1 10 47 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/60cec59d770b9c91884d40fe45451305.mp3 52dee783fe7c9670de20d8714300c9ea https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3c63da288c8182b8d15396fff51ce06c.jpg c27841adc89d3cb54993eab65248cea4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2017-11-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stephen Norman Weiss Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Stephen Norman Weiss is an attorney in New York specializing in Litigation, Patent and Trademark and Intellectual Property cases. He is managing partner at Stephen Norman Weiss Law Office, but currently semi-retired. He pursued a liberal arts education at Harpur College, which he believes was on par with an education from an elite private college. His JD is from New York Law School. Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni living in Tenafly, NJ; Harpur College – Alumni working in New York City. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Stephen Norman Weiss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 27 November 2017 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:03 All right, okay, so for the record, this is Irene Gashurov interviewing Steve Weis. Steve, can you tell me your name, your age and who you are? SW: 00:23 Okay, my name is Stephen Weiss. I am 72 years old. I am a man. I graduated at Harpur College in October 1966 but I am officially the class of June 1967. I am a lawyer. I practice patent litigation and international law in New York City, and I live in Tenafly, New Jersey. I have a wife and four children and five grandchildren, and what else about me? That is who I am. IG: 01:01 Um, that is fine. That is [crosstalk] SW: 01:03 Tenafly, New Jersey. IG: 01:04 Okay, so where did you grow up? SW: 01:06 I was born in Bronx County, New York City, in 1945. I go- I-I grew up in, oh, I was I live- We lived in the Bronx until March 1958. My first memory, big memory of the Bronx, was coming home from elementary school, and there was a block party going on, celebrating the death of Joe McCarthy and the whole street and- It was fabulous. 815 Fairmount Place. You can actually find that in Google, but that is where I lived, and there was a big block party, and I was wondering what was going on, and they were all celebrating that someone had died, which was odd to a kid, but um the person that died was Joe McCarthy. So I lived, we lived there, and my sister, myself and my parents lived there until March (19)58 and then we moved to Flushing, Queens, and we lived there until- I lived there until June (19)63 when I left to go to college. I went to high school at Brooklyn Technical High School, which was in Brooklyn, New York, so I had to commute to high school, and there I studied engineering. I know I never became an engineer, and that is probably good, because the bridges and tunnels in New York City that stand today probably would not be there if I went for engineering. [laughs] So then I start- when I applied to Harpur College, at the time, there were two financial programs that made college free for me. I do not know if they still exist. One, you had to take a test for. It was called the Regent scholarship. And if you were a resident of the state of New York, you took a test, and I do not know a certain grade gave you the scholarship, and otherwise you did not get it. And so I got that. And then there was another program called the Scholar Incentive Award, and that was given to all residents of the state of New York, so if you had both, then basically went to college for free. And which is what I did, went to college basically, I mean, there was, there was, like a nominal fee, but I did not pay for dormitory. There was a meal plan, and of course, there was tuition. I paid for books. That was it. And at- when I got accepted to Harpur College, there was no state univ- there was a State University of New York system, but Harpur College was known as Harpur College. It was, was not, was not known as SUNY Binghamton. It was not, I do not know if it was part of SUNY Binghamton or not, but the sign was Harpur College. The acceptance documents which are going to donate to you say Harpur College. And they were just starting the trimester program. My class was the first class that had the opportunity to go in July of (19)63 I wanted to get out of my house as soon as possible, so I opted to go right after I graduated high school to go to college. So that is my background leading up to college. IG: 04:20 Yeah-yeah. so what I am just will return to Binghamton University, and I am very interested to learn what you knew of Harpur College at the time that you applied. SW: 04:37 They- there was no Internet, there was no email, the- we had a guidance counselor at the Brooklyn Tech. And at the time, if you went to school in the one of the New York City High Schools, because my sister went to music and art in New York City, what they would tell you is that you could apply to and I remember three or four colleges, period. I mean, you could not pay that. You could not apply to more, even if you wanted to. I think if you were rejected, you could get another application. But I know people, I know I have four kids and they, I know what they did, but I probably spent more in college applications than people spent on tuition back then, but, but then you could not do that, and one of the applications had to go to the city university system, which was city CCNY, Queens College, Brooklyn, you had to apply to one of them. So that left you with three. And then the guidance counselor said, Well, there was, there was a, he called it a new college. I guess it was not new. Was not was I do not think it was new. It was fairly new because it had been someplace else. Had been Vestal, I think, and they recently moved to the Binghamton just a few years before I started. I think, I think, I am not sure. So he gave me this brochure on Harpur College, and it was a liberal arts college, and I did not want to go into engineering. I want to want the liberal arts, because I like the literature. I like learning various subjects that it want to be, you know, science and engineering. So that was a liberal arts college, and I do not remember. Oh, I know where else I applied. I applied to Oberlin. Oberlin, Ohio. So Oberlin College, and I do not remember if I got in or not, but I mean, I went to gone there for free, then I could not afford it, and I applied to one more, and I did not want to go to the city colleges, because I had to get out. I had to get out. I was very highly motivated to get away for reasons that I will go into so I remember, I remember it was a green brochure, and it just, I just remember, I remember the brochure, it was green, it was like four pages, and it just described the liberal arts education. And so it intrigued me. Now, we did not visit colleges. Then the way, you know, as I said, with my four kids. I mean, I spent money. We flew all over, we flew to Michigan, we flew out to everywhere you can, you name it. We visited with four kids. As I said, on airfare and applications, I spent more than college tuition, but then you did not visit. So CCNY I knew because was in the city, Oberlin. I never visited. I just knew from the brochure the other college that I applied to, I do not even remember, and I did not visit Harpur so but that was the only university that, other than CCNY, that I applied to, where I could use the Regent scholarship and the incentive program. So it was liberal arts, and it just looked interesting, so that is why I applied there. But there was no visiting, no interviews, nothing. IG: 07:55 Let us just backtrack. Um-um, tell me what your parents did for a living, and how many were you in your family? SW: 08:11 My father worked for the state of New York as a tax examiner, and also had a second job selling insurance. He did that for my home, and my mother was a clerk or secretary for the Department of Buildings for the city of New York. And my sister, who is seven years older than I, she actually got married when I was 13 and became and finished the last two years of college, being married and she became a teacher. So she moved out in (19)58 she moved out the year that we left the Bronx and moved to Flushing. IG: 08:52 So did your parents value education, and did they see that education as a vehicle of to a better life. What was their attitude? SW: 09:06 I want to be totally honest [crosstalk]. IG: 09:07 Yes. SW: 09:08 Okay, well, I came from a dysfunctional family, okay, my parents really did not get along, just one of the reasons I had to get out, and that is one of the reasons that my sister left in (19)58 and she got married. She was sophomore in college. She just had to get out. So it was a very difficult childhood, and that is one of the reasons I went to wanted to go to Brooklyn Tech to just to get away. So I commuted to high school. I did not want to go to my local high school. I took a test, and in Brooklyn Tech, you could start in the ninth grade, Bronx Science and Stuyvesant, you had to start the 10th grade, and I wanted to get out. So my mother, neither of my parents went to college, but my mother was-was more encouraging. My father, I actually had to forge his name on the consent form to go to Brooklyn Tech, but my mother helped me out, you know, when she could. So my mother valued education. Now my-my mother's brother, he was actually dean of the graduate school at CCNY during the (19)60s. His name is Oscar, was- is Oscar Zeichner, z, e, i, c, h, n, er, and my mother's maiden name is Zeichner. So his family was also dysfunctional. I do not want to fame my uncle, but he was, he was dean there, and they wrote history book, and so he obviously highly educated, PhD. So my mother valued education, my father, I mean, I did not really, I mean, would not really talk that much. So I do not know what, what he valued, but I always thought. I always knew I would go to college. I do not know why I knew, but I knew I would get actually, ever since I was a little boy, I wanted to be a lawyer. I mean, I have, like, I have some stuff from my childhood, like, like, old, autographed books in the sixth grade. You know, it starts off go little album far and near to all the friends I hold so dear, and tell them each to write a page that I might read in my old age. So now I am 72 I went back and looked at it when I was in the third grade. I wanted to be a lawyer. I do not know why, because I did not know any lawyers. No one in my family was a lawyer, but I wanted to be a lawyer. [laughs] so, so I knew I was going to get a higher education. I never doubted it, and that is not because of parental encouragement or anything. IG: 11:50 But it if not parental encouragement. Do you think that the encouragement came from your teachers and maybe your [crosstalk] SW: 11:57 I think everyone- IG: 11:58 -your, um- SW: 11:59 I am sorry. IG: 12:00 Yeah. SW: 12:01 -everyone in my neighborhood was expected to go to college. I mean, I was brought up in a Jewish neighborhood in the Bronx, and everyone there was expected. It was just like you were expected to go to kindergarten and expected to go from the sixth grade to the seventh grade- IG: 12:18 Right. Yeah. SW: 12:19 I mean, it was just-just understood that that would happen as natural as, you know, as guys going as eating dinner, We just understood that you would go to college. I do not know anyone who did not expect to go to college in the group of people that I grew up with. I mean, it just was, I do not know anyone who just thought of getting a job, or thought of enlisting in the military or thought of going becoming a technician, everyone that I knew, every page in my year, in my elementary school where they signed the autograph book. They all talked to talk about college. IG: 12:23 Right. So was that- was the culture [crosstalk] SW: 12:32 It was the environment, was the entire environment. Was the public, the most unbelievable public-school system. IG: 13:01 Yes. SW: 13:02 I read in high school. I read The Rubaiyat. I read, I read Heart of Darkness in high school. I mean, I mean, I remember, I remember, I remember poems I read in the in junior high, I remember reading John Green Whittier. Do you familiar with that? No. Do you know that? IG: 13:22 No. Third speaker: 13:22 Yeah. SW: 13:23 The Maud Muller, it says, "of all the words of tongue and pan the sad a star it might have been." I still remember that this elementary school would do a sixth grade. So it was the public-school system was unbelievable at that time, I mean, in my neighborhood, Jonas Salk, who had the polio vaccine. He went to my Junior High School in the Bronx, yeah. It was just-just unbelievable public education. IG: 13:37 Right. Right. SW: 13:53 So it was just expected. IG: 13:56 So when you arrived to Harpur College, what-what did the campus look like? You know, was it a culture shock for you to come from the city. SW: 14:10 No. IG: 14:10 And end up in the- SW: 14:12 The country. IG: 14:13 -in the country. Yes, SW: 14:14 No, it was not. I do not know why. It really was not. I mean, it just-just, I cannot explain it. I said, no, like, like zelig, like a chameleon. Third speaker: 14:26 Do you want to draw that for us? IG: 14:26 Yeah. SW: 14:26 Just, I just-just changed. I mean, I just, all of a sudden, I was a college student. I remember very early on there was, there were tables in the student center. Now, if you drove up to center drive, there was a, like, a like a circle, like you would drive up to center drive, you made a left, and you went around a circle, and there was the student center right in front, and there was an Esplanade, you know, an elevated walkway. I have a movie of it which I am going to email you. You see it there? I guess I could draw it. Yeah, I am not a good artist, but, but, but that is where the bus pulled up with that video I showed you. But anyway, in that building I remember, let us see, there was a bookstore, and there was some rooms, hold on, in the back and to the right, where we used to where we had meetings, including SDS [Students for a Democratic Society], but the date that within the day or two after you got there, there was not a formal orientation. There was a letter I got from an advisor which I gave you, which is in that folder. IG: 15:34 Right. SW: 15:34 That was my orientation. He met me. IG: 15:37 Right. SW: 15:37 And-and in there-there were tables, and there was the debate society, which I joined immediately. And the coach was Dr. Eugene Vasilew. And there was a thing called services for youth, which worked with poor children in the Binghamton area. So that intrigued me, so I joined that there were tables, and you would go to the table, and there was a pad and-and there were people who were in that group, and they would talk to you about it, and you could sign your name. IG: 16:11 Why did the opportunity of working with poor children in the neighborhood intrigue you? Was that part of your upbringing? SW: 16:20 I probably identified with them. IG: 16:22 Yeah. SW: 16:22 I mean, I would have to go through analysis the real reason, which I am not going to do, but-but probably, you know, probably I identified with them. IG: 16:34 So, do you think that there was a lot of outreach that Harpur College did to the community. Do you think that it, it had strong ties to the community? SW: 16:45 Right. I think so. Yeah, and they really, they made you feel welcome. I mean, they made me it was a very small school. I mean, when I visited it in October for the 50th, my 50th Homecoming was very- it was large. There was like, I saw those separate communities they called the College in the Woods. I think they called. IG: 17:04 Right. SW: 17:05 That did not exist. None of that existed. There was Harpur College, there was, there was, let us say, Champlain Hall. There was a building to the left of that. There were, like, just a few dorms who basically knew, I think that the cornerstone said (19)58 or (19)59 and I entered (19)63 I mean, some, some of them were being built. Then in the back there was a dawn being built called Chenango, it was not built yet. I moved in there in my third year as the first tenant. I mean, the first student. So you felt like it was a very small community. And at least those of us who entered in July knew everyone IG: 17:06 Right-right. SW: 17:07 Now that changed, because I could talk about trimester, but in that first going there, there was no-no one was there before us, because we were the first trimester. So there were, there were, you know, that was it. Everyone was started [crosstalk] IG: 18:05 You were really the path breakers. SW: 18:07 Yes, yeah, right. There were sophomores and juniors. I mean, people who were in the by- the two-semester system. Obviously, some of them opted to take the next semester starting July, but, but it was very small, so you sort of got to know everybody. So you really felt, I mean, you felt welcome. You- professors had us over it. One of the videos that I am going to email you, that I showed you was, Dr. Vasilew having us over at his house for barbecue. Dr. Carlip [Alfred Benjamin Carlip], he was an economics professor. I do not know if this name anything mean anything to you. He was chairman of the economics department, C, A, R, L, i, p, he had us over to his house. Dr Kadish [Gerald Kadish], he- Third speaker: 18:52 He is still there. SW: 18:53 Taught. He taught history. Third speaker: 18:54 He is still teaching. SW: 18:56 Really? He is still teaching. I have a picture. I have to send it to- it is in my basement. I got to find it. He, he came in my last year, the last semester I had an apartment in Vestal, right near the Vestal High School. So we had an anti-war meeting there, and he came, and I have a picture of him there with his wife, who I learned he divorced a few years after that. May have remarried, but he was a specialist in Egyptian- Third speaker: 19:25 That wife died, so it is, but he is, he is good. SW: 19:29 Really? He is what Egyptians are still specialized in Egyptian history. Third speaker: 19:33 Ancient. SW: 19:35 Ancient history. Yeah, right-right, conversational hieroglyphics. I am joking, but yeah, but yeah, so he is still, he is really teaching. Third speaker 19:43 And very sound, yeah. SW: 19:48 Well, he was young. He was young. I mean, I am 72 and he is maybe 10 years older than me. So he must, he must be in his 80s. Yeah-yeah. Third speaker: 19:53 Maybe even more. I mean, he is old, but he is still functioning. SW: 20:01 That is cool, huh? I value would have known that I would have looked for him at the October reunion. He would have remembered me because he came to, we had anti-war meetings in my in my apartment, he came, he came to a few of them. He came with his wife, the one that he divorced anyway. So, yes, so-so it was very welcoming, warm atmosphere, inclusive. IG: 20:26 And it is, it is very unusual that you had that much interaction with faculty being at a public university, because you would expect that, you know, from a Princeton or- SW: 20:37 Right. Right. IG: 20:40 -something like that, where there is very close interaction. SW: 20:43 Yeah. I saw that that in Columbia, yeah, but that was different. IG: 20:47 Yeah. SW: 20:47 But the but the thing is actually the movie that I showed you at Dr Vasilew's house, I am playing ball with his son. He is like, a five-year-old son, or something, six-year-old. You know, you just felt like, all of a sudden, my dysfunctional family that I grew up with became a functional, welcoming family at this college. It was really- IG: 21:09 It is wonderful. SW: 21:10 -totally different experience. Yeah, I do not know if I did not get that feeling when I was there and October, but I mean, it is only there for a day there, and it seemed much bigger. IG: 21:21 Did your parents visit you? Or did you visit them during your years at [crosstalk] SW: 21:28 My parents, my parents split. My mother said she was [inaudible] She always told me she was going to wait until I graduate high school. Oh, she should not have, but she did, because my father was a little bit nuts, but uh, but um, but they did. But actually, my father and sister came up with me when I went to college in July. I am trying to think how we got up there. We must have taken the Greyhound bus and Port Authority. That is how we got up there. They came up there, and then right across Vestal Parkway, there was a hotel, which is nothing, and then, but they were there for days. So they came up there. My father was not there again. He actually died the following year. I came home, I actually found his body in the bathroom. So, because he was living alone and my mother was living alone, they split. So I came home. I remember, I know why I came home, because I was campaigning for Robert Kennedy for Senate. So I came home in the in October. That was the end of October. Election Day was November, something November 3. And my father died November 1, so he wanted me to stay in his apartment, but I would not, and I came there, and I have had him dead in the floor. So that is sort of guilt. My mother did visit me, actually. She came up a few times, and I would, I would come back here. I would take the train and I came back here. So I would, I would, you know, stay by my mother's place or friends. So I would come. IG: 23:11 Hello. SW: 23:13 Hi, Mary. I am being interviewed. IG: 23:19 Yeah SW: 23:20 I am famous. IG: 23:22 So, I mean, I think I know the answer, but tell us how you-you felt about the Vietnam War at that time. SW: 23:33 Okay. I was against it. There are many, many reasons why somehow was selfish. I mean, we had the draft so that the-the (19)60s are often romanticized by the music and, you know, free love and all that, but there was a pervasive anxiety, because, you are killed. What do you do? You go to jail, go to Canada, maybe never come back. You go in and who knows what is going to happen to you. So there were many reasons why I was against at first, I read a lot and just seemed stupid. I mean, the one seemed stupid, it was no reason for it later on. I mean, if you saw the series on TV, I mean, they lied to us, but it was obvious then that they lied. And you could see, well, I could tell that there was, I can tell the guy's name because I did not like him, Irwin Romana. He was a student up there, and his family had money, so he hired a draft lawyer. So if you had money, you could manipulate the system. I remember his initial. He told me the initial. I said, you have a lawyer. And I remember. This conversation. He said, Yeah, is it expensive? He said, Well, the first visit is $1,000 you know, that was more than college for me for four years. So, but anyway, so it was unfair, it did and it was scary, and there was no justification for it. So, and we studied. I do not know if you, I do not know. Do you have any economic background? IG: 25:29 Well, I have read. SW: 25:30 Okay, so you see if we soon. You know the Mont Pèlerin Society, the what Pèlerin Society? You know the Mont Pèlerin Society? Okay, well, just go into this, because I was [crosstalk] okay. So-so at the end of World War Two, I think Mont Pèlerin was (19)46 I think you remember, yeah, so at the end of World War Two, there were a group of economists who were shocked at what happened with strong centralized government. I mean, in Germany, the strong centralized government gave us, obviously, Nazis. And strong centralized government in Italy was Mussolini, the strong centralized government in Russia was Stalin, and the strong centralized government in Japan was Tojo, Hirohito. And the strong centralized government in the US was created by the New Deal and Franklin Roosevelt. There was big difference between the New Deal and fascism, but it was a strong central government, so they were frightened as to what was going to happen now, as Europe is about to be rebuilt, and how do we deal with the reemergence of strong central governments, how do we fight against it? So they had this meeting in Mont Pèlerin. It was in Switzerland. I think I do not remember you remember more better, more than I do, but and they discussed how to get rid of it. And of course, at that time, the only two strong central governments, was America based on capitalism and the Soviet Union. So they were petrified of the Soviet Union and communism, and they wanted America to become more capitalistic, and they wanted to get rid of a lot of the New Deal elements, which was strong centralized government like Social Security and TVA and all the things that Roosevelt did that they just did not want it so but the big fear was the Soviet Union and communism. And out of that, they broke their promise to, you know, to Ho Chi Minh, that Roosevelt made, that if you help, you will help you fight the Japanese and everything else, because, first of all, died and so anyway, so I was familiar with all that. So that that because I studied economics, and I could tell the teacher that taught it to me, Dr Melville, he was a professor at Harpur College, and they really went into things that, I do not know if they go into it now, but do they teach about the Mont Pèlerin now, I do not know. IG: 25:42 Yes, absolutely. Third speaker: 28:04 I am sure they do. SW: 28:05 Yeah, but so-so-so I was, there were many reasons where I was against Vietnam. So there was a selfish reason the draft, there was the pervasive anxiety that, as time went on, all my friends felt, and we had Dylan playing for the dorms. I mean, I remember, but that was nice and-and we had, you know, lots of sex and other things that were fun, but there was a pervasive anxiety that we were always, you were scared. So since I was against it scary, very scary time. And then we had friends who were involved in the Civil Rights Movement, that there were people from, I guess you know that I think one was not the kids killed going down to one of the marches. I think, I think in (19)65 and I was a sophomore, I think, I think one of the students was killed down south. I did not get the only March I went on South was I went to DC, but I did not, I did not go to the I did not go all the way down south, but I think one of the kids that went down, they got hurt and killed. So there was the Civil Rights Movement. Then scary. IG: 29:16 When, when did you kind of become open to politics and the, you know, the American, American scene, and so engaged, was it because of your of the threat of being enlisted in the in the war, or what made you so alive to the political scene? SW: 29:41 Well, part of it was, we all, were- IG: 29:43 You all were- SW: 29:44 Yeah, I mean, it was, it was not there. Was this was not the this was the small group, maybe a small group joined SDS. That was not the only thing that was there. There was- IG: 29:54 I mean, did it, did it happen on campus, or did it happen before coming? Your Harpur college- SW: 30:00 I think it really evolved. It really got strong on campus. Yeah, not before first of before I was on campus, there was a lot of promise with Kennedy and the I did not know that he actually but he actually did not get I did not know that that, but no in high school, I mean, Kennedy was elected in November (19)60 I was in high school, and he was not killed until I was in college. And he was very popular with young people. One of the things I am giving you that Kennedy book I got the Hobb Bookstore, yeah, extremely popular. He was young. He was funny. And, you know, you got us, there was Bay of Pigs, and he admitted it was his fault. You know, he seemed, you know, almost like truancy. The buck stops here. I mean, he seemed honest so, and he said, I am a liberal and proud of it when people do not say that anymore. So, so through my high school years, when, before I went to college, I mean, I was really, you know, I was proud to be an American. Still, I am still thinking America is best country, you know, it is just that we have to do something about it. IG: 31:15 Right. SW: 31:15 But-but I was really felt the American pride. And then was after he was killed, the things started, you know, then, you know, it just like, like, shocked when he was killed, the chain, it changed a lot. And when Johnson came in, because we, you know, there were these theories, was he involved? And I am sure he was not, but, but then things started to jail. So Harpur College really happened. IG: 31:47 So tell us what your involvement in student activism was like, student protest or activism, and what that that scene was [crosstalk] SW: 31:56 Okay. So when it was still a very small college where in November (19)63 when he was killed. And through my through my years, there was that. There was not, if these other colleges did not exist, even when I graduated, there was no it was still small. It was bigger, but still small. And everyone, and everyone I knew was involved, it was not unique. It was not like the young democrats and young republicans, and they may have been stuff like that, but, you know, it was more focused. There was a group really focused on the Martin Luther King and on the south and, you know, and I remember, like we talked about, we talked we mentioned this, this, this country as good as it is, was a country where half of the country fought for the right of one human being to own another. Civil War was it was a war where someone fought for the right to own another person. So he was not with that, and obviously it was a long way uphill. So, so there was, there was, to some extent, there was separate. The SDS was both, was both was divert for a minute. One of the things that SDS fought for was ending the student curfew. You know about the student curfew? IG: 33:22 Yes, that is another thing that I will- SW: 33:24 That was one of the, one of the first things, the first time I went to a meeting, which was in the old student center under the Esplanade, one of the first things they talked about was the curfew. Because if you were a female, you had to have you did not get a key. They locked the door. I do not remember what time it was during the week. It was one certain time, and then then on the Friday night and Saturday night, it was a little bit later, but it was still they locked it. Now they did not lock my door, only the woman's dorm. So SDS, one of the first things that we did was to fight against the curfew. When we had petitions, we sent it around. These the mailboxes were. They were not in the student center. There was a building, so I do not remember what the mailboxes were. I remember I was box 38 Harpur College, but I do not remember where they were. You used to there was a, I think was a combination. I do not remember, but they would, we would stuff these petitions in the mailbox that in the curfew that was when big things that SDS did was fight for that. Because I remember I went out with this girl, and we got back late, and she was locked out and she was suspended, and nothing happened to me. Nothing. I mean, I nothing happened to me. Yeah, we felt horrible. IG: 34:48 It is. SW: 34:50 I felt horrible. I mean, we did not go to bed together. We just-just thought we would just, there was this hill that led to the gym. The gym was down here with the students was here; it was like a hill, and it was sitting on the hill and talking just and we went back and it was locked. IG: 35:07 Yeah. SW: 35:09 Now if you but if you were 21 you got a key. So if you were, like a junior or senior, and you were 21 years old, you did not have the curfew for a female. So-so-so that was one of the things we did. IG: 35:22 For a woman, for female and-and [crosstalk] SW: 35:25 Men did not need a key. I mean, there was no [crosstalk] IG: 35:27 Female after 21 they did not need a key. SW: 35:30 They did not need the kid. No, they got a key. I am sorry they did not get locked out. In other words, you could not get into the dorm after they locked unless you had a key. Was a little, you know, [inaudible] regular key. Yeah, so, but you got the key if you were 21 so, um, but you could drink when you were 18. So you get drunk. Mr. Curfew, get suspended. So, but you could not vote. Can vote in 21, but anyway, so that was one of the things that they were for. But then we talked about the war, the draft, one of the things that we did in, I forget which year it was, we had an intense debate about the Selective Service Exam. You are familiar with that? IG: 36:21 I do not think so. SW: 36:22 Okay, I forget when, what year was, when I was a sophomore or junior. I Think, I think Junior, it does not really matter. But Johnson, if you were in college, you were deferred from the draft, you had to register when you were 18 with your local board, and then if you were in school, you had what was known as a 2s which was a student deferment. But what Johnson did was, what was have a test, because he said that they wanted more manpower in the army, they wanted less student deferments, so they-they gave a test in the spring of the academic year, and the test was to select an exam just the general like, like a College Board test, like ETs and-and the test was being given in the gym, and there was only one gym, and you went down this, the main road of down this hill, and to the right there was a gym. And in the gym, they set up chairs, and they had this exam. So we were debated. We were against the exam, but then some of us said, “Well, look, you know, it is fine to be against the exam and not take it,” but what if they actually use this exam for the student deferment would be deprived if we, if we prevented other students from taking it, would we be giving them a ticket to Vietnam, getting rid of the 2s so they were back and forth, and anyway, it went the way the pro- We decided to protest it anyway and tell people not to take it. I did not take it. I did not take the test, but that was the decision I made for myself, but we wanted to make the decision for everyone else, so that was the debate. And debate was that we were going to make the decision for everyone else, not let them take it. But we never did that. But I remember we wanted to do that, but we did not. so. So it was not the homework. It was not, you know, everyone did not agree with every you know, it was not like- IG: 38:26 How many were you? How many were you in the SDS? SW: 38:32 Not a lot. IG: 38:34 100? SW: 38:35 No-no-no. Not the whole, the whole, no, 40, 50, maybe less, maybe less. We did not come to we did not come to meetings. Some people signed up. But-one of the reasons I signed up, there was a very attractive girl who said, you should because I was active. I mean, I did make my political views known. This is very attractive girl who came up to me says, Why did not you, why do not you go to an SDS meeting? And that is why I went for the first one. IG: 39:16 Well, it is a good enough reason. SW: 39:19 Yeah, but-but, I mean, most meetings, then they are not that many people. It would be, I mean, there may be 50 total in the whole thing, but there were, you know, maybe 10, 20, would come, maybe 10 would come. But we were active, like we got these petitions for the for the-in the curfew, we tried to block the-the Selective Service Exam, we-we put up the posters. Did you ever see the poster? Girls say yes, the boys who say no. IG: 39:59 No-no. That is, that is funny. So there were, were they? Were there females in SDS? SW: 40:07 Of course. IG: 40:08 Of course, yes. SW: 40:09 Yeah-yeah-yeah. IG: 40:15 Very funny. SW: 40:15 Sponsored there by the protest against the army. We put them up in dormitories. And we actually encouraged, for selfish region- reasons, also, we actually encouraged women to, you know, support the anti-war movement by, you know, free love, just-just, you know, resist the draft, go to go to a protest, and we will get sex. I am not kidding. That is, that was one of the things we talked about, you know, just-just doing that. There was no aids, there was none of that stuff there. IG: 40:53 Or it was not known about. SW: 40:54 It was known about, I do not think there was, was there back in the (19)60s. No, I do not know. It does not really matter, but that is what happened. So, you know, experimented. I mean, we were not the same, like the SDS started in Wisconsin with the Port Huron manifesto statement, you know. IG: 41:15 How were you different? SW: 41:17 Because we were not really part of, like, like a fraternity, like a national group, and we did not really get involved with them. IG: 41:23 Right. SW: 41:24 You know, there was not like a, it was not the it was not a unified thing. It was not like a, was not like the Democratic party with a Democratic National Committee. There was the Port Huron statement, and they probably did have involvement at Columbia, where they had the student strikes. CCNY had student strikes in the in the Lewisohn Stadium, I think was called [crosstalk]But we were a very small school and-and we did not, we did not have much to do with any national, any other-other SDS. We were basically contained. IG: 42:00 But you got your messages. SW: 42:03 Yeah. IG: 42:03 Platform- SW: 42:04 Oh yeah, oh yeah. No, we did. We did communicate, yeah. We did communicate it, but we did not get Yeah. IG: 42:08 And how did you communicate with them? With-with-with central [crosstalk] SW: 42:15 Yeah-yeah, no. IG: 42:16 So what was [crosstalk] SW: 42:19 We got brochures from them. I remember getting box, a box of brochures. We got a box of those posters girls, you know, things like that. IG: 42:27 That is interesting. SW: 42:28 -to put up on the wall. IG: 42:31 So we touched on this a little describe to me what your- the social scene was at Harpur College. Was it a party school? What is it? What did it have a reputation of being a party school at the time? SW: 42:46 No, did not. IG: 42:46 It did not. SW: 42:47 It was and it was serious. It was serious. Was serious, but it was fun. there- was it was fun. It was not fun because we know it got drunk or anything like that. First of all, you only have to be 18 to drink, so it was no big deal. I mean, you know, I drank when I could get a drink when I graduated high school, but legally, no bar. I mean, it is, you know, there was a we did not get drunk when, I guess we did sometimes, but it was not, it was not the big thing. No, it was not, was not the party school. We had fun. We had, we had, I remember seeing the Beach Boys at was not there. We went up. I remember a group of us went up to Ithaca, the Cornell, The Beach Boys performed. I remember seeing the [inaudible] Erin Quartet. IG: 42:56 Yeah, Oh, yes, they are still around. SW: 43:35 They are? Third speaker 43:36 I have a question, what were you doing? Like, other than attending classes, like when you are not going to school, or during the weekend? What were the like- Some of the activities? IG: 43:36 Yes. SW: 43:36 They were in residence, I think so, yeah, in Binghamton. So they- we- I remember seeing the great, great they had great entertainment that we saw. What is his name, if you have Max Morath. He did Ragtime. Did a show there. It was very crowded. Did that. It was, it was a lot of fun, you know, this, you know, other than the pervasive fear that we had with the war lingering over us when we graduated, it was, it was a lot of fun. There was, there was, you know, no, it was not, was not the party school. No serious students. We took academia seriously. We took politics seriously, and close relationships. And there was, there was, like, free love, but, you know, but that was pervasive. I think then, maybe now too, I do not know. Well, I was on the debate team, so we traveled to various schools like you saw that thing from. Lehigh University. We traveled to New York City. We stayed at a hotel on the Grand Concourse, concourse Plaza Hotel where the Yankees stayed. We actually had the first- where they had one of the first UN meetings there at the concourse Plaza. So we traveled. So I was the debate team. I was on services for youth, where we work with poor children in Binghamton, I was in SDS. We did. We went with the brochures rallies. We encouraged people to protest. A group of a group of them organized a bus to the south, I did not go. I do not remember, I do not remember where the dream. I thought that someone got killed, but I am not sure it was my house, school, or someone who went along. Yeah, I did not go this. I cannot think what happened. I did go to Washington, so we sponsored that. What else did I do? I worked. I worked in the in the Music Library, Music Library. IG: 46:08 that like, what did you do? SW: 46:12 We put on music. In other words, you would sit there, like, if you were taking music appreciation, you would sit there and put on headphones [crosstalk] and Beethoven's Ninth, and then we would, I would be in the control room, and I would put on a record with Beethoven's Ninth, and I would say, plug it to seat nine, right? There was no mp3, so things like that. So I worked there, and there was a language lab. What we do? You win, and then you put on headphones and you listen to German or Russian, yeah, and you would repeat. They would say, you know, guten tag, guten tag. So some people work there, but I remember working in the music. I had another job one of the summers I was up there driving a tractor on a golf course. I got paid $8 an hour, which is a lot then. IG: 46:19 Yeah, I remember yeah music library [crosstalk] it was, it was probably a lot in in certain parts of the country. SW: 47:07 Yeah-yeah, so that is one thing [crosstalk] IG: 47:09 So were you self-sufficient, pretty much with your scholarship and the money that you earned from part time jobs? Or- SW: 47:17 Yeah-yeah. IG: 47:17 It is tremendous. SW: 47:17 Yeah. Had to be. IG: 47:17 You had to be. SW: 47:21 Yeah. Yeah. I also, once, one summer, I worked in the I came back and I mother had my mother lived in the Bronx. My father already died, and I worked in the New York Public Library, actually, oh yes, from [inadible]. You know what I found them, I could bring it down later, I found the letter that I wrote saying, I think I am going to go into politics, to the person in the library on Harpur stationary. I will give it to you. I will give with the stuff. When we are finished, I will bring it down. IG: 47:53 Yeah. Was this is [crosstalk] SW: 47:58 I never went into politics. I never did. IG: 48:00 No-no speaking about politics, was there recruitment for the war on campus? SW: 48:05 No, that is not that I remember, I- IG: 48:09 -not that you remember. So do you think that that was unusual for because of the constituency? SW: 48:16 We did not have ROTC. IG: 48:17 I see. SW: 48:18 I mean, other schools did. We did not. First of the school is too small. We never had it. We did not have France either. I mean that to their fraternities. Third speaker: 48:25 They have now. SW: 48:27 Do they do? We did not. We did not have them. We had no fraternities. We had, we had society. They had, I was not a member of it. There was a Greeks society, but it was not fraternities. I do not know what it was, because I It was not very big, it was not very popular, and I do not know anyone who was in it, so, but there was no recruitment. There was no ROTC there was [crosstalk]. Third speaker 48:28 Oh yeah. IG: 48:49 That-that answers the question. So what was residential life like? What did you do for entertainment? SW: 48:56 Well, there was, there was a TV in the lounge. There was only one TV, and it was in the lounges, black and white TV. The lounge was in the first floor. If you went into Champlain Hall, let us see. There were two dormitories that faced each other, Champlain, I think, and something else. IG: 49:15 Right. SW: 49:16 And the first semester was in the one on the left. I do not remember what a name of it was. And then the go at the-the entrance was, let us see, there was a walkway, and then the entrance was this way, perpendicular to the walkway, and go in, and you wind up in the lounge, and there was a TV there. I remember seeing Ed Sullivan seeing the Beatles. We all sat around. IG: 49:39 I remember that too. SW: 49:40 The Beatles is on the Sullivan show. Yeah, that is where we watch the Kennedy funeral, and everyone was crying. And go to the Student Center. We go to a place [inaudible], and we go to a place called Sharkies. They had something called spiedie. It was like something on a skewer. Yeah, I do not know what it was. Third speaker 50:08 They still have that. Not Sharkies I do not know but spiedies, chicken spiedies. SW: 50:09 Sharkies, yeah. I do not think it was chicken, I would not eat it now, but- Third speaker 50:16 Yeah. SW: 50:17 I do not know what it was. So we did things like that. We had these, the SDS, we had the other clubs. I mean, there was always something to do. It was always, you know, there was a theater. If you faced the student, if you went up to the main driveway, and then you went down the circular thing to the right, and the movie where you saw those me and my friend breaking into the window. There was a theater in that building, and they had entertainment there. It was, it was, was fun. I mean, it was, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun, actually. IG: 50:51 So were you in a in a kind of a circle with a lot of girls as well? It was, there, were there sort of mixing of the girls, it was everybody went out together. Or did you go out in pairs? Or, I mean, where did you go? Like [crosstalk] SW: 51:08 When you went to Shark- when you went to Sharkies, would go- IG: 51:10 Yeah. SW: 51:13 -in- IG: 51:13 Yeah. SW: 51:14 Boys and girls would go. IG: 51:15 Yeah. SW: 51:16 The thing with the debate society. IG: 51:19 Yeah. SW: 51:20 Boys and girls would go, there was no coed dorm. SDS, boys and girls that the video I showed you at Vasilew's House you saw female students and male students. IG: 51:28 Yeah. SW: 51:30 Kadish, if you are asking, give Kadish my name and just home Stephen Weiss and in the apartment in Vestal and the anti-war meetings. I mean, if he is still there, he will remember that. And his first wife, because he came there, he used to use the bum there, yeah, yeah. And one of his, one of his best students, was the kid running for the bus with the little stick they said, is dead now. His name was David Lorden, remember the name? You mentioned that to Mr. Katie, Professor Katie, she remember him too, as we used to go, yeah. But then, no, that was coed. We used to do things. You know, sometimes we students was, I forgot the name of it. That is my senior moment with the kids what I said was- IG: 52:23 Well, how did the faculty regard your you know, social interactions your dating. Do they get involved in it? I mean, or rather the supervisors, were they kind of scrutinizing what you were doing after- SW: 52:42 What surprises? IG: 52:44 Did not you have RA resident assistance or any kind of supervision in your dorms? Because obviously there was somebody monitoring your comings and goings with the curfew, right? SW: 52:58 But we did not have a curfew. IG: 52:59 You did not have a curfew, but the girls did. SW: 53:01 Yeah, I do not know. I do not I have no idea what was in the girls, but in the men, let me just think we did. I am sorry. Third speaker: 53:09 Not curfew, but maybe like rules, that- SW: 53:12 There were rules, but let me just think there was a there was a woman almost like a den mother for the Cub Scouts. There was no there was an older woman who I do not know what her involvement was, I mean, do you know what I am talking about? There was some, there was a woman who was like, part of out from Champlain. She was, she was like the den mother- IG: 53:35 Maybe she was- SW: 53:36 -for Champlain. And this other dorm that was quite opposite, this walkway, no Champlain would be here. This other dorm was here, and the left one, I am indicating left and the right, lawyer talk, indicating, but uh, and there was this woman, no, she was not a resident assistant. She was employed, I guess, by Harpur. But I do not remember they may have been. I do not remember what you would call I know RAs, because my four kids went to colleges and they were RAS but I do not remember that at Harpur. That does not mean they were not. IG: 54:08 I mean, I am I see a little bit of a discrepancy here, because on the one hand, you talk about free love, and that must have been taking place somewhere. SW: 54:20 Right. IG: 54:20 And on the other hand, there were curfews for female students- SW: 54:24 Right-right. IG: 54:24 -and if they were just a few minutes late, they would be suspended. SW: 54:28 Right. IG: 54:29 So-so where was there- SW: 54:32 Was, there was the- IG: 54:34 -happening. SW: 54:35 There was outdoors. There was this hill- IG: 54:37 Yeah. SW: 54:37 -that led down, I remember this hill that that went from where the dorms were down to the- IG: 54:44 Right. SW: 54:44 -gym, and lots of kids hung out there. IG: 54:46 Yeah. SW: 54:47 There were people with cars and doing the back seat of the car. IG: 54:52 Okay. SW: 54:57 I remember doing the back seat of a Volkswagen. IG: 54:58 Yeah. SW: 54:59 Yeah. I mean, you did what you had to do, but no, but there was- IG: 55:02 Yeah-yeah. SW: 55:07 But you could the girls could not go, wait. Oh yeah, you could wait. I am trying to think some rule that your feet had to be on the ground, wait- IG: 55:16 Yeah. SW: 55:17 -your feet had to be on the ground. [crosstalk] Or, that rings a bell. I do not remember what that was. IG: 55:22 Right, I forgot exactly, but yeah, along those lines. SW: 55:24 Yeah, you could visit, but your feet had to be on the ground. Door open [crosstalk] IG: 55:27 One-one of the you know members, well, the member of the office is sex, or had to have at least one foot on the ground. SW: 55:36 Yeah-yeah. But who would check? But then the door had to be open, so there must be somebody. IG: 55:40 Somebody could not be lying, SW: 55:41 Right. Yeah, but-but there must have been someone to check it. I mean, there must have been some walking by. IG: 55:46 Exactly-exactly [crosstalk] SW: 55:46 I do not remember who that could have been. IG: 55:48 Not hearing with that. SW: 55:49 I have no idea. I do not remember, but I am- just rang a bell about feet on the ground. I just-just thought of that right now. IG: 55:55 Yeah-yeah. I heard about that too. Third speaker: 55:58 Could you visit the girls' dorm? SW: 56:01 During the certain hours she could it was visible and that we had that feet on the ground, yeah, certain hours during the day, you could go into the other dormitory and go upstairs, they said the hours, and you could do that. There were not there was no men's room bathroom in the girls dorm, and we could not use their bathroom, and there was no girl's bathroom in the men's dorm, but you could visit. And it was said [inaudible] maybe, maybe was one to four or something on certain days, on the weekend. I do not remember what it was, but yeah, you could, and the door had to be opened. And the rule was both feet or one foot on the ground with the door open. Remember that. But when you want to have sex, you have sex, you find a place to do it. IG: 56:47 Yeah. SW: 56:47 I mean that there is no- IG: 56:48 Do you think that expectations about sex and marriage were changing very much then that, you know, the free love, of course, does not equate, you know, the expectation is that it, it will not necessarily lead to marriage. So- SW: 57:08 Just as no, there was no reason not to enjoy that feeling. IG: 57:12 Yeah. SW: 57:12 Just because you are not going to get married [crosstalk] or you are going to go your way. IG: 57:15 I am just sort of trying to get [crosstalk] SW: 57:21 People expected to get married. Yeah, I expected to get married someday. The girls that I knew expected to get married, not necessarily to me. I do not know any girl back then who wanted to marry me. Now, whoever would ever, ever think of marrying someone like me? I do not think I was- IG: 57:36 What were you like back then? SW: 57:38 I remember doc- I remember Dr Vasilew said-said to me personally. He said a girl would probably think twice because of your childhood, you know, like him broken home and you do not like to visit [inaudible], you know, he said that probably would have an effect on how, how I would relate to a partner, the type of relationship. He actually said that to me. Dr. Vasilew, I remember it very clearly, so- IG: 58:11 That is very prescient of him, you know, because people were not necessarily talking like that back then. SW: 58:16 Oh, he said that to me. Oh, yeah, he did. Meanwhile, I have been married at the same woman since 1974 it can look very well, no, that is something, you know there, but, um, yeah, but people expected to get married, but not necessarily to the people that they went to bed with then, and also people disappeared. now they went, well, they went a different way. This is an out of town college with a trimester program where people, you know, I, there was one time I went three semesters and took off a semester. I mean, you know, then someone else would not be there, and then when it come back a semester later. IG: 58:56 Right. SW: 58:56 And then, you know, we did not have emails. I lost contact with a lot of people because there was no email. You did not do an email, if you did not write a letter. I have letters upstairs that I wrote to some people, but when I left Binghamton, I mean, I could not email, you know, my old roommate, my kids, they still email roommates, they email friends from high school. And I could not, and we did not do that. So you lost contact. If you did not write a long hand letter, that was it, and you did not call, because it is not, you know, unlimited, you know, calls on the cell phone. IG: 59:33 So how did you stay in touch, because clearly you-you know the face of some of your classmates. SW: 59:40 The only reason I know faces, I looked them up on the on the Binghamton. I learned that, well, I learned that Harvey Bournfield died. Who was he was the one in the video, because I tried to email him. I kind of classmates.com recently, five years ago, and I remember, and I. And then I-I had a phone number, I called him and actually got his son, and I found out that I had missed him by a year, and he died of cancer. So I sent his son a copy of that video. I said, I have a video of your father you may want to see, because he was the one climbing through the window. So, you know, I said that to me, really, he liked that so, but that is that I learned about Dave Lawton, who I was on the debate team and knew Dr Kadesh. I found that he died because I checked him on the alumni page. I checked names before the reunion, before the October. That is the only reason I know otherwise I will not know, yeah, and we did not keep touch. No. IG: 59:45 Were you? You said that you know Binghamton or Harpur College was felt like a family that you had not had with your own- SW: 1:00:50 To me, not necessarily to people who did have a family. It is all subjective. IG: 1:00:56 Of course, we are talking about your experience. So were you very saddened when you graduated and you had to leave this family? SW: 1:01:05 No, that is a very interesting question. I actually thought about that recently, because I was talking to my wife about that I want before we went back to that reunion. I wondered why I was not. IG: 1:01:19 Yeah. SW: 1:01:20 I mean, I really wondered about myself, why? Why was not I sad about leaving like, like my old my last roommate was a fellow by the name of Ira Mintzer. And we were close. We were good friends. We went on double date, double dates together. We had an apartment in Vestal near the Vestal High School. And, you know, I had left in the I left Binghamton, and that was it. No contact, no letters. You want to hear an interesting story about Ira Mintzer. IG: 1:01:20 Yes. SW: 1:01:23 So I am on Facebook, so I searched for some names. I come across Ira Mintzer. I remember he wanted to be a doctor. So Ira Mintzer doctor in Cambridge, Massachusetts. So I contacted him, because my old roommate, and two years ago, my wife and I were going up to Boston, so I said, “We are coming up to Boston.” He had me at his house for dinner, and his wife- IG: 1:02:24 How nice! SW: 1:02:25 -had not seen him since 1967 this was two years ago, since 2015 and got along as if, as if, we just graduated. So it is Facebook. IG: 1:02:44 You probably felt connected with him. SW: 1:02:47 Yeah, no. Now we come with now we write each other. I mean, on Facebook, we do not, we do not write. But now you do not have to send letter. You do not the call. I mean, you just there. It is, yeah, indicating with my fingers, yeah, no. So. IG: 1:03:00 Maybe-maybe. SW: 1:03:02 I do not know why I did not feel that, but other people, other people would have cried graduation. I maybe it is a defect in my personality. IG: 1:03:10 No, maybe it gave you what you needed, and that was it. SW: 1:03:13 Yeah, it was time to was time to move on. IG: 1:03:16 Time to go. SW: 1:03:17 Well, it is time to move on. I moved. I guess that is good. Maybe, you know, yeah, but I did, yeah, well, I do not know, but yeah, but I did not feel I felt glad to leave my home and go there. IG: 1:03:34 Yeah. SW: 1:03:35 I was happy when I was there. Other the anxiety that was pervasive in the (19)60s, and I was but I was not sad when it came time to leave. It was time to leave. IG: 1:03:45 Yeah. SW: 1:03:46 I did keep in touch with Dr Vasilew. IG: 1:03:48 Oh. SW: 1:03:50 By-by letter, we wrote each other. I would write him, and he would write me, not frequently, maybe a few times a year, but we did. But he was more than a pro- he was my coach and debating, so we would travel together the debate team. You saw that article which mentioned the debate team was not at large. It was eight of us, and I do not remember, but it was not large, so we were close group also. And you know, it was also like a cub master, and I was friends with his kid. I was friends with his kids, but when we went there, we played with his kids ball. He had three kids, daughter and two sons. IG: 1:04:32 When you look back on this experience at Harpur College, what do you think you know? How do you think it changed you? What did it give you? You said [crosstalk] SW: 1:04:46 Liberal arts education, yeah, and nothing with the clubs or anything else. The edge, I felt like the classes were small. We did not have any. There was one hall. All that looked like a lecture hall, and that was across the street from across the lawn, from the library. There was a new building, which, I mean, I think was science or something. I remember what it was, and that had a lecture hall, and I remember taking Psychology 101, and that was a lecture hall. Even then there was, was not a lot of students. Every other class I had was in the classroom not much bigger than the classroom I had in high school, elementary school, which was, you know, what, was not big. So we were really, I mean, it was really an intimate educational environment, you know, what, the way you picture something in the in the Aristotle or the Socrates, and, you know, he really, it was really back and forth. You know, when we this, when Dr. Carlip, discussed the Mont Pèlerin Society, when we really discussed it. Remember discussing, well, the-the outcome of that was Reagan and taking back, undoing the New Deal, but really with their motives. And I remember debating it, their motives, to some extent, were good motives, because they were afraid of central government, the fascism and everything else that came with it. And I remember debating it back and forth, maybe like 15 of us in the class and Dr. Carlip, and every once in a while, he would have a sofa to his house for a class. So these were not big classes. So it was, I think I really learned a lot. I mean, my notebook, I used to, I used to type my notes, and it was just, was just, I mean, I really felt I got an unbelievable education. I mean, I remember just, I just remember things that these professors said I. I remember my English. I remember my English professor- IG: 1:06:45 For example, give us, give us some, you know, memorable things that they have told you that have influenced your thinking. SW: 1:06:52 Okay. they want my-my English, one of my English professors who had us to read The Rubaiyat [Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám]. So, I mean, I read that to my kids when they were young. the moving finger writes. You know that right? You know the Rubaiyat so. So just remember, I remember, I am saying "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit ". Can call it back the cancel half a line or your tears wash out of it. I just remember standing up there. I remember, remember how that influenced a young student, you know, did? I am a devout atheist. Let me enforce that. So just and Dr. Melville [Robert Melville], who he was an advisor to the House Committee on sales and use tax. So in my because of that, just because of him, yeah, I am just getting a notebook because of Dr. Melville and when they read, I read the bill, it was just a bill. But this was the bill back then, HR, 11, 798, he was the, he was the member of Congress in Binghamton. IG: 1:08:22 Oh, wow. SW: 1:08:23 And since Dr. Melville was involved in that, I mean, I wanted to research it, so I read it on my own, because, because of him, so, you know, and I wrote a paper about it. I think that is my paper. I am not sure. Is that about the sales, news, tax- IG: 1:08:47 -introduction, apology and justification? Is that it? SW: 1:08:51 Oh, I know what that was. Yeah, about economics. I do not remember. IG: 1:08:57 Yeah-yeah, theory and you agree beginning. SW: 1:09:03 But you could see what the type of student there was by looking at my notebook. I mean, there is my notes-notes. I mean, I typed everything, but I really like it really felt like, like a partnership. Let us pull my rope. I mean, I really, I really felt like there was a partnership between the students and the professors in the academic environment that we learned from each other. I said it was almost like the what you would think the Greek learning system was. So that is what, that is what I got out of it. I do not know if they do that now, I think the classes are bigger now, yeah, and the money's cut back now. I mean, education was still highly valued then by our society. Third speaker 1:09:50 Oh, graduate level, you get that? SW: 1:09:53 I am sure you do. Third speaker: 1:09:54 But undergraduate level , you do not. SW: 1:09:56 Oh, we got it. My undergraduate level, we got small class. Is, we delved into things deeply. We debated them. Third speaker: 1:10:04 You describe like, what you describe here sounds like, you know, graduate [crosstalk] IG: 1:10:12 Well or a very, you know, exclusive private college, right? SW: 1:10:18 It was like that. It was free. It was great. I do not believe I did all this. I am looking at these notes. I must have lunatic. I must have been very compulsive. My God. Third speaker: 1:10:18 Yeah. IG: 1:10:34 So how do you think that the college prepared you for your future life, what, what imprint did it leave on you? What, you know, in a quality of kind of thinking, or how did it- SW: 1:10:50 I think it made me help, make me a better human being. When my first job as a lawyer was legal aid, criminal, you know, I did not, was not there for the big bucks or anything I really want. I mean, that is the only job I applied for. That is the only thing I wanted to do. So, I do not know. I think it helped with everything. I think it was, it even helped me be a better husband and parent. I mean my kids. I mean I am proud of them. That is my four kids up there, but I mean they at Thanksgiving. I mean, we all went around to say what we are thankful for. We are all eight. We are all atheists, but we went around, but one of them things, Alex said, my youngest son, he said, I am thankful for a close knit, happy family. that was just, I mean, you know, just. And one of the things I remember, one of the things I envied of Dr. Vasilew, was because I came from a broken home, was to see him and his family when he took a sit into the to the house and so, so I think it helped me be, you know, and be a better lawyer, too. I think that the more liberal your education, the better you could be at whatever you do, whether you are a doctor or lawyer. So it helped me, you know, with the assigned counsel, because you were assigned as legal aid to defend people, I just, you know, I understood that, but for the grace of God, no, I so. So, yeah, I think, I think the education I got there really carried me far. IG: 1:12:34 So any thoughts for the future of how, of what elements, what ingredients are most essential for the kind of educational experience that you were provided? SW: 1:12:47 I think the most important thing, I disagree with what Obama talked about, and I supported Obama at both times, but when he talked about, you know, maybe not everyone, maybe we should have so much of a liberal arts education, but should prepare people for jobs and things like they said that. IG: 1:13:05 Yeah. SW: 1:13:06 I disagree. I think, I think, if you an educated society is the best guarantee of freedom of-of, you know, universal health care, of opportunity and-and that is a liberal arts education. You have to literature, math, science, history, economics. Mont Pèlerin, you went to study that, unless you went to economics. But that is really, that is really a philosophical Ryan [Paul Ryan], the House of Speaker is a Mont Pèlerin type person, right? I mean, he really believes that the government has no business in Social Security or Medicare or Medicaid. Well, that is right out of Mont Pèlerin's first year away from the New Deal or away from Nazism or away from the central government. So I think that a well-educated society, liberal arts is the most important thing. I think everyone should have liberal arts education. I mean, I do not know how we can do that. You know, Bernie Sanders said education for all, but the society, I do not think, is, is moving away from it. IG: 1:14:19 Right. SW: 1:14:19 You know, the-the thing that, and a non-educated society is more susceptible to fear. I mean, when you are, you know, if you are educated, then, then you-you can, you could, like we did in the classes in college, you know, you could look at something and ask, this, is this makes sense? Like Vietnam? Does this make sense? Does it make sense to go to war when, when a group of fanatics bomb the World Trade Center? Does it make more sense to have police work and deal with them and fight them, and that is and that is not a war, you know? Yeah, you use a reason, but you but, but that is the luxury of an. Educated person, but, but, but we should recognize that it is in our interest to have our neighbors educated, otherwise our neighbors will come at us with the pitchforks. You know, the educated one is not because, so it is a selfish reason, just like, Why was I against the war in Vietnam? Or part of it was altruistic, but part of it was selfish, so, but there is nothing wrong with having a selfish component, because we are people, so that is fine. So that is what I that is what I think, you know, and we have to invest more, but we are not going in that direction. I just told my son when he was here for Thanksgiving, I said, Why do not you go into politics? My youngest son- IG: 1:15:39 But you know, going to Harpur College at the time that you did, you know, during the mid (19)60s, when the country was really going through cataclysmic changes, you know, maybe intensified your educational experience. SW: 1:15:56 Of course it did. Yeah, we were forced to be involved. Well, part of it was the Selective Service system. You were forced. You could not-not be involved. You could choose not to take the exam in the gym, but you were involved with the ticket or not. You know, it is like Moby Dick in the whale. You know, you can decide to throw a spear into Moby Dick or not. The whale is going to be there. It is there. So, you know, we were involved with the you could not-not be involved. You know, we got those develops like I am going to give you from the draft, but we were involved, the civil rights movement. We were involved. There were people getting angry. Out of out of SDS, came the Black Panthers, yeah, [inaudible] the SDS, you know, so you we were involved, and there was nowhere not to be. There was areas of Binghamton where you would be afraid to walk because of blacks, and there were other bars. There was a bar that I remember, there was a street that was parallel to Vestal Parkway, where the we passed by, where the Dean's house was, and there is still a lot of house there the dean. IG: 1:16:59 I think so [crosstalk] SW: 1:17:01 Continued down all the way, almost like Binghamton, before the bridges, there was like a bar, was a black bar, and they used to charge what was known as white tax for the beer. So like, if you were a black person, you paid x for the beer, and if you were a white kid like me, you would pay 2x for the beer. IG: 1:17:18 Yeah, that is like the sub the Soviet Union used to have a dual- SW: 1:17:23 Yeah, the friendship currents, yeah. I remember that, yeah. I remember the [inaudible] Street and going, yeah-yeah. Third speaker: 1:17:30 How was the campus then, like, were there any black students in the campus? Like- SW: 1:17:38 Very, actually, I only remember one. He was next. He was a- an exchange student from Kenya. Third speaker: 1:17:48 Africa, not America. SW: 1:17:49 Not an American. Like, no, I do not remember. Third speaker: 1:17:52 Not even one? SW: 1:17:52 I do not remember. I do not remember one look at the yearbook from (19)67 and (19)66 it is in the-the Alumni Center. I do not think, yeah, I do not, I do not remember any black students. No. IG: 1:18:03 Most of the students were from New York City, from Long Island. SW: 1:18:06 New York City and Long Island, yeah, and- Third speaker: 1:18:09 Like, when you compare boys versus girls, like, majority of them like boys, right? Not many women? SW: 1:18:18 No, there were a lot of girls there, you know? I mean, I did not seem like I was, I mean, I went Brooklyn Tech, where I went to high school as an old boy school. So it was so refreshing, because it was coed, yeah, but I did not feel that, that, that we outnumbered them by any significant amount, that would no there may have been, but I do not I in my subjective memory. No. Third speaker 1:18:19 No, yeah, I am asking how you remember. SW: 1:18:34 Yeah, no, I do not, I do not remember it being overwhelmingly male. No. SDS had a lot of SDS had a lot of girls in it. Actually, that was an attraction, but they had a lot of girls, and they were not subject to the draft, but there were a lot of girls there. IG: 1:19:06 So did you have any interaction with the, with, with, you know, the rest of the population in Binghamton? I mean- SW: 1:19:16 Services for Youth. IG: 1:19:17 Yeah-yeah, that is right, of course. SW: 1:19:20 I do not remember how the kids got involved with us. I remember there was a-a park. If you went into Binghamton, we took him to a park. there was a zoo in the park, and you went into Binghamton and went to the right, up this little hill, there was some park there. And in the park, there was a zoo. Yeah, Ross Park. IG: 1:19:20 It still exist. SW: 1:19:39 Yeah. I remember taking kids there. Yes, we were involved in them, but I do not remember where the kids came from. I do not remember, but yes, we were involved. And not all of the faculties supported the anti-war group, Kadish went to my apartment to a rally. Vasilew, who I, who I liked a lot, who was the one that gave me my comment that a girl would think twice before marrying someone like you, which is true. I understand that. I mean, you know, like saying, if a plate is broken, you can glue it together, but the cracks still there. You know, so, but anyways, but he, I remember, you know, as I remember talking about the draft, and he said, he-he actually, he had two sides to him. First, he has he, he thought that the draft was appropriate. He was liberal, and on the other hand, he was not sure if we should have gotten involved in World War Two. I remember him saying that. So, which is fine, because there is no right answer. You know, it is unlike you know, two and two and was, what is the answer? There is no right answer. IG: 1:19:40 