4 10 47 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3bcab5d4c67ef94cf99c878ad8118575.mp3 ca9b8719713ef15f6d347d1606787be5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2da63901bf575d17c1f6a212af18aa7d.jpg eb73506bbae5cf3912d5e771970a2a86 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-10-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lenore Ruth Greenberg Year of Graduation 1972 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text After earning her degree at Binghamton, Lenore earned a master’s degree in library sciences from SUNY Albany. She worked in records management at numerous companies, including <span>Iron Mountain LLC.</span> She was also adjunct professor of records management at Nassau Community College in Garden City, NY. <span>Partners since 1985, Ms. Greenberg and her wife Ms. Roberta Treacy were early champions of marriage equality. They met while working </span><span>at Anchor Savings Bank in Brooklyn.&nbsp;</span> Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in library science; Harpur College – Alumni from Great Neck, Long Island; Harpur College – Alumni living in Malverne, Long Island; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Lenore Ruth Greenberg Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 18 October 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) LG: 00:02 So, my name is Lenore Greenberg. I am a 1972 graduate of Harpur College. I have been- I left Harpur and got a master's at SUNY Albany, (19)74 in library science, and I am now happily retired, we are sitting in Malvern having a discussion about my memories or recollections from the (19)60s, and I hope other things too, IG: 00:30 Very good. So where- just tell us a little bit about where you grew up, what your parents did, what your upbringing was like. LG: 00:40 Okay, I grew up on Long Island in Great Neck. My father was an account executive, and my mom was a quote and quote, homemaker. When I was in seventh grade, she started again, working outside the house, starting with the with the Girl Scouts. And I had two siblings. We lived in a one family house with the dog and the two parents and the three children. And my dad had gone to college. He had a degree in chemistry. My mother, who was very bright, had not gone to college, and I do not know what else I should tell you about that. IG: 01:27 Well, that gives us a sense so you were encouraged to pursue your studies. I take it. LG: 01:40 No, I was not discouraged. Certainly, my brother did not go to college. My sister and I both did. And yeah, I guess I was supported to go to college, not with a particular career path in mind, because I did not know what I wanted to do, and so I wanted to get a good general education, which is part of how I ended up at Harpur and then subsequently made a career path. But my parents were supportive, and they were proud of me for going to school and going to a good school and graduating. IG: 02:22 Good, so why did you decide on Harpur College? Did you look at other schools? LG: 02:29 I did, certainly look at other schools. I transferred into Harpur after my freshman year. I was at a local school, and I just did not feel it was giving me enough of what I was looking for, I applied to several of the SUNYs happily got into them, and the program at Harpur was more to my liking. I went to visit. I am not going to mention the other ones. I went to visit, and I liked what I saw more at Binghamton. Then when I saw at the other schools, part of what I liked was the size of the school, and I think it is a lot bigger now, from what I have been reading, but I looked at some of the different university centers, and Binghamton seemed a nicer fit for me. IG: 03:16 Right. So, and what year did you enter Binghamton? What was the when you transferred? What year was that? LG: 03:24 My sophomore year, and which would have been (19)69, (19)70. IG: 03:29 (19)69. So, what did the campus what was the campus like? What was the environment like when you came in? LG: 03:35 In terms of the buildings, they were not it was they were not too pretty. They were utilitarian. And certainly, most of the time it seemed like there was snow on the campus, but the I think educational opportunities were outstanding, and I then had a school experience to compare it to. And in fact, one summer, I also took a course at the local community college because I wanted to get some more credits under my belt. And I just thought Binghamton was a nicer intellectual environment- IG: 04:23 Right-right. LG: 04:23 -than the others I had experienced. IG: 04:25 Right. So, and what were the- your fellow students like this was a time of great change and ferment on campuses, on college campuses, what did you experience of that? LG: 04:45 And-and I had a sense that Binghamton was a little bit more out there than some other schools, too. IG: 04:51 Yeah. LG: 04:53 A lot of the other students, I knew. It was when I was at Harpur. And I am using the terms kind of interchangeably obviously, a lot of the other students were down staters were predominantly but not in all Jewish Americans. And there was certainly a diversity, but it was a disproportionately white down state school environment. I think I lost the rest of your question. IG: 05:23 So just what were the students like? So, you are describing that, that they were kind of more out there, and it was- LG: 05:31 I will give you a perfect example out there. Perfect example. It was not until my senior year of school that I had spring finals, because every other year the school closed down for protests against the Vietnam War. IG: 05:46 Wow, that is great. LG: 05:47 And one year I remember going to Washington by bus. One year I remember going to Washington in somebody's Volkswagen, but we went and we marched, and 1000s people left Harpur to go protest the war. IG: 06:04 Okay, so did your parents- were your parents politically inclined? Were they? LG: 06:10 Not until Kent State, my parents were- IG: 06:13 They reacted to it. LG: 06:14 Yes, my parents were not enthusiastic. I was going off on these various marches and that that school was closed for us to go protest the Vietnam War after Kent State, my father, who was even more conservative than my mother, said he supported the end of the war and understood what we were doing, remembering, of course, that There was a draft at that point and so, a draft for young men, and so all young men were being caught up in that it was not a volunteer military, and that made a huge difference. So, there was the-the political and economic reasons, and there was the draft reasons. People certainly did not want to get involved. I knew people who went to Canada rather than get drafted if they had a low draft number. So-so there was a politically active environment. I still went to school and I still learned things, but there were a lot of politics going on. I saw- you might be thinking about things like women's rights and gay rights. There was some early Inklings when I was at Harpur, but I would not say a lot. There was a gay association meeting, but I do not think there were a lot of people who showed up for it. I do not know for sure. I for sure. And feminism was something that, philosophically, one believed in, but there was not a lot of consciousness raising yet. So, it was really on the cusp of a lot of these things. IG: 07:53 I think, I think that that is the sense that I have gotten from other alumni I have interviewed. So, I am just curious, where did your obviously, you were very engaged in the politics of the time. Where did you politicize- how did your politicization come about? Was it from high school? It was, did it happen at Harpur College? Do you remember how that happened? LG: 08:22 It is a good question. I would have to say kind of yes and yes. In high school, lots of people were concerned, involved doing things about civil rights, and think there was an evolution to the, to-to world view. And of course, a disproportionate number of the soldiers of American soldiers in Vietnam were minority soldiers, so it was a likely evolution. As an example, when I was in high school, Martin Luther King spoke at my synagogue, and he spoke about civil rights, [crosstalk] yeah, IG: 09:04 I did not know. LG: 09:05 And he spoke about, of course, civil right. And I remember one of the congregants said to him, "What about the war in Vietnam? What is your stance?" His answer at that point was, I am paraphrasing wildly, was basically, "I have enough on my plate trying to deal with civil rights at home." This was before the Voting Rights Act had been passed. Shortly thereafter, he came out against the war in Vietnam, because it is all interrelated. And so, from high school, there were political issues going on at Harpur, it was even more so. There was more of an awareness. And whether it was other students or some of the faculty or articles in the newspaper, the campus paper, or information on the news, there was more of an awareness. And I think virtually everybody I socialized with, if not literally everyone who I considered friends would were equally involved and motivated to do something specifically about the war and then about other issues as well. IG: 10:17 So-so, you know, I mean, it was, it was you were, you were in the I do not know how many marches on Washington there were, but you were, you were there. Could you describe how you sort of rallied together as a group and went on one of these marches? LG: 10:40 I have been to Washington many times for different marches IG: 10:45 As a Harpur College student? LG: 10:46 Right-right. So, there were things having been there even before on other marches, there were things I was used to, things I would look at. And I have also been to Washington since then for other protest marches. So, I remember one year going down, and I think that was the year we took the bus. We all busses out of Binghamton, and we stayed more or less as a group and followed the route that had been set. But I remember the following year when we were in cars, and this was salient to how I traveled, because we came into the city by a different route, and seeing tanks and soldiers with guns, machine guns, on top of federal buildings. And whereas that certainly was both meant to and accomplished intimidation. It was meant to intimidate us. It also redoubled our spirit that we were there for a reason to tell the government what they had to do, not agree, just to let things go on as they are. So, we marched this group. I do not remember if we launched behind any banner that said SUNY Binghamton or not, but there were 1000s, or 10s of 1000s, certainly, of people protesting the war. And when we read about it the next day in the paper or we saw it on the TV news, we felt we were trying, we were accomplishing something to get our voices heard that this was an inappropriate action by our government. IG: 12:21 That, you know, it must be a tremendous experience to have a sense that at a young age, your actions can actually influence world politics, world you know, I do not know that this generation has the sense. LG: 12:39 Which generation you are talking? IG: 12:40 Well, the current, you know- LG: 12:41 I think- LG: 12:42 I think, for example, on gun control, the people, I hope, are at Harpur now, I think are more involved in trying to get some sane gun laws passed, because they were feeling more impacted by it. The baby boomers definitely impacted what was going on in Vietnam and definitely impacted foreign policy. That is huge thing. I expected my generation to keep doing things like that, and I think we have done some other things, but not as dramatic, IG: 12:42 -certainly- IG: 13:14 Not as dramatic as (19)60s. LG: 13:16 Well, you have to have something dramatic to fight against to have some dramatic results. And-and IG: 13:23 As we do now. LG: 13:24 And so, for example, we have gone to the women's march in DC, and IG: 13:32 But that was after your time at Harpur. This was- LG: 13:35 Yes, two years ago. I am saying, for example, IG: 13:37 I see. LG: 13:39 So, there is a continuity of social activism. IG: 13:42 That is wonderful. LG: 13:44 Or we have gone to some gun-gun control rallies. So, I think there is a continuity. And I know I am in touch still with a couple of people who I went to school with, and I know one was a lawyer who deals with immigration rights, so she has made it her career to help people. And another one, who was, who was an artist also does social or volunteer work, I think is the best word with a very diverse group. So, I think there is a thread that is followed through. I feel from my time at Harpur, I think other people probably do too. IG: 14:33 I think, you know, it is certainly true, but they express their engagement with the-the world in different ways, you know, they may not have been, as the people that I have spoken to, you know, continue being participants in group protest. I think that this is, you know, this is your-your path. This is LG: 15:01 One of the famous quotes out of early feminism. Is the personal is political. So however, you take it, to implement it if you have an emotional or political stance that something should be this way or that way? IG: 15:15 Yeah, well, let us talk about this a little bit. Because, you know, in the late (19)60s, certainly, you know, this is a time of rethinking roles and in the household, and you know you were, you were brought up, maybe in a certain way, and you know, maybe to, I do not know, I do not want to put words into your mouth that, you know, maybe your parents expected you to get married, you know, to have a family or not. But you know, how did that sort of, you know, expanding of consciousness take place, and was it at all at college or? LG: 15:59 Certainly, I think it was expected that I would, I would have the more traditional life path and find a husband and have some kids and follow that path, which obviously I have not. I think more of the consciousness raising was post Binghamton years more so when I was in graduate school, I think feminist movement got more of its legs under it, or at least I knew more about it at that point. IG: 16:29 What years did you go to graduate at- LG: 16:31 I graduated in (19)74 and this is from SUNY Albany. IG: 16:36 Yeah, so, but-but sort of, you know, feminism, the feminist movement. When did it start kicking in in the late (19)70s, or, you know, I mean- LG: 16:49 Oh no, early-early, way earlier. Sidebar, I was at a dinner at which Gloria Steinem spoke and I rifled through some of my old stuff, and I found my first copy of MS Magazine, and I took it to her and got her to sign it my prized possession. And she looked at the cover, and it shows Wonder Woman striding over the land and saying, health care for everyone and food for everyone and end the war. And Gloria Steinem said to me, "Would not it be wonderful if we could have accomplished that in these years?" And I said, "Who was still working for it?" And so, there is things do not happen overnight. And we still keep looking for them. IG: 17:36 Yeah. But it is, it is, it is tremendous how you know, what a sea change mores, you know, norms, yes, social norms have undergone, you know, and since you graduated. LG: 17:54 Yes, absolutely-absolutely, most of the- I was an English Lit major. IG: 18:01 Yeah, tell us, we need to talk about it. LG: 18:03 Okay, most of the authors whose works I studied were men. IG: 18:10 Yes. LG: 18:13 With very few exceptions. And so, one could graduate at that point and think that the only literature had been written by men. IG: 18:25 Well, with the exception of Austin and Brontes. LG: 18:28 Yes, I said, yeah. [crosstalk] But really, far fewer than- IG: 18:33 Far fewer, of course, of course. LG: 18:36 -just a whole different world, and not only men, but European men. IG: 18:39 Yes. LG: 18:40 So, the voices we heard were very different than what a curriculum is now. And I have, I have spoken to friends of mine who are either professors or even high school teachers, and asked them and gotten book record. Asked them what-what their curriculum is, what-what, who was- what authors they are reading, got recommendations and follow through on things like that. Because I feel that my education, although wonderful, was very stilted/ We did not know it. Then, of course IG: 19:12 We did not know that. We did not know that. LG: 19:13 We thought, we thought, well, these are the voices, whereas, obviously they were some of the voices. IG: 19:15 There were some of the voices right. LG: 19:24 Even I took a course specifically in American Jewish fiction. And I was thinking about this the other day when I knew- IG: 19:35 Bella Roth. LG: 19:37 All-all of the writers we studied exactly- IG: 19:41 Were men. LG: 19:42 -were men. Now, subsequently- IG: 19:45 Yeah, subsequently. LG: 19:46 -I know that there have been women writers, and fine women writers. Should have been included. It was just, shall I say, an assumption, yeah, this is who you would study. So, there was built in by. Bias that I believe has been rectified in coursework these days, but when I was there, it was not. IG: 20:09 So, was it frightening? Was it frightening to kind of go against the grain in some way, or I mean, what was the emotional impact of that? LG: 20:21 In terms of? IG: 20:23 In terms of, you know, of siding with siding with the activists, the feminist activists, and- LG: 20:32 Certainly, being an activist against war in Vietnam was something that virtually everybody at Harpur did, so that was siding with, siding with, with people who were there, yeah, becoming more feminist was, is, and still is somewhat challenged by people. But when you, when something is, you do it, right choice. It is the right thing. IG: 21:04 Right. So, but that is that is looking at the past, you know, that is looking at the past from the perspective of now, but it might have been, you know, anyway. I mean, it is just, it is interesting to consider that, you know, you still probably have to go through some kind of emotional journey, right? LG: 21:24 Sure-sure. IG: 21:25 Yeah, okay, so-so, you know, let us How did you, you know, let us talk about your easier subjects, your-your coursework, and some memorable professors and- LG: 21:41 Coursework professors. That is been a few years. So, I may not come up with names as readily. Because it just, you know, other things that I am thinking about. There were some very large lecture halls, and then we would have teaching assistants who might do some follow up classwork with us. I do not know if that is still a structure in use. IG: 22:03 Probably. LG: 22:04 As the years went on, the classes got smaller because they were more specialized. They were less generalized. And so that one class I mentioned was, I am thinking, two dozen students, an off the cuff guesstimate, and I remember some of the professors and the outstanding ones I thought were extraordinary. I thought they were wonderful. But I do not know that I am going to come up with any of their names. IG: 22:35 It does not it does not matter what were some of the classes that you took that still have maybe an impact, that they open something for you. LG: 22:46 So certainly, some of the Shakespeare classes were wonderful, and American literature I found meaningful and in which way, in which way, learning about new things, learning about new subjects, topics, issues that I had not known about. I mean, as a kid, I did not know about them, Shakespeare, in terms of all he brings to any of his plays in human aspects and how people deal with one another. I took a course in the Bible is literature, yeah, and I had not occurred to me that that even could have been taught that way, and learning the-the logic of the flow of the Bible was just a mind expansion for one of description and so and so. What I think I got out of a lot of it was not only new thoughts, but ways to think of things, not necessarily the ways I had thought of them before. That it was that anything I was looking at were opportunities to think about them in a different path. IG: 24:01 That is very interesting. Okay, so returning also to campus. So, you-you were very involved in the anti-war movement, but you know how and-and your classes, obviously, how did you spend the rest of your free time on campus was, was Harpur College? Was it still Harpur College a party school? Did? Were there parties? Were there? I mean, how did- LG: 24:40 I would not think of it as a quote, unquote party school, because my definition of a party school is that-that is the main reason some people are there. Now I had one friend who was absolutely partying all the time, but she never graduated. And yes, I would have to say there were parties, but um, not capriciously, people, by and large, did also study or go to school, and that was the main reason we were there. I remember one night, somebody said we should have a party, and somebody else said, “We need an excuse. What is the reason?” somebody in this group looked at the calendar and said, "Oh, it is Arizona Statehood Day." So, we had an Arizona Statehood Day party that went on for several years. [crosstalk] the dorm [crosstalk]I have no idea if it continues. It was an excuse for a party, but I do not think of it as primarily a party school. There was great camaraderie, there was great socialization. Sometimes just walk down the hall and fall into somebody else's dorm room and, you know, talk for hours and hours. But it was not specifically a let us go out and drink school when I was there. IG: 25:52 And there were, in particularly, a lot of bars to go drinking. LG: 25:56 I do not recall a lot of bars in the neighborhood at all. IG: 25:59 Well, you know, and Binghamton, I mean, you come from Great Neck, so you were, I mean, Long Island was different when you were growing up, right than it is now. So, you probably had seen sort of, you know, pockets of more rural life around you in Long Island. But how did Binghamton strike you; did it give you a sense that America is very different than your particular, you know, New York experience. LG: 26:31 Hmm. IG: 26:33 Did- I mean? What? What did you think of Binghamton? LG: 26:37 We have already discussed what I thought of the weather, so that was not a selling point. And the area, I did not think the city was too sophisticated. Trying to get a good bagel was virtually impossible. We had a friend who was a Vietnam vet, and his job was to drive down to Monticello and come back with his Volkswagen filled with bagels to be sold on the weekend in Binghamton. But any other time of the week, if you wanted to get a bagel, it was a hard thing to find a decent bagel. So obviously not a problem on Long Island at that point or this point either. So, Binghamton seemed a lot more, a lot less sophisticated than the island at that point. And that may be snobbery from where I grew up, or it may be a reflection of the times. But speaking of the times, you could not get the New York Times easily in Binghamton. You pre order it, but it was not readily available. IG: 27:48 You mean the library did not carry it. LG: 27:49 I do not know if the library got it, but you could not get your own copy. I know that. Whereas, couple years later, when I was in Albany, there were new stands where I could get the times. So, BMW was not the most sophisticated area. But I was not there for-for museums or theater, for example. I was there for the school. So, although I do remember Roberson Gallery, I do not know if it is still there. IG: 28:15 It is. It is. LG: 28:16 That that that plate that I had given to my parents, the one on the bottom there. IG: 28:20 I can see it from-from-from here. Yeah, yeah, it still exists. And there is a wonderful art museum also that you know has sort of astonishingly good, surprisingly good exhibitions. It has, I do not know if you know the photographer, Jay Jaffee, they are all photo, you know, I mean, it is the entire collection. I have them on my iPhone because I sent them to friends. It is New York in the early (19)50s. It is wonderful-wonderful. LG: 28:43 No, I remember going to that gallery specifically to get, kind of, shall I say, a fix of art, to see some art. thinking it was a very accessible size, right? Metropolitan in New York, and it was overwhelming, but we could go to that one and really, get a good night that we could appreciate of the artwork. IG: 29:13 Yeah, I mean their pockets, their pockets of culture, you know, theater, for example, LG: 29:18 And-and there was a lot of music, a lot of music, music, yes, at Harpur, when I was there, both live music, there were some wonderful concerts and a range of artists IG: 29:30 On campus? LG: 29:31 On campus, yes, a range of artists. And then people were always playing music on their phonographs to drink that story. But when I was at Harpur there, Ella Fitzgerald came, IG: 29:44 Oh well. LG: 29:44 Grateful Dead were there Sha Na Na. And then smaller venues, smaller performers like Dave Van Ronk, so there was a wide swath of live music. And, and we went, you know, you would go, you get a ticket for a few bucks and have this wonderful performance. outstanding. So that was part of the social life too. IG: 30:13 That was part of the social Yeah, very much so, and probably greater participation from students then than now. I do not know how many students go to the concerts now, so you mentioned that you earlier that you did not really spend the summers in on campus because it was going there was a tri semester- LG: 30:37 Yes. IG: 30:38 -system, so you return to Long Island during the summer? Did you work? Or did you just kind of kick back? LG: 30:48 One summer, I went to one of local colleges to get some more credits. And the other summers, I worked basically as a waitress for restaurants- LG: 30:58 Right-right-right. LG: 30:59 to get some cash. IG: 31:01 Right-right-right. So, you know, issues of the time, we talked about the war, we talked about the civil rights. Were there any did you notice that there were any minority students on campus? LG: 31:17 Absolutely, absolutely, and it was not segregated. IG: 31:22 No. LG: 31:23 People I considered my group of friends were different backgrounds, different races, um, although, as I said before, it was clearly majority white, downstate students there, a mixed community. IG: 31:47 You know, in on campus, you are probably just a handful. LG: 31:51 I do not, I do not think there were a lot of minorities. IG: 31:54 There were not a lot of- any international students, do you remember? LG: 31:57 I remember one student from, from Iran, IG: 32:01 Oh! LG: 32:02 And but I do not remember students right other places IG: 32:08 Right. Okay, that is fair enough. Okay, so have you been going back to Binghamton for any of the homecoming celebration? LG: 32:19 I have not gone back to Binghamton. In fact, we were discussing before, how is I worked as a consultant for quite a while. At one point I had a client upstate, and we drove by. And I thought, well, I could stop in, but the place in my mind is set in my mind, and it is very much different place now. And I have not gone to homecoming because the people I was friendly with, I have not seen their names listed as they were going. And just to see other people my age, I can do that anywhere. So, I have not gone back to the school. IG: 32:59 I was surprised that there were at least 1000 you know, names. I do not know how many showed up for this particular homecoming. LG: 33:11 Now, I will say, just interrupt you a second. A couple of years ago, I did. We went into the city, met a couple of friends who had been on my dorm floor. They had recently had a lunch with another friend who had come up from Florida. I was not able to make that and I said, but let me know if there was another opportunity we got together, and I have kept contact with one of them, although the other one has gone away. So, it is a more personal self-development, if you will, without going to the campuses. IG: 33:43 Okay, that is fair enough. So, you know you graduated, and could you give us a sense of your career trajectory after-after graduation, you went to library schools, right? LG: 33:58 So, I got my master's two years later from SUNY Albany school library science. And my personal goal was to help people find information. And first job I got was in a not for profit for people with severe physical disabilities. And had a research program. I was helping the research get done and involved in some of the research activities, a wonderful program, and it ended when the federal grant ended, and it was not a good economic time. And I had- IG: 34:32 Was this in New York City, or this is- LG: 34:35 Long Island. I had applied all over the country, and ended up getting something within 10 miles of where I lived. When that grant ended, I looked very hard to find a new job, and could not find anything at that point within the library field, and I was open to other opportunities because I wanted a job, and I got a job in records management with a bank in Brooklyn. And they wanted somebody who knew how to handle information. And it was a small bank that grew dramatically during the decade or so that I was there, not just because I was there, obviously the way it was managed, but when we would acquire another bank, it meant, what information did they have. How were they managing and how did they control it? How did they get rid of the information when it was time? Did they have a role for what to keep and what to get rid of? And so, I was involved in those merger activities. From there, I went to the music industry. So, it was kind of a pun on records management, because they music industry has to deal with records and sound records and informational records. And I did that for about a decade. IG: 35:49 What was the did you work for a company or organization? LG: 35:53 Worked for a Performing Rights Society. So, we had to track when different songs were performed and the audience who had the opportunity to hear them, a Binghamton station has a smaller audience than a New York City Station, and then royalties would be paid out to those performers, specifically the writers and the publishers and the music, rather than the performers, per se. And I did that for, as I said, about a decade, and then segued back into more of a business world and into consulting, where I did work for a company, so I had his salary and benefits and all that, but had different clients and helped them develop or implement records management program. IG: 36:41 And also, the field changed with automation. LG: 36:46 All of all these fields change, whether we are talking library science or records management. For example, you have your primary copies of information the-the way a record is initially developed, and then when it is digitized, it is secondary copy, but it is available to more people, so we would do the same sort of things. I had a client who was a big real estate company headquartered in New York City, and they wanted to take their various leases and legal documents and digitize them to safeguard the originals, but have access to the information. And you know, sure your library is doing similar things with original yes versus secondary copies. IG: 37:31 And when did the records management, you know, industry become automated? Was it in the early (19)90s, or do you rem- LG: 37:43 Again, things evolve. Formats evolve. So, you had microfilm going back decades, and it is a wonderful archival format. People do not like to use, and when I went to the bank in the early (19)80s, we were micro filming right mortgage documents. So, and then that evolved to digitizing documents or the microfilm into searchable databases that are more accessible. So, it is an evolution. IG: 38:18 An evolution. And so, you have been a consultant for how long? And just tell us about your consulting work. LG: 38:29 I consulted for well over a decade. and I got clients. I was not a salesperson. I got clients who were in industries that were heavily regulated or and or heavily litigated. So, most of my clients were interstate, national or sometimes international companies in for example, insurance, pharmacy, financial services. And if they did not manage the information, they would just be keeping too much. That would cost them too much, in terms of litigation, could be researched for too long. So it was too much to handle, and they had to know what to keep, how long to keep it, when to get rid of it, when to track, all right, all of that, what was their reasons for keeping or reasons for getting rid of information which are both based on corporate needs and based on legislative needs. IG: 39:39 So, what kind of where did you consult? What kind of companies or whom did you consult for? You know, what type of businesses? LG: 39:51 Yeah, I am purposely not going to tell you the names [crosstalk] Okay, agreed. So, a lot of banks. A few some insurance companies, health care related information. And each of these industries has different rules and regulations, and from state to state, the rules are different with international clients, and I had clients, both in Canada and Europe. The rules, again, are different and what can be kept and what can be what information should be gotten rid of, and where it can be kept, change from place to place. So, we had a legal team that we worked with to help us come up with the recommendations back to these companies, and then also, I should say, on occasion, I did some pro bono work. I did a program for a local not for profit that did housing for low-income people, because I thought it was the right thing to do, and I had the knowledge and ability and time to do it IG: 40:59 Wonderful. LG: 41:00 So, there was a variety of kinds of clients. From fortune 25 to this company with fewer than 25 people on staff. IG: 41:11 Right-right. So, would you say that you have been happy in your career? LG: 41:20 By and large, I had liked my career. There was certainly ups and downs, but I found it. I found the work I did both challenging and reinforcing. And when I was consulting, I got to do a lot of traveling on somebody else's dime. [crosstalk]I love to travel. And so not only would I get to meet new people, but I get to see new places. And even when it was a city that one would not necessarily pick as a vacation spot, I had a client in Winnipeg, Canada, I had fun there. I met new people; I saw new things. They have a Chinese restaurant at their baseball stadium. It is called, who is on first, terrible [inaudible], but it was funny. It is a good story. So, and I got to meet some wonderful people in other places. So-so, yes, by and large, I liked my career a lot. Yeah. IG: 42:21 Could we ask you how you met your wife? What [crosstalk] more personal? LG: 42:29 More personal. So, I mentioned that I went to work for a bank, after my stint as a librarian, and I was hired to be there, I became their records management officer. I was hired IG: 42:41 This was how many years ago? LG: 42:44 I joined the bank, in 1982. IG: 42:46 Okay. LG: 42:49 And so, I was in charge of the records management program and dealing with all the different branches and corporate offices and corporate functions. And Roberta came in to be one of the trainers, and so we were both in fields or functions. We have to understand the operations that are going on right and communicate the information. And we started working together. She was doing a program for interns, basically coming into the bank and getting them trained. And one of the areas was for them to learn about what information records to keep and how to keep them. So, we had some-some meetings. Eventually started carpooling, because although the bank was in Brooklyn, our-our office were both in Brooklyn, we both lived in Queens at that point. So, we started car IG: 43:40 Where in Queens? LG: 43:42 Near St, John's University. IG: 43:43 Oh, I know. LG: 43:45 So, we started carpooling and-and we became friends, and then it developed into a relationship, and we have celebrated our 32nd anniversary. IG: 43:58 That is wonderful. LG: 43:59 And we have been married three times because when we first got married, we were married in a synagogue. Reformed Jewish movement said we could get married. We were the first gay couple congregants who got married at Temple, but our rabbi had to make a statement it was not a legal marriage because we were not allowed to be legally married. And then we went out to San Francisco. We got legally married. If you recall when the states were doing marriages here and there, several years after, then the third time, we got married in our current synagogue, and it is legal in New York, and now it is Supreme Court decision, legal everywhere. So that is all good. Anything else? [laughter] IG: 44:46 [crosstalk] taking it in, because it is so interesting. So that must have been tremendously satisfying to have the Supreme Court decision allow you to- LG: 44:58 The Supreme Court. at that point, made a decision and said, all Americans can have equal rights. You know, we, of course, had to draw up extra legal documentation. Even just a handful of years ago, we drove down to Florida, and as we were driving through the Carolinas, we were mindful that we had to have documentation in case, God forbid, one of us got sick, to say the other one is to say the other one has legal rights to say what our health care decision should be, because in Carolinas at that point, they were not in agreement. So, but I will tell you another story that I also thought was very satisfying when we got married in temple in 2004 my mother walked us down the aisle, and she was at that point, 91 she was, I think, the oldest congregant in temple at that point, and the potentially the longest-term congregant at that synagogue at that point. And it was such a statement to everybody, not only that the rabbis and the cantor were there for our wedding, but that my mother was-was literally walking us down the aisle and-and loving us both, as she had been at my brother's wedding, my sister's wedding. But this was in the same part of the synagogue where they had each been married. But it was a different thing, and it was a, to me, a huge statement. And it certainly had not always been that way. My mother was-was certainly very loving and supportive, and the three of us were wonderful friends, Roberta and my mom and I, but that turned evolution also so, so I am laughing because Roberta is doing some show and tell that was-was at our wedding, and that is my mom in the middle. And we decided to-to have these wonderful hand painted jackets that were just-just we are here. This is a wonderful statement, and it was a wonderful event, and um- IG: 47:20 What do you think are the most important qualities to really weather an evolution in your lifetime? I mean patience, of course, but- LG: 47:34 I have a sense of humor, yeah, and I also am tenacious, so you can just lie down. Do not worry. So-so although I can concurrently keep the long-term view in mind and the immediate details in mind, itis a skill I used in and honed in business. What is the end goal of where I want to be, but what are the steps I have to take to get there now, it is something that I do now in my volunteer work, approving expenses through the budget now, but also saying, “Where do we want to be in five years and 10 years?” So it is that kind of view, and I do think having patience and having a sense of humor are very good skills to help accomplish anything and to keep a perspective, because there are days that get very distressing with-with different news items that come along with different things we hear about. But progress, I think, is on a positive bend, a positive arc, that things are better for people. We were sitting at Temple last Friday, and one of the women we know came up to tell us that her daughter has a new girlfriend. And she was very happy to tell us that, and she was telling everybody sitting at our table a dozen or so people, but this is something that would not have happened a decade or two or three or more ago. IG: 49:07 No, this is, I think, that this is very inspired advice for you know, current students, for example, listening or, you know, to these conversations. What advice would you give to, you know, I mean, students in the future will be very different. But you know, what are, what are some of the lights you have given you know, you have given advice right now of how to live through an evolution of change. What other, what other sort of, you know, career advice, for example, would you give a young person listening to this conversation? LG: 49:51 One of the thoughts I had when you were speaking was, I am not sure that the students are different, per se. Uh, students are in school because they want to learn. IG: 49:57 Yes. LG: 49:58 And they want to they are learning because they want to end up going somewhere. IG: 50:06 Yeah, they may have different- LG: 50:06 Different technologies, you know. So where is, where is? I went to class with pen and ink to-to take notes. Very different technology. It is very- IG: 50:08 But I think also the economy dictates the type of focus that a student has, because when I was going to school, I imagined that I could have a career in liberal arts. Now, students are much more sort of professional minded and so but that is another conversation. LG: 50:38 Yeah, different career paths and different opportunities based on things we said, like feminism. When I was in school, most lawyers, most people going to law school, were men. Ditto medical school. Now the numbers have changed. Same with nursing school, most of them were women. Now there is good representation, very different numbers. I personally, I think having a big picture view of where you want to be going is important. Being willing to change that picture, is important. Being tenacious little bumps in the road, even if they seem big at this point, right, can generally be surmounted or walked around, gotten around one way or another. I do not feel old enough to be giving sage advice, but experience tells me that tenacity is really important. Wanting to keep going is really important. Not letting other people stop you is really important. Continuing to learn is really important, continuing to grow, continuing to do things, continuing to be open to new things, is important. And I think that is that is key tools in anybody's toolkit for a career or for evolving into a better citizen, a better person. IG: 52:13 This has been very lovely and-and moving. LG: 52:18 Thank you. IG: 52:19 Any concluding remarks? LG: 52:24 Well, you came. You came. You contacted me. You came from Binghamton. I have to tell you that I consider Harpur and Binghamton to have been a wildly important time of my life. And I was not a great student. I was not an A level student, when I was there, I was an okay. I was good student. I was an average student, I think. But what I learned was that I could, not only did I learn how to learn which is more important than little facts, I knew how to get information when I needed it, but I learned that I could manage with the best and the brightest. I learned that in an environment with phenomenally intelligent, witty, wonderful other people, I could hold my own, and that is a life skill that when I got to college I did not have, and it certainly has served me well, and so I think that is a good concluding remark. IG: 53:28 That is wonderful. Thank you very much. LG: 53:32 Thank you. IG: 53:32 Thank you. LG: 53:33 I have enjoyed this. IG: 53:34 I have to- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lenore Ruth Greenberg Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Greenberg, Lenore ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource After earning her degree at Binghamton, Lenore earned a master’s degree in library sciences from SUNY Albany. She worked in records management at numerous companies, including Iron Mountain LLC. She was also adjunct professor of records management at Nassau Community College in Garden City, NY. Partners since 1985, Ms. Greenberg and her wife Ms. Roberta Treacy were early champions of marriage equality. They met while working at Anchor Savings Bank in Brooklyn.  Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Lenore Greenberg.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-10-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 53:35 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fafffebef941be65092d36a10f5b3196.mp3 b6a9123e6826c0c352cff8e1760d999d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/101f4f3113f561c926ce68ffe38d10ae.jpg cb3282d556d5aa5d3545d1587ebbd9b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leslie G. Ungerleider Year of Graduation 1966 Biographical Text Dr. Ungerleider is an experimental psychologist and neuroscientist, and Chief of the Laboratory of Brain and Cognition at the National Institute of Mental Health. Ungerleider has been elected to the National Academy of Sciences (2000), the American Academy of Arts and Sciences (2000), the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences (2001), and the Society of Experimental Psychologists. In 2009 she received the William James Fellow Award by the Association for Psychological Science in recognition of how her research advanced our understanding of brain function and its relevance to public health and also for her mentorship of young researchers. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institute of Mental Health; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the National Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institute of Mental Health; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the National Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Leslie G. Ungerleider Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 16 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) LU: 00:02 My name is Leslie Ungerleider. I am being interviewed as part of a project of alumni from Binghamton at the time I attended, of course, it was called Harpur College and then while I was there, I was there between 1962 and 1966 and while I attended, it became State University of New York at Binghamton. So, I graduated as an alumni of SUNY at Binghamton, and I understand now it is Binghamton University, but I look back still fondly on my days at Harpur College. IG: 01:01 Wonderful. Thank you so much. Where did you grow up? LU: 01:05 I grew up in New York City, in Queens. I was born in Brooklyn. Grew up in Queens. IG: 01:12 Where in Queens? LU: 01:13 In Bayside New York. I attended Martin Van Buren High School. IG: 01:26 One thing that I did not ask you, I am also I grew up in Queens in Whitestone, so just next door, what is your role currently? What is your position? We did not identify you. LU: 01:41 I am a scientist. I am the chief of the Laboratory of Brain and Cognition, which is part of the National Institute of Mental Health, which is part of the National Institutes of Health here in Bethesda, Maryland. IG: 02:02 Thank you. So, you grew up in Queens and you went to Martin Van Buren High School. What was the expectation for you about going college to college? Were your parents- did your parents go to college? LU: 02:23 My father was a dentist. [coughs] Sorry excuse me. My mother did not. My mother graduated from high school and then was expected to go out and get a job and earn money to help her parents. So, she was a homemaker when I was growing up, but my father was a successful dentist. Both my parents grew up in the Depression. IG: 02:59 And you are uh- LU: 03:00 Both-both, my all of my grandparents emigrated from Eastern Europe. IG: 03:09 Did you have siblings? LU: 03:11 A younger brother and a younger sister. It was expected that we would all go to college, and we all did, and we all became professionals. My brother a lawyer and my sister, a therapist. IG: 03:30 Why- what were your reasons for going to Harpur? LU: 03:35 My reasons were that I was rejected at all the other schools I applied to, I was rejected at Cornell, and I was rejected at Rochester. And so, I had heard about, I had heard of Harpur. I heard it was a small liberal arts college. So, then I applied to Harpur and I applied to NYU. I got into both and decided to go to Harpur because I needed to get away from home. IG: 04:13 I see. Also, did you get a Regents scholarship? LU: 04:18 I did. IG: 04:19 You did so it was probably close to free. LU: 04:23 Correct. IG: 04:28 So, what was the reputation of the college back then? LU: 04:33 All I heard was that it was small liberal arts, and people who went there loved it. IG: 04:42 And what was your intention? Did you have an idea of what you wanted to study? LU: 04:50 I thought I wanted to study psychology, and when I arrived, I discovered that psychology at Harpur was experimental psychology. It was not the clinical psychology that I thought I would be taking, and I discovered that I loved experimental psychology, and so it was a great fit. In my last year, I thought, "Oh, maybe I really want to go to medical school and not go on in psychology." But then by that time, it was too late to start taking chemistry and all of the other pre-med courses. But I often rude not going on in medicine, it would have been much easier at NIH having an MD than a PhD to be successful. IG: 06:03 Could you expand on that? LU: 06:07 Having an MD puts you a step ahead of PhDs at the NIH, and it would have been easier becoming getting promoted, becoming a lab chief with a medical degree. IG: 06:28 So let us, let us stay with Harpur College for a little bit. So do you remember any you know, what are some of the turning points you said that you wanted to that made you appreciate experimental psychology. What did you love about it? LU: 06:50 I love my professors. I love [crosstalk] IG: 06:53 Who were they? Do you remember? LU: 06:56 No, I just remember being inspired. IG: 07:02 How early- LU: 07:06 I love the subject matter. It just resonated with me. IG: 07:11 So, what kind of experiments did you do? Do you remember? What did you learn from them? What- LU: 07:22 I loved working with rats. And it just made a lot of sense to me, and I went on in experimental psychology and only became a neuroscientist later. IG: 07:51 So, what kind of things were revealed to you about cognition through these early experiments that you did? LU: 08:02 Well, I learned about reinforcement. That was, that was a big, big thing about experimental psychology at the time. And then, through my classes, I discovered about this amazing thing called brain stimulation, that electrodes placed in the brain and stimulating certain reward structures would be as reinforcing as eating and drinking. IG: 08:38 How interesting. LU: 08:42 So that reward could come from external events like food drinking, but also from centers in within the brain itself, and those centers could be stimulated and lead to reinforcement and reward. IG: 09:06 So, did you learn that at Harpur College? Were you doing- LU: 09:10 I read about it at Harpur and then that is what I did for my PhD work. IG: 09:17 Where did you do your PhD? LU: 09:18 At New York University. IG: 09:20 Okay, so that-that is all very interesting. So let us, let us return to and what yours were. You did you directly go on to your PhD after graduating. LU: 09:38 I did. IG: 09:39 Okay. LU: 09:40 And I-I applied to, I desperately wanted to come back to New York City, so I applied to only schools in New York was accepted every place, and then because NYU had the opportunity to do brain stimulation work. I went there. IG: 10:04 That is, that is a fascinating line of study. Let us return to Harpur College, just let us stay with Harpur College, just for a while longer. So, you cannot recall the faculty that made an impression, but they obviously did, and they sort of directed your future career. Just what was the- did you make friends on campus? What were your class- what were some of your experience, experiences with residential life and- LU: 10:44 I had a very-very close group of friends when I was there, there were five or six of us who were inseparable. IG: 10:57 Did they- were they all in the psychology? LU: 11:02 No. IG: 11:02 No. LU: 11:03 No. I just, I think, the first day I arrived, I met Linda Gray, who turned out to become my best friend for life. And I met Carol Fox, who turned out to be a lifelong friend until she died. Pam Cerrapo, Susan Novogratzky, most of these women are gone now, sadly. IG: 12:09 So, you know, how did you spend your time together with your friends? LU: 12:15 We used to hang out in the student center and drink coffee and play cards. IG: 12:22 Oh, did you have any-any opportunity to go to Binghamton for dinners, or did you spend all your time on campus? LU: 12:38 We used to hang out at a bar called Gentleman Joe's. We really liked it because it was integrated with people of all color. IG: 12:59 Good. That is interesting. So were you, were you progressive, do you think in your [crosstalk] LU: 13:10 I arrived at Harpur with sort of a bunch of plaid skirts and pretty tops, and I left in jeans. So, it really completely changed me. IG: 13:30 It completely changed you, um- LU: 13:35 It made me aware. IG: 13:36 Yes, and how do you think- LU: 13:39 And of course, we all got very caught up in the anti-war movement- IG: 13:43 I see. LU: 13:44 -in those days. IG: 13:45 Did you- LU: 13:47 Marches on Washington so on. IG: 13:49 Did you take part in them? LU: 13:50 Oh yes. IG: 13:51 You went to Washington and- LU: 13:53 Oh yes. I remember my father being very scared for me, telling me not to sign anything, but he grew up in a very scary time. IG: 14:17 So just tell me a little bit about the political activity that was taking place on campus at the time. LU: 14:24 Well, we all became very-very anti-war, and we knew people who were a little bit ahead of us, who were actually being drafted and being sent to Vietnam. And um- IG: 14:48 How- LU: 14:49 I-I when I remember, I married someone from Harpur, my first husband was Ricky Youngerlighter, and he went to medical school, and I remember after we were desperate-desperate to get him sent to some place safe. And so, he accepted a- he was offered to go to Oklahoma for two years to work with Indians, which is what we did. IG: 15:33 That must have been a really eye-opening experience, right? What did you see- LU: 15:40 It was not. Well. So, Oklahoma is the only place where there are no reservations. So, he simply worked in a clinic, but it was not a very nice place to be. IG: 16:00 So, did this happen after you earned your degree? LU: 16:06 It was after. It was just when I got my PhD. IG: 16:11 I see. LU: 16:12 And he had just finished his medical internship at Albert Einstein. IG: 16:18 Yeah. So, you know, returning a little bit to the student organizing. Where did it take place? How many people were involved? Do you remember? Was there just a handful of friends? LU: 16:38 Oh, no, it was, I mean, Harpur was a very, very progressive school, and so it was, it was almost universal on campus about being involved. IG: 16:53 So large numbers of people went to march on Washington. Did you protest in town at all? LU: 17:06 That, I do not remember. IG: 17:08 On campus? LU: 17:09 There was nothing to protest on campus. The campus was, who would you protest against on campus? IG: 17:20 I have heard of protests on campus. LU: 17:23 I see, I do not remember that. IG: 17:24 You do not remember those. So, did you go to Washington to protest since the Vietnam War? LU: 17:34 The marches on Washington were actually after I graduated. IG: 17:40 I see, I see, I see. LU: 17:43 It was- that would be (19)68 and that was that would be two years after I graduated. IG: 17:48 After you graduated. So, did you belong to any other student clubs? Were you active in any- LU: 18:02 Not that I recall, no. IG: 18:10 Did you feel at the time that the expectations of women students were different than of male students at all? Were you protesting against? Did you have any sense of the feminist movement or that was too early. LU: 18:30 I think that was too early. IG: 18:32 Yeah. LU: 18:38 I think that was too early. IG: 18:41 Did you chafe at the restrictions that existed for women students, such as curfews, earlier curfews for women than for men? LU: 18:55 I do not think I- it even occurred to me. IG: 19:05 Um, so apart from your organizing for you know, to protest against the Vietnam War, what were some of the significant events on campus at the time, and how did you feel about them? LU: 19:26 The one thing I remember, I remember walking over the Esplanade and hearing about Jack Kennedy's death. That was amazing. I remember that was um- IG: 19:45 Just remind us who Jack Anderson? LU: 19:47 No, John F, Kennedy. IG: 19:50 John F, Kennedy. Of course. LU: 19:51 President. IG: 19:52 Of course. LU: 19:53 Died while I was a student at Harpur. IG: 19:57 Right. LU: 19:58 And we all adored him. IG: 20:03 Yes. LU: 20:06 So that seemed like the end of an era. IG: 20:16 Yeah, I remember that day, too. So, you know how- LU: 20:26 Yes, I do not know if I can talk about this. IG: 20:30 Talk, turn it off. LU: 20:31 Turn it off. So, one thing that I do remember vividly is discovering drugs at Harpur, I had barely even had alcohol when I arrived. I was only 16 at the time, when I started. IG: 20:56 Just very young. LU: 20:57 Yes, and within a year, it was just drugs were just everywhere. IG: 21:06 Right. LU: 21:07 And no- no one was drinking anymore. People were just smoking pot all the time. IG: 21:19 What- did that contribute to your understanding of an interest in psychology? Or was just that a release and no part of the culture? Yeah. LU: 21:29 Part of the culture of when you went to parties, you smoked pot, you danced, listened to live music. IG: 21:36 What were you listening to? What music were