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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
An account of the resource
In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2017-2018
Relation
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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Date of Interview
2019-08-30
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dr. Edward Fisher
Year of Graduation
1971
Biographical Text
A Harpur alumn, Dr. Fisher completed his Doctor of Medicine at New York University School of Medicine and his Master of Public Health at Chapel Hill. Dr. Fisher spent the majority of his career as a Professor, educating future doctors and scientists. He came to direct departments in both vascular biology and cardiovascular medicine.
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Interview with Dr. Edward Fisher
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Fisher, Edward; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
Subject
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Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut
Description
An account of the resource
A Harpur alumn, Dr. Fisher completed his Doctor of Medicine at New York University School of Medicine and his Master of Public Health at Chapel Hill. Dr. Fisher spent the majority of his career as a Professor, educating future doctors and scientists. He came to direct departments in both vascular biology and cardiovascular medicine.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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Dr.-Ed-Fisher.mp3
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2019-08-30
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eng
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2019-08-30
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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91:52 minutes
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Oral Histories
Title
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
An account of the resource
In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
Creator
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Irene Gashurov
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-2018
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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Date of Interview
5 July 2019
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jerome "Jerry" Raik and Dr. Barrie Raik
Year of Graduation
1967
Biographical Text
Jerry Raik is director of the Havurah School at Ansche Chesed on the upper west side of Manhattan. At Havurah, elementary school students learn a wide variety of Jewish subjects, primarily through the arts. Before that, Jerry had "the opportunity and good fortune to 'stay home' and be a significant daytime caregiver to each of his three children.<br /><br /><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"A Harpur collecge alumn, Dr. Barrie Raik went on to become a physician. She studied at The New York School of medicine and was emplyed at the Weil College of Medicine through Cornell University as well as Columbia- Presbyterian Med. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":{"1":2,"2":2236962},"15":"Calibri","16":12}">A Harpur college alumn, Dr. Barrie Raik went on to become a physician. She studied at The New York School of medicine and was employed at the Weil College of Medicine through Cornell University as well as Columbia- Presbyterian Med. </span>
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Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
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Subject LCSH
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County.
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Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Interview with Jerome "Jerry" Raik and Dr. Barrie Raik
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Raik, Barrie ; Gashurov, Irene
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Jerry Raik is director of the Havurah School at Ansche Chesed on the upper west side of Manhattan. At Havurah, elementary school students learn a wide variety of Jewish subjects, primarily through the arts. Before that, Jerry had "the opportunity and good fortune to 'stay home' and be a significant daytime caregiver to each of his three children.<br /><br />A Harpur college alumn, Dr. Barrie Raik went on to become a physician. She studied at The New York School of medicine and was employed at the Weil College of Medicine through Cornell University as well as Columbia- Presbyterian Med.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2019-07-05
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Jerry-_-Dr.-Barrie-Raik.mp3
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2019-07-05
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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86:37 minutes
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eng
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Oral Histories
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
An account of the resource
In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Irene Gashurov
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-2018
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2018-01-26
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John F. Spiegel
Year of Graduation
1965
Biographical Text
John Spiegel, PhD, retired in 2015 after a 49-year-career as a student service professional at Nassau Community College. His experience included work as counselor, supervisor, director of Academic Advisement and ultimately, building the college’s Student Services Center.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Subject LCSH
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Alumni Interviews
Interview with: John Spiegel
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 26 January 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
JS: 00:02
Very impressive. [laughter]
IG: 00:03
So please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are.
JS: 00:18
Okay. My name is John Spiegel. I was born on June 11, 1943. Um, some of my classmates knew me as Jack, which was a nickname I acquired in high school, and some of my high school graduate friends who also came to Harpur brought that so some people know me as Jack Spiegel, and where we are in terms of the interview?
IG: 00:46
Yes, physical location.
JS: 00:49
We are sitting in-in my living room at 98 Riverside Drive and in Manhattan, which is on 82nd Street, and it is about 1:45 in the afternoon on January 26.
IG: 01:06
Okay, so just tell me what-what do you do for a living? What is your line of work?
JS: 01:15
Okay, well, I am retired.
IG: 01:18
Yes.
JS: 01:19
I um, I worked, had a career spanning 49 years, retired in September 2015 and I worked as a student service professional for Nassau Community College on Long Island.
JS: 01:39
In various capacities, both as direct counselor, advisor, supervisor of programs, coordinators of offices, and finally, my last incarnation there was as the Director of Academic Advisement in a place that did not have an advisement center, and needed one badly, and I initiated that project and made it come to life, which I am very proud of.
IG: 01:39
Yeah.
IG: 02:09
That is interesting, okay. So maybe tell us, let us go back to your-
JS: 02:15
Sure.
IG: 02:16
-beginnings and tell us where you grew up.
JS: 02:19
I grew up in Inwood, Manhattan. So I am a New York City kid. Inwood is the northernmost community in the island of Manhattan, and that is where I grew up and went-went to high school, Stuyvesant. I commuted to Stuyvesant High School from there and-and that was my, you know, at the age of 18, went, went to Harpur, and never came back to Inwood, except for a few months, maybe to live with my parents when I was between- when I was on a leave of absence from work, traveling.
IG: 02:55
So who were your parents? What did they do? Where did they come from?
JS: 03:01
My parents were Viennese-Jewish refugees--came from initially, they were in England in- from 1938 to 1940 having barely escaped the Nazis in-in-in Austria, my father was actually a political prisoner in the Dachau concentration camp, and was through some political connections, through my aunt in Washington, which are too detailed to go into, you know, at this point where they were able to get him out of the camp, which was before the war, and that at that time, there was still possibilities people were put in there for political reasons, rather than-than just religious. So he would if that did not happen, I would not be sitting here talking today, and my mother was also, you know, Viennese, and she was able to get out, you know, in (19)38 and go to England for two years, and then they emigrated here to the States.
IG: 04:08
And so what do they do in the United States when they came?
JS: 04:13
Right. Well, so my father was a psychiatric social worker. He was trained as a lawyer in-in Austria, but could not practice here, and I think, decided not to pursue the law. I think the war, you know, had a big and prewar had a big influence on-on his career direction. My mother was a seamstress. She would do alterations for- in local tailor shops. And that was, that was her primary. I mean, she did not work full time, but that is how she made money. When she did when she did work.
IG: 04:51
Um, were there, were there expectations for you to go on with your uh, higher education?
JS: 05:01
Oh, absolutely. I mean, there was, there was a clear message. My father was, you know, had achieved Bachelor of Law Degree in Austria, and he was a very educated man. He would constantly let me know how much he knew [laughter] and how much I did not, and but it was clear there was no, there was no alternative that was what was going to happen, which was okay with me, except when I got angry at him, and could use the fact, you know, that I was angry at him, I would use it so I am not going to college. But no, there was no, there was no doubt that that was the track that I was on as to what, where that was going to lead. He never- the one thing I can say for him is that he never put pressure on me to go in a particular direction. You know, his- the message was, you know, you- it is important for you to be educated, which I totally bought into. So.
IG: 06:10
And what were your reasons for going to Harpur?
JS: 06:14
Okay, this- it was not my first choice. Um, I- you know-
IG: 06:24
What was your first choice?
JS: 06:25
My first choice was Oberlin College, and I was not accepted there. My second choice was Colby College in Maine. I was accepted there, but it was apparently not financially feasible. Binghamton was or Binghamton, you know, there was no Binghamton at the time, it was Harpur. I had researched it. I remember sitting in my local public library looking at the catalogs, and I said, this sounds pretty good. And I heard about it. And certainly the cost was very-very appealing. And I convinced my father to drive me up there. So we took a trip, and I liked what I saw. I liked what they had to say. And so this really became a viable alternative for me as a way of going, being able to go away to school, because I did not want to stay home. I needed to get out of there--very badly needed that get away from home. So this, it worked. And once-once I decided to go. My only issue at the time was, you know, when I would say to people, they would ask me, where you going to college? I would say, “Harpur.” They would say, “Harvard.” “No,” I say “No, Harpur, it is, it is an upstate in Binghamton. It is part of the State University.” So there was a lot of that, because it was really pretty much an unknown entity at that time. So there was, that was an interesting sort of things, like, I would come back and see my friends and neighborhood and we would have this conversation. But you know that, you know, I was so enthralled with what was happening there and in terms of what I was learning, you know, that any of that anxiety about the prestige or status of or you know, what exactly this place really was about, you know, all fell away. So this was 1961.
IG: 08:22
Yeah. What was your reputation of Harpur at the time among your friends?
JS: 08:29
And, well, those who knew about it, yeah, those who knew about it said it was, it was difficult to get into. And, you know, I do not remember exactly, you know what-what the average was, but it was pretty clear you needed to have, like, a highs in the 80s or 90 average in high school to get in. It was, I do not think there was an SAT entrance requirement. I think it was pretty much high school average. And you know, that enabled me to. So I knew, I knew it was selective, and certainly because-because the price was so incredibly reasonable that it really became a real alternative for a lot of people. And there were, there must have been 10 or 15 people who went from Stuyvesant to-to Binghamton, you know, to Harpur.
IG: 09:22
Including Ron Bayer.
JS: 09:23
Right.
IG: 09:24
Do you remember what the tuition was?
JS: 09:28
Yes, $162.50 per semester. Is that exact enough?
IG: 09:33
Unbelievable.
JS: 09:35
Yes.
IG: 09:36
So what-what were your first impressions of as-as a city kid coming to a pretty rural environment.
JS: 09:46
Yeah, that is interesting. I often, you know, I talk about the multicultural experience, and it is very-very specific for- to me, um in the sense that I felt like--okay, I am upstate, and I was, I was like, I was a smart lucky city kid, you know. I mean, I do not know if I did not really have an attitude, but I definitely, you know, there was something about, you know, I was sophisticated. I knew it all. And who are these other- who are these Hicks? You know that-that are, that are there. That is embarrassing to talk about, but it is true. That is, that is, that is how I felt. And the other part of it was I felt like I had entered another culture. I was not- they did not know what a bagel was. I would ask for a soda. They would say "What?"--they would call it pop; I believe. And I would say, and then there were a few of those things that were common parts of my language or my- you know, and that they did not know what I was talking about, and I did not know what they were talking about.
IG: 11:05
So is it just cultural references or actual words that were different?
JS: 11:10
A few words were different. I mean, there were things, you know, some like menu items at certain restaurants. I mean, speedies are very big. They are very big in Binghamton, these sort of lamb on a spit that you could go into a bar and get, you know, and they give you a piece of bread, and you would-
IG: 11:30
A kebab.
JS: 11:31
Yeah, but it was called a speedy, and there would be a so- that was different. But I think, you know, sort of the biggest shock was people spoke with a different language, different accent, and we called it the flat and-and I was like, so-so some of my friends, some-some of the guys on my floor and my freshman year, they would say, "Hi, Jan" and-and I would say, I would say "Hi," and it is a, wow, I do not understand. I am only 190 miles away from New York City, and the people talk different. So it was really, you know, so that was, that was, you know, the beginning of my multicultural experience. You know, there, there were, there were kids from farms. There were kids from upstate cities and towns, very smart, but I- my first reaction was, oh, they-they do not know anything. They are dummies. They talk funny. I mean, this is, you know, so part of my educational process was, over my years, there was to get to know a lot of these guys, these folks, and find out that, you know, that was all nonsense and-and there was some incredibly smart, you know, wonderful people, you know, who I looked at like- I mean, I did not spend, you know, as a kid, I did not spend a lot of time out outside of New York, New York City, other than traveling with my parents and, you know, to Canada, maybe, and New England. Anyway, I knew people in Maine spoke differently, because we spent a lot of time in Maine when I was a kid, but-
IG: 13:17
During the summer?
JS: 13:19
During the summer, yeah. So I do not know if that is the kind of thing you are, you are interested in, but that was sort of that with but I refer to that as-as you know, my multicultural experience in college, I mean, most of the students, I mean, I could maybe remember two or three African American students. There was one student from Africa while I was there. There, I do not remember- there may have been students from other countries aside from that, but I- not from, you know, do not come to mind. So anyway, that was, you know, I tell people about that sort of, you know, it felt very much when I thought about it, because you, when you when you hear people from Ohio or Western New York talk. That is they have the flat. I said, Oh yeah, I know that. That is, you know, so we would, we would laugh about that kind of thing and, but just in terms of, there was that clear, you know, upstate versus downstate sort of cultural thing going on, and it was, it was pretty good natured, I would say, for the most part. And you know, they would laugh at us, we would laugh at them. And, you know, and-
IG: 14:30
So, how would they laugh at you?
JS: 14:32
Well, I do not know, you know, it was very subtle, but, you know, it was, it was, it was, you know, it was not that it was like [crosstalk] that, well, no, it was more like, you know, some, you know, these guys are, you know, wise asses and no, know it all and, you know. But I mean, it was not that. It was definitely more our side, the downstate, Westchester, New York City, Long Island attitude towards, you know, it so, it was our own provincialism that was much more dramatic. I think you would not hear it as much expressed, at least in my- in our presence, you know. So, that was a dynamic.
IG: 15:22
What was residential life like? How I mean after-after classes? How would you spend your time in the dormitories? And did you mix with these students from upstate New York?
JS: 15:41
Not, you know, not socially, initially. I mean, there, let me put it this way, the in on the floor, in the dorm, we- there was, you know, there was a sense of belonging to the floor. There was an identity on the floor. One of the things that I think made it more dramatic was the fact that there was a shortage of dorm space, so people were tripled in rooms, and so there was, you know, there was a lot of congestion, but it also forced people to interact. You know, here is an example. One of the people I roomed with was a friend of mine from Stuyvesant, and there was a fellow from upstate in our room, and I liked him a lot more than as it turned out, living with my-my friend who I decided to live with, I- he drove me crazy, and I had and I had to get out of the room and for the next semester. So, you know, that was definitely something but, but we tended to do things, certain things, together as a floor, we would go to basketball games together. The team was especially good that year, and we were very excited. We go to the home game. Sometimes we went into road games, and so there was, there was interaction on the floor. We would visit in each other's rooms and laugh, and the RA would hold floor meetings, and there was a lot of kidding around. And so you know that it did happen in that context. But seemingly, when we went outside of the dorm in terms of who we would spend time with, it tended to be people that we, you know, came from the New York area, at least initially, in the first and when I joined one of the social clubs in my sophomore year. And we had primarily downstate people, but there were a few upstate people, and you know, so there was [crosstalk]
IG: 17:48
So, tell us about the clubs, the social clubs. What were like- which do you- did you belong to?
JS: 17:54
It was Caledonian Society, and I was very attracted to that group of young fellows, and couple of them, one of the things that appealed to me is that they had very couple of very creative people and very funny people, and it was just a lot of fun being with them. And it was really an enjoyable part of my experience there. You know, it is interesting the- you know, I never quite understood the strict guidelines that they had about there. You could not have a house, hazing practices were severely, you know, restricted. There was some hazing, but there was no physical hazing. Um, and uh-
IG: 18:44
So what kind of when you talk about hazing?
JS: 18:48
Well, you know, you they would send you on, you know, trips. They-they would grill you. Sometimes they would make you do, you know, errands, you know, I mean silly things. I think the toughest thing was just find the final night was they, a panel of them grill you and start to accuse you of doing all kinds of things. And, you know-
IG: 19:20
Was it meant to be taken with a grain of salt? Was it meant to be humorous or...?
JS: 19:26
Um, well, I, you know, what I think is they-they had already decided to take me in. So it was that, was that decision is made, but now they just wanted to make me think that they were going to reject me. So it was, it was a little manipulative, but that is as bad as it got. I unfortunately took it very seriously. I thought they would try to kick me out, and I kind of lost it, but so they, you know, they, but so I finally figured I was a little paranoid. So.
IG: 20:00
As-as many city kids are, yeah.
JS: 20:02
So anyway.
IG: 20:03
So what- I am just curious, what kind of things did the social club engage in?
JS: 20:09
Well, they- we had- we participated in intramurals. There was softball. That was flag football. We had; we-we did- had parties off campus parties. It was a social thing. And, you know, dances just with the club, but most of it was just spending time together. And you know the sense of identity you had if you went to a beer blast, which was some of what they called the big events, social events.
IG: 20:48
Downtown?
JS: 20:49
Downtown, off campus, you had a mug that was everybody in a social club had a mug with their name on it and the seal of the social club. And that was a thing about you went to, you know, with the beer mug, and you would spend time with them at the beer blast, and where you would spend time their rooms in the dorm and but it was primarily parties, and it was intramural athletics. I do not remember too much else. Sometimes we saw each other in New York when we came home, but that was rare. So.
IG: 21:29
So-so what- let us see. So, what were- was your experience of academics like at Harpur? What do you remember of that? Do you have memories of faculty?
JS: 21:42
Oh, absolutely.
IG: 21:42
Who made a particularly strong impression on you?
JS: 21:46
Yes, um, I took one of my favorite courses was what they called Soc Sci, which was Social Science 101, and the instructor was Philip Piaker, P, I, A, K, E, R. He was in the accounting department. Now, I thought this was very interesting. The accounting was part of the social science department at that time. It was a real eye opener for me. He was a wonderful instructor. It was a core course, and one of the things that I think that they did very well is all new students had to take this class. So everybody shared the experience, and just in English. So in everyone, everyone, and there was no remedial English, you know, everybody took English 101, and sometimes they have lectures in the auditorium, whatever it was called at that time.
IG: 22:47
Where was the auditorium?
JS: 22:48
It was on the old administration building, which, when you come up the center drive is like a loop. And was on the right, that was the administration building and admin classroom. It was called Classroom Administration Building because the administration was in there and there were classrooms and there was the lecture or the big lecture hall, which was 600 seats, which served as a theater concert hall, was a multi-purpose facility. And so everybody who was taking English 101, which pretty much the whole freshman class would-would pile in there and-and some one of the designated professors would speak, depending on who it was, it became a source of entertainment and maybe a chance to fool around a little bit, whether we were somewhat contemptuous of the way the person spoke or what they were saying. It was a little just slightly disrespectful, not in a very, you know, kind of overt or acting out way. But like with people that, you know, we would like make remarks to each other side by side. Um, one of the things is, you know, I think that somehow it is hard to describe, but the people who went to Harpur and the group that I spent time with, there was a certain sense, a banter, a sense of humor that we share. And when we get together, we-we still, you know, that very much resonates. And one of the things that you know, one of the- my overall impressions there was, there was not a lot of stimulation. It was, you know, Binghamton itself was not-
IG: 24:49
You mean, outside of the classroom?
JS: 24:50
Well, outside the classroom, yeah, I mean, you know, there was the snack bar, that was the big social area and there, and there was not a lot of- was not a lot to do. There was, there were, there were programs, but it was pretty stark.
IG: 25:07
What kind of programs?
JS: 25:09
Well, cultural events, cultural events. And I got involved in that. I was on this convocations committee, sponsoring some of that, with some of the leaders there, but it was a pretty- I call it somewhat of an austere existence, in a way. And I mean, I had a car starting my sophomore year, but there was not really too many, there were not too many places to go for just a change of scene. So it became, you would go to the class, you would go to the library, there would be the snack bar, and then you go back to your dorm. And so it was a sort of repetitiveness about it that was a little, I do not know, kind of psychologically, I think draining in a way. And I cannot think of the right word for it. It was interesting that many years after I graduated, I saw this article about the fact that the southern tier of New York has the most overcast days of any place in the country. And I said to myself, that is why I was so depressed for so often. [laughs] So, you know, there were times, but I think it was more that there was sometimes the existence was a little mundane, and compared to, you know, sort of my expectation of a kind of a rah, rah college life type of experience. Athletics-athletics were de-emphasized, And, you know, so that was, you know, in this so there were, you know, limits on certain social events, like, you know, the fraternities. Not that would have been great to have, you know, physical hazing, but you know the fact that there were limits. I mean, there was a clear message, you were, you were here to do you know you were here to be a student and that, and that is your job. You know which-which is fine. I am just saying that. You know, sometimes I think I was something- I was a little bit surprised. I was I felt academically overwhelmed when I came there.
IG: 27:43
So what courses were you taking?
JS: 27:45
Well, I started, I think I had a theater class my first semester, English, Social Science, trying to think what the others were. Oh, yeah. Oh, I had, I had, oh, this, this is interesting. I was thinking, originally, thinking of majoring in psychology. So I was, I said, well, psychology is in the science department. I do not understand. I had never heard of behavioral psychology. Well, that is what it was. It was behavioral psychology. And I said, well, when do you learn about people, as opposed to having a white rat to run through a skinner box, you know? So that was a little bit, you know, and I was a little bit disappointed in that, in that regard, and I ended up being a political science major, so I was a little bit unprepared for that. I was, I think I was, I was a little bit disappointed. But by the same token, I was very taken by the-the academic rigor and intellectual sort of standing that was and the quality of what was being taught, and the challenge involved in-in-in learning and learning new things.
IG: 29:04
Any classes or professors that stand out?
JS: 29:08
Well, you know, actually, I actually thought that the psychology was very interesting for what it was. It was not my, you know. And I liked the, I liked the professor who was funny, Professor Deane, I think, was the primary instructor for the psychology class. So you would have two lectures a week, I think, and then you have a three-hour lab with a white rat. And I was bitten by the rat once because I was carrying the box and my thumb was sticking through it. But, you know, I survived that, obviously. And so the- I mentioned Professor Piaker, the social science and Professor Deane for psychology, I do not maybe Professor Santangelo was my English 101, instructor. I think that is it, you know, I think that is who it was, and I do not and the theater class, oh, yeah, I do not remember his name. I think it was theater that I because I had to write a play.
IG: 30:14
Really?
JS: 30:16
Yeah.
IG: 30:16
Did you enjoy that?
JS: 30:18
Writing a play? No, [laughs] it was totally beyond me. Um the yeah-yeah, so, I mean, there was some, there was some great, there were some great teachers. You know, definitely great teachers. Okay, so let us see-
IG: 30:36
Do you feel that you got a well-rounded education from Harpur?
JS: 30:42
Absolutely.
IG: 30:42
Yes.
JS: 30:43
Absolutely.
IG: 30:44
Yeah.
JS: 30:46
I, you know, I once counted the number of term papers that I wrote while I was there, and it was 52 and I-I-I had a problem. I mean, I am a good writer. I am, you know, in terms of that respect, you know, writing papers and letters and putting words together, but I took a long time to do things, and I, you know, tended to, you know, drag it out and hand in things late, but I did learn how to do research. I learned, you know, what scholarship is I, you know, I spent a lot of time in the library and, you know, going through sources. And I feel like, I mean, I have a PhD, but I feel like the fundamentals of academic rigor and how I approached learning and research were-were definitely found-
IG: 31:56
S
IG: 31:56
Scholarly research?
JS: 31:57
Yes, one of the things that one big message that always came through was the notion of the scientific method in in social science research, and the difference between facts and values and facts and value judgments, something that does not seem to matter much these days, but, you know, I always, you know, kept that in mind, and it was one of the clear things that I took away from the place. You know, I just want to mention that I used to say to myself, you know, I have been in class. It was- I would get back there for a semester, you know, it has been, I would say some one week into classes, but I am three weeks behind. I say to myself, how did that happen? In terms of the assignments? That is what it felt like. It was very-very demanding. It was several years later, after I graduated, I said, you know, they worked our asses off there. I said, what, you know? What was going on? What was going on? Well, I found out that the educational model was from the University of Chicago, and they decided they were going to export that model and-and bring it to Harpur. And, you know, they basically, I felt like we were going to throw a lot of work at these people. And let us you know, let us see what happens. Whoever makes it, makes it, and if you do not, you flunk out. And one of my criticisms that I do not think, at least from my perspective, I was not prepared to, in order, in order to be like an A student, I would have had to bury myself in the library. And some of my friends did, and they got and they but, you know, they were comfortable doing it. I was, I could. I had trouble dealing with the demand and the demand of the work there, and it was very- it was frustrating me, and I was a good student in high school to the get there, and suddenly, from being an A student to being a C plus B minus student, I was, like, shocked. I did not understand how did this happen. How did I get stupid? And so [crosstalk]
IG: 34:34
-is such an excellent school.
JS: 34:35
Yeah-yeah, of course. So that was, that was a bit of, that was a bit of a shock to me and but I was critical of, you know, at-at the of the amount of work. And, you know, in some ways I was, you know, I was, I think I was unprepared for the level of knowledge that I thought that they expected of us. I mean, like, for example, I remembered a philosophy course, I do not, I do not want to sound negative, I am telling you, you know, for me, it is a primarily a good experience, but there were negatives to it. You know, do not like to be critical, but the philosophy course was pretty abstract. The instructor was pretty well-known person. He threw using an extensive amount of Latin terms as part of his explanation, a priori, a posteriori, you know, ipso facto. And, my god, am I supposed to know what all of this is? And how do I, you know, how do I find out? How do I- okay, well, there was no internet yet. I was, fortunately, after, you know, a little while, I went to the bookstore, you know, if I said I got to figure something out, and I was able to get this book called The Dictionary of Foreign Terms, and it saved my life. But it was that, it was that kind of thing. I said, "Wow, I do not know what he is talking about," how and there is no primer here, what you know, it was, you know? So I think that there was, there were great teachers, but maybe not so much paying attention to what was happening with the students and their-their ability to-
IG: 36:38
Comprehend?
JS: 36:38
-yeah, to comprehend and absorb. You know, what was taking place.
IG: 36:42
What just explained to us, what is the, what was the University of Chicago model that you followed? Is it a great books core, liberal arts core?
JS: 36:51
It is probably liberal arts, but I think it was the core curriculum was a big part of it. And I, you know, I mean, I, my sense is, first of, you know, the caricature of University of Chicago is one of extreme academic rigor and not much else going on there. I mean, it is a beautiful campus, but that this, you know, the students do not have a lot of fun. [laughs] That is, that is, that is, you know. So it was like it was the amount of material. And so, you know, we are going to throw this at you, and you know, and you know, if you make it, that is good, and if you do not, you flunk out, you know, too bad. So you know that there so in terms of support for people who might have been having difficulty, there was a little, I do not think there was much concern about that. Anyway.
IG: 37:41
This was a time when social mores were beginning to change. How did you and your friends respond to the pressures of your day, of the day?
JS: 38:05
Well, you know, I was thinking about that because I had a feeling that question might come up. Uh, there used to, you know, we were right on the cusp of some of that change. The girls had curfew, to be back in the dorm by 10:30 at night. It seemed bizarre to me, you know, you would be sitting in the snack bar and they would be running out to go back to the dorm on Saturday nights. I think it was maybe one o'clock, I do not know. So that was, you know, and they had, they had a couple of very mature women who were-
IG: 38:48
RAs?
JS: 38:49
No, they were like the residence hall directors, but they were, they were like, they were not young, trained people. They were more like, you know, matrons. And there was a Mom Hardy and the Mom something they called the mom Hardy, you know, it was 1961 and one of them, you know, was, like, very stern, and, you know, sternly she was projecting, protecting their virginity of the student of the women there. And, you know, they- so we had a, you know, this kind of an attitude about them, you know, that is just, this is so silly, but, you know, so I think we came in with, like, I do not, I do not get this kind of level of- it just, it seemed archaic, okay, but in terms of our own experience, there were regulations about dress. So, you know, you were not allowed to wear shorts to go to the, to go to the resident, to go to the, you know, the dining room.
IG: 40:01
And classes probably/
JS: 40:02
Well, not, you know, people did not talk about that, but, you know, a bunch of us would get together and say, "What is this nonsense?" In fact, I think there were. I think you-you also, I am not certain about this, but let us stick with the shorts, because that is a part of it. And so bunch of us started talking, said, "We do not like this. This is ridiculous. Why cannot we wear shorts?" So we had, like, a protest, and we decided we were going to we- and these women were in charge of monitoring, you know, the entrance to the dining hall. And one day, like a couple of 100 people just show up in shorts, and let us say, let us, let us see what they do, you know. And they ended, they just caved at that point, because it was like, you know. So, you know, it was like, it was like, the first time that I actually participated in some kind of social action, you know. And although with an unlimited scale.
IG: 41:01
How did it feel?
JS: 41:03
Oh, this was great. I mean, I, you know, there was a little bit of risk, I mean, to it, you know, but we did not know what was going to happen, if, you know, they made a stand and but it was kind of like the tide had had turned. And then, you know, when you think about, I mean, what are they going to make an issue? How big of an issue are they going to make about, you know, men wearing shorts, you know, so that, that you know, that was done at that point. Um-
IG: 41:40
What other activism, if any, were you engaged in on campus?
JS: 41:45
Well, one-one was a bit risky. There was, there were stories about the campus physician being having alcohol in his breath when he saw students, and at the time, I was on the student government I think maybe I was a sophomore. I had run for student government representative, and I was, I was either designated or volunteered, or both, to investigate this, and started talking to people, interviewing people, students, and there would, you know, there were, there were reports of multiple, you know, incidents of this. And I was called in. I guess word got out. I was called in by the Dean of Students and confronted about this and threatened. And I do not remember what he threatened me with, but I think he tried to scare me about, you know, that I was messing with was something that was quite dangerous, and somebody's reputation, yada-yada, you know, I do not remember the details of it, and I, you know, I backed off. I figured, you know, I-I am out here pretty much, you know, on my own in a kind of, you know, dangerous, you know, neighborhood. And, you know, I was a little bit concerned I want, because I wanted to be an RA, and I was a little bit concerned also about, what is this going to do to my reputation, if I am going to be perceived as a troublemaker? So I backed off. So that was an individual thing. The other thing that was going on so 1964 fast forward to the Berkeley Free Speech Movement. And so in terms of my own involvement, we had a sympathy demonstration on the quad. We held up signs supporting the members of the Free Speech Movement, and we stayed out there for an hour or something. I was sponsored by our own student government, so that was participating, you know, in that kind of thing, there was a lot of more serious activism on the campus that I was less familiar with, some of the there was an attempt to sign up students to do voter registration in the south. And in fact, they may have even been efforts to get people to participate in the Freedom Rides. And that was an area that I was just too anxious to, you know, felt like was extremely dangerous and would was not comfortable doing that. And there were some people who activists and doing things, and I think more locally, and Binghamton volunteer involvement and, and, you know, but I was not my, my primary act activity. He was in student government trying to make the student life better for the people-
IG: 45:06
On a local-
JS: 45:07
Yeah, on the campus,
IG: 45:09
Do you remember JFK's assassination?
JS: 45:11
Oh, my God, yes. I can see it in my mind coming out of class, and people are gathered around portable radios and listening, and, you know, President has been shot, and I was like, "Oh my God. “And, you know, within half an hour, you know, it was over from the time, what am I- overtime. And one of them, you know, life changing, devastating time I was, I remember that I remember getting the Sunday New York Times afterward, and reading it in-in my dorm room, and just being totally, you know, such a state of shock and grief about-about the whole thing, you know, because at the time, you know, he was, we very much identified with the youth and energy of this, of this guy, and, you know, refreshing note that he-he brought. And so that was a pretty, pretty horrible moment. And, you know, not being thrilled with who the new president was, and so without really knowing much about him, but just the way he contrasts with the way he presented himself. And I could not, could not relate to his way of-of communicating.
IG: 46:41
What about the Vietnam War? Was there already fear of being drafted and or was that really-
JS: 46:52
Um, okay. You know, the dates and when things occurred, you know, I know it was August of (19)64 that the Tonkin Gulf incident occurred. I do not know if you know my- I understood that that was a very dangerous situation, but it did not come home to me in terms of what this meant, or possibly could mean. There was a new professor in the Political Science Department who had the word was out. He was sort of more conservative, and maybe had been in the CIA or had some kind of background, and that do not remember his name, he was pretty new, you know, he was presented, you know, or so. The word was, it was that he was maybe more conservative than the rest of the faculty, and he made a projection at that point, he- I remember this specifically by such and such a date, a year from now, they are going to be 100,000 US troops. In two years, they are going to be 200,000 and he just sort of like, and I remember sitting there with a bunch, and this was part of his talk about, I think it was about Vietnam, but it may have been more the national defense posture. But I remember, you know, turning to other people say, you know, he is it really, "It cannot be true, right? It is not. He is just, there is just no way that that is going to happen, right?" And sure enough, it all happened. But I remember that was my first sort of like wake-up call, that this something could happen. And then, you know, I think in (19)65 people started to be drafted, and more and more people, and I, I was very nervous about keeping my student deferment. And so I went, you know, I mean, I decided at that point I am going to go to if I can go to graduate school. Let me go to graduate school, because I did not like what was, what was happening.
IG: 49:13
So, where did you go to graduate school?
JS: 49:16
I went to SUNY Albany for my master's in student services.
IG: 49:20
Yeah
JS: 49:20
And it was there for a year. And then, you know, when I finished in September of (19)66 I got the position immediately at Nassau.
IG: 49:28
And when did you do your PhD?
JS: 49:35
I got my- earned my PhD in 1986 from St John's University in counselor education.
IG: 49:41
Oh, it is interesting. What other political events impacted you?
JS: 49:51
While I was a student, or...?
IG: 49:56
You were a student while you were a student, the Bay of Pigs, the failed invasion of Cuba, um-
JS: 50:04
What was date of the Bay of Pigs? Was what (19)62? You know-
IG: 50:13
Was there fear of Soviet Russia?
JS: 50:18
Well, you know the, um- okay, we are maybe talking about the Cuban, Miss Cuban Missile Crisis. You know, that is interesting. Now, in that situation, we knew some bad things were going on, but we, you know now, if you can imagine this situation at that particular time, there was one television on the whole campus. I mean, one television in the student center, in a room that could seat maybe 40-50, people tops standing room would be 60, which is, by the way, as an aside, was the first time we had ever seen the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan Show. It was packed like sardine cans, and it was hysterical. It was like, but you know, it, I felt like the Cuban Missile Crisis was a little bit more remote. I remember being very involved in my studies, and I did not really, I was not really familiar with, sort of the day to day, you know, significance of what was going on. And it was, there were, you know, there were, you know, you heard about things, you know, maybe you saw things, but it was not something that was being talked about, you know, as in the sense that, you know, we were all, you know, there could be a nuclear war, and we could all be gone. I mean, I mean, I mean, I, we grew up with that. It was just another-another one of those episodes this, I mean, more serious, but I was, it did not feel that different from some of the other, you know, the duck and cover drills and, you know, I mean, Kennedy, you know, ran for president on the idea of the missile gap, you know that, and the Russians and their-their missiles, and so I am glad I did not know, you know, my subsequent reading, and you know about it like it was- we were pretty close to a disaster. So anyway, so that so that was, I was not as affected by that, but I would say during my senior year when, you know, I think the Vietnam thing started to become a little bit more dicey. I was very anxious about what was going to happen. And, you know, because my because my own life, in terms of direction, was pretty unclear at that point, I did not have a clear career choice, and it was like, "Oh, my God," you know.
IG: 53:15
Did you feel, did you feel support from your fellow students, because they were experiencing the same anxieties?
JS: 53:28
You know, we did not talk about it much. I think I do not, I do not recall that it was, in some ways, it was not a reality. You know, we were focused on graduating, finishing, getting out of there and applying to graduate school. That was, you know, a lot of, what are you going to do next? And also, you know, the-the sense of, of, oh my god, this, you know, this experience, this pivotal experience in my life, is going to be over. So there was, there was also some loss that was there. And, you know, my all, I mean, these people who your friends and you, you know, you were very close to your they we
re not going to be in your life as much as they were. And I mean, that kind of change was also very- it was, it was scary. It was, it was, it was upsetting.
IG: 54:27
Did you stay in touch with any of your classmates?
JS: 54:31
Absolutely. It is about half a dozen people from Harpur that I see on a regular basis, and we are very close, and-
IG: 54:49
That is very nice.
JS: 54:50
Yeah, oh no. It is, you know, it is something that we share and-and then some of them have networks with other friends of people. I know I do not see them that often, but I you know, I ask about them and what this-
IG: 55:06
What lessons did you learn from this time in your life? Do you think?
JS: 55:14
Well, I have a tremendous respect for knowledge and learning in the truth and um, I, the fact that I learned how to-to write and communicate both verbally and verbally and in writing, and I take a lot of pride in being able to do that. And there is one other thing, so just ask me the question again,
IG: 55:57
So what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? What were the major [inaudible]
JS: 56:00
Okay, so, well, I would say, among other things, if you, you know, you-you really, if you really want to know what is going on, you have to work very hard to find out. You-you know, truth is a hard thing to get at, and it takes a lot of work to find out what the truth is. You know, I am a history lover, so I spend a lot of time trying to do that, and so I enjoy that a lot. Um-
IG: 56:50
Have you pursued your interest in history over the-
JS: 56:53
Absolutely, yeah.
IG: 56:54
Through reading?
JS: 56:55
For reading, from reading. I am in a Lifelong Learning Program now, and you know, I have done some work on some history presentations for them. This [crosstalk]
IG: 57:05
Lifelong Learning Program through-
JS: 57:08
Actually, it is City College called Quest program, once for adult-adult-
IG: 57:13
Wonderful.
JS: 57:14
And the other thing I did not mention there, I did a lot of theater there at Harpur, and it was one of the things I really loved doing. And after, and I did some community theater after I left on Long Island.
IG: 57:31
As an actor, not as a play writer?
JS: 57:32
As an actor. Oh, yeah, not as a play writer. No, I am not a creative writing is not my thing, but-but I would say, and, but now this, this being at this Lifelong Learning thing, has allowed me to get back into it. Because they do, they do Theatrical presentations. They do, you know, we do readings and, you know, there is a show every year, and-
IG: 57:55
Sounds wonderful.
JS: 57:56
Yeah. So that is, you know, it has allowed me to re-experience some of the joy that was, some of some of the most joyful moments. Our senior, the senior show at in 1965 was Guys and Dolls and sometimes and people still call me by my- the member of the cast-
IG: 58:19
You playing?
JS: 58:20
Julie. [laughter] So they still say, you know, "There is Big Julie" I mean, it is funny, but that was, you know, that was a, I was a key moment. And I almost did not graduate because I was so busy, you know, with the show, that I-I would still remember that my political science teacher, I got a D in that it was the only D I ever got. He says, "This is a gift." And I said, "Thank you very much, because my parents are coming to graduation," you know. But so, you know, I know. I sometimes tell people that, in many respects, what I majored in college life, but that is sort of what I did. You know, with my in my career, I did, I did love the college experience. It was, it was, there was a lot of vitality in it. And that is what I-I gravitated to, and I ended up spending, you know, my whole life working with college students. And you know that part of the- you know, the educational experience and wanting to make it as dynamic and interesting and challenging as possible. Um-
IG: 59:40
What words of advice would you like to leave for maybe students now and for future generations of students listening to these tapes?
JS: 59:51
So we are talking about Binghamton students. Are we talking about students?
IG: 59:55
Binghamton students? But it could be more general.
Third speaker 59:58
Or whoever is going to listen this interview?
JS: 1:00:03
Yes, okay, well, oh, my god, daunting. Let me think for a second. Well, I really, I believe in the notion of academic challenge and that it is, you know, even though I cannot say that, I did not practice this, but I- you know, looking for the easy way out is never the good idea is never a good idea. Take something. Take a class that you do not know that much about. Challenge yourself. You know, it is, it can change you. It can make you a better person. Do not just, do not just do things that you are comfortable with, because you are going to lose a lot. You are going to regret a lot, and that is what I mean I used to when I work with students. I would always- we, you know, one of the courses that was offered at Nassau Community College was a speech class, and we did not have a public speaking. We did not have a public speaking at Harpur. But I always say, this is, this is a very important skill. And, you know, it is, it will really help you in your life. And lot of people would be anxious about it, but I just wanted to plant the seed that this is a, this is a good idea. So I think another thing I would attach to that is, you know, the importance of me being able to communicate, both verbally and in writing, but also to-to push yourself into academic areas that you might not be that comfortable with. I mean, you do not want to take it on, to have it be so difficult that it is going to be overwhelming. Where you are, you are going to be so anxious that you cannot function. But how important it is to challenge yourself academically and intellectually. I guess [crosstalk]
IG: 1:02:28
You have done that throughout your life?
JS: 1:02:32
For the most part. [laughs] I mean, I have not say, you know, I mean, I have not taken, you know, foreign-foreign languages, where I have thought about it, but I guess I just have not been that motivated in that. But I think, you know, I-I-I try to, I try to learn new things if I can, you know, I mean, if I am interested in and just to-to expand my knowledge, and I just find it, it is, it is very interesting. It is very it I
s a good way to live.
IG: 1:03:09
Any concluding remarks.
JS: 1:03:12
Well, I do not know. Concluding remarks, well, you know, I am a little bit out of touch with what it is like to be a student now at Binghamton. I have not been there in about 20 years. I know it is very different. I mean, when we, when I started my there were perhaps less than 1200 students. There was a very small school, everybody you know, kind of knew each other. So I am sure it is very different in character now. But you know, I think something that I feel very strongly about is even though I was, and this is interesting, I was not a shining academic student, you know, in terms of performing, you know, well in terms of what grades, but I learned a lot, and I learned how to learn, and it was, it was all worth it. It was, it was, I mean, it was a tremendously academically challenging place. And despite the fact that I had difficulties, so much has stayed with me in terms of my learning, some of the courses I took, some of the doors that were, you know, were open to me, particularly in-in history, which has become a passion of mine. And you know, it just had a tremendous amount of meaning to me, and I hope that other people will feel the same way, you know, as they move through their lives.
IG: 1:05:09
Thank you very much.
JS: 1:05:13
You are very welcome.
IG: 1:05:17
Thank you. It is a good interview.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with John (“Jack”) F. Spiegel
Subject
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Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City
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Spiegel, John F. ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
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John Spiegel, PhD, retired in 2015 after a 49-year-career as a student service professional at Nassau Community College. His experience included work as counselor, supervisor, director of Academic Advisement and ultimately, building the college’s Student Services Center.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2018-01-26
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In Copyright
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eng
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John Spiegel.mp3
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2018-01-26
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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65:19 minutes
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Oral Histories
Title
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
An account of the resource
In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
Creator
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2018-02-23
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Adrienne W. Weissman
Year of Graduation
1964
Biographical Text
Adrienne is a retired New York City school teacher.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City
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Subject LCSH
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City
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Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Adrienne Weissman
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 23 February 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
IG: 00:01
Okay, Hello. This is Irene and Adrienne Weissman, and it is Friday, February 23 at 11 o'clock. And Adrian, I would like you to introduce yourself and tell us your name, your age, and where we are and what we are doing.
AW: 00:25
Okay? My name is Adrienne Wolfson Weissman. Um, I am 75 years old, and we are in my apartment in Manhattan, and intend to discuss life at Binghamton University when it was not Binghamton University in the 1960s.
IG: 00:51
Okay, thank you. So where did you grow up?
AW: 00:57
I grew up on Long Island in Franklin Square, and then in North Whitney. And before that, I lived in Brooklyn. Before I went to Franklin Square, started, I guess, the fourth grade in Long Island.