There is no right answer. SW: 1:21:02 No there are right questions. And then you think about the answers. So, I mean, back then, I probably was not so kind as to his response, because I thought, you know, for World War Two, we were the good guys, and to Vietnam, we had no business being there. And it is black and white. And it was not until I became more mature that I realized there is no right answer, and Vietnam is definitely wrong. And should we get involved too? Well, I still think we should have but, but there is no right answer. IG: 1:21:28 So it, you know, again, looking back, do you think that this was among your happy the happy period? Speaker 1 1:21:46 Yes, absolutely, I am basically, I basically became a happy person when I left home. I mean, I have a mean, that is my personality. I mean, I just my wife sometimes calls me the happy idiot. I am not kidding. No, I get happy sometimes for no reason. I mean, I because I am lucky. I mean, life has been good to me. I mean, but, but that was definitely that there was a change. It was a change for me from a miserable childhood up until I left, to-to not, you know, not being subject to that misery. So, yeah, it was definitely very happy period. IG: 1:22:25 So you never really returned to your family. SW: 1:22:30 Well, my parents- IG: 1:22:30 Your parents were split up. SW: 1:22:32 They split. [crosstalk] My mother waited until I graduated high school, and then then my father moved to, uh, an apartment in also in Flush, in Flushing off Main Street. And my mother moved to place in the Bronx called Riverdale. And-and so they lived, you know, apart. And so no, there was no home to come to. So and then I said, I tried to avoid this. I mean, I visited my father, I thought I could stand him. And as I told you, the one time that he asked me to visit him, and I said no, and then the next day I came and he was dead. So then the guilt that I felt was, you know, it took me a long time to get over that, I know. Very nice. IG: 1:23:11 Yeah, I could imagine. SW: 1:23:12 Because I felt, well, what if I have been there, then I would call a doctor or something, you know, but it was no.t IG: 1:23:18 Yeah. SW: 1:23:18 And he had been dead already he was lying in the bathroom. IG: 1:23:20 Yeah. SW: 1:23:21 So, but no, the college years, it was-was turning out what happened I was happy in college, basically, other than the fear. But yes. IG: 1:23:34 So, what-what do you have any message for? You know, a future student, a future you know, listening to this tape, you know, 5-10, years from now, of how they should approach their undergraduate- SW: 1:23:50 I would say liberal arts. Take, take, take, English literature, foreign literature, world history, American history, science, just take, take as much varied material as you can. When I went to law school, all took was law, you know my friend who is now my friend again, Ira. You know, medicine, science and medicine. But in college, you could take everything, do it. You know you could, do not take pre-law and just take poli sci or pre-med and just take science, take other things, because that will make you better at everything. IG: 1:24:33 And for-for our politicians, for example, listening to this interview 5-10, years from now, do you have a message for them. SW: 1:24:41 Yes, invest in education, unless you feel that the only way you will stay in office is to have an uneducated society. But if you want to make society better, then you invest in education. You know, then you realize, look, when Obama made the statement, you did not build this. Remember, he made that statement. When he was trying to convey. And he conveyed the people who understood him, educated people that, you know, the transcontinental railway, the highways, the telephone poles, all the things that people did for next to nothing made it possible for the wealthy people to have their wealth. It did not just come out of nowhere. So wars that people fought, the good wars and the bad wars, or, you know, the infrastructure, everything that existed, that people got paid nothing, or that slaves built. So that is what he meant when he said that you did not build this. He did not mean, you know, you did not build your grocery store and it is not yours. He did not because they turned it on him, like Romney turned it on him. But an educated person would understand that and would appreciate it that if I am wealthy, I mean, that is great, but, I mean, why should not other people participate in the wealth of a nation that is wealthy? Why should it just be limited to excuse me as it could be my office? No, it is not okay. So that is what, yeah, so, so for politicians edgy, if you really believe in this country, then-then education. That is the thing to invest in the most, not take away from teachers' unions and-and get and not, you know, not have, like, charter schools, where with something, we have to compete for a good school, otherwise you are stuck. I mean, I told you my public-school education was great. I mean, I it was really good. I had good teachers who were, you know, got paid well or no standards, and were respected. They were not demonized. Like, like the governor Wisconsin demonized teachers. Of course you are going to demonize a teacher if, if the only way to keep your power is to have uneducated people, like-like, like Trump said he bragged about uneducated people voting for him he bragged about it, which is true. So that is preaching to the choir. IG: 1:27:06 Well, that is, it is preaching to the choir, of course, but other people may not be the choir listening to this. So and do you have any words for President Stinger? SW: 1:27:18 Right now? He is the president of Harpur. IG: 1:27:21 He is a president of the university. Would you like to impart any, any of your thoughts to him or a future president? SW: 1:27:32 Well, he should do his best to bring, bring back true community, learning, small classes in depth learning, having faculty and students meet in each other's places of residence, like we did at barbecues. And the barbecue is not just, you know, just eating and drinking, but the barbecue is also talking about your subject and other subjects and relating, relating economics and literature and science. I mean, when you get together to barbecue, talk about all sorts of things, I think that that is the key, and that is what made it so great. Like you said, it is like a small private college, although it was not, but that is the key. Small classes, intimate settings and the environment that encourages questioning and debate, you know, so it is not my country right or wrong, it is my country. Make it better. But you know, there is no right or wrong. You should not do it that way. And you know, your emotional baggage, you know, you know, I had a lot of emotional baggage, but when I got to college, I was able to put it in the overhead bin, in a little chair, and go about my business. So, you know, so that that is, that is the key, you know, learn to be able to the baggage away. IG: 1:28:50 Maybe it allowed you the freedom. SW: 1:28:53 Yes. IG: 1:28:53 You know, freedom from the emotional baggage. SW: 1:28:57 Yes. IG: 1:28:57 You could come back to it a different person. SW: 1:29:00 Yes, but I have a certain but, like my wife said, I am like, I am a happy idiot, and I get happy I just do, like, Vasilew was wrong. He said, You know, he thought that I would never, actually thought I would never be able to have I-I went out with a lot of girls than in life, and I did not. And I was somewhat mean. I mean, I was nice, but-but-but, you know, like, if when I was-was not interested anymore, that was it. IG: 1:29:29 Yeah. SW: 1:29:31 But, yeah, that is not the way to be. But the thing is, but I learned from it and- but then I evolved. I mean, I said when I got married, I mean, you know, I very happy with it, just he would, he did not think it would ever work, but it really did. Actually, I [inaudible], my wife and I actually visited him. IG: 1:29:52 And what did he say? Did he Did you remind him what he said? SW: 1:29:56 No, I do not talk about that. No, you know, he said, he said, "I see you are a successful lawyer." I said “Yes,” and we talked about that, okay, no-no, I was not going to. There is no reason too. No. And then they, you know, no, but that is, that is the price I would give and have other artifacts I could show you when, once we finish talking before you go. IG: 1:30:22 Well, I you know, do you have concluding, you know, thoughts, remarks, anything that you would like to explore? I think we covered a lot of ground. SW: 1:30:30 No, I think, no. I think it encouraged students, no, just encourage student involvement and student involvement in politics and make-make it known that why education is important. You kind of invest in education, small classes in education, or there is no guarantee that this country will remain a democracy. IG: 1:30:51 Yeah. SW: 1:30:52 That is not guaranteed. It is not guaranteed. IG: 1:30:54 There is no guarantee. SW: 1:30:55 No, and they could very well not. And with overreactions, with-with, you know, people like Bush taking us into Iraq and-and torture becoming a norm again. You know, Guantanamo indefinite detention when lunatic Trump becomes president. You know who, who brags about, you know, fondling women and talks about arresting his opponents and egomaniac and having these Republicans love him and the Christian right loving him. I mean, yeah, a real danger here. IG: 1:31:33 Yeah. SW: 1:31:34 And it could happen here. IG: 1:31:36 Yeah. SW: 1:31:36 And it might very well happen here. So the key is just that education to get the educated people to expand like, like, we sent people from Harpur College down to the south, as I said, I personally did not go, but I know people who did, and people from SDS went, send them out to do things. I am going to a bar association meeting with us tomorrow night. One of the things we are talking about is working with the Alabama and other bar associations to get ID cards. The voters will have trouble getting ID cards, getting photographed and paying for their ID cards so they and making sure they vote, because there is voter suppression, obviously in these states. So we are thinking as a Bar Association project, almost like a school project. IG: 1:32:19 That is wonderful. SW: 1:32:20 Yeah. So we are thinking of doing that. So we are talking about that tomorrow night, after which we are going to go to the Algonquin hotel and drink scotch. So you-you know, lawyers find that the more Scotch they drink, the more interesting other lawyers become. So-so we do that too, yeah. Yeah. So-so that is the key to get, to get them to go out. I mean, keep the have a close community, and when you are close and secure, then you could go out. IG: 1:32:50 Well, that is exactly what happened to you at the college, the close community. And once you- SW: 1:32:57 With that security. IG: 1:32:58 -security. SW: 1:32:59 Then you are able to go out when you are insecure and you look, you know, then it is hard to go forward. IG: 1:33:06 Yeah. SW: 1:33:06 But so that is what you need. And then have them go out, having to, you know, help with small things, voter ID, getting out to vote, getting people to vote, you know, they suppress it by I mean, when I go to vote, I wait. I wait for one minute. I do not wait. We have, we have, we have more voting places here than the small fee community than, you know, there they have one black communities down there. They have one book, one polling place. It is open from, you know, 9:00 am on a work day to 5:00 pm they went online for three hours. You are not going to want to do that. Well, you have to make them do they have to go out there. You give them food, you know, bring out coffee. Just do it. We went that, you know, I, as I said, I did not go down south, so I am not going to say did, but people went down there and, you know, and help you got to do that. You got get a mat so you made him secure. Then come out and expand, because we are all in the same boat, right? You know, saying that, you know, I am in a lifeboat with you, and I start drilling a hole under my seat, and you say to me, what are you doing? I said, Well, same boat. Yeah, so that is my word of wisdom. Anything else? IG: 1:34:16 I think? I think not. I think it is a great interview. Thank you very much. SW: 1:34:21 My pleasure. I will show you like one artifact. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stephen Norman Weiss Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weiss, Stephen Norman ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Stephen Norman Weiss is an attorney in New York specializing in Litigation, Patent and Trademark and Intellectual Property cases. He is managing partner at Stephen Norman Weiss Law Office, but currently semi-retired. He pursued a liberal arts education at Harpur College, which he believes was on par with an education from an elite private college. His JD is from New York Law School. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-11-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stephen Weiss.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-11-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 94:30 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0d859f78e9f059ecc4edf71249c12d31.mp3 6d5957095abda2b5ea0e79f966775655 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b98660f9c3203b3aa53447be97f8f9af.png 8040c05abed95639500dcb8b9c6c64c0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geoffrey H. Strauss Biographical Text At Harpur College, Geoffrey studied accounting. A summer job as a counselor with the college’s Upward Bound Program for disadvantaged youth decided him on a career in teaching. He taught accounting at Broome Community College and Endicott High School for 33 years. Date of Interview 2017-12-14 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Year of Graduation 1968 Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Geoffery Strauss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 14 December 2017 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Oh, it is snowing again. Okay, so are we on? Third speaker: 00:15 Yeah. IG: 00:22 So, Jeff, please tell me your name, your birth date, and where we are. GS: 00:32 Okay. My name is Geoffery Strauss. My birth date is May 3, 1946 and right now we are in my living room. IG: 00:43 Okay, so what are the years that you attended Harpur College? GS: 00:47 For our bachelor's, I went there from 1964 graduated in 1968. Then for my master's, from 1969 to 1971. IG: 01:01 Where did you grow up? GS: 01:03 Grew up on Long Island. IG: 01:04 Where in Long Island? GS: 01:06 Baldwin, small town on the south shore, middle of Nassau County. IG: 01:10 So, so what? What were your- What did your parents do? What? What was their occupation? GS: 01:20 My father was a certified public accountant. My mother was for most of my life, a homemaker. IG: 01:27 Right. GS: 01:27 And then when I got to high school, she started a business. So she was a businesswoman for-for a few years, IG: 01:35 Oh, what kind of business? GS: 01:36 Uh, she made things, she made- took-took umbrellas and decorated them, and they had these things called bobeches. They were like a tube. She decorated those, and you put a candle inside, so the candle looked pretty. IG: 01:55 What were- where did you go to high school? GS: 01:59 Baldwin Senior High School in Baldwin. IG: 02:02 Was there an expectation in your family that you would go on to college? GS: 02:07 From the time I was born. [laughs] Yeah, that was one of the things fairly typical for Jewish families. Education is very-very important. So yeah, the expectation was- my father always said you could do anything you want, but first you go to college and then you can do whatever do whatever you want. IG: 02:24 Did you have siblings? GS: 02:25 My sister, had an older sister. She went to Smith. IG: 02:30 So of course, the expectations were for her as well. GS: 02:34 Oh, absolutely. IG: 02:35 Why did you, why did you decide to go to Harper College? GS: 02:38 Kind of a funny kind of story. There was uh, I had been accepted by Drew University in New Jersey, and I went there to look at-- it was a beautiful campus, absolutely gorgeous, like a little piece of New England in New Jersey. Uh, and they had a wonderful program for social studies where you spent your senior year, your junior year, I am sorry, abroad. So I was all set to go there, and then I got accepted at what was then Harpur College, and my mother sat me down and said, "Still, we are still paying on your sister school, Harpur College, your scholarship will take you all the way through while your father said you can go anywhere you want. This would be much less expensive thing." So I ended up going, I ended up going there. So which was actually, I guess, changed my life. My wife there. I changed my occupation there. So it was kind of interesting. IG: 02:57 Right. So what were some of your expectations going in to Harpur? Did you have sort of a career in mind that you would pursue? GS: 03:55 Yeah, I was going to, I majored in accounting, so I was going to take over my father's or join him in his practice, and then eventually take over his practice when he retired. That was the initial thing there. Accounting had no part of my life when we went to Drew, but they had a good accounting program at Harpur, so I switched, and that was my idea there. And I also enjoyed social studies, so I took a lot of classes in the social science department, and a professor there thought I was a social studies major and offered me a graduate position. But I said, I am an accounting major. He said, “You are an accounting major. Why are you taking 200 level courses?” So I said, I like it. So that was a holdover from-from Drew. I just love the politics and the history and-and that. So it is still interested in that. IG: 04:50 So you graduated with a degree in- GS: 04:53 Accounting. IG: 04:54 -in accounting, in accounting. What are you- what is your profession now? GS: 05:01 Well, of course, I am retired now, but for many years, I taught accounting at high school, the local high school, Union-Endicott, and then we also had a program with Broome Community College whereby I taught college accounting. The kids got college credit for-for that as well as high school credit. What was your graduate degree at Binghamton? And- That was in teaching accounting. IG: 05:26 Oh, and teaching in accounting. GS: 05:27 Mm-Hmm. IG: 05:28 What made you decide to go into the teaching profession rather than join your father in his business? GS: 05:38 I had in my- I forgot whether it was my freshman or my sophomore year, they had a pro- they began a program at Harpur called Upward Bound. This was a program for college or kids with college ability, but because of economic or social reasons, probably would not go to school. So this was to encourage them to go. And I became a counselor there, started working with kids, and really enjoyed it. So when I graduated, I sort of combined the accounting and working with kids and went to- started at Maine Endwell, and then moved over to Union Endicott, and played high school for 33-34 years. IG: 06:26 Was your father disappointed that you did not join him in his business? Or did he really like the direction that you were going in? GS: 06:36 It was funny. I think at first, he did not want me to become an accountant. He said as much, too much work, too much work, too much time involved. And I remember, I remember as a kid, you know, he would go- leave in the morning. He would not come home until seven at night because he worked in New York City. And by the time he got home, he did not have dinner until 7:30 or so forth. And then it was basically, after you did your homework, time for bed. So during the week, yeah, hardly ever got to see him, so I realized he spent a lot of time working, but still, that seemed like the thing to do. But I think as I went through college, he sort of warmed to the idea. For a couple of summers, I worked for him, and we worked together going into the city during the summer. We are trimester then, so we had four months off. And so I think he wanted the idea, but then, you know, I sort of moved away, and I do not think he was too upset by it. IG: 07:36 Where did he work? And did he have his own firm? Or...? GS: 07:40 Yeah, he was, he was in, he was in practice by himself, and but most of his clients were in New York City, although he had some up-up- upstate Westchester County. And then actually he had some down in Georgia too. So he would fly to Georgia, do some of his work there. And then he would, he would fly home. IG: 08:00 So what- before going to Harpur, what reputation did Harpur have in your mind and- GS: 08:10 My mind, oh, it was a real, highly academic school, high pressure school, but certainly one of the better-better schools and in the, in the SUNY system. I was out for liberal arts. And so it met my-my requirement there. So it was, it was, it was a good mesh, but it met with its reputation. It was a very high-pressure school. IG: 08:39 And when you arrived and spent some time here, did that impression change? GS: 08:45 Oh, no-no. It just reinforced, once I was a student, that everything revolved around the-the curve, you know, and if you were having a good time, there was some kid back in the in the dorm, studying a little more, which would mess up the curve. So you had a, you had to be back there and studying yourself, so you could get up on that on that curve. IG: 09:13 What was the- so you took liberal arts at first as a requirement. GS: 09:18 Mm-Hmm. IG: 09:18 So what were some- did you have any outstanding courses that you- outstanding faculty that you studied with that kind of pushed you in the direction of teaching? GS: 09:30 Uh, not actually in the direction of teaching. I had a few professors who I really liked. There was one, again, in the Social Studies Department, Dekmejian [Richard Hrair Dekmejian], who was just fantastic. He was he really- I really enjoyed the classes I took with him, and the accounting classes we had Phil Piaker, who was also a local CPA, had his own firm here, and he was terrific. I-I really enjoyed the courses I took from him, but nothing pushed me toward the teaching during the school year, it was, it was the program, the Upward Bound, during that during the summer, that sort of moved me in that direction. IG: 10:14 So you spend most of your time studying, what did you do? What was, what was residential life like? You know, you would spend all your time studying in your room or in the library. And what did you do for recreation? GS: 10:32 [laughs] It was kind of interesting back then. I remember in my freshman and sophomore year that they only had one classroom building called the CA building. Half of it was the administration, and the other, other way was the classroom building. So very often you would go there find an empty classroom. You just sit in there in the evening and then you would study there was nice and quiet. I do not know if they still do things like that, but we did it back then. The library--I did not study in the library too much. It was either in my room or over in the classroom building. IG: 11:04 Right-right. So um, your wife mentioned that she met you in your freshman year. GS: 11:14 Yeah. IG: 11:15 And could you just describe how you remember her from that time? You must have a lasting memory. GS: 11:22 Well, it was funny. She was one of the few upstate people up there. There were so many kids from the metropolitan area, so we sort of called her the funny little upstate girl. And she was very naive, very Catholic. So it was a real change for me. IG: 11:46 Yeah. GS: 11:47 Because most of the kids that I knew on Long Island and associated really with in college too, were nice Jewish boys and girls, and somehow, she-she came, she came to the fore, and there was just something that clicked, right from the very beginning, when I first met her, there was just something special about her, and seemed to work. We have been married for almost 50 years, so it seems seemed pretty good. IG: 12:13 I would say. So, did you first interact after class? Where would you go out? Would you be in your- GS: 12:24 Well, a little bit of both- IG: 12:26 -segregated dorms, which were called co-ed dorms. GS: 12:28 Well, the first semester where we were in what they considered at that time a co-ed dorm, you know, boys in one wing and girls in the other wing. IG: 12:36 Right. GS: 12:37 Then come the fall, that dorm was filled up. So I started during the summer, and then I went over to Broome when Broome first opened up. Now that was the Broome that is not there anymore. They built that building. The construction of it, even when it was brand new, we knew it was really poor. I was like, this building is not going to last. And obviously it did not, because now they have a brand-new dorms. You know, that whole section there. So we, you know, we were there. I had her in a couple of different classes, Spanish class, which was not my forte. So she, she helped me with that. IG: 13:16 She mentioned that. GS: 13:17 Yeah, sometimes by looking over her shoulder, [laughs] uh, languages were not my thing. I took Spanish in seventh grade, eighth grade, ninth grade, tenth grade, eleventh grade and twelfth grade, and they wanted to put me in Spanish. I think two were Spanish three, and all they did was speak Spanish in there. And that was just way beyond me. So they let me audit once again, and then I made it through two, and somehow, I managed to squirm through the language requirement. But boy, that was not easy for me, and it actually runs in the family. My sister had the same problem with languages. She-she took Latin, and then she took Spanish in college, and had the same, same difficulties. We have comprehensions and different thing. Languages not mine- IG: 14:04 You have ability in math, and you have probably for accounting. GS: 14:10 Well, in accounting. And what I really wanted to be for many-many years was an architect. IG: 14:15 Oh really? GS: 14:16 Uh, there was no room for me an architect. I could not do like, I could do the accounting kind of math, the higher math, calculus and stuff like that. I had a lot of difficulty with that. So the architecture was-was going to be out. But I do have a- I do enjoy building things. So that is, that is my idea. I like, I like building accounting systems. I like building physical things, IG: 14:47 Did you build any part of this house? GS: 14:47 Uh, not the house--some of the cabinetry, that clock there, that clock there. So all these things, I build the porch. If you look out in the porch. The porch I built. So, you know, I do like working with my hands, and I got that from my father. He did a lot of woodwork, so I followed with that. I have gone further than but then he did. But then I have- I had being a teacher. I had more time to really do that, and my father never took vacations except to play little golf. IG: 15:19 Um, in my mind, Harpur College at the time was really strong in liberal arts, but you said that you had good experiences in the accounting department. Can you describe what the accounting department was like at the time? GS: 15:35 Uh, kind of difficult at that time we- I was just taking courses, uh, but the idea of eventually, of course, joining-joining my father. Uh, but you know you, they had the courses set up and the catalog--this was the one you took in your freshman year; this is the one you took next, one, next one. So I just follow the progression some professors I like better than others. You know, just like in any, any of the departments, but Dr. Piaker showed he was, he was one of the one of the better ones, because he-he explained things so-so wonderfully, and he had the practical experience to do it, because, you know, he was a practicing CPA as well. Anyway, I just, I just followed her through and eventually got my degree. IG: 16:30 Were you as sort of politically aware as-as your wife at the time? GS: 16:38 She was more politically aware than me. I like more of the history part of it, but the-the mechanics of politics I enjoyed. IG: 16:52 How do you mean? GS: 16:53 You know how different countries worked. You know how they set up their political systems. One of the professors I had in one of my classes, Dr. Ulc [Otto Ulc] I believe he was from one of the communist countries and-and was a judge there and escaped into, you know, into the West. And he was really an interesting guy, really interesting guy. And, of course, he showed us how, taught us how the legal system and the political system worked in the, in the communist regime at the time. And we- you know, compared those to, you know, democracy most of the time in Europe, United States always being sort of a little different. Now, it is all falling apart, but-but-but at the time it was, it was the years of the war in court, kind of liberal, progressive, and it was, and it was kind of kind of fun. I just like those kinds of things. IG: 17:50 Yeah. Were you influenced by the Vietnam War? GS: 17:54 Oh, yeah, a lot, yeah, certainly against the war. Probably one of my reasons for not going into-into accounting itself, we could get a teaching deferment. So that-that-that influenced me a little bit, but if I did not have any interest in teaching, I do not think that would have entered my mind just-just to pick up teaching as for deferment. But that was part of it. IG: 18:17 Yeah. GS: 18:18 Yeah. Vietnam war, with to me, was a disaster from-from the get go, and it turned out, turned out to be- IG: 18:23 Were you aware of it being a disaster? Did-did- GS: 18:26 Oh, yeah-yeah. I did not think it would be such a disaster, where we, you know, I mean, the mightiest army in the world, and could not defeat a whole bunch of, basically a ragtag army. IG: 18:39 Right. GS: 18:39 But they were very dedicated, very clever, very-very dedicated to the to their cause. And I do not think we really had our heart in it. And the truth, I do not think the guys over there had their heart in I do not think the country had their heart in fighting this war. It was more of war for the politicians. And as it turned out, it seemed to be even they knew it was not a good war, but they just felt to save face, we had, we had to stay in. IG: 19:09 Was there- do- in your memory, was there a lot of student activism? GS: 19:15 Oh yeah, there was, you know, a lot of marches-marches, busses going down to Washington, DC. Yeah IG: 19:23 Were you involved in that at all? GS: 19:25 Not as much on campus a little bit, but not-not so far as going down to Washington. I stayed pretty much, you know, on campus with our studying and with our- the group of people who are our friends. IG: 19:41 Did the army recruit at all at Harpur College? GS: 19:45 I do not think so. No, I am not even sure they were allowed on campus. Looking back, it was pretty anti- Very anti-military. -military at that particular point. IG: 19:57 Um, there was a big town and gown separation, and I- in Binghamton, GS: 20:02 [inaudible] IG: 20:04 You know, town and gown. GS: 20:07 Oh, town and gown. I am sorry, yes-yes, I gotcha, yeah. IG: 20:10 So, you know, I imagine that many of the Binghamton locals were probably supportive of the war. GS: 20:18 Yeah, there was not a real close town and gown relationship while we were there at all. There was the town and there was the gown. IG: 20:25 Right. GS: 20:25 And they seemed very resentful of the campus. They did not mind us spending the money in town, but they did not associate with us. I am not sure if that is changed or not. There was very few of the students who lived off campus. IG: 20:40 Right. GS: 20:40 Almost everybody lived on campus at that particular time. Uh, so I guess the relationship between students and-and the community, I do not think we are very strong at that particular- during those days. IG: 20:58 Well, perhaps you know now I noticed that the I know that the university is very invested in helping them- Binghamton community, but before it might not have happened. GS: 21:11 Now, it is a little satellite all by itself. IG: 21:14 And you felt that very much, that you were sort of a culturally apart. GS: 21:19 Yeah, since most of us were from downstate, yeah, and more liberal, this was a pretty conservative. Was and is a pretty conservative area. Harpur sort of stood by itself. IG: 21:30 Right. GS: 21:31 You know, pretty iso- physically, it was isolated. IG: 21:34 Right. GS: 21:35 You know, on campus, small campus, lots of land all around where- which the campus owned, but kept us, kept us separate. The only way to get into town was a bus, you know, the public bus, which had to stop. And the only, you know, the mall, as we know it was not built yet. All we had was the Vestal Plaza and the stores that were there, Britts, which was a department store that is long gone. And so that is where we would go shopping. IG: 22:05 Nobody had cars at the time. GS: 22:07 Very few, very few. There was not even much parking. Eventually, I got a car. I think it was in my junior year, and that really liberated up a lot of us, but we- as far as driving around is concerned, you drove home, you drove back, but once you were on campus, unless you went out for dinner or something like that, yeah, you pretty much stayed on campus. IG: 22:31 So um, tell me about, you know, residential life more and the dormitory situation and where you would visit your wife. Did you go out? Did you visit her at her dorm when you started going out? GS: 22:51 Yeah, well, we did both--for a couple of years, couple of semesters, we were separated. I was in Broome, I think she was in Whitney, and then eventually a place opened up, a room opened up, so I went there. So we were, we were pretty close, because they locked the ladies up. So that, you know, after that the guys would go out, but, and you had to have your girlfriend back on campus, by-by-by curfew. But, you know, we would go out. We would go to dinner together. We would study together. She would help me with my Spanish, one way or another. She did not help me with my accounting. IG: 23:08 Yes-yes. I understand that there were a number of breakups in that relationship. GS: 23:35 Oh, yeah, that is the religious thing. Yeah, we had being Jewish and her being Catholic, my parents were not really keen on-on the-the-the joining of the two, but there were just something about her which I just could not- IG: 23:50 [laughs] That is funny. GS: 23:52 -could not-could not shake. So we kept on going back. And eventually we decided to get-get married. That was, that was a somewhat traumatic area, because my parents did not want us to get married because of the religious factor, and my father said he would disown us and so forth. But once we got married, he got to know her, found out the wonderful person she was and we did not, you know, we did not have any difficulty from that standpoint. But before we got married, my parents sent me to talk to a cousin who was a rabbi, to try and talk me out of it. And then from her, from her side, we had to go to, I think it called pre cana classes, which did not mean much to me, but you did what you had to do, and so we eventually ironed out all the problems, and things seemed to work. Third speaker 23:53 How did you raise your kids? Did they get the both culture? GS: 24:00 Yeah, they did, but that was basically my wife. I was not very religious. I was not very religious. And if it were not for my wife, I do not think they would have gotten much of the Jewish side. But we celebrated both. They did not go to Jewish religious school. They went to Catholic school. Well, you know the after-school kind of Catholic school, Sunday-Sunday school for a couple of years until they were confirmed, but after that, they did not, they did not go and we tried to show them that there were different ways of looking at things. Everyone has their own stuff, but there was really basically a commonality of all religions. But my kids aren't very religious either. Maybe that is my fault, but Jan was the one who made sure that we celebrated both and that the kids knew of both cultures. IG: 25:51 Yeah. Do you think that-that kind of acceptance of, you know, of just of the coexistence, the possibility of coexist, of two religions, coexisting side by side in a family. Was that in any way influenced by sort of the liberal attitudes on campus at the time, or is that something that came to you. GS: 26:23 That is an interesting- that is an interesting question. I cannot answer that. I do not know if it was my liberality. It was more my love for Jan than anything else that seemed to- I could not shake her out of my mind. She was, she was, she was pretty important to my life. From the time I met her, there was a chemistry there, obviously, and I was just determined to make it work. But two of us were determined, even though I said, "No," this is not going to work. This is not going to work so we would break up. Was not her breaking up with me? Was me breaking up with her because this is just going to be too much of a hassle. But then could not get her out of my mind, so I would be back. And then eventually I just scrapped that idea of this is not going to work, and decided it is going to work. IG: 27:14 Did you have expectations of staying in Binghamton, or did you want to return to Long Island? GS: 27:20 Well, that is sort of, sort of interesting. I- uh, Jan was from Niagara Falls. I was obviously from Long Island; we were physically almost right in the middle. It was four hours to her house, four and a half hours to my house, you know, her parents’ house. So her parents, I think, wanted us up there. I know my parents wanted us down there, and we thought, well, this is a good compromise in between, you know, from a physical standpoint. Plus the city in Long Island really started to get to me. It was just the long lines, the hassle down there, working for my father for a couple of summers, pretty much turned me off from-from wanting to-to be down there. It was just too stressful--was not-was not- I adapted more to the Upstate way of life than it was to the to the to the city way of life. We like to go to visit down there. I mean, museums and things were great, nice place to visit, but we did not want to live there. IG: 28:24 So you stayed in touch with Binghamton, with Harpur College and then Binghamton University through the years, right? I mean, you went back to graduate school. GS: 28:37 Right. IG: 28:37 Would you- your wife mentioned that you had exchange students that- welcome to- into your home. GS: 28:44 Right. IG: 28:45 And some of them came from Binghamton. GS: 28:47 Uh, the exchange students did not come from Binghamton. IG: 28:50 Not the exchange but what was the name of the program? GS: 28:53 There was a rotor- the rotary program, yeah-yeah, that, yeah. The Business rotary had the exchange program where they brought students in. They would go to high school, but they needed homes for the for the kids, and they would rotate them, I think, every three or four months, so they had experience with various families in the United States before they, before they went home. And through, I sort of, I think I gave her the idea, I am trying to, trying to think way back, because my-my school participated in the program. We had kids from the program, and my department and the language department shared an office. So they had, they had asked, does anybody have you know- is anybody interested in hosting some of these kids? So I went home and asked my wife, and she said, "Oh, that would be a great idea." IG: 29:44 Right. GS: 29:44 So this started really when my when my daughter was born. IG: 29:48 Right. GS: 29:49 So 40 some odd years ago, and it was, it was really, really, very nice. The kids came into the house. They- our kids had had exposure to. IG: 30:00 Yeah. GS: 30:01 Kids from all different- IG: 30:04 Parts of the world. GS: 30:05 -parts of the world. And then eventually we went and visited some of them in Brazil and so forth. And of course, Jan had the Spanish we had a lot of Spanish speaking students. We did have one from South Africa. We had one from the Philippines, I think all told we had 11 or 12-12, kids here and we and we also had a professor, a teacher, who stayed with us for a few weeks, because we-we were like a sister school of a German- our German department had a relationship, so the- our teacher went over to Germany, and their teacher came over here Helmut, and he was, he was, he was quite a fella. IG: 30:49 But, you know, looking back, there was not a lot of international students or diversity at Harpur College when you were going there were there any students...? GS: 31:00 I think, I think there was not to the extent that they have today. IG: 31:05 No. GS: 31:06 We developed a friendship with one guy from, from Africa, Yeah, your wife mentioned. Yeah. And he was, he was a super guy, but also very-very bright man, and went-went back. We-we have been in contact on occasions, through-through email. IG: 31:28 Right. GS: 31:29 Other than that, we have not but he was a really gutsy guy. He went back to try and improve a lot of the blacks in-in Africa. And he went into some problems with-with the government, which was a, you know, a white government back there. So he was, he was a very, very brave fellow, but, and just a super-super nice guy. IG: 31:51 So you stayed in touch with him, since, you know what he did after graduating. GS: 31:56 Yeah, he-he went on to graduate school, I believe, in Canada and also in England, he kind of got some degrees. We did have a tendency to lose touch during those-those years. We just hit on each other, you know, once in a while. IG: 32:12 By email, by phone? GS: 32:14 Well, back then, it was basically by-by contact, either someone knew of what he did, or things of that nature, or maybe by phone, email was unheard of back then. IG: 32:26 Right. GS: 32:27 So it was not until, I guess, a few years ago, somehow, we got in touch with him, got that phone. We somehow made contact there. It was interesting. We were down in New York City and visiting my sister-in-law, and there were posters on the telephone poles, and he was giving a talk, and we wanted to see him, so we called, and we for some reason, we just could not make contact there, and I was, I was really disappointed and but I cannot remember how, but we did make contact again once email came about a few years ago, because he was a friend, not only of jam myself, but also the-the group of people who we were with. So somehow, we made and then, you know, by this time is his brother had passed away, and, you know, he had his kids and-and what have you. And then we lost, lost contact again. IG: 33:30 So it seems like you had a close group of friends that- GS: 33:34 Yeah, we did. IG: 33:35 -stay with- what-what do you think maybe it was a special thing about the school that kind of engender that type of relation, GS: 33:44 Yeah-yeah. I think so. IG: 33:44 Not everybody stays in touch with their- GS: 33:49 Yeah, well, I think part of it was-was you needed a support system there, because of, again, the pressure, the pressure of the school, so you needed a support system to maintain your-your sanity and your ability to keep on going. So we developed this-this group of, I do not know about ten of us, I guess, and several of us married each other, you know. So now-now we are couples. So we-we certainly stay in touch. We see each other. We are going to see each other over New Year. One of them, one of the one of the group, became a doctor, so we use enough money to buy a home in the Poconos. So we all, we all meet in the Poconos, and then we then meet again, usually during the summer. And now he is going to retire, so I think they are going to be moving permanently to the Pocono place so well they will be close enough to- [crosstalk] IG: 34:47 -is that, did he come to the (19)67 reunion? I see. GS: 34:50 No-no-no, he did not know. The reason being that they, they had another commitment. Uh, but they had, they had wanted to, but they-they they could not do it, but he had graduated at that time to the (19)67-(19)66-(19)67 time. So he was, they were the only ones at the group who did, who could make it. IG: 35:04 [crosstalk]-interested in- what was his name? GS: 35:13 Oh, Wolraich. Mark Wolraich. IG: 35:16 How do you spell it? Because I might [crosstalk] GS: 35:18 Oh, boy, W, O, L, R, A, I, C, H. IG: 35:23 Mark? GS: 35:24 Mark, yeah, and his specialty is working with-with kids like-like our granddaughter. So when our granddaughter was first born and we started to see difficulties with her, he pretty much knew what was, what the problem was, and-and without him, she would not have gotten the help as soon as she would have. It is so difficult to get young kids to see the doctors and the organizations that will analyze and finally determine that-that she was autistic, and he knew people up in Rochester, and he got us, got us in-in just a couple of months, where, if we had called ourselves, it would have been over a year before she could have been seen, because they were just so backed up. I mean, so few facilities, so many kids like this now. So he has been through any-any calls to see how things are going. He looked at the SUNY has a thing for autistic kids, which-which we did not know until the situation came and then and John said- IG: 36:36 It is new center. It is a new center, right? GS: 36:38 It is a school. IG: 36:39 It is a school. GS: 36:40 It is a school. Yeah, it is down behind the old men's gym. Yeah. So we went and visited there, and we went and visited the Handicapped Children's Center in-in Johnson City, looked at both programs and because she is, she is kind of social, where a lot of autistic kids cannot. Along with Mark's input and so forth, we decided that-that would- the one at Johnson City would be a better fit for her. So it has- he has been just terrific. I do not know what we would have done without him. He just moved mountains for her. IG: 37:19 That is very fortunate. GS: 37:21 Very fortunate. Yeah, it is one of those things, you know. It is who you know. IG: 37:24 It really is. GS: 37:25 We were very fortunate. Yeah, one that he was our friend, and that he just happened to go into this field. He runs a big program out in the university where he where he teaches. IG: 37:26 Where does he teach? GS: 37:30 Uh, trying to remember, he has moved around so often. Jan-Jan [calling his wife], Midwest. IG: 37:47 Well, it does not matter, I mean, um, so maybe you could tell me about some of the ways um, that you have seen the university change over the years. GS: 38:09 Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, it became a university. It was not a university. And we were there when we started, and while we were there, it became the State University of New York at Binghamton. IG: 38:20 Right. GS: 38:21 That was the last couple of years. So they developed a small graduate-graduate program, and you get graduate degrees there. And just a physical plant itself has grown enormously since we were, since we were, we were there. We just had the little-little core the brain was-was there. No, but the brain. IG: 38:22 Yes-yes. GS: 38:23 So just-just basically the-the old buildings and the brain were there with a couple of dorms. Then by the time we finished, or almost finished, they built what we called the self regs, which is the Hinman complex, and-and the cafeteria up there. And of course, they have expanded their-their program tremendously, I mean, to the point where they have a school for-for kids with-with difficulties, right on campus. I mean, we had- we did not know the building was there, let alone that there was a school there. IG: 39:18 And now they are expanding the health sciences to Johnson City. GS: 39:22 Right-right down in Binghamton, they have a campus, so they are going to have one in Johnson City. So now they have a, you know, a nursing program, which was not there when we were there, in addition. So, you know, the physical plan and the academic pursuits have just expanded dramatically since-since we have been there over the years. IG: 39:47 Do you think that it still has the spirit of Harpur College? You know, the reputation that it had of being socially committed students and academically rigorous. How has, you know, the- GS: 40:04 From everything I understand, yeah, it is rated one of the, you know, the highest schools in the state university system. IG: 40:10 Yeah. GS: 40:11 So I would say absolutely. And the kids, when we, when we go over there, we do not get off and talk to this, to the students therapy. You could see it. It seems very academic. They have the libraries in each of the complexes now. Now we just have the library now they have satellite libraries all over. The quality of the faculties remain very high as far as doctorates are concerned. So I would say academically, it is probably as good as- IG: 40:43 As it was. GS: 40:44 As it was, yeah. IG: 40:45 But what really differentiated, you know, Binghamton now from Binghamton at Harpur College when you were going? Because it was a smaller school. GS: 40:55 Much more. That is one of the reasons we went there. IG: 40:57 It was, it was a smaller school, was it would you say that it was politically active more so? GS: 41:05 Yeah. IG: 41:05 Do you think that-that is was a response to the times, to the (19)60s, the culture those sort of the youth culture of the (19)60s? Or do you think that it was, you know, peculiar to unique to the school, or, you know- GS: 41:23 Well, I think that the universities, a lot of the universities at the time, in the (19)60s, with the Vietnam War, Kent State, and a lot- IG: 41:23 Right. GS: 41:23 I know that stuff occurred during, during our, our growing up time, and I think that necessitated all the activity, the political activity that was generated on campus at that time, and now-now, I think again, because of the political situation which we have, it probably has, well, it rejuvenated our political interest and made much more active again, after years of, you know, raising a family and and-and working, we have got much more politically active now as a result of the Republicans taking over. So it is- [crosstalk] IG: 42:17 Do you think seeds were planted at Harpur College? GS: 42:19 Yeah-yeah, I think so, yeah. Plus-plus our-our liberal attitude, all right, we are much more inclusive that society has become. We-we just like everybody. That is one of the reasons we like to travel. We like to meet people, talk people. One of the advantages of taking the cruises that we do is we sit dinner with people from all over the world, and you get to talk politics. Although it was interesting. The cruise we just got back from, nobody taught politics. It was sort of a subject which was not brought up. This is the first time, and just so- IG: 42:56 To Sydney, when you went to Sydney? GS: 42:58 Yeah, we went to Australia and New Zealand. IG: 43:01 Right. GS: 43:02 People just steered away, even people from other countries just did not bring it up, which is totally different. IG: 43:08 Well, maybe they are afraid to hurt you by saying anything negative. GS: 43:12 Yeah. Well, you know, you are on vacation, you do not want to get into an argument. And in all-all truth, we probably would not get into an argument because we probably would agree with them. [laughs] As far as the situation is concerned, we are an awful situation. I am really worried about this country staying together as the United States, and we are so-so polarized that I just will be amazed if we survive this as a united country. So hopefully things will change. Do you remember any legends or great stories about Harpur College at the time? IG: 43:53 But the only one was Lake Lieberman. Talk about that. GS: 43:59 Well, behind- in the Broome complex, behind the Broome complex and behind the Newing dining hall, which is now, I understand it is gone. There was a pond, and the story was the time that one kid fell in, and they said, "Should we get them out?" And said, "No, just leave them in." So that is, that is how, that is how the name came about. That was the story. I do not know what the real story was- [inaudible] Lieberman got but that was the story at the time. So that was one of the thing. And then we had the coat ceremony. IG: 44:41 So did the kid live? GS: 44:42 Oh, yeah. I mean, this was not a pond, still there. It was not very deep, and it was brand new. It was a man-made pot. So that was, that was one story which we had, and that was, that was, that was behind our dormitory, so that there were. Two other, I guess, activities, the stepping on the coat ceremony, which was on the Esplanade, which is now gone, unfortunately, that took place, and that was annually, in the spring, when the cold weather stopped and the warm weather began to officially state that spring was here, they would have a stepping on the coat ceremony, where they take an overcoat, do a few speeches in old, an old English--some, some kid wrote an old, I cannot repeat it. Some of the people remember, I do not know if you have a recording of it, but it is it was quite something. And then they, when it was official, they would step on the coat. Okay. Spring has now arrived. That was, that was the official statement. IG: 45:44 Did you see the ceremony performed at any point? GS: 45:47 Oh yeah. IG: 45:47 Oh you did. Speaker 1 45:47 Oh yeah, I saw it, but I cannot repeat the Old English speech that was given, but oh yeah. That was probably the last couple of years I was there. And then the other- [crosstalk] IG: 46:00 [inaudible] as-as being a student on campus, did you attend this? Oh-oh, so people kind of you know, plugged into the student events. GS: 46:05 Oh, sure. Oh yeah. IG: 46:10 on your [inaudible], yeah. GS: 46:11 When we were there, you had the campus was our life. IG: 46:13 Yes. GS: 46:14 When we were there, that was, again, we did not do much off campus. Campus life was-was the life. And there were no other campuses to go to at the time. So, uh- IG: 46:24 Were you into sports? Were you into any other activities? Really? GS: 46:27 No activities. That is kind of interesting. One of the reasons I went to Harpur was--I was a target shooter, and I was on the rifle team in high school, and Harpur had, at the time, a target range by the time I got- but when I came up here, I found out that they had basically closed it down. So I was quite a, quite a disappointment to me. It was still there, but it was not being used. So I even brought my rifle up with me, which had to be locked up with the, with the campus police, and I never took it out. Yeah, or they would not let you keep in the dorm or anything. So that is where it had to be kept. And then if, well, even the campus police did not have guns back there, all they had was a night stick. Everybody has guns, yeah, on campus. I mean, kids have guns too. IG: 47:20 I do not think so. GS: 47:21 Oh! Third speaker: 47:21 Maybe not on campus, but in America- You go to the Walmart and purchase- GS: 47:26 I know it is a gun crazy culture. I know a lot of our friends, yeah, we call them gun nuts, but a lot of my friends are gun nuts, so it is just part of our crazy cultures. I do not understand it, and I am an old NRA person, but that was the NRA back when I was a member. Was a lot different. That organization has been hijacked from an educational to a political group. Anyway. That is sort of an interesting story of itself. But yeah, from a sports I am not very sports oriented. I am also very, probably because I am very, not very good at sports. I am more into reading and doing my woodwork, things of that nature. I wish they would have to work- a wood shop on campus. We could have worked, worked up, but they-they did not. That would have been really cool. And the but the one other activity, if you are talking about sports, was train you were [inaudible] up train, you would- the cafeterias had fiberglass trays. That was very important, that they were fiberglass, and we would steal them borrow and there was a hill right by Broome that goes down towards the-the old gym and the fields down there. So when it snowed, we would take these trades, we would sit on them, and we would shoot down the hill. So that was that was about the extent of my-my kind of physical activity, but it was kind of funny. At some point, they bought new trays, and they were metal trays that were encased in a rubberized plastic case that was textured and they would not slide. So that was the end of tray, unless you got some other device. But we, I guess maybe they did it to save the trays in the in the cafeteria. IG: 49:32 Probably somebody caught on. GS: 49:35 Yeah. [laughs] IG: 49:38 So, you know, tell me what you miss most about those years. GS: 49:43 It had to be the people and the camaraderie we had with-with our group, that was great. I mean, we still meet with the people, but we have, we have, we have spread out so we do not see each other all the time, but I really miss. Living and being together with all-all of our friends, that was really great. I do not miss the pressure of the, of the academics. I mean, it was, I think 10 or 15 years after I graduated, I would still wake up in the middle of night, well, for my nightmare, saying, oh my god, the papers due tomorrow, only to realize, you know, you graduated, like, 10 or 15 years ago, but you had these nightmares, but the people were terrific. And I think also living, you got to learn to live on your own, away from your parents, you know, without their protection- IG: 50:37 But in a community. GS: 50:39 -but in a community which was which was loving and-and safe for the most part. I miss, I miss that a lot, because the world is not safe anymore. My world is not-not safe the way it was. You like-like any most colleges, you are protected. So. IG: 50:58 It was safe, it was a haven. But the world still was not safe with the Vietnam- GS: 51:03 Oh, absolutely. IG: 51:05 -and- GS: 51:05 Yeah, but- IG: 51:06 I am being very aware that you could be- [crosstalk] GS: 51:09 Oh, drafted. Oh yeah, the draft was-was-was an ever-present worry, yeah. But while you were on campus, as long as you had that deferment from- for being a student deferment. You were, you were safe as soon as you graduated. You were, we were in trouble. But they-they had the-the war boards. Well, one of the ways you could be deferred from-from the armed forces was to take this exam. And if you got a certain score in the exam, then you could continue your student affirming. If you did not do it, then you were up for- to be involuntarily taken into the, into the army and sent over to Vietnam. So I remember those. And then they had the lottery late later on, where they picked your name out of a or your birth date out of a hat. And if they picked your-your date, it was more difficult to get into deferment, you know, so and those people who were later dates than they would be recruited later on, but if they had the number of bodies that they needed to-to satisfy the-the army at that particular point, if you were in the-the end of the-the lottery, you did not get called. IG: 52:36 Did any of your classmates get called during the college? GS: 52:42 Uh, only one that I remember, we were not very close. One of the brothers ended up going over, and then, of course, we lost contact with him once he was recruited. But most of us went on to graduate school so we could continue our-our deferments, or we had occupations such as teaching which-which would defer. So most of us did not go. We mark got into a program whereby he had to do public service while he was in medical school, and that kept him out of the army, per se, but he was in the Public Health Service on an Indian reservation. IG: 53:27 Oh, how interesting. GS: 53:27 Well, they adopted- IG: 53:29 Here in northeast, or...? GS: 53:32 Oh, no-no, out west. Okay, see, I- IG: 53:45 You want to stop this? GS: 53:47 Yeah. Third speaker: 53:54 Okay. IG: 53:59 Soum, tell us about- do you recall any great characters from among your group of friends? Could you tell us about anyone you know who was a real character? GS: 54:15 Māori Cruise. I think he was from Cuba. IG: 54:18 Yeah. GS: 54:19 He was a character. IG: 54:20 How so? GS: 54:24 Never took anything seriously. He was always one of those free flight people who just seemed to enjoy life. I think that was probably his Cuban upbringing. He got a mo- he even got a motorcycle. You know, it was my first and only motorcycle ride. Was holding on for dear life. Māori around, but he was, he was just a fun, a fun guy. I do not even think he lasted for more than a year or two at school. He just enjoyed life too much. But he was a real character. We had a, we had a good time, if you wanted, if you wanted a good time. Māori was the guy to go out with. I think he was Cuba- he was Cuban from Cuba. IG: 54:59 Was he a Cuban American or Cuban from Cuba? So, how did you how did he talk about Cuba? How did you feel about Cuba at the time? Did you think that it was an enemy state? GS: 55:13 I do not think so. We-we did not talk politics. As far as that was concerned with the Māori, everything was-was social. You did not talk to him seriously about things like that. In my memory, he was just happy to be here and was enjoying life. So he- his happiness was very infectious. IG: 55:43 How do you think your classmates would remember you from your years at Harpur College? What would they say about you? GS: 55:50 Oh, gosh, if they even remembered me. IG: 55:53 Basically your friends. GS: 55:54 Well, those people, the ones are still friends. Oh, I think they would remember me. IG: 55:59 How? GS: 55:59 Well, how? I do not know. IG: 56:04 [inaudible] yourself from those years. GS: 56:06 Sort of, I am sort of a jokester. I- not practical jokes, but I use a lot of double intenders. I turn words around and things like that. That is sort of my reputation. But also sort of to a certain thing serious. And you can have serious discussions, which we do whenever-whenever we get together, we all talk politics and so forth. We are all of the same kind of political persuasion. And- IG: 56:36 So, You are pretty much the same person that you- GS: 56:40 I do not, I do not see me changing. I think, I think I am more tolerant. I thought I was tolerant them. I think I am more tolerant now. I think my attitude toward women have changed dramatically. I was used- I was brought up at a time when, you know, women did what they were told. Kind of idea. Wives did what they were they were told they were subservient to the husbands. Jan made quick disposed of that very quickly, [laughter] and obviously it was for the good, you know, but I learned quickly that-that is not the way you treat a woman or a wife. IG: 57:27 So you are emotionally intelligent, not only book smart. GS: 57:30 Well, I like to think so. Plus, I was in a profession where there were a lot of women. IG: 57:34 Right. GS: 57:35 In teaching there were a lot of women, so I always considered them my-my equals. I never considered them subserving to me in any way, shape or form. But then I felt the same way about secretaries and custodians. I never- there were a lot of professionals who think of those people and-and the I hate to use the term lesser occupations as somehow being inferior. And I was always friends with all these people. Yeah, we had to treat them- I mean, they are people who just were in a different field. That is all. That is why I looked at it. So I think most of my friends feel that way. And this, I think when they think of me, they-they think of a person who's very accepting and very tolerant and liberal. IG: 58:24 Good. Just [inaudible] I forget this one thing, you were on a judicial board, the punishment for your wife's infraction. GS: 58:38 Oh, not her infraction, her roommate. IG: 58:40 Her roommate. GS: 58:41 Her roommate, her roommates, infraction, yeah, yeah, judicial review board, we had [talking to his wife] No. [his wife replies] Okay. Okay, I have to read this later. Uh, supposedly we were self-governing. Okay. When it came to the real thing, of course, the administration took over. But for minor infractions of the rules, a student was brought before the judicial review board. Nine out of 10 of these things, maybe 99 out of out of 100 were curfew infractions. So we had to come up with some way to punish the girls because their boyfriends brought them home late. I mean, looking back, I was so absurd, [laughs] but we did not take it really all too seriously. Because, I mean, even then, we knew that curfew was kind of, kind of kind of dumb, so we imposed a penalty on Jan's roommate, who came back late, of having to make chocolate chip cookies for the dorm. I mean, this is a kind of a [inaudible]. We had this little, little cubby hole of a kitchen with this little tiny oven, and I knew that Jan mother had sent her with cookie trays and mixing bowls and so forth. So I thought, gee, this would be a good, a good thing. I like chocolate chip cookies. The dorm likes chocolate chip cookies, so why do not we have her make chocolate chip cookies for the dorm? So I did not realize at the time how much work was involved. We probably would have thought of something else, but it was sort of like almost in jest, almost in fun, because a silly infraction, you make a silly punishment. I mean, what do you- what kind of things are you going to do? How did you join this judicial board? You applied. IG: 1:00:49 You applied. GS: 1:00:49 You applied. Yeah, you know, they had different organizations on campuses like the radio or-or the newspaper thing. And I applied. And I do not even know how you got accepted. Right. Just all of a sudden, I was I said, "Sure, I will join that." And you were there. IG: 1:01:08 You were there. Well- GS: 1:01:11 So long ago. IG: 1:01:14 I am, you know, I think that we are going to wrap up soon. I would like to know if there are any concluding remarks that you might have about Harper College and your experience there, and you know how it impacted the rest of your life? GS: 1:01:32 Well, obviously it had a great impact in my life. My best friends, I met there, and we kept, we have kept in touch for 50 years, met my wife there, and we have been married for 50 years, but looking back on it, we had a super-duper education for a super-duper bargain price. The tuition was only $200 a semester at the time-- region, scholarship took care of that, so it was room and board, which I think was $400 or $435 a semester plus books. Why we do not continue to do that is beyond me. I know there is a cost involved, but here we had a situation where superb education a price that anyone could-could pay for and then we went on to make a country. Why do not we continue to do that? Encourage people to do that. I mean, people cannot just go out in the world without an education, especially now. So why do not we willingly and happily educate our populace at a reasonable price, right? Why burden them with years of debt? It is crazy. So I am definitely appreciative of the education I got, and every time I think of the costs, it just makes me laugh, because how- it was what an opportunity we had, what an opportunity we had, and we did not. I do not think we realized it at the time, how great, because we thought that would continue forever. State University is always going to be $200 a semester, and the quality of the education was just terrific. Could not, could not do better. And I assume the quality of education that the kids are getting there to State University today is at least equal to what we had, although the cost is-is a lot more, well, still cheaper than private schools, but because my son went to Ithaca, so we know how that is. But what an opportunity. I am indebted to the state of New York for the education they provided me, both elementary high school and college. Could not be what I am today without them. IG: 1:03:59 Well, thank you very much. GS: 1:04:00 Oh my pleasure. My pleasure. IG: 1:04:02 Thank you so much for your time welcoming us into your lovely home. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Geoffrey H. Strauss Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Strauss, Geoffrey H. ; Gashurov, Irene Description An account of the resource At Harpur College, Geoffrey studied accounting. A summer job as a counselor with the college’s Upward Bound Program for disadvantaged youth decided him on a career in teaching. He taught accounting at Broome Community College and Endicott High School for 33 years. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-12-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 64:09 minutes Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4ad3dade9e07c21989df7f163995debd.mp3 8e699e5a681a4d200333ead51d8b6e7c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2017-12-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Janice L. Strauss Year of Graduation 1968 Biographical Text Janice is a Niagara Falls native. She worked as a Spanish teacher in Broome County. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Janice Strauss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 14 December 2017 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:03 You will keep track of time? Okay. So-so please tell me your name, your birth date- Third speaker: 00:05 Yeah. JS: 00:13 Okay. IG: 00:14 -and where, and where we are. JS: 00:16 I am Janice Strauss, and my birth date was December 17, 1946 and we were in my home in Endicott, on Bean Hill Road. IG: 00:29 So, could you tell me where you grew up? JS: 00:34 Well, I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but only lived there for five years, and my parents moved to Niagara Falls, New York, and that is where I grew up, in an infamous area now called Love Canal, which we did not know about at the time. [laughs] IG: 00:49 So-so could- when did you come to Harpur College? JS: 00:55 I came to Harpur College in 1968, no 1964-1964 I graduated in 1968. Came in the summer of 1964 because Harpur College was still on trimester. And so, they had three semesters a year, one the first one started in July of 1964. IG: 01:20 So, what- do you have any memories, sort of, you know, brief snapshots of what the campus looked like when you first arrived, or, you know, from-from the time that you were there? JS: 01:30 Well, it was certainly much smaller than it is now. It was all red brick. The buildings were all red brick. There were none of these other designs. Um, and it was in perpetual- it was under a state of perpetual construction. There was always an area that was being added, um modified. I remember them planting trees one summer and pulling them out the next year because they were going to put a building right where they had just planted the trees. So, it is constant-constantly changing. IG: 02:07 Great planning. JS: 02:08 Yeah, we wondered [inaudible] wise guy, college kids, every once in a while, wondered about that. [laughs] IG: 02:15 So um, what were um- what was- tell me what were some of the significant events during the time that you were there that you remember that stand out? Um, historical events? JS: 02:31 Oh, historical events. Well, the entire time there was overshadowed by the Vietnam War, protests. People constantly leaving campus to go on busses to Washington, DC, running around, borrowing things from other people, everything from handkerchiefs in case they had to be prepared for tear gas to-- we were all rummaging through things to find things to send them off. As far as campus itself, we had a visit from Governor Rockefeller, Nelson Rockefeller at the time, because he had a hand in expanding campuses all over the state. And sometimes they called it Rockefeller's rock pile or mud pile, because with all that construction and building, something was always torn up in a mess, and when it rained, it would be muddy and-and I remember that a lot--people being concerned about that. Other significant historical events, the one that just hangs over my head is Vietnam. IG: 02:35 And how did you feel about the Vietnam War? JS: 02:38 I thought it was a dumb idea. Then I know that I know more, I think it was an even dumber idea. [laughs] I was not- I was still a little green. I just knew that we were sending a lot of people over there to kill other people, and the domino theory was-was right up front and center at the time. Our government was constantly telling us that if Vietnam fell to communism, then the whole rest of Southeast Asia would become communists, and we had to be worried and concerned about that. But even then, it was clear that it was a guerilla type war that our government did not even understand, and yet, standing back and looking in, you could see what was happening and-and the- the um- and it made for-for so many more deaths, because we did not seem to understand the strategy. We were fighting two different wars, and it meant that more people were being killed on our side, and more people were being killed on their side as they dumped Agent Orange. And I even remember us protesting against the Dow Chemical corporation because they were producing Agent Orange- IG: 04:50 During your time on campus? JS: 04:52 Yes-yes. So that was the biggest thing by far. IG: 04:56 Do you think that you became politicized on campus? Was, or did it stem from your upbringing? JS: 05:06 More so on campus-- just before I went to Harpur College, I had been an exchange student to Ecuador, and that opened my eyes. That was, that was the beginning, because then I saw what was happening to USAID money. Money was not going to the common person. I learned a different way to think-- everything from as simple as a space you know how we are sitting right now, we were fairly comfortable not in Ecuador, if you were friendly, you have to be here different. And because of how I was raised, I take a step backward, and they would take a step forward, and pretty soon I would be against the wall every day. [laughs] Things that you never thought about at all. I was very green when I went to Ecuador, and that started me thinking more along political and different lines. Kind of opened my eyes that there were there were different things out there that I never knew about. IG: 06:01 So, you spoke Spanish before you went to Ecuador. JS: 06:07 No-no, I had studied three years of German, [laughs] a year of Latin, a year of Latin, and three years of German. And yeah, I learned it quick, quickly, very quickly, um, yeah. So- IG: 06:19 Obviously, a talent for languages. JS: 06:22 Yeah, so when I came- eventually became a Spanish teacher. IG: 06:27 What? What did your- what was your home life like? What did your parents do? JS: 06:33 My dad was a factory worker. He worked for DuPont. It was a terrible job. I did not totally realize it and appreciate it at the time. At that time, though, they paid laborers decently so they could earn a living-- we had a small house. We owned our own home. I was the oldest of five kids, and my mom, for most of my childhood was a homemaker. It was only when they started cutting back at DuPont, and my father got a lesser job, but my mother went back. She already had her college degree, and she went back into teaching. And so, when I was in high school, my mother went back to work but I was the oldest. The youngest was only in kindergarten at the time, but- so I was- as the oldest child, I often took care of my younger siblings, but not until I was in high school. I mean, I led a pretty sheltered life, quiet, lower middle-class neighborhood, with my dad working his tail off, I think, which eventually killed him. He died when he was only 62 and by then, his hair roots had started to turn green from all the chemicals and he made, he made sodium for DuPont, and they did something called tickle the cells, which meant that they stirred up big, giant furnaces, and the sodium would pop up at them. And you would see them hanging out as you drive by the factories, you would see them hanging out the windows trying to breathe better. And I did not appreciate when he brought- he wore long underwear every day to protect himself from the burns. And when he came home each night, you could ring the sweat out there was that much. I mean, that is so you can imagine how hot it had to have been inside and all that kind of stuff. And as a kid, I do not- look back and look back at it. As an adult, I can appreciate so much more what he did and what he went through than I did as-as-as a kid, you know, but there were a lot of those in Niagara Falls. IG: 08:35 It was a family that valued education. JS: 08:38 Very much so. Yeah-yeah. IG: 08:42 Because you went on to college and became a Spanish teacher. And your siblings? JS: 08:46 They all went to college-- all of them. I have a brother who has just retired as a- was a registered nurse. I have a brother who became an engineer. Lives in Boston. He worked for the EPA up until this year. I have a sister who was a systems analyst who has retired and now lives here. She lived in New York City her whole adult life, and my youngest sister got a degree in accounting and did the books and things for a car company. So yeah. IG: 09:19 So, returning a little bit to campus. What was residential life like? Who were your friends? You know how did you spend time outside of class? JS: 09:35 Well, we made lifelong friends. IG: 09:36 Yes. JS: 09:37 I pulled this out in case you wanted to see. I did not know how this works, so I did not know what you wanted to see or do. [crosstalk] Oh, whatever works for you. But um, we have, we still have at least a dozen friends or more from-from those days-- that people we met on campus. Um, at the time, and I think it still is-- Harpur College was a geek school, and anytime you were not studying, you knew somebody else was studying and screwing up that bell shaped curve that you had to get over that hump [laughs] it was going to be- your grades were not going to be so good. And so, there was a lot of pressure, and we released pressure in good ways, fun ways, silly ways. I am not even sure they are acceptable today, the guys had, well, we had a curfew. IG: 10:09 Yes. JS: 10:10 The women had a curfew, which was- we were on campus this fall, the ladies were shocked. They said you had a curfew, because my wise guy husband had said to them, oh, we used to lock up the women. And they laughed. And when I was going like this with my arms folded, they looked at me and looked back at him and said, “You are not kidding.” And he said, “No,” he was not kidding. We had a curfew at 11 o'clock, and then the guys went out. When they came back, they would do things like have panty rays. You familiar with those? Oh my gosh, they the guys would come back, they would maybe been to town for a couple drinks or something, and so they were having fun, and they knew all the women were locked up in the dorms, and they come under our windows, and yeah, "We want panties. We want bras" and-and girls would throw them out. And-and I thought it was so dumb and silly. I went down to the basement one time with my roommate, and this is how we bonded and did so many things together. You asked, you know what? What it was like? We went into the lost and found in the laundry room, found some old bras, got some name tags. A lot of these young men had been in summer camps, and they had their names sewn in all their clothes. So, we took some of those labels out of their clothes and sewed them onto the bras and shot them out the window. So, the bra had a guy's name a label on it. And it was really funny, because the next day, some guy would come up to another guy and say, I found your bra last night. [laughs] So we did goofy, silly things like that that were just, you know, let off steam, but did not take too much time. [laughs]So that is kind of stuff we did. IG: 12:10 So, you know, how did you feel about curfews at the time? JS: 12:15 Even at the time, I found it annoying. You found annoying, but you just sort of accepted it, like we did not have any demonstrations about it, or anything like that, but I remember being especially annoyed with him one time. I still married him anyway. Because, because my roommate had been kept out late by her boyfriend. She had been saying to him, "I have to get back for curfew." IG: 12:35 Right. JS: 12:36 And um, he brought her back late, and at 11 o'clock they locked that door, man-- you could not get in. So, you had to ring the buzzer, and the house mother would come to the door. The head resident would come open the door, write you up that you would come late, and you got sent before the judicial review board for your punishment. So, he was on the judicial review board, all right, so he knew me, and he knew that I had in my closet, in my room, things for making cookies. So, he used to everyone, so I will make cookies in that little kitchenette in the basement. So, he sentenced her to make chocolate chip cookies for the entire dorm. And they all thought it was really funny we were- so I helped her. We were down there steaming the whole time while we made these chocolate chip cookies for the whole dorm. [laughs] In a sense, the punishment was silly, goofy, but we were still annoyed. [laughs] IG: 13:32 Right. And apparently that a peer of yours made- JS: 13:36 Right. [laughs] IG: 13:37 -made the judgment- JS: 13:38 Yeah-yeah. IG: 13:41 What were some of the expectations for you, for, maybe for-for you when you went to college, before going to college? So did you think of having career-- what was nor- the norm for women at the time, or maybe you were outside of the norm-- because of your Ecuador experience. JS: 14:00 And, yeah, in my group, and in-in, you know, this lower middle-income kind of thing, not everybody went to college. A lot of them went off and started working right away. But I remember my father, who got drafted out of college and never finished college. I think that is one reason he ended up as a laborer, telling me how proud he was that I was the first person on his side of the family to ever graduate from college, and he was very excited that I was going to college. And so, what expectations were just that I would do well. I had really good grades in high school. I did not have really good grades at Harpur. I had, I struggled to get over that hump on the bell-shaped curve. I remember one time getting 91 points out of 100 and it was a C plus. And I was so upset, I went to see the professor, and I handed him my paper, and I said, "Look, I only missed nine points on the whole test." And he pulled out of his drawer a graph and went through from the graph for my class, and said, "Look at this graph." And I looked at it, and the majority had gotten 90 or above. And he showed me how I fell exactly, just above the hump that he called a C, with that 91 points. And that is how they did the grading. He graded. He-he charted the-the grades of every student along this curve, and that is how you received your grade, not how many points you got on a test, but where you fell on that bell shaped curve. And I remember being so frustrated. [laughs] I did find the actual system there pretty frustrating. Even when I was there, when I look back on, I go, "Huh," but even when I was there, I remember thinking, this is really annoying. [laughs] IG: 15:48 So, at the time, did Harpur College have a reputation of being a tough school academically? JS: 15:55 Yeah-yeah. In fact, my guidance counselor at my high school called Niagara wheatfield. I lived at- the name of the town was actually Wheatfield, right outside of Niagara Falls. I remember my guidance counselor saying to me, “You are not going to get in there.” But I did get accepted and-and so I went. But I think with a 90, with a lower 90 high school average, I was on the lower end of the people accept it at Harpur College. So, I struggled, but I graduated, and some of those other people did not. [laughs] IG: 16:27 So, do you think that they did not graduate? Did Harpur College have also the reputation of being a party school or? JS: 16:34 No, not at all. No, not at all. IG: 16:37 Very studios. JS: 16:37 Yeah, no. IG: 16:40 What did you study? JS: 16:42 Well, mostly Spanish [crosstalk], but I started [crosstalk] IG: 16:46 [inaudible] academically [inaudible] JS: 16:48 Um, it was tough, but it was um, not what I expected. I expected I had come back just from Ecuador, speaking a lot of Spanish, and I wanted to build on that and improve on that. And instead, it was strictly a literature curriculum. It was read-read-read- IG: 17:02 Right-right. In English? JS: 17:08 -and no in Spanish. IG: 17:10 Uh-huh. JS: 17:10 You would read the novels in Spanish, but some professors conducted class in English and some in Spanish. It was, it was a mix. IG: 17:18 Right. JS: 17:19 And so, it was not what I had hoped. I had hoped to get much stronger in my Spanish, and I developed some strengths from the reading, some vocabulary, but not- I did not become [crosstalk], yeah, I- we did not- I took every conversation course they offered while I was there--usually they were only two credit courses, where our courses at the time were four credits. IG: 17:41 Right. JS: 17:42 Because they were on that trimester thing. We had four courses each semester, and each course was worth four credits. So, we did 16 credits per semester, and they only offered these two credit conversation courses, and I think I wound up with a total of eight credits in conversation. So, it was not exactly what I had hoped I still had the opportunity to use the language, but it was different than what I expected. IG: 18:05 Do you have any professors that stand out in your memory as being exceptional? JS: 18:13 Oh, absolutely. A bunch of- IG: 18:15 Give us some examples. JS: 18:16 -bunch of them who are excited in what they did and very good. And there was a fellow who died shortly after I graduated. His last name was Bachelor, Dr. Bachelor, and he was so enthusiastic. He would read these books and say, does not this like tug at your heartstrings. I mean, what motion [crosstalk] IG: 18:33 Remember the books that he went- JS: 18:35 Oh, God. That is tough. IG: 18:36 What were the classes? the literature [crosstalk] JS: 18:40 What were the classes- IG: 18:40 The literature classes? What-what writers did you... JS: 18:45 Oh, my goodness, that is tough. I remember that the categories, I remember we did one whole thing on-on South American literature, one on the Golden Age in Spain. I mean, the courses that they were centered around those particular things. I mean, we read all the classic ones. Read Cervantes, if you can believe it, we read the Quixote from start to finish- IG: 19:07 That is incredible. JS: 19:07 -three-three tones. [laughs] There was a lot of reading, a lot. IG: 19:13 For- you know, how many people did you have, how many students did you have in a class--for example, by today's standards? JS: 19:20 For example, by today's standards, pretty small, I am going to say between 15 and 20 in a class. Yeah-yeah. IG: 19:30 So, what other, what other, you know, faculty really made an outstanding impression? JS: 19:36 Oh, gosh, what I remember, hmmm [crosstalk] IG: 19:41 -friends with anyone after you know- JS: 19:44 Faculty, people? IG: 19:45 Faculty, yes. JS: 19:46 Hmm, I do not know that I did--Jeff did. I think Jeff actually went to a couple of their homes and things like that. But um, no. IG: 19:57 So, you did not, you did not- JS: 19:59 Yeah, I mean, on campus, we would visit with them and go to their office and talk with them. There was a German professor that I loved. I had to drop German after about a year because I could not fit in. If you wanted to graduate with a major in Spanish- IG: 20:14 Right. JS: 20:14 -you had to have another romance language. IG: 20:16 I see. JS: 20:17 And I could not carry three languages and still do all the other required courses that I needed. IG: 20:24 So, which other romance language... JS: 20:26 I picked up Italian. So, I did Italian for a while. IG: 20:29 So, do you think that Romance were strengths of Harper College at the time? JS: 20:35 Romance Languages? IG: 20:36 Yes. JS: 20:38 Well, they have very strong Romance Language department. IG: 20:40 Very strong. JS: 20:41 Oh, yeah, sure, yeah. IG: 20:43 So, if you did not go to faculties' homes, you know what-how you know, what was your recreation like? You- did you belong to any clubs or organizations? How did you unwind? Yeah. JS: 21:01 A couple clubs that- not a lot. Honestly, it was study-study-study. There really, was not- IG: 21:08 Really? JS: 21:08 -a lot of spare time for other things. We-we joined a few organizations, um, I belonged to the Newman Club, but they met maybe once a week for an hour. IG: 21:19 What was Newman Club? JS: 21:19 Newman Club was affiliated with the Catholic Church. Um and um, I cannot even remember what we did together. [laughter] Terrible. What-what sticks in my mind are the things we did together as friends, like that silly stuff I told you about the panty raids and-and, or one time when there was a terrible snowstorm, we all walked all the way from campus into Downtown Binghamton and found the only restaurant still open, and-and, you know, had had a good time there. IG: 21:23 I see. What was Binghamton like at the time? Was it very rural or...? JS: 22:01 No. Actually, I think it had more greater population than it does now. Actually, did not have the state- the tall state office tower buildings yet, or anything like that, but it was a busy place. But they did not- there was not too much town and gown mingling. They did not really care for Harpur College students. They-they always referred to us as the Harpur hippies. IG: 22:25 Oh, I see, yes. JS: 22:26 Um, when I went to the public library in Downtown Binghamton to get a library card, and she was very friendly and said, you know, fill out this form, do not worry. And I had put, you know, Box 187 Harpur College. And she went, "Oh, Harpur College," her whole demeanor, her whole tone, everything changed. I remember going for an interview for a job after I first graduated, and some kids hanging out of school, and some kids hanging out with school bus go, "There she is. There she is. That is the Harpur hippie. That is the Harpur" and I did not look like a hippie other than that. I had long hair, but that was about it. IG: 23:01 That is, that is very interesting, and it opens up a number of questions. So, you would go to the public library, would you, you know, would you use the library on campus? And what was it like? JS: 23:17 Oh, yeah, I go to the public library for novels and things like that. IG: 23:21 Yeah. JS: 23:21 I go to the one on Harpur College for everything else. All my school needs, whatever books we were supposed to read, or if I did not understand something I was reading, I would go there to look for an analysis of what I was reading. It was I looked at the one on campus much more academically. And by the way, there only was one I bring now, like I have lost track. Everybody has a library. The science building, there was just one, and it was all open stacks. And that is not true with all everything anymore. IG: 23:51 Going back to Harpur hippie. So how did the college acquire this reputation? Was it for the anti-war activism, do you think? JS: 24:02 I think in large part, I the first I remember hearing of Harper College back home in Niagara Falls or in the town of Wheatfield [chuckles] was when they sent people to protest the house on Un-American Activities Committee hearings in Washington, DC, and that is when they started to gain that reputation that they were this extreme liberal group, they did not use the term progressive back then or anything. But I remember people say- yeah, at that time, it was a small college. The reason I picked it is I applied at three state universities. First of all, only state universities, because they were the cheapest. IG: 24:41 Yes. JS: 24:42 And then when I was accepted at all three Albany, Buffalo and Harpur, I picked Harpur because it was the smallest, and you asked me about the class size- IG: 24:50 Yes. JS: 24:50 -that had, that had a lot of meaning for me, the fact that there was a lot of interpersonal exchange with the professors and all that kind of stuff. And to this day, I really appreciated that we got to know our professors. IG: 25:01 Were your parents involved at all in your college decisions? JS: 25:07 To the extent that they said I could apply anywhere I wanted, as long as it said SUNY in front of it. IG: 25:13 Okay. JS: 25:13 That was a financial. That was a financial. IG: 25:16 Did they know about Harpur's sort of liberal reputation? JS: 25:22 I am sure they have, they had heard of it. They were both well-read but-but I do not think they care. IG: 25:27 They were fine about it. JS: 25:28 Yeah, I do not think they cared one way or another. They did go with me once to visit the campus before I started there. IG: 25:35 So, what did you do after you graduated? You said that you found a job as a school teacher. Did you go- so what was your just career and trajectory like? In essence- JS: 25:52 Wow! That is, um... IG: 25:54 Did you- were you a Spanish school teacher all your life, or... JS: 25:58 Yeah, pretty much, although once I was, um into education--a flyer came across my desk for- from Nazareth College, which is based up in Rochester. IG: 26:10 Right. Right. JS: 26:11 But they were offering what they called satellite courses in Ithaca for English as a second language, and I always enjoyed that. In fact, I had volunteered to teach some kids at the public library who were who had come to this country, who needed English as a second language. And I enjoyed it. And I thought, well, that would be interesting. So, I took those courses and got certified in ESL as well. So um, that did me well, because I only worked part time for a while when my kids were little, and I had been working 80 percent at Union Endicott, when this flyer came across my desk, and then there was an opening out in Owego full time. And so, I moved out there, and they started using me as ESL as well, since I had my certification. And then when I retired from teaching Spanish out in Owego, um SUNY Cortland called and said they- their modern language department taught both Spanish and English as a Second Language, and they could use me with both certifications and all that kind of stuff. So, to this day, I still work part time for SUNY Cortland, and my ESL still serves me well, so I use both. I use. IG: 27:25 Excellent. JS: 27:25 Yes. IG: 27:27 So, do you think um, that um, you mentioned that the school had a very strong academic reputation? How do you think that you know, it shaped you for your, you know, for your future life? Do you think it- could we say that-that it- JS: 27:49 Oh, sure. IG: 27:50 -a formative that you had a formative experience there, because some people just go through college without [crosstalk] JS: 27:55 Yeah, I think some of the people who graduated did so because they learned I had to stick to it and really keep working hard and um, and it forced me to, create, develop that kind of persona- IG: 27:56 Yes. JS: 27:59 -where I am going to stick to it and I am going to get it and I- you know, I am going to get over that stupid hump on the bell shape. It certainly shaped me that way. For me that way. IG: 28:26 Do you think that the liberal arts, you know, academics, open doors that-that would not have been opened otherwise, or is that fair to say? JS: 28:36 Open minds- IG: 28:37 Open minds, open minds... JS: 28:38 -for sure. I to this day, I highly recommend that people have a kind of liberal arts education. You need to know about everything in this world. And when you get a liberal arts education, you are exposed to psychology, sociology, you name it. We had to have a little bit of everything in the first two years before we could go on and specialize. And I think everybody needs that if you are going to understand each other and understand other programs. And yeah, I would highly recommend it. IG: 28:42 Is the open mindedness, what attracted you to your husband when you met him? JS: 29:22 Open mindedness. Is he open minded? [laughs] IG: 29:27 I am assuming. Well, I do not know. What attracted me to Jeff? I would say no. I would say more his well- yes, he had to be open minded if he was close minded. No, absolutely not. That would, that would be a detraction so that so I guess maybe you are right. I had not thought about it that way. It is more his gentleness, kindness, concern for other people. That kind of stuff is what really attracted me to him. How did you meet? JS: 29:53 Um, he was a terrible language student, and this is true. [laughs] This is how we met. And I sat here, and he sat there, and he kept moving my arm because he did not understand anything the professor was saying. And he poked me [inaudible] "What did she say? What did she say?" So, I quick translated into English for him, and he would peek and see what-what I had done for homework. He did not get to move my arms during tests, though, or-or he would find out when I was going to the language lab. That was part of our classes too. So, he could sit beside me and because you would have these earphones on headsets, and he would say, "Okay, what did they say? What they say?" [laughs] And then, I remember coming back to the dorm one night and seeing him there, that guy in the Spanish class. Who does not know any Spanish? IG: 30:42 When did you meet? When- remember, were you a freshman, or... JS: 30:46 Oh, yeah, it was first semester. Because it was so small--the summer, the summer sessions were small because once you get accepted there, then you can pick what semesters you are going to attend. And many people just chose to attend two semesters a year rather than do the whole three in part because of the war, they did not want to graduate early, as long as they were a student, they still had a deferment. Um, so um, some people would go all three semesters. Some people would only go two semesters, and the summer semester, therefore was small, and you got to know almost everybody on campus, and he was living in the same dorm as I-- Johnson. And one wing, they called this a co-ed dorm. I know this isn't how it works now, but one wing was women and one wing was men, and the men were not allowed on the women's floor. The Women's were not allowed on the men's side, but that was our co-ed dorm. And after 11:00 curfew, there was some dispute as to who went where, but I seem to recall, the women were only allowed in the upper lounge, and the men were allowed in the lower area where the rec room and the snack machines were. Um, I guess it depended on which dorm you were in, because whoever was not allowed where the snack machines were would yell down and actually drop money and ask them to buy candy bars or something. We would throw them up. [laughs] So he was in the same dorm, so I saw him every time was coming and going, and then he was also in my experimental psychology class too. So. IG: 32:24 Was he allowed to visit you in your dorm? JS: 32:30 Well, I remember [crosstalk] he was, he was living in the same dorm, but he was only allowed in a men's wing, and we were allowed in the women's wing. IG: 32:36 Oh, in other words, he could not come into the women's room. JS: 32:40 No. IG: 32:40 No, I did not [crosstalk] JS: 32:41 I am going to say once, I do not remember exactly how often, but I am going to say about once a month they had open house. But even then, even then, if say I-I invited him to my room, which I was allowed to do during open house. When he came up, we were supposed to stand at the entrance to that floor and yell "Man on the floor" so that anybody could close their doors if they knew a man was coming through. So yeah, we did that. We yelled "Man on the floor," [laughs] and then he could come in and visit. IG: 33:17 Did anybody think of contesting those rules, or you did not really... JS: 33:23 I do not know. I remember when they opened the Hinman complex. Again, Jeff might be able to answer this better than I, with him being on a Ju-judicial review board and things like that. At some point the decision was made, and I do not know by whom to allow that to be a co-ed dorm where- again, only women in one suite and one floor, but we were, we were allowed to make our own rules. And so, we called them the self regs, because somebody first asked me which dorm I had lived in over there. And I said, "No, we call it the self reg" so um, [laughs] we actually made rules that-that did away with curfew for women over there. That was the that was a first on campus when we first moved into the Hinman complex. So that is when it started to change while we were still there. [laughs] IG: 34:19 That is incredible. So, did you feel empowered? JS: 34:22 Absolutely. [laughs] Yep. IG: 34:27 So, getting back to Jeff, so how you know- how did your relationship develop? You know, did you become girlfriend and boyfriend in college or... JS: 34:41 Yeah-yeah. IG: 34:41 did you [inaudible] after graduation? JS: 34:43 He invited me on a hayride, they actually had a hayride on campus. Yeah, that was our first date. Was on a hayride. And, yeah, it was on again, off again. Because this is the first thing that came to my mind when you said open mindedness. Jeff was Jewish and I was Catholic. IG: 34:57 Yes. JS: 34:58 Um, and it was not seemed to be a problem for my parents. My father was Presbyterian or something, and as far as my mother was concerned, that meant they were a mixed marriage, because we used to, they used to make fun of me because my mom called it a mixed marriage, and to most of the kids on campus, a mixed marriage was black and white or something like that. So, but we have done that DNA test, and Jeff is something like 97.6 percent Ashkenazi Jew. I mean, there was no mingling, and his parents were beside themselves that he was going to hang out with a "shiksa." [laughs] And so it was on and off again. We go out for three, four weeks. And then he-he would actually call and say, you know, we have to break up because, you know you are not Jewish and all this kind of stuff. And then he called me again, and he said, you want to go see the movie on campus. And I would say, "Is this a date?" He said, "Oh no, absolutely not." I said, "Oh, well, then who else is going," "Well, nobody else." And I say, "Sounds like a date to me?" "No, it is not a date." [laughs] So that is what I thought at first when you said, open minded. IG: 36:10 No-no [inaudible] JS: 36:11 It really did not play a role one way or another. [laughs] IG: 36:16 So how long did it take you before he- before you became a couple? JS: 36:23 That- it was definite that was on again off again, I am going to say, a couple of years before he decided, okay, it is on. He will tell you; it was my red hair. [laughs] I used to have red hair that he just could not resist. I do not know. [laughs] IG: 36:40 So that that is, so that is, that is very interesting, and we are- I will ask him this question, but where is he from? JS: 36:52 He is from Long Island. IG: 36:53 From Long Island. JS: 36:54 We were different economic strata as well. His dad was a CPA, and did very well. IG: 37:01 Yeah. JS: 37:02 And that bothered his parents, too. I am positive, but. IG: 37:08 So, um, I think I am just thinking of what else I can ask you-- so-so you know, did your-your lives, your lives continued um, in Binghamton? You stayed both in Binghamton and your husband, found work here, and you settled down. Um, did you continue having ties with the college itself? I know that you have friends, but did you have occasion to, you know, visit for some kind of alumni event, or... JS: 37:49 We still do, we still do. I think that is probably how you found this. We still go over. Yeah um, there have always been plays to see, concerts to do. And as we came to know more and more people in the community, even they would be a draw. For example, my son's friend was in the music program, and so we would go over whenever he was doing a recital, even if it was for his thesis or something, you know. So, there were all kinds of reasons to-to draw us over there. We have done partnerships with they have partnership program with foreign students, and we have done that several times. IG: 38:28 Could you explain that? JS: 38:29 Well, um, you just [inaudible] as an alumni. They will send you things, saying, "Would you help out with this program or something?" And if you say yes, then they match you up with-with a student. For example, there was a student, Shen-Shen Zhou, who's now going for her doctorate here. Who- when she first came here from China, they said, "Well, she has no family in the area? You would be in lieu of her family." If there is a holiday, and you know, there is- campuses emptying out, have her over. So, we had her for Thanksgiving, Christmas, things like that. And eventually she met an American guy and married him, but we went to the wedding and-and there was another young lady from Pakistan that we got matched up with, and she is now living in Boston, and she is- we are together on Facebook. We do not see her as much as we see Shen-Shen, but. IG: 39:21 So-so um, you know, what was your activity with the students? Like, did you take them out to restaurants, or [crosstalk] JS: 39:30 We brought them here. IG: 39:31 You brought them here. JS: 39:32 Brought them here. [crosstalk] No-no, they lived on campus. IG: 39:36 But to have dinner here for the family. JS: 39:38 Yeah. Uh-hmm. IG: 39:40 Over what period of time? JS: 39:42 Depended on who they matched us up with and how long they stayed here. IG: 39:47 Of course, was this, after your- first of all, how many children and did- went to Binghamton, where did your- JS: 39:59 [crosstalk] our own children? IG: 40:01 Yes-yes. JS: 40:02 My son went to- well, he started at Broome Community College. IG: 40:06 Yes. JS: 40:06 And graduated from Ithaca- IG: 40:08 I see. JS: 40:09 -in communications. So, he works for Channel 34 news station- IG: 40:13 Oh! That is great. JS: 40:14 -here, he is a news producer. He is not on camera, but he does- he makes commercials and all that kind of stuff, which is kind of fun, because when I see really bad one on TV, you know those car commercials that are so hokey, I will call and say, "Did you do that commercial?" [inaudible] "Mom, we do whatever the customer wants." [laughs] "I know what you are going to say." And our daughter that you met her already lives about five minutes down the road and is a secretary in the guidance office at Union Endicott High School. IG: 40:44 Oh! JS: 40:44 So, they are both- both local, which is very nice. That means our grandchildren are local. IG: 40:51 So, they did not go to Binghamton University. JS: 40:53 No-no. IG: 40:54 I misunderstood. JS: 40:56 No, they were there. They know of it, but yes, no, neither one of them attended classes there. No. IG: 41:02 So apart from the foreign student program, do you look upon Binghamton sort of as a cultural center? JS: 41:12 Oh, yeah, for sure. IG: 41:14 After graduation. JS: 41:14 Yeah, we have gone to plays, you know, orchestra type performances, some alumni events. Yeah, whatever we see is going on over there. We will, we will stop by, and we are sort of a hub for all these friends I told you about who now live everywhere else, like we really got together this fall. For many of them graduated in 1967. Jeff and I graduated in (19)68 but some of them went through that- went faster through the trimester program, and so this was their 50th, so they wanted to do something for their 50th. So, we had a house full, and we all met over on campus and attended some of the activities there. IG: 42:03 So-so did you know, actually, did you have a vision of what your life after graduation would be like? Or did it kind of just fall into place? JS: 42:19 For me, I cannot. I know a lot of people plan-plan-plan for me, it just kind of fell into place. After Ecuador, I decided I wanted to do something with Spanish. I was not even sure what, but I sort of started volunteering to work with kids and enjoyed the teaching. And right about the time we were ready to graduate, or just before, they created the MAT program, and it was like an opening, okay, we could do that. We both managed to get jobs teaching-- Jeff more because- IG: 42:47 [inaudible] MAT program? JS: 42:48 Masters in the Art of Teaching. IG: 42:49 I see. JS: 42:50 I think they still have it. IG: 42:51 Yeah. JS: 42:52 And, I mean, it has changed over the years. First, they had Spanish, then they did not, then they did. I think it was back. But Jeff, more so than I was looking at the teaching end of it, because you could still get a deferment from the war for being a teacher, and that was important, so important to so many of those young guys. And that is how he ended up in it. I just sort of naturally gravitated toward it because I liked it. And since we both got jobs here and had decided to get married. Right after we got our bachelors, we just stayed here and finished our masters. And his parents tried to get him to go to Long Island, but every time he goes down there and we get stuck in traffic, or there would be long lines, he would say, "No, I really do not want to live there." [laughs] IG: 43:40 So, you know, how has- I am just wondering, how has Binghamton University changed over time? Harpur College changed over time in your perception of a better school, a better experience, or is there something missing? JS: 43:57 It is different. [laughs] I mean, there are good things and there are bad things, if you recall, one of the things I liked the best was the smallness of it and how you could get to know everybody. That is no longer true. But then there are a lot more opportunities in so many different fields than there used to be. There did not used to be a school of engineering, there did not used to be a school of nursing. There did not- you know, all these now that there was one in pharmacy, they never used to have all those opportunities um, but it is so big now you can get lost over there. So, it, it is different. I mean, there is there is good and-and bad from- IG: 44:36 Do you think most of your graduating class did well for themselves? The majority? JS: 44:41 Yeah-yeah. Well, certainly, all the ones we have kept in touch with- IG: 44:46 Kept in touch with. JS: 44:47 Absolutely. IG: 44:48 The ones with a strong liberal arts education? JS: 44:51 Mm-Hmm, for sure. IG: 44:53 So, what are the most important lessons that you have learned from the experience of going to Harpur College? JS: 45:01 Goodness, what is the most- lessons. Huh. [laughs] I mean, I certainly learned a lot about how to deal with life. Um, I learned it- opened up my world. Remember, I came from that tiny little family in Niagara Falls. It started really with the exchange student experience, but it continued with-with Harpur. I mean, again, I found a culture that I was not familiar with. They caught- they actually called me for a while. Maybe he will remember the funny little upstate girl, because most of the people on campus were from downstate, and even that in and of itself, I found bizarre that they called me up upstate when they said they were coming upstate, when they were coming to Binghamton, to me, coming from Niagara Falls, coming to a place that borders with Pennsylvania, is downstate, and they said, "No-no-no-no-no, you do not understand it all." If you are anywhere north of Yonkers, you are upstate. In fact, even if you are in Yonkers, you are upstate. [laughs] So it was a culture that I was totally unfamiliar with, and was honestly a little scary at first. It was a different accent. They were much more outgoing and much quicker to criticize. I was kind of inhibited no longer, but I really was kind of inhibited and did not speak up, and learned to do all of that there. So that guess that partially answer your question. IG: 46:31 Right. So, it is kind of an acculturation. JS: 46:34 Absolutely, yep. IG: 46:37 And I think you know, broadening experience. Um, what you know, what was the proudest memory from being at Harpur College? JS: 46:50 That I graduated. [laughs] IG: 46:52 That you graduated. JS: 46:53 There were times when I was not sure that was going to happen. When I saw that a 91 was a c plus, you know, that I made it, but maybe that sticks out, you know, more than anything else, and my father coming to me that and telling me that I was the first person in his family to have graduated from college. Now my mom did, but he met on his side of the family. So. IG: 47:21 Do you have any sort of concluding remarks? We still have your husband to interview. That is another [crosstalk] JS: 47:29 Well, see if he says the opposite of everything. [laughs] Third speaker: 47:34 I have a question. JS: 47:35 Sure. Third speaker: 47:36 You studied Spanish. Was there any Spanish speaking person in campus as a student at that time? JS: 47:44 Yeah. Third speaker: 47:45 Like someone from Spain or Latin America? JS: 47:47 Well, there was a fellow that lived in our dorm that we were friends with. I do not know what happened to a Māori Cruise. He was from Cuba. Third speaker: 47:54 Okay. JS: 47:55 We hung out with him. Yeah, I encountered other ones, but I do not remember their names. Third speaker: 48:01 [crosstalk] some- JS: 48:02 Some, but not a lot. Third speaker: 48:04 How about Black? Were there any [crosstalk] JS: 48:06 Some, some, again, not a lot. One of our best friends was a guy by the name of [inaudible], and he was from what at the time was Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, and he had an interesting life. He was already in his 30s, but he was living on campus with all us youngsters, um trying to get his education, and eventually got his masters up at McGill because he needed a degree from some country within the British Commonwealth, so that when he went back to Zimbabwe, he could be successful, and I do not understand what happened to him, but he ended up in Belgium, I think so. I think there was no place for educated Blacks at the time in Rhodesia, Zimbabwe. I cannot remember exactly when it became Zimbabwe, but it was still Rhodesia when he was with us, but again, not a lot, not a lot. IG: 49:05 So, with the exception of you know, you opened a whole other set of questions, but with the exception of you who have, who had international experience before coming to college, do you think the rest of the student community was pretty, you know, white and insular, and mostly came from downstage. JS: 49:27 In my mind, a bunch of white downstairs. [laughs] IG: 49:30 Yeah. JS: 49:32 In my mind, yeah. IG: 49:33 So, there were very few international students or students of color [inaudible] JS: 49:38 I hope that is accurate, but that is how I remember it. Yeah. I mean, where are these folks? Go ahead, just look through the pictures. Well, this- these are Harpur College pages. At the time, Harpur College bought a place out in Halsey Valley--beyond Owego. And because Jeff was on the judicial review board, he knew who to talk to-to get the keys, and we would go out there, dorm room. I am sorry, you guys probably cannot see very much here. These are all Polaroids. Do you remember back when people used to do Polaroids? Jeff me, Jeff and me, Jeff and me. But this is at that place out in Halsey Valley. They called it Lake Empire. But what I am looking for- here we are--this was a duck- a boat race on the Susquehanna. Everybody had gone down there. Look at their faces. I do not know, folks. I am not seeing a lot of different ethnicities here. Well, there was Mach- there was Machana. We were good friends with him. He was, yeah-yeah. That is, let me see, that is Machana, yeah-yeah. IG: 50:55 For the faculty, yeah, international, did you have- JS: 50:59 Yes. IG: 51:00 Yes, so your Spanish department. Where did they come from? JS: 51:06 Senora Borgel was from Spain, itself, mostly Spain. One from Germany. IG: 51:19 Spanish teacher, Spanish- JS: 51:20 No, that was psychology, one from Switzerland. That was sociology. Where else they were from? IG: 51:37 Did having that kind of international, small presence, you know, connect you to the wider world, or change your view of- JS: 51:48 No not too much. IG: 51:49 Not too much. JS: 51:50 A little bit, but not a lot. Yeah, no, so you can see, yeah, you are right. They were mostly white, huh! Studying. Even when we were relaxing, we were studying. [laughs] IG: 52:09 You were studying. JS: 52:10 That is how I remember it. Somebody's always screwing up the bell-shaped curve pressure, but we are still good friends with him, with her, with her, her, both of them. They live up in Syracuse. Most of us met our spouses there. IG: 52:29 Oh, really. JS: 52:30 Yeah, kind of lost touch with her and her, but our resident, our head resident in our dorm, had was married and had a baby. That is that was his little one. His first name was Dean. Is that a bizarre name for a campus? Think about this. There were so many people that would say to him every time they saw him, hello, Dean Porter. And I know they thought the Dean was his title, not his name, but it was his name. He was not a dean. He was just the resident that had resident. IG: 53:07 Where was this photograph taken on campus? JS: 53:09 No, they, they took a break one spring and went, during spring break, went camping in the not Great Smokies, Shenandoah-Shenandoah area, down in Virginia. IG: 53:27 So, did-did anybody- you did not have any foreign study programs at the time at Harpur College? JS: 53:34 Yeah, they did go, yeah, um, one of the young ladies here, one of my roommates, went to- they had a program in Salamanca, Spain. IG: 53:43 Yeah. JS: 53:43 And, and they also had one in France. I am trying remember the name of the city. It will come to me later. Yeah, there were, there were programs like that where you could go for a semester and study abroad. But that was expensive. And, yeah, I never went because I did not have the money, yeah. IG: 54:02 Subsequently, you went traveling and you saw these places, or some of those places. JS: 54:06 Most of them, not-not-not Spain, so much. Jeff and I have been down- well, we have hosted many, many exchange students here in this house, long term exchange students-- mostly wrote rotary students, but from a couple other organizations as well. And we have had four from Brazil, so we went down to Brazil and visited them. While we were there, we went over to Argentina, just because we were close. IG: 54:29 Wonderful. JS: 54:30 We could see we have been to Mexico a whole bunch of times. I would go shopping. He would make fun of me, because when I was teaching, I would buy all the little trinkets on the street and bring them back for prizes and things in class. And I remember one time having a whole bag of them. And we got to customs, and Jeff and that guy said, "Well, what did you buy…? IG: 54:51 Yeah. JS: 54:51 -in Mexico." And Jeff looked at the guy and went, "Junk." And the guy just said, "Okay, I passed through." [laughs] So to this day, I still tease them about junk that was not junk, that was stuff for my students. [laughs] IG: 55:05 But you kept up your language through these travels. JS: 55:08 Yeah. So yeah, use it some that way. Yeah. We also get together with other Spanish teachers. IG: 55:14 Oh, that is [inaudible] JS: 55:15 Although we retired teachers are starting to lose it. We-we first got together when we retired, and we would speak all in Spanish during lunch, and then it got to be just a half hour. And the last time we forced ourselves to do 10 minutes. [laughs] It is not quite what it used to be, yeah. IG: 55:32 Well, I can understand that language suffers from misuse. JS: 55:37 I keep it up more on campus. IG: 55:39 Yes. JS: 55:40 When I go up to Cortland- and I go into the Foreign Language Department, we are much more likely to address each other. [crosstalk] Yeah. IG: 55:41 I see. So, any concluding remarks? Do you have any outstanding memories? JS: 55:55 No, the only thing that sticks in my mind, and I am not sure it is where you want to go with this, but how nice it was back then. You know how people are talking right now about this big deal, free tuition, free college, tuition, everything. We basically had that at Harpur College-- they only accepted you if you had an average in the 90s or so. And we used to take something called the regents exam, regions, scholarship exam, which no longer exists, and we all scored high enough on it that we all got a regent scholarship. And that regent scholarship paid our tuition. Our tuition was only $200 a semester, and but that meant for me, as a kid from a lower income family with five children, with just a factory worker dad and so on, I could go to college with no problem. All my tuition was covered. It was free. In that sense, room and board was more. I borrowed money for some of the room and board, and my parents paid for some of it, but it made it relatively painless to get through college, to get a college education, so that you could rise, in other words, you could have a mobile, social, economic society. And so, it is quite doable. It is quite possible. And I feel really strongly about that, that we could do it if we had the political will. I mean, it was done. It is not a first. We had it, [laughs] and I am very grateful for that, or I would not be here. [laughs] You know, IG: 56:52 That is what it should be. JS: 57:29 Yeah, so and Harpur College had that for sure. IG: 57:34 And most, do you think that most kids had- were there on scholarship, or... JS: 57:40 I' d say most of the kids on campus had a scholarship just because of our averages. Yeah-yeah. Jeff did, I did. IG: 57:46 Academic scholarships. Third speaker: 57:48 And that also made a huge difference, of course, campus life, because everyone was intellectually- IG: 57:56 motivated, Third speaker: 57:57 Same level. IG: 57:59 yeah-yeah. for sure. So that is it. Well, good. Third speaker: 58:05 Thank you very much. JS: 58:07 Thank you. It has been fun talking about it. You know, and trying to make me think of things I have not thought about them. I will leave that here if you want something. Oh, this would be a better indicator you were asking about ethnicities and stuff. Just flip through it. This is the, yeah, look, it looks all white to me. Gosh, I never thought about that. Yeah, holy cow. IG: 58:37 I think that was probably standard at the time. Do not you think? JS: 58:41 I guess, I guess how sad. Kept touch with some of these people. Yeah, you are welcome to skim through it to see what you can find. But they are, they are broken up by- IG: 59:02 Year? JS: 59:03 No, by majors. And so, I wonder if there would be a difference, depending on whether you are looking at humanities or sciences or I will bet you find a difference between male and female. Betcha-betcha [bet you]. Find most of the females in the humanities part. Third speaker: 59:21 Absolutely. JS: 59:24 Anyway. IG: 59:25 I love this. [laughs] JS: 59:28 You want me, let me go get- yes, that was the other thing too. Do you know a lot of schools at that time were still insistent that everybody dress family for dinner? We were Harpur hippies. They did not have a dress code. You could wear jeans. IG: 59:42 She breaks the mode. JS: 59:43 At night and-and that is a little bit what-what they look like. [laughs] IG: 59:48 Is it a little bit what you look like? JS: 59:50 Oh, yeah. Jeans- IG: 59:51 Glasses, jeans. JS: 59:53 We all, we all, we were all nerds. We all have glasses. We- IG: 59:57 She has sunglasses. JS: 59:58 No, yeah, that is different. IG: 59:59 [inaudible] JS: 1:00:01 But we were all in jeans, yeah. IG: 1:00:03 Boots. JS: 1:00:04 Yeah, I did not do boots, IG: 1:00:06 Yeah. Okay. JS: 1:00:07 Yeah, let me go get the other guy and relieve him. IG: 1:00:11 Thank you so much. JS: 1:00:12 Send him your way. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Janice L. Strauss Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Strauss, Janice L. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Janice is a Niagara Falls native. She worked as a Spanish teacher in Broome County. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Janice Strauss.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-12-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:14 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5112e9b6211742e8470d4ab3d66bed61.mp3 48d484734d2fc790298073eeef97224a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e6952d772bf48e6bc719239f4c6a2ae8.jpg 6dfb4cb3bb3c63d8ba910d55898efafa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-01-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Barry Polsky Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Barry graduated with a degree in Psychology from Harpur. His career spanned different professions. He worked as researcher for a pharmaceutical firm; as a software engineer after earning a graduate degree in computer science. He drove a cab and before retirement worked as a high school math teacher. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Barry Polsky Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 3 January 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) BP: 00:03 Travel will be difficult. IG: 00:04 Travel will be difficult tomorrow. It is the snow is starting at four o'clock in the morning. BP: 00:10 Right. Four or five. IG: 00:11 Four or five. We will figure it out. So, for the record, please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are. BP: 00:35 My name is Barry Polsky. I was born on November 25, 1946 and we are in Somerville, Massachusetts. IG: 00:48 Where did you grow up? BP: 00:50 I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. IG: 00:53 And tell us a little bit about your upbringing and what was the occupation of your parents? BP: 01:04 Yeah, so my parents were both immigrants from the Soviet Union. They both came here in the 1920s separately, I was amazed when I found out, when I was young that they met here and they were both from the Soviet Union. And my- neither of them had much education. My father eventually became the manager of what we used to call an appetizing store, which is a little grocery store that sells smoked fish like lox and herring and kippered salmon. And he had these big jars of candy and big blocks of halva and cheese. It was a wonderful store. It was on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, and he managed the store for 25 years, and when he was 60, he bought the store from the owner, and he owned it for six years, until he passed away. My mother was a housewife when we were out of the house. I think my mother got some jobs here and there, but basically, she was a housewife and raised us, and we were, I would say, lower middle class. IG: 02:22 Where did you go to high school? BP: 02:23 Midwood High School in Flatbush. IG: 02:26 I know where that is. Did your parents encourage your pursuing a college degree? BP: 02:36 It was mandatory. IG: 02:38 Mandatory. BP: 02:39 Yes. It was just assumed. Unlike my two older sisters, who could have done whatever they wanted, my parents did not push them in any direction. I was assumed. It was assumed I would go to college, and in fact, later on, when I left graduate school, my father said, I will be disappointed if you do not get a PhD. IG: 03:01 So, is this what you did? BP: 03:03 Yes, I went to University of Rochester for graduate school in brain research, psychology and brain research. IG: 03:11 Oh, my goodness. BP: 03:12 And I got a master's degree. And then at some point, I decided that graduate school was taking too much out of my personal life to continue, and so I just left after a master's degree. And actually, you may not, you probably do not know this, I came back to Binghamton, and I was a laboratory teaching assistant in psychology for a year and a half at Binghamton. IG: 03:41 So, what was your occupation, throughout the years? BP: 03:46 I have had many careers, several careers. So, after I was the teaching assistant at Binghamton for a year and a half, I went back to New York City, and I was briefly a programmer, computer programmer for AT&T. IG: 03:49 Tell us about it. What years were the- BP: 04:05 1970 I believe. And then in (19)71 I got a job as a research assistant at Hoffmann-La Roche [F. Hoffmann-La Roche Ltd], the big pharmaceutical company. And I worked there as a research assistant for eight years, laboratory research. Then I went to Israel for 10 weeks, and when I got back to New York, yeah, when I got back to New York, I realized I just did not like New York City anymore, and I knew some people in Boston, and I just up and went to Boston. I decided I want to live in Boston, and I have never regretted it. I love it here. And I kind of bounced around. Did not quite know what I wanted to do. I was a bus boy. I was the- I did various things. And then I settled into being a full time Boston cab driver for about five years. And when I was approaching 40, I decided that I needed a real career, and I read a book called 90 jobs for the (19)90s, and it said that computer programmers would be in great demand. So, I went back to computer programming. I went to Harvard Extension School and got a computer science degree, and then I worked as a computer programmer for about 15 years. IG: 05:36 Can I ask what area I mean, did your programming in-in-in the (19)70s, in the early (19)70s, [crosstalk] inform your, did you do- BP: 05:47 I did cobalt programming in the (19)70, business programming, cobalt program, right in graduate school, in the program at Harvard Extension, I learned C, not C plus-plus just C. IG: 06:01 Just C. BP: 06:03 And I got a job with a firm in Rhode Island doing kind of customer service and a little programming. So, what was their niche? IG: 06:10 I see. BP: 06:10 I did that for about a year and a half, and then I was offered a job up here in Cambridge with a company called Computer Sports Systems. And they were very interesting company. They had an interesting niche. They invented automatic scoring for bowling alleys. If you go bowling- IG: 06:34 Yeah. BP: 06:34 You do not have to score by hand. IG: 06:36 Oh! BP: 06:37 There is a machine that detects the number of pins you knock down, and it projects your score overhead, and that is on all with software. And this company invented that software that did the automatic. IG: 06:50 So, what was your role in [crosstalk] helped design. BP: 06:53 I helped design and maintain those programs. IG: 06:56 Oh! That is very interesting. Who were some of your clients? BP: 07:03 Oh, well, we worked with Brunswick, which was the main, one of the main manufacturers of bowling equipment. I think I heard of- Yeah, and actually bowling alleys, big bowling alleys, would be our clients. And after a while, there was not a lot of business anymore for that. So, they tried a big project to get the company going again. The project petered out. And when that project failed, they laid off just every programmer, except one, and I was laid off. And- IG: 07:40 And what year was this? BP: 07:41 19- Let us see, I think 2003,2003 or (20)04, and I did not have another an appetite to pound the pavement looking for another job where I looked at a computer screen all day. IG: 08:01 Right. BP: 08:02 And so, I wanted more interaction. So, after doing a couple of stops and starts, I decided to become a teacher. And eventually I landed a job as a high school math teacher at Everett High School, which is a suburb of Boston. IG: 08:19 Did you go through a special program? BP: 08:21 I tried to get into a couple of training programs, and I could not get in. But in one of the interviewers said, you know, you have an interesting resume, just send your resume out to people; do not go to a training program. So, I- the Boston Globe had an ad for Everett High School wanting math teachers. I sent in my resume, and two weeks before the years begin, they dropped me in for an interview, and they hired me the next day. IG: 08:47 Oh, wonderful. BP: 08:48 So, I sort of started right off the street, and I worked there for 10 years. IG: 08:55 Did you enjoy the experience? I did. I thought was very rewarding. It was stressful, and it was the hardest job that I have ever had, especially the first year, because I was checking homework one day, and I, you know, somebody was not getting it. And I said, "Well, did you read the book?" And he said, "I cannot learn from the book." So, I decided the book was not good enough, and I wrote my own book of notes for all the lessons that year that I distributed to the students. So that I was working, you asked my wife I was working day and night, but I got it done, and later on, it became less and less work as I had my lessons planned. Lesson plans- what grades did you teach? BP: 09:40 Pre-calculus, juniors and seniors. IG: 09:45 And what kind of neighborhood is Everett? BP: 09:47 Very diverse. IG: 09:49 Very diverse. BP: 09:50 Working class. IG: 09:51 Working class. BP: 09:51 Yeah. Um, basically working class and diverse in terms of their Haitians and Brazilians, and Central Americans and African Americans, and, you know, probably maybe 50 to 60 percent white, and then the rest very diverse. And it was very rewarding, but toward the end of my 10 years, it became more and more stressful, and I think the main reason was cell phones in the classroom. IG: 10:24 Was what? BP: 10:24 Cell phone. IG: 10:25 Oh, yes. BP: 10:27 You just could not get the students away from their cell phones. And I would have a rule. IG: 10:33 Right. BP: 10:33 But it would be very hard to enforce it, because if they start, if they finished their work, I would- they would- cell phones would come out. I would say, no cell phones. They would say, I finished my work. IG: 10:43 Right. BP: 10:43 It was very hard to control. IG: 10:45 Yeah. BP: 10:46 So, I was- when I retired after 10 years, I had a small pension. IG: 10:50 When-when- so when did you retire? BP: 10:51 Okay. Yeah. So, I was hired in 2006 and I worked until, I guess, June of 2016. IG: 11:01 So that is very recent. BP: 11:03 Yeah, I am retired about a year and a half, almost two years. IG: 11:06 So how are you enjoying retirement? BP: 11:10 I love it. IG: 11:11 You love it. BP: 11:12 I love it. Mainly. One of the main reasons I love it is that I found the perfect retirement job. IG: 11:19 Which- what is- and what is that? BP: 11:22 I am a big baseball fan and I am a Big Red Sox fan. IG: 11:26 Yeah. BP: 11:27 I have become a tour guide at Fenway Park. IG: 11:30 Oh, wow. BP: 11:32 Fenway Park gives tours to thousands of people a year. IG: 11:36 How wonderful. BP: 11:37 And I am one of the tour guides there. IG: 11:42 That is wonderful. That is wonderful that you found it. BP: 11:45 And then to make some extra money, I drive Uber. IG: 11:48 Oh, good for you. BP: 11:50 So, I am enjoying retirement. IG: 11:52 Yeah. BP: 11:52 Not quite as much money as I was making when I finished teaching. IG: 11:56 Yeah, you have a beautiful home. You live in a lovely area. BP: 12:00 Well, I lucked out in many ways. When I married Randy, she had a first husband, and she was able to buy this home in the 1980s when it was affordable. IG: 12:11 Right. BP: 12:11 So. IG: 12:12 Where did you meet your wife? BP: 12:15 We were acquaintances for a number of years in a Jewish congregation of the persuasion, called Jewish renewal. It is kind of like an alternative. IG: 12:25 Where is it based? BP: 12:27 When we met, it was based in Watertown, but we meet in rented spaces. Currently, we are based in Waltham. IG: 12:35 I know. BP: 12:38 And we were acquaintances for quite a while. IG: 12:40 Yeah. BP: 12:40 And in 2004 Randy and another friend, Mary were going to New Hampshire to canvas for John Kerry- IG: 12:49 Yeah. BP: 12:50 -and they asked me to come along if I wanted to come along. And I did. And at one point, Mary took a walk, and Randy and I were left in a diner talking, and we hit it off and started dating. And- IG: 13:02 That is wonderful. So, it is a relatively recent marriage. BP: 13:07 That is right, we were married. Actually, we were together for eight years before we got married. Oh, so we were only got married a little over three years ago- IG: 13:17 Only three. BP: 13:18 -and it was my first marriage at the age of 67. IG: 13:21 It is what? BP: 13:21 My first marriage at the age of 67. IG: 13:26 Bless your heart. BP: 13:27 Thank you. IG: 13:27 It is wonderful. BP: 13:28 Thank you. I am very happy. IG: 13:32 Wonderful. That is, that is really it. It warms my heart. So let us return a little less backtrack and return to your college days. BP: 13:47 Yes. IG: 13:47 So, I mean, do you still keep in touch with your classmates from Binghamton? BP: 13:54 There is one small group of classmates that I have always kept in touch with. IG: 13:58 Right. BP: 14:02 We were in the same dorm. We were in Whitney together. IG: 14:06 Right. BP: 14:07 And there were like three or four couples that we keep in touch- IG: 14:20 Yeah. BP: 14:20 Since then, it is not a wide range of students- IG: 14:25 Not a wide range [crosstalk] BP: 14:26 But- IG: 14:26 Do you ever get together? BP: 14:28 Um, maybe on big reunions, like I get together with them on big reunions. I think I saw them on the 50th and the 40th reunion. The union now passed its 50th. IG: 14:41 Yeah, I remember you at the reunion. BP: 14:44 Yeah. IG: 14:45 On campus. BP: 14:46 Yeah. But they get, generally get together on New Year's Eve in Pennsylvania, at somebody's house. But I usually do not make that. But we said, you know, holiday- [crosstalk] IG: 15:00 -together with the Strauss's? BP: 15:01 Yes. IG: 15:02 We interview them. BP: 15:04 Yes-yes, wonderful people. IG: 15:06 Because I- they mentioned a New Year's tradition in Pennsylvania. BP: 15:12 Right. IG: 15:12 That is, that is why I thought, Okay, so tell me about the campus when you first arrived. What was it like? BP: 15:24 Well, I love say, I always tell people when I got there, it was Harpur College. IG: 15:31 Yeah. BP: 15:32 And it had 1600 students. When I left, it was State University of New York at Binghamton, and it had 6000 students. There was mud and construction everywhere all during those four years. Tt was really an explosion. IG: 15:49 So, it really went through not even an evolution, but a revolution- BP: 15:54 Yes. IG: 15:54 -for four years that you were there? BP: 15:56 Right. IG: 15:57 What did you study at Binghamton? BP: 16:00 I went in thinking I wanted to be a math major. IG: 16:03 Right. BP: 16:04 But I took calculus, AP calculus in high school, so I did not take- have to take math the first freshman year. And during the freshman and sophomore year, I kind of had an intellectual awakening, and I decided that people were the most interesting things to study. So, I majored in psychology. Now I expected to study Freud and abnormal psychology and things like that, but the program at Binghamton was primarily experimental psychology, so I studied rats. IG: 16:11 Right. But that really- BP: 16:39 It was okay. IG: 16:41 Awakened your interest in the in the dis, in the subject. BP: 16:45 That is right. IG: 16:46 Who were some of the- do you remember some of the names of the faculty- BP: 16:52 Oh, that [crosstalk] IG: 16:54 -awakened this interest in you? BP: 16:55 Yeah. Well, my friend- my first psychology teacher, was Andrew Strouthes. Um, but I had been awakened even before I started taking psychology. IG: 17:10 By whom? By what? BP: 17:12 Well, I know that during the summer before my sophomore year, I read William James' psychology. I would get a book on psychology, and this one was called Psychology, so I decided to read it. And I was reading some philosophy. I took philosophy in my sophomore year, and loved it, and I decided I wanted to be a therapist. So, this kind of psychology that I was studying as a sophomore was not really what I was expecting. IG: 17:46 Yeah. BP: 17:46 But I still liked it. Then at some point around my junior year, when I- during my-my sophomore year, things got difficult emotionally for me. I struggled with depression some, and I- at one point decided that I had too many of my own problems that I could not figure out to help somebody else with their problems. So, I went from wanting to be a therapist to wanting to do brain research [crosstalk] IG: 18:23 That is pretty self-aware, I would say, for a young person. BP: 18:32 Mm-Hmm. IG: 18:32 So, did you feel supported by the community at Binghamton during the harder times? Or did you have friends that you could reach out to? BP: 18:45 Um, I was not good at reaching out. IG: 18:48 No. BP: 18:49 I was not good at getting support. I think I pretty much carried things on my own. Yeah. IG: 18:59 So, do you see yourself during those years as a loner, or were you, you know, in a group of friends? And... BP: 19:11 I would say I had friends; I had a small group of friends. IG: 19:17 And- BP: 19:18 And I was- there was something that was not quite a fraternity. It was more like a social club. It was called STO. IG: 19:26 what was that? Tell us about that? BP: 19:32 I think there were fraternities, and this was like a fraternity light. IG: 19:37 Yeah. BP: 19:39 And it was a little easier to get into a little less prestigious, a little less, you know, rules, and I liked hanging out with those folks. IG: 19:52 So, what would you do? Would you just, you know, hang out. BP: 19:57 Wow. Uh, I do not really remember too much else about that. Just go meetings, yeah, just meetings and talk. IG: 20:08 You had meetings and talks. BP: 20:09 Right. With uh, my- this girl, close group of friends that I had- IG: 20:13 Yeah. BP: 20:15 I remember going out to Sharkies and having speedies. IG: 20:19 In town? BP: 20:20 In town. IG: 20:20 In town. And did you have a car? Did you- did somebody have a car? BP: 20:26 Somebody must have had a car. IG: 20:27 Somebody must have had a car. BP: 20:28 Yeah, I did not have a car in college. IG: 20:30 Yeah. BP: 20:30 So, somebody must have had a car. IG: 20:34 You know so-so what were what was recreational? What was recreation for you, outside of Sharkies and the fraternity, or were you studying all the time? BP: 20:48 I was studying a lot. IG: 20:49 You were studying a lot. BP: 20:54 One thing that comes to mind when you say what was recreation is the first time that I was introduced to smoking grass. [laughs] Now you have to know that Binghamton was kind of like a- IG: 21:09 Party school? No? BP: 21:11 No, it was a druggie school [crosstalk] as its reputation was as a druggie school. IG: 21:17 That is interesting. BP: 21:18 And a lot of us had our first exposure to grass and acid at Binghamton. IG: 21:25 Was that kind of inspired by Timothy Leary? BP: 21:30 Yes-yes. IG: 21:30 And that was connected to your interest in psychology, right? BP: 21:35 Probably, I mean, it was more of interest in just having- wanting more experiences, wanting different experiences. I did have- I was not an acid head. I had one trip that was pretty intense, and one time when I took like a half a dose that did not do very much. IG: 21:59 Excuse me. BP: 22:00 I took like, a half a dose of acid. IG: 22:02 Yeah. BP: 22:03 And it did not do very much. IG: 22:04 Yeah. BP: 22:05 So, I would say I had one experience. IG: 22:09 And what was the experience like, if you do not mind sharing. BP: 22:12 Not at all. It was pretty-pretty interesting. It was, it was, it was good. At one point, I just felt like, this is great. I just felt so good. And colors were very-very vibrant. And I remember- IG: 22:30 Were you sitting, standing, walking? Do- Where were you walking? BP: 22:32 Both I would, I would mostly walking. I remember- I remember going into a room. IG: 22:40 In resi- in their residence? BP: 22:41 In the dorm, right. With a rug kind of looking like this. IG: 22:45 Yeah. BP: 22:46 And the pattern of the rug looked like it would rai- it raised up and started swirling around. [laughs] It was a psychedelic experience. But some of my insecurities were exacerbated, also. I remember walking during the trip, walking with a friend, and saying to him, you know, I am afraid. I am really boring you. So that was [crosstalk] IG: 23:13 Yeah, that is interesting. I never heard that. So, in the aftermath, what do you think of this experience? I mean- BP: 23:25 I am glad I had- IG: 23:26 Yeah. BP: 23:27 I am glad I had it. I do not think it did any damage. IG: 23:29 No. BP: 23:29 I did not do it enough to really do any damage. And I smoked several times, listened to music, but I never really developed a desire to make it a lifestyle or do it a lot, and now, as