI who was the head librarian, him and I were friends so he would always make sure that I, he would set them aside for me so I could read them before he put them on the shelf. And I remember all the, reading all the articles in the wake of the Bangladesh concert. So, when the movie finally came out, I remember skipping school and I went to this movie theater downtown that showed movies in German and then sometimes they would have English subtitles. But it did not matter for that since that was a concert movie, it did not really matter. But I remember sitting there and watching it go through like three times just because I could not get enough of watching the music and just the combination of those musicians and kind of kind of trying to put myself there just which is what the Woodstock movie did really well, too. I mean, the Woodstock movie universalized the Woodstock experience, even if it was just a way for Warner Brothers to make money. It also kind of spread the whole Woodstock idea around the world.
SM: 07:33
Yes. Is there is there again, you have mentioned some events that really kind of impacted your early life. But is there one particular event and when you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, that stands out for you more than any other? And I say that, do you think that stands out for the generation that you are part of? And secondly, can you remember a personal event or experience where that really impacted you during that whole period?
RJ: 09:24
I do not know if I can remember just one. I think Woodstock is a key event. But I also think maybe more on the political side was either the moratorium in (19)69, or maybe even more so the Kent State, when Kent State happened.
SM: 09:45
Oh, yeah.
RJ: 09:46
And Kent State to me, I was in, I was a freshman in high school, and we walked out, you know, we walked out of classes and everything. This is over in Germany on a military base, but there were so many people, it just affected people in such a, in that kind of way. Personally, it would probably be Kent State, you know, and the aftermath of Kent State that that made the biggest impact on I think it really convinced me that no matter what I thought things were, there was, I could not trust the authorities.
SM: 10:24
Right. I think it is interesting, Ron, you mentioned that because that is the event that shaped my life in terms of when I was at the school Binghamton. I graduated, [crosstalk] I graduated in (19)70. And, and I went into higher education as a career because of what happened at Kent State. Because it was the epitome of what we saw for quite a while were students, and were not talking to faculty and students were, you know, some of the administration are in very bad relationships. And so I went into it to see if I can do it my small role in changing that. And, and so, you know, that is a very important event in my life. And that was when I was a senior in college.
RJ: 11:06
Interesting, yeah.
SM: 11:07
I wanted to ask you this question, too, and it gets real- what you hear today in the news many times is when we go back to the (19)60s, the culture wars that we are seeing today in our society, in (20)19, are definitely going back to that era, the (19)60s, they say. Do you still see divisions in the (19)60s in today's society? Some, some call it the ongoing culture wars. I would just like your thoughts on that.
RJ: 11:33
I do think there is divisions, but I do not think they are divided in the same- the divisions are not the same as they were before if you know what I-I mean, a lot of times back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, it was always presented as generational, you know, and, and now I am not so sure. Because there is people like us, who it is generational, but in a different way. I mean, I know people like in their 60s and older, tend to be more conservative, even now that I just think because back when we were younger, there were more conservative people, they just went about their business. But I think I think that the key division that still exists, is ones having to do with women and their rights. And I think we are seeing it down south and all the all the recent abortion law laws that are going back to almost as bad as it was before Roe vs. Wade, in terms of restricting women's right to choose, and so on. And I also see behind that I see a basically a misogyny, a system of systemic misogyny that it is certain that some people cannot let go. And of course, you know, given who we have in office right now, who is obviously president who is obviously a misogynist in his own foolish way. You know, there is people who are a lot meaner, a lot, a lot more sharper and meaner than he is, and more political than he is, who are taking us to the next level which are these laws and these attacks on women. I do not know; the other stuff is harder to tell. I do not know if the racial divide is as big as it was. I think it is still there. But I think that with the exception of a small number of racists, I think individual racism: has almost gone. I mean, it is, it is more overt now than it was, you know, say under Barack Obama, or even George Bush or Bill Clinton. But that is because of the nature of once again, who's in power.
SM: 13:37
Right.
RJ: 13:37
But I, in terms of a lot of the generational stuff. I do not know that it is that big a deal. I mean, I just got finished teaching at a, working at a college last year. And now I just semi-retired, and got a part time job down at the local public library. And I was working with a lot of college kid well, obviously, working, I worked at the library, so I interact with a lot of college students. And I would say the biggest thing now is with a lot of the college- and this was a liberal arts Catholic school, in general, small like about 2000 students- I would say, in general, the overall politics are liberal. And so, and this is in Vermont, so that might have something to do with it. Overall, the and the social, the cultural stuff is nothing, I mean if they do not if they do not smoke pot, they do not care that it is legal. You know, they are they do not care about the gender identity stuff. They do not care about trans. They do not care about gay, straight, any of that stuff. So, I think a lot of those things, at least maybe in the generation coming up now like say 35 and under. I do not think that stuff is there at all, hardly, you know. But I would say there is still some strong divisions and like I said, I think the biggest one is around the rights of women.
SM: 14:53
Right. Very good point. Could you discuss a little bit of your background where you grew up, your relationship with your parents, experiences that shaped you when you were very young politically or socially or, and-and the any school experiences that you might have had?
RJ: 15:12
Sure. Well, I grew up, I was born in (19)55. My father was in the military when I was born. He had graduated from college the year before, he had gotten into ROTC so he would not be drafted into the Korean War. And then they decided, he decided, him and my mother decided that he was going to make a career out of the military. He was an officer, he, he went into what they call security service, which is basically gathering intelligence. He worked with NSA. He was he was one of the original officers at the founding of the National Security Agency in the late (19)50s. And so, we traveled around the world we got, we ended up we were stationed, after a few years of going from Texas to Alaska, back to Texas and so on, we ended up in Maryland, outside of Washington, DC in (19)60- (19)59 or (19)60. And then we went to Pakistan, because the military had a spy base there with-with satellites. And this also they used the joint- they shared an airport with the Pakistani military and the-the Pak- and the Pakistani civilian people that they used to use to fly U2 planes over the Soviet Union. In fact, it was where it was the base, where the U2 plane that Gary Powers was flying that got shot down, it was where it was launched. But they-they were not doing U2 planes anymore, because then by then they had better radar-radar technology. And so, it was a small base, we were there for two years. While I was there, there was a war between India and Pakistan. And so, they evacuated all the women and children from the base. We went to Turkey and spent three months on an airbase there. And this was right around the same time as they were starting to move all the US dependents out of Vietnam, because Vietnam was starting to really heat up, (19)65, fall of, fall of (19)65. And then we went back to the States, and we lived in Maryland for, my father every time he was stationed in a state where I was living with him, it was always- after he moved to Maryland the first time- it was always back to Maryland, because that is where his work was. And then we went to, then he went to Vietnam in (19)68, when I was 13. And he came back when I was 14. And over that cour- I was starting, I was against the war before he left, like I was, I campaigned for [inaudible] Bobby Kennedy and Eugene McCarthy. I would just pass it out, you know, pass out literature and–
SM: 17:37
Right.
RJ: 17:38
-knock knocking on doors with the local Democratic precinct chair Catherine because she lived right up the street from us. And she was a family friend. My father was always a Republican, he always voted for Nixon, my mother was always a Democrat. We come from a big family, there is a total of 12 kids in our family.
SM: 17:57
Wow. [laughs]
RJ: 17:58
I am the second oldest, I have a sister who is a year older than me, and my sister and I shared a very similar trajectory in terms of our politics, our interests and stuff. I was probably a little more fringe than she was because it was easier for me to be being a white guy, and white male, I would could get away with more and so on, you know, especially back in the (19)60s, early (19)70s. And then when we-we got, my dad came back from Vietnam in (19)69. And I had been really following a lot, you know I would go to the antiwar protests in our hometown that were put on by some of the college students from University of Maryland, which was about eight miles from [inaudible]. And they were they were [inaudible] this is during the moratorium they were [inaudible] protests, we stood and we read out the names of the war dead and had peace signs and stuff you know, but you know, people drove by and threw stuff at us, you know, because it was a pretty redneck town, a pretty military town. And then we moved to- my dad got stationed to Frankfurt, Germany- and we moved there in March (19)70. And right when the Beatles Let it Be song was released, I remember listening to it in the, in the military airport before we took off to go to Germany. And so, I went to high school, I finished up my ninth grade and finished up high school out of milit- at a high school on a military base in Frankfort. It was a big high school, it is great high school, a lot of liberal teachers. And I think part of it was because a lot of the teachers wanted those jobs because then they could live in Europe and go skiing and visit you know all these different places. So, when I was over there, there was a bunch of rebels in the high school, and we worked together with them. Some anti-war GIS and stuff, we put out and we distribute an underground newspaper and I went to a lot of protests, and we worked with some Black Panthers and stuff. We help we help publicize when Angela Davis was arrested and in jail, her sister did a tour to raise funds to free Angela Davis. And they came to Frankfort and so we-we helped publicize that on base with some, you know, leaving leaflets and talking to different GIS and, and students and so on. And then when I came back to the, I graduated (19)73 came back to the States. And basically, I got involved. I went to Fordham University for a year and got involved there, just kind of there. First, I was just doing the impeachment stuff because that is when the impeaching Nixon thing was just getting warm. It was right, I was there the fall when the Saturday Night Massacre happened with when he fired all Archibald Cox and stuff.
SM: 20:42
Right.
RJ: 20:43
And then also, the coup against Chile happened. So, I was living in New York City so I was able to go to protests, it was kind of something that I wanted to do. Then I left there and went to University of Maryland for a while. And then I dropped out and just kind of worked and went to California. And was kind of worked when I felt like it living, hitchhiking around, living on the streets going to festivals. I was I was somewhat politically involved. You know and I sold pot, stuff like that, you know, just kind of living that kind of.
SM: 21:17
Did you ever live in a commune?
RJ: 21:20
Not really, I mostly just live with, like, most of the places I live in were kind of [inaudible] people I had good friends in the hog farm and I would crash at their house. But I never, I never wanted to join anything because I really did not want to usually because most of them you had to follow certain rules. And I did not want to commit myself to anything–
SM: 21:39
Right.
RJ: 21:39
-at the time. So, I was just kind of like an independent operator if you want to use a funny term or something, you know.
SM: 21:46
What is amazing about on the West Coast and then San, San Francisco area, the diggers are the big group out there. Yeah, and kind of [crosstalk] On the streets, and then they went, then when everything happened they all went off into the commune life.
RJ: 22:00
Yeah, and they, their-their, their reach is pretty far and wide. Down into Kizzy, the people that were connected to Kizzy with [inaudible] Kizzy and the Grateful Dead, because a lot of them ended up, you know, they ended up starting a hog farm, they ended up starting these other communes up north in Northern California. Peter Coyote was a digger. You know, he became a famous movie star and actor and stuff. And then there was some other guys who came back East. Some of them ended up joining up with the yippies, Abbie Hoffman, and those guys, even and you know, there was always kind of a running joke between the yippies and the diggers is that the diggers invented a lot of the stuff that the yippies made popular and sold to the world. And it is kind of true, the Free Store, and the free meals and all that kind of stuff, and how to, you know, drop the, you know, get free phone calls, all that kind of stuff. The diggers talked about it and did it but they did not write books about it. Whereas I would kind of argue that it was because the yippies were an East Coast phenomenon, you kind of did things differently on the East Coast because it was more populated, less, more impersonal as well.
SM: 23:13
Yeah, of course. The yippies had a pig for President. So [laughs]
RJ: 23:16
Right.
SM: 23:19
Pigasus. Pigasus the pig.
RJ: 23:21
Pigasus. Yeah-yeah.
SM: 23:22
When you think of the (19)60s- now, again, I am going to ask you, what do you think is the (19)60s. I have had many people say what they felt the (19)60s was, I have had people say, well, it was two parts. It was the part and the first three years when Ken- then Kennedy was assassinated, then you had the second part of the (19)60s which went through to the mid (19)70s. Then there is some that say the (19)60s should be (19)60 and (19)70, quit talking about all this (19)70s stuff. What-what, what defines the-the years for the (19)60s to you?
RJ: 23:58
I like to think of it in terms of the long (19)60s, when I think in France and in Germany, and a couple other European countries and basically what defines it is this: raised consciousness and spirit that was, that was infused with lot of hope that people could change the world and actually make it into a place where everybody had, truly had equal chances, because everybody had their basic things taken care of like food, education, health care, housing, that was all there. For, that was what everybody could afford that and then they could actually work on living, living out their dreams and, and, and kind of moving beyond the individualist, individualistic rat race that (19)50s kind of brought on you know, the-the prosperity. But at the same time, there was another part of it which was the forces of reaction, which basically took over in the late, well they Nixon, Nixon was the first one of those. But I honestly think that that really became popular under Ronald Reagan. And the forces of reaction, which kind of, it never wanted to see that hope that the (19)60s represented come to fruition, and are still trying to turn it back, which is, you know, even little symbols of it like Obama or something, how some people just still cannot even deal with that, you know, or women's right to choose who, who that what they are going to do and so on. But I think overall, that the (19)60s were, were a positive thing. And I think they moved the world, Western, I think the entire world but that definitely the United States and the rest of the Western world, I think, and probably the Soviet Union, too, but they move people forward in terms of learning that it was okay, that learning that you should not judge people, by the way they look, I think that was probably one of the key things, whether it was long hair, or whether were skin color, or whether it was like, you know, man, woman, age, whatever, fat, skinny, whatever, you know–
SM: 26:16
Would you say that, if you were to put a point where the (19)60s started, it is when the election of John Kennedy, because of the fact of his speech, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country?" And of course, we all know about the Peace Corps and VISTA. And you know, the people that did go into the service, you know, that whole feeling of giving back. And of course, then we lost him. And-and then, you know, some people are always saying, "When did the (19)60s end?" And some people say it has never ended, really, but-but some people think that the (19)60s ended when the helicopter went off the American Embassy in, in Saigon in on April 30, of (19)75. And that was really a very symbolic thing. And then others say that in the fall of (19)73, you saw a big difference on college campuses, because there were still protests through (19)72. And when streaking started on college campuses, if you remember that and fall of (19)73, streaking was [crosstalk]–
RJ: 27:24
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 27:24
-and no one was, activism seemed to die. It is like, it is the campus has totally changed. I just want your, what is your feelings are about, you know, Kennedy, streaking, the-the end of the Vietnam War, and we lost the war, your thoughts?
RJ: 27:41
I would say the Kennedy thing is probably sometime in the campaign is probably a good pinpoint. But also one could argue that the Montgomery Bus Boycott, which took place a couple years earlier was-
SM: 27:59
Ah, (19)57. Yep.
RJ: 27:59
-was the seed, that was the seeds of the (19)60s because it was the first time that there was that kind of mass organization to change an obviously very unjust law. And Kennedy, whether he was a great hero, or whether he was not a great hero, he represented a lot of hope to a lot of people across the board, and I would argue so that Bobby Kennedy. If I were to say sometime [inaudible] I guess (19)73 in the fall was the year that I started college, at Fordham. And there was still a fair amount of activism, but it certainly was not anything like it was two years previous. And there was a lot of streaking going on-on the campus that I was on. But I think a lot of the activism had moved out into the streets and off campus by then because a lot of the people who were the primary activists, had graduated or left after you know graduated like around your time, or the year after.
SM: 28:59
Yes.
RJ: 29:00
(19)70, (19)71.
SM: 29:01
Yep.
RJ: 29:02
And I also think Kent State scared a lot of people away.
SM: 29:05
Yep.
RJ: 29:06
Because they saw how serious the authorities would get if, if things got if things got more out of hand than they already were in their mind. It is I can see why people would say the April 30 (19)75 was the end because Vietnam was such a defining- I mean, it was the key reason for so much of the protests. And it was kind of like, what brought a lot of these different strains of protest together because it was the war that was causing the economic situation. It was the war, the structure of the draft was racist, that people who are dying at the highest rate were African American and Latino immigrants and so on, so I can see that it was also taking away a lot of young men.
SM: 29:51
Right.
RJ: 29:53
But then there is another possibility that it was Jimmy Carter's election because even though he was a big change from Nixon and Ford. It was a different kind of, he was trying to- remember what the he had the amnesty?
SM: 30:06
Oh, yes.
RJ: 30:07
For the draft resistors?
SM: 30:08
Oh, yes, yes.
RJ: 30:08
And I think he was trying to put that all to bed. And what he, what he brought in, a lot of people do not think, are just starting to talk about this in the last five or six years, is that he brought in the idea that the government that [inaudible], the idea that the government should provide medical care, the idea that the government should help people get on their feet with welfare and stuff like that. And he started saying that, and that he started the actual downsizing of the government and privatizing a bunch of the government that Reagan carried out to a great extent, and has continued ever since. So, so it is, but symbolically, I think it would be the end of the Vietnam War. You know, because that that was so crucial, and that just meant so many people felt relieved when they knew that that was finally over, you know.
SM: 31:02
Those are excellent observations. I appreciate what you just said. Very well thought out. What, we have, you already mentioned the whole issue of the spirit. I remember in some, many of the people that I have interviewed, one of them, in fact, was Richie Havens before he passed away. I did a phone interview, and I am trying to get his family to "okay" the interview, it is hard to get a hold of them. But there were several people that talked about this issue of spirit. Could you define the spirit of the 60s on and how would you define the spirit? What made it happen? And is it based on age and now I say age, because a lot of my interviews are on the boomer generation, those born between (19)46 and (19)64. But the front edge boomers are those born between (19)46 and say, (19)57. And they were involved in the activism and the protests because the others were kind of young-
RJ: 31:52
Right-right.
SM: 31:53
-during that. So oftentimes, we talk about this spirit in terms of age, but Richie corrected that with me. Richie said, I am a boomer and I was born in (19)41. And so, and it brought up a whole issue because most of the major activists were born in (19)39 to (19)45. [laughs]
RJ: 32:13
Yeah. Timothy Leary was born in the early (19)30s.
SM: 32:15
Yeah. So yeah-yeah, yeah. So- And Dave Dellinger was another one that was older.
RJ: 32:19
Right, oh yeah. He was a lot older.
SM: 32:21
Yeah.
RJ: 32:23
Yeah. And Bob Dylan was born in (19)41. You know, so yeah. So, I do not think age has, I think age had a lot to do with it in terms of who the bulk of the (19)60s spirit hit. But, but as always, it was a lot of the was our, you know, what they call it nowadays, they call them elders, who kind of showed the way. And some of them joined in 100 percent. And some of them just kind of apprec- say, someone like William Burroughs the Beat writer who never really had any use for hippies, you know that he appreciated the fact that his writings are so popular among them, and that he influenced so many people like. I mean, he influenced Bob Dylan, he influenced a lot of- Jim Morrison, he influenced Patti Smith. So, he influenced a lot of musicians and poets to in the way they express themselves. And the dark places or the light places that they went because he had gone there, he had kind of opened the door to those places. The spirit, I think, was mostly I still think it is hard to define, but I think it was basically one that was of a revolutionary hope. And I do not mean revolution, just in political terms. I mean, in like, in the fact that things were going to change 180 degrees, and they were going to be a lot better. And some people did it, some people just wanted to do it by changing their lifestyle like joining communes or hitchhiking around. Other people wanted to do it by become- you know, joining a new religion or finding themselves through yoga and the Maharishi or even Christianity, whatever. And then a lot of people wanted to do it, you know, and then as brought through political change and social change, other people did it. Like if you think about it in the early (19)70s, when, say, David Bowie, Lou Reed, and even Mick Jagger and stuff started doing some of the cross-gender stuff. And that, you know, that was a big following. I think it was bigger in Britain than it was in the States, given the differences in the cultures in relation to that kind of stuff back then. But I think that a lot of people were like, well we cannot, maybe we cannot change the world, but we can definitely change who we are. And that way maybe that will help make the world a better place, a more tolerant place or whatever, you know, and even if that is not an intentional thought, it is kind of like part of the zeitgeist of that whole desire to change and to express oneself in terms of-
SM: 32:26
Right. You are really you are, again, a tremendous analysis. As a personal person who was in that era, and I cannot even explain it, it was just a good feeling. I, you know, it is not an arrogance, it is not being arrogant. It is just a good feeling if I am riding on a bus, and I am a college student, or I am wearing my college sweatshirt, back in the (19)60s and (10)70s, wherever, when I went to undergrad and grad, it was just a feeling it was a different time I and there was a lot of trouble, you know, the protests that divisions in America, between Black and white and women and men, and in the gay movement, everything, there so many issues. However, there was a just a feeling that it was a good time to live in. And it was something to do with the spirit of the times that I never saw as a little boy in the (9)50s. And I have never seen since in my life. I do not know if you felt that way. Still there. Ron, still there?
RJ: 36:10
Yeah.
SM: 36:11
Oh, okay. You okay?
RJ: 36:13
Yeah, [inaudible] hear.
SM: 36:14
Okay. Any obser- anything to say on that?
RJ: 36:18
Yes. I agree with you that I have not seen it since. And I can say, as someone who is coming in you know, that many years younger than you like six or seven, I guess. That as a teenager, you had this feeling like you were going to go, you know, once you got into like high school, you were going to be part of this huge thing. And I mean, I honestly felt like I was part of this huge thing and that anything was possible. And some of that is just being young. But I also think part of it was just kind of the fact that maybe it was because there was such a critical mass of young people who are all and-and we all kind of we are think- our media was not so diverse, that we were all listening to a lot of the same records. And, you know, reading the same newspapers, and, you know, and then also there was really good communication through like the different underground newspapers, and at rock concerts and just going to places where young people went and stuff.
SM: 37:18
What do you think was the watershed event of the (19)60s? I think you have already said it, Vietnam?
RJ: 37:23
Yes. Yeah. I think Vietnam was, at least for, for most white people. Anyhow, I would be if I was African American, it might be something different. But I would say, but even though even though they were affected, like much more, you know, in terms of demographics and stuff, there might be something different for them. But I would say in terms of, of a white, in terms of white young people, Vietnam was the watershed event.
SM: 37:50
When you look at the whole era, the lessons of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what are the lessons, the lessons that we hopefully learn from, not only so we will not make the same mistakes again, or things that we are we wish we could continue to multiply. Just lessons from that era?
RJ: 38:15
One lesson would be that you cannot give up. Sometimes- this is in especially in the, I am speaking in the political arena. You cannot give up because you think you won because the people who are opposed to change the kind of change you want, are always ready to pounce back and remove the changes that you have. And I think we have seen that over the decades as stuff has slowly gone back like the- I mean, some things are moved forward, like marijuana is legal in so many states now. And it is not a big deal. Other things have moved backwards. And so, but I would, and then other things I think maybe is that sometimes it might be better to give your opponents a listen. And try to find points of commonality instead of only looking for the points where you disagree. Because if you only focus on the points you disagree, it is going to be really hard to ever come to any kind of any move forward that makes everybody a little bit happy at least. Other than that, I do not know. You know, I cannot, you know, in terms of things that I wish we could keep on doing, I wish there was just a way that we could just keep the feeling of that we are all in this together. But I do not think that exists anymore. I just think it is because that is how our economy goes. Our economy likes to atomize everything and people, there is so more people and some people and people's life- I do not think people have the same idea that they are all living this, in the same, same concept anymore. I think the divisions, I think in some ways that we are going back to the divisions. Some divisions are deeper, like, between, maybe between the very rich and everybody else. And there are different divisions, but I do, you know, and like between the people who think there is nothing wrong say with some of the stuff that, you know, politicians do and those of us who think that politicians are completely on the wrong track, you know, like, especially the right-wing politicians or whatever, you know, the Mitch McConnell and those-those folks. But it is hard to capsulize in just-just, just a couple of things.
SM: 40:51
Would you would you be able to, for example, when you look at this Boomer generation, I mean, this is a question on the generation because of the fact they are part, they are the (19)60s in respect. Just a couple adjectives, positive or negative against the generation?
RJ: 41:10
Self-centered, that is the negative one on one. Innovative. Potentially, I think they are more caring, I would say more caring is a big thing. You know, no matter how they express it, they express it by working with charity by whether they express it through if they go to church through their church, whether they express it politically, or just, you know, how they think, think about other people. I also think that, overall, this is not, is that they are materialistic. More than you know, even though we tried to get away from it. I think that ultimately, we are materialistic. And I think that is just such an overriding part of our culture, it is almost impossible to get away from it. Unless you do not have the ways to have any material things. And even then, you might be craving them I do not know, you know. I am trying to think of–
SM: 42:17
That is pretty good.
RJ: 42:22
I think also, and this is just due to what happened. And I do not think we were always that way, because I think we ended up, started off very hopeful. But I think a lot of us ended up quite cynical. So that was just something that happened over time. And maybe it is because we are we have romantic ideas. And then when those romantic ideas either failed, or were quashed-
SM: 42:47
Right.
RJ: 42:48
-a lot of times you just become a cynic. Because you are kind of like, well, what is the point? Nothing is going to change anyhow, so why should I bother?
SM: 42:54
You know, when we see the news for the last, whether it be from 9/11, around (20)00, or any of the bad things that happen on the Daily News in our for the last 18 years in this news century, and then you go back to the (19)90s and everything in the (19)60s was supposed to end all that. The goal of young people is not to have war, and peace and the whole things. And then you see all these terrible things happening, school children being killed, people go into schools and shooting on people, going into synagogues and killing people. The Muslims are an endangered species in many parts of the country, we, you know, have we gotten worse, or you know, and most and then several books have been written by two of the people that I have interviewed, that we have had more war since World War Two, than at any time in the history of the world. And you know, World War Two was supposedly, you know, going into the (19)50s. And the Cold War started. And it is just like, you wonder, wow, we had this great feeling of great spirit for that short period of time and for some reason, these, this youth, the 74 million that were in the boomer generation, what had they done to make any kind of a difference? And some people will say nothing.
RJ: 44:14
Yeah. Oh, yeah. There is a lot of people will say nothing, I mean, I hear- you see those things. I do not know, if you use Facebook or anything. You will see the memes on there, blaming everything on the boomer generation, you know, and, you know, there is a validity to that, because it is people our age, but part of that, I think, is because people thought you know, when people think what they think, everybody was the same and they do not understand that there was always at least two opposing viewpoints, even among our generation, you know. A lot of people took, picked and picked and chose what they wanted from each side, you know, and I think that was probably what most people did. Whereas there are some people like myself more and more definitely on the left, and others people who are always definitely on the right. And so, part of that I think is the it was it was the whole thing was with the [inaudible] constant war, I think it was just the way, it was something that happened when after World War Two, and they decided that they wanted to maintain this permanent war economy because that was the only way they could keep everybody employed. And they were not, they were not creative enough to come up with a different way. I mean, you look at someplace like Japan, where they were forbidden to make any weapons, or even have a standing army for decades. And they ended up becoming a very wealthy country too. But only recently have they even been allowed to have a standing army. And so consequently, they spent a lot of their energy developing other stuff, you know, that-that did not require them to constantly go out. And or, did not require them to think that they needed keep on going out [inaudible] war, to get rid of the inventory, or whatever the reason is.
SM: 44:20
Yeah, I do. Right.
RJ: 46:07
And I do not think any other countries have the idea that they can save the world. Maybe the only other one that might have in its time, in our time, is the Soviet Union. And that was because of, you know, they had an agenda, as well as the United States to both of us was to protect, I believe, was to defend, ultimately, their economic growth for either-either country.
SM: 46:29
So, the, a little anecdote, when I lived in San Francisco Bay area, from (19)76, to (19)83, there was this religious minister on the radio, he had his weekly show, I listened to what he, you know, he was good at times, but I will never forget him making a statement one night, on the radio, it was late at night. And he said, he blamed all the problems of the world-- now this is in the late (19)70s, and early (19)80s, all the problems on the world on the boomer generation, and he basically made a- and he is a minister. And he said, "The world will be a much better place when-when we know the last member of the boomer generation has died." And that was across the board statement, whether you are conservative liberal or anything in between, because he was condemning that entire generation, for a lot of the issues that were going on in the Bay Area and the world at that time. And I just that is always kind of stuck with me. I wanted to get back to one other question here. We were talking about that question, a question, learning lessons. Of course, the biggest lesson is whether we as a nation, the United States, learned anything from the Vietnam War. You know, because we have been involved in other wars. I know, when the Gulf War came up in (19)89, a lot of Vietnam veterans are saying, "Do not go to war." Because you know, we are, we should not be going there. And just your and then, of course, we have been in Iraq and Afghanistan, just your thoughts on did, talking about lessons learned or lessons lost, did the United States of America learn anything from the lessons of Vietnam?
RJ: 48:07
I think what they learned, I mean, and Colin Powell said it back when he was working for Reagan I think, and he said that you should not go into a country. I mean, these are bad things to learn, I think, but it is what they learned because their military minds. And that is that you do not go into and into a country unless, you know, you can overwhelm them with superior force. And that was kind of what they did when they did that first war in Iraq like (19)91, or whatever, under George Bush, the father. And I think the other thing they learned was to them, was to not let people know what was really going on in the battle zone. And just by controlling the media, even more than it was ever controlled in Vietnam. And I think the other thing they learned was to never have a draft. Because all of those, I mean, all these wars and the war, I mean, we were we have been at war now since well, since they attacked Afghanistan after 9/11. And we do not even really know you and I and most of Americans, most people in the world do not know what countries the US is even fighting in other than Afghanistan.
SM: 49:21
Right.
RJ: 49:21
And, you know, and that has nothing to do even with, and that does not even begin to mention the places where we supply most of the arms, like in Yemen or something like that. So, I think the-the military establishment and the war establishment, learn very, learned those lessons very well. Basically, if you are going to be a war, do not tell the truth, which is kind of like, you know, that is the standard thing, the first casualty of war is the truth. But this way, they have just learned to not even begin with it, you know, and, and, I mean, if you think of the way we got into the-the (20)03 invasion of Iraq, it was Colin Powell was up there telling outright lies to the Security Council, you know, and he even admitted, yeah, I lied. And then there is this guy, Colonel-Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson. He is a retired Air Force guy. And he just put out a- wrote an article that he put out talking about how he, how he lied for the, to get the US into Iraq. And he is saying do not, we cannot let them do it again to go into Iran. You know. So, as far as the rest of us, I think there was a decent antiwar movement against the first invasion of Iraq, the deserts, I think that was Desert Storm.
SM: 50:36
Yep.
RJ: 50:37
And then I think there was a really good antiwar movement against-against the second invasion of Iraq, but I think the leaders of the antiwar movement did not, they thought that they could, they decided to go along and go along with the Obama campaign and join the Democratic Party to try to stop the war. And they should have known better because the Vietnam War expanded under-under the Democrats, you know, under LBJ, Kennedy and LBJ.
SM: 51:08
Right.
RJ: 51:08
So, and that, I think, so I am not sure the leadership of the antiwar movement learned anything, because basically, they allowed the antiwar movement to be led into the, into the, into the Democratic Party. And while Obama did diminish the number of troops in Iraq, there is still, there has always been troops there, and then he just stepped up the aerial and the drone wars and so on.
SM: 51:32
Right, right.
RJ: 51:32
So, so I am not- it is it is kind of a mixed bag, you know, and I do not know, like, now I wonder if, say, say they decided to invade Venezuela or invade Iran in the next year or two, I wonder how, how and what the any antiwar movement would look like. I mean, I stay in touch with a lot of people who were involved in all the antiwar movements since Viet- since Vietnam, and, you know, and all- whether they started back then or whether they were younger and came-came around- but it is just kind of people who have been, have kind of committed their life [inaudible] anyhow, you know.
SM: 52:15
Right.
RJ: 52:17
So, I do not, I do not know how many people would come and join any groundswell. It is really difficult to tell, because we are so removed from so many people's lives now.
SM: 52:26
Right.
RJ: 52:26
Since there is. since there is no draft, that that changes everything I think.
SM: 52:32
When you look back, there has been- I do a lot of reading and books and the some of the recent books have said, they are talking about how effective really was the student- I mean, not the antiwar movement as a whole, but the student protest movement on college campuses on ending the war in Vietnam. I would like your thoughts on, did they play a major role in ending the war? The critics will say that, "Oh, no, no, no, that they did not have that much, they were troublemakers, basically." And what really ended, the, when people started going against the war is when their sons came start coming home from the war from people that live in the Midwest and their sons came home in coffins. That is what changed the war. And your thoughts on the student protest movement during the (19)60s and early (19)70s?
