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He talks about his family life, working on different dairy farms, his long hours and grueling nature of his work, as well as the economic fluctuations in the production and sale of dairy products.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1977-11-22,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 17",,"Caganek, Anna","Dryja, Walter",,"
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Walter Dryja
Interviewed by: Anna Caganek
Date of interview: 22 November 1977
Anna: I am Anna Caganek: the interviewer, talking to Walter Dryja of 22 Arthur Street, Binghamton, New York, on November 22, 1977. Walter, tell me about your life.
Walter: This is the biography of Walter Dryja, who was brought into this world the ninth day of December many moons ago by my dear mother, Sophie, and father, John Dryja, to this address: 525 Washington Ave, Glendale, Carnegie, PA. My father and mother came from the part of Poland that was occupied by Austria-Hungary, ruled at the time by Franz Josef. My mother had three girls and four boys, that was the size of my family. I was the youngest. My father came alone to Baltimore, Maryland, in the first part of the 19th century [sic], looking for work. He lived in Baltimore, Maryland, only a few weeks, he got word from his friends that Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, had better working conditions and more pay. He came to Pittsburgh, PA, got a job at the Bell Coal Company mining soft coal, earned money and saved until he had enough to send to his wife. So, she took the three children with her, and one died in Poland, and one daughter she left in Poland with a good friend because there was not enough money for a ticket on the ship. My father got settled in PA, later sent money to Poland to bring the daughter that was left with the friends in Poland. My father worked very hard mining coal, saved his earnings, which at that time was paid in gold, silver, nickel and copper—no paper money. Pay was two times a month, about $22, all depended how many tons of coal a person could load by hand shovel into the cars. My father saved enough money to purchase a building lot, hired a man to build a two-family home. While all this was going on, my father increased the size of his family by having three boys, one every two years, and I was the ‘last of the Mohicans.’ By now, my oldest sister was about age sixteen, she had a friend of a family as a boyfriend. They got married and moved to Chicago, Illinois, and they raised a family of seven girls and one boy. They made their home in Chicago. The next to the oldest sister was Mary, got a job in a pottery abelline factory in Carnegie, PA, and then she decided to go to Chicago to live with Veronica, the oldest sister. Nora, the youngest of the girls, got married, age twenty, Syracuse, NY, and married Peter Ryznar—he got a job in a shoe repair shop—and I, Walter, was born December 9th. I attended a Catholic Parochial school in Glendale, PA, with two of my brothers, Stanley and Joseph. John was the oldest of the four boys. He was born in Poland, he worked in the coal mines, later got in Superior Steel Company, Carnegie, PA. Stanley graduated from the eighth grade grammar school, got a job as a clerk in Hardy’s Drug Store in Carnegie, PA.
The first World War started, brother John quit his job at the steel company and volunteered into the Army, was trained as engineer and shipped to France. Stanley got typhoid fever and died at the age of sixteen in a Pittsburgh Hospital. About six months later, Father died and is buried in Glendale, PA, cemetery, next to Stanley, his son. I was about eleven years of age at that time, I watched or attended the neighbor's three cows during vacation for a dollar a week. At that time people were allowed to have cows in the villages and see milk to neighbors. There was no electric street lights, only gaslights. Each day, in the evening, a constable would come on foot with a small ladder and light the gaslights and in the morning come to put out the lights. All the homes and buildings had gaslights, no electricity, only streetcars were electric, and some of the automobiles were electric and gasoline and a few steam cars. People that were in a higher bracket owned horses and buggies, sleighs for local transportations.
After died, Mother sold the home in Glendale, came with Joseph, my brother, to Binghamton to live with my sister. They had moved from Syracuse a few years ago, which was in Johnson City, NY, before that it was Lestershire. Endicott Johnson Shoe Company was good to these workers, provided low-cost housing, gave bonuses, provided medical services, legal services, recreation and other benefits to their workers. When my mother and a brother, Joe, came, Joe was about sixteen years, got a job in Burbank Foundry, Binghamton, NY. I attended Catholic Parochial School. I was chosen to play in school in vaudeville plays. About six months, my mother died. I was twelve years old, and my sister and her husband, Peter Ryznar, worked in E.J. shoe factory company. They had a son and two daughters. I was older than they were but we grew up. I helped as much, as much as I could with the housework and made myself useful.
The first World War ended and my brother, John, that enlisted in the Army at Glendale, PA, at the start of the War, came to Binghamton and lived with us. Got work in E.J. shoe factory, he was restless, talked my sister and her husband, Peter, to purchase a dairy farm where the Broome County Airport is situated at the present time. He quit his E.J. shoe shop but Peter did not quit. I graduated from the eighth grade grammar school and we moved to the farm. My brother Joe stayed in the city, got work at E.J., and about two years of dairy farming, my brother John gave up farming, leaving me, age eighteen, on the farm, stranded on the farm. With my sister and her husband and three children children, no one wanted to work on the farm at that time, that's it.
On the north side of Prospect Street near border of Johnson City and Binghamton is the Town of Dickinson line. The contour of the land is the base of Mount Prospect, on top is the BOCES. This is where the St. Stanislaus Kostka Church and school was started by Rev. Jolak. This land was purchased by two spinsters, Ann and Mary McNamara. They lived in a nice white farm homestead on Prospect Street, and it was lined with huge maple trees on both sides of the street in front of their home, the street looked like a tunnel with dirt road, mud in the spring and in the autumn of the year. A family by the name of Okonovsy had a bakery nearby on Glenwood Ave, Binghamton, NY. They migrated from Fulton, NY. They were Polish descent, had a large family. They baked the finest and most tastiest rye bread. They were friends of my brother-in-law, Peter, Mary, and my sister Nora. On Downs Ave., where the electric trolley had a franchise, came to a dead end at the boundary of Johnson City, Port Dickinson and Binghamton. A family of Polish descent by the name of Huzar, they also came from Fulton, NY, and friends of Peter purchased a creamery, which at that time the milk had to be delivered no later than six o'clock in the morning to the consumer because there were no refrigerators, only iceboxes, and the consumer wanted fresh milk on the breakfast tables, it so they could use it before going to work. This was the year of 1922—there was no truck deliveries, only horse and wagon, Spaulding Bakeries, Cutler Ice Co., and all creameries had stables to house the horses.
As I come back to where I started to tell you about, the Huzar family purchased a creamery from Mr. Lott on Downs Ave., Binghamton. I, Walter Dryja, was a very young boy after my mother died. I started to help Tom Huzar, who was the son of Mr. Huzar—he was about age sixteen—to load 12 quarts bottles to a case of milk in the wagon. About two a.m. in the morning, deliver the milk to the consumer, this was year of 1922. There was no under-the-railroad passes, we had to go over the railroad tracks. There were safety or stop gates to stop traffic across the tracks. When a passenger or freight train was coming, it happened one early morning, Tom and I were driving a gray mare horse and wagon with a load of milk across Jarvis Street, Binghamton, NY. We got halfway between the two railroad, the Erie and Lackawanna, the watchman at the tower lowered the stop gates, so we’re caught between the train and the train came roaring through. Tom jumped out of the wagon, grabbed the horse by the bridle, and I stayed in the wagon holding the reins. The horse reared up on his hind legs, picking Tom off the ground as the train went by. The tower watchman raised, raised the top gates. Tom got in the wagon and no one was hurt. We went about the business of delivering the milk. Do not ask me if I was scared, I was too naive to know any better. This and a few other less exciting incidents happened in my life.
After my dear mother went to meet her master—this also happened before I graduated from St. Stanislaus Kostka School and before I went to the farm to help my sister—on the farm Peter had about fourteen milk cows, a few heifers, calves and a sire, three horses which we used on the farm to work, also for transportation to deliver milk every morning to a creamery, about four miles each way, winter and summer, rain or shine. I recall when the snow was three or four feet deep on the ground, snowdrifts about six feet deep, even higher, on the way to the creamery with twenty cans of raw milk in forty quart cans on a big bobsleigh pulled by the team of horses that I was driving, the horse lost his footing on the hard snow-packed road and fell in the soft snow, deep, he could not reach the ground with his feet, I had to shovel him out out of the snowdrift and help him to get back on the hard snow-beaten path and proceed with the delivery of the load of milk, which I collected from some of the neighboring dairy farms. I got paid twenty cents for a hundred pounds of milk, which was about two pounds of milk to one quart of milk. This was supposed to be delivered to the creamery in Maine, NY, three miles away before nine o'clock every morning. Every day in the year, rain or shine. This happened sometime in the winter morning, I cannot recall in my memory the day or year as I was returning from the creamery. After I delivered the milk the sky was bright, the sun was shining, it gradually began to get dark, the roosters began to crow, this was about ten o'clock in the morning, this was the total eclipse of the sun. As we struggled on this farm to make a living, my brother in law, Peter Ryznar, owner of this 130-acre farm where Broome County Airport's north runway is laid and operated today, the year 1977. At the year 1922 it was dirt road, mud in the spring and fall of the year, and passable roads in the winter, big snowdrifts, the wind never stopped blowing. At Mt. Ettrick the air is clear and very cold in the winter, fifteen degrees colder at the top of Ettrick than it is in the city of Binghamton. On this farm there was no luxuries such as electric, indoor toilets or bathrooms, no heating system in the homes, except a huge cast-iron stove in the central part of the house to burn wood, which was dragged and hauled from the woods by horses during the autumn or winter seasons and cut into twelve- or fourteen-inch pieces so they would fit in the stove. The only running water was, as I can remember, is when we needed water in the house to take a bath or for cooking, and I would run to the well and pump it out of the well into a pail or bucket and run with it to the house, is what you can call—running water.
Anna: Did you ever melt the snow?
Walter: No, we never melted snow, only we used it for batteries in the truck and used it for washing—it was soft water we stored—it in an olden wooden barrel—fifty-gallon barrels, it saved soap—it was soft water. We had a small pond on the farm, stocked it with bullheads—fish in it. They grew fast because it was a lot of food such as frogs in the winter, the neighbors and I would cut the ice off this pond with large hand ice saws. We hauled these blocks of ice, from 175 to 125 pounds each, to our houses—ice houses packed in the sawdust. The sawdust around these outside walls, twelve to eighteen inches thick so the ice would not melt away in the summer. We used the ice to cool the milk we got from the cows at the evening milking, and it had to be cooled overnight so it would not sour before it was delivered to the creamery in the next morning. We also had a treat once in a while on Sunday, we made some homemade ice cream with a make-it-yourself kit—ice cream was made by cranking a handle like hell, until your throat went dry, and you would get homemade ice cream. What kind of a flavor would like, try and get it. We only have vanilla today while it lasts. Well my brother-in-law saved a few dollars working in EJ shoe factory in the summer, when the roads were passable he paid $20 a week to the neighbor had a 1924 Chevrolet four-cylinder car to drive Peter and the other neighbors to work in EJ shoe factory. In the winter when the roads got impassable, Peter got room and board in the city and only came to the farm Saturday and Sunday. I, Walter, had to hitch up the old dobbin and go for Peter and take him back to the city on Sunday after milking the cows. It was about eight miles one way by horse and sleigh. It took one-and-a-half hours one way. There was several instances I can remember after taking Peter to the city and return to the farm, half frozen, my hands and fingers were so numb that I could hardly unbuckle the harness from the horses. Peter purchased a Ford, a truck tractor, one of the horses got sick, we were told by the veterinarian to destroy or shoot the horse. Peter purchased a new one, Ford Model T truck, $195 at that time, which could not pull its own weight up a dirt road on a hill where we lived on the farm, this was in the autumn of the year. Barns were destroyed by fire, Peter sold all the cows and horses, and I stayed with Peter and helped with disposal of the cattle. Then I found a job on a farm on Route 12, near Greene, NY—the Golden Gurnsey farm, owned by lawyer John Marcey, who practiced law from the sixth floor of the Security Building in Binghamton, NY, and he resided in the winter on Davis Street in Binghamton, and summer at the farm he owned and had Mr. Tyler managing it for him.
Anna: Did you ever do anything to enjoy yourself?
Walter: Yes. Work from sunrise to sunset.
Anna: Did you ever go, go to Ross Park?
Walter: Never had time.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Michael J. Hanifin
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 13 December 1977
Dan: This is Dan O’Neil: interviewer. And I am interviewing Michael J. Hanifin. 95 Murray St, Binghamton, New York. Mike is a former police chief here in the city of Binghamton. The date is December 13, 1977. Mike, being a retired police chief in the City of Binghamton, tell me about your life and experiences in the community.
Michael: Well, I was born on Pine St. At the age of one year, my parents moved to Liberty St, where I lived and went to the Robinson St school. I graduated from the Robinson St school. The high school, but did not go all, went to work instead at Crandall Stone's on Court St at the salary of $4.50 a week. I got a raise, I believe at $6.00, before I left there and went to Stickley’s and Grant Chair Factory, where I took a job as stock clerk and in a little over a year I was superintendent of the finishing department. Well I was making $1500 a year then, straight time, but the police department was the only place where they had a pension system, and thinking of the old days, I decided to take the examination. I turned the job down three times because I'd have to take a cut in pay of about 50%, and also work seven days a week. So in 1917 I decided to apply and was appointed. I worked six years as a patrolman on duty and two years on a motorcycle when I was appointed Sergeant, and a couple of years later, I was appointed Captain, and, ah… the title was changed to Assistant Chief at a later date, and then finally in 1942 I was appointed Chief of Police. In regard to my appointments, the examinations I took, I passed first for Detective, first for Sergeant, first on the list for Lieutenant, and first for Captain, and of course the only three jobs I was appointed to was Sergeant and Captain. The wages of a patrolman was $65.00 a month, and they deducted, ah, your pension payments from that amount. You had to work a year in order to get two weeks vacation. In other words, I worked 17 months before I was entitled to pick a vacation due to the old men picking first. That, as I say was, in 17 months that was the first night I had off duty—all night work and the only assistance you had was a police whistle. If you got in trouble you had to handle it yourself—no police boxes, no radios or any of those things they have today. The most important case that I was involved up—involved in, rather—was a holdup of the streetcar place on the upper State Street, when three holdup men with guns held up the place around 3 o'clock in the morning and got part of the day’s receipts. So I was just getting through duty when the call came in and, ah…I, ah, ordered them to get four or five officers from their posts and I—one officer earlier had seen a car parked on ah Thorpe Street, so with the other officers I went down there and I went to the door. There was a light in the house, it was a twin house and I ah rapped the door. The lady came and she said, I asked her, ""Is there any trouble around here?” and she said she was setting up with a sick baby, but she insisted on me going up and see the baby, which I did. I asked her who lived in the other part of the house and I believe it was her father-in-law. So then we started knocking at that door—it was a bitter cold morning, December 15th and, ah, I had the officers placed around the house at important points, and all of a sudden I went out to see if there was any footmarks in the snow leading into the house, when all the lights in the house went on and the officers called from the side to me to come around, and as I was going by, I saw they had one of the holdup men in the kitchen sitting in the chair and the officer standing over him with a gun, and then I went around to the rear and here's two more of the holdup men coming out of the cellar with their hands over their heads. So, in my opinion, it was a very very important arrest.
There was two unsolved holdups in the city—the Kroehler Manufacturing payroll and the Gotham Shoe payroll—and out of that arrest, they cleaned up both of those incidents, and, ah, while the officers was going by the cellar window where the men were, they saw them with their guns in their hands and they hid three revolvers in the cellar. So I took them to the Police Station, where I questioned them at some length and they, they sent two officers over to search the cellar and they found the three guns up in the rafters of the cellar, and, ah, in the course was locked up and, ah, District Attorney Gold was elected to take office the first of the month, and that morning he started on December 15th, and the men were tried and convicted, but in my opinion in my 46 years in the Police Department and I believe in the history of the Police Department, that was probably one of the most important arrests that was ever made.
Dan: That was in what year, Mike?
Michael: 1933, I believe.
Dan: 1933.
Michael: Yeah.
Dan: That was…you mentioned a streetcar holdup.
Michael: Yeah, but the streetcar—they had the day’s receipts.
Dan: Oh, I see.
Michael: That, the barns up there and they, you know where the streetcars started out, where State Street, up there by the garbage place, and, ah, as I say, in those days when I was appointed Sergeant, there was no such things as cars like they have today. The Sergeant went to work at eleven thirty at night and the particular night shift, the officers went to work at eight and got through at four. Well, as a Sergeant, they used to take a different route each night, but the only assistance I'd get was a ride when I’d take the streetcar up to the East End to start and get out near East Junior High School, see the officer in that area, then I'd have to walk over to Chenango Street up as far as State and Chenango Streets, then I'd see them between there and the viaduct. I had to see two there—they alternated on the corner there, one would walk around his post one hour while the other stayed there, then the other would do the same thing the next hour. Then I'd have to walk over to Clinton Street, see two officers over there, and then from there down to Glenwood Avenue and Clinton Street, see the officer there, then across the Main Street and walk up and generally see the officer there at ah Main and Jarvis, and then from there up to Main and Front Street where they alternated there, one walking around his post one hour while the other one was on the corner, then I'd have to go over town, walk over into the 5th Ward, see the officers there, then up to the 6th Ward, see one there near Crowley's Milk Plant or in that area generally, and from there over to Liberty and Court and see the officers there, and down through Court Street and see the officers on the different corners. Then I'd have to do that before 3:30 in the morning and then I'd have to take the officers that was going out to their posts, while there wasn't too many then, maybe a dozen officers—the most of them were on nights. Then I would have to go around and see them on their posts before reporting off duty. If I had a car like they do today, I could do most of it in an hour and a half.
Dan: Did you have to walk all that distance?
Michael: Walk it.
Dan: Didn’t you even have a bike?
Michael: No, no, walk it. And seven days a week.
Dan: No days off?
Michael: No, no days off. You got two weeks vacation and you had to work a full year before you got it. Now, today they allow you so much for so many months you work, you know, in that first year. And they get a month and a week for holidays or so as I understand it—why, there’s no comparison. One of those, why and I must say that officers in those days demanded respect. There’s no young hoodlums walking around up to them and saying, “Oink, oink,” like there is today and getting away with it. No wonder there's no discipline.
Dan: You were Sergeant at the time you had to go make all those calls?
Michael: Yes, yes.
Dan: And that was what year, Mike?
Michael: Oh, I was appointed Sergeant in 1925.
Dan: 1925.
Michael: And I passed First for Detective, but the, the Commissioner has a choice of the first three, and, ah, a fellow named Casey got it but—which was all right, he was on a long time—he was friends of, to pick any of the first three. Then I passed First for Lieutenant, but in the meantime they were changing Chiefs when Hunt was Chief, and, ah so they ah appointed Abel to Captain, Chief, and to my surprise they sent for me one day and said, “We might as well do this all at once—we're making you the acting Captain.” I was first on the Lieutenants list, but they didn't appoint me because they intended to appoint me Captain, and as a matter of fact I was working as an acting Captain drawing a Sergeant's pay, and I was over the Lieutenants was drawing more pay than I was. That’s the way it was—you had to be appointed permanently before they gave you the money—today they make you acting, they pay you the money. So as, ah—was appointed Chief in 1942, and, ah, Chief Abel took a position with Remington Rand when they came here and started a plant in Johnson City, and he took over the protection duties down there, and, ah, then I worked from then until I was 70 years old, when I retired. Then of course in those days, ah, ah, we had of course naturally the petty little places where workers used to go to gamble, but never know that gambling as they’d try to make it out one time, and, ah, I know places where the so-called big shots were gambling, but you never hear any complaints about that—but the poor working man, why, they raided the place, you put the players in too in those days. And then as far as disorderly houses, there was one on Wall Street, and I wouldn't want to mention some of the guests that they had there cause it would surprise most of the people in the city.
Dan: Was that run by Dora Warren?
Michael: Yes. and, ah, I used to have to question them after we marked the bills and give them to what we call the stool pigeon to go up, to go in there, and then the police matron would take money from the girls when they'd be brought to the Police Station, and when you showed them the numbers on the bills, they knew they were sunk and they'd generally admit.
Dan: Were you on the force, Mike, when there was a troop? The troop was here from either the CCC or else they were training here for some reason or another, and they, one of the fellas robbed Dora and they had to call the Police. Could you tell me about that?
Michael: I don’t remember too much about that. They raided it while they were here, I know, but the details—why, it’s been so long ago. They were camped up there, I believe up near Deforest Street for a while, but ah, at the time I know there was, you know, an interesting story, but I cannot for the life of me remember the details. But, ah, to me that was one of the most disgusting things that I had to do, was to be questioning those, because I could not see them at all—no how.
Dan: Now, during Prohibition days, Mike, what about—did you have to conduct many raids or anything?
Michael: Yeah, ah, they had a vice squad that would raid now and then, but, ah…they always had places, naturally. That was a law that never should have been passed, the Volstead Act—and get arrested, but they would be right back in business again.
Dan: What are your recollections about the Chapman Hotel? Are you acquainted with that?
Michael: Well, ah, that was quite a place, ah, but ah it was just working people went there—they, you know, at the corner of Liberty and Henry Streets. And then later one of the Chapman boys owned the hotel, it was the old McDonald Hotel on Lewis Street.
Dan: That’s the one I have reference to.
Michael: and, ah, as I understand it, they did pretty good, but I cannot remember anybody that was in the bootlegging game as they called it—even those who was supposed to make quite a sum of money—that didn't die broke. Not a one. I can’t remember one that really, you know, so there must be some curse to the liquor. and, ah, also there were several of them on the North Side—their wives died young. It seemed that there was a curse to it. I don't know what it is, but ah I’ve known too many cases, you know, where they all had hard luck.
Dan: I know they used to refer to it as 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock Mass up at the Chapman Hotel, and they thought the Irish used to go to church up there.
Michael: Yeah, years ago, too, you know, when—well, even before Prohibition, they had a ladies’ entrance, you know, to most, you know, “high class places,” they'd call them that—ah, the lady would look up and down the street for 5 minutes and then duck in. You know, she'd be so ashamed to go in there—today they go right in and push the men away from the bar. Well I, in those days it was a rare thing even to see any promotions in the Police Department. The superior officers, they'd work until they were ready to drop dead, and they were all fine husky men and as I say you work all night on the post—wherever you lived, you had to walk home in the morning at 4 o'clock, so you got plenty of exercise, and as I said before, the only real protection you had was a whistle. If you got in too much trouble you might blow that, somebody might hear you—and phones were scarce. There wasn't too many in a particular neighborhood, but somebody might call the police station and ask for help, but that’s the only way. Today they have radio, walkie-talkie and all the different communications.
Dan: When were firearms first introduced for the policemen? What year? Do you know, Mike?
Michael: Oh, of course they were. They had always…I imagine they always had firearms.
Dan: Well you mentioned that all they had was whistles on the beat for protection.
Michael: Oh, they had firearms too. Yeah, I mean like having another officer there like they do now, come in the car and what have you. Oh they always had firearms, always you had the firearm, but I mean that without using your firearm, I mean the only protection you had for the calls for assistance would be a whistle.
Dan: I see. Now you had an affiliation with Bob Stephenson on the Detective Bureau?
Michael: Well, Bob had retired a year, I think. I knew him real well before I got there. Yeah, he was quite a detective.
Dan: Now you, ah, mentioned Crandall & Stone, where your first job. What were conditions there? What did—
Michael: They made automobile hardware.
Dan: Automobile hardware.
Michael: Yeah, I finally got a job, that is what they call a promotion there. They have about 2 days a week, or 2 afternoons, rather, where you would, ah, what they call Japan, ah, brass nuts what were on bolt sockets—they had touring cars. You got a cent and a half for doing a gross, on piecework. And as I say you really had to work—the boss was right over you all the time—although I enjoyed it. I used to see how much I could do, but ah, how strict they was at night. The whistle blew and I forgot my cap. There was another young fellow named Griffin that lived near me on Liberty Street, and he was in the packing room, and I used to run out and get him and walk across the tracks home, but forgetting my cap, I had to go back after it and here's this big boss standing there and I'm running on my own time, and he gave me the devil. He says you run here in the morning the same way when the whistle blows. I said if they did that to an employee today, they'd have him locked up.
Dan: Now what about Stickley’s? Now they were manufacturing what?
Michael: Furniture.
Dan: Furniture.
Michael: Yeah.
Dan: Is that a forerunner of Kroehler’s, now?
Michael: No, no, Kroehler’s came later. They were up at Abbott Street. Levinsons bought Stickley’s out, but they later went out of business, and—
Dan: What did you do at Stickley’s, Mike?
Michael: Well at Stickley’s I thought I’d learn upholstering, but then this job came up, ah, stock clerk, and they asked me if I’d like to take it, and I did, and in no time at all I was superintendent of the finishing department. I was boss over fellows that was working there before I was born, at the age of 19.
Dan: But the reason you went on to the Police Department was because of the pension plan—
Michael: The pension, yeah.
Dan: —and you were appointed in 1917?
Michael: Yes, yeah.
Dan: Were there Civil Service Exams then?
Michael: Oh yes, yeah, yeah. The Commissioners then, I can remember Bennett, Brown, and Barnes—the three B's—and Frank Truitt was Mayor, and, ah some people thought he was narrow-minded, but he was one of the finest fellas that ever was. That Truitt—you know, that Truitt Shoe Company?—a very fine man. In those days, the people that worked officially at City Hall like Councilmen—they were generally businessmen. They didn't do it for the money, they did it for the good of the City, but at one time on the Common Council was Tom Behan, President of the 1900 Washer; Ed Sweet, ah, who with his brother owned Sweet Foundries; Romey Whiting, East End, who owned the feed mill; John Delavan, who operated Titchner Iron Works; Michael Sweeney, who owned half of Davie & Sweeney Laundry; Dr. Maddi. Them type of men, you know, were Councilmen.
Dan: Very prominent.
Michael: And when you went up there to spend 10¢, you better show them you were going to get 11¢ in return—not like today.
Dan: Now you, ah, recall the Overall Factory Fire?
Michael: Oh, yes. That happened on my 20th birthday. And, ah, I let the fellas go home early that day. Ah, a fella named Benchley was Treasurer of Stickley & Grant, and he came back at once, told us about the terrible fire downtown. My sister at the time was working at Hull's Cigar Factory—she was what they called a roller, you know, roll the cigars. That was about a block away. She saw some of the poor victims falling from the fire escapes—you know, the blazing, the fire blazing around them. It was horrifying, but I didn't see it ‘til after. You know, when the fire was out. I went down later.
Dan: That was located where, Mike?
Michael: On Wall Street.
Dan: On Wall Street.
Michael: Next to the Post Office.
Dan: Post Office.
Michael: The Post Office was on the corner in those days. It was a terrible thing, happened on my 20th birthday.
Dan: You were…let’s see, on the Police Department at the time?
Michael: Oh, no. I was a boss in the chair factory.
Dan: Oh, you were a boss in the chair factory.
Michael: Yeah. And, ah, as I say, I let the fellas go home early,. They wanted to go down because it was something unusual. Yeah, and it was a terrible, warm day. Terrible…I can remember that.
Dan: Now you mentioned your sister. Now, which sister worked in that tobacco factory?
Michael: My oldest Sister. She's a year older than I am and her name's Conrad. She lives in our old homestead on Liberty Street yet.
Dan: On Liberty Street. We're trying to find out as much as we can about the tobacco factory. Were you acquainted at all with her job in the Hull's tobacco factory?
Michael: No, that was there at the corner. This was quite a tobacco center in those days.
Dan: Oh, it was the tobacco center of the world at one time.
Michael: They had General Cigar on Wall Street, they had Hull’s at the corner of Water and Henry, they had Kent’s on Chenango Street—my father worked there, next to where the Greyhound Bus is today—and they, ah, had another one, I can't remember the name, up at the corner of State and Chenango Street, and then on Water Street they had Barnes, that later got the Red Dot Cigar out, and they built an addition or rented a place over on Clinton Street. They did such a business there, but it all seemed to fade away, you know, at once, and also the furniture factories. The only thing left around here, they had Stickley & Grant where I worked, they had Binghamton Chair on the other side of the factories, and they had cine or two small ones down at the end of Carroll Street there, and there’s nothing around today, and as I say, in those days and then EJ had two trains leaving the Erie Depot every morning taking employees to Johnson City and Endicott. They’d make stops on the west side, at Oak Street and Jarvis, and then they'd come back every night at 6 o'clock and they'd park all the railroad cars down near Liberty Street and, ah, jeepers. One night, this same fella that worked over later—the Griffin fellow, we both were selling even newspapers then, and we used to take the EJ train down as far as Liberty Street and walk up to our homes. And there was a train #14 that was late this night, and the kids was fooling around, and he thought he was getting on the EJ train. Gets on and he's laughing away that he got away from the other kids, and they went by Liberty Street, hell bent for election—took him to Susquehanna! and, ah, as I say, EJ at that time was employing around 20 or 25 thousand people, and how those people used to get up early in the morning to be down there and then late at night, and I believe they worked 6 days a week—I worked 6 days a week at Stickley’s. 10 hours a day.
Dan: You don't know what year Stickley’s went out of business, do you, Mike?
Michael: No, no. I really can't.
Dan: But they were furniture manufacturers. Do you suppose Kroehler’s bought them out?
Michael: No, no, I remember when Kroehler's came here…and, ah, when they built it. There was, ah, a fellow in charge of the finishing department, you know, came over to see me—I was working at Stickley’s, you know, and I knew him. They were quite an outfit there for a while. ‘Course a lot of things have been improved upon, like at Stickley’s. One thing about Stickley’s, the furniture was 100%—if it was oak, it was 100% oak. It wasn’t veneered. And of course naturally they had to get a price, you know, we couldn't with their costs and their profits, and the other factories’d come out and put a veneer on the front. To the ordinary purchaser, one looked just as good as the other, but one was much cheaper, so that competition got pretty tough—that was the Mission furniture and, ah, the brothers, the Stickley Brothers up in East Syracuse. They were quite an outfit, and then later, ah, Stickley out of there, his son has the Stickley photograph place there on Carroll Street.
Dan: That’s still going.
Michael: Yeah, yeah.
Dan: They moved over, of course, to the Vestal Plaza.
Michael: You remember Carl Stickley?
Dan: No, no I don't.
Michael: He was a cripple or something—I forget what was the matter with him, but he did all right, he certainly did alright.
Dan: Mike, if you worked seven days a week, what did you do for recreation?
Michael: Oh boy, I’m telling you, you didn’t go out nights running around like they do today, don't you know. What a change, that's what I say, of course, ah, the inventions and everything, they'd make things easier to build and manufacture. Some of these persons I say, a lot of people I talk to, I wish for 6 months that this entire country could be put back to those early days and have them work the way they had to work, save the way they had to save like the other things, and then they would appreciate, you know. Now of course, when I was a kid, I thought the only time they had eggs was at Easter. As I say, if you got up in the morning—
[interruption—someone at the door]
Dan: You were born, brought up on Pine Street?
Michael: I was only a year old when they moved up, ah, on Liberty Street.
Dan: Oh, from Pine Street to Liberty Street.
Michael: Yeah.
Dan: And how was Pine Street in those days? Of course, you were a little young at the time.
Michael: They were fairly nice neighborhoods, you know, for ordinary folks like my parents, were immigrants from Ireland, hard working, and one thing I'd like to say—all the people were alike. They were just ordinary people, and someone, once in a while, would have hard times, be out of work or in debt, have you. There was no such thing in those days as relief, and I'm just as sure as I'm sitting here, if there was such a thing as relief, they wouldn't accept it because they'd think it’d be a stigma for the rest of their lives. And in addition, then what they would do, they would take in washings and wash and iron clothes—a large basket for a dollar and a quarter, and there was no electrical appliances then, like electric washers or—it didn't make much difference how much money you had, and they would scrub those clothes on a washboard, and boil them, and then hang them out to dry, and then iron them, and they'd do, as I say, a large basket for a dollar, or a dollar and a quarter. That’s what some of these people should be made to do today, also.
Dan: Right.
Michael: They could learn the value of the dollar.
Dan: That’s right. Now, were there mostly Irish up there on Liberty Street at the time?
Michael: Yes. It seems peculiar—like on Pine Street and Henry, there was almost all Irish extraction at one time, and, ah…then the Italians came and they moved in there, and the Irish moved up on Liberty Street. They got along all right, they were all fine people, both the Italians and the Irish, but that’s the way. Then over in the First Ward all the Slavic, Lithuanian and other ethnic groups moved over there, very fine people, and always kept their homes up nice, you know, worked hard, and worked, most of them in the shoe factory, and they made real good citizens. But I don't know, the way things are today, and then there was Jewish people would be down around, ah, Susquehanna Street and South Street. They'd be rag pickers, they'd have a horse and truck going around picking up bones and everything, and some of them men were the fathers of some of the finest lawyers that was ever, you know, in the City of Binghamton.
Dan: Sure, sure.
Michael: And, ah, there was Jake Smith that I could remember him—he was a fruit peddler and he'd tell the policemen he'd leave his cellar, he'd leave the door open, he says, “If you want something during the night,” he says, “you go down and help yourselves.” About 3 o'clock in the morning sometimes you could go down, get a piece of pineapple and stand at the corner of South Street all by your lonesome nippin’ on it. Oh I'm telling you, believe me, when that Sergeant came around in those days you’d better be there.
Dan: Was Charlie Kress in office at the time that you were on the Police Department?
Michael: Oh, Charlie Kress, you know, ah, he was a peculiar individual, but he was a very bright fella and he thought at one time that I was giving news to the Scrantonian, which used to write him up once in a while, and, ah, so one time he changed me—I was Assistant Chief then—he put me in from midnight ‘til eight in the morning. He couldn't take me out of circulation entirely. He told Abel he'd have to work from eight ‘til four, and Sheehan from four ‘til midnight. I went looking for him one night when he was Mayor. Had a little Model T Ford in the Police Station then, and the first two times I went around in front of City Hall, I could see him in there, he'd even be in there at night, and there was cars parked, so I couldn't stop and I kept going around the block, and the third time around, it was in darkness and I looked over and I see him walking up the street—no hat, you know—in front of Resnick’s. I pulled up in front of the Courthouse—that Model T, I don't know, somebody knows if it stopped when I got out of it, because I couldn't, and I went over and said, “I want to see you.” Well him and I went at it, he walked away from me, you know, and over to the Courthouse, and me right after him, he finally threw up both hands—says, “Work any hours you want.” And, ah, from that time on, I never had a better friend. Oh, I had a great letter out here, but some way the Chief'd read it, boy could he write a letter. And, ah, one time he was running, and of course some of the politicians didn't like him too well. And, ah, of course the Sun supported him but the Press was against him, and, ah, he put a piece in the Sun one morning—he says if there was a skunk under a porch and you threw the Binghamton Press in there, the skunk would come out. He was a smart cookie, believe me.
Dan: Yeah, he was.
Michael: And he got more, in my opinion, for every dollar spent out of City employees than any Mayor in my memory, and I remember a lot of them. He had a way about him, and down in Washington, he had friends in both parties. He was really clever.
Dan: Now, the Police Department at one time used to wear the uniforms like the Bobbies in England.
Michael: You mean with the helmets?
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: They got rid of them just before I went on. That's one thing I didn't want to wear, that large helmet. Yeah, they just got rid of them just before I went on. But boy, not bragging, maybe with an exception here and there, policemen in those days were real, good, dedicated, and believe me they commanded respect. There was nobody went up to them and said, “Oink, oink,” and got away with it.
Dan: That’s very interesting, Mike.
Michael: In fact, I got a book here, not in 1925—it was just before I was appointed Sergeant. Get that off for a minute, I just want you—
[Michael leaves the room to get a book]
Dan: I want to watch this [tape recorder] for a minute, so it won't run down.
[tape resumes]
Dan: Do you remember Willis Sharpe Kilmer and the Sun Briar Court on—
Michael: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yeah.
Dan: Could you tell me a little about that?
Michael: Well, nothing. Only it was quite a place where they bred horses and what have you. And, ah, I know I was on the motorcycle—they invited me down there one day, but ah, yes, I remember when George Ely was the Secretary. Yes I remember Willis Sharpe’s father. He'd come—the Press was printed right up at the corner in the Swamp Root building—and he'd come out of there night, and I'd used to sell papers a penny apiece. You get two for a cent and sell them for a penny apiece. He'd always give you a nickel for the paper, and he could have picked it up right in his office, don't you know.
Dan: Right, right.
Michael: He was a short fellow, but—Willis was a big strapping fella, but the father was short, and, ah they used to say they got the business away from the father's brother.
[Tape #2]
Michael: He was supposed to be the one that had the ingredients that went into swamp root, but don't know how the Father got it away but they manufactured up there, but then over in England also, but after a while over in England they made, you know, like you know in advertising, what have you, change their methods, and they finally sold out. I think some outfit that took it up in one of the New England states. But during Prohibition, some people used to drink that instead of the other stuff they used to be able to get. There was some Palmatier fellows, nice fellows, up there around Deforest Street that were bosses there—I remember my sister-in-law worked there. They made a pretty good dollar out of it, you know, when it was going. They used to tell the story, I don't know how true it is, that he was a good friend of mine, too, real good, gave me my first plane ride. I was always scared to death to ride a plane, and, ah, there was a local contractor here named Lawrence Kane, was a friend of mine, he was a friend of this Ralph Sweet and, ah, had Sweet’s plane up there at upper Glenwood Ave. He had that airport, and, ah, he offered me to take a ride and, ah, finally they asked me so much, I was a Captain then, and, ah, I said to Lawrence, I says if he wants to take me up to see my boy at Notre Dame, I'll consider taking a ride, thinking that'll be the end of it. So in a couple of weeks, he calls me and says, “You got a pencil?” I thought he was giving me a riddle or something, and I said, “Yeah.” He says, “Mark this date down: June 26th.” I says, “What about it?”
“It's the day you're leaving this earth.” I pretty near left then. “He's taking me out to Notre Dame to see your boy.” Well we told Father Lynch, who was at St. Patrick’s, and, ah, “Gosh,” he says, “I'd like to take a ride.” Well Lawrence says, “I'll see if there'll be room enough,” and they told him yes. He told his mother and his mother put her foot down—no. “Well,” I says, “if I'm up there with a clergyman I'll be all right,” but when his mother said no, I thought sure we were going to come down. So I started out that morning with him—Lawrence picked me up, I didn't even tell my wife—I told her I was just taking a ride with Lawrence Kane. Then I went up to see my mother, Lord have mercy on her, and, ah, she said, “Where are you going so early?” I said, “just take a ride.” We drove around Front Street and a black cat, and I made him stop the car and turn around–go around another street. So when I got up to the airport, the Sweet airport, all that feeling had left me, and he had his own private pilot. So we get in, he said to me, “We might come down in Cleveland to stretch our legs.” I said, “If we get me up there, stay there until I get out to something,” but after I got up there it got so monotonous, you know, going along, I was glad to come down in Cleveland. So we went out and we met—oh, ah, what’s his name?—Father Connerton, I think, and, ah, he took us around the University and showed it, and that afternoon, in the morning rather, my boy finished his studies for the year, so he asked Ralph, how about bringing him back home? So he asked the pilot if, you know, he'd be too heavy a load or anything. He said no, it'd be all right, so we brought him home with us. We left here around 7 o'clock or 8 o 'clock in the morning—I forget which. I went out there, we had lunch, went around the University, started back around 4 in the afternoon and, ah, left there, brought my son with me, and was to work that night at 7:30. So that was my experience, and Sweet always got a great kick out of, you know, telling of how he gave me my first plane ride. After that I’d have taken off right in the middle of the road out here, you know, the, I overcame that fear.
Dan: That was quite an experience, Mike. That Sweet…what business was he in, Mike?
Michael: Well he was, he worked in the Shoe factory originally, and I don’t know how he got in there. Several fellows around, they used to—they had medicine of some kind too over there, but I can't tell you what—but they used to tell the story, but I don't know how much truth there's in it. He used to have an ad in the paper—you could advertise anything in those days—says, “Send 10¢ and get a yard of silk.” They'd send ‘em a yard of silk thread. Whether that was true or not, I was never able to find out. But he, he really would, at times his knees was through his trousers when he’s going to work, but he was a millionaire afterwards.
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: And, ah, I was one of his pallbearers when he died. But he really got a great kick thinking of—oh, and then later he got a plane, was a Beechcraft, and, ah, I think he sold his to the Government. Then later, the wings was falling off some of them. Oh boy, was I scared then. Then he got a new one out, a smaller one, and he called me up one afternoon and he says we might as well go up, and we went around Watkins Glen and then we came down in Ithaca. It snowed or something, I forget now, but that day I got airsick, it was bouncing around like a rubber ball up there.
Dan: Now he ended up in what business, was it Swamp Root?
Michael: No, no. No, I don't know, I don’t know what he was interested, but he had, he had a lot of money.
Dan: Dabbled into a little bit of everything, huh?
Michael: I guess so, yeah.
Dan: Was it his daughter that married one of the Johnsons? One of the Sweets married a Johnson.
Michael: No, no. I'll tell you, where he lived at one time was in that red house on Walnut Street that sets back in with the big fence around there, for years there. And, ah, to tell you the truth, I really don't know exactly, but you know it was lots of businesses like Swamp Root, and didn't advertise anyway like that, but later on, they started tightening up later, but he had a lot of money all right, there was no question about that.
Dan: Do you know of any reason why the cigar manufacturers kept dwindling down and eventually went out of business?
Michael: I really don't know, I really don't know, unless it was like the General Cigar Factory came here and everything was like things are, like the machines, don't you know. Well you see, they made what they call bunches—that’s the inside of the cigar. It took two of them to keep my sister going. She was real fast—what they call a roller. They rolled, you know, the outside, and it was all done by hand, but the General I understand, you know, more mechanical, and I would imagine like everything else, making things by machines instead of by hand.
Dan: Now your sister, Mrs. Conrad you said—where does she live?
Michael: She lives in the old homestead, 99 Liberty Street.
Dan: 99 Liberty Street. Do you suppose she would mind giving me her experiences in the Cigar Factory?
Michael: Oh, no.
Dan: You see we have very scant information about—we know about the cigar factories, but not the people that worked in them. 99— [interruption]
Michael: Yeah, yeah, 99 Murray.
Dan: 99 Murray—that would just be up the street here.
Michael: No, 99 Liberty.
Dan: Oh, Liberty.
Michael: She's 86 years old.
Dan: 86.
Michael: Now I'm 84; I'll be 85 in July.
Dan: Well, you're going strong, Mike; keep that lamp on.
Michael: Oh, I got the back separated back there, and it’s, and it’s causing—last year I didn't feel any older than I was when I was 50. Now I feel like 150, and the doctor that operated on me, Dr. Gold, he said, “You're going to make 95.” I said, “Geez, I think he made a mistake.” I think he meant 9:00 that night. Do you know Dr. Gold? He's in with Wescott.
Dan: Not personally. I've heard of him.
Michael: Yeah, yeah.
Dan: Well is there anything else you would like to tell me about the Police Department that sticks out in your mind at all?
Michael: Well there's some things I could tell you, but they'd think I'd be bragging though—this isn't on, is it?
Dan: This is on, yeah, but as far as bragging is concerned, this is not going to be published—it’s not for publication.
Michael: No, no, but they’re different today than—it’s easier to find a law abider today than it is not, to tell you the truth. I get more complaints here than I did when I was working. Believe it or not, I know every move they make.
Dan: Yeah, ought to get a police scanner so you can get all their calls.
Michael: No, anything that plays, anything on television, I turn, I says, “I seen enough,” that—they tell us about three being in, down, two of us got to be in violation of the rules and regulations. Anyway, when you left the Police Station, you walked in those days, of course, you had to go directly the shortest distance to your post, as fast as possible. Stop in—ah, what’s that place? Woolworth’s—have coffee. I was there, too, when three of them would be on their way home, but especially two would be off their post, even. One of them of course would be working their post about 2 o’clock in the afternoon. They'd see three coming out of the building there on Court Street, where the bus starters have their room. Boy I’m telling ya, they're getting great money today really. Did you ever hear of any of them quitting and getting another job?
Dan: No I think they’re starting out at 10 or 11 thousand dollars today, and a very good pension plan after 20 years.
Michael: Oh yeah. Without bragging, the best, Sullivan, Gillen, O’Dea—his sister is married to my son. I bet I did more work than the three of them put together.
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: Sullivan, he sat around newspaper men, what have you—his wife’s more of a man, acts more like one, walks more like one. When in church, he'd be behind her like a little kitten. She’s put him into the pew. Fact, she was designed the uniforms, and after she got through, they threw them out, as I understand, around the locker room over there, ‘cause, like an Eisenhower Jacket. The taxpayers paid for that. When I went on you had to pay for your own uniform, you had it made by a tailor. You had to buy the cloth from the City, and I was the first one that got them a uniform allowance, $50.00. They'd have to grain that uniform, that’s their part, if it’s that’s replaced—into their Assistant Chief, and have them see it, get his permission, go and have it made and come back before he'd send it up there. Now I understand they're getting around $150 in January and $100 in July. I haven’t, I’m going to check up to see it. The taxpayers and the, eventually the renters too, had to pay that time then. Taxes for things like that, now like that. It's terrible, absolutely terrible.
Dan: Well, back in the…after the repeal of the 18th Amendment, you used to get quite a few winos. Could you tell me something about when you used to take and, ah, put them up for the night at the Police Station down in the basement—the old Police Station?
Michael: Oh they used to, the fellas came in like, ah—”lodgers,” they called them. Take their name down and release them in the morning. The poor fellas would go out and the first thing, they'd be looking for cigarettes and, you know, stubs that was thrown away. I’d have them even stop me in the street when I would be going to the office, you know, extend me for a quarter. Then I'd tell them who I was and some of them would pretty near drop dead. But I’d give the poor devils a quarter, don't you know.
Dan: Didn't they have boards downstairs where they could—?
Michael: Yeah, they slept on them, yeah, on the boards—even the prisoners slept on boards. Boy, I’m telling ya, and then as I say, not bragging, I'll bet you I got more statements out of more law violators for felonies than anyone in the 42 years that I was working there. Of course I wouldn't get away with it today.
Dan: What were some of the principal violations in those days—breaking the law as far as Prohibition was concerned?
Michael: Well, no, burglary and things like that, and you know, felonies. You know, if they could outtalk them it was OK, but the minute they started giving me snide remarks… The only time that I really come close to, ah, getting into difficulty—ah, Abe Gold, Dr. Maddi, and myself were like three brothers. Abe was District Attorney at the time, but they got a call one night over on the south side, and, ah I don't know whether it was a drugstore or what was being burglarized. When they caught the young fella, 24 years old, and, ah they brought him in to talk to me to question, to try to get a statement out of him. Finally he turned his rear end to me, then I got up and turned him around and I forgot my ring, and gee, I cut him over the eye here and couldn't take him to court for three days. Took him over to the hospital there.
Dan: [laughs]
Michael: When he got there, Richardson was the judge, and you know his southern accent. He says, “What happened to you?” Given his due, he says, “I was chopping wood and a piece came up and hit me,” but when he went home, he told his mother the true story, so she goes to the District Attorney. Abe says to her, “You’re lucky your son is not on his way to Attica.” So she was satisfied then, but that's the closest I’ve ever come. But you bet your life they generally signed faster, you give them, as I say, you couldn't get away with it today. Like some of these decisions—and they're split decisions too, 5 to 4—the Supreme Court made a short time ago. There was two officers went after a fellow in a neighboring state where they picked him up, and, ah he had killed a young girl, and on the way back, they were very nice to him, but they didn’t tell him that he didn’t have to say nothing unless he had a lawyer and all that. and, ah I’ll be darned, a 6 to 5 decision—I think it was that they threw the statement out, you know. I was going to write ‘em that time, but I didn't. I was going to say if I was in charge of a Police Department in the district where you're living, I'd leave orders there, if you or any member of your family called up and said that you were being attacked by these thugs, to tell you that we’re were busy and to take care of it yourself—making heroes out of them and that Kuntsler, that lawyer.
Dan: You mean of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Michael: Yeah, boy. I don't mind giving a person a break or two breaks, you know, if they’re entitled to it or something like that, but some of those thugs that’s out there that’s—
Dan: Well they're protected, you know, with the Miranda.
Michael: Well, they kind of doctored up that decision now, you know, it’s not as strict as, you know, just because they didn’t rap on the door or something.
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: They're sitting on the old perches out there, up there. They're not out there taking, you know, this stuff from these thugs.
Dan: You were on the force when George Weslar was killed, weren’t you?
Michael: Yes, yeah, I was acting Chief that time. Charlie Kress was Mayor. They called me here, ah, and went over there on Water Street, and I think that was the first time we ever used gas, and poor George, he was, he wasn't working, but this fella, I don’t know, was having trouble with his wife or something, but anyway, so George goes over and goes to go up the steps, and he was up there with a shotgun—killed him. Some other fella that was going with him, and he killed him too.
Dan: That boy was going to school with me, I forget his name right now—he was from St. Mary’s.
Michael: Is that so? And anyway, they called me over there, and finally Joe Varsick, the detective, you know, we shot the gas up in there so we figured, well, can’t be that he was escaping then because wasn't getting any response or from out back. Charlie even climbed the pole out there, Charlie Kress, and Varsick went up and he shot himself—the fellow, you know.
Dan: Committed suicide?
Michael: Yeah, yeah. But there was enough gas up there that he had been immobile, anyway. Yeah, I can remember that right well. Oh, there’s probably a lot of other places, but they don't come to my mind fresh now but ah, I see once in a while they put in the paper something I can never remember. They said, ah, Captain Abel and Sergeant Hanifin, how they raided a disorderly house on Court Street—I can never remember a thing about it, said later we both became Chiefs, you know, like that. Another time they had up there about me chasing kids off the ice near Rogan’s Mill up there, tell them if I catch them out again they'd go to jail. I couldn't remember it at all, didn't you know. You know, a lot of interesting things if a person could remember them.
Dan: WelI remember the Chapman Hotel. They used to call 11 or 12 o'clock Mass down there—that used to be a scream, ‘course they'd be going down there.
Michael: Yeomans—that’s how they appointed Casey, to tell you the truth. In those days they thought that they was—I have no definite proof, you know, of any acts of these—they used to call the little Brothers. But if you was a Catholic, you know, and Yeomans was Commissioner, see.
Dan: Commissioner of what?
Michael: Of safety. So ah, he ah, we had an examination in those days, they'd detail you to a job and they'd give you an allow for experience but they don't allow you today, or go in there either. So Casey got so many points on the examination for experience. “Oh,” he says, “so I am going to take it anyway.” I beat him by 5 points, even with his number first, so Helen Brick—do you remember her?
Dan: No.
Michael: Lived on Pine Street, she was a Commissioner's Secretary, and I'm on a motorcycle and I dropped in the office early on a Monday morning, and Kress didn't like me much—he had quite a piece. He got the tipoff on a Saturday’s paper that Yeomans was out of town, trying to put him in the middle. I knew Casey’d get it, even if he was, he had the right to appoint the first three anyway, and he told him about the civil service commission found me to be the best qualified and all this—a lot of blarney, not so much for me, just a lot of politics. So I came in on the motorcycle at half past nine Monday morning and Helen Brick walked down the hall to the main office. She says, “Congratulations.” I says, “Yeah, that’s all the good it'd do me.” She says, “Oh, he didn't appoint him already did he?” That’s what burned me up. I come over here and I never felt anything, but Dr. Day had me come in—my stomach was upset and he cured it, you know, upset stomach. I came over here and got a little drink, stick of gum in my mouth, back I'd go and I go into his office, and he says, “Mike, I was going to send for you,” and I says, “I came in to see about that job that I know the appointment was made upstairs.” Now he says, “I haven't got a thing against you, Mike.” ‘Course there was two or three made, well I always promised Frank that I would make him a detective and, ah I promised him, you know, he was a great one.
[interruption]
Michael: Before I got off these places, he was a death on boozer’s driving. Had me in front of Chapman's on Henry Street to make arrests if they had signs out, but never arrested anybody. They took me out of there and put me up to the Arlington Hotel and put Casey down there, you know, so to patrol something. Said to him, “Now, Commissioner, you tell me if it’s anything I've done, and I'll try to correct it—if you tell me if it’s anything I'm doing, it’s wrong and I'll stop it, but if it’s my religion, I'm doing nothing.” He says, “Here, here, here, and, ah so ah, you knew that,” says there'll be other examinations. I says, “You can't expect me to be passing first,” and it was, generally in those days there wouldn't be an exam. The guys would stick in there ‘til they dropped dead, you know, the old fellows, and, ah Kelly, this Sergeant, you'll see his picture in there, he was just able to shuffle along, you know—wouldn't have an examination. So I took it, and, ah Tommy Broughton was working in front of the Courthouse there, corner Chenango and Court traffic, when I'd go by in a motorcycle—stopped me one day. John McDonald, don't know whether you knew him or not, he was President of the Civil Service, and, ah he's got a kid that’s a lawyer with IBM, I guess he's down in Washington. One of his sons now is City Assessor.
Dan: Oh, I know him. That McDonald, yeah.
Michael: and, ah so ah, Ralph New, he was with McTighe’s grocers—the founder—and he stopped me, wanted to know if the papers been marked. ‘Course he took it too, so ah, yeah, said they're marked, but he wouldn't tell him who was ahead. He says it’s a smart redhead, he says was ahead. That’s all he told him, so Tommy stopped me, I said—of course his brother's hair was pure red, but my head was, you know, was never red—got a blond in it. I says, he says, “By God I think you're the one that’s on top,” and l sure enough I was. Jeepers, I got an old paper up there somewheres, you know there’s so much discussion about the thing right across the Sun, used to get out the Bulldog at night. Big headlines across: “Hanifin Sergeant.” You'd think I was President of the United States.
Dan: The Bulldog was out on Saturday nights, wasn't it?
Michael: Oh, every night.
Dan: Oh, every night—a Special.
Michael: Yeah, and I made him talk so much that day. I never, with my right hand up, I don't believe theres another one in the Police Department could say they never asked a politician or anybody to intercede for me in any way for any job. I knew they did, but not by asking them for me. They did it on their own or somebody else asking for them—I don't know, and, ah as I say, every examination I took, I passed first. Sergeant—first was Detective, Sergeant, Lieutenant, and Captain.
Dan: When did they first introduce motorcycles in the beginning when you first went on the force?
Michael: I think they were there before, I couldn't tell you, but they used to have horses when I was a kid. Had three horses, and, ah Lewis, Bucky Lewis was a cop then, Hillegas, and God I can't think of the other one. In fact, there was a murder up on Liberty Street one day, they was a couple of Italians, he was a nice fellow too, I often wondered, everybody thinks, it might have been named Maggio because he left here, he went out. I think that was his name, and he lived down near the Patch Pond, what they called it. There was a block there near Liberty Street, you go down the hill and there’s a little house down back, and he lived there and he worked on the railroad. But he had an argument with another Italian, and the Italian kept following him up to get rid of the party. He kept telling him to go back, and he showed him the gun—he had it, and the Roundhouse was there at Liberty Street near Eldridge, and just as they got there, he turned around and let him have it. Killed the guy. Up he comes and he’s coming up the street on a Sunday afternoon. The kid that lived in the neighborhood with me—I was 12 years old—his name was Dow, and there was a cemetery there on the corner of Eldridge and Liberty and it took in all of Wales Avenue all through there, and we run up in the cemetery when we see him coming up the street. It was a hot one. Pretty soon them mounted cops come, they drove the horses down the hill in to that house, but the guy was a nice citizen, you know, as far as that was concerned, but he got out of it. They didn't convict him, and when he left here shortly afterwards, he went to California. Lot of people thinks, you know, maybe he was one of Maggios or offspring from out there but I don't know, and that cemetery, we used to go down there as kids, pick coal along the tracks—people were poor in those days, you know. And there was an icehouse down there, and they used to cut, jug cut the ice in a patch pond, and they'd be taking the big cakes out and some pieces would fall, you'd put in your little cart and take ‘em home, and as I said before, there was no electric refrigerators. The rich people had to buy ice the same as the poor, but we only had those little chunks to put in ours, and the kids would pick up bones and sell them to the rag pickers. Oh, but the way things are today, why those people, as I, without being repetitious, I do not believe that anybody that lived on Liberty Street those are, if there was such a thing, which there wasn't in those days, as relief, that they would accept it. They'd think it would be a stigma the the rest of their lives, but today those people knock you out of the way up the stores coming out them, having a cab outside to come home in. So there is no incentive to work and save today, and if you do work and save then the government wants to take the money away in taxes. I just got a nice dividend from General Motors and I had to give $600 to the Government. They declared a nice fat dividend this year.
Dan: Taxes amounted to 600 dollars?
Michael: Yeah, they, years ago I had 200 shares, and God, I had to sell it, coming down. They kept calling me over to Baches and I finally had to sell 100 at a loss, and it went down, was only 100 I had left. I borrowed money off Mike Reardon, my brother-in-law, my mother, Lord have mercy on her, to keep that 100 I had left. I was in the hospital with a broken hip, was the only thing that made me feel good. It had split 2 for 1 before that and later, for every 20 you had, you could buy a share for $75, so I bought 10 shares which I was entitled for $750, and at that time it was selling for $94 so had 220 later, it split 3 for 1. No, 210 I had, split 3 for 1, so then I had 630 and I still held on to it. I'd have 1260 if I didn't have to sell that other. This past year, last year they paid 85 cents and they only made a nickel a share—they cut it down to 60 in one of the quarters, but the end of this year, they gave a dollar, which was 630 for regular dividend, two and a quarter extra. I got a check the other day for $2047.50.
Dan: Wonderful, wonderful.
Michael: Took me out of the red.
Dan: How long have you lived here, Mike?
Michael: Oh, I've lived here since I was married. I only lived in the three places—where I was born on Pine Street, on Liberty, and then over here, and when George was District Attorney, he was the one got me to buy this place.
Dan: Dad was Assistant District Attorney.
Michael: Assistant, yeah, and do you know what I paid down on this? $1300, and I gave, was it fifteen something?
Dan: Now you say, Mike, you paid $1300 down on this.
Michael: Yeah, and, ah the Binghamton Savings Bank had the mortgage five something, and then when ah Andrews was Commissioner, he liked me, you know, even to Frank Newell it take it over for five, and they they want to reduce the Savings Bank at that time, but he made arrangements with Newell to take it over, and, ah of course I paid it off some time ago, but I don't get within $30 or $40 of what I should be getting. ‘Course I get a break on the Veterans, but I should, like $135 is the highest I get here. About three years ago my gas used to cost me $800 a year, now they want $1848 to get it on the budget.
Dan: ‘Course, the higher you put the rents, the more turnover you're going to get.
Michael: Well that’s it, but you know at one time I had 5 widows, only one of them, your pardon, and the two of us—seven. Now there's, they're up there, and she has a lady taking care of her there and a man up on the top floor, he’s pretty good, used to take care of the apartments somewheres—he does a lot of work around here.
Dan: Well, Mike, I certainly appreciate your taking your time. I’ll play this tape back for you if you'd like to hear it. I'd like to ask you one more question. You mentioned about a cemetery on the corner of Eldridge and Liberty—what ever happened to it? You were twelve years old at the time.
Michael: Yeah, they dug the graves up, and a fellow named Lloyd, he lived on Liberty Street, old Lloyd had two sons—I forget their names now—and, ah when I was going to school at Robinson Street and I used to stand around. Some they only get a few bones out of there—everything had deteriorated and gone, you know what I mean, even the box.
Dan: Do you know where they moved it to?
Michael: Yeah, over to Spring Forest.
Dan: Oh, Spring Forest.