an adult, the few times that I have smoked with friends over the years, I do not like the way it makes me feel at all, so I do not do it. I am trying to remember whether we used to go to basketball games. We might have gone to basketball games. IG: 24:02 So-so, you would get, you know, I mean, you would get together with your friends. Do you remember some of the conversations? Would you talk about politics, the war? You know, the war must have been present on everyone's mind. BP: 24:17 The war was a big thing. The war was a big thing. I remember either as a sophomore, as a junior, reading a book about the history of the War of Vietnam, and just deciding right then and there that it was unjust. It was a really terrible war. And I remember a group of us drove down to Washington, DC for one of the marches. And we were, we were very against the war, and there was a bond there. We-we... IG: 24:51 Do remember- what year the protest in Washington? Do you remember? BP: 24:55 I am guessing 1966. I am guessing. IG: 25:00 And you know, was it many students, or just your friends, or who went from Binghamton? Do you remember? BP: 25:09 Well, we were in a car, so [crosstalk] IG: 25:12 It must not [inaudible] so large. BP: 25:14 -very much, but there were other people that definitely went down. IG: 25:18 Right-right. BP: 25:19 I do not remember whether any busses of students went down, I am not sure. But I mean, I can feel the emotion of that and even now, how against the war we were and how much we wanted to fight it. IG: 25:34 How was it like being in Washington with this sea of young people, I imagine. BP: 25:39 Yeah, it was great. It was really energizing, and it felt like we had to express our opposition. But it was frustrating also, because we did not really know whether this was going to make have an impact, although, in retrospect, it certainly had an impact in Johnson not running for a second term. IG: 26:02 Right. BP: 26:03 So, we had sudden effect there. IG: 26:05 Do you feel that you were politicized during your undergraduate career? Do you think you are a political or was it just that one instance? BP: 26:22 That is a good question. I certainly am very interested in politics. I mean, I met- I got together with Randy going up to New Hampshire to Canvas for John Kerry. So, when it- when I am and I am very energized about the 2018- IG: 26:42 By the way, went to a fundraiser for John Kerry. BP: 26:45 Oh, right. IG: 26:48 Yeah. BP: 26:49 I am very energized about the 2018 midterms and the 2020 election. I want to do everything I can. But I would not say that most of my life, I have been that political, you know, I have had my views and I have contributed money at various times, but I cannot say that I have participated in a lot of organizing. IG: 27:13 So do you think that Binghamton was kind of a foundational experience for you, or it was just something that you went through to get a degree. BP: 27:25 I certainly think it had an influence. I mean it, it put me in the direction of brain research and experimental psychology, and got me headed off and in that in that direction for the first 10 years of my life. IG: 27:51 Even though it was not really the psychology, you know, direction that you- BP: 27:59 envision of beginning. IG: 28:00 Yea., BP: 28:00 That is right. IG: 28:03 So, you know, there were women at Binghamton. [laughter] You know, did you date anybody? BP: 28:19 Well, this is, yeah, this is, this is very important part of my history. IG: 28:27 Yeah. BP: 28:28 So, I remember walking along near Whitney in my freshman year, thinking, you know, I am really, really happy, as long as I do not think about girls like I must have had some fear, some insecurity, that-that was troubling me. But, I mean, I was basically a pretty happy person. There was something called "Winter Weekend." IG: 29:08 Yeah, what was that? BP: 29:09 It was something that I think the fraternities and the social clubs ran. It was the middle of the winter term, and it involved parties and stuff, and it was organized over- around the weekend, and people had dates for it. So, I decided I wanted to go to that. And I had been hanging around a few of people, and I asked one of the girls I was hanging out with to go. Her name was Mary Jean and so we went. had a pretty good time. I did not much, have much a dating life in high school, so I during that week. I made out for the first time. But at the end of the weekend, we were on the way back to the dorm, and I decided that was it. I did not really want to see her anymore. IG: 29:09 You did not what. BP: 29:12 Did not really want to see her anymore after that weekend. So, we get up to the door of the dorm, and before I say anything, she says, "Would like to have lunch tomorrow?" And I ended up saying, "Well, okay." And I ended up saying, "Well, okay," for the next six months-- always feeling like I did not really want to be in this relationship, but not knowing how to break it up. IG: 30:41 Right. BP: 30:43 And that lasted until, I guess it was trimester. So summer was in the end of June- was that that semester, that trimester, and then summer was July, August, September, October. So, I finally did say- she was from Buffalo, and I was from New York, so I finally did say at the end, "I do not think I want to see you when we get back." IG: 31:07 That what BP: 31:08 That when we get back, I do not think I want to continue dating, yeah, and she accepted it, but then over the summer, much to my surprise, to start to miss her, and when we got back, we sort of hung out for a little bit, and then we started going out again. But this time it was very different. I came, kind of became dependent on her. IG: 31:33 Yeah. BP: 31:34 And it did not really work well. And during this time, I find myself getting depressed. And so, this whole-- I think when I look back on it, one of the reasons I became depressed is that during that time, when I was with her, in the first semester, I was not really being myself, I was not being true to myself, and I kind of got out of sorts that way. IG: 31:59 How? I mean, how did you it is a hard question, but I mean, how did you being yourself, meaning-meaning that you were not telling her what you felt BP: 32:11 Right and sort of like being who I thought you wanted me to be. IG: 32:16 Yeah. BP: 32:16 Instead of being who I was, IG: 32:17 I see, I see. BP: 32:19 And I did not really date anybody else that seriously for the rest of the college. IG: 32:24 Did you part as friends? Or did you never speak to her again, or when you finally parted company? BP: 32:32 You mean in the sophomore year? It was somewhat acrimonious. I think, you know, I, I think we were civil to each other after that, but never close. And as far as you know, I dated here and there the rest of the time, but never really- IG: 32:35 Yeah. Yeah. BP: 32:59 -hooked up with anyone. IG: 33:01 Do you think that she was very career oriented, or was she, your former- that first girlfriend? Was she looking for a husband? BP: 33:13 [inaudible] yeah. I think she was looking for a husband. IG: 33:19 Do you think that these were the expectations of young women at the time, even those who had gotten into Harpur College, or were they looking toward- well, I mean, you cannot say, you cannot generalize- BP: 33:36 Yeah, I cannot generalize exactly. IG: 33:39 But she was looking- BP: 33:39 I think she was looking for a husband. IG: 33:41 Yeah. BP: 33:42 And I think that it was a time when expectations were changing for women. IG: 33:46 Were changing. BP: 33:47 You know- IG: 33:49 Well, you mentioned that, you know, there was an expectation from your parents. That you would go on- BP: 33:54 Right. IG: 33:54 -with your studies, but your sisters could do anything that they liked. BP: 33:54 Right. IG: 33:54 So that -that-that is my answer, really. BP: 33:54 Right. That is right. IG: 33:56 At Harpur College, which is, which, I mean, had an excellent reputation, or, I mean, it had a reputation of being a very rigorous school. I do not want to put words into your mouth. [laughs] BP: 34:18 No, it was yes, it was. IG: 34:21 It was. BP: 34:21 I mean, once my- one sister did not go to college. IG: 34:25 Right. BP: 34:26 And one sister went to college for one year and then met someone and got married. IG: 34:31 Right. BP: 34:32 But, you know, the women that were at Harpur College already- IG: 34:36 Right. BP: 34:37 I think we are a little more career origin. IG: 34:39 A little more career origin, but not much. BP: 34:42 Yeah, I think not. That is right, they still were kind of transitioning from looking for a husband to thinking, "Oh, maybe I can have my own career." IG: 34:56 So how do you think- how did the transition manifest for women that you noticed during that time? Were they becoming- what more career oriented? Were they more, you know, did they, I mean, did kids have sexual relations at the time? BP: 35:23 I would not know. [laughs] IG: 35:24 You would not know. You would not know. You would not know. So, your-your-your buddies and you were not talking about that? BP: 35:30 Oh well, yeah, I had one-one friend of mine definitely talked about his kind of conquests. And I think I had a roommate who had a girlfriend, and they were sleeping together. Oh, you know, it reminds me of the Rule of, you know, a book in the door-door had to be open the width of a book, yes, and one foot on the floor. IG: 36:03 Yes-yes-yes. I have heard. BP: 36:06 And- IG: 36:06 So, did you witness that at all? BP: 36:10 Well, we talked about those- Yeah. -those rules. But I-I mean, I never attempted to sleep with someone while I was in college. I see so I would not know. I never tried to bend those rules, but I do, I am sure that there were other my friends that did. IG: 36:31 I see. So-so how did your girlfriend from that time, and does she have a name? BP: 36:40 Mary Jean. IG: 36:41 Mary Jean. How did your girlfriend and you spend time together? BP: 36:48 Well, we would have almost every meal together. IG: 36:50 Yeah. BP: 36:52 And we would study together. IG: 36:53 Right. BP: 36:54 And, you know, we would make out. IG: 36:57 Yeah. BP: 36:58 Uh, and maybe occasionally see a movie if somebody had a car, or maybe if there was a movie shown on campus. IG: 37:12 Did you mention Mary Jean to your parents? I mean, did you- BP: 37:16 Oh yes. IG: 37:17 Yes. BP: 37:19 Mary Jane was not Jewish, and I did mention that I was going out with her, and again, my father was not happy. IG: 37:36 Yeah. BP: 37:36 Yeah, that was uh- IG: 37:39 That might have had an influence. BP: 37:42 Could have had an influence, yeah. IG: 37:44 When you went home to- for the summers, what did you do? How would you spend your time? BP: 37:48 I would get a job. IG: 37:50 Yeah. Where would you work? BP: 37:51 I mean, it was an advantage that it was a trimester with July, August, September and October, because I- you generally lied and said I was permanent. So let us see. In (19)64 I got a job at the New York World's Fair. IG: 38:10 Oh, I remember that. BP: 38:11 Yeah, and I had the most boring job in the world. IG: 38:15 What did you do? BP: 38:16 I was a Pinkerton Guard, and I was stationed between two escalators, and my job was to push a button if anything happened in emergency. So, the most interesting part of my day was when every once in a while, somebody asked me directions to go somewhere, but it was very pretty boring job. IG: 38:37 What other, what other jobs did you have? BP: 38:40 The next year, I worked in a purse factory. I was like stock boy, and I worked there for several months, and then when I told my boss that I was leaving, he said, "Oh, I am really sorry. I was about to promote you." So, they wanted me to stay, but they did not realize that I was a college boy. IG: 39:04 I did not ask you an important question, why did you choose Binghamton to study? BP: 39:12 Basically, it was my third choice. It was my [crosstalk] IG: 39:15 What were your first two choices? BP: 39:16 Cornell and University of Rochester. So, Cornell, I did not get into and Rochester, I was on the waiting list. IG: 39:23 So, were these known as math schools? BP: 39:28 No- IG: 39:29 [crosstalk] programs? BP: 39:29 They just were- IG: 39:31 Well, I mean, Cornell is for everything. BP: 39:33 Right-right, and, but I did know in my senior year in high school that I wanted to leave New York. I did not want to go to Brooklyn College. I did not want to stay at home, and so I figured out a way to pay for everything myself. So, I walked into the kitchen in my home to my parents and said, "These are the three schools I am applying to, Binghamton, Rochester, Cornell." I did not give them a choice of Brooklyn College. IG: 39:50 That is fantastic. BP: 40:00 I just knew I could pay for it. I got a regent scholarship that paid for tuition totally, which was all of $400 a trimester. IG: 40:00 Yeah, times were different. BP: 40:01 Right. Right. I got a federal loan that basically paid for my room and board at school, and I did summer work to pick up, make my expenses, so I really was not dependent on [crosstalk] IG: 40:25 That is very enterprise. But what did they say anyway? I mean, What-what? I mean, you kind of put your foot down, and this is my- BP: 40:36 They did not have much of a choice. They-they said, "Are you sure?" IG: 40:42 What can they say? BP: 40:48 But I was very glad I went to Binghamton. IG: 40:53 So-so had you had your parents heard of Binghamton before you announced that you were, you know, this was your third choice. BP: 41:07 I do not think they knew much about Binghamton Harpur College at the time. IG: 41:13 Yeah, Harpur College. BP: 41:14 Right. I do not think they knew much about it. But by the way, you know what? I tell people that I went to Harpur College- They would say, "Harvard?" IG: 41:22 Yeah. Yeah. BP: 41:22 I would say, "No-no, Harpur College, it is in Binghamton." And they would say, "Way down in Alabama?" IG: 41:35 Yeah, I know I when I told my daughter I was accepting a job at Binghamton. She thought, "Birmingham?" BP: 41:43 Yeah, yeah. IG: 41:45 But Harpur College had a reputation, and before I mean, do you know that it was you know, what were its strengths? What-what-what did you know about it before you- why did you apply to Harpur College rather than to SUNY Buffalo, for example? BP: 42:06 I think it had the reputation of being the best state school. I think that was the reputation, and I did well in high school. IG: 42:15 Yeah. BP: 42:16 And I was fairly sure I could get in, but I thought that I was worth the best state school. IG: 42:25 Yeah. BP: 42:26 You know. IG: 42:28 Did you visit before- did you visit Harpur College before your acceptance or, I mean, did you first arrive to campus on the first day of school? BP: 42:41 I do not remember visiting. IG: 42:42 You do not remember visiting. BP: 42:43 I think, I think I just [crosstalk] IG: 42:44 You just went into it cold. BP: 42:46 Yeah, I think I did. IG: 42:48 And how did it strike you? I mean, you were a city boy. How did the country strike you? What did it look like? BP: 42:58 Well, my, one of my memories of the first day of being there, my parents brought me up there, and I remember my parents leaving the dormitory, and I think I looked out the window and saw them, and they saw me as they were leaving. My father went. So, you know, they were, it was hard for them to-to- IG: 43:34 Because you were a tight knit family? BP: 43:36 Yeah. IG: 43:37 Yeah. BP: 43:39 And uh, but I think I adjusted pretty fast. And uh, hmm- IG: 43:51 I mean, what? I mean, it is a country, it is fresh air, it is, I mean, it is- BP: 43:57 Well. IG: 43:58 -pretty, it was pretty rural at the time. BP: 44:01 Yes, it was. It was not until I was at Binghamton before I had any understanding of why people took hikes- IG: 44:09 Yeah. BP: 44:09 -you know. But until then, I really just did not understand. Did not get it. But the friends that I made were from Buffalo. IG: 44:18 Yeah. BP: 44:19 And they had more of a non-city, um, feel a non-city. They understood what it was like to not be in a city, and so they kind of introduced me to walks in the country, but it was I had to get used to it, but I understood that I was in college and I was not in the city anymore. I was there to learn, and I think I adjusted pretty fast. IG: 44:52 You adapted very quickly. BP: 44:54 Yeah, and I liked my roommate, that was very important too. Sort of bond with my roommate. IG: 45:02 Did you stay with the same roommate for four years? BP: 45:05 No, I was with him for at least the first year, and possibly two years. Yeah, possibly two years that I was in a suite with several people. IG: 45:21 With how many people? BP: 45:23 I think probably four or five. IG: 45:25 Yeah. BP: 45:26 Yeah. IG: 45:27 So, did you have your own kitchen? And- BP: 45:30 Yes, I think so. IG: 45:31 You think so. So, did that mean that somebody with a car went to town to buy groceries? BP: 45:40 I am not going to be much help here. IG: 45:41 Okay, you do not remember. Do you remember- but you-you would go to the cafeteria? BP: 45:46 Yes, definitely. IG: 45:47 So maybe there was not a kitchen? BP: 45:49 Right. Could be. And I do remember liking hanging out in the student center. IG: 45:55 At the Student Center? BP: 45:56 Right. IG: 45:57 And what- where was that, and what was that like? BP: 46:02 That was by what we call the esplanade. Is it still the student center now? The student union. That is called the student union, right. IG: 46:14 I see. BP: 46:14 But we called it the student center. We would go down and get a snack. IG: 46:19 Yeah. BP: 46:20 Get a burger or something. And uh- IG: 46:24 Did people, you know, I am just getting, you know- did you know- the outside time, the you know, the political climate, the issues of the day- BP: 46:41 Yeah. IG: 46:41 -did you discuss them? BP: 46:44 Yes-yes. IG: 46:44 So, what-what were some of the things that you were discussing- BP: 46:47 Well, mainly the war. IG: 46:48 The mainly the war. BP: 46:49 Yeah. Now I remember being in the student center when the Six Day War in Israel broke out, but I know the timing is right, because I think that was in June (19)67 and I graduated in (19)67 and I must have graduated in- I do not know why I would have been there in June (19)67 but I remember- IG: 47:27 Maybe for the graduation ceremony? BP: 47:29 Could be, could be, but I remember feeling like I want to go over to Israel and fight. You know, I remember SDS. IG: 47:35 Yeah. Right. BP: 47:41 And- IG: 47:42 But you were not part of it. BP: 47:42 I was not part of that, and I was not as radical as that. IG: 47:45 Yeah. Are any of your friends part of SDS? BP: 47:50 Not I remember. No, I do not think so. Um- IG: 48:00 Was there an anxiety about being drafted among your friends? BP: 48:04 Yes, definitely. IG: 48:07 Right. So, were a lot of your friends thinking of going on to graduate schools? BP: 48:15 Uh huh? Definitely. IG: 48:17 Yeah. BP: 48:18 Definitely. IG: 48:20 So, you know what- I am just wondering also the student composition were- you said you mentioned that, you know, there were students from Buffalo, but would you think that the majority were from New York City, Long Island? BP: 48:37 And yes, I think the majority were from New York City, Long Island, definitely. IG: 48:45 But you- did you gravitate to the New York City and Long Island kids, or to the Buffalo kids? BP: 48:52 Well, my friends turned out to be from Buffalo. IG: 48:56 Oh, that is just happened to be. BP: 48:58 Yeah. I am not sure why. IG: 49:00 Yeah. BP: 49:01 They were in my dorm. IG: 49:02 Yeah. Did you ever visit their family's house? BP: 49:07 No. IG: 49:09 Did anybody visit your family? Do you think? BP: 49:13 No, I do not think so. IG: 49:14 No. Well, do you remember any of the- how are we doing for time we still have it is, it is only 4:20. BP: 49:28 Yeah, we are fine. IG: 49:29 Rather, 4:20. BP: 49:30 Yeah, we are fine. IG: 49:31 Um, did your parents have any expectations of you going on to get a job after college or... BP: 49:42 No, they wanted me to get a graduate degree. IG: 49:45 A graduate degree. BP: 49:46 Yeah. IG: 49:49 So, did you get any direction from your advice- did you have a faculty advisor? Did you have a mentor who advised you about where to apply or you know, what was your interaction like with, sort of the academic community, I mean, with the faculty? BP: 50:10 Oh, another faculty member that I remember- IG: 50:13 Yeah. BP: 50:14 -was Peter Donovick. IG: 50:15 Yeah. BP: 50:17 And I think he encouraged me to go to graduate school in physiological psychology. Now there was another faculty member, Dan Fallon, but I do not remember whether I came- I became, I became close with him, but I do not remember whether it was as an undergraduate or after I had come back and was a graduate- I was a laboratory assistant. IG: 50:42 Yeah. BP: 50:43 I am not sure which period. IG: 50:45 But these three-faculty member, these three professors, had an impact. BP: 50:50 Yes. IG: 50:51 Did you ever stay in touch with them after graduating? BP: 50:54 No. IG: 50:55 No. BP: 50:58 Jim- trying to remember whether- IG: 51:04 What-what do you think you know? Why did they advise the schools that they did? I mean, what you said this, that one of the professors advised you to- BP: 51:16 [crosstalk] to go on, to pursue- IG: 51:17 To go on. Yeah. I mean, what do they think of your work? BP: 51:22 I think they thought it was that I was had a lot of potential. IG: 51:25 You had a lot of in-in research? BP: 51:29 Right in research. IG: 51:30 In psychological. BP: 51:30 Right. Because that is what the track that I was on. IG: 51:32 Yeah, I understand. And so, were there any small victories that you remember of as you know, a research assistant during those days. Where would you conduct the research? BP: 51:49 Well, I did a senior project. IG: 51:51 I see. BP: 51:52 And that was, that was really uh- IG: 51:55 What was a senior project? BP: 51:57 I studied the circadian, circadian rhythms of rats. And it was an ambitious project. IG: 52:06 Yeah. BP: 52:08 What I did was I had rats in an activity wheel. IG: 52:14 Right. BP: 52:15 So, they could, they could step out from their cage and run in an activity wheel whenever they wanted. IG: 52:20 Right. BP: 52:20 And if you tracked the activity, you noticed- IG: 52:25 Right. BP: 52:25 -that they had more activity, I think during the-[inaudible] nocturnal or not. IG: 52:33 Right. BP: 52:34 But they might have been more active at night. IG: 52:38 Right. BP: 52:38 And less active during the day- IG: 52:40 Yes. BP: 52:42 -or and then I tried to manipulate the lighting. IG: 52:44 Right. BP: 52:45 So, I put the lights on when they were most active. IG: 52:48 Right. BP: 52:49 Took them off when they were least active. IG: 52:51 Right. BP: 52:51 And they gradually switched. IG: 52:53 Yeah. BP: 52:54 And I did that for quite a while. IG: 52:55 Yeah. BP: 52:56 And then I-I put the light on all the time- IG: 53:01 Yeah. BP: 53:02 -and I saw, I tried to see whether the activity would revert back to the original cycle. IG: 53:07 Yeah. BP: 53:08 And I think it did. And I wrote about that, and I defended the thesis- IG: 53:09 It did. BP: 53:13 -stuff like that. IG: 53:13 Right. BP: 53:13 Yeah, it was, it was. IG: 53:13 Right. BP: 53:14 It was very good research experience. IG: 53:16 It was well received. Do you remember any of the accolades that you got from your faculty? BP: 53:29 No. IG: 53:30 You do not remember. So, when you went to the University of Rochester for your graduate degree, did you feel that Binghamton prepared you well? BP: 53:41 I think it did, and I must have done well, because Rochester is an excellent program. IG: 53:46 Yeah. BP: 53:47 It is a complete Center for Brain research. IG: 53:50 Right. BP: 53:50 And if I had gotten a PhD, I would have taken neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, neurophysiology, neuropsychology and neurochemistry. IG: 54:00 Right. BP: 54:01 Which, I think I did take all those courses. IG: 54:03 Right. BP: 54:04 And I was- I felt like I was being held back emotionally for my tendency to be depressed from- IG: 54:14 excuse me [inaudible] BP: 54:16 A tendency to be depressed- IG: 54:18 Yes. BP: 54:18 -held me back emotionally from really doing my best intellectual work. IG: 54:23 Right. BP: 54:24 But that if that had not been there, Rochester would have been an excellent program for me to get a PhD. IG: 54:32 Right. BP: 54:33 And I had a friend who got there who got a PhD and then worked at the UCLA brain research and had a very successful career. IG: 54:49 I am kind of taking it all in and uh- BP: 54:54 But Binghamton definitely prepared me for it. IG: 54:56 Yeah. Do you feel um, a greater affiliation for Binghamton or for Rochester? BP: 55:06 Binghamton. IG: 55:07 Binghamton. Why is that? BP: 55:08 I spent more time there. IG: 55:10 yeah. BP: 55:11 It has been four years there. IG: 55:12 Yeah. BP: 55:13 I have, no I- there is, there is one friend from Rochester that I have kind of kept in touch with, but I have many more relationships from with Binghamton students. And there is just something about your undergraduate experience. There is more spirit there and more identification. IG: 55:38 I absolutely agree. Yeah. Were there any, I mean, you had a very tight knit circle of friends, and at Binghamton, do you remember- and they were all- what, you know, white middle class- BP: 55:57 Oh, yeah. IG: 55:58 Were there any, you know, students of color? Were there any international students going to Binghamton to Harpur College at the time? Do you remember that? BP: 56:10 I do not remember them. IG: 56:12 So, it was pretty- BP: 56:15 Pretty vanilla. IG: 56:16 Pretty homogeneous. BP: 56:17 Yeah. IG: 56:18 Pretty vanilla. BP: 56:19 Yeah. IG: 56:24 You know, did you care about, did you read about- what did you think about, you know, civil rights movement that was kind of really sweeping through [crosstalk] BP: 56:35 That is true. (19)64 is civil rights legislation. IG: 56:38 Yeah. So, did you know about that? Did you kind of- were you aware of that or not really? BP: 56:47 You know, I must have been, but I do not remember. IG: 56:49 You do not remember. BP: 56:50 I do not remember being aware of it, like I was aware of the war crosstalk] IG: 56:53 Of the war because it affected you directly. BP: 56:56 [crosstalk] yeah. IG: 56:56 You know the war. BP: 56:57 Yeah. IG: 56:58 So how did you follow the events of the ward. Were you watching television? Where was the television at the Student Center? BP: 57:08 I think there was a television in the lounge of the dorm. IG: 57:12 Oh, I see, I see. BP: 57:14 Because I remember watching Kennedy's funeral on that television. IG: 57:17 That must have been a shocker. BP: 57:18 Oh my gosh. It is one of those things where you never forget where you were. IG: 57:23 Did you think that, you know what we were under threat, or, you know what did you think? BP: 57:29 Oh, no, I thought it was just so very, very sad. IG: 57:33 Yeah. BP: 57:33 We loved Kennedy. IG: 57:34 Yeah. BP: 57:35 We just loved him. IG: 57:36 Right. BP: 57:37 And to have that taken out from under us was very sad, and his funeral was on my birthday. IG: 57:44 Oh. BP: 57:47 That was the worst birthday I have ever had. IG: 57:49 Yeah. BP: 57:52 So, I remember that very well. I remember Kennedy's assassination, and following- IG: 57:58 Why did you love Kennedy? BP: 58:00 He was- he had such a great sense of life, you know, and sense of humor. We loved his wit. We loved his press conferences, and we thought that he would- he had his heart was in the right place. IG: 58:30 How do you mean? BP: 58:36 I-I think he uh- I think I remember him doing things that made me feel like he would care about minorities. I do not remember exactly what he did, but I mean, probably Johnson did more for the civil rights movement, even Kennedy might have had power to do because Johnson was so good with Congress. IG: 59:07 Right. BP: 59:09 And one question that we always debated afterwards, after he was killed, and then later on- IG: 59:16 With your fellow students? BP: 59:17 Yeah. IG: 59:18 Fellow, I mean, with your friends. BP: 59:19 Right. Was- would Kennedy have dragged us into the war like Johnson did? And you know, our sense was that probably he would not have. IG: 59:32 Yeah. BP: 59:33 But who knows? We just do not know. IG: 59:36 Right. BP: 59:38 But the war is definitely what dominated our thinking [crosstalk] my thinking. I do not remember. I think I must have followed the civil rights march in (19)65 and Martin Luther King's famous speech, but I do not have as much of a recollection of that as I am the war. IG: 1:00:01 Did you talk about politics at home at all? Was that something that was talked to the dinner table? What-what were your parents? Republican demo? BP: 1:00:12 They were Democrat. IG: 1:00:14 Definitely Democrat. BP: 1:00:15 Yeah. IG: 1:00:17 Yeah. So- BP: 1:00:18 I do not think we talked too much about it, but they were definitely Democrats. IG: 1:00:26 Well, you know, do you have any recollections more that you want to share with us about Harpur College and your experience and the impact that you had that it had on you rather. BP: 1:00:44 Uh-huh, yeah. IG: 1:00:52 What-what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? Maybe, as you put it. BP: 1:01:09 I think somehow the whole intellectual atmosphere of college gave me a real conviction that it was important to be intellectually honest, to really study something and be able to and just learn enough about it to really have an informed opinion. IG: 1:01:37 Just beautiful. Yeah. BP: 1:01:41 Yeah. I mean- IG: 1:01:42 And this was a principle that guided you through your life. BP: 1:01:51 Right. IG: 1:01:53 Did you impart this to your students when you were teaching? BP: 1:01:57 I tried to. IG: 1:01:59 What did you tell them? How did you translate that into terms that they could understand? BP: 1:02:06 Well, I was a math teacher. IG: 1:02:08 Yeah. BP: 1:02:09 And I would make- I would tell them, you know, do not take what I am saying just because I am saying it. Really try to understand where this rule or this law comes from. Make it your own. You know, nothing is true just because I am saying it. It all comes from logic and reasoning. And try to reason it out for yourself so that you understand it like I understand it. IG: 1:02:43 So are there any you know and you think that that you know Binghamton- BP: 1:02:54 Oh, yeah. IG: 1:02:56 -formed you in that way to be intellectually honest, BP: 1:03:02 Right. And I mean, I felt like my opinion about the Vietnam War was the most reasoned and intellectually honest opinion I have had almost about almost anything, because I read a whole book on it. I really learned about it, but where-where it started, and who was involved, and when I decided that I was against the war, I just felt like I had really-really good intellectual reasons for-for being against the war. IG: 1:03:37 I really like that. Are there any concluding remarks, as you have? BP: 1:03:53 I think Binghamton has a great reputation, and so I am very proud to be a graduate. Um- IG: 1:04:06 What would you say to future students who are listening or to this recording 10-20, years down the line? What would you say to them? BP: 1:04:18 I would say that going to Binghamton gives you an opportunity to dive into a great intellectual atmosphere and really exercise your mind and learn all kinds of things and make the most of the opportunity. IG: 1:04:37 I think that is wonderful. Thank you so much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Barry Polsky Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Polsky, Barry ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Barry graduated with a degree in Psychology from Harpur. His career spanned different professions. He worked as researcher for a pharmaceutical firm; as a software engineer after earning a graduate degree in computer science. He drove a cab and before retirement worked as a high school math teacher. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Barry Polsky.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-01-03 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 64:47 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/76252f56ad490efa814725f7b1c4f049.mp3 160abfba508ff039465b4a63d9c85147 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4b8924b08448b36c019a891ce6cd457f.jpg 559e1873e4ea0767790c3f3a02bfcb16 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-01-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David and Janet Muir Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text David is a retired philosophy professor who taught philosophy at Onondaga Community College. He owes a debt to Harpur College, which spurred his lifelong interest in philosophy. He met his wife, Janet, there. He earned his degree in philosophy from Syracuse University. Janet met her spouse, David Muir, at Harpur; she did not finish her degree at Harpur College since she supported her husband through his PhD program at Syracuse University. She earned her degree at Syracuse subsequently and worked as an adjunct instructor in English at Onondaga Community. Looking back, Janet says they've led a "charmed life." Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Vietnam War; Harpur College – Alumni living in Marcellus, New York; Harpur College – Alumni in Higher Education - Spouses of Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Former Harpur students in higher education; Harpur College – Former Harpur students living in Marcellus, NY Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: David and Janet Muir Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 12 January 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay, so David, please tell me your name, your full name, your birth date, our relationship and where we are. DM: 00:13 My name is David Muir. I was born in 1945 April-April 13--the day after Roosevelt died. IG: 00:29 The day? Excuse me. DM: 00:30 Day after FDR died. IG: 00:32 Yes-yes. DM: 00:33 Died April 12. So I know, I know exactly what the headlines were in every paper in the country on the day of my birth. [laughs] And we are in my home, which is in Marcellus, New York, Dunbar Woods Road. IG: 00:52 Okay, very good. Do you mind speaking up just a little bit? Okay, all right, so tell me a little bit about your family background. What did your parents do? Where did you live? DM: 01:13 I grew up in Western New York. My father was all his life unskilled labor. Worked in various jobs throughout his life. My mother was a homemaker when I was first born. She went back to school to Buffalo State Teachers College, got a teaching degree and taught second grade after that. And so I was not the first one to go to college, but my middle brother, I am one of three boys. My middle brother, Richard, also went to college. He went to Buffalo State and got a degree in Art Education. My youngest brother Tim, decided not to attend college after thinking he was going to go to Harpur College as well, but he- IG: 02:20 Thinking what? DM: 02:21 He was going to go to Harpur College. IG: 02:23 I see. DM: 02:23 But did not. IG: 02:24 But you-you did. DM: 02:25 I-I did, and so-so uh, and I went in, you know, graduated high school in (19)63 and entered Harpur College in that fall on the trimester. IG: 02:39 What were the expectations of you and your family in terms of education? Did they encourage you to go to college? Speaker 1 02:52 Yeah, it was understood my brother, my youngest brother, not going to college was the exception. It was understood all the way through that, that we were going to college. My- I went to high school and that had homogeneous grouping they had actually pioneered at Kenmore. Kenmore system had pioneered homogeneous grouping so that we had blue circle groups, which were the students who were thought to be most advanced, were given more advanced instruction, and I was part of blue circle group from the time I was in junior high right up through senior high. So my expedition so I was surrounded by students, all of whom had the expectation that we were all going to college. And it varied, you know, what their backgrounds were, whether their parents had gone to school. But I did grow up in, you know, in Kenmore, in the school system I was in, and in the particular classes I had, that was everybody's expectation as we were going to college. IG: 04:15 And so why did you decide on Harpur College? Was this your first choice? Or how many other colleges did you apply to? Speaker 1 04:25 I ended up only applying to Harpur. Dean Porter came to Kenmore at Ken-Kenmore West, it was and they had divided into two different high schools. So he came to Kenmore West, where I was going to school, and it was a college night, and I talked to him, and he was tremendously enthusiastic about Harpur College. He was a tremendous sales salesperson for the, for this school. And I had some-some literature about it, and checked on it, and I just decided from that time on, that would have been November of (19)62 November of my senior year, that that is where I was going to go. And uh- IG: 05:17 What-what do you remember? What reputation did Harpur College have at the time? Speaker 1 05:25 It was, I think, just building a reputation. But what-what it did have was a very low student faculty ratio. It had a very high percentage of PhDs on the faculty already, and number of those PhDs were very young. So it- if you read about it, it was impressive. But the joke when we were there is, you know, you would say, "Where do you go to school?" "Harpur," "Harvard?" "No-no. Harpur," but the joke was, yeah, but in 20 years, somebody's going to say, "Where do you go to school?" "Harvard." "Harpur?" "No-no, Harvard." [laughs] IG: 06:03 So what reputation did Harpur College have at the time? DM: 06:08 Just building? I think it had a good reputation. It was the first liberal arts college in-in the state of New York, and I think because there was lots of money going into this. And the Rockefeller years, as I say it-it did not have a reputation that outside of probably New York State, many people would have recognized it, but-but as I say it was, it was building a reputation. IG: 06:40 It was building a reputation. And what did you, did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to study? DM: 06:49 Well, yes and no, I-I was sure that I was going to study philosophy, but I did not have a really clear idea what that meant, but that is what I ended up doing. I majored in philosophy and then went on from there to dig it, came up here to Syracuse, and got a master's and PhD in philosophy. So. IG: 07:13 From Syracuse in philosophy. DM: 07:15 Yeah, so-so what I had thought I was going to do turned out to be what I did do. So I guess, guess in a sense, and guess in a sense, I had, I had a clear idea of what I thought I wanted to do, and then I had to sort of discover that it really was what I wanted to do. IG: 07:33 And so when you first arrived on campus, I mean, what- how did it strike you? Was it-it-it [crosstalk] a huge difference from the environment that you were used to? DM: 07:49 Well, the major difference was coming from upstate New York, the percentage of downstairs who were there. That was a huge difference. First time I visited, it was a sea of mud, and you walked on planks because they were just finishing the dorm, set of dorms that we saw. So it-it was not extremely impressive in that way, when I got to campus and-and the- those dormitories had been completed, it was, I guess it was an atmosphere somewhat similar to what I was used to in high school, because, because of the homogeneous grouping, I was used to being surrounded by other students who were highly motivated. And there was a whole college of them. Our incoming graduating average of the class I came in with was somewhere around 63 or excuse me, 93 in (19)63 but it was somewhere around 90-93 was the incoming average. You had a number of people, the people who did not like being at college were people who were very bright. Wanted to go to Ivy League schools. Some of them had gotten in but could not afford them because they did not get financial aid, and they were unhappy because they thought that if they were there, their lives would be perfect. And then there were a whole lot of us who were perfectly happy. IG: 09:24 Did you find any differences between yourself and the students from downstate? Did you think that there were any cultural differences or...? DM: 09:38 Not-not. No, yeah. IG: 09:41 I mean downstream, New York City, and Long Island. DM: 09:43 Well, one of the, one of the things was that a number of them were from the, cannot remember, what is PS program, something which meant they graduated age 16. So there were a number of-of not-not the ones from Long Island, but a number of the people from the city were young, but these were people who became friends right away, as far as--well, still, we were just together at New Year's time with friends from Harpur who have been friends ever since. Of those friends, let us see two from Long Island and the rest from the city. Well, no and one from upstate, one other actually from Syracuse, but met him in Binghamton. IG: 10:46 So how so you have this tight knit circle of friends that you have kept throughout- DM: 10:51 Oh yeah-yeah. IG: 10:52 -your life actually. DM: 10:54 Oh yeah, yes, from, yeah, there-there-there were only, let us see eight of us got together this time because one person who comes regularly had knee surgery, lives down in New Jersey. His wife is not a Harpur grad, and Janet is not a Harpur grad, but, but, but we met. She was, she was a freshman, the same time I was so we entered together. [Janet speaks in the background] IG: 11:27 What was that meeting like? Speaker 1 11:30 Well, I think we met first because we met her roommate, who was at the- IG: 11:37 Reception, yeah. DM: 11:38 The reception, Bev Gross, but Bev Gross came bursting back into their-their dorm room and said, I met somebody else from Buffalo, as if, is it that was the rarest thing in the world? Not only was there one person, but she had met two others [laughter] at the cafeteria. Uh, but we met, I think the-the first thing was Patty's Wake, which was the introductory party that started off the-the semester back then. IG: 12:17 Oh, tell me about that. Because this is a rich this-this is, you know, something that I really do not know. Speaker 2 12:24 Oh, Patty's Wake we got, we got on busses, busses and went in. Oh, I am trying to remember the name of the bar. It was- JM: 12:31 Sharkies. DM: 12:32 No-no. Was not Sharkies. No. Sharkies was a, was a good place. This was a, this was a dive, but it was on the bus route, and so he and so all the freshmen would go Pat- the-the story of Paddy was that Patty died because he studied too hard and-and never had any fun, and finally he just wore away. So this was so in celebration of Patty's Wake. This was the back then the annual first, first thing that freshmen went off campus to do was go off and-and drink. What was it? 25 cent drafts or something like that? IG: 13:10 And did it? Did it happen around St Patrick's Day or...? DM: 13:15 No-no, this was, this was in the first this was in the first week of being here. IG: 13:15 Oh semester, I see. DM: 13:17 Very beginning of the semester, probably orientation week. I do not know it was, it was, yeah, this was the first thing and all, yeah. So freshmen went off [inaudible] so we met there. And-and then we have, we have been together for ever since. JM: 13:37 We actually met in Whitney dorm. DM: 13:38 Okay, did we meet? JM: 13:39 [inaudible] came in and said- DM: 13:40 Oh my god, did she, did she introduce- JM: 13:42 the dining hall [inaudible] DM: 13:44 Okay she introduced, yeah, because I had thought we had, because-because that was the first and Patty's Wake was very first week. Yeah. So anyway, that was so you drank a lot of cheap beer. And everybody you know, all the freshmen over drank, and the 16-year-old managed to get in somehow, and even though they were illegal. But it was 18. Was the drinking age back then, JM: 14:07 it was a dry campus. DM: 14:09 Yeah-yeah. It was. It was a dry campus because the student government kept being told that it was a state rule that you could not have a pub on campus. You could not have alcohol on campus, and then, oh, somewhere second or third year that I was there, some young, some of the-the student government leaders, went to Albany and found out there was not any such rule, and that began the process of bringing the pub onto campus. We mean, there is no rule we cannot do this. IG: 14:49 Janet is on the conversation, which is a wonderful thing. Janet, would you mind introducing yourself so we would- please tell us. your name, your birth date, and you know what your affiliation with Binghamton is, well with Harpur College. JM: 15:09 [inaudible] Janet, actually James Muir. James is my maiden name. I was born March 30, 1946, I went to Harpur, not as my first choice, again for financial reasons, I was not admitted in the fall semester, I- but I was put on a waiting list, and I could go in the summer ahead, if I wanted to, but I did not have, you know, the highest average from high school. I went to a very small school, smaller graduating class than David did. So I was a bit overwhelmed, I would say, by, you know, the whole size and atmosphere at Harpur. But what was fun was we were in the Co-Ed dorm, and at that time, they had the curfews, and so, you know, it was unusual to be able to meet, you know, David and the others, and we had friends in the dorm that would do things as a group, and that was really fun. That was really a nice thing to do, but at that time, they were switching to the trimester, and the course load was very heavy, so I found it overwhelming, which is why I did not stay past the first year. IG: 16:44 Past the first year. JM: 16:44 Yeah-yeah. IG: 16:45 Okay. And where are you from? JM: 16:49 We are from Easter, Elmo, New York, Western New York. David is from the north of the city, and I am from the south, IG: 16:56 I see, I see. JM: 16:57 So we had to go to Binghamton to meet. IG: 17:02 So where did you continue your education? JM: 17:04 Well, when I went back home, worked at Fisher Price toy company, and David and I were married when I was 19 and he was 20. He was still at Harpur just finishing. DM: 17:19 And I still had a year to still had two semesters to go. Speaker 3 17:22 Right. So we lived in Johnson City was it, Floral Avenue? We had an apartment there. I worked at Endicott Johnson while he went to school. DM: 17:35 And then we came up here. I continued graduate school. She worked at Upstate Medical and then decided she wanted to go back to school. IG: 17:45 So what-what did you do? JM: 17:47 I went down at a community college. I graduated from there, and then I transferred into Syracuse University, and I have a master's in English literature, undergrad degree in English literature and journalism. Speaker 3 18:01 Oh, so you remember [crosstalk] JM: 18:04 It took me about 10 years to get back. IG: 18:06 I mean, you were supporting a husband, right? JM: 18:08 Yeah. And when he graduated, I said, “Okay, it is my turn now.” Speaker 4 18:14 And so-so what did you, what did you do in your working life? You were uh- JM: 18:19 I worked in the offices Medicare at Upstate Medical. I worked in business offices at both Fisher Price and Endicott-Johnson. Actually, I started at Fisher Price on the assembly line and-and I said to myself, I do not want to be a lifer putting these together. So I took a test for computer. What do I want to say skills which I did not have? I mean, nobody did at that time, but they brought me into the office, and I worked in their office after that. So that started me in office. IG: 19:00 I see, I see. Well, so as-as married students, you had a completely different perspective on- DM: 19:11 Yeah, we- IG: 19:11 -the college. DM: 19:13 Yeah. Well, let us see. We arrived in fall of (19)63 November, because that was the second trimester. Excuse me, and I went home to Buffalo the first summer. And then when I came back, I stayed right straight through until I had finished. So I actually I am commencement class of (19)67 but I finished my degree at the end of October (19)66 so I was back for my-my commencement in (19)67 but so for the last two trimesters. Janet and I lived on Floral Avenue off campus, but we still had, you know, our friends came over to our house. [laughs] IG: 20:17 So it was, it was a kind of a seamless transition for you to, you know, move from dormitory life to your own apartment. Speaker 1 20:29 Yeah-yeah. It was not, I do not remember any anything in terms of-of any kind of special adjustment. The only thing that was really tough was I had the ideal senior schedule. No class started before noon, but I had to drop Janet off. I- we had to be up before six o'clock because Janet started work at Endicott Johnson. I think it was something like 7:30 and I had to drive her to Endicott-Johnson, drop her off, drive over to campus, get there about eight o'clock and not have any classes until noon. JM: 21:05 It is time to study. DM: 21:07 And-and because most of my friends were either seniors or juniors, they were still asleep at eight. And so I would go down into the common room at Whitney and-and study or-or nap. IG: 21:25 I am curious, how did you conduct your courtship leading to a marriage at a college with curfews, especially for women? DM: 21:36 Yes, well, on-on her-her birthday that that spring, one of our friends came back with a car for second semester, only car among all of us, Alan Gurwitz and my mother had had walking pneumonia when I was in high school, and with three boys, we had to take over doing her chores for a summer. And my chore at that time was ironing, and so I had learned to iron, and back then you did not have wrinkle free shirts. And so I offered to iron five shirts for Alan if he would lend me the car for Janet's birthday. He told me afterwards, if I would told him one shirt, he would have given me the car. Five shirts, he was in heaven. So I ironed five shirts for him, and got the car and we went off had dinner, and then went to see Lawrence of Arabia, which is too long a film. IG: 22:51 Yes. DM: 22:51 Because this was a weekend, and her curfew was not 10:30 which it was during the week, but noon, excuse me, noon. Yeah, midnight, midnight. And so, yeah, noon, [laughter] midnight, and we got, we got to-to the intermission in Lawrence of Arabia, looked at the at the time and thought, there was no way in the world we were going to have a 15- or 20-minute intermission. Watch the whole second half and get back to make curfew. So I do not think Janet ever saw the second half of Lawrence of Arabia for another 15 years, nor did I, but no we- courting, I think is fairly easy on a college campus. If you have a close relationship, you see every you see each other every day. JM: 23:45 Yeah. DM: 23:45 So for that first year, and by the end of the first year, we were pretty much committed to each other. Then we lived in Western New York, so when I went home for that-that summer, Janet was on the south side, I was on the north side, but I was back and forth. You know, all the time I worked at a wholesale florist, which is where my father was working. At that time, he was a salesman for a wholesale florist, and I got a job there, and they would throw out flowers that were beginning to turn a little bit on wholesale level, which meant that they were still really good, because they had not even gone to retail yet. And so all that summer Janet had roses, probably- DM: 24:34 -because they would throw out sprigs. The guy who handled the orchids, as soon as there was one spot on one of the orchids, and they come in sprigs, you know, as soon as you saw one brown spot, they would go out. And we were not supposed to pick them up, but I was not going to let these gorgeous orchids lie in the garbage. So I would pick them up and [inaudible], so she would get sprigs of orchids for that in that summer. JM: 24:35 And orchids. That convinced me. I married this guy. [laughs] IG: 24:40 That is lovely. JM: 24:44 Yeah. DM: 25:02 So-so, and then I went back to school. JM: 25:05 But also because in Whitney, we played ping pong all the time. We socialized all the time, because it was a co-ed dorm. Speaker 1 25:13 Yeah-yeah. The atmosphere, the atmosphere in Whitney, was very different. And of course, this was a different era. You know the- this was a radical notion of having one wing male and one wing female. I mean that, and that was as far as it went. At 10:30 you had the common areas were separated. The men had the upstairs, the women had the downstairs. All of all the vending machines were downstairs. So people would call down if they would hear one of the women downstairs call down, throw down money, and they would get, they would get things from the vending machines and throw them back up. But- and the other interesting thing is that when the 10:30 curfew occurred, a bunch of us, one-one night, sat down, and one of me said, "Okay," right, you know, "Why-why do the women, why do the women have a curfew," right? And you know, what would we think if we had a curfew. So-so remember, this was the (19)60s, when things were being challenged. And of course, by the time we were done- JM: 26:24 [inaudible] early (19)60s. DM: 26:25 This is early (19)60s. This is (19)63. JM: 26:28 (19)63-(19)64. DM: 26:28 And so this is when things are just beginning to be challenged. But-but tremendous change. By the time the- a number of our good friends left. They were in Co-Ed suites, in-in-in, what the-the? JM: 26:50 Hinman [inaudible] DM: 26:52 Yeah, the Hinman, the com- the complex is over there. JM: 26:56 Yeah. DM: 26:56 I mean, when we were there, they none of the, none of this was well- Speaker 1 26:59 And, you know, because of the separate wings, we would have open houses, and you would be able to visit the others' rooms. IG: 27:03 Right. JM: 27:03 Leaving the door open, leaving, what, three- DM: 27:12 Three feet on the floor and a door open. IG: 27:14 So I am, I am interested, how did do you remember challenging any of these rules, or questioning these notions about segregating the sexes. Um, I mean- DM: 27:26 Not there were not any, there were not any major- IG: 27:28 Your-your close friends. DM: 27:30 We talked about it. I do not think there were any. We did not get involved in any actual protests of it that I recall JM: 27:38 How about the boards? They would, they call them, the student- DM: 27:44 Judicial Board? JM: 27:45 Judicial Board to deal with- DM: 27:48 Yeah, people who buy violated curfew, yeah. We were the only dorm that had males on the on that-that panel, because, in every, in every yeah- JM: 28:01 [inaudible] feeling that this was not fair. DM: 28:03 Yeah, you try to be. Yeah. because I served on it for-for a semester. We had friends who served on it. IG: 28:11 So if you had so the judicial board that you served on, how would the complaints or escalate. Who would hear them? What impact would that have? DM: 28:25 Yeah. Mostly it was, yeah. Mostly it was violation of curfew, and you just had to decide. And there were penalties, you know, you had to decide, and whether there was a legitimate excuse, right? JM: 28:36 [inaudible] campus, you would be restricted. DM: 28:39 Yeah, and the- so it was, you know, that I think at that point we thought that it was ridiculous, but at that point we were not ready to-to start protesting. I think that came about just sort of naturally, as I say, by the time we were finishing up, the campus situation had changed tremendously from-from what it was, but it did. It did create for us a unique atmosphere unlike any of the other dorms. Because we did, it was just a group of friends and somebody say, you know, tired of studying, you would walk down to one of the common room, say, "Anybody interested in going see a ball game?" If there happened to be a ball game that, right? You know, basketball game, we go down and-and together, and it would just be whoever was there. And when we got a little bit older, and people, more people, had cars the place, we would go, Oh, I almost had the name of the of the dive, but I cannot remember, we go to Sharkies. Fact, that is where we did not go to the dinner that was sponsored at the reunion. The group of us who were there went to Sharkies because that was, that was the place we-we would go to speedies. Third speaker 29:55 I have a question related to that. So were there any women like in your dorm that rebelled against this idea and took an initiative? DM: 30:10 Not that I recall, I think that, I think there were some complaints about it, but at this point, this was pretty much what the practices were everywhere, you know, was not, it was not, it was not as, yeah, it was not as, yeah, it was not as if it this was something unique to Harpur, you know, I kind of understand. So I do not remember any-any kind of organized protest. I just remember that, you know, people beginning to question it, and- JM: 30:42 It was more restrictive than what I had at home. DM: 30:45 Yeah-yeah. That was something else saying, [crosstalk] yeah-yeah-yeah. A lot, a lot of- for some of the 16-year-old out of the city, it was different, I think. IG: 30:57 How so? DM: 30:58 Well, because they were 16 years old, although, I mean, I have a lot of city friends, and city friends are sophisticated in some ways, and parochial in others. IG: 31:08 How so? DM: 31:10 Well, because they-they are exposed to-to culture in the city of a rich kind. I mean, New York is one of the greatest cities in the world. So you are exposed to-to a richness of culture that you just do not have in certainly any other city in New York State, and in few cities in the world that you can match that. So they have that. But by the same token, a lot of them just know New York City. [crosstalk] So, yeah, so it is you know. So it is you know that there was an expansion of their world to be in upstate New York. JM: 31:51 We took some friends to Western New York, to our good friends farm, dairy farm, and they were like, "Cows. Wow!" Me, "This is where milk comes from." IG: 32:08 I am curious about the youth movement that was kind of growing in momentum in around that time, (19)63-(19)64. Did it have any influence on you? You know, rock and roll was beginning, um or...? DM: 32:30 Well, the-the actually- IG: 32:33 Sexual freedoms, drugs, that was all in the air, that was kind of filtering through- JM: 32:38 And Vietnam. IG: 32:40 -and Vietnam, which I will [inaudible]. Absolutely. Speaker 1 32:45 The theme of our orientation, which was chosen by the upperclassmen who ran the program, was all the orientation was completely run by students, as I recall it, but their theme was, do not think that at your age, you have to now know what you are going to do for the rest of your life. Take your time. It you know who says you have to be done in four years, you can take as much time as you want, take a take a semester off, take a year off. Do right! If you are not sure, find out what you want to do. And three years later, you could not do that without finding yourself in Vietnam. So it was a tremendous- that was, that was one of the biggest changes, was that, all right, I mean, the-the war in (19)63 was-was not anything yet that had had really was affecting people. Yeah, I had a good colleague who graduated from West Point and was over there as an advisor in the early days of Vietnam. But I-when we went on the campus, that was not an issue. It became an issue. As I said, it became an issue of, I was reclassified one a three times, but never went. IG: 34:09 I am sorry. DM: 34:10 I was reclassified one A, which, right, which meant immediately draft eligible three times, but I was never drafted. I was as I finished up at Harpur in the fall of (19)66 and I was immediately reclassified one a I challenged that I was going to challenge it as an objector because I did not agree. I did not think we should be in Vietnam. Changed that to arguing that I was class of (19)66 not class of (19)67 because even though it was my commencement class, and if you were (19)66 on and you were accepted to grad school, you continued to get a student deferment, and my draft board accepted that argument. And so I was defied that gave me my deferment until I finished grad, graduate, grad school. And then I forget how it came that it was the three times but-but by the time I finally was draft eligible, they had had the lottery system, and they never got to my number. They were nowhere near getting to my number. IG: 35:27 I am sorry- DM: 35:28 They never got anywhere near my number. They- the war was winding down. Then I finished my graduate work in (19)71, right? And so I never had to. I-I had to face it in the sense that I went through a I went through a physical in Buffalo. I got called for a physical. Went through a whole physical. JM: 35:50 And a lot of soul searching. DM: 35:52 Oh yeah, because I did not, because I did not, I had pretty much decided I would not, I would not serve in the war, because I did not think that it was a war that we should have been in. And so- Speaker 4 36:05 Was that, was that a common feeling among your friends? DM: 36:09 Yes. IG: 36:11 On campus? DM: 36:12 Among the friends that we were just with or get together with regularly, two of them were-were graduates of-of (19)66 and-and they got their-their deferments and managed not to go. One of them got his medical degree and served in the Public Health Service out in Arizona with the Native Americans. But of-of those group, one way or another, none of us ever ended up going to Vietnam. Another one was a conscientious objector, but racist and atheist, and his draft board rejected it because he did not have a religious affiliation. He refused. He refused induction. Was a fugitive from justice for two and a half years, without them ever pursuing him. He- his first wife, and he decided on a divorce because she, although she agreed with him, she did not want to, you know, continue that it was an amicable divorce. But they were, you know, they were also a Harpur couple. He continued on his own. He ended up in, I think it was in Philadelphia, at a Quaker protest, sit down protest, and when they checked his record and found out, all of a sudden, they put cuffs on him. Off he went. He had to go to but when his case came up, the judge looked at it and said, "This is the most arbitrary decision I have ever seen by a draft board," because he had, he had documentation of his conscientious objective status, and they just rejected it because he had no religious affiliation. So after all of that right, he was, he was free, and the case was dismissed. But all of us, all of us, that was, I think, the-the largest issue, and I, none of us favored the war, and all of us, through good fortune, were able to avoid service. IG: 38:32 And yet you grew, you probably experienced a very pervasive sense of anxiety, and that that really had an impact on your personal lives. DM: 38:45 Yeah, that, yeah. Once I once I was given the, once my draft board accepted my status, as long as I was in graduate school, my anxiety, well, I actually was not, I think I got reclassified as I when I completed my master's, but they immediately reversed that on the basis that I was continuing the PhD program, that there was no, there was no break in my- in my graduate school. IG: 39:16 Right. DM: 39:16 So I had to, I had the master's degree, but it was, it was continuous graduate school, and so that was, I think, the second time. But that did not, that did not upset me, because at that point, I think I pretty much knew that it would be automatic, that I could write, that I could get it. So the most tension we had was when I was first reclassified, and we were- IG: 39:40 At Harpur College? DM: 39:41 We had just finished Harpur College. Actually, we were up here in Syracuse, because I, and I cannot remember was-was the reclassification come when- JM: 39:58 I think it must have been up here in Syracuse. DM: 40:03 Yes, it had. Yeah. JM: 40:03 Because we were here in (19)67. DM: 40:03 Yeah, but, yeah, but-but as soon as I, as soon as I graduated in (19)66 so it may have been, it may have been, it may have been November. It may have been November, December. I think it was November of December. And we were still down in Binghamton, yeah, was right after out of Harpur, we were still living in Floral Avenue that-that-that was the, that was the greatest tension for those two months. IG: 40:22 So did you feel any support from your professors? Did they shelter you somehow? Did they encourage you to stay in school and pursue your graduate degrees to avoid the draft? Did you feel that kind of involvement from faculty or...? DM: 40:41 When okay at Harpur, it, I do not remember it being an issue within my classes at Harpur. It was an issue when I was in graduate school here and in talking to person who was the chair of the department, he sort of, he did not really agree with me, but he did not say outright that. He did not. He did it in a sort of backhanded way. But so in that one instance, JM: 40:42 But that was in Syracuse. DM: 41:14 Yeah, but at Harpur, I do not, I do not remember being involved again. I was off campus, you know, from the time we were married. And I do not remember any- anything. On campus itself, except that the general atmosphere, pretty much of almost everyone I knew, was that the war was a mistake. So-so that I think that pretty much predominated. I do not know that we knew people who-who really were in favor of the of the war. Certainly none of our close friends were. IG: 42:12 And do you suspect the-the faculty? Speaker 1 42:16 My suspicion would- was that the faculty was, for the most part, not pro war either. IG: 42:22 What do you remember about- were there any influential professors that you remember from Harpur College and that they took a personal interest in you and your career? DM: 42:35 Yeah, the very first philosophy course I took, still not really understanding fully what philosophy was-was-was from, and by the name of C. Wade Savage, yes, because he went by Wade. And by the- my first philosophy paper, I got a D minus, minus. He did not fail me, but I ended up getting an A in the course. And he wrote a really nice note at the end, saying, you know, because I had let him know that, you know, that this was, you know, this is something that I really thought I wanted to pursue, and I had other people were writing philosophy papers- were coming and talking to me and writing their papers. And I-I started out very poorly, but he wrote me an encouraging note. And then I, there were two others that I took most of my courses from somebody else who did not use his first name. Thomas was his first name, but he went by Patterson, T. Patterson Brown, and who was and very young, Brown was published when he was an Amherst- at Amherst as an undergraduate, and I think got his PhD from the University of London at age 24-25 and was hired. And then Emilio Roma, who also was very young. So these were all people who were only six, seven, maybe eight years older than I was, who were there and I got encouragement. In fact, Roma had what I thought was the ideal life. He lived with his wife in a farm house across the border in Pennsylvania, because I did my senior thesis with him and-and I was finishing up over the summer semester, and he was not teaching the summer semester, so I-I drove to his house to go over, go over it with him. And he had two absolutely beautiful children living in this rural setting, you know, as a professor of philosophy, and I thought, what a wonderful world, and he died young. I cannot remember now how many years ago, but I remember seeing a notice that- IG: 45:08 Do you think he might have been a role model for you, that- Speaker 1 45:14 I certainly-certainly the he had. What for me was, an ideal life, you know, as because, as a philosopher, if you do not teach, they do not hire many industrial philosophers. [laughter] So-so-so yeah, so, so he had, yeah, and I got encouragement from him. I got encouragement from Brown. I took a couple of courses with Brown where there were only junior level. There were only four or five of us in the class, so it was a lot of one-on-one discussion. He was the one who had me go to Syracuse. Brown encouraged me to go on to Syracuse because I was, I was interested at that time in philosophy of religion, but at that time, philosophy of religion was sort of dying out. And he said, "Yeah, well, you got Austin at-at Michigan," but he said, "I would not really go there." He said, "Better go someplace that has a really solid foundation in history of philosophy. You are better off building on that and then you can specialize later." And he said, "Syracuse has a, has a good program." So I was accepted into three different programs, but because I was finishing in the beginning of November, nobody had money, right. Everybody said, “No, you can apply, but you are not going to be able to get financial assistance until the following fall.” And so one of the three places I was skeptic to was San Diego, University of California in San Diego, North Carolina, Chapel Hill and Syracuse, all accepted me. All said, you know, you can apply for financial aid, but we are not going to have any available. So- JM: 47:18 Neither one of us came from wealthy families [crosstalk] DM: 47:21 So we were not going to go all the way out. We were not going to relocate that far without any guarantee. So we came up here to Syracuse, and I was on finance. I had NEA fellowship, and I had a I got a Woodrow Wilson dissertation fellowship, so I finished without having to pay a cent in-in tuition, except for the first semester that I had to go in and back then that was affordable. IG: 47:50 Well, I have this question, actually two questions. But first of all, what was the emphasis of the philosophy department at Harpur College of the time? Did it have a focus on the philosophy of religion, or what kind of philosophy were you studying? DM: 48:12 I was, I was taking a smattering of courses. I do not know that I thought of them as having any emphasis, mainly because, remember, there was no, there were no grad programs. And if you have program in philosophy, it was geared for graduate programs. They were building one. In fact, the joke used to be retired studying, let us, let us go over the Esplanade and look for the graduate student. I do not remember how many. I remember only one ever being identified. So, you know, they were just building grad programs. So Harpur was pretty much a, you know, the range of courses, and I think, if you were majoring in philosophy, they expected you to take a range, and you might find something that you were mostly interested. I did- ended up in esthetics with Roma. Brown taught philosophy or religion, and as I said, he sort of discouraged me from pursuing that. But again, saying that, rather than pursue anything immediately, you know, pursue-pursue, general background history of philosophy, because that gives you a foundation to go any-any direction you want. IG: 49:30 You had a very important experience in your first philosophy class from you know, you were- you did poorly on your first test, and then you completed it with flying colors. What do you think what changed you and what did you learn from that first course? Do you recall it at all? DM: 49:55 Well, it was, it was, I think that it was simply a matter of-of focusing differently, on-on the issue. I cannot even remember exactly what I had done wrong in the in the first one, that was such a disaster. But again, just, I think, I think being in class, engaging in the classroom discussions. I think getting encouragement through the give and take within the classroom is what probably brought me to, you know, to doing better. IG: 50:36 You said, you said, when you first came to Harpur you had no understanding of what philosophy was, but you wanted to study it. What did you learn in that first class about philosophy? Why did it open- DM: 50:52 Well, I think that it involved [crosstalk] it involved critical thinking about important human questions. That is, that is because