RJ: 53:23
I think it was very important. I think that it was the bulk of the antiwar movement. I think if that if the student antiwar movement had not existed, a lot of those people whose sons did come home in the coffins, and so on, would never have thought that it was okay for them to be against the war. And they would have just kind of said, well, you know, he died for his country, and they would have gone along with that. But I think the fact that the antiwar movement, which was basically mostly student based because they were the ones, it was people their age was going to be set over there. I think that the fact that they organized the movement, that they helped the movement expand and so on, and that they were not afraid to stand up and deal with whatever they had to deal with, that is, that is, that is what held [inaudible] for antiwar idea, consciousness in the American people. And then I think, you know, I think of my father, he was a military man. He was a career military man. He went to Vietnam, he told me is- this is an interesting irony. But on the, I was 13. On the day that, on the day that LBJ said that he was would not run nor would he accept the nomination for his party for presidency. That was like March 31 (19)68. He, that was the day my dad told me that he had given-given orders to go to Vietnam.
SM: 54:51
Oh, wow.
RJ: 54:52
And I was just, I was 13. I was starting to I was I was I was precocious in terms of my awareness of the news and everything and, you know, so and I had already started campaigning for Gene McCarthy and I was switching over to Bobby Kennedy once he joined after the, after the New Hampshire primary there, but. But um, and I just remembered that and then he went away, he started starting in July of that of that year (19)68, he went away, because he had to go to these special trainings before we went over to Vietnam. So he was basically gone for like 18 months. And when he came back, I was pretty much hardcore antiwar, and so on. And he never told me this until after my son was born when I was 29. So sometime like mid-mid (19)80s. He, he said, "You know, when I, by the time I was in Vietnam, I knew that it was the wrong war for us to be in." And he said, "But I had no choice." He said, "I had a family to support. I had," you know, and, and basically, you know, that, as you can probably guess, that was a major source of contention between me and my father, the whole time I was in high school, and we would have some pretty intense arguments about it and stuff, you know, and it kind of made me question. You know, ee was a very, he was raised Catholic, he is a very traditional Catholic. So always made me question the morality of somebody who could be involved in that at the same time, the, the this, “Thou shalt not kill and all that kind of stuff,” you know what I mean, so. So, I think and I think he was on the conservative edge of things. And I think he [inaudible] when he told me that he said, "yeah," he says, "If I had been a civilian," he said, "I would not have gone to a protest." But I would have signed every petition, and I would have talked to congress people. But [inaudible] Kennedy [inaudible].
SM: 56:57
One of the kind of semi controversies, it is happening today, and I have seen amongst Vietnam veterans now. I go to the Vietnam Memorial a lot, and I listen to all the state and I- it is a nonpolitical entity, they talk about it is in remembrance of those who served and died. And, and they are heroes. When the when the Vietnam, it is well known fact that when Vietnam vets came home, they were treated terribly by this country as a whole. And but the question I have always felt, in my experience with the antiwar movement, is I never felt that the anti the genuine antiwar activists were against the troops, they were against the leaders who sent the troops. And there is still this perception out there that when they came home from Vietnam, it was the antiwar movement that treated them poorly. I do not think so. But could you correct me or your feelings on this? I thought it was. I thought it was America as a whole. Because of this perception that Vietnam vets were baby killers, the My Lai massacre, post-traumatic stress disorder, they are all crazy, all these things. And so, I thought that was the reason why, but you know, your thoughts.
RJ: 58:14
I think that I agree with what you are saying essentially, in terms of that it was the, it was the government of the United States that failed the, failed the veterans. Failed the guys coming back. It is for me, having grown up growing up in the military, and when I was in high school, doing a lot of work and hanging out with a lot of GIS who are against the war a lot. Where I was in Germany, a lot of the GIS were finishing up their two years enlistment because they were just draftees. And so, they would, they would have gone to boot camp, and then gone to Vietnam for a year. And then they would spend like their last 10 months being a clerk typist somewhere, you know, and a lot of us ended up in Germany In Germany. And so, I knew them through like, you know, rock music and, you know, to smoking pot, and just like, working with some of them on-on new antiwar stuff, and so on. And, you know, they were a select group, they were not the majority of, you know, just like most people that most people are not politically involved, these guys were politically involved. And, you know, what I [inaudible] them, is they were very clear that it was, you know, the people they did not like, was the officers and the politicians. And it was the politicians who could have treated them one way or the other. And they basically stalled for so long to even get the PTSD considered a valid psychological disorder, you know, and the only reason that really happened was because of who [inaudible] the war constantly lobbying and so on to, to get recognized by the APA as, to go into the DSM, whatever you think of the DSM that is, you know, that is what the where they have the list of disorders. So, I think Americans in general just wanted to forget about it, kind of the way they, right now I work part time in a public library. And a lot of the people who come in every day are people who do not have a home. And a lot of them are vets from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
SM: 1:00:23
Wow.
RJ: 1:00:23
And I see the same thing, I see the same thing happening.
SM: 1:00:27
Wow, that is really sad.
RJ: 1:00:28
People do not care about them. And these men, I think, probably have, I do not know, because I was never in war, thank God. But some of these men come in, and they have some incredible mental health issues, not to go not to say about other issues that they are just finding out, you know, cancers or something that happened from being in a war zone and so on. And they self-medicate on very heavy levels, you know, like, kind of like some of, you probably had buddies who did the same thing, who came back from Vietnam. I know I did. I had like two or three of my friends who are dead by the end of this, who two of them enlisted. And one of them got drafted. And they went to Vietnam. They were a couple years older than me in high school. And they all, one of them overdosed on heroin, the other two committed suicide. So that so you know, how the high rate of suicide now-
SM: 1:01:17
Yes.
RJ: 1:01:19
-among Iraq vets and so on. And so I kind of it is kind of, you know, American politicians love to make Bernie Sanders and I am not politicking for him or anything, but he will say, if you do not want to make if you do not want to take care of your vets, do not make wars, you know, and because his point is that, you know, Americans like their wars, but they do not really care about the vets. And when I talk with my dad about it, who used to be when he first got out of the military in (19)79, he used to be kind of [inaudible] on Vietnam vets who are complaining, but then he starts doing his church, he started doing counseling for vets who are applying to get back into the workforce. And, and, you know, he wanted to do it, because he was a vet himself that he, you know, he understands that military code and all that. And that, even if they even if GIS did not like the military, they still respect a man who had a higher rate. So, there is that whole thing that happens within the military training and everything. And it really changed his mind about it. He realized, like, No, you know, we did him wrong. I think that is part of what happened in Vietnam. And I think it is what is, you know, it happened in previous wars. But I think what the difference between previous wars and Vietnam was that Vietnam became such an unpopular war. But also, at the same time, there was a lot. It was the first time that a war had taken place where people continued to chall- where the challenges to it got bigger as the war went on as opposed to other wars where they were like, say World War One, there was a lot of opposition to the US going in and just all around the world. But once the war started, most [inaudible] did their thing. Same with World War Two. Whereas Vietnam, nobody really even knew it was beginning but by the time it was [cuts off]
SM: 1:03:09
Still there?
RJ: 1:03:10
Yeah, I am just going in and out. Are you there?
SM: 1:03:14
Yeah, I am here. Got it okay?
RJ: 1:03:19
My phone is funny, sometimes. I am trying to stay in one place, but I am not sure what is going on.
SM: 1:03:24
I hear you now.
RJ: 1:03:26
Okay. So, I think that the vets bore the brunt of it. You know, and I but I do not think it was the antiwar movement, any more than it was any other part of the United States.
SM: 1:03:37
Have you changed your feeling about the boomer generation over the years, just changed from when you were younger that spirit and now today, have you just devolved differently when you think about that whole generation? [phone rings]
RJ: 1:03:53
Well, not really, I still think that it played as you know, as a generation. It-
SM: 1:04:00
That is a noise in the background, forget it.
RJ: 1:04:02
Okay. As a generation it did, it took advantage of the time it was in and it made things it changed the world for the better- in substantial ways, mostly for the better, I think. I think I do not know, climate change is a tough thing to get a handle on, you know, get your head around. But I think in a lot of terms of people being able to fulfill their lives and people granting more opportunity for more people at least in the United States [inaudible]
SM: 1:04:42
Is your phone breaking up?
RJ: 1:04:48
I think this is, I am not sure why. Yeah.
SM: 1:04:50
You got enough power in your phone?
RJ: 1:04:53
Yeah. I am plugged in. I am plugged in.
SM: 1:04:57
We are about a little, about halfway through that okay?
RJ: 1:05:01
Yeah, yep.
SM: 1:05:01
Yeah-yeah. And I am going to get to some questions about your two books in a couple more questions. But I got a few more here that. Let us see here. Could you describe, a lot of times the boomer generation and the student- young people in the (19)60s used to say they were the most unique generation in American history is because of the attitudes they had, that they were going to be the best change agents for good in our society, was that arrogance on the part of the boomer generation and the students of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, that they were going to be different than any other generation, before or after?
RJ: 1:05:09
Okay. The I think it was era, it is not necessarily a bad arrogance, I think they would have been told that growing up, that they were special. And I think the fact that so many of them took it to heart and tried to do the right thing with it, it is actually it is kind of like trying to make that arrogance air out you know. But yeah, I think it is a little bit arrogant. I- it is hard. I think it is too early to tell whether or not it was true, to be honest. But I also, you know, I have a son who is 35 have a daughter who is 25. And, you know, their mom and I, you know, even when we lived in different houses and stuff, we were always involved in, very involved in their parenting and so on. And she is a few years younger than me. So, she is a little bit different generation a little bit later in the boomer generation. So, but I think that their values are the same, but I do not see them as intense on trying to change anything, they are just trying to figure out how to pay their bills and stuff like that. And part of it is because of the way college is structured now, you have some people kids owe more than that, they owe more than I ever paid for a house, just to go through college. So, you know.
SM: 1:06:58
What did you know, and I will close on this, this particular area of questioning what made the generation different beyond their size, we all know, everybody talks about how big, you know, the boomer generation after World War Two, you know, babies are booming like crazy? And we all know about the size. And that is what they talked about for years, it was in the (19)50s, how big this generation is, what made them so different?
RJ: 1:07:21
I think part of it was the media. And the advent of television and the fact that by what, (19)68 pretty much, so many homes had TVs in them. And the television industry at that time was so centralized. So, we were all seeing a lot of the same stuff. And there was only two or three out, there were CBS, ABC and NBC and Metro media. So, there was not a lot of different interpretations of what was going on. And then I also think that the school systems in most neighborhoods, mostly white neighborhoods, once again, I think we are very well funded. And a lot of the teachers who were teaching were people with a breadth of experience, and they wanted, you know, there was a lot of innovative stuff there for them to use. So that kind of expanded the way we thought. And I also just think the access that we had, it is nothing compared to what kids have now. But we were the first generation to have access to, you know, expendable cash. Um, so there is a whole culture that grew up around us, which did not really happen before. And they always talk about, you know, Chuck Berry, Elvis and Bill Haley as like being the beginning of the youth culture. And by the time, by the time of the late (19)60s, it was like the counterculture. And then by the mid (19)70s, it started breaking up into smaller subcultures. But still, we were buying the bulk of the records, and we were, we were determining what wrote what route the record company and the movies, we are going to go. You know, I mean, if you think of so many movies that were geared towards the youth, you know, the young generation at that time, whether they were silly movies, or whether they were more serious movies like Joe or The Graduate or something, you know, or Easy Rider, they were still geared because that was a market. So, I think it was a combination, the size definitely made a difference, because that meant that people who wanted to make money knew that they had, they could make a lot of money and they sold the right thing. And so then that spread it even more, but it also they that means they had to figure out a way to package the ideas that we were representing or that we were expressing and then sell them back to us and by selling them back to us, they spread it like I was saying earlier with what by the fact that they took the Woodstock movie, made Woodstock [inaudible] all over the world [inaudible] Woodstock generation that [inaudible], you know.
SM: 1:09:53
It has often so often been quoted in a lot of the history books, particularly the ones written in the (19)90s on the (19)60s that the, the-the boomers or the actually the boomer generation were truly activists or involved in some sort of activity linked to the Vietnam War, Civil Rights, the women's movement, the Native American movement, Hispanic movement, environmental movement, and the gay and lesbian movement, were that they were linked to the issues of the day, the saying that they were, there were only 7 percent involved. And I thought, well, that is still a lot of people when you are talking 74 million. But is it true? Or is this another way that some writers whether they be to the right, or people who are critical of the left, is this another way of lessening the impact that this generation or that 7 percent have had on American scene since the (19)60s?
RJ: 1:10:49
I think it is a way of lesson I mean, who knows what the real numbers were and who knows how they arrived at those numbers. I mean, if you think about if you try to take add together, people who went to protests or people who said they went to protest, or people who joined SDS, or people who were involved in some civil rights organization, or an Earth Day or the, you know, the lesbian, gay movement or something, it is, it is really hard to say, because what do they mean by commitment? I mean, everybody, most people were affected by it on some level, and some people might have gone to one protest, but never gone to another one. And, you know, so that that is hard. I think it is a way to try to diminish it, because I think it kind of takes away the fact that most major moments of social upheaval, are usually only involving a few people. Like the American Revolution did not involve most of the most of the colonists, the French Revolution and Russia revolution did not either. So, it is hard to, it is hard to say, but I, when I read those books, when I read those numbers and stuff, my first reaction is like, I do not believe it. And then my second reaction is, well, how did you come up with these, with that number, you know.
SM: 1:12:05
Very good, good, another good analysis there. I, this is a question that is one, been one of the most important one I have asked, during this whole process of interviewing people over all the years, I have been one that is always wondered about the healing process. Do you feel that the generation of boomers the, or the young people of that era and even America, and certainly Vietnam veterans, do you feel that this generation and the group, that healing as it relates to the war and other divisions of the time, that we have not gotten over it even today, and, and I asked this in terms of the Vietnam memorial was built to heal the nation. Remember, Jan Scruggs wrote the book, "To Heal a Nation."
RJ: 1:12:52
Right.
SM: 1:12:53
He is what he tried to do it to heal the Vietnam veterans who served in that war, their families, and the loved ones of those who died. And, and I think he is pretty comfortable that that wall has done a lot with respect to healing within that group. However, do you feel that we as a nation, and I know we are talking years, Vietnam now ended in (19)75. So, we are talking a long time ago. But do you think we are still having problems with healing? Or do you think a lot of the people still have not healed from that war and are going to go with to the grave with the animosity and dislike toward the people who disagreed with them over that their involvement in the war and the, you know, protests against the war? It is the whole healing process as a nation. You think, is it important, or is it, it is not an issue anymore?
RJ: 1:13:50
I think it is still going on. And I think every once in a while, a politician comes along, who breaks open the wound, and kind of pokes itself [inaudible] or whatever, and riles up people who, who they will never forgive on both sides. And then it starts all over and then we have this other moment of soul searching. But then the way I kind of look at it, too, is healing from a trauma like that is never going to be easy. And it is a long-time process. I think some of the people who poke the wound are people who were, who were not even alive at the time, but they have this idea, this ideological idea, and I think it is mostly from the right but I know also, it is also from the left, but and who will bring it up to try to because it is kind of like a shortcut, a metaphor for certain divisions that have always existed in this country between the you know, the left wing and the right wing, and people in the middle and so on. I mean, I speak personally and people, you know, my father and I had a big gap and we did not talk to each other for a few years and stuff like that and Vietnam was the crux of the issue and his role. But you know, we are, we are, we are way past that and like, I know that most of his friends that he stays in touch with from the military, you know, a lot of his lot of his friend's kids had the same kind of issue with their father. And that is long gone, you know, you, you know, you have their grandkids and things change, you know, so I think, I think, I think on a personal level, and I just think of like people that I talked to, or that I have talked to over the years, whether when I was organizing for, you know, stuff, and whether or not they supported me, whether or not they supported my side or still were on their side, I think that there is, we have, there is an ability to talk with each other now that did not exist then. And sometimes that might be all you can hope for, because talking is crucial to anything. But I think there will always be those on both sides, for good reason, in their mind, that will never let go. And they will go to the grave, angry at the stuff that went down, and the other side as they perceive them, and so on. But I do not it is kind of like the racial thing. I do not think the racial thing is as bad as it used to be either. I mean, you look around it, you see so many interracial couples, you see so many sports teams that, you know, kids are your kids or your grandkids or some relatives of yours, kids or whatever play on. And, you know, it is like, kids of all races, and they are, you know, they are playing together sports, and there is, and some of them are hanging out after school and stuff. So, so I think it is kind of changed. I am not saying it is gone, because I do not think it is. And like I said, I think there are those politicians and others who bring it up every once a while for-for their own reasons. And so, when they do that, it does get people riled up. I mean I admit, it gets me riled up when I see somebody. Like, Henry Kissinger still pisses the hell out of me.
SM: 1:17:05
Oh, yeah. He does everybody [laughs]. Yes.
RJ: 1:17:07
Yeah, and every time I see him on kind of, like, you know, someone you know, you know, I do not need- someone needs to drive a wooden stake through his heart because I think he is a vampire. But you know, you know what I mean? Like, if so, and Kissinger lives in his own world, so I do not think he really cares, because he kind of has such an arrogance. I do not think he thinks he is even human, but that is a whole other story.
SM: 1:17:26
You need to read, there is a brand-new book out called Reckless, you need to read it. It is about him.
RJ: 1:17:32
Oh, really? Okay. Thanks for the recommendation.
SM: 1:17:33
Yeah, it is called "Reckless." You will see it in the bookstores.
RJ: 1:17:36
Yeah sure, maybe my library has it. If not, I will order it. Yeah. Cool. Okay.
SM: 1:17:41
And he actually has written a book now called "Kissinger on Kissinger," when I go to Barnes and Noble I turn the book, I put the back side up on the book [laughs].
RJ: 1:17:51
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 1:17:53
The generation gap was something that was all talked about in the (19)60s, I mean, this generation gap. In fact, one of the people I interviewed was the guy on the front cover of Life magazine, who was had his picture with the glasses on talking with his father. And I actually interviewed him, had a great interview. And, but that was a really good book that he wrote too and they healed, I mean, but my main [inaudible] questions, you basically answered it, because the generation gap that we all heard about and experienced. And with respect, do you think it is really gotten a lot better between those people within families in particular?
RJ: 1:18:31
Yeah, I really do. I mean, I just think of things, you know, you get used to each other. That is one thing, you know. And then you know, something- I was I was down visiting my dad, he was in the DC area. I was down, visiting him last December and I happened to be over at his house when one of his old buddies came by, some- somebody who retired a couple of years before he did. And I had not seen him since he was still in uniform. And I was still I was, like, 22 years old or something. And he, we got to talking because he I was asking how I was friends with one of his daughters, and we got to talking about his kids. And he was talking about his grandkids and everything. And you know, and he looked at me and like, my hair is still really long. And he looked at me, he goes, Yeah, you know, he joked about it. I said, "Well, I will probably never cut it." He goes, "Yeah, that is because your father made you keep it short the whole time you lived at his house." And I said, "Yes, that is very true." And then my dad had him both, actually said to me, as our conversation went on, they go, "You know, Ron, you were more right about things than we were." And I thought that was interesting. I mean, he still has his opinions about the stuff that will never change, like about abortion and contraception and stuff like that, you know, but he said about the war and about-about who was really running the country and what-what the reasons they were, he said that they did not have the country's best interests in mind. And I used to get into arguments with him and that guy all the time. So that was kind of cool. Like, you know, to be, to be able to stay aware, study and look back on what you thought, and be able to change your mind. And I, and I have done the same thing. You know, there is some things that I was like really adamant about. And I was like, you know, really there is nothing, you know, they were right. There is something to be said about some of these things that have been around for generations and stuff, you know. So, it is kind of like, we will get to this point where he will say, "I grew up during World War Two." And you know, he was in high school during World War Two. And he goes, "I grew up during World War Two. And you know, there was a clear enemy. And then after that, we were told the Communists were the enemy." And he says that, "As it turned out, maybe they were not as big of an enemy as we thought they were, and what maybe we should have dealt with it differently." He said, "But when you are in the thick of things you do not know." And I said, "Yeah, well, that is kind of like the same thing for me." I was in the thick of things, and there were some things that I thought were great that I found out, well, maybe I should not have been champion, like, you know, Communist China or something, you know, what I mean, you know, that I definitely was, but you know, I would, I would just like to have, I would just to rile up my dad, I would have pictures of Mao on my wall, you know, just because just to make him see, you know, so you know, stuff like that. Now, I would never do that because, you know, Mao did great things, but he did a lot of terrible things, too. So, you know.
SM: 1:21:16
It is like me, when I first took a job at West Chester University in (19)87, the first person I met was a professor in political science, the chair, I went into his office, and he had a picture of Lenin behind his office. And he is, and then he had a picture of a man that was on his desk. And he said, before we even started the, to talk about it, because I was just meeting him for the first time he said, "The man be- on the wall behind me is my hero. And the man that is in that picture on my desk is the, is-is my enemy. I despise him." Well, that was the President of Bing- of Westchester University.
RJ: 1:21:53
Oh, really? Oh, that is funny. [laughter]
SM: 1:21:57
He was just rubbing me the wrong way, he just was testing me. He says, "I was only kidding." [laughter]
RJ: 1:22:03
That is great.
SM: 1:22:04
But, you know, it was a little bit of humor there.
RJ: 1:22:07
Yeah.
SM: 1:22:07
I have one other question, then I am going to get into your books. The-the Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65. How, how important was that movement in terms of the whole (19)60s era in terms of activism against, you know, the war and civil rights? A lot has been written recently about that Free Speech Movement, Ronald Reagan came to national recognition because of his war against the students at Berkeley. But your thoughts on that Free Speech Movement and the impact that it had on the (19)60s?
RJ: 1:22:42
I think the key thing, I mean, lot of the organizers were-were men and women who had been down doing [inaudible] registration out in the South. [cuts off]
SM: 1:22:58
Still there? Hold on.
RJ: 1:23:03
Okay.
SM: 1:23:04
Yeah, we are back. Yep.
RJ: 1:23:05
Okay. I think that it helped them see that the issues that they had been working on down South, were also related to issues that were their issues at home. And I think the whole time when-when they took [inaudible], and did the speeches for that 18 hours, or whatever it was, I think that was one of the most empowering things that young people could see that they could, that they could control the discussion for-for the while, and it kind of it was, in terms of empowerment, I think it was one of the key moments for the white student movement, especially.
SM: 1:23:44
You know, still there?
RJ: 1:23:46
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 1:23:47
You-you hit the word there, empowerment. When we brought Tom Paine Hayden to our campus, sadly, he is passed now. But six years ago, not six years ago, 10 years ago, I brought him just before I left Westchester. And he met with all of our student leaders, and we had dinner and he went to dinner and-and he was listening to what the students, he asked, "What power do you have? Do you have a voice here on campus?" And they all said, "Oh, yeah, we are involved in doing budgets, and we are on committees, we are appointed." And he is sitting there in amazement, he is shaking his head. No, he comes back and says, "I am not asking you about what power you have. I want to know if you are truly empowered." And then he went on to define empowerment. And they then they start shaking their heads. It is like, I do not know if I liked this guy. And so, it is a difference of generations here but what true empowerment means. Could you define the difference between power and empowerment, in when you discuss the (19)60s, especially those people who are in the antiwar movement?
RJ: 1:24:56
Power is something that somebody in my mind powers something that somebody else has. And some people try to take it for themselves. And they may or may not succeed, but you are not, empowerment is something that comes from within an individual and within a group. And when you realize that you as, as a group, or you as a class, or you as a gender or as a movement, have the power to change things without asking to do it. I mean, that is to me is kind of what I see. Whereas power is something you have to ask someone else to give you.
SM: 1:25:30
Very good. I agree. I am going to ask some questions about your book right now. I know you wrote the book, "The Way the Wind Blew." And there is a, there is a comment on the back of the book that I want you to respond to. You probably remember this. Jacobs argues that the group's eventual demise, this is the Weathermen.
RJ: 1:25:50
Yeah.
SM: 1:25:50
The group's actual eventual demise resulted in the, I will think I will read it from the book, I cannot read my own writing. My goodness. See here. He argues that the group's eventual demise resulted as much from the contradictions of his politics as from the increasingly repressive FBI attention. Could you go into detail on that?
RJ: 1:26:14
Yeah. In terms of politics, the original statement that you do not know a Weatherman statement was they basically, it is-I am trying to figure out a way to do without using too much jargon. They basically put the Black liberation movement as the as the vanguard of any revolution in the United States, above the working class, above any class. And then they also saw as, then they also saw themselves. And that is the fundamental basis of their, of their argument, and that they are the only that the thing that what the white movement could do was to support the Black liberation movement, especially as represented by the Black Panthers, and a couple other similar ultra-left organizations. Then after they did the Days of Rage, where they, they thought they were going to get 10,000 people, and they barely got 1000, at best, and they got in fights with, they started fights with the cops, and the cops beat them up and stuff like that. And then they went underground. And there, that was when they started calling. Everybody, except for people who agreed with them, pigs, and that if you were either on their side, or you are on the wrong side, and you know, you know, and that did not just mean policemen or politicians or businessmen or people who, you know, it meant the people who worked in the businesses, it meant GIS, it meant other students who disagreed with their politics or whatever. And then there was the whole contradiction when they decided to kind of, when they went underground. And there was a battle between, there was a strong debate between the different cells as to whether or not they should say whether or not they should use bombs to kill people. And as you probably know, like, they had the bomb that blew up in the townhouse in Greenwich Village, was intended to kill a bunch of soldiers at-at a dance at Fort Dix. Fortunately, fortunately, in the long run, and for those soldiers and their girlfriends, it did not kill anybody but three of the Weather Underground. But there is even within that group of people who are working in that townhouse, there was at least two of the four who did not agree with the idea to kill people, they just wanted to blow up, like, you know, like a recruiting office or, you know, put a bomb in the Pentagon or something like that, and call ahead and not and not kill, not hurt anybody. Because they wanted to have more symbolic attacks at that level. And then the other thing was when they came, then another contradiction that came up was when they decided to try to organize young people and the whole, they latched on to the counterculture and so on. And that became greater and greater, because there was two very different factions in the group. It is hard to say who represented who but I would say that Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn and the California group were more into the counterculture. And the New York group with David Gilbert and some of those people, some of the people from Boston, were more into maintaining a hardcore Marxist Leninism and not-not bombing as much and trying to actually do other kinds of underground activities. And so, there was all these contradictions that were bubbling up and what they, they came to a fruition after the United States left Vietnam because that was the main reason why Weatherman- Weather Underground existed was because of the Vietnam War. I mean, you know, a lot of them had about half of them that started in the anti-racist movement. But when the war came along, they became many of the leaders in SDS of the antiwar movement. And they would tie the anti-racist and the antiwar movements together a lot of as anti-imperialist movements. But then, when, when that happened, when the United States left Vietnam in April 30 (19)75, the group was pretty small by then. And there was a lot of debate within the group about where they should go next. Some members wanted to, Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, Jeff Jones, and a few of the other ones, some of the original founders who are still in the group, they wanted to go above ground. They wanted to turn themselves in, try to work out a deal where they only did a few months each or something. And then organize with the above ground or popular united front organizations they had to go into the working class and start organizing women workers, African American workers, Latino workers and young workers to try to create a new militant labor movement. But then there was this other faction that was led by an old guy who had, his name was Clayton Van Lydegraf, he had been kicked out of the Communist Party, kicked out of the progressive Labor Party, because he was too ultra-left. He was basically a guy who believed in propaganda of the deed, you know, so he convinced another group to go and start bombing again, and they got infiltrated. And that is how that group got arrested.
SM: 1:26:25
Wow.
RJ: 1:26:45
And then, you know, and so, so there are so many contradictions within the group. And then when you combine it with the fact that the Feds were kind of, the Feds were pretty close to catching them, and then they would not be because I think when the church committee hearings happened, a lot of those a lot of those investigations that were being conducted illegally had to be shut down, which is the only way you are going to catch someone like the Weatherman anyhow, because they had a very good underground network and so on. So, I hope that answers your question.
SM: 1:32:15
Yes, it does, I think Mark Rudd was in that group too, was not he?
RJ: 1:32:19
Yeah. And he left, he left back, like in (19)70 right after they were underground. He was underground for a little while. And then they, the women in the group asked him to leave the group because of his sexist sex- hardcore sexism. And basically, he left. And you know, he never snitched on anybody or anything. But he left. And you know, he is actually his book, he wrote a book.
SM: 1:32:42
Yeah, it is a good book.
RJ: 1:32:44
It is a very good book. And, you know, if you have the time, while you are reading, to check out a few of the different memoirs that have come out, they all, read them together, you kind of get an idea of the different, you know, they are all very intelligent individuals. And so, you get an idea of stuff that went on, within the group and so on. And then also on a personal level, Kathy Wilkerson's is very good too. She is one of the few women who has written-written a book on it. And it is a, it is a really good book, she sticks a lot more to the politics than some of the, some of the guys' memoirs do and stuff too.
SM: 1:33:18
Well, I have had a chance to meet Mark at Kent State. He is and I really liked him. He was a–
RJ: 1:33:22
Well, I heard he is a really nice guy. I have talked to him on the phone a couple of times, he helped me, like when I was writing my book, no one was talking about the Weather Underground. And they did not really know who I was. And my context, the guy who was like I was going to I had gone back to get my undergraduate degree. I was like, in my late 30s. And I wrote that as my senior thesis out at Evergreen College, and the guy who was my, one of my advisors, was a guy who had been in the antiwar movement in Boston. And he had been arrested down in San Diego, and charged with conspiracy to, the FBI tried to kill him and stuff. But um, and so but he had always disagreed with the Weather Underground. So, he only knew a couple people that would talk to me because most of them did not, they still had these grudges from the (19)70s, you know what I mean. But through him, so I was only able to talk to a few people, I was able to talk to Bill Ayers. And then I talked to a few guys who were still underground that I met actually two friends of mine, who knew them because they sold LSD to them.
SM: 1:34:29
I have met I have met Bill Ayers at Kent State as well. And-and then, of course, Bernadine, I interviewed her.
RJ: 1:34:37
Oh, that have been interesting. I have never really, I have met her like a couple of times, but I have never been able to sit down and talk with her or anything.
SM: 1:34:43
Well, I did a phone interview with her. And then I went to New York to take her picture along with David McReynolds, I mean, he just died last year.
RJ: 1:34:51
Oh yeah. Yeah-yeah.
SM: 1:34:52
And I took pictures of them together. It was, it is an interesting side note, I will send you an email on it, but I am still going to get her interview approval back. And of course, David died. So, I got to go through his brother. There is no question you feel that SDS died because of the Weatherman, correct?
RJ: 1:35:10
No, I do not, I think SDS was going to die anyhow.
SM: 1:35:15
Okay.
RJ: 1:35:16
I think it was, it had [cuts out]
SM: 1:35:23
Still there?
RJ: 1:35:28
You there?
SM: 1:35:29
Yep, I am here.
RJ: 1:35:30
Okay. In (19)68, you could see it when they started to go down the, when they started to become more Marxist, Leninist, and so on, they, they were going to automatically cut out a lot of folks who did not, who might-might have been interested in what Marx had to say, but we are not going to call themselves Leninists. You know, and they might have found Marx a good way to analyze capitalism, to find a fault with capitalism. But they were not going to, they were not going to say that they were pro, you know, dictatorship or proletariat, or anything. So, I think they were kind of at a at their end anyhow, it is too bad that nothing really came after them that had the popular groundswell of them and so on. Which is not to say that groups like Weather Underground and the progressive Labor Party cert- they certainly helped make that end come quicker, I think. You know, because I think if SDS had been around when Kent State happened as the SDS pre- Weather Underground, pre-progressive Labor Party, I think those protests might have taken a different turn. I do not, I think Kent State might have still happened. But [inaudible] they would have been able to sustain them past the original outrage and actually make it make a lot more of a long-term difference. But who knows, you know, it is one of those alternative history things.
SM: 1:36:53
One of the things you state in the book, I perused through it, I got to read it real, sit down, and really, I was reading it fast. Is that you talk about the, it is not about the personalities in the weather, weather men, it is about the political history of the organization. And there is a quote in there that the weather's insistence on an ant- what really affected you and you were influenced by them, is because of the weather's insistence on an anti-racist, anti-imperialist, anti-sexist analysis was fundamental to my political development. Is, is that a correct statement?
RJ: 1:37:30
Yeah, I think it is still true. I mean, then, because I used to read a lot of their, their newspapers and so on, especially when I was living in New York City, they were harder to get over in [inaudible]. But by the time I was living in New York City and stuff, and I was in a different group, but between their stuff, and some of the other groups, that was pretty fundamental to me becoming to choosing the politics, I thought, because they were trying to figure out a way to bring all three of those together. And some groups were more just on the anti-sexism. Others were more just on the anti-racism, and others were more just on the antiwar. And they, the Weather Underground and a couple other organizations that were on the, I guess they would be considered extreme left for sure. Not as extreme left as Weather Underground. But over definitely over in that direction. I think they were the groups that were trying to figure out a way to combine all those and make it fit to (19)73 America.