you listening to? LU: 21:40 The rolling- it started with the Beatles and turned it into the Rolling Stones. IG: 21:46 Did you feel that that sort of contributed to any kind of political, your politicization, or not? LU: 21:56 Part of the whole culture at the time. IG: 22:00 Uh-huh, which meant anti-establishment, or what did it mean for you? Breaking boundaries? LU: 22:13 It meant that all the rules were different. You did not need to follow your parent’s rules anymore. You had you set your own rules, and I-I remember each vacation going home, feeling more and more anxious as I would get closer and closer to home and feeling when I would leave home free and liberated. And it is odd because I became very establishment later. I followed a very traditional course, getting a PhD. I did not tune out. IG: 23:10 And you got married, which also- LU: 23:12 [crosstalk] right, at a young age. IG: 23:16 At a young age, and you were thinking, yet it was an enlarging experience, and- LU: 23:22 It was totally wonderful. I look back on those days, it just totally liberating for me. IG: 23:34 What-what were some of the things that you saw differently during those years that you had, you mentioned that your clothes had changed. LU: 23:47 It was, it was all against consumption. IG: 23:53 I see. LU: 23:53 what- I mean. The whole thing about our parents’ generation was acquisition to get the best the home, what you wore, the car, kind of car you drove, and we were very much against that acquisitiveness. It was good to just wear jeans. IG: 24:29 And yet you were all as a group, very determined students. LU: 24:35 We were all very determined and motivated. And I guess many of us went on to make a lot of money. IG: 24:45 Yes, and yes, and accomplish and be successful. Absolutely. This is my experience interviewing the 20 or so people I have interviewed so far. So how did you, how did you envision your future? LU: 25:02 I had zero vision. I-I feel like my entire life has been accidental. It has just been follow my nose where it leads me. So, I went to NYU because I wanted to go back to New York City, not because, well, a little because of the program, but I picked NYU because of all the programs there. It had a good program in experimental psychology [crosstalk]But my main goal was to get back to New York City. IG: 25:46 Right. I see, I see. LU: 25:53 And then after getting my degree, it was I went to Oklahoma for two years just so that my husband could be in the Public Health Service and serve Indians. And then I wound up at Stanford doing a postdoc, because he went to Stanford to do his residency, so I just had to be at Stanford. IG: 26:26 So, when were you at Stanford? What were you years? LU: 26:29 That was (19)72 to (19)75. IG: 26:35 And what was that experience? LU: 26:38 So that I transitioned from psychology into neuroscience. I started doing brain research in monkeys there, and that set my future. IG: 26:58 So did you continue in the stimulation of [crosstalk] LU: 27:02 No, I know, I [crosstalk] I-I discovered Karl Pribram [Karl Harry Pribram] at Stanford. And- IG: 27:14 Who was he? LU: 27:15 He is a he is often called the Magellan of the brain. He is a neuroscientist who started out as a neurosurgeon and then decided that he needed to do experimental lesions in the monkeys to look at the effects on perception and memory, and he became my mentor at Stanford, and I started looking at perception in monkeys and perceptual deficits that occur after various kinds of brain damage, and that set my career. So, it sort of changed me from rodent work to non-human primate work. IG: 28:25 But, you know, still along a kind of a continuum, right? LU: 28:31 Yeah. IG: 28:32 Because you are working with parts of the brain and seeing what effect they have on behavior. LU: 28:38 Absolutely. IG: 28:39 So, what kind of things did you learn from-from your years at Stanford, were, you know, what, what kind of, what kind of things were you seeing in the monkeys? LU: 28:55 So, we were creating lesions of what was called extra stride cortex, not primary visual cortex, so it was more like association cortex, and we were getting minimal impairments. And I presented this work at a society, one of the earliest Society for Neuroscience meetings. I think it was in (19)74 or (197)5. And at that meeting, another scientist, all established scientist came up to me and said, "You know, we are getting very, very different results from yours." And he said, "I think you should come to my lab for a few years, and we can sort this out." And he introduced himself as Mort Mishkin [Mortimer Mishkin], who was very established, renowned neuroscientist. IG: 30:21 And where was he? LU: 30:22 He was here at the National Institute of Mental Health. And so, I came to do a second postdoc with Mishkin, and that really set my trajectory in science. IG: 30:40 So, what kind of things were you seeing differently? LU: 30:45 So, we were getting minimal effects- LU: 30:47 -of these lesions, and he was getting massive effects. And these lesions were supposed to presumably disconnect primary visual cortex from higher order perceptual processing areas. And so, if the lesion is supposed to disconnect, you should get a massive result. And when I arrived here, we decided, oh, well, we do not actually know what tissue to remove to produce the disconnection. IG: 30:47 I see. IG: 31:33 Right. LU: 31:35 And so, he said, “Well, in order to figure that out, you are going to have to learn some more anatomy, neuroanatomy." IG: 31:45 Right. LU: 31:46 And for the next 20 years, I did neuroanatomical experiments laying out the anatomy of the visual cortex. IG: 31:56 So, you would lay out the anatomy, but somebody else would conduct the surgery, actually, where there was- LU: 32:05 No, I-I- IG: 32:06 You did all of that, you learned all of this. LU: 32:11 And in the process of doing that, and also, we were doing behavioral experiments in parallel. Together, Mishkin and I discovered what we later called two cortical visual systems. There is a system projecting they both originate in the primary visual cortex, but one projects ventrally into the temporal lobe, and one projects dorsally into the parietal lobe, and the ventral system is specialized for recognizing what an object is, and the dorsal system is specialized for recognizing where an object is, and that discovery or that conceptualization is what earned me election to the National Academy of Sciences. LU: 33:26 When did that happen? LU: 33:33 That was in 2000. IG: 33:44 Did it change your life? LU: 33:48 It was pretty wonderful. IG: 33:50 Yeah. LU: 33:50 It was, it was pretty amazing. It probably did. I mean, I was already a lab chief at the time, but the recognition that you get from other scientists is just amazing. And of course, you know, my parents were just over the moon. IG: 34:21 What did they say about you? LU: 34:23 They would, oh, they just, you know, they just- IG: 34:41 Yeah, it is wonderful. It is a wonderful thing. You probably got a lot more media attention, right? LU: 34:48 Well- IG: 34:48 A lot more people wanted to do interviews with you. LU: 34:52 That happened, but often, if there would be a scientific discovery, the media would contact me to ask, what did I think about it? You know, what, what was, what were the implications, things like that. And of course, then I was named to many advised scientific advisory boards- IG: 35:18 Such as. LU: 35:19 Yeah, for example, the group or foundation which awards a lot of money is philanthropic. IG: 35:31 So, you have a, you really have a say in determining who receives a grant. That is that is very major in your line of work. LU: 35:42 And for example, I sit on the brain and Behavior Research Foundation, which gives out a lot of money. IG: 35:54 The- you know the field has advanced over the years that you have been a scientist, what are you know- what are some of the future directions in your line of work? LU: 36:10 Well, I-I think genetics that, I mean, I think, I think in all of medicine, I think genetics is really going to have a profound influence. The field of neurology has made a lot of advances, not so much psychiatry, and I think there are still profound discoveries to be made in psychiatry. IG: 36:53 And DNA plays a big role in that. LU: 36:56 We are still sort of sorting that out. What can we learn from, you know, the genetics of psychiatric illness? IG: 37:07 Is that what you are studying now? LU: 37:09 Yeah, I am- I collaborate. IG: 37:11 You collaborate. What are just clinicians with clinicians? What are just some of the insights? It is a fascinating. LU: 37:18 Well, I mean, I think we are at the starting point. So, for example, we do not know at all what causes autism. Why there is a rise in the rate of autism? Is it environmental in combination with genetic glitches? We have no idea. IG: 37:46 Do you think it may just be a question of it being diagnosed better? LU: 37:55 Some people suggest that. But others say no. IG: 38:05 Do you know the work of Dr. Fishback, Jerry Fishback [Dr. Gerald Fishback]? LU: 38:16 In New York? IG: 38:19 Yes-yes. So, he, I mean, I know that he is an autism expert-expert, and he was my, I worked with him, not as a scientist, but as a fundraiser at Columbia Medical Center. And I know he went on to the Simons Foundation, and so I have seen him on television, LU: 38:40 And used to be at NIH in fact. IG: 38:46 Did your paths ever cross? LU: 38:48 Oh, yeah. IG: 38:48 Yes. LU: 38:49 I have had dinner at his home. IG: 38:50 Oh, wow, it is a small world. LU: 38:53 Yeah. IG: 38:54 It is a small world. It is of specialists. So, what did you see your future work in? LU: 39:04 My future, I have no future. I mean, I think I am. I am at the end of my career; the future is with the young people now entering the field. I mean, I feel like I am- I have lived my life as a scientist. I have achieved my goals, and it is time for me to pass that on to younger people. IG: 39:42 So, are you mentoring currently, scientists? LU: 39:44 Oh, I have a lab full of post docs and one graduate student who I mentor. IG: 39:53 And what kind of experiments are you working on? LU: 39:56 So, what we are working on now is mainly, how do we identify faces, and how do we recognize different facial expressions. And we are also working with a group of patients who have what is called Mobius Syndrome. IG: 40:34 And what is that? LU: 40:35 It is a defect. It is a genetic disease resulting in a defect in the seventh cranial nerve, and as a result, these people experience facial paralysis, which means they cannot make facial expressions. It is actually a newly recognized disease, and they have varying extents. It is, it is so well recognized now that they often go in for facial surgery so that the surgeon can so that they are left with a slight smile right on their face. But we have, we have seen some adults who only recently learned that they have this syndrome, this illness, they were never diagnosed as children. IG: 41:55 So, they are unable to emote with their face right also, it has to do with-with recognizing others. LU: 42:07 We are looking at right now, and what we are finding is that they actually are impaired in recognizing- IG: 42:16 In both ways. LU: 42:17 -others facial expressions. And so, we think that one learns about to recognize facial expressions by imitating others expressions and then getting feedback from one's own musculature. IG: 42:38 That is, that is enormous. That is great. That is a great insight. Thank you. I feel privileged to learn this. LU: 42:51 And so, and we are also looking at what are the which of the areas of the brain. We do a lot of brain imaging in our work. IG: 42:59 Right. LU: 42:59 And so, we are looking at which of the areas of the brain that get activated when one recognizes emotional expression. IG: 43:08 I am just wondering the people with Mobius, could they have been misdiagnosed as having some kind of Asperger's or social impairment? Is that ever the case? LU: 43:25 Not the people that we have been seeing? IG: 43:29 I see, okay, so that is, that is, that is really so what is- LU: 43:37 But I should tell you that we are also seeing a difference between our younger patients and our adult patients. LU: 43:48 How so? LU: 43:48 In that the younger ones do not seem to have this impairment, and we were, there is a conference that is taking place in May, and because they have established a huge network now that this syndrome is recognized, and we want to understand, since it is recognized at such a young age, do they undergo training that enables them to overcome the impairment that we see in the adults? IG: 44:32 So, are you working with therapists of some kind, or? LU: 44:36 There is a whole group of people- IG: 44:39 There is a whole group of people, I am sure. LU: 44:40 -at NIH. IG: 44:42 Do you think that you are responding, or are you one of the innovators, or? LU: 44:48 We just, we just found out. IG: 44:51 You found out. So, you actually, you made a discovery. LU: 44:55 We just attached, or we just found out about this group of patients. And we just thought, oh, this is really interesting. Let us test this idea about the recognition. IG: 45:13 I completely understand. So, when did this happen? LU: 45:17 Within the last two years. IG: 45:18 Within the last two years, has it been published? Have any papers been writing- LU: 45:22 [crosstalk] writing up our first paper now. IG: 45:27 That is tremendous. So, you actually have identified a disorder. LU: 45:34 Well, we did not identify Mobius. We identified this impairment. IG: 45:40 You identify the impairment so and then the causes of it. LU: 45:46 And that is what we are writing, yeah, exactly. IG: 45:49 That is, that is tremendous. That is, that is tremendous. So, you know, how do you I have to go back to Harpur College and Binghamton. Do you think that your- that this early experience in any way prepared you for the just extremely interesting life that you have had of taking risks and in your career and kind of going with your almost gut instinct, or is that a personality trait? LU: 46:31 It is hard to know. IG: 46:32 It is hard to know. LU: 46:34 It was, I think for me, it was the perfect fit because it was the school was, at the time, very small and intimate and everyone, you felt this sense of really belonging, and-and yet safe, where you could sort of express yourself, explore your ideas. So, it was really well suited for me. IG: 47:12 Right-right. LU: 47:14 And-and I think it really gave me the confidence to go out into the world and become something I think maybe for a lot of us. IG: 47:29 That is what I am hearing. LU: 47:30 Because we all became pretty accomplished. IG: 47:33 Yes-yes, it was it. You know, somebody said that it was a- the experience of an elite liberal arts college at a state university [crosstalk] and it gave exposure to many disciplines that you otherwise would not have experienced. You know, you know somebody who is listening to this interview, a student now or later, do you have any advice for this student on how to navigate their- you know, undergraduate career, what should they be thinking about it? What is the biggest lesson that you learned throughout your life? LU: 48:30 Follow your instincts, whatever feels good, right and good, go down that path. IG: 48:39 Hmm, and that is, that is really the lesson of your life. LU: 48:46 Totally. IG: 48:47 Right. LU: 48:50 I mean, even when I arrived here at NIH to do a second postdoc, I had no clue I would get tenure become a lab chief. It did not occur to me, it just it felt good being here, and I loved what I was doing, and so I would just encourage everyone do what you love to do. IG: 49:22 How long have you been at the NIH? LU: 49:24 Since 1975. IG: 49:32 And how do you-you must have had highs and lows in that career. LU: 49:36 So- IG: 49:37 So how do you persevere when, when you are going through the valley? LU: 49:42 In, I think it was in 1978 my postdoc was ending, and that was it. There was no it was ending. That was it. And there was no position for me. And I started looking around what was available in the area. I was looking at administrative positions on the National Research Council. I remember going on interviews, and then another scientist in a different institute, also doing perceptual work, said, "You know, Leslie, I am just, I am getting a new lab. I have these positions. I do not want to fill them yet, I but I want to hold them. I am afraid I will lose them. So can I slip you in to a position you can still work with Mort Michigan, yes, but you will hold that slot for me." And so, I said, "Sign me up." And I did. And then two years later, Mishkin got a real ft, full time employee slot. He put me in it and- IG: 51:41 And you were already kind of in the groove of that work, and you were enjoying. LU: 51:44 Right. IG: 51:45 Yeah, so just so maybe to be open to experience and to-to opportunity, and to just hang on. LU: 51:59 Hang on, hang in there. IG: 52:04 Do you have any concluding remarks? Is there anything that you would like to talk about? LU: 52:19 [crosstalk] say that I still look back on my college days at Harpur as just among the best of my life I really turned into a real person there. I made great friends, friends for life, really. they were very happy years. IG: 53:05 Thank you. Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leslie G. Ungerleider Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institute of Mental Health; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the National Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ungerleider, Leslie G. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Ungerleider is an experimental psychologist and neuroscientist, and Chief of the Laboratory of Brain and Cognition at the National Institute of Mental Health. Ungerleider has been elected to the National Academy of Sciences (2000), the American Academy of Arts and Sciences (2000), the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences (2001), and the Society of Experimental Psychologists. In 2009 she received the William James Fellow Award by the Association for Psychological Science in recognition of how her research advanced our understanding of brain function and its relevance to public health and also for her mentorship of young researchers. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Leslie Ungerleider.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-16 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 53:10 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/23ac4353d0f294dc4c4ec7c642c9d908.mp3 11b1bc05c8e1b3572aed56648abdee86 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-04-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lynne Federman Year of Graduation 1974 Biographical Text For 30 years, Lynn successfully guided institutions under regulatory enforcement actions and helped create and implement anti-money laundering programs. At Harpur, she managed the student-run radio station, WHRW. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the law; Harpur College – Alumni in banking regulation; Harpur College – Alumni at WHRW; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the law; Harpur College – Alumni in banking regulation; Harpur College – Alumni at WHRW; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Lynne Federman Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 4 April 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay, hello. This is Lynne Federman. LF: 00:06 Hi. My name is Lynn Fetterman. We are sitting here in South Boston, Massachusetts, and I am going to talk about my time at SUNY Binghamton. I am 64 years old. I graduated in 1974 I started in September 1970. IG: 00:29 Thank you, so, Lynn, maybe we can begin by your telling us where you grew up and who your parents were. LF: 00:41 I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. My parents were Anne and Murray Fetterman. We lived in Brooklyn my whole life, until we moved to Clifton, New Jersey, where I went to high school. But we had a house in upstate New York, so I was very familiar with upstate New York, and I wanted to go to Binghamton because I knew it was a great university and It was reasonably priced. IG: 01:16 Before we before we discuss your college years, tell us, give us a little bit of background about your family, what they did, where they were from, whether they encouraged your education. LF: 01:34 So my dad was he had his own little business. My mom stayed at home until we were in high school, when she went to work for Peugeot. Their parents, all four of my grandparents, emigrated from Poland, came through Ellis Island. My mom and dad both grew- well my mom grew up in the Lower East Side, and my dad grew up in Brooklyn. And education was greatly encouraged, though it is true that although they encouraged me to go to the best college I could go to, the money was really for the boys my younger brothers. So it was really understood that if there was money for an Ivy League college, that would be for the boys. IG: 02:31 Did they go through an Ivy League college? LF: 02:32 Um, let us see, yeah, my next brother went to Rochester, and my brother after that, I think, went to Hobart for a short time. I think. I do not know. I did apply to Cornell, maybe for scholarship. I did not get in to Cornell undergrad. So I do not know what would have happened if I had gotten in, because I know there was not money to go there, and Binghamton was so reasonably priced, and because we had the house upstate, I got the in-state tuition. IG: 03:03 Did you get a regent scholarship? Do you remember? LF: 03:05 I think I did. I do not remember exactly. IG: 03:09 So did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to study, or were you just attracted by the liberal arts? LF: 03:18 I like the liberal arts in general, but I distinctly remember not really knowing what I wanted to do, but thinking my choices were limited to law or medicine, for some reason, that was my choice for my family, and I did not really like medicine. So I remember distinctly standing in front of the post office boxes in Binghamton, where the student had their post, opening it up and getting my LSAT scores, and knowing that I could go to a good law school. And they did end up going to Cornell Law so I drove from Binghamton to Ithaca that summer to go to Cornell Law School. IG: 03:59 What-what-what are some memorable courses that you took at Harpur College? It was- LF: 04:07 Yeah, I went to Harpur College. I would say my coursework was not as memorable as my extracurricular activities, but I did love my psychology courses. IG: 04:18 Do you remember- LF: 04:19 I do not remember the professor's name, but I did some research for him with mice. That is what I remember, and that was a lot of fun. IG: 04:27 Do you remember what the research? LF: 04:29 I do not remember what we were looking at, but I felt like I was doing some kind of more advanced research for an undergrad. He was doing a lot with graduate students, but he let me do some work as an undergrad, but I really spent more time most of my career at Binghamton, in my memory, was at the radio station, WHRW, so I had a show, and it was a it was a soft rock show, folk rock and. I remember distinctly broadcasting, practicing in front of the mic, picking songs with albums. You had to play the albums like a DJ. I was a DJ, and then becoming more and more involved with the radio station, meeting my husband there, dating the guy who was the-the general manager before me, who is Eric Logan, felt he was the general manager. And then he graduated, I think, after my freshman year. But I started at Binghamton. I was 16, so that was young. I was very-very, young. And what I really remember is orientation, pre orientation, we went camping, which I do not think I had ever gone camping nearby, like maybe on the campus we had, we had pre orientation, camp out. IG: 05:54 Overnight camp ? LF: 05:56 Overnight, yeah, but in my memory, it was near-near the dormitories. Was it Hingham? Hingham? What is the name of the dorms up there? IG: 06:09 So what was, do you remember? What was the point of this- LF: 06:14 Orientation? IG: 06:15 Orientation, well, together and understand, but, but doing it outdoors? LF: 06:20 I think so you can make friends. IG: 06:22 I see, I see. And you did? LF: 06:24 And I did. I made friends. I made got met my first boyfriend there. So that was nice. So then I had a boyfriend, and I had my first roommate, who was so different from me, and you know, she was from the Midwest, she-she was from a military family and we are still friends today. Yeah, I am going to go see her in California. IG: 06:45 Oh, that is lovely. That is lovely. So it was, you know, a broadening kind of experience. LF: 06:55 It was completely different from anything I had ever experienced, but I was extremely diligent. I do not think I missed a class, and my view was, and still is, with my children, if you are paying for it, you might as well take all the classes. So I know I do not think I skipped a class the whole time I was there. Maybe I did, if I was really sick, and I was sick at one point, I was in the infirmary for a month with pneumonia, Yeah. But that, I think, is the only time I miss class. What? IG: 07:25 What was the campus like those days? Was it pretty rural, you know- LF: 07:33 In my mind it was rural. Yeah, I have not been back in quite a number of years, but I remember the last time I was up. I do not remember it. Possibly it was 30 years ago, when my son was little. We brought him back, we took him to the radio station, and he was a little baby. And I thought it was built up then, 30 years ago. So I cannot imagine what it is like. I am trying to get up there this spring. So it is much more built up. Yeah, I would say there was Woods everywhere surrounding the whole campus. IG: 08:07 There still are there. It is a very wooded area. They are peripheral campuses. So you know, what were your- how did you stumble into the radio station, not having had prior experience. LF: 08:23 I am trying to remember how I got there. I think I literally stumbled in looking for some activity to do. And, you know, hanging out at the Student Center was fun. And then I think I stumbled upon, I do not know, the first time I entered the radio station, but then it was my life, and I remember when I was running for general manager. I just remember, like, just roaming around various dormitories, trying not to pay attention while people were voting, and then someone, I guess we did not have cell phones, but somehow, I called in and I found out that I had become the general manager, and that was a big experience, really. IG: 09:06 How old were you? But what-what- LF: 09:08 It was my senior year. So I started when I was 16. [inaudible] so I was between 19 and 20. IG: 09:16 Very young. And how large was the radio staff? LF: 09:20 Dozens, in my recollection, were dozens of people. IG: 09:23 What kind of- LF: 09:23 And they were much more professional type of DJs, radio people at that time. But I think I was the only one who wanted to handle the business end and, you know, get the money work on the budget, deal with the people. But that really gave me a grounding in, you know, the huge budgets I handled later in my life and the amount of people I managed that, that was the grounding there. IG: 09:50 That is very much [inaudible] so, you know, it is, it is, it is actually very remarkable that you were attracted to that. End of the radio enterprise, right? Because most people want to be DJs. LF: 10:06 Yeah. I also had a little show, but it was very terrifying being on the air for me. So I did not, you know, I loved it, and I was scared of it. Yeah, some people are natural. They just love to talk on the radio. But that was not my was not my main thing. IG: 10:21 What is it then? LF: 10:23 Like now, I like the socializing. IG: 10:26 So what was your little show? You said- LF: 10:29 it was a folk it was folk rock. I am trying to remember the name of it, but my theme song, I think, was Brown Eyed Girl. I think that that was the theme song, and it was fun. But, you know, I was really into having people do the news and special projects and, you know, we did have a lot of classical programming. But again, I have not been back. You know, I stay in touch with some of the people, but have not been able to go to any of the reunions. Maybe I will go now. IG: 11:04 We hope you do. What was tell us a little bit about the programming and what, what role you played in deciding- LF: 11:14 Oh, we had meetings. We wanted to have public broadcast programming. We could bring in shows real and you know, NPR shows, right that time, we could import them and use them, but we tried to have our own reporting, if possible, campus reporting, local reporting, but it was hard, because she had to get kids who to be reporters, right? Well, mostly it was music. IG: 11:37 It was much music- LF: 11:38 Jazz, classical, rock. IG: 11:41 What kind of what kind of reporting did you do? It was so it was Binghamton, LF: 11:47 Yes, local campus. IG: 11:49 Campus. Do you remember stories? [crosstalk] Do you remember stories? [crosstalk] Do you think that what was- LF: 11:57 I think it lost Because we did not record any of it. IG: 12:00 You did not record any of it? LF: 12:01 Yeah, I do not think it occurred to us. Or if we did, I would have no idea where they are. No idea. Do you know the name Ron Drumm? Excuse me, Ron Drumm. IG: 12:11 No, that I have not encountered the name. LF: 12:13 Yeah, he, he was around for years in in my recollection, he possibly was- had graduated while I was there, and then stuck around for a long time in Binghamton. And I think they let him stay on the radio. Ron drum, D, R, U, M, M. I could try to find him for you. IG: 12:35 What were some of the issues in that you were talking about? What was in the air, politically, culturally. I mean, you were playing music, which is so much a part of the- LF: 12:46 Yeah, I think [crosstalk] focus, right, a huge focus. I do not remember being, you know, politically active in terms of any wars, or where we were in terms of overseas actions or the Vietnam War. I mean, in high school, I remember protesting the Vietnam War. I do not remember doing anything in Binghamton, trying to remember when it was over. When was the war over? IG: 13:16 In the early- LF: 13:18 In the (19)60s? IG: 13:19 No in the- LF: 13:20 (19)70s. IG: 13:20 No, the (19)70s. LF: 13:21 So we must have been doing some of that, but I really do not have a recollection. I remember working for McCarthy, but that was high school. IG: 13:31 Working for? LF: 13:32 McCarthy. IG: 13:33 The 20- LF: 13:35 No, when he was running for president, Gene McCarthy was running for President. IG: 13:40 That would make sense. LF: 13:41 Yeah, that is the political stuff. But I do not remember political we were a bit removed up there in Binghamton. I think we all felt it. It was such a- IG: 13:50 But you were New York City kids. LF: 13:52 All New York City kids, you know- IG: 13:54 With the exception of your roommate from the Midwest. LF: 13:57 Right-right. But these were New York City born and bred, kids. IG: 14:03 So, you know, you were kind of more in touch- LF: 14:06 And she, and she might have been, most recently from Long Island. IG: 14:09 I see. I see. LF: 14:10 That is my roommate. IG: 14:12 You know, you were in touch and, and I am just, I am just trying to get a-an understanding of the climate, of the cultural climate, what, you know, you were playing this music, and did you have any- LF: 14:28 We were, I think we were, we went to we went to class. I think there was a fair amount of marijuana. You know, I smoked a little bit, not a lot, but we were post Woodstock, right, just after Woodstock, so it was kind of, I think it was still kind of Hippieish. IG: 14:49 Yeah, you were caught up by that fervor of the late (19)60s. You know, the you were the tail end of that (19)60s generation. And all that it represented. Did you buy into it? LF: 15:03 Absolutely. IG: 15:04 So what-what- LF: 15:04 Absolutely. IG: 15:05 What did it represent to you? LF: 15:09 Really, a feeling of optimism that we could accomplish a lot if we just wanted to, and we could have fun at the same time. But for me, I felt like I had to work hard. We all felt we had to work hard. Pretty much everyone I knew got real jobs, good jobs, corporate, academic, teaching, medicine, law, these were the jobs we got. You know, I feel like the generation now, my kids, 50-50, you know, friends, you know, some of them really want good jobs. Some want to work off the grid now, but I felt like we all felt like we had to get real jobs with real paychecks. IG: 15:56 I think that is more true of Binghamton students, rather than the interim generation. And do you think that in some sense, you know you said that you were optimistic and-and was your kind of youth culture bound up in music? Was, was that your way expressing [crosstalk] LF: 16:20 I think [crosstalk] to find the music. IG: 16:22 Rebelliousness as well? LF: 16:24 Yeah, I think it was defined by music. Maybe start for me, starting with Woodstock, because I was so young at Woodstock. IG: 16:30 And we would love to hear about your experience at Woodstock. LF: 16:35 So that summer, the summer of (19)69 I was a rising senior in high school, and when I was a junior in high school, I was accepted to Cornell's summer program, and I took organic chemistry, which I passed, but it pretty much told me I was not going to medicine, but I remember being in Ithaca and hearing that the site of Woodstock had changed from Woodstock, New York, to White Lake, New York to Max Yasgur's farm. And my house, my parents’ house upstate, was right next to White Lake, and I knew Max Yasgur's farm. And I said, “There is no way I heard it on the radio, thinking, oh man, there is nothing there. It is a cow pasture. They cannot have a rock concert, and there is no access. And I said, “But good for me, I can go, because I can walk from my house to Woodstock.” And that is, that is what we did at the end of the summer, when I left Ithaca, I went to-to near Monticello, which is White Lake. And Small Wood was the name of the town right next to White Lake where our house was since I was a little girl, and we probably had 25 people sleeping on our property, camping out friends and friends of friends, and that road that you see in the in the movie 17 B was just jammed, but all of the local residents worked together to support the crowd in terms of water and food. And it was, it was an it was like an invasion. And I think my father prohibited me from going, but I went anyway, and I had my girlfriend was with me, but we did it in a very nice way, because we could go in the morning, listen to the music all day, and then go home and not have to sleep in the mud, slept in my bed, ate my mother's food, and that was a lot a lot of fun. But my brothers also went. My little brother, I think was if I was 15, maybe he was 11, and he went with my brother, who was maybe 13, unsupervised. So he has written something about that, which is hysterical. IG: 18:55 I would love to see it, actually. LF: 18:56 Yeah, let me see if I can get it for you. I have not seen it in a long time, but I do not know if he is publishing it, but he cannot believe that our parents let him go at 11 to Woodstock. IG: 19:07 And then there was no and there was no prohibition of your younger brothers going. But yet your father had [crosstalk] LF: 19:15 Right. He must have changed his mind because, because I was going no matter. IG: 19:21 And he had no way of anticipating what, what was going to happen, what it would be. So, what did you see? LF: 19:27 [crosstalk] I saw all of, you know, all of the acts I saw, Joe Cocker, I do not remember a lot of the actual songs, and I was very happy I did not have to sleep there. It was kind of yucky and rainy and muddy. IG: 19:41 Did you like the music? LF: 19:43 I love them. I love that. I still love them. You know, I am not the kind of aficionado that you know my friends are. I still, I still love it. IG: 19:54 So you saw Joe Cocker. Do you remember who- which other singers you saw? LF: 19:58 I do not remember, you know, when I watched the movie, I remember, you know, I did not prep for this interview, but it was really, really fun. I mean, generally- IG: 20:09 1000s of-of young people. LF: 20:12 Hundreds of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s. IG: 20:16 Hundreds of hundreds. LF: 20:17 I mean, have you ever, did you ever seen the movie? IG: 20:19 Oh, yes, yeah. LF: 20:20 So I think so it is half a million strong. IG: 20:22 Half a million strong. This- that is remarkable. And was this, LF: 20:26 And it was all very- [crosstalk] IG: 20:27 True. Well, I mean, you are from New York City, so you have seen crowds before. You did not shy away from a crowd. LF: 20:32 Yes, this was unbelievable. It was literally Unbelievable. How many people there were and- IG: 20:39 And they were all young. LF: 20:41 Everybody was young. There was no in my-my recollection, there was nobody old. IG: 20:45 Did was that a life changing experience to be amidst so many young people, and they all stood for something, even if it was- LF: 20:53 It was love of rock and roll IG: 20:55 Articulated. LF: 20:56 Yeah, but it was something else, but it was positive. There was no, there was none of this kind of negativity that we have now in public discourse. IG: 21:06 Right, which is dark and- LF: 21:08 Dark and horrible. [crosstalk] Yeah. So in my mind, it was much, much more positive. IG: 21:13 Was there an idea that music maybe could change the world to a better place? LF: 21:17 Yeah, yeah, because it was so positive and fun, and really, really fun. I mean, that is what I am remembering, is that we just had so much fun, and I went back for the second day. I am trying to remember exactly who I heard, but I cannot. But, you know, I think that also set me on a course of wanting to see rock and roll the rest of my life. You know, so that I did not do as much as I could, because I had the kids, right, but I always wanted to, and then when the kids were older, you know, I went to see the Rolling Stones and Paul McCartney and Bruce Springsteen, of course. But no, I can distinctly remember seeing the Beatles on Ed Sullivan that I have a clear memory of in the (19)60s in my parents’ bedroom and just being mesmerized. IG: 22:09 Yes. LF: 22:09 Why? I have no idea of a completely mesmerized. IG: 22:12 What was the reaction that your parents had to them? LF: 22:15 They were fine about it. I mean, we were very I think in (19)64, I was 11, so they were not worried, or concerned. IG: 22:23 They were not worried or concerned as well. LF: 22:26 They were concerned about Woodstock, just in terms of fearing panic and stampede, because there were so many people knowing. And here is I have also a distinct memory of standing with my mother. My mother was very friendly with the doctor in White Lake. And I remember she and I were standing in the-the parking lot of the school in White Lake, the middle school, I think it was and waving down helicopters who were medevacking people out. You know, people have been sick or overdosed or- IG: 23:00 Overdosed, yeah. LF: 23:01 So I know she was working closely with the doctor at the time, just thinking in terms of Woodstock. IG: 23:08 But that did not happen- LF: 23:10 During- IG: 23:11 -on the first day. LF: 23:12 No-no, it was like the second or the third- IG: 23:14 And then they-they probably did not let you return on the third day, or- LF: 23:19 No, I remember going two days, not- IG: 23:20 Two days maybe not the third day. LF: 23:23 But it was, I know it was not scary for me. It was a lot of fun. Now, maybe I would be scared to go into a big, big, big crowd. IG: 23:33 You know, you-you could not have anticipated- LF: 23:34 I should go to the Women's March. IG: 23:36 What-what was that like? LF: 23:38 The Women's March here in Boston? IG: 23:40 Oh, this is just recently. LF: 23:41 Yeah, no, the Woman's March in January after Trump was elected. And every time I am in a big crowd like that, which is not often, I will think, "Oh, this is reminds me of Woodstock" Absolutely, especially if it has a positive energy to it. IG: 23:57 Good for you. And so feminism was, you know, an incipient kind of movement in the early (19)70s that I know. What was that- did that affect you directly? Do you feel during those years? LF: 24:15 Did I benefit from it? Absolutely. IG: 24:17 Yeah. LF: 24:17 Absolutely. IG: 24:19 But were you [crosstalk] LF: 24:20 But I never, yes, I was aware of feminism, but I also felt, maybe from my parents, you know, except for the money issue and the money, you know, goes through the boys, otherwise, I could do anything I wanted, you know. And I felt I could do anything I wanted. And I did, you know, with my career, I just kind of cut through a lot of the crap, and- IG: 24:42 Well tell us about that, and especially how you cut through the crap, because I think that- LF: 24:48 I ended up going to law school from the time in front of the box off the post office boxes in Binghamton, and seeing that I had a good LSAT score, which with my good enough grades would get me into law school. And I did get into Cornell Law. I said, I remember opening. I am going, "Oh, I can be a lawyer." I had no huge interest in being a lawyer, but then I got it, I grew the interest. So then I yeah, and I went to, I must have worked that summer in Binghamton. What did I do? I stayed in Binghamton the summer after senior year. So I must have done something. IG: 25:28 Were you working? LF: 25:29 I must have been working, maybe for a professor. I cannot remember exactly, because I remember packing my stuff. I did not go back to Jersey, packing up, driving the hour from Binghamton to Ithaca. IG: 25:44 Was it a world of difference taking [crosstalk] LF: 25:48 [crosstalk] an Ivy League school? Yeah-yeah. It was. It had a different vibe to it, completely different. But it was also law school, so it was much more serious. You know, I do not remember classes being a focus in Binghamton. I know I went to all of them, but, you know, can I really remember them? Not that much. If I went back, would I, you know, I, you know, youth is wasted on the young. You have heard that. So I wish I can go to Binghamton now, take courses there now when I would appreciate them more. But when I went to Cornell Law School, it was so tough, you know, then I just worked all the time. I did not do any extracurricular stuff the first year. The second year was a little better, and I worked. I remember, I got a job at Willard Straight Hall, which is the Student Center, and I was the manager of the student center. So I could, you know, student manager at night, so I could study, and I was in charge of all the undergraduates who were working there. So that was fun. IG: 26:56 So you, you enjoyed this managerial you got the taste of managing, from- LF: 27:03 From being a manager in Binghamton, [crosstalk] But also, I could study, and it was very quiet at the Student Center. IG: 27:09 That is what appealed to you. LF: 27:10 Yeah. And there were undergrads actually staffing the desks and rooms and the various activities. And I would just wander around every once in a while, and I was there if there was a crisis, an emergency, but mostly I could stay in the office and study for law school, which was so much work and so much reading, a lot of reading. IG: 27:28 Yeah, I could imagine I have friends who come to law school. So you were there for three years and LF: 27:38 And then I went right to New York. IG: 27:40 You went right- and tell us a little bit about this trajectory of your career, but also with a view to maybe mentioning the instances where you cut through the bullshit and how you did that, because that is informative. LF: 27:56 Well, in terms of feminism or just being, you know, just- IG: 28:00 I think it- LF: 28:01 -doing- IG: 28:01 -it goes hand in hand, right? Feminism and, LF: 28:04 Yeah-yeah, I did not feel maybe just because I was in the perfect year when they were opening up, you know, the law school for women, and then law firms were looking for women. IG: 28:15 Cornell opened its law school for women. LF: 28:18 No opening up the classes. More and more women were, I was not the first woman at Cornell. IG: 28:23 Of course. LF: 28:25 But I was there. I do not think there were 50 percent women in my class by any means. I think they are up to 50 percent now. IG: 28:32 And at that time they had, maybe- LF: 28:35 I would have [crosstalk]s it was more than a handful. [crosstalk] was not 50 percent but there were a number of women, but I did not feel like I was owed the woman. There were other-other girls there. I had a great roommate, also from New York, upstate New York. I am still friends with her, but we were very-very different. IG: 28:55 What part of the law that you studied? LF: 28:57 I just studied everything. IG: 28:58 Everything. LF: 28:59 The general [crosstalk] and then I wanted to do litigation, and I got a job coming out of law school, with the help of my law professors, I could not- I do not think I could maybe get a job all by myself. I got a summer job with the help of my professor--came down to New York, lived in New Jersey with my parents. One summer, I stayed in Ithaca, and I did research with a law professor on gambling that was fun and esoteric. So, you know, I have pretty strong views on gambling, which is, you know, attacks on the poor, big tax, especially casinos and lotteries, just rips off poor people. Really. It is horrible. IG: 29:42 I would love to hear about that. I never thought I would never and I do not gamble, but, you know, it is but LF: 29:50 Especially underprivileged, poor people will take their last dollar and buy a lottery ticket. IG: 29:54 I see, I see, in that way. LF: 29:55 -in the hope- IG: 29:56 Yes, in the hope. LF: 29:57 Hit it big. IG: 29:57 Of course, of course. LF: 29:58 About my view about gambling, and maybe I learned this from my professors, that you should take the dollar, put it in the toilet, have some fun while it swirls around. Have fun watching it go down the toilet, because that is the same as buying a lottery ticket. Chances of winning. And, you know, casinos just suck money out of people. So he was pretty anti-gambling, but he was working on gambling laws, and that was a lot of fun. And then I got a really good job, because I went to Cornell Law School, not because I was that smart, and also, with the help of my law professors, and I went to be a litigator. That was (19)77 and I did a couple of law firm jobs, (19)77 to (19)81. IG: 30:44 Where were they? LF: 30:46 Yeah, I was with a firm called Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, which is very white shoe, waspy and had a lot of fun there. Learned a lot about big litigations. But, you know, I was a kid. I was a tiny little kid still friendly with those people. And then I went to a very small firm because I knew I would not be a partner there called Hertzog, Calamari and Gleason; I was there for a couple years. That was also a lot of fun, but a lot of work. And then I knew I want to get married and have children, so it would be better to be in a bigger firm which had better policies for that. So around (19)81 I got married and went to a big law firm, and then had my first kid in (19)8- IG: 31:32 What was the big law firm? LF: 31:35 I am sorry, I went in house. I was at a big law firm first, then a little law firm, and then I went in house. That is what I meant in house counsel, meaning I worked for Chase, Manhattan Bank. IG: 31:45 Oh wow. LF: 31:46 So I was in the legal department of Chase, and I remember my grandmother up near Woodstock right when I told her I was thinking about taking this big job in you know, would not be as much money, but it would be an in a big corporation as a junior person in the litigation area, and she said, it is good to hitch your wagon to a big horse. IG: 32:12 That is, I have heard variations [inaudible] LF: 32:14 It is good to hitch your wagon to a big horse. So then- IG: 32:18 That is a great expression. LF: 32:19 Yeah. So then I was at Chase Manhattan Bank, which became JP Morgan Chase, and I was there 24 years and three months, IG: 32:27 That is my bank. LF: 32:28 That is your bank. That is a good bank. IG: 32:29 It is a very good bank. LF: 32:31 And I went from being the junior-junior person in litigation, and then I had a team, and we did nothing but subpoena compliance, which means the bank would get subpoenas, we would have to supply the records and the witnesses. So I did that for years, and then I started to get interest interested in money laundering, and I described it as I was doing the main work I was given. But on the side of my desk, I was helping the bank with money laundering problems, and I was studying the money laundering laws on my own because they were so interesting. And then there reached a point in time, you know, I started doing that in the (19)80s and the (19)90s, and then the late (19)90s, I went to the general counsel before September 11. September 11 is definitely a sticking point. You know, it is a mark, it is a demarcation. It is before and after. But before September 11, I went to General Counsel and said, "We do not have anyone who does anti-money laundering compliance all the other banks do. Why do not we?" And he said, I said, "Let us go to Washington. Let us hire like the head of the SEC and he can become the head of money laundering here." And he looked at me and he said, "I want you to do it." I had no interest or thought that I would do it zero. But he looked at me and said, "I want you to do it." I said, "I do not want to do it," because at that time, there was a big difference between being a lawyer, which had prestige and money being a compliance officer. You needed a law degree to be a lawyer. You needed a BA to be a compliance officer. You could be a lawyer, but you could be a compliance officer with a law degree, but you could not be a lawyer without a law degree. I said, "I do not want to do it." He said, "I want you to think about it." I thought about it. I said, "Well, if he wants me to do it, maybe I should do it." I came back and I said, "I want a big raise. I want." And he was very strict. His name is Bill McDavid. I said, "I want a big raise. I want a big title, and I want a big bonus." He said, "No-no-no, but do it for a year, and then we will talk," yeah, so I trusted him. IG: 34:42 Yes. LF: 34:42 I did it. I never looked back. And I became the head of it is called AML, anti-money laundering and terrorist financing in around 2000 and then we had September 11, and I was at my at my office on September 11, and I-I was an initial user of the Blackberry. Do you remember the Blackberry? IG: 35:05 Yes. LF: 35:05 So I was what was called a beta user because of my ex-husband’s business. So I was running from the towers and typing messages to my husband at the time, and that is published in the New York Times. You can look it up if you Google me, portions of my transcript were published in the time, so we can look it up now. I can actually send you the full transcript. IG: 35:28 Yeah, I would love to see it. LF: 35:29 Yeah. Do you want to take a little tiny break? Because I do not do it now. I will forget but have never looked at. Can I send it to you privately? IG: 35:39 Yes. LF: 35:41 Okay. [crosstalk] IG: 35:44 We were at 9/11/(2001). LF: 35:49 Running-running and typing. IG: 35:50 But prior to that, you were a compliance officer for your bank. LF: 35:56 So I was a compliance officer, and that is what I have been since then. So I was very lucky in my career that I had a good mentor who told me to do it. I did it because I trusted him. And I worked at Chase until another bank was in trouble for money laundering violations, and then I went there to the other bank, which was ABN AMRO Dutch Bank, and they were in so much trouble, and I helped them. And because they wanted me to leave Chase after 24 years and three months, just short of a pension, they gave me a significant incentive so that I could retire. After I worked there for three years, that was my first retirement. Then then then I retired and traveled, and then I got bored, then I went back to work, then I retired, then I got bored, and I went back to work, and that is how I ended up in Boston. IG: 36:49 What-what are, you know, the most important, you know, abilities to become a compliance officer for big banks. What-what has served you in doing this work? LF: 37:07 Being able to pay attention to detail and IG: 37:10 To financial detail? LF: 37:12 Not even well, detail of all kinds. I am not so great. I am, you know, people think I know how- about bank accounts--I know a little bit. I do not know that much about money, but I do know about managing people. You know, it is really important to be a good manager once you rise up in these levels. And I was quite senior, not just by age. And, you know, I think I did learn a lot of that in Binghamton. I have to say. It is a direct line. IG: 37:40 It was a direct line, and it was your first exposure to being- LF: 37:41 To being a manager, being responsible for a budget, creating a budget, implementing a budget, creating a plan, implementing a plan, a work plan, you know to do it before. You know now it is far more complex with many programs that are supposed to help you, but you know, we really had to learn from the ground up. We did back then. And now, you know that I was doing it for several big banks. It became easier and easier IG: 38:16 Well, and the people skills, I think, remain the same, or they become more refined, of course, over time. LF: 38:24 I do think you need people skills, and that brings a lot of people down if they because they do not have people skills. And it is just dealing with people, you know, I used to call them my day family and my night family, and I think I was kind of the same with everybody. I tried to always be true to my basic self, and same with my kids, husband, workers, bosses, judges, lawyers, everybody, try to be the same. IG: 38:51 Well, you must have had a very strong sense of self. LF: 38:55 You know such a strong sense of self, but a good sense of maybe right and wrong and how you should be, . I think, I do not know. I think so. And now I retired again. I think it is third or fourth time in May, and I am just doing volunteer work now for José Mateo Ballet Theatre, which is something I wanted to talk about that, because at the ballet. We say everyone has a dance story. And my dance story started in Binghamton. So my first roommate in 1970 when I started was Linda Berry. Still friendly with Linda. I am going to go see her in the spring, and later in the spring, in California, where she lives, she might be a good person to talk to. also. She has had a pretty interesting career. She went, you know, West, but when we were kids in Binghamton, she was a dancer, and she was part of the first dance troupe with Bill T. Jones. Do you know Bill T. Jones? IG: 40:00 Yes, he is a graduate, is not he? LF: 40:03 He is a graduate, and he is, of course, extremely famous, and he is a MacArthur Genius. But in the beginning it was Bill T. Jones and Arnie Zane, his partner--Arnie, has passed away many years ago, but his company is still call Bill T. Jones and Arnie Zane and Linda and another woman whose name I forgot, they recently had a reunion in Binghamton, but it was kept very quiet because they did not want a lot of press. And I think Bill did show up, but again, it was quiet because if Bill shows up, then there is a lot of press, because he is quite famous, and if you have ever seen him dance, it is amazing. And his company, you know, he is older now, so I do not think he I do not know if he dances. I saw him, spoke to him recently at a performance, but that really started my love of dance. And watching them dance was so amazing, just amazing. So then I became, you know, consumer of dance. I would go to dance performances in New York, and again, not so much when the kids were little, but then I could really indulge my desire. And a year and a half ago, I met Jose Matteo, who is the choreograph choreographer for Jose Matteo Ballet Theater in Boston. But that was just random. I was not looking for him. I met him at a party. He graduated from Princeton in (19)74 like I graduated from Binghamton in (19)74 and I said, I am going to retire again. I want to work with you. So I am on the board, and I do a lot of work, and that is where I have to go today, because we are getting ready. I am putting together a big fundraiser for him. And so now I go to a lot of dance. I went to 27--I worked for Jose 27 Nutcracker performances during the Christmas season. I took a day off, and I know this sounds crazy, I went to see the Nutcracker at the Boston Ballet. So the Boston Ballet is our main ballet company in Boston, kind of like American Ballet Theater, and it has, it has much greater budget, and it is a much higher level than Jose, but Jose really provides accessible, inclusive ballet, which I love, really, really love. So that is, that is how I am spending a lot of my time. And I have a big party coming up Thursday, but tonight, Boston Ballet, that is tomorrow. I wonder what I am going to and also, so I do tend to overdo dance right now. Alvin Ailey was just here. You know Alvin Ailey? IG: 42:41 Yes, of course. LF: 42:42 So I run. I realized he comes to Boston and I have to go to New York. I go at least two times when he is here. Instead of having a season like a New York season, he has a week along. IG: 42:53 I see and-and your role is in fundraising. For them, you have parties, you have- LF: 42:58 Fundraising and behind the scenes and [inaudible] performances. IG: 43:01 How interesting. How interesting. So did this- LF: 43:03 It is fun. IG: 43:04 It is fun. So I know that we are running out of time. Are there any- LF: 43:10 I am happy to talk more [inaudible] with you. IG: 43:15 But for now, do you have any- you know what-what are some of the most important lessons that you have learned from your college years at Binghamton that you can share with our listeners who are most likely to be students that would help them in their careers? LF: 43:42 I would say, maintain optimism, kindness, right, being kind to people. I really, really try to be kind. And when I taught my kids, I know it sounds silly, it is nice to be nice. It was a pretty basic theme growing up, and I felt it in Binghamton also, you know, be nice to people. You want them to be nice to you. Be nice to them. It does not always work, but I think people, if you are steady, they see it and act accordingly, not always. You know, there is always going to be somebody at work that is horrible. But I was actually talking to a young person I met yesterday at a party, they are having a hard time at work, and the people are horrible. I said, "Well, try to let them just go over your head. Do not engage, right? Like water off a duck's back." Try to do that. Try to see their point of view. It is not always easy. I think I learned a lot of that being again, yeah, a lot of fun. And the other thing I want to tell you before we stop is that I spent a lot of time with Andy Plump. I do not know where Andy is now, but he was the editor of the pipe dream, and he was my boyfriend when I was at the radio station. So we had the radio station, and then his roommate was Michael Feigenheimer. Do you know that name? IG: 45:02 Yeah. LF: 45:04 Mike might have changed his name, but he was Mike Feigenheimer when he was in Binghamton, and he was the president of the student body. So between the president of student body, the head of pipe dream, and the head of we like controlled the media and the student body, but we all laughed about it, because there was no real any, no real power or control. There is no real anything. IG: 45:23 I think it is best to be president of body that has no control. LF: 45:30 And I also remember, I remember talking with who was the president at that time. He was really nice to me, the president of Binghamton. IG: 45:38 I think I know the name. LF: 45:39 Dean somebody, no, there was, I would have to come up [inaudible]. IG: 45:45 So there was a culture of niceness, you know. Not- LF: 45:48 My recollection- IG: 45:48 Not only intellectual- LF: 45:50 And generosity, sharing and all of that stuff, you know. And was it because we were all kind of hippies? I do not know. IG: 46:00 It might have been part of the (19)60s culture. LF: 46:04 I should ask my ex-husband, who was, you know, in Binghamton also with me. His name is Joe Korb, K-O-R-B but I can reach out to him and see if he wants to participate. IG: 46:17 No, I do not know. LF: 46:17 I am just throwing out these names- IG: 46:17 Right-right. IG: 46:17 Yes. LF: 46:17 I have no idea he does. He has also a very good memory of those years. And he graduated a year before me, I think, or a semester before me. So, you know, we started dating then, and we were together about 40 years, and we divorced, so we are still courteous. It was, it was a good period, you know it set the foundation for the rest of life. Maybe I will go back. Do you know Mike Needles? LF: 46:40 Now, Mike is, he was not, he is younger, a little bit younger. He was not there during that period. But I think he was on some-some committees. He was he was asking me to come up and visit. So maybe I will do that. IG: 47:00 Okay, I certainly will look up. So do we have any concluding remarks? Or do you think that we are done for now? LF: 47:07 Concluding remarks in terms of the influence of the (19)60s? IG: 47:12 In terms of the influence of Harpur College, you any words of advice, any life lessons that you would like to share you already spoke about- LF: 47:21 [crosstalk] great, but it was a nurturing, inclusive environment, and that set the tone for now. Living in the dorm was amazing. I had never lived away from home. Well, I have been away for some summer things, but not much, and then all of a sudden, you are totally free. You can do whatever you want. There was not, I do not remember storm restrictions. Felt like anybody could sleep with anybody or do anything they wanted. IG: 47:49 That that is a very different Harpur College than the one described by- LF: 47:54 The earlier (19)60s. IG: 47:55 The earlier (19)60s. LF: 47:56 By the time I got there in (19)70 things were changed. Maybe I am remembering wrong, but that is my recollection. IG: 48:03 That certainly is very different from the (19)60s graduates. LF: 48:07 Because they remember the- IG: 48:09 They were restricted, restrictive environment. Exactly LF: 48:12 No, I think I was just there at a good time. Really good time. So thank you. IG: 48:18 Well, thank you very much. LF: 48:19 Happy to talk more and- IG: 48:21 Okay. LF: 48:22 I will try to send you the World Trade Center document. IG: 48:26 I would love them. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lynne Federman Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the law; Harpur College – Alumni in banking regulation; Harpur College – Alumni at WHRW; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Federman, Lynne ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource For 30 years, Lynn successfully guided institutions under regulatory enforcement actions and helped create and implement anti-money laundering programs. At Harpur, she managed the student-run radio station, WHRW. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Lynne Federman.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-04 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 48:26 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/507981549ed7975e64bb7f91d5fb440c.mp3 5544de15fc704988f13922a3eb9e5574 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fa0c602798e8bea6ea32b5c66446a70a.jpg 6825097cbca85f77b53c009858618a06 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed M. David Graubard Year of Graduation 1966 Biographical Text David was an attorney at Kera & Graubard, specializing in bankruptcy, insolvency, Chapter 11, and debtor and creditor rights. He grew up in Monticello, New York. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: David Graubard Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 19 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) DG: 00:01 And now it is recording. IG: 00:02 Oh, it is recording. Fantastic-fantastic. DG: 00:05 Okay. IG: 00:07 So finally, sorry about that. [laughs] Okay, so um, for the purposes of this interview um, please state your name, your age and where we are and what we are doing. DG: 00:23 Sure. I am David Graubard, 73 years old, in my office at 7118 Main Street in Flushing, New York. 11367, we are here to work on an all an oral history of the 1960s. IG: 00:38 Yes. DG: 00:40 Right? IG: 00:40 Yes. DG: 00:41 Okay. IG: 00:41 Okay, so please tell me, David, where you grew up? Where were you born? DG: 00:47 Born and grew up in Monticello, New York. IG: 00:48 Oh. Um- DG: 00:49 Halfway between Binghamton and New York. IG: 00:54 Yes, yes. I know where it is exactly. So, who were your parents are they- DG: 01:01 My parents were- IG: 01:02 Where did they come from? DG: 01:04 They- my- they were both- I went to the same high school that my both my parents went to. IG: 01:09 Oh, really in Monticello? DG: 01:10 In Monticello. Most of them were raised in Monticello. Cannot say born, but they were raised in months in the Monticello area. My mother was raised in the formative years in White Lake, New York, my father from Monticello itself. IG: 01:25 And were they, you know, second, first, third generation Americans? DG: 01:33 My father was a second generation American. Actually, were first generation American. He was born in the Bronx. My grandparents were born overseas. My mother was actually born overseas. She came very as a one-year-old. IG: 01:48 May I ask, Eastern Europe, or Germany or DG: 01:52 Eastern Europe. My mother was born in a place called Barandovich, which was in Poland, White Russia depends upon the year. IG: 02:00 Right. DG: 02:00 And my father's family came from Romania. IG: 02:06 Very interesting. So um, did your parents go to college? DG: 02:13 No. IG: 02:13 What was their what was their occupation? DG: 02:16 My father was a salesman. He grew up- interesting. He wanted to go to college to become an accountant. And my grandfather, may he rest in peace, said, you have the family business to go into, which was a wholesale food line and in Monticello. And that is what he did. And my mother was a homemaker and a good one at that, and also bookkeeper in my father's business. And she came, later on, she came a dental assistant, and she works- IG: 02:42 Also, in Monticello. They stayed there? DG: 02:43 Oh, yeah. IG: 02:44 Okay, so were- what were their expectations for you about going on to- DG: 02:51 They very much wanted. Heard their children to go to college. An older brother who went to Ithaca college on a dramatic scholarship. He did not graduate, but he got into the computer business way back when, when it was in the early (19)60s, when the late (19)60s, when it was first coming into vogue. He worked for Bank of America. And my sister graduated, graduated from [inaudible] college. And my uncle, may he rest in peace, was a lawyer, and they wanted to- I wanted to be a lawyer like he was. IG: 03:22 The uncle was in Monticello or in New York City? DG: 03:25 No-no, in New York City. IG: 03:27 So, you had frequent contact with New York City. DG: 03:32 Oh, yeah, yes. IG: 03:32 So, education was valued in your family. DG: 03:36 Very much so. IG: 03:37 So, what were your reasons for going to Harpur rather than to City College or, you know, NYU- DG: 03:44 Uh, we had Harpur was I got a state scholarship, which covered the tuition. It was, you know, within a two-hour drive from my home in Monticello. That was it, basically. IG: 03:58 But why Harpur College rather than Albany or Buffalo? DG: 04:03 Harpur has a very, very good reputation, excellent reputation, and guys always fooled around you. If you slur that, people think you said Harvard, but [crosstalk] [laughter] IG: 04:18 [crosstalk] That is very funny. [crosstalk] DG: 04:21 Yes, that was really funny. IG: 04:24 So-so it had- and when did you graduate? Just for the purpose of the interview. DG: 04:29 1966. IG: 04:31 In 1966. So, the reputation of the College was established in the early (19)60s, or was it just- DG: 04:40 Very much so. IG: 04:41 Very much so. DG: 04:42 It was, it was, it was a pearl of the state system. IG: 04:44 And what was it known for Harpur College, before you went there? What-what-what-what did people say about it? It was a pearl of the state system. DG: 04:55 You got a good education. IG: 04:57 You got a good education. Did any of your friends from Monticello go there? Or did anybody that you know- DG: 05:04 Yes. IG: 05:05 -from New York City go there? DG: 05:06 Yes. IG: 05:06 So, you had friends who went there. DG: 05:07 Yes. I had a classmate, Robert Ethel, who went there. We roomed together- IG: 05:11 Uh huh. DG: 05:11 -for a year. IG: 05:12 from Monticello. DG: 05:13 Yes. IG: 05:13 Okay, good. So, when you first- DG: 05:15 [crosstalk] three rooms, we were two of the three. IG: 05:18 Oh. So-so when you first arrived to Binghamton, what was your impression that was there such a dramatic difference between Monticello and Binghamton? DG: 05:30 Well, now this, Binghamton was a city. Was still small townish. IG: 05:34 Yeah. DG: 05:35 But the college itself was off, you know, was investor offset, not offset, set off the highway, and it was a unit by itself. It was not within the city like you had NYU in the city. Was part of the New York City. IG: 05:49 Yes. DG: 05:49 This was a totally, total unit by itself. IG: 05:52 Yeah. DG: 05:53 That was a beautiful place. IG: 05:55 It was a beautiful place. Um, and so maybe, what was your first impression when you arrived there? Do you remember what it looked like to you? DG: 06:06 Remember it looked like. Yes. IG: 06:08 Yeah. So, describe that a little bit to us. DG: 06:10 [inaudible] came in there was the-the quad that they called it because they had the student center was in one place, and the science of science labs were off to the science was off to the right, as you looked at it. And then they had the- there was a there was a roadway that the left were all the dormitories and the luncheon hall. That is what I remember about the quad. And it had that walkway on top then, until you came down into the quad. DG: 06:44 So, it struck you as a beautiful place. DG: 06:49 Yes, physically, very beautiful. IG: 06:52 So um, just tell us you know about your early experience of the academics there. Did that make an impression on you? DG: 07:05 I think academics were very good. IG: 07:07 Very good. So, tell us a little bit more elaborate on that. What classes do you remember? Um- DG: 07:14 I can tell you. I will give you one, one thing that stands out in my mind. Okay, we took Spanish. Those who took- I took Spanish were the ones Spanish I and II, and there was a fellow there. I will not use a name, but he had, apparently, this is his third or fourth time taking this Spanish class, and he needed it to graduate. And he was a senior. IG: 07:35 Yeah. DG: 07:36 -and the professor, doctor, if I remember his name. I could picture his face. Just cannot remember his name. He had--called Rahman this on this, this senior, and when he-he we saw the test booklet of this particular student on this, on his desk after the after the exams, and it was a D with 19 minuses. And I do not think he counted minuses. I think he just gave him a D and then put the string of minuses so they could graduate. IG: 08:14 So, it was a generous place. DG: 08:16 Yeah, it was. IG: 08:17 It was academically a generous place. But it was- DG: 08:19 I mean, that is it was this particular thing, you know, I remember we had Melvin Shefttz. We had- was a very-very tough-tough history teacher, but it was very good. IG: 08:31 American history? DG: 08:33 No, world history. IG: 08:34 World history. DG: 08:35 World history and he gave me back a paper, and I remember it was I am sure it was a B minus or B plus. But he said to me, the comment was, you handled some very difficult material quite well, something along those lines. Think I still have that paper. I kept two or three to my papers that were interesting. IG: 08:58 Was that on your freshman or what- DG: 09:00 Freshman year. IG: 09:01 Freshman year, so you were encouraged in your academic. DG: 09:05 Yes, yeah. IG: 09:05 Did you know what you wanted to study? DG: 09:09 Yeah, I know I wanted to study--I loved American history. IG: 09:12 Yes. DG: 09:12 And I came to the point where I had to decide whether to do graduate work in American history or go to law school. I chose going to law school, which I probably regretted many years later. I really loved American history and, but I thought, but then, after my first year, they went to the trimester system. So, we were- IG: 09:30 After your first year. DG: 09:31 Yeah, after first year. So, we were a little thrown off on calendar wise, but nevertheless, we completed our academic studies within the trimester system. IG: 09:42 So um, just tell me a little- let us stay on the topic of academics and just tell us more about the faculty that made an impression on you, on your fellow classmates. DG: 09:55 Well, for American history, we had, we had one professor who took several times, whose name escapes me now, but yeah, that was the days of when you did your papers. He insisted that footnotes at the bottom of each page, and you had [inaudible] and any student because I typed the type, typing, I got back a paper from him in colonial history, and there was an A and some of the papers were wrinkled, and the only comment he made was, my apologies for the tea stains on your paper. IG: 10:28 Oh. DG: 10:28 I still have that one. IG: 10:31 Yeah, you still have that one. DG: 10:32 I still have that one. And, but I had a friend who was American, who was a history who was a history major, and he managed to avoid taking that professor, I remember, but it was interesting because he did. He- because that professor took- did the period histories mainly colonial and-and civil war, but he [inaudible] IG: 10:56 So, did you find the classes stimulating? DG: 11:01 Yes, yeah [crosstalk] IG: 11:02 You have discussions? DG: 11:03 I think the class were very good. And I remember it took- I had for history [inaudible] I had Professor, Colonel House [Albert House]. I remember that-that. And one thing he taught me, he says, he says, 'When you are middle of a project and you have to go to supper, or you are going to lunch or you have to do something else," he says, "Do not say, in your mind, wait until I get the end of something. Stop where you are. It will be much easier to pick it up and remember where you are we were from that point and go forward if you middle of something." And I have used that- I have used that quite-quite successfully in my professional career. You do legal research when they would have to go somewhere, stop in the middle of something. It is easier to pick up. IG: 11:44 It is easier to pick up than- DG: 11:46 Start and then stop and going to [crosstalk] IG: 11:48 It down to some symbol conclusion, or? DG: 11:52 Let us say, at the end attempt in the middle of a case, reading something. And instead of going to the end of the case, if I had to, have to go somewhere. I will stop there. I will come back, come back to it. I am coming back in the middle of something. It is much easier to pick up than they have said, "Oh, at the end of that case-" [crosstalk] IG: 12:08 How do you remember that where you left off? [crosstalk] Okay, that is very easy. Um, so describe your classmates. Where do you think that the majority, I know that the majority were from Long Island and New York City, and so who were, who were your friends at Harpur? Did you gravitate more to the people from New York City or from upstate? Did it make a difference? DG: 12:39 Well, I was, I was a member of the Adelphi men's club, so I had friends there. IG: 12:44 Yeah. DG: 12:44 Where I would say, mostly from the city, but there were from upstate, upstate as well. Not as many, but. IG: 12:52 Not as many. Do you, do you- did you feel any cultural differences because you were really straddling [crosstalk] DG: 13:01 Guys told me, "Graubard, we really consider you [inaudible] city guy." IG: 13:05 Yeah, because- DG: 13:07 I spent a lot of time in the city. DG: 13:09 My grandparents lived in Crown Heights, spent a lot of time as children. IG: 13:12 Exactly. IG: 13:12 So-so you were really comfortable in both cultures. DG: 13:16 Yeah. IG: 13:16 Do you feel that there were cultural differences between the- you know, students from the New York metro area versus the upstate students? DG: 13:27 [crosstalk] differences there were. IG: 13:29 And were these differences bridged, you know and- DG: 13:32 Yeah, I think there were guys who, guys who started, you know, going-going-going out with girls who had-had friends in, in the social clubs there. IG: 13:41 Yeah. DG: 13:42 That the-the Upstate downstate did not. IG: 13:44 Right. So, what did you do in this Adelphi club? What did you- DG: 13:48 It is just a matter of guys, yeah, they had social clubs there because they did not allow fraternities- IG: 13:55 Yeah. DG: 13:55 So, they allowed social clubs. So, it was- IG: 14:01 What did you do? DG: 14:03 I just had friends there. But not that- to me it was not a big deal. IG: 14:07 It was not a big deal. Where did you meet? At the Student Union? DG: 14:11 In the Student Union. IG: 14:14 So, who were your, you know this, this was a time of the, you know, the beginning of great change in America. And, you know, how did you really, how alive were you to the events outside of [crosstalk] So tell us about that. DG: 14:38 Well, being of draft age. It was Vietnam War. I remember at one point they offered they offered some in the geology department. They offered a course, a new course, aerial photography, which nobody wanted to take. They wanted to have it on their record- the draft board. IG: 14:57 That is very interesting. DG: 14:58 Yeah, I remember it, specifically. IG: 15:01 So, did you feel that the faculty sort of encouraged, or did it protect its students? Do you feel against being drafted to- DG: 15:13 I think there was one professor I remember who was willing to give, who's suddenly became more lenient with giving out A's. I think I remember that. IG: 15:26 Yeah. DG: 15:26 One-one particular problem, his name. I remember who he was, but I remember some discussion on that-that he was and that was to keep-keep students in school. IG: 15:37 Yeah, so-so. Oh, um, you know, so-so there was this encourage, there was, you know, a desire to protect, maybe this [crosstalk] DG: 15:50 I think [crosstalk] from that one professor. IG: 15:53 From that one professor. Did you feel that a lot of your classmates had the intention of going on with their study to avoid the war or? DG: 16:04 No-no, I think it was an academic- it was a state school was an academic place, so that most people intended to go on to further professional studies. IG: 16:13 Anyway. DG: 16:14 Yeah. IG: 16:14 Anyway. DG: 16:15 Yes. IG: 16:17 So, when you discuss the Vietnam War with your friends, what kind of things did you say, apart from being afraid of- DG: 16:24 You know, the most thing, it is terrible- the most thing I can remember is, you know, guys making comments like, "Okay, so I will take my master’s at Ho Chi Minh, university," or "University of Phnom Penh, " "Are you going next year to University of Phnom Penh? It became, not the joke, but- IG: 16:46 Yeah. DG: 16:47 -it was one way to alleviate the seriousness of the situation. IG: 16:51 What other ways did you alleviate the seriousness of the situation? DG: 16:54 I do not think there was any other way. I mean, I guess I was a little had a little less tension because my where I lived, there were a lot of guys who came out of high school and volunteered so that the quotas and my draft board were-were-were-were were filled up. They protected me a little bit more. IG: 17:17 Yeah. So, you know, but you do not remember any political discussions. Did you- do you remember whether, you know- DG: 17:29 Oh, listen, there were, there were a lot of, there was a lot, there were a lot of peaceniks, yeah, there were a lot of peaceniks on the campus. A lot of the peaceniks on the campus, you know, and they, and they had made banners, and they had sat ins and demonstrations. IG: 17:43 Tell me a little bit about that. DG: 17:45 Against-against the war. IG: 17:47 Yeah. So where did they sit in and do they go? DG: 17:51 They would have us not, not to obstruct. But you know, they were demonstration in around the campus. IG: 17:57 Around the campus, around the campus, and was this covered by the student papers or by local papers? DG: 18:06 Yeah-yeah. and what about the [crosstalk] of this covered by students, certainly by student papers. IG: 18:10 Did anybody march on Washington or- DG: 18:13 I think there were people. IG: 18:15 There were. So, did you participate in any of this? DG: 18:19 No. IG: 18:21 No. Why not? DG: 18:24 Because I was crazy. It was not for the war, but it certainly was. I thought it was something that unfortunately had to be done. It is unfortunate we had to get that with the way we got into it, with the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, and- IG: 18:35 Right. DG: 18:36 They expanded it. DG: 18:37 And that it turned to be a bog. It was me, a bogged down affair. IG: 18:37 Right. DG: 18:42 But it was, it was a sad situation, but, yeah, I guess I believed in the government and-and that is the thing that would was not from Harpur, but the thing that affected me most was at home. There was a fellow at the end of my block who wins in the army, and he came back, who was a changed person, and he would not go anywhere where his back was not against the wall. Or if he went into the restaurant, he made sure that he sat in a booth with his back again, and he was always protecting his back. IG: 19:15 You knew him after the war. Or when did he come back? DG: 19:19 He was younger than me, but I saw, I saw. IG: 19:22 What, when? During your college years. DG: 19:24 Yeah-yeah. IG: 19:25 What kind of impact did that have on you? DG: 19:28 It just brought home the reality of the-the unfortunate consequences of the war. IG: 19:40 Of the war. But it did not change your mind about America's involvement in the war. DG: 19:44 Not too much. I thought it was, I feel it was sad the way they ended, you know, that they could not come out, that they got bogged down and they could not it was, it was, it was, to me, it ended to be a useless event. IG: 19:58 A useless war. DG: 20:00 A useless war. IG: 20:01 But when did you realize that it was a useless? DG: 20:04 Halfway through. IG: 20:05 Halfway through. So, what year? Tell- remind me, were you in college or? DG: 20:12 I might have been in law school. IG: 20:13 In law school. Where did you go to law school? DG: 20:16 George Washington University Law school. IG: 20:18 So, and was that right after graduating from Harpur? DG: 20:23 Yes. IG: 20:24 So, what- how did you decide on that? Did you have encouragement from your direction- from your professors, or who advised you? DG: 20:33 No-no, I- we had to go to GW or? IG: 20:33 Yeah. DG: 20:35 Well, I applied to, I think eight law schools, got into four of them. I thought GW was the best. IG: 20:42 I see. I see. Did you have guidance from your professors or not much? DG: 20:47 I do not think much. IG: 20:53 What other courses did you take? You taught you took history courses, you know- DG: 20:59 Social science. IG: 20:59 -social studies, science. DG: 21:03 The one required science course, and then never walked into the science building after that. IG: 21:12 Any literature or language courses? DG: 21:15 English, literature, I remember a language of Spanish. I took two courses in Spanish. IG: 21:20 Do you feel that- DG: 21:21 And also, they introduced- Dr. Levin started a Hebrew course and Arabic course. It took Hebrew courses. IG: 21:29 When was it- there was a Semitic languages department. DG: 21:34 He started it. IG: 21:35 He started it. Uh- DG: 21:38 A language lab that they tested. And [crosstalk] IG: 21:44 I remember language lab. DG: 21:45 -tested with Dr. Levin. We took it seriously. Everyone else, it was a joke. IG: 21:51 Do you feel that you got a well-rounded education, or was there something lacking? DG: 21:56 No well rounded. IG: 21:59 How did that influence the future of your life, of your intellectual career? DG: 22:05 It broadened my horizons on how to approach things. IG: 22:13 Okay, so you know, how do you think- well, how do you think that Harper prepared you for your future career? DG: 22:22 A good academic basis. IG: 22:25 Uh, huh. Okay. So, we talked a little bit about the Vietnam War, and we talked a little bit about your involvement. You were not involved in any student activism? DG: 22:41 No. IG: 22:41 Really. Um, but around you, was there anything- what you know were, was there student activism about, you know, the civil rights movement? That was- DG: 22:53 Yeah, they, yeah, they had a [crosstalk] The Civil Rights was big at the time, and there was I mean, there were people who were active, who were active in the civil rights movement, I think. IG: 23:10 And how did that manifest? Was it on campus, or did they go to Washington? DG: 23:15 Both-both. I think, I think some guys might have gotten involved in the South. I am not sure. But, I mean, they had clubs, they had groups like that, that were [crosstalk] IG: 23:17 Was this sort of, you know, part of the conversation even, did it reach your circles? DG: 23:31 I do not think so. IG: 23:32 No, not so much. Were there any students of, you know, who were not from New York City and essentially white middle class, you know or upstate. Were there any people, any students of color or international? DG: 23:48 Yes. IG: 23:49 At the time? DG: 23:50 Yes. IG: 23:50 You remember? DG: 23:52 I remember one fellow from Nairobi, [hos phone rings] and he lost his-his hat in the winter. [he is talking on the phone] Hello. Yeah, okay, I am in the meeting now on and then have to go Lauren. So, I will be back at about 11:45 but then I have [inaudible] with my grandson, so I will have to speak to you about, you know, 12:30 or so. Okay, all right, okay, thanks. Bye. Bye. IG: 24:27 Okay-okay, so we were talking about a student from Nairobi. DG: 24:33 Yes, he was a short fellow, and he lost his-his hat. He had a hat with flaps, and I remember he drew a picture of it; he put his name underneath it, and he put lost, and he put it on the board. IG: 24:43 Was it ever found? DG: 24:48 So, I remember seeing it on the board IG: 24:51 Was-was, you know, you-you had traveled to New York City a lot. So, you know, seeing people of international, of different backgrounds [crosstalk] DG: 25:01 -was that much so also. IG: 25:03 You had that in Monticello, because Monticello was a summer resort, right? DG: 25:08 Summer resort, a lot of transients came through the and that was they opened up the racetrack, also [crosstalk] IG: 25:14 I see, I see. So-so that was not- um, but there were not any international or students of, you know, color, any Hispanic students that you remember? DG: 25:28 [inaudible] IG: 25:29 Yeah, no-no, not really. DG: 25:32 Hispanic? IG: 25:33 Hispanic, Black. DG: 25:37 Black, a few, a few. IG: 25:38 A few. DG: 25:38 Yeah. IG: 25:39 Yeah. DG: 25:40 But it is [inaudible] than I do not remember. IG: 25:43 No, okay, so did they, did they- did you have, you know, occasions to sort of mix as a larger group, or did you just stay in the class, you know. DG: 25:57 In the classes, and in the and in the student-student lounge, the cafeteria, not the dining hall, but the cafeteria in the in the Student Union. People are always getting together. IG: 26:12 How about, you know, women's rights, that probably was too early, [crosstalk] right? Do you remember that expectations for women at Harpur were different than they were for men? Were um- DG: 26:31 Nothing, no, nothing. I recall. IG: 26:32 Not that they were, you know, treated differently, necessarily, but were the women on campus? Did they aspire to the same sort of, you know, careers that- DG: 26:43 I think there was [inaudible]. I think there was no difference. IG: 26:46 No difference. DG: 26:47 There were a lot, here were a lot of women there. They were aspiring to the same thing the men were [crosstalk] IG: 26:47 They wanted to become lawyer [crosstalk] DG: 26:49 -education, yes, [inaudible] education. And professionals, yeah. IG: 26:57 And professionals. Okay, so, you know, tell us a little bit about your free time, free time on campus was- do you think that Harpur was a party school? DG: 27:11 I would not say it was a party- no, not a party school. I mean, there were, you know, the guys in geology, there was always a trip, a field trip. IG: 27:23 Right. DG: 27:24 You know and that was a that was always a big joke, because, you know, guys were buying beer, and that was always looked at as a as a fun thing to do, as opposed to an educational trip. IG: 27:33 Right. But you did not, you know, I mean, how did you spend your time socializing? You know, were there- did you just keep to your group of boys? DG: 27:45 They had- there were social events on campus. IG: 27:49 Like what? Describe for- DG: 27:52 I think, full weekend, spring weekend, [crosstalk] IG: 27:55 Yeah. So, what happened? I, you know, tell us. DG: 27:59 I was it was not I was not a big social guy. IG: 28:02 You were not a big- so you never attended any social events. DG: 28:05 I cannot remember most of what they were. But things changed at the end too. Trimester had a big effect on some of this stuff, I thin., IG: 28:13 Tell us about that. DG: 28:14 Well, through the calendars of Harpur were off the calendars of other college., IG: 28:19 Right. DG: 28:20 So, people who would want to go somewhere else, you know, find it difficult to synchronize, except-except for Thanksgiving. And for instance, we have right and then we weekend, those were the same all over. IG: 28:32 So-so these the trimester had a disruptive effect on your social life. DG: 28:37 I mean, when you if you had to interact with people, friends at other schools, in that in that manner. IG: 28:42 I see, I see. DG: 28:43 Internally, it was, you know, there was no difference. IG: 28:46 So, you know, after studying, did you spend time in your dorm room, or did you go to student union? Where would you spend your free time, even in your first year, you know. DG: 29:02 [inaudible] mostly just, I think, just staying the room sang about hanging around the student union. IG: 29:08 Did you date girls? DG: 29:10 Yes. IG: 29:10 Yeah. So, tell us, tell us, where would you go on these dates? Did you have a car? DG: 29:15 No, oh, I not, no, not the first year. Wait a minute. No, not the first I had the older Amber. I do not remember if I had that the first year. IG: 29:30 Well, maybe the second year you had a car. So-so, okay, so where would you go with your dates? DG: 29:37 There were not a lot of them. IG: 29:38 Yeah. laughs] DG: 29:39 For sure. That is for sure. There were not a lot of them. There were movies in Binghamton, Vestal. IG: 29:46 Yeah. So, you would go to a movie. Were there any cafeterias or restaurants that you would go to afterwards? Just to the movies? DG: 29:54 I did not do a lot of dating there. Anything was mostly geared towards, if the- towards events on campus [crosstalk] weekend. IG: 30:03 So, there were events on campus for students, like the whole, you know, I mean, but that is just once a year, right? DG: 30:10 Yeah, yeah. IG: 30:15 Were you were- what about the curfews? You know, a lot It has been said about the curfews for girls. DG: 30:23 You tell people, these days, students these days, you know, tell, I have. Tell my-my granddaughter is of college age now, and we talked about my-my wife tells she went to Stonehill College. And every single school in the country had curfews for women. You know, you said that you said it to girls now, and they look like you are crazy. IG: 30:46 Yeah, and the curfews were earlier than curfews for- DG: 30:50 Yeah, curfews were, I do not know if the men had curfews. I think that was when upon the contention. But I think the girl, I think the girls like the curfews. I really do, I think, because, again, it may, it gave them an excuse for being, being. IG: 31:10 They liked it. DG: 31:11 I think the girls liked it. IG: 31:16 That is very interesting, actually. DG: 31:18 During the week there was, I forgot what was, it was eight o'clock in the weekend, I think was 11 o'clock, maybe midnight. IG: 31:26 Would you go? How frequently did you go home during the semester? DG: 31:31 I went home for the Jewish holidays. I went home for if something happened. It was occurred in the family, a family event, it was easy to get home. So of course, before all the regular recognized weekend, holiday period., IG: 31:47 Right. Did you have anything like Hillel on campus? DG: 31:51 There was, there was a Hillel, yes, there was a Hillel. And I was a member of the Hillel and that was not, there was not a religious aspect to it. There was more social at that point. IG: 32:08 So, you know, where during the trimester period you had, you know, big breaks in the summertime, did you work? DG: 32:18 Yes. IG: 32:19 Did you pay for your school. DG: 32:21 Yes. IG: 32:21 Yourself. That is very impressive. So, what type of jobs did you have during this summer? And where were these jobs? DG: 32:28 Well, for two summers, I worked, I drove a bread truck for stomas bread, which is a bread company in the city, and in the summer there a lot of their customer base moved to the mountains. So, they had five routes in the mountains of two summers, I drove there. Oh, and then they worked in the men's store in Monticello, Jack brands men. So, he had the, he had the men's store there, and then the men's store at the Concord Hotel. Oh, so I worked in the two summers. I worked at the in the men's store in Monticello. IG: 33:10 Have you stayed in touch with any of your classmates from Harpur? DG: 33:17 Yes, one, particularly Martin Kera and you know, I became, became law partners after several years. IG: 33:22 Oh, wow. DG: 33:23 And to this day, to this day, we are in touch because we still have a common business interest. IG: 33:30 That is right, that is right. I think I reached out to him as well. So, were there any faculty that you stayed in touch with? IG: 33:40 How do you think your fellow classmates would remember you from that period? What would they how would they describe you? DG: 33:40 No. DG: 33:54 The Upstate Jewish boy, I guess you know. IG: 34:02 What does that mean, what does that mean? DG: 34:06 I was upstate, you know, came from Monticello. A lot of them knew Monticello had been up there in the mountains for the summers, worked in the summers. IG: 34:15 Okay, so that is one description. But would they have said that you are industrious, that you are funny, that you are the class clown. What? How [crosstalk] DG: 34:23 I think it is just maybe a nice guy. IG: 34:25 A nice guy. DG: 34:26 Always help, trying to help people. IG: 34:31 Any-any stories about how you help your classmates? DG: 34:33 One-one in particular, I do remember, and I tell my wife [crosstalk] there were guys who took, who would not take a Tuesday night class. In this in the in the spring, in the autumn semester, because they did not want that. They wanted to leave early for Thanksgiving vacation. I had a Tuesday night class, and I had an old Rambler, 1962 Rambler had to push button drive. And this was my-my, probably my sophomore year, I think. And you know these people around who would give rides home, and it was a bitterly-bitterly cold night, really cold. There was snow on the ground, and it was very-very cold by wind chill was probably close to zero, very cool. And I- the girl Beth, I forgot her last names. [inaudible] cut the back road. She was [inaudible] arriving. The [inaudible] was feeling a ride. We had a full car, I think Irene and a young couple with a baby who were going to Newburgh, so the car was full, and it was freezing cold, and it took a long time I let the car warm up even before I would let that baby in the car. So, it took a while, but we packed in. We all came to my house, and then they made calls as to where there were no cell phones in those days, as to people really picked them up at particular times. And my parents made sure they had something hot to drink, something to eat, until they all got picked up from where we were. IG: 34:34 That is very nice. So, um- DG: 35:20 Oh, one other time. IG: 35:48 Yes please. DG: 35:51 [crosstalk] Ronald Nathan, he was okay, and he called me in a panic that he-he had to do, finish off his social- a paper for a course, and he let it go to the last minute. "What should he do?" So, I typed with, if he, if he, if he wrote it out, could I type it right? I said, "I will be over in the minute." I was over this room with my typewriter. I sat down, I looked him and said, "Talk." He talked his paper. I said, “What are you doing?” I said, “You talk. I am going to type right." We did his paper that night, the whole time we finished, but he talked, and I typed. We got it done. IG: 36:43 That is fantastic. And you spend the whole night? DG: 36:46 Probably most of the night, doing that. IG: 36:48 until [crosstalk] DG: 36:50 Three in the ming. IG: 36:51 "That is great. Did you help organize his thinking? DG: 36:55 No. I just- IG: 36:55 You just typed. DG: 36:56 I just typed. IG: 36:58 Well, that is, that is still, that is a big help. What did you think? What lessons did you learn from this time in your life at Harpur College? I mean, you were at a very formative period, you know, then you stepped out into the adult world in the- in law school, I would think, in a different state and but so how did this form you? What were some of the lessons that you learned from this period? DG: 37:29 Well, that there are it just it built on what I learned in Monticello that went to public high school, that there were a lot of different people this world that have views and thoughts different than you, and you have to get along with them, and that you can build on your own strengths. I was on the swimming team, and I was not a stupid swimmer, and I remember judge-judge, trying to think the first, the first, the freshman year the coach, Dennis. Last name was Dennis, and he said, "You want to learn to dive?" I said, "Okay," so do it. I was not great at anything, but so he would try and say, when you, when you, when you went to a swimming meet, you had five required dives and then one optional. And they took the optional by putting the five categories in a hat, and they picked one out, and that became the optional dive. So, he, you know, we were not a big athletic school, and we did not go the big athletic schools. St Bonaventure was about the biggest name around from that we went. And he would always say, talk to the other coach and say, you know, you know, "Can we fix the optical dive at the at the easy one going forward?" So, some judges said, "Fine," it was okay. And I remember, one said "No." And I remember St. Bonaventure, the swimming pool was in, was in a downstairs area where the ceiling was, I think, lower than this. When you came off the board, you had to push your hands off the top in order to do certain dives. It was crazy, but-but I remember one particular time he said to me, he says, "David. "He said, "I am putting you in the individual medley." I said, "You know, I cannot." He said, "There were," he said "They are only put there were usually four swimmers, two from each side, and three got points. The fourth one got nothing. He said, "They only have one swimmer in the I am individual middling." He says, "All you have to do is finish and you get third place." He was, "Just finished," and it was, I remember, it was butter, back, breast, free. That was how they ran the butterfly stroke, breaststroke, the backstroke. And I could not do the backstroke to save myself, but I did, and it was, it was fun, but I remember, I swear I must have finished about three minutes after everybody, the second guy. IG: 39:54 So, what did that particular episode teach you? Did- DG: 40:01 Just perseverance. IG: 40:02 Perseverance-perseverance. So you know, and you know, for posterity, for the you know, future students and others listening-listening to these tapes, what do you think what-what were the most important lessons that you have learned in your life that you would like to share with these students who are considering Binghamton or who are at Binghamton? And maybe- DG: 40:37 I take a very different- I bring a very different perspective. I came from a very strong Jewish background, and I leaned more towards orthodoxy halfway through and I was going to transfer out, and things did not work. It just did not. And so that the last two years at Harpur, I restrict myself to a lot of things in within the Jewish religion that [inaudible] accomplish, such as not going out Friday night. I had a connection with Rabbi Bernard Brazil, who was the author the rabbi orthodox jewel in Binghamton. I told her son, he got me teach a Sunday school class there for a couple of years, which I did, and-and I connect with some of the people in the neighborhood who were, who were helpful to me. And so, I had a different ask- a different view of college the last two years that a lot most students that did not have. IG: 41:38 But that is wonderful. I mean, you really had a very full life and maybe a more adult life because you were so involved in the community- DG: 41:51 Yeah-yeah, I was. IG: 41:52 -in-in really ministering to this community. Could you talk a little bit more about this? Because this is very unusual, I think. DG: 42:01 Well, it became my own personal journey back to orthodox roots. And so, you know, I did not go out Friday night. I was a dorm counselor. If I had to be on duty on Friday night, I sat and I tried not to do things that would infringe. I restricted my diet there, even in the mess hall, very and supplemented it with my own food for cautious reasons. And just geared myself to going to guiding my life in the future based upon these religious attendance that became more important to me as I went along. IG: 42:46 And what- why do you think that that happened midway during your undergraduate career? What happened in your thinking? DG: 42:55 My brother got married, and he was not very you know, he did not have any religious influence. Had very little religious influence in his life. And I said to myself, I went to, went to the wedding in the Bronx. He said, "David, you can get married one day also." And, you know, thinking of my grandparents and their- my grandfather, Rabbi the [inaudible], who's a, I mean, who that is a ritual slaughter of animals. And I said, “You know what? They are really right. That is where I have to go,” and I did. IG: 43:31 So that is a very- so-so what? What would you tell these young people listening to your interview. What-what is important about that experience? DG: 43:45 Experience is that for me, as an Orthodox Jew religion, became a very paramount issue, and had to deal with it in the time constraints. I had a Harpur, and I did to the best-best I could. And then once I left and went to law school, I was able to broaden my religious life because I had a lot more freedom as to, as to where I was living, what I was eating, what I was doing. IG: 44:14 So do you think that the message might be, you know, sort of stick to your guns and do what you feel is important. DG: 44:22 That is if you want, if you want to generate, if you want to generalize it, yes, that would be a-a generalized comment. IG: 44:31 Where did you meet your wife? DG: 44:34 In synagogue in Washington, DC. IG: 44:36 Okay, that it was not at Harpur. DG: 44:38 Right. IG: 44:40 Have any of your children or grandchildren considered Harp- Binghamton? DG: 44:48 No, not in their scope. IG: 44:52 No, because it is- they are a different generation. DG: 44:54 Yeah, my three girls, my three girls, two went Stonehill College. One went to Queens. College. All went to seminary in Israel for a year. IG: 45:02 Oh, wow. IG: 45:02 Any of them- DG: 45:04 They are all married, and they are all really- IG: 45:07 Any rabbis in your family? DG: 45:10 I have two sons and [inaudible] the rabbi. IG: 45:12 Oh, wow-wow. DG: 45:12 Yeah, but-but they are not pulpit robbers. They are education rabbis. One is, one is head of a school in California, Los Angeles, the other is Dean of Students at Magen and David [Magen David Yeshivah School], which is a Sephardic school in Brooklyn. IG: 45:26 Wow. Well, do you have this is- it is, it is really a very interesting interview, and I think that we have gotten a very different perspective on Harpur College, you know, experience during the (19)60s, and anything that I have heard from other- DG: 45:48 I will tell you the-the one of the greatest things about Harpur College was not the college itself but was it stepping on the coat cement ceremony. IG: 45:58 Tell us about that [laughs] DG: 45:59 Because it was just wonderful. They had and Richie Walters, you know, and I, you know, to get up there to understand how they did things. Richie got up and he said, you know, we have this, whatever was that great Greek-Greek poet Testiclēs, and that is how that kind of stuff that they were. But it was, it was, it was a fun ceremony. It was the official end of winter, the beginning of spring. They stepped on the one with the coat they brought up ceremoniously up the stairs outside the Student Union, and they put it down. And Kestrel came over, and he stood up, you guys, very seriously, stepped on the coat. You look back and-and, yeah, people were laughing. It was fun, but it was nice. It was, it was a good hearted, fun thing to do that did not step on anyone's toes. You know, it was not, was not race oriented, it was not religion oriented. It was just something that someone thought of and carried out. IG: 46:56 And kind of brought unity to [crosstalk] DG: 47:01 Oh, everybody liked it. I you know the faculty too, though everyone, there was not anyone who did not like it. IG: 47:08 Yeah. Are there any concluding remarks that you have? Do you want to share anything? DG: 47:18 I can only say that there were turbulent times in the (19)60s. And, you know, we, as far as I know, we all survived. There were guys at Harpur, and I look back now, and there are people who took different directions, because some kind, some guy, some guys could handle being away, and some guys could not. Some guys could handle a breakup with a girl more than others. And was, there were turbulent times, you know, in the whole country, and Harpur was, was part of it. IG: 47:54 But just-just you mentioned something that, you know, some, some guys could handle breakups and these difficulties, others could not. You know, were there any support systems for this outside of, you know, maybe that that is why, you- DG: 48:15 I say that because I remember one particular guy, and I think he eventually, I do not think he graduated. I think he had difficult times. Eventually left school. I remember one situation, and he was having a very difficult time, because he was going out with a girl, and something happened, they broke up and-and he took a very-very difficult, very poorly. But, you know, there was no, was no, you know, support system. You know, some would say, of course, see the school psychologist. I guess there were some people. I do not think they had a system at that point, but there were people who felt closer to me, to some professors that they could talk to on a friendly basis, as opposed to academic basis. IG: 49:04 I see, I see. And maybe they did not have, they did not think of, you know, religion as a support system. Maybe. So- I David, unless you have some, some other gem that you want to share with us. I thank you so much- DG: 49:24 One thing I do remember Professor, I think his name was Roma. He had a baby face-face, yeah. And he was like a philosophy- philosophy professor, and he looked so young. And one thing he said in class was, you know there was some guys who did something about running, I do not know a woman's garment at the flagpole, but not on, not on campus. I think off campus somewhere. And he said, "Now, if someone like me did it, you know, they throw the book on them, but if the students do it is a prank." IG: 49:53 [laughs] DG: 49:53 Yeah. So, I will just leave my closing remarks are. Uh, make the best of your, of your, of your, of your education. Live with your convictions and go forward. IG: 50:08 Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with M. David Graubard Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Graubard, M. David ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource David was an attorney at Kera & Graubard, specializing in bankruptcy, insolvency, Chapter 11, and debtor and creditor rights. He grew up in Monticello, New York. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context David Graubard.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-02-19 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 50:12 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9188b5a18f78ad90c188e0650897ad58.mp3 9edbb3625af9323648635dc62fe856b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-08-29 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mabel Payne Year of Graduation 1971 Biographical Text Mabel Payne is owner and president at Research, Analysis, and Development in Education (RADE) Associates, LLC. After graduating from Harpur College with a degree in history, she completed advanced degrees in education from SUNY Albany and in organizational psychology from Teachers College, Columbia University. She has extensive experience in designing and implementing professional development and train-the-trainer events; post-secondary career and educational group and individual counseling; grant proposal design; and report preparation and editing. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mabel Payne Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Payne, Mabel ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Mabel Payne is owner and president at Research, Analysis, and Development in Education (RADE) Associates, LLC. After graduating from Harpur College with a degree in history, she completed advanced degrees in education from SUNY Albany and in organizational psychology from Teachers College, Columbia University. She has extensive experience in designing and implementing professional development and train-the-trainer events; post-secondary career and educational group and individual counseling; grant proposal design; and report preparation and editing. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Mabel Payne.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-08-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 66:10 minutes IIIF Item Metadata UUID 287d99d8-f2b6-488b-a7a1-12ab7d7add1c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/777f545d3c4124d217e0435f9adbcca1.mp3 268280458446fae268623115b1aadc3d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-06-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Michael McGoff Year of Graduation 1969 Biographical Text Dr. McGoff is senior vice provost and Chief Financial Officer for Binghamton University. His doctorate was in computer-oriented onomastics, the study of names, which he programmed to study the indigenous languages spoken in New York State. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni from Broome County; Harpur College – Alumni in linguistics; Harpur College - Alumni living in New York City. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni from Broome County; Harpur College – Alumni in linguistics; Harpur College - Alumni living in New York City. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Michael F. McGoff Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 12 June 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Okay-okay. MM: 00:02 My name is Michael McGoff, Senior Vice Provost and Chief Financial Officer for Binghamton University. We are in my office, Administration Building 711 and today is June 12, 2018. IG: 00:15 Okay. Thank you. So, Dr. McGoff, where did you grow up? MM: 00:22 I grew up here in Binghamton. I was- my grandparents came from Ireland to work at Endicott-Johnson Shoes. My- they did and my father was born in the south side of Binghamton. When he got back from World War Two, he became a Binghamton policeman, and married my mother, and they had nine children. I am the eldest. IG: 00:48 That is tremendous. So, was your mother a homemaker? Or did she work? MM: 00:55 She worked in some as a bookkeeper, accountant. It was a finance company, but most of the time, after you have nine kids, you need to be home. IG: 01:06 I would think so. So did your and-and you mentioned that your grandparents are from Ireland. What about your mother's side? Are they Irish? [crosstalk] MM: 01:18 My grandparents were from Ireland. That was my father's side. My- her grandfather was from Ireland, and her grandmother was from Ireland. IG: 01:26 Do you know what part of Ireland? MM: 01:30 My- well on the paternal side, my grandfather was Monahan, and my grandmother was Claire. I believe that the um, my grandfather's side, I would have to look it up. Actually, I think it is an ancestry, but I cannot remember. IG: 01:46 Okay, that is fair enough. So, in your family, was education encouraged? MM: 01:55 It was not discouraged. I was a good student when I was in high school and in an elementary school, my father had nothing past high school, my mother had nothing past high school, and I was encouraged to do what I wanted to do. IG: 02:12 I see. So did the conversations in your house revolve around local events, your family events. Did you talk about? MM: 02:26 Well, my father worked three jobs, so he was not home very much. IG: 02:29 I see. [crosstalk] MM: 02:32 As I was growing up, you know, most of the talk, I think, was about school and about family. There were, you know, current events, I guess so, right, yeah. IG: 02:46 So, what were you a big reader? Did you like certain subjects? MM: 02:53 I always read a lot. I still enjoy reading. When I finished high school--I went to St Mary's Elementary School and was encouraged by the teachers there to study, and I always did well in school. IG: 03:12 Right. MM: 03:13 And then when I went into high school, I went to something called St. Patrick's Academy, which closed in my sophomore year, and I graduated from Catholic Central in 1965 it was, I was among the first graduating classes from what is now Seton Catholic Central High School when I [inaudible] just opened. IG: 03:41 Where did your number in the what-what number child were you? MM: 03:45 I am the oldest. IG: 03:46 You are the youngest. MM: 03:47 Oldest. IG: 03:48 Oldest-oldest. MM: 03:49 And my father died when he was 52 so when any girls got married, I was the patriarch. IG: 03:56 Oh, so who- what did the- your other siblings become? I am, I am watching. MM: 04:06 No, getting a message. Two of my brothers became firemen since retired, one of them is still very big in sports. He was division one referee in basketball. He also is the assigner for still is the assigner for soccer and basketball, and most of central New York for referees. I have a- there is diabetes in my family. I have a brother Jim, who had severe diabetes, type one, and had a rough life with it, and he was disabled, but everybody is still around. My sisters went into the health sciences, worked in the hospitals. IG: 04:57 As what, doctors? MM: 04:59 The technicians, technicians, yeah, and a brother, John, who was longtime fireman, who went back and got his bachelor's and then his master's [inaudible] all the way, and ended up not being able to do what he wanted to do, because if he taught, he would not be able to collect his retirement as a fireman. So, he ends up he is the- whatever the title is, Head of Education for what I know a Spectrum was Time Warner, the others. Let us see, uh, some-some of them had some higher education, and no one finished a degree, except for John. IG: 05:52 So as the head of your family, by default, you-you sort of stepped into your father's shoes. MM: 06:02 For somethings [crosstalk] IG: 06:02 Obviously-obviously. No. Okay, so how did that change your direction? Did you feel more the weight of responsibility on your shoulders? Did that determine certain interests? MM: 06:14 When he died, I was already was not living there anymore. IG: 06:20 I see, I see. MM: 06:22 In fact, by then, when he died, I had already finished my bachelor's, I think, my associates, my bachelor's and my master's, and was working on the doctorate. So, I was living someplace else. I actually had been married, and she and I were both graduate students together. IG: 06:45 Okay, so let me backtrack, then. Did you have a sense of what you wanted to do when you were graduating high school? MM: 06:55 No, in fact, I was surprised. I must have applied, though I do not remember it. I was surprised at the high school graduation that I got a scholarship to go to Broome Tech Community College, where I went for a couple of years and-and at the same time, was here on campus, studying and doing other things here on campus. And then I went out to New Mexico for a short time. IG: 07:23 To New Mexico? MM: 07:25 New Mexico. Yeah. IG: 07:25 Where in New Mexico? MM: 07:27 New Mexico State University in Las Cruces. IG: 07:29 Oh, that is where my daughter lived for a while. MM: 07:31 I was going to go to school there, and I decided that that the education was not as good as New York. So, I came back. IG: 07:39 But it is a beautiful place. MM: 07:40 It is beautiful. As long as they keep the water running all the time, then they can have grass. IG: 07:45 So, when were you there? What are the years that you were there? MM: 07:48 I was not there for a whole year. I was there for weeks. Let us see when was it? It was 1967, summer and fall of (19)67. IG: 08:04 So, you know, let us backtrack. So, did you have a you know, why did you decide on Harpur College? MM: 08:19 I was in New Mexico. I had already been- I was with the woman that I ended up marrying a few years later. We both decided that New Mexico State was not the right place for us. We had both been admitted to Harpur. We both drove back to New York day and night until we got here to start classes in August, late August, early September, somewhere around there. Yeah, that is when I forgot my first job and on campuses. IG: 08:51 So-so, wait and you got your first job. So, you were working while you were a student. What-what? MM: 08:59 I was self-supporting. IG: 09:00 You were self-supporting. You were self-supporting. That is not surprising. Coming from a family that- MM: 09:08 Yeah, they did not have the resources help, although I had scholarships, and I just- IG: 09:13 You had a regent scholarship, MM: 09:15 A what? IG: 09:15 A Regents scholarship? MM: 09:17 Yes, I had a, I do not remember exactly what the title of the thing was. Tell you the truth, it was a scholarship that I got in high school. But I do not, not sure they called it Regent scholarship, whatever. Yeah, but I needed to work or I would not have lived. IG: 09:38 So, you had this idea that Harpur College and New York education was superior. Did you have an idea? Did you have a direction? Did you know what you wanted to pursue? MM: 09:48 Well, to tell you the truth, as I said, I grew up in Binghamton, and at that time, most people in the area did not hold the college in very high regard. In fact, my father was a Binghamton policeman, and right around that time, Herbert Aptheker had been here. And so, there were a lot of people that just thought this was a communist place. A lot of communists, long haired hippie. I do not think they said hippie at the time, but long haired, sandal wearing communist, but I knew that had a good education, and I knew that I wanted to come back to it. IG: 10:29 No, did you, did you? I am just wondering you know how you mentioned that you went to Catholic High School, that your siblings went to Catholic high schools. MM: 10:42 Actually, they did not. IG: 10:43 They did not. MM: 10:44 No. IG: 10:45 They did not. MM: 10:45 Because at that time, my brother Kevin did, but with my brother Jim and my father being sick and then dying, there was not enough money to pay those tuitions, so they all started going to public school, and all of them graduated from public high school. IG: 11:07 Do you think that your family was particularly Irish? Was there a sense of Irish culture in your family? IG: 11:14 Yes. IG: 11:15 How was that expressed? I was I was getting around that through Catholic- MM: 11:19 My-my-my grand my paternal grandfather and paternal grandmother were still alive. My father was very close to them. They had very thick brogues, which a lot of people would probably not understand now. We just spent a lot of time there. There were also like cousins that visited from Ireland and so on. Cousins of my father. So, you know, it was clearly Irish. And my grandmother, on my mother's side, was very proud of having been Irish. Her father came from Ireland, and he was he drowned. He drowned in trying to get them dinner by shooting a duck in a river. And so, she had to quit high school about 14 or so, something like that, in order to help the family. But I do not know how she got so smart, but she helped me learn algebra when I was in high school, even though I do not think she ever, I do not know what she finished, eighth grade, seventh grade, I do not know, but all of them were very Irish, yes. IG: 12:32 So also, you know, what was the sense in your family that you know you said everybody was proud of being Irish? What were they? Were they proud of the of the rich culture of the or their personal sort of stories of survival, of surviving through struggles? What do you think it was? MM: 12:53 Just a, the love of the heritage, I guess. My I have to admit. I mean, I do not think of myself as Irish very often. But when my wife and I did ancestry, and I found out I was 99.4 percent or 93 percent something like that, Irish, I was proud of it. IG: 13:17 Right. MM: 13:18 Yeah. IG: 13:19 Have you ever heard that the Irish and the Slavic nations were one? There is one theory that they were once one. They came from the same family tree. MM: 13:35 I never heard that now. IG: 13:39 Yeah, MM: 13:39 It is interesting. IG: 13:39 It is interesting. It is very interesting. MM: 13:39 My wife, my present wife-- have been married 39 years her-her grandparents and family members came from Russia, Ukraine, whatever it was at the particular time to work at Endicott Johnson, so I have got this whole kind of, we were married in a Russian Orthodox Church. So, I have got this whole- IG: 13:57 Oh, which, which one? MM: 13:58 It was called our mission of the Blessed Virgin that is over on- IG: 14:02 That is where [crosstalk] that is where I go. MM: 14:04 Okay. IG: 14:05 So that is very interesting. It is a very interesting connection. So, I was just trying to get a sense of your background and sort of you know what the ethos of this family was, and- MM: 14:19 It was very close family. I do not know that we thought about being Irish and all that as much as we thought about taking care of each other. It is interesting. People would never [inaudible] a big family. I would come home and, you know, 11 people were living there, and yet, within a few minutes, you would say, “Where is John?” It was just like; it was like a hive or something. [laughs] IG: 14:42 Right-right. I can imagine. And so-so, you were in school. You were at Harpur College, after, you know your- MM: 14:55 Came back from Mexico. IG: 14:56 From New Mexico, and what did you know, and you had this, obviously, you had heard that, you know, Harpur College was full of communists and hippies. What was your first impression of the school? I mean- MM: 15:14 My first impressions of the school was a lot of hard work, but it was lot of folks from downstate, which was different for me and proud to be here. And the- I said a lot of hard work, it was a lot of hard work. And also, I was working full time, but it was just filled with all this stuff to learn. I mean, I took a lot of different courses. I studied a lot of different things. I love language. So, I was involved with early on, with folks in the English department, mostly, but I ended up in my later, in my undergraduate and then in my graduate work, studying languages. So- IG: 16:05 Which languages did you study? MM: 16:07 Old High German, Old English, Middle English. Did some Frisian I studied some- IG: 16:15 How interesting. MM: 16:16 [inaudible] and some Algonquin. I did some my dissertation was in languages, or actually it is in an area called onomastics, which is I used I was, I was working in the School of Advanced Technology. So, I had a background in computing, and so I was able to marry computing and onomastics, which is the study of how my study was how names through bilingual interaction, names pass from one language to another, typically becoming meaningless, but also being able to carry that language into a different language, able to study the first language. My-my teacher was a guy named Bill Helm, or Bill Nicolaisen [W. F. H. (Bill) Nicolaisen], who ended up just dying here about a year ago, a year and a half ago in Aberdeen, that he taught here for many years. He came from Ohio State, and we studied together for years. I studied with him. IG: 17:20 What-what you know, what predisposed you? I mean, this is serious linguistics at an undergraduate level, which is quite unusual. MM: 17:30 Yeah, there were no linguistics programs, so, yeah, work with individuals, as I said, Old High German, Old Norse, with some faculty members who were here. IG: 17:40 Do you remember their names? MM: 17:42 Bill Snyder. I worked with him on some Sanskrit and some Old High German and-and Old Norse. I did [crosstalk] IG: 17:53 That is phenomenal. That is really phenomenal. I really [crosstalk] no, no, that is okay, that is, that is, but this is at the undergraduate level. MM: 18:03 We started that stuff at the undergraduate most of the work was at the graduate level. Yep. IG: 18:11 Most of the work- MM: 18:11 At the graduate I mean, I was just getting the background in order- IG: 18:11 So, at the undergraduate level, were you studying old German and Frisian and or did you were you exposed to that in graduate school? MM: 18:21 In undergraduate I mostly like, I work with Bill Snyder in German, and we did some, some work and older versions of German I did, let us see what I do Middle English with, with I um, with faculty here. And then I got introduced to Bill Nicolaisen, and I started working with him on some things. And the old Norse was in my first year of graduate school. IG: 18:55 That is fantastic. MM: 18:56 So, I was here all the time. IG: 18:59 So, Binghamton, but that is, that is tremendous. So, Binghamton actually had a strong linguistic presence. Were these- MM: 19:09 It was-there were no programs in it, and so to say strong. We had strong faculty members. It had backgrounds, but it- IG: 19:17 So, they were teaching these subjects out of their language programs, right out of the German program or English programs. MM: 19:25 English program, yeah [inaudible] Barney Huppe [Bernard Huppe] is the first one to introduce me to older languages, Middle English. We did Chaucer and some other things. Bernard F Huppe, he was one of the leading lights of the early faculty members here. IG: 19:42 What is really interesting is that you were kind of ahead of the curve in that you combined your interest in onomastics with computer you know, generated what- to study. MM: 20:01 Yes, when I first started working here in my first job in 1967 August in 1967 was in the school, the brand-new school of advanced technology, which the current incarnation is the Watson School. And so, I worked for a man named Walter Lohan, who was the first dean, and at the same time was working. We hired a- was a little while later, but we hired a guy named John McHale, who was colleague of Buckminster Fuller, and John was a sociologist who was a futurist. So, when I worked with him for quite a while, I think they called me a research associate, but I read for him, and he had a need to, you know, constantly be reading things. So, we, there were some of us who read things in order to, you know, get rid of the chaff and give him the pearls through the- we at the end of the day, he would have a whole bunch of things to take home that I had sort of filtered out for him so they get so they did not have to read things that were just worthless. I read a lot of things for him. Same time, I worked for Walter Lohan, who was, who was the Dean of the School of Advanced Technology, and eventually, at the end of the life of the school advanced technology, I was acting dean for a couple years. IG: 21:36 It is very interesting. You know, there is so much that I want to ask about. MM: 21:43 I am jumping all over the place. IG: 21:44 No-no. And, you know, it is a personal interest of mine, because I, too, studied linguistics many years ago. So, for example, what was and you got your doctorate in linguistics, what- MM: 21:56 The doctorate is actually mean, this was, what was what was the title, computer-oriented onomastics survey. It was sort of independent study, kind of thing that I had, I did with Bill Nicolaisen. And then, in fact, I am still involved in, I am still on the editorial board of onomastics journal. And um- IG: 22:17 So, what were your some of your findings in your thesis, you know, if you could summarize this in in a nutshell. What-what did your research find? MM: 22:28 Well, that is about 300 and some pages, but I have not looked at in a long time, but it is. What I did was a study of the place names of New York State and the Aboriginal languages and some of the New World, world languages that came here, and was able to trace some things back, how the names came to be, what the language was about, and so on. But I was able to do it on many, many, many, I do not know how many 1000s of names, physical features and so on, and use the computer to be able to analyze it. And nobody at the time was using computing. So, it was a hot topic. And I went around a lot and talked with folks about it, introduced some people to it. And in fact, Peter Raper, who is in South Africa, he does South African onomastics. He was I- he came here and I introduced him to computing, and he is still using-using it. IG: 23:35 So let me understand. So, you had, you know this corpus of words from names from various Aboriginal languages. MM: 23:44 Not only all the names, yes, but- IG: 23:48 Not only the names, but the languages themselves. MM: 23:51 That I was interested in the languages, we use the names to get to the languages. IG: 23:54 To get to the to the languages. So, you reconstructed the language through the names, or? MM: 23:59 In some cases, you know, I do not know, pick on something Susquehanna, the Susquehanna River. IG: 24:04 Yeah, right. MM: 24:07 The, it does not matter to me. It did not matter what the what it etymologically meant. I was interested in, like, hannah is pleonastically repeats river right. Hannah is river that kind of thing was what I was interested in. You are taking me back a long way. IG: 24:27 No-no, but I hope you do not mind. So, this is, you know, we can- MM: 24:33 So, you can study the languages and reconstruct things about the languages by using what was brought into our everyday language and changed over time. See, you know, you can trace the changes and things like that. People do not know what they are saying when they say Susquehanna. What it means or where it came from, anything else. But you can, that is what I was interested in. IG: 24:57 Right. And you were. You know, did you find, did you find evidence of-of, you know, a people's history, of their migrations, of their contact with other, other tribal cultures? MM: 25:18 And you can trace, like you know, you can trace where dialects of the Iroquoian language, for instance, where they were based on the names that are still the areas where those dialects [inaudible] IG: 25:33 Did you present your papers and at linguistic conferences? MM: 25:38 Um, onomastics conference, yes uh huh. I [inaudible] international at the time, was called International Congress of Onomastics Sciences, big one in Ann Arbor one year. Just about every major city and the country where there were conferences would be middle- we were mostly associated with MLA in the early years, and then the conferences that I went to, and then in the later years, within the last 25, 20 years, we moved to LSA, Linguistic Society of America, and so that we meet now in January--used to meet during the Christmas break, but that is when MLA met and spoke at MLA, various places like that. IG: 26:28 Did you- are you acquainted with the work of Chomsky [Noam Chomsky]? Did that influence you do anything MM: 26:34 [crosstalk] here, and I heard him speak, probably in the (19)60s. IG: 26:38 Tell us about that. That is wonderful. MM: 26:42 He gave a lecture, and I believe was Cassata Sioux. I had to be in the late (19)60s sometime in there. Do not remember much of what he spoke about probably was more social than it was linguistics. But- IG: 26:56 Even then? MM: 26:56 Yeah, right, oh yeah. He is- had on things then, yeah. A lot of people came and spoke-spoke in Binghamton over the years. Then I tried to go as many as I could. One that comes to mind is Christopher Hitchens. And lots of, lots of big names came. IG: 27:15 In the (19)60s? MM: 27:16 (19)67. Yeah, it was, it was a different- the university was a different place than during those years. It was mostly known for the humanities; the sciences were there. And of course, you know when, but in the like, for instance, that we went through a horrible time in (19)76, 1976, (19)75, (19)76 when New York State was financially going south, because New York City was-was having difficulty, and we had huge cuts here one and would not remember what it was--must been the fall of 75 we hired six assistant professors in our school, and in May of (19)76 we laid them off. That was that kind of bad times. And so, it was big on humanities. But my point was going to be that during those bad times, the sciences and the nation engineering school and things like that, they were the ones taking the hits. We had a PhD in physics, which we got rid of at that time. Now that would not happen, but that is what happened then, because Harpur was well known for the humanities and some social sciences, but most humanities are big, very I mean, it was the most famous English department in the country, I think in public schools. IG: 28:49 It had a great reputation from it had the reputation of being an elite, the equivalent of an elite private college. That is what I hear from almost all the alumni I speak to. MM: 29:04 Yeah, they call it the public Brown or something like- IG: 29:07 Something like that. It was based on the University of Chicago system, was not it? MM: 29:14 Partially also the collegiate was based on the collegiate colleges were based supposedly on Oxford, but there were, there were a lot of people who thought a lot about education in those years, just and higher education and how students learn and that kind of thing, much more discipline oriented now. IG: 29:38 Did you-you know, I imagine that you were, in part, influenced by your family's perspective on the college you know, the academic community here and the students. Did this perception change over the years? I mean, how did you regard these hippies and communists? MM: 30:05 Well, I never thought of them that way. I was quoting the local people. Was interesting, because the woman I told you about became my first wife. Her- when we started, we went out to New Mexico. We had gone to school together at Broome. We came back here. We were students here, but her father was a violin maker and played viola in the orchestras. Her mother was a pianist and taught music. She was a dancer herself and a violinist and so but all of her parent’s friends, many of her parent’s friends, were also university faculty, like Ken Lindsay and Christine Lindsay were Ken started the art programs here. We would spend a lot of time with them, either up at the cottage, or they would be coming over Harry Lincoln, who was the beginning of the music programs here, they would be there too. So, I would he even when I was not on campus, I was involved with people from on campus. So, I thought of that. I just came to think of it as a family. And I will have been here 51 years in August, and- IG: 31:18 That is tremendous. MM: 31:21 [inaudible] it is. It was. They were different times, but they were still did not seem to be. It was a much more close knit. I think when I stepped on campus first time at (19)65 there were like 22- 2200, 2300, 2300 people here. Now there is 17,300 students, let alone a couple 1000, more than a couple 1000 people that work here. IG: 31:50 And you never considered leaving when you, for example, earned your PhD. Did you seek employment elsewhere? MM: 31:58 Well, when I finished my doctorate. I was, let us see, (19)79 I was an assistant dean already. So, I became an assistant dean in (19)76 during all the issues, all the problems and people were being laid off, and I took on new responsibilities. And so, by the time I got the doctorate, I was married second time, and have been married now to my wife, Donna Pylypciw, who for 39 years it will be so, I guess I have forgotten the question. But no, I this was, I mean, I had, I had possibilities of jobs in other places. In fact, went out to Michigan to interview for a job out there. But just this was home. IG: 32:53 Yeah, I see. MM: 32:54 I think even though job was home. IG: 33:00 How did you get involved in the financial aspect of administration? MM: 33:11 Well, as I said back in the (19)70s, when I stepped into administration from some of the various other jobs I had had. You had to know something about financials. I had lived through the Rockefeller years, when there was plenty of money up here on campus, but I became assistant dean and then associate dean, and so the fight I was, at one-point, Associate Dean for Administration and academic affairs. I think it was the other way around Academic Affairs and Administration. And so, all the financials were reporting to me budgets and that kind of thing. So, I got into it. And when I became acting dean of the School of Advanced Technology, again, you know, I had to oversee, but at the time, was probably like a five or $6 million budget, something like that became much larger over time. And now, when I the provost at the time, when I was Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and Administration in the Watson school from (19)83 we started the school in (19)83 so for like 15, 14, 15, 16, years, I was in the Watson school. And then in 1999 the provost at the time, Marianne Swain, asked me to come over and be vice provost. I think we were called Associate Provost at the time. And I took on the academic all the academic budgets, and then in 2014 Harvey Stinger decided, when a good friend of mine and colleague, Vice President for Administration, Jim Voorst VORs [James Van Voorst] left, Harvey decided that he was going to put the financials underneath Academic Affairs. So now all of the all the financial side, reports to me. So, you know, I would have some courses and those kinds of things, but I just learned it by working it, I guess. And now I have CPAs who report to me, and they can worry about the details. [laughs] IG: 35:21 That is a perfect situation. I am just thinking how unusual your background is. I mean, I have known people who have wedded the technologist background with a humanist. I know some people you know. I know some people who have made a career of that. But do you see any future for this direction in engineering, for example, is the Watson school doing anything that you sort of naturally fell into? MM: 35:56 Well, of course, when I was in the Watson school, I was an administrator. But because I take things on and because I maybe I do things well, I do not know, for a couple of years, I was the chairman of computer science and Associate Dean, because I had had background in computing when I came here in the (19)60s. I, you know, I learned some programming languages in that time. It was over key punch cards, and I helped create a program called foundations in computer science--actually before computer science existed. It was foundations computer systems. And we took people from various backgrounds, everything, art, music, English, whatever, and put them through a series of six courses to prepare them for a master's to study in a master's degree in computer systems. It was called the foundation of computer science. We created video tapes. This is like 1969 right in there, and taught an awful lot of folks, especially folks in IBM and General Electric, Sarah Link, enough background in logic and Boolean algebra, set theory, numerical analysis, that kind of thing, and some programming languages to be able to step in and start learning computing. So that I was, since I was involved in that, and I have got involved in it, I became knowledgeable, and so I did all those things too. IG: 37:19 Do you think that the (19)60s, in any way encouraged this exploration of different disciplines? And you know, was there a greater experiment, experimentation and searching from one-one area of I mean, I am just thinking about this computational linguistics. I think that it was very innovative. Do you think that it is a product of the time, or just that technology was headed in that direction, and this was exploited by other disciplines? MM: 38:05 Not sure I can understand or I can answer that question, but I do not know that it was as much the (19)60s as was this place. This place was wedded to people exploring it was big. We still say these things. We do less of it, but in the (19)60s and (19)70s and even into the (19)80s, people were encouraged to explore. When you came into Harpur College, you were, you know, they tried not to lock into things. There were fights. In fact, when people tried to make it easier for registration by picking courses for people and having locked in courses, it was just unheard of. So, I mean, I took many-many courses undergraduate that I, you know, from anti just was lots of there was, it was a big plate, and you could eat whatever you wanted. It was the best part. And things like computer science was not entirely defined at the time. That was so that people from various areas could get into it. It was, there was something called the ACM association for computer machinery. ACM 68 was a curriculum. That was when people first started defining what computer science was. So, it was open to everybody. I mean, as I say, the it was the School of Advanced Technology at the time was designed in order to take advantage of this exploration that people in Harpur [crosstalk]. IG: 39:33 Right. Do you think that this exploration exists at the present time? Is it still sort of, you know, is there still a, you know, a partnership, a collaboration between the arts, the humanities and technologies? I mean, I know that it exists in in the library field with Digital Scholarship. But do you think that there is this kind of- MM: 40:04 I think it is- IG: 40:05 -bridging of different [crosstalk] MM: 40:07 I think the possibility is still there, but it is it. You know, I do not want to sound like some old fogy, but I think it is it is different now in that there are so many forces working against students being able to explore. If you look at the Excelsior program or TAP, people are encouraged just to figure out where they want to head, and they are locked into a set of courses. If they do not follow those courses, they are going to lose TAP, or they are going to lose the Excelsior, or they are going to lose whatever it is. So, you cannot do a lot of exploration when you are being trying to focus like that, because politicians, geez, I lose my job. Politicians have set it out so that it is no longer the responsibility of the state to help create the future of the state, as much as it is the personal responsibility. When I first came here, the tuition, the cost of education, was born by the state and by the student. At that time, it was in the 20 to 30 percent range that the student paid, and the 70 or 80 percent in the 70 percent range that the state paid. It is now exactly reversed so these same politicians have put in place, in my opinion, I think they are abdicating their responsibility for the future of the state. But anyway, they put this in place where now students create these great, enormous financial burdens, which now the politicians complain about by saying that, you know, the colleges are burdening these people with all this cost and they have got to pay for loans into their waning years. The fact of the matter is that there are so many more constraints on people now I did not have the constraints that some of these students have. Now they got to take that lab course. They do not have to want to take that lab course. They got to take. So again, sound like an old fogy. Things have changed, no, and it is, it is back then it was a lot less discipline oriented for the faculty and for the students, and a lot more of this exploration I talked about. You can learn different things, but right now, you will find students that have to take these courses or they are not going to get in pre-med. IG: 42:26 And essentially, it is because of financial constraints. MM: 42:29 That is one of the big ones. IG: 42:31 That is one of the big ones. MM: 42:31 Yeah, and also that higher education has changed. People are much more discipline oriented. When I first came here, people were wed to the college. Faculty were wed to the college. They, you know, they would come out to things. There was a faculty review. There were things like that. Now a lot of faculty, of course, it is bigger, but a lot of faculty do not know each other. You have to encourage connections so that people can do some interdisciplinary work, whereas then it was, you know, the people from various areas hung out. The physicists were there when there was a concert. Now you find you do not even mind some music faculty when there is a concert. IG: 43:20 So, what is, you know, what-what is, what is the how? What is the solution? How did you reproduce, you know, very scientifically oriented students to the liberal arts and import and educate them in the importance of having a rounded education? MM: 43:45 Well, I do not want to sound like an old toot here, but as I say, a lot of things are working against it. And instead of that, and again, I am sure it is different for some people, I am just seeing what I observe generally. And that is that you hear students say, instead of having this exploration I talked about, now we have Gen Ed courses. You got to take a general education course. You got to take it. You hear students saying, well, as soon as I get rid of my gen eds. IG: 44:15 Right-right-right. MM: 44:17 You do not want to get rid of your gen ed. That is interesting stuff. So, it is just the world has changed. I cannot say it is better or worse than, you know, I am sure. I am reminded of one of the first Deans I worked with, Leo Faisal said, you know, students are not as good as they used to be, and they never were. [laughs] There is always people looking back at a golden age, right? IG: 44:44 Well, you know, maybe, maybe there is truth to that, because I have really been meeting with extremely accomplished people from who are (19060s alumni. So, there is probably something to that and-and they all attribute their success to the education that they received at Harpur College and the breadth of courses that they were allowed to take that had nothing to do with their major. So, you know, I just, just give us, you know, maybe, an overview of the significant events that you recall in your life as an undergraduate or even as a graduate, and how the student community, and you yourself responded to them. For example, you know the death of JFK, or, you know, some something that really stuck in your memory, and what the campus was like on that day, or days, or? MM: 46:00 Okay, I remember something my early years here, the Vietnam War was a big thing. Most men and women were affected by it. Men because they were going to be sent there. I had friends who were sent to Vietnam and were killed. People were constantly worried about whether or not they are going to be drafted or whatever. Bruce Deering was president. I came in just as Glen Bartle was had stepped down and Bruce Deering was inaugurated. I think in (19)67 or (19)68 something like that, (19)60 somewhere in there, and we did not have the Binghamton campus Harpur did not have the kind of intensity and the demonstrations and the anger that went on at many campuses, And I attribute part of that to Bruce Deering, President, went out and he demonstrated with the students. We went down, and we did a march down to Binghamton, and we were all on the city hall, you know, listening to speeches and so on. And he had gone with the students. And so, it was not like, you know, there was something here on campus and administration to say, you know, they were the establishment. He was a major force in keeping this a common campus, even though students were very upset with people were being drafted and going and not coming back. Those were intense years. It was a lot of building going on at the time, so things were constantly changing. What your hose built. This building was built not too long before it came that kind of thing in the (19)70s, the early (19)70s, the big thing was the state being in financial trouble, and so we lost a lot of lost a lot of people at that time. And it was and trust. There was a lot of trust lost because basically people started pointing fingers at each other and saying, you know, they were not my words, but the thought was, they were not as important to this university or this college as these people are, and you ought to, and they did. They-they cut [inaudible] at the time, and I remember some of the painful things about that. There was a lot of change through the years. I mean, I am not doing well at remembering kind of things are going on, but I do have you know, the emotions were quite high most of the most of those years, the early years. IG: 48:56 Did you feel solidarity in as a student with the other students- MM: 49:00 And the faculty, IG: 49:02 And the faculty. MM: 49:03 We had teachings, for instance. And I still remember Ed Wilson, who was a sculptor, who was in the art department, a black man. I do not remember where it was, but I remember being in a room with a bunch of students and Binghamton, there were not a lot of black people. And so just talking about the world from his perspective, was mind opening for me, and that had also to do with the Vietnam War. But a black man in the Vietnam War era, there were just, I mean, when something happened, the faculty were involved. When there was a teach in, all the faculty were here, doing, helping with the teaching. They did not just stay home. IG: 49:49 That is quite wonderful. MM: 49:58 Yeah. I learned a lot from a lot of folks. Stuart Gordon, who was a good friend of this Walter Leon and I talked about, and he was, he never was. He might have been acting president. I think he was chief officer in charge, or something like that, for a while, but he was dean of Harpur. One it was just Harpur. He took over after Bartle stop being dean of Harpur and became a president. And then Stu Gordon became vice president for academic affairs and so on, but he taught people a lot about how to work together. I remember a lot like, for instance, you would at that time, no, of course, no email. You would be preparing memos to each other, and the Secretary would type those memos. And sometimes it takes a whole day to get a memo out, because you were trying to just get it right, and so on. We typed on a letterhead, and sometimes Stu Gordon would send back those memos corrected it was read and saying, nobody was going to work here unless they, you know, think about things this way and express themselves well. And you had to be a good writer. So it was, it was even part of, I mean, that, thankfully, it never happened to me. But I had a colleague who got one back that was, you know, who had somehow complained about something, and the memo that came back was, never shake your hoary locks at me. IG: 51:26 I wish he were editing over our president's shoulder dispatches, all these misspelled tweets. So, you know, you know, let us see, I am looking at the time, and I am thinking that, you know, if what were some of the most I mean, you have, you have given us a lot of examples, but what do you think were some of the most important lessons that you learned as an undergraduate at Harpur, about studying, about life, about- MM: 52:10 Well, I had to learn it. First of all, high school, elementary school all that came relatively easy to me. I was a good student, but when I got here, and even Broome was I was excellent student, but he did not have to work as hard as you had to work here, not at the expectations were not as hard high as they were when I came here, unlike probably most of the people you were talking about or have talked to, I was a local and a transfer student, and both of those things were not held in high regard, in fact, by a lot of faculty, transfer students are still not held in high regard. And so, I had to prove myself, but I also had to work very-very hard, because so much was expected of you. And so, I remember my father, who, as I said, never finished or finished high school, but never went to college. He-he one time said, because it was just a different life than he had ever experienced. He said, you cannot really be studying all that time. What are you really doing? No, you had to study. It took hours and hours and hours. It was a full-time job. And unlike, and I should not be saying this, but because I do not want SUNY to hear this, unlike now for many faculty, for credit courses were really for credit courses. They were designed to be more than the three credit courses at other colleges, this whole public Brown and all that kind of thing. They really meant it. There was you earned that extra credit outside of class and inside of class, and it was really four credit hour courses. Now you will bump into faculty will tell you not, the same course I taught when I was at so once, it was a three-credit course. There is four credit here. What is the difference? It was- they were, they were. Expectations were much higher of the students at the time. It was a lot of work. IG: 54:14 So, yeah, I-I see that. I But what were, what were some of the takeaways from that experience of really working very hard and- MM: 54:33 Well, I do not know takeaways or some. I mean, I do not think I learned it there, but it became important there the pride in what you do. You do not do anything is half assed. When you write a memo, somebody might be correcting it, right? You do it because you were trying to do your best. This is not just me. This was a lot of these students; I have friends now that were here back in the (19)60s. You know they. We still talk about people and things that happened then, and it was a lot was expected of you, and I felt I am proud to graduate from Harpur. IG: 55:16 Students are going to be listening to this recording. And I always ask as we are nearing the end of our interview, if you have any advice for them as they embark on their careers. I mean, you have had such a varied and robust and interesting career. You know, from linguistics to computational linguistics to engineering to finance, what is there anything that you can draw from that that would put these students in good stead for their future? MM: 56:01 I do not know that I am that wise, but I can tell you that, first of all, I should say these students are not the students who are here are not any less smart or less hard working than the students when I was here in the (19)60s. Matter of fact, we had a speaker at the commencement here a couple weeks ago said, you know, your students are far better than we were when I was here. And it is true, these are excellent students. But if I had to encourage anybody, I would encourage them to, you know, do some things you care about because you care about them, and not just because somebody tells you-you cannot be a physician without having done them. Do those things if you have to too. But you know, when you are I do not the Anderson center reports to me. It is the Performing Arts Center, and I go to all the concerts. And oftentimes there will not be anybody there whose hair is not my color which is white there-there are no young people going to classical concerts. You have an orchestra and the place will be half full. That would never have happened in the (19)60s. People are not exploring the way we explored. And I or they do not appear to be, and I would just encourage people to-to open up their lives to other possibilities, other thoughts. Remember that you are going to have to live a whole life, and it cannot just be because you are good at writing code. You got to, you got to enjoy your life to learn other things. That is what I was encouraged to do. IG: 57:37 That is very good advice. Any concluding remarks? MM: 57:44 No, I just hope this gets buried for about 10 years and then I do not have to worry about it. IG: 57:51 [laughter] MM: 57:51 Probably [inaudible] IG: 57:52 Thank you very much. MM: 57:53 Okay. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael F. McGoff Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni from Broome County; Harpur College – Alumni in linguistics; Harpur College - Alumni living in New York City. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGoff, Michael ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. McGoff is senior vice provost and Chief Financial Officer for Binghamton University. His doctorate was in computer-oriented onomastics, the study of names, which he programmed to study the indigenous languages spoken in New York State. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Michael McGoff.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-06-12 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 57:54 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/423e87f8bfae7806ac0e316e94f3a76d.mp3 15a0b316ed6ea0047dfbb5e3363f9fdd https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/93eb503df4ac2d95351465398ea29a3f.jpg 0d9768e557072696819bb8bdc5c8e968 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Paul Ginsburg and Gail Ginsburg Year of Graduation 1965 and 1968 Biographical Text Paul Ginsburg, Ph.D. is the director, USC-Brookings Schaeffer Initiative for Health Policy and the Leonard D. Schaeffer Chair in Health Policy Studies, The Brookings Institution; and Professor of Health Policy and Director of Public Policy, Schaeffer Center for Health Policy and Economics, University of Southern California. He also worked at the Rand Corporation, the Congressional Budget Office (1978-84), wrote policies that informed Hillary Clinton's health policy and founded the Center for Studying Health System Change. <br /><br />Gail Ginsburg is a microbiologist with the grants office at the National Institutes of Health. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Paul B. Ginsburg and Gail T. Ginsburg Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 12 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 -ask you to introduce yourselves and just say, when you were born, what years you attended Binghamton, and what we are doing here. PG: 00:14 Okay. IG: 00:16 Where we are. PG: 00:17 Yeah, I am Paul. I am Paul Ginsburg, and I was born in 1945 graduated from Binghamton, which we called Harpur College, then in 1965 so I was very much a youngster, as many of my peers from New York City were at that time. GG: 00:42 And I am Gail Ginsburg. I was born in 1948 and I graduated in 1968 also it was Harpur College at that point, and I think that is all right. IG: 01:01 So, what-what are we doing here? PG: 01:03 Oh, sure. And we are being interviewed by Irene Gashurov- IG: 01:09 Yes. PG: 01:10 -who's doing--what do you call it? IG: 01:12 Oral history. PG: 01:13 Oral history of the college in the 1960s. GG: 01:18 Of which we have some experience. [laughter] IG: 01:23 Alright, so Paul, let us begin with you. So just tell us a little bit about where you grew up. You mentioned New York, who your parents were, you know, what-what, whether they encouraged you to go to college, PG: 01:39 Yeah. Well, so I did grow up in New York, New York City, in the Bronx, and there was never any discussion about going to college. It was assumed. And I assumed it as well. I was very intrigued about the idea of going away to college, which perhaps is a reason that I wound up going to Harpur rather than one of the city university colleges in New York City. IG: 02:11 So, your parents- PG: 02:12 Oh, and sorry, you know, my parents were native born. They were- their parents were immigrants, and my father was an administrator in the New York City government. And my mother, I think by that point, had been working also in the New York City government. I think she went back to work when my brother and I were in high school. IG: 02:44 I am curious. Where were the immigrants from? PG: 02:48 Oh, Russia. PG: 02:48 From Russia. PG: 02:49 But not my parents. Their-their parents. IG: 02:51 They were [inaudible]. I understand your grandparents. Do you know where? PG: 02:56 Yeah, I think I know my father's family came from Belarus, what today is called Belarus. IG: 03:03 It was a Russian Empire. PG: 03:04 That is right. IG: 03:07 And you Gail, where did you grow up? Who your parents were, you know? GG: 03:14 So, I grew up on Staten Island in one of the boroughs of New York City. I went to high school in Manhattan, so I had a long commute to high school. My parents were from New Jersey, and their families went back a long time. I have relatives who lived in Rahway in going back to the early 1800s but they moved to Staten Island because they had a business opportunity. They bought a small business, and just before my father was drafted into World War Two, and my mom stayed and worked the whole business during the war. And so, I was raised, probably by the original feminist. They were not college educated, but they- there was no question we were going to college. My sister, who's older, went to college, and it seemed like a good experience. So, it was never a question I was going to go to college. IG: 04:20 So why did you decide on Harpur College? GG: 04:29 Well- IG: 04:31 What was the reputation that you knew of Harpur College at the time? GG: 04:35 I would not say there was a lot of decision in that. My family was pretty unsophisticated when it came to understanding about colleges compared to the knowledge that Paul and I have now. It is probably shared with our children. You just applied where a guidance counselor thought you had a chance to get in. And in some of the places I applied to, I was not accepted in. I was first year of the baby booms, and so there were a lot of surprises that year on acceptances, and Harpur just seemed like a very good choice. Some of the other choices I had were very expensive, and my father had just lost a lot of money, so he was really happy for me to go to Harpur. IG: 05:25 Well, it is maybe too personal to ask how he lost a lot of money. GG: 05:29 He was a businessman. IG: 05:32 Okay, [inaudible] GG: 05:33 He was not necessarily low risk kind of person. He had his company, and he retained that, but he had invested a lot of money in a-a process that-that coated fabric, and this- his friend of his had a patent on it, and they started their business, and they were really out competed by DuPont. It was pretty hard for them to get muscle into that market. So, he lost a fair amount of money at that point, and it was just before I was that year and a half before I started college. But we were not impoverished. [crosstalk] PG: 06:15 I went to Harpur because I mentioned I wanted to be in a residential school, and just given my sense of what the tuition would be, even with scholarships at private universities, the tuition difference was very large. And my parents were a fairly modest income and-and I was impressed with Harpur's reputation. The fact that it was a small liberal arts college was attractive to me. IG: 06:52 Did you visit it before your first semester? PG: 06:56 No. IG: 06:57 And, yeah-yeah. So, what were some of your first impressions when you two city kids came to this very rural place? GG: 06:57 No. GG: 07:07 Well, my sister went to Elmira college, so I was already familiar with the southern tier, so it did not surprise me that much. The one thing that surprised me was that it was kind of far out of town. It was like a suburban location, and I was sort of surprised at that, especially since few of us had cars, it was kind of isolating. PG: 07:32 Yeah, I would say that, you know, I knew it was going to be somewhat rural, well, not really rural, but just in a small city location. It did not disappoint me. I did not expect to have much time for taking advantage of the location. I expected to be really mostly involved in both work and campus social activities, so I never had that much interest, actually, of getting off campus, because so much was there on the campus. IG: 08:09 Did you anticipate what type of social activities these would be, just kind of hanging out with other young people or? PG: 08:17 Yeah, being with other people. There was, at least at that time, a lot of culture was brought to the campus, you know, concerts, movies, actually, there seemed to be plenty to do. I was not as focused on food as I am now. So, the fact that the food was going to be awful, and was truly awful, and that they were no convenient restaurants right nearby did not factor in. IG: 08:49 So-so what was your program of study? What-what did you major in? PG: 08:55 Oh, well, I started out as a math major, but had an interest in economics. And when I got to the- guess, my fourth math course in, say, the spring of my sophomore year, that is when I decided that math was not for me, and I, you know, was well along in economics and decided that is what I would do. IG: 09:26 So, what- who were, you know, maybe some of the faculty that made an impression on you, what-what changed you from wanting to pursue math as a as a subject of study to economics? PG: 09:44 Well, that is hard to say. I mean, it is- I did have an outstanding initial math teacher, perhaps for the full year and a half calculus sequence. And but there is nothing wrong with it. Teacher after that, it was a striking change in the nature of the subjects to highly theoretical mathematics, whereas the first three semesters were quite practical. Same, you know, an engineer might have taken that course, not that there were engineering students at Harpur at the time, so I always characterize it as just seeing what at least the math major was conceived of at Harpur. And, you know, did not find that engaging. I think I had a very good- all the freshmen took a social science course at the time which exposed them to all of the social sciences. And when they were sophomores, they actually took an introductory course in selected social science. And both my social science course and gone very well. I kind of remember the instructor was a young man with a dashing silver streak in his hair. And we used to refer to him students as the Silver Streak. But he was, you know, charismatic teacher. And so, in a sense, then I began the regular economics course. I enjoyed that a great deal. IG: 11:26 So, what appealed to you about economics? How did it open vistas for you- your understanding of the world? PG: 11:34 Yeah, I just found the subject matter very engaging. And, you know, sticking with economics and becoming a professional economist, I think the thing now, I could think of it as the ability to, you know, think very analytically and to understand an economy and how things impact. It just very engaging all the time. IG: 12:04 But nothing-nothing particular and nothing, nothing you know, a gem of insight does not stand out from those years that you all of a sudden, because of this course of study, something began to make sense. Your apprehension of the world changed. No, it was not like that. PG: 12:24 No, I think it was just, it was a subject I had not been exposed to high school. IG: 12:29 Yeah. PG: 12:31 There are high school economics courses these days. I do not know how successful they are, but it was just-just finding the subject matter very engaging. IG: 12:40 Right-right. Any so, any professors in economics that you would like to mention as having a particular impact? PG: 12:50 Yeah, I would say the it was Professor John Latourette. Actually, I liked a lot of the faculty. It was Latourette, too. I do not remember if I took the introductory course from him or not, but I know he was my advisor, and as a senior, actually did some research with him and-and I remember some Alfred Carlip was, you know, very good professor, someone named, I think, Leiman [Melvin Leiman], where the subject matter of the course was not that interesting, but I liked him. So, there were a lot of engaging professors there at the time. Cannot think of anyone I did not like. Oh, and then, actually, the professor at my senior seminar, his name is Vucasin [Peter Vukasin], was an outstanding teacher and helped me decide which graduate school to go to. IG: 13:59 And where did you go? PG: 14:01 I went to Harvard. And what he told me is that, see, I had gotten into all that I had applied to, all in the same day that I had been awarded a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship, which, at that time used to have money attached to it, and so they all accepted me, since I had my own money. IG: 14:22 So where did you get where else did you get accepted? PG: 14:25 Oh, I think Yale, Johns, Hopkins, those are the ones I remember. IG: 14:30 Why did you choose Harvard? I mean- PG: 14:33 Well, what Vukasin said to me is that, in a sense, "You do not have very specific, defined interests. Go to Harvard. You like Cambridge," and I guess that was pretty good advice. IG: 14:48 And so, did you do a PhD, or? PG: 14:50 Yes, what I should tell you, I am sure you have heard it from some others, is that I would much rather have worked as an economist after college to see what it was like. IG: 15:02 Right. PG: 15:04 I did not expect to be an academic and but you know, that was better than being drafted. IG: 15:12 Right. PG: 15:14 Reason I got a PhD is both learning that the-the top programs in economics did not bother with master's programs. What I found actually at Harvard is that the master's degree was what was given to the students that the PhD students who were not going to make it- PG: 15:40 To the PhD. PG: 15:41 -to PhD level. So, in a sense, and there were, there is a lot of scholarship money for PhD programs, nothing for master's programs at lesser universities. So, I got into a PhD program. IG: 15:59 Gail, did you, you know, were you married at the time, or what-what? GG: 16:07 No. IG: 16:07 Okay, so let us, let us trace back to your course of study at Binghamton, and what you know, why you chose the major that you did and what faculty made a particular impression on your formation? If you, if you can say that GG: 16:29 Sure, I started out as initially as a science major. I was interested in biology or chemistry, I was not sure, and so I started the introductory--the initial years of requirements are pretty similar between those two majors. So, I started those programs, and then I also in taking your distribution requirements, found that I really liked literature, and so I was taking, kind of following this path for the first two years, of taking trying to meet my distribution requirements, but also taking my science and then I would take extra literature courses as I could fit them in, and there was always a competition between the two. But in the sense that I- in my comparative anatomy class, I think it was Professor Landry [Stuart O. Landry] was the professor, and he saw my notebook and realized that I could sketch. And so, he had me- I did some illustrations for him. And it was a lot of fun. IG: 17:50 What kind of illustrations? GG: 17:51 They were anatomical. In those days, most biology was very descriptive. IG: 17:55 Right. GG: 17:56 So, it was skulls, all different kinds of skulls. He was, I guess, doing comparative analysis of the evolution of the- these different animals. And it was very interesting, because I had kind of a distant, not-not very much, not a firm relative, but very distant one who was a medical illustrator, and so I had actually