I spent my-my career teaching and teaching on a community college level. So I was teaching freshmen and sophomores, and so what I did for my whole career as a teacher of philosophy was to focus on how to develop critical thinking skills and apply those to the questions that human beings find, find most important. So I think that became my-my emphasis from the time I you know, from-from Harpur College on and right-right through my professional career. JM: 50:53 Excuse me, but your classes, what was the class size? And you are talking about the give and take of discussion- DM: 50:53 Yeah. JM: 50:53 -and that depends. I mean, I remember the student ratio was very good, right? And so your classes were very small. DM: 51:29 Yeah. I think the biggest class I probably had in philosophy was probably no more than about 25 students, and a lot of them were-were smaller, as I said, I took several classes with-with-with Patterson Brown, that there were, you know, six, seven of us in in the class. And, of course, there you get, you know, it was, it was very-very immediate, give and take. JM: 52:18 When you get the lecture hall experience- DM: 52:19 Yeah, vastly, [crosstalk] different yeah. JM: 52:20 -different than philosophy, DM: 52:25 But- Speaker 4 52:27 Small classes. And did you have an occasion to discuss the ideas that you learned in class with your classmates and- DM: 52:37 Some it was interesting. None of, none of the close friends of mine were philosophy majors. They majors in lots of different things, chem major, bio majors. They went on- JM: 52:49 Psychology majors- DM: 52:50 -psychology majors- JM: 52:51 -math majors. DM: 52:52 Yeah. So no, what most of my discussions were when people found they had to take a philosophy class. Friends of mine who were not into philosophy would come and talk to me about-about that, and I would- I was able to help. I think some of them JM: 53:12 And your roommates saying "David, you are not [inaudible].” DM: 53:15 Oh yes, I remember there was a running joke roommates or various friends would come into the room and when I would be lying back on the on my bed, say, "Do not you ever study?" And I say, "Yeah, I am." But- IG: 53:35 So did- DM: 53:36 Actually, that is true, because before you write a philosophy paper, a lot of it is simply the you know, the working out through your head, what you know, what-what-what you are going to do with it, but, but that was a running joke. IG: 53:50 So do you credit your professors at Harpur College in really giving you the foundation for your future career? DM: 54:01 Oh, yeah-yeah. I-I thought I had a wonderful education. I think all of the good friends that we have all considered that they had really solid-solid foundation from-from Harpur College. I think almost all of us are proud to be graduates of Harpur College. By the way, one of, one of the people who was there when I was there, was there when we came back for the trimester thing, Anthony Preus, I do not know if he is still there or not. Professor Preus, Professor Preus, he was in. He ancient-ancient philosophy was his-his area, JM: 54:25 Which is one of the areas that you I went into. DM: 54:49 Later on, yeah, but as I say there, I touched on various things. The only thing that I specialized at all in was I wrote my uh, senior thesis in esthetics. But for the rest of the time, it was just touching on lots of, lots of different periods of the history of philosophy in the different areas. You know, I took a logic course, I took an ethics course, and Third speaker 55:12 So you were into classical thinking, classical- DM: 55:20 Well, I have Third speaker 55:21 Plato? DM: 55:23 Yeah, when I ended up doing my-my-my doctorate in-in Plato, on Plato, on Plato's esthetics, actually, so, so. JM: 55:35 But you used the Socratic method in your teaching. DM: 55:37 Yeah [laughter] IG: 55:41 Did you discuss what you were learning with your wife since you were living off campus? Did you how do you remember him during this period? Speaker 1 55:54 I do not know. It is hard to say I remember one of the things, not while he was at Harpur, but when he was working on his dissertation, going to the beach while I was in at work. DM: 56:06 That was my master's thesis. [laughter] I had a, I had a summer in which I was all of my courses were paid for because I was on a fellowship, and it covered the credits for my master's thesis. And so I was registered as a full-time student for all those credits, but my task was simply to write my master's thesis, and I would drop her off at work, and I would drive to Green Lake State Park, [laughter] spread my blanket on the beach and get out my books. [laughs] And if, if a friend of ours had not come back and needed to be driven around looking for a job, I would have actually completed it at the beach. I was had almost written the last part. JM: 56:57 I also typed his papers. And then when it came to his PhD, I said, "No [inaudible], I am not going to type your PhD." IG: 57:05 So you know, were there any women in your philosophy classes? DM: 57:15 Yes, one I remember by name Laurie Billing, because the person who was most influential in my undergraduate was Patterson Brown. And Patterson Brown was married. At the time, he divorced his wife and he married Laurie Billing. [laughter] So yeah, and Laurie and I used to sit around and talk about because we- she took a number of courses from Brown as well as I did. So we knew each other from a number of different courses. So she and I would, you know, would talk over the material in the courses on a regular basis. IG: 57:57 At that point, there were really no rules about professors dating their students. Speaker 1 58:05 I think there probably were rules, but since he divorced and married her, I do not know that there was- IG: 58:09 Yeah. DM: 58:10 -I do not, I do not know. I do not know if that created problems. He had, he had real problems after I left. He ended up leaving without finishing a semester. And friends of ours found him in their suite, asleep on a on a couch one-one night. So what happened with-with him? I do not know. I never got a full-full account. I think it probably was a case of a whole lot of success and pressure from too young an age, because I think he completed his PhD at London by age 24. IG: 58:53 You completed your PhD by age- DM: 58:55 26. JM: 58:56 -26. DM: 58:56 But the 20-24 is-is, you know, because he had, he had expect- JM: 58:59 He probably had a lot of pressure. DM: 59:00 Well, he had expectations because he published as an undergraduate. IG: 59:08 Right. DM: 59:09 No, so-so anyway, that that I do not know what, what happened to him after that, and I asked once, and somebody else did not know either. IG: 59:23 Were there any international students in your philosophy classes? Do you remember any students of color? DM: 59:32 Not there. IG: 59:33 International from anywhere? DM: 59:37 Yes. Well, yeah, there was from Africa. I never got to be a close friend of his. Our other friends did. Who knew him very well. He went back. He was part of political and I am even blanking on his name. But you know, friends, yeah, you probably have because you. You have interviewed Jeff and Jan Strauss, and they were, they were close friends of his, but again, because I think he became a close friend of theirs at the time that we were off campus. And so I knew him, but very- I did not know him well as they did, and-and- Speaker 1 1:00:21 That was the difference, I think, between when we were there and our daughter went to Harpur, and graduated from Harpur, well, from Binghamton, and she went there for the diversity and, and I think that it built up, you know, over the years- DM: 1:00:40 Yeah. JM: 1:00:40 -but I do not recall it being, I mean, to us, diversity was all these Jewish friends DM: 1:00:47 for her, for her. What was really interesting, though, is- JM: 1:00:50 I came from a rural area that there was one Jewish family, no blacks. It was very, you know monoculture. DM: 1:00:57 Yeah, but my high school was interesting because even though we- I was, you know, in upstate, you know, North of Buffalo High School and was huge, my graduating class was over 600. I went, I went to eight graduation parties as a senior, seven of them were in homes of Jewish friends. So and, you know, I was raised as a Catholic so-so going down to-to Harpur, where there was a very high percentage of Jewish students, to me, was not unusual at all, but for a lot of upstate rural New Yorkers, you know, the that-that was a difference, but-but well, and you know, and just you know, there is, there is, there are differences between upstate and downstate, but never-never, never, any that that we found troubling or bothersome, as I say, you know, these are, these are these are friends we have had ever since. And, yeah, and, and I do not ever remember any clashes of that, of that sort. Again, it was, it was the beginning of open mindedness. IG: 1:02:19 How about your family? How they, how do they look upon you, the philosopher, their son, the philosopher? Speaker 1 1:02:27 Well, my father never quite got it right. I had to constantly correct my father on it. My mother, my mother idolized PhDs, so the fact that I got one was-was something that was tremendously important to my, to my mother, so that you know that-that, I guess, was, was, of yes, as I said, of tremendous importance that my parents were in the as I went off to school, my parents were in the process of getting divorced, and that is another real good friend of ours, also from Harpur days, who lives in Larchmont. She is right across the tracks from Larchmont, but she and I formed a close bond because both of us had family tensions that we were really happy to be at Harpur because we were away from those family tensions. DM: 1:03:34 Well, that is part of the reason we got married so young, was David did not want to go home, and I did not want to be home. IG: 1:03:41 So you know, during your time at Harpur College, during your years, what changes did you see the campus go through the physical campus? DM: 1:04:00 Yeah, well, they started the building. Let us see they built the- JM: 1:04:03 The camps in the woods. DM: 1:04:06 -the administration tower went up. They actually, they were just building the-the ones down the hill, when we first started, when-when we were first there, there was only one dining hall. It was Newing when they when they started the second one, most students called it brand Newing. The-the dorm complex opened, I think, the second year, which was the one by Lake Lieberman and-and my story of Lake Lieberman is different from everybody else's story about Lake Lieberman, so I do not know what the real story is, but my story about Lake Lieberman got his name because a bunch of student government people over the summer wanted to name the lake they went randomly through a list of students. Finger landed on Elliot Lieberman. He was not attending that trimester, so they called him up and paid his bus fare to come in, up, dedicated the lake to him, and then threw him in. And Lake Lieberman was just that. I do not even know if it is filled in, it is just a pond anyway, that is that is the story I heard of how Lake Lieberman got his name, named for Elliot Lieberman, and he was special invitation. He was a student. He just was not attending that-that semester. But you know that by the time I was the commencement, we had friends who were in, you know, in the-the new dorm, complexes that were being built when we first started there. You know, it had the shape of the brain, and there was nothing to the- let us see, that would have been the south off the top of the brain. That was just all woods. In fact, I used to hike through that. That was, it was I started that as a, as a habit when I was in high school. I just go out for long walks as a way of relieving tension. And I would just wander off over that hill and through-through the woods, sometimes even at night, just, you know what, if it were clear enough that you could see where you are going. So, so that is all champion. You know, what was all wilderness now is all, is all developed. And then, yeah, and then, then we, you know, we had the-the Esplanade, which was the site every year of the stepping on the coat ceremony, which you probably, if you have interviewed other people- IG: 1:06:46 Yes-yes. DM: 1:06:47 -which was- it would be, you know, there would be one, one person who was formally discarding the coat. And then they would, and it would, I it was either April 1 or the first week of April. But anyway, you take off the coat, and then they would recite one that [citing in old English], throw it down and stamp on it. And that was the-the official start of spring was-was the stepping on the coach ceremony? IG: 1:07:25 You went through enormous changes during your undergraduate career, personally and intellectually. And how did you- at the end of this period? How did you begin- did you have any How did your perception of where you came from, of yourself change during this period? DM: 1:07:49 Oh, I do not know that. I do not know that I would say that there was, I do not, I do not think that I went through anything during that time that I would call a major change. I think it was just a sort of steady progression of who I was from the time I was in high school, right through my undergraduate, I formed friendships. I had formed strong friendships in high school. I still were getting together with a couple in a couple of weeks, he and I have been friends since seventh grade, and so, you know, I do not know that there was any major change, except, of course. JM: 1:08:45 No, I was thinking, you came in join Newman Club. DM: 1:08:50 That, okay, the major-major change was probably my religious beliefs. The first thing I did was join Newman Club. I was up here in Syracuse the first week that I was on campus at Harpur, because I came up with somebody they wanted, they needed somebody to represent Harpur College's Newman Club at a at a statewide Newman Club mentioned, and I came up here for that, IG: 1:09:18 And the Newman Club was after Cardinal- Speaker 1 1:09:21 No, yeah, that yeah, that is, yeah, that is the, that is the campus-campus Catholic youth student organization. And so I, that was the first thing I joined. By the end of the-the first semester, I told the head, the- then president- JM: 1:09:42 John Phillips. DM: 1:09:43 John Phillips that I was dropping out of Newman Club because I was no longer a Catholic, and he knew that I was going with Janet, and he told me that it would never last, which is why we are still like. Other, yeah, which is why we are still together. It is just despite John, [laughter] I was not let him be right, but, but that and I went from that, I mean, you know, we have talked personally, I went from that to-to having no religious faith at all. I- religious skeptic. Even though I taught philosophy of religion for 20 some years, I would never let them know where I sit. I wanted them one day to be sure that I was a firm theist, and be sure the next day I was an atheist, and the day after that, because I wanted them to think for themselves, and I wanted just to introduce them to the give them the tools by which they could do some serious critical thinking about it, but that my own serious critical thinking just led me to doubts. And doubts are not things that you choose. Doubts come just as you, as you entertain them and-and once they-they become that way. I mean, if you doubt a person, a person's integrity, you cannot choose. IG: 1:11:13 No-no. Well, how did these doubts arise at you know, from-from this early period in your intellectual life? DM: 1:11:24 I think it had, I mean, I think that I chose philosophy simply because what little I knew about it was that it was asking, you know, asking questions. And so the doubts-doubts come, which is why so many strict fundamentalists do not want questions raised. JM: 1:11:49 And your grandparents, your grandparents growing up? Speaker 1 1:11:53 Well, yeah, I grew up in a very interesting environment, because my-my grandparents were people who were Protestant and thought of all Catholic as papists, but my father had been raised as a Catholic, and so my mother converted and promised that the children would be raised as Catholics. And but when I was with my mother's parents, and that was really close to them, I was born when my father was in Tinian in the war, and so I was born into their home. And so she taught Sunday school, and I would be as a little toe head. I would be, I would go along with her to Sunday school. So I, you know, [crosstalk] I was exposed since then JM: 1:12:40 -in the sense of, you know, why would my grandparents go to hell? Speaker 1 1:12:45 Not-not then, not, then I raised. My questions actually were raised when I first had lots of Jewish friends in high school and-and it seemed to me absolutely absurd that they, you know, the- my good friend Bob and I, who were Catholics, were saved. Our friend Dave, who was Protestant, had a smidgen of a chance, because he might come, he might come around. And our good Jewish friend Dick was, you know, he did not have a snowball's chance in hell [laughter] of ever making it, and all of this just seemed ridiculous to me. IG: 1:13:23 Right. DM: 1:13:23 And so my question, my questioning came about, religion came from-from early on, and then when I went but-but I was still, I was still a firm believer when I went [crosstalk] JM: 1:13:33 -into philosophy. DM: 1:13:34 Yes, yeah-yeah. Those are the, those are, yeah, those are the basic questions. And people still ask those questions. I mean, philosophy, what the earliest philosophers are asking those questions? Plato was the first one to develop a theory that there is an immortal soul. I mean, that is comes out of Greek philosophy. Does not come out of Judeo-Christian tradition. It is integrated into it much later. So-so those, yeah, those, those were what led me. So I think it was, it was just that experience, the continuing of the experience I had. I have been tremendously fortunate in the friendships that I have had throughout my life, people I would trust implicitly with, you know, with anything important to me and to have had so many from high school through college to now, has just been-been wonderful. IG: 1:14:32 Did you keep in touch with any of your professors? DM: 1:14:38 No, as I say once I came up here, Brown, shortly thereafter, was-was gone. I think Savage had taken a job somewhere else already, and Roma was the only one who was still there that I had connection with, and I did not, I did not keep up connection with-with-with him. So no, the other person actually was interesting. I was just thinking the other day. Another person who had influence on me was Edmund Wilson [Edward Wilson], who was a black sculptor. Because I found I could take my fine arts requirement by taking a studio art course. And I had always loved to draw, but had never really pursued it, and I took just an introductory drawing course from Edmund Wilson, and Wilson taught me how to look at things and how to conceptualize. And I took, yeah, I took a second course from somebody else who was a shy man. I cannot even remember his name. He was shy. The second course was all art majors, and he would talk to them. And I just felt kind of lost, so I just did whatever projects were necessary to get through it. But Wilson, I- we just fiddle around with drawing for ages. And then when I was coaching, I had a student who wanted to know if she could find a figure drawing class, and asked me if at the college there was one, and I called over it was, and they said, well, one of our adjuncts runs a program over at the Westcott center. So I knew she would not, she did not have transportation get over there. So I-I have been interested in getting back into drawing. And so I took her over there, and I have been doing that ever since. But it- you know, so the drawing has been, is now a part of my life, has been a part of my life. But Wilson-Wilson had a had a real influence, because I thought he was going to teach me how to draw, and he did not. He just taught me how to look and how to conceptualize. And- IG: 1:17:14 Far more important. DM: 1:17:15 It was the key was, and it was something that stayed with me right until I finally had an opportunity to do something on a regular basis, and-and I have been doing that for what, 25 years, I have been going to open figure drawing and-and just enjoying that. So-so yeah, Wilson was- he did a series of I went into his-his studio once or twice. Later, I guess I cannot remember what the occasion was, because I was not taking courses from him, but he did a series called minority man, you know, and as a black sculptor, they were all in wood, and they were very expressive. They were emotional. They-they were figures in emotional trauma just done in-in, you know, in what I, you know, getting tree things, and then just carving them. But they were very powerful. And I saw one of his works in one art history thing that I saw after that, but- IG: 1:18:29 That must have been highly unusual to have a Black art teacher. DM: 1:18:38 Yes, yeah. Speaker 1 1:18:40 Pretty much all one school. Third speaker 1:18:46 How diverse the faculty was at that time? Speaker 1 1:18:48 I do not remember it being an overly diverse faculty, but Wilson-Wilson had a tremendous impact on me because-because he not only was an artist, but he knew how to teach art, you know, and that is, that is, you know, JM: 1:19:01 That is a gift that. DM: 1:19:03 Yeah, that is a gift as well, yeah, and-and he and your grade was on the basis of how he thought where you went, from where you started to where you finished. So there was a young man in there who could not draw to save his life. He would work hard at it, right. [laughs] But Wilson did not fail him, because he worked hard at it, and he was encouraged to do that. The other thing about the difference, going back to how things were different back then, the art studio was open 24 hours a day. The only thing you did not have access to was painting stuff or clay materials, because those you had to pay for. But all the drawing materials, which included, you know, chalks, pastels, uh, charcoal, you know, and drawing paper was there. And I remember one of the projects- IG: 1:20:07 And the doors were open, DM: 1:20:08 -and the doors were open. One of the projects was, I just was not getting it. And so I went over there at, I think, 10:30 at night, and sat down. It was a, it was a pen, and pen and ink still life that I was supposed to do, just a series of bottles, and I had done them, and I, you know, he would go by, and I would look up expectantly, and he would shake-shake his head, no. I mean, he would just say no, right? Actually, we never say no. He just, you know, and I knew that I was not getting it and but I could go over there at night and just work on this on my own. So I went over there, and the bottles are all there, right. And I am looking, I am drawing, no, that is not right. I am doing that, and it is just outlines, right. That is not and all of a sudden, I drew an- oh, right. And I stopped looking at the bottles, because I draw them so many times, I knew all their shapes, and I drew five in a row that I knew he was going to say yes to. Because, again, it is a matter of looking right. JM: 1:21:10 Yeah. DM: 1:21:12 But-but that was the thing. It was those materials were just available at the- at dinner. Only time I have ever put on weight in my life was the first spring semester I was there because I ate two dinners every night. [laughter] My roommate and I had a, had routines going. We played off each other at the table, and group would we go over there early, and a group would sit down with us, and then they would all leave, and we would go back and get a second meal, and another group would join us and go through a second meal. But you could do that. We had lobster tails and steak once a month for birthday-birthday right. IG: 1:21:57 At the cafeteria? DM: 1:21:58 At the cafeteria, lobster tail and steak once a month for- we for special events, they would have a roast beef where they would cut off, you know, you want it from the rare part, right. Unlimited- go back for milk, anything you wanted that first couple of years was unlimited. I had a friend going to Hamilton, who ate nowhere near as well as I did for all the money his parents were paying to send him to Hamilton. JM: 1:22:29 I remember, you know, a bunch of us from Whitney would go over, you know, and he and his roommate, also from Kenmore, at that time, would be doing these routines back and forth. And they were so funny, you know, and everybody was spraying their juice, laughing, things like that. And I remember that. I do not remember the food, except for Blintz. Oh, I could not understand why a Blintz was a dinner. DM: 1:22:55 Yes, they would, they would serve Blintzes as dinner Speaker 1 1:22:57 And bagels and locks, no, that is just no food. DM: 1:23:04 But-but also, when they opened up brand Newing, they had the sandwich lady. And I was- no, I just, I might have gone there once, but the people who regularly went there the sand- is sandwich lady would make up any kind of sandwich you wanted. And you have seen dagwoods, well, people would walk out with sandwiches this high, yeah, okay, that, right? And then that, then, then some of that, right. Another slices, then some of that. [laughs] IG: 1:23:32 Did you take food into your dorm? DM: 1:23:35 I think they were eating those just at the cafeteria that was just said, Just be lunch time ago, and sit at a table, and because it would be tough to carry it, they did not bag it for you. It was not, was not a fast-food place. IG: 1:23:45 The cafeteria was opened certain hours, right? Speaker 1 1:23:48 Yeah-yeah. The cafeteria was, yeah. Cafeterias just-just open for breakfast, lunch and dinner. IG: 1:23:53 What was your relationship with the library? Did you spend a lot of time in the library, or was it open all hours? Speaker 1 1:23:58 I do not remember if it was open all hours. I remember being in the, I remember more in graduate school, because I-I had to, you know, I had a carrel that I had used there, but I remember some very clever graffiti in the Harpur College Library men's room, [laughter] but yeah, the- I do not remember spending that much time in the library, because most of what I was doing was reading primary sources, and those were the books you bought each year. So, you know, if I was not reading commentaries on Leibniz, I was reading Leibniz, I was not reading commentaries on Plato. I was reading Plato. So-so again, was not that grad school level? IG: 1:24:59 Did not the library have these books, these primary materials? DM: 1:25:03 It did as far as I can recall, I never remember anybody complaining that there was something that they could not get. But I did not have call to-to use it that much. JM: 1:25:15 Did you bought them all, right? DM: 1:25:17 Yeah. And back then, books were, books were reasonable. I mean, you know the book-book industry- IG: 1:25:24 How do you how do you think that your classmates from Harpur would remember you? Speaker 1 1:25:29 The only ones who remember me are the ones who still know me. [laughs] IG: 1:25:35 How did they talk about you from this period? How do you think that they would remember you? DM: 1:25:40 Oh, I do not know. I think we all laugh and joke. We were just this last get together, New Year's from an earlier get together when Mark Weinstein was not able to make it, somebody had picked up a badge with his picture from back then on it. And I think the running joke was, well, at least he improved with age. But it was, I do not know. I think that we all pretty much had. I think we are the same people now that we were then, even though Mark Wolraich has had a tremendously important career as a pediatrician, he has, he has written a number of books on dealing with children with special needs. He coordinates a program in right now, out of the University of Oklahoma, that works through the state to coordinate all the services in the state for students with special needs that he organized and put together, but we still rib him the same way we did across the campus, one family across the campus and but it is that it said we establish, yeah, we established an easy kind of relationship of people who are serious when we need to be serious and able to laugh. And I think we, you know, our individual personalities are just developments of what they-they were then. So it is not as so much of thinking how people would remember me, so much as thinking about how glad I am that all those so many of those good relationships I had, them are still a part of my life. Now. IG: 1:27:48 What lessons did you learn from this important period in your life? DM: 1:27:54 I do not know. I think, I think we have kind of- IG: 1:27:56 Covered a lot. DM: 1:27:57 Covered that, yeah-yeah, in general- IG: 1:27:59 But just- DM: 1:28:01 Yeah, no, I think that, as I have said, there was the-the beliefs and-and beliefs I have had about what is most important in life are things that simply developed through the associations there that I was fortunate enough to have good friends. You know, continuation of these, of these good friendships. And so I think that, I think that the- we were open minded to a diverse world. I think that meeting other people who were like that has just established a sort of-of a way of life in which you are critical about things that you think are wrong, but you are open to-to a diverse world of people who-who managed to get to those same places in life by a lot of different routes. And I think that-that started a little bit in in high school, really expanded in college. JM: 1:29:35 I remember, you know, sitting around talking to people about some serious things. DM: 1:29:42 Yeah-yeah. JM: 1:29:42 And, you know, and I think that is came out of that era, um- DM: 1:29:50 Yeah-yeah, no-no topics, no topics seem to be out of bounds. And the discussions that we would have were-were very serious. Whether they are about religion or about politics or about social conditions, or- IG: 1:30:06 Were they ever about the social conditions of women, women's rights? DM: 1:30:10 I think those developed as we went. I think that every woman I still know who is someone I knew back then I would describe as a feminist and-and I had, I had a student, Janet, and I shared a student, you know, went from my class in philosophy to her class in English, came in one day and said, "Dr Muir just yelled at us for not being feminist." And I had not really yelled at him for not being feminist. What I just simply asked him, "How many of you would-would be [inaudible]", this is in the (19)90s. "How many of you would-would say you were feminists?" And very few would raise their hands and I say, Well, you know. And then I would start to explain what feminism, you know, what the early feminism movement meant, and what people would try say and-and talk about, you expect that you can go out for any sport in high school? Of course, you can back then you could not, right? There were not any right. And just try to let them, let them know. I said, yeah, what I said, somehow people who are against feminism have made it a nasty word for young women. I do not understand that. I said, "How can it be a nasty word? Are you against equal pay for equal work? Are you against equal opportunity for in in every profession? Are you?" So-so that was yelling at them, asking, ask him, asking him a series of questions. "Dr. Muir was yelling." But anyway, she was one of the ones I got to, I think it was not yeah, but yeah, it was something that built. It built, I think, you know, it started to build in those years, and it just, you know, it just can continue to build from-from then on. JM: 1:31:59 In short of time, was, I was at Harpur when I decided, you know, to start going back to school and taking classes. I took music appreciation because at Harpur, I had been in a music appreciation class, and it introduced me to opera. I loved Aida, Leontyne Price, and all this music that, you know, I never was exposed to in my family. They were doing Lawrence Welk and stuff like that. But that was what I went back to. And the first literature classes I took was literature by and about women, you know, in the feminist mold and-and I got to teach, and I think it was the last semester I taught her. Last year I taught at OCC. I got to teach a course in literature by and about women. But those things, I came from a family of five girls, and my parents were out of the depression area- era, and they both were interested in going to college, but could not, because they both had to work. And my mother graduated from high school at the age of 16, and, you know, was very much interested in going on to school, and my father wanted to be an architect, so they were determined that all of their daughters would go to college, so there was not a question in my family about trying to go to college. My older sister went to a business school and then dropped out. She was not terribly interested. I went to college and dropped out after a year, which was, I think, a big disappointment to them, but then my next sister, my next sister, my next sister, all three of them went to college, went into nursing, occupational therapy and-and all of that. So growing up in a family of girls, I did not really recognize the lack of opportunity, although when I think back now, there were not any sports for us. And I might have been interested in sports. I now play tennis. I have been playing tennis for 40 years and-and enjoying it, and but there were not those things. So, you know, the feminism, they- was a big thing for me, and I think it started in those years, but I did not capitalize on it until- I did not capitalize, [crosstalk] I went back to college in the (19)70s. IG: 1:34:30 And-and your husband supported you? JM: 1:34:32 Absolutely. And you know, through grad school, there were a lot of couples that Syracuse that broke up because the wives were working and the husbands were in grad school, and they just went different ways. But when David finished his degree, his PhD, that is when I was pregnant with our daughter, and I-I wanted to go back to school. And he said all. Take care of the baby. IG: 1:35:03 How progressive of you. Speaker 1 1:35:05 Well, I still cook all our meals. After [crosstalk] Yeah-yeah-yeah. Because we were, we were married for seven years before he had a child, and then, and then, just as she decided she wanted to go back to-to school, all of a sudden, we found she was pregnant, and-and, but then, yeah, I said, I can I have a flexible- I can manage my schedule, and we can do this and-and-and we did, and made sure that she was able to go back to school. IG: 1:35:38 Well, what concluding remarks do you have? What message would you like to convey to future generations, or this generation listening to your interview? DM: 1:35:57 It is tough, because we came through a golden era that I do not know is going to be repeatable, because with what was happening in the (19)50s, the Cold War, and then Soviets launching Sputnik, and all of a Sudden, huge amounts of money being poured into education, and you combine that with the post war economy, where-where you just had the fastest growing middle class that I think there is ever been, and all of those things coming together for us at just that time, New York State converting their-their colleges into from State Teachers colleges into liberal arts colleges, forming university centers. I mean, Harpur was the first one, but Stony Brook had already begun by the time, you know what, By the second year in or sooner than that, Stony Brook was beginning, and then Albany, and then they purchased [inaudible]. So all of these things are happening at once. We are and I do not see those factors coming together again. We had not to have taken advantage of that would have been a real shame. Everything was there for us. Everything was there for us. But I guess the message would be, look to try to recreate those opportunities wherever you can. It is you- you are not likely to have the same set of circumstances, but we do not want to restrict. We want to-to open up. And I see too many things that are tending toward restricting, again, limiting again. Too many people who are afraid of diversity, afraid of various other things. This was as great a period, I think, as you could live through, and whatever anybody can do to recreate those open conditions, I think that is what they should be trying to do. IG: 1:38:17 Thank you very much. Would you like to add your concluding remarks to this interview? JM: 1:38:27 We have had a really charmed life and-and the fact that our daughter has picked up on a lot of the values that you know, we experience with our friends. We are very proud of her, and that when she wanted to go to college, she looked at Geneseo and she looked at Binghamton. She did not want to go too far, and luckily for us, she did not want to spend a lot of money. [laughter] But when she looked at Geneseo, she said “It is a lot of the same people.” She went to Marcellus High School, which is very small and rural. She said “It is a lot of the same people,” you know, a monoculture of middle class white upstate. And she said, I want to go to Binghamton because of the diversity and-and it was hard for her to go into that big school from here, but she was in Hinman, she was in a suite with, you know, that gave her a smaller cohort of-of students to be with, and she made wonderful friendships, and she had a wonderful experience at Binghamton. So even though it is bigger, she still had a core experience there that was very positive for her. So you know, it is still a great place to go. Yeah, I would say, even though my experience was not a positive one there, I have seen that it was- DM: 1:40:12 There was one thing that I did not that I did not say that-that to me, characterized the- an attitude that is no longer there, because Binghamton went division one sports and-and my understanding was that the President wanted to do it, and the faculty was against it, and as I was against it, in fact, I talked to people who were calling on fundraising drives, and I saying, oh, the most thing I am most disappointed in it was going Division One, because division one and what happened? It was a scandal. Why? Because you cannot build a division one program. Why would you go to a demanding school like Harpur instead of Cornell, right, which is still right, still, it is Ivy League. It still has the name. Why go there right when neither one is going to be able to offer you scholarship, and Cornell has been added a law a lot longer, and they know how to they know how to work the system. And I did not think they could write and what did they have? They had a scandal when we were there. It was Division three. I ran Division Three track until I got married [laughter] and-and it was fun, right. We, we played games on the on the small- it was a van we would go in, right? The coach would drive us in a van. Coach Lyons would drive us in a van, and the basketball team, right. JM: 1:41:41 Harass them. [inaudible] DM: 1:41:43 Yeah, that was, that was, that was that was the cheer we would go down there, "Harass them, harangue them, make them really relinquish the ball." I mean, that was, you know, that was the kind of fun sort of thing that you did. And it was, but it was very different. And because it you-you did not go there for athletics. The athletics were there because they were part of a traditional education. And the people in the in the phys ed department were wonderful instructors. Were great down there when we when we started the- but it was an academic institution, thoroughly and division one schools are not, first of all, academic institutions. If you are a division one, of course, they are never going to go football, thank goodness. But I have a loyalty to SU [Syracuse University] big on Division One, everything, but I really liked Harpur as a division three school. I wish it could have stayed a division three school. I think. I wish they were still chanting, [Harass them, harangue there. Make them. Make them relinquish the ball] at basketball games. IG: 1:42:53 Because that would have kept the emphasis on academics. DM: 1:42:56 Yes, yeah, because then-then- JM: 1:42:58 And sports are for enjoyment. DM: 1:43:00 Sports, yeah, they are, they are, yeah, they are for enjoyment. And you do that, right. You run track because you want to run track. You go out, you know you are out for the basketball team because you want to play basketball. But-but that, to me, was-was what Harpur College was, and I wish it was, was now what Binghamton University is, but it is not. It is not. And that that, to me, is a shame. I think that that is something lost that will never be regained. And I think it is a real shame that, but it is a totally different campus. I mean, you got a school, and you got all these different schools that it was, but still-still, I would love to have seen them have the courage to be a university center and a division and do division three sports. That would have been great, that it would have taken courage, but it would have put them on the map. And I think the best, best way. JM: 1:44:04 I do not know if they have sports for women down there. I really do not have a clue about that, but they did not when we were there. DM: 1:44:09 But they-they-they, they must not. Third speaker: 1:44:11 They have tennis. DM: 1:44:11 Do they have a women's basketball program? Third speaker 1:44:13 Yeah? They do. They have lacrosse- DM: 1:44:20 Yeah-yeah, all the same things, yeah, I will say yeah. But that is- JM: 1:44:28 Now. Third speaker 1:44:28 [crosstalk] tracks obviously. DM: 1:44:30 Yeah-yeah, but-but that-that-that to me, was something that I would have liked to have seen them keep, and it would have been a uniqueness that I think would have-have been a good. So, yep. IG: 1:44:47 Thank you so much. Thank you for a very interesting- DM: 1:44:50 Thank-thank you for having the interest in doing it. JM: 1:44:55 What-what is this going to be used for? (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David and Janet Muir Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Muir, David ; Muir, Janet ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource David is a retired philosophy professor who taught philosophy at Onondaga Community College. He owes a debt to Harpur College, which spurred his lifelong interest in philosophy. He met his wife, Janet, there. He earned his degree in philosophy from Syracuse University. Janet met her spouse, David Muir, at Harpur; she did not finish her degree at Harpur College since she supported her husband through his PhD program at Syracuse University. She earned her degree at Syracuse subsequently and worked as an adjunct instructor in English at Onondaga Community. Looking back, Janet says they've led a "charmed life." Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context David and Janet Muir.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-01-12 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 105:00 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a382eceb0faecbdaf7dd47a854a6cbcd.mp3 a9452bb99f43db86382c7aa66260cf8e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4838a87ced4f2edc0dcd60ca4fe94ba5.jpg 7a2d9234b6877671dc3a4db39bf1851f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-01-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John F. Spiegel Year of Graduation 1965 Biographical Text John Spiegel, PhD, retired in 2015 after a 49-year-career as a student service professional at Nassau Community College. His experience included work as counselor, supervisor, director of Academic Advisement and ultimately, building the college’s Student Services Center. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: John Spiegel Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 26 January 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) JS: 00:02 Very impressive. [laughter] IG: 00:03 So please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are. JS: 00:18 Okay. My name is John Spiegel. I was born on June 11, 1943. Um, some of my classmates knew me as Jack, which was a nickname I acquired in high school, and some of my high school graduate friends who also came to Harpur brought that so some people know me as Jack Spiegel, and where we are in terms of the interview? IG: 00:46 Yes, physical location. JS: 00:49 We are sitting in-in my living room at 98 Riverside Drive and in Manhattan, which is on 82nd Street, and it is about 1:45 in the afternoon on January 26. IG: 01:06 Okay, so just tell me what-what do you do for a living? What is your line of work? JS: 01:15 Okay, well, I am retired. IG: 01:18 Yes. JS: 01:19 I um, I worked, had a career spanning 49 years, retired in September 2015 and I worked as a student service professional for Nassau Community College on Long Island. JS: 01:39 In various capacities, both as direct counselor, advisor, supervisor of programs, coordinators of offices, and finally, my last incarnation there was as the Director of Academic Advisement in a place that did not have an advisement center, and needed one badly, and I initiated that project and made it come to life, which I am very proud of. IG: 01:39 Yeah. IG: 02:09 That is interesting, okay. So maybe tell us, let us go back to your- JS: 02:15 Sure. IG: 02:16 -beginnings and tell us where you grew up. JS: 02:19 I grew up in Inwood, Manhattan. So I am a New York City kid. Inwood is the northernmost community in the island of Manhattan, and that is where I grew up and went-went to high school, Stuyvesant. I commuted to Stuyvesant High School from there and-and that was my, you know, at the age of 18, went, went to Harpur, and never came back to Inwood, except for a few months, maybe to live with my parents when I was between- when I was on a leave of absence from work, traveling. IG: 02:55 So who were your parents? What did they do? Where did they come from? JS: 03:01 My parents were Viennese-Jewish refugees--came from initially, they were in England in- from 1938 to 1940 having barely escaped the Nazis in-in-in Austria, my father was actually a political prisoner in the Dachau concentration camp, and was through some political connections, through my aunt in Washington, which are too detailed to go into, you know, at this point where they were able to get him out of the camp, which was before the war, and that at that time, there was still possibilities people were put in there for political reasons, rather than-than just religious. So he would if that did not happen, I would not be sitting here talking today, and my mother was also, you know, Viennese, and she was able to get out, you know, in (19)38 and go to England for two years, and then they emigrated here to the States. IG: 04:08 And so what do they do in the United States when they came? JS: 04:13 Right. Well, so my father was a psychiatric social worker. He was trained as a lawyer in-in Austria, but could not practice here, and I think, decided not to pursue the law. I think the war, you know, had a big and prewar had a big influence on-on his career direction. My mother was a seamstress. She would do alterations for- in local tailor shops. And that was, that was her primary. I mean, she did not work full time, but that is how she made money. When she did when she did work. IG: 04:51 Um, were there, were there expectations for you to go on with your uh, higher education? JS: 05:01 Oh, absolutely. I mean, there was, there was a clear message. My father was, you know, had achieved Bachelor of Law Degree in Austria, and he was a very educated man. He would constantly let me know how much he knew [laughter] and how much I did not, and but it was clear there was no, there was no alternative that was what was going to happen, which was okay with me, except when I got angry at him, and could use the fact, you know, that I was angry at him, I would use it so I am not going to college. But no, there was no, there was no doubt that that was the track that I was on as to what, where that was going to lead. He never- the one thing I can say for him is that he never put pressure on me to go in a particular direction. You know, his- the message was, you know, you- it is important for you to be educated, which I totally bought into. So. IG: 06:10 And what were your reasons for going to Harpur? JS: 06:14 Okay, this- it was not my first choice. Um, I- you know- IG: 06:24 What was your first choice? JS: 06:25 My first choice was Oberlin College, and I was not accepted there. My second choice was Colby College in Maine. I was accepted there, but it was apparently not financially feasible. Binghamton was or Binghamton, you know, there was no Binghamton at the time, it was Harpur. I had researched it. I remember sitting in my local public library looking at the catalogs, and I said, this sounds pretty good. And I heard about it. And certainly the cost was very-very appealing. And I convinced my father to drive me up there. So we took a trip, and I liked what I saw. I liked what they had to say. And so this really became a viable alternative for me as a way of going, being able to go away to school, because I did not want to stay home. I needed to get out of there--very badly needed that get away from home. So this, it worked. And once-once I decided to go. My only issue at the time was, you know, when I would say to people, they would ask me, where you going to college? I would say, “Harpur.” They would say, “Harvard.” “No,” I say “No, Harpur, it is, it is an upstate in Binghamton. It is part of the State University.” So there was a lot of that, because it was really pretty much an unknown entity at that time. So there was, that was an interesting sort of things, like, I would come back and see my friends and neighborhood and we would have this conversation. But you know that, you know, I was so enthralled with what was happening there and in terms of what I was learning, you know, that any of that anxiety about the prestige or status of or you know, what exactly this place really was about, you know, all fell away. So this was 1961. IG: 08:22 Yeah. What was your reputation of Harpur at the time among your friends? JS: 08:29 And, well, those who knew about it, yeah, those who knew about it said it was, it was difficult to get into. And, you know, I do not remember exactly, you know what-what the average was, but it was pretty clear you needed to have, like, a highs in the 80s or 90 average in high school to get in. It was, I do not think there was an SAT entrance requirement. I think it was pretty much high school average. And you know, that enabled me to. So I knew, I knew it was selective, and certainly because-because the price was so incredibly reasonable that it really became a real alternative for a lot of people. And there were, there must have been 10 or 15 people who went from Stuyvesant to-to Binghamton, you know, to Harpur. IG: 09:22 Including Ron Bayer. JS: 09:23 Right. IG: 09:24 Do you remember what the tuition was? JS: 09:28 Yes, $162.50 per semester. Is that exact enough? IG: 09:33 Unbelievable. JS: 09:35 Yes. IG: 09:36 So what-what were your first impressions of as-as a city kid coming to a pretty rural environment. JS: 09:46 Yeah, that is interesting. I often, you know, I talk about the multicultural experience, and it is very-very specific for- to me, um in the sense that I felt like--okay, I am upstate, and I was, I was like, I was a smart lucky city kid, you know. I mean, I do not know if I did not really have an attitude, but I definitely, you know, there was something about, you know, I was sophisticated. I knew it all. And who are these other- who are these Hicks? You know that-that are, that are there. That is embarrassing to talk about, but it is true. That is, that is, that is how I felt. And the other part of it was I felt like I had entered another culture. I was not- they did not know what a bagel was. I would ask for a soda. They would say "What?"--they would call it pop; I believe. And I would say, and then there were a few of those things that were common parts of my language or my- you know, and that they did not know what I was talking about, and I did not know what they were talking about. IG: 11:05 So is it just cultural references or actual words that were different? JS: 11:10 A few words were different. I mean, there were things, you know, some like menu items at certain restaurants. I mean, speedies are very big. They are very big in Binghamton, these sort of lamb on a spit that you could go into a bar and get, you know, and they give you a piece of bread, and you would- IG: 11:30 A kebab. JS: 11:31 Yeah, but it was called a speedy, and there would be a so- that was different. But I think, you know, sort of the biggest shock was people spoke with a different language, different accent, and we called it the flat and-and I was like, so-so some of my friends, some-some of the guys on my floor and my freshman year, they would say, "Hi, Jan" and-and I would say, I would say "Hi," and it is a, wow, I do not understand. I am only 190 miles away from New York City, and the people talk different. So it was really, you know, so that was, that was, you know, the beginning of my multicultural experience. You know, there, there were, there were kids from farms. There were kids from upstate cities and towns, very smart, but I- my first reaction was, oh, they-they do not know anything. They are dummies. They talk funny. I mean, this is, you know, so part of my educational process was, over my years, there was to get to know a lot of these guys, these folks, and find out that, you know, that was all nonsense and-and there was some incredibly smart, you know, wonderful people, you know, who I looked at like- I mean, I did not spend, you know, as a kid, I did not spend a lot of time out outside of New York, New York City, other than traveling with my parents and, you know, to Canada, maybe, and New England. Anyway, I knew people in Maine spoke differently, because we spent a lot of time in Maine when I was a kid, but- IG: 13:17 During the summer? JS: 13:19 During the summer, yeah. So I do not know if that is the kind of thing you are, you are interested in, but that was sort of that with but I refer to that as-as you know, my multicultural experience in college, I mean, most of the students, I mean, I could maybe remember two or three African American students. There was one student from Africa while I was there. There, I do not remember- there may have been students from other countries aside from that, but I- not from, you know, do not come to mind. So anyway, that was, you know, I tell people about that sort of, you know, it felt very much when I thought about it, because you, when you when you hear people from Ohio or Western New York talk. That is they have the flat. I said, Oh yeah, I know that. That is, you know, so we would, we would laugh about that kind of thing and, but just in terms of, there was that clear, you know, upstate versus downstate sort of cultural thing going on, and it was, it was pretty good natured, I would say, for the most part. And you know, they would laugh at us, we would laugh at them. And, you know, and- IG: 14:30 So, how would they laugh at you? JS: 14:32 Well, I do not know, you know, it was very subtle, but, you know, it was, it was, it was, you know, it was not that it was like [crosstalk] that, well, no, it was more like, you know, some, you know, these guys are, you know, wise asses and no, know it all and, you know. But I mean, it was not that. It was definitely more our side, the downstate, Westchester, New York City, Long Island attitude towards, you know, it so, it was our own provincialism that was much more dramatic. I think you would not hear it as much expressed, at least in my- in our presence, you know. So, that was a dynamic. IG: 15:22 What was residential life like? How I mean after-after classes? How would you spend your time in the dormitories? And did you mix with these students from upstate New York? JS: 15:41 Not, you know, not socially, initially. I mean, there, let me put it this way, the in on the floor, in the dorm, we- there was, you know, there was a sense of belonging to the floor. There was an identity on the floor. One of the things that I think made it more dramatic was the fact that there was a shortage of dorm space, so people were tripled in rooms, and so there was, you know, there was a lot of congestion, but it also forced people to interact. You know, here is an example. One of the people I roomed with was a friend of mine from Stuyvesant, and there was a fellow from upstate in our room, and I liked him a lot more than as it turned out, living with my-my friend who I decided to live with, I- he drove me crazy, and I had and I had to get out of the room and for the next semester. So, you know, that was definitely something but, but we tended to do things, certain things, together as a floor, we would go to basketball games together. The team was especially good that year, and we were very excited. We go to the home game. Sometimes we went into road games, and so there was, there was interaction on the floor. We would visit in each other's rooms and laugh, and the RA would hold floor meetings, and there was a lot of kidding around. And so you know that it did happen in that context. But seemingly, when we went outside of the dorm in terms of who we would spend time with, it tended to be people that we, you know, came from the New York area, at least initially, in the first and when I joined one of the social clubs in my sophomore year. And we had primarily downstate people, but there were a few upstate people, and you know, so there was [crosstalk] IG: 17:48 So, tell us about the clubs, the social clubs. What were like- which do you- did you belong to? JS: 17:54 It was Caledonian Society, and I was very attracted to that group of young fellows, and couple of them, one of the things that appealed to me is that they had very couple of very creative people and very funny people, and it was just a lot of fun being with them. And it was really an enjoyable part of my experience there. You know, it is interesting the- you know, I never quite understood the strict guidelines that they had about there. You could not have a house, hazing practices were severely, you know, restricted. There was some hazing, but there was no physical hazing. Um, and uh- IG: 18:44 So what kind of when you talk about hazing? JS: 18:48 Well, you know, you they would send you on, you know, trips. They-they would grill you. Sometimes they would make you do, you know, errands, you know, I mean silly things. I think the toughest thing was just find the final night was they, a panel of them grill you and start to accuse you of doing all kinds of things. And, you know- IG: 19:20 Was it meant to be taken with a grain of salt? Was it meant to be humorous or...? JS: 19:26 Um, well, I, you know, what I think is they-they had already decided to take me in. So it was that, was that decision is made, but now they just wanted to make me think that they were going to reject me. So it was, it was a little manipulative, but that is as bad as it got. I unfortunately took it very seriously. I thought they would try to kick me out, and I kind of lost it, but so they, you know, they, but so I finally figured I was a little paranoid. So. IG: 20:00 As-as many city kids are, yeah. JS: 20:02 So anyway. IG: 20:03 So what- I am just curious, what kind of things did the social club engage in? JS: 20:09 Well, they- we had- we participated in intramurals. There was softball. That was flag football. We had; we-we did- had parties off campus parties. It was a social thing. And, you know, dances just with the club, but most of it was just spending time together. And you know the sense of identity you had if you went to a beer blast, which was some of what they called the big events, social events. IG: 20:48 Downtown? JS: 20:49 Downtown, off campus, you had a mug that was everybody in a social club had a mug with their name on it and the seal of the social club. And that was a thing about you went to, you know, with the beer mug, and you would spend time with them at the beer blast, and where you would spend time their rooms in the dorm and but it was primarily parties, and it was intramural athletics. I do not remember too much else. Sometimes we saw each other in New York when we came home, but that was rare. So. IG: 21:29 So-so what- let us see. So, what were- was your experience of academics like at Harpur? What do you remember of that? Do you have memories of faculty? JS: 21:42 Oh, absolutely. IG: 21:42 Who made a particularly strong impression on you? JS: 21:46 Yes, um, I took one of my favorite courses was what they called Soc Sci, which was Social Science 101, and the instructor was Philip Piaker, P, I, A, K, E, R. He was in the accounting department. Now, I thought this was very interesting. The accounting was part of the social science department at that time. It was a real eye opener for me. He was a wonderful instructor. It was a core course, and one of the things that I think that they did very well is all new students had to take this class. So everybody shared the experience, and just in English. So in everyone, everyone, and there was no remedial English, you know, everybody took English 101, and sometimes they have lectures in the auditorium, whatever it was called at that time. IG: 22:47 Where was the auditorium? JS: 22:48 It was on the old administration building, which, when you come up the center drive is like a loop. And was on the right, that was the administration building and admin classroom. It was called Classroom Administration Building because the administration was in there and there were classrooms and there was the lecture or the big lecture hall, which was 600 seats, which served as a theater concert hall, was a multi-purpose facility. And so everybody who was taking English 101, which pretty much the whole freshman class would-would pile in there and-and some one of the designated professors would speak, depending on who it was, it became a source of entertainment and maybe a chance to fool around a little bit, whether we were somewhat contemptuous of the way the person spoke or what they were saying. It was a little just slightly disrespectful, not in a very, you know, kind of overt or acting out way. But like with people that, you know, we would like make remarks to each other side by side. Um, one of the things is, you know, I think that somehow it is hard to describe, but the people who went to Harpur and the group that I spent time with, there was a certain sense, a banter, a sense of humor that we share. And when we get together, we-we still, you know, that very much resonates. And one of the things that you know, one of the- my overall impressions there was, there was not a lot of stimulation. It was, you know, Binghamton itself was not- IG: 24:49 You mean, outside of the classroom? JS: 24:50 Well, outside the classroom, yeah, I mean, you know, there was the snack bar, that was the big social area and there, and there was not a lot of- was not a lot to do. There was, there were, there were programs, but it was pretty stark. IG: 25:07 What kind of programs? JS: 25:09 Well, cultural events, cultural events. And I got involved in that. I was on this convocations committee, sponsoring some of that, with some of the leaders there, but it was a pretty- I call it somewhat of an austere existence, in a way. And I mean, I had a car starting my sophomore year, but there was not really too many, there were not too many places to go for just a change of scene. So it became, you would go to the class, you would go to the library, there would be the snack bar, and then you go back to your dorm. And so it was a sort of repetitiveness about it that was a little, I do not know, kind of psychologically, I think draining in a way. And I cannot think of the right word for it. It was interesting that many years after I graduated, I saw this article about the fact that the southern tier of New York has the most overcast days of any place in the country. And I said to myself, that is why I was so depressed for so often. [laughs] So, you know, there were times, but I think it was more that there was sometimes the existence was a little mundane, and compared to, you know, sort of my expectation of a kind of a rah, rah college life type of experience. Athletics-athletics were de-emphasized, And, you know, so that was, you know, in this so there were, you know, limits on certain social events, like, you know, the fraternities. Not that would have been great to have, you know, physical hazing, but you know the fact that there were limits. I mean, there was a clear message, you were, you were here to do you know you were here to be a student and that, and that is your job. You know which-which is fine. I am just saying that. You know, sometimes I think I was something- I was a little bit surprised. I was I felt academically overwhelmed when I came there. IG: 27:43 So what courses were you taking? JS: 27:45 Well, I started, I think I had a theater class my first semester, English, Social Science, trying to think what the others were. Oh, yeah. Oh, I had, I had, oh, this, this is interesting. I was thinking, originally, thinking of majoring in psychology. So I was, I said, well, psychology is in the science department. I do not understand. I had never heard of behavioral psychology. Well, that is what it was. It was behavioral psychology. And I said, well, when do you learn about people, as opposed to having a white rat to run through a skinner box, you know? So that was a little bit, you know, and I was a little bit disappointed in that, in that regard, and I ended up being a political science major, so I was a little bit unprepared for that. I was, I think I was, I was a little bit disappointed. But by the same token, I was very taken by the-the academic rigor and intellectual sort of standing that was and the quality of what was being taught, and the challenge involved in-in-in learning and learning new things. IG: 29:04 Any classes or professors that stand out? JS: 29:08 Well, you know, actually, I actually thought that the psychology was very interesting for what it was. It was not my, you know. And I liked the, I liked the professor who was funny, Professor Deane, I think, was the primary instructor for the psychology class. So you would have two lectures a week, I think, and then you have a three-hour lab with a white rat. And I was bitten by the rat once because I was carrying the box and my thumb was sticking through it. But, you know, I survived that, obviously. And so the- I mentioned Professor Piaker, the social science and Professor Deane for psychology, I do not maybe Professor Santangelo was my English 101, instructor. I think that is it, you know, I think that is who it was, and I do not and the theater class, oh, yeah, I do not remember his name. I think it was theater that I because I had to write a play. IG: 30:14 Really? JS: 30:16 Yeah. IG: 30:16 Did you enjoy that? JS: 30:18 Writing a play? No, [laughs] it was totally beyond me. Um the yeah-yeah, so, I mean, there was some, there was some great, there were some great teachers. You know, definitely great teachers. Okay, so let us see- IG: 30:36 Do you feel that you got a well-rounded education from Harpur? JS: 30:42 Absolutely. IG: 30:42 Yes. JS: 30:43 Absolutely. IG: 30:44 Yeah. JS: 30:46 I, you know, I once counted the number of term papers that I wrote while I was there, and it was 52 and I-I-I had a problem. I mean, I am a good writer. I am, you know, in terms of that respect, you know, writing papers and letters and putting words together, but I took a long time to do things, and I, you know, tended to, you know, drag it out and hand in things late, but I did learn how to do research. I learned, you know, what scholarship is I, you know, I spent a lot of time in the library and, you know, going through sources. And I feel like, I mean, I have a PhD, but I feel like the fundamentals of academic rigor and how I approached learning and research were-were definitely found- IG: 31:56 S IG: 31:56 Scholarly research? JS: 31:57 Yes, one of the things that one big message that always came through was the notion of the scientific method in in social science research, and the difference between facts and values and facts and value judgments, something that does not seem to matter much these days, but, you know, I always, you know, kept that in mind, and it was one of the clear things that I took away from the place. You know, I just want to mention that I used to say to myself, you know, I have been in class. It was- I would get back there for a semester, you know, it has been, I would say some one week into classes, but I am three weeks behind. I say to myself, how did that happen? In terms of the assignments? That is what it felt like. It was very-very demanding. It was several years later, after I graduated, I said, you know, they worked our asses off there. I said, what, you know? What was going on? What was going on? Well, I found out that the educational model was from the University of Chicago, and they decided they were going to export that model and-and bring it to Harpur. And, you know, they basically, I felt like we were going to throw a lot of work at these people. And let us you know, let us see what happens. Whoever makes it, makes it, and if you do not, you flunk out. And one of my criticisms that I do not think, at least from my perspective, I was not prepared to, in order, in order to be like an A student, I would have had to bury myself in the library. And some of my friends did, and they got and they but, you know, they were comfortable doing it. I was, I could. I had trouble dealing with the demand and the demand of the work there, and it was very- it was frustrating me, and I was a good student in high school to the get there, and suddenly, from being an A student to being a C plus B minus student, I was, like, shocked. I did not understand how did this happen. How did I get stupid? And so [crosstalk] IG: 34:34 -is such an excellent school. JS: 34:35 Yeah-yeah, of course. So that was, that was a bit of, that was a bit of a shock to me and but I was critical of, you know, at-at the of the amount of work. And, you know, in some ways I was, you know, I was, I think I was unprepared for the level of knowledge that I thought that they expected of us. I mean, like, for example, I remembered a philosophy course, I do not, I do not want to sound negative, I am telling you, you know, for me, it is a primarily a good experience, but there were negatives to it. You know, do not like to be critical, but the philosophy course was pretty abstract. The instructor was pretty well-known person. He threw using an extensive amount of Latin terms as part of his explanation, a priori, a posteriori, you know, ipso facto. And, my god, am I supposed to know what all of this is? And how do I, you know, how do I find out? How do I- okay, well, there was no internet yet. I was, fortunately, after, you know, a little while, I went to the bookstore, you know, if I said I got to figure something out, and I was able to get this book called The Dictionary of Foreign Terms, and it saved my life. But it was that, it was that kind of thing. I said, "Wow, I do not know what he is talking about," how and there is no primer here, what you know, it was, you know? So I think that there was, there were great teachers, but maybe not so much paying attention to what was happening with the students and their-their ability to- IG: 36:38 Comprehend? JS: 36:38 -yeah, to comprehend and absorb. You know, what was taking place. IG: 36:42 What just explained to us, what is the, what was the University of Chicago model that you followed? Is it a great books core, liberal arts core? JS: 36:51 It is probably liberal arts, but I think it was the core curriculum was a big part of it. And I, you know, I mean, I, my sense is, first of, you know, the caricature of University of Chicago is one