SM: 1:38:28
Yeah, I am going to go into your second book now, which was "Daydream Sunset, the Sixties Counterculture in the Seventies." Could you define, I have heard a lot of people talking about this counterculture. And could you define what you mean as a counterculture? And, and I noticed you mentioned it was centered on LSD and marijuana, it was crucial to the counterculture. Could you go on to that?
RJ: 1:38:53
Yeah, I would say the counterculture was a culture that was made up primarily of white middle classes at the beginning, and it spread to the working-class youth as time went on. It was founded in person, the idea of like an, it evolved from the Beats, the whole Beatniks and the Beat stuff, you know, and that is where they got the marijuana from, and that is where they got, you know, some of the other drugs from, but I think it evolved organically, or through a combination of economic situation at the time, to the fact that there are so many young people gathering together in different places, whether that was the workplace or college or high school, whatever. And then I really think LSD made a big difference. And I would say, in large part because of people like Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey, who proselytized LSD, they both did it in their own way. But, so and then the, the easy availability of LSD for a while and the fact that places like Greenwich Village and the Haight-Ashbury in San Fran- in New York and San Francisco respectively, were gathering places for young for young kind of footloose youth who did not want to work much and so on. And those kinds of scenes just kind of gathered and they spread throughout-throughout the country and throughout the western world [inaudible] into other parts of the world. But I think fundamentally, it was a movement involved in personal freedom, and in discovering personal freedom, and at the same time, loosening the bonds of sexism, and [inaudible] periods of puritanism. And also, in trying to figure out a new way to live together in a postindustrial world.
SM: 1:40:48
You also mentioned, and you talk about the tragedies, particularly around (19)70 of Kent State, Jackson State, all happening in May of that year. And of course, that was all linked to Nixon and the Cambodian invasion, so many books have been written on it. Nixon still has stated it was never an invasion, we had already been in Cambodia before. And it was just, and it was not very, very long. But of course, the anti-war movement had different feelings on that. In terms of, were they part of the end of the counterculture?
RJ: 1:41:23
I think it was part of the politicization of the counterculture, because I think the counterculture kind of carried on for a while. It was like, it kind of went from sex, drugs, rock and roll and politics, just to sex, drugs and rock and roll. I mean, if you think of the mid (19)70s, you know, I mean you could kind of look at it in terms of the bands. You know, you went from bands that were political and intent to bands like Led Zeppelin, you know no, I mean, Led Zeppelin's fine, but they were definitely not a political band in any way, shape, or form, you know. And then, and then a lot, you think of some of the other music.
SM: 1:41:58
Disco.
RJ: 1:41:58
You know, some of the bands-
SM: 1:41:59
You got disco too. [laughs]
RJ: 1:42:02
Disco started coming in, disco started like, among the gays, and African Americans, you know, but then when it got taken over by mainstream America, pretty much with that [inaudible] Saturday Night Fever, was that what it was called?
SM: 1:42:15
Yes-yes.
RJ: 1:42:16
And that kind of, that all the sudden, you heard disco everywhere. And you know, I was not ever a fan of disco, because I really, it just was not for me. [inaudible]
SM: 1:42:32
Could you say that, could you repeat that again? I missed it.
RJ: 1:42:37
You know, as well as me that disco was everywhere, it was almost impossible to go someplace where there was not a disco club.
SM: 1:42:44
Right.
RJ: 1:42:44
So.
SM: 1:42:46
You also have it here, the and I, it is another quote, the period we call the (19)60s is as much a myth as it is a truth as much maligned as it is championed. Want to explain that any further?
RJ: 1:43:01
Yeah, sure. I mean, it really happened. That is the truth part. But what really happened depends on who you were and what you saw, and where you were, and how you [inaudible], you know. And in terms of history, it is definitely as you know, you read a lot of books and you know, from, you know, it depends on who's telling you the history. And so, and then the missed part is just the myth. You know, I mean, it is like, Woodstock was this great, wonderful festival. And it was, but at the same time, a lot of that is myth. And that is where it moves into that. And [inaudible], we have talked about that. It has continued to maligned. I mean, there are people who know from that preacher you hear, that radio preacher you are talking about all the way up to today like Pat Robertson and people like that who say, and Rush Limbaugh, who say that everything bad happened because of the (19)60s, you know.
SM: 1:43:55
Right.
RJ: 1:43:56
So, and then there is other people on the other side who champion it on a you know, who still live like with the rose-colored glasses. I think most people who are intimately involved in it- people like Wavy Gravy, people like the Grateful Dead, most of the band that made up the Grateful Dead, and all the regular stuff, they probably all have just people every day, [inaudible] I am, they all have their own different viewpoints, some less cynical than others, probably and some very jaundiced.
SM: 1:44:30
I want to I want to quote something from the front of your book, and I am going to put it in the record for the interview and I thought it was very well written here. It is about Jackson Browne. And this is about the disintegration of the counterculture. Do you mind if I quote this?
RJ: 1:44:45
Oh, go for it.
SM: 1:44:46
Yeah, it is, it is on the very beginning. In the introduction, songwriter Jackson Browne had a similar understanding of the disintegration of the counterculture. His two was both apocalyptic and lyrical. Brown's three songs cycle of "For Every Man," "Before the Deluge" and "Pretender" appears on three successive disks. And it is a story of a generation and a culture trying to change the world while facing an apocalypse of war and environmental devastation, and ultimately, a ceding to the hegemony of the world and the system that tried so hard to change. "The Pretender," which is the final song of the cycle is a depressing admission that the system of corporate television, war, and nine to five jobs was more powerful than the world of the counterculture hoped to forge if only because it had more developed Foundation. The song itself is a tale of surrendering to that world, and numbing oneself to the reality via sex, drugs and Rock and Roll. Well, I that you wrote that. That is great. Any-any other thoughts on that? Because, you know, this is again, the power of music, like go way back in our interview, how powerful music can be. You talk about Hunter Thompson in here too you, we really made it I mean, we have talked about, I always tell students, the dots, the dots that connect the dots, and music is part of that. And if you listen to a lot of that music of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, you will see the dots connected within the music. Any other thoughts on, that you wanted on Jackson Browne, in the, in the record?
RJ: 1:46:30
There is, I talk about him and you know, I think it is pretty, I think it is pretty clear in terms of [inaudible] to those three songs. The middle one is about people fighting against the environmental devastation. And he was very big in the anti-nuclear movement, which was big in the mid (19)70s. And so that is kind of what he is talking about in that song, but in a much greater thing, he is talking about the counterculture in that in that generation. And then obviously in the last song, as I mentioned, there, you know, it is a song about a guy who goes to work, comes home, puts his glasses on, does some cocaine, has sex, wakes up in the morning, gets back in his car, goes to work dah-dah, dah-dah, dah, you know. There is a, in that, later on in that those first pages of that book, I talk about Bruce Springsteen, and he kind of came on board. He his first like National popularity was (19)75, when the "Born to Run" album came out, and Bruce was never a hippie, he was informed by the counterculture. He grew up in a working-class New Jersey, his dad was a factory worker and so on. And I think Bruce represents the (19)70s better than any other popular musician because of the way he chronicles individuals' lives first. In Born to Run, it is about people trying to get away from their dead [inaudible] you know, taking the same job in the same place that their dad had a job or their mom and then just racing or fast cars and then leaving, or trying to leave and then and falling in love and like trying to hide out on the beach in the summer and smoke pot or whatever. And then the next- and for him, it is about becoming a rock and roll musician as his way out of, of that life. Then the next album is "Darkness on the Edge of Town," which is basically about the people who did who get into the car culture. The town, I live in Maryland, on and off, my dad was stationed there, and then after I left moved out of there, my parents’ house, our culture was real big and like best people spent their money on, it was almost going back to the (19)50s. And then he kind of gotten he just follows that transcript, transition all the way up to people getting married, and getting divorced, and so on, always brings some of that reality about working, although being a member of the working class, and so on. And I think he really, he captures that that what happened to most people who are in the United States, most young people who are in the United States and who were not on the trajectory of college, and who were not on, who were not in the military, but who, you know, who were just trying to figure out how to how to make a life for themselves. And the counterculture gave them a lot of those kids hope that they could try something different. And some of them left their hometowns and went up to San Francisco or hit the road or started going to rock festivals or following the Grateful Dead around or something. But ultimately, most of them ended up, you have to face the reality of.
SM: 1:49:39
Right.
RJ: 1:49:40
And that is that is that economic hegemony that, you know, it just had more power, it won in its own way, but there are still elements that still exist throughout, throughout our culture.
SM: 1:49:54
Yeah, we talk about the two events that really were the watershed events. All the movements were important, but in Vietnam and the Civil Rights Movement, to me are the two that really make the (19)60s. Because with the Civil Rights Movement gave everybody experience and knowledge about how to protest. And, you know, they gave the kind of laid down some of the laws about protesting. And so those two, and I think, what is amazing about Dr. King is, when you think about Dr. King, he, he is one of the-the figures of the (19)60s because of the fact that he obviously, he believed in nonviolent protest, and he was involved in so many protests itself, the March on Washington, but it is that speech in (19)67, against the war in Vietnam, that links civil rights, and, and in the, in the anti-war movement in a very major way. Because toward the end of Dr. King's life, he was always talking about the economy and the economy. And he ended up dying, you know, in a city in Memphis, where the they were fighting for rights, the work was fighting for rights [crosstalk]
RJ: 1:51:04
Yeah, they were economic rights and to work yeah, exactly. To form a Union, yeah.
SM: 1:51:09
He is a, he is a major force, and he is a major force in my life because of who he is. And the mere fact that he lost a lot of friends in the civil rights movement for his stand on the Vietnam War. And so, it is a, it is, the (19)60s is just an amazing thing here. I have a question. A couple more questions. And then a couple of things to end. What are the most important books on the on the (19)60s that were written in the (19)60s or (19)70s that impacted you? I have a list here of a few, but what books did you read that had a great impact on you?
RJ: 1:51:43
Well, one of them was "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." Another one was "The Greed of America."
SM: 1:51:51
Oh, yeah. Charles Wright?
RJ: 1:51:53
Yeah, yeah. Another one was, I am trying to think which one- "Revolution for the Hell of it" by Abbie Hoffman?
SM: 1:52:00
Okay.
RJ: 1:52:02
And then there was one by Tom Hayden, I cannot, I think it was about the Chicago 8 trial. I think it was just called "The Trial."
SM: 1:52:10
Yep.
RJ: 1:52:10
Those are, those are ones that come to my mind pretty much quickly. There is, there is got to be other ones, but I cannot think of them right now.
SM: 1:52:19
I have Hayden's books. All of his books were just amazing. I, the "The Armies of the Night" by Norman Mailer.
RJ: 1:52:27
Oh, yeah, absolutely. That is an incredible book. Yeah.
SM: 1:52:28
That was another one. Theodore Roszak's, "The Making of a Counterculture."
RJ: 1:52:30
Yep. Yep, that is yep, okay.
SM: 1:52:35
There was James Farmer's "Nigger," the book, that was very popular. Eldridge Cleaver, "The Soul on Ice"
RJ: 1:52:41
Soul on Ice, yep-yep.
SM: 1:52:42
James Kunen, "The Strawberry Statement," and Ron Kovic's "Born on the Fourth of July."
RJ: 1:52:49
Absolutely yeah.
SM: 1:52:50
And anything Tom Wolfe wrote.
RJ: 1:52:53
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, of course. "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" was-was crucial to me. So was "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" and "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail" by Hunter S. Thompson. Yeah.
SM: 1:52:54
Because Tom Wolfe- Yep. And the, another question here is, there were a lot of you know, slogans from the (19)60s. What were the slogans that after that whole era, say from (19)60, to (19)75 slogans that you remember that had an impact on you that were so well known at the time?
RJ: 1:53:21
[whispers] Oh, man.
SM: 1:53:22
Slogans from civil rights leaders, African Americans, antiwar activists, politicians anything.
RJ: 1:53:30
Okay, right on the Black Power thing, Black Power right on.
SM: 1:53:34
Right.
RJ: 1:53:36
The 2,4,6,8- no, no, "Hey-hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?"
SM: 1:53:43
Right.
RJ: 1:53:45
Trying to take a couple of the other ones. I am trying to think there were some at the antiwar protests, but I cannot really remember right now.
SM: 1:53:57
Malcolm X had one, "By Any Means Necessary."
RJ: 1:54:01
Yes.
SM: 1:54:02
And of course, Jerry Rubin, "Do not trust anyone over 30."
RJ: 1:54:06
And "Do It."
SM: 1:54:07
Yeah.
RJ: 1:54:08
Just which-which Nike now uses I guess.
SM: 1:54:11
Yeah. I do not know how that some of these advertisers can get away with this stuff.
RJ: 1:54:14
Yeah-yeah, yeah.
SM: 1:54:15
I cannot believe that some of the people would approve, or their families would approve them to use some of these things.
RJ: 1:54:21
Maybe they it is it was not trademark, they cannot really do anything about it probably or something, yeah.
SM: 1:54:25
I would say that probably the one thing and this is just is that the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, even though as an organized group, they were not very large, I think they were one of the most influential antiwar groups in terms of moving regular Americans to start really challenging the war, besides the students, the students. I think, the VVAW, they are, it is difficult to measure how important they were in terms of changing middle America's mind about the war. I did not ask a lot of questions we were coming- we have now done two hours here, almost two hours. But I usually conclude by making some-some names for you to kind of respond to, but is there a question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask that you might want to respond to something that you want to state about the (19)60s or anything that I have been talking about, something that I have not asked? One of the things I noticed back then in the (19)60s to, you would have, I know, there was always the sexism within the antiwar movement and women in secondary roles. And that is a lot of the reasons why the woman's movement evolved. And even there was an issue with that with the nurses that served in Vietnam. I mean, it is a whole thing about when the wall was built, where were the nurses. So, it is like, there is a lot of that stuff. But one thing I did notice, and I would like your observations on this, too. When you look at the protests and the movements and so forth of the (19)60s, they would come together at protests, you will see, in the latter part of the (19)60s, you see, you know, the-the African American organizations, the women's groups, the gay and lesbian groups, and especially after (19)69, they would all be together in an antiwar movement. And they would come together. I asked David Mixner about this, I interviewed who was, you know, he was involved in both- the antiwar movement and-and he says, there is truth to this, that they are all separate now. The women's movement has their big rallies in Washington, the antiwar group, is basically the antiwar groups. It is, the gay and lesbian group [inaudible] their big events and so forth. And civil rights groups have those-they are not coming together, is-is my observation incorrect?
RJ: 1:56:54
I think it is more true than- no, I think it is pretty true. And I, I often wonder why that is, because when it comes to war, war affects everybody. And then also, I mean, I look over the years, and groups became more and more single issue in the late (19)70s, and going into the (19)80s, and into all throughout the whole (19)90s. And obviously, into the into this century. But I think part of it might be I mean, I-I am just filling stuff out there. I think part of it might be also because of the professionalization of a lot of the leaderships where they actually have these jobs and their organizations. Like back and back, like during the antiwar movement, there was only, there was only two or three antiwar groups that were at, that helped organize every single major antiwar demonstration. And even now, even those groups, the leadership was constantly changing, rotating itself. And they were not careers. Whereas I think a lot of times, nowadays, a lot of the social justice stuff, people make careers out of it. And you know, because it is done through an NGO or something like that. And that has a negative effect in one way and that it separates these groups. It also makes those groups more timid about joining things that might be more confrontational, because they might lose their funding from whatever philanthropic organization is giving them their money. So, there is, I mean, that is just one-one possibility, but I think that is absolutely true. I think they are more separate, even when there is big movements, like when they were going after the invasion of Iraq in 2003. And there were some pretty big protests. But–
SM: 1:58:38
Yeah, well, when I, when I interviewed David, he is a producer in New York, I guess. And he, he brought it up and he says, "Yeah, we have these big rallies for the gay and lesbian bisexual community. And they are, they are not reaching out to other groups." And he says, like, "I will see what I can do about that." I, he is a powerful leader in that community. But he is also involved in a lot of other things. So, I do not know what. I am going to conclude this if it is okay with you with just some personalities from the (19)60s and early (19)70s. I have a bigger list than this, but I will try to go fast. All you have to do is just give me a one- or two-word response.
RJ: 1:59:17
Okay-okay.
SM: 1:59:19
Tom Hayden.
RJ: 1:59:22
Solid, revolutionary–
SM: 1:59:26
Jane Fonda.
RJ: 1:59:34
Personality who made a lot of unpopular but morally right decisions.
SM: 1:59:41
Lyndon Johnson.
RJ: 1:59:44
A man caught between the war machine and his desire to help the poor.
SM: 1:59:49
Eugene McCarthy.
RJ: 1:59:54
Don Quixote.
SM: 1:59:56
Bobby Kennedy.
RJ: 2:00:00
A man who might have been able to unite the voting population of the United States.
SM: 2:00:05
John Kennedy.
RJ: 2:00:09
Somebody who died way too soon.
SM: 2:00:11
Dwight Eisenhower.
RJ: 2:00:15
(19)50s Classic.
SM: 2:00:17
Gerald Ford.
RJ: 2:00:19
(19)50s classic.
SM: 2:00:21
[laughs] Okay. Richard Nixon, Richard Nixon
RJ: 2:00:26
Joe McCarthy with a less ugly attitude.
SM: 2:00:29
[laughs] Dr. Benjamin Spock.
RJ: 2:00:36
Very moral human being.
SM: 2:00:39
Huey Newton. Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, the Black Panthers,
RJ: 2:00:45
Revolutionary heroes who never had a chance.
SM: 2:00:50
Malcolm X.
RJ: 2:00:52
Another revolutionary hero who was fated to die.
SM: 2:00:56
Jerry Rubin.
RJ: 2:00:59
A clown.
SM: 2:01:00
Abbie Hoffman.
RJ: 2:01:03
A clown with better politics.
SM: 2:01:05
Rodney Davis.
RJ: 2:01:12
A metaphor for a lot of people in, of his generation.
SM: 2:01:17
Timothy Leary.
RJ: 2:01:21
Self-centered, arrogant and very, very interesting.
SM: 2:01:26
Ralph Nader.
RJ: 2:01:31
Understated champion.
SM: 2:01:33
Hubert Humphrey.
RJ: 2:01:36
He got screwed.
SM: 2:01:39
Barry Goldwater.
RJ: 2:01:42
The beginning of the racialization of the Republican Party.
SM: 2:01:49
George Wallace.
RJ: 2:01:51
Racist.
SM: 2:01:52
Martin Luther King Jr.
RJ: 2:01:55
Hero.
SM: 2:01:56
Muhammad Ali.
RJ: 2:01:57
Another hero.
SM: 2:01:58
Spiro Agnew.
RJ: 2:02:04
Sucker.
SM: 2:02:06
Gloria Steinem.
RJ: 2:02:11
Intelligent, middle class, feminist.
SM: 2:02:16
John Lewis.
RJ: 2:02:20
So, oh, John. No, John Lewis, the African American guy?
SM: 2:02:24
Yes.
RJ: 2:02:26
A hero who made too many compromises.
SM: 2:02:31
Byard Rustin.
RJ: 2:02:33
Same. Hero who made too many compromises.
SM: 2:02:36
Richard Daley.
RJ: 2:02:40
I cannot say anything good about him.
SM: 2:02:42
Robert McNamara.
RJ: 2:02:44
I cannot say anything good about him either. He was an intellectual who wasted his brains.
SM: 2:02:49
Daniel Ellsberg.
RJ: 2:02:51
He was a hero and an intellectual who did the right thing.
SM: 2:02:55
Woodward and Bernstein.
RJ: 2:02:58
Too, they, you know, I wanted to- I am a little bit of a journalist. To me, what they did was one of the more heroic things of that time. So, they are heroes.
SM: 2:03:08
Angela Davis.
RJ: 2:03:10
Also a hero.
SM: 2:03:11
Bella Abzug.
RJ: 2:03:14
Fascinating and militant.
SM: 2:03:16
Jackie Kennedy.
RJ: 2:03:23
One of the strongest popular personalities and woman, women that I can think of.
SM: 2:03:30
And I got about five more. Walter Cronkite.
RJ: 2:03:35
He was the bearer of the news good and bad, but he always did it with a sense of justice.
SM: 2:03:41
And then musicians. Jimi Hendrix.
RJ: 2:03:46
Best guitarist ever, died too young.
SM: 2:03:48
Janis Joplin.
RJ: 2:03:54
A true, true hippie who could think.
SM: 2:03:59
The Beatles.
RJ: 2:04:01
They were kind of like demigods.
SM: 2:04:05
Elvis Presley.
RJ: 2:04:08
Almost the dad- almost the daddy of rock and roll.
SM: 2:04:11
And of course, and there are other musicians that you would like to put in there, solo or groups that that should really define the (19)60s if you want to add a lot more on to there?
RJ: 2:04:24
Just a couple, I would like to add Bob Dylan as the-the poet and Nobel Laureate in real truth actually now but of the genera- of the time, and the Grateful Dead as the people, the torchbearers of the counterculture.
SM: 2:04:40
Yeah, I will I will add Richie Havens on to this because to me, he was the symbol of the spirit of the era.
RJ: 2:04:46
Yeah, that is, that is good. That, his version of freedom in Woodstock movie says it all.
SM: 2:04:53 Yep. And so, I, that is basically it. I am done here now. Do you want to add anything else or finished?
RJ: 2:05:03
I think I am done also, thanks. Yep.
SM: 2:05:05
Yep, well what will happen here is we have got the copier, and this is on the digital machine. Now the guy, young man, set it up, and then I will turn it off. You will get a copy sent to you Ron.
RJ: 2:05:16
Okay.
SM: 2:05:17
It will either be sent through the computer or it will be sent to your home address. And, and now, if you could email your home address to me again, I so that we can mail it to you. And then, or we will do it over the computer, we have your email, and we will go from there. And then there is a form you have to sign too, but you have to listen to it first and approve it before anything- Okay, sure- is okay. It has been an honor to talk to you, I apologize for taking so long to do this. I did not know I was going to tear my knee up. And I have still got my crutch here to the side. And I will be interviewing John Sinclair sometime in the next month, I hope.
RJ: 2:05:56
Oh, that would be fun.
SM: 2:05:57
I can work that out. And, and then I do need some pictures of you. I need a couple pictures that you can mail to me because of the 275 people that I originally did, I think about 230 I interviewed them in person, the rest I did over the phone, so I have to get approved pictures from them, that ones that are over the computer.
RJ: 2:06:19
Okay, so I can just send you a couple?
SM: 2:06:21
Yeah, send me a couple that they have been approved. And if somebody took the pictures of you, you have to tell me who the person is.
RJ: 2:06:27
Sure, sure. Okay.
SM: 2:06:28
They have to get the credit for the picture. And look at and we have a bio, if you could do a brief bio and send it to me, unless there is a bio on the on the computer. That would be helpful too. Because what is going to happen is these tapes will all be available for research and scholarship. That for students and faculty, and they will be, the center will open I think at the end of this year or the beginning of 2020. And they are going to let them available for research right now. And we have got 105 Already done of the original group we have got- 31 died since I started this.
RJ: 2:07:07
Oh, wow.
SM: 2:07:07
So, I have gotten about 15 of those who died, the families to approve, but some of the people I cannot find, it is a big effort. But anyways, but you are going to- it is your important because your name will far outlive any book that I might have done for an oral history interview book. Because they will be people- we looks listening to your voice.
RJ: 2:07:28
Right.
SM: 2:07:29
And the tape 100 years from now.
RJ: 2:07:32
Right.
SM: 2:07:33
So that is what makes this project even more important.
RJ: 2:07:36
Yeah, thanks for doing it.
SM: 2:07:37
Yep. And again, thank you very much, continued success in all that you do.
RJ: 2:07:42
Thank you same to you and I will send that, I will get find some pictures and so on and send you that my mailing address and we will go from there.
SM: 2:07:52
Okay, great. Thanks Ron, have a great day.
RJ: 2:07:55
Yep take care you too. Bye-bye.
SM: 2:07:56 Bye.
(End of Interview)
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ron Jacobs
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ed9ea73b421e90ccf3474dfdb34128f7.jpg
8271af811647c16d2b6b6b9162071982
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6ec1f20699b862e3a52f4c1fd838b82d.mp3
2f3fe226151b880f63400eeff86c8e8f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s and 2010s. The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan continues to interview legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from a metadata field.
Date of Interview
8/7/2019
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rennie Davis, 2
Biographical Text
Rennie Davis (1940-2021) was a spiritual lecturer and an activist. Davis was an American anti-Vietnam war protest leader of the 1960s. He was one of the Chicago Seven defendants. He has appeared on several shows including Larry King Live and Barbara Walters and has provided business advice for the Fortune 500 companies. Davis was an alumnus of Oberlin College.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
2:31:02
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Digital file
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Michigan; economics; farm; chicken contests; basketball; police brutality; Vietnam; Chicago Seven; 1968 Democratic National Convention; Martin Luther King Jr.
Subject LCSH
Chicago Seven Trial, Chicago, Ill., 1969-1970;
Political activists--United States;
Davis, Rennie--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Rennie Davis
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Lynn Bijou
Date of interview: 7 August 2019
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM: 00:03
Yeah, I-I got a whole set of questions I am going to ask you. It is going to be about your life and everything. And so, speak right into the- clearly as you can. Thanks, Rennie for doing this, I really appreciate it. I know I interviewed you at Silver Spring a couple of years ago, but I want to do something a little more in depth. Because we, we just touched on a few things then. I would like to first start out, what did your parents do for a living? When, a little background on where you grew up, what your parents did. And talk about your years as a kid through high school, and the kinds of activities you may have been involved in in high school. [silence] Hold on, hold on a second. Hold on a second.
RD: 00:59
Okay.
SM: 01:00
Okay. Go right ahead.
RD: 01:02
So, I was born in Lansing, Michigan, and my father was a professor of economics at Michigan State. [clears throat] And in the, this was 1940. And in 1942, with the war beginning, he moved himself and the family to Washington D.C., it becomes something of a renowned expert in the field of labor productivity. And, how, so there were, you know, lots-lots of-lots of decisions being made by the government, you know, in, in his field. So, he came in as a very, in a fairly prominent position and, and he basically, devolved into becoming the-the, the head of the staff of President Truman's Council of Economic Advisers. -and I, [chuckles] I got really into it, and I, you know, I realized there was a science to it, especially hens that were laying eggs would molt their-their, their-their, their skin with bleach in a particular order. So, you know, the egg would come out of the bed, and the, the bed would bleed first. I mean, by bleach I mean it go from a kind of a yellow color to a whitish color. And then the beak would bleach from the back to the front of the beak at a particular order. And, and then depending on the breed and the type of bird, you-you could predict the, the number of eggs that the that chicken has laid, since it last molted-
SM: 02:08
Wow.
RD: 02:10
He, then bought a farm in Virginia as kind of a weekend retreat. It was about 70 miles west of Washington, down in the Shenandoah, near the Shenandoah River, you know, kind of between the Shenandoah River and the Appalachian Trail is really beautiful place. And when Eisenhower came in, he was considered, a so-called liberal economist and actually got kind of blackballed, really in government for a while, and could not get- you know lost his job, and, you know, could not get another one. And so he-he decided that what he would do is just, move the whole family out to the farm, and-and make a go of it, you know, he himself had been raised at South Hall of Ohio, and, you know, had had kind of, you know, a farming background of sorts, you know. He was a pretty cool guy, really. So, he is, he moved out and he bought the local feed store in the, in the county. And so, suddenly, we, you know, we, we owned the place, that was the hub for all the farmers in the area, I mean, came and got their feet and you know they would come, and talk and tell their stories. I mean, I just loved it, you know, [laughter] I could work so hard and meet these characters. You know, this is rural Virginia.
SM: 03:52
Yes.
RD: 03:52
And it is, it is you know, Berryville, Virginia is where the feed store was. And the farm was about 12 miles from Barrett Ville. [coughs] I mean, our nearest neighbor was a half mile down the road. So, we were, there is a 500-acre farm, and we, you know, we made a goal but we, you know, we had, we had 6000, boiler chickens-
SM: 04:18
Oh my.
RD: 04:19
-every 10, 10 weeks, that, you know, were part of the, of the family income and, you know, I managed that and then I went on to so I was in high school, you know, you know the in our graduating class in high school with 50 people. You know, we, there was a little period where in this tiny high school, won the state football champion, you know, year after year after year.
SM: 04:50
Wow.
RD: 04:50
I mean just- [laughter] just tough little TCS. And so, you know, so I-I basically got recruited by the four H county agents, you know, to join the four H club. You know, I-I-I showcase though, you know, my steer and the competition so forth. But, what drew me in was chicken judging-
SM: 05:29
[laughs] Oh my goodness. -its production cycle. And then I discovered that there was also a relationship. I mean, I had a theory about it, I kept testing it, that there was a relationship between the weight of the chicken and, and the, and the number of eggs that were laid. And so, what I would do is, have a scale, and I picked up a chicken and estimate its weight, and then put it on the scale until I could refine myself to-to predict pretty accurately the weight of a chicken. You know, and I mean, I spent an hours [laughs] practicing this thing. [laughs]
RD: 06:54
So, when I went out to the, my first contest, you know, I won the Clark County chicken contest, you know, so-
SM: 07:03
Wow.
RD: 07:04
-I mean, the first time I was ever in a newspaper, I was holding a chicken-
SM: 07:10
[laughs]
RD: 07:11
-grinning from ear to ear because we just was not counting time, it is a big deal, you know?
SM: 07:16
Yeah, yes. [laughter]
RD: 07:21
The chicken had just pooped on my pants.
SM: 07:23
Oh, no. [laughs]
RD: 07:25
I had no idea. So, I had by embarrassment, you know, when the picture came out, there was [crosstalk]. Funny stories like that, you know, so but then I went on to win the state, Virginia state contests. And then I won the east coast, the whole east coast had a contest I went to, and then I went to the-the international contest in Chicago. So, the first time I went to Chicago was to judge chickens.
SM: 08:02
Wow.
RD: 08:03
And basically, I felt that the judges just did not have my knowledge of chickens. And so, I do not know, I wound up, you know, being ninth or something like that. I mean, I was just humiliated to me, you know-
SM: 08:21
[laughs]
RD: 08:21
-because I fully expected to win the international contest. And then I blamed the judges that they did not know what they were talking about. [laughs]
SM: 08:30
Now, now, in 1968, if you had a break, during the activities, did you go over to that area and see where you had that contest?
RD: 08:41
I did not really do that. [laughter]
SM: 08:42
No nostalgia? [laughs]
RD: 08:43
There was a little too much going on.
SM: 08:47
Yeah. [chuckles]
RD: 08:50
Like there were people who did, you know, articles on my background, who would discover that this was the first time I came to Chicago and so there was some news about us. You know, back in (19)68.
SM: 09:05
[laughs] What was the name? What was the name of your high school?
RD: 09:09
Clark County High School. And yeah, it was then, you know, I, I basically, you know, when I was in Washington, I was a B student, but I came to Clark County, I, I was an A student. I had one B, in I did not know it was [inaudible], you know, some typing or something like that, you know-
SM: 09:37
[laughs]
RD: 09:37
-ninth grade, and I was always upset because I-I got all A's except for that one B. And, and they counted valedictorian was measured based on three years and a semester rather than the full four years. I would have been valedictorian if we could have measured it in 4 years.
SM: 10:01
[laughs]
RD: 10:01
But anyways, three and a half years, so I was salutatorian. I had, I had good grades, I was the president of the student body and I was also the editor of the school newspaper and I belong to various organizations and I played. I was on the varsity basketball team.
SM: 10:24
And were you the guard?
RD: 10:27
I was the guard. Yeah, I we had a barn that I put up a basketball hoop. So, I was able to stand on the very outer edge of the of this barn and, and practice a shot there. It would have been, you know, in basketball terms, it was kind of beyond the key. So, it was a long shot, you know.
SM: 10:52
Right.
RD: 10:53
And I got pretty deadly with that shot. [laughs] Practicing with the bar.
SM: 10:59
[laughs]
RD: 10:59
So that was my only claim to fame really was I could I could nail it from a great distance. And so, it got me all the you know, so I played first string varsity because of that shot.
SM: 11:13
You know, "Pistol Pete" did that Pistol Pete Maravich. He practiced, I think like that. And of course-
RD: 11:18
Oh yeah?
SM: 11:18
-he became a great shooter. And now and when I think of you again, Rennie, I am going to think of you as "Pistol Rennie."[laughter] Okay, now we were after high school, where did you go to college?