IG: 01:17
So, you were born in Brooklyn?
AW: 01:19
Uh, yeah.
IG: 01:19
As was I.
AW: 01:22
Most people were. [laughter]
IG: 01:24
Most people were.
AW: 01:25
Yeah.
IG: 01:26
I agree. So, who were your parents? Who were your parents? What did they do? Where were they from?
AW: 01:34
My parents were born in Brooklyn. My father was a CPA, a lawyer and a college professor.
IG: 01:45
Where did he teach?
AW: 01:47
At Queensborough Community College, he taught law and trying to think what- accounting and my mother was a school teacher in Renton square.
IG: 02:04
I see okay, and were they just give us an idea, you know, first, second, third generation-
AW: 02:11
College?
IG: 02:13
No Americans.
AW: 02:15
Oh. My mother's mother was born here. My father's mother and father came over from Russia in 1917.
IG: 02:29
Do you know where?
AW: 02:35
Actually, I somewhere- I have the manifest from the ship that they took over, and I looked it up online, and-
IG: 02:45
That is so interesting, because, you know, it is my background, that is my background as well. And so, I know a lot about the different immigrations. And so, they came right during the revolution.
AW: 03:00
Yes.
IG: 03:01
Do you know if they lived in in Russia itself, or in Ukraine, or what was then known as the Russian Empire?
AW: 03:10
I do not know.
IG: 03:11
You do not know.
AW: 03:11
No.
IG: 03:12
Well, that is okay.
AW: 03:13
They came with their oldest son, and then they had five more children.
IG: 03:19
Five more children, and they-they came to New York City?
AW: 03:23
Yeah, they lived on, I guess, various places in Brooklyn. But when I knew them, they were living on Easton Parkway.
AW: 03:24
Okay, I know where that is.
AW: 03:30
Yeah.
IG: 03:31
Okay, so, you know, I would assume that your parents expected you to go to college since they were very educated themselves.
AW: 03:44
Yes, yeah, it was never, it was never a question. It was-
IG: 03:49
It was never a question.
AW: 03:50
No.
IG: 03:51
So, education was valued in your family. Were you the only child?
AW: 03:59
No, I have. I had two sisters; one is deceased. All three of us went to college.
IG: 04:07
All three. So, you know, tell us, what were your reasons for going to Harpur College? Why did you choose that above others?
AW: 04:21
I wanted to get away from home. My parents wanted me to go to Queens College or Douglas College, which is part of Rutgers, and I was accepted at both, but I really- my parents were very strict, and I wanted more freedom.
IG: 04:49
Wanted more freedom.
AW: 04:51
And they allowed me to apply there, and I got in. I never saw the school before I got up there. It was not like it is now, where the kids go to all these different schools and take tours and everything. I never saw the campus until I arrived.
IG: 05:15
But you probably heard that it had a certain reputation. Then draw you. That drew you-
AW: 05:16
[crosstalk] the only state school that did not have teacher education courses. It was a liberal arts college.
IG: 05:31
And that is why you wanted.
AW: 05:32
And I wanted for that.
IG: 05:34
Were you on scholarship? Did you get a regional scholarship-
AW: 05:36
Yes.
IG: 05:36
-or anything?
AW: 05:37
Yeah, regional scholarship.
IG: 05:39
So did that factor into your decision?
AW: 05:42
No. I- my parents both worked. We were not the only families with two cars back then, and we lived in a private house. So, I do not, I do not think money was a real issue.
IG: 05:57
Right.
AW: 05:58
So.
IG: 05:59
Right. So, you never saw a campus before arriving.
AW: 06:08
No, most of my friends had not either.
IG: 06:11
And most of your friends had not either. What-what was- what were- do you remember some of your first impressions of this very different kind of place, because it must have been a lot more rural than Long Island at the time, or?
AW: 06:30
I do not remember noticing that much about the surrounding area.
IG: 06:35
Right.
AW: 06:35
It was more the fact that I was going to be sharing a room. I had my own bedroom at home, and now I was sharing a room at the college. Was not a very large room, and we did have contact with roommates before we went up, we were told who our roommate would be, so we were able to coordinate. Did we want the same bed spreads, things like that? I remember that, and I remember meeting everybody. We did not really have the kind of orientations that they do now, because I remember when I went up for my daughter's orientation, they did role playing to see what it would be like to be away from your family for the first time, things like that, and I do not remember doing anything like that.
IG: 07:39
So, did you have an easy or difficult adjustment?
AW: 07:45
I was so thrilled to be away that it was a pretty easy adjustment back then, you know, no cell phones or anything. So, I would call home on Sunday uh, every week, and that was my only contact, really, with my parents, was the-the weekly phone call.
IG: 08:10
Did you miss them very much? Or were you too excited to-
AW: 08:14
I was excited [crosstalk]
IG: 08:15
You were excited, you were not-
IG: 08:17
I was not.
IG: 08:18
-to aware of being homesick.
AW: 08:20
No.
IG: 08:20
Okay, so-so [crosstalk]
AW: 08:21
[crosstalk] people who were and some people, I remember, dropped out and went back home because they really could not handle being away. They did not want to be away.
IG: 08:34
Were these people- do you think there was, I hear from others, a separation between town and gown, and there were people from the City and Long Island, and then there were students from upstate-
AW: 08:51
Yeah.
IG: 08:52
-so, they had, there was a little bit of a cultural difference, from what I understand.
AW: 08:56
There was a cultural difference also because some of them had never met a Jewish person before, and mostly the kids from upstate.
IG: 09:08
Right.
AW: 09:09
And I remember talking to one of the girls, and she said to me, she really thought that Jews had horns because she did not know anything about Jewish people.
IG: 09:23
Were you insulted?
AW: 09:26
I think I was fascinated that, because, you know, you grow up in Brooklyn and you do not have any kind of feeling that you are different or anything like that. I did have that kind of feeling when on Long Island, because we moved to an area where the older homes were German owned, and then the new, the new development, and there was some prejudice there, but I was just, you know, how could you have been college age and never have met a Jewish person. It just-
IG: 10:03
Or even more to imagine that they have horns. I mean, she was this person. Was saying this in jest.
AW: 10:12
Sort of, yeah, but-but she had never talked to a Jewish person before. So.
IG: 10:21
Have you ever talked to a person from, you know, a very rural upstate environment? What-
AW: 10:35
Probably not.
IG: 10:36
Yeah.
AW: 10:37
I-I knew, just cosmopolitan.
IG: 10:43
Right.
AW: 10:44
I mean, I went into Manhattan by myself from Long Island and used a library in Manhattan, things like that. But I do not think I ever met anybody from upstate either. [crosstalk] What I found strange, was that some of the people I met from upstate, they had just gotten indoor plumbing. You know, they lived on a farm, and they had outhouses and things like that, which was so far away from anything I knew.
IG: 11:23
So, you know, it was very different. It was very different and, but I-I would imagine that in time, you found some commonalities with-with these people, or did-
AW: 11:35
Yeah, we were all studying.
IG: 11:37
You were all studying and-and somehow, you know, the differences may be leveled, were leveled out.
AW: 11:45
Yeah-yeah. It is funny, because my husband and I just took a trip to Florida--road trip, and on the way back, I got together with somebody who had lived on my floor at Harpur and I had not seen her since Harpur and she was from upstate, I guess, Syracuse area maybe, and she struck me as very small town at the time, and we got together with her for dinner. And, you know, she has got a PhD. She was teaching at the University of North Carolina you know. And when she was at Harpur, she was known because she had been a cheerleader in high school, you know. So, Harpur changed us, I think.
IG: 12:46
It sounds very much like it did. So, you know what-what was your experience of I mean, there were many questions. What was your experience of academics at Harpur, when you, when you, you said that you wanted to get a liberal art a solid liberal arts education? Did you have any notions, any ideas of where this liberal arts education would take you?
AW: 13:15
I think that I always intended to be a school teacher.
IG: 13:19
Yeah, like your mother?
AW: 13:20
Yeah-yeah, or a librarian, you know, that type of thing. And, um, uh, so I sort of had a goal. I knew that I would go to graduate school to-to do the uh the teacher education part of it. And just, you know, I-I did not realize how hard it would be, because I did very well in high school. But then when I got up there, I realized everybody there did very well in high school. It was not. I mean, everybody was valedictorian, so yeah, and I found the that I did not. I had not really learned in-in high school how to write a paper or anything. I had to learn that at Harpur
IG: 14:24
And so, did you take? What kind of courses did you take? Did you take English creative- probably there was not creative [crosstalk]
AW: 14:29
Well, I majored in Spanish and French and minored in English. So, I took a lot of literature courses, Spanish language, French language. And then we had a lot of basic courses that we had to take back then
IG: 14:52
Like what, for example?
AW: 14:54
History 101, geology um, music, because I noticed when my daughter went that there were many more courses that were not requirements. You know, like their history course was "A History of the Future," which was, I thought, a strange title for a course, but that is we had, you know, 101, 102, 103, 104 for a lot of the courses. So, you ended up with four semesters of history and science requirement and all kinds of things.
IG: 15:43
So, are there any courses that stand out? Any-any professors that stand out in your memory as being exceptional?
AW: 15:53
Yeah, I remember Dr. Locke, who was my I think he was my French professor, and he was good.
IG: 15:56
Why was he good? Because he was an adapted at teaching language or literature or?
AW: 16:14
Well, he was fun. We did a lot of conversational skits up in the front of the room, and he was-
IG: 16:26
So, you were conversant in French?
AW: 16:29
Not really.
IG: 16:30
Not really.
AW: 16:31
Because it was taught with a lab. You know, it was not done the way it is now. So, I knew grammar and vocabulary, but not really-
IG: 16:45
It was more for reading. It was more for reading. It was more- Um, so you liked his course. What were the history courses? You know, did you learn American history? Did you learn a world history? Or was it-
AW: 17:00
World history.
IG: 17:01
World history.
AW: 17:01
I remember the final for the World History. One of the essay questions was, trace the role of the papacy from like 1500 to the 1900s?
IG: 17:18
That is so interesting. I mean, it is so, it is so, you know, out of your field of-of-
AW: 17:25
Right. And, but all encompassing, but-
IG: 17:28
It is all encompassing, yeah, it really, I think, you know, it gives you a certain kind of overview world of Western a Western European history. Um, so, did you study American history? Do you- I mean, you, you were studying in what years, in the-
AW: 17:54
(19)60 to (19)64.
IG: 17:56
To (19)64 so, you know, Vietnam was in the air, and people were concerned about draft.
AW: 18:08
[crosstalk] anything about it, except the- there was a group that were protesting that type of thing. But I do not remember-
IG: 18:21
Student activists.
AW: 18:22
Yeah, yeah.
IG: 18:23
Did they protest on campus? Did they go march on Washington? Do you remember?
AW: 18:32
No, I do not think. I was not really a part of all that.
IG: 18:38
What about with, you know, your fellow I mean, classmates were they-did they talk about-
AW: 18:45
I dated-
IG: 18:46
-the draft.
AW: 18:47
I dated one guy who happens to be a professor at Columbia now. Oh, well, Ronald Bayer, B, A, Y, E, R.
IG: 18:57
I interviewed him.
AW: 18:58
Oh, you did. I went out with him.
IG: 19:02
He is very impressive.
AW: 19:04
Yes.
IG: 19:04
He is very smart.
AW: 19:06
He is married.
AW: 19:06
Yes.
IG: 19:06
I am sorry [inaudible]
LW: 19:12
We- I met a few times, and so lost touch. She also lost touch with him.
AW: 19:17
He lives up here.
IG: 19:18
I know, yeah, I mean, I interviewed him, yeah. He was, yeah-yeah. I interviewed him. That is- it really is a small world, yeah. So he was, he was very much, you know, politically active, yes.
LW: 19:32
[crosstalk] Chicago [inaudible]
AW: 19:36
And he, in fact, I remember-
IG: 19:39
That is so interesting. [laughs]
AW: 19:40
He was very, he was very impressed, he had met Eleanor Roosevelt.
IG: 19:44
Yeah. He mentioned Eleanor Roosevelt, yeah. So-so outside of, you know, you were really not kind of, were you- were there any- um, political issues that were particularly close to you, or were you just focused on your academics, do you think?
AW: 20:07
I was focused on social life and-
IG: 20:10
Social life.
AW: 20:11
Yeah, and academics.
IG: 20:12
Okay, so what was social life like? I mean, you studied very hard, but there was a residential life. Did you participate in that?
AW: 20:21
Mm-hmm. Yeah, what I remembered most is this disparity between what the boys were allowed to do and what the girls were allowed to do.
IG: 20:32
Okay, so tell us about these restrictions on your- on the freedom of girls.
AW: 20:37
The girls had a 10:30 curfew during the week, and the boys did not.
IG: 20:45
Do they have any curfew?
AW: 20:46
I think they did, but it was much later than what the girls had. The boys could live off campus after their sophomore year. The girls could never live off campus.
IG: 21:01
Could you have boys in your dormitory rooms in your-
AW: 21:08
Not-not that in the beginning, but by our senior year, yes, and there was the rule was four feet on the floor, and the door had to be open. And when my daughter went, of course, it was co-ed-
IG: 21:23
Yeah, of course.
AW: 21:24
And yeah, very-very different.
IG: 21:26
So, did you mind these restrictions? Did you think about them, or did you just excite them?
AW: 21:31
I accepted them. When I think back now, why did not we question it? But no, we did not, yeah, we did not even question for Sunday dinner. We were not allowed to wear pants. You know, it was pretty cold, right? And we had to wear a skirt or a dress to Sunday dinner. And we just accepted everything. We did not protest anything.
IG: 21:58
Right. So, you know, I am just thinking, were there any sororities that you belong to? Did you- I mean, how did you spend your free time you dated, Ron Bayer but-
AW: 22:18
I do not remember um there being sororities when I was there. The boys had social clubs that ranked them, but it is possible that there were, but I was not in that type thing. I hung out mainly with the people who lived on my floor. I am still friendly with the two girls who lived across the hall from me. We get together, you know, with the husbands and everything we see them.
IG: 22:55
Could you mention their names?
AW: 22:57
Sure, Harriet and Stu Rubin. They both went to Harpur and Grace Hirschdorf was her maiden name. Now it is Grace Rinsler. She and her husband live in New Jersey and Harriet and Stu live in Columbia, Maryland.
IG: 23:19
Maybe these are people I can visit in the future. We will see.
AW: 23:22
We get together with [crosstalk]
IG: 23:25
That is very nice.
AW: 23:27
My roommate, Judy Castanea, who lives here in Manhattan.
IG: 23:31
Okay.
AW: 23:32
Who I see?
IG: 23:33
You see her? Oh, you see her. So how do you recall those years when you get together with your friends?
AW: 23:41
I do not know that we really talk about just the- what I have discussed with them is the randomness of our being friends. If they had not lived right across the hall from me and had lived in a different dorm or something, I probably would not be friendly with them. It was just circumstance, but it has endured all these years.
IG: 24:09
Yeah, so it was a fortunate circumstance.
AW: 24:11
Yes, yeah.
IG: 24:12
So, you know, how would these friends remember you? What would they say about you back then? How would they describe you? Do you think?
AW: 24:28
Wild a little bit wild, I guess.
IG: 24:30
How were you wild?
AW: 24:31
Sexually.
IG: 24:32
Okay.
AW: 24:33
You know, I was feeling my oats, because I, as I said, my parents were very strict.
IG: 24:40
Yeah.
AW: 24:40
I had to account for everywhere I was when I was not in the house-
IG: 24:45
Yeah.
AW: 24:46
-and feeling my oats.
IG: 24:52
Yeah-yeah.
AW: 24:53
I mean, I remained a virgin, but everything else was-
IG: 24:57
Okay within-within this [inaudible] kind of a restrictive environment, you so-so where did you go out with, you know, your friends or your boyfriend?
AW: 25:10
Went to Binghamton.
IG: 25:11
Yeah. What was that like?
AW: 25:13
We- there was a bus, yeah, that took us right campus, right into Binghamton.
IG: 25:19
Yeah.
AW: 25:19
And we would go to the movies, or we would go out to dinner. I did not have much money. My allowance was $7.50 a week-
IG: 25:30
Yeah.
AW: 25:30
-from home, and I got a job in the post office on campus to make some extra money. [her husband talks] What? Oh, yeah. Oh, another friend that Alan Zublat, who lives in New Jersey, oh, we remain friendly all those years too.
IG: 25:54
So-so you, you know, how did you- you had this job in the post office. You would go to Binghamton. You know, were you- did you feel happy? Did you feel supported during those years? Or there were periods of questioning? I mean, tell us about your sort of emotional arc during those four years, and how uh, you noticed that you were changing?
AW: 26:26
No, I do not remember changing.
IG: 26:29
You do not remember changing?
AW: 26:30
No. I mean, I have felt that I was being exposed to things that I had not known about before. I had not listened to classical music before, and then I took a course there. So, I realized I liked classical music.
IG: 26:50
Did you, did you listen to it in the library, or did you listen to- was there-
AW: 26:57
In the class.
IG: 26:58
In the class, and listen to the club in the classical music rather than, you know, going to a language lab or, you know, sometimes the music lab.
AW: 27:07
No, we listened to it in class. And I remember I had to write a paper, and I got an A on the paper, and I was thrilled. It was on Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, and I tied in the choral section of it with the rest of the symphony. So, I guess that meant something to me, because I still remember.
IG: 27:35
Yeah-yeah. So, you do not, you do not think that, you know this kind of that it, that it was that it sounds like it was an enlarging experience.
AW: 27:46
Yeah [crosstalk]
IG: 27:48
Do not you think that was changing? I guess it did not change your essence, but it changed kind of-
AW: 27:57
Well, my-my liking of things, my knowledge certainly.
IG: 28:03
Yeah. So-so I am just thinking about um, the external world, outside of outside of Binghamton. You know, what were some of the events-- Kennedy's assassination-
AW: 28:21
That-that, you know it is one of these, you remember where you were.
IG: 28:26
Yes-yes.
AW: 28:27
It was, well, it was the day before my birthday. And a group of us went out the next night for my birthday because we had planned it, and I remember we were just so depressed and unhappy about what had happened, even though we were out. We went to a restaurant; we just sort of sat there.
IG: 28:54
Were you afraid after that?
AW: 28:56
Initially, yes, we were in the cafeteria and they were announcing over the loudspeaker. You know what was happening.
AW: 28:57
Over the loudspeaker?
AW: 28:57
Yes, in the cafeteria.
AW: 29:05
Who was announcing? Do you remember? Was it [crosstalk]
AW: 29:18
[crosstalk] radio or TV announcement may have been Walter Winchell [inaudible] I mean, Walter Cronkite, yeah, Walter Cronkite announcing the President is dead. And I remember we were all sitting there just we could not believe it, and we were concerned about what would happen next.
IG: 29:45
Right. You know, was there any conjecture about what that next would be?
AW: 29:52
I do not remember.
IG: 29:55
You do not remember.
AW: 29:55
No. I remember the first time I heard about it. Somebody on campus had a convertible, and they had the radio blaring, and I wondered why there was a crowd around the car. And when I walked over, they said the President had been shot. And then I just remember being in the cafeteria listening to what was going on.
IG: 30:29
So let us just think of you know, you were not really involved in student activists direct- activism directly. Were outside of Ronald Bayer, were any of your women friends involved in politics? Or did they talk about it?
AW: 30:55
I-I do not remember them talking about it. We were concerned about writing a paper.
IG: 31:06
I see.
AW: 31:07
You know, school work and social stuff.
IG: 31:11
And social stuff. So, you know, the women rights movement happened really, much later in the early (19)70s, you were not really touched by it.
AW: 31:14
No.
IG: 31:15
But you were touched by it because you said that you were sexually experimenting, or, well, [crosstalk] you were sexually this was the early (19)60s. So-so, you know, so what was it? Was it the youth movement that was, that affected you? Was it rock and roll? Did you listen to that? Or what do you think, what do you think, kind of, because it was, you know, a different time than the kind of strait laced (19)50s I would think, or the time of your parents, you know, they-
AW: 32:00
Yeah, to me, it was just, you know, it was getting away from home, and, you know, I dated a little bit when I was in high school, but I guess I was ready to experiment a little bit.
IG: 32:20
So, what-what lessons do you think that you learned from this time in your life? What- how did this open your eyes to yourself and to the world?
AW: 32:38
Hmm. I do not know that it did. I did not, I did not become interested in politics and the world until much later, after, I guess, after I met him.
IG: 33:06
And because so tell me about him and how you met.
AW: 33:11
We- he was avoiding the Vietnam War.
IG: 33:14
I see.
AW: 33:15
And he was teaching.
IG: 33:17
And when was that? When did that take place?
AW: 33:19
(19)68.
IG: 33:20
I see.
AW: 33:22
He was teaching in Bedford Stuyvesant as was I.
IG: 33:25
So, you went back to Brooklyn after graduating?
AW: 33:29
Uh, not to live. I lived in Queens.
AW: 33:33
Where?
AW: 33:33
Briarwood and I moved back home and went to graduate school at Hofstra, and my parents were not happy having me home. My father was controller for a real estate company, and he got me an apartment, a studio apartment in Brooklyn. I mean, in Queens in Briarwood, and I taught first on Long Island, Plain Edge, right for a couple of years, and then I got a job in Brooklyn, in Bed-Stuy. And I met Lou there.
IG: 34:14
Right. So, you said, you know that your eyes to the bigger world opened as a result of this meeting so.
AW: 34:24
Well, he-he is left of center, yes and-and cares a lot about what is going on in the world. And by osmosis, I became more aware of what was going on and cared more.
AW: 34:43
So-so did you said-
AW: 34:46
But I did not at college.
IG: 34:47
You did not at college?
AW: 34:49
No.
IG: 34:49
You did not at college.
AW: 34:50
It was not- here was a very small group, yeah, that was active. You know, Ronnie Bayer and his friends. And I was on the fringe of that, the rest of us-
IG: 35:04
But you do not remember that he talked to you about any of this or what-
AW: 35:05
Yes, of course he did.
IG: 35:06
So what-what do you remember anything that he would tell you, or that he was involved in, or what the feelings were, and what were your reactions to them, or you did not really-
AW: 35:21
I listened, and I certainly did not disagree with him.
IG: 35:28
Right. So, did he go against your ideals?
AW: 35:31
No. I mean, my-my parents were very liberal.
IG: 35:37
I see, I did not know.
AW: 35:38
And my father would tell me that during the (19)30s, he was almost considered the communists, things like that. And they were always Liberal Democrats, yeah, my family. So, you know.
IG: 35:56
So really you came from that [inaudible] year you came from [crosstalk]
AW: 35:58
Yeah, and I did not really think about it, because it was just part of my DNA, I guess liberal in my thinking, and I did date somebody at Binghamton who was a Republican.
IG: 36:19
And what was that like?
AW: 36:22
Uh, my parents- my father was very upset about it. He said, you know, "How can you?" I said, "Well, we do not discuss politics."
AW: 36:32
[crosstalk] from Bronx.
IG: 36:32
Right-right-right. And did he also come from a New York City Long Island, or was from-
IG: 36:36
From Bronx. Yeah.
AW: 36:40
And Jewish yeah and but a staunch Republican.
IG: 36:46
Yeah, well.
AW: 36:48
And we were pinned you know, like to be engaged and his parents-he brought me to meet his parents, and I guess I was too outspoken, because he eventually broke up with me and said that his parents did not approve me. So that so that ended.
IG: 37:17
Yeah. Was that-that probably was disappointing at first, and then maybe a relief or?
AW: 37:25
Well, you know, I moved on.
IG: 37:27
You moved on.
AW: 37:27
Yeah.
IG: 37:28
You moved on. You moved on. So-so tell me about your life, production trajectory after Harpur College. So, you met your husband in the late (19)60s.
AW: 37:43
We got married. We went cross country in the summer of (19)68.
IG: 37:49
Yeah.
AW: 37:50
After knowing him for a couple of months.
IG: 37:52
Yeah.
AW: 37:53
We drove cross country and we got married in Las Vegas on the way back.
IG: 37:57
Wow.
AW: 37:58
And [Adrienne's husband speaks]
IG: 38:01
What?
LW: 38:03
[inaudible]
IG: 38:03
[laughs]
AW: 38:06
And we will be married 50 years.
IG: 38:10
That is wonderful.
AW: 38:11
Yeah.
IG: 38:12
So have you- did you live, did you continue living in the broughs or-
AW: 38:22
Well, we lived in Briarwood. Um, because after we got married, my father got us a one-bedroom apartment. And then a few years later, when I had my first child, we got a two-bedroom apartment. And then we moved to South Brunswick, New Jersey, and we were there seven years, and he could not stand the commute because he was working at the Board of Ed.
IG: 38:52
Yeah, that is a hard commute-
AW: 38:53
To downtown Brooklyn.
IG: 38:54
In downtown Brooklyn.
AW: 38:56
Yeah. And so, we moved to Staten Island.
IG: 39:00
I see.
AW: 39:01
And we were there for 37 years.
IG: 39:03
Oh, wow.
AW: 39:05
And I hated every minute of it.
IG: 39:07
Yeah, you hated every minute, yeah, I am surprised. I am surprised that you moved there, but yeah, you know, it makes sense, because of the commute.
AW: 39:14
And the schools were decent for girls to go to. And then we, five years ago, we sold the house.
AW: 39:24
Right.
AW: 39:25
And we bought in a retirement community in Monroe Township, which is right near right Brunswick.
IG: 39:35
Right.
AW: 39:36
So, you cannot go home again.
IG: 39:38
Yeah-yeah.
AW: 39:39
Yeah.
IG: 39:41
So, you know, you know, so tell-tell us about, you know, looking back on, you know, your-your life, what-what do you what do you have to really, what were some of the more important lessons you have learned in your life that you would like to share with future generations of students listening what is important as they go through their studies as they think about what, what course of study to take, course of you know, in their life to take. What are some [crosstalk]
AW: 40:33
I firmly believe in the liberal arts education, rather than learning a trade. I think it is important to broaden your horizons, so to speak. And then, in fact, both my daughters had liberal arts educations, and then for graduate school went on to do a specific thing.
IG: 41:05
So, tell me. Tell me which family members went to Binghamton University.
AW: 41:11
My- both my daughters went to Binghamton and my older daughter went on for an MBA from George Washington University, and my younger daughter went on for a master's in Hotel and Restaurant Management at University of Massachusetts, and my son in law became an attorney, and his sister is a CPA.
IG: 41:48
I see, I know you said that your grandchildren are considering Binghamton as well [crosstalk]
AW: 41:53
My grandson who is fifteen is considering Binghamton, so.
IG: 41:58
Right. You know, looking back at that experience, what do you think that Harpur College gave you?
AW: 42:08
It opened my eyes to various disciplines, I guess, that I was not aware of, like music and better understanding of history, things like that, but to me, the relationships I made there-
IG: 42:28
Are most important.
AW: 42:30
-are the most important, yeah.
IG: 42:35
So, you know, when you meet with your former classmates, you do not really talk about Harpur. You talk about [crosstalk]
AW: 42:41
We do, we do yeah.
IG: 42:44
So, what kind of things do you remember?
AW: 42:47
People reminisce about the restrictions on us as women back then and the fun we had will if we find out about one of the classmates, you know "Oh, I ran into so and so, went to Harpur with us. You know that that type of thing.
IG: 43:17
I am very curious to know if you have any photographs of yourself from that time?
AW: 43:24
Yeah, I do close at hand. No, in a box.
IG: 43:28
Okay, no, do not worry about it. So do you think that your generations experience sort of, you know, you were in between. You were on the very beginning of the stage of the 60s, and you know all of this. But there was ferment there-there that-that was-
AW: 43:55
Just starting.
IG: 43:55
Just starting.
AW: 43:55
Just stating.
IG: 43:57
And how, but how do you think that you are this even, even this experience, even this big generations experience shaped your sort of responses to the world today? Do you think?
AW: 44:13
I think I think that the way I was brought up had more to do with it-
IG: 44:24
More to do with it.
AW: 44:25
Yeah, then-then Harpur, because I was not part of the activist group.
IG: 44:34
Right. Well, it is not only the activists. So-so what was your education at home--your very liberal minded education at home um, teach you what were some of the lessons that you know-
AW: 44:51
Tolerance.
IG: 44:52
Tolerance.
AW: 44:58
I do not really know. It was just, it was always there, you know, voting for Hubert Humphrey.
IG: 45:06
Right-right.
AW: 45:08
Disparaging things that were not liberal in thinking it was just, I grew up with it. I did not give it a lot of thought.
IG: 45:26
You did not give it a lot of thought. What do you-
AW: 45:27
The people that I was friendly with at Harpur felt the way I did.
IG: 45:34
Did-did your professors feel the same way that you did? Did you feel, you know-
AW: 45:40
I do not think that-that they were opinionated that way.
IG: 45:45
They were not.
AW: 45:46
They focused on teaching the particular subject, and they did not digress into their process-
IG: 45:55
Even-even the history professors?
AW: 45:57
I do not remember them doing it.
IG: 45:59
I see. Okay, so do you have any outstanding memories, you know, a very, a very positive memory that you would like to share from your time at Harpur. What were some of the happiest memories?
AW: 46:21
Uh, on Friday nights, we would go to the theater on campus to see serial movies that were fun. I cannot remember that, but I remember, you know, with Shazam, I do not remember what-what the character was, but it was a regular thing on Friday nights that we went to the movies. I remember the theater group putting on wonderful shows, musicals-
IG: 46:59
Campus theater group?
AW: 47:01
Yeah-yeah.
IG: 47:03
There is still a very, a very strong theater department.
AW: 47:07
Oh, there is?
IG: 47:07
Yes. Oh, very much. So, in fact, well, this is not about me. This is about you. Well, I am I am interested. I am interested. I am taking a course in playwriting, which I-I really, really enjoy.
AW: 47:21
There was one guy I was friendly with, Tony Manionis. I have no idea where he is now, but I remember them doing on the town.
IG: 47:30
Yeah-yeah-yeah.
AW: 47:31
It was great.
IG: 47:34
It was great. So-so that is how- these are the positive experience. Any-any-any, anything that-that was any I do not want to conclude on this note, but I am just wondering, anything that really stands out in your memory is something that you did not like about this college experience.
IG: 48:05
No.
AW: 48:05
No.
AW: 48:05
No.
IG: 48:07
It was all very positive.
AW: 48:09
Yeah, well, the weather-
IG: 48:10
The weather, the weather you did not like.
AW: 48:12
Yeah. I remember-
IG: 48:14
Wearing skirts on Sundays.
AW: 48:16
Yeah, eventually they did away with that. But I just remember lots of snow, and cold.
IG: 48:22
Yeah, it is still, it is still like that.
AW: 48:24
Yeah. And, you know, we did not have- if I came with a clock radio, a portable typewriter, it was a lot. When my kids went, you know, it was a microwave, this and that, you know it was sort of very basic living.
IG: 48:45
Yeah. So do you have any- I am just wondering- so you went back to Binghamton a number of times since graduating. And how did you notice that the you know, campus was changing apart from your kids bringing more appliances?
AW: 49:12
Well, [inaudible] co-ed. They were living in like a suite with a lot of common area, rooms, and as my husband said, I walked around like I was a tourist for the seeing the big city for the first time. "Oh my God, look what they built."
IG: 49:34
So, the campus has had really expanded. You go back when-when- what were the years that you went back?
LW: 49:43
Let us see our daughter was born (19)71. And she was 18-
IG: 49:49
Right.
LW: 49:50
-when we first went back.
IG: 49:52
So, in the late, late (19)80s.
AW: 49:54
Yeah, first, and then four years later, when her sister went.
IG: 49:59
Yeah. So. The Campus must have really transformed.
AW: 50:03
It exploded.
IG: 50:04
It exploded.
AW: 50:05
Yeah.
IG: 50:05
It exploded.
AW: 50:06
When we were there. We had one--we had a little post office, and we had the cafeteria. We had the science building; we had the library. I mean, you know, pretty basic. There were no tennis courts or things like that. But, uh-
IG: 50:29
Did you use a library when you were there a lot?
AW: 50:32
Yes-yes. Yeah, well, I did not have a computer or anything like that. So, research was done in a book-
IG: 50:41
In a book. I remember, I remember. So, any you know outstanding memories that you would like to share with us, anything that you would like to add, any concluding remarks about this very important experience in your life.
AW: 50:59
We used to line up for dinner, down the steps and around and the dessert was always lime jell O. So, I remember that.
LW: 51:14
That a favorable memory? [laughs]
AW: 51:16
No, I just remember that,
IG: 51:18
Yeah, lime jell O.
AW: 51:19
And I remember when the parents came up for Parents Weekend, they would give us a wonderful dinner, and like pretend that this is what they served us all the time.
IG: 51:19
So, what was a wonderful dinner? Do you remember, and how did that differ from your everyday meal?
AW: 51:40
There is no salad bar. There was no, I mean, the food, rice, whatever was there that night. And there were no choices. The food was not wonderful.
IG: 51:51
The food, the food was, what meatloaf and potatoes, that kind of thing.
AW: 51:57
Yeah, I think so.
IG: 51:58
So, there was no ethnic food. There was no health food to speak of,
AW: 52:05
No-no.
IG: 52:05
Nothing like that.
AW: 52:06
And we did not question that either.
IG: 52:10
You did not question that either.
AW: 52:12
We questioned nothing.
IG: 52:14
But now you but, but then you learned, as a result of meeting your husband, you learned to question a lot more.
AW: 52:21
Yeah.
IG: 52:22
And for example, what, what kind of things would you question? I am just, I mean, this is not about your Harpur, but what, what did you learn to question?
AW: 52:30
The-the way the world is, you know. Um, who our elected officials are, you know, things like that.
IG: 52:44
Okay, so do you have anything to add to say to people listening to this tape, future college students? Advice.
AW: 53:01
Enjoy those four years, because you can work after that for many, many years.
IG: 53:06
Yeah.
AW: 53:07
I mean, I taught for 27 years.
IG: 53:11
You taught which grades?
AW: 53:13
Uh, eighth grade, junior high school, English, all that time, I retired in 2001.
IG: 53:23
And your husband retired. He was also for the Board of Ed.
AW: 53:30
No.
LW: 53:30
Well-
AW: 53:31
No, he had a lot of different jobs.
LW: 53:33
I worked for the city, New York City, a variety of different jobs for 32 years, and then I retired from that until the job of not for profit. Oh, and did that for 11 years.
AW: 53:45
All financial jobs.
LW: 53:47
And I retired in 2011--for real.
IG: 53:54
Yeah, for real, for real. Okay, so-
LW: 53:58
[inaudible]
IG: 53:58
Yeah.
LW: 54:00
I think what you what she got out of school, to some degree, is lifetime friends. It is lifetime friends and relationships.
IG: 54:07
Yeah, I get that.
LW: 54:09
That, um, is something that students that should be aware of and should relish.
IG: 54:19
Yes, I think so. I think so.
AW: 54:23
Because he has, he has been pulled into those [inaudible] too.
LW: 54:28
That Binghamton does provide. I am guessing 85 to 90 percent of the students at Binghamton are from the state.
IG: 54:36
Yes-yes.
LW: 54:38
So, there is a maintain some type of proximity within the geographic area, as opposed to Virginia or Michigan, North Carolina-
IG: 54:47
Right-right.
LW: 54:47
-that you can maintain relationships with people in lifetime, friends, which she has done probably more than most people.
IG: 54:56
Yeah. Well, anything-anything left to add? [inaudible]
AW: 55:06
No.
IG: 55:07
No-no, well. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your thoughts and your time. Okay, so this is- please introduce yourself.
LW: 55:18
Louis Weissman, Adrienne Weissman, Adrienne Wolfen Weissman's husband, guess, pushing 50 years sitting here listening to the interview that she was doing as a graduate of Binghamton, which I am not, sorry that I probably was not, but I am not, anyway, Adrian, I have been talking, you know, obviously the shooting in Florida has led to a lot of discussions, and the students, the high school students that have hopefully beginning what will be a long term, permanent movement of protesting and effecting change, which I believe that the college students in the (19)60s really led the movement, the anti-war movement, led the civil rights, the women's movement, and it changed things. And hopefully that the students in high school now who are being directly affected by the shootings that are going on gun issues will have the same impact long term, I hope. Although, given the politics in this country at the moment, I am not always sure that the movement is going to be in the right direction. So, you would not we have a president who wants to arm teachers rather than regulate and limit guns. But-
AW: 56:37
I did not want to be armed.
LW: 56:39
-but, so I so I am not sure, but I really am. Maybe for the first time since the shootings in Columbine and Sandy Hook, that I am [inaudible] getting a little bit hopeful that maybe these kids will lead a movement that will change things.
AW: 56:54
He said after Sandy Hook, nothing is going to change.
LW: 56:57
So now-
IG: 57:00
But just if you could repeat, you know, and what you said about the difference between your generation in the you know, your your class,
LW: 57:10
Oh, the period of time?
IG: 57:11
In the (19)60s, and Adrienne's.
LW: 57:14
Adrienne graduate, what was in Harpur College from (19)60 to (19)64 I entered college in (19)68.
AW: 57:24
No, you graduated-
LW: 57:27
-in (19)68 so I started in 64 when she graduated. Um, she was in school at the beginning of the changes that were occurring in terms of civil rights, anti-war, women's movement that was just beginning then, and I think took much greater hold the second half of the (19)60s into the early (19)70s, not only in terms of the movements, but in terms of the impact music had, protest music had, which is interesting enough. Sandra and I do not share the same music tastes of the (19)60s. You know, I also remember, I also think the second half of the (19)60s had much more of a drug element to it than the first half of the (19)60s did, somewhat influenced by the music and and-and the people in it.
AW: 58:22
[crosstalk] was very into the protests.
LW: 58:24
-and the protests were much more visible and much larger, sometimes more violent than they needed to be, but nevertheless became part of the culture because became part of shaping college students, who I think in many cases, still keep the same values that they had then, in terms of an openness, acceptance of people, and make you sort of had a still had a foot in the (19)50s, at that point, to a greater degree than I did who was in school four years later.
IG: 59:10
Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Just a few more minutes. Okay, so, what did you say?
LW: 59:20
She says slept of through the (19)60s in terms of music. I am not sure [inaudible] Nash and so on so forth. I guess the folk protest songs, yeah.
IG: 59:37
[crosstalk] Mary
LW: 59:40
Judy Collins, those types of things.
AW: 59:43
That I learned from Ronnie Bayer.
LW: 59:45
[crosstalk] the Beatles were an influence, but I think the music was an integral part of the second half of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, much more so than the Doo Wop stuff from the (19)50s into the early (19)60s. You know, listen to Sirius radio in the (19)60s. And some of the stuff I just cannot stand listening to some stuff in the (19)50s is unlisted from Frankie Avalon and [inaudible] pop singers. So, I really think that the music did have a major influence in the second half of the (19)60s, much more so than the first half, and helped shape the thinking and the views of a generation.
AW: 1:00:35
So, you got to marry someone younger than you.
IG: 1:00:41
Well, thank you very much. Thanks.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Adrienne W. Weissman
Subject
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Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City
Description
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Adrienne is a retired New York City school teacher.
Date
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2018-02-23
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Weissman, Adrienne W. ; Gashurov, Irene
Format
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audio/mp3
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
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Adrienne Weissman.mp3
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2018-02-23
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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60:42 minutes
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2018-03-09
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Arthur Cooper and Nancy Cooper
Year of Graduation
1963 and 1966
Biographical Text
Arthur Cooper is a writer, self-employed. Art started out working for Gale publishing, but he made his name as a direct mail writer.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area
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Subject LCSH
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area
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Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Arthur and Nancy Cooper
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 9 March 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
IG: 00:00
Interview. So for the purposes of the interview, please state your names, that when you were born, when you went to Harpur, the years that you went to Harpur, and when we and where we are at present.
AC: 00:19
My name is Arthur Cooper. I was born on February 9, 1943 in Brooklyn, New York. I went to Harpur in 1959 graduated in (19)63. What is the other question?
IG: 00:37
Where we are physically.
AC: 00:38
And we are physically in my apartment in Manhattan, 79 West 12th Street, and it is March, 11.
NC: 00:47
Wrong.
AC: 00:48
March 9, 2017.
NC: 00:51
Nope.
IG: 00:52
2018.
AC: 00:54
2018. Oh, okay. And Franklin D. Roosevelt is president of the United States.
NC: 01:00
Count backwards by seven from 100. Go ahead. Oh, Jesus.
IG: 01:03
And what we're doing?
AC: 01:05
And we are having an interview for some Harpur Oral History Project.
IG: 01:09
Yes.
NC: 01:10
My name is Nancy Thompson Cooper. I was born on January 11, 1945 in Manhattan, New York, and went to Harpur in September of 1962 graduated in June of 1966 and we are in our apartment at 79 West Hill Street getting interviewed.
IG: 01:31
Okay, very good. So I would like to know where you grew up and who your parents were, whether your parents went to college.
NC: 01:44
My mother went- Okay. I grew up in Greenwich Village in New York. I grew up on the borderline of Greenwich Village in Chelsea, so I had an interesting life. It was interesting as a kid, but I went to Catholic school, which was very confining.
IG: 01:59
Yes.
NC: 02:00
Also not very smart. The teachers were not so smart. They were not well-educated women. I had fun anyway, and somehow, I got into Harpur. I always thought I was the last person in my class to be accepted. I was on the waiting list because I got in on July 6, but I did find out that somebody else got in in August, on August 29 so I felt better. I was not the last person let in. My father was a display man at Abraham and Strauss department store in Brooklyn. My mother was a New York City public school teacher. She did go to college, graduated from Hunter in 1928 and how I ended up at Harpur, I do not know, but I feel so happy that I did. We could afford it for one thing, and Catholic schools kept giving me unasked full scholarships, and I did not want to go there, and I did not, had not even applied there, but they would call our- the school would say, and the nuns would call me and say, "Hey, want to go to Our Lady of the bleeding blood." I do not know, whatever they would call them. "No, I do not." I want at the time, I thought I would end up in Syracuse, and they warned me that Syracuse girls do not wear bathrobes in the hallway. And this is scandalous. It was scandalous. But anyway, be that as it may, I finally got into Harpur. And I was very pleased. Everybody was pleased, especially money wise, because in those days, if you had a regent scholarship, it covered all your tuition.
IG: 03:37
Right.
NC: 03:37
The whole, the whole thing,
IG: 03:39
Yeah.
NC: 03:39
And-
IG: 03:40
Room and board as well?
AC: 03:41
No.
NC: 03:41
No-no, just-just your tuition. My final two years that I was there, I was what they called something, a dorm resident, dorm counselor. Other places had other names for it, which paid all your room and half your board. And I think it cost my parents $279 a semester to send me to college, which was holy crap, really. It was a- I still worked. I worked all the time there. I was a waitress. I was a- I babysat. I worked in a coffee shop. I worked often anyway.