of extreme academic rigor and not much else going on there. I mean, it is a beautiful campus, but that this, you know, the students do not have a lot of fun. [laughs] That is, that is, that is, you know. So it was like it was the amount of material. And so, you know, we are going to throw this at you, and you know, and you know, if you make it, that is good, and if you do not, you flunk out, you know, too bad. So you know that there so in terms of support for people who might have been having difficulty, there was a little, I do not think there was much concern about that. Anyway. IG: 37:41 This was a time when social mores were beginning to change. How did you and your friends respond to the pressures of your day, of the day? JS: 38:05 Well, you know, I was thinking about that because I had a feeling that question might come up. Uh, there used to, you know, we were right on the cusp of some of that change. The girls had curfew, to be back in the dorm by 10:30 at night. It seemed bizarre to me, you know, you would be sitting in the snack bar and they would be running out to go back to the dorm on Saturday nights. I think it was maybe one o'clock, I do not know. So that was, you know, and they had, they had a couple of very mature women who were- IG: 38:48 RAs? JS: 38:49 No, they were like the residence hall directors, but they were, they were like, they were not young, trained people. They were more like, you know, matrons. And there was a Mom Hardy and the Mom something they called the mom Hardy, you know, it was 1961 and one of them, you know, was, like, very stern, and, you know, sternly she was projecting, protecting their virginity of the student of the women there. And, you know, they- so we had a, you know, this kind of an attitude about them, you know, that is just, this is so silly, but, you know, so I think we came in with, like, I do not, I do not get this kind of level of- it just, it seemed archaic, okay, but in terms of our own experience, there were regulations about dress. So, you know, you were not allowed to wear shorts to go to the, to go to the resident, to go to the, you know, the dining room. IG: 40:01 And classes probably/ JS: 40:02 Well, not, you know, people did not talk about that, but, you know, a bunch of us would get together and say, "What is this nonsense?" In fact, I think there were. I think you-you also, I am not certain about this, but let us stick with the shorts, because that is a part of it. And so bunch of us started talking, said, "We do not like this. This is ridiculous. Why cannot we wear shorts?" So we had, like, a protest, and we decided we were going to we- and these women were in charge of monitoring, you know, the entrance to the dining hall. And one day, like a couple of 100 people just show up in shorts, and let us say, let us, let us see what they do, you know. And they ended, they just caved at that point, because it was like, you know. So, you know, it was like, it was like, the first time that I actually participated in some kind of social action, you know. And although with an unlimited scale. IG: 41:01 How did it feel? JS: 41:03 Oh, this was great. I mean, I, you know, there was a little bit of risk, I mean, to it, you know, but we did not know what was going to happen, if, you know, they made a stand and but it was kind of like the tide had had turned. And then, you know, when you think about, I mean, what are they going to make an issue? How big of an issue are they going to make about, you know, men wearing shorts, you know, so that, that you know, that was done at that point. Um- IG: 41:40 What other activism, if any, were you engaged in on campus? JS: 41:45 Well, one-one was a bit risky. There was, there were stories about the campus physician being having alcohol in his breath when he saw students, and at the time, I was on the student government I think maybe I was a sophomore. I had run for student government representative, and I was, I was either designated or volunteered, or both, to investigate this, and started talking to people, interviewing people, students, and there would, you know, there were, there were reports of multiple, you know, incidents of this. And I was called in. I guess word got out. I was called in by the Dean of Students and confronted about this and threatened. And I do not remember what he threatened me with, but I think he tried to scare me about, you know, that I was messing with was something that was quite dangerous, and somebody's reputation, yada-yada, you know, I do not remember the details of it, and I, you know, I backed off. I figured, you know, I-I am out here pretty much, you know, on my own in a kind of, you know, dangerous, you know, neighborhood. And, you know, I was a little bit concerned I want, because I wanted to be an RA, and I was a little bit concerned also about, what is this going to do to my reputation, if I am going to be perceived as a troublemaker? So I backed off. So that was an individual thing. The other thing that was going on so 1964 fast forward to the Berkeley Free Speech Movement. And so in terms of my own involvement, we had a sympathy demonstration on the quad. We held up signs supporting the members of the Free Speech Movement, and we stayed out there for an hour or something. I was sponsored by our own student government, so that was participating, you know, in that kind of thing, there was a lot of more serious activism on the campus that I was less familiar with, some of the there was an attempt to sign up students to do voter registration in the south. And in fact, they may have even been efforts to get people to participate in the Freedom Rides. And that was an area that I was just too anxious to, you know, felt like was extremely dangerous and would was not comfortable doing that. And there were some people who activists and doing things, and I think more locally, and Binghamton volunteer involvement and, and, you know, but I was not my, my primary act activity. He was in student government trying to make the student life better for the people- IG: 45:06 On a local- JS: 45:07 Yeah, on the campus, IG: 45:09 Do you remember JFK's assassination? JS: 45:11 Oh, my God, yes. I can see it in my mind coming out of class, and people are gathered around portable radios and listening, and, you know, President has been shot, and I was like, "Oh my God. “And, you know, within half an hour, you know, it was over from the time, what am I- overtime. And one of them, you know, life changing, devastating time I was, I remember that I remember getting the Sunday New York Times afterward, and reading it in-in my dorm room, and just being totally, you know, such a state of shock and grief about-about the whole thing, you know, because at the time, you know, he was, we very much identified with the youth and energy of this, of this guy, and, you know, refreshing note that he-he brought. And so that was a pretty, pretty horrible moment. And, you know, not being thrilled with who the new president was, and so without really knowing much about him, but just the way he contrasts with the way he presented himself. And I could not, could not relate to his way of-of communicating. IG: 46:41 What about the Vietnam War? Was there already fear of being drafted and or was that really- JS: 46:52 Um, okay. You know, the dates and when things occurred, you know, I know it was August of (19)64 that the Tonkin Gulf incident occurred. I do not know if you know my- I understood that that was a very dangerous situation, but it did not come home to me in terms of what this meant, or possibly could mean. There was a new professor in the Political Science Department who had the word was out. He was sort of more conservative, and maybe had been in the CIA or had some kind of background, and that do not remember his name, he was pretty new, you know, he was presented, you know, or so. The word was, it was that he was maybe more conservative than the rest of the faculty, and he made a projection at that point, he- I remember this specifically by such and such a date, a year from now, they are going to be 100,000 US troops. In two years, they are going to be 200,000 and he just sort of like, and I remember sitting there with a bunch, and this was part of his talk about, I think it was about Vietnam, but it may have been more the national defense posture. But I remember, you know, turning to other people say, you know, he is it really, "It cannot be true, right? It is not. He is just, there is just no way that that is going to happen, right?" And sure enough, it all happened. But I remember that was my first sort of like wake-up call, that this something could happen. And then, you know, I think in (19)65 people started to be drafted, and more and more people, and I, I was very nervous about keeping my student deferment. And so I went, you know, I mean, I decided at that point I am going to go to if I can go to graduate school. Let me go to graduate school, because I did not like what was, what was happening. IG: 49:13 So, where did you go to graduate school? JS: 49:16 I went to SUNY Albany for my master's in student services. IG: 49:20 Yeah JS: 49:20 And it was there for a year. And then, you know, when I finished in September of (19)66 I got the position immediately at Nassau. IG: 49:28 And when did you do your PhD? JS: 49:35 I got my- earned my PhD in 1986 from St John's University in counselor education. IG: 49:41 Oh, it is interesting. What other political events impacted you? JS: 49:51 While I was a student, or...? IG: 49:56 You were a student while you were a student, the Bay of Pigs, the failed invasion of Cuba, um- JS: 50:04 What was date of the Bay of Pigs? Was what (19)62? You know- IG: 50:13 Was there fear of Soviet Russia? JS: 50:18 Well, you know the, um- okay, we are maybe talking about the Cuban, Miss Cuban Missile Crisis. You know, that is interesting. Now, in that situation, we knew some bad things were going on, but we, you know now, if you can imagine this situation at that particular time, there was one television on the whole campus. I mean, one television in the student center, in a room that could seat maybe 40-50, people tops standing room would be 60, which is, by the way, as an aside, was the first time we had ever seen the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan Show. It was packed like sardine cans, and it was hysterical. It was like, but you know, it, I felt like the Cuban Missile Crisis was a little bit more remote. I remember being very involved in my studies, and I did not really, I was not really familiar with, sort of the day to day, you know, significance of what was going on. And it was, there were, you know, there were, you know, you heard about things, you know, maybe you saw things, but it was not something that was being talked about, you know, as in the sense that, you know, we were all, you know, there could be a nuclear war, and we could all be gone. I mean, I mean, I mean, I, we grew up with that. It was just another-another one of those episodes this, I mean, more serious, but I was, it did not feel that different from some of the other, you know, the duck and cover drills and, you know, I mean, Kennedy, you know, ran for president on the idea of the missile gap, you know that, and the Russians and their-their missiles, and so I am glad I did not know, you know, my subsequent reading, and you know about it like it was- we were pretty close to a disaster. So anyway, so that so that was, I was not as affected by that, but I would say during my senior year when, you know, I think the Vietnam thing started to become a little bit more dicey. I was very anxious about what was going to happen. And, you know, because my because my own life, in terms of direction, was pretty unclear at that point, I did not have a clear career choice, and it was like, "Oh, my God," you know. IG: 53:15 Did you feel, did you feel support from your fellow students, because they were experiencing the same anxieties? JS: 53:28 You know, we did not talk about it much. I think I do not, I do not recall that it was, in some ways, it was not a reality. You know, we were focused on graduating, finishing, getting out of there and applying to graduate school. That was, you know, a lot of, what are you going to do next? And also, you know, the-the sense of, of, oh my god, this, you know, this experience, this pivotal experience in my life, is going to be over. So there was, there was also some loss that was there. And, you know, my all, I mean, these people who your friends and you, you know, you were very close to your they we re not going to be in your life as much as they were. And I mean, that kind of change was also very- it was, it was scary. It was, it was, it was upsetting. IG: 54:27 Did you stay in touch with any of your classmates? JS: 54:31 Absolutely. It is about half a dozen people from Harpur that I see on a regular basis, and we are very close, and- IG: 54:49 That is very nice. JS: 54:50 Yeah, oh no. It is, you know, it is something that we share and-and then some of them have networks with other friends of people. I know I do not see them that often, but I you know, I ask about them and what this- IG: 55:06 What lessons did you learn from this time in your life? Do you think? JS: 55:14 Well, I have a tremendous respect for knowledge and learning in the truth and um, I, the fact that I learned how to-to write and communicate both verbally and verbally and in writing, and I take a lot of pride in being able to do that. And there is one other thing, so just ask me the question again, IG: 55:57 So what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? What were the major [inaudible] JS: 56:00 Okay, so, well, I would say, among other things, if you, you know, you-you really, if you really want to know what is going on, you have to work very hard to find out. You-you know, truth is a hard thing to get at, and it takes a lot of work to find out what the truth is. You know, I am a history lover, so I spend a lot of time trying to do that, and so I enjoy that a lot. Um- IG: 56:50 Have you pursued your interest in history over the- JS: 56:53 Absolutely, yeah. IG: 56:54 Through reading? JS: 56:55 For reading, from reading. I am in a Lifelong Learning Program now, and you know, I have done some work on some history presentations for them. This [crosstalk] IG: 57:05 Lifelong Learning Program through- JS: 57:08 Actually, it is City College called Quest program, once for adult-adult- IG: 57:13 Wonderful. JS: 57:14 And the other thing I did not mention there, I did a lot of theater there at Harpur, and it was one of the things I really loved doing. And after, and I did some community theater after I left on Long Island. IG: 57:31 As an actor, not as a play writer? JS: 57:32 As an actor. Oh, yeah, not as a play writer. No, I am not a creative writing is not my thing, but-but I would say, and, but now this, this being at this Lifelong Learning thing, has allowed me to get back into it. Because they do, they do Theatrical presentations. They do, you know, we do readings and, you know, there is a show every year, and- IG: 57:55 Sounds wonderful. JS: 57:56 Yeah. So that is, you know, it has allowed me to re-experience some of the joy that was, some of some of the most joyful moments. Our senior, the senior show at in 1965 was Guys and Dolls and sometimes and people still call me by my- the member of the cast- IG: 58:19 You playing? JS: 58:20 Julie. [laughter] So they still say, you know, "There is Big Julie" I mean, it is funny, but that was, you know, that was a, I was a key moment. And I almost did not graduate because I was so busy, you know, with the show, that I-I would still remember that my political science teacher, I got a D in that it was the only D I ever got. He says, "This is a gift." And I said, "Thank you very much, because my parents are coming to graduation," you know. But so, you know, I know. I sometimes tell people that, in many respects, what I majored in college life, but that is sort of what I did. You know, with my in my career, I did, I did love the college experience. It was, it was, there was a lot of vitality in it. And that is what I-I gravitated to, and I ended up spending, you know, my whole life working with college students. And you know that part of the- you know, the educational experience and wanting to make it as dynamic and interesting and challenging as possible. Um- IG: 59:40 What words of advice would you like to leave for maybe students now and for future generations of students listening to these tapes? JS: 59:51 So we are talking about Binghamton students. Are we talking about students? IG: 59:55 Binghamton students? But it could be more general. Third speaker 59:58 Or whoever is going to listen this interview? JS: 1:00:03 Yes, okay, well, oh, my god, daunting. Let me think for a second. Well, I really, I believe in the notion of academic challenge and that it is, you know, even though I cannot say that, I did not practice this, but I- you know, looking for the easy way out is never the good idea is never a good idea. Take something. Take a class that you do not know that much about. Challenge yourself. You know, it is, it can change you. It can make you a better person. Do not just, do not just do things that you are comfortable with, because you are going to lose a lot. You are going to regret a lot, and that is what I mean I used to when I work with students. I would always- we, you know, one of the courses that was offered at Nassau Community College was a speech class, and we did not have a public speaking. We did not have a public speaking at Harpur. But I always say, this is, this is a very important skill. And, you know, it is, it will really help you in your life. And lot of people would be anxious about it, but I just wanted to plant the seed that this is a, this is a good idea. So I think another thing I would attach to that is, you know, the importance of me being able to communicate, both verbally and in writing, but also to-to push yourself into academic areas that you might not be that comfortable with. I mean, you do not want to take it on, to have it be so difficult that it is going to be overwhelming. Where you are, you are going to be so anxious that you cannot function. But how important it is to challenge yourself academically and intellectually. I guess [crosstalk] IG: 1:02:28 You have done that throughout your life? JS: 1:02:32 For the most part. [laughs] I mean, I have not say, you know, I mean, I have not taken, you know, foreign-foreign languages, where I have thought about it, but I guess I just have not been that motivated in that. But I think, you know, I-I-I try to, I try to learn new things if I can, you know, I mean, if I am interested in and just to-to expand my knowledge, and I just find it, it is, it is very interesting. It is very it I s a good way to live. IG: 1:03:09 Any concluding remarks. JS: 1:03:12 Well, I do not know. Concluding remarks, well, you know, I am a little bit out of touch with what it is like to be a student now at Binghamton. I have not been there in about 20 years. I know it is very different. I mean, when we, when I started my there were perhaps less than 1200 students. There was a very small school, everybody you know, kind of knew each other. So I am sure it is very different in character now. But you know, I think something that I feel very strongly about is even though I was, and this is interesting, I was not a shining academic student, you know, in terms of performing, you know, well in terms of what grades, but I learned a lot, and I learned how to learn, and it was, it was all worth it. It was, it was, I mean, it was a tremendously academically challenging place. And despite the fact that I had difficulties, so much has stayed with me in terms of my learning, some of the courses I took, some of the doors that were, you know, were open to me, particularly in-in history, which has become a passion of mine. And you know, it just had a tremendous amount of meaning to me, and I hope that other people will feel the same way, you know, as they move through their lives. IG: 1:05:09 Thank you very much. JS: 1:05:13 You are very welcome. IG: 1:05:17 Thank you. It is a good interview. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John (“Jack”) F. Spiegel Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Spiegel, John F. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource John Spiegel, PhD, retired in 2015 after a 49-year-career as a student service professional at Nassau Community College. His experience included work as counselor, supervisor, director of Academic Advisement and ultimately, building the college’s Student Services Center. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-26 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context John Spiegel.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-01-26 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 65:19 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/026a78dfd480db03ef5dfacf38cf11de.mp3 61b61e00dc776830e0c0d9cd3a84ba5a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/88bf9370d60be4733617198dfa9eb086.jpg a826d33b2138197db9fcd8ca4fd43b4b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-01-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ronald Bayer Year of Graduation 1964 Biographical Text Ronald Bayer, PhD, is professor and co-chair for the History & Ethics of Public Health at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University Medical Center. His research focuses on issues of social justice and ethical matters related to AIDS, tuberculosis, illicit drugs and tobacco. He is an elected member of the Institute of Medicine of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, and has been a consultant to the World Health Organization on ethical issues related to public health surveillance, HIV and tuberculosis. He worked closely with Dr. Mathilde Krim, the founder of amfAR. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in public health; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni in AIDS research; Harpur College – Alumni at Columbia University Medical Center; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in public health; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni in AIDS research; Harpur College – Alumni at Columbia University Medical Center; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Ronald Bayer Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 26 January 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Okay, so please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are, right. RB: 00:06 So, I am Ronald Bayer. My birth date is January 16, 1943 just celebrated my 75th and we are at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University in New York City on January 27, 2018. IG: 00:25 Where did you grow up? RB: 00:27 Where? I grew up on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, before it was cool. I grew up on 10th Street and Second Avenue. It was a lower middle-class, working-class neighborhood. My- one of my funniest memories of that period of growing up was that I thought when people got older, they no longer spoke English. They had a different language. They had a different language. As they got older so old, people spoke Yiddish, they spoke Italian, they spoke Greek. They did not speak English. They aged into that language. Because I never met an old person who spoke English. So, it was an immigrant neigh- you know, nation- neighborhood of immigrants, Ukrainians, Italians. My building was an apartment house. My dad, my mother, was a milliner who worked from the- she stayed home for a while after I was born. But does she work in virtually a hat making factory for making women's hats, and then eventually moved over to B. Altman's department store, where she did custom hats for people buying fancy gowns and stuff. And my dad was a civil servant. Neither of them finished high school. My mother was born in Europe and came here when she was six. My father's parents came from Russia, and my grandfather, who's an Orthodox Jew, lived with us. IG: 02:08 Where in Russia did, they come from? RB: 02:12 Oh, I am sure it was like Lithuania someplace over there. IG: 02:16 Russian Empire. RB: 02:17 Yeah, the Russian Empire. And, I mean, the most important thing about that memory for me is that, although my parents never went to high school, my mother had very high cultural aspirations, and she took me to the Metropolitan Opera when I was nine years old. And she, you know, I knew always that I was going to college. I did not even know college I did not even know college was, but I knew I was going to college. I went to Stuyvesant High School, which then was on 15th Street, is now down at the Old-World Trade Center area, where I met lots of other kids whose parents had, I mean, some had parents who went to college, but a lot of the friends were first gens. They think they call them now and-and so [phone rings] when I- this is my wife, hello, and I guess what leads into the focus of our conversation is my last years in high school, the-the demonstrations at Woolworths around the country were taking place, so the sit ins had already begun in the south. And I remember on Saturday mornings going to a Woolworth on Broadway and Eighth Street to picket. I actually I was supposed to be going to synagogue, and I snuck out and went to picket, and I ultimately had to confess, but I did not get much flack for it. So that is my growing up, and I-I knew I was going to wait to college, and my parents did not have lots of money, and some count- and I somehow, I knew I wanted, I did not want, to go to City College or Queens College, and we did not have money for tuition. And so, I guess a counselor of some kind that Stuyvesant said, "Well, this is relatively new school." It had not yet moved to the new campus was just the process of moving, and it is, you know, it will be a campus out of town. It will be very different from being in the city, but, and it turned out that it had become kind of a go to place for people who, like me, who had aspirations but did not want to stay in the city, and did not have the money to go to private university, I think I got a New York State Scholarship, which paid part of my tuition, and then I landed in what is it called. It is not what is the town where the campus is? It is not Binghamton. It is Vest- Vestal. I landed in Vestal in those years. Glenn Bartle was the president, and had a hugely strong, I remember the correct the first two-year curriculum was, you know, they had a kind of a required course called Literature and Composition, which had used reading from the Greeks all the way in the sec- through the second year James Joyce and whatever it was like, built, I think, on the model of the University of Chicago in places where there was a strong core curriculum. And I felt liberated being there, I kind of met people from all different- I mean, most of my friends, actually, in the beginning, were New Yorkers, and that is one of the things that happened about Harpur. At that point, a lot of New Yorkers, first generation college kids came there, and it was the teachers were great, and the classes were small and-and that is where my, you know, stronger political consciousness began to emerge. IG: 06:09 Tell us about that. RB: 06:10 Yeah, well, I actually have a memory, and you probably can go online to find the stories about this. I think it was my second year. There was at that point a committee of the Congress called the house un–American Activities Committee, which was investigating so called subversives. It had its heyday during the McCarthy era, but they really went after left wing people, and if anyone-anyone who believed in civil liberties and civil rights was appalled by how they operated. People before called before the committee. They invoked the Fifth Amendment. They were held in contemporary Congress. And somehow, I do not know how I learned about it, but we learned, I think, that a film about the house un–American Activities Committee called this is thing that I remember operation UAC. And it was a film basically designed to denounce the opponents of the house un–American Activities Committee. And we learned that it was being shown at the American Legion Hall in Binghamton. So, a bunch of us went and they showed it. And as soon as soon as we finish, I got up and challenged it. I had never done anything like that before. I started reeling off all the- kind of lies. And then a few of my other friends jumped up and did the same thing, and it created a tumultuous situation. We were basically told to get out. It made the front page of the Binghamton Third speaker: 07:43 Press & Sun-Bulletins. RB: 07:45 Yeah, right. It was on the front page. IG: 07:47 What year was this? Do you remember? RB: 07:49 It had to be either (19)61 or (196)2. Third speaker: 07:55 When were you in Binghamton, Harpur College? RB: 07:58 Oh, from (19)60 to (19)64. Yeah, I came in the fall of (19)60 so. And I was startled. I mean, I mean, one of the newspapers was more liberal than the others, but it really made it sound like we were wild and-and I actually got called into some dean's office asked why I had done it, and did I think my behavior was appropriate? And I learned afterwards that she said- RB: 08:29 I said it was important to do, you know, they are taking away our constitution. You know, it was linked to my concern about liberal leftish causes, because the only people the committee was going after were, you know, they went after people like Arthur Miller and, you know, writers and whatever. So, I kind of, you know, it, kind of, I got my- IG: 08:29 What did you say? IG: 08:59 Did you know about Arthur Miller? Did you know about these titans of- RB: 09:04 Yes, I did [crosstalk] I did because when I was growing up, my best childhood friend, a guy named Paul Solman, who sometimes you may see on the on the TV hour, on Channel 13. He does business reporting, but he came from very left-wing family. He was my neighbor, and his father was an artist, and he was actually the one to brought me to my first Woolworth demonstration, and he- Arthur Miller's daughter was in his class at the Choate School House [Choate Rosemary Hall], which was a progressive private school. IG: 09:45 Which daughter? RB: 09:47 A daughter of Arthur Miller. IG: 09:51 Because there is one who is married to Daniel Day Lewis. She may have- Yeah. IG: 09:58 SDS? RB: 09:58 I have never met the daughter, no but I spent a lot of time in Paul's apartment with his parents. They were Dodger fans, which is what left wing Jewish people were, and the mother smoked cigarettes and wore jeans. No one wore jeans in the 1950s and I got a lot of political education in their apartment, some of which I accepted, some of which I-I did not. I cannot remember when I cannot remember actually, whether I, whether I was in high school when this happened? Yes, no, this is later in college. I think there was a, let me see- I cannot remember, let me, let me just jump into something else. So, the other thing that was a kind of way in which people- there was already, when we got there in 1960 already a group called some socialist club. RB: 10:01 No SDS came later. This was a, this was a local group of- they were, they were like juniors and seniors when I got there, and it was called the Social of something club, and they were pretty far left, and they had a- an advisor, who is a very famous social democrat named Kurt Shell, who was a professor of economics at Harpur, and he did not always agree with them, but he provided them with- because he believed in freedom of speech and whatever so but all of us, the younger people who had just come up from New York, used to meet every Friday night in a dormitory lounge, I cannot remember what it was called Dingman hall or something, and sang folk songs. And this sang folk songs with guitars. I did not play guitar, but I knew a lot of the songs. And we sang union songs. We sang solidarity forever, Pete Seeger type songs, and so and that was almost a routine on Friday nights to get together and sing these songs. And we brought people in who had never heard of these things before, who came became part of our world. There are- I actually had a few names come up to mind. And whether you will ever find these people. I am not sure even whether sure even whether some of them are even alive anymore. There was a woman named Jane Lagutis who was in my class, who went to Hunter High School. A lot of people who were there were Stuyvesant or Bronx Science or Hunter so Jane Lagutis, who then became a professor someplace, think of English someplace in New York State. My roommate at one point was someone named Dick Sherman, whose father was a labor activist in the--it was called the local 1199 which at that point was mostly a pharmacy union. So, it was a kind of fantastic learning. And since I was going to be in political science, it all seemed to fit together. And there was one other big demonstration that I remember, and that is-- bunch of us on how we kind of found the bandwidth to do this. We-we rented a bus to go to Washington, DC for a demonstration. It was not an anti-war demonstration because the war was a done then it was a demonstration supporting an end to nuclear testing. And I remember, we went down on a bus overnight to Washington, and we got to- we stayed in a church someplace and slept. We brought sleeping bags or something. We slept on the church. And I remember, I cannot remember who it was. The person who greeted us at this church was, he was an African American minister who may have just been stopping by. I do not know. I keep thinking- it cannot be, but I somehow have this vague memory that it was maybe Martin Luther King, but I cannot remember if that is correct. So that was, you know, it was kind of exciting to be part of the beginnings, and the beginnings, really, that they did not- the big- there was no SDS branch at Harpur [inaudible] I am not sure when SDS began. I think it was a little later. It was at University of Michigan, I think. But we, you know, I kind of- it-it was what drove it was the Civil Rights Movement and what was happening in the south. And, you know, there were the-the kind of echo demonstrations that took place places like Woolworth and whatever. But I think some of my colleagues one summer, actually went to, I do not know, Maryland or Virginia. There was a guy who was very active. I was not really close friends with him, but he was actually more active than I-- his name was Martin Liebowitz. I cannot tell you kind of pulling up these names, I have not heard them in years. Again, I do not know whether any of these people are still around. You know, when there were, you know, Binghamton was hardly all left. I mean, there was, there were, I think there was a branch of the young Americans of freedom on campus. There were, I know, I cannot remember any [inaudible]. I know there must have been moments when there was strife between our people, and they used to be. There were never. There were not fraternities at that time at Binghamton. They were called social clubs, and the people in the social clubs tended to be much more conservative. They were like, you know, frat boys. And of course, we all smoke cigarettes in the dormitories and at our, at our, I guess, you know, these, we think, in the (19)60s, of folk songs called hoot nannies. And that was, you know, when people got together at Carnegie Hall or whatever, and there would be a lead singer like Pete Seeger, and but they were not, they were not just songs. They were kind of our political education, and there was a way of developing political commitment. And I never, I never felt the school, in any way tried to thwart us or suppress us. I mean, the event in Binghamton with the House on American Activities Committee, you know, it was bad publicity. I do not know if someone from the administration said we do not necessarily agree with how they behave, but we-we support their right to express themselves in-in tradition of American freedom, I do not think anyone ever said that, but I know why my face was splashed on the front page of the newspaper, and that was it. IG: 18:10 You spoke of these activities giving you your political education. Was this political- did this political education involve any awareness of restrictions on the rights of women, of gays, of people of color? RB: 18:36 Well, certainly people of color. I-I remember, you know, contemporary feminism begins in the late (19)60s. So, it is interesting looking back at the issue of, I do not think, and the-the first decision of the Supreme Court on birth control was 1963 I was already a junior that was Griswold versus Connecticut, where the Supreme Court ruled that women, couples-couples, had a right to have their doctor prescribe birth control devices. And in uh, so it is actually interesting that I do not think the women's issue ever came up in that way. I do remember something about men and women in those days, I was in a small class, and someone who became my kind of girlfriend for a while was in the same class, freshman class, and I was talking, and she said, "Do not you ever shut up?" [laughs] And in a way, I hear echoes of that now when women say, "You know, men were always the first one to take the stage, take to talk, and we have to fight our way onto the stage." Maybe it is not this quite the same, but so I remember this memory of this woman named Judy, and it was sort of, I guess what I was being blabbering, you know, you know I was, I was actually more like my mother than like my father always talking. So, and there was never an issue of gay stuff. I mean that too, all this, I mean this was the-the first major moment in in gay liberation began around the bar in the village. I think it was 1968 as well. And it was only in 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association decided that homosexuality was not a disease actually written about that. IG: 21:04 I know. RB: 21:06 So, I actually- so let me I actually think and so by the time I left, I really found- felt that I had my political wings, you know. And I felt so when I went to the University of Chicago for graduate school, and this is 1964 was the Goldwater election, I already felt that. And then we would get involved in demonstrations against the beginning of the war in Vietnam and draft and whatever I felt like I had already sort of been-this was not my first entry into politics. The other thing that isn't directly related to, you know, activism is that my education in terms of developing an interest in sort of socialist thought began in college. I, you know, I read my first marks. I read, you know, I just- it just seemed, you know, this is what, this is what you did. And I was a political scientist, and I took political theory classes, and I took, you know- IG: 22:31 This is at Binghamton? RB: 22:33 In Binghamton, mm-hmm. So, it all fit together, and that is why I went on to graduate school at the University of Chicago, but I remember feeling that I came to Chicago, which is a very powerful intellectual tradition. I came to Chicago from a place that was pretty unknown in those years, and I had classmates who were from Harvard and Yale and Princeton and, you know, Berkeley, I felt I came there intellectually and academically completely- I never felt, "Oh, I have a lot of catching up to do." And that was a great gift. I mean, you know, for a person who's the first person in his family to go to college, and who-who- Oh! And, I mean, I- how could I miss this? Of course, it was my, you know, my junior year when Kennedy was assassinated. And I remember that. I do not remember any politics around that. I uh- IG: 23:48 How-how so? RB: 23:49 Well, I mean, I-I remember the day I had- actually, there was a bank across from the campus at that point, on Vestal Parkway--was that, what it is called. And I was going to get some money out of the bank and-and nothing had happened yet. And the way back, I- someone was lowering the flag, and I could not understand what it was. And I went to the Student Union, and there, you know, and there is actually a picture of me in the yearbook of that year with a friend in the kind of cafeteria just staring at each other blankly listening to the news. And I remember those- the following days. I remember actually being it was around Thanksgiving time, and I remember being at a someone was- he was already living he had an apartment in town, and we were watching TV, and Oswald was being transferred from one prison to the other. Then Ruby came and shot him. And we watched this thing on TV, was an unbelievable thing to watch, you know, but I do not remember any- I do not actually remember. And I remember watching the funeral and stuff, but I do not remember, you know, what the political, what the political fallout was? I actually the other political, momentous political event that I remember in those years was the confrontation over Russian missiles in Cuba. And I remember really feeling that when I went to sleep that night, would we be would I wake up? It was very scary. I guess Russian ships were moving towards Cuba. America said, "If you cross this line," whatever, and then there was this backing off. And yes, we felt there was a lot of- I know among us, there was a lot of sympathy for Cuba and the Cuban Revolution. Cuban revolution is 1959 I think, or 1960 so I remember, I remember, you know, Cas- you know, those opposed to Castro, who are Cubans all seem to be like fascist reactionaries, I do not know. And the idea that the US government was going to try to overthrow the Cuban government, and they tried to with a- you know, with an invasion, that was a big moment of, I do not know what kind of demonstrations we had, but I know it was a big topic of anger and anxiety among us. IG: 26:50 Were there any Cuban students that you know of at Harpur? RB: 26:53 It was, it was very [crosstalk] It was very white. RB: 26:58 A few Asians. Actually, a woman who went to Hunter High School, actually also who was first generation was there. Her last name was, I think it was Dottie Chin. I do not remember. It is amazing what you can you know, so and I did not- after graduating, most of us sort of dispersed. I did not- I remained friends for a while with one of my roommates who I think lives in the Albany area now--his name was Robert Puzak. I what- one of my roommates died many years ago. He was- actually came from a Republican family. I had never met a Republican, to tell you, he came from a Republican family upstate. He had had polio as a child. He was a brilliant English major. It was funny though he when he took them to go to graduate school, when he took the GRE, he got like 99th percentile in English, and he got like fourth percentile in math, no one had ever seen such a low score. And I, he did fine. He went on to someplace special, you know. So that was it. And I kind of, I, I am sorry I lost touch with those people. But you know- IG: 26:58 Very white. IG: 28:42 How would your classmates remember you from that time? RB: 28:56 I think outspoken. I actually, I, you know, I-I-I-I think enough of-of oral history and the pitfalls of oral history not to kind of make things I feel I something about the-the wonderful wonders of oral history, but also some of the pitfalls of oral history, where people feel kind of impelled to make up a few stories that seem maybe they have not, maybe they did not. I do not want to do that because I think that- I mean, I think it is fair to say that I was a central figure in the, in the politics, I actually sort of interesting. It is a little different. But the- a year, my third year, I was a junior, a cousin of mine came to Harpur, and he was, he was not as political as I, but he- one spring day, who had been a long winter, he called together a bunch of people, and they had the first stepping on the coat celebration. His name was Larry Kressel. He unfortunately died some years ago of cancer, and there are pictures of him and people throwing that coat on the ground and jumping on them. So, it was a different kind that was, in a way, a celebration of life, you know- IG: 31:07 Celebration of spring. RB: 31:08 Yeah, yep. And I thought that was great. And he had, that was the class that had Andy Bergman in it, the filmmaker who might be worth trying to get. I do not know if he is Andy Bergman lives in New York. He was, he was the filmmaker who made Young Frankenstein. He made, oh, he was, at one point, like up, you know, among the- I would not say it, you know, sort of, he sort of seemed like the Woody Allen and his age or something. Third speaker: 31:39 Is it more independent movies? RB: 31:42 No, it was- he was, you know, he worked with Mel Brooks and-and, oh, Mel Brooks was in his movies. And if you look up his in Bergman, B, E, R, G, M, A, N, Andrew, and he might even remember me, because we were moved in the same sort of circles. IG: 32:07 What did the campus look like at the time? RB: 32:10 It was very small. There was where the library building was- it was the library and the faculty offices. It was only two stories high, across from it, sort of an L shaped brick building was the only where all the classes were, and there was the science building. IG: 32:45 Where was the science building in relation? RB: 32:47 it was between the academic building and the library. Everything was very spare. There were no- I think at some point we began to have the idea of planting new trees, because it seemed it was raw looking. I mean, all the buildings were new, and the dormitories were fine, and each dormitory there were four dormitories, then two women, two men. Dingman Hall, cannot remember the names of the other places, and they all had a big lounge. IG: 33:18 Is that where you spent most of your free time- RB: 33:22 No, the-the student, student union, where the cafeteria is- was, and there was a, oh yes, this is no longer there, I am sure. When you came down the central, what was then the central drive, there was a little bridge that separated the- that linked the Student Union and the dormitories, and it was supported by four pillars that were unusual because they-they were, they were normally these things supporting a little bridge. It was called the Esplanade, not there anymore. And so, the normally, you have a pillar that looks like this. You know, narrower top. No, yes, this is normally what you think of. And this had it came down like this. And it was just a design decision. It was not a very beautiful place. But I-I actually, you know, and I remember I had never seen fall leaves before. I mean, there are fall colors in New York, but not like I remember how incredible the hills were around the campus, you know, in the fall, it was just incredibly beautiful. So, you know, I mentioned that I had brought- I saw one of the groups I helped to found is called the International Relations club. Why we called that? I do not know. It was basically a way of talking about the political club. And we invited speakers to come. So, after many-many efforts, I-I contacted Eleanor Roosevelt, and I said, we would love you to come to talk and-and she said, you know, I guess I was in touch with her secretary, who said, Mrs. Roseville, speaking fee is, I do not know what she said, $3,000 $1,200 something like that. It was a long time ago, so that was a lot of money. And I said, unfortunately, we do not have any money we can pay for her airfare to-to Binghamton. And finally, I was persistent enough that she finally said, yes. IG: 35:59 How were you persistent? RB: 36:00 I kept writing, take no for a no, yeah. And I-I just said, you know, I described who we were, the nature of our students, the kind of students at the school. And she thought point, was writing a column, a daily column, for the New York Post from the New York Post was not a rag, and it was called my day. So, we got her, I do not know how we there was another person I remember bringing up who was. I cannot remember anything about her speech, no, but I remember her saying- IG: 36:40 What was her demeanor? RB: 36:42 Oh, she was talking about her years in the founding-founding of the UN that was it. Of course, we gave her corsage. And I actually remember that the person who ran the cafeteria made a special dinner for us, about 12 of us, and the main course was Chicken Kiev, which was, I do not even know chicken- I think it is, it is a breast of chicken wrapped around butter or something. So, the other person, we and I, actually, is it? I have a picture of it someplace. There was a very prominent left-wing journalist, not an apologist for the Soviet Union at all, but quite left, named I. F Stone, and he had a weekly newsletter. I. F. Stones Weekly, and we brought him to campus. So, we, I guess we tried to bring dissident- I mean, I do not know how many we did. I cannot remember, but we wanted to bring somewhat dissident voices to campus, and so those are the- RB: 37:08 Was the president there to meet Eleanor Roosevelt? RB: 37:59 I certainly know the dean was I at the airport, actually, and it was held the- her speech was held in the nicest, actually, I thought the nicest space on the old camp that campus those things was the auditorium. And there was a very beautiful auditorium, it seemed to me. It was wood peddled, sort of a little semicircular. It was in what was then the only academic building. It was out of using the gym, which, you know, sorry, big but ugly. So, I have stone whatever, and that is about it. I think I am trying to- no- so the years I was there was- they were the Kennedy years--right Kennedy and then Johnson becoming president in 1963 or (196)4. Oh, I do, yes. Oh, it did not happen there, but I that was also it was during that period that the-the big civil rights march on Washington took place, and we were actually shifting. Harpur had been on a semester system, and for reasons I never quite understood. They decided to go to a trimester system. So, in that transition year, which was actually the transition between my junior and senior years, there was a longer break, longer summer break, and I got a job, I do not know, some kind of stupid summer job in New York City-- just to make some money, and I remember taking a train down to the March on Washington, and I remember Martin Luther King's speech. I do not recall actually having met my Harpur colleagues while we were down there on the march. So, I do not think I was in touch with them about let us meet up or something. Well, there were no cell phones. The idea of meeting up in a crowd was a little different. So, I actually, I mean, I know this isn't about, you know, celebrating. I mean, I guess oral history sometimes we are about celebrating. But I-I think I was given the academic opportunity of a lifetime, and I sort of grew up. I, you know, started in college when I was, what, 16-17, I was 21 when I was just different. And- IG: 40:53 Do you remember any, any professors who made a particular impression on you? Were they- RB: 41:00 Yeah, well, they are all dead. No, yes. There was actually my Literature and Composition teacher- my first year was someone named. His last name was Huppe, H, U, P, P, E. RB: 41:04 And he was fantastic. He was a Chaucer scholar. I remember that. And I remember learning from him how to recite the first lines of [citing in Middle English]. And I mean, what is this Middle English stuff? So, he was my teacher. And to have a man like that with 15 or 18 students in a room just discussing literature was fantastic, and I had a- there was an economist whose name was Peter Vukasin, who was really a great teacher. It was another teacher I- it is odd that I cannot remember the names of my political science teachers, although that was my field, I remember one of the things, one of the things that was interesting about that period is in every- well, there are only four dormitories. There was an apartment for a faculty member, and the dormitory I lived in, the professor was named- he was an English professor. I never had him as a teacher. His name was Peter Mattheisen [Paul Mattheisen], and it was a thing that the door of the faculty member department was virtually always open in the evening. So, I remember spending a lot of time hanging out down there. I think I do not have anything more to say. So, who are most of the people you are trying to reach out to kind of post me, after me, or...? IG: 41:04 Yes. IG: 43:26 They are graduates from the 1960s. RB: 43:28 Okay. IG: 43:29 So, it is a big range. We started with 1967 because there was a reunion for that year last year. So, we tapped some of those people, and we have conducted about- Third speaker: 43:48 Six, seven, I think. IG: 43:48 -interviews. RB: 43:50 Was that [inaudible] who had organized that reunion from the (19)67? Do you know? IG: 43:57 Of (19)67? RB: 43:58 Yeah, the one you said, the first- IG: 43:59 Well, the Alumni Association, but the Alumni Association, but the library, also had a luncheon for these graduates. Just tell us a little bit about what you do? RB: 44:19 Now? IG: 44:19 Now, and just tell us about some of the high points of your career. RB: 44:27 So, after graduating from Harpur, I actually was lucky enough to get a Woodrow Wilson fellowship, and which supports graduate study, and I went to the University of Chicago for a PhD in political science. It was- those were heavy political days, but I and I was also a pretty devoted student, and um, I um, I-I became very interested in-I mean, I remember being at the University of Chicago and having professors like Hannah Arendt. You know when Hans Morgenthau and Leo Strauss, who's a founding figure of the very conservative intellectual, but I remember studying some Socratic dialog with him in a class where they went over every line and explicated it. And I-I got very involved in politics, actually. And I actually in one, one of the years, I guess, was 1967 there was a demonstration--it was before the Democratic Convention year. But I got was an anti- I guess it was an anti-war demonstration, yes, and in one of the main squares in Chicago, and they were trying to block us, and I was trying to move forward. Anyway, I got arrested, and I was clubbed by a cop, and I had my hand broken, and I was okay, but, you know, but it was not okay. Actually, I was in jail for about eight hours, and my-my school, my chair, the chair of my department, was very supportive, and they provided us with lawyers and but I kind of lost. Then I- my feet- I had committed myself to doing work on African politics, nations that were becoming liberated. And I- that was the moment was happening, Kwame Nkrumah in Ghana and Houphouet-Boigny in Ivory Coast or whatever. And I-I went to Africa. I was- I remember my advisor said, "Ron, if you are not going to do this dissertation, do not go. Do not do it for me. Do not go. Take a breath. Think about it. I said "No-no-no, I am going. I am going, I am going." And I went. And I really was completely- I did some research, but my heart was not in it. There were all these demonstrations back home against the war, and I wanted to do it. I actually organized demonstrations in Accra outside the American Embassy. Finally got invited to dinner by the ambassador, who basically told me to stop. So, my academic career took a kind of a bump, and I came back, and I spent two years trying to write the dissertation on trade unions in Ghana, and I just could not do it. And you know, those are the days of note cards. I had piles of note cards at my desk, and I would keep pushing them forward and pulling them forward at that point just because of [ talking to his colleague] IG: 47:43 1015 minutes more. RB: 48:03 Yeah, let us check I have- it is in. I make- what I may have to do is ask you to stay here, and then I will come- do you have an appointment right after this? IG: 48:10 Not right after, we have an appointment at 1:30 on, I think 88th on Riverside. RB: 48:16 Oh, you are going to be there. I live on 88th on Broadway. [laughs] IG: 48:18 Oh really. Next door neighbors. He is another professor, but I am not quite sure, but he is not affiliated with Columbia. RB: 48:28 Uh-huh. Well, the only one I know who lived here is a guy who taught English at [inaudible] I do not think he went Harpur. IG: 48:35 His name is John Spiegel. RB: 48:37 Oh, I know John Spiegel. IG: 48:38 Really? RB: 48:39 Yes, he was, he was a friend of Larry Kressels and whatever. Of course, you said that, [inaudible]. So, it is a meeting now, James [talking to his colleague]. Okay, so anyway, so anyway, I-I happened to get a job working one of the early methadone maintenance programs in New York. I knew enough my brother was sort of involved with drugs, and he knew a lot of people involved. So, I got involved working. I never wrote it about Africa. Okay, so I got a job working in the- this method on maintenance program, and suddenly I realized, oh, this is really interesting, drug use, psychiatry, law, criminal law, criminalization. And ultimately, the idea came to me about writing a dissertation about that. I studied, none of it in graduate school, and I wrote a very good dissertation. And when I finished, it was- I started graduate school 1964 was 1973 when I finished, but I have been working in this drug program for two years. I got an eventually, got a 1979 I got a post doc at a place called the Hastings Center, which was a bioethics research institute. I had never studied bioethics before, but I was interested in relation with law and psychiatry. That then I feel like Forrest Gump. That then led me to the- I got at this Hasting Center I- when I started working there, someone said, you know, you are really interested in law psychiatry, how values shape psychiatry. I have a great idea for a book, the decision of the American Psychiatric Association to declassify homosexuality as a disease I did not know anything about it. He said, I know all the major players, and I will get you access to them as for interviews. And so, I did it. It was my first book about homosexuality in American psychiatry. And it was sort of, kind of became entailing the history of that moment. It was a landmark. It, you know, built on gay liberation, women's movement, whatever. And then I- while working at the Hastings Center, it was 1983-(19)82 someone came to us who was on the board of trustees and said, there was this new disease. She was a scientist working at Sloan Kettering. This new disease has many ethical issues. The research ethics are incredibly complicated. Her name was Mathilde Krim. Mathilde Krim just died. IG: 51:24 I know, I know, I know who that is. RB: 51:26 And I just, actually, just went to her memorial service. So, Mathilde Krim gave us our first grant to do ethical work on HIV. I then became completely involved in writing about ethical issues, and all my work focused on HIV. [side conversation with colleague regarding meeting time] All my work and I actually got to know Mathilde Krim quite well. I- it is like she was both a formidable activist, a brilliant scientist, and very-very rich. Her husband owned, United Artists, the film company, and then he owned another film company. They had a townhouse on 69th Street between Madison Park. It is like out of movies. He walked into this house, and there was a spiral staircase, and there was a butler who opened the door, and there was a movie theater on the ground floor that is had about 80 because [inaudible] was a business. So, because she supported my work a lot, and then she created a foundation called the American Foundation for AIDS Research that a lot of my work was funded. IG: 51:26 Were you attached to any university at that point? RB: 51:39 No, I was still working at the Hastings Center. This is the final piece of luck. I had been asked to give a talk at the board meeting of Planned Parenthood in Washington, DC in 1986 or (198)7, I cannot remember the year, it was the first talk anyone had presented on the issue of women and HIV. And I knew something about the issues because of issues around pregnancy and the transmission of virus from mother to child. At any rate, in the audience was sitting who was on the Board of Trustees of Planned Parenthood [inaudible] named Alan Rosenfield. Alan Rosenfield was the dean of this school. He came up to me after the talk and said, "Have you ever thought of coming to Columbia?" I said, "Actually, I am interested in the possibility of moving. I have been at the Hastings Center for nine or 10 years. Yes, I am interested." "Well, come see me in my office." In the meantime, uh- and so when I was trying to figure out what to do, I went to see Mathilde Krim, and she and Arthur had dinner for me in their palace, and said her husband was on the board of, he was on the Board of Trustees of Columbia. So, he said, I think you should go to Columbia. So, it did not, it was not just a show over. I mean, I, you know, I had written a lot, but, you know, this depart the department I am in said, what was academic credentials? He does not do traditional work and whatever, but they- I am basically, Rosenfield basically [crosstalk] IG: 54:35 Do- done your PhD by then? RB: 54:37 Oh, yes, I finished my PhD. And I was actually, I had finished my finished my PhD in (19)76 and I worked at the Hastings Center until (19)80 until- I was a person. Oh, I finished. I had a postdoc, which was a year, and I am coming to the end of the year. I had already my book is already in galleries, and the director, a guy named Dan Callahan, says, "What are you doing next year?" I said, "I am not quite sure." He said, "Would you like a staff position here?" So again, look, and I grabbed it, and that opened the whole world of bioethics to me, which led to the research on HIV, which led to, we did the no one had done work on the ethics of infectious disease until that point, because infectious disease was not an issue in the US. Bioethics was all about the clinical relationship. So, I, so then I came to Columbia in 1988 so it is now 30 years. Yeah, 30 years. And I came with the idea of teaching a course, oh, I came with a grant from the American Foundation for AIDS research, a five year, you know, these schools require a lot of grant money, a five-year fellowship to continue work on the ethics of AIDS. So, I came here, and I had to think about what courses I was going to teach. So, I decided I would teach a course on the ethics of on HIV, the age of epidemic. By that time, I had written a book about the AIDS epidemic, and then I developed one of the first courses in the United States on the ethics of public health, not the ethics, but not bioethics, not the ethics of the doctor patient relationship, but how you think about the ethical challenges raised in doing public health policy, whether it is about smoking or diet or-or motorcycle helmets or seat belts or or-or infectious disease or justice [crosstalk] IG: 56:46 So, what are the- you know, just give us a glimpse into what the ethics- RB: 56:52 Well, for example, yeah. I mean, for example- IG: 56:54 Smoking. RB: 56:55 Well, you know, people-people choose to smoke. They choose to smoke for many-many reasons, because they have been pushed into it by business. They have been seduced into it as children. They become addicted. On the other hand, stopping people from smoking because it hurts them is problematical if you believe that competent adults have a right to make all kinds of decisions, including to refuse therapy if even though that means they are going to die. So, the question about smoking was preeminently how far the state can go in-in pushing, nudging, shoving people to lead a healthier life. It is not an accident that most of the original aids efforts control efforts focused on innocent victims, non-smokers, who were in the presence of smokers and children where there is no ethical problem, you have no right to infect the air of smoker a non-smoker. But why do they focus on that when the real issue was 500,000 people dying every year smoking because it touched a raw nerve in America. We have come very far. We go pretty far now. We banned smoking on parks and beaches. We banned smoking in public housing projects. We this is so called a smoke free campus, and some of it, I think, is a stretch in terms of the harm to others part. So, tracing that arc, look, America is the only country that permits- does not regulate smoking advertising because of our First Amendment. From an ethical point of view, there should be no advertising, but our constitution is different, and it is not simply because business controls the story. I mean, the ACLU defends the right of tobacco companies to advertise. IG: 58:46 How interesting. RB: 58:46 And the other story that is paradigmatic is how you get to a position where you say that someone wearing a motorcycle not-not only is advised you, but must wear a motorcycle helmet or be fined. And the way the case was typically and we knew that people did not wear helmets smashed in their heads. They died more frequently. They had severe brain injuries. But when the move to mandate motorcycle helmets started, and there was a federal law that said, if you do not have motorcycle law, you do not get federal funding for Highway Safety. The argument was, if you get caught in an accident, if you are in an accident, then an ambulance has to pick you up, take you to a publicly funded emergency room, and where you may have to stay and then be hospitalized, where you may be have Medicaid, and then you may be crippled and have to be on public assistance. How can you say that it only affects you? So, it was a very stretch of harm to others in terms of economic burden. So those are the kinds of issues I love to teach about, and I have taught these courses for a long time. We revamped the curriculum here about eight years ago so that all incoming 400 students take a common curriculum. It is a [inaudible], and the first among the first six lectures they get, all 400 of them are the ethics of public health that I do. A colleague does the history of public health, someone does human rights and public health, and they do what they learn, Biostatistics and whatever. But I actually feel that one of my great contributions academically is that I sort of helped I am not the only one who does it now at all, but to spark the interest in the ethics of public health, not simply the ethics of clinical research. And that is my concerto. [laughs] IG: 1:00:42 Wonderful. Do you have any- I think that we are going to wrap up soon. RB: 1:00:49 Okay. IG: 1:00:52 So just in general, what do you think that there any lessons that you learned from your time at Harpur. RB: 1:01:01 Um, I- there were two things. I think I have no idea what the socioeconomic mixes of Harpur in this moment, and it was basically a white school when I went there, although, as I said, there were a few Asians, but there were lots of first-generation college students, not all, but enough. Kids who came from New York who would have gone to one of the city colleges, City College Queens, Brooklyn. I think creating a place that is- brings first generation college students as a mission, not just if they happen to apply, but as a mission. It is a great thing to do as a public university, and it is a great thing to do for what you- the kind of context you create. I know it is you know, may sound like, you know, old story now everyone wants, you know, campus that has diversity on it, and sometimes the diversity language seems to be a little kind of hot air stuff. I mean, the talk about diversity, but I actually think creating, making it a mission to draw people who are first generation people, and hopefully being able to bring dreamers in and to protect them. Columbia has been very good in its public statements about dreamers, and I think that so. The other thing is, and I do not know how much it remained, I think the people who created the curriculum at Harpur back then were very influenced by the idea that all incoming students should have some kind of core curriculum. We had. It was either one or two years of a social science sequence and wanted, and at least I know it was two years of literature and composition. It was mostly literature, and you had to do some writing, but it was literature. It was the most I mean; I am not a literature person. The fact that I read everything from Chaucer to Flaubert and James Joyce as part of a standard curriculum that was, it was viewed as, this is what everyone with an education need. I thought that was just spectacular. There is so much emphasis now on specialization, on skills, building Third speaker: 1:03:57 Standardized. RB: 1:03:58 Yeah, and I kind of yeah, so I actually, I understand all the pressures to do that. I see it here because, you know, our students in a school of tuition here at Columbia is about $60,000 a year when you get an MPH, you do not. It is not like getting an MD. And, you know- IG: 1:04:19 [inaudible] MD students get an MPH? RB: 1:04:20 Oh, absolutely, yes-yes-yes, that helps. But when our students get out, the income they can expect is very different from an MD and-and they and they want to make sure they have a job, something skills. So, I teach in a unit that teaches history and ethics in public health. We admit, in our department, we admit 150-130 students a year, [inaudible] of them choose to do this. There are many-many important things they can learn. But and I understand why, because they, when they go to an employer, they want to say, I know how to do this statistical method. I knew that statistical method. I know how to run a clinical- I know how to run a focus. Group and how to do things. So, I understand it, but it is for the same reason that many universities they have- they are getting rid of, you know, their universities get rid of their- I mean, I imagine you could count on hand the number of universities that teach Latin or Greek anymore, and there are even universities that have given up on Roman, you know, Italian, they may have Spanish and French and German and now Chinese, but there are many schools that just do not have comprehensive literature departments anymore. They are not supportable and-and you know from your time at-at Columbia that these places run on grants and gifts. You know, did you hear about this big gift they got from this guy, Vagelos [Dr. Roy Vagelos]? IG: 1:05:46 I heard about it. I also heard about the green gift to the neurosciences. RB: 1:05:54 Yes, right. IG: 1:05:55 [crosstalk] 200 million. RB: 1:05:56 Yeah. IG: 1:05:57 And actually, Dr. Fishback and I worked on the original proposal- RB: 1:06:02 Really? IG: 1:06:03 -Neuroscience Institute. RB: 1:06:04 Yeah, it is, you know, it is down on 100- but no, this guy, Vagelos, was the head of Merck. IG: 1:06:09 Yes. RB: 1:06:09 He gave $250 million to the school so that, no, this is interesting. He also built a building there, which is kind of a very modern building, two $50 million the income of which is to make sure that no student graduates medical school with debt. [crosstalk] IG: 1:06:13 That is tremendous. RB: 1:06:23 You know, he was the head of Merck, so he is very rich. And at any rate, I have felt, you know, as I said, I just celebrated my 75th birthday. You know, I am, I feel really privileged in many ways, but I, you know, I kind of being dogged and being ready to jump at opportunities, and sometimes just being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, IG: 1:07:07 Is that, is that one of the important life lessons? RB: 1:07:11 To me, it is. I cannot say that I would have been here had I, you know, for example, what would have happened had I trudged through and finished my dissertation on African Trade Unions, I would have been, I think, a kind of mediocre academic teaching political science- I could not do it, and I- it, it took a lot to decide I am not going to do that this. I am going to do another one. And I got a lot of you know, people around me were appalled that I was not writing my dissertation. My- I had a friend in the methadone clinic, a nurse, who said, you know, she was in a group therapy. She said, “You know, Ron, there is a guy in my group. He is 45 years old, and he still says he is writing his dissertation.” And people in the group do not know where to look when they hear him say it, because it is clearly not going to happen and he cannot face it. Do not let that happen to you. It is kind of scary when you hear that from people, because you know that you could just slip through the cracks. Third speaker: 1:08:15 I changed my topic. I know the feeling. So, I was doing something. I took all the prep work to do- to write that. When it was time to write it, I could not do it. I went through what you went through, and I wrote something totally different. RB: 1:08:32 Are you Russian, or? Third speaker: 1:08:33 I am Turkish. RB: 1:08:34 Turkish, uh, [speaking Turkish]. Actually, got some dirty words too. I had a Turkish girlfriend once at the University of Chicago. Third speaker: 1:08:47 Oh yeah. RB: 1:08:49 Her name is Ipek. Third speaker: 1:08:51 Yeah, means silk. RB: 1:08:55 Okay, I really have to [inaudible]. Yeah. IG: 1:08:57 Thank you so much. RB: 1:08:58 Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ronald Bayer Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in public health; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni in AIDS research; Harpur College – Alumni at Columbia University Medical Center; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bayer, Ronald ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Ronald Bayer, PhD, is professor and co-chair for the History & Ethics of Public Health at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University Medical Center. His research focuses on issues of social justice and ethical matters related to AIDS, tuberculosis, illicit drugs and tobacco. He is an elected member of the Institute of Medicine of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, and has been a consultant to the World Health Organization on ethical issues related to public health surveillance, HIV and tuberculosis. He worked closely with Dr. Mathilde Krim, the founder of amfAR. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Ronald Bayer.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-01-26 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 70:44 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a20bfab336130e2d75a3d55096806bd2.mp3 cf30ae8b5895e45b5a0213d13473c3d6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8aefb28975d00d4430b87c7dd1f8a7d6.jpg 92a76cb3569cb5b59109f0ede92c6a46 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-13 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ellyn Uram Kaschak Year of Graduation 1965 Biographical Text Dr. Ellyn Kaschak is an award-winning psychologist, author, teacher and human rights activist. She is a professor emerita of psychology at San Jose State University. She teaches in the gender studies program at University for Peace in Costa Rica. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Ellyn Uram Kaschak Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 13 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Up to you. We can either try to get you on Skype, or we can just do this over the phone. EK: 00:09 Okay, either way, or we can go on FaceTime. You guys [inaudible] FaceTime IG: 00:16 Uh, FaceTime? No, I am here with my colleague, Aynur de Rouen, and so say hello. Third speaker 00:28 Hello. How are you? IG: 00:29 Who is the- yeah, she is the project manager for the oral history project. So should I give you a little bit of overview of what the oral history project is, or should we just plunge into the interview? EK: 00:46 Why do not you give me a short review? IG: 00:48 Okay, so the short review is that we-we are creating a virtual center for the study of the (19)60s. It will exist to promote scholarship on this important decade. And- EK: 01:10 Okay. IG: 01:10 -so we have collections of audio recordings, um, different collections. So one collection is a you is a set of 200 of interviews with 275 prominent leaders from the 1960s representing a range of political affiliations. So we have everyone from yippies to, you know, civil rights leaders like John Lewis and Shirley Chisholm, and there are people who were anti-war activists, as well as Vietnam vets who, you know, willingly went to this war. So that is one collection. The other collection is the collect, you know, the project that you are participating in, and that is a set of oral history interviews with alumni of Harpur College from the 1960s and it is to give. So it is to give a look back on what your experience at Harpur was like and how you perceived the events around you so the larger perspective. So these are, you know, these are tapes right now for oral history that will be transcribed, digitized and placed, excerpted, placed online. We have to ask you for your permission to- Third speaker 02:42 -consent form, and I can email to you. You can either sign it and email back to me, or, if you prefer, I can send it via mail with a paid envelope. So it would be maybe easier for you. Do you want me to do that way? To do that. EK: 03:20 Email is easiest for me. Third speaker 03:22 Email is easy. Okay, I will I will email to you, then EK: 03:27 You will never find me if you should not stand there. Third speaker 03:29 Okay, all right, I will send you an email after the interview this afternoon. IG: 03:35 Okay. EK: 03:36 Okay, good. IG: 03:37 Okay, so are we ready to start? EK: 03:41 Yes, okay, I do not know what is wrong with it. IG: 03:46 It is okay. That is okay. EK: 03:48 So keep going this way. I guess. IG: 03:49 Let us, let us go this way. Okay, so Ellyn, tell- first of all, you need to identify yourself and tell us who you are, where you are and what you are doing by participating in this interview. EK: 04:10 Okay, so this is the actual interview. IG: 04:13 Yes, yes. EK: 04:16 Okay, I am Ellyn Kaschak, and I was a student at Harpur from 1961 to 1965 so I hope it does not mess up the tape too much. So I just sent John, and he said he'd welcome over to somebody a bunch of photographs from the 1960s of the dorms and articles, you know, invitations to dances and things like that that is going on. IG: 04:50 Okay. Do you know who you sent this to? EK: 04:54 I sent it to John. IG: 04:55 I see, I see. EK: 04:56 John um- IG: 04:59 Cook-Cook. EK: 05:00 John Cook. IG: 05:01 Yes. EK: 05:03 And he said he walked him over to the library so somebody has them. IG: 05:07 Okay, I will get them from him. EK: 05:09 And there is a whole bunch of, there is a whole bunch of little odd names from dancers. And I do not know if they still have it, but they used to have the vacation, stepping on the coat ceremony in the spring. IG: 05:22 Oh, that is wonderful. Okay, so you please tell us you want, what is your age? Where are you speaking? Where are you physically located right now? And tell us that you are, you know, participating in this oral history interview. EK: 05:42 I am seventy-four years old. I have been a professor at San Jose State for many years. [coughs] IG: 05:55 We will, we will, but we did not catch what you said last you are 74 years old, and EK: 06:05 I, when I graduated from Harpur, [inaudible] is George Washington University, I see where I got a master's degree in clinical psychology- IG: 06:13 I see. EK: 06:13 -from there, they were not hired at Union, and I could not get a job, and they were not taking union into the PhD programs, even though I was a top of my class. And so I was told that I could not get a PhD because it was a waste of money. And you know, when I would just stay home and have babies? So I worked in DC for a couple of years as a school psychologist, and then times started changing, and I went back to school at Ohio State, got a doctorate, and came out to California to do my internship at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Palo Alto, and then I got a job at San Jose State as a clinical psychologist at a community psychologist. And I stayed there for my whole career, until I retired. IG: 07:02 Okay, so where was that at what state at California state? EK: 07:07 San Jose. San Jose. Oh, San Jose State University. IG: 07:12 State University. I know where that is. EK: 07:15 Yeah. That is right in the middle of Silicon Valley stuff. IG: 07:20 Yes-yes-yes. EK: 07:21 It was [inaudible] and I went there. IG: 07:24 Yeah, I could imagine. So just let us backtrack now to your early life and tell us where you grew up. Where are you from? EK: 07:39 I am from Brooklyn. IG: 07:41 Oh, well, where- EK: 07:44 I spent a few years in Valley Stream before I left, but mostly Brooklyn. IG: 07:47 Where in Brooklyn, if you do not mind my asking. EK: 07:53 Coney Island. IG: 07:54 Oh, I know where that is. So, who were your parents? What did they do? EK: 08:04 My parents were first generation Americans, and they were Celia and Bernard Uram, and they just kicked around and did a lot of things and fun. [coughs] Oh, I apologize. Finally, my father, after I was out of the house, when I was in my 20s, opened a successful business. So- IG: 08:35 Excuse me, a what business? EK: 08:37 A successful business. It was called [inaudible] stores, and it sold [inaudible], it was a discount store. IG: 08:43 Okay. And you said that your parents were first generation from where? EK: 08:50 Well, my grandparents came from Eastern Europe, and they came in 1900s to get away from the [inaudible], so way before Hitler and from Russia and the Austro-Hungarian empire. IG: 09:05 Okay, all right, did your parents go to college? EK: 09:11 No, they just barely finished high school. They had no interest in my going to college, or anybody going to college. They did not even know what it was, and I was the one that consisted on an education. So that was the early days of the scholarships before the government shriveled them. So after the New York State using scholarship and I needed to go someplace inexpensive, of good quality inside New York. So that became Harpur. IG: 09:46 Um, so, how did you persuade your parents to let you go to college? EK: 09:52 Well, I did not. I just went. [inaudible] on me. IG: 09:56 Okay, so, um, uh, you know, so- EK: 10:02 I had the scholarship. I paid for everything myself, and I practiced increasingly, I went to college. IG: 10:09 Well that is, that is very bold, very courageous of you. EK: 10:13 I am bold. IG: 10:14 Bold, courageous. So, um, so EK: 10:20 Like- what I wanted. I did not want to like it. You know, sitting in Brooklyn, owning somebody's children. IG: 10:27 I see. So did you have siblings? Do you have siblings? EK: 10:32 Yes, I did. I have two younger siblings. My sister is three years younger. She eventually went to Stony Brook, and my brother is a high school graduate. IG: 10:42 I see, so did he go into the family business? EK: 10:49 He did not. He had, psychological problems. So he has not worked. IG: 10:55 I see, I understand. So you decided to go to Harpur because of its affordability and because of its reputation? What was the reputation of the college back then? EK: 11:09 The reputation of Harpur was that it was the [inaudible] public schools. It had a great reputation, and it was really just starting up. I do not know how it got a good reputation so fast. So they have just been Triple Cities College a few years before. IG: 11:28 So did you learn about this from your friends, from your academic advisor? Do you remember? EK: 11:37 I do not remember. I needed a lot of research myself, but also had a pretty good values counselor, so you probably helped me. IG: 11:44 Okay and you financed your own education. What did you work during your college education or during the summers? When did you make money? EK: 11:59 I always worked during the summers, and once in a while, I worked during the semesters in the cafeteria, you know, cleaning up the trays in the cafeteria. IG: 12:10 Okay. EK: 12:12 I mean, the campus. I was just here; the campus looks very different. There was one cafeteria, and everybody had to eat on campus. IG: 12:21 What were your first impressions a city girl from Brooklyn, from Coney Island, coming to really the boondocks. So what did you think? EK: 12:39 In the first place, my father was one of those guys that would not use a map, so he drove to Albany and went to the left turn to get to Binghamton. So it took us two days. We pulled up, and it was nothing but mud. There were two, three buildings and mud. "Are you horrified?" I said, "Take me home. I do not be here." And they had not finished the dorms. There were only two dorms, two girls dorms and two guys dorms, and they had not finished them. So they had us tripled up in the dorms for the first semester. So it was, I guess it was after the [inaudible] in a lot of ways. IG: 13:22 So how-how long did it take you to acclimate to these new surroundings, and what helped you? EK: 13:34 Well, it took me a few weeks. I was really depressed in the beginning, and then I started to meet people. I had a boyfriend. I met friends who were also from New York. There was an extreme divide. I do not know if this still is, between the upstate and the downstate students. IG: 13:52 There was a big difference? EK: 13:55 A huge difference. So the downstate students were my friends. They were familiar to me. They were also from Brooklyn or Long Island or the smartest kids in their class and so on. The upstate students were also very [inaudible] were the smartest students I have ever met at any school that I have gone to, and they were smarter than a lot of the faculty where I taught. So I like that. The upstate students were just industrious. They just studied all the time. So the first two roommates that I had, were set the alarm o'clock for six o'clock in the morning, go to the cafeteria, have breakfast and begin studying before their classes. The first time I have ever seen people study like that. IG: 14:43 What were some cultural differences, if any, between the upstate and downstate students? Could you remember any anecdotes? EK: 14:54 Um, the upstate students went to church on Sunday morning, early [inaudible], and they would, they got in couples or in friendship groups, and only used to study in the state union of the library and then study from morning to night. IG: 15:19 And but you, you must have studied as well. I mean, what was your experience of academics at Harpur? How did you- did not you find it rigorous, or did- EK: 15:35 Much more rigorous than anything I had done before. And so I did study, and I wanted to be a psychologist, but the Psychology Department only did rat psychology. The 1960s was the height of Skinnerian psychology, so that meant you studied rats and boxes and not people. So I will tell you an anecdote. We do not have to live for three hours every week, and they eat a little like closet with your rat. Your rat had a fresh bar to get food. I do not know if you are familiar with those kinds of studies. That is Skinnerian psychology, and I became so bored because my rat was asleep. It turns out that rats are not trainer animals, so they sleep all day. So nobody saw the rat in setting up the labs. So I took a pencil and I poked my rat to get it to wake up and do the study psychopaths, of course, and rats [inaudible] with me. And so I went to the whatever it was in the nurse's station at the Student Union. I got a tetanus shot, and I dropped psychology, and I majored in foreign languages. IG: 16:53 What, um. That is very interesting. It echoes some of the experiences of other alumni who studied psychology. They also complained about rat psychology. EK: 17:08 There was no people psychology at all. You could forget about it if you went to that and I wound up majoring in Russian language and literature, which I think was a good start for being a psychologist. Anyway, Dostoevsky, Chekov all of them. IG: 17:24 Yes-yes. That is what I studied as well. EK: 17:28 Did you? IG: 17:29 Yes. EK: 17:29 So as a result, I mean, Russia is coming back before the Russian maybe it will be useful. IG: 17:36 Perhaps. EK: 17:37 An interesting topic to study. IG: 17:40 It is an interesting without question. It is an interesting topic to study. It is an interest. It is a rich literature to study. So you nonetheless, so um, so you were disappointed with sort of the direction of psychology courses. How did you find the Russian literature courses who were some of your professors? EK: 18:08 You know, they had the early professors there that we still had moved over from the community college, so I had, we used to call them by their last names [inaudible] they did not have doctorates, but they were both from Russia, and from [inaudible] IG: 18:37 I see, I see. So you know, how was that? IG: 18:43 It was the Russian department. IG: 18:45 That was the Russian department. How did you find your experience? EK: 18:50 I love languages, so I found it very interesting. IG: 18:53 Did they teach- EK: 18:55 And Russian was much more difficult in psychology, because we had to read War and Peace and all that in the original. IG: 19:02 Really, you read- EK: 19:04 I am probably the only person you know that read War and Peace in the original, but I still have the book. It was a tremendous effort. IG: 19:16 That is, I could imagine, that is extremely impressive. That is an education in itself. EK: 19:21 It was. And then when I finally went back to psychology at Northern Washington University in the people psychology, you still had to take your, you still had to take nine years exams to get an advanced degree. And I took my English, and was a beast. IG: 19:40 I could imagine after reading War and Peace in its entirety, you probably did better. You probably knew more than a lot of the faculty, the Russian faculty there. EK: 19:54 Probably I do not recommend it. I mean, it is really origins, but I need to learn a lot. I was very happy with the major, because I got to know languages, and then I did psychology later on, and it really showed me instead, because of the rigorousness of Harpur, is what really changed me. I was from one of those school [inaudible] in high school. It really changed me into taking education really seriously and studying and being prepared and so on. IG: 20:25 So um, you um, studied Russian very intensively. You worked in the cafeteria and in the summers to pay your way through college. But you- did you participate in residential life? What was that like for you? EK: 20:49 Residential life was not much. We had, you know, that was we had a paid-telephone in the hall, and that was the only telephone so everybody's boyfriends would go in in the evening, we had a curfew. I believe it was 10:30. There was a curfew for the girls, not for the guys. So everybody would say good night at 10:30 and then the phone would start ringing. But there was only one phone, and so residential life, as I remember it now, revolve around a lot, around the [inaudible], and what fraternity did he belong to, and what dances you went to, and things like that. IG: 21:31 And you mentioned you had a boyfriend. EK: 21:35 Yes, I did. IG: 21:35 And so what-what life did he expose you? EK: 21:42 He, um [inaudible] is actually his name. I kept his name. [inaudible] Uram was actually my family's name. IG: 21:53 Oh, that is very interesting. EK: 21:56 So and I just actually saw his sister for the first time. And, I do not know how many years, I just did a TED talk last year. I hope maybe you were there. IG: 22:10 I know I was not there. I so I miss your talk. So- EK: 22:19 I just saw her for the first time in years, and his parents had gone, but she still felt like family to me. So he was a townie, what we used to call a townie, yes. Oh, and he commuted, and he lived at home with his parents. So being that he commuted, they got him a car. So that was like the epitome he had a car. We could go places. We could go out on dates. He we used to drive all over upstate New York. I do not know if [inaudible] still there. It was a monastery. IG: 22:56 Yes, I visited it. EK: 22:58 It was a beautiful experience. It is like we used to do things like that quite a bit together, especially on the weekends. And he studied and also worked this whole time [inaudible]. And his mother worked in- as a waitress in the Arlington Hotel. I do not know if it is still there. Third speaker 23:21 What hotel? EK: 23:21 It was one of those ugly buildings, and she gave him all his money so he could go out and date and do things like that. So we had a pretty good time. And I was close to his family, because they were right there. So I go spend Christmas with the family and so on. And most of the activities centered around what they called Men's social clubs. They did not have fraternities. There was no football they were going to be principal and not have a football team, not have fraternities and so on. So but they had men's social clubs. And so most of the activities were for [inaudible] and then on social clubs, and then the big dances. EK: 23:21 The Arlington hotel, it was downtown. Third speaker 23:21 No, I do not know. Third speaker 24:08 I have a question. So how did you feel about having a curfew because boys did not have it, girls had it. So how did it make you feel about it? EK: 24:21 You know, we did not question it that much of the time. It was 1961. Boys could and also the boys could live off campus. And we did not like it that we were not, you know, like we'd [inaudible] know about it. And a lot of the girls used to sneak out after they did it, they did a great check at 10:30 and then they climb out the window and go over to their boyfriend's place. EK: 24:42 So, it was accepted that the way girls had to be treated, and it was a little bit of a joke, because the idea was, you know, you told me you cannot get pregnant before 10:30. You know, so it was a little bit of a joke, but we took it kind of as a joke. Nobody took it that seriously. Nobody was strongly into feminism or anything. EK: 24:42 Yeah, it is interesting. IG: 25:11 Was that was feminism or the women's right movement in the air at all? EK: 25:20 Not in Binghamton. IG: 25:22 But at Harpur? EK: 25:25 No-no, not really, not really. We had some very interesting guests that came and talked to us. And so there was a lot of politics in the air, mostly Vietnam politics. [inaudible] good news. He was a very well-known writer, and he came to campus. And when the Roosevelt came to campus and he did not have any money, she charged a lot of money, and one of the student leaders told me, we do not have money left to [inaudible] And she [inaudible] limousine one day and hung out with everybody. IG: 26:04 That is great. That is great. EK: 26:06 But there was not much about feminism. The females were all there to get to get a husband and a degree. IG: 26:19 Well, you found it you know your boyfriend, and then who became your husband. Were there? Was there anxiety about the Vietnam War, and how did it express itself? And as his- EK: 26:36 Tremendous anxiety about the Vietnam War, because that was the age of the guys that were getting drafted. And so there were two ways not to get drafted. And one used to go to graduate school. [inaudible] to get in and keep studying, and the other was to get married. So a lot of people were getting married to keep the guy out of the war. A lot of my friends got married last year, and also the pill have just come out control, a- EK: 27:11 Birth control. EK: 27:12 So a lot of them, you know, even technical version in those days, the technical discussion how old you are now? IG: 27:22 Well, [crosstalk] I see, I see. EK: 27:27 And so a lot of the girls once they decided marrying a guy,[coughs] [inaudible] enjoy birth control, so they got pregnant, and the girls dropped out of the guy finished school. So a lot of my female friends went home last year to have their babies. IG: 27:50 Unmarried or married? EK: 27:51 Married, they slept with the guy only because he became engaged and they knew he was the one they were going to marry. Otherwise, she did not have sex with anybody. [inaudible] marry him, then the sexual thing has changed drastically. IG: 28:07 Yes, I agree. So was- were you involved at all in student activism, was there were any of your friends involved in student activism, and what was the nature of that? EK: 28:29 Listen very much. There was a small group of students from the city that were involved in activism, and most people mostly people, I think, kept themselves into their own group. IG: 28:49 So- EK: 28:49 And some-some activism in that Vietnam and that was all these, nothing, I remember, nothing about feminism. IG: 29:01 What about the Civil Rights Movement? EK: 29:04 Well, the civil rights movement, yes, definitely, and we will let anybody who went in March, I met, I actually worked on Shirley Chisholm presidential campaign that was already in California. IG: 29:19 That is very interesting. [crosstalk] yeah, she is one of the people we have interviewed in our 60s collection. EK: 29:34 She was not really the first woman to do anything, and she really was a tough woman, history [inaudible] president. Then I was already in California, doing my internship. And once I got to California, I got I was not very aware of politics. I was just doing my own life. And when I was at Hartford, once I got to California, there was civil rights. It was Vietnam, there was black people running for offices, all kinds of stuff, and there was the abortion coalition. That was the first big issue of feminism. IG: 30:10 Was that in the (19)70s, when did you get to California? EK: 30:15 Got to California in the late (19)60s, maybe 1968 and they had started. I was in Ohio. Oh, I know- Ohio until 1968 studying psychology, and that is when the consciousness raising groups began. And so we all got ourselves in the consciousness raising group, and all became feminists, and there were no courses in psychology of women at all. They let us organize someone and teach without a faculty member, but all the faculty were men, and they did not have any idea what we were doing. So when I became a feminist, it was in the mid (19)60s. I had already, I was maybe four years out of Harpur. I was not going on while I was in Harpur. IG: 31:17 So there were no- you did not really have that much of a political awareness at that time at Harpur? EK: 31:31 [crosstalk] interested in learning and in having fun- EK: 31:38 -and that is the way I use race, that you pay attention to your own life and you do not get involved in this other stuff. My entire family is still that way. I am the only one who's political, and I became very political. I wrote in several books on [inaudible] psychology. IG: 31:38 In having fun. IG: 31:54 That is remarkable. What did you think owes to this? You know, radical departure from the way you were brought up. Is it the academic experience that you were exposed to, or what-what do you think contributed to your enlightenment? EK: 32:18 I think I academically studied and just like they call it quickly, study this stuff, and all of a sudden you realize that this is not a normal world. This is a world that you will be impressed. And so that moment, it just feels normal. Well, of course, blacks cannot go into places that whites go into. And you know, I looked at in the south, so I never really saw that. But, you know, females cannot be used, men keeping it and so on. And all of a sudden, you read the material, and there is a huge quick in your head, and you see that it is not normal, and it is not just the way the world is, the way the world will be constructed. And once you see that, you see it can all be reconstructed and reconstructed, and you know, the same again. IG: 33:09 Did you that is very interesting. Did you learn any of these intellectual skills? Do you believe at Harpur College? Did you get any of the sort of, you know, foundational, you know, intellectual, intellectual foundation for this, to make that leap? EK: 33:34 I would say, not in the sense of content, but in the sense of thought process. Because what I began to do the work that I do, I was not a therapist for too long, even though I studied therapy, but what I write is epistemology and philosophy of science. So what I wanted to do was to ask the questions. And that is what those fields are. You know, why? How do we know what we know? Is it makes a question of epistemology, and I have written several books on that topic. And I just, I actually just wrote one of the blind people who are, how do they understand gender and race? And that was my question. How do they know what they know they cannot see skin color. They cannot see any other stuff. Yet, they really need to know about all those things. IG: 34:27 So I am just curious. So how do they know? How do they perceive race? EK: 34:33 They asked their friends, you see, when I started writing the book, I was hoping that they were going to have a different system, not that they were not going to discriminate, because they were human beings, but they were going to have a different system, maybe touch, maybe something else. No, they go around and they ask their friends and then have this whole elaborate way of asking, like, if they go to a bar and they need a woman there. Her, they have a similar [inaudible], and when he shakes hands to tell them if she is pretty or ugly, so they know whether to go out with her. IG: 35:10 But they must have experienced discrimination themselves. EK: 35:15 You know, many of them did not, because they went to schools and they were all mixed together. I mean, they got to the A's when they started dating, they would bring home a boy, and the mother would say, you cannot date that boy. He is not of your race. And that is when they started learning. IG: 35:32 I see. Was there, yeah- EK: 35:36 Very startling to read about how they learn about race and gender and sexual orientation. We have a lot of stuff about transgender going on now, and they cannot tell the difference because the voice is the same. So the transgender things that are going on are just visual. And so I came to realize how much of our society is an issue. IG: 36:03 That is, that is very That is fascinating. EK: 36:09 That is actually what my Tiktok was on. It is unusual. IG: 36:14 I-I will look at it after we speak. But returning to Harpur College, did you feel that there were groups, you know, or individuals that were discriminated? Did you have, well, you probably did not have this idea of discrimination per se, but did you feel that it was there was, you know, maybe less of it because it was a homogeneous community, or was there any, any kind of discrimination on campus? EK: 36:53 There was not much. The students from downstate were almost 100 percent Jewish. Ones from upstate were almost 100 percent capital Protestant. EK: 36:58 They did not mix with each other. They did not think about marrying each other. I had friends that I do not know if you have spoken to Dolores Chapel yet. IG: 36:58 Yeah. IG: 37:09 No. EK: 37:11 She knows she is [inaudible]. IG: 37:13 Yeah, I am writing down her name. Okay. EK: 37:16 She was somebody that used to speak to; she was married to Giles Hoyt and he became a German professor. She was growing another guy ever since high school from her hometown, which was Tonawanda. When it got time to marry, she converted Catholicism, and they broke up after 10 years of dating, and she married somebody else, sure he did too. So the big discrimination was between religions, and it was not just Jewish and Catholic and Protestant, also. the, uh, I do not believe there were any other groups on campus. Everybody was white. Two men who came from Barbados and must have been on scholarship. So they were not Americans, and they did not stay very long. What happened is that one of my friends began dating, one of them, and her father happened to be a photographer, and so she sent, she only sent her pictures home to be developed. Remember, they used to develop pictures. He saw that she was sitting on the lap of a black man, and he pulled her out of school and made her come to Hofstra so and there were two black men. There were maybe 400 students in each class, if I remember correctly, and everybody else was white, if you consider [inaudible] used to be white. IG: 38:55 I am laughing. And yet, Ellyn, you married, you know, someone who was a townie. I married a Catholic boy. So isn't that kind of a very rebellious, you know, decision to have made, and- EK: 39:18 Yes. You seem to getting to know me, I was not rebellious, I just do what I want to do. And especially then, it was like that. And also, I had dated him for four years, but my family should have been ready for it. IG: 39:33 Right. Have they? EK: 39:34 You know, I met him in freshman year. IG: 39:37 Yeah, had they met him? EK: 39:39 But neither of us had any particular variation. IG: 39:49 So did you encounter any resistance from either of the families? EK: 39:56 My family. IG: 39:57 Yeah, yeah. But you prevailed. EK: 40:04 It was not a horrible resistance to say, he knew they could not control me by that point. IG: 40:10 I-I guess not. EK: 40:13 Yeah, I was going to do what I was going to do. So we got married, and part of the reason we got married, this is a funny anecdote that you are making me think of it is they had $250 round trip. You could go to Europe for the summer. It was a shorter flight. And I said, I cannot go to Europe. I do not marry him. We cannot travel around Europe. It is not like today. And so the week before graduation, we got married, week after we went and spent some [inaudible]. IG: 40:45 I have known people to get married for lesser reasons. EK: 40:53 That is the main reason that I married him. IG: 40:56 Well, you know, if you read contemporary Soviet literature, you know, there is stories by Trifonov [Yury Trifonov] about, you know, couples marrying because somebody had a- an apartment in a prime neighborhood- EK: 41:18 Oh yeah, [inaudible] IG: 41:21 -apartment with an extra room. So-so I am curious, how do you think that your classmates remember you from Harpur College days? EK: 41:32 A lot of the people I was friendly with had graduated, most of the New York City kids who went back the second year we could not take it in Binghamton, so a lot of us did not graduate together. There are fewer in touch with Peter Carroll Oliver [inaudible] or Erin Oliver, IG: 41:53 No. EK: 41:56 Well, you missed. IG: 41:58 No. I mean, I- no, I do not. EK: 42:01 I do not know if you want to list the people in general. IG: 42:04 That would be wonderful. That would be wonderful, but I need to speak to graduates, I think. But it would be really wonderful to get a list from you. EK: 42:18 Carol graduating from there. Bruce Benderson graduated from there. He became a writer, and he lives in Paris and writes in French. IG: 42:27 Oh, wow. EK: 42:27 So he'd be an interesting guy. Yes. Carol Oliver became a one of those Maharishi people, and she lives in Iowa at Maharishi University. IG: 42:41 That is great. EK: 42:43 And, you know, there was a lot of hippie stuff going on. IG: 42:48 Was there experimentation drugs? EK: 42:56 There was not much drugs. I remember Cal gave me for a wedding present, a nickel bag of grass. To translate into current lingo, a nickel bag was like $5 worth of marijuana. That was a wedding present for me, and I had never seen it before. I did not know what to do with it. There was not much in the way of drugs. It was a lot of alcohol. IG: 43:23 A lot of alcohol. So but my question was more, what do you think that? How do you think your classmates would remember you? How do you remember yourself from that period? EK: 43:46 I remember myself as mostly being [inaudible] and his friends and studying and socializing and not being anything. So I am not sure how many of them would remember me, except the ones that I was close to. Names that I am hearing you will definitely remember me. IG: 44:10 So you are in touch with these other people? EK: 44:13 Not in touch with some of them, but some of them even come up on Facebook and see what they are doing. The reason I know about Giles and Dolores is when John first came out here with some [inaudible] he was trying to give some money to the German department or something. He was a German major, IG: 44:36 And his name is Giles? IG: 44:38 All right. EK: 44:38 And I do not think I got along with him very well, because they do not set the alarm to six o'clock in the morning to get up and study it. I was like, "Are you people crazy?" So, you know, because they had, they had fair people often with what we get along well as roommates. And when I did finally get the roommate, they had fairly rich. They were right. We did not get along. Oh, here is another funny story. Her name was, I mean, I do not know how much detail you want. Her name was Sophia Kashack, K, A, S C H, A, K, and she sat next to Bob in orientation. His name was Kaschak, and she fixed me up on a blind date with him. That is how I met him. So [inaudible] EK: 44:38 Giles G, I, L, E, S, and his last name is H, O, Y, T, and the wife [inaudible] I guess, I guess she took his name. Her name was Doris. She was my roommate. She was my first roommate. IG: 45:39 I am- And so Kaschak, how do you spell that again? K, A- EK: 45:45 My version? IG: 45:46 Your version EK: 45:47 K, A, S, C HA, K IG: 45:51 So similar to yours? With [crosstalk] yeah, I understand. So, what do you think you know kind of looking back on this experience at Harpur College, what lessons did you learn from life at this time, from this time? EK: 46:15 Well, the thing that was most important to me is how intelligent the students were, that I finally there had people I could have conversations with, you know, on the equal level, and that there were other people in the world who thought about the things that I thought about and wanted to do the things that I wanted to do. And I think that really served me a lot because that brought me out of my shell. In some way, it made me realize all the things that was possible to do. So in some ways, I would say there were a few good faculty members, but mostly it was the other students for me. IG: 47:00 And you were kind of, you found yourself, you were coming into your own, or you were finding yourself. EK: 47:06 I was, I did find myself. I very much came into my own. My retirement on psychology. I had quite a bit of confidence and so forth. IG: 47:17 That is wonderful. EK: 47:20 I did not have that when I went to Harpur, I was just kind of beaten down and told not to go to college and get married and all that. Love to see some of those people again, but it would be a shock. I am sure you think that you look exactly the same and everybody else has changed. IG: 47:45 I am sure that there would be there you would find common ground if you were friends during your formative years at college, I think that there would be a connection still. EK: 47:57 I think so too. And a lot of them went on to be writers, and a couple of them from, you know, in Hollywood, Richie Cunningham and what is the other guy's name, there were a few graduates eventually- the usual audience are very-very big Hollywood producers, Rob Reiner and people that you would know. IG: 48:27 Wow. It would be so helpful. So to get a list, a short list, EK: 48:35 You do not have those names. IG: 48:36 I have those names, but I cannot identify them from lists of hundreds of people. So if you [crosstalk] I just have a whole directory. And the year they graduate I do not have, I-I- you know, you are pinpointing the people that would be very interesting for me to talk to, and I think for posterity, to have- EK: 48:59 Yeah, people that went on to be very well known in Hollywood, to be very good writers. I cannot think of that. It is not coming to me right now, but it will. IG: 49:09 Okay that it would be really great. So you know, for-for someone listening to this tape. And you know, considering-considering, you know, the considering going to Binghamton University in just in a future generation. What could you tell this prospective student about your experience and about-about what are the most important lessons that you have learned in life that relate to education? EK: 49:52 You know, it is hard for me to say, because Binghamton is so different. It was like a small I wanted a small college room. I would get to know everybody, and it would be like a community, and that is what it was. And now I do not even know any people that were there, but it is overwhelming to come to the campus. I was extremely impressed. John took me around, but it seems like they have a lot of really fascinating opportunities and summer programs and things like that that I was very impressed with, and I still think the students are very bright. EK: 50:27 Yeah. EK: 50:27 I think it is very important. I do not know. I cannot, I cannot really say, because I was there for two days. I think it is very important. From what I understand, the faculty is very good right now. Also, I met Russian Studies faculty, that is kind of what I am interested in. And I met Don and Harvey and [inaudible] studies faculty, Liam Mueller and whatever it is, and they are very enthusiastic and very motivating. But I think at least for me, the most important thing were the other students, the first time in my life, the other students were as smart as I was, and able to have the conversations I wanted to have, and that is really what changed me. EK: 51:18 But I could not hear it now. EK: 51:28 It does not even does not even look the same. IG: 51:30 Yeah. EK: 51:30 You will see some of the pictures because they sent a picture of the student union and the old dorms, which I can go offices now. And it is a completely different place. It would be hard for me to comment on it now. I think it is a top education. IG: 51:44 Yes, that is a wonderful plug, but your criticism or your advice to future administrations is to have a greater diversity of students and faculty. Is that it? EK: 52:01 I think they have it now, I looked at it when I was there. IG: 52:04 Yes, okay. EK: 52:06 I was just there last March when I did the TED talk and I said, "Oh my god, they have every city, every color, every other people." I think they have done it. IG: 52:15 They have done it. EK: 52:16 Without my advice, IG: 52:17 Without your advice. EK: 52:21 Because the world has changed so much. IG: 52:23 Yes, it has. EK: 52:25 You know, you cannot do that. IG: 52:28 I have. EK: 52:29 I was very impressed by the administrators and the faculty that I met. I met a few students because I gave a scholarship for summer work with women. So I met that student and some of the students had questions. They came to talk to me. IG: 52:44 That is wonderful. Any concluding remarks? Ellyn, I know that you are braving your cold so we can end now after an hour, but I would like to ask you if you had if you have any concluding thoughts or remarks, EK: 53:08 [inaudible] and also feel free to call me again when I am not sick, if you need other comments or other names or something. I am just getting over that horrible [inaudible]. So that is what this caution is about. I live in, oh, I live in Costa Rica now. IG: 53:28 Oh, that is incredible. EK: 53:31 Just here for a few weeks to take care of taxes and business. And so I went down to Costa Rica when I was in George Washington, and got to know the place, and I have been teaching there and training students and training therapists throughout probably four decades. In addition to being here, I split my time. IG: 53:50 So what are, what are the university that you are teaching at in Costa Rica? EK: 53:57 It is called the University for Peace, and it is the United Nations campus. There are four of them in the world. They bring students in from- this is how much I changed from back then. They bring students in from all over the world, and they teach them skills that hopefully are, you know, conflict resolution, and skills that are hopefully helpful in bringing about peace. And they send them back to their countries. They become diplomats, they become presidents of their countries, and it is one way to try to bring about peace. And they are wonderful students. IG: 54:32 That is wonderful. And what do you teach them? You teach them what? EK: 54:38 I teach gender and peace. My- I have got my [inaudible] to be, you know, gender and ethnicity and sexual orientation, pretty much, but as a clinical psychologist, so I teach them those topics and how they handle their peace issues. IG: 54:55 What a wonderful life. EK: 54:58 It is fabulous. I love it there. It turned out to be [inaudible]. And I keep writing I just have a look at so- I could say that about Harpur also got me started on exactly the life I wanted to have and I was meant to have. IG: 55:14 That is very gratifying to hear. EK: 55:18 And I am thinking now about getting some kind of donation to a program, because I am really grateful that they starting out. IG: 55:25 Well, I if-if I can, I will pass that information to John Koch, and he will be delighted. I am sure. EK: 55:35 I have noticed him very well. I have met with him several times, working on what project I can do. He is a lovely man. IG: 55:41 I will, I will let him know. EK: 55:45 Okay, and if you need to find me, yeah, like an ocean sound, okay? IG: 55:50 I will. I will, in a few days, I will email you for those names. I taken some down, but I, I am, I will, I will do a follow up, EK: 56:02 Okay, and take the coughing out of my tape. IG: 56:04 I will, we will, we will. Okay, thank you so much. EK: 56:12 Happy to talk to you again anytime you want to. IG: 56:15 Thank you so much. Get better soon. EK: 56:18 Thank you. IG: 56:19 Bye, bye. Take care. Bye, bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ellyn Uram Kaschak Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Ellyn Kaschak is an award-winning psychologist, author, teacher and human rights activist. She is a professor emerita of psychology at San Jose State University. She teaches in the gender studies program at University for Peace in Costa Rica. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaschak, Ellyn Uram ; Gashurov, Irene Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Ellyn Kaschak.mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Language A language of the resource eng Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-02-13 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 56:23 minutes Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/db07d2a3541c28677edb4bffcdcffe75.mp3 2a4a5b8141094ebfb7f9fa67a87824f2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Andrew Grant Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Dr. Andrew Grant is a retired Assistant VP for Institutional Advancement at Hebrew Union College in NYC. He worked as a disc jockey at WHRW-FM. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Hebrew Union College; Harpur College – Alumni living in Suffolk County, Long Island Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Hebrew Union College; Harpur College – Alumni living in Suffolk County, Long Island Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Andrew Grant Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 14 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Where are you, if I may ask? Are you at home or in your office? AG: 00:04 I do not have an office. I am retired. IG: 00:06 Oh! AG: 00:07 On January 2. IG: 00:09 Could you- well, congratulations on your retirement. We just want to make you a little bit louder. I am- Third speaker 00:15 Okay. This is, I think, the loudest. IG: 00:19 That is the loudest it can go? IG: 00:20 do I need to do that? Or you do that? Yeah, it does. It does not get louder, yeah, can you? Can you do it from your end? Dr, Chris, AG: 00:31 I do not think so. I think my volume control is only- my machine, Third speaker 00:37 Yeah. AG: 00:37 Is that better, or no? IG: 00:40 I think so. I think so, okay, okay, so why do not we begin, um- AG: 00:48 [inaudible] you need to move a little bit more together so I can see. IG: 00:54 Okay-okay, so we are not- Third speaker 00:58 Okay, okay, I will just- IG: 01:00 I am just looking through my notes. That is, that is why I moved away. Okay, so why do not we begin with you identifying yourself when you were born, what you do and when you went to Binghamton, AG: 01:27 What was the last one? IG: 01:29 When you went to Binghamton? Or we could ask that later. AG: 01:34 Okay. My name is Andrew grant. I was born in November of 1946. I went to Binghamton. I graduated in 1967. IG: 01:46 Okay, very good. So where did you grow up? AG: 01:51 In Manhattan and the Bronx. IG: 01:54 Oh, may I ask where in Manhattan? AG: 01:58 In Washington Heights. IG: 01:59 Oh, I lived in Washington Heights. AG: 02:02 Where? IG: 02:04 By Fort Tryon Park. AG: 02:05 Yeah, that is where I lived. IG: 02:07 Okay, 1/80 and Fort Washington Avenue in probably the most beautiful apartment building and apartment that I have ever lived in. It was beautiful, Art Deco. AG: 02:24 Yeah, I was, we were on 1/90 and Hillside. Speaker 1 02:27 Okay, AG: 02:27 At the lower at the lower end of the park, my sister actually still has an apartment up there. IG: 02:31 Oh! Well, um, yeah, I am familiar with that area very well, and a lot of my Russian emigre friends lived there. There was a big Russian community in Washington Heights, but that is, that is after your time. AG: 02:52 That is after my time. My time was, it was many Holocaust survivors, as-as-as was my family. IG: 03:02 Yeah, okay. These were, these were refuseniks who came to the US in the late (19)70s and early (19)80s. A lot of- AG: 03:15 My parents. My parents came from Germany in 1940. IG: 03:18 Okay-okay, all right, so and who were your parents? AG: 03:25 Who were they? Who were my- the names? IG: 03:27 What you can tell us their names, what did they do? What was their occupation? Where were they from? You mentioned this briefly. They were from Germany. They came in 1940. What did they do in Germany? What did they do in the United States? What was their occupation? AG: 03:47 My father, my father had a- his family had a textile company, and when he came to the States, he became a textile salesman. My mother was a homemaker. IG: 03:59 Okay, all right. And did they- did your parents go to college? IG: 04:06 No. IG: 04:07 Yeah. And what were their- 04:09 -and they did not pick it up when they got here. IG: 04:12 I see what were their expectations for you in terms of college? Was education valued in your family? AG: 04:20 It was they expected that I would go to college, and I did. IG: 04:31 So can you elaborate a little bit? Were they supportive of your- I mean, did they help you study? Did they help you choose your college, or were they, yeah- Speaker 2 04:46 It was, it was not a- an issue- was always assumed that it would go to college and we- they, you know, it was very different in those days. I just- my daughter just graduated from Colby, and the process of getting her situated in the school that she wanted to go with all the visits and the trips was very different. We went to visit Binghamton. I saw it. I do not think I visited any other schools. I chose it for a number of reasons. It had a good reputation. It was a state school. It was inexpensive. I had a regional scholarship, so it became less expensive, and there was not as much thought about it when I went to school, certainly as when my daughter weighed her options for which school she wanted to go to. IG: 05:52 Okay, I-I-I- that was also the experience, my experience versus my daughter's, I think a lot more thought went into her college selection. So what was your experience at Harpur College? AG: 06:18 It was- IG: 06:19 Yeah. AG: 06:20 I guess the best word I could use is bland. IG: 06:23 Bland. AG: 06:24 It was bland. It was, it was- I was not, you know, there was a lot going on in the (19)60s. I was not much of an activist. It was, it was a question of getting through my studies. I was not a superior student by any means my academic success came much later on, when I, when I proceeded, pursued my doctorate. I had a small group of friends and was not very much involved. I was involved with the radio station, so that was my extracurricular activity. And it was really a question of trying to find myself at that time. IG: 07:05 Well, that is, I mean, these are all very interesting points, so maybe let us start with the most interesting to you, which was the radio station. Tell us about that. AG: 07:19 It was, well, I was, I was looking for an extracurricular opportunity there as and all of the clubs and all of the other extracurricular activities, there was, you know, I guess there was a fair, or whatever it was they displayed. And it was, it was, I had never done that before. And it was, it was an interesting group of people, and we all got our FCC licenses, and that was where I spent most of the- my time that was not in class and in the library. IG: 07:53 So the radio station was conducted from the library, the physical space? AG: 07:58 No-no, It was conducted- IG: 08:00 Oh, I see I misunderstood. AG: 08:03 I was either in class or in the library study- IG: 08:05 I see, I see I misunderstood. Okay, so I would like you to talk more about the radio station. Where was it located? AG: 08:15 I think it was in the student center, if I remember correctly. And we had a- in those days was it was, I think while I was there, they expanded it, they bought a much more powerful transmitter, and I had many of my friends that I was close with and I met through the through the radio station. Third speaker 08:45 Wait, what was it called? AG: 08:47 WHRW. Third speaker 08:49 Because it is still continuing, and I still listen. They play great music. New Age, different- IG: 09:00 Oh. Third speaker 09:00 Yeah, they do. I even listen some Turkish music there. IG: 09:04 Oh wow, that is incredible. Third speaker 09:06 Yes. AG: 09:09 They still have reunions. I know that I did not go to my reunion. I went back to Binghamton a few years after I graduated, and I got lost on the campus, and that was the last time I went back. AG: 09:20 I graduated in (19)67 maybe (19)71-(19)72. [crosstalk] you have to remember, if you look at an aerial photograph of the campus, there is a kidney shaped drive that goes around in the middle. That is all there was. And in those days, that kidney shaped drive that went around a number of the buildings, but that was the entire campus at that time, and then it expanded tremendously. IG: 09:22 When was that? IG: 09:55 Hmm. Yeah, that that is our impression from speaking with other graduates from-from this time, from the (19)60s, that it was kind of a, you know, a smaller, much smaller version um-um. of-of- it was, it was actually a different-different-different type of campus. It was very kind of bare bones. But returning to the- excuse me. AG: 10:27 It was tiny. IG: 10:28 It was tiny. But returning, I am really curious about the radio station. What role did you play? Was-was the- was it a sound studio? I mean, how- what-what was the equipment that you used? AG: 10:42 I did not hear the question, was it a, what type of studio? IG: 10:48 Sound studio, sound studio. AG: 10:51 inaudible] It was- there was a, there was an office, and there was a, there was a- an on-air studio with offices, you know, an office around it, and wherever the trend, the transmitter was someplace else. And we- I did some of the, some administrative activities we all managed, helped manage it, and I did a little bit of on air announcing. IG: 11:29 What kind of music did you play? What kind of talk shows did you have, if any? AG: 11:35 [inaudible] talk shows. I did some-some music, some-some popular, current music and of the day. IG: 11:43 So what, what was, you know, some of the- AG: 11:46 Easy listening kind of stuff. IG: 11:47 I see. It was, is that? So, what role did you have? Did you decide on, on what music was? Went on air? AG: 11:58 Yeah, for those, for those few shows, and I was what they call the traffic manager, and now we are talking 50 years ago, so you are testing my memory. IG: 12:09 I am. [laughs] AG: 12:11 More than 50 years ago. IG: 12:13 More than 50 years ago. Okay, so it was, it was really easy listening. There were no, there were no, there was not much reporting. Or did you do any reporting? AG: 12:27 A little bit, we did a little bit of news. I think I filled in one night for-for somebody who, who did the news, who was not able to make his show. So I was, I was, I was a fill in for that night. IG: 12:39 Was the news local, or was it national? AG: 12:44 It was national., IG: 12:45 it was national. AG: 12:46 National. Yeah. IG: 12:47 So- AG: 12:49 We had a UPI ticker. So we read the news from the UPI ticker that came in. We had a subscription to that. It was, it was a fairly well supported function. IG: 13:04 How many were you? AG: 13:08 Oh, I would not begin to try to remember that well. IG: 13:12 Approximately. Was-was it 10? Was it two? Was it 100? AG: 13:19 I would say that maybe involved in the in the station at that time, maybe there, there were 20 people. IG: 13:24 I see. So, you, you do not remember what the news of the day was. What were the important discussions that were taking place during those years? Do- AG: 13:37 Well, I was it was the Vietnam War, obviously. Was that- was this, the 67 war, these- in Israel was development of the State of Israel, the war. Those are the ones that that stand up. IG: 13:58 Yeah, do you remember what you know, position, politically, the radio talk show hosts would take of the war. Were they- were you just neutrally reporting events? Or- AG: 14:18 I do not remember. IG: 14:19 You do not remember. AG: 14:20 I would assume it was, it was an anti-war stance because of who we were, but I cannot conjure that out of my memory. IG: 14:32 Right. That is understandable. So how many years did you spend on the radio? Was it your entire college career, or...? [crosstalk] AG: 14:50 My college career was only three years, because I took advantage of the trimester system, I went, I went two summers, I should have graduated in (19)68. I graduated from high school in (19)64 but I went two summers and made up a full year that way. IG: 15:10 That is pretty intense. AG: 15:12 It was a mistake. IG: 15:14 Yeah. So what was, what were your academics like? What did you study? What was your major? AG: 15:23 Major was political science. I intended to go to law school. I went- had a year of law school, and then I would have been drafted. So at that time, there was- we were looking, everybody was looking for an option, and I became a New York City school teacher. IG: 15:43 Oh. AG: 15:44 I was in, I was in law school, and my mother called me up, and she said she and my friend's mother had gone down to the Board of Ed, and that they, they had, there was a teacher shortage, and they-they had a program which was called manpower channeling, so anybody became a teacher got a deferment. I spent, I think was five or six years teaching in elementary school, and I was already pursuing my-my doctorate at that time in public administration at NYU. What happened with that program is the city bought courses in all the local universities, and they paid for 12 credits for anybody who was accepted in that program was fairly competitive, as you can imagine, because-because it was all guys who were looking for an alternative to the draft. So I completed, they gave me 12 credits at NYU. I completed a master's in an education in 1970 and then I was very much interested in urban planning and enrolled in the- what is now the Wagner school for public service. Wagner that time known as the graduate school for public administration, and I was in that master's program for maybe a year or two, and they came out with a PhD MUP option, which is what I eventually graduated from. IG: 17:38 Interesting. So while you were teaching, where did you teach? Which neighborhood? AG: 17:45 In Marble Hill, in the Bronx. IG: 17:46 In the what? Excuse me. AG: 17:48 Marble Hill in the Bronx. IG: 17:50 Oh, I know where that is- a beautiful museum. So returning to Harpur College, how- did-did- Was there any- do you remember any faculty at Harpur that made an impression on you? AG: 18:12 Yeah, I remember, I- as a political science major. I was- I took many of the political science courses I but I the one that stands out most was an English teacher by the name of Sheldon Grebstein, who I eventually met later on he became the president of SUNY Purchase for a while since retired, but I was there, and I lived close by to that campus. I had a membership to their swimming pool, and I had met him before I was a senior, and I took his poetry clothes- course. There was also a political science professor by the name of Blair Ewing, who left there, whom I remembered because I was accused of having stolen his final exam. IG: 19:12 And did you, did you? AG: 19:17 I did not. AG: 19:18 It was a, it was quite a, quite a traumatic- I was a very naive young man, and I had a- one of the best final exam schedules I ever had. It was a dream schedule. I was done on Wednesday, and I had a date in New York to see one of the other students at Harpur's, to go to Peter Paul and Mary concert. And I was home for a day, and I get a call from the Dean, and they say, "You have been implicated in a cheating scandal. You have been accused of having stolen Professor Ewing's final exam." "What-what are you? No, they did not tell me that." They just said that I had been implicated in a cheating scandal, and they wanted me to come back. So, I said, I am not coming back. I did not do anything. We will deal with it when I get back after semester break, so the phone goes back and forth and back and forth, and they got my attention when they told me I could have an attorney present. IG: 19:18 You did not. [laughs] IG: 20:31 That you could what? AG: 20:34 That I could have an attorney present. IG: 20:38 Oh-oh, wow, wow, that is serious. AG: 20:41 That was serious. So, I said to the dean, "Give me the benefit of the doubt and assume that I have no idea what you are talking about," which I did not, "and tell me what I have been accused of, or I will not come back. Either give me some details," I said. They told me that I was holding up the entire classes grades. Remember very well it was, it was Blair Ewing's course in totalitarians, comparative totalitarian systems. And I said, you tell me "Why you think I did something, and then I will come back." So they said that I had been accused of having stolen an exam. I had broken into his office and stolen exam. And then I sort of started remembering I had spoken to a friend of mine who actually was the general manager of the radio station, and I had spoken to him previously, and he had, like most students do, give me the details of this professor's previous exams, and he never changed his exams, so the questions were familiar. And I called him up and I said, I this is what is going on. He was still on campus because he was, he was involved in some activities that that he needed to be there for. And I said, "Look, I do not want a character reference. I want you to write a letter to the dean and tell her detail exactly what you told me without any without any value judgment." So this also happened to me, my first plane flight ever. I get back up to campus, I go into the dean's office. Ewing is sitting there. First words he said to me. And I- you can remember, you can imagine how-how prominent this is in my memory, because I remember it exactly. 50,52, 53, years later, he looked at me said, "Mr. Grant, I do not think you cheated. You should have done better." IG: 22:59 What an excellent response. AG: 23:01 I said, "What did I get?" He said, "You got to be on the exam." So, I sit down, and there is a young woman who is sitting there, and I recognized her as a student in the class, and then I remembered that I had met her in the in the snack bar just before the exam, and I saw her studying for the exam, and I said to her, "Well, you, you should study these things, and this is going to be the-the format of the of the exam." So I was talking to her, she reported me for having stolen test. IG: 23:34 How terrible. Third speaker 23:35 Oh my god. IG: 23:36 How terrible. How terrible. AG: 23:38 She thought she had missed out on something. So, I said to them, first of all, you had the letter from-from Joe Breast who was the, who was the general manager of the radio station. His main name may be familiar with Columbia, if you were going through the records of those days, who he and I graduated again, look to the data. I said, "Is it considered absolute academic dishonesty to research previous exams?" They said, "Absolutely not." I said, "Is it my fault?" And I looked at him "that you never change your exam questions." And so they got a chuckle out of that. And then this student looked at me, and she said, "But you knew the exact format of the exam," and I said to her, "As would you had you not cut the class where he gave that to us in class?" IG: 24:28 I am sorry. As- what did you tell her? AG: 24:31 She-she had cut the class where he gave us the format. IG: 24:35 I see. I see. I see. I see. I see. Oh, how terrible. AG: 24:41 I said "Was there ever any evidence of your office having broken into it that somebody had taken your exam?" "No-no-no." I looked at them and said, "So, what am I doing here?" And they looked at me and they said, "Well, there was a good faith accusation, and we had to follow up." So, they paid all of my expenses and sent me on my way, and the dean looked at me, and she said, "Next time, do not be so forthcoming with information for somebody else." IG: 25:13 What was the good faith student reprimanded? AG: 25:18 Again, I never saw her again. She just she vanished from campus. I think she was embarrassed. I do not think they reprimanded her, because she felt that she had enough information to-to make that good faith accusation. But she-she was the kind of student who cut a lot of the classes and all the and he had given us a great deal of information about the exam, so that was kind of one of the highlights of my college experience. It was not a pleasant one, but it came out okay, but I did not realize in my naivete how close I was to being expelled. IG: 25:56 But what I mean, it is just, it is awful. It is an awful experience that-that you know, reminds me of, of the time of Stalin, where, you know, neighbors would denounce each other. You know, but- AG: 26:16 Certainly, the case Nazi Germany for my parents. IG: 26:18 Yeah-yeah. Yes-yes. I mean, it is very, it is very similar, and but it must have been a really formative experience as well. Do you, do you- how do you think that that- I mean, it was a shock, probably to the system, and how did- what-what impact did it have on you? AG: 26:38 It was, it was, really, was not a shock. Because I-I believe I did not do anything so there was nothing, there was nothing. There could be no consequences, because I did not do anything which is stupid. I become much more circumspect in terms of information I give at the people and what you know, what I say, I felt I looked at them and I said, we could have done this on the phone. IG: 27:06 Yeah. AG: 27:08 If there was no evidence of any breach, we could have done it on the phone and-and have saved ourselves all of this time, expense and-and stress, [crosstalk] much more cautious person. I am- I certainly have disabused myself of the notion that-that being innocent protects you so that those- that was, that was, in fact, a formative experience. Third speaker 27:39 When did that happen? Were you a sophomore, freshman? Would- AG: 27:43 I think it was a sophomore. AG: 27:45 No. IG: 27:45 No, it is okay. It is all right. IG: 27:45 Do you remember the Dean's name? AG: 27:52 I remember the professor's name. He certainly can. IG: 27:55 Yeah. AG: 27:55 I am sure that is in the annals someplace. IG: 27:58 Well, so you were a sophomore, you returned for your junior year? What did your friends say about this incident? Do you remember? AG: 28:08 They just shook their heads. I said, you know this thing, it was, it was just, it was just, you know, kind of bureaucratic stupidity. If they told me what they needed to know on the phone I would have, it would have jogged my memory, and I was about this. I do not remember her name anymore. I said I had a conver- [his phone rings] Hold one second. Okay. IG: 28:34 Okay. AG: 28:35 That was my-my cell phone. My cell phone goes through my computer, so. IG: 28:44 I see, I see, okay, so, um, how do you think- AG: 28:51 I tried to close because it is if I, if I disconnect by accident, I will call you back. IG: 28:58 All right, that is fine, sure. That is fine, but you still have a little bit of time. AG: 29:04 Yeah, we are good. Okay, good. I close it and you are still there. IG: 29:08 Okay, very good. So how do you think your classmates remember you, if they were to tell me, those-those who remember, and those, for example, those you worked with on the radio? How would they describe you? AG: 29:28 Not sure I think they would describe me as that is hard to put-put into words that they were required to describe me as, you know, nice guy, not a, not a not a great student, not somebody who was, who was very involved and in any kind of political activity or any kind of activism, somebody who was, you know, we were kind of just there and good friend, but I have not really kept in touch with anybody from-from Binghamton at all. IG: 30:13 You have not? AG: 30:15 I have not. IG: 30:15 You have not. AG: 30:18 I tend not to do that. I tend to move on from one-one experience to the next very small circle of friends from, you know, different-different stages of my life. What is, what is amusing at-at this point is I have recently, become through Facebook, got connected with a group of friends from high school. I have, I have a distant cousin who I have been friendly with, and I was on his Facebook page, and there was a friend of his who looked familiar. His name was familiar. And I wrote him. I said, "Are you the same David who went to Clinton High School?" And he said, "Yes," and we had put together. There are five, five couples who all went to high school together, except my cousin. My cousin did not go to high school with me, but he met many of my high school friends at City College, where he went. So we now have a group of five couples who we meet every three or four months, and we go out to dinner, to a theater, to a Broadway production. And that predates. That is certainly from, from that era. IG: 31:46 That is, that is very nice. I wonder if I know of other couples who from Binghamton who see each other annually. They have reunions in different parts of the Northeast. So just tell me a little bit about campus life. You know, the majority of students were like you from New York City or Long Island. And then there were some students from upstate New York. Did you notice differences between these you know, city-city folk and townies, they were called, I think. AG: 32:33 I remember one, one of my one of my friends, was he was convinced that Jews had horns. That is how he grew up and-and his exposure to a lot of the New York students and a lot of the Jewish students was-was a kind of an eye opener for him. So yeah, we found a lot of, a lot of the upstate students a little bit provincial when I- before I got there, and my-my housing preferences, I put down that I did not want to.