RD: 11:34
I went to Oberlin College. And I actually, you know, and I really have no criticism, why bother about this? I think I would probably do the same thing. I won a four-year scholarship, if I would still study animal husbandry at-at VPI over at Virginia State University. So no, my dad wanted me to take the scholarship, you know, obviously, but and, you know, he explained that the president of the Michigan State had graduated in animal husbandry, so it did not limit you in any way, you know. But I do not know, I was just, you know, I did not really know much about overland really, you know, other than I just heard, it was a really fine school. And, you know, turns out that, you know, its graduates, you know, rank the highest in grades, you know, in graduate school. I did not know that at the time. So, when I went to Oberlin, I mean, the first, the first evening, I sat at a table was, there was, you know, 10 people at the table. And I, you know, we started introducing ourselves and, and everybody at the table was a national American dollar, except me. [laughter] And then, the very first grade I got was an English composition, that I got an F.
SM: 13:07
Oh, no.
RD: 13:09
[laughs] I have never gotten anything, but A's, you know. So, I was just lucky. So the first year, I did not really talk to anybody, I just went, you know, I just studied until two in the morning and I went all out studying, you know, so, but the first year it got me back, you know, in, you know, kind of able to hang in there.
SM: 13:31
Right.
RD: 13:31
So, I would say I was a B student, but by the sophomore year in Oberlin College. You know, we, Tom Hayden came to Oak alone and, you know, met with a group of us we had started, we had started a political party, in in tents. I was a sophomore. And the idea was to bring political issues into student government, you know, like civil rights.
SM: 14:03
Oh, yes.
RD: 14:03
And so we were, we were all following what was happening in the south. This was like, the second semester of my sophomore years, this is 1960. So yeah, so basically, with-with a first election, I mean, I was the, you know, the sort of the helpless center of this political party, either what title it was, I guess I was the president of the party or something, I do not know. And so, we-we swept the election, we-we won every seat you know. Suddenly, we-we had real influence in the college, you know, I mean, we-we took on racism in private housing and overload and things like that. And it was, it was really quite remarkable. When Tom came through, you know, he basically you know, he-he and his-his friends were at the University of Michigan and they had done the same thing; they created a political party too, it was the same idea. We had never talked to each other about it, but then they had similar success. But Tom wanted to basically organize something with students, you know, in the, you know, throughout the country and the north, especially-
SM: 15:25
Right.
RD: 15:25
-which was really turned into SDS: Suits for a Democratic Society. So, once after Tom came through, I would say, I was in the movement, basically full time, you know, I never, [chuckles] I mean, I-I would I-I could study and pass tests, you know, that sort of thing. When I, when I graduated, I went to the University of Illinois, and Labor and Industrial Relations, and it was a fairly good school, a lot of Japanese students. And I, you know, I never really, I mean, you know, -II would just study. I-I actually had the highest-grade point average in the history of the university, but it was-
SM: 16:09
Wow.
RD: 16:09
-because I could cram at the end, you know. [laughter] Classes, or did very well. So, anyway, you know, the, you know but the good grades in the University of Illinois gave me quite remarkable scholarship opportunities. And I went into, we all gathered at the University of Michigan, in graduate school, that by we, I mean, kind of the leadership of SDS: Todd Gitlin, Paul Potter, you know, myself, Rob Berlage. I mean, pretty much everybody went to the University of Michigan. And that is where we kind of really formulated, you know, what we were going to try to do for the decades.
SM: 17:01
Is that, is that picture that I se- that is on the web is Tom is on the left, and you are on the right, and there is a whole group of other students in the middle. I know Todd Gatlin to one of them.
RD: 17:13
Right, yeah.
SM: 17:13
And I believe, and I believe Richard Flax is there too.
RD: 17:17
Yeah.
SM: 17:18
And his eventual wife, I forget. And I think she was there. And so, and there are a lot of other ones. Is that the picture the group you are talking about?
RD: 17:28
Well, a lot of them were at the University of Michigan, but that basically was a, SDS conference. Picture that. Yeah, that was in that time. You know, I am not a quite a, you know, want to say poor here on but I am not sure about that. I am not quite I know Clark, Kissinger took that picture. I have seen it too. But anyway, that was that was an SDS conference meeting. That is really what that picture was.
SM: 18:05
Did Tom talk when he when you met him about meeting President Kennedy and a group of students in the library steps at Michigan when he was coming through? They were running for president.
RD: 18:19
I-I heard about that. But I did not come from Tom. I am not sure who has shared that with me. I knew about it, but I did not. I do not think Tom and I ever talked about it.
SM: 18:32
Now, did you form an SDS chapter then at Overland?
RD: 18:38
Not really. I mean, we had the progressive CSL, prudent progressive student league was the name of our campus political party and, and we were affiliated loosely with what SDS people were doing. But I once-once the-the movement, so called movement started, for me, I-I was not really doing much locally at all. I mean, at the University of Illinois, where was a liberal luncheon that was pulled together by Robert Ebert. No, who was a kind of a film critic. I mean, became a film critic.
SM: 19:28
Oh, Roger Ebert. Yes-yes.
RD: 19:30
Yeah. And, we had a similar situation where there was really blatant racism with off-off campus housing. So, the university basically lists these houses were available. Your brand is for students, so they have the support of the university, but they would not allow black people to stay there. And so, we had a, so I, I proposed that we just take the whole university out on strike to stop it, you know. And so, what happened was, I went in and met with the president of the University of Illinois, just myself, and to help told them that, you know, we were going to basically shut the university down over this issue. And it was it, we never had to do anything. They-they were just terrified of us, but you know, but then they changed their policy.
SM: 20:37
What year was this? What year?
RD: 20:40
Oh, my goodness, let us see. So, I graduated from Oberlin of (19)62. So, I guess I would be in (19)63, when that happened.
SM: 20:51
Okay. Now all, there was a lot of things going on, the end of the Vietnam wars, has not become a front-page item by that time. But were you aware of that-
RD: 21:05
Yeah, yeah. Vietnam really became more front page when U.S. troops, you know, actually went into Vietnam. I mean, there was covert activities, and we were aware of it, but it was 1965, when troops actually were sent to Vietnam. That, I mean, it was 16. Four, I was in, we wanted to go into communities, and do community organizing the way this southern snick students were working in the south.
SM: 21:44
Yes, mhm.
RD: 21:44
So, I went, I became the director of a thing called the, "Economic Research and Action Project." And-and basically, we started in the summer of 1964. We started 10 community projects, Tom went to Newark, and I moved into a white Appalachian Community and called uptown-
SM: 22:12
Wow.
RD: 22:12
-Chicago. And there was another white community in Cleveland that we went into. And so, they were the idea was, they were poor communities, and we were going to support them to try to, you know, give them more of a voice, you know, tenants that were, you know, where their buildings were run down, you know, would-would form tenant unions and welfare mothers with for welfare unions. It was, you know, I was there for three years, basically.
SM: 22:49
Wow.
RD: 22:50
And uptown as an organizer, I mean the first night that we were there, the city knew we were there. I mean, we had, I think the first night they were 40 students who were going to join the project. And we were all in one apartment building, you know, sleeping on the floor-
SM: 23:14
[laughs]
RD: 23:14
-the police, the police you know, just basically broke down the door and came in and, you know, had guns drawn and put guns at our head-
SM: 23:26
Oh my god.
RD: 23:27
-and were screaming at us, you know, we-we, I mean we had no idea, we were, everybody was asleep, you know. And so, we were carted off and taken to jail. We had no idea why or what the thing was, you know, and so, we, you know, we-we got out on bail the next morning. And-and the, the Chicago Tribune. You know, the front page was about we were having a beer drug party, and it was broken up by police and we were arrested, you know. So that, that gave me my first reality check on where I was, [laughs] now in Chicago. Yes.
SM: 24:09
My gosh.
RD: 24:09
The way that, Mayor Daley was going to let anybody come in and mess with his city. And, so yeah, we had one other raid you know later where they came in and just broke through the plate glass window, the office and literally, be chickpea chairs. And you know, I mean, it was just, it was just amazing. Really, you know. No one was arrested or heard and that was at the middle of a night. And, we had young people and teenagers who marks on the police against police brutality, which was a very severe issue for, for that, you know age group.
SM: 24:53
Yes.
RD: 24:57
There was tension. I mean, there were, I mean, you know, it was one of those times where, you know, one false move and, you know, you could be dead, you know, I mean, there was police lined, both sides of the street, it was quite, quite on the edge of tension, you know, and risks.
SM: 25:14
This is quite-
RD: 25:15
You know, so there was a lot of a lot of bravery. And you know, it was not organizing that easy. And especially in a white community but, you know, we-we did you know, I mean, welfare mothers, had sit-ins and got, you know, got a voice at the welfare office where grievances could be heard in a more orderly way. I mean, there were there were changes that took place it was, it was rather remarkable. And it was quite a, quite an experience of my life, [chuckles] you know three years and up [inaudible]
SM: 25:46
Wow.
RD: 25:47
But then, the SDS organized the first march, or the first rally against the war in, in Washington, D.C., I did not even go but I mean, I was obviously involved with it. And basically, with that, I realized that the movement was moving on, you know, we, it was time to basically come out of the community and return to a national perspective.
SM: 26:18
Oh yes.
RD: 26:19
It was really with that demonstration in Washington, it was about 25,000 people, that I, you know, started to, you know, I am leaving Chicago and starting to return to [inaudible]. I guess the first thing that happened was the, you know, we-we were making contact with the Vietnamese to learn more about Vietnam, and we were invited to a conference by, organized by the Vietnamese basically, to basically they were, said they wanted to share their, their history and their point of view about the war with a, with a cross section of the American anti-war movement. So, 42, Americans went to Bratislava, Czechoslovakia. And, you know, Martin Luther King was, was going to go was on that delegation, but he had schedule conflict at the last minute and, and did not go, but we, you know, we went and, you know, I mean, we look like the ragtag group, you know, we would have the hardship of crossing the ocean and plane, you know. [chuckles] The Vietnamese were all there waiting, you know, dressed in elegant, formal clothes.
SM: 27:41
[laughs]
RD: 27:42
You know, then there was this beautiful woman who just, you know, was clearly kind of a centerpiece for their group, which we had no idea who she was, but she turned out to be mad. And when she been, and-and she had basically come from, she was at that point, you know, on the Central Committee of the, of the National Liberation Front, was in the south herself. And basically, I would take six months to, of travel to basically come to this conference, Madam Being. And, and so and then it turned out that it was, it was the most prestigious conference of, of Vietnamese, I mean, legislators and high-level people, both in the north and the south. It was the highest-level delegation of Vietnamese since the Geneva Convention in 1954 that ended the war with the French.
SM: 28:40
Wow.
RD: 28:41
It was very impressive, you know, we had no idea that anything like that would happen. And so, so it was very informative and eye opening. And so, they, you know, and they was not too scripted. I mean, they were, struggled some with their English, but-but generally, it was, you know, it was, you know, they were very sincere people, and they, you know, they were moving and touching and, you know [chuckles] so that at the, at the very end of the conference, seven of us were selected by them to come to Hanoi if we wanted to, and that included Tom Hayden and myself.
SM: 29:22
Wow.
RD: 29:23
And so, we made one of the very first trips into Hanoi. And then we were, you know, Hanoi was absolutely off limits from the military point of view, the mill-the Pentagon's position was that it was only bombing steel and concrete, military targets in Vietnam. But every single day, we were in Hanoi, we had to go into bomb shelters, and-and, and bombs would go off in the city of Hanoi-
SM: 29:56
Wow.
RD: 29:57
-and we-we would then get in a car afterwards and drive out and see a whole city block gone.
SM: 30:04
Wow.
RD: 30:04
And so, I mean, Hanoi was definitely being bombed. And-and you know, then we would go into villages where, you know, obviously people were being bombed, especially by cluster bomb units, which really is anti-personnel weapons. So, by this point, I-I was pretty steamed up, you know, and so I-I came back on the day, what-what happened was that organizations like SDS, were doing things against the war, but there was no coalition, kind of similar to today. There is no real permanent coalition that makes the teaching planning possible. It just or you know, just sort of spontaneously, if something's going on in the media, and social media picks up on it, you know, you can get a pretty good turnout on something but you cannot hold it together afterwards. So, we, got a cup from 1965 with the SDS, anti-war gathering, we-we organized a coalition. And by 1967, we had 150 national organizations in a coalition, called the "National Mobilization Committee Against the War in Vietnam." And, we put on our first demonstration in October of 1967. And that was the-the day that I returned from Hanoi. So, I was obviously a key speaker. My talk was carried live on television, my dad, at this point, my dad had, been hired by the, by the government, he was back in good graces, I guess, to become the Secretary of Labor. In a kind of a, I do not know whether to call it a shadow government. It was it was the government that if there was nuclear war, could function, somehow. And so, you know, he was the Secretary of Labor in that government, and they basically what they did was they just made constant plans of every scenario. And his task was how labor could be utilized under different kinds of conditions. And they, there was a very hard rock on the mountain where our farm was. At the top of the mountain, they converted that into a government installation, called Mount Weather. And, and basically, my dad worked at Mountain Weather. And so, when I was going into, when I was in Bratislava, and when invited to Hanoi, I, we were on a party line. You know, our phone number was one, seven, four, J, one, two, that was our phone number at the farm. So, it meant that, if you heard one long ring and two short rings, that meant we should pick up. That was our- one long ring two short rings was our-our heart, our signal, you know, the whole neighborhood would pick up too, probably 14 people on the party line.
SM: 33:32
[laughs]
RD: 33:34
So, so I knew it was not a good idea to call my dad from Bratislava to tell him I am staying in Hanoi.
SM: 33:41
[laughs]
RD: 33:42
So, I just figured I would tell him when I got back. But, he was when I was, in Laos getting ready to board an ICC plane into Hanoi, the, I mean, they had one of the most advanced security operations in the U.S. government at Mount Weather. So, a group of people came to my father's office and said, "Are you aware that your son is about to go into Hanoi?" He-he was in shock, you know, there was no way that was possible. And so, when then he sees me on television, you know, coming back from Hanoi, and so there was a little period where my dad and I were at odds. [laughs] We were very close family, and it did not last long. [inaudible]
SM: 34:31
[laughs] Right. Rennie, what was the year when the first conference happened that when the 40 some people went to Hanoi, what year was that?
Unnamed speaker: 34:42
That was, October 1967.
SM: 34:46
And then you went a second time, correct?
RD: 34:50
Yeah. And then I went again in (19)69 because the Vietnamese decided to do a peace gesture, by releasing prisoners of war. And they had an historic, policy because they have been at war for so long, I mean, with different countries and everything. And essentially, the concept was that when they were at war, they were not at, their war with a government of that country, but they were not at war with the people. And so, they recognize, the people of the country as legitimate spokesmen, not the government, and who, and whatever group emerges as most broadly representing the peace sentiment of the population, then comes the official representative of-of, to them of who they will recognize. And so, our coalition was, you know, obviously, the largest coalition, anti-war coalition, in the United States. And I at this point, I was the coordinator of that coalition.
SM: 36:01
Wow.
RD: 36:01
And so, and it done Chicago. So, I, to them, I was the official representative of the American people. So, they would only release the prisoners to me, personally, if I came.
SM: 36:15
Wow.
RD: 36:16
So that was quite heavy. [laughs] You know it was like, oh okay. We went before the judge, obviously, you know, we were in, we were about to go into a trial of this point. And-and, I mean, I was just astounded. The State Department sent out a high-level person from Washington to represent me before the judge that this was in the national interest that I go. And, and Judge Hoffman, our judge turned it down, that pointing out that the U.S. and Vietnam, North Vietnam did not have an extradition treaty, so I could go and never come back. And so, he-he denied my right to go to Hanoi pick up P.O.W [prisoners of war].
SM: 37:01
And that is-
RD: 37:02
And so, they-they, I mean, they would just appeal it, you know, in 45 minutes, it was reversed on appeal. But it was still quite a quite a statement about what was about to happen with the trial, you know, I-then I went to Hanoi and pick up the P.O.W.'s and we had about a two-week, trip. And, so I wanted to go to the, the Panhandle region because between the (19)90s and the (19)70 parallel, this is still in North Vietnam. I knew that I mean, I have heard anyway, that more bombs were dropped in this tiny little section of the world then were dropped in all a WWII and Korea combined. And I just could not imagine what that place must be like and no one has seen it, and no westerner had gone into the Panhandle. And so, you know, I pleaded with the Vietnamese let me make a trip to the Panhandle. They were, it was very difficult because that was you know, was not open bombing at that time, but it was still dangerous. And, but they-they agreed to do it and so off we went into the Panhandle and you know, I came to a city a city like being V-I-N-H at about 100,000 people and it-it really you know, in in pictures of WWII- dressed in the Hamburg-
SM: 38:46
Oh yes.
RD: 38:46
-I mean, you know, kind of collapse buildings, but you know, you still see maybe, a bit of a wall sticking up you know, there was, there was a sense that there was a city there. But in Being, there was no -I mean it was more likely the surface of the Moon, I mean, it was just it was literally just crater, upon crater, upon crater. There was no structures, nothing, nothing was left and yet everywhere you looked it looked like people were just, going on about their life. And-and, and-and nobody I mean, like they missed the war or something. I mean, it was just bizarre. And so, I went into an underground tunnel. I mean, really deep into the Earth, and sat in chair. We, our delegation sat in chairs, and they put on a-a Vietnamese cultural performance for us in the, in the Panhandle. That was basically, I mean it really beautiful man. They were dressed in traditional Vietnamese costumes and everything. And, the songs were essentially about how, you know, Vietnam was I mean, it was just celebrating Vietnam and that peace would come and that they would endure, you know, just an inspiring song for people that are in the midst of, you know, hell on wheels, to-to feel that they would survive. And-and it would appear that, you know, most of them actually really did, but even in the midst of that kind of bombardment. It was truly spectacular-
SM: 40:23
Wow.
RD: 40:23
-was one of them, the [inaudible]. I mean, I was, I mean, even today, I am just amazed that, that actually existed, you know, but it was really impressive to see it.
SM: 40:35
During all these times, after you left Oberlin and the graduate school, and getting involved with SDS and getting in and having all these experiences and going to Vietnam and getting involved with Tom and other major activists, did you ever think I am that chicken farmer kid back in-
RD: 40:57
[laughs]
SM: 40:58
-back in Virginia, and look where I am now? Never expect-. You know, it is like, it is life has amazing directions we all go in. But this is an amazing story when you think about it.
RD: 41:10
Yeah, you know, I-I do not know if I dwelled that way. But I-I was aware of myself, you know. I mean, in though, in high school, my idea of a student movement was the four H club. So, it was quite a transition to go from high school, and this little rural community where I mean, I-I was, I-I was truly a farmer. I mean, you know, I mean, I was the one that did the chores [inaudible], you know. Milk cows and have sheep and-and tended to the animals before go on the hike, before going to classes. And then I would, and school was 12 miles away. And then I would come home and do the chores in the evening. So, I mean, it was a, it was work. And you know, it was a different world. But, yeah, so just an all-American boy, who, you know, turned into a revolution, or I guess.
SM: 42:09
Who were some of the other people that came on that first delegation?
RD: 42:14
Oh, let us see Vivian Rothstein, Carol, shoot. I am going to- yeah, I-I had to look up everybody's name, I would, mess it up. I think, it is actually in the, in my book. I think I list all-
SM: 42:33
Okay.
RD: 42:34
-the people who have read it, if you want to look it up.
SM: 42:36
Was Daniel Berrigan with the group?
RD: 42:39
No, he was not.
SM: 42:41
I know, he went he went on a trip to Vietnam as well.
RD: 42:44
Yeah. Both of those trips, you know, were organized by our, our team of people. Dave Dellinger, Tom was involved, you know, I was involved in, you know, once we made that that first 1967 trip and you know, we became the conduits for, for other delegations, to-to go, including Jane Fonda when she went.
SM: 43:13
Right.
RD: 43:14
Uh, yeah.
SM: 43:17
Were you going on to college campuses and speaking during this time period as well?
RD: 43:23
Yeah. So, yeah, yes, I was, you know, I-I did a fair amount of speaking during the SDA-SDS days. And then, and then in the coalition, I became the coordinator of the anti-war coalition after the Pentagon demonstration in October 1967. And, I actually learned about, you know, so the plan was to go to Chicago. And, I was convinced that we could bring a half million people to Chicago, and I prepared for a half million people, actually learn about the Democratic Party's decision to have their convention in Chicago. So, the Democrats, you know, Lyndon Johnson was the president. He was the one, you know, commanding the-the orchestration of the war in Vietnam. So, the responsibility really, at that stage was with the Democratic Party, and we were in a bomb shelter in Hanoi. And it was, you know, it was, there were not lights in there so it was completely dark and so the Vietnamese were trying to, I do not know I would not say entertain us but you know, have something to do while we waited for the bombing raid to end, and you could hear bombs go off I mean, in the bomb shelter and feel the vibration and the ground. But they, you know, they had flashlights. And so, they had a wire service, AP wire service. And they were just reading the news from the U.S. to basically, I do not know, you know, keep us preoccupied again. And then they read that the Democratic Party had decided to, to go to Chicago. And then everybody got all excited, said "Oh, you are from Chicago-
SM: 45:32
[laughs]
RD: 45:32
-oh, the Democrats are going to yours." And I did not really say anything at that time. But inside myself, I realized that was going to be in Boston at this event. I was from Chicago, and I, you know, and I was the coordinator of the coalition, so here we go. So yeah, so I kind of knew, I was starting to prepare myself in the life where what was going to happen Chicago, and I, I really felt that at that point, there was no opposition to-to Lyndon Johnson. And it does not, you know, this would be for McCarthy or any, any anti-war candidate. So, we just thought that there would be a rank and file walk out of Democrat to join our demonstration in Chicago. And so, I-I, you know, really, that I was preparing for a half million people, then basically the mayor of Chicago, you know, announced that he was not going to grant permits. The, Ramsey Clark was, you know, my, my dad knew Ramsey Clark, who was the attorney general under Lyndon Johnson. And so, he helped facilitate, communication between me and-and, and Ramsey Clark's office, I-I basically want to know if the, if the federal government supported Mayor Daley's position to not grant permits. And they clearly did not, they knew that was, I mean, to have riots in Chicago at their convention was the last thing in the world they wanted. So, they sent out Roy Wilkins, who was really, oh, you know, right hand, man, you know, a very high-level executive in the Justice Department representing Ramsey Clark, to meet with me. And we are both little skeptical about each other, you know, we, but we spent time together and I-I saw that he was a very cool guy, I liked him, actually. And I trusted him. And he, you know, he came to feel the same way about me. You know, he has had interviews since then, about how, you know, he really was won over by who, who I was and what I was trying to do. And so, he went to Mayor Daley on his own to basically make the case that, that he had to grant permits. And just so, soon as he mentioned my name, Daley, just I mean, his whole face turned beet red. [laughs] He went, he was just fuming, you know, he was so, you know, he knew me from before when I was a community organizer, you know, so I, you know, I do not know if I was the representative when it came. But he, you know, he really realized that that is why he shared this with me later that they were, they were just not, you know, Mayor Daley was not going to grab permits, that was just the way it was. Even then we did not know how bad it would be. But yeah, we had a real decision to make whether or not to call it off. Because, you know, go, you know, I knew enough about Chicago to know that, to go and have a demonstration without permits, was-was could be lethal. I mean, you know, people could lose their life. I have you know, I had no idea that it would be, as extreme as it turned out to be but, you know, I realized that, you know, we would have to now prepare for I mean, the-the main organizational focus for me in Chicago was marshals because I wanted the ability to have communication with whoever did come in the streets, at night, you know, and so we needed thousands of marshals with a particular type, of I mean, a really true organization, the ability you know, just to, for me to say something and reach every single person on the street running through the crowds or anything, I wanted to have that ability. And then the other thing was, medics. Including medical doctors as well as health practitioners, who are steeped in steer gas and, bandages and, you know, just I mean in in case anybody got injured. And so, we, I do not know what the numbers were, but probably over a thousand medics-
SM: 50:19
Wow.
RD: 50:19
-and way over a thousand marshals were involved. I mean, to give you an idea when, at the very last minute, that mayor, did grant a permit for Grant Park to basically have the, you know, that permits were granted kind of thing. So, I decided to take it so that people who, you know, adults, so to speak, could safely come, you know, and so, we had, you know, pretty good turnout at Grant Par. This was, yeah, I do not know, you know, we were, you know, it was a daytime thing. And, you know, it was beautiful a day and suddenly, a young person, a teenager, went to the flagpole and lowered the flag to half-mast. For him, it was like showing a sign of international distress. But the police just came in and to make, to arrest him, you know, and they just clubbed people as they came in and, and they rested him and then they pulled back down. And so, I mean, I am trying to give an example of our marshals are, you know, I had a marshal line go up where people locked arms, they face the police away from the crowd, but we formed the human stent around our own group, which were I mean, they were, they were throwing things and screaming and you know, just beside themselves, and, and that marshal line went up, like, boom, boom, boom, yeah, it was, it was like a military precision. [laughs] That-that completely calmed our own group down. I mean, we took total control of that situation. And then I was on a bullhorn, and basically said, you know, we, we have our legal permit, and if you would, you know, kindly pull back, you know, we can continue our rally here. And, and this-this the sight of me on a bullhorn with that kind of, you know, does the superintendent or the assistant superintendent of Police, order the police to charge again, and it was just phenomenal, really, I mean, I had a bodyguard, who was a jujitsu master, who had his leg broken in that assault-
SM: 52:50
Oh my gosh.
RD: 52:50
I was hit on the head. And, you know, I-I, it was, I-I was conscious, and kind of trying to crawl along the ground. But you know, I was just being hit on the back.
SM: 53:03
Wow.
RD: 53:03
And I-I really thought that I was going to - this was going to be it for me, you know, I might not make this, you know, there was a little chain linked fence, in the park that actually seemed to save my life. I-I was able to come to that chain linked fence, and just for two seconds, get under that fence and stand up and get into the crowd. Where I was in, you know, escorted away from the violence. And, you know, into a place, now I passed out and [laughs] came back. And-and so, then then I was taken to the hospital, because I mean, I-I wound up getting 30 stitches. And this is one of the most amazing things ever. I mean, yeah, we were obviously, you know, in the, I mean, that Chicago was just riveted on what was happening. And so, I am, I am sort of, you know, the police were just hysterical about wanting to arrest me, you know, I mean, I have been beaten to a pulp, and, and but I had not been arrested. So that was not good. So, they, they decided that I must be at the hospital. So, they decided to do a room by room search, of every room in the hospital to arrest me. And, I mean, to this day, I still find this amazing. I, there was a group of, of staff, people, nurses and people that worked at the hospital, but they I mean, these were career employees, who you know, would have lost their job and who knows what else to know if they had been, they had me on a little cart and covered me with a sheet and basically just, you know, hid me and moved me away from the police until like, I got to an exit, and then they you know, and then I got up. I mean, I-I had a pressure bandage around me that made me look like, a WWII poster child or something, you know, it is like - but you know, but I got out, I got out of the hospital because of the staff, and, you know, got to a friend's house that night. And you know, then I watched the night of the nomination, was just, you know, very bloody in front of Conrad Hilton.
SM: 55:23
Yes.
RD: 55:23
I watched like everybody else on television.
SM: 55:26
Randy, were there two [crosstalk] were there two events happening, the-the event that you organized, and were the Hippies organizing a separate event?
RD: 55:36
Well, the Hippies were a part of our coalition. So, but they were prominent, because they were sort of outrageous and funny, and, you know, they made fun of Mayor Daley and so forth. And I-I kind of normally would have wanted to keep that a little more tucked in. But, but given the circumstances, you know, especially with Abby [last name], he brought a sense of levity and humor. I mean, he could take a group of reporters in a, you know, crowded into a room, that, you know, were basically I mean, the city was in a state of preparing for siege, and, and everybody was uptight and tense. And, you know, here was, here was as one of the spokesmen for the event. And so, the press are just, you know, pounding him with questions. You know, they were serious [inaudible]. And he could literally just turn the whole audience into outright laughter. And it was just amazing to see it, you know, he would do this again and again, I found that to be, given the circumstances to be really pretty refreshing and helpful. So, Abby, and I actually, we were, we were close together, we, you know, I, in the beginning, I moved our whole operation in the Linkin Park, which is where the hippies were camping out. And, you know, we, you know, he appreciated my organizational ability, because they did not have that, you know, the marshals and the things that we could do. And, and I appreciate it. It is, it is levity, you know, Allen Ginsberg was there, you know, chanting ohms, and anything that calm people down was good to me, you know.
SM: 57:30
How did-how did, you know before the Trump- before the trial started, and all this melee that was going on, how did they pick eight people?
RD: 57:40
Well, it was clearly a decision to-to you know, I mean, some-some of them were logical, obviously, myself, they fell on chair. Tom Hayden, you know, and Abby and Jerry too. But, you know, the-the John Freud's and Lee Weiner were not instrumental in the, in the demonstration. I mean, they were there. But, what they were-were they were university professors who are against the war. And it just felt like it was more of a political trial, to warn, university professors hand off the antiwar movement. Bobby Seale, literally. I mean, what I had invited Eldridge Cleaver to speak in Chicago, and at the last minute, he could not come. And Bobby, you know, so they Alvarez made the decision to invite Bobby to replace them. I did not even know that, you know, so Bobby, just a rocket, you know. So, Bobby came and made two speeches, that is all he did. And then left. So, you know, he had nothing to do with Chicago at all, you know. And, and but, you know, he was the chairman and founder of the Black Panther Party, and so he put him in. So, it was more like, you know, what would work from the government point of view to kind of, say, these are the leaders that we want to really go after, and especially with Bobby Seale. You know, it was, you know, tying in all white people's fear of black people, especially, you know, [chuckles] black people like the Black Panther Party, you know, so I, you know, it just felt like it was more of a political decision than anything else from the Justice Department.
SM: 59:36
There was a point where they, they had to tie him up and became the Chicago seven. Do you remember the day that happened?
RD: 59:46
I do not remember the day. You know, it was pretty far into the trial, although the beginnings of it started right at the beginning. What happened was that, Charles Gary was Bobby Steele's attorney and Charles Gary had a gallbladder crisis and had to go into surgery just before the trial. So, he went before the judge and asked for a continuance. You know, in Chicago, you can get a continuance for a parking ticket, you know, I mean, here though, the-the New York Times has already called, calling the trial before he even starts the most significant political trial in American history. And, and so Gary just, you know, wants a continuance of the trial, so he can have his surgery and come back. So, the judge turns, turns down the defense request, is the judge actually turned out every single motion of the defense over five and a half months trial, now even requests to go for a bathroom break - anything that defense did was denied by the judge. So, so Bobby, basically came in and, you know, did not have a lawyer and decided himself that he would defend himself. And so, and the judge insists that he could not do that, that Bill Kunstler, who is our lawyer, at with Bobby was picked up in California, and-and, and escorted across the country, which took six days of travel. And it was like he was just kidnapped, and no one knew where he was. And so, when he appeared in Cook County Jail, you know, everyone was relieved, but everybody wants to know, he was okay. And so, Bill Cussler was the only lawyer available. So, he-he, he signed in to Bobby to basically go and just to visit him to make sure he was, you know, okay, you know. And so, the judge used that to say that he had a lawyer Bill Kunstler, who was a lawyer record. And Bill Kunstler, you know, indicated the whole story and that he was not his lawyer, and that he only did that for one purpose only, which was to make sure he had not been brutalized on his trip across the country by police. So anyway, that is set up the contest. So, when somebody would mention Bobby's name, as you know, on the on the witness, you know, someone would be-be a witness to in the trial called by the governments and mentioned Bobby's name, Bobby would then stand up to cross examine the witness [laughs], you know. And the judge would just freak out-
SM: 1:02:44
[laughs]
RD: 1:02:44
-and ordered the marshals which were in a line, the whole outer walls of the courtroom, they-they all look like, you know, Chicago, Cleveland, linebackers.
