3 10 47 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0d859f78e9f059ecc4edf71249c12d31.mp3 6d5957095abda2b5ea0e79f966775655 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b98660f9c3203b3aa53447be97f8f9af.png 8040c05abed95639500dcb8b9c6c64c0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geoffrey H. Strauss Biographical Text At Harpur College, Geoffrey studied accounting. A summer job as a counselor with the college’s Upward Bound Program for disadvantaged youth decided him on a career in teaching. He taught accounting at Broome Community College and Endicott High School for 33 years. Date of Interview 2017-12-14 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Year of Graduation 1968 Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Geoffery Strauss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 14 December 2017 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Oh, it is snowing again. Okay, so are we on? Third speaker: 00:15 Yeah. IG: 00:22 So, Jeff, please tell me your name, your birth date, and where we are. GS: 00:32 Okay. My name is Geoffery Strauss. My birth date is May 3, 1946 and right now we are in my living room. IG: 00:43 Okay, so what are the years that you attended Harpur College? GS: 00:47 For our bachelor's, I went there from 1964 graduated in 1968. Then for my master's, from 1969 to 1971. IG: 01:01 Where did you grow up? GS: 01:03 Grew up on Long Island. IG: 01:04 Where in Long Island? GS: 01:06 Baldwin, small town on the south shore, middle of Nassau County. IG: 01:10 So, so what? What were your- What did your parents do? What? What was their occupation? GS: 01:20 My father was a certified public accountant. My mother was for most of my life, a homemaker. IG: 01:27 Right. GS: 01:27 And then when I got to high school, she started a business. So she was a businesswoman for-for a few years, IG: 01:35 Oh, what kind of business? GS: 01:36 Uh, she made things, she made- took-took umbrellas and decorated them, and they had these things called bobeches. They were like a tube. She decorated those, and you put a candle inside, so the candle looked pretty. IG: 01:55 What were- where did you go to high school? GS: 01:59 Baldwin Senior High School in Baldwin. IG: 02:02 Was there an expectation in your family that you would go on to college? GS: 02:07 From the time I was born. [laughs] Yeah, that was one of the things fairly typical for Jewish families. Education is very-very important. So yeah, the expectation was- my father always said you could do anything you want, but first you go to college and then you can do whatever do whatever you want. IG: 02:24 Did you have siblings? GS: 02:25 My sister, had an older sister. She went to Smith. IG: 02:30 So of course, the expectations were for her as well. GS: 02:34 Oh, absolutely. IG: 02:35 Why did you, why did you decide to go to Harper College? GS: 02:38 Kind of a funny kind of story. There was uh, I had been accepted by Drew University in New Jersey, and I went there to look at-- it was a beautiful campus, absolutely gorgeous, like a little piece of New England in New Jersey. Uh, and they had a wonderful program for social studies where you spent your senior year, your junior year, I am sorry, abroad. So I was all set to go there, and then I got accepted at what was then Harpur College, and my mother sat me down and said, "Still, we are still paying on your sister school, Harpur College, your scholarship will take you all the way through while your father said you can go anywhere you want. This would be much less expensive thing." So I ended up going, I ended up going there. So which was actually, I guess, changed my life. My wife there. I changed my occupation there. So it was kind of interesting. IG: 02:57 Right. So what were some of your expectations going in to Harpur? Did you have sort of a career in mind that you would pursue? GS: 03:55 Yeah, I was going to, I majored in accounting, so I was going to take over my father's or join him in his practice, and then eventually take over his practice when he retired. That was the initial thing there. Accounting had no part of my life when we went to Drew, but they had a good accounting program at Harpur, so I switched, and that was my idea there. And I also enjoyed social studies, so I took a lot of classes in the social science department, and a professor there thought I was a social studies major and offered me a graduate position. But I said, I am an accounting major. He said, “You are an accounting major. Why are you taking 200 level courses?” So I said, I like it. So that was a holdover from-from Drew. I just love the politics and the history and-and that. So it is still interested in that. IG: 04:50 So you graduated with a degree in- GS: 04:53 Accounting. IG: 04:54 -in accounting, in accounting. What are you- what is your profession now? GS: 05:01 Well, of course, I am retired now, but for many years, I taught accounting at high school, the local high school, Union-Endicott, and then we also had a program with Broome Community College whereby I taught college accounting. The kids got college credit for-for that as well as high school credit. What was your graduate degree at Binghamton? And- That was in teaching accounting. IG: 05:26 Oh, and teaching in accounting. GS: 05:27 Mm-Hmm. IG: 05:28 What made you decide to go into the teaching profession rather than join your father in his business? GS: 05:38 I had in my- I forgot whether it was my freshman or my sophomore year, they had a pro- they began a program at Harpur called Upward Bound. This was a program for college or kids with college ability, but because of economic or social reasons, probably would not go to school. So this was to encourage them to go. And I became a counselor there, started working with kids, and really enjoyed it. So when I graduated, I sort of combined the accounting and working with kids and went to- started at Maine Endwell, and then moved over to Union Endicott, and played high school for 33-34 years. IG: 06:26 Was your father disappointed that you did not join him in his business? Or did he really like the direction that you were going in? GS: 06:36 It was funny. I think at first, he did not want me to become an accountant. He said as much, too much work, too much work, too much time involved. And I remember, I remember as a kid, you know, he would go- leave in the morning. He would not come home until seven at night because he worked in New York City. And by the time he got home, he did not have dinner until 7:30 or so forth. And then it was basically, after you did your homework, time for bed. So during the week, yeah, hardly ever got to see him, so I realized he spent a lot of time working, but still, that seemed like the thing to do. But I think as I went through college, he sort of warmed to the idea. For a couple of summers, I worked for him, and we worked together going into the city during the summer. We are trimester then, so we had four months off. And so I think he wanted the idea, but then, you know, I sort of moved away, and I do not think he was too upset by it. IG: 07:36 Where did he work? And did he have his own firm? Or...? GS: 07:40 Yeah, he was, he was in, he was in practice by himself, and but most of his clients were in New York City, although he had some up-up- upstate Westchester County. And then actually he had some down in Georgia too. So he would fly to Georgia, do some of his work there. And then he would, he would fly home. IG: 08:00 So what- before going to Harpur, what reputation did Harpur have in your mind and- GS: 08:10 My mind, oh, it was a real, highly academic school, high pressure school, but certainly one of the better-better schools and in the, in the SUNY system. I was out for liberal arts. And so it met my-my requirement there. So it was, it was, it was a good mesh, but it met with its reputation. It was a very high-pressure school. IG: 08:39 And when you arrived and spent some time here, did that impression change? GS: 08:45 Oh, no-no. It just reinforced, once I was a student, that everything revolved around the-the curve, you know, and if you were having a good time, there was some kid back in the in the dorm, studying a little more, which would mess up the curve. So you had a, you had to be back there and studying yourself, so you could get up on that on that curve. IG: 09:13 What was the- so you took liberal arts at first as a requirement. GS: 09:18 Mm-Hmm. IG: 09:18 So what were some- did you have any outstanding courses that you- outstanding faculty that you studied with that kind of pushed you in the direction of teaching? GS: 09:30 Uh, not actually in the direction of teaching. I had a few professors who I really liked. There was one, again, in the Social Studies Department, Dekmejian [Richard Hrair Dekmejian], who was just fantastic. He was he really- I really enjoyed the classes I took with him, and the accounting classes we had Phil Piaker, who was also a local CPA, had his own firm here, and he was terrific. I-I really enjoyed the courses I took from him, but nothing pushed me toward the teaching during the school year, it was, it was the program, the Upward Bound, during that during the summer, that sort of moved me in that direction. IG: 10:14 So you spend most of your time studying, what did you do? What was, what was residential life like? You know, you would spend all your time studying in your room or in the library. And what did you do for recreation? GS: 10:32 [laughs] It was kind of interesting back then. I remember in my freshman and sophomore year that they only had one classroom building called the CA building. Half of it was the administration, and the other, other way was the classroom building. So very often you would go there find an empty classroom. You just sit in there in the evening and then you would study there was nice and quiet. I do not know if they still do things like that, but we did it back then. The library--I did not study in the library too much. It was either in my room or over in the classroom building. IG: 11:04 Right-right. So um, your wife mentioned that she met you in your freshman year. GS: 11:14 Yeah. IG: 11:15 And could you just describe how you remember her from that time? You must have a lasting memory. GS: 11:22 Well, it was funny. She was one of the few upstate people up there. There were so many kids from the metropolitan area, so we sort of called her the funny little upstate girl. And she was very naive, very Catholic. So it was a real change for me. IG: 11:46 Yeah. GS: 11:47 Because most of the kids that I knew on Long Island and associated really with in college too, were nice Jewish boys and girls, and somehow, she-she came, she came to the fore, and there was just something that clicked, right from the very beginning, when I first met her, there was just something special about her, and seemed to work. We have been married for almost 50 years, so it seems seemed pretty good. IG: 12:13 I would say. So, did you first interact after class? Where would you go out? Would you be in your- GS: 12:24 Well, a little bit of both- IG: 12:26 -segregated dorms, which were called co-ed dorms. GS: 12:28 Well, the first semester where we were in what they considered at that time a co-ed dorm, you know, boys in one wing and girls in the other wing. IG: 12:36 Right. GS: 12:37 Then come the fall, that dorm was filled up. So I started during the summer, and then I went over to Broome when Broome first opened up. Now that was the Broome that is not there anymore. They built that building. The construction of it, even when it was brand new, we knew it was really poor. I was like, this building is not going to last. And obviously it did not, because now they have a brand-new dorms. You know, that whole section there. So we, you know, we were there. I had her in a couple of different classes, Spanish class, which was not my forte. So she, she helped me with that. IG: 13:16 She mentioned that. GS: 13:17 Yeah, sometimes by looking over her shoulder, [laughs] uh, languages were not my thing. I took Spanish in seventh grade, eighth grade, ninth grade, tenth grade, eleventh grade and twelfth grade, and they wanted to put me in Spanish. I think two were Spanish three, and all they did was speak Spanish in there. And that was just way beyond me. So they let me audit once again, and then I made it through two, and somehow, I managed to squirm through the language requirement. But boy, that was not easy for me, and it actually runs in the family. My sister had the same problem with languages. She-she took Latin, and then she took Spanish in college, and had the same, same difficulties. We have comprehensions and different thing. Languages not mine- IG: 14:04 You have ability in math, and you have probably for accounting. GS: 14:10 Well, in accounting. And what I really wanted to be for many-many years was an architect. IG: 14:15 Oh really? GS: 14:16 Uh, there was no room for me an architect. I could not do like, I could do the accounting kind of math, the higher math, calculus and stuff like that. I had a lot of difficulty with that. So the architecture was-was going to be out. But I do have a- I do enjoy building things. So that is, that is my idea. I like, I like building accounting systems. I like building physical things, IG: 14:47 Did you build any part of this house? GS: 14:47 Uh, not the house--some of the cabinetry, that clock there, that clock there. So all these things, I build the porch. If you look out in the porch. The porch I built. So, you know, I do like working with my hands, and I got that from my father. He did a lot of woodwork, so I followed with that. I have gone further than but then he did. But then I have- I had being a teacher. I had more time to really do that, and my father never took vacations except to play little golf. IG: 15:19 Um, in my mind, Harpur College at the time was really strong in liberal arts, but you said that you had good experiences in the accounting department. Can you describe what the accounting department was like at the time? GS: 15:35 Uh, kind of difficult at that time we- I was just taking courses, uh, but the idea of eventually, of course, joining-joining my father. Uh, but you know you, they had the courses set up and the catalog--this was the one you took in your freshman year; this is the one you took next, one, next one. So I just follow the progression some professors I like better than others. You know, just like in any, any of the departments, but Dr. Piaker showed he was, he was one of the one of the better ones, because he-he explained things so-so wonderfully, and he had the practical experience to do it, because, you know, he was a practicing CPA as well. Anyway, I just, I just followed her through and eventually got my degree. IG: 16:30 Were you as sort of politically aware as-as your wife at the time? GS: 16:38 She was more politically aware than me. I like more of the history part of it, but the-the mechanics of politics I enjoyed. IG: 16:52 How do you mean? GS: 16:53 You know how different countries worked. You know how they set up their political systems. One of the professors I had in one of my classes, Dr. Ulc [Otto Ulc] I believe he was from one of the communist countries and-and was a judge there and escaped into, you know, into the West. And he was really an interesting guy, really interesting guy. And, of course, he showed us how, taught us how the legal system and the political system worked in the, in the communist regime at the time. And we- you know, compared those to, you know, democracy most of the time in Europe, United States always being sort of a little different. Now, it is all falling apart, but-but-but at the time it was, it was the years of the war in court, kind of liberal, progressive, and it was, and it was kind of kind of fun. I just like those kinds of things. IG: 17:50 Yeah. Were you influenced by the Vietnam War? GS: 17:54 Oh, yeah, a lot, yeah, certainly against the war. Probably one of my reasons for not going into-into accounting itself, we could get a teaching deferment. So that-that-that influenced me a little bit, but if I did not have any interest in teaching, I do not think that would have entered my mind just-just to pick up teaching as for deferment. But that was part of it. IG: 18:17 Yeah. GS: 18:18 Yeah. Vietnam war, with to me, was a disaster from-from the get go, and it turned out, turned out to be- IG: 18:23 Were you aware of it being a disaster? Did-did- GS: 18:26 Oh, yeah-yeah. I did not think it would be such a disaster, where we, you know, I mean, the mightiest army in the world, and could not defeat a whole bunch of, basically a ragtag army. IG: 18:39 Right. GS: 18:39 But they were very dedicated, very clever, very-very dedicated to the to their cause. And I do not think we really had our heart in it. And the truth, I do not think the guys over there had their heart in I do not think the country had their heart in fighting this war. It was more of war for the politicians. And as it turned out, it seemed to be even they knew it was not a good war, but they just felt to save face, we had, we had to stay in. IG: 19:09 Was there- do- in your memory, was there a lot of student activism? GS: 19:15 Oh yeah, there was, you know, a lot of marches-marches, busses going down to Washington, DC. Yeah IG: 19:23 Were you involved in that at all? GS: 19:25 Not as much on campus a little bit, but not-not so far as going down to Washington. I stayed pretty much, you know, on campus with our studying and with our- the group of people who are our friends. IG: 19:41 Did the army recruit at all at Harpur College? GS: 19:45 I do not think so. No, I am not even sure they were allowed on campus. Looking back, it was pretty anti- Very anti-military. -military at that particular point. IG: 19:57 Um, there was a big town and gown separation, and I- in Binghamton, GS: 20:02 [inaudible] IG: 20:04 You know, town and gown. GS: 20:07 Oh, town and gown. I am sorry, yes-yes, I gotcha, yeah. IG: 20:10 So, you know, I imagine that many of the Binghamton locals were probably supportive of the war. GS: 20:18 Yeah, there was not a real close town and gown relationship while we were there at all. There was the town and there was the gown. IG: 20:25 Right. GS: 20:25 And they seemed very resentful of the campus. They did not mind us spending the money in town, but they did not associate with us. I am not sure if that is changed or not. There was very few of the students who lived off campus. IG: 20:40 Right. GS: 20:40 Almost everybody lived on campus at that particular time. Uh, so I guess the relationship between students and-and the community, I do not think we are very strong at that particular- during those days. IG: 20:58 Well, perhaps you know now I noticed that the I know that the university is very invested in helping them- Binghamton community, but before it might not have happened. GS: 21:11 Now, it is a little satellite all by itself. IG: 21:14 And you felt that very much, that you were sort of a culturally apart. GS: 21:19 Yeah, since most of us were from downstate, yeah, and more liberal, this was a pretty conservative. Was and is a pretty conservative area. Harpur sort of stood by itself. IG: 21:30 Right. GS: 21:31 You know, pretty iso- physically, it was isolated. IG: 21:34 Right. GS: 21:35 You know, on campus, small campus, lots of land all around where- which the campus owned, but kept us, kept us separate. The only way to get into town was a bus, you know, the public bus, which had to stop. And the only, you know, the mall, as we know it was not built yet. All we had was the Vestal Plaza and the stores that were there, Britts, which was a department store that is long gone. And so that is where we would go shopping. IG: 22:05 Nobody had cars at the time. GS: 22:07 Very few, very few. There was not even much parking. Eventually, I got a car. I think it was in my junior year, and that really liberated up a lot of us, but we- as far as driving around is concerned, you drove home, you drove back, but once you were on campus, unless you went out for dinner or something like that, yeah, you pretty much stayed on campus. IG: 22:31 So um, tell me about, you know, residential life more and the dormitory situation and where you would visit your wife. Did you go out? Did you visit her at her dorm when you started going out? GS: 22:51 Yeah, well, we did both--for a couple of years, couple of semesters, we were separated. I was in Broome, I think she was in Whitney, and then eventually a place opened up, a room opened up, so I went there. So we were, we were pretty close, because they locked the ladies up. So that, you know, after that the guys would go out, but, and you had to have your girlfriend back on campus, by-by-by curfew. But, you know, we would go out. We would go to dinner together. We would study together. She would help me with my Spanish, one way or another. She did not help me with my accounting. IG: 23:08 Yes-yes. I understand that there were a number of breakups in that relationship. GS: 23:35 Oh, yeah, that is the religious thing. Yeah, we had being Jewish and her being Catholic, my parents were not really keen on-on the-the-the joining of the two, but there were just something about her which I just could not- IG: 23:50 [laughs] That is funny. GS: 23:52 -could not-could not shake. So we kept on going back. And eventually we decided to get-get married. That was, that was a somewhat traumatic area, because my parents did not want us to get married because of the religious factor, and my father said he would disown us and so forth. But once we got married, he got to know her, found out the wonderful person she was and we did not, you know, we did not have any difficulty from that standpoint. But before we got married, my parents sent me to talk to a cousin who was a rabbi, to try and talk me out of it. And then from her, from her side, we had to go to, I think it called pre cana classes, which did not mean much to me, but you did what you had to do, and so we eventually ironed out all the problems, and things seemed to work. Third speaker 23:53 How did you raise your kids? Did they get the both culture? GS: 24:00 Yeah, they did, but that was basically my wife. I was not very religious. I was not very religious. And if it were not for my wife, I do not think they would have gotten much of the Jewish side. But we celebrated both. They did not go to Jewish religious school. They went to Catholic school. Well, you know the after-school kind of Catholic school, Sunday-Sunday school for a couple of years until they were confirmed, but after that, they did not, they did not go and we tried to show them that there were different ways of looking at things. Everyone has their own stuff, but there was really basically a commonality of all religions. But my kids aren't very religious either. Maybe that is my fault, but Jan was the one who made sure that we celebrated both and that the kids knew of both cultures. IG: 25:51 Yeah. Do you think that-that kind of acceptance of, you know, of just of the coexistence, the possibility of coexist, of two religions, coexisting side by side in a family. Was that in any way influenced by sort of the liberal attitudes on campus at the time, or is that something that came to you. GS: 26:23 That is an interesting- that is an interesting question. I cannot answer that. I do not know if it was my liberality. It was more my love for Jan than anything else that seemed to- I could not shake her out of my mind. She was, she was, she was pretty important to my life. From the time I met her, there was a chemistry there, obviously, and I was just determined to make it work. But two of us were determined, even though I said, "No," this is not going to work. This is not going to work so we would break up. Was not her breaking up with me? Was me breaking up with her because this is just going to be too much of a hassle. But then could not get her out of my mind, so I would be back. And then eventually I just scrapped that idea of this is not going to work, and decided it is going to work. IG: 27:14 Did you have expectations of staying in Binghamton, or did you want to return to Long Island? GS: 27:20 Well, that is sort of, sort of interesting. I- uh, Jan was from Niagara Falls. I was obviously from Long Island; we were physically almost right in the middle. It was four hours to her house, four and a half hours to my house, you know, her parents’ house. So her parents, I think, wanted us up there. I know my parents wanted us down there, and we thought, well, this is a good compromise in between, you know, from a physical standpoint. Plus the city in Long Island really started to get to me. It was just the long lines, the hassle down there, working for my father for a couple of summers, pretty much turned me off from-from wanting to-to be down there. It was just too stressful--was not-was not- I adapted more to the Upstate way of life than it was to the to the to the city way of life. We like to go to visit down there. I mean, museums and things were great, nice place to visit, but we did not want to live there. IG: 28:24 So you stayed in touch with Binghamton, with Harpur College and then Binghamton University through the years, right? I mean, you went back to graduate school. GS: 28:37 Right. IG: 28:37 Would you- your wife mentioned that you had exchange students that- welcome to- into your home. GS: 28:44 Right. IG: 28:45 And some of them came from Binghamton. GS: 28:47 Uh, the exchange students did not come from Binghamton. IG: 28:50 Not the exchange but what was the name of the program? GS: 28:53 There was a rotor- the rotary program, yeah-yeah, that, yeah. The Business rotary had the exchange program where they brought students in. They would go to high school, but they needed homes for the for the kids, and they would rotate them, I think, every three or four months, so they had experience with various families in the United States before they, before they went home. And through, I sort of, I think I gave her the idea, I am trying to, trying to think way back, because my-my school participated in the program. We had kids from the program, and my department and the language department shared an office. So they had, they had asked, does anybody have you know- is anybody interested in hosting some of these kids? So I went home and asked my wife, and she said, "Oh, that would be a great idea." IG: 29:44 Right. GS: 29:44 So this started really when my when my daughter was born. IG: 29:48 Right. GS: 29:49 So 40 some odd years ago, and it was, it was really, really, very nice. The kids came into the house. They- our kids had had exposure to. IG: 30:00 Yeah. GS: 30:01 Kids from all different- IG: 30:04 Parts of the world. GS: 30:05 -parts of the world. And then eventually we went and visited some of them in Brazil and so forth. And of course, Jan had the Spanish we had a lot of Spanish speaking students. We did have one from South Africa. We had one from the Philippines, I think all told we had 11 or 12-12, kids here and we and we also had a professor, a teacher, who stayed with us for a few weeks, because we-we were like a sister school of a German- our German department had a relationship, so the- our teacher went over to Germany, and their teacher came over here Helmut, and he was, he was, he was quite a fella. IG: 30:49 But, you know, looking back, there was not a lot of international students or diversity at Harpur College when you were going there were there any students...? GS: 31:00 I think, I think there was not to the extent that they have today. IG: 31:05 No. GS: 31:06 We developed a friendship with one guy from, from Africa, Yeah, your wife mentioned. Yeah. And he was, he was a super guy, but also very-very bright man, and went-went back. We-we have been in contact on occasions, through-through email. IG: 31:28 Right. GS: 31:29 Other than that, we have not but he was a really gutsy guy. He went back to try and improve a lot of the blacks in-in Africa. And he went into some problems with-with the government, which was a, you know, a white government back there. So he was, he was a very, very brave fellow, but, and just a super-super nice guy. IG: 31:51 So you stayed in touch with him, since, you know what he did after graduating. GS: 31:56 Yeah, he-he went on to graduate school, I believe, in Canada and also in England, he kind of got some degrees. We did have a tendency to lose touch during those-those years. We just hit on each other, you know, once in a while. IG: 32:12 By email, by phone? GS: 32:14 Well, back then, it was basically by-by contact, either someone knew of what he did, or things of that nature, or maybe by phone, email was unheard of back then. IG: 32:26 Right. GS: 32:27 So it was not until, I guess, a few years ago, somehow, we got in touch with him, got that phone. We somehow made contact there. It was interesting. We were down in New York City and visiting my sister-in-law, and there were posters on the telephone poles, and he was giving a talk, and we wanted to see him, so we called, and we for some reason, we just could not make contact there, and I was, I was really disappointed and but I cannot remember how, but we did make contact again once email came about a few years ago, because he was a friend, not only of jam myself, but also the-the group of people who we were with. So somehow, we made and then, you know, by this time is his brother had passed away, and, you know, he had his kids and-and what have you. And then we lost, lost contact again. IG: 33:30 So it seems like you had a close group of friends that- GS: 33:34 Yeah, we did. IG: 33:35 -stay with- what-what do you think maybe it was a special thing about the school that kind of engender that type of relation, GS: 33:44 Yeah-yeah. I think so. IG: 33:44 Not everybody stays in touch with their- GS: 33:49 Yeah, well, I think part of it was-was you needed a support system there, because of, again, the pressure, the pressure of the school, so you needed a support system to maintain your-your sanity and your ability to keep on going. So we developed this-this group of, I do not know about ten of us, I guess, and several of us married each other, you know. So now-now we are couples. So we-we certainly stay in touch. We see each other. We are going to see each other over New Year. One of them, one of the one of the group, became a doctor, so we use enough money to buy a home in the Poconos. So we all, we all meet in the Poconos, and then we then meet again, usually during the summer. And now he is going to retire, so I think they are going to be moving permanently to the Pocono place so well they will be close enough to- [crosstalk] IG: 34:47 -is that, did he come to the (19)67 reunion? I see. GS: 34:50 No-no-no, he did not know. The reason being that they, they had another commitment. Uh, but they had, they had wanted to, but they-they they could not do it, but he had graduated at that time to the (19)67-(19)66-(19)67 time. So he was, they were the only ones at the group who did, who could make it. IG: 35:04 [crosstalk]-interested in- what was his name? GS: 35:13 Oh, Wolraich. Mark Wolraich. IG: 35:16 How do you spell it? Because I might [crosstalk] GS: 35:18 Oh, boy, W, O, L, R, A, I, C, H. IG: 35:23 Mark? GS: 35:24 Mark, yeah, and his specialty is working with-with kids like-like our granddaughter. So when our granddaughter was first born and we started to see difficulties with her, he pretty much knew what was, what the problem was, and-and without him, she would not have gotten the help as soon as she would have. It is so difficult to get young kids to see the doctors and the organizations that will analyze and finally determine that-that she was autistic, and he knew people up in Rochester, and he got us, got us in-in just a couple of months, where, if we had called ourselves, it would have been over a year before she could have been seen, because they were just so backed up. I mean, so few facilities, so many kids like this now. So he has been through any-any calls to see how things are going. He looked at the SUNY has a thing for autistic kids, which-which we did not know until the situation came and then and John said- IG: 36:36 It is new center. It is a new center, right? GS: 36:38 It is a school. IG: 36:39 It is a school. GS: 36:40 It is a school. Yeah, it is down behind the old men's gym. Yeah. So we went and visited there, and we went and visited the Handicapped Children's Center in-in Johnson City, looked at both programs and because she is, she is kind of social, where a lot of autistic kids cannot. Along with Mark's input and so forth, we decided that-that would- the one at Johnson City would be a better fit for her. So it has- he has been just terrific. I do not know what we would have done without him. He just moved mountains for her. IG: 37:19 That is very fortunate. GS: 37:21 Very fortunate. Yeah, it is one of those things, you know. It is who you know. IG: 37:24 It really is. GS: 37:25 We were very fortunate. Yeah, one that he was our friend, and that he just happened to go into this field. He runs a big program out in the university where he where he teaches. IG: 37:26 Where does he teach? GS: 37:30 Uh, trying to remember, he has moved around so often. Jan-Jan [calling his wife], Midwest. IG: 37:47 Well, it does not matter, I mean, um, so maybe you could tell me about some of the ways um, that you have seen the university change over the years. GS: 38:09 Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, it became a university. It was not a university. And we were there when we started, and while we were there, it became the State University of New York at Binghamton. IG: 38:20 Right. GS: 38:21 That was the last couple of years. So they developed a small graduate-graduate program, and you get graduate degrees there. And just a physical plant itself has grown enormously since we were, since we were, we were there. We just had the little-little core the brain was-was there. No, but the brain. IG: 38:22 Yes-yes. GS: 38:23 So just-just basically the-the old buildings and the brain were there with a couple of dorms. Then by the time we finished, or almost finished, they built what we called the self regs, which is the Hinman complex, and-and the cafeteria up there. And of course, they have expanded their-their program tremendously, I mean, to the point where they have a school for-for kids with-with difficulties, right on campus. I mean, we had- we did not know the building was there, let alone that there was a school there. IG: 39:18 And now they are expanding the health sciences to Johnson City. GS: 39:22 Right-right down in Binghamton, they have a campus, so they are going to have one in Johnson City. So now they have a, you know, a nursing program, which was not there when we were there, in addition. So, you know, the physical plan and the academic pursuits have just expanded dramatically since-since we have been there over the years. IG: 39:47 Do you think that it still has the spirit of Harpur College? You know, the reputation that it had of being socially committed students and academically rigorous. How has, you know, the- GS: 40:04 From everything I understand, yeah, it is rated one of the, you know, the highest schools in the state university system. IG: 40:10 Yeah. GS: 40:11 So I would say absolutely. And the kids, when we, when we go over there, we do not get off and talk to this, to the students therapy. You could see it. It seems very academic. They have the libraries in each of the complexes now. Now we just have the library now they have satellite libraries all over. The quality of the faculties remain very high as far as doctorates are concerned. So I would say academically, it is probably as good as- IG: 40:43 As it was. GS: 40:44 As it was, yeah. IG: 40:45 But what really differentiated, you know, Binghamton now from Binghamton at Harpur College when you were going? Because it was a smaller school. GS: 40:55 Much more. That is one of the reasons we went there. IG: 40:57 It was, it was a smaller school, was it would you say that it was politically active more so? GS: 41:05 Yeah. IG: 41:05 Do you think that-that is was a response to the times, to the (19)60s, the culture those sort of the youth culture of the (19)60s? Or do you think that it was, you know, peculiar to unique to the school, or, you know- GS: 41:23 Well, I think that the universities, a lot of the universities at the time, in the (19)60s, with the Vietnam War, Kent State, and a lot- IG: 41:23 Right. GS: 41:23 I know that stuff occurred during, during our, our growing up time, and I think that necessitated all the activity, the political activity that was generated on campus at that time, and now-now, I think again, because of the political situation which we have, it probably has, well, it rejuvenated our political interest and made much more active again, after years of, you know, raising a family and and-and working, we have got much more politically active now as a result of the Republicans taking over. So it is- [crosstalk] IG: 42:17 Do you think seeds were planted at Harpur College? GS: 42:19 Yeah-yeah, I think so, yeah. Plus-plus our-our liberal attitude, all right, we are much more inclusive that society has become. We-we just like everybody. That is one of the reasons we like to travel. We like to meet people, talk people. One of the advantages of taking the cruises that we do is we sit dinner with people from all over the world, and you get to talk politics. Although it was interesting. The cruise we just got back from, nobody taught politics. It was sort of a subject which was not brought up. This is the first time, and just so- IG: 42:56 To Sydney, when you went to Sydney? GS: 42:58 Yeah, we went to Australia and New Zealand. IG: 43:01 Right. GS: 43:02 People just steered away, even people from other countries just did not bring it up, which is totally different. IG: 43:08 Well, maybe they are afraid to hurt you by saying anything negative. GS: 43:12 Yeah. Well, you know, you are on vacation, you do not want to get into an argument. And in all-all truth, we probably would not get into an argument because we probably would agree with them. [laughs] As far as the situation is concerned, we are an awful situation. I am really worried about this country staying together as the United States, and we are so-so polarized that I just will be amazed if we survive this as a united country. So hopefully things will change. Do you remember any legends or great stories about Harpur College at the time? IG: 43:53 But the only one was Lake Lieberman. Talk about that. GS: 43:59 Well, behind- in the Broome complex, behind the Broome complex and behind the Newing dining hall, which is now, I understand it is gone. There was a pond, and the story was the time that one kid fell in, and they said, "Should we get them out?" And said, "No, just leave them in." So that is, that is how, that is how the name came about. That was the story. I do not know what the real story was- [inaudible] Lieberman got but that was the story at the time. So that was one of the thing. And then we had the coat ceremony. IG: 44:41 So did the kid live? GS: 44:42 Oh, yeah. I mean, this was not a pond, still there. It was not very deep, and it was brand new. It was a man-made pot. So that was, that was one story which we had, and that was, that was, that was behind our dormitory, so that there were. Two other, I guess, activities, the stepping on the coat ceremony, which was on the Esplanade, which is now gone, unfortunately, that took place, and that was annually, in the spring, when the cold weather stopped and the warm weather began to officially state that spring was here, they would have a stepping on the coat ceremony, where they take an overcoat, do a few speeches in old, an old English--some, some kid wrote an old, I cannot repeat it. Some of the people remember, I do not know if you have a recording of it, but it is it was quite something. And then they, when it was official, they would step on the coat. Okay. Spring has now arrived. That was, that was the official statement. IG: 45:44 Did you see the ceremony performed at any point? GS: 45:47 Oh yeah. IG: 45:47 Oh you did. Speaker 1 45:47 Oh yeah, I saw it, but I cannot repeat the Old English speech that was given, but oh yeah. That was probably the last couple of years I was there. And then the other- [crosstalk] IG: 46:00 [inaudible] as-as being a student on campus, did you attend this? Oh-oh, so people kind of you know, plugged into the student events. GS: 46:05 Oh, sure. Oh yeah. IG: 46:10 on your [inaudible], yeah. GS: 46:11 When we were there, you had the campus was our life. IG: 46:13 Yes. GS: 46:14 When we were there, that was, again, we did not do much off campus. Campus life was-was the life. And there were no other campuses to go to at the time. So, uh- IG: 46:24 Were you into sports? Were you into any other activities? Really? GS: 46:27 No activities. That is kind of interesting. One of the reasons I went to Harpur was--I was a target shooter, and I was on the rifle team in high school, and Harpur had, at the time, a target range by the time I got- but when I came up here, I found out that they had basically closed it down. So I was quite a, quite a disappointment to me. It was still there, but it was not being used. So I even brought my rifle up with me, which had to be locked up with the, with the campus police, and I never took it out. Yeah, or they would not let you keep in the dorm or anything. So that is where it had to be kept. And then if, well, even the campus police did not have guns back there, all they had was a night stick. Everybody has guns, yeah, on campus. I mean, kids have guns too. IG: 47:20 I do not think so. GS: 47:21 Oh! Third speaker: 47:21 Maybe not on campus, but in America- You go to the Walmart and purchase- GS: 47:26 I know it is a gun crazy culture. I know a lot of our friends, yeah, we call them gun nuts, but a lot of my friends are gun nuts, so it is just part of our crazy cultures. I do not understand it, and I am an old NRA person, but that was the NRA back when I was a member. Was a lot different. That organization has been hijacked from an educational to a political group. Anyway. That is sort of an interesting story of itself. But yeah, from a sports I am not very sports oriented. I am also very, probably because I am very, not very good at sports. I am more into reading and doing my woodwork, things of that nature. I wish they would have to work- a wood shop on campus. We could have worked, worked up, but they-they did not. That would have been really cool. And the but the one other activity, if you are talking about sports, was train you were [inaudible] up train, you would- the cafeterias had fiberglass trays. That was very important, that they were fiberglass, and we would steal them borrow and there was a hill right by Broome that goes down towards the-the old gym and the fields down there. So when it snowed, we would take these trades, we would sit on them, and we would shoot down the hill. So that was that was about the extent of my-my kind of physical activity, but it was kind of funny. At some point, they bought new trays, and they were metal trays that were encased in a rubberized plastic case that was textured and they would not slide. So that was the end of tray, unless you got some other device. But we, I guess maybe they did it to save the trays in the in the cafeteria. IG: 49:32 Probably somebody caught on. GS: 49:35 Yeah. [laughs] IG: 49:38 So, you know, tell me what you miss most about those years. GS: 49:43 It had to be the people and the camaraderie we had with-with our group, that was great. I mean, we still meet with the people, but we have, we have, we have spread out so we do not see each other all the time, but I really miss. Living and being together with all-all of our friends, that was really great. I do not miss the pressure of the, of the academics. I mean, it was, I think 10 or 15 years after I graduated, I would still wake up in the middle of night, well, for my nightmare, saying, oh my god, the papers due tomorrow, only to realize, you know, you graduated, like, 10 or 15 years ago, but you had these nightmares, but the people were terrific. And I think also living, you got to learn to live on your own, away from