Michael: Yeah, they took everything out of there, and my uncle bought a lot at the corner of Liberty, and my father…Lord have mercy on both of them. My father bought a lot there, where the Bus company later had built a garage, and my uncle, he was ah, he was…ah, Jack Hanifin, they used to call him. There was three brothers, Mike lived on Henry Street—I was named after him—he was a grandfather to the Fire Chief that got drowned, and, ah he got wind they was interested in the garage, and he comes up and buys my father's lot off him, you see. And there was a murderer, I forget his name now, that was buried in the part where it was, up in the area where my uncle owned. Of course when they dug it down even with Liberty Street and all that dirt, but there was a murderer buried there, and, ah as I say, they made Water Ave and sold the lots out. There was only one row of houses on Robinson Street, and then there was two or three on Emmett, then all the rest of that area was cemetery. We'd go up there, as I say, and see it in little boxes, they put whatever they got in and then they took them over and buried them in Spring Forest.
Dan: Right. A common grave, then?
Michael: Yeah.
Dan: I think over in Spring Forest is where all of the victims of the fire in the overall factory are.
Michael: Yeah, they had services over at the Stone Opera House on a Sunday. Unidentified, don’t you know, after that fire.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Michael L. Harendza
Interviewed by: Anna Caganek and Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 15 December 1977
Anna: This is Anna Caganek: the interviewer. I am talking to Professor Michael L. Harendza. 69 Colfax Ave, Binghamton, New York. The date is December 15, 1977. Uh, Professor? Tell me about your life and experiences in the community.
Professor Harendza: Well, my mother brought me here from, ehm, Austria. It’s now Czechoslovakia. The name of the town that I was born in was, uh…Storcin [Stojčín]. S-T-O-R-C-I-N. Storcin. It’s in the northwestern part of Czechoslovakia, in the small Carpathian Mountains. My father died—he traveled extensively, he came to America about four times. He traveled to South America. And, uh, he came back home, and my mother got pregnant again. And I popped out. [chuckles] I was born on June 29, 1901.
My father died, so we buried him. And we stayed there. I had an older sister: Rose Harendza. She came to America—I don’t know how, I don’t know what year, around 1904 I think—and she married John Kukol and they had twelve children, they kept on coming. Then we came, and I shall never forget, I was very happy on that boat. Mother said we naturally got bad steerage, they couldn't afford to get us a better class ticket and—but I got acquainted with the Captain and the attendants on the boat. They let me run around, and I always had a feeling then that I had a good voice. I would sing Hungarian folk songs and Slovak folk songs. And I would get a lot of loose change—I brought home that and I gave it to my mother. They also gave me a lot of fruit, which Mother appreciated very much, because being down in that steerage, as a matter of fact she was sick all the while. It took us two weeks to cross from Hamburg, we went on this boat [for] two weeks. We arrived in Ellis Island sometime in the early part of November, and we had to go through all the various requirements—shots and medicine, everything else. And then good physical procedure to see that you were alright, and so they let me pass. Mother was sick all the while. And then they took the address and put a tag on my mother, and a tag on me: Binghamton, New York. [laughs] And they brought us down here, and the train arrived at about 5 o’clock in the morning, and my brother-in-law John Kukol met us there, and we couldn't get a taxi or anything, so we had to trudge all the way from the old station down to the other folks there. We stayed around—our first Christmas and first Thanksgiving was that year here, as far as I know now—not too much, rather hazy, because I was just past five years old—and I did things a boy would do. [chuckles]
Anna: My bad habit—
Michael: As I said, when I got to the school, then they—in January I went to the Jarvis Street School, there is an office building now. I went there and I’ll never forget Miss Perkins, the first grade, I went, and, ah, Miss Stone—a saintly woman, a wonderful woman, she did an awful lot for the Slovak people of this neighborhood and Slovaks in general. I got in a little jam one time, my mother had to come down to prove something. Well it wasn’t so, I just tried to get away from being punished after school, and she brought an interpreter with her—I never thought Mother would be that fussy—and so Miss Perkins and I and my mother and Helen Takac and Miss Stone. I lost a pair of shoes, and she knew—they cost a lot of money, these shoes—and she knew the other children going to school without shoes—I didn’t see why I shouldn’t go, they were clumsy on me anyway. So I used to take them off and then hop to the corner house on Grace and Jarvis—remember, Anna, where Connie lives now? There were some people there, a place where I could put my shoes during school, and you know I got away with it for quite a while, but when I—one time, when I came from school for my shoes, they weren't there, somebody stole them. And so naturally Miss Stone and they wanted to know everything, in the school, and Mother wanted to know too, because two or three dollars was an awful lot of money to her—she had to work in Dunn McCarthy almost a week for it, for it. Of course I tried to earn some a little bit later, sold papers and things to help out every possible way. She went along and somehow—I took—found out they didn't steal my shoes, because my, I put my shoes in there, and—they did steal them, but it was really my fault for leaving my shoes there. And also after I got the whole interview through, she came from Miss Stone.
[Imitating his mother] “Please, give me stick.” You know, like a little pussy willow. Wooo! I got a good royal licking. She said, “Michael”—in Slovak, she said to me, “I'm not punishing you for the shoes—they’re lost, they’re lost—but the shame that you gave me, that I had to come here to this good woman and show my son was a liar.” I shall never forget that, and when she went and left Miss Stone took me upstairs to her office. “Michael,” she says, “you have a very, very wonderful mother.” Imagine it, five years—fingers stay on my head all the while. She said, “I don’t have to worry about you because you will make your way in the world all right.” I shall never forget, they were always so nice to me, everybody. And I went through—when I got to the 5th grade, St. Cyril School was built and they opened up in 19—it was built in 1910, but they couldn't get any Slovak Sisters to teach there, so they rented out to St. Patrick’s, and they used it for high school for girls there for about two years, and then in 1912 got four Sisters from Danville, Sisters of St. Cyril & Method. And from there I went to the 5th grade—6th, 7th, 8th grade I put in there, and everything went very nicely. And in the summer I would get a job somewhere else—remember Deyo Farms? I would go there picking cherries and strawberries, and weeding, you know, earn a little extra money, because naturally, poor Mom couldn't go alone and do everything. She gave me everything, l never had to be ashamed about my dress or anything. Imagine—I was the only one that used to wear shoes, and that’s why the shoe subject was such an important thing. And l went to St. Cyril’s School, and l stayed there until l graduated in 1916, from the 8th grade. Then l went down to St. Patrick’s, the high school there, and did my regular work. l took care of the paper route in the summer, in summer the Press, and in the morning I would get up early enough to go and pick up the Herald—remember the old paper? I’d be around the corner there, so—and we got along pretty good. My brother was a very fine [inaudible], like on the wall, like on the—
Anna: Plastic—
Michael: Plastic. And he was very good to us, especially to mother, and I know l got my first shoes from him, and he was good to me. We stayed up to my sister’s—she was very nice too—I roomed with my brother, and she had her own. And then he had to go to Albany, they had a big hotel or something. ‘Cause he was flying to meet—he took me to hear Paderewski in the old high school.
Anna: What?
Michael: Paderewski—the pianist, Ignacy Jan Paderewski, the world’s greatest pianist. And that was my first contact with coaching. They took me over to the State Armory over there, John McCormick sang—an enormous amount of people came, they got across to that old State Armory, where the Forum is now, that old big State Armory. l was just as big a rascal as anybody, let me tell you that l was no angel but l didn’t know better things, and then l went to high school, and l went for two years, after that Mother got very sick. After that l got work in Dunn McCarthy's as office boy, taking the cripples around the room and and later on got 15 dollars a week, then got 20 dollars a week, which could carry us on very nicely, and l worked there and kept on singing. Then we had a little money and l asked mother if I could go and study voice, I had a lot, l had two years of piano with Katherine O’Brian—you remember her—she used to give piano lessons by the Post Office. Bill Danek and a few others took piano lessons, l had two years of piano, and when I was working and had a little money I went to see Cecil Masten. Cecil was an awful good teacher, he was a very fine baritone and he used to do a lot of State work. He was on the corner of Main St. and Crestmont Rd., and it went along pretty good and, but my brother again went out and we didn't have too much of an income, and she got sick so I had to quit school. I was already 17, and I would sing in different choirs every time I got a chance to get in some hotel or something, I would get 4 or 5 dollars Saturday & Friday but we, I didn't know other things, so I continued my piano and after a while—St. Joseph Rangers were still here, and Miss Katherine Vinceyas, she was the organist. She had to have an operation on her appendix and she had to be out quite a while, so Father Scripo called Father Casmir, said, “Michael, you can play while she is out. Take over the job while she is out.” And that would give me 25 dollars a month, but that was pin money for me because I had my regular job. I went on and on, and after a while I was playing there on one second Easter, I was playing. And then they tore down the old church and built another one, and it wasn't painted or anything, and they had a mobile organ there, I was singing there and then Father Martincek—remember him? He left, and the Franciscan Fathers came to Father Cyril and Father Florian Billy, and I sang once in a while, but I sang in a little church which was Lithuanian, made a little money there, so I did this and Easter 8 o’clock mass, I played and sang in Lithuanian. I was very active in Languages, I sang, Father Scripo came from the altar, so Father Cyril was going to have the next mass, each had one mass because a lot of people in St. Cyril, Glenwood Ave., our Parish extended to Stella Ireland Road. He said to Father Cyril, “Who is that boy? He has a good voice, plays nice too but very good.” I went home and he shot right up to my house, which was right up the hill, and wanted to know why I didn't go to St. Cyril’s. I said, “Well, Father, they pay me and every penny counts, cost money, I like to study and it costs money, voice lessons and piano lessons. Father send Father Billy to ask me to take the job, then I said, “I know what, I’ll play for three months during the summer, I'll play and be an organist when school starts, 30 dollars a week.” The organist said he will pay the most, 75 dollars a month, 5 dollars for funerals, 3 dollars for weddings and 1 dollar Requiem mass—getting 75 dollars, that would bring the total to 150 dollars a month. All summer long I played, then when school started, I said to Father, “I got my old job in the factory, I was sample operator in the office, I was my own boss, I had to do them, nobody else could do them but me. That’s when I was making 35 to 40 dollars a week then,” I told them. “$75 a month,” Father Florian said. “How about it, Mike?” he said, “We will give you the job,” and on New Year’s Day $75 a week, 75 dollars. All the while I got active in the chamber of the concert staff, singing of concerts
Dan: You said you studied under Cycil Masten, but you also heard Ignacy Paderewsky?
Michael: Paderewsky, yeah. And also John McCormick, and also Anna Pavlova, and also the New York Philharmonic, Dr. Walter conducting. I took them all in, I took them water as favors, and I saw one thing, I would have to advance my education if I will get anywhere, and also keep on studying with Cecil Masten. I would take a lesson, once in a while, then Dr. Harold M. Neiber, organist in Christ Episcopal Church years ago—well anyway, he was the organist there, so I studied first organ with him, then I studied piano. Then he got a good job in New York, in a cathedral. I went to—Francis— [pause] He lived on, Saint, St. Mary’s Church—after 30 years I can’t think of his name. He lived on—what’s that street, on the corner of Main, where that church, that St. Mary’s church is?
Dan: Fayette.
Michael: Fayette. On the third house down. He had two daughters that were teachers.
Dan: It wouldn’t be O’Brian, would it?
Michael: No, no. I know Mr. O’Brian.
Dan: He had two daughters.
Michael: Yeah. Well he taught piano and his daughters [inaudible]. Well I went and studied with him, piano. I had two years with Dr. Harold Neiber, and then I had four years with—mmmmm—Francis? Frank? He was a very famous man in the ward. Right in your territory. [laughs]
Dan: Right in my territory and I can’t remember it. It was probably before my time.
Michael: No, that was about 1927.
Dan: I was pretty young then.
Michael: Francis, Francis.
Dan: I remember Casey.
Michael: Casey, he was an organist at St. Mary's Church, and he took Francis’s place, then he played in Endicott in St. Andrew’s, and Mr. Johnson paid for it. Well anyway I studied with him. And then—
Mrs. Harendza: Mr. O’Connor.
Michael: Francis O'Connor. [laughs] Thank you, Mama, very much. You best see him, you probably know more about it than I do. Then summer came along, I told Father Cyril, “I am going, Father. I am going to be an organist.” Sacred Heart in Manhattan. I’d spent four years and five summers—all summer courses—I came twice for my examination to get my certification, my license. And we got along very nice, [inaudible], I specialized in that. We got along fine, I was able to do a lot of nice things, we organized a nice choir at St. Cyril’s. We had, ah—I can show you all kinds of pictures, where are they? I continued working. I joined the American Field of Organists, and I was 16 in 1933 to 1936, we put on several concerts. We also, on Civic Music, over for the Board at the Chamber of Commerce. [inaudible]
So we all worked together. There were very nice women there, and so I went. [inaudible] And ever since then I have been very active, even to this day [inaudible] and I tell Helen, I said, “Helen, I'm not working and I’m not doing anything or teaching.” I said, “They gave me my bread and butter, and they made me the man that I am, and I got a good reputation.” I think you know that.
Dan: I do.
Michael: I don’t have to tell them. I always admire the Opera—the Tri-Opera Chorus and Symphony, the Ballet at Roberson I love, and also all the cultural things, I like them, they seem to do things for me. I went there for three summers, I got my supervisor thing down for three years, twice each, time down in St. Cyril’s, then I am going up in June ‘til the end of August. I took my examination and I got my first certificate, which was for teaching from 1st to the 5th grade, and I earned the 2nd year certificate, from 6th to 9th grade. That’s as far as I am going, because I didn't go to high school much.
Dan: Where did you get these Certificates from?
Michael: Pius X school in Manhattanville and Pius X . ‘Course we know these colleges, they know these schools, and this was connected with Manhattanville College in New York. This was Catholic, down all from Rome, and later on could earn [inaudible]. That was, I kept on working right along. Gave concerts, gave numerous concerts. I was active. [inaudible] And now that I am 76 years old I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, but I still, as you can see how my hands are, but I still, every Sunday at 7:30 I play the mass—by the altar I got a little Conn organ—and I sing with the people. The old Slovak hymns. And they sing and I love it.
Dan: Where is this?
Michael: St. Cyril’s, even now. Then Monday and Tuesday we have Novena's, and I play the 12 o’clock mass, and then we have the Novena's for Blessed Virgin Mary. Tuesday I play the 12 o’clock mass and Novena to St. Anthony. That’s the amount of work I do now, but before—
Mrs. Harendza: You play the funerals, too.
Michael: Huh?
Mrs. Harendza: You play the funerals.
Michael: [inaudible] Can you think of anything else?
Anna: What do you think of the changes in the church? That’s what I wanted to ask you.
Michael: The changes…well, I’ve been brought up on the very, very strict rules. If I dared and played the songs that we are singing now, I'd be excommunicated, but now it’s perfectly all right. What they want, the Church wants them to participate, [inaudible]. In some churches the Priest goes up and down, and that way they all do a little bit of it, but I got a good strong voice. [inaudible] I don’t agree to a lot of things on that score, because I am a Gregorian chant man all the way, and to me there's no music more beautiful than Gregorian chant. And these hymns—some of these Hymns are very beautiful, and I enjoy playing them, and these people never heard of—they’re practically all taken from the Methodist Hymnal, and all through the Presbyterian Hymnal and the Lutheran Hymnal. [inaudible]
Dan: At what age did you come over, did you immigrate, Professor? What age?
Michael: 5 years old. June 29th 1901, and 1907 we came.
Dan: And now do you carry the ethnic customs in everyday life that you brought over from the native land?
Michael: Yes, I think so. The younger generation, they don’t—there is no question of that—but where the family is…and they think of their past heritage, what they had in Europe…you can’t take that out of them.
Dan: No.
Michael: Any more than we could take the Irish out of you.
Dan: That’s right, that’s right.
Michael: And we feel the same way. And that is the reason that I’m playing there yet. You can’t get anybody that can sing and play the Slovak languages at the same time.
Dan: Right, right.
Michael: That’s about the only reason. I love my work very, very much.
Dan: Well, I’m glad that you are keeping active.
Anna: You still go to the old customs of Christmas and everything?
Michael: Yes, [inaudible]. And my daughter, she teaches in MacArthur School, and she graduated from Marywood. Her Bachelor’s Degree, and her Masters Degree was from Ithaca College. She teaches 7th and 8th grade in MacArthur School, and Michael, my son, he is studying in Catholic University. Here is his picture when he was in the Navy—pianist for the Navy, and accompanist, and also a concertmaster. So he's got his B.A. in—the, ah, Catholic University. He got his Masters in Composition, and now he is working for his Doctorate. But he’s got—
Mrs. Harendza: Perpetual student
Michael: He’s got maybe one or two visitations left, and maybe one or two concerts. [pause] Well, I told you. Well I got a couple of nice sins I have [laughs], and I won’t admit that to nobody.
Dan: We are not in a position to forgive you those, so you better tell those to a priest. [laughs] Anna, is there anything else that you'd like to add?
Michael: Did I cover the ground pretty good?
Dan: Very, very good. What ethnic customs do you carry on in your everyday life, Professor, you still carry on in your life?
Anna: Yeah.
Mrs. Harendza: Well, like Christmas Eve, and things like that.
Michael: We have the traditions.
Anna: You still go for the old tradition over the, ah—
Michael: We have the old tradition. We say our Grace in Slovak for each meal, and—naturally, being here so long already, they are more Americanized. They haven’t the love of the past that I have, because I was born there, and that’s why I am so loyal to that. But I want you to know that the people of St. Cyril’s treated me wonderful. They gave me a chance. Now I had the chance to go to St. Patrick’s as organist, and several other good prominent churches, but I couldn't—Father said, “You would get three times as much as I give you.”
“Father, when I was as green as green could be, you accepted me, the Franciscan Fathers accepted me, and our Slovak people accepted me also,” because I had a good voice and I was able to sing anything. I said, “Now that I got my credentials, I could go flying wherever I want.”
Anna: Professor, you know what I wanted to tell you. When I told somebody that I am going to interview you, they said, “Please tell the professor that there'll never be another one like him.”
Michael: Well, you see—
Anna: That’s right—I agree.
Michael: [inaudible]
Mrs. Harendza: Yeah, but you don’t really meet that kind of organist these days.
Dan: No you don’t. Not one that is dedicated, that—you got fine memories.
Michael: We used to have five hundred children in the school, they would march in every morning to the school—you’ve seen them, Anna.
Anna: Yeah.
Michael: [inaudible] We had those big masses, you know, and they’d get all the schools together, and I was the district manager and director. [inaudible/crosstalk] This would happen once every month.
Anna: Thank you, Professor Harendza.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mary Keeney
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of Interview: 16 December 1977
Susan: This is Susan Dobandi, interviewer, and I'm talking with Mary Keeney, who lives at 150 Chapin St., Binghamton, NY. The date is December 16, 1977. Mary, I'd like you to tell me something about your life in your early beginnings. Could you start with where you were born?
Mary: Yes, I was born in southern Pennsylvania, in York county in the country, and we lived there for about three years, then we moved to a little old town, Mechanicsburg—this was across the river from Harrisburg, about nine miles west in the Cumberland Valley which is a beautiful valley about 20 miles across where I lived. The land was—ah—limestone country, very ah productive, and the fields were acres and acres of wheat and corn and not—not large dairy ah herds but more farming. We lived in, usually, lived in about a six room house that was common for the poorer people and we had these six rooms, very comfortable but no conveniences, no hot water, cold water, no bath. No heating except with a range or cook stove and a heater if you wanted to heat the rest of the house. Bedrooms were pretty chilly.
We got along without bathrooms but it wasn't as bad as what one would think having that outside toilets because, being the limestone land, there was plenty of drainage underneath the town. It seemed like there were underground streams that carried off anything that would be—would sink down. To have an outside toilet they would dig down until they found a rock, underneath that rock there would be an opening. Many times they turned the firehose in there and flushed it out then built the outside toilet, which of course made the danger of wells, so they had to close up the wells. They were not used, they couldn't be used any more because of this underground sewage. The sewage system only carried of the surface water.
They—the town was—the people were very much under the influence of the Pennsylvania Dutch, which are not really Dutch but from Germany. The people came from different parts of Germany and they were different as they came from different parts of Germany. They would differ, as they came and for a long time I thought it was real Pennsylvania Dutch but I found out that it was not—not the true Pennsylvania Dutch as it's called now. Not so much.
Susan: Mary, did this influence your upbringing?
Mary: Yes.
Susan: Did this influence the way your parents raised you?
Mary: Yes.
Susan: And affected your schooling?
Mary: It did.
Susan: Tell us how.
Mary: Because they brought with them the German ways. Oh. And while it wasn't too marked difference they—but they were very class conscious, and so as you grew up there you were kind of classed—that what street you were living on—whether you lived on this side or that side of the tracks, if you mingled with this class or that class. And if you got in that class, you never got out of it no matter how successful you were. You were always considered that class. In school as you grew up, you were just kind of, ah, classed in the poorer class or the better class and it stayed that way.
I went to school and I liked it. I liked school very much, but it seemed pretty hard. We didn't have—we didn't have any playgrounds. We were always kept off the grass. Many times we were blown and reproved and scolded if we got on the grass. We had no recess, we had morning and afternoon session, hurried home at noon and right back. We had no half terms or two terms in the year. It was a whole year. Mine were nine months work, solid work, and when examinations time came in the spring, we had nine months work to review for our examinations. We had very little vacation. Work—our school opened in September and by Memorial Day, we were out. We didn't go after that.
I went to the high school, finished the first year and attended the second year until I was ready for my examinations. My father was ill and I had to help out in taking care of him. I was not at home, at that time. I was living with a lady as a companion, going to school, so I went home and
helped take care of him and I got back with my lessons.
The principal said, “You pass; take your examinations. If you pass in three studies, I'll put you over in the junior class,” but I knew he meant harder study and the doctor had just told me that I was studying too hard, that I should not try to finish high school. So I figured I had better not try. So I dropped out.
I couldn't take up any work—I wasn't strong enough, but I did have a friend that was living, working in Atlantic City. When I was eighteen and she was doing work among girls who would go down to Atlantic City expecting to pick up work almost overnight, then be stranded, needed a home, needed advice, needed protection and so there were reading and restrooms for these girls and, but the doors had to always be open. So this friend of mine who was working there who was a graduate nurse asked me to go down and work with her, which was very interesting work. No salary promised, but all my needs were supplied and I had a very interesting life which I enjoyed so much. While there the lady who was the national president of this Florence Crittenton Association came there to look over the work in Atlantic City. She met me. She liked me. She liked my work and gave me a scholarship to go to their training school in—in Washington, D.C. So without any money (ha) I started and I found my way down there alone, not being used to traveling, but I—I found my way and began my work there.
They claimed that it was a year’s work crowded into six months. It was a specializing on obstetrical nursing but it included general lectures on general nursing, children’s diseases, ethics of nursing and two Bible studies. We just had day and night duties and many times I was on duty more than a half of that time because I had to fill out for a nurse to be off one day a week, so I got very tired, but the lectures that I received and the and the practical work which we jumped into immediately, instead of cleaning floors and so on as they did in those days, I did crowd in quite a little ah training.
I think I was just naturally…I, I liked nursing, and so after I came home I didn't start nursing but people kept asking and I gradually worked into practical nursing in private homes. What?
Susan: Then you came to—talk about when you came to Binghamton and started raising your family, and what were things like then.
Mary: I came in 1907, but I went back, and then I had a friend who wanted me to nurse her when she was expecting her third baby. I came then; I was on the case, and when the doctor came he was asking some questions and he wanted to be sure, how did I know this or that, and I showed my chart and he said, “Oh, I can give you work most any time.” From that I went—I stayed on
and kept working, and I got more calls than I could fill. I, I worked at that about four years and a half. I met my future husband and we got married when I was 34.
Susan: What neighborhood was this in, Mary? At the time, here in Binghamton? Where did you live at that time?
Mary: At West Windsor—
Susan: Oh.
Mary: —with this friend. They had a grocery store, and instead of resting when I would go off a case, I would go up there. I worked in the house, I worked in the store, and the man who owned the store was Treasurer of the Telephone Company. Had the books, so I would catch up on the books, so I never got a great deal of rest.
Susan: Tell us about when you were here in Binghamton.
Mary: Then when I got married I first went to Vestal for a few years but then we moved back to—we moved to Binghamton. That was, oh, about ‘25—1925. My hou—my life was my home life.
Susan: Your home was your life.
Mary: Yes, I didn't want to work, a doctor begged me to do work for him, but I said I was—I wanted my home life. I enjoyed it. I was happy. Of course, those days we were living comfortably.
Susan: Your husband was in business here in Binghamton? Your husband was in business?
Mary: Yes, he was…well, a carpenter. At first he was working—he had worked for E-J a good many years, but he was gifted. He was a carpenter and he went into business for himself, so he was building homes, and of course during the Depression he was doing a great deal of repair work because they we were glad of any kind of work during the Depression.
Susan: Can you tell us anything about the change in the city from the time you first came as against now? Did they have the trolley cars when you were here?
Mary: Yes, they had trolley cars and I can remember when they last—they made the last trips. They draped some of the trolleys with crepe and that was the last trip that they made when the buses came.
Oh. I…the War - the First and Second War - they didn't affect me a great deal. I was working at nursing during the First World War. The Second World War, of course my husband didn't have to go. My stepson didn't have to go. He didn't pass the physical and my son didn't get—he wasn't old enough to go until the last end, so that he enlisted twice but he wasn't in—a—he didn't get overseas.
Susan: Now, I know that you’re not very much up on the Feminist Movement, but can you tell us anything about the Suffragette Movement in your days? When you were growing up?
Mary: No, I didn't seem to get into contact with that. I think it was because I was so satisfied with my home life, and I thought that being a housewife and a mother was just about the height of happiness, and I thought to be a mother, to be able to be queen of your own house and home, you had to learn how to cook well. You had to learn how to sew. You had to learn how to take care of the children when they were sick. I thought it was very challenging and I liked it. I think I would not trade for any—ah—outside interests, if I just could have…be queen in my own home.
Susan: You were telling me the other day about some of your experiences when your mother sent you to the dry goods store. Could you describe one and a little trip that you made to the store so that people will have some idea?
Mary: Yes.
Susan: And your experience with that little…at?
Mary: The dry goods stores. They—they sold a great many things, of course. All kinds of yard goods on the first floor. On the second floor they had furniture and furnishings for the home. Window shades, curtains and things like that. The people did a great deal of sewing in those days and one day we came home from school. Mother had been to this store and when we came into the house she said, “Girls, I want you to go up to—up to Allcott’s,” that was the name of the dry goods store. She said, “They have something there that's very interesting,” and she tried to describe it. We couldn't imagine.
We went up—we went into the back of the store on the first floor. And there they had a gramophone, with the records and a great big horn and the sounds coming out of this horn were unbelievable. We couldn't imagine where they came from. Some of the kids said, “Oh it must be down in the basement coming up some way,” and that was my first experience with the gramophone, and of course those were the days before radio and those were the days before many things. We had no refrigeration, electric refrigeration. They had cut out, they would cut the ice from the river during the winter months. It seemed we had very cold weather at that time. Then they would pack this ice in sawdust in buildings and would sell it during the summer. It was always amazing to me how that ice would stay from winter until summer and still not melt away.
Those who could afford it, the ice wagon drawn by horses came through every day. You could buy a 25 block piece or 50, but most of the people depended on their cellars. We didn't call them basements - they were cellars with dirt floors, and perhaps because of the underground waters or streams, they kept cool. We kept our milk and butter and things down in the cellar. No, there was no heat in there, just our canned goods. Everybody canned because you couldn't get fresh fruits and vegetables. You either had them canned or you buried them and they buried cabbages, carrots, parsnips and so on—and would dig them out and we canned fruit and preserved a great many. We had to get along from one season to another that way.
Fire engines were drawn by horses too, and I'd like to tell you a story. After they, the fire engines did not need horses anymore, they, somebody who owned a great big wagon or, we didn't call them trucks, would haul coal. They were heavy which needed two horses, one of the owners bought two fire horses to draw the—this wagon of coal and it, I heard that if they would hear a little gong ring, they would run. Just why they started this day I don't know. I was sitting, looking out the window where an alley came up into a dead end, not actually a dead end but a jog, and they were coming right straight for my window, and I knew they were coming too rapidly to make the turn and got up and ran to the far end of the room and held my face, waiting for the crash, when they made the turn it would hit our house but I didn't hear it—so—I went out. They did make the turn by coming up the sidewalk, and one horse’s shoe mark was left on the step but they made the turn, went down about half a block, turned into Main Street and stopped at a fire hydrant. But—I went out rather shaky. A doctor from the corner came up and looked over to see what they had done. He said, “They left a shoe mark right on your step; if you had your door open they'd have walked right in.” [chuckles]
But our coal was delivered that way, just like the ice. It went down the chute in the cellar. We didn't have gas. We had, we had to cook on a cook stove, but they had—many of the houses had what they call a chimney corner instead of a fireplace. It was a chimney corner that you could shove your cook stove or range inside, do your cooking and a little—it was a little—it was ah, er…awkward. But you could do it, and then afterwards close the doors and that heat would stay. It was not…you wouldn't need to bear the heat from the stove. Sometimes, they had a little summer kitchen they could move into.
Broome County Oral History Collection
Interview with: Mrs. Anna Jewell
Interviewed by: Wanda Wood
Date of interview: 27 December 1977
Wanda: This is Wanda Wood, interviewing Anna Jewell of 171 Robinson Street, Binghamton. The date is December 27, 1977. Mrs. Jewell, you have lived around—
Anna: That was when we lived over on the other side of the river. I told you over the phone - I was just a little bit of a girl, but I remember when we went to school. We lived over there about eight years on that farm, and that was owned by—then—by E.W. Conklin. And, uh...um, my father superintended that farm. 'Course there was no Sunrise Terrace then—that was all farmland through there. And, uh, then he fell into a better job—the same kind of job—with Mr. Ely, who was a wholesale grocer.
Wanda: Was that Mills Ely?
Anna: S. Mills Ely. Here in Binghamton. And he owned that Honey Bee Farm—what was then the Honey Bee Farm. 'Course he's dead years ago...and we lived there - as I said, I lived there, I guess about eleven years—ten or eleven—then I got married. Ah. [clears throat]
Wanda: That was quite a showplace, wasn't it?
Anna: We lived in that big house up there and that—the house—there used to be a water tank there between the two houses, but I guess that's gone now. I think I didn't remember seeing it the last time I was up that way. And there was—let's see—one, two, three, four, five—five houses that belong on that farm. The big one where we lived and then the hired men, then in the—a what used to be the old pickle factory—years—'course I—it wasn't when I was up there. It was before that—ah—my father had a man—married man living in there—a hired man and he lived in one end of that. The other end was the creamery where they made—they made the first pasteurized milk that was ever sold in Binghamton. And—um—I think he sold it for something like ten cents a quart and people thought that was terrible—(laughter)—imagine buying a quart of milk today for ten cents.
Wanda: That was in the building down over the hill there that's gone, wasn't it?
Anna: That was what?
Wanda: That was in that building that was down over the edge of the hill?
Anna: Yes—yes—that used to be—the end toward Chenango Street used to be a pickle factory.
Wanda: Oh.
Anna: They made pickles there, in fact there was some there when we first moved there—big vats of them—and uh—but it wasn't running when we moved there. And he had a man that did the creamery work. Made—churned butter and pasteurized the milk and bottled it and everything like that—milk and cream. And they ran two milk wagons and they had a lot of customers in Binghamton that bought it. They used to sell mostly to the lawyers and doctors and professional men. And uh—oh they used to think it was a terrible price—ten cents a quart.
Wanda: Delivered.
Anna: An awful price.
Wanda: How long did you live there?
Anna: My folks lived there—um—lemme see—gee I don’t remember—oh my father bought a—he lived there in a—oh I can't tell you the year now—and uh he went down to what was then called Union—it's West Endicott today—and bought a farm. And he didn't know anything but farming. He farmed it all his life. Come from a family of farmers. He had four brothers and they were all farmers. And uh—good ones, too, I might add.
Wanda: They must have been.
Anna: And uh well, he used to help in the creamery some himself but they had all kinds of machinery there to—in those days you know it was really quite something ya know, ‘cause you didn’t find that very many places.
Wanda: The machinery, you mean?
Anna: Yeah, to bottle the milk and all of that. Oh, I don't know as there's anything else of any great interest. This Mr. Ely—they used to be a tower up on uh, I think they called it Mount Prospect in those days. You know the big tall tower up there that he owned. It was—they called it Ely tower and now they have converted it into a—places to rent—they have apartments and I guess maybe some people have bought places there but it was quite a job to get up there. I have a granddaughter that's living there—she just moved there a few months ago and she likes it.
Wanda: That's what became Ely Park later?
Anna: Yes. That was—it's called Ely Park now—her address is—ah—apartment something or other, Ely Park—Ely Park Apartments and uh I think the government owns some of them. I just don't understand about it but uh—I know she did live over at Chenango Bridge and she had quite a nice apartment there but she had to move because—the man wouldn’t do anything. He kept raising the rent, he wouldn't do anything and uh the toilet was 'bout ready to go through the floor and the water leaked and oh my she had an awful time, so she got a place up there.
Wanda: Well this Mr. Ely was quite an influential man in Binghamton at that time, wasn't he? Didn't he own lots of—
Anna: He had a big wholesale store—groceries. He was a wholesaler in addition to owning this farm and I guess—he lived on Henry Street. I don't know whether he owned any property in Binghamton or not. I never did know about that, but my father liked him very much. He was awful good to him.
Wanda: What was it like growing up on a farm when you were a little girl? What did you have to do?
Anna: Well, I didn’t know anything else then. I wouldn't want to go back to it today but—uh—I liked it. When we lived on the other side of the river I was just a little bit of a kid. I was only two and a half when my people come here and of course I—later on when I got old enough to go to school I went to Oak Street School. The kids today, ya know, think they're killed if they can’t—can't have a bus to ride on. If they have to go half a mile or so they have to get on a bus, but—
Wanda: How did you get to school?
Anna: I walked it.
Wanda: To Oak Street?
Anna: Except when it was stormy and bad weather my father would take me because—uh—and you spoke about that hotel on the corner of Prospect Street. It's still there as far as I know but it's a gas station today. But in those days it was a—a—a saloon. And uh—I used to be scared to death to go by there when I was afoot and alone, 'cause I was the only one—well they was a boy that lived about a half mile below me that used to go to school, but uh—he didn't very often go with me. Once in a while he would, but uh—most of the time I walked it and I remember one night I was goin' home and I always was delighted to get by that place because if there was anything that I was deathly afraid of it was a drunken man. And this one night—that's the only time I ever knew it to happen—he came out and uh—he saw me coming and he started for me and I—didn't know a soul there, not—well I did when I got up a little farther—I knew a couple of people then, but I thought if I'd just make that house up there I'll run in there until he gets out of sight but he saw me go the other way and he was so drunk he couldn't hardly stand up, so he didn't bother me at all. But you know when they're drunk like that you never know what they will do and uh I thought now if I can just get up to that house I knew the people that lived there. My uncle and aunt lived there in one side of it and uh—two elderly ladies lived in the other part but—uh finally I guess he decided he'd go on and wouldn't molest me. So I waited 'til he got pretty near out of sight and then I started home. I had another half mile to go.
Wanda: Boy that's scary.
Anna: I don't know what ever become of him but I didn't see any more of him.
Wanda: Remember that pond that was Cutler's Pond? That was part of the Conklin farm, wasn't it?
Anna: What—
Wanda: The pond that became Cutler's Pond?
Anna: Oh Cutler's—that was on the Cutler property.
Wanda: Oh that wasn't part of your farm?
Anna: That was just above where we lived there—the next farm. Yes, I used to a—I think it was John Cutler that lived up there. Ah—and he had a brother that lived across the street and um kids used to skate on that pond. ‘Course I was never allowed to skate. My mother was afraid the ice would break and I'd drown. She almost drowned when she was a little young girl and she was—never—she would never let my sister or I swim or skate or be around the water at all. So—we never knew what those pleasures were. I used to love to watch other people do it.
Wanda: Then—a—you finished your schooling at Oak Street, did you?
Anna: I went to Oak Street fo—’til I was in the fifth grade I think about—well they didn't have any kindergarten in those days, you know. It was calls the first grade when you started. I was probably six when I started because I was sick a lot when I was a little youngster and I think I was around six when I was there. And they called it the baby class—no kindergarten—baby class—and uh—I think I can remember the teacher I had—I think her name was—what was her name? What was it? But a—the Principal of the school, her name was Morey and they were—she was very very—she was a stickler to have everybody vaccinated in the school and my father would not have my sister or I vaccinated. He just, I don't know why, but he just wouldn't have it. So she came in about once a—every week or two—wanted to know if I'd been vaccinated. I said, “I've told ya every time you've been in here that I'm not vaccinated and I probably won't be,” but she'd still come and ask me.
Wanda: Did you ever get vaccinated?
Anna: Oh yes, yes, when I got to be a teenager. Then my sister and I both—oh and did mine work—oh I had the sorest arm and I was sicker'n a dog, but it sure did work, but 'course that was—I was all through at Oak Street then. I was probably about 13 or 14 and I was living in Port Dick and uh going to Port Dick School.
Wanda: Where was the school then in Port Dick?
Anna: Up on a—I believe it was River Street. You know I don't know how long you've been—
Wanda: Toward the mill? Anna: Down toward the Mill Street—that way?
Anna: Yeah. Yeah. The first street this side of the mill. The other side from here—is called Grant. And uh—the school was just about at the head of that street—off to that direction—school was at that time and uh—it was just two rooms was all there was of the school—one big room and a smaller room where the primary children went but of course I went into the fifth or sixth grade when I got up there because I'd already done—I would think I was in the fifth grade when I left Oak Street and went there.
Wanda: Do you remember what you studied then?
Anna: In Port Dick? History—physiology—they call it “hygiene” today but in those days it was physiology and I hated it. English—arithmetic ah—ah—that was about it, I guess. I don't
remember anything else. I love arithmetic. I was never any good in it but I loved it—oh it was my favorite subject, but I hated physiology. I hated history. Oh geography—yes I loved that. I was always good in geography. Geography and English were—and spelling—were my best subjects. I could spell anything. Still can. (chuckles).
Wanda: Good for you.
Anna: I think it's worth quite a bit to be a good speller. A lot of people are smart otherwise but can't spell.
Anna: That's true. So you got married when you were living in Port Dick?
Anna: I was about—oh past twenty-one when I got married and my people still live up there in Port Dick and uh—we got married and lived—we went to housekeeping up on what is now Blanchard Avenue above here. It was called Fremont in those days. That's seventy-some years ago.
Wanda: Were there many houses around there then?
Anna: Not near as many as there are now. There was—that big house on the corner was there. And there was a—three or four on the side. We lived on the side toward town but they've built up an awful lot since we were here. That—we only lived there about three months. We didn't like it—so we got an—you could get an apartment in those days. But today you can't hardly find one, but we heard of this one on Green Street. We moved down there and we lived there 3 years and probably would have lived there a lot longer, but the man that owned it wanted the rooms for his son. And uh—he waited ‘til I got my housecleaning all done (laugh) and then he come over and told me one day he wanted me—he wanted to—he would like to have the rooms. I said, ""Thanks a lot. That’s very nice of you."" (laughter). Oh I never—I never was so provoked with anybody in my life. He knew I had cleaned that house. We had a garden too—we had a garden growing. We had that partly planted. And uh—then we moved over on Sturges Street.
Wanda: What did your husband do then?
Anna: Hmm?
Wanda: What did your husband do when you were married?
Anna: He worked in a—let me see—when we were married he worked to Babcock’s then late in years he went in business for himself—motor—outboard motor business. He had a store and uh—had a store up here on Chenango Street for a long time and they outgrew that and they moved over up here on Upper Court and that's where they were when he died in ‘61.
Wanda: He was connected with Babcock's for many years, wasn't he? I think Al told that.
Anna: Yes quite a few—I can't tell you just how many now. I don't remember, but he worked there quite a while before we were married. And then after we were married he was there quite a while—probably seven, eight, nine years something like that—I guess—before he went in business for himself. Oh—he sold motorcycles first. He went in a—had a motorcycle store in State Street right across from the old Bennett Hotel and 'course they kinda went out, you know—not so many people were riding them. Then he got into this motor and boat business. He did pretty good with that—sold Johnson motors and boats.
Wanda: Do you remember the old motorcycles? Did you ride with him?
Anna: There was a man—a guy by the name of Carver that sold another type of motorcycle and if he could knife my husband he'd do it, every time. He'd get around people, you know, and tell them just how much better his machine was and oh he was—he'd even lie to sell something. He was that type. And then he got in the boat and motor business and there was another guy did the same thing to him. They seemed to be after him for some reason. But he did pretty good with that. Oh I don't know—we lived in several different places before we finally bought a place on Judson Street and we lived there forty, forty-one, let's see—we moved there in, ah, ‘21. In 1921 we moved there and I left there a year after my husband died and he died in ‘61 and I stayed 'til the following July in ‘62. And then I went up on Bevier Street and my, ah, this son—and—uh—three—three of his children.
Wanda: Well let's see what can we—uh oh I was wondering if you would ah—if you can remember contrasts about keeping house and keeping your—cooking and doing your household duties. What was it like?
Anna: Well I kept it just like anybody else would, I guess.
Wanda: What did you have to work with when you were young?
Anna: Oh you mean machinery? Not much of anything at first. Ah—'course that was—ah—when I was first married, we never heard of electric cleaners, you know, we didn't have such things. But I finally had one of those—wore one out and got another one. And uh I guess that's about it. I never had anything like an electric dishwasher or…I washed my dishes by hand all my life and still am. Ah—I can't think of anything else. I got tired of sweeping—oh I swept with a broom a good many years, before I got a sweeper. We didn't have too much money, you know. And I had to go kinda easy. But soon's we could afford it we got a cleaner. In fact I had two or three. I'd wear one out 'n’ have to get another one.
Wanda: How many children did you have?
Anna: Just two. Two boys. The one that lives in Florida and this one here.
Wanda: Well I imagine Binghamton has changed quite bit since you used to shop downtown—I say I imagine Binghamton's changed quite a bit downtown?
Anna: Oh yes. You know I don't know where I am—I haven't been down—I couldn't tell you when I've been downtown. I can't remember. But anytime I have been down I didn't know where I was. It's all so different where the Arena is there and the Marine Midland Bank and all those buildings. It looks so different some way to me. It don't look natural. And I s’pose when they get this—uh—mall—if they ever do—it'll look very different then than what it does now. I think it'd be a fine thing. Just because I'm old I can't have a—I try to keep up with the times. I don't let my brain wither away. (laughter).
Wanda: Good. good. You don't live in the past, do you?
Anna: No. No. What good does it do to live in the past? The past is gone. I have very pleasant memories, but a, other than that I—I had a very good husband. He was always very good to me. They wasn't anything he wouldn't get for me, and trouble with him he couldn't always afford it. (chuckle). We had to do without.
Wanda: Well that doesn't hurt sometimes, does it?
Anna: His people lived up at Chenango Bridge.
Wanda: Now that was the Jewell that lived in the old Macomber house, right?
Anna: No. Brick. The old brick house that used to be up there. I don't know how long you've lived up around there, but—
Wanda: All my life.
Anna: Oh, have you?
Wanda: Most of it, yeah.
Anna: Well do you remember the brick house then just this side the railroad bridges there?
Wanda: Oh yes yes.
Anna: That's where they lived.
Wanda: Oh yes.
Anna: They used to come down 'n’ get my older son, he was their first grandchild and did they worship him. Oh boy he could do no harm now I'm telling you. But this one they never—well his grandfather died when he was only—he don't even remember him. He say he can faintly remember him, but I doubt that he would—just a little past two when he died but the other boy was three years older and he of course remembers him. And uh—his grandfather used to come down and get him, take him up there. He was the only grandchild they had, the first and only, and boy you think they didn't worship and adore him. And he was so good—he was an awful good kid so—ah—he used to have—used to drive a wagon. They called it “Pickle Wagon.” I don't know where they ever got that name for it, but the seat was high and he'd get that little fella, he was about three at the time. I didn't—I didn't like to have him come up and go up there but—uh—his grandfather and grandmother wanted him—so I couldn’t be mean, you know. I'd let him go. So they'd be driving out the street and he was such a little fellow and my father-in-law was big—he weighed 280-some pounds before he was sick, and you can imagine, and the seat was high like this, you know, and that little fellow sittin' beside him—now if that wasn't a picture.
Wanda: What was your maiden name?
Anna: Haney, H-A-N-E-Y. That—you don't hear it very often. I guess there's one or two here in town, I don't know whether they're related, if they are I don't know, very distantly. My relatives all lived in Pennsylvania. 'Course I don't have many left anymore. I've got two cousins that live up in Elizabeth Church Manor. I've got another cousin that lives on the south side—on Park Ave—and I've got one in Vestal and one in Ithaca and that's the extent of my relatives. So I'm glad I've got a big family.
Wanda: Yes, it's a blessing.
Anna: That kind of keeps me going, ya know, I'd probably if I didn't have anybody like that around I'd probably just lay down and die. (laughs).
Wanda: They keep you sharp, don't they?
Anna: Oh—I love to have them come. And those kids are such good kids—awful good kids.That little Chrissy is something. Boy am I crazy about him. He talks to me over the phone once in a while.
Wanda: He talks like an old man.
Anna: And Allan, if Allan’s home, and if he isn't Sandy usually gets him, and the last time I called up I think I talked to Allan and he said, “Wait a minute, Gram,” he said, “You wanna talk to Chrissy?”
I said, “I'd love to.”
So he came to the phone and he said ah, “Hello Grandma.”
I said, “Hi, Chrissy,How are you?'
“Fine.” So just before he left the phone he said, “I love you,Grandma.”
I said, “Well that's nice to know. I love you, too.” (chuckle). I think his father put him up to it. (laughter).
Wanda: He's so smart.
Anna: Aw he's a cute little thing.
Wanda: Did you ever work before you were married?
Anna: Hmm?
Wanda: Did you ever work before you were married?
Anna: Yes—I worked in a—oh I worked in Barrett Brothers’ music store for about 2 or 3 years and every winter I worked in the City Treasurer's office in getting out the tax bills. Typing them. I worked there fourteen years. Just a couple of weeks in the wintertime when the—January, you know. Coldest part of the year of course, always.
Wanda: That was where? In the courthouse?
Anna: That was about it, I guess. Oh, I worked in the church office up here. I'm a member of the North Presbyterian Church and I worked there in the office about 8 years, I think. Just afternoons, but that was it. And—my father and mother came and lived with us after—oh—after we bought the place on Judson Street. So of course I had a place to leave my two boys. But they were quite a good size by that time. And a—I'd go down and take—the minister lived on the same street—he lived there on Judson Street and I'd stop in there and take dictation and then I'd go down and get out the letters or whatever he had for me to do.
Wanda: Well you were a secretary then? Where did you learn to do that?
Anna: Oh, I took a course in Lowell Business School years ago.
Wanda: Oh.
Anna: When I was about eighteen, I guess I was then. And that's a long time ago.
Wanda: That's something that's changed a lot over the years, isn't it?
Anna: Oh yes, 'course there's none of them alive that was in there then. Mr.—the Bloomer—Mr. Bloomer was the Principal or whatever you call him. And a—his daughter was one of the teachers—and seems to me he had a son that was in it too in some—he had quite a family. He had two or three daughters and a couple or three sons. Five or six children he had. They're all dead and gone, I guess.
Wanda: What kind of typewriters did you have then?
Anna: Remington.
Wanda: Big—tall things?
Anna: Yeah. Remington mostly. That's what they had mostly there in the school. And—um—I think maybe a few Royals and—a—what's that other one? Ah—it begins with “S”—can't think of the name of it now. That's an old make. They had some of those but I never—I always worked on a Remington because I was—they were easier to operate and I got used to them and I liked them.
Wanda: Did you do—a—bookkeeping? Or anything else?
Anna: No, I never had any bookkeeping. I just did the—I took shorthand and typing, was all I took. I was always kinda sorry I didn't take bookkeeping because in those days you could get a better job. I mean more money if you could do both, but I never took it up.
Wanda: Do you remember how much you worked for in those days?
Anna: How much what?
Wanda: How much your pay was, the week or a month.
Anna: I think in Barrett's—I think it was—ah, something like twelve dollars a week. And—a—when I was at the church—ah—I was paid by the hour. I don't remember what I got there.
Wanda: But that was a pretty good wage for a woman, wasn't it—then?
Anna: Well it was—nothing today. It'd be nothing today—you couldn't even live on it and when I—when I typed tax bills ah—'course I never was the speediest of them, but I tried to be accurate and not make too many mistakes, because that's really what counts in that business, y'know. Those tax bills have to be absolutely all right. And mine were. I made very few mistakes because they put me in Checking. The last two or three years I was there. They have—all have to be checked to make sure they're absolutely correct 'fore they're ever mailed out. ‘Course now they have—a—machines, I guess that—uh—put them out. They don't have the extra help anymore.
Wanda: Was that—did you work in the old courthouse then?
Anna: No, I worked at City Hall up—ah—up on the second floor it was. Yeah. Oh I loved it there. I used to look forward to that—just like a party to me. Got me out, ya know, and away from home and I'd go to lunch with the girls and—which I couldn't do when I was home. And it was a change 'n’ I really looked forward to it every year. The only part I didn't like was getting out so early in the morning and waitin' around for streetcars. I've forgot what year I went there. I had a niece that worked there, and she had a steady job there. She worked there quite some time. But I think I was there before she was. I think I—I had a friend that had charge of the typists and the checking and all that kind of work and so she got—uh—put in a good word for me and I got in there. I worked there fourteen years so I guess my work was all right.
Wanda: I guess so.
Anna: 'Bout two or three weeks every winter. Coldest part of the winter—in January—uh—no it was in December 'cause they had to get their taxes out by the first of January, you see.
Wanda: And that was the County tax office?
Anna: No, the City. It was all City. Then—uh—I think the last couple years I was there I checked. So that give me a little longer job. I was there an extra week or so in that. They put me in that. I love typing. I just used to love it. I couldn't—I'd—today I'd have to do what they call the hunt and peck system. (laughter). Hy son's got a typewriter here and—I—well, haven't tried it but I know I wouldn't have any speed. I haven't touched a typewriter in years.
Wanda: Well, if you were accurate once you probably would still be just as accurate.
Anna: Well I couldn't do any other way. I can't do anything slipshod when I know figures, ya know, have to be accurate. Tax bills had to be right to the penny. And—uh—filing—I did filing too. And if you think that isn't something—the First Ward over there on Clinton Street, names this long, ohhh—what names—terrible—and they've got to be alphabetically filed and let me tell you, you've got to stop to study—you've got to know your alphabet good. (laughs). Oh I used to love—I used to love it down there. I hated to—I hated to see the time come when I was through and didn't have any more work ’til next year. It would only be about two or three weeks. Well, when I checked and filed and did that I had more work to do. I was there maybe a week or two longer then, but just typing—we were all through in a couple of weeks. 'Course they'd have about—probably eight girls typing all the same time, and let me tell you it was something to hear those typewriters all buzzing around there.
Wanda: Then your work at the music store was secretarial stuff too—writing letters and that?
Anna: Well I guess that was what you'd call it. The church work was more on that order. And they got out a letter every once a month. They used to have a big men's class up there. They had about a hundred members in those days. That’s back in the twenties—and uh—I had all those letters to mail out. I got the—oh they had a mimeograph—so it wasn't so bad to get the letters out, 'cause I'd put them right through that in no time. But I had the envelope to address and that took quite a while. But I liked it—I—was very happy with it, I worked for two different ministers. The one man left or got another charge somewhere else, or didn't he retire? I've forgotten which now. Then this other younger man came, I worked for him a while too.
Wanda: Did you help with your husband's business too?
Anna: Yes. I used to write letters for him, but at home—I had one of those little folding typewriters at home he bought me, and uh—I used to write his letters quite often for him.
Wanda: Well you were quite a career girl, weren't you?
Anna: Well I don't know as you'd call me a career girl. We moved around a lot until we bought that place on Judson Street. We were married in 1908 and we didn't buy that place till ‘21. And in those thirteen years I wanna tell you, we moved a few times. Oh my—I never got so sick and tired of moving in my life. We lived on—well as I told you—started on Fremont Ave., Green Street, and then Sturges, and Ogden. Then we moved on Chenango Street. My uncle bought a two-family house up there on Chenango Street and we lived downstairs there when my boys were small. And uh—let's see, I don't know where else we lived—oh Moffitt Ave., two years. Oh my—I tell you I was glad to get a place where I could stay and I stayed there 41 years on Judson Street. And I probably would still a’ been there, but they took the street, you know, and put an overhead through there. And why they took that street I'll never know, because Sturges Street is a much older street. The houses on that street are all—almost all old. Cary Street is old. But no, they had to take Judson.
Wanda: So you had to sell then?
Anna: Hmmm?
Wanda: Is that why you had to sell your house?
Anna: Did I what?
Wanda: You had to sell your house because of the road?
Anna: Ahm—they took the—they take you for your property. The State. Or whoever put the road through, or overhead. But ah—I said I don't know why they had to go through this street. Oh dear I hated to leave there. After you live in a place forty years, ya know, it begins to seem like home. That's the longest I ever lived anywhere. Went right straight through from 1921 to 1962, and that's 41 years. Oh I loved it and I knew everybody there and they's lovely people. I— awful nice ones—over here you—I don't know a living human being to speak to except my landlady on the other side. There’s nobody around here. They don't neighbor—this is a bridal shop on this side—a dentist across the street—church on this corner 'n’ the chicken house and the shoe repair shop down here. Now there's nothing around here, it's really a business section and I said to somebody not long ago, I said, “I never lived in a place where I just couldn't neighbor with people and didn't know anybody, as this place.” There used to be a lady that lived next door here that was very friendly—very nice—but she got—uh—I think she developed arthritis or something and doctor told her she'd have to go where she didn’t have to go up and down stairs. But she had the duplex—she's on the second floor over here. But she lived there. Now—now they rent the two top floors. There’s two floors up there. And uh—the downstairs is all the wedding shop. I guess they cater more to bridal gowns than anything.
Wanda: How old are you now, Mrs. Jewell?
Anna: How?
Wanda: How old are you now?
Anna: How old am I? I was 91 last October.
Wanda: Yeah? Well you've had quite a life so far, haven't you?
Anna: Oh I—well I—I can't tell.
",,,,"47:48 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Anna Jewell",,,,1977-12-27,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Jewell, Anna -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Farmers -- Interviews; Farms -- Interviews; Motorcycle industry; Typists; Port Dickinson (N.Y.); S. Mills Ely; Dairy Farms; Pickle factory; Honey Bee Dairy Farm",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1fc5cb98e5e20a393228b8d91d830d9c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4b8bfb4c95c2fb7bb0eaf5ecd2e63bd9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4da3534856566b6e5b0199496c896ce0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/94ea0dc4746b97018ce684683420fbbd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1a839aa1b035cbe3abcb60bfbd330ead.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e7391b5d11e464fb89b81d1923ed27a7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4b0bbc28b7eff9b296f1dd37fd9f0adf.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8f39e1745ebdac5e5e45701787564ef7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0a2eaa04ca22ff656edf0233b8848c1d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f6bf05231fb86dfc5ce485467e0e9cc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3105f9e040a2fa9048c0c699edf75db3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e69a9ac251f032481455293a0b330d28.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b54fc6fa28ac6b41e062b3a81765cc12.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ca7f8d3d0c8cea8338203f9b850db8a0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/093735813cd84c697634da3437cc9ba4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/06c1704a6022bf8d03167beedbce6736.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c9aa83c31ae1ba7fe6b839544931f46b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/082bc68a6590dc2a5cf37818e5368a0b.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 512,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/512,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"46:03 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Andrew Goida",,"Goida, Andrew ; Politylo, Nettie",,audio/mp3,"Goida, Andrew -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cigar industry; Depressions -- 1929; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Ansco Company; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Housing Program","Andrew Goida talks about working in a cigar factory in Binghamton, NY. He mentions that his brother and mother both worked there and details his specific job as a leaf-wetter at the cigar factory, which was in the building later owned by Ansco Company. He discusses the Great Depression and how it affected his ability to work and job availability around Binghamton. He found work at the Endicott Johnson Shoe Company. He also discusses his children's employment.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-01-02,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 28",,"Politylo, Nettie","Goida, Andrew",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Andrew Goida
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Date of interview: 2 January 1978
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Andrew Goida at 713 Dickson St., Endicott, NY, on January 2, 1978. I understand you worked in a cigar factory here in Binghamton some years ago. We are especially interested in this industry because we don't know much about it. Why don't we start with the time you started work there? Just tell me how you got the job, what you did, what other people did to prepare the tobacco and make the cigars and just everything you remember about the operation of the factory. Andy, do you want to start talking?
Andy: Well, I'll give the—when I got started—about in 1927, and what, we went, I got a job—what the stop—the tobacco—then we used to lay it out to dry—a little bit—we didn't wet it too much—just lay it out to dry a little bit—then we—it was our job to give it to the women on the machine so they would roll the cigars—so they would have to stretch it in the drum—the leaf—and they used to use the other—the ones we didn't wet the tobacco to the inside—break that and roll that one leaf on a drum and just roll—wrap the cigar up and then would cut them so long. And there were lots of women—young and old, different kind were working.
Nettie: What was exactly your job?
Andy: My job was supposed to wet the tobacco—in our room where I worked—there were 3 vats of water and we used to dip them in the water a little bit and shake them around so the tobacco would get nice and soft—it wouldn't crack up or anything like that. And they were making White Owl cigars and what other cigars, I don’t know—and that was the name of the factory on Emma Street there.
Nettie: What was the name of the factory?
Andy: White Owl.
Nettie: No, what was the name of the factory?
Andy: Well, it was on Emma Street and that was the name of the factory at that time—what they called it was the White Owl factory, as far as I know.
Nettie: They did? About what year did you go to work?
Andy: About 1927. I worked for two years there.
Nettie: How old were you when you started working?
Andy: Fourteen years. Then the boss, I don't know what his name is, I had—he was an old fellow, he come from the South with the company when they come up, and bought the factory or rented it or something to make the cigars.
Nettie: Now this tobacco came from the South?
Andy: Yup.
Nettie: Do you have any idea where it came from?
Andy: No. It came from there, someplace.
Nettie: Now, when it came here, do you know how it came? Was it transported by truck or rail?
Andy: Railroad. Yes. That boss of mine, he was an old guy when I come there, he must’ve been in his 60s then, but he, I guess must’ve been with the company all his life, pretty near.
Nettie: When this tobacco came in they had to store it someplace—
Andy: Oh yeah, they had the big upstairs, second floor was filled with tobacco, all over the place there.
Nettie: How did they store it, in bins?
Andy: In bins, yeah, yeah. They had a lot of workers up there—unloading the thing and stocking them up there—
Nettie: How was it up there? Windows closed?
Andy: Yeah, you just had to have so much air in there—it couldn't be too dry—had to be a little damp, was dusty as heck, you know—that's how they had to keep it, damp so that the tobacco would not dry up and crumble, them leaves, you know. So, leaves, they had them like in the bins, where they were hanging them up, you probably seen them on television now, when a walks—to a cigar factory where they have tobacco hanging up—and he walks and gets a leaf and spreads it out, he will taste or test it out or he'll put a cigar under it to light the tobacco, and he smells it to see if it is the right smell, so that's what they used to do there.
Nettie: So, before the tobacco was distributed to the different people, they first had to be dipped in the water which was in the vats?
Andy: Yeah, everybody had their job to do. You wouldn't put all of it.
Nettie: No, but do you have any idea of the other jobs?
Andy: No, not too much, because you were not allowed to go all over the factory, at that time—they were pretty strict, you know, they tried to keep all in one room where you were working, you know.
Nettie: Is this all you did, was dip this tobacco in the water?
Andy: Yes—well, we had that job and we had to sort it—them out to the women.