SM: 1:02:56
[laughs]
RD: 1:02:56
I mean, they were pretty big, burly guys. [chuckles] They would come and they would, you know, push Bobby back into his chair, and it just kept escalating and getting stronger and stronger, you know, and-and, and sometimes, you know, rather than, you know, I mean, we-we would get involved sometimes to try to, you know, form a, a ring around Bobby's chairs, because it was it was physical, and the jury was in the room. I mean, they were might be being hustled out, but they would see, you know, Bobby being, you know, manhandled in the trial, you know. So, and this went on and just kept building and getting stronger. And then one day, Bobby was not, did not come out and we were all waiting. And then suddenly, he comes out and he was being carried by four marshals, it who and they he was chained to, he was tied down to a chair, and he has got a pressure bandage around his mouth. And, you-you know, they bring him out, instead of at the, at the, at the conference table on the defense side, you know, in front of the jury, and basically the judges explaining that this is a necessary step to keep him from talking in the courtroom and bobbing you know, then you know, they call out to his, his, his bandage. And you can you know, he is a little garbled, but you can hear it. And so, the-the days go on like this, where basically Bobby, the band aids around Bobby just gets you know, more and more brutal and tighter and tighter. And-and he is, he is, his arms are so tight to his chair that it-it stops the circulation of blood in his arm. And so, you know, the lawyers are pointing him out, they got cruel and unusual punishment and so they-they loosen the thing and then his arm will fly up, as they loosen the strap, you know, then the marshals think he is attacking somebody and they come in and they start beating him. Right. And I mean, the jury is still in the room or leaving the room. I just, it just becomes unbelievable. And so, this, this image there, it is there is an artist's rendition is what it is because there is no photography allowed in the courtroom at that time. And so, there is this picture of Bobby sealed, chained and gagged as a, as an artist's rendition, you know, goes out to Africa, China, you know, all of Asia, Europe, you know, South America, the United States. I mean, it is a symbol of the world. I mean, here is a black man who is chained and gagged, because he cannot, you know, get a lawyer of his choice in an American courtroom-
SM: 1:05:54
Once you-
RD: 1:05:55
-become the icon of the whole trial really, you know.
SM: 1:05:59
What-
RD: 1:06:00
So, it is, it is- yep, go ahead.
SM: 1:06:02
Yeah. What did you think of Judge Hoffman, I, and also the other seven, when they were, allowed to speak? Did he get animated? Did he have his problems with others or? You know, did he have problems with all of you? Did he treat any of you with respect? You know, I just-just, you know, just-just thoughts about that. And how long was the trial and the whole thing? It is historic.
RD: 1:06:28
Yeah. Well, the judge, you know, at-at first, we were a little shocked by the, the prejudice of the judge. You know, later on, we learned that he had a reputation in Chicago with other attorneys as just being really difficult judge, belligerent, you know, he was, he was recommended to be removed from the, from-from you know, playing the role of judge by, by the lawyers in in Chicago in that district. But somehow, he survived and kept on doing it. And now he would, you know, at lunchtime, he would have two or three martinis and he would come back and slur his words and he was just a little bit you know-
SM: 1:07:17
[chuckles]
RD: 1:07:17
-but you know, he-he, he just loathes us I mean, then he was, you know, he would miss pronounce people's names, Dilinger with Dilinger not Gallanger. And, you know, Wineglass, you know, who was an attorney, was wild man as, you know he would just, he would come up with these amazing names for everybody. And so, first, we were, you know, I little, I was a little amazed by it. I had seen it because I, you know, going to, I mean, this is, you know, I am about to bring American prisoners of war home. I mean, this is, the ultimate thing to do for the country. And yeah, he turned that down. Because, you know, he hates us so much. You know, I mean, so I had that early preview. But I quickly and everybody else too, you know, saw that, that the judge was actually our greatest asset in the trial, that he was so extreme and so prejudicial, that he actually, this became a part of the color of the whole thing. And, you know, and his, his last name was Hoffman and so then you have Abbie Hoffman, and so-
SM: 1:08:40
Yes.
RD: 1:08:40
-Abby was the illegitimate son of the judge, you know-
SM: 1:08:44
[laughs]
RD: 1:08:44
-of his story, but you know, I mean, we just made fun of it. And we, I mean, literally, we would sit around the table, and all kind of stamp our feet at the same time, like we had to go pee really, really bad. You know, and then the, and then Bill [last name], our attorney would stand up, and you know, and do this really humorous thing about, you know, nature calls and everything-
SM: 1:09:11
[laughs]
RD: 1:09:11
-and, you know, be very respectful and wonder if it might be possible that we could just take five-minute break now, and, and so the offenders could actually relieve themselves, you know. [laughter] And we would know, doing this that absolutely, it would be turned down.
SM: 1:09:32
[laughs] Oh my goodness.
RD: 1:09:34
That is-you know, we, we would do this just to basically make the point, you know, and so, so Judge Hoffman. I mean, the, this was kind of before reality TV, we became reality TV to especially not only, but certainly for the country, but especially for college students. I mean, I would go on to a college campus because of the time change between Chicago and the East coast, we get out at four, and, what was it? Four or four thirty, I forget, and then, you know, rush to the airport. And, by the time you got to, you know, Boston or New York or something like that, and got in a car and, you know, got to the place, you know, I mean, it was, it was nine o'clock, before you even started. And, you know, as you would, as, as people knew you were in the building, they would start to stamp their feet. And I, just greet [laughs] you know what I mean, a small turnout for me was five thousand people. And when the governor would call out the National Guard, because I was thinking that I would be, you know, that was 50 to 100,000 people, you were in the stadium. I mean, it was just phenomenal. And-and if I, I spoke with Abby, for example, you know, 25,000 people and an auditor, you know- an armory of some kind.
SM: 1:11:09
Wow.
RD: 1:11:12
It was really phenomenal, really. And, what will always amaze me was the, amount of knowledge that pretty much everybody had about the trial. And while my focus was stories of Vietnam, and what was happening in Vietnam, you know, we-we always started by just talking about what happened today, in the trial and it was like, it was just like reality TV, [laughs] everybody just hung on every single development that was going on. And that people would come to the trial. I mean, they would hitchhike across the country, and then, in get in line, like its eight at night, and then, you know, this is in, in the wintertime in Chicago.
SM: 1:12:00
Oh my god.
RD: 1:12:01
So, it was super cold, things, sleeping bags, and warm clothes, and they would camp out in the hope that they might actually be able to get into the trial itself.
SM: 1:12:12
How many could get in?
RD: 1:12:15
Oh, I do not, you know, was not that big? Really? I do not know how to say, I would probably, maybe, I do not know, you know, maybe 60 or 70 people, something like that. Yeah-yeah.
SM: 1:12:32
You know, what was interesting also is, now were you all in prison when this happened? You had to come to you or are were you in, away from the courthouse every day that you came?
RD: 1:12:46
Yeah, no, we were granted bail, which was amazing. Everybody except Bobby. Bobby was not, Bobby, you know, was way pending trial in Connecticut on murder. You know so you have, you have been charged with murder in Connecticut. And he was going to, Bobby did not get bail. Just to not let that hang. What happened was that there was a, a black panther person in, in, in the Connecticut in the New Haven chapter of the Black Panther Party was killed. And they basically, said that Bobby Seale ordered the murder. And so, Bobby was facing murder charges. And so, after the trial, after Bobby was severed from the trial, but you know, he has chained and gagged, and it got so intense that the judge finally just gave up and basically severed him from the trial with the idea that he would be retried again on his own. And so, Bobby then was sent to Connecticut to face murder charges. Now, Gary had finished his operation, and was back being his lawyer. And Gary and his team put together the evidence that actually was a federal government, undercover agent who had infiltrated the Black Panther Party, who had killed a member of the Black Panther Party-
SM: 1:14:27
Wow.
RD: 1:14:28
-and that agent went to jail for murder. That Bobby was free and clear, after all, the whole thing you know, it was really phenomenal piece of legal work, really.
SM: 1:14:41
Randy, could-could you state exactly what the charges were against the right cause the people that will be hearing your voice will not know, they will know about the trial, but the reasons why you were put on trial and what was the reason, the final verdict of the trial?
RD: 1:14:57
Yeah-yeah. So, when Martin Luther King was assassinated, the black community, you know, went up in rage in about 100 cities. And, the Republicans wanted to blame what was going on, on the leaders of the, of the civil rights and the movement in general. And so, they, a, a representative from representative Kramer from Florida, proposed a piece of legislation that made it a crime to use interstate facilities, which meant cross a state line with holding the intention, which was determined by what you said, or what you wrote, to incite a riot. And a riot was defined as assembly of three or more people, one of whom violated or threatened to violate a law. And there was no timeframe. So, in other words, you could come in and make a speech. And then a year later, three people standing on a street corner with clenched fists, you know, could be tied into your speech a year ago, and you could now be facing a felony for having the intention to incite that riot. So I mean, it was just the most egregious legislation probably in the history of America, in, in terms of free speech and civil rights, that you could imagine, on the opening day of our trial, one of the most impressive things was the, the number of extremely conservative constitutional attorneys who showed up on the opening day of the trial in protest of the, of the, of this law. And so, we were charged with violating the statute itself, crossing the state line with the intent to incite a riot. And we were also charged with conspiracy to incite a riot. So that meant that with a two count, we faced a maximum sentence of 10 years. Each one had five years. So, we would [silence] - cut off my thought there. [crosstalk] I would say that we were, that when the jury ended, the jury was basically divided pretty-pretty much along the same lines as the country as a whole, some, some people on the jury thought we were heroes, and some people thought we should be locked up and the key thrown away. So, the jury was deadlocked as a result. And when they said to the judge, they were deadlocked, unable to come to opinion, the jury had been sequestered for five and a half months. So, they had not seen their family. And the judge told them that, the government has spent so much money and so much time in this trial that they really could not deadlock, they have to make a decision. It was one of the items that reversed the decision in the appellate court. But it caused the jurors to believe that if they want to ever see their family, again, they had to come to a, a resolution of some kind. And so, all they knew to do was to compromise. And so, they found us guilty of the subsequent charge and innocent of the conspiracy. And so that meant that we face five years in jail, while the jury deliberated, we were we met with a judge who gave us contempt of court citations. I received an additional two and a half years of contempt of court, almost all of which was generated when I was on the witness stand. [laughs] So the you know, it was pretty hysterical and in the appellate court, most of us were amended, I mean in an appellate court, the, the substantive charge was thrown out. And which meant that the Justice Department could go back and try it again. But they had had enough of it. I mean, they were just beside themselves with, I mean what had happened with- mobilized the whole country. And so, they just decided not to go forward with it, on the, on the contempt of court, Bill Kunstler actually was found in contempt of court and, you know, he had received four years. This is our lawyer [laughter] four years of contempt of court, as the lawyer for the, for this incredible trial. You know he was, one of the most distinguished lawyers in the United States, and you know, he was, he was really, a beautiful lawyer, I would tell you that. So, but you know, technically, you know, he had said some things that were out of order. And so, they, stuck-stuck to what the law says about contempt of court. I was, all of my things were dismissed on the appellate court. So, so what that meant was that Bill had something on his record that, you know, he was cited for contempt of court, but then the judge, basically removed all punishments. He was not, he did not go to jail. He did not have anything else. But it was on his record as having contempt the court. I think he saw it as a badge of honor. You know, you did not really get deterred by it at all. So, nobody really, you know, went to jail from the Chicago. You know, we were first started, the Chicago eight, when Bobby Seale was, was severed from the trial, the media calls and says Chicago seven. That sort of is what stuck historically, the Chicago seven is just the name that media basically gives the defendants were all the Chicago eight, but the country calls us the Chicago seven.
SM: 1:21:12
[laughs] Rennie when you think of that year 1968, and not just, going through that trial, being there and having that experience at the convention. Can you describe the year 1968 in all of its totality? We all know about the deaths of Bobby and Martin Luther King, Jr.
RD: 1:22:08
Yeah.
SM: 1:22:09
And certainly, [crosstalk] and then also, you know, Jean McCarthy kind of disappeared from the scene after Bobby dies. So, just-just your thoughts about, in 1968. And you know, that song that Chicago did, "The Whole World is Watching."
RD: 1:22:24
Right.
SM: 1:22:25
Every time I hear that and see that, you know, it was about the Chicago convention.
Unnamed speaker: 1:22:31
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, it was a, kind of a time like no other, to be honest, maybe the present time that we were going to be seeing, you know, in the very near future here, you know, we will have, you know, will maybe be a return somewhat to the-the enormity of the protests. You know, you had Martin Luther King was assassinated in April of 1968. And, this was the, the convention in Chicago was in August of 1968. So, you can imagine, I mean, the country was just reeling from that assassination. It was just unbelievable, really, I mean it was just, I mean, yeah, you had riots in the black communities and probably other cities. But the, the mood in the country was so, I mean, it was just depressing, really, and overwhelming. It is, it is it is just, it is hard to explain it. I mean, he was just such an icon. And, you know, he was in our coalition, and, and he was a personal friend of mine. I first met him when I was a community organizer in Chicago, and he came to Chicago for an open housing march, and he was speaking at a, at a Baptist church and, in south Chicago and I decided to go and I, I wound up going through the men's room, and I was sitting at the urinal and, and he comes in, Martin Luther King comes in and just goes to the urinal next to me, and-and basically, you know, that is how we met, at the urinal. And it was really, it was really beautiful. I was explaining to him that, that we were, he was bathing and ready to do a march into Cicero, which was this white working class, really bigoted community. And I, told them that I was going to assist in bringing 1000 people from, who had migrated from Kentucky, West Virginia, Alabama, Mississippi, you know [chuckles] white people to his march and he just thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard.
SM: 1:24:58
[laughs]
RD: 1:25:00
I do not think so, you know, and he said, so we-we, we had just a bunch of humor there, at the urinals, you know, I could explain it, you know, I would basically tell him to get ready to have your hair blown back-
SM: 1:25:13
[laughs]
RD: 1:25:13
-you know, his hair was real short. [laughs] Anyway, it was cool. You know, we, we were we were friends and he was in our coalition. He really was. Back at, in Chicago after he had been assassinated, he was the, it is was called the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. They had a project called "The Poor People's Campaign." And on the night of the nomination, which was Wednesday, August 28, 1968. The, he had the poor people's march came down to pass the Conrad Hilton, where many of the delegates were saying, you know, I mean, I am talking about a mule train with-with an asphalt tent and no cards, you know, people riding in the mule train, and, you know, it was, you know, and the and the mules and the people in the car, were-were gassed and clubbed. And, you know, right on, I mean, national television, I mean to give me an idea of more people watched the clubbing of the mule train. And on the night of the nomination of, you know, of Hubert Humphrey, then watch the first man landing on the moon. To give you an idea of the of the television audience that was just riveted to what was going on in Chicago. So then, basically, you know, then the, I guess the good news was that Jean McCarthy, a senator decided to run for president and oppose Lyndon Johnson. And he did not win. The first primary in those days was New Hampshire. He did not win New Hampshire, but he came in around 42 percent of the vote and, that was staggering. I mean, nobody expected that, and he was running strictly as an antiwar candidate. And so suddenly, the, everything changed. I mean, now there was a possibility of a candidate who could win the presidency as an antiwar candidate, and that reality caused Bobby Kennedy decide to enter the race. And so, then Bobby Kennedy suddenly appeared to be like the likely candidate for the Democratic Party. You know, he went to California, you won the California primary. And then that night, when he would had just won the primary, he was assassinated. And so, now you have got two icons in the country, you know, murdered-
SM: 1:26:18
Wow. Right.
RD: 1:27:43
-you know, for their position. I mean, it was just, I, you know, uh, you know, maybe just saying, that is all a person needs to understand. You could really imagine for yourself how incredibly impactful that was on social consciousness and the public in general. I mean, one of the most moving things of Mashable was, was the procession from New York, to, to Washington, D.C. by train to carry-
SM: 1:28:31
Right.
RD: 1:28:32
-Bobby Kennedy's coffin. You know, I mean, people just lined, the entire track, you know, from New York to Washington, with signs and it was very moving, it was really touched the country but it was also extremely depressing. So, this was just the background of everything that was building up to Chicago. In, in that summer, the trial itself began in, September of 1969. And then it went for five and a half months into January, exceed nine or 70. And then, and that basically, the Nixon, who basically kind of won on the idea that he was going to, end the war or, you know, look, you know, reduce the troops in the war, I mean, he basically tried to take an antiwar position himself, you know, one of the first things he did was to basically expand the war by invading Cambodia, and that is just set off. Students across the United States to Chicago seven actually call for a nationwide student strike. You know, I do not know the exact numbers but I would say close to 90 percent of every university and college in the United States closed down there. In response to that strike, and you know, you think about it, I mean, students today, it, you know, think about your whole school going out on strike, you know, a political issue, you know, I mean, some, some of the schools would say, "No, well that could not happen here," you know, but go-go check your own records. [crosstalk] The chances are pretty good that the very university or college that you are in, actually did close down on, in the spring of 1970. It was a phenomenal thing, and then, you know, then you had, you know, songs coming out that went right to number one. On the bestselling list, you know, that were basically explaining what was happening, you know, in Chicago and the students strike. I mean, I mean, the whole culture, just totally galvanized around the student movement and the antiwar movement. It was, it was one of the most impactful things ever to happen. I mean, the idea that there could be an antiwar movement in the United States is, was unheard of, but much less the fact. I mean, here, here is a statistic, that is interesting, Gallup Poll comes out and polls the country as to whether they support the war in Vietnam or not, two weeks before the Chicago demonstration. And a majority of the United States population supports the war in Vietnam, two weeks before Chicago. Two weeks after Chicago, the same Gallup Poll does another poll, and a majority of the country now oppose the war in Vietnam-
SM: 1:30:23
Right. Wow.
RD: 1:31:47
-shifted the entire country, you know, it was really remarkable.
SM: 1:31:51
Rennie, how many more years after, say, 1969, after the tribe, were you involved as an activist? I know, I want you to at least mention your major involvement with a moratorium I believe in 1969. And, going into the (19)70s, but at what point did your activism end? And, and, and also make a comment on when you thought that 1960s ended. But- basically-
RD: 1:32:21
Okay.
SM: 1:32:22
-your, your, your rest of your activism.
RD: 1:32:27
So, I would say, one of the things that we discovered which climate change will, is kind of in this category two, people really do not understand, even on college campuses, the, that the consequences of how humanity lives on the planet, are-are going to be sweeping into our own lives in the very near future. We are going to basically, everybody is going to be affected. And yes, you still have people that want to deny the science, but that is about to change. So, one, one of the things that we I mean, it is the same thing with Vietnam. I mean, we-we knew how horrific the war was. But, we did not understand that. I mean, you know, when there is a war, you support your country and a war. And so, we had the, you know, we had the same issue ourselves, we, how do we, how do we bring people along to understand the facts of the war, you know, so we had something called a teach in. And there were lots of them. And it just went on and on and on. And, you know, having been to Vietnam myself, made me a favorite speaker, because I could tell stories about real people and, you know, weapons that were used, that were perhaps develop by the University, where I am speaking and what these weapons did, how they were conceived, the, their antipersonnel nature and things like that. So, the movement, so to speak, culminated in the moratorium where basically just, you know, it was just activities, but largely around educating ourselves about the issues and the war in Vietnam. And so, by that time, we had really won over most students in, in the country by 1969. Then basically comes to the students' strike, which was pretty breathtaking. I mean, we had American G.I.'s who were our age in Vietnam, deserted their posts in Vietnam. If you tried to organize a military parade, anywhere in the United States. In the spring of 1970, you-you really was virtually impossible to do that, because of the opposition of G.I., not-not antiwar students now, the G.I.'s themselves would block the parades and I mean, threatened mutiny, and that was inside the United States, it was just unheard of that you could get such opposition of the ranks of the military it, itself. So, but what happened was that it was such a blowout of them that, at that is, in the summer of-of 1970, there was just a sense that what more can we do? I mean, there was not a, you know, we-we were very steeped in nonviolence. And there was no, I mean, there was there were some that would say, let us just revolt, you know, but, but that was not the position of the movement or the coalition. So, it was just sort of a letdown. So, in the, in the fall of, of 1970, you could, you know, you call a meeting of SDS or the antiwar movement, and kind of nobody showed up. It just, it just feels the energy just went out, people were depressed, but what more can we do? In the meantime, I was reading reports from French scientists and Vietnamese scientists that there was a genetic mutation that was occurring, that would potentially could, could annihilate the Vietnamese. I mean, it was it was, it was, you know, we-we actually see it today and thousands and thousands of people who are born deformed, or, you know, cannot breathe or, you know, their, their head is misshaped, you know, because of the, of the chemicals that were used in Vietnam. I mean, it was just, you know, and we did not know how severe was going to be. I mean, it turned out to be pretty severe. So, I felt like what we had to do was not calm down, but to actually increase the pressure, and that it was time to move towards large scale nonviolent civil disobedience in Washington. So, I went to the coalition in the fall of 19, I guess 1970 and made the proposition that we should do a mass mobilization with large scale civil disobedience in Washington, D.C., and the concept was that we would actually close the government down nonviolently, you know, if there if the government in the United States does not stop the war in Vietnam, then we will stop the government of the United States. That was that was the message, you know. Well, it was not the coalition had a problem with civil disobedience if done appropriately. But, no one believed it was possible. So it was just, you know, so there was a sense that the movement was over, right, then, you know, going into the (19)70s, you know, the fall of 1970, I would say, the, I mean, even Time magazine came out with a cover story called " The Cooling of America." And it was just the sense that things were over. So, I did not really know, but I did not buy it. And so, I decided on my own to go test the waters. So, I think my first stop was Syracuse University. And, you know, the-the, the organizers that sponsored me to speak there, were, you know, were pretty depressed, really, they-they did not think there would be much of a turnout. But, you know, everybody was still there. And everybody was curious about what was happening. And so, I walked into an auditorium there 5000 people in the room. And so, I-I just laid out the whole picture of what was happening in Vietnam and, and, you know, this genetic damage that was occurring and, and-and you know, ended with the government does not stop the war we will stop the government, you know, and it was, it was really, it was rather remarkable when you could hear a pin drop [inaudible]. At the end, it was just, it was, you know, I do not know, you know, people were just beside themselves, you know, everyone is on fire, you know, standing, cheering, screaming, standing up, [inaudible]. It was, and so right then I knew it was possible to do it. And so, I knew take a little while so I just went on the road and started speaking every day, sometimes twice a day. And, eventually the coalition figured it out what was happening. And they, you know, they, they joined forces, in the end, but I-I had a woman that, you know, donate some money. And I had a neighbor, a neighbor, a neighbor across the street, he was kind of a cop unite. I basically got in office, and they answered phones, and you know, I just kind of did it on my own for a little while, the coalition finally came together and stepped in and brought their capacity to the table. And I just continued to speak on the opening day of our event, there was three main events. This was now the spring of 1971. There were 250,000 people at the Capitol. And hope so we you know, and then basically, over 1000 Vietnam veterans turn their-their badges and their certificates of military service, you know, back to Congress, you know, and-and incredible protests of-of veterans. And then from there-
SM: 1:39:35
Wow.
Unnamed speaker: 1:39:44
Are we good? I have a coaching call. [inaudible]
RD: 1:41:11
Oh, I could go out, hold on, Steven I am going to move my location.
SM: 1:41:33
Okay, thank you.
RD: 1:41:38
Yeah. So, the second part was the Vietnam Veterans part. And then they came the time when everybody who was ready to be arrested, assembled, and I, I set out to speak, and, I mean, [chuckles] oh, my God, it-it really, I really found myself pretty speechless. I mean, there were 100,000 people ready to be arrested. And this was, we call it the May Day, you know, that. It is, you know, turned into the largest arrests in American history, our, you know, our logistics, we were so excited that we could not, no one could sleep. So, we got out of the roads and bridges, you know, I mean, you did not follow protocol. Everybody got out there too early. And, so there were lots of residents moving us out of the city and stuff like that. And, we were criticized because we did not close the government doubt, you know, too much, a little bit. But, you know, it had a huge impact on the country. And, you know, the whole military of the country would mobilize them, the entire east coast. Marines landed, you know, on the Washington ball. There was a Washington Post reporter who felt that this part of history kind of slipped away. And so, you just completed a book on all the, you know, I have not seen the book. So, I do not know how it will be but, you know he seemed like a legitimate recorder. In trying to, what really happened with May Day, you know, it was really pretty spectacular. A lot of historians know that it was really what caused Nixon to kind of give it up and at least go in and sign the Paris Peace Accords, you know, in 1973.
SM: 1:43:38
Right.
RD: 1:43:39
So, so I am trying to answer your question when did the movement stop, you know. It, it sorts of, it sorts of looked like it stopped after the student strike. Then we revised ourselves and came back with May Day, and so it was still going now, though, really over. There was no question about it now. But then at that point, I was, I was watching television and I saw John and Yoko in a, hotel bedroom, you know, declaring themselves to be you know, sit in a bed in for peace or something. You know, as I listened to John talk, I realized that this guy wants to be one of us. You know, I mean, he was really laying it out. And so, so once it was too long before I found myself in his apartment in lower Manhattan, and, as we got acquainted, I decided to make a proposal to him which was, let us tour the country the two of us, I will bring the speakers you bring the musicians, we will go to 42 cities and end up at the Republican convention in San Diego with a million people. And absolutely bring us word when asked. And he said, "I am in, let us do it." Like, beach love to that. There was a laugh. There was a last hurrah. [laughs] You know what happened was we went to Ann Arbor aa=s our first place. We had a venue, I do not know, 20 or 25,000 people indoors. Tickets sold out in 45 minutes, so I thought that was a good sign. We had a guest entertainer that even, even John did not know was coming. His name was Stevie Wonder.
SM: 1:45:51
Wow.
RD: 1:45:51
We had, got he was focused, each-each, each venue was going to focus on a particular issue. And so, the first issue was political prisoners in the United States, as John Sinclair, who was a friend of mine, was in jail, he went to an art party. And somebody, a woman asked him, though, if he had a marijuana joint, so he rolled one, and she wanted another one. And so, he, he gave her two joints to take it out. And it turned out, she was an undercover police agent. And so, the long and short of it was he, he went to jail was in prison for 10 years for two marijuana joints. And so, he became our first focus. So, that we yeah, so I got John on the phone from prison, talking into the arena, to you know, 25,000 screaming people. And it was a very moving story. I mean, you know, he really cared about his wife and his two children. And it was very touching emotional thing. I spoke after John spoke on the phone. And so, I do not know, it was probably a little bit over the top for me, but I, I basically proposed a civil disobedience is dead in Detroit, it was - we closed down the city of Detroit. [laughs] If John was not released from prison in two weeks. [laughter]
SM: 1:47:36
I interviewed, I interviewed John.
RD: 1:47:39
Oh, good. Okay.
SM: 1:47:40
I interviewed him about-
RD: 1:47:41
Anyway. So, you know, so the thing happened is that he-he was with me with that, and he never went back either. It was really rather after having been denied three appeals, the-the threat of what we I mean, we were still in a very formidable however, that was the last straw for the Nixon administration. And so, they basically started deportation proceedings against John Lennon. And, and at that point, John basically just got surrounded by lawyers and, you know, went into a legal fight to stay in the country. So that, that to me was the-the official, kind of culmination of the, you know of the movement right there.
SM: 1:47:46
-continue.
RD: 1:47:51
Now, [crosstalk] did you finish your concerts of the 42 cities? No, I would say we did the first one. And then John was yanked out by the, by the justice. So, we never we never did our tour. I mean we did the first one but that was it.
SM: 1:48:59
You know, it is interesting. You are commenting about the same timeframe. It is some of the people I interviewed, interviewed out on the West Coast, thought that the end of the (19)60s came when people started going to the communes, you know, the whole communal movement and everything-
RD: 1:49:15
Right, yeah.
SM: 1:49:16
-dropping out and, and then, and then the radicalization of the weathermen and how they kind of start doing violence and SDS basically ended. So, a lot of things were happening around that particular timeframe.
RD: 1:49:33
Yeah, you know, I would be I would be inclined to have a little more precision about it. You know, I would say the, the weathermen event really started in after Chicago, more into 1969 but it-it quickly went underground and it-it did not really get-get much traction fortunately, you know, I felt it was a, you know, it was really a, I mean, that would be the quickest way to end a large public movement, to basically to start to move towards violence, you know, you are going to lose just about everybody, you know, with that. So, I do not think the weathermen, you know, there was a deterioration of things, that is for sure. The weathermen was a part of it. I went to the second Nixon inauguration, in (19)72 in Florida, and, you know, things were really kind of over at that point. I mean, we had like 10,000 people turnouts, I decided to do a 42-day water fast, to kind of bring a moral quality to it, you know. And it, it ended in a tear gas battle. It, you know, I do not know, you know, so things were, I think, you know, when I think of a movement, I think the ability to generate large public events where people come together, but you know, after that, you know, so for me, the last, that event was with John Lennon, you know, in Ann Arbor after that, there were certain things that went on, and there was a transition. You know, a lot a lot. I mean, I would put myself in this category, there were people that were, you know, things were winding down. And there was a sense of moving into, you know, communes is one expression, meditation was another, I mean, the Beatles, quite some time ago, went off to learn a meditation in India, transcendental meditation. When the Paris Peace Accords, were signed in 1973, I, I was invited by Madame Bing to be a part of that ceremony. And so, I decided to go and so I flew to Paris, and on the plane was a former roommate of mine who was married into the Eli Lilly family, so he had funds. And he was on his way to India. So, he offered to basically, you know, pay my way, and-and why do not we go and explain what he was going to do. He was going to go see spiritual snafus. And that I know, it sounded good to me, you know [chuckles] I thought the war was [inaudible] I did not know what, that is what I thought at the time. So, you know, and then I wound up, you know, learning a meditation there, that where I had, you know, kind of a powerful internal experience, which was completely unexpected. And so, spent some time you know, in in that world, and, you know, meditation, communes, were moving into nature and, you know, learning a lot, a lot of issues about sustainability. You know, farming and that sort of thing. And, I mean, there was, there was definitely a trend, a very slow boat back to society, that that culminated in quiet time, meditation for some people, communes for quite a few people. You know, it was all a transition back to society in a way, you know. [chuckles] So however you want to look at it, I, you know, the movement with the ability to generate large public events, I think, ended in Ann Arbor, but there was certainly a long transition, you know, back to so called society that went on for a couple of years really after that.
SM: 1:54:10
What, what did you become linked to a religious leader at one time? I think you did, did not you?
RD: 1:54:16
Well, that was, that was what happened to me, I mean it was a little bizarre, really, I did not see myself as having any interest in a guru. But there was this teacher in India that we visited, and we went to several ashrams and the one that I visited, there were all these people that knew me, who were doing this meditation, it was total, the, the, the argument was, you should try it and then and then decide, you know, you get your own evidence [inaudible], ad so, so I decided, okay, well, I will try it, you know, the one of the, one of the techniques was to create light in yourself, in your body and your, you know, you see it kind of in your skull. But for me, it was like my, you know, it was it was not like I am the only one pascal talked about this experience. Walt Whitman had this experience, or you know, there you see it in history, there is a, there is a place where, you know, a light goes on inside yourself, and it is hard to defend it or say what it is, but it is very altering. I mean it, it gets your attention, that is for sure. And so that is, that happened to me. And so, I kind of bought into a bit of a religion, I would say, for a short period of time, you know, I-I felt drawn to continue the meditation. And the teacher wanted to do an event at the, at the astro- Astrodome in Houston. And so, he asked me to organize that event. [chuckles] And so, the lobby that gave me some letters associated with their whole room, you know. We filled the Astrodome though with it. And, and I spoke at that event myself, before. But I do not know, it did not, it did not last that long. You know, I mean, I kind of, you know, I am, I am still an internal person today, and I-I have a lot of, you know, my own understandings about it, but I-I would not, you know, I would not be a teacher myself or follow a teacher, you know, I mean, it just, it was, it was a different world for me. So, but there was a period that shows up in my resume now. [laughs] [crosstalk] For a while, you know.
SM: 1:57:04
Yeah, were you? Were you - where did you get a lot of criticism, this really a national activist leader, going kind of dropping out, so to speak? Did you get criticism?
RD: 1:57:07
I-I Yeah, I-I did. You know, it was difficult. I mean, like, right now, people who are critical then, that they all are, they all have no problem at all with meditation, yoga, you know, I mean, it is, it is sort of but, but I was so associated with the political side of, of making change, you know, through a movement that, I mean, even Tom Hayden, who is my dearest friend, you know, just, I mean, he was just so perplexed.
SM: 1:57:56
Yes.
RD: 1:57:56
It was a little bit like Eldridge Cleaver, I mean you know, it was like a key person of Black Panther Party, suddenly, suddenly became a Christian. It was like, what, it just, it just shocked people to the core, you know, like, "How can this be," you know.
SM: 1:58:08
[laughs] [laughs]
RD: 1:58:16
I am not saying that, you know, I was a Christian. I was not but, you know, I guess there was a parallel there, you know, you know, to step from politics and a movement leader into anything has to do with quiet, spiritual reflection, you know, like, "What are you talking about?" You know, but, essentially, it was a quiet revolution at the end of the (19)60s. And if you look today, the number of there are many, many, I mean, many people, it has gone pretty mainstream. Really, I mean, just, you know, the self-help. You know, be, be here now, you know. Quantum thinking, you know, let us not be so brain shatter and let, it knowingness, come in, you know things like that, you know, it is not so unconventional. I mean, the (19)60s really led to supporting that kind of thinking, and-and it is a broad-based thing, it is a little more quiet, but it is still a broad based thing that actually does exist today.
