2 10 47 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dbf2e865feea9a53e4533e1e76b8a2df.mp3 9b58b180ce188e9a2cef716c2e27b5f4 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/13e555b69140227a5096bc283597fe90.jpg 8cd344de010f4e24192673eb7e9424b9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David S. Hammer Year of Graduation 1968 Biographical Text David has worked as a trial lawyer for more than 30 years and was engaged in civil and criminal litigation. He served in the U.S. Justice Department in the Antitrust Division and as an Assistant United States Attorney in Miami and in Manhattan. For the last two decades he has worked in private practice in New York. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: David S. Hammer Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 23 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Doing. DH: 00:01 My name is David Hammer like a sledgehammer, and I am 70, and we are going to be engaged in an interview about Binghamton in the (19)60s, as I understand it, Harpur as I knew it then. We are at my law offices at 505 5th Avenue in the law firm Lankler, Siffert and Wohl. IG: 00:17 And where are we? IG: 00:29 Okay, so um, just let us start at the beginning. Where did you grow up? DH: 00:36 I grew up between, I mean, half the time in Manhattan, half the time in the Bronx. IG: 00:41 Oh-oh. DH: 00:43 I was born in Manhattan. We moved to the Bronx. We moved back to Manhattan, we moved back to the Bronx. IG: 00:49 What did your parents do? DH: 00:51 They were both court reporters. They both were- my father--I forget it took it as a, as-as an achievement of distinction, was one of the earliest users of the stenotype, and my mother, was a little bit younger, learned the stenotype, and they both worked in the New York court system. So, my father was assigned to the Bronx Supreme Court and the Manhattan Supreme Court. We moved back and forth. IG: 01:20 And tell me a little bit about your parents where you know, did they grow up in the United States? DH: 01:28 Right. My parents both were born in the United States. My mother was born on the Lower East Side. My father was born in what is in Harlem, actually near Burt Lancaster and both of them were born before the First World War. Their parents were immigrants from Eastern Europe. IG: 01:56 Um, so their parents came. I am just curious, because I- DH: 02:02 Pretty much between all four grandparents came in the 15 years between 1885 and 1900. IG: 02:11 I see, I see, okay. Um, all right, so did your parents went to college? DH: 02:19 My father went to college. My mother did not. IG: 02:23 But there was an expectation that you would go on. DH: 02:26 Yes. IG: 02:26 You- that you would go to college. Did you have any siblings? DH: 02:30 I have a sister. She also went to college. IG: 02:32 Okay, so education, I assume, was valued in your family. DH: 02:37 Yes, and then, I mean, all of my friends in the- I mean, I went to Stuyvesant, and I think we had like, a 95 percent college rate, so it was just assumed that I would go to college. IG: 02:53 So, what were your reasons for going to Harpur? DH: 02:57 To be candid, I did not get into Yale, um, and Harpur was a good, a good school, from my father's point of view. It was also the attraction of being an inexpensive school in those days. I forget what it cost, but it was nothing. And if you had-- the state gave out Regent Scholarships and stuff, and it really was, maybe it was $2,500 a year or something like that. IG: 03:24 And did you get a Regent Scholarship? DH: 03:27 I did, and there were various other forms of financial aid, and you could get a job as a messenger and some something, so that it was really no burden, either the students or the students’ parents. IG: 03:39 Had you ever gone upstate before coming to Binghamton? DH: 03:43 I had never gone to Binghamton before, but yeah, no, we would be in upstate. I mean, we had been, we have been to Niagara Falls and places like that. Binghamton—I-I think I had heard of Binghamton because Rod Serling, whose TV show I think I watched. I think Rod Serling that lived in Binghamton for a while. IG: 04:01 Yeah, I know that, and I do not know that he graduated, but he did live there. that is true, I remember that. So, what did- what was your reputation of Harpur College back then? DH: 04:16 I do not know what his general reputation was, but the reputation--I had a very good friend whose brother went to Harpur and who spoke very well of it, and it was thought of as being a better school than city. I mean, if you were going to go to a school that was not expensive, it was thought of as being a better place to go than city, and it had a good reputation. I mean, it was very small back then. I started in the summer, and there were, like 1200 I think there were 1200 students in the summer of (19)64. IG: 04:51 Summer of (19)64. DH: 04:51 Right. You know, those members of my family who were very big on credentials kind of denigrated the school. School, because it was not Princeton. IG: 05:01 Right. DH: 05:02 But then I did not get into Princeton, so, you know, I mean, it was, it was a good school, and I was happy to go there. IG: 05:08 Yeah. So, did you visit the school before coming there in the summer? DH: 05:12 No, I did not, I did not. IG: 05:12 This was- DH: 05:14 Yeah. IG: 05:14 You know, you saw for the first time as you- DH: 05:17 Right. IG: 05:18 -entered the program. So, what were your first impressions? I mean, it was pretty rural. DH: 05:24 Well, my first impression was a little bit distressed by the sort of dreary brick buildings, which reminded me of the projects in New York. They seemed to be the sort of New York State institutional style of building, but the area around it, the school was beautiful. And in those days, Binghamton was not an unsophisticated place. I mean, it had IBM, it had Ansco, it had quite a few industries with highly educated, you know, engineers and stuff, places that I think have now closed down and moved away. So, I mean, it was mixed. I was a little lonely for being away from home. On the other hand, a little excited about being away from home. And I really was taken with how beautifully the surrounding countryside was that was before I realized that it rained 90 percent of the time. IG: 06:26 Because you came there in the most beautiful season- DH: 06:29 Exactly. IG: 06:29 -in Binghamton. And so, the school had changed to a trimester system- DH: 06:35 Right. IG: 06:36 -by the time that you arrived. DH: 06:37 Right. And in the summer, I mean, that I started, nobody took school particularly seriously, and it was like being in a kind of quasi summer camp with an academic patina to it. I mean, maybe like going to music camp for kids to do that. It was a great--I had a wonderful time that first summer, and then in September or October, whenever the second trimester began, then school began to get more serious. IG: 07:05 Did you have an idea of what you wanted to study, what you wanted to get from Harpur College? DH: 07:12 I cannot say that I did. I mean, being a lawyer was always- because both of my parents were connected with the court system. Being a lawyer was always sort of in the background, but I wrote for the school paper, and I went to Columbia, the school of journalism, and for a while I thought of being a journalist, so I was not really set on any particular profession. And um- IG: 07:36 Did you go to the school of journalism right after graduating? DH: 07:39 I did. I did, and I found that I had no particular talent for sciences. So, I mean, I flunked chemistry, I remember, and so, yeah, I just took literature and history courses and made some friends among the faculty. IG: 07:55 Tell me what- we will stay on this topic a little bit. So, tell me a little bit about the school newspaper, because none of my interviewees have spoken about that yet. DH: 08:09 Well, the school newspaper was actually a fairly good paper, which came out, as I recall, twice a week. It was then called the Colonial News because, for reasons that I do not recall--Binghamton, the school were the colonials. That was its nickname. It later became the Pipe Dream. If that is still the name, IG: 08:28 Yes, there is still the Pipe Dream. DH: 08:31 And, you know, it was not a lot of news on the campus those days, so that most of the stuff was, you know, articles, kids got everybody wanted to be a reviewer of the drama. Tony Kornheiser was the editor of the sports section. I was the feature news editor. And it was interesting. I mean, you got to write a lot. And in fact, since there was not a lot of other stuff to read on campus, I mean, if you wrote for the newspaper, good portion of the school read it. IG: 09:10 So, what kind of things did you write about? IG: 09:11 At Stuyvesant? DH: 09:11 I started off reviewing plays I had been in my senior year play it in high school. So, I thought for a while- DH: 09:13 At Stuyvesant. I thought for a while maybe I would be involved in drama at Harpur, and I was not a good actor, but I started reviewing plays. And then I- when I became Features Editor, I wrote about everything. I mean, I wrote about- we did reviews of the various departments, something that was really- we were not qualified to and we just tried to fill space. I mean, it is not easy to fill two pages of feature stuff in a school of that size twice a week. IG: 09:54 No, I can appreciate that. I worked as a reporter. IG: 09:59 Um, so, um- DH: 09:59 Oh. DH: 10:03 The thing about the school in those days was it was small enough so that if you really wanted to, you could participate in almost anything, something that would be a lot harder in a large school. I mean, you could be in plays, even if you were not particularly talented. You could write for the paper. There was a literary magazine you could write for that. IG: 10:21 I did not know. I did not know that there was a literary magazine. DH: 10:24 Well, Milt Kessler [Milton Kessler], who was the poet, the school poet. Then, as I recall, was the faculty advisor. And no, so it was a good experience. I mean, you could really get a taste of a lot of different things, activities. IG: 10:34 And the- there was a good theater program, because there is still a very good theater program. DH: 10:48 Well, it was not good in the sense of turning out professional DH: 10:54 productions, but it was good in the sense of being ambitious, of being of having a kind of educational rather than theatrical aim, I mean it, it selected plays of the past- Shakespeare was never put on, which I think was a mistake, but plays by lesser playwrights that well, there was an Ibsen [Henrik Ibsen] play, Rosmersholm- Rosmersholm that was put on was a bit of a disaster. There were plays by Brecht. I mean, there were serious plays that one would not see in New York that the department put on. And there were usually large productions in which everybody who wanted to participate could participate, and then that was supplemented by a one act program in which theater majors directed a play, so that it was like off Broadway, more of on guard stuff was put on, in addition to the stuff chosen by the department itself. IG: 12:00 Do you remember any of the pieces that- DH: 12:02 There was a- I remember, and I- what is his name, Synge, S, Y, N, G, E, an Irish playwright--there was, I forget the name of the play that was put on. I was, I was in that, and cannot remember many others, but, you know, in some ways they were more fun because the directors were students, little bit older than yourself. IG: 12:28 Right. DH: 12:28 And they spent a lot of time and a lot of passion in-in doing it. Oh, yeah, no, there was also a play the End Game we put on. I had a part in that. So, yeah, I mean, my goodness. I mean, I really do not have acting talent, but I managed to- IG: 12:47 It is so wonderful to have that experience. DH: 12:50 Yeah. I mean, I had an opportunity to participate in stuff that I would never have had if I had been on a major campus. IG: 12:52 Right-right. Do you think that any of the plays that were staged were, in some kind of weigh a commentary on the times, because this- DH: 13:04 I do not know, pony, it is hard to- IG: 13:06 No. DH: 13:07 It is hard. I mean, it is hard to see an immediate connection. They did not, I mean, I am not really sure they did put on- I mean, they did put on, you know, Arturo, we and I, and I and I suppose I think that was actually a student production, and I think that the person who put it on probably had some connection in his mind between that and Lyndon Johnson, but it was not an immediate connection. IG: 13:36 Right. Yeah, okay, and about your newspaper, so did you what-what were some of the, I mean, the Vietnam for force was on everyone's mind. DH: 13:46 And there was a, there was a Marxist professor, not, it was not a professor. It was a Marxist scholar. Isaac Deutscher was a very famous scholar. And- IG: 13:56 I know the name. DH: 13:57 Yeah, was a wonderful man--had been unable to get a permanent position in England, because it now turns out, he was blacklisted by Isaiah Berlin. And he came to- IG: 14:11 He was blacklisted by Isaiah I cannot believe it. DH: 14:14 Yeah, well, it has come out that Isaiah Berlin had some animus towards him, and there was job opening, I think, at University of Sheffield. [IG speaks in the background ,inaudible] Yeah. Well, he was a wonderful man. He was one of the most charming, sophisticated men I have ever met. IG: 14:14 You met him? DH: 14:16 Oh, I spent a lot of time with him. Yeah. IG: 14:28 How did you spend a lot of time- DH: 14:39 Well, he was, he was, he was, he was on the campus full time as a visiting scholar. In fact, he was hoping to get an appointment on the faculty- IG: 14:49 Right. DH: 14:50 -which did not happen. In any event, he died a year or two thereafter, but, um, you know, we had read the Prophet Unarmed [The Prophet Unarmed: Trotsky, 1921–1929]. We have read one of in a history class. We had read one of the three, one of the trilogy that he had written about Trotsky, and he was very well known. IG: 15:09 Right. DH: 15:10 And I met him at, I do not know, various faculty dinners that I was invited to, and I organized a debate between Deutscher and several of the professors at Harpur. IG: 15:25 Where was this? DH: 15:26 This was at Harpur. IG: 15:28 This was at Harpur! DH: 15:29 We had. It was on the radio. Yeah. IG: 15:31 That is tremendous. DH: 15:32 Yeah. He was, he was so [inaudible]. I had very primitive notions about what a Marxist scholar would believe that I thought he would believe in, you know, the inevitability of Marxism and-and that he would believe that art should be used only for the purposes of revolutionary change. And this guy was so sophisticated that I began to blush- IG: 15:57 Right. DH: 15:57 -as I would raise my objections to him. I mean, it was, he was a remarkable man. And, you know, Rebecca Grajower, I do not know if her name ever came out. There was a lady professor of political science who fell in love with Deutsche and posted a lot of different things in which students can meet with him. And I went over to he had a very modest little apartment in one of the dorms that he was given there. IG: 16:29 That blows me away. [crosstalk] I have never respected that people of that stature would be at Harpur College. DH: 16:35 Well, he was, of course, an unusual situation, because he had been unable to get jobs- IG: 16:40 Right-right. DH: 16:40 -in England, and I guess, probably in those days, a job at a state school New York probably would pay fairly well. A guy named Blair Ewing made it impossible for him to get the job at Harpur, he wrote this denunciation of Deutscher as a Marxist, that kind of turned the tide. Yeah, it is funny. It is unfortunate. Mel Shefftz [Melvin Shefftz, History Department] you never came into touch with, did you? IG: 17:08 No. DH: 17:09 He was a professor at Harpur, uh, died in 2011 who was very much touched by Deutscher--really thought highly of them. And, you know, if you were interested in Deutscher tenure at Harpur, could have told you a lot about him. I just thought he was really he had a first-rate mind. I mean, it is clearly a level above most of the professors we had. We had able professors, but Deutscher was on a level above them. IG: 17:37 I mean, yeah, this is, I even I heard of him, you know, without any Binghamton before Binghamton and I certainly have read Isaiah Berlin's essays on Russian culture, Russian literature, the Hedgehog on the Fox. And I read his I read the biography of him by- DH: 17:59 by Michael Ignatieff [crosstalk] IG: 17:59 [inaudible] Ignatieff and he is now a politician in Canada. DH: 17:59 Well, I think that biography actually talks about-about the episode with Berlin and Deutscher. DH: 18:12 So anyway, that was one of the- IG: 18:15 Tell me. Told me about these meetings with Professor Deutscher outside of the classroom. You said that there were faculty dinners that uh- DH: 18:27 I do not know if they were formal faculty dinners. There were a group of- there were an awful lot of old-line Marxists on the Harpur faculty, but a very different type than I gather exists today. These were people who were scholars, who were, you know, they-they were, they were, they were not people necessarily, who came out of any movement, but they were people who were persuaded that the Marxist analysis was correct. And all of a sudden, one of the leading Marxist intellectuals appears on campus, and in that little world, he was a rock star. So, there were a constant set of dinners and lunches and-and lectures. I mean, he gave a like a seven- or eight-part series of lecture on Marx's theory that were packed, and we had a couple of East European emigres who gave them very spirited objections. And it was intellectually very exciting. I mean, you got a sense of what a genuine first-rate mind was like. IG: 19:39 Well, because they were, you know, they were- their agenda, their intellectual, you know, their philosophy was really informed by lived experience. DH: 19:51 Yeah. IG: 19:51 You know, they lived through the wars, they lived through Marxism. You know, they lived so it was, it was- DH: 19:58 But he was also a man of very deep European culture. IG: 20:01 Yeah. DH: 20:02 Um, and yeah. So. IG: 20:05 So, how was it? How was it to mix with these towering intellects? DH: 20:11 Well, he was very different than-than the normal professor [inaudible] that-that Harpur. I mean, to meet Deutscher would was to be inspired. I mean, even today, at the age of 70, if I had to think of the half dozen most impressive and admirable people that I have met, I mean, I would, I would list him as one. IG: 20:35 Yeah. DH: 20:37 He was- he had a kind of charm, which was overwhelming and which was really hard to describe, because he was not a physically impressive guy. He was this little guy, about five foot three, but was- it comes out a little bit actually, in his books which have this kind of ornate quality to them. No, I love Deutscher, and a lot of other people love Deutscher, and we were all- it would have been great if he could have gotten a permanent position at Binghamton. My relationship with other faculty members was, again, I think, probably a little bit different than it would have been if I had gone to Columbia- DH: 21:19 -in the sense of, you know, these people did not commute from great different distances they lived on or near campus. So, you were able to form some close relations. And I formed a couple that continued until I was in my mid (19)60s, and they were, of course, 20 years older. I do not know if that is what goes on now. IG: 21:21 Right. IG: 21:46 That- you know, it certainly goes on you know, from my experience at the graduate level, professors and their graduate students sometimes, you know, form lifelong relationships, especially if they are proteges of these professors. But at the undergraduate level, it is different, so really unusual. DH: 22:09 It was not a great- there was not a large graduate school presence when I was in an undergrad. So anyway, what can I tell you. IG: 22:21 That is, that is really, I mean, just out of my own curiosity, how did Isaiah Berlin, I mean, he had this atrophied arm, right? DH: 22:29 I do not [inaudible] He had a limp, I thought, but he had some sort of lameness, yeah. IG: 22:33 He had polio. DH: 22:34 How did he, um blacklist- IG: 22:37 No, how did he strike you as an individual? DH: 22:39 Isaiah Berlin, I never met. IG: 22:40 Oh, you never met him. He was not- DH: 22:42 No, I am talking about Isaac Deutscher. IG: 22:43 I understand. But I thought that Isaiah Berlin came to one- DH: 22:47 No-no-no. IG: 22:48 Okay. DH: 22:49 Isaiah Berlin's connection Isaac Deutscher was simply, as I understand it. He had blacklisted him in England. IG: 22:55 I am sorry, right? I am sorry. I thought that he was, at one point, you know, friends and would come to this. I am sorry. Okay, so you said that you know you formed relationships with faculty that lasted over a lifetime. DH: 23:12 Yeah. IG: 23:13 So, who you know? DH: 23:15 Well, all right, so I do not these are names. I do not know if they are going to be familiar. One was Mel Shefftz, who was a professor of European history. Another was a guy named John Hagopian, who was this brilliant but very difficult English professor who, whenever I would meet him after school, was involved in some new affair that had just broke his heart. It DH: 23:44 was overly dramatic about it. Another one was a very odd and ultimately- IG: 23:49 And he would confide in you. DH: 23:50 Yeah, he would, I mean, I think he would confide it in everyone. He is- I want to throw myself. I remember he once said, “I want to throw myself off the Library Tower.” It was- IG: 24:01 Was he that much older than you? Or probably- DH: 24:04 [inaudible] he had been a World War two veteran. I remember him telling stories about World War Two. He was in love with a woman named Betty Aswat Aswad, who may have wound up on the faculty. I am not sure. Yeah, I do not know. There was T. Patterson Brown, who later spent several years in jail for pedophilia. Has his name come up in any of these? IG: 24:31 No. DH: 24:32 He was a charismatic philosophy professor who had been in graduate school at Oxford and was a genuinely brilliant man, but really not a good guy. He actually turned me on to marijuana the first time. He decided that he was a proselytizer for it. He thought that all kinds of- he believed, with Timothy Leary, that it was a gateway to great, new forms of perception. And then he went off and became a cult leader and. Uh, Bruce Leon Goldstein, I remember interviewed me because he was keeping a file on Brown. He wanted to get rid of him. He was the department chair of philosophy. IG: 25:12 That is, yeah, incredible. DH: 25:12 And Brown later went to jail for four or five years when I was an Assistant US Attorney, Brown saw me on TV and wanted me to somehow intervene in his case. I forget what it was exactly that he wanted, but I did a little research, and it turned out the charges were true. So, yeah, Brown was- IG: 25:13 Really colorful. DH: 25:42 Yeah, colorful group of colorful group of people. And I do not remember other--you know, the faculty at Binghamton, those youth was interesting. A lot of them were really very intelligent people, but they were often unproductive. There was always a reason why they were Binghamton rather than at some larger school, and it usually was the fact that smart as they were, they had not written very much, yeah, or they had gotten involved in some field that nobody else was interested in. I remember Robin Oggins, who, I guess, was there until recently, I am not sure- IG: 26:19 And who was she or he? DH: 26:21 Was he. He did his dissertation on falconry, and there was not really a big market for that. IG: 26:29 Yeah, and yet, you know, places like Columbia had many of these people with very niche interests, and they so but that is really interesting. You are the first person to talk about these people. So, you know you meant you talked about how these faculty members made an impression on you, but did the just the closeness of being around these intellects, these academics did that, but did that give you, you know- DH: 27:14 I cannot say that, you know- IG: 27:16 -confidence did that, you know. DH: 27:18 I mean, well, the fact that they treated me as a kind of equal. Even though younger person, and gave me confidence. I had far more confidence that I should have had in those days in any event. IG: 27:30 Why do you say that? DH: 27:31 Well, I mean, because I was like the typical jerk, you know, spouting off in class about stuff that I know nothing about, giving my theory of the universe. IG: 27:41 Well, like what, you know [inaudible] DH: 27:42 I remember we were talking about Brecht and alienation, and it triggered this thing that I started talking about alienation in general, which of course, was not what Brecht meant by alienation at all. And it was only later, when I actually read the assignment that I should have read beforehand, that I realized beforehand, that I realized what a fool I had made of myself. So, I mean, I do not know. And then when I went to law school, University of Chicago, then I met some really serious intellectuals, in a way that my professors at Binghamton were not. I mean, they may have been as intelligent, but they were not as ambitious. They were not as consumed by, you know, the field that they were teaching. IG: 28:29 Right-right. But in some way, it is kind of a softer introduction to this world. DH: 28:36 I am not unhappy about going to [inaudible] I am in Binghamton. I had a lot of fun. IG: 28:39 And, you know, so-so was there any, were you involved in any kind of student activism? DH: 28:48 No, you know, it is funny that you should- the activism at Harpur in those days was almost all about the war. There was almost, I do not remember any civil rights activism. There was a group that I belonged to that we had a Saturday morning program for inner city the extent that there were inner city kids in those days at-at, in Binghamton. And, you know, everyone in his heart supported it, but the real demonstrations and the rallies and the trips to Washington were about the war. There were not many black students in Binghamton in those years. I mean, I only remember a handful, and a couple of those were foreign students. Yeah, and the woman's movement did not really become big until after I left. I mean, maybe in 1968 when I graduated, it was beginning to percolate up upward. But it was, it was the war that 90 percent I mean, the free I remember in (19)64 when I first started, when the free speech movement in Berkeley started, there was a rally that was in sympathy to the free speech movement. And there was some, I mean, I remember there were restrictions on women in the dorms how late they could stay out. And that caused, yeah, and I remember Bruce Dearing, the president, trying to come up with some justification for this, obviously not believing in it himself and but there was, it was, there was the stuff that concerns campuses today was not present on-on Binghamton campus in those days on the Harford campus. It was the war that consumed everyone. And I met my first- I mean, I-I met in my first year, I met two guys lived in my dorm who were returning GIs, who had been in Vietnam. IG: 28:53 Did they talk about the war? DH: 30:03 They did mostly the difference because I was 16 when I started this difference between a 16-year-old and [crosstalk] IG: 31:18 It is huge. DH: 31:19 Yeah, especially at 20. Well, I was just about to turn 17, so I- but and a 20-year-old, or a 21-year-old who had been to Vietnam was really just a different category entirely. So, I was just mostly impressed by these guys. They seemed, you know, really grown-up people. And I remember gradually how the Vietnam thing began to progress and how students began to get angrier and angrier. In the very beginning, all of the petitions and all the speeches were how this is inconsistent with American tradition. And as time went on, it was, you know, American imperialism and stuff like that. And then I came, when I went into the army myself, and when I got out of the army, I came back to Binghamton for a year. And I mean, at that point the- IG: 32:12 Tell us about that. I mean, you went to the army. DH: 32:15 I was drafted. I went to this Columbia School of Journalism. I was drafted into the army. I spent two years in Germany. I got out. I had not any particular plans. I had an idea of going to law school, but there was a period of a year before I could get into law school, and I decided, well, I will go back for masters at Binghamton. And I went back and they would and this was three or four years after I graduated, and the school had been transformed, there was a much bigger graduate presence. IG: 32:45 So what year was this? DH: 32:47 This was (19)70 the (19)71 to (19)72 and the there was some violence. There was a larger black presence. There were some demonstrations the basketball team boycotted, asking that the coach be removed. It was just a different place. I mean, it was a different campus, and the Vietnam War had really become the focus of a tremendous amount of student activities. I remember Senator Goodell [Charles E. Goodell] --was that his name spoke on the campus. He had said, you have to get out, and we ought to get out in 90 days. And he was picketed by the Spartacus League, because why should they wait 90 days? [laughter] That is really what they said. Yeah, but it was just a very big change in that short period of time. And then, and of course, then the women's movement had begun to really take hold in the minds of a lot of women. So. IG: 33:54 So, tell us about your career. I am not speaking in the royal way. I say us, because people will be listening to us. So, what, tell us about your career, you went to Columbia Journalism School, then you went to the army. Did you have any was there any idea of making a career in journalism at some point? DH: 34:22 There was, but after a year in journalism school, I felt this is not for me. IG: 34:24 Why not? DH: 34:32 I just felt what I wanted to do was feature writing, and what basically exploded was the new journalism as a form, I mean, the Mailer books, the Armies of the Night- IG: 34:47 Right-right. DH: 34:48 Miami, and the Siege of Chicago. And that was something that I really would like to have done, but I just felt it was emotionally overwhelming to do that sort of thing. And. Also required a tremendous amount of talent- IG: 35:04 And time. DH: 35:05 -and time, and I- you know, unless, like Mailer, you were willing to take cocaine, marijuana and drink yourself after death, it was not something that I thought you could do. So, I went into the Army. I was a law clerk in the army, and the idea began to coalesce between that and the fact that I always was around the courts when I was a kid--of being a lawyer, I went out, I spent a year, I got a Master's at Binghamton in history, and then I went to law school. And after law school, I went to work for a big Wall Street firm for a couple of years, and then went to the Justice Department, where I was a federal prosecutor for 70 years, 70 years, excuse me, for seven years. Yeah, seven years would be a long time as a prosecutor. And I was, I started off in the antitrust division, and then I was assigned to Mariel, Florida. There was a big boat lift from Cuba then, and there were a lot of prosecutions, and then I came up to New York, and ever since I left the government, I have been doing defense work. I, for time, I tried a lot of murder cases. Now, at the age of 70, I spend a lot of time writing letters saying, I am shocked by what your client has done to my client, in which trigger a letter back saying, no, no, you have it backwards. It was what my client has done to their client. So, my practice is not quite as interesting as it once was, but- IG: 36:34 Maybe it is time to- DH: 36:36 Segue into something else. IG: 36:37 Yeah. Well, I mean, continue this, but you know, think, think of the new journalism feature pieces that you are planning to write. DH: 36:44 What I would like to do is, I mean, if I had $10 billion, I would divide it in half, give half of it to prison reform and half of it to saving the great apes. But not having $10 billion. IG: 37:01 You write letters. DH: 37:02 I write letters so. IG: 37:05 How do you think your classmates or your you know; professors would remember you from that time? I mean, you describe yourself a little bit- DH: 37:18 Well, you know, I think most of the except for the few classmates that I remain friends with, if any of them remembered me at all, it would be because I gave speeches at the stepping on the coat ceremony. Is that still going on? IG: 37:30 I think so. DH: 37:31 Yeah, so I do not really. I mean, I would hope that they would remember me as someone who gave amusing speeches, the people who I was close with probably remember me as someone who was smart and crazy somehow out of control, I think. IG: 37:52 How out of control? DH: 37:53 Oh, I mean, not anything that today would be considered a very big deal. But I did not go to classes. I smoked a lot of after deep [inaudible], a lot of marijuana. I mean- IG: 38:09 You still got A's. DH: 38:11 No, I got A's in some subjects, history, I did not do well in chemistry, which you actually had to learn something. I mean, and, and, I do not know. I mean, it is funny. I, there the there was only one person who went on to be a star in my year, and that is Camille Paglia. And I barely knew Camille at all. IG: 38:35 Was she in any of your classes? DH: 38:37 No. I mean, I guess we knew each other vaguely because I wrote for the paper and because Camille was the valedictorian of the class. I do not know that anybody else in our year went on to any particular degree of celebrity. I do not know when I do meet people after 30 years that I have not been in contact with the most common remark is, you know, you said to me, X, 30 years ago, but I forgive you. So, I gather that I was a pretty rude kid back then. DH: 39:14 Yeah. I mean, I hope it was something more that, you know, you illuminated Shakespeare for me, but that is not what I get. What do you see a common thread in the people that you have interviewed Is there a quality of Harpur student that is different than just the ordinary person who grew up in the (19)60s? IG: 39:14 Yeah. IG: 39:34 I think that, well, the commonalities are that they, many of them think that they received the kind of, you know, education that you would expect of a small, elite college. DH: 39:56 Yeah. IG: 39:57 So especially the early graduates thought that, you know, they had just an academically superior experience. Um, as far as their and also, you know, as a demographic, many of the many of you are from the New York City area or from Long Island. I mean, that still remains true. But people have done such interesting things. Some-some, you know, some have had just good careers. But, you know, there are a number of people who I-I spoke with somebody just a few weeks ago who was this ethics professor at Columbia Medical Center, and he has written books on AIDS and-and collaborated with the president of AmfAR, Mathilde Krim, I think, for you know, but he so he became quite prominent. I am going to be meeting with somebody who is, you know, one of the head researchers at the NIH, and I forget what area of neuroscience, but, you know, I just, I am going to be seeing for another person is the head of her own nonprofit, you know, so-so there is, you know, there is a range. DH: 41:32 Right. It is funny, you should mention demographics, because the sort of unstated, adventures of my early years at Harpur was meeting people from outside the New York City area, and I never really done that before. And I had a friend, Willie Malchek, who was a bingy, as we called them, who said the same was true in reverse, that they were a little bit afraid. They were told that all these kids from downstate coming up who are very smart and ambitious and but in fact, the differences between downstate and upstate were sufficiently small that it really did not hinder friendships. I mean, it is funny that that should have been an issue. I mean, considering the cultural clashes that I suppose exist now, yeah, no, I met people from Herkimer. I had not even known that that was a locale. IG: 42:31 I know exactly where that is Herkimer. DH: 42:33 Where is it? Is that in- IG: 42:35 By Utica, it is by Utica. So, you know. But do you think that these cultural differences were overcome in time, or your maybe not cultural differences, but your relationships were- DH: 42:50 Yeah, I do not think that they were sufficiently large to be impediments. I met believing Christians for the first time in my life, and that was interesting to me, and it kind of maybe prepared me for the army, where I actually met people who thought that unless I converted, I was going to go to hell, and were not nasty about it, but sort of anguished about it. I mean, so that was one big, one big difference in that. But I mean, as I say, there were no oh, oh. And for me, coming from an all-boys school, it took me a year or two to get my head around the fact that there were girls in class, which had not, I mean, there was only one or two women teachers at Stuyvesant, and there were no girls in the school. So, it was- IG: 43:35 That is right, it was a boy school. DH: 43:36 It was a boy’s school in those days, yeah. So that was something that was a bit of, I mean, it was, it was just interesting. I could not believe it. I was happy about it. But at the same time, it just is not this against some rule. And I do not, I have there were some women on the faculty. I took many more than in law school. We only had one woman in my law school, professor. IG: 44:10 What I am thinking because you have, you have answered many of the questions that I was going to ask. So, you know what-what do you what are the most important lessons that you learned from this period in your life? How did it open? DH: 44:34 Yeah, I think that is important lessons. I do not know. I think of them in lessons I found because I have a tendency to withdraw and isolate myself. IG: 44:44 Right. DH: 44:45 I think that the lesson is that, in fact, the opposite approach of engaging in stuff, even if you are not super talented and not going to be preeminent, is a much shorter. Way to satisfaction, fulfillment than withdrawing. You know, it is funny that is so long ago, I think of it almost like Ivanhoe. I mean, it seems it is 50 years ago. I mean, it-it has a kind of shine for me those years. I mean, not only because of my youth at the time, but because it was just so much simpler. The country was so much simpler, and, um, it was fun. I mean, we played football on the lawn, and there were tennis courts, and it was a good time to be alive and to go to school. IG: 45:40 Right. What preoccupied you during those years? Do you remember? DH: 45:46 Oh, I think the things that preoccupied, I mean, I felt that was short. I mean I remember; I mean global warming; I suppose a certain dignity being wishing that you were three inches taller does not. Um, same things that preoccupy, no, I had a tremendous crush on a girl who I now in retrospect, see was kind of bewildered and puzzled as to how to gently reject me. And Nancy Halper, who, who I have not spoken to in 50 years. I did not. I, in fact, the people that I was friendly with did not date until maybe our senior year. IG: 46:34 I think that is because of the- DH: 46:36 I think why I do not have any idea why that is, I think- IG: 46:40 Maybe it was not. I do not either. DH: 46:45 I do not think that that is, that is not, I do not think that that was typical of the entire population. It was, I suppose that I select, perhaps I selected friends- IG: 46:55 Right. DH: 46:55 -who had these qualities. I mean, I do not really know, but for some reason, the guys that I were I was friendly with, were kind of backward and in-in dating. And they certainly they were certainly not as free and as natural around women as it seems to me kids are today, nor were they as free and natural around people of different ethnicities as kids often seem to be today. I mean, there was a provincial quality. I suppose although we thought of ourselves as New York sophisticates, there was a provincial quality that we had. And then, I mean, I had various neuroses, as a lot of kids do. And I suppose my friends tended to be people who could accommodate that. Perhaps had some neurotics of their own. But in any event, we were a very backward group in terms of socially. We would just sort of go, walk around- IG: 47:53 Kind of socializing, because apparently you were quiet, you know, you were quite adept you were socializing with these intellectual professors. DH: 48:06 Right-right, okay, but it was a more of a cerebral kind of thing. IG: 48:09 Right-right. DH: 48:10 Yeah. And there was a big dorm life in those days. I do not remember. My recollection is that when, at least when we started, the dorms were single sex. And then they it was a big deal when they opened coed dorms. IG: 48:24 Right. DH: 48:25 So, there was a big dorm life in the evenings. IG: 48:29 Right. DH: 48:30 Usually, you know, amounting to jumping over chairs and stuff. IG: 48:34 Yeah, and so-so you said you smoked pot a lot, and- DH: 48:40 Only after I was turned on by Brown. IG: 48:44 So where did you smoke? In your dorm room or in-in- DH: 48:47 No, I, you know, I mean, I may be mixing up times here, when I was in the army, I certainly took a lot of- IG: 48:55 Yeah. DH: 48:55 -it was basically hash then. IG: 48:57 Yeah. DH: 48:58 In Harpur, I did not really smoke that much, but Brown turned me on. There was certain amount of it that went on in the in the in the dorms, not by any standard, a tremendous amount. But I did not drink, and there were not a lot of wild drinking parties. We did not have fraternities. We had some weird thing called social clubs. I do not know if they still have them that were just this very pale imitation of fraternities. IG: 49:29 Yeah. So, did you belong to any of the social clubs? DH: 49:33 No, and I remember a bunch of us mocking one guy who joined a group called the Odeon’s and they gave him some bizarre tasks. He had to get signatures written backwards, or I forget what it was, but no one ever took that particularly seriously. The big thing was living off campus that was considered the really- IG: 49:59 Being semi-independent DH: 50:01 Yeah, there was a sense of emancipation when we did that. Finally, you were not on for the first time in your life, you were really not being monitored closely by anybody. So, I did not. DH: 50:01 What kind of music did you listen to? DH: 50:10 You know, I was late on that. I seem to have been late in everything. I remember in 1967 learning about the band, but I was late on Dylan, who I now love, but I remember somebody finally got highway 61 and listening to it and not being able to make head or tails of it. And it was only, frankly, it was a girl that I was dating many years later who really made me realize what a genius Dylan was. And I mean, I like the blues. I like the Butterfield blues band. I do not know if you know any of these names, but I was, yeah, I was not involved in any particularly avant garde stuff we had- I remember the people who came up were fairly eclectic bunch, Lovin' Spoonful played at Harpur, Buffy Sainte-Marie and I do not remember anybody else who had a name coming up when I was there. IG: 51:17 Did you organize trips to New York City as a group? DH: 51:20 No, did I organize? I am incapable of organizing anything. Yeah. I mean, we would go to New York City- IG: 51:27 Yeah. DH: 51:27 And once went to Washington for March against the war. But that was that there was a big political thing, whether or not the student union funds could be used for political purpose. Some of the conservative students were unhappy with that. Anyway. IG: 51:50 You did not, you did not go to any of the clubs, for example, in New York City to listen to music. DH: 51:57 No, I remember when I was at Stuyvesant. I remembered the-the I was in Stuyvesant (19)61 through (19)64 and Stuyvesant was on the Lower East Side, and the sort of Dave Van Ronk folk music scene began to sort of get and I was aware of the fact that that was developing, and I was aware of the fact that there was this guy named Dylan who was on the scene. But no, I was not deeply involved in any of that, nor was I particularly nuts about the Beatles I was in. I guess, my own little world in those days. It was only later that I really began. And I never really went to clubs. I mean all that much, but I mean I later I would go to concerts. So, I went to a couple of Dylan concerts and stuff. Yeah. I mean, was music a big thing for most of the other people that you have interviewed? IG: 52:43 Some-some, just some. DH: 52:50 Did you see the Vietnam series and on PBS? IG: 52:55 I actually, I am afraid to say that I did not. I am completely aware of it. DH: 52:59 Okay, but one of the most stirring things about that series was the music that they played, which was very well chosen. And really, you realize really, first of all how much very intelligent good music was written in those days, but also music's odd power to just evoke the whole atmosphere of a period 40 years ago. If you did you meet your mother, by the way, she lives nearby. IG: 53:26 My mother? DH: 53:27 Yeah. IG: 53:27 I am staying over at my mother's house. DH: 53:31 No-no, you emailed me. You saying this will give me an opportunity to- IG: 53:35 Yes-yes, I am staying yeah-yeah. I mean she-she had she had guests. She has guests coming to her house frequently, so she could not do that to him. That is why I came now. So-so any lessons, and not any lessons, any advice that you want to impart to students, future students, listening to these tapes about you know, what they what they need to bring to their undergraduate to their college experience? DH: 54:22 Well, I guess the advice it is always giving to students, which is that you are at a unique time in your life when you have resources available to you that will not be available to you elsewhere. There will be other advantages that you will have later in life that you do not have now, and you may have greater confidences, but you will never again have the opportunity to be in theater productions, to perhaps do film work, to write for newspapers, to do a range of activities that are professionalized in the rest of life, and which you just become an onlooker. So, one piece of advice I have is make use of it, and also by making use of it, you will often discover interests that you did not know you had, talents that you did not suspect that you had. You know the idea of going off and in a solitary way knowing yourself is implausible to me, because you often only know yourself by engaging in an activity and then finding that in fact, it is an activity that you love. So, all my advice would simply be, make use of the resources that are available to you. Do not despair if you are unhappy for a period of time or do not fit in, because that is often just part of the experience of being young, and enjoy Binghamton. IG: 55:55 Happy, a happy, happiest memory of Binghamton. DH: 56:00 Happy. Happiest memory of Binghamton. This is embarrassing to say. I cannot tell you what the happiest memory. IG: 56:05 Okay. DH: 56:09 But I remember throwing got into my head. There were two things that I remember that I cannot tell you. One is I was a big fan of Mickey Mantle is a name that probably is not familiar to many people anymore, but he was going to hit his eight and I made this boast in public, I will go anywhere on earth to see his 500th home-home run. And it turns out that he hit his 499th just before there was a Yankee Road trip to Kansas City, and the baseball team of Harpur gave me the number seven uniform, and their collection was taken up, and I went to Kansas City to see Mickey hit his 500th home run. So that is one happy memory, even though, but he turned out not to hit it there, but hit it in Yankee Stadium, three blocks from where I lived. And a second happy memory is the giant seafood gala that my roommates and I threw in our senior year. And I do not know why, but it was just an ecstatically enjoyable experience getting the lobster from the seafood mark, rather brutally throwing it in the boiling water and just having friends over. And I will tell you now the happiest moment, but it is embarrassing. It was when I thought this woman, Nancy Hopper, loved me, something that I was later disabused of. But for the moment, I was very happy. All right. Well, I hope that no one hears that late. I hope that the [crosstalk] IG: 57:47 I thank you so much. It was- DH: 57:51 Very nice. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David S. Hammer Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hammer, David S. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource David has worked as a trial lawyer for more than 30 years and was engaged in civil and criminal litigation. He served in the U.S. Justice Department in the Antitrust Division and as an Assistant United States Attorney in Miami and in Manhattan. For the last two decades he has worked in private practice in New York. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context David Hammer.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-02-23 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 57:52 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d471ac9accda23d15b3696aa2683faf8.mp3 25e1c9da6dd44ef15384d4c1ed28dff5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d3ccc19f30787e329d91817cf322b2ab.jpg f7fe4994c9e9d607c621b422465bc181 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Deborah Volkell Weinstein Year of Graduation 1969 Biographical Text Deborah Weinstein is the executive director of the Coalition on Human Needs, an alliance of national organizations working together to promote public policies for low income women and children. Deborah has covered politics, crime, and healthcare policies for various news outlets including <em>Medical Marketing &amp; Media</em>, where she specializes in Obesity, Alzheimer’s disease and healthcare costs. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Deborah Wolkell Weinstein Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 16 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Okay, so we begin by introducing ourselves and tell us who you are, where we are. So state who you are, where we are, what we are doing, DW: 00:25 Okay. My name is Deborah Weinstein, or Debbie Weinstein, and we are in the Capitol Hilton in Washington, DC, and we are about to do an oral history interview. IG: 00:40 Okay, so Debbie, tell us the years that you attended Harpur, how old you are, and maybe we can start. Where did you grow up? DW: 00:53 Okay, I am 69 years old. I attended Harpur from (19)66 to (19)69. I grew up in New York City, mostly Brooklyn, and then Manhattan. IG: 01:09 So, um, where- so where in Brooklyn, did you grow? DW: 01:17 Most of the years on Ocean Parkway. IG: 01:20 Oh, I know exactly. DW: 01:21 Um, couple of succeeding years before I went off to school in a part of Brooklyn called Mill Basin, but most of the years in on Ocean Parkway. IG: 01:37 And then in Manhattan, where did you- DW: 01:40 Well, my parents moved to kind of the outskirts of Greenwich Village, part of Greenwich Village, and I was already at school, but, of course, came home to visit. IG: 01:53 Okay. And so what we did not mention before is, what is your present role? DW: 02:01 Okay, I am the executive director of a group called the Coalition on Human Needs, which is a group of national organizations that are committed to making improvements or defending programs for low income and vulnerable people. IG: 02:25 So thank you. So when you were growing up, what were the expectations of from your family, of going onto your higher education? Who were your parents and what did they do? DW: 02:42 My parents, Shirley and Joe Volkell, were not college graduates themselves. There were other college graduates, aunts and uncles, but they did not go to college. But certainly the expectation was pretty clear, as early as I can remember, that I would go on to higher education. They did not know much about it themselves, so they could not, you know, offer guidance about where I should go, but that I should go was clear. IG: 03:19 Right-right. So-so you know, why-why did you how-how did you happen to-to select Harpur College rather than did you apply to other schools? DW: 03:31 I did. And as I say, somewhat ignorantly, I did not have any clear sense of where I should go, and I went to a large high school in Brooklyn where you were only allowed to apply to three places, and because they did not have the staff to support more transcripts or whatever. But so my family did not have a lot of money, and so we knew that one school needed to be a state school, and and my grades were good. I was not, you know, like the top of the class, but they were pretty good. And so, you know, we looked for a school that had a better reputation, and-and Harpur clearly was that. So I selected that for that reason, and I selected two other private schools. One was Brandeis because I had heard of it and-and the other was Vassar, and that was because I had an excellent but pretty crazy high school English teacher senior year who talked up Vassar a lot. I think it would have been a disaster choice for me, but at any rate, I was, I was accepted at all those schools, but I did not get adequate financial aid in the private schools to make that a possibility. So I went to Harpur. IG: 05:18 Why do you say I am just curious. It would have been a disaster, had you- DW: 05:22 Because my own, at that time, Vassar was an all woman school, and my own, in a sense, shyness, which I tried to overcome when I started college. It would have been harder you would have met young men in these very, I would guess, awkward settings of socials where people would troop in, you know, as opposed to the much more relaxed and integrated in your whole life. Atmosphere at Harpur, including my husband and I both were in Whitney Hall, which was our version at that very antiquated time of a co-ed door. But that meant that the two wings, one was men and one was women. But it did allow for, you know, much more. You know, on anxiety producing just inter regular interactions in the common areas and all that. IG: 06:34 Right-right-right. Okay, so you, did you go on a regent scholarship? DW: 06:48 I had a regent scholarship. IG: 06:50 So had you visited the college before? DW: 06:54 Yeah, we went on a tour. We visited. It is funny because I have absolutely no recollection of visiting Vassar, but I guess we probably did, but I recall visiting Harpur and Brandeis, so we looked around, but you know, it is very hard. I did not have any easy way of talking to people who went there, so I really felt like I could not have been more ignorant going into I did have a sense that I did not particularly want to go to a school with, you know, 20,000 or more students. Harpur at that time had 3000 which I know is very, very different from now, but that had a certain appeal, seemed about right. IG: 07:46 Right-right. So, what were your- by the way, did you have, I mean, do you have siblings? DW: 07:55 No, I am the- IG: 07:56 You are the only child. DW: 07:57 Right. IG: 08:00 So when you first arrived, what were some of the first impressions? Did you feel also, what were your feelings about being on your own, and did you enjoy it? Was it the first taste of freedom? DW: 08:16 Yeah, I was perfectly confident there, and have very good relations with my parents, but I- they just brought me up to have confidence, so I did not have very much homesickness. I did come- we had moved in Brooklyn when I was going to the 11th grade, and I was very unhappy about the change of high schools, and I sort of grumped around and wasted a year in high school, and sort of got into it a little more in my senior year. But all that did to me is it made me determined when I started college that I was going to jump right into things and not waste opportunities to meet people and do things. So, um, so I came very, you know, sort of primed for that it was crowded then, so they had triples in rooms. So-so I had two roommates, and we got along, and we reinforced each other in that regard that we were going to we were not going to sit in our rooms, we were going to get out there and do things. So I-I enjoyed that very much, and I felt that it was tremendous awakening of meeting people and having a good time and, you know, just kind of doing things, not being too nervous to do things. IG: 09:58 Right. You just wanted to take a bite. DW: 10:04 A large number of students did come from the New York metro area, and irritated the students from upstate or central New York, because, you know, we referred to the city. IG: 10:20 Right. DW: 10:21 And they felt that there were other cities in the state, but, but we were a pretty big cohort. IG: 10:29 Do you think that there were, you know, cultural differences that at first kept you away from the students from upstate New York or not at all?. DW: 10:49 No-no, I did not feel that one of my roommates was from like Dutchess County, I guess in the end, the other was from New York City, we got along just fine. It was really not an issue. And, you know, we did not have as much opportunity as people from other schools, perhaps, to meet people from all over the country. But there-there were some international students. And uh- IG: 11:24 Do you remember where they were from? Where they were from? DW: 11:29 I remember a young man from Iran, and I think he came from a pretty privileged family. So in a way, it is, I do not know how he landed in a state university, but, but that is one person I remember. And you know, there was a little bit of a gulf there between my experience and his, but we were friendly. So. IG: 11:58 Where do you remember whether any students of color at the time or? DW: 12:03 Not so many, but some. IG: 12:05 But some. Um, so what was the reputation of Harpur College back then? DW: 12:16 It had the reputation of being an academically good school. It also, I do not think I was, I know I was not aware of it when I went there. But after while, you know, it had the reputation of being a politically progressive school with, you know, very active anti war um. set of beliefs among the students and-and also a fair amount of at least marijuana use got known for that, I suppose. But that was pretty much it. I mean, when I went there, when I was choosing to go, I was not thinking about it is, you know, the political perspectives, particularly, I knew that it had a good reputation academically, and that is pretty much what I knew. IG: 13:19 Right. Were you involved in any of the political activity? Were you in any student groups? DW: 13:28 I was, interestingly, I came to that more slowly. I participated in demonstrations that were held, but I was not active in the groups that organized them. And I had a friend who was, you know, she, I am sure I had one friend, but I remembered that she was involved with SDS, for instance, and they were planning demonstrations. But I was freeloading and not organizing, but I would show up, but there was regularly. IG: 14:04 So what was that like? Where did you, where did you work? I mean, where did you protest? DW: 14:12 You know, this memory is pretty vague, but I was, but I would, you know, in common areas of the campus. It was on campus, as opposed to, say, going into Binghamton. But they were sedate, you know, demonstrations. There were teachings too, you know, people talking interminably about about the issues, IG: 14:40 But so there was no resistance from there were, there was no resistance from the community to these- DW: 14:49 Well, there were, I mean, there was that town gown type hostilities that the- there were. Lot of people in the general community that did not like the idea of anti war protest, but we, you know, we were protesting on the campus, and so they did not care. I mean, they might have cared, but they were not coming there to [crosstalk] I did not, and I have no recollection of that being done, but it certainly might have been done. I mean, if anybody wanted to prompt the, you know, sort of press coverage of conflict, that would be the way to do it. But I was not so engaged at that time that I was going to be in on, you know, the most conflict prone events. You know, if there was something that I could conveniently go to, I agreed with the anti war sentiment, but I was not, I was not a tremendous of- well, I was not any kind of leader or organizer in-in the anti war movement. IG: 16:10 I see. So you did not. Do you know that any of your friends went to Washington to protest or? DW: 16:18 Oh, yes, people did and I did not at that time that I- my parents were quite protective of me and that I knew they would just hate it if I went off and did that, And I was not willing to to cause that angst, I just was not so this was not my time for that kind of activism. For me, the awakening was more in a different direction, which was the beginnings of project Upward Bound on the campus, and- IG: 17:05 Tell us about that. What was- DW: 17:08 Upward Bound was part of the war on poverty--was a federal program that that reached out to high school students in poor communities, poor high schools called disadvantaged then and brought them onto the college campus for summer programs. They would live in the dorms. They had college students as counselors, tutor counselors, I think they called us and we both assisted in teaching in various ways, but there were also a combination of high school and college teachers who taught them things and-and then, you know, it was summer campus and having other kinds of activities for them. I wound up teaching guitar and singing, sort of, and I even assisted in-in teaching swimming, I have water safety, and so I was just under the supervision of somebody who did, but so did, and of course, was with the students in the dorms, and I did that for three summers, and there was follow up activity in the in the school year. And that was very, incredibly formative for me, because I met young people who- IG: 18:41 What were their ages? So there were seniors, juniors in high school? DW: 18:47 [crosstalk] I remember they were not all seniors. I think it was a mix of high school ages. And in fact, I know that was the case because I remember going to their high schools in the school year, intervening, they were not going right off, IG: 19:06 How ere they selected? DW: 19:07 A teacher in one or more teachers in the high schools recommended them for the program. That is how they did it and and so there probably was, there were probably a lot of things that were wrong with the program, and there still were not that many African American kids. In fact, they wound up, they were sensitive about that, and they wound up having a group of African American kids from Mississippi be part of the program because they were having a hard time getting the schools in the Binghamton area to recommend African American kids to the program, and there were not really Latino kids to speak of. At that time. So, but these were very poor kids. They absolutely filled the bill in terms of of that. And I, you know, I absolutely saw the lack of opportunity that they had and the promise that they had, so, the unfairness, you know, my-my family was not rich, but I had plenty more opportunities than they had and-and expectations as we started out, so I- that was the beginning of a lifelong commitment to economic justice issues which were more I played more of a role in than at the time I was in college in anti war efforts, although I was, you know, foot soldier, but-but, you know, I met one of, one of the girls in my group had false teeth. She was a high school student, and she had never, you know, been able to have any preventive dental care. And so by the time she was, you know, in high school, she had had to have all her teeth pulled, and that was pretty galvanizing. And this one young girl who was very, very smart, and she, was such a loner and an outsider in her school, and it was, this was the kind of program that was made for somebody like her, because she could go into a place and realize, well, there is a place I could go to. I am not just this weird duck that nobody likes. And so there was a young guy who wrote poetry, and you know, this was very much before the rap era. So nobody was writing poetry, and may was alive to be writing his poetry in terms of the attitude towards that. But so I just, you know, it was an opportunity to see what-what potential there was in all of these kids. And so that absolutely shaped what I did for the rest of my life. IG: 22:44 The rest of your life. So just I am curious, how long was this program? A month and a half, two months, three months. DW: 22:54 It was during the summer. So it probably was six to eight weeks, probably eight weeks. That they lived on the campus. IG: 23:05 Right. So did you mention that there was any follow up on these young people? DW: 23:13 There was some we went to the- their high schools during the school year, and I remember not too terribly much, but remember that it seemed their high school seemed like a really forbidding place, you know, you went in there and did not feel like this was a welcoming place or a place that was gonna inspire anybody to go on in school. So I, I do not, I really do not know what happened to the students. It was hard to track them long enough to know, you know, how many of them did actually go on to college. The one, the brightest one that I mentioned, I know that she did, and I sort of kept in touch with her longer than some, um, I even, let us see, I was rooting around. This will be quite useless, because I do not remember anybody's names, but these were, these were students who were in the program. That was somebody who was another counselor. Let us see some of these were. IG: 24:36 Have you kept in touch with any of them? DW: 24:39 For a while, as I say, I kept in touch with one, but I have not been for a really long time. IG: 24:47 Are there any photographs of them? DW: 24:50 Not in this group. This was a high school teacher where, you know now I know I should tell younger people to write the names down, because you think. You will never forget, but then you will forget, but then each and every one of them. But this was a dorky picture of me and my- IG: 25:10 Tthat is very cute. DW: 25:14 So-so these were, you know, it was a wonderful experience for me, and I hope it was useful for them. IG: 25:28 So you said that this was a formative experience. And did it determine what you were studying at the college to begin with? DW: 25:39 You know, it did not really, I was a lit major, and I did not change that, and I- in my experiences with social sciences, I felt that they were dry as dust and-and I actually felt that there was more, you know, sort of, if you were thinking about it, from the point of view of counseling. Because I did not initially think that my role was going to be in terms of the more systemic change. I thought in terms of working in, you know, more individually at school or other I was not so sure what I was gonna do but, but I felt that there were more human truths of-of-of how people behave and think through literature than through some of the social science films. Well, there was a role for both, but-but that is kind of where I was at the time. So I was a lit major, and I did go on. I got a master's in social work after- IG: 26:57 Where? DW: 26:58 In San Diego State. So I met my husband at Harpur. He was a senior when I was a freshman, and he, when he graduated, went off to study at UC San Diego, and we had a sort of a mail order correspondence romance for occasional get togethers while he was in California, and I finished school at Harpur and I-I finished in seven semesters, and we got married right afterwards. So I was 20 years old, and we- I got a job, you know, not in any area that I would particularly wanted to continue in, and that was motivating to want to go on in school. And at that point, I got a master's in social work. So at that point, I felt more that my schooling should have to do with what I might actually want to do as a career. IG: 28:09 And so give us an idea of your career trajectory. You lived in California for a number of years and- DW: 28:19 Right through the end of Mark's schooling, really, because he was in a PhD program; my program, but he was well into it. IG: 28:30 What did he study? DW: 28:31 Biochemistry, and he had a tremendously positive experience formative there at Harpur because of that, he- Professor Norcross [Bruce Norcross] was a much beloved chemistry professor there who he was very close with, and really helped him make his decision about whether he wanted to make that a career. So that was his thing. So he he got a PhD at UC San Diego and and I got my master's degree. And when he was done, and I was done, he went to a post doctoral fellow in University of Washington in Seattle, and then we decided after a while to come back East to families, but in terms of my work experiences, as I say, I did not initially think that it would be in the political direction. And so I did study. I had a field placement as a school social worker, because that did seem close to what I had experienced, but I could not get a job. Doing it right away. I wound up being a counselor in a college in San Diego briefly before we moved then, I was a counselor, sort of or a student activities advisor in University of Washington. So that was at the college level. And then when we moved to Boston, I was pregnant and I did not want to get a job right then, and so I started volunteering, and I had to make the decision, should I volunteer in something that was going to help me get a job, or should I volunteer in something that I thought I would never get a job in, but that I thought was interesting. So I thought I was choosing the latter, and I-I was volunteering with a group called Americans for Democratic Action, which was a progressive political organization. It still is, but at that time, it had more chapters around the country, and so ultimately I got to be the sole staff person for that organization. And then from there, I did transition to be the director of a Human Services Coalition in well, it was called the Massachusetts Human Services coalition is quite similar in nature to the work I am doing now. So again, you know, I thought what I was doing was just something I would be interested in that I would never be able to get paid for. But I was wrong about that. So I, so I, that was how I moved into more of the sort of systemic change political policy. IG: 32:08 Tell us about these organizations and how you managed to work at both, you know, organizing these people and also managing your child. DW: 32:25 Well, I was very different from an awful lot of people nowadays. I did take more time home with our daughter than many people have the luxury of doing now. And so I was at home with her. I did not start to work part even part time, until she was about two and a half. And, and that was part time. And then I, you know, as she got older, I transitioned to full time work. So that was wonderful that I could do that. And I feel I know that some people choose not to, wanted to stay home longer, but I know that a lot of people might choose to, if it was at all an option for them. So I was grateful for that. So that was how I had done the volunteering, you know, before she was born and and I am sure I did little bits of things when I could after she was born, but I did not go into paid employment until-until she was two and a half or so. IG: 33:43 So-so what was the nature of your volunteering? What did you do from day to day? DW: 33:47 Well- IG: 33:48 The first organization. DW: 33:49 With Americans for democratic action, we-we took positions on issues in the state legislature, and sometimes went and testified at hearings. I do remember being incredibly nervous about doing that, you know, and and the person who was guiding me sort of laughing, but being supportive, you know, bear in mind, you know more about this than they do, and all of that so and, of course, I have had- IG: 33:50 What kinds of things did you justify? DW: 33:59 I was more in the domestic well, of course, state legislature, so human needs, kinds of programs, you know, support for education and social services and cash assistance and those kinds of things. And helping with for Americans for democratic action, we could do a record of roll call votes. It was not a tax exempt organization. We could take positions on candidates so we were. We did, and we recorded their roll call votes. So researching what the votes should be, that was a part of what we did. And we had meetings with the members of the organization, and you get a speaker to inform people about this or that topic. And there was close collaboration with like minded members of Congress, excuse me, members of the state legislature. And in fact, you may know Barney Frank, who was a member of Congress for a long time. Well, he started out as a state representative. Well, he started other things before then, but he was a state representative for a long time, so I knew him quite well then. But anyway, so that is what we did there, and then moving to this Massachusetts Human Services coalition. IG: 35:55 How did you find that? DW: 35:58 Well, I think, well, you know, groups know each other, and I may have participated with them some as a as somebody who was with Americans for democratic action, I kind of forget exactly how I got involved with them, but there they were very small staff. There were, you know, I think three staff or something, plus volunteers. And so I did take the executive director job there after a while, and was there for about 10 years. IG: 36:46 What were the years that you were there? DW: 36:50 Not too good about this. Let us see. Probably about (19)83 to (19)93 something. Yeah, that would be about right. And, after that, we moved to Washington because of a job that my husband was taking, and his job was at the Food and Drug Administration. He was a biochemist, and he worked in research while he was in Boston, but he was getting kind of tired of that. I think he liked the idea of moving more into the regulatory area. There was a certain research component there too at the FDA, so-so he did that, and we came here, and then I got a job at the Children's Defense Fund, which is, I do not know if you have heard of them, but Marian Wright Edelman is their director--was then too, and founder, and so I worked for them for about nine years on a lot of policy and advocacy areas, with regard especially to income security areas, cash assistance programs, housing IG: 38:14 So, what would you do? Would you go and testify? Or would you- DW: 38:19 Occasionally, is more of not as much testifying, but cannot be too hot anymore. But I would go on visits to Hill staff to talk about our issues in when you get to the congressional level, you are not as often meeting with the members of Congress as you would meet with state legislators directly. There was a lot more staff work going on there. So we would meet with Hill staff and try to shape what they were doing. Um, and- IG: 39:07 How would you do that? I mean, to a novice, to somebody who does not know, would you, I mean, what form of, what was a form that you were lobbying? DW: 39:18 Well, you know, in our view, there was, there was a combination of things that have has to happen. You need the policy expertise to bring a specific set of proposals to them. And so we would, you know, be doing the writing and the evidence and all of that. But we also- IG: 39:41 How did you collect the evidence? DW: 39:44 Sometimes there was really just kind of like writing research paper, some we had on staff analysts who would be able to take a look at the say acensus poverty data and be able to show disproportionate poverty-poverty among, of course, communities of color, or point out how younger children were more likely to be poor than older children, and therefore we need to train a set of policies for the youngest children, or, you know, so the that, as well as policy experts looking at programs that work that might have been tried in a given area, and bringing that to members of Congress. So-so there was that, but there was also a keen understanding that you need constituents to be saying, we support this or we oppose that. So the other part of our work would be educating people around the country and encouraging them to take action. And so that was part of- IG: 41:01 So, educating people around the country, did you travel? DW: 41:05 I did more at CDF than in my work now, but so yes, we would do that. There was also a big concentration of effort among African American leaders and community leaders, faith leaders, at the Children's Defense Fund, and there was, and is what they called a black community Crusade for Children. And they had a lot. They had some offices based in the south, and they would have meetings in black churches or in group settings of various kinds. And I, as a staff person knowledgeable in particular areas would go, and that was an educational experience for me, and I hope for them too, but so that was fun and but that was way of bringing the information to people who were out around the country to say, you know, here is what is at stake. Here is what Congress is trying to decide. You have got to speak out and tell them you do not want this or you do want that. IG: 42:29 So what was the way that you measured your success? DW: 42:32 Well, did we stop a bad bill from passing? Did we get a good thing from passing? That was one way. But then interim goals are, did you reach more people? I mean, now nowadays, the metrics are easier. There was not as much internet when I was first at CDF. So now, of course, you really can measure pretty accurately how many people you are reaching, but we did measure it in terms of sometimes we could gage, because we would have toll free telephone numbers, how many people called Congress through a toll Free number, and if that number was up or even just gaging, we successfully got Reverend so and so to get an op ed in the local paper. IG: 43:30 I see, did you, did you help the Reverend pen this editorial, sometimes-sometimes? DW: 43:40 We tried a mix of maybe writing a first draft with holes in it for them to put in their personal stuff, and then they would edit it some more, I think, until they were satisfied that it accurately reflected them. IG: 44:00 So-so, and how did you come to form your current organization? DW: 44:07 Well, I did not form it. In fact, when I was at the Children's Defense Fund, I was a board member of this coalition on human needs, which was formed in the Reagan years to protest or try to fight against efforts then made to cut and block grant various human needs programs. Well, there are a bunch of social services programs that used to be separate with specific goals, and they were combined, for instance, into something called the Social Services Block Grant. And that, to us, was one example of why you never want to be block granting programs because, or often do not want to because while they would tout it as a wonderful way for states to have flexibility that first of all, they cut all the programs when they combine them into this thing- IG: 45:12 I see. DW: 45:13 -with the deniability they, Oh, you like this youth something or other program. Well, we did not cut it, you know, we just put it into this pot. But of course, the overall dollars were less than before. Some something had to give. And then the very diffuseness of the programs- IG: 45:36 How so? DW: 45:36 -of the overall block grant, because it was for a whole lot of things. It was not just for youth programs, so and so, caused them then to say, well, this does not have a very defined purpose. That was the whole point of it, not to have a defined purpose and to give flexibility to the states. But once it did not have that, then they did not make it a particular priority to fund it. So it was cut and then flat-funded for 20 years, 30 years and more than that by now. So-so it has eroded tremendously, and of course, in the current climate, both the Republicans in the in Congress and the President have proposed eliminating it all together. So-so that is just an example of the kind of thing that we wanted to oppose and did not succeed in every instance. But then the coalition, well as it was formed, it was a mix of faith groups and sort of umbrella organizations for human services providers and policy experts and labor and other advocacy organizations. Speaker 1 46:48 If you were to do it all over again, and what would have been a strategy to prevent some of the obstacles that you encountered early on? DW: 47:18 Sorry, some of the the strategies are right, in the sense that, again, you need a combination of message and messenger, so you need accurate information. We still believe in that and but you need a very active participation by constituents that-that is crucial, and so we do a mix of things. Now, for instance, we-we are a tax exempt organization. There is- we cannot spend all of our money lobbying, but we spend the allowable part of it lobbying and educating people out around the country about when various things are about to happen in Congress, and encouraging them to weigh in. So we- IG: 48:23 What do you do this outreach? Do you do it through writing, or do you actually visit? For example, you said faith based organizations. Do you visit places of worship and talk to communities- DW: 48:40 In my, in my current role, I do not travel quite as much because the organizations we work with often do not have the budget to pay for it, and we have not had the budget to do it. But we-we do a lot of webinars and conference calls and so ways of reaching folks around the country, we work through, to a great extent, advocacy organizations, and hope that they then funnel the information out to their own networks. And so we- there is a combination of writing and presenting in this way. We partner with organizations in states, for instance, every year when the census poverty data comes out, we partner with 10 or a dozen organizations in that many states to co write a report. In their state, it is going to be, you know, the. What the situation is in New York or in Ohio or someplace. And we write a national report as well. So then those groups release it there, and we try to encourage press coverage there. So, you know, we do multiple routes to try to get more activism on the part of state groups, and we reach out both directly through our own lists and because we are a coalition through all these different groups lists to encourage people you know straightforwardly to contact their members of Congress at the right moment, or these other forms of getting into the press, a response. And you know, sometimes we have been in times when we have been able to make real expansions in services, for instance, during the- after the Great Recession, Obama administration and Congress were looking for ways of making investments spending money that was going to boost the economy, and we played quite a role in bringing proposals from a lot of different human needs areas so that it was not all infrastructure, you know, building roads or something that kind of seen as the typical way. But we helped people to understand that when you give poor people money, for instance, or in kind like SNAP or food stamp benefits, they are going to go out and spend it right away. They are not going to save it the way a richer person will. And that moves the economy in. There were economists saying that so that helped, and so in those kinds of times, we could play a role in increasing the amount of money that was spent on food stamps, on child care, on unemployment insurance, on housing. Various employment programs, you know, quite a lot of programs. That was a big good time. And I mean, it was a recession, or that was a horrible time, but we were able to get some improvements that help people. And of course, there have been times when we have been fighting against cuts like now. IG: 52:46 So how has your strategy changed under the current administration? DW: 52:52 Well, we certainly we are not getting in to visit with them. They are not responsive at all, but we have just redoubled our efforts to include constituents in-in both meetings. We might have group meetings with representatives from a number of different groups here on the hill going to a congressional office, and we will have one or two constituents on by phone to demonstrate that we are connected to their constituents. And that is been really quite effective. And then more, you know, larger efforts of reaching out to get lots and lots of people either to send emails or call, and that is been working. And then the other strategy, we are a non partisan organization, but we recognize that by identifying those who are supporters and who are not Democrats, largely in this political environment, have been willing to fight for the issues that we fight for, and the extent to which they do have leverage, like when you need 60 votes in the Senate, and Republicans do not have 60 votes. So if they want certain things to pass, they have to go along with things. And even in this awful climate, we have been able to have some successes. For instance, an increase in child care dollars recently was approved that I never thought we would have in this climate, but that was terrific and as well as increased funding for opioid use disorder. So but an awful lot of what we are doing is just trying to stand in opposition. Addition to awful things that they want to do. And, you know, the Farm Bill has the SNAP or food stamp program, and I do not want to go on too much longer, but the- and they want to make cuts in that to deny millions of people assistance. And we are working with Democrats to refuse they cannot pass a farm bill without Democratic votes because they lose too many Republican votes for other reasons. And right now, our strategy is, delay, stop it, and we are making headway. So you know, sometimes the gage is, can you stop something awful from happening? And sometimes the gage is, can actually make something good happen, and so we have been in on some of both of that. IG: 56:07 So what are your biggest victories? Do you think with this organization, with the Coalition for Human Needs, I mean, experiences? What do you think? What are your fondest achievements? DW: 56:25 I would say that what I described during the recovery from the recession period where we were able to encourage the thinking that part of economic recovery required assistance to low income people and very concrete, tangible forms of assistance. The fact that so many of those things were incorporated, I would say, was one of our biggest successes, another big success we have interested ourselves in tax matters, both low income tax credits that put money in the hands of low income people, as well as the broader topic of not wanting to see revenues cut that where the benefits go, largely to upper income corporations, and therefore losing revenues that could be spent on investments. But at any rate, we-we worked quite a lot on expansions in the Earned Income Tax Credit and the Child Tax Credit, which are low income tax credits extremely beneficial to low income families, and we also have played a role in so far, but I do not know how long we can keep it up, preventing cuts in the child tax credit that will exclude some immigrant families. So on a number of times we have been part of an effort that stopped them from doing that. But right now, I do not know. We will see if we can keep it going. IG: 58:09 It sounds like wonderful work. I would like to know if, for the students who listen to these tapes now and in the future, do you have any messages about how to think about their undergraduate education? DW: 58:38 Well, I would say when served you, my advice is that your education includes many parts. It includes allowing yourself to blossom in all kinds of ways. And of course, it includes learning things academically. I think you do not have to, in many instances, make all your decisions too early. You know, as I say, I was a literature major. I never regretted that. I understand that if you want to go into a career in sciences, you really have to have that background. But even, you know, my husband took a lot of literature courses, and was not sure whether he should go in the sciences or literature. He never regretted the number of courses he took in areas that were outside of the sciences. I think there really is a reason to have a liberal arts education, and that it gives you a breadth of view that stands you in good stead in all your life. But there, there is, there are so many opportunities on a college campus to learn all kinds of things that you never were exposed to before, and people should take advantage of those because they do not know which of those things might open up worlds to them. And you know, for me, of course, I have described how the opportunity to be in an Upward Bound program. I wanted to be a singer when I was in started college, I had no thought of social activism or anti poverty, economic justice work, but my eyes were open because of an experience that I had on the campus that I will be forever grateful for. But also, you know, there are other experiences. We could the Guarneri String Quartet was in residence at Harpur in our days, and you could go to a concert for 25 cents. And and we went and, and I have a and my husband have a lifelong love for classical music, and we did not have so very much exposure to it before that. So, you know, I imagine there are still those kinds of opportunities for people to get outside of what they already know, and they should take advantage of them. IG: 1:01:31 Any concluding remarks. DW: 1:01:34 Well, you know, I thought you were going to ask more about what I, you know, experiences at the school, so, but what you said is, it is true the other part of it that I was there at a very interesting time when I started, women had a curfew. You may have heard this from plenty of other people, and men did not. And as I said, the the wing we were in the progressive dorm because it was co ed. But the wings were separate, of course, and only the common areas were together. And after the curfew, the men could not go down to the basement area where the food machines were, and so the women who could go down there would throw up, you know, a Snickers bar to them if they threw down the change. But by the time, by the end of my time, a lot of that had opened up. They were starting to build the sweet dorms and and the curfew for women was a thing of the past. So it was quite a time of transition in people's attitudes. And it is good thing, good thing, to get away from that. And so I was, you know, the study of the (19)60s is worthwhile because of all the, you know, that was only the little inkling of, of course, much more large societal changes going on. But I felt like I was kind of a part of it. IG: 1:03:17 Thank you very much. DW: 1:03:18 Sure. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Deborah Volkell Weinstein Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weinstein, Deborah Volkell ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Deborah Weinstein is the executive director of the Coalition on Human Needs, an alliance of national organizations working together to promote public policies for low income women and children. Deborah has covered politics, crime, and healthcare policies for various news outlets including <em>Medical Marketing &amp; Media</em>, where she specializes in Obesity, Alzheimer’s disease and healthcare costs. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Debbie Weinstein.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-16 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 63:19 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8db33061672de922b958b947995e5bbf.mp3 bccad46922c8ac6893060d19d53d70d1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-09 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Amy Weintraub Year of Graduation 1964 Biographical Text Amy Weintraub, PhD, led the Center for Victim Support at Harlem Hospital Center for 25 years and assessed patients with a history of domestic violence and sexual assault. She currently teaches courses on these subjects at Mercy College. She was a sociology major at Harpur College. She was a National Institute of Mental Health Fellow. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni working with victims of domestic violence/sexual assault; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni working with victims of domestic violence/sexual assault; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Amy M. Weintraub Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 9 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) AW: 00:02 Okay, so we begin with your identifying yourself, who you are, where we are, and the date of the interview. AW: 00:12 My name is Amy Malzberg Weintraub, and this is an oral history project being conducted by SUNY Binghamton, and we are in my apartment at 95 West, 95th Street. IG: 00:25 Okay, thank you. So, can I call you Amy or Dr. Weintraub? AW: 00:31 You can call me Amy. IG: 00:32 Okay, so Amy, tell us where you grew up. AW: 00:36 I grew up in Albany, New York. IG: 00:38 Oh, who were your parents? AW: 00:43 Dr. Benson Malzberg, and my mother was Rose Malzberg Hershberg, yeah, Rose Hershberg Malzberg, IG: 00:50 Okay, and so your father was a doctor in? AW: 00:57 My father got his PhD at Columbia in sociology. IG: 00:59 Oh, so- AW: 01:00 He also studied in Paris. He got a fellowship to study continue their studies in Paris. So my father spoke French fluently. IG: 01:07 Oh, very good. It was very interesting. So-so tell us about what your parents did. AW: 01:13 My father was a director at the department Mental Hygiene. He studied the incidence and prevalence of mental illness in New York State, and he published a great deal. And my mother had been a teacher in the Albany Public School System. When she married, she was working for the New York State Department, I think it was the accounting department. And then when I was in the eighth grade, my father retired and became a principal investigator with a grant that was funded by Department of Mental-Mental Health, Department of Health and Mental Health, Federal Department of Health and Mental Health. My mother became his administrative assistant. IG: 01:57 Oh, and this was all in Albany. AW: 02:00 Albany, New York, yep. IG: 02:01 Okay, so were your parents--can I ask how many generations ago did they come to the United States? AW: 02:12 Well, my father was born here, his mother was born here, also. IG: 02:15 Yes. AW: 02:15 It was his um, it was his grandfather who migrated, I believe, from Poland. IG: 02:21 I see, I see. AW: 02:21 My mother was a year old when she came here. IG: 02:25 From? AW: 02:25 Poland. IG: 02:26 From Poland. So, I assumed that, since your parents were highly educated, that the expectations of you were that you would go on to college. AW: 02:41 Well, I did not assume I was going to get my PhD. I did cer- I decided that on my own, but they sort of expect me to get a college education. IG: 02:48 Yes, and so they valued education. AW: 02:51 Oh, they certainly did. IG: 02:52 Very-very much. AW: 02:53 They used to correct my English. I used to write them letters from Harpur. We called it Harpur College then and I made spelling mistakes, and they used to write me back letters telling me just how you spell the word. [laughs] IG: 03:07 Did that- I mean, what did that irritate you? AW: 03:12 Was kind of cute. IG: 03:13 Did you- AW: 03:15 I do that with my own children? IG: 03:17 Oh! Did you- I have done it with my daughter. AW: 03:20 Okay. IG: 03:21 So-so-so did you have siblings? AW: 03:24 Yes, I have a twin sister, and I had no I had an older sister. IG: 03:29 And the expectations for them were the same as- AW: 03:36 Absolutely-absolutely. IG: 03:39 So what were your reasons for going to Harpur College? AW: 03:45 Well, Harpur type was not my first choice? IG: 03:47 No, okay. AW: 03:48 My first choice is Brandeis University. IG: 03:50 Uh huh. AW: 03:52 Because my mother had been part of a Brandeis University chapter. I know Brandeis University just hit my imagination. IG: 03:58 Yeah. AW: 03:59 But I was not accepted. IG: 04:00 You were not accepted? AW: 04:01 No, I think three people from Albany applied, and only one was accepted. So I had to find another college, and of a fellow student of mine, Stuart Lewis, on his- parents night and I went to the middle school, which was a private school, and one of Stuart's parents happened to mention Harpur College and my mother and father. So mother [inaudible] "Why do not you apply to Harpur College"? So I did, but it was not half the time. It was not my first choice, but by the time I graduated from Harpur College, I realized what a great school it is, and I am very glad I went there. But when my own children enter college, I- it was so important to me to go to a private school, because, of course, SUNY is a public university, right? IG: 04:47 Yes. AW: 04:48 And although it was a great university, I got the most [inaudible] education you could possibly get at a school. I wanted my own children go to a private school. So my son ended up going to Union College. My daughter went to New York City. She went to Marymount, Manhattan. IG: 05:07 Well, so Harpur College was not your first choice, but you had other SUNYs to choose from. So why did you choose Harpur and not Albany or SUNY [crosstalk] AW: 05:24 Oh, first, I did not want to go to Albany because I grew up in Albany. So I want to go away to college. IG: 05:29 I see. AW: 05:30 So I had to pick a school that was not no, not anywhere near Albany. And there are other schools but my-my older sister, went to Russell Sage. IG: 05:40 I see. AW: 05:40 But that was like 20-minute drive from the house, so [inaudible] was not going to go to Russell Sage. IG: 05:49 So what was the reputation that you knew of about Harpur College at the time? What reputation- AW: 05:56 I did not know that much about it, but I knew it was a top-notch school. IG: 05:59 Yeah. AW: 06:00 I do not know where I got the information from, but I knew it was a top-notch school. It was, it still is, the elite of the SUNY system. IG: 06:07 Oh, the SUNYs. Absolutely, it is. Um, so- AW: 06:10 That we were told when we got there, look around, look to the left, look to the right, because some of you would not make it through Harpur College. IG: 06:18 Really? AW: 06:18 Really. IG: 06:19 Who told you this? AW: 06:20 The dean. IG: 06:21 The dean. AW: 06:22 Yep. IG: 06:23 When you first arrived? AW: 06:24 Yeah, we had a gathering of the first-year students. IG: 06:28 So, what-what do you remember any of the first impressions that Harpur made on you- the campus of the- AW: 06:34 It was a beautiful campus, and it is right, that is the Susquehanna River. IG: 06:39 Yes. AW: 06:40 Floats in right down to the bottom of the campus. So I remember every morning walking to my classes and seeing- being able to see the river, and that was, I was very impressed by that. And I hope there was about there were mountains behind the campus. And in the springtime, my twin sister and I and a friend of ours went hiking and the mountains behind the college. And that was that was lots of fun. IG: 07:05 Just tell us for the record, what were the years that you went to Harpur College. AW: 07:11 1964 1960. IG: 07:14 So, you were one of the earlier recruits to Harpur College. AW: 07:18 What do you mean? IG: 07:19 Well, because, you know, it came into existence when in the Harpur College in the (19)50s. Or? AW: 07:32 That is true. That is true. By time I got to the college, it was already new campus. IG: 07:37 It was already a new campus. AW: 07:39 It was a new campus. Yep. IG: 07:40 I see. So did you live in? Were there- you know, what were the dorm situations like? Did you have a roommate? AW: 07:49 I had a roommate. IG: 07:50 You had a roommate, and the dorms were segregated at the time. AW: 07:54 You got the [inaudible] coming from the main client campus. AW: 07:59 Yes. AW: 07:59 The men's dormitories, I think, are on the left. IG: 08:02 Uh huh. AW: 08:02 And the girls are on the right. IG: 08:05 So, and you liked the-the dormitories, and where do you remember any of the I-I heard- told that there were different kinds of restrictions on curfews- AW: 08:19 Of course- IG: 08:19 -women then there will- AW: 08:20 You had to be back by 12 o'clock. IG: 08:22 Yeah, every night, or just on weekends. AW: 08:26 I think the weekends, it was either 12 o'clock or one o'clock. IG: 08:28 Yeah. AW: 08:29 And the course, during the week, I think they closed the doors by 10 o'clock at night. AW: 08:35 No, it did not bother me at all. IG: 08:35 And did you think that-that? Did you think anything of the curfew- IG: 08:36 It did not bother- AW: 08:37 I am currently talking about the (19)60s, right? IG: 08:37 Yeah. AW: 08:37 I am trying to go to college now, course, would be a major problem IG: 08:47 Of course, of course, of course. So, um, did you make friends? AW: 08:52 Of course, I did. IG: 08:53 Yeah. And so were your friends, like-like, you from the Albany area, or they were from- AW: 09:01 The only person from the Albany area was Stuart Lewis. IG: 09:05 Uh huh. AW: 09:05 Everybody else came from across New York state. IG: 09:09 Right. But the majority came from New York City and Long Island. AW: 09:14 Yeah, my first roommate came from the Bronx. IG: 09:16 Yeah. AW: 09:16 And my second roommate, Ann Goldman, grew up in Brooklyn. IG: 09:21 Did you have opportunity to visit the city? AW: 09:26 In college? IG: 09:27 While you were in college, or before? Did AW: 09:29 I have relatives who lived in New York. So I see before I entered college, of course, I was in college, I came to New York. IG: 09:35 Yeah. AW: 09:36 That is when- I went to Brown after Harpur College. IG: 09:39 Right. AW: 09:39 And I got my masters at Brown, and that is why I want to come to New York because I knew New York. IG: 09:43 Yes, okay, so-so you were no stranger. So there was no cultural, you know, difference that you noticed between New York City, because