IG: 04:20
So-so, I mean, that is so interesting on so many fronts, not-not least that you grew up in Chelsea and the village at the time that you did, but we're the focus for now is on Harpur College. So why did you- so were there are expectations for you of going on to college from in your family?
NC: 04:44
Oh, yeah, yes.
IG: 04:45
Yeah, because-
NC: 04:47
My mother had gone to college, but she was the only one in both sides of the family who had ever gone to college. You know, my father had had not gone, and he had four sisters who did not go. And you know, nobody else did. She just lucked out.
IG: 05:03
Right.
NC: 05:03
Too long a story, but she did luck out. And so it was expected that, and I expected to go to college.
NC: 05:11
I was an only child.
IG: 05:11
You were the only child. And what-what was the reputation of Harpur College at the time?
IG: 05:11
Were you the only-
NC: 05:18
I knew nothing.
IG: 05:19
You knew- So why did you decide on that rather than-
NC: 05:22
[crosstalk] had a daughter, Ellen, who went to Harpur College and told her about it.
IG: 05:26
Yeah.
NC: 05:27
When I finally met Ellen [inaudible], I said [making a sound] that she was, she belonged to, there were not sororities, but there were things like that.
IG: 05:35
Right.
NC: 05:35
And she belonged to one of those things.
IG: 05:37
Right.
AC: 05:38
See, now she is going to be in this oral history, and-
NC: 05:40
I use her name.
AC: 05:42
Used her name.
IG: 05:44
I do not know her, but we know we may not ever get to-
AC: 05:48
But you have insulted a Harpur student just now.
NC: 05:52
[crosstalk] to insult our Harpur students.
AC: 05:54
Oh! Okay.
NC: 05:55
Back it up. No, it was just she was a very different person than I was and I was she wore skirts, and I never did. I have not since, but sorry, I insulted another person. But anyway, no, I did nothing about it, except that it was not a Teacher's College, and I did not want to go to a Teacher's College, pretty much. And I did know this, that Harpur was the, just about the only liberal arts school, I think just around that time, Buffalo and Albany were becoming more liberal arts, but every other state school was teachers. And not that I did not become a teacher, which I did at some point, but I did not want to just focus on one thing that is all. Is that all?
IG: 06:46
Yeah, or-for now, that is fine. All right, so-so you, it is your turn. So where did you grow up?
AC: 06:56
I was born and bred in Brooklyn, yes, of kind of far out towards Sheepshead Bay in Flatbush. And my father was an immigrant from Poland, came to this country in 1925 and worked in the garment industry as a sweater cutter. My mother was born in New York and went to college. In fact, went to Brooklyn College and became a teacher. Was a public-school teacher. I went to kind of boring local elementary schools and junior high schools in Brooklyn. I went to Brooklyn Technical High School, which I liked a lot. Why did I go to Harpur?
NC: 07:44
You have to tell the truth.
AC: 07:46
Because my friend, who was also we thought we would go to college together, and he was researching colleges that we could afford, and through their catalogs, and he found a college that had no gym requirement. It was Harpur College, and so we both immediately went to Harpur College. And of course, when we got there, they had a gym.
NC: 08:10
They did not have a requirement because they did not have a gym.
AC: 08:12
They had just built the new campus in Vestal, or they were building the campus in Vestal, and by the time we got there, there was a gym requirement. But as long as I was there, I stayed.
AC: 08:12
And so and so. That is interesting. So that was the only reason there must be- ,
AC: 08:29
No, well, I had it in terms of what my family could afford. It was a choice of Brooklyn College or Harpur College,
IG: 08:37
I see. And why Harpur College rather than, you know, SUNY Albany or some other SUNY?
AC: 08:42
Oh, I did not. Harpur College at that time had a very exclusive reputation for being a hard to get into high quality academic liberal arts college that was part of the State University of New York, and it was almost free. Albany was the Teachers College.
IG: 09:04
I see I did, I did. So, and what was your, what was your first impression when you arrived? Were you, you know, you grew up as a city kid? Had you ever gone to the country, to upstate New York before visiting?
AC: 09:24
Well, I went to summer camp, and we took vacations and things my when I got to Harpur, it was a construction site. It was, this was just what they were still holding classes in Endicott, New York, which is no eight miles away or 10 miles away, and then, but they had built a few dormitories on this hill in Vestal. And in those days, there was nothing around it. There was not a shopping mall right down the road. It was a deserted mud dump.
NC: 09:58
It was mud.
AC: 09:58
It was mud for-
NC: 09:59
Mud with boardwalks to get across.
AC: 10:04
But I was happy. I mean, I was I did not want it. I wanted to leave home. I wanted to go to a real college where with a, you know, dormitory life and so on. And I had several friends whom I knew from high school, and I was happy as a pig.
IG: 10:20
Several-several kids from your high school went there and, uh-
AC: 10:25
Yes-yes.
NC: 10:27
I knew nobody.
IG: 10:28
Yeah.
NC: 10:29
Well, and I knew nothing about and, but I had seen it. My parents took the driving trip one summer and showed me different colleges that we could not afford. Went including, we visited Harpur. It was closed. It was the summer, but we saw it and but I knew what to expect. So I had seen it. I was thrilled to leave the city to go to a school like that.
IG: 10:55
So it was a-
NC: 10:57
Sea of mud.
IG: 10:58
It was a sea of mud.
NC: 10:59
And there were no trees. There were no bushes. During my freshman year, Nelson Rockefeller came to make a speech, and they planted a whole bunch of trees one day.
IG: 11:12
What that is what year was that?
NC: 11:14
It would have been 1960 it would either been the fall of (19)62 or the spring of (19)63 and he came and they planted all the trees, and then after he left, they dug them all up and took them away.
IG: 11:26
Was this the time- that is that is incredible. Was this a time that he ignored the anti-war protesters on campus?
NC: 11:36
No, this is way before that. Way before that. This is, and this is when he, we did not know in those days that he was dyslexic, but I believe he turned out that he was, when he called our president, Dr. Bartlett, repeatedly, and his name was Dr. Bartle, but-but, and, but, somebody who was up there said he had big head cards with big block letters, which would you know- What- we did not know about these things in those days. I do not think many did, but he came to made a speech about something I have no idea we-we may have gone or may not have gone, but they took the trees.
IG: 12:12
Reminds me of another person who has cue cards for-
NC: 12:17
Oh yes-yes. Listen, I hear you.
IG: 12:23
It is just off the record. Okay, so we know what were. Yeah.
NC: 12:32
I was a freshman in a dormitory that was all double rooms, but was so crowded we were triples. It was very so every room there should have been two girls, was three bunk bed. It was very crowded, and it was all freshmen. And it was the only year, to the best of my knowledge, they ever made in all freshmen dormitory, which isn't a good idea. It just is nobody to tell you things, right, except your dorm residence. And my dorm resident said, one of the very first meetings said there are people you should there are three crazy people on this campus. Absolutely do not go near them and name two, and the third she named was Arthur Cooper. So there was that, but-
IG: 13:16
And why did, why did Art Cooper have that reputation.
NC: 13:16
It was [crosstalk]
IG: 13:20
So, were you intrigued?
NC: 13:22
No, I was afraid.
IG: 13:23
You were afraid. So how did-
NC: 13:25
But he was a senior. I was a freshman. I did not know, really.
IG: 13:28
So how did you make your acquaintance with Art Cooper in [crosstalk]
NC: 13:33
-small place.
IG: 13:34
Yes, it was a very small place.
AC: 13:37
One of the things that was so special about Harpur is that it was so isolated, just a few 100 kids living in dorms in a mud heap in the middle of nowhere, nobody had cars, nobody had money, that we got to know each other much better than
NC: 13:58
One might have.
AC: 13:59
One might in a normal university where-where there was a world outside the dormitory, and we- many of, I mean, we are still friends 50 years later, with lots of people [crosstalk] we knew from Harpur or from Harpur. And this is, I think this is unusual compared to other people I know.
NC: 14:21
And really a lot like, like, a lot of us.
AC: 14:24
Because we were, I mean, we were, we had classes, you know, 12 hours a week, but we were there 24 hours a day with nothing to do except get into trouble or get into mischief or fool around.
IG: 14:37
So tell us [crosstalk]
NC: 14:38
In freshman year, in freshman year, one girl came with a car, one.
IG: 14:42
Right.
NC: 14:42
And she was called Michelle Buick. I do not know her name, and she only, and she had to be. She did not last. She was gone after a fresh- she transferred out. We were too-
IG: 14:52
Because [crosstalk] she was [inaudible], she-she was giving rise to two minutes.
NC: 14:56
No-no-no-no-no. We were not high class enough. We were, sounds silly, but we're all really smart and pretty poor, a lot of a lot of my friends who lived in Manhattan at that time, it changed over time we lived in tenements. We did not if this was- I liked the food. Nobody likes the food in college, but I had spent summers in a different place where the food was so awful that the food in college seemed fabulous to me.
IG: 15:29
And it was all very plain fare, right?
AC: 15:31
It was a meal plan that you were obliged to be on.
NC: 15:31
It was relatively plain, and you could not have, like, you could not have a piece of pie and an apple. So you have, you were forced to steal if you wanted to have an apple later, you had to, like, steal the apple, because [crosstalk] No, [crosstalk]
NC: 15:49
You had to.
AC: 15:50
And it was pretty mediocre food.
NC: 15:53
It was, it was fine with me, except for the no two desserts.
IG: 16:00
So how did you spend your free time? You said that you had a lot of time to get into trouble. And how did you get into trouble? What were the occasions for-
NC: 16:11
It was the (19)60s.
IG: 16:12
It was the (19)60s, but it was the early (19)60s.
NC: 16:15
We were-
AC: 16:16
We were very precautious.
IG: 16:19
You were precautious.
AC: 16:20
There was a lot of drinking. In those days 18 was the age of consent for drinking in bars in New York-
NC: 16:29
But I have been drinking since 16.
AC: 16:32
Many of us were not even 18 when we were freshmen at Harpur, I was 16, but the bars did not really care. They would be happy to sell you a 10-cent glass of beer.
NC: 16:44
Broome County issued what was called a sheriff's card. Broome County would come onto the campus and the police would take your picture and make it official ID so that if you wanted to drink, you would have your sheriff's card. I lost mine. I found my Harpur ID card from 1962 but I do not have my sheriff's card, but that nobody looks that you drank everywhere.
AC: 17:06
The Triple City Traction Corporation ran a bunch of busses on schedule into Binghamton or into Johnson City or into Endicott. So you could, you could take a bus or but mostly, we hitchhiked a lot. I hitchhiked. I mean, I lived off campus for years that I hitchhiked back and forth.
NC: 17:25
We had parietal rules for the women. It was we had to be in a dorm at 10:30. On Friday and Saturday night, I think it was midnight.
IG: 17:34
Right.
NC: 17:35
And you could have two extra 12 o'clock this semester. It was insane, but when you think about it now, you could your parents had a sign of consent form of when you could stay off campus, like, can she go to religious retreats? Yes, can she stay with a friend in town? Yes. Well, everybody stayed in other place. The boys were allowed to live off campus, but they were not allowed to have a kitchen.
AC: 18:05
Depends which year you're talking about. The rules kept changing.
NC: 18:09
But they were allowed to have a kitchen because they were not supposed to be on the meal plan.
IG: 18:12
Right.
NC: 18:13
And so they would build like fake walls to cover the kitchen.
AC: 18:18
Be respected by somebody from Harpur.
NC: 18:20
And you could not have a kitchen sometimes.
IG: 18:23
So you built a wall?
AC: 18:25
I personally never you never-
NC: 18:27
You never had it, but I know people who did have to do that in Floral Avenue.
AC: 18:31
They put up a piece of sheetrock.
NC: 18:36
But girls, but when you were a senior, you could have a key. The dorms were locked. There was bed checks. You had to sign in every night. Somebody had to sit in the office. That would have been a job of someone like me. But when you were a senior, you got a key, and you could use the senior key. And I was on the senior key committee in my senior year, and that was when we finally got them to agree that girls could live off campus and but I did not go because it was for the last semester of college that just seemed insane, although a few people I know did immediately leave, but I did not. But-but-
IG: 19:15
Did these restrictions seem ludicrous harsh to you at the time?
NC: 19:21
Yeah, they did. They seemed absolutely ludicrous.
AC: 19:24
You could have, you could not have the opposite sex in your dormitory ever, except maybe four Sundays a semester. And the rule was four feet on the floor.
NC: 19:35
And doors open, four feet on the floor. That was, that was the rule.
IG: 19:39
Who would enforce these who would-
NC: 19:41
There was like, it was not called a Dean of Women, but it was like the director of women's housing, was the enforcer. And then the-
NC: 19:46
How would she know? Would she be patrolling? The-
NC: 19:53
[crosstalk] would devolve down to someone like me, a dorm counselor.
IG: 19:57
I see, I see, I see. But would you yell on infractions or-
NC: 20:01
No, I never, I never reported anybody for anything. But, and there was absolutely no alcohol on campus. And yet, I remember somebody running down to my room saying, your friend needed a drink. And did I have a bottle of alcohol? Of course I did, and so she gave it to him. But just anyways, no, it was very, very strict, but, but then we hang, what did we do? We talked, we talked.
IG: 20:33
What did they talking about?
NC: 20:34
Everything. We were very interested in civil rights, really. Before-before Vietnam was, there were people who were sophisticated enough to know about the war, but we were much more interested in civil rights and the Civil Rights Club, but it was a really big deal. There was one television down in what they called something. It was not the it was, it was on the bottom through
AC: 20:59
The basement of the dormitory.
NC: 21:00
Yeah, there was a TV, but nobody ever watched TV except the night the Beatles were first in America, and then there was, there was a television in the student center. There was a TV room where we what we will ran when we heard the President had been shot, and then we went up to watch Walter Cronkite. But we talked, we talked, we talked and talked, and then what else we played. I played cards. I played cards. If anybody said, "Where were you when the Cuban Missile Crisis," I was playing cards in the snack bar. And where were you when Kennedy was shot, I was playing cards in the snack bar. Then we ran when we heard-
AC: 21:42
The snack, the snack bar was the living room for the whole the whole college.
IG: 21:50
So how many people could fit in? I mean-
AC: 21:53
Hundreds. I mean, there were only 800 students total in the college, [crosstalk] and some of them were locals, but so there was plenty of room in the snack bar, and people cut classes and set the snack bar all day.
NC: 22:08
I graduated in the bottom 10 of my class, not the bottom 10 percent , the bottom 10.
IG: 22:16
What did you, what did you study? You said liberal arts.
NC: 22:19
History.
NC: 22:20
I studied more or less medieval history, and I still like it, and [crosstalk] but I you know anyway,
IG: 22:21
History.
NC: 22:22
Was that the Catholic girls education-
NC: 22:33
I know why, what it would have I would have been better off studying English, because in those days, the kind of criticism they did really was-was a lot about symbolism. And man, if you were Catholic, you could have them like that. However, you needed to know a language, and I that meant you had to go to a class and actually study French or something. And I did not.
AC: 22:53
Harpur had a very strong English department in the early days, much stronger than most of the other
NC: 22:59
It was really it was famous.
AC: 23:01
I mean, a lot of serious Ivy League PhD scholars.
IG: 23:06
So is that what you studied?
AC: 23:07
Yeah, I majored in English.
IG: 23:09
So who-who did you study with? Do you remember-
AC: 23:13
The most famous professor was Bernard Huppe, who taught the Chaucer and Middle English in those days to be an English major. It was so rigorous you were obliged to take old English. Can you imagine that you have to actually take old English and Chaucer and not only shake it, of course, in shakes, you had to take Milton. Can you imagine a whole semester of Milton.
NC: 23:41
You did not have to take the Bible.
NC: 23:41
And the Bible.
NC: 23:43
But It was available.
AC: 23:45
But it was a very it was as rig- I mean, they were trying to out Harvard-Harvard in terms of rigor for the English department. And they all, they-they were largely Catholic, the professors, or they were certainly, they-
AC: 24:01
They certainly had a Christian-
AC: 24:02
-Had a Christian, [crosstalk] A great professor was Weld, John Weld, who taught Milton, because nobody else would teach Milton, although Milton's beautiful. Francis X Newman was-
NC: 24:26
Taught medieval literature as well as and I recently went to a not that recently, but in the last 15 years or so, an alumni event where he was giving a speech, and I had had him for a few classes. And what was he speaking? He was speaking about Alger, Horatio Alger, who's the who's the rugged dick. But it was not, it was Horatio Alger books. That is what he was teaching now. And I said, Wow, that is what, you know, I later in my life, I sold rare books and things, and.
AC: 24:59
No, there were no fun courses nowadays. And you look at a college catalog, there are courses you actually might want to take, price novels about price fighting or movies about, [crosstalk] And those days-
NC: 25:15
Now be a English major and never read anything written before 1920 say, whereas-
IG: 25:20
That is unfortunate.
NC: 25:22
Well, it is, but we-we really had a rigorous education.
IG: 25:31
Your classmate, Ron Bayer said that the Harpur educational system was built on the University of Chicago-
AC: 25:44
Yes-
IG: 25:46
-liberal arts model-
AC: 25:48
first year freshmen, or maybe freshmen, sophomores had to take literature [crosstalk]
NC: 25:54
And 104, social sciences 101, 102.
AC: 25:59
They were like core-core courses assured that you knew something about the entire history of the world.
IG: 26:07
Did you find your classes enlightening? Did you enjoy them?
NC: 26:15
Not so much.
AC: 26:16
It depends.
IG: 26:18
Tell us what you enjoyed, what did you like, and what made an impression, positive or negative?
AC: 26:33
There were a lot of very-
NC: 26:34
Different then, for example, in the snack bar, there was a kind of a wall, and the professors would go get because it was the only place you get something deep. They was eight in the other side of the wall. They never mingled. They did not chat with you. They did not talk to you. I did do some babysitting for various professors kids. So then they would pick me up in a car and take me to their house and then bring me home. So you might have a few words with them, but they were not friendly, and both of my children, who are not children, but one is 46 and the other is 38 but when they were in college, they were invited to tea, to the house, or come over for a party. It was a very different social scene than we had. Our professors did not- were not friendly, and did not really know who you were. For the most part.
IG: 27:28
Was that your experience?
AC: 27:31
Certainly for the freshman and sophomore years, it got much better as you were a junior or senior and majoring in something-
NC: 27:40
So you might have had the same guy more than one time.
AC: 27:44
But they fared. A lot of them were very mediocre. I mean, when I started out, they were teachers in the Triple- in the Triple Cities Community College branch of Syracuse University. I mean, that is what Harpur was. Harpur was a two year it was founded by Syracuse to accommodate veterans coming back after World War Two.
IG: 28:06
Oh, I did not know.
AC: 28:07
And it was in Endicott in in huts, right? I mean, in shabby-shabby.
IG: 28:15
But yet it had this-this reputation of being well,
NC: 28:19
Not that, not quite then.
AC: 28:23
Then the state bought it, turned it into a full year liberal arts college, and made it good. But a lot of the professors were-were there since-since before they were, there were a lot of mediocre people around.
IG: 28:40
Were there any outstanding ones that you remember?
NC: 28:43
There was some very interesting ones.
IG: 28:45
Interesting. Okay, so interesting. Let us do interesting.
NC: 28:48
Amy Gilbert-
IG: 28:49
Yes.
NC: 28:50
Amy Gilbert, who was quite old. Now I do not know, because now I am old. I believe she was older than that I am now because she had been a journalist. She had been at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles. She was talking, she had been in France, and she heard they were going to sign the treaty. We jumped on our bicycles and we raced out to Versailles. I mean, what is the first thing a historian does? What is the first thing? What is the first thing? Write it down.
IG: 29:19
Yes.
NC: 29:20
And I mean, but she-she really taught things that were kind of meaningful. She was not boring.
IG: 29:26
No, [inaudible]
AC: 29:28
Who was the art-art professor?
NC: 29:32
Was it Ferber?
AC: 29:34
No-no.
NC: 29:35
Lindsay. Lindsay.
AC: 29:36
Lindsay. Kenneth Lindsay was [crosstalk] was famous because in world, he was part of the American army that was recapturing stolen German art. There was movies about a railroad [crosstalk]
IG: 29:55
Yes.
AC: 29:55
Well, he was one of them.
NC: 29:57
Oh, he is dead now.
IG: 29:58
How interesting.
AC: 29:58
Yes.
IG: 29:59
How interesting. Yeah, so-so you had these, you think that these professors were the exception, rather than the rule that they-
AC: 30:11
The school was growing so rapidly. It was doubling in size every year or two, and the faculty was doubling in size, and the more the new faculty were, had higher-
NC: 30:25
I honestly did not- [inaudible] went to class [crosstalk] do anything [inaudible]
IG: 30:33
So it was -
NC: 30:34
Every semester I got [inaudible].
IG: 30:36
Well, it was what they say now, of MFA program that the-the hard part is getting in, but when once you're there, you can-
AC: 30:47
Well, you have to be good enough to have a keep up a C average.
NC: 30:50
I did not want to flunk out, so I did the minimum that I had to do. I was not sure. I always kind of thought I would be a teacher, but I would go to Bank Street, and Bank Street did not care about your marks. I had two or three personal interviews,
AC: 31:11
[inaudible] submit finger prints.
NC: 31:13
Shut up. I had personal interviews. I had to write 1000-word essays about myself. I could do that like that. It did not and Bank Street, but I had my best friend in senior year, Carol. I can say her name, she did, but she would go to the office about every two or three weeks to check her standing in class because she was applying to law school. And-and she said, "You want to know you?" I said, "No, I do not want to know." And I got through my whole senior year not knowing until they gave me my diploma, and I opened it up to see it was the right one. And there was a transcript and said, standing in class like 496 out of 506 kids, I was the bottom 10.
AC: 32:01
No, I got good grades.
IG: 32:02
Did you care or?
NC: 32:04
No, I think it is hilarious.
IG: 32:05
You thought it was hilarious because it was.
NC: 32:08
It was not that the important, the I thought the best thing that ever happened to me still was that I went to Harpur. How lucky I was. I made friends, lifelong friends. I got a husband. I was exposed to the whole world. I had huge amounts of fun. I- it was, it was just the best thing that ever happened to me. But the going to school part was not that part.
AC: 32:35
I took school more seriously than you did. I do not remember where I graduated, very high. Like in the top-
NC: 32:43
Yeah, you graduated the 20th or the 13th or the sixth,
AC: 32:47
I had lots of A's.
NC: 32:48
Yeah, no A's, but, um, but it was it-it changed a lot. Now, Arthur is he graduated in (19)63 I graduated in (19)66 Ronnie graduated in (19)64 so each of us would have had a different kind of somewhat experience.
IG: 33:06
So, how did you actually meet? You know, you met at college, and then how did you-
IG: 33:13
You kept meeting. So you kept visiting. Nancy or-
NC: 33:13
We kept meeting.
AC: 33:17
No-no, I had another wife.
NC: 33:19
He had another wife, was also Harpur- he only marries Harpur girl and-
AC: 33:26
But it was a, it was a small crowd. We had parties together.
NC: 33:30
You lived in Johnson City. Yeah, you were a teacher at Johnson City High School.
AC: 33:34
Right.
NC: 33:34
And then I had friends and, but then I just got, I met you.
AC: 33:40
Right after I graduated, I went to graduate school in Florida for a year, and then I came back and lived in Johnson City. [crosstalk]I lived in Binghamton and taught high school in Johnson City, high-
IG: 33:52
So what did you get your graduate degree in?
AC: 33:53
I never got a graduate degree in anything. But I was, I was studying for a master's in English.
IG: 34:01
I see, I see, so you returned after that year.
AC: 34:05
Because my wife was still an under mighty first wife was still an undergraduate.
IG: 34:11
I see.
AC: 34:12
Two more years to go, I think.
NC: 34:13
But then years, you know, then-
AC: 34:16
And it was great living. And it was somewhat expensive. I had a five-room apartment with a front and a back deck for $75 a month. You could buy a whole pizza for 75 cents. My first job for teaching in Johnson City High School, I made $5,200 a year. I was rich. I could buy a new I bought a new Volvo, and lived for a year on that it was, was a great place to live.
IG: 34:44
It is, it probably was a different city. It was not economically depressed.
AC: 34:44
Oh yes, it was always [crosstalk]
IG: 34:48
It was prosperous. It was a prosperous city, the city of IBM. No?
IG: 34:56
It was already depressed. It was already beginning to be depressed.
NC: 34:56
IBM was, was IBM was in the process of leaving. Johnson Endicott, Johnson Shoe Company was already pretty much over. And that was huge. It was called, it was a really big company, EJ, but that no, it was, it was kind of depressed city.
AC: 35:19
But that was good because rents were cheap. Food was cheap. I mean, you could buy pierogies for a nickel at the Russian church every Friday.
AC: 35:24
Supermarket and-
AC: 35:32
Get bologna three pounds for $1 [laughs]
NC: 35:39
It was all it was cheap with cheap-cheap living.
IG: 35:41
So-so you know you- let us talk about what you know politics were in the air. You- did you fear being drafted.
AC: 35:57
You did. It depends what year, but yes, politics were very much in the air, and I was one of the more in one of the more left-wing noise making crowds. There was a club called the progressive Socialist Society, founded by a couple of unrepentant Stalinists. And, among other things, we- Herbert Aptheker. We-we arranged for an actual communist. Herbert W Aptheker. He was a PhD in history, and he was really an expert on slave rebellions. But that was not important. What was important was he was a communist, and we invited him up to campus to speak. And this created such a brouhaha in the Binghamton press and in the pen, in the Sun Bulletin and town gown. Relations were very low at that time anyway, because Harpur kids were beatniks and so on. Not yet hippies, they were just beatniks.
IG: 37:20
Were you at that? Did you-
NC: 37:22
There were two kinds of people on campus. Well, sort of there were the upstate and the downstairs, and then they were called the sickies that would be downstate people, or people of that, who might like that from the upstate and clubbies who would might belong to a social club we did not have, we did not have fraternities, but there were social clubs that-that mostly boys belong to girls, but-
IG: 37:52
You did not, you did not.
AC: 37:54
I did not know. And to its credit, the college allowed Aptheker to speak, and it was a big deal. It was surrounded by policemen and everything. And-
NC: 38:03
This is before my time.
IG: 38:05
Yeah.
AC: 38:05
And he came and he spoke and he went.
NC: 38:07
And but so did. But also Eleanor Roosevelt came, right?
IG: 38:11
Right.
AC: 38:12
Yes.
NC: 38:14
And [crosstalk]
AC: 38:17
There were a lot, and it was also the era of the beginning of civil rights. It was- (19)63 was the, you know, the year of taking busses down to register people to vote.
IG: 38:29
And did you?
AC: 38:30
I did not. But people we knew did. Joined [crosstalk]
NC: 38:38
[inaudible] and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.
IG: 38:42
Were there any students of color that you remember from-
AC: 38:46
Almost none.
NC: 38:47
Two.
AC: 38:47
Who were they?
NC: 38:49
Julius Mangi, who, for some reason, came from Africa. And he thought he was, I think he thought he was going to go to NYU, but he ended up in SUNY.
AC: 38:57
And Krishna.
AC: 38:57
Right. He thought he was going to State University of New York. He thought he would be in New York, and he was in Vestal and he was the only black person in Vestal. [laughs]
AC: 39:00
He was an Indian.
NC: 39:12
And then there was a Margot, something, Margot, oh, Yvonne Yancey, I mean-
AC: 39:18
But very few. If they were five in the whole campus. [crosstalk] professors.
NC: 39:24
But there were, that is true there. But it was very active civil rights club, very active. And also going up to picket HUAC is House Un-American Activities Committee. They were they were resurgent in Buffalo. We took busses up to picket. I have pictures of me picketing outside of someplace I do not know. I go to work.
IG: 39:53
Were you protesting against the house of Un-American Activities? Could you tell us about that?
NC: 39:58
I can I. Forgot.
IG: 40:00
You forgot. Okay,
NC: 40:05
I thought about it, but, uh,
IG: 40:06
Well, maybe, maybe you will remember in the course of this conversation, so you were active in this sort-
NC: 40:16
[crosstalk] civil rights this did happen to me in Binghamton, and I do not even know why I did nothing about it at the time, there was a Conklin Avenue. Was a street near the river, was like right along the river, and there was an apartment building, and being with an apartment building might have only been two or three stories right. that refused to rent an apartment to a black dentist who had moved to Binghamton. So the Civil Rights Club decided they would picket this building, and I do not even remember what the outcome was, but we kept a picket line going in front of that building for a while. We all had shifts, and I had a shift with somebody whose name I forgot. His first name was Fred. I remember the rest of his name. Just the two of us on a Sunday morning, and we were on the sidewalk. There was a low a low brick wall and some hedges, and a car pulls up and like three guys jump out, pull out a long gun, like a rifle, aim it at us. We both leaped over the wall and lay down, and they laughed and got back in the car and drove away. And we have not told anybody. And I just think that all of that is very surprising when I think about it. And I was a freshman, then that was surprising.
IG: 41:36
And-and, so do you remember approximately when this happened?
NC: 41:41
I thinking it must have been in the spring of (19)63 in that it was not raining and we were not freezing, but I do not know.
IG: 41:51
Did you tell anybody?
NC: 41:53
Well, we may have told other friends, but we never told anybody in authority or the police or anything.
IG: 41:58
Because?
NC: 41:59
It never occurred to us.
IG: 42:00
It never occurred because you were afraid that you were in some way-
NC: 42:04
No.
IG: 42:05
Breaking-
NC: 42:05
No. It just did not occur to us.
IG: 42:08
Did not occur to you.
AC: 42:09
Because the place where the pigs-
NC: 42:11
We did not think that then, I did not think that then, but anyway, but that would that was one thing that happened, another crazy thing that happened with the Civil Rights Club that was insane, and we had to get special permission from the head of women's housing. There was a department store called Brits, and it was in a shopping mall rather small, just a mile or so from the campus called Vestal Plaza and on George Washington's birthday, for reasons I do not know what they were going to have a- they were going to give silver dollars away for the first 200 people who got to the store. So the whole Civil Rights Club went there. 430 in the morning. We had to get permission for the girls to leave the campus and walk over there and get there when we all line up, we all got the silver dollars to donate to some civil rights organization you might have been there.
IG: 43:13
So what, you know, I am just interested what took place at this in this kind of you said unrepentant. There were unrepentant Stalinists.
AC: 43:24
It was more [crosstalk] Nothing serious. Nothing took place. Just to piss off the administration was like the [crosstalk]
NC: 43:33
That was the goal of everything.
AC: 43:36
-to see what you could do to make Dean Belniak's blood pressure go through the roof.
NC: 43:41
Or just to see what you could get away with. Could you really sneak out and not get caught? Or could you really have had three bottles of brandy in your room and not get caught or, or could you have a boy in your room and not get caught? And-
IG: 43:57
It is just testing the boundaries.
NC: 44:00
It may have been something like that. That would not have been me, exactly, but-but I know that people did that.
AC: 44:07
I was on the convocations committee that was which was [crosstalk] one of the highlights of my career at Harpur, the convocations committee had an annual but it was students, faculty and administration met [crosstalk]I do not know how often to plan the year's convocations, and-
NC: 44:28
Meaning who you invite to the meeting.
AC: 44:30
Meaning what-
IG: 44:32
Right.
AC: 44:35
Placido Domingo came up before anybody ever heard of Placido Domingo. It was, he looked like this. I thought he was a Mexican. He was not Mexican. Dispatched a Mexican. Came by bus.
IG: 44:47
By bus?
AC: 44:48
By bus from New York to Binghamton to sing for right, $100 maybe $150- we had a-
IG: 44:55
Where was he then? Who? What opera was he in?
NC: 44:58
[crosstalk] Our son, Michael, who is a reporter right now, is a, it is not a critic. He is a reporter for music, classical music, dance. And he knows Placido pretty well after all these years. And he once said, my father and mother saw you in Binghamton because it was early, ugly. But we, but no, you had the best thing I ever saw. There was Jose Contreras, Circle in the Square, Production of Under Milk Wood that you and W. H. Auden came. I mean we-
IG: 45:22
[crosstalk] serious?
AC: 45:24
No, I was his escort. I spent-
IG: 45:29
Of whom?
AC: 45:33
W. H. Auden. [crosstalk]
NC: 45:38
He wore slippers, he wore orange bedroom slippers.
AC: 45:45
And he somewhat disgraced himself. [crosstalk] I was a senior and we had the convocations committee, I guess, through an agent or through his publisher. You know, once you're holding convocations, they come to you asking for gigs. And he came up to give a speech. He came up the day before there was a little like a motel unit apartment for celebrities upstairs from in the snack bar building.
IG: 46:08
How glamorous.
AC: 46:20
And I was a senior, and I was at the time, I thought I was going to go to Africa to join the Peace Corps. And so he and I had a long talk about Isk Dinesen and Kenya and Africa, and-
IG: 46:34
Had he been to those parts?
AC: 46:36
He or me? I do not know if he had. I certainly had not, but he knew he was like innocent or and we I picked him up for breakfast. We went to the stack well for breakfast, we sat around and had breakfast.
IG: 46:52
So how did you he strike you? What did he was? What? How did he look like [crosstalk]
AC: 46:58
He was, he was a drunk. He was a pathetic drunk.
NC: 47:04
But he still read his poetry and he was charming and he was neat.
IG: 47:09
Do you remember what he read?
AC: 47:11
No.
IG: 47:11
No, you do not remember. Would it be on record what he read?
NC: 47:15
It might be in the if they have the Annals of the newspapers.
AC: 47:19
I do not know.
NC: 47:21
There was still called the Colonial News.
IG: 47:25
-is in the process of working [crosstalk]
AC: 47:29
It have been in the spring of (19)63.
IG: 47:36
So he was, he was already drunk.
AC: 47:39
No, he was not.
IG: 47:40
In the morning?
AC: 47:41
No-no. But by the time he read at the auditorium or the theater in the evening,
IG: 47:49
After he read?
AC: 47:50
No, before, during he was kind of, his teeth were kind of falling out of his mouth, a little, sloshing around, but, but it was brilliant. I mean, I am not trying to [crosstalk]
IG: 48:05
Were, you know, all of the English faculty kind [crosstalk]
NC: 48:08
I think everybody was, look, yeah, as we have said, there was nothing to do. We had this theater that really the convocations committee.
AC: 48:17
Then they hired the Guarneri Quartet for several years, the Guarneri Quartet was artist in residence at Harpur.
NC: 48:27
And they were phenomenal. And you could go to the free rehearsals. It was free.
AC: 48:31
And their performances, artists in residence, mean they gave four or five performances a year, or-
NC: 48:39
At least.
AC: 48:40
-maybe more than that. And you could go to them, and they were all 27 years old at that time also.
NC: 48:48
One of them was, it was David Sawyer, I believe, who-
AC: 48:52
The cellist.
NC: 48:54
-who could not record because he was a heavy breather. And in those days, they did not know how to get that sound out. But, of course, later on he was, they were making recordings. But we had the Pearl Lang Dance Company. We had, we had amazing shows.
NC: 49:11
And Peter and [crosstalk]
NC: 49:13
Peter Wood was-was-was the outstanding thing in my mind, but-but that we saw lots of things- are just people who-
AC: 49:22
There was also a lot of student produced theater. We had a really pretty high quality.
NC: 49:28
[crosstalk] matches.
AC: 49:29
Okay, there you go.
NC: 49:31
You and you were in the sandbox.
AC: 49:33
I played daddy in the sandbox.
NC: 49:36
No, and you played Uncle Tom in Uncle Tom's Cabin, right?
AC: 49:40
That was different. But, yeah.
IG: 49:41
Why is it different?
AC: 49:44
It was not a real it was not, was not a real theatrical production, on the stage with an audience.
NC: 49:51
It was in the coffee house.
AC: 49:53
Yeah.
NC: 49:53
But they tried to, I mean, we had a good time.
IG: 49:57
You had a good time. And I think sounds like you were exposed to really kind of a deep culture with some really important cultural and-
AC: 50:07
The prevailing attitude was Marx Brothers, Looney Tunes.
IG: 50:13
Yeah.
AC: 50:13
I mean, at least
IG: 50:17
In America, and kind [crosstalk]
AC: 50:19
No, the attitude among my friends and fellow students. We were wise guys.
NC: 50:26
Funniest people I ever met in my life. I and I do not think you can be really funny unless you're really smart. And I could not believe my good fortune to be in this place with people. I hope we're just hysterical now, even now on Facebook, we're old and that sort of we do Facebook, and there are a group of horrible people, and sometimes you will get a thread of things that will just have me laughing, and it is exactly they are exactly the same as they were, even though I have not seen them in 40 years, these the repartee is very-very-very clever and funny and smart, but-
AC: 51:07
There was Binghamton radio disc jockey or call and talk show host.
IG: 51:17
I Think I interviewed somebody who [crosstalk]
AC: 51:20
For months, a couple of students, whom we will not name, would call him up with funny accents and engage him in the most ludicrous conversation.
NC: 51:34
I have a magic act, and I cannot get hired any man in Binghamton. [laughter] [inaudible] the tip of my tongue, but I want to say I cannot remember the name of the show.
AC: 51:48
Okay.
NC: 51:50
Speak for yourself. I think that is what. It was cool. Speak for yourself. Ultimately, they caught us.
NC: 51:56
So what happened? [crosstalk]
NC: 51:59
They just hanging their phone calls. But it was truly hilarious.
IG: 52:05
So how did, how did the talk show host feel these answers?
AC: 52:12
He was blindsided. He was taking this seriously.
NC: 52:16
And then other people would call in to respond. But the people there were so really-really funny and clever in ways and outrageous, and it made it a lot of fun.
AC: 52:34
A highlight of my four years there was when the Aunt Jemima Pancakes House, Pancake House opened down the highway,
NC: 52:42
Right across the from campus [crosstalk]
AC: 52:49
Um, for their opening month or three months-
NC: 52:52
Was not that long.
IG: 52:53
[inaudible] on site?
AC: 52:53
Yes.
NC: 52:53
But then there was the great- there were a lot of along Vestal Highway. I do not know if it is still called vessel highway. There was a number of steak houses. And then there was the weekend of the great steak stealing contest. Many different, many different students worked in kitchens or waiters, and the idea was, who could steal the best, the most steak. It was relatively harmless, stealing steaks from the restaurant that underpaid you.
IG: 52:53
But what kind of music were you listening to at the time? Do you remember?
AC: 52:53
Folk.
AC: 52:53
I do not know what it was. It was all you could eat for dollar 25 right across the highway from a campus with a bad meal plan, so we drove them crazy. I mean, waitresses are crying and quitting. I mean, we come in and say, I would like two large glasses of fresh orange juice and eight orders of bacon, please.
NC: 53:01
In the beginning, was folk, but, but by the time it was I was really heavy stones. And you know, the more druggy we became, the more less folky we became.
AC: 54:09
No drugs in my early years.
NC: 54:11
There were no drugs and, well, there were drugs in my early years, but I did not have the good sense to use them. Ultimately, I and some of these things stay with you for the rest of your life. And here we are, of course, more than a half a century later. And-
IG: 54:27
So how different were these, were this experience of theater, of Guarneri String Quartet, from your family upbringing? Was this a different world, or was this a continuation-
NC: 54:40
Totally different.
AC: 54:42
Oh, yeah, this was getting cultured, that you go to college to get cultured.
NC: 54:46
My family was half Spanish, and so what we, if we-we would go see flamenco dancing, sometimes in Carmen and Maya, but once I was sent to the Metropolitan Opera. And I thought, kill me now, but now, anytime I can go, I am so thrilled, and I get to go quite often. I did get to Broadway plays when I was a kid because they were affordable, unlike now, if there was a blizzard in New York, my mother would say, "Quick, get on the subway, go up and get tickets," and there would be cancelation So, but they were cheap. They were truly cheap, not now anyway. But no, this was all new. It was funny. I grew up in the village, and I was walking out of my school singing, "Oh, Mary, we crown thee with blossoms today." Bob Dylan was probably across the street singing, but I never saw him. I was doing something other than, you know, I did not well. I hung around the streets. And very interesting.
IG: 55:51
You were also young.
NC: 55:52
Yes, but-but we were also out all the time and [crosstalk]
AC: 55:56
A lot of movies. This was in the day before there were VCRs or DVDs or anything. And so-
NC: 56:04
That is right, movies.
AC: 56:07
And it was a- the convocations committee showed some movies, but in the private or student clubs, as a fundraising event, would rent, uh-
NC: 56:22
I do not know about that, Mondo Connie. I remember going to the movies in Binghamton. It was cheap. Movies were cheap.
AC: 56:29
But like, we would rent a movie, you get it in reels of 16-millimeter film from Janus, and you charge 50 cents admission, and you would show an Ingrid Bergman, Ingmar Bergman, or some of the European you know, high class post World War Two movies.
NC: 56:53
For lots of us-
AC: 56:55
Because there was almost always a movie somebody was showing on the weekend.
NC: 56:59
For all of our friends, even, who are my friends now, none of their parents went to college. None of them did such cultural things. We learned it in college. We had- it was a lot of fun.
IG: 57:13
So tell me about you know, just give me kind of a general kind of trajectory of your lives after you graduated, you went to Bank, Street School, you at some point-
NC: 57:27
I went to Bank, married, I became a teacher, and he ultimately became a teacher. He was still avoiding the draft.
AC: 57:42
I spent several years of avoiding the draft. I went to graduate school in Florida.
NC: 57:48
They would not let him into Peace Corps.
AC: 57:50
[crosstalk] the draft. I could not get into the Peace Corps because of my left-wing background. This was the very earliest years of the Peace Corps. Kennedy was president, Sergeant Shriver was head of the Peace Corps, and they were very nervous about hiring communists. I was not a communist.
IG: 58:09
But you were, I mean, [crosstalk]. How did they know that you were a communist?
AC: 58:13
The FBI was- they really did background checks on every Peace Corps applicant. I mean, they were interviewing my neighbors in Brooklyn, my parents, neighbors in Brooklyn.
NC: 58:25
From where you moved out when you were two or something even.
AC: 58:29
So, but anyway, the Peace Corps would not have me, but they got me into graduate school in Florida, after which I got a teaching job, which was defer draft deferrable. And I also married somebody which was also draft deferrable, somebody not Nancy. And I taught there for three years.
NC: 58:51
Then-then, she went to graduate school in the city, and so you moved to the city, and I was already teaching in the city, and this was in the late (19)60s, and there was this enormous teachers strike. Albert Shanker, I do not remember these names, and it was a huge-huge strike. And they were, I am making the numbers up here, but something like 35,000 striking teachers and 100 scabs-scabs. It was political at that time. At this time, I was saying it was it was it probably incorrect position, but days it seemed like the correct position. And there were meetings and I-
NC: 59:32
Teachers teaching for the community.
NC: 59:32
Teachers teaching for the community.
IG: 59:36
Tell us, what are scabs for the purpose of this?
AC: 59:40
Scabs are teachers who cross the picket line to go into work
NC: 59:44
Scab, you know, and I had to walk past my coworkers who would spit on me as I walked into my school in East Harlem, which I had to open with a crowbar to get the chains off the door because the schools had been locked and we slept there in. In sleeping bags, but, and there were people who to this day, if I said they would not speak to me, but I do not care.
AC: 1:00:09
And I was teaching at the time in Brooklyn and Sheepshead Bay High School, which had probably 200 faculty and six scabs. And it was unpleasant.
AC: 1:00:09
It was unpleasant. Yes.
IG: 1:00:21
So how did you-
NC: 1:00:24
There were meetings for the people who were the teachers, and since the only 100 and all city.
IG: 1:00:30
Right.
NC: 1:00:31
We-we met, and I do not know.
AC: 1:00:35
And we had mutual friends all from Harpur.
NC: 1:00:38
Over the years, we had been at parties at the same time.
AC: 1:00:42
But this time I was not married.
NC: 1:00:43
This time he was not married, and I was, you know, loose ends, and they kept buying the same records,
AC: 1:00:50
And she had an apartment with an air conditioner.
NC: 1:00:54
And I had a dental plan, and that was it. I do not forget why I married you, because I thought you were handy.
AC: 1:01:04
I was handy. I put down a new floor in your kitchen.
NC: 1:01:07
Yeah, it was six tiles.
AC: 1:01:08
The kitchen was so small that it took nine tiles.
NC: 1:01:13
But then you never did it again.
IG: 1:01:17
So how did you-you know, and how did you end up in this beautiful apartment? And from being, from being in that small space with six tiles to-
NC: 1:01:28
Arthur, he was very successful, but he did.
AC: 1:01:34
After my second-year teaching, and Sheepshead Bay, I quit teaching.
NC: 1:01:40
That is when we got married.
NC: 1:01:42
She might have heard. Do you know the Gale research company?
AC: 1:01:42
And that is when we got married. I was able to quit teaching, because I by that time, I was 26 and not draftable. And we got married, and I looked for jobs. I got jobs writing-
IG: 1:01:59
Yes.
AC: 1:02:00
I worked for writing advertisements to librarians for the- their various series, The Encyclopedia of Associations, contemporary authors.
IG: 1:02:11
Of course, I know, I know that series very well.
AC: 1:02:14
Okay, well, I had nothing to do with the series except selling it. They had an office in New York where we wrote junk mail, catalogs and brochures and mailings to librarians to get them to buy Gale products.
IG: 1:02:30
I remember the hard copy version of Gale, the contemporary authors, the various kinds of-
AC: 1:02:37
I only knew the hard copy version.
NC: 1:02:39
I am going to walk away [crosstalk]
AC: 1:02:46
That was a good job, because I was in a two-person office, and I learned everything from my boss, not just in writing the copy, but in cutting out the proof, the-the print. Prints and pasting them down on the mechanicals and wrapping the boards and taking them to the post office to send to the printer. And I learned the whole direct mail industry.
IG: 1:03:14
Did you interact with the authors at all, or editors?
AC: 1:03:18
No, the editor's slides- most of what Gail was selling were so called scholarly reprints of Victor of out of print, and therefore public domain, Victorian studies of folklore and stuff like that. It was really happened to be the interest of the guy who owned the company.
IG: 1:03:41
But I remember, you know, I remember 20th century Russian authors in that series, and contemporary author, I remember, I remember using that encyclopedia myself for, you know, my-my studies.
AC: 1:03:58
Well, do you know better than I.
IG: 1:04:00
My Russian literature, yeah.
AC: 1:04:02
And by that time we had a baby, and I was making very little money, but my boss at Gale connected me to his friend at an advertising agency called R. L. Polk, and they hired me just a few blocks away, and suddenly I was making much more money, and I became a direct mail advertising creator, creative director, writer, copywriter, mostly for magazines and books and book clubs and also insurance companies and fundraisers, and I did that for them, for well, there was [crosstalk] back and forth, few jobs in here and there, but I ultimately left that to go freelance and. From 1986 until now. Well, I am now retired, but I was self-employed as a direct mail freelance writer and designer, and that that is [crosstalk] I bought this apartment.
IG: 1:05:22
And you?
NC: 1:05:24
I taught for a couple of years. Had baby. Always thought I would go right back to work, as my mother did. She went back to work before I was two, but then I realized do not want to do that. I was very-very different from women my age. They all wanted to fulfill themselves and go to work and-and they needed the money, but we were able to pare back our lives in a way that I did not go back to work. I stayed home with Michael, and then I had a second child a number of years later, but I did not go back to work till Eddie was 29 I did not be but I volunteered all the time. What did I do? I-I volunteered, doing two things, playing the guitar in nursery schools, music with little kids, because I am pretty good at that. But I also learned the used book business, and first, as a volunteer, sold books for a nonprofit called the Hudson Guild on north side in Chelsea, they would have a book fair every year, and I would work on that, and ultimately run that. And then they decided not to do that anymore, and I began working for a group called Housing Works. And Housing Works is a pretty big aids homeless group, but they have a bookstore in on Crosby Street in Soho, and I worked there for 13 years, selling rare books online and in the store.
IG: 1:06:57
As a volunteer?
NC: 1:06:58
No-no employee. And I still, I was there Monday. I still do that. I like a lot.
IG: 1:07:07
That is nice.
NC: 1:07:08
So I am fun, and I know a lot about books. And it is, you know, this weekend is-
AC: 1:07:14
Yes, the Park Avenue -
NC: 1:07:15
-is the biggest.
IG: 1:07:17
Armory?
AC: 1:07:18
Yeah.
IG: 1:07:19
Big wood.
NC: 1:07:19
Big book fair.
IG: 1:07:21
Book fair. Oh.
AC: 1:07:21
This is the classiest, largest book fair anywhere.
IG: 1:07:25
Rare books.
NC: 1:07:26
Yes, this will happen. You know what they call elephant folios of order by Princeton [crosstalk]
AC: 1:07:32
You can get in for $25.
NC: 1:07:35
I do not- is it that I did not, I am not going. I cannot walk, so I am done with that for the moment.
IG: 1:07:41
Okay, well, you know, I think that maybe you know the concluding questions are that I usually ask at the conclusion of the interview is, what lessons, what life lessons did you learn that you think would help current students at Binghamton University, or, you know, future, future students that are listening to these tapes. What really got you through the-
NC: 1:08:15
Trends. But I cannot imagine it so large now it is just one of our nieces went there. It is huge. It is just, I have not been back in a number of years. I went to a few reunions, but it is really far, really far, and I had a fabulous time.
AC: 1:08:35
Not as far as it used to be.
NC: 1:08:36
No.
AC: 1:08:37
When I started going there, it was seven hours to drive there from New York City, because there was a route 17 ended in about in Monticello, in the Catskills. We're living somewhere. And from-from there to Binghamton was a narrow, winding two lane road in you would invariably be stuck behind a milk truck going uphill and with no passing possibilities. And it took seven hours to drive from New York to Binghamton. Now it takes three.
IG: 1:09:10
That is terrible.
NC: 1:09:11
It was five and a half the first time my parents took me there.
IG: 1:09:14
As it is now, three and a half hours is pretty exhausting.
NC: 1:09:17
Yeah. It got better when we could go through Pennsylvania.
AC: 1:09:20
The fastest way still, is through Scranton. [crosstalk]
NC: 1:09:24
And that was also very scenic, but, so I do not it was just friends that that have meant everything to me, and here I am still. I mean, we have a house on [inaudible] because my college roommate has a house one walk away from me. We still, yeah, we're friends forever. We have a number of couples who are still married in the time when so many people are not still married. Okay. We're married 49 years. Yeah. A tip for you. You always had your marriage on, but we- what was a lot of fun in early years after college was that everybody came back to New York to see their parents, and they would come see us now, their parents were all dead, so we do not see them so much they stay in California.
AC: 1:10:22
Being a Harpurites, Harpur graduate who lived in Manhattan, you would get a lot of company from other Harpurites who were coming to the city to visit for Christmas week or whatever.
IG: 1:10:35
So for you, what do you have any message to convey to the future.
AC: 1:10:43
I guess be cynical, I guess is my most important point. Be questioning. Be negative.
NC: 1:10:53
I am nothing like that.
AC: 1:10:57
Do not believe anything they tell you.
IG: 1:10:59
So it is a good lesson. Any concluding remarks.
NC: 1:11:10
It was very pretty. There was the country. It is not so much anymore. I mean, I have seen it. They used to be, could just walk up behind the dorms.
AC: 1:11:17
We had a tree house. I mean, one of the reasons. One of the reasons they thought I was a bad example was a couple of friends and I just walking. There was probably buildings there by now. Keep going up the hill, uphill from the campus, and you were in the woods. And it was, it was complete woods. I mean, you could not see anything in any direction, and we built a tree house and would go there and sit around. We never smoked anything there, maybe not in the early years.
IG: 1:11:52
Why do you think that you have the reputation of being inspiring person? Do you-
NC: 1:12:02
[crosstalk] Zany.
AC: 1:12:05
Yeah, there was a lot of zaniness involved. And this was also the age of Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. And for example, in my freshman year, living in Hinman dormitory on the second floor, I collected 10 cents from every kid on the floor every month, and bought comic books and bought and so that there would be about eight there were three toilet stalls in the bathroom, and each in each toilet stall, I had about eight comic books on a string tied in. And this was, one was adventureland, one was fantasy, yeah, and one was and every month I put in 8-24, fresh comic books. That is just an example.
IG: 1:12:05
Oh, Zany.
IG: 1:12:55
[crosstalk] material, yeah, yeah, but that is kind of an inventive idea.
NC: 1:12:58
It is funny. I did not know you did that. I did that too when I was a dorm counselor, but it was not comic books. It was all girls, yeah, girls dorms. And I did that. I did that too. I must see it. It was, it was a very great time for me those four years, and I did learn things, despite the fact I am so sorry that I did not learn that I should have majored in art history. I did not discover Art History till maybe the first semester of my junior year, and I thought I died and gone to heaven, but in those days, you did. Nobody stayed in college more than four years. You knew you went for four years, and nobody had the money for the extra year, so you could not make all your requirements if you did that. But-but I-I would always like history, but art history was even better, because it was everything. It was history and sociology and philosophy and politics, and-
IG: 1:14:05
It had, from what I know, it had a tremendous Art History and Art Department.
NC: 1:14:11
It did, but I never had Lindsay. I well, I did a little bit, but there was a guy who was in art. I wish I could think of his name. He was a curator at the Morgan.
IG: 1:14:26
I know him. Wolfley.
NC: 1:14:29
That is it. I have gone on tour there with him.
IG: 1:14:33
I bought tours with him too.
NC: 1:14:40
But there was a lot of- I wish. I wished that I had known about art history, but just it was something, and I wish they had not made me take Bio, Sci or geology, although, in fact, Geology has, even though I got a D. Shut up, it stood me in good stead. I still know a little bit about what I am looking at when I am out in the world. But I wish I could have taken it a little more cultured. I would have been better off had majored in art history.
AC: 1:15:11
I would like to learn something about Charles Eldred, who was he was a senior when I was a freshman, and the artist, correct. I will find out. And he died, yes, young, and I do not know how, although he smoked [inaudible] nonstop.
NC: 1:15:38
He had a wife. His wife, wife's name [inaudible] and his son's name is Charles, and Chuck is-is an architect, because I once Googled Charles Eldred and I have got Chuck.
AC: 1:15:47
There is a museum in Binghamton called the Roberson gallery. They had a show there. In fact, we have a poster of it in the bathroom. [crosstalk] And he was an extremely aside from being a talented artist, he was zany and crazy and wonderful. I mean, he was, he was built, he built an ornithopter.
IG: 1:16:11
What is that?
AC: 1:16:18
If you imagine a something Leonardo da Vinci, a helicopter built by Leonardo da Vinci out of wood with thick wings, that flap. I mean, it did not work, but it was a built it out of wood. Months building an ornithopter, and with a very good sense of humor.
IG: 1:16:40
He actually built it, yeah, did it work?
AC: 1:16:43
No, he did not. I mean, he never tried to, never took it on the roof and tried to fly. No, it would definitely not work. it was a joke. And Lindsay, after he graduated, Lindsay hired him to stay on, to teach art. And there is a whole lot of Harpur alumni who studied art, from-from Doc, from Professor Eldred.
AC: 1:17:13
But he was an outstanding considering an unknown artist, he was totally unknown in the world of art, and we great.
NC: 1:17:13
And who have, we have a number of friends who have an Eldred or two in their house. We have more than an Eldred or two.
NC: 1:17:31
We think he is good.
AC: 1:17:34
That concludes our meeting for today.
(End of Interview)
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Title
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Interview with Arthur Cooper and Nancy Cooper
Subject
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Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area
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Cooper, Arthur ; Cooper, Nancy ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
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Arthur Cooper is a writer, self-employed. Art started out working for Gale publishing, but he made his name as a direct mail writer.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2018-03-09
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eng
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Art and Nancy Cooper.mp3
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2018-03-09
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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77:38 minutes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/18f584fd4c9b11739b6519a2b8d49161.mp3
6c5cbfa59356777c6a744ce8e5bd9b5e
Dublin Core
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Format
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Oral Histories
Title
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
An account of the resource
In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
Creator
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Irene Gashurov
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2017-2018
Relation
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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Date of Interview
2019-04-02
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied
Year of Graduation
1966
Biographical Text
Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied, American Librarian. Certified reading specialist, New Jersey, New York; She worked as adult services supervisor for the Edison Public Library and as public relations officer for the I.L. Peretz Community Jewish School in New Brunswick before that. She is a member of the New Jersey Library Association. She enjoys reading, gardening and furniture refinishing in her spare time.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied
Subject
The topic of the resource
Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Espenschied, Barbara Kriegsman ; Gashurov, Irene
Description
An account of the resource
Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied, American Librarian. Certified reading specialist, New Jersey, New York; She worked as adult services supervisor for the Edison Public Library and as public relations officer for the I.L. Peretz Community Jewish School in New Brunswick before that. She is a member of the New Jersey Library Association. She enjoys reading, gardening and furniture refinishing in her spare time.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-04-02
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
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Identifier
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Barbara Espenschied_1.mp3
Date Modified
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2019-04-02
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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48:36 minutes
IIIF Item Metadata
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5112e9b6211742e8470d4ab3d66bed61.mp3
48d484734d2fc790298073eeef97224a
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e6952d772bf48e6bc719239f4c6a2ae8.jpg
6dfb4cb3bb3c63d8ba910d55898efafa
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral Histories
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
An account of the resource
In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Irene Gashurov
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-2018
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2018-01-03
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Barry Polsky
Year of Graduation
1967
Biographical Text
Barry graduated with a degree in Psychology from Harpur. His career spanned different professions. He worked as researcher for a pharmaceutical firm; as a software engineer after earning a graduate degree in computer science. He drove a cab and before retirement worked as a high school math teacher.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Subject LCSH
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Barry Polsky
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 3 January 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
BP: 00:03
Travel will be difficult.
IG: 00:04
Travel will be difficult tomorrow. It is the snow is starting at four o'clock in the morning.
BP: 00:10
Right. Four or five.
IG: 00:11
Four or five. We will figure it out. So, for the record, please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are.
BP: 00:35
My name is Barry Polsky. I was born on November 25, 1946 and we are in Somerville, Massachusetts.
IG: 00:48
Where did you grow up?
BP: 00:50
I grew up in Brooklyn, New York.
IG: 00:53
And tell us a little bit about your upbringing and what was the occupation of your parents?
BP: 01:04
Yeah, so my parents were both immigrants from the Soviet Union. They both came here in the 1920s separately, I was amazed when I found out, when I was young that they met here and they were both from the Soviet Union. And my- neither of them had much education. My father eventually became the manager of what we used to call an appetizing store, which is a little grocery store that sells smoked fish like lox and herring and kippered salmon. And he had these big jars of candy and big blocks of halva and cheese. It was a wonderful store. It was on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, and he managed the store for 25 years, and when he was 60, he bought the store from the owner, and he owned it for six years, until he passed away. My mother was a housewife when we were out of the house. I think my mother got some jobs here and there, but basically, she was a housewife and raised us, and we were, I would say, lower middle class.
IG: 02:22
Where did you go to high school?
BP: 02:23
Midwood High School in Flatbush.
IG: 02:26
I know where that is. Did your parents encourage your pursuing a college degree?
BP: 02:36
It was mandatory.
IG: 02:38
Mandatory.
BP: 02:39
Yes. It was just assumed. Unlike my two older sisters, who could have done whatever they wanted, my parents did not push them in any direction. I was assumed. It was assumed I would go to college, and in fact, later on, when I left graduate school, my father said, I will be disappointed if you do not get a PhD.
IG: 03:01
So, is this what you did?
BP: 03:03
Yes, I went to University of Rochester for graduate school in brain research, psychology and brain research.
IG: 03:11
Oh, my goodness.
BP: 03:12
And I got a master's degree. And then at some point, I decided that graduate school was taking too much out of my personal life to continue, and so I just left after a master's degree. And actually, you may not, you probably do not know this, I came back to Binghamton, and I was a laboratory teaching assistant in psychology for a year and a half at Binghamton.
IG: 03:41
So, what was your occupation, throughout the years?
BP: 03:46
I have had many careers, several careers. So, after I was the teaching assistant at Binghamton for a year and a half, I went back to New York City, and I was briefly a programmer, computer programmer for AT&T.
IG: 03:49
Tell us about it. What years were the-
BP: 04:05
1970 I believe. And then in (19)71 I got a job as a research assistant at Hoffmann-La Roche [F. Hoffmann-La Roche Ltd], the big pharmaceutical company. And I worked there as a research assistant for eight years, laboratory research. Then I went to Israel for 10 weeks, and when I got back to New York, yeah, when I got back to New York, I realized I just did not like New York City anymore, and I knew some people in Boston, and I just up and went to Boston. I decided I want to live in Boston, and I have never regretted it. I love it here. And I kind of bounced around. Did not quite know what I wanted to do. I was a bus boy. I was the- I did various things. And then I settled into being a full time Boston cab driver for about five years. And when I was approaching 40, I decided that I needed a real career, and I read a book called 90 jobs for the (19)90s, and it said that computer programmers would be in great demand. So, I went back to computer programming. I went to Harvard Extension School and got a computer science degree, and then I worked as a computer programmer for about 15 years.
IG: 05:36
Can I ask what area I mean, did your programming in-in-in the (19)70s, in the early (19)70s, [crosstalk] inform your, did you do-
BP: 05:47
I did cobalt programming in the (19)70, business programming, cobalt program, right in graduate school, in the program at Harvard Extension, I learned C, not C plus-plus just C.
IG: 06:01
Just C.
BP: 06:03
And I got a job with a firm in Rhode Island doing kind of customer service and a little programming. So, what was their niche?
IG: 06:10
I see.
BP: 06:10
I did that for about a year and a half, and then I was offered a job up here in Cambridge with a company called Computer Sports Systems. And they were very interesting company. They had an interesting niche. They invented automatic scoring for bowling alleys. If you go bowling-
IG: 06:34
Yeah.
BP: 06:34
You do not have to score by hand.
IG: 06:36
Oh!
BP: 06:37
There is a machine that detects the number of pins you knock down, and it projects your score overhead, and that is on all with software. And this company invented that software that did the automatic.
IG: 06:50
So, what was your role in [crosstalk] helped design.
BP: 06:53
I helped design and maintain those programs.
IG: 06:56
Oh! That is very interesting. Who were some of your clients?
BP: 07:03
Oh, well, we worked with Brunswick, which was the main, one of the main manufacturers of bowling equipment. I think I heard of- Yeah, and actually bowling alleys, big bowling alleys, would be our clients. And after a while, there was not a lot of business anymore for that. So, they tried a big project to get the company going again. The project petered out. And when that project failed, they laid off just every programmer, except one, and I was laid off. And-
IG: 07:40
And what year was this?
BP: 07:41
19- Let us see, I think 2003,2003 or (20)04, and I did not have another an appetite to pound the pavement looking for another job where I looked at a computer screen all day.
IG: 08:01
Right.
BP: 08:02
And so, I wanted more interaction. So, after doing a couple of stops and starts, I decided to become a teacher. And eventually I landed a job as a high school math teacher at Everett High School, which is a suburb of Boston.
IG: 08:19
Did you go through a special program?
BP: 08:21
I tried to get into a couple of training programs, and I could not get in. But in one of the interviewers said, you know, you have an interesting resume, just send your resume out to people; do not go to a training program. So, I- the Boston Globe had an ad for Everett High School wanting math teachers. I sent in my resume, and two weeks before the years begin, they dropped me in for an interview, and they hired me the next day.
IG: 08:47
Oh, wonderful.
BP: 08:48
So, I sort of started right off the street, and I worked there for 10 years.
IG: 08:55
Did you enjoy the experience? I did. I thought was very rewarding. It was stressful, and it was the hardest job that I have ever had, especially the first year, because I was checking homework one day, and I, you know, somebody was not getting it. And I said, "Well, did you read the book?" And he said, "I cannot learn from the book." So, I decided the book was not good enough, and I wrote my own book of notes for all the lessons that year that I distributed to the students. So that I was working, you asked my wife I was working day and night, but I got it done, and later on, it became less and less work as I had my lessons planned. Lesson plans- what grades did you teach?
BP: 09:40
Pre-calculus, juniors and seniors.
IG: 09:45
And what kind of neighborhood is Everett?
BP: 09:47
Very diverse.
IG: 09:49
Very diverse.
BP: 09:50
Working class.
IG: 09:51
Working class.
BP: 09:51
Yeah. Um, basically working class and diverse in terms of their Haitians and Brazilians, and Central Americans and African Americans, and, you know, probably maybe 50 to 60 percent white, and then the rest very diverse. And it was very rewarding, but toward the end of my 10 years, it became more and more stressful, and I think the main reason was cell phones in the classroom.
IG: 10:24
Was what?
BP: 10:24
Cell phone.
IG: 10:25
Oh, yes.
BP: 10:27
You just could not get the students away from their cell phones. And I would have a rule.
IG: 10:33
Right.
BP: 10:33
But it would be very hard to enforce it, because if they start, if they finished their work, I would- they would- cell phones would come out. I would say, no cell phones. They would say, I finished my work.
IG: 10:43
Right.
BP: 10:43
It was very hard to control.
IG: 10:45
Yeah.
BP: 10:46
So, I was- when I retired after 10 years, I had a small pension.
IG: 10:50
When-when- so when did you retire?
BP: 10:51
Okay. Yeah. So, I was hired in 2006 and I worked until, I guess, June of 2016.
IG: 11:01
So that is very recent.
BP: 11:03
Yeah, I am retired about a year and a half, almost two years.
IG: 11:06
So how are you enjoying retirement?
BP: 11:10
I love it.
IG: 11:11
You love it.
BP: 11:12
I love it. Mainly. One of the main reasons I love it is that I found the perfect retirement job.
IG: 11:19
Which- what is- and what is that?
BP: 11:22
I am a big baseball fan and I am a Big Red Sox fan.
IG: 11:26
Yeah.
BP: 11:27
I have become a tour guide at Fenway Park.
IG: 11:30
Oh, wow.
BP: 11:32
Fenway Park gives tours to thousands of people a year.
IG: 11:36
How wonderful.
BP: 11:37
And I am one of the tour guides there.
IG: 11:42
That is wonderful. That is wonderful that you found it.
BP: 11:45
And then to make some extra money, I drive Uber.
IG: 11:48
Oh, good for you.
BP: 11:50
So, I am enjoying retirement.
IG: 11:52
Yeah.
BP: 11:52
Not quite as much money as I was making when I finished teaching.
IG: 11:56
Yeah, you have a beautiful home. You live in a lovely area.
BP: 12:00
Well, I lucked out in many ways. When I married Randy, she had a first husband, and she was able to buy this home in the 1980s when it was affordable.
IG: 12:11
Right.
BP: 12:11
So.
IG: 12:12
Where did you meet your wife?
BP: 12:15
We were acquaintances for a number of years in a Jewish congregation of the persuasion, called Jewish renewal. It is kind of like an alternative.
IG: 12:25
Where is it based?
BP: 12:27
When we met, it was based in Watertown, but we meet in rented spaces. Currently, we are based in Waltham.
IG: 12:35
I know.
BP: 12:38
And we were acquaintances for quite a while.
IG: 12:40
Yeah.
BP: 12:40
And in 2004 Randy and another friend, Mary were going to New Hampshire to canvas for John Kerry-
IG: 12:49
Yeah.
BP: 12:50
-and they asked me to come along if I wanted to come along. And I did. And at one point, Mary took a walk, and Randy and I were left in a diner talking, and we hit it off and started dating. And-
IG: 13:02
That is wonderful. So, it is a relatively recent marriage.
BP: 13:07
That is right, we were married. Actually, we were together for eight years before we got married. Oh, so we were only got married a little over three years ago-
IG: 13:17
Only three.
BP: 13:18
-and it was my first marriage at the age of 67.
IG: 13:21
It is what?
BP: 13:21
My first marriage at the age of 67.
IG: 13:26
Bless your heart.
BP: 13:27
Thank you.
IG: 13:27
It is wonderful.
BP: 13:28
Thank you. I am very happy.
IG: 13:32
Wonderful. That is, that is really it. It warms my heart. So let us return a little less backtrack and return to your college days.
BP: 13:47
Yes.
IG: 13:47
So, I mean, do you still keep in touch with your classmates from Binghamton?
BP: 13:54
There is one small group of classmates that I have always kept in touch with.
IG: 13:58
Right.
BP: 14:02
We were in the same dorm. We were in Whitney together.
IG: 14:06
Right.
BP: 14:07
And there were like three or four couples that we keep in touch-
IG: 14:20
Yeah.
BP: 14:20
Since then, it is not a wide range of students-
IG: 14:25
Not a wide range [crosstalk]
BP: 14:26
But-
IG: 14:26
Do you ever get together?
BP: 14:28
Um, maybe on big reunions, like I get together with them on big reunions. I think I saw them on the 50th and the 40th reunion. The union now passed its 50th.
IG: 14:41
Yeah, I remember you at the reunion.
BP: 14:44
Yeah.
IG: 14:45
On campus.
BP: 14:46
Yeah. But they get, generally get together on New Year's Eve in Pennsylvania, at somebody's house. But I usually do not make that. But we said, you know, holiday- [crosstalk]
IG: 15:00
-together with the Strauss's?
BP: 15:01
Yes.
IG: 15:02
We interview them.
BP: 15:04
Yes-yes, wonderful people.
IG: 15:06
Because I- they mentioned a New Year's tradition in Pennsylvania.
BP: 15:12
Right.
IG: 15:12
That is, that is why I thought, Okay, so tell me about the campus when you first arrived. What was it like?
BP: 15:24
Well, I love say, I always tell people when I got there, it was Harpur College.
IG: 15:31
Yeah.
BP: 15:32
And it had 1600 students. When I left, it was State University of New York at Binghamton, and it had 6000 students. There was mud and construction everywhere all during those four years. Tt was really an explosion.
IG: 15:49
So, it really went through not even an evolution, but a revolution-
BP: 15:54
Yes.
IG: 15:54
-for four years that you were there?
BP: 15:56
Right.
IG: 15:57
What did you study at Binghamton?
BP: 16:00
I went in thinking I wanted to be a math major.
IG: 16:03
Right.
BP: 16:04
But I took calculus, AP calculus in high school, so I did not take- have to take math the first freshman year. And during the freshman and sophomore year, I kind of had an intellectual awakening, and I decided that people were the most interesting things to study. So, I majored in psychology. Now I expected to study Freud and abnormal psychology and things like that, but the program at Binghamton was primarily experimental psychology, so I studied rats.
IG: 16:11
Right. But that really-
BP: 16:39
It was okay.
IG: 16:41
Awakened your interest in the in the dis, in the subject.
BP: 16:45
That is right.
IG: 16:46
Who were some of the- do you remember some of the names of the faculty-
BP: 16:52
Oh, that [crosstalk]
IG: 16:54
-awakened this interest in you?
BP: 16:55
Yeah. Well, my friend- my first psychology teacher, was Andrew Strouthes. Um, but I had been awakened even before I started taking psychology.
IG: 17:10
By whom? By what?
BP: 17:12
Well, I know that during the summer before my sophomore year, I read William James' psychology. I would get a book on psychology, and this one was called Psychology, so I decided to read it. And I was reading some philosophy. I took philosophy in my sophomore year, and loved it, and I decided I wanted to be a therapist. So, this kind of psychology that I was studying as a sophomore was not really what I was expecting.
IG: 17:46
Yeah.
BP: 17:46
But I still liked it. Then at some point around my junior year, when I- during my-my sophomore year, things got difficult emotionally for me. I struggled with depression some, and I- at one point decided that I had too many of my own problems that I could not figure out to help somebody else with their problems. So, I went from wanting to be a therapist to wanting to do brain research [crosstalk]
IG: 18:23
That is pretty self-aware, I would say, for a young person.
BP: 18:32
Mm-Hmm.
IG: 18:32
So, did you feel supported by the community at Binghamton during the harder times? Or did you have friends that you could reach out to?
BP: 18:45
Um, I was not good at reaching out.
IG: 18:48
No.
BP: 18:49
I was not good at getting support. I think I pretty much carried things on my own. Yeah.
IG: 18:59
So, do you see yourself during those years as a loner, or were you, you know, in a group of friends? And...
BP: 19:11
I would say I had friends; I had a small group of friends.
IG: 19:17
And-
BP: 19:18
And I was- there was something that was not quite a fraternity. It was more like a social club. It was called STO.
IG: 19:26
what was that? Tell us about that?
BP: 19:32
I think there were fraternities, and this was like a fraternity light.
IG: 19:37
Yeah.
BP: 19:39
And it was a little easier to get into a little less prestigious, a little less, you know, rules, and I liked hanging out with those folks.
IG: 19:52
So, what would you do? Would you just, you know, hang out.
BP: 19:57
Wow. Uh, I do not really remember too much else about that. Just go meetings, yeah, just meetings and talk.
IG: 20:08
You had meetings and talks.
BP: 20:09
Right. With uh, my- this girl, close group of friends that I had-
IG: 20:13
Yeah.
BP: 20:15
I remember going out to Sharkies and having speedies.
IG: 20:19
In town?
BP: 20:20
In town.
IG: 20:20
In town. And did you have a car? Did you- did somebody have a car?
BP: 20:26
Somebody must have had a car.
IG: 20:27
Somebody must have had a car.
BP: 20:28
Yeah, I did not have a car in college.
IG: 20:30
Yeah.
BP: 20:30
So, somebody must have had a car.
IG: 20:34
You know so-so what were what was recreational? What was recreation for you, outside of Sharkies and the fraternity, or were you studying all the time?
BP: 20:48
I was studying a lot.
IG: 20:49
You were studying a lot.
BP: 20:54
One thing that comes to mind when you say what was recreation is the first time that I was introduced to smoking grass. [laughs] Now you have to know that Binghamton was kind of like a-
IG: 21:09
Party school? No?
BP: 21:11
No, it was a druggie school [crosstalk] as its reputation was as a druggie school.
IG: 21:17
That is interesting.
BP: 21:18
And a lot of us had our first exposure to grass and acid at Binghamton.
IG: 21:25
Was that kind of inspired by Timothy Leary?
BP: 21:30
Yes-yes.
IG: 21:30
And that was connected to your interest in psychology, right?
BP: 21:35
Probably, I mean, it was more of interest in just having- wanting more experiences, wanting different experiences. I did have- I was not an acid head. I had one trip that was pretty intense, and one time when I took like a half a dose that did not do very much.
IG: 21:59
Excuse me.
BP: 22:00
I took like, a half a dose of acid.
IG: 22:02
Yeah.
BP: 22:03
And it did not do very much.
IG: 22:04
Yeah.
BP: 22:05
So, I would say I had one experience.
IG: 22:09
And what was the experience like, if you do not mind sharing.
BP: 22:12
Not at all. It was pretty-pretty interesting. It was, it was, it was good. At one point, I just felt like, this is great. I just felt so good. And colors were very-very vibrant. And I remember-
IG: 22:30
Were you sitting, standing, walking? Do- Where were you walking?
BP: 22:32
Both I would, I would mostly walking. I remember- I remember going into a room.
IG: 22:40
In resi- in their residence?
BP: 22:41
In the dorm, right. With a rug kind of looking like this.
IG: 22:45
Yeah.
BP: 22:46
And the pattern of the rug looked like it would rai- it raised up and started swirling around. [laughs] It was a psychedelic experience. But some of my insecurities were exacerbated, also. I remember walking during the trip, walking with a friend, and saying to him, you know, I am afraid. I am really boring you. So that was [crosstalk]
IG: 23:13
Yeah, that is interesting. I never heard that. So, in the aftermath, what do you think of this experience? I mean-
BP: 23:25
I am glad I had-
IG: 23:26
Yeah.
BP: 23:27
I am glad I had it. I do not think it did any damage.
IG: 23:29
No.
BP: 23:29
I did not do it enough to really do any damage. And I smoked several times, listened to music, but I never really developed a desire to make it a lifestyle or do it a lot, and now, as an adult, the few times that I have smoked with friends over the years, I do not like the way it makes me feel at all, so I do not do it. I am trying to remember whether we used to go to basketball games. We might have gone to basketball games.
IG: 24:02
So-so, you would get, you know, I mean, you would get together with your friends. Do you remember some of the conversations? Would you talk about politics, the war? You know, the war must have been present on everyone's mind.
BP: 24:17
The war was a big thing. The war was a big thing. I remember either as a sophomore, as a junior, reading a book about the history of the War of Vietnam, and just deciding right then and there that it was unjust. It was a really terrible war. And I remember a group of us drove down to Washington, DC for one of the marches. And we were, we were very against the war, and there was a bond there. We-we...
IG: 24:51
Do remember- what year the protest in Washington? Do you remember?
BP: 24:55
I am guessing 1966. I am guessing.
IG: 25:00
And you know, was it many students, or just your friends, or who went from Binghamton? Do you remember?
BP: 25:09
Well, we were in a car, so [crosstalk]
IG: 25:12
It must not [inaudible] so large.
BP: 25:14
-very much, but there were other people that definitely went down.
IG: 25:18
Right-right.
BP: 25:19
I do not remember whether any busses of students went down, I am not sure. But I mean, I can feel the emotion of that and even now, how against the war we were and how much we wanted to fight it.
IG: 25:34
How was it like being in Washington with this sea of young people, I imagine.
BP: 25:39
Yeah, it was great. It was really energizing, and it felt like we had to express our opposition. But it was frustrating also, because we did not really know whether this was going to make have an impact, although, in retrospect, it certainly had an impact in Johnson not running for a second term.
IG: 26:02
Right.
BP: 26:03
So, we had sudden effect there.
IG: 26:05
Do you feel that you were politicized during your undergraduate career? Do you think you are a political or was it just that one instance?
BP: 26:22
That is a good question. I certainly am very interested in politics. I mean, I met- I got together with Randy going up to New Hampshire to Canvas for John Kerry. So, when it- when I am and I am very energized about the 2018-
IG: 26:42
By the way, went to a fundraiser for John Kerry.
BP: 26:45
Oh, right.
IG: 26:48
Yeah.
BP: 26:49
I am very energized about the 2018 midterms and the 2020 election. I want to do everything I can. But I would not say that most of my life, I have been that political, you know, I have had my views and I have contributed money at various times, but I cannot say that I have participated in a lot of organizing.
IG: 27:13
So do you think that Binghamton was kind of a foundational experience for you, or it was just something that you went through to get a degree.
BP: 27:25
I certainly think it had an influence. I mean it, it put me in the direction of brain research and experimental psychology, and got me headed off and in that in that direction for the first 10 years of my life.
IG: 27:51
Even though it was not really the psychology, you know, direction that you-
BP: 27:59
envision of beginning.
IG: 28:00
Yea.,
BP: 28:00
That is right.
IG: 28:03
So, you know, there were women at Binghamton. [laughter] You know, did you date anybody?
BP: 28:19
Well, this is, yeah, this is, this is very important part of my history.
IG: 28:27
Yeah.
BP: 28:28
So, I remember walking along near Whitney in my freshman year, thinking, you know, I am really, really happy, as long as I do not think about girls like I must have had some fear, some insecurity, that-that was troubling me. But, I mean, I was basically a pretty happy person. There was something called "Winter Weekend."
IG: 29:08
Yeah, what was that?
BP: 29:09
It was something that I think the fraternities and the social clubs ran. It was the middle of the winter term, and it involved parties and stuff, and it was organized over- around the weekend, and people had dates for it. So, I decided I wanted to go to that. And I had been hanging around a few of people, and I asked one of the girls I was hanging out with to go. Her name was Mary Jean and so we went. had a pretty good time. I did not much, have much a dating life in high school, so I during that week. I made out for the first time. But at the end of the weekend, we were on the way back to the dorm, and I decided that was it. I did not really want to see her anymore.
IG: 29:09
You did not what.
BP: 29:12
Did not really want to see her anymore after that weekend. So, we get up to the door of the dorm, and before I say anything, she says, "Would like to have lunch tomorrow?" And I ended up saying, "Well, okay." And I ended up saying, "Well, okay," for the next six months-- always feeling like I did not really want to be in this relationship, but not knowing how to break it up.
IG: 30:41
Right.
BP: 30:43
And that lasted until, I guess it was trimester. So summer was in the end of June- was that that semester, that trimester, and then summer was July, August, September, October. So, I finally did say- she was from Buffalo, and I was from New York, so I finally did say at the end, "I do not think I want to see you when we get back."
IG: 31:07
That what
BP: 31:08
That when we get back, I do not think I want to continue dating, yeah, and she accepted it, but then over the summer, much to my surprise, to start to miss her, and when we got back, we sort of hung out for a little bit, and then we started going out again. But this time it was very different. I came, kind of became dependent on her.
IG: 31:33
Yeah.
BP: 31:34
And it did not really work well. And during this time, I find myself getting depressed. And so, this whole-- I think when I look back on it, one of the reasons I became depressed is that during that time, when I was with her, in the first semester, I was not really being myself, I was not being true to myself, and I kind of got out of sorts that way.
IG: 31:59
How? I mean, how did you it is a hard question, but I mean, how did you being yourself, meaning-meaning that you were not telling her what you felt
BP: 32:11
Right and sort of like being who I thought you wanted me to be.
IG: 32:16
Yeah.
BP: 32:16
Instead of being who I was,
IG: 32:17
I see, I see.
BP: 32:19
And I did not really date anybody else that seriously for the rest of the college.
IG: 32:24
Did you part as friends? Or did you never speak to her again, or when you finally parted company?
BP: 32:32
You mean in the sophomore year? It was somewhat acrimonious. I think, you know, I, I think we were civil to each other after that, but never close. And as far as you know, I dated here and there the rest of the time, but never really-
IG: 32:35
Yeah. Yeah.
BP: 32:59
-hooked up with anyone.
IG: 33:01
Do you think that she was very career oriented, or was she, your former- that first girlfriend? Was she looking for a husband?
BP: 33:13
[inaudible] yeah. I think she was looking for a husband.
IG: 33:19
Do you think that these were the expectations of young women at the time, even those who had gotten into Harpur College, or were they looking toward- well, I mean, you cannot say, you cannot generalize-
BP: 33:36
Yeah, I cannot generalize exactly.
IG: 33:39
But she was looking-
BP: 33:39
I think she was looking for a husband.
IG: 33:41
Yeah.
BP: 33:42
And I think that it was a time when expectations were changing for women.
IG: 33:46
Were changing.
BP: 33:47
You know-
IG: 33:49
Well, you mentioned that, you know, there was an expectation from your parents. That you would go on-
BP: 33:54
Right.
IG: 33:54
-with your studies, but your sisters could do anything that they liked.
BP: 33:54
Right.
IG: 33:54
So that -that-that is my answer, really.
BP: 33:54
Right. That is right.
IG: 33:56
At Harpur College, which is, which, I mean, had an excellent reputation, or, I mean, it had a reputation of being a very rigorous school. I do not want to put words into your mouth. [laughs]
BP: 34:18
No, it was yes, it was.
IG: 34:21
It was.
BP: 34:21
I mean, once my- one sister did not go to college.
IG: 34:25
Right.
BP: 34:26
And one sister went to college for one year and then met someone and got married.
IG: 34:31
Right.
BP: 34:32
But, you know, the women that were at Harpur College already-
IG: 34:36
Right.
BP: 34:37
I think we are a little more career origin.
IG: 34:39
A little more career origin, but not much.
BP: 34:42
Yeah, I think not. That is right, they still were kind of transitioning from looking for a husband to thinking, "Oh, maybe I can have my own career."
IG: 34:56
So how do you think- how did the transition manifest for women that you noticed during that time? Were they becoming- what more career oriented? Were they more, you know, did they, I mean, did kids have sexual relations at the time?
BP: 35:23
I would not know. [laughs]
IG: 35:24
You would not know. You would not know. You would not know. So, your-your-your buddies and you were not talking about that?
BP: 35:30
Oh well, yeah, I had one-one friend of mine definitely talked about his kind of conquests. And I think I had a roommate who had a girlfriend, and they were sleeping together. Oh, you know, it reminds me of the Rule of, you know, a book in the door-door had to be open the width of a book, yes, and one foot on the floor.
IG: 36:03
Yes-yes-yes. I have heard.
BP: 36:06
And-
IG: 36:06
So, did you witness that at all?
BP: 36:10
Well, we talked about those- Yeah. -those rules. But I-I mean, I never attempted to sleep with someone while I was in college. I see so I would not know. I never tried to bend those rules, but I do, I am sure that there were other my friends that did.
IG: 36:31
I see. So-so how did your girlfriend from that time, and does she have a name?
BP: 36:40
Mary Jean.
IG: 36:41
Mary Jean. How did your girlfriend and you spend time together?
BP: 36:48
Well, we would have almost every meal together.
IG: 36:50
Yeah.
BP: 36:52
And we would study together.
IG: 36:53
Right.
BP: 36:54
And, you know, we would make out.
IG: 36:57
Yeah.
BP: 36:58
Uh, and maybe occasionally see a movie if somebody had a car, or maybe if there was a movie shown on campus.
IG: 37:12
Did you mention Mary Jean to your parents? I mean, did you-
BP: 37:16
Oh yes.
IG: 37:17
Yes.
BP: 37:19
Mary Jane was not Jewish, and I did mention that I was going out with her, and again, my father was not happy.
IG: 37:36
Yeah.
BP: 37:36
Yeah, that was uh-
IG: 37:39
That might have had an influence.
BP: 37:42
Could have had an influence, yeah.
IG: 37:44
When you went home to- for the summers, what did you do? How would you spend your time?
BP: 37:48
I would get a job.
IG: 37:50
Yeah. Where would you work?
BP: 37:51
I mean, it was an advantage that it was a trimester with July, August, September and October, because I- you generally lied and said I was permanent. So let us see. In (19)64 I got a job at the New York World's Fair.
IG: 38:10
Oh, I remember that.
BP: 38:11
Yeah, and I had the most boring job in the world.
IG: 38:15
What did you do?
BP: 38:16
I was a Pinkerton Guard, and I was stationed between two escalators, and my job was to push a button if anything happened in emergency. So, the most interesting part of my day was when every once in a while, somebody asked me directions to go somewhere, but it was very pretty boring job.
IG: 38:37
What other, what other jobs did you have?
BP: 38:40
The next year, I worked in a purse factory. I was like stock boy, and I worked there for several months, and then when I told my boss that I was leaving, he said, "Oh, I am really sorry. I was about to promote you." So, they wanted me to stay, but they did not realize that I was a college boy.
IG: 39:04
I did not ask you an important question, why did you choose Binghamton to study?
BP: 39:12
Basically, it was my third choice. It was my [crosstalk]
IG: 39:15
What were your first two choices?
BP: 39:16
Cornell and University of Rochester. So, Cornell, I did not get into and Rochester, I was on the waiting list.
IG: 39:23
So, were these known as math schools?
BP: 39:28
No-
IG: 39:29
[crosstalk] programs?
BP: 39:29
They just were-
IG: 39:31
Well, I mean, Cornell is for everything.
BP: 39:33
Right-right, and, but I did know in my senior year in high school that I wanted to leave New York. I did not want to go to Brooklyn College. I did not want to stay at home, and so I figured out a way to pay for everything myself. So, I walked into the kitchen in my home to my parents and said, "These are the three schools I am applying to, Binghamton, Rochester, Cornell." I did not give them a choice of Brooklyn College.
IG: 39:50
That is fantastic.
BP: 40:00
I just knew I could pay for it. I got a regent scholarship that paid for tuition totally, which was all of $400 a trimester.
IG: 40:00
Yeah, times were different.
BP: 40:01
Right. Right. I got a federal loan that basically paid for my room and board at school, and I did summer work to pick up, make my expenses, so I really was not dependent on [crosstalk]
IG: 40:25
That is very enterprise. But what did they say anyway? I mean, What-what? I mean, you kind of put your foot down, and this is my-
BP: 40:36
They did not have much of a choice. They-they said, "Are you sure?"
IG: 40:42
What can they say?
BP: 40:48
But I was very glad I went to Binghamton.
IG: 40:53
So-so had you had your parents heard of Binghamton before you announced that you were, you know, this was your third choice.
BP: 41:07
I do not think they knew much about Binghamton Harpur College at the time.
IG: 41:13
Yeah, Harpur College.
BP: 41:14
Right. I do not think they knew much about it. But by the way, you know what? I tell people that I went to Harpur College- They would say, "Harvard?"
IG: 41:22
Yeah. Yeah.
BP: 41:22
I would say, "No-no, Harpur College, it is in Binghamton." And they would say, "Way down in Alabama?"
IG: 41:35
Yeah, I know I when I told my daughter I was accepting a job at Binghamton. She thought, "Birmingham?"
BP: 41:43
Yeah, yeah.
IG: 41:45
But Harpur College had a reputation, and before I mean, do you know that it was you know, what were its strengths? What-what-what did you know about it before you- why did you apply to Harpur College rather than to SUNY Buffalo, for example?
BP: 42:06
I think it had the reputation of being the best state school. I think that was the reputation, and I did well in high school.
IG: 42:15
Yeah.
BP: 42:16
And I was fairly sure I could get in, but I thought that I was worth the best state school.
IG: 42:25
Yeah.
BP: 42:26
You know.
IG: 42:28
Did you visit before- did you visit Harpur College before your acceptance or, I mean, did you first arrive to campus on the first day of school?
BP: 42:41
I do not remember visiting.
IG: 42:42
You do not remember visiting.
BP: 42:43
I think, I think I just [crosstalk]
IG: 42:44
You just went into it cold.
BP: 42:46
Yeah, I think I did.
IG: 42:48
And how did it strike you? I mean, you were a city boy. How did the country strike you? What did it look like?
BP: 42:58
Well, my, one of my memories of the first day of being there, my parents brought me up there, and I remember my parents leaving the dormitory, and I think I looked out the window and saw them, and they saw me as they were leaving. My father went. So, you know, they were, it was hard for them to-to-
IG: 43:34
Because you were a tight knit family?
BP: 43:36
Yeah.
IG: 43:37
Yeah.
BP: 43:39
And uh, but I think I adjusted pretty fast. And uh, hmm-
IG: 43:51
I mean, what? I mean, it is a country, it is fresh air, it is, I mean, it is-
BP: 43:57
Well.
IG: 43:58
-pretty, it was pretty rural at the time.
BP: 44:01
Yes, it was. It was not until I was at Binghamton before I had any understanding of why people took hikes-
IG: 44:09
Yeah.
BP: 44:09
-you know. But until then, I really just did not understand. Did not get it. But the friends that I made were from Buffalo.
IG: 44:18
Yeah.
BP: 44:19
And they had more of a non-city, um, feel a non-city. They understood what it was like to not be in a city, and so they kind of introduced me to walks in the country, but it was I had to get used to it, but I understood that I was in college and I was not in the city anymore. I was there to learn, and I think I adjusted pretty fast.
IG: 44:52
You adapted very quickly.
BP: 44:54
Yeah, and I liked my roommate, that was very important too. Sort of bond with my roommate.
IG: 45:02
Did you stay with the same roommate for four years?
BP: 45:05
No, I was with him for at least the first year, and possibly two years. Yeah, possibly two years that I was in a suite with several people.
IG: 45:21
With how many people?
BP: 45:23
I think probably four or five.
IG: 45:25
Yeah.
BP: 45:26
Yeah.
IG: 45:27
So, did you have your own kitchen? And-
BP: 45:30
Yes, I think so.
IG: 45:31
You think so. So, did that mean that somebody with a car went to town to buy groceries?
BP: 45:40
I am not going to be much help here.
IG: 45:41
Okay, you do not remember. Do you remember- but you-you would go to the cafeteria?
BP: 45:46
Yes, definitely.
IG: 45:47
So maybe there was not a kitchen?
BP: 45:49
Right. Could be. And I do remember liking hanging out in the student center.
IG: 45:55
At the Student Center?
BP: 45:56
Right.
IG: 45:57
And what- where was that, and what was that like?
BP: 46:02
That was by what we call the esplanade. Is it still the student center now? The student union. That is called the student union, right.
IG: 46:14
I see.
BP: 46:14
But we called it the student center. We would go down and get a snack.
IG: 46:19
Yeah.
BP: 46:20
Get a burger or something. And uh-
IG: 46:24
Did people, you know, I am just getting, you know- did you know- the outside time, the you know, the political climate, the issues of the day-
BP: 46:41
Yeah.
IG: 46:41
-did you discuss them?
BP: 46:44
Yes-yes.
IG: 46:44
So, what-what were some of the things that you were discussing-
BP: 46:47
Well, mainly the war.
IG: 46:48
The mainly the war.
BP: 46:49
Yeah. Now I remember being in the student center when the Six Day War in Israel broke out, but I know the timing is right, because I think that was in June (19)67 and I graduated in (19)67 and I must have graduated in- I do not know why I would have been there in June (19)67 but I remember-
IG: 47:27
Maybe for the graduation ceremony?
BP: 47:29
Could be, could be, but I remember feeling like I want to go over to Israel and fight. You know, I remember SDS.
IG: 47:35
Yeah. Right.
BP: 47:41
And-
IG: 47:42
But you were not part of it.
BP: 47:42
I was not part of that, and I was not as radical as that.
IG: 47:45
Yeah. Are any of your friends part of SDS?
BP: 47:50
Not I remember. No, I do not think so. Um-
IG: 48:00
Was there an anxiety about being drafted among your friends?
BP: 48:04
Yes, definitely.
IG: 48:07
Right. So, were a lot of your friends thinking of going on to graduate schools?
BP: 48:15
Uh huh? Definitely.
IG: 48:17
Yeah.
BP: 48:18
Definitely.
IG: 48:20
So, you know what- I am just wondering also the student composition were- you said you mentioned that, you know, there were students from Buffalo, but would you think that the majority were from New York City, Long Island?
BP: 48:37
And yes, I think the majority were from New York City, Long Island, definitely.
IG: 48:45
But you- did you gravitate to the New York City and Long Island kids, or to the Buffalo kids?
BP: 48:52
Well, my friends turned out to be from Buffalo.
IG: 48:56
Oh, that is just happened to be.
BP: 48:58
Yeah. I am not sure why.
IG: 49:00
Yeah.
BP: 49:01
They were in my dorm.
IG: 49:02
Yeah. Did you ever visit their family's house?
BP: 49:07
No.
IG: 49:09
Did anybody visit your family? Do you think?
BP: 49:13
No, I do not think so.
IG: 49:14
No. Well, do you remember any of the- how are we doing for time we still have it is, it is only 4:20.
BP: 49:28
Yeah, we are fine.
IG: 49:29
Rather, 4:20.
BP: 49:30
Yeah, we are fine.
IG: 49:31
Um, did your parents have any expectations of you going on to get a job after college or...
BP: 49:42
No, they wanted me to get a graduate degree.
IG: 49:45
A graduate degree.
BP: 49:46
Yeah.
IG: 49:49
So, did you get any direction from your advice- did you have a faculty advisor? Did you have a mentor who advised you about where to apply or you know, what was your interaction like with, sort of the academic community, I mean, with the faculty?
BP: 50:10
Oh, another faculty member that I remember-
IG: 50:13
Yeah.
BP: 50:14
-was Peter Donovick.
IG: 50:15
Yeah.
BP: 50:17
And I think he encouraged me to go to graduate school in physiological psychology. Now there was another faculty member, Dan Fallon, but I do not remember whether I came- I became, I became close with him, but I do not remember whether it was as an undergraduate or after I had come back and was a graduate- I was a laboratory assistant.
IG: 50:42
Yeah.
BP: 50:43
I am not sure which period.
IG: 50:45
But these three-faculty member, these three professors, had an impact.
BP: 50:50
Yes.
IG: 50:51
Did you ever stay in touch with them after graduating?
BP: 50:54
No.
IG: 50:55
No.
BP: 50:58
Jim- trying to remember whether-
IG: 51:04
What-what do you think you know? Why did they advise the schools that they did? I mean, what you said this, that one of the professors advised you to-
BP: 51:16
[crosstalk] to go on, to pursue-
IG: 51:17
To go on. Yeah. I mean, what do they think of your work?
BP: 51:22
I think they thought it was that I was had a lot of potential.
IG: 51:25
You had a lot of in-in research?
BP: 51:29
Right in research.
IG: 51:30
In psychological.
BP: 51:30
Right. Because that is what the track that I was on.
IG: 51:32
Yeah, I understand. And so, were there any small victories that you remember of as you know, a research assistant during those days. Where would you conduct the research?
BP: 51:49
Well, I did a senior project.
IG: 51:51
I see.
BP: 51:52
And that was, that was really uh-
IG: 51:55
What was a senior project?
BP: 51:57
I studied the circadian, circadian rhythms of rats. And it was an ambitious project.
IG: 52:06
Yeah.
BP: 52:08
What I did was I had rats in an activity wheel.
IG: 52:14
Right.
BP: 52:15
So, they could, they could step out from their cage and run in an activity wheel whenever they wanted.
IG: 52:20
Right.
BP: 52:20
And if you tracked the activity, you noticed-
IG: 52:25
Right.
BP: 52:25
-that they had more activity, I think during the-[inaudible] nocturnal or not.
IG: 52:33
Right.
BP: 52:34
But they might have been more active at night.
IG: 52:38
Right.
BP: 52:38
And less active during the day-
IG: 52:40
Yes.
BP: 52:42
-or and then I tried to manipulate the lighting.
IG: 52:44
Right.
BP: 52:45
So, I put the lights on when they were most active.
IG: 52:48
Right.
BP: 52:49
Took them off when they were least active.
IG: 52:51
Right.
BP: 52:51
And they gradually switched.
IG: 52:53
Yeah.
BP: 52:54
And I did that for quite a while.
IG: 52:55
Yeah.
BP: 52:56
And then I-I put the light on all the time-
IG: 53:01
Yeah.
BP: 53:02
-and I saw, I tried to see whether the activity would revert back to the original cycle.
IG: 53:07
Yeah.
BP: 53:08
And I think it did. And I wrote about that, and I defended the thesis-
IG: 53:09
It did.
BP: 53:13
-stuff like that.
IG: 53:13
Right.
BP: 53:13
Yeah, it was, it was.
IG: 53:13
Right.
BP: 53:14
It was very good research experience.
IG: 53:16
It was well received. Do you remember any of the accolades that you got from your faculty?
BP: 53:29
No.
IG: 53:30
You do not remember. So, when you went to the University of Rochester for your graduate degree, did you feel that Binghamton prepared you well?
BP: 53:41
I think it did, and I must have done well, because Rochester is an excellent program.
IG: 53:46
Yeah.
BP: 53:47
It is a complete Center for Brain research.
IG: 53:50
Right.
BP: 53:50
And if I had gotten a PhD, I would have taken neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, neurophysiology, neuropsychology and neurochemistry.
IG: 54:00
Right.
BP: 54:01
Which, I think I did take all those courses.
IG: 54:03
Right.
BP: 54:04
And I was- I felt like I was being held back emotionally for my tendency to be depressed from-
IG: 54:14
excuse me [inaudible]
BP: 54:16
A tendency to be depressed-
IG: 54:18
Yes.
BP: 54:18
-held me back emotionally from really doing my best intellectual work.
IG: 54:23
Right.
BP: 54:24
But that if that had not been there, Rochester would have been an excellent program for me to get a PhD.
IG: 54:32
Right.
BP: 54:33
And I had a friend who got there who got a PhD and then worked at the UCLA brain research and had a very successful career.
IG: 54:49
I am kind of taking it all in and uh-
BP: 54:54
But Binghamton definitely prepared me for it.
IG: 54:56
Yeah. Do you feel um, a greater affiliation for Binghamton or for Rochester?
BP: 55:06
Binghamton.
IG: 55:07
Binghamton. Why is that?
BP: 55:08
I spent more time there.
IG: 55:10
yeah.
BP: 55:11
It has been four years there.
IG: 55:12
Yeah.
BP: 55:13
I have, no I- there is, there is one friend from Rochester that I have kind of kept in touch with, but I have many more relationships from with Binghamton students. And there is just something about your undergraduate experience. There is more spirit there and more identification.
IG: 55:38
I absolutely agree. Yeah. Were there any, I mean, you had a very tight knit circle of friends, and at Binghamton, do you remember- and they were all- what, you know, white middle class-
BP: 55:57
Oh, yeah.
IG: 55:58
Were there any, you know, students of color? Were there any international students going to Binghamton to Harpur College at the time? Do you remember that?
BP: 56:10
I do not remember them.
IG: 56:12
So, it was pretty-
BP: 56:15
Pretty vanilla.
IG: 56:16
Pretty homogeneous.
BP: 56:17
Yeah.
IG: 56:18
Pretty vanilla.
BP: 56:19
Yeah.
IG: 56:24
You know, did you care about, did you read about- what did you think about, you know, civil rights movement that was kind of really sweeping through [crosstalk]
BP: 56:35
That is true. (19)64 is civil rights legislation.
IG: 56:38
Yeah. So, did you know about that? Did you kind of- were you aware of that or not really?
BP: 56:47
You know, I must have been, but I do not remember.
IG: 56:49
You do not remember.
BP: 56:50
I do not remember being aware of it, like I was aware of the war crosstalk]
IG: 56:53
Of the war because it affected you directly.
BP: 56:56
[crosstalk] yeah.
IG: 56:56
You know the war.
BP: 56:57
Yeah.
IG: 56:58
So how did you follow the events of the ward. Were you watching television? Where was the television at the Student Center?
BP: 57:08
I think there was a television in the lounge of the dorm.
IG: 57:12
Oh, I see, I see.
BP: 57:14
Because I remember watching Kennedy's funeral on that television.
IG: 57:17
That must have been a shocker.
BP: 57:18
Oh my gosh. It is one of those things where you never forget where you were.
IG: 57:23
Did you think that, you know what we were under threat, or, you know what did you think?
BP: 57:29
Oh, no, I thought it was just so very, very sad.
IG: 57:33
Yeah.
BP: 57:33
We loved Kennedy.
IG: 57:34
Yeah.
BP: 57:35
We just loved him.
IG: 57:36
Right.
BP: 57:37
And to have that taken out from under us was very sad, and his funeral was on my birthday.
IG: 57:44
Oh.
BP: 57:47
That was the worst birthday I have ever had.
IG: 57:49
Yeah.
BP: 57:52
So, I remember that very well. I remember Kennedy's assassination, and following-
IG: 57:58
Why did you love Kennedy?
BP: 58:00
He was- he had such a great sense of life, you know, and sense of humor. We loved his wit. We loved his press conferences, and we thought that he would- he had his heart was in the right place.
IG: 58:30
How do you mean?
BP: 58:36
I-I think he uh- I think I remember him doing things that made me feel like he would care about minorities. I do not remember exactly what he did, but I mean, probably Johnson did more for the civil rights movement, even Kennedy might have had power to do because Johnson was so good with Congress.
IG: 59:07
Right.
BP: 59:09
And one question that we always debated afterwards, after he was killed, and then later on-
IG: 59:16
With your fellow students?
BP: 59:17
Yeah.
IG: 59:18
Fellow, I mean, with your friends.
BP: 59:19
Right. Was- would Kennedy have dragged us into the war like Johnson did? And you know, our sense was that probably he would not have.
IG: 59:32
Yeah.
BP: 59:33
But who knows? We just do not know.
IG: 59:36
Right.
BP: 59:38
But the war is definitely what dominated our thinking [crosstalk] my thinking. I do not remember. I think I must have followed the civil rights march in (19)65 and Martin Luther King's famous speech, but I do not have as much of a recollection of that as I am the war.
IG: 1:00:01
Did you talk about politics at home at all? Was that something that was talked to the dinner table? What-what were your parents? Republican demo?
BP: 1:00:12
They were Democrat.
IG: 1:00:14
Definitely Democrat.
BP: 1:00:15
Yeah.
IG: 1:00:17
Yeah. So-
BP: 1:00:18
I do not think we talked too much about it, but they were definitely Democrats.
IG: 1:00:26
Well, you know, do you have any recollections more that you want to share with us about Harpur College and your experience and the impact that you had that it had on you rather.
BP: 1:00:44
Uh-huh, yeah.
IG: 1:00:52
What-what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? Maybe, as you put it.
BP: 1:01:09
I think somehow the whole intellectual atmosphere of college gave me a real conviction that it was important to be intellectually honest, to really study something and be able to and just learn enough about it to really have an informed opinion.
IG: 1:01:37
Just beautiful. Yeah.
BP: 1:01:41
Yeah. I mean-
IG: 1:01:42
And this was a principle that guided you through your life.
BP: 1:01:51
Right.
IG: 1:01:53
Did you impart this to your students when you were teaching?
BP: 1:01:57
I tried to.
IG: 1:01:59
What did you tell them? How did you translate that into terms that they could understand?
BP: 1:02:06
Well, I was a math teacher.
IG: 1:02:08
Yeah.
BP: 1:02:09
And I would make- I would tell them, you know, do not take what I am saying just because I am saying it. Really try to understand where this rule or this law comes from. Make it your own. You know, nothing is true just because I am saying it. It all comes from logic and reasoning. And try to reason it out for yourself so that you understand it like I understand it.
IG: 1:02:43
So are there any you know and you think that that you know Binghamton-
BP: 1:02:54
Oh, yeah.
IG: 1:02:56
-formed you in that way to be intellectually honest,
BP: 1:03:02
Right. And I mean, I felt like my opinion about the Vietnam War was the most reasoned and intellectually honest opinion I have had almost about almost anything, because I read a whole book on it. I really learned about it, but where-where it started, and who was involved, and when I decided that I was against the war, I just felt like I had really-really good intellectual reasons for-for being against the war.
IG: 1:03:37
I really like that. Are there any concluding remarks, as you have?
BP: 1:03:53
I think Binghamton has a great reputation, and so I am very proud to be a graduate. Um-
IG: 1:04:06
What would you say to future students who are listening or to this recording 10-20, years down the line? What would you say to them?
BP: 1:04:18
I would say that going to Binghamton gives you an opportunity to dive into a great intellectual atmosphere and really exercise your mind and learn all kinds of things and make the most of the opportunity.
IG: 1:04:37
I think that is wonderful. Thank you so much.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Barry Polsky
Subject
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Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area
Contributor
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Polsky, Barry ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
Description
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Barry graduated with a degree in Psychology from Harpur. His career spanned different professions. He worked as researcher for a pharmaceutical firm; as a software engineer after earning a graduate degree in computer science. He drove a cab and before retirement worked as a high school math teacher.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2018-01-03
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In Copyright
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eng
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Barry Polsky.mp3
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2018-01-03
Is Part Of
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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64:47 minutes
-
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2019-03-11
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Barry Schneider
Year of Graduation
1964
Biographical Text
Recipient of Distinguished Alumnus Award. Principal of Schneider Mediation. Avid athlete at Harpur College. (His nickname at Harpur was “Peanuts.”) Mediation judge in Phoenix. He (Ret.) served on the Maricopa County Superior Court for 21 years, from 1986 to 2007. He first practiced in New York City and moved to Phoenix in 1971. He was an associate at Langerman, Begam, Lewis, Leonard & Marks until 1977, when he formed the partnership Rosen & Schneider, Ltd. He has a strong background in Arizona civil litigation from the perspective of both a judge and a civil trial attorney. While on the bench, he served on the Criminal Department, in addition to serving as Presiding Civil Department Judge and Presiding Family Law Judge. His 18-month tenure on the Arizona Supreme Court’s Committee on Jury Reform led to groundbreaking changes in the rules and practice of jury trials in Arizona.
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Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Barry Schneider
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 11 March 2019
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
BS: 00:00
[inaudible] My name is Barry Schneider, graduated 1964 from Harpur College, and I am now a retired superior court judge in Phoenix, Arizona. Today is March 1, 2019.
IG: 00:17
Where are we? And [inaudible]
BS: 00:19
We are in my office in Phoenix I have as a retired judge. I became a mediator/arbitrator. I do not practice law, although my license is active and I have an office in Phoenix at 1313, East Osborne Road, Phoenix, Arizona, 85014.
IG: 00:39
And what are you doing?
BS: 00:41
And I am told that what we are doing is compiling some kind of an oral history of my wonderful time at Harpur College in the (19)60s.
IG: 00:49
Exactly-exactly. All right. So, thank you very much for that intro. So maybe we can begin by your just tell me a little bit of by way of background, where did you grow up and who your parents were? What they did? Did they encourage you to continue with your higher education?
BS: 01:11
Absolutely. I was born in the Bronx in New York, right near Yankee Stadium, and my family moved when I was 12 years old to the south shore of Long Island, to Woodmere New York, five towns on the south shore, and I went to high school at Hewlett on Long Island. I graduated high school in 1960 I had played varsity basketball and varsity baseball in high school, and my parents were off born in the United States from parents who had emigrated around turn of the 20th century from Russia and other countries around there. My father was a small businessman who owned a small manufacturing business that manufactured leather wedding albums and such. My mother was a homemaker. She-she was a brilliant card player. She is a life master in Bridge at a very early age, played poker in her later years, very smart woman. I had a sister that unfortunately passed away when I was a junior in college. She was 17. The family moved to Long Island when it came to applying to colleges, my high school limited us to three applications, and I applied to Cornell engineering, because I figured I could not get into Cornell otherwise, and I had an interest in math at the time. And I applied to University of Vermont, and I applied to Harpur College, which was definitely promoted strongly by my high school guidance counselor. He put it in terms of, economically, it is obviously a good deal, but scholastically, it has got an excellent reputation. It is going to be a growing, wonderful university in the northern part of the state. It is part of the state system. It is going to have funding, presumably, it was 1000 students or so when I applied, it sounded great, and I was accepted to all three and I chose Harpur.
IG: 01:12
Why?
BS: 01:58
For all those reasons, I liked the idea that it was small. I did not really want to go to an engineering school in Vermont. I did not really know anything about it, so Harpur seemed the right fit for me. And my parents are very encouraging. Fact, I still remember, finally, my father passed away in 2006, 92 I still remember fondly the trip that he and I took from our home to Binghamton from my orientation. It was just the two of us. It was a wonderful couple of days together. So, they were very supportive.
IG: 04:27
Had you- thank you. Had you ever visited Binghamton before arriving on campus?
BS: 04:37
I do not think so. I am not sure. I do not have a recollection of it. I do not think so.
IG: 04:47
So, what were your first impressions your-
BS: 04:50
I did visit. I did visit because I remember being taken through the dorm and knocking on somebody's door. I cannot remember who it was. It could have been somebody became a big director. No, he was here behind me. Was not Andrew Bergman. He was a year behind me. Was Andrew Bergman's good friend I was thinking about that was not them knocked on somebody's door. They showed me the dorm room. So, I was there for a brief time before I actually went there. And my impressions were, what did I know? 17-year-old kid from Long Island. I do not know anything.
IG: 05:26
So, you know you-you had not experienced rural life before, right?
BS: 05:33
No, Suburban. You know, Bronx in suburbia.
IG: 05:37
Okay, so-
BS: 05:38
Camps every now and then.
IG: 05:40
Yeah. So, what were some of the first impressions that you had of the place of the students that you met on your first days?
BS: 05:48
It is hard to remember the first impressions my first activities. I remember this. I do not know if it is of any interest, but I have an athletic interest. I went to college having no-no dreams of ever having any intercollegiate experience. I remember my high school basketball coach laughing at me. He says, “As soon as you hear that basketball bounce, you are going to be in the gym.” I am 5'6", (5')7", whatever, and I am a little tiny runt. I so the first thing I did was, I think I knew who my roommate was. I think we met before we went up there. We had a mutual friend. He got kicked out of the school in our sophomore year, but I went down to the gym, which was then the small gym, which I do not know if it is a women's gym now or not, it was not the big field house by any means, and there were on the outdoor basketball courts. There were a bunch of games going on. One of the players in one of the games was a junior at Harpur. His name is Jimmy Davis. I knew Jimmy pretty well because he was a star of the basketball team a couple of years ahead of me at Hewlett, and his younger brother was a year behind me at Hewlett, and we were teammates on the basketball team. And in fact, I remember talking to Jimmy before I made my decision about Harpur, because I would I knew that he had gone there, and he was very encouraging. And I saw Jimmy on the play on the basketball courts playing with his older guy turned out to be the basketball coach. And Jimmy says, "Hey, peanuts." So, peanuts was my name from orientation week until I graduated and I got into the game that the coach was playing, Jimmy was playing. I do not know if Mickey Greenberg was there. Probably was. And because of Jimmy, who the coach idolized, Jimmy was a God. He was a great player, because I was kind of part of his whatever I was seen by the coach as, hey, this is potential, whatever. In fact, the coach had told me that my JV basketball coach in high school had met him earlier that summer at some coaches’ conference, and for some reason he knew I was going to Harpur and mentioned to the coach, Frank Pollard, hey, this kid, peanuts is coming, you know, keep your eye out for him. That is my first recollection of anything during orientation week. Remember getting the beanies, and if you know when the beanie, they-they did an H in your forehead. And I was, I was always getting an H on my forehead because I was challenging these ridiculous norms, whatever, that is what I remember. I started off as a math major, and I think either after my first semester or my second semester, I said, "No, that is not for me." I had four eight o'clock in my first semester. It was freezing cold. I never could not get the you know; I did not want to go to class. And I have a good friend, Tony D'Aristotle, who graduated a year before me, who was also on the basketball team, local from Binghamton, still lives in Binghamton. Used to live Montreal, taught Montreal in McGill, taught at Stanford, taught and spent time down South America back in Binghamton, I stayed his house. When I am there. He was a math major; he was a professor of math. He was a PhD in math, and he remembers the conversation that I do not remember when I told Dick Wick Hall, who was a professor of math, I do not think this is for me. And Hall said, okay, he could not care less. So, I started as a math major, then I had to figure out a major, and I majored in economics. There was that a little bit of math in it.
IG: 05:48
Yeah. How- what did you think of-of the students in your classes?
BS: 05:48
I loved it. There was all this political, civil rights stuff going on, hippies, beats. On beatniks and dressing, you know, differently. I remember the fun we used to have, and I was kind of a part of that. I was, I went up to Buffalo to-to demonstrate against house on American Activities Committee, and I, I was part of that group, but I was not as fringed as they were. But I remember going into town wearing my Harpur jacket, carrying my communism textbook from social science whatever, just to get a reaction from the local people. I mean, we had fun, but we were but we will push. We were part of that generation, the sexual revolution, civil rights revolution. I remember Stokely Carmichael coming to the campus.
IG: 10:51
When-when?
BS: 10:53
(19)63, (19)64.
IG: 10:55
I had not realized that.
BS: 10:57
And John Lewis, I think, was with him as well.
IG: 10:59
Oh, really?
BS: 11:00
I think so. And I just kind of was on the background, just [crosstalk]
IG: 11:06
We actually have their- we have John Lewis's interview for another collection.
BS: 11:12
Okay, yeah, but I was very wrapped up in that social in the social political culture.
IG: 11:18
I had not realized was that that early in the (19)60s.
BS: 11:23
Before the Vietnam War, it was purely the civil rights movement. And I marched on Washington in 1963--there was groups that were being sent by Harpur College, and I did not really get a part of that. I go home, it is August, back home and talk about parents encouraging you. And my sister had died earlier that year, and I am home and the civil rights march, the March on Washington, and I said, I want to go and by myself. I got on a train, and my mother packed me a lunch, goodbye and good luck and Godspeed. She was proud of me. So was my father.
IG: 12:05
How wonderful.
BS: 12:06
It was, tearing up, but I mean to me, those four years were irrepla- irreplaceable. Girlfriends broke up with me, all that stuff. It was a real coming of age experience.
IG: 12:26
Tell us a little bit more about the groups that you socialized with and-
BS: 12:30
I was a member. I was kind of rushed by. We did not have they did not have fraternity news. Then they had social clubs. And one of the leading social clubs was Adelphi. I do not know if it is still there. This is where the President the senior class was a member, and all-all the Upstate waspy guys. And then there was SOS, which was much more ragged and much more rowdy. Then there was ITK, there was goal yards, and I was somewhat known on campus. I mean, I was six men on the basketball team in my freshman year. I started in my junior year, and I got rushed SOS rushed me. Some of my best friends were in SOS, and I chose Adelphi because that was, you know, that was the prestigious thing to do. And I got so tired of it. By my junior year, I basically dropped out. I got tired of things like the pledge, this pledges with pledge, and then we had sat down like we had this authority. No, yes, no, yes. It just bothered me. I said, I do not want to be part of this, so I dropped out and I became more of the hippie kind of-
IG: 13:46
Well, tell me about the young people who were part of this hippie group.
BS: 13:52
They were-
IG: 13:53
Who were they? They were from Long Island in New York City-
BS: 13:56
Mostly- there was mostly downstate, but some upstate as well. They dress scruff here they most of them were, well, a lot of them were literature majors, very artistic, very creative. Deborah Tannen, okay, big name in Harpur College was a good friend of mine. She was a year behind me, and I hung out. She one of her best friends was my girlfriend at the time, and we and her boyfriend at the time was also a year behind me, Mike Tillis, who is now in Israel with a long, Hasidic kind of a life for many years. And we would double date. I had a car. We would go out after games. Deborah Tennant and I were good friends, and we still are in contact with each other, although I am not, you know, she is Deborah Tannen and I am not. She is really a celebrity. I mean, she is, she is, she is amazing. The last reunion, we spent some time together, I have pictures of my phone with her. She is wonderful. And she was, really, she was an English major. She became, you know, a linguistics PhD. I guess they are related, but that is the kind of folks I was hanging out with. They were not really. Some of them were just hanging out in a snack bar. They were not. Some of them were not good students. Deborah was my girlfriend was and who is your girlfriend? Elaine Selling. I have no idea what has happened to her. She had broken up with a boyfriend before me. We went out. She dumped me to go back with him. That is all what I remember. I am just trying to think there was, who were these kids. I mean, I was friendly with the athletes and kind of this group, you know, I was, I was sort of a bridge between them, of sorts.
IG: 15:58
The athletes were not politicized.
BS: 16:01
Yeah, some of them were.
IG: 16:01
Some of them were.
BS: 16:02
Yeah, but not as much as these kids.
IG: 16:05
Yeah. What kind of things did they talked about? What, what did you talk about when you were with them?
BS: 16:10
Oh, what typically young men talk about? Women basketball exams in school? Nothing that I can remember that is, you know, particularly [crosstalk]
IG: 16:22
[inaudible] on American activities. Did you talk about anything political or [crosstalk] when was in the air at the time?
BS: 16:29
I think the Vietnam War. I cannot remember where that was starting to heat up. But, you know, there were draft issues. You know, we were concerned about the draft. Some of us, some of them, my classmates, went to pretty, not extremes, but went to medical school they could not get into us, and went to Bologna, just, you know, right, basically, to avoid the that is not fair to say, but I went to graduate school, I lasted a semester, and then I went to law school.
IG: 17:07
Where did you go to graduate school?
BS: 17:10
Rutgers in economics. I actually lasted a semester, and then I quit in the second semester. I did not like it. My economics advisor was a guy named John LaTourette. It was a wonderful guy.
IG: 17:24
Yeah. So, you know, just, let us backtrack before you went to law school. So, you know some of the professors that made an impression on you. Can you remember some names?
BS: 17:36
John LaTourette. He was my Economics professor. Took a number of courses with him. There was a guy named Hamilton, associate sociology professor. He was pretty left. He had a good relationship with a lot of these students. There was a guy who taught statistics, I do not remember his name, that I just enjoyed. We had a good relationship. I hate, I hate his statistics. I think I got to be in this, somehow, Van [Robert VanHadel] something. I kind of have an image of him, but he would not remember me. I do not remember him. I lived off campus since my sophomore year, starting my sophomore year, since I was able to, I did, and I lived with some upperclassmen, and I lived with guys in my sophomore year who were dirty, who were stealing exams. They all got kicked out, and I was not and I said, do not, I do not want to see it. Leave me alone. But I was in the house with these guys. It was very uncomfortable. But did not never I was, I always, I was, you know, what is that word Teflon? I was Teflon. About that me. I never got, nobody ever talked to me. But I never got pulled in. But I knew the guy that knew the combination to this, and then he was able to get the exams and go away. I do not, I do not want this. I do not want to do this. And I would, you know, I was pretty good student in economics. I was actually second highest in the class in that in that major. It is hard to say, but those guys got kicked out in my sophomore year. My roommate, I told you about, he was involved in that. There was about half dozen-dozen that did not graduate because they were shamed out of the school. And it was, it was a was scandalous, what was going on. And, you know, I did not blow the whistle on these guys. I just go away. I do not want to know about it.
IG: 19:41
Right-right. Kennedy assassination.
BS: 19:45
Oh yeah, our yearbook. I remember I was in the snack bar. You know, everybody remembers where they were. And there is a picture in my yearbook, which I have at home. My house burnt down, but that did not burn. And. Then whoever took I-I am in one of the pictures, and we are just like this, you know, totally morose and sad and looking down, and that was captured in the yearbook. Did you ever see the yearbooks back?
IG: 20:16
Yes-yes-yes.
BS: 20:17
Okay, there is pictures of the Kennedy the day Kennedy was killed. Very moving, but it was just I was I remember being in the snack bar. Snack bar was like the womb. It was where everybody went. And I will tell you a cute story. Perhaps I am now living in Phoenix. I have all kids who are about how old eight, seven, ten, eight and eleven, and a bunch of families going to the movies on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, and we are going to see the In-laws. And I had no idea Andrew Bergman wrote this, and I am sitting in the movie, and I am laughing louder, harder than everybody else in the theater, and I said out loud, and my wife will swear to this, this feels like I am in the snack bar, and it was Andrew Bergman who hung out in a snack bar. This is same humor that I grew up with in Harpur College. Was in that movie, you know, the movie
IG: 21:24
With De Niro.
BS: 21:25
No Peter Faulk.
IG: 21:27
Oh-oh [crosstalk]
BS: 21:29
Go see it on Netflix. It is one of the it is, Peter Faulk and Alan Arkin.
IG: 21:36
Yeah, they are great actors.
BS: 21:37
And Alan Arkin is this dentist, and Peter Faulk is his, who knows? Why is his CIA agent? We do not know for sure. And he gets Alan Arkin, who is his most upright, prudish kind of guy, to go to South America to some banana republic. And they get into these scrapes and-and they are running because people are shooting at them. And the famous scene is, is that Peter Faullk is saying serpentine-serpentine so they have to go back. Serpentines means when we run like this. So, he has already run straight, has not been shot now he has to go back and sir. It is hilarious, but it was the humor that I knew and felt comfortable with from Harpur College snack bar.
IG: 22:17
It comes from another place. It comes from another place. It comes from, you know, maybe New York City.
BS: 22:26
Oh, yeah. Andrew Burton was from New York City.
IG: 22:28
Exactly.
BS: 22:29
Of course.
IG: 22:29
That is where-
BS: 22:30
But that, but we infected the snack bar, and that is, you know, that is how we sat around. And there is those that have, not jokes that we told, but those-those-
IG: 22:41
Kind of humor.
BS: 22:41
Yeah.
IG: 22:42
Which is, how would you describe this humor?
BS: 22:46
It is kind of little bit it is a it is a little screwy. It is not, it is not [inaudible] young men telling jokes. It is kind of a warp view of the world. The other story I heard about Andrew Bergman, who wrote Blazing Saddles. Now that you have seen, right?
IG: 23:07
Yes.
BS: 23:08
And Mel Brooks confirmed this about two or three years ago. He had this one-on-one interview on HBO for a couple hours. Was one of my- I was a big thing at Harpur College too. Was a 2000-year-old man? They just came out. Mel Brooks and Carl Erin is 2000-year-old man on record came out just before at that time, and we used to speak to each other from phrases from the record, I will never walk. I do not walk for a bus will always be another. You know, fear is the main compulsion, propulsion, whatever. The story I heard, and it was kind of confirmed by Mel Brooks, is that Bergman wrote this book Blazing Saddles. He went on to history at Wisconsin for post graduate. And it's, I never read the book, and a movie theater picked it up and says to Bergman, write the script. And this is a story I heard. Bergman had a lot of trouble writing the screenplay, and he was not producing, and he had writer's block, and he had all those problems. So, the studio says, "Okay, we will give you some help." So, Mel Brooks and Richard Pryor are hired to help Andrew Bergman write this script. And can you, I always say this, can you imagine sitting in a room with these guys? They are crazy. I mean [crosstalk] of course, everybody would have had a peak into that. So Blazing Saddles then gets published, I mean, produced, and it is incredible. And it is that humor. Also, it is the opening scene when Mel Brooks is Indian chief and comes up on these African Americans who are working on the railroad, and he goes schwatzers.
IG: 24:54
[laughs]
BS: 24:54
It is class, it is classic. That is classic.
IG: 24:58
That is very New York.
BS: 25:01
How much more New York can you be-
IG: 25:03
No, you cannot.
BS: 25:04
-than Mel Brooks, and it is just, I went to see Blazing Saddles. I had just it was early (19)70s. I moved here in (19)71 to Phoenix, and we went out with another couple, also from New York, who have been here a few years long, more than we have, and we went to see Blazing Saddles in the movies. And as we are walking into the theater, there is this family of cowboys and cow girls and cow, cow father, cow mother and five, five or six cow kids in their cowboy hats and their boots. They are thinking they go to see, going to see a shoot them up. And they go into a Wayne movie, right? They go in, they sit down in the theater and kind of watching them. And the opening scene, when Mel Brooks goes Schwartz, they on-on mass, get up and leave the theater. Phoenix is not New York, no, it is not. It is not, it is, it is more and more it is, you know, it is, it is progressing. This was a small Southwestern town. It is still conservative, but there is a lot more of that happening. liberal stuff happening anyway. So, I do not that is fine. I knew Andrew Bergman a little bit. And I remember when I went to see the movie with Bert Parks that he wrote about stuffed animals. They were killing these rare birds and rare animals. I forget what they are doing. It was, it was a ridiculously comic type of thing. Bert Parks played his Miss America role, and Marlon Brando had a role in that, in which he played, which he mocked himself in The Godfather. And I remember writing a letter to, I do not know if he ever wrote back, writing a letter to Andrew Bergen and say, “How did you ever get Marlon Brando to sit down and accept this role?” I forget the name of the movie, but it is a Bergman was good. He was he has not done anything in a long time. I do not think, but I think he was very successful. I think he had a place on Central Park, South or North, or whatever, and.
IG: 27:26
Let us talk about you then.
BS: 27:27
Okay.
IG: 27:28
Okay, so, I mean, you obviously had an interest in comedy.
BS: 27:33
Well, yeah, I like [crosstalk]
IG: 27:35
Films?
BS: 27:36
Yeah.
IG: 27:37
Was that- was there an opportunity to do that at Harpur was-
BS: 27:43
A little bit.
IG: 27:43
Film Club, or-
BS: 27:44
I have to go to the restroom. Can we shut this off for a while when we do that? Professor is the one that I remember was Sidney Harcave, who was a preeminent Russian history scholar. I took two or three classes with him. We used his textbook Russia, a history and I remember once I had three finals on one day, and I was freaking out, and I went to him, and his advice to me was, get a good night's sleep. I wanted to take it some other time, but he would not do that. He was really fantastic professor, and I really enjoyed his classes, walking around campus. I am remembering now things like Sid Arthur Herman has his novels, the kids walking around reading that stuff, part of the, you know, the evolution of-of these young people who are starting to sprout their own wings and separate themselves from their parents’ generation and from and changing the cultural surroundings that they were part of. There was a beehive of that kind of activity back in the (19)60s. [crosstalk] Yeah, I mean, I did not understand I was not the scholar they were. So, I was kind of listening to them talk about it. But I had a girlfriend who was a literature major, and Deborah Tanner was her best friend. I mean, I had, if I wanted to talk to these people, I had, I had to pick up the book that they were reading, kind of and but I enjoyed it. I mean, it was, it was a wonderful awakening coming, you know, coming of age kind of a thing. There was, you know, I still look back upon those days terribly fondly, and always felt very fortunate that I had that opportunity. But on the other hand, having gone to Harpur College, there was a little bit of a of a burden in that when I graduated law school and I went out interviewing for jobs, I put down Harpur College and all that stuff. The first question I got from everybody interviewing me, where is Harpur College? Nobody ever heard of it. This is 1968, (19)69 and it was a bit of a, you know, an obstacle.
IG: 30:13
It was in you-
BS: 30:15
It was founded in 1948 and it had an amazing reputation, but nobody knew about it. It was not known. And these high-priced lawyers in these large law firms who went to all the Ivy League schools and were snobs about that, their first question to me was, where is Harpur College? So, I would not answer, but I had this. It was, it was incredible. Every single interview I got that same question. They never heard of it. They have now.
IG: 30:48
They have now, and they have-
BS: 30:51
And, I am sorry, they changed the name because the name, you know, I understand, [crosstalk], yeah, they changed it two or three times. It was SUNY at Binghamton. It was Binghamton University. Harpur College developed a great name. I am sorry that it was not still not the name of the school.
IG: 31:09
Yeah, because, as someone told me, you know it your generation got the end and the generation. Well, while Harpur College existed, that you got an elite education, liberal arts education for almost no money.
BS: 31:34
Right. I think we had an incoming class. It was told student body was about 1000 our incoming class is about 300 something. 10 percent of those kids were valedictorians in high school. Mean, these were top students in each of their schools who could not afford to go to an Ivy League school. This was the their-their opportunity, and the school thrived because of not only the professors being like Sidney Harcave, this preeminent scholar in his field. There were others in geology, there were in in all different all different departments, but the kids were very active and creative, and they part of what created that environment, not just the professors. It was that it was this frenetic activity, the civil rights movement and the war in Vietnam, obviously was heating up things I was thinking about that one of my good friends who was a year ahead of me. He was on the basketball team, Kenny Hoffman. His name is on the Vietnam Memorial in DC. He was a pilot, and he was killed, and it was not much after we graduated, we needless to say, most of the students were very actively opposed to the war, and I was really was not sure I was one of them. And after I graduated, I marched in down Fifth Avenue. I was anti-war, and I really did not understand as much until I saw Ken Burns thing on-on public TV.
IG: 33:28
Emily being your- you said, Emily.
BS: 33:32
No-no, Ken Burns.
IG: 33:34
Ken Burns. No. You said, somebody did not understand.
BS: 33:39
I did not.
IG: 33:39
You did not understand.
BS: 33:40
I did not understand why I was so it was the- my friends were opposed to it. So, I am I did not really understand the gravity, the gravitas, the you know, that, you know, I hated Nixon and I hated the war and I did all that stuff, but not. It was not until I became a lot, until recently, really, when all came together with-with-with Ken Burns's incredible documentary on the Vietnam War. It was amazing. It was just a hell hole. Kick any deeper and deeper, and I did not really appreciate it at that time. I was not as knowledgeable. It was not as aware.
IG: 34:21
And all the people that orchestrated it already knew that it was,
BS: 34:25
I am not sure. They were kids. They were rebelling. They were revolting.
IG: 34:26
The administration-
BS: 34:28
Oh yeah, they knew Johnson knew he was caught me, lied about Tonkin Gulf and all that to get us in there, just like George W Bush did to get us into Iraq.
IG: 34:43
So, there was Vietnam moving over. All of you did that create anxiety?
BS: 34:51
Yeah, sure, the draft and the war and all that. I do not remember it exactly, but we were so opposed to it, we could never see ourselves carrying a gun in Vietnam. It did not make any sense.
IG: 35:07
Did your professors support you?
BS: 35:10
A lot of them did.
BS: 35:11
They did not need to. They did not need it. We did not need protection. We did not need protection. We were not doing anything illegal. We were not doing anything that was going to get us in trouble. We were not, you know-
IG: 35:11
Did they sort of protect you?
IG: 35:26
Did they encourage you to go on to grad school?
BS: 35:29
John LaTourette encouraged me to go on to economics. He gave me a reference letter. And actually, lots of rec, I think, was from Rutgers. I had spent some time there, and he got me a fellowship, which I felt badly about, but I said, it is not for me.
IG: 35:51
So, what happened next? You dropped out of Rutgers. How did you become? I mean, give me sort of the arc of your career. How did you become a superior court judge?
BS: 36:06
That is a very it is interesting to me. I am not sure to anybody else, but I am trying to think of whether I should, I should say this on the record, but I dropped out of graduate school in Rutgers after one semester, and I knew that I am looking at being drafted. I do not have any-any educational protection, so I applied. I had been accepted in graduate school at City University in New York, and I lasted. I went about a month, and I just stopped going. I never quit. I never announced it resignation letter. I just stopped going. So, I am knowing that in my mind, I got to, you know, I got to figure out something a lot of a lot of people I knew were signing up on in reserve units to avoid getting drafted, to delay it by a year or two, my best man at my wedding who was simpatico, and all the things that we felt at the time. He winds up going to officer candidate training school in the Marines, and he is now in Vietnam as a second lieutenant, which is the most dangerous position on the battlefield. He is the guy saying, follow me, and he gets shot in the back by his own men. He survived, thank God, but he went, he signed up in a reserve unit that got activated, and he is now in Vietnam. That is the kind of stuff that was happening that was after we graduated. So going to law school had a lot to do with figuring that piece out. I did not really ever dream of being a lawyer.
IG: 37:47
What did you dream of becoming?
BS: 37:49
Nothing.
IG: 37:50
Nothing?
BS: 37:51
I could not play professional baseball because I was not good enough and I was too short for basketball. So, I had no dreams. My father had a nice business. My father was such a wonderful man. He would have embraced the fact, if I would have gone into business with him, it would have been the happiest man in the world. He understood that I did not want to do that, and he encouraged me to do whatever I wanted. So, I went to law school. I applied late. I got accepted to Brooklyn Law School, St John's law school, and I think I was rejected NYU in Columbia, maybe because it was late, maybe because I was not good enough. A lot of Harpur graduates were at St John's, people a year ahead of me or two, and I knew them pretty well, and it was easy for me to get in, you know, to kind of be engulfed and protected by them. So, I went to St John's. I was living at my parents’ house, and on Long Island. I take the train every day from Long Island to Brooklyn. Was in Brooklyn, and now it is in Queens, and I did real well. I was like top five in my first-first semester, and I thought I flunked out. I went on a ski trip with some of these my friends from Harpur who were your head of me, and I told them, I am not even buying my books for next semester I flunked out. They laughed at me. I am telling you, I flunked out. We were at the ski trip, and my mother calls and she reads me my grades, and they sounded okay. And I tell these graceton, these friends of mine, they said, “My God, you are probably number one in the class.” I said “I was number five.” I made Law Review, which is a whole other world in law school, it is a you spend a lot of time with the elites of the elite students in law school, putting together a legal magazine, periodical. I scholarly, and you spend hours reading and editing and discussing and looking for it is, it is a whole other life. And I did that for the rest of my law school career. And I did, I did not study as hard because I had Law Review for one thing. And I thought it was a piece of cake now. So, I went from like an 85 average to a 77 average in my second semester, then I kind of leveled out. I did okay. I did not. Was not good enough to get a job in the big Wall Street firms because they never heard of Harpur College. For one thing, my first job out of law school-
IG: 40:17
When was this? What year?
BS: 40:20
I graduated law school in (19)68 if I would have graduated with my class would have been (19)67 but I spent that year screwing around graduate school, and I still had to worry about the draft, because now I was about 25 and 26 is the magic number, so one of the things I did was to apply. I got a job within what is called OEO, legal services for the poor, Office of Economic Opportunity, federal concept, and John-Robert Kennedy had a lot to do with that, bringing publicly funded law firms, in effect, into the ghettos to assist the people who live there.
IG: 41:08
Is that a precursor of legal aid-
BS: 41:10
Legal Aid in New York was criminal, so this was the civil side.
IG: 41:14
I see, I see.
BS: 41:15
And that is where I got a job and I applied to the to the Selective Service that I think what I am doing here is more important to my country than carrying a gun in Vietnam did not work, so I eventually did not, did not have to get drafted. It is a long story that I am not going to tell now, but a lot of what I did, and a lot of my-my-my friends, were doing this frenzy time was figuring out ways not to get killed in Vietnam. Trump does. Trump did the same thing. You know, my I never mind. So, I really took the law school, and I graduated in (19)68 I am working at Bedford Stuyvesant, legal services for the community center, whatever borrow legal services for the poor, going down every day with 10,15, files the landlord and tenant court representing people that were being evicted and it was not going anywhere. It was not a job that [phone rings] I will let Chelsea answer that. So, then I got a job in a small Wall Street firm does not exist anymore. It was like 12 lawyers, not a big they had some big clients, some big Israeli connected Bank Leumi, Israel was a big client of theirs and other Israeli connected businesses. And then my wife.
IG: 42:58
How did you meet your wife? Is that your wife?
BS: 43:01
That is my wife.
IG: 43:01
Yeah, I thought so.
BS: 43:03
We have a great first date story. But I guess, since I am revealing so much about myself, I will tell you that in a moment. But my wife said to me, this is now 1970ish, and I am working now at [inaudible] and Bookstein, no longer it in Bedford, Stuyvesant in Brooklyn. And she is from Connecticut. She went to NYU, that is where we met, and she is working in the city we have by the time we move; our daughter was eight months old. But before we had children, she was working at banker's trust thing, which is now Bank of America, and doing very well working on whatever. She was having horrible experiences on the subway with perverts on the subway, and she said, "I cannot I cannot stand this anymore. I- we have to move." So, the logical thing for any New Yorker like myself, she is not a New Yorker, was to move to Long Island or Westchester or New Jersey. And we looked at some houses, and then we kind of looked at each other, and we said, “Boy, if we get, if we move and keep this job, we are stuck for the rest. We cannot move. We are, we are just imprisoned by this system. We cannot afford ever, or buy in a house we cannot afford whatever.” So, we said, “Let us take a look at this.” I never heard of Phoenix. I heard of Phoenix. I never knew anything about it, and I was out of a law school friend of mine, we graduated, and we were at a party at his house, and we are sitting around, what do you want to move to? What do you want to do? I do not want to go to Miami. It is too it is too much like New York. It is too much the same. So, somebody says, What about Phoenix, Arizona? I said, “Where is it? What is it?” So, I had, we had from law school. We had these little two by four little diaries, pocket diaries that a large publishing house handed out. And they had an atlas, and they had all the states broken down by Northeast, Northwest, and there was Arizona, right next to New Mexico, next to Texas, and it was close to Las Vegas. This far from LA looked like a good place, and I started reading about it. They have not. They just established an NBA basketball franchise that is important. So, sight unseen. Basically, I came out here for an exploratory run. Nothing happened, and we packed up. Six months later, we packed without a job, we packed up. We just moved out here. Some connections. I had to take the bar exam in those days. You had to have a six-month residency, and then you took the bar exam. Not true anymore today, so I got a job in a firm because I was not licensed to just do Scrivener work for a couple $100 a month. I still had to look for a real job. And I finally got a job in a law firm downtown, a prominent personal injury law firm, which I knew nothing about. And I was there from (19)72 to (19)77 when I formed a partnership with an older friend of mine, and we were together from (19)77 to about (19)84 and we kind of split the sheets, and we kept the name, but I was on my own, kind of building a practice. Meanwhile, friends of mine, good friends of mine, are applying and becoming judges on the Superior Court or state court of general jurisdiction, and I am talking to my friends and, "Gee, that sounds like a nice gig. I mean, I like to do that. " And I am 42, 43 years old, kind of young, but it is- we have merit selection in Arizona. We do not have general elections. Least the three largest counties in Arizona, you go through a screening process, you make an application, there is a commission that is half lawyers, half lay people presided over by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. You submit your application. In my day, there was like 75 applicants for two positions. They call through them, 15 or so are then interviewed, then they take five and they send it to the governor, and the governor must choose from that short list, and half of that short list has to be different political parties. So, depoliticize it is to bring it is called Merit selection, and it was kind of new at the time it came in, oh, maybe a few years before that, I would never run for election. It is not who I am. Bruce Babbitt was the governor at the time, and I did my application, got my interview, and I was appointed on the first shot, which was not remarkable, but it was usually it is two or three times when you to get it. I was very fortunate.
IG: 48:16
What kind of cases did you try?
BS: 48:18
Well, we have three departments. We have, well, we have more than that. We have a civil department, we have a criminal department, we have a probate department. Most of my time as a private lawyer was in civil. I did not do any criminal, really. I did some domestic relation. Domestic Relations was the other one. Domestic Relations, probate, civil and criminal. I did when I left the firm and joined with this guy. I needed business, so I did anything that came in the door, and I did some divorce work, which nobody wants to do. So, the- our court is a court of general jurisdiction, which means we are, we are not a local justice of the peace court. We are not- we do not hear small matters. We hear major matters, major felonies, murders, kidnapping and we hear major civil cases for millions of dollars as well as little cases. So, we hear, as a civil in the civil department, we hear everything that could be filed, medical malpractice case, lawyer malpractice case, products liability case, automobile accidents, partnership dissolutions, real estate fraud, transactions, everything that you ever learned about in law school is on your plate as a civil department judge, criminal is what you would expect in criminal. I had no, no background the criminal, but I took to it, and I need today, 10, 15, years, 12 years after I retired, I will run into one of the lawyers used to practice in my court, and they think of me as a criminal person, criminal, you know, and I am not. It took me six months to learn the language I. Had no idea what was going on when I was on criminal. I was scared to death. I mean, I look out on the morning. We have a morning calendar in criminal and that is when we do our sentencings, emotions for release, our conferences before we did our trials. And there would be maybe 12 inmates sitting there in the jury box waiting for their case to be called, and on that side of the room, maybe their family members are sitting behind them, and on the other side of the room is the is, is the victims, and then there is the prosecutors and the defense lawyers. And I used to walk out on a bench. I used to look at this array, and I say to myself, I know less than every one of these people in this courtroom about what I am doing, but it took me about six months, and all of a sudden, I had-
IG: 50:49
You gained the confidence just by doing up and doing it.
BS: 50:53
Reading it and figuring it out and understanding the lexicon. And it is not really hard. It is the easiest for me. It is the easiest. It was the easiest assignment. Criminal. There was some-
IG: 51:04
What was the hardest?
BS: 51:06
Civil was the hardest in terms of the difficulty of the issues. The hardest assignment probably was domestic relations, because you had to resolve unresolvable disputes. There was never enough money to go around, never enough time with the children. And you had people fighting it, you know, because they hated each other, and that was difficult on the toll it took on you personally, civil was the most difficult because the issues were the most, the most difficult.
IG: 51:44
Like what issues did you-
BS: 51:47
Just itis evolved. Now, you know, I have been gone 12 years, but I do mediation, so I see the cases at the mediation stage, and there is summary judgments, you know, 10 inches thick that you have to read through and prepare for oral argument to decide and on our court. We do not have any research assistance. We do not have any staff. We do it by ourselves. It is very, very time consuming, and it's, you know, every commercial case, they think they have entitlement to a summary judgment as a matter of law. So, they file one or two or more, and it is pages and pages and pages of stuff on. Could be economic loss rule. It could be on, you know, whatever legal doctrine is being bad need about, and it is constantly evolving and changing. You got to keep up. I got invited fairly often to speak at State Bar seminars on various issues, which was a challenge for me.
IG: 52:50
What kind of issues Did you speak about?
BS: 52:53
Motion practice, how to write motions, how to be more persuasive. I wrote about evidence, evidentiary things I spoke about number of times on some ethical issues the Code of Professional Conduct.
IG: 53:11
Such as?
BS: 53:12
Candor toward the tribunal. Point 3.3. Of the Code of Professional Conduct, you must be candid in front of a judge. You cannot be misleading or lie. And there are cases that are very interesting reads, and I would talk about that, you know, beyond the faculty, talking about things like that, oh, I do not remember all the things on my website, if you I do not know if you looked at my website. You might want to do that. I describe some of the things, you know, speech, speaking engagements, I have not had much lately. That is part of my problem. If it is a problem to where I am not as busy now, 12 years after I retired as it was three years after I retired, because nobody knows me anymore, I was a known item when I retired from the bench.
IG: 53:59
Why do not you teach?
BS: 54:01
I also taught at school.
IG: 54:02
Really?
BS: 54:04
I taught at ASU Sandra Day O'Connor School of Law. Taught for about five or six years. They had a very interesting civil practice. No, not civil practice, lawyering Theory and Practice class, which was basically a hands-on student. It was a lottery to get into those classes. They had to argue cases, try a case, and I was one of the faculty that took one of the little sections. And for about five or six years, I was a what is the word that you use for a professor?
IG: 54:43
Adjunct.
BS: 54:44
What?
IG: 54:44
Adjunct.
BS: 54:45
Adjunct at a new law school, which is now going out of business, Phoenix School of Law. I taught civil practice there for a few times, for a few semesters, while I was on the bench, because I was thinking of doing that when I retired being a law professor. But I did, fortunately, I did that on a full-time basis while still on the bench. I said, this is real work. I do not want to do this. The worst part of it was the grading. Was the creating the final exam and then grading it. I do not want to still hard. So, I just-
IG: 55:18
Got a graduate assistant?
BS: 55:19
No-no, I was the I was assisting the other professors in doing this. They were not going to assist me.
IG: 55:29
No. Things, things run differently, actually, not differently. But, you know, you could employ a graduate assistant from the law department.
BS: 55:38
Possibly. But I just, I like the I like the classroom. I like the interaction with the class. I am actually going down next this later this month, two young lawyers I know are teaching this class at ASU, and they invited me to be a guest for one of their nights, which I did last year. It is fun. I enjoy tremendously interacting with young lawyers. I enjoy interacting when a judge, when a new judge, is appointed to my bench, if I happen to have some connection, maybe through a friend or whatever, I try to reach out and say, here is some tips and whatever, I enjoy that.
IG: 56:19
Have you considered speaking at Binghamton? I mean, there is no law school, but there is a pre law program.
BS: 56:24
I have not considered it, but-
IG: 56:24
You have not considered it.
BS: 56:24
Well, it is a long trip.
IG: 56:27
It is a long trip.
BS: 56:33
I do. I go back. I went back to reunion on three, four years ago. I was there in 2008 which is when I got the Distinguished Alumni Award. So, I went back for that, and I went back once or twice after that, both times saying studying at my friend Tony D Aristotle's house on Carroll Street Downtown Binghamton, right next to the Italian American club. You know what that is?
IG: 56:56
Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah.
BS: 56:58
It has got this old house is over 100 years old. It is great.
IG: 57:03
You promised to tell me about-
BS: 57:06
My first date. People actually asked me to tell this story. My wife hates it every now, but last couple times, tell them how we had our first date. Okay, I am in my second year in law school in Brooklyn, New York, at St John's University. And a friend of mine from Harpur, a teammate named Roy Tompowski. He may have run across him. He is a pretty active alum. He is an accountant. Lives in Westchester, and Roy calls me, I want to be disparaging, because I am on the record, and says I got a girl for you. All right, Roy, you know what-what is the story? Well, she is at NYU uptown. She is a junior, she is very pretty, and she is very smart, and she is from Connecticut, okay, I will give her a call. So, I-I call once, and I do not roommate answers call another time, another time, and finally, we make this date for Friday night. What I find out later is that she had a boyfriend that she goes out with on Saturday nights, but she is trying to break up with him. So, she tells Roy at a party that she went to camp, the same camp Roy went to, that is the connection. And she was at a party of all the camp guys, and she went up to Roy, and she said, you know, you have a guy for me. So, Roy says, Yeah, but he may be too short for you peanuts anyway. So, she has worried about that. That is what she knows. So, we finally make this day for Friday night. And I figured I am living in Brooklyn. I had this new TR four that I got when I graduated. Sometimes I got somewhere along the way, and she is up in the Bronx, you know, the city at all, New York City. Okay, good. So I am in Brooklyn, Atlantic Avenue area by downtown Brooklyn. She is up upper she is right by, well, she is NYU uptown, okay, which is where the Hall of Fame was, Fordham Road, and about 200 and something street go up the West Side Highway. So, I decide to plan this evening for this first date for this hick from Connecticut. So, I decide the theme will be, I am going to show her how real New Yorkers live. So, I took up there, pick her up. I do not you know. First Date never met her, and the first stop was the Upper West Side to the Improv, okay, which was just opening at the time year or two. We do not remember what act we saw, but we think it was probably somebody like, was not Robin Williams, but it was Steve. What is his name? Could have been. Somebody? No, no, it was another guy. Used to be a school teacher in New York. Anyway, I have seen 1000 times. Cannot remember his name. He has been on Broadway a lot in the Wasserstein plays wrong. I cannot remember his name. Anyway, we do not remember what we saw. That was the first stop to about 10ish or so, and then I the next stop, I do not tell her, is to go from the Upper West Side down to the lower east side to catch this delicatessen. Okay, we are really, real New Yorkers. Hang out. So, we are driving down. We are making first date kind of conversation. What is your favorite color, that kind of stuff? Who is your favorite singer? What do you know, all that garbage? So, we drive, I drive, and I park, and she does not say anything. We go into cats' you ever been to cats?
BS: 1:00:50
It is cavernous. It is huge, and you have a choice when you go in. You can either go to the left for waiter service, or you go to the right for counter service. Waiter service, a little more expensive. I am a poor law student. I cannot afford the waiter service. I tell her I would love to have a pastrami on rye, but I cannot afford that. So, I have what New York is called two with which are two hot dogs [inaudible] and sauerkraut. For those who are not initiated, she announces that she does not really like this kind of food. It is almost like Annie Hall. She does not really like this food, so she orders a turkey on rye. I go get my two hot dogs with we continue our small talk and in cats as you get this little ticket that you, they punch as to how much you owe, we are standing on line now to pay. We are about three or four deep, and at the cash register there is this older guy, probably 30 years younger than I am now, but an older guy, little bit of a palsy, a little bit of shaking, and he is obviously an owner. He is looking around making sure nobody is stealing any silverware, that kind of a look. So, we are getting closer and closer, and then we get about one removed, and this old guy says, "Hi Willa." She goes, "Hi, Benny." What is going on here? So, Benny, turns out he is a minority owner of Katz's delicatessen. The majority owner is her uncle, Willa's uncle, Lenny, who is her mother's brother, Willa is named after William Katz, her maternal grandfather, who pre deceased her. She is named Willa because her mother wanted to name her after her father. So, she is named after the founder of Katz's delicatessen. This is her family.
IG: 1:00:50
Yes.
IG: 1:02:40
And she did not tell you.
IG: 1:02:41
What does your wife do? Did she continue working in a bank?
BS: 1:02:41
No, she-she, dropped out of, I think she dropped out of graduate. I do not think she ever got her graduate degree. Children were born. We moved out here. She started working for me when I was in practice, and kind of like doing my books and stuff, not doing any reception in and then when I got appointed to the bank, she was without a job, so then she went to work for a friend of ours. Was a lawyer, kind of running his office. And then I think he retired, and then she basically stopped working in that kind of a situation. She does a lot of charitable work. Now she has got five grandkids, and all that back is not great.
BS: 1:02:41
Never said a word, and Benny comped us. We did not pay. So, I am going, I could have a pastrami sandwich. And after we got married, we were still living in New York for those first three years. We used to get care packages from Katz. You cannot believe the pounds of roast beef that we would get hot dogs like an electrical wire. We did not pay for it. So that is my first date story I submit to you. It is one of the best first date stories you will ever hear. So, she never told me. She never she cut she was from Connecticut. She did not really, she said, this looks familiar. She knew it when she walked in there. But driving up, she never said anything, and certainly did not say anything when she walked in the Annie Hall thing, if you remember Annie Hall, Woody Allen in a deli with what is her name, Diane Keaton, and she orders like a roast beef on white with butter, and he goes, shiska. Was not quite like that, because she is not a shiska; so, but my wife, but she does not like this food.
IG: 1:04:47
Well, she is beautiful. I you know, let us think about wrapping up this conversation. But you know, the final question that I ask. What lessons do you did you learn from the-the- this time in your life, that Harpur College?
BS: 1:05:11
Lessons that I learned, the important importance of friendship, I made really good friends that I am so many. Some of them, I am still friendly with that. I am still the importance of having that warmth in your life, that support in your life, people who care about you, people that you care about. It was really a very nurturing place. In fact, when people graduate like Mickey Greenberg. You must know Mickey. Everybody knows Mickey well. One of me is very close friend of mine. We were teammates together. He was a great basketball player. He has died in the wool Brooklyn, New York. His parents were there. He lives in Binghamton. Since he graduated. He it is the womb. It was considered the womb, but there is that nurturing sense of the place that I carry with me, and I look back so fondly on, what did I learn? I mean, I learned what anybody does who becomes more worldly wise and on his own or her own, without parents constantly saying, do your homework, that kind of thing. You got to figure things out for yourself. But that is true in any that is true in any university, but in particular in Binghamton, I am not sure it was a learning thing as much as an experience of the warmth and the nurture and of the surroundings of the people that you were there with. It was an amazing experience for me.
IG: 1:06:41
Well, thank you very much for this amazing interview. Been very wonderful talking to you.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Barry Schneider
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Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae
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Schneider, Barry ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
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Recipient of Distinguished Alumnus Award. Principal of Schneider Mediation. Avid athlete at Harpur College. (His nickname at Harpur was “Peanuts.”) Mediation judge in Phoenix. He (Ret.) served on the Maricopa County Superior Court for 21 years, from 1986 to 2007. He first practiced in New York City and moved to Phoenix in 1971. He was an associate at Langerman, Begam, Lewis, Leonard & Marks until 1977, when he formed the partnership Rosen & Schneider, Ltd. He has a strong background in Arizona civil litigation from the perspective of both a judge and a civil trial attorney. While on the bench, he served on the Criminal Department, in addition to serving as Presiding Civil Department Judge and Presiding Family Law Judge. His 18-month tenure on the Arizona Supreme Court’s Committee on Jury Reform led to groundbreaking changes in the rules and practice of jury trials in Arizona.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2019-03-11
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In Copyright
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eng
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Barry Schneider.mp3
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2019-03-11
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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66:48 minutes
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2018-03-19
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Carol Reisner
Year of Graduation
1966
Biographical Text
Carol worked as a branch librarian with the NYPL for 34 years. She grew up in the Bronx.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the library profession; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City
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Subject LCSH
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the library profession; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City
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Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Carol K. Reisner
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 19 March 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
CR: 00:04
Now?
IG: 00:04
Yes.
CR: 00:05
Okay. My name is Carol Kraut Reisner. We are sitting in in Manhattan, 105th Street and West End Avenue. I will soon be 72 in another couple of weeks, and I graduated from Harpur in 1966.
IG: 00:28
And just tell us what you do.
CR: 00:35
I am now retired, but I worked for about almost 34 years, 33 years as a librarian for the New York Public Library in the branches, among other things, I was most of the time a young adult librarian, until, as they say in the brownies, I flew up and I became an adult librarian and I-I enjoyed the variety and connection with the public and books and stuff. So, most of my career, I was very happy.
IG: 01:16
That is wonderful. Um, where did you grow up?
CR: 01:20
I grew up in the Bronx. I am happy to say that the Bronx is coming back, but I grew up at a time where I think back you played in the street, you did not- parents did not worry about that. I went to public schools. I have gone back to my neighborhood, and then happy to see my building is still standing and looking not looking bad, though there are other buildings in the neighborhood that were torn down. It was a mixed neighborhood of Catholics and Jews. I would say lower middle class Catholic and Jews. And now it is much more Latino than it that is the Bronx.
IG: 02:11
Right.
CR: 02:15
It was a long walk to school. I remember that I was at the edge of our- the boundary of the school district from elementary school, but I did go every day, came home for lunch every day, and near public transportation, not far from shopping, not too close to parks, but we so we played in the street and um, thought nothing of it.
IG: 02:41
It was a different time.
CR: 02:42
Absolutely a different time. Absolutely a different time.
IG: 02:45
Where you felt safer to be on the street.
CR: 02:48
Oh, absolutely I was- when I became a parent, we did not let our children play outside on the street by themselves.
IG: 02:56
Who were your parents? What did they do?
CR: 03:00
I had one first I want to say that I did not know it at the time, but knowing people and their experiences are wonderful parents who did their best. My father was born in Poland, and I see him as a typical immigrant. Thank God he was able to come with his family. In 1922 with his mother and his brothers and sisters, not knowing English, he was sponsored by an uncle who apparently brought the whole family over. To me my father represents the Americans, the American success story of someone who came, went to school, who married, had a family, had his own business, who never imagined and he was handicapped. He had had polio in-in Europe. So, he-he told me at the end of his life that he had a marvelous life, better than he had ever imagined it, he-he could have.
IG: 04:10
That is lovely.
CR: 04:11
My mother was born here, but her mother came from Europe. She was one of nine. My father was one of five.
CR: 04:20
So, what did your father end up doing?
CR: 04:21
My father had a collection agency, and that is he worked for others for years, and then he opened, had his own business. My mother, my mother did graduate from college. I think she was the only one in her family. She went to Hunter, but she graduated in 1933 in the middle of the Depression, and she could not get a job, and so she did various and sundries, and it was until much later, in fact, when I was in college, that she went back and picked up whatever ed courses she needed. And she worked several years as a sub, particularly for kindergarten, early grade. Why? So that she could help put my brother through law school.
IG: 04:22
Wow.
CR: 04:22
And I think my father had some college, but so that was that. I mean, I do not know what else to tell you about my parents.
IG: 04:22
Right. So-so, you know that-that is, that. I just need a little bit of background. So did they encourage you with your education [crosstalk]
CR: 04:22
There was never a question that we were going to college. That was not a question. When I went to library school, they told me what, they were not good. They were not going to pay for that. And I said, "What kind of parent are you? You are not going to pay for your-" and I- they did not, I mean, they said that we-we paid for undergraduate school, which was a stretch. My brother have not had an older brother who went to City College, so they did not pay for that, right? So, sending me away was a big deal.
IG: 05:55
So, you did not get a regent scholarship.
CR: 05:57
I did get a regent scholarship, but they still had to pay for room and board.
IG: 06:00
Yes.
CR: 06:00
Which I know in the, in the in dollars today, seems like chicken feed, but it was $1,000 a year was not nothing.
IG: 06:08
No, exactly.
CR: 06:10
And, and so they said, "No, you will have to get a loan." And I did get it- I got a loan that I think I had to pay something like $27 a month for, I do not know how I did pay it off.
IG: 06:24
Right. So, what were- what was your thinking about Harpur College? Why-why did you want to go there rather than to CUNY here, to Hunter College, or it was, or any other SUNY?
CR: 06:40
It was an opportunity for me to go away from home, and believe it or not, my-my mother encouraged me to do that. She wanted me to do that. And I certainly applied to city. And I think I applied to city, I applied to Brandeis, and I applied to Harpur, and it did not get into Brandeis, which is probably good idea. And there it was. We had visited Harpur. It was small, which I thought might be a good idea. That is where I was accepted, and that is where I went. I had come from a very big high school, which I cannot say that I loved. High school was not the best years of my life. And there we were. I was accepted. It was, you know, I was something that they could afford. And off I went.
IG: 07:28
What was the reputation of Harpur back then that you knew of?
CR: 07:41
It was excellent.
IG: 07:42
It was excellent.
CR: 07:43
[crosstalk] only Harpur College. It was the liberal arts college of this- of SUNY, of State University, had a very good reputation, good enough for me. And I think I tell I think that it lived up to its reputation. I thought it was an extraordinary school, looking, seeing where my kids went, rigorous. I think the kids who went there were really sharp. The teachers were not all, of course, not all, but I had more than my share of superior teachers.
CR: 08:27
I was very young. I would never, I-
IG: 08:29
Right.
IG: 08:29
How old were you?
CR: 08:32
I was, I was 16.
IG: 08:34
Yeah.
CR: 08:35
I never think that that is a good idea. On the other hand, because it was a smaller school. It was not and I had my first boyfriend, so I, you know, I, for me, it was fine. It was what I could handle. One of your questions, I remember things, did you think it was a party school? Oh, my God, what a question. It was the anti-party school. At least for me, it was the anti-party school. People study. I mean, worked all the time. I remember I had a boyfriend who perhaps was not as studious as I-I said, “Well, I am sorry, got to do my homework” and-and people did. I mean, I am sure there was, there were kids who hang out, hung out in the student center, and played bridge. And I was not that. I was not that.
IG: 09:30
What did you study?
CR: 09:31
I was, in the parlance of Harpur, I was a social science major with a specialization in history, which meant there was a lot of reading.
IG: 09:40
Why did you choose that area of studies?
CR: 09:43
I love history.
IG: 09:45
So, did you have an idea of what that would entail? When you-
CR: 09:49
Did I know the rigor of what it was, [crosstalk] I mean, I love, I still love history? I love history.
IG: 09:57
Right-right.
CR: 09:57
So, there was no, I had no-I did not hem and haw.
IG: 10:01
Right.
CR: 10:02
American history, I took because I figured it was a little bit less, you know, spread out. It was something that could be, could actually be studied in a-
IG: 10:16
Right.
CR: 10:18
Oh, no, I had these. I had wonderful history teachers.
IG: 10:21
Well, could you name-
CR: 10:23
Dr. Mason [Bernard Mason].
IG: 10:25
Right.
CR: 10:25
I had for several classes. I used to say that, and unfortunately, I know he has died, but his class, you got three in one, you got his lectures, you got the readings and you got your paper. I took many of his courses. He was actually my advisor. Dr. Rollins [Alfred Rollins], who was another wonderful teacher, I think, was 20th century. Dr. House [Albert House], [inaudible] for Civil War era. Those are the ones that I have not I did not look them up. I do not remember so much the others, but those are the names that just come immediately off the top of my head.
IG: 11:14
What-what are some of the illuminating things that you learned from your professors that you did not know before about America and your life?
CR: 11:26
You know, everybody takes American history in high school. So, taking American history in college was a revelation, because you got to understand in a way you did not in high school, that nothing was inevitable, as we feel, oh, the American Revolution, of course, we were going to win. Ah, not so fast. Things had to happen that there are more than one way of looking at things there the economic interpretation of American history, which was more in vogue in the (19)60s. One of the papers I had to write was answering a question, which was that, was it maybe about Hamilton, the views, was it Hamilton or in the world's history about Catherine, the Great. You-you had to read the historians from different eras and how their-their feelings about it, how they approached their conclusions were different with the times. And I did not know that from my high school. It was so much. It was it just opened your eyes. It just opened your eyes. In fact, I even remember the little books we have. Probably still have them, the different interpretations of a particular event that was exciting. And actually, as a result of that, I decided I would not teach American history in high school. I would be a teacher because I felt that I would not be able to do that in high school, and that it would be, it would not be right, it would sort of be a, sort of a lie. That is what made it very exciting. And he and right, even then now, compared to what now, it is included that women did not get a big shake and-and we did not hear about the so much about African American take on things. I mean, obviously history, the study of history, changes over time. But even then, it was just an eye opening, eye opening to me.
IG: 13:46
Did that inform the way that you looked at current events?
CR: 14:04
Oh, yeah, it still does.
IG: 14:06
Yeah.
CR: 14:06
It still does. And I and, yes, we do not repeat history. But if you do not know history, you do not know how we got here, and we did not just, you just, you know, it is not like a baby just is born with nothing we have, and other countries have history. And I think it is a- it is really too bad that our country as a whole does not have a sense of history. They think they just live now. They do not remember anything. They do not know why we got here. They-they and is it the fault of our education system, perhaps. That is right, they do not make connections. And yes, it does not do it does indeed inform how I look at things and what I believe
IG: 14:55
And what you believe.
CR: 14:56
Yes.
IG: 14:57
How-how? Well, I mean, you just stated your beliefs that there is-
CR: 15:04
Because there are different ways of looking at things, and if you get one point of view all the time, you are getting one point of view.
IG: 15:11
Yeah, of course. Um, you know, there are different truths, there are different perspectives on each issue, which-which pivotal events of the time. The (19)60s were very turbulent years. You know the-
CR: 15:32
I cannot say-
IG: 15:33
-fabric of our culture changed. What events do you remember from your um-
CR: 15:40
I cannot say that I participated in them. I do, but I do remember that there was a group of people who would not eat lunch and say that they wanted the money that was saved by not only going to a certain anti-war organization, it was their protest. I did not participate in that. That that was even I became much more aware of that in the in the (19)70s than I did in (19)60s. I was not a rebel. I- so I, and I am still really not a rebel, depending on who you who-who you speak to.
IG: 16:29
Right.
CR: 16:31
Certainly, that was going on, um, the-the-the freedom, the sexual revolution. I did not participate in that kind of thing. What I do remember was that when I started at Harpur, there, you had to be in your room at 10:30 there was room check by the RIS. By the time I graduated, I and when I got there, seniors had the privilege of having a card that they could stay at whatever time. I think it was a junior. You got two of them, maybe as a as a sophomore. I remember if you got one night that you could check, you know, did not have to be back by, just by the time, by the time I graduated, I think everybody could get a card to check out, you know, that kind of stuff.
IG: 17:26
Just remind us, what year did you graduate?
CR: 17:29
I graduated (19)66.
IG: 17:30
Okay.
CR: 17:31
(19)62 to (19)66. I remember being annoyed. We were all annoyed because it was the senior privilege, and now it was not such a privilege anymore, because everybody had it. So, I am thinking back and of the other it was mostly the war not not the cultural stuff of freedom for women or gays were not a part of it at that time, sexual revolution, I am sure there was. I did not smoke pot. I just- I was not-
IG: 18:09
You were very young also.
CR: 18:10
I was very young and pretty naive. You know, I was not one of the swinger city kids.
IG: 18:19
Right.
CR: 18:22
So, I do not remember really participating in any of those.
IG: 18:26
Did you participate in any other student groups?
CR: 18:31
It was not- no, I was not a big joiner. I remember I tried out for a play once, but I did not. I cannot remember if I did I to- I do not, I do not remember. No, I was not active. It was almost as if that is a I had my schoolwork. I had a boyfriend, which was a big deal for me. I had my-my I did not have that many friends, but my roommate and I were good friends. In fact, we still are, and had some others that and, and that was as much as I could handle to tell you the truth.
IG: 19:08
Yeah, probably.
CR: 19:09
It was for me. It was, [crosstalk] I look back, I thought about it, and I-
IG: 19:14
Because you were a young person, yeah.
CR: 19:14
I am sorry that I did not spend more time socializing, because when all of a sudden, done. You make friends there that sometimes you keep them for life. And what I have learned, you know, what have, do not always, I do not remember.
IG: 19:32
Okay, but you know, what were you mentioned the Vietnam War? What were your feelings about that and, and what did your friends discuss [crosstalk] right- about it?
CR: 19:47
So, I think when I started out, I thought, "Oh, well, you have to support your government."
IG: 19:52
Right.
CR: 19:53
Like, again, the old thing, government is right. They have a point. Otherwise, you would not be doing this. And then, as you start, you know, reading a little more, or talking to people, or they you get, you start questioning. I certainly was not in favor by the end, by the time I left, and I do remember after I graduated, I remember going down with other people to Washington from, you know, these marches that there was a big-
IG: 20:26
With people, other people, not from Harpur?
CR: 20:30
After, right after library school even.
IG: 20:33
Were you afraid that your boyfriend might get drafted? Was there that [crosstalk] or was that too early?
CR: 20:43
I do not remember conversations about that. I do not remember I do not remember that being in front and center. I had an older brother, and he was given a medical deferment. So, there must have been, we did not know that there must, but I think that was also later, because they were still in school and-and I think they were going on, so maybe there was more talk about it. And since I do not remember, I do not remember anybody tearing up there, you know, you start, start mixing up events, and I do not really know remember if there was anything like that on campus at the time, earning of the draft cards.
IG: 21:44
Do you remember Kennedy's assassination?
CR: 21:46
Oh-oh!
IG: 21:47
Where were you?
CR: 21:47
Oh, okay, I will tell you exactly where I was. I was in my history class; I think a Dr. Mason class. We were early, right? And one of the guys I had befriended, who had been in the army, he was older, so I think I was there at one class started at 10 after one, at about five after one, he pops he saw me, pops in, and he said, Kennedy's been shot. And when the- our professor walked in, and somebody said about, he said, "What?" And he dismissed us, and we went, I went to this to the Student Center, to the snack bar, and found people, and I think we were listening on the radio, because I do not remember exactly when he was pronounced dead. It was in the afternoon, I think, and it was like, "Oh my God." And I think we watched the funeral on television.
IG: 22:57
Right.
CR: 22:57
And also remember, were not we there in the Cuban Missile Crisis.
IG: 23:04
Right.
CR: 23:04
That was another time people were really scared about that. They were very scared. Why was it during, why do I remember sitting also in the cafeteria, and it was dark and talking about and worrying what the hell was going on, that this was not a joke. And, you know, nuclear weapons, and was there going to be a war? I cannot- is that interesting? Cannot remember the dates, but I remember, really, people were scared.
IG: 23:38
Right. Were you afraid? What-what-what were your fears about the Kennedy assassination, that something-
CR: 23:47
Oh, my God, that something like that-
IG: 23:49
-terrible would happen, that something like that, the assassination itself-
CR: 23:53
-could happen, and then we will, we will, you know what it all mean. And I think, I think it was just the shock of somebody killing you, President.
IG: 24:05
Right. That we were so vulnerable.
CR: 24:08
Whoever heard of that we did not know. I mean, later on, you know, you found out that, that it was before us when Harry Truman also was subject to assassination, we but we did not know that I was-
IG: 24:20
Right, but Lincoln-
CR: 24:22
And that, yeah, Lincoln, look at all you know, when the country was in turmoil. Oh, my God. I mean, that was before all the others that happened, that the commonplaceness of assassination and killing, this was, it was like, almost unbelievable.
IG: 24:44
So somehow, you know your
CR: 24:47
It is[crosstalk] your foundation, I mean [crosstalk]
IG: 24:49
Right, exactly.
CR: 24:50
It does. It does.
IG: 24:51
That is what I would think.
CR: 24:52
Yeah.
IG: 24:55
So, when you graduated, um, uh, what was, you know, give us an overview of your career trajectory. Did you go on to graduate school or-
CR: 25:08
Yes.
IG: 25:08
-right away? And where did you go? Where did you live?
CR: 25:11
I-I remember going to my guidance counselor in the, I think, the end of my first term of my senior year, when he had to start thinking, and I had decided when teach, that is what I had decided. So, what was I going to do? Actually, went because I had no clue. And I remember him, and I do not remember who he was. Was-was it Dr. Mason, I do not remember if it was, if he was my it could have been, he said, "Well," he said, whoever said, "Two possibilities, you could go into museum work and you can get a master's in museum work at the University of Maryland."
IG: 25:57
Yeah.
CR: 25:57
That [inaudible] museum work, whatever- for some reason-
IG: 26:01
Why did he suggest that? Why did he- because of history.
CR: 26:04
Because of history, I love history, um that that was a something that might be helpful, and all I could think of was cut and pasting, making signs do I cannot cut and paste for beans. And the other thing was to become an archivist and go to library school. Oh, well, that sounded okay, and that is what I did. Great. I applied to graduate school, and I went to have decisions get made. I was this. I applied. I did not want to go home either. I did not want to go to New York. I did not want I did not want to go Columbia. So, I applied to University of Michigan, and actually the University of Wisconsin, and I was accepted, but the guy was dating was going to the University of Wisconsin, and I thought it would be a better idea not to go to the same place. And I went to University of Michigan. It was a very different experience. Let us-
IG: 27:16
Because it was larger?
CR: 27:17
It was huge, a whole different experience. Let us just say that I always give money to Binghamton or SUNY, which maybe they do not think it is enough, but I always give money. I have a very and I never give money to Michigan, one because it is so big. I was only there for a year. I mean, that was the good thing about my masters, that it was, it was only 30 credits. I could do it in a year or a little more. I did not have to take, I could take two courses outside of library school, which I took, one in history and one in geography. You can see, and you know, is okay. It was okay. I always felt that the-the campus itself was an interesting the first semester, I lived off campus, what a disaster that is, and I finagled my way the second semester into living closer to the campus in an apartment. I always thought that there was a great divide between the undergraduates and the graduates, the-the undergraduates I stereotype as sweater sets and the graduate students like me. You know, schlubbies here. I remember going to them. This is- we went, we went to the football games. I thought this was a hoot coming from Harpur. The first thing you
IG: 28:45
Which had no sports to speak of.
CR: 28:47
Well, they did. They had a track and field then basketball, but they would not [crosstalk] and I graduated. No, it expanded because it was starting these graduate programs. But the first day on campus at the University of Michigan, you learned two things. You learned to hate Michigan State, and you learned this fight song. I thought, I thought this was crazy. [laughs]
IG: 29:14
Do you remember the fight song?
CR: 29:16
Of course, hail to Michigan.
IG: 29:22
Yeah.
CR: 29:23
it was, it was a hoot, [crosstalk] it was a hoot. And I was library schools is library school. That is a whole other world of experience.
IG: 29:34
Okay, so you graduated-
CR: 29:35
And I graduated from there, [crosstalk] and I came back to New York after toying with the idea of going to California, until I realized I did not know a soul there, and even more important, I do not drive, which I still do not drive, and I thought that-
IG: 29:52
Woman, a woman after my heart, I am learning.
CR: 29:57
Well anyway, it is good for you, because I am- one of the- that is probably the most, the most important thing I wish I had mastered. I am not going to do it now. I am and that is where I live in New York and but I came back home. I lived at home for a year because while my parents- let me, we are happy to have me home and-and when I said, "No, I am going to move out," they did not offer to help me. So, I had to stay home and earn, you know, I would save money so I could move out. And I did move out with a friend from high school. And in fact, we moved to West 95th Street. We sublet an apartment from-from gals I met on a trip who wanted a two-bedroom apartment, and they moved to 108th and they we sublet their apartment on 95th Street.
IG: 30:55
So, what was the Upper West Side back then?
CR: 30:59
Oh, it what- in some ways, I am sorry it is not more like that now. Now it is, this is, this is too upscale for me. It was much more of a mix. Now, on the other hand, we lived through the-the (19)70s and (19)80s of New York City, which was not great, but in terms of neighborhood, they were supermarkets, there were movie theaters, there were shops, there were a mix, much more of a mix of folk.
IG: 31:36
And by saying not, not so great. Well, there was a crime element.
CR: 31:41
Well, absolutely I was, I was held up in the elevator- my- in that building, I can remember it now, my-my fear and my and they took my watch, which was a present, graduation present from my parents. And I remember, I did not want to tell them, and I know I still have it, though it is I remember buying my own watch that was as similar as I could to it so they would not know. But I- yes, I have had other incidents too, yes, and the subways were undependable. And, you know, on the other hand, it was more affordable. I mean, I started my career as a librarian, $7,000 a year.
IG: 32:24
And where did you start?
CR: 32:26
I- my- the New York Public Library. [crosstalk] They took me when I first started, still living at home, and that was in the Bronx. They sent me to a branch in the Bronx, and I will tell you, I had never been to that part of the Bronx in my life.
IG: 32:44
What- describe it.
CR: 32:45
This was, now, I grew up near Yankee Stadium, and there were part six, six story apartment buildings, one next to another. Some were walk up, some were elevated. There were, you know, sidewalk apartment house. All of a sudden, I was sent to this area, the Bronx. They are private homes. People had gardens with roses. It was much more open. I was like, "Oh, my God, this is a completely different section of the Bronx." It took me an hour to get there. By the time I moved out a year later, I had trained. I had gone to another branch, which was closer actually to my parents’ home, but it was an easier subway trip. That is why you asked me where I started. I remembered those trips, and when I worked in the library, I worked, I only worked for the New York Public Library, but there was opportunity when I started to advance and change so you so I ultimately left the Bronx and started working in Manhattan, and even then, I worked in branches. I worked in the office. I worked at big branches. I ultimately, I ended up back. I got married, I became pregnant, I had a baby, and I took some time off, then when it was time for me to go back, I only went back part time. And an opening came up in my neighborhood branch, and at first, I was leery about taking it because, you know, it was a chance to get away from the neighborhood.
IG: 34:40
And what kind of position was that?
CR: 34:42
That was as young adult librarian.
CR: 34:44
And I ultimately took that position, and it was wonderful, because I could walk to work. I was in work at 10 minutes, if anything happened, I was home like my kids went to school. I could pick them up and take them to the doctor at my lunch hour, and I stayed at that branch for like 20 years. It became another library family, and then I ultimately left there and ended my career at another branch that opened up on near Columbia, also that I could work at. That was a less happy experience. And by the time I retired, I was very happy to go because the library had changed dramatically, and the things that were priorities when I started out were no longer priorities.
IG: 34:44
I see.
IG: 35:31
Such as.
CR: 35:32
Well, it was the introduction of the computer and less that changed the kinds of people who came in, what they expected of you. By that time, I was no longer a young adult librarian, but once the computer came in, the kids used to come in and ask, assume that I would do their homework for them. You know, I am doing a "I am doing a paper on- could you please print out the-the and" I- it is almost as if they felt that you are going to press my-my button and out of my mouth is going to come your-your paper. And that really was, did not sit well by me, you know, let and the people who started coming in just wanted to use a computer for different things. One, I was not all that adept at it. And two, I liked the book person, so there was less of that. And the emphasis, there were budget crunches. I worked. I worked at a really good reading branch. They cut the book budget to nothing. I just, I- what kind of public service was that, you know, [crosstalk]And I did not make I did not like it. I did not like it.
IG: 35:32
But you mentioned that you started out as a y [young adult] librarian, and you must have, you know, seen students through with their homework and their education. So, you had, you had a closer relationship with them.
CR: 36:32
Absolutely. I mean, I and I also stayed at branches. There was a lot of turnover, but by the time I got to Bloomingdale, I had different kinds of experiences. I worked in the office of young adult services. I had been I took other administrative things. When I came back, I came back there as part time. So, is it back at the beginning as a young adult librarian, so developed my collection? I knew the kids. I knew the parents. I was I was like and I got a reputation because I lived in the neighborhood too, that if a kid was having trouble, talk to me, and I would tell I would calm them. I would tell them not to do the work. Do not do your children's homework if they are going to fall flat on their face. Let them fall in flat on their face in junior high school, let them learn you got. And then there were people who would thank me, and they were people who told me to mind my own business, you know, or I would tell the parent, they come in with their kids, and they could, parents would start talking to me, and I would say, "Would you mind? I think I would like to talk to your child, if you would just wait over here," you know, because, and I did, I did get satisfaction, and I get satisfaction, well, it is now mostly adults, but I have had even kids, you know, I live in the neighborhood. Years later “Did you work at the library?"
IG: 36:48
Oh, that is nice.
CR: 36:48
I mean, that is you helped me. You, you know-
CR: 36:48
Right. What was the YA [young adult] age group that you serve from 13 to 17, or?
IG: 38:44
Yes, it was junior high school, high school.
IG: 38:49
I see.
CR: 38:49
That-that is about 12, 13 [crosstalk]
IG: 38:51
Right, reminds me.
CR: 38:53
Right.
IG: 38:53
I do briefly was a ya-
CR: 38:55
Oh yeah.
IG: 38:56
-branch for the Queen's public library.
CR: 38:58
Well, it was the same. [crosstalk] were you there?
IG: 39:03
In before returning to graduate school. I was, I mean, I had done my library degree, but I was there from, I think, 1984 to (19)86.
CR: 39:17
Because I worked with Ellen Libretto.
IG: 39:19
Oh, I remember her.
CR: 39:20
You remember her? [crosstalk] Queens.
IG: 39:22
Yes, I remember very well.
CR: 39:25
Yeah.
IG: 39:26
She was, you know, she was a dynamo. And-
CR: 39:30
Yes, very. Yes, very outgoing [crosstalk] personality.
IG: 39:34
I remember her. I remember right. So, you worked and you saw changing neighborhood. Did you still have a connection with you know your friends at Harpur, you mentioned-
CR: 39:50
I had one. I have maintained my relationship with one person.
IG: 39:58
Right.
CR: 39:58
Which was my roommate. We roomed together for four years, and while we were completely different on the completely different, she came from a very small town in Pennsylvania, big city girl, right.
IG: 40:09
Right.
CR: 40:14
Her father died. She never knew him before she was born. She was a very religious Baptist. I am not a religious Jew. She physically, she was different. She was tall, I was little. Yet we hit it off, and we stayed in touch. And why, I do not see her that much now, because of various and sundry reasons, we, my whole family, used to spend at least a week every summer with them.
IG: 40:51
How wonderful.
CR: 40:52
And they think of her as Auntie Anne and Uncle Bob. And yes, it was, it was and even now, we were still very different. She is more conservative and much more conservative than I and yet, underlying principles and what we value, it taught me that you cannot really judge like that. You got to talk to people.
IG: 41:20
And you can find connections even with people who are extremely who are very different.
CR: 41:25
Apparently-apparently are very different.
IG: 41:28
Yeah apparently.
CR: 41:29
I am very neat. She is a mess.
IG: 41:31
Yeah.
CR: 41:31
I mean, you could not think of more stories that we could tell. We laughed, but we laughed, and I remember, I do not think she would be upset about I remember rearranging the room when she had to do her paper, because I am very disciplined, and I took my notes on my note cards. You know, I am the that part of the world she is writing her paper at the last minute. She has her 20 books that she is consulting with her markers in it, and we had to rearrange the room so she could the bed would be better access for her to-to do her paper. I remember that, instead of I just remember that, and I used to tell her, see, there is a division. There is an invisible line in the middle. Do not want any of your stuff on my side. My desk was pristine. She told me in the beginning that the first, first semester, she was afraid of me.
CR: 42:34
Why=why?
CR: 42:35
Because I was very clear. And I also said, "Do not talk to me in the morning." I am very grouchy in the morning. Do not, do not be happy. Do not sing. And I am, I am-
IG: 42:48
Do not be happy. [laughs]
CR: 42:50
I am very forth. I talk like this. I always have.
IG: 42:53
Yeah.
CR: 42:54
I do not think she would ever come across anybody like me, because I growl, you know, until I had breakfast and it was okay.
IG: 43:04
Is that how other classmates would remember you? What would they say about idea?
CR: 43:08
I have no idea.
IG: 43:09
You have no idea, but it is, it is- it gives me a sense what my friend Ellen would say about me.
CR: 43:15
I have no idea. I have no- I did not. I do not really feel that is one of the regrets, as I said, that I spend more time-
IG: 43:26
With the others.
CR: 43:27
With making friends.
IG: 43:29
Yeah.
CR: 43:30
[inaudible] And I think back and I forgive myself, because you can only do what you can do.
IG: 43:35
Right.
CR: 43:36
And I do not think I am naturally brilliant, but I am hard working.
IG: 43:41
Right.
CR: 43:42
And I that is what I had to do. I had to do my you know; it was a lot of reading. How to do my reading, and I took notes, and I-I took time.
IG: 43:52
Is that advice that you would give to a college student now going to Binghamton to take more time to make friends?
CR: 44:00
I would add I would if they could manage it-
IG: 44:03
Right.
CR: 44:04
-to find more of a balance. I am not sorry. I mean, there you there are a lot of people who say we should not go back to college because I would have worked harder. And I do not say that. I feel that I did that and I enjoyed it, most of it, and I could not, I could not have done it any other way. I mean it. I could not have done it any other way.
IG: 44:26
Right.
CR: 44:26
So, but yes, and I also would say I did take a lot of music classes. I love that. Dr. Friedheim [Philip Friedheim], that yes, was a wonderful music teacher. Oh, my God, I took anything he taught, even though 20th century music, I took because he taught it. I took an opera class. I do not really like 20th century music or but he was one of the phenomenal teachers. I would say, take those classes, take art, take music, take things. That would, do not shy from them, because those kinds of things are with you for the rest of your life.
IG: 45:07
Right.
CR: 45:08
You know-
IG: 45:10
So go outside of your comfort zone, or it would be explorative.
CR: 45:13
That is that is personality. That is your personality. You cannot you have to be true to who you are at the time, be more involved. I am still not a big joiner.
IG: 45:24
Right-right.
CR: 45:26
I am not that that is-
IG: 45:29
So is this, is this, is this the message that you would like to impart to, um-
CR: 45:35
I would tell people that I do not know if they I think they have pass, fail now, they think they instituted pass, fail I am not sure.
IG: 45:41
Yes, they have. Yes.
CR: 45:43
And I would say, use it.
IG: 45:45
Right.
CR: 45:46
Take a chance. Take a chance on something that you think you would like. That I would do. I would say, yes, friends are important. See what you could see if you can expand that way, because that is now it is a university. Now it is very different. You went Harpur, there were three groups at Harvard. There was the Upstate group, there was Long Island. And there was the city, yeah, and that is the bulk of the- there was the graduate school is just coming in to its own, you know, beginning, but that so those were the three different groups of people that were there. And while I was certainly not a slick city, you know, I was not, in fact, somebody once said to me, "Oh, you are more like the Upstate people," which I did not take as a compliment. My roommate was from Pennsylvania. She was one of the very few outside state people. I had my own stereotypes of these different groups and where I would fit, and I was not an upstate kid, and I was not a Long Island kid, and I did not fit in with the slicker city kids, so I did what I could do. Now, it is a different world there. It is much broader. There are more, I think there are people from-
CR: 47:19
International-international students.
CR: 47:20
International students. There were very few international students. So, it is a broader world to pick from. You can eat more easily, I think
IG: 47:31
So, you feel that you cannot really give advice to the current student population because they are so different. They are-
CR: 47:38
Yeah, I do not think they need my advice.
IG: 47:39
You do not. They do not.
CR: 47:40
I do not think they need my advice, to be quite honest. And secondly, what I see from my own children was they are more absent again, take advice from their peers than they are from [crosstalk] So find out. You know this advice you are not going to listen. Maybe the pass, fail thing, because that is academic, and maybe it is just fine after yourself. I have learned about that.
IG: 48:11
What are, what are some of the most important life lessons that you have learned, do you think that could be benefit, beneficial to somebody listening to this interview?
CR: 48:22
In life, not necessarily at school?
IG: 48:25
Not necessarily at school.
CR: 48:27
You change.
IG: 48:28
Right.
CR: 48:28
You are not who you are when you are 20. You do grow. You do gain wisdom. So, you learn, therefore not to be judged. So judgmental.
IG: 48:41
Right.
CR: 48:43
I am, you-you through, sometimes, through adversity, you realize what is really important, and maybe not the small stuff.
IG: 48:57
Right.
CR: 48:57
But that also you cannot people you cannot you have to experience it yourself. The only thing that is taken me a long time to learn, but I am much better, is that you cannot really give advice unless somebody truly wants it. And I know that from with my own children, because I certainly was advice giver until I realized that, you know, I am here for you-
IG: 49:36
Right.
CR: 49:36
-but I have great faith in you. What do I tell people? My two mantras, at least in terms of their children, I said, you have to live long enough, and you have to have faith, and that is for children. For friends, you cannot fix them. You can, you can listen.
IG: 49:54
Right.
CR: 49:54
So, listen, wait, if they ask you, because I am actually somebody, when I am telling somebody a problem, I want their advice.
IG: 50:06
Right.
CR: 50:07
What I am asking for is a different way of looking at something that I that maybe I had not thought of, but I must [crosstalk]but I must be unusual, because most people do not want that. They want to vent. And that is, that is a role too. I think that is really-
IG: 50:27
A role of a very good friend or a therapist.
CR: 50:31
Well, that right, somebody said to me, make a good therapist, and that might be maybe, except I do not hear everybody's problems, right, I mean, I have other I have certainly have things for myself that it could work on, but that is what I would tell people do not be I am not a risk taker. I-I admire people who do take more risks. I um, when my son came to me and asked me, he wanted to go to study abroad, and asked me what my opinion and I quite honestly said to him, I said, I am not the right person to ask. I am not a risk taker. I took four risks in my life. I got married, I had two children, and we bought this apartment when we did not see it, they all turned out well, not always right away, but they all turned out well. So, I said, "That is what I said. I am not we are not risk takers here, but if you are going to do it, this is a good time to do it." You have no responsibilities. And why not, and why not,
IG: 51:42
And why not. That is, that is-
CR: 51:44
He did.
IG: 51:45
Opening the door for him.
CR: 51:46
Absolutely, I did not say no, and we, and obviously we would support him and help him if we could, but, but that is what I would tell people.
IG: 51:55
Right.
CR: 51:57
If they could hear it, that you have your certain personality you cannot, uh-
IG: 52:02
I understand. Do you have any concluding remarks?
CR: 52:09
I thought that it was wonderful for me to have had the opportunity to go to Harpur.
IG: 52:16
Why
CR: 52:17
I thought I got a great education. I just did, even though, by the end, I thought it was too small for me. You know, it is one thing to go to a small to 2000 people, you know, different classes, because, and I advise my children, in fact, to go to schools are a little bigger, not big, but bigger. But I just thought for this little girl from the Bronx who made her way to Harpur had these wonderful teachers. Loved most of her classes, I just have a very warm feeling-
IG: 53:01
I understand.
CR: 53:01
-towards it and grateful that I could go.
IG: 53:05
Well, thank you very much.
CR: 53:09
This was fun.
IG: 53:09
This was a wonderful, wonderful conclusion.
(End of Interview)
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Title
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Interview with Carol Reisner
Subject
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Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the library profession; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City
Contributor
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Reisner, Carol ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
Description
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Carol worked as a branch librarian with the NYPL for 34 years. She grew up in the Bronx.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2018-03-19
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eng
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Carol Reisner.mp3
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2018-03-19
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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53:14 minutes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/76252f56ad490efa814725f7b1c4f049.mp3
160abfba508ff039465b4a63d9c85147
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559e1873e4ea0767790c3f3a02bfcb16
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Oral Histories
Title
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
An account of the resource
In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
Creator
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Irene Gashurov
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2017-2018
Relation
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2018-01-12
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
David and Janet Muir
Year of Graduation
1967
Biographical Text
David is a retired philosophy professor who taught philosophy at Onondaga Community College. He owes a debt to Harpur College, which spurred his lifelong interest in philosophy. He met his wife, Janet, there. He earned his degree in philosophy from Syracuse University.
Janet met her spouse, David Muir, at Harpur; she did not finish her degree at Harpur College since she supported her husband through his PhD program at Syracuse University. She earned her degree at Syracuse subsequently and worked as an adjunct instructor in English at Onondaga Community. Looking back, Janet says they've led a "charmed life."
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Vietnam War; Harpur College – Alumni living in Marcellus, New York; Harpur College – Alumni in Higher Education - Spouses of Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Former Harpur students in higher education; Harpur College – Former Harpur students living in Marcellus, NY
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Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Subject LCSH
Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut
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Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Alumni Interviews
Interview with: David and Janet Muir
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 12 January 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
IG: 00:01
Okay, so David, please tell me your name, your full name, your birth date, our relationship and where we are.
DM: 00:13
My name is David Muir. I was born in 1945 April-April 13--the day after Roosevelt died.
IG: 00:29
The day? Excuse me.
DM: 00:30
Day after FDR died.
IG: 00:32
Yes-yes.
DM: 00:33
Died April 12. So I know, I know exactly what the headlines were in every paper in the country on the day of my birth. [laughs] And we are in my home, which is in Marcellus, New York, Dunbar Woods Road.
IG: 00:52
Okay, very good. Do you mind speaking up just a little bit? Okay, all right, so tell me a little bit about your family background. What did your parents do? Where did you live?
DM: 01:13
I grew up in Western New York. My father was all his life unskilled labor. Worked in various jobs throughout his life. My mother was a homemaker when I was first born. She went back to school to Buffalo State Teachers College, got a teaching degree and taught second grade after that. And so I was not the first one to go to college, but my middle brother, I am one of three boys. My middle brother, Richard, also went to college. He went to Buffalo State and got a degree in Art Education. My youngest brother Tim, decided not to attend college after thinking he was going to go to Harpur College as well, but he-
IG: 02:20
Thinking what?
DM: 02:21
He was going to go to Harpur College.
IG: 02:23
I see.
DM: 02:23
But did not.
IG: 02:24
But you-you did.
DM: 02:25
I-I did, and so-so uh, and I went in, you know, graduated high school in (19)63 and entered Harpur College in that fall on the trimester.
IG: 02:39
What were the expectations of you and your family in terms of education? Did they encourage you to go to college?
Speaker 1 02:52
Yeah, it was understood my brother, my youngest brother, not going to college was the exception. It was understood all the way through that, that we were going to college. My- I went to high school and that had homogeneous grouping they had actually pioneered at Kenmore. Kenmore system had pioneered homogeneous grouping so that we had blue circle groups, which were the students who were thought to be most advanced, were given more advanced instruction, and I was part of blue circle group from the time I was in junior high right up through senior high. So my expedition so I was surrounded by students, all of whom had the expectation that we were all going to college. And it varied, you know, what their backgrounds were, whether their parents had gone to school. But I did grow up in, you know, in Kenmore, in the school system I was in, and in the particular classes I had, that was everybody's expectation as we were going to college.
IG: 04:15
And so why did you decide on Harpur College? Was this your first choice? Or how many other colleges did you apply to?
Speaker 1 04:25
I ended up only applying to Harpur. Dean Porter came to Kenmore at Ken-Kenmore West, it was and they had divided into two different high schools. So he came to Kenmore West, where I was going to school, and it was a college night, and I talked to him, and he was tremendously enthusiastic about Harpur College. He was a tremendous sales salesperson for the, for this school. And I had some-some literature about it, and checked on it, and I just decided from that time on, that would have been November of (19)62 November of my senior year, that that is where I was going to go. And uh-
IG: 05:17
What-what do you remember? What reputation did Harpur College have at the time?
Speaker 1 05:25
It was, I think, just building a reputation. But what-what it did have was a very low student faculty ratio. It had a very high percentage of PhDs on the faculty already, and number of those PhDs were very young. So it- if you read about it, it was impressive. But the joke when we were there is, you know, you would say, "Where do you go to school?" "Harpur," "Harvard?" "No-no. Harpur," but the joke was, yeah, but in 20 years, somebody's going to say, "Where do you go to school?" "Harvard." "Harpur?" "No-no, Harvard." [laughs]
IG: 06:03
So what reputation did Harpur College have at the time?
DM: 06:08
Just building? I think it had a good reputation. It was the first liberal arts college in-in the state of New York, and I think because there was lots of money going into this. And the Rockefeller years, as I say it-it did not have a reputation that outside of probably New York State, many people would have recognized it, but-but as I say it was, it was building a reputation.
IG: 06:40
It was building a reputation. And what did you, did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to study?
DM: 06:49
Well, yes and no, I-I was sure that I was going to study philosophy, but I did not have a really clear idea what that meant, but that is what I ended up doing. I majored in philosophy and then went on from there to dig it, came up here to Syracuse, and got a master's and PhD in philosophy. So.
IG: 07:13
From Syracuse in philosophy.
DM: 07:15
Yeah, so-so what I had thought I was going to do turned out to be what I did do. So I guess, guess in a sense, and guess in a sense, I had, I had a clear idea of what I thought I wanted to do, and then I had to sort of discover that it really was what I wanted to do.
IG: 07:33
And so when you first arrived on campus, I mean, what- how did it strike you? Was it-it-it [crosstalk] a huge difference from the environment that you were used to?
DM: 07:49
Well, the major difference was coming from upstate New York, the percentage of downstairs who were there. That was a huge difference. First time I visited, it was a sea of mud, and you walked on planks because they were just finishing the dorm, set of dorms that we saw. So it-it was not extremely impressive in that way, when I got to campus and-and the- those dormitories had been completed, it was, I guess it was an atmosphere somewhat similar to what I was used to in high school, because, because of the homogeneous grouping, I was used to being surrounded by other students who were highly motivated. And there was a whole college of them. Our incoming graduating average of the class I came in with was somewhere around 63 or excuse me, 93 in (19)63 but it was somewhere around 90-93 was the incoming average. You had a number of people, the people who did not like being at college were people who were very bright. Wanted to go to Ivy League schools. Some of them had gotten in but could not afford them because they did not get financial aid, and they were unhappy because they thought that if they were there, their lives would be perfect. And then there were a whole lot of us who were perfectly happy.
IG: 09:24
Did you find any differences between yourself and the students from downstate? Did you think that there were any cultural differences or...?
DM: 09:38
Not-not. No, yeah.
IG: 09:41
I mean downstream, New York City, and Long Island.
DM: 09:43
Well, one of the, one of the things was that a number of them were from the, cannot remember, what is PS program, something which meant they graduated age 16. So there were a number of-of not-not the ones from Long Island, but a number of the people from the city were young, but these were people who became friends right away, as far as--well, still, we were just together at New Year's time with friends from Harpur who have been friends ever since. Of those friends, let us see two from Long Island and the rest from the city. Well, no and one from upstate, one other actually from Syracuse, but met him in Binghamton.
IG: 10:46
So how so you have this tight knit circle of friends that you have kept throughout-
DM: 10:51
Oh yeah-yeah.
IG: 10:52
-your life actually.
DM: 10:54
Oh yeah, yes, from, yeah, there-there-there were only, let us see eight of us got together this time because one person who comes regularly had knee surgery, lives down in New Jersey. His wife is not a Harpur grad, and Janet is not a Harpur grad, but, but, but we met. She was, she was a freshman, the same time I was so we entered together. [Janet speaks in the background]
IG: 11:27
What was that meeting like?
Speaker 1 11:30
Well, I think we met first because we met her roommate, who was at the-
IG: 11:37
Reception, yeah.
DM: 11:38
The reception, Bev Gross, but Bev Gross came bursting back into their-their dorm room and said, I met somebody else from Buffalo, as if, is it that was the rarest thing in the world? Not only was there one person, but she had met two others [laughter] at the cafeteria. Uh, but we met, I think the-the first thing was Patty's Wake, which was the introductory party that started off the-the semester back then.
IG: 12:17
Oh, tell me about that. Because this is a rich this-this is, you know, something that I really do not know.
Speaker 2 12:24
Oh, Patty's Wake we got, we got on busses, busses and went in. Oh, I am trying to remember the name of the bar. It was-
JM: 12:31
Sharkies.
DM: 12:32
No-no. Was not Sharkies. No. Sharkies was a, was a good place. This was a, this was a dive, but it was on the bus route, and so he and so all the freshmen would go Pat- the-the story of Paddy was that Patty died because he studied too hard and-and never had any fun, and finally he just wore away. So this was so in celebration of Patty's Wake. This was the back then the annual first, first thing that freshmen went off campus to do was go off and-and drink. What was it? 25 cent drafts or something like that?
IG: 13:10
And did it? Did it happen around St Patrick's Day or...?
DM: 13:15
No-no, this was, this was in the first this was in the first week of being here.
IG: 13:15
Oh semester, I see.
DM: 13:17
Very beginning of the semester, probably orientation week. I do not know it was, it was, yeah, this was the first thing and all, yeah. So freshmen went off [inaudible] so we met there. And-and then we have, we have been together for ever since.
JM: 13:37
We actually met in Whitney dorm.
DM: 13:38
Okay, did we meet?
JM: 13:39
[inaudible] came in and said-
DM: 13:40
Oh my god, did she, did she introduce-
JM: 13:42
the dining hall [inaudible]
DM: 13:44
Okay she introduced, yeah, because I had thought we had, because-because that was the first and Patty's Wake was very first week. Yeah. So anyway, that was so you drank a lot of cheap beer. And everybody you know, all the freshmen over drank, and the 16-year-old managed to get in somehow, and even though they were illegal. But it was 18. Was the drinking age back then,
JM: 14:07
it was a dry campus.
DM: 14:09
Yeah-yeah. It was. It was a dry campus because the student government kept being told that it was a state rule that you could not have a pub on campus. You could not have alcohol on campus, and then, oh, somewhere second or third year that I was there, some young, some of the-the student government leaders, went to Albany and found out there was not any such rule, and that began the process of bringing the pub onto campus. We mean, there is no rule we cannot do this.
IG: 14:49
Janet is on the conversation, which is a wonderful thing. Janet, would you mind introducing yourself so we would- please tell us. your name, your birth date, and you know what your affiliation with Binghamton is, well with Harpur College.
JM: 15:09
[inaudible] Janet, actually James Muir. James is my maiden name. I was born March 30, 1946, I went to Harpur, not as my first choice, again for financial reasons, I was not admitted in the fall semester, I- but I was put on a waiting list, and I could go in the summer ahead, if I wanted to, but I did not have, you know, the highest average from high school. I went to a very small school, smaller graduating class than David did. So I was a bit overwhelmed, I would say, by, you know, the whole size and atmosphere at Harpur. But what was fun was we were in the Co-Ed dorm, and at that time, they had the curfews, and so, you know, it was unusual to be able to meet, you know, David and the others, and we had friends in the dorm that would do things as a group, and that was really fun. That was really a nice thing to do, but at that time, they were switching to the trimester, and the course load was very heavy, so I found it overwhelming, which is why I did not stay past the first year.
IG: 16:44
Past the first year.
JM: 16:44
Yeah-yeah.
IG: 16:45
Okay. And where are you from?
JM: 16:49
We are from Easter, Elmo, New York, Western New York. David is from the north of the city, and I am from the south,
IG: 16:56
I see, I see.
JM: 16:57
So we had to go to Binghamton to meet.
IG: 17:02
So where did you continue your education?
JM: 17:04
Well, when I went back home, worked at Fisher Price toy company, and David and I were married when I was 19 and he was 20. He was still at Harpur just finishing.
DM: 17:19
And I still had a year to still had two semesters to go.
Speaker 3 17:22
Right. So we lived in Johnson City was it, Floral Avenue? We had an apartment there. I worked at Endicott Johnson while he went to school.
DM: 17:35
And then we came up here. I continued graduate school. She worked at Upstate Medical and then decided she wanted to go back to school.
IG: 17:45
So what-what did you do?
JM: 17:47
I went down at a community college. I graduated from there, and then I transferred into Syracuse University, and I have a master's in English literature, undergrad degree in English literature and journalism.
Speaker 3 18:01
Oh, so you remember [crosstalk]
JM: 18:04
It took me about 10 years to get back.
IG: 18:06
I mean, you were supporting a husband, right?
JM: 18:08
Yeah. And when he graduated, I said, “Okay, it is my turn now.”
Speaker 4 18:14
And so-so what did you, what did you do in your working life? You were uh-
JM: 18:19
I worked in the offices Medicare at Upstate Medical. I worked in business offices at both Fisher Price and Endicott-Johnson. Actually, I started at Fisher Price on the assembly line and-and I said to myself, I do not want to be a lifer putting these together. So I took a test for computer. What do I want to say skills which I did not have? I mean, nobody did at that time, but they brought me into the office, and I worked in their office after that. So that started me in office.
IG: 19:00
I see, I see. Well, so as-as married students, you had a completely different perspective on-
DM: 19:11
Yeah, we-
IG: 19:11
-the college.
DM: 19:13
Yeah. Well, let us see. We arrived in fall of (19)63 November, because that was the second trimester. Excuse me, and I went home to Buffalo the first summer. And then when I came back, I stayed right straight through until I had finished. So I actually I am commencement class of (19)67 but I finished my degree at the end of October (19)66 so I was back for my-my commencement in (19)67 but so for the last two trimesters. Janet and I lived on Floral Avenue off campus, but we still had, you know, our friends came over to our house. [laughs]
IG: 20:17
So it was, it was a kind of a seamless transition for you to, you know, move from dormitory life to your own apartment.
Speaker 1 20:29
Yeah-yeah. It was not, I do not remember any anything in terms of-of any kind of special adjustment. The only thing that was really tough was I had the ideal senior schedule. No class started before noon, but I had to drop Janet off. I- we had to be up before six o'clock because Janet started work at Endicott Johnson. I think it was something like 7:30 and I had to drive her to Endicott-Johnson, drop her off, drive over to campus, get there about eight o'clock and not have any classes until noon.
JM: 21:05
It is time to study.
DM: 21:07
And-and because most of my friends were either seniors or juniors, they were still asleep at eight. And so I would go down into the common room at Whitney and-and study or-or nap.
IG: 21:25
I am curious, how did you conduct your courtship leading to a marriage at a college with curfews, especially for women?
DM: 21:36
Yes, well, on-on her-her birthday that that spring, one of our friends came back with a car for second semester, only car among all of us, Alan Gurwitz and my mother had had walking pneumonia when I was in high school, and with three boys, we had to take over doing her chores for a summer. And my chore at that time was ironing, and so I had learned to iron, and back then you did not have wrinkle free shirts. And so I offered to iron five shirts for Alan if he would lend me the car for Janet's birthday. He told me afterwards, if I would told him one shirt, he would have given me the car. Five shirts, he was in heaven. So I ironed five shirts for him, and got the car and we went off had dinner, and then went to see Lawrence of Arabia, which is too long a film.
IG: 22:51
Yes.
DM: 22:51
Because this was a weekend, and her curfew was not 10:30 which it was during the week, but noon, excuse me, noon. Yeah, midnight, midnight. And so, yeah, noon, [laughter] midnight, and we got, we got to-to the intermission in Lawrence of Arabia, looked at the at the time and thought, there was no way in the world we were going to have a 15- or 20-minute intermission. Watch the whole second half and get back to make curfew. So I do not think Janet ever saw the second half of Lawrence of Arabia for another 15 years, nor did I, but no we- courting, I think is fairly easy on a college campus. If you have a close relationship, you see every you see each other every day.
JM: 23:45
Yeah.
DM: 23:45
So for that first year, and by the end of the first year, we were pretty much committed to each other. Then we lived in Western New York, so when I went home for that-that summer, Janet was on the south side, I was on the north side, but I was back and forth. You know, all the time I worked at a wholesale florist, which is where my father was working. At that time, he was a salesman for a wholesale florist, and I got a job there, and they would throw out flowers that were beginning to turn a little bit on wholesale level, which meant that they were still really good, because they had not even gone to retail yet. And so all that summer Janet had roses, probably-
DM: 24:34
-because they would throw out sprigs. The guy who handled the orchids, as soon as there was one spot on one of the orchids, and they come in sprigs, you know, as soon as you saw one brown spot, they would go out. And we were not supposed to pick them up, but I was not going to let these gorgeous orchids lie in the garbage. So I would pick them up and [inaudible], so she would get sprigs of orchids for that in that summer.
JM: 24:35
And orchids. That convinced me. I married this guy. [laughs]
IG: 24:40
That is lovely.
JM: 24:44
Yeah.
DM: 25:02
So-so, and then I went back to school.
JM: 25:05
But also because in Whitney, we played ping pong all the time. We socialized all the time, because it was a co-ed dorm.
Speaker 1 25:13
Yeah-yeah. The atmosphere, the atmosphere in Whitney, was very different. And of course, this was a different era. You know the- this was a radical notion of having one wing male and one wing female. I mean that, and that was as far as it went. At 10:30 you had the common areas were separated. The men had the upstairs, the women had the downstairs. All of all the vending machines were downstairs. So people would call down if they would hear one of the women downstairs call down, throw down money, and they would get, they would get things from the vending machines and throw them back up. But- and the other interesting thing is that when the 10:30 curfew occurred, a bunch of us, one-one night, sat down, and one of me said, "Okay," right, you know, "Why-why do the women, why do the women have a curfew," right? And you know, what would we think if we had a curfew. So-so remember, this was the (19)60s, when things were being challenged. And of course, by the time we were done-
JM: 26:24
[inaudible] early (19)60s.
DM: 26:25
This is early (19)60s. This is (19)63.
JM: 26:28
(19)63-(19)64.
DM: 26:28
And so this is when things are just beginning to be challenged. But-but tremendous change. By the time the- a number of our good friends left. They were in Co-Ed suites, in-in-in, what the-the?
JM: 26:50
Hinman [inaudible]
DM: 26:52
Yeah, the Hinman, the com- the complex is over there.
JM: 26:56
Yeah.
DM: 26:56
I mean, when we were there, they none of the, none of this was well-
Speaker 1 26:59
And, you know, because of the separate wings, we would have open houses, and you would be able to visit the others' rooms.
IG: 27:03
Right.
JM: 27:03
Leaving the door open, leaving, what, three-
DM: 27:12
Three feet on the floor and a door open.
IG: 27:14
So I am, I am interested, how did do you remember challenging any of these rules, or questioning these notions about segregating the sexes. Um, I mean-
DM: 27:26
Not there were not any, there were not any major-
IG: 27:28
Your-your close friends.
DM: 27:30
We talked about it. I do not think there were any. We did not get involved in any actual protests of it that I recall
JM: 27:38
How about the boards? They would, they call them, the student-
DM: 27:44
Judicial Board?
JM: 27:45
Judicial Board to deal with-
DM: 27:48
Yeah, people who buy violated curfew, yeah. We were the only dorm that had males on the on that-that panel, because, in every, in every yeah-
JM: 28:01
[inaudible] feeling that this was not fair.
DM: 28:03
Yeah, you try to be. Yeah. because I served on it for-for a semester. We had friends who served on it.
IG: 28:11
So if you had so the judicial board that you served on, how would the complaints or escalate. Who would hear them? What impact would that have?
DM: 28:25
Yeah. Mostly it was, yeah. Mostly it was violation of curfew, and you just had to decide. And there were penalties, you know, you had to decide, and whether there was a legitimate excuse, right?
JM: 28:36
[inaudible] campus, you would be restricted.
DM: 28:39
Yeah, and the- so it was, you know, that I think at that point we thought that it was ridiculous, but at that point we were not ready to-to start protesting. I think that came about just sort of naturally, as I say, by the time we were finishing up, the campus situation had changed tremendously from-from what it was, but it did. It did create for us a unique atmosphere unlike any of the other dorms. Because we did, it was just a group of friends and somebody say, you know, tired of studying, you would walk down to one of the common room, say, "Anybody interested in going see a ball game?" If there happened to be a ball game that, right? You know, basketball game, we go down and-and together, and it would just be whoever was there. And when we got a little bit older, and people, more people, had cars the place, we would go, Oh, I almost had the name of the of the dive, but I cannot remember, we go to Sharkies. Fact, that is where we did not go to the dinner that was sponsored at the reunion. The group of us who were there went to Sharkies because that was, that was the place we-we would go to speedies.
Third speaker 29:55
I have a question related to that. So were there any women like in your dorm that rebelled against this idea and took an initiative?
DM: 30:10
Not that I recall, I think that, I think there were some complaints about it, but at this point, this was pretty much what the practices were everywhere, you know, was not, it was not, it was not as, yeah, it was not as, yeah, it was not as if it this was something unique to Harpur, you know, I kind of understand. So I do not remember any-any kind of organized protest. I just remember that, you know, people beginning to question it, and-
JM: 30:42
It was more restrictive than what I had at home.
DM: 30:45
Yeah-yeah. That was something else saying, [crosstalk] yeah-yeah-yeah. A lot, a lot of- for some of the 16-year-old out of the city, it was different, I think.
IG: 30:57
How so?
DM: 30:58
Well, because they were 16 years old, although, I mean, I have a lot of city friends, and city friends are sophisticated in some ways, and parochial in others.
IG: 31:08
How so?
DM: 31:10
Well, because they-they are exposed to-to culture in the city of a rich kind. I mean, New York is one of the greatest cities in the world. So you are exposed to-to a richness of culture that you just do not have in certainly any other city in New York State, and in few cities in the world that you can match that. So they have that. But by the same token, a lot of them just know New York City. [crosstalk] So, yeah, so it is you know. So it is you know that there was an expansion of their world to be in upstate New York.
JM: 31:51
We took some friends to Western New York, to our good friends farm, dairy farm, and they were like, "Cows. Wow!" Me, "This is where milk comes from."
IG: 32:08
I am curious about the youth movement that was kind of growing in momentum in around that time, (19)63-(19)64. Did it have any influence on you? You know, rock and roll was beginning, um or...?
DM: 32:30
Well, the-the actually-
IG: 32:33
Sexual freedoms, drugs, that was all in the air, that was kind of filtering through-
JM: 32:38
And Vietnam.
IG: 32:40
-and Vietnam, which I will [inaudible]. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 32:45
The theme of our orientation, which was chosen by the upperclassmen who ran the program, was all the orientation was completely run by students, as I recall it, but their theme was, do not think that at your age, you have to now know what you are going to do for the rest of your life. Take your time. It you know who says you have to be done in four years, you can take as much time as you want, take a take a semester off, take a year off. Do right! If you are not sure, find out what you want to do. And three years later, you could not do that without finding yourself in Vietnam. So it was a tremendous- that was, that was one of the biggest changes, was that, all right, I mean, the-the war in (19)63 was-was not anything yet that had had really was affecting people. Yeah, I had a good colleague who graduated from West Point and was over there as an advisor in the early days of Vietnam. But I-when we went on the campus, that was not an issue. It became an issue. As I said, it became an issue of, I was reclassified one a three times, but never went.
IG: 34:09
I am sorry.
DM: 34:10
I was reclassified one A, which, right, which meant immediately draft eligible three times, but I was never drafted. I was as I finished up at Harpur in the fall of (19)66 and I was immediately reclassified one a I challenged that I was going to challenge it as an objector because I did not agree. I did not think we should be in Vietnam. Changed that to arguing that I was class of (19)66 not class of (19)67 because even though it was my commencement class, and if you were (19)66 on and you were accepted to grad school, you continued to get a student deferment, and my draft board accepted that argument. And so I was defied that gave me my deferment until I finished grad, graduate, grad school. And then I forget how it came that it was the three times but-but by the time I finally was draft eligible, they had had the lottery system, and they never got to my number. They were nowhere near getting to my number.
IG: 35:27
I am sorry-
DM: 35:28
They never got anywhere near my number. They- the war was winding down. Then I finished my graduate work in (19)71, right? And so I never had to. I-I had to face it in the sense that I went through a I went through a physical in Buffalo. I got called for a physical. Went through a whole physical.
JM: 35:50
And a lot of soul searching.
DM: 35:52
Oh yeah, because I did not, because I did not, I had pretty much decided I would not, I would not serve in the war, because I did not think that it was a war that we should have been in. And so-
Speaker 4 36:05
Was that, was that a common feeling among your friends?
DM: 36:09
Yes.
IG: 36:11
On campus?
DM: 36:12
Among the friends that we were just with or get together with regularly, two of them were-were graduates of-of (19)66 and-and they got their-their deferments and managed not to go. One of them got his medical degree and served in the Public Health Service out in Arizona with the Native Americans. But of-of those group, one way or another, none of us ever ended up going to Vietnam. Another one was a conscientious objector, but racist and atheist, and his draft board rejected it because he did not have a religious affiliation. He refused. He refused induction. Was a fugitive from justice for two and a half years, without them ever pursuing him. He- his first wife, and he decided on a divorce because she, although she agreed with him, she did not want to, you know, continue that it was an amicable divorce. But they were, you know, they were also a Harpur couple. He continued on his own. He ended up in, I think it was in Philadelphia, at a Quaker protest, sit down protest, and when they checked his record and found out, all of a sudden, they put cuffs on him. Off he went. He had to go to but when his case came up, the judge looked at it and said, "This is the most arbitrary decision I have ever seen by a draft board," because he had, he had documentation of his conscientious objective status, and they just rejected it because he had no religious affiliation. So after all of that right, he was, he was free, and the case was dismissed. But all of us, all of us, that was, I think, the-the largest issue, and I, none of us favored the war, and all of us, through good fortune, were able to avoid service.
IG: 38:32
And yet you grew, you probably experienced a very pervasive sense of anxiety, and that that really had an impact on your personal lives.
DM: 38:45
Yeah, that, yeah. Once I once I was given the, once my draft board accepted my status, as long as I was in graduate school, my anxiety, well, I actually was not, I think I got reclassified as I when I completed my master's, but they immediately reversed that on the basis that I was continuing the PhD program, that there was no, there was no break in my- in my graduate school.
IG: 39:16
Right.
DM: 39:16
So I had to, I had the master's degree, but it was, it was continuous graduate school, and so that was, I think, the second time. But that did not, that did not upset me, because at that point, I think I pretty much knew that it would be automatic, that I could write, that I could get it. So the most tension we had was when I was first reclassified, and we were-
IG: 39:40
At Harpur College?
DM: 39:41
We had just finished Harpur College. Actually, we were up here in Syracuse, because I, and I cannot remember was-was the reclassification come when-
JM: 39:58
I think it must have been up here in Syracuse.
DM: 40:03
Yes, it had. Yeah.
JM: 40:03
Because we were here in (19)67.
DM: 40:03
Yeah, but, yeah, but-but as soon as I, as soon as I graduated in (19)66 so it may have been, it may have been, it may have been November. It may have been November, December. I think it was November of December. And we were still down in Binghamton, yeah, was right after out of Harpur, we were still living in Floral Avenue that-that-that was the, that was the greatest tension for those two months.
IG: 40:22
So did you feel any support from your professors? Did they shelter you somehow? Did they encourage you to stay in school and pursue your graduate degrees to avoid the draft? Did you feel that kind of involvement from faculty or...?
DM: 40:41
When okay at Harpur, it, I do not remember it being an issue within my classes at Harpur. It was an issue when I was in graduate school here and in talking to person who was the chair of the department, he sort of, he did not really agree with me, but he did not say outright that. He did not. He did it in a sort of backhanded way. But so in that one instance,
JM: 40:42
But that was in Syracuse.
DM: 41:14
Yeah, but at Harpur, I do not, I do not remember being involved again. I was off campus, you know, from the time we were married. And I do not remember any- anything. On campus itself, except that the general atmosphere, pretty much of almost everyone I knew, was that the war was a mistake. So-so that I think that pretty much predominated. I do not know that we knew people who-who really were in favor of the of the war. Certainly none of our close friends were.
IG: 42:12
And do you suspect the-the faculty?
Speaker 1 42:16
My suspicion would- was that the faculty was, for the most part, not pro war either.
IG: 42:22
What do you remember about- were there any influential professors that you remember from Harpur College and that they took a personal interest in you and your career?
DM: 42:35
Yeah, the very first philosophy course I took, still not really understanding fully what philosophy was-was-was from, and by the name of C. Wade Savage, yes, because he went by Wade. And by the- my first philosophy paper, I got a D minus, minus. He did not fail me, but I ended up getting an A in the course. And he wrote a really nice note at the end, saying, you know, because I had let him know that, you know, that this was, you know, this is something that I really thought I wanted to pursue, and I had other people were writing philosophy papers- were coming and talking to me and writing their papers. And I-I started out very poorly, but he wrote me an encouraging note. And then I, there were two others that I took most of my courses from somebody else who did not use his first name. Thomas was his first name, but he went by Patterson, T. Patterson Brown, and who was and very young, Brown was published when he was an Amherst- at Amherst as an undergraduate, and I think got his PhD from the University of London at age 24-25 and was hired. And then Emilio Roma, who also was very young. So these were all people who were only six, seven, maybe eight years older than I was, who were there and I got encouragement. In fact, Roma had what I thought was the ideal life. He lived with his wife in a farm house across the border in Pennsylvania, because I did my senior thesis with him and-and I was finishing up over the summer semester, and he was not teaching the summer semester, so I-I drove to his house to go over, go over it with him. And he had two absolutely beautiful children living in this rural setting, you know, as a professor of philosophy, and I thought, what a wonderful world, and he died young. I cannot remember now how many years ago, but I remember seeing a notice that-
IG: 45:08
Do you think he might have been a role model for you, that-
Speaker 1 45:14
I certainly-certainly the he had. What for me was, an ideal life, you know, as because, as a philosopher, if you do not teach, they do not hire many industrial philosophers. [laughter] So-so-so yeah, so, so he had, yeah, and I got encouragement from him. I got encouragement from Brown. I took a couple of courses with Brown where there were only junior level. There were only four or five of us in the class, so it was a lot of one-on-one discussion. He was the one who had me go to Syracuse. Brown encouraged me to go on to Syracuse because I was, I was interested at that time in philosophy of religion, but at that time, philosophy of religion was sort of dying out. And he said, "Yeah, well, you got Austin at-at Michigan," but he said, "I would not really go there." He said, "Better go someplace that has a really solid foundation in history of philosophy. You are better off building on that and then you can specialize later." And he said, "Syracuse has a, has a good program." So I was accepted into three different programs, but because I was finishing in the beginning of November, nobody had money, right. Everybody said, “No, you can apply, but you are not going to be able to get financial assistance until the following fall.” And so one of the three places I was skeptic to was San Diego, University of California in San Diego, North Carolina, Chapel Hill and Syracuse, all accepted me. All said, you know, you can apply for financial aid, but we are not going to have any available. So-
JM: 47:18
Neither one of us came from wealthy families [crosstalk]
DM: 47:21
So we were not going to go all the way out. We were not going to relocate that far without any guarantee. So we came up here to Syracuse, and I was on finance. I had NEA fellowship, and I had a I got a Woodrow Wilson dissertation fellowship, so I finished without having to pay a cent in-in tuition, except for the first semester that I had to go in and back then that was affordable.
IG: 47:50
Well, I have this question, actually two questions. But first of all, what was the emphasis of the philosophy department at Harpur College of the time? Did it have a focus on the philosophy of religion, or what kind of philosophy were you studying?
DM: 48:12
I was, I was taking a smattering of courses. I do not know that I thought of them as having any emphasis, mainly because, remember, there was no, there were no grad programs. And if you have program in philosophy, it was geared for graduate programs. They were building one. In fact, the joke used to be retired studying, let us, let us go over the Esplanade and look for the graduate student. I do not remember how many. I remember only one ever being identified. So, you know, they were just building grad programs. So Harpur was pretty much a, you know, the range of courses, and I think, if you were majoring in philosophy, they expected you to take a range, and you might find something that you were mostly interested. I did- ended up in esthetics with Roma. Brown taught philosophy or religion, and as I said, he sort of discouraged me from pursuing that. But again, saying that, rather than pursue anything immediately, you know, pursue-pursue, general background history of philosophy, because that gives you a foundation to go any-any direction you want.
IG: 49:30
You had a very important experience in your first philosophy class from you know, you were- you did poorly on your first test, and then you completed it with flying colors. What do you think what changed you and what did you learn from that first course? Do you recall it at all?
DM: 49:55
Well, it was, it was, I think that it was simply a matter of-of focusing differently, on-on the issue. I cannot even remember exactly what I had done wrong in the in the first one, that was such a disaster. But again, just, I think, I think being in class, engaging in the classroom discussions. I think getting encouragement through the give and take within the classroom is what probably brought me to, you know, to doing better.
IG: 50:36
You said, you said, when you first came to Harpur you had no understanding of what philosophy was, but you wanted to study it. What did you learn in that first class about philosophy? Why did it open-
DM: 50:52
Well, I think that it involved [crosstalk] it involved critical thinking about important human questions. That is, that is because I spent my-my career teaching and teaching on a community college level. So I was teaching freshmen and sophomores, and so what I did for my whole career as a teacher of philosophy was to focus on how to develop critical thinking skills and apply those to the questions that human beings find, find most important. So I think that became my-my emphasis from the time I you know, from-from Harpur College on and right-right through my professional career.
JM: 50:53
Excuse me, but your classes, what was the class size? And you are talking about the give and take of discussion-
DM: 50:53
Yeah.
JM: 50:53
-and that depends. I mean, I remember the student ratio was very good, right? And so your classes were very small.
DM: 51:29
Yeah. I think the biggest class I probably had in philosophy was probably no more than about 25 students, and a lot of them were-were smaller, as I said, I took several classes with-with-with Patterson Brown, that there were, you know, six, seven of us in in the class. And, of course, there you get, you know, it was, it was very-very immediate, give and take.
JM: 52:18
When you get the lecture hall experience-
DM: 52:19
Yeah, vastly, [crosstalk] different yeah.
JM: 52:20
-different than philosophy,
DM: 52:25
But-
Speaker 4 52:27
Small classes. And did you have an occasion to discuss the ideas that you learned in class with your classmates and-
DM: 52:37
Some it was interesting. None of, none of the close friends of mine were philosophy majors. They majors in lots of different things, chem major, bio majors. They went on-
JM: 52:49
Psychology majors-
DM: 52:50
-psychology majors-
JM: 52:51
-math majors.
DM: 52:52
Yeah. So no, what most of my discussions were when people found they had to take a philosophy class. Friends of mine who were not into philosophy would come and talk to me about-about that, and I would- I was able to help. I think some of them
JM: 53:12
And your roommates saying "David, you are not [inaudible].”
DM: 53:15
Oh yes, I remember there was a running joke roommates or various friends would come into the room and when I would be lying back on the on my bed, say, "Do not you ever study?" And I say, "Yeah, I am." But-
IG: 53:35
So did-
DM: 53:36
Actually, that is true, because before you write a philosophy paper, a lot of it is simply the you know, the working out through your head, what you know, what-what-what you are going to do with it, but, but that was a running joke.
IG: 53:50
So do you credit your professors at Harpur College in really giving you the foundation for your future career?
DM: 54:01
Oh, yeah-yeah. I-I thought I had a wonderful education. I think all of the good friends that we have all considered that they had really solid-solid foundation from-from Harpur College. I think almost all of us are proud to be graduates of Harpur College. By the way, one of, one of the people who was there when I was there, was there when we came back for the trimester thing, Anthony Preus, I do not know if he is still there or not. Professor Preus, Professor Preus, he was in. He ancient-ancient philosophy was his-his area,
JM: 54:25
Which is one of the areas that you I went into.
DM: 54:49
Later on, yeah, but as I say there, I touched on various things. The only thing that I specialized at all in was I wrote my uh, senior thesis in esthetics. But for the rest of the time, it was just touching on lots of, lots of different periods of the history of philosophy in the different areas. You know, I took a logic course, I took an ethics course, and
Third speaker 55:12
So you were into classical thinking, classical-
DM: 55:20
Well, I have
Third speaker 55:21
Plato?
DM: 55:23
Yeah, when I ended up doing my-my-my doctorate in-in Plato, on Plato, on Plato's esthetics, actually, so, so.
JM: 55:35
But you used the Socratic method in your teaching.
DM: 55:37
Yeah [laughter]
IG: 55:41
Did you discuss what you were learning with your wife since you were living off campus? Did you how do you remember him during this period?
Speaker 1 55:54
I do not know. It is hard to say I remember one of the things, not while he was at Harpur, but when he was working on his dissertation, going to the beach while I was in at work.
DM: 56:06
That was my master's thesis. [laughter] I had a, I had a summer in which I was all of my courses were paid for because I was on a fellowship, and it covered the credits for my master's thesis. And so I was registered as a full-time student for all those credits, but my task was simply to write my master's thesis, and I would drop her off at work, and I would drive to Green Lake State Park, [laughter] spread my blanket on the beach and get out my books. [laughs] And if, if a friend of ours had not come back and needed to be driven around looking for a job, I would have actually completed it at the beach. I was had almost written the last part.
JM: 56:57
I also typed his papers. And then when it came to his PhD, I said, "No [inaudible], I am not going to type your PhD."
IG: 57:05
So you know, were there any women in your philosophy classes?
DM: 57:15
Yes, one I remember by name Laurie Billing, because the person who was most influential in my undergraduate was Patterson Brown. And Patterson Brown was married. At the time, he divorced his wife and he married Laurie Billing. [laughter] So yeah, and Laurie and I used to sit around and talk about because we- she took a number of courses from Brown as well as I did. So we knew each other from a number of different courses. So she and I would, you know, would talk over the material in the courses on a regular basis.
IG: 57:57
At that point, there were really no rules about professors dating their students.
Speaker 1 58:05
I think there probably were rules, but since he divorced and married her, I do not know that there was-
IG: 58:09
Yeah.
DM: 58:10
-I do not, I do not know. I do not know if that created problems. He had, he had real problems after I left. He ended up leaving without finishing a semester. And friends of ours found him in their suite, asleep on a on a couch one-one night. So what happened with-with him? I do not know. I never got a full-full account. I think it probably was a case of a whole lot of success and pressure from too young an age, because I think he completed his PhD at London by age 24.
IG: 58:53
You completed your PhD by age-
DM: 58:55
26.
JM: 58:56
-26.
DM: 58:56
But the 20-24 is-is, you know, because he had, he had expect-
JM: 58:59
He probably had a lot of pressure.
DM: 59:00
Well, he had expectations because he published as an undergraduate.
IG: 59:08
Right.
DM: 59:09
No, so-so anyway, that that I do not know what, what happened to him after that, and I asked once, and somebody else did not know either.
IG: 59:23
Were there any international students in your philosophy classes? Do you remember any students of color?
DM: 59:32
Not there.
IG: 59:33
International from anywhere?
DM: 59:37
Yes. Well, yeah, there was from Africa. I never got to be a close friend of his. Our other friends did. Who knew him very well. He went back. He was part of political and I am even blanking on his name. But you know, friends, yeah, you probably have because you. You have interviewed Jeff and Jan Strauss, and they were, they were close friends of his, but again, because I think he became a close friend of theirs at the time that we were off campus. And so I knew him, but very- I did not know him well as they did, and-and-
Speaker 1 1:00:21
That was the difference, I think, between when we were there and our daughter went to Harpur, and graduated from Harpur, well, from Binghamton, and she went there for the diversity and, and I think that it built up, you know, over the years-
DM: 1:00:40
Yeah.
JM: 1:00:40
-but I do not recall it being, I mean, to us, diversity was all these Jewish friends
DM: 1:00:47
for her, for her. What was really interesting, though, is-
JM: 1:00:50
I came from a rural area that there was one Jewish family, no blacks. It was very, you know monoculture.
DM: 1:00:57
Yeah, but my high school was interesting because even though we- I was, you know, in upstate, you know, North of Buffalo High School and was huge, my graduating class was over 600. I went, I went to eight graduation parties as a senior, seven of them were in homes of Jewish friends. So and, you know, I was raised as a Catholic so-so going down to-to Harpur, where there was a very high percentage of Jewish students, to me, was not unusual at all, but for a lot of upstate rural New Yorkers, you know, the that-that was a difference, but-but well, and you know, and just you know, there is, there is, there are differences between upstate and downstate, but never-never, never, any that that we found troubling or bothersome, as I say, you know, these are, these are these are friends we have had ever since. And, yeah, and, and I do not ever remember any clashes of that, of that sort. Again, it was, it was the beginning of open mindedness.
IG: 1:02:19
How about your family? How they, how do they look upon you, the philosopher, their son, the philosopher?
Speaker 1 1:02:27
Well, my father never quite got it right. I had to constantly correct my father on it. My mother, my mother idolized PhDs, so the fact that I got one was-was something that was tremendously important to my, to my mother, so that you know that-that, I guess, was, was, of yes, as I said, of tremendous importance that my parents were in the as I went off to school, my parents were in the process of getting divorced, and that is another real good friend of ours, also from Harpur days, who lives in Larchmont. She is right across the tracks from Larchmont, but she and I formed a close bond because both of us had family tensions that we were really happy to be at Harpur because we were away from those family tensions.
DM: 1:03:34
Well, that is part of the reason we got married so young, was David did not want to go home, and I did not want to be home.
IG: 1:03:41
So you know, during your time at Harpur College, during your years, what changes did you see the campus go through the physical campus?
DM: 1:04:00
Yeah, well, they started the building. Let us see they built the-
JM: 1:04:03
The camps in the woods.
DM: 1:04:06
-the administration tower went up. They actually, they were just building the-the ones down the hill, when we first started, when-when we were first there, there was only one dining hall. It was Newing when they when they started the second one, most students called it brand Newing. The-the dorm complex opened, I think, the second year, which was the one by Lake Lieberman and-and my story of Lake Lieberman is different from everybody else's story about Lake Lieberman, so I do not know what the real story is, but my story about Lake Lieberman got his name because a bunch of student government people over the summer wanted to name the lake they went randomly through a list of students. Finger landed on Elliot Lieberman. He was not attending that trimester, so they called him up and paid his bus fare to come in, up, dedicated the lake to him, and then threw him in. And Lake Lieberman was just that. I do not even know if it is filled in, it is just a pond anyway, that is that is the story I heard of how Lake Lieberman got his name, named for Elliot Lieberman, and he was special invitation. He was a student. He just was not attending that-that semester. But you know that by the time I was the commencement, we had friends who were in, you know, in the-the new dorm, complexes that were being built when we first started there. You know, it had the shape of the brain, and there was nothing to the- let us see, that would have been the south off the top of the brain. That was just all woods. In fact, I used to hike through that. That was, it was I started that as a, as a habit when I was in high school. I just go out for long walks as a way of relieving tension. And I would just wander off over that hill and through-through the woods, sometimes even at night, just, you know what, if it were clear enough that you could see where you are going. So, so that is all champion. You know, what was all wilderness now is all, is all developed. And then, yeah, and then, then we, you know, we had the-the Esplanade, which was the site every year of the stepping on the coat ceremony, which you probably, if you have interviewed other people-
IG: 1:06:46
Yes-yes.
DM: 1:06:47
-which was- it would be, you know, there would be one, one person who was formally discarding the coat. And then they would, and it would, I it was either April 1 or the first week of April. But anyway, you take off the coat, and then they would recite one that [citing in old English], throw it down and stamp on it. And that was the-the official start of spring was-was the stepping on the coach ceremony?
IG: 1:07:25
You went through enormous changes during your undergraduate career, personally and intellectually. And how did you- at the end of this period? How did you begin- did you have any How did your perception of where you came from, of yourself change during this period?
DM: 1:07:49
Oh, I do not know that. I do not know that I would say that there was, I do not, I do not think that I went through anything during that time that I would call a major change. I think it was just a sort of steady progression of who I was from the time I was in high school, right through my undergraduate, I formed friendships. I had formed strong friendships in high school. I still were getting together with a couple in a couple of weeks, he and I have been friends since seventh grade, and so, you know, I do not know that there was any major change, except, of course.
JM: 1:08:45
No, I was thinking, you came in join Newman Club.
DM: 1:08:50
That, okay, the major-major change was probably my religious beliefs. The first thing I did was join Newman Club. I was up here in Syracuse the first week that I was on campus at Harpur, because I came up with somebody they wanted, they needed somebody to represent Harpur College's Newman Club at a at a statewide Newman Club mentioned, and I came up here for that,
IG: 1:09:18
And the Newman Club was after Cardinal-
Speaker 1 1:09:21
No, yeah, that yeah, that is, yeah, that is the, that is the campus-campus Catholic youth student organization. And so I, that was the first thing I joined. By the end of the-the first semester, I told the head, the- then president-
JM: 1:09:42
John Phillips.
DM: 1:09:43
John Phillips that I was dropping out of Newman Club because I was no longer a Catholic, and he knew that I was going with Janet, and he told me that it would never last, which is why we are still like. Other, yeah, which is why we are still together. It is just despite John, [laughter] I was not let him be right, but, but that and I went from that, I mean, you know, we have talked personally, I went from that to-to having no religious faith at all. I- religious skeptic. Even though I taught philosophy of religion for 20 some years, I would never let them know where I sit. I wanted them one day to be sure that I was a firm theist, and be sure the next day I was an atheist, and the day after that, because I wanted them to think for themselves, and I wanted just to introduce them to the give them the tools by which they could do some serious critical thinking about it, but that my own serious critical thinking just led me to doubts. And doubts are not things that you choose. Doubts come just as you, as you entertain them and-and once they-they become that way. I mean, if you doubt a person, a person's integrity, you cannot choose.
IG: 1:11:13
No-no. Well, how did these doubts arise at you know, from-from this early period in your intellectual life?
DM: 1:11:24
I think it had, I mean, I think that I chose philosophy simply because what little I knew about it was that it was asking, you know, asking questions. And so the doubts-doubts come, which is why so many strict fundamentalists do not want questions raised.
JM: 1:11:49
And your grandparents, your grandparents growing up?
Speaker 1 1:11:53
Well, yeah, I grew up in a very interesting environment, because my-my grandparents were people who were Protestant and thought of all Catholic as papists, but my father had been raised as a Catholic, and so my mother converted and promised that the children would be raised as Catholics. And but when I was with my mother's parents, and that was really close to them, I was born when my father was in Tinian in the war, and so I was born into their home. And so she taught Sunday school, and I would be as a little toe head. I would be, I would go along with her to Sunday school. So I, you know, [crosstalk] I was exposed since then
JM: 1:12:40
-in the sense of, you know, why would my grandparents go to hell?
Speaker 1 1:12:45
Not-not then, not, then I raised. My questions actually were raised when I first had lots of Jewish friends in high school and-and it seemed to me absolutely absurd that they, you know, the- my good friend Bob and I, who were Catholics, were saved. Our friend Dave, who was Protestant, had a smidgen of a chance, because he might come, he might come around. And our good Jewish friend Dick was, you know, he did not have a snowball's chance in hell [laughter] of ever making it, and all of this just seemed ridiculous to me.
IG: 1:13:23
Right.
DM: 1:13:23
And so my question, my questioning came about, religion came from-from early on, and then when I went but-but I was still, I was still a firm believer when I went [crosstalk]
JM: 1:13:33
-into philosophy.
DM: 1:13:34
Yes, yeah-yeah. Those are the, those are, yeah, those are the basic questions. And people still ask those questions. I mean, philosophy, what the earliest philosophers are asking those questions? Plato was the first one to develop a theory that there is an immortal soul. I mean, that is comes out of Greek philosophy. Does not come out of Judeo-Christian tradition. It is integrated into it much later. So-so those, yeah, those, those were what led me. So I think it was, it was just that experience, the continuing of the experience I had. I have been tremendously fortunate in the friendships that I have had throughout my life, people I would trust implicitly with, you know, with anything important to me and to have had so many from high school through college to now, has just been-been wonderful.
IG: 1:14:32
Did you keep in touch with any of your professors?
DM: 1:14:38
No, as I say once I came up here, Brown, shortly thereafter, was-was gone. I think Savage had taken a job somewhere else already, and Roma was the only one who was still there that I had connection with, and I did not, I did not keep up connection with-with-with him. So no, the other person actually was interesting. I was just thinking the other day. Another person who had influence on me was Edmund Wilson [Edward Wilson], who was a black sculptor. Because I found I could take my fine arts requirement by taking a studio art course. And I had always loved to draw, but had never really pursued it, and I took just an introductory drawing course from Edmund Wilson, and Wilson taught me how to look at things and how to conceptualize. And I took, yeah, I took a second course from somebody else who was a shy man. I cannot even remember his name. He was shy. The second course was all art majors, and he would talk to them. And I just felt kind of lost, so I just did whatever projects were necessary to get through it. But Wilson, I- we just fiddle around with drawing for ages. And then when I was coaching, I had a student who wanted to know if she could find a figure drawing class, and asked me if at the college there was one, and I called over it was, and they said, well, one of our adjuncts runs a program over at the Westcott center. So I knew she would not, she did not have transportation get over there. So I-I have been interested in getting back into drawing. And so I took her over there, and I have been doing that ever since. But it- you know, so the drawing has been, is now a part of my life, has been a part of my life. But Wilson-Wilson had a had a real influence, because I thought he was going to teach me how to draw, and he did not. He just taught me how to look and how to conceptualize. And-
IG: 1:17:14
Far more important.
DM: 1:17:15
It was the key was, and it was something that stayed with me right until I finally had an opportunity to do something on a regular basis, and-and I have been doing that for what, 25 years, I have been going to open figure drawing and-and just enjoying that. So-so yeah, Wilson was- he did a series of I went into his-his studio once or twice. Later, I guess I cannot remember what the occasion was, because I was not taking courses from him, but he did a series called minority man, you know, and as a black sculptor, they were all in wood, and they were very expressive. They were emotional. They-they were figures in emotional trauma just done in-in, you know, in what I, you know, getting tree things, and then just carving them. But they were very powerful. And I saw one of his works in one art history thing that I saw after that, but-
IG: 1:18:29
That must have been highly unusual to have a Black art teacher.
DM: 1:18:38
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 1:18:40
Pretty much all one school.
Third speaker 1:18:46
How diverse the faculty was at that time?
Speaker 1 1:18:48
I do not remember it being an overly diverse faculty, but Wilson-Wilson had a tremendous impact on me because-because he not only was an artist, but he knew how to teach art, you know, and that is, that is, you know,
JM: 1:19:01
That is a gift that.
DM: 1:19:03
Yeah, that is a gift as well, yeah, and-and he and your grade was on the basis of how he thought where you went, from where you started to where you finished. So there was a young man in there who could not draw to save his life. He would work hard at it, right. [laughs] But Wilson did not fail him, because he worked hard at it, and he was encouraged to do that. The other thing about the difference, going back to how things were different back then, the art studio was open 24 hours a day. The only thing you did not have access to was painting stuff or clay materials, because those you had to pay for. But all the drawing materials, which included, you know, chalks, pastels, uh, charcoal, you know, and drawing paper was there. And I remember one of the projects-
IG: 1:20:07
And the doors were open,
DM: 1:20:08
-and the doors were open. One of the projects was, I just was not getting it. And so I went over there at, I think, 10:30 at night, and sat down. It was a, it was a pen, and pen and ink still life that I was supposed to do, just a series of bottles, and I had done them, and I, you know, he would go by, and I would look up expectantly, and he would shake-shake his head, no. I mean, he would just say no, right? Actually, we never say no. He just, you know, and I knew that I was not getting it and but I could go over there at night and just work on this on my own. So I went over there, and the bottles are all there, right. And I am looking, I am drawing, no, that is not right. I am doing that, and it is just outlines, right. That is not and all of a sudden, I drew an- oh, right. And I stopped looking at the bottles, because I draw them so many times, I knew all their shapes, and I drew five in a row that I knew he was going to say yes to. Because, again, it is a matter of looking right.
JM: 1:21:10
Yeah.
DM: 1:21:12
But-but that was the thing. It was those materials were just available at the- at dinner. Only time I have ever put on weight in my life was the first spring semester I was there because I ate two dinners every night. [laughter] My roommate and I had a, had routines going. We played off each other at the table, and group would we go over there early, and a group would sit down with us, and then they would all leave, and we would go back and get a second meal, and another group would join us and go through a second meal. But you could do that. We had lobster tails and steak once a month for birthday-birthday right.
IG: 1:21:57
At the cafeteria?
DM: 1:21:58
At the cafeteria, lobster tail and steak once a month for- we for special events, they would have a roast beef where they would cut off, you know, you want it from the rare part, right. Unlimited- go back for milk, anything you wanted that first couple of years was unlimited. I had a friend going to Hamilton, who ate nowhere near as well as I did for all the money his parents were paying to send him to Hamilton.
JM: 1:22:29
I remember, you know, a bunch of us from Whitney would go over, you know, and he and his roommate, also from Kenmore, at that time, would be doing these routines back and forth. And they were so funny, you know, and everybody was spraying their juice, laughing, things like that. And I remember that. I do not remember the food, except for Blintz. Oh, I could not understand why a Blintz was a dinner.
DM: 1:22:55
Yes, they would, they would serve Blintzes as dinner
Speaker 1 1:22:57
And bagels and locks, no, that is just no food.
DM: 1:23:04
But-but also, when they opened up brand Newing, they had the sandwich lady. And I was- no, I just, I might have gone there once, but the people who regularly went there the sand- is sandwich lady would make up any kind of sandwich you wanted. And you have seen dagwoods, well, people would walk out with sandwiches this high, yeah, okay, that, right? And then that, then, then some of that, right. Another slices, then some of that. [laughs]
IG: 1:23:32
Did you take food into your dorm?
DM: 1:23:35
I think they were eating those just at the cafeteria that was just said, Just be lunch time ago, and sit at a table, and because it would be tough to carry it, they did not bag it for you. It was not, was not a fast-food place.
IG: 1:23:45
The cafeteria was opened certain hours, right?
Speaker 1 1:23:48
Yeah-yeah. The cafeteria was, yeah. Cafeterias just-just open for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
IG: 1:23:53
What was your relationship with the library? Did you spend a lot of time in the library, or was it open all hours?
Speaker 1 1:23:58
I do not remember if it was open all hours. I remember being in the, I remember more in graduate school, because I-I had to, you know, I had a carrel that I had used there, but I remember some very clever graffiti in the Harpur College Library men's room, [laughter] but yeah, the- I do not remember spending that much time in the library, because most of what I was doing was reading primary sources, and those were the books you bought each year. So, you know, if I was not reading commentaries on Leibniz, I was reading Leibniz, I was not reading commentaries on Plato. I was reading Plato. So-so again, was not that grad school level?
IG: 1:24:59
Did not the library have these books, these primary materials?
DM: 1:25:03
It did as far as I can recall, I never remember anybody complaining that there was something that they could not get. But I did not have call to-to use it that much.
JM: 1:25:15
Did you bought them all, right?
DM: 1:25:17
Yeah. And back then, books were, books were reasonable. I mean, you know the book-book industry-
IG: 1:25:24
How do you how do you think that your classmates from Harpur would remember you?
Speaker 1 1:25:29
The only ones who remember me are the ones who still know me. [laughs]
IG: 1:25:35
How did they talk about you from this period? How do you think that they would remember you?
DM: 1:25:40
Oh, I do not know. I think we all laugh and joke. We were just this last get together, New Year's from an earlier get together when Mark Weinstein was not able to make it, somebody had picked up a badge with his picture from back then on it. And I think the running joke was, well, at least he improved with age. But it was, I do not know. I think that we all pretty much had. I think we are the same people now that we were then, even though Mark Wolraich has had a tremendously important career as a pediatrician, he has, he has written a number of books on dealing with children with special needs. He coordinates a program in right now, out of the University of Oklahoma, that works through the state to coordinate all the services in the state for students with special needs that he organized and put together, but we still rib him the same way we did across the campus, one family across the campus and but it is that it said we establish, yeah, we established an easy kind of relationship of people who are serious when we need to be serious and able to laugh. And I think we, you know, our individual personalities are just developments of what they-they were then. So it is not as so much of thinking how people would remember me, so much as thinking about how glad I am that all those so many of those good relationships I had, them are still a part of my life. Now.
IG: 1:27:48
What lessons did you learn from this important period in your life?
DM: 1:27:54
I do not know. I think, I think we have kind of-
IG: 1:27:56
Covered a lot.
DM: 1:27:57
Covered that, yeah-yeah, in general-
IG: 1:27:59
But just-
DM: 1:28:01
Yeah, no, I think that, as I have said, there was the-the beliefs and-and beliefs I have had about what is most important in life are things that simply developed through the associations there that I was fortunate enough to have good friends. You know, continuation of these, of these good friendships. And so I think that, I think that the- we were open minded to a diverse world. I think that meeting other people who were like that has just established a sort of-of a way of life in which you are critical about things that you think are wrong, but you are open to-to a diverse world of people who-who managed to get to those same places in life by a lot of different routes. And I think that-that started a little bit in in high school, really expanded in college.
JM: 1:29:35
I remember, you know, sitting around talking to people about some serious things.
DM: 1:29:42
Yeah-yeah.
JM: 1:29:42
And, you know, and I think that is came out of that era, um-
DM: 1:29:50
Yeah-yeah, no-no topics, no topics seem to be out of bounds. And the discussions that we would have were-were very serious. Whether they are about religion or about politics or about social conditions, or-
IG: 1:30:06
Were they ever about the social conditions of women, women's rights?
DM: 1:30:10
I think those developed as we went. I think that every woman I still know who is someone I knew back then I would describe as a feminist and-and I had, I had a student, Janet, and I shared a student, you know, went from my class in philosophy to her class in English, came in one day and said, "Dr Muir just yelled at us for not being feminist." And I had not really yelled at him for not being feminist. What I just simply asked him, "How many of you would-would be [inaudible]", this is in the (19)90s. "How many of you would-would say you were feminists?" And very few would raise their hands and I say, Well, you know. And then I would start to explain what feminism, you know, what the early feminism movement meant, and what people would try say and-and talk about, you expect that you can go out for any sport in high school? Of course, you can back then you could not, right? There were not any right. And just try to let them, let them know. I said, yeah, what I said, somehow people who are against feminism have made it a nasty word for young women. I do not understand that. I said, "How can it be a nasty word? Are you against equal pay for equal work? Are you against equal opportunity for in in every profession? Are you?" So-so that was yelling at them, asking, ask him, asking him a series of questions. "Dr. Muir was yelling." But anyway, she was one of the ones I got to, I think it was not yeah, but yeah, it was something that built. It built, I think, you know, it started to build in those years, and it just, you know, it just can continue to build from-from then on.
JM: 1:31:59
In short of time, was, I was at Harpur when I decided, you know, to start going back to school and taking classes. I took music appreciation because at Harpur, I had been in a music appreciation class, and it introduced me to opera. I loved Aida, Leontyne Price, and all this music that, you know, I never was exposed to in my family. They were doing Lawrence Welk and stuff like that. But that was what I went back to. And the first literature classes I took was literature by and about women, you know, in the feminist mold and-and I got to teach, and I think it was the last semester I taught her. Last year I taught at OCC. I got to teach a course in literature by and about women. But those things, I came from a family of five girls, and my parents were out of the depression area- era, and they both were interested in going to college, but could not, because they both had to work. And my mother graduated from high school at the age of 16, and, you know, was very much interested in going on to school, and my father wanted to be an architect, so they were determined that all of their daughters would go to college, so there was not a question in my family about trying to go to college. My older sister went to a business school and then dropped out. She was not terribly interested. I went to college and dropped out after a year, which was, I think, a big disappointment to them, but then my next sister, my next sister, my next sister, all three of them went to college, went into nursing, occupational therapy and-and all of that. So growing up in a family of girls, I did not really recognize the lack of opportunity, although when I think back now, there were not any sports for us. And I might have been interested in sports. I now play tennis. I have been playing tennis for 40 years and-and enjoying it, and but there were not those things. So, you know, the feminism, they- was a big thing for me, and I think it started in those years, but I did not capitalize on it until- I did not capitalize, [crosstalk] I went back to college in the (19)70s.
IG: 1:34:30
And-and your husband supported you?
JM: 1:34:32
Absolutely. And you know, through grad school, there were a lot of couples that Syracuse that broke up because the wives were working and the husbands were in grad school, and they just went different ways. But when David finished his degree, his PhD, that is when I was pregnant with our daughter, and I-I wanted to go back to school. And he said all. Take care of the baby.
IG: 1:35:03
How progressive of you.
Speaker 1 1:35:05
Well, I still cook all our meals. After [crosstalk] Yeah-yeah-yeah. Because we were, we were married for seven years before he had a child, and then, and then, just as she decided she wanted to go back to-to school, all of a sudden, we found she was pregnant, and-and, but then, yeah, I said, I can I have a flexible- I can manage my schedule, and we can do this and-and-and we did, and made sure that she was able to go back to school.
IG: 1:35:38
Well, what concluding remarks do you have? What message would you like to convey to future generations, or this generation listening to your interview?
DM: 1:35:57
It is tough, because we came through a golden era that I do not know is going to be repeatable, because with what was happening in the (19)50s, the Cold War, and then Soviets launching Sputnik, and all of a Sudden, huge amounts of money being poured into education, and you combine that with the post war economy, where-where you just had the fastest growing middle class that I think there is ever been, and all of those things coming together for us at just that time, New York State converting their-their colleges into from State Teachers colleges into liberal arts colleges, forming university centers. I mean, Harpur was the first one, but Stony Brook had already begun by the time, you know what, By the second year in or sooner than that, Stony Brook was beginning, and then Albany, and then they purchased [inaudible]. So all of these things are happening at once. We are and I do not see those factors coming together again. We had not to have taken advantage of that would have been a real shame. Everything was there for us. Everything was there for us. But I guess the message would be, look to try to recreate those opportunities wherever you can. It is you- you are not likely to have the same set of circumstances, but we do not want to restrict. We want to-to open up. And I see too many things that are tending toward restricting, again, limiting again. Too many people who are afraid of diversity, afraid of various other things. This was as great a period, I think, as you could live through, and whatever anybody can do to recreate those open conditions, I think that is what they should be trying to do.
IG: 1:38:17
Thank you very much. Would you like to add your concluding remarks to this interview?
JM: 1:38:27
We have had a really charmed life and-and the fact that our daughter has picked up on a lot of the values that you know, we experience with our friends. We are very proud of her, and that when she wanted to go to college, she looked at Geneseo and she looked at Binghamton. She did not want to go too far, and luckily for us, she did not want to spend a lot of money. [laughter] But when she looked at Geneseo, she said “It is a lot of the same people.” She went to Marcellus High School, which is very small and rural. She said “It is a lot of the same people,” you know, a monoculture of middle class white upstate. And she said, I want to go to Binghamton because of the diversity and-and it was hard for her to go into that big school from here, but she was in Hinman, she was in a suite with, you know, that gave her a smaller cohort of-of students to be with, and she made wonderful friendships, and she had a wonderful experience at Binghamton. So even though it is bigger, she still had a core experience there that was very positive for her. So you know, it is still a great place to go. Yeah, I would say, even though my experience was not a positive one there, I have seen that it was-
DM: 1:40:12
There was one thing that I did not that I did not say that-that to me, characterized the- an attitude that is no longer there, because Binghamton went division one sports and-and my understanding was that the President wanted to do it, and the faculty was against it, and as I was against it, in fact, I talked to people who were calling on fundraising drives, and I saying, oh, the most thing I am most disappointed in it was going Division One, because division one and what happened? It was a scandal. Why? Because you cannot build a division one program. Why would you go to a demanding school like Harpur instead of Cornell, right, which is still right, still, it is Ivy League. It still has the name. Why go there right when neither one is going to be able to offer you scholarship, and Cornell has been added a law a lot longer, and they know how to they know how to work the system. And I did not think they could write and what did they have? They had a scandal when we were there. It was Division three. I ran Division Three track until I got married [laughter] and-and it was fun, right. We, we played games on the on the small- it was a van we would go in, right? The coach would drive us in a van. Coach Lyons would drive us in a van, and the basketball team, right.
JM: 1:41:41
Harass them. [inaudible]
DM: 1:41:43
Yeah, that was, that was, that was that was the cheer we would go down there, "Harass them, harangue them, make them really relinquish the ball." I mean, that was, you know, that was the kind of fun sort of thing that you did. And it was, but it was very different. And because it you-you did not go there for athletics. The athletics were there because they were part of a traditional education. And the people in the in the phys ed department were wonderful instructors. Were great down there when we when we started the- but it was an academic institution, thoroughly and division one schools are not, first of all, academic institutions. If you are a division one, of course, they are never going to go football, thank goodness. But I have a loyalty to SU [Syracuse University] big on Division One, everything, but I really liked Harpur as a division three school. I wish it could have stayed a division three school. I think. I wish they were still chanting, [Harass them, harangue there. Make them. Make them relinquish the ball] at basketball games.
IG: 1:42:53
Because that would have kept the emphasis on academics.
DM: 1:42:56
Yes, yeah, because then-then-
JM: 1:42:58
And sports are for enjoyment.
DM: 1:43:00
Sports, yeah, they are, they are, yeah, they are for enjoyment. And you do that, right. You run track because you want to run track. You go out, you know you are out for the basketball team because you want to play basketball. But-but that, to me, was-was what Harpur College was, and I wish it was, was now what Binghamton University is, but it is not. It is not. And that that, to me, is a shame. I think that that is something lost that will never be regained. And I think it is a real shame that, but it is a totally different campus. I mean, you got a school, and you got all these different schools that it was, but still-still, I would love to have seen them have the courage to be a university center and a division and do division three sports. That would have been great, that it would have taken courage, but it would have put them on the map. And I think the best, best way.
JM: 1:44:04
I do not know if they have sports for women down there. I really do not have a clue about that, but they did not when we were there.
DM: 1:44:09
But they-they-they, they must not.
Third speaker: 1:44:11
They have tennis.
DM: 1:44:11
Do they have a women's basketball program?
Third speaker 1:44:13
Yeah? They do. They have lacrosse-
DM: 1:44:20
Yeah-yeah, all the same things, yeah, I will say yeah. But that is-
JM: 1:44:28
Now.
Third speaker 1:44:28
[crosstalk] tracks obviously.
DM: 1:44:30
Yeah-yeah, but-but that-that-that to me, was something that I would have liked to have seen them keep, and it would have been a uniqueness that I think would have-have been a good. So, yep.
IG: 1:44:47
Thank you so much. Thank you for a very interesting-
DM: 1:44:50
Thank-thank you for having the interest in doing it.
JM: 1:44:55
What-what is this going to be used for?
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with David and Janet Muir
Subject
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Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut
Contributor
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Muir, David ; Muir, Janet ; Gashurov, Irene
Format
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audio/mp3
Description
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David is a retired philosophy professor who taught philosophy at Onondaga Community College. He owes a debt to Harpur College, which spurred his lifelong interest in philosophy. He met his wife, Janet, there. He earned his degree in philosophy from Syracuse University.
Janet met her spouse, David Muir, at Harpur; she did not finish her degree at Harpur College since she supported her husband through his PhD program at Syracuse University. She earned her degree at Syracuse subsequently and worked as an adjunct instructor in English at Onondaga Community. Looking back, Janet says they've led a "charmed life."
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2018-01-12
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
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David and Janet Muir.mp3
Date Modified
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2018-01-12
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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105:00 minutes