your parents, you know, without their protection- IG: 50:37 But in a community. GS: 50:39 -but in a community which was which was loving and-and safe for the most part. I miss, I miss that a lot, because the world is not safe anymore. My world is not-not safe the way it was. You like-like any most colleges, you are protected. So. IG: 50:58 It was safe, it was a haven. But the world still was not safe with the Vietnam- GS: 51:03 Oh, absolutely. IG: 51:05 -and- GS: 51:05 Yeah, but- IG: 51:06 I am being very aware that you could be- [crosstalk] GS: 51:09 Oh, drafted. Oh yeah, the draft was-was-was an ever-present worry, yeah. But while you were on campus, as long as you had that deferment from- for being a student deferment. You were, you were safe as soon as you graduated. You were, we were in trouble. But they-they had the-the war boards. Well, one of the ways you could be deferred from-from the armed forces was to take this exam. And if you got a certain score in the exam, then you could continue your student affirming. If you did not do it, then you were up for- to be involuntarily taken into the, into the army and sent over to Vietnam. So I remember those. And then they had the lottery late later on, where they picked your name out of a or your birth date out of a hat. And if they picked your-your date, it was more difficult to get into deferment, you know, so and those people who were later dates than they would be recruited later on, but if they had the number of bodies that they needed to-to satisfy the-the army at that particular point, if you were in the-the end of the-the lottery, you did not get called. IG: 52:36 Did any of your classmates get called during the college? GS: 52:42 Uh, only one that I remember, we were not very close. One of the brothers ended up going over, and then, of course, we lost contact with him once he was recruited. But most of us went on to graduate school so we could continue our-our deferments, or we had occupations such as teaching which-which would defer. So most of us did not go. We mark got into a program whereby he had to do public service while he was in medical school, and that kept him out of the army, per se, but he was in the Public Health Service on an Indian reservation. IG: 53:27 Oh, how interesting. GS: 53:27 Well, they adopted- IG: 53:29 Here in northeast, or...? GS: 53:32 Oh, no-no, out west. Okay, see, I- IG: 53:45 You want to stop this? GS: 53:47 Yeah. Third speaker: 53:54 Okay. IG: 53:59 Soum, tell us about- do you recall any great characters from among your group of friends? Could you tell us about anyone you know who was a real character? GS: 54:15 Māori Cruise. I think he was from Cuba. IG: 54:18 Yeah. GS: 54:19 He was a character. IG: 54:20 How so? GS: 54:24 Never took anything seriously. He was always one of those free flight people who just seemed to enjoy life. I think that was probably his Cuban upbringing. He got a mo- he even got a motorcycle. You know, it was my first and only motorcycle ride. Was holding on for dear life. Māori around, but he was, he was just a fun, a fun guy. I do not even think he lasted for more than a year or two at school. He just enjoyed life too much. But he was a real character. We had a, we had a good time, if you wanted, if you wanted a good time. Māori was the guy to go out with. I think he was Cuba- he was Cuban from Cuba. IG: 54:59 Was he a Cuban American or Cuban from Cuba? So, how did you how did he talk about Cuba? How did you feel about Cuba at the time? Did you think that it was an enemy state? GS: 55:13 I do not think so. We-we did not talk politics. As far as that was concerned with the Māori, everything was-was social. You did not talk to him seriously about things like that. In my memory, he was just happy to be here and was enjoying life. So he- his happiness was very infectious. IG: 55:43 How do you think your classmates would remember you from your years at Harpur College? What would they say about you? GS: 55:50 Oh, gosh, if they even remembered me. IG: 55:53 Basically your friends. GS: 55:54 Well, those people, the ones are still friends. Oh, I think they would remember me. IG: 55:59 How? GS: 55:59 Well, how? I do not know. IG: 56:04 [inaudible] yourself from those years. GS: 56:06 Sort of, I am sort of a jokester. I- not practical jokes, but I use a lot of double intenders. I turn words around and things like that. That is sort of my reputation. But also sort of to a certain thing serious. And you can have serious discussions, which we do whenever-whenever we get together, we all talk politics and so forth. We are all of the same kind of political persuasion. And- IG: 56:36 So, You are pretty much the same person that you- GS: 56:40 I do not, I do not see me changing. I think, I think I am more tolerant. I thought I was tolerant them. I think I am more tolerant now. I think my attitude toward women have changed dramatically. I was used- I was brought up at a time when, you know, women did what they were told. Kind of idea. Wives did what they were they were told they were subservient to the husbands. Jan made quick disposed of that very quickly, [laughter] and obviously it was for the good, you know, but I learned quickly that-that is not the way you treat a woman or a wife. IG: 57:27 So you are emotionally intelligent, not only book smart. GS: 57:30 Well, I like to think so. Plus, I was in a profession where there were a lot of women. IG: 57:34 Right. GS: 57:35 In teaching there were a lot of women, so I always considered them my-my equals. I never considered them subserving to me in any way, shape or form. But then I felt the same way about secretaries and custodians. I never- there were a lot of professionals who think of those people and-and the I hate to use the term lesser occupations as somehow being inferior. And I was always friends with all these people. Yeah, we had to treat them- I mean, they are people who just were in a different field. That is all. That is why I looked at it. So I think most of my friends feel that way. And this, I think when they think of me, they-they think of a person who's very accepting and very tolerant and liberal. IG: 58:24 Good. Just [inaudible] I forget this one thing, you were on a judicial board, the punishment for your wife's infraction. GS: 58:38 Oh, not her infraction, her roommate. IG: 58:40 Her roommate. GS: 58:41 Her roommate, her roommates, infraction, yeah, yeah, judicial review board, we had [talking to his wife] No. [his wife replies] Okay. Okay, I have to read this later. Uh, supposedly we were self-governing. Okay. When it came to the real thing, of course, the administration took over. But for minor infractions of the rules, a student was brought before the judicial review board. Nine out of 10 of these things, maybe 99 out of out of 100 were curfew infractions. So we had to come up with some way to punish the girls because their boyfriends brought them home late. I mean, looking back, I was so absurd, [laughs] but we did not take it really all too seriously. Because, I mean, even then, we knew that curfew was kind of, kind of kind of dumb, so we imposed a penalty on Jan's roommate, who came back late, of having to make chocolate chip cookies for the dorm. I mean, this is a kind of a [inaudible]. We had this little, little cubby hole of a kitchen with this little tiny oven, and I knew that Jan mother had sent her with cookie trays and mixing bowls and so forth. So I thought, gee, this would be a good, a good thing. I like chocolate chip cookies. The dorm likes chocolate chip cookies, so why do not we have her make chocolate chip cookies for the dorm? So I did not realize at the time how much work was involved. We probably would have thought of something else, but it was sort of like almost in jest, almost in fun, because a silly infraction, you make a silly punishment. I mean, what do you- what kind of things are you going to do? How did you join this judicial board? You applied. IG: 1:00:49 You applied. GS: 1:00:49 You applied. Yeah, you know, they had different organizations on campuses like the radio or-or the newspaper thing. And I applied. And I do not even know how you got accepted. Right. Just all of a sudden, I was I said, "Sure, I will join that." And you were there. IG: 1:01:08 You were there. Well- GS: 1:01:11 So long ago. IG: 1:01:14 I am, you know, I think that we are going to wrap up soon. I would like to know if there are any concluding remarks that you might have about Harper College and your experience there, and you know how it impacted the rest of your life? GS: 1:01:32 Well, obviously it had a great impact in my life. My best friends, I met there, and we kept, we have kept in touch for 50 years, met my wife there, and we have been married for 50 years, but looking back on it, we had a super-duper education for a super-duper bargain price. The tuition was only $200 a semester at the time-- region, scholarship took care of that, so it was room and board, which I think was $400 or $435 a semester plus books. Why we do not continue to do that is beyond me. I know there is a cost involved, but here we had a situation where superb education a price that anyone could-could pay for and then we went on to make a country. Why do not we continue to do that? Encourage people to do that. I mean, people cannot just go out in the world without an education, especially now. So why do not we willingly and happily educate our populace at a reasonable price, right? Why burden them with years of debt? It is crazy. So I am definitely appreciative of the education I got, and every time I think of the costs, it just makes me laugh, because how- it was what an opportunity we had, what an opportunity we had, and we did not. I do not think we realized it at the time, how great, because we thought that would continue forever. State University is always going to be $200 a semester, and the quality of the education was just terrific. Could not, could not do better. And I assume the quality of education that the kids are getting there to State University today is at least equal to what we had, although the cost is-is a lot more, well, still cheaper than private schools, but because my son went to Ithaca, so we know how that is. But what an opportunity. I am indebted to the state of New York for the education they provided me, both elementary high school and college. Could not be what I am today without them. IG: 1:03:59 Well, thank you very much. GS: 1:04:00 Oh my pleasure. My pleasure. IG: 1:04:02 Thank you so much for your time welcoming us into your lovely home. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Geoffrey H. Strauss Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Strauss, Geoffrey H. ; Gashurov, Irene Description An account of the resource At Harpur College, Geoffrey studied accounting. A summer job as a counselor with the college’s Upward Bound Program for disadvantaged youth decided him on a career in teaching. He taught accounting at Broome Community College and Endicott High School for 33 years. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-12-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 64:09 minutes Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/61faf5adf2056a1ced09017b71a6f01e.mp3 5dbb208b0b28b1915ea19412d193e5d8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e85ad2453c346fda2314bc68a0625e20.jpg ae8a1b6e44333c50901140cc497e4250 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-02-28 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Harold Magalnick Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Dr. Harold Magalnick is a pediatrician in the Phoenix area. He is the co-owner of Pediatrix with his son, Dr. Michael Magalnick. He is a medical consultant for several school districts in Phoenix. He is a board member of Arizona’s Children Association. He is on staff with Phoenix Children’s Hospital. As a biology major at Harpur College, he worked at a Binghamton hospital for the mentally ill and attributes his sense of service to this formative experience. After graduating from Harpur, he completed his MD, cum laude, from SUNY Downstate. He served in the U.S. Navy as a staff pediatrician. He has an interest in special needs patients and school health. He has been involved in many community projects, including Make-A-Wish Arizona for more than 30 years. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medicine; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni who are pediatricians; Harpur College-Alumni who served in the U.S. Navy; Harpur College – Alumni in community service Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harold Magalnick Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Magalnick, Harold ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Harold Magalnick is a pediatrician in the Phoenix area. He is the co-owner of Pediatrix with his son, Dr. Michael Magalnick. He is a medical consultant for several school districts in Phoenix. He is a board member of Arizona’s Children Association. He is on staff with Phoenix Children’s Hospital. As a biology major at Harpur College, he worked at a Binghamton hospital for the mentally ill and attributes his sense of service to this formative experience. After graduating from Harpur, he completed his MD, cum laude, from SUNY Downstate. He served in the U.S. Navy as a staff pediatrician. He has an interest in special needs patients and school health. He has been involved in many community projects, including Make-A-Wish Arizona for more than 30 years. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-02-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Harold Magalnick.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-02-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 43:47 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/92bb28272932ead5dd449c523159ebf3.mp3 86a679d63ff15addb34aab0c12acd3b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-10-17 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Henry S. Flax Year of Graduation 1971 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Dr. Henry Flax, a native of Brooklyn raised in Queens, began his academic journey at Harper College, where he studied history and developed a lasting interest in art history. He was actively involved in student government and campus life, even organizing transportation services for fellow students during holidays. He went on to earn a master’s degree in Student Affairs Administration and later an EdD from Teachers College, Columbia University. Dr. Flax built a distinguished career in higher education, holding leadership roles across several institutions, including LaGuardia Community College, NYU, SUNY Downstate Medical Center, and Hunter College (CUNY). His work has spanned student affairs, enrollment management, and institutional operations, with a focus on client service, quality control, and cost management. He also served as a sector head for the Health Science Centers within the SUNY University Faculty Senate and currently contributes as a parliamentarian for the Senate, reflecting his longstanding commitment to academic governance and student development. Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Brooklyn; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Henry S. Flax Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 17 October 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay. So, this is, um, Wednesday, October 17, 2018, and I am here, Irene Gashurov, is here with Dr. Henry Flax. So, Dr. Flax, perhaps you could tell us where you [inaudible] HF: 00:28 I was- IG: 00:29 First of all, tell us where we are. HF: 00:31 Okay. We are in Binghamton, New York, being recorded at the DoubleTree Hilton. Again, my name is Henry Flax. I was born in Brooklyn, but grew up in Queens, New York, the Bellrose section. After attending Martin Van Buren High School, I enrolled at Harpur College, SUNY Binghamton. IG: 00:55 Okay, we are getting ahead of ourselves. So, who were your parents? Who- what did they do? HF: 01:05 My father was an air traffic controller and rose to be Deputy Chief at LaGuardia tower, as well as working at John F. Kennedy Airport and other airports prior to that. My mother was the first in her family to earn a master's degree from Columbia University, but during most of my life was a housewife and mother. IG: 01:35 So did your father go to college? Was he- HF: 01:39 He did. He was a graduate of City College. IG: 01:41 I see, I see. So-so, probably, what were the expectations of you? Were you the only child? Or did you know- HF: 01:52 No, I am the third of three sons. My oldest brother went to what is now City University, first to City College, then to Baruch. My middle brother started at Columbia as an undergraduate and did graduate work at both CUNY and Cal at Berkeley. And I began at Harpur College and went to Columbia for my master's and doctorate. IG: 02:19 In- at Teachers College? HF: 02:24 Yes. IG: 02:25 So, what-what were some of the reasons that you went to Harpur College? HF: 02:36 I was a relatively young high school graduate, having skipped a grade in junior high school, and I thought it would be good for my emotional development to get away from home. Harpur seemed to offer a small enough campus environment that I would not be lost, but a very high-quality academic reputation, which attracted me. I had looked at other SUNY schools, and it seemed to be the right mix of academic rigor and small college environment. IG: 03:15 And just remind us what was the year that you entered Harpur? HF: 03:23 Started with the incoming class fall, 1967. IG: 03:29 1967 so what were, what was the reputation of Harpur in (19)67? HF: 03:40 Very strong academic quality. The college billed itself as the quote public Swarthmore to incoming students. I cannot remember whether that was part of the admissions campaign literature, but that was certainly what it was known as- IG: 04:00 Really? So, just remind us what the reputation of Swarthmore was at the time. I mean, it is a very good school, but that is all I know of it. HF: 04:14 High-quality liberal arts, small private college on the main line outside Philadelphia. IG: 04:23 Thank you. So, what were some of the first impressions that you had of, I mean, you are a city kid come to, you know, the boondocks in the middle of nowhere. So, what-what-what were some of the impressions that [inaudible] Harpur had? HF: 04:39 I, uh, it did have the small college feel at the time; there were only two completed residential colleges. Dickinson and Newing. Hinman had just opened two residence halls, and that was it for. For on-campus housing, it was very easy to get to know almost everyone in the collegiate setting. I did live on campus, so had very little interaction with the town that came later through (19)68 from probably 1968 to 1970 when there were peace marches that went through Binghamton and Johnson City, and you really got to see the difference between, quote, town and gown at that time, it certainly was a different experience than living in New York City, but I focused very strongly on my coursework in the fall, and so that was my primary goal, maintaining grades and getting used to the academic rigor of college. IG: 05:57 So, did you have a sense of what you know you would like to learn here? Did you have a career in mind? Or do you have, did you have a subject that you wanted to pursue or? HF: 06:10 When I entered, I planned to major in history, which, at the time, you majored in social sciences, there probably were not enough courses to be strictly a history major, and the goal would have been to be a history teacher in high school. IG: 06:29 So, you said that the differences between town and gown were striking. Did this- did this include the student community? Did you feel that there were differences in world views approaches between the city kids and from upstate New York, the students from upstate New York, the students from upstate New York? HF: 06:58 Certainly, the students from downstate metropolitan area, Long Island, Westchester, and New York City tended to be more cynical. Many of them had been accepted to Ivy League schools or the quote, private Swarthmore. But 1967 was pre federal financial aid, and so many of them could not afford those schools, and Harpur was their second or their safe school, as it were, so there was a disjointed approach to learning, where many of the downstate students felt they should be, somewhere even more rigorous than Harpur was at the time, and the upstate students and some of us from downstate also felt we were glad to be there, IG: 07:58 But I mean in terms of interacting with these students. Did you make friends from the upstate population, or were your friends mostly like yourself, city kids? HF: 08:12 No, when I arrived, I was one of 32 students who came from Van Buren High School. We were a huge contingent. We quickly grew apart over our first and second semesters, and I made friends with people from Rochester, a man who became my roommate for two more years, and then people from towns as small as Montour Falls. So, it was a very diverse experience, a good learning experience about people who came from other backgrounds in upstate New York and small towns way out on Long Island, Suffolk County. IG: 08:53 So, what did they make of you? I mean, you collectively from Van Buren, and what did you collectively Van Buren make of them? I mean in generalities, and we know that there are individuals and exceptions, but just impressions. HF: 09:16 I think the Van Buren people, because we sat on the city line. We all lived within New York City Limits, but it was a very suburban part of Queens, so we were already bifurcated in terms of our thinking. Kids from Brooklyn did not think we were city people, and people from Nassau and Suffolk only thought we were city people. So, it was an interesting- IG: 09:41 That is so true. I remember. HF: 09:43 It was sort of an interesting approach, a little schizophrenic for us. IG: 09:50 Yes, and that is so true that I am glad that you reminded me, because that is that really was the thing. Um, so-so, could you just describe a little bit of what the campus looked like at the time? HF: 10:13 The overwhelming aspect was mud. There was a tremendous amount of construction going on. So, the Dickinson area, the- what I guess is now the peace quad, was pretty much finished, but Hinman was still being built. Science buildings were being built. The fine arts building was being expanded. The museum was being created. So, as I say, it was a lot of mud. [laughs] IG: 10:49 And where were your classes held? HF: 10:53 Freshman Litton camp was actually held in seminar rooms in Chenango Hall. They cleared the first floor, one of the first-floor wings of residence rooms, and made them into seminar rooms in an attempt to break down the large lecture class. IG: 11:13 Do you mind if we pause because- Okay, we are back with Dr. Flax. So, you were telling us about the campus and what it looked like when you when you arrived, and your first impressions. How do you feel that it has, I mean, it has changed tremendously, but what are some of the notable changes that you are most struck by when you see Binghamton campus now? HF: 11:50 Now, I had not been back on campus for many-many years and was actually here last April to attend a performance at Tri Cities Opera with another alum who maintained a much closer connection to Binghamton, both the city and the campus, than I had over the years. We had time before the performance and drove onto campus, and the most striking thing to me was the loss of Newing College, the fact that I had lived for two years in Chenango Hall and then two years in Delaware Hall. And what is on the footprint of Delaware Hall is a much, much larger building. I think all the names have now been changed to Old O'Connor or Old Johnson, and now what had been Newing College names are all old Dickinson College names seems like a lack of creativity to me, and one of the highlights of my time as a student was the unbelievable creativity on the campus. So, I am a little disappointed in that. IG: 13:09 Tell us about that. Tell us about the unbelievable creativity on campus. HF: 13:17 It was a group of very strong faculty, young faculty in general, who had come from other places but were determined to create an academic community, and as I say, very strong students who were looking for small college liberal arts environment. I think Binghamton, at that point, had a very strong reputation in the humanities, a little less so in the social sciences. If you were interested in the sciences, you generally went to Stony Brook. If you were looking at the four university centers, Albany was sort of late to the game and was still considered a teacher's college that was just becoming a university center, and Buffalo was very large and in the process of moving from downtown out to Amherst. So very different experience. But students really took control of their lives, their social activities, a very strong student government, a strong radio station. I became involved in something called the student center board, which ran the student activities on campus, which were largely student-run rather than staff-run. IG: 14:49 So how did you get involved in the student board, and what-what role did you have? HF: 14:54 I had actually started as a dorm rep. To Student Government, and then in (19)68, as things got crazy all over higher ed in this country, thought I had a better niche with the student activities area. What initially got me interested was that the student center board ran buses to all the metropolitan areas at holiday time. So, for Thanksgiving or for Christmas, you did not have to come into Downtown Binghamton to take a Greyhound or a Trailways bus. The buses were brought on campus, and I worked very closely with other students to organize buses that made sense in terms of filling them to capacity and then having them stop in particular areas. So if you lived in Yonkers and I lived in Queens, there might have been enough people from Yonkers and Queens to put together a bus that went to the raceway into Jamaica, or maybe there were enough from Nassau and Queens that went to Jamaica and Roosevelt field, but we ran full buses, and we made considerable amount of money. IG: 16:15 So, it was kind of similar to what your father was doing, but on the ground, right HF: 16:19 [laughs] In a way, I suppose, [laughter] he brought them in, I sent them out. [laughter] IG: 16:32 So, you know, so you were involved in this. So, was it part of your stipend? Was it an internship or work study program, or something that you- HF: 16:45 There were no internships at that time. I did it as a volunteer. You would get a free bus. If you were a bus captain, you got a free ride. That was the incentive. IG: 16:55 I see, I see. HF: 16:56 And you just had to make sure that you loaded the right number of people and the right names on the bus collected their money, or that was done beforehand, actually. So, I started as a bus captain, became Chairman of the Transportation Committee, did a few other jobs, and then chaired the student center board, probably my senior year. IG: 17:16 In your senior year. And you mentioned (19)68 and (19)68 was such a time of ferment at American universities, but all over the world, you know, there were, it was a time of student rebellions and rethinking how and retain rethinking the world. And how did you experience 1968 politically at Harpur College? HF: 17:48 I think it was the beginning of a whole radicalization of the campus. You had, as I said, this sort of cynical, unhappy group on campus to begin with. But fall of (19)67 was very traditional. I remember thinking as I was driving up here today, what was my first, you know, week or month like. And I remember something as absurd now when you think back that our resident assistants or dorm leaders or whatever they were called at the time, and we were in men's dorms and women's dorms, so they organized a quote, unquote panty raid where, you know, freshmen men ran around screaming, Silk-silk," and hoping that some woman would throw her bra out. It was really juvenile, but very traditional, sort of early (19)60s campus culture. And then in (19)68 things sort of got blown away. People had friends at Columbia because a lot of us came from New York City. We knew people from our graduating classes who had enrolled there, and of course, that was a major upheaval, where the student strike and the takeover of Low Library really took East Coast students into where the Berkeley Free Speech Movement had been five years before- IG: 19:22 But that is on the Columbia campus. How did it resonate to Harpur? What was going on at Harpur in 1968? How were you informed by those you know, feelings and ideas of students from the East Coast? HF: 19:40 People started questioning authority. There were all sorts of curfew rules. Women had much stricter curfews than male students. If you had a woman in your room, you had to put a book in the door, privacy, all of those things. Things were really washed away in a time of ferment; the Dean of Students was, I guess, removed and became dean of the summer school. He was just thrust out because he was a very traditional figure who could only think in very traditional ways. So, there was a certain amount of upheaval among the administration with students, I think less so with faculty, but more questioning of curricula, student course, and teacher evaluation started to come in that was unheard of prior to (19)68, (19)69, and (19)70. IG: 20:45 But at a place like Harpur College, where you- did you feel that you had more of that, you were more, not on equal footing, but you had certainly more access to the faculty than you would have elsewhere, and somehow that broke the barriers down. And I- HF: 21:07 Some faculty were very receptive to the changes, I think, particularly again, in the humanities, little less so in the social sciences, the hard sciences tended to be the most conservative as they traditionally are. IG: 21:21 So, what kind of things you know, what kind of things were spoken of about the cultural climate, the change in cultural climate? HF: 21:32 Uh, ending-ending curfew, Hinman was, quote, unquote, the self-regulated dormitories. So, there were no curfew rules. Students were expected to enforce their own codes of behavior, which set a tone for the other campus, campus units that said, “Well, why not us? "You know, just because they are living in brand new housing, it is only typically open to upperclassmen. There are upperclassmen in Dickinson, there are upperclassmen in Newing, so it really threw everything on the table to be discussed in terms of how things were done--student activities. It is not just going to be a traditional dance, a social, or a mixer. Certainly, the influence of rock music had a major change the drug culture to a lesser degree. IG: 22:34 And where were you at all of this? Did you welcome these changes? Were you excited about them? HF: 22:42 I think in (19)68 at one point, there was a there used to be something called the Esplanade, which connected Dickinson and the Student Union. It was a little bridge, but that was sort of the focal point for student speakers, and people congregated around I remember feeling at one point in either (19)68 or (19)69 when everybody went across and sort of stormed the administration building. They were going to confront the powers that be. It was very frightening to me. I did not quite accept it or understand it. IG: 23:22 You were young. You were very young. HF: 23:26 I was young, but I was also very naive. I was young emotionally as well as you were younger than most freshmen, and it took me a while to sort of embrace that change. IG: 23:40 Yeah, I could see that. I mean, not of you, but I could see, actually, even of myself, you know, in such a circumstance. So, what were, you know, what were we have not spoken about your classes at all, and your interaction with your student, fellow students, your faculty, just tell us some highlights from really kind of mind-altering type of classes that you had with If faculty really left a big impression on you. HF: 24:25 Yes, there were some in English, but I think the greatest impact was in the art department and art history. John Connolly taught the survey course, 100 or 101, I cannot remember the number right now, and that I took in my sophomore year as an elective or to fill a humanities requirement. But that really excited me. And then there was a young instructor. Lawrence McGuinness, who was teaching architecture courses, really architectural history, and that really became my love. I was very sorry I either did not change majors or pursue architectural history on the graduate level. I think in some ways, I did very well academically. I really enjoyed the subject--remained a member of the Society of architectural historians to this day. IG: 25:28 What-what- HF: 25:29 It is purely avocational. IG: 25:31 What period especially interested you? What? HF: 25:36 Oh, it has changed over the years. IG: 25:37 It has changed over, but here, when you were at Harpur, what did you what did you get excited about? What-what- HF: 25:46 Probably the year 1200 was very exciting, because it was a move from Romanesque to Gothic, and it was an individual style that came out, something like the Bury St Edmunds crosses is a real epitomy of high year, 1200 style art, and you see it in architecture as well. But since then, I have developed a real fondness for Art Deco and Art Nouveau architecture. How did you view the IG: 26:24 How did you view the architecture? The- did you have slides? Or how did you see that in the classroom? HF: 26:33 All Slides and then papers had to be done outside. So, I think my first architecture paper was on the Philadelphia Museum of Art, Parkway Museum. So, I literally went to Philadelphia and spent a weekend photographing the exterior, the interior, and then writing up the paper. IG: 27:01 So-so-so architecture have a great impact. What, how did you how did you spend your free time? You did this student center. You were invested in your studies. How did you spend? How did you relax with your friends? HF: 27:22 Was also very involved in the governance of Newing College, working with the master of the college and with the student leadership there, that was very fulfilling. HF: 27:39 Had tried out probably junior and senior years, and I think certainly in terms of academics, we were interested in the whole ecology movement and actually got a faculty member hired to teach an ecology course through Newing College. IG: 27:40 Which year [inaudible] HF: 27:54 Ecology, of what kind of the environment? HF: 28:05 Environmental ecology, yeah. IG: 28:08 Um, and what got you interested in that? HF: 28:15 I think just conservation, and probably Rachel Carson's books. But there were other people who were interested, and we thought, well, you know, there is funding. Why don't we try to support the faculty line to, you know, put our money where our mouth is. IG: 28:33 And of course, during that time, there really was little notion of the environment, you know, you see, this was the era of polymers, of plastics and disposable culture and disposable things, right? So that is very interesting. What-what were some of the sort of, you know, political and social discussions that you would have with your student, with your fellow students, if- HF: 29:05 Politically, it was certainly about the escalation of the Vietnam War. And I guess the fact that Lyndon Johnson did not run for a second term of office, Eugene McCarthy was a very popular candidate on campus, the election of Richard Nixon, which was such a setback for most students. And, you know, starting in (19)68 and really, I would say, almost ending in May of 1970 with the deaths at Kent State. This was an almost unbelievable shock to students at Harpur that the police could come on a campus and shoot you. And this really brought things home. And I said, “To feel like there was a very traditional beginning to my college career,” this spike in radicalism, and then my senior year, almost a return. Clearly, a reformulated campus, things had changed, but a numbed campus frightened campus that, if it could happen there, could it happen here. IG: 30:27 That is, that is really that is really interesting, that is really interesting. So it was, it was Kent State. It was not, it was not, you know, lark, it was Kent State. Were there police aggression elsewhere at universities? HF: 30:46 Yes, Jackson, state in Mississippi, which was actually a sister school to Harpur, and I cannot remember what the relationship was, there was a man named Jack Sperling who had something to do with the two campuses, but there were deaths at Jackson State as well as Kent State. But I think again, Kent State, the deaths were white students. It was the National Guard being brought on campus, very similar to what happened at Columbia, when the New York City Police were called on campus, and students were dragged out of Low Library. IG: 31:28 So, but it is also interesting that you said that there was sort of, you know, this spike to radicalism, and then coming down, maybe, you know, understanding. But yet there was a spike. So, it was mind-changing, you know, it changed you in some way. HF: 31:44 Oh, absolutely. IG: 31:44 Yeah, absolutely, so-so, you know, after-after Harpur College, what happened to you? HF: 31:53 I thought I would go into architectural history, and I actually thought I would enroll in the program at Columbia. And one bit of bad advice I got was, and I do not know why, but that I was too good for the Columbia program, and the only place I should go was Harvard, and I was ready to go back to New York City at that point. And I did not get very good career counseling or advising, certainly not good academic advising. And I ended up just making the decision with-with one person on staff who said, "Well, you know, what do you do apart from history?" Because there are no jobs in history. So, I thought, well, I am very involved in Student Activities and student life on campus. There are clearly staff people here who do that. How do they get into it? So, I ended up enrolling in master's program at Columbia in Student Affairs Administration, and that got me back to New York City, where I wanted to be for personal reasons, and sort of kept me in a university environment, which I want. IG: 33:10 Right-right-right. So, what you arrived at Columbia in? HF: 33:17 Fall of (19)72. IG: 33:19 In fall of (19)72, in fall of (19)72. So-so you had, you know, you had, and so just give us a- you know- HF: 33:32 No, I am sorry, fall of (19)71. I graduated in (19)71 I finished my master's in spring of (19)72. IG: 33:39 So just give me a sense a career trajectory. So, you finished this master's from Teachers College and-and then what-what did you do? HF: 33:51 I ended up getting a job at Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, which is another unit of SUNY. IG: 33:57 Right. Yes, I know. HF: 33:58 And started as night manager in the student center, and then was promoted to Assistant Director for activities, and I also worked as head resident in one of the residence halls there, and then felt there was no upward mobility in that job, so moved on to associate director of the Student Union at the college at New Paltz, so another SUNY school, but that was very tough to be a young single person in a very small town. I remember going out one night because Main Street in New Paltz, at least at that time, was just loaded with college bars, and I thought, I do not want to sit in this apartment. I cannot ride another 30 miles on my bicycle tonight. I need a drink. And the next morning, I kept having student after student come into the Union and say, "Oh, we heard you were at McGuinness last night." So, I realized that was just not going to work for me. IG: 34:59 So, I imagine that you left. HF: 35:02 I left, and I became Director of Student Services at a college in New Jersey [crosstalk]. At that time, it was called Jersey City State College. It is now New Jersey City University in Jersey City. So, it gave me the opportunity to live in Manhattan and commute right out, which was nice, having a reverse commute and a much larger job than the one I had in New Paltz with significant budgetary and personnel responsibilities, which I wanted. IG: 35:34 So, you worked there for? HF: 35:37 I was in Jersey City for 11 years, and then I got a phone call from one of my former students who was working for a marketing firm in Manhattan, and she said, "We have an opening for a vice president at my company. Would you be interested in applying?" And I said, you know, I guess I laughed, and said, "I have absolutely no qualifications for that. I have never worked in business." And she said, "It is, it is just the same as what you do at the college. You just use different terms. It is customer service, not student service. You work with budgets; you work with personnel. This job would be Vice President for Administration of the company; you could certainly do all of those things." IG: 36:25 Wow. HF: 36:25 And I threw my hat in the ring and subsequently got the job. IG: 36:30 So what year was this? HF: 36:33 This was 1988. IG: 36:35 1988, and you were living where in? HF: 36:40 At that time, I was living in Greenwich Village, so it was very nice. It allowed me to sell my car immediately and not deal with alternate side of the street parking. I could walk to work on a good day, but on a very short subway ride, and I could finally get decent meals at lunch instead of a college cafeteria. IG: 37:03 Also, you know, it is always very interesting to me when an academic makes a change over to industry, working for private industry. So, what was that shift like? What skills did you bring? I mean, obviously, you know your administrative skills, and what were some of the differences that you found? HF: 37:31 I think the reason I was hired was to do staff training and provide a much better and deeper level of customer service for the firm's clients. What happened was I got caught up in account work and did less and less training and more and more major account supervision. The first year, it was all fascinating to me because it was all new. And then I realized by my second year that the only real criterion for success was, " What was your bottom line this quarter? How will you exceed it in the next quarter? And by the third year, I realized, if that was all there was, I was going to go crazy. And I-I thought about my life and who I was, and I thought what I liked about working in academia was a group that thought about other things besides the bottom line and allowed you to explore and self-explore and really go in different avenues and directions, even though you were doing basically administrative work. And so, after three years, I left and went to- IG: 38:49 That is an excellent way, you know, the thoughts are so resonant and so interesting. I am sorry- [laughter] HF: 39:00 But then I did return to higher education as director of Counseling and Student Services at New York University, which was the best of all at the time, because it was a walk to work. IG: 39:12 So, you measure the, you know, the value of an employer by how- HF: 39:20 Proximity to my home. IG: 39:21 Yeah, exactly. I understand. So, what were the years that you were in at NYU? HF: 39:30 1991 through 1997. IG: 39:33 Right. Could you also go to doctorate somewhere along the way? HF: 39:37 I had started my doctoral work when I was in Jersey City and then stopped out when I went to work in business, because it made no sense. But when I went back to NYU, I picked up the doctoral work again at Columbia. I had thought of transferring to NYU, but they had really arcane academic regulations. And although I worked very closely with the Academic Dean in the School of Education, his-his advice was, "We are not going to change our rules. You would do better to get your degree from Columbia. Take as many free courses here as they will let you with tuition remission." IG: 40:21 Right. Well, at least, at least they were truthful, right? HF: 40:23 He was, he was a wonderful advisor. And my biggest problems were with the registrar at Teachers College, but we worked through them, and I earned my