Nettie: How did you sort it out?
Andy: Well, so many bunches to each one, you know, so we made sure they had enough to work with for eight hours.
Nettie: When you sorted it out to the women, what kind of a job did they have?
Andy: Their job was just to roll the cigars, you know. They were rollers—they were rollers—just to roll the cigars.
Nettie: How was the procedure to roll the cigar?
Andy: Well, they had a drum, I don’t know, it was about 10 inches long or wide, you know—and they just put that leaf on that roller—and made sure it was spread out so when it goes in there it is flattened out so that it cut the leaf right in half—the knife was in the middle so they, so that one half a leaf rolled the cigar up and the other half of the leaf would roll the other cigar up, then slice it up, push it on the side. Then it was—
Nettie: Was this work done by hand?
Andy: No, it was done by machine—they roll the cigars by machine—and then they had somebody else come and go around where the women were working by their machine and picking up all them cigars and taking them along to the packing room, so they could pack them up. That's the only thing I know of.
Nettie: How were you paid? How were your wages?
Andy: Oh, we were paid in cash at that time, but the wages were, at that time, were 25 or 30¢ an hour—so we were not making too much, nobody was making that much money in them days, anyway.
Nettie: That's true.
Andy: And it was paid in envelopes, in cash.
Nettie: You were paid by so many pieces or so many bundles?
Andy: No, we were paid by the hour, hourly wages—25¢ or 30¢ an hour, something like that—probably 10-11 dollars a week for 8 hours a day.
Nettie: Where you had worked—were there only men? Did they have ladies working there?
Andy: No, in our room there were just men. In our room there were 4 men—3 besides me in that room where we were working. In this room—in this other room—you had to bring in the tobacco for the ladies to work on. Yes, in the other room there was about 100 women, some men on jobs.
Nettie: Were they foreign women?
Andy: Well, lot of them couldn’t talk by they done their work anyway. And there was some young ones too, so—
Nettie: These ladies, were they mostly from Triple Cities?
Andy: Yes, from Triple Cities: Binghamton, Johnson City and Endicott.
Nettie: Probably most of them were foreign people.
Andy: Yes, most of them, they were, they couldn't talk too good English.
Nettie: How did they talk to the boss?
Andy: Well, some of the women—they interpreted.
Nettie: Now, some of the jobs were called rollers, bunchers—
Andy: In that room where they were working, that's what they called those ladies—rollers. Then they ended up as being inspectors. Yes, they had inspectors, too. Not the women on machines—they had a couple of inspectors—I think the girl that was my brother's secretary—she was secretary and inspector there too, you know. So—
Nettie: Your brother was a foreman, there?
Andy: Yes, he was an assistant. Yes.
Nettie: What was his job?
Andy: Well, he had to see that the women had their work—we put out the tobacco in good shape where they can roll the cigar, because if it were too dry you couldn't roll the cigar right—had to have a certain moisture.
Nettie: You did say your mother worked here. What did she do?
Andy: Oh, she was a roller there.
Nettie: This machine started the cigar, then they sliced the stem of tobacco?
Andy: Yeah, on the roller in the middle there is a knife and that stem, that tobacco was just, goes in between that knife and slices it off—cut right off—the stem, the middle.
Nettie: After it was sliced, you started the procedure of the cigar?
Andy: Yeah.
Nettie: Did you have any strikes in your time?
Andy: No—no strikes at that time.
Nettie: How were they to work for at that time?
Andy: The company were all right to work for—they treated everybody good—as far, as long as I worked there. I know I was treated all right—a job at that time was a job, and you had to have a job. You had work—so that—
Nettie: How were the conditions? Did you have coffee breaks?
Andy: Oh no, at that time, no coffee breaks at that time—no, no you got there in the morning and worked until dinnertime, then went back to work.
Nettie: Did you have to dress any specific way?
Andy: No, no.
Nettie: I understand the ladies had to wear certain aprons.
Andy: Aprons, yeah. I'll tell you in that wet room we had to wear rubber aprons and boots—rubber aprons and boots, because we were always in that water.
Nettie: How about overtime? Was there work for overtime?
Andy: Well I know some of them did, but I never did—just 8 hours—no overtime.
Nettie: How many floors did they have?
Andy: Just three floors—just like it is now, Ansco.
Nettie: You worked on the first floor?
Andy: I worked on the first floor—that's where the tobacco came in, and that's—the second floor—that's where they stored all the tobacco—that's where they hung all the tobacco up there where they got from the boxcars—and what they had on the top floor, I don't know. Maybe another part of the factory, I never saw it.
Nettie: Therefore, most people were working on the first floor.
Andy: No, they had a lot of people on the second floor too, like putting on that tobacco—when we needed tobacco—they would send it down to us.
Nettie: How did they hang this tobacco?
Andy: Well the tobacco comes in bunches, 3-4-5 pieces together, and separate it and hang it on the wire—hand it down so it would stay—it would stay that way.
Nettie: After you dipped it?
Andy: Yes—so—
Nettie: How long did this tobacco have to dry before you can use it?
Andy: Oh, not too long—not too long after we dipped it—maybe because we didn't put too much water on it—just barely touched the water and get it up quickly—
Nettie: Just dipped it into water or spray it?
Andy: Dipped it—yes, on the bottom, and tipped it over in a hurry so just a little bit of water was on it, rolled down because if you had too much water on tobacco it would turn tobacco black.
Nettie: Is that right?
Andy: Too much water on it—then we would leave it there, shake it off good so all the moisture would be off—then we would hand it up on the wire until the women were ready for it. Too much water, it—the thing would turn it black right away. That means—they're no good—well—not good—but they would have to wait 6-8 hours before they dried up good before they can be used—you have to be very careful with the tobacco.
Nettie: Imagine—because it is so thin—
Andy: Yes, because it is so thin and fine—that's—
Nettie: Supposing that the ladies worked on the cigar and they found a defect—what would they do about it?
Andy: Oh, if there was a leaf with a rip on it or something, they would throw it out—yeah—put it on the side—
Nettie: What would they do? Make a cheaper cigar?
Andy: They would probably have it dry out and use it for the inside, because the outside has to be nice and smooth—have a perfect leaf—but the inside, you can put any kind of leaf.
Nettie: Who would know?
Andy: That's right—you would crumble it.
Nettie: When you do see a cigar, you do see a hole through the center. How is that—is that the way it was rolled?
Andy: I don't know—that the way it is rolled—hole is not—
Nettie: There is a man who works with me, and I noticed the hole in his cigars—
Andy: I don't know. I never seen them roll it, but I don't know how that hole gets there—I think it is the inside tobacco—how it rolls there—you fold that tobacco leaf and you get that hole there.
Nettie: Did they use a mold? Machine—
Andy: Well, they didn't use a mold at that time. There was no mold—just a thing you just rolled around the thing, you laid your tobacco on it here—like a ridge—yes, like a ridge—little ridge—your tobacco went under that and kept rolling around.
Nettie: Was it a machine that was rolling it?
Andy: Yes, that's the machine what kept it tight, leaf on top.
Nettie: I was told when there was a reject in a cigar—you had to put a piece on the cigar—paste a piece on a cigar—
Andy: I don’t know, I never done that.
Nettie: Must be you never got to end of the line.
Andy: See, we were only in our room most of the time. What they were doing, patching it up—I don't know how they done it.
Nettie: You just know the first part of it?
Andy: We were just starting it off—getting it ready for the—like I said, we were not allowed to run around the factory, just had to stay in our own department.
Nettie: Did you know of any other factories around? I understand they had several cigar factories around Binghamton.
Andy: I don’t know. I didn't pay too much attention—I don’t know if they had any other factories around or not.
Nettie: Did you have to commute to work? Did you live in Endicott?
Andy: Oh yes. Streetcar—streetcars—going all the way up.
Nettie: How much did they charge for a fare?
Andy: I forgot. It wasn’t much—it wasn't much. The streetcar took you to Emma Street, then catch it on Emma Street to Endicott.
Nettie: When did you start working?
Andy: Seven o’clock.
Nettie: And you worked ’til when?
Andy: Four o'clock—yeah.
Nettie: Did you bring your own lunch?
Andy: Yeah, brought your own lunch. They had no cafeteria then at that time.
Nettie: You cannot recall any other kind of cigar beside White Owl and William Penn that were made?
Andy: I don't know what kind of cigars were made. I guess they made a lot of different kinds, put different names on them.
Nettie: Was one better than the other?
Andy: No.
Nettie: Was your boss a nice man to work for?
Andy: Oh yeah, he was a nice man.
Nettie: Did he look over your shoulder when you were working?
Andy: No, no. Any time you wanted to ask him a question, he always told you what to do and everything. He was older—he was about 60 years old at that time—he was with the company—he always, tobacco—always got a tobacco leaf, put it in his mouth and chewed it. Heck of a nice fellow. I guess he came up here when they moved up here.
Nettie: He was a good advertiser, right? I heard from several people that they were very good to their workers.
Andy: They were, they were.
Nettie: The workers did not seem to complain about bosses as they do now.
Andy: They were—especially our boss—never bawled you out for anything, even if you done wrong—like once in a while you put too much water on it, he would come over and tell us to forget about it. Next time, watch what you are doing—take it—put it over here and let it dry out.
Nettie: That was nice—no pressure, really—
Andy: No, really there was no pressure—was nice working for them. Of course, that time anyway, you had to work someplace. There wasn't much work anyway.
Nettie: You had to work—wasn't there other places you could work beside the cigar factory?
Andy: Well, yes—
Nettie: What was the reason people went to work for the cigar factory? Was it better paying?
Andy: No, you couldn't get a job nowhere else. You had to look wherever you could get a job.
Nettie: Jobs were that scarce.
Andy: Jobs were that scarce, yeah. So after I worked there a couple of years I started to go looking around for another job—well the Depression came after that, so that there was no job for nobody.
Nettie: How was it during the Depression?
Andy: Terrible.
Nettie: Let's talk about it.
Andy: I was walking the streets for days, froze my ears looking for jobs, went to IBM—hundred time a week—thrown out of IBM—
Nettie: Really?
Andy: Oh yeah, locked the door, wouldn’t let me come in no more.
Nettie: What reason? No work? Is that it?
Andy: No work. Then I go to EJ’s—I was back and forth to IBM—that was that time it was the International, small factory up there that was just making cards on McKinley Ave. What the heck did they call it then—
Nettie: Was it Time recorder?
Andy: They made time clocks and cards, punch cards, there.
Nettie: They were manufacturing clocks?
Andy: At that time, I was back and forth—EJ and IBM—trying to find jobs, then I went to Collingwood’s and found a job there.
Nettie: Endicott Johnson?
Andy: That was different—that was a part of George F. [Johnson]'s brother-in-law, running Collingwood's.
Nettie: What were they doing there?
Andy: Shoes, they were making shoes for Endicott Johnson.
Nettie: I thought they were doing something else down there?
Andy: No, they made shoes all the time—then George F. wanted his brother-in-law to sell it to him. The brother-in-law said, “No, I can make a go of it.” You know, George F. used to come down there 2 or 3 times a week.
Nettie: Was he friendly with the workers?
Andy: Oh yes, I put in 19 years there and 28 years more in EJ.
Nettie: Where did you work in EJ?
Andy: All over—West Endicott, Johnson City, and Binghamton.
Nettie: What was your first job at EJ? Collingwood?
Andy: Wetting outsoles, to soften them.
Nettie: How did you do that?
Andy: Put them in the water, let them soak for 15 or 20 minutes, and then take them out and put them on the rack.
Nettie: And then they were distributed to the workers?
Andy: Right.
Nettie: What were your other jobs? Explain the procedures.
Andy: From wetting soles I went in the mauler—hang up uppers—that's the leather—for a while—from there to tacking insoles.
Nettie: How did you tack insoles?
Andy: They put them on a wooden shoe—insole on top of a wooden shoe, and tack it with tacks on—a machine put leather over that, and that is how they made a shoe. After that I went to toe lasting—then I was toe lasting ever since until I retired.
Nettie: Was this at Collingwood?
Andy: No—part in Collingwood, part in EJ—for 28 years lasted toes for plastic shoes for EJ.
Nettie: Was that at Fine Welt?
Andy: No, I was up to Binghamton, up—hecks, Christ, they took that bridge and they put that road in there now, up on Susquehanna Street—had a shoe store—
Nettie: BB Factory?
Andy: Yes. From there I come to Pioneer Factory in Johnson City and then they started to close them up, and I went to Endicott there to Johnson Welt, then from there I come down to Fairplay Factory, now Alpine, now, where I retired.
Nettie: What did you do, the same thing, bed lasting?
Andy: Yes, bed lasting.
Nettie: Explain the procedure of bed lasting.
Andy: Well, they put the shoe—well now, you put the shoe in the machine and the machine does all the work.
Nettie: Is that right? How was it done before?
Andy: Before, you had to put the shoe in upside down, pull your wipers in and get that leather nice and smooth around and put the wire around it—to hold the leather over the shoe until the toe trimmer gets it—trims it off—guy sews the welt on—welt is sewed right around the shoe.
Nettie: Uppers next?
Andy: No, uppers are already on. The welt is sewed on, then it goes up to other guys to put sole on the sole—another job, sew leather onto sole to welt, and that's how your shoe is made.
Nettie: You really had quite a few jobs.
Andy: Oh yeah, I had quite a few shoe jobs.
Nettie: I'm sure you would be a good representative for Endicott Johnson.
Andy: Oh yeah, I went all over—done everything in a shoe factory. I could start a shoe and finish it right off—right on through.
Nettie: Certainly, because you have had the experience of working in EJ and Collingwood for 47 years. Do you have any recollections of the shoe and cigar industries?
Andy: Well, that's about it—what I went through my lifetime working in the cigar factory and shoe industry.
Nettie: Going back to the cigar factory—did they not make cigarettes, pipe tobacco? Maybe in another factory?
Andy: Yeah, I think they had another factory down south.
Nettie: Was it a subsidiary of this factory?
Andy: Yeah, they probably made something else down there.
Nettie: Do you have any idea when the factory on Emma Street was closed?
Andy: Well, it closed about one year or two after I left.
Nettie: You started to work around 1927, and about Depression time it was closed—
Andy: Yeah, I think so, around the Depression time—sometimes—because there were no jobs to be had by nobody at that time. I would still have been working there if they had not closed.
Nettie: What do you remember during the Depression times?
Andy: Well, it was tough—nothing to be had.
Nettie: Maybe you can tell us something of your home life during Depression times.
Andy: Well, there wasn't much of a home life during Depression times. Everyone was looking for jobs and had to get along with what we had.
Nettie: Where did you live? Here or on a farm?
Andy: I lived on McKinley Ave. Endicott. In the factory, them guys that had jobs in EJ—why, half times they had work and half they didn't. They played pinochle or rummy or something just waiting for work to come around. Yeah, some of the guys make 5-6 dollars a week—$10 a week, depends on what kind of job you had. Nothing is going.
Nettie: Gosh, how did they survive if they had big families?
Andy: They got around, they made it somehow. I don’t know how they made it, somehow.
Nettie: How did you manage with a big family?
Andy: We had a big family, but there was some in the family who were working too. We didn't cook steaks, anything like that, but we had at home, like potatoes and buttermilk, like that haluski, she made her own bread, and everything like that. Of course you could’ve gone down to EJ—they had a restaurant—and buy a loaf of bread for 3¢. EJ gave shoes to the family that worked for EJ, for their kids. At one time, they gave fruit away. EJ gave lots of stuff away—anything they thought was good, why, they gave away.
Nettie: Your home here—is this an EJ home?
Andy: Yes.
Nettie: Did you buy this home through EJ?
Andy: Yeah, through EJ.
Nettie: Did you get a cheaper mortgage?
Andy: Yes. For this one here I paid $9,200.
Nettie: How did you finance it?
Andy: They took it out of my pay—$10 a week they were taking out of my pay for the house. We had to put a little down payment that I saved after I came home from service—then you put $1000 down—rest was $1 a week—then they raised it up to $15 a week after a few years, up until it was paid for.
Nettie: You didn't have to pay carrying charges.
Andy: No, that’s it. You didn't have to pay that interest.
Nettie: What else did EJ do? Did they have a credit union? Sort of deduction of wages for saving?
Andy: Not that I know of. All I know is mortgage on the house. EJ used to do a lot for this town. They had those Labor Day things at the park, carnival and things, and everything for people in Endicott, had banquets about every week. He was certainly very good to their workers, were good to the workers—yeah—that is why they couldn't get a union here—because EJ was too good to them. They tried about 100 times but couldn’t get in.
Nettie: I guess they had faith in Mr. George F.
Andy: Yes, up until Frank took over. He's the one who ruined the company—
Nettie: Frank was his son—
Andy: No, he was Charlie's son. So after that, the company was going downhill after Frank took over—that went all to pieces, then I guess he didn't have that compassion. He didn't care for the company in the first place. He was one of these guys—well, he had it made, so he didn't care. He wasn’t paying attention to the workers. Everybody was doing whatever they wanted to—right.
Nettie: The boss wasn't there to take care of the store.
Andy: He didn't know how to run it, anyway. He didn’t know nothing about the business—he didn't even try to learn about the business.
Nettie: I heard he started from the bottom to learn the business.
Andy: He started. He was in the factory, trying—he didn't care for it. He didn’t pay any attention to it—so.
Nettie: It was a shame because it is a nice business.
Andy: That's it. He got in the hole so much, they had to start selling factories to pay all the creditors.
Nettie: Andy, do you have any more recollections?
Andy: I'm trying to think. All I can say, I enjoyed all these years anyway—work was bad or work was not bad—I had good times.
Nettie: Where did your father work? Endicott Johnson?
Andy: No, he died in Pennsylvania during World War I. I was a kid—probably about a couple years old.
Nettie: Did he work in the mines?
Andy: Oh yeah, he had the flu—he died from the flu.
Nettie: Well, tell me about your family. Let's see, you had four children—
Andy: Yeah, two boys and two girls. Five grandchildren—they are all in good health as far as I know.
Nettie: Your son is working in IBM?
Andy: Yes, IBM—manager in IBM. And the other son, he is a boss in Berwick, PA—where they’re building that nuclear plant down there. That's a mammoth building.
Nettie: What is he, an engineer?
Andy: No, he was a plumber. He took up plumbing and air conditioning while in the service, in the Air Force. So he was a plumber for 2 or 3 years—finally he heard of this job down there, so he went down there four years ago and was hired because they needed plumbers down there, and he was doing a heck of a good job. His work was good, every time they inspected it he was A-1 all the time—this past year they made him a boss down there, ’cause he knew what was going on and knew his job good.
Nettie: This nuclear plant—a lot of people are against this nuclear plant being around here, aren't they?
Andy: They are—but will be for the future—that's what he says—that's one of the coming things. They are going to have them and they are going to build them.
Nettie: Is this something we should have, as many are against them in our area?
Andy: Yeah, they are talking about it—but he says that's the thing that is gonna be built. That one there, that he was working on for 3 years or 4 years, and he says they have 6-7 more years’ work on it. That's what he said.
Nettie: How big is a plant like that?
Andy: Oh—Christ—that's a mammoth thing. He brings pictures home once in a while to show it to me. The last one he brought home, the plant was only 1/3 built and he said there were some people down there on the grid and they were only that high (explanation was comparable as to 1 inch of a picture of a person) compared to that plant—just a big mammoth thing.
Nettie: Does it take up a large area?
Andy: Oh yeah, big area.
Nettie: What is this going to be for? Energy?
Andy: Yeah, that's what they are building it for, energy.
Nettie: In other words this is something we will be having—
Andy: Yeah, he says there is no danger of that thing blowing up or anything like that.
Nettie: How come they say there is?
Andy: Well, if they do something wrong or something, or don't hook it up right, something—then that way—but he says if you hook up everything right there's no danger to it. I think he ought to know, he works there. He knows what to do.
Nettie: It sounds interesting.
Andy: Oh, that kind of work is interesting.
Nettie: I think a lot of these boys who had gone into the service, picking up or learned a trade—when they got out of the service they got good jobs.
Andy: That's what my son did. He didn't want to go to college—well my other son, Andy, he didn’t want to go to college—he joined the service, Air Force too. He spent 3-4 years and then he came out. He didn’t take up anything, though he was in there, but he went to school. He came home, then he said, “Geez, I better go to college and learn something.” So he got a job and started going to night school. After that he went to IBM—he's good now—he’s a good manager of IBM. My other son, there, took plumbing and heating, like I said, in the service for 4 years, like that's what he done while he was there.
Nettie: Tey teach them a trade?
Andy: Oh yes, that’s what he did. They taught him a trade in there.
Nettie: What do your daughters do? Are they in school?
Andy: No, they're working for EJ, office work.
Nettie: And your wife works for GE?
Andy: GE.
Nettie: Are you retired?
Andy: I'm retired. Taking life easy—play golf every day in summertime, bowl in wintertime. I'm enjoying life now.
Nettie: Getting your exercises?
Andy: Right—enjoying life now—so that is the way it should be.
Nettie: Andy, it sounds like you had a full life—
Andy: I did, I did. I enjoyed every bit of it. I had some bad times, I had some good times. Mostly good times.
Nettie: Have to forget about the bad ones, right?
Andy: Forget about the bad ones. That's life—just think about the good times.
Nettie: Andy, anything else you want to tell me?
Andy: That's about it.
Nettie: Well, Andy, thanks a lot. I appreciate very much your giving me your time.
",,,,"46:03 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Andrew Goida",,,,1978-01-02,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Goida, Andrew -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cigar industry; Depressions -- 1929; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Ansco Company; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Housing Program",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a66cc6f81cf3ba6948485673c63474c0.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2ef0a15ae195fa67d04a228944ee015d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d0c048d65e2aa74f53f450adc0601ad3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/57c08a0e1574aca3157c8e9e8734f9ff.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ffba30c00d3852f6fe010dba3df6c9ff.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/314b52aa337ae10380a122d6ec35e1f8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6da044066e3a96baa1e957457af4e398.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/eea675e96c11d4b11c2016cd470e5ceb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/988058814669e9da4f6cd58d77e288ef.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6fd7739e4d102d633dc84552fa4b4b99.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dfda0f9a531756e537850fbc42bf8ed0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3dfed81425ee0a773ca6eb6ac2bd3eaf.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bb953d51b1a98b6b7602c2918c20f946.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7b9647af8118b0f225fe8d72ecd79cf5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4fb4db8171ff1a8c87db2decd5728fdd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/69434d432c732aa6b89d4ff8b51340b2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f64cdd0a9f7df6b1b3116dd30febee18.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b4cfde4a9cd122d3f0e082637fea3a28.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3543be5019a06337a45aa8f732529b23.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c1e25c81d5b861a8c02b4ac0d6a9b88.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c5da54925597fb1d43bf3811925fd952.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e93dd273058f95c658389e6388c4c90b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fbeedd64a6297ff39ff9c34b3f6f8678.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/85ace654c97fac8e311457e554f07537.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5b77f9fce6b77d85d31d316e2412652e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f48d3b0aff59f6a370c386efd2f87146.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6032bd6ba418441d6c32310f76868400.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/93935d0a5a5b4e433daac431f4e6adcb.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 493,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/493,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"79:58 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Leonard Brotzman",,"Brotzman, Leonard ; Brotzman, Grace ; Wood, Wanda",,"audio/mp3 ","Brotzman, Leonard -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Farmers -- Interviews; Cornell University; Broome County Grange (N.Y.); Bee Keeping; Canals; Extension Service; Farm Bureau; Farm Machinery; Dairy Farms; Apple Farms; Tobacco Farms","Leonard Brotzman talks about sustenance farming through the years of his life, as well as, his ideas on farming practices and the sale and transportation of produce. He also discusses the canals and the Broome County Grange, his education, scholarships and experiences at Cornell University.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-01-05,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 7",,"Wood, Wanda","Brotzman, Leonard",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Leonard Brotzman
Interviewed by: Wanda Wood
Date of interview: 5 January 1978
Wanda: This is Wanda Wood, interviewing Leonard Brotzman of Brotzman Hill Road in the Town of Chenango. The date is the fifth of January, 1978. Mr. Brotzman, why don’t we start out with the beginning and—ah—can you tell me something about what life was like on the farm when you were a little boy?
Leonard: Well, when I came here it was all farms. You'd be amazed if you could see today the number of the farms there was o'er these hills—
Grace Brotzman [Leonard’s wife]: On Front Street, too.
Leonard: —and—
Grace: It was all farms on Front Street.
Leonard: Oh, well, she don't want two or three of us talkin’ at once. See, she has to transcribe this, and if you talk it balls it up.
Grace: Well, I'll keep my jaw straight. (Laughter).
Wanda: No, no—
Leonard: Well, if you want to say something—heh—hold up your finger, she says. (Laughter.) And in those days it was what we’d call “sustaining farming” now. The farmer's figures could be as near—live off from the farm as they could. So, because money was very scarce—ah—some farmers, especially the small dairies, didn't have enough for them to make a livin’ and so they kept chickens, and every farm that I can remember had an orchard, at least an orchard of apples, and the big crop, outside of hay and grain to support their livestock, was potatoes. Nearly everyone with any size farm raised from three to ten acres of potatoes. And they drew them in to Binghamton with horses—drew them mostly in the fall, because after it got cold, you couldn't take them in or they'd freeze, and the stores, they were mostly independent groceries. The chain stores hadn't come in as we know them today. The A&P was here, but they bought off the local farmers. It was before the days of trucks. And, also buckwheat was quite a crop. And o’er the hills they—I presume there was more farms was run by renters than they was by owners. And they'd raise some potatoes, some buckwheat, and a hog and some beans, and they'd have maybe a team and a cow or two. And they took—they took off. They didn't put anything back. Then the farm got so poor it wouldn’t support them, why, they’d move on and another one would try. That's why we've got so many abandoned farms. And the families were large, and the children would have to look for work elsewhere—and soon that—when we came here in 1906, Binghamton, the cigar factories was the big industry. And then the Endicott Johnson came, and they became gradually built up, and then when World War I came, why, they really expanded. Seems to me about 20,000 workers. And everyone rushed in there to work.
Wanda: Do you remember much about the cigar industry?
Leonard: No I don’t. I know before my time they used to raise tobacco around here. Down Front Street, on what's now the Quinn place and Ruth Wolfe's—they were tobacco farms. They were a high narrow barn and they had boards on them, hinged so they could open it for ventilation, and o'er on what's 369 then—I don't know who owns the place now—the last I knew, it was Dr. Allerton’s. Hull’s owned it years ago, and they said they grew a lot of tobacco.
Wanda: Where the big stone barn is?
Leonard: Yeah.
Wanda: And the canal was right there,too, wasn't it? Right near by—
Leonard: Yeah. And when I was a boy, quite a lot of old canallers left. We used to like to get them telling canal stories. In fact, Grace is a descendant of the canallers. Her grandparents were on the canal.
Wanda: Well, maybe we can get her to talk about that?
Leonard: She didn't hear you—
Grace: I don’t know much about it.
Wanda: Don’t remember your grandparents?
Grace: All I know is it was the last end of the canallin’ when my grandfather was steerage and my grandmother was cook.
Wanda: What were their names?
Grace: What? Ah, Palmer.
Wanda: Oh—yeah. Connected with the—the family there—the Thomas family. Weren't they relatives of the Thomas family down on Chenango Bridge Road?
Grace: I don't know.
Wanda: Well, that's—
Grace: They might have been. Or, ah—unless she means the Palmers that used to live here, maybe.
Wanda: No—ah—it's a—well, that's another story. But she was a cook on the canal?
Grace: Yeah, my grandmother was.
Wanda: And your grandfather?
Grace: She was an Ackerman before she was married.
Wanda: Do you remember any stories they told you about it?
Grace: No. All I know is every time the Port Crane men and the Chenango Forks men met, they had a fight.
Leonard: (Laughter.) Well, what—one question was, “What was the amusement?” That was amusement to the canallers. This isn’t being recorded, is it?
Wanda: Oh yes.
Leonard: Well, this Palmer that you speak of married John Thomas’s sister, was raised right here. He lived here when we come on the hill. That was Charley, and I understand they were distant relatives of Grace's folks.
Grace: Well, my grandfather and their grandfather was cousins, I guess. Something like that.
Wanda: Well, I wish some of those canallers were still around.
Leonard: There was one, Dick Shaw. When they put the hard road in between the corners—
Grace: They was hard people. I mean they were real fighters, some of them.
Leonard: I guess all of 'em in the old days were.
Grace: Tough, they’s tough.
Leonard: Dick was an old canaller, and Stento put this piece of hard road in on Front Street, and Dick drove team for someone and he boarded with a Mrs. Webb—she kept three or four cows, and then he stayed there and done her chores until he died. And he used to tell us great stories about the canal.
Wanda: I'm sorry he's gone, aren't you? Well, where were we then?
Leonard: We'd got up to where people went to town to work. And that was one thing—that I think changed the face of farming. Well, when I was a boy, it was my father and brother and I at home, and except in haying and such things, we wasn't all needed. And when we was out of school and I worked at whatever I could find, I worked for other farmers. I worked in the ice-houses up to the 'Forks on the railroad. I worked on the road and I worked in the sawmills. And all of us boys done that. We worked at whatever we could get to do. And as the hill farms got poorer, why, it was a poorer living, and then people—they'd see that others in other occupations was making more money—had an easier time—so they drifted away to the cities. And then they has modern machinery come in. One man could do more, why, they begin to buy up the smaller farms. Maybe one man would get four or five of them and work them with the machinery, where it’d give employment to a lot of people before. And another thing that changed farming, I presume, there was as much land used to grow horse feed as there was to feed the people. Well, when the horses was gone, why, there was no market for oats and hay, and that was another thing that caused farming to change. And it gradually went into this trend for bigger farms on the better soils.
Wanda: But you stuck right here, didn't you?
Leonard: What?
Wanda: You stuck right here?
Leonard: Yeah. (Laughs.) In those days you took what come along. I dropped out of high school in my fourth year. I had eye trouble. I was going back. Wages got up to three dollars a day—what would I need of an education when I could make all that money like that? (Chuckles.)
Wanda: Three dollars a day, oh my.
Leonard: Well, I got a Grange scholarship to Cornell one winter for a short course, and when I came back, this farm, fellow that owned it died. His father was over on the “hill”—the State grabbed it and sold it at auction. And my father bid it off and took part of it and I bought the rest.
Wanda: How many acres?
Leonard: Well, at that time I think—think I had a hundred and nineteen. I’ve bought land since then—got more land, and I’ve sold it and I'm still stuck here. But I won’t be if I ever find a customer with any money. There’s no use having a farm you can’t work yourself, and the house is too big for us. We’d like to sell out here and get a small house and lot, kind of near civilization.
Wanda: Well, how—how have your crops changed over the years? Have there been a lot of changes there, except for the things you've said? You—you've always been a dairy farmer?
Leonard: Well, when I was at home, my people were market gardeners. They came from Pennsylvania with the idea of raising a truck for the Binghamton market. And they had to cut the cloth according to what they could. They bought here on the hills. Land was cheaper. And the trouble up here was, we was about a month later than they was down on the river. By the time our produce got on the market, why, the other price for early stuff was gone. And I remember when from Chenango Bridge—
[Interruption while a neighbor comes to call.]
Wanda: Can you remember where we left off?
Leonard: No.
Wanda: Doesn't matter. Well, I wonder if you could tell us something about the Grange? I know you’ve been connected with it for many years, haven't you?
Leonard: Well, to get back to the beginning, the Grange—after the Civil War the farmers were in pretty bad shape, and the Commissioner of Agriculture sent a man by the name of Albert Kelly to the South to look the situation o'er. Well, he was a Mason. He got the idea that the farmers ought to have an organization like the Masons, so he went ahead and organized one. And the first Grange, Number One in the United States, was organized at Fredonia in 1868. I think it's still going, for everything I know of. And o’er the years there was a good many Granges been organized and disbanded, and then there will be others organized. I presume in Broome County, let’s see, I think the first Grange here was at Kirkwood in 1874. And I think Binghamton was organized a few years after that, and then that disbanded and reorganized in 1906. Well, the first I knew about the Granges, the big drawing card was that they got feed and groceries at a discount, and some places there were Grange stores. Well, then after GLF was organized, they kinda dropped the feed business and went out of the merchandise business. It was more a social organ.
Wanda: Was it sort of a cooperative venture, you mean, when they had the stores?
Leonard: As I understand it.
Wanda: Well, there was quite a bit of social life combined with that, wasn't there?
Leonard: Yes. It was really—I think—a poor man's organization. It always seemed to flourish best in—ah—Depression times. But it was a farmer's organization, and I think the big trouble with the farm—the Grange in Broome County—is there isn't many farmers left. And I don't know. Us old ones are, ah, passing on, and there's so many other things that the young people don't seem to be interested. One thing, the centralized schools have so much on and then people would rather stay at home and watch television than to go out. I understand that in the states where they're farther away from the big cities the Grange is doing better ‘n it is in the more populous areas. Although Binghamton Grange, I think, is doing good. Sanitaria Springs. A boy from Binghamton Grange—they have a contest, and and one of them was in music. I think he plays the piano, and he must’ve won—been the winner in Broome County and at the State contest, and he went to National Grange down in the Carolinas and won. I think his name is Bob Hall from Port Crane.
Wanda: Was this a scholarship thing, or—?
Leonard: No. Not that.
Wanda: Oh, just a contest.
Leonard: Ayuh. I don't know, there’s a lot of prizes for the winners, what he got. And Missie—what'd Missie Acroni win that time? Do you remember, Grace? That was national, wasn’t it?
Grace: Well, yes, sure it—
Leonard: Her Afri—how d’you pronounce it? Something—African or something they knit?
Grace: Ayuh.
Leonard: And I think she got a thousand dollars and her Grange, she’s a member of Sherwood Valley, got five hundred and—
Wanda: Do you mean “Afghan”?
Leonard: Yeah.
Wanda: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's pretty good.
Leonard: Well, I’ve heard a lot say that the Grange was the greatest force for good next to the Church. Probably everybody wouldn't agree… Well, here’s something about farm machinery. Well, only the most prosperous farmers in those days—the bigger farmers might have a reaper and binder, and then there was what they called the drop reaper. It cut the grain and deposited it in a bundle on the ground, but couldn't tie it. But the small farmers used the old-fashioned cradle, and then we raked it up with a hand rake and tied it up in a bundle. And believe me, in those days there wasn't a spear of grain or hay wasted. They waste more today on the big farms than we used to have. And then the tractors begin to come in. About the first ones was the old Fordson. An’ I never see a thing I hated like them. You could crank your head off and still they wouldn’t start unless they felt like it. But they were used in those days mainly as a belt power. The tractors didn't really get out in the fields ’til they got them with rubber tires. An’ the way we sprayed, we were about the first ones around to spray an orchard. We had a force pump in a barrel with a rubber hose and a nozzle. One of us pumped and the other one sprayed.
Wanda: Was that horse-powered?
Leonard: It was man-powered. We drawed it with horses. And we’d spray the apples once or twice. Get nice apples. But now they spray continually, and—
Wanda: That was on your father's farm, right?
Leonard: Ayup. And there was some equipment here or orchard here when I got the farm. I sprayed that and I bought an orchard on the adjoining farm, but they're all pretty well gone. And we probably set a couple hundred new trees, and the deer killed every one of them. We raise them and then the State sells them to hunters. There was a neighbor, Mose Hatch, was raised in a log cabin. When I was a boy, he'd tell me how his father killed the last deer fifty years before that. Then in 1920 there was a pair up here—people come for miles to see them. Well, I wish that one that Old Man Hatch killed, it had been the last one. I think any farmer will—about, will agree with me on that.
Wanda: They say there are more now than there ever were in this country.
Leonard: Ayuh, and I think it's because there's so much abandoned land grew up to second growth. Up in the Adirondacks where they used to go to hunt, why, it’s all big timber, nothing for them to eat. And we stored the apples in the cellar, mostly in barrels and crates. You could keep bees. I never did. My brother was a great hand for bees. He didn't care any more about bees stinging him than a fly lighting on him. A mosquito buzzing'd drive him crazy.
Wanda: Well, he probably had to have them for the apples, didn't he?
Leonard: Well, yes—and we kept 'em. When he was a boy he'd worked where they kept hundreds of colonies. I always thought I'd like to keep bees, but they didn't like me. They say they'll sting anybody that's afraid of them, and they sure knew I was afraid of 'em. But—and that's another thing that's changed—in those days, we got white clover and buckwheat honey. Well, 'bout all you get now is a mixture, mostly of weeds. Back when there was all these cattle o'er these hills—ah—pastures were chewed right down an’ come in to white clover. And everyone raised buckwheat. But we'd plow 'er and put in to potatoes—they winter. I remember when I paid $4.50 school tax on this farm. This year it was o'er six hundred. But the teacher got—I remember six or seven dollars a week, an’ was glad to get a school at that.
Wanda: Where'd you go to school?
Leonard: Well, there was a district school right at the foot of the hill. It’s a house now.
Wanda: Oh, yes—I remember that—yes.
Leonard: And then Chenango Forks was what they called the union school—it was three-year high school—and Grace and I both went there, and then she went to Greene for the last year and graduated. And I started at Whitney Point. But as they say, I “quituated” instead of graduating.
Wanda: How'd you go to school? Did you have to board up there?
Leonard: Well, I boarded in the winter and the rest of the time I walked to Chenango Forks—went up on the nine o'clock train. And then they came back on the—what they called the “freight and accommodation”—old freight train, a passenger car on it. And that came alone, down anytime it felt like it, sometimes eight or nine o'clock at night. And this was a mud road then, down Front Street and up the hill, and we didn't even have a flashlight in them days. And boy, I was late at home until I sure was a man. And then I got a Grange scholarship and went to Cornell one winter—only vacation I ever had. And that was the last year they gave scholarships. Then they started what they called the revolving scholarship fund. They established the fund and would lend it to the students. And I think they're still doing it. Well—the last complaint I heard was they'd only lend so many hundred to each student a year. And the way expenses went up, they had to look for more money.
Wanda: What did you study that—when you went to Cornell? What were your subjects then?
Leonard: Well, we all, as I remember, we had to take a course in chemistry and soils, and one or two other basic things. And then I went in more for fruit growing and poultry raising, and took a course in forestry which was, I think, was the most interesting of any I took. And then I came home and bought this farm and this was more adapted to—in cattle than fruit growing.
Wanda: So you—did you go into the poultry business too, or—?
Leonard: Well, we used to keep a few hundred. But now it's all specialization. It's all poultry or all dairy, or something of the kind, and mainly because it's, probably one of the biggest things was, the farmers can't afford to hire help to compete with industry. 'Cause of minimum wage laws. So they, they've mechanized. One man produces as much as a lot did in the old days, doing it the way we used to. And about milk—there were all these small dairies. They had a half a dozen or more put together and buy a wagon and put a rack on it. Milk went to Binghamton. One man'd take it one day and one the next, and then they'd go it around again. We done that for years.
Wanda: You mean it was peddled in Binghamton that way?
Leonard: No, we took it to the milk companies.
Wanda: Oh—Crowley's—
Leonard: We'd draw it from eight to ten dairies on one load. They were all small dairies. And then when they got trucks, why, they went to hiring a truckman to take it in. Today—the can—I don't know of a place that buys canned milk anymore. It's all bulk tanks. And that put a good many small farmers outta business, because on the backroads the bulk truck won't go in unless they produce enough milk to pay 'em for their trouble. There we used to—well, take our canned milk to the main road for them to pick it up. And I don't know whether there's anyone in Binghamton taking milk in for the Crowley’s—whether their bulk tanks empty in Binghamton or not. There's a bulk tank, goes up through here every morning—or I see it every day or two. I don't know as it's every day. Picks up Haskell's, and then it goes up to Bob Walker's, and farther up's George Perry's. I think his goes to the Lea [Dairy Lea] and Eddy Smith go to Crowley's. Now there's four dairies where there used to be twenty-five or thirty. Probably as many cows in the four as there was in all of 'em.
Wanda: Well, do you think it's better or worse?
Leonard: Well—(Laughs)—I kinda think I like the old way best, but I know that it wouldn't be very practical, the way conditions are today.
Wanda: Especially for the wages, right?
Leonard: But I will say that those small farmers, the ones that owned their farms, the government didn't have a mortgage on them for more'n they was worth. Some of my friends hear that remark, they'll grate their teeth. (Laughter.) We didn't have much in those days, but what we had was ours. One question in here about apple varieties—do we want to go into—?
Wanda: Oh yes, I'd love to pick up that—do you remember?
Leonard: On the place where I was born, they were—the fences were stone walls. There was apple trees all around it—I think the biggest apple trees I ever seen, and was as nice apples. We never heard of spraying. We—ah—gathered what we wanted, and the rest fell off and laid there. And some of the bigger orchards a little later, the buyers come in and buy them and hire a gang to pack 'em in barrels and send them somewhere, to cities. And then we got all kinds of insects and diseases, and they had to spray.
Wanda: Do you remember some of the names of those old varieties that you can't find anymore?
Leonard: Well, back in the old days, those old varieties were seedlings—came up themselves and happened to be a good apple, then somebody discovered them and went to propagating them. Today, most of the new varieties are a manmade variety. They cross two or three varieties with—ah—to get the kind of apple they want. O'er to Geneva, they have an orchard with a thousand varieties they use for show and in this business, creating new apples. The old-fashioned apples—I can remember the Yellow Transparent come first and the Red Astrakan, then there was Sweet and Sour Harvest—they're not too well known around here—and Tompkins County King. They were an awful good apple. I don't know where they let 'em slip, but nobody has 'em. One time the Baldwin, there was more of them raised than anything else. And the Northern Spy for years was a main apple. Then there was the Rhode Island and the Northwestern Greenings—they were more cooking apples—and the Roxbury Russet, that used to keep 'til the next summer. And I don't know of where there's hardly a tree or any of them anymore, except the Northern Spy, and they're used more for processing. And we had the Pound Sweet and the Talman Sweet and the Rambo and the Hubbardson Nonesuch. Lord Nelson, the Spitzenburg, Jonathan, Grime's Golden. I think quite a lot of those varieties came from England and Europe.
Wanda: The names sound that way.
Leonard: And they, ah—the apple, I understand, is a native of the Near East. They were brought to this country. But today—why, the statistics show Red Delicious—there's more of them raised. But in the stores everybody wants McIntosh. They know the name—and I—
Wanda: That's about the only two names you hear anymore.
Leonard: And I've seen a lot of things sold for McIntosh that didn't even faintly resemble 'em. I was reading the other day, a list of apples that they've developed o'er to Geneva. Some of them I don't know and never seen. But one of the first ones they developed was the Cortland. That's a cross between the—ah—I think the McIntosh an’ the Ben Davis. Cortland's a wonderful apple. An’ the Ben Davis—(Laughter)—oh boy. I'd as soon eat a chip any day. (Chuckles.) But at one time when I was a boy they set out a lot of them. That was the days before refrigeration, and they would keep to send across the ocean.
Wanda: (Laughs.) I can imagine so.
Leonard: They was too poor to rot!
Wanda: Did you ever cook them, Mrs.—ah—Brotzman?
Grace: What—the Ben Davis? Yeah, I cooked 'em.
Wanda: How did you do it?
Grace: I think we—I think we've even baked them, didn't we, Leonard?
Leonard: Seems though.
Wanda: That's the only way I've ever heard that you could get 'em soft, was to bake them.
Leonard: We used to use them when we was short of other apples.
Grace: My mother—sometimes the frost would get the other apples and we had just the Ben Davis. We used 'em. There isn't a Ben Davis tree left, is there?
Leonard: Why, up on that Hatch orchard there's one that had a few left—last year. And we had a white apple. And the Stood orchard was set for Spitzenburg, but they turned out to be this white apple with the red cheek—I think they called 'em the Belmont—and we sold hundreds of bushels of those. Today, you couldn't get people to look at 'em. But fruit is somethin’ that's particular about the ground. This place is quite clay-ey, and apples don't do good in that. And also the west wind hits in here. I never had too much luck with cane berries. I think because the wind's so cold. Across the road where it's sheltered and in shale soil, fruit done wonders and we raised acres of berries. We used to pick berries—be five or six of us every day, and my brother drawed them to Binghamton with the horses.
Wanda: How did he sell them? House to house?
Leonard: No. mostly to stores. We never did do too much retail business—took too much time. But we did used to have customers in the fall of the year. They'd put in potatoes an’ apples an’ onions an’ everything like that. They'd last all winter. Where if you'd unload a whole load, why, it paid. But our—most of our customers would be what was called independent grocers. We'd supplied them wholesale an’ then they'd retail 'em. And then—I think the first chain store in Binghamton, the American store came in Washington Street. Potatoes, I know, was $1.75 an’ they brought 'em in on trucks from somewhere. They'd evidently bought 'em cheaper—dollar and a quarter. And that pretty well ended growing the many potatoes around here. Why, in the old days they used to car 'em. Load aft—carload after carload. Chenango Bridge. Whitney Point. You remember Mart Foote?
Wanda: Oh—I do.
Leonard: Why, Mart was a buyer for some company—potatoes and apples.
Wanda: Is that right?
Leonard: He used to go out in the lake country and buy a whole orchard of apples an’ hire men to pick 'em and car them.
Wanda: Well—
Leonard: I guess that about runs out of questions here.
Wanda: Well, we've got a little time left.
Leonard: Well—asking about the Grange—and the Farm Bureau—that was organized here in 1911. The first one in the United States—the Chamber of Commerce and the Delaware-Lackawanna, and I forgot what else sponsored it.
Wanda: The Farm Bureau, you mean?
Leonard: Well, what was Farm Bureau then's the Extension Service now. It was the Farm Bureau for a good many years. John Baron was the first agent. He had Broome County, part of Susquehanna, and he had a horse and buggy. And then it was Ed Minns—he’d been a professor at Cornell, and they did get him a car. He'd bought a place down to Nimmonsburg—I think Carl St. John owned it later. And Baron—he went on. He was a professor at Cornell later, and then there was—Eastman—I think an Eastman. I've known every one of the Farm Bureau men. I was a committeeman for about fifty years. We used to go out and solicit people to join. I think the dues at first were a dollar, and then they worked up—seems to me to five—and then they dropped back to three. And one thing we discovered—the people that could’ve benefited from it most was the ones it was the hardest to get to join. And I think that the Farm Bureau was—well, they brought what—the new things to the farmers. And the better farmers today are the ones that went along with them. And the others are—huh—like the buffalo and the passenger pigeon.
Wanda: (Laughs). That's a good comparison.
Leonard: And then they got the bright idea of calling that the Extension Service and organizing the Farm Bureau, because it was being supported by public money and there'd be bills come up that they wanted to work for, and they couldn't do that as long as they was supported by public money. So—they called that part of it “Extension Service” and then they organized the Farm Bureau, which could not receive any public money. Although they work for different things. I've always been with the Extension. I belonged to the Farm Bureau for a few years, but when I sold the dairy I dropped out.
Wanda: So you have no dairy now?
Leonard: Well, I've got one cow and four or five heavy young cattle. The neighbor's got beef cattle here and does the haying.
Wanda: Well—that's good.
Leonard: I was going to send the old cow to the auction on a Monday, but she freshened on Friday. She wasn't in very good shape to send to the auction, so I've still got her. I tied the calf 'side of her and told him to go to it, but he's lazy—he makes me help.
Wanda: Well, you're lucky to have a—one cow, even.
Leonard: Well—one cow ties you down as tight as that whole barnful.
Wanda: Does it?
Leonard: And that's really why I was getting rid of her, too, but—if I can't be here to milk her—Grace’s got past it, and where do you get someone to milk her?
Wanda: Well—if you didn't gad so much, you wouldn't have to worry about those problems.
Leonard: It ain’t the gadding that worries me, it's trips to the hospital.
Wanda: Well, I want to thank you. Have you got anything else you want to put on here?
Leonard: No. I've probably put on too much now.
Wanda: How about it, Mrs. Brotzman?
Grace: I haven't got anything.
Wanda: Well, I guess we're kinda talked out, aren’t we? But I do thank you, and I thank you for your hospitality. It's been a pleasure.
Leonard: Well, it's been a pleasure to talk with you.
",,,,"79:58 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Leonard Brotzman",,,,1978-01-05,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Brotzman, Leonard -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Farmers -- Interviews; Cornell University; Broome County Grange (N.Y.); Bee Keeping; Canals; Extension Service; Farm Bureau; Farm Machinery; Dairy Farms; Apple Farms; Tobacco Farms",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2ffb47c470a5bdc38ef8928dce6d46d3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3e180f33abf723f3cb835ae5613bbf52.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/44d8e5752ba5f42fb9cccaa9d7817f63.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/127fa66eb6200932e03fbdf9d0f69dbd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2460e8025e2eec03a7b9a418a547fb7e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1c7e9c7f6691b4969427d65fe356fc2c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/36b2858c6d89781da36b6a195cbb0aa6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8ec48276fa028aeba7e3717164a82aeb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/80556b2746c0771392ebbd43b9d23d57.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e4360a537b97097f04bd00742b0c38d4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/28868b7ce6554ee0a7478b1d9b8c6632.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0e9c25d98b617d44534b3e7c9f5d417b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/336e8d219107ee45e8acd028e9e4a843.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/67b3d07be42f04f209aa348f194b14e1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/286d5a4b69c12a23d5e94ca6c9ccb82d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/81335c7d2a6badfb36cf09bdaee27381.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 506,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/506,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"33:55 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Mrs. Beccye Fawcett ",,"Fawcett, Beccye ; O'Neil, Dan",,audio/mp3,"Fawcett, Beccye -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; New Orleans (La.); New Orleans University; Key West (Fla.); Binghamton (N.Y.); African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Underground Railroad; Race discrimination; Binghamton Public Library; Trinity M.E. Zion Church","Mrs. Fawcett details her life from her upbringing in New Orleans, LA, through her education at the public high school, then getting her degree in education from New Orleans University, to her relocations with her husband, who was a Reverend that worked in New Orleans, then Key West, Fla. and finally in Binghamton, NY, where he passed away. She describes her work for the Trinity M.E.Church and her application to work at the Binghamton Public Library, as well as being the first Black woman to be appointed in one of the city departments. She discusses the discrimination she faced in the workplace and how she stood her ground for equal treatment, as well as the changes in treatment of Black people in the community during her years in Binghamton. She discusses her interest and knowledge of the Underground Railroad.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-01-05,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 20",,"O'Neil, Dan","Fawcett, Beccye",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Beccye Fawcett
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 5 January 1978
Dan: OK, now, Mrs. Fawcett, why don't you relate your life experiences from the time that you were born up until the present date?
Mrs. Fawcett: Ah, I was born in New Orleans, Louisiana, the daughter of the late Mr. and Mrs. Herbert Boyd Sr. I received my education in the public, early public education in the public schools of New Orleans. I graduated with a major in Education from New Orleans University. I married the late Reverend A. Luther Lightford, and he was assigned to the ministry of a church in Key West, Florida. We went there, he served as the spiritual leader of the church—I taught school for two and a half years. He was then transferred to the parish here in Binghamton, NY. His ministry here was rather short-lived in that he died after a year and a half of service. I was then ordained a local preacher to carry on the work which he had begun. I served the church from October 1933 to June 1934. In June of 1935, I took the Civil Service Examination for a worker in the Binghamton Public Library. I was the first Black person to take the examination and to be appointed by the City as a worker in one of the City departments. It wasn't easy even though, ah, I was here in Binghamton in the North. I ran into quite a bit of prejudice, quite a bit of discrimination, sometimes very disheartening. Ah, I remember so vividly, ah, the first check that I received after two weeks of work. I knew it wasn’t in keeping with the salary set by the Civil Service Commission, and when I received it I went into the secretary’s office and said to her rather meekly, because back in ’35, you had to speak meekly, believe it or not, even though you were in the North, and ah, I said, ""I think something is wrong with my check,"" and she said, ""Well I have nothing to do with it, you will have to speak with the librarian.”
So, believe it or not, I stood around trying to get to the librarian. When she came in—she was out to lunch, probably, but before I could get to her, the secretary had already gotten in to her, and she said to the secretary, “Well tell her she can take it or leave it—she doesn't have to stay."" It was quite a blow to me, it was quite a shock. I went down to the Ladies’ Room—I shed bitter tears over such cruelty, over such a reaction, and I said, “Lord, should I stay, should I leave?"" He answered me and said, ""Stay, because if you leave, the feeling that exists will be there will never be another Black person employed in the Binghamton Public Library.” So, with all the courage that I had, I went to her, the secretary, and I said, ""I am staying now,"" and I did, and in July of 1974, I finished 36 years of working as a servant of the public and community. I, ah, would like to make a quote because I think it is so apropos of the struggle that I had, and this quote is from a letter that I received from Mr. M. Charles Miller on July 2, 1974 when I was, ah, retiring, and he said, and I quote, ""You overcame handicaps and finished your career with a significant position on the staff. In so doing, you not only served the library but you served the Black community as proof its members could and would take their places as leaders and doers in the fabric of our Social, Educational and Economic society,"" unquote.
I have seen many, many changes in our community. I recall when the first Black girl tried to get into the school system. She went into the Superintendent’s office—spoke to his receptionist, who said to her, “The Superintendent is in a conference and you’d have to wait,"" and so she did. She waited all morning—she went out to lunch—she came back—she waited all afternoon—she left when the office closed. She went back the second day, same thing happened. She went back the third day and they decided this girl is determined, and so the Superintendent saw her. She was then employed and became the first Black woman to become a member of the Board of Education. She is still a member. That was back around in the early forties and she has served the school system well. But times have changed—today, I don't know the exact number of black teachers but it is quite a considerable number of teachers in the system. In 1954, when the New York State Commission came into being, of which I am a charter member, the pattern of thinking, ah, the community thinking was a bit changed, because up until that time, there was only one Black person employed at IBM, one at E.J. Shoe Factory, and this one was there because his great grandfather had worked for the Johnson family as a butler, so they kept him on as a token of appreciation of what his grandfather had done for the family. But all of that has changed now, ah, all of the industries and out of Broome County are employing large numbers of Black people. If you are capable, if you have the qualifications, if you have the training, I am very happy to say that today, 1978, Black people can find the job, the position wherever there is an opening that they meet the qualifications, and ah, I think of the housing situation—I remember very well that before the Urban League and the NAACP came into being into our community, I was one of the lone voices crying in the wilderness for people to open their hearts and, as Christians, to make way for Black people to live and to have decent places to live. Today, if a Black person has the money, he can buy and live anyplace in Broome County. And so, ah, through the 47 years I have seen so many changes, not only economic, educational, social, that you can barely think in terms that 40 years ago a Black person was as much discriminated against here in Binghamton as he was in the deep South. As a child growing up I frankly didn't, ah, encounter any discrimination. We lived in a mixed neighborhood. We were probably considered a middle-class family—my mother never worked outside of the home—she stayed in near her family. My father was the breadwinner of the family—he was an accomplished blacksmith and at that time horses and wagons and all were in style. So as a child, I grew up in a very well rounded Christian family. And so through my life, I have, after coming to Binghamton, experienced more discrimination and more segregation than I did as a child in New Orleans.
Dan: Is that right? Now you speak of more segregation—in what respect? Down south were you not restricted to where you could ride on the bus, and etc.?
Mrs. Fawcett: Ah yes.
Dan: You know, in the public restrooms.
Mrs. Fawcett: Ah yes.
Dan: Which you didn’t find up here.
Mrs. Fawcett: Well no, we didn't find it here to a degree—it was more subtle. For instance, ah, you could get on the bus here in Binghamton and get your seat and you could ride all over the city, and no one, not a white person, would come and take the seat next to you, so you rode there alone, and, ah, Black people have a certain sense that they know when someone is deliberately discriminating against them. And, ah, so in the South there were signs saying “White People,” “Negroes Only,” “White People Only.” You saw those signs so you knew this is where you go, but here there were no signs, but you knew that they didn't want you.
Dan: The inference was there.
Mrs. Fawcett: That’s right, that’s right, and ah, even in restaurants, you probably could go in but if you didn't check, ah, make a very close check on the bill when it was handed to you, ah, you .would find that it had been upped—increased so that, ah, you realized, “I'm not going there, because on their bill of fare it was so much, but when I get my check, it’s a different price.” Those subtle ways of saying.
Dan: At the time that you first got your paycheck, you said there was discrimination as far as the amount?
Mrs. Fawcett: That’s right.
Dan: Now wasn’t there a Labor Board or anybody that you could go to to complain rather than to your immediate supervisor?
Mrs. Fawcett: Ah no, there was no Labor Board, and ah, I might clarify that, ah, in those years, the City fathers would make out a large check covering all of the expenses for the year of the Libraries—the book sales, the equipment and the supplies, the salaries, and then the librarian and the Board could sit down and say who’s going to get what and how much, and that is what happened in my case. And it wasn't ’til a year later, when I felt that I was on a little more solid ground, that I went in and spoke to the librarian and I told her that I had worked a whole year without receiving the salary that the Civil Service job called for, and she said ""I don't think that was right,"" and I said, “Well, you have your canceled checks, though,” and I said, “I am going to go to the Civil Service Commission and find out why I am not receiving what I am supposed to get,” and she became very much upset and she said, ''Oh please don't do that, don't do that, ah, we will see that this is corrected.” Well then the following year, ’36 or ’37, I was then, my salary was then put on the basis for which the job called for according to the Civil Service.
Dan: Were you ever paid retroactive to this?
Mrs. Fawcett: I never was.
Dan: Never paid retroactively?
Mrs. Fawcett: There was a time when I thought, well, maybe I should, and then I said, No, ah, it would just merely create a feeling and a lot of unfavorable publicity, ah, for the library, for the librarian and probably for me.
Dan: Now you, ah, when you retired, what position did you hold as far as the library?
Mrs. Fawcett: I, ah, was principal clerk and head of the overdue department with a full-time assistant and two part-time assistants.
Dan: This is the Binghamton Public Library?
Mrs. Fawcett: This is in the Binghamton Public Library.
Dan: Now going back to when you first came here, Mrs. Fawcett, you said your husband was—took a parish here in the city?
Mrs. Fawcett: Yes.
Dan: But he only lived for a year and a half.
Mrs. Fawcett: A year and a half.
Dan: What church was he—
Mrs. Fawcett: That was the Trinity M.E. Zion Church. At that time it was located on Sherman Place over in the 7th Ward, it has since moved in to the 1st Ward at Oak and Lydia.
Dan: And he only lived a year and a half.
Mrs. Fawcett: A year and a half, and ah, he had begun such a fine work in the community until he must have felt I was capable of carrying on his work until the end of his conference year, which was in June and, ah, which I did. Of course I had studied for the ministry.
Dan: You were ordained to the ministry yourself?
Mrs. Fawcett: I was ordained as a minister to carry on, and when we went to conference, the Bishop of the conference decided that there were other things that I could do and that he would send a man here. In the meantime I had taken the examination, ah, for the, this job in the Library, and so in leaving the church I went into this program. But my experience has been, and it probably still exists today, a Black person going into any new job or being the first one in that job, still has butterflies—still seems to be concerned as to whether he will be received appreciatively.
Dan: Well do you think it is because of the color of their skin or their education?
Mrs. Fawcett: It is definitely because he is a Black person.
Dan: You have had, ah, a very sound background, educational background—you’re going to school and everything—more so than the average, I think today you will agree, no matter where you go, you could go right in and get a job.
Mrs. Fawcett: Oh yeah.
Dan: With your educational background.
Mrs. Fawcett: Yes.
Dan: Whereas, ah, today of course things have changed. I mean that, ah, you are not required to have as much educational background. At the same time whereas the more you have the more opportunities prevail—the chances of getting a position, but ah, you certainly had a very—you were well educated before you came north. Now did you ever have any children, Mrs. Fawcett?