SM: 1:58:59
Right. You know what is interesting. I had a poster hanging on my wall. I was at Ohio State. It was a Peter Max poster, it was kind of like the artist of the (19)60s. And I will never forget the slogan. The slogan was, "If you, you do your thing and I will do mine if by chance we get should come together that will be beautiful," [laughs]
RD: 1:59:45
Right. [chuckles]
SM: 1:59:49
And I, now I regret saying goodbye to that poster many years back. If you had anything to do over again, Rennie, what would you change if anything?
RD: 2:00:03
Change, I do not know that I would say, really all that much. I do not really have a lot of, I mean, even, even though as the grim arise thing, with the meditation. I mean, it is, it is certainly not who I am today. And, and there is, there is things that I did in the (19)60s that I am not today, but that for me, personally, I feel like everything, led me to today. And I like where I am today, I really am, you know, I feel there is, there is a profoundness in the world that that has to do with my own awareness of myself. And I am, I am not, I am happy with my understanding, even though I am still so immature and early stage in terms of where it can go. But I am, I am learning to quiet the brain and access the mind. And I think that is actually going to be the great transition for the future of humanity, the mind is not the same as the brain. Contrary to popular opinion, I mean, the brain is located in the skull, but there is an electrical field that comes off of the skin organ, that is where the mind is located. And being, learning how to access the mind, gives you a, a tool that is just pretty breathtaking. Really, I mean, you can you get to see every single component in an issue, that does it takes everything into account in the way of the brain cannot begin to imagine. And, and it is, it is just, it is just a different way of being. And so, the (19)60s into kind of this transition, the what I call the, "Quiet Revolution" like communes, the meditations, that is whatever, you know, as for me, kind of brought me you know, into being in the world, being practical about things. I mean, I had a successful business career, I then, I, I visited the Grand Canyon, in in the middle of the 1990s. For a little five-day tour, I fell in love with the canyon, and I wound up basically living in the bottom of the Grand Canyon for close to four years.
SM: 2:02:43
Wow.
RD: 2:02:44
I would come out to get supplies and things like that. But, you know, I-I learned I do not know if you have ever tried to do this, but it is, you know, if you if you basically are quiet, and do not talk to anybody, you are just by yourself in nature for say 12 days. For real, you know, it is a pretty life changing event-
SM: 2:03:10
Wow.
RD: 2:03:10
-to do something like that, over years, you know, months at a time without talking to anybody you know, in nature is, though, it really changes a lot, you know, so I have had that experience too. And it is, it is, it is probably the richest thing I have ever done really, you know, it has given me abilities that are, you know, I-I have discovered I have 14 senses not five. I have sonar, I have radar, I have, you know, telepathic abilities, you know, every human being has it, but it is just not something we have, we have developed. And so, so, you know, right now I feel more alive and more. I do not know, you know, I just feel I feel good where I am. And I feel like everything I have ever done has brought me to this moment. So, I, I do not really feel critical of anything in my life.
SM: 2:04:13
You are evolving. You are always evolving and, your business career. Just a few words. What was that business career all about?
RD: 2:04:22
Well, we it was a, service series of good fortunes, really, we, you know, we did not I mean, my dad was an economist, and I, you know, I studied economics and I had some sense of finance, I guess, you know, so we just, you know, I would partner up with a person who and we had a team of people and we were, we were pretty confident, we learned fast. And we were able to start as consultants and to [inaudible] why we are a little miniature Booz Allen, meaning a full service, management consulting company, we-we kind of just put up our, our single was we, we will do anything. And then we would spend, stay up all night and learn a subject when we, if got us, got into science, so it was kind of like that. I headed up a financial planning component in the company. We also had the Human Resources executive search, you know, we had Mobil Oil, and we were the finest executive search term i their corporate experience. And I was the financial planner for the board of directors of Gates Rubber Company, the president of Manville Corporation, president of HBO, you know, People and the Forbes 400 Riches. You know, I had quite a prestigious clientele, we wound up acquiring 80 acres stayed in Evergreen, that, you know, the main home with golden stone on a cliff. You know, we had our own helicopter, you know- -we were successful, you know, in business. And, then then basically, we had a, we were trying to form a national securities company, and take technologies that we were acquiring through inventors, and take them into a public company. And, the- are-are investor, was basically was closing a deal with Texaco, which was triple A rated, and no one knew that Texaco was about to go chapter 11. Because of a loss, with Pennzoil, so it kind of came out of nowhere, and suddenly, we lost our investor, and we had borrowed money on the estate, to make an initial move, you know, and so we were, we were thrown into chapter 11, for three years. And, you know we, we organize 2 public companies, while a chapter 11 kind of dug herself out, got people whole, pretty much. And, and then basically, I, it was then that I decided to take some time out and go to the Grand Canyon. So, then I just dropped out. I mean, I did not, I really left this [inaudible] went into a quiet space. So, I do not know what to say the business was a rich experience. But I mean, I learned a lot about business. We were so called successful for 10 years. [laughs]
SM: 2:06:09
Wow. Wow that is good.
RD: 2:07:48
Another, another life experience that [inaudible].
SM: 2:07:51
Yeah, I know. It leads into a question, what are the, what are your greatest accomplishments in life? What are you most proud of?
RD: 2:08:01
Well, I am certainly, pleased with what I did in the (19)60s. You know, I-I do not see myself as drawn to being a public personality, or, you know, that, that part of it just, you know, helped me do what I wanted to do, you know, what I wanted to do, honestly, was, was to make the world a better place, and civil rights was the first leg of that and, and ending the war in Vietnam was, was the second. And so, it was, it was gratifying to see an entire generation mobilize around, you know, a principal position, you know, and really, actually make a difference. I mean, there was lots of ways to criticize what happened and how we fell short and whatever. But, you know, to be in the middle of something like that it was a phenomenon really, one of the rarest moments in, in American history. I mean, movements have happened before. And, but they were rare. And but when-
SM: 2:09:12
Wow.
RD: 2:09:12
-they happen they are, I mean the Renaissance change, the feudal order, and the (19)60s, really had a big impact on things. So, you know, I was, I am pleased to be, to have been a part, part of that. I would say now I am, I am curious about how the human race can survive and have a future at all. I think that climate change issue is far more severe than, than people that are in climate change really understand. It, I am, I am all for human beings rising to the occasion and try to change the outcome but you know I, I have such an understanding of it that, I do not really I do not really think that is what is going to happen, I do not think we are going to change the outcome, I think we are going to basically go through a chase, like, just unimaginable, what is about to happen. Whether it be any human being at all on the planet, will would be a more, you know, a clear question, I think.
SM: 2:09:55
I agree.
RD: 2:10:01
And I think it is possible with evolution. And, and that is, that is what I am interested in. It is not, it is not easy, you know, to change your awareness. I do not know, if you have ever tried to change anything in yourself. It is very formidable to do it. But you know, what I have been doing is creating, a more simple way to take a, a body of understanding new to the world and make it available to people who want to do it. You know, I mean, take something like check egos, we could all say, "Yeah, let us, let us check egos in the human race." But the fact is, that there is not a psychologist, or a psychiatrist, or a scientist, or anybody that I am aware of, that can even tell you what an ego is, or how many we have, or where they are located, or how to find them because they hide, or how to edit in ego, I mean, actually do it, you know. And so, what I have been able to do is to, answer that question in detail. And then create a system, where a group of people where a person could do it, and, and have tools for how to do it. So, we have a little system where basically you, you pick a card for the day. And there is a one page write up on that card, and then you take the understanding on the write up into your day. And it is, and there is lots of practices that go with it, all of which are new to the world, and no one has ever heard of any of them. And we, we work with small groups of people. And we just watch people change right before our eyes. I mean, it is certainly not overnight. It is really, people are doing it. And so, I feel like, at the end of the day, that will probably be my own legacy, not what I did in the (19)60s at all. But actually, how could the human race have its future by changing itself?
SM: 2:12:37
That is excellent, because that leads right into the next question, which is, if down the road long after you and I, and all of our peers are long gone. What would you hope people would say about you, Rennie?
RD: 2:12:52
Yeah, well, I do not really have any personal identity that I need to be remembered I am, I am not really quite there. But, I would love to see the human race, step into a deeper understanding of how the world works. So, I would say that here is what humanity thinks. It works right now, the world outside myself is real, it is solid. And it is certainly independent of myself. I mean, everybody knows bad things happen for no reason at all. And if one thing does not get me something else will. And-and, and so there is that that is kind of how we see the world. The way I see the world, which I am confident is actually the physics of our reality, not a philosophy or anything, you know, a belief system, but actually, the way it works is a world as a hall of mirrors, reflecting back to each person their own thoughts and perceptions. And that no one is doing anything to you. No one has ever done anything to you, everything that you are experiencing, including poor me, victim, you know, martyr, everything that is going down has its origin and about 50,000 thoughts across your own brain every 24 hours. And so, the, the, the world is a reflection of how you see yourself. So, learning how to, how the world actually works, and the need to point the finger and blame anybody for your own conditions. You can take create your own reality within the larger reality. You can walk out of the prison of the entire human condition. You, you could take back your life with a note how, but it is not a note how that is found in any tradition or any New Age practice or any religion or anything that presently exists, something completely new to human understanding is required to change your, to fundamentally evolve. But it is, it is still part of our-our makeup. I mean, it is what I am talking about is actually found in our genetics, though the uncovering of the genetics is one of the great, great discoveries of all time, they, you know, we want we want to know, I mean, did the price story really happen as described in the Bible or Mohammed story, or the Buddhist story, or all these perfect masters or, or any story, you know it does not have to be religion, anything at all, every single claim that is ever happened is recorded in our own genetics down to the tiniest detail, and learning, to understand the great treasure trove inside ourselves is, is just is the ultimate liberation for the human race. If you know, it, just it is a complete, you know, I call it a new [inaudible], but it is a, this transformed everything to do this. And so, what I am hoping to do is to leave a legacy of how to do this. You know, before I go.
SM: 2:16:27
Well, that is beautifully said Rennie, and I remember I had a conversation with Tom Hayden, when he came to Westchester University several years ago. And he met with students, he met with student leaders, and Tom asked them, "Do you really have power in your student leadership positions," and they said, "Oh, yes, we do. We control the budgets, we control how much each organization gets, we get pointed on certain committees." And I saw, and I looked over at Tom and Tom was eyes were rolling.
RD: 2:16:58
[laughs]
SM: 2:17:01
That is not power. And when he did not, he did not any finally, and these were the leaders of student government. And he said, "I am not talking about power. I am talking about empowerment, have you ever heard of it?" [laughs] And he went into a long oration about the fact that the students of the (19)60s, the people like you and others who got involved in activities to make this world better for others, were empowered to do it. And, your thoughts on the difference between power and empowerment? Because Tom knew exactly what they were and those students that he tried to communicate with did not.
RD: 2:17:44
Yeah, no, I am, I am with that I really am, I would say that. You know, in my language, I would say awareness is when I am interested in you know, evolution to me is a, is a, is a transition to various stages, the first stage is to wake up, human beings came from a material that had no awareness at all, and we have woken up, we, we are awake. And after we wake up, we then go into aware, and then after aware, we can become conscious after conscious intelligence. And after intelligence, supreme intelligence, so you could call that whole thing empowerment if you would like. Human beings on average, everywhere in the world, I would put it about 5 to 6 percent awake right now. So, the bullet I am working with are, are beginning to get up around 75 percent awake, and that gives them a window into aware, I mean an unaware person, you know, if some, if you were aware, and somebody kicked, just walked by you and they had a certain outward demeanor, you-you would know inside yourself, all of those internal belief systems of that person that has created their external behavior. I mean it is just a participant nominal, you know, you would have not 5 senses, but 14 senses would be activated, including sonar in the hair follicles of the ear, radar in the forehead. There is a sensory perception in your hair, there is airborne, hormones that come up with a skin that connect with other people all the way around the world. If you want anywhere you put your direction, massive data can flow back and forth between those circuits. This, this is the future of humanity. This is where we are going, if we survive, you know, so anyway, you know, I am more interested in creating a system that could help people stepped into a completely new world of understanding where they no matter even if they are surrounded by fear and a stereo. They are, they are still in their beauty they, they can create their own reality unaffected by the stereo of the world.
SM: 2:20:46
I only got a few more questions. And then we done I just have a question here, just a general one. But in your definition, what is a leader?
RD: 2:20:53
[chuckles] Well, in my definition, a leader is someone who could listen, leader is, is someone who walks or talk. A leader is not someone who berates, who, who creates fear, who basically, you know, is-is self-absorbed, in-in their own egos. I mean, that is sort of how leaders are defined today, for the most part, but-but leadership might not ever even be seen, you know, it just I know, people who are leaders who-who are completely unknown, but when they walk into a room, they just exude a beauty. And, and their-their, the way they respect. And-and, and the way they, what they, what they send off of themselves, feels nourishing to anybody around them. And so, so my, my view of leadership is this, so much in the current base of condition, but more in a future state that I call the new humanity. There is a, another stage of awareness, where leadership, which is inspiration, the ability to listen, you know, so the leader would basically go where they are invited not where they feel like, you know, this person is not doing it right and I need to fix them, you know. The leader understands that the only law in this reality is the law of free will. Everyone has the right to choose their own journey to evolve or not, there is no right or wrong. And so, a leader really has moved from the stage of judgment, "I am right, you are wrong," to the stage of unconditional respect.
SM: 2:23:07
It is wonderful, Rennie, that is beautiful. I think I am, I am going to challenge you on one thing you said and that is, that-that you do not care if the world knows about you years from now? Well, I do. And that is- -what the that is what these interviews are about. And I am making sure that this university that I am getting bound in here protects these interviews and gives them the respect they deserve. Because the people that I picked to be interviewed, are very important to me. And they are very important, I think, to future generations. And so, at the point, the point of doing this, that is, you should have, and I am going to my last question is going to be this. And it just kind of maybe a convoluted a roundabout way, but the Age of Aquarius, which we all know, that fifth-dimension song, the fifth-dimension song, with so much hope, so much possibility that the spirit of those times ends in failure. And if so, why? We still have war, we still have hate, we still see massive divisions between our races and different political groups ongoing historic hatred between countries and people. War is never ending. It is just history repeating itself over and over and over again. And why, for one brief moment, the 1960s and (19)70s there was a chance to correct this course, but like all times did we fail? Your response.
RD: 2:23:24
[laughs] Yeah, no, I do not think there was a failure. I think I am a bit metaphysical on movements. You know, there is I-I have a view of people existing before they are born, and you a, a group of people coming into the world, to pick on a certain mission at a particular time, I view the Renaissance, as, you know, the feudal order was pretty brutal time. And, and then the Renaissance appeared, out seemingly out of nowhere. And it rewrote, you know, the possibilities for, you know, 1000 years. I mean, it really had a big impact the human race, the American Revolution was similar. People came in to do that experiment. And, yeah, it was, it failed and went off in many areas, and so forth. But the fact is, is that it-it did create something for a while. And the (19)60s certainly in my view, falls into that category too; a group of people came in with-with a mission. Now we are in the present time and I see the same thing occurring. The half the world's population today is 25 years of age or younger. And so, there is there, there are a group of people that, right now that are going to rise to the occasion apply to climate change. And, and the other interrelated issues that are threatening life on the Earth, they actually can see the condition that they are in, they-they know that our oceans are dying, or rainforests are in peril, humanity has exceeded its global limit on the planet, they were not in the delusion that, that this can just go on and on and on, there is no end to it, it never stops. You know, that is just not where it is, is Arnold Toynbee has talked about this extensively, you know, how he studied civilizations that collapse, and every single one of them believes everything is fine, right to the end. It is always that way, but there is always a group of people see it coming, and typically become the seeds for the next generation. Now, whether when this can happen, or how, you know, I understand how it could happen, but when I do not know, what actually we it needs to occur, is to go from 5 percent awake to fully awake. I know, that is not easy to explain what I mean by that, but it is a, you know, we need to change our awareness, and is not done by basically how we vote, or, or, or, you know, getting other people to change, most movements that out, they want to change that. So, the movement that will ultimately succeed, is the movement that wants to change yourself, you know, get over trying to change that, let them be, let them be them. But what we need is an example, in the world of a new stage of awareness, And it is not, it is not just, it is not just simple words, like, "Let us be in respect," you know, "Let us be civil," all of that is fine, but an awareness of how the world works, and how actually, you could make decisions with a mind instead of the brain. And I mean, there is so, you know, under real, discovering the human body, what is it is capabilities are, it is the most advanced thing in creation, you know, I mean, we-we have, we have talents and abilities that we have no idea what they are. And so, a new stage of awareness is the only way that the human race is going to get off of this broken cycle. You know, let us, let us do war. Let us do peace. Let us do war. Let us do, you know, just on and on, endless conflicts, the endless suffering. I am a victim here, you know, it is just, it, it will never stop until we change your awareness. And awareness will never happen until a group of people create a pathway into a new stage of awareness that others can follow. So, that to me is going to be the big step, a group of human beings who become a new humanity and really do it themselves. And-and basically, if you could create abundance and joy, a life of respect, and magic where everything flowed, and life was not stressful, hurtful, life was not like a series of whatever will go wrong always goes wrong when you know, it is just, you know you get control of your thoughts is what it is. And that is really quiet I mean, it is, it is hard to even imagine that I mean, become aware of yourself, not aware of everybody else around you, is a, is a, just so radical thing you know. So, a group of people like a pioneer that avenue that direction, for me is going to be the hope of the human race.
SM: 2:30:34
Very well said. And I will close with this. Is there any question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask?
RD: 2:30:41
No, you are completely exhausted. And I think you have asked every possible question imaginable. [laughter]
SM: 2:30:49
Well Rennie, we will be in touch for sure. And now again, thank you very much. Before we hang up, I am going to turn the tape off here. Thank you very much and, thanks.
(End of Interview)
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rennie Davis 2
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fede0a88fbae261fdd4402e4e3643685.jpg
761a510afdf948368c0a38011b7c953c
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/68a3a8de9ed01c96e2bd008fba6e124e.mp3
bb7b1e5546e1164880a47ec97f4cd3fa
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s and 2010s. The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan continues to interview legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. The media player simply features a play/pause button and displays metadata item title/collection as the track/album title.
Date of Interview
11 August 2011
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Pat Reuss
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:50:29
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Communities; University of California; University life; 1960s; 1970s; Ronald Reagan; Women rights; Generations; Society; Baby boomers; Protests; Civil Rights.
Biographical Text
Pat Reuss is a longtime feminist with many leadership roles, both nationally and locally including the National Organization of Women. She is currently Acting Vice President for the Virginia NOW State Officers. Among the leadership positions, she has served: NOW Senior Policy Analyst-2002-present; Head of the Legal Defense and Education Fund-NOW; Legislative Director for the Women's Equity League NOW-1986-1990; Former Washington, DC NOW Office Director; President, Women's Equity Action League-1979-1980. Reuss played a major role as organizer of the National Task Force To End Sexual and Domestic Violence which was instrumental in passing the 1994 Violence Against Women Act.
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pat Reuss
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8970244ceff5c67af8982e4508e9de32.jpg
a567404766718819f4ae581e25790925
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bf7aa9efca47d690bb47e9e02aa70609.mp3
f8f5b07883c9226c6090a7d6a4af0ab9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s and 2010s. The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan continues to interview legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. The media player simply features a play/pause button and displays metadata item title/collection as the track/album title.
Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
James Humes
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:49:12
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
James Humes (1934 - 2020) was an author, lawyer, profesor, politician, and former presidential speechwriter. Humes earned his Bachelor's degree from Williams College and his Law degree from George Washington University. He was elected as a Republican to the Pennsylvania House of Representatives in 1962 and served as a speechwriter for Presidents Dwight Eisenhower, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan. Humes, a professor of Language and Leadership at the University of Southern Colorado, was the author of numerous books, including Nixon's Ten Commandments of Leadership and Negotiation, Confessions of a White House Ghostwriter, and The Wit and Wisdom of Winston Churchill.
Keywords
1960s; Anti-war protest; Richard Nixon; Class of people; War; Student protests; Vietnam; Vietnam War; Media; Protests; Generational gap; Baby Boomers.
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
James Humes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c986bbc9f8507f01010a9be28783a4a6.jpg
0dcb95c11dd293433541cb77e5d38fe1
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0aeef811ca40176640522667e5a2e6ae.mp3
368b9cd38b6e74e6ff50bbd9cd7b54dd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s and 2010s. The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan continues to interview legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from a metadata field.
Date of Interview
2010-01-07
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Wayne J. (Wayne Jacob) Thorburn, 1944-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Wayne Thorburn is a politician, educator and author. He served as the executive director of the Republican Party of Texas from 1977-1983. He is the author of A Generation Awakes: Young Americans for Freedom and the Creation of the Conservative Movement. Dr. Thorburn is a graduate of Tufts University and Penn State and holds a Ph.D. in political science from the University of Maryland. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,5855577],"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Wayne Thorburn is a politician, educator, and author. He served as the executive director of the Republican Party of Texas from 1977-1983. He is the author of <em>A Generation Awakes: Young Americans for Freedom and the Creation of the Conservative Movement</em>. Dr. Thorburn is a graduate of Tufts University and Penn State and holds a Ph.D. in political science from the University of Maryland. </span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ethnic church; Religion; Economy; WWII; Great powers; Soviet Union; Free speech movement; Corporate control; Environmental movement; Vietnam War; Student protest; Welfare state; Baby boom generation; Sexual revolution; Consumption society; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Discrimination; Black Panthers; Black Power."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Ethnic church; Religion; Economy; WWII; Great powers; Soviet Union; Free speech movement; Corporate control; Environmental movement; Vietnam War; Student protest; Welfare state; Baby boom generation; Sexual revolution; Consumption society; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Discrimination; Black Panthers; Black Power.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
220:20
Subject LCSH
Politicians—United States; Educators; Authors; Republican Party (U.S. : 1854- )--Texas; Thorburn, Wayne J. (Wayne Jacob), 1944--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Wayne Thorborn
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 7 January 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:02):
Testing one, two.
VT (00:00:07):
And others of the left of that period of time, which I rightly so have made it into college libraries and public libraries. But as you indicated, there is only two that were kind of, one of which was a professor from Pennsylvania, John Andrew, who now passed away, who was at Franklin and Marshall wrote the Other Side of the (19)60s, which really pretty much ends with the Goldwater election. He does not really go into much beyond that. The other book, Cadres For Conservatism, is a little more extensive in the period it covers, but it basically says, well, the organization died in (19)85.
SM (00:00:53):
Oh, wow.
WT (00:00:55):
Rightly so. It was not strong from that point on, and in fact, I kind of say by the (19)90s, the mid (19)90s, it went into at least hibernation. It did not maybe die, but it went into hibernation.
SM (00:01:11):
Right.
WT (00:01:11):
But anyway, those who were active in the somewhat revival of the organization in the late (19)80s and in the very early (19)90s, they were just all upset and wrote scathing reviews on Amazon and everything else. How could he say this, the organization died in (19)85? And it is true. I mean, he was wrong, and so that have marred his history of the organization, which I thought was otherwise pretty good. And so, the bottom line was I felt there had to be something else that maybe libraries would purchase that would be on the shelf 10, 15 years from now when somebody's doing a study or research on what happened in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, if they would not only have the Tom Hayden and Richard Flax and the Kirkpatrick sales version, but they'd have a counter saying, "Well, wait a minute. There was another group of young people doing other things at that point in time." It stands to reason.
SM (00:02:12):
Yeah. I read the book. What I normally do is when I read a book, I read it through once and then I start reading it through where I start underlining it and all the other things. So, I really need to get a second book because that is what happens when I get involved in books and I am in the process now of I have read it, but I am reading so many books from my book project that-
WT (00:02:36):
Sure.
SM (00:02:37):
This is a good one, and it is well written, so I am ready to go if you are?
WT (00:02:44):
I am.
SM (00:02:44):
Okay. One of the things I have done is, it is actually the first 50 people I interviewed, which when I started this project back in the late (19)90s, I did not ask too much about their personal background, but the last 150 I have, and so I think it is important. How did you become who you are, that strong, conservative leader who grew up in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s?
WT (00:03:09):
Well, that is a good question. I think I came from a lower middle class working class family that was very traditional and conservative, not in the political ideological sense, but in the norms, values set. My father was an electrician. Much of his life, worked for other people, but then, well, the last 30 years or so worked for himself. So, I would not even call him a small businessman because he was himself, he never had any helpers or anything. My mother, after working very briefly, well before I was born, was a stay-at-home mother. And I grew up, I have one brother who is really a totally different segment. He is 15 years older than I am, and so it is almost like being two only children because by the time I was in the elementary school, he was off college and all that stuff. So, I grew up in a place called Somerville, Massachusetts, which is very much of a working class, inner suburb of Boston right between Cambridge and Medford, if you are familiar with it at all.
SM (00:04:36):
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
WT (00:04:39):
And so they were Baptist. Because I sometimes, and I am probably going to go on too long, so cut me off if I go on too long.
SM (00:04:50):
Okay, that is fine.
WT (00:04:52):
I grew up in what I now refer to as an ethnic church because in that area they were Irish, Italians and transplanted Canadians. Basically, the old wasps from colonial days were living in much more wealthy communities, so where were the wasps were basically transplanted Canadians and the church I grew up in, I would say 90 percent of the people there had relatives still living in Canada. And they, because of being Protestants, they were Republicans. And I think that is the motivation in the days that you are talking about, particularly the (19)50s and post-World War II. If you were Catholic, odds were very-very strong that you were going to be a Democrat, and if you were Protestant, odds were very-very strong that you were going to be a Republican. And ideology meant very little because you had very liberal Republicans and conservative Republicans, liberal Democrats, and conservative Democrats. There was ethnicity and class and other factors were what chose your party. So, I started in that environment and I think the first thing that really hit me was picking up while in High School, Barry Goldwater's, Conscience of a Conservative.
SM (00:06:18):
Yes.
WT (00:06:19):
And then after that, starting to get introduced to Buckley and Up from Liberalism. I think his first book, God and Man at Yale, was really before my time and really did not make an impact on me. It was the second, well, not his second, but his late 1959 book, Up From Liberalism. And so, I started reading those in high school, and I guess it was the values from my family that started me in that direction.
SM (00:06:54):
Did you read his book too, which was another classic on McCarthyism?
WT (00:06:59):
Not really. I mean, I obviously have since, but it did not make an impact on me.
SM (00:07:03):
Yeah, that is a classic.
WT (00:07:05):
McCarthy was an unknown person to me in those early days. I am sure some of the people you interviewed, oh, their parents were real backers of Joe McCarthy and all? No, it was not that. We seldom really at any depth discussed politics at home.
SM (00:07:22):
What was it like going to high school in the (19)50s or the late (19)50s, early (19)60s?
WT (00:07:28):
It was the late (19)50s and I graduated from high school in (19)61, so I think I am pretty well overworked, in kind of meaningless work, but traditional. At the high school, again, because of where I grew up, was very much a working class. A very, very small number, small percentage, of the graduates would go on to college. Some might go to a technical school or a secretarial school as they used to have them in those days, but most of them were high school graduates who then went on to work in clerical positions or truck drivers or working for the city or something like that. So, I worked part-time, and as most kids did in those times, I was able to purchase for $125 an old (19)54 Ford in until my senior year I had this broken-down car that I would drive to school. And there was not any one teacher who had an overriding influence on me. I was involved in the debate club, but we really never really got into very many debates and church activities and things like that.
SM (00:09:02):
When you drove that car, did you look like James Dean?
WT (00:09:06):
No, I was not quite the rebel.
SM (00:09:09):
Yeah. I often am interested in terms of one's college years. Could you talk about how you picked the college you went to? What was it like to be a college student during those years, and was there any activism at the college in those late (19)50s, early (19)60s?
WT (00:09:30):
Okay. Yeah. Basically I ended up applying to two colleges and one was Wake Forest. I really cannot tell you why. I never went to North Carolina. Never made a visit. The campus. It was in those days a Baptist college, and that might have had some reason for applying there. And then Tufts University, which was around the corner, a 15-minute walk from home. The reason I guess I applied there is because it had a very good reputation academically, and my brother had graduated from there, again many years earlier. But I guess in that there was a minor legacy you might think. So, I got into both of them and for various and sundry reasons, because there were no scholarships that were being made available, it just seemed, and my parents were not wealthy, but they were going to have to pay the tuition, it made sense to go to Tufts, which was really the academically better school, and I could walk to campus, live at home. Which is what I did. So. that is how I ended up going there. I guess one other part of your question, how did I come in contact with YAF?
SM (00:11:02):
Yes.
WT (00:11:04):
That is a transitional one because what happened was after I got accepted at Tufts, I was able to get a summer job that they had, I guess for students and incoming students, working with the grounds and building department. And in those days, the kids would leave their dorm room a mess and anything they did not want, they just trashed and left there. Knowing from my daughter's experience, nowadays, they come around and monitor and you have to have everything out there and cleaned up. But in those days, they had just left the places a mess. And so, one of the first assignments at Grounds and Building was to go into the dorms and take all the trash, get all the trash out of the rooms. And in so doing, I came across this rather amateur looking publication called The New Guard, and nosy that I was, reading through this and saw that it was a conservative youth publication by an unknown group to me called Young Americans For Freedom. And so that is how I came in contact with YAF, just by chance coming across a publication that a kid had left in a dorm room. And wrote off and sought information and tried to find out if there was a chapter at Tufts, things like that.
SM (00:12:29):
Wow. Yeah. One of the things I want, again, I have read this, but the people that will be reading these interviews, they will not have read your book and all the people I have interviewed, they have not read the books, but it is the personalities and the basic information, it is a different venue to reach people. When you talk about the Young Americans for Freedom, it is mostly college students. There is no high school students involved here. Correct?
WT (00:12:53):
At that point in time, there were very-very few, as time went on into the (19)60s, even as (19)62, (19)63, there were high school students involved, very much so. And there is a couple examples of people like Al Della Bovie, who is the chairman or president or whatever of the Federal Home Loan Bank of New York. He got active and was the head of a chapter in New York City of basically high school students. So, yes. And then from that point on, there was maybe not at the original founding, but by the early (19)60s as the involvement, particularly in the Goldwater campaign began, there started to be a number of high school chapters, some of which were allowed on campus, but many times we are not campus high school chapters, but might be City High School chapter.
SM (00:14:04):
The number four question here, which is basically divided the 65 years that boomers have been alive in six different periods, and basically when I have asked this question to all of my interviewees, it is some have said, it is almost impossible to talk about a period, there is too much, but what first comes to your mind when you see these six periods? Like say that first one, (19)46 to 1960, when you think about America and what, just the period?
WT (00:14:40):
Yeah. I guess to me, first of all, it is childhood. But in terms of the broader picture, I guess it would be staid, culturally established, not much radical change.
SM (00:15:04):
And then that period (19)61 when John Kennedy comes into office to 1970 when Kent State happens.
WT (00:15:11):
Right, right. Well, I would argue there is two different periods that are drastically different there. The period up until, I guess if you really want to look at one event, maybe the March (19)65 Johnson expansion of Vietnam being the end of the first period. Which I think still, there were rumblings of change in society with the civil rights movement with some of this campus activity mainly on the West coast, but it started out as a very conservative kind of period. I relate to, I was a freshman in (19)61, and so I still remember the beanie that I had to wear as a freshman on campus. I still remember that there was a curfew for female students. I still remember that there were obviously separate dormitories, but there was, even at Tufts, there was a separate women's college called Jackson College, just like there was Harvard and Radcliffe and all the administratively distinctive women's institutions within the bigger institution. I remember that even by 1965 when I was a senior, what I, and many of us did, is we bought these blue blazers with a crest on it, with the year 1965 and the seal of the college and would wear them around.
SM (00:16:45):
Wow.
WT (00:16:46):
And we would get harassed as a freshman, if we did not have our beanie on. So that first period of time, I think, was still socially very conservative, even though the rumblings were there of the start of some of the other things. And then the second half was quite different. That is when social morays are changing and when the music is making much more impact on society, and of course you get Woodstock and all that other stuff. So, I think you cannot really just solely talk about the decade of the (19)60s. It is really two different groups that hit there.
SM (00:17:31):
Right. How about that period, (19)71 to (19)80, which is the some might say is through at least (19)73, (19)74 is a continuation of the latter half of the (19)60s, and then you get into the disco era and the music changed. What were your thoughts before Ronald Reagan became president, just your thoughts on that period?