degree subsequently. IG: 40:36 And so, what did you specialize in? What did you what was your focus? The focus of your dissertation. What was it on? HF: 40:44 I was looking at community college transfer counselors and their role in moving students from community colleges into four-year institutions. IG: 40:55 That is very relevant to us. HF: 40:59 So, I had again talked to this academic dean at NYU, and he said, " You know, everybody looks at college presidents, everybody looks at students. Nobody ever looks at the people who do the work in the middle. And he said, I think if you worked on a subject like this, you would be working with four-year schools, you would be working with two-year schools, you would be working with staff members. I think it would be a very rich study. And so, it was actually partially quantitative, but largely qualitative. And I think it was a very rich study, and a lot came out in terms of the differences between transfer advising and transfer counseling. And the success that these individuals had moving students who, in many cases, had very low self-esteem into schools like NYU that they never thought they could ever approach, much less enroll in. IG: 42:00 Right-right. So, what is the, what is the role of the advisor who is helping such a student? HF: 42:09 I think they looked at their jobs as the information dissemination piece, was the transfer, advising the mechanics, how to do it, what courses to take that would transfer based on their major requirements, their academic interests, the counseling piece was for them, the more exciting piece of getting students with generally low self-esteem or very limited vision of their opportunities in the world. To say, “Yes, I can do this, even though my family has told me a woman should only be a secretary and that a college education is a waste," I was able to tell this woman, "No, you are so bright and you are so motivated, you can, you can do more than be someone's assistant." IG: 43:11 So-so, where did you have an opportunity that is really wonderful. So, where did you have an opportunity to implement- HF: 43:19 The stuff? IG: 43:20 The study. HF: 43:24 NYU has a large program called the Community College Transfer Opportunity Program, and that I used their feeder schools for my qualitative interviews, as well as some other campuses, but it was very interesting to see, and I think that model has been adopted around the nation now. IG: 43:49 Oh, fantastic. S HF: 43:52 Oh, it has been, it was very-very productive and very rewarding. I subsequently could not move up at NYU with the doctorate, and I did want a deanship. So interestingly enough, I ended up going back to downstate in 1998 as Associate Dean of Student Affairs. IG: 44:12 Interesting. HF: 44:14 So handled admissions, financial aid, the registrar, international student advising, and disabled student advising. IG: 44:23 Fantastic. That is, that is fantastic. And I know that downstate produces, somebody told me the most number of medical graduates in the country. Is that true? HF: 44:36 Not sure, in the country, certainly in New York state. HF: 44:37 New York State, certainly, New York State. HF: 44:40 Absolutely New York State. It is the largest graduating class. IG: 44:44 And so and so. How long were you there? HF: 44:47 I stayed from (19)98 to 2004. And then I became associate dean for Enrollment Management and Student Development at LaGuardia Community College, which is part of CUNY. IG: 45:02 With such an innovative community college, it is really kind of the flagship of all community colleges. So, what role did you have to make it that way? HF: 45:13 The major thing I did was the college had made a decision that, instead of having siloed admissions, financial aid, registrar, and advising offices, they would create an Enrollment Services Center. So, I came on board at the beginning of the construction. I had no input in the original design, but my role was, really, how do you meld four very disparate offices that have been treated very disparately, quite frankly, by the administration, into one harmonious team. And we did some very innovative personnel changes and programs to make it happen, and opened a beautiful, 25,000 square foot facility with a combination of generalists and specialists to serve students. We put in an electronic database so that students did not have to randomly be called by mistake or stand in line, they were able to sit in a very comfortable lounge setting similar to what we were sitting in right now, and then have their names called over a loud speaker when it was their turn, so they could be doing other things while waiting. But we tried with the electronic database, we were able to assess what we were doing and how we were doing it. So initially we realized we were doing some very basic financial aid work for students that if we built a computer lab and had people serving as, I guess, mentors, they could sit at a computer and learn to do it themselves, filling out FAFSAs, updating forms. And so, we took a lot of that traffic out of the Enrollment Services Center by building an adjacent computer lab, and at check-in, finding out, okay, you need to see the registrar. This is a complex issue. You need a specialist. You need to drop and add a course. You can do that with a generalist. You have a financial aid inquiry that can go to the computer lab. Someone will teach you how to do that. And so, it helped empower students to take care of their own enrollment services business, and it-it provided better service and avoided staff burnout from having to answer the same repetitive questions, [crosstalk] literally-literally. IG: 47:51 I am sure. And since so much of the population at LaGuardia are immigrants, and you know, first generation, they need that extra hand-holding when approaching bureaucracy of any kind. I think it is- HF: 48:08 Absolutely. IG: 48:09 -fear-inspiring so. HF: 48:13 And then finally, I-I did some work at Hunter on a biotechnology project. IG: 48:19 Wow. HF: 48:19 And then returned to SUNY, downstate, in my final act as the coordinator for the residency program in the Department of Pathology. And that got me back on the University Faculty Senate, which brings me to Binghamton today. I am no longer a senator, since I retired at the end of 2016, but this past June, I was selected to be the next parliamentarian for the body starting in June of 2019. IG: 48:55 At downstate, or here? HF: 48:57 At SUNY wide. SUNY wide. IG: 48:59 SUNY, tremendous. So, tell us about this new role. So, a very big role. HF: 49:05 The parliamentarian advises the President of the University Faculty Senate. And you may know the most recent immediate past president, Pete Neffer, who was a geology faculty member at Binghamton, he served two terms as president of faculty senate statewide and parliamentarian guides the president, not only in terms of the rules and regulations of the meetings, in terms of the bylaws and Robert's Rules of Order, but as sort of a senior advisor to the body the parliamentarian particularly helps with the Governance Committee and with the campuses any questions that come up about bylaws or procedures or confidential issues that they do not want to share on their own campuses, the parliamentarian serves in that role as well. IG: 50:02 So, you are it is almost as though you are an attorney, you know, but you are advising them about a different set of laws. HF: 50:09 Right. So, if someone asked me about Binghamton's bylaws, I would not be familiar with them. First thing I would have to do is send me a copy of your bylaws or point me to your website. So that I can see what the situation is. At Downstate Medical Center, I helped rewrite the bylaws, so I am far more familiar with my own former campus’s bylaws. IG: 50:33 So, what kind of issues do you resolve? What kind of issues come to your desk? HF: 50:39 Right now, well, I am I am in my quote, unquote training year or parliamentarian elect, there still is a parliamentarian, and she has done this job for seven years and is ready to step down. So right now I am shadowing her, but she has had some issues on campuses where people have come to her for consultation about differences between administrative leadership and faculty governance leadership, and how would she suggest they be solved, so she has had a hand in that, as well as when it has to escalate to a formal consultation or visitation procedure. Certainly, we both. I have been sitting on the Governance Committee for several years. Last year, we started trying to do what we thought was a minor update to the bylaws, and as we looked at them, we realized does not work anymore the way it is constructed, and so it has become a wholesale reorganization and rethinking of the bylaws. I think the role of the faculty senate president has grown tremendously since he or she became a member of the Board of Trustees. And so, they do as much, probably, as a trustee as they do as faculty senate president, which meant, okay, we need to expand the role of the vice president. That cannot just be something somebody does out of their pocket. That is a real position that has to do a lot of coverage for the President. So, what is the appropriate role the committee tangled with, okay, should the President be seen as a college president or university president, sort of being the outside face of the organization, and the Vice President taking on a provost role, sort of running the committees and the sectors. So, I think we have come up with a good first draft. It is actually going to be unveiled to the Senate Friday morning, so we will see how well it is received. But I think it is going to go through several iterations before the existing bylaws become some-some new set of bylaws. IG: 53:05 So, your meeting- what is the what is the group consist of you and- HF: 53:11 University Faculty Senate or the Governance Committee. The university faculty senate is represent-represent faculty and staff representation from all 29 state-operated campuses and system administration. So, there are a portion of the representation is apportioned by number of faculty and staff on campuses. So downstate has four senators because it has a very large professional staff, based on the hospital. Morrisville might have one senator, much smaller campus. Binghamton, I think, also has four as a university center, large faculty and professional staff, and they really deal with issues of governance system-wide, but the Senate is broken into what are known as sectors. So, the four University Centers comprise a sector, the five academic medical centers comprise a sector, and they meet during the plenaries to discuss issues that are really specific to those sectors. So, in 2011, when downstate was encouraged by then-Governor Patterson to purchase Long Island College Hospital. It not only brought down state to fiscal ruin but really endangered the entire system. It was a ridiculous decision, but, you know, people were not going to argue with the governor. That became a major focus of not only the academic health science sector, but issues for faculty senate at large, and because we had our President sitting as a trustee, there was a lot of interaction between the Senate, the sector, and the Board of Trustees. We were meeting with the Chair of the trustees’ academic health science sector, as the academic medical sector, because we were afraid they were not getting a full picture of what this meant to a campus. So, there was a lot of it was a good communications vehicle. IG: 55:40 I see. HF: 55:40 Things do not always percolate up through the Chancellery as they should, and it is very good to have faculty and professional staff who are on the ground, invested in their campuses, who are willing to do this volunteer service. IG: 55:57 So, let us connect it back to Harpur, and you know the, what is the do you- I mean, did you come from a liberal minded household? Because did you come from, you know, a household that that kind of prepared you for this type of thinking and outlook. I mean, because you are so sort of, you know, progressive and yet, and yet, you know, you have so much knowledge and struck knowledge of regulations and how the system works. And I mean, where-where did the-the first sort of seedlings for-for this type of mindset come from? HF: 56:52 Well, I think, you know, my parents were very bright and thoughtful people. My father tended to be more conservative than my mother, but I think probably the exposure through my temple youth group in high school started me on some sort of leadership roles, certainly at Harpur, being involved in Newing college governance and Student Government, campus wide, and student center board, sort of becoming the boy bureaucrat- IG: 57:27 Yeah-yeah. HF: 57:29 -that I became, [crosstalk] I think was very- IG: 57:32 bureaucrat for very kind of, you know, forward-looking causes. I mean, you know. HF: 57:40 Yeah, I am not sure where the progressive piece comes from. I think my grandmother, I know, is a suffragette, so maybe, maybe that and a couple of my aunts tended to be more probably progressive than my own immediate family. So maybe they were role models. IG: 57:59 Right. And probably living in New York and being in a student environment. Did you read the piece about the in the New York Times just a day ago--it was written by- I forget his name, a conservative professor, and he lamented how university administrators are far more left-leaning than even faculty. HF: 58:27 Now I missed that piece. I am still very involved in a lot of volunteer causes. So last week, I am a UUP delegate. So, I was at the UUP delegate assembly in Buffalo, and of course, this week, I am at the plenary. So, I stopped preparing for UUP and started preparing for these meetings. And in the middle, I am I serve as secretary of my co-op board. So, I had a meeting last night, so I think it was prep work to be done, and follow-up will be done on that, so. IG: 59:02 Do you, may I ask about your family life? Did you have a family? Did you- HF: 59:09 I have a partner. We have been together for 22 years, living together for 20 years. IG: 59:17 That is nice. That is very nice. Um, that is- HF: 59:23 He actually got me involved in UUP. IG: 59:25 Really? [inaudible] HF: 59:27 I was management confidential as an Associate Dean, so I could not be at the time, but when I came back into pathology, I was able to join the union at that point. IG: 59:41 You know, I do not know how you know comfortable, or how you know this is maybe not, and this is outside of the scope of this interview, but I would be very interested in-in the gay community at Harpur College. You know, during the time I am going to meet with somebody tomorrow who is going to talk about that. HF: 1:00:08 Well, let us say, in my freshman year, there was no gay community. IG: 1:00:13 Yeah. HF: 1:00:15 It just did not exist. Although interestingly, I guess, when I was running for student government, I remember speaking to some people in the basement of my dorm, and they- we should pause for a second. IG: 1:00:43 Okay, so we are back with Dr. Flax. HF: 1:00:48 Just recalling campaigning for student government meeting, Bill Jones and Arni Zane, who would later become very well-known modern dance dancers and subsequently choreographers. So that was probably my first exposure to anyone who was actually out in a very limited way in college. And then we had several committees on the student center board, and there was a young man with a lot of enthusiasm, Martin Levine, who became our dance committee chair and did a phenomenal job changing the whole culture of what dance was at Harpur and-and bringing it into the-the 1960s from where it had been in the 1950s he subsequently became a major gay activist in New York City, and unfortunately died during the AIDS crisis in the late (19)80s. I think the first gay student organization probably was established in my senior year, but I was not part of that at all. IG: 1:02:09 Right, yeah, when you, when you think, I mean, it is we, really, I mean, everyone, everyone, I think, every thinking individual has gone through worlds of change, anyone who has lived a life. HF: 1:02:32 I looked at the generation before me that lived through the Depression and World War Two, and this was certainly not as life-altering as those two experiences, but I think the campus upheaval in the (19)60s and the Vietnam War were a microcosm of change for our generation. IG: 1:02:56 I absolutely agree. I think maybe less violent with less bloodshed. But, you know, a huge, a huge change in outlook and thinking. I think we are running out of time, unfortunately, because I have- HF: 1:03:19 {crosstalk] a four o'clock bus. IG: 1:03:20 No, no, I have a four o'clock pickup. [inaudible] But-but are there any concluding thoughts that you have about, you know, the value of your Harpur College, the impact that it has had on your life? You know things like that any-any- HF: 1:03:41 I think it was a wonderful education for me, as much or probably more outside the classroom than in the classroom, in terms of my psychosocial development. I think it set a career path for me that when I left higher ed, went to the business world and then had to reevaluate. It convinced me that I probably made the right choice going into higher education. I might have done some things differently. Perhaps I would have started as a faculty member in architectural history and then, probably, I think, moved into administration one way or another. But I certainly do not have any regrets about attending Harpur when I did, with whom I did, I made some-some very good friends along the way. In fact, when I was hired at Downstate for the associate dean position. The woman who was the vice president at the time is someone whom I had admired very much when I worked on the student center board. She was a few years ahead of me, and it did not register with her until the end of our interview, when she asked, am I the Henry Flax attended Harpur College. Said, "Yes, I am," and I realized she had made a far greater impact on my life than I had made on hers, but we did work together very successfully for seven years. IG: 1:05:14 That is very nice. Well, thank you very much. HF: 1:05:22 Thank you for the opportunity to do this. IG: 1:05:24 It is a pleasure. It has really been a pleasure. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Henry S. Flax Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Flax, Henry S. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Henry Flax.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-10-17 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 65:27 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f3c98b757796ce138c8b5a38e4e4e6bf.mp3 093a99df6ee3bfd947acb3ae9fcccf45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-11-09 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jackie and John Visser Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Year of Graduation Jackie 1969 John 1973 Biographical Text Jackie Visser grew up in West Islip, New York, on Long Island, and attended Harpur College, where she met her husband, John. After graduating, she began her career teaching in Catholic schools and later earned her New York State teaching credentials. Jackie went on to earn a master’s degree in reading from the University of Scranton and transitioned into educational leadership, serving as an elementary school principal, Director of Elementary Education, and ultimately Assistant Superintendent. After retiring from public education, she began teaching at the university level and has spent over a decade as a lecturer in the Department of Teaching, Learning, and Educational Leadership at Binghamton University, where she prepares future educators and coordinates the Educational Administration program. John Visser grew up in Goshen, New York, and attended Harpur College, arriving during the summer session of 1965. After graduation, he pursued a career in education, and he has since retired. He and Jackie have a son and continue to live in the Binghamton area. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Jackie and John Visser Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 8 November 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay, we are on now. JV: 00:02 Okay. My name is Jackie Visser. IG: 00:05 Yes. JV: 00:05 I am I am working here at the Department of Teaching, Learning and Educational Leadership as a lecturer, and we are sitting in my office on November 8, 2018. JoV: 00:15 I am John Visser, retired, in the same office. [crosstalk] [laughter] IG: 00:25 Okay. So, you know, maybe we can answer certain questions sort of in tandem, you know, if anybody wants to JV: 00:33 Jump in. IG: 00:34 Jump in or digress, you know, it is up to you. It is a conversation that we are having with the two of you. So where did you grow up, Jackie? JV: 00:45 I grew up on Long Island. I was West Islip. Is the name of the town. Lived there, went to school there. All my kindergarten through 12th grade classes were there, and then I came to Harpur College. JoV: 01:02 I went to Goshen, New York High School, lived there for a long time, and came to Binghamton in it was July, the summer session of July, 1965 there were about four or 500 students, and that is when Harpur had the trimester situation. And each-each semester lasted for four months. And the summer session went July, August, September and October. JV: 01:34 Parts of October. IG: 01:36 So, Jackie, tell me a little bit about your upbringing. Did your parents go to college? What were their expectations for you? Was education valued in your family? JV: 01:50 Education was certainly valued, but neither of my parents went to college. I mean, I was, we were part of that baby boom generation moved out to a development on Long Island. My father had been in the army. He was a factory worker. My mom ended up driving a school bus. But there was absolutely no doubt in anybody's mind that I was supposed to go to college. And that was just part of what my family was like, it was a, you know, I had two brothers who neither, one of whom went to college. But for some reason I am the one. I was the oldest and, and I know my-my father was one who just insisted that, you know, you get as much schooling as you possibly can so. IG: 02:36 And why do you think that that was? Why do you think that you were, you know, selected in your family to go on to higher education? Your brothers were not well. JV: 02:50 I think it might have been. I was the oldest, and I was and I was doing really well in school. So, I think they saw that possibility, whereas my next youngest brother was not getting all the A's, and he, you know, I think they were probably more opportunities for boys who did not have a college education at the time, as opposed to opportunities for women who did not have a college, college education. So, I do not know. I never really discussed it with them, why they, why they wanted that for me, but that that, maybe that was it. IG: 03:31 Why did you decide to go to Harpur and not another school? JV: 03:37 Well, cost was obviously a factor. Back in the (19)60s, there was this opportunity called the Regent Scholarship, which was paid for your entire tuition. And so state schools was obviously the goal, you know, was where I was going to go. Stony Brook was fairly close, but that would have meant, and I felt like I wanted to get away from from-from home, right? And guidance counselors really pushed me here. There was, there were three or four of us from my high school who ended up coming here. IG: 04:15 What did, what was the reputation of Harpur College back then? JV: 04:20 It was, it was, it was- IG: 04:21 What did they say about it? Your guidance counselors? JV: 04:24 -highly selective, hard to get into. They encouraged me to apply for the summer semester, the summer trimester. IG: 04:33 I see. JV: 04:34 Because supposedly the trimester, the summer session was-was easier to get into than the than the fall semester trimester. So, I do not know. I do not know if I would have gotten into the fall semester or not. You know, I was a good student. I had pretty good SATs, I guess, but I do not know. I was too naive to understand all that at the time. IG: 04:55 Did you have an idea of what you wanted to what studies you wanted to pursue? JV: 04:59 Absolutely not never. [laughs] Oh, did not I? We had the luxury those days of being in a liberal arts college. IG: 05:12 I remember. JV: 05:14 Started out as a math major, that list about two semesters, tried economics for a while. That did not last too long. Ended up graduating as a sociology major. Ended up getting enough Bs in those courses to graduate. IG: 05:34 So, we will return to that. We will return to your academics and other things. How about you, John? JoV: 05:43 My family, I was the first in my family to go to college. My parents, my dad was born in the Netherlands, my mother was born in Poland, and they were absolutely adamant that I needed to go to school and to college and to get ahead. And I mean, they were very insisted, both my brother and I went to school. And it was there was no question my neither my dad, went through like eighth grade. My mother completed like through the third or fourth grade, and she had lived in Poland and in war she was she had been relocated to Germany as a forced laborer. And my dad had been relocated to Germany as a forced laborer from the Netherlands, and that was where they meant. So, it was very insistent that we go to school. And again, like Jackie said about the reason I went to Harpur, means it was all the guidance counselors touted it as a very selective place. Liberal Arts, the most difficult one of the universities in the state of New York, the public ones to get into. And I like Jackie, I wanted to get away from home, and this sounded like the place to be. And one, one of my reasons for coming during the summer trimester was to play soccer. I was a soccer player, and you-you could all by the time the fall semester trimester started, it would be the season be over. So, if you want to play soccer, you had to come during the middle of the summer. But there being so few students. We were very-very slim pickings. You know, people who had any experience at all mean 400 total students. That means 200 male students. How many soccer players are there? Not a whole lot. IG: 07:31 Not a whole lot. JV: 07:32 Camps- Camp Harpur is what we called it. You know, it was- IG: 07:35 In the summertime? JV: 07:36 Oh, yeah, it was very it was as empty a campus as it is now. Well, remember, it was a much smaller campus, you know. JoV: 07:43 But there was a lot of construction going on. IG: 07:45 It was here. It was here. JV: 07:47 Yeah, already. JoV: 07:48 It was already here. But and it was the beginning of a big boom. I mean, there was construction everywhere. And I think for the next 10 years we had perpetual construction going on-on all the sites. IG: 08:01 Could I ask, just out of my own curiosity, why did your immigrant parents come to Goshen rather than New York City or some other, you know, immigrant magnet? JoV: 08:15 Well, I mean, it turns out my dad had relatives [crosstalk] pre immigrated. They had already here. So, I see, you know, he needed a place where, you know, he could have some touch with, you know, somebody, and I think, couple of his brothers and one of his sisters already here. But one of his one of his sisters immigrated to Australia, and out of a family of seven, there was only one that remained in the Netherlands after everybody wanted, you know, did all the relocating. IG: 08:47 Very interesting. JV: 08:50 If you want to do research [crosstalk] IG: 08:52 Yeah. Extremely interesting. That is extremely interesting. So, you know, so, what are some of the early impressions of the college? when you first arrived, you said that it was undergoing, you know, construction, virtual, you know, perpetual construction. There were very few students. What were, who were the students in your classes? You know, how were they all from New York City, some from upstate, you know, describe what the milieu was like. JoV: 09:27 Well, preponderance of people were from New York City, but there were definitely people from the Buffalo area, the Syracuse area, a few local people, not, not a whole lot. But, you know, I think the admissions people at the university at Harpur College made it a point to bring in people from all over the state. I do not think we had very many people from out of state, but a few foreign students. IG: 09:53 From where? JoV: 09:55 One of the people I knew came from Iran, another one from Africa somewhere. And they were on, I do not know how they had gotten in, but, you know, we-we had made friends with them, and because I knew they want a soccer team, because they were the best, most experienced soccer players. But I mean, I think you are right. I mean, half the people would you say, dear come from- ame from New York City, Long Island area, at least. JV: 10:22 That was, that was I lived on in the dormitory, and that is where, I mean, that is how I got basically introduced to New York, you know, visiting them on breaks and spending time with them, because I met them, you know, I was farther out on Long Island. We did not go into the city a lot, so, but most of our friends were, were definitely Queens and Manhattan in the Bronx and folks. And then there were some people from Long Island. As I said, there at least two-two came with me. Two classmates of mine from my high school came here. But we did know a lot of folks from-from the Buffalo area and upstate New York. IG: 11:03 Were there any, you know, I imagine that the differences were slight, the cultural differences between upstate students and New York City students. Did you notice any of these? But you were, you came from such a multi-multi home. So, you must have felt very different. JoV: 11:23 The student body was mostly middle class. Most of the students that I met were, if not first time, you know, generation college students, then you know, maybe it had brothers or sisters, but they were very much middle class. And, you know, we got along in that because we were- all had the same experiences. I did not find anybody who you know. My father was a doctor. My father has been- my father was a lawyer. My grandfather has been a lawyer. I did not experience that at all. This is all. We were all here together for first time. See what it was like. JV: 11:55 Yeah, that is pretty much. I cultural differences, not really. IG: 12:00 Not really. JV: 12:00 I mean, I think we the biggest cultural learning that took place for me was learning about more Jewish traditions and cultures. I mean, I remember making matzah brei in the dorm and, you know, just understanding Jewish traditions and cultures and foods and things like that. But other than that, I do not remember. JoV: 12:25 The other thing was the different dialects of New York. Yeah, people from Buffalo speak differently than people from Long Island, than the people from Brooklyn, than the people from Albany, New York, and the people who were, you know, in the Binghamton area. And that was my always sensitivity to, "Wow, I know where you are from. You are from Rochester, perhaps closer to Buffalo, but definitely in that neck of the woods." And- IG: 12:48 So, you have, you have a very good ear. JoV: 12:51 I tend to listen very carefully, and, you know, try to pinpoint where people's accents come from. JV: 12:59 And he tried to beat the Long Island accent out of me. [laughter] JoV: 13:07 30, 40 years. But Jackie's Long Island accent has now disappeared and is now she is a local. IG: 13:15 So, what are some ticks of Binghamton locals’ speech ticks? JV: 13:23 I know that you ask, it is kind of hard to think there is [crosstalk] IG: 13:31 I mean, it is not, it is not necessary for the interview, but if you can think of it, I am just taking this because I do not have it watch. So JV: 13:40 I cannot think of anything. IG: 13:42 You cannot think of anything. I think that there is sort of, you know, a little to a voice, but I cannot, you know, I will identify it when I hear it, but I am [crosstalk] JoV: 13:52 More nasally twang. There is a there are some colloquialisms that are definitely Binghamtonian and but, you know the one- JV: 14:03 It is a double negative that use. JoV: 14:05 So do not I. JV: 14:06 Yeah, so do not I, you know, you know, "I really like brownies." "Well, so do not I, "you know, JV: 14:13 Oh-oh, that is very interesting. JoV: 14:15 It just struck us as, you know [crosstalk] IG: 14:19 That is so interesting. JV: 14:21 The bars would serve tomato pie, Hot Pie. You know, they would advertise instead of pizza, it was called Hot Pie. Let us go to Mike's and get a hot pie. JoV: 14:30 Culinary city chicken, which is, I do not think it is, I do not know why it is called city, and I do not think it is chicken. JV: 14:37 Pork in it, I think. [crosstalk] like meat on a stick. [laughs] I do not know how else to describe it, but just, but how much, how much of some of those things were just regional, and how much was growing up? Because you got to remember, you know, when you are we are finally 18, and now you are on your own, and you are navigating things on your own. So, is it really? Is it really that much different from where I grew up, or is it just the stage of life now, where I am learning about the world? So, I always, you know- JV: 15:00 Yeah, it is what you- JV: 15:07 Yeah. IG: 15:08 You know what you are paying attention to. JV: 15:11 Exactly. IG: 15:12 So, what was, what were the academics like? Were you- are there any professors that stand out, any courses that stand out in your mind that kind of determined you to take a certain route in your career? JoV: 15:32 I would like to answer that. IG: 15:34 Yes. JoV: 15:34 Is- the fact that we are in a liberal art we I took an art course from a professor Wilson who designed JFK memorial in Downtown Binghamton, and the fact that he was instructing freshmen was always amazing to me. Here is an established artist and taking liberal arts courses from various people and who had real academic standing. And I did not, you know it was the anthropology courses, the-the economic courses, but it just the, just the broadness. I mean, I guess you know, being-being, having become, becoming well rounded in various fields, that was the most interesting thing to me. Sometimes I had to redirect myself. "Oh, you got to take these courses." And it was just I was never that interested in, you know, I was always more interested in finding more courses, different courses to take. And that was really quite intriguing. JV: 16:30 I have to admit, I was not a student. That was not JoV: 16:32 You were a student. JV: 16:34 I was. I managed to get through. I did get a degree, but classes and courses, that was not what interested me on campus. I would that was not who I was. [laughs] so- IG: 16:46 Who were you on campus? JV: 16:48 I was a member of lots of campus activities, you know, I- there was a poster, the-the-the I was a member of the student council board, the student center board. It says, presented by the student center board, yeah, and so we, they would bring, and I was on, it was on dorm governance, and just various organizations on campus that that was something that really- IG: 17:17 So, what were so, what-what did these organizations, what did the Mitchell trio? JV: 17:24 It was the folk trio--there was a concert, yeah. So, they had the- IG: 17:27 John Denver, the John Denver. JV: 17:29 Yes. IG: 17:29 Oh, wow. JoV: 17:30 Yeah. JoV: 17:30 Oh, you Chad Mitchell trio. Before-before became John Denver, he was part of a trio. IG: 17:35 Oh, I have no I had no idea. JV: 17:39 And after the concert, you know, he and his guitar went over to somebody's house in Johnson City, and he serenaded us all again, you know, IG: 17:46 How wonderful. JV: 17:48 We talked about. We brought Simon and Garfunkel to campus and paid them, like, less than $2,000 for the concert down in the gym, the first gym. JoV: 18:00 Obviously, before they got really really-really expensive. JV: 18:03 That is, that is wonderful. So-so that was your activity. It was finding those groups- JV: 18:09 Finding those groups and being involved with the people, you know, the other students who were part of that, you know, that was what really interested me, as opposed to, I got through my classes. But I that was where- IG: 18:22 So, what-what, you know, were students talking about? What did they care about during this time? JoV: 18:29 Let me, let me answer [crosstalk] a little bit. This was in the days 1965 all young men who were not in college were going to be drafted. And I can tell you, I mean, that was the number one topic, the war in Vietnam was going full tilt, and if you got kicked out of school, did not come to school, you were going to get drafted and you were going to go to Vietnam. And I can tell you that all the male students, that was their overriding concern. They may have had. They might have had career goals. They might have been pursuing a degree in something they really want. But this stood above all. I mean, this was always on your mind. So- IG: 19:07 Do you feel that it was a, an anxiety that everyone shared, all men shared? JV: 19:13 Gap year. JoV: 19:13 Gap year out of it. I mean, that was out of the question. You know, you want a gap year, you got to be drafted. So, it was definitely on everyone's mind, overriding every single day. You know, we get through and-and the war news. I mean, it just got worsened from 1965 to (19)66 to (19)67 to (19)68 I mean, the war just grew more and more intense. And, you know, the body count was really quite horrific. I graduated from Goshen High with there were 125 students. And there were, there were two people, I know who died. One of them lived on my street. And these were guys, young men, who did not go to college. They, you know, graduate high school, and within six months, they were in Vietnam, and within a year, they were dead. So, I, I felt that it was really, really tough going. JoV: 19:13 Oh, definitely. I mean, a lot of students, I among them, what do they call that? When you, when you, when you when you graduate from high school and you have a you take a year off, IG: 20:19 So, it, you know, it colored the mood. It colored the sort of the like the- JV: 20:23 Well, and then, and then, you know, we were, I am thinking the world. We were not as actively involved in protests, but that is what was starting to happen on campus. You know, that, that you were, you became very much aware of that there were, there were people around the country who were actively against the war, that were actively protesting against the war. I remember we- I think we finally did march from the campus to downtown- JoV: 20:47 1968. JV: 20:47 -1968 involved in a protest. But we were not, we did not occupy the administration building, because that is in my mind, that is not who I was protesting against. But I It was not. It was in 1970 was Kent State, was not it? So it was, we were still in the area, and you know that they, they closed the camp- they just sent in May of or rather, it was in April. So, there was still several more weeks now. Think about all that happens on a campus in April and May. In April, every single, just about every single university in this country since, said, "Go home. Just go home now." JoV: 21:33 And I remember- JV: 21:34 Go home. JoV: 21:35 And students met with the profs, and the prof said, “What kind of grade you want? Because, you know, we are shutting down. We are not doing any more final exams. We are not having any more classes. We are concluding this semester after Kent State, because we do not want the whole thing to blow up.” I mean, I mean, that was the kind of tension that Amnesty- 1965 the war was in a very low-level state. But it just grew and grew and grew and, you know, I- it was just an incredible build up and-and we knew some people who, I knew some people who either had had left school or flunked out, and then, you know, we had heard, oh, they were, you know, they were in the army, or a few of them went to Canada, you know there, and I have never seen some of those people again. IG: 22:26 So, but the campus did have some protests? JoV: 22:31 Oh yeah. IG: 22:32 But-but did you go on marches on Washington, or? JV: 22:39 No, it was just here. Yeah-yeah. I am sure there were students who there were busses and things to Washington. We just did not do that. JoV: 22:46 I mean, I would not call Bingham- Harpur College an activist. JV: 22:49 Yeah, we were not Columbia. JoV: 22:51 I mean, there were, there were people who were active, but not, not like Berkeley or Columbia. IG: 22:57 Yeah, um, so, you know, so when did you meet? When did you when did you meet? When were you together? JV: 23:13 John's roommate, he lived off campus, and my roommate were dating, and several of us would John-John had a car that was, and we would go out. And remember, the drinking age was 18 at the time, and so we would go out and have beers and hot pies and speedies and whatever. IG: 23:32 And this is when, what- JV: 23:33 -in the neighborhood bars, 19- JoV: 23:34 1967, 1968. JV: 23:35 (19)68 so we were just part of a group of people who palled around and then eventually started dating. IG: 23:44 Right. So, you knew each other since then? JV: 23:48 Yeah, but mainly his-his roommate and my roommate were dating, and so I got to know him that way. IG: 23:56 So, you know, I am thinking about the war, and you said that Harpur was not an activist school, per se, and yet, there was a lot of activity on campus that was sort of, you know, politicized. People were politicized here. So, were you part of any kind of, I do not know, paper or radio? JV: 24:19 No, I just was not, I was not that. I was more. I mean, even now, you know, we are good citizens and vote and stuff, but I have not been too much on Washington with my pink hat or anything, you know. I mean, I am support liberal ideas and contribute money and things like that, but not I am just done an activist kind of person. IG: 24:42 What were, what was the significance of, you know, the folk musicians, like the Mitchell Trio? JV: 24:49 They were fun. I mean, I remember what- who was that it became the kosher kitchen. But remember, there was a little coffee house, one of that little way the Fleishman Center is now, and the student, you. Union. And, you know, there people would bring guitars and play folk music, and then the Bill Barker or Bob Barker, what is his name? IG: 25:08 You know, was not it a change in sort of, you know, youth culture, because from-from all of the you know, folk musicians, they were, you know, Peter, Paul and Mary, for example, yeah, when I know Dylan, they all had, you know, a message of social change- JV: 25:25 Right. IG: 25:25 -political change- JV: 25:26 Right-right, yeah, definitely. IG: 25:27 Were you kind of alive to that, to that aspect of them? JV: 25:32 Yeah. JoV: 25:34 I mean, Bob Dylan, you know, was played in dorms from 1965 I mean, just repeatedly, everyone, almost everyone, was involved with Dylan. I mean, it was really the first off campus event I went to in New York, was to see a Dylan concert. I mean, I had seen a bunch on, you know, other concerts on campus, but where I really went out of my way to see Bob Dylan. And- IG: 26:01 Where did you see him? Do you remember? JoV: 26:05 I saw him--I think it was Carnegie Hall. IG: 26:07 Oh. JoV: 26:07 And it was one of his first electric concerts, and he sort of, he did some acoustic guitar the first half, and then he brought on his electric organ and-and he got booed [crosstalk] yes. And, you know, because they were, there were some purists in the audience. And then, you know, I think he eventually won them over, or at least the majority of the audience was won over. But Dylan, to me, is, I mean, I have, you know, as a friend of mine says, "John, have you, you know, bought all his vinyls?" I said, "I try," so very, you know, I think that whole theme of anti-war from him. I mean, I know there were others, other musicians, but I not, not, not as much as him. JV: 26:36 Yeah, no. And I mean, the whole counterculture kind of attitude, you know, do not trust anyone under over 30. And you know, knowing that, that you have some, you ae