Mrs. Fawcett: No, no children.
Dan: No children—that’s too bad. Of course you were only married—how long were you married?
Mrs. Fawcett: Well I remarried, now.
Dan: You're remarried?
Mrs. Fawcett: Yes, we were married, ah, a year and a half, and we were in Key West, Florida, two years and a half. We were married around 4-5 years when he passed, and then I remained a widow until 1941, when I married my beloved husband Claude, and he was in the Service at that time, and ah, speaking of that, it reminds me of the attitude of people right here in Binghamton in 1941, when it was, ah, publicized in the, ah, newspapers that a troop of Black soldiers would be stationed at the Armory here, ah, on Washington Street, and the reverberations, the newspapers and the statements of the people and, ah, they just did not want a Black troop here, that it was going to destroy the community. Now these men were serving their country—they were in the Army to serve their country but there was quite, ah, quite, ah, disgusting to say the least of feelings among the white community, but they came, they proved themselves.
Dan: Well I know when I was inducted—ah, not when I was inducted, but when I took my basic training—I think Dr. Dorsay was in at the same time, although I am not personally acquainted with the Doctor, but I knew that he was at the same base as I was—it was at Camp Lee, Virginia. Mrs. Fawcett, are you acquainted at all with, ah, Underground Railroad stations?
Mrs. Fawcett: Ah, to a degree I am.
Dan: I mean, to your knowledge or hearsay.
Mrs. Fawcett: Ah yes, because you see there is nothing in the history. Now when I did this documentary on Deep Are the Roots, I tried to trace many of the Underground stations in this area and, ah, I know that, ah, out in the town of Maine there was one and at the Gonzales home, and after doing much research through the library, I found this home. I contacted the Gonzales, and when WBNG did the shooting of this documentary, ah, most of it was done at her home, and ah, you see so many of, and, and this is going to be interesting because, ah, in the school system, so many of those of the young people do not realize that the Underground Railroad was not a railroad such as we know it.
Dan: Not per se. (chuckle).
Mrs. Fawcett: That’s right, but it was a sort of follow the drinking holes, ah, when these slaves would escape and, ah, through some way, they travel mostly by night and most of them by streams, and they would always be able to make some contact with some white family who would be on the lookout.
Dan: They were more or less places of refuge.
Mrs. Fawcett: Places of refuge. Now, ah, Montrose has a large home that was one of the Underground sites and, ah—
Dan: Do you know of any in Binghamton?
Mrs. Fawcett: Ah, I understand that where the old Federal building is, there used to be a building there, a home there on that site that was one time, but this I have never been able to, ah, really make something that would be a fact.
Dan: Of course that was quite a few years ago.
Mrs. Fawcett: But, ah, I do know that this home in Maine, and from Maine into Lisle, there was one, and Owego there was another, and then into Ithaca, Elmira, and then we went on north into Canada, and you know, it is rather interesting, ah, how the terminology “Underground Railroad” came about. Ah, according to history, ah, in Virginia there was this large slave owner, and this particular day one of these men, a slave, jumped into the river to lead to the other side, and ah, he immediately called the other slaves and some of his help and they got into a boat, and by the time they got to the other side of the river, they searched the ground all around and they couldn’t find this slave, and when he went back, ah, to his plantation, when they said ""Did you get him?"" and he said, “No, he must have gone underground.”
Dan: That’s how the term originated, huh?
Mrs. Fawcett: That’s how the term originated.
Dan: Now is Mr. Fawcett still living?
Mrs. Fawcett: Oh yeah, ah, it’s funny you don't know him, because he was in the catering business here in Binghamton for over 25 years, matter of fact he still does some catering.
Dan: Is that right?
Mrs. Fawcett: Ah, but he is retired from this, ah, to a large degree, but he did catering for some of the finest families, weddings and what have you in this community, Montrose, Ithaca and all around. He is now working for the State at the new State Building. He is the night supervisor of the housekeeping department. He's been there since the building opened.
Dan: So most of your time here in Binghamton was spent with the Library. Are you acquainted with Mr. Newcomb, who is a retired librarian from the University?
Mrs. Fawcett: Yes.
Dan: You do know him?
Mrs. Fawcett: Yes.
Dan: Well that’s fine, he's on vacation right now.
Mrs. Fawcett: Oh he is.
Dan: And I imagine he will be interested in this interview when he returns.
Mrs. Fawcett: Yes.
Dan: He is helping us out with this program.
Mrs. Fawcett: Oh, marvelous.
Dan: Yeah, so is there anything else you would like to add, Mrs Fawcett? You're affiliated with what church now?
Mrs. Fawcett: Trinity M.E. Zion Church.
Dan: The same church.
Mrs. Fawcett: And, ah, I am a member of the Urban League and NAACP. I am the founder, which I am very proud of, of the Semper Fidelis Women’s Club. And it is the affiliate of the Empire State Federation of Colored and we do a very fine job, communitywise, on all levels of community life. I have received all types of plaques. Last year I was the first Black woman to be honored by the Broome County Statehood of Women, which I am quite proud to receive for my work in the community.
Dan: Would you care to tell me how old you are, Mrs. Fawcett?
Mrs. Fawcett: I am 74.
Dan: 74—that’s wonderful. You've been retired just about two or three years?
Mrs. Fawcett: Yes, three years.
Dan: Three years.
Mrs. Fawcett: I retired in 1974.
Dan: I see—well that’s fine.
Mrs. Fawcett: I thank the Lord I am still active and capable of carrying on.
Dan: Well I certainly appreciate your calling us and consenting to this interview, and I've enjoyed it very much.
Mrs. Fawcett: Well I've enjoyed doing it. I like to talk of—it’s rather encouraging to see the change that has taken place in our community.
Dan: As long as it is a change for the better.
Mrs. Fawcett: It is, it definitely is a change for the better.
Dan: That’s good.
Mrs. Fawcett: Because now people can go about living their lives. Black people can, ah, with a feeling of security with the, what shall I say, with a feeling you are definitely a part of the community structure, and that you're not just something standing on the sidelines waiting to be given a handout, and that is very reassuring to the Black people of the community.
Dan: Well that’s wonderful.
Mrs. Fawcett: And I might add this, that unlike, ah, most people think, white people in the community think that there is a dense concentration of Black people in the community—there isn't. Ah, the, ah, like to refer to the Susquehanna area and all, but you find as many white people in that area—
Dan: Oh yes, definitely.
Mrs. Fawcett: —as Black people. Even before they began to move them out, and now Black people are scattered all throughout Broome County, Binghamton, Endicott, Endwell, Vestal.
Dan: I remember my grandparents—their first home was down on Tudor Street.
Mrs. Fawcett: Yes, yes.
Dan: In fact years ago, it was Irish and just as many Jews down there.
Mrs. Fawcett: Yes, because the Rosefakys were there.
Dan: Sure, a lot of them originated down there.
Mrs. Fawcett: And, ah, the Koffmans moved now, with the Loan Company I believe.
Dan: Well I thank you very much, Mrs. Fawcett. Anything you'd like to add before I turn this off?
Mrs. Fawcett: No, I think that is about it.
Dan: Okay.
",,,,"33:55 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Mrs. Beccye Fawcett",,,,1978-01-05,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Fawcett, Beccye -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; New Orleans (La.); New Orleans University; Key West (Fla.); Binghamton (N.Y.); African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Underground Railroad; Race discrimination; Binghamton Public Library; Trinity M.E. Zion Church",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/63ec4a999473e17b11c7a63ed32e9b61.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9caf37fda8e1f70ccbfc6cd9d7a03c7f.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5cf6be3a59a174afc77008447fb5bbe3.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3748b4313f93667ee22f1a04f83afaef.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/de72d673cae70e097781c21a47184f9c.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2d21fd0677bc67aef538988c5b0d7364.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c798aaac066608a4f9cb26007a52d03.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f359ccffb1c92297e56ba02ea498f6f8.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6c7a2e00347edcea8efc66d0dfbb408a.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8d5153a862022b2943265a60852f5adb.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fc18750c15b823ba41564978631bc76b.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/da72ea754a74362c1913594f9f88b0cc.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 518,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/518,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"49:06 Minutes ; 10:58 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Florence Parsons Isenburg",,"Isenburg, Florence Parsons ; Wood, Wanda",,"audio/mp3 ","Isenburg, Florence Parsons -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Chenango Bridge (N.Y.); Farms; Teachers -- Interviews; Cortland (N.Y.) Normal School","Florence Parsons Isenburg talks about her family farm in Chenango Bridge, NY and the crops they raised, social activities, and her upbringing. She describes how things were done on the farm, including tasks and chores, methods of cleaning, cooking, and farming and what the neighborhood was like. She discusses how farming changed with the advents of installed water systems, bathrooms from outhouses, mail delivery, the first telephone, and electric service. She describes her education and notes that she attended the Cortland Normal School. She discusses her first teaching positions, how the local school system changed while she was there. She details how methods of teaching changed over the years, as well as, how lifestyle changed over time. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-01-12,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recordings 34A; Recording 34B ",,"Wood, Wanda","Isenburg, Florence Parsons",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Florence Parsons Isenburg
Interviewed by: Wanda Wood
Date of interview: 12 January 1978
Wanda: This is Wanda Wood: interviewer. And our respondent is Mrs. Florence Isenburg of 1216 Poppy Avenue, Warrington, Florida. The date is 12 January, 1978.
Florence: I have been asked to record some of my memories of my early life. I was born May 14, 1889, so I will soon be 89 years old.
Marge [Florence’s daughter]: Go.
Florence: —to a farm family living at Chenango Bridge near the Chenango River. Our family consisted of my father and mother Herbert and Emma Parsons and one sister. The house we lived in is still standing and occupied, but is very old as it was owned by my grandparents and perhaps built or partly built by my grandfather, as he was a carpenter. My father loved the farm, which he purchased from his mother when he married. He raised vegetables, including potatoes, sweet corn, tomatoes, onions, beans, melons, berries and had many fruit trees.This produce he carried to market with a team of horses and wagon to sell to the grocery stores, hotels and hucksters or street peddlers. On the farm we also raised pigs, cows, chickens and had two horses to do the farm work. With all of these vegetables and animals we had plenty of good, nourishing food. We had a grocery store but were not able to buy any baked goods or fresh fruits or vegetables, so we practically lived off the farm.
Mother made butter from the cows’ milk. After straining it in the milk cans, it was set in the cellar until the cream came to the top, when it was skimmed off into a large pail. After a few days it was poured into a wooden churn with a dasher by plunging the dasher up and down for a few minutes until the butter was separated from the sour milk, which was then called buttermilk. The butter was taken out in a wooden butter bowl, washed, salted and packed in jars. Most of it was sold, but we used all we needed. Mother worked very hard as she had no household appliances, no running water, no electricity. She made all of our clothes, washed using a rubbing board after heating the water on the stove. We had a refrigerator cooled by large blocks of ice which was stored in an ice house after being cut on the river in the winter and stored for summer use. The refrigerator didn't keep the food very cold, so most of it was carried to the cellar. But one advantage of having the ice was that we had homemade ice cream, which was delicious.
It was a good life. We did not miss the things we had never had. Everyone did his share of the work. Summers were very busy, but in winter we had time to sit around the fire, or visit with a neighbor, occasionally. Of course usually when we went to the neighbor's home in the evening they popped corn and brought big red apples from the cellar for our refreshments. Mother canned and pickled hundreds of jars of fruits and vegetables which were stored in the cellar for winter. Dad butchered a hog, making sausage and ham for our own use. There was always a ham for Sunday dinner or for company. People now are complaining about their utility bills which are high—are high. We had no utility bills as we had no electricity, no gas, no telephone, no garbage collection, no running water, no mail delivery. And yet, we did not feel depressed or poor. The church was the center of social life. We looked forward to Sunday when we could wear our one best dress and see all our friends. Occasionally there was a church supper when everyone took a covered dish and enjoyed a meal with friends. There were also simple church socials in the summertime. The principal event of summer was the Sunday School picnic, which was held at either Ross Park in Binghamton or at Lily Lake. At the park were animals in cages and a merry-go-round. At the lake were boats and we could go bathing but the water was so cold so the children all preferred to·the park—to go to the park. A bountiful dinner was supplied by all who attended.
The one-room rural school which I attended from ages 6-14 was on a lot adjoining our farm. My sister and I had only to walk across the garden to get to school. That had advantages and disadvantages. It was very easy to get there even in winter when the snow was deep, but in good weather Mother insisted that we come home for lunch, which in our house was called dinner, the main meal of the day. That took too much of our noon hour when we wanted to play with the other children. There were usually 15-25 pupils of all ages and grades from 1-8 with one teacher. This teacher was also the janitor, sweeping the floor, hanging the flag, getting the pail of water, building the fire unless she engaged one of the boys to do it. She received about $8.00 per week and usually boarded with one of the families. In earlier days the teachers boarded around, that is, stayed a week in a place with some of the parents where they paid no board. Then when they paid board it was $2.50 per week. We sometimes boarded—we sometimes boarded a teacher.
There were two doors at school—they were two doors—two doors from a hall—one for the boys, one for the girls. In the center of the room was a large pot-bellied stove, which burned wood in summer and coal in winter. There were four rows of double seats in graduated sizes. The teacher's desk faced these with a large recitation bench between. As the class recited they left their seats and sat on the recitation bench. While one class recited the others were supposed to be preparing their own lessons. With so many classes they were necessarily short and pupils had to do much of the work for themselves without the teacher's help. That had some advantages. Teachers were allowed to punish the disobedient ones—and usually did so to keep order. I well remember several of my teachers and know I had a feeling of fear and admiration for them. They believed in the adage “spare the rod and spoil the child,” so they didn't spoil the child.
It would seem that under these conditions education would have been poor, but we were obliged to memorize tables, to memorize spelling, to study maps and to learn many facts from our reading which are not required today. [Parents] were obliged to furnish the children's books, pencils, and papers. Some slate pencils were used to save paper. Every year the teacher was allowed to borrow 25 books from the state library for use during the year. It was an exciting day when the books arrived to see what we were getting to read. There was a bookcase in our room but very few books. Our blackboards were boards painted with black paint which soon wore off. After a time, one progressive trustee had some real blackboards installed. In the rear of the building—on either side—was a small outhouse or privy, as they were called. One for the girls, one for the boys, with a very high board fence between. In the hall, on a high shelf, was a water pail and dipper from which everyone drank—no fear of germs in those days!
I credit my 8th grade teacher in preparing me to take the Regents Exams which must be passed in order to enter High School. They came from the State and were uniform, used in all schools. I had to go to Chenango Forks on the train to take them, and as I had never been to a strange school, I was frightened. There were exams in all subjects which took two days, but I passed them all due to my very good teaching. Now I had finished our rural school and there was no high school nearby—what was I to do? The high school in Binghamton was the nearest, but we had no way of getting back and forth. We found that there was a train service going north to Whitney Point 15 miles away, so my parents decided to send me there. The train returning at 4 P.M. was a freight train with a small coach for passengers in the rear. It was slow, but it allowed us to do our homework. The D.L. & W. Railroad issued special monthly tickets to students. I well remember my first day at high school in Whitney Point. The building looked very large to me. The lower grades were on the first floor and high school on the second floor. I climbed the stairs and straight ahead of me was the large auditorium where pupils were sitting. Mother had made me a new dark blue dress and I had a dark blue hat. Everyone wore hats in those days. I did not notice the cloakroom at the left, so walked right into the room with my hat on my head. I was so embarrassed as the others laughed, so I have never forgotten about it. High school in those days did not provide so many subjects as they do today. There were no easy subjects like Shop, Bowling, Homemaking, etc. Everyone must take Math, English, History and a foreign language or two—later Geometry, Physics, Science, etc. I remember we had a small laboratory where we dissected several small animals. I did not enjoy that. On finishing a course we were obliged to pass a Regents Examination sent by the State, and after completing a certain number of subjects we were graduated. I was then 18 years old in 1907.
Someone asked me recently why I became a school teacher. I really had not thought about it before. I believe there were several factors which brought it about. My grandmother Parsons had nine children, and sometime during their life, eight of them taught school. I also had several cousins who taught. As I have said our home was the old farmhouse where the nine Parsons children were brought up. In the upper hall and attic were shelves of books they had used and left. I used to enjoy looking at them and reading them. I think these things influenced me to become a teacher, besides I always have loved school. There were several Normal schools in New York State. They are now 4 year colleges. Cortland was the nearest to us and I had some cousins living there.Today it is an easy drive on a good road of about 40 miles. In 1907 it was a long journey on a train. My parents bought me a trunk, which I still have to pack my clothes, as I didn't expect to come home often. I got a room near the college building and took my meals at a home nearby with about 20 other girls. Our studies consisted in methods of teaching, psychology, and review of all other grade subjects. Later we had observed model teaching using students from the grades who attended school here. During one last term we did the teaching under supervision of the Normal teachers. This was the most difficult, as we knew we were being criticized. I joined the sorority Clionian. We had a meeting room in the building and had many good times, however I was very homesick much of the time I was here. Nowadays a student could drive home every week if they desired.
My first teaching experience was in a small rural school similar to, in many ways, to the one I had attended as a child. It was on Upper Front Street, then called Christian Street. I had 12 or 15 pupils in several grades and received $10 per week and did the janitor work. As it was about 2 ½ miles from home, I often drove a horse and buggy in summer or a horse and sleigh in winter. If Dad needed the horse I walked. Sometimes the snow was about to my knees, so I arrived very wet and had to build a fire in the pot-bellied stove before I could get dry. As the children arrived they were also cold and wet, so they sat or stood around the stove much of the forenoon. I can still smell the wet mittens and scarves as they were drying. We opened the school in the morning by a Bible reading and repeating the Lord’s Prayer. Books were hard to come by, but many times some second-hand ones were to be found by an older child who had used them. By using the blackboard it was possible to start work in Arithmetic and Spelling, supplemented by books I had selected. Most parents were willing to provide supplies for their children. The teaching was largely individual as the children were all at different levels of learning. A few subjects could be taught to the whole group at one time, such as Writing, Health and Physiology. I do not remember having any problems with the children as to discipline. In those days children respected their teachers and looked up to them. What the teacher said was right. How different it is today! At noon we used to go out and ride downhill—there was a hill nearby—and then in the evening, after school was out, we used to go skating. That was great fun.
Most of my 20 years of teaching was done in my home district where I had attended school. For several years I taught in the same small one-room building until the population grew—until there were about 40 pupils, just too many for one teacher. A new building was erected and two teachers hired. The salary had greatly advanced from $10.00 per week to $40.00. I taught grades 5 to 8 in the new school. It seemed that this would be sufficient for many years, but in a short time the town had grown so that a larger school was necessary and also a high school.
I will tell you a little more about our neighborhood. We had a few near neighbors whom we saw often in the evening, or if anyone was sick. We seldom called a doctor, but neighbors came to help and always brought food. There was a doctor who made house calls, so in that way we were more fortunate than people are today. Midwives delivered the babies, doctors were not needed. My grandmother delivered dozens of them.The threshers came once a year to thresh the grain and we always had husking bees in the evening which were lots of fun. Mother always had a big dinner for the husk—or for the threshers. At the end of the bridge—farther end of the bridge on the right was a blacksmith shop where Dad took the horses to be shod. I used to go along and watch. On the left was the tollhouse where the man lived who collected the toll from the Chenango Canal, which ran along close to the river. I do not remember when the canal was being used but in winter it froze and made a wonderful skating pond.
Hiram Johnson had a small grocery store near the depot and railroad. Near the door on the left were about 30 boxes for mail. That was our post office. He also sold stamps. We had no daily paper, but a weekly Binghamton Republican came once a week. Dad liked to go to the store in the evening to sit around the stove and hear the news. His excuse was to go for the mail.
Nearly every home had a hitching post and horse block in front at the roadside. Callers usually came with a horse and wagon, so the hitching post was necessary. The horse block was a large stone or else a lot of little stones piled up. It was necessary because the wagons were much higher from the ground than our cars are today. Women wore long skirts so it was quite difficult to get into them. By standing on the horse block and taking a step that extended from the wagon, they could climb into the wagon seat.
Our kitchen was the most important room of the house. It was a large room with a hard pine floor which Mother cleaned and oiled to keep it shiny. A black iron cook stove kept us warm and cooked and baked much delicious food. There was a reservoir attached to one side which we kept filled with—to provide the hot water. It was all the hot water we had except for the tea kettle, because we had no bathroom.
A large extension table had many uses. We ate on it often, although Mother liked to set the table in the dining room. The table also provided a place for us to study, to read, and to sort beans in the winter. Dad raised shell-beans, but before he could sell them they had to be looked over to remove any poor ones and shells. The table was lighted by a kerosene lamp. Often in the evening we had to help Mother sew carpet rags. The only carpets we had were woven on looms—made of rags. They were woven in strips about one yard wide, and sewed. Aunt Celia had one room where she had a large loom. She wove carpets for us and for many other people. At the end of the room was a black iron sink and pump—which—the pump raised water from a cistern. Our drinking water came from a well and bucket in the backyard. Behind the stove was a shelf which held a row of kerosene lamps, which had to be cleaned and filled frequently. On the shelf was a very old clock with wooden works and two heavy iron weights. Father wound it every night as he went to bed.
Bedrooms were very pleasant in summer but very cold in winter. Our house was heated by two stoves—cook stove in the kitchen and a parlor stove in the parlor. As we had no bathroom, bedrooms had a wash bowl and pitcher and a washstand which in the bottom had a little door which held the chamber pot. We had to be sure no water was left in the pitcher in winter as it would freeze. Some of the older beds were called cord beds—instead of springs, a heavy rope was woven across between the side rails to hold up the mattress. The mattress—the mattress was a pad and then ticking filled with corn husks or dried straw and on top of that a feather bed—filled—a bed filled with feathers. Sheets were not bought ready-made—as they are today. Some were made of muslin, often unbleached muslin which was a yard wide, so the sheet always had a seam down the middle. When they began to wear thin women turned the sheet sewing the outside edges together so that they would last longer. Other sheets were made of linen. Linen is made from flax—stems of the flax plant. This was another task that colonial women had to do. There was a small flax wheel and a larger spinning wheel which made the fibers into threads. The thread was then woven on a loom to make linen cloth. Sheets and pillow cases, tablecloths and napkins were made of the linen cloth. The sheets also had a seam down through the middle. I think sometimes the linen was used for fine underwear, such as for a bridal outfit. Sheet-blankets made out of cotton or wool were also used in winter with many bed quilts. Quilting bees were another social activity. When a quilt top was finished the neighbor women were invited in to help put it on the quilting frame and to quilt it with many fine stitches. There are many quilt patterns. Some of the most popular were Wedding Ring, Double Irish Chain, Dresden Plate, Necktie, and Log Cabin. A bedspread or coverlet called a counterpane was woven on a loom using white cotton warp and navy blue, or occasionally red wool for the woof. There were many beautiful patterns. They were reversible and often had the weaver's initials woven in the corner. They also were seamed through the center.
People dressed differently in those days. I have already stated that women's skirts were long. They were also full, covering two petticoats. In winter everyone wore long underwear, that is the long legs and long sleeves of heavy knitted cotton. In summer the underwear still covered much of the body, but was of a lighter weight. Women wore corsets laced in the back and it was the style to lace them tight to have a small waistline. Over these was worn a corset cover, a garment without sleeves and low neck to cover the corset. Bras and shorts had not been invented. Some men working outside in the cold weather wore felt boots extending to the knees and over them a rubber arctic with buckles. My father wore rubber boots with sock slippers inside. Blue jeans did not have the popularity they have today. They were worn by farm laborers and those doing menial jobs. It was unheard of for a girl to wear pants of any kind. Children’s clothing was somewhat like their parents’. Girls’ dresses were well below the knees. I had one best dress for winter made of wool, and one summer best dress for Sunday. The winter dress just before—was made just before Christmas and the summer dress for Children's Day, which was celebrated with a program in our church on the second Sunday of June. Of course we had several other dresses for school but not too many. We were—we wore them until they were—we grew out of them or they were worn out. Bathing suits have made the greatest change of all. How shocked my mother would be to see a present day, bather! Ladies' bathing suits were bloomers to the knees, often with black stockings and sneakers below. The blouse often had a sailor collar. They were made of a material called brilliantine. Oh yes, we also wore a cap to cover our hair. Children wore an old dress and a pair of underpants. Men's shorts—men’s suits were knitted cotton which came to the knees and covered most of the body. We really went “bathing” instead of “swimming,” as it was difficult to swim with so many clothes. The first sewing machine we had was a Howe, propelled by a pedal, but much sewing was done by hand. Ladies would not think of making bed quilts on a machine. They were all sewed by hand and quilted.
Only one home in our town had a bathroom. It was very different from today's bath—baths. The tub was zinc—in a wooden case like a coffin. The water to flush the tub—the toilet—was in a wooden box near the ceiling with a chain extending from it, which was pulled to release the water.
Marge: I don't know what happened here, Wanda, but there's more, so just let it continue to play.
Florence: In summer quite often we had the company of bees and in winter our stay was short because of the cold. Father's farm lantern made a cheery light if necessary to make an evening call. These were called backhouses or privies, and on Hallowe'en it often happened that the backhouse was overturned by celebrators. Speaking of baths—the rest of us who had no baths—bathrooms, used the wash bowl and pitcher in our bedroom in summer, but in winter we filled a washtub half full of water and bathed in front of the kitchen stove on Saturday night.
Father planned an ambitious project to have running water in our house. Our farm extended on the north up a very steep hill where here was a natural spring of water. In order to pipe the water down a ditch had to be dug through a very stony hard soil. It also had to cross over a, quite a long—a big hill which we called the knoll. To avoid freezing, this ditch must be at least 4 or 5 feet deep. Today it would be done by machinery, but at that time it had to be dug with pick and shovel, and with lots of muscle and perseverance. A small lead pipe was placed in the ditch and although the pressure was weak—we at last had cold running water in our kitchen sink. It was several years after that before we had a bathroom.
As population increased, telephone and mail service became necessary. A stock company was formed called the Chenango Valley Company, in which interested people bought stock and a line was constructed with a central office in the little village—at first in a private home. By calling through central we were able to talk to Binghamton. Eventually a rural mail delivery—R.F.D. #4—was inaugurated, but we still, even today, have a post office in Chenango Bridge. Electricity came later, when I was about 25 years old, as I remember giving up my kerosene lamps and having electric lights put in the house. We finally had radio. It was an Atwater-Kent, the first one we had. The program I remember best was Amos and Andy.
Here is a little more about my school-teaching days. You may be sure with 15 or 25 pupils in about 5 or 6 grades, the teacher was very busy and classes had to be short—about 15 minutes each. About the time of World War II some department in education hierarchy decided that Physical Training should be taught in all the schools. In order to teach it, the teachers were obliged to take lessons. So we had several classes where we learned to give the commands for daily drills similar to those given to the soldiers. These we were obliged to do at least twice a day. This was required for several years and then discontinued. I am sure the children got all the exercise that they needed at recess and noon hours. Most of them had a long walk home—there were no school buses in those days.
There have been many changes in schools since my school days of 80 years ago, not in just the buildings, but in the many other ways. There's no doubt that the present buildings are much finer, more convenient, conducive to the health and welfare of the children. Also there is no comparison in the cost of the two buildings, and in the cost of their upkeep. A teacher today may receive in one day what a teacher in an early rural school received in a month. But are the results in proportion to the cost? Are children today so much better educated? I grant that young people are now better informed than in early days, but I attribute that partly to the various ways that news is disseminated, such as radio, television, magazines, newspapers and not entirely to their formal education. Perhaps I'm not qualified to judge the education of today as I have not taught in nearly thirty years, but I have grandchildren who have gone through the grade schools, through high school and two have been to college, so I have had some contact with present day schools in Florida. I know schools differ from state to state, so perhaps what I say about our Florida schools may not apply in Broome County. However I think in a general way all states have their problems in education.
There has been a universal complaint that high school students and even some college students cannot read as they should. Recently all students here about to graduate from high school, had to take a literacy test in order to receive a diploma. What is the cause or causes of this deficiency? It cannot be laid to the teachers entirely, as it is so widespread. I may be wrong, but I think I can see at least partly the causes. About twenty or twenty-five years ago the word method of teaching reading in the primary grades, was introduced. A child was taught word for word by repetition of that word in the stories he read. He was helpless to learn new words until they appeared in his reading lessons. Formerly, children were taught phonics, learning the sounds of the letters so that when he encountered a new word, he had the ability to sound it out and pronounce it. The textbooks used were written to teach the word method, so unless the teacher taught it on her own, they did not learn phonics. Many teachers did use the sound method, and that—pupils became better readers. I saw examples of this in my own grandchildren. At last the phonics method is being taught in many schools, so hopefully there will be an improvement in the reading ability of pupils.
As I see it, another cause of poor readers is the fact that with the popularity of TV children do not read for themselves. Many children haven't read such classics as Black Beauty, Gulliver’s Travels, Prince and the Pauper, Alice in Wonderland and so forth. It is easier to watch a TV program than to exert oneself to read a book. TV has its place and children learn much from it if they watch the right programs, but not for several hours every day to the exclusion of exercise and reading. I discussed the school situation with one of the teachers. She informed me that one of the problems was the lack of interest of the parents. Parents, in many cases, consider that they have no obligation to see that the children are doing well in school or doing their homework or if they have—that they do not have any duty to help the teacher. Instead of taking an interest in the homework, they prefer to watch television. Many children need the encouragement of the parents to do their best work.
As a teacher is not allowed to use any physical means of discipline, and pupils know this, the discipline becomes a problem. In olden days we were allowed and expected to give a child a sharp slap with our hand or ruler, if they deserved it. Now a teacher could be sued or brought to court if she did such a thing. Consequently, like the doctor, she needs to carry insurance to protect herself. And very often a child reports an injury was—caused by the teacher when she had no part in it. One example: a boy was angry with his teacher for correcting him. He had some scratches on his arm, which he told his mother was done by the teacher. After a conference by those involved in the principal's office, the boy finally confessed that the cat had scratched him. In olden days many parents told their children, “If you get a whipping at school, you’ll get another at home.” That was going too far the other way, but it was a help to the teacher. Some teachers sent their children out in the backyard to get a switch off from a bush out there to bring in to whip themselves. They tried real hard to find a real small switch.
The subject of English also includes grammar. Most teachers require the reading of books and the writing of book reports, but some neglect the teaching of grammar, which I consider very important. How can a person use good English if they do not know the parts of speech, and the declensions, parsing and diagramming of sentences? This may not be true of all high schools, but ours here have had what I consider too many fancy specialized courses, which take time that should be devoted to something more important. Under the name of Physical Education they take pupils on school buses to bowling alleys, golf courses, roller-skate rinks, swimming pools for exercise. So much time is consumed in going and returning that very little time is left for the activity. Also parents are required to pay for their children's use of the equipment. If a child does not have the money for these things, he gets a failing mark on Physical Ed. Homemaking and Woodworking are two other easy courses which are good in their place, if they do not detract from the basic academic subjects. Girls are required to take the Homemaking, but boys are not.
A few years ago a subject called New Math, complete with new textbooks, was introduced in the schools. I have examined the books and have talked with interested people about the subject, but I am not able to intelligently criticize it. I think I understand the underlying principle. It is to give pupils the real meaning of a number. Five is not just a symbol, but means five articles, and “five times five equals twenty-five” is not just an equation, but means five groups with five articles in each group. In other words, to understand what numbers stand for, some of the methods to prove it are time-consuming. So after demonstrating the real meaning of a number, I think tables should be memorized. Ah—now some teachers are combining the old methods with the new. I understand that the New Math carries over into Algebra and Geometry and perhaps makes the three subjects—
I well remember the first automobile I saw. One of the progressive farmers, Eugene Chamberlain, bought it. It looked much like a farm wagon on wheels. It was very high up—it even had a whip-socket. The wheels were hard—no rubber tires—and it traveled rather slowly. My sister and I ran along beside it and had no trouble keeping up with it. It was several years before my father felt that he could afford a car, which was then a Ford. As he has always driven horses, so when he tried to drive the car, he was looking both sides of him to see what was going on along the roadside and when he wanted to stop he said, “Whoa, whoa back,"" just as if he was talking to the horses.
Marge: And then he went in the river! [laughter]. All right, go ahead.
Florence: Only one home in our town had a bathroom. It was very different from today's bath. The tub was zinc in a case like a coffin. Water to flush the toilet was in a wooden box near the ceiling with a chain extending from it, which was pulled to release the water. The lavatory was of real marble. The rest of us had to visit a little building at the rear of our houses. These contained three holes, one smaller than the others for small children. Instead of toilet paper, which had not been made yet, we used Sears-Roebuck catalogs. That made a trip interesting, as there was always something to look at in the catalog. In summer quite often we had the company of bees and in winter our stay was short because of the cold. Father’s farm lantern made a cheery light if necessary to make an evening call. These little buildings were called backhouses or privies. Now on Hallowe’en it often happened that the backhouse was overturned by celebrators.
Husking bees was another chance for neighbors to get together for a social evening. Corn had to be husked so it could be fed to the chickens. On a warm evening young and old gathered at one of the neighbors' barns, and as they visited and told stories they husked the corn. If a man found a red ear he could kiss any girl he pleased. Usually the hostess served some refreshments, perhaps homemade doughnuts and cider. As I said before the husks were dried and used to fill the bed-ticks. After the corn was husked, it had to be shelled and the corn cobs made wonderful kindling to start the fires in the kitchen stoves. So nothing was wasted.
Bands of gypsies traveled around the country in summer and I remember once when they came to our town. In those days they had covered wagons, gaily colored and drawn by fine-looking horses. Now they travel with cars. They stopped and set up camp on a river flat where there were no houses nearby, but the neighbors were alarmed, fearing what they might do. So the man who owned the property was asked to have them moved on. They unharnessed the horses, started a fire to cook a meal, and several women in gay dresses, lots of beads and long braids, with very dark skins, ah—came knocking at doors asking to tell our fortunes. If they did not move that—as they did not move that night, everyone locked doors and shut up the chicken coops, as they had a reputation of stealing anything they could find. They left the next day. Gypsies originally wandered around—were wandering tribes in Europe, but now they have come to this country and there are quite a few tribes of them around.
Dad had a sleigh with a long box. Once he took our school for a sleigh ride. We had a string of bells on the horses. He covered the floor with a—of the sleigh with straw to sit on. Some of the boys got out and threw snowballs at the ones in the sleigh.
Riding downhill on our sleds was great fun, and also skating. Skates in those days were fastened on by straps around the toes and ankles. They did not stay on very well. Later we had skates fastened to our shoe—our shoe soles, but most people couldn't afford them. Skating was my favorite sport. When the young couples had sleigh—sleigh rides they usually went to a hall for an oyster stew supper and then square-danced and played such games—kissing games. Those days are gone forever, for even if there were any horses and sleighs, the snowplows have cleared the roads of snow.
Of all the seasons, perhaps winter was the one most enjoyed by the young people. The first snowflakes were hailed with delight. It meant sliding downhill, skating on the ponds, sleigh rides, parties, and best of all—Christmas. Preparations for Christmas were made well in advance as there was little money to spend and even if people were able to go to the stores there was not much—so much—in—ah—many inviting things to buy as there are today. At school, with the teacher's help and suggestions, pupils made gifts for their parents such as pot-holders, needle books, pen-wipers and so forth. Also soon after December first the school began preparation for a Christmas program to be given on the Friday before Christmas when school was out for vacation. First they began practicing Christmas carols and songs of which “Jingle Bells” was perhaps the favorite. The teacher was busy hunting up Christmas poems and plays as every one must have a part, either to speak a piece or sing. Then for busy work on cold stormy days, colored paper was cut in strips and pasted together to make paper chains for decorations. Stars were pasted on the windows and snow scenes were drawn on the blackboards. On the last day of school, everyone cleaned his desk to be ready for the guests to arrive. The mothers came to hear the program. Small gifts, mostly from the ten-cent store, were exchanged. Teachers received handkerchiefs, writing paper and pretty—maybe a pretty dish or some homemade article or candy. She gave each child a gift—perhaps something they could use in school, like a box of colored crayons or a pad. Everyone went home happy and the teacher was relieved that it was over. Christmas is celebrated today in the schools, but in a very different way. One thing is—
[TAPE 2]
Marge: On. The main thing that's lacking—in the schools.
Florence: The meaning of Christmas or any religious reference, is forbidden by law. If children do not go to Sunday School, many of them never know what Christmas is all about. Our town had one church, the Methodist, and there was always a Christmas tree and program—some evening just before Christmas. The Sunday School teachers were responsible for preparing the program, so the children were assigned parts and met after school and on Saturday to practice. Parents brought presents for their children so that, so when Santa arrived he could call each child's name. The tree had no electric lights, but was decorated with the packages which the parents had brought and strings of popcorn and cranberries. Santa always presented each child with a bag containing an orange and some ribbon candy. Oranges were quite a treat as we seldom had any in winter. The best part of Christmas was that spent at home or with our families. I was never taught to believe in Santa Claus, but my sister and I hung our stockings and always found something in them in the morning. Dad went up on our hill where there were many trees and brought us a lovely hemlock which we decorated with paper chains, popcorn and hung all small packages on the branches. Some people used candles, but Mother thought they were too dangerous. As we had two families of relatives, aunts and uncles and children living nearby, we all got together at one of the houses for a big Christmas dinner. After the dinner, gifts were distributed. Gifts in those days were different than today. They didn't cost so much and they were a surprise. Nowadays everyone tells what he or she wants and expects to get, even if it is too expensive. I liked the old gifts much better. One Christmas I received a Bible and on another a gold ring. Mother always made us doll clothes for our dolls, and they were beautifully made of scraps of material and lace left from her sewing.
Marge: One thing that Mom didn't bother writing about that—or talk about the church is that—oh—the church was a very important part of our lives. Oh—you didn't just graduate from one department to the next just 'cause you got that age. Ah—my group, when I was comin' up through, we had to go to Viola Noye's and we had to learn the Beatitudes and the books of the Bible and a lot of other memory work and then we had to go during the eleven o'clock service and recite all this in order to get promoted to the next department. And a—I think this is something that children nowadays aren't expected to do in school or Sunday School and that is to do memory work. And that—is a real shame because it doesn't prepare their mind to remember things.
Florence: When I was a child, a lady by the name of Ada Hall had all the young people come to the church, on Sunday afternoon, where she taught us many, many facts about the Bible and we memorized many things in the Bible. These things have always stood by me and been a great help to me in teaching Sunday School class, which I have done for many, many years.
I have tried to recall how our life many years ago differed from our life today. It was a good life and had some advantages over life today. I shouldn't have repeated there. People tried to live within their means. They rarely bought things they did not have the money to pay for. There was not so much worry about debts as there is today. Installment buying was unheard of. Old people were cared for in their ho—children's homes. There were no nursing homes. Very poor people had to go to the poorhouse, which was supported by taxes. Neighbors were more neighborly. If anyone was sick they did not go to the hospital, but were cared for in the home. Doctors made house calls. There is no comparison in the cost of living today and that of eighty years ago, and although wages are much higher today, expenses have increased proportionately. Of course people today buy things that in olden days would not be considered, even if they were available. Luxuries have become necessities. I have criticized the schools and some phases of education, but school buildings of today are beautiful, teachers are well-educated, much money is spent on the educational system. Children are required to attend school. Much of the material used is furnished, so, on the whole, I think we can be proud of our school systems.
One thing I didn't mention about schools was the writing. As far as I know most teachers do not have any formal penmanship classes. Some children write well, but many do not. Our teachers were obliged to take lessons with Palmer Method writing and have regular penmanship classes in school every day. Palmer Method involves using the muscles of the arm while holding the pen or pencil with the fingers, instead of using the fingers to guide the pencil.
On my father's farm is a peat bog which I believe is the only one in Broome County. Peat represents the first stage in the development of coal, from vegetable matter under pressure. It consists of a brown substance, fibrous and woody, saturated with moisture and can be cut easily. My father cut it out in square blocks, dried them on a rack and ground them up. He then sold the peat for horse bedding. In those days there were many horses in Binghamton and peat moss made a desirable bedding material. Today people buy it as a mulch around shrubbery. Where the peat had been cut out, a little pond formed where we used to skate in the winter. Occasionally the peat area would accidentally get on fire. It burned with an acrid smoke that was very annoying to everybody living nearby. It burned very deep and we had no way of quenching the fire. Finally it burned itself out.
Women's apparel has changed greatly. Just imagine a well-dressed woman walking to church on Sunday morning. She has on a hat or bonnet and shawl or cape for a wrap, a long dress, high-bottomed shoes and black cotton stockings. Her hands were covered with hand-knitted mittens or gloves. Little girls were a small edition of their mothers. Mother's hair was long and twisted in a knot on her head, while the child's was in braids down her back—no bobs or short hair in those days.
There are many other things I could tell you about the good old days, but I think I've done pretty well to remember as much as I have, so I think we'll call this finished.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Frances Kuryla
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 13 January 1978
[This interview concerns Mrs Kuryla's father, Michele Gallo, and her Uncle, Nichola Gallo, hereafter referred to as Uncle Nick. The third voice in the interview on tape is Barbara Gallo, Mrs Kuryla’s sister.]
Dan: Frances, will you relate to me the immigration of your father and your uncle to this country and their life and experiences in the community, and start right there in Italy where they were born?
Frances: Well, they were born in a little town, Padula, in Salerno and my uncle, as an elderly brother, came to America first at the age of seventeen, ah.
Dan: That was your Uncle Nick?
Frances: My Uncle Nick.
Dan: OK.
Frances: And ah, the reason I suppose they did come was their trade, that they thought they would have more of an opportunity to practice their trade, which was stonecutters, and ah, my uncle came in 18—
Dan: —87.
Frances: 1887, and he settled, well, he settled in, ah, Glen Falls. I think it is very difficult—
Dan: When did he come to Binghamton?
Frances: Well, he came to Binghamton in 1897 on a job on the Courthouse. He was employed by Carlucci of Scranton, and he was foreman on this work on the Courthouse. In the meantime he met a young woman, widow woman, who had a business on Chenango Street in the Moon block, and they married and they started this business from then on.
Dan: Now, what business did they start, Frances?
Frances: Candy, candy business.
Dan: Canning?
Frances: Candy store.
Dan: Oh, candy store, OK.
Frances: And then he decided that, ah, to go into a bigger business—he opened up a wholesale grocery and, ah, then on he, ah, chartered his own private bank—the first Italian bank in the area and, ah—
Dan: Where was that located?
Frances: That was on 138 Henry Street.
Dan: 138 Henry Street.
Frances: And what I can remember of it, and it was there until 1926 when they liquidated it.
Dan: And when did you say he started?
Frances: In 1912 it was chartered, in 1914 actually licensed, and ah, I said he had a wholesale grocery, and he also was involved with the steamship agency and money exchange—that was all involved in his business. Then as far as my uncle, as I said, he kept that until he retired in 1926—he gave it all up and he retired to Italy, returned to Italy. He stayed there for a year and then came back to this country. He retired and he was fifty years old when he retired.
Dan: When did he come back?
Frances: In 1927.
Dan: Well, he only stayed in Italy two years, then, and then he came back here and retired.
Frances: He lived at 119 Henry Street.
Dan: So until, 1897 to 1926, let’s see, that’s only thirty years he retired.
Frances: Yeah—he was fifty years old.
Dan: Now you say that he worked on the Courthouse as a foreman?
Frances: Now I understand that he was a foreman, now, this was his trade. Whether he actually did the work there, I don't know.
Dan: Now what building do you know that he worked on?
Frances: Supposedly the Courthouse.
Dan: Another building?
Frances: No, what all I remember that my father and my other uncle worked on other buildings in the area.
Dan: Oh, I see, OK.
Frances: Then my father came in the 1900—he followed his brother here, and I, he, guess he landed in New York and stayed there a while with the family. Then also worked through Carlucci—they had this job to build the Press Building and my father came here as an employee of Carlucci contractors as a stonecutter. He did all the artwork on the doorway, the archway.
Dan: On the—
Frances: Of the Press Building—it took him months to do that. He also told me about the lion heads—there were six of them up on the top and he also told me that each lion had a tooth as long as your arm. I can remember these little things that he told me and how they had to make their own scaffolds—there was no rig, this carving, they also had to do their own scaffolding, you know, and I remember him telling me also, back in those days, in 1904, at that time as a stonecutter, he was making $7.00 a day, which was a big thing back then.
Dan: It was good money in those days.
Frances: In those days.
Dan: Right.
Frances: This is what he used to tell me about it. Then Dad, I guess he got what they call, almost like a miner's, you know, a spot on the lung.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, a lung disease.
Frances: Yes, so he had to give it up and he went back to Italy in 1909 or 1910—he went back to Italy, supposedly to get the cure or whatever it was. So when my Dad came back to America, which must have been about 1910—he was only there for about a year in 1910 and, ah, he gave it up and he went into business with my Uncle Angelo Sessani, they had, like a hotel. Then he met my mother and they decided that he would pull out of that and they got married, in 1915 he married my mother, and they opened up their own store on Fayette Street in the Serafini building. Then in 1921 my dad moved his little store to the building at 9 Fayette Street, you know, where they are now—where Mike was born in 1921. Then he went into the wholesale grocery business and dealt with all the Italian import business—he used to distribute to, like the Arlington and all that. Then when my Uncle retired in 1926, my dad took over the steamship agency and the money exchange—he expanded his business to that, and then Dad retired when—80 years old.
Dan: Until he was 80.
Frances: Yeah, he died in 1971.
Dan: Ah, did this bank, now, that your uncle established—-what was the reason for establishing that? Now, this was an Italian bank, right?
Frances: Yeah, it was a State of New York, but it dealt with the immigrants to be able to help them to speak English. They couldn't speak, you know.
Dan: And then, also—what was the steamship end of it?
Frances: Like the Broome County Travel.
Dan: Just like the Broome County Travel Agency.
Frances: Yeah, it was a travel agency by boat—there was no air.
Dan: That was started in what year?
Frances: I suppose along that time, too—I mean, I can't pin it down.
Dan: He got out of that in 1926 and it just closed.
Frances: He got out of that in 1926 and it just closed, the City Bank, the City Bank, what do you call it where they came in and checked up? And they closed up—you know, that’s when they liquidated his bank.
Dan: Yeah—now, when he established the bank, I mean, did he have to have so much assets? Do you know how much assets there were?
Frances: I don't know how much there were.
Dan: You know, I checked some directories dating back to 1880, 1890, over at Roberson Library, and they had quite a few banks listed and they boasted of capitals of $100,000. Which is—that was a lot of money, you know. Of course, today it’s peanuts.
Frances: Well my cousin Annie, Annie Sassani, I was talking to her yesterday—of course she worked for my uncle, you know, until they liquidated his bank—and she said that very day, that last day when the investigators or whatever came in, they checked it all out or whatever it was, and it came right to the penny—everything—you know, the license was removed as part of it. It had to be licensed.
Dan: Do you know what was the reason why it closed?
Frances: Because he retired.
Dan: Oh, just retired.
Frances: He didn't need to anymore—there was no other reason, he just retired. And then my cousin, she was over there, he took his daughter over there and she married over there.
Dan: And then he came back here.
Frances: And then he came back here.
Dan: And then he was just in retirement after he came back here.
Frances: Yeah.
Dan: But your dad carried on the wholesale grocery.
Frances: My dad—he did not start my father in the wholesale business, he had nothing to do with it. My dad only took from my uncle was the steamship agency and the money exchange, but as far as the business, the wholesale, that was my father’s establishment, not my uncle’s, see what I mean?
Dan: What was your father's? The steamship was your father’s.
Frances: The grocery store was my father’s.
Dan: The grocery store was your father's.
Frances: Yes, but when my uncle closed up all his business, my father took over his steamship agency and money exchange. The bank was not transferable—that was licensed. Uncle Nick had a grocery.
Dan: But you say the money exchange—this was for—?
Frances: Foreign exchange money orders, people who would send money over here.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Frances: Well, that’s about it, of course they were property owners, no doubt about that.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, but your dad, outside of his affiliation with the bank there, was primarily in the grocery business, right?
Frances: Forty-some years.
Dan: You say he worked on the Kilmer Building?
Frances: The Press Building my father worked on.
Dan: The Press Building.
Frances: Of course there was a Kilmer building, too, but they, ah, they used to say the one up near the Arlington was actually the Kilmer building. They called that the Kilmer building—the Landers.
Dan: The Landers, yeah.
Frances: But the Press Building was actually a Kilmer building, he owned it and Dad actually worked on it, I know that for a fact. In fact to look is like, well, it will be there forever. I hate the thought of ever tearing it down.
Dan: In essence, though, Frances, the reason that your uncle came to Broome County was because the contractor down in Scranton had the job for him here, and ah, your dad—having the same trade, he came over too.
Frances: Yeah, you see, they were apprentices—my dad was, in Italy—to the trade. They actually came up from Pennsylvania, but when my dad landed in New York, he had a sister living in New York and he stayed with her for a while. Then he went to Scranton.
Dan: So he did have relatives in the States already.
Francis: Oh yeah, in New York—evidently they came before Dad, but Dad was younger. Eventually all the family resided in Binghamton.
Dan: Yeah, and how about the language barrier? How did they overcome that?
Frances: My uncle spoke fluently, English fluently. Dad still, he was, of course he was hard of hearing, so what—ah, when he first came, whatever he learned in the beginning, that sort of stood with him, so he still had the accent, but Dad read.
Dan: Did he have to attend any schools here at all?
Frances: No, but they were educated in Europe—they both had, like a high school education. Uncle Nick was more with the English speaking than Dad was—like, like he was a great friend of Harvey Hinman, the man who used to be the Chancellor of the State of New York, and Senator Clark. I've got pictures of my uncle with Senator Clark—they used to be buddy-buddies with Senator Clark in my day. You know the ones who had Senator Clark over on the old Vestal Highway, that had the farm there—well, ah, I have pictures of my uncle—he mingled more with the political element. He did quite a bit, like during the election time—took the Italian people to go out and vote—like a leader, like you know. People depended on him a lot for help in translations and stuff. He was like my mother. My mother did a lot of that—of course Mother was American-born. She was born in Scranton, Pennsylvania, but Mother did a lot of, for instance, my dad's trade or my dad's business. Dad didn't come in contact with the others in his earlier days, he dealt more with the immigrants. Like when they came, showing them the way to get around and handling a lot of stuff. Now my mother would do a lot of interpreting for these people who couldn't speak English, although she was American-born but she spoke fluent Italian. So this is what, their contribution toward, you know, the Italian community—helping the immigrant when they came, you know. They didn't know which way to turn and the store was there and they, it was like home to them—it was that area where the Italians all sort of settled.
Dan: Right—that was down—
Frances: —on Fayette Street.
Dan: Fayette Street.
Frances: I don't know whether my dad's store was actually the first store. I'm not sure.
Dan: Now, in that neighborhood, of course you had not only Italians’ nationalities, but you had Irish and you had Jewish.
Frances: Yeah, Irish, Jewish, and Italians, and that’s it.
Dan: In that particular area.
Frances: And there wasn't nothing else but that particular area where Dad’s store was, was of Italian extraction, almost everybody there. The only Italian church was there, most functions were right around, so—as I said, as far as my dad, Uncle Nick was more political, more social than my dad. My dad was more of the business element of Italian people, so he therefore spoke English, but it was broken, you know—he could write.
Dan: But of course the clientele he dealt with, I mean, probably couldn't speak anything but Italian.
Frances: Right.
Dan: And of course your mother was an interpreter.
Frances: Yeah, many of the new citizens.
Dan: And you say what year your Dad retired? How many years was he in business down there?
Frances: Ah—
Dan: Just approximately.
Frances: Wait a minute, when did Kennedy get shot?
Dan: About fifteen years ago.
Frances: That’s when Dad retired, so Dad would be 90, ah, he died in 1971. About 1966, he closed because he got sick.
Dan: 1966.
Frances: I think that’s when he quit. He opened his business in 1915.
Dan: Now this bank that your uncle established, ah, that was the only Italian bank—there hasn't been one since, has there?
Frances: I think there was, ah, I'm not quite sure. [To Barbara, her sister] Was Mr. Buono—? [Back to Dan] I don't think there was, actually. It might not have been licensed, actually, I couldn't say—Mr. Buono had something to do with savings or something like that, but Uncle Nick was actually a licensed, a private bank, you know, like First City. From 1912 to 1926.
Dan: But he was a very, very astute businessman. Must have been—you figure coming here in 1887, coming to Broome County in 1897, and going back to Italy in 1926 is only about 30 years and he's made, he's made his fortune.
Frances: He owned some property like my dad did, and buildings like that and investments, whatever they were. Like I say, he always said when he was 52 he was going to retire, and he did—actually, he was 50.
Dan: He was 50 years old when he retired.
Frances: And he lived to be what, about 82.
Dan: No Social Security in those days, either.
Frances: No, they did it all on their own. If they had anything, they worked hard for it and they saved for it.
Dan: Yeah they must have, working at $7.00 a week—a day, rather, $7.00 a day.
Frances: That was high pay, because I can remember my mother saying that she worked for $7.00 a week and my dad was getting $7.00 a day.
Dan: $7.00 a day, so you figure that times five, that was pretty good money. Because EJ, I mean, they were $4.00. $3.50 or $4.00 a day or something like that.
Frances: In those days.
Dan: Well, that was back in the early part, well, you know in about 1935, something like that, ‘36, they were getting about $35.00 a week—that would be about $7.00 a day.
Frances: Mother said that she worked in a cigar factory for $7.00 a week.
Dan: Your mother did.
Frances: When she came from Pennsylvania.
Dan: Oh yeah, what factory did she work in?
Frances: It was down there near the old EJ factory there in Johnson City. Wasn't there one in Binghamton—a cigar factory?
Dan: This was at one time the cigar factory of the world.
Frances: Yeah, almost everybody worked there—she said they came up from Pennsylvania. They took the train down to Lestershire, they used to call it.
Dan: Yeah, that was the forerunner of Johnson City.
Frances: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a lot of little details, like right now I could say—your mind is gone. We had one session before you started this and I went blank, really.
Dan: Now, this paper that Barbara has here goes into detail.
Frances: More in detail about my uncle.
Dan: Your uncle, how he was knighted, etc. If I could take or borrow that, Barbara, and have it Xeroxed and return it to you and that would be sort of a memorabilia that would go along with this transcription—?
Frances: Actually, my uncle was the head of the Italian community at that time. I mean like everybody has one person and he sort of was the overseer of a lot of Italian doings, like the Church—the beginning of St. Mary’s Church—my uncle was involved.
Dan: Was he one of the founders of the Church?
Frances: In fact, there was a lot to it that we don't go into details—the facts are, he was a trustee for a long, long time but he, ah, I think he had a lot to do with, actually, of the building of St. Mary’s Church and money raising, fundraising at that time, and being a man like you say, position, he had a lot of influence and social work like fundraising during World War I. See, Dan, I have this thing. This is, my mother had it all these years, ah, it was in the Binghamton Press. I kept it—I like to put it in a frame so it don't—
Dan: Oh, it’s your uncle. You might get that laminated, Frances.
Frances: I don't know the date that’s on it—19—what is it?
Dan: 1923.
Frances: He was knighted in ’22. Socially and politically, he was a very well-known man and I think he did great service.
Dan: But your dad, you know, worked on the Courthouse.
Frances: I know he worked on the Press Building, not sure of the Courthouse.
Dan: But your uncle—
Frances: Our uncle worked on the Courthouse.
Dan: You don't know where, I mean.
Frances: He was a foreman—he had men under him.
Dan: He had men under him when it was built.
Frances: Whether he actually worked on it, I don't know—whether that thing says anything. No, he was a foreman, now, whether he did actual, as he was engaged as a stonecutter on that building until its completion.
Dan: Well then he did—probably a working foreman.
Frances: Yeah, that’s probably what they had, more like, today you’re a foreman you don't do the—but I also remember my uncle saying that he worked on a house on Riverside Drive—supposedly over a doorway, and you know, to this day, I think I know the house but I never ventured up to look and see what kind of work is on that front door.
Dan: You know there is a house on Riverside Drive that’s made out of stone, completely out of stone, and that was the Pratt mansion.
Frances: Is it the lower part of Riverside Drive towards the bridge?
Dan: Right, right, right. It’s on the right hand side as you're going toward Johnson City and it’s on the right.
Frances: That might be it. He said he worked on, over the doorway of one of those houses and I never took the time.
Dan: That’s the only one there to my recollection, the only one there that’s all stone.
Frances: Does it have a porch on the right hand side?
Dan: On the right hand side I think there is a porch and there’s a breezeway on kind of, you know, on the left hand side.
Frances: I'll bet my dad—that seems to be the one, but he never showed me, he told me, so I can't really say that’s the one.
Dan: That’s your dad?
Frances: No, that’s my uncle.
Dan: Your uncle, your uncle did more of the stonemasonry than your dad did, didn't he?
Frances: No, I wouldn't say that. My dad was more of a tradesman.
Dan: I thought he was more in the grocery business.
Frances: No, no, my dad was more so, as I say, just working on that particular building, on the Kilmer, on the Press Building, was really the big thing because that took a number of years, 1904 to 1910—before 1904. Like he told me four months over the archway. No, I think my uncle was more of a businessman, rather, that was a trade and most of these, my father and his two brothers—that was a way of life in the area that they came from—it was something the whole people in that community, that they were all stonecutters—they were some of the best in southern Italy.
Dan: Now this is the homestead of your dad? Original homestead?
Frances: Well, we've been here for fifty-some years. You mean on Court Street? No, we used to live on Fayette Street.
Dan: Oh, did you?
Frances: Sure, when I went to St. Mary’s School, where did I go?
Dan: I don't remember.
Frances: Don't you remember the box of macaroni I used to have to bring to the main altar? Mother and Dad used to reside on Henry Street. The greatest part of our life was on Fayette Street and here. We've been here since 1928. So I would say that a good length of time. But Dad went into the grocery business, I guess, I mean his own grocery business, when he married Mother in 1915.
Dan: 1915.
Frances: And he built, saved his money and built that building in 1916 when we went into 9 Fayette Street, and that’s when really his business started to, you know, he went into big scale.
Dan: In wholesale he probably sold to a lot of stores around.
Frances: He sold Arlington, and he supplied a lot of restaurants around here with Italians and the Arlington. You see, Dad also had his own name brand—the Gallo Brand Macaroni, the Gallo Brand Olive Oil, tomatoes. So they used to come in big trucks and deliver macaroni like they do now and Dad used to go, like the Arlington Hotel—he used to be the salesman and my mother would take care of the store. Community Coffee Shop used to buy from him—remember that?
Dan: Sure.
Frances: But way back even, like I say, I don't know whether the Mohican, but oh, yes, I remember delivering, ah, one of my boyfriends at that time, we delivered some macaroni to the Mohican. They bought my dad's name brand, Gallo brand.
Dan: So what did he have, a jobber that processed this stuff for him?
Frances: He had his own seal on it—the rooster, which, that was the symbol. “Gallo” means a rooster.
Dan: I see.
Frances: So the sticker on it would show the rooster, a Gallo name brand, but Dad had his own wholesale. He was a good salesman and then, as I say, he always felt, he said he never wanted to work for anyone—he wanted to be an independent person and that’s what he did. After, you know, after years of wholesaling, of course his health didn't permit him to go on—he had that miner's lung, but that was his trade in Europe. They must have thought that Binghamton was the place for opportunity, because they remained here and all their ancestors came here.
Dan: Well, that’s fine.
Frances: I don't know how much we helped you on this.
Dan: Well, you helped a lot and as you say—
Frances: Well, I think my dad, more than my uncle, my dad's life was limited, I mean he was a businessman—he dealt in real estate. Dad had quite a bit of real estate.