- I would prefer to room with somebody outside the area that came from. And I did that, and I had a roommate. We did not get to be good friends. And then through the radio station, I met some other people, and eventually roamed with them. And they were from -from the New York area, also from Westchester. And then eventually, my senior year, over junior, senior year, I got a single. IG: 33:38 So do you- did your impression of students from upstate- I mean, you mentioned that there was a cultural difference between New Yorkers and, you know, upstate New Yorkers. Did you, did your impression of upstate New Yorkers change over the time that you were at Harpur? AG: 34:05 I got friendly with people. I, yeah, there was one I- we exchanged visits during vacation. So a number of people come home to New York with me and show them New York. I went to their homes and- IG: 34:19 Where? In Binghamton or? AG: 34:22 No, upstate, and that now these were not people who these were all people within the dorms, I said, people who were local. I see. And we, you know, we realized we had more in common than we had differences, as is typical when you put different cultural groups together. IG: 34:45 Yes-yes, I agree. So tell me a little bit about more about your free time on campus. Did you spend it all at the radio station? Or did you hang out with your friends in the dorm? Or, how did you spend- AG: 35:04 Partially, even the radio station, mostly hanging out with friends in the dorm, doing, you know, going to movies. I- nothing really stands out. IG: 35:16 Yeah. AG: 35:17 As-as you know, spectacular. We- it was, it was very much a lot of my-my friends were pre-med and pre law, as I was, and we did a lot of it was, there was a lot of- and we mostly were, were studious, and that was a reputation of the institution in those days, and I still, I think it is still the reputation of the institution that it is, it is certainly not a party school. It was very much a place where people paid attention to their studies, spent time in the library, and yet spent some time, you know, dating and going on dates and going out to dinner and campus events when there were performances, but that was pretty much it. IG: 36:10 So, how did you get around? Did somebody have a car, or did you take a bus? AG: 36:18 [inaudible] The- you know, the under the underclass years there were, there was transportation into town. Some people have had cars. There was a, there was a shopping mall within walking distance, right- next to campus. So wanted to go shopping. A good while they would walk. Some people had cars. We would go. There was a I am sure it is still there. I think it is still there. We did not go out with some of us went out to bars. We were not heavy drinkers. We were more when we went out. It was more to a place called Pat Mitchell's, which was an ice cream place. We would go out and we would, we would have ice cream, and there were weekend nights, sometimes we would go out drinking and in the bars. In those days, drinking age in New York was 18, so it was much easier to-to go out and socialize that way. IG: 37:32 I wanted to ask, were there women who worked on the radio? AG: 37:38 Yes-yes. IG: 37:40 Yes. Um, were- you know, do you think that there were different expectations for men than there were for women, or did the women who worked on the radio serious about what they were doing and maybe thinking of a career in radio? AG: 38:03 I do not really think, except for one person who became a journalist, I really do not think that anybody expected to make a career out of this, certainly not the people that I was close to. And no, I do not believe that the expectations for the women were any different for the men. Also the women who wanted to be on air. Broadcasters certainly had the opportunity to do that, and it may have been a question that I was not astute enough for any kind of discrimination as far as that was concerned. But I certainly the women who were interested in doing whatever they wanted to do on that particular extracurricular activity had ample opportunity to do it, and did and did so. IG: 38:58 it is interesting. So you know what looking back, what lessons do you think you learned from this time, including your unfortunate brush with this false accusation? What lessons did you learn from this time in your life? I mean, there are probably several, you know, because you spoke about, you know, the impact that the false accusation had on you. But what would you say? What did, what did this experience give you? AG: 39:38 The college experience? IG: 39:39 Yes. IG: 39:40 Or? IG: 39:41 Yeah, in a broader sense, not just a degree. AG: 39:44 It certainly was-was for the first time, I was away from home, and I was determined I had the same, I had the same offer that many of my friends did if I went. To City College, my parents would buy me a car. I said, keep your car. You know, the Holocaust families were very overprotective, and there was a friend of mine later said, you know somebody I had met. Much later, he said he went, he went swimming and got wet, off to your ankles. They sent out the lifeguards, my parents, my parents drove me up and we were 50 miles outside of Binghamton. She said, "You know, you can still go to City College." IG: 40:42 They were more comfortable with that alternative. AG: 40:45 Yeah. The irony was that I had a friend who did exactly that and was killed in an automobile accident while he was, while he was in it was going to City College. So you never know. You just never know. IG: 40:58 You really never know. AG: 40:59 It gives you, yeah, I think, I think that whole experience was, I did not come out. You know, everybody comes out of those experiences different. But I, you know, it was an experience. I-I-I, when I was in graduate school, I look back and I said, it is you really need to apply yourself a little bit more to your studies than you did when you were in school. It was a question of trying to find out, find my find-find out who I was as an individual. I got part of the way there, but [crosstalk] IG: 41:34 What did you, yeah, find out about yourself as an individual from that short period for from those three years? AG: 41:45 that I was, that I was very much a solitary kind of individual. I know that when my father was a road salesman, and he would leave on Monday, he still had institutional textiles, and he had a fairly broad territory, which included the Adirondacks and his- many times during school vacations. When I was in high school, our vacation where we would go along with him, we go up to-to the resort areas, and sometimes he took me along by myself. And I remember thinking to myself, What a horrible, lonely existence this is. And later on in life, I find, I found, I learned the difference between loneliness and solitude. And although, you know, I married, I have a family, but there are, there are many times, right- My wife is still working, and I cherish the time that-that I have to myself. You know, it is kind of a transition when you retire, and I was worried about filling the time that I am reading. One of the things that-that happened in Binghamton was that that I was not very much of a reader. I had difficulty in talking to people about current events other than what was going on classes. I remember I once went gone with a friend to his home, and they had-had a very animated political discussion, and I had really had nothing to say. I was very quiet, and I went to a counselor when I was in law school, and he looked at me, and I feel I often have nothing to offer intellectually. And he said, "Well, do you read?" I said, "Well, you know, do subscribe to magazines?" And at that time, I started reading for pleasure and for information. And I am, sometimes I am reading two, three books at the same time, thanks to my Kindle switching back and forth, and I very much value the time that I have to myself. You know, I did not realize that when I was at school as an undergraduate, but certainly developed that I was I always you know, found myself many times. I found myself doing things by myself, and realized later on that, well, you know, you-you, you know how to be your own best company. And that is, that is a very, very valuable lesson to learn. IG: 44:38 It is a valuable a lesson to learn. I am just wondering you spoke. [crosstalk] Yeah. AG: 44:46 I kind of came late to things throughout my whole life. My daughter was born. I was 49 when I had, when I had, she was an only child. I think that makes you better parent, certainly a mature-mature parents, because you are done building your career and-and have a wonderful relationship with her now. So it is, it is better late than never [inaudible] IG: 45:15 And just-just remind us, well for the record, your career was in development, or um- AG: 45:24 I started out as a New York City school teacher. IG: 45:27 Yes. AG: 45:28 And as I am fond of saying, it was the second to the last place in the world, I wanted to be, as I told you earlier. IG: 45:35 Yes. AG: 45:36 Vietnam was last, and I had a- was in the school, and one of my colleagues in the school got a job at the Central Headquarters of the New York City school system. And he was in the federal- he got a job in the federal aid office. And at that time, I was taking a course at NYU and Intergovernmental Relations. And I said to him, you know, I am taking a course in that sounds really interesting. And if anything opens up in that office, give me a call. I would be interested in pursuing it. And he did, and I went down there. It was a everybody said, "Do not do it. It is a dead-end job." That office was a, I do not, we do not have enough time to explain the city school system to you at that time, but it was a liaison. It was, it was a, really, a glorified clerk of being a liaison between the city school district and the, and the State Education Department for the compensatory education program. So, we reviewed the-the entitlement program applications that went up, they were not competitive then, and if there were anything, if there was anything in that application that the state wanted modified, we acted as liaison. That- I did that for about a year and a half, which brought us to 1975 and there was a- our suit, our superintendent. She was an old-line superintendent, and we were bringing in $400 million in competitive compensatory education at that time in the 1970s. IG: 47:25 That is huge. Yeah. AG: 47:28 And they- there was a there was a recognition that that as a central entity, as a school district, we were not making a great enough effort to go after some of the smaller competitive programs, some of the small competitive grant programs. And they wanted a wanted to form a unit which was sort of like an in-house consultant, grants consultant unit. There were 32 districts and a number of central divisions, and we were there to help them mount competitive applications get more money, as a matter of fact, that is what my dissertation turned out to be. And in terms of competitive- how the competitive grant system works, but in 1975 there was a devastating fiscal crisis in New York City. There was a hiring freeze. Nobody could hire anybody, and so this superintendent formed this little unit, and anybody who could make a paragraph out of two sentences got drafted. We were very small. We started out and we were, we were unsuccessful for three years, and only because she was unwilling to admit that she had made an error, that she let us continue. And then once we-we had some breakthrough, very significant grants that-that-that that unit took off, and we had a wonderful reputation, we- IG: 49:06 State from the state of New York grants or? AG: 49:06 Federal government, state in New York. And then later on, I had, I became the director of that unit, and we started reaching out. We had a new superintendent who new chancellor, who opened up. It was like opening up the windows and waiting the air in. And we started going after private foundation money. And I initiated and spearheaded that drive. I remember I was I got a meeting at it with a foundation executive, and she looked at me and she said, "We would never fund you. I was just so astonished that there was an actual human being who called me up." But before we got done, we were bringing in money from foundations. And I- as I was finishing my doctorate, I was interested in moving on into higher-higher I guess that that was perhaps a holdover from my experience at Binghamton, because all I ever wanted to do in my career was go back and be on a college campus, which I started it I started at Hofstra University, and I have been in and out of education, higher education, elementary and secondary, initially higher education. I had a few jobs in healthcare, long term care, and major medical centers. My foray into healthcare was-was everybody has at least one train wreck in their career. That was mine, and then I wound up back in, back at higher ed. IG: 49:09 Okay, that is, that is very interesting. So, I am just, you know, I am latching on to something that you said in the past, that you, you know, you are a child of Holocaust survivors. Did you connect with any other students at Harpur College who had the same background? AG: 49:09 I did not. IG: 49:09 You did not. You did not find anyone who was like that. AG: 49:09 Most of my friends were very much American. I grew up in a community where everybody was of that background. IG: 50:15 Yeah. AG: 50:15 I was 10 years old. My parents moved to the Bronx and to Riverdale, and I had, a I had one friend that I gravitated to who happened to live in my building, and his parents also- There was a number of families in that building with the same background, but at Binghamton, I did not connect with anybody, nor did I know of anybody who had that background, IG: 52:09 Because they were not first generation like you were. You are first generation American. AG: 52:16 I am. IG: 52:17 Yeah. AG: 52:17 I am. And most of the people that I knew there were not. IG: 52:21 Yeah, that is, that is very interesting. AG: 52:24 American first-first in my family, to go to college. IG: 52:28 Yeah. AG: 52:28 Yeah, immediate family. IG: 52:31 That is remarkable. What you know- what were the most important lessons you-you have learned in life that you would like to share with future Binghamton students who are listening to this recording years from now, what advice do you have to give to them. AG: 53:05 I think part of it is to is to be serious about your studies, but have fun while you are doing it. Again, I kind of relived part of my-my undergraduate experience, and also had experiences that I did not have through my daughter in her and her undergraduate time. Spent a lot of time visiting with her and going to, going to, certainly the first apparent Parents Weekend was-was a highlight, which my parents never did. They dropped me off and dropped me off, and anytime I came home, I made my own arrangements, whereas my daughter we were, we drove up, picked her. She had a car all four years, but there was never enough room in her car for her to come home by herself. So we were back and forth many times. And I cherish that, because I loved it. Matter of fact, when she went to school, I saw the piles building I left, I left home to go to Binghamton with a suitcase. As I saw her collecting the material that she was going to cut the mattress covers the all of the stuff and the bins and things, I said to my wife, I am buying a plane ticket. She said, ridiculous. I said, “I see what you are putting together. I am not fitting into this car. Oh, do not be ridiculous. That is, that is stupid. It is a waste of money.” I said “I bought a plane ticket,” and sure enough, there was. There was no room for me in this car. So I flew up to Portland Maine and rented a car because they drove up, we met and then. My daughter kept the car that she was driving up there and we drove back. But it was, it is just such a totally different experience today. So, somebody who graduated in 1967 I do not even know what I what advice I would have given to my daughter. IG: 55:14 I see, but I mean, you did give advice. Study very hard. Have fun. Yeah, I think, I think those lessons hold true from generation to generation. AG: 55:27 She was always-always a kind of a student who was intrinsically motivated. This is a kid who she graduated, summa cum laude, phi, beta, kappa, Colby College. That is quite an achievement. And as-as self-possessed a person at her age as I never was, and I look at her in awe, because the what she knows about herself and her, her, her goals and her-her ability to pursue those goals. It was not anything that I never picked that up until much, much, much later. IG: 56:11 Well, you had a different upbringing than your daughter. That is very different. AG: 56:16 I never wanted to be the parent my parents were. Yeah, as I think most people would admit to- I do not think you know, there is an old saying, first to become yourself, and then you become your parents. IG: 56:32 Yes-yes, oh, I have never heard that expression that is very good. Yeah. AG: 56:38 When you think about it, it is alarmingly accurate. IG: 56:44 So in which way have you become like your parents? AG: 56:49 I am more overprotective than I should be, and my wife counter balances that, because she is not. She is much more, you know, permissive in terms of what my daughter so there was good balance. You know, we try to keep her safe, but, but she has to learn her-her own. She has to find her own way in life, which-which my parents kind of never got. So she fell in love with Maine, and she decided that all she had, the credentials she could have, she could have pretty much done anything she wanted. And one of the, one of the, one of the things that she did she was on, she was a psychology major. She was on her way to applying for PhD in clinical psych. And I knew, I know the first one of the things that she did at Colby. Colby has what they call Jan plan. You have you take a full course in-in a January semester. You can either make your own class, you can take a standard course. So her first course in January, she became an EMT, and she eventually was one of the one among the leaders of the EMT squad on campus. She was an EMT on the COVID campus for her entire years, and she was going to go and the be a clinical psychologist and get a PhD. I always knew from watching her that she-she was the kind of person who needed to be on front lines, kind of a first responder, not really an academic, and she had her mentor arranged for an internship for her summers. And she had an internship. She went the first summer, and then the second summer, she came home. The middle of it, she said, I do not want to do this seriously my life, which is kind of a wonderful outcome for an internship, because she could have been down the road to a PhD, and then found out she did not really want to. I want to have that kind of an experience. IG: 59:02 She sounds like a girl who knows her mind. AG: 59:05 And she is now at the University of New England. She is pursuing a nursing degree. As I said, we were tearing her hair out because we thought she should go to medical school. She says, I do not want anything to do with being a doctor. That is not what I want. I want to be a nurse practitioner. So, she is in now, in a program, a 16-month program for students who already have a bachelor's in something else, and she will come out with a BSN and an RN, and then pursue a career in as a nurse practitioner. IG: 59:37 You know that Binghamton is starting up a PhD program in nursing. AG: 59:45 I can see her eventually going through. I will mention it to her. IG: 59:53 Yeah. Mention it. I think that this program is beginning in 2020. Third speaker 59:57 Yeah. And I think Binghamton has a. Very strong nursing program. AG: 1:00:02 Yeah, she did not want to follow in my footsteps, IG: 1:00:11 As most children do not. So, yeah. AG: 1:00:14 One of the more amusing things that we when we went to the Colby Information Center session, there was a very engaging student who presented, and he said, "My- I am a legacy student. My parents met at Colby." And he said, "First visit, I hated it. I wanted nothing to do with it, and they prevailed on me to come back." And he said, "My parents realized that they were giving me their experience, and when they went, what they did was they let me explore the campus on my own, and then I enrolled, and I loved it." So, it is again, it is question she-she eventually may seek that out, but, but she does not want to come back to New York. She loves Maine, and that was her criteria for-for a college campus, it had to be rural, it had to be a self-contained campus. It had to be a small liberal arts school need to be [inaudible] all of which she got. AG: 1:00:16 But it is close enough to New York. AG: 1:01:26 Yeah, and none of which I knew about myself at that time. IG: 1:01:30 Do you have any concluding remarks for us? AG: 1:01:35 In terms of-of what you are doing with-with the (19)60s? I do not know I would be interested in seeing how typical my experience is. And I guess some of these interviews, or all these interviews, are going to be available online some point. So, I would hope that you would send out the links for that so that we could, we could watch each other and well, I have not kept in touch with any of my classmates from those days, a few of them on LinkedIn and Facebook, perhaps, but I would like to see what their responses are. IG: 1:02:14 Right. Because in conducting these interviews, there are commonalities, you know, but-but I think that every-every experience is very different. So I think that you will be very gratified to hear the interviews of your classmates. AG: 1:02:33 At Binghamton--you cannot even it is so different that you cannot even call it the same school. Those of us who were there when I was this was an incipient, brand-new school. It was, and I was among, certainly, probably among the first students, first years where it was, where moved from Triple Cities College to the current campus at that time, it was, again, as I said, very small. So if you look at it today, there is, there is no comparison. It is, it is, it is like comparing something like Colby to Penn State, just a totally different [crosstalk]. Harpur College was a small liberal arts institution. Was nothing else. There was no graduate school. There was there was, it was, you know, it was Harpur College. That only happened after I was after I graduated. So that to make comparisons with those with the students of my day and the students who are there today, it is just too different a place. IG: 1:03:42 Well, that is why I think it is- yes, and you experienced the (19)60s, which students today are not. So, it was really, you were a pioneer in-in terms of, you know, being a one, one of the-the first graduating years from this institution. But you were also living in very different times, you know. And that is why we are conducting these interviews, and that is why we are creating this center, virtual center. AG: 1:04:18 If I had to do it over again, I would never, I would not go back to Binghamton. AG: 1:04:22 You would not? AG: 1:04:24 I would have not given my background. I found it; it was- IG: 1:04:28 Where would you go? AG: 1:04:30 -it was, and what I know about myself today. IG: 1:04:35 Yes, AG: 1:04:35 That I did not. I probably would have gone to school in Boston in a more urban environment Boston. And I did not have grades to get into, into the Ivy Leagues, but certainly a Boston University, a school that had much more of-of a social component that Harpur College that I would, I think that probably would have brought me out a little bit more than-than the experiences that I had where there was the sameness of the students in terms of their-their academic aspirations, there was that certainly was partying, but the social component was weak, and I probably could have benefited from a school that had a had a more structured, more extensive social component, not that I wanted to be in a fraternity or anything which was, which was not my thing. I do not know my daughter also we-we went to on our visits. We were we drove up to Colgate. She was one of the schools. She first thing you see when you drive to Colgate is Fraternity Row. And she looked at us, get me out of here. IG: 1:05:45 Yeah. AG: 1:05:46 The reason she chose Colby is because I had eliminated Greek life many years ago. IG: 1:05:58 Right. Well, that is all very interesting, and it is- we will be in touch with you and let you know about the progress of the website of the center and when your interviews will be digitized and put up online. AG: 1:06:19 Where are you at the beginning, the middle, the end. Terms of- IG: 1:06:23 We are I think we think- Third speaker 1:06:25 You are the ninth, the ninth informant that we interviewed so far. IG: 1:06:32 -to do another eight. It is just, Aynur, and me, we are going to do another eight in the next couple of weeks. So, I think that, you know, as soon as-as we are going along, we are going to put up these interviews, each are an hour an hour half long. AG: 1:06:52 Let me know as I sent you an email. I think coming from a development office, as-as given all my years of experience in development, I think that was a deterrent. I almost deleted your message. IG: 1:07:04 Well, what could I do? I mean, I was given this assignment, given my reporting background, and should I write, perhaps, that I am a reporter for, I was a reporter for Fortune Magazine, but I am not anymore. AG: 1:07:18 But I think, I think coming from a development office gives the wrong impression. IG: 1:07:23 I will let the Dean know. I will let the Dean know. I am also, you know, I will. I will, you know, I think that you have a very valid point. IG: 1:07:32 Okay, that-that is a very that is very good advice. I do not know how much I can do about it, but I agree with you. AG: 1:07:32 I have been a VET Development Professional one way or another my entire career, and maybe I picked up on it because, okay, it is coming from a development office. They want to this is a pre solicitation gimmick, and I really do not want any part of it. And then I researched the- I looked up the center online. I saw that it was a legitimate thing, connected with you on LinkedIn. I think yours, your email signature. It should not be coming from a development officer or just my two cents. AG: 1:07:38 Well, you have another title, and that is= AG: 1:07:53 Not here, not here, it is not here. I can just leave it out, maybe the Development Office part, AG: 1:08:25 but yeah, because it is not relevant, [crosstalk] development officer, IG: 1:08:32 Maybe it could come from you. All right, well, we will figure it out, but you have certainly given us food for thought, and thank you so much for a great interview. IG: 1:08:43 All right, thank you. I appreciate you reaching out. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Andrew Grant Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Hebrew Union College; Harpur College – Alumni living in Suffolk County, Long Island Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grant, Andrew ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Andrew Grant is a retired Assistant VP for Institutional Advancement at Hebrew Union College in NYC. He worked as a disc jockey at WHRW-FM. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Andrew Grant.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-08-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 69:46 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/507981549ed7975e64bb7f91d5fb440c.mp3 5544de15fc704988f13922a3eb9e5574 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fa0c602798e8bea6ea32b5c66446a70a.jpg 6825097cbca85f77b53c009858618a06 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed M. David Graubard Year of Graduation 1966 Biographical Text David was an attorney at Kera & Graubard, specializing in bankruptcy, insolvency, Chapter 11, and debtor and creditor rights. He grew up in Monticello, New York. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: David Graubard Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 19 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) DG: 00:01 And now it is recording. IG: 00:02 Oh, it is recording. Fantastic-fantastic. DG: 00:05 Okay. IG: 00:07 So finally, sorry about that. [laughs] Okay, so um, for the purposes of this interview um, please state your name, your age and where we are and what we are doing. DG: 00:23 Sure. I am David Graubard, 73 years old, in my office at 7118 Main Street in Flushing, New York. 11367, we are here to work on an all an oral history of the 1960s. IG: 00:38 Yes. DG: 00:40 Right? IG: 00:40 Yes. DG: 00:41 Okay. IG: 00:41 Okay, so please tell me, David, where you grew up? Where were you born? DG: 00:47 Born and grew up in Monticello, New York. IG: 00:48 Oh. Um- DG: 00:49 Halfway between Binghamton and New York. IG: 00:54 Yes, yes. I know where it is exactly. So, who were your parents are they- DG: 01:01 My parents were- IG: 01:02 Where did they come from? DG: 01:04 They- my- they were both- I went to the same high school that my both my parents went to. IG: 01:09 Oh, really in Monticello? DG: 01:10 In Monticello. Most of them were raised in Monticello. Cannot say born, but they were raised in months in the Monticello area. My mother was raised in the formative years in White Lake, New York, my father from Monticello itself. IG: 01:25 And were they, you know, second, first, third generation Americans? DG: 01:33 My father was a second generation American. Actually, were first generation American. He was born in the Bronx. My grandparents were born overseas. My mother was actually born overseas. She came very as a one-year-old. IG: 01:48 May I ask, Eastern Europe, or Germany or DG: 01:52 Eastern Europe. My mother was born in a place called Barandovich, which was in Poland, White Russia depends upon the year. IG: 02:00 Right. DG: 02:00 And my father's family came from Romania. IG: 02:06 Very interesting. So um, did your parents go to college? DG: 02:13 No. IG: 02:13 What was their what was their occupation? DG: 02:16 My father was a salesman. He grew up- interesting. He wanted to go to college to become an accountant. And my grandfather, may he rest in peace, said, you have the family business to go into, which was a wholesale food line and in Monticello. And that is what he did. And my mother was a homemaker and a good one at that, and also bookkeeper in my father's business. And she came, later on, she came a dental assistant, and she works- IG: 02:42 Also, in Monticello. They stayed there? DG: 02:43 Oh, yeah. IG: 02:44 Okay, so were- what were their expectations for you about going on to- DG: 02:51 They very much wanted. Heard their children to go to college. An older brother who went to Ithaca college on a dramatic scholarship. He did not graduate, but he got into the computer business way back when, when it was in the early (19)60s, when the late (19)60s, when it was first coming into vogue. He worked for Bank of America. And my sister graduated, graduated from [inaudible] college. And my uncle, may he rest in peace, was a lawyer, and they wanted to- I wanted to be a lawyer like he was. IG: 03:22 The uncle was in Monticello or in New York City? DG: 03:25 No-no, in New York City. IG: 03:27 So, you had frequent contact with New York City. DG: 03:32 Oh, yeah, yes. IG: 03:32 So, education was valued in your family. DG: 03:36 Very much so. IG: 03:37 So, what were your reasons for going to Harpur rather than to City College or, you know, NYU- DG: 03:44 Uh, we had Harpur was I got a state scholarship, which covered the tuition. It was, you know, within a two-hour drive from my home in Monticello. That was it, basically. IG: 03:58 But why Harpur College rather than Albany or Buffalo? DG: 04:03 Harpur has a very, very good reputation, excellent reputation, and guys always fooled around you. If you slur that, people think you said Harvard, but [crosstalk] [laughter] IG: 04:18 [crosstalk] That is very funny. [crosstalk] DG: 04:21 Yes, that was really funny. IG: 04:24 So-so it had- and when did you graduate? Just for the purpose of the interview. DG: 04:29 1966. IG: 04:31 In 1966. So, the reputation of the College was established in the early (19)60s, or was it just- DG: 04:40 Very much so. IG: 04:41 Very much so. DG: 04:42 It was, it was, it was a pearl of the state system. IG: 04:44 And what was it known for Harpur College, before you went there? What-what-what-what did people say about it? It was a pearl of the state system. DG: 04:55 You got a good education. IG: 04:57 You got a good education. Did any of your friends from Monticello go there? Or did anybody that you know- DG: 05:04 Yes. IG: 05:05 -from New York City go there? DG: 05:06 Yes. IG: 05:06 So, you had friends who went there. DG: 05:07 Yes. I had a classmate, Robert Ethel, who went there. We roomed together- IG: 05:11 Uh huh. DG: 05:11 -for a year. IG: 05:12 from Monticello. DG: 05:13 Yes. IG: 05:13 Okay, good. So, when you first- DG: 05:15 [crosstalk] three rooms, we were two of the three. IG: 05:18 Oh. So-so when you first arrived to Binghamton, what was your impression that was there such a dramatic difference between Monticello and Binghamton? DG: 05:30 Well, now this, Binghamton was a city. Was still small townish. IG: 05:34 Yeah. DG: 05:35 But the college itself was off, you know, was investor offset, not offset, set off the highway, and it was a unit by itself. It was not within the city like you had NYU in the city. Was part of the New York City. IG: 05:49 Yes. DG: 05:49 This was a totally, total unit by itself. IG: 05:52 Yeah. DG: 05:53 That was a beautiful place. IG: 05:55 It was a beautiful place. Um, and so maybe, what was your first impression when you arrived there? Do you remember what it looked like to you? DG: 06:06 Remember it looked like. Yes. IG: 06:08 Yeah. So, describe that a little bit to us. DG: 06:10 [inaudible] came in there was the-the quad that they called it because they had the student center was in one place, and the science of science labs were off to the science was off to the right, as you looked at it. And then they had the- there was a there was a roadway that the left were all the dormitories and the luncheon hall. That is what I remember about the quad. And it had that walkway on top then, until you came down into the quad. DG: 06:44 So, it struck you as a beautiful place. DG: 06:49 Yes, physically, very beautiful. IG: 06:52 So um, just tell us you know about your early experience of the academics there. Did that make an impression on you? DG: 07:05 I think academics were very good. IG: 07:07 Very good. So, tell us a little bit more elaborate on that. What classes do you remember? Um- DG: 07:14 I can tell you. I will give you one, one thing that stands out in my mind. Okay, we took Spanish. Those who took- I took Spanish were the ones Spanish I and II, and there was a fellow there. I will not use a name, but he had, apparently, this is his third or fourth time taking this Spanish class, and he needed it to graduate. And he was a senior. IG: 07:35 Yeah. DG: 07:36 -and the professor, doctor, if I remember his name. I could picture his face. Just cannot remember his name. He had--called Rahman this on this, this senior, and when he-he we saw the test booklet of this particular student on this, on his desk after the after the exams, and it was a D with 19 minuses. And I do not think he counted minuses. I think he just gave him a D and then put the string of minuses so they could graduate. IG: 08:14 So, it was a generous place. DG: 08:16 Yeah, it was. IG: 08:17 It was academically a generous place. But it was- DG: 08:19 I mean, that is it was this particular thing, you know, I remember we had Melvin Shefttz. We had- was a very-very tough-tough history teacher, but it was very good. IG: 08:31 American history? DG: 08:33 No, world history. IG: 08:34 World history. DG: 08:35 World history and he gave me back a paper, and I remember it was I am sure it was a B minus or B plus. But he said to me, the comment was, you handled some very difficult material quite well, something along those lines. Think I still have that paper. I kept two or three to my papers that were interesting. IG: 08:58 Was that on your freshman or what- DG: 09:00 Freshman year. IG: 09:01 Freshman year, so you were encouraged in your academic. DG: 09:05 Yes, yeah. IG: 09:05 Did you know what you wanted to study? DG: 09:09 Yeah, I know I wanted to study--I loved American history. IG: 09:12 Yes. DG: 09:12 And I came to the point where I had to decide whether to do graduate work in American history or go to law school. I chose going to law school, which I probably regretted many years later. I really loved American history and, but I thought, but then, after my first year, they went to the trimester system. So, we were- IG: 09:30 After your first year. DG: 09:31 Yeah, after first year. So, we were a little thrown off on calendar wise, but nevertheless, we completed our academic studies within the trimester system. IG: 09:42 So um, just tell me a little- let us stay on the topic of academics and just tell us more about the faculty that made an impression on you, on your fellow classmates. DG: 09:55 Well, for American history, we had, we had one professor who took several times, whose name escapes me now, but yeah, that was the days of when you did your papers. He insisted that footnotes at the bottom of each page, and you had [inaudible] and any student because I typed the type, typing, I got back a paper from him in colonial history, and there was an A and some of the papers were wrinkled, and the only comment he made was, my apologies for the tea stains on your paper. IG: 10:28 Oh. DG: 10:28 I still have that one. IG: 10:31 Yeah, you still have that one. DG: 10:32 I still have that one. And, but I had a friend who was American, who was a history who was a history major, and he managed to avoid taking that professor, I remember, but it was interesting because he did. He- because that professor took- did the period histories mainly colonial and-and civil war, but he [inaudible] IG: 10:56 So, did you find the classes stimulating? DG: 11:01 Yes, yeah [crosstalk] IG: 11:02 You have discussions? DG: 11:03 I think the class were very good. And I remember it took- I had for history [inaudible] I had Professor, Colonel House [Albert House]. I remember that-that. And one thing he taught me, he says, he says, 'When you are middle of a project and you have to go to supper, or you are going to lunch or you have to do something else," he says, "Do not say, in your mind, wait until I get the end of something. Stop where you are. It will be much easier to pick it up and remember where you are we were from that point and go forward if you middle of something." And I have used that- I have used that quite-quite successfully in my professional career. You do legal research when they would have to go somewhere, stop in the middle of something. It is easier to pick up. IG: 11:44 It is easier to pick up than- DG: 11:46 Start and then stop and going to [crosstalk] IG: 11:48 It down to some symbol conclusion, or? DG: 11:52 Let us say, at the end attempt in the middle of a case, reading something. And instead of going to the end of the case, if I had to, have to go somewhere. I will stop there. I will come back, come back to it. I am coming back in the middle of something. It is much easier to pick up than they have said, "Oh, at the end of that case-" [crosstalk] IG: 12:08 How do you remember that where you left off? [crosstalk] Okay, that is very easy. Um, so describe your classmates. Where do you think that the majority, I know that the majority were from Long Island and New York City, and so who were, who were your friends at Harpur? Did you gravitate more to the people from New York City or from upstate? Did it make a difference? DG: 12:39 Well, I was, I was a member of the Adelphi men's club, so I had friends there. IG: 12:44 Yeah. DG: 12:44 Where I would say, mostly from the city, but there were from upstate, upstate as well. Not as many, but. IG: 12:52 Not as many. Do you, do you- did you feel any cultural differences because you were really straddling [crosstalk] DG: 13:01 Guys told me, "Graubard, we really consider you [inaudible] city guy." IG: 13:05 Yeah, because- DG: 13:07 I spent a lot of time in the city. DG: 13:09 My grandparents lived in Crown Heights, spent a lot of time as children. IG: 13:12 Exactly. IG: 13:12 So-so you were really comfortable in both cultures. DG: 13:16 Yeah. IG: 13:16 Do you feel that there were cultural differences between the- you know, students from the New York metro area versus the upstate students? DG: 13:27 [crosstalk] differences there were. IG: 13:29 And were these differences bridged, you know and- DG: 13:32 Yeah, I think there were guys who, guys who started, you know, going-going-going out with girls who had-had friends in, in the social clubs there. IG: 13:41 Yeah. DG: 13:42 That the-the Upstate downstate did not. IG: 13:44 Right. So, what did you do in this Adelphi club? What did you- DG: 13:48 It is just a matter of guys, yeah, they had social clubs there because they did not allow fraternities- IG: 13:55 Yeah. DG: 13:55 So, they allowed social clubs. So, it was- IG: 14:01 What did you do? DG: 14:03 I just had friends there. But not that- to me it was not a big deal. IG: 14:07 It was not a big deal. Where did you meet? At the Student Union? DG: 14:11 In the Student Union. IG: 14:14 So, who were your, you know this, this was a time of the, you know, the beginning of great change in America. And, you know, how did you really, how alive were you to the events outside of [crosstalk] So tell us about that. DG: 14:38 Well, being of draft age. It was Vietnam War. I remember at one point they offered they offered some in the geology department. They offered a course, a new course, aerial photography, which nobody wanted to take. They wanted to have it on their record- the draft board. IG: 14:57 That is very interesting. DG: 14:58 Yeah, I remember it, specifically. IG: 15:01 So, did you feel that the faculty sort of encouraged, or did it protect its students? Do you feel against being drafted to- DG: 15:13 I think there was one professor I remember who was willing to give, who's suddenly became more lenient with giving out A's. I think I remember that. IG: 15:26 Yeah. DG: 15:26 One-one particular problem, his name. I remember who he was, but I remember some discussion on that-that he was and that was to keep-keep students in school. IG: 15:37 Yeah, so-so. Oh, um, you know, so-so there was this encourage, there was, you know, a desire to protect, maybe this [crosstalk] DG: 15:50 I think [crosstalk] from that one professor. IG: 15:53 From that one professor. Did you feel that a lot of your classmates had the intention of going on with their study to avoid the war or? DG: 16:04 No-no, I think it was an academic- it was a state school was an academic place, so that most people intended to go on to further professional studies. IG: 16:13 Anyway. DG: 16:14 Yeah. IG: 16:14 Anyway. DG: 16:15 Yes. IG: 16:17 So, when you discuss the Vietnam War with your friends, what kind of things did you say, apart from being afraid of- DG: 16:24 You know, the most thing, it is terrible- the most thing I can remember is, you know, guys making comments like, "Okay, so I will take my master’s at Ho Chi Minh, university," or "University of Phnom Penh, " "Are you going next year to University of Phnom Penh? It became, not the joke, but- IG: 16:46 Yeah. DG: 16:47 -it was one way to alleviate the seriousness of the situation. IG: 16:51 What other ways did you alleviate the seriousness of the situation? DG: 16:54 I do not think there was any other way. I mean, I guess I was a little had a little less tension because my where I lived, there were a lot of guys who came out of high school and volunteered so that the quotas and my draft board were-were-were-were were filled up. They protected me a little bit more. IG: 17:17 Yeah. So, you know, but you do not remember any political discussions. Did you- do you remember whether, you know- DG: 17:29 Oh, listen, there were, there were a lot of, there was a lot, there were a lot of peaceniks, yeah, there were a lot of peaceniks on the campus. A lot of the peaceniks on the campus, you know, and they, and they had made banners, and they had sat ins and demonstrations. IG: 17:43 Tell me a little bit about that. DG: 17:45 Against-against the war. IG: 17:47 Yeah. So where did they sit in and do they go? DG: 17:51 They would have us not, not to obstruct. But you know, they were demonstration in around the campus. IG: 17:57 Around the campus, around the campus, and was this covered by the student papers or by local papers? DG: 18:06 Yeah-yeah. and what about the [crosstalk] of this covered by students, certainly by student papers. IG: 18:10 Did anybody march on Washington or- DG: 18:13 I think there were people. IG: 18:15 There were. So, did you participate in any of this? DG: 18:19 No. IG: 18:21 No. Why not? DG: 18:24 Because I was crazy. It was not for the war, but it certainly was. I thought it was something that unfortunately had to be done. It is unfortunate we had to get that with the way we got into it, with the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, and- IG: 18:35 Right. DG: 18:36 They expanded it. DG: 18:37 And that it turned to be a bog. It was me, a bogged down affair. IG: 18:37 Right. DG: 18:42 But it was, it was a sad situation, but, yeah, I guess I believed in the government and-and that is the thing that would was not from Harpur, but the thing that affected me most was at home. There was a fellow at the end of my block who wins in the army, and he came back, who was a changed person, and he would not go anywhere where his back was not against the wall. Or if he went into the restaurant, he made sure that he sat in a booth with his back again, and he was always protecting his back. IG: 19:15 You knew him after the war. Or when did he come back? DG: 19:19 He was younger than me, but I saw, I saw. IG: 19:22 What, when? During your college years. DG: 19:24 Yeah-yeah. IG: 19:25 What kind of impact did that have on you? DG: 19:28 It just brought home the reality of the-the unfortunate consequences of the war. IG: 19:40 Of the war. But it did not change your mind about America's involvement in the war. DG: 19:44 Not too much. I thought it was, I feel it was sad the way they ended, you know, that they could not come out, that they got bogged down and they could not it was, it was, it was, to me, it ended to be a useless event. IG: 19:58 A useless war. DG: 20:00 A useless war. IG: 20:01 But when did you realize that it was a useless? DG: 20:04 Halfway through. IG: 20:05 Halfway through. So, what year? Tell- remind me, were you in college or? DG: 20:12 I might have been in law school. IG: 20:13 In law school. Where did you go to law school? DG: 20:16 George Washington University Law school. IG: 20:18 So, and was that right after graduating from Harpur? DG: 20:23 Yes. IG: 20:24 So, what- how did you decide on that? Did you have encouragement from your direction- from your professors, or who advised you? DG: 20:33 No-no, I- we had to go to GW or? IG: 20:33 Yeah. DG: 20:35 Well, I applied to, I think eight law schools, got into four of them. I thought GW was the best. IG: 20:42 I see. I see. Did you have guidance from your professors or not much? DG: 20:47 I do not think much. IG: 20:53 What other courses did you take? You taught you took history courses, you know- DG: 20:59 Social science. IG: 20:59 -social studies, science. DG: 21:03 The one required science course, and then never walked into the science building after that. IG: 21:12 Any literature or language courses? DG: 21:15 English, literature, I remember a language of Spanish. I took two courses in Spanish. IG: 21:20 Do you feel that- DG: 21:21 And also, they introduced- Dr. Levin started a Hebrew course and Arabic course. It took Hebrew courses. IG: 21:29 When was it- there was a Semitic languages department. DG: 21:34 He started it. IG: 21:35 He started it. Uh- DG: 21:38 A language lab that they tested. And [crosstalk] IG: 21:44 I remember language lab. DG: 21:45 -tested with Dr. Levin. We took it seriously. Everyone else, it was a joke. IG: 21:51 Do you feel that you got a well-rounded education, or was there something lacking? DG: 21:56 No well rounded. IG: 21:59 How did that influence the future of your life, of your intellectual career? DG: 22:05 It broadened my horizons on how to approach things. IG: 22:13 Okay, so you know, how do you think- well, how do you think that Harper prepared you for your future career? DG: 22:22 A good academic basis. IG: 22:25 Uh, huh. Okay. So, we talked a little bit about the Vietnam War, and we talked a little bit about your involvement. You were not involved in any student activism? DG: 22:41 No. IG: 22:41 Really. Um, but around you, was there anything- what you know were, was there student activism about, you know, the civil rights movement? That was- DG: 22:53 Yeah, they, yeah, they had a [crosstalk] The Civil Rights was big at the time, and there was I mean, there were people who were active, who were active in the civil rights movement, I think. IG: 23:10 And how did that manifest? Was it on campus, or did they go to Washington? DG: 23:15 Both-both. I think, I think some guys might have gotten involved in the South. I am not sure. But, I mean, they had clubs, they had groups like that, that were [crosstalk] IG: 23:17 Was this sort of, you know, part of the conversation even, did it reach your circles? DG: 23:31 I do not think so. IG: 23:32 No, not so much. Were there any students of, you know, who were not from New York City and essentially white middle class, you know or upstate. Were there any people, any students of color or international? DG: 23:48 Yes. IG: 23:49 At the time? DG: 23:50 Yes. IG: 23:50 You remember? DG: 23:52 I remember one fellow from Nairobi, [hos phone rings] and he lost his-his hat in the winter. [he is talking on the phone] Hello. Yeah, okay, I am in the meeting now on and then have to go Lauren. So, I will be back at about 11:45 but then I have [inaudible] with my grandson, so I will have to speak to you about, you know, 12:30 or so. Okay, all right, okay, thanks. Bye. Bye. IG: 24:27 Okay-okay, so we were talking about a student from Nairobi. DG: 24:33 Yes, he was a short fellow, and he lost his-his hat. He had a hat with flaps, and I remember he drew a picture of it; he put his name underneath it, and he put lost, and he put it on the board. IG: 24:43 Was it ever found? DG: 24:48 So, I remember seeing it on the board IG: 24:51 Was-was, you know, you-you had traveled to New York City a lot. So, you know, seeing people of international, of different backgrounds [crosstalk] DG: 25:01 -was that much so also. IG: 25:03 You had that in Monticello, because Monticello was a summer resort, right? DG: 25:08 Summer resort, a lot of transients came through the and that was they opened up the racetrack, also [crosstalk] IG: 25:14 I see, I see. So-so that was not- um, but there were not any international or students of, you know, color, any Hispanic students that you remember? DG: 25:28 [inaudible] IG: 25:29 Yeah, no-no, not really. DG: 25:32 Hispanic? IG: 25:33 Hispanic, Black. DG: 25:37 Black, a few, a few. IG: 25:38 A few. DG: 25:38 Yeah. IG: 25:39 Yeah. DG: 25:40 But it is [inaudible] than I do not remember. IG: 25:43 No, okay, so did they, did they- did you have, you know, occasions to sort of mix as a larger group, or did you just stay in the class, you know. DG: 25:57 In the classes, and in the and in the student-student lounge, the cafeteria, not the dining hall, but the cafeteria in the in the Student Union. People are always getting together. IG: 26:12 How about, you know, women's rights, that probably was too early, [crosstalk] right? Do you remember that expectations for women at Harpur were different than they were for men? Were um- DG: 26:31 Nothing, no, nothing. I recall. IG: 26:32 Not that they were, you know, treated differently, necessarily, but were the women on campus? Did they aspire to the same sort of, you know, careers that- DG: 26:43 I think there was [inaudible]. I think there was no difference. IG: 26:46 No difference. DG: 26:47 There were a lot, here were a lot of women there. They were aspiring to the same thing the men were [crosstalk] IG: 26:47 They wanted to become lawyer [crosstalk] DG: 26:49 -education, yes, [inaudible] education. And professionals, yeah. IG: 26:57 And professionals. Okay, so, you know, tell us a little bit about your free time, free time on campus was- do you think that Harpur was a party school? DG: 27:11 I would not say it was a party- no, not a party school. I mean, there were, you know, the guys in geology, there was always a trip, a field trip. IG: 27:23 Right. DG: 27:24 You know and that was a that was always a big joke, because, you know, guys were buying beer, and that was always looked at as a as a fun thing to do, as opposed to an educational trip. IG: 27:33 Right. But you did not, you know, I mean, how did you spend your time socializing? You know, were there- did you just keep to your group of boys? DG: 27:45 They had- there were social events on campus. IG: 27:49 Like what? Describe for- DG: 27:52 I think, full weekend, spring weekend, [crosstalk] IG: 27:55 Yeah. So, what happened? I, you know, tell us. DG: 27:59 I was it was not I was not a big social guy. IG: 28:02 You were not a big- so you never attended any social events. DG: 28:05 I cannot remember most of what they were. But things changed at the end too. Trimester had a big effect on some of this stuff, I thin., IG: 28:13 Tell us about that. DG: 28:14 Well, through the calendars of Harpur were off the calendars of other college., IG: 28:19 Right. DG: 28:20 So, people who would want to go somewhere else, you know, find it difficult to synchronize, except-except for Thanksgiving. And for instance, we have right and then we weekend, those were the same all over. IG: 28:32 So-so these the trimester had a disruptive effect on your social life. DG: 28:37 I mean, when you if you had to interact with people, friends at other schools, in that in that manner. IG: 28:42 I see, I see. DG: 28:43 Internally, it was, you know, there was no difference. IG: 28:46 So, you know, after studying, did you spend time in your dorm room, or did you go to student union? Where would you spend your free time, even in your first year, you know. DG: 29:02 [inaudible] mostly just, I think, just staying the room sang about hanging around the student union. IG: 29:08 Did you date girls? DG: 29:10 Yes. IG: 29:10 Yeah. So, tell us, tell us, where would you go on these dates? Did you have a car? DG: 29:15 No, oh, I not, no, not the first year. Wait a minute. No, not the first I had the older Amber. I do not remember if I had that the first year. IG: 29:30 Well, maybe the second year you had a car. So-so, okay, so where would you go with your dates? DG: 29:37 There were not a lot of them. IG: 29:38 Yeah. laughs] DG: 29:39 For sure. That is for sure. There were not a lot of them. There were movies in Binghamton, Vestal. IG: 29:46 Yeah. So, you would go to a movie. Were there any cafeterias or restaurants that you would go to afterwards? Just to the movies? DG: 29:54 I did not do a lot of dating there. Anything was mostly geared towards, if the- towards events on campus [crosstalk] weekend. IG: 30:03 So, there were events on campus for students, like the whole, you know, I mean, but that is just once a year, right? DG: 30:10 Yeah, yeah. IG: 30:15 Were you were- what about the curfews? You know, a lot It has been said about the curfews for girls. DG: 30:23 You tell people, these days, students these days, you know, tell, I have. Tell my-my granddaughter is of college age now, and we talked about my-my wife tells she went to Stonehill College. And every single school in the country had curfews for women. You know, you said that you said it to girls now, and they look like you are crazy. IG: 30:46 Yeah, and the curfews were earlier than curfews for- DG: 30:50 Yeah, curfews were, I do not know if the men had curfews. I think that was when upon the contention. But I think the girl, I think the girls like the curfews. I really do, I think, because, again, it may, it gave them an excuse for being, being. IG: 31:10 They liked it. DG: 31:11 I think the girls liked it. IG: 31:16 That is very interesting, actually. DG: 31:18 During the week there was, I forgot what was, it was eight o'clock in the weekend, I think was 11 o'clock, maybe midnight. IG: 31:26 Would you go? How frequently did you go home during the semester? DG: 31:31 I went home for the Jewish holidays. I went home for if something happened. It was occurred in the family, a family event, it was easy to get home. So of course, before all the regular recognized weekend, holiday period., IG: 31:47 Right. Did you have anything like Hillel on campus? DG: 31:51 There was, there was a Hillel, yes, there was a Hillel. And I was a member of the Hillel and that was not, there was not a religious aspect to it. There was more social at that point. IG: 32:08 So, you know, where during the trimester period you had, you know, big breaks in the summertime, did you work? DG: 32:18 Yes. IG: 32:19 Did you pay for your school. DG: 32:21 Yes. IG: 32:21 Yourself. That is very impressive. So, what type of jobs did you have during this summer? And where were these jobs? DG: 32:28 Well, for two summers, I worked, I drove a bread truck for stomas bread, which is a bread company in the city, and in the summer there a lot of their customer base moved to the mountains. So, they had five routes in the mountains of two summers, I drove there. Oh, and then they worked in the men's store in Monticello, Jack brands men. So, he had the, he had the men's store there, and then the men's store at the Concord Hotel. Oh, so I worked in the two summers. I worked at the in the men's store in Monticello. IG: 33:10 Have you stayed in touch with any of your classmates from Harpur? DG: 33:17 Yes, one, particularly Martin Kera and you know, I became, became law partners after several years. IG: 33:22 Oh, wow. DG: 33:23 And to this day, to this day, we are in touch because we still have a common business interest. IG: 33:30 That is right, that is right. I think I reached out to him as well. So, were there any faculty that you stayed in touch with? IG: 33:40 How do you think your fellow classmates would remember you from that period? What would they how would they describe you? DG: 33:40 No. DG: 33:54 The Upstate Jewish boy, I guess you know. IG: 34:02 What does that mean, what does that mean? DG: 34:06 I was upstate, you know, came from Monticello. A lot of them knew Monticello had been up there in the mountains for the summers, worked in the summers. IG: 34:15 Okay, so that is one description. But would they have said that you are industrious, that you are funny, that you are the class clown. What? How [crosstalk] DG: 34:23 I think it is just maybe a nice guy. IG: 34:25 A nice guy. DG: 34:26 Always help, trying to help people. IG: 34:31 Any-any stories about how you help your classmates? DG: 34:33 One-one in particular, I do remember, and I tell my wife [crosstalk] there were guys who took, who would not take a Tuesday night class. In this in the in the spring, in the autumn semester, because they did not want that. They wanted to leave early for Thanksgiving vacation. I had a Tuesday night class, and I had an old Rambler, 1962 Rambler had to push button drive. And this was my-my, probably my sophomore year, I think. And you know these people around who would give rides home, and it was a bitterly-bitterly cold night, really cold. There was snow on the ground, and it was very-very cold by wind chill was probably close to zero, very cool. And I- the girl Beth, I forgot her last names. [inaudible] cut the back road. She was [inaudible] arriving. The [inaudible] was feeling a ride. We had a full car, I think Irene and a young couple with a baby who were going to Newburgh, so the car was full, and it was freezing cold, and it took a long time I let the car warm up even before I would let that baby in the car. So, it took a while, but we packed in. We all came to my house, and then they made calls as to where there were no cell phones in those days, as to people really picked them up at particular times. And my parents made sure they had something hot to drink, something to eat, until they all got picked up from where we were. IG: 34:34 That is very nice. So, um- DG: 35:20 Oh, one other time. IG: 35:48 Yes please. DG: 35:51 [crosstalk] Ronald Nathan, he was okay, and he called me in a panic that he-he had to do, finish off his social- a paper for a course, and he let it go to the last minute. "What should he do?" So, I typed with, if he, if he, if he wrote it out, could I type it right? I said, "I will be over in the minute." I was over this room with my typewriter. I sat down, I looked him and said, "Talk." He talked his paper. I said, “What are you doing?” I said, “You talk. I am going to type right." We did his paper that night, the whole time we finished, but he talked, and I typed. We got it done. IG: 36:43 That is fantastic. And you spend the whole night? DG: 36:46 Probably most of the night, doing that. IG: 36:48 until [crosstalk] DG: 36:50 Three in the ming. IG: 36:51 "That is great. Did you help organize his thinking? DG: 36:55 No. I just- IG: 36:55 You just typed. DG: 36:56 I just typed. IG: 36:58 Well, that is, that is still, that is a big help. What did you think? What lessons did you learn from this time in your life at Harpur College? I mean, you were at a very formative period, you know, then you stepped out into the adult world in the- in law school, I would think, in a different state and but so how did this form you? What were some of the lessons that you learned from this period? DG: 37:29 Well, that there are it just it built on what I learned in Monticello that went to public high school, that there were a lot of different people this world that have views and thoughts different than you, and you have to get along with them, and that you can build on your own strengths. I was on the swimming team, and I was not a stupid swimmer, and I remember judge-judge, trying to think the first, the first, the freshman year the coach, Dennis. Last name was Dennis, and he said, "You want to learn to dive?" I said, "Okay," so do it. I was not great at anything, but so he would try and say, when you, when you, when you went to a swimming meet, you had five required dives and then one optional. And they took the optional by putting the five categories in a hat, and they picked one out, and that became the optional dive. So, he, you know, we were not a big athletic school, and we did not go the big athletic schools. St Bonaventure was about the biggest name around from that we went. And he would always say, talk to the other coach and say, you know, you know, "Can we fix the optical dive at the at the easy one going forward?" So, some judges said, "Fine," it was okay. And I remember, one said "No." And I remember St. Bonaventure, the swimming pool was in, was in a downstairs area where the ceiling was, I think, lower than this. When you came off the board, you had to push your hands off the top in order to do certain dives. It was crazy, but-but I remember one particular time he said to me, he says, "David. "He said, "I am putting you in the individual medley." I said, "You know, I cannot." He said, "There were," he said "They are only put there were usually four swimmers, two from each side, and three got points. The fourth one got nothing. He said, "They only have one swimmer in the I am individual middling." He says, "All you have to do is finish and you get third place." He was, "Just finished," and it was, I remember, it was butter, back, breast, free. That was how they ran the butterfly stroke, breaststroke, the backstroke. And I could not do the backstroke to save myself, but I did, and it was, it was fun, but I remember, I swear I must have finished about three minutes after everybody, the second guy. IG: 39:54 So, what did that particular episode teach you? Did- DG: 40:01 Just perseverance. IG: 40:02 Perseverance-perseverance. So you know, and you know, for posterity, for the you know, future students and others listening-listening to these tapes, what do you think what-what were the most important lessons that you have learned in your life that you would like to share with these students who are considering Binghamton or who are at Binghamton? And maybe- DG: 40:37 I take a very different- I bring a very different perspective. I came from a very strong Jewish background, and I leaned more towards orthodoxy halfway through and I was going to transfer out, and things did not work. It just did not. And so that the last two years at Harpur, I restrict myself to a lot of things in within the Jewish religion that [inaudible] accomplish, such as not going out Friday night. I had a connection with Rabbi Bernard Brazil, who was the author the rabbi orthodox jewel in Binghamton. I told her son, he got me teach a Sunday school class there for a couple of years, which I did, and-and I connect with some of the people in the neighborhood who were, who were helpful to me. And so, I had a different ask- a different view of college the last two years that a lot most students that did not have. IG: 41:38 But that is wonderful. I mean, you really had a very full life and maybe a more adult life because you were so involved in the community- DG: 41:51 Yeah-yeah, I was. IG: 41:52 -in-in really ministering to this community. Could you talk a little bit more about this? Because this is very unusual, I think. DG: 42:01 Well, it became my own personal journey back to orthodox roots. And so, you know, I did not go out Friday night. I was a dorm counselor. If I had to be on duty on Friday night, I sat and I tried not to do things that would infringe. I restricted my diet there, even in the mess hall, very and supplemented it with my own food for cautious reasons. And just geared myself to going to guiding my life in the future based upon these religious attendance that became more important to me as I went along. IG: 42:46 And what- why do you think that that happened midway during your undergraduate career? What happened in your thinking? DG: 42:55 My brother got married, and he was not very you know, he did not have any religious influence. Had very little religious influence in his life. And I said to myself, I went to, went to the wedding in the Bronx. He said, "David, you can get married one day also." And, you know, thinking of my grandparents and their- my grandfather, Rabbi the [inaudible], who's a, I mean, who that is a ritual slaughter of animals. And I said, “You know what? They are really right. That is where I have to go,” and I did. IG: 43:31 So that is a very- so-so what? What would you tell these young people listening to your interview. What-what is important about that experience? DG: 43:45 Experience is that for me, as an Orthodox Jew religion, became a very paramount issue, and had to deal with it in the time constraints. I had a Harpur, and I did to the best-best I could. And then once I left and went to law school, I was able to broaden my religious life because I had a lot more freedom as to, as to where I was living, what I was eating, what I was doing. IG: 44:14 So do you think that the message might be, you know, sort of stick to your guns and do what you feel is important. DG: 44:22 That is if you want, if you want to generate, if you want to generalize it, yes, that would be a-a generalized comment. IG: 44:31 Where did you meet your wife? DG: 44:34 In synagogue in Washington, DC. IG: 44:36 Okay, that it was not at Harpur. DG: 44:38 Right. IG: 44:40 Have any of your children or grandchildren considered Harp- Binghamton? DG: 44:48 No, not in their scope. IG: 44:52 No, because it is- they are a different generation. DG: 44:54 Yeah, my three girls, my three girls, two went Stonehill College. One went to Queens. College. All went to seminary in Israel for a year. IG: 45:02 Oh, wow. IG: 45:02 Any of them- DG: 45:04 They are all married, and they are all really- IG: 45:07 Any rabbis in your family? DG: 45:10 I have two sons and [inaudible] the rabbi. IG: 45:12 Oh, wow-wow. DG: 45:12 Yeah, but-but they are not pulpit robbers. They are education rabbis. One is, one is head of a school in California, Los Angeles, the other is Dean of Students at Magen and David [Magen David Yeshivah School], which is a Sephardic school in Brooklyn. IG: 45:26 Wow. Well, do you have this is- it is, it is really a very interesting interview, and I think that we have gotten a very different perspective on Harpur College, you know, experience during the (19)60s, and anything that I have heard from other- DG: 45:48 I will tell you the-the one of the greatest things about Harpur College was not the college itself but was it stepping on the coat cement ceremony. IG: 45:58 Tell us about that [laughs] DG: 45:59 Because it was just wonderful. They had and Richie Walters, you know, and I, you know, to get up there to understand how they did things. Richie got up and he said, you know, we have this, whatever was that great Greek-Greek poet Testiclēs, and that is how that kind of stuff that they were. But it was, it was, it was a fun ceremony. It was the official end of winter, the beginning of spring. They stepped on the one with the coat they brought up ceremoniously up the stairs outside the Student Union, and they put it down. And Kestrel came over, and he stood up, you guys, very seriously, stepped on the coat. You look back and-and, yeah, people were laughing. It was fun, but it was nice. It was, it was a good hearted, fun thing to do that did not step on anyone's toes. You know, it was not, was not race oriented, it was not religion oriented. It was just something that someone thought of and carried out. IG: 46:56 And kind of brought unity to [crosstalk] DG: 47:01 Oh, everybody liked it. I you know the faculty too, though everyone, there was not anyone who did not like it. IG: 47:08 Yeah. Are there any concluding remarks that you have? Do you want to share anything? DG: 47:18 I can only say that there were turbulent times in the (19)60s. And, you know, we, as far as I know, we all survived. There were guys at Harpur, and I look back now, and there are people who took different directions, because some kind, some guy, some guys could handle being away, and some guys could not. Some guys could handle a breakup with a girl more than others. And was, there were turbulent times, you know, in the whole country, and Harpur was, was part of it. IG: 47:54 But just-just you mentioned something that, you know, some, some guys could handle breakups and these difficulties, others could not. You know, were there any support systems for this outside of, you know, maybe that that is why, you- DG: 48:15 I say that because I remember one particular guy, and I think he eventually, I do not think he graduated. I think he had difficult times. Eventually left school. I remember one situation, and he was having a very difficult time, because he was going out with a girl, and something happened, they broke up and-and he took a very-very difficult, very poorly. But, you know, there was no, was no, you know, support system. You know, some would say, of course, see the school psychologist. I guess there were some people. I do not think they had a system at that point, but there were people who felt closer to me, to some professors that they could talk to on a friendly basis, as opposed to academic basis. IG: 49:04 I see, I see. And maybe they did not have, they did not think of, you know, religion as a support system. Maybe. So- I David, unless you have some, some other gem that you want to share with us. I thank you so much- DG: 49:24 One thing I do remember Professor, I think his name was Roma. He had a baby face-face, yeah. And he was like a philosophy- philosophy professor, and he looked so young. And one thing he said in class was, you know there was some guys who did something about running, I do not know a woman's garment at the flagpole, but not on, not on campus. I think off campus somewhere. And he said, "Now, if someone like me did it, you know, they throw the book on them, but if the students do it is a prank." IG: 49:53 [laughs] DG: 49:53 Yeah. So, I will just leave my closing remarks are. Uh, make the best of your, of your, of your, of your education. Live with your convictions and go forward. IG: 50:08 Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with M. David Graubard Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Graubard, M. David ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource David was an attorney at Kera & Graubard, specializing in bankruptcy, insolvency, Chapter 11, and debtor and creditor rights. He grew up in Monticello, New York. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context David Graubard.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-02-19 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 50:12 minutes