going to have some responsibility for moving you know that, that I definitely felt that I was, was part of me, but-but I just was not, you know, I was not a, an activist kind of person. [crosstalk] IG: 27:26 Your-your future life to be sort of along the same path as your family, as your mother and father. Did you think that you would get married and then, you know, have children and retire, or did you, did you envision a different future for yourself? JoV: 27:49 I could just speak for myself that I did not my-my concern was- what was going to happen after the four years when my deferment is up. I really was incapable of thinking much beyond that. Is there life after, after schools? Do not know. You know, am I going to live in the United States or not? Do not know. Am I going to be alive? I do not know it was, it was that overwhelming. I, if I may, I will tell you one story, when, when did the draft started to not to end, but they had a lottery. I do not know if you remember that. And every, every young man in the country was now, because there was so such a differential in various areas. I mean, some people were drafted, some people were not. So, they have a lottery, so everybody was going to get a number. And then every so we were listening to the Harpur radio station. Jackie and I were driving in the car, and they were reading the numbers JV: 28:43 Based on your birthday. JoV: 28:44 So, if they read this is number one, April 27 that means that you were going to be the first one called. And if you get a high number, you were probably not going to be called. So, we were trying to listen for my birthday. It was 365,366 you know; dates they have to go through. So, we finally get the campus and we, you know, what number did you get? What I mean, that was the, you know, that was it. And after that, I mean, I got a relatively high number, and I that was the first time. I do not know when that happened. It was early 1970 late 1969 I finally could think of, oh, yeah, now, you know- JV: 29:15 But you had already got, you had gone for a physical just before that. JoV: 29:18 Oh yeah. I mean, I mean- JV: 29:18 John, John extended, you know I mean the draft, a full-time student was four classes. But what I mean, most students were taking 16 credits, four classes, but you could still be considered full time if you were taking three for the and if you were full time, you were going to get this exemption. So, John, sort of like, spread things out. You took a long time. I graduated in December of (19)69 but you did not graduate. Well, you that Kent State erupted, you know., JoV: 29:51 But three courses, I mean, was no reason for me to take four courses. We might. Am I going to finish earlier? And so finally, you know, I had, I. And run out the string. And then the Selective Service in Goshen and said, you know, your time is up. You have used your four years since you matriculated at Harpur. And so, they sent me for a physical in Syracuse. And then this lottery, I said, “But the lottery, you are still going for a physical, okay?” JV: 30:18 But it was like, within days the lottery came about, and he did never get drafted. IG: 30:23 People do not appreciate what a sense of tension, of anxiety- JV: 30:30 Control. It was a controlled {crosstalk] IG: 30:32 Control over a huge, you know, swath of young people, psychologically. What that meant for them later on, you know, or during that time. JoV: 30:45 I took a bus from the Binghamton Federal Building to Syracuse and had a physical, and then got into some disagreement with some of the military people, not just, you know, and they wanted me to stay overnight, to do something else. And I said "No," and they said, "You are not getting back on the bus." I said, "That is all right." So, I called Jackie, and she had to drive up to Syracuse and pick me up. And I was, I was outraged. I mean, I was, I was fuming. I was just- JV: 31:13 I am afraid now that the police are going to come and guard him away because arrest him. Are we going to Canada now? JoV: 31:21 That was the, you know, I do, but luckily, you know, the everything was held in abeyance until this lottery. And then, I mean, that was the beginning of a new, new page. Okay, now, what am I going to do? IG: 31:35 So, what did you do? JoV: 31:35 Well, Jackie had started teaching in in Johnson City. So, I said, "Well, I might as well try that too." And, you know, I really had no plans. I had no idea, you know, we live here and, well, at least for the time being. You know, this is easy. I cannot I cannot fathom moving and starting, oh, you know, just, let us settle down and for at least a couple of years. And a couple of years turned into next 40 years. JV: 32:01 Your career. Yeah, yeah. I had sworn all along I was never going to teach, but I went to the New York State Employment Agency looking for a job after I graduated, and they sent me to a Catholic school who needed a fourth-grade teacher, and they hired me. And that is, you know, I am now teaching in the department of teaching, learning, educational leadership. So, you know, who knew I-I had no idea. IG: 32:27 Fell into that career both you. JV: 32:29 never in the, you know, in 1965 Did I imagine I myself being a teacher. IG: 32:35 So, so tell me a little bit about your career trajectories, you know. So, you-you kind of fell into the teaching profession, and what happened, you know? Give us an overview. JV: 32:48 I taught in the Catholic schools. I just thought I figured out I like teaching and I wanted to continue. So, I worked to get my teaching credentials from New York State and found a job. I was hired by the Union Endicott school district as a reading teacher because I had taken a number of reading courses as I was working toward my credential, and taught reading there for 12 years. And then I became I-I had, in New York State, you need a master's degree. So, I had managed to get a master's degree in reading at the University of Scranton, and talked to my principal at the time, and I said, "Okay, so now what?" And he said, he says "We should think about administration." So, I continued taking courses, became the principal of the of an elementary school, and then director of elementary education and then Assistant Superintendent when I retired, and I am a lecturer here. I am not on a tenure track that I was an adjunct and of the five faculty members one year, two of them left to take other positions, and they really were kind of desperate. They said, well, here, you know, become a full-time person, and that was 13 years ago. So, I have been doing that. I have been here ever since. So, what do you do here? I teach courses in the literacy program. We prepare young men and women to be teachers, to get their credential, and then when another faculty member left who was in charge of the Educational Administration program. They asked me to be that program coordinator. So now I am working in the program. I am coordinating the program that prepares men and women to be principals and supervisors and that sort of thing in schools. They picked me because I-I had one of those jobs, so they figured, I must know what I am doing. IG: 34:43 That is very interesting. Do you, do you have, do you offer a doctoral program in the Education Department? JV: 34:49 Yeah, we do, but in curriculum and instruction, it was not a leadership program, but it was just, it was, it was a, it was an EDD. IG: 34:58 So, you do not offer an EDD? In leadership? No, we do not know. JV: 35:02 Although our- the courses that we offer are 600 are 600 level courses in can be the ED leadership courses can be used as electives and the doctor courses, but it is not any, any DD in leadership. IG: 35:18 I see, I see. I am just curious. JV: 35:21 Okay. IG: 35:24 So, you know this is, what about your family life? Did you have- JV: 35:32 One son. IG: 35:32 Yeah, you have one son. JV: 35:34 Yep, Andy, yep. He is 38 now. [laughs] IG: 35:42 And is he- is he in the vicinity? JV: 35:45 He is, he is living in Athens Georgia currently, because he is married to a woman who is in a doctoral program there. So, she has, she will be, they will be leaving in May for her internship, and we do not know where they are going to be. JV: 36:04 [laughs] I am not even sure he is coming home for Thanksgiving. IG: 36:04 That is, that is the way of grown children, and you do not know where they are going inaudible] IG: 36:04 You might have to go there. JV: 36:10 No, we were not going there, but he might. He said, "Yeah-yeah, we are coming, but we have-" IG: 36:20 So, I am curious also, what you know the women's movement happened in the early (19)70s. It was you were off campus by then. But did you feel signs that you know, attitudes toward women and expectations of women were shifting or not? JV: 36:51 Of course, they were, yeah. They were definitely shifting. I mean, even my sights were, you know, were higher, you know, that, that I could do it, but, but were there still obstacles, you know? Yeah, not everything was apparent that we could do. I still remember one of the administrators in the school district calling us all girls, you know. And I finally had enough courage to request politely that please stop calling us girls. “You know, we are not girls.” He meant it; you know. I mean, he was very polite, caring man. He just needed to be informed that we were not finding it grating, right to be to refer to as girls. But, yeah, I mean, I we women- we very concerned about women getting to becoming, getting into elected office and supporting women who were in elected office. Look, looking up to those people. I mean, I still remember Geraldine Ferraro being nominated as about for a vice president, you know, all those things were eye opening and but yet, IG: 38:08 Did you, did you have a supportive husband? JV: 38:12 Absolutely. IG: 38:12 Yes, supportive of your wife's career. JoV: 38:16 I when Jackie got her master's in Scranton. Scranton is an hour's drive, I mean, and going through the winter, it was, it was difficult. And I, you know, she went with somebody. And finally, she says, “You know, there is got to be better way, quicker way” and she says, “You know, Scranton is a Catholic University. If I go there in the summer, I can live with the nuns and spend four days a week there. Get all my work done. Come on weekend.” I said, “God bless you. Go.” And it turned out to be a real boon for both of us. I mean, it saved her a lot of driving time, and she had very little work, because she says nuns are not that [crosstalk] JV: 38:53 There was nothing else to do. [crosstalk] late, later, late evening, because people were teaching, or working or something. So, I would have, like all day to do my coursework, and then I would come home after my last class on Thursday and not have to be back until my class on Monday. And I did not, except for the toward the end, when the papers were due, when you had to type them on your old electric type writer, remember. IG: 39:19 Yes. JoV: 39:20 You had an electric one? IG: 39:22 Yeah, I remember [crosstalk] JV: 39:24 With carbon paper and erasable paper. Remember when they finally invented erasable paper. I do not know if you remember that. IG: 39:32 I do not remember the erasable- JV: 39:34 White out. IG: 39:35 White out. Certainly, white out. erasable paper? JV: 39:38 They had it. They had a when they when they invented erasable bond, you know, then you could actually get rid of the type without making crosstalk] IG: 39:47 That is right. Now, I do remember I see it. It was, it was a very long time ago. JV: 39:51 Yeah, if you had an expensive IBM, then it had that white out, or actually- IG: 39:55 Right-right-right. So-so you were a supportive husband. Jackie was telling me a little bit about giving her giving me an outline of her career trajectory. Could you tell us what your career was like? JV: 40:17 John was a very supportive husband. He basically raised our son. He was, yeah, he was the- he was done lots and lots of different kinds of things, but I was the career person. I was the one who did that. And he was, he was the, he was the one I we have a colleague who was lamenting the fact that she had a class and could not go to her son's open house. And I said I never saw my son off to school on the first day, you know, that big event where you take pictures and stuff never happened. Because I was always meeting 400 other kids somewhere. Yeah. So, when you talk about changing roles of women, and we were, we were, we were one of the first families where, you know, I was the main career person, and John was the person who was raising, put, keeping the family together and raising the family, you know, taking all care of all the right stuff that needed to be care of. IG: 41:16 So, you know, now it is nor normative. JV: 41:19 Yeah. IG: 41:19 But then, did you experience any criticism? Or, you know, nothing from- JV: 41:26 Not really. IG: 41:27 No nothing. Did you what did you feel, John? JoV: 41:30 I mean, I would meet when-when my son was smaller, I, you know, would take him grocery shopping. And I would always meet other little children who were there with their mothers, and lot of them were teachers whom I knew, and they kind of look at my son was like, well, you know, Dad, it is okay, yeah. So it was, it was different. I mean, not like, you know, today, obviously, but there was some pressure. But as I said, I always worried about more about my son than about myself and he, you know, kids just seem to, you know, no problem. So. IG: 42:07 So how did you keep yourself, you know, you took care of your family, of your son, your wife, you know what-how did you did you pursue your intellectual interests that you developed in college. How did you do that? JV: 42:27 John is the most voracious reader you have ever met in your whole entire life. We subscribe to at least three newspapers. JoV: 42:36 That would be real, physical newspapers, the kind you throw into the fireplace and they-they ignite. JV: 42:39 Put in the bottom of the bird case. IG: 42:42 So, what do you read? What-what papers do you read? JoV: 42:46 We said, The Wall Street Journal comes every day, the times comes on Sunday, and the local paper comes on Sunday. So, you know, our newspaper carrier has she-she deserves a lot of rewards, because on Sundays, you know, the local paper, at the times, there is a, you know, sometimes the five or six pounds with papers come, so. IG: 43:07 It is nice. It is nice to read the-the physical paper. I mean, I read everything online these days. JoV: 43:15 I you know, I mean, I know Jackie reads a lot of it online. I still have some difficulty. I mean, I when you get a paper subscription, you can read it online. And a lot of times I will start, I just cannot. IG: 43:26 Yeah, it is more pleasurable. JoV: 43:28 Yeah. And so, I mean, the New York Times is a habit from college doing crossword together. And, I mean, it is 40 years of, you know, got to have that- JV: 43:42 50,50. JoV: 43:42 I am sorry, 50 years. Got to have that New York Times fix. IG: 43:45 Yeah. Do you feel that you know the-the answer is obvious to me, but do you feel that you know Harpur College played a key role in kind of opening you up intellectually- JoV: 44:01 For me yes, definitely. I mean, I, you know, you take the high school courses. You do well, but it is like the broadening, the things that you find out and, you know, there is another whole world out there. I remember Jackie and I took a theater course, which was really, you know, incredible, you know, it is like, wow, this is what it is all about. I took astronomy and geology. I mean, a lot of the Harpur students were biology students and chemistry students. And I said, “Well, I really want to take these other ones” and just, you know, it is like, wow, there is, there are a lot of different things. So today I hear my son, who went to RPI, I mean, almost all his courses were in computer science. And I am thinking a lot of people are linear. You know, be a liberal arts student. There is, there is really nothing wrong with it that makes a human being. IG: 44:52 I think I-I agree. I agree. And I also think that the theater department here is really top Notch. Did you stay in touch with the campus? Did you continue going, you know, did you go to concerts, to theater productions here together? JV: 45:11 We kick ourselves that we do not go to more, yeah, but we definitely stay, you know, involved. We have never left. It has, it has been part of our lives. We live, you know, five miles and way in Endicott, and it has just always been, you know, we have been here forever. JoV: 45:28 We have been part of the Alumni Association since we graduated down now, if Jackie spoke, she was, she spent maybe a year and a half as the director of- JV: 45:36 Yeah, actually worked. I was, I was president of the Alumni Association. IG: 45:40 Oh, wow. JV: 45:41 And then while I was president, the gentleman who was employed by us as the director, got into some kind of-he left. And so, I took over. I took a leave of absence from my teaching and took over as the-the interim director, while they were doing a search. IG: 46:05 When was that? JV: 46:06 Andy was just born, so it was (19)80- JoV: 46:09 (19)82 or (19)83. JV: 46:10 No, was not he still nursing, I think? Yep, 80- was it (19)81, (19)82? IG: 46:15 Yeah, but interesting. JoV: 46:17 For a year? JV: 46:19 Nine months. It was from January to September. I went back to teaching in September. So, um. JoV: 46:26 So, our connection to the university has been- IG: 46:29 It is very deep. Did you- do you think that your-your grounding in liberal arts informed sort of you know your son's well, your son chose computer science. I do not know what he does, but-but do you think that that it was part of his upbringing that you encouraged him to read- JV: 46:51 He had a dual degree in in social sciences, you know, he- JoV: 46:55 Psychology. JV: 46:56 -psychology, he, you know he. I think he likes to think of himself as a renaissance man. Yeah, you know he- JoV: 47:02 But unfortunately, he has never had a job outside [crosstalk] JV: 47:06 Yeah, he earns his money one way. But yeah, he is an avid reader. He, which pleases me no end as a reading teacher. I remember. I mean, one of the things that just, I just loved, was he has a very-very close friend. And even in as they left high school and during college, his they would give birthday gifts or Christmas gifts to one another. And they were books, you know, they were not CDs and games. They were books. They would share books. And I am thinking, oh my, we did something, right? You know, like- JoV: 47:40 The connection to Harpur. I just should add my son's middle name is Harpur. IG: 47:45 Oh, my goodness. JoV: 47:46 So, we-we had a tough time agreeing on a first name, and finally we decided, both of us, and it was no objection at all. You know, Andrew Harpur Visser. IG: 47:46 Oh, wow. IG: 47:53 That is, that is, that is a huge endorsement of your experience. You know, I do not know there is a better word for it. You know, your love- JoV: 47:53 So. JoV: 48:11 Exactly. IG: 48:13 -for this, for this experience. I am just wondering. You know, this is kind of off of tangent a little bit. But what is illiteracy- you know, what is the illiteracy rate here in Broome County? And do you teach children, young people or adults or everyone? JV: 48:38 I do not teach the children. I teach the teachers. IG: 48:41 You teach the teachers, right. JV: 48:43 What is the illiteracy rate? It is, it is, well, if you think, if you think about the big test that has to be taken in New York State, and you have to pass it, probably, probably about 30 percent of the students are not passing the test. IG: 48:59 Wow. JV: 49:00 Yeah, depending on which grade level or, you know, which test you are in, what you are looking for, but that is the test, you know, there is you could not do well on a test, but still, but still be able to function real well. So right now, what is your definition of illiteracy? You know, it is, it is kind of hard to tell I wish one of the things that we all worry about as teachers is not necessarily students’ inability to read. It is students’ reluctance to read. You know, the motivation social being on social media all the time and not finding joy and rewards of books. You know, as a librarian, you probably worry about as well. IG: 49:46 Yeah, and we have programs, we have literacy both for, I think it is, it is, it is not literacy for reading, but it is literacy in research. In understanding sources in, you know, separating fake news from real news. In technology literacy, so different kinds of literacy that librarians increasingly teach, you know, and that we have, but I will tell you about those programs later. So, you know, I am thinking, you know, we are kind of wrapping up, and I would like to ask you, what are some of the important lessons that you learned from this time in your life at Harpur College? JoV: 50:40 Really, very difficult to- JV: 50:44 We grew up. I do not know if it is a lesson, but we just, you know, I remember my 20th birthday thinking, “Oh, my God, I am an adult now. I am 20. It is, it is different. You know, what am I going to do? Where am I going? What is going on with my life?” But by the time we muddled through, you know, graduation and those first years, okay, I can do this. I can, I can. I am capable. I can. I think, I think one of the things I told you I was not a great student, but I was involved in lots of organizations that taught me an awful lot, you know, that- IG: 51:26 Gave you confidence. IG: 51:27 It is a special ability, getting people to do what needs to be done, and having them enjoy what they are doing. JV: 51:27 Right. JV: 51:27 Gave me confidence, you know, some leadership ability, organizational things, the things you know, my maybe, maybe not my teaching career, but my administrative career. And I was a school administrator for more years than I was a teacher actually. I traced back to-to being on the student center board and figuring out that, you know, we need a contract for the, you know, for the Mitchell Trio guys. And not only do you just sign the contract, but then somebody has to pick them up at the airport, and what are you going to do, you know, all that kind of marshaling people. I was not the leader of it, but understanding, getting to see people do those things, you know, then I could become president of the Alumni Association. JoV: 51:50 I mean, for me, I think it was in a chaotic time that the university held was stability. It kept things. Was something for me to lean on whenever things got really out of kilter, and this was, this is where I knew I could go back to and-and, you know, retain some sanity or in a crazy world. And, you know, it was, it was not necessarily teaching me something. I mean, we have talked about this previously, but, you know, the moment that, like, we could not think beyond I could not think beyond it. And so, you know, that forced me to concentrate on the university as a place where, you know, it was stable. It was a place where I could always rely on and, you know, whatever, whatever came, whatever was to happen in the future. IG: 53:12 It was, it was your escape. It was your sort of, you know, zone. No? JoV: 53:20 It was away from the world [crosstalk] IG: 53:25 The pressures of the David. JoV: 53:29 I mean, we were, when we were here, we were fully involved from dawn till dusk. We were there was classes, athletics, playing cards, meeting with friends. I mean, this university was our life really was and, and I remember the first after the first summer I when I decided to work in the Binghamton area during a break, my parents said, "Well, you are sure you are going to be able to handle it up there, you know, because you, you know you are not going to be home,” Yeah. This is, this is, you know, I felt feel bad. IG: 54:05 It became home. JoV: 54:06 Yeah, exactly. JV: 54:07 It became home for both of us, yeah, where we where I grew up, you know, is, you know, it-it was not home very, very quickly. You know, I did not want to go back to Long Island, you know, not that, not that anything bad happened there, but this was where, this is, this was where I grew up. Yeah, I know I became independent and-and we ended up staying in this area. You know, more from inertia than you know certain circumstance than any you know your major decision that said, “You know, we are going to live in in the Binghamton area.” IG: 54:47 You are drawn to it. JV: 54:49 Yeah. And now, I mean, we, I could not think of any place else I would want to leave. We, as we get older, and our son is moving someplace away, you know, we are always thinking, oh, well, you know, might we really relocate. But nothing is calling us nobody is- we are not sitting here saying, oh, gee, you know we need to go to North Carolina, or we need to go to Florida, or we need to move to Arizona or something like that. We just do not think that. And so, the university is just part of that circle. It is a big, important part of the circle in which we live. IG: 55:18 That is very nice. And, you know, one last question I like to ask. What you know, what advice do you have for a student listening to this interview about, you know, planning their lives and-and about the college experience, and sort of, you know, looking to the future and what, what kind of, you know, what are some important qualities for them to own or develop in their future lives, or answer it any way that you like, that you feel, that you have found. JV: 56:13 I do not know if I this Well, I am now in a position where I am working with students who want to become teachers and administer and school administrators, and it has a real career path to for them, I really feel bad for them that they do not have the opportunity to have the same kind of liberal arts opportunities that we had, but I worry about the issue of student debt. You know, I really, really am concerned. I mean, when people I we had this tiny little they have to take multiple tests and become teachers certified as teacher, and we had these vouchers so that they would not have to pay for these for these tests. And so, we asked students to say, “Why do you deserve this test?” And I just remember one young woman talked about her, you know, $50,000 worth of student debt, and when she when she graduates, she is going to get a job as a teacher, earning $40,000 and, you know, like, what does that mean? We had the luxury. I had a little bit of student debt when I when I graduated, but, but we had the luxury of having our, you know, free tuition, and all you had to do is pay for room and board. And we found an old bill one day, and it was like $400 you know, a semester like- so-so while I want them all to be able to have that, I do not know what I want to be. I am just going to take all the courses I possibly can and learn about the world and life and whatever can you really do you really want to take on all that debt as an art history major and start working in Applebee's, you know, like that is what I worry about right now. So, do I have advice? I do not know what I do. JoV: 58:10 But then, you know, people go on the other track, and they say they are so directed, they are so mercenary. I am going to take these courses. It is going to become this pays the most, and this will pay for my entire education. And I sometimes feel they have lost the thrust of why they come here in the first place, if your if your curriculum only includes, you know, those three or four categories that you need, or you think you need for your job, because it is going to look great. Well, that is wonderful for your job, but you know, as a human being, you may fall short, but you know, if you want that human experience education, that is a big bill to pay, and obviously you have to balance the two, and I would not want to be in a position to make those decisions. It is just too catastrophic, like Jackie said, you come out of here with, you know, way too much debt that will burn you and taint your whole life thereafter. So, I am not sure what I would advise I would give them, but to think, you know deep and long about where do you want to go, and it is a hard decision to make, but people today have the luxury of time. They do not. They have a gap year. They have two gap years, you know, start at the local community college. The transfer in is, you know, be a little more mature. I mean, we, we did not have that opportunity. I did not have that opportunity, you know, I was 18. You are going to college, end of story, you know. Well, maybe I was not quite ready, I think, well, maybe I was not and I should have taken some time. JV: 59:47 Yeah, fine, I guess and part of my profession says that we are all lifelong learners, so just realize that college is not the end that you should be. You know, you should continue to whatever your career choice is, understand that you are not done. IG: 1:00:06 That is that is very good advice. I agree wholeheartedly. Any concluding remarks, JV: 1:00:13 No, I would be interesting to read some of the other comments. JoV: 1:00:16 I think you have gotten all you can out of these two old bodies. [laughter] IG: 1:00:21 Thank you. It is very interesting and very enjoyable. Thank you. JV: 1:00:26 You are welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jackie and John Visser Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Visser, Jackie ; Visser, John ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Jackie and John Visser.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-11-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:28 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4ad3dade9e07c21989df7f163995debd.mp3 8e699e5a681a4d200333ead51d8b6e7c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2017-12-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Janice L. Strauss Year of Graduation 1968 Biographical Text Janice is a Niagara Falls native. She worked as a Spanish teacher in Broome County. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Janice Strauss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 14 December 2017 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:03 You will keep track of time? Okay. So-so please tell me your name, your birth date- Third speaker: 00:05 Yeah. JS: 00:13 Okay. IG: 00:14 -and where, and where we are. JS: 00:16 I am Janice Strauss, and my birth date was December 17, 1946 and we were in my home in Endicott, on Bean Hill Road. IG: 00:29 So, could you tell me where you grew up? JS: 00:34 Well, I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but only lived there for five years, and my parents moved to Niagara Falls, New York, and that is where I grew up, in an infamous area now called Love Canal, which we did not know about at the time. [laughs] IG: 00:49 So-so could- when did you come to Harpur College? JS: 00:55 I came to Harpur College in 1968, no 1964-1964 I graduated in 1968. Came in the summer of 1964 because Harpur College was still on trimester. And so, they had three semesters a year, one the first one started in July of 1964. IG: 01:20 So, what- do you have any memories, sort of, you know, brief snapshots of what the campus looked like when you first arrived, or, you know, from-from the time that you were there? JS: 01:30 Well, it was certainly much smaller than it is now. It was all red brick. The buildings were all red brick. There were none of these other designs. Um, and it was in perpetual- it was under a state of perpetual construction. There was always an area that was being added, um modified. I remember them planting trees one summer and pulling them out the next year because they were going to put a building right where they had just planted the trees. So, it is constant-constantly changing. IG: 02:07 Great planning. JS: 02:08 Yeah, we wondered [inaudible] wise guy, college kids, every once in a while, wondered about that. [laughs] IG: 02:15 So um, what were um- what was- tell me what were some of the significant events during the time that you were there that you remember that stand out? Um, historical events? JS: 02:31 Oh, historical events. Well, the entire time there was overshadowed by the Vietnam War, protests. People constantly leaving campus to go on busses to Washington, DC, running around, borrowing things from other people, everything from handkerchiefs in case they had to be prepared for tear gas to-- we were all rummaging through things to find things to send them off. As far as campus itself, we had a visit from Governor Rockefeller, Nelson Rockefeller at the time, because he had a hand in expanding campuses all over the state. And sometimes they called it Rockefeller's rock pile or mud pile, because with all that construction and building, something was always torn up in a mess, and when it rained, it would be muddy and-and I remember that a lot--people being concerned about that. Other significant historical events, the one that just hangs over my head is Vietnam. IG: 02:35 And how did you feel about the Vietnam War? JS: 02:38 I thought it was a dumb idea. Then I know that I know more, I think it was an even dumber idea. [laughs] I was not- I was still a little green. I just knew that we were sending a lot of people over there to kill other people, and the domino theory was-was right up front and center at the time. Our government was constantly telling us that if Vietnam fell to communism, then the whole rest of Southeast Asia would become communists, and we had to be worried and concerned about that. But even then, it was clear that it was a guerilla type war that our government did not even understand, and yet, standing back and looking in, you could see what was happening and-and the- the um- and it made for-for so many more deaths, because we did not seem to understand the strategy. We were fighting two different wars, and it meant that more people were being killed on our side, and more people were being killed on their side as they dumped Agent Orange. And I even remember us protesting against the Dow Chemical corporation because they were producing Agent Orange- IG: 04:50 During your time on campus? JS: 04:52 Yes-yes. So that was the biggest thing by far. IG: 04:56 Do you think that you became politicized on campus? Was, or did it stem from your upbringing? JS: 05:06 More so on campus-- just before I went to Harpur College, I had been an exchange student to Ecuador, and that opened my eyes. That was, that was the beginning, because then I saw what was happening to USAID money. Money was not going to the common person. I learned a different way to think-- everything from as simple as a space you know how we are sitting right now, we were fairly comfortable not in Ecuador, if you were friendly, you have to be here different. And because of how I was raised, I take a step backward, and they would take a step forward, and pretty soon I would be against the wall every day. [laughs] Things that you never thought about at all. I was very green when I went to Ecuador, and that started me thinking more along political and different lines. Kind of opened my eyes that there were there were different things out there that I never knew about. IG: 06:01 So, you spoke Spanish before you went to Ecuador. JS: 06:07 No-no, I had studied three years of German, [laughs] a year of Latin, a year of Latin, and three years of German. And yeah, I learned it quick, quickly, very quickly, um, yeah. So- IG: 06:19 Obviously, a talent for languages. JS: 06:22 Yeah, so when I came- eventually became a Spanish teacher. IG: 06:27 What? What did your- what was your home life like? What did your parents do? JS: 06:33 My dad was a factory worker. He worked for DuPont. It was a terrible job. I did not totally realize it and appreciate it at the time. At that time, though, they paid laborers decently so they could earn a living-- we had a small house. We owned our own home. I was the oldest of five kids, and my mom, for most of my childhood was a homemaker. It was only when they started cutting back at DuPont, and my father got a lesser job, but my mother went back. She already had her college degree, and she went back into teaching. And so, when I was in high school, my mother went back to work but I was the oldest. The youngest was only in kindergarten at the time, but- so I was- as the oldest child, I often took care of my younger siblings, but not until I was in high school. I mean, I led a pretty sheltered life, quiet, lower middle-class neighborhood, with my dad working his tail off, I think, which eventually killed him. He died when he was only 62 and by then, his hair roots had started to turn green from all the chemicals and he made, he made sodium for DuPont, and they did something called tickle the cells, which meant that they stirred up big, giant furnaces, and the sodium would pop up at them. And you would see them hanging out as you drive by the factories, you would see them hanging out the windows trying to breathe better. And I did not appreciate when he brought- he wore long underwear every day to protect himself from the burns. And when he came home each night, you could ring the sweat out there was that much. I mean, that is so you can imagine how hot it had to have been inside and all that kind of stuff. And as a kid, I do not- look back and look back at it. As an adult, I can appreciate so much more what he did and what he went through than I did as-as-as a kid, you know, but there were a lot of those in Niagara Falls. IG: 08:35 It was a family that valued education. JS: 08:38 Very much so. Yeah-yeah. IG: 08:42 Because you went on to college and became a Spanish teacher. And your siblings? JS: 08:46 They all went to college-- all of them. I have a brother who has just retired as a- was a registered nurse. I have a brother who became an engineer. Lives in Boston. He worked for the EPA up until this year. I have a sister who was a systems analyst who has retired and now lives here. She lived in New York City her whole adult life, and my youngest sister got a degree in accounting and did the books and things for a car company. So yeah. IG: 09:19 So, returning a little bit to campus. What was residential life like? Who were your friends? You know how did you spend time outside of class? JS: 09:35 Well, we made lifelong friends. IG: 09:36 Yes. JS: 09:37 I pulled this out in case you wanted to see. I did not know how this works, so I did not know what you wanted to see or do. [crosstalk] Oh, whatever works for you. But um, we have, we still have at least a dozen friends or more from-from those days-- that people we met on campus. Um, at the time, and I think it still is-- Harpur College was a geek school, and anytime you were not studying, you knew somebody else was studying and screwing up that bell shaped curve that you had to get over that hump [laughs] it was going to be- your grades were not going to be so good. And so, there was a lot of pressure, and we released pressure in good ways, fun ways, silly ways. I am not even sure they are acceptable today, the guys had, well, we had a curfew. IG: 10:09 Yes. JS: 10:10 The women had a curfew, which was- we were on campus this fall, the ladies were shocked. They said you had a curfew, because my wise guy husband had said to them, oh, we used to lock up the women. And they laughed. And when I was going like this with my arms folded, they looked at me and looked back at him and said, “You are not kidding.” And he said, “No,” he was not kidding. We had a curfew at 11 o'clock, and then the guys went out. When they came back, they would do things like have panty rays. You familiar with those? Oh my gosh, they the guys would come back, they would maybe been to town for a couple drinks or something, and so they were having fun, and they knew all the women were locked up in the dorms, and they come under our windows, and yeah, "We want panties. We want bras" and-and girls would throw them out. And-and I thought it was so dumb and silly. I went down to the basement one time with my roommate, and this is how we bonded and did so many things together. You asked, you know what? What it was like? We went into the lost and found in the laundry room, found some old bras, got some name tags. A lot of these young men had been in summer camps, and they had their names sewn in all their clothes. So, we took some of those labels out of their clothes and sewed them onto the bras and shot them out the window. So, the bra had a guy's name a label on it. And it was really funny, because the next day, some guy would come up to another guy and say, I found your bra last night. [laughs] So we did goofy, silly things like that that were just, you know, let off steam, but did not take too much time. [laughs]So that is kind of stuff we did. IG: 12:10 So, you know, how did you feel about curfews at the time? JS: 12:15 Even at the time, I found it annoying. You found annoying, but you just sort of accepted it, like we did not have any demonstrations about it, or anything like that, but I remember being especially annoyed with him one time. I still married him anyway. Because, because my roommate had been kept out late by her boyfriend. She had been saying to him, "I have to get back for curfew." IG: 12:35 Right. JS: 12:36 And um, he brought her back late, and at 11 o'clock they locked that door, man-- you could not get in. So, you had to ring the buzzer, and the house mother would come to the door. The head resident would come open the door, write you up that you would come late, and you got sent before the judicial review board for your punishment. So, he was on the judicial review board, all right, so he knew me, and he knew that I had in my closet, in my room, things for making cookies. So, he used to everyone, so I will make cookies in that little kitchenette in the basement. So, he sentenced her to make chocolate chip cookies for the entire dorm. And they all thought it was really funny we were- so I helped her. We were down there steaming the whole time while we made these chocolate chip cookies for the whole dorm. [laughs] In a sense, the punishment was silly, goofy, but we were still annoyed. [laughs] IG: 13:32 Right. And apparently that a peer of yours made- JS: 13:36 Right. [laughs] IG: 13:37 -made the judgment- JS: 13:38 Yeah-yeah. IG: 13:41 What were some of the expectations for you, for, maybe for-for you when you went to college, before going to college? So did you think of having career-- what was nor- the norm for women at the time, or maybe you were outside of the norm-- because of your Ecuador experience. JS: 14:00 And, yeah, in my group, and in-in, you know, this lower middle-income kind of thing, not everybody went to college. A lot of them went off and started working right away. But I remember my father, who got drafted out of college and never finished college. I think that is one reason he ended up as a laborer, telling me how proud he was that I was the first person on his side of the family to ever graduate from college, and he was very excited that I was going to college. And so, what expectations were just that I would do well. I had really good grades in high school. I did not have really good grades at Harpur. I had, I struggled to get over that hump on the bell-shaped curve. I remember one time getting 91 points out of 100 and it was a C plus. And I was so upset, I went to see the professor, and I handed him my paper, and I said, "Look, I only missed nine points on the whole test." And he pulled out of his drawer a graph and went through from the graph for my class, and said, "Look at this graph." And I looked at it, and the majority had gotten 90 or above. And he showed me how I fell exactly, just above the hump that he called a C, with that 91 points. And that is how they did the grading. He graded. He-he charted the-the grades of every student along this curve, and that is how you received your grade, not how many points you got on a test, but where you fell on that bell shaped curve. And I remember being so frustrated. [laughs] I did find the actual system there pretty frustrating. Even when I was there, when I look back on, I go, "Huh," but even when I was there, I remember thinking, this is really annoying. [laughs] IG: 15:48 So, at the time, did Harpur College have a reputation of being a tough school academically? JS: 15:55 Yeah-yeah. In fact, my guidance