Dan: Yeah, but the fact that he did have the wholesale part of the grocery trade and sold the different places which we are all familiar with.
Frances: Oh, they knew, my dad had, I have people in Endicott today, many with grocery stores, and they said, “Oh, I remember your dad, we used to buy from him,” because he had all the imports, see, like Italian cheese and that smelly dried-up—remember? You don't remember, I went to school smelling like crazy—but you know, that dried cod fish, you know, things like that, it was all import stuff and you couldn't get it anyplace else except from my father in those days. Now, maybe there was a man on Susquehanna Street. Milasi, now that was another businessman, really, but what they contributed, I don't know.
Dan: Yeah, but he came after your dad, ah, long after—your dad was probably the pioneer.
Frances: I guess they were, there were a few of them—you know, Danny, another thing, my Uncle Jerry Lombardi—when you think about it, he was even before my father, but God bless his soul, he's dead now but you know Susquehanna Street where they used to have the dog pound? They used to have a hotel there and they had a grocery store way back in those times. Mary must be seventy now, isn't she, and my uncle had this hotel, like a hotel and a grocery store and all that back in those days. Well, you could combine things—in those days you could do that, you know. But there were quite a few Italian people who contributed, you know, in the early days. I think my uncle was the one as an old-timer, and then there were a lot in the time of my father, you know, who contributed, and I said the only thing that my dad can stand out in my mind was, he was a good businessman but that’s all I can say.
Dan: That’s good, I appreciate you taking the time out and coming all the way from Endicott. I hope the weather is good going back.
Frances: Danny.
",,,,"33:42 Minutes ; 00:24 Seconds",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Frances Kuryla",,,,1978-01-13,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Kuryla, Frances -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Italians -- United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Stone-cutters; Grocery trade",2017-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc3295090155aa1b275bedae19ef9804.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e22bd52083df3c54fedf0dee6dfedc86.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/92a0c9a08358f83dec1286f0d7caccea.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8c7ef585c765bb4164c1e90b31500750.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4c1576217d0f46559699c0928b47bcef.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a304c67700080f176ab4c2569fd6c108.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ae6972fb2d485b0f4e0dc9d43a97a3d5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/614c92e6a1c6c2760623060a9bfa072c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/465fd0d88b1222b369dfefbf59acc5c4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5ec57e06f4c838220c5dbe12c35a0885.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ef7b7099388f948d5d55088bae0bd4e6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/eb96f287402a5e5e90edca5a6d7a73ab.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3f23ff2e52a64ddac5173c38ab3e377a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7cb0ca89f49d4691ac7ff2f06d813d99.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0c8848de3376827a12c5948050203bf2.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5bf812daa036adaec7594d4ea4c8ba5b.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 1149,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1149,,,,,,,,,,2017-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"17:09 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Gladys Gitchell ",,"Gitchell, Gladys ; Dobandi, Susan","Gladys Gitchell speaks of growing up in South Dakota before marrying her husband and moving, with him, to New York. She discusses her husband's job caring for the fire hydrants in the city of Binghamton and her work improving the schools on the east side of the city. She worked as a clerk at several stores in Binghamton and is now active in her senior citizen organization. She also discusses her children and their current occupations.",,"Gitchell, Gladys -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); South Dakota; Department stores",,,,1978-01-13,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,"Recording 75",,"Dobandi, Susan ","Gitchell, Gladys",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Gladys Gitchell
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 13 January 1978
Susan: Mrs. Gitchell, could you tell us something about your early beginnings—where you came from, what your parents did, and things like that?
Gladys: Well, I was born in Alpoint, South Dakota. My father's name was James Campbell, my mother’s name was Villie. I, ah—he ran, my father ran a department store in a little village and, ah, his—my brothers and sisters and I helped in the store. It was just a country department store. One side was a dry goods store, one side was a bakery, and one side was a grocery store. From there we worked and went to school, which only took us through the seventh grade as we had to be sent to the city to go to high school.
At that time I met my husband, Arthur Gitchell, and we were married when I was nineteen. We moved to a ranch outside of Reah Heights, which was a small town, and we raised cattle, horses, hogs and sheep and chickens. We separated the milk and sold the cream and fed the skimmed milk to the calves and pigs. He milked twenty-seven cows.
When in 1921, we decided to come east to New York State to visit my husband’s people that lived on a farm in Apalachin. While we were there we visited his uncle in Binghamton, who was Hollis M. Gitchell, Water Superintendent. He talked my husband into taking a job with the city and staying in Binghamton as not only as having a better job, but also having better schooling for our children. So, we sent word back to South Dakota and had our properties disposed of and stayed on.
At that time my husband worked in the Water Department and did an east side route for the city water by carrying sand and salt and a shovel and walking the route and digging out the fire hydrants and, whenever finding a frozen one, fill it with salt and making them safe for the fireman. At that time he was making $4.35 a day. Which—we lived on Washington Street at that time, we lived on Washington Street in City property between Hawley and Stuart, and I kept roomers, and in 1927 we decided to buy us a home, which we did, at 43 Andrews Ave.
I became interested in the school—parent-teacher work, and did what I could with the other ladies to get new schools and improve our school system on the east side. In ‘21 when—was when the new East Jr. was built—no, that’s wrong, ’27, the new East Jr. was built, and in 1938 the new North High School was built. We called it the North High school because it was the north—the people on the northside wanted the school built in their district. So, we built it and called it North High, which starts the north side of E. Fredricks Street. It was a big piece of swampland and made a—by filling it all in, it made a—a nice football field and recreation field for both of the Central High School and the north side.
At that time I worked, clerked in the different stores in Binghamton. I started in at Fowler’s in the late forties. As the condition of the bus system changed, I found it more convenient to leave Fowler’s and come to the east side and work in a 10¢ store. It was on the corner of Robinson and Moeller Street, where I worked for thirteen years. I try now to keep very active in the senior citizen work, where I volunteer my time—the Greenman Center, where—which is located where the Pine Street school was torn down.
Susan: Tell us how many children you had.
Gladys: I had eight children—four boys and four girls. They all became active in some business. My daughter has worked—my oldest daughter has worked for the Universal Instrument, which has business in a great many different places—Chicago, Canada, and different—and she has worked for thirty-five years as a cost accountant. One boy works for the Board of Education, one boy works for TV, colored TV repair, and my son James, who lives in Maryland, works for the Metro—Metro 77, which he has worked for them for the past year.
Susan: You want to bring out that it's a new concept in transportation.
Gladys: —which is a new concept in transportation. It expands—the Metro system will carry millions of riders to offices, schools, stores and recreation centers on both sides of the Potomac River. The automatic fare collection begins with the open of—the Blue Line, with the Blue Line you won't have to carry any extra change. All you need to do—need to do is insert a coin in a fare box—
Susan: —fare box—
Gladys: —a vending machine in the station itself, and into—you insert it into the slot and it pops right back at you in a half a second, and on you walk onto the Metro train.
",,,,"17:09 minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Gladys Gitchell",,,,1978-01-13,,,"Gitchell, Gladys -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); South Dakota; Department stores","2017-03-27 ",,"audio/mp3 ","English ","Binghamton University Libraries ","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.","Sound ",,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/67ca71aa8b26b00f1ba56884bd6a019f.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 522,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/522,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"31:34 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Anna Kern and Marguerite Jennings ",,"Kern, Anna; Jennings, Marguerite ; Dobandi, Susan",,"audio/mp3 ","Kern, Anna -- Interviews; Jennings, Marguerite -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.); World War, 1914-1918; Teachers -- Interviews ","Anna Kern and Marguerite Jennings talk about their upbringings and how technology has changed since their childhoods. Anna Kern discusses attending kindergarten training school in Syracuse, NY and teaching in several Johnson City schools during her years as a teacher. She met Ms. Jennings upon her arrival to Johnson City. She also discusses the expanding limits of Johnson City and how it affected the school districts, the demographics of families living in the area, and establishment of the PTA, as well as her involvement with local groups in supporting the war effort during WWI. The two describe the changing curriculum and how their friendship has grown since meeting. They also name some students they taught who grew to have notable professions. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-01-19,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 38 ",,"Dobandi, Susan","Kern, Anna; Jennings, Marguerite",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Miss Anna Kern and Miss Marguerite Jennings
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 19 January 1978
Susan: This is Susan Dobandi, interviewer, and I'm talking with two retired school teachers, Miss Anna Kern and Miss Marguerite Jennings, who live at 386 Main St., Johnson City, NY. The date is January 19, 1978. Miss Kern, could you tell us a little something about where you were born, what your parents did, about your early beginnings and things like that?
Anna: Well I was born in 1893 in Herkimer, it was a village fifteen miles east of Utica in the Mohawk Valley and as—as I grew up—uh um—I don’t know what to say uh—my father was a doctor and in those days of course there were no automobiles. We had to go by carriage in the summertime and sleigh in the wintertime and the sleigh was an open vehicle and temperatures used to get much lower and we used to have much more snow than they do now, even this storm would have been a simple storm at home in those days because as we'd sit in the window and look out we couldn’t see people walking by on the street because the snow had been piled up so high from shoveling and we could see the ears of a horse going by but you couldn't see the cutter and of course they went on top of the snow and at one time Father had to go up into the country. It was ah about 18 below zero. He always—and he wore what they call a Russian vest, which was a padded vest but this one night because it was so cold Mother put newspapers under the Russian vest and a then put on his coat and his overcoat and he had a little charcoal stove in the foot of the—a little charcoal heater under his feet and of course just an open cutter and he had to have his hands be—he had a big heavy fur robe and he had his heavy fur gloves but he had 8 miles to drive that night.
And one time, this was several years later, when his driver was ill for the winter and Mother had to go with him in the morning and then my job was to come home after school to go with him when he made the rest of his calls after his afternoon office hours—and this one—in Saturday morning I always had to help him and that morning I frosted my left hand so that I've always had trouble—it would get cold and turn white ever since then and I guess that's enough about our winters.
I grew up in a normal school and we had outdoor—we were very much interested in all outdoor activities, skating, coasting. As we grew older there was a—one of the boys had a bobsled that held ten people and we would go after school. There was one particular hill, it was a mile long. We just couldn't start at the top because we would get going so fast that we couldn't make the curves and a couple of times we spilled but we could only go once after school. But we would go out after supper and we had to have a chaperone with us and one of the teachers in school, she was a peach and she didn't know how to teach very well but she was such a good sport. She went with us every evening and one time the bob overturned and her face scraped along on the ice but she came to school the next day with burns on the side of her face, her face all scratched but the next time we asked her to go, she was ready, she went with us just the same.
I graduated from high school in 1910 and I wanted to go to kindergarten training school which was in town. My sister had gone to Pratt Institute in Brooklyn and a—Father said yes, I could go there if I would go somewhere else afterwards and of course—courses were all two years. In the normal schools, any of the schools were only two years and I promised, thinking that he'd forget it, but he didn't, so after I had been in two years they arranged for me to go to school in Syracuse. Ah—there were very few ah kindergarten, purely kindergarten training, as far as I know there were only two—one in Boston and one in New York. In the normal schools they taught kindergarten along with the grade schools and but—this a school where I wanted to go, they had a kindergarten course, so I spent my two years there in Herkimer and a—Syracuse at that time was training their own kindergarten teachers and the principal of the school was a friend of Mother’s so that they thought that that would be a good place for me to go. Father didn't forget that I was to go away somewhere so they arranged for me to go to Syracuse and I was there—a—from the first of September to the middle of October and I was asked if I would take a class. Well, I was home at the time for my brother’s wedding and of course he told me there and Father said no, I had to continue my schooling. So, when I went back to Syracuse the principal talked for a half an hour just steadily telling me I was wasting my own time and my father’s money so I called him on the phone and he said, well, he'd leave it up to me. I could take it, so, that’s how I happened to come to Lestershire. I was—a—that was Columbus Day and the principal—well the principal came up to school to interview me first and that was Professor Smith, he was the principal—the Superintendent of the school and I came down here the 12th on the train from a Syracuse—from Utica, and Marguerite, who was teaching here two years ahead of me, had come down on the Syracuse train. Well Professor Smith told me at the time that he had made arrangements for me to sleep that night at a boarding house and then I could look for a room the next day. So my train got in five minutes ahead of Marguerite's. Professor Smith met me and we came down on the trolley car and stopped. He took me down to the house on the next corner and a I—when Marguerite came in, the landlady told her I was going to sleep with her that night but she didn't think much of that arrangement, so we weren't very good friends for a while, but uh the next day I did go and look for a room and stayed there two years and before I went to another room, of course this was Lestershire, that I came to.
Susan: How much did you say you paid for your room at the time?
Anna: I, my salary was $425 per year but I didn't earn quite that much because I didn't come until the middle of October and that was deleted from the salary and they had increments of $25 a year. The second year that I was here I gained my $25, but Marguerite was given an extra $25 because she was only a $25 ahead of me and she should have been $50 ahead of me in salary and a—
I remember when we first came to Lestershire the pavement went from just down to the E-J shoe store and a out here in front between street, Charles Street, Baldwin Street all along through there it was just a mud hole and the road was very narrow through this section right here. They had to fill in before they could pave it. It was a hollow.
I started in what they call the old Hudson Street School. Later it was named the Franklin Smith School, named after the Superintendent, and I stayed there until ‘25 and then in ‘25 I went over to the Harry L. School on the north side of town and I taught there, well I taught altogether 41 years and—ah—talk about salaries, at the end of 41 years I got $4,600 and now the starting salary is about $8,000 so you get that difference in just these few years since I retired. I retired in 1954 and I did some substituted in kindergarten and also in the grades in all of the schools at one time or another and—Is there anything in particular that you want me to talk about?
Susan: Well, why don't you mention the ethnic background of the children that you first taught?
Anna: Oh yes, well when I went to the Harry L. School, that was not in the Johnson City limits. When that school was built it was in the Town of Union, but the people—E-J was just beginning to build, ah, opening up streets up the hill, back of the school, and well, to go back 2 years there was a need for a kindergarten and a first grade over in that section so a little building was rented. I think it was a little chapel of some kind. They rented that for the week and had a kindergarten and a first grade there for the two years while they were building the school. It was an eight room school at the beginning and two years later they put on a twelve room addition and then of course still later I don't remember just, let’s see, it must have been in 1952 or ‘53 they put on this last big addition and that’s the way that section grew. I don't remember just when they went into the ah Johnson City—when the limits of Johnson City were extended. When I first went there, there were no sidewalks or anything you had to plow through the snow and through the mud and ah well—
Susan: The point—
Anna: There were in the school—we had a ah—there were Russians, Polish, Czechoslovakian, ah, no Italian happened to move in at that time, I don't know whether or not they did later on, but at that time it was mostly the Slavic, Czech people and very, very nice families, very nice people, anxious to get along and so interested in their children. And I remember one time, of course we didn't have PTA meetings at the beginnings, it was organized after I had been teaching quite a few years, but there was a PTA established soon after the school was built, the Harry L. School was built, and Miss Clark announced at one time they were beginning to have trouble in the Binghamton schools with the children, and she made the remark one time that the schools in Johnson City, there was the least trouble in that school because the parents disciplined their children and there were other children—sometimes the children were brought in in the middle of the year right from the boat, a couldn't speak English and sit down in a chair and—a—the majority of them were ready to go into the first grade along with the rest of the children. They learned English very quickly, learned the customs very quickly, and I had the least trouble with discipline with those children that had come from the old country. Very seldom did we—did I have any trouble in kindergarten. I don't know about any of the other grades but a they were lovely children, lovely families. I used to like to go to visit, we had to make calls on—all of the homes of all of the children. We had in class every year and of course I had two classes so that meant quite a bit of walking and—a—climbing the hills. I used to love to go at Easter and Christmas time because I always had such delicious kolaches and different cookies to be treated.
And—a—some of course—some of the homes the mother couldn't speak English. The children hesitated about—a—what is the word I want?—interpreting, I couldn't think of the word—they were hesitant about it. They didn't seem to want to show that they could speak the foreign language. They wanted to show they could speak English.
Susan: Now it's an advantage these days, the more languages that you know. Now it’s an advantage.
Anna: Oh yes, of course it is and I know at school we try to impress upon the children that it would be very, very valuable for them to keep up with their original language and I think that some of the older children have found that out but I—the smaller children I was dealing with, they didn't want to speak their native language. Well uh um—Any more questions?
Susan: Well,you might want to mention some of the things you did during the War.
Anna: Oh yes, of course, I was here at the time of the First World War and we started knitting before the United States went into the War. We were helping sending things over to Britain—a—knitting scarves and sweaters and things of that sort and then a so Mrs. Harry L. Johnson a started a, and Miss Jeanette Johnson also worked in it later, started what they call the gauze class and they made dressings to be used in the War, this was after we had gotten in the War, and that met once a week over in the third floor of the fire station and they had a very, very big class, lots of people from the factories and married people at home. They were women, the Red Cross had charge of it but Mrs.—the Johnsons were the ones that started the class and then a—one thing during the War, the Johnsons wanted to have their people that were here have some activity, so they used to have noted—a—dance bands and orchestras come, they had different entertainers, singers, and I remember there was one man who played the accordion beautifully. We didn't know anything about him at the time, but he turned out to be a quite a noted artist. I can't remember his name and a—
Susan: Do you remember some of the things he did?
Anna: I know they had a dance once a week up there in this hall.
Susan: You’re talking about the pavilion, the George F. Pavilion?
Anna: No, no, the fire station, the third floor of the fire station. No, the pavilion wasn't built, that wasn't built for a long time afterwards, and I can't remember the year that they changed the name to Johnson City but I know there was a big parade and all the people in Johnson City—a—besides working in the gauze class and the knitting—a—we met the trains as the—a—
Susan: —the troops came through.
Anna: —a—the trains that carry the soldiers, I can't think, that’s what they call it. As they came through they would stop here in Binghamton and we would take candy, cigarettes and things of that sort to them and the boys going through and then they'd leave off letters for us to mail and—a—we worked on the bond drive. They had several bonds, a E bonds that people
worked on several bond drives with big parades and the Endicott Johnson people turned out very well. IBM workers in IBM also paraded and the time that the War ended there was a big parade and a great, great celebration, that was the first World War. We didn't do too much in the Second World War then, didn't seem to be the need of it. But uh—
Susan: I think that you wanted to bring out good manners.
Anna: Oh.
Susan: About the children.
Anna: About the children, well, that was one thing in kindergarten, if I could teach the children to get them to realize—a to share was one of the things, and to respect the rights of the other children, they could do what they pleased as long as it didn't interfere with the other children doing what they wanted to do, and if I could get that across I felt that I had been successful with the children, and of course there were many things that we did have to teach, words and sounds a a help quite a lot for the first grade. In fact I had to do more than Marguerite had to do for her 1st grade. The teachers asked us to teach the vowels learning these different words.
Marguerite: We had to teach vowels.
Anna: Yes, vowels. The sound of vowels.
Marguerite: The sound of vowels. Right and a we had to put in a new reading system.
Anna: Oh yeah of course when kindergarten first started—a—each child they were all doing the same things together and it wasn't for several years that we began letting—a—the children choose what they would like to do. That came several years later. Very formal at the beginning, what they call the Froebelian Method. I don't think that anybody now days would even know who Froebel was, but he was a German educator and the one who originated the kindergarten idea, and that was the training we received, the Froebelian method, when we were going to school. Marguerite received the same thing. And I think discipline of the children is so much harder now than it was then. Once in a while there would be a child that needed a little extra help but most of them—as I look back I had very little trouble with discipline in the class. Of course a few weeks if some child got too obstreperous, why trying different ways to get him to settle down, and the child and the children learned there were certain things they could do, certain things they could not do. We didn't have too much trouble like that. But uh—can you think of anything else?
Susan: Well, how about you, Miss Jennings?
Marguerite: I can't add anything that she has added.
Anna: You could start with where you were born.
Marguerite: Oh I don't feel like it, Ann.
Susan: Well, I think it would be interesting for these people to know how long you two have been together.
Anna: Oh well, uh—this was back in 1913 uh—as I said I slept with her the first night and we didn't think too much of it at that time but we became friends and the second year she got a room in the same house where I was and then the third year we moved down on Main Street across from St. James Church, and we lived there for 30 years and before we came here to this apartment, we came here.
Susan: And now if you ladies wouldn't mind giving your ages?
Anna: No, Marguerite is 88 and I'm going to be 85 in a couple of weeks.
Susan: You're two remarkable ladies, I can tell you.
Anna: Marguerite was born in Homer. I was just a little bit—
Marguerite: I was born in Cortland and later moved to Homer.
Anna: Her father, I just don't know what his title would be, he does beautiful, beautiful iron filigree work.
Marguerite: He was a blacksmith but he didn't—
Susan: An artistic blacksmith.
Marguerite: Yes ah he just worked on very expensive wagons, and if you ever drive through Homer, right near the end of the walk, you come from the Congregational Church, you look up and you'll see a iron and that is a showing of the oh wagon—western wagon.
Anna: That's all iron filigree.
Marguerite: And he cut every bit of that out. He was excellent in cutting out iron.
Anna: He did beautiful work.
Marguerite: If you go through you want to look up at it. It's a big, big picture iron.
Anna: She went to Cortland Normal for a few years and then came directly here. We both started teaching.
Marguerite: We both took classes.
Anna: And oh yes all through—all through our teaching.
Susan: You updated your education.
Marguerite: Yeah. We read the magazines, which were not cheap then either. We had very, very large classes. Now one class I had at Roosevelt, I think it was 45 in one class and 35 in the other class, and you had the two classes in one day.
Anna: And one time before I went over to the Harry L. School, I had 34 children in one class and 43 in the other and we didn't have enough equipment for the 43 to be in one class, so they divided it. I had to have three classes for a, a short time but finally they did get a teacher to come in and help me.After that she took a grade.
Susan: Didn't you say something about being a shortage of books for the children too?
Anna: Well yes. In the other kindergartens the books were—a—furnished for kindergarten, and we both had subscribed to a educational magazines, and then afterwards a list of the new books and a description of them, and so when I—the list was made out once a year and we put in asking for certain books for the library in Harry L. They thought the kindergarten shouldn't have sole possession of these new books, they should be in the library so that they could be shared.
Marguerite: They didn't look them up, Ann. They didn't find out what to get.
Anna: When I'd go to get the books, especially the seasonal ones I—some first grade teacher would have them and I wouldn't be able to get them, so after that I didn't order any books. I bought all the books myself that I wanted to, best as I can.
Marguerite: We had two different principals. I think mine cooperated a lot more. Yes, yeah her name was Jennie Frail, she was an outstanding principal, of course Miss Clark was very good too.
Anna: Yes, we both had very, very understanding principals, very understanding principals. A ha—we enjoyed working under them both and a—
Susan: And having retired here, you have lived to see your pupils grow up and have children of their own?
Anna: Yes. Even now as late as this I meet people on the street. I did just the other day—a, “Did you teach school?” and I said, “Yes.”
“A were you in Harry L?”
“Yes.”
“Well then you were my teacher.” And I had the doctor’s assistant that I went to last Tuesday was one that I had, Novesky, and a by the way I can say that I had the lady that is interviewing me, I had her in kindergarten. (chuckle)
Susan: I was going to close with that, Miss Kern, that you were my teacher too. (chuckle—ha ha ha)
Marguerite: Dr. Harold Maddi the osteopath, of course he's dead now. He was in the first class that I had here. Uh ha—
Anna: Speaking of people I had, George Krutz is now Chief of Police in Johnson City. I had John Cenesky, who is a lawyer here in Johnson City, and many others, then I had Edward Sabol who became a President of a university and many others, but I just can't recall their names right now.
Marguerite: And I had Bob Fisher and his brother and then the Connerton boy, well he's a practicing lawyer now in Binghamton.
Susan: They are all prominent businessmen.
Anna: I had Robert Eckelberger, he is a lawyer—a local lawyer.
Marguerite: And then I had quite a few that became outstanding teachers.
Anna: And as pupils I had some of the future Johnson City teachers who themselves are now retired (ha ha). It's been a long time. Anything else?
Susan: Do you have anything more that you'd like to say to whoever may be playing this tape a hundred years from now?
Marguerite: Well tell them we enjoyed every minute of it—teaching.
Anna: We had very fine Superintendents to work under.
Marguerite: A ha. The Board of Education.
Anna: A fine Board of Education, ah they did everything they could for us except give us big salaries. (ha ha)
Marguerite: $25 a year increments. And uh yeah—
Susan: Well thank you very much, ladies. I certainly have enjoyed talking with you and it certainly has been nice seeing you again, Miss Kern.
Anna: It's been nice talking with you.
Susan: Thank you.
",,,,"31:34 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Anna Kern and Marguerite Jennings",,,,1978-01-19,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Kern, Anna -- Interviews; Jennings, Marguerite -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.); World War, 1914-1918; Teachers -- Interviews",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b59fd317b1322067c5f2bfd495b4db55.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/36ef35e664391c8ea765e156c054dacf.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bba40e927ab479cc40108cb55a1255ff.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/32d86189f5ba565aeb8d595128e3f607.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/155528f1e3d53858848dafe66cc710de.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0a3344f4a9247089e05bff15d9e3abbd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3fd208365babd699135140df73798dfe.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/38473b60cfe01a6bad31e29e02fbb210.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3f0a0036cefb6c18534c73fc647c54c6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/de1277c0795fc02ce00a4d59cc6457f1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ecf0f3a118fe5e1c2262f618a4480100.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b014d25f1e82e52c26a8ab0fba811ad8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b3cabbeb9a3d6dd7c7c5c1df5493b96f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a75da945ce10e962adf3bcd91fa16c40.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f22785769b9e8e1d7e6184e4684d09da.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 511,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/511,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"34:15 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Barbara Gallo ",,"Gallo, Barbara ; O'Neil, Dan",,audio/mp3,"Gallo, Barbara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Italians -- United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Stone-cutters; Grocery trade; St. Mary of the Assumption; Harvey Hinman; John Mangan; Chancellor of the New York State Board of Regents; Press Building; Broome County Courthouse","Barbara Gallo discusses her father's and uncle's emigration from Italy, their moves from New York City to Scranton, PA and their work as stonecutters on the Press Building and the Broome County Courthouse. Her uncle established a private bank primarily for other Italian immigrants and a steamship agency to aid immigrating Italians. She details her uncle's return to Italy and his later re-immigration to Binghamton, NY where he became politically involved with Harvey Hinman and John Mangan, Chancellor of the New York State [Board of Regents]. He worked with Italian immigrants assisting them with voting, and was instrumental in establishing St. Mary's of the Assumption. He later retired and returned to Italy. Gallo's father established a wholesale grocery store and later took over the steamship agency.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-01-24,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 27",,"O'Neil, Dan","Gallo, Barbara",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Barbara Gallo
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 24 January 1978
Dan: OK, Barbara, will you relate to me the life and working experiences of your father and uncle from the time of their immigration to the retirement in the community?
Barbara: My uncle Nick Gallo came over here in 1889 at the age of 19 years and he landed in New York and stayed there for a few months and then went to Scranton, PA, where he went into the, ah, stone cutting business with Mr. Frank Carlucci, who did a lot of work like that, and ah, one of the buildings that they, ah, were contracted to build was the new, the Courthouse, which now stands, ah, since the old one was burned own and Uncle Nick was the foreman on the job and, ah, I'm not certain whether he did much of the cutting there, but ah, later on, ah, then, ah, my dad, who was also had the trade as a stonecutter, ah, worked on the Press Building. On the doorway, and also, ah, did the work on the lions’ heads that are way up almost to the top of the building there, and his pay at that in those days was around $7 a day, which was quite high, and Uncle Nick, ah, after, gave up the work of stonecutting and married, ah, my Aunt Gussie Arrigoni, who owned a small store in the Moon Block, which was across from the Arlington Hotel. Then in 1914 he started this bank which was chartered by the State of New York—it was more of a savings bank than a commercial bank, which we now know. Ah, it was primarily for Italian immigrants—they had, ah, great trust in my uncle and would ask him to hold their money for them, and so with this he formed this bank, and then I guess he had the bank for about 12 or 14 years, and in 1926 he retired to Italy and gave up most of his assets that he had here, with the idea of staying, remaining in Italy. Then he did return to, ah, the United States, into Binghamton—he was involved politically with, ah, Harvey Hinman and John Mangan, Chancellor of the State of New York at the time, and he did much in the way of getting people to, the Italian citizens here to get out and vote so they would exercise their American citizenship, and he was, ah, a member of the Elks Club at the time and also ah Knighted by the King of Italy in, after, ah, World War I for his, whatever help that he contributed at the time towards—what would you say?—a better world, anyway, and then, ah, in 1930 or something he retired again.
Dan: Did he do anything when he came back after—
Barbara: No, he remarried. He was retired—it was only, you know, politically, ah, involved.
Dan: Politically involved—in other words, in 1930 he just, ah, severed all relations entirely.
Barbara: With the business.
Dan: OK.
Barbara: But he did have, also, at the time that he had the bank, he did have a wholesale grocery and, ah, this steamship agency, which, when he did retire, turned the steamship agency over to my dad, Michael. Ah, Michael came here in the later 1800s, around 1896 or so, and he worked, as I say, on the Press building there, but then—
Dan: When did—he came directly from Italy to Binghamton?
Barbara: No, he went to Scranton also.
Dan: Oh, he went to Scranton and worked for the same contractor your uncle did?
Barbara: Umhm.
Dan: Then the reason he came to Binghamton was the Press building job?
Barbara: Right, right, but because of the—he had to give that up because of, ah, physical, ah, ailments that he acquired through, I guess, ah, the dust from the stone there, I suppose.
Dan: Right.
Barhara: He then gave that up and, ah, returned to Italy for a matter of just probably a couple of years or so, and he came back here in 19, ah, 1915, I believe it was. He married my mother, Rose Arrigoni, and they together had this wholesale grocery, and after a few years he was able to, ah, put aside some money and built the building there on Fayette Street, and they moved their grocery store over to that building there and that’s where it remained for about 40-some years, and together with that he had this steamship agency and the money exchange, which was a great help to the Italian community at that time. Mother, although she was American born, was very fluent in the Italian language and, ah, was often used as an interpreter for a lot of these Italian people—especially like going to the doctor or for legal purposes. Many times she would go to the, ah, where they would get their citizenship and, ah, help them in that way and explaining things to them, and she was quite active in church too. Which, going back to my Uncle Nick, was instrumental in getting the Italian, ah, Church of St. Mary’s of the Assumption here, ’cause there was a need for it at the time, see, and this community was increasing and therefore they, ah, worked with some other Italian people and was able to get the church started here.
Dan: Now you mentioned, ah, Barbara, that your Uncle Nick married your Aunt Gussie—
Barbara: Arrigoni—there were two sisters married to two brothers.
Dan: That’s what I was going to ask you—two sisters married two brothers, and was Gussie a native of the United States, or was she born—
Barbara: She was, she was the only, ah, the only child that was born over there—all the rest of the Arrigonis.
Dan: Oh, she was born over there.
Barbara: Yes, but she came here like two years old or—
Dan: Oh, I see. They got married here, though?
Barbara: Yes, yes, they were married here.
Dan: And Rose was your, ah, was your mother—ah, she had her own store, her own business, is that right?
Barbara: No, no, my Aunt Gussie.
Dan: Oh, Gussie, Gussie had it.
Barbara: Gussie had a candy store—they made candies and things. That’s where I guess they used to see each other.
Dan: But she gave that up when—ah, did she retain that when your uncle had the bank?
Barbara: No, no.
Dan: She gave that up?
Barbara: Then they had a child.
Dan: I see.
Barbara: She was, you might say, more or less retired in that business there.
Dan: I see. So your dad, primarily, outside of the job he did on the Press building, did most of his—most of his time in the wholesale, in the retail—
Barbara: Eventually went into the retail business because he used to go around as a wholesaler, he used to supply, ah, some of the restaurants and even places out of town with Italian food.
Dan: Uh huh.
Barbara: Like macaroni, which were all imported, and he did have his own brand on the merchandise—tomatoes, macaroni, and oil—called Gallo brand, which represented the—the label was a rooster, which meant Gallo.
Dan: I see.
Barbara: And he used to have that for quite a few years.
Dan: And your dad retired at what age, Barbara? Or what year, do you know?
Barbara: He retired about the age of 82.
Dan: About 82.
Barbara: About 82, because he was sick for about 8 years. He was 90 when he died.
Dan: And how old was your uncle when he died, remember?
Barbara: My uncle was 83 and he died around 1954 in Italy—he retired, he was there when he died.
Dan: Oh, he went back to Italy then. Oh, then he died over there.
Barbara: Ah, in, after WWII, 1942 or 1943, when the war ended, his daughter, who had resided there in Naples, Italy, came back here and, ’cause they were on in years and, ah, ah, she was wanted her parents to be with her, and it was so logical for them to go there, so they gave up their home here and retired there, and the only—my aunt died the same year, I think.
Dan: Oh, is that right?
Barbara: Over there, and my uncle died the following year.
Dan: Oh so your Aunt Gussie is, ah, and your uncle are buried over in Italy. OK, now you say your dad worked on the, your uncle worked on the Courthouse as a foreman, and of course I guess they, prior to that they had a fire at the Courthouse.
Barbara: I believe it was sort of a wooden structure in the early times.
Dan: Something like that—I saw a picture of it in the Susquehanna this past week or so, and ah, I suppose it had to be restored.
Barbara: Like the columns and all are, see, are all stone, and they needed to be shaped. Things, I don't believe, in those days, were brought in already made.
Dan: No—true, true.
Barbara: ’Cause, ah, like I say, my dad always talked about the work on the Courthouse. ’Course he did other work, you know, in other places. This was one of his pride and joy, I guess, and ah, like grapes around the archway, and then up above are the lions’ heads, which are rather large and he had to do it up there from a solid piece of granite.
Dan: Yeah.
Barbara: And, ah, it was all done on scaffolding, which they had to put up.
Dan: So it’s all by hand.
Barbara: All by hand and chisel.
Dan: Gee.
Barbara: It was their trade from Italy and their reason for coming here was just, ah—
Dan: How long did it take him to complete that archway on the Press building?
Barbara: It took him about four months to complete that archway on the Press building.
Dan: You don't know how long, as far as the lions’ heads—it probably took longer to do that.
Barbara: Oh, it was longer than that, because like you say, they, ah, just, they were, if you could see them, their fangs or whatever they had are real long, like the length of an arm.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, uh huh. Did he work on any other Kilmer property at all?
Barbara: I don't recall—-ah, this was just, you know, what they would tell us from time to time.
Dan: Uh huh. And your dad took over the steamship agency and the money exchange from your uncle after he retired, and the bank was just closed.
Barbara: The bank had to be dissolved.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, OK. Now the, in the building of St. Mary’s Church of the Assumption—ah, that, of course, was a National church, and your uncle was instrumental in getting that started.
Barbara: In getting that started.
Dan: As a fundraiser, or—
Barbara: As a fundraiser and in other ways, you know.
Dan: This is going back before your time, Barbara—you don't know who built the church, do you?
Barbara: You mean, you mean, ah, the architect?
Dan: Yeah.
Barbara: No, I don't off hand.
Dan: Yeah, Father Pelligrini was the first Pastor.
Barhara: The first Pastor, and remained so until 1951, I believe. He was the one and only man and the Italian community used to, ah, hear Mass with him as Pastor down in the basement of St. Mary’s on Court Street until our church was finished—completed—but there was, way back, we used to have what they call the August 15th celebration, which for St. Mary’s, which was a fundraising thing. It was known throughout the Southern Tier.
Dan: You mean the Bazaar?
Barbara: Well, it wasn’t really so much a bazaar as it is now.
Dan: It was the Feast of the Assumption.
Barbara: It was a feast, but it was called a Field Day.
Dan: Oh.
Barbara: And it was done out and they used to have people from all over come, and fireworks and things, but it was primarily a fundraising to help complete the cost of the building.
Dan: Is there any occupation in particular that the, ah, Italians indulged in more than anything else? Did they have a particular trade that they brought over with them? I mean, in other words—
Barbara: You mean the Italians.
Dan: The Italian community, in other words.
Barbara: Most of them were contracting.
Dan: Contractors.
Barbara: Must have been the majority of them were contractors—that was what they knew best.
Dan: Yeah, it seemed to be that barbering was quite a popular trade too in Italy, because a lot of the barbers that I know and acquainted with have all been Italians.
Barbara: There were probably a lot of cities like, you know, they learned that trade, of course there’s a lot of roadways in Italy and they were good at it.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Barbara: As a matter of fact, like, ah, Dad’s uncle and his dad were, ah, worked on the Amulfi Drive in Italy, which is famous now.
Dan: Where is that? Is that in Salerno?
Barbara: It runs along the, along the coast of Italy. Sorrento all the way down, I don't know exactly where it starts—it’s below Naples somewheres it starts.
Dan: I see.
Barbara: And it’s all along the mountainside.
Dan: I see, and you say it's famous, you say, for what particular reason?
Barbara: Because of the way it’s built.
Dan: Oh, I see.
Barbara: It’s sheer mountainside and there isn't much room for cars to go through, especially the present day cars. If there are two cars coming, one will have to back down.
Dan: In other words, it was built for a horse and buggy.
Barbara: Probably, but it overlooks the ocean—you can see that.
Dan: Now you spoke of an uncle—ah, how many brothers were there in the family?
Barbara: Now I'm not certain of it, I thought there, ah, I thought they said there was ten brothers.
Dan: Ten—large family—and were they all stonecutters?
Barbara: Now are you referring to my dad's family itself, or just uncles? They started, but the uncles, his uncles.
Dan: Oh, it started with his uncle, I see.
Barbara: And his father.
Dan: How many, how many worked on the roadway of the family, including not just brothers but also relatives of your uncle?
Barbara: That I don't know.
Dan: Yeah.
Barbara: That goes back quite a way.
Dan: But you say there was ten in your uncle’s family or your dad’s family.
Barbara: My dad's father had quite a few brothers.
Dan: Oh, I see, I see.
Barbara: But my dad's family, there was three brothers and five sisters, and they all came, all but one, one brother, immigrated to the United States.
Dan: Is that right?
Barbara: And one to South America.
Dan: Were they all stone masons, stonecutters? Did they all take up that same trade?
Barbara: That was a trade there.
Dan: Yeah, yeah. OK, well is there anything else that you can add, Barbara, looking over your notes, you might have overlooked?
Barbara: This is all, like I say, just what we can remember from their talking about it at times.
Dan: Now the bank was located where, ah?
Barbara: Ah, at 168 Henry Street.
Dan: 168 Henry, and ah, your dad's grocery store was on Fayette Street, right?
Barbara: At two different locations. The final one was where he remained for forty-some years.
Dan: In other words, the one that is standing now at 9 Fayette Street.
Barbara: I think for the, ah, they did quite well, considering, you know, ah, you might say the handicap at first, you know—the language—but my Uncle Nick, ah, spoke English well. They were both educated, I mean, they had as far as high school in Italy.
Dan: When your uncle was Knighted, that gave him a title?
Barbara: Gave him a title of Cavalier, which at that time was quite something to have.
Dan: Yeah, did you tell me what year that was he was Knighted, Barbara? I don't know whether I have that down here or not.
Barbara: It was after World War, World War One.
Dan: WWI.
Barbara : Umhm.
Dan: So it was after 1918, 1919, yeah.
Barbara: They had quite a banquet there for him—some of the civic leaders there, which was nice, but Uncle Nick was a great help to the, ah, as I say, the Italian community.
Dan: Well that’s good, I mean when the immigrants came over, you know, and especially, you know, don't know the language, why it’s nice to have somebody they can fall back on.
Barbara: Dad, during the Depression, was a great help to people, because they were in need and many, many times he, ah, would let them, you know, run up bills because they just didn't have the funds.
Dan: Sure.
Barbara: And people were very good—they trusted him and then they appreciated it, and ah, I have even people now that come, sometimes I meet them and they'll, you know, have a great fondness for my dad. Like I say, he helped them when they needed help, which is a sort of joy for me to hear that, you know, he is still remembered in that way.
Dan: Right, right.
Barbara: I think that was when he was 90, but I don’t know what else.
Dan: OK, Barbara, well I certainly appreciate your taking your time out to be interviewed. Would you like me to run it back for you?
",,,,"34:15 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Barbara Gallo",,,,1978-01-24,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Gallo, Barbara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Italians -- United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Stone-cutters; Grocery trade; St. Mary of the Assumption; Harvey Hinman; John Mangan; Chancellor of the New York State Board of Regents; Press Building; Broome County Courthouse",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/109bfb3de92523ca6ae5baab7c3836e7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8a1de99eef1b471ebc87663f550a8343.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/742da581e8471ed614fb00cd7993e3ee.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d8e4a0e89ca8adc464eca92610abd017.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f8055cda7a1bd4914dda820788c3b60d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/af852adb620bf37423056cdc24e88113.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/23b5717c97b2e032912dc9d688b466a6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3cbdbd3869a1bc023e2749c498fbf150.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/760669a4ca41a41a4daa5d35429bfd24.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cac32826831106ac86821cfcdb2f96d6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/87ed9fdce623c4a63ee05dcd361a6d5f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cf046d8614425cdedfc4caedea4295e0.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 538,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/538,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"32:48 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Mary Shaughnessy ",,"Shaughnessy, Mary ; O'Neil, Dan",,"audio/mp3 ","Shaughnessy, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cigar industry; Endicott-Johnson Corporation -- Employees; Nurses -- Interviews; Tuberculosis; Hull Grummond; St. Mary's Church; Irish; Wilson Memorial Hospital","Mary Shaughnessy talks about her birth and upbringing on Henry St. in Binghamton, NY, in an Irish settlementan Irish settlement area. She speaks of working at the Hull Grummond cigar factory and later working for the Endicott Johnson shoe factory. She recounts completing the nursing program at Wilson Memorial Hospital to become a registered nurse, as well as her training there. She then discusses working occasionally as a private duty nurse, and what a typical day was like in nursing, compared to the present day. She recalls her experiences with her religion and church as well.",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-01-24,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 54 ",,"O'Neil, Dan ","Shaughnessy, Mary",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mary Shaughnessy
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 24 January 1978
[Note: Telephone rings in middle of interview, and Mrs Shaughnessys' sister, Mrs. Winifred Walsh of same address, enters room and is included in conversation and hereafter referred to in this transcription as Winnie.]
Dan: Ah Mary will you relate to me your life and working experiences in the community starting with the early days on Henry Street?
Mary: Yes.
Dan: OK.
Mary: Is it on?
Dan: Yes, you go right ahead.
Mary: Oh I was born at 208 Henry Street. It was an Irish settlement and ah most almost all girls that were around my age went into the cigar factory around there and ah we made we would get a $5.00 gold piece for our pay—we made around $5.00 a week and it was usually given in a gold piece and ah of course we walked to work and we walked back because there weren’t any cars then.
Dan: What cigar factory was it?
Mary: It was Hull Grummond.
Dan: Hull Grummond.
Mary: Corner of Water and Henry.
Dan: And you say you were paid $5.00 a week in a gold piece?
Mary: Around that amount—a little change maybe we had besides that.
Dan: Yeah, what was your job in the—
Mary: Rolling, setting the wrapper around the cigar.
Dan: OK.
Mary: By hand—no machines.
Dan: And this was you're paid so much a week or were you—
Mary: No, they counted how many cigars we done.
Dan: In other words it was piecework.
Mary: Yeah, piecework, that’s right.
Dan: OK so in other words this $5.00 a week in a gold piece they gave you that and whatever change over and above that, that you made in the piecework.
Mary: If I remember it, that was the way it was.
Dan: Uh huh, how were the conditions there, the working conditions?
Mary: Well they were good. We had ah they were nice people to work for. Some of them were from originally from Binghamton and some came with the company from out of town.
Dan: And you say you were how old when you started to work there, Mary?
Mary: Ah about 14.
Dan: 14—OK.
Mary: Well I worked just a little while at on Wall Street—they had a factory there but then we went to Hull Grummond later.
Dan: Was this one on Water Street also Hull Grummond?
Mary: No that wasn't.
Dan: Another factory.
Mary: That was another factory. They were mostly from out of town—the bosses were.
Dan: And you worked there for how long—just a year—Hull Grummond?
Mary: Probably 2 years.
Dan: 2 years OK and you were a roller.
Mary: Yes.
Dan: And ah you ah you don't know how the tobacco industry started up here do you?
Mary: How it was started?
Dan: Yeah.
Mary: No I wouldn’t know that. Just that we were glad that there was a place come to town that we could work. The only other work there would be was working in a home and you lived in with the people but ah I never I had gone in and helped sometimes in a great while but someone who needed help.
Dan: OK—now after you left Hull Grummond, where did you go Mary?
Mary: I went to Endicott Johnson shoe factory with the CFJ building—Charles F. Johnson building.
Dan: And what did you do there?
Mary: Heeling er ah putting ah heel lining in the shoe by hand.
Dan: Uh huh—OK—now how long did you work there?
Mary: Ah well probably I think about a year and a half or so.
Dan: A year and a half OK and from there what did you do?
Mary: Well I was home for a while—my husband was ill—he had tuberculosis.
Dan: Now you say you were 14 when you went to work in the cigar factory and you worked there 2 years—that would make you 16 right?
Mary: Yeah.
Dan: And then a year and a half at EJ?
Mary: Yeah.
Dan: That would make you 17 ½.
Mary: How long—I was 24 when I got married.
Dan: Oh you were 24 when you got married.
Mary: Yeah
Dan: I see.
Mary: We went together of course.
Dan: Oh but you said you had to leave EJ because your husband was ill.
Mary: Yeah and he worked there too.
Dan: He worked there too.
Mary: Uh huh.
Dan: So you must have worked at EJ more than a year and a half though, Mary.
Mary: Yeah I think around that Haha.
Dan: Yeah because if you got married when you were 24—
Mary: Yeah almost 25, I think.
Dan: Almost 25, yeah OK—so you left there when your husband got ill.
Mary: Ah I left EJ and went in the mountains to be near my husband and took a job at the hospital and just helped out there.
Dan: What, what mountains were they?
Mary: Well, in the line of nursing but not, not too much so because I wasn't trained but I did help out and he said that he hoped I could be a nurse and of course I always remembered it.
[Phone rings]
Dan: Will Winnie get that?
Mary: Yeah.
Dan: Go ahead Mary.
[Phone rings again]
Mary: Winnie.
Winnie: I’ll get it.
[Phone rings again]
Dan: Now, you were there how long in the mountains—how long was he sick?
Mary: Oh he ah let’s see he was sick about he was first he went to Chenango Bridge he was 18 months up there in the TB Hospital and then he went to ah—well he worked for EJ, so we went to an EJ place they had in the mountains—not way up in the mountains—at the foothills of the Adirondacks and I went up there and worked until he died. I came home the day that he died that evening. I came home the next morning.
Dan: Then you weren’t married too long, Mary.
Mary: Oh no and we didn't live together too much because he was in the hospital a lot.
Dan: Yeah, so how old were you when he died.
Mary: Ah, let’s see oh around 30.
Dan: Around 30. Then what did you do Mary?
Mary: I went back to school and studied and went back to school. I went to East Jr. and took some subjects there that gave me credit and ah everybody was very nice and ah and ah let’s see I went to Buffalo for a short time.
Dan: Why don’t we turn this off? [Recorder]
Mary: Yeah.
Dan: Now Mary you said you went to East Junior.
Mary: Yeah.
Dan: Finish school?
Mary: What?
Dan: Finish school?
Mary: Well I went ah I had—Winnie, Winnie, don't talk.
[Winnie enters room]
Dan: That’s all right, that’s all right, that’s OK. That’s all right—now that’s all right.
Winnie: Did you want me?
Dan: Oh sure, sure.
Mary: You’re registered on here [Tape Recorder].
Dan: That’s all right, that’s OK. That’s all right—it makes it more interesting.
Mary: I ah remember.
Dan: East Junior is only ah East Junior High School is only about a year—that you went there.
Mary: Oh I studied subjects from Central but I didn’t go there, I studied them privately and took the examination.
Dan: What examination was this?
Mary: Well ah History I think was one. I went to night school for a while I can't tell you how long and ah.
Dan: Now is this in preparation for your becoming a nurse Mary?
Mary: Well I suppose yes.
Winnie: Had to get the credits.
Mary: I wanted to get credits.
Dan: Yeah, how far had you gone to school when you went toward—at when you first went to work?
Mary: When I went in training?
Dan: No, no, when you first went to work, you know at 14, when you first went to work at 14.
Mary: Yeah.
Dan: How far had you progressed in school at that time?
Mary: Oh to the 7th.
Dan: 7th grade?
Mary: Because you had to go to another building to the 8th grade see—down on Washington Street where the police used to be, remember?
Dan: Police, police station?
Mary: Police station on Washington.
Winnie: It used to be Washington Street school.
Dan: Oh Washington Street school, yeah, yeah, a little before my time (Chuckle). Yeah so OK, so then by going to night school, East Junior and Central, you got more credits.
Mary: Well you only had to have a year then but it changed considerably.
Dan: A year, a year outside of high school.
Mary: Ah a year of high school. Well you could get your ah credits for whatever way you got them, if you passed and received them from Albany you know you had a year’s credits.
Dan: In other words your training, th schooling—
Mary: Then I trained for two and a half years.
Dan: Oh you trained in a hospital.
Mary: In Wilson Memorial.
Dan: For two and a half years.
Mary: And graduated there.
Dan: And graduated in their nursing class, I see. In what year was that Mary?
Mary: 1931
Dan: 1931 Ok and what did you do?
Mary: Private duty for a while between Lourdes and City Hospital and Wilson wherever a patient might ask for a nurse and ah we put our names down and they'd call us if they wanted us. Mostly at Wilson and ah then I went from there to Psychiatries on No.
Winnie: You went to Windus’ first.
Mary: I went to Windus’ I went took care of a private patient and ah I was with him 8 years. With him and his wife of course.
Dan: What was his name?
Mary: I lived right in with them.
Dan: What was the name Mary?
Mary: Windus.
Dan: Windus.
Mary. Very well known around here.
Dan: How do you spell that?
Mary: W-I-N-D-U-S.
Dan: W-I-N-D-U-S. Windus, OK what address was that do you remember, Mary?
Mary: Well they owned a home on Chenango Street.
Dan: Chenango Street.
Winnie : On Helen Street.
Mary: Win, not them, no.
Winnie: Allen Street.
Mary: Allen Street in Johnson City.
Dan: Allen Street in Johnson City and you were with them 8 years and then you went to where—to psychiatric.
Mary: Yes, I think so—well I went to medical upstairs.
Winnie: She had trouble with her hands—couldn’t use the back rub. She got eczema on her hands.
Dan: So where was this medical upstairs—where?
Winnie: On Clinton Street.
Dan: Oh the annex you're talking about. The Wilson Memorial Hospital.
Mary: Yeah, I worked over there.
Dan: That, that psychiatric—oh I see.
Mary: Yeah.
Dan: And how long did you work there, Mary?
Mary: Oh I can't remember—I retired from there.
Winnie: ‘61 I think.
Mary: Must have been.
Dan: ‘61, so you were over there quite a few years—must have been over there about over 20 years then.
Mary: No it wasn't that long.
Dan: It wasn’t that long.
Winnie: Probably about 8 or 10 I think don't you? 8 or 10.
Mary: I worked in two different, I worked on medical over there. They had medical and psychiatric. I worked on medical for quite a while and ah we used to they used to send patients up on the Hill you know up to he State Hospital and I used to take them up in the ambulance then.
Dan: Could you give me an idea of the typical day in nursing back when you first started Mary so we could compare it to the present day methods?
Mary: You mean of how—
Dan: Nursing, you know like the medical profession has progressed quite a bit since the early days since when you know you graduated.
Mary: Yeah.
Dan: I was wondering if you could give me a capsulized—
Mary: I remember with the paperwork today.
Dan: Pardon?
Mary: There’s an awful lot of paperwork today.
Dan: A lot of paperwork today.
Mary: Oh yes on account of this—
Winnie: Insurance.
Mary: You know Social Security and everything - it’s a lot different.
Dan: Now outside of the paperwork, how did it differ?
Mary: Well not too much.
Winnie: Well when the patients left you had to do the beds.
Mary: Of course some of the nurses that I worked with had worked at Wilson when they had to go downstairs and take care of the fire at night—that long ago see if the furnace was going.
Dan: Oh was that right?
Mary: Which that doesn't happen today.
Dan: And that was what kind of heat—was it coal?
Mary: Oh I imagine so, yes it was coal.
Dan: Didn't they have a superintendent to take care of that?
Mary: Well maybe it was the night he was off—I don't know.
Winnie: It was just a house then.
Mary: I wasn't there then—that was before my time.
Dan: Before your time.
Mary: That was in the old wooden building which is gone now.
Dan: Yeah, but more of your time was taken up as far as patient, nurse to patient relationship.
Mary: Yes, much more time with the patient than there is I think today.
Dan: Today they have nurses’ aides and etc. to do the—
Mary: No they didn't and you had to do a lot of ah keep the utility rooms cleaned and all that, that you, a lot of things that have changed today.
Dan: Now how many were in your family Mary—how many brothers and sisters?
Mary: Oh there was 6 children in all—one was born dead.
Dan: One was stillborn.
Mary: Ah there’s 5.
Dan: 5 children—you said you had to go to work at 14, did your father and mother the ah did your father die at an early age?
Mary: No he was 84.
Dan: He was 84.
Mary: 83.
Winnie: He was sick a lot.
Dan: He was sick a lot so that would account for your having to go to work at an early age.
Winnie: Yeah, but you went to Pine Street School, grade school before you went.
Mary: It was Pine Street Grade School where Pine Haven is or Pine Haven.
Dan: That’s where you started in school?
Mary: Oh yes, I started in there.
Dan: And went to the 7th grade, is that right?
Mary: I left in the 7th grade. I don't think I quite finished it—I don't remember too well. I think that ah it was the 7th—that’s all they had there.
Dan: Anything about the neighborhood life or your family life at that time ah Mary that ah would be of interest?
Winnie: Well was mostly Irish on Henry Street then.
Dan: Mostly Irish Winnie.
Mary: Beautiful flowers and ah yards. They kept their yards up very nice—lovely.
Dan: About what year was this ah Mary?
Mary: About what year?
Dan: Yeah.
Mary: Oh dear.
Winnie: 14 take 14 from her age 14.
Mary: I think so.
Dan: 14 from what?
Winnie: 86.
Dan: 14 from 86 would be 72 yeah so your dad died when he was 84—
Mary: 83.
Dan: 83 uh huh and did your Mother live after or did she predecease him?
Winnie: She died in ‘25.
Dan: She died in 1925.
Mary: By that time the rest of the children went to work and my sister was very good to my mother and she went to EJ and she was there when they gave the big bonus and she saved that money and they built a home on Oliver Street later.
Dan: Now going back to Hull Grummond, you say you worked there about a year and a half, is that right?
Mary: I think about that.
Winnie: I don't remember.
Mary: No—she was awful young then.
Dan: You were employed as a roller on a piecework basis. Ah Mary, do you know of anybody else that’s living today that worked in the cigar factory?
Winnie: Fannie, Fannie the German woman.
Mary: Who?
Winnie: Fannie.
Mary: Oh yeah. That’s a girl over in the hospital now—she isn't a girl anymore but she's a German—she came from Germany and ah I don't know her last name now—when she married of course, she has a grown husband.
Winnie: Is it Winkler?
Mary: Huh?
Winnie: Is it Wlinkler?
Mary: I don't think it’s Winkler—I'm not sure but anyway she was ah about my age and she ah is still living and ah oh—
Winnie: Mabel is still living.
Mary: Mabel, yeah, Mabel Fry lives in Ohio, Cincinnati, Ohio. I have been to see her different times. She's ah she was my age and she worked in Barnes and Smith, which was another cigar factory by local people.
Dan: Yeah, but you don't know why they went out of business, do you Mary?
Winnie: I think cigarettes were, don't you?
Dan: Cigarettes—well I heard that the Union—they tried to unionize it.
Mary: Well yes I think that did have something to do with it.
Dan: Why did you go from Hull Grummond to EJ Mary—was it an increase in salary or something?
Winnie: Yes there was more money from the cigar factory to the shoe factory.
Mary: Huh?
Winnie: From the cigar factory to the shoe factory there was more money.
Mary: Oh yes, yes that’s right.
Dan: In other words what prompted you to change jobs?
Mary: Yes, yes.
Dan: Yeah OK and you met your husband when you were there.
Mary: Oh I, he was in our neighborhood—I knew him when I was in the lower grades in school.
Dan: He worked in EJ too?
Mary: Yes he did.
Dan: OK, then you were only married a year and a half when he got sick.
Winnie: He was sick 5 years.
Mary: He was sick 5 years about that I think.
Winnie: He died at 33.
Dan: Anything else Mary that you can think of that would be of interest at all? You mentioned in your class at Wilson ah there were some Griffin girls, the Griffin girls. Who were some of your classmates at Wilson?
Mary: Ah.
Dan: That took training—went into training with you.
Mary: Oh there was quite a few then.
Winnie: They were also were younger.
Mary: They were a lot younger than me you know.
Dan: Yeah.
Mary: Yeah ah Tom McAvoy’s wife she was she sat next to me in class and ah then she took up anesthesia and she was an anesthetist when she married.
Winnie: Dr. Occhino’s wife was in your class.
Dan: What year was this class here—1930?
Mary: 1931.
Dan: 1931 and how old were you when you graduated from this class, Mary?
Mary: About 36 wasn’t I or 37?
Winnie: I think you were about that.
Mary: I went in and I didn't quite have credits enough and I had to go back and get more credits. That’s when I took some subjects at Central High School—I can’t think of that teacher’s name.
Dan: But you only needed to qualify to go into training a year of high school?
Mary: That’s right.
Dan: Is that right? You had a year of high school and then you went right in the hospital for 2 ½ years in training—right.
Mary: Tender, loving care.
Dan: Tender, loving care and then you were awarded your certificate or whatever your license to register—a Registered Nurse, right?
Mary: Yeah.
Dan: Anything, any one of your patients very famous at all in the community that you nursed?
Winnie: Well there were some ministers.
Mary: Huh?
Winnie: Didn’t you take care of some ministers?
Mary: Ah who?
Winnie: Any of the ministers in Johnson City.
Mary: Oh yeah, Mr. ah Noah.
Winnie: You were working on the floor then.
Mary: Noah I know him very well only he worked in the—he was in and out of the hospital a lot—he was a friend of mine is all. Mr. ah an Episcopal minister.
Winnie: You took care of Leonard Steed’s wife’s mother.
Mary: You know Edith Steed?
Dan: I’ve heard of her.
Winnie: The boys that are doctors.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, Actually the one that stands out would be this Windus.
Mary: Yes, Mr. Windus.
Dan: Mr. Windus who lived on Allen Street in Johnson City.
Winnie: Do you tell him he was President of the Bank, Mary?
Mary: He was Vice-Pres—when his brother died, I think he was President.
Dan: Mr. Windus was—he was Vice Pres.
Mary: They started the bank down there.
Winnie: Workers’ Trust—Vice-Pres.
Dan: Vice-Pres of Workers’ Trust.
Mary: They started the bank down there, they started down in Hallstead and had a bank up there Hallstead or Great Bend and they were from around ah I went through their town one time—can’t think of the name of it.
Winnie: Well you know the Behan house on Riverside Drive?
Mary: He owned that but he didn’t want to live in it.
Dan: He’d rather be in Johnson City.
Mary: He owned that beautiful, that beautiful home in Hillcrest. That’s where we were.
Winnie: Romy Haskell’s home, the big white home up there.
Dan: Huh.
Mary: That’s where she was sick so long.
Dan: Yeah.
Mary: But I didn’t take care of her there. I didn’t take care of her at all, but she had nurses around the clock for 16 years.
Dan: Is that right and you went to St. Mary’s Church, Mary?
Mary: Well I don’t go there now.
Dan: No I know you don’t go there now but did at one time.
Mary: Yes.
Dan: On Henry Street but ah things have changed quite a bit now.
Winnie: Well when we lived on the East side we still stayed with St. Mary’s.
Dan: Still went to St. Mary’s, yeah, kind of get used to it you know.
Winnie: Yeah I know.
Mary: I ah could tell you something amusing about that. They called it Old St. Mary’s.
Dan: Is that right?
Mary: So I got up one night at a meeting and I said, “Well I don't like to say this but ah it is not Old St. Mary’s. I was baptized in Old St. Mary’s on Chenango Street—a skating rink that was made into a Church on Sunday—they brought the altar in and it was across from where St. Paul's is now and ah you walked up and carried the baby or the godmother did and the godfather and ah walked back. They thought nothing of walking and ah that’s where I was baptized and that was the first St. Mary’s Church.
Dan: That was right across from where St. Paul’s is now?
Mary: Across the road.
Dan: What was it—a wooden building?
Mary: They took it down long ago.
Winnie: I think it was a garage and they had a fire or something.
Mary: Yeah.
Dan: So in other words they carried the all the the altar appointments up there and ah had the Sunday Mass there before they built St. Mary’s?
Mary: These priests don't even know that I don't think because they were young men.
Dan: This was prior to—let’s see the cornerstone on St. Mary’s Chuch I think is around 1890 something ‘92—this would be prior to that wouldn't it?
Winnie: Just before that.
Dan: Just before that.
Winnie: You were born in ‘91.
Mary: Dick was one of the first babies baptized in St. Mary’s.
Winnie: John and you were baptized up there.
Mary: Father Hughes called him “Richard the Third.”
Dan: Father Who?
Mary: Father Hughes.
Dan: “Richard the Third.”
Mary: He called my brother “Richard the Third.”
Dan: Oh, Richard the Third.
Winnie: He was named after his uncle.
Dan: Was Father Hughes the first Pastor of St. Mary’s? I think he was.
Winnie: When I was here—
Mary: I think so, Father Drummond. There was a Father Drummond Pastor but I think he was after.
Dan: Who was the priest that used to take a and have Mass across from St. Paul’s before St. Mary’s was built?
Mary: I don't know that.
Dan: But you were baptized in that church.
Mary: I was baptized in that church.
Dan: And that church was across from St. Paul’s.
Mary: It was a church on Sunday and a skating rink all week.
Dan: Must have been quite wide open wasn't it?
Mary: Haha there’s a lot of changes.
Dan: A lot of changes I guess so.
Mary: Now they've got their second viaduct.
Dan: True, true. St. Mary’s has changed too.
Winnie: Oh I don't know anybody—about 2 or J people.
Dan: Well is there anything you would like to add Mary that you think would be of interest at all?
Mary: Dear, I'll probably remember them after you go.
Dan: Well if you do, call me up and I’ll be glad to come back.
Mary: Haha, all in all my memory is pretty good you know considering I'm 86.
Dan: 86.
Mary: But I’m very active although I fall.
Dan: Well that’s wonderful, it’s remarkable I mean years ago ah you know starting out at $5.00 a week you know was big money.
Mary: Yeah.
Dan: Big money—you know kids today they think, “Oh Gee it's nothing.” Well Mary I’ll play this back for you and if you should think of anything that you'd like to add, why we can just turn it on again—how will that be?
Mary: OK that’s good.
",,,,"32:48 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Mary Shaughnessy",,,,1978-01-24,,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Shaughnessy, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cigar industry; Endicott-Johnson Corporation -- Employees; Nurses -- Interviews; Tuberculosis; Hull Grummond; St. Mary's Church; Irish; Wilson Memorial Hospital","2016-03-27 ",,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/756555be9fe142ef8a5ab43065ad3508.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0746a3468ce67b5774bb8b87f6541d21.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/72594033294d867d24c4c0853222d9bf.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c81cf1826e96d7e1fdc7c95475d4b8c7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/60d2c353cec468f54bc7b56c66c7efbc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/97e7bcf084f183dcbc2e9e57adc4de05.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/98ffee02e01d03c8e730652815afa90a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8ef8c1a6664e49cd39e1e7a14edc61a0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7a540a9c936cd561a98ea59124b2076d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/18ce08ff1fcff4d4855d4bd93a303127.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/98d380622661a069ff578b1e914e5d1d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bb666097adf56f8ad6053e9bb1dfa56b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/64ef8d94ff43f377a771d5f57fb0738f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4e7538d95c9a5fc138c84068aa345af4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8c9d0563bd0ca39df980911e17802682.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/198ce39a5d42efcf90e852c5a345c58f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3e6e0725efb546a316d58c7bb7d0aad7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8a2f8118e8ef10c993f51ee5bdb97684.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 549,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/549,,,,,,,,,,2017-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"33:09 Minutes ; 12:25 Minutes ; 33:29 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Matthew Alston ",,"Alston, Matthew ; Wood, Wanda",,audio/mp3,"Alston, Matthew -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Musicians -- Interviews; Orchestra; Jazz; Photographers; Discrimination; Arlington Hotel; Bennett Hotel","Matthew Alston discusses his early interest in the violin and creating a small orchestra after returning home from World War I and then later a Dixie Jazz Band. He details how he became interested in photography, his first camera, which was a Colony, one of Ansco's first cameras and how it came into his possession. He discusses taking a correspondence course for photography. He speaks of taking photographs of Willis Kilmer's race horse, for the local newspaper, being hired by the government as a photographer, and taking photographs of buildings and landscapes in his free time. He talks about his photography equipment and film processing. He discusses his ancestors and family and the prejudice he suffered. He talks briefly about his work with handicapped children.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-01-30,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 65A ; Recording 65B ; Recording 65C ",,"Wood, Wanda","Alston, Matthew ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Matthew Alston
Interviewed by: Wanda Wood
Date of interview: 30 January 1978
Wanda: Date is the thirtieth of January. Don't know quite where to start here, but I would like to have you tell me something about what your life has been like.
Matthew: Yes. Well, in the beginning, the reason I tried so many things, and I worked at each one of those things to make a living—now—because at the time I was coming up, it was hard for a colored man, no matter how smart he was, to get into places, you know. And he had to be twice as smart as a white person to—ah—get a chance, you know. That's the only way he could get into some places. Well, now I figured that—ah—in school I would have to learn as much as I could, and if I had the same intelligence, you know, on the same level, as a white boy under the same conditions, I should be as good as him in learning something. And that's what I did, I—I learned to do pictures, I learned to paint houses, and I took interest in everything I did to do the best I could, you know. And then I—ah—there's a friend of mine that—who was in school, and he played a recital one day, on the violin. And he was about fourteen years old. Well, that got me for music. So I went home, I says to my Dad, I said, ""Gee, Clinton can play good."" I said, ""I wish't I could take violin lessons.""
“All right.” He bought me a violin. So then, ah—Professor—ah—from Owego there—what the heck was his name? Ah—Houck*—he, ah—he, ah—took—I took lessons from him. And I learned to play the violin, and then I, I after that developed into a, when I got older, into a—a leader of an orchestra I had. I went overseas and I came back after the First War and I had two boys I picked up over there that could play.
Wanda: Were you in the Army then?
Matthew: Oh yes. Oh yes, that was—in the First War. And so we—they wanted to stick together. They came from New York. So we formed an orchestra and—first five men and then ten. I played at the Arlington Hotel, the Bennett Hotel, and I played, ah—in Montrose every Thursday, for the college boys there. I played up in Ithaca and went all around like that and I grew up to ten men. And [laughs] that's what my violin lessons did for me. And then I wanted to take pictures. I found out something about pictures and—
Wanda: Tell me how you started in photography. Will you tell that story?
Matthew: Yeah. [chuckles.] Well, anyway, it's gonna be funny. I don't know whether I should let this out or not. I—uh—I never did see anybody take pictures, you know, and finish 'em before, and I thought it was quite a mystery about that. So I—ah—was working for some people. They had—ah—ah—ah, Barnum—it was Barnum's—they used to have a—a grocery store up on, ah, Chenango Street. And a little house, a little yellow house on the corner of Doubleday and Chenango was theirs, and then they'd go to Florida every winter—and they—and I was going to school too, up on Robinson Street at the time. They wanted me to—I mowed the lawn in the summer, so in the winter, when they went down there they wanted to keep the snow clean and keep the fire goin' so the place wouldn't freeze. And one day she wrote and told me to clean up the attic, and put things aside that I thought she might need and so they could be thrown out if she didn't. So I did and I came across a camera. First I came across a couple of boxes of negatives, and at that time they didn't have—ah—celluloid. They were glass negatives—glass plates, made outta glass, And there was no film around other than the glass. So a friend of mine, older than I was, he had been taking pictures and I took them up. And Brownie, he worked for the telephone company, you know. And I says, ah—""Ernie,” I says, “I found these up in the attic.""
And he says, ah, ""Oh yeah.""
And I says, ""Gee, this Mr. Barnum must know a lot of colored people in—in Florida.""
He says, ""Why?""
I said, ""There's a picture. There's two girls standing up and an old man, and they all have black faces. And the girls have long black braids, you know.""
And Brownie commenced to laugh. He says, ""Yep,"" he says, ""I'll make some tricks tonight."" He says, ""Come up to the house after supper."" And I went up and he had an old-fashioned—printing, you know, and developing. You didn't have to have, ah—all these darkroom lights and everything, and had that open-faced—ah—open flame gas, no mantle, just those you turn up and down, you know. And he says—he took me up in the bathroom and he had some emulsion he put in that dish and he had a little, a little lamp, one of those stinkin’ little old lamps they used to burn oil. And you'd smother inside of a small place with it, and every now and then they'd burn an’ smoke up the place, you know? And he come out and he'd hold the—put the negative in the frame, put a paper over it, and then he'd close it up and he come up and bring it to his chest, and he'd turn it to the light and count so many seconds, then put it back and then go around and develop it. And he was developing, you know, and he says, ""I want you to pay attention to this, Matt.""
And I looked and he says—ah—I says, ""What is it?""
He says, ""Now watch it change,"" he says, ""I'm a magician.”
And so it commenced to develop, y’know, and it commenced to come up, y’know, and it come up all white, so I says, ""Hey Brownie,"" I says, ""They're white!""
He says, ""Yeah,"" he says, ""that's a positive,” he says. ""Now—ah,"" he says, ""this is a negative."" Then he showed me the negative with black people on there like this, y’know.
So, I thought he tried to be nice to me. I thought he didn't want to say, “Negro,” or anything like that. He says, ""Negatives."" So I said, ""You don't have to be so nice, just tell me what they are, see?""
He says, ""They're negatives."" He says, ""So, so when you put a negative to a positive—papers—positive,” he says, ""and then you develop it,"" he says, ""it's just reversed. What's black is white 'n what's white is black.""
And I says—I studied that—I said, ""Well, I just have to take pictures."" So I started in doin' that and I learned a little of that—and then I wrote back and told them what I found. And I found a little Colony camera—that's, oh, it's worth a lot today. It's an old—one of the first Ansco cameras they made here.
Wanda: Colony?
Matthew: Yeah. C-O-L-O-N-Y, Colony. And, ah, it was made o’ wood and had a rubber bellows and it had a lens on there with a cap. You had to take the cap off and count and put it back. Quick—like that, y’know.
Wanda: For the exposure.
Matthew: Ayuh. Because the emulsion in those days was very slow—very slow acting—y’know, it wasn't fast and you'd just take it off, put it back on there like that. And, ah—then comes the—ah—flash light. Magnesium powder. And y’see, so you get out the first time with that and I take a little bit in a spoon and put an’ on the flash—a little spoon, little pan, y’know, and you hold it up with a handle, an’ there's a little wick, you hang down an’ light it an' wait a minute and it'd go BOOM and the explosion makes all o’ the—smoke up the room, y’know, and everybody used to jump outta their skins. And after you got through takin' ’em, y’know, you'd look at your pictures. If you had a group there'd be some with their eyes shut, some of them open, and some eyes starin' out—it was a mess. So you have to ca—take about a dozen pictures to get one good one. Because they were scared to death. And I says—I went to a dance one night, and these women had dolled the place all up. It was on the top o’ the old Herald building. You can put that down if you want to.
Wanda: Herald?
Matthew: In the old Herald building on the corner of State an’, an’, ah, Washington. I mean State an', and Henry. It's where the Army—no wait a minute, it isn't now. It used to be the post office? You know where the old post office—they call it old post office now. It's on the corner of—
Wanda: You mean the Armory—where the Armory was?
Matthew: No. No. This building is still up. It's that big building that they—that they have on—on the corner, you know, where Berger's is?
Wanda: Mmhmm.
Matthew: Just opposite Berger's. You know that big—
Wanda: —Oh yeah.
Matthew: —Army or United States Post Office. There was another one, it was about four stories high and—it was, they used to, ah, they had—they printed a paper down in there, y’know.
Wanda: The Republican Herald?
Matthew: Mmhmm. Right there, across, rather, on this side—where Berger's is. And right across there, where the Post Office is, there was another building almost like that. And they used to have dances in it. So this—these people, they had—they decorated—all the fancy stuff up in there, y’know—and drapes hangin' down. So I said to the boy that was gonna hold the flash, I says, ""Get it away from those paper things."" And I said, ""Don't hold it too high. Just about that high."" And he lit it. And it went phhht-BOOM and it hit one of those drapes and it went all over the—everything was burning on the ceiling at once, and the women were runnin’ out and they wanted to kill me. I said, ""Oh, I gotta get my camera an’ stuff."" Me an’ him, I was scared to go back. But I got some good pictures. And, ah, they said I was for damage and—I was in a heck of a fix, y’know. Well, that's the kind of pictures you took. So after that explosion comes from the flash, everything gets all foggy, and you had to let all the windows up an’ fan the smoke out—
Wanda: —the smoke!
Matthew: It'd take you ten or fifteen minutes before you could take another picture. Honest to God, that was something. And any time you held one up and says, ""Look at that beautiful negative!” and you had to drop it on the floor, and bang, your negative's gone, see?
Wanda: Of course.
Matthew: All cracked up. So I—that's how I got in it, and then I sent to, ah—the, ah—the New York, ah—let's see—it was a photographic—ah—school in New York City at that time where, ah, you know—ah—you—a correspondence course.
Wanda: Oh.
Matthew: And it's still in business, I think—the American Photography, that was it—way back there, and I took a course in that to improve myself. Then I went, I took papers, at one time I took some papers—oh, a fellow that was a—a photographer on the Morning Sun. But they might’ve sold—in that same building there now. He, ah—he had to go away for a vacation, and they left me, wanted to know if I could take pictures, ‘cause I had the best equipment in town, y’know, at that time. And I met Mr. Kilmer an’ his horses an’ things, and I took some pictures and had them in the paper and, ah—Oskewanna. I think they had one horse there by the name of Oskewanna. He was a favorite, y’know, and I took a lot o’ pictures of him, see, that I took down at the old—ah, fairgrounds in—ah—Endicott. You know, where that, they had a race track down there an’ ball games an’ everything. It was—oh, I don't know, years ago.
And now to show you how they were, y’know. The guards was up against there, y’know, where you had to go across the track. An' the only place, the good place to get to the track at the finish was right on that side, right next to the—ah—judge's stand, as they came through. So I tried to work out a way to get over there. When I was young I was an athlete—I could jump, y’know, like that—and I had this big camera, and I went up an’ said, ""Will you let me cross, please?""
""What are you doin' here?""
I says, ""Look, I gotta get in to take pictures."" I says, ""I got a courtesy card from the Morning Sun.""
He says, ""You aren't workin’ over here.""
So—all the other guys was goin' over, y’know—so I walked down that way and I jumped the fence and I run across the track, an’ the horses were comin' and they went, ""Matt, get outta there—go back!"" And you see, we had the cameras like this—a line of boys takin’ pictures, you know, and ah—three of us, tracks was here, so you would—ah—as soon as the horses'd come close to you, you'd take a picture an’ you'd swing back and let the guy behind you get a chance. I was the last one, see, back here, and the horses hadn't got up to the grandstand—I mean the judge's stand, y’know—so—huh—I swung over and I got—[laughs]. Well, they, they put that in the paper an' all that stuff, but—ah—so that's what prejudice did, y’know. It made me do things.
And then I started to paint houses. No—I—I—drove a truck for Jameson-Boyce and, ah—and I get off from that and I started—when I was on it—to paint houses, and then I—that's the chance I had for—for playin’ my music, y’know. For dances. We got dances everywhere around here. The old—it was—we used to call it the Dixie Jazz Band, if anybody will remember that—y’know, and we put all the other guys out o’ business and they, they wanted me to join, y’see. I don't know whether I should—do I sound prejudiced? Huh? In the speech?
Wanda: No. Because I can put myself in—
Matthew: Well, anyway, like I'm tellin’ you—when I learned, that's how I came to do so many things. And I thought I was just as good as the next guy—if I had the opportunity. And I had to make a livin' because when I grew—I didn't know I was gonna get this old, but I learned I need to make more than a dollar a day, y’know, so ah—they had a union here and when I come, I said to the, ah—Dimmick—he's the one, the head o’ the union—music, Musician's Union—I says, ""Look, I've got an orchestra,"" and I says, ""It's gonna be good,"" and I says, ""I want to be fair, everywhere,"" I says, ""so I'd like to join your union,"" y’know.
And he says, ""Well, I’ll look about it."" And it went on for two months. I'm still playing, you know. So one of the guys come to me, he says—one night—he says, ""Matt, I'm sorry, but,"" he says, ""you can't play around these places here unless you—”
Wanda: —What?!
Matthew: ""—join the union."" I says, “Don't tell me that."" We were makin' more money than they were. We were gettin' a—ah—two dollars for the first hour and a dollar and a half each hour afterwards, and that's all they were getting, see. And we'd get more because we had more time, and sometimes we'd make as much as fifteen dollars a man a night, see. That was good money, in those days. So—ah—I had three boys, the piano player and the drummer and a boy that played a—a mandolin, see.
Wanda: And it was jazz.
Matthew: Oh, it was all—all, we had a fifth guy. 'Cause I was in New York City for about three years before the War, and I went from there to War and then I was—that's how I got to playin' good, y’know, with bands. And not—cut out the high-tone music 'cause I couldn't make no music—ah—no money. And when—so I went overseas and when I came back, I brought back—ah—one white boy and two colored boys. They lived in New York and they were in the same camp, y’know? And they came back and so we formed the orchestra. And then Bill Jeter, here—he, he died not so long ago. He was, ah, he was our piano player. And—ah—Marshal Moore, he was a drummer, so anyway we went, we played up to Greene, y’know, every week, and this night they wasn't givin' to the music. And I said, ""Look, boys,"" I says, ""These people pay as much as anybody else, and I don't care if you're so tired you can't keep your eyes open. You gotta play just as good for them as you could anybody else.""
And ’e says, ""Well, you know, we don't have to—play. In fact, we shouldn't play with you."" They was all colored boys there, y’know. So one o’ the white boys down there that belonged to the union let ‘em in—one at a time, see—and told 'em not to say nothin' to me about it. And I says, ""Whaddya mean?""
He says ""We belong to the union and, ah, they just let us play tonight."" And I told them where to go. I—I was mean, y’know. I was tough, see, but I was tough as they. I told 'em just how fast they could get there without me helpin' 'em. And—ah—OK. Now here's where the trouble comes in. They played a month or so. And what you do—you've got an organization here, a union. Now you've got a band and he's got a band, and you call up and say, ""I need a trumpeter."" Well, one of the boys that's out of work gets the job. ""I need a drummer."" And so forth, y’know. Well, what happened, they was getting these—ah—drummers, y’know, and other guys from the white outfit, and the colored guys would be out o’ work, they wouldn't let you. So this one boy, one time, happened to be—ah—comin’ in, and he stood out in the hall waitin' a little while, y’know. And the doors was open, see—and, ah, let's see—and so one o’ the white boys says—whaddya call ‘em? He says, ""I don't—-why you wanna hire them niggers?"" he said. ""Don't forget,"" he says, ""There's more people in the orchestras. Them damn niggers, they're gettin’ all the jobs.""
So this boy gets mad. He told the rest of 'em. And I didn't know about it 'til later. So, I'm up on—I'm painting houses now, y’know, and I didn't work out of my trade, and so I'm up on the corner of—ah, Pearne and, ah—Chenango Street. Joseph's Brothers had a—had a—a store there.
Wanda: Oh yes.
Matthew: Remember?
Wanda: Yes.
Matthew: Well, I'm up there painting, y’know, and I look down on a hot summer day, and there was my orchestra down there, pushing those hot irons around with wooden shoes on and—and the sweat comin' off of 'em, and tar. That's the time—they used to have asphalt for roads and they didn't have the machinery. They'd do it by hand, y’know. So I looked down and I says, ""Ah—hah-hah-hah,"" I says, ""Look at the band down there."" I says, ""Whaddya doin'?"" I says, ""Boy, are you guys hot!"" You know. Oh jeez, they all run and hid. They didn't want to—look this sorta thing, so, so I went down an’ I said to one of 'em, I said, ""What happened?""
""Well, like you said, they'd put us outta business, and they have."" And then he told me. He says so, then they didn't have no work and they wanted me to come back, and I says, ""No."" I says, ""No.” I didn't want to have nothin’ to do with it. Ah, my—my grandfather, see, on my mother's side—was a Cherokee Indian, see. I've got three bloods in me. I've got a—I'm Indian and English and, and Negro. My father was a dark man, see. And when those—you know—touchy bits up there like that, you get mad. I don't know anybody anymore. Anybody'd ever do me—and it's easy—anybody that ever done me dirty—I could forget them. You know I—I don't make up. Some of them I never made up, see. And they know it, see, so I told him, I says, ""We got along fine an’ I told you that would happen, because,"" I said, ""I know the, ah—ah—the ideas that these men have around here. They just wanted to get you out, see?"" And I says, ah, ""Serves you right."" I said, ""We get along."" I said, ""I went through it like a man."" And I told 'im what was gonna happen and I says I have an idea, because we had the new jazz, everything that was comin' up from New York, y’know. This one boy had a clarinet and the other one played the piano, y’know, and they were hot stuff, and me—I was—doin' everything—[laughter]—you know, and we—we got all the jobs, y’know. I—I—had worked up to ten men then.
And here's a funny one. All o’ the pictures I took—everybody's in it but me. They say, ""Where were you, Matt?"" I took all the pictures, see. So this one girl that, ah—Bill Jeter died about a couple of months ago, and his daughter came from New York here, and she said she has quite a few pictures now that I took of the orchestra at that time, and she's going to send me a couple of 'em, see. Then I'll have my own, but I'm still not on them. [laughs.] So that's, that's one way that I had to learn everything. And I put an interest, now. If you see—you see that camera book there?
Wanda: Um hmm.
Matthew: Well, that's one I bought, oh, about four years ago. I take a book like that and I read it through. And nothin'. It's just like mud to me. You know—
Wanda: Yeah.
Matthew: I can't get it, read it through again. In the meantime I'm—I'm practicing with my camera.
Wanda: Um hmm.
Matthew: I put the book down about—maybe three weeks later, on Sunday or something, I pick it up and start to read—everything comes right out like that, you know, you can't—you can't learn things—in one day.
Wanda: Right.
Matthew: I can't. Well, when I get that done, then you ask me anything and I can tell you just what's on that camera, what it'll do. And then I go ahead an’—
Wanda: It's up here.
Matthew: Sure.
Wanda: Your computer is OK, isn't it?
Matthew: [laughter.] I think it is so far, but once in a while it changes, when it gets stuck there, y’know, and I go to think of something—it just don't function right away. After a while, if I wait long enough. Now like, like there's a young lady that I knew in New York City. This is way back in nineteen-hundred and, ah—well, just before the War I met her and—she was a very nice-looking colored girl, and her name was Catherine and I couldn't think of the other name. I just laid there—think—and think and think, this morning. I don't know what made me think of her, but anyway, I did, and ah—""Sullivan."" Because she had a name, you know—that was an Irish name. She was a colored girl. So, as I said that—I put it together. I said it's nothing that I could call a Johnson or Jackson—now that's a name of another race. And so I just like to do—and that, that was over—since nineteen and—and sixteen, I guess. So you see, the function there, comes after a little bit.
Wanda: Yeah.
Matthew: Now there's a lady, you want to ask me about her. See that nice lady there on the table?
Wanda: Oh yes.
Matthew: I don't know whether she's dead or who she is or where she lives. I've had that for fifteen years. Now—here's what happened. I used to take a lot of portraits, right—I lived—I had two big rooms and I took all nice—portrait pictures, you know. My daughter's got all of the—junk over to her house. And I went lookin’ around. I used to go down to the Volunteers and Salvation Army to buy frames. 'Cause they were expensive. That frame—she was in that, y’know, and I took her home and she looked at me like that, you know. It—it just—I thought to myself. You take a look at it, take it up close.
Wanda: It's beautiful, isn't it?
Matthew: Uh- huh. And I said to myself, ""Jesus, that nice lady, I can't just take her out of there and tear her up or throw her away."" And everybody thinks she's my wife. [chuckles.] I said, ""I don't know whether that's an angel or not."" I said, ""That lady might be dead for a long time,"" but I says—ah, I just couldn't throw her away. You know I didn't want—because that, ah, frame—I coulda used the frame, all right. But I says, ""No."" And she looked at me like that, y’know, and I said, ""All right."" Isn't that silly?
Wanda: No, it's not silly.
Matthew: Anyway, I got an aunt, two aunts, that—that—they're real Indian, y’know. And, but she—she looks like, like, like one o’ them. Aunt Lou, she's dead now. You see my, my grandfather William—now they're talking about the Roots,⁺ y’know. There's one of my cousins—I guess at the same time this guy started Roots—and he lives down in Jersey, so he came up and he, ah—his mother was my mother's sister. See? One of her sisters, she had five of ‘em. So he come up out of New York and he says, ""Matt,"" he says, ""What—ah—what—name some of the people.""
Well, he tried to find—so I named him some and he says—ah—he wanted to get 'em. Now, my mother's father, he came from England, and his people—cut him off, because they called him the black sheep. He—he was one of an Englishman that wanted to get out and come here and have, do things, y’know. Of course they had a—crockery ware. And, ah—his name—their names were Webb. His name was William Webb.
Wanda: They had a crock—crockery?
Matthew: Well—they had a—a—crock—like, like crockery wares, y’know, dishes and things like that.
Wanda: Umhmm.
Matthew: They have a—either wholesale, or they manufacture them. I don't know what it was. Mother used to tell it, y’know. And, ah—so—I—ah—their names were Webb. They were William Webb’s. Big tall man—he had this long mustache. He looked like those, ah—colonels that they have in England, y’know, those—ah, yeah, like that. [Laughs at the suggestion of a monocle.] And so they, they, they threw him. He—he said he didn't care whether he saw them anymore or not, because he came to this country and he turned out to be a carpenter, y’know. He liked that trade. And he must’ve learned when he was young and he grew up to be a—a good carpenter, and he, ah—oh, ah—came home and told my grandmother, one night, Mother said, that he thought he fell off the scaffold where he was workin', y’know? No, not him—the fellow that was his partner—fell off the scaffold—and died. And she said it was two weeks after that—that he fell off the scaffold, and when he went down he hit his back on—on one of those tombstones, y’know? And, and he died. Broke his back. Now maybe—these days they mighta been able to do something for him, y’know? He died. Well now, he left a son, my mother's brother. And he was a handsome guy, Junie. Tall and he looked just like his dad, y’know. And, ah—he, ah—was a fireman. Years ago, y’know, they didn't tell, they couldn't tell for sure who was—y’know—what he was, see? He was an Englishman, that's all. Ah, and my uncle, y’know, I wish I had some o’ those pictures to show you, he was a handsome man, And, ah, so that's how I got mixed up. So my—they—they got some, ah—some stuff in this tree. But I think they got it mixed up with an oak tree, or something, but anyway—they couldn't put some of the limbs back. So—that's some of those things that went around, y’know, and now to show you what a nice job—a different job I had—ah—I—you know—prejudice is an awful thing. You know, they had the medical depot up here—
Wanda: Yeah.
Matthew: You know where that was?
Wanda: Umhmm.
Matthew: OK. A man downtown that's supposed to hire you and send you there. Regardless, see. It was a government job. So I went up there two or three times and I filled an application out and he says, ah, ""I'll let you know in—in a week."" A week'd go by, and I'd get up there and I'd go up and I'd see him sittin' right in the office there. And, he was up in the, ah—now let's see if I can get this filled in right where he was. I think it was in the, ah—the—the building on, on Chenango Street where the, ah—the first, ah—Union—I mean, ah—not Union, but, ah—ya had to pay your taxes—where the taxes were—in that old—in that building where—where the, ah—gas company was, see? Over there. Well, anyway—no. It was across the street, where the—where the loan place is. They opened that up for government work, y’know. At the time, y’know? Right across? Well anyway, I got tired of being run around. So, I knew a girl that was a typist down there and I said to her, ""Hey look, I made a mistake on my, ah”—you know, ah—
Wanda: Application?
Matthew: “Application.” I said, ""Can I have a couple of them? Better give me two so if I won't make a mistake."" Says, ""OK,"" so she gave me two. I took them home that night. I'm married, too, now, you know. And I wrote on it. Filled them out. Front and back. And the next morning I says, ""I'm going up there."" So I went up, and you had to have a—ah—notice from his office before you could—y’know, they had everything guarded and you had to have it to get in. So I happened to go up to the picket. It was easy, y’know, and I'm walking around, and I walked up there ""biggie"" like—I thought I was gonna get throwed out, see, but anyway, I walked up there that morning, y’know. And so I says, ""Hi, fellas,"" so he says, ""What fella?""
I says, ""Hi, Frank."" He says, ""Hiya, Matt. What are you doin' up here?"" I says, ""Well, I come up to go to work, but I just have a paper like that, y’know. Goin' to see if I can get a job up here and go to work."" And, ah—he didn't even look at me, y’know. He says, ""Go ahead,"" So I went in. So here was a little Frenchman. Up on the steps in the Administration Building. And, ah—he come up there and he says, ""Can I help you?"" I says, ""I'm lookin' for a job, and I have my papers."" He says, ""You have?"" And I says, ""Yeah.""
""Well, what do you do?""
And I says, ""Here's my application."" So down in there it says, ah—freelance photographer and experience in, ah—printing and developing and so forth, y’know?
""Ahh—just the man I want. I need a photographer,"" he says. ""You gonna get a job.""
I says, ""Why?"" He took me right in, you know, and he says, ah, “We got nothin' here, but we'll take care of ya."" And I happened to have about seventeen hundred dollars worth of equipment, you know, of my own, see? And he says, ah, “Maybe you can't do no work right now,” but he says, ""We—we can fix some way."" So what I had to do, the first thing, was to take the pictures of—ah—thirty-six hundred people that worked there, y’know. That the—ah—numbers and everything. And I had a camera that could do that, y’know. And I brought it up. So that, and I had this—two bulbs that—hundred-watt bulbs, you know—put 'em there and I made a frame. Everybody'd sit there and I was workin' and I was developing them—every night. So the next morning I could have a string with the numbers on, see, that I took, And I got through with that, so—they finally sent down a couple of things and got my stuff in a truck, see? Brought it up. And this guy comes in there one day and he says, ""What are you doin' here?""
I says, ""Me?"" I didn't know anything. ""Me?""
He says ""Yeah.""
Says ""I'm workin' here.""
""What are ya doin'?""
I says, ""I'm takin’ all the photographs here. Big ones and little ones.""
""Why, how'd you get that job?""
I says, ""Just on account of you not puttin' me through."" I said, ""I've got what it takes to do the job and the Frenchman is not prejudiced."" And I says, ""Right away, he was lookin' for me but I didn't know it,"" I said.
""Where the hell did you get the papers?""
I says, ""I stole 'em up there one day."" I says, ""I'm workin' now. What are you gonna do about it? I work for Uncle Sam and you can't fire me—for nothing—if I'm handy an’ I'm workin’ for Uncle Sam. I got the job—signed up,"" I says, ""You're outta luck.""
Wanda: This was government work, right?
Matthew: Heh?
Wanda: It was government work?
Matthew: Yeah. And, ah—I had to fill the application and everything, y’know. If you work for the government, you've got five or six people that don't like you. They're trying to get rid of you. They do everything—they can't do it. You gotta come to a—you know—a court hearing to find out why. They can't just say, ""Oh, kick him outta here."" That's one thing about government work, you know. You've got to have a real good reason.
Wanda: Civil Service.
Matthew: Yeah, and I was so mad—y’know—I used to box and wrassle, see. It was so hard for me to keep off that guy, you know. And, and I didn't want to spoil it because I'm gonna beat him up, then you know, they—[laughter]. So I had to take that for a while, and so every time he'd come back—so the Colonel says to me, Colonel Dowitz, his name was, ah—and he says, ""Matt,"" he says, ""Tell ya something,"" he says, ah, ""We haven't got the room that—that—ah—you want, but,"" he says, ""here's a place you can fix up."" He says, ""I'll get the carpenters sent over.""
A carpenter come—""Whadda you want?"" I had two big, big—I didn't need all the rooms. I had two rooms—as big as these two together, more there, and then the Monolith machine, y’know. Did you ever see them?
Wanda: No.
Matthew: Well they're, ah—they're machines that you work that, that run a lot of paper like a mimeograph machine.
Wanda: What did you call it?
Matthew: Monolith. Then, and, and so I made even plates for that. And, and, they had a big machine in there, that they—you know, you go downtown and they have, ah—records made of some papers. Years ago it cost 'em eighteen hundred dollars for the machine, you know, and I learned to work that.
Wanda: Photostat machine?
Matthew: Photostat machine.
Wanda: I used to run one of those.
Matthew: Did ya? How d’you like those things? Well, I'll tell ya, well, this, this one, I think it was eighteen hundred dollars or something like that one, and I got out on—this guy came down one day and he says, ""Whaddya doin'? Now."" I says, ""I'm makin’ some—photostats.""
""Where'd you learn?""
I said, ""Look, Mister,"" I said, ""I can't tell you all the colleges I've finished—"" And I used to “bull” him until—[laughter]—he believed everything that I'd tell him. After that, you know. I said, ""I can't begin to tell you how many colleges I went through—for this stuff."" And ah—at the time, these were really the best of the things that I liked in my life. And I took pictures of my kids all the time, I had a little fella that big. His mother dressed him up nice one Sunday, so I says—he's my big son, one of my big sons now—he says, ah—I says, ""Hey, Louie,"" I says, ""Let Daddy put you on the table."" Every Sunday I was takin' pictures like that. I got a lot of 'em in a box that my daughter's got—so—they wouldn't get lost, you see? Because—I had some kids break in my house—one time, and all the beautiful pictures I had—of street-cars—and everything—from way back—they just—gouged them all on the floor, you know. Well anyway, I says, ""Daddy'll give you two cents for a picture.""
“All right.” So he stood with his hands behind him, one foot out, you know, lookin' nice. I took one and I says, ah, ""Well, now Daddy'll take another one,"" I says, ah, ""because maybe that'll be good.""
""Daddy—two pennies? Two pennies?"" That little rascal—he was six years old, and yet—he was toutin' me. Not ready for school yet, anyway, but, and he's tellin' me, ""Two pennies, Daddy. Two pennies."" [laughter] Sorry. I said even if he was panning—he was usin' his brains all the time, y’know, just like his father.
Wanda: Did you—you do much landscape photography or scenic stuff, too?
Matthew: Yes. I did a lot. I—I—wish't I—let's see—I—I—I've got everything put away, but I've got, ah—slides, you know.
Wanda: Oh, we, we can go into that some other time.
Matthew: Some other time. Yeah, I'll get some out then. That's all my daughter Charlotte and I'd do, we—ah—we went, ah, around every, ah—day that we had off, and we’d go and then there was one of the Foster grandmothers, she likes being out in the woods in the country, so we'd take her and a friend of hers, and she says—in the summer, ah—two years ago she says, ""Matt,"" she says, ""Beautiful day out,"" and I said, ""Yeah,"" I says, ah, “We get out at twelve o'clock, y’know,"" I says.
""Well, let's go down and get a hunk of bread and a baloney,"" and I said ""We'll go out—I'll take pictures."" And I took a lot of pictures. Oh, I—old broken-down barns, y’know, with the humpbacks. One of 'em fell down and, and I knew it was an old barn and I could see the pegs were in there holding it up—the—beams about that big, y’know, and, and all these years—it was over a hundred years old. And I had a feeling. ""Matt,"" I says, ""that's only about a hundred twelve—fourteen years old.” And—and there was no bolts in it. A great big barn, put up there with these—ah—pegs, wooden pegs, y’know.
Wanda: Wooden pegs. Amazing.
Matthew: Umhmm. And then I've got pictures of old folks, y’know. I'll pick out some slides, and then I'll let ya know and then you can come in and—
Wanda: I'd love to. Mr. Newcomb is interested in—in seeing some of your—
Matthew: But. That's all I'd do. You know I—did—oh, I'd spend a lot of money with different ones who didn't have nothin' to do and they had a car. Five, six dollars worth of gas and we'd ride, and then, ah—she used to say to me, ""Where'll we go today, Matt?"" And I says, ""Just—just get goin'."" And we'll stop and get this an’ that an’ the other, and then we'd come back here and it would be very, very—why, it would be night, y’know? And here I'd go down. I'd go north, here, and what do I see? The sun is shining on this side, see? And then I take all the pictures, on this side the river, we'll say, going all the way up to—to—ah—oh—ah—Oxford, there. Up that way. Now, in the afternoon, to get—I'd cross over and come down the other side, and the sun is in the west—start in on that side. And that's what I had to do. So I went in—the morning—and we'd go up and up until about two o'clock, anyway, and go one side and take, and then, then we would always go on the old roads—on the back roads, you know. Oh, I enjoyed that. We got fooled one time. I'll show you, maybe, someday. All right. I went to a place up—above Oxford, there—where they had a civilian camp, you know. And they had this fireplace which was wide as that machine [the stereo] and it went up like that, and off the ground was that big, where they had the fireplace, y’know. And, ah—they had great big stones, they were stones about that big and they were cemented in and there was nothin' but the chimneys left—with the fireplace in there. All the rest of the buildings had been cleared away. And I says, ""Gee, I've run into something."" I—got a lot of slides, y’know, and I came home and I had 'em finished up. Because I don't do that 35mm stuff, y’know. Not now. And, ah—so I had 'em all done, y’know, and I said, ""Gee, I've gotta get the history of this."" And—everything was gone, you know. It looked—and everybody said, ""Where'd you ever get this? Gee, where'd you get this?""
I said ""Oh, I don't know—it's some place George Washington fooled around in."" I says, ah, ""It's upstate here.” So—one of the guys—I went up there one day. I was deer hunting, y’know, and I went up there to see him and ask him if he wanted to go out and take me someplace. And I says, ""By the way,"" I says, ah, ""There's two big chimneys here, and,” I says, “a big fireplace."" I says, ""Boy, that must be over a hundred years old.""
He says ""Huh?"" He says, ""Whadda you mean?"" So I told him where. ""Ah, man,"" he says, ""Boys put that up during the Depression.” Wh—when they had the civilians, you know, had the boys planting trees.
Wanda: C.C.C.?
Matthew: Yeah. [laughter]. I says, ""Boy!"" But you see the hundred in, ah—ah, Latin, isn't it?
Wanda: Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew: So CCC would be three hundred years old.
Wanda: Makes a good story, anyway.
Matthew: Yeah. Well, I was excited.
Wanda: Well, of course.
Matthew: I says, ""They must have—baked people in there when they got bad or somethin’.” So I was—the fireplace was—this long, you know, and then the chimney came way out and up like that, and out of this side—it was huge chimneys, y’know. But, but they, ah, wasn't built right down low, it was built up about that high. You know, with a fireplace you'd freeze to death. Y'ever been in a house that had a fireplace—years ago?
Wanda: Yes.
Matthew: OK. When I was in Jersey, my aunt had a house, so—one at a time we'd stand up there or sit up there—and your face burns up, y’know, and here and your back is—freezing. You turn around, put your back to it an’ you freeze your face. [laughs]. You know, I used to think, ""Gee whizz.” I never have been in one before, y’know, but down there, they lived out in the country when I went to visit. Well, up here we always had stoves and ranges, and my aunt—""Well, Aunt Maria,"" I says, ""How do you keep warm all around?""
She says ""You keep turning around."" I liked that place because they, they had a—ah, well, there was a kind of canal—nearby. About as far as from here—oh—halfway down the building, y’know. And ah—high w—the water come in there when the tide raised, y’know, from the ocean. And we could catch crabs in there at night—
Wanda: Oh my.
Matthew: —and—turtles that big, see. So one night we—ah—we heard ducks. Ducks are crazy, you know, they—on moonlit nights they, they walk all night long catching frogs and things, y’know.
Wanda: I didn't know that.
Matthew: Ducks, you can find ducks, ah—walkin’ around, you know, at night. And the lawn went down, sloped down to the river. So one night we heard, ""Quack, quack, quack, quack."" And I got up an’ looked out and there was a turtle—almost, about big around as a basket, there, ah, you know—
Wanda: Bushel basket?
Matthew: About that high, and he had this duck backin' and drivin' and the duck was just—
[END OF TAPE. They caught the turtle and made steaks of it.]
[BEGINNING OF TAPE #2]
[Mr. Alston brought out some of his photographic equipment, and he and Wanda spent some time inspecting cameras, lenses, etc.]
Wanda: This is your Speed—Graphic?
Matthew: Yes.
Wanda: B. and J. Press—that's an oldie.
Matthew: Yeah. See, I can use this because I've got, ah—whaddya call it, plates. Ah—I ran that off the track.
Wanda: Just let me look at it.
Matthew: It's heavy.
Wanda: Yes it is. Kalart? —Matic Rangefinder. That's a classic, isn't it?
Matthew: Oh, it is.
Wanda: Yeah.
Matthew: And I got the lenses upstairs. You know, I never get—I can start talkin’ on cameras and I can spend a whole week.
Wanda: You never get tired of them.
Matthew: No.
Wanda: It's like some people like to play with cars.
Matthew: Yeah. And there's a lens that's two hundred and fifty dollars, just for the lens.
Wanda: Projection?
Matthew: We can use that on—on a camera, too. See these lens boards they made? The—they're supposed to hold a 16mm Kodak. Oh, I've got three or four of these around. But you see, unless you can sell them to somebody that's got a camera like this, they're no good.
Wanda: Yeah.
Matthew: And it's better to use these now and then.
Wanda: Oh, it is?
Matthew: Oh yes. Because they, they get tired, y’know. I've got a few pictures here, I picked up when I took— Can you get it on?
Wanda: No.
Matthew: Well, pull it right out.
Wanda: It's off the, the track.
Matthew: Put it way back in there.
Wanda: Yeah.
Matthew: Now see if we can get it on the track. Leaning a little bit—easy—wait a minute. Now pull that in there—are they on the track?
Wanda: Yeah.
Matthew: There you are, now, y’see? That's a little extension bellows on there. And a lock there, see. Now—
Wanda: Oh yeah.
Matthew: That's—bring it all the way out, y’see?
Wanda: And you could use these for copy work and everything.
Matthew: Oh yes. And you see, you get the same size—as your picture, when you copied. I like to copy a lot, but now—you know—I never— And so then you take this and you lock it, see? Then it goes through, wait a minute, then this, then this. And there's a back on this, see? And, ah—this? See how it goes?
Wanda: That's a beauty.
Matthew: Umhmm.
Wanda: Do you have a darkroom now?
Matthew: Well—I make one out of the bathroom. I have a table to fit over my—a toilet bowl with legs on the side, and then it goes right across the wash basin, so it, ah—it comes in quite handy and I've got everything—that I need in there.
Wanda: You can do a lot with a little space, can't you?
Matthew: Oh yes.
Wanda: What are your pictures there?
Matthew: Here are some, ah—here's a couple o’ my, my daughters up at the park.
Wanda: Nice.
Matthew: And this is down at the old State Armory—ah, you know, the one on Washington Street at the time?
Wanda: Oh—oh yes.
Matthew: And this is Derek—that's my son. He looks just like that—you know—he was just that size when he said, ""Two cents, please.""
Wanda: That's a cute little thing.
Matthew: This picture I took up in Syracuse, it's a—one of the buildings there.
Wanda: You said you had one of the last horse-drawn trolleys?
Matthew: Here's three of my kids— Yeah, with the horses. I went down—I haven't got it there now, but I went down to a—I didn't go to the Traction Company. I went down where the—Exchange on Court Street, and they said all those pictures—somebody took 'em. Change the office, there you know—I gotta go down there and see. He said some of the guys, you know, put out word to see if I could get one for you.
Wanda: Oh.
Matthew: See, they've changed, that's—this is a—
Wanda: How come people are so careless with things like that?
Matthew: Yeah. This. Another one. And there's a—let's see. See, I took pictures of the kids all the time. Every time I'd turn around I had a picture of them. Now there's another one. Here's a pic—you want to got down to—oh—ah—oh, you know the one. Let's see what it says here.
Wanda: The Speedex?
Matthew: These, I just happened to grab while I was upstairs here.
Wanda: Ah, I wonder if—
Matthew: See, I did all these—I finished all these myself.
Wanda: Yeah. Well, how did you get your—job that you told me about? Working with the insurance company and the—
Matthew: Well, I don't know, I got it. Every time I went downtown, you know when I go now, I gotta—one of those cases, y’know?
Wanda: Like this?
Matthew: No, not that thing. Oh ,it's like—like on the davenport, I guess. Well, anyway, I'll show it to ya. I—I'd go down and everybody took me for a veterinarian or a doctor, and honestly—
Wanda: Because of your camera case?
Matthew: Yeah, ‘cause I had it in my hand, see. And I had one guy, says, ""You know, I see you all the time with that thing."" It was never away from me. I always had it—in case of accidents and things, y’know. And he says, ah, ""You always got it there. I thought you were some kind of a doctor or maybe a veterinarian."" He wouldn't say a medical doctor, he had to put me in a vet—with the horses. Hah. So that's what you had to put up with, see? I'm not good enough to be a medical doctor, but I, I could work on horses. Ahah? Well, people are funny. I, it don't bother me, I get a kick out of it, things people say. And there's two ways to focus this, you see? Now you put that on a tripod, you see the footage here? And then, see this little marker? Right there? Oh, right here.
Wanda: Yeah.
Matthew: You wind it up there—focus—like that—without takin' it out.
Wanda: Hmm. Did you have any connection with Ansco? Ever—did you do any work for them?
Matthew: The only thing I did for them, I taught some of their workers how to enlarge or develop.
Wanda: Hmm.
Matthew: They came to me—it was just a short course of about a—maybe six weeks. One—one or two nights a week if you wanted to come. You see, to fill out an application there it says, ah, to get in this department—ah—“Did you ever have any experience in, a—enlarging or copying,” something, and ""No."" So they'd come to me and they get the experience, then they go back and fill out the application, they get the job. So I go down—after I'd been doin' it for quite a while, and I apply for a job with the office there. Got talkin'. And I told him, I says, ""You know I—helped a lot of your—your workers out.” He says, ""You're the man."" I says, ""Yeah."" He says, ""Well, gee, ya—did a good job on it.""
I says, ""Well, now I wonder if there's any place for me down here?"" I says, ""I've done most anything in that line.""
""Oh no,"" he told me. ""How old are ya?"" I says I was about 45, 50, ya know. He says, ""Well,"" he says, ""you're beyond the age. We don't take men over 35."" There's always an excuse. I says, ""I know a lot,” but he says I'm too old now. Y’know. Well, he says, ""We—we might let you know,"" he says. ""Anyway,"" he says, ""You're willing to work?"" He says, ""There's a lotta room in the warehouse."" I says, ""Whaddya do?""
""Oh—move racks around and, you know—and sweep or—sweep up the place.""
I said, ""Go to hell, will ya?"" I said, ""I know more about this than half of your guys in here,"" and I says, ""You want me to sweep?"" I said, ""I don't, don't do that for nobody.""
Wanda: Rug beater.
Matthew: Yeah, sweep up—oh boy.
Wanda: How can you laugh about things like that?
Matthew: Huh?
Wanda: How can you laugh?
Matthew: Because it's funny. I go there, y’know, like anybody else, and then they give me that stuff, but—but they seem to, they seem to learn something. You see, now, in the Army—they had a little place up there—“If of African descent, tear this off."" Nothing on the other three sides. That's to classify you. Without any trouble, see. So I left mine on. And I had trouble—tryin' to—get back to bein' a colored guy again. [laughter.] I didn't tear it off, see? That's a fact, see. Now my boys, they, they never had that. They're light, most of them, y’know. They're like their mother, y’know? And, ah—well, you see the youngsters here. So we never had much trouble in the family. But I'm telling you—my time comin' up, they was tough. Born in 1892, so you know, that's close to the Civil War finishing, and then the Spanish-American War come in, y’know, the Japanese war—years ago, see. And—I mean the Philippines—years ago—in the United States, and as I say, that just went on. When I first went in the Army—they had a—unit for colored boys. You know, I say “colored” because, ah—the Black man that's as black as—? An’ like that, that's all right for him—he's a Black man. But if he had—if he wasn't color-blind—there's all colors. Red, yellow, blue, green, orange.
Wanda: That's right.
Matthew: So—I—I—I just resent it when somebody says I'm a Black man. I says, ""You're color-blind.""
""Whaddya mean?""
I says, ""Don't try to supply me with a Black man.” I says, ""You call me ‘colored,’ and like it.""
""I see your point.""
I said, ""Yeah, well, see my point,"" I says. ""Just be a little, you know, ah, decent with these guys."" Says, ""You don't want to—?”
I says, ""I've known that since I was born,"" but I says, ""Don't try to classify me like this, 'cause,” I said, ""That guy, he's Black and he wants to beauti—he wants Black to be beautiful."" I said ""OK,"" I said, ""If I was Black, OK, but,"" I said, ""I'm not black."" And I says, ""What color are you?"" And he says, ""Well,"" he says, ""you can see.""
I says, ""Yeah. You're a white man, but do you know you're white?"" I says, ""You didn't follow your dad around, or your grandfather? You don't know what little Black sister you've got, or little Black brother you've got, somewhere in the world."" I says, ""Now, don't be so—quick to jump up and call somebody what they are."" I says, ""Look—I know a lot of people—that passes for white—nice people. And I don't blame them because you get a better—opportunity, see?"" And I says, ah, ""Your father and mother told you was a white boy. You're gonna remember that. And that's what you're gonna be, see? Nothin' against you, but,” I said, ""a colored boy is born, they tell him he's a colored boy. So he knows that, and everybody else."" So I said, ""Whenever they—they mix them up so that you can't tell a white boy from a colored boy,"" I says, ""then it's come time for you to go and study something, because you—you don't know who you look like, for an instance—that are runnin’ around this country."" Some of 'em get mad and some of 'em don't, but I don't care. They don't want to belittle me, you know what I mean? God made me and He made them, and He chooses to make me different than them—that's why He give me a brain—I'm gonna use it. And that's whether you're white or Black, I don't give a darn.
See I—I've got—look, I'm invited now into a party—or not a party, but a wedding—of a—white girl. Very nice, and ah—she's gonna get married in St. Paul's church on the eleventh. And I'm invited and I'm taking—Suzanne with me, and then the reception, it should be in—well—up in Chenango Bridge, I think they said.
Wanda: Oh, the Country Club.
Matthew: Yeah. And I'm always in places like that. Now when I was a kid, the firemen would have a—a dance. The colored guys—”Now—? They don't want you there."" I says, ""Look, you know a lotta people there. You know some firemen there."" I says, “All right, get a ticket an’ go."" My wife and I went to everything and there was no—as I said, it depends on who you are and that, you know. But you don't want to be timid. You know what I mean? Because there's somebody knows you there and you're gonna enjoy—yourself, see? So I'd buy a ticket and, ah—bought a ticket to the Italian, ah—the dance they used to give down to the Knickerbocker Hall. You don't remember that—that's down on the first—you know where Henry Street, way down towards the river?
Wanda: Yeah.
Matthew: Well, you know that building right next to it—Knickerbocker? They tore that down now, see? Well, anyway—ah—these Italians—I used to have two or three Italian friends, and they hired the hall. So this one fella—Joseph—he, he had a girlfriend and she had a sister, and we were all in school together—so he says, ah, ""C'mon, Matt.""
So I says, ""Sure."" I wasn't married then, see. Well, I was a real Indian. I had paint on my face and I had a big Indian outfit, a—you know—ah—big feathers? And I had, ah—pants—you know—buckskin with fringe on like that, an’ moccasins? And I used to do an Indian war dance, so they—they—ah—we waltzed and waltzed and danced together, an’ I danced with everybody. They don't, they don't know me—I got war paint on, see, and Joe, he was a—oh, a—a warrior and I was the chief. His girlfriend was a—was a squaw, and this sister and I—she was Columbia—you know, dressed like Columbia, like that. So after the dance and the grand march was over, they took me aside, and Joe and the two girls, and we had to waltz around and then they took ya outta the bunch, y’know, and there was this guy up there, you see.
[Impersonating an Italian accent] ""I tell you,"" he says, ""Indian man. Big-a Chief. He's-a got-a first-a prize for men. Little-a papoose, he's got a, he's got a, for a papoose he's got a, got a prize. He's—a girl, he's-a call um a squaw and she's got a prize, a second-a, and the Chief, his-a wife, she's got a nice-a prize."" So everybody took off their masks. Says, “An’ everybody, now, take-a mask off, please."" So I just kept a, I kept my bonnet on, y’know, and I didn't, ah, or didn't wipe my face off too good, and then after the first few—I wiped it off good and he says, ""Aw look. Attsa nice-a boy,"" he says, “I know that's-a Matt-chew—a-Matt-chew."" And everybody went, ""Look!"" and I got—they wanted to know how I disguised myself, y’know? So I got a—I got a shaving kit and a mirror off here and a stem down here and a base, and it had on here—a cup for—you know at that time we used that—
Wanda: —Oh, shaving cream with a brush—
Matthew: —a brush. I hated to fool them, but that was the only time it ever happened, and the firemen—they had a hall, and it got so everybody knew us, you know, when we went down. And the funny part—we used to waltz, see, they had waltzes on. They had prizes and like that. My wife says, ""I know that man. I'll tell you why,"" she says, ""Hey, would you look at that shirt? The poor man needs a button.""
I said, ""People are human,"" I says, ""so—the farther you stay away from them the less they know about you."" But I said, ""You mingle with them and be around them, they come to know you. And if you're different than the other ones,"" I says. ""Everybody has got to have fun,"" I says. “They sell me their tickets, and,"" I says, ""I'd sue 'em if they didn't let me go up there and dance."" Well, that's how we had our fun. My kids are the same.
Wanda: You have a wonderful outlook on life.
Matthew: Well—I have to have it if I'm going to be happy. And now I go to work, you know what I mean? They say, ""How—how do you get along, going like that?"" I says, ""Look,"" I says, ""I let the day take care of itself. Tomorrow I don't know what's gonna happen. When it comes, then I know what to do.” I says, ""Why should I worry about what's gonna happen tomorrow?"" I says, ""So that's the way to do it,"" I says. ""You don't have to do what I do, but,"" I says, ""that's the way I figure it out."" And that's a fact, because you don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. You know today.
Wanda: Thank heaven.
Matthew: [Laughter].
Wanda: Do you work with children all the time up at B.O.C.E.S.?
Matthew: Yeah, I do want to tell ya. Instead of taking my vacation—I go up to the, ah—other place up there—to the Broome Developmental—those little ones up there, and they're—there’re some mongoloids up there and then there's a lot of, ah—deformed kids. They're all in wheelchairs. There's six hundred altogether—some young ones and up, old ones up to twenty years old there. They live there and they take a certain bus, go to—they're active and they can, ah, understand. They bring them up to school in buses, to B.O.C.E.S.—different grades.
Wanda: And what do you teach them?
Matthew: Well—the teachers up there, women, they teach, ah—ah, the little ones, ah—oh, ah—how to read and write and so forth, y’know. And once in a while we jump in if—they've got a few that we help out, that it's a little too hard for them, y’know. Bring 'em up and then, ah, we don't teach 'em a full course, y’know, but we teach them crafts. Something they can do with their hands, you know. And like—ah—I teach them to, ah—braid, you know, pocketbooks.
[Matthew shows a hand-made wallet.]
Wanda: Oh. Somebody did this for you, huh?
Matthew: Yep. And, ah—they got spaces in there, you know, inside for the, oh—ah—well, you know—stuff there. And I, quite often the—I got the one there—the doctor—I gotta go to him tomorrow. Every now and then, when I get examined, see, I go to a regular doctor. I have to go to be examined now. After—tonight, after eleven o'clock you don't eat, and tomorrow morning you fast, and I go there and then they—draw the blood, y’know, and analyze that and then he tells me—he gives me a cup of coffee, ah—tells me to go ahead and—
Wanda: Where do you find a doctor like that?
Matthew: They do—down there, though, the girls. And he says, ah, and he says, ""Well, go home and eat a—eat a horse!"" He's a nice doctor. Doctor, ah—Grinberg.
Wanda: Oh.
Matthew: You know him? He's the best doctor in the world.
Wanda: I would love to go to him.
Matthew: He's nice. He's just like a brother since he's known me. He just pulled me through a—a bad sickness I had one time. So, ah—I fish and I bring him a fish like that, and I bring him squirrels and rabbits and things, y’know. I hunt a little bit, now. The boy does most of the heavy hunting. I, I just go to the—to the places that are close by, y’know.
Wanda: Your family's around here, are they?
Matthew: Well, not everybody. I, I've got a daughter in Michigan and I've got one in—in, ah, Dayton, Ohio, and I've got one in Chicago. I've got one in, ah—Los Angeles, and I have—how many's that make, four?
Wanda: Yes.
Matthew: And then I have two here. I have Peggy and Suzanne here. And then I've got a girl that's in—you know the grandchildren in—eleven, eleventy dozen grandchildren. [Laughter.]
Wanda: Has this been home all your life?
Matthew: Oh yes. It's, ah—since I was little. I came up from Jersey.
Wanda: Oh.
Matthew: When I was about nine years old. Yes. I like Binghamton. I—I knew most everybody here, and when they go fishing, you know, they—my son-in-law says to me one time—Jack is a, is, ah, is, ah, my son-in-law. He went fishing up to Afton. I know every place from here to Canada, you know? And he says to me, ""Hey,"" he says, ah, ""Dad,"" he says, ah, ""I wish we could get up there where Jack was last week.""
I says, ""Where?"" He says, ""Up to Afton."" I says, ""What part?"" He says, ""I don't know, but,"" he says, ""we crossed a bridge,"" and he says, ah, ""I don't know, we went down by the bridge and got a boat."" And I said, ""Was it an old bridge or a new bridge?"" And he says ""A modern bridge."" So we got in the car that time, you know, started, y’know. And he, ah, we got up to Afton. We crossed the bridge and I look down and I says, ah—ah, I says, ""Is this the bridge you crossed?""
""Yep."" And I looked down to the end, and I looked down and I saw there was about ten or twelve PepsiCo bottles. He says, ""That's the place! That's the place! You know how Jack is always drinkin’—big quarts, quarts of Pepsi-Cola."" And there were all these bottles. So we went down and we caught fish. Went back and told Jack. And he says, ""Jesus, can't get away from him."" I says, ""I know,"" I says, ""I’ve fished every foot of this pond since I'm about seventeen years old."" But, that's the way my, my wife and, and Johnny and his wife and Leo Payne and his wife—used to—travel together, you know? And, ah, they'd leave on Sunday. I said, ""Oh, I don't think I'll go."" And later on my wife says, ""Let, let's go fishin'."" I says, ""For part of the day."" So the first thing I'll say, ah, ""Well, where would they go today?""
""I don't know."" So we go up to Afton. We go two places there, we don't see 'em. We go back, go to Whitney Point. We don't see ‘em there. So we finally go on up around Oxford and we come down. Every place we ever fished. And I find them—Whitney Point. They gotta be one of those places. [Laughter.]
Wanda: Good a way as any, isn't it?
Matthew: Oh yes—umhmm. But as I said, I know, I know Binghamton—way, way back.
Wanda: I think if, if you'd like, we could do this again, could we?
Matthew: Anytime, sure.
Wanda: I'm so grateful for the interview you've given.
Matthew: Oh, I've enjoyed your company too. We had a lot of fun. We relaxed and—
Wanda: You bet.
Matthew: I'm not crazy, I'm just silly. [Laughter.]
[The introduction to this interview was accidentally erased. The subject is Matthew Alston, residing at 150 Moeller Street, Binghamton, NY.]
",,,,"33:09 Minutes ; 12:25 Minutes ; 33:29 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Matthew Alston",,,,1978-01-30,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Alston, Matthew -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Musicians -- Interviews; Orchestra; Jazz; Photographers; Discrimination; Arlington Hotel; Bennett Hotel",2017-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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(Edwin Albert), 1904-1981; Airplanes; Air pilots -- Interviews; Link Aviation; Chenango Bridge Airport","Harmon and Harold Johnson describe learning to fly in the early 1930s under the direction of Edwin Link. They operated the Chenango Bridge Airport. They discuss the requirements for licensing, and progressing to commercial, transport, and instructor's ratings. The brothers also discuss various aircrafts they have flown, working as pilots for corporate businesses, and how post WWII affected their operation. They operated a dealerships for Aeronca and Piper airplanes. They talk about changes in flying school, air shows and stunt pilots who visited Chenango Bridge, and how the airport's usefulness has declined due to modern developments in aviation. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-01-31,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 36",,"Wood, Wanda","Johnson, Harmon; Johnson, Harold",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Harmon and Harold Johnson
Interviewed by: Wanda Wood
Date of interview: 31 January 1978
Wanda: This is Wanda Wood interviewing Harmon and Harold Johnson on Airport Road in Chenango Bridge, and the date is the thirty-first of January, 1978. Now, you Johnson brothers have operated the Chenango Bridge Airport since the mid-thirties, and we'd like to know a little something about the history of the operation or any remembrances that you have which you'd like to put down on this tape. So who wants to start first?
Harmon: I'll say that I got the flying bug in about 1930. I went for a ride in a an old Tri-motor Ford at the old Bennett Airport, and from then on decided flying was for me and a I saved my money and in 1932 learned to fly with Ed Link at the old Bennett Airport. He had a school there, I soloed out in about the first of May and got a private license in June. At that time it only took ten hours to get a license and the inspector never rode with you. He stood on the ground and watched you. I think he was afraid to ride with you. We didn't have that much time.
Wanda: [laughter] That's funny.
Harmon: Ah, only a joke, I guess, but, ah…they didn't ride with you. They stood on the ground and watched you. After that I flew along with Ed's airplane and got a limited commercial license, and then a couple of years later Harold and I went—my brother and I went in together and bought an airplane, and we brought it up to the Chenango Bridge Airport. There we carried a lot of passengers. Everybody wanted to ride, and we'd take 'em. I guess a dollar a head. Two at a time. They had the Italian field day over here at the old airport and when they had that these people would come from all over—like a big fair. We'd carry a lot of people—just ride around the field.
Wanda: Italian field day here, at this airport?
Harmon: Yeah. Umhmm.
Harold: They'd have them across the river sometimes, too—
Harmon: After that.
Harold: —in the pasture there. It was like an island over there they used to have.
Wanda: So then, Harold. You started to…fly?
Harold: Yeah, I learned to fly on the old American Eagle biplane that we bought together in partnership. My dad helped us out. We didn't have money enough to buy it, so we—the three of us went in. Gave him his money back when we sold it.
Harmon: Well I'd say this. We paid $600.00 for it, which was a lot of money then.
Harold: I'd forgotten what we paid for it.
Harmon: $600.00. Two hundred apiece.
Harold: I learned to fly in that and soloed it, and took a private flight test. And I—the inspector came in to Endicott and I went down to take the flight test on that airplane to get a private license and I came in and he was riding with me. He thought I was too high to shoot for a spot-landing on the airport. He grabbed it away from me and slipped it. And I had to put the power right back on, and drag it in because it was gonna hit short of the field, you know. The inspector did that. I always remember that. He slipped it too much. It was down a hundred feet short of the end of the runway if I hadn't dragged it down, but he just laughed. He didn't say nothing. Gave me my license. I met that guy in Washington. Down there when I was flying in there for some—probably E.J. or somebody at Washington International Airport, and the guy came walking out and wanted to know if I was Johnson from Binghamton and talked with me for a while. He was one of the wheels in the F.A.A. at that time.
Wanda: Oh, he went up the line.
Harold: He's probably retired by now. Maybe he's dead, I don't know, but that was a good many years ago. I got the—I went about a year using a private license. I got the transport in ‘37. That was after we had our C-3 Aeronca. I took that to Ithaca for my transport license.
Wanda: Oh yes, we want to put in here about some of the a—different planes that you've handled and owned and so forth here at Chenango Bridge.
Harmon: We started out with the old Eagle and we sold that. Or Harold started out, actually—I'll take that back. After we sold the Eagle you bought the C-3 Aeronca,didn't you?
Harold: The old Razorback.
Harmon: On your own. I didn't have any money.
Harold: That was about a 1930 or '31 model airplane.
Harmon: And didn't have it any length of time at all and lost it in the fire over here—it burned up.
Harold: Probably six months or something like that.
Harmon: Yeah, we lost it. And then we went back together and Jesse Haskell, who was the owner of the airport, said, “If someone wants to fly, I'll build them a hangar.” So he knocked together a little 2x4 hangar out there—a cheap thing.
Harold: For one airplane. Cheap.
Harmon: For one little airplane.
Wanda: Oh.
Harmon: And nailed some contact supports together and that's—about what it was, a real cheap-built thing. And we started out then teaching students to fly on our C-3 Aeronca. Later on, we got the Aeronca dealership for the Aeronca K, which wasn't much of an airplane. And they changed over in a couple of years and came out with the Aeronca, what they called the Aeronca Chief, which was a good little airplane in its day. It was hard to beat. It was very comfortable riding, very quiet, and good performance for the horsepower that was on it.
Wanda: And you paid how much for the first Aeronca Chief?
Harmon: First Aeronca Chief was right around fifteen hundred—fifteen-fifty or something like that, if I recall.
Wanda: And what are they now?
Harmon: Today if that airplane was built, being built today, would be right around $10,000.00, just about.
Wanda: Mmm.
Harmon: Maybe even more than that. Maybe twelve?
Wanda: So you had dealerships with the Aeronca and the—what's the other one?
Harmon: Piper.
Wanda: Piper. And then a—how about the students and the teaching part of it? You both were—have been instructors all this time.
Harmon: Yes. We got commercial licenses that you have to have to have an instructor's rating and got our instructor's rating as we went along. And, uh, taught for many years. Seems like we always had about all the students we could carry. And I worked a lot of the time at another job, and was always kept pretty busy.
Harold: Before we built that office building that's there now, we had a little shack out in back of there for an office. It had a phone in it and a little stove in it and a desk in it and Doris worked there. But we had appointments so far ahead that... There was so many students wanted to fly. You couldn't take care of them, you know. If you wanted a half-hour on a weekend you'd have to book it at least two weeks ahead. To get in a half-hour lesson.
Harmon: And the weather was against us too, of course. We couldn't fly students when the weather was bad, and this really pushed them in together and—
Harold: Them old airplanes was awful light, you know. You couldn't fly with very much wind with them, with a student. They flobbed around a lot. They was real light airplanes.
Wanda: I want to say I admire you for flying with students anyway. There's a certain amount of risk involved there, isn't there?
Harmon: Oh there's bound to be. Even if you don't get rattled, and stay with it while you're in trouble.
Wanda: And this was mostly during, after the War that you were so busy?
Harmon: Yes. Before the War and right up through the War and on beyond the end of it. And then as the economy—after the War everything let down, if you remember right, and—
Harold: About '48 it started lettin'—
Harmon: '48 it gradually went down. About '50 it was really bad and so I left. I couldn't make a living anymore and I left and went in industry and stayed there until I retired. And we ran the airport as a sideline after Harold left, about 1957 or '58. I continued on with three airplanes. Two Tri-pacers and an Aeronca Champ and it got too much for me. As I stayed and my duties got greater and greater and I got into supervision and I just couldn't handle so much. And I was getting older, too. So I sold one airplane after another and finally wound up with just one airplane that I've run now for the last ten or twelve years. And now I'm down to no students at all and my own airplane. I keep still, a lot of other people's airplanes. Still run the airplane, airport. Mow a lot of grass and plow an awful lot of snow—boy. For nothing, I guess.
Wanda: And Harold, you, you tell a little about when you—a—flew for Endicott-Johnson.
Harold: Yes. After things got quiet here, in order to help out, I, I flew for G.A.F. for about four or five years. That was just on a monthly retainer. I'd fly when they wanted me to. Sometimes I didn't hear from them for a month and then sometimes I'd make a trip to California and back with their airplane. They had two—a Beach Bonanza and a 180-Cessna. At other times they had Tri-pacers, different things I flew for them, but they kept those two for a long time. Then E.J.’s—Asa Dodge was the pilot for E.J.’s.
Wanda: Asa Dodge?
Harold: Yeah, and we knew him well—in fact I'd given him some dual years ago. And he was a—he'd been flying for several years for E.J.’s different airplanes. They bought a brand new Aero-Commander-680 with $20,000.00 worth of electronic gear in it. In them days, that was a lot. And they wanted to have two pilots. So I was, I left G.A.F. and went to work for them full time.
Wanda: And you're a—are you teaching now at all?
Harold: Hmm?
Wanda: Are you teaching now at all?
Harold: No. I haven't done any flying in ten years.
Wanda: ls that a fact?
Harmon: I've told him, ""Hey, come around and fly my Tri-pacer,” but [he] don't want to do it.
Harold: If I could afford a nice twin-engine airplane like a new Aztec or something like that for myself, and afford to operate it, I'd have one and fly it.
Wanda: Yes.
Harold: But, ah…I'm not much interested in flying little machines around locally. I did that too much. Many thousands of hours of it.
Wanda: How many hours do you suppose you, both of you have got logged in this?
Harold: I don't know. Got twenty-some thousand—I don't know what it was.
Harmon: I have logged around ten-thousand and have flown probably many more than that I never logged.
Wanda: Yes.
Harmon: For years, I never bothered with log. Too much of a nuisance to make out a log book, I guess. At the end of the day you're tired out, 'n’ you go home…forget it.
Harold: Yes, for the first ten-thousand I logged most all the time. Where if I didn't, my wife did it for me. She kept it up, you know.Then hit and miss. When I'd work for E.J.’s we had to—we had time to go to the airplanes, and the same way with G.A.F., they had to have the time, you know, but just—flyin' over here and half the time I didn't bother to log it.
Wanda: And, and you've always done your, your own maintenance on these planes?
Harmon: Pretty much, yes.
Harold: When we weren't flying in the wintertime that's how we got by. We used to build airplanes for other people. We used to build wrecks, and overhaul the engines, fix our own up too, during the wintertime get 'em ready for to keep them during the summer, you know? That was the idea. We had a heated shop, heated to a certain extent, enough so that we could work in it you know.We'd have sometimes two or three airplanes torn apart. I remember one guy that bought a wrecked airplane. He bought pieces here and there. Remember Eddie Walker? Harmon: Yeah.
Harold: He made an airplane out of it—and he flew it away. There was some pieces gone. I remember splicing wood spars that was broke right off—splice 'em and glue 'em, you know, clear 'em all up, get them inspected—flew 'em that way. We had the tail end off one airplane, and the front end off another, but as long as we could get 'em and make 'em fly—
Harmon: The F.A.A. came in, you know. We had to take the airplane to the F.A.A. inspector and have it inspected by them. And they would approve it—
Harold: They had to inspect it before, before it was covered, though, you know. Inside and then afterwards and—
Harmon: We'd have to contact them, and they came here to the airport and checked—looked them over, and OK, and then we could cover them.
Wanda: Mmm. There's probably a lot more rules and regulations than a—when you first started out.
Harmon: Oh, it's terrible anymore.
Wanda: Anything interesting there?
Harmon: Anymore there's so many rules and regulations that the F.A.A. themselves don't know. They gotta go get the book and get it out and read the book on it. You couldn’t possibly remember them all. No way. It's got to be the most complicated thing that ever was, in my book.
Harold: In fact, now I'm miles behind on the regulations. I don't even try to keep up with them. After ten years, the heck with it.
Harmon: I'm sure a lot of it I'm not up on, but I, I go to school every two years ah—to a refresher—three days—24 hours of classroom and get my instructor's rating renewed and that—updates me again, to a certain extent, but I guess nobody can remember all the regs that you've got today.
Harold: Requirements for a license have changed a tremendous amount since we learned to fly.
Wanda: What were the requirements when you first flew?
Harmon: In fact, that only—we had to have ten hours to be able to fly around the patch and that was it.
Harold: You could carry passengers.
Harmon: Yeah. They stood on the ground and watched ya. You took a little written test on the rules and regulations. Ten questions, practically nothing to it, and the—
Harold: Write them out with pencil, and throw it away.
Harmon: The inspector told you whether you passed that or not, and then he stood on the ground and watched ya. And you went out and did some—figure eights or—I took—I went down to the old Bennett Airport to take my flight test and the guy had, he busted the airplane. He landed so hard, it…that it had spread the landing gear, distorted th—some of the tubing on the bottom side—we couldn't fly it anymore. So my instructor said, ""C 'mon, we’ll go to Tri-cities and catch the inspector. He's down there—or he's going there. We'll catch him this afternoon and get you a flight test on another airplane."" Which I'd never flown. A pusher-type airplane, Curtis Pusher. So he checked me out in the airplane and we went down there and he let me go in that airplane, and I flew it around the patch and made a few landings and done some turns around the water tower there, where the railroad track went through and they had a little stop there where they put on water. I turned around that tank and something else and came back and landed and he gave me my license. Next day, I took you for a ride. [laughter]
Harold: That's the only time I ever flew out of that field down there. I flew with him.
Wanda: And that was the Tri-Cities Field—the old Tri-Cities Airport that you’re telling about?
Harold: They didn't call it “Tri-Cities” at that time.
Harmon: It was known as Endicott Airport.
Harold: It was Endicott Airport at that time. It was right along the road—by the—between the Main Street and the railroad tracks on the west side of Endicott.
Harmon: The Endicott owned it by themselves. Johnson City and Binghamton were not in on it. It was just Endicott Airport period. Then when they moved to where they are now, some years later—
Harold: There was no true runway or anything. It was just a field, you know, just a grass field is all.
Harmon: At that time they didn't do any flyin’—they didn't plow the runways or nothing—they just forgot it.
Harold: Most airplanes was open airplanes then, you couldn't fly much in the winter anyway—couldn't stand it. They closed 'em.
Wanda: Have you ever done any chartering flights?
Harmon: Yes. When we were at the airport full time makin' a living, we bought ourselves a nice Stinson. We bought it from Dr. Moore in Endicott. It was almost new. It was $3,000. We did a lot of charter work with that airplane.
Harold: We lost that in the fire.
Wanda: Mmm.
Harmon: Yeah, we failed to say that in nineteen fifty—five? Coulda been right—we burned out over here.
Harold: Four.
Harmon: Fifty-four. We burned out over here and lost—practically everything we had. We had no insurance.
Harold: Labor Day weekend.
Harmon: We don't know actually what caused the fire, but there was a man there working on his air lane and he started it somehow. He never would say and we never made him. Smoking or with a, not covering a light bulb. So we started up again, with one little airplane, built it up again to where I had three airplanes and did—a lot of students then but it got too heavy for me with my job. And I wasn't about to quit a pretty good job and try to make a livin' flyin' again. Not off that airport anyway, so—gradually sold them off to one.
Wanda: This airport, after it started in 1923, it was—there was a lot of activity here, wasn't there?
Harmon: Yes. As I remember it being a kid coming up here, at times when they had the—like the Ford Air Show and the fly-ins, there was a lot of activity there. And they did a lot of charter work with those old airplanes out of here. I've heard Mr. Haskell, who is long deceased, tell about it. And they were actually good pilots in those days. They had some pretty good airplanes, too. Some of the business men of the area, of Chenango Bridge and Port Crane, put the money in the field and a—do you remember the names?
Harold: Macomber was one of them.
Wanda: Yeah, Theodore Macomber.
Harmon: And there was another one—
Harold: There was a fellow by the name of Rowe, R-O-W-E. Carl Rowe.
Harmon: He was manager of the airport.
Harold: He run the—he was the instigator of it, really.
Harmon: And there was a man from Sanitaria Springs who had a lot of money, a lumber dealer.
Wanda: Cushman, was it?
Harmon: I believe so. Something like that. If it wasn't his name, it was something like it. Used to hear Mr. Haskell—
Harold: I don't remember that one.
Harmon: —tell us about him, tell his name.
Harold: Do you remember Myron Baird?
Harmon: Yeah.
Wanda: Well what were some of the other activities that you remember about—any special stories you want to tell about it?
Harold: You didn't get about Ed Link's flying signs on there, probably.
Wanda: No. Let's do that. You said he had a—designed a—an advertising sign that—
Harold: A—he'd a—dreamed it up and made, on a high-wing airplane he made a low wing out of square frames, about 8 or 9 or 10 of 'em. Each one would make a letter. And he used a paper roller out of his player piano. He was in the player piano business, his father was, Link pianos they made. He had the holes in that paper set up so that it would make a sign light up any letters that he wanted on it. He'd fly around at night and it would light up. I remember he had a contract with Spaulding's. He had enough letters to make the word SPAULDING across it. He'd light up SPAULDING, when it would go off he'd light up CAKE, go off and he'd light up CRULLERS, and go off. And he’d fly low over the city, see? And he took contracts in Cortland and Syracuse, and Philadelphia, and all around the country. I don't know if he had one for New York or not. But he had three of those airplanes fixed up that way at different times. That's what he was doin' for, for an income.
Wanda: Is that right?
Harold: The piano business was pretty bad. They gradually closed it up, but then he dreamed up the Link trainer which was half a player piano too. He invented that. Had the bellows that they used out of player pianos. Some bellows that moved different things—he had 'em to push the trainers around. That's what moved them around. He used a vacuum pump with suction and pressure to push them trainers.
Harmon: When I learned to fly with Link he still had the piano factory down on Water Street and in this factory he had a room set up where he had ground school. And two of the trainers that he'd built. And they looked a little bit like an airplane. They had wings on 'em and a little fuselage, tail assembly. All worked, and before we soloed out we had to have time in those trainers. And I had so much on the instrument trainer, so much on the—we called it the “bump” trainer. You'd get in and turn it on. It would sit there for a second or two and then it would dive off one way and you had to correct, and on the wall he had a light. And on the nose of the trainer was a—tatting [sic]—what would you call it?
Harold: Gun sight. A gun sight.
Harmon: Yeah, like a gun sight, or a ring. And you'd look through that ring at that light and keep it in the light. And it would duck off sideways and you'd control it and bring it back and this was how you—it helped you to control an airplane after you got in the air.
Harold: You were fightin' rough air to keep this thing on the target.
Wanda: Well was it essentially the same feeling that you had in a plane?
Harmon: A little bit. Yes. It helped. It…it did.
Harold: The nose went up or down and the wings went up or down. It rocked both ways on both axles. And turned also—three axles.
Harmon: But it was from the pianos that he designed this. And this—like Harold said—later on was the C-3 'blue box' as the military called it, and they built a tremendous amount of 'em for all the countries in the world used them, that were in the War.
Harold: They put a hood over the thing so you couldn't see out, with instruments in it. Simulated instruments.
Harmon: I'm pretty sure, certain it was before World War II that Ed Link and his wife went to Japan and the Japs bought some of them.
Harold: Yeah, they bought two or three of them. Herb Chamberlain went over there.
Wanda: Might have had a pretty good market over there.
Harold: It's just hearsay, but they said Herb Chamberlain went over there and the Japs had taken one of them trainers completely apart—every piece out of it, and they couldn't get it back together again. He went over there and worked on it to get it, to get to work again.
Wanda: We could have lost the War. Did he make some of those early trainers in Cortland, did you say?
Harmon: Yes. He sort of got disenchanted I think, with the city of Binghamton. They gave him a rough time, this area did. Mobil Oil was one of them. He wouldn't buy Mobil no how, for many, many years, because they gave him a rough time. I guess he owed them some money, couldn't pay it and they wouldn't go along with him. But anyway he left here, went to Cortland and was up there several years. He left this area while I was learning to fly and I followed him to Cortland and drove up there and flew his airplane for two or three years in completing what education I got from Link's school. And a—while there he progressed rapidly as we moved into World War Il and made many many trainers there and probably got his first financial footing there. Got really started there. Then—
Harold: He moved back down here on the corner of Gaines and Front Street.
Wanda: Gaines?
Harold: Yeah, on the corner of Gaines St. and Front St. He had that factory in there and that was about—just before the War and they had a big contract. That Casey Jones in New York was involved in it. Sold them a military contract and they were instrument trainers. They were all instrument trainers, nothing else. They made a lot of improvements. They had a fellow by the name of Lokrantz. Gunnie Lokrantz was an electronics wizard and he was from I.B.M., but Link hired him and he had a lot to do with it. I used to go down there nights. I was a sign painter and I lettered their crates for them. Ship them all over the world. He had me put the letters on the crates by hand, you know, to send them out. They had big wood boxes, like piano boxes you know? Big ones with parts of the trainer in 'em.
Harmon: That was the old Red Dot cigar factory on the corner.
Wanda: Corner of Gaines and Front.
Harmon: There's a bar and grill or something in now—now Front St. is off—you couldn't go that way. He moved from there over in—I guess it was the Hubbard, Eldridge and Miller furniture factory. Over on the Brandywine dump. It was built where the dump was or after the dump was in there. It used to go down through the hollow there across the creek and over to that factory. And it was a large flat brick building and he moved into that from Gaines St. and then from there he moved on up to the old—truck factory down here. Larrabee Truck in Hillcrest.
Wanda: Oh, that's where Larrabee Truck was.
Harold: I remember when they built Larrabee trucks there. I remember seein' 'em. They weren't much good, but they built quite a lot of them.
Harmon: Well. We say they weren't much good, but for their day, they were…they—
Harold: They had a chain drive on the rear wheel, some of 'em did. Chains—like a bicycle chain only a big one—on the side, you know? Sprockets on 'em.
Gwenn [Mrs. Harmon Johnson]: Isn't that one sitting down here on the Brandywine?
Harmon: No, that's a Lynn. That's a crawler-type truck. It has crawlers on the back and a—wheels in front. Lynn Tractor of Morris.
Harold: World War II vintage, or something like that.
Harmon: Lynn Tractor built quite a few of those in World War II and then they stopped.
Wanda: Well then, to get back to this airport, have you covered just about everything on activities that went on around here? Do you remember any of the show pilots or stunt pilots, and that sort of thing? Can you speak about the Waco—that was Waco Taperwing?
Harold: That Taperwing? Cy Bittner was traveling around the country with that one to all the air shows.
Harmon: He was the airline’s pilot—or airmail pilot. Airlines weren't flying yet. He was the airmail pilot and he worked out of Albany. And on his time off he used to go around the country to the air shows doing aerobatics and he had this airplane all fixed up with chrome wires and real fancy. He was an expert pilot. He was—finished himself off long ago.
Harold: There's some more of them pilots used to come here. I can't remember their names. I remember that one—with Harold Johnson with the Tri-motor Ford, that I saw perform in Syracuse, but—
Wanda: Did you say something about Roscoe Turner—being here?
Harmon: Yes. Back prior to our being over at the airport and I was up here on a bicycle, I guess—I was not old enough to even fly yet—they had the Ford Air Tour went across the nation. And it stopped at Chenango Bridge Airport. And it's possible at that time it was called the Binghamton Airport—
Harold: Yeah, it was.
Harmon: —because there was no airport at Bennett Airport or Tri-Cities either, this was it. It was the first airport around here. And a, Roscoe Turner was in the group flying a Gee-Bee. All of their airplanes were designed to fly out of small airports. Today our airport is awfully small. For the airports, or airplanes that are built, built today, our airport is too small, for most of them. They need concrete runways and a lot of it.
Wanda: Yeah. How long are these runways now?
Harmon: Twenty-one fifty is our longest runway.
Wanda: Mmhmm. That's the East-West.
Harmon: Yeah.
Harold: You can't do much nowadays with less than Three-thousand or Thirty-five hundred. Minimum, ya know. That's what Tri-Cities is: Three-thousand. 3000.
Wanda: There's no way to expand here any more is there, either?
Harmon: No. It costs a lot of money. Unless you get Federal money or Federal help, it's pretty near impossible to run an airport today. Many, many little airports around the country are going by the wayside. They can't survive. Taxes are so high on the land and a—they get no help from anybody. It's open to the public but they don't want to put one dime in it, unless it's owned by the public. If it was a—a community-owned airport, like the—if Chenango Bridge or the town owned it, then you could get Federal aid.
Wanda: Yeah.
Harmon: But we can't have—get one dime. And, uh, now that we don't operate it commercially…why, it's almost impossible to make it run. My buildings are in bad shape. My equipment is old and I'm gettin' old.
Harold: Boy, how prices have changed on—like aviation gas.
Wanda: Oh, yeah?
Harold: Boy, we used to buy a barrel for what you can buy five gallons for now.
Wanda: Is that right?
Harold: Well, not quite that bad, but—
Wanda: The gasoline itself has changed a lot, probably, too.
Harold: Yeah. We used to buy an aviation-grade fuel. It came in steel, fifty-gallon barrels from Atlantic.
Harmon: About $10.00 a barrel.
Harold: $10.00 - $11.00 a barrel for 55 gallons. And it was very good gas, wasn't it?
Harmon: It was.
Harold: Never any water—I can't think what octane it was. Seems like it was 75, or something like that.
Harmon: It was low.
Harold: It was nothing like nowadays, but a, you could put your hand in it, take it out, it would dry it up white, right quick. Very volatile. It would evaporate fast, you know? Well we'd get it in fifty-gallon drums, and pour it through a chamois with a funnel into the airplane.
Wanda: Yeah.
Harold: Chance.
Harmon: Gasoline today I'm getting 87 cents over here and I'm under some of the other airports around. I guess I'm about 5 cents a gallon under.
Harold: Sure. I'm sure down around New York it would bring you a dollar a gallon for fuel.
Harmon: Today it's pretty close to that.
Wanda: Well, I'm trying to think what we haven't covered by now.
Harold: I remember that guy at Atlantic. He, he was the one—Ziegler was his name or something like that?
Harmon: Yeah?
Harold: He'd order up two or three barrels of gas for us. They'd keep sending it up by truck and he'd set 'em off, ya know. The old big steel barrels. They were galvanized, rounded barrels. They were not like these you see now, that are straight sides, you know. They used to be rounded like a—they were galvanized, they were heavy barrels. But they were a gasoline barrel. I remember being up in Canada with a Sea-Bee and having to go get me one of them with a station wagon and bring it in—hundreds of miles. Back in—
Wanda: Is that right?
Harold: —for gasoline for a Sea-Bee, you know.
Harmon: A good four place airplane today, equipped as it should be, minimum I'd call a good airplane about fifty-thousand. If you've really got the money you can go up—better than a hundred in a little four place airplane. So it's just got outta hand as far as the average man who is concerned to buy his airplane to fly unless it's business, something like that. And that's what the people that are doing most of the flying, I think, in buying airplanes today are small business or business people, because—they write that airplane off.
Wanda: There's—there's not the fun for young people, either, to go into it.
Harmon: No. No.
Harold: So many restrictions in flying now. You gotta have radio gear. You can't even go into Broome County without a radio, you know?
Wanda: Is that a fact?
Harold: You can't get to New York or Washington or Chicago any more without a lot of radio gear.
Wanda: When did you first start getting into the radio a—requirements? When did you—what kind of radio equipment did you—
Harold: World War II, they got some of it.
Wanda: Mm-hm.
Harold: And I was teaching instrument flying on Army and Air Force programs, and the radio was the old-fashioned, low frequency radio. They had a, a radio beam and you, you made instrument approaches and everything with it. That's what I was teaching, you know. After the War they came out with the new UHF, or VHF it was at first. The OMNI which is very popular yet today. There's a lot of big improvements in it, but. That static created—the old ones, when you had a thunder shower your radio went out, ya know. It was real crazy 'cause the static would just drive it right out if you had a thunder shower.
Harmon: A little trainer today, just coming out new by Piper and it looks like it was going to be pretty popular, two-place, one hundred and eight horsepower, low-wing, canopy top, nice visibility out of it, comfortable airplane to fly in—the minimum is $20,000.00.
Harold: Just a two-place.
Harmon: That's just two-place. And it's a very small airplane. Isn't fast. It isn't an airplane that you would buy to go somewhere with, it's strictly a training airplane. Or for someone to fly on Sunday or something if you want to go for a little ride around the airport. But to get up into a good four-place family airplane, fifty grand—about the cheapest.
Harold: In about 1954—ah—G.A.F. got a new Bonanza. It cost what—eleven or twelve thousand?
Harmon: Twelve thousand.
Harold: And it was a beautiful airplane. I flew it four hundred hours, something, for them. I remember a trip to Los Angeles and back with it, but that airplane, today, would be at least fifty-thousand, wouldn't it?
Harmon: Uh-uh. It's over a hundred. That airplane today is a hundred and nine thousand fully equipped. I've been reading about it recently.
Harold: It was listed like—twelve—thirteen thousand or something when they bought it. It was brand new, they got it from up there to Rochester from a dealer.
Harmon: So this is what's happened to the aviation industry.
Harold: It's priced itself off the market.
Wanda: Yeah, for a smaller operator like you are, you're just not going to be able to survive.
Harold: You can't do it. You, you can't—have a hundred-thousand dollar airplane and rent it out.
Wanda: Yeah. Just like everything else, it's getting too big.
Harmon: You’ve gotta be big business today to—to make a go and we have an example of that. A fellow in Endicott at Tri-Cities Airport was an engineer in IBM Owego. Got interested in flying, got all the licenses and so on. He left—got a leave of absence for the year from IBM. He got money to back him, they built a big hangar at Tri-Cities Airport, he's got a—is a Cessna dealer today. He's doing real well, but he deals in big airplanes. He sells to corporations around. I don't know how he does it, but he—he sold a twin-engine airplane to someone in Washington, D.C.—a brand new one, a 410-Cessna, which runs $300,000.
Harold: He's making it in sales, not the operation.
Harmon: Right. He's not making it on the operating, strictly sales. He's a salesman, he's got people working for him and somehow he sells airplanes.
Harold: An outfit in Reading there, did that and did real well. They—two brothers and I used to know 'em.
Wanda: You—you a—rent space in your hangar now?
Harmon: Yes. I have ten airplanes on the field, counting my own, and this is how it keeps running.
Wanda: Yeah.
Harmon: If it wasn't for the hangar rent and the little sale of gasoline and so on it would fold up, and Haskell's would plant corn there.
Wanda: Yeah.
Harmon: I have to give Haskell's, of course, more than half of what I take in and I—what's left over, it's pretty hard to make the thing run on that. I have to maintain the buildings and a they don't touch it.
Wanda: Mmm. The overhead and all that is your responsibility. Well, I would hate terribly to see the Chenango Bridge Airport go out of business. It's been a landmark for a long time.
Harmon: It's been here a long time, and ah—
Harold: Sooner or later it's bound to happen.
Harmon: Its days are numbered, I'm sure. As we know, Haskell's gave up the retail milk business this year. OK, how long they'll stay at the wholesale, let's call it, that they're in now, no one knows. Ah. They get pretty discouraged and I'm sure all farmers do and have over the years, as anybody else in business does, but a—who knows how long it lasts? Maybe I’ll give up before they do. I don't know. I get pretty exasperated, too, trying to run the place and—
Harold: You don't make any money on it and it's foolish to be tied up to it.
Harmon: We do an awful lot of work for nothing, you know, for that thing.
Gwenn: Find time to go fishing spring and fall.
Wanda: Right. But go by plane and enjoy that part of it anyway. Well, I want to thank you.
Harold: You and Charlie don't go on fishing trips, do you?
Wanda: Not much anymore but I—we're just about of time here.
Harold: I just brought some pictures over to show Harm.
Wanda: I want to thank you very much, and for your hospitality, and I hope we can maybe do this again.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mr. James S. McAvoy
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 1 February 1978
James: I think we could pull that curtain down.
Susan: No, that's fine. Mr. McAvoy could you tell us something about your early recollections of your childhood—something about your parents?
James: Well Mother and Father lived together with six children and they're all—two of us is all that's left. I'm the second oldest one and I have a sister. She's alive yet she is 80, she lives in Binghamton. She is 80 years old. The rest of them has all passed away. My mother—my father he was 93 when he died. My mother was 90.
Susan: What kind of work did your father do?
James: Eh?
Susan: What kind of work?
James: Ah he a well a when we were young we used to run a hotel. We run a hotel over in Four Corners for 30-40 years then after that time Prohibition that shut the hotel up so we lived on the farm there for a while and when he got some kind of work he came down here. I stayed on the farm there for a while and I lost all my dairy in the TB test. I said the TB test. My wife was sick quite a little bit that was the girls’ job so my wife she was sick an awful lot she always was such a great worker. She worked too hard on the farm so she was at Sayre Hospital, so she was up there I came up here and got a job. When she got her out we lived on the farm for about a month and I got a house up here and we moved up here that was ‘48 I think.
Susan: How much schooling did you have as a youngster?
James: How many? I had a 5 girls.
Susan: No, no, schooling—school?
James: Oh I never had too much school. We only had a country school about the ninth grade. We never got too far in school we never had money enough to go to college so of course them days the colleges were so far away. They wasn't like they are today so, we ain’t got too much education don't think that. We got away with it in the world of course we made a lot of mistakes along as everybody else as long as the graduated people does but a I often missed it but a—so then after we got up here they was better schools up there so I had five daughters and there is two of them graduated down from Meshoppen High School. The other three graduated from Johnson City High School. A—So they well was—I have one daughter who lives up in Hillcrest and I have another daughter who lives over in Endwell and then I have a daughter who lives over on Crisfield in Vestal and then I have one daughter who lives in Meshoppin, PA.
Susan: Well, can you tell me something about some of your jobs that you had?
James: Ah I—used to be a foreman on the road for a Tillion coal contractor company. I done that for about 3 years. I was Assistant Foreman. I wasn't a big hot shot but I was over all the grading work and all that kind of stuff and they were leaving town then didn't have no jobs so I didn't want to leave home to go with them because they only had about 6 months work on a job or somethin’. So then I come up here and I got a job with Felters and I worked 20 years there.
Susan: What kind of work did you do there?
James: Well, I ran a machine. I operated a carding machine.
Susan: What did they make? I knew of the Felter Co, but E-J's made shoes.
James: They made felt—felt—made all kinds of felt—made, oh, I couldn't tell you all the kinds, at that time there were 25 or 30 different kinds of felt. They made felt for the government, made felt for ink pads and anything you want they made it for shoes felt and all that stuff. They were a nice place to work for. The work wasn't hard. It was steady work. Dusty but otherwise twas a nice job to work and they were a nice company to work for so after I got through there they moved out of town when I quit. I was sixty nine years old when I—when they moved out of town, so I—well I done a little painting around, carpentering and I got tired of that and I quit and I didn't do anything ever since. Then my wife got sick and she had a stroke so we stayed home and took care of her for quite a while.
Susan: Can you recall of any of the big changes that have happened here?
James: That's right. Yeah.
Susan: —in the area since you—
James: That's true. Yeah. That of course is a lot of changes in life since we were born.
Susan: Were the trolley cars here when you first came here to—was it Lestershire or had it changed to Johnson City?
James: It was Johnson City. Yeah—yeah I used often wonder when I was a young kid I'd often wonder I'd like to go to Lestershire—ha ha ha—but when I got there and I found out it was altogether a different place—ha ha ha. Used to hear people at home out in our country about the doom down here a lot of them worked at the shoe factory they’d be telling about Lestershire and next thing we knew it was about Johnson City. Ha ha ha yeah—yeah, so I don't know.
Susan: What about some of the buildings I mean can you recall when you first came here—a what it was like?
James: Oh there was a lot of business when we first come here and was a lot of places that started business entirely. You could go most anyplace and get a job then. There was the Robinson Lumber Co. and there was the big Spool & Bobbin, the foundry over where the Philadelphia sales is and another factory right down there in Endwell—a—err—Johnson City Heel & Last ah there is a lot of them here that's gone out of business since I come here. Yeah, you could go out most anytime.
Susan: Were there any—a—important events like big fires or things that you recall when you were younger?
James: Oh well not up around here that I know of, of course no not really. Of course down in our country Pennsylvania there used to be they lumber that country over, you know, then somebody started a fire clean the brush ha ha cleared the timber off and they were big fires but there were always fires barns and houses burning one thing or another but the country there was never as big fires as you have up here you know.
Susan: We've been trying to gather information from people that have worked in the cigar factories that were here at one time.
James: The cigar factory fire—well that was before I came up here.
Susan: Oh it was.
James: That's the time it burned up all them girls but that was a few years before I moved up here.
Susan: I see.
James: Yeah. But my girls they all come up here and they all went to work they got jobs and finally all got married so I'm working now. I have one daughter she lives in Massachusetts I don't know something else what you know what happened around here.
Susan: Well is there anything you can tell us about your parents? When they were growing up or any of their customs? What were your people? What background were they?
James: What? What?
Susan: What background were they?
James: Oh they I don’t—
Susan: Well you knew that there were a lot of Polish and Russians here.
James: Oh they were just common ordinary people you know the ah—yeah—my mother and grandfather, grandmother my grandfather, Carter, he was about 94 years old when he died.
Susan: But was he born in this country?
James: He was born in a—New York State. Yeah. He was born up here someplace up here. My grandmother was born down in Auburn, Pennsylvania. Her name was Farley and—and like anything else we're scattered all over the country. What do you do live here in Binghamton?
Susan: I—I was born in Binghamton and I was brought up in Johnson City. My family is from here.
James: Yeah, well my wife she was born in Binghamton—err Pennsylvania too.
Susan: Well the McAvoys are quite—quite a well known name in this community.
James: Oh yes.
Susan: Don’t you have a some of your relatives?
James: Cousins of these McAvoys up here Tom, the judge.
Susan: The judge. When I first heard the name I said, “McAvoy, well you must know quite a few people.”
James: Yeah. Oh well I don’t know we were never too close together we were always good friends back and forth but you know yet my grandfather used to all I know is what he told me. He said there were six of them, and their parents died when they were young and they were scattered all over the country. Some of then New York, some of them in Scranton and I don't know where he was and I never knew too much about them because he'd never tell ya too much. He was grown up an orphan of some kind then he went west for quite a while when he went out on that gold hunt you know but I guess he never got too much gold.
Susan: Your grandfather did or your father did?
James: Yeah, well he was past eighty when he passed away. Yeah—yep.
Susan: What—what do you think about the changes? What do you think about the changes from a—a the radio when it first came and now television?
James: Do you like television? Well, I think I'll tell ya some that’s all right some that they've gone a little too far with. I do for a fact.
Susan: But you have lived to see a lot of changes.
James: But not when we were kids—ah we never had television, never radio. I helped build the first telephone line ever to come in our country. There used to be 52 on one line.
Susan: Fifty-two, that's interesting.
James: Yeah—ha ha yeah.
Susan: How about when you first started working for Felters? Can you remember what you earned?
James: Yeah, I started in at 80¢ an hour when I started in but I got through I was getting $1.30.
Susan: $1.30.
James: Yeah, but I was just as well off at the 80¢ as I was with the $1.30 because everything wasn't so high it didn't cost us any more to live at that than when we were getting $1.30 because everything went up so in prices and everything. Yeah.
Susan: Can you recall some of the things you did as a young man for entertainment socially?
James: Does what?
Susan: Can you recall what you did as a young man? I mean from the standpoint of fun, recreation?
James: Oh well we used to winter times—we of course you may think it’s funny but we used to there used to be a lot of quilting bees, tying comforter and lot of us get together if you had a quilting bee we'd tie your quilt and then we played checkers, played cards, a lot of dances. They was we had just good times as they have today at least we didn't know any better—ha. But today we didn't have no way you never got so far away from home because about all we had is a horse and wagon 8 and 10 miles was our limit today they don't mind three or four hundred miles with a car—yeah—we all got along. We was never found any fault. Used to have a lot of nice ice cream socials, oyster suppers, dances and all of that.
Susan: Did you ever go to those barn raising affairs?
James: Oh God, yes. Oh sure.
Susan: —to help one another.
James: We had that right along. Yeah. Neighbor build a barn and everybody turned out and helped him. Yeah—there ain't no more of that anymore. Now it's all done mechanically. Yeah, yet I can remember when they used to go to the woods with a broad ax and cut the frames right out in the woods. The old fellows put them together and they'd go together too.
Susan: And they lasted a long time.
James: Yeah, oh God, last a long time. Well if they used hemlock or pine they'd last for years. Hemlock or hardwood didn't last so long because the worm eat if you didn't keep the roof on it and keep it dry. Yeah most of us built—Our country there was a lot of hemlock and pine. We used that.
Susan: Well, Mr. McAvoy it's been nice talking with you.
James, Well I'm glad I talked to you too.
Susan: It's a lovely day, after all that snow we had.
James: Yeah. Talk to Lena there she's got a better record yeah.
Susan: I will, thank you very much. This is Susan Dobandi interviewer and I have been talking with James J. McAvoy who lives at 15 Park St., Johnson City, NY. The date is Feb 1st, 1978.
",,,,"26:49 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with James J. McAvoy",,,,1978-02-01,,"Broome County Oral History Project","McAvoy, James J. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Hotels -- Employees -- Interviews; Prohibition; Johnson City (N.Y.); Faatz Brush and Felting Works Company",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/169b93a13acfb6c2614fdb5b0479f52f.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/779dda40ed49b734fd4b4656afba48b4.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc034bd966109045fc4e93eeeecd2d4e.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4ff7410d120898b150a0efb7c009f43a.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2024544b20f69a4074961c1465b2e953.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/32bca2695874ffa68173b8405874dca6.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/661bef1d011e45666744dbf9f5ddca89.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5eae80d29661fd3854689d9b832eec74.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f3b5cbc9d84d966b035a5c8d14e158cc.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/addca401e9f29ed469e6cac9400cf83f.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 537,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/537,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"33:56 Minutes ; 11:52 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with John Sedlak ",,"Sedlak, John ; Politylo, Nettie",,"audio/mp3 ","Sedlak, John -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Johnson, George F. (George Francis), 1857-1948; Life insurance agents -- Interviews; Shoes; Italians; Russians; Polish ","John Sedlak discusses his upbringing in Endicott as one of seven children of Czechoslovakian immigrants, his work for Endicott Johnson stores as a shoe clerk, where he learned to understand Italian, Russian, and Polish. He tells of his work for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, including working with immigrants. He compares benefits of Endicott Johnson workers and IBM workers before WWII, and emphasizes the charitable work of George F. Johnson and the Endicott Johnson Corporation. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-02-03,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 53A ; Recording 53B ",,"Politylo, Nettie","Sedlak, John",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: John Sedlak
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Date of Interview: 3 February 1978
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to John Sedlak of O'Day Drive, Endicott, New York on Feb. 3, 1978. John, will you tell us about your life and experiences in the community?
John: Well, to begin with I'm the first generation in this country, my folks having come from Czechoslovakia about 1907 and I was born on Oak Hill Avenue and delivered by a midwife, one of seven children with the exception of one, all of us were delivered by midwives—ive of us are living—two brothers died shortly after birth. On my folks when they came to this country they did not come from Czechoslovakia, it was known then, as Austria-Hungary. As a result, they both spoke and wrote Hungarian as well as Slovak. And many times during our youth when they didn't want us kids to know what they are talking about—they would speak Hungarian. They even sang in Hungarian, that he's—I used to remember some of them but I can't say them now because I can't remember them. But, I believe my first recollection I have as a youth, I lived on Oak Hill Avenue up to a age of twelve—here our next door neighbors were Italian. They came on the same boats as the rest of the foreign people those days and yet, our parents, even though they were different nationalities we would have a good relationship with the Italian people by sign language if nothing else or with a few words of English that we learned at work and we had good relationships with these foreign neighbors who, when I say foreign neighbors, we were foreigners, too, or our parents were. And I recall, as a kid, Endicott Johnson was mainstay of this community, they were the biggest, the best and you thought nothing of, rather, you thought, not of going to work somewheres else, your ship was sighted towards gonna work for Endicott Johnson, unless you were going to be a professional person which was a rare thing so—we—ah—ah see what I want to say ah. I just want to recollect that the great benefactor, that the Mr. George F. Johnson, was because, as a youngster it—we were benefited with sleds, wagons, parks, and as I recall every school that went up in the community the Endicott Johnson Corporation or George F. Johnson himself was grant maybe about half the payments for school which reduced the tax for all the people in the community. Christmas time he gave shoes to all the school kids and it didn't make any difference where your parents worked he got a pair of shoes free. Great humanitarian! And occasionally maybe you ought to stop that thing.
Nettie: Take your time—relax—we'll just keep it going.
John: Well, no, I'm relaxed—the only thing I'm just trying to think what I should inject in your machine and it is picking up our conversation. (Laughing). I was just gonna say that I would recall the honesty of the working people. I have a good example of my own. One day my mother wanted to wash my clothes, I was then about 10 years old, I had picked up a couple of combs at the dime store which I didn't pay for. To make a long story short, my father said, ""Take your pants off and give them to your mother to take them to scrub them on a scrub board at that time.” I took these combs out of my pocket and he saw them and asked me, ""Where did you get them?"" I had to tell him—I stole them. Well, he told me to change my clothes and he took me all the way down Oak Hill Ave, stood in front of dime store and he said, ""Now, you go in and put them in—put them back,” and that's what I had to do. Now that was the greatest lesson of ""not stealing"" that I ever had because it put me in good stead because all my life after that I never had to worry about a job if—I—-handle a lots of money. I wasn't tempted to walk off with any of it because—it just didn't—he put that lesson so clearly to me—that your name meant so much—poverty isn’t that bad—as long as you had a place to sleep and you had enough to eat. I don't care what you ate, you can get by in this world, get by with soup every day of the week. You don't have to have steak, potatoes—so that rubbed off on me so deeply that I am now 66 and I never forgot that incident and haven't touched anything since. I don't mean to throw stones on anybody else—but I certainly used that as a comparison that you can get by—by working and saving and the things of life which you really need first, the other pleasures come when you have the money—if don't have ‘em—don't worry ‘em but enjoy your neighborhood, your friends close by. You don't have to travel the world over—in other words to think you're missing something, if you don't go to Spain, France or something—someplace like that. If you can, fine, like to go and got the money—go—really—but what I'm just saying—the best thing in the world, as far as I can see is to make friends in your immediate neighborhood, your community and enjoy them. And I wanted to mention something else, and we moved on the farm about 1923 because of my mother's health but that didn't work out too well. It was too far for my father to travel to work—Endicott Johnson so we moved back to Endicott on North Street, this time, from there I developed to adulthood.
Nettie: Is this about the time you were entering into the insurance business, John?
John: No, no I did not enter into insurance business until I worked for about 8 years with Endicott Johnson as a shoe clerk. I started on Washington Ave transfering to Johnson City for 2 years and from there I was transferred to a new store, which opened up on Odell Ave… They needed someone who could speak the Slav languages. Well I didn't like to take the job in the first place because actually there was a reduction in pay—at least they told me there wasn't gonna be—finally it turned out it was and I stood with it—but for five years but after I got there the work turned out to be very, very good, very interesting. The people would speak Slav or they understood me, anyway if they were Russian, or Polish, we would get by. But the greatest thing I can remember from that, that experience, rather, working in that shoe store was mostly this—that I had an Italian lady who recently had come from Italy, I say recently, she may’ve been here a year or so she had been in tie shoe store numerous times and after time she would ask for me and she would always speak in Italian. The manager was Italian but she didn't want him, I guess because of his forceful sales methods, his forceful way of selling a shoe. She didn't like it—she always, when she came in the door—she would tell me in Italian that she wanted me—I can even repeat that—""Beaj ju va"" [sic]—and that was a strange relationship because I would talk to her—I knew how to say colors, like I could ask her if she wanted black, brown or white shoe. I'd sit her down, measure her feet and I'd even tell her the price in Italian and I got so, I was, that much I can get by with and she appreciated that much and we got along very well. And the reason I brought up this incident is the fact you show some compassion towards people and they responded in kind and it didn't make any difference what your nationality was as far she was concerned, made no difference to me that she was Italian. I just felt wonderful with that experience, here's a person in that store that speaks as well as good Italian as she could but she preferred me, of a Slav descent and she knew it. Though, that was one of the experiences I had in life there and as time went along I wanted to leave the store and go to the Washington Avenue store which I had started in many, many years back. There was a vacancy there—and it would pay me almost 50% more in pay and I got the OK from the district manager but then he referred me to the vice president of the company, Lawrence Merle and when I sat down and talked with him he said, ""We built the North Side Store for North Side people—if I take you from there and put you down on Washington Avenue you’re going to pull some of that trade down there and we can't do that."" I got up on my haunches about then and said, ""Mr. Merle, most companies pay a person more money because they can speak more than one language and you are penalizing me."" He says, ""No, no, no."" By that time I got up and in spite of this man's vice presidency in that corporation and overall command of all the stores in United States, I FELT PROUD BECAUSE I could get up and say what I thought. About a year later, I left the store because I figured that wasn't the proper treatment. When I gave my notice about a week before I was to have my final days, I got a phone call asking me if I would take the manager's job in Cleveland, Ohio which I refused because I had given Metropolitan a—my OK that I was coming to work for them.
And even, there, I was hired because I could speak more than one language—they needed an agent who could speak other than English, In other words, the Slav language. And there again, it was in the same area as the shoe store. I got wound up with what they used to call it a debit in those days—a debit meant you had accounts, that were weekly, monthly, quarterly, semi or yearly and you collected mostly your money from the people on scheduled calls. I found out when I got the debit it wasn't as much Slav as I thought. I had almost as much Italian accounts but there again those same people were going to the shoe store, and they knew me, and I had a reasonable amount of success in the business of selling, regardless of what nationality there were. As I mentioned before you had we were not in full Depression at that time that, and this was in 1938, and still the country was not in a rosy condition either. We did have to collect some accounts every week, some people paid 2-3 dollars every week, those were big accounts. You try to equate that today, 2 - 3 dollars a week would mean about 20 dollars a week at least and those were pretty good size accounts, when you analyze them on today's market.
Some of the experiences there were—oh—let's see I had something in mind, Nettie—and I can't think of what I was going to mention—Oh—I recall—yes—I had a man who I always had a hard time collecting from him—seldom home and drank a lot and lots of times I let his account go—after stopping there—I would let it go until the last day and I would go 2 or 3 times, see if I could catch him home. This one night I decided, well, I've had it, I was going home. I had stopped previously there, he lived on the third floor. Before I came to—on my return trip home which was almost 9 o'clock that night I've had a glass of wine at the last place I collected, and just one glass.
I didn't know how to drink too much anyway, I came up to this fellow and he was giving me a hard time and I guess he could smell I had something to drink. We weren't supposed to drink. But this was the case, as I said, where the man—always giving me a rough time and here I was stopping, figuring I was going home, it was on my route home so I stopped because I could see a light on the third floor. I went up, I guess he paid me but don't remember that either except I do recall the next meeting, Friday of that week, we generally have meetings every Friday, the manager got up and he mentioned without mentioning names, he said, “One of you was reported to have been drinking this week. And I don't like that and this man didn't like it.” So I thought, ""Ho, I bet they're talking about me."" So when the meeting did break up, I did go into the manager·'s office and asked him if it was me. I gave him the circumstances. He says, ""Johnny, we all drink but he says we never drink while you work.” He did tell me it was me. He didn't want to mention the man's name and I told him if it's this man and I told him the circumstances and what type of man that man was. We shook hands and that was it, the boss realized he just had a crank situation on his hands and told me to disregard it, he wasn't going to to make no report to the home office on that, so that's the way that situation ended.
Now as far as selling the foreign born, most of them came to this country not knowing what insurance was. They didn't have no such things in Europe in those days. If a person passed away there, the village carpenter in the smaller communities, made a pine box and they were buried. However they paid for in those years—in those countries, I don't know. So we had to instill into the minds of people that just came into this country that you had a little different process here—you had the undertaker, you had the priest to pay or the minister as the case may be, because in many European countries the priest or the ministers were paid by the state so they didn't have any of that outside expense. Here, they had to uphold their own churches, and as a result you had to pay the priest, as I said again, the minister so the convincing—was sometimes hard, sometimes these people came were little above average, they had to be, they were pioneers, see—they must’ve been brave, leaving their mother country and come these thousand of miles away, not knowing the language, customs. Just picture ourselves, if we had to do this—even in our country transplant ourselves from here to the west coast, and all our other relations are here. It takes bit of forethought and courage to go out and do it—especially if you are close to your family and that was so in those days, our people came to this country they were close to their mothers and fathers and brothers—and they came from common stock and nobody was actually professional—not as we see the many foreign people come to this foreign country today—have a education, they are professional—it is easier—welcome better and they have a generally—they know there gonna to travel, they try to get books, that they can at least translate and get by until they make up their minds if they will go into further studies and be more proficient in the language.
They can at least get by translating or reading the—other book—where our parents, with a limited educations—over there. My father told me he was—he went to school ‘til he was twelve years old and that was it. Here's this man that knew two languages at that time and he went up to the third or fourth grade. So, sometimes I used to, as a young man, take a hold they didn't know nothing. I look back they knew lot more. They knew the land, they knew how to work the land, they knew seasons, they knew what the seasons represented—by that, I mean—ah—if it was gonna be cold—they knew it by looking at things that natures provided—for them—in other words—they had a first hand course of their parents who, that would teach ‘em—all about these things—like for example, grafting a tree—I seen my father doing that as a kid. Here I am a high school graduate, years of experience in this community, I don't know how to graft a tree. That's what I mean. They knew how to put in a good garden—and why it did grow or not grow—they could tell you, without a formal education from nobody—so most of it came from their parents from their experience they were shown and they did. My father, when he came to this country, most people that left school and wanted to be for example, to be a tailor, they would go—work as an apprentice with a tailor. And so many years afterward—before he was granted some sort of a written certificate, I presume—someday he could come out and be a tailor on his own, either be hired in the industries or set up his own shop. That's the way they began life and some of ‘em prospered by it—especially those who came to this country which ways. We knew so little because so little was written about our country.
Nettie: John, what kind of policies did they have at first?
John: Oh—did digress away from the insurance business.
Nettie: Oh—that's quite all right.
John: When I began, actually most people paid insurance either by the week or by the month—most people had a hard time if you wrote them a policy to pay 6 or 7 dollars every three months—with the size of their families being large they felt it would be better if you wrote it by the week. But as things improved, you started writing more policies by the month—otherwards—I said, I began in 1938 and I recall that I had a break in there in 1944—I was drafted into military service and even in 1944 the economy had improved and you were writing more insurance that people were paying by the month—but again—that might not run over 5-6-7 dollars a month and it wasn't until after World War II when you started to write people 8-9-10 dollar premium a month plus what they already had—and these plans of insurance vary—most of our people did like to have a policy where they paid all their life. Even though, life policy was less expensive and they were having more protection for their dollar. They didn't feel they should be paying when they couldn't work any more, for example, So they would prefer a 20 payment life. We sell more of that—but the younger generation got better educated—some from service—realizing that—eh—why not be insured for $10,000 instead of let's say, 5 or 6 thousand under 20 payment for practically the same premium. So the people—as you educated people to understand insurance better and telling them—well, look if you take a whole life and can't pay it all your life that doesn't mean you are going to lose that money—say you come to 65 and you want to stop paying and you want to take what they call a reduced paid up insurance policy for over $6000 or whatever the case exact may be, without a rate book I'm just guessing here, but anyway they could see that instead of paying $15 a month for a $10,000—20 payment life they could pay maybe $9.00 for a whole life for the same protection. My company will pay the same whether you pay $9 or $15 but the only advantage was after 20 years you didn't have pay anymore, but again it took $15 instead of $9 out of your pocket. And, if you had a larger family and had other obligations, which most people did, something would have to give, unless income in 70 went up and in those years there wasn't that steady income, that steady increase in wages, as some of the industries are getting today. There was no such thing as every year you got a increase, you could get a decrease for a lack of work. The situation as you see today.
Nettie: John, may I interrupt at this time? When you are talking about increases maybe you can tell us the difference between Endicott Johnson and IBM—when it came to wages at that period.
John: Well, back in—when I graduated from High School in 1930—you been better off going to work for Endicott Johnson because Endicott Johnson had a full medical program and IBM or at that time known as ITR, did not. They made about the same wages excepting in the tanneries where you made bigger money than working in ITR and ITR as I said, had no medical program, as I recall, but EJ or Endicott Johnson did—you went to a hospital you didn't have to worry about a nickel, went to see their doctors, got a prescription filled, had your eyes checked, the only thing I can remember after after your getting your eyes checked—you had to pay for your glasses if you could afford it. If you couldn't, even there, Endicott Johnson would pick up the tab. I remember instances, where people got hurt in car accidents on the highway and Endicott Johnson would send a plane to pick up these people and bring them back to the local hospital at no expense to these people. I seen people at instances where they needed special medical care that was not furnished locally, again—Endicott Johnson would furnish the plane to the patient as well as a family member to fly ‘em to a destination and when were through with their treatments bring them back. And all this and even the living expense of these people was absorbed by Endicott Johnson. However, after World War II IBM became a different ball game—they started to really prosper—you can't say today that they don't have good benefits—they have tops—Endicott Johnson, of course, is also a good corporation today to work for. Does that cover it?
Nettie: John, how about going back to the Slovak people? I think it would be interesting if you told us some of the traditions—I think—
John: Oh—well—see—what we can—like Easter?
Nettie: Yes that would be interesting.
John: Well—of course Easters back in our day—when we were kids, especially bring some recollections of the Lent season. First of all, we did not eat meat—generally on two days of the week—Wednesdays and Fridays at all and that was all during the 40 days then during the—course—also those who were of age were generally from 18-60 were supposed to fast—and that is one full meat meal a day and the other just light lunches you might say but that was just what many other religions did too—the Orthodox probably even stricter than the Roman Catholics in their upholding of their Lent. When Easter came there is a custom we want to bring out is that was I would get the pussywillows and my father would braid these pussywillows in a form of a short switch and it was a custom that on Easter, although they tell me in Czechoslovakia it was on Monday, where the men run around and they sort of whip the women, this is sort of reminiscent when Christ being whipped by the Jews before being crucified. It was done in a playful manner when you whipped the girls and the following day on Tuesday, was the girls’ day·to do the same. And this naturally, being a youngster, you go out to see your relatives and close friends, you switch the women folk even some times, kids your age or some little older—naturally would run from you because they didn't want to be beaten but sometimes you get a little too carried away and hit too hard, and the man of the house would naturally give you an egg or an orange or money—a few pennies but—was fun—was fun—because we didn't have much money if we got a few cents at the end of to go to a movie we thought we did pretty good. Matter of fact, this custom we did every year—I had an Italian friend who was very close to us—and he kept asking us if he could go along, finally, one Easter we took him out, then we got him a whip, and, my dad a few extras and he went with us too. (Laughing).
I can still remember the boy's name, I don't know if you want names—but Tony Fanara—neighbor practically to Helen's there—and I can still recall that. Then another custom was at Christmas time—which we would go out—oh—before I go on Christmas. I just want to mention one thing about the young adults—we sort of switched from that switch—that's going to be confusing now on tape but instead of the kobachis we used to call it—we started to using water—we used—seltzer bottles. So I recall we didn't have too many cases where you could do that but we had, I remember Margaret Gondek's folds—she was up to date on these things—wouldn't want us to miss her house so we get up early Sunday morning—Easter morning—and she'd leave the house open so we'd walk in and we knew where the girl's bedroom was already—so we'd go up daybreak and pull the covers and swish the seltzer bottle—
Nettie: Good ol’ days.
John: Yeah—yeah—but somebody had a wet bed—you call that good ol' days—but maybe they didn't like it—they say they didn't like it—but again—I'm sure but what would you do with a wet bed? Take days to dry out.
Nettie: That was youth!
John: But that was the fun of youth—yeah—we enjoyed doing that. Next day the fellow—generally the girls took it over the following day—which as I said—the custom was Sunday and Monday—in Europe it was Monday and Tuesday. No… But other than that—oh—church dances when they used to have festivals—like in October—they would have a harvest festival then they would dance in native costume—native dress costumes of the Czechoslovakia. They were different costumes different, depending of what part of Czechoslovakia you came from, seems as though every town had its own style of costumes—kroys—I think they called them. I even got away from term insurance—I never mentioned that yet—
Nettie: Do you want to mention it at this time?
John: Well, you’re gonna have this interlaced with costumes and other—so you will have to adjust.
Nettie: That's all right—you want to mention this term insurance—it's all right.
John: You asked a question about the term insurance as I mentioned a—a—on previous discussion—term insurance is insurance that has no cash value at any time—as long as you pay for it—you have the coverage once you cease paying on it, the coverage ceases and that's not immediately because if you paid the current month you don't pay until the next premium, you have 30 days or 31 days—after that all coverage ceases because you didn't pay the premium. Now very few people at the beginning would buy this type of insurance but back in—oh—I think following World War II it became more prevalent because all these servicemen became acquainted with term insurance because that's what we bought as servicemen from the government, term insurance—and that of course, the government said when you got out you can convert to other forms of insurance—which today you can buy almost any type of insurance you want—even with the government you have been in service, so you can have your policies paid up as at a given time—you know—whole life policies which would build up cash reserves.
Now that's mainly the difference—much of your—again—another idea of having to understand term insurance, is insurance most industries carry for their employees—is term insurance—builds up no cash reserves. Those who die along the way—their families would benefit by that and those who live have very little coverage in their older years of their life.
Nettie: Now some of these insurances you had—was there a high rate of lapsing?
John: No, no—because there again—that depended on the agent and how he explained things and how forceful he was to oversell ‘em—and that's how many agents were overzealous with—talk a man into a large amount than he can pay for. So the man may struggle for with one year—or or maybe a 6 month—and the first thing you know lapsing—his policy and couldn't afford it so I was always watchful of that—because I thought—look—I might better sell this man a smaller contract now with the hopes things, if things would improve for him or he can handle this he would not hedge against buying additional coverage as he got a little older. You might have to pay more—but again he knew what he could handle—in other words it's one step at a time. If you use that philosophy I think you found—I found at least that they did better with their insurance program. I didn't have—I never had a high lapse ratio like some of the agents. I was never the top salesman as some of these men were but amount of lapse. I often wondered how they were rated that high but they—I guess—
Nettie: John, you told me quite a few interesting things but do you still have any more recollections toward our interview?
John: Well, I really don't think so—I'm not here to—you can't bring EJ back to life like the way it was—we've seen the community replaced by IBM instead of Endicott Johnson—I believed I mentioned in previous discussion all Endicott Johnson did before and if we could have another benefactor like—Endicott—like George F. Johnson—this community—and every community in the United States—it would be wonderful. This man didn't die forgotten—at least in my mind—I've always thought of this man and I always have prayed for this man. He was just a beautiful man—he's a man more people should try to copy.
Nettie: Ok—John—thank you for your interview and it was very interesting.
",,,,"33:56 Minutes ; 11:52 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with John Sedlak",,,,1978-02-03,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Sedlak, John -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Johnson, George F. (George Francis), 1857-1948; Life insurance agents -- Interviews; Shoes; Italians; Russians; Polish",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9a7a3311ca53d1829560f06244869ac9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f838ed0dd036a8c0d2d624ee0b4bfec.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/11759a9e64465e88f6b1f5a8b9ac3348.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ec7d3d371fa73aa33e8feaa9b861595b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/09e607c16dc878294c42d85f227bdd9c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6b39d94bde3e15a3e0a43af02967348c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/524ccad29b3fa90a2d1727a157c603e9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/916e078938cdd7f23b24e05b3cfa07c8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/eeb50922ad4590a37c00150340679dbe.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/712533f23889081d585972fb74228fc2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f339431de0225f58dbc7b065e6b17dd6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/56b170aa4052982f9e9279cb672db62e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7fa1bf81a7977e92f41cc2973ccf1484.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/09ccb2368d5326f3a7506d3036e0d657.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9547303755b8a97e7e52948538fc1f06.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ac71fba13a655148aa3be7458bc792c1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6825a2880d9ca08eb713c291f1586cfe.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/82b5db85c6d451d9bdde69d93c51b156.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ecffea8c948fb532c30e604d51e07ee4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d11b6aeb713984ecaefbcb898827a028.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bd119431ff04aa9bb893691a2b2c167a.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e3e47b652b3d98a6958ee96ab92083d8.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 1150,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1150,,,,,,,,,,2017-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"33:47 minutes; 7:19 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Leo J. Payne ",,"Payne, Leo J. ; O'Neil, Dan ",,,,"Leo Payne speaks of his early childhood growing up in Binghamton and later working as a bookkeeper and stenographer. He owned his own trucking company in Binghamton in the early twentieth century. He discusses his inter-racial marriage and the death of his first wife in childbirth because there were no hospitals in Sidney, N.Y. where his wife had gone into labor. He was active in a Masonic Lodge and in his church, Trinity M.F. Zion, the latter for which he assisted in securing a new church building. He also discusses discrimination and discriminatory business practices in the area at the time, including an anecdote about Duke Ellington being refused a place to stay when he came to Binghamton to perform. He speaks about his experiences with the Ku Klux Klan and the Mafia in Binghamton. At the time of the interview, Payne was 89 years old and still running his trucking business.",,,"1978-02-10 ","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,"Recording 76A ; Recording 76B",,"Dan O'Neil","Leo J. Payne",,"BROOME COUNTY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interview with: Leo J. Payne Interviewer: Dan O’Neil Date of Interview: 10 February 1978 Dan: Mr. Payne, will you please tell me about your life and working experiences in the community starting with the early days, including the place of birth, education and family life with emphasis on your working experiences? Mr. Payne: Well I, ah, of course was born in Towanda, Pennsylvania, ah, the family moved to Binghamton when I was two years old and ah, we, ah, my father went to work for Cyrus Clapp on ah Chenango Street–19 Chenango Street as a coachman and ah when I was five years old he ah went into trucking business for himself with a cart wagon and ah two horses and he moved to 25 Sherman Place. I was ah just as a small boy when ah he took me up to watch the ah ah the Courthouse burn down. We ah I saw that, that was quite a place and was up on quite a hill at that time. Now let’s see ah I ah I went to ah Carroll Street School until I was around 8 years old and then to ah Washington Street School–now the ah police station, where the Police Station used to be and ah when I was 12 years old, I went to to ah Central High School (Clock Chimes) and ah got my education there. After that I went to Riley's Business School that was oh can't think the name of that little street and ah from there I ah got a position as a Bookkeeper and Stenographer with ah Harry Doherty, who runs one of the first garages in Binghamton selling the Pierce Arrows and the White Steamers–not the Pierce Arrows, the Cadillacs and the Stanley Steamers. Ah business got bad and ah I was ah laid off. I went back to help my father then shovel coal–he used to have a contract with them and the Binghamton Cold Storage company. After about six months, a Professor Riley got me a position as a Bookkeeper and Stenographer at, ah, G.A. Glark Company in Sidney, N.Y. I stayed there until my–I worked too much inside–my Doctor told me I’d have to get outdoors or get a coffin–so the only thing I know what to do, I sold my house in Sidney and came down and bought out ah Rich ah Millard–he had that ah ah trucking business that people put him in business but he didn't want no business and so finally they ah put it up for sale but that was at the same time–so I came down and looked. He had two trucks & ah made a payment on them–I bought them. I went back to ah Sydney to get the ah ah additional loan so I could pay for it as my boss, my boss G.A. Clark's brother was President of the Sidney National Bank. Well I ah got along very good. After a couple years ah Mr. Clark came down, wanted to buy my trucks and ah have me come back to work and then my wife–I got married in between and ah at ah Cynthia Gifford, whose father was President of the ah People’s Trust Company in Sidney–he disowned her for you know ah marrying a colored man and ah we got, we got along very good. We came down to Binghamton and got married at the Centenary Church. I can remember at that time my people were living at 173 Henry Street in Binghamton. Had a, well, I got along very good by industrious working–I done a lot of work myself and I went around and worked up a very good business and finally connected with ah the Kroehler Manufacturing Company in 1930 and ah drawing furniture for them to different towns and ah I worked for them until around 1970, I think, in 1968 or 70 when I an gave ah a tractor and trailer one each to my two brothers, who were working for me and ah told them that they could go for their own as a gypsy as they had no rights–Interstate rights see, which I did have and I continued in a small way ah with a couple of moving vans doing moving jobs around ah near Binghamton as possible and in Binghamton and still doing it. Now that’s about all I ah had two children–one of my sons, Clark Payne, and we named him after my ah earlier boss in Sidney and ah he died here a short time ago and my daughter Doris is still with me and ah looking after me. I've had several heart attacks and ah two years ago I had two heart plants and ah, what you call it, pacemakers. Dan: Pacemakers. Mr. Payne: Put in and at the present time I'm feeling quite well. Dan: That’s fine. Mr. Payne: Now that’s about– Dan: How old are you, Mr. Payne? Mr. Payne: I’m 80–89 years old that 1st of February. Dan: Great, great, great. Now what year did you buy the Richard Millard Company? Mr. Payne: 1917. Dan: 1917 and when did you get married–what year? Mr. Payne: Oh dear, let’s see, 1913. Dan: 1913 Mr. Payne: Well I was married twice. Dan: I see. Mr. Payne: I was married in 1910 the first time. My wife died of childbirth. Dan: Oh. Mr. Payne: And they had ah close the operation. Dan: I see, did the baby die too? Mr. Payne: They died before. Dan: Oh. Mr. Payne: So they had to force the operation but they didn’t have no hospitals there in Sidney and they just ah a couple of Doctors and ah they ah charged an operation with car batteries like–yeah they were car batteries some way but ah she only lived two days afterwards. Dan: I see, I see. Mr. Payne: But the second time, I was married in 1913. Dan: In 1913 the second time and when did your wife die or is she still livine? Mr. Payne (to daughter Doris): Oh when did your Mother die, do you remember? Doris: December 7th ‘69. Dan: December 7th ‘69. Now you mentioned that you were kind of disowned by the family because ah of– Mr. Payne: Of racial– Dan: Of racial discrimination there, yeah. Now did you encounter any racial discrimination here, Mr Payne? Mr. Payne: I, I never ah ah had ah any ah racial ah ah trouble here in Binghamton at all–never. Dan: Never. Mr. Payne: I went any place anybody else could go and was received. Dan: Um hum. Mr. Payne: ‘Cause I always tried to live a life that people would respect me. I joined the Masonic Lodge as soon as I could join and I ah was very ah enthusiastic about Masonic work and I finally ah ah rose up until now I am a Past Grand Master of the State Prince Hall affiliation of Masonic work. Dan: What church do you belong to? Mr. Payne: Trinity M.E. Zion. Dan: OK, do you belong to any clubs there at all? Mr. Payne: What’s that? Dan: Do you belong to any clubs there at all? Mr. Payne: Clubs, no I never joined anything else because I’ve always been very active in my Church work. For 15 years I was Chairman of the ah ah church Board. I ah put the church and an apartment next to it in the ah church’s ah lap without investing a cent. Free and clear–I had to use my head a little. Ah the ah State took over the parsonage for forty ah ah they only offered $450.00 for it. Dan: Is that right? Mr. Payne: Thats when they started clearing out for the playgrounds on ah Sherman Place. Dan: Uh huh. Mr. Payne: So, being very active in church work, they ah the ah church association here ah heard that I was looking for a parsonage–so the Chairman of the Church Board here called me up said, ""Mr. Payne, I hear you're looking for a parsonage.” I said, ""Yes, but I can't get ahit [sic] for what the ah anything for what they want to allow me for ah my old parsonage because anything I looked at was from 10 to 12 thousand, 12 hundred dollars.” So I says, he says, ""Well how would you like to buy a church and a parsonage?” I says, “I’ll tell you, Reverend, I haven’t got five cents to invest. We are $1100.00 in the hole.” He says, ""Well, could you have a couple of your board members meet me at the church on the corner of Lydia & Oak at 2 o'clock?"" Yes sir, so I got ‘em, cause I was very active then and ah I looked the place over and ah he said, ""Now ah IBM ah not IBM, GAF wants to ah buy the corner and ah put ah ah watering place there and ah Kradjian wants it to tear down and put ah ah development there, he said, but we rather have it for a church–Now it'll have to go up for a bid–could you make me a bid?"" I said, ""Well listen Rev, the best I could do would he $20,000.00.” He says, ""Well I’ll take your bid in–how could you pay for it?” I said, ""Cash."" He says ""What? I thought you was broke.” I am so I says, ""I'll take care of it. I'll get in touch with you just within the next couple days.” So I called my head Minister up and I told him I says ""You go see the Priest at ah St. Mary’s on ah Hawley and Fayette Street and tell him ‘cause he had asked me once before for a price on my church which was in very bad shape and he offered me $10,000.00 for it."" Well I said 10 then 4, all right. I called Mrs. Titchner up–she was the development ah Superintendent here at that time–and I says, “Mrs. Titchner, I've got a proposition–it’s only good for a week. I've got to have at least $8,000.00 for the parsonage."" [She says,] “Oh, Mr. Payne, I could never get that much.” I said, ""Well I'm going to tell you what I've got in mind. I said I have ah offered the Church to the ah St. Mary’s ah Catholic Church for $15,000.00. I've given them a week’s, ah, option, I said, otherwise I'm gonna rebuild it"" and ah (Clock chimes) she said, ""Well I'm going to tell you what I'll do, Mr. Payne. I, I, I appreciate what you're doing, I'll call the State and see what I can do for you. I'll tell them the situation.” About three days afterwards, she called back and said, ""OK, you can have the $8,000.00""--so I got that $8,000.00. The, the Priest saw my Minister and told him he’d take it, so I got $15,000.00–so I got $23,000.00, see, without a dime invested no place and ah I don't know, it was transacted through ah the First City National Bank and I met there with them. Ah the President of the Bank at that time said, ""I don't know I ah Mr. Payne, you' re marvelous, I ah wish we had a Chairman that could work it like you worked it."" (Laughter) So I took the $20,000.00 ah ah to them to for the church, I mean to pay for it–I had $3000.00 left, I paid the $1100.00 off that ah we owed and ah cause the ceiling was falling down and ah I had that fixed and that’s what I owed and then I took a couple thousand dollars they ah they ah–the furnace was bad so I put a new furnace in or used one that was in very good shape I bought from Fred Kennedy–at that time he was in the ah ah used building ah business and ah used the rest of the money for decorating the inside and what we could on the outside painting he says and they didn't cost them a dime. (Laughter) Dan: Ah, now what you said, you went to Central High School–did you graduate from ah Central High School? Mr. Payne: I ah ah quit ah ah in the ah eleventh grade to go to ah cause my family was in a little bad shape to go to they had enough money to send me to Riley's Business College and so I, I didn't quite finish ah for that and went to Riley's Business College. Riley's son and I had been friends ever since we was small kids and ah he told me I've ah had enough education for what he can give me so I don't need no more and he'll see that I get a break cause there was a lot of prejudices you know at that time in Binghamton. Dan: Lot of what, lot of what? Mr. Payne: Prejudices. Dan: Oh, prejudices. Mr. Payne: Yeah, I can remember that ah Ralph Hackett was in charge of ah the ah G.F. Pavilion and ah he ah I don't know, I wanted to raise money for the Lodge, see if we could buy a place eventually, so I started ah ah giving some dances around and I went down to see Ralph cause we had been friends ah otherwise and ah I asked him if we could rent it. He says, ""Oh, this is strictly ah ah company ah company place of amusement and it’s not for rent to anybody.” I says, “Well you tell ah George F. that I want it at least twice a year–once in the spring and once in the fall for a Masonic dance and I want to improve the colored people in Binghamton as much as possible,"" and ah so anyhow ah he said to tell Ralph to let me have it once or twice a year– once in the spring and once in the fall, so Ralph and I got to be quite friends. So they was ah bringing name bands here for their dances and ah so ah–oh, I'm trying to think of his name now, oh he was a good friend of mine. He just died. Oh colored ah band Leader–tops–what was his name? Oh dear, he was a composer as well as ah ah– Dan: Wouldn’t be Garner there, would it? Mr. Payne: What? Dan: Would it be Garner, Garner? Mr. Payne: No–Duke Ellington. Dan: Duke Ellington. Mr. Payne: Yeah, he came here. They wouldn't let him, they had 20 people. They wouldn't let his ah ah his group stay overnight in any hotel here. Dan: What year was this? Mr. Payne: Oh God, I don't quite remember the year, but anyhow, let’s see, Ralph called me up and wanted to know if I could find places for them to stay overnight among my friends because you know I you know because I was in top shape and had very good friends. I finally got 'em enough to room so I went back down–he come here on a bus with his band and ah I told him what I had done. He says, ""Well listen, ah ah Mr. Payne, I'm I’m very thankful for what vou've done, but these white people in Binghamton do so and so, which I can't ever repeat.” Dan: In other words, in other words, there was discrimination. Mr. Payne: ""From now on I'm going to play this engagement and I'm leaving afterwards and they'll get on their knees to get me back here again and they'll do it too.” And they really did and finally ah after many years they got him to come back. Dan: You know the Ku Klux Klan was very active at one time here in this city, wasn't it? Mr. Payne: All right - I had that, at that time when the Ku Klux Klan was active here in Binghamton, had a Convention here, I can't remember the date. It was in the 20s. Ah I was, ah, backed on Centenary Street with my truck, loading some furniture, and it blocked off the street and ah a guy come by with a pickup truck and wanted me to move my truck out of the street londside. Well I told him I couldn't do it because we was getting ready to put a piano in and ah he'd have to wait. Well I ain't waiting but he did ah went up on the sidewalk on the other side and he clipped the front of ah my truck. So I jumped out there boy and I let him have one. So he says, ""We got an organization going to take care of you."" I says, “Oh you have, well I've got an organization that says you can’t."" I was very proud of proud to belong–I didn't belong of of to be a friend of the Mafia, that was here. That was ah at that time I had ah a associate business of welding on Collier Street, which was known at that time as Automobile Row and ah this one particular friend there was a liquor ah ah ah bar room on each side of where I was ah ah I had my welding shop and ah I this is where I met this one of the heads of the Mafia, who became a very good friend of mine. I told him about what this guy said ‘cause I know they was quite strong from talking with them before because there was a lot of Italian people down around that way, see. He says, ''All right, they're having ah ah big time here next year, Ku Klux Klan, I'm going with you and we're going up and see that parade and I want to tell them something anyhow."" So we went up and stood on the corner of Chenango and Henry. All right, this ah parade come down and this big shot stopped right in front of us–so right away quick my pal says, ""Listen you so and so, this is my pal Leo Payne, I heard that you was ah looking for him and here he is. If you touch one hair of his head, I blow your head off."" And then he told me if I, I wanted him at that time, anybody put out of the way, for $125 .00 I could have it done and nobody would be the wiser who done it. Dan: Now you ah did you encounter any other prejudices as far as the white people in the community? Mr. Payne: Never had any trouble at all. Dan: No, no trouble at all. You're an old established family here, Mr. Payne. Mr. Payne: What? Dan: You’re an old established family here–respected family.. Mr. Payne: Yes. Dan: You are. Now you said your dad was in business in the piano moving business before you? Mr. Payne: He was in the moving business. Dan: Moving business. Mr. Payne: Moved anything, cleaning out cellars and moving. Dan: How long was he in business? Mr. Payne: Oh dear, uh uh until he died. Dan: Until he died–what year would that be approximately? Mr. Payne: I think, let’s see, he's been dead about 16 years. Dan: lb years. Mr. Payne: Yeah, and my mother died right afterwards–the next year. Dan: About 1961 then, huh? Mr. Payne: Yes. Dan: Uh huh, 62. Mr. Payne: They're buried in ah Chenango Valley Cemetery. So when my wife died, I bought five lots up there for my immediate family which I still own. Put a stone up there for both my wife and myself. Dan: Now you worked from 1917, when you started in business, right up until 67–did you say 1967 - 68? Mr. Payne: I quit work ah about ah oh about 4 years ago, myself that is, doing any labor. Dan: Oh you did. Did you that soon, huh? Just 4 years ago. Mr. Payne: Yes that’s all. Dan: Oh. Mr. Payne: I was good right up ‘til then. Dan: Who's carrying on your business now, Mr. Payne? Mr. Payne: Well I am. Dan: Oh, are you? Mr. Payne: Sure, I just answer the phone or have my daughter, if I can't hear–she answers for me. Dan: Uh huh. Mr. Payne: And I have a couple friends of mine that worked with me when I was ah ah driving myself years and years ago. Dan: Now what was the pay scale when you started out down in back in 1917. How much were you making - how much were you making yourself back in 1917? Mr. Payne: Ah, I was getting top pay $20.00. nan: $20.00 a week? Mr. Payne: Yeah. Dan: That’s out of your business? Mr. Payne: No, I ah ah that’s what I got up in Sidney. Dan : Oh, in Sidney. Mr. Payne: At the end. Dan: I see, but when you got in business for yourself? Mr. Payne: I just, whatever I made, I made and that’s it. Dan: Uh huh. Mr. Payne: And I improved my business as much as I could until finally I got tired and figured that I had enough. (Clock Chimes). I had a home up on South Washington Street which–when I, I got the first ah heart attack–everything was turned over to my daughter who has taken over since then. Dan: Yeah, how long have you lived here, sir? Mr. Payne: 4 years. Dan: 4 years Mr. Payne: About 4 years, maybe 5. Dan : Uh huh. Mr. Payne: It’s all paid for. Dan: Now ah this Henry Doherty that you spoke of–how do you spell his last name? Mr. Payne: D-O-H-E-R-T-Y.. Dan: Now you remember the Courthouse when it burned down? Mr. Payne: Yes. Dan: That was quite a few years ago, because that’s rebuilt. Mr. Payne: I think around, ah, I was about 5 years old. 1904, I think. Dan: 1904 is when it was built, I think, wasn't it or was it? Mr. Payne: Well it was just ahead. I was only just around about 4 or 5 years old. Dan: 4 or 5 years old. Mr. Payne: Yeah, because I know my Father, ah, we were living on Sherman Place only just below there a little ways. I seen so many changes. Dan: And you say you started out in the Cyrus Clapp– Mr. Payne: Yes, working for Cyrus Clapp. Dan: Did this, was the–you worked for Cyrus Clapp? Mr. Payne: That’s right–he sold out where the Press Building is. Dan: I see. Mr. Payne: And that’s where I lived in right behind there in the carriage house when we first moved here. Dan: Is that right? Mr. Payne: Yes, upstairs over the carriage. Dan: Uh huh. Mr. Payne: Where they kept the horses. Dan: You're 89 years old now, so it'd be 87 years ago that you lived in back. Mr. Payne: That’s right. Dan: Before the Press Building was built. Mr. Payne: Oh yes, yeah, there was quite a knoll there, yes. Dan: Uh huh. Mr. Payne: Which has all been distributed, I mean taken away, you know. Tommy, I think it was Tommy lived next door–he was rich too. I remember Conklin used to live on the corner of Exchange and Hawley Street and that was up on a hill where the YMCA is now and us kids used to ah get barrel staves and ah make skis (Laughter) and ride down there in the wintertime. Dan: So you were down in Sherman Place, ah, was where your business started or where you moved to–Sherman Place at one time. Mr. Payne: When I come? Dan: Yeah. Mr. Payne: My father was living on Exchange Street at the time. Dan: Yeah Mr. Payne: And I come down and, ah, lived with him for a few months when I moved over on ah ah 35 DeRussey Street. Dan: Is that where you started in business on DeRussey Street? Mr. Payne: That’s right. Dan: Uh huh. Mr. Payne: 35–I lived upstairs over Sam Katz. Dan: Uh huh, yeah, South Washington Street (to daughter) right right–I can remember when the DeRussey Street bridge went out. Mr. Payne: Oh dear. Dan: Uh huh. Well is there anything else you would like to add, Mr. Payne, before I– Mr. Payne: Well truthfully I can't think of anything of importance. Dan: You're a very successful business man. Very well respected in your community. Mr. Payne: I have been until just the last couple of months. Dan: Uh huh Mr. Payne: I had very bad luck from vandals–poured some water in the crankcase of my truck and it swelted such, the motor, and I had to have a new one put in and ah it cost me $1635.00 to get another motor put in. Dan: Gee. Mr. Payne: And then I burned up my Cadillac. Dan: Gee, everything comes at once. Mr. Payne: Right out here in the yard. Dan: Now when you first started your business, you got a loan from the Bank in Sidney–is that right? Mr. Payne: That’s right. Dan: And then you–how many trucks do you own now? Mr. Payne: l've only got ah the one I'm keeping now–I'm using. Dan: OK well, I certainly thank you very much, Mr. Payne–I'll play this back for you so you can hear how your own voice sounds. ",,,,"33:47 minutes ; 7:19 minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Leo J. Payne",,,,1978-02-10,,,"Payne, Leo -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.)","2017-03-27 ","Sound ","audio/mp3 ","English ","Binghamton University Libraries ","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f0e311fc930b98671ed9b4925b795b96.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/658c9267362880e2e70d674158dd629b.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 492,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/492,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"35:10 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Jeanette Boyd",,"Boyd, Jeanette ; Dobandi, Susan",,audio/mp3,"Boyd, Jeanette -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Social workers -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.) Depressions -- 1929; Endicott Johnson Workers Medical Service; Tuberculosis; Girl Scouts of the United States of America; Boy Scouts of America; Medicaid; Clinics; Johnson, George F. (George Francis), 1857-1948; Castle; Conklin (N.Y.)","Jeanette Boyd talks about her life in Binghamton, NY as an active social worker for the Broome County Humane Society and Welfare Association. She discusses the current welfare system, and the first clinics for ear, nose, heart and tuberculosis. She discusses the ""Castle"" in the Town of Conklin and its purchase by George F. Johnson to be used as a camp for children of tubercular families. She talks about her family's involvement with the Girls Scouts and Boy Scouts organizations.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-02-10,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 6",,"Dobandi, Susan","Boyd, Jeanette",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Jeanette Boyd
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 10 February 1978
Susan: This is Susan Dobandi, interviewer, and I'm talking with Mrs. Jeanette Boyd, who lives at 2 Duffey Court, Binghamton, NY. The date is February 10, 1978. Mrs. Boyd, would you please tell us something about your early beginnings: where you were born, something about your parents, any of your recollections of your childhood?
Jeanette: Well, I was born on Prospect Street in Binghamton in 1906, and ah, my father then was, ah, connected with the Broome County Humane Society and Welfare Association, and I went to Jarvis Street School, which is now closed of course, ah, and Laurel Avenue School and then to Helen Street School, which is now Thomas Jefferson. Graduated from high school in 1924 and—
We took street cars wherever we wanted to go, ah—to get to school I walked across, ah—ah, Glenwood Ave., where the trains would be stalled on the—on the crossings, and I would have to crawl through the trains to get to school on time and, ah, but we made it very nicely. I used to go skating down in Endicott. We had to walk to Main Street for a streetcar and go down to where Union Endicott School is now—we'd go skating and get all wet and come home on the streetcar and then walk home all the way in from Main Street. We had no cars then, and these days children would stay home and watch television rather than do all of that. And ah—
When I graduated in ’24, ah, I went into the Humane Society and worked there for three or four years, and ah, my mother didn't think it was the place for an 18 year old, and I really had a very liberal education. I, ah—I learned much about the birds and the bees and how everything, ah, worked or didn't work, but I survived it, and I'm sure lots of other people would too, but ah, we ah, we housed at that time the Girls Club. Ah, in fact my father started the Girls Club in that building and, ah, bought a building on the same corner for the Boys Club, to house that, and ah, we had clinics in the building. We had the first eye, ear and nose clinic that Dr. Roe had there, and Dr. Bolt, and we had a tuberculosis clinic and a heart clinic, all kinds of clinics in—in that building, and doctors volunteered their time, they were not paid for it, and of course the welfare work was done by my father and with a lot of George F. Johnson's money.
Susan: Give his name now.
Jeanette: Ah, Sam Koerbel, and ah, we also had Children's Court in that building and on the top floor we had a children's detention. He would not put the children in the jail, so we made a jail up on the top floor and had delinquent children up there and we had a colored family, a negro couple who ah—who were the attendants up there and, ah, so that the children did not go into the big jails the way they do now with the adults or anything of this kind. They did not go into courts. They went into just their own small Children's Court and the welfare work, as I say, was done there, the ah—ah, people who—the separated couples, ah, the men had, ah, to come in and pay each week, and then the women would come in and get the checks and so that we could know that they were paying their alimony and the people, their families were not going
hungry and—
Down in the basement George F. Johnson had a—had a clothing bank, and the children came in after school with their sizes that the teachers had written, sizes of clothing, and ah, we would give them coats, underwear, at that time they were wearing long underwear, and they would come in so wet and bedraggled, but we'd fit shoes on them. Then at Christmas time, of course, the school sent in many lists of sizes and we would do them up in bundles and deliver them to the houses. We had an English investigator, a lady, Elizabeth, I don't know what her last—Anderson was her name, Andy, and ah, she would go out and check the families that wanted welfare and, ah, if they were dirty she wouldn't give them one thing. She'd come in storming and she'd say, ""Don't give that family one thing. I gave them some soap powder and some soap. Those kids have got to be cleaned up, the house has got to be cleaned up. I'm going back tomorrow, and if they're clean they can have some food and clothing, otherwise they can't have a thing.”
So, usually they were cleaned up, and I guess from that I say that families who are on welfare may not have much money, but they can be clean and I have not much use for—for dirty people, and I think maybe that Andy was at the bottom of that and, ah—
Susan: I might say they need an Andy now.
Jeanette: They do, oh, she was a little spitfire. She was English and she told those people what they could do and what they couldn't do, and they were scared to death of her.
[Telephone rings].
I, ah—I don't know just exactly what, ah—what, ah, you'd like to, ah, hear. We, ah, in the office we also did dog licenses. We had to go through the, ah—the books once a year and, ah, we had to send the men out. Of course we—we had the dogs under our jurisdiction too, dogs and cats, and my grandfather was dog catcher at one time. In fact the way my father got started in the Humane Society was to become the dog catcher, for the first time way, way back, and ah, he ran away from home when he was eleven years old in Waterville, NY, and ah, made his way to Binghamton and worked in a grocery store here, then became dog catcher and eventually was the Humane Officer here.
[Telephone rings.]
And another thing that might be interesting, ah, George F. Johnson had an office for my father down in the tannery office in Endicott, and out of that he worked welfare in Endicott. Or he would make arrangements for them to come to Binghamton for welfare work, then along in 1923 or ’24, I just don't remember, George F. Johnson had my father buy the Castle on the Conklin Road, and ah, at that time there was a lot of tuberculosis in the welfare families and, ah, July, for instance, they had girls and in August they had boys from these tubercular families, and ah, this was free, of course, and ah, in fact the first time that they had these, ah, little camps, my mother and an aunt had them right in our farmhouse there, where we used to go in the summertime, and ah, turned two or three rooms into dormitories—had the girls, ten or twelve, in July, and boys, and then out of these groups they, ah, had them stay all winter in this castle that they eventually bought, and the garage was made into a school and they had their own school teacher, and ah, there was an underground passage from the Castle to the garage that the children thought was wonderful, and of course the Castle has now been given by George F. Johnson to the Town of Conklin and it is town offices now, used for town parties and that kind of thing, but ah, it had, oh, a great big stove and, ah, of course they had a dining room with a lot of tables in there. It was a real school, and ah, one of the cooks used to bake angel food cakes on the ledge in the furnace and of course the children thought that that was wonderful. She said it was a nice, even heat, and she would put her cake tin right in there on that ledge and, ah, and then the—the, when the children were well and, ah, had been fed and fattened up a little bit, then they went home and the next summer another group would come in, and out of that they would choose the children that needed it the most and then they would stay a year, and this was all with George F. Johnson's money through the Humane Society and, ah, during the Depression. Oh, there, the Humane Society building was an old hotel and it had what used to be a ballroom and, ah, they had soup lines in there and we used to serve the people soup, mostly men as a rule would come, not families but men, and ah, then they—we would cook big—ah, big pots of pork and sauerkraut and, ah, then, of course as I said, they say, ah—they had the Girl Scouts there. They had showers for the girls, some of them never had baths any other time if they didn't take a shower then, and ah, the Humane Society originated, ah, in the City Hall, so I have been very interested in Alice Wales and her committee working to preserve the City Hall, because the policemen were on the first floor and I knew all of them by name when I was along, eight-nine-ten years old, and ah, the Humane Society offices were on the second floor and I used to stay there while my mother went shopping. I'd much prefer playing in that City Hall building so I have felt, ah, very interested in preserving that—that building, ’cause I think it's worth it regardless of the amount of money. I don't know if there is anything else that you'd like to know or not?
Susan: Well, I think it would be interesting to compare how the people felt about receiving help in the old days?
Jeanette: Well, of course they—they felt ashamed at that point to, ah—to have to go on welfare, although many of them had to during the Depression, but the men did work, uh, and were allowed to work even though they were receiving welfare. They were encouraged to work, which they are not, which doesn't happen these days. They don't encourage them to work at all. If they can get something for free, why, that's just great and, ah, but I think people have lost their—their sense of responsibility towards the public, to ah, they would rather go and collect their welfare checks and their food stamps and, ah, they have big cars and televisions, and in those days they were not allowed to drive up to get welfare with a car, neither did they come in taxis. They came on streetcars and they took their clothing home on the streetcars and, ah, they were given Christmas baskets from Volunteers and Salvation Army and the Humane Society, but they cooperated so that there were not duplicates and I—I think they try these days, but ah, not to have duplicates, but I think that the people are so grabby that they will take two or three baskets if it's handed to them, and I know I have taken, ah, families out just recently to buy things for Christmas, and it's amazing that some women are quite conscious of the price and what she buys for 50¢ or 75¢, while another woman, knowing that it's free, will ah, grab the highest price can of coffee off the shelf until I make her put it back. I don't buy that myself, but let’s buy something else instead of buying the best, you know, but they think they should have the best.
Susan: So many of them buy so much junk food and do not cook good nourishing meals for their children.
Jeanette: That's right, that's right. This family that I'm helping now is a family of twelve children. She never bakes her own cakes. She was getting a frozen pie and a frozen cake, and I said, ""That's ridiculous, I don't buy those, they're too expensive. We'll buy a box cake,”—oh no, she wouldn't have anything to do with that, and I said, “Do you have a cake tin?”
“No.” So I said, “Well let’s—let’s buy something cheaper, we'll buy cookies then,” and well, she didn't bake cookies either, and I—I just can't understand this. I—I never went hungry, but I always baked my own cookies and my own cakes and my own pies.
Susan: Well nowadays the popular thing is to go to McDonalds as soon as they get their checks.
Jeanette: Of course, of course.
Susan: Burger King—yes—Kentucky Chicken.
Jeanette: But I just couldn't believe it, that she didn't do any baking with twelve children. I said, “You can bake a cake for 50¢ plus two eggs.”
Susan: Are you still active in—n some form of welfare?
Jeanette: No. I just do—do some through the church.
Susan: Oh, through the church.
Jeanette: We have a used clothing bank there, and we send to four mission churches in the south regularly and help them at Christmastime, but it is also open to people on welfare in Binghamton, so that is, that's the way I became acquainted with this family of twelve children, that they had heard through the grapevine, I suppose, that we had clothing.
Susan: Is she the one you were telling me about the birth control pill?
Jeanette: Yes, yes, and she was quite upset—she wanted clothing too, and I offered her several coats but no, she wanted a short coat. She wanted a pants coat, you know, and I said, “Well, of course this is not a store, we have only, ah, what people bring in to us,” and I offered her some dresses and no, she, she'd rather have blue jeans, so she went away with nothing, and her husband did take some shirts and a coat, but ah, some of the things that I offered her, said, oh well, her children wouldn't like that, and I said, well, if it did keep her warm.
Susan: They' re very choosy.
Jeanette: I think that they should be very happy to have them, but I, they have a car and of course it's the only way that they can get around, I suppose, with twelve children. You do have to buy groceries. They live up on Front Street now, but they've moved four or five times in the two years that I've known them. Now I don't know whether they don't pay their rent or what happened to them. It’s most discouraging when you try to help somebody and, ah, then they—they turn you down with things that would keep them warm, at least.
Susan: They're talking about welfare reform and we certainly need it.
Jeanette: I'd like to sit on that committee, but I'm sure that I won't be asked, ha ha, but I—I do think that, ah—ah, maybe one with gray hair on that might do some good if they could go back to some principles, at least, and not feel that, well, these people have it due them—well, I don't think that they do if they don't work, I—I don't think that work ever hurt anyone, and I think that we should support ourselves as long as we can and as much as we can and, ah, these teenagers that get married and don't have jobs, I—I don’t think that they should be allowed to marry—
Susan: —or live together.
Jeanette: Ha. That's right, that's right, and ah, they go in with these food stamps ahead of me in line, college kids, and ah, I don""t think that's necessary, if ah—if they can't afford to go to college then there are loans, and I'm sure that some of their families, ah, are well to do, and yet the kids come up here and get food stamps, and I—I don't think that's right for our county or state to pay for this kind of thing.
Susan: For out of state students.
Jeanette: That's right, and ah, of course they go around looking like ragamuffins, so maybe that's the way they get their food stamps, but ah—
Susan: I think it's a way of getting a little pocket money.
Jeanette: It's a way of getting something, I'm just not sure what it is, but I—I think it annoys me because these college kids can get a job. They can work in the summertime, my grandchildren do and, ah, but why should they, when they can get food stamps and have it handed to them?
Susan: Is there anything else that you would like to go back over?
Jeanette: Well, I—I really can't think of anything else.
Susan: Oh, they never gave any, ah, cash to the people when in the early days it was just food and clothing?
Jeanette: That's right, we had—we had grocery stores that were available for this kind of thing, and of course they were independent grocery stores then, and food was, or we bought it, wholesale. There were wholesale, well, like Darling & Co., I don't know whether they were, I think they were still in business then, but at least we bought hams and turkeys and all of that kind of thing, wholesale potatoes, wholesale, and ah, then we would make up the baskets ourselves or, I mean at Christmastime, or we would just get an order at a store, and no, the people were not given cash and I don’t give cash to the people who help me—that I am helping. I go with them shopping, and I pay the bill, I—I don't trust them. I'm sorry but I, ha—I just don't. I—I think they would go out and buy beer and cigarettes, all that kind of thing. I don't think that's the way to help people.
Susan: Well, the principle that the system is working under now is that they are trying to teach them how to manage their money, but they do not pay for the things that the money is given to them for.
Jeanette: That's right. That’s right.
Susan: And I would like to see some changes made there.
Jeanette: Yeah. No. They won't, not the people these days.
Susan: The majority of them.
Jeanette: I—I think before, we had a lot of foreigners, a lot of Slavić people over around the first ward, and I know when my husband died I—I sold real estate for a couple of years, and I went up on the hill, ah, back of Glenwood Ave., and there was an old German, I don't think she was German, at any rate she was foreign, and ah, the woman with me introduced me and she said, “I—I think you, ah, probably knew this woman's father, Sam Koerbel.” Oh, then the woman spoke very brokenly and, ah, she said, “Oh, Sam Koerbel, we just couldn't have lived through the Depression without him,” so you see, it was mostly first ward people that, ah, that we helped for some reason or another. We did others, too, but I—I think my memory is, is more of the foreign class that perhaps came over and couldn't get jobs, or couldn't get enough work for their big families, and ah, some of them were E-J workers and if they didn't have the work, why, then of course we helped them out, but ah, we were busy all day long with the people coming to the—to the, ah, windows there and taking their histories, and it would be all through a child's life until they were up to seventeen or eighteen years old. I know a lot of them now that we had on welfare, I see their names and they're in business and they've made names for themselves.
Susan: Made names for themselves, not third and fourth generation welfare—
Jeanette: That's right, that's right.
Susan: —recipients.
Jeanette: Yeah, they were willing to work, and I think, to go back to Andy, maybe her teaching of cleanliness—
Susan: —cleanliness—
Jeanette: You've got to be clean and you've got to help yourself or you don't have any welfare, and I think that just maybe, maybe they were taught the right way, I don't know, and being helped in the clinics and the delinquents. I know one, one in town who is in business now, was definitely a delinquent. He was on parole for, oh, two or three years. He'd come in every week to, ah—to sign in and tell us what he was doing, you know, but he learned his lesson the hard way. Yeah.
Susan: Do you want to comment on the difference in the children in the old days as against the, ah, now generation?
Jeanette: Oh, well, the children were disciplined, and they didn't find fault with their teachers and they didn't talk back to their teachers. If a teacher told you to do something, you did it. You, ah, you didn't question it, and it was the same with your—your parents, of course. The one reason that there was welfare, to talk about discipline, I—I think that the men would get their checks and they would go to the saloon and, ah, down on Glenwood Ave. there was a saloon that my father raided periodically and, ah, he would finally have the women come in, and the men would have to bring their checks in to us and then the women would come in to get them, but ah, the ah, I know my grandmother was helping a family right close to us, and they were Slavić and he was a drunk and didn't have any money for—for food, and my grandmother was so mad she went right down, and he was a little bit of a thing and she just shook him, she just shook him practically off—off the feet, ha ha. She came home laughing about it and she said, “Well, I don't think Pete's going to get drunk right away again because I shook so hard,” and he had been beating up his wife, and you know, I don't know whether it did any good, but I often think about seeing my grandmother shake this man, and you don't do that these days, if you went in and shook anybody and tried to make them behave you'd be taken into court.
Susan: There are too many rights to be—
Jeanette: That's right and that's too bad, that's too bad. I know one night my father had a telephone call around 10 o'clock and they said, “Sam, there is two or three young boys gone up into the cemetery in back of us and they've been trying to get into my house, but I saw them run up in the cemetery,” and my father just casually got out his gun and walked up the road and said, “You fellows come on out, I've got a gun on you,” and they walked out, and you know you wouldn't dare do that these days, you'd get the police force, the FBI, and everybody else out, but he just came down, he called the patrol and they came and got them and took them over to his—his, ah, detention, and the next day he had them in Children's Court. I—I believe they were scared to death of him. “I'm Sam Koerbel, come out, I've got a gun.” Everyone knew him. So they just, ah, they just did it as Sam Koerbel said, and even now my children will say, “Well, I'm sorry that those kids don't have a Sam Koerbel to put them right.” I—I just wish that he was around, I wonder what he'd do. Well, I think he'd put them to work first. I—I don't believe I have anything else.
Susan: Well, I think it's been very enjoyable talking with you. We agree on a good many points, Mrs. Boyd. Thank you very much for the interview.
Jeanette: You’re welcome, you’re welcome.
Susan: Mrs. Boyd, could we go back a little bit and give us a little more information about, ah, after you left your father's office and went on with your own personal life?
Jeanette: Well, I was married in 1927 to a man that I had, ah, grown up with from the sixth grade and, ah, they had been neighbors of ours, and ah, we had two children, ah, Richard and Shirley. Four years apart, and ah, shortly after we were married, six months, we discovered he was a diabetic, so for the thirty-five years that we were married, ah, we battled diabetes, but ah, he was the kind that said, “I've got it and we will not talk about it.” So, we never did, so we just lived with it, and of course we had our two children after that and we lived on Floral Ave. at that time, on the second floor of my father's house. During the Depression, ah, my husband was out of work so we went into the heating contracting business, and ah, we ah, eventually, well, he installed oil burners and stokers at that time, and ah, we eventually through the years had an oil fuel oil delivery service, and I did all of his office work and made all my children's clothes, of course. In those days you didn't go out to the store and buy things, and ah, he finally worked into just industrial work and school work within a hundred miles and, ah, in 1951 my mother sold that house, my father died in 1947 and in ’51 she sold the Floral Ave. house, and we built and we went over on Stone Road on the south side, we built a house and she had her apartment on the second floor, she became an invalid, and my children, ah, graduated from Central High and North High. Dick went on to RPI on a scholarship, and ah, he has been an electrical engineer for Stromberg Carlson in Rochester and, ah, for them went to Denver and worked on some government work and into California and back to Rochester, and then he went in with TRW Systems, and he has six children and he has moved ten times in twenty years and, ah, every time they move I go and babysit, since my husband died fourteen years ago. I go wherever they are and I babysit, and so that I've gotten around the country pretty well, and my daughter, ah, married a electrical engineer in Stromberg, went to Rochester and she still lives there and she has two children, and ah, they both have good jobs now, and he went into the printing business and lost a great deal of money, but we pulled out of there after three or four years, and I’ve—he’s had a sick mother, and I’ve gone up for a week or two at a time and helped take care of her and, ah, we are a very close family. Ah, if I hear of bad weather on the coast we call and if, Dick called me the other morning at a quarter after seven, his time, and of course my first question at that hour of the day is, “What’s wrong? When do you want me?” and ah, so that, ah, he's concerned about us too, and I have done Y.W. work. I was on the board with the, oh, Peg Prentiss, and oh, a lot of the women, you would know if I could name them, for twenty or twenty-five years, ah, on and off the board on all kinds of committees through reorganizations, ah, to conventions. I did Girl Scout work when Shirley was working—I, err, was growing up—I ah, had a Girl Scout troop, she didn't have a leader, so I went to their, ah, training sessions and had thirty-five girls for three or four years while she was growing up, and my husband and father-in-law were in Boy Scouts work, I, they made headdresses, and I had feathers all over my house because the boys would come there and work in the living room and in the kitchen and I, I just wondered if I'd turn into a Boy Scout myself, and of course they all went to Boy Scout and Girl Scout camp. Church work, I've done a little bit of everything in, in church work. I've been an elder and a deaconess in the Presbyterian Church and, ah, when Rick and his wife, ah, were in Rochester, they helped start a Presbyterian Church there in Kenfield and it’s still going, and Horky and I gave them their first Communion set, ah, for the church and ah, oh, I don’t know, we've done so many things and, ah, we did a lot of traveling after our children were grown up. We'd take the month of May and just travel, and then when my husband died I took a course in real estate and sold real estate for two years, but that was a little bit rough for me. I—I couldn't quite manage real estate and I answered an ad—a blind ad, of course, in the Press, and ah, got this job at the Herlihy Trucking Co., and I’ve been there now, well, it will be twelve years in September, and shortly after I was there, about a year after I was there, the only other woman in the office, the bookkeeper and everything, was found dead in bed, so I was sort of thrown into bookkeeping and I am still in it, only two and a half days a week, and I tell them I'm really not needed, but they say, “Who would boss us if you weren't here and who would keep us in line?” So I'm still going.
Susan: At 72.
Jeanette: At 72.
Susan: You're going to be 72.
Jeanette: I will be 72 next week, uh huh.
Susan: Well that's wonderful.
Jeanette: And I drive to Rochester, ah, when I feel like it, winter or summer, and people say, “You drove up?” and ah, when my son was in Virginia I drove down there, it was six hours and I’d just pack up and go. I—it never occurred to me that I couldn’t do it. I'd always done it and it just never occurred to me that I couldn’t do it, and ah, I don't know that there is anything else—my daughter is a busy in church work and she, ah, often says in some of her problems and she’ll write or call up and she'll say, “Well, I pulled a Jeanette Boyd today, I just told them what they were going to do.” (Chuckle.) And so I have a real reputation, I guess, even with the bowlers, ah, we bowl on the grandmothers’ team and, ah, one girl that I—I didn't know that she ever paid any attention to me, and ah, we got up from our coffee break and I said, “All right, let’s get going here, let’s get going,” and she said, “There she goes again on her soap box,” so I—I guess I have a reputation of being a boss, but I—l don't mean to be that way.
Susan: You're a very active person and you can be very, very proud of yourself, Mrs. Boyd.
Jeanette: Well, thank you.
Susan: Thanks again, this gives us a better idea of the kind of person I have been interviewing. Thank you. Bye bye.
",,,,"35:10 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Jeanette Boyd",,,,1978-02-10,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Boyd, Jeanette -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Social workers -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.) Depressions -- 1929; Endicott Johnson Workers Medical Service; Tuberculosis; Girl Scouts of the United States of America; Boy Scouts of America; Medicaid; Clinics; Johnson, George F. (George Francis), 1857-1948; Castle; Conklin (N.Y.)",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/349412b7ff360ba1a3ba03931ea1e67a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65b6822a5cd501108ee155c585cf208c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e6834c013468ecac47a05bf99951e4bf.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/015ebeefc060769b64f6efca4f66b056.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1834ba4b3f3827b5802b37b7fac10028.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b115acd0217059af597166d51f61ae6c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6d8e23521d8106e5201190da48ebe030.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/974740b3cdeb2baeb3248583fa225fd2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d5efaf276e2d1433375935e39b2723c9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/01462c83d0ee02478a6fa2a16deb03e8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/35f40c87efa9d5b75fd72f07a67f9849.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/29322df4b0005f48f9c2df57f78d4fc2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/76b2e68481bff335e365936dbd8b6bb3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d2d0f49a45e0430c4f98e6185aee0872.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4666acd7879beca98fa2641708db2beb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/63eb1a402a84740dbc2badaae5b066db.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/910c7145b52d7949b6acf649e64b1bfe.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1101a953fd5e698e3690c61fd46501f4.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 529,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/529,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"37:47 Minutes ; 15:05 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Barbara Oldwine ",,"Oldwine, Barbara ; O'Neil, Dan",,"audio/mp3 ","Oldwine, Barbara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Fisk University; African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Social workers -- Interviews; Race discrimination; American Association of University Women; Young Women's Christian Association ","Barbara Oldwine talks about her life in Binghamton, NY beginning with her childhood, her education at Fisk University, and her position with the Department of Social Services. She discusses her working experiences, the merger of welfare facilities, and her husband's experience at IBM. She discusses her views on racial discrimination in education and work fields, as well as the discrimination her family was subjected to. She discusses her community activity, such as the Urban League, American Association of University Women, Planned Parenthood and the YWCA. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-03-01,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 45A ; Recording 45B ",,"O'Neil, Dan","Oldwine, Barbara",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Barbara Oldwine
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 1 March 1978
Dan: Barbara, would you tell me something about your life and working experiences in the community starting from the time of birth—OK?
Barbara: I was born in the City of Binghamton at Binghamton General Hospital and the first place that I could call home was 20 Front Street, which was on the corner of Front and Riverside Drive. It would be interesting to know that the old Memorial—the Memorial Bridge that we now know in 1978 was not up then, so in order to get to the west side, you crossed Court Street Bridge. I stayed there as a girl until I moved to 24, pardon me, 41 Broad Avenue, which is in the 12th Ward. My education began at Alexander Hamilton School—kindergarten—it was Miss Manning as the principal. In Junior High I went to West Junior. I there had a half a term at Central and graduated from North High in February, 1941—we had midterm graduations at that time. I left Binghamton then and went to Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee where I earned my Bachelor’s Degree, magna cum laude. My degree was History and English and like many women at that time, I was married to a serviceman who was at many places never dreaming that we would live back in Binghamton. When it was his decision to go to school under the G.l. Bill, we moved back to Binghamton in the house of my parents at 41 Broad Avenue—stayed there until we bought the home on Gaylord Street. Following his education, my husband became associated with IBM. He was the third Black man ever hired by that corporation. My career began with the Department of Social Services ah then known as the Welfare Department. Lounsberry was the Mayor and Mr. Robinson was the Commissioner and our office then was at 71 Collier Street which is now a big City parking ramp in 1978. I worked continuously for the Social Services Department for some 32 years and it was merged with the County under the direction of Mr. Libous and Mr. Crawford. When we talk about what I faced in the community as a member of the group of Black Americans and what minority problems we might have had, it might be interesting to know that one of he first things to happen while I was a Field Worker in the Department of Social Services—an applicant recipient called the agency and decided that they did not wish to be interviewed—to participate in a cash grant—if the interviewer was going to be a Black American. Mr. Robinson informed them that the interviewer was fine, based on ability and they were needed in the program that they must be interviewed, and that ended that confrontation or that problem, handled directly by the Administration. The most difficult time Neil and I faced was a returning couple to the community needing a place to live, having made a decision to first live with parents while he was getting the Degree and Percy Rex was Rector of my church—Trinity Memorial Episcopal—corner of Oak and Main at that time and he appealed to landlords who had been people who owned property that were members of our church, to give an apartment to this young couple—returning G.I. and veteran and his wife and we wouldn’t be strangers because I had been baptized in Trinity Memorial Episcopal Church in infancy and gone to that entire church, to the church school—my husband and I had married there and it had been our first child—it had then been ah born ah baptized there but no one came forward to give us a house and that was rather scarring and very hurting. Our decision then that we would move into the Veterans’ temporary housing, which was on the McArthur Tract and these people will recall was just the old quonset hut—McArthur School is now standing there—but they were operated by the City of Binghamton and although discrimination had first been observed in Veterans' Housing ah the first group of veterans who tried to move into the housing over on the Webster Court area and I think if you would recalled one—the veterans had to pitch a tent on the Courthouse lawn—that man was John Scanks and he too had served in WWII but he had broken the barrier so when Neil and I moved into temporary housing for veterans on McArthur ah Tract, we did not face any problem at that point. Our then goal was to face sufficient money to use the G.I. Bill and get a loan and purchase a home since renting was not possible. Well it wasn’t an easy task to purchase the home—the small down payment that we had at Binghamton Savings—I'm sure the loan people or the people of the accounts there wondered what Cornelius and Barbara Oldwine were doing because we kept drawing $500 out on one day and putting it back on the next. What was happening was we were taking the money in good faith when we had gone with the real estate broker to look at property to try to purchase a modest home and the owner would decide then that even though they were not going to reside in the home themselves, they were going to sell and move away, that their neighbors would not want to have a young Black American couple there and of course at that time we did not have the laws against discrimination on the books of the State of New York and this was exercised several times against Neil and I and I think I have to give credit to a man by the name of Mr. Balin, who was a real estate dealer in the locality who came upon a home which we now still occupy, that was in an Estate and we were able to purchase this modest home at 24 Gaylord Street without any difficulty and we were given the ah G.I. Loan though the Binghamton Savings Bank—Mr. ah Cornelius is the President and we faced no discrimination in getting the loan at that time. An interesting thing happened to us as we became residents of Gaylord Street, 12th Ward Bingahmton—had two small girls then—one 6 and one 4—oldest girl was Eileen, our youngest daughter was Valerie and I went to business and I had a wonderful woman, Mrs. Stringham, as my housekeeper who came each day to assist me with the children and part of her plan was to take our 4 year old at 10 o'clock in the morning—walk and entertain her and let her have fresh air and one of my neighbors across the street had a 4 year old, whose grandmother was the loving, caring person but when Mrs. Stringham would bring Valerie out to play, this other grandmother would take this other 4 year old back in and I thought badly about that because what do 4 year olds know? They probably would have just played dolls and pushed carriages and Mrs. Stringham, who was my trusted housekeeper, ah was really concerned about that because she was a white American who was helping me to care for my children and the neighbors who always took their children in, were also white Americans—but you know that soon passed ’cause the children started playing and it didn't matter how the adults felt. They transcended that misunderstanding. We've lived on Gaylord Street now approximately 20 years and I couldn’t have better neighbors or more caring people. We are doing things together now that all neighbors do—help with the snow, get cars unshoveled—particularly conscious of that in this weather, take collections when somebody dies, cook a cake when a baby is born and rejoice and those things that were so terrible for that neighborhood in 1952, when Black Americans first came, really passed. They found out that Cornelius and Barbara Oldwine were going to work, make a living, mow grass, raise children, have sadness and happiness, and we've really become a strong unit on Gaylord Street and with people loving and caring about each other.
Dan: Fine ah now you mentioned that when you first got married you moved in with your ah parents?
Barbara: Right.
Dan: And ah did they own their own home?
Barbara: Yes they did.
Dan: Did they have any trouble acquiring that?
Barbara: Unfortunately the story about my father and mother acquiring the house on Broad Avenue ah is rather gruesome. My father and mother ah came to Binghamton in 1920 and it’s an interesting story because ah they were living in Manhattan and had to catch the Ferry and had to go to Hoboken and get on the old D.L. & W. so indeed they were immigrants. They were coming from Brunswick County, Virginia, and had worked in Manhattan but after that, placed in the mail by Mrs. Dunn—Mabel Dunn ah guess it was Mabel Dunn Eggleston, because she had been married to Dr. Eggleston who was a psychiatrist that had passed. The plan was that my parents, Mary E. and William A. Harris, would be the caretaker and housekeeper for her at 20 Front Street, because she was going to go abroad and she made an interesting plan. She would pay the way from Manhattan to Binghamton—they would work the year—they were satisfied they could stay—if they were dissatisfied, she would give them the fare back to New York and they could seek other employment. Well, needless to say, my parents came in 1920 and my dear father passed in 1973 and my mother is still alive and they made Binghamton their home. Now when he took a job with Mrs. Welden, part of your wages was to have ah quarters as caretaker but my father was an ambitious man and knew this was a satisfactory plan but you needed to have your roots and roots were acquired by property. He had come from a farm family that owned ground in Brunswick County, Bracey, Virginia, and he was able to save and he sought to purchase the house on 41 Broad Avenue approximately in the year 1931 and everybody will remember Mr. Bauman as a great real estate dealer ah Sec—located in Security Mutual and his wife—his son is now the surgeon Dr. Bauman here locally and ah he found no harm in taking my father's hard earned money that had been saved and purchased 41 Broad Avenue—but it came to the attention of my father that the neighbors in that community wrote a letter to then Mr. Benjamin F. Welden, who was the President of Sisson Brothers, Welden Company. Mrs. Eggleston had been married to Mr. Welden and they had suggested that Mr. Welden would make certain that my father would cease and desist in purchasing the property on 41 Broad Avenue. Well, of course, Mr. Welden had no such plan as my father’s earnings and conserving his savings and ah Mr. Bauman had made the arrangement as a real estate dealer so my parents then did purchase the home. Now we did have some unpleasant circumstances in that neighborhood in that ah people again didn't wish to speak, and I don't know why that was, but when WWII came by—many young men left and went to the Service. My Father was called in the draft but not assigned and people found out what a wonderful man he was because when young sons and young husbands were away, he could help women that were left alone and ah this became very very important for his role in the neighborhood as a caring, loving person. My Mother was rather in a quiet, reserved woman and her whole life was her family and her home and she had it beautiful and that’s what women cared about and they found out that she was just like