seen some of his work, and he- so there was this one side with me, doing art and science, and then the other side was the literature professor at the same time, Robert Kroetsch, who was a writer, novelist, and he was a fantastic professor, and he kept urging me to major in literature. So, I had these competing interests, and I- there are two things that made me really made literature actually went out in the end, and that was that I did not know what I was going to do with a science major. I did not think that I wanted to go to medical school, and absolutely all my classmates in my science classes were highly competitive, all wanting to get to medical school and make it killing financially, they were not fun to be classmates with, and I just did not think that that was going to be the thing for me. I knew that there was a very strong prejudice against women in the science in those days, it was hard, it was hard, to see a path forward, and literature was so much fun, and I did not think that far in advance. I do not think I planned that much in those days. I think that is the disadvantage of starting college at 16. You know, you were still a high school kid. IG: 19:57 Yes. GG: 19:58 Basically, you do not really have, uh, the social sense, or the drive. IG: 20:02 Right. GG: 20:03 That is someone who's been out more. GG: 20:05 The only drive I knew was that I had to finish college because my parents would be mortally just so opposed to my dropping out of college. And I never thought about it. I really liked college material, and I actually used to like studying for finals, because it kind of was a way to kind of pull together a whole body of information. And I am someone who- IG: 20:05 Of course. IG: 20:30 In literature you like, or any subject? GG: 20:33 Any subject, yeah, I just found that I am not good at the little details. I am really good at putting together patterns. And somehow patterns fell into place studying for a final. So, I had this overview that I always felt gave me more understanding, at least the best that I could at that point, I was not the most dedicated student also going to laugh at that. And so, you know, if I could get away with not working that hard, I certainly would. And I spent a lot of time off campus because I found Binghamton very boring. So, I have spent a lot of time up in Ithaca. IG: 21:13 Yeah. So, you had a car, or somebody- GG: 21:16 I had a friend who had a car, yeah, and the two of us would just go roaming. We had a great time, and I do not know. So eventually I did become a literature major, be more, because I just did not know what I was going to do. And in those days, you could graduate from college, and that was sufficient to get a job, PG: 21:36 A good job. IG: 21:38 A good job. Yeah. GG: 21:40 And so, but so that is basically what I did. And I would say those two professors were very influential on me. Of all professors I had, first of all, because I still remember their names, that means something. And they just all took a personal interest in me, and that I thought was, I did not know if that was a feature of college in general, or just maybe that is an aspect of being a relatively small school as it was at that time, but I appreciated that because you did not feel anonymous at all. IG: 22:19 Did they invite you to their homes? Did you have any extra [crosstalk] curricular activities with them? Did they have dinners or? GG: 22:29 Actually, there was a third professor that, I think back on it. He was, I think he had invited me to his house. I remember he had these fancy pigeons in the cage in his kitchen. They were really quite spectacular, and his wife was wonderful. Dr. Landry, I think he gave me a ride somewhere. I mean, they were nice people- IG: 22:52 Nice people. GG: 22:55 But it was not like I felt like I socialized with them. IG: 22:58 Right. Were there any stars that you remember in the English Department? GG: 23:03 Well, I think Kroetsch was. He left the university around the time I was graduating, or he was on leave. I do not know if he actually came back or not. He was Canadian. I think he eventually went up to Canada again. IG: 23:21 Did you take part- I am just curious, what-what, so what-what path did your career take? GG: 23:28 Oh, that is the interesting part. I kept circling back to science, no matter how I turned. That is what I wound up in. So, what is the job I get when I finish college? I interview to be a secretary. Because remember, in those days, they used to have two lines at employment offices, the men went the executive route and the women went the secretarial so I being ignorant. I just did what they said. And during my interview, woman said, "You are not going to be happy being a secretary," and I wound up in the in designing circuit boards at a small engineering company in Boston. IG: 24:15 How did that happen? From secretarial to was it your science degree? [crosstalk] How did you decide circuit boards? GG: 24:22 I did not. IG: 24:22 I could not. GG: 24:22 I did not. She just decided, for me, she knew that. I guess she must have been aware of what jobs were open, and I did not have, you did not have to be an engineer. IG: 24:33 Right. GG: 24:33 You just have to understand components and tolerances, and they can teach you that. And the engineers were in offices down the hallway. But what I did was it was like a puzzle. I mean, it is like they paid me to do puzzles. It was so much fun. IG: 24:46 And what was the what was the time and company, and? GG: 24:50 Oh, do you remember the name of the company? PG: 24:53 Yeah, [inaudible] GG: 24:54 Is it? GG: 24:55 Yeah, I think they made equipment for testing, for quality control. PG: 24:59 Yeah-yeah, I cannot think of [crosstalk] GG: 25:01 [crosstalk] anything right now. I only worked there for a few months, and then my father was- who had been ill most of my life, was really ill, and my mom wanted me to move back home, which I did, so then I came home and helped her run the family business after my dad passed away. PG: 25:22 You know, one thing I have been mentioning thinking about since we talked before about, and Gail mentioned being young. This was a major thing, because, you know, almost all of the students from New York City, which might have been half of the student body, were young, and so it really, I think it limited how much they got out of college. It limited the kind of activities they sought out, maybe even limited them intellectually, like when I think of it, my fourth semester, all of a sudden, I started doing--I was doing okay, but I started doing very well, and that continued throughout, probably just a matter of maturity. IG: 26:09 It was a matter of maturity, did you say? PG: 26:11 Yeah, probably a matter of just maturity. IG: 26:13 Yeah, that is that is an interesting observation. I have also thought that in my life as well, that at a certain point you either read- reach a critical mass. But it does have to do with maturity and yet, and yet, you know you were. I mean, there are prodigies at a young age, and you already had a sense of the direction that you wanted to take in math, and then you switched to economics, so you had the intellectual wherewithal to pursue that too. PG: 26:51 Well, there are different interpretations. You could say, well, maybe if he was more maturing- IG: 26:55 Yeah, he would do more. PG: 26:56 -would have handled math differently. IG: 26:59 So-so do you think that the, you know, well, I mean- PG: 27:03 I do not think that was the case. I do not think, looking back, that was actually the case. IG: 27:07 Yeah. PG: 27:08 They were just saying that there are possibilities of students who went different directions, perhaps because they were quite young, IG: 27:16 Yeah. PG: 27:17 That might have, might not have been the best for them. IG: 27:20 Right. So- GG: 27:23 I think, I think there are always aspects, [inaudible] in an environment that influences you. Just as I was saying that I did not know how I could have a path forward for science job in just pure chemistry, say, I think that is a reality at that time, it would have been very difficult, and so that had nothing to do with my age, but there is all these other external factors that one processes as you go through. PG: 27:53 but I actually think that my young age, unlike you, my young age, made me quite satisfied with campus life in a way that you were not. IG: 28:03 So, what did you do? I mean, campus life, how was it, how was it fun? PG: 28:09 Well, in a sense, it was, first of all, I was not home. IG: 28:11 Yes. PG: 28:13 I had all these friends, you know, right nearby. You know, could get together with them, quickly, or, you know, without spending a lot of time traveling. I mentioned before there were all these events going on that were, and many of these events were, you know, very important to me. You know, being exposed to foreign movies, being exposed to jazz performers and quartets. There was a quartet [crosstalk] quartet. IG: 28:47 And what do you remember, any of the musicians, any of the- PG: 28:53 Oh, some of the jazz musicians. IG: 28:54 Where did they perform? At the student union or there was an auditorium. PG: 28:58 There was an auditorium, there was an auditorium, and then in some cases it was the gym, which is somewhat bigger, but the most of it in the auditorium. You know, as well as student productions and so you know, between the people, and you know, people were in social clubs, which was, you know, really, just for parties- GG: 29:30 And for men. PG: 29:32 Well, there was some women's clubs, were not there-- much less probably. IG: 29:36 What were the clubs that you were in? PG: 29:38 I was in [inaudible]. IG: 29:39 What is that? PG: 29:41 It is just a Greek name. [laughter] GG: 29:44 [crosstalk] national fraternities. PG: 29:47 No-no, they were not. They were, they were all specific to Harpur and really just another social you know, to some extent, like fraternities, but people I-I remember, actually, you know, we got together for parties, but also just sometimes, just the older people would, you know, take the group out to a bar and, you know, just to drink beer on a Friday night. IG: 30:22 Well, that is, I mean, that is fun, especially when you are, you know- PG: 30:27 When you were 16- IG: 30:28 -when you were 16 is, you know, it was an entry into adulthood. PG: 30:32 That is right. IG: 30:33 Would you, would you imagine adulthood to be. So-so, you know, so you were having fun and socializing and participating in clubs, but it was also the time of Vietnam. PG: 30:49 No. IG: 30:50 It was before Vietnam, because- PG: 30:52 I was there, before Vietnam [crosstalk] IG: 30:54 Before it affected your-your- PG: 30:56 Yeah, Vietnam was not very prominent. IG: 30:59 It was not very so, so there was not a fear of the draft, or- PG: 31:03 I mean, there was not, I mean, definitely. Well, I remember, actually, not that far, long before I graduated, because of Vietnam getting started, there was a change in draft policy. IG: 31:14 How did it change? PG: 31:16 It used to be that, you know, I think they started maybe exempting fathers, and that meant they were drafting more of other people. You know, I do not remember the details now, but the bottom line was that I was, oh, I know what it was, is that they were not drafting men until they were 23, 24 and there was a policy to exempt fathers. And by exempting fathers, the draft age for the non-fathers fell. So, in a sense, it would be, and it fallen down to 20 or 21 perhaps. So, it meant that. So, it was not like there was all this anti-war, although I think the war was becoming unpopular then, and there probably were some activities in my last year, but it was just a matter of, oh, I am going to be drafted. I do not want that. IG: 32:12 So, I mean, for you, it is kind of a moot point, because you were determined to go on to your graduate- PG: 32:22 No. IG: 32:22 -studies anyway. PG: 32:23 No. IG: 32:23 No. PG: 32:24 No, I would not have gone to graduate school. IG: 32:26 You would not have gone. PG: 32:27 No. IG: 32:27 I see. PG: 32:28 Maybe later. IG: 32:29 Maybe later. GG: 32:32 When, in the end, he was so young when he graduated. For graduate school, he was still eligible. IG: 32:39 Right. GG: 32:40 So, he [inaudible] two years. IG: 32:45 So, he- PG: 32:46 Yeah, so I was in had a commission in the Public Health Service to meet my service obligation. IG: 32:53 Oh, and where was that? And what? What nature of service was it? PG: 32:59 Oh, I was used interchangeably with federal civil servants in Rockville, that but as a commission as Lieutenant Commander in the Public Health Service. GG: 33:13 But he had a low enough number in the lottery, he would have been drafted for the army. IG: 33:17 That is terrible. PG: 33:18 Yeah. IG: 33:21 So did the war- I mean, did you come from a liberal or conservative background? Did the war change your thinking in any way about politics, about- PG: 33:35 Yeah, I would call them. I would say came from a moderate democratic background. And the, you know, the war was not popular there with me. But you know, this did not come from an environment that was going to go out and demonstrate an- and that is not me either. IG: 34:04 That is not you either. [laughter] GG: 34:14 As far as the war, my parents were both staunch Republicans. I did not pay any attention to politics, particularly. But it was interesting that as the war progressed, when my father had passed away, so I do not know if he would have evolved in this in this area, but my mom started to become strong anti-war person. So, it was interesting how as a moderate Republican, she moved very strongly against that position over time, because she remembered World War Two, when my father was in the army for three years, fighting in European front. And she thought it was horrible. I mean, she just really hated war and so that so for people who had that World War Two experience, not everyone came through saying, you know, waving the flag all the time, even if they were conservative. So that is that was a deal breaker for her. IG: 35:20 Yeah, it must have affected you to have your mother, to see your mother evolve. GG: 35:27 I thought it was interesting. I, you know, I my mother and I are very independent people, and I do not have any difficulty being with people who have a different opinion, political opinion. I was used to it. There was a range of political views, few points in my extended family, and it was I was comfortable with that. It did not matter to me so much. I thought it was a big deal for her to change, because I thought there was a lot of pressure among conservatives to kind of hold down the fort and keep to the position. So, I thought it just indicated to me that she was independent in how she viewed things. One thing I had not mentioned before when you were asking me about my profession, is that when I circled back for my first job being in science, I also came back to science again later on, when I did go to graduate school with science. IG: 36:35 In science? GG: 36:36 Yeah, I have a master's degree in molecular biology, and I have worked at NIH for many years. I am now retired from it, so I science has won me over in the end. IG: 36:52 And so, so when did you when did you make that decision to go into- GG: 36:58 After our children were starting elementary school, I went back to graduate school. IG: 37:03 I see. GG: 37:04 I went to graduates school. IG: 37:07 Wonderful. PG: 37:07 Tell the story of the course you took at UCLA, GG: 37:11 Oh UCLA, yeah, yeah, yeah, IG: 37:13 UCLA? GG: 37:15 Yeah. We were in- IG: 37:16 Los Angeles. PG: 37:17 Yeah. Actually, I had joined the RAND Corporation, and said volunteer to in Washington, but it volunteered to spend a year in Santa Monica. So, the family did that. And so that is why we were in Los Angeles, and Gail took a course. IG: 37:37 When were you in Los Angeles? PG: 37:38 (19)84, (19)85. IG: 37:38 (19)84, (19)85. GG: 37:41 Yeah. And you know, when you are home with two young children, the only thing you keep hearing is the dripping away of all your [inaudible]. So, I was always looking for something that would be sort of an intellectual stimulus. As much as I loved being home with my kids, you just cannot do it 100 percent there is no one normal. And so, I- PG: 38:08 Of course, they were both in school. GG: 38:10 Yeah, and so I was able to take a course. I actually took it at night, so it just did not matter about their school schedule. And it was just eye opening because I began to see the whole field of molecular biology had started up in the interim, and whereas biology before was just constant memorization, classification and structural and physiology stuff, and I did not find that that compelling, which is why I was more attracted to chemistry, because it is a little bit more overview general approaches. But molecular biology was chemistry brought to biology. And so that is so it suddenly opened my eyes. I said I could do this. This is like, IG: 38:56 What, why do you think that the field opened up because of the advent of technology? GG: 39:05 There are tipping points in every field where you get new techniques that come up that suddenly allow people to have insight in areas, they never had access to before. And so, it was the early work of the bacteriologists and they were beginning to understand and manipulate the genes in that simple bacteria and be able to show how it- they created a whole metabolism chart, and the early work of the nutritionist in biochemistry opened up this field. That opened it up in biochemistry, but the biochemists really added, brought this whole dimension and to into biology. And then when you couple that with sequencing and the understanding of DNA, which was not well elucidated. Back when I was in college, you knew that it existed, but there was so much that you did not know that allowed manipulations with it and that just-just broke open the door. IG: 40:15 So-so in your job at the NIH what-what was your focus? What-what did you do? GG: 40:23 Well, I worked for in graduate school, there with a bacteriologist, geneticist, and then after I finished graduate school, I-I had a full-time position, got a full-time position for about, I guess, about seven, eight years, maybe eight years, I was in Alan's lab, and it was a basic science lab. I worked in a small model organism called dictyostelium discoid, and we studied aspects of signal transduction, which is just, how do you how does this organism take surface signals and have create changes inside and- IG: 41:11 Just explain for the audience, why is understanding signaling so important to biochemistry? GG: 41:25 Oh, well, it is very in some ways we never knew. Part of it is playing around and experimenting. But the theory was that if we understood how we could manipulate signals on the surface, which could be anything like a drug can come in and clog up a pathway, but being able to understand the internal workings of the cell, you- they were, it was very reductionist in those days, so they were really trying to, we were really trying to understand how a cell actually works. And we thought with something very simple, you could understand, in this case, how do these cells begin to move from being single cells to aggregating with other single cells and become, and in fact, a whole new organism and the fruiting body and make a complete transformation and this organism. If we could understand this, how this organism works, well, maybe would understand how tumors come together, or other aspects that have relate to human disease or human function. So that is part of that makes sense. IG: 42:42 Fascinating. Yes-yes. PG: 42:44 Irene, just, I just love to talk. I am sorry, watch, and I realized this joint interview is not working for me, because I have to be, you know, on-on a call. IG: 42:54 When? PG: 42:55 4:30. IG: 42:55 Or. okay, all right, so let us focus on you. [crosstalk] Actually, I am- I found it very interesting what you had to say, and I had some exposure to what you were describing. I am sorry. So, Paul, tell us about your work for the just-just the evolution of your career. You worked at the RAND, you worked at you were working currently at the Brookings Institute. So, tell us, tell us, you know the progression this- PG: 43:41 Oh sure. IG: 43:41 Yes. PG: 43:42 Yes. Well, actually, when I had finished, when I was in graduate school, I became very interested in policy. Actually, I got into healthcare in graduate school, an interesting route of finishing coursework, not being ready to start a thesis and working for a consulting firm which sent me to Nova Scotia to help the provincial governments technical assistance. I won't get into what it was for, but that changed my interests and decided I wanted to do something and applied micro economics, and chose health because that was one of the two areas that Harvard was very strong in. So-so anyway, I started pursuing health care as I was preparing to write a dissertation. Got a dissertation topic in healthcare, and then was going to go into policy. Actually, had a job with the New York City governments. Very attractive job, which I thought that would be a. Was suitable for a draft deferral. Turned out not to be. So, I was found by an enterprising person that in the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, it was named then- IG: 45:15 In New York? PG: 45:16 No in Washington, who you know, had realized that he could use commissioned officers in the Public Health Service interchangeably with regular civil servants. And had recruited, when I was there, about 30 men who were there with two-year commissions. IG: 45:41 Right. PG: 45:43 So that is what I did. Basically, I was- it was doing program officer work which I did not particularly care for, which led me to decide, well, you know, you did not think you wanted to become an academic, but if you this would be the time to do it. So, then I went to Michigan State as an assistant professor there. IG: 46:16 What year was that in the- PG: 46:20 That was 1972 and was reasonably happy there, but not that engaged and was recruited by Duke, which seemed like a more exciting place. It was. IG: 46:37 It was. PG: 46:37 But it was not enough. IG: 46:38 It was not enough. PG: 46:40 So, I took a leave from Duke to join the Congressional Budget Office- IG: 46:47 Oh, wow. PG: 46:48 -which was willing to hire me into a permanent job rather than a visitor. IG: 46:53 Right. PG: 46:55 Knowing I was on leave from the University, and I never went back. IG: 47:02 So, the Congressional Budget Office. What was so exciting- I mean, apart from being in the thick of things? PG: 47:09 Being in the thick of things, you know, doing work that you know, congressional committee staff thought that they needed- as and, you know, being in the policy world. IG: 47:27 So, so just feeling that you have a direct impact on the course of politics? PG: 47:34 Policy. IG: 47:35 Policy. PG: 47:36 That is right. IG: 47:37 So, what- so-so just give us, you know, some of the highlights of your career. I mean, what, what policies did you create that came to. came to light, came to materialize, and what, what effect did they have on launching? PG: 48:02 It was probably best to say policies I was involved in developing, and not claim credit for the policies these change in the way Medicare paid hospitals. That was probably the most impactful thing during my CBO days. There were other policies that I had a role in at later jobs. IG: 48:27 In later jobs. PG: 48:30 In later jobs. IG: 48:31 So how long were you at the Congressional Budget Office? PG: 48:34 Six years. IG: 48:35 Six years. That is from 197- PG: 48:39 8 to 1984. IG: 48:43 And then what happened? PG: 48:48 Yes, and then I actually started getting bored there. Joined the RAND Corporation, which is a think tank. IG: 48:58 I know, I know. PG: 48:59 Yeah, you know, started, you know, to doing analysis for the Air Force, but with a significant domestic program, particularly in health care. IG: 49:10 Particularly? PG: 49:10 In health care. IG: 49:11 In health care, where the Air Force? PG: 49:16 Yeah, there was- Rand was actually initiated by the Air Force. IG: 49:24 So- PG: 49:25 In the 1940s. IG: 49:26 In the 1940s. I did not know that. I lived in Los Angeles. I worked for a university. So of course, you know, but I did not know the Air Force origins. So, you were there for a year? PG: 49:42 Well, I was with Rand for two years. You know, one was in Santa Monica and one was in Washington. And then a congressional Commission was created where Congress wanted, uh, set up a commission to come up with a policy to revamp physician payments in the Medicare program, and I was recruited to be executive director of that commission. Easiest job decision ever to do that so-so that is what I did, starting in 1986. IG: 50:33 So revamped physician payment? PG: 50:36 Payments in Medicare. IG: 50:37 So, did this, did this revision benefit physicians or patients? PG: 50:47 Well, hopefully both, but it was, it benefited some physicians at the expense of other physicians. It just changed the structure of payments as to rewarding visits more highly than procedures, whether I doubt it affected patients that much, except very indirectly. And so that was the commission was very successful because Congress enacted legislation based on the commission's proposals in 1989 and which still functions to this day, so does the hospital payment system. IG: 51:45 So, you actually had a hand in creating policies for- PG: 51:51 Yes, for physician payments. IG: 51:54 That is right for hospital. PG: 51:55 I mentioned the hospital before IG: 51:58 Yes. PG: 51:59 That was when I was at CBO, I had a bigger influence on the physician payment because of actually drawing up the proposal. IG: 52:18 So, we have either you to thank or- PG: 52:22 That is right [crosstalk]. That was a role. IG: 52:27 Yeah. PG: 52:28 Then [crosstalk] I was Medicare, yeah, that was all Medicare. But, yeah, but Medicare, what we did, influenced the rest of the payment system immediately, almost. Then I started a think tank at the invitation to the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. IG: 52:49 Oh wow. [inaudible] PG: 52:54 The Center for Studying Health System change. IG: 52:57 That is tremendous. So, tell us about this work. PG: 53:09 Yes, well, that actually involved extensive data collection. The vision on the part of the foundation for this was that this was when President Clinton and Hillary Clinton were, you know, developing a proposal to reform the health care system, which today sometimes referred to as Hillary care. And there was concern that the federal government was not adequately prepared to monitor how healthcare was changing under that reform, and it wanted to fund research to augment what the federal government would-would be doing. Now, of course, the reform did not pass, but the Foundation decided to go forward anyway, because it perceived the health care system on its own was changing very quickly. IG: 54:19 Just-just expand on that last point so, um- PG: 54:24 Well, there were new organizations being created, right new types of physician organizations. Hospitals were acquiring other hospitals and insurance products were changing. So, there was, you know, with managed care was becoming very important. So that was the motivation. And this think tank, the center, you know, conducted surveys of households and physicians. And-and but what it was best known for was conducting extensive site visits in 12 representative metropolitan areas involved interviewing leaders, and, you know, different sectors of the healthcare system and-and sectors that interacted with the health care system, like employers. IG: 55:28 So, which-which health care systems did you interview? PG: 55:36 Well, so-so in a typical- IG: 55:37 Several-several. PG: 55:38 -market it would be, you know, maybe two or three hospitals, if there were physician organizations, either multi-specialty groups or what was called an Independent Practice Association, they were interviewed insurance companies--I mean health insurance companies. What else the state Medicaid program advocates for-for health care for the poor. We interviewed local journalists who covered health care. IG: 56:18 The Wall Street Journal or? PG: 56:19 No, local journalists. IG: 56:20 Local journalists. PG: 56:21 You know what, journalists with the local newspaper that were the healthcare specialists. IG: 56:31 So, what were- what was the result of these findings in terms of change in direction of- PG: 56:43 Well, I think people-people understood what was going on in the healthcare system a lot better than they had before. IG: 56:51 Yeah. PG: 56:51 You know, I cannot point to something that they did because they were better informed. Interestingly, there was a lot always interest in those 12 sites, those 12 metropolitan areas, in finding out how they were different from other places around the country. IG: 57:13 So, these findings came to light in which form, you know- PG: 57:19 In numerous- IG: 57:21 I am not familiar with the world of Washington or policy making and so yeah. PG: 57:27 And numerous publications. IG: 57:29 Yes, numerous publications, so- PG: 57:31 Publications and media interviews. Well, I mean many of the publications, some were articles in peer reviewed journals like health affairs or the New England Journal of Medicine. Many were just, you know, issue briefs, research briefs, published on our website. PG: 57:51 And they had a very big list. You had a very big- PG: 57:55 Oh yeah, you know, 10,000 people, you know, received emails when new publications were released. IG: 58:06 So, you know who accessed this- what kind of people accessed this information? PG: 58:13 Well, I would say both people, state, federal policy, worlds, people in industry. IG: 58:20 Right. PG: 58:20 You know, hospital executives, insurance executives, you know, physician groups. They were the audience. We did not write them for the general public. IG: 58:31 Yeah. GG: 58:32 But they were available. PG: 58:33 They were available. Yeah. IG: 58:35 Does it does- are you still continuing this work? PG: 58:39 No-no. The um- well, you know, the- this function for 19 years, which is a very long time for foundation funded activities, and just the funding could not be sustained. And so, I left in the end of 2013. And became a faculty member at the University of Southern California. IG: 59:12 Oh, that is where I worked, the library faculty. Beginning library faculty. PG: 59:17 I see, yeah. So, I was at the public and still am at the public policy school. But living here. IG: 59:26 You were living here so, but you shuttle back and forth. PG: 59:30 Well, not a lot I do, I do some teaching there, some teaching online. IG: 59:34 I see, I see, I see. PG: 59:36 And I am part of a research group. And you know, these days, you do not need to be physically there. IG: 59:41 It is a great school. I was there in the early (19)90s, and it already was acquiring a reputation of becoming the NYU of the West. It was no longer thought of as the university of the spoiled children. [laughter]I could see us, but it has a fantastic music school, fantastic linguistics. I mean, these are [crosstalk] PG: 1:00:11 Yeah, it is very hard to get in these days. IG: 1:00:13 Very-very. PG: 1:00:14 Undergraduates, at least, yeah, so that, so I joined that faculty, and two years ago, the actually a wealthy individual who had actually been instrumental in setting up the Economics and Policy Center I was affiliated with, called the Schaeffer Center for-for Health Policy and Economics. The Mr. Schaefer wanted to create a partnership between the Schaeffer Center at USC and Brookings, and so that is what led me to come to Brookings, to lead that partnership from Brookings. IG: 1:01:14 So, what-what is now the focus of your work? PG: 1:01:18 It is all on analyzing and developing health policies, health policies. So, I have done a number of different things. IG: 1:01:36 Oh yes. I mean, it is a stellar career. PG: 1:01:38 But that is doing different things, rather than contrast to my father and brother, each of whom had one job in their lives- IG: 1:01:46 Yes. PG: 1:01:49 -changes, I get bored with things. IG: 1:01:51 Right. I understand, but you and your wife- PG: 1:01:56 With everything except women. IG: 1:01:59 Let us, let us, let us just talk about this for the few minutes that you ever meet. So how did you meet your wife? PG: 1:02:08 I do not know exactly, but I was a senior. I was a senior, and she was a freshman at-at Harpur, and it was maybe about halfway through that year. GG: 1:02:23 I do not know exactly either. Most people have a certain date. So, we just, we met sometime, I think maybe spring. PG: 1:02:35 Yeah, probably, I mean, probably the spring semester. GG: 1:02:37 Yeah, he graduated, but then he was in Boston, and I was still at Harpur, and it was not quite so easy in those days to stay in touch. You could, if you but we did not know each other that much that deeply at that point, so I guess we did not. We stopped dating at that point. And then when I moved to Boston after college. We met again. PG: 1:03:03 Yes, that is three years later. GG: 1:03:05 Yeah, and then we got married within the year, yeah, six months or something like that. Because, in a sense, I kind of knew him. I just-just when we had moved to Boston, my roommate and I, we just assumed he was married, but we knew he would know the area. We both knew him a little bit, and so I would just ring him up and-and he was not in town, but he when he came back, he contacted me, and we started dating. IG: 1:03:41 And you discovered that he was not married. GG: 1:03:43 Yeah [laughter] That was even better. PG: 1:03:46 And ironically, this is when I had mentioned that not ready to start a thesis, I was working for a consulting firm and was in Nova Scotia. That is when she contacted me, when I was in Nova Scotia, but when I came back IG: 1:04:00 And you were happy that she contacted. PG: 1:04:02 Yes. IG: 1:04:04 What did you think of Gail at the time? What was she like? Was she the same person that she is now? I mean, some essence of her probably. PG: 1:04:13 Oh, of course, yes. IG: 1:04:15 So, was she the same person? How has she changed? Do you think- PG: 1:04:20 No one has ever asked me that. I mean, I am essentially the same person. Yeah, of course, she has changed. IG: 1:04:31 Yes. How about you? What-what-what-what would your classmates say about you from the time of Harpur College? Could they have predicted that you would have the major career that you did? PG: 1:04:47 Well, I was a good student there, at least for the last two plus years and but I do not know what they would have could have predicted. GG: 1:04:58 He is so understated. He was, like number two in the class. He was the top econ student. And Paul would say this, but I can say it. PG: 1:05:12 But in a sense, actually, what maybe-maybe people would be surprised by, and maybe they would not be, because, say, as a top student going to Harvard, they would have thought, oh, he will be a famous professor, and that is not the career I did. GG: 1:05:31 Paul was ahead. It is sort of in the vanguard of academic people who began to do more practical work than applied work. Academics tend to look down in almost irrespective one, well, maybe philosophy, but- IG: 1:05:49 No, I know the syndrome. GG: 1:05:51 Yeah, and Paul was really brave when he did not mention this. But when he left Duke, did not take his two-year leave every single close friend of his in academia said, "Do not do that and do not leave it. Do not leave academia." And when he was thinking of leaving, he had no support from his friends, really. He had a lot of support from his wife, because happy he was, but and then as far as I was concerned, that is all they counted. But the- but I felt that it was kind of a brave step. May not sound so brave looking back now, but at the time, it was a big deal to be someone who had the academic credentials to be a tenured professor at such a young age at Duke. He was really good and-and he just did not like it. He did not thrive in the environment. And he was wise enough, and we were all supportive enough of him to say. IG: 1:06:54 And this was in what just remind me what the years were. GG: 1:06:58 I do not know. you remember. PG: 1:06:59 That was probably 1978. IG: 1:07:00 1978. PG: 1:07:01 Yes, it is actually so I would say that my peers would have expected me to have a successful career. But I think only the ones that perhaps knew me really well might have imagined anything like the course it took. IG: 1:07:21 Well, I mean- PG: 1:07:22 In fact, they would have been very difficult, even for people that certainly I did not know, IG: 1:07:26 You did not know. How could they have. PG: 1:07:28 Yes, how could they have only, I am just saying think there is room for a very wise person. IG: 1:07:33 Yes-yes. There is always room for a very wise observing person. PG: 1:07:38 That is right. Actually, I will have to ask, we are actually, in a month from now, seeing an old friend from Harpur in New York, and we will have to ask him how surprised, how surprised he was. He was my roommate, friend a year or two. IG: 1:07:57 It is 4:30 if you have to do this. PG: 1:08:01 Yeah. I- IG: 1:08:02 I will. I would like to continue a little bit with Gail. PG: 1:08:05 Sure. Okay, I [crosstalk] IG: 1:08:06 If you- absolutely we can go on if you have time. But- PG: 1:08:10 Actually, I could spend another five or 10 minutes. IG: 1:08:13 Okay, all right. Well, yes- IG: 1:08:16 That is great. I have, I have- GG: 1:08:17 My schedule is flexible. IG: 1:08:18 Yeah, mine is too. My daughter is coming at eight, so I am not going to be here until 8. [laughs]. Okay, so more about you know, Gail and did you feel that during the during your time that the expectations for women students were different than they were for you know- so, you know, people had no problem predicting that Paul would have, you know, the stellar career, but did they have the same expectations for women students, although these were exceptional women students. GG: 1:09:01 It is an interesting question. I think that the university, there were many things about Binghamton University that I really did not care for. I found like little provincial and I felt isolated. I did not- I actually would have been more comfortable in a larger university, and I never realized that about myself. That is not Binghamton fault. That was right. That is just something you learn about yourself. But I would say that the academic environment was too theoretical in almost all disciplines, no matter what subject matter you picked, they took the theoretical perspective. You know, people moaned over the fact that the psych department only was experimental psych, no clinical. And I- IG: 1:09:57 The other day, I heard, said that, um, the clinical side was experimenting on mice. PG: 1:10:05 Yeah, well, that is what she means by experimental. Experimental means with my clinical- IG: 1:10:11 Those are the wet labs. Those are the- so I see. GG: 1:10:15 Yeah, and that. And when I started my math, unlike Paul, who had actually a more practical calculus course, I was hit with theoretical calculus from day one and it was like way over my head. Actually, would not have been over my head if I actually applied myself. But- PG: 1:10:33 You know, I was thinking about that my professor for math. It was his textbook that he used in my class. [laughs] GG: 1:10:40 I remember when I met Paul, he said, "Oh, you should use this textbook, because it will explain it so much better." But anyway, I would say that the academic environment was very welcoming, and it did not matter that I was a woman, I felt, I thought I had lots of opportunities within the university environment. After all, I was doing these sketches, there was another person who was also capable of those sketches, but I got to do them, and he was the other one was a fellow. I never felt discriminated against as a woman, and I know I was sensitive to it because of my mom, who was always pointing out inequities, and I went to an all-girls high school, a magnet school in Manhattan. And- IG: 1:11:29 Where did you go? GG: 1:11:30 Hunter College High School. And so, I would say that I was somewhat primed, even though I do not think I am a strident or feminist. I cannot say I have noticed anything. And I would say that I was also very lucky in my career that I have always had male mentors who did not hit on me. They were great people. They were- it was almost like father figures more. It is kind of the way you think it should be- IG: 1:12:03 Yeah. GG: 1:12:04 and I- IG: 1:12:04 Very lucky. GG: 1:12:05 I think I have been. I do not know whether it is I am so-so used to dealing with I had a lot of male cousins; I and I had a lot of male friends growing up, I was kind of a tomboy, and so maybe I just interact with men in a different way. IG: 1:12:22 In a different way. GG: 1:12:22 But whatever it is, I never felt discriminated against. What I did feel is that I thought that there was a lot out there in the world that had sort of institutionalized sexism more- IG: 1:12:39 Such as such as your first job out of college, being secretary. You went on- GG: 1:12:44 I was not sure that my professors could help me break into the chemistry lab, maybe, but I did not think so. And I was right on- PG: 1:12:52 I had this perception of college. I did not expect that the women were going to just get married and stay home. I do not think many of the women in my class got married when they graduated. Most of them got work of some sorts, and that may have been, you know, distinct from, say, a lot of other colleges. GG: 1:13:18 Yeah, a fair number of women, maybe-maybe the women, you know. But I thought there were quite a few in my year that married. After we-we married, not that soon after I finished college, really. PG: 1:13:30 Yeah. Well, three, four years after. GG: 1:13:34 No. IG: 1:13:35 Oh yeah, that is right. GG: 1:13:36 Nine months. PG: 1:13:37 Yeah. IG: 1:13:38 I mean, you were also, especially your generation was going, I mean, you were the same generation, but your graduating class, this was the time of Woodstock, of a lot of the youth culture and the rebellion of the new youth culture. PG: 1:13:57 I should probably go now. Thank you very much, Irene. IG: 1:13:59 Thank you. PG: 1:14:00 Enjoy. GG: 1:14:04 Thank you. One thing I would have to say is one of my biggest support in anything that I have done since I met him was Paul. He never, ever held me back in any way, he was always supportive, so maybe because he thought it would be much worse, leaving me frustrated at home. [laughs] I do not know. He is not self-serving, so it is just, if he would just take over child care. He was not much of a cook, but he could reheat things, and the kids used to call him the king of reheating. But he was always there to support whatever I had to do, whatever I had a class or something to go to, no problem. IG: 1:14:59 So, it maybe you know more a question of you know his particular personality and- GG: 1:15:09 [crosstalk] IG: 1:15:09 and his family background. GG: 1:15:12 His father jumped in and helped out too. IG: 1:15:15 It was less patriarchal. Do you or not at all- do you remember the (19)60s climate of, you know, rebelliousness, of drug, sex and rock and roll, of questioning everything, fighting the man. Did that have any impact? Or were you- GG: 1:15:39 Much more on me- IG: 1:15:40 Yes. GG: 1:15:41 -then Paul, because graduating in (19)68 was already seemed like the height of it. The beginning of the red wave. Certainly, there was much more political activity at that point than I remembered when I first started college. IG: 1:15:57 Yes. GG: 1:15:58 And-and I was not in the forefront of these movements. I never did drugs. I can be ditzy enough without drugs or alcohol. I can do that all on my own. And I have never had a taste for alcohol and-and I really did not like smoke that much so, but I had a lot of friends who were deep into marijuana culture. I am one of these people. I tend to have people friends from all walks of life. Is funny. I still have evangelical friends and I have socialist friends. IG: 1:16:42 Because you were comfortable with these different political uh- GG: 1:16:47 I guess so. I am always interested in what people how they come to these decisions, what drives them. What motivates them. And sometimes they are very nice people, even who do not agree with their political perspective. The Vietnam War was horrible. It started to come home to us more and more. You were a little isolated from it on campus, because in those days, there was like one television in-in each dorm, I think in the lobby area there would be a television, but you did not really get all that news. I did not, I do not think I even got a newspaper when I was in college, so I felt actually more isolated from the world than when I was living at home, where I would see newspapers and read them each day and but still, the news eventually came on campus, and Harpur was, I think, on the early side of these activities, I come from Staten Island, which was, you know, a great draft board. As far as recruiting for the army, a lot of people, a lot of people signed up for service. I know a lot of the names on that wall on the mall. I feel bad the people I went to elementary school with gone for what no purpose. What I think I missed in college was the beginnings of the feminist movement that seemed to my younger cousins kind of bring me into that more. IG: 1:18:25 But did not that beginnings, I mean, did not it kind of start in the very early (19)70s, or? GG: 1:18:32 I think it did. I think that is what I mean. I think so it was after. IG: 1:18:36 Right-right. GG: 1:18:37 And the same with civil rights. I seem to be a little bit more after my college years. So, I became aware of it just more through reading papers and being back into the real world. IG: 1:18:51 Right-right-right. Were there any students of color that you remember? IG: 1:18:57 Oh, yeah. GG: 1:18:58 Yeah. One of my objections to Harpur is I was accustomed to more diverse student body, and Harpur was the first time I was at a place where it seemed like everyone was Jewish, and I had not been, you know, that familiar with that uniform culture. It was interesting. But they- I think the last year, year and a half, there was more of an attempt to increase diversity. And there were a number of students that came on who were of African American descent, mostly as I recall. I do not think Hispanic or Asian. I do not recall seeing, and actually, I became friendly with some of the people in the program. It was pretty tough on them. They really stood out like sore thumbs. It would not have been as- it would have been a lot easier in a place that had more diversity to begin with. And I-I just know I had some friends who dated fellas in that program, and they got a lot of static in those days. This was interesting. The good friend who was started dating an African American who started to come to the university, and she said to me, you know, all these really liberal people who are out, you know, raging against the war and this and that, the other said they are just as racist as anyone else. And I trusted what she was saying. That was her experience. It was the comments she received and because she was dating someone who was different. IG: 1:18:58 Yeah. IG: 1:20:48 yeah, I think she probably was right. GG: 1:20:51 I am sure she was but frankly, you know, my parents were not ecstatic about Paul being Jewish. IG: 1:20:59 Yeah. GG: 1:20:59 So, I have seen it from the other side. But then when they really met Paul, they loved him. So sometimes you just have to get to know people. IG: 1:21:11 I think so. I think it is I agree, I agree. I think it is a question of exposure. And, uh- GG: 1:21:18 Yeah. So Harpur did not really have a diverse environment. Most days it was uni, fairly liberal, which was more than I was, more liberal than I had seen before. So, I found it that part interesting. IG: 1:21:34 Right-right. So, you know, I am just, you know, you said a lot of very interesting things, that you were given a theoretical education. You know, you were given a theoretical- you were given validation, you know, both as a scientist, as a student of literature, as an artist. Do you think you would have had this opportunity, you know, at another school, at a larger school? I mean, it is too theoretical to say, but you know- GG: 1:22:17 Actually, it is not, because I have my graduate school experience too. There is something about me that I the way, I guess I interact with people or whatever, I have never lacked for support or for mentors, and they just come out of the woodwork. And I do not know how it happens, but I am really lucky that way, I, for example, took to cut down my commute to graduate school. Actually, took some courses, biochemistry courses over at NIH, they had that evening program, and my university was willing to accept the credits. And it just turned out, you know, I think it is because I would stop stay after class and ask questions, and I became friendly with the professors of the course, and that is how I got my job at NIH. Go figure you cannot plan on it. IG: 1:23:17 No, you cannot. GG: 1:23:17 You just cannot plan on happening. But that is exactly how my career has always unfolded. I just have these opportunities fall in front of me, and I take them. IG: 1:23:33 Give us another example. GG: 1:23:38 I think, well, when I was a great graduate student. I-I got a first I started by getting an internship. I got a summer I got a summer internship at a really wonderful lab at NIH, directly from my biochemistry class, they had said, you know, this guy is really good, and he could use someone for the summer. So, I went and talked with him and-and then from there, the fellow who was my mentor at that lab, who unfortunately has passed away, Howard. He went. He met my son, who at that time was a budding computer scientist, but he just and mathematician and everything that he has become. And Howard just went to a meeting and said, "You know, I know about this really young kid. He was too young to really take a job, but he would be great for anyone who needs blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And Adam got a summer internship at NIH too. IG: 1:24:59 Right. [crosstalk] but, you know, part of it is being an insider already, and that that sort of exposes you to the opportunities. You know, it is, I mean, if you were coming out, if you were coming cold, into this, it would have been maybe a more difficult proposition, but you were already in the mix. GG: 1:25:22 Yeah, but they were you know- IG: 1:25:24 [crosstalk] of course. GG: 1:25:25 I was in that class. But [crosstalk] who got- IG: 1:25:29 No but it is but you were, you were the one who was chosen. So- GG: 1:25:33 Yeah, so I was, I always felt like I was fortunate that way. IG: 1:25:37 Yeah. GG: 1:25:40 It is another way. Oh, I know, I had a brief interlude before I went into bio, molecular biology. I spent some time, felt a had a degree in audiology, and I worked for a while there, thinking this would be a very easy kind of time work. You know, I could do that handling with the family and blah, blah, blah, and I did not. I had underestimated just how boring it was. So, I became interested in, I became friendly with the neurologists and the rehab center where I worked, and they would invite me to come in, and we would autopsies of some of the patient. Oh, this is very little gross for some people, but for some of the patients where I had helped with the diagnosis, the- they would invite me to come and see what the physical brain looked like. They were dissecting. They were trying to better understand what was the cause of the problem. There is a lot that you cannot do neurologically. IG: 1:26:51 There is what? GG: 1:26:52 A lot that about neuroanatomy and neurology. It is not well understood even today, no less back then. And so, then that led me to take a neuroanatomy course in the medical school, and I got the top grade in the class on the exam. And the professor did not know who I was, so he held back giving the- he was giving out all the papers, and he held mine for last because he wanted to see who I was. IG: 1:27:28 So that is, well, I mean, it is, it is obviously, you know, it is talent, and I think, you know, kind of an open mindedness and GG: 1:27:39 Curiosity, yeah, I am much less disciplined than Paul. Paul is, like, really a good student. I am a good student if I am interested and if I am not interested well [crosstalk] IG: 1:27:53 But it seems that he gets he gets forward very quickly. So, he- GG: 1:27:56 He does. IG: 1:27:57 He tackles a problem, and then he moves on. GG: 1:28:00 Yeah, he gets restless. IG: 1:28:01 Yeah. GG: 1:28:02 The Seven Year Itch, always Yeah. So, I guess I get restless too. But I was really particularly one of the things I used to really like about working at NIH and I switched from the lab into infectious disease program grants work. Um, and again, because a friend of mine, a clinical fellow who worked in the lab where I worked, we just became friendly, and she had moved over to this position, and then she had an opportunity to recruit me. So, I interviewed, and I was accepted for the job the- but so I became started to get into, back into clinical work and but really using my research background to help with understand the science and help people with their grants. And so, some of it was very administrative. Some of it was program development. IG: 1:29:10 I think that is fascinating. The program development aspect, I think would be very interesting. Did you find it? GG: 1:29:16 I did, yeah, I liked it a lot. I actually ran a US Japan program. IG: 1:29:24 A what? GG: 1:29:26 A US Japan program? IG: 1:29:27 A US Japan, I just did not hear so- GG: 1:29:29 Infection in mycobacterial research. So, the diseases of tuberculosis and leprosy, they are bigger public health issues in Asia, and certainly, when the program was started, they were much bigger. These diseases are, you know, are treated by have drug treatments now that kind of help that they help quite a bit, especially with leprosy, TB still [inaudible] problem. But anyway, yeah, there are programs like that that you can run. I had a lot of there are big projects that we conceive of. We put out an announcement things. Group gets funded, and then I have to have oversight over that project. I started to become the specialist in diagnostics for mycobacterial diseases, and that was very interesting, because it tied in my whole background with small business, because it was actually the small business programs where most of the diagnostics applications were coming in from, and we had noticed- IG: 1:30:48 Please explain that. GG: 1:30:50 Well, NIH has set aside has is required by Congress, and much of the federal government is required by Congress to set aside a certain amount of funding. It is actually a percent of your funds that you receive from Congress have to be set aside and used for small business projects to stimulate small businesses to support their work science. So, these are small businesses that are often offshoots of academic work. Someone from a university has built a patent on something they, on the side, develop a small business, have a few students or people work for them. They put in applications through the small business program. And there are, there is a limit to the type of project that you can do in a small setting like that. And it turns out that diagnostics is a very good approach for small business. It is something you can actually make money on. Have a product that you ultimately sell to a big company, and it is very doable. IG: 1:31:59 Such as I remember reading about a battery size sensor that can diagnose a range of diseases from your breath. It is like- GG: 1:32:16 Yeah, breathalyzer. IG: 1:32:17 Breathalyzer. GG: 1:32:18 Yeah, even though the scientist [crosstalk] IG: 1:32:20 Yeah, really who is the scientist? GG: 1:32:22 Michael Phillips is one of the one of these developers, I think he has a compassionate use approval from FDA for his using heart rejection, IG: 1:32:36 Yeah, for multiple purposes, I think. GG: 1:32:40 He was trying for lung cancer, if for TB, it has been a little [inaudible]. I do not know how his work- IG: 1:32:47 That is right. And the idea of these breathalyzers is that they could be easily used by people in under developed countries where there is no not, not as much theories too. That is a theory. But in reality, that does not work well. GG: 1:33:03 In reality, the world is more complex. IG: 1:33:06 Of course. GG: 1:33:07 Yeah. So, you can get a lot of anomalies that your equipment picks up, too, especially if you are in an area where this is disease is common, and everyone has that. So, there is a lot of it floating around in the air. I see you have to be sure you are picking up something that is specific from that person. And you do not know if that, and there are a lot of technical aspects, but in theory, it has a lot of potential. There is potential for blood tests running able to help. It was, it was a perfect program for me, and everyone began to realize that, and they were sending all the people to me, so I became the go to person at our Institute for small business projects in mycobacterial diseases. IG: 1:33:58 That is, that is fantastic. GG: 1:34:00 Yeah. So, I started out as a literature major, but anyway, well, life evolved. IG: 1:34:08 So, are you still in touch with your Binghamton classmates? Any of them? Or do you have any? GG: 1:34:18 I was in touch with three people from school. Unfortunately, two of them have passed away, and the third one I have kind of fallen out with. I do not see her so much. I saw her up till about maybe five, six years ago, something like that, just off and on. But I think the ones that I lost, I think were the ones that I was closest with, really, and that is unfortunate. IG: 1:34:54 So-so, you know, I think that you. We are kind of coming to sort of a natural end, unless you know, so-so-so you know, some of the things that I some of the concluding questions that I ask my interview is, so what-what you know, life lessons you could you impart to current and future students at Binghamton, what are the most important elements for success, for your success, that really have characterized your career GG: 1:35:44 Well, I think starting out, especially if they are young, they should spend some time getting advice on how to tackle college. I think that there is advice given today that was not available at all when we were there. I think it would have helped some people. I am sure I would have benefited from some advice I learned somewhere between college and graduate school. I learned how to really focus and what was really needed in a classroom, academic setting. And so, I just went through those courses, breezed through them. I think that it would have been if I had just a little bit of advice on organizing and how to go about doing things. I think it would have helped me at that age, for sure. I think Paul stabilized me so much that by the time going through graduate school, it was really easy, even though we had two children at home, and I was handling that on top. I think the second thing though is I would really encourage people to reach out to professors and to reach out to the graduate students and try to engage in an intellectual life in college, because you- it is the one place where You can get an intellectual life, you cannot be guaranteed of it once you leave college. You know your next-door neighbors may be gun toting rednecks. They may be a lot of fun at a barbecue. But they are not going to help you on an intellectual life and-and I find that it can be hard at different points in your life. You really want to know what it feels like to use your brain and to think intellectually so that you can come back to it at different points in your life. If you have never experienced it in college, then when do you expect to and I think colleges should that is something. Our son went to Harvard as an undergraduate, and one of their strengths, they have a lot of weaknesses. It was great for him, but it was one of the strengths, is that they make this intellectual home at every dorm. They have an intellectual life that goes on, the graduate students and people who proctors, who are all part of stimulating intellectual life, and-and Harpur had some of that when we were there. We had people in the dorms, and there was a little bit of that stimulation. And they sometimes younger faculty would be in the dining hall, and you would get a chance to talk with them. Maybe I can get to know them really well. I think that is really important. I think that is something that colleges would strive for, and I think that students should expect and try to get out of college, because it-it then helps you come out into the adult world and-and interact with adults. And to have it-it raises your expectations out of life. IG: 1:39:13 Yes, I think very well, very well, very well. put, very well put, you know, and it just gives you, it is so important to have an intellectual life, because it is part of the human experience that not everybody has an opportunity to- GG: 1:39:34 Yeah, and if you are going to college, that is what you should be expecting, not a technical training. IG: 1:39:41 Yeah, I agree. I agree. Any concluding remarks, anything? GG: 1:39:49 That is fine. [laughs] (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Ginsburg and Gail Ginsburg Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ginsburg, Paul ; Ginsburg, Gail ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Paul Ginsburg, PhD is the director, USC-Brookings Schaeffer Initiative for Health Policy and the Leonard D. Schaeffer Chair in Health Policy Studies, The Brookings Institution; and Professor of Health Policy and Director of Public Policy, Schaeffer Center for Health Policy and Economics, University of Southern California. He also worked at the Rand Corporation, the Congressional Budget Office (1978-84), wrote policies that informed Hillary Clinton's health policy and founded the Center for Studying Health System Change. Gail is a microbiologist with the grants office at the National Institutes of Health. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Paul and Gail Ginsburg.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-12 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 99:53 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/caa543c05169d9bdab41084b0b5b7e6e.mp3 fe72dd8dd104914af745b8e6a8fb8a37 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-03-01 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paula A. Baxter Year of Graduation 1975 Biographical Text Paula A. Baxter is a retired curator, librarian, educator, and independent professional writer specializing in art history and Native American jewelry. She served for 22 years as curator of the Art &amp; Architecture Collection at the New York Public Library. She previously worked at the Museum of Modern Art library and several art colleges. Baxter earned her B.A. and M.A. in Art History from <span class="hover:entity-accent entity-underline inline cursor-pointer align-baseline"><span class="whitespace-normal">Binghamton University</span></span> and an M.S. in Library Service from <span class="hover:entity-accent entity-underline inline cursor-pointer align-baseline"><span class="whitespace-normal">Columbia University</span></span>. She is the author of several books on Native American jewelry, including <em data-start="577" data-end="618">Encyclopedia of Native American Jewelry</em> (2000), and has published numerous articles on design history, art research, and collecting. Before relocating to Arizona in 2017, she also taught humanities as an adjunct professor at Berkeley College. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni in Library Science; Harpur College – Alumni in Art &amp; Design. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Paula Baxter Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 1 March 2019 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Now we are live. PB: 00:02 Okay. Hi, I am Paula Baxter. I graduated from Binghamton in 1975 I stayed on for two more years and got a master's in 1977. We are sitting in my backyard in Scottsdale, Arizona, and I am at this point, retired from the New York Public Library, but I am also a former adjunct professor and a professional writer, and I am working on the magnum opus of my career at this moment. I am the daughter of a man who took a long time to become a college professor. My dad was in World War Two. He was one of those 16-year-old who lied about his age and went off, and he spent three years in the South Pacific. He came home, he went to NYU on the GI Bill, and he first worked as a liquor salesman, but he wanted to teach first high school and then college. This meant my childhood involved a lot of moving around, and we finally ended up by junior high school in Oneonta, New York, upstate, where he was a professor of Spanish at the college here at Oneonta State. He did not have his PhD, however, he had a master's from University of New Mexico, where we lived for a couple years in the early (19)60s. And he very slowly- he liked to joke that he was the world's longest running PhD candidate, but there were many more, and he went to Binghamton. And so, Binghamton was firmly lodged in my mind as a place to go. I did; however, I was the only child I did not like Oneonta to grow up in. I did not have a good time. There was illness in my family. Only child students were very cliquey and laugh at me now, but one of the reasons why I wanted to go to Binghamton was that none of my classmates in high school whatsoever, planned to go to Binghamton. And when you ask these kids why, they said, too many drugs. So luckily for me, I ignored them and went to Binghamton and became a real person. IG: 02:15 Okay, so that is wonderful, a wonderful introduction. We will explore how you became a real person in Binghamton. Okay, so what were some of your first impressions of the college, Harpur College, and when did you arrive there? PB: 02:39 Yeah, I arrived in January of 1973 I had graduated a semester early from high school, and Binghamton had accepted me, but they had deferred me for a year, and this is very embarrassing, but I could not pass 11th grade math. I blame this inability to do math entirely on the fact that I moved around a lot as a kid, and every time I arrived in a new school system, they were doing a different form of math. They were very sympathetic at Binghamton because my English, my language and my history grades were top of the line, high region scores also, but that poor old math problem dragged my GPA down, so they had me go to Oneonta State for a year, where I did very well and got my feet, let us say, and arrived at Binghamton in January, 1973 and my first impression walking through the Student Union and smelling the pot. [laughter] IG: 03:41 That is a great that is a great sensory image. And so how did you respond to that? Did you- PB: 03:50 Did not bother me in the slightest. I was assigned to it this time. It was pretty new College in the Woods for my dorm residents, and the dorms were nice. They were new and fun, and I did not have the world's greatest roommates, but that all got sorted out initially, and I was overwhelmed. It was huge. And the first thing that came in very strongly to me is that I for the first time in my life being a sheltered Wasp who received her letter from the DAR at age 18. I was a minority, because a large majority of the students there were from down state, New York or the Metro New York area, and they were Jewish, and so here I was a little Wasp girl in the middle of this large college he had a kosher kitchen in the student union, which I found rather amazing, and you kind of could not miss the ambient tea. But you know what? It turned out to be wonderful. And I credit Binghamton for teaching me how to enjoy and coexist and live with diversity. And there were plenty of other upstate students there, somehow, we all found each other. And what was a very fascinating thing is that we integrated well into our fellow students’ lifestyles. And many times, when we made buddies, a couple of us would be upstate non-Jews, and then we would have one or two Jews in our in our little group. IG: 05:20 So, but the diversity was largely upstate, downstate Jewish- PB: 05:25 Right at this time, there was very small black--I did know a few black students and very small Asian. I knew one, and ironically, that was not unlike Oneonta, where I went to high school with no black, or I went to high school with no ethnic students at all, and there were three Jewish families in town, so I had had a very sheltered existence in terms of the world at Oneonta get to Binghamton, and it is a whole other ball game. IG: 05:57 So how do you remember, what are your first impression of the campus physically? I mean, did you, I mean, you are from upstate New York, so- PB: 06:09 It was much bigger than Oneonta. The architecture was very diverse, which I found interesting. At Binghamton, things were built at different times. As I said, I went into new dorms, but they had an older residential area called Dickerson, and there were lots of different campus buildings that were all architecturally different. It was a hodgepodge. There were nice outdoor sculptures, and there was a quad, and there was the library, which I gravitated to at once because I lived at my library in Oneonta, at the town library, which was a nice old library. IG: 06:47 Can you describe the library for us in the early (19)70s? What was that like? PB: 06:53 I am trying to remember. It was not as it is now. It was largely floor by floor on a lateral rectangular layout, but there were some underground areas that were reached by bridges, and the art library was down in an underground part of the library that had its own spaces, shared with the music division. And so architecturally was interesting, a little foreign. You have to remember, this is the pre computer age. The only machinery we had there were microfilm machines and the early photocopiers, which always seemed to break down every five minutes. IG: 07:34 But you had slides. I mean, we will talk [crosstalk] we will talk about that. And was the art museum- PB: 07:44 That was active. It was over in the building. It was on the quad. I think I cannot remember what they called the building. There are things there I am stubbornly forgetting. But it had the large statue of Pegasus on it, which was a big joke about Pegasus. And we shared quarters. The art department was there. The first thing I have to tell you, however, is I did not go right to the art department. I came in in (19)73 planning to be an archeologist. So, I was an anthropology major. And I really do not they were in separate buildings, and I do not remember much about them, except for the physical Anthro lab. IG: 08:21 What drew you to archeology? PB: 08:24 Okay, this is an interesting story. It was Native American. I wanted to be at that time Binghamton's degree was called the anthropology of the North American Indian. I wanted to be a field archeologist. I did my field work in my first at the end of my first year in Binghamton, and we discovered that I could not work in the field. I had a million allergies, and I was a bug magnet, and they would and we, there might be 25 of us on the dig, and none of them would get bit, and I would be bit to the point that I was bloody. The professors, the field supervisors, they told me, do not shower, do not use soap, do not use shampoo. I did all those things, and at the end of the term, they said to me, “You just cannot do field work.” And I felt like my heart was broken, but-but because they were intellectually astute at Binghamton and the professors in anthropology, not one of whom do I remember their names, by the way, but they were good. They recommended I look at the Art History program, and I did, and I was welcomed in. And the professors were top of the line. They were all refugees from Ivy League, and many of them left after I finished my master's, to go back to Ivy League, and that is what I did. I ended up taking an art history BA and MA. IG: 09:52 And what drew you to Native American culture? PB: 09:59 We had a Native American in our family that we did not know anything about. IG: 10:04 A relative? PB: 10:04 A relative, you have to remember this is from the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century. You have to understand that my mom and dad's family grew up upstate New York, rural, and they were prejudiced, like many people, and they attempted to hide the identity of this relative, and I became very intrigued by that. I found photos and I found data, and I was only able to determine that he was a Seneca Indian whose family were wiped out by a typhus-typhus epidemic in the early 1900s and he was adopted by a Baptist missionary family whose last name was Baxter. How interesting. And they hid his identity, so we had the- my mother had an interest in this, even though it was not her family, it was my father's. We had virtually no information about him. This is my problem here. [coughs] But anyway- IG: 11:08 He has been a great grand uncle? PB: 11:12 Great grandfather, as far as and the other thing, however, you need to understand, because I did try to look into it to see if there was a connection that I could prove historically. Because, if you may not know, in the United States, Indian tribes are regulated by the blood quantum level. They are the only ones that are of all minorities in the country. However, the Senecas are matrilineal, and this was a paternal relative, so I did not qualify. I am probably 1/64 Iroquois, Seneca, as they would say, how Dasani. I have no family- IG: 11:36 Have you done DNA test? PB: 11:47 No, I did not. I did not do that. So that was I felt with that background, I was officially interested. My mother was interested. She kept some books on anthropology around the house. But I also was interested in classical Greek and Rome. And a matter of fact, my MA thesis now my BA thesis was on Roman painting. So, you see, I sidelined the Native American interest in and it became a dual interest with first, initially classical Greece and Rome. And then I became, my master's was expertise in English and American 19th century decorative art, which led me ultimately to the jewelry. And I had very good training for that. IG: 12:42 Do you remember the professors you studied? PB: 12:44 I remember every one of my professors and-and then I want to mention one who was not one who was a professor, but not in art history, because I was mindful of your questions. My-my undergraduate advisor was Vincent Bruno, very distinguished expert in underwater archeology, and he had written a book on the Parthenon. And I wrote my master's thesis. Sorry, I am sorry. Ba thesis under him on Roman painting. But two of the professors were very good to me, and I did the dangerous thing. And when I stayed on for the MA, I switched over to- IG: 13:22 Why do you say the dangerous thing? PB: 13:23 Well, because you can alienate your professor. However, Bruno and I managed to stay friends, and I used to see him after college, I stayed in touch with these three professors I am mentioning now after college, who were delighted by the career turn I did, because they wanted me to stay on for a PhD, and I left them to go to Columbia University and get my MLS in art librarianship. But Kenneth Lindsay and Albert Boime were my MA advisors. Ken was very good to many students, mentored a lot of them. And Albert Boime is brilliant 19th century scholar, but lots of thing, and he was a Marxist art historian at that time. Marxist art history is a little old fashioned. You have to understand that I went to college so far back that a lot of the current methodologies did not develop. But Marxism is really social history, which is what I wanted, and that is the methodology I adopted. IG: 14:19 It is, it is, it is a critical lens through which to see art. PB: 14:25 How art is developed- IG: 14:27 Is Terry Eagleton, one of the Marxist I mean, he is a literature critic. PB: 14:34 Was he at Binghamton at the time? IG: 14:36 No, but he is a Marxist. PB: 14:39 Yeah. Al was Albert was probably, I was that way too. Yeah-yeah. And he wrote unabashedly, Marxi- Marxist theory. He is famous for a number of books. His most famous book is about the academy the in both England and France, the idea of the Parisian Academy in the 19th century. But he was very diverse. He wrote an article about the pre-Raphaelites, and had other interests as well. IG: 15:08 Okay. PB: 15:08 I was his grad assistant in, um [crosstalk] IG: 15:12 How-how was your thinking personality shaping through all of these courses, and the attention that you were getting in class, and um- PB: 15:24 I was growing and I was developing as a person. I was very repressed in high school. I was repressed because of my family situation. I actually had almost no boyfriends. I did not fit into all the cliques in Oneonta and kind of went from one to one to one, which we turned out to be my personality. I am the kind of person that breaks through all the cliques and is a friend and I and interestingly, my father was that way as a faculty member too. They could all be fighting with each other, but everybody liked my father, and he united them, etc. I could go from clique to clique in different group, perhaps because I was a solitary girl child, but as an adult, critical thinking adult, Binghamton was excellent for me, and the library did play a role, because I had always been bookish. I always read a lot. I am a speed reader, by the way, which is something we found out in high school, [crosstalk], and it is just a natural speed reader who retains and I still I read a lot of books. Now I read, I read all kinds of fiction and genre and nonfiction. So, the library answered a lot of needs, but socially, I bloomed and I developed. And probably the most critical thing of all, I should tell you, although we could save it for the end, is that I met the love of my life in Binghamton, although I was wise and kept him as a friend, and he was a friend, and we did not start dating and become a couple until I was in grad school. He graduated (19)76. And- IG: 16:54 A Grad school in Binghamton? PB: 16:56 No, he graduates undergraduate. He graduated in 1976 from Binghamton, English major with a Medieval Studies Certificate, and- IG: 17:04 So, he probably knows Kenneth Lindsay. PB: 17:07 Well, his professors were you will know him. I am blanking. If you gave me some names, I would know Charmack, Paul Charmack, Robin Oggins, and a few others whose names I have forgotten. He had a medieval certificate. He and I, next month, in February, in March, will be celebrating our 40th winning anniversary. IG: 17:33 What is his name? PB: 17:34 Barry Katzen. IG: 17:37 Well, congratulations. [crosstalk] PB: 17:39 There used to be a joke in my mother's time about how girls would go to college to get their Mrs. In the 70s, we totally spat upon that idea, and we are not into it. I naturally had to become a feminist at this time period, and that is partly why I kept my-my maiden name, but also because I had student loans due, and I just did not want to do the paperwork to change to a married name. But what was the point I was going to make? That it was a byproduct. He was a friend I made. And I also think that it was very good that we stayed friends for a couple years before we became romantically involved. I think that is why our marriage is endured. We know a number of couples in Binghamton who married while in college, and every one of those couples is divorced now. So, we waited, and it was very good. Now, one thing I wanted to say, because you want to talk about life experiences, and I have to laugh, Barry and I took a course together, an English course under Alvin Voss, who we were very fond of in the English Department. And it was on Shakespeare. And I used to, I remember I was naughty. I used to slip notes to Barry sometimes during class, but to this day, he and I will quote lines from Shakespeare. Will have memories of a line like when I was at NYPL and they were getting ready to have layoffs at the during the recession of 2008-9. I remembered a quote from As You Like It, when I was at home I was in a better place, or when I began writing magazine articles, I would remember brevity is the soul of wit and things of that nature. And I have to say to this day, Barry and I laughed, but we feel like that. Shakespeare class gave us an unknown at the time, but lasting connection. And of course, nowadays, well, Shakespeare can endure, and does endure, but it is funny and that we remember Voss and his lectures and his talks, whereas I have forgotten all my anthropology professors’ names, and not my art history, but a lot of other professors, and we both still remember that class. IG: 17:41 Why do you think that is? Why do you think that you have such a clear memory of that class with Barry and-and sort of, you know, a foggy memory of the other classes? PB: 18:27 I think Vos [Alvin Vos], who actually physically was kind of an unassuming, modest man, youngish at that time, spoke in a very sometimes dreamy tone of voice, very meaningful. And he had us read, not always the obvious parts from Shakespeare, but when he did, he would actually allow us into that world. And I remember that one of them we read, and that is still my favorite. And then as I began to understand that there were some possible Native American Connections in that, the tempest became my favorite play. And with the line, oh, Brave New World, this is the one where Miranda and prospect [crosstalk] exile, and it had to be his teaching, and it had to be our willingness to be receptive. And what is interesting is it was not a course that was really going to line up with what we did in our day to day lives, but it stayed with us. And I cannot explain it. I feel that there was an intellectual rigor about Binghamton's programs and all the courses that you took that was excellent, and my BA was hard earned, particularly my senior year. I should say another thing too, Barry and I were on pipe dream. So, we were connected with some of the politics on campus. We knew people in student government. Barry roomed with the President of the Student Council. And= IG: 21:50 What was his name, the- PB: 21:51 Bill Gordon. And so, we knew the student council. I do have to say, though, that compared to what was going on in the (19)60s, by (19)73, (19)74, (19)75 things were relatively calm, although there was one sit in over tuition increases that everybody was involved with. IG: 22:07 You were involved in the sit in? PB: 22:08 Well, I did not go right in, but Barry was and we knew people that were doing the sit in. We were on pipe dream. So, we sent our- IG: 22:16 Student newspaper? PB: 22:17 Yes, and I became Features Editor in (19)74 I should also say that is another connection. I was on my high school newspaper. I was on the Oneonta state newspaper. I guess I was thinking about journalism alongside or as a way of earning money, because anthropology and art history can be difficult to break into. And I got onto pipe dream. And Barry got onto pipe dream. He started out as a photographer for pipe dream, and eventually became managing editor. I was Features Editor there for the year of 1974 which is pretty cool. And I stepped out, though in (19)75 because I was a senior and my courses and my BA thesis were tough. I could not give the time and attention to pipe dream that I could previously. Barry became editor in chief of pipe dream in 1976. IG: 23:10 What kind of features article were you running at the time? Do you remember? PB: 23:14 I would report on concerts. I also had, I had writers under me. I would report on art exhibits, what was going on in the art museum, concerts, and even sometimes major concerts that came to Binghamton, to the arena, things like that. There would be people that would come to play. I remember that we had Harry Chapin, or maybe I am confusing that with Oneonta, but he would come by a few times, and other singer songwriters and features, as I can remember, that really related to art and music and cultural activities. IG: 23:41 I see. PB: 23:51 Plays. IG: 23:57 Plays. Remember any titles that were- PB: 23:59 No-no, I have to tell you, I really do not remember, and I think that it was because of the senior year. They were very demanding in the art history program, very demanding, which was good for me later in life. And then, of course, I went right into the MA which was grueling back at that time, there was a thought that I could teach college without my PhD. That changed a lot by the end of the decade. So, they were very rigorous in preparing me to teach introductory art history, which meant I had to know every image in Janssen, and part of my exam- IG: 24:25 Janssen being the textbook? PB: 24:37 Being the history, the famous history of art had 3000 images in it, and part of my master's degree in order to qualify for it were two exams. One was a written thesis, which I did with Boime, and the other were my orals. And my oral exams is I would go into an into the classroom, and they would show 12 slides. With no identification. And I had to be able to identify them. And they could be from pre-history to now and then talk about their context. And they would do sly and clever things. Renaissance closely mimicked Hellenistic Greek and Roman sculpture. You could get confused. They put something in. It was modeled on something at and the cruelest thing they did, because I missed this one. If I missed more than two, I failed. So, I could not fail. The son of the guns, and I will say it to the day this day, put up the Bury Edmund's cross without the Christ on it. And I and several colleagues were taking our orals missed that one. So, when I said it was rigorous, it was rigorous. IG: 25:48 Was it ever it- was it ever constructed without the Christ on the cross? Or did they just take it off? PB: 25:55 They take it off. I think it could be removed for cleaning. So, they had slides of it removed for cleaning and whatever. Yeah, they wanted us to be able to recognize that cross form and pin it to the time period because it was significant. The beauty for how it hand helped me in later life is to this day, if you show me a page full of various different images, I can identify right away differences and similarities and things of that nature. That is a rigorous visual training that does not happen today in current art historical training, and I do not think any students in the last 10, 20 years could handle that. IG: 26:36 Why do you think that that has changed? PB: 26:38 Because I think the entire academic picture has changed within the (19)80s, (19)90s, 2000s with No Child Left Behind. The Switch to stem as you know, there has been a movement away from liberal arts training and art history has also been a very, very rigorous, demanding field, every one of my professors was male, and yet most students, not just the Binghamton but elsewhere Columbia elsewhere, are female. Men do get ahead. I noticed you had a question about, did men do better? The few men that were interested in art history, I remember always kind of did better in terms of getting to speak more with a professor, or being called on first, or things like that. So yes, there was some mild sexism going on in there, but all of these men that I studied under undergrad and grad were themselves products of ivy league training, and they all invariably went back to Ivy League. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons why I did not go on for a PhD is that I knew Al was going to jump to UCLA, a lot of them, except for Lindsay, who stayed and was faithful, all of them went to other places and-and Bruno came down to New York, so I was able to see him there, and he And I kept up a relationship, and it was tough, but it also induced the same academic-academic snobbery in me, snobbery in me, when I talking about the library at Binghamton, because I know this is important, I got a job right away working in the library. All the art librarians, from Betty Lincoln to Thomas Jacoby were very nurturing, and I was very, very good working there. I mean, did not do anything super professional, and they encouraged me when I began to think, I am a girl from a family with no money, and they want me to stay on for a PhD, and then I am going to have to go on and move around the entire country, taking little jobs, just like my dad had to do to get to where he wanted to go, and make very little money and often be adjunct. And maybe I should do something practical. And they say I am good as a librarian. So, I went down and applied to Columbia. I was not going to go anywhere but the finest program in the country. This is what Binghamton had done to me. And I went down and I interviewed with them, and I said, “I want you to know I want to come in. I only plan to be an art librarian. I am very ambitious. I want to run one of the best art libraries in the country.” And they like that because they were very arrogant thought and knew they were the finest [crosstalk] I am blanking on the names, so forgive me, all of them, and it is just today right now, or it is an issue I have with my age, but I can remember them, and they were good. They were they were kind of arrogant there, too. And by the way, this is a digression, that department was eliminated. IG: 29:38 Oh, I know I went- PB: 29:39 [crosstalk] and that had to do with real estate. They did not play their cards, right? IG: 29:45 But it is also, it is also, I mean, this is another conversation, but it is also that they were in keeping up with all of the technological development, PB: 29:52 Right. And they did not do a good job on that. The other thing they did not do is they did not forge ties with departments like communications, journalism, because something happened out in Florida with one of their major universities there, and they eliminated the library school, and all the faculty were able to go to other positions in the college. But at that time, Columbia was on the top and they allowed me to construct a master's in library science there that was completely art oriented. I even took government documents and did the art documents from the National Endowment of the Arts. And it was also a big in for getting jobs. Why I had to work all the time. I mean, I did not say this at the beginning, but there was not money in my family. I had taken out student loans, which I paid off, or things like that, but I got scholarships there at Columbia. My workplaces, I worked at the Fashion Institute of Technology, and then I worked at, this is a stretch American Institute of Physics, in their photo archives working and they paid for my second year of library school. IG: 30:59 How wonderful. PB: 31:00 I did not stay with them. They did not mind. They paid obviously, this is a long time ago, and I got my MLS in 1979 so the Columbia connection, I would not have gone there. I would not have done as well as I did, if it had not been for the rigor of the background in both my undergraduate and then my first graduate training in Binghamton, and I did very well in library school there, and I got very great jobs, except the one thing is, I was offered a job at SUNY Purchase, straight out of library school, and Barry announced that he wanted to get out of New York. He was having existential angst, and he applied to grad school at UCLA and Wisconsin, University of Wisconsin, and we got married, and I went with him, so I deferred that job. IG: 31:50 Where did you end up going? PB: 31:51 I ended up not getting a good job. I ended up getting a parent. Oh, you guys love this. I ended up working in the agriculture college, in their library in their land, tenure library in Madison-Madison, Wisconsin, because nobody I- okay, this is a good story. IG: 32:10 Okay, tell us a good story. PB: 32:11 It is a good story. And coming from Binghamton, you can see that I already have a little intellectual snobbery, well-earned and well deserved. I applied for a job at the Madison County Technical College. So, I go in for the interview, and he looks at my resume, and he looks at my resume, and he said, “Columbia University. I do not know where that is or what that is.” He said, “I only hire University of Wisconsin graduates get out of my office.” There was a very strong- this was 1979, (19)80. There was a very strong anti- well, no, they had had a blow up. They had had the ROTC building was blown up during the (19)60s, and they blamed outside agitators from New York. However, it did not take me very long to find out that the kid who blew up the ROTC building and killed a math professor was a local Madison boy. But I would be in the student I would be in the staff lounge and just over here, well, you know him. He is a con artist. He is from New York, and I would get this. I had a great work study student who worked for me, and I am talking to her, and she was really bright. And I said, “Oh, you know, I would hire you or something like that right away, or, you know, or but I had trouble getting hired here.” And she said to me, I and she loved me, by the way. She said, “I would not hire you. You are not a UW grad.” I actually, I heard that the woman they hired instead of me at Purchase left after a year, and she was Dr. Stan. She taught at Columbia before it closed, and got a PhD from there. So, I wrote to them, and I said, “I lied.” I said, “Oh, I am coming back and I will be living right in the area. Any chance that you would interview me for the job,” they hired me right back in so I left my husband behind for a year in Madison. He finished his master's degree, and I came and lived by myself in White Plains, where I lived for 31 years and worked at SUNY Purchase. From SUNY Purchase, I was lured to the Museum of Modern Art, where I became head of reference. IG: 34:30 Marvelous. PB: 34:31 And it was quite an amazing job. I got to meet all kinds of wonderful people. I partied with Andy Warhol. I had- IG: 34:40 Tell us about that. PB: 34:41 Oh, well, that would be, that was a good joke I would tell my students about because we were both drunk at a at a reception, and- IG: 34:49 Where was the reception? PB: 34:50 I was working at MOMA. MoMA was the child of the Rockefellers, who were the trustees, and they also, of course, Rockefeller Center. They had redone all of. Restaurants. This is back in (19)84, I believe. And yeah, it is (19)84 or so, and they had redone all the restaurants around the skating rink in Manhattan. They had the statue and all that. So, they closed the area off and they did a large reception. I saw Donald Trump there with his first wife, and all I could think of was she has five inches of makeup on. IG: 35:22 She has what? PB: 35:23 Five inches of makeup on. But it was one of those looks (19)80s parties you hear about. And they had stations where you could go get your sirloin burger, your pate this and that. They had open wine and liquor bars. So I was with all the librarians, you know, all the library people at MoMA. We were sitting together big table across from Keith Haring, who stuck his foot out and let me trip over it, and then laughed outrageously. That was Keith. And so, this is a really good story. This is the really and I think Binghamton was at the root of my being able to take all this very well. So, I- we drank liberally. I was a young woman at this time. I was really young. I was 24 when I got my second master's in Columbia. So, I had started college age 16. So, I had, I did all my training together in this, you know, seven, eight-year period, and-and then had it. So, we all been drinking very nicely, and my seat mates came back to me said, "Oh, Paula, there is a chocolate mousse station down there." And they describe where it is. "Oh," I said, three sheets to the wind, or whatever you call I want. I want chocolate mousse. So, I jumped up in the table, and I run over there, and I find out there is a big line, and at the end of the line there is this very handsome man. mind you, I am drunk, and he is wearing a gray bespoke suit, a beautiful lavender necktie. He has snow white hair, and it is tied back like a 19th century man with a velvet ribbon in the back, and he smells of some fantastic cologne. So, I go running up to him, and I say, "Oh, I love chocolate mousse, do not you" And he looks at me, and he sees me, and he smiles his beatific smile. And I said, “What a handsome guy, I am going to flirt with him.” And we start having this amazing, stupid, superficial conversation about chocolate mousse and chocolate mousses we have loved, and chocolate mousses we would like. And we had to wait about 10, 15 minutes on the line, or maybe, I know it was around 10 minutes, and then he was ahead of me in line, so they fixed his plate, but like a gentleman, he stayed with me, and then he helped advise me, because he had, like, white chocolate mousse, and this, I mean, this is the Lux 80s. You would never get that now. And-and help me fill my plate, and then, and I am chatting away at him, and he is chatting back at me, and then we get ready to part, and he is sitting in different areas, so we are standing and we are talking to each other like we are kind of like enamored of each other. And I said, “That was a wonderful talk we had. Thank you very much.” And he looks at me. He says, “I had a great time. Thank you.” So, he walks away. So here is the best part. Here are all my librarian friends. They are jumping up and down on their tables, on the chairs, because they are drunk too, screaming. They look just like the monkeys in 2001 with the monolith. "Paula. Paula. Paula. That was Andy Warhol." And I said, "That was Andy." And they said, "Yeah, what the hell were you doing with him?" It looked like he was going to pick you up and take you for a date. Well. I said, "Well, that would not be bloody likely, but I did not know it was him." And then I told the story to one of my students in college years later, and one of my little students said, she said, "You know what I think happened? He loved that you did not recognize him, and he probably did not get that that much." And then I just talked to him like he was a human, like he was another guy, and I was flirting with him and everything. Later on, I had to teach Warhol in college, because I taught this creative mind course I read, and it turned out he had a famous quote, I am a very superficial person, and it was part of his whole, you know, raise on debt and all that. And I realized that that interlude, my 15 minutes of fame with him, or 10 or whatever, because he is the one that made that quote. You know, we probably were having a wonderful time. Because if I know who he was, I would have changed my behavior immediately and been whatever. And he had the joy of a young woman who did not know he was gay and did not know he was who he was, and just true human beings having fun at a party. And I met some other great people too. So, MoMA was wonderful, but I was very ambitious. Ancient Chinese curse, you sometimes will get what you want. So, I applied for the curatorship of the Art and Architecture Department at New York Public Library. I did not do research, number one mistake, but I knew that that was one of the premier positions, and I was very ambitious, and I had competition that took six months to hire, and then I was hired, and I stayed there for 22 years. But it was a terrible place, a terrible, terrible workplace, terrible. IG: 40:35 Why? PB: 40:36 Because there was no appreciation of the employees and no trust, no appreciation. For example, I curated exhibitions, but I was not allowed to talk to the President of the of NYPL. Did not want staff talking to trustees. I- my boss and I had to give a little show and tell to Oscar de la Renta, his wife, Annette and Bill Blass. They love me. Bill Blass started up a friendship with me. He wanted to do stuff. I had to actually go to the director of the NYPL and tell him that Bill Blass was talking to me directly. And he put an end to that at once, it was terrible. IG: 41:21 How terrible. PB: 41:22 One time, if you know about development- IG: 41:24 Who instituted those rules? PB: 41:27 I do not know, but that was a culture, that was a culture. And I came in. At- IG: 41:32 Do you think that that has changed? PB: 41:34 I think it has gotten worse. IG: 41:36 You think that it is- but Tony Marks was president. PB: 41:40 And at, yeah, he was at, oh, God, what is it? I have a friend of mine works, worked there for him. IG: 41:47 But no longer. PB: 41:48 Yeah, Amherst College. Was Amherst, or was it the other one. IG: 41:52 Who was the president at the time? PB: 41:54 Well, I had several, actually, I do not even mean president, I mean director of the library. I see Bill Walker, and he was not a good person. Oh, I am seeing this librarianship, so, all right, I am getting a little too free here. All right, make sure you delete that and, you know, just leave it vague like that. It was not a good place to work. And one example of that is that they brought in new management around 2004 and the word got out, but then they took so long, because they were using lawyers, they were going McKinsey Company had come and done a survey. They blamed upper management. They found out, right? Who was responsible? Well, you know, upper management is not going to take the fall. So, they decided that all the middle managers who were over 40 would be gotten rid of. And that was me, along with some brilliant people. I had just done an exhibition there. Oh, and they made a gag order. We were not allowed to talk for three years about being turned down. And one of their motives where we were in the New York State Pension, and the ones who had been there who were over 55 and were in tier one, they cost them a fortune. I was in tier four, though, and which was the least one. But they just came and they just cleaned house. They tossed one of the beloved curators, who was considered to be the best map librarian in the country, out while she was still doing an exhibition, I had just done an exhibition that broke attendance records and had gotten raves in the New York Times, in New Yorker magazine, and they decided- IG: 43:37 These articles, do these articles mention you? PB: 43:40 Yes. Oh, not always. IG: 43:44 Not always. PB: 43:44 The New York Times is funny about not necessarily mentioning curators and things like that. Although I did get mentioned in the early exhibitions later on, I might have- IG: 43:56 What was the name of the exhibition that you were- PB: 43:59 I have the poster in the home. It is called Art Deco design, rhythm and verve. That was the attendance breaking one, but it did not matter, and I knew the collection. I had a master's. I had been there 22 years and but they had brought in a manager, and he was actually a colleague, friend of mine, and they decided they would not have two non-union managers, so I was the one to go, and he had just come in a few years ago. Previously- IG: 44:36 When did that happen? PB: 44:37 2002 because I was going out for brain surgery. I had a brain tumor. I am a brain tumor survivor, and we did not know if I was going to make it, but that is not why they hired him. They did not even know all this was coming down until I let them know, and he came on board like the week before I went for my surgery. IG: 44:58 Okay, so that-that is really a life changing event, PB: 45:02 Yes, and- IG: 45:03 You survived. PB: 45:04 Yeah. IG: 45:05 How did that change your life? PB: 45:06 Well, I began to see I began too again. Maybe we can even think my critical thinking skills were good from my early 20s on, I knew a lot of us stayed there. I was very highly paid. I was one of the highest paid art librarians in the country, which is what I wanted. But that made me a target. I had a big target on my back. [crosstalk] Yes, they did not care. I mean, the people that they let go, they let go of the curator in the Slavic division, the curator- IG: 45:38 I know, I know- PB: 45:40 [crosstalk] They let John Lundquist. They let go of Alice Hudson, everybody who was over 40. And mind you, they were not necessarily as well-well paid as me, because they have been there longer. I came in and I had- IG: 45:53 What was, what was their what was the premise? I mean, what was, what was their explanation for doing away. For example- PB: 46:02 They were going, they wanted to integrate. It was going to be one library they did away with the research libraries. They had started a remote storage facility at Princeton that they did in Tandem with Princeton and Columbia put your books into stories, you probably had a 60 percent chance of never seeing them again. It all went black. It went black. IG: 46:31 It was such a- PB: 46:32 And I had a gag, I had a gag order on me. For me, they had to be careful, because Alice and John and Ed. They were, they were older than me, 10 years older than me. I was just in my mid 50s at that time, I came in as a tier four, the bottom tier, and they really did not have a reason. And if they had been asked, why did you take the one with all the experience and credentials over the one that is just come in as a library manager, they would not have a leg to stand on. So, this is what they did, which was illegal, but believe me, they had all their lawyers on it. They knew I would turn 55 in October, 2009 so they kept me on for a year. They let me know in July, 2008 that I was out, my position was eliminated. That is how they got around it legally. My position as curator, they retired. Almost all except for a couple curator positions just eliminated them. That was a legal thing that they did to protect themselves and with me they came. They said, “This is totally illegal by New York State law.” Why am I doing this as a recording here? Well, I do not mind. I am past the date now. They told me, “Oh, Paula, you are going to be 55 next September.” Illegal-illegal-illegal. Why do not we have you retire then, and we will give you health benefits for life, for right up through Medicare, and even help you with which is what they did with retirees. But they did not have to give them to me, and they did not give them to a lot of other people who they laid off. They laid off 65 people at the time I was let go, and 64 of them were called into the auditorium and told you have 10 days to pack up and leave. I was the 65th but they waited on me. The director had me in his office, and I come in, and I knew I am in trouble because the labor relations guy is there, and he said, coldly to me, I am the one that had done all these things. Got articles in New York Times and that, as did all my colleagues. And he said, “Things are changing here at New York Public Library, we no longer have any need of your experience or services.” And it was mean as could be Now, there are ways to handle it. And this guy, who is now head of the National Archives, by the way, you know, was very mean to me. I guess he was told he had to be that way. I am sure he did not enjoy it, but he enjoyed his very lux salary as director. I think he was brought in. We all agree, he was brought in as a henchman, and there was a reward waiting for him down the line, which there was, and he, you know, there is so many ways to tell somebody they are not wanted anymore. He could have done it and still got rid of me and said, “You know, this is great, but we are changing to more stem version, and we are going to downplay our liberal art.” He just basically made me feel like a creep. And then when I am like, really creep, and I am thinking, gee, maybe I have a lawsuit here, and they were terribly afraid of that, he said, “But you know what, we are going to keep you. You are still a year away from being 55 we are going to keep you for a year, and we are going to second you.” He did not use second. I mean, using that term to the Education Department, where you will work till next year, and maybe you can stay on and but at least when you get retired, you will be 55 and you will be in the state pension system, and you can get a pension. Well, first of all, illegally. That is illegal-illegal-illegal. You do not talk to an employee about their age. And yet, they did, I and they did it, you know, and I think that they were measuring lawsuit versus, you know, the carrot to get someone who had had a brain tumor and had to get checked every few years and take an MRI, and I also had both my knees replaced in 2006 and then had radiation because the tumor grew again. They knew I needed health benefits, so that was my bribery, and I went for it. And as soon as I was retired, nobody in the New York area would touch me because I was retired, so I am desperate, and so I decided to write books again, and I taught a little course back at Purchase and continuing ed and on the next to second, last second to last night of the course I was teaching, one of my students raised her hand, said, "My husband's a dean at Berkeley College. They are looking for someone to teach art history and critical thinking. Can I recommend you?” They hired me like a flash. IG: 51:29 That is wonderful. PB: 51:31 And I worked for them for nearly eight years. But Binghamton, I am in you know, I think Binghamton-Binghamton opened my eyes to the world, but also taught me what intellectual integrity was, and about hard work and about various things. I have another story for you, which will tell you about the upstate downstate I worked various jobs and jobs I worked most often when I was an undergraduate, because I had school, but I needed that money. I had no spending money. I worked as a night guard in the dorms because I was a night owl. But one summer when I was not taking many courses, they hired me in the cafeteria of the Student Union, and I like it was my second day there, and they said, “You know what, we are going to put you on the cash register?” Well, it turned out to be a call celeb, and all of Binghamton was talking about it, because they had never, ever put a student, an undergraduate student, on the cash register, because they figured, or, steal, and I was in nine days wonder, I think the radio station had a big thing about it, pipe dream had a little article about it. People would come up to me and say, they put you on the cash register. And I Yeah, but they-they knew they talked to me and I talked upstate. They knew where I came from. They even knew part of my family through Cooperstown and stuff like that. And so, I always thought that that was a marvelous statement about Binghamton. And this is (19)74, (19)70 sometimes (19)74 or late (19)73 and this was the upstate downstate divide, because all of us were firmly agreed, and they would not say anything in the cafeteria. But I knew it was true that because I was an upstate girl, they could trust me on the cash register. IG: 53:29 That is a great story. We are running out of time. PB: 53:34 I knew it. IG: 53:34 And so, I usually conclude these interviews by asking, what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? And you said “Intellectual integrity and a rigor.” PB: 53:48 Being able to work hard. I was not able to write five books without being very disciplined. I had to make decisions like, I am not watching television, I am writing. I cannot write books if I watch television. And I think that some of the arrogance of my professors in that program, you know, that we are the best, and this and that rubbed off on me, because I wanted to go to the best college for librarianship when I decided to be a professional librarian, art librarian. And I also think that Binghamton took a sheltered little girl from a very white bread, you know, not diverse community, grew up that way, and exposed her to lots of different students, lots of different situations. Socially, I did well. Romance wise, I went from being a little girl who did not go to the prom to, you know, popular, and I became a person. But all my critical thinking, because I was very informed when I came to Binghamton, developed there, and I had to learn to grow up fast. There were things that we do not need to talk about Binghamton, that you learn to grow up fast. Asked about and you had to have faith in your faculty. And I certainly did. And I, you know, I did two master's degrees willy nilly, and got by them quite well, straight out of there. And to this day, because I still intellectually, you know, I was hurt by the NYPL experience deeply hurt, and probably will be, you know, Barry says, you know, remember, that is past old news and all that, but writing all those books and doing all that was my way, and I have a lot of published articles- IG: 55:36 Books, please tell our audience are on- PB: 55:39 Native American jewelry. I am an expert in that area, particularly Southwestern Navajo and Pueblo jewelry, because the Southwest is the marketplace for all Native American jewelry. Jewelers from South America, Central America and Canada, come to the southwest to sell their jewelry. IG: 56:02 And just tell us how many books you have written and some of the titles. And- PB: 56:07 The first book I wrote was a tribute to my library background. I wrote the Encyclopedia of Native American Jewelry. It is the first and only such encyclopedia of its kind. NYPL keeps it in their main reading room still, which is a source of pride to me that I have a book in the main reading room at NYPL at 42nd street. I then went on to write four more books. My magnum opus is a two-volume definitive 150 years of Navajo Pueblo jewelry design, 1870 to 2020, it is an expansion of my first full book, southwestern silver jewelry. And I have is going to be combination reference book, picture book. It will be the resource in the field jewelry, because and has often got short hand. You know, short treatment in academia and other areas, because it is decorative arts or whatever, and Native American art in general has not always had a literature that serves it well. A lot of people wrote were enthusiasts or collectors, and not necessarily academics. So, I am able to write in an academic but accessible, shall we say, accessible, scholarly man- manner, thanks to my education and my training as a professional. IG: 57:33 Thank you so much. It has been a delightful interview, an extremely interesting life story. PB: 57:41 I think Barry would be angry that I talked about the NYPL. But since this is a library and it is a center, and you know, they did us wrong, I do not mind being on record with this, they cannot do anything to me. Statute of limitations is long over, and you know, if you are going to be a librarian, you need to be alert. I saw many red flags in my time there. And, yeah, this is not being required. IG: 58:10 All right. Thank you very, very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paula A. Baxter Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Baxter, Paula A. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Paula Baxter.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:14 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/008f61d49e0ca729173249242f843919.mp3 5d5d4cad0668732fca392595bf404467 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5228d1eb94e14f64f22d69ad8aa588db.jpg c9d63360b96fec76a9140d39f18badf5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-04-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip Nachman Year of Graduation 1973 Biographical Text Philip is owner of his Watertown, Mass.