counselor at my high school called Niagara wheatfield. I lived at- the name of the town was actually Wheatfield, right outside of Niagara Falls. I remember my guidance counselor saying to me, “You are not going to get in there.” But I did get accepted and-and so I went. But I think with a 90, with a lower 90 high school average, I was on the lower end of the people accept it at Harpur College. So, I struggled, but I graduated, and some of those other people did not. [laughs] IG: 16:27 So, do you think that they did not graduate? Did Harpur College have also the reputation of being a party school or? JS: 16:34 No, not at all. No, not at all. IG: 16:37 Very studios. JS: 16:37 Yeah, no. IG: 16:40 What did you study? JS: 16:42 Well, mostly Spanish [crosstalk], but I started [crosstalk] IG: 16:46 [inaudible] academically [inaudible] JS: 16:48 Um, it was tough, but it was um, not what I expected. I expected I had come back just from Ecuador, speaking a lot of Spanish, and I wanted to build on that and improve on that. And instead, it was strictly a literature curriculum. It was read-read-read- IG: 17:02 Right-right. In English? JS: 17:08 -and no in Spanish. IG: 17:10 Uh-huh. JS: 17:10 You would read the novels in Spanish, but some professors conducted class in English and some in Spanish. It was, it was a mix. IG: 17:18 Right. JS: 17:19 And so, it was not what I had hoped. I had hoped to get much stronger in my Spanish, and I developed some strengths from the reading, some vocabulary, but not- I did not become [crosstalk], yeah, I- we did not- I took every conversation course they offered while I was there--usually they were only two credit courses, where our courses at the time were four credits. IG: 17:41 Right. JS: 17:42 Because they were on that trimester thing. We had four courses each semester, and each course was worth four credits. So, we did 16 credits per semester, and they only offered these two credit conversation courses, and I think I wound up with a total of eight credits in conversation. So, it was not exactly what I had hoped I still had the opportunity to use the language, but it was different than what I expected. IG: 18:05 Do you have any professors that stand out in your memory as being exceptional? JS: 18:13 Oh, absolutely. A bunch of- IG: 18:15 Give us some examples. JS: 18:16 -bunch of them who are excited in what they did and very good. And there was a fellow who died shortly after I graduated. His last name was Bachelor, Dr. Bachelor, and he was so enthusiastic. He would read these books and say, does not this like tug at your heartstrings. I mean, what motion [crosstalk] IG: 18:33 Remember the books that he went- JS: 18:35 Oh, God. That is tough. IG: 18:36 What were the classes? the literature [crosstalk] JS: 18:40 What were the classes- IG: 18:40 The literature classes? What-what writers did you... JS: 18:45 Oh, my goodness, that is tough. I remember that the categories, I remember we did one whole thing on-on South American literature, one on the Golden Age in Spain. I mean, the courses that they were centered around those particular things. I mean, we read all the classic ones. Read Cervantes, if you can believe it, we read the Quixote from start to finish- IG: 19:07 That is incredible. JS: 19:07 -three-three tones. [laughs] There was a lot of reading, a lot. IG: 19:13 For- you know, how many people did you have, how many students did you have in a class--for example, by today's standards? JS: 19:20 For example, by today's standards, pretty small, I am going to say between 15 and 20 in a class. Yeah-yeah. IG: 19:30 So, what other, what other, you know, faculty really made an outstanding impression? JS: 19:36 Oh, gosh, what I remember, hmmm [crosstalk] IG: 19:41 -friends with anyone after you know- JS: 19:44 Faculty, people? IG: 19:45 Faculty, yes. JS: 19:46 Hmm, I do not know that I did--Jeff did. I think Jeff actually went to a couple of their homes and things like that. But um, no. IG: 19:57 So, you did not, you did not- JS: 19:59 Yeah, I mean, on campus, we would visit with them and go to their office and talk with them. There was a German professor that I loved. I had to drop German after about a year because I could not fit in. If you wanted to graduate with a major in Spanish- IG: 20:14 Right. JS: 20:14 -you had to have another romance language. IG: 20:16 I see. JS: 20:17 And I could not carry three languages and still do all the other required courses that I needed. IG: 20:24 So, which other romance language... JS: 20:26 I picked up Italian. So, I did Italian for a while. IG: 20:29 So, do you think that Romance were strengths of Harper College at the time? JS: 20:35 Romance Languages? IG: 20:36 Yes. JS: 20:38 Well, they have very strong Romance Language department. IG: 20:40 Very strong. JS: 20:41 Oh, yeah, sure, yeah. IG: 20:43 So, if you did not go to faculties' homes, you know what-how you know, what was your recreation like? You- did you belong to any clubs or organizations? How did you unwind? Yeah. JS: 21:01 A couple clubs that- not a lot. Honestly, it was study-study-study. There really, was not- IG: 21:08 Really? JS: 21:08 -a lot of spare time for other things. We-we joined a few organizations, um, I belonged to the Newman Club, but they met maybe once a week for an hour. IG: 21:19 What was Newman Club? JS: 21:19 Newman Club was affiliated with the Catholic Church. Um and um, I cannot even remember what we did together. [laughter] Terrible. What-what sticks in my mind are the things we did together as friends, like that silly stuff I told you about the panty raids and-and, or one time when there was a terrible snowstorm, we all walked all the way from campus into Downtown Binghamton and found the only restaurant still open, and-and, you know, had had a good time there. IG: 21:23 I see. What was Binghamton like at the time? Was it very rural or...? JS: 22:01 No. Actually, I think it had more greater population than it does now. Actually, did not have the state- the tall state office tower buildings yet, or anything like that, but it was a busy place. But they did not- there was not too much town and gown mingling. They did not really care for Harpur College students. They-they always referred to us as the Harpur hippies. IG: 22:25 Oh, I see, yes. JS: 22:26 Um, when I went to the public library in Downtown Binghamton to get a library card, and she was very friendly and said, you know, fill out this form, do not worry. And I had put, you know, Box 187 Harpur College. And she went, "Oh, Harpur College," her whole demeanor, her whole tone, everything changed. I remember going for an interview for a job after I first graduated, and some kids hanging out of school, and some kids hanging out with school bus go, "There she is. There she is. That is the Harpur hippie. That is the Harpur" and I did not look like a hippie other than that. I had long hair, but that was about it. IG: 23:01 That is, that is very interesting, and it opens up a number of questions. So, you would go to the public library, would you, you know, would you use the library on campus? And what was it like? JS: 23:17 Oh, yeah, I go to the public library for novels and things like that. IG: 23:21 Yeah. JS: 23:21 I go to the one on Harpur College for everything else. All my school needs, whatever books we were supposed to read, or if I did not understand something I was reading, I would go there to look for an analysis of what I was reading. It was I looked at the one on campus much more academically. And by the way, there only was one I bring now, like I have lost track. Everybody has a library. The science building, there was just one, and it was all open stacks. And that is not true with all everything anymore. IG: 23:51 Going back to Harpur hippie. So how did the college acquire this reputation? Was it for the anti-war activism, do you think? JS: 24:02 I think in large part, I the first I remember hearing of Harper College back home in Niagara Falls or in the town of Wheatfield [chuckles] was when they sent people to protest the house on Un-American Activities Committee hearings in Washington, DC, and that is when they started to gain that reputation that they were this extreme liberal group, they did not use the term progressive back then or anything. But I remember people say- yeah, at that time, it was a small college. The reason I picked it is I applied at three state universities. First of all, only state universities, because they were the cheapest. IG: 24:41 Yes. JS: 24:42 And then when I was accepted at all three Albany, Buffalo and Harpur, I picked Harpur because it was the smallest, and you asked me about the class size- IG: 24:50 Yes. JS: 24:50 -that had, that had a lot of meaning for me, the fact that there was a lot of interpersonal exchange with the professors and all that kind of stuff. And to this day, I really appreciated that we got to know our professors. IG: 25:01 Were your parents involved at all in your college decisions? JS: 25:07 To the extent that they said I could apply anywhere I wanted, as long as it said SUNY in front of it. IG: 25:13 Okay. JS: 25:13 That was a financial. That was a financial. IG: 25:16 Did they know about Harpur's sort of liberal reputation? JS: 25:22 I am sure they have, they had heard of it. They were both well-read but-but I do not think they care. IG: 25:27 They were fine about it. JS: 25:28 Yeah, I do not think they cared one way or another. They did go with me once to visit the campus before I started there. IG: 25:35 So, what did you do after you graduated? You said that you found a job as a school teacher. Did you go- so what was your just career and trajectory like? In essence- JS: 25:52 Wow! That is, um... IG: 25:54 Did you- were you a Spanish school teacher all your life, or... JS: 25:58 Yeah, pretty much, although once I was, um into education--a flyer came across my desk for- from Nazareth College, which is based up in Rochester. IG: 26:10 Right. Right. JS: 26:11 But they were offering what they called satellite courses in Ithaca for English as a second language, and I always enjoyed that. In fact, I had volunteered to teach some kids at the public library who were who had come to this country, who needed English as a second language. And I enjoyed it. And I thought, well, that would be interesting. So, I took those courses and got certified in ESL as well. So um, that did me well, because I only worked part time for a while when my kids were little, and I had been working 80 percent at Union Endicott, when this flyer came across my desk, and then there was an opening out in Owego full time. And so, I moved out there, and they started using me as ESL as well, since I had my certification. And then when I retired from teaching Spanish out in Owego, um SUNY Cortland called and said they- their modern language department taught both Spanish and English as a Second Language, and they could use me with both certifications and all that kind of stuff. So, to this day, I still work part time for SUNY Cortland, and my ESL still serves me well, so I use both. I use. IG: 27:25 Excellent. JS: 27:25 Yes. IG: 27:27 So, do you think um, that um, you mentioned that the school had a very strong academic reputation? How do you think that you know, it shaped you for your, you know, for your future life? Do you think it- could we say that-that it- JS: 27:49 Oh, sure. IG: 27:50 -a formative that you had a formative experience there, because some people just go through college without [crosstalk] JS: 27:55 Yeah, I think some of the people who graduated did so because they learned I had to stick to it and really keep working hard and um, and it forced me to, create, develop that kind of persona- IG: 27:56 Yes. JS: 27:59 -where I am going to stick to it and I am going to get it and I- you know, I am going to get over that stupid hump on the bell shape. It certainly shaped me that way. For me that way. IG: 28:26 Do you think that the liberal arts, you know, academics, open doors that-that would not have been opened otherwise, or is that fair to say? JS: 28:36 Open minds- IG: 28:37 Open minds, open minds... JS: 28:38 -for sure. I to this day, I highly recommend that people have a kind of liberal arts education. You need to know about everything in this world. And when you get a liberal arts education, you are exposed to psychology, sociology, you name it. We had to have a little bit of everything in the first two years before we could go on and specialize. And I think everybody needs that if you are going to understand each other and understand other programs. And yeah, I would highly recommend it. IG: 28:42 Is the open mindedness, what attracted you to your husband when you met him? JS: 29:22 Open mindedness. Is he open minded? [laughs] IG: 29:27 I am assuming. Well, I do not know. What attracted me to Jeff? I would say no. I would say more his well- yes, he had to be open minded if he was close minded. No, absolutely not. That would, that would be a detraction so that so I guess maybe you are right. I had not thought about it that way. It is more his gentleness, kindness, concern for other people. That kind of stuff is what really attracted me to him. How did you meet? JS: 29:53 Um, he was a terrible language student, and this is true. [laughs] This is how we met. And I sat here, and he sat there, and he kept moving my arm because he did not understand anything the professor was saying. And he poked me [inaudible] "What did she say? What did she say?" So, I quick translated into English for him, and he would peek and see what-what I had done for homework. He did not get to move my arms during tests, though, or-or he would find out when I was going to the language lab. That was part of our classes too. So, he could sit beside me and because you would have these earphones on headsets, and he would say, "Okay, what did they say? What they say?" [laughs] And then, I remember coming back to the dorm one night and seeing him there, that guy in the Spanish class. Who does not know any Spanish? IG: 30:42 When did you meet? When- remember, were you a freshman, or... JS: 30:46 Oh, yeah, it was first semester. Because it was so small--the summer, the summer sessions were small because once you get accepted there, then you can pick what semesters you are going to attend. And many people just chose to attend two semesters a year rather than do the whole three in part because of the war, they did not want to graduate early, as long as they were a student, they still had a deferment. Um, so um, some people would go all three semesters. Some people would only go two semesters, and the summer semester, therefore was small, and you got to know almost everybody on campus, and he was living in the same dorm as I-- Johnson. And one wing, they called this a co-ed dorm. I know this isn't how it works now, but one wing was women and one wing was men, and the men were not allowed on the women's floor. The Women's were not allowed on the men's side, but that was our co-ed dorm. And after 11:00 curfew, there was some dispute as to who went where, but I seem to recall, the women were only allowed in the upper lounge, and the men were allowed in the lower area where the rec room and the snack machines were. Um, I guess it depended on which dorm you were in, because whoever was not allowed where the snack machines were would yell down and actually drop money and ask them to buy candy bars or something. We would throw them up. [laughs] So he was in the same dorm, so I saw him every time was coming and going, and then he was also in my experimental psychology class too. So. IG: 32:24 Was he allowed to visit you in your dorm? JS: 32:30 Well, I remember [crosstalk] he was, he was living in the same dorm, but he was only allowed in a men's wing, and we were allowed in the women's wing. IG: 32:36 Oh, in other words, he could not come into the women's room. JS: 32:40 No. IG: 32:40 No, I did not [crosstalk] JS: 32:41 I am going to say once, I do not remember exactly how often, but I am going to say about once a month they had open house. But even then, even then, if say I-I invited him to my room, which I was allowed to do during open house. When he came up, we were supposed to stand at the entrance to that floor and yell "Man on the floor" so that anybody could close their doors if they knew a man was coming through. So yeah, we did that. We yelled "Man on the floor," [laughs] and then he could come in and visit. IG: 33:17 Did anybody think of contesting those rules, or you did not really... JS: 33:23 I do not know. I remember when they opened the Hinman complex. Again, Jeff might be able to answer this better than I, with him being on a Ju-judicial review board and things like that. At some point the decision was made, and I do not know by whom to allow that to be a co-ed dorm where- again, only women in one suite and one floor, but we were, we were allowed to make our own rules. And so, we called them the self regs, because somebody first asked me which dorm I had lived in over there. And I said, "No, we call it the self reg" so um, [laughs] we actually made rules that-that did away with curfew for women over there. That was the that was a first on campus when we first moved into the Hinman complex. So that is when it started to change while we were still there. [laughs] IG: 34:19 That is incredible. So, did you feel empowered? JS: 34:22 Absolutely. [laughs] Yep. IG: 34:27 So, getting back to Jeff, so how you know- how did your relationship develop? You know, did you become girlfriend and boyfriend in college or... JS: 34:41 Yeah-yeah. IG: 34:41 did you [inaudible] after graduation? JS: 34:43 He invited me on a hayride, they actually had a hayride on campus. Yeah, that was our first date. Was on a hayride. And, yeah, it was on again, off again. Because this is the first thing that came to my mind when you said open mindedness. Jeff was Jewish and I was Catholic. IG: 34:57 Yes. JS: 34:58 Um, and it was not seemed to be a problem for my parents. My father was Presbyterian or something, and as far as my mother was concerned, that meant they were a mixed marriage, because we used to, they used to make fun of me because my mom called it a mixed marriage, and to most of the kids on campus, a mixed marriage was black and white or something like that. So, but we have done that DNA test, and Jeff is something like 97.6 percent Ashkenazi Jew. I mean, there was no mingling, and his parents were beside themselves that he was going to hang out with a "shiksa." [laughs] And so it was on and off again. We go out for three, four weeks. And then he-he would actually call and say, you know, we have to break up because, you know you are not Jewish and all this kind of stuff. And then he called me again, and he said, you want to go see the movie on campus. And I would say, "Is this a date?" He said, "Oh no, absolutely not." I said, "Oh, well, then who else is going," "Well, nobody else." And I say, "Sounds like a date to me?" "No, it is not a date." [laughs] So that is what I thought at first when you said, open minded. IG: 36:10 No-no [inaudible] JS: 36:11 It really did not play a role one way or another. [laughs] IG: 36:16 So how long did it take you before he- before you became a couple? JS: 36:23 That- it was definite that was on again off again, I am going to say, a couple of years before he decided, okay, it is on. He will tell you; it was my red hair. [laughs] I used to have red hair that he just could not resist. I do not know. [laughs] IG: 36:40 So that that is, so that is, that is very interesting, and we are- I will ask him this question, but where is he from? JS: 36:52 He is from Long Island. IG: 36:53 From Long Island. JS: 36:54 We were different economic strata as well. His dad was a CPA, and did very well. IG: 37:01 Yeah. JS: 37:02 And that bothered his parents, too. I am positive, but. IG: 37:08 So, um, I think I am just thinking of what else I can ask you-- so-so you know, did your-your lives, your lives continued um, in Binghamton? You stayed both in Binghamton and your husband, found work here, and you settled down. Um, did you continue having ties with the college itself? I know that you have friends, but did you have occasion to, you know, visit for some kind of alumni event, or... JS: 37:49 We still do, we still do. I think that is probably how you found this. We still go over. Yeah um, there have always been plays to see, concerts to do. And as we came to know more and more people in the community, even they would be a draw. For example, my son's friend was in the music program, and so we would go over whenever he was doing a recital, even if it was for his thesis or something, you know. So, there were all kinds of reasons to-to draw us over there. We have done partnerships with they have partnership program with foreign students, and we have done that several times. IG: 38:28 Could you explain that? JS: 38:29 Well, um, you just [inaudible] as an alumni. They will send you things, saying, "Would you help out with this program or something?" And if you say yes, then they match you up with-with a student. For example, there was a student, Shen-Shen Zhou, who's now going for her doctorate here. Who- when she first came here from China, they said, "Well, she has no family in the area? You would be in lieu of her family." If there is a holiday, and you know, there is- campuses emptying out, have her over. So, we had her for Thanksgiving, Christmas, things like that. And eventually she met an American guy and married him, but we went to the wedding and-and there was another young lady from Pakistan that we got matched up with, and she is now living in Boston, and she is- we are together on Facebook. We do not see her as much as we see Shen-Shen, but. IG: 39:21 So-so um, you know, what was your activity with the students? Like, did you take them out to restaurants, or [crosstalk] JS: 39:30 We brought them here. IG: 39:31 You brought them here. JS: 39:32 Brought them here. [crosstalk] No-no, they lived on campus. IG: 39:36 But to have dinner here for the family. JS: 39:38 Yeah. Uh-hmm. IG: 39:40 Over what period of time? JS: 39:42 Depended on who they matched us up with and how long they stayed here. IG: 39:47 Of course, was this, after your- first of all, how many children and did- went to Binghamton, where did your- JS: 39:59 [crosstalk] our own children? IG: 40:01 Yes-yes. JS: 40:02 My son went to- well, he started at Broome Community College. IG: 40:06 Yes. JS: 40:06 And graduated from Ithaca- IG: 40:08 I see. JS: 40:09 -in communications. So, he works for Channel 34 news station- IG: 40:13 Oh! That is great. JS: 40:14 -here, he is a news producer. He is not on camera, but he does- he makes commercials and all that kind of stuff, which is kind of fun, because when I see really bad one on TV, you know those car commercials that are so hokey, I will call and say, "Did you do that commercial?" [inaudible] "Mom, we do whatever the customer wants." [laughs] "I know what you are going to say." And our daughter that you met her already lives about five minutes down the road and is a secretary in the guidance office at Union Endicott High School. IG: 40:44 Oh! JS: 40:44 So, they are both- both local, which is very nice. That means our grandchildren are local. IG: 40:51 So, they did not go to Binghamton University. JS: 40:53 No-no. IG: 40:54 I misunderstood. JS: 40:56 No, they were there. They know of it, but yes, no, neither one of them attended classes there. No. IG: 41:02 So apart from the foreign student program, do you look upon Binghamton sort of as a cultural center? JS: 41:12 Oh, yeah, for sure. IG: 41:14 After graduation. JS: 41:14 Yeah, we have gone to plays, you know, orchestra type performances, some alumni events. Yeah, whatever we see is going on over there. We will, we will stop by, and we are sort of a hub for all these friends I told you about who now live everywhere else, like we really got together this fall. For many of them graduated in 1967. Jeff and I graduated in (19)68 but some of them went through that- went faster through the trimester program, and so this was their 50th, so they wanted to do something for their 50th. So, we had a house full, and we all met over on campus and attended some of the activities there. IG: 42:03 So-so did you know, actually, did you have a vision of what your life after graduation would be like? Or did it kind of just fall into place? JS: 42:19 For me, I cannot. I know a lot of people plan-plan-plan for me, it just kind of fell into place. After Ecuador, I decided I wanted to do something with Spanish. I was not even sure what, but I sort of started volunteering to work with kids and enjoyed the teaching. And right about the time we were ready to graduate, or just before, they created the MAT program, and it was like an opening, okay, we could do that. We both managed to get jobs teaching-- Jeff more because- IG: 42:47 [inaudible] MAT program? JS: 42:48 Masters in the Art of Teaching. IG: 42:49 I see. JS: 42:50 I think they still have it. IG: 42:51 Yeah. JS: 42:52 And, I mean, it has changed over the years. First, they had Spanish, then they did not, then they did. I think it was back. But Jeff, more so than I was looking at the teaching end of it, because you could still get a deferment from the war for being a teacher, and that was important, so important to so many of those young guys. And that is how he ended up in it. I just sort of naturally gravitated toward it because I liked it. And since we both got jobs here and had decided to get married. Right after we got our bachelors, we just stayed here and finished our masters. And his parents tried to get him to go to Long Island, but every time he goes down there and we get stuck in traffic, or there would be long lines, he would say, "No, I really do not want to live there." [laughs] IG: 43:40 So, you know, how has- I am just wondering, how has Binghamton University changed over time? Harpur College changed over time in your perception of a better school, a better experience, or is there something missing? JS: 43:57 It is different. [laughs] I mean, there are good things and there are bad things, if you recall, one of the things I liked the best was the smallness of it and how you could get to know everybody. That is no longer true. But then there are a lot more opportunities in so many different fields than there used to be. There did not used to be a school of engineering, there did not used to be a school of nursing. There did not- you know, all these now that there was one in pharmacy, they never used to have all those opportunities um, but it is so big now you can get lost over there. So, it, it is different. I mean, there is there is good and-and bad from- IG: 44:36 Do you think most of your graduating class did well for themselves? The majority? JS: 44:41 Yeah-yeah. Well, certainly, all the ones we have kept in touch with- IG: 44:46 Kept in touch with. JS: 44:47 Absolutely. IG: 44:48 The ones with a strong liberal arts education? JS: 44:51 Mm-Hmm, for sure. IG: 44:53 So, what are the most important lessons that you have learned from the experience of going to Harpur College? JS: 45:01 Goodness, what is the most- lessons. Huh. [laughs] I mean, I certainly learned a lot about how to deal with life. Um, I learned it- opened up my world. Remember, I came from that tiny little family in Niagara Falls. It started really with the exchange student experience, but it continued with-with Harpur. I mean, again, I found a culture that I was not familiar with. They caught- they actually called me for a while. Maybe he will remember the funny little upstate girl, because most of the people on campus were from downstate, and even that in and of itself, I found bizarre that they called me up upstate when they said they were coming upstate, when they were coming to Binghamton, to me, coming from Niagara Falls, coming to a place that borders with Pennsylvania, is downstate, and they said, "No-no-no-no-no, you do not understand it all." If you are anywhere north of Yonkers, you are upstate. In fact, even if you are in Yonkers, you are upstate. [laughs] So it was a culture that I was totally unfamiliar with, and was honestly a little scary at first. It was a different accent. They were much more outgoing and much quicker to criticize. I was kind of inhibited no longer, but I really was kind of inhibited and did not speak up, and learned to do all of that there. So that guess that partially answer your question. IG: 46:31 Right. So, it is kind of an acculturation. JS: 46:34 Absolutely, yep. IG: 46:37 And I think you know, broadening experience. Um, what you know, what was the proudest memory from being at Harpur College? JS: 46:50 That I graduated. [laughs] IG: 46:52 That you graduated. JS: 46:53 There were times when I was not sure that was going to happen. When I saw that a 91 was a c plus, you know, that I made it, but maybe that sticks out, you know, more than anything else, and my father coming to me that and telling me that I was the first person in his family to have graduated from college. Now my mom did, but he met on his side of the family. So. IG: 47:21 Do you have any sort of concluding remarks? We still have your husband to interview. That is another [crosstalk] JS: 47:29 Well, see if he says the opposite of everything. [laughs] Third speaker: 47:34 I have a question. JS: 47:35 Sure. Third speaker: 47:36 You studied Spanish. Was there any Spanish speaking person in campus as a student at that time? JS: 47:44 Yeah. Third speaker: 47:45 Like someone from Spain or Latin America? JS: 47:47 Well, there was a fellow that lived in our dorm that we were friends with. I do not know what happened to a Māori Cruise. He was from Cuba. Third speaker: 47:54 Okay. JS: 47:55 We hung out with him. Yeah, I encountered other ones, but I do not remember their names. Third speaker: 48:01 [crosstalk] some- JS: 48:02 Some, but not a lot. Third speaker: 48:04 How about Black? Were there any [crosstalk] JS: 48:06 Some, some, again, not a lot. One of our best friends was a guy by the name of [inaudible], and he was from what at the time was Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, and he had an interesting life. He was already in his 30s, but he was living on campus with all us youngsters, um trying to get his education, and eventually got his masters up at McGill because he needed a degree from some country within the British Commonwealth, so that when he went back to Zimbabwe, he could be successful, and I do not understand what happened to him, but he ended up in Belgium, I think so. I think there was no place for educated Blacks at the time in Rhodesia, Zimbabwe. I cannot remember exactly when it became Zimbabwe, but it was still Rhodesia when he was with us, but again, not a lot, not a lot. IG: 49:05 So, with the exception of you know, you opened a whole other set of questions, but with the exception of you who have, who had international experience before coming to college, do you think the rest of the student community was pretty, you know, white and insular, and mostly came from downstage. JS: 49:27 In my mind, a bunch of white downstairs. [laughs] IG: 49:30 Yeah. JS: 49:32 In my mind, yeah. IG: 49:33 So, there were very few international students or students of color [inaudible] JS: 49:38 I hope that is accurate, but that is how I remember it. Yeah. I mean, where are these folks? Go ahead, just look through the pictures. Well, this- these are Harpur College pages. At the time, Harpur College bought a place out in Halsey Valley--beyond Owego. And because Jeff was on the judicial review board, he knew who to talk to-to get the keys, and we would go out there, dorm room. I am sorry, you guys probably cannot see very much here. These are all Polaroids. Do you remember back when people used to do Polaroids? Jeff me, Jeff and me, Jeff and me. But this is at that place out in Halsey Valley. They called it Lake Empire. But what I am looking for- here we are--this was a duck- a boat race on the Susquehanna. Everybody had gone down there. Look at their faces. I do not know, folks. I am not seeing a lot of different ethnicities here. Well, there was Mach- there was Machana. We were good friends with him. He was, yeah-yeah. That is, let me see, that is Machana, yeah-yeah. IG: 50:55 For the faculty, yeah, international, did you have- JS: 50:59 Yes. IG: 51:00 Yes, so your Spanish department. Where did they come from? JS: 51:06 Senora Borgel was from Spain, itself, mostly Spain. One from Germany. IG: 51:19 Spanish teacher, Spanish- JS: 51:20 No, that was psychology, one from Switzerland. That was sociology. Where else they were from? IG: 51:37 Did having that kind of international, small presence, you know, connect you to the wider world, or change your view of- JS: 51:48 No not too much. IG: 51:49 Not too much. JS: 51:50 A little bit, but not a lot. Yeah, no, so you can see, yeah, you are right. They were mostly white, huh! Studying. Even when we were relaxing, we were studying. [laughs] IG: 52:09 You were studying. JS: 52:10 That is how I remember it. Somebody's always screwing up the bell-shaped curve pressure, but we are still good friends with him, with her, with her, her, both of them. They live up in Syracuse. Most of us met our spouses there. IG: 52:29 Oh, really. JS: 52:30 Yeah, kind of lost touch with her and her, but our resident, our head resident in our dorm, had was married and had a baby. That is that was his little one. His first name was Dean. Is that a bizarre name for a campus? Think about this. There were so many people that would say to him every time they saw him, hello, Dean Porter. And I know they thought the Dean was his title, not his name, but it was his name. He was not a dean. He was just the resident that had resident. IG: 53:07 Where was this photograph taken on campus? JS: 53:09 No, they, they took a break one spring and went, during spring break, went camping in the not Great Smokies, Shenandoah-Shenandoah area, down in Virginia. IG: 53:27 So, did-did anybody- you did not have any foreign study programs at the time at Harpur College? JS: 53:34 Yeah, they did go, yeah, um, one of the young ladies here, one of my roommates, went to- they had a program in Salamanca, Spain. IG: 53:43 Yeah. JS: 53:43 And, and they also had one in France. I am trying remember the name of the city. It will come to me later. Yeah, there were, there were programs like that where you could go for a semester and study abroad. But that was expensive. And, yeah, I never went because I did not have the money, yeah. IG: 54:02 Subsequently, you went traveling and you saw these places, or some of those places. JS: 54:06 Most of them, not-not-not Spain, so much. Jeff and I have been down- well, we have hosted many, many exchange students here in this house, long term exchange students-- mostly wrote rotary students, but from a couple other organizations as well. And we have had four from Brazil, so we went down to Brazil and visited them. While we were there, we went over to Argentina, just because we were close. IG: 54:29 Wonderful. JS: 54:30 We could see we have been to Mexico a whole bunch of times. I would go shopping. He would make fun of me, because when I was teaching, I would buy all the little trinkets on the street and bring them back for prizes and things in class. And I remember one time having a whole bag of them. And we got to customs, and Jeff and that guy said, "Well, what did you buy…? IG: 54:51 Yeah. JS: 54:51 -in Mexico." And Jeff looked at the guy and went, "Junk." And the guy just said, "Okay, I passed through." [laughs] So to this day, I still tease them about junk that was not junk, that was stuff for my students. [laughs] IG: 55:05 But you kept up your language through these travels. JS: 55:08 Yeah. So yeah, use it some that way. Yeah. We also get together with other Spanish teachers. IG: 55:14 Oh, that is [inaudible] JS: 55:15 Although we retired teachers are starting to lose it. We-we first got together when we retired, and we would speak all in Spanish during lunch, and then it got to be just a half hour. And the last time we forced ourselves to do 10 minutes. [laughs] It is not quite what it used to be, yeah. IG: 55:32 Well, I can understand that language suffers from misuse. JS: 55:37 I keep it up more on campus. IG: 55:39 Yes. JS: 55:40 When I go up to Cortland- and I go into the Foreign Language Department, we are much more likely to address each other. [crosstalk] Yeah. IG: 55:41 I see. So, any concluding remarks? Do you have any outstanding memories? JS: 55:55 No, the only thing that sticks in my mind, and I am not sure it is where you want to go with this, but how nice it was back then. You know how people are talking right now about this big deal, free tuition, free college, tuition, everything. We basically had that at Harpur College-- they only accepted you if you had an average in the 90s or so. And we used to take something called the regents exam, regions, scholarship exam, which no longer exists, and we all scored high enough on it that we all got a regent scholarship. And that regent scholarship paid our tuition. Our tuition was only $200 a semester, and but that meant for me, as a kid from a lower income family with five children, with just a factory worker dad and so on, I could go to college with no problem. All my tuition was covered. It was free. In that sense, room and board was more. I borrowed money for some of the room and board, and my parents paid for some of it, but it made it relatively painless to get through college, to get a college education, so that you could rise, in other words, you could have a mobile, social, economic society. And so, it is quite doable. It is quite possible. And I feel really strongly about that, that we could do it if we had the political will. I mean, it was done. It is not a first. We had it, [laughs] and I am very grateful for that, or I would not be here. [laughs] You know, IG: 56:52 That is what it should be. JS: 57:29 Yeah, so and Harpur College had that for sure. IG: 57:34 And most, do you think that most kids had- were there on scholarship, or... JS: 57:40 I' d say most of the kids on campus had a scholarship just because of our averages. Yeah-yeah. Jeff did, I did. IG: 57:46 Academic scholarships. Third speaker: 57:48 And that also made a huge difference, of course, campus life, because everyone was intellectually- IG: 57:56 motivated, Third speaker: 57:57 Same level. IG: 57:59 yeah-yeah. for sure. So that is it. Well, good. Third speaker: 58:05 Thank you very much. JS: 58:07 Thank you. It has been fun talking about it. You know, and trying to make me think of things I have not thought about them. I will leave that here if you want something. Oh, this would be a better indicator you were asking about ethnicities and stuff. Just flip through it. This is the, yeah, look, it looks all white to me. Gosh, I never thought about that. Yeah, holy cow. IG: 58:37 I think that was probably standard at the time. Do not you think? JS: 58:41 I guess, I guess how sad. Kept touch with some of these people. Yeah, you are welcome to skim through it to see what you can find. But they are, they are broken up by- IG: 59:02 Year? JS: 59:03 No, by majors. And so, I wonder if there would be a difference, depending on whether you are looking at humanities or sciences or I will bet you find a difference between male and female. Betcha-betcha [bet you]. Find most of the females in the humanities part. Third speaker: 59:21 Absolutely. JS: 59:24 Anyway. IG: 59:25 I love this. [laughs] JS: 59:28 You want me, let me go get- yes, that was the other thing too. Do you know a lot of schools at that time were still insistent that everybody dress family for dinner? We were Harpur hippies. They did not have a dress code. You could wear jeans. IG: 59:42 She breaks the mode. JS: 59:43 At night and-and that is a little bit what-what they look like. [laughs] IG: 59:48 Is it a little bit what you look like? JS: 59:50 Oh, yeah. Jeans- IG: 59:51 Glasses, jeans. JS: 59:53 We all, we all, we were all nerds. We all have glasses. We- IG: 59:57 She has sunglasses. JS: 59:58 No, yeah, that is different. IG: 59:59 [inaudible] JS: 1:00:01 But we were all in jeans, yeah. IG: 1:00:03 Boots. JS: 1:00:04 Yeah, I did not do boots, IG: 1:00:06 Yeah. Okay. JS: 1:00:07 Yeah, let me go get the other guy and relieve him. IG: 1:00:11 Thank you so much. JS: 1:00:12 Send him your way. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Janice L. Strauss Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Strauss, Janice L. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Janice is a Niagara Falls native. She worked as a Spanish teacher in Broome County. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Janice Strauss.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-12-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:14 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e162d0976f2a44d20b79d13e6eb64bdd.mp3 ab0608b778bb679eb6a4bd72334ea5f6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-03-29 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Janice Quinter Year of Graduation 1973 Biographical Text Janice (Ebenstein) Quinter attended Harpur College from 1970-1973 and graduated with a Bachelors in Anthropology and a minor in Afro-American Studies. After working at the American Museum of Natural History she was awarded a Master's degree in Anthropology and Certificate in Museum Studies from New York University in 1980. She spent her career as an archivist in research repositories in every borough in New York City, including 24 years at the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, of the New York Public Library. Janice is happy to have contributed to increasing human knowledge about many areas of study. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Janice Quinter Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 29 March 2019 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) JQ: 00:08 My present name is Janice Quinter. That is QUINTER. My unmarried name is Ebenstein EBENSTEIN. I was at Harpur from 1970 to (19)73 for three years as a transfer student living in Jackson. And I am happy to be conducting the interview about my experiences in very fun kind of memories of Harpur College at Binghamton. IG: 00:39 Very good, very good. So maybe you could tell us where you grew up and what your family background was like, and whether education was encouraged and your family; what your parents did. JQ: 01:00 My parents were born in the 1910s in New York City. They were born of Jewish parents, my two brothers and myself are Jewish. I have two older brothers. My parents did not attend college. They graduated from high school in New York City, which at that time was like getting at least a community college degree, if not-not more advanced than that. My mother loved the English in English language in foreign languages. So, she learned to articulate the language very carefully and to spell and love literature. She- we lived in a housing project, which I am very proud of actually, in Rockaway Beach called the "Arverne Housing Project." Completed just a few months before I was born, I was born in 1951. My parents moved in-in late 1950. My father was a war veteran and was stationed in Europe and fought in Germany, Luxembourg, and France. My parents met here in New York City in Manhattan. And would married at 19- f- f- knowing to the for five years--my parents were married in 1942. My father sold housewares because his family had done similar kinds of things. And my parents, my father was in it was in the military for about five-five and a half years. He was drafted in 1942, served eleven months war broke out. He married my mother within a short period of time after that, and then went off to war for another four years. And my brother was born in 1943. So, my father so my brother, a short period of time my mother lived with her parents up in Harlem at that time. And my mother worked when she needed to work because we were in a housing project, which was a wonderful place to live in in Rockaway right next to the beach, with many interesting, very nicely behaved students, kids at the time and parents who most of them had had fathers who are war veterans. So, the housing project was built to accommodate the war veterans and their wives and children at the time. So many of the children were my age. My mother worked in a library for a number of years, for 14 years before she retired in 1986. My father retired the same year. We are Jewish, and it was just inculcated in us without ever I do not recall my parents ever telling us to do any homework, to do homework or read or have any particular things that we must we just knew that education is very important. You will wind up going to college and pursuing our interests. I, being the only girl and the kind of the oddball kid had all these unusual interests, like archaeology and anthropology, and American Indian Studies and travel to not the norm kinds of places. So, my parents did not encourage me per se, they just kind of enabled me to do these things. For example, I did not attend my high school graduation because in 1969 from Far Rockaway High School because I had applied for an archaeology field program in Pennsylvania. And as most students across the country complete their high school year in early June, this program was due to begin in late June. So, I opted to not attend the what was the gala for the students. IG: 04:54 The graduation ceremony. JQ: 04:56 The prom, end of June. And I had even gotten the dress and earrings and all the other paraphernalia. Nor did I go to my high school graduation my parents did not mind at all because they knew that this was-was that attending the field program in archaeology was far more important to me than going to exercises like that. IG: 05:15 You know, how did you develop these interests so early on that is quite remarkable. Usually it is, it is something that comes into one's life at a later, at a later point, right? Not-not in high school. JQ: 05:29 My earliest recollection of becoming interested in archaeology was when I was in grade school and the teacher--I must not could have been a third of fourth grade--the teacher read some story about cavemen and that just intrigued me. My mother bought a book for me. Later on, I guess I was already in junior high school by that time about geology or earth science. So, I devour that in and read the archaeology books that were available in the local library in Rockaway. And I got associated with somebody heading an archaeology program at the Brooklyn Museum in the late 1960s. So, I got involved in that kind of thing. So that by the time I was in junior high school, I already knew that I was going to study archaeology, and I never wavered from that it was my path was set. [laughs] By the time I was perhaps 14 or so. So, I wound up getting a bachelor's in anthropology from Harpur College, SUNY Binghamton. And then I had the opportunity when I was already at Harpur, to go to West Africa, between my junior and senior years. So, I wound up being able to minor, an Afro American Studies. IG: 06:49 Tremendous-tremendous. So why did you choose Harpur because of its art- you know, why-why- tell us. JQ: 06:57 I was graduated from high school in June 1969. I was not very good--I should say a competent student in algebra. So, my average was brought down my overall average was brought down because of that. This was before open admissions, which people my age who lived in New York City will know about, my average was half a point too low to be admitted to Hunter College, living in Rockaway Beach, all the colleges were quite far from me. So, Hunter College would have been the only college which I could have gotten to in about an hour or hour, about an hour and a quarter to an hour and a half travel on the subway--all the other colleges would have been not possible to have reached. So, my average was 83.5, I needed 84. So, I was not admitted. I went to New York City Community College in Brooklyn on J Street for my freshman year. And I loved that college. The students were really interesting, involved in everything very open about their feelings and the world around them, the Civil Rights kinds of things going on and different kinds of music. And it was- I was completely happy at that school. But I knew I wanted to study anthropology. So, I took all the regular subjects but not anthropology at New York City Community College. So, I took a year of geology, I was not permitted to take geology in high school because I was not an advanced student what [inaudible] called SP, SP three or SP two. IG: 06:58 I remember. JQ: 07:42 So, I could not take most interesting subject of all so I took history and French and literature and a fantastic philosophy course, which still has an impact on me. And gym, which was great, athletic programs. But I knew I did not want to go to that school for two years because I wanted to have a college which had strong academics in my chosen field. So, I got- I knew I wanted to go to a four-year CUNY- SUNY Center, not-not one of the regular colleges. They were all only four because I wanted better academics of the four- IG: 09:14 What do you mean by SUNY Center? JQ: 09:17 I am not using the right term. The four major centers- IG: 09:22 Research centers, or...? JQ: 09:23 -like Stony Brook Albany, Buffalo, I am sorry, not yet but Buffalo, the four major- IG: 09:30 I mean, there are there are universities, their universities within the SUNY system, but- JQ: 09:36 Yes, but for example, not-not-not Geneseo, not Plattsburgh- IG: 09:40 Right-right. JQ: 09:40 -those [crosstalk] IG: 09:40 Because they are the major research universities. So- Right. JQ: 09:44 That a special term now I am not-not able to recall the term but there were four colleges within the SUNY system of New York State, which were better than the regular local colleges [crosstalk] are-are-are four of them. So, of those Buffalo was for me was-was too far away and too cold. Albany was in another city and I lived in a big city. And Albany was not an interesting city to me was just a government city. Stony Brook had a reputation for being very druggie, which was not my area of wanting to become like that. So left SUNY Binghamton. So, I did not visit SUNY Binghamton. I select, simply selected out of a catalog at from-from Binghamton catalog. The catalog discussed the kinds of professors and when I counted in compared the PhD professor that those professors had PhDs with the other schools, they were far greater number in SUNY Binghamton. So, I chose to go there. And they also had a large number of anthropology courses. So, I simply chose Binghamton out of out of the catalog. IG: 10:54 So, when you first arrived, what were- what-what year did you arrive in? JQ: 11:00 I arrived in mid-September 1970. My parents drove me, drove me up with my belongings. There was no- at that time, most of the students lived on campus. But there was no student housing for me. So, my parents and I found a place where I could live for which included three meals a day for seven days a week off campus in the City of Binghamton five miles from the campus for over $21 a week. And then I had a roommate from the Bronx from the high school of the Bronx High School of Science. IG: 11:32 Right. JQ: 11:34 So, we roomed together for the year when house it became available on campus. For me then I moved into Dickinson College. IG: 11:42 So, what were your first impressions of the university? JQ: 11:47 Lots of mud. [laughs] Construction going on nonstop until the day I left and I think construction is still continuing. IG: 11:58 Yes-yes, it is. JQ: 12:02 Very cloudy and rainy. Not very pleasant weather. Fantastic students, excellent professors. Growing up in Rockaway Beach, I saw only a few trees in my life. We were too far away to go into Central Park or other parks outside of Rockaway, although we had done some traveling across the country. So, the fact that I could go to the women's gym walking down a path and sit at a bench and write some letters and do some reading and collect these colorful leaves, which I never knew existed and put them in dictionary, flatten them out and send them to friends. My let- my letters about what I was doing at Harpur College was endearing. I really had never seen colorful trees before. So, all the colors of the reds and the browns and the goldens and just being able to kick the leaves and run around and be able to- be safe because in the, in the late 1960s, 1970 New York City was not safe. So, I could not go out in the evening just be able to see earthworms. I had never seen an earthworm before. Even though I am from-from the outer area. We did not have earthworms in Rockaway, we did not have any earth it was all sand--lots of woods. I think that was my first impression, just the beautiful countryside and with really interesting students and very highly trained, thoughtful, intelligent professors. IG: 13:41 Do any professors stand out in your mind that made that influenced you that made a particular impact? JQ: 13:54 Yes, there were a couple, most especially professor Percy Borde [Percival Sebastian Borde], who was involved in the theater department. He taught West African- he was originally from Trinidad and taught West African dance which I took in the-the fall semester of 1970, spring semester 1972. I had never taken or seen dance from any other country in the world. Growing up in Rockaway Beach, we just had one-one regular culture and then a couple of other-other things. So, the fact that I could have the opportunity to take a dance course, in a culture other than my own is what attracted me to the culture. It was not that I was particularly interested in African or Black culture, but it is just different from my own. And anthropologists are curious about people who are not like us. So, I was eager to take that. IG: 15:02 So, what did you learn about the culture through the dance? You remember? JQ: 15:07 Yes, I remember quite a bit. The fact that the culture is intrinsic to- that dance is intrinsic to the to the culture, and everything that is important to the West African people, especially the Yoruba, who we focused on and those people also in Liberia, was expressed through the dance. So, we learned many of the dances which Percy Borde and his wife, quite famous dancer, also from Trinidad, Pearl Primus [Pearl Eileen Primus] had collected these dancers who had studied the dances and learn them in West Africa and then brought them back and we were able to learn them. We also learned- we presented our dances at the end of the semester. So, our graduation, so to speak from the class was to cook a West African styled food, wear-wear African clothing to the dance, we learned some words, we learned a whole array of other kinds of things. And then we presented this to the other students on campus. IG: 16:15 I am very curious about the dances so though this kind of diverges from now a little bit of your recollection of the Harpur, of the Harpur Binghamton experience. But were they, were they in any way invoking deities? Do they have any kind of Shamanic-shamanic underpinning or, I mean, that is- do you remember that about them? JQ: 16:46 Yes, but-but the answer is negative. They were not shamanistic in that sense. Perhaps. Percy and his wife had not learned those dances, but we were not told about that. IG: 16:58 I see. JQ: 16:58 So, they were more involved into there was a welcome dance, which is quite famous at Pearl made [inaudible]. And we learned that, we learned work dances-dances that would have been done in the field. More everyday kind of dances but not-not the religious kinds of things. IG: 17:14 I see. I see. JQ: 17:15 We did have a drummer who played the bongo drum quite carefully because the rhythm is very important. So, he competed us in our classes and performances. IG: 17:25 I know that the drum also has a special role in these dances and it is almost a call and response. Does-does that have that function in the Yoruba dances? Do you remember? JQ: 17:37 I do not recollect that in the dances. I-I mean, I know about in the music, but I do not recall that in the dances. But I did- through Percy Borde--he did invite a number of students with- to accompany him to West Africa to study during the entire summer. IG: 17:59 Did you go? JQ: 18:00 I sure did. IG: 18:01 Oh, how was that? JQ: 18:02 So again, my- here I was 21 years old. IG: 18:05 How fantastic. JQ: 18:06 I was- all the other students were Black and male and Protestant or Catholic, Christian. So here I am- IG: 18:16 How wonderful. JQ: 18:16 -the only girl the only white and the only do little petite skinny-skinny 110-pound gal who went and I did not get sick. I was very proud of that. So, I not only did I see- we were actually there to study the cultures in 44 countries in West Africa, Nigeria, Liberia, Ghana, and Dahomey, which is now called Guinean. So, we spent eight and a half nine weeks there. Percy was there that the entire time we had an interview and then we were selected and I was- I had wanted to participate because I was an anthropology student over the years an opportunity to learn everything, I could possibly soak up with an extraordinary person along with the other students. So, we met and we-we encountered segments of society from every realm of every stratified society. From the Oba has the Kings, the president of Liberia, we-we met him, we met the villagers. The villagers went to a lot of the villages. Many of the people when we were traveling had never- in villages had never seen a white person before. So, they would point to me and say in their local language, white man, white man, so it was quite-quite extraordinary. We studied at two universities had food prepared-prepared specially for us. The professors were extraordinary. So, we had courses in linguistic sociology, art, appreciation, so to speak, then actually doing the art, music, dance, the hist-history, the various problems that-that the societies faced, especially with the populations moving into the cities from the countryside. So, it was all immersive and utterly fantastic. So, I wound up years later in the 1990s, being asked by the head of the archives of the Schomburg Center for Research and black culture, which is the black Research Library of New York Public Library in Harlem, to work in the archives, so wanted to do that for 24 years. And then I retired five years ago from that. So yes, there was a very direct impact upon my worldview, as well as my career. And my, I think my contributions to society because of having met Percy Borde. I also then went the next semester. He- the spring semester, the year I was graduating, so that would have been the spring semester of 1973. He was also teaching a course in Caribbean dance, West Indian dance, which I participated in as well. And he had hoped to have taken a contingent of us with him to Trinidad, where he was from to study Trinidad in culture, but he was not able to get the funding for that. So, it did not quite pan out, but did not stop me. I met several other students whom he had introduced me to, and we together went to Trinidad for carnival that year. So, we were all there for two weeks, between February and March. And I had told my professors in advance that I would be missing two weeks of school my graduating semester, they gave me permission. Then I took I made up the courses in the test when I returned and graduated, luckily successfully. Another professor, who wound up being very influential, and whom I adore as well, is named Owen Lynch, an anthropologist who was brought up here in Flushing, Queens, and taught anthropology, social anthropology and anthropology, about India, Asia-India. I had him for an anthropology religion class, also when I was an upperclassman, and he was quite extraordinary. He loves students. He was very funny, a fantastic professor. And more than that, just fantastic human being very giving very humble, found all kinds of creative, practical ways to help the Indians whom he studied. And he studied the untouchables in the 1960s, and early (19)70s, before they really had any kind of freedom. He left Harpur around the same time I was graduating, oh, I did not want to add in my compliments to him that he was the only professor of all those at Harpur College who actually went to the graduation exercise for us. So, I was able to introduce him to my parents. And I have always remembered that his that is extraordinary love of student- love and appreciation of students by actually going to the graduation exercise on our behalf. He then left Harpur College because he had gotten an invitation to have a chair at NYU anthropology, the anthropology department. After four years, I wound up going to NYU for-for graduate studies. And he became very-very dear friend. I mean, he had been a dear friend before but he became very important to me there especially. So, I was with him during both colleges that he taught and much to my benefit, and I think to his as well, he and I remained very close friends till his death some years ago, and I saw him just a couple of months before he died and- IG: 18:16 Right-right. JQ: 24:07 -he and I remained close friends. I mean, my whole family knew him, he came to my wedding. He knew my children, so it was very endearing for all of us. IG: 24:18 That is tremendous. I mean, that is, that is tremendous. So interesting. How-how, you know, how did your- I mean, you had such a really enlightened privileged view of the world at such an early age. How did that shape sort of your-your, you know, politics about the civil rights movement in the United States? JQ: 24:59 Well, I-I should add that I came from a very standard background at the time. Rockaway Beach had primarily Jewish working-class families and students. IG: 25:14 Right. JQ: 25:15 In both the primary schools as well as up through high school, we had a few black students, a few Black-Black families who lived who went to the same schools that I did. And they were no, and there were some, some Irish Catholic Irish. And that was all, there were no Latin Americans because the law had not changed at that point. So perhaps it was my interest in anthropology, which gave me a broader perspective, but not-not when I was living in Rockaway, because I was just a very normal, ordinary existence. Although I was interested in the Civil War, but that was about before I went to college, but I thought that was the extent of my having any understanding about any other people. And all we studied about other countries in high school was, we were, we were, the United States was in that country to prevent the spread of communism that was repeated in every single class. So, it was certainly not-not in high school. Um, I and I did not really have an interest in Black culture, aside from being able to take Percy Borde's class, but I was between my junior and senior years. So, it did not develop early. But I, but I did meet Africans, there were a couple of Africans who were friends with Percy Borde whom I met and became friends with, in my senior year, still at a college. So, I think having been to West Africa and being exposed to so much, I had no preconceived notions about Africa before I went there. I remember when I arrived, one of the college students in Africa college student who was there not-not one of us American, SUNY, Binghamton students, asked what my notions were about Africa. He asked that I think was like Tarzan people getting a golden round from tree to tree. And I had never thought that I had no thoughts. And I had no preconceived ideas at all, except what the respect that Percy Borde taught us, of Africans having toward other Africans, and especially toward elders, I remember when-when we were there, there were a small group, and there was an older African lady, market lady carrying merchandise in her head. And he made all of us stop, because his elder in society needed to pass so we had to stop so she could go before. So, I think the respect that the Africans have for each other had, especially the women had a very big impact on my being able to see the world in a different light, that American culture was not the only thing which existed and our standards of behavior were certainly not-not the ordinary, although at that time, there was a greater respect for elders and there are now. The- this whole young people generation came about in the mid (19)60s, I would say, yeah, so it was not like I was brought up with it from early childhood- IG: 28:56 I see. JQ: 28:57 -onward. But I think I did not quite answer your questions. [crosstalk] IG: 28:59 I was, I was grasping at something I do not know, I- JQ: 29:05 Civil rights. IG: 29:06 -civil rights, civil rights. But you in part, answered this, because you saw that there were a different, a different ways of being different ways of living outside of the United States. And maybe this is not the only viewpoint. I mean, it expanded your- it enlarged. It was an enlarging experience. So, but-but I do not, you know, I mean, did it make you feel more? I mean, were you involved in the Civil Rights movement at all? And did your experience in Africa kind of fuel your belief in the rightness of civil rights, you know in injustice and for African Americans you know, and making it more immediate. I do not I mean- JQ: 30:13 Okay. IG: 30:14 -my might have been something very different. JQ: 30:15 First of all, I was too young to have become actively involved in civil rights, because born in 1951, so it would have been, would have been born in the 1940s to have actively involved in it on a regular basis. So, I do not really know that I became actively involved in civil rights. When I was grad- during-during this time period, or when I was graduated. I think I was just; I-I did not know to become active. I think that that was a thing that I was thinking about this before your arrival--that Harpur College was extraordinary in the sense that it really broadened my perspective in a lot of ways that had never occurred to me before. I found the students at Far Rockaway High School. And we were all from Rockaway, pretty much the same. And I did not find that the conversations were enlightening or interesting at all, until I went to New York City Community College, where students were way ahead of my thinking in terms of just realizing things and understanding things. And then we talk and talk and talk. And then I could- my mind started to expand then. And it expanded a lot more, I think, at Harpur, and I was not ever involved politically, which I think is-is important, the reason I am having difficulty with your question. But at Harpur, in the student union, especially during lunch break, there were students who set up tables about various things, which they were particularly interested in. So, they were tables, and they were people who were belong to- who were communists and socialists. Capitalists did not need a table because most people were capitalist anyhow. So that would not be a new, new kind of conversation. People evolved in the women's movement, just the beginnings of gay and lesbian stuff, especially in dance classes and dance clubs, which I belong to there--not-not modern dance, not-not- IG: 30:55 Right. Interesting, yeah. JQ: 32:25 -different kinds of food and what I was, I was used to--American food, but I just, I never experienced it. So, I think that was my enlightenment. Not-not, so it was some of everything all at once. But it was not particularly civil rights. For example, there was, there was a male student who had been in Attica prison before in the 1960s, before my arrival, so like when the Attica riots occurred in 1970. He was then had a table of his own in the student center and handed out literature. So, I think the enlightenment came about all these things, which I had never thought about, because they just did not occur in Rockaway Beach, where I guess. IG: 33:09 I guess, you know, I would, you know, I, my assumption was that after having gone to Africa and seen the richness of this culture and the- you mentioned, you know, exposure to- to big intellectuals in, you know, academics, and then coming here and seeing how far we need to go, you know, to appreciate- that there was no question about, you know, how deserving African American people are, and-and after, after experiencing that, in Africa. I do not know what I am grasping toward, but it just, you know, because you see these people from a very different vantage point, you see their sort of ancestors and-and here, you know, the, the whole issue is the color of the skin, and you see people here and there, you know, who are accomplished and you know, it just like it becomes you know, I would think that you would, you know, that conclusion that you would draw eyes, what is the whole problem about, you know, why are we struggling? Why-why-why did this happen in the first place, you know, and- does that make sense? I think I took it as a given. That is a given. That is a given. JQ: 34:39 Right, given because not well- not only does this just make sense, because it is just obvious, very logical. You do not think I needed to realize that [crosstalk] save a copy, for example, in I also did take a course my last semester at Harpur College, Afro American history since 1877--1877 being a cut off with the Reconstruction. So, I wound up doing a term paper about the founding of the of the NAACP, and the Jewish involvement in those early years. IG: 35:26 I understand. I understand. JQ: 35:28 I think it-it was just so obvious to me what the solution is that I do not think it required-required [crosstalk] realization. IG: 35:37 I just remember the United States or I remember even New York, I am, I am a little bit younger than you were. But I remember a very different New York, and that there were racial divides and racial tensions. And so that is, you know, that-that is what I was exposed to. That is what I that is the New York, even the New York, the progressive New York that I grew up in. Um, so- JQ: 36:10 So, New York was difficult at the time when I was graduated in 1973. New York was a real problem to live in. I lived in Rockaway Beach. So, it was I worked at the American Museum of Natural History for four years right after graduation. So, it would take me between an hour and a quarter an hour and a half to get to work. But Rockway had become very dangerous. IG: 36:35 Yeah. JQ: 36:36 So, there was a policeman literally on every train, I had a self-imposed curfew of leaving Manhattan, no later than nine o'clock at night, or I would not get home and live. My father had to meet me at the subway station, my mother had to leave, he had to leave work early. My mother had he picked up my mother from her library job and in Far Rockaway. And then you would have to pick me up from the subway station because I could not walk those four blocks home without getting attacked, which I was with my mother once and then by myself once or at a friend's house in Brooklyn, or stay with my brother overnight. So, New York was-was very difficult at the time. So, I think I was just trying to keep alive, not worry about the civil rights movement, because- IG: 37:23 I understand I understand. JQ: 37:25 -it was just, really difficult. IG: 37:25 You know, I was- JQ: 37:26 Really difficult. IG: 37:27 Yeah. So, you know, you-you have this splendid education at Harpur College. You know, what, and you-you gave us a sense of the, actually the politicized and very intellectualized environment just by describing the cafeteria, and, you know, the-the different political groups that would form around tables. Was the Vietnam War, you know, how-how, you know, how dominant a topic, but was it in your life and in your circles at the time? JQ: 38:21 I recall one of the students who was worried about graduating 1973, because he was not going to be allowed himself to be drafted. So, and he did not want to run, a run up to Canada either. So, he knew that when he was graduated, no longer have a student deferment. And was drafted, he was just going to go to prison, and spend a year or two in prison just doing really donkey work there. So, I think that we were all very much concerned about Vietnam. But there were not a lot of as I recall, there were not a lot of protests about Vietnam there either. There was more involvement in abortion rights for women, and in the women's movement, from my recollection than-than Vietnam. I guess because the students, maybe because by the time (19)72-(19)73, rolled around, things look like there was going like, there was going to be a final an end to the war, which still took a couple of years, but perhaps because especially with the men, they maybe they felt that they were not going to be drafted, or they had this protection that I do not really recall a lot of demonstrations about that. I do recall a bus going to Washington DC to protest about women's rights. That would have been maybe (19)72 or so. (19)71-(19)72. IG: 39:53 So how was the women's-women's rights movement? Come How did it come into your consciousness? You know, how did it how did it- how did you begin to think about it? I mean, what-what were the first signs? You know, how did you perceive it at the time? What- how did you recognize that it was emerging as a movement? And how did you respond to it? I remember, you know, from a later time, the appearance of the book Our Bodies, Ourselves, and that, to me was kind of a symbol of the movement. JQ: 40:35 I remember the book Yeah. I was not a very politically active person. IG: 40:41 Yeah. JQ: 40:41 But other women and men students that that I knew were. So, I think I got the inklings and the-the thrust of all this from them, even though I did not participate actively myself. And I remember one of the, one of the other dancers turned out to be lesbian, although I do not think that she actually discussed that. So, she was involved in the women's movement from a different point of view. Not from the-the what the expected one. But I think there was more concerned about abortion. That is what I recollect. I said there was. And then I remember, one young student [inaudible] was explaining to a woman student, what abortion is, and the mechanics of all this stuff, and how all that it says, remove the DNC, something like that, I certainly did not know. So, this young fella knew it. So, my parents were not political, my two brothers really are not. So, I did not have politics, in my family, and in my blood, so to speak. So, I think I was a little bit on the periphery of that. I think I was involved in other activities at Harpur College. And that, really, the politics. And the American Indian Movement started around that same time a little bit later, though. But I do not think we had any American Indian students at the time. So that was not direct, as it was for the Attica prisoner, which was quite immediate and left a big impression on me. IG: 42:18 Why-why did it impress you, The Attica? JQ: 42:23 Because it was not just something that they were flyers about, or something in a paper, it was immediate, because one of our students was a former prisoner. So, he would present he would give us presentations and talk to us and, and present flyers, but it was more of a personal nature. So that was very impressive. IG: 42:43 I see. I see. I see. JQ: 42:45 So again, this was something which, just like I was saying, at Far Rockaway High School, I did not think about any of these things. But when-when you are confronted with a [crosstalk], then it becomes immediate, and then you understand the implications of it. IG: 42:59 Understand. JQ: 43:01 We were involved in other things at Harpur, which I knew nothing about. So that left a big impression on me. For example, when I grew up in Rockaway Beach, food was very simple and very much the same. If you wanted to buy tomatoes, for example, they were three little pinkish tomatoes in a piece of cardboard, thin cardboard, couple of cellophane, all the same size, they all were made to fit in that little thing. So, my only knowledge of food was iceberg lettuce, and these pinkish horrible tomatoes, and white bread, and maybe whole wheat bread. And a few other such things like that oatmeal. So, when I got to Harpur, there were so many students who were involved in, in cooking and protesting about other things, for example, in- I think, was 1970, or (19)71, there was the strike of the people who were picking the iceberg lettuce in California, as well as the grapes. So, we students said, “We are not eating that stuff.” So, you cannot serve it to us. And of course, the administration obliges them did not serve us that those kinds of things, students actually had quite a bit of power, which I was very proud of, not that I was instrumental in this, but I had never known that anybody could have power, let alone students gives the big administration. So, I learned about politics through direct action that way, so to speak, not celebrates but-but-but things that were more immediate and affected us on a daily basis. And then in terms of food, there were many kinds of diets which people students could enjoy at Harpur College, there was the-the kosher kitchen, there was a macrobiotic diet, which was all new to me. IG: 44:52 Oh, that is right. JQ: 44:53 There was healthful living. So, to my way of thinking, people who lived in the (19)60s and early (19)70s were split into two groups. You can either take the druggie kinds of things in the drop out kind of hippie type of thing. Or you can chop or you could choose the hippie kind of thing, but live healthfully. So, I chose the latter. IG: 45:15 Well, maybe-maybe, you know, the-the latter, the latter group is kind of the defectors from the druggie crowd because you know, a lot of the macrobiotic adherence were former druggies from-from you know, my knowledge and they came to macrobiotics as a way to get clean. But you know that that is not that is not your experience. But- JQ: 45:48 Right. I do not know if it Harpur College because the students would have been 18-19-20. So, I do not know if their background was-was drug related, or if they just selected because they had the opportunity to improve their diet yet, which would have been my own background. Since- IG: 46:09 Yeah. JQ: 46:09 -grains and non-meat things. IG: 46:13 Yeah-yeah-yeah. JQ: 46:13 And the whole wheat stuff was not anything I had ever known about. IG: 46:18 Right-right. JQ: 46:19 So that was rather enlightening to me. IG: 46:21 Yeah. JQ: 46:22 And be able- being able to have an input with the administration was also rather amazing to me. One of the things I found extraordinary at Harpur, which I am very proud about is that we students actually had a great amount of respect given to us by the administration, and the various academic departments, which enabled us to create courses and even majors, for example, my roommate wanted to- she was one year older than I, she wanted to have a Hebrew-Hebrew studies major. So, she actually put together courses and professors and created a major for herself, which she was the only one, the only Hebrew studies major at the school. So, the only one to have done this, the first one. Now, one could get a Hebrew studies major, but she was able to create this for herself. I actually created- That is remarkable. -two-two courses--one was in ceramics. And the other was in Hermann-Hermann Hesse as literature, I have actually found a professor who was one of my English professors. And I put together a course, years later I- IG: 47:34 How did you interest this professor to teach exclusively Hermann Hesse class and how did that come into being? How did you, you know, because I mean, administration is, you know, I could imagine so many roadblocks to getting a course approved, it takes forever. JQ: 47:51 I think he must have taught a course in Mark Twain or something, some-some individual writers’ course before I met him. I remember we read Benjamin Franklin's autobiography, which from an academic perspective, and also Huckleberry Finn, with him and he said he was a great academician. I think he was just accustomed to looking at by biographies or single authors who had written a body of work and being able to teach it. And Hermann Hesse was pretty popular in the 1960s, early (19)70s. So, I do not recall any difficulty I just asked him when he said, "Okay." IG: 48:34 Okay. JQ: 48:37 And we did it up. [laughs] IG: 48:39 And so-so it was offered as a Hermann Hesse class. JQ: 48:43 Yes. Yes. IG: 48:44 So, there must have been very little red tape, you know, to get this course approved. You know, he just declared it a course. And it became a course. JQ: 48:54 Yes. Yes. [crosstalk] IG: 48:54 Is that the way that it worked? JQ: 48:55 That is my recollection, I do not recall having any red tape really to form--there have been a ceramics course before, but then it was dropped for a number of years. I reintroduced it and it was just do it. That is the Herman-Herman has course I just remember asking the professor and he said, "Alright." IG: 49:13 Did you put together now a syllabi? JQ: 49:15 I-I- no. That was- he had done that, then I realized that he was such an advanced professor, he was beyond my ability to be a good student in his- a great students in his course. I was like getting a B or C when I had always gotten the A's and literature in English. So, I realized I was just not an advanced enough student for him. IG: 49:40 Yeah. JQ: 49:41 So even though I-I created the course I wound up not taking it with him. I did take the ceramics course however. So, we were taught it was not just like a junior high school kind of shop class. We were actually taught a lot of techniques and it could be could pertain- related to-to archaeology with ceramics that way. IG: 50:00 And-and in different parts of the world, does it? JQ: 50:05 No, it was recently a hand on doing it. So, we learned that [crosstalk]. Years later, I spoke to a colleague at- archivist colleague, who worked for many years at Columbia University, this world-renowned university, she had worked there for years and never ever heard in the history of Columbia University, a student was putting together a major or a course. And something was just, we just do it at. It is just-just one of the things that we can do. When I first got there the first semester, so we students, and I was not the originator of this idea, but I certainly participated in it fully. We created a store--we got- we had somebody else had gotten the-the storefront, and we actually cleaned everything out painted it decorated it, created I remember- I used to make change purses and sell them for $1 or something dollar 25. I think I got I made 25 cents profit on it. So, we-we just quick created a store by- for and administered by [crosstalk]. I was as I was not the originator. I did not need to do any of the background work. But I do not I am sure that the administration would have supported it. If-if we had a number of students had also put together an ambulance program, not I- but I guess because of the drugs on campus. They actually put together an ambulance, which try to name [inaudible]. IG: 51:45 Yeah, I remember. It is- JQ: 51:47 It originated- IG: 51:48 -still exists. JQ: 51:49 It originated with us, right. And it still exists all these 50 years later or so. IG: 51:53 That is, that is, that is great that you know, someone was as respectful of-of your creativity of your ideas and supported you and help you implement these. How did that do you think that confidence in students- how do you think that that affected you in? JQ: 52:18 Well, I did want to add one thing before I tell you about that. We- there was a new dormitory at SUNY Binghamton called College in the Woods, which was built in about 1972. And they were- the administration initially was going to cut down more trees than we felt was necessary in order to build the dormitory buildings. So, we had one or two little protests, not anything, aggressive, or major. So, we request the administration not chop down as many trees as they did not, they chopped down only the number of trees that they needed to-to construct the buildings and to build the sidewalks. So, we got what we wanted to do. So, I think the way it affected me and I think this also took many years, including my work at the Schomburg Center, when one of my best friends was a communist from Haiti. And everybody endured the man. So, I think I learned a lot about activism from him. So, I, other people consider me an activist these days, I just consider myself just doing what I need to do to help improve society. So, I think having seen that students have a good deal of power. And I did not know anything about power, not power, because I was just a little protected kid from Rockaway that I realized that we could accomplish things, either individually, or as groups did not need to be violent, really, I did not see- they were very few demonstrations. as I recollect at Harpur College, politically. I was not there in May of 19, May of 1970. During the May activities--I was at my other-other college. And indeed, we did not attend class that day. But often, even though we had many students from New York City, who were very bright, it was a not a place where there were lots of demonstrations. So, I think somehow that the administration, I did not know any of the administrators did have a lot of respect for us. And that the ideas were good, solid, not-not negative ideas. They just went along with it also was a new school. I maybe that had something to do with it, that it was founded in the late 1950s. So, there was not a long history of having some kind of tradition or doing things in only one way and having the-the administration be very powerful. And the students, no doubt starting in the mid-1960s, were more active, that would have been the first time they would have been active. So, I think the administration just went along with us because the ideas were positive. And then it took me personally a number of years because I went to graduate school and did other things. It took me a number of years, until the 1990s, when I started to do things as well, not knowing that the ideas probably stemmed from Harpur College, because I had a colleague at the Schomburg Center who was very active politically. So, I think he kind of taught me how I could do things and make-make an impact. So, I am always are quite frequently at my local council men's office with an idea that I would like to see implemented, and some of them, to some extent, have been implemented, as just I do not know, the legislative process very well. So, people- other people have said, "Oh, Janice, you are a political activist. You just do not-do not recognize that in yourself." IG: 54:08 Right. JQ: 56:07 But I think it probably did come down that from Harpur, I think, I have been saying this for years, that the Harpur students were absolutely extraordinary, that they were the most selfless group of people I have ever met, that they had real, higher aspirations, to make a better society. And I think this was many students, not just a few of them. So, I think that was a real pattern, which I was able to follow in my own life and say, "Oh, that comes from Harpur," I could see it. I have a friend who is a Harpur student, who now lives in California, a musician. And I have said, "Boy, those Harpur students were just so amazing, they did this and this and this." So, I think, happily, that, not being able to compare it to just what I believe that Harpur students were better than other students in the sense of, of really trying to make a positive impact in the world. Even at years after they graduated, without going through the negativity of alienating their parents and-and doing a lot of things which would have been problematic in society the time for a young person or-or for the parents. So, I think Harpur students were just wonderful. I applaud for them. [laughs] IG: 56:07 Right-right. That is wonderful. I-I, you know, I think that is such a gift that you have been, that you had been given in really being given sort of a, a wide berth to express herself and to be taken seriously, because I think the, you know, the hardest thing for a young person as they are, you know, becoming an adult and is to have the-the courage of their convictions is to believe in you know, and what-what they are and, and here, you are actually encouraged to become that, JQ: 58:08 And also, by the professors. IG: 58:11 Yeah, of course, by the professors by the administration. That is wonderful. JQ: 58:15 Yeah. IG: 58:17 So just give us a- you know, an overview of your, you know, your career