WT (00:17:51):
Right-right. Well, there was a period, again, as you said, of a lot of malaise. There was a lot of discomfort in society. There was all the problems with Nixon and Watergate and Agnew. What would In effect was the defeat and withdrawal from Vietnam. There was the energy crisis that came in. There was inflation with the Jerry Floyd and his whip inflation now. And then of course, looking back on that period, you come across the picture of Jimmy Carter sitting with a sweater in front of a fireplace talking about the malaise that we were in. So, it was rather, I think in many ways, a kind of a depressing decade that had a lot of negative things associated with it.
SM (00:18:54):
How about that period, 1981 to 1990 that many say is the era of Reagan?
WT (00:19:00):
I think that was for me, and actually for many people, much more optimistic. I think Reagan came in and was able to re-enthuse the American people about the possibilities of the country and its role not only in the world, but its role in time, and what was happening. As the theme in the (19)84 election that "It is morning in America", kind of summarized it. It was a sense of optimism. Now, there was the down period of the Iran Contra and near the end of it, but I think pretty much that whole decade was one of much more economically, we were doing better, and I think inside, psychically we were doing better by dealing.
SM (00:19:58):
How about that 1991 to 2000 when President Bush and President Clinton-
WT (00:20:05):
Excuse me. That too, is not a bad decade. I think if one looks back historically on the Clinton administration, but Clinton had a lot of personal problems, as we all know. We do not have to get into those, but I think as a president and as a period of time, yeah, it was a very positive one. When you look back, whether you want to give some of the credit to the Republican control of Congress or the President or both, or whatever. It was the last period that we, after many, many years, of continual deficit, that we were running an annual budget that was not in deficit, and the economy was doing fairly well. So, I think it was a pretty positive time. With also starting at the beginning with really the downfall of the Soviet Union and taking away the threat of an any day impending nuclear disaster. It was before we got to realize that the spread of nuclear weapons to other countries, and maybe even movement in our countries could become a serious continuing threat to us. We had focused for so many years on the Soviet Union, and it was gone. That, I think, it started the decade where it started out very positively.
SM (00:21:43):
And then of course, the last decade, 2001 to now 2011 with President Bush and President Obama.
WT (00:21:51):
Right-right. Exactly. Again, early on, reality sets in that the world is not a wonderful and beautiful place with 9-11. I think that really set the tone for much of American's attitudes towards the rest of that decade is that threat from a non-governmental force of a group of extremists who were under the color of religion, were attempting to advance their ideological position and work at virtually no respect for human life and would involve anyone civilian, the non-governmental officials or what have you, in bringing down what they saw as the enemy.
SM (00:22:47):
You know what is really interesting?
WT (00:22:47):
I think-
SM (00:22:47):
Go ahead.
WT (00:22:47):
Economically, you had stuff down.
SM (00:22:54):
It is interesting when you look at this whole period, when you think of the 1972 Olympics and the terrible thing that happened with the terrorism that Olympics, the killing of the Israeli team, and then all throughout the (19)80s, the takeover of airplanes and pilots, and then of course leading up to 9-11, seems like that Terrorism has been around here for quite some time.
WT (00:23:18):
Yes, it has. True.
SM (00:23:20):
Yeah. Wow. It's been around half the lives of all the boomers, especially the front runner boomers. When you look at the generation, which, whether it be 74 or 79 million, I always see different numbers, but when you look at the generation as a whole, can you give some characteristics that you think are some of the strengths and weaknesses of the generation? Is that possible?
WT (00:23:48):
Yeah, and again, I am a Casper at best.
SM (00:23:54):
Yes.
WT (00:23:54):
I was born in (19)44, so I am just beyond being able to call myself a baby boomer because I think the true span is (19)46 to (19)64 at birth years. But having said all that, I guess a couple of things would be number one, growing up at a time of economic and political growth of the United States of America. I mean, the economy has changed and strengthened so much from after the World War II period in which the first ones were born. And politically coming out of World War II, there were only two great powers, and then eventually with the fall of the Soviet Union, only one for a period of time. And economically, the United States' strength internationally has grown tremendously. So I think it's been one where the generation has had great advancement. Almost every one of them have economically done better than their parents and have been able to look to the future with positive projection. The downside of that, of course, is maybe the over-emphasis on security and the anticipation and expectation that everything will be either given to you or easily obtained, which kind of leads maybe to a sense of entitlement that is beyond what should be. I guess that in a nutshell is probably the way I would describe it.
SM (00:25:46):
In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end, and what was the watershed moment?
WT (00:25:51):
Okay. Well, I think we have talked about that a little bit. I think there are two (19)60s. The (19)60s that is, I think you are referring to, I think probably began with Johnson's move in 1965 to enhance US involvement in the Vietnam War, and that probably was the pivotal event that activated many people on the left on college campuses, and by then the music and drugs and other things were starting to impact the community. So, that would be the watershed moment I think. The (19)60s as described that way rather than chronologically probably started to fade out by 1973 in the withdrawal of American troops, and the fact that their hero McGovern got so resoundingly defeated the left's hero, the left hero, Montgomery, got so resoundingly defeated the (19)72 election, and so that movement, if that is the (19)60s, kind of goes from (19)65 to (19)73 in my mind.
SM (00:27:16):
Yeah, that is excellent. Number seven is a little bit detailed here. I just picked these out myself, because they seem to be important either right, statements, slogans, or events or personalities that really affected college students, and I was curious what the Young Americans for Freedom were doing on college campuses when they happened. And the first one is, and again, it is just if your perception as person who not only was a leader for of the organization is, I believe it is executive director?
WT (00:27:51):
Right.
SM (00:27:52):
Yes. For 7 years?
WT (00:27:54):
No, no. I was only there... I was involved. I joined in (19)61 and basically got out by (19)75, so that is only 14 years, but I was executive director only from (19)71 to (19)73.
SM (00:28:08):
Okay. Very good. How did the young Americans for Freedom respond to Kennedy's, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."?
WT (00:28:19):
Sounds good, but not realistic because individuals ought to be looking out for themselves, and I think it ran counter to the individualistic strain in modern conservatism. That rather than having a loyalty to the country as primary, your individual concern and in taking care of yourself ought to come first.
SM (00:28:49):
Then we have the Bobby Kennedy quote. It was actually a quote from another writer from the 1900s-
WT (00:28:59):
Right-right.
SM (00:28:59):
But, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see-"
WT (00:29:03):
I think that would be one that they would grumble as to who was being quoted, but they would agree with that. That was really an attitude that they had.
SM (00:29:16):
That is a positive attitude then?
WT (00:29:18):
Absolutely.
SM (00:29:19):
Then Muhammad Ali, who was one of the primary athletic figures of the boomer generation, we all remember during the Vietnam War, "I will not fight in Vietnam and kill you yellow babies when we have black babies dying in our cities every day."
WT (00:29:36):
Yeah. I think they would say, Oh, he fails to understand the challenge of communism and how communism is going to kill yellow babies, black babies, white babies, regardless, and it is going to try to control all of the world, and that what we are fighting in Vietnam is international communism and an effort to take over a country, and we are not there to be killing little yellow babies.
SM (00:30:02):
Malcolm X is by any means necessary, one of the biggest slogans of the year.
WT (00:30:08):
Yeah, no, they would disagree with that and say that there is the rule of law and there are right appropriate ways to do things and not any means necessary.
SM (00:30:21):
Timothy Leary was the epitome of the counterculture, "Tune in, turn on, drop out."
WT (00:30:32):
There is where you get a little division by the late (19)60s into a couple of movements. Some in the organization were enthralled with parts of the counterculture and probably would agree with that to some degree, and that is the movement that gets described is the more libertarian element in the organization. But most would say that, no, this is totally wrong, that you have to become involved, stay involved and change society.
SM (00:31:05):
Peter Max's posters really often defined the hippie culture in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, very popular where I was going to school, and one that really stood out was this slogan, "You do your thing and I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, that would be beautiful."
WT (00:31:28):
Well, I think that, probably most of the actors would totally agree with, especially that would really reflect the more libertarian element in the organization and the sense of individual freedom. Yeah. Some of the more conservative ones would say, "Well, that is not quite true. You have to take consideration of society in the larger picture." But I'd say that most would agree with that.
SM (00:31:56):
And of course, the big-
WT (00:31:58):
Yeah.
SM (00:31:59):
...slogan, "Hell no, we will not go. We will not fight-"
WT (00:32:01):
No, they would be totally opposed to that.
SM (00:32:02):
We will not go. We will not fight it.
WT (00:32:02):
No. They would be totally opposed to that. Yeah. Was very sparling in support of the American effort throughout almost all the period of time. Only when we get into the (19)70s, and Nixon has his Vietnamization aspect of the war, did some less emphasis on that. And really then the emphasis shifted to concern about the POWs. So, no, this is something that they would totally reject.
SM (00:32:33):
Then the Call of Civil Rights was the uniting force was, "We Shall Overcome." That was the song, voices and-
WT (00:32:44):
Well, can I go off in two directions with that?
SM (00:32:45):
Yes.
WT (00:32:46):
One is, I think one of the big problems of the conservative movement in the (19)60s was its inability to support the legitimate goals of the civil rights movement and the breakdown of segregation. And so, that ended up hurting conservatives and more specifically Republicans by becoming too associated with segregationist in the undying south and discrimination, wherever it was in the country, by not identifying with the Civil Rights Movement. So in a retrospect afterthought, I think a number of conservatives now recognize that that was a very serious problem for the movement for us as individuals. But if taken out of that context of civil rights, the We Shall Overcome, is certainly an attitude and an approach that most [inaudible] would agree with and could be reflected basically after the defeat of Goldwater in 1964. Their rededication to the cause and the movement, We Shall Overcome, would be an accurate description as they went on to say, "Well, yeah. We got trapped, but we are not going to go away and take our marbles and go home. We are going to rededicate ourselves that we shall indeed overcome."
SM (00:34:22):
The Free Speech Movement and I have talked to a lot of people about this, the one from (19)64, (19)65 with Mario Savio and Jack Weinberg and Bettina Aptheker, that group, some historians even on the left have said that the historic history has not done justice to that event because of the fact they isolated it in (19)64, (19)65 from all the other protests that took place in the late (19)60s. But then other books say that was the precursor and the drive for protests on college campuses. What was YAF? That you have written extensively in the book on this, but this is a very important thing because it's about free speech. And the basic central thesis was, and I remember Mario Salvio talking to about it, there is a brand-new book out on Mario Salvio by Robbie Cohen from NYU. And that is that ideas, the university should be about ideas, not about corporate control on universities. And so, they looked upon this. They were not planning to do protests, it just seemed to happen because the administration denied their right to hand out literature off campus right near Sayer Gate. And what happened is that you unified even the conservative students, when the students were told they could not do something, it was an amazing mistake on the part of the administration at that time. But your thoughts on The Free Speech Movement at Berkeley and YAF's response to it. Are you still there? Hello? [inaudible] You still there? What? Shit. [inaudible] just asked you a question about the Young Americans for Freedom's response to The Free Speech Movement in (19)64, (19)65 at Berkeley.
WT (00:37:33):
Right. Divided and when it started out for the local YAF chapter at Berkeley was supportive of it. The whole movement began over distribution of political literature on campus. And the administration had ruled that you could not distribute any political literature on campus because it was state government property and there was no solicitation allowed on big government property, like an office building or something. And so, they expelled a guy who thought, questioned, he was really on the border apparently, whether he was on campus or off campus at this point nowadays, they expelled him. They had him in the car ready to take him away, and the students all just surrounded the car. And eventually, I think he and a policeman were in there for 24 hours or something like that before they could rescue him. And that is what started the whole thing. And so, in that context, the YAF chapter stood with the, yeah, I think we call it the [inaudible]. Other groups opposed. As it got on, it became not so much free speech for everyone, but free speech for us, but no speech, right? For anyone else. And therefore, when people wanted to debate issues, there was no debate because there was only one right side, left side. So, from that point on, it became not a question of free speech on campus, but really who is going to control the campus? Whether to let the student activists or the administration [inaudible] control. And at that point, yeah, on almost every campus, yeah, I do not want to say they were defenders of the establishment, but in effect they were defenders of order on campus.
SM (00:39:50):
How about the Pentagon Papers and Daniel Ellsberg? Because he was big. He was actually speaking on college campuses and there was a lot of-
WT (00:40:01):
Yeah.
SM (00:40:01):
That was big.
WT (00:40:03):
Yeah, it was. And I think the only thing I could say is that they would, yeah, it would have been YAF would have been opposed mainly because he was perceived and rightly so, as part of an anti-war leftist movement that was against the war in Vietnam. And less concerned about the issue of disclosing information as contrasted with just him as the spokesman for the left.
SM (00:40:35):
How about the Chicago 8 Trial? Which is these names here that I have on my list are the eight defendants, and their two main lawyers. So, they were well known left activists, all of them.
WT (00:40:48):
Yeah. YAF would have been opposed to every bit of that and their actions and their efforts to defend themselves. So yeah, that was an issue that certainly was talked about after the 1968 Convention where all that writing took place.
SM (00:41:10):
Now I get kind of in particular here in some of these other ones, what was the Young Americans for Freedom's thoughts on the American Indian Movement? A lot of West Coast colleges were really linked to this, California, Oregon. And so, the takeover of Alcatraz in (19)69 was pretty big. And then of course the tragedy Wounded Knee in (19)73. And then where was YAF on the aim?
WT (00:41:41):
I do not think actively involved. Not actively involved. It was not a front burner issue for the organization. And if they actually took a stand on it, I cannot recall it.
SM (00:42:00):
Some say the very big major last protest, 1969 in Washington, the Moratorium?
WT (00:42:07):
Right.
SM (00:42:07):
Where was YAF on that?
WT (00:42:10):
Totally opposed. Organized against it. That was the occasion of the start of what was referred to as the Tell it to Lanoy Movement with distribution of literature and speakers on campuses, not on the date of the big rally in DC but surrounding it from the board some after. The message that YAF was saying is, "You're talking to the wrong people. Tell it Lanoy. If you want to stop the slaughter and the murder of children and the bombing and everything else, tell it to Lanoy, which is the force that is trying to overtake the Soviet government.
SM (00:42:53):
And then two other real strong activist groups.
WT (00:43:00):
Okay. Yeah.
SM (00:43:01):
Yeah. Earth Day in (19)70, the Environmental Movement, and of course the Gay and Lesbian Movement from Stonewall in (19)69. They all evolved and took their lead from.
WT (00:43:12):
Well Earth Day, I think was a concern that, and the movement and the environmentalists were trying to restrict and limit the American business and the capitalist system. At that point in time, I think that was more the concern and the focus on the issue itself. Stonewall, fully oblivious to it, I think as an organization. And if social security is the third rail of American politics, to a large degree at that period of time and throughout the (19)70s, and I am going to say almost all the (19)80s, in the organization, homosexuality was probably the third rail of the Conservative Movement. And this is a period of time when virtually all homosexuals, female or male were, as the expression goes, in the closet. It existed. There were a number of gays who were involved. I do not know of any lesbians per se, but a number of male gays who were involved in the Conservative Movement through that period of time. And it was not an issue that was discussed with any extent. I think it was predominant probably in the organization what was culturally the accepted mode of the time that homosexuality was not something that was accepted as, I do not want to use the word normal, but as the norm and one's sexual orientation was not discussed in public. So, what happens later on in the organization, and by that, I mean by late, early (19)90s, is the strain comes in that is very anti-homosexual and start talking about sodomites and all of this stuff, which certainly not anywhere [inaudible].
SM (00:45:46):
I know that in some of my interviews, because I have interviewed some major gay leaders and activists, and their dislike of Ronald Reagan is so intense because of the AIDS crisis. And when you mentioned the word, and these are the activists, these are the gay and lesbian activists of then and now, he is despised because he would not even talk about the issue, would not even recognize it as an issue. So, when you're talking about AIDS around (19)81 to (19)85, that is a serious issue for them.
WT (00:46:20):
Yes. You are right. And I do not think, and it probably was overlooked in the [inaudible] and regarded as, "Well, if you shut down the bath houses, maybe there would not be AIDs," kind of, which was an emotional and irrational reaction to it.
SM (00:46:43):
How about the Women's Movement and the formation of the National Organization For Women?
WT (00:46:49):
Right.
SM (00:46:49):
It became very powerful. And there has been many offshoots of that group as well, but that particular-
WT (00:46:55):
Well, this is again, I think sort of like we talked about the impetus of the free speech movement at Berkeley. This is similar. I think at the beginning of the Woman's Movement, there was a good deal of support, but not just solely among females in the organization, but in general for what the objectives were of equal treatment and opportunities and non-discrimination against females. And I go in the book to a discussion of that in the early (19)70s, there was a number of articles that were written pro and con, and letters pro and con on the Woman's Movement. And I think the one thing in YAF was the use of the Women's Movement by the political left as an organizing tool. They were opposed to, in distinction, to the objective of the Women's Movement, which was equal treatment. There were even some, the Equal Rights Amendment came up about the early (19)70s period and associated with this. And while most in the YAF were against that for amending the Constitution, there were a few supporters, particularly some female leaders in the organization saying that, "Well, this is the only way you can guarantee that there is equal treatment of females." So, there's a little bit of diversity on that issue.
SM (00:48:28):
And my talks with some of the women feminists, many look at Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan as mainstream. And of course, Bella Abzug is more out there in the extremes. This is a very sensitive area, the Black Panthers and the Brown Berets. The whole issue of black power with, as someone said to me, when you start saying Black Panthers, you better define who you're talking about. Because there were so many different personalities from Huey Newton to the two Cleavers, Kathleen and Eldridge, Bobby Seal, H. Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael toward the end when he left SNCC and certainly the death of Fred Hampton and Dave Hilliard and Elaine Brown, the list goes on and on. Angela Davis was not a Black Panther. So, your thoughts on what did YAF think of the Black Panthers and the Brown Berets from the Chicano Movement?
WT (00:49:28):
Yeah, okay. Certainly the Black Berets, the Black Panthers or sorry. There is the two. Very much opposed to them, wrote a lot against them, excuse me, felt they were part of the Left Wing Movement on campuses and in communities, were using violence, like the Malcolm X, by any means necessary. And so, were totally opposed to their methodology. In terms of their objectives, some of which they might have supported, which was empowerment for Black community and entrepreneurial opportunities. But it was certainly their methodology that was totally opposed. Brown Berets, the question might be directed best to somebody who was in California or Arizona or the West Coast. They were a non-entity for us who were then living on the coast. And so, I do not think there was much. Later on, there is reaction against Cesar Chavez, the great boycott and the United Farm Workers Union, but that is different from the Brown Berets.
SM (00:50:51):
Did they support that?
WT (00:50:51):
No, not at all.
SM (00:50:54):
See? The Brown Berets are awful. They are also very strong in Newark and New York City because that is where Puerto Rican and they're a very strong group and they really admire the Black Panthers.
WT (00:51:10):
Yeah and that certainly... No, YAF did not have any real involvements or attention directed towards them.
SM (00:51:19):
That whole, "I have a dream," speech in '63 because it really brought forth most of the civil rights leaders of that time and Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and A. Philip Randolph and the list goes on and on. Where was YAF when that major march was happening in '63? And then even as years later, Dr. King went against the Vietnam War and he was criticized heavily even within the African American community, but what were the thoughts on Dr. King, SNCC, SCLC, CORE?
WT (00:51:55):
I think that, "I have a Dream," speech was one that even YAF certainly since then, most conservatives have said that is a great speech and that our children should grow up in a society where they are based upon the [inaudible] their character and not the color of their skin. All of that has been recited by conservatives nowadays. But I think even back then, most conservatives would have been and the YAF would have been, "Yes, we agree with that." The march on Washington more in terms of geez, this is the right way to go about it in a society based on the rule of law. At that point, it did not [inaudible] their turn. And certainly, when he gave the Vietnam War speech, that was something that YAFers would have turned against him.
SM (00:52:54):
How about the whole concept of non-violent protests? Because the Civil Rights Movement in the early (19)60s through right probably up to the time Dr. King died, and even in maybe with the other leaders too, like Ralph Abernathy has said, "Go ahead, disrupt. Non-violent protest, Gandhi, go to jail for your beliefs," that kind of thing. Where would the YAF stand on that?
WT (00:53:19):
Probably supporting the methodology to some extent, although they would not have been supporters of both [inaudible]. Non-violent protests would be something that they would still be in favor of certainly.
SM (00:53:36):
And I think we have already talked about the student protest because when you think of student protest, you do think of Columbia (19)68, Harvard Square, Kent State in (19)70. The tragedy at Wisconsin, Berkeley, and I know in all the SUNY systems and all the Ohio colleges, Ohio University for one, a major protest for years.
WT (00:54:01):
And the YAF stood against all that and was organizing as much as possible on campuses using a couple approaches, one of which was what was called Majority Coalition, which was the distribution for blue buttons, stood for peace on [inaudible]. Taking the position that students had a contract with university and education classes should be held, campuses should not be shut down. And a few instances, YAF leaders actually sued administrations for the loss of tuition by virtue of closing the campus early and/or suspending classes for a period of time to go along with the-
SM (00:54:48):
Which happened a lot after Kent State-
WT (00:54:52):
Yes.
SM (00:54:52):
Yeah. The other group is the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, which really became strong in the early (19)70s. And Bobby Muller is a very well-known Vietnam Veteran who, when he went to war, he was gung ho. But when he came back, he said with a lot of Vietnam Veterans Against the War said that he realized that America is not always the good guy. And he has actually been saying that his entire life in all the things he's done. And of course he was paralyzed for the service. Your thoughts on what YAF thought about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and that mentality that Bobby had?
WT (00:55:34):
Well, two things. I think, number one, we thought that they were wrong on the position on the war. And that the war was a legitimate war against communist aggression from the north. And that we were right to be aiding our allies in South Vietnam and with all kinds of agenda to it like maybe they ought to be more involved. Maybe they ought to be more Vietnamization. Maybe we ought to relying more on both Vietnam itself to carry the war and non-American soldiers, but still to be supportive of that effort. So, we would have disagreed with the whole approach or the whole position of the organization's approach.
SM (00:56:19):
Let me turn my tape here-
WT (00:56:21):
And I think we would also, YAF would have also feel that in the vast majority of cases, nothing being absolute, America is the good guy, and America stands for certain values, but are applicable not only in North America or in a geographical territory [inaudible].
SM (00:56:42):
Right. I know Bobby Muller and Ron Kovic were two of the leading anti-war activists. I know we talk about John Kerry, but he was not even in the same league with those two. Hold on, I have to turn my tape over. Hold. Yeah. We're almost under these vote sections here. And was YAF inbound in prison rights, too? What did they think about there were a lot of happenings in the (19)60s about what happened at Attica with the Prison Rights in (19)71? And certainly Angela Davis made the news with the George Jackson situation at San Quentin. Where did YAF stand on all the Prison Rights issues?
WT (00:57:28):
Nowhere. I do not think it was something on their radar or their attention span. Though I do not think there was any position on that.
SM (00:57:44):
The whole-
WT (00:57:44):
On Angela Davis who was described as a communist and if they were in opposition, anything, pretty much anything she did, virtue of right knowledge.
SM (00:57:53):
Did they ever have any thoughts on George Jackson because he had kind of symbolized the inmates at the time?
WT (00:58:04):
Not that I am aware of.
SM (00:58:07):
Yeah. The whole thing, the concept of what the Young Americans of Freedom thought about the hippies, the Yippies, the counterculture, Woodstock, the Summer of Love and of course the tragedy of Altamont, where were they on all those kinds of cultural things?
WT (00:58:24):
Divided. There was an element, particularly those who consider themselves more libertarian who closely identified with that. And the expression of individual freedom and individual rights that they associated with that. And then there was a more traditionalist element to well, they might have liked music and things like that, felt that it was going too far. So, it was really divided.
SM (00:58:59):
Yeah. I get right into the music here, because you cannot talk about the (19)60s, early (19)70s without the music. I mean, it was a very political force. It was a cultural force. It was a... Well, just a pleasure force for many and you're talking about the rock musicians of the period, the folk music, the Motown sound, even country in Western was really evolving at this time. Where was YAF? And were they listening to all this music?
WT (00:59:28):
Yes. Very much so and I think that you get different music reviews actually in the magazine of some of the art at the time and trying to interpret politically some of what the artists were expressing. Certainly the Beatles song Revolution was one that was very much listened to and in depth was endeared to that song. They had a poster with the people on it of [inaudible] because it was an anti, if you recall the word though, it was anti-revolt message. Yep. [inaudible]
SM (01:00:17):
How about John Lennon's Give Peace A Chance and Imagine?
WT (01:00:23):
Yeah. Those two would be exceptions to what I just said.
SM (01:00:24):
Oh, okay.
WT (01:00:27):
I think they would have been politically not agreed with. Maybe Imagine a little bit, but certainly not Give Peace a Chance. But not even Imagine. I mean, they would listen to it, but the words, they would tone two-note probably. Yeah. Watergate, Ford Pardon, Carter Amnesty. Young Americans for Freedom divorced itself from Richard Dixon in 1971, along with many other conservative politicians, individual, and was not supportive of Nixon well before Watergate ever broke. They were involved in the movement for trying to nominate John Ashbrook as a protest to Nixon in the 1952 primaries. When the 1972 election came along and McGovern was Democrat's choice, they were certainly opposed to McGovern, but they did not like Nixon. So, what the YAF formed was local clubs on campuses called Youth Against McGovern, indicating that we really could not come right out [inaudible] Nixon because we did not agree with him and without giving [inaudible] a bad name. But we were certainly an opposed to governing the way he [inaudible] the country. The Ford pardon? I do not think we really had a position too much on that, but Carter's Amnesty, we were opposed to. Well, opposed to [inaudible] those two had gone [inaudible].
SM (01:02:13):
I added these last two. Obviously, they probably did not like Black students with guns at Cornell Campus, but the historic event of the (19)68 Olympics with Tommie Smith and John Carlos raising their fists. They were not Black... We had Tommie on our campus. They were not Black Panthers. They get upset when they mentioned that they do not even like the Black Panthers. It was Black power to them. And just, that was a major event in (19)68 along with all the other things, but-
WT (01:02:44):
Yeah. I think like everything else, it symbolized left on campus and the Left Movement in America. Probably no focus on them individually too much or what they did. Although it was...
SM (01:03:01):
That meeting at Sharon was very historic in 1960. For the record, I know it is all in the book and I know you are a lot of things, but who was present? Whose idea was it to meet? Who were some of the personalities that were present and who went on to greater fame and other organizations? And why was there a feeling that student activists needed to organize this group on college campus around the country?
WT (01:03:35):
Yeah. I will try to summarize this succinctly again. The late 1960s, excuse me, late 1950s there started to be a little bit of an organization of a conservative orient individuals. Started with, I am going to say the National Student Defense Act and the program- And the program of giving scholarships to certain students and also grants to certain universities for science and other things, kind of... I guess kind of a reaction to the US realization that technologically we were not quite as advance as we should be. And part of that was the loyalty of that. Students who received funding, had scholarships to study on, had to sign an agreement that they were to defend the constitution and support the constitution and that they were not involved in any organizations they advocate to be of the government. There was a movement from the left... Oh, a number of campuses and college presidents said, "oh, we cannot do this because this is in denial of academic freedom, cannot make them sign it". And so there was a movement in Congress led by John F. Kennedy to repeal the loyalty of provision. And this was like 1959. And a few students led by two people, David Frankie and Doug Caddy, who were then students at Georgetown. George Washington and Georgetown respectively. Started organizing national students for the Loyalty Oath and made contacts primarily, I believe, through what was then the young republicans on college campus across the country lined up one or more individuals on 120 campuses and wrote congressmen and testified on Capitol Hill. For various unknown reasons the repeal never went through. I think it passed in the Senate, but never got a hearing in the house or something like that. Anyway, that was the impetus. That was followed up quickly by the 1960 Republican Convention in Chicago where a group of young, who were enamored of Barry Goldwater and his then just recently released The Conscience of Conservative, came together to organize youth for Goldwater for Vice President push at the Chicago Convention to nominate him. There was a subsidiary of that that was also supporting Walter Judd, who at that time was keynote speaker and was a congressman from Minnesota as Vice President. Marvin Leman, who was kind of an impresario of the right and organizer of many paper organizations of Frank. Basically underwrote the funding for both youth for Goldwater for Vice President and youth for... Well, Judd kiddingly said "the only time in history, that two candidates’ for Vice President were both funded with same American Express card."
SM (01:07:32):
Oh my gosh.
WT (01:07:32):
So, these people got to know each other first through mail, I guess because we did not have any other, and telephone on the loyalty of issue. And then physically came together in Chicago to try to organize this way. At the end of that, there were two meetings at the end of the convention. One Goldwater came by and thanked the youth for Goldwater people and said that he had made a speech on the force, said, "conservatives grow up. If you want to take back this party, and I think you can just get organized". But then he came and he met with the youth for Goldwater people and said, "I think you ought to form a permanent organization, and if you do, I will support you". Likewise, the next day there was the... Marvin Leman had a meeting with both of the... from the leadership, both of those gentlemen. And that is where the discussion focused around, "we ought to form an organization. Well we have got to have a meeting, where will we have it?" And somebody, I think it was Leman, somebody said, "well, why do not we ask Bill Buckley if we can have it at his family upstate?" And that was the purpose for the meeting. Buckley family, his mother actually, it is her house, she agreed to do it. And then Caddy, who was working for the McGraw-Edison company, was given the time to organize and send all invitations that went to, I believe 120 college and undergrad graduate students, law students and others inviting them to come to the meeting at Sharon. This would have been... The convention was in July of (19)60, this would have been in August. They were invited at their own expense to come to a meeting in September 9 and 11 in Sharon, Connecticut at the Buckley family at Bay. Some 95, 96 people showed up, none of whom were over the age of 27. And I think, I do not know if there was a high school, there might have been one or two high schools. The rest of them were undergrad, grad and law school, or a very small number of 15 or so who were young professionals. And that is the meeting where the organization came into being. Buckley and Bill Buckley himself was there, along with Bill Rusher, who was there at the publisher, Marvin Leman Vic Milione, who was the president of Intercollegiate Society of Individualists, now known as Intercollegiate Studies Institute.
SM (01:10:49):
Oh yeah. Right in Delaware. Yep.
WT (01:10:54):
And Frank Pousel, who was Buckley's brother-in-law, had been the ghost writer for [inaudible] conservatives. Those five guys were all regarded as too old as senior mentors. And they were all, Buckley at that time was 35. The others were all in their 30, but they were too old. I mean, this is how young the conservative movement was at that time. That these guys, none of them would reach 40 with an outer state movement. And who were they? There were a couple who became Congressman, Bob... No, Bob [inaudible] John Kolbe from longtime congressman from Arizona Was there, there were a number of writers, other individuals, the list they [inaudible].
SM (01:12:00):
What and what were their ultimate, were their main goals when they left after that meeting. What were the main goals they wanted to accomplish?
WT (01:12:08):
Number one, organize. And come together so they could network and share their experiences and try to advance conservative principles on college campuses and in community. And as a secondary goal, as a more specific one, was to advance the possible candidacy of Barry Goldwater.
SM (01:12:34):
Yeah, that is important because I am going to skip 9-A here for a second. I want to go right to 10 because this is something... Even if it is just general knowledge, people who do not read a lot of history but know basic information, and I have heard this a long time, that the 64 Goldwater Miller campaign has often been somewhat misunderstood with the respect to its importance in American politics in the last half of 20th century. In the years following the election, people remember how one side of the election was, Goldwater was basically destroyed by Johnson in the election. However, it was a major step in the creation of the conservative party and weigh it's influence in American politics that had gone unreported. Why is... When we think of that election, we think of that great quote from Goldwater, that we think of... and we think of the pick the person that no one really knew whose daughter has gone on to become a pretty good political commentator herself. And then of course that he was a good senator, but he should not have been running for president. Yet. He was so important.
WT (01:13:49):
Yeah-yeah, exactly.
SM (01:13:51):
And so, people downplay this moment because he got creamed.
WT (01:13:55):
Yeah-yeah, yeah, exactly.
SM (01:13:57):
Your thoughts on anything there on that?