that is also something that you know interviewees that I speak to uh, from that, from that period, talk about that there was kind of a cultural difference between people from more rural parts of the state- AW: 10:08 No, I knew New York. That is why I wanted to come here. [crosstalk] going to some place like Boston, I did not know anybody in Boston. AW: 10:16 I have relatives in New York. IG: 10:16 Right. IG: 10:17 I see. AW: 10:17 So coming to New York was, um, very natural for me. AW: 10:20 I am from upstate. [crosstalk] IG: 10:20 Of course. AW: 10:20 Well, I think- IG: 10:20 Very natural for you. Okay, so did you have but did you notice differences between, you know, upstate students and New York City students? IG: 10:20 Whatever the difference is. AW: 10:28 Probably not very prejudiced, but I think the New York City students were a bit more aggressive. IG: 10:41 Yeah, a bit more aggressive. AW: 10:43 [inaudible] others? IG: 10:45 Not in those terms, but that there were differences. I mean, so they were more aggressive, and in which way? AW: 10:54 They were real quick to raise their hands. IG: 10:57 Yeah. AW: 10:58 They took over more organizational leadership. IG: 11:00 Uh huh. AW: 11:01 There is a, I know there is a Democrat- Democratic Club, and I think the leadership is from New York City. IG: 11:07 I see, were you involved in any of the clubs yourself? AW: 11:11 No, I was only involved in Jewish program. IG: 11:13 What was a Jewish program like at the time? AW: 11:16 Well, it is certainly a lot better than it was when I was there. First of all, my sister and I went to synagogue every Saturday because we had done that in Albany. So of course, we continue doing it. And Binghamton, I still do it. I am a member of a congregation in New York City. IG: 11:30 Yeah. So what was that like? Describe to us what that congregation was like, where you met and um- AW: 11:38 Well, it was a very small congregation. There was, they were located in downtown Binghamton. Now they have moved to Vestal. I see, I know they have a new building. IG: 11:48 That is right. So you would travel to Binghamton from- AW: 11:53 I took the bus [inaudible] from the Student Union. IG: 11:55 Uh huh. AW: 11:56 And stopped right in Binghamton like and maybe two blocks in the synagogue. IG: 12:02 What was the name of the congregation? AW: 12:05 I do not have no idea. IG: 12:05 You do not remember. So it was a small. AW: 12:09 It was very small. IG: 12:10 It was very small from-from people in the town, or from students. Essentially. AW: 12:14 No, we were the only students who went. IG: 12:16 But it was a congregation of people from Binghamton? AW: 12:19 I would say they had maybe, at 25 to 35 people had service on a Saturday. IG: 12:26 At most. AW: 12:28 Unless there was a Bar Mitzvah. IG: 12:29 I see, I see. And so what do you remember? Were it? What, where it was in, downtown- AW: 12:38 Well, I remember how to get there, but I remember the street. There was a hotel in Binghamton. It was a Sheraton. I think. IG: 12:44 Okay, so it still exists, I think. AW: 12:46 And I think we walked passes the Sheraton took a right-hand turn. IG: 12:50 I see, I see. AW: 12:51 That is the synagogue. IG: 12:52 So what do you remember of Binghamton? This the city of the time? Did- was it- did it strike you as rural, or was it- AW: 13:03 Well, obviously, I come from over New York, which is not a well now Norman, New York has definitely changed. IG: 13:09 Yeah. AW: 13:10 We have the state office buildings downtown, yeah, and so there are more restaurants and much more to do in Albany, New York now, but Binghamton was very rural. I think it still is. IG: 13:22 Was it in comparison to Albany? Was it more rural? AW: 13:27 More rural? Yes. IG: 13:27 Yes. So-so you have the worship activity, did you have any kind of community involvement outside of that. AW: 13:45 Well, I sang in the choir. IG: 13:48 Attendance. Oh, I see. AW: 13:50 I sang in this choir at Milne. I went to the Milne school. I sang of the choir at Harpur College. IG: 13:54 Oh, well, so tell us about that. AW: 13:56 Well, I do not- IG: 13:57 Tell me about it. AW: 13:58 I really do not remember the various songs that we sang. But do remember we gave a concert once in one of the high schools, and I remember getting in a bus and going to the concert to perform. IG: 14:08 Do you remember anything about the repertoire? Was it classical music? AW: 14:12 It was classical. IG: 14:14 It was classical. What-what kind of- so you were studying music? Were you? AW: 14:19 No, I-I played piano when I was in high school. IG: 14:23 I see. AW: 14:23 But I quit when I was, like, in 11th grade. Well, we have a piano here. My husband's a great pianist. He entertains me all the time. IG: 14:30 Oh, well. AW: 14:32 But I could barely get two notes on the piano now. But I love to sing. So when I sang at the Harpur into the um, I sang in the Milne school choir. I sang in my synagogue choir. IG: 14:41 Yeah. AW: 14:42 And I sang at the Harpur College choir. IG: 14:44 Did you sing, Alto, Soprano? AW: 14:46 Alto. IG: 14:47 Alto, I can tell by your voice. Okay. So what other activity- well, first of all, tell us, what was the program of your- what was the what was your major? [crosstalk] AW: 15:01 My father was a sociology major. IG: 15:02 Yes. AW: 15:03 So obviously I had a bench for sociology. IG: 15:07 Yes. AW: 15:07 So I became a sociology major. IG: 15:09 And tell us about you know, the program of your study. What? What did you find that interesting? AW: 15:14 I love sociology. I have a PhD in sociology. IG: 15:18 So what-what kinds of things about studying sociology appealed to you at Harpur College. What did you learn? AW: 15:26 I was learning about sociology is a study of society, right? IG: 15:30 Yes. AW: 15:30 So I learned all about a society, particularly American society, by studying sociology. IG: 15:37 Okay, so in general terms and more. You know what-what were you learning at the time? Do you remember what-what kinds of things were you learning about America? AW: 15:46 I had a professor today of course on a Soviet Union [inaudible] still existed. I took a course on American sociology, Richard Hamilton, and would discuss America being a melting pot. IG: 15:47 Yes. AW: 15:47 I remember that class very well because he made a comment about the Yiddish newspapers. IG: 16:07 Yes. AW: 16:07 Yiddish newspapers played a very important role in acculturating American Jews to American society. So I made that point when my grandfather was a Hebrew scholar. IG: 16:19 Oh. AW: 16:20 And he had no use for the Yiddish papers. He read it Hebrew papers. IG: 16:24 Right. AW: 16:24 So I remember my mother made a comment my father had no use for the Yiddish papers, whereupon my father hit the roof, because Yiddish papers were written his household. IG: 16:34 Right. AW: 16:34 He said, "Your grandfather was wrong. It played very important." He confirmed what I had learned in class. British newspapers played a very important role in enabling American Jews to become American. IG: 16:44 Right-right. AW: 16:46 So I remember that class very well. IG: 16:49 Do you, I mean, this is just of-of attention to little bit. But do you remember any Yiddish newspapers being around at the time in the (19)50s and the (19)60s? IG: 17:02 The forward. Was still written in English? AW: 17:02 The forward. AW: 17:03 [inaudible] IG: 17:04 Yeah. Was still written in Yiddish. AW: 17:05 Was still written in Yiddish. The fact I asked my mother wants to teach me Yiddish. IG: 17:10 Yeah. AW: 17:10 Because they spoke Yiddish in her household. IG: 17:12 Uh huh. Oh. AW: 17:14 We had maybe one or two lessons, and I gave up because it was the same letters in Hebrew, but totally different vocabulary. IG: 17:20 Right. AW: 17:21 And I could not. I simply could not learn it. My husband came from a family, they speak Yiddish. IG: 17:24 Yeah. AW: 17:24 So he-he, maybe he cannot speak it, but he has a much better vocabulary than I do. IG: 17:33 So-so was there, you know, an act of Yiddish life in-at the time of your growing up in New York City? AW: 17:40 No. IG: 17:40 That was already gone. It was already, you know, people were assimilated. AW: 17:44 There was nobody-nobody who really knew Yiddish. IG: 17:46 No. AW: 17:46 Nobody. IG: 17:47 Nobody. AW: 17:47 I am sure there are people who knew, but nobody spoke it. IG: 17:50 Well, I know that there was, there was a center at Columbia, YIVO was- AW: 17:54 There is. IG: 17:55 And there-there still is. AW: 17:57 YIVO is now part of the Jewish history. IG: 18:00 I see. So it is [inaudible] AW: 18:00 Something of the Jewish history on 16th Street. IG: 18:03 I see. AW: 18:04 But when I went to Hebrew, when I grew up in Albany, New York, Hebrew was a language that we were all supposed to learn. IG: 18:11 Right. AW: 18:12 So I am able to speak Hebrew. IG: 18:15 Were you able to I mean, we are going off tangent? But this is very interesting to me. So did you have a chance to speak sort of a lot, you know a Hebrew you, I see you have paintings of Israel. Did you have occasion to speak Hebrew in Israel? AW: 18:36 I have been to Israel 14 times. IG: 18:38 And did you speak Hebrew? AW: 18:39 I speak Hebrew all the time. IG: 18:41 All the time, fluently. So it was not a book, language that you know? AW: 18:45 Not a book. But I spoke as much as I spoke Hebrew, they only answered me in English. IG: 18:49 I see, I see. AW: 18:50 They picked up my American accent. IG: 18:52 I see, I see, I understand. AW: 18:55 I love the language. I speak it all. IG: 18:56 Yes, okay, do you read? AW: 19:00 Do I read Hebrew? IG: 19:01 I do. IG: 19:01 Yes. IG: 19:01 Yes. So you continue with [crosstalk] AW: 19:04 I, when I came to New- I took an opponent with my twin sister, but she moved out to marriage. When she married, it we both married to Arnies. She and Arnie moved to America. She was not going to come out. They go upon so I started taking up on my own. You know what Ulpan is? IG: 19:05 No. AW: 19:05 It is the way Hebrew is taught in Israel. I see it is when you walk into an Ulpan class, it is all in Hebrew. IG: 19:29 Uh huh. AW: 19:29 They gave you lots of readings to do, and there is a textbook, and you have to know, learn the grammar of Hebrew. And I have taken Ulpan any number of times in New York. IG: 19:40 Oh, where is it taught here? AW: 19:43 JCC, and [crosstalk] IG: 19:45 I know where that is, yeah, so, but Hebrew was not taught at Harpur College at the time. Do you remember any of the language? AW: 19:55 It was not. IG: 19:56 It was not, it was it was not. So- AW: 20:00 Nobody spoke it. There was nobody spoken to it. IG: 20:02 Nobody-nobody really spoken so. So let us get back to your sociology courses and how you felt they prepared you for your future studies in your future. AW: 20:13 Well, from Harpur College, I went on to Brown University. IG: 20:15 Yes-yes, but we are, you know, focused on a little bit more on Harpur College, because I represent Harpur College and Binghamton University. AW: 20:24 I also got a great education at Harpur College. I did learn sociology. IG: 20:29 Yeah, you learned sociology. So you learned about, you know, how did it expand your mind? How did it expand your understanding of sociology? AW: 20:40 Well, I learned about American society. Most of the courses had dealt with American society. Did take a course on Soviet Union. IG: 20:48 So what were you learning about the Soviet Union in the early (19)60s? AW: 20:52 I do not remember. I do not remember the details of that class. We are going back 50 years. IG: 20:58 Okay, anything that stands out. I mean, can you speak in journal terms about it being in a kind of an enlarging experience for you, it gave you- AW: 21:07 Of course, it was. IG: 21:08 So how so? AW: 21:09 I have got to know my professors, and I got to- I was an honors student. I wrote an honors thesis. IG: 21:13 Okay, so who were some of your professors, do you remember? IG: 21:16 Dr. Peter Dodge. IG: 21:17 Yeah. AW: 21:18 Donald Trump [Donald Throw]. Edwards, I forget his first name. He was very popular. Everybody wanted to take his courses. Um, those are three. I remember most. IG: 21:37 Okay, so-so you said, you know you learned about- AW: 21:40 Richard Hamilton. IG: 21:40 Richard Hamilton. So did you have interaction with your professors after class? Did they invite you to their home? AW: 21:53 My honors professor invited me to his home and we did, and I saw him after I graduated from Harpur, he went on to University of New Hampshire. IG: 22:02 Who was this? AW: 22:03 Peter Dodge, and he was studying in New York one year, and I was already working in New York, so I visited him. He was studying at Columbia. I visited him at his apartment on Riverside Drive. I visited him. And when he moved to New Hampshire, my family and I stopped off on our way to Bar Harbor Maine. So we stopped off and visit with him. IG: 22:24 Yeah. AW: 22:26 And we wrote, he wrote, we kept in contact with each other by way of the United States mail system for many-many years. IG: 22:34 Okay, so you know, so were you- did he, for example, invite um, students over to his- AW: 22:45 No. IG: 22:46 No, it was just after class [crosstalk] AW: 22:48 [crosstalk] myself, as we had developed a special relationship with him. IG: 22:51 I see, I see um, so, you know, just going back to sociology, what were some of the big ideas that you took away from your undergraduate experience? AW: 23:04 The importance of class. We did a lot of work at SES socioeconomic status, so I learned a lot about the role of class in American society. I think class was one of the biggest, the biggest variables that we concentrated on, because there were no Women's Studies. When I graduated Harpur College, IG: 23:30 There were no women women's studies. AW: 23:30 There were no women's studies. IG: 23:33 So-so what were, you, know, you said, variables of class. How was it, for example, how did it relate to the immigrant communities, the melting pot idea? AW: 23:46 Well, of course, when the immigrants came over, they were very lower class, right? AW: 23:50 They had lower class jobs. IG: 23:51 Yeah. IG: 23:52 Yes-yes. AW: 23:52 But as and particularly for the Jews, it was so important that children get college education. IG: 23:57 Yes. AW: 23:58 Now my mother-in-law, my father-in-law, both came from Poland. IG: 24:01 Yes. AW: 24:02 But they were bright enough to have had a college education, but did not have the opportunity to so very important for them that their children go on to get educate, have acquired educations, but I had already come from a family that was well educated. IG: 24:14 Right. IG: 24:15 Right. AW: 24:15 So it was not something that was- it was not um, stress has opened value, AW: 24:16 Just knew it was there. IG: 24:23 Yes. AW: 24:24 House was filled with books. All my parents friends were college educated. AW: 24:28 And it just assumed that we were going to go in on the college as well. But in my husband's example, it was exceptionally important, because his parents had not had an opportunity to be educating. So then they really did stress getting a college education. But in my household, it was just you. It was assumed that you were going to go on and get a college education. IG: 24:28 Right. IG: 24:52 Right. So, how- you know- so-so I guess you did not have the same class struggles that other immigrants have? AW: 25:03 No I was born. Well, my parents were lives of the depression. So, they always say, you know what, we were middle class. It just the matter was we were probably much more upper middle class. But I always assumed we were middle class, because what my parents had conveyed to me when I look back now, your father was the director and departmental of mental hygiene. How could we have just been middle class? We were obviously, we were upper middle class, but my parents kept and saying, oh, we were middle class, we were middle classroom. I tell my own children we were upper middle, we were upper middle class, because it is so important to me. I am having grown up with parents who grew up in the depression that my children have a sense that we were well off. IG: 25:41 Mm-hmm, okay, What-what- tell me about your children. You mentioned that, you know, they went to private schools, and so what-what-what careers are they- AW: 25:57 [crosstalk] royalty expert, he does not want to go on to get his CPA. IG: 25:58 Right. AW: 25:58 He says "I do not want to spend the rest of my career working on doing people's taxes." He thinks certified public accountants do. But he is a royalty expert. He works for Cats Media. IG: 26:14 Right. AW: 26:15 And which is, obviously, it is a media company. IG: 26:18 Right. IG: 26:18 Right. AW: 26:18 And he works on their royalties. Now, it is a lot of computerized work. When you when-when you publicize somebody and they become famous, they owe you a certain amount of royalties for your having pushed them forward. AW: 26:18 So he works in the royalties aspect. IG: 26:23 Uh huh. AW: 26:25 And my-my daughter, works for on the Wall Street Journal. IG: 26:35 Oh, well. What does she do? AW: 26:39 Well, she works in the business part. IG: 26:43 Okay, well, that is publishing. AW: 26:46 She does a lot of scheduling of business meetings. IG: 26:50 I see, I see, I see, that is- it is a good job. AW: 26:55 She loves it. She said, [crosstalk] "Why do you read The New York Times?" I said to her, "You work for the Wall Street Journal. Bring it home and I will read it." She does not bring it home, and I am not going to go to my way to buy a copy. IG: 27:07 No. And besides, it is all online right now. AW: 27:11 That is just true. IG: 27:13 Okay, so again, going back to your experience at Harpur College. So just so you feel that Harpur College prepared you for a future career. IG: 27:27 Oh, absolutely. IG: 27:29 Well, so gave you, you know, kind of a breadth of learning and, you know, understanding of key ideas, and how quickly after that did you go on to grad school? AW: 27:41 Well, I went on to graduate school when I graduated. I was at Brown for two years. I was supposed to have stayed to get my PhD, but after two years, have not been in school for six years, six well, we do not-not including high school and grammar school. I had been studying for so long, I want to come back. I want to work. So I applied for jobs in New York City, and my first job was at Columbia. IG: 28:06 Oh, what did you do at Columbia? AW: 28:07 Well, it was a strictly a first level job out of graduate school. IG: 28:12 Sure. AW: 28:12 It was a study with teamsters, and they would ask them all kinds of questions about their health. IG: 28:17 Oh. AW: 28:17 And I had to quote all that data. IG: 28:20 So, did you work for a department? Or did you- what-what part of Columbia did you work for? AW: 28:25 It was a school of public health. IG: 28:30 I see it is on 1/68 Street, Mailman School of Public Health. AW: 28:30 [inaudible] called the Mailman School then. IG: 28:30 It was not called Mailman [crosstalk] AW: 28:31 No, it was called Columbia University School of Public Health. IG: 28:36 So you enjoyed that? And um- IG: 28:39 It was your first job. AW: 28:39 I cannot say I enjoyed as my first job. AW: 28:41 Yeah. And I think I worked there for two years. IG: 28:45 Yeah. AW: 28:46 And then I got a job. I-I had mostly gone to a sociology convention, American sociology, sociological convention. And I think I saw the job advertised. It was job working for the Community Council of New York. It was also a grant study, and I worked with that Dr. Putter, and we collected data on older people. I forget where the data came from, and I was in charge of developing the questionnaire, analyzing and running it up. AW: 29:17 I see. AW: 29:18 I love that job. IG: 29:19 Yeah. How long were you there? AW: 29:21 I think I was there for two or three years. IG: 29:23 Uh huh. AW: 29:23 [inaudible] a grant ending. IG: 29:25 I see. So you had your graduate degree and then- AW: 29:31 My master's degree. IG: 29:32 Your masters. So tell us, you know, tell us about that journey toward the PhD and what happened? AW: 29:42 Well, actually the job of the Community Council ended- IG: 29:45 Yeah. AW: 29:45 I got a job at the American Jewish Committee. IG: 29:45 okay. AW: 29:45 And I was working with the famous Milton Himmelfarb. I am sure that name does not mean anything to you, but he is one of the editors of Commentary Magazine. IG: 29:55 Oh, wow. AW: 29:56 Commentary Magazine- IG: 29:57 I know about Commentary Magazine. I know. Of course, about Commentary Magazine. AW: 30:03 Well, you know, it is a very conservative magazine. IG: 30:07 Yes. AW: 30:07 So when I was working for him, he was giving me these assignments, and I had to confirm his conservative view of the world, and IG: 30:10 You did not share them? AW: 30:11 I did. I not only did I not share them, I did not agree with his view of the world at all, but I did not tell him that, because he was my boss, right? IG: 30:21 Yes. AW: 30:22 So I worked for him for two years, and I said to myself, what are you going to do with the rest of your life? And that is when I made the decision, “You are always going to be a middle level person unless you go and get your PhD.” IG: 30:34 That is right. In academics, that is right. AW: 30:37 Well, I knew I did not want to teach, but I do teach now. I teach at Mercy College. IG: 30:42 Oh, well, I did not know. AW: 30:42 Excuse me. IG: 30:44 I said, "Oh, wow. I did not know." AW: 30:46 Well, this is my this is a textbook which we are using. IG: 30:50 Oh, wow. Oh, that is so great. So just read it out loud for our listeners. AW: 30:55 The textbook is Family Violence Across the Lifespan: An Intro [Family Violence Across the Lifespan: An Introduction], and it is written by Ola Barnett, Cindy Miller Perrin and Robin Perrin, and it is my first time in my life ever teaching a class. Now, I did lecture when I got to Harlem Hospital and I became head of the department of the Center of Victim Support. IG: 31:18 That is so interesting. AW: 31:20 I did lecture for physicians, I lectured to nurses, I lectured to police officers, but I never actually taught a class from beginning to end on the theme of domestic violence. IG: 31:34 So how did you get interested in that? AW: 31:36 Well, I was working on the hospital Department of Social Work. IG: 31:36 Yes. AW: 31:36 I am the head of domestic violence coordinator. And she resigned. IG: 31:43 Right. AW: 31:44 And she did not know how to look at her data, so she was constantly coming to me to help her analyze her data. So when she left to the director of Department of Social Worker, said to me, I am going to make you a new director of domestic violence. IG: 32:00 Right. AW: 32:01 Because I knew how to work with statistics, but I did not know anything about domestic violence, but I knew from her data- IG: 32:10 Right. AW: 32:10 -what, no- the importance of subject matter. AW: 32:13 But I had never studied it, because I did not have that course on domestic violence, and I was in graduate school, so I took the job and I started reading. You need to know two things. You come of domestic violence coordinator. You have to know the subject matter, and you have to have a feel for what these women have been through. And I also interviewed some men. They were also men. Are also different domestic violence, but much smaller numbers than women. IG: 32:13 Right. IG: 32:36 How did you?- when did you get involved in this? How-how- what were the years that you kind of, that you entered into this field? AW: 32:47 Well, I became the domestic violence coordinator in 1994. IG: 32:56 What was your PhD in, I know that sociology, but what else- AW: 33:00 Well, I got my PhD, I was running for national genetics foundation. So my PhD- IG: 33:01 Where were in? AW: 33:02 In New York City. IG: 33:05 In New York City! AW: 33:08 So my PhD was in the physician recognition of a new specialty, because medical genetics is back in 1970 when I went back to graduate school in 1972 and I started working the national genetics foundation in 1974. IG: 33:24 And just remind us, where is your PhD from? You got your masters in Brown, and your PhD. AW: 33:30 I got my PhD at Columbia. IG: 33:32 I see. So you were at Columbia. What years? AW: 33:37 I was like- well, I did my coursework from 1972 to 1974. I got my PhD in 1979 I got my PhD when I started working the National Genetics Foundation. They knew when I started working there, they needed to have a subject matter from which I could develop my thesis. So I studied the physicians at a GHI hospital. I think GHI provided the funding for my salary, and that is how I got my PhD. IG: 34:13 But you- so-so your PhD was in what analyzing the data of the- AW: 34:23 A hundred patients form the GHI hospital- IG: 34:25 Yes. AW: 34:26 -located in Queens, and I asked them a series of questions of their knowledge of medical mimetics. So is it a study of their knowledge- IG: 34:26 Yeah. AW: 34:35 -their awareness of medical genetics as an important field, their knowledge of genetics. It was their knowledge, their awareness. And there is a third part of it, I cannot remember the third part was. IG: 34:48 Yes. So this was to demonstrate their general level of- AW: 34:56 -understanding. IG: 34:57 of understanding of- AW: 34:58 -emerging field, [crosstalk] IG: 34:59 Of course, of course. AW: 35:00 I had already become a major part of health care- IG: 35:04 I see. AW: 35:05 -for women who are pregnant women-women who are over the age of 35 so it was emerging field with very important, relevant techniques that physicians should know about. IG: 35:16 Yes. AW: 35:17 Even- well today everybody knows about amniocentesis. IG: 35:19 Yes. AW: 35:19 But when I was working on my thesis back in the middle and late (19)70s, so many physicians did not know that much about it all. IG: 35:27 And this is New York City- AW: 35:29 -this is New York City. IG: 35:30 -and this is so you could imagine what the rest of the country. AW: 35:32 And the base- the basic finding of my thesis was the fact that, well, physicians knew very little about mental genetics and had very little understanding of it, and then that realize relevance. IG: 35:44 Right. So were there recommendations that you made in your thesis of how to educate this? AW: 35:53 I do not think I did. IG: 35:55 [crosstalk] populations. AW: 35:56 That was not [crosstalk] AW: 35:57 Well, I did it for 25 years. IG: 35:57 That was not okay. So, tell us about, I am very interested about your work with victims of domestic abuse, and how long you did this. And- IG: 36:07 That is tremendous. And so, I mean, was not it emotionally? I mean, how do you heal- AW: 36:17 You should talk my family. They will say [inaudible] it took a toll on you. IG: 36:20 Yeah. AW: 36:21 When I come, when I come home at night, I had to admit, I was probably did a lot of snapping every family in numbers. You come home and you hear these stories that, [crosstalk] it is called vicarious trauma, traumatization. But I loved working with these abused women because they had such strengths. IG: 36:38 Yeah. AW: 36:39 Um, they have been through so much. IG: 36:40 Yes. AW: 36:40 And yet they were able to open up and tell me about the violence I had experienced. IG: 36:46 Right. AW: 36:47 And you have to have a sense of rapport with these women. IG: 36:50 Right. AW: 36:50 And I did not just work with women who are being physically and emotionally abused. I also work with women who are victims of rape. IG: 36:58 Yeah. AW: 36:58 And at that point the rape do you know about the rape exam? IG: 37:00 Yes. AW: 37:02 Well, the whole process of the rape exam had already been developed, and women would come to the emergency room seeking the rape kits. IG: 37:09 Right. AW: 37:09 So I work with a lot of women who are victims of rape. Now the statistics show, and it is probably very true, most women who are raped are rape in the context of intimacy. They are being raped by their husbands; they are being raped by their boyfriends. They are being raped by people they know. IG: 37:23 Yes. AW: 37:24 It is not the woman who goes to a fraternity party at night. IG: 37:26 Right. AW: 37:27 And ends up being raped. So I was dealing with women who were very traumatized by their experiences. And I also wrote a grant in New York State Crime Victims board, and they gave me a grant, which enabled me to hire three or four social workers, and we developed a center for different support, and we provided therapy at night. IG: 37:45 That is tremendous. That is really, that is, that is tremendous. IG: 37:52 Thank you. IG: 37:52 Yeah, so, I mean, is your work known about in the field of domestic violence and abuse? AW: 38:08 When I retired, I was working at the freedom houses domestic violence shelter, and I was interviewing women and their understanding of their self-confidence. The whole purpose of the study was develop their self-confidence over time. Site, I interviewed them. They came to the shelter. I interviewed them. Shelter stays are only for three months. That is what the funds come from. The no brother Power Act, Violence Against Women Act, which is a law that comes from the New York the United States legislature. So it only pays for three months, and the monies are funneled through the New York state, New York State Department of Health. So I interviewed them when they first got to the shelter. I interviewed them at the end of two months. I interviewed them right before they were being ready for discharge. And I did write a paper, and I presented at two different conferences. IG: 39:00 Okay, so what were the years of that? AW: 39:03 Years of [inaudible] IG: 39:04 Of-of-of-of your paper, and- AW: 39:06 Well, the first paper I gave, I gave in Washington at the future Futures Without Violence. That is the name of the organization. IG: 39:14 In what year? AW: 39:15 2014. IG: 39:18 Okay, so it was quite recent. AW: 39:24 Maybe I do not. Maybe it was 2013. IG: 39:26 Yeah, but it is quite recent. AW: 39:28 And then I gave the same paper I gave at the American Public Health Association. IG: 39:34 At the American what? AW: 39:34 Public health association that was in Chicago. IG: 39:38 So you know your-your work is known of in the community. AW: 39:46 I would say so. IG: 39:46 You would say so. AW: 39:47 I would say so. IG: 39:56 So what-what did you do you know, what did you. I mean, I, I am, I am really fascinated to learn about this and your work with, you know, victims and what-what-what impact do you think that you have had on this constituency overall? AW: 40:18 Well, you know, you cannot change people. IG: 40:20 No. AW: 40:20 You can give them insight. IG: 40:23 Right. AW: 40:23 But in the end, if they are going to change their way of life and move beyond the violence, that is an individual decision. IG: 40:30 Right. AW: 40:31 Every victim has to make on her own or his own. But other people I worked with at Harlem Hospital. IG: 40:38 Right. AW: 40:39 Many of them went on to move away from their abusive relationships and went on to develop relationships that were not abusive. IG: 40:49 Right. AW: 40:50 And I strongly believe it is because of the dialog that I had with them about the fact, and I always say to every victim, that is what I teach in my class, you never accuse the victim of causing the violence. That is what the perpetrator tells them. IG: 41:05 Right. AW: 41:07 I am hitting you because you have aggravated me. IG: 41:09 Right. AW: 41:10 So the first message you have to get across it every victim is the fact that they did not cause the violence. Does not matter what the perpetrator said to them. Does not really matter how they absorb that-that fact that they are the cause of the violence, the victim is never the cause of the violence. And I made that point to every victim I saw. I saw 150 victims a year in Harlem Hospital, and I made the same point of victims I interviewed at Freedom House. The victim did not cause the violence. IG: 41:37 It must be a look, a very liberating idea for them to- AW: 41:41 I am sure it is- IG: 41:42 -absorbed AW: 41:42 -because they have so much inculcated themselves this belief. IG: 41:46 Right. AW: 41:46 They cause the violence. IG: 41:47 Right. AW: 41:48 They never put any blame on the perpetrator. IG: 41:50 Right. AW: 41:51 Blame themselves. I did not do this right; I did not do that right. IG: 41:53 Right. AW: 41:54 There is nothing that a victim can do that justifies the perpetrator being out of control. IG: 42:01 Right. AW: 42:01 The perpetrator is out of control for any number of reasons. First of all, a lot of them are depressed, and they are- also have very low self-esteem, and they tend to be attracted to women who also have low self-esteem, because that makes their-their task of destroying a person so much easier. I am not saying that all women who enter into violent relationships enter low self-esteem, but by time they end it, they certainly do have very low self-esteem. IG: 42:27 Is it oftentimes tied to economic dependence on the- AW: 42:31 Well, that is why a lot of women do not like to leave because their perpetrator does not. Perpetrators do not like them to work. They do not like them to be exposed to the world. So you do not work. I work now. I am bringing in the money. And when I worked at Freedom House, I encourage all of them to get the GEDs. You know that is? IG: 42:51 Yeah, of course I do. AW: 42:53 Because without a college, high school education, there is no job market for you. IG: 42:58 Right. AW: 42:59 So, I encourage all of them to get their GED, not only because they needed to get a job, but they needed for their own understanding of themselves as-as responsible adult human beings. IG: 43:12 Right. Did you see these women over time? Or did you see- I mean, how, how much exposure did you or your program have? AW: 43:21 Well, I usually, I saw many of them only once because they were coming to the hospital identified by doctors and nurses. IG: 43:27 But you did not, so you did not really know the impact that your interaction would have on them over time. AW: 43:35 Well, I only know those who, say, through whom we offered therapy. IG: 43:38 I see. AW: 43:39 I have a grant from New York State, crime [inaudible] support, and we started out often in 12 weeks of therapy. But I realized when I had, when I renewed the grant, that 12 weeks is really not that much time. No so no one that was renewed. I asked for 16 weeks. So those who came to therapy, I had a great deal of contact with, and those who did come, who came to therapy, definitely were able to change their lives. IG: 44:01 But you were not the one conducting the therapy. You ran, [crosstalk] of course, yeah, you ran. You ran that right effort. I mean, how do you feel doing that work in in hindsight, do you feel- AW: 44:21 I am glad, and the board, who's Director department associate I am glad she made me the domestic violence coordinator. AW: 44:28 Obviously, when I first started doing, I did not know that much about domestic violence, but I just had a feel what these women were going through, and to be a good domestic violence coordinator, even without having the knowledge, you have to have a feel for your clients. IG: 44:28 Right. IG: 44:47 Right. AW: 44:48 And I definitely had that feeling. IG: 44:50 Yeah. AW: 44:50 And I was obviously able to convey it. IG: 44:53 Right. Do you think that most of the people that you saw were, you know a segment of the population that suffers from domestic abuse because sort of, you know, the- you mentioned that a lot of the women did not have GED, but you know, oftentimes women who have who are more educated and come from maybe more well to do families may also be victims, but you-you probably did not see that population? AW: 45:26 I did have a certain number of not only to have certain number of middle-class clients, I had a certain number of middle-class clients who were college educated, and they also were victims. IG: 45:36 Did they have sort of the same scenario as in their homes, as the women from poor families? AW: 45:46 Yes. IG: 45:46 They have the same so their husbands sort of kept them isolated from the world. AW: 45:51 Yes. IG: 45:51 Yes. AW: 45:52 Yeah. IG: 45:52 And they ranged in ages. AW: 45:55 Well, most of them were in their 20s, 30s, and then for [crosstalk] 40s. IG: 46:02 So, tell us, you know, this is really-really valuable work that you have done in your life, and now you are teaching a course at Mercy College. And you know, who are your students there? AW: 46:19 A lot of them are going for a degree mental health counselor. IG: 46:22 I see, I see. AW: 46:23 So and I talked about that my cases, I asked them to expand on their own cases. IG: 46:28 Right. AW: 46:29 Because I am not just teaching the theory of family violence, I am trying to get their understanding- IG: 46:36 Right. AW: 46:37 -the case of they have seen- IG: 46:38 Right. AW: 46:39 -from-from the perspective of the points textbook is making, and from my own perspective, having worked with no 150 cases a year for over 20 years, and I also bring in the cases that I had at Freedom House, if I asked them to tell me about their cases, also. IG: 46:57 Right. AW: 46:57 Because I want you know how their cases relate to what the theory says. IG: 47:04 Right. And there is no indication of you letting up on this class? AW: 47:10 No-no. I am going to continue teaching it. IG: 47:14 That is wonderful. That is wonderful. So you know, just, let us, let us move to the past a little bit. And I just wanted to know, you know, so, when did you meet your husband? And you know, where did you meet your husband? AW: 47:33 I have a friend, Lenny Bergman. IG: 47:35 Right. AW: 47:35 She was dating Joe Friedman. IG: 47:37 Yeah. AW: 47:38 And my husband was friendly with- was very close with Joe Friedman. I was very close with Laney. IG: 47:44 Right. AW: 47:44 So they said, why do not you come for Friday night dinner. IG: 47:45 Right. AW: 47:45 And you can meet Arnold Weintraub. I said, I am not really interested. IG: 47:52 Yeah. AW: 47:53 And he said the same thing to Joe. So, Laney said to me, you are not going to marry the guy- IG: 47:58 Yeah. AW: 47:59 -just come and meet him for dinner. IG: 48:01 Right. AW: 48:01 So on the assumption I did not have to marry him, I met her for dinner. IG: 48:05 Right. AW: 48:06 And I was going to a synagogue on the west side. It must have come up in course the conversation. So then the following this Saturday, after the Friday night dinner, he showed up my synagogue. IG: 48:17 This is sweet. That is really nice. AW: 48:19 Well, I totally ignored him. IG: 48:21 Yeah. AW: 48:22 I do not know why my daughter says me to this day, "Why did you ignore dad so much." I do not know why I ignored him. I just ignored him. But he called me up anyway for a date. IG: 48:32 That is very lovely. AW: 48:33 And when we hit- our first date was April 21 1972 and so every April 21 we always celebrate everyone having and he and he proposed a year later. IG: 48:47 Yeah. AW: 48:48 April, things like April 22. IG: 48:50 That is very, that is very sweet. AW: 48:52 So, two people really wanted me and he said, his joke, I am not innocent. Joe said, you know, you are not going to marry her. So, I mean, some people were not going to marry each other. He met- we fell in love. IG: 49:03 It took the pressure off of you, you know. AW: 49:05 That is true, that is true. IG: 49:06 That is, that is, I think that that made things more possible. So also, you know, going back, so what-what were you like? I mean, this is 1972 you were, you know a young woman who was very kind of on a, on a career track to an academic career in sociology. How do you think that you know your people of for example, of the time during that time, remembered you and you know, how do you think that your classmates at Harpur College would remember you, you know, this is- AW: 49:44 I think, well, my daughter says, Mom, "You are quiet and you are very serious." She is right. I am quiet and I am serious. IG: 49:52 Yeah. AW: 49:53 But when I have something to say, I have no trouble-trouble getting it out. AW: 49:57 Right. Right. AW: 49:58 So I say, Rebecca all the time. I am. Be quiet, but I am not a pushover. IG: 50:03 No. AW: 50:03 I have my ideas, and if I am in a room when people express themselves, I either agree with them and I tell them why, or I disagree with them, I also tell them why. So why I am quiet. I am not, I am no, I am not a wallflower, right? But I also, I was very quiet in high school, and I was very quiet in college. I am a quiet person. IG: 50:24 You are a quiet person, I think, with a real capacity for taking people in, right? Because you- yeah- AW: 50:34 I also chair my synagogues Israel committee now. IG: 50:37 Yes. AW: 50:38 We just had a meeting last night, so I am able to take on leadership capacities, and I think I do it very well. IG: 50:46 Tell us about that leadership capacity outside of your role with victims of domestic abuse. AW: 50:56 Well, I am very active in my synagogue. IG: 50:56 Right. AW: 50:56 But I am particularly active in Israel committee. I am the chairperson. IG: 51:01 So what do you do? What do you- AW: 51:03 Run weekly me- we run monthly meetings, and we plant programs throughout the year. IG: 51:07 Yeah. AW: 51:08 And I have to get the speakers, and I have to know, getting the orientation of my- there is a reconstruction in synagogue. So I have to [inaudible] a little bit [inaudible] reconstruction is [inaudible] all of that. So, when they come, they prepare, they know what they are meaning. We are also very warm congregation. We do a lot of singing. My husband plays a piano services, so I give him some idea--know what kind of congregation you are. We are also very intellectual congregation. IG: 51:35 Right. AW: 51:36 I am not the only PhD in the congregation. IG: 51:38 Yeah. AW: 51:41 So and I had- we, and I developed the speakers based on what the interests are of the committee. Meanwhile, we pick somebody out of the blue, I am right in the committee. We discussed now what-what our interests are for the year, and we develop our programs based on the interest of the committee and what we think will interest the congregation. IG: 51:59 Right. AW: 51:59 And then we line up our speakers. IG: 52:01 Right. So does your-your congregation, do any outreach or philanthropy work with Israel or the you know, New York community does- AW: 52:16 Well, we are not a fundraising. IG: 52:17 You are not a- Yeah. AW: 52:18 I mean the people who come speak to us, I always say, bring your literature. IG: 52:24 Right. AW: 52:24 People want to give and give on their own. IG: 52:26 Right. AW: 52:26 But we do not do active fundraising. IG: 52:28 You do not do- AW: 52:28 -for Israel. IG: 52:29 Yeah. AW: 52:29 I myself give money to UJA Federation. IG: 52:33 Right. AW: 52:34 I also give money to the new Israel fund. IG: 52:36 Uh huh. AW: 52:38 The new Israel did not know anything about the new Israel fund? IG: 52:40 No, but I know about the UGA. AW: 52:41 Well, new the new Israel fund believes the importance having a binational state, and they also work very closely with the Israeli Arab population. So, and I feel me for really the importance of a two-state solution. So, I do give my money to us, to um New Israel fund. IG: 53:01 Right. AW: 53:01 But I also give the Federation, UGA Federation, because I play very important role in aiding the lower—there is, there is three categories, low-income Jews in New York City, Russians, Russian Jews, who came over in the (19)70s and (19)80s. My husband actually worked for highest- IG: 53:21 I know that, yeah. AW: 53:22 And you work for- IG: 53:22 a lot of, a lot of parents of my friends came through that- AW: 53:26 We also worked in NYANA. Highest brought them over- IG: 53:29 Yes, I know, NYANA. AW: 53:31 -provided the services. IG: 53:33 yeah. AW: 53:33 So a lot of the Russians made- IG: 53:34 In the 80s. AW: 53:35 -a larger portion New York City poor Jews. IG: 53:39 Yeah. AW: 53:39 And the Hasidim also. IG: 53:40 Right. AW: 53:41 Because they are very large families and they have middle class jobs. IG: 53:46 Right. AW: 53:47 And the third category is the [inaudible], because they have not been able to know they did not have the kinds of jobs that provide them with pensions. IG: 54:05 Of course. Or they did not have jobs, or- AW: 54:08 A lot of them are living- I did that job for just the Jews Association, service of the agent. Most of them are living on Social Security. IG: 54:16 That is right, that is right. AW: 54:18 Some that does not get you very far, does it? Not- IG: 54:20 It does not. AW: 54:21 Especially living in New York City, governments are so high. So I do not get talking about this. IG: 54:29 About-about outreach and philanthropy that you do. AW: 54:32 I am also very active in the Social Action Committee--my husband, I run a program every at the synagogue called Hunger Shabbat. IG: 54:38 What is that? AW: 54:39 Well, we talk about the number of people in New York City who are living below the poverty line. And West Side Campaign Against Hunger is a food- is a it is a supermarket right for people who are living below the poverty line. And they provide wonderful services. They also have a van that goes up the Washington Heights because there so many people living below the poverty line in Washington Heights, and so we run Hunger Shabbat usually have a speaker, someone from West Side Campaign Against Hunger, who talks about the-the level of poverty in New York City, and how was they called themselves whisker and how was good, tries to address that through their through their supermarket approach, and they have an annual dinner, which my husband, I go to every year. I really- It means a great deal to me to support people who do not have the kinds of money that you really need to live on, to live on in the city, this is probably one of the most expensive cities in the world. IG: 55:39 Yes, can I agree. AW: 55:43 And then there are people who come here. We a lot of immigrants who come here. IG: 55:47 That is wonderful. AW: 55:47 So I am very active on our social committee. I am also part of it is called Synagogue Coalition for Refugee and Immigrant cooperation. IG: 55:47 Right. IG: 55:47 Right. AW: 55:47 We know they come from South America. They are coming for because of being victimized by the gangs in Honduras in Nicaragua and Colombia, sort of coming here to seek safety. We also many refugees coming from Africa. [inaudible] hospital- There are a number of refugees that are from-from Africa, and of course, we have the Syrian problem. AW: 56:08 We are actually meeting next Thursday, and we develop all kinds of programs to get the Jewish community on board in terms of helping the Syrians. AW: 56:09 That is tremendous. That is wonderful. AW: 56:40 I enjoy. IG: 56:41 Yeah, I mean, it is a meaningful life. It is very it is a meaningful life. AW: 56:45 My daughter says all the time, "Mom, you have such a good heart." IG: 56:48 Yeah. AW: 56:48 And I do. Where I got it from? My parents were very much involved in the Jewish community and giving. So I know I got the broader strokes from my parents, but how I am playing it out in New York City, it is all coming from me. IG: 57:05 It is all coming from you, yeah, and the people that have fed that right, that that that give that emotion, that kind of disposition, to give up yourself, because there must have been, you know, I mean, it is, it is, you probably had a lot of grateful people that you, that you, that you saw, you know, throughout your life, I mean, the people that you were helping. So, there is sort of a gratitude that is feeding that- AW: 57:40 That is true, that is true, right. AW: 57:40 That is true. IG: 57:40 -that impulse. IG: 57:44 Okay, well, you know I- AW: 57:49 You know what, let us eat, let us have some snacks. Okay. IG: 57:52 Okay, you know what, I have to really leave in like five minutes. AW: 57:58 Okay. IG: 57:59 But I want to still ask you just some concluding questions--so you know you have answered a lot of the questions that I-I set out to ask. I know how you spend your time. Do you have any kind of recreational things that you do outside of your community work and your teaching? AW: 58:26 Well, I live abroad in Central Park. No. So soon, another month, when it really warms up, I am going to start my jogging again. Oh, good. I love jogging. AW: 58:35 Yeah. AW: 58:36 It is, it is when I fit and I jog around the reservoir. It is like a little over a mile, right? And when I get back to this apartment, I feel so revitalized. AW: 58:47 Yeah, I could imagine. AW: 58:48 Do you jog? IG: 58:49 I-I-I run on the treadmill. It is not my favorite thing to do. I swim. AW: 58:55 Oh, I love swimming also. IG: 58:57 I-I-I swim in the Binghamton pool, and I do yoga. I mean, I been a yoga devotee for the last [crosstalk] AW: 59:08 Swimming is one of my two favorite sports activities. Are all spring, summer time? IG: 59:14 Right. AW: 59:14 Yeah, but you cannot swim in the wintertime. And I do not like indoor pools. I cannot stand the smell of chlorine. IG: 59:20 Well I swim in the actually, the Binghamton pool is extraordinary because it does not really smell of chlorine. So have you been back to Binghamton? AW: 59:30 No, I have not. I went back my- I had a friend who lived in Binghamton. IG: 59:37 Oh really. Well, you should come to visit us. You know when you are whenever you visit your friends, we would be very happy to introduce you to the Dean of Libraries, who is very forward thinking, and he has big visions AW: 59:56 [inaudible] still the same place? IG: 59:58 Still the same place. I. AW: 59:59 Okay. IG: 1:00:00 But it is expanded. AW: 1:00:01 I am sure it has. IG: 1:00:03 Now the- there are, there is not just one Binghamton library. There are four libraries. IG: 1:00:10 We call- because there is a science library on campus. There is a downtown, a smaller downtown library for the student community that lives downtown. And now we are opening a school of nursing [crosstalk]. So, there is, there is this [crosstalk] but they are now transferred to a new campus in Johnson City. AW: 1:00:10 Why? AW: 1:00:38 Where? IG: 1:00:38 Johnson City. AW: 1:00:39 Oh right, Johnson City was just [inaudible] of Binghamton. IG: 1:00:42 So, there are four libraries, and there are different programs that we do for-for example, you know, employing low-income students to learn to work in the library and learn, you know, technology and research skills while they are doing it. But let us, let us conclude this interview asking you about, you know, what are the most important lessons that you have learned in life that you would like to share to with you know, current and future students listening to this [crosstalk] AW: 1:01:18 I honestly, most important part of anyone's life is first of all getting a college education, because it broadens your understanding of the world. You begin to realize it is not just about me, but you begin to realize that there is a whole world out there beyond yourself with different values you learn about different cultures, and it just expands your understanding of the world. So I would say to anybody and everybody, how important is- [squeaky door] Hi. This is my husband. Amy's husband 1:01:49 How are you? So, you found it. [squeaky door] I am going to head over to the [inaudible] now. AW: 1:01:55 This is my warm ass going husband. [crosstalk] IG: 1:01:59 We have learned a lot about you. Amy's husband 1:02:01 You have? IG: 1:02:02 Yes. Amy's husband 1:02:02 Yeah, you think it is all true. IG: 1:02:05 No. So your wife is concluding her interview with me and telling us what life lessons were the most important that she learned in her career and in her life that she would like to share with this current generation of students and future generations who are listening to the tapes. [crosstalk] Yes. AW: 1:02:38 I would say to anyone, everyone. I know college educations cost a lot. IG: 1:02:42 Yeah. AW: 1:02:44 But if-if there is a famous founder of Israel theater, Herzl [Theodor Herzl] said, if you dream it in well, if it is if you dream it, "If you will, it is no dream." IG: 1:02:57 Repeat it. AW: 1:02:58 If you will, it- IG: 1:02:59 Yes. AW: 1:02:59 It is no dream. IG: 1:03:01 Yes. AW: 1:03:02 So if you have the intellectual capacity to get a college education, I know that New York State, you can earn up- your parents can earn up $220,000 and you still can get an education for free if you go to a school in New York State, and if you go to one of the SUNY schools. So I would urge everyone, anyone and everyone, to get a college education, because just broaden your understanding of the world. And I am glad I got a college education, and I am glad I got it at Harper College. IG: 1:03:37 Wonderful. Thank you so much. AW: 1:03:39 You are very welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Amy Weintraub Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni working with victims of domestic violence/sexual assault; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weintraub, Amy ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Amy Weintraub, PhD, led the Center for Victim Support at Harlem Hospital Center for 25 years and assessed patients with a history of domestic violence and sexual assault. She currently teaches courses on these subjects at Mercy College. She was a sociology major at Harpur College. She was a National Institute of Mental Health Fellow. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Amy Weintraub.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-09 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 63:41 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/db07d2a3541c28677edb4bffcdcffe75.mp3 2a4a5b8141094ebfb7f9fa67a87824f2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Andrew Grant Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Dr. Andrew Grant is a retired Assistant VP for Institutional Advancement at Hebrew Union College in NYC. He worked as a disc jockey at WHRW-FM. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Hebrew Union College; Harpur College – Alumni living in Suffolk County, Long Island Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Hebrew Union College; Harpur College – Alumni living in Suffolk County, Long Island Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Andrew Grant Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 14 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Where are you, if I may ask? Are you at home or in your office? AG: 00:04 I do not have an office. I am retired. IG: 00:06 Oh! AG: 00:07 On January 2. IG: 00:09 Could you- well, congratulations on your retirement. We just want to make you a little bit louder. I am- Third speaker 00:15 Okay. This is, I think, the loudest. IG: 00:19 That is the loudest it can go? IG: 00:20 do I need to do that? Or you do that? Yeah, it does. It does not get louder, yeah, can you? Can you do it from your end? Dr, Chris, AG: 00:31 I do not think so. I think my volume control is only- my machine, Third speaker 00:37 Yeah. AG: 00:37 Is that better, or no? IG: 00:40 I think so. I think so, okay, okay, so why do not we begin, um- AG: 00:48 [inaudible] you need to move a little bit more together so I can see. IG: 00:54 Okay-okay, so we are not- Third speaker 00:58 Okay, okay, I will just- IG: 01:00 I am just looking through my notes. That is, that is why I moved away. Okay, so why do not we begin with you identifying yourself when you were born, what you do and when you went to Binghamton, AG: 01:27 What was the last one? IG: 01:29 When you went to Binghamton? Or we could ask that later. AG: 01:34 Okay. My name is Andrew grant. I was born in November of 1946. I went to Binghamton. I graduated in 1967. IG: 01:46 Okay, very good. So where did you grow up? AG: 01:51 In Manhattan and the Bronx. IG: 01:54 Oh, may I ask where in Manhattan? AG: 01:58 In Washington Heights. IG: 01:59 Oh, I lived in Washington Heights. AG: 02:02 Where? IG: 02:04 By Fort Tryon Park. AG: 02:05 Yeah, that is where I lived. IG: 02:07 Okay, 1/80 and Fort Washington Avenue in probably the most beautiful apartment building and apartment that I have ever lived in. It was beautiful, Art Deco. AG: 02:24 Yeah, I was, we were on 1/90 and Hillside. Speaker 1 02:27 Okay, AG: 02:27 At the lower at the lower end of the park, my sister actually still has an apartment up there. IG: 02:31 Oh! Well, um, yeah, I am familiar with that area very well, and a lot of my Russian emigre friends lived there. There was a big Russian community in Washington Heights, but that is, that is after your time. AG: 02:52 That is after my time. My time was, it was many Holocaust survivors, as-as-as was my family. IG: 03:02 Yeah, okay. These were, these were refuseniks who came to the US in the late (19)70s and early (19)80s. A lot of- AG: 03:15 My parents. My parents came from Germany in 1940. IG: 03:18 Okay-okay, all right, so and who were your parents? AG: 03:25 Who were they? Who were my- the names? IG: 03:27 What you can tell us their names, what did they do? What was their occupation? Where were they from? You mentioned this briefly. They were from Germany. They came in 1940. What did they do in Germany? What did they do in the United States? What was their occupation? AG: 03:47 My father, my father had a- his family had a textile company, and when he came to the States, he became a textile salesman. My mother was a homemaker. IG: 03:59 Okay, all right. And did they- did your parents go to college? IG: 04:06 No. IG: 04:07 Yeah. And what were their- 04:09 -and they did not pick it up when they got here. IG: 04:12 I see what were their expectations for you in terms of college? Was education valued in your family? AG: 04:20 It was they expected that I would go to college, and I did. IG: 04:31 So can you elaborate a little bit? Were they supportive of your- I mean, did they help you study? Did they help you choose your college, or were they, yeah- Speaker 2 04:46 It was, it was not a- an issue- was always assumed that it would go to college and we- they, you know, it was very different in those days. I just- my daughter just graduated from Colby, and the process of getting her situated in the school that she wanted to go with all the visits and the trips was very different. We went to visit Binghamton. I saw it. I do not think I visited any other schools. I chose it for a number of reasons. It had a good reputation. It was a state school. It was inexpensive. I had a regional scholarship, so it became less expensive, and there was not as much thought about it when I went to school, certainly as when my daughter weighed her options for which school she wanted to go to. IG: 05:52 Okay, I-I-I- that was also the experience, my experience versus my daughter's, I think a lot more thought went into her college selection. So what was your experience at Harpur College? AG: 06:18 It was- IG: 06:19 Yeah. AG: 06:20 I guess the best word I could use is bland. IG: 06:23 Bland. AG: 06:24 It was bland. It was, it was- I was not, you know, there was a lot going on in the (19)60s. I was not much of an activist. It was, it was a question of getting through my studies. I was not a superior student by any means my academic success came much later on, when I, when I proceeded, pursued my doctorate. I had a small group of friends and was not very much involved. I was involved with the radio station, so that was my extracurricular activity. And it was really a question of trying to find myself at that time. IG: 07:05 Well, that is, I mean, these are all very interesting points, so maybe let us start with the most interesting to you, which was the radio station. Tell us about that. AG: 07:19 It was, well, I was, I was looking for an extracurricular opportunity there as and all of the clubs and all of the other extracurricular activities, there was, you know, I guess there was a fair, or whatever it was they displayed. And it was, it was, I had never done that before. And it was, it was an interesting group of people, and we all got our FCC licenses, and that was where I spent most of the- my time that was not in class and in the library. IG: 07:53 So the radio station was conducted from the library, the physical space? AG: 07:58 No-no, It was conducted- IG: 08:00 Oh, I see I misunderstood. AG: 08:03 I was either in class or in the library study- IG: 08:05 I see, I see I misunderstood. Okay, so I would like you to talk more about the radio station. Where was it located? AG: 08:15 I think it was in the student center, if I remember correctly. And we had a- in those days was it was, I think while I was there, they expanded it, they bought a much more powerful transmitter, and I had many of my friends that I was close with and I met through the through the radio station. Third speaker 08:45 Wait, what was it called? AG: 08:47 WHRW. Third speaker 08:49 Because it is still continuing, and I still listen. They play great music. New Age, different- IG: 09:00 Oh. Third speaker 09:00 Yeah, they do. I even listen some Turkish music there. IG: 09:04 Oh wow, that is incredible. Third speaker 09:06 Yes. AG: 09:09 They still have reunions. I know that I did not go to my reunion. I went back to Binghamton a few years after I graduated, and I got lost on the campus, and that was the last time I went back. AG: 09:20 I graduated in (19)67 maybe (19)71-(19)72. [crosstalk] you have to remember, if you look at an aerial photograph of the campus, there is a kidney shaped drive that goes around in the middle. That is all there was. And in those days, that kidney shaped drive that went around a number of the buildings, but that was the entire campus at that time, and then it expanded tremendously. IG: 09:22 When was that? IG: 09:55 Hmm. Yeah, that that is our impression from speaking with other graduates from-from this time, from the (19)60s, that it was kind of a, you know, a smaller, much smaller version um-um. of-of- it was, it was actually a different-different-different type of campus. It was very kind of bare bones. But returning to the- excuse me. AG: 10:27 It was tiny. IG: 10:28 It was tiny. But returning, I am really curious about the radio station. What role did you play? Was-was the- was it a sound studio? I mean, how- what-what was the equipment that you used? AG: 10:42 I did not hear the question, was it a, what type of studio? IG: 10:48 Sound studio, sound studio. AG: 10:51 inaudible] It was- there was a, there was an office, and there was a, there was a- an on-air studio with offices, you know, an office around it, and wherever the trend, the transmitter was someplace else. And we- I did some of the, some administrative activities we all managed, helped manage it, and I did a little bit of on air announcing. IG: 11:29 What kind of music did you play? What kind of talk shows did you have, if any? AG: 11:35 [inaudible] talk shows. I did some-some music, some-some popular, current music and of the day. IG: 11:43 So what, what was, you know, some of the- AG: 11:46 Easy listening kind of stuff. IG: 11:47 I see. It was, is that? So, what role did you have? Did you decide on, on what music was? Went on air? AG: 11:58 Yeah, for those, for those few shows, and I was what they call the traffic manager, and now we are talking 50 years ago, so you are testing my memory. IG: 12:09 I am. [laughs] AG: 12:11 More than 50 years ago. IG: 12:13 More than 50 years ago. Okay, so it was, it was really easy listening. There were no, there were no, there was not much reporting. Or did you do any reporting? AG: 12:27 A little bit, we did a little bit of news. I think I filled in one night for-for somebody who, who did the news, who was not able to make his show. So I was, I was, I was a fill in for that night. IG: 12:39 Was the news local, or was it national? AG: 12:44 It was national., IG: 12:45 it was national. AG: 12:46 National. Yeah. IG: 12:47 So- AG: 12:49 We had a UPI ticker. So we read the news from the UPI ticker that came in. We had a subscription to that. It was, it was a fairly well supported function. IG: 13:04 How many were you? AG: 13:08 Oh, I would not begin to try to remember that well. IG: 13:12 Approximately. Was-was it 10? Was it two? Was it 100? AG: 13:19 I would say that maybe involved in the in the station at that time, maybe there, there were 20 people. IG: 13:24 I see. So, you, you do not remember what the news of the day was. What were the important discussions that were taking place during those years? Do- AG: 13:37 Well, I was it was the Vietnam War, obviously. Was that- was this, the 67 war, these- in Israel was development of the State of Israel, the war. Those are the ones that that stand up. IG: 13:58 Yeah, do you remember what you know, position, politically, the radio talk show hosts would take of the war. Were they- were you just neutrally reporting events? Or- AG: 14:18 I do not remember. IG: 14:19 You do not remember. AG: 14:20 I would assume it was, it was an anti-war stance because of who we were, but I cannot conjure that out of my memory. IG: 14:32 Right. That is understandable. So how many years did you spend on the radio? Was it your entire college career, or...? [crosstalk] AG: 14:50 My college career was only three years, because I took advantage of the trimester system, I went, I went two summers, I should have graduated in (19)68. I graduated from high school in (19)64 but I went two summers and made up a full year that way. IG: 15:10 That is pretty intense. AG: 15:12 It was a mistake. IG: 15:14 Yeah. So what was, what were your academics like? What did you study? What was your major? AG: 15:23 Major was political science. I intended to go to law school. I went- had a year of law school, and then I would have been drafted. So at that time, there was- we were looking, everybody was looking for an option, and I became a New York City school teacher. IG: 15:43 Oh. AG: 15:44 I was in, I was in law school, and my mother called me up, and she said she and my friend's mother had gone down to the Board of Ed, and that they, they had, there was a teacher shortage, and they-they had a program which was called manpower channeling, so anybody became a teacher got a deferment. I spent, I think was five or six years teaching in elementary school, and I was already pursuing my-my doctorate at that time in public administration at NYU. What happened with that program is the city bought courses in all the local universities, and they paid for 12 credits for anybody who was accepted in that program was fairly competitive, as you can imagine, because-because it was all guys who were looking for an alternative to the draft. So I completed, they gave me 12 credits at NYU. I completed a master's in an education in 1970 and then I was very much interested in urban planning and enrolled in the- what is now the Wagner school for public service. Wagner that time known as the graduate school for public administration, and I was in that master's program for maybe a year or two, and they came out with a PhD MUP option, which is what I eventually graduated from. IG: 17:38 Interesting. So while you were teaching, where did you teach? Which neighborhood? AG: 17:45 In Marble Hill, in the Bronx. IG: 17:46 In the what? Excuse me. AG: 17:48 Marble Hill in the Bronx. IG: 17:50 Oh, I know where that is- a beautiful museum. So returning to Harpur College, how- did-did- Was there any- do you remember any faculty at Harpur that made an impression on you? AG: 18:12 Yeah, I remember, I- as a political science major. I was- I took many of the political science courses I but I the one that stands out most was an English teacher by the name of Sheldon Grebstein, who I eventually met later on he became the president of SUNY Purchase for a while since retired, but I was there, and I lived close by to that campus. I had a membership to their swimming pool, and I had met him before I was a senior, and I took his poetry clothes- course. There was also a political science professor by the name of Blair Ewing, who left there, whom I remembered because I was accused of having stolen his final exam. IG: 19:12 And did you, did you? AG: 19:17 I did not. AG: 19:18 It was a, it was quite a, quite a traumatic- I was a very naive young man, and I had a- one of the best final exam schedules I ever had. It was a dream schedule. I was done on Wednesday, and I had a date in New York to see one of the other students at Harpur's, to go to Peter Paul and Mary concert. And I was home for a day, and I get a call from the Dean, and they say, "You have been implicated in a cheating scandal. You have been accused of having stolen Professor Ewing's final exam." "What-what are you? No, they did not tell me that." They just said that I had been implicated in a cheating scandal, and they wanted me to come back. So, I said, I am not coming back. I did not do anything. We will deal with it when I get back after semester break, so the phone goes back and forth and back and forth, and they got my attention when they told me I could have an attorney present. IG: 19:18 You did not. [laughs] IG: 20:31 That you could what? AG: 20:34 That I could have an attorney present. IG: 20:38 Oh-oh, wow, wow, that is serious. AG: 20:41 That was serious. So, I said to the dean, "Give me the benefit of the doubt and assume that I have no idea what you are talking about," which I did not, "and tell me what I have been accused of, or I will not come back. Either give me some details," I said. They told me that I was holding up the entire classes grades. Remember very well it was, it was Blair Ewing's course in totalitarians, comparative totalitarian systems. And I said, you tell me "Why you think I did something, and then I will come back." So they said that I had been accused of having stolen an exam. I had broken into his office and stolen exam. And then I sort of started remembering I had spoken to a friend of mine who actually was the general manager of the radio station, and I had spoken to him previously, and he had, like most students do, give me the details of this professor's previous exams, and he never changed his exams, so the questions were familiar. And I called him up and I said, I this is what is going on. He was still on campus because he was, he was involved in some activities that that he needed to be there for. And I said, "Look, I do not want a character reference. I want you to write a letter to the dean and tell her detail exactly what you told me without any without any value judgment." So this also happened to me, my first plane flight ever. I get back up to campus, I go into the dean's office. Ewing is sitting there. First words he said to me. And I- you can remember, you can imagine how-how prominent this is in my memory, because I remember it exactly. 50,52, 53, years later, he looked at me said, "Mr. Grant, I do not think you cheated. You should have done better." IG: 22:59 What an excellent response. AG: 23:01 I said, "What did I get?" He said, "You got to be on the exam." So, I sit down, and there is a young woman who is sitting there, and I recognized her as a student in the class, and then I remembered that I had met her in the in the snack bar just before the exam, and I saw her studying for the exam, and I said to her, "Well, you, you should study these things, and this is going to be the-the format of the of the exam." So I was talking to her, she reported me for having stolen test. IG: 23:34 How terrible. Third speaker 23:35 Oh my god. IG: 23:36 How terrible. How terrible. AG: 23:38 She thought she had missed out on something. So, I said to them, first of all, you had the letter from-from Joe Breast who was the, who was the general manager of the radio station. His main name may be familiar with Columbia, if you were going through the records of those days, who he and I graduated again, look to the data. I said, "Is it considered absolute academic dishonesty to research previous exams?" They said, "Absolutely not." I said, "Is it my fault?" And I looked at him "that you never change your exam questions." And so they got a chuckle out of that. And then this student looked at me, and she said, "But you knew the exact format of the exam," and I said to her, "As would you had you not cut the class where he gave that to us in class?" IG: 24:28 I am sorry. As- what did you tell her? AG: 24:31 She-she had cut the class where he gave us the format. IG: 24:35 I see. I see. I see. I see. I see. Oh, how terrible. AG: 24:41 I said "Was there ever any evidence of your office having broken into it that somebody had taken your exam?" "No-no-no." I looked at them and said, "So, what am I doing here?" And they looked at me and they said, "Well, there was a good faith accusation, and we had to follow up." So, they paid all of my expenses and sent me on my way, and the dean looked at me, and she said, "Next time, do not be so forthcoming with information for somebody else." IG: 25:13 What was the good faith student reprimanded? AG: 25:18 Again, I never saw her again. She just she vanished from campus. I think she was embarrassed. I do not think they reprimanded her, because she felt that she had enough information to-to make that good faith accusation. But she-she was the kind of student who cut a lot of the classes and all the and he had given us a great deal of information about the exam, so that was kind of one of the highlights of my college experience. It was not a pleasant one, but it came out okay, but I did not realize in my naivete how close I was to being expelled. IG: 25:56 But what I mean, it is just, it is awful. It is an awful experience that-that you know, reminds me of, of the time of Stalin, where, you know, neighbors would denounce each other. You know, but- AG: 26:16 Certainly, the case Nazi Germany for my parents. IG: 26:18 Yeah-yeah. Yes-yes. I mean, it is very, it is very similar, and but it must have been a really formative experience as well. Do you, do you- how do you think that that- I mean, it was a shock, probably to the system, and how did- what-what impact did it have on you? AG: 26:38 It was, it was, really, was not a shock. Because I-I believe I did not do anything so there was nothing, there was nothing. There could be no consequences, because I did not do anything which is stupid. I become much more circumspect in terms of information I give at the people and what you know, what I say, I felt I looked at them and I said, we could have done this on the phone. IG: 27:06 Yeah. AG: 27:08 If there was no evidence of any breach, we could have done it on the phone and-and have saved ourselves all of this time, expense and-and stress, [crosstalk] much more cautious person. I am- I certainly have disabused myself of the notion that-that being innocent protects you so that those- that was, that was, in fact, a formative experience. Third speaker 27:39 When did that happen? Were you a sophomore, freshman? Would- AG: 27:43 I think it was a sophomore. AG: 27:45 No. IG: 27:45 No, it is okay. It is all right. IG: 27:45 Do you remember the Dean's name? AG: 27:52 I remember the professor's name. He certainly can. IG: 27:55 Yeah. AG: 27:55 I am sure that is in the annals someplace. IG: 27:58 Well, so you were a sophomore, you returned for your junior year? What did your friends say about this incident? Do you remember? AG: 28:08 They just shook their heads. I said, you know this thing, it was, it was just, it was just, you know, kind of bureaucratic stupidity. If they told me what they needed to know on the phone I would have, it would have jogged my memory, and I was about this. I do not remember her name anymore. I said I had a conver- [his phone rings] Hold one second. Okay. IG: 28:34 Okay. AG: 28:35 That was my-my cell phone. My cell phone goes through my computer, so. IG: 28:44 I see, I see, okay, so, um, how do you think- AG: 28:51 I tried to close because it is if I, if I disconnect by accident, I will call you back. IG: 28:58 All right, that is fine, sure. That is fine, but you still have a little bit of time. AG: 29:04 Yeah, we are good. Okay, good. I close it and you are still there. IG: 29:08 Okay, very good. So how do you think your classmates remember you, if they were to tell me, those-those who remember, and those, for example, those you worked with on the radio? How would they describe you? AG: 29:28 Not sure I think they would describe me as that is hard to put-put into words that they were required to describe me as, you know, nice guy, not a, not a not a great student, not somebody who was, who was very involved and in any kind of political activity or any kind of activism, somebody who was, you know, we were kind of just there and good friend, but I have not really kept in touch with anybody from-from Binghamton at all. IG: 30:13 You have not? AG: 30:15 I have not. IG: 30:15 You have not. AG: 30:18 I tend not to do that. I tend to move on from one-one experience to the next very small circle of friends from, you know, different-different stages of my life. What is, what is amusing at-at this point is I have recently, become through Facebook, got connected with a group of friends from high school. I have, I have a distant cousin who I have been friendly with, and I was on his Facebook page, and there was a friend of his who looked familiar. His name was familiar. And I wrote him. I said, "Are you the same David who went to Clinton High School?" And he said, "Yes," and we had put together. There are five, five couples who all went to high school together, except my cousin. My cousin did not go to high school with me, but he met many of my high school friends at City College, where he went. So we now have a group of five couples who we meet every three or four months, and we go out to dinner, to a theater, to a Broadway production. And that predates. That is certainly from, from that era. IG: 31:46 That is, that is very nice. I wonder if I know of other couples who from Binghamton who see each other annually. They have reunions in different parts of the Northeast. So just tell me a little bit about campus life. You know, the majority of students were like you from New York City or Long Island. And then there were some students from upstate New York. Did you notice differences between these you know, city-city folk and townies, they were called, I think. AG: 32:33 I remember one, one of my one of my friends, was he was convinced that Jews had horns. That is how he grew up and-and his exposure to a lot of the New York students and a lot of the Jewish students was-was a kind of an eye opener for him. So yeah, we found a lot of, a lot of the upstate students a little bit provincial when I- before I got there, and my-my housing preferences, I put down that I did not want to.- I would prefer to room with somebody outside the area that came from. And I did that, and I had a roommate. We did not get to be good friends. And then through the radio station, I met some other people, and eventually roamed with them. And they were from -from the New York area, also from Westchester. And then eventually, my senior year, over junior, senior year, I got a single. IG: 33:38 So do you- did your impression of students from upstate- I mean, you mentioned that there was a cultural difference between New Yorkers and, you know, upstate New Yorkers. Did you, did your impression of upstate New Yorkers change over the time that you were at Harpur? AG: 34:05 I got friendly with people. I, yeah, there was one I- we exchanged visits during vacation. So a number of people come home to New York with me and show them New York. I went to their homes and- IG: 34:19 Where? In Binghamton or? AG: 34:22 No, upstate, and that now these were not people who these were all people within the dorms, I said, people who were local. I see. And we, you know, we realized we had more in common than we had differences, as is typical when you put different cultural groups together. IG: 34:45 Yes-yes, I agree. So tell me a little bit about more about your free time on campus. Did you spend it all at the radio station? Or did you hang out with your friends in the dorm? Or, how did you spend- AG: 35:04 Partially, even the radio station, mostly hanging out with friends in the dorm, doing, you know, going to movies. I- nothing really stands out. IG: 35:16 Yeah. AG: 35:17 As-as you know, spectacular. We- it was, it was very much a lot of my-my friends were pre-med and pre law, as I was, and we did a lot of it was, there was a lot of- and we mostly were, were studious, and that was a reputation of the institution in those days, and I still, I think it is still the reputation of the institution that it is, it is certainly not a party school. It was very much a place where people paid attention to their studies, spent time in the library, and yet spent some time, you know, dating and going on dates and going out to dinner and campus events when there were performances, but that was pretty much it. IG: 36:10 So, how did you get around? Did somebody have a car, or did you take a bus? AG: 36:18 [inaudible] The- you know, the under the underclass years there were, there was transportation into town. Some people have had cars. There was a, there was a shopping mall within walking distance, right- next to campus. So wanted to go shopping. A good while they would walk. Some people had cars. We would go. There was a I am sure it is still there. I think it is still there. We did not go out with some of us went out to bars. We were not heavy drinkers. We were more when we went out. It was more to a place called Pat Mitchell's, which was an ice cream place. We would go out and we would, we would have ice cream, and there were weekend nights, sometimes we would go out drinking and in the bars. In those days, drinking age in New York was 18, so it was much easier to-to go out and socialize that way. IG: 37:32 I wanted to ask, were there women who worked on the radio? AG: 37:38 Yes-yes. IG: 37:40 Yes. Um, were- you know, do you think that there were different expectations for men than there were for women, or did the women who worked on the radio serious about what they were doing and maybe thinking of a career in radio? AG: 38:03 I do not really think, except for one person who became a journalist, I really do not think that anybody expected to make a career out of this, certainly not the people that I was close to. And no, I do not believe that the expectations for the women were any different for the men. Also the women who wanted to be on air. Broadcasters certainly had the opportunity to do that, and it may have been a question that I was not astute enough for any kind of discrimination as far as that was concerned. But I certainly the women who were interested in doing whatever they wanted to do on that particular extracurricular activity had ample opportunity to do it, and did and did so. IG: 38:58 it is interesting. So you know what looking back, what lessons do you think you learned from this time, including your unfortunate brush with this false accusation? What lessons did you learn from this time in your life? I mean, there are probably several, you know, because you spoke about, you know, the impact that the false accusation had on you. But what would you say? What did, what did this experience give you? AG: 39:38 The college experience? IG: 39:39 Yes. IG: 39:40 Or? IG: 39:41 Yeah, in a broader sense, not just a degree. AG: 39:44 It certainly was-was for the first time, I was away from home, and I was determined I had the same, I had the same offer that many of my friends did if I went. To City College, my parents would buy me a car. I said, keep your car. You know, the Holocaust families were very overprotective, and there was a friend of mine later said, you know somebody I had met. Much later, he said he went, he went swimming and got wet, off to your ankles. They sent out the lifeguards, my parents, my parents drove me up and we were 50 miles outside of Binghamton. She said, "You know, you can still go to City College." IG: 40:42 They were more comfortable with that alternative. AG: 40:45 Yeah. The irony was that I had a friend who did exactly that and was killed in an automobile accident while he was, while he was in it was going to City College. So you never know. You just never know. IG: 40:58 You really never know. AG: 40:59 It gives you, yeah, I think, I think that whole experience was, I did not come out. You know, everybody comes out of those experiences different. But I, you know, it was an experience. I-I-I, when I was in graduate school, I look back and I said, it is you really need to apply yourself a little bit more to your studies than you did when you were in school. It was a question of trying to find out, find my find-find out who I was as an individual. I got part of the way there, but [crosstalk] IG: 41:34 What did you, yeah, find out about yourself as an individual from that short period for from those three years? AG: 41:45 that I was, that I was very much a solitary kind of individual. I know that when my father was a road salesman, and he would leave on Monday, he still had institutional textiles, and he had a fairly broad territory, which included the Adirondacks and his- many times during school vacations. When I was in high school, our vacation where we would go along with him, we go up to-to the resort areas, and sometimes he took me along by myself. And I remember thinking to myself, What a horrible, lonely existence this is. And later on in life, I find, I found, I learned the difference between loneliness and solitude. And although, you know, I married, I have a family, but there are, there are many times, right- My wife is still working, and I cherish the time that-that I have to myself. You know, it is kind of a transition when you retire, and I was worried about filling the time that I am reading. One of the things that-that happened in Binghamton was that that I was not very much of a reader. I had difficulty in talking to people about current events other than what was going on classes. I remember I once went gone with a friend to his home, and they had-had a very animated political discussion, and I had really had nothing to say. I was very quiet, and I went to a counselor when I was in law school, and he looked at me, and I feel I often have nothing to offer intellectually. And he said, "Well, do you read?" I said, "Well, you know, do subscribe to magazines?" And at that time, I started reading for pleasure and for information. And I am, sometimes I am reading two, three books at the same time, thanks to my Kindle switching back and forth, and I very much value the time that I have to myself. You know, I did not realize that when I was at school as an undergraduate, but certainly developed that I was I always you know, found myself many times. I found myself doing things by myself, and realized later on that, well, you know, you-you, you know how to be your own best company. And that is, that is a very, very valuable lesson to learn. IG: 44:38 It is a valuable a lesson to learn. I am just wondering you spoke. [crosstalk] Yeah. AG: 44:46 I kind of came late to things throughout my whole life. My daughter was born. I was 49 when I had, when I had, she was an only child. I think that makes you better parent, certainly a mature-mature parents, because you are done building your career and-and have a wonderful relationship with her now. So it is, it is better late than never [inaudible] IG: 45:15 And just-just remind us, well for the record, your career was in development, or um- AG: 45:24 I started out as a New York City school teacher. IG: 45:27 Yes. AG: 45:28 And as I am fond of saying, it was the second to the last place in the world, I wanted to be, as I told you earlier. IG: 45:35 Yes. AG: 45:36 Vietnam was last, and I had a- was in the school, and one of my colleagues in the school got a job at the Central Headquarters of the New York City school system. And he was in the federal- he got a job in the federal aid office. And at that time, I was taking a course at NYU and Intergovernmental Relations. And I said to him, you know, I am taking a course in that sounds really interesting. And if anything opens up in that office, give me a call. I would be interested in pursuing it. And he did, and I went down there. It was a everybody said, "Do not do it. It is a dead-end job." That office was a, I do not, we do not have enough time to explain the city school system to you at that time, but it was a liaison. It was, it was a, really, a glorified clerk of being a liaison between the city school district and the, and the State Education Department for the compensatory education program. So, we reviewed the-the entitlement program applications that went up, they were not competitive then, and if there were anything, if there was anything in that application that the state wanted modified, we acted as liaison. That- I did that for about a year and a half, which brought us to 1975 and there was a- our suit, our superintendent. She was an old-line superintendent, and we were bringing in $400 million in competitive compensatory education at that time in the 1970s. IG: 47:25 That is huge. Yeah. AG: 47:28 And they- there was a there was a recognition that that as a central entity, as a school district, we were not making a great enough effort to go after some of the smaller competitive programs, some of the small competitive grant programs. And they wanted a wanted to form a unit which was sort of like an in-house consultant, grants consultant unit. There were 32 districts and a number of central divisions, and we were there to help them mount competitive applications get more money, as a matter of fact, that is what my dissertation turned out to be. And in terms of competitive- how the competitive grant system works, but in 1975 there was a devastating fiscal crisis in New York City. There was a hiring freeze. Nobody could hire anybody, and so this superintendent formed this little unit, and anybody who could make a paragraph out of two sentences got drafted. We were very small. We started out and we were, we were unsuccessful for three years, and only because she was unwilling to admit that she had made an error, that she let us continue. And then once we-we had some breakthrough, very significant grants that-that-that that unit took off, and we had a wonderful reputation, we- IG: 49:06 State from the state of New York grants or? AG: 49:06 Federal government, state in New York. And then later on, I had, I became the director of that unit, and we started reaching out. We had a new superintendent who new chancellor, who opened up. It was like opening up the windows and waiting the air in. And we started going after private foundation money. And I initiated and spearheaded that drive. I remember I was I got a meeting at it with a foundation executive, and she looked at me and she said, "We would never fund you. I was just so astonished that there was an actual human being who called me up." But before we got done, we were bringing in money from foundations. And I- as I was finishing my doctorate, I was interested in moving on into higher-higher I guess that that was perhaps a holdover from my experience at Binghamton, because all I ever wanted to do in my career was go back and be on a college campus, which I started it I started at Hofstra University, and I have been in and out of education, higher education, elementary and secondary, initially higher education. I had a few jobs in healthcare, long term care, and major medical centers. My foray into healthcare was-was everybody has at least one train wreck in their career. That was mine, and then I wound up back in, back at higher ed. IG: 49:09 Okay, that is, that is very interesting. So, I am just, you know, I am latching on to something that you said in the past, that you, you know, you are a child of Holocaust survivors. Did you connect with any other students at Harpur College who had the same background? AG: 49:09 I did not. IG: 49:09 You did not. You did not find anyone who was like that. AG: 49:09 Most of my friends were very much American. I grew up in a community where everybody was of that background. IG: 50:15 Yeah. AG: 50:15 I was 10 years old. My parents moved to the Bronx and to Riverdale, and I had, a I had one friend that I gravitated to who happened to live in my building, and his parents also- There was a number of families in that building with the same background, but at Binghamton, I did not connect with anybody, nor did I know of anybody who had that background, IG: 52:09 Because they were not first generation like you were. You are first generation American. AG: 52:16 I am. IG: 52:17 Yeah. AG: 52:17 I am. And most of the people that I knew there were not. IG: 52:21 Yeah, that is, that is very interesting. AG: 52:24 American first-first in my family, to go to college. IG: 52:28 Yeah. AG: 52:28 Yeah, immediate family. IG: 52:31 That is remarkable. What you know- what were the most important lessons you-you have learned in life that you would like to share with future Binghamton students who are listening to this recording years from now, what advice do you have to give to them. AG: 53:05 I think part of it is to is to be serious about your studies, but have fun while you are doing it. Again, I kind of relived part of my-my undergraduate experience, and also had experiences that I did not have through my daughter in her and her undergraduate time. Spent a lot of time visiting with her and going to, going to, certainly the first apparent Parents Weekend was-was a highlight, which my parents never did. They dropped me off and dropped me off, and anytime I came home, I made my own arrangements, whereas my daughter we were, we drove up, picked her. She had a car all four years, but there was never enough room in her car for her to come home by herself. So we were back and forth many times. And I cherish that, because I loved it. Matter of fact, when she went to school, I saw the piles building I left, I left home to go to Binghamton with a suitcase. As I saw her collecting the material that she was going to cut the mattress covers the all of the stuff and the bins and things, I said to my wife, I am buying a plane ticket. She said, ridiculous. I said, “I see what you are putting together. I am not fitting into this car. Oh, do not be ridiculous. That is, that is stupid. It is a waste of money.” I said “I bought a plane ticket,” and sure enough, there was. There was no room for me in this car. So I flew up to Portland Maine and rented a car because they drove up, we met and then. My daughter kept the car that she was driving up there and we drove back. But it was, it is just such a totally different experience today. So, somebody who graduated in 1967 I do not even know what I what advice I would have given to my daughter. IG: 55:14 I see, but I mean, you did give advice. Study very hard. Have fun. Yeah, I think, I think those lessons hold true from generation to generation. AG: 55:27 She was always-always a kind of a student who was intrinsically motivated. This is a kid who she graduated, summa cum laude, phi, beta, kappa, Colby College. That is quite an achievement. And as-as self-possessed a person at her age as I never was, and I look at her in awe, because the what she knows about herself and her, her, her goals and her-her ability to pursue those goals. It was not anything that I never picked that up until much, much, much later. IG: 56:11 Well, you had a different upbringing than your daughter. That is very different. AG: 56:16 I never wanted to be the parent my parents were. Yeah, as I think most people would admit to- I do not think you know, there is an old saying, first to become yourself, and then you become your parents. IG: 56:32 Yes-yes, oh, I have never heard that expression that is very good. Yeah. AG: 56:38 When you think about it, it is alarmingly accurate. IG: 56:44 So in which way have you become like your parents? AG: 56:49 I am more overprotective than I should be, and my wife counter balances that, because she is not. She is much more, you know, permissive in terms of what my daughter so there was good balance. You know, we try to keep her safe, but, but she has to learn her-her own. She has to find her own way in life, which-which my parents kind of never got. So she fell in love with Maine, and she decided that all she had, the credentials she could have, she could have pretty much done anything she wanted. And one of the, one of the, one of the things that she did she was on, she was a psychology major. She was on her way to applying for PhD in clinical psych. And I knew, I know the first one of the things that she did at Colby. Colby has what they call Jan plan. You have you take a full course in-in a January semester. You can either make your own class, you can take a standard course. So her first course in January, she became an EMT, and she eventually was one of the one among the leaders of the EMT squad on campus. She was an EMT on the COVID campus for her entire years, and she was going to go and the be a clinical psychologist and get a PhD. I always knew from watching her that she-she was the kind of person who needed to be on front lines, kind of a first responder, not really an academic, and she had her mentor arranged for an internship for her summers. And she had an internship. She went the first summer, and then the second summer, she came home. The middle of it, she said, I do not want to do this seriously my life, which is kind of a wonderful outcome for an internship, because she could have been down the road to a PhD, and then found out she did not really want to. I want to have that kind of an experience. IG: 59:02 She sounds like a girl who knows her mind. AG: 59:05 And she is now at the University of New England. She is pursuing a nursing degree. As I said, we were tearing her hair out because we thought she should go to medical school. She says, I do not want anything to do with being a doctor. That is not what I want. I want to be a nurse practitioner. So, she is in now, in a program, a 16-month program for students who already have a bachelor's in something else, and she will come out with a BSN and an RN, and then pursue a career in as a nurse practitioner. IG: 59:37 You know that Binghamton is starting up a PhD program in nursing. AG: 59:45 I can see her eventually going through. I will mention it to her. IG: 59:53 Yeah. Mention it. I think that this program is beginning in 2020. Third speaker 59:57 Yeah. And I think Binghamton has a. Very strong nursing program. AG: 1:00:02 Yeah, she did not want to follow in my footsteps, IG: 1:00:11 As most children do not. So, yeah. AG: 1:00:14 One of the more amusing things that we when we went to the Colby Information Center session, there was a very engaging student who presented, and he said, "My- I am a legacy student. My parents met at Colby." And he said, "First visit, I hated it. I wanted nothing to do with it, and they prevailed on me to come back." And he said, "My parents realized that they were giving me their experience, and when they went, what they did was they let me explore the campus on my own, and then I enrolled, and I loved it." So, it is again, it is question she-she eventually may seek that out, but, but she does not want to come back to New York. She loves Maine, and that was her criteria for-for a college campus, it had to be rural, it had to be a self-contained campus. It had to be a small liberal arts school need to be [inaudible] all of which she got. AG: 1:00:16 But it is close enough to New York. AG: 1:01:26 Yeah, and none of which I knew about myself at that time. IG: 1:01:30 Do you have any concluding remarks for us? AG: 1:01:35 In terms of-of what you are doing with-with the (19)60s? I do not know I would be interested in seeing how typical my experience is. And I guess some of these interviews, or all these interviews, are going to be available online some point. So, I would hope that you would send out the links for that so that we could, we could watch each other and well, I have not kept in touch with any of my classmates from those days, a few of them on LinkedIn and Facebook, perhaps, but I would like to see what their responses are. IG: 1:02:14 Right. Because in conducting these interviews, there are commonalities, you know, but-but I think that every-every experience is very different. So I think that you will be very gratified to hear the interviews of your classmates. AG: 1:02:33 At Binghamton--you cannot even it is so different that you cannot even call it the same school. Those of us who were there when I was this was an incipient, brand-new school. It was, and I was among, certainly, probably among the first students, first years where it was, where moved from Triple Cities College to the current campus at that time, it was, again, as I said, very small. So if you look at it today, there is, there is no comparison. It is, it is, it is like comparing something like Colby to Penn State, just a totally different [crosstalk]. Harpur College was a small liberal arts institution. Was nothing else. There was no graduate school. There was there was, it was, you know, it was Harpur College. That only happened after I was after I graduated. So that to make comparisons with those with the students of my day and the students who are there today, it is just too different a place. IG: 1:03:42 Well, that is why I think it is- yes, and you experienced the (19)60s, which students today are not. So, it was really, you were a pioneer in-in terms of, you know, being a one, one of the-the first graduating years from this institution. But you were also living in very different times, you know. And that is why we are conducting these interviews, and that is why we are creating this center, virtual center. AG: 1:04:18 If I had to do it over again, I would never, I would not go back to Binghamton. AG: 1:04:22 You would not? AG: 1:04:24 I would have not given my background. I found it; it was- IG: 1:04:28 Where would you go? AG: 1:04:30 -it was, and what I know about myself today. IG: 1:04:35 Yes, AG: 1:04:35 That I did not. I probably would have gone to school in Boston in a more urban environment Boston. And I did not have grades to get into, into the Ivy Leagues, but certainly a Boston University, a school that had much more of-of a social component that Harpur College that I would, I think that probably would have brought me out a little bit more than-than the experiences that I had where there was the sameness of the students in terms of their-their academic aspirations, there was that certainly was partying, but the social component was weak, and I probably could have benefited from a school that had a had a more structured, more extensive social component, not that I wanted to be in a fraternity or anything which was, which was not my thing. I do not know my daughter also we-we went to on our visits. We were we drove up to Colgate. She was one of the schools. She first thing you see when you drive to Colgate is Fraternity Row. And she looked at us, get me out of here. IG: 1:05:45 Yeah. AG: 1:05:46 The reason she chose Colby is because I had eliminated Greek life many years ago. IG: 1:05:58 Right. Well, that is all very interesting, and it is- we will be in touch with you and let you know about the progress of the website of the center and when your interviews will be digitized and put up online. AG: 1:06:19 Where are you at the beginning, the middle, the end. Terms of- IG: 1:06:23 We are I think we think- Third speaker 1:06:25 You are the ninth, the ninth informant that we interviewed so far. IG: 1:06:32 -to do another eight. It is just, Aynur, and me, we are going to do another eight in the next couple of weeks. So, I think that, you know, as soon as-as we are going along, we are going to put up these interviews, each are an hour an hour half long. AG: 1:06:52 Let me know as I sent you an email. I think coming from a development office, as-as given all my years of experience in development, I think that was a deterrent. I almost deleted your message. IG: 1:07:04 Well, what could I do? I mean, I was given this assignment, given my reporting background, and should I write, perhaps, that I am a reporter for, I was a reporter for Fortune Magazine, but I am not anymore. AG: 1:07:18 But I think, I think coming from a development office gives the wrong impression. IG: 1:07:23 I will let the Dean know. I will let the Dean know. I am also, you know, I will. I will, you know, I think that you have a very valid point. IG: 1:07:32 Okay, that-that is a very that is very good advice. I do not know how much I can do about it, but I agree with you. AG: 1:07:32 I have been a VET Development Professional one way or another my entire career, and maybe I picked up on it because, okay, it is coming from a development office. They want to this is a pre solicitation gimmick, and I really do not want any part of it. And then I researched the- I looked up the center online. I saw that it was a legitimate thing, connected with you on LinkedIn. I think yours, your email signature. It should not be coming from a development officer or just my two cents. AG: 1:07:38 Well, you have another title, and that is= AG: 1:07:53 Not here, not here, it is not here. I can just leave it out, maybe the Development Office part, AG: 1:08:25 but yeah, because it is not relevant, [crosstalk] development officer, IG: 1:08:32 Maybe it could come from you. All right, well, we will figure it out, but you have certainly given us food for thought, and thank you so much for a great interview. IG: 1:08:43 All right, thank you. I appreciate you reaching out. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Andrew Grant Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Hebrew Union College; Harpur College – Alumni living in Suffolk County, Long Island Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grant, Andrew ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Andrew Grant is a retired Assistant VP for Institutional Advancement at Hebrew Union College in NYC. He worked as a disc jockey at WHRW-FM. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Andrew Grant.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-08-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 69:46 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/413da5af9b25718fd861534ef0c6d4d3.mp3 0cc55d6f024d072cc538ad92ee73a332 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5129bc3b154a1b81fedada515387a027.jpg 33662591b079390becc63ebbb7aa414c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-04-02 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Eric D. Weitz Year of Graduation 1974 Biographical Text Dr. Eric Weitz is Distinguished Professor of History and the former Dean of Humanities and Arts at The City College of New York (CCNY). Trained in modern German and European history, Weitz has also worked in international and global history. He is currently completing <em>A World Divided: A Global History of Nation-States and Human Rights since the Eighteenth Century</em>. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Eric D. Weitz Subject The topic of the resource Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weitz, Eric D. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Eric Weitz is Distinguished Professor of History and the former Dean of Humanities and Arts at The City College of New York (CCNY). Trained in modern German and European history, Weitz has also worked in international and global history. He is currently completing <em>A World Divided: A Global History of Nation-States and Human Rights since the Eighteenth Century</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-04-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Eric Weitz.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-04-02 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 53:49 minutes IIIF Item Metadata UUID d5a68c98-d53f-46ee-8a9f-bbe3723fad90 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a938abfe3835040b9164f6963622f9ca.mp3 a0b3d8c69f45b9f53b66efe174431bcc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Neal M. Friedberg Year of Graduation 1962 Biographical Text Neal retired in 2018 from his 49-year practice as a physician-hematologist in New York City. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixities alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Sixities alumni; Medical school; Hematology; Civil rights; Anti-war Movement; Student life; Retirement activities Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Neal M. Friedberg Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 31 May 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Testing, okay, I think we are good. NF: 00:07 I Neil Friedberg, class of 1962 at Harpur College, consent to this interview with Irene Gashurov and agree that it be part of the public documents about the 1960s and Harpur College. IG: 00:31 Excellent. Thank you. So perhaps we can start with your identifying yourself when you graduated, and what you do? NF: 00:53 I am a retired physician. I grew up in New York City, in the Washington Heights area, and went to the Bronx High School of Science, and I think that is what led me to be accepted at Harpur College in 1958. It was a new school at the time in terms of its imminently new campus in Vestal New York. In the year that I entered, most of the classes were held in former military huts that had been left either on the Binghamton or Vestal campuses or in Johnson City. It was a preferred school for me at the time because it was a school that I could afford and at the time, New York state and the federal government were generous with scholarship and scholar incentive awards, which essentially allowed me to go to school for practical purposes free for the four years that I attended Harpur College. IG: 02:27 That is a good introduction. Very good introduction. So, you mentioned that you grew up in Washington Heights. Who were your parents? NF: 02:37 My parents were second generation Americans. I am an only child. My mother was born in 1914 my father in 1908 they--my mother worked part time when I was an adolescent, but not prior. And my father was a part of furrier working part time when the industry allowed him to work. Neither, neither of them finished high school, I may add. IG: 03:17 That is tremendous. I mean, given your achievement. But did they encourage what was the culture like at home? Did they encourage your education? NF: 03:30 The emphasis was always on bettering oneself through education. IG: 03:39 So, you were in Bronx High School of Science. Did you show a predisposition to the sciences over what did you want to study? NF: 03:51 I always believed that my mother whispered in my ear from the time I was four or five that I would be a doctor. There was some precedent in the family. With one of my cousins, there was no other person in the family who was a physician. I always enjoyed science, but I always also loved literature. And there was a debate in my Harpur education about whether I was going to switch into literature, but ultimately decided that medicine was probably a better profession, and one could like literature independent of. IG: 04:39 That is a very wise decision to make at such an early age. So, what was your first impression of you know, I mean, you are a city kid, and most of the students were from New York City and-and Long Island, but there must have been a few from upstate New York, and so what-what was your impression of the students? NF: 05:07 At the time that I entered Harpur, there were only two dormitories extant. One was Refuse Hall for the boys, and I forget the name of the girls. The ground floor of Refuse Hall where I boarded each room had two people, two boys, and it was interesting that most of the boys were not New York City boys, but rather upstate boys with a couple of Long Islanders and as a quote, unquote sophisticated New York city [phone rings] IG: 06:06 Okay, so we have resumed with our conversation with Neil Friedberg. NF: 06:17 So, as I said, most of the boys were from upstate New York, and boys being boys, we would often assemble in a room and shoot the breeze. And it was remarkable for me as this quote, sophisticated New Yorker, how intelligent and in their own way, sophisticated these other young men were. And it was an eye-opening experience that has stood me in good stead over the many years, where, in the field of medicine, you meet people from all walks of life and all sorts of interests that I could find a way and accommodate my own interests and conversations to their needs. IG: 07:28 So, what kind of things did you talk about? NF: 07:32 Well, I think it was the common things that boys talked about. Needless to say, we talked about girls, we talked about the classes that we were attending, and we talked about the society as a whole. And it was, it was not a particularly violent period of time, but it was a rather conservative period of time, and I, having come from a New York City Jewish background with a fairly liberal parent and family based would often argue with many of the guys who had much more conservative views of what the society should be and was like. IG: 08:39 So, you know, what was a society? What was your what was your vision of this society and what it should be? Was it about diversity? Was it about, you know, greater democracy, reaching? NF: 08:55 Well, this was, I think, the major issue at the time, I think was still civil rights right, and I had always, even at that time period, time of my life, thought it was outrageous that there was still such animosity. And difficulty for the what we call the black population at the time, or negro population at the time. In 1959 I began to date a young woman at the college who was a freshman who was much more radical than I was, and I think she awakened in me a much more active role in the civil rights movement. I not sure when it was. I think it was (19)60 or (19)61 when the Woolworth sit-ins began. And though we were not in the south, there was indeed a Woolworths in Binghamton, New York, at which we sat in at Woolworths. IG: 10:23 So, tell me what I have heard of sit ins, but not specific to Woolworths, because they-they, why-why were you sitting in? NF: 10:34 Woolworths would not allow Negroes, Blacks to sit at the counter in their stores, and the counters were the place where individuals would sit and have their sandwiches or coffee, etc. Those kinds of counters seem to have faded now to a great extent, though there are still some around. IG: 10:58 Right. So, what did that look like? I mean, a group of college kids would come in and where would you sit? NF: 11:09 We would, we would take the seats at the counter and that order. And that, of course, undermine the economics of Woolworth's. Not of course, for the day or so that we did it. It was not a major issue, but it was a measure of the support at the college level for what was going on nationally. IG: 11:34 And so, where were you sitting in which Woolworths in upstate New York or? IG: 11:41 In Binghamton. IG: 11:42 In Binghamton Woolworths, New York. Um, was- did the police come? NF: 11:47 Good question, I do not remember. IG: 11:49 You do not remember. So, you know you say radical. I am just interested radical girlfriend. How was her radicalness expressed? NF: 12:02 Well, mostly in thought. I mean, I do not think she, you know, was doing creating bombs or things of that sort, or robbing banks, right, you know, anything of that sort. So, I think it was a philosophical radicalism right at the time. IG: 12:29 So, what notions you know? I would like to probe a little [crosstalk] What ideas did she instill in you, or she exposed you to? NF: 12:48 Well, I do not recall that. I do not recall particulars. I think what she did was to extend my own quote liberalism, maybe into a more substantive vein. More than that, I cannot say. IG: 13:19 Maybe to enact your beliefs or? NF: 13:22 Well, in the sense that, in the sense that I would go to a sit in, which is probably something I would not have done as the only child of anxious parents. IG: 13:35 Yes. NF: 13:35 Right. And as time went on, got more involved in the anti-war movement and went to Washington to march in the anti-war marches, or Washington in the Civil War marches. IG: 13:53 Was this after Binghamton? NF: 13:55 Well, I do not remember exactly when they were. It must have been while it while I was at Binghamton, because there was not a lot of time to do that in medical school. IG: 14:06 Right-right. So, what was that like? You know, a bus- NF: 14:12 Yes, bus, right. IG: 14:13 Students [crosstalk] or drove up NF: 14:15 Several busses would drive down to Washington and spend, I presume, the weekend, marching on the mall. IG: 14:31 With-with many other people? NF: 14:34 Yes, both people from the school, as well as the innumerable other people who would show up IG: 14:42 And innumerable other people were people like Martin Luther King, or any leaders there that you recall? NF: 14:50 Well, I seem to remember a Philip Randolph, and there was somebody else. Um, I do not remember attending King's speeches, but I might have, I just do not recall. IG: 15:14 So, do you think that overall? Well, you know, in 1958 Harpur College was just earning its reputation. NF: 15:23 Right. IG: 15:24 Because these are just the beginnings. NF: 15:26 Right-right. IG: 15:27 But what kind of you know was it already sort of the rigorous liberal arts school that- NF: 15:37 The-the- okay, the-the education that I achieved at Bingham at Harpur was much more in the desire for knowledge than the actual high-powered knowledge that I might have gotten at a quote, unquote better school right at the time, the Biology Department was vastly understaffed and with professors who were, for the most part, out of date. I think the best department that I recall was the English department. In particular, I had a wonderful experience with a professor named Dr. Wald, Dr. Weld [John Weld], I am sorry, Weld, who was just a remarkable professor for teaching both the drama theater and poetry and literature, very exciting. And uh- IG: 16:55 Do you remember what you were reading? Was it- NF: 16:58 Oh well for- IG: 16:58 -temporary or was it- NF: 17:00 -well, for instance, the Shakespeare course that I took with him, or maybe it was only a theater course, but Shakespeare was one of the plays, and he was teaching King Lear at the time [crosstalk], and he would stand in front of the class and say, "Do you think I could be King Lear?" And he was about five, five or five, six, and scrawny. And then he would get up on the desk, climb on the desk, and, you know, act out King Lear. And it was just a way of exciting students. IG: 17:41 Was he an actor at some point? NF: 17:43 No idea, no idea. IG: 17:45 The theater department, until this day is remarkably strong. So, he made an impression. And this is this, is this why you were at one point leaning toward, NF: 18:02 Well, I think the department as a whole, well, let us go back. I mean, from the time I was a small kid, I was a voracious reader. I would get into bed when I was, you know, 12-year-old, and take a flashlight, cover my head with a quilt so my folks would not see I was awake, and read under the covers. And I did that throughout that period of time, so that I always liked literature. It was a way for the world to open up to me, over and above the community I had grown up in. And so, when the literature courses at Harpur were exciting, it was a reason to think about entering that field. IG: 18:51 Of course, of course. NF: 18:53 But I was, again, probably a little smarter than I should have been, because I thought I was going to be a physician at Bronx Science. I took Latin because I thought you had to have Latin as a physician. And the sentence structure of Latin is so formal and convoluted that when I would have to write papers for the English department. I recognized that I was not a writer. And I thought you have to be a writer if you are going to be in the English world, in the literature world. IG: 19:36 I mean these, well, I mean it is, it is, it is a good recognition at the at the time, not, you know, but, I mean, these are also skills that can be developed, you know, but you just did not have the inclination, you did not have the inclination that is amazing. So-so this was your Harpur experience. And, um, you mentioned, you know the faculty that made an impression, but you were determined to pursue your medical career. And so, did you apply to graduate school right after that? Or and did you get any advisement from your teachers? NF: 20:20 I did not really need much advice from the teachers. IG: 20:25 Right. NF: 20:25 It was pretty clear that I had the grades necessary to get into medical school. And again, the problem of finances arose, and at the time, there were probably three medical schools in the state that were state schools. There was downstate in Brooklyn, upstate in Syracuse, and Buffalo. IG: 20:50 And Buffalo. NF: 20:51 Right. And I certainly had no desire to go into what was thought to be a what sort of should I say, Alliance pit in Brooklyn, where- IG: 21:07 Really? NF: 21:07 -where it was said that some of the students would change the location of the pins in the guinea pig or animal that was being, you know, dissected so that the students who came behind them would get it wrong and they would look outstanding. IG: 21:28 That is a really good story. That is a really it was that competitive, NF: 21:33 Yes, right, right. Whereas Upstate was not terribly different from Binghamton, except one had to live in the cold and nastiness of Syracuse. IG: 21:45 of course. So, you went to Syracuse. You went to Syracuse. So, you know, did you have any idea about specializing, or did you NF: 21:57 Uh, okay. Good question, when we started to think about specializing after the first year, which were all the usual anatomy, physiology courses, I think I basically decided that I was going to go into hematology, because nobody understood anything about blood, and nobody, none of the other students cared about blood, and I thought it was a ubiquitous fluid, and it also served one of the things that I really had liked, and that was biochemistry. Most of the other disciplines depended upon physiology at the time right and hematology and endocrinology were those disciplines that had an underlying biochemical foundation. So just to pursue that. So, when elective time came, I took hematology, and I also worked one or two summers with a professor who was in the Department of Medicine, but was not a physician. He was a PhD, learning some techniques of electrophoresis, but also going out into the community of Canandaigua County, is that Syracuse, where they were testing and looking after some migrant laborers that would that was taking place at the time, so we would sample their blood and measure different vitamin levels, etc. IG: 24:18 Did you find that they- NF: 24:20 I were in- IG: 24:21 -any way deficient because- NF: 24:23 I was not around long enough to find the answers. IG: 24:30 So, you know, you spent this rigorous you did this rigorous degree, and you probably were very much immersed in your studies, and were you paying attention to- NF: 24:46 -the rest of the world? IG: 24:47 Yes. NF: 24:51 I have no question, right. And it was also true that--I need to go back actually. It was in 1964 which is after my second year of medical school. In this in the second year of medical school, my good friend said, you know, the government is giving out a lot of loans. You know, rather than working at the local hospital, which we were doing at the time, perhaps it would be a good idea to take some loans. And needless to say, that the loans were granted. And he said, as we got the loans, you know, we have all this money. Why do not we go to Europe? IG: 25:38 That is a great way of thinking. NF: 25:47 So, so we did that and ran our full heads off in the summer of (19)64 and that is where I met my wife. We met in the Athens airport. IG: 26:10 Is she American? NF: 26:13 Yes-yes, she was doing the same thing I was doing. And so, I was certainly extending myself beyond my medical interests, but Kennedy got shot in (19)63 and Robert a few years later, etc., and King got killed. It was hard to not be aware of the chaos in the society. IG: 26:53 So, did you see that? You know how? How was it visible to you that society was, in fact, changing from, you know, the more I mean this. These are general. NF: 27:08 Well, this was, this was a radical change. As I said, the (19)50s were rather conservative and the (19)60s were rather liberal. And it was not only sexually, but it was socially as well. (19)53 had been the Board of Education thing in Little Rock as just one manifestation of a major change which was ongoing. I do not remember how many years it took for many of the other southern schools to integrate, and there were always barriers to that integration, from the governors to the local citizenry. I think if you look oh and (19)61 was Cuba, right? It is interesting. If you look at, look at Robert Rauschenberg's art, you see pieces of news clippings from that era in the paintings, but testing to the awareness and the sense that art was a contributing factor to changes in society. IG: 28:37 Yeah, I think that is I believe that too. That it always is in dialog with its time. What about the Vietnam War? You were in medical school, so you were kind of not impervious, but you were protected against the draft. NF: 28:57 Well, here is you are here is your real story. So, in the must have been (19)65 the war is heating up, and the military offered doctors, potential doctors, the opportunity to defer their training, I am sorry, to defer their entry into the military until they completed their training. Actually, maybe this occurred a little later, and so we were offered to go in as either a first lieutenant or as a captain when you finished your training. So, I did elect to take that opportunity to defer my-my entry, because maybe the war would be over, whereas colleagues of mine were going after the internship or first year residency, and then as the war carried on and became increasingly unpopular and embittering, I decided I was not under any circumstances are going to go. So, I had a few options, Canada, jail, or what I decided to do was to apply for conscientious objector status. Now, in order to do that, you have to prove that you had some measure of that prior to your deciding that. So, because of my anti-war activity, etc., I thought I had the criteria. And the military criteria is that you have to be interviewed by a military officer, a religious person, and I am missing one military, the religious, it will come to me anyway, all three people approved of my sincerity. That was the criteria. You had to be sincere and convincing. So, the military turned me down, even though I met the criteria. So, I went to court and at the what do you call it, the lowest level of the federal courts, IG: 32:00 The city? NF: 32:10 No, well, whatever- IG: 32:15 Where was it? Where- NF: 32:16 In New York. IG: 32:16 In New York City. NF: 32:17 Yeah, I was turned down two to one, so we went to the appellate court, where I did win again, two to one, and the military gave me a discharge. IG: 32:37 How long did that process take? NF: 32:41 Let us see from probably from (19)68 to (19)71 or (197)2. IG: 32:52 It is a long time. NF: 32:54 Yeah. IG: 32:54 To be fighting. NF: 32:56 Yeah. IG: 32:56 What- were you already practicing as a doctor? NF: 33:01 When I know well, that is not exactly true when-when I finished my training, I needed a job, and I applied to different institutions in the city here we were going to live in the city. That was a decision made, IG: 33:21 And were you married at the time? NF: 33:23 Oh yes-yes, married in (19)65 I had to tell each of the different institutions what the status could I could disappear at any time. And most of them did not care. I mean, they said, that is fine, yeah, you know, we want you. We will take you, and I took a position. IG: 33:54 What were you doing? NF: 33:55 Hematology. NF: 33:56 Yes. IG: 33:57 Still. So, what did that? What did that involve? What did your work involve? Were you an MD? You are not an MD/PhD? IG: 34:01 Right. IG: 34:01 No, just an MD. IG: 34:08 Just, yeah. NF: 34:11 It involved teaching, some administrative work, running the blood clotting laboratory at the hospital, taking care of patients. IG: 34:25 Right. So-so before you said that so institutions did not care about your wanting to be a subject and being snatched at any moment. NF: 34:42 Right-right-right. IG: 34:43 Because you must have impressed them with all of your training. And- NF: 34:47 Because I had good training. IG: 34:48 Right. You had a good training. May I ask where you had your training? NF: 34:52 Sure, when I graduated upstate, I went to Montefiore Hospital. IG: 34:58 Oh, that is okay. Yeah. NF: 34:59 And spent three, three years there, and then, including one year fellowship. And then I went to NYU and spent two years there. IG: 35:15 Did Montefiore, at the time, have its reputation of providing, you know, first rate care to the poor. NF: 35:23 Yes-yes. They are both terrific institutions in terms of care, of course, right. IG: 35:30 In terms of that. NF: 35:31 Yes, sure, yeah. IG: 35:34 Okay, so-so you know, the-the Vietnam War was your participation in it was you narrowly, kind of escaped. And so, tell us about, we are entering into the (19)70s. So, tell us about, you know what, what your life- NF: 36:03 So, the (19)70s were the time of my beginning my career. Yeah, I took my first job in (19)71. And I had my first child in (19)71 my wife, who is probably very much smarter than I am, who was getting her PhD in biochemistry, environmental medicine at NYU. So, she had a little more leeway, I think, in terms of childcare, but I was pretty diligent about coming home to see the daughter. See my daughter and our son was born in (19)74 and my wife, who kept looking at what I was doing and what she was doing, thought she really wanted to be a physician as well. So, after some contention, she went to she got into NYU in (19)74 in medical school as a sophomore, so she did not have to compete with all the new kids on the block. And finished, I guess, in (19)76 and became an ophthalmologist. So. IG: 37:45 So, in some way, this is the (19)70s, especially the late (19)70s, or the beginning of the feminist movement, but you were already practicing that in your married life. NF: 37:55 Yeah, a little bit reluctantly. I must confess. IG: 37:57 Why? Because you had expectations that she would take a different route, or? NF: 38:03 Well, I guess, because she already had a doctorate and to now go to school when we have, you know, a child in the crib and one on the way, seemed like a lot of burden would fall to me. IG: 38:27 You were the one to do the child rearing. NF: 38:30 Well, to a certain extent. I mean, we hired a wonderful woman who stayed with us for innumerable years. But nevertheless, there are weekends and evenings. IG: 38:45 Right. Of course, of course. So, did you-you know your wife when she became a physician, did you go into practice together, or were you working with a completely so what is her specialization? NF: 39:04 Ophthalmology. IG: 39:05 ophthalmology, of course. I am sorry. I am sorry, of course, of course, I am sorry. NF: 39:11 And we live here, yeah, we, we were living in an Edmonton here in a one-bedroom apartment. And then we came into Manhattan, because we both wanted to live in Manhattan, and we had a very nice two-bedroom apartment, but, you know, we had a boy and a girl, and we thought we would need to do something about that eventually. And we had taken, we had taken a European trip and went to Scandinavia, and she took a social tour while I did some other thing. And what she had learned was that in Sweden, you had to wait about. Seven years before you could get an apartment. So, she said, that is going to happen here. We better buy something. So, we have for several years. We bump it around, looking for something that we could afford, and then ultimately came up with this. IG: 40:18 So, you have had this in your position? [crosstalk] Well, that is, it is, was it a ground space like this? Renovate over the years? NF: 40:31 There was there was only this column, a kitchen here, a small bathroom. And perhaps, as a measure of the feminist movement, we hired a woman architect who was just wonderful, probably the best architect we have had since we have been doing things. IG: 40:55 It is a gorgeous it is a gorgeous apartment. So, did you, you know, did your activity- did you have any activity in politics, or you had no time for that? But you- NF: 41:11 I had no time, and I have no inclination. NF: 41:15 It is not that I am concerned about it, very diligent about knowing what is going on. IG: 41:15 No inclination. So, um- IG: 41:25 Did you did you keep in touch with any of your fellow students from Harpur College? NF: 41:32 Good question. The- in those days when we assembled in one room and, you know, shot the breeze, my roommate was a six-foot three tall guy who used to wear a red cowboy hat, and he lived many places upstate, because his father was in the military, and they would shuttle around. And I really got to like him. The irony, of course, was that he taught me all about contemporary American classical music and about Bach and- IG: 42:23 How interesting. NF: 42:24 Yes-yes. So, we remained friends for a while, and then we lost touch over the years, and then when our 50th reunion time came, I contacted him to ask if he was going to be attending. He was a scholar, political science scholar, well, particularly involved in Korea, and he was still a professor at the time. IG: 42:56 Where was- NF: 42:57 At UC Irvine. IG: 43:01 Oh. NF: 43:03 And unfortunately, he could not come to the reunion. He was too busy. But we have been in contact and visited since. IG: 43:12 Very nice, very nice. NF: 43:14 So, I saw him just a few months ago. IG: 43:17 Oh, here or in California? NF: 43:22 Actually here. Yeah, his wife has family on Long Island. IG: 43:28 I see. So, when you get together, how do you remember Harpur? What do you say about- NF: 43:34 Oh, we do not talk [crosstalk] IG: 43:36 You do not talk. No-no-no. NF: 43:39 You know, our lives have moved on. IG: 43:40 Of course, of course. NF: 43:42 I must say that I enjoyed attending the 50th reunion. I was surprised because I had not liked my reunions at Bronx Science. Had not liked them at all, and I was not particularly enamored of reunion at Upstate, but I like the 50th that. IG: 44:08 Why do you say that? Because of the kind of people- NF: 44:11 Yeah-yeah, right. IG: 44:12 Yeah. I think it is, it is a very strong group of people, you know, at least the ones that I have been talking- NF: 44:22 It is interesting that of the people that I remember, I do not know that anybody became that famous from my class. IG: 44:36 Well, you know, as I said it, from your class, from (19)62. NF: 44:41 Yeah. IG: 44:42 The class of (19)62 you know, I-I do not know about the class of (19)62 but I think it is sort of, you know, a quality of a turn, a certain turn of mind that, you know, people were very engaged in their time, and they accomplished something with their lives. You know, whether it got them fame or, you know, they wrote books or they you know, their circle of influence may have been, not as you know, not conspicuous, but, I mean, it was circle of influence in their community, but maybe it was not known about to you know to others. NF: 45:32 Well, you have to remember that the class, I think, had a max of 200 students, and by the second year, it was down to, I think about 105 it shrunk considerably through dropouts and transfers, I guess. IG: 45:50 Dropouts and transfers and the maybe the war, or that the war was true. NF: 45:57 No, I do not think so. Yeah-yeah. And also, there were, I mean, the male female relation ratio. There probably 65, 35. IG: 46:13 65 female, 65 male. NF: 46:15 Male. IG: 46:15 Oh. NF: 46:17 Yeah, there were- there were not that many women. IG: 46:22 And there probably were even fewer international students, minorities. NF: 46:28 Very few. Yeah, I think there were two black kids in our class. IG: 46:35 How do you think that your classmates remember you? NF: 46:38 [laughs] I well, I think other than the ones who I would have re met in the 50th most of them do not remember me at all. I was not uh- IG: 47:06 But what how do you think that they remembered, if they you know, certainly the person that you-you know, who teaches at Irvine, remembered you? NF: 47:16 Oh, yeah, sure. IG: 47:17 You know how did he you know, you did not really discuss how you each remembered each other. NF: 47:28 No, it was like there had been no interval time. IG: 47:35 I see, that is wonderful. That is a wonderful feeling. And you met on campus. NF: 47:42 No-no-no. We met here in the city. IG: 47:44 You met- NF: 47:45 You mean originally. IG: 47:46 Originally. You went to the 50th reunion, which was on campus. So- NF: 47:52 No-no, but he did not attend. IG: 47:53 He did not attend. NF: 47:54 Right. IG: 47:55 So, but- okay, so I was going to ask you, know, how was how did Binghamton strike you 50 years later? NF: 48:09 Well, Binghamton, I think, was a pretty rundown city. The two things I remember most specifically about it, or it had a wonderful art movie theater, and it was a very significant factor in my arts world, even to the present. And the second thing was it had a reasonable black community, and it was always fun to go down into the black community to the bars and drink there. IG: 48:52 Well, that is great. So, Binghamton is still a depressed city. NF: 49:02 Yes-yes, correct. IG: 49:04 It is still a depressed city. But at your during that time, there was, perhaps, when you were in college, there was more industry there. I mean, no, NF: 49:14 I was not aware of that. IG: 49:16 You were not aware of that. NF: 49:17 No, the-the, I mean, the only industry I think that I was at all aware of was the Johnson shoe factory. IG: 49:27 Right. NF: 49:28 And they were basically gone already. IG: 49:35 Yeah, I have met people who worked [crosstalk] NF: 49:37 And then IBM was in that area there. And in fact, the botany course that I took often would go to their grounds. The botany professor was a terrific professor, and I guess he got permission to meander. So [crosstalk] IG: 50:02 So, it must have been a beautiful headquarters that IBM [crosstalk] NF: 50:07 You know [crosstalk] IG: 50:09 So-so, you know. Do you think overall that Harpur College prepared you for your future career, not directly, of course, because- NF: 50:19 Well, what I think I started off with was that Harpur prepared me to learn. It made learning exciting and interesting, and whether it was the professors or the courses or the student body, totally does not really matter, but it was- did not quell my interest in learning. And I thought the social milieu, the excitement about politics and what was going on in the larger community of the US was I was very much involved in what was going on at the college at that time, and I think that was also very important in broadening my experience and opening my eyes to what was going on. IG: 51:23 So-so, you know, I am curious, how do you spend your time now? What are some of the pursuits that you are engaged with? NF: 51:32 You mean, as a retired physician? [laughs] IG: 51:36 Yeah-yeah, yes. NF: 51:38 Well, let us give a universal overview. We spend nine months of the year in New York City and three months in a home that we bought in California. IG: 51:51 Where in California? NF: 51:54 Santa Barbara. Not bad, huh? IG: 51:57 Not bad, not bad. NF: 52:00 We have been very fortunate. And so, of the nine months here, we also have a house upstate New York, so [crosstalk] we are just east of Rhinebeck, Hudson Valley. IG: 52:19 That is lovely. Been there recently. NF: 52:23 So, we spend weekends up there. So given those three parameters- IG: 52:30 You probably [inaudible] well, I mean from one house to another. NF: 52:36 When we, when we bought the Upstate house in 1973, I said to my wife, who has been the real estate agent in the family, "Well, it is okay. We will buy this house, but we are not going to not travel on vacation," and so we have traveled extensively over the years. IG: 53:01 Where have you gone? Some of the places- NF: 53:04 We have gone to, most of the countries in Asia, standard European travel. We came back from Safari this year in Botswana, Zimbabwe. We have been in Colombia and Argentina, Morocco. IG: 53:28 What stands out in your memory? What-what is, you know, what are some of the most impressive places that you have seen? NF: 53:38 I think if you spoke to each of us, the most exciting time we have ever had was in Cambodia. It was just wonderful. But sometimes getting out of the country revolves around people, and we have very good friends in Turin Italy who we see on a reasonably regular basis and go around Italy with them. So that is also wonderful having known somebody for over 50 years. IG: 54:19 You know, looking back at the decade, at the (19)60s, are you sometimes you know- do you sometimes recognize that you know the world has changed in your dramatically in your lifetime? NF: 54:38 We only hope to live long enough to see it go back to the (19)60s. [laughs] IG: 54:46 That is a great answer. NF: 54:49 I mean, that was the most exciting era that most of the exciting decade that I remember. IG: 54:56 I think so in in every way, almost- NF: 54:59 Yeah. Yeah. IG: 55:00 I think I would, yeah. NF: 55:03 But you had asked me in another- oh, and how I spend my time now. IG: 55:07 Yeah. NF: 55:08 Okay. Well, as you can see, I collect photographs IG: 55:15 Yes. NF: 55:15 Okay, and those the ones you are looking at are not the prime example of what I collect. I collect panoramic photos. It is my niche. I do not- IG: 55:31 These are these are prints. These are prints that you have on the wall. They are not photographs. IG: 55:37 They are photographs. IG: 55:39 So, do you go to galleries, or do you go to antiques? NF: 55:48 Mostly antiques. IG: 55:49 And where do you find them? In New York City, or all over? NF: 55:53 All over. IG: 55:54 All over. NF: 55:55 Yeah, so that is one thing. Secondly, when I started to retire in 1960 [inaudible] [laughter], in 2000 [laughs] Mr. Freud. IG: 56:18 Yes-yes. NF: 56:19 I started to play the piano, and I am not a very good pianist, but I enjoy it. So. IG: 56:29 So, you, you never had music lessons before? NF: 56:32 Well, I played the violin when I was 10-year-old for a couple years. IG: 56:36 Okay. NF: 56:36 I play golf. I go to a lot of museums and galleries. For several years, when I was in California, I worked at the Santa Barbara Museum in the photography department as a volunteer. IG: 56:58 How wonderful. How wonderful. So, you learned a tremendous amount about photography. NF: 57:03 Yeah, but unfortunately, the curator died. IG: 57:08 Have you read Susan Sontag On Photography? NF: 57:12 It is on the table on my upstate New York [crosstalk] IG: 57:18 It is an obvious question. NF: 57:20 Right. NF: 57:22 What else do I do? We entertain a lot. We have a lot of friends here, upstate, California, and then I am having my family. IG: 57:39 And your kids are- NF: 57:40 My daughter is in walking distance with her two grandchildren, and my son, I have to get on the subway and take four stops. IG: 57:48 You are very lucky. You are very lucky. NF: 57:50 It is really a burden, yeah. IG: 57:54 So-so, you know- NF: 57:57 I do not think it is luck. IG: 57:57 What? NF: 57:58 I do not think it is luck. IG: 58:00 You know, it, I do not think it is luck, but luck, you know, chance and luck does play a part, you know? I mean, it is, well, I mean, this is a [inaudible] NF: 58:11 They could migrate. IG: 58:12 They could migrate. This is a philosophical question. I think, I think, you know, certainly, it is a lot of what you have, the life that you have created. But I think that there is an element of luck or not, you know, it is, it is the historic it is the context in which the historical time in which you live, you know, it is the environment around you, you know? I mean, there are a lot of contributing sure forces that are outside of our control, NF: 58:44 Right. [crosstalk] IG: 58:50 If you were to, I would like you to tell us, if you - what lessons did you learn from your-your years at Harpur College? What would you like? What advice would you give to current students who listen to this tape? What-what are important qualities or, you know- NF: 59:20 The problem as I see it, in answering that question is the-the insular nature of our life compared to youth. So, I-I could say things that I think are maybe more universal, and the first one would be not to dismiss people who are so different from you, but rather to take in their experience and way of being and try to enrich yourself from the way they are. The second would be trying to listen to what people have to say, even those that are like you, if their views are different than yours, but not to be so passive as not to argue. My one of my hematology professors, who is a just a wonderful gem of a man, always said that you can always argue with me, as long as it is not an ad hominem argument. I-I guess the other thing would be, just keep on learning things you know your own enrichment is at least as important as what you do, because as you age, you need to, you need to be excited about the life you are living. IG: 1:01:26 Yes, and you need to fill up the spaces that that were taken up so much by your profession. NF: 1:01:33 Sure-sure. I have always told people who are getting ready to retire, because I retired pretty young was the hardest thing to give up. Is not the work you do or your clients, it is your comrades here that the, you know, two second interaction that you have with somebody in the hallway or, you know, is vital, is how you feel? IG: 1:02:06 Yeah, I-I could not agree with you more. And these interactions may be even more important for young people, you know, whose world is. You know, I well, I mean, I remember that in graduate school, my best education, my greatest education, was talking in a coffee house with my- NF: 1:02:31 Sure. IG: 1:02:31 -with my fellow- NF: 1:02:32 Sure, Hmm-mm. IG: 1:02:33 -students. So, do you have any- well, what were, for example, we can expand on this, what were the most important less, what was the most important lesson in your life? I mean, this is, this is sort of answering the question that you have just answered is NF: 1:03:01 Not answered. [laughs] IG: 1:03:03 You cannot answer it. NF: 1:03:04 No. Did not I not answer it? IG: 1:03:06 You did. You did. So, this is, this is not a question that we need to ask. So do you have any concluding remarks, any words of wisdom that you want to impart to our students, anything that you have not said. NF: 1:03:32 Well, I think yes, I would say that in the midst of your most industrious work when you are at the height of your career and apparently overwhelmed by the amount of work you seem to need to do, you have to have some other outlet, something that interests you, whether it be reading a book or taking a photograph or playing tennis or something, has to intercede in the times of stress. I do not believe in stress, so let us take the word out of it in times when you are busiest and most focused, I think you need to unfocus. IG: 1:04:26 I think you are right. I think you are right. Well, thank you very much. NF: 1:04:32 Just add one thing that I forget that have mentioned when I was in the twilight of my career, somebody from Harpur called and asked if I would be interested in not entertaining, but having a student from the college who was interested in potentially going into medicine. Would I mind if they came to the office? Had watched me work, and I- IG: 1:05:07 It is really good idea. NF: 1:05:08 I did that for a couple of years, and had a wonderful time. Just wonderful. The students had a wonderful time. And I did too, because it was like, invigorating. IG: 1:05:20 Right. NF: 1:05:21 You know, because it again. One, you are doing something, I think that is useful. But two, it is teaching. And teaching the young is just a wonderful thing. IG: 1:05:39 It is, it is, even when you were young and you are teaching. NF: 1:05:44 Yes-yes-yes. IG: 1:05:45 It is still a wonderful thing. It is still a wonderful thing. So, I think that we can conclude our conversation, and I thank you very much for a content full discussion, something to- NF: 1:06:07 Thank you. IG: 1:06:08 Thank you for- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Neal M. Friedberg Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixites alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Friedberg, Neal M ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Neal retired in 2018 from his 49-year practice as a physician-hematologist in New York City. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-05-31 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Neal Friedberg.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-05-31 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 66:08 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/90031e42d659c7ca5763871875ca4ba3.jpg 1ff1ff891becf40006356538fb2095e6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/26f2707fd361354719492264d3886f2c.mp3 6269af5d5e862c9fac359acd0a5b5963 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-07-08 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Steven Diner Year of Graduation 1966 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text University Professor Steven Diner is a Harpur College alumn who went on to work as a Professor of History at George Mason University and served as Chancellor from 2002 - 2011 at Rutgers University- Newark. As a History Professor at Rutgers, Dr. Diner specializes in immigration reform. In 2011 Diner was the inaugural recipient of an award named in his honor by the Rutgers Institute for Ethical Leadership for demonstrating a long-term commitment to 'strengthening civil society through ethical leadership.' Dr. Diner has published two books and numerous articles on higher education and public policy. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Steven Diner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Diner, Steven ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource University Professor Steven Diner is a Harpur College alumn who went on to work as a Professor of History at George Mason University and served as Chancellor from 2002 - 2011 at Rutgers University- Newark. As a History Professor at Rutgers, Dr. Diner specializes in immigration reform. In 2011 Diner was the inaugural recipient of an award named in his honor by the Rutgers Institute for Ethical Leadership for demonstrating a long-term commitment to 'strengthening civil society through ethical leadership.' Dr. Diner has published two books and numerous articles on higher education and public policy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07-08 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Dr. Steven Diner.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-07-08 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 70:02 minutes IIIF Item Metadata UUID fca0a349-cc9a-4a72-968d-aa8e5302782f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a20bfab336130e2d75a3d55096806bd2.mp3 cf30ae8b5895e45b5a0213d13473c3d6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8aefb28975d00d4430b87c7dd1f8a7d6.jpg 92a76cb3569cb5b59109f0ede92c6a46 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-13 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ellyn Uram Kaschak Year of Graduation 1965 Biographical Text Dr. Ellyn Kaschak is an award-winning psychologist, author, teacher and human rights activist. She is a professor emerita of psychology at San Jose State University. She teaches in the gender studies program at University for Peace in Costa Rica. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Ellyn Uram Kaschak Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 13 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Up to you. We can either try to get you on Skype, or we can just do this over the phone. EK: 00:09 Okay, either way, or we can go on FaceTime. You guys [inaudible] FaceTime IG: 00:16 Uh, FaceTime? No, I am here with my colleague, Aynur de Rouen, and so say hello. Third speaker 00:28 Hello. How are you? IG: 00:29 Who is the- yeah, she is the project manager for the oral history project. So should I give you a little bit of overview of what the oral history project is, or should we just plunge into the interview? EK: 00:46 Why do not you give me a short review? IG: 00:48 Okay, so the short review is that we-we are creating a virtual center for the study of the (19)60s. It will exist to promote scholarship on this important decade. And- EK: 01:10 Okay. IG: 01:10 -so we have collections of audio recordings, um, different collections. So one collection is a you is a set of 200 of interviews with 275 prominent leaders from the 1960s representing a range of political affiliations. So we have everyone from yippies to, you know, civil rights leaders like John Lewis and Shirley Chisholm, and there are people who were anti-war activists, as well as Vietnam vets who, you know, willingly went to this war. So that is one collection. The other collection is the collect, you know, the project that you are participating in, and that is a set of oral history interviews with alumni of Harpur College from the 1960s and it is to give. So it is to give a look back on what your experience at Harpur was like and how you perceived the events around you so the larger perspective. So these are, you know, these are tapes right now for oral history that will be transcribed, digitized and placed, excerpted, placed online. We have to ask you for your permission to- Third speaker 02:42 -consent form, and I can email to you. You can either sign it and email back to me, or, if you prefer, I can send it via mail with a paid envelope. So it would be maybe easier for you. Do you want me to do that way? To do that. EK: 03:20 Email is easiest for me. Third speaker 03:22 Email is easy. Okay, I will I will email to you, then EK: 03:27 You will never find me if you should not stand there. Third speaker 03:29 Okay, all right, I will send you an email after the interview this afternoon. IG: 03:35 Okay. EK: 03:36 Okay, good. IG: 03:37 Okay, so are we ready to start? EK: 03:41 Yes, okay, I do not know what is wrong with it. IG: 03:46 It is okay. That is okay. EK: 03:48 So keep going this way. I guess. IG: 03:49 Let us, let us go this way. Okay, so Ellyn, tell- first of all, you need to identify yourself and tell us who you are, where you are and what you are doing by participating in this interview. EK: 04:10 Okay, so this is the actual interview. IG: 04:13 Yes, yes. EK: 04:16 Okay, I am Ellyn Kaschak, and I was a student at Harpur from 1961 to 1965 so I hope it does not mess up the tape too much. So I just sent John, and he said he'd welcome over to somebody a bunch of photographs from the 1960s of the dorms and articles, you know, invitations to dances and things like that that is going on. IG: 04:50 Okay. Do you know who you sent this to? EK: 04:54 I sent it to John. IG: 04:55 I see, I see. EK: 04:56 John um- IG: 04:59 Cook-Cook. EK: 05:00 John Cook. IG: 05:01 Yes. EK: 05:03 And he said he walked him over to the library so somebody has them. IG: 05:07 Okay, I will get them from him. EK: 05:09 And there is a whole bunch of, there is a whole bunch of little odd names from dancers. And I do not know if they still have it, but they used to have the vacation, stepping on the coat ceremony in the spring. IG: 05:22 Oh, that is wonderful. Okay, so you please tell us you want, what is your age? Where are you speaking? Where are you physically located right now? And tell us that you are, you know, participating in this oral history interview. EK: 05:42 I am seventy-four years old. I have been a professor at San Jose State for many years. [coughs] IG: 05:55 We will, we will, but we did not catch what you said last you are 74 years old, and EK: 06:05 I, when I graduated from Harpur, [inaudible] is George Washington University, I see where I got a master's degree in clinical psychology- IG: 06:13 I see. EK: 06:13 -from there, they were not hired at Union, and I could not get a job, and they were not taking union into the PhD programs, even though I was a top of my class. And so I was told that I could not get a PhD because it was a waste of money. And you know, when I would just stay home and have babies? So I worked in DC for a couple of years as a school psychologist, and then times started changing, and I went back to school at Ohio State, got a doctorate, and came out to California to do my internship at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Palo Alto, and then I got a job at San Jose State as a clinical psychologist at a community psychologist. And I stayed there for my whole career, until I retired. IG: 07:02 Okay, so where was that at what state at California state? EK: 07:07 San Jose. San Jose. Oh, San Jose State University. IG: 07:12 State University. I know where that is. EK: 07:15 Yeah. That is right in the middle of Silicon Valley stuff. IG: 07:20 Yes-yes-yes. EK: 07:21 It was [inaudible] and I went there. IG: 07:24 Yeah, I could imagine. So just let us backtrack now to your early life and tell us where you grew up. Where are you from? EK: 07:39 I am from Brooklyn. IG: 07:41 Oh, well, where- EK: 07:44 I spent a few years in Valley Stream before I left, but mostly Brooklyn. IG: 07:47 Where in Brooklyn, if you do not mind my asking. EK: 07:53 Coney Island. IG: 07:54 Oh, I know where that is. So, who were your parents? What did they do? EK: 08:04 My parents were first generation Americans, and they were Celia and Bernard Uram, and they just kicked around and did a lot of things and fun. [coughs] Oh, I apologize. Finally, my father, after I was out of the house, when I was in my 20s, opened a successful business. So- IG: 08:35 Excuse me, a what business? EK: 08:37 A successful business. It was called [inaudible] stores, and it sold [inaudible], it was a discount store. IG: 08:43 Okay. And you said that your parents were first generation from where? EK: 08:50 Well, my grandparents came from Eastern Europe, and they came in 1900s to get away from the [inaudible], so way before Hitler and from Russia and the Austro-Hungarian empire. IG: 09:05 Okay, all right, did your parents go to college? EK: 09:11 No, they just barely finished high school. They had no interest in my going to college, or anybody going to college. They did not even know what it was, and I was the one that consisted on an education. So that was the early days of the scholarships before the government shriveled them. So after the New York State using scholarship and I needed to go someplace inexpensive, of good quality inside New York. So that became Harpur. IG: 09:46 Um, so, how did you persuade your parents to let you go to college? EK: 09:52 Well, I did not. I just went. [inaudible] on me. IG: 09:56 Okay, so, um, uh, you know, so- EK: 10:02 I had the scholarship. I paid for everything myself, and I practiced increasingly, I went to college. IG: 10:09 Well that is, that is very bold, very courageous of you. EK: 10:13 I am bold. IG: 10:14 Bold, courageous. So, um, so EK: 10:20 Like- what I wanted. I did not want to like it. You know, sitting in Brooklyn, owning somebody's children. IG: 10:27 I see. So did you have siblings? Do you have siblings? EK: 10:32 Yes, I did. I have two younger siblings. My sister is three years younger. She eventually went to Stony Brook, and my brother is a high school graduate. IG: 10:42 I see, so did he go into the family business? EK: 10:49 He did not. He had, psychological problems. So he has not worked. IG: 10:55 I see, I understand. So you decided to go to Harpur because of its affordability and because of its reputation? What was the reputation of the college back then? EK: 11:09 The reputation of Harpur was that it was the [inaudible] public schools. It had a great reputation, and it was really just starting up. I do not know how it got a good reputation so fast. So they have just been Triple Cities College a few years before. IG: 11:28 So did you learn about this from your friends, from your academic advisor? Do you remember? EK: 11:37 I do not remember. I needed a lot of research myself, but also had a pretty good values counselor, so you probably helped me. IG: 11:44 Okay and you financed your own education. What did you work during your college education or during the summers? When did you make money? EK: 11:59 I always worked during the summers, and once in a while, I worked during the semesters in the cafeteria, you know, cleaning up the trays in the cafeteria. IG: 12:10 Okay. EK: 12:12 I mean, the campus. I was just here; the campus looks very different. There was one cafeteria, and everybody had to eat on campus. IG: 12:21 What were your first impressions a city girl from Brooklyn, from Coney Island, coming to really the boondocks. So what did you think? EK: 12:39 In the first place, my father was one of those guys that would not use a map, so he drove to Albany and went to the left turn to get to Binghamton. So it took us two days. We pulled up, and it was nothing but mud. There were two, three buildings and mud. "Are you horrified?" I said, "Take me home. I do not be here." And they had not finished the dorms. There were only two dorms, two girls dorms and two guys dorms, and they had not finished them. So they had us tripled up in the dorms for the first semester. So it was, I guess it was after the [inaudible] in a lot of ways. IG: 13:22 So how-how long did it take you to acclimate to these new surroundings, and what helped you? EK: 13:34 Well, it took me a few weeks. I was really depressed in the beginning, and then I started to meet people. I had a boyfriend. I met friends who were also from New York. There was an extreme divide. I do not know if this still is, between the upstate and the downstate students. IG: 13:52 There was a big difference? EK: 13:55 A huge difference. So the downstate students were my friends. They were familiar to me. They were also from Brooklyn or Long Island or the smartest kids in their class and so on. The upstate students were also very [inaudible] were the smartest students I have ever met at any school that I have gone to, and they were smarter than a lot of the faculty where I taught. So I like that. The upstate students were just industrious. They just studied all the time. So the first two roommates that I had, were set the alarm o'clock for six o'clock in the morning, go to the cafeteria, have breakfast and begin studying before their classes. The first time I have ever seen people study like that. IG: 14:43 What were some cultural differences, if any, between the upstate and downstate students? Could you remember any anecdotes? EK: 14:54 Um, the upstate students went to church on Sunday morning, early [inaudible], and they would, they got in couples or in friendship groups, and only used to study in the state union of the library and then study from morning to night. IG: 15:19 And but you, you must have studied as well. I mean, what was your experience of academics at Harpur? How did you- did not you find it rigorous, or did- EK: 15:35 Much more rigorous than anything I had done before. And so I did study, and I wanted to be a psychologist, but the Psychology Department only did rat psychology. The 1960s was the height of Skinnerian psychology, so that meant you studied rats and boxes and not people. So I will tell you an anecdote. We do not have to live for three hours every week, and they eat a little like closet with your rat. Your rat had a fresh bar to get food. I do not know if you are familiar with those kinds of studies. That is Skinnerian psychology, and I became so bored because my rat was asleep. It turns out that rats are not trainer animals, so they sleep all day. So nobody saw the rat in setting up the labs. So I took a pencil and I poked my rat to get it to wake up and do the study psychopaths, of course, and rats [inaudible] with me. And so I went to the whatever it was in the nurse's station at the Student Union. I got a tetanus shot, and I dropped psychology, and I majored in foreign languages. IG: 16:53 What, um. That is very interesting. It echoes some of the experiences of other alumni who studied psychology. They also complained about rat psychology. EK: 17:08 There was no people psychology at all. You could forget about it if you went to that and I wound up majoring in Russian language and literature, which I think was a good start for being a psychologist. Anyway, Dostoevsky, Chekov all of them. IG: 17:24 Yes-yes. That is what I studied as well. EK: 17:28 Did you? IG: 17:29 Yes. EK: 17:29 So as a result, I mean, Russia is coming back before the Russian maybe it will be useful. IG: 17:36 Perhaps. EK: 17:37 An interesting topic to study. IG: 17:40 It is an interesting without question. It is an interesting topic to study. It is an interest. It is a rich literature to study. So you nonetheless, so um, so you were disappointed with sort of the direction of psychology courses. How did you find the Russian literature courses who were some of your professors? EK: 18:08 You know, they had the early professors there that we still had moved over from the community college, so I had, we used to call them by their last names [inaudible] they did not have doctorates, but they were both from Russia, and from [inaudible] IG: 18:37 I see, I see. So you know, how was that? IG: 18:43 It was the Russian department. IG: 18:45 That was the Russian department. How did you find your experience? EK: 18:50 I love languages, so I found it very interesting. IG: 18:53 Did they teach- EK: 18:55 And Russian was much more difficult in psychology, because we had to read War and Peace and all that in the original. IG: 19:02 Really, you read- EK: 19:04 I am probably the only person you know that read War and Peace in the original, but I still have the book. It was a tremendous effort. IG: 19:16 That is, I could imagine, that is extremely impressive. That is an education in itself. EK: 19:21 It was. And then when I finally went back to psychology at Northern Washington University in the people psychology, you still had to take your, you still had to take nine years exams to get an advanced degree. And I took my English, and was a beast. IG: 19:40 I could imagine after reading War and Peace in its entirety, you probably did better. You probably knew more than a lot of the faculty, the Russian faculty there. EK: 19:54 Probably I do not recommend it. I mean, it is really origins, but I need to learn a lot. I was very happy with the major, because I got to know languages, and then I did psychology later on, and it really showed me instead, because of the rigorousness of Harpur, is what really changed me. I was from one of those school [inaudible] in high school. It really changed me into taking education really seriously and studying and being prepared and so on. IG: 20:25 So um, you um, studied Russian very intensively. You worked in the cafeteria and in the summers to pay your way through college. But you- did you participate in residential life? What was that like for you? EK: 20:49 Residential life was not much. We had, you know, that was we had a paid-telephone in the hall, and that was the only telephone so everybody's boyfriends would go in in the evening, we had a curfew. I believe it was 10:30. There was a curfew for the girls, not for the guys. So everybody would say good night at 10:30 and then the phone would start ringing. But there was only one phone, and so residential life, as I remember it now, revolve around a lot, around the [inaudible], and what fraternity did he belong to, and what dances you went to, and things like that. IG: 21:31 And you mentioned you had a boyfriend. EK: 21:35 Yes, I did. IG: 21:35 And so what-what life did he expose you? EK: 21:42 He, um [inaudible] is actually his name. I kept his name. [inaudible] Uram was actually my family's name. IG: 21:53 Oh, that is very interesting. EK: 21:56 So and I just actually saw his sister for the first time. And, I do not know how many years, I just did a TED talk last year. I hope maybe you were there. IG: 22:10 I know I was not there. I so I miss your talk. So- EK: 22:19 I just saw her for the first time in years, and his parents had gone, but she still felt like family to me. So he was a townie, what we used to call a townie, yes. Oh, and he commuted, and he lived at home with his parents. So being that he commuted, they got him a car. So that was like the epitome he had a car. We could go places. We could go out on dates. He we used to drive all over upstate New York. I do not know if [inaudible] still there. It was a monastery. IG: 22:56 Yes, I visited it. EK: 22:58 It was a beautiful experience. It is like we used to do things like that quite a bit together, especially on the weekends. And he studied and also worked this whole time [inaudible]. And his mother worked in- as a waitress in the Arlington Hotel. I do not know if it is still there. Third speaker 23:21 What hotel? EK: 23:21 It was one of those ugly buildings, and she gave him all his money so he could go out and date and do things like that. So we had a pretty good time. And I was close to his family, because they were right there. So I go spend Christmas with the family and so on. And most of the activities centered around what they called Men's social clubs. They did not have fraternities. There was no football they were going to be principal and not have a football team, not have fraternities and so on. So but they had men's social clubs. And so most of the activities were for [inaudible] and then on social clubs, and then the big dances. EK: 23:21 The Arlington hotel, it was downtown. Third speaker 23:21 No, I do not know. Third speaker 24:08 I have a question. So how did you feel about having a curfew because boys did not have it, girls had it. So how did it make you feel about it? EK: 24:21 You know, we did not question it that much of the time. It was 1961. Boys could and also the boys could live off campus. And we did not like it that we were not, you know, like we'd [inaudible] know about it. And a lot of the girls used to sneak out after they did it, they did a great check at 10:30 and then they climb out the window and go over to their boyfriend's place. EK: 24:42 So, it was accepted that the way girls had to be treated, and it was a little bit of a joke, because the idea was, you know, you told me you cannot get pregnant before 10:30. You know, so it was a little bit of a joke, but we took it kind of as a joke. Nobody took it that seriously. Nobody was strongly into feminism or anything. EK: 24:42 Yeah, it is interesting. IG: 25:11 Was that was feminism or the women's right movement in the air at all? EK: 25:20 Not in Binghamton. IG: 25:22 But at Harpur? EK: 25:25 No-no, not really, not really. We had some very interesting guests that came and talked to us. And so there was a lot of politics in the air, mostly Vietnam politics. [inaudible] good news. He was a very well-known writer, and he came to campus. And when the Roosevelt came to campus and he did not have any money, she charged a lot of money, and one of the student leaders told me, we do not have money left to [inaudible] And she [inaudible] limousine one day and hung out with everybody. IG: 26:04 That is great. That is great. EK: 26:06 But there was not much about feminism. The females were all there to get to get a husband and a degree. IG: 26:19 Well, you found it you know your boyfriend, and then who became your husband. Were there? Was there anxiety about the Vietnam War, and how did it express itself? And as his- EK: 26:36 Tremendous anxiety about the Vietnam War, because that was the age of the guys that were getting drafted. And so there were two ways not to get drafted. And one used to go to graduate school. [inaudible] to get in and keep studying, and the other was to get married. So a lot of people were getting married to keep the guy out of the war. A lot of my friends got married last year, and also the pill have just come out control, a- EK: 27:11 Birth control. EK: 27:12 So a lot of them, you know, even technical version in those days, the technical discussion how old you are now? IG: 27:22 Well, [crosstalk] I see, I see. EK: 27:27 And so a lot of the girls once they decided marrying a guy,[coughs] [inaudible] enjoy birth control, so they got pregnant, and the girls dropped out of the guy finished school. So a lot of my female friends went home last year to have their babies. IG: 27:50 Unmarried or married? EK: 27:51 Married, they slept with the guy only because he became engaged and they knew he was the one they were going to marry. Otherwise, she did not have sex with anybody. [inaudible] marry him, then the sexual thing has changed drastically. IG: 28:07 Yes, I agree. So was- were you involved at all in student activism, was there were any of your friends involved in student activism, and what was the nature of that? EK: 28:29 Listen very much. There was a small group of students from the city that were involved in activism, and most people mostly people, I think, kept themselves into their own group. IG: 28:49 So- EK: 28:49 And some-some activism in that Vietnam and that was all these, nothing, I remember, nothing about feminism. IG: 29:01 What about the Civil Rights Movement? EK: 29:04 Well, the civil rights movement, yes, definitely, and we will let anybody who went in March, I met, I actually worked on Shirley Chisholm presidential campaign that was already in California. IG: 29:19 That is very interesting. [crosstalk] yeah, she is one of the people we have interviewed in our 60s collection. EK: 29:34 She was not really the first woman to do anything, and she really was a tough woman, history [inaudible] president. Then I was already in California, doing my internship. And once I got to California, I got I was not very aware of politics. I was just doing my own life. And when I was at Hartford, once I got to California, there was civil rights. It was Vietnam, there was black people running for offices, all kinds of stuff, and there was the abortion coalition. That was the first big issue of feminism. IG: 30:10 Was that in the (19)70s, when did you get to California? EK: 30:15 Got to California in the late (19)60s, maybe 1968 and they had started. I was in Ohio. Oh, I know- Ohio until 1968 studying psychology, and that is when the consciousness raising groups began. And so we all got ourselves in the consciousness raising group, and all became feminists, and there were no courses in psychology of women at all. They let us organize someone and teach without a faculty member, but all the faculty were men, and they did not have any idea what we were doing. So when I became a feminist, it was in the mid (19)60s. I had already, I was maybe four years out of Harpur. I was not going on while I was in Harpur. IG: 31:17 So there were no- you did not really have that much of a political awareness at that time at Harpur? EK: 31:31 [crosstalk] interested in learning and in having fun- EK: 31:38 -and that is the way I use race, that you pay attention to your own life and you do not get involved in this other stuff. My entire family is still that way. I am the only one who's political, and I became very political. I wrote in several books on [inaudible] psychology. IG: 31:38 In having fun. IG: 31:54 That is remarkable. What did you think owes to this? You know, radical departure from the way you were brought up. Is it the academic experience that you were exposed to, or what-what do you think contributed to your enlightenment? EK: 32:18 I think I academically studied and just like they call it quickly, study this stuff, and all of a sudden you realize that this is not a normal world. This is a world that you will be impressed. And so that moment, it just feels normal. Well, of course, blacks cannot go into places that whites go into. And you know, I looked at in the south, so I never really saw that. But, you know, females cannot be used, men keeping it and so on. And all of a sudden, you read the material, and there is a huge quick in your head, and you see that it is not normal, and it is not just the way the world is, the way the world will be constructed. And once you see that, you see it can all be reconstructed and reconstructed, and you know, the same again. IG: 33:09 Did you that is very interesting. Did you learn any of these intellectual skills? Do you believe at Harpur College? Did you get any of the sort of, you know, foundational, you know, intellectual, intellectual foundation for this, to make that leap? EK: 33:34 I would say, not in the sense of content, but in the sense of thought process. Because what I began to do the work that I do, I was not a therapist for too long, even though I studied therapy, but what I write is epistemology and philosophy of science. So what I wanted to do was to ask the questions. And that is what those fields are. You know, why? How do we know what we know? Is it makes a question of epistemology, and I have written several books on that topic. And I just, I actually just wrote one of the blind people who are, how do they understand gender and race? And that was my question. How do they know what they know they cannot see skin color. They cannot see any other stuff. Yet, they really need to know about all those things. IG: 34:27 So I am just curious. So how do they know? How do they perceive race? EK: 34:33 They asked their friends, you see, when I started writing the book, I was hoping that they were going to have a different system, not that they were not going to discriminate, because they were human beings, but they were going to have a different system, maybe touch, maybe something else. No, they go around and they ask their friends and then have this whole elaborate way of asking, like, if they go to a bar and they need a woman there. Her, they have a similar [inaudible], and when he shakes hands to tell them if she is pretty or ugly, so they know whether to go out with her. IG: 35:10 But they must have experienced discrimination themselves. EK: 35:15 You know, many of them did not, because they went to schools and they were all mixed together. I mean, they got to the A's when they started dating, they would bring home a boy, and the mother would say, you cannot date that boy. He is not of your race. And that is when they started learning. IG: 35:32 I see. Was there, yeah- EK: 35:36 Very startling to read about how they learn about race and gender and sexual orientation. We have a lot of stuff about transgender going on now, and they cannot tell the difference because the voice is the same. So the transgender things that are going on are just visual. And so I came to realize how much of our society is an issue. IG: 36:03 That is, that is very That is fascinating. EK: 36:09 That is actually what my Tiktok was on. It is unusual. IG: 36:14 I-I will look at it after we speak. But returning to Harpur College, did you feel that there were groups, you know, or individuals that were discriminated? Did you have, well, you probably did not have this idea of discrimination per se, but did you feel that it was there was, you know, maybe less of it because it was a homogeneous community, or was there any, any kind of discrimination on campus? EK: 36:53 There was not much. The students from downstate were almost 100 percent Jewish. Ones from upstate were almost 100 percent capital Protestant. EK: 36:58 They did not mix with each other. They did not think about marrying each other. I had friends that I do not know if you have spoken to Dolores Chapel yet. IG: 36:58 Yeah. IG: 37:09 No. EK: 37:11 She knows she is [inaudible]. IG: 37:13 Yeah, I am writing down her name. Okay. EK: 37:16 She was somebody that used to speak to; she was married to Giles Hoyt and he became a German professor. She was growing another guy ever since high school from her hometown, which was Tonawanda. When it got time to marry, she converted Catholicism, and they broke up after 10 years of dating, and she married somebody else, sure he did too. So the big discrimination was between religions, and it was not just Jewish and Catholic and Protestant, also. the, uh, I do not believe there were any other groups on campus. Everybody was white. Two men who came from Barbados and must have been on scholarship. So they were not Americans, and they did not stay very long. What happened is that one of my friends began dating, one of them, and her father happened to be a photographer, and so she sent, she only sent her pictures home to be developed. Remember, they used to develop pictures. He saw that she was sitting on the lap of a black man, and he pulled her out of school and made her come to Hofstra so and there were two black men. There were maybe 400 students in each class, if I remember correctly, and everybody else was white, if you consider [inaudible] used to be white. IG: 38:55 I am laughing. And yet, Ellyn, you married, you know, someone who was a townie. I married a Catholic boy. So isn't that kind of a very rebellious, you know, decision to have made, and- EK: 39:18 Yes. You seem to getting to know me, I was not rebellious, I just do what I want to do. And especially then, it was like that. And also, I had dated him for four years, but my family should have been ready for it. IG: 39:33 Right. Have they? EK: 39:34 You know, I met him in freshman year. IG: 39:37 Yeah, had they met him? EK: 39:39 But neither of us had any particular variation. IG: 39:49 So did you encounter any resistance from either of the families? EK: 39:56 My family. IG: 39:57 Yeah, yeah. But you prevailed. EK: 40:04 It was not a horrible resistance to say, he knew they could not control me by that point. IG: 40:10 I-I guess not. EK: 40:13 Yeah, I was going to do what I was going to do. So we got married, and part of the reason we got married, this is a funny anecdote that you are making me think of it is they had $250 round trip. You could go to Europe for the summer. It was a shorter flight. And I said, I cannot go to Europe. I do not marry him. We cannot travel around Europe. It is not like today. And so the week before graduation, we got married, week after we went and spent some [inaudible]. IG: 40:45 I have known people to get married for lesser reasons. EK: 40:53 That is the main reason that I married him. IG: 40:56 Well, you know, if you read contemporary Soviet literature, you know, there is stories by Trifonov [Yury Trifonov] about, you know, couples marrying because somebody had a- an apartment in a prime neighborhood- EK: 41:18 Oh yeah, [inaudible] IG: 41:21 -apartment with an extra room. So-so I am curious, how do you think that your classmates remember you from Harpur College days? EK: 41:32 A lot of the people I was friendly with had graduated, most of the New York City kids who went back the second year we could not take it in Binghamton, so a lot of us did not graduate together. There are fewer in touch with Peter Carroll Oliver [inaudible] or Erin Oliver, IG: 41:53 No. EK: 41:56 Well, you missed. IG: 41:58 No. I mean, I- no, I do not. EK: 42:01 I do not know if you want to list the people in general. IG: 42:04 That would be wonderful. That would be wonderful, but I need to speak to graduates, I think. But it would be really wonderful to get a list from you. EK: 42:18 Carol graduating from there. Bruce Benderson graduated from there. He became a writer, and he lives in Paris and writes in French. IG: 42:27 Oh, wow. EK: 42:27 So he'd be an interesting guy. Yes. Carol Oliver became a one of those Maharishi people, and she lives in Iowa at Maharishi University. IG: 42:41 That is great. EK: 42:43 And, you know, there was a lot of hippie stuff going on. IG: 42:48 Was there experimentation drugs? EK: 42:56 There was not much drugs. I remember Cal gave me for a wedding present, a nickel bag of grass. To translate into current lingo, a nickel bag was like $5 worth of marijuana. That was a wedding present for me, and I had never seen it before. I did not know what to do with it. There was not much in the way of drugs. It was a lot of alcohol. IG: 43:23 A lot of alcohol. So but my question was more, what do you think that? How do you think your classmates would remember you? How do you remember yourself from that period? EK: 43:46 I remember myself as mostly being [inaudible] and his friends and studying and socializing and not being anything. So I am not sure how many of them would remember me, except the ones that I was close to. Names that I am hearing you will definitely remember me. IG: 44:10 So you are in touch with these other people? EK: 44:13 Not in touch with some of them, but some of them even come up on Facebook and see what they are doing. The reason I know about Giles and Dolores is when John first came out here with some [inaudible] he was trying to give some money to the German department or something. He was a German major, IG: 44:36 And his name is Giles? IG: 44:38 All right. EK: 44:38 And I do not think I got along with him very well, because they do not set the alarm to six o'clock in the morning to get up and study it. I was like, "Are you people crazy?" So, you know, because they had, they had fair people often with what we get along well as roommates. And when I did finally get the roommate, they had fairly rich. They were right. We did not get along. Oh, here is another funny story. Her name was, I mean, I do not know how much detail you want. Her name was Sophia Kashack, K, A, S C H, A, K, and she sat next to Bob in orientation. His name was Kaschak, and she fixed me up on a blind date with him. That is how I met him. So [inaudible] EK: 44:38 Giles G, I, L, E, S, and his last name is H, O, Y, T, and the wife [inaudible] I guess, I guess she took his name. Her name was Doris. She was my roommate. She was my first roommate. IG: 45:39 I am- And so Kaschak, how do you spell that again? K, A- EK: 45:45 My version? IG: 45:46 Your version EK: 45:47 K, A, S, C HA, K IG: 45:51 So similar to yours? With [crosstalk] yeah, I understand. So, what do you think you know kind of looking back on this experience at Harpur College, what lessons did you learn from life at this time, from this time? EK: 46:15 Well, the thing that was most important to me is how intelligent the students were, that I finally there had people I could have conversations with, you know, on the equal level, and that there were other people in the world who thought about the things that I thought about and wanted to do the things that I wanted to do. And I think that really served me a lot because that brought me out of my shell. In some way, it made me realize all the things that was possible to do. So in some ways, I would say there were a few good faculty members, but mostly it was the other students for me. IG: 47:00 And you were kind of, you found yourself, you were coming into your own, or you were finding yourself. EK: 47:06 I was, I did find myself. I very much came into my own. My retirement on psychology. I had quite a bit of confidence and so forth. IG: 47:17 That is wonderful. EK: 47:20 I did not have that when I went to Harpur, I was just kind of beaten down and told not to go to college and get married and all that. Love to see some of those people again, but it would be a shock. I am sure you think that you look exactly the same and everybody else has changed. IG: 47:45 I am sure that there would be there you would find common ground if you were friends during your formative years at college, I think that there would be a connection still. EK: 47:57 I think so too. And a lot of them went on to be writers, and a couple of them from, you know, in Hollywood, Richie Cunningham and what is the other guy's name, there were a few graduates eventually- the usual audience are very-very big Hollywood producers, Rob Reiner and people that you would know. IG: 48:27 Wow. It would be so helpful. So to get a list, a short list, EK: 48:35 You do not have those names. IG: 48:36 I have those names, but I cannot identify them from lists of hundreds of people. So if you [crosstalk] I just have a whole directory. And the year they graduate I do not have, I-I- you know, you are pinpointing the people that would be very interesting for me to talk to, and I think for posterity, to have- EK: 48:59 Yeah, people that went on to be very well known in Hollywood, to be very good writers. I cannot think of that. It is not coming to me right now, but it will. IG: 49:09 Okay that it would be really great. So you know, for-for someone listening to this tape. And you know, considering-considering, you know, the considering going to Binghamton University in just in a future generation. What could you tell this prospective student about your experience and about-about what are the most important lessons that you have learned in life that relate to education? EK: 49:52 You know, it is hard for me to say, because Binghamton is so different. It was like a small I wanted a small college room. I would get to know everybody, and it would be like a community, and that is what it was. And now I do not even know any people that were there, but it is overwhelming to come to the campus. I was extremely impressed. John took me around, but it seems like they have a lot of really fascinating opportunities and summer programs and things like that that I was very impressed with, and I still think the students are very bright. EK: 50:27 Yeah. EK: 50:27 I think it is very important. I do not know. I cannot, I cannot really say, because I was there for two days. I think it is very important. From what I understand, the faculty is very good right now. Also, I met Russian Studies faculty, that is kind of what I am interested in. And I met Don and Harvey and [inaudible] studies faculty, Liam Mueller and whatever it is, and they are very enthusiastic and very motivating. But I think at least for me, the most important thing were the other students, the first time in my life, the other students were as smart as I was, and able to have the conversations I wanted to have, and that is really what changed me. EK: 51:18 But I could not hear it now. EK: 51:28 It does not even does not even look the same. IG: 51:30 Yeah. EK: 51:30 You will see some of the pictures because they sent a picture of the student union and the old dorms, which I can go offices now. And it is a completely different place. It would be hard for me to comment on it now. I think it is a top education. IG: 51:44 Yes, that is a wonderful plug, but your criticism or your advice to future administrations is to have a greater diversity of students and faculty. Is that it? EK: 52:01 I think they have it now, I looked at it when I was there. IG: 52:04 Yes, okay. EK: 52:06 I was just there last March when I did the TED talk and I said, "Oh my god, they have every city, every color, every other people." I think they have done it. IG: 52:15 They have done it. EK: 52:16 Without my advice, IG: 52:17 Without your advice. EK: 52:21 Because the world has changed so much. IG: 52:23 Yes, it has. EK: 52:25 You know, you cannot do that. IG: 52:28 I have. EK: 52:29 I was very impressed by the administrators and the faculty that I met. I met a few students because I gave a scholarship for summer work with women. So I met that student and some of the students had questions. They came to talk to me. IG: 52:44 That is wonderful. Any concluding remarks? Ellyn, I know that you are braving your cold so we can end now after an hour, but I would like to ask you if you had if you have any concluding thoughts or remarks, EK: 53:08 [inaudible] and also feel free to call me again when I am not sick, if you need other comments or other names or something. I am just getting over that horrible [inaudible]. So that is what this caution is about. I live in, oh, I live in Costa Rica now. IG: 53:28 Oh, that is incredible. EK: 53:31 Just here for a few weeks to take care of taxes and business. And so I went down to Costa Rica when I was in George Washington, and got to know the place, and I have been teaching there and training students and training therapists throughout probably four decades. In addition to being here, I split my time. IG: 53:50 So what are, what are the university that you are teaching at in Costa Rica? EK: 53:57 It is called the University for Peace, and it is the United Nations campus. There are four of them in the world. They bring students in from- this is how much I changed from back then. They bring students in from all over the world, and they teach them skills that hopefully are, you know, conflict resolution, and skills that are hopefully helpful in bringing about peace. And they send them back to their countries. They become diplomats, they become presidents of their countries, and it is one way to try to bring about peace. And they are wonderful students. IG: 54:32 That is wonderful. And what do you teach them? You teach them what? EK: 54:38 I teach gender and peace. My- I have got my [inaudible] to be, you know, gender and ethnicity and sexual orientation, pretty much, but as a clinical psychologist, so I teach them those topics and how they handle their peace issues. IG: 54:55 What a wonderful life. EK: 54:58 It is fabulous. I love it there. It turned out to be [inaudible]. And I keep writing I just have a look at so- I could say that about Harpur also got me started on exactly the life I wanted to have and I was meant to have. IG: 55:14 That is very gratifying to hear. EK: 55:18 And I am thinking now about getting some kind of donation to a program, because I am really grateful that they starting out. IG: 55:25 Well, I if-if I can, I will pass that information to John Koch, and he will be delighted. I am sure. EK: 55:35 I have noticed him very well. I have met with him several times, working on what project I can do. He is a lovely man. IG: 55:41 I will, I will let him know. EK: 55:45 Okay, and if you need to find me, yeah, like an ocean sound, okay? IG: 55:50 I will. I will, in a few days, I will email you for those names. I taken some down, but I, I am, I will, I will do a follow up, EK: 56:02 Okay, and take the coughing out of my tape. IG: 56:04 I will, we will, we will. Okay, thank you so much. EK: 56:12 Happy to talk to you again anytime you want to. IG: 56:15 Thank you so much. Get better soon. EK: 56:18 Thank you. IG: 56:19 Bye, bye. Take care. Bye, bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ellyn Uram Kaschak Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Ellyn Kaschak is an award-winning psychologist, author, teacher and human rights activist. She is a professor emerita of psychology at San Jose State University. She teaches in the gender studies program at University for Peace in Costa Rica. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaschak, Ellyn Uram ; Gashurov, Irene Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Ellyn Kaschak.mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Language A language of the resource eng Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-02-13 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 56:23 minutes Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce2e627f2a8747c7261af291eea4cf86.mp3 cb2f41afd3d39e075bd7a07f07ebedeb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/561c2d66ff533bb20b5a79f09156802b.jpg 9d6a1bea7886138291f5211f75838f61 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-04-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eric Lobenfeld Year of Graduation 1971 Biographical Text A ’71 graduate who majored in philosophy, Eric is a partner in Hogan Lovells US LLP in New York City. He specializes in intellectual property litigation. He served on the Board of the Harpur Law Council. At Harpur College he worked at WHRW as a disc jockey. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eric Lobenfeld Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lobenfeld, Eric ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A ’71 graduate who majored in philosophy, Eric is a partner in Hogan Lovells US LLP in New York City. He specializes in intellectual property litigation. He served on the Board of the Harpur Law Council. At Harpur College he worked at WHRW as a disc jockey. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Eric Lobenfeld.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:58 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3326816391c47bf63770ea3f84865d36.jpg ba8814e0ae3c7aaa48a11bd005dc805d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e4f38486a3645fdc074329bdb0341a4e.mp3 4250a85d1d0aa18e91c9fec8f737afe7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-12-21 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fred Neil Peck Year of Graduation 1966 Biographical Text Fred Neil Peck of Long Island graduated from Harbor College in 1966 with a degree in biology, where he was actively involved in athletics and fraternity life. He later earned a master’s degree from SUNY Albany and a PhD in economics from NYU, reflecting a shift in his academic focus from the sciences to economics. Peck began his career at First Boston Corporation, where he provided economic forecasting and client services. He later transitioned into education, teaching at Hofstra University before moving into the New York City public school system, where he worked in Special Education Administration. He is married, has three sons, and resides in the New York City area. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Fred Neil Peck Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 21 December 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay, we are on. FP: 00:03 Good morning. I am Fred Peck. I graduated from Harpur College in 1966. Uh, and I am sitting here with Irene Gashurov at the SUNY Global Center at 116 East 55th Street, Manhattan. I do not get into Manhattan quite as often as I used to. I spent 40 years commuting daily into Manhattan, and this is the first time in months that I have dealt with traffic on the FDR Drive. In any case, we are here to talk about my experience in the 1960s. IG: 00:49 Very good, very good. Thank you for that introduction. So let us begin with the beginning. And so, where did you grow up? FP: 00:58 Well, the beginning for me was the Brownsville section of Brooklyn. My family lived in by that time, already, century old, four story or five-story walk-up on Sterling Place near Howard Avenue in Brooklyn. But shortly thereafter, we moved into brand new, a brand-new home, a brand-new apartment building in Canarsie, where we lived for a few short years before moving to Long Island. So, I moved to Long Island at the age of seven. I have some memories of life from Brooklyn, but for the most part, I consider myself a Long Islander. I grew up from second grade through high school on Long Island, and my family lived there- IG: 01:56 Where? FP: 01:56 -many, many years in Hicksville, Hicksville, and today, I still have one sister. I have four sisters and a brother. One of my sisters still lives on Long Island. Another lives in Brooklyn. The rest of my family is scattered all over the country. I have a sister in Florida, a sister in California. My brother lives up in Massachusetts, but I remain a New Yorker, and I live in Rockland County, where I raised my family and commuted, as I say, into Manhattan for 40 years, for a couple of couple of Manhattan based careers. But I am a Long Islander. I grew up in Long Island. That is that, that is, that is. IG: 02:39 So, tell me a little bit about your family. Were your family? Who were they? What did they do? FP: 02:46 Well, my father was a small businessman. He was a butcher and owned a meat market, originally in Jackson Heights, Queens and-and then sold that business. And because he wanted to move to Long Island with his family, so he bought a shop in Massapequa, Massapequa Park. And throughout, you know, my-my youth, and right through college, graduate school, and what have you, he owned and ran that butcher shop. So, my brother and I go around telling people we were sobs, sons of butchers. In any case, yeah, we my family grew up, as I say, around that small business environment. It never occurred to me at the time, although I ultimately came to appreciate it that despite all of the aspects of running a small business successfully, that many people about which many people may be very unfamiliar, because you have got to do your own accounting, your own planning, your own marketing, and what have you. So, there is a lot that goes into it, besides the specifics of the skill of being a meat cutter, but he ran a successful business. But the key for me, that I discovered later on in life, was that his store, his business, was 15 minutes from his house. And my entire professional life, I never spent less than an hour and a half or so each way to and from work. I- so I came to really appreciate the fact that he wanted that he purchased the business close to where he wanted to live. But what that really meant, of course, was that when he left the house in the morning, we were already getting up and going to school, so we saw him in the morning. It meant that we had dinners together. He was always there in the evening. Uh so-so it really gave him a lot of time with his family. Now, my-my mother, my ours, is a sort of blended family. So, my mother passed away at a relatively young age. She was 41 years of age at that time, I had a brother and a sister. My father remarried and-and he and his wife had three additional daughters. So that is how I got three additional sisters. So a total of four sisters and a brother, um and- IG: 05:39 So, four sisters and one brother. That is the entire family. FP: 05:42 That is the entire family. The original family for me was my brother and sister, and then when he remarried, they had three additional sisters. Three half-sisters. IG: 05:53 What was the expectation in your family about education and higher education? FP: 05:57 Well, from a very early age, my mother, before she passed away, was very concerned about education. She herself had after-after graduating high school had gone on to, I guess, what you would have called Business College in those days, really secretarial and bookkeeping school. My father, on the other hand, kept in mind this was he was he matured in the 30s, depression, hard times. He left high school in order to get a job, in order to help support a family at a time when things were difficult, and there was an opportunity for him--take it or leave it. He was 16 years old. High school is high school. I can always go back to it. He never did my he was a bright fellow, but, but he never went back to finish high school. So, nevertheless, both he and my mother and my stepmother had expectations that all of their children would go to college and pursue education as a goal unto itself, as far as their interests and abilities would take them. So, I was we were never- the only pressure on us was you were in school--you might as well study and learn as much as you can and do as well as you can. But beyond that, there was never any pressure. Why are you still in graduate school? What is a PhD going to do for you? And why do not you go get a job that never entered the conversation? They were very-very supportive throughout now, as it turns out, and I am not sure specifically about each one of my siblings, but I know that my brother and I both went through school and graduate school with very little out-of-pocket expense. We all had scholarships and then later fellowships and that sort of thing. So, we were relatively fortunate. I think my parents did pay considerable sums for some of my sisters, but I do not think that was any lack of intelligence on their part. There was a there is a fairly wide spread in age, and by the mid (19)60s, funding for things like scholarships and what have you, became increasingly stingy, increasingly difficult to come by. IG: 08:46 Even in the (19)60s. FP: 08:48 Sure, by the late 60s, I mean, my brother and I both had region, New York Region scholarships as long as we went to a school within New York State, our tuition was paid for, period in those days. I mean, Harpur College tuition was, my memory serves, something on the order of $300 a year. And my-my Regent scholarship would have paid up to $750 a year for tuition, which would have been, you know, half the cost of Columbia University, for example. I mean, that is, and by the late (19)60s that started to wind down, or the eligibility became more difficult. I mean, there was a separate region scholarship examination at that time, and then later on, they switched to looking at the SATs, but-but getting funding to go to school for us turned out not to be an issue. Or my parents were not wealthy, but they would have funded our education. But turns out, it was not really necessary. I mean, room and board, if I am not mistaken, was around $500 a year. For a full 21 meal plan, 21 meals a week with a meal plan plus your room. So, my summers spent at a boy’s camp as a counselor paid for my room and board for the year. So-so the financial aspects of going to college did not in those days impose a