trajectory. JQ: 58:26 As mentioned, I was graduated in 1973. Something I do want to add, which was, which is a negative is that I majored in anthropology, just because I love that there was no other reason for it. But as-as I was due to graduate, I entered the office of the chair of the department, Dr. Horowitz [Michael Horowitz]--I do not recall his first name Horowitz. And I asked him his advice. "What do you think I could do with an anthropology degree? What kind of job shall I get? Now that I am graduating going back to New York City." He said, "Well, you always pump gas." And that is all he said. He offered nothing for me at all. I do not think anybody could get away with that these days, actually. IG: 59:14 No-no. JQ: 59:15 But it was, it was early 1970s. And I did not have- I had ideas but not a specific goal or how to achieve these. So, I went the route of applying for a job as a secretary. "Can you type?" repeatedly I cannot tell you how many hundreds of times I was asked about that. My first job actually was working in the world for World Trade Center building number one in 1973. Working for Japanese import export firm. I then was able to get a job again as a secretary, working at South Street Seaport Museum because by then I figured out I would like to work in a museum. And then I was very happy to have worked for four years at the American Museum of Natural History, which had nothing to do with my secretarial skills because I applied for several secretarial jobs. But the-the personnel woman who I still remember name Mrs. Lazada, from the Philippines was so taken with the fact that I really wanted to work the museum, I think I must have applied for three jobs there. And I wound up working for the Department of vertebrate paleontology. So that was my geology background came into use there for four years, and I had two fantastic curators so I was able to do a lot of things besides just working for- just typing manuscripts and letters, which are fascinating in the- in it in and of themselves. But I was able to work with a lot, a lot with the fossils, with moving cleaning and moving the Macedon bones and sorting the-the fossil mammals from Australia. And- IG: 1:00:54 Yeah, I love them- [crosstalk] So interesting. Yeah. JQ: 1:00:55 -how it helped me to go to use a caliper to measure them and be ascribed with my curator would give me the measurements and I got to know people from all the different scientific departments and a library. I decided I would like to work in a museum professionally. So, I left not quite happily, after four years. So, this was in 1977 and went to New York University where Owen Lynch was my friend and protector. It was a very difficult school because of the head of anthropology department at the time, just the opposite of-of Harpur college. I was graduated in 1980, with a master's in Anthropology and certification Museum Studies. Unfortunately, my- President Reagan had come into power at the time, even though he came from a cultural background being an actor. He did not care about the culturals. So, we cut- he slashed them financially. So, I wound up learning how to do archival work at a small museum on Staten Island, Staten Island, Staten Island Institute of Arts and Sciences. So, I learned how to become an archivist there. And even that he slashed by three months, that was a CETA program, a CETA training program, CETA and then I got to know people in the field, even though I had never heard of archives before I became one. So, I had to work in a number of research libraries in psychology work for John Jay College of Criminal Justice in its archives and a special program, the municipal archives here in New York City, New York Hospital Corner Medical Center. Psychology- IG: 1:01:03 Which did you enjoy? JQ: 1:01:15 And also, something called the historic documents inventory. Well, I love working on Staten Island still my favorite borough, I have never lived there. But I was just enamored of my colleagues and their-their great passion for Staten Island. And I was so enamored of archival work that I did not even know when it was time to go home, I did not know was time to eat lunch, I was just looking at learning from the documents. I worked for Cornell University, but here in New York City, on a statewide project, to survey all the repositories open to the public. All across, it was actually in every county of New York See, I worked in the New York City phase of the project. So, I worked at probably different probably around 200 depositories of all types here in New York City museums, historic societies, just neat places. And then I worked then I got a phone call from the curator at the Schomburg Center for Research in Black culture in Harlem to ask me if I would work for her. IG: 1:03:40 How did it- how do they know of you? JQ: 1:03:42 Because I had sur-survey those archives [crosstalk] archives as well, because of my interest in Black Studies. IG: 1:03:48 I see, I see. JQ: 1:03:49 We all had it. There were five of us work working simultaneously in New York City. So, we had a choice of where we wanted to work. So, some people like banks and corporations, whatnot. I liked all the interesting ethnic place in museums. IG: 1:04:02 Right-right. JQ: 1:04:03 So, I worked at the Schomburg Center on this project for about four weeks or so. So, the curator in the archives department got to know me and then called me to ask about work for which I did. So, I spent that time I had two babies and could not afford to pay a babysitter for two, for two children. So, I worked the Schomburg Center from 1990 to 19- until I retired in 2014. Five years ago, three days a week. So, I worked there on hundreds of collections. When I went to the Schomburg Center a couple of months ago, probably in January or so there was an all-new staff in the archives. So, I never met them, but they all knew my name because my name was on hundreds of collections when I go to other repositories on Staten Island or-or have a history of psychiatry archive in New York Hospital Cornell Medical Center. So, Staff never saw me but they know my name because my name is-is on hundreds of collections there as well. So- IG: 1:05:07 That is wonderful. JQ: 1:05:07 I feel very proud of [crosstalk]- IG: 1:05:09 -your imprint. JQ: 1:05:11 I feel very proud that I, I believe that I have put here on earth to continue people's research to make-make research repositories available to increase human knowledge. So, I-I feel that I was able to do this through my archival work, because those collections are organized for all time process is what we call it for all time. And the reports, the finding aids are there to help researchers. So they are, they are a permanent contribution in many different repositories across the city. And I still continue to donate research-research materials to various libraries, I was just contributing a photo manual 50 years old to a photo photographic archive in Midtown yesterday. And I have got a number of other books and other photo, postcards and other-other research things lined up to me to deliver the next couple of weeks or so. IG: 1:06:16 What was, what was, you know, the most interesting involving archive, I know that it is an impossible question. JQ: 1:06:28 I love being on Staten Island. Because everything was brand new to me, all I knew was that there was a ferry and there was a bridge. So, I really loved being immersed in Staten Island history and natural history and learning about the bird count and seeing the journals of the founders from the repository from the 1870s. And learning to read the 19th century handwriting becoming- become quite adept at that just enchanted me. I loved working at the American Museum of Natural History, and then have the opportunity to return some years later. And being the only person who was trusted by the librarians there, as well as all the curators and all the scientific departments. So, they showed me their collect- their archival collections allowed me to write them up to me was really extraordinary. So mineral science, mammalogy and the paleontological collections, anthropology, so many collections took me three months, just to work up the descriptions in that one repository. And now that one repository has a guide of many hundreds of pages, which I completely organized myself. So, I am very proud of that. And I am glad to also be able to, even though I did not know I was going to end up doing this still five years after my retirement, I am still gathering material and-and I have contributed to almost 30 repositories, New York City, donating books in our current material to these various places. So, to me, that is a gift, so that I hope that I will leave the world in a better place of when the way I found it, which is what I think the whole legacy of people who attend or as children attended a wonderful campus my children did in Lake Placid or at Harpur College, that I think those fantastic students really were very serious about wanting to leave the world a better place. And Harpur College, I think, have made students have made tremendous contributions to the world. IG: 1:08:38 I think so too, I think so from-from those students that I have spoken to certainly, I think we are wrapping up and this fascinating interview. And what I would like to ask as sort of a concluding question is, what-what do you think- what lessons? What were the most important lessons from this period in your life and that you would like to impart to the- you know, the young people who may be listening to this tape, and what do you- what advice do you have to give to them, that has helped you succeed in your, in your chosen profession and in your life? JQ: 1:09:33 I think I can answer that. answer that in two ways. One is that, especially for liberal arts students, as so many of us were in the 1960s-1970s. We or at least I was able to benefit from Harpur from being a student at Harpur College, because I was, I allowed myself to be exposed in the classroom with adequate classroom in many things, which I never thought about before, or never done before, for example, I took modern dance, modern dance, I belong to the modern dance club. So, we performed at Harpur College and also for a school in Binghamton. So, I have never heard of jazz music before a lot of these things. So, I think to be able to, and I was just actually advising a young woman who just started Stony Brook University last semester about the same kind of thing that if you could just expand your mind, which is a very 1960s Psychedelic term, but one can use it in this way, as well. To allow yourself to take courses and think about things and speak to people about things which you never thought about before. And try not to associate only with the students, some of my fond memories are becoming friends with a man who was twice my age at the time who I worked for, in maintenance. So, I became friends with him and his wife off campus and invited me to their home, which was enchanting, because I probably get a little bit tired of seeing everybody who's exactly your age, that I became friends with a family who lived in the city of Binghamton, and they took me to their house and took me hiking with their children. So, it was very enchanting. So, I think that is important to maintain a perspective of not just everybody who is 21 as you are. But also, to try to take what you have learned at Harpur. And I think Harpur is a great place to be able to do and I hope it still is, of being able to implement programs does not have to be a course or a major, just doing something for somebody else, or something else or another country, which is a lot easier to do now than when I was at school when there were fewer international students. And then being able to take those that the lessons learned, learned there, how to do things, and bring it back to your own home and community and try to do things which will benefit a greater number of people or the earth. I mean, we had to Earth Day 1970. So, I was luckily, [inaudible] I was not there for that it started a few months before I- my arrival. To me, the most important thing that we should accomplish these days is taking care of the earth. There will always be people. IG: 1:12:35 Yeah. JQ: 1:12:37 If there are more or fewer people will still always have people, we have got only one Earth. So, to me, the most important thing that we should do is take care of, care of the earth in the best way possible. And get involved in ecological studies and efforts as best as possible. And take lessons from the elders of our native peoples in this hemisphere, not necessarily just in this country, because we have got native peoples all the way from tip of North America all the way to the southern part of South America- IG: 1:13:13 Yeah. JQ: 1:13:14 -Patagonia. So, I think we should take the lessons of-of being stewards of the earth, and doing everything we possibly can to embrace the earth not just in a scientific environmental way, which is really an environmental kind of almost like a non-passionate way or satire scientifically. But I feel that we need to embrace the earth. And it is lovely, and we should love it. And more of a poetic sense, not just in a scientific sense. And I think if we keep that kind of thing in mind, then we will make the right decisions. IG: 1:13:52 Thank you for a beautiful interview. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Janice Quinter Subject The topic of the resource Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Quinter, Janice ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Janice (Ebenstein) Quinter attended Harpur College from 1970-1973 and graduated with a Bachelors in Anthropology and a minor in Afro-American Studies. After working at the American Museum of Natural History she was awarded a Master's degree in Anthropology and Certificate in Museum Studies from New York University in 1980. She spent her career as an archivist in research repositories in every borough in New York City, including 24 years at the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture at the New York Public Library. Janice is happy to have contributed to increasing human knowledge about many areas of study. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Janice Quinter_1.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 73:58 minutes IIIF Item Metadata UUID 3ea0219e-b400-4e4d-b678-101e9a3b750e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3d78660e106c158e4677b1335904c681.mp3 a1c66cda7c27cb68c746094311a883d8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c3fec555f5ee8721334015f122f43b07.jpeg ceb7ee983e3d97f9e7de2dee15cb7031 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-11-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jesse Masyr Year of Graduation 1971 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Partner at Fox Rothschild in New York. He specializes in real estate law and is responsible for bringing legislation that permitted sidewalk cafes to Manhattan. Prior to joining the firm, Jesse was the founder of the Land Use Department and a named partner in the law firm of Wachtel Masyr & Missry LLP. He also previously served as Deputy Borough President of Manhattan, where for five years he represented the Borough President on the Board of Estimate. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Jesse Masyr Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 16 November 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) JM: 00:03 My name is Jesse Masyr. We are currently in my law firm in midtown Manhattan at 101 Park Avenue, and apparently, we are going to attempt to extract, well, the memories I have left. IG: 00:20 Very good. And so, you graduated- JM: 00:24 I graduated in 1971, and I enrolled in 1967 so I was in the four-year program. IG: 00:34 So, tell us a little bit about your growing up. So where did you grow up? JM: 00:41 I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. I was born in Brooklyn. I grew up in Brooklyn, and it was actually my intention to be educated in Brooklyn, but my parents felt strongly otherwise, and that is how I sort of wind up at Harpur College. Was not my desire. I really wanted to go to school in New York City at the time. To me, everybody I knew was going either to Brooklyn College or to Queens College and but my parents felt that my parents are first generation Americans, and they were sort of very liberal, but they were but they had come about, and the McCarthy era had really scarred them in a sense that they thought my radicalization at that time would somehow go on my permanent record, and I would, I was, I was involved in 1965 particularly with something called the New York City's high school Students for peace. And they thought that that would put an anvil around me. So, my father said to me, "No, you are not going to school in New York." And so that is that is why, to me, SUNY was an inferior brand to CUNY, and not knowing anything about SUNY, had helped out to make that judgment, by the way, and that that is how I wind up in Binghamton, because I did not want to go there. IG: 02:05 So, there was an element of fear ruling your- JM: 02:10 Yeah, my parents, my parents really felt that, you know that it would be go on my record, and at some time later on, when I was looking to join the professional ranks of the world, somebody will remember the hardest it is to imagine that in 1965 I was part of a number of peace demonstrations and walk outs and demonstrations against the Marines, all kinds of embarrassing things that I did as a youth. IG: 02:35 Where did you go to high school? JM: 02:39 Lafayette High School, which does not exist anymore. They closed it because it was, it was a substandard school when I went to it, and it got worse as the years went on. IG: 02:55 What were your-your parent’s expectations? JM: 02:59 Very simple. The you-you had you had a choice. Growing up in my family, you could become a doctor or a lawyer, and I failed at becoming a doctor, and therefore I defaulted in becoming a lawyer. My brother was successful. IG: 03:14 He is a doctor. JM: 03:16 Well, I do not think so. He is an oral surgeon, so they never counted to me, but, but he did go to Columbia Physicians and Surgeons for his dental degree. So that was winning. The odd thing is, my brother's five years older than I am, and he was still living at home, going to at that time, he was actually going to pharmacy school before he went to dental school, it was okay for him to go to school in New York because he was never political. Had no interest in anything of that nature, and so I did, and my parents said, you are out. So, it was weird that my brother was still there. But I have often said "My brother was an only child." IG: 03:52 [laughs] So they-they had the idea of Harpur College or? JM: 04:02 No, they- IG: 04:03 How did you come upon? JM: 04:04 Well, because my parents, I was in a lower middle-class family, so I was not going to be able to go to a private school. And so, the other thing to me was, was just state school, and I did all the research myself. So, it to me, it was the choices, not doing a lot of research, was either I was going to go to either Stony Brook, Albany or Binghamton. Buffalo, I never would have considered because it is in another country, as far as I could tell, and I did not want to go to Stony Brook. It was Long Island, and I had enough experience with kids from Long Island not realizing they were all going to Harpur. When I got to Harpur, I had complete culture shock, because I thought Binghamton, I would be meeting people, basically, who were more intimate with cows than anything else. And then I realized it was a New York City Long Island School. IG: 04:05 Yes. JM: 04:07 Although nobody from my high school went there, but virtually no one from my high school went to college. So, it was not the real issue. IG: 05:08 So, what was the reputation? You really did not have too much to go on if you thought it was a cow school. JM: 05:15 Yeah, I thought it was a cow school. I really did. IG: 05:17 So-so when you arrived. And so did you have an idea that you would want to be a lawyer when you- JM: 05:24 No-no, I know- no, because there really was not- the lawyer was sort of the failure. You were going to be a doctor because I was Jewish and that there was no other alternative, you know, that, or a rabbi. And I had gotten that. That had passed when I was 13. I did not do that anymore, and so I took two years of science. I was a science major my first two years, and by the end of my second year, I think I was on academic suspension or threatening suspension. I was I was a failure in science. I was complete, and I changed majors and graduated with a history degree and a GPA low well enough to get me into law school. I basically aced the last two years, but the last two years, it is interesting that you mentioned, it is 1970 1971 and there was a lot of disruption in the school at that point. 1970 in the spring semester, is Kent State. And the school shut down. And then in 19- in my senior year, I was involved in something called the college volunteer program to combat drug abuse, and was a founder of something I do not know if it still exists at Binghamton, called High Hopes, which was which was a drug. It was a crash pad, as far as I can tell. But at that in 1970 before he went totally [inaudible] crazy, Nelson Rockefeller was going to cure everybody before he decided in 1971 to put everybody in jail forever. And so, he funded something called the college volunteer program to combat drug abuse, and funded each of the universities, and I became one of the initial directors and founders, of which we named High Hope sarcastically, and set up the drug clinic, and then spent my life that my senior year, going around Broome County talking about the evils of drugs, which was about as ironic and sarcastic. IG: 07:33 So, what was this program? What did it promote? Was it abstinence? JM: 07:39 No-no-no, we drugs were still good then. IG: 07:44 Yeah. JM: 07:44 I mean, and it was really about people having bad LSD trips. IG: 07:50 Right. JM: 07:50 And so, we were behind. I do not even know if these structures, I have been back to school. Four years ago, there was a post office building near Student Center, and the back of that was given to us as basically a place where people were having a problem with the drugs, they took that we could sort of walk them through that and calm them down. IG: 08:13 So, you, but you, it was not like a methadone [crosstalk] JM: 08:16 No-no-no-no. We did not. We did not. That was not really- IG: 08:20 Medicinal. JM: 08:21 -a real problem that was, you know, in 1970 it was more about people taking Angel Dust and people taking LSD and then going, it was hard to get mushrooms, very hard. We could talk about that. It was always rumored that somebody had them. But it never was. They always had LSD, because it was very available, because the it was a real, able source near Binghamton for LSD, which was Cornell. Cornell graduate chemistry students were in the manufacturing business in the (19)70s, (19)60s and (19)70s. IG: 08:59 I am awestruck. That is related. JM: 09:05 That is why I made the reference to you better [crosstalk] yes. IG: 09:08 So- JM: 09:11 That is why there is such a great, famous, Grateful Dead concert that occurs- JM: 09:15 Yes JM: 09:16 -at Binghamton at that point. JM: 09:17 Yeah- IG: 09:17 In in 1968 or- IG: 09:17 Yeah, 1960 JM: 09:22 No. IG: 09:22 No? JM: 09:23 No. It was later. It was later. The famous Dick's picks concert, I think, is (19)70. IG: 09:30 I see. So, what was the apart from, you know, this kind of, I do not know. What was it, an anti-drug, drug culture, what were some of the topics of conversation among your friends and yourself? What-what did you I mean, apart from- JM: 09:57 Well, I mean- IG: 09:58 -the usual, you know, dating, what- JM: 10:00 Well- IG: 10:00 What are the political sort of you know- JM: 10:03 There was that huge cloud hanging over all of us, because all of us were now living under the yoke of that that our student deferments from the draft would expire upon graduation and going to graduate school, with the exception of going to medical school, you would lose your exemption. And so, the Vietnam War was hung over most of discussions, because it was not, it was not popular, as they make the hope that does not come as too much of a surprise. And so, remember this Kent State, so I was very political at the time. I do not think the school was very political. IG: 10:46 Really? JM: 10:47 I did not sense that. I mean, there were a lot of people there who were what I would call straight and were not involved in that, were not involved in the drug culture not involved in the anti-war movement at all. Kent State, I thought was-was surprising that galvanized the students to strike, although, if history, if I remember, by the time the students decided to strike, the faculty had already shut the school in protest. So, the faculty was probably more radical than the student body was. IG: 11:24 What you know- JM: 11:28 And (19)68 remember also is the year that a lot of us went and worked for Gene McCarthy. IG: 11:34 I did not know that. JM: 11:35 Yes, and it was to my parents love and joy. I actually cut off my hair in the famous go clean for Gene movement. IG: 11:47 That must have pleased them. JM: 11:49 Momentarily. IG: 11:50 Momentarily. How did you, I mean, how did you, you know, find that opportunity to work for Gene McCarthy? Is that something that I mean, you just said New Yorker, you probably- JM: 11:56 No-no. It was somebody on campus who was, who I remember, I think, who I know is no longer alive, who was politically active and much more attuned to being anti-war, and it was really an anti-Lyndon Johnson sentiment more than anything else, and enlisted a lot of us as volunteers to go work for Gene McCarthy. And I do remember the great celebration the night that Lyndon Johnson announced he was not running for reelection. It was an instant partner. IG: 12:40 Right. So, I mean, what was your platform? I mean, what was a platform that you supported essentially anti-war and- JM: 12:49 Not sending me to Vietnam? was my platform. I mean, I was, it was one of complete self-interest. IG: 12:57 But do you think that there was sort of, you know, pervasive era of anxiety that many of the male students experienced. JM: 13:09 I think there was, for a lot of reasons, there was anxiety. I think there was a feeling that the youth, our youth, was seen as threatening to social structure, that lot of people saw us as an enemy, in essence, disrespectful, disruptive. And I do remember—it is funny what memories you have, and maybe they get manufactured. But I do remember when-when Kent State occurred walking through the Student Center, and the song that was blasting over and over and over again was Jefferson airplanes, Volunteers of America, and we are all outlaws in the eyes of America. And I think that was a feeling that a lot of us, I certainly had, that feeling that we were seen as disrupting the social fabric that our parents and had sort of instructed us to obey, and we were being disobedient, and the rallies and the anti-war movement, the demonstration in Washington against the Pentagon. I mean, I think those were seen as us versus them kind of events. IG: 14:35 So it was, you know, a rebellion against your parents, you know ideals or value expectations. JM: 14:45 Not so much their ideals, but their but their social structure, their standards. This is how you behave, and you do not stick your head up that much above the fence post, because you make it slap down. IG: 14:58 That is. Very much an immigrant mentality. JM: 15:02 No, I understand you remember, they are first generation, and they are from, they are Jewish, and everybody who did not come over got exterminated. And so, there is sort of that I understood that growing up, and I grew up in a hard to believe in Orthodox Jewish community, and I did not. I really perceived that being Jewish began with the Holocaust. There was no history before the Holocaust. That is all I heard about; all I was taught about it. It permeated everything, including expectations of what your future could be. IG: 15:40 Right, and that and that, you know, that probably felt at some point as a burden as well. JM: 15:48 No question about it. IG: 15:49 Um, so you know what was the new order that you were hoping to bring about? JM: 15:58 You are giving us way more credit than we would ever have deserved. I do not think there was that I least could not articulate at that time, and I do not remember anybody articulating to me an alternative solution, other than Lyndon Johnson should not be president. I do not think there was I certainly as I evolved later on. But I do not think there was an anti-Nixon feeling before. It was just got Lyndon Johnson out of office. He was killing us. He was doing this war that was just taking us away and slaughtering us. IG: 16:35 So, you just wanted to be kind of unshackled from these figures and from your parental, you know, expectations, but you did not really, I mean, you did not sort of, you know, see what a future would be like. JM: 16:56 Certainly, was not that skilled or motivated, [crosstalk] to have those expectations, I mean. And frankly, the last thing, if I was given a list of things to check off, the last thing I would have been able to check off that I was going to be a lawyer really caught me by surprise. IG: 17:18 Before we talk about that. Who were some of the faculty that made an impression on you? Was there anybody who really stood out in your memory and then kind of determined you to- JM: 17:37 I cannot say that. I do call one history professor that I thought was one of the most brilliant people I had ever met. His name, his name was Africa [Thomas W. Africa]. He was an ancient history professor. But that is really do not have much more recollection than that. IG: 17:57 So, you do not, you know, you do not remember that your academics kind of really opened your eyes to seeing the world in a different way. JM: 18:06 No. [crosstalk] It was purely the social I grew up in, this sort of Brooklyn essence came up there and was extremely liberated, because I was first time, I did not have parental control, and I was with other people who similarly felt that way. And so, it was clearly the socialization that that molded changed me more than the academics. No, plus the fact I was not really particularly great at academics or science, for sure. IG: 18:41 But you became great at academics. JM: 18:44 I became great at succeeding at academics. IG: 18:47 I see. JM: 18:47 I think, I think there is a difference. IG: 18:50 There is a difference, there is a difference. There is a difference. But so, have you kept in touch with any of your fellow students? JM: 19:03 Only by coincidence. IG: 19:04 By coincidence. JM: 19:05 Yeah, that we sort of met later on, did not keep did not keep continual touch, and then somehow, professionally or socially, “You went to Harpur?" "Yes-yes, yeah." Do not even remember them and being at Harpur at the time I was at Harpur. They were not in the social scene I was in. So, I do have friends that are from Harpur in the same time I was there, but they were not friends of mine when I was at Harpur. And those people that I am was friendly with, unfortunately, are not alive. I was very friendly, extremely friendly with a guy who-who unfortunately has the same answer, the same ending, to the people I was to the people I was closest to. Both died from drug related deaths. One, his name was Rick Juan, who unfortunately made the Today Show, because right after graduation, literally right after graduation, he got on a plane, went to Amsterdam, and within 24 hours, had died of an overdose of heroin. And then the other was. The name was Alan Goldstein, who became a doctor, a surgeon, but had a lifelong addiction problem, and ultimately died of liver disease that was created by his lifelong drug addiction. And he had he was a drug addict while he was a doctor, which shows you how brilliant he must have been. IG: 20:39 No, well, I mean, it is an addiction. It is a disease. JM: 20:43 Then he had had a terrible car accident one night after leaving the hospital, because he was drugged up and got-got really badly hurt. And I think that ultimately was the cause, the predicate cause, of his death. So, the two people I were closest to no longer alive. IG: 21:04 Do you think the drug use back then was different than you know, people knew less probably about addiction? JM: 21:20 I think, I think I had a pretty I think I had a pretty good- IG: 21:23 No? JM: 21:24 No. I think I had a pretty good idea of the level of drugs that were being used at the time I was going to school, and I do not recall the heavy, dangerous drugs being used. There was a lot of not marijuana, believe it or not, there was a lot of hash. I never really understood that, but it was a hash school, and there was a lot of hallucinogenic. There- people were not going around with lots of barbiturates or heroin. There always is heroin, but it was not prevalent. And to the extent that there were amphetamines, they were more obviously, more valuable around finals than at any other time. IG: 22:16 I assume that they are still JM: 22:18 And-and people those days remember, amphetamines where-where you could get them legally. So, everyone was stealing their mother's extra drill and, you know, bringing it up to school. But I did not perceive drugs at that time to be there were- no opiates were not prevalent. There was the beginning of the synthetic drugs that were coming on the-the Angel Dust, the MDA, which was fucking people up quite-quite much, but it was just beginning. It was not as prevalent. IG: 22:55 when you know, did people talk about Timothy Leary, yeah. Were you interested in that kind of mind, expensiveness-? JM: 23:05 Very-very much- IG: 23:07 -experience. JM: 23:08 Very much so in 1969. No, the summer of 1970--Alan and Rick and myself went cross country to go out to San Francisco, to track down Owsley, who was the great manufacturer of LSD out in San Francisco. So, yeah, it was something I was, I was interested in. I was, by nature, though, too much of a chicken to ever develop a drug problem, IG: 23:41 Right-right-right. Well, you know, that is, that is very interesting. So, you know, but you, you were not a hippie, and because you aspired to this very kind of establishment, and uh- JM: 24:00 I think I would have wanted to be, yeah, but I could not, because of the, you know, from the time I was five years old, yeah, there was either become a professional or-or you would have to be somehow, put on a boat, set a fire. IG: 24:14 Exactly. JM: 24:16 Yeah. So yeah, I would have loved to be hippie. IG: 24:18 Yeah. You would have loved to yeah too, yeah, because you did not drop out, you just kind of dabbled. JM: 24:24 Yeah. IG: 24:24 Yeah, it was- JM: 24:25 Yeah. IG: 24:26 -dabbled. So how do you think your classmates would remember you from that from the years at Harpur College? JM: 24:39 Annoying. IG: 24:41 How so? JM: 24:47 I just-just use my general reaction. I think I was a little bit pushy, perhaps manipulative. You know, I mean, I manipulated myself into this directorship of this drug clinic as a means. The real reason I became director of drug clinic is it gave me an opportunity to come back to school in August. And at that point, staying at home in my house was intolerable. It was literally intolerable. My parents took one look at me. You know, my hair, which fortunately I had then, as opposed to this thing. But then it grew this way. It did not go that way. I mean, I never got it to be long, but it would go out and out and out, and so that would just drive them crazy. And from an early age, I from the time I was 13 years old, I was living in Greenwich Village. The music had caught me. The folk music era of that time had captured me. IG: 25:48 Where did you listen to? Where did you go? JM: 25:52 I went to you had delicate balance in the village then, because you could only go to a place that did not serve alcohol, because you are underage, significantly underage. So, there was the Gaslight Cafe, which was on McDougall Street, but it was until later that was able to go to the bitter end. And the village van, the Village Gate, which is no longer there. I actually have helped redevelop it so it was there, and it was the cafe walk across the street where you could go to so I could listen to Tom Paxton. I saw Bob Dylan, and I got addicted to that. I mean, I to the point that my father, I think, rightfully, felt like he wanted to kill me. Because how many times can you play that thing over and over and over and over and over again. And so that music really was the changing point for my enlightenment, and listening to Phil Ochs. And then when I was in high school, on the high school paper, I actually my next-door neighbor was an accountant for a guy named Grossman, who was manager of Dylan, Peter, Paul, Mary, number other people. So, he got me interviews with-with performers, Eric Anderson, Philip and I wrote these up for my high school newspaper. So, these were, you know, idols to me, but I was, that is where I was spending all my time. So, my parent’s joke, just really, and my brother was, you know, listening to, you know, 45 rock and roll, and that had no interest to me whatsoever. IG: 27:37 Right. Well, they, were, you know, the really, the- these Balladeers were the voice of change, you know, and, and also of kind of building, not camaraderie. What is this word that I am looking for among the young people, right? They- JM: 28:02 I think it is camaraderie. I think it is a shared purpose, or shared ideal, I mean, and also, really what it was-was a rejection of the status quo. And, you know, the gray flannel road was not, was not the road that you had to take. And they were talking about an alternative, and I was completely hooked on that idea. IG: 28:28 But that alternative was artistic-artistic. It was liberal. It was- JM: 28:35 Yeah, it was liberal, it was political. It was rejecting the past, that the norms of the past are not necessarily in concrete and they do not have to be adhered to. And you can change things. You have that ability, and therefore you do not have to subscribe to, eventually, the life I live, but nonetheless, you have to subscribe to go off and find a job and find your place in society. That is the norm. I say that in all due respect, sitting here in a law firm that I am a major partner in. IG: 29:19 Right-right-right. JM: 29:21 Well, you know, there was a point in my life when I found that you could buy things with money, and so it became somewhat more important. IG: 29:25 So, did that? You know, when did that point come? JM: 29:30 After law school. IG: 29:31 After Where did you go to law school? JM: 29:35 I went to law school Tulane in New Orleans. And so, you may ask, why does a nice Jewish boy who was, who was dumb enough to go to school in Binghamton, where the sun never shines, go to where the sun, unfortunately never, not does not shine. And- IG: 29:51 Maybe that is the reason. JM: 29:52 No that was not the reason. I went to Tulane to avoid going to the army. It is you- it is a short story, and I will make it as short as possible. As you probably have researched and noticed there was a lottery system, and I had not a particularly good number in the lottery. In fact, in May, no before May, in April of my last year, I got my letter from Selective Service telling me that I was about to be reclassified and I was going to be drafted, and I will save you all the details, unless you want them. The reason I picked New Orleans is new the way the draft worked was that every draft board had a number of people that had to supply. If your number, was you had to take a simple example. You had to supply 100 people. If 100 people enlisted, nobody got drafted out of that draft board, “Okay,” so I had done extensive research on how I was not going to go to the to the army, and Louisiana had a process which was subsequently declared illegal, but fortunately not at the time that first time, felony offenders in New Orleans were given the choice of enjoying the hospitality of the Louisiana penal system or enlisting. So, by the time I got down to New Orleans, I had already been drafted. I kept on bouncing them back and forth saying, I am in Binghamton. I was drafted out of Brooklyn. Oh, we will send it up to Binghamton. When I got to Binghamton, I was already back in New York, and send it back to New York. And then eventually I went down to New Orleans. I went to register you had to go when you changed jurisdiction, at the draft board. And I remember having all my documents because I had a second way I was going to get out of the draft if the first way did not work. And I went to register it in Louisiana and New Orleans at the draft board. And I think my number was 110 and the guy looked at me and he said, "Get out of here." Would not even take me said "Get out of here. We are not going to get to 60," and that is why [crosstalk] I had no [crosstalk] IG: 31:55 How did you feel? How did you feel when he said- JM: 31:58 I felt ecstatic because I did not have to use my backup, which was I also worked on extensively to have a backup. IG: 32:06 Which is a backup? JM: 32:07 There was a, there was a great doctor in New York called Alan Sorrell--long gone, who was a specialist, an allergist, a specialist in inducing asthma attacks to get you not out of the draft, but it would get you a deferment for six months. And so, he was able to induce in me a series of asthma attacks that I had to get certified by a hospital because they knew Sorrell was a no-good nick. IG: 32:35 How do you induce an asthma attack? JM: 32:37 He- I guess the same way in theory, how you build up resistance to an allergen. But he did it in the opposite. He broke down my resistance. And ultimately what he had determined I was most allergic to was cat dander. And if you are allergic to cat dander, you are particularly allergic to kittens who produce more dander. And so, he I do not through a series of shots. I have never asked him, never asked him why. He then said to me, I think you are ready. "Come in next Thursday." I came in next Thursday, and he had two Persian kitten, Persian kittens, and he locked me in the closet with the two kittens. And it was like when these senior once is opening up “You okay." I could feel myself drowning, literally drowning, and then when I could barely breathe, he said- he was on 30th and Second Avenue, and NYU hospital right across the street. He said, "Okay, you are ready go to the emergency room." And that is so I had my asthma attack. IG: 33:35 I see, I see, but it was temporary- JM: 33:37 Yeah. IG: 33:38 Any- JM: 33:39 Yeah. IG: 33:39 -lasting- JM: 33:40 But that is how I went too late. I had no expectation; I was going to be able to succeed at law school. Because I thought law school was going to be hard, and little did I know law school was at an intellectual level for me, at least of what I would call junior high school. IG: 33:58 Really? JM: 33:59 College was much, was much tougher to get through the courses at Binghamton than it was at law school. Law school was purely regurgitation. You just read it vomited right back at them. And, “Wow, you are brilliant." IG: 34:13 Right-right. And so, you did this right after college. JM: 34:16 I went directly I was- started too late in 1971 and graduated in (19)74. IG: 34:24 Your brother was no longer of draft age. JM: 34:27 Oh no, he was in medical school. He was dental school--got you, got you an exemption. IG: 34:34 Right-right-right-right. Did you share your strategy for avoiding the draft with any of your friends? JM: 34:42 Yes. IG: 34:43 Good. JM: 34:44 All of them. IG: 34:45 All of them. JM: 34:45 This was a team effort. I mean, everybody had a thing they were doing to get out of the track. Some of the people I remember going to school with went to dental school, although they did not really want to, because that was some. Went to podiatry school, which apparently got you eligible for not going to the draft. Those things did not really appeal to me. IG: 35:11 What you know, what role did- what were your I do not know women. They were part of, certainly