WT (01:14:00):
Okay. All right, let us go back. In the early (19)60s when YAF was founded after the 1960 presidential... YAF was founded just after the presidential election. Well, let us go beyond that election. Kennedy's elected. Goldwater is the hero of the right, particularly among young conservatives. And there a growing number of them on college campuses to a large degree in that period of the early (19)60s, there was a radical movement on college campuses. It was of conservatives. Conservatives were the outspoken advocates. There is a quote I have in the book from one student at University of Wisconsin and he says, "when I walk around campus with my Goldwater button on, you feel the thrill of treason". And I think that summarizes to a large extent the attitude of people who were in YAF, who were backing Goldwater is we are doing something that is against the establishment that is going to change society. And here is the guy who can lead it. Conscience of a conservative became through its paperback edition a tremendous seller on college campuses and an influence. So, Goldwater became very much the leader and the political, I mean Buckley was somewhat the ideological leader, philosophical leader, but Goldwater was the political figure around whom everyone in the organization and on the right really identified, but there was no one else. And what was building up in our minds and in Goldwater's mind and in many people’s, mind was a clash of philosophical and ideological importance in 1964, when Kennedy would defend liberalism and Goldwater would defend conservatism in America would have the great debate over which way the country ought to be moving. Goldwater and Kennedy is... From Goldwater's perspective, at least in the books and things that I have read, was felt a friendship with Kennedy. And they were individually liked each other, but obviously disagreed on philosophical positions. And Goldwater had this, whether it's a totally optimistic idea or not, but he reports that he had talked with Kennedy and they had even discussed the possibility of these are just the early days before a lot of securities concerns now that they would go on a plane from city to city and debate probably never would have come into being, but that is at least what he said or has said. But that is indicative of the way he was approaching that 1964 election and many people were. Then comes November of 22nd of 1963, the tragedy in Dallas, which results obviously not only in the assassination of the president and to the White House of Lyndon Johnson. But in the media at that time, a black mark on conservatives, the blame is, even though there's obviously a reason for it, and Lee Harvey Oswald was who he was, that somehow conservatives because they were strong and in Dallas were responsible for all this. You still there?
SM (01:17:39):
Yep, I am here.
WT (01:17:42):
Okay, because I am getting bleeps on my phone. I do not know what is going on.
SM (01:17:47):
Oh, I hope your power is not going out again.
WT (01:17:49):
Oh, hold on for just a minute.
SM (01:17:50):
Yep.
WT (01:17:52):
Oh, it says low battery. Hold on, let me...
SM (01:17:57):
You have your regular phone?
WT (01:17:59):
Pardon?
SM (01:17:59):
Do you have your regular phone landline or?
WT (01:18:03):
No, this is the landline. Hold on, see if I can get another one.
SM (01:18:06):
Okay.
WT (01:18:06):
Maybe, hold on, [inaudible].
(01:18:07):
Are you there?
SM (01:18:20):
Yep, I am here.
WT (01:18:21):
Okay. All right. Okay. There is going to be this great debate and then comes Johnson and Johnson's totally different guy and Goldwater is totally demoralized. Probably does not want to run for them at that point, but he says, and I quote this in the book, "they came to me and they said there were all these young people who wanted me to run and were encouraged and developed all across the country". And so, I said, "okay, I will go". That is probably kind of a little bit of literary licensed by Goldwater there and his motivation. But anyway, it does stress how important the youth movement across the country was in backing Goldwater and motivate him to run.
SM (01:19:15):
Well. I am glad.
WT (01:19:15):
And that is it.
SM (01:19:17):
Yeah. Well, I am glad you present this because, when people are reading these oral history interviews, I want them to learn and I... It is like, for example, when Harry Summers, I do not know if you know Colonel Summers, before he passed away, we had him come to Westchester University to talk about the Vietnam War and he said the one thing that they never teach in courses on the Vietnam War, on the university campuses, is the military point of view. And so we had Harry coming and then he got very sick and then he died. And so same thing, certain things are left out, I do not want things left out.
WT (01:20:02):
Yeah, exactly. And that is it. So, it was from that Goldwater movement that so many people who were active in the (19)90s and the early part of the 21st century in conservative movement really got their start. Whether they were high school students, many of them were, or college students or young adults. And the important lesson, I guess also, that I would emphasize is, and I think this is a message for some of the people who are involved in the Tea Party perhaps, although a different outcome there, is they did not give up after that defeat, which was a resounding defeat. They said, it is time to organize and keep fighting and went on in the ones in California elected Reagan as governor in (19)66, and then in New York in (19)70 elected Jim Buckley and were involved in Reagan's presidential campaign.
SM (01:21:02):
That goes right... I am actually going to do questions 11 and 12 before 9-A. And that is that, when Ronald Reagan came to power in California, he took on two issues, which was obviously the law and order issue to stop the student protests and the destruction of the classes, and particularly against the free speech movement and the people's parks situation (19)69. And then he fired the President Kurt, for not being tough enough with students. And then of course he wanted to end the welfare state. He was against the system of welfare and he hoped to stop it. And he used those two issues. Also, law and order and welfare when he ran for president, yet became connected to Ronald Reagan in (19)76 and (19)80 and beyond. How important was their role in his election as governor in California? And then of course his election as President of the United States?
WT (01:21:56):
Very important in, let us take (19)66, the first election, it was people who were associated with YAF who were head of the students were Reagan [inaudible] and went on... As a matter of fact, YAF was able to recruit at that time, there was a guy by the name of Sam Yorty who had been the Democratic mayor of Los Angeles.
SM (01:22:22):
Oh yeah, I remember. Yep.
WT (01:22:22):
Democratic Governors nomination, the leader of the youth for Yorty, the leader of youth for Christopher. There was a former San Francisco mayor by the name of George Christopher who ran against Reagan in the Republican Party and both of their youth leaders joined YAF along with the people who were involved in the Reagan campaign and all backed Reagan in the general election. Who were some of these people? Sean Steele, who is now the Republican National Committee man from California and is the former Republican state chairman of California, was the head of high school students for Reagan. And later on, the national board of YAF. Dana Rohrabacher, who's a congressman from Orange County since the last 20 years, I guess.
SM (01:23:16):
Yes. He has been on TV a lot.
WT (01:23:21):
Yeah. He was one of the high school leaders for Reagan in 66 and went on to be very involved and eventually ended up being a speech writer at the White House when Reagan went to president, prior to being elected to Congress. Bill Cinosino who is a very active political consultant in California was also a leader of the youth for Reagan. I think he just started at USC then. So those were a few, there were a number of others who were very active in his election. And it came to the point where as Cinosino and others said from that point on, YAF and Reagan were tied at the hip, and whatever Reagan did as governor was reflective of YAF, and somewhat vice versa. When YAF got into some ideological disputes at its 1969 convention, and some of the more libertarian members were going off doing things like advocating the legalization of marijuana and draft resistant, a few other things like that. Some of them were removed from the organization, but Reagan was very much concerned about what was happening to the organization. In my book, I cite some correspondence...
SM (01:24:49):
Yes-yes.
WT (01:24:49):
... From Bill Buckley about this and indicative of how closely the two were associated for YAF, whatever Reagan did was a reflection on YAF, but vice versa, whatever YAF did was a reflection on Reagan. And Reagan was obviously looking to his 1970 reelection.
SM (01:25:10):
Yes.
WT (01:25:11):
And concerned about what was this youth group doing, that might embarrass him. But not that he wanted to divorce himself from it, but he wanted to be concerned to make sure was on the right track. So that is it.
SM (01:25:25):
Yeah. You do a great job in the book of explaining that in 69 when students from Democratic Society was having their issues in terms of the direction they were going, and of course they went the wrong direction with the weather men, and then many quit SDS, this same time was the timeframe that these battles were going on for the conscience of the young Americans for Freedom.
WT (01:25:54):
Exactly.
SM (01:25:55):
And so that... See, that is an important part of history that also has to be known.
WT (01:26:00):
Right-right. I agree.
SM (01:26:03):
I have always wondered your thoughts on the press because, and many people that I have interviewed for this project say, the press always loves to sensationalize the bad and not really talk about what is the good. When you, please describe the press in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and white groups like SDS, the Weathermen, the Panthers, AIM, Vietnam vets against the war, Brown Berets, now, all these other groups, environmental groups, received greater press than YAF. Why was YAF shut out, so to speak, and what was their stand? Well, why was the press not talking more about the Young Americans for Freedom?
WT (01:26:41):
Well, it depends. There was some discussion, not as much national, but I think I cite a few things in my book, a couple articles in Parade Magazine, there was an interview with Philip Appaloosa at the time was college director at [inaudible] Playboy, and there was some coverage and some local news, but mainly the coverage occurred when we were having counter demonstrations or rallies in opposition to the left. I do think that the left caught the attention of the media because of the kinds of activities they engaged in, the more drama that is associated with or takeover or protests of one sort or another. And admittedly, those things, perhaps bad news is more reflective in the media than good news. And that is just kind of the way it is. People do good deeds every day, but they do not get in the news.
SM (01:27:53):
What was their stand on the Vietnam War it's my understanding that they oppose the war, but received little coverage.
WT (01:28:00):
Now, who opposed the war?
SM (01:28:02):
The YAF.
WT (01:28:05):
No. No.
SM (01:28:05):
That is not true?
WT (01:28:07):
That is not true. I do not know of anyone of substance in the organization that opposed the war. As we get into the (19)70s, there is a discussion in how important that ought to be pushed as an issue, and some people in the organization are getting very depressed about the outcome of the war, but I do not think they... And they said we ought to downplay our involvement in support of the war, but not that they were opposed to the war.
SM (01:28:44):
Do you like the term boomer generation? Is there a better term that you feel describes this, 74 to 79 million born between (19)46 and (19)64?
WT (01:28:57):
No, that I think it is fine, and I think it is the reflection of population patterns that occurred after the World War II. So, no, I do not have any problem with it.
SM (01:29:12):
I am going to get to 9-A eventually here, but I want to mention also about the fact that Dana, I have worked with the Young Americas Foundation for many years when I worked in the university with Pat Coyle and...
WT (01:29:21):
Oh yeah.
SM (01:29:22):
I got to know Ron Robinson just in the past year, and I had Michelle Easton on our campus. But what is interesting is, and I have had some conversations with Pat about this several years back, and that is that, I am an activist and he is doing organizing activists who are conservatives. And I have always had this feeling that when, this is my question here, when one thinks of activists, oftentimes some people think of liberals, not conservatives, but activism is no political boundaries. Everyone can be an activist. And so it is. Do you feel as a former leader of YAF that groups like YAF are not considered activists by the media because they are conservative, not liberal? It is just something that I have always had a question on.
WT (01:30:10):
No, I am not sure that is true. I think it probably was true during the period of time that we were reflecting on mainly here. But I think if we look at the time today, the media portrays the Tea party as activist, and indeed they are. And so, I am not quite sure. I think it's just that they did not give that much coverage to what YAF was doing. It is not that they did not regard them as activists, but I may be wrong on that.
SM (01:30:44):
We already talked about number 15, so we do not have to go over that again before we get 16. I want to read this for the record. This is a question I have asked everyone from day one. This is just a question now, it is an observation. The extreme rank, and I am going to read it for the record. The extreme right and conservative forces like to blame the generation that grew up after World War II for many of the problems we have in American society today due to the sexual revolution, the breakup of the American family, loss of church and synagogue attendants, extensive drug culture, the rise in the divorce rate, the "I want it now" mentality that some say caused the current financial crisis in America, i.e. A consumption society due to the fact that they were oftentimes spoiled as kids. The creation of the welfare state mentality where people ask for handouts or expect something for doing nothing or no sense of responsibility, lack of respect for people and authority, people and authority from all types of professions and leadership, lack of law and order due to student citizen protests in the (19)60s, (19)70s, and in some (19)50s, too many led to violence, arrogance, " we are right and you are wrong" mentality, extensive rights, complaints, indoctrination over education in our schools over higher learning. How do you respond as a fellow conservative to these criticisms? Sort a generation of 74 to 79 million who grew up after World War II and challenged the way they were brought up in the (19)50s via actions in the (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, and beyond. And I end by saying, many people believe that this is really about the culture wars, your thoughts, knowing we went through a period in the late (19)80s, (19)90s and beyond where political correctness was used every day. I saw it every day in the university. It's less so today, leaders who have made negative comments about the excesses of the (19)60s and (19)70s include Newt Gingrich in (19)94. George Will and many of his columns over the years, David Horowitz, who went from an extreme leftist to extreme member of the right governor Huckabee on his TV show, Fox Channel, and people like O'Reilly, Beck on Fox, and of course Limbaugh on Radio. Your thoughts.
WT (01:33:08):
Wow, that is a tough one. First of all, I think you have obviously cited a number of the issues that have changed in American society. I think some for the good and some not for the good. And it has been, in a sense, a growth of individual expression in many ways, and a breakdown of the social barriers and mores that listed before. But I think there were all kinds of people who came out of this generation, and I do not think you can face a blanket responsibility on them. So yes, there have been some negatives, but there has been an awful lot of positives that have come out of the period of time in terms of our ability technologically and otherwise to communicate and to operate. Certainly, during this period of time, the downfall of the Soviet Union and international communist, certainly a positive, the internet, the technological development that are the [inaudible] So there is pluses in the minuses, and I do not think you can divide an entire generation. So.
SM (01:34:36):
Do you think that a lot of this is, we are still going through culture wars from that period, and we see...
WT (01:34:42):
Yeah. Yeah.
SM (01:34:42):
We seem to not be able to get over the (19)60s and (19)70s in just about anything.
WT (01:34:47):
Yes-yes, yes, that is true. And I think we are, and we are still fighting some of those wars, and these were issues that were not present when YAF was created. And through it is first period of time. We sometimes overlook, and I think I mentioned this in the book, I will just cite it here, that it was not until 1962 that the Supreme Court in (19)63, the Supreme Court came out with the prohibition on prayer in the public schools and Bible reading the readings prayer position, and then Ingovit versus Patali did not come out after YAF was founded. Of course, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act came after that. And Roe versus Wade was not until 1973. So, in the early years in the formation of the organization, there were the so-called social issued were not a factor, and even later, as I talked about the connection to the women's movement in the [inaudible] there were divisions and diversity opinion... [inaudible] diversity of opinion. One of the founders at Sharon is a guy named Richard Cowan, who has devoted his life literally to legalization of marijuana, on an individual's right, I am an individual so I do whatever they want with their own body kind of libertarianism. Within the context yeah within the organization's history, social issues were not a dominant factor. Admittedly, again, as I indicated earlier, by the late (19)80s and on they had come with the remnant that is still around of what remains of the organization, they did become more of a rallying call.
SM (01:36:52):
Wow. The next question is detailed, broken into many parts. What were some of the issues that upset the Young Americans for Freedom students on a college campus in the (19)60s and (19)70s? How did they protest, how successful were they? And of course, we have already gone over they were upset with what happened at Columbia, Berkeley, Harvard, and Kent State and People's Park and college protests. But what were their tactics? How big were their numbers? Were they successful? Did they fail in areas? Of course, I know these are probably the areas and correct me if I am wrong, you have mentioned in your book that in areas where the left organized teach-ins, campuses being shut down, buildings taken over, classes disrupted, faculty use classrooms to discuss current issues not the material being studied, taking over offices where administration was centered, including presidential offices, faculty uniting with students, not allowing ROTC military recruiting on campus, empowering students to be part of all university decision making if such decisions were linked to the war, research money's coming in for research linked to the war, many church students tried to stop this, bringing controversial speakers to campus who encouraged increased protests and challenging the system. Where was YAFF on these situations and were there times when SDS and YAFF or other liberal groups united toward a cause like Vietnam and the draft? There is a lot involved in this question but...
WT (01:38:37):
Yeah. Okay. Back to how did they react, how did they protest these kinds of activities that were happening starting with the Berkeley and then Columbia and on? A couple different tactics we used, one was the creation of Majority Coalition. That is to try to unite other students and other organizations on campus as much as possible in opposition to the left takeover of the building, to the left's attempt to close down the universities and the violence that was occurring. Probably a good example of that was Columbia in (19)68 and then on. Majority Coalitions were then advocated throughout much of the (19)60s, (19)68, (19)69 period, as the approach to advising YAFF chapter to take. The main thing was "let us unite with whoever is with us for order on campus." And an outgrowth of that came from California, which was the Blue Button Movement and that is to distribute simple buttons were just blue, no words on them, to reflective of order and peace on campus and encourage students to wear those. There was some reaction in the organization to the Majority Coalition approach by saying, "Wait a minute, we are doing all the work why are not we getting any of the credit? We ought to be doing this as the YAFF chapter and not allow ourselves to be sucked into doing all the work for something amorphous like the Majority Coalition." In some places it was the YAFF chapter that actually did do this, organized meetings, had demonstrations, counter demonstrations and things like that. In the book I talk about some of the counter demonstrations at Columbia, at Kent State, at Ohio State and other places. They obviously were in favor of continuing ROTC and military recruiting, Dow Chemical recruiting on campus and expressed positions on that. The draft is an issue that YAFF, from 1966 on wanted to eliminate the draft. Yes, could be some common cause with organizations on the left, not necessarily SDS but other organizations on the left on the position of abolishing the draft. However, as I indicated before, YAFF was for peaceful efforts to get the draft abolished it was not in favor of violence or demonstrations [inaudible].
SM (01:41:37):
There seemed to be something happening in the late (19)70s and it was not disco. There was something happening in the late (19)70s that was leading toward Ronald Reagan being elected president and I think young conservatives were a very important part of this. And maybe it was the conservatives were coming back into power and there was burnout from what had happened previously since John Kennedy became president. Since that election major... This is my perception and correct me if I am wrong, since that election in 1980, major conservative actors rose to power. And organizations like Young America's Foundation, the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, college Republicans have always been there. The Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute seem to become a much more major force in our society. Please give me a list of some of the personalities who begin. Well, you have already done that but is that true? Did they really... Is this their era when they really came to fruition?
WT (01:42:43):
Yes, yes. And I think that not only... Probably started with the 1976 campaign of Reagan to Oppose Gerald Ford to the Republican nomination. And personally I was a delegate to Reagan I was living in Arkansas teaching political science at that time and organized for Reagan in the Republican primary in Arkansas and then got elected to delegate Kansas City. And so many of us, there were, I think in the book I cite there were 85 or 90 Gaff members who were either delegates or alternates to that convention all of whom were pledged to Reagan. And then that built through the 1980 when Reagan was really start, excuse me, starting to be the heir apparent within the party and in his election. And then when then Benning gets [inaudible] and so many of these people were the people who took key staff positions in the administration. And either those who did not do that were involved in some of these extra governmental organization by cited who were after their service there went to Heritage American Enterprise [inaudible] Institute and other places like that.
SM (01:44:17):
Would you say that... I am into this really magic moment period and anything in history. And to me, the rise of Ronald Reagan first came about... I am a young guy and I am watching TV in the fall of (19)63 and I see him for a half hour speaking on national television on black and white TV for Barry Goldwater.
WT (01:44:41):
Yeah. Fall of (19)64.
SM (01:44:43):
Yeah. There was something about that moment I knew there was something happening here.
WT (01:44:49):
Yes, exactly. Exactly.
SM (01:44:51):
He was a great speaker, number one. But it is the way he talked, it is the way he presented I said, there is something going on here.
WT (01:44:58):
And the message.
SM (01:44:59):
Yes.
WT (01:45:00):
And the message was important at that time too. Yes, exactly. That is the impetus of the whole movement for the remainder of the 20th century in many ways.
SM (01:45:11):
Yeah. When President Reagan came to Power East stated, "We are back." What did he mean by that?
WT (01:45:18):
I am sorry.
SM (01:45:19):
He said we are back. Was he talking about...
WT (01:45:23):
Yes. Okay. What did he mean by that? He meant by that the country was back as a force in society and the American people were back. We had come out of the period of Lyndon, of Jimmy Carter and the malaise, the sense of America has limits, we cannot do everything, we have... We're living in an era when American power has to be looked at in a limited and we have to tone down our expectations for the future. And what Reagan was saying "We are back." Meaning that no, that is not the case, that we are still a shining city on a hill, that there is a future, there is optimism and we are still going to be a force for good in the world.
SM (01:46:16):
And then when President Bush came to power, he said, president Bush won, he said the Vietnam syndrome is over. And most people laugh at that because Vietnam is still in all of our discussions on foreign policy. What did he mean by that?
WT (01:46:33):
Well, I think he was hoping that it meant that our role in society and in the world... That first of all that we were not divided domestically anymore and that our role in the world was much stronger than, we could take a more active role in the world. And I agree with what you said, the Vietnam syndrome was not over I think it is still present with much of the boomer generation.
SM (01:47:08):
One of the things and I have interviewed several scholars at conservative think tanks and I remember one person, it will be in his interview, said that I am here because it's hard to survive in a predominantly liberal culture in today's universities. Do you agree with what he said? Many of the scholars, they could be at any university and they can probably be very successful be teachers but because they are conservative scholars or thinkers. It is hard to survive in what they consider a predominantly liberal culture.
WT (01:47:46):
Okay.
SM (01:47:47):
You believe that?
WT (01:47:48):
Let me try to answer this a different way. Number one, I think you have to take into consider consideration individual personalities. Some people who would be conservative in that kind of environment would get a thrill out of it because they want to be different, they want to be the outspoken individual and they might actually thrive in that kind of situation. And I think if you look at a number who are on college campuses, you might find that. I think a Robert Fork or a Judge Scalia would thrive in that because they like being that kind of a person. Others might because of their personality that they are being isolated out, they are not getting the appointment to the right committees, they are not being moved up from associate to full professor, et cetera, et cetera. I think that is more an individual's response to the situation in which they find themselves. Now, as to me personally, if we want to just spend a minute on that, I taught at Arkansas State full-time for three years. I was in an environment that was most hospitable. The chairwoman was a Democrat but I'd say probably a fairly moderate conservative Democrat. The department had 10 members there were probably five of us who voted Republicans so it was [inaudible], that environment I taught as an adjunct and at so what was then called Southwest Texas State University and they brought the southwest Texas State University now, for four years. The chairman, I have no idea what his politics were but he and I got along fine and I got along fine with the other people and I did not feel any animosity there so personally that did not hit home. But I know as you have indicated, there are others who have said that was...
SM (01:50:02):
Yeah. Well, when I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly actually was at the CPAC conference this past year because she was going to be in the Washington DC area and she granted me an hour and I know she was very tired so I really appreciated it and then David Horowitz has been on our campus several times. But in their writings and conversations, they have stated that they think that the troublemakers of the (19)60s and early (19)70s are the people that run today's universities and control many of the academic departments. Do you believe this to be true and if this is true, where is the young Americans for Freedom, the student organizations on campus fighting this? And I emphasize that one of the contributions that many people say that has, of the boomer generation is the fact that in the studies departments at all universities, whether it be gay/lesbian studies, women's studies, holocaust, black studies, peace studies, Asian American studies, Chicano, black studies, women's studies, that this is one of the positives that came out of the boomer generation. And so, there is no question that one of the results of the (19)60s and (19)70s is that these areas became a reality in higher ed. Your thoughts on that is a contribution from the boomer generation and the number two, the troublemakers question.
WT (01:51:35):
Yes, one could say that is a contribution in that period of time and an outgrowth of the first question of the troublemakers being now in charge. And I say contribution not in a positive sense but I think all these are fake studies in many ways and they are so specialized that they do not really belong in a Liberal Arts environment. But yes, they are a contribution of that much of the people from the left in the (19)60s and the (19)70s had went into academic careers, hold many departments and that part of it I think is true. And we [inaudible]. Bernadine Thorn and her husband, Bill, whatever his name is...
SM (01:52:36):
Bill Airs.
WT (01:52:37):
Yeah. Airs, yeah. As classic examples. Angela Davis is teaching on a college campus in California so there's many and many who are less identifiable names were of the left who were all across the country. Part of that I think, is that there was...
SM (01:53:00):
Hold on, can you hold?
(End of Interview)
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Wayne Thorborn
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Thorburn, Wayne J. (Wayne Jacob), 1944- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Politicians—United States; Educators; Authors; Republican Party (U.S. : 1854- )--Texas; Thorburn, Wayne J. (Wayne Jacob), 1944--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Wayne Thorburn is a politician, educator and author. He served as the executive director of the Republican Party of Texas from 1977-1983. He is the author of <em>A Generation Awakes: Young Americans for Freedom and the Creation of the Conservative Movement</em>. Dr. Thorburn is a graduate of Tufts University and Penn State and holds a PhD in political science from the University of Maryland.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-01-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.118a l McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.118b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
220:20
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7483b77fe6836c46fd2e204e7364a7a2.jpg
78742cada5b6d7d40c4a836cba4152ae
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/df8ff4e6d1612c19e2ebb8924a0234ae.mp3
fb908500154eb5fd42b293df6c8b245b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s and 2010s. The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan continues to interview legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. The media player simply features a play/pause button and displays metadata item title/collection as the track/album title.
Date of Interview
2010-08-21
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Walter Naegle
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Walter Naegle is the partner of the late civil rights leader, Bayard Rustin and is executive director of the Bayard Rustin Fund. Naegle has a Bachelor's degree in Studio Art from Fordham University. Decades before gay marriage was an option, Rustin adopted Naegle to formalize their relationship."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Walter Naegle is the partner of the late civil rights leader, Bayard Rustin and is executive director of the Bayard Rustin Fund. Naegle has a Bachelor's degree in Studio Art from Fordham University. Decades before gay marriage was an option, Rustin adopted Naegle to formalize their relationship.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
124:59
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Non-violence; Civil rights movement; Folk music; Joan Baez; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Conscientious objector; Christianity; VISTA; Trust."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588}}">Non-violence; Civil rights movement; Folk music; Joan Baez; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Conscientious objector; Christianity; VISTA; Trust.</span>
Subject LCSH
Rustin, Bayard, 1912-1987;Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Naegle, Walter--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Walter Naegle
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Naegle, Walter ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Rustin, Bayard, 1912-1987;Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Naegle, Walter--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Walter Naegle is the partner of the late civil rights leader, Bayard Rustin and is executive director of the Bayard Rustin Fund. Naegle has a Bachelor's degree in Studio Art from Fordham University. Decades before gay marriage was an option, Rustin adopted Naegle to formalize their relationship.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.92
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
124:59
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3fcd202b5e2cb1545cdfecadb3fe1218.jpg
2e1e8894a71db77117cc9f04179287a2
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/38f5fa805dc15f016ca544313ca0d3ae.mp3
5fa8ad9629736c700c6bd8be20c6be9e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s and 2010s. The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan continues to interview legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. The media player simply features a play/pause button and displays metadata item title/collection as the track/album title.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Wally Nunn
Date of Interview
ND
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
80:31
Biographical Text
Wally Nunn, a former Army helicopter gunner, later became chairman of the Delaware County, PA. He is also the former head of Mid-Atlantic Public Finance Region of Citigroup Global Markets Inc. and former chairman of the Board of the Freedoms Foundation at Valley Forge. Nunn was the founder and leader of the non-profit "The Friends of the Grove."
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Vietnam Veterans; Jane Fonda; Malcolm X; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Berrigan Brothers; Muhammad Ali; Richard Nixon; Lyndon B. Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; George McGovern."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Vietnam Veterans; Jane Fonda; Malcolm X; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Berrigan Brothers; Muhammad Ali; Richard Nixon; Lyndon B. Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; George McGovern.</span>
Subject LCSH
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Citigroup (Firm); Nunn, Wally--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Wally Nunn
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nunn, Wally ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Citigroup (Firm); Nunn, Wally--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Wally Nunn, a former Army helicopter gunner, later became chairman of the Delaware County, PA. He is also the former head of Mid-Atlantic Public Finance Region of Citigroup Global Markets Inc. and former chairman of the Board of the Freedoms Foundation at Valley Forge. Nunn was the founder and leader of the non-profit "The Friends of the Grove."
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.139a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.139b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
80:31
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7df87c2ab888cdd3ec67f59289d86412.jpg
ebeffdbc19ee8c70f9014f97fc206f18
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/11be79a6355f5661aa9e9db8eb3ab242.mp3
8eeeb87c626feac31d716352c8a64208
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s and 2010s. The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan continues to interview legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. The media player simply features a play/pause button and displays metadata item title/collection as the track/album title.
Date of Interview
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"1997-02-15"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15359,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,14281427],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">1997-02-15</span>
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Wally Kennedy
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Reagan Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
103:36
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"American Woman; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Platoon; Catholic Church; Dr. Spock; Ronald Reagan; Healing; Vietnam veterans; Cambodian Campaign; Activism; Civil Rights protest; Ken Burns; Civil War; Empowerment; Parents; College; Birmingham campaign; Ted Turner; Tom Hayden; Jerry Rubin; Timothy Leary."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305}}">American Woman; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Platoon; Catholic Church; Dr. Spock; Ronald Reagan; Healing; Vietnam veterans; Cambodian Campaign; Activism; Civil Rights protest; Ken Burns; Civil War; Empowerment; Parents; College; Birmingham campaign; Ted Turner; Tom Hayden; Jerry Rubin; Timothy Leary.</span>
Subject LCSH
Radio journalists; Kennedy, Wally--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Wally Kennedy
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Kennedy, Wally ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Radio journalists; Kennedy, Wally--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1997-02-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.75a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.75b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-14
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
103:36
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a7b00200acf255c9a97c00f7170e0b82.jpg
8783fbf6c770d20c1ea405a2ffbb7c73
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ec70fd84868024a7fb0210d2ca40e02a.mp3
786bbae4a9e91e46ecfc3ba9841107da
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s and 2010s. The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan continues to interview legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. The media player simply features a play/pause button and displays metadata item title/collection as the track/album title.
Date of Interview
2009-12-14
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
W. Wilson Goode
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Wilson Goode is a former mayor of Philadelphia and he was the first African American to hold in that office. He was a community activist, commissioner for the state Public Utility Commission, and managing director for Philadelphia. He got his Bachelor's degree at Morgan State University. Then graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in the school of the Felts Institute of Government."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Wilson Goode is a former mayor of Philadelphia and was the first African American to hold that office. He was a community activist, commissioner for the state Public Utility Commission, and managing director for Philadelphia. He got his Bachelor's degree at Morgan State University, then graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in the school of the Felts Institute of Government.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Subject LCSH
African American mayors; Mayors--Philadelphia; Goode, W. Wilson--Interviews
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
111:43
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Immorality; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Civil War generation; African American; 9/11; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Vietnam Memorial; segregation; Trust; sexism; democracy; inauguration; Richard Nixon; Philadelphia; Brown v. Board of Education."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Immorality; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Civil War generation; African American; 9/11; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Vietnam Memorial; segregation; Trust; sexism; democracy; inauguration; Richard Nixon; Philadelphia; Brown v. Board of Education.</span>
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with W. Wilson Goode
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Goode, W. Wilson ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
African American mayors; Mayors--Philadelphia; Goode, W. Wilson--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Wilson Goode is a former mayor of Philadelphia and was the first African American to hold that office. He was a community activist, commissioner for the state Public Utility Commission, and managing director for Philadelphia. He got his Bachelor's degree at Morgan State University, then graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in the school of the Felts Institute of Government.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.127a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.127b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
111:43
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/720d17f8efd07001e02b0361ff89d86f.jpg
e2fcc22995a7a2ecdca529aa40f85843
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/58af0198e0506e0f488f9f3d6b8da9c3.mp3
c4eaae83e953462122c1f5c1f92db3a2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s and 2010s. The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan continues to interview legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. The media player simply features a play/pause button and displays metadata item title/collection as the track/album title.
Date of Interview
2010-02-06
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
V. P. (Vincent P.) Franklin, 1947-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the Journal of African American History. He is the author of The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950, Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance, Living Our Stories, Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition, and Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the <em>Journal of African American History</em>. He is the author of <em>The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950</em>, <em>Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance</em>, <em>Living Our Stories</em>, <em>Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition</em>, and <em>Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography</em>. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Penn State University; Harvard; The Young Americans for Freedom; African American student; Black Power; Jackson State; Anti-War Movement; Black Panthers; John Carlos; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Nation of Islam; Richard Nixon; Black capitalism; Ronald Reagan; George H.W. Bush; Vietnam drafts."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Penn State University; Harvard; The Young Americans for Freedom; African American student; Black Power; Jackson State; Anti-War Movement; Black Panthers; John Carlos; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Nation of Islam; Richard Nixon; Black capitalism; Ronald Reagan; George H.W. Bush; Vietnam drafts.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
151:14
Subject LCSH
College teachers; University of California, Riverside; Editors; Authors; Franklin, V. P. (Vincent P.), 1947--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with V.P. Franklin
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Franklin, V. P. (Vincent P.), 1947- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
College teachers; University of California, Riverside; Editors; Authors; Franklin, V. P. (Vincent P.), 1947--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
V.P. Franklin is a distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the <em>Journal of African American History</em>. He is the author of <em>The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950</em>.
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the Journal of African American History. He is the author of The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950, Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance, Living Our Stories, Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition, and Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the <em>Journal of African American History</em>. He is the author of <em>The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950</em>, <em>Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance</em>, <em>Living Our Stories</em>, <em>Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition</em>, and <em>Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography</em>. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago.</span>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-02-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.53a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.53b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-14
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
151:14