burden, a significant burden on our family. We did not come out of school heavily in debt. Compare that to what goes on today. That was not, that was not the major criteria. The major criteria for whether you went to college in those days was whether you felt the desire to continue in school after high school, and whether it made sense to you from a career perspective, versus going to work when I graduated high school, went to work at Grumman Aircraft. I mean, there were manufacturing jobs, industries that were paying wonderful middle-class salaries, and you did not need a college degree. So. IG: 11:08 Let us just backtrack to you know, so why did you decide on Harpur College rather than a local- FP: 11:15 Okay. A lot of first of all, growing up on Long Island, the main local school was Hofstra University, Hofstra University private school. But at that time, it was a commuter school. There were no dorms [inaudible] IG: 11:30 What about Stony Brook? FP: 11:32 Well, Stony Brook was brand new. Stony Brook was maybe in 1963 when I when I went off to Binghamton, Stony Brook was an option, and many of my friends did opt that way. The major thing for me was too darn close to home. [laughs] I wanted to go further away. I knew I had to stay in New York State because I had my tuition paid for. But-but Stony Brook was just too close. I wanted to be off Long Island. I wanted to be far enough away that in an emergency, I could hop on a bus and get home. All my parents could get up to me, hopping in the car and 4.3,4, hours, but not 25 minutes away or half an hour away, that was, that is just too close. IG: 12:23 Too close. So-so you decided on Harpur College. Did you think of other- FP: 12:27 Yes. Well, in those days, I have three sons, so I went through this college application process with them, and it is conceivable my memory deceives me, but going through the process with them, I thought back to what it was like when I applied. And for them, they applied to dozens of schools. You know, they had a couple of areas of interest, and they looked into several schools that offered opportunities when I was in high school, my-my guidance counselor, first of all, again, my parents had no real experience with college, so they left it pretty much up to whatever the guidance counselor advised us. In those days, the standard recommendation was you pick a school in which you have an interest based on their programming and their location and what have you that may just be out of reach in terms of your academic standing, you may have a chance, but you reach for this guy, pick the school you would most likely choose to go to and then pick a safe school, because you want to be in school. You want to make sure you are going to be accepted. So that was the advice. So, I applied to three schools. IG: 13:51 Which were they? FP: 13:52 Well, now I applied to Queens College, which was half an hour in the other direction, but I had relatives living in Queens. I easily established New York City resident. It would have been a commuter school and but I could have established New York City residents would have, which would have meant that tuition was free in any case, so my reach of scholarship would have been irrelevant. I would have been living at home, but based on their admissions standards. It was a shoe, and it was a safe school for me. When I graduated high school, I finished well, top-top 5 percent of the class, not as big a deal as I said in those days. It was not that important to focus on your academics. I mean, we had a third of our class were in vocational programs in high school. So, a different time. IG: 14:47 Also, Hicksville was a different kind of place, right? It was- FP: 14:50 Hicksville is a blue-collar, middle blue-collar to middle class range, not a particularly wealthy community. Good school-school district, but not-not-not Scarsdale. So, but for me, getting into Queens College was a breeze. Columbia University would have been the reach. And because I wanted to, you know, picked an ivy and where was I going to go to New Jersey, go to Princeton, go-go-go to Connecticut and go to Yale, Rhode Island, go to Brown, New Hampshire, go to Dartmouth, Harvard, Boston. And then it would become expensive, and then it would have been a financial burden on my parents. So, Columbia was my reach school, you might say. And in doing some research, Harpur College, there was no Binghamton University. There was no university SUNY Binghamton, Harpur College happened to be located in the City of Binghamton. Well, actually Vestal. But they were going to experiment. Number one, it had a reputation as being a challenging school. My teachers might remember an AP Bio, my teacher said to me, "You know, if you go to Harpur, you are going to work harder than you then you will if you go to Columbia." That is what he said. IG: 14:51 Really? FP: 15:36 So, and being the competitive sort that I am, that immediately intrigued me. Number one. Number two, it would have cost my parents nothing between-between my personal savings, my summer work, and my scholarship; I was going to go to school for nothing. Colombia would have been expensive. And most especially, I selected it over a variety of schools, both State University and other upstate schools, because I was look- it is amazing why the letter H pops up. But I was looking at Hamilton, I was looking at Hobart. I was looking, you know, yeah, and Harpur-Harpur was going to start that summer with something called a trimester, so right after I graduated high school, I could immediately start college right after July 4. IG: 15:39 I see, I see. FP: 15:41 And not have to spend a summer at home. That appeals to me, get out of the house immediately. Remember it was, it was kind of crowded, and I was anxious to get it to get away. So, although the- for many trimesters was the only way they were going to get in, because in order to fill up three semesters and more fully utilize resources, it also meant quickly expanding the freshman class. So, standards were lowered somewhat. So, for many students, that might have been the only way they were going to get into Harpur. IG: 17:58 But it is also quicker, right? You finish your degree? FP: 18:01 Well, that depends on the student. You had the option of selecting two out of the three trimesters per year and take the full four years to finish your eight trimesters or eight semesters. I went straight through. I went straight through. I graduated in three years. IG: 18:18 Yeah. FP: 18:19 I graduated in three years I went straight through that is because I was having too much fun. IG: 18:26 So, what were your first impressions? FP: 18:30 Well, Harpur College is a relatively small school. IG: 18:32 Yes. FP: 18:33 When I when I got to Harpur, there were 400 students in the total freshman class of all three semesters, it was total fresh. There was a total undergraduate student body of 1600 students. There were 200 graduate students. That was the entire campus--other than the the-the gym, now the East gym, but at the time it was the gym and Newing dining hall, the old Newing dining hall, and, of course, the service buildings. IG: 19:09 Where do you mean the service building? FP: 19:10 Oh, there was a steam generator and what have you. Other than those, those were the only structures outside the brain, the entire school, all the dorms, all of the academic buildings, administration and the library, the Student Union, which in those times, at that time, was called the Student Center, was all contained within the brain. So, it was a compact school. It was a compact school, and it was a small school, so easy to get around, easy to know everybody, easy to be very involved in in school life that appealed to me greatly when I visited. IG: 19:50 Did you have an idea of what you wanted to study? FP: 19:53 Oh yes, that is the other thing about growing up in a family where you are the first generation to go to college is that there are no there are some preconceived notions, but they are rather silly--born of just simply not knowing. So, from my father's perspective, it is wonderful that you are going to college, you are going to be a physician. IG: 20:15 Right. Of course. FP: 20:16 Unless, of course, you cannot cut it. We know that that happens, in which case you will end up being a dentist. It is also the case that once you get into college, even though you were interested in the sciences in high school, it is possible that when you go to college, you may find yourself drifting off to the social sciences. So, you become an attorney. And again, if you cannot get options, you cannot. Well, if you cannot get into law school, you end up becoming an accountant, and we will forgive you, right? That is it, that is it, that is it. So-so, the world opens up when you particularly in a liberal arts framework, the whole world of opportunities that you did not even know existed opens up- Harpur College. Remember the 1960s was a decade of transition from what you might call old school technology in higher education to the new student driven programming. When I entered, there were rigid programmatic requirements. You were required to have a minor, which consisted of 12 credits or more in each of the major segments of the undergraduate program, Social Sciences, you had to have a minor in somewhere in the social sciences. In the humanities, you had to have a minor in the humanities, somewhere in the humanities and the natural sciences, you had to have a minor in the natural sciences, one of those would become your major. So, I mean, these were programmatic. Then on top of that, there were very specific course requirements for all incoming freshmen. Lit 101 and 102, Lit and Literature and Composition, 101, 102 required. Social studies, 101 was required. U, a 101, 102 two semester sequences in one of the natural sciences could have been biology, could have been chemistry, could have been physics could have been geology could have been psychology, because the psychology program at Harpur was experimental psychology, and it was in the science program. So those were requirements, and you got your when you entered, you got your course catalog, and you were told in the get go, this is the course catalog in which you are entering, your graduation requirements are from this catalog. There may be changes over the course of your time at Harpur in terms of requirements and what have you. You may opt for any newer set of requirements and or courses, but you will always be guaranteed that what you pick from this catalog will apply by the time you graduate. IG: 23:25 And you understood all of that? FP: 23:28 We received help in understanding it. Yes, our advisors were very clear this was important Harpur College graduate. The intention was that if you came to Harpur College, you were going to graduate from Harpur College. Harpur College. We do not, we do not do dropouts. That that would, that was, that was the message, it turns out, obviously, but, but the expectation was they were going to get you through, as long as you put in the effort you have been accepted, and as long as you put in the time and energy you are going to get through. IG: 24:02 So, what you were some of the so what were some of the surprises to you from the courses that took and- FP: 24:11 The biggest, the biggest surprise right off the bat, like after the first week-- again, I did very well in high school. I was top of my class very first week. Every single one of these people is just like me. They were all bright. They are all bright. The dumbest I could be the dumbest one in the class. Could be the smartest? There is not that much of a spread, or at least not noticeable. I mean, there were some brilliant people, but you would not necessarily notice it, because we were all bright. We all understood the teachers were saying. We were all able to read these classic texts and develop our skills at the exposition and the evaluation, to be sure, but-but it was, you know, it was mind blowing at the time to realize you were at the top of the class here in the middle at best. And as it turns out, I graduated near the bottom of my class. I graduated near the bottom of my class graduated on top, but out of, I think 404 students, or something like that, in my graduating class. You know, I may have been 50 from the bottom, 60 from the bottom, something like that. IG: 25:37 That is No, you know, academic success is irrelevant. FP: 25:41 It was irrelevant. It was irrelevant. The Graduate Schools loved it. Binghamton by the time I graduated, the school had such a reputation I had no problem getting to grad school. IG: 25:50 So, what were some of the academic the intellectual surprises that maybe opened your thinking, opened your mind, you know, your perception of the world that you had not. FP: 26:00 Well, let us put it this way, I entered as a biology major with the intention of going to medical school. I ended up graduating as a biology major simply because I had too many credits to walk away from it, but had a heavier than required minor in economics, and went to graduate school in economics, became an economist, never even heard of the study of economics. Never occurred to me that there was actually a theory to describe how markets, manual, produce and distribute and how and price theory and production theory, I mean, that never occurred to me. Sociology, I had heard of growing up in Samoa. I knew who Margaret Mead was when I was in high school, but I had never read it never occurred to me in a million years. It was actually an academic discipline of sociology, of studying the development and-and growth of societies and differences and what philosophy? What is philosophy? As I said, you had to have a minor in the humanities. For me, humanities, I mean, yeah, I understood taking Literature and Composition, yeah, I understood that I had to read these classic texts, okay, I had heard of Plato, so now I am reading the Republic, wonderful, yeah, okay, I knew that Socrates had, you know, had poisoned him the self under, you know, in lieu of public execution, Hemlock and-and now I am reading, you know, a third hand report of his teachings that, that sort of thing I, you know, and Dante. I mean, I guess I had heard of the Divine Comedy and what have you. But I high school. We did not, we did not read those texts. IG: 28:01 And you found all of this very engrossing or? What did you- FP: 28:06 I loved it. I was reading things that people have been reading for 1000 years, and suddenly it occurred to me, perhaps my 20th century perspective was going to glean from these texts something very different than someone than a Roman reading a Greek text. IG: 28:30 Of course. FP: 28:31 But I am reading in translation and later on, learning that those translation differences do make a difference. Nevertheless, I had my hand on history in a way that I did not even know existed or was possible. I-I was not a very worldly high school at the time. [crosstalk] So-so that philosophy, well, I will admit that you had to take a philosophy class, and I cheated as a science major. I took logic. Logic is mathematics, but itis philosophy, and so I avoided some of the more challenging philosophical classes, you know, I took Intro, I mean, I read, particularly in the Age of Enlightenment, Hume, Lock and Mills and what have you. By the way, that was what really got me into economics. It was, I did take Intro to economics, Paul Samuelson's text was the was the basis for that, for that class, but I never would have occurred to me to ultimately build a career around the study of economics until I did that intro philosophy class which I read those-those texts. IG: 30:03 And what were the ideas, the seminal ideas that opened up this field for you, what did you find so entrancing? Do you remember? FP: 30:17 For me, it was not about studying economics per se. Was not about studying markets. Was not specifically about studying theories of production or distribution. It was an approach or a discipline, to the study of human beings, to the study of humanity a particular aspect of their behavior. And you know, as a scientist, primarily, my way of thinking really required me to look at things which normally do not fall under the realm of the sciences per se, but with a scientific, disciplined approach, and economics provided that vehicle for me to study populations, to study people. A sociologists, core of you know what it is that they are studying the-the object of their study, but from a from a different approach, different set of tools to study the same behavior and characteristics of people, because I suddenly realized that I wanted to know more about what makes me think, about what makes the world think, about why life in one country is different than in another, one era in time is different than another, and there are a lot of things that account for those differences, but studying different time periods, different nations, different populations through the lens of economics provided one perspective that appealed to me and helped to explain for me why things happen the way they do, and how history unfolded the way it did, and- IG: 32:13 It is a framework from which to see the world. FP: 32:17 Yes. IG: 32:17 -see certain phenomena. FP: 32:18 That is exactly that, and that is what intrigued me, that is what led me on to them, and that all worked wonderfully right through the completion of my graduate studies, right until I started- IG: 32:29 [inaudible] to excuse me. FP: 32:30 Of course, graduation, I had to redesign my program to accommodate this new found desire, this new found course of study that was not really going to fit in with my major and still make sure I had enough time to finish up all of the requirements that I needed in my major. So that became a little bit tricky. I ended up graduating with about eight credits more than was required for graduation, just to make sure that I had enough in my major as well as fulfill my interests. And that was the other thing that was wonderful about going to a state university at the time and again. I do not really know what it is like today, but at the time you paid your tuition, you were required to take, to be a full-time student a minimum of 12 credits a semester. The recommended number was 16 credits a semester. But with your, with your advisor's permission, you could take as many as 20 credits in a semester. 18 was not unusual for a science major, because there were a lot of two credit lab classes that you could add on and amend to append to a four-credit science class. Science classes tended to be four credits. Fact, I think most classes were four credits. They were very intense. They were very long, and they met at least three times a week. So it was, it was pretty pretty-pretty intense academic preparation for whatever you chose to do when you when you graduated from Harpur College, I felt that when I graduated from Harpur College, and I believe this is true of everyone I knew, you were well grounded in the world of scholarship in the world of academia. IG: 34:48 {phone rings] I am listed as a pizza shop cross-listed it as a Domino's Pizza. So- FP: 35:04 [laughs] That is a funny story there that I am going to interject right now, since you, since you raised it, my-my first post postdoctoral- IG: 35:22 Where did you go for- FP: 35:23 NYU-NYU and I worked a- IG: 35:27 Very good economics program. FP: 35:29 Well, it was at the GBA at the Graduate School of Business Administration, now called the Stern-Stern School. And-and then I, and I was working at-at the First Boston Corporation investment banking firm. It is now Credit Suisse, First Boston and-and I had an office telephone. I do not recall precisely the number, but the area code was 212, and then the number. The number was the admissions department for UCLA, but there it is area code, 202 not 212, so here in one small digit in the area code, in the middle between twos, I got a lot of calls from prospective students asking to have application materials and catalogs and what have you sent to them? IG: 36:29 You cannot be really rude. FP: 36:30 [inaudible] Please-please redial. But this time you miss, dialed you. You dialed 212, New York City, please dial 202. [crosstalk] And whether it was students or their parents or their parents or guidance counselors, it really did not matter. I was not going to be rude. I thought it was humorous, and had my number change [crosstalk]. But so with regard to your Domino's story, in any case, yeah, everyone I knew, and I suspect to a certain extent, everyone who graduated in those days had a very well grounded, well-well informed base of-of academics that prepared them for professional school, graduate school, or any other continuation in formal learning, on the one hand, but on the other hand, despite the and we will get to this In a moment, because I know the really important part of this conversation is going to be about what life was like in the (19)60s, and in particular (19)60s at Harpur or on a college campus generally, but there was this overarching sense that the college stood in logo parentis, that is, they had a responsibility to guide us in much the same way our parents might. We really did not have quite as much independence as we thought we would, or that college students have today, and maybe more than there was more overt control over our daily lives and what have you. Then was even appropriate at the time and would certainly not fly today. And if anything, that would have been the one limiting factor on just how ready we were to enter the real world. Because once you step off into the real world, there is nobody looking out for you. Your decisions are yours. Nevertheless, the path on which all of that guidance placed you really did prepare you for the world. People could step out of school and they were ready to go to work. They-they had worked hard. You worked hard. You studied people-people. There were some dropouts, but there were also some transfers in. That is why the graduating class was the same size as the even a little bit larger than the entering freshman class, because we had transfers in as-as people moved out, or as people, people transferred, people dropped out, or they transferred to other schools. A good friend of mine after, after we completed freshman year, actually, I think it was three semesters, three trimesters. He decided he did not like being away from home. He was also a long Islander. He transferred back to Hofstra, which at time, at that time was a commuter school, because he wanted to be at home. He could not, he could not handle living away from-from home. It was a very personal thing. Everybody was a little bit different, but academically, I never regretted for a moment my-my liberal arts education number one, and the fact that I got it at Harpur College, so much so that I am intensely proud of the fact that my middle son is a legacy student. Followed in dad's footsteps, he-he has two degrees from Binghamton. He-he has a Bachelor of Arts in Physics from Harpur and a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering from Watson. He also has a PhD from MIT, but it is just a statement about the quality of preparation. Students who graduate from Binghamton are ready to do anything that is that is my opinion. IG: 40:32 Do you have any outstanding professors, or? FP: 40:35 Yeah, there were, there were a few professor Battin, Biology stood out as being a fabulous professor. Professor Norcross, my Organic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry the brain for all bio for brain for all science majors who choose to take it. Norcross, great professor. I remember him. There were what is his name. I had a professor whose name escapes me now. I took physics with him in his first-year teaching at Binghamton at Harpur, my son, 40 years later, took physics with him in his last year before retirement. IG: 41:30 Is not that nice? You truly do have a history. FP: 41:32 So, that that was that that was astounding. And I with him, I took three semesters to two semesters physics, one and two, and then astronomy. I took astronomy with him as well. And of course, my-my fondest memories I mentioned earlier, I had too much fun. My fondest memories are down at the gym, my coaches, I-I was on I earn three-three letters at home soccer, swimming and track. Soccer coach Tim Shum, who I see every year at homecoming, and he and I worked jointly on recent fundraising campaign leading up to-to homecoming this fall, we did a major telephone marathon contacting former student athletes. But I have also become very close with Paul Marco, who's the current soccer coach, my swim coach, Dave Thomas, he retired many years ago, and my track coach, Stan Lyons, who left Binghamton to go to Butler. He passed away, but-but I remember them, of course, fondly and-and I did have some wonderful professors whose names have long since escaped me, or had a great German professor, oh, foreign language was required. I mean, it was just, it was a liberal arts education, and there were requirements. And so, I had to take two years, two semesters of German. His last name was Schmidt. I was not very good. I did not really have a good ear for foreign languages. I had to work very hard at it. He was a wonderful professor, and his approach to teaching introduction to German was, this is Goethe. You have to read Faust in German, and you will learn the German that is required by the syllabus from German literature, not from some grammar text. IG: 43:43 So, did he teach you language through reading? FP: 43:48 Through, primarily through reading. It was not a conversational class, so, but-but his approach, and there was grammar. I mean, we learned declinations and what have you I mean, we learned what you-you had to learn but-but his approach made it interesting. It was not just learning by road, it was learning by you want to know what happened next, you were going to have to translate it. So-so I remember him, and I had some wonderful teachers in all of the subjects that I had, and I had some professors, teachers who were less thrilling. Never had a bad teacher. Never had anybody I disliked. Even the administration and I had a personal relationship with s students, Stuart Gordon, who was the Dean of Students. And um, there was a small flooding incident in Champlain Hall, and I was an innocent bystander, but was a witness to how it all came about, and so I developed this relationship. I was in his office, along with a number of other students. We went through the whole judicial process, and I but even there, I mean, even Glen G. Bartle, they love students. They love being college administrators. IG: 45:34 You knew Mr. Bartle? Dr. Bartle, yeah. What was he like? FP: 45:38 Dr. Bartle, he was a geologist, number one. So, he was a scientist. IG: 45:42 You know that the library is named after him. FP: 45:43 Of course, I know that I was there when they built the tower. IG: 45:47 So, what was he like? I idea that he was a real person. [crosstalk] FP: 45:53 And, oh, he was more than just a real person. He was an academician of the first order. He had contacts, he was able to attract to this new State University, liberal arts college in the midst of a burgeoning state university system known for normal schools. I mean, these were teachers’ colleges all over the state, Oneonta, Fredonia and Geneseo and Brockport and Plattsburgh and Potsdam [inaudible] Harpur, and it is just one of those. Well, no, it is not one of those. And he made sure that the world came to know that, and he had a lot of contacts, and was able to attract some incredible talent to-to the school that you would not ordinarily expect. IG: 46:41 I have heard, I have heard that Harpur College profited from the exodus of German scholars in the (19)30s. FP: 46:52 Well- IG: 46:52 {inaudible] one of these? FP: 46:56 He certainly spoke with a German accent. So, he could have been but I do not know. I do not know. I will tell you that Glenn Bartle was a very strait-laced academician. So, in that one year, just before I arrived, I believe it was 1962 we did not have national fraternities that were not permitted on any of the state university campuses at that time. So, there were no Greek fraternities, but we did have local fraternities. We call them men social clubs, men's social clubs, women's social clubs. I was a member of ADPhi [Alpha Delta Phi] men's Social Club, and Marty Greenberg was also a member of ADPhi. He is a member of the Hall of Fame. Of course, a number of a number of our members, went on to academic success at Harpur, but he was a standout. And I believe Frank Pollard was the basketball coach, and Marty was on the team. I think it was 1962 I heard this story when I when I pledged the frat and-and they were supposed to go to a post season. IG: 48:11 What does that mean? FP: 48:13 The NCAA tournament after the season is over, the best teams in your division get invited to these post season tournaments. And Harpur College, I mean, this is big time basketball for a small-time college, and Glen Bartle refused to allow the team to go because it was finals week. IG: 48:40 How did you feel about that? FP: 48:41 I did not have feelings since I heard this third hand. I was not a student at the time. You would have to ask Marty Greenberg how he felt about it, but I happened to know him, and no, he did not think very highly of the decision and but it is more about Glenn Bartle than it is about the specifics of that incident, academics and an education and building the academic reputation of this institution was paramount. So, in any case, yeah, it was fitting when they built the tower that they ultimately at the time it was just called the faculty tower. IG: 49:28 Was he approachable, Dr. Bartle? FP: 49:33 That depends, that depends on some students. For some students, everybody is approachable? I could not give a darn who you are. I remember when Nelson Rockefeller was on campus, and I walked over and said, "Hey, Rocky." And I just- FP: 49:47 Absolutely. The thing you have to realize when I went to college and period we are talking about now. The drinking age in New York State was 18. The voting age was 21 that, of course, got switched later on in the aftermath of Vietnam War, the complaints about these youngsters who are old enough to die for their country, but not old enough to vote. So, the voting age was dropped to 18. Meanwhile, most states have drinking ages of 21 New York, therefore attracted a lot of young people across the borders from New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Connecticut. They would get drunk in New York and then drive home and get killed on the way. So ultimately, federal highway funds were threatened. Then New York raised the drinking age to 21 so today, the drinking age is 21 the voting age is 18. I will not address the drinking age question, but I will tell you that. I mean, I think itis valuable that 18-year-old have the vote. Unfortunately, it is not so valuable that they do not use it. So, there I s a huge educational aspect there that needs to be to get younger. IG: 49:48 Are you serious? IG: 51:11 You were approached Nelson Rockefeller and called him, "Hey Rocky," that that tells me a lot about your personality. FP: 51:18 Oh, I yeah, I am an extrovert and-and I and I am not star struck particularly well. I, first of all, I was admirer of people in power. I did not really know enough about the ins and outs at that time of New York State Government. Before I got my doctorate at NYU. I got a master's degree at Al- in Albany. I went to the Graduate School of Public Affairs, which is at the State University of New York at Albany. That was, that was my immediate move out of Binghamton. And when I was there in this, they did not have trimester two semesters. In fact, Binghamton dropped trimester right after I graduated as well. But while I was in Albany, I spent my summers working for the joint legislative committee on legislative fiscal analysis and review, which was, you know, at that time, the Alfred E Smith office building. And I worked directly for Perry Duryea, who was the long-time speaker of the New York State Assembly. He also happened to be the one who represented us on Long Island. Well, he was a Long Island representative. He was not the only one, but he was from Long Island. So that gave us a connection, you might say. So, I had already- IG: 52:46 You had such great opportunities, you know, to have [crosstalk] FP: 52:49 Anybody who came out of Harpur College in those days, if they chose to, would be given those opportunities on a silver platter. That was the reputation of the school. When my high school teacher said you were going to work harder at Harpur than you would at Columbia. A, it was true, from what I have heard. B, the rest of the world seems already, at that time, to become aware of the quality of the students that were coming out, and that these were students who were going to do well in whatever opportunities you give them. So yes, I had internships and that sort of thing. Then that other-other might have died for coming out of other schools, I do not know, but I was very fortunate. But having- FP: 53:35 When did you do these internships? If you had [crosstalk] FP: 53:41 I was in graduate school. IG: 53:43 You were in graduate school. Right. FP: 53:46 Yes. IG: 53:46 I see. In Albany? FP: 53:48 Yes. IG: 53:49 These internships are in Albany. FP: 53:51 Yes. IG: 53:54 You mentioned, I just wanted to backtrack a little bit to your Harpur days. You mentioned that you know you were having too much fun FP: 54:02 Yes. IG: 54:03 So, tell me a little bit about that. Where would you go? Where- FP: 54:06 First-first trimester allowed me to compete on three different athletic teams, because each one of them was confined to a particular trimester. So, we had a short soccer season that ended in November rather than December, because that was the start of the next trimester. The swimming season was only half of a trimester because the rest of the academic, academic world did not start the swim season until after the Christmas break. That was halfway through us our trimester already, but that is when swim season started, but it ended at the beginning of the spring trimester. Spring trimester was track season, and so I was able to participate in in three varsity teams. That is something that cannot be done today. Well, it is also the case that they were division three teams. I could not, I would not at my peak, I would never have made-made the first ring varsity of any of the Binghamton University teams today in Division one. These are fabulous athletes, but-but it created opportunities to travel to other schools. It did involve a lot of training and a lot of time down at the gym, and I made a lot of friends that way. And so that was one aspect of having too much fun. Another aspect of having too much fun revolved around the social club, local fraternity, whatever you want to call it. And there was Friday nights at Swats, the downtown Sullivan's tavern, or at or in those days on in Johnson City, I forget the name of the road, but it is where the mall is. At the end of the road, you go over the Fred C Johnson, Fred C Johnson, Fred Johnson. C Fred Johnson bridge in into Johnson City. And there used to be a traffic circle there and off. And the first exit was Riverside Drive heading into Binghamton. The second exit was Floral Avenue, and the third exit took you on what now it continues to be 201, whatever it is to the mall over there, yes, and that mall directly across the street from it, the Wegmans on the one side, on the other side, those motels and the Friendlies and what have you all of that was these large industrial buildings. When I was there huge industrial complex that was the Endicott Johnson shoe factory. FP: 54:53 That is right, that is right, the famous Endicott Johnson shoe factory. FP: 56:49 Yes. and right down the road, as you might imagine, from any factory, with a row of pubs and taverns, where at five o'clock whistle workers would come out, and that would be their stop before heading home. It was also a Friday night stop for fraternity. IG: 57:07 How would you get there? By- FP: 57:09 Well, what happened there are, there were no-no blue busses. That is the Binghamton blue busses that take you all over. Now that did not exist, but there were city busses. So, there was a bus to Johnson City, but it went up Floral Avenue and dropped you off at whatever that road is, which becomes oak that goes all the way into Binghamton. Yeah, Oak Street, whatever that street is that goes into being by the by the Truman gate. That is as far as the bus would take you. And you could take a bus into Binghamton. These were city busses. But I would say that out of the 20 or 30 guys who were in the club, there were probably five or six automobiles. So, if you were available, you would all pour-pour into those, and we would go. By the time I was a junior, I had a car as well. My father gave me an automobile, 1960 Plymouth, sport fury. I love that car. Why? Because it was the first my first car. Everybody loves their first car anyway. And Kenny Bloom had had a car. I remember one of my fraternity brothers and-and so we would go again, 18 years of age. Was the drinking age. It was a dry campus. There was a period of time. Shortly after I left Binghamton, I was in graduate school in Albany. And when I returned, there was a guest lecture that I came for. And we came down, Roy Harrod, Sir Roy Harrod was giving a lecture at Binghamton. And we drove down from Albany. Roy Harrod is a world famous he may be, not sure it could be a Nobel Prize winner, one of the early ones, or certainly should have been, but one of the most wide, highly the in the era of John Maynard Keynes and John Hicks, world famous economists, right up there with Paul Samuelson and Robert Solow and these guys, and-and he was giving a lecture and-and, so-so we came down to hear that lecture, and I and there was a rathskeller-ratskeller, that was serving beer on the campus, and, I think. And remember, the drinking age was still 18, so my dry campus was no longer dry. That I do not know how long that lasted, but- IG: 59:53 That is one of the changes of the later (19)60s. FP: 59:58 That-that would have been late (19)60s or early (19)70s. Yes, I would have been like 1968. (19)69 I am guessing. IG: 1:00:08 So, did you see, you know, the climate change while you were well campus, and when you returned to there from- FP: 1:00:19 The climate began to change- the first thing you need to know, if you walk around Binghamton University today, there is a lot of construction going on. When I arrived in July of 1963 there was a lot of construction going on from July of 1963 when I arrived, and I am told by those who preceded me, starting in 1959 when they first broke ground for the gym, to today. There has been a lot of construction. FP: 1:00:43 Eternal construction. FP: 1:00:57 Forever. IG: 1:00:58 Yes, it is like, it is what they say about St John the Divine, the cathedral on the Upper West Side, that it is, it is, you know, eternal, in an eternal state of construction. So is Harpur- FP: 1:01:13 Absolutely-absolutely. IG: 1:01:15 Binghamton campus. FP: 1:01:15 Yes. So, I am going to tell you a few of the things that have changed dramatically that actually influenced the way we lived at the time versus today, and contributed to some of the traditions. But it was a dry it was a dry campus at that time, and we all lived in a small group of about and it was eight dormitories in total, four men and four women. Women had a curfew. IG: 1:01:51 That is right, that is right. FP: 1:01:53 Women had a curfew, if I am not mistaken, it was 10 o'clock during the week and Friday and Saturday nights, midnight. And there was a card system. You checked in with your cards, and you checked out, and you move your card from the inbox to the outbox. And any, anybody, any visitors, male visitors, picking you up for a date or what have you would have to check in at the front desk, and then they would check the card to make sure you were there. Then they would call the young lady down, and you had to have her back in time to move her card from the outbox back to the inbox. And what have you did? IG: 1:02:34 Did male students have the same restrictions? FP: 1:02:36 No. There were no restrictions. You came and went as you wished. That is exactly right. So that is and we did have on Sunday afternoons open dorm visitation, three feet on the floor. IG: 1:03:02 I have heard about that. FP: 1:03:06 So, the and doors open, obviously. And we did not have suites, though. These were all dorm style hall and nothing co-ed. But when I arrived, the first of the dormitory buildings outside of the brain were under construction, and Bingham and Endicott Hall, which surrounded New England dining hall, were the first dorms open, and I was among the first group of students to move across the brain into Bingham Hall. So I was that very first resident in Bingham Hall. But think about for a moment. You know, 1600 students on campus. Maybe 150 or 200 of those undergraduates lived off campus and commuted. Everybody else lived on campus. That is so that social club, that fraternity, we all lived on campus when we had our weekly meetings, it was in one of the rooms in the student center that we had so there was no off-campus activity. It was a dry campus. I mean, think about a fraternity, and think about what fraternity life would be like under those circumstances, where you have maybe half a dozen automobiles once a week, you could get everybody together to go for a beer or something. But for the most part, life for this fraternity was on campus or to revolve- IG: 1:04:43 It was a dry campus. FP: 1:04:44 It was a dry campus, so our fraternity activities revolved around athletics, including into a big presence on the intramural athletics. The intramural athletics were more important to most students than the intercollegiate athletics. Today, equivalent today would be correct, football, for example, on the Binghamton campus. But in those days, softball league, soccer leagues, and all of these inter band, basketball, intramural teams dominated the life of the social clubs. That was where the social clubs competed, and what have you, shows, talent shows, that sort of thing what is now the Mandela room in the old student center. That room was originally a mini theater. IG: 1:05:29 There was a radio station. FP: 1:05:31 Yes, there was a radio station WHU something, something and but it was not an FM station. It was broadcast on campus only. You had to be in a campus building with it or within-within the confines you know that the signal was focused on-on the campus, we had our newspaper, which was the Colonial News. It was ultimately changed to the Pipe Dream because somebody objected to the word colonial thinking that it means the same thing as a colonialist, whereas it really referred to colonist John Harpur for who the school was named. But-but I, like I will not complain about that. I was a colonial on the athletic teams, but I am proud to be a bear cat. So-so I do not get, I do not get there are certain traditions worthy of change, and I really do not have any-any problem with that at all. But life in the fraternity was focused around the campus life and athletics was focused around training and what have you. And then there was political life on the campus, and that revolved around the student center board, which was the precursor for the Student Association ESA. Student Center board then became ESA later, and I was on the student center board, dorm rep, and with specific responsibility for helping to put on shows. We had a winter weekend and a spring weekend. These were big events, and we brought in talent to put- IG: 1:07:13 Who did you bring [inaudible]? FP: 1:07:13 -on a big concert. I will we-we had the Mitchell Trio. Right after John Mitchell retired, it used to be the not John Mitchell, Chad Mitchell, Chad Mitchell retired. So, they kept the name the Mitchell trio. They dropped the chat, and his replacement singer was a young singer by the name of John Denver. So, we had John Denver and the Mitchell Trio. We had Lambert [Dave Lambert], Hendricks [Jon Hendricks] and Bavan [Yolande Bavan] great jazz singers. We had some of the big duo groups, the Drifters, (19)50s and early (19)60s, Simon and Garfunkel. FP: 1:08:00 They were there? FP: 1:08:00 But you are talking about they had one hit. They were brand new. You know that that- IG: 1:08:06 Was your- what was your first hit? Do you remember? FP: 1:08:10 The first one that I ever heard from them was Silence- Sounds of Silence. IG: 1:08:13 Oh, is that what they performed? Did you see them perform? FP: 1:08:16 Yes. Yes. IG: 1:08:16 And how was, how was that? FP: 1:08:18 Well, again, they were not superstars. IG: 1:08:20 They were not superstars. FP: 1:08:21 We could never have afforded any superstars. Five years after we had John Denver, there never, ever been able to get him again. Three years after we had Simon and Garfunkel, never been able to touch them again. You know, I remember, but it was, remember, the period was the early (19)60s, 1960 mid (19)60s. I got there in (19)63 I left in (19)66 that was, that was the three-year British invasion. So, all the music that we would have wanted to bring to campus- IG: 1:09:00 Was not, was not available. FP: 1:09:02 You could not get the Beatles or the Rolling Stones. IG: 1:09:06 Was not folk. But you really- FP: 1:09:09 We did have folk singers. We did have folk singers trying to remember, I think we had Buffy Sainte-Marie. We had, you know, some folk we did not get Peter, Paul and Mary, but we did a Buffy Sainte-Marie. I tried to remember- IG: 1:09:26 Is not, you know, Simon and Garfunkel out of that tradition? I mean [crosstalk] FP: 1:09:30 They may have been, they may have been out of that tradition. I do not know. I do not know how I would categorize. [crosstalk] IG: 1:09:35 So let us talk about, let us talk about Sir Rock came to the fore and with it. You know, social change, political change. How alive were you? FP: 1:09:46 When I got to Binghamton? The-the civil rights movement was the way we defined the Civil Rights Movement looking back on the 1960s from today's perspective, was still in its infancy. There had not been the Detroit riots, Watts and the huge social unrest and social consciousness raising aspects of the civil rights movement, we were concerned about freedom riders being harassed in Mississippi, the death of three students marching the, you know, the fire hoses and dogs and what have you. We were there at the very beginning of the forced integration. Estes Kefauver, Little Rock and and-and, of course, the Old Miss opening its doors to Meredith [James Meredith]. I mean, that was the beginning. But remember, I got there in July of 1963 we took a bus to Washington in August of 1963 we were parked behind-behind I was standing for Martin Luther King. And who was not he-he-he is what everybody remembers for that, from that, what march on Washington because of that incredible speech. But he was not the headliner. We were there because Mahalia Jackson and so many others were going to be performing and what have you. And there were politicians talking about this, and the whole National Mall, from the Lincoln Memorial, where they were going to be speaking, all the way to the Washington Monument. Well, remember the-the Library of Congress is located behind the Capitol building, behind and where and where we are parked there, from the Capitol to the Washington Monument, packed with people. You could not move from the Washington Monument, the reflecting pool completely surrounded. Then mobs of people in front of the Lincoln Memorial, where these speeches are being made. Loudspeakers all over the place, but the truth of the matter is, did not hear a thing. Did not hear a thing, got off the bus in the midst of packing crowds- IG: 1:12:31 Probably swept up with the fervor, with the- no? FP: 1:12:35 It was an event. It was it was a road trip adventure. IG: 1:12:38 It was a road trip. FP: 1:12:39 It was a road trip adventure. Yes, I thought that the fact that an entire race could be deprived of basic civil rights that I took for granted was horrific. Yes, I absolutely believe that how far out on a limb was I going to go to do something about that I did not have a vote. I was not going to parade up and down streets carrying a placard and have firemen of fire hoses at me. There are plenty of people who will. Okay, so, but I was, I was certainly, I was certainly both emotionally and philosophically involved in the Civil Rights in a broad array of civil rights issues. I remember at that time, there was a major lawsuit in the New York metropolitan area in northern New Jersey, because of blue laws, because the religious Jewish population celebrated the Sabbath on Saturday. They were business owners. They wanted to open their businesses on Sunday, and they were not permitted to, because of blue laws. That is a civil rights issue. There were a lot of those at the time. Clearly the majors, nobody was getting lynched. No, you know there were, and they could vote, and they could bring lawsuits in court, and so I am not trying to make the comparison, but the concept of the civil rights as a movement, you-you create an environment in which every citizen is entitled to their rights, every citizen is entitled to their rights, so it spreads. So, you pick the biggest and most egregious of the offenses to people's civil rights, and that will expand to everybody else. If you start nitpicking on the smaller issues of meaningful issues, you are not going to reach the big ones. So, I understood, completely, understood where the focus was. I was not I was not going to Montgomery [crosstalk] IG: 1:14:38 -around in the (19)60s. FP: 1:14:40 I think it started probably in the late (19)50s or early (19)60s, possibly before I got there, but it was already in full bloom by the time I was by the time I arrived at Harpur College, it was in full you heard about it when I was in high school. Uh, you heard about Pete Singer singing, If I had a Hammer, and that sort of thing, and you read about why and what have you, but it did not have the same impact until you were living among students, some of whom were really committed, who took busses down to Mississippi, who took busses to Alabama and what have you, that was not me, but I fully respected what they were doing, because philosophically, I supported that, but I was not going that was not me. I could not, I could not bring myself to do something. IG: 1:15:33 What are some of the, you know, major political events of the time that you remember that you know, the Kennedy assassination. FP: 1:15:41 Kennedy assassination was big. Kennedy assassination was November of 19 November 21 or 22nd of 1963 I was I was at the at the Student Center and watching my watch. IG: 1:16:00 We run a little bit. FP: 1:16:01 Do not worry about the time. I was watching my watch, and I realized, up, I got to go. I have a chem lab. And you walked across science one was the science building. There was no science 234, or five and six at the time, just science one and-and there was one wing of science, one which has doors even today that open up onto the peace squad that you go through. And it is a traditional