your, you know, you know, rebellious, rebel, student rebellion. But how did you? Did you during that period when you know you wanted to see the world differently, and did you look at women differently? I mean, did you your expectations of what their role was, or did you still look at women and think, "Well, you know, this is going to be a girlfriend, and then eventually a wife or a partner?" JM: 35:54 Yeah. IG: 35:54 And then- JM: 35:55 I did not have- IG: 35:56 You did not have. JM: 35:57 -very progressive new vision of what women were. IG: 36:01 What- I had not asked you before, what did your parents do? JM: 36:06 My father was in the garment manufacturing business. My mother was a bookkeeper. IG: 36:12 I see. JM: 36:12 My father was sick my entire life. He had as a young child, develop scarlet fever before the invention of penicillin, and in those days, it could kill you, and if it did not kill you, it scarred your heart muscle. So, he had heart disease the entire time I knew him. He died at a very early age of congestive heart failure, just right after I graduated law school, he died. IG: 36:40 but he got to see you a lawyer. JM: 36:43 Not really by the time, by the time I came back to New York, which was a year after graduating law school, I disappeared for a year after graduating law school, because the idea of being a lawyer had no appeal to me whatsoever. I mean, I have to caution you by telling you-you have not asked me what I do as a lawyer. IG: 36:44 Oh, I have not [crosstalk] JM: 36:54 I was extremely, very different kind of practice, and I am one of those few lawyers you will ever meet who actually loves what he does. It is to me, it is a, it is a hoot, what I do for a living, and cannot believe I get paid to do it a lot of money too. But I did not want to be a lawyer after I graduated from law school, so I went to Europe for a year. JM: 37:30 Oh, where did you go? JM: 37:39 Mostly throughout France, and then stayed in Spain for about seven months, at a time when it was extremely cheap and Franco was still in charge of Spain, and so being an American was hardship. IG: 37:56 Yeah-yeah. This was in the mid– (19)70s. JM: 37:59 1974. I was- I only regret that I was in Paris when Nixon resigned. I think I would have enjoyed seeing that here, but I spent 1974 in Europe and came back in (19)75 and by that time, my father was really about to die. He was months away from death, and so he could not attend my swear. To my amazement, to my utter shock and amazement, I had passed the bar exam. I mean, I took the bar exam and figured this was bullshit. I was not passing this, and somehow, I passed it, and so I came back, got it, got admitted, which is a cute story, but and then my father was too ill to attend my swearing in, into the bar, and they never saw any of the early success I had, which I had a remarkable early success at the age of 29. IG: 39:00 What was a remarkable- I am so sorry? JM: 39:05 I was, I was appointed deputy borough president of Manhattan at age of 29 which was, and still is, the youngest person ever in the history city to be appointed to that position. And when I left it in 1983 at the age of 33 to this day, nobody, even at the age of 33 has ever been appointed to that position. IG: 39:26 What did you do in that position? What did it entail? JM: 39:29 The city of New York, back until 1986 was governed by a body called the board of estimate, which was made up of the five borough presidents, one from each borough. The mayor, the controller, is something called the City Council President, which does not exist anymore, and they govern the city of New York. The City Council of the City of New York had no authority at all, and so I represented the borough president on the board of estimate. He never went in all the years I was there, he never showed up once the principals did not really show up. It was run by staff, and so I was essentially the governing power of New York at the age of 29. IG: 40:09 What kind of decisions did you make? JM: 40:10 We decided all land use matters and all contracts, all land use matters development in the city, and all contracts greater than $10,000. We met every other Thursday in public session. We would start at 10am and it would run to about three o'clock in the morning. In 1986 the United States Supreme Court ruled the board of estimates unconstitutional because the borough president of Brooklyn had as much had the same vote as the borough president of Staten Island, despite having five times the population, and that violated the one person one vote law, and so the board was declared unconstitutional--was abolished, abolished 1986 but from 1979 to 1983 I sat on the board. IG: 40:58 What kind of things did you accomplish? JM: 41:02 We changed a lot about the way Manhattan is developed. We shifted development from the east side to the west side, part of recapturing 42nd street Times Square area from the sewer. It had become - And this was also a very heavy time, because New York had was emerging out of its bankruptcy. And so, it was coming back alive. And the it was just to be in that position at that time, was by grace. IG: 41:38 You loved it. It was- IG: 41:40 Right. JM: 41:40 And it is- IG: 41:40 Because New York City is so dynamic. JM: 41:40 And, yeah, and when you do it at my level, you are you have the great ego satisfaction of carving into the city of New York so I can show my fingerprints, which is kind of egocentric. JM: 41:40 It was fantastic. The only problem is, the person I worked for was a complete lunatic, and I needed to leave. I mean, the idea that I left, it was people, "What do you mean? You are leaving this job." I mean, the reason I have a beard, by the way, yeah, is I was 29 years old, and I had 109 or 113 staff, of which all but three were older than me. So, I needed to look older quicker. So, I grew a beard, which I kept. I left because I could not take the craziness any longer. He was just he was so irresponsible, and he had wanted nothing to do with the job. He loved running for office. He hated serving in office. Running is fun. Serving is-is not fun. I mean, actually, doing the job is work. And he did not come from the world of work. He came from the world of campaigning. And so, after a while, I just could not take it any longer. And this was just I wanted enough of it. But by that time, I had learned something which, because I had voice, I had not practiced law yet. It was 10 years after law school. I still had not been a lawyer, and I was a political hack and but I had learned the development world and the land use world of New York, and where I sit here today is one of the more prominent land use attorneys in New York City. So, buildings, shopping centers, apartment houses, radical changes in the infrastructure of the city I am a part of. And to me, I come to work every day, and I know what I am doing to do today is not what I am going to do yesterday, and it will not be what I am doing tomorrow. JM: 42:07 Wonderful. JM: 42:10 Yeah- IG: 43:35 It is wonderful. JM: 43:38 And- IG: 43:39 Have you- I am just curious, have you met Trump? And uh- JM: 43:43 I know I am in Donald, if you do the research, I am in Donald's first biography. IG: 43:48 Oh wow. JM: 43:48 I knew Donald well in the- when I was when I was the deputy borough president, because at the time, he was in a war with the Leona Helmsley, and we were also, now you have gone on this road. [crosstalk] You may end this, but my boss's father, lawyer, and confidant, and who I got to know fairly well was somebody I am sure you have never heard of Roy Cohn, so we knew Roy really well, and I spent a lot of time in Roy's office. As a result of that, Donald was Roy's client also. So, while we were never friends with the Helmsleys, we were by nature friendly with Donald. And when Donald tried to build a convention center on the west side for freak on the condition to be named after him, we were advocates of Donald's. And when he got into his spat with Leona, we sort of came out on his side. I. And then, when I eventually became a land use lawyer, I just recently had met up with a former associate of mine who worked for me at the time, and we remembered the story. We spent two and a half hours in Donald's office. He called me up one day because he knew me and I knew him. He said, "Come over the office. I want to hire you." In fact, he had no intention hiring me. He was, he was having a fee dispute on how surprising with his lifelong lawyer, and so he wanted to sort of let the word go out that he was maybe going to move his business to me. And we spent two and a half hours in his office, which I remember, we talked Deborah and I, who was my, she was my urban planner then; we talked about it, that we had the same memory, that it was an office filled with photographs of him, and he showed off to us for two and a half hours. Now, I am nobody, you know, we are two hairdressers that show up and wait a minute, I have to call Kathie Lee, because she just gave birth, and apparently, she had just given birth and in front of us, he was doing this, and I remember vividly, so now send me a retainer. I am going to build the world's largest building in downtown on the waterfront. There was a site called two bridges that the city was actually thinking of developing at the time. And I remember going down the infamous escalator in Trump Tower, and my associate turned to me and said, I will never forget she looked at me, said, "Not for you." And so, we never sent him the retainer, and that was probably the last time I spoke to him, because he called me up about a week later. He said, "Where is the retainer?" He said, "Retainer." I said, "I am sorry. I will get it out to you immediately." I lied, and that is last time I spoke to Donald. IG: 46:43 What do you I mean, that is really fascinating? I did not know this about your professional background. What do you think are, you know the qualities that owe to your great success? You know what-what is it a predisposition? Is it an ability to I mean, you have demonstrated this by how you found an out from the draft, um- JM: 47:19 Doing development in New York is difficult because it is supposed to be it should not be easy. I think I have an ability to do two things. One, I can see the finish line and figure out how to get there, how to how to navigate through the process, and the key to this is try to convince people that they want what you are suggesting and you want because nobody really wants change. IG: 47:56 I mean, how do you do that? How do you how do you convince people that they want what you are suggesting. JM: 48:03 Well, I mean, the first is an inherent idea in New York that we will constantly evolve and it could be worse. So, I am providing you something that could be better, and try to position that there is merit in what you are doing. And part of it, by the way, what is essential in, it is actually believing it. I do believe that it is better to do what I am proposing than not, that we are creating jobs. We create a place where people live. New York is not some Jeffersonian area where there be agriculture. We are a center of commerce, and we all have an opportunity here because of the commerce. And if you kill that, you there is no quality-of-life reason to live in New York. It is dirty, it is noisy, it is you go to sleep at night and you could read in your room without turning on the lights. There is so much ambient light here. IG: 48:59 Right-right-right. JM: 49:00 So, the only reason to be here, it is a place to-to be able to create enough economics to-to be able to support your life. And I think what I do furthers that, that ball, and all the years I was at deputy borough president, my position always was that, you know, that change, if managed correctly, is more beneficial than not that the that the alternative is not successful, and as God would only do because the Old Testament, God is one mean bastard. The irony of it is that hoisted on my own petard, that is how I met my-my wife of 37 years. IG: 49:52 How do you meet her? JM: 49:54 So, it was 1979; we were crawling out of the morass. We were still, we were still a punch line on Johnny Carson, you know the muggings. JM: 50:08 And you were, you were already working on- JM: 50:10 I am the deputy board president. IG: 50:15 You were already working. JM: 50:15 And-and one of the things that I was a big supporter of, and convinced my boss to be a big supporter of, which is going to sound crazy to you, was what was just beginning with sidewalk cafes and restaurants as a way of bringing people back to the street and increasing commerce. IG: 50:28 It is priceless. Yeah. JM: 50:29 And so, and we were, and I convinced him, and he even pay attention to shit. So, I was a huge supporter of sidewalk cafes, which was now becoming hard to tell you this controversial, because it was creating noise at night, which I thought was great and so but I basically had to screw you. This is how we come back from the morass. My boss, at that time, had a friendly relationship with a publisher named Ed Down, publisher McCall's magazine. He would visit him from time to time to pick up whatever you want to think he picked up. And like in every important man's office, the most important person is not the man, but his secretary, who was ever the gatekeeper is it turned out the secretary lived on West 69th Street on the west side, and she said to my boss, one day, "There is a terrible thing. There was a restaurant on the corner of 69th in Columbus called the Red Baron, and this bastard has an application for a sidewalk cafe, which will destroy life as we know it. So, can you kill it? Because we had the authority to kill it?" It was up to us. And so, he came back to see me, came back to the office. River dropping. And he said, was this cafe 69 she got to kill it, right? And I said, I asked them why? And he tells me “Head Down-Secretary, "Kill it. Kill it. Kid," I said to him, "Let us have some fun." The people on the Upper West Side did not vote for us. We, they were they. We got slaughtered upper west. I said, "Why do not we just fuck with them?" He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "The 69th Street block association is probably one of the strongest block associations. Why do not we go meet with them and we will play good cop, bad cop in front of them. You be sympathetic, and I will tell them what assholes they are." And he said, "That would never work." I said, "It is going to work". So, we go up there. They have 50 people. 50 people over a fucking sidewalk cafe. We come in there and Andrew, my boss, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, asked the question, which turned out to be brilliant. He said, "By a showing of hands, how many people here were born in New York?" There were two hands, Andrew and mine, right? So, this is the last one, and closed the door society, and they start to explain how this intrusion into the side street will just destroy life as we know it on Earth. And I go at them. I am very confrontational with that. And you people just the I mean, you all moved here. I mean, you destroyed it. On and on. We leave. Not to be surprising, on the Upper West Side, in a block Association, there is so many lawyers and so many psychiatrists. The psychiatrists decide that the borough president himself is a wonderful man. That short prick is the problem. Got to deal with the short prick. And they assign the Vice President to the block association to go lobby me, the woman who will become my wife. IG: 53:30 Oh! JM: 53:31 And I am as arrogant a prick as you are going to find. Get away from me. She keeps she comes see me. I think she is very attractive, obviously, I think she still is, and I am as cruel as humanly possible, because I know I am going to have to vote for them. I am going to have to do this because he is because they go back and report to the secretary. Next time he comes up to his office, she is her heads exploding. He comes back to me, goes, "What are you doing? [crosstalk] Stop it." "We will be fine. It will all be okay." And that is how I meet my wife. She comes to fight city hall, and eventually there, there is flirtation and there is friction, and then the night of the vote to every to her shock and surprise, it is like you son of a bitch, you did this to me this entire time, and from that date of the vote, we then were never apart afterwards, we got married a year later. IG: 54:37 So, tell me a little bit about her where, what was her background? Did she- JM: 54:42 She was- IG: 54:42 New Yorkers? JM: 54:43 Well, she was one of the people the room. She could not raise her hand. She was born on Long Island out near Suffolk County, and came to New York to find her way. She was in the catering business. IG: 54:56 I see. JM: 54:57 And she was struggling. IG: 54:58 Yeah. JM: 55:00 But she was having a great time living on the Upper West Side with all the other communists, Trotskyites, [inaudible] types, and she became very active in her Block Association, and that is who she was. And she had not been married. I had been married to a Harpur College, someone I met at Harpur. IG: 55:24 I did not know. Well, of course, I mean, I did not ask, I did not ask. JM: 55:28 She was a year behind me. We got married for no reason whatsoever, other than the fact that everyone in our social circle was getting married. IG: 55:42 Really? That is so interesting, because on the one hand, you are social progressives- JM: 55:46 Yeah. But-but- IG: 55:47 Yet you are embracing marriage. And- JM: 55:49 Yeah-yeah, I was- IG: 55:49 -an establishment career eventually- JM: 55:50 A complete one. IG: 55:52 Yeah. JM: 55:53 Complete wimp, and we got married. I have a suspicion that she, like me, never thought we should get married, but it was her family. She had come down to live with me after graduating from New Orleans, started working, helped support me in my last year in law school. And I think her parents were very-very conservative, Orthodox Jews. My current wife is Polish Catholic, and she was under enormous pressure from her parents and all my friends at that point in law school, all the social friends we had were now getting married that year. And everybody got married last year at Tulane. Because, if you were Tulane had, besides being, despite being a somewhat progressive school for southern school, had a particularly sexist point of view about scholarship money. If you were married, it was assumed that your spouse could go earn living, and therefore you were not entitled to any financial support, even if the woman you were marrying was a Tulane student, and so everybody got married in October, because financial aid had been set in September. And so similarly, we got married like everybody else in October. And six years later, we separated in New York after she graduated law school. IG: 57:21 You had seen each other through law school and well, beginnings of your career. JM: 57:26 Well, I did not so much see her through law school, as much as that was my justification that I could leave this relationship, that she had helped me through law school. So, I supported her through law school, and then got her a job by extortion of the using my authority I was still, I was deputy royal president when I was married to her, and I was divorced for about an hour and a half, and I was able to use my-my power to force the law department to hire which did not last, and she actually did not want to be a lawyer. IG: 58:11 What kind of cases are you- JM: 58:13 I am good on time. IG: 58:15 Okay, what kind of cases are you working on now? What are some of the- JM: 58:20 Okay. You want me to show up? IG: 58:21 Yes. JM: 58:24 Really, viciously honest. Probably the case of most visibility. I am going to tell you things you can all Google it. So that is-is something called Industry City, which is 30 acres of industrial property in the waterfront in Brooklyn, which is part of what we call the innovation economy, as artisanal manufacturing is flourishing in New York. And we are really the incubator there, and we are changing the land use there. To give you five seconds about American land uses. We are what I would call junkyard zoning. The idea was always to take the dirty uses and put them as far away from the residential uses, and then gradually the uses, the less and less intense, come to merge in the middle. What we have learned is we do not want to live that way anymore in the 21st century, our-our manufacturing is not as dirty as it once was, because we do not do dirty things anymore. In America, we do not manufacture foundries. So-so the idea that you have to separate that from where people live is not the same reason, and now people want to live closer to where they work now. And also, manufacturing is now part of academics. I mean technology, technology schools are, colleges are very much a part of the new innovation economy. And so, the zoning basically says, "Well, if you do heavy manufacturing, you cannot do any of these other uses nearby." And what we are doing at Industry City is saying, for the first time in New York, "No, we are going to change that." We are going to actually be able to bring academics into manufacturing so they can coexist. And so, the guy who is the, you know, the glass blower is our artisanal we are the largest maker of drones is there an Industry City? IG: 1:00:24 Where is industry city? JM: 1:00:26 Sunset Park, Brooklyn, which is along the water. So- IG: 1:00:32 How interesting. And what are the schools involved in this? JM: 1:00:36 Well, we do not have one. IG: 1:00:36 You do not have one. JM: 1:00:36 We do not have one because we are not permitted. So, we believe, so far, the only Mellon has come into New York and gone into the Brooklyn Navy Yard, which is a city owned site. We are privately owned. We are the largest privately owned industrial site in the city. We have had, we have had significant interest from engineering schools, saying, call us when we can do this. So, we think we will be able to bring in as much as 700,000 square feet of academic uses into the manufacturing world. So that is the most interesting thing I am doing now. I am also- IG: 1:01:20 That is fantastic. That is fantastic. JM: 1:01:20 I am representing Brooklyn Hospital, which is the last independent hospital in Brooklyn that has not been swallowed by Mount Sinai or Columbia Presbyterian. And what we are trying to do there is stay independent there. There is a rationale why independent is better than not being independent, because when you become affiliated, it is one shop for everybody. So, we have- we were saying it is part of our propaganda, but we think it is true that we are best able to treat our unique population needs because they are not the same everywhere. Populations predominantly black and brown, and there are certain unique medical issues, but we cannot afford to stay in business, because, frankly, we do not have the wealth that Mount Sinai has and Northwell has. So, we are saying to the city of New York, look, we have this beautiful campus in Fort Greene, right next to Fort Greene Park, which is beautiful park. Let us significantly increase the permitted density on our site, and let us monetize that by selling it to developers, so we will have this pot of money that will allow us to stay alive as an independent institution. So, I have just begun that process. IG: 1:01:22 What do you mean increased density? JM: 1:01:22 In other words, when you own this piece of property in New York, depending on what zoning district you are in, you can build x. So, we are saying, “Let us build x up here, and we can sell this and create our own endowment without any government subsidy of cash.” So, we are doing that in Queens. I am currently working for Kauffman Astoria Studios and rezoning five blocks around them to create in Queens the first mixed use arts district that will include housing. IG: 1:01:22 How fantastic. JM: 1:01:22 I tell you. [crosstalk] And then I do normal shit--apartment houses in Manhattan, which, yeah, I have done, in my opinion, some of the most attractive buildings in New York, and also have been responsible for some of the ugliest things that have ever been built. And I take my daughters around and show them that. IG: 1:01:22 Are they both lawyers? JM: 1:01:22 No, neither one. My-my oldest daughter is a teacher, and my youngest daughter is a hippie. She is living the life that I thought I aspire to, but having seen it, I do not, do not want it, but they were great. They were both happy, and they had, you know, they were fortunate enough not to know what a college loan looked like, and I was never happier than writing tuition checks. I said to both of my kids, go to school for as long as you want. They both went to private schools, the idea they would go to SUNY was they would burn their hair first. So, my older daughter went to Hobart, which is uniquely situated between Rochester and Syracuse, a pit, and my younger daughter went to Hartwick in Oneonta. And then she did not my younger daughter did not go to any graduate school. My older daughter went to Philadelphia School of Fine Arts to get a Master's in Fine Arts and in something that I believe has not been economics since Gutenberg printmaking and. Then, fortunately, she then found what she wanted to do, came back to New York, which pleased us to no end, and went to Fordham to get her master's in education. And as I said, we have said to we always said to our kids, go to school. Not a problem. We will pay tuition and support you to go to school forever and as long as you want. And we always were sad that my younger daughter did not want to go to graduate school and still finding her way. But they both live in New York. IG: 1:01:22 That is- you are very lucky. JM: 1:02:05 Yeah, I am very lucky, but except for one thing, which I am extremely lucky about. So, in 1992 I was diagnosed with inoperable brain cancer. I had developed a stuffed nose, and I went to see an ear, nose and throat doctor who looked up my beak, and he said, you have a polyp that is huge. And he said, we have to cut it out. And at that time, I was doing this was land use lawyer, and I said, I cannot do it. Next week. I have a hearing. He said, "Not a problem. It is a polyp. It is a polyp." And he said, "We got to take a small piece of it first." And I said to him, "What is the chance it is cancer." He looked at me like there is no chance where you would need it. You are a moron. And literally, that was on a Thursday, and on Monday I got to Houston, we have a problem. Phone call. It came back hot. Is a renal clear cell carcinoma in the nth point sinus, which is a pocket of air that sits right here, where your brain sits on. And had it been benign, it would be just as dangerous, because it could grow and break something called the cribriform bone, which your brain sits on top of. And I went to three doctors, three surgeons, who said to me, the last guy gave me my check back. I will never forget that gave me my check back. And I finally found the guy at Sloan Kettering who became, ultimately the head of head and neck, John Shah. And he said, "I have never done it." He said, “Frankly, there is probably never” he said, “Nobody gets cancer there.” The first thought was, this cannot be so you must have it someplace else. So, I went through a series of tests of find that cancer, you know, and they could not find it anywhere else, and it was nowhere else because, and they said, "Okay." He said, "In theory, I should be able to do this, but it is going to take two surgical teams. We need to bring in a neurological team and-and I am the head and neck guy." Because they are going to have to flip your lid and take your body apart like you missed the potato head. 15 hours of surgery, two surgical teams, and they were able to so I have a scar that goes from here to here, oh, my God. And I have one that goes on the side of my nose. As you can see- IG: 1:03:14 It is inconspicuous. JM: 1:03:14 I had- I was such an arrogant prick that I said to Shah, "Do we need a plastic surgeon?" And he looked at me like, "Son, what do you think I am?" [laughs] IG: 1:03:14 Yeah, exactly. JM: 1:03:14 "You want a plastic surgeon." And-and I had the operation, and what it resulted in is I am somebody who has zero sense of smell, because they had to sever the olfactory nerve. And so that is, that is what that is that was the only price I paid. His brilliant surgery was able to take the tumor out. It was encapsulated, had metastasized, and I was [crosstalk] IG: 1:08:57 Saved your life. JM: 1:08:58 [crosstalk] saved my life. I was back at work in 30 days. IG: 1:09:06 And that changed- JM: 1:09:07 Nothing. IG: 1:09:08 Nothing. JM: 1:09:14 Because I was never sick. I mean, I have stuffed nose, I mean, I did not have, you know, cancer, the jaw. IG: 1:09:21 You are afraid that you might die. JM: 1:09:23 I could not believe I was going to die. What I was most afraid of, you said, because this is, you know, Jewish whining piece of shit. I was afraid of disfigurement and pain because I have zero tolerance for discomfort. And so, but I just could not get you, I mean, I was otherwise healthy. Again, I am going to die, right? Made no sense. And so, I guess I never thought I would die. IG: 1:09:55 And you were, you were young, you were young. JM: 1:09:57 I was 42 years old--it occurred- IG: 1:10:00 Yeah. JM: 1:10:00 The operation occurred to my 42nd birthday, and I lost one day of my life. I mean, I was gone for an entire day, and-and then, you know, I got punished for being the arrogant schmuck I am anyway. So-so when you have brain surgery because he had to take this bone away and drain my brain. So, the first problem they always have is that, did they put everything back correctly? And so, until-until you are, you are stable, you are under the control of the neurological team. And I, they would not, they do not hand me back to my real doctor. They had a neck doctor. So, they come in every day, [inaudible] Sloan Kettering. There is no- I am on painkiller because face, but there is nothing they do because they are just worried you are going to get an infection if you have brain surgery. And so, it is every day take a temperature, and every day they want to see if you are confused. So, what is your name? Why-why are you here? So, on the fourth day, they came in to see me, and at this point, I am fine, I am off the pain killer, and they say to me, why are you here? And I said, I just killed the Archduke Ferdinand [Irene laughs] worldwide anarchist movement. They do not say, stop it. IG: 1:11:31 Because they lef.t JM: 1:11:32 They back up. And next thing is, you hear footsteps. My wife is sitting there looking at me like and then you hear people running full speed into the room. So, the doctors, guys and my surgeon, the head neck guy, came to see me that night, and he looked at me, said, "You are really a jerk." He said, "You are being punished now they are not turning you over for another day". I am one of the few people you know that got expelled from Sloan Kettering. I was supposed to be there for-for three weeks, and after two weeks, they asked me to leave. IG: 1:12:10 That is the point of honor. JM: 1:12:11 Because there is nothing wrong with me. I do not look disfigured, right? And I am on the head and neck floor, which looks like a Fellini nightmare, yeah, people and every day you line up for treatment. It is a gulag, and there are people there that are so horribly maimed and destroyed by a hospital. Mr. So and so you look carefully, look terribly dead. You are going home, and I am there with the New York Times reading it with a cup of coffee, and they told me, we will see you tomorrow. There is nothing they could do for me. So, I started getting stoned and so and great thing is Sloane, which is on York Avenue, the people will be lined up at night, 11 o'clock at night, smoking cigarettes through the trade. And I am the last one on the line smoking a joint. They bust me in the patience lounge on the 15th floor, outside with the head of terrorists. But I am smoking a joint that point. They said, "We think you should leave the hospital." Okay? And I was dismissed a week early. IG: 1:13:11 And you did this deliberately to get- JM: 1:13:14 No. I was so bored. IG: 1:13:15 You were bored. JM: 1:13:16 I was bored beyond belief. I had visitors. The people were amazed. It was coming to visit me. The Queens borough president was seeing came to see me, the Bronx borough president. I knew all these people. They are my friends from the days working in government, and they would say to me, "What are you doing here?" I said, I have no idea. I have no tubes in me. Can you imagine being in a hospital for two weeks and they do not take blood? I think it violates a law or something. IG: 1:13:39 Yeah, and especially when, when people are significantly- JM: 1:13:43 But blood would not indicate. All they did was take my temperature to see if I spiked my fever. And that was, I mean, that is so I am bored to death. And every day I am walking to the Gulag, you know, for the treatment. And I there is no treatment to give me. There is nothing to do. It is done. I had a nose job, basically, the mother of all nose jobs, nonetheless. But it was a nose job. That is what I had. They took out my septum, and you boom, and I have a sinus here, that is, you know, unencumbered by chambers. And then they had a gross but they had pulled tissue, so things up, but it all was inside. And, you know, there was no post operative treatment. And walked away, and came back only a few times to the hospital because Shah was no longer interested in me. It was clear that I had survived. And so he is, he is a scientist. I am of no interest to him. So, after my second return visit, he said, "We will let the resident look at you. I would not let him operate, at least. Why am I going to let him look at me? We are done." He said, "Okay, we are done." IG: 1:14:55 Yeah. I mean, we could talk about this. [crosstalk] JM: 1:15:07 You graduated from Harpur things like this. IG: 1:15:10 But that is so interesting, so interesting. And you are, you know, natural storyteller. JM: 1:15:18 Yes, which is the ability to be a [inaudible] so I have to be I do not do this as much anymore, but I used to stand up in front of hostile communities and get them to first see that I was a human. So, it is hard to hate you. I have always told clients the magic in doing these projects is you got to keep showing up. So, the first day you show up, everyone hates you, and the second day, they still hate you. By the fourth or fifth time you are a person now, and so you got a cold, you okay, you feel all right, right, because all of a sudden you are humanized. Now, once I am humanized, I can start to tell you about my project. IG: 1:15:59 That is actually very excellent advice to you know, young people listening to this tape, and- JM: 1:16:10 You promised me, no one is going to listen to this tape. IG: 1:16:12 No one is going to listen to this tape, we are going to excerpt. And you know I am thinking like, what section? JM: 1:16:20 About Harpur and plus, I have a huge complaint you do not make Harpur paraphernalia. You only make SUNY Binghamton paraphernalia. Those of us who graduated, when we graduated, do not really tell people we went to SUNY Binghamton. It was not SUNY Binghamton when I was there. IG: 1:16:46 No. JM: 1:16:46 Actually, that is not true. It became SUNY Bingham while I was there. But I did not get admitted to SUNY Binghamton. And my diploma says Harpur College. I mean, so, but you do not have any paraphernalia. IG: 1:17:01 Meaning? JM: 1:17:03 T shirts, hats. IG: 1:17:05 I see, I see, okay, so that that is something that we can work on. JM: 1:17:09 The number of us who are Harpur graduates, every year or less, we like World War One veterans. IG: 1:17:16 Yeah, I know, I know, but, but I mean that this is the way of life. But, yeah, there quite a number of you still very active. These are the people that I spoke to and-and they share your sentiment that they really identify as Harpur graduate rather than Binghamton. JM: 1:17:33 Yeah. IG: 1:17:35 So, you know, maybe as a concluding you-you, you certainly can conclude with any thoughts that you- JM: 1:17:45 I have no closing statement. IG: 1:17:47 You know, so, so what-what lessons did you learn from this period in your life that- JM: 1:17:53 I grew up. IG: 1:17:54 You grew up. JM: 1:17:55 I mean, yeah. I mean it-it made me be responsible for me, yeah, which I was never before, and it was a great environment, it was safe, it was secure, and maybe it was none of that, but I certainly felt it, I did not feel I was I was so amazed that I was now responsible for going to school, and nobody was there to tell me to go to school. I mean, it sounds kind of dumb, but wow. I mean, if I do not go, no one is going to call me up and say where I was. And somehow it made me an adult. Began it began to make me adult. I do not know if I am there yet, but, but it was- I was not a child, at least anymore, and I was somewhat responsible, or at least I thought I was going to become responsible for me. And I then made my own choice without consultation with anyone that where I was going to law school, you went through the application process by so without talking to any my parents, my family, my brother, and I think I was on my way to being on my own, and I owe that to Harpur [crosstalk] and the music was good. IG: 1:19:27 And the music was good. JM: 1:19:28 Paul Butterfield would perform there, the Turtles. I saw the Turtles there. Saw the Grateful Dead, and then also went to Ithaca to see the Who, when they just started doing Tommy and I am old. IG: 1:19:43 Well, you share this love with the Dean of Libraries, because I think he, he is, he is a bit younger than you. JM: 1:19:53 So is most of the western world. IG: 1:19:56 No, do not say that. No, and, and so he went to see the Grateful Dead. That was a very highlight of his young life. Any concluding remarks? JM: 1:20:10 Thank you, Irene. IG: 1:20:11 Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jesse Masyr Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Masyr, Jesse ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Partner at Fox Rothschild in New York. He specializes in real estate law and is responsible for bringing legislation that permitted sidewalk cafes to Manhattan. Prior to joining the firm, Jesse was the founder of the Land Use Department and a named partner in the law firm of Wachtel Masyr & Missry LLP. He also previously served as Deputy Borough President of Manhattan, where for five years he represented the Borough President on the Board of Estimate. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Jesse Masyr, '73.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-11-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 80:12 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b9a0c1f3e8629426db91c13d7b438b05.mp3 18c14c313585eb23dcbbe58fcb8581b7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-11-08 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Ellis Year of Graduation 1970 Biographical Text John Ellis acted as president of the longtime family-owned company Nelson Ellis Furniture in Binghamton. As a Harpur student, he was involved in the Outward Bound program. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Ellis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ellis, John ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource John Ellis acted as president of the longtime family-owned company Nelson Ellis Furniture in Binghamton. As a Harpur student, he was involved in the Outward Bound program. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-11-08 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context John Ellis.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-11-08 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 38:59 minutes IIIF Item Metadata UUID 6b87342d-7733-4e98-ae04-520bac72a364 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9ed8e2e865385b5861b0556473679748.mp3 3812013610763e0c890413ce460f1cf9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. OHMS Object URL Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae Date of Interview 2021-08-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dr. Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joseph Patrick Hoolihan Year of Graduation 1972 Biographical Text Joseph Patrick Hoolihan was born in 1950, in New York City, and moved with his family in 1960 to Chestertown, NY then to Granville, NY in 1964. His father was a TV repairman and his mother was a housewife. He attended Harpur College in 1968 and graduated in 1972 with a Bachelor's Degree in Applied Mathematics. After graduation, he joined the United States Navy and became an officer, serving for 10 years on active duty. He earned his Master's Degree in Computer Science from John Hopkins University while on active duty. He recently retired from a Computer Sevices Gov't contractor firm after 35 years. At the time of this interview he lived with his wife, a former Harpur Student, in Maryland. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni from New York State; Alumni in Applied Mathematics – Alumni living in Maryland Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni from New York State; Alumni in Applied Mathematics – Alumni living in Maryland Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph Patrick Hoolihan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hoolihan, Joseph Patrick ; De Rouen, Aynur Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Joseph Patrick Hoolihan was born in 1950, in New York City, and moved with his family in 1960 to Chestertown, NY then to Granville, NY in 1964. His father was a TV repairman and his mother was a housewife. He attended Harpur College in 1968 and graduated in 1972 with a Bachelor's Degree in Applied Mathematics. After graduation, he joined the United States Navy and became an officer, serving for 10 years on active duty. He earned his Master's Degree in Computer Science from John Hopkins University while on active duty. He recently retired from a Computer Sevices Gov't contractor firm after 35 years. At the time of this interview he lived with his wife, a former Harpur Student, in Maryland. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-08-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Joseph-Hoolihan.mp3 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 63:12 minutes Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni from New York State; Alumni in Applied Mathematics – Alumni living in Maryland https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/aca7de7f636f7c449c477ca9cdf9cda2.jpeg 9e5a7ea25e85e2ce887dcc70361fb7c5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3d42db66a9e9eb6f01235ce6675568ec.mp3 940ee7390bbd570fa202805b90a36699 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-07-05 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joy Yagman Year of Graduation 1972 Biographical Text Joy Yagman currently works as a coordinator for senior programs at Pace University's Active Retirement Center, one of the longest-running—and liveliest—programs for older adults in New York. Before that, she worked as a labor services representative for the New York State Department of Labor, a case manager for the Neighborhood Coalition for Shelter in New York City, and a Health Insurance Information Counseling and Assistance Program (HIICAP). Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joy Yagman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Yagman, Joy ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Joy Yagman currently works as a coordinator for senior programs at Pace University's Active Retirement Center, one of the longest-running—and liveliest—programs for older adults in New York. Before that, she worked as a labor services representative for the New York State Department of Labor, a case manager for the Neighborhood Coalition for Shelter in New York City, and a Health Insurance Information Counseling and Assistance Program (HIICAP). Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Joy Yagman.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-07-05 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 31:26 minutes IIIF Item Metadata UUID 21a96593-866f-41ab-9c23-3b39359e2430