-based business, Nachman BioMedical, Medical Industry Exec Search, a recruiting firm for selling medical devices. At Harpur College, Philip created his own major in American studies, which included a class in Jewish-American literature. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Philip Nachman Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 4 April 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) PN: 00:04 My name is Philip Nachman. We are having this interview in my home in Watertown, Massachusetts. IG: 00:09 When did you go to- PN: 00:12 I was a student in Binghamton from the fall of (19)70 through the spring of (19)73. IG: 00:18 Okay, and how old are you? PN: 00:21 How old was I at the time? IG: 00:22 No-no. PN: 00:22 Yeah, I am 67 years old. IG: 00:24 Okay, all right, so, Philip, where did you grow up? PN: 00:28 I grew up in Troy, New York. IG: 00:31 Oh, in Troy. And who were your parents? What did they do? Where were they from? PN: 00:36 Sure-sure. Well, my father, Burton Nachman, grew up in Schenectady, a town next to Troy, and married my mother, who was from Troy, which is like 15 miles away, and he married into a family business of my mother's family, which was men's clothing store that had been there since like 1905 that her father and uncles started at that era. So, from your from- both of them have gone to college. So, I am not the first generation in college. I have an older brother, four years older, also went to college, went to Ithaca College. So very much rooted in upstate New York. Very much rooted historically in upstate New York. Yeah. IG: 01:19 So, they expect- what was the expectation of you that you would go on to college or, PN: 01:26 Oh yeah, yes [laughs] IG: 01:28 Yes. Okay, so education was valued in your family, absolutely. PN: 01:33 Yeah. It was throughout, yeah. IG: 01:36 So, what were your reasons for going to Harpur? PN: 01:39 Well, I had spent my first two years at another school at Hofstra University on Long Island, and I did not like it, basically, so I wanted to transfer. And was casting about as to where to transfer to. I frankly, do not remember why I knew of Binghamton, but accepted me, so I went. So, I transferred in as a junior. IG: 02:00 Right. But it must have had some reputation, a good reputation- PN: 02:05 I am sure it did, yeah, uh- IG: 02:07 -inclined to transfer there rather than some other school. PN: 02:11 I honestly do not recall where else I may have applied just; I am not sure. I do not know that it necessarily was I needed financially to go to a public university, although I am sure it helped. So, I probably wanted a liberal arts school. I was not focused on engineering or the hard sciences in Binghamton, while they had had and have that also was really known as a liberal arts school. And from a practical standpoint, at that era, the school was attempting to increase its upper-upper division students, meaning juniors and seniors. Therefore, they were making it attractive for people to go there in terms of admissions, not that there was housing for these students. There was not. So, I probably knew someone who had gone there something like that, but I do not, I do not recall exactly. IG: 03:05 Right. And housing, you said so, but- PN: 03:09 There were not enough dorms. IG: 03:11 There were not enough dorms. PN: 03:12 So- IG: 03:12 Where did you end up? PN: 03:14 Well, I had a cousin, who actually cousin a year older, who was going to Binghamton. Maybe that is why I knew about the place, and I crashed in his room, I think, on his floor, while I looked for an apartment. And in those days, there was no Craigslist, there was a bulletin board. So, I went to the student housing office, looked at the bulletin board. Someone standing next to me was looking at the bulletin board. They were looking for a place. So, we apparently, yeah, we found a place together. Did not know the person from Adam worked out fine, some apartment in Vestal. And uh- IG: 03:47 You found a place in Vestal? PN: 03:48 Yeah, I think, I think the first place I lived was-was in Vestal, on Reno Boulevard. IG: 03:55 Did you have a car? Or did you [inaudible] PN: 03:58 I think, I think, yeah, I believe I did have a car. Yeah, I did. IG: 04:03 So, what was your first experience of Harpur College? What did it seem like to you after Hofstra? PN: 04:14 Very different in terms of the geography. Hofstra was built on a former airstrip, ugly ascent [crosstalk] you know the place. All right, 14 story concrete towers were from the era of concrete is great. Let us use more of it. Kind of ugly. So, I in terms of the geography, let us say literally, and sort of the socio-economic world. Because of having grown up in an old, sort of semi run down industrial town, I sort of got it right away, as opposed to Long Island, which was really one big suburb of New York. And even though I grew up in upstate New York, I was not that familiar necessarily with New York. City or its environs. So, I sort of understood, literally and figuratively, the landscape, the sort of social landscape of the town, not so much the school, but of the town. So, I liked that. I think there was probably a lot of construction and a lot of mud. Everyone wore, all the students were sort of hiking boots, or construction boots and flannel shirts. That was the that was the uniform in those days. Part of it is that was the fashion. But it turned out to be worthwhile because it was a big mud pit. There was a lot of construction. IG: 05:43 It still is. PN: 05:44 It still is a lot of construction, yeah, I see from the alumni news magazine and all of that. So, plenty of long-haired hippies, plenty of drug, sex and rock and roll, which is probably true of almost everywhere other than maybe West Point. Yeah. So yeah, it was sort of a, yeah, a normal liberal state university anywhere in the northeast, frankly, or elsewhere. IG: 06:07 But did you find it to be stronger what we were strong, not stronger, but strong in the in the humanities and the liberal arts? IG: 06:17 So, who did you read? PN: 06:17 Yeah. I mean, I gravitated toward, American history, sociology, anthropology, those areas, and at that time at least, you could petition some academic board to create your own major. You would need to get an academic advisor. So, I created a major in American Studies, which was not a major at that time. It may be now, and other schools have it, but it was not a particularly well-known thing in those days. But that way, I could mix my interests, and there were plenty of courses for me to take, which I enjoyed, and I actually one professor who I believe is still alive in his 90s. Taught, among other things, Jewish American literature, which I Sheldon Grebstein, he later became a president, I think of SUNY, SUNY, New Paltz, I think, or something like that. And that really had an effect on me. That was interesting to me. PN: 06:37 Saul Bellow, Roth, those authors that were current at the time, Jewish American authors, right, (19)50s and (19)60s, basically. PN: 07:26 You read Herzog. IG: 07:28 Herzog. Yep. IG: 07:29 What did you read of- PN: 07:31 Which- IG: 07:32 -of Roth. PN: 07:33 Roth. PN: 07:34 Well, there were two Roths. Call it Sleep, Henry Roth. IG: 07:34 Yes. IG: 07:38 Right-right. PN: 07:39 Not a lot of people, necessarily [crosstalk] IG: 07:41 I have not read it, but I know. PN: 07:43 Yeah, all right, yeah. So, whatever his Roth has since gone on to write many, many other books, but Bernard Malamud probably had more made more of an impression on me. The Empty Barrel [The Magic Barrel], or something like that the whole bunch of them. So, they were very interesting to me in terms of my own Jewish American identity, and in an odd way, that is I was more comfortable in Binghamton than on Long Island. I did not know. I sort of did not know what to do as almost the majority, I grew up in this town that was certainly like Binghamton. And I was much more comfortable in upstate New York, where the Jews were a minority. I sort of understood the social structure. I did not know about poor Jews, rich Jews, and everyone in between, which you would have in metropolitan New York, bazillion papers [crosstalk] I did not know about that. So, I just felt more comfortable somehow. And so those back to the courses. So, some American history courses. Just, I think there was a civil war course, just, I probably could find my transcript in the attic. IG: 09:04 I am curious about the-the- was it only American, Jewish writers, or were there- PN: 09:10 In that particular class was happens to be that subject. As far as other literature classes, I suspect I took one or two others. I do not remember, it did not, they did not have as much. IG: 09:26 I am very interested in how that shaped your identity. That that, you know, a course like that could have helped, you know, build, yeah, well, the person that you are. PN: 09:39 It certainly did. I mean, it was very ethnocentric, obviously, but in a strange, in an odd way, it was very American. It was the American experience of these characters. And it did not make me religious. I am not. But it certainly informed more my identity, I guess. And I am not-not digging as deeply as you would like, because I am not sure exactly how to tell you think about it, um, just, well some-some of those books had characters that were living through poverty and, you know, in the Lower East Side, let us say, and discrimination that I may not have directly felt. IG: 10:34 For example, which, which of the books do you remember? PN: 10:36 Well, certainly call it, call it sleep. A lot of poverty, grinding poverty, and abusive or maybe alcoholic father who left, and all these things I did not know from that stuff. So that was sort of interesting, because it gave me a range of types. And the Roth books, which, again, had, I do not remember as well. PN: 11:03 Philip Roth. PN: 11:04 Yeah-yeah. Philip Roth, sorry, yeah. We talked about Henry. Now, as far as Saul Bellow, his characters were sort of bigger than life. Augie March, I think, and not him bolt, something like that. This guy who was in Africa. He was got of his mind this bigger than life character. PN: 11:25 Was it Herzog? IG: 11:25 Herzog, well, I mean, he was also a bigger than life a long time ago. But is not he from, you know, I do not think that he was born in America? He might be an immigrant from Eastern Europe, PN: 11:39 Possibly. IG: 11:40 You know it, but I know that it, it, it is just kind of a deeply felt novel- IG: 11:50 -of the academic experience, you know, and the Jewish American- PN: 11:50 Yeah. PN: 11:56 Yeah, I do not know about well this guy, I am trying to maybe confuse him with another character, but he was a little bit off his rocker, and he was just this roaring presence. Maybe [inaudible] I do not remember, you know, when did I read it, 45 years ago. [laughs] IG: 12:14 You know, they obviously- PN: 12:16 Stuck. Yeah. So, yeah so all of that sort of informed what I knew of the Jewish American experience was, which was in the people I knew. And this might be true of Binghamton, if you were Jewish and you had gone to college, or even if not, you were either a lawyer, an accountant, a doctor or you owned a retail store that describes my family exactly, my father's cousins, my mother's siblings, where we had a store that was downtown, as in Binghamton. A lot of the retail stores were Jews whose parents were born in Europe, as my grandparents all were. And which brings me back to that is why I just sort of got Binghamton. Even if I did not go shopping, I did not need to sort of go shopping. But uh, so that is what I knew. I did not know about Jewish taxi drivers, Jewish cops, Jewish firemen. I later, in Boston, many years later, went out with someone whose father who was Jewish. Her father was a captain in the New York Fire Department. I did not know; I did not know there was a such thing. I mean, it was totally, really, well, and then the others who were not maybe as well off as my parents in the milieu I just described, were clerks in retail stores, or they were teachers. Not a lot of ditch diggers that I knew about. They may have been there, but I did not know about them, but they probably were not. I mean, that is just- IG: 13:49 And writers. I mean, you were reading the writers? PN: 13:51 Yes, right-right, yeah. And it turns out there are colleges in Troy, RBI and Russell Sage and in the next town Union, so it is sort of a college environment, some of those professors were Jewish, and I knew their kids because I went to elementary and high school with them and all of that. So that is just kind of the that is what I knew the Jewish world to be. Yes, although an uncle of mine was a milkman, somehow that did not compute, yeah, but, and then later, owned a trucking company, but he married my aunt, who was a lawyer, very, really rare. There were two people in our law school class, I mean, 1920 or something. So, all of that broadened my understanding of the Jewish community in America. Let us put it that way. Did not mean I pursued anything or ever, you know, religiously, right? But somehow it just informed my being. IG: 14:46 Right. PN: 14:52 Now the other courses, let me think about that. I mean, I was interested in the American history courses, whatever they were, you know, I just thing- I am thinking about too. One was the Civil War class written taught by a very interesting young radical who later committed suicide. It was the strangest thing. Robert Starobin, you may know the name. He was this radical leftist historian of slavery, and I had him as a teacher, interesting young guy, and he later, well, I was not in his class anymore, but I was still at the university. He later killed himself. It was shocking and remarkable, and I did, actually, I have done a little bit of- IG: 15:38 It happened in your time? PN: 15:40 Yeah, it happened in my time. It was probably in 1971 possibly (19)72 and his father was a pretty well-known leftist academic right and even collaborated on. IG: 15:51 How did it impact you or your probably was the first encounter with suicide? PN: 15:56 Oh, yeah, [crosstalk] I knew it was baffling. I thought it was terrible loss. I thought it was because I may have borrowed someone's paper and cheated or something. I do not think it mattered that much to IG: 16:13 Yeah, but you personalize it. PN: 16:15 Yeah, I personalized it, you know, completely wrong. He had other, a lot other-other issues having nothing to do with me. But there was a funny scene with him, sort of fun. He grew up, I think, in Queens or something, so a city kid, and I think a friend of mine had locked his keys in his card, left them in the ignition, and I must have been so in the class, and I mentioned it to Starobin, and he said, "All right, here, let us see what we can do." He got a coat hanger. He went outside, he put the coat hanger, got the coat hanger in the car, like going sort of around, and threw the rubber gasket around the window, actually hooked the key that was in the ignition and pulled it out. IG: 16:56 Wow. Pretty slick. PN: 16:58 Pretty slick. That was very cool. IG: 17:02 You only knew how to pick locks as well. PN: 17:05 I do not know. IG: 17:06 That is very impressive. PN: 17:08 It was very impressive, right-right. And this professor who taught the Jewish American literature course described himself, and this is Sheldon Grebstein. There was a graduate. There was a TI in the class. He described himself. He was very self-aware as a middle brow intellectual. It was so interesting versus, I mean, basically the guy was sort of saying, I am not going to win the Nobel Prize. I am not teaching at Harvard. I did not go there. I know who I am. I am happy where I am teaching, etc., etc., and it was just so interesting to see someone that this is who I am. He was a very interesting and a good teacher. Was a great teacher. And he and I think his thesis was on some other American literature having nothing to do with Jewish I mean, basically that was an interest of his, among others. And I Googled him recently, and I to see if he was still alive. He might be. I had called him about two years ago to thank him for an interesting course 45 years. I left a message. I never got a call back, and I Googled him the other day. If he is alive, he is 92 so. IG: 18:18 92 he can be still quite active. I knew, I know. PN: 18:21 He could be, yeah. IG: 18:21 Yeah, he could be. PN: 18:24 So, I so getting back to the school have any effect, yeah. I mean, I am remembering these things with fondness. And academically, I was no academic star. I was not trying to get into law school. I was not killing myself. I was sort of a lost liberal arts graduate. I do not know what the hell I was doing. Many people did not, IG: 18:52 Yeah, many people did not. PN: 18:55 Yeah. I mean, you know, people who knew they wanted to be an engineer, in a way, it was easier. First of all, the curriculum is quite set. Secondly, they were really focused on it. It was really quite concrete. You either got it you got the problem, right or wrong. [laughs] IG: 19:14 Yeah, itis a different, very different. It is a very different career trajectory. When you know from the outset. IG: 19:21 Well, that is a trajectory. PN: 19:23 I did not have a trajectory. IG: 19:25 You know- so how did you fall into the career that you have now? What-what exactly do you do? PN: 19:33 Well, I am- I have my own business as a recruiter, headhunter, executive search consultant specifically for the medical device business and some pharmaceutical--Boston happens to be a center for that. I got into that because probably not so much when I was an undergraduate. But later on, I decided I wanted to save the world. So modest-modest role. IG: 20:00 Yeah [laughs] yeah. PN: 20:00 So, I wound up studying public health, because if you save the world, want to do it have a big impact. IG: 20:09 Yeah. PN: 20:09 Wholesale. IG: 20:10 Where did you study public health? PN: 20:12 The University of Florida, public health and health education, and, more specifically, gerontology. A number of years after I got out of undergrad. So, to me, that was a way to save the bigger swath. So, I wound up, I pursued that and worked at a hospital having to do with public health and training of hospital staff and issues of Geriatric mental health. I did that for number of years, maybe four or five, and then wound up getting a job for a medical device company that had a product that had to do with, specifically with the elderly, to enable them to stay home longer and not go to a nursing home, if, if they were- IG: 20:56 What is a product? PN: 20:57 It is called lifeline. It was like a beeper system for- get people help. The point of that was for me, having studied gerontology and having worked in a community health center where I was going out to nursing homes to do training of staff, there are people in nursing homes, or at least there were then, who are not there for skilled care. They are there almost for it is just a safer environment, and they give up a lot of autonomy, but they are afraid they or their children, are afraid they are going to be home alone and fall and they will be discovered a week later by the mailman. So, this was an F this machine, which was invented by a psychologist, gerontologist in Boston was-was to enable people like that or did not need skilled care to stay at home with some security, that if they had a problem, they could get help. And there was even a timer, if they did not reset it every day, it would automatically get them help. Very clever product. So, I said, “Wow,” that is for me. I was not interested in capitalism. I was not interested in machines, but I thought this thing was great. So, I wound up getting a job at that company. Took me some lobbying and sometime right as a field service engineer, which is kind of funny, because I am no engineer, but a big part of it was training. PN: 22:18 What does a field service [crosstalk] PN: 22:20 Field service engineer is someone who fixes hospital equipment, either in a hospital or in a field, as the title might sort of imply, and does some training on how to use it. Well, I was the training director at a hospital, I know, and I was that was something I was good at and liked the stage, you know. So, it was a relatively simple device, and I could be trained to install it and to fix it and to teach people how to install it and all that. And I was great at it. But a bigger part of it, and probably a bigger part of my success in that, was understanding sort of the milieu in which it would go, and liking the training part and being comfortable in and around hospitals, because I had worked in one, so I-I wanted to do something at that company, and frankly, I did not care what that was the job that was open. So, he hired me, and it was great, great experience. And then I was promoted, and I became a salesperson for that company and trained a field service engineer under me. This goes back to 1984, (19)81. God, (19)81 and I am still in touch with people I worked with. Startups are like that. There is a cause, you know, spread, of course, especially if you think the product has real value, you know, social value. So- IG: 23:42 What do you think that you know this belief in the product lent to your contributed to your success in sales? PN: 23:53 Oh, sure, I could not have just sold anything. I would not have cared about just anything. So, it-it related to the Gerontology stuff. It related to saving the world, even if it was only an elderly piece of it, uh- IG: 24:06 Which is a huge piece nowadays. PN: 24:08 Oh, yeah. So that worked out well. And then that later, to answer your earlier question, how did I get to do what I do now for a living? IG: 24:17 Yes. PN: 24:17 So, I worked for that company for three and a half, four years, quite successful at it, but I got bored with it. Single Product, same story every time. If there were technical problems, the same technical problems, right? At that point, I had already moved from Boston to Florida because of a promotion within the company. And I kind of missed living here, excuse me, so I happened to see an ad in the Boston paper when I was living in Florida, I was here for a meeting looking for a medical sales person, and I went for an interview at a recruiting place. And it turned out the actually the job was there. It was sort of false advertising. They wanted to expand the recruit efforts in the medical area. And they wanted someone who had been doing medical sales. So, I interviewed at this place, and then the guy came clean and said, actually, the job is here. I said, “What do you mean?” And it was almost like a Costello act or something, l IG: 25:17 A little bit false advertising. PN: 25:18 Yeah. I mean, in terms, in a way, it was medical sales. At any rate, I wound up working there. It was great. I moved back here. I had a wonderful mentor, a very generous guy who knew a lot about medical devices and medical stuff. He had gone to medical school for a year and had an MBA and decided I want to be a doctor. And wound up in that business, and great guy and I wound up working at this other company for three, four years, maybe five, and then I went off on my own doing the same thing. And that is 30 years ago. So, I have been doing this a long time, but it all. None of it was planned, believe me, however, these steps relate to one another. Even if there was no map, there certainly was no map. It had nothing to do with SUNY Binghamton. I can guarantee you, it probably had more to do with graduate school, where I was studying health related, IG: 26:13 Right, of course, of course. PN: 26:17 So that is how I got to do what I do. And I am not retired. I still do it, and that is- IG: 26:25 How did you trust your instincts? You know you said that you kind of none of it was planned, but everything was related. So how did you trust that your decision making in your career- PN: 26:42 Blind? IG: 26:43 -blind trust, or just you have a certain comfort for taking risks. PN: 26:48 Yeah, at that time, I certainly left a very good job at this lifeline system with base salary and bonuses and a company car, and took a job where I had to pay for myself to move with no salary, no benefits, no nothing. I do not know if it was out of my mind, but I could afford to do it. I was single. I could take a risk. I may not have even realized the risk. It worked out. It worked out fine. Not everyone can do that. A lot of people need to know that they have a weekly paycheck, I am just willing to live with it. IG: 27:26 Well, you know, for-for a somebody who is considering becoming an entrepreneur, as you, you have been for the last 30 years, what are some of the important qualities and things that you need to consider? You know, from your experience, that are most valuable for this. You said that you know you have to be comfortable without you know, having you know, an expected paycheck, or regular paycheck, regular benefits. I mean, what are some of the but what are some of the personal qualities that you think well, are needed? PN: 28:12 You have to be- have some self confidence that you can do it. So, if you are an electrical engineer, you have to be pretty sure that you are a creative electrical engineer. If you are your standard electrical engineer, you are not going to become a salesman, and vice versa. So, it has to be in a milieu in which you have already had some success. So, in the training milieu, when I was working at that hospital, and then in the sales milieu, when I worked for lifeline, and earlier in the field service and customer training milieu, I was successful. Having grown up in a retail business, which I mentioned earlier, starting in high school, I would work like summer or Christmas season or something, selling clothing, so the personal aspects of relating to people and presenting a product or a service, and explaining it, selling it, looking at why it might be valuable, it might not for someone, and if some and I will probably part of why I am successful at what I do is what I currently do. If the job is not right for someone, I will say, "You know what, this may not be the best thing for you." And taking a longer view of what-what works for people, and hopefully that honesty comes back to help you and not haunt you. IG: 29:34 How do you recruit people? Do you look on LinkedIn, or do people come to you? Or what happens. PN: 29:40 Keep going, all of the above. IG: 29:42 All of the above. A recruiter, PN: 29:45 Social media- IG: 29:46 Social media. Connections. PN: 29:47 [crosstalk] Forever, yeah, a lot, a lot of connections. In fact, I am going to a meeting this evening of a medical devices group, which is mostly engineers, and there will be a speaker talk. Talking about the latest whiz bang technology and why it works, why it does not discover about it. So being out and about and staying interested in current in the industry in which I am. IG: 30:11 I understood. PN: 30:11 So, if you are back to an entrepreneur, I am not sure in the world, because I have not started a company, I am the sole employee. I did not need to go to bankers to get investment money or venture capitalism, none of that. But, you know, not everyone could do it as I forget and you just reminded me, part of it is make sure if you have a good year, you do not spend like you had a good year, because if you have a bad year, you may need a nest egg and do not spend like a drunken sailor. IG: 30:48 Yeah, that is good advice [laughs] for anyone. So-so you know this is your career path, and you mentioned that you have a daughter, and tell us, you know, a little bit about your family. PN: 31:09 I got married late in my late to mid-40s, first time, and my wife and I, within a year, had a kid, which was almost surprising. We are both old, biological standpoint, my daughter's 19. She is a sophomore, and following the family tradition, she also transferred schools. She started out at Bryn Mawr, spent a year for a variety of reasons. It was not a great fit, took a semester off, and now is quite local at Brandeis, and is studying public health. Was so interesting to me things that were interesting to me in college. And she is interested in Planned Parenthood and women's sociology, women's health care, that kind of thing. And it happens to be really the right place for it. It is a very strong program. There is social policy, health policy and all that. So, I have got this 19-year-old daughter, my wife also had transferred from one college, to another [Irene laughs] and they are the two of them are right now in New York, going to Broadway shows. [crosstalk] Yeah. IG: 32:25 Do you- what are some of your- have you kept up with your interest in literature? Have you- PN: 32:31 Yeah-yeah to [crosstalk] some degree IG: 32:33 [inaudible] hobbies- PN: 32:35 As far as reading--I am a bigger newspaper reader than the book reader. Although I am in actually right now, for the first time, I am in two book clubs. My wife and I are in a book club together, and then the local library has a quote guys book club, and that is been great. I love it. [inaudible] I know, yeah, we might be 15, 10, to 15 people. IG: 32:59 That is quite a number. PN: 33:01 Maybe, yeah. And depending on the book, more people come and the librarian is a guy, which is also somewhat rare, I think. IG: 33:08 Yeah. PN: 33:10 It is a neighboring town, Errington, and it is great. I do not know these people outside of the group, but we all really enjoy it. There is a man do not have a lot of these outlets. I am not a sports guy. I do not go to a bar and watch a football game. I pay not to, in fact. So that is a social outlet. I do not care about this bonding about sports. So, this is great. That is a variety of books. There are librarians who find it interesting. IG: 33:41 Yes, what are some of the books that you have [crosstalk] PN: 33:44 It is a range. Some of them are we just read the memoir of South African comedian- IG: 33:56 Coitzi. Coitzi? PN: 33:58 No, he is on American TV. Oh, I love the guy. It will come back to me. I forgot. IG: 34:04 Yeah. PN: 34:05 Scary. [laughs] IG: 34:08 It will not come back in five minutes. PN: 34:09 Trevor Noah. IG: 34:10 Oh, I see that is right. Oh, yes, really, course. PN: 34:13 You have not read it. IG: 34:13 Yeah. PN: 34:14 Listen to it on books on tape. IG: 34:15 I have seen him on TV. PN: 34:16 It is wonderful to listen to. IG: 34:18 Yeah. PN: 34:18 More than even read because he is- does the reading. IG: 34:21 He does the reading as well. I actually, I love books on tape. PN: 34:24 This is, this is a great one so that we have occasional military history, although that is not a focus. Novels, just a range of things, one-one book. One of the best books was a book called The Boys in the Boat. Which Have you heard of that huge bestseller about the sport of rowing crew, but it is historical, because it talks about the 1936 Olympics in Germany? IG: 34:54 Yes, of course. PN: 34:55 So that was very interesting book. Terrific book. And I suggested a book. It was sort of my turn to suggest a book, I think, for July, called the Fish that Ate the Whale, about the- this immigrant who started pedaling bananas, and that was enabled because of telegraph its whole story wound up from buying essentially damaged goods bananas that were discounted because they were about to be too ripe, wound up as the president of United Fruit Company, which owned half of Central America. Very interesting story. Yeah, fascinating. So that is one I suggested. It will be in a couple of months. And then the one we Thursday, I guess that is tomorrow. Is the book club, and it is a book. It is upstairs, hopefully, I better all go up and get it, so just a variety of books. And that is- that is been- IG: 35:55 That is wonderful because, that is wonderful because not I think it is not, not everyone really gives time to reading. Not everybody gives time into- do you think that you know there, that you know this love of literature, clearly, you have a love and interest? Do you think that there is any connection between the literature- PN: 36:22 Come to think of it, those are the classes I remember. IG: 36:25 Yes-yes. PN: 36:26 Absolutely. In fact, if this guy had answered the phone, I was going to tell him that this retired professor become a college president. And my wife is an influence on me and my daughter too. They are speed readers. They read an enormous amount. I have never seen anything like it. My parents were readers, so it was not- IG: 36:43 It is part of your family. PN: 36:45 It is part of it. My father was a big reader, and in the newspapers which my wife does not read, so she reads more books I am interested in. I read three papers. The newspapers are practically going out of business, except for people like me, which is bad, because I am not young, you know, and they are the only thing that keeps the government honest at this point, you know, with investigative journalism. IG: 37:10 Yeah, I agree. I agree. And so-so, you know- PN: 37:17 I am going to run and get- IG: 37:20 So, we are back to talking with Philip Nachman, and we are going to talk a little bit about the political climate, the political issues that were predominant in your college experience. PN: 37:37 The Vietnam War was key, and it was raging still. Uh, in my case, I was in the first cohort of people who were, quote, eligible for the draft lottery, which was a somewhat more fair way of drafting people. And I had the distinction of being number five in the draft lottery. You do not want to be five, you want to be 360 so while I was in your while I was in Binghamton, I was called up for physical because I had such a low number, and I had to take the bus to Syracuse, where there was an Army induction center. I thought I thought I would get out for some physical reasons, but a lot of other people on that trip were, I am sure, sick with anxiety. So, I went to the physical, took the Greyhound, and I wound up getting what is called a 4f of physical deferment. So, I did not have to go, but I was considering my options. I was not interested in being shot at by the Vietnamese or shooting them, because, frankly, I did not care about them. They did not do nothing to me. I did not need to do nothing to them, right? But the times were roiling with Vietnam protests. Certainly, I am not sure how much on the campus. I kind of do not remember that, but it was, you know, complete. Well, not the voc- the vocal students were more on the left than the right, but not everyone else, I am sure. I mean, it was a, it was a town in upstate New York, in the county I came from, was very Republican. That whole capital district was very Republican. And I am, I do not know what, what Binghamton's landscape was at the time in terms of national politics, but I am assuming it is somewhat conservative. I mean, upstate New York could be transplanted to the Midwest. It has got essentially nothing to do with metropolitan New York. IG: 39:33 A lot of America, I think. PN: 39:35 Yeah-yeah. IG: 39:39 So-so, you know, so you said you do not remember any protests. PN: 39:45 I am sure there were. IG: 39:46 But what about your friends? What-what was the general mood? PN: 39:51 Oh, the general mood was anti-Vietnam, anti-establishment. Long hair. Do not trust anyone over 30. I mean, this was 1970. You know, get stoned. IG: 40:04 What kind of music did you listen to? PN: 40:06 Grateful Dead. I think they actually, it was a famous concert at Binghamton. IG: 40:12 I think it is (19)68. PN: 40:15 I was not, I think it might, yeah, they were still, I did not, I was not there at the time, people were still talking about it. Leo Kottke, I remember going to one of his concerts. He is a fantastic 12 string guitarist. There were others. I went up to Cornell for a concert with some group Traffic. I think it was called. Yeah, something like that. IG: 40:33 Remember the Nixon impeachment, the trials. IG: 40:35 That was in (19)73 impeachment trials, were not they? IG: 40:41 Yes, yeah. PN: 40:43 And I think I already had, already I had already graduated, because, as I recall, that was the fall of (19)73 and I graduated. I took, I was on the five-year plan because I had transferred. And actually, my second semester in Binghamton, I really was not quite sure what I was that I wanted to be there all the time. And through this major that I created, I petitioned for an independent study on the American Crafts movement, which was a hippie movement. At the time, people were dropping out, moving to Vermont or somewhere, and making pottery or building furniture. And there was an anthropology professor, Daniella Weinberg. I think her name is, who I asked if she would be my sponsor on this because I was looking at it from sort of an anthropological perspective or a sociological perspective with no brilliant framework, I will have you know, but so I literally hitchhiked around New England, talking to American kids who were, quote, American craftsmen. I wound up living for a while in a commune in the Berkshires. I was hitchhiking, and someone picked me up and going around to different crafts people. It was a very interesting semester. I mean, literally, I was hitchhiking. [crosstalk] You could do that. IG: 42:01 It was safe to do it when- PN: 42:02 It was-was for me. IG: 42:06 Yes-yes. PN: 42:07 So, it did not even occur to me that was no nothing, no big deal. So, I did that. IG: 42:13 Was it like living on a commune as part of your thesis experiment? It was a thesis or? PN: 42:19 Just started. I read to write a paper. I see, I do not know where the paper so, so it was probably only four credits, so I did not get the 16 credits, or whatever a semester is worth. So, I wound up graduating in (19)73 not in (19)72 I got out of high school in (19)68 if I had gone straight through. And that was fine. So, I was in no hurry to be an adult anyway. So that worked out perfectly, which was not uncommon in those days. I mean, IG: 42:51 To prolong your [crosstalk] PN: 42:52 To prolong your, prolong your adolescence. It was not my education. So, yeah, I am clear on that again, if I were a pre-med major or an engineering major, I would want to keep going. I would not be wandering around as much. So- IG: 43:11 So, what did you learn about this experience? Your anthropological study? PN: 43:15 Well, the professor had me read de Tocqueville on America having to do with American the American spirit and democracy, which was a big experiment when de Tocqueville wrote that a total experiment. When did you write it? 1789, or something like that? Well, what was funny about it is, I wound up in New Hampshire, standing in someone's yard. People would just invite you to stay and this so I met some guy who forgot if there was a potter or whatever it was. His father was a producer on the Today Show in Manhattan. PN: 43:52 No-no. [crosstalk] become- PN: 43:53 Back then this kid's father, he dropped out of college to do this. His father was a producer on the Today Show. So, it is just kind of not that the father's famous, but it is just sort of funny. Here are these middle class, or probably upper middle class, or beyond, in his case, who are dropping out, not going the straight and narrow, not working for IBM as a salesman, but doing this and that. Those were the times. Those exactly what the times were, I do not know that it directly had to do with Vietnam, but it did have to do with, I think, not being all that impressed or interested in just following the normal course of events. Because look what it got us. PN: 44:18 Exactly, breaking cultural norms and- PN: 44:40 That was the norm, was to break a cultural norm. So, in fact, the cultural norm was to have long hair, to smoke pot, to maybe have an organic garden. That was in that school. That was the norm. It would not have been the norm at other schools, perhaps, but on that ilk, in that era, that. You know, Buffalo was the same. IG: 45:01 So, you remember watching the American family? PN: 45:06 Yes, in fact, one of my professors actually a guy named Richard, Richard Young [James Young], who was a political science professor at Binghamton, that was our that was the centerpiece of our class, was good for remembering an American family. It was a screwed-up family. The kid- IG: 45:25 Very interesting. PN: 45:26 Oh, very interesting. I mean, pretty rare. One-one of the kids came out as gay, which was rare with the father. You know, the father, the mother accepted it. I am not sure the father did. The parents got divorced, as you remember, the father sold mining equipment to Australian mining places. So Young- that was sort of interesting, too. I had forgotten about that class looking at the structure of American society, and it was some would say it was dissolution. I mean, that family became dissolved. I have forgotten about his siblings. I think he was the eldest. He had a younger sister. I do not remember. I think there were three. Think there were three, three kids, but yeah, that was really of that era. And you know, the teachers, Young and Starobin, they may have been radicals, but academically, you could not just hand in some crummy paper. They were, they were serious about their work. IG: 46:26 Have you read their scholarship afterwards? Or, you know, they were, they producing scholarship of this period. PN: 46:34 They were young guys. They were very young. That might have been the first. They were in their early 30s, and then Young, I do not know whatever happened to him, but I later lived in Berkeley and looked him up. He was living in Palo Alto, and we went out for dinner or something, because he was a young guy, still sort of related. You know, I thought I related to him because he was only eight years older than I was, or something like that. I tend to sort of remember people and hold on to them. And there was a TA in might have been in an American literature class. I am not sure which one literature of the American city with a guy named Milton Kessler, wonderful guy who he also had an influence on me. In a TA in one of the literature courses. Later went on to he was doing his PhD. He wound up having a career in prep schools, which was sort of when you cannot get a job in academia. You do that. So, if you scratch the surface of any fancy prep school or all these PhDs. And then I about 10 years ago, I looked him up. We had nice conversation, and he was interesting because of an assignment he gave us. I had never heard of this assignment. Compare the same work as literature. I think it was this and in its movie form or something, that I found the most creative thing in the world. I had never heard of such a thing. PN: 48:00 Yeah, it was very creative. I thought he was a terrific young teacher. So, I had, I was happy with my professors as I recall, at least the ones I recall. Let us put it that way, which is good. I do not want to think of the bums. I am thinking of the ones that I that I enjoyed. And there was a certain amount of academic freedom to be able to petition this academic board and do this independent study, you know, the create your own major, and then even to take that semester off and get a sponsor, it worked out. I am sure my parents were worried sick. It worked out. PN: 48:00 At the time, it was probably [crosstalk] IG: 48:36 And, you know, and yet, over time you-you and I think that people of your generation return to very establishment type of jobs well after this, this period of great freedom and experimentation- PN: 48:55 Yeah-yeah. Well, you know, some may have become artists if there were artists to begin with, which that helps. Some you know one guy my roommate is a real estate developer in California, I think, pretty successful. Another one of these guys that shared an apartment with me became a physician, so they may have been a little more focused than I. so yeah. I mean, people ultimately need to make a living, of course, and some people- IG: 49:30 So, you know, from the vantage point of now, how do you look back on that period of, you know, breaking norms and going to communes and exploring, and this period of great experimentation [crosstalk] PN: 49:48 Personally, for me, for me, personally, it was fun and it was not very taxing, which might have been part of why I wanted to do it. But when I think back on it, there was a tremendous amount of social disorganization and dismay. Do not do not trust your elders. Look at going back to Vietnam. It was terrible. I mean, it was absolutely horrendous. What was going on and it largely kids in college were personally untouched, because it was a poor person's war. If you were in college, you got a deferment. If you knew someone, you got in the National Guard, as did my as did my older brother, because my father knew somebody. So, as I think of my high school class, and I was probably at a class of 400 none of my friends were in the army. When I look at the yearbook, or there is a like a website for my high school, and I see who was in the army and who was not, it was not the kids whose parents were college educated. No shock, you know, to me. So, it was not an equitable war. In a sense, there was a complete waste of life, terrible waste of life. And people knew that, and that is why all this social foment. Yeah, I do remember a march downtown in Binghamton, some anti-war March. IG: 51:11 But how do you think, for example, your generation, because of that experience, was different from your parents' generation? You probably looked at the world very differently. PN: 51:20 Oh, absolutely. My father was in the army, in the US Army, when I was raving and ranting about the Vietnam War once, and this and that. And he said, you know, how do we put it? Some people are patriots. He was not necessarily talking about himself, but he was saying, do not be so judgmental, you know. And he knew what it was to leave a wife and go in the army, drafted at age 34 which was not fun to be in basic training when you are 34 and everyone else is 18. He is already out of college 10 years. You know, it was, he did not get hurt or anything, but it was certainly a sacrifice. And he knew plenty of people in his company that died, or just people who sacrificed. So, he looked at it differently, even though he was a lifelong Democrat, I do not know what he felt about the Vietnam War. Probably in the end, he got disgusted by it, as most people who were not complete apologists wound up doing as the truth came out. I do not think we ever had heated discussions. I would rave and write naively, and this was a conservative Republican town I grew up in, so it certainly affected the air I did not know at Binghamton, I did not know necessarily, any veterans who may have come back. One thing that absolutely has stuck in my mind, when I was at Hofstra, there was a guy on my floor who was a veteran, and he was there on the GI plan, probably. So, he was older and more, certainly more mature and older than these freshmen. He was stuck with on us, poor guy, and we were playing in the hallway. We were throwing a football or pitch and catch or something, and someone missed. His door was open. He was at literally the end of the hall. The ball went into his room. He ducked the one under his desk like a grenade. I mean, I could practically cry now, when I think about it, it was so traumatic. Was just a baseball and but can you [crosstalk] traumatic this- IG: 53:32 This treated PTSD. PN: 53:34 Yeah, which I never asked him about his experience with this poor guy. I am thinking, what something I never lived through. It is what I do not know about. I am thinking, wow, I think he was rattled. IG: 53:47 Right. I think that studies of PTSD came to light because of the Vietnam War. PN: 53:52 Yeah. I mean, think of the drug addiction and alcoholism that came out of it. I mean, World War Two had its trauma on people too, but there were not drugs to addict, generally, other than booze, you know? I hope that guy is okay. So, I did not really know many people who lived through that, necessarily. IG: 54:19 It is in some way you are saying that, you know, do not be judgmental, because the experience of even the people that you are well, you are not opposing them, but you know they are participants in a movement that you oppose. PN: 54:20 Yeah. IG: 54:23 You know that their-their experience is- PN: 54:28 But I do not know that I was that mature in that time. [crosstalk] I would have, would I have quote, defaced the flag? Probably not. It is just a difficult time. And Binghamton was very lefty. So those who were, quote, pro war. I did not talk. I did not know about it that, you know, they probably kept, maybe they kept a low profile. I do not know. I did not get involved in it, you know, I did not get involved with them. I do not know. I was not terribly political. I mean, I knew I, you know I would vote, and I know how I voted, and all of that. I had my feelings, but I was not marching, or I probably did once or twice, but it was not a big part of my life. IG: 55:30 And throughout your life, you-you were not political. I mean- PN: 55:36 I was, oh, I am very, I am very aware of current events. I always vote. I think once in my life, I did not and felt terrible about it because I missed a date or something. I was American Studies major to not, of course, care about it would be remarkable to me. You know, in the current climate, I am disgusted. And actually, I have with my wife's urging, she is, she is, she thinks more than I do, that mass protest movements have an effect. So that we went to the anti-gun rally two weeks ago. I think it was in Boston. It was all over the country. It went to the women's rally and all that. And some of it, I think, is, I do not know how useful it is, especially in this state, because this state always votes to the left and the legislators and all that. So, it is like, who are you complaining to complain in Arizona or in western Pennsylvania? I do not know what it means here, you know? Yeah, it is disheartening. I mean, it is sort of like the Nixon era in a way, with the corruption and the cynicism on the part of the people in power. IG: 56:43 But there are probably lessons from, you know, I am sensitive about the time that I have been keeping you but I think that, you know, the (19)60s have something to teach this generation about, social organizing, protest, do not you think? PN: 57:01 Would hope, well, it shows that it can make a difference. Vietnam eventually stopped huge marches. Johnson was in the White House covering his ears because he had to literally covering his ears getting sick over it. Yeah, it is going to have an effect. And maybe, maybe these teenagers who have organized the anti-gun rally will have an effect. I certainly hope so. The really small number of-of fundamentalist Christians and NRA members have been hijacked from it being a sportsman's club that taught about gun safety to being a shell for an industry, it is disgusting. So maybe these kids will have an effect. I certainly hope so. IG: 57:46 I hope so too. PN: 57:47 Yeah. IG: 57:52 Any-any concluding remarks that you have, any-any-any advice that you have for you know, students, young people listening to this interview and thinking of what to do with their lives and how to plan their careers. PN: 58:09 Well, if you do not know what you what you want to do, it is hard to plan. If you do know what you want to do and you are definitely going to go to graduate school, yeah, study hard and get into the grad school of your choice. But if you are not that focused necessarily on a technical career, which is what rolls the roost right now, take courses out of your comfort zone. Take an art history class, take a music appreciation class, take something that you will live with, sort of like play a lifelong sport, not football, learn tennis. You know that if it is a liberal arts education, think of what that means and use it because you can enjoy it for the rest of your life. I mean, sure, get a career. Figure out how to make a living, become a technical expert, if that is what you want to be on something or other, or be a high school English teacher, if that is what float you know floats your boat, no question. Or librarian or a development officer. So, advice would be, take advantage if you are at a. at a Binghamton or any other liberal arts school, take advantage of the fact that it is a broad menu, and if there is a faculty member that you admire go to their office hours, they will appreciate it. You may learn something. They may help you get out of your locked out car like Robert Starobin [inaudible]. One thing I failed to remember. I did not forget it; you did not ask. I had an interesting experience in that I, quite coincidentally, wound up renting an old farm on the top of Bun Hill Road, if you know where that is, right. I was having my car fixed at some gas station on closer to downtown. And I needed a ride back to the school. Some lady was getting gas, and she was going to be heading back toward the campus. And I said, "Are you going by the school?" And she said, "Yeah." I said, "Can I have a ride?" This woman gave me a ride in those days people would do. And we chatted a bit. And she was living on this old farm that she said. I said, "Oh, that sounds really nice." She said, "Well, my husband and I are moving. Do not say anything to the landlord, but maybe you would like to rent it." So, I rented this farm. Old place was not being farmed, but this place went literally on the top of Bun Hill Road with a lot of acreage, broken down, old farmhouse for $100 a month, three-bedroom, three-bedroom place, and found met some guy in the parking lot who is my friend to this day, who said, "Yeah, that sounds like fun, yeah, why do not we do that together?" And his was common at the time. He had just gotten back from traveling in the Middle East, people used to go to go through Europe with a backpack. And he said, "You know, I would like to get goats. I saw a lot of goats in Lebanon." I said, "All right, let us get goats." So, we did dairy goats. We had three or four goats, and it was fun. Then we had an organic garden, and got credit for it. You could pull this act. There was a geography, geography professor, Ed Van Derval [Joseph VanRiper]. I think his name was something like that. He was willing to if we took, kept the journal and took notes, we got four credits crazy on raising, on having an organic farm. So, the guy down the road had a plow, and we- was a big enough plot that we had. We paid him to plow it for us, and we grew stuff. And we had this organic, I would call it a farm. We had a garden, a large garden, and that was fun. And the property still had some plum trees that were bearing fruit, and there were- IG: 1:01:55 How wonderful. PN: 1:01:56 And there were apple trees all over the place. I collected apples and brought them to the cider mill and Endicott and had them pressed and then sold them on the campus. IG: 1:02:07 It was fun. So, you were part of this. PN: 1:02:10 I was part of the hippie [crosstalk] IG: 1:02:10 But part of, you know, maker, I do not know that it was maker is now. PN: 1:02:18 That is now, that is making. IG: 1:02:20 Yeah, sort of, you know, yeah, back to the line. PN: 1:02:24 It is back to the land thing. IG: 1:02:25 And but that you got credit for this at college. IG: 1:02:28 Yeah, it is pretty amazing at a legitimate college and all that. So, it goes back to that American Studies thing I did when I was hitchhiking around talking to craftsmen and all that, that was really a back to the land movement. I so to an extent, while in college, I did that, actually, I have a picture to show you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip Nachman Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nachman, Philip ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Philip is owner of his Watertown, Mass.-based business, Nachman BioMedical, Medical Industry Exec Search, a recruiting firm for selling medical devices. At Harpur College, Philip created his own major in American studies, which included a class in Jewish-American literature. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Phil Nachman.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:50 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d5c72d9d541f5973b0d3b756e0688c8c.mp3 53c12e7263995f5d71510a394c025345 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Reverend Canon Claudia Wilson Year of Graduation 1965 Biographical Text Reverend Claudia is a semi-retired priest at St. John’s Episcopal Church in Yonkers. Before her ordination into the priesthood, she worked in publishing. At Harpur College, she was the first woman elected head of SDC (Students for Democratic Change), the progressive student government. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Student Associations, Students for Democratic Change; Harpur College – Alumni in the Episcopal Church; Harpur College – Alumni in Publishing; Harpur College – Alumni living in Yonkers, NY Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Student Associations, Students for Democratic Change; Harpur College – Alumni in the Episcopal Church; Harpur College – Alumni in Publishing; Harpur College – Alumni living in Yonkers, NY Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Claudia Wilson Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 19 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay [inaudible] CW: 00:03 My name is Claudia Wilson. I graduated from Harpur College in 1965 I am going to be 74 on July 12. I am currently a retired- I am a priest in the Episcopal Diocese of New York. I retired from active ministry, but I am a priest associate on a voluntary basis at St John's Church in Yonkers. IG: 00:26 Okay, so and we are currently interviewing you for the oral history project. CW: 00:37 Yes. IG: 00:37 Okay, so, tell us where you grew up. CW: 00:42 I was born and raised in the Bronx, and was my family was still living in the Bronx when I was a student at Harpur and um, I- after-after school, Terry, then [inaudible] now sailor, who was also an alum, and I rented an apartment in Manhattan, and I went to work in the book publishing business. After two years, I took a year off and got a master's degree in English from the University of from Toronto, University of Toronto in Canada. Came back and I had essentially a 23-year career in the book publishing business, mostly in college textbooks. Finished up with 11 years at Harper and Roe, now Harper Collins. And then I decided, I think partly because I never went into the Peace Corps or any of those things, that I would do some good work. And I went became the volunteer coordinator at God's Love We Deliver, which was doing people with AIDS. And then I felt a call to the diaconate in the Episcopal Church, and I went to work for an Episcopal Church for two years as their parish administrator of St John's in the village. That was in 1990 to 1992 which was a very interesting experience. I continued to volunteer for God's Love We Deliver. And of course, this was at the height of the AIDS crisis, and village was the epicenter. And I delivered, delivered meals to at that time men with AIDS during my lunch hour. And that was quite an, quite an experience, I have to say. And then after, in 1992 I was ordained to the diaconate, and I was a deacon at my church, which was sending nations of Antioch on West End Avenue in Manhattan for two years. And then I had moved to Riverdale from Manhattan, and I came to St John's Church here in Yonkers as Deacon. I was Deacon here for 12 years. I was also as soon as I was ordained on the staff of the Episcopal Diocese of New York. And then after a while, after 10 years as a deacon, discerned a call, a change in vocation to the priesthood, and I went to Seabury, Western seminary. IG: 01:56 When was that? CW: 01:56 That was in 1990 to 1992 which was a very interesting experience. I continued to volunteer for God's Love We Deliver. And of course, this was at the height of the AIDS crisis, and village was the epicenter. And I delivered, delivered meals to at that time men with AIDS during my lunch hour. And that was quite a, quite an experience, I have to say. And then after, in 1992 I was ordained to the diaconate, and I was a deacon at my church, which was sending nations of Antioch on West End Avenue in Manhattan for two years. And then I had moved to Riverdale from Manhattan, and I came to St John's Church here in Yonkers as Deacon. I was Deacon here for 12 years. I was also as soon as I was ordained on the staff of the Episcopal Diocese of New York. And then after a while, after 10 years as a deacon, discerned a call, a change in vocation to the priesthood, and I went to Seabury, Western seminary. IG: 03:03 Which is where? CW: 03:04 Evanston. Evanston, Illinois, just outside of Chicago. I was 60 years old when I went to seminary. IG: 03:04 Wonderful-wonderful. CW: 03:10 Very interesting too. It is a totally different educational experience to go to college in the (19)60s and seminary in the in the 2000s let me tell you, was wonderful. Anyway, after two years, I was ordained to the priesthood. I was priest on a halftime basis in a church, church of the Holy Communion in May, a pack and continued to work. IG: 03:31 I know where that there's a Russian Orthodox convent. CW: 03:34 Yes, right across the street from my church. IG: 03:36 Wonderful, what a coincidence. CW: 03:39 Yes. Anyway, I was half time at Holy Communion, and half time working for the diocese as a camp for congregational development. And then in in 2016 I became 72 and the rules of the church said, church pension fund always say, you have to retire from the pension fund collect a pension. But if you are a priest in charge of a congregation, you must leave that congregation at 72 and I had already been working for 50 plus years by that time, and I just decided to retire. So, I retired, but I came and I lived 10 minutes from St John's Getty square, came back here. Knew the priest in charge. He was somebody I knew from the Cathedral of St John the Divine, and so I am now priest associate here. So, in a nutshell, that is my 50 years of working after school. IG: 04:29 Thank you, thank you for that very succinct synopsis of a long career. CW: 04:36 Yes. IG: 04:37 A very diverse career. CW: 04:39 Yes, I feel like I have had I have been very fortunate. Many people do not find like do not are not able to find one thing they like to do. And I had two distinct careers of things that I really loved. So, I feel very fortunate in that way, IG: 04:53 And you are still doing it. CW: 04:53 Yeah, I am still doing it. Yes. Right. IG: 05:01 Engaged. So, let us return to a deeper past, which is your childhood and upbringing, and tell us a little bit about your parents and where you told us the Bronx and your upbringing and whether they went to college, if they encouraged you to pursue your education? CW: 05:25 Yes-yes. My mother was from Louisville, Kentucky, and my mother did graduate from college. She went to Miami University in Ohio. She was a social worker before she got married. My father was in the New York City Police Department for 32 years and retired as a captain in 1968 they met because my father, early in his police career, was in the emergency squad, and my uncle by marriage, my mother's brother-in-law, was also in the same squad, and fixed my mother and my father up for a date, when my mother came to New York to visit her sister. My father did not go to college. His parents, they just could not afford it. Even-even going to City University, which would have been free, they needed his income. So, which is unfortunate, because my father was a very-very bright man, really, very intelligent man, lover, great lover of music. Great opera fan, very good with languages. When I was in high school, I took Spanish, and my father used to coach me on my on my Spanish homework he had gotten. My father went to Stuyvesant. He got the Spanish medal every year he was in Stuyvesant. And even then, 40 years later, he remembered it. Do you know, he really just had that gift, you know? IG: 06:43 Well, he also probably had occasion to use it, living in New York. CW: 06:45 Yes-yes, no, Bronx. I think you know; you have to understand that when I was growing up in the Bronx, the neighborhood that I, that we lived in- IG: 06:49 It was very different. CW: 06:55 -was product was white. IG: 06:57 Yes. CW: 06:58 It was predominantly Roman Catholic with a significant Jewish population. In fact, when I went to elementary school, these were the days that they did not close the schools on the Jewish holidays. And literally, I was the only girl in my fifth-grade class. And there would be a handful of us in the whole school. So it was, which was good, I think, because I kind of grew up, unlike a lot of white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants, not feeling like I ruled the world, if you know what I mean. And I had, you know, most of my friends were either Roman Catholic or Jewish, and I went to a Presbyterian Church, which was about the only time I came into contact with other students. So, you know, so it was, it was in we lived in University Heights, and at that point, NYU uptown, which is where Bronx Community College is now, it is just down the block from us. And the Presbyterian Church I went to had been founded by-by NYU faculty members back in 1901 so I was very fortunate. I mean, I went to public school in the Bronx, and I went to-to Junior, what was then Junior High in the Bronx, but I went to high school at Hunter College, high school in Manhattan, which changed my life, really. I mean, in a way, first of all, you know, I got out of the Bronx, in a sense. But also, I think Hunter, the work we did at Hunter, really prepared me for Harpur, in a way that I know I saw a lot of my classmates who came from smaller, consolidated schools in upstate New York, you know, where they wrote essays about what I did my summer vacation, and then he got, they got, you know, to Harpur, and they were asked to write an essay about Dante's Inferno. We had sort of been doing that kind of thing all the time, and I had, I had gotten some AP credits in English and history. So, I think Hunter was a very-very significant- IG: 09:02 I know, friends who have gone. CW: 09:04 Yes, exactly. And, of course, you know, one is proud of the fact that Supreme Court Justice went to your high school. And various other people, and also people I knew at Harpur, Deborah Tannen, who's the link. IG: 09:04 Of course. CW: 09:19 She-she was a year behind me at Hunter, at Hunter and Harpur, so I knew her. IG: 09:23 How interesting. CW: 09:25 Yes-yes. So then, you know, so I think the time that I went to Harpur, there were a lot of kids there who could have gone to an Ivy, Ivy League school, but, you know, maybe did not qualify for a scholarship, and certainly parents could not afford it. I had my best friend in high school went to Cornell, and we were shocked that it was going to cost her $2,000 a year, you know, because people did not have that kind of money, you know. So-so I think that also made Harpur a kind of unique experience at the time that, you know, there were a lot of people there. Who were very bright, very bright, you know, and could have been in other places, but you know- IG: 10:06 How did you choose? how did you end up choosing Harpur? CW: 10:09 My father, who did not go to college, was very firm that I should go away to school, because he said to me that if you stay home, it is just going to be like an extension of high school. And quite frankly, you know, my policemen did not make much money in those days, not that we were, I mean, I never considered us poor, but we certainly, you know, could not have afforded $2,000 a year, you know, at Cornell so Binghamton Harpur offered, you know, a really good education. And, I mean, I think my, I think, was like $500 a year or something like that. And so, it was well within, you know, our means, IG: 10:49 and you probably got a Regents scholarship. Do you remember? CW: 10:52 I do not remember. I do not remember, to tell you the truth, but I probably did, I do not remember, I really do not remember, you know. And of course, it was, it was away, but close enough, you know, although, of course, you know, it is thinking back on it now, you know, we did not have cell phones and we did not have the internet, and, you know, I called my parents once a week on Sunday. You know, my mother and I wrote letters to each other, letters in envelopes and stamps. Nobody does that anymore, but that was the way, you know. So, in a way, it was good, especially if I am an only child. I think it was good for me because I really had to be on my own, so to speak, you know. And I think my father was absolutely right, you know, that it was good for me to-to get away and, you know, be on my own, because I was very spoiled. But, you know, managed. Okay. IG: 11:40 Did you have an idea of what you wanted to accomplish at Harpur? Did you know- CW: 11:45 I think in those days, one was not quite as fixated on education as the means to a job did you know? IG: 11:54 Yes. CW: 11:54 I mean, I graduated with a degree in humanities, you know, with English literature, and I went, you know, and I interviewed at like, five or six publishing companies. I mean, yes, they were, you know, jobs as secretaries. That is how you started in publishing. But they were there, you know. I mean, I- it was very different time in terms of the in terms of the opportunities that were available to people, especially people with liberal arts degrees. You know, I mean, I do not know what I would do now, you know- IG: 12:24 [crosstalk] time when you could actually aspire, you know, to any right profession, to any [crosstalk] CW: 12:31 I mean, I went into publishing because I had been an English major, and it just seemed like the natural thing to do. And my friend, Terry, whom I roomed with, was going to library school, she became a librarian, as a matter of fact, and wound up, ultimately- IG: 12:45 What is her last name? CW: 12:46 Now, Shorttail, she became, eventually, she went to work for the Public Library system in New York, and then eventually, when her husband worked for the New York Times in Washington, and they moved into Maryland, and she went and became, I think she, she became a librarian at University of Maryland, Baltimore campus, the one that, you know, the, I think it is the place that that just won that big, you know, NCAA title, or whatever. But anyway, she became a librarian, [crosstalk] we could do that. I mean, you know, my salary was like $85 a week. I took the job because it was $85 not $75 that everybody else was offering. And I do not know, I do not remember what she was making. She was working part time as a librarian, and but, you know, I mean, we paid $200 a month for a furnished apartment in Chelsea, which was not this fancy then as it is now. And, you know, we ate at home a lot, and we saved up enough money we gave a big party the first Christmas, we were, it was Christmas of (19)66 not (19)65, Christmas of (19)66. We had enough money saved up that we could, you know, kids cannot do that these days. You know, they are living in their parents’ basements. So we were, I think we were very fortunate. IG: 14:00 Yeah, it is a different world. So, you know, in publishing, you worked as an um- CW: 14:08 I work for the I started out at the McMillan company as assistant in the permissions department, and then I moved to the contracts department, and then I moved to the school book department as a kind of production editor assistant. Then I then that was, went right after that, but I took off the year and got a master's degree in at University of Toronto, came back and went to work for-for the Prentice Hall. IG: 14:36 And as-as what? CW: 14:38 As a production editor, you know. IG: 14:38 As a production editor. CW: 14:40 Yeah, right. IG: 14:41 I know exactly what that is. CW: 14:42 Oh, you do, okay, yes, words and I became the Prentice Hall at the time, did this series of books called spectrum books. You probably had them. You probably, well, maybe not, but they were paperbacks that were like supplement, supplementary text, you might say. So, we had like 20th century views, which was 20th century views of major authors, and [crosstalk] and we had a series on film, and a whole bunch of series, and I eventually became the sort of managing editor for the production editing department for for that. And then- IG: 15:17 Interesting material. CW: 15:19 Very interesting, very-very interesting and sideline. It is not really probably important for this, but many years later, when I had my church in map pack, my organist, who's actually a jazz musician, on how we got to talking about it, it turned out his father had been one of my authors, which was really weird. His father was an expert on Godard, and we had a book about a Godard [crosstalk] IG: 15:42 [crosstalk] was interesting [crosstalk] So as a production editor, did you get to read this material? CW: 15:51 Yes, well- IG: 15:51 Were you just more interested in people- CW: 15:55 Well, I mean, obviously we had, we had proof readers, and we had things like that. So, I was but I got very especially the film books. I got very interested in the film books, and I felt like I did more than just, you know, kind of shuffle traffic things around. And I had a lot of contact with the authors at that point. And then later became an editor at Prentice Hall, and what was then called their managed book division. Managed books- was a big thing in the (19)70s where you had a titular author, but you also did an enormous amount of research about what the other competing books were like, how much, how many words they how much space they gave to certain topics, and all of that. And so, I became a, became a development editor, and eventually became a development editor at at Harper and Roe, oh, I went to work very briefly for something called the Franklin Library. They did those leather-bound volumes, you know, that you see on people's shelves. And that was good because they paid a lot, which enabled me to get a job that paid more. So eventually, a man that I had known at Prentice Hall, who had gone to Harper and Roe in the College Division, hired me to be their-their development sort of head of their development department. And then- IG: 17:16 What does the development [crosstalk] CW: 17:17 Well, what we did was what we did was work. There was the odd quote author, and then there were also professional writers. And so, you-you arranged, you oversaw the research that was done for the book. You worked with the author, you know, on the outline and sort of work with you also arranged for, you know, professional reviews of the of the of the of the manuscript by, you know, other-other academics, and then sort of saw it through production. You were not the production editor, but you were the person in house that the production people worked with. But then eventually Harper and Roe had a terrible time with its biology editors. Two of them sort of failed quickly. At that point, they- we had a-a textbook for anatomy and physiology for two-year schools for people who are going to be eight, you know, not nurses. Well, could be for nursing, you know, could be for technicians. You know, whatever was the best-selling book in the department, and very expensive to do. Not only made a lot of money, but cost a lot of money IG: 18:28 What were the years of doing this? CW: 18:30 Oh, okay, I became the development, I became. So eventually, they asked me if I would be the acquisitions editor, the buyer for the biology list that was 1981 and they wanted me because I understood what it meant to do these lavishly illustrated, you know, books, and I had a good reputation for my dealings with authors, you know. And so, I did that for seven years, I guess. And then then became the Executive Editor for Sciences at Harper and Roe, and then left that in at the beginning of 1989 IG: 19:05 Did you have any science background? CW: 19:09 But biology, unlike a lot of other sciences, you need to do these words, you know what I mean. And I had some really wonderful authors that I liked very much. And of course, I traveled around the country, you know, visiting, visiting university, you know, colleges and universities, and I really, I really enjoyed it a lot. But as I say, I eventually I had, I had my-my parents did not go to church, but they sent me to Presbyterian Sunday school. I went to Presbyterian Church all in high school, I went to Presbyterian church for the first two years I was at Harpur, and then my very best friend at Harpur, Susan Calkins. Now Susan Calkins, Ritas, was an Episcopalian, and I visited her during the summer between our sophomore and junior years, and she took me to church of the Advent in Boston, which is very famous for its high church liturgy and incense and smells and bells, as we say. And I was so swept away by the liturgy that I decided to become an Episcopalian on the spot. It was actually-actually confirmed while I was at Harpur. And uh- IG: 20:16 So, tell us a little bit about that environment. And- CW: 20:19 Yes, I mean, it was, it was not a lot of people went to church. I was, in some ways, sort of an oddball in the way, you know, I was president of the Student Government. IG: 20:31 No, I did not. CW: 20:32 Oh yes. IG: 20:33 I did not know. CW: 20:33 Yeah-yeah. I was the first woman elected to be President of the Student Government. That was in (19)64 and I am sorry, (19)63 and we-we had a group called Students for a Democratic community, which was a take-off on a democratic society. And this is just my opinion, check with other people. But I think one of the reasons that they, that group sort of nominated me to be President of the Student Government was because I was a good girl. Do you know what I mean, it was, I was the kind of person that the administration, if they did not like what STC was doing, they could not really fault me. Do you know what I am saying? Good, very good grades. IG: 21:19 And maybe you were [crosstalk] CW: 21:21 Yes, exactly. I mean, I believed in what stood for, but I was not personally a radical kind of person, you know what I mean? [crosstalk] So I was, I was kind of difficult to be sidelined because I was, you know, a rebel or, right, what you know, whatever. So anyway, but so, yeah, well, you know, at Harpur at that point, I think I can tell you a story that will give you an example that will kind of illustrate something of what it was like. I was thinking about this as I was thinking about coming here today. I had a friend. This is freshman year, I guess, or maybe sophomore year, I do not remember who lived in I lived in O'Connor. She lived in Johnson, and I used to go over there occasionally to visit her. And every time I went over there, one of the girls who lived on the floor was playing Johnny Mathis', Wonderful! Wonderful! 24 hours a day next door to me in O'Connor was living a girl who played Joan Baez, is House of the Rising Sun, 24 hours a day. And that was sort of what it was like. You know what I mean, we had very distinct groups. We did not call them hippies. We call them sickies, so, you know. And it was, you know, graduating in (19)65 the Vietnam War, we had, like, I think, one protest toward the very-very end of the time that we were there. So, we actually went to class. Do you know, do not, I am saying we did not? And you also have to remember, if you entered Harpur, I was like, 17, okay, in 1961 well, I had spent most of my formative years in the (19)50s, you know, we were kind of on a we were, in a way, a transition, I think, to what came later. And our thing was, really civil rights was a very big thing, civil rights club. We had a civil rights club. We also went to Buffalo to protest the hearings. HUAC had hearings about the State University. I think in Buffalo, we went to protest that. IG: 23:27 What was thought about? CW: 23:28 Well, you know, HUAC House, on American Activities Committee was looking into, I guess, what they thought were communists in the state universities. IG: 23:35 Meaning the faculty[crosstalk] CW: 23:36 Yeah, I would assume Buffalo, this is Buffalo. Buffalo, well-well, I think it was in our sophomore year that Buffalo joined the State University, you know, because originally Harpur was the only liberal arts school, and then buffalo joined, Stony Brook joined, and they converted Albany into from being a strictly teachers’ college into even what they call the university center that was also a liberal arts school. So, there were four of them liberal arts schools by the time we-we left. So anyway, we, you know, we protested about that. I think the only thing- IG: 24:11 So, you were politicized? CW: 24:12 Oh yes, we were, we were, but when you talk to people who graduated later, Vietnam was, there was a very big thing. It was not for us. No, it was. I mean, although I certainly had friends who-who you know when you know we were in the draft and you know or not and all that, but I think for us, civil rights was probably the biggest thing, because you have to understand that we were in in school during the height of the Civil Rights Movement. I mean, Martin Luther King's, you know, the speech in Washington, the Civil Rights Act, the voting right wrote Rights Act, all of that was and we did have people who went south in the summer, you know, to teach and demonstrate and-and whatever. So that was very important. The only thing that really stopped classes for us was Kennedy's death. Of course, Kennedy died while we were there. And-and, of course, the Cuban Missile Crisis was in the fall of our son is in the fall of our sophomore. IG: 25:13 What did you think about that? CW: 25:14 Well, we actually watched it on television, and we did not have to understand, in the dorms, you know. So, they had, they had it, yeah, they brought in the TV. They brought in a TV for The Beatles too, [laughs] IG: 25:29 On the Ed Sullivan Show. CW: 25:30 On The Ed Sullivan Show, yes, we watched it. And, of course, for Kennedy's funeral. I mean, you know. So no, I think people you know, thought that conceivably, that for the Cuban Missile Crisis, that this could have been World War three, you know. And who knows what would have happened, especially being in New York. I mean, we all grew up, you know, with the duck and cover drills when it was just so ridiculous, [crosstalk] especially in New York, come on. IG: 26:01 But this was the thing the past at Harpur College. None of, none of the drills [crosstalk] CW: 26:07 We had grown up- IG: 26:08 I understand. CW: 26:08 -you know, we had grown up with the idea that the Russians were going to come and bomb us, do you know? And I mean, blow us up. IG: 26:14 But did you believe that? CW: 26:16 I think as a child, I remember we went on a summer vacation, and we went to Gettysburg. We saw the, you know, the battlefield at Gettysburg and the ray caverns. And we were coming back, and we're staying overnight in this motel someplace in Pennsylvania, I guess. And in the middle of the night, a siren went off, and I thought it was an atomic attack. Of course, it was the volunteer fire department. You know, so, you know, we grew up with the notion that the siren was going to go off and, you know, the bomb was going to come down. Of course, my father, when I was in junior high school, we had early dismissal drills. Instead of the duck and cover, we had an early dismissal drill so you could go home and die with your family. And I always thought, Well, my father's a cop. He was not going to be home. No, so anyway. But it was, I think, you know, things that would seem petty. Now, like, you know, we had a demonstration against the rule against wearing shorts in the dining but it was, it was very much a part of that development of the 60s mentality. IG: 27:29 Right. And yet, and yet, you know, you, you participated in the duck and cover. I know that everyone did. And you believe that, you know, the Soviets were possibly a threat [crosstalk] And you were also, well, my protesting at Buffalo against you are, yes, so how does that? How does that kind of there? There must have been some kind of transition in awareness and political awareness. CW: 27:52 Yeah, I think, I think also now I grew up my father, who was not he was a cop, but we are not Irish, and we were not Catholic. And he was a Republican, very unusual. So- but, you know, as, of course, you know, Kennedy was elected when I was in high school. And I think, you know, that was sort of the beginning of-of more of a political, you know, awareness, and I never voted for Republican in my life. I voted for a Democrat. I voted the first vote I ever cast was in 1965 in New York City for John Lindsay as the mayor my father hated and so, you know, I voted for Lindsay. I got my mother to vote for Lindsay, you know, so, I mean, I was, I was more of a, I was a Democrat, you know, fairly early on right now. And I think at Harpur, you know, there were a lot of people who were very politically aware and very politically active. And of course, you know, I fell in with that group. IG: 29:01 Do you think that you're thinking altered about the world and how you perceive politics in the world at Harpur College? Or did it occur before? CW: 29:11 Probably it became- yeah, I would, I would say yes. I would say that I met more people in at Harpur who were politically active than I had certainly ever met at Hunter High School. I do not think, I do not remember people being especially politically active, although, you know, at Hunter especially, and probably also at Harpur. At Hunter, there were a number of girls whose families had been--two of two of my best friends at Harpur were from Latvia and had been displaced persons after the war, and whose parents had been whose-whose father stayed behind in order to get his wife and children out and other--we had a girl from the Ukraine. We had girl. We had people, you know, who were whose lives, families' lives, certainly if not their own. Because I am most of my classmates were born in (19)43 or (19)44 so we're talking about people who were born during the war, especially if you were born of European parents, either your parents were refugees or, you know, or you were yourself, I mean, in some way, as an infant, anyway. So, I think that I was certainly conscious of political developments. We had a course at Hunter I remember in my senior year about the developing nations of Africa, do you know? And so, you know, I think one was aware, but I was not, I was not really an adult at that point. I think, you know, at Harpur, you became an adult, and I think that made a difference also. IG: 30:53 And you gravitated to political activity because of the seeds that were planted early on- CW: 31:00 Yeah, I think so. And just because of the friends that I made at Harpur. You know, my friend Susan Calkins, it was, I said it was my very best friend. Was very politically active, and still is, for that matter. So, you know, I- IG: 31:15 What kind of, do you remember the kind of conversations that you would have? CW: 31:18 I am sorry, I do not. IG: 31:20 You do not of course. I know, I know [crosstalk] You know what you know a question I thought of you went you mentioned that you went to seminary at age 60. CW: 31:33 Yes. IG: 31:34 How was that experience different from attending college at 17? CW: 31:39 Yeah, well, last time before I went to before I went to seminary in 2004. I had not been in a formal classroom since 1968 when I got my master's degree at Toronto. So I was, just, say, a little bit apprehensive about how this was going to go. And of course, the technology was entirely different, you know. So anyway, got into class. Now a lot of a lot of people were also people who had had other careers. So, although I was among the oldest in the group that I was in, you know, a lot of people were in their 40s and 50s, but we had some people who were in their 20s, you know, and 30s, and we had a lot of good laughs, I have to say, because our life experiences had been so-so different. I remember in my Old Testament class, my Old Testament professor, who was probably in his 40s at that point, was very big on bringing in examples from current culture, especially music. And he was into the discussion. And he was very big on multicultural interpretations in the Bible. He was originally his family was Korean, I think yes. So anyway, he would bring in these references to these groups that I must confess I had never heard because, you know, music is the great divider. IG: 32:57 Of course. CW: 32:58 Until one day in class, he said something about Simon and Garfunkel and all of us of a certain age, clap. [laughter] But I really, I really enjoyed seminary. I enjoy, I always enjoyed school. I mean, you know, class and all of that, and it was nice. It was like using a different part of my brain and taking a rest from all the other things that I had ever done. And as I said, you know, we, especially some of the younger kids in the in the class, we really appreciated each other, I think, you know, so it was, it was, it was good. I was I was really because it was funny when I, when I was accepted into the ordination process for the priesthood. I never expected that the bishop would say to me, you have to leave New York. But he was right, because I had been working for the diocese for so long, and I never would have gotten away from it, you know. And he had been the dean at Seabury Western before he became the Bishop of New York. So, he said to me, "How about Seabury?" And I had, I had promised myself that whatever he said, whatever it took, I would do it. And so, I picked up all my stuff and the cats, and I moved out to Evanston for two years. So. IG: 34:10 You mentioned attending Presbyterian Church in Binghamton. CW: 34:15 Yes. IG: 34:15 What was that like? Were there students, or was it- CW: 34:18 There were few students. I mean, the problem was, if you look at our yearbook, there was a group called Young Americans for Freedom, which was sort of the Goldwater type. And I was not like them at all, you know, just not like them at all. [crosstalk] No, not particularly my church. But I just meant being-being known as a Protestant that went to church, you know, right, a little right chance I always thought. But then, when I went, when I be, when I decided to go to the Episcopal Church, my friend Susan was there. And so it was, you know, I felt more-more comfortable. IG: 34:54 And where was the church? CW: 34:56 And it was in John, actually, the church I went to that I was confirmed at was in Johnson City. There was also a church in Binghamton that we went to occasionally. So, in fact, I went because when I was confirmed, my family was not there. The rector of the church invited me to come to dinner, and I had dinner with his family and the bishop, Bishop Higley, his name was, who was the Bishop of Central New York, who confirmed me, so, yeah. IG: 35:22 Was there a great division between town and gown, between the student community and Binghamton [inaudible] CW: 35:32 Yeah, probably, I think, you know, do not forget, we did not have cars. IG: 35:38 So how did you get around? CW: 35:39 Well, eventually a bus. I mean, some people did, right, very-very few, eventually they ran a bus line that came up into the campus. So, you know, you did not, I mean, except, you know, to go to, you know, to go out on a Friday night or something like that. You really did not get into town, into town, per se. I mean, I was not, I did not feel very aware of Binghamton. Do you know what I mean, as a town, and there were, there were some people who lived, I mean, other than students who lived in Binghamton, but I mean people who were from Binghamton, who were in in school, but there were not that many. I did not, I do not think I could be wrong about that, but I do not think there were that many. And do not forget how small Harpur was also at that point, when I graduated, there were 900 people there. IG: 36:24 Oh, my God, so I did not, yes, I did not realize that small. Because- CW: 36:29 Yes, absolutely, in fact, our last year there was the first year that that they had graduate, any kind of graduate enrollment. But yes, oh, 100 students, roughly when we graduated. So, I mean, like, for example, I went to all of the reunion, all the 10-year reunions, you know, and when we had the 40th, the place had changed, but they were still, think I still recognized it when we went back and, you know, in 2005 for the for the 50th, or 2015 I should say, for the 50th, we could not find our way. We could not find our way around. It was just totally different. IG: 36:29 And now there are three campuses. CW: 36:31 Oh, really? IG: 36:31 In Johnson City, there is the schools of pharmacology and nursing. CW: 37:12 Oh, yes. And of course, there were no professional schools at that point. IG: 37:20 [inaudible] professional it was a liberal arts. So let us talk about your education. CW: 37:26 Oh, yes. IG: 37:26 Did you remember any outstanding classes faculty made a particular [crosstalk] CW: 37:33 Yeah, well, as you know, but when we were there, there was still a number of faculty who had been part of the sort of University of Chicago group you know that- IG: 37:42 Yes, I heard about that. CW: 37:44 -because, you know, Bartle had hired all these people from, more or less from the University of Chicago, and the curriculum was really more or less based on this model of the great books, you know. So, for example, we had, you know, two years of what they call lit and comp literature and composition, where you read something and you wrote about it. Essentially, I had, I had placed out of the first year for my AP course, so I started in the second year. And it is interesting because I had also placed out of a year of history, and I was not sure at that point whether I was going to be a history major or an English major. And I just, I remember Mario DiCesare taught the comp course that I took, and I thought he was so wonderful. And unfortunately, the history teacher that I had was not as good, so I sort of opted into English. And, you know, we had Dr. Huppe [Bernard Huppe], who taught, who taught Chaucer, I mean, who was a legend. And I do not know the I thought the English faculty was especially strong at that point. So, and then I also took German and for three years, and the German faculty was good. So, you know, that is, those are the things I remember the most. IG: 38:57 Did you have anything similar to an immersion? Did you speak program in German? Did you speak German outside of the class? CW: 39:05 No, I did not. I did not. I have a girl, woman that I roomed with at the very beginning. She and I had both gone to Hunter. She became a German major, and I am sure she had more, you know, than that. But I really liked German. I have to say, IG: 39:20 It was a language lab. CW: 39:23 We had a language lab. We listened and we spoke, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we spoke in class. But it was more it was not. It was, I mean, conversation was not the sort of main thing of the course. The more it was a literature it was really reading, you know, IG: 39:24 Reading and discussing. CW: 39:29 Yes. IG: 39:31 English? CW: 39:41 Right-right. You know, well, I remember very distinctly what the Hunger Artist by Franz Kafka, which is strange enough, when you read it in English, but when you are a student and you are reading it in German, you are saying that cannot be what it is you know-know, so, and, of course, poetry Heine and, I mean, German poetry is really beautiful. Yeah, I still have, I still have my German poetry book at home, you know. So, yeah, so it was more literature based than actually, than conversation, you know, at least what I what I did. I mean, there may have been a conversational German, course, I do not remember if it was. IG: 40:23 How did you spend your free time? You were part of the student- CW: 40:27 So, well, the senior, but my, you know, junior, senior year, being in, being involved with-with student government, that took up a lot of time. I do not, I do not really. Now, you know, when we first moved in the dorms were not finished all of them, and so we tripled up. So, I was in with two senior girls my for the first, like, first semester. But I do not remember what we did other than, I mean, you know, the curriculum was, was, you know, was strenuous. It was not, you know, you could not just sort of look at something the night before a test. And, you know, and that was it. And we wrote a lot of papers, I mean, a lot of papers. And, oh yes, actually, in my junior-junior year, yes, junior year, we started a magazine called The Humanities Review, and I was- Bob Posick was the editor, I think, and Francis Newman was the faculty advisor. His sister was in my class, by the way, Frances new or the class after us. I cannot remember. Francis Newman was the faculty advisor, and I-I was something. Maybe I typed it. I cannot remember, but I remember, yes-yes, the humanities review I was involved with that. IG: 41:54 I wonder if it still exists. I heard of it. CW: 41:57 Oh yeah, I do not know what happened after we graduated to tell you the truth. IG: 42:02 But, and what kind of, what kind of articles did it run? Do you remember? CW: 42:07 I do not. I do not really remember [crosstalk] IG: 42:07 Was student writing? CW: 42:07 Well, there was student writing, yeah, I think mostly, I think it was mostly student writing. I cannot honestly remember to tell you the truth, right? And, you know, we had a lot of creative people, you know, Andy Bergman. And Bergman, who was the movie person was, and his best friend, Richie Walter, became the head of the UCLA Film-Film School. So, they were and another guy in the class, Alan Goldsmith, he was the he was the editor of the yearbook. I got in terrible trouble. If you look at the (19)64 yearbook, you can see why it was very different, very different from anything that that had been and then, you know, you know, we have what it was also interesting was that, for example, Mike Tillis, who was part of the STC, you know, sort of what you would call hippie group. Also played basketball, which, you know, we do not think of that, but he did. He is now a rabbi, by the way, in Israel, Orthodox rabbi in Israel changed his name, yeah, I have not he wrote in Israel. He is in Israel. He is an orthodox rabbi. Now you would never have guessed. Never in 1 million years, have guessed. Everybody went to the basketball games. I mean, everybody that was the big sport. We also interesting enough had soccer because [inaudible], I think was his name- IG: 43:36 Did girls play? CW: 43:37 I do not remember. I know the boys played. But I do not remember the girls played. But we had a soccer team because we had a kid from Norway who had played soccer in nor you know, at home, and you know, he played. So. IG: 43:52 Were there any other international students? CW: 43:54 I was just about to say, yes, there was one poor boy from Africa who came. IG: 43:59 I think I have heard about this poor boy from any [crosstalk] CW: 44:01 He thought it was going to be close to New York City. [crosstalk] Yes, I cannot, I cannot remember his name now, but I felt so sorry for him because, I mean, he was all we were all white. I mean, you know, almost, almost all white. But you know, it is like, [crosstalk] like when I was, I say, when I was in, when I was in public school in the Bronx, my entire public school-school was white. There were no black kids when I was in junior high school in the same basic neighborhood, there was like two black girls now, Hunter was more it was more diverse because we had girls from all over the city. Do you know what I mean? So, we had, we had, you know, black girls, we had Asian girls, we had girls, you know, whose families, you know, were refugees. You know. I mean, it was we and we had girls. It was not only diverse, although the majority were white, but there was enough. Significant number of non-whites that you-you know, it was diverse. But the other thing that was really diverse about-about Hunter was the economic background of students, because we had girls who lived on Park Avenue, girls were on welfare. And then a girl who's who lived on Park Avenue, because her father was the superintendent of the building, you know, on Park Avenue. So, it was and everything in between. IG: 45:25 And you have, you did not have that economic diversity at Harpur? CW: 45:29 I do not think so. I do not, I do not think so. IG: 45:31 What about the Upstate students versus the New York City, or they were all from kind of a [crosstalk] CW: 45:38 Well, there was a, yeah, I mean, the mid there was probably what, 60 percent of the students were from New York City, I think. I mean, it was an overwhelming number. And I remember meeting a girl who had gone, who was from upstate somewhere, who had never met a Jew before in her life, you know, so it was, you know what it was. And as I say, there was another girl who was, who was on, came to Harpur, probably had been, you know, in the honor roll in her high school started was getting D's because she had never done the same kind of work. You know, it was not that she was stupid. She was not she transferred to Fredonia; I think it was--got on the Dean's list. So, you know, it was very different. You know, Harpur was really different than because everything else was a State Teachers College. And I do not mean to say that all the Upstate kids were like that, but there were a number of people who, just because of the kinds of schools they went to, did not have the opportunities that, like, say, I had, you know, and of course, we had kids from city, kids who were from Hunter, who were from Bronx Science, who were from Stuyvesant, who were from Brooklyn Tech, you know. I mean, you know, it was a there were some people from elite kind of high schools that public, you know, very few private school people, I think, but public. IG: 45:38 What were some of your best experiences at Harpur College? What do you remember with the most fondness? CW: 46:11 I do not know that I remember any individual experiences, but you know, there are people that I met there, like Terry and like Susan and like Bob Freeston and Ryan Goldsmith and Andy Bergman and people, just people who were really interesting and really creative, and we had fun. Do you know what I mean? We had; we had a good time. We worked hard, but we had a good time. I do not, I do not remember anything, you know, a particular occasion, but I was very happy at Harpur. Do you know what I mean? I was really, really glad that I went there. Now, not everybody was. I had a couple of people. One girl who, you know, transferred out after her freshman year, went back to the city because she just missed New York, you know, more than anything else. And I think she was also very young. And I think that was also hard being away from home, and you know, all of that. IG: 48:04 So, do you think that, you know, maybe Hunter College kind of set the level of your political engagement at Harpur College? CW: 48:20 I do not know; I really would not say that. I think what it did set was the level of my ability to take advantage of the of the of the education that was there, you know that really and truly, even if I had to choose, I would have to say that Hunter changed my academic life more than more than Harpur did, just because it, it was sort of like I went to Hunter for three years, 10th grade to 12th grade. It was like three additional years of Harpur educationally, you know, I mean the level of what you, what you, you know, the kind of education you got. IG: 48:59 Did you notice that there were different expectations for men than there were for women at Harpur College? I think maybe not for you, because you have a Hunter College experience. CW: 49:10 Yeah-yeah. I never felt that. For me personally, there was any difference. And of course, at Hunter, almost all the teachers were women. I mean, we had a couple of men, but three or four, I guess at Harpur, they were mostly men. I am, in fact, I think, actually, in my entire four years there, I do not think I had a single woman as a teacher. I think all of my teachers were men. I do not remember any woman, and I think I would, because they should have stood out, and there were women there, certainly, but-but I, you know, it is funny, I do not think we were aware of it, do you know, because that is just the way. It is just the way things were. But I do not, I never felt at all that I was, you know, discriminated against, or-or somehow, you know, not appreciate. Educated or whatever, being a woman, I really did not you know it was interesting, because when I got out of school and I went, I remember this one very distinctly, interview for a job, $75 a week, a publishing company, which name I have forgotten now. And I went, and it was an assistant kind of job, which they all were. And so, I said to the person that I interviewed with, and "Could you tell me what the you know, what are the opportunities, you know, for advancement?" They said, "Oh, do not worry about it all. The girls get married and have babies." Well, nobody would say that today. And I did not go there, not because of that. Well, that was part of it, not because of what he said about women, but just because he more or less said, there is no opportunity for advancement. I mean, you know, but also because, as I said, they were paying $75 a week, and I found a job for 85 you know, so in a department run by a woman, by the way, which was interesting now that I think of it. But anyway, no-no, I did not feel it. Now, you might get an entirely different, you know, experience from somebody else. But I-I was, I was never shy. Let us put it that way, in class, ever. IG: 49:11 How do you think your classmates would remember you me [inaudible] period? CW: 49:11 Me? IG: 49:11 Yes, CW: 50:28 Probably as a good girl. I think probably somebody intelligent and, you know, and to a certain extent, I was, I was a leader, but I do not, I did not feel and being the first woman elected as the president of the Student Government, which I suppose, was a big deal, but it did not seem all that big at the time, you know. So, I enjoyed our 50th reunion, I have to say. IG: 50:47 Were they astonished to learn that you had become a priest? CW: 50:52 No, because I had been, I was, I was ordained 25 years ago to the diaconate. 26 years ago, to the diaconate. So, I had already been to reunions where I was in an ordained life. So, it was not that, it was not that strange. But the funny thing was, when we did our 50th reunion, Jeanette Mayer Luzasky put together this video, you know, for our and she asked me if I would be the narrator, because they figured I was not afraid about getting up in front of people and talking. Since I did that all the time, you know, and I have never been afraid of public speaking. We had, I remember when we were when we had the race for the USG president, it was Richie Walter and Jesse, something or other, and myself, and I have always been good on my feet, do you know? And so, I think I kind of surprised people and maybe surprise myself at, you know, being able to sort of hold my own, you know. And Richie was very, very bright, you know, very smart and very quick. So. And then, of course, when I was in publishing, when I was when I was in the acquisitions part, I had to do sales meeting presentations, which I have always said was one of the best [crosstalk] IG: 53:03 What do you think owes to that ability to speak? CW: 53:06 I have never. I have I do not know why, but I have never been shy about it. When I was in the sixth grade for our graduation, I had to recite Emma Lazarus poem, you know, in front of the whole auditorium, and I was fine with it. Just never was afraid of it. I do not know why. Maybe because my parents, my parents were very encouraging. Do you know what I mean? They always sort of thought I could do anything. And I think you feel that when you know, when you are a kid, if you are you know, if you get that kind of support, IG: 53:37 Right. If you get that kind of support, I, for one, have acted on the stage. I have no fear, all right about and yet, public speaking is a very different matter. CW: 53:50 Yeah, what was good, was good training for preaching. [laughs] IG: 53:53 It was very [inaudible] Do you ever look back on your years in college to draw lessons that you want to impart to your children today. Do you ever look back at yourself during those years and draw material for your service? CW: 54:12 I do not know. Not-not necessarily. No, I do not, I do not remember. I do not think I do that, but I do. I do look back and I think how fortunate I was to be able to get a first-class education without bankrupting the family. Of course, no debt. I mean, we did not have debt. Then thank you. You know, I have, I tried to take out, I took out a loan when I went to seminary, and, you know, so I now paying off a student loan, but I never had any of that before. My entire education was practically free. I mean, up until seminary and University of Toronto, I got a I got a scholarship there, so that also helped, and it was not that expensive either. I think I just, I was glad for the people that I met. I was glad for the good, very good, you know, teachers. That I had, and just forgetting, frankly, for having a liberal arts education, I really, I find it, you know, kind of sad that children, practically in preschool, have to choose a career, you know, and all they are doing is being trained like, pardon me, seals, to do something. And you know that to me, that that was not what education was for. I mean, it was, you know, when we were, you know, young kids, young adults, it was kind of the last time that you could just do something because you wanted to do it. Do, you know, they did not, you did not have to do it because it meant you could get a promotion, or you did not have to do it, because this was part of the job, whether you liked it or not. I mean, you know, and-and you had a chance to maybe explore and learn things that you did not even know, you did not know, [laughs] which- IG: 54:13 Small college community yes were given that opportunity. CW: 54:13 Yes. And, of course, the other thing is, and I asked this question when we went to the 50th reunion, because now that Harpur has, what, 16,000 students, or something like that, that is everybody. It is not just the undergraduate. But, you know, the classes that we took were taught by full professors. We did not have TAs you know what I mean, we did not. I mean, yes, they were large lectures, but even the discussion classes were led by real faculty members, you know, and I always felt that. And I asked the president of they had a question-and-answer thing. I said, you know, that was one of the great things. In fact, both Susan Calkins had gone to Purdue for the first year, I think, and-and-and Terry Shortell had gone to Penn State, they both transferred in. And one of the reasons they transferred in was they said we were in these huge rooms, but the professor was way down there, and all we saw were teaching assistants, you know. So, I mean, in that one-on-one interaction, and I always thought that that was one of the best features of the Harpur that I knew was that you really got the benefit of up-close work with somebody, you know, and- IG: 54:13 Probably after class extracurricularly- CW: 54:49 Yeah, to a certain extent, but yes to a certain extent. But I think that was important. I really do. I think that, you know, it was a, it was a really good liberal arts education, and I was very glad that I had it. IG: 55:31 What-what are, what were some, you know, life lessons that you can share with I know that that the educational experience now is very different than when it was in your time. But what advice can you give to- CW: 55:31 Oh my God, you are going to miss your train. IG: 56:56 Oh-oh. CW: 56:56 What time, what time is your train, 4:57? IG: 57:25 4:57. CW: 57:25 We are not going to make it. IG: 57:25 We are not going to. I will take the next [inaudible] CW: 57:25 What-what time is it, you know? IG: 57:25 I will have to [inaudible] CW: 57:25 I guess, I guess, the thing I would say is, you know, and obviously we, most people, especially these days, start out with an idea of where they are going, you know. And I would just say, be open to the possibility that you may change your mind and to not just you know, not just to take you know, courses that you think fit in with this career that you have chosen for yourself, but maybe take something that is a bit of a more of a challenge, or just that might interest you for some reason that you know, you know, because, as I say, it is probably the last opportunity to kind of just do something because you want to right now, and not because it is necessarily prescribed. I mean, I have no idea what the you know, how much, how many required courses there are these days and how they you know, because we had sort of two years basic education, and then from then on, it was kind of what you want, you know, what you chose to do, you know, with distribution requirements and that sort of thing. But I would, you know, I think that would be my major advice is to, you know, try things out while you are there. You know, while you have the chance to do it before. You know, you have to support yourself, and you have to support a family or something like that. You know. IG: 57:25 Do you have any concluding remarks? CW: 59:22 No, as I, as I said, I am very I am very grateful for the for the experience, the education and the experience that I had at Harpur, and for the people that I met and the faculty members that I met, and, you know, to be able to have a first-class education within the means of someone, you know, who's not well and does not have to come out with this. There were no, there were no debts then. But I mean, in other words, that the opportunity was there and you were not constrained by, oh, I cannot afford that. You know, that was, I think that I felt that that was really. Really important that it was a really first-class education that did not, you know, bankrupt my parents so and, you know, again, having the residential experience, I think, was also very important to, you know, really sort of be, you know, with people, and also you know, you know, as an only child, I sort of had to learn to take care of myself, and you know, and I did, basically. IG: 1:00:31 Thank you very much. CW: 1:00:32 You are very welcome. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Reverend Canon Claudia Wilson Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Student Associations, Students for Democratic Change; Harpur College – Alumni in the Episcopal Church; Harpur College – Alumni in Publishing; Harpur College – Alumni living in Yonkers, NY Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wilson, Canon Claudia ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Reverend Claudia is a semi-retired priest at St. John’s Episcopal Church in Yonkers. Before her ordination into the priesthood, she worked in publishing. At Harpur College, she was the first woman elected head of SDC (Students for Democratic Change), the progressive student government. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Claudia Wilson.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-19 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:33 minutes