lecture hall with the big sliding in those days, I think it was green boards, actually. They did not have whiteboards in those days. It was green with the yellow chalk, but they slid up and down. This was the big deal in any case, and but the door right next to it that took you into that hall, that led you down to where the LA the laboratories were for chemistry, and I had a chem lab at that time, and I am walking across the Peace Corps, and all of a sudden, my friend Tony Oliveri comes, who was in the lab with me, comes running out the hall, and he sees me, and he was like [inaudible] telling me "What is up? Did you hear?" "Hear what?" "President has been shot?" Whoa, well, what goes through your mind? President has been shot? Guys got a wound. To take them to the hospital. It will be fine, right? We walk into the lab together. We start our chemistry lab. The professor is not there. Their grad assistants are running the lab, maybe not even grad assistants. They may have been upperclassmen, I do not recall, and we had very specific assignments that we were supposed to be doing, but the radio is going. We never had the radio going. You did not play music during labs in those days. The radio is going and listen to news reports and, and, and I remember, never forget, all of a sudden, some on the radio that they make an announcement, wait, stop. And somebody's talking to somebody who had just come out of the hospital. This was in Dallas, and said "Priest is up there with him administering last rites." I remember this specifically. IG: 1:18:21 Just a few hours later. FP: 1:18:22 Yes. IG: 1:18:23 Right? FP: 1:18:23 That is correct. And we look at each other, this is not some shoulder wound. And of course, he died. [crosstalk] John Kennedy, I mean, this was Camelot. We were young. We were there were there were future Republicans of America, or whatever they but everybody, I mean, you did not have the divisiveness that you were a young person. Kennedy was an inspiration. This was the youngest president. I mean, because we had grown up, if you remember when I was born, right after FDR passed away. FDR passed away on April 12 in 1945 and so Truman was the President when I was born, October 1945 and then Eisenhower, and-and-and then, and then Kennedy. So, Kennedy was, you know, 30 years younger than anybody else who had been in the White House during our-our relatively [crosstalk] IG: 1:19:38 Charismatic and [inaudible]. FP: 1:19:40 Absolutely, so this, it was an incredible, incredibly devastating phenomenon at that at that time, we had never lived through anything like it. I mean, the comparisons people started talking about the Lincoln assassination and-and- IG: 1:20:00 Everyone remembers that moment. I remember I was in grade school, and I remember the teacher coming in, you know, and sort of huddling with another teacher. And, you know, the news leaked out somehow that he was shot, and then a few hours later, we found out that he was assassinated. All the children were allowed, were let go, you know, and we could go home. But I remember, I remember that day so clearly. Everyone I have spoken to remembers that moment so clearly, because it was a shock. [inaudible] FP: 1:20:34 Absolutely. How could this happen here? Yeah, it was absolutely a shock. And when they announced that he had died, that is when we had been in the lab for about two hours, and that is when the whoever lab assistant or senior or whatever said, "I think we better wrap it up, close up." So yeah, I remember that very clearly. That was so we had the civil rights movement going on throughout my entire time in Binghamton, and then right on through my old graduate school, we had Kennedy assassination, and immediately followed by, and I do not think it, had he not been assassinated, we would never have had those great society measures passed. Lyndon Johnson became the president and-and he pushed through Congress, you know, massive social legislation, the Voting Rights Act and the war on poverty and-and what have you. It had long term economic consequences. The guns and butter economy had massive consequences, of course, but-but at the time this progressive legislative agenda got through in ways that we never thought would get through had Kennedy survived. IG: 1:21:53 Why is that? Explain it. FP: 1:21:55 Well, the main reason was that the Kennedy assassination raised public awareness for the loss of this progressive agenda that was not going anywhere. And then the vice president becomes the president. And the Vice President was everybody knew he ran the Senate. When Lyndon Johnson was in the Senate, he was the boss. Everybody knew that. So, everybody knew he was going to ram through these things, that as vice president, he was not likely to be able to get through the Kennedy assassination disarmed the loyal opposition. IG: 1:22:34 Interesting. FP: 1:22:36 And I remember there was one senator, never forget, a Republican senator, and not these were not bad people. The so-called fiscal conservatives of the time, remember New York State and California, each even then, were known, you know, as the blue states, using today's terminology, as bastions of liberal, progressive agendas. So, when you talk about the Republicans in New York State, Nelson Rockefeller was the long-term governor. Malcolm Wilson was the lieutenant governor for 3,4,5, terms. The Attorney General was Louis Lefkowitz, Republican the State Controller was Arthur Levitt, Democrat, and our senior senator from New York State was Jacob Javits, Republican. Well, by today's standards. By today's standards, their politics was slightly to the left of Bernie Sanders. IG: 1:23:47 Really? FP: 1:23:47 And they were Republicans. You know- IG: 1:23:49 It was a very different, very understanding of [inaudible] FP: 1:23:52 Very different, absolutely-absolutely, very different. So-so trying to- IG: 1:24:01 How interesting, so how interesting everything that you are saying, and especially you know this, this the political climate of the time. FP: 1:24:11 But I will never forget, there was during the time when Johnson was pushing through these measures in Congress that involved big government expenditures and the and the things that you hear what the Republican leadership in the Congress and in the Senate these days have to say about proposals to spend money on progressive agendas, strange, what you consider progressive these days? Today, a progressive agenda is rebuilding the infrastructure of the nation. Go figure, whereas conservative agenda is building a border wall. Think about this for a second. But in those days, the biggest issue they had the word. Thing they could say about Johnson's Great Society, billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you are talking about real money. But-but it was, it was, I mean, Sam Rayburn was the Speaker of the House. I mean, it was a totally different world. It was genteel. Politics could be dirty in those smoke-filled rooms. And we know that from our history books, from First, from accounts that that we, that we have but-but in public, the public specter was of gentlemanly disagreement. It may have been serious disagreements, but people were civil. World has really, really changed anyway. The next big issue that came to dominate, academic life for-for the next decade was Southeast Asia, and that had just begun to percolate while I was in college, and I really did not think much of it. I mean, we had read the ugly American we knew about the domino theory. Then John Foster Dulles, Secretary of State, who had promoted that, that philosophy that led us into our involvement and a lot of misguided approaches, although you could not know it at the time, but from about 1965 on, it became increasingly clear, that the nation was becoming embroiled in a foreign conflict that was going to bubble over in domestic politics and in social unrest. Of course, it came to its peak in the 1969 in (19)68, (19)68 in Chicago, in (19)68 during the conventions, and then through (19)69 and-and, of course, intermixed with all of that incredible assassination became unbelievable. You know, Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy got shot. Of course, Martin Luther King was assassinated, I mean, and that was not something you-you heard about in the United States. Kent State, absolutely. So now I was already out. I had already graduated. But the reason I mentioned that was because prior to my graduating, this was either in late (19)65 or early (19)66 there was a selective service qualifying exam. We all had went from the time you turned 18, you had to have a draft card, a Selective Service ID number and a draft card. Dutifully, we all got our draft cards. You had not yet entered the period when people were burning. That had not yet happened, but if you were, if you were planning to continue in school after you graduated, in order to maintain your student deferment, you had to score above a certain threshold on the Selective Service qualifying exam. They were not going to give graduate net professional school students a free ride out of the draft, just because you were in school. IG: 1:29:07 Right, I did not know that part. I thought it was just because you were in school. No, you have to score a certain was it like an SAT? FP: 1:29:14 Yes. Oh, more like a GRE I mean, you were college graduates are going to be right. Of course, yes. So, within a matter of within a matter of two months, I took the Selective Service qualifying exam, I took the MCATs and I took the GREs. I took the MCATs only because my father told me to do it. I had already decided I was going to graduate school in economics. I said, "Do not worry that I will be a doctor, just a different kind of a doctor." But I, but I took off. I took four exams Selective Service and cats. GRS, OH. Were three different exams, and in relatively short order, obviously I did well enough to maintain my student deferment while I went off to graduate school. And that was the end of my Harpur College student career. But as I say at that time in that during the late, late 2005 and the first half of 2000 I graduated in June of-of (19)66 I graduated in June of (19)66 and so during that year, [inaudible] called my senior year. She called my senior year the-the phenomenon of the Vietnam War and its impact on student life and on society in general was just beginning to enter our consciousness in a big way. The first big way was, you were not going to graduate school if you do not do well on this exam, you were going into the army. Oh, you were going to be drafted army, navy to the armed services. And so that was my first big awakening to the reality of what was going on around me that I was not paying that much attention to. Then, once I was in graduate school, once I was up in Albany. I mean, there were mass demonstrations all the time. I was never a demonstrator. No different with regard to Vietnam as it was to the civil rights movement. These were issues about which I cared deeply and emotionally, philosophically, but I did not put myself on-on the line for good or ill. IG: 1:31:44 Did you feel sorry for the men who were drafted and that they did not have the [crosstalk] FP: 1:31:49 I was teaching when I was in Albany. I had a teaching fellowship. I ref I refuse to give a male student anything less than a C I do not care how badly they did, because I was afraid- IG: 1:32:02 [crosstalk[ passing grade? FP: 1:32:03 It was the last, well, D is, D was a passing grade, but it would not be enough to for them to maintain their student department. IG: 1:32:11 I see. FP: 1:32:11 And these were undergrads. So-so it did affect the way I conducted my classes, and yeah, so it became, it became a big it became a big deal. Now I will tell you that as a graduate student, I developed relationships with professors that I had heard some of my undergraduate classmates had when they were when we were back at Harpur, but I never had those relationships in graduate school, I would have dinner at a professor's house. There were two or three other professors who, themselves were going out for a drink, and would invite me along, and we would sit and we would talk theory, and we would pull out napkins, remember the famous Laffer Curve and what have you. Well, that is where these things came from, groups of scholars sitting around tables, having a beer, but also talking about and it ended up getting me some interesting, interesting opportunities. I was there was there was a PBS, there was a PBS series back in the late (19)60s called controversy, controversies in social sciences or something like this. And this particular and there was a and there was a particular episode called controversies in economics, monetary policy and the Federal Reserve. IG: 1:33:52 That is very high-high, very high brow and very intellectual. I was watching Get Smart. FP: 1:34:01 Well, I watch Get Smart. I watch Get Smart too, but I was on that episode along with- IG: 1:34:07 You still have that clip? FP: 1:34:09 No, that is long that that is long lost. You cannot if, I mean, if anybody finds it on YouTube or something, God bless them. Was the late (19)60s, and it was the chairman of the it was the president of the New York Federal Reserve Bank, who also happens to be the chairman of the Open Market Committee. And there were a couple of professors, and there was me, a graduate student, studying monetary theory and-and-and this was filmed in the WNW students [crosstalk] IG: 1:34:47 When did PBS begin in Albany? FP: 1:34:50 Oh, that I forget. I do not know but, but this was filmed in New York City or in, actually, in New Jersey. Was actually filmed in New Jersey. It was not, it was, was not an in New York City Park--was at a studio, and it was WNT the channel 13, their studios, and that was [crosstalk]. Yeah, and, and that is- IG: 1:35:17 So, tell me, you know, we were, we have been talking for a while. Tell me about just you know, the trajectory of your career. What are some of the highlights you went to NYU- FP: 1:35:29 Well, I graduated from Binghamton, and my first stop Graduate School of Public Affairs at SUNY, SUNY Albany, I had been admitted to Columbia University. Again, it was always my go to but I would have to pay. In Albany, I had a fellowship. IG: 1:35:49 Right. That makes a difference, of course, and you probably profited from that experience more. FP: 1:35:54 It was small, it was a smaller program, and it was, it was very good. So, I got my master's degree in in political economy at the Graduate School of Public Affairs, and I developed some great relationships with very famous economists. Morris Copeland, who had been at Cornell University, was recruited and came over to Albany at that time, Louis Saul, Louis Saul Kiefer and Franklin Walker and Jack Gelfand. I mean, these were very well-known economists in the literature that had been recruited during the Rock- before Rockefeller left New York State to become the vice president under Jerry Ford, he his personal legacy was going to be the State University of New York, and the state, you know, and the state legislator, legislature funded this incredible expenditure, building campuses, creating four University Centers at Stony Brook, Buffalo Albany and-and Binghamton to-to medical school. Stony Brook, at that time, I did not yet have a medical school. So, there are two medical schools of downstate and upstate or in Buffalo. So, three medical schools, law schools. I mean, they were building a university to rival the-the only school in scope, the only public university in scope that rivals was-was California. There were other better known state universities that the Michigan's, the Wisconsin's, you know, and what have you, of the world, but-but our university system was founded in 1948 Triple Cities College was founded in 1946 as you know, but it was a joint venture between NYU and Syracuse University, and there were two that they found at Utica College and Triple Cities College, and they founded those schools joint ventures in order to provide educational opportunities for returning GIS right after the war that was 1946. The school in Binghamton was purchased by this fledgling State University in 1948 and in 1950 changed its name to Harpur College. They created Harpur College in 1950 was located in Endicott in a Quonset hut, and-and gradually they moved with in 1950 they moved over to the mansion and-and then the rest is history. [crosstalk] Yeah, well, that those were those quad set hearts, exactly, and then, and then, by 1960 they started construction on the current campus. In the first building was that gym. IG: 1:38:39 So, tell me, tell me. Give me highlights of your career. You graduated- FP: 1:38:45 I left, I left. I graduated Albany and met my future wife. She- I did not have to graduate from Albany. I had my master's, but I was in the PhD program. I could have stayed, but she was- had graduated the same time that I got my master's. She got her bachelor's degree, and she was going to graduate school at the New School for Social Research, going for her doctorate in at that time, was a master's in in psychology at the New School. And I opted not to stay away from her. So, we decided to get married, which we did, and we moved into an apartment in Brooklyn, and she went to school at the New School. I went to work for the First Boston Corporation, and was admitted to the doctoral program at the Graduate School of Business Administration, now the Stern School at NYU and-and then I finished up my doctoral studies there while working for First Boston. I- IG: 1:39:58 What did you specialize in? [crosstalk] FP: 1:40:00 Well, First Boston was an investment bank. IG: 1:40:04 No-no, I meant your thesis. FP: 1:40:06 Oh, it was foreign capital flows. Foreign capital flows, basically a it was a modeling exercise to designed to measure forces that influenced our balance the capital funds side of the balance of payments, you have the balance of trade, goods and services, and then you have the rest of the balance of payments, which are capital flows that are offset or fail to offset, trade. And what are the forces that influence those everything from currency movement- IG: 1:40:41 [inaudible] like risk assessment? FP: 1:40:43 Not really. I mean, that is James Tobin risk assessment. That is that ultimately became Nobel Prize winning stuff for the economist who specialized in that and helped explain what goes on in the stock market. I wish I had studied that. There was no-no future business benefit from studying international capital flows, but I was more interested in the effects that exchange rate movements had on balance of payments, on costs of goods in the importing country, which were influenced not Just by the usual market forces that that influence prices. But something called effective tariffs. We know what a tariff is. Well, there are effective tariffs. That is the actual percentage of the selling price of the good, above the production cost of the good and profit. So, you have production cost, profit, and then some additional costs. Well, those additional costs may be more lower or higher than the so-called tariff, and what influences that, and what influence does those actual costs have on how those things are financed and how they were financed influences capital flows and capital flows, we know in this, even then, even in the 1960s the-the reality had already set in that interstate banking restrictions. We did not we did not have interstate bank in the United States meant that US banks were not going to be able to grow adequately to compete with the large international banking firms that had no such restrictions and-and there were other similar restrictions we had. We had a glass wall in Glass Steagall between investment banking and commercial banking and-and that limited growth, I think, in a good way, we should never have removed it. And we have seen the effects in the replay and then in 2007 and eight of the same kind of financial disaster that that that led to the Great Depression in the 1930s we could have had that again, because we removed from the fiduciary responsibilities of banks restrictions preventing them from gambling on the very volatile financial markets. IG: 1:43:17 So, but thank you for explaining this in a nutshell. I mean, this is a history and economics lesson for me. FP: 1:43:27 Bur-but the key point for me, the interesting point for me, was that we that foreign banks were not so restricted. And therefore, they could, they could dominate these international flows of funds. What did not occur to me at the time was that those capital flows could be used to influence elections and election outcomes and what have you the fact that Deutsche Bank has bankrolled what otherwise is a horrible business person. And not only horrible from a personality point of view, but actually business acumen wise, everybody in business knows that Trump is a horrible businessman, and he was always bankrupt and that he is totally financed by-by foreign capital flows. I did not know it at the time. That is not what I was studying. Oh, in New York, it was well, and they were saying [crosstalk] IG: 1:44:22 [inaudible] horrible business person. FP: 1:44:24 I mean, not just a horrible business person because he cheats, because he refuses to pay, and that sort of thing. IG: 1:44:29 I know that he was bankrupt. FP: 1:44:31 Oh, yeah, he has been bankrupted more times than virtually bankrupt, I know, but he is bankrolled. Yeah, Deutsche Bank owns him, and now Deutsche Bank is being investigated by the AG in New York, and for good reason, they could end up losing their US license to operate here, and they, in turn, are being bankrolled by a bunch of Russian banks who are who with whom, US citizens are banned from-from dealing because of sanctions. Oh, but I did not study any of this. I did not- IG: 1:45:04 You follow this. Did you teach in your career? FP: 1:45:07 Oh yeah-yeah. IG: 1:45:08 So, tell us [crosstalk] FP: 1:45:10 First, when I was in Albany and I was in the PhD program, but the famous booby prize, you get your master's degree after you finish your coursework and taking qualifying exams. So, but-but I had been teaching at a teaching fellowship, so I was teaching there, and in the summers, I actually had paid teaching assignments. And so, I was teaching at Albany. When I went to New York, I taught. I actually landed a teaching spot at the New School with Jeannie, my-my wife was-was going to school, and so I taught at the New School for Social Research. And then I and then, and we were living in Brooklyn at the time. We moved to Queens to Flushing, because she had graduated, got her master's degrees, and then she went on for her PD professional diploma at the- she switched from social psychology to educational psychology, school psychology and-and she went to St John's University, which is in Queens, and so we moved to Flushing. IG: 1:46:11 Yeah, you mentioned that in [inaudible]. FP: 1:46:13 And I did not feel like traveling from Wall Street out to Flushing and then back into town to 14th Street to teach at the New School. Our next-door neighbor in the building where we were living in Flushing was a professor of accounting at Hofstra University, so he invited me to come down and talk to the department chairman. The next semester I was teaching money and banking at Hofstra University, so I taught at Hofstra University for a year or two. Well, it was actually three semesters, so a year and a half and um, and uh, you know, I finished up my degree [coughs] worked for First Boston, and that went on until 1986. IG: 1:47:06 Mm-hmm, both the teaching and First Boston? FP: 1:47:09 Yes, I had an adjunct position during the entire time that I was working at First Boston. Primary role at First Boston was to serve the needs of clients. So, if a client was involved in a particular investment, for example, they were going to issue couple of 100 million dollars’ worth of corporate bonds in order to finance the purchase of another business and acquisition. What is the economic outlook for the nation? Should we be financing with fixed rate bonds? Should we be doing this with bank loans? Should we be doing this with variable rate instruments? What is your forecast for interest the interest rate outlook over the foreseeable future, the next six months, the next year, the next 10 years, within the firm, what, what does-what do the economic prognosticators claim is likely to be the course of economic events, because first, Boston also took large positions in the securities markets, particularly the government securities markets, primary deal in securities and-and so they wanted to know both our own personal thoughts and whatever research we were doing, but primarily we were information gathering. So, there were big research firms Chase econometrics, DRI Data Resources Incorporated. That is Otto Eckstein's firm and a number of other large models of US economic activity. There are economists at all the large commercial banks and whatever they are all generating these forecasts, our job was to gather all of this intel, put it into a meaningful, compact presentation, and share most likely our thoughts and the and then spread the whole range for the investment bankers, because they are the ones who are going to put the firm's money on the line. IG: 1:49:16 Right-right. [inaudible] can make recommendations [crosstalk] FP: 1:49:19 Absolutely, well, I would not be in a position to make a recommendation invest in this or invest in that. I might say I think interest rates are going to be going up. Certainly, the preponderance of information suggests that is going to be the case. And I have done some research on my own, it suggests that, in the past, when these circumstances arise, that is what happens. That is how the Federal Reserve responds. So, if I were you, I would not be investing in fixed income instruments. I might be focusing my attention more on real estate or whatever. But I am not the one who makes the decision to put stuff on the line. So, I have told you what-what the evidence shows. You still have to make, which is why I get paid a modest salary, and you make millions of dollars. I am staff you are [inaudible] and-and that was all that, but that is what I that is what I did there. And also, from time to time, clients would ask us to visit them. They were having a dinner for the local community. It could be, it could be a university where they, you know, the First Bank One of Ohio is headquarters, you probably know, in Columbus, and they are very closely tied to Ohio, to Ohio State and-and so they fund a center the-the-the Bank One, Bank Ohio, in those days now it but Bank Ohio a center for the study of economic developments at the Ohio State University, and-and they, and they are holding this big conference, and they have got several different economists we would like you to be among that list. Please come and give a speech on the economic outlook or on whatever. Well, they are entitled to that. That is, that is a service that first, Boston provides to their clients. IG: 1:51:23 You would give these- FP: 1:51:24 So, I would go and I would give a lecture or a speech or what have you. I was, I had a lot of dinner meetings in New York and around the country. I mean, their first Boston, did a lot of business with state governments, particularly the retirement funds-funds or the endowments of the public universities and what have you and-and so part of that service included my going out, and- IG: 1:51:53 What was your title? You were- FP: 1:51:54 Vice President, Economist. Vice President, Economist. In the economist department, it was called the, not the economics department. Was called The Economist department. Singular, there were, there were about five of us. I was not the boss. Albert [inaudible] was the boss. But and I did. I did a speech once at the western states, State Treasurers Conference, treasurers from all of the Rocky Mountain and West Coast states, including Alaska, came and we met in in Las Cruces, New Mexico. IG: 1:52:35 That is where my daughter lived. FP: 1:52:38 And I gave a presentation out there, speech, and we did other conferences like that around that that was not really research. That was entertainment. We were the after-dinner entertainment, make no mistake about that, but that is a service that-that investment [crosstalk] IG: 1:52:56 Meanwhile, your teaching career- FP: 1:52:58 Well, it was- always as an adjunct. IG: 1:53:00 At Hofstra? FP: 1:53:02 Well, it did not actually, no, it did not end at Hofstra. But there is a twist to this whole tale, because all of this continued until 1986 and 1986 everything came tumbling down. I got, I was diagnosed with a non-Hodgkin lymphoma, and the-the um, the treatment was expected to be successful. They had good success rates, no guarantees, of course, but-but it was a very intense six months. Let us put it that way, between radiation, chemotherapy and-and a few surgical procedures because they were cutting out lesions that had popped up on the surface and-and I ultimately, I ultimately left First Boston. I could not walk across the street in the amount of time from the time that the-the walk sign came on, I could not make it across the street before the light had changed. I mean, the serious nerve damage, it was, it was rough. I mean, I could not really function very well in a work. IG: 1:54:17 And you were just a young man. You were- FP: 1:54:18 I was not that young, 40, 40, [crosstalk] but uh, but um, I, but I got through it, and I survived and-and moved on. My wife was an educator. She gotten her degree in School Psychology. She was working in Cornwall schools and then Pearl River School System up where we lived in Rockland County, and so our whole circle of friends tended to be a mixed bag of people from the financial community and people from the educational, K-12 educational community. And so, the questions were, are you going back to First Boston or to the world of finance? And at the time, I had three young children. My oldest was born in (19)81 my youngest was born in (19)87 and the middle one was born in (19)83 they were relatively young. I- working at first boss, and I never saw them. Sounds always traveling. Was always on the road. Investment banking hours are seven to seven. IG: 1:55:39 Yes, I know. FP: 1:55:39 It is, you know, I just never saw them and-and here, I just had a, what in my fragile psychological state I call a near death experience. So, physicians would tell you know that it was highly unlikely there is a 90 percent cure rate. So, you know, it was very unlikely that- IG: 1:56:01 You had, you had the experience of a near death experience, or just the fact of [crosstalk] FP: 1:56:05 Just my, just the fact of being diagnosed with-with a word that starts with a C. IG: 1:56:11 Of course. FP: 1:56:11 It is a cancer. So-so-so I am reevaluating what I am going to do with the rest of my life, and one of Jean's friends, for some strange reason I will never understand this, educators tend to marry educators. There are exceptions, and I am one of them, but many of our friends, wife was a teacher. Husband is a teacher or administrator, or some, you know, some, some can both some connection to education. Why that is, I do not know. But one of the gentlemen who was not Jean's [inaudible] was friend with the wife who was a guidance counselor, if I am not mistaken, at Pearl River High School. Her husband was a math or science teacher at one of the high schools in New York City. And says, "Why do not you become a teacher? They are desperate, desperate for teachers." So, I went down to 65 Court Street in Brooklyn, and I walked in to the office of recruitment. I walked over to took a number, walk over to the desk, "Yes, sir. How can we help you?" "Well, I was thinking about a second career in education as a teacher." "Very good. What have you got? What-what can you teach? What are you, what are you equipped to teach? Do you have any educate teaching licenses?" I said, "Look, I have been teaching on the college level for the next for the last 20 years. Well, last 15 years anyway, and I have a PhD in economics. I thought I would be a high school social studies teacher." By the time, by the time he finished laughing and pulled himself up from the floor, and came back over and says, "Social studies teachers are a dime a dozen. What else have you got? Let me see your college vita, not interested in graduate school." Pull out my college. I was told, what brings a whole bunch of documents you have to [crosstalk]. IG: 1:58:38 Can I guess? FP: 1:58:40 Yes. IG: 1:58:42 Biology. FP: 1:58:44 "Either biology or chemistry, science, high school science, biology or chemistry. Absolutely, that is what we need. We have a shortage. Yes, and you are qualified, except that you do not have the ED credits. We have a program. It is called the fast track to education. You will set you up teaching science. There are some exams you have to go through." In those days, they had something called the board of examiners. New York City independently licensed teachers in those days, separate from New York state licensure, and it was actually more challenging to get a New York City license than it was to get a New York State license. But you have got to take this exam, and you have got to sit through this board, and you got to do this. You got to do that. You are going to have to take a laboratory test. Now. You got to remember the last time I was in a biology lab or chemistry lab was when I was at Harpur College. IG: 1:59:38 Yes. FP: 1:59:39 [laughs] And that is 20 years ago. IG: 1:59:41 How did you feel? FP: 1:59:42 I pulled out a review book. There were review books for these tests. IG: 1:59:47 So, you were determined? FP: 1:59:48 Oh yeah. And I looked through them, and I said, I know this stuff. And I went to all the exams. IG: 1:59:54 [inaudible] thought about giving up that illustrious career that you had it for [crosstalk] FP: 1:59:58 Thrilled. IG: 1:59:59 And teaching at Hofstra? FP: 2:00:03 I could still do that, [inaudible] and by the way, there is more to the story, because that I come back to, that is quite all right, okay, so I, so I my first teaching assignment is at the Langston Hughes High School on 18th Street. I am teaching chemistry, and-and I get a call from District 12 in the Bronx. They are developing a computer science program for elementary and middle schools in that community, school district, and from this office of recruitment. Among all the other things, there was a lot of computer technology. Because ay First Boston, we were at the forefront of modern computer education interestingly enough, because when you have to teach investment bankers how to use a computer and how to learn from a computer you are well equipped to teach in elementary school how to how to use a person the new personal computers. Oh, yeah, that role of teaching people how to use personal computers, the IBM XTS and ATS and what have you teaching all of the sales, of course, how to use their computers. Who do you think that fell to there was no in house IT department? [laughter] Eventually they developed big IT departments, but the first, the very first step that way. So, any case. So, this is all on my resume, and so get sent up. So, I ended up going up to the Bronx and-and I was hired to teach, to set up, to set up computer labs. And I had literally an unlimited budget with Apple, and I was getting all of these early Apple-Apple two computers, and then the GS is, and then the Macs and the setup computer labs. IG: 2:02:04 This was in early (19)90s? FP: 2:02:06 This was in the late (19)80s and early (19)90s, yes-yes. IG: 2:02:12 And to all of these apples, and we were just coming to education, to the universities, I remember. FP: 2:02:19 Well, it was, it was very interesting. Apple differed dramatically from IBM, not just because the computer architecture and the chip themselves were different, but because Apple said it is not going to be hardware driven, we are going to provide this hardware virtually at our cost of production. Practically give it away, because the monies in the software. That, of course, is exactly what Microsoft, what Bill Gates said IBM idiots had the opportunity to own that d- that disk operating system that Microsoft had developed. And they said, "No, we lease it" because the monies in the hardware. No bad, one of IBM's worst business decisions ever. But long story short, I ended up going from the Bronx back to Manhattan. I went to work for district 12 or district 75 which is the city-wide program for special education, and doing the same thing, teaching computers to developing, building computer labs and teaching students how to use computers and teaching teachers how to integrate computer application. [crosstalk] No, the software was widely plenty of vendors producing excellent stuff for me to sit down and do that. I might as well go to work for one of the vendors and produce the software. But the commercially available software was excellent, and getting better every day was no point. But somebody had to set up the lab, somebody had to teach teachers how to how to use this. Somebody had to teach the kids how to use it. And so-so that was me, and that went on until 1998. 1990 and in the meantime, I came fully certified. And what have you. 1998 the superintendent of district 75 city white programs called me into the office and says, you need to be an administrator. I cannot have you working on a teaching line, doing what you do. So, I became a special education administrator, and I had to go to school. So, I-I went to school. I went to College of New Rochelle prior to their financial collapse recently, although this snap. and back. Thank goodness, because it is actually a very good school. But I went there because they had a fast-track program to become an administrator, school administrator and-and then I got my New York state license as an administrator, all of it that was in the evenings, because I was working during the day. Then I became an administrator, eventually at my own school, which was located ready for this 88th Street between Park and Lex. So I was, I was 30 blocks up, right down the block from the Guggenheim. Guggenheim is right there. And while I was that, and once, once, I was ensconced up there. And that basically went from 1998 until I retired in 2011. IG: 2:05:48 Did you enjoy this part of your career more? You know- FP: 2:05:52 That is like, that is like, believe it or not. And I have used, I have been asked that question. I basically had two careers, investment banking, with the side gig of adjunct teaching of economics, and then K to 12 education, with an emphasis of special education, but also a side gig, because, and this was the thing I told you I was going to get back to. I was recruited to teach at both Mercy College and Turo College. At Mercy College, I was teaching education, special education to prospective teachers, undergraduates. And at Turo, I was teaching experienced teachers in Supervision and Administration, preparing them to get licenses as building a supervised assistant principal. [crosstalk] So I was teaching, so I had that adjunct gig go throughout my education career as well. So, the question you asked these two careers that I had [crosstalk], two 20-year careers, which, thinking back on it, which did I like better? Which one did I and the and I use this analogy before, because they have been asked that question before? How do you choose between son number one and son number three or son number two? I cannot I thoroughly enjoyed both. I have loved my careers. Both. Got a lot of self-satisfaction out of both. Um, and- IG: 2:06:39 What do you think it is the quality in you? And this is, you know we are going to ask, I ask everybody you know, what lessons did you learn from your life that you can share with students? What is the you know? What are, what are the qualities, what is the mindset of somebody who equally loves these extremely different uh- FP: 2:08:03 I had opportunities. I had, I personally had opportunities to move into these two particular careers under different circumstances. It might have been very different careers, and it I believe, I cannot prove it, because it did not happen, but I believe it to be the case that if I had gotten involved in a different career, I would have ended up loving it as well, putting myself into it [crosstalk] So it is just the way I am that I get involved in something, I throw myself at it, and I develop a relationship with that field of study, with that career, with that activity and-and appreciate and develop a great appreciation for it. So, it is less about the particular careers and more about the fact that there were two different careers. There could have been three, there could have been four, or there could have been two that were totally different, but I believe I would have been pretty much psychologically in the same place I am today, having had two successful careers and having enjoyed them both, what I would tell anybody else, first of all, because of primarily of my adjunct teaching, I believe in career oriented education on the graduate level, I believe in a liberal arts background prior to getting that professional training, because it opens your eyes to so many opportunities about which you may not be aware which professional training are you going to get when you decide I am going to be a teacher and I am going as an undergraduate to get an elementary education background, you have divorced yourself from a world of possibilities. I love K to 12 education, and I am and I love teachers, and I really believe that is an excellent career choice for many people. But how do you know as an 18- to 22-year-old that that is what you want to do for the rest of your life? At the age of 22 four years have gone by. You have been exposed to the world now. If you still feel that way, get that professional education. Go for those teaching credentials. Spend two years. Get a master's in education. That is great. Do not do it as an undergraduate. And I have taught the people who did it as an undergraduate, and that so many of them are very good teachers, but it is like a thoroughbred who runs races with blinders on to keep their eyes focused on the track. They do great running down the track. Unfortunately, they will never be able to pull a fire truck or-or run in a rodeo or do anything else, but this because that is what they have been exposed to, and they do not have a clue as to what else is out there. You want to become an accountant. Wonderful. I went to the Stern School, and a lot of the people at the Graduate School of Business Administration were studying accounting and Advanced Accounting, becoming CPAs and MBAs and what have you excellent. Get a liberal arts education. Know what the world has in store for you. Four years later, you decide, you know, I took an accounting course as an undergraduate. I took a business course as an undergraduate. I really that is where my interest lies. I am going to go to graduate school at Business Administration. I am going to focus on accounting on to get my CPA and what have you. It is not a waste of time. Do not go as an undergraduate to become an accountant. You graduate as an undergraduate accountant. Now you have still got to go for another two years before you can take the CPA exam. You could have done it in exactly the same amount of time, and your exposure to the world would have been so much greater. I am a firm believer in a liberal arts education and save professional training for later, for-for later, because it is not that much later. It really is. It seems when you were 18 years of age that it is that much later, but it really is not. So, I-I loved, with the benefit of hindsight, my broad-based education. I am not a great fan of mandates, but there are certain requirements for getting an undergraduate education that are not often enforced and I personally, and that may just be me, but after the fact, I very much value the fact that I was forced to take a course in anthropology, a course in sociology, which courses that I would Not in a million years, have chosen on my own. Where else would I have read Argonauts of the Pacific? Bronowski, so classic. I mean, you know, but you know where you know. This is important. This is if you are going to be educated, be educated, at least exposed to the world, and then narrow your focus to your interests. Well, how do you know what your interests are at the age of 18? When I was 18, I was going to go away to college to become a doctor, a dentist, a lawyer, an accountant. That is it. That is all there was no that is not all there was. And so, to the next generation. And by the way, my kids, my son, Jordan, as I said, my middle son, he went to Binghamton. He entered Harpur College. He lived at Hinman, went to that Hinman program of literature, and whatever it was that first year, got involved. His involvement at school was in the essay. He was the president of NSA my son, Jordan, as well as and then he went on to MIT, got a master's and a doctorate in engineering at MIT, and today he and he ended up focusing his doctoral dissertation in this area of research was in health systems. It is engineering systems, or systems engineering, and with a particular emphasis on health systems, and he was the director of process improvement for Maine Health, which is a large hospital management company in New England, and in fact, we are very good friends. He has become very good friends with the now soon to retire at the end of this year, Dean of Watson. Uh. And during these years, Jordan was routinely consulting with Watson about the health-health management systems programming of Watson here in Manhattan. And he was, he was part of that. So that is my oldest son. He went, he went to Cornell. My many cousins who went to Cornell. Cornell was one of the places where the educated side of our family, my uncles, who were college graduates and their children, all went to Cornell. So, I that is why I went. That is why, when I was applying to an Ivy I applied to Columbia. I was not going to Cornell because that is where all my cousins were, but my son wanted to go to Cornell. He went to Cornell. He ended up meeting and marrying his wife at Cornell. They now live in Boston. He is an attorney. And my youngest son also went to Cornell. He went to Cornell and became a meteorologist. Studied meteorology there, went out to the University of Colorado Boulder, which is where Noah is located. And they work for Noah and for Lasp. Lasp is the laboratory of Atmospheric and Space Physics. IG: 2:16:16 Does he have a graduate degree? FP: 2:16:18 Got a PhD, and he was, he was he now, he was teaching at Columbia, but he just moved about a year and a half ago up to Cambridge. At Harvard University, they have, they have an incubator, just like many of the schools do, and he is involved in a startup at-at the incubator at Harvard in data science. IG: 2:16:45 That is going to be a very big field. FP: 2:16:47 He is in this data science, and they are developing models and programming and or what have you, and-and that. And that is, that is what he is doing. [crosstalk] Incredibly proud of them all, but they all have one thing in common. [crosstalk] they all have one thing in common, and I do not mean the same parents. They all started their post high school educational careers in broad based liberal arts education, and they are all well-educated. So, they are not just top flight professionals. They are well educated. They are well educated citizens of the world. And that is important for me. That is what gives me the greatest pride, that plus the fact that they have jobs actually, they are actually making money so and they all own their own homes and-and they are not that old. I mean, you know, IG: 2:17:48 It has been really a pleasure talking to you. I think that now we should think of wrapping up our conversation together. Do you have any concluding remarks? FP: 2:18:00 Well, the project itself, when I was first approached, and when you first sent me, this goes back September, I think. But it was before, it was before homecoming, and-and informed me that that the library was initiating this project and-and that you were going to be putting together a history of the (19)60s. I thought back about my life and how much of it? And there has been a lot of it. I am suddenly three years old, so there has been a lot of life that followed my Harpur College experience. And, you know, I am not an architect, I am not an engineer, but it is fairly well known that any successful edifice rests squarely on a sound foundation, and Harpur College gave me that foundation. I am incredibly proud of that background, and over the course of my life, I mean, I have met people who knew about Harpur College when Harpur College was a tiny little liberal the liberal arts college of the state university system, a tiny little school. I-I was a student at Harpur, a senior at the time, and I was working at a I mentioned to you that I finance my some of my passionate expenses, like owning an automobile, to you and that sort of thing with my summertime earnings at a boy’s camp and one of the youngsters in my, in my cabin when I was working at a boy’s camp, was chip Fisher. And you might say, well, who is chip Fisher? Well, Chip Fisher is Avery Fisher's son. So, I got to meet Avery Fisher and his wife. Avery Fisher himself was an engineer and an acoustic engineer and the designer Hi Fi equipment and all of that sort of thing. His wife was a lover of the arts. I did not know it at the time, when I was a student at Harpur College, we had artists in residence, the Guarneri Quartet-Quartet. She was the one who got paid the bill. And I did not have a clue, and I ended up meeting her. I said, "Well, I am a senior at Harpur College. “She looked at me, "Harpur the Guarneri [The Guarneri String Quartet]." [laughter] So all I can say is, no, not everybody in the world needs to go to Binghamton University. It is a great school, but anybody who is going to pursue education for the sake of learning has my vote. Do it. Get an education, spring out into your professional careers, study for your professions and what have you. Once you know what you want, once you develop your passions, but give yourself the opportunity, an expansive opportunity, to explore lots of opportunities, lots of passionate things to do in this world, explore them, and then pick the passions that you have from that array and-and then go for it absolutely. So that is my those are my concluding remarks. Harpur was an excellent jumping off point for me, and sound undergraduate education is a great jumping off point for anybody. But explore your passions while you are while you are young, and then pursue your professional career. Do not do it backwards. IG: 2:21:59 Thank you very much. FP: 2:22:00 So that is [crosstalk] my pleasure. My pleasure. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Fred Neil Peck Subject The topic of the resource Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Peck, Fred Neil ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-12-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Fred Peck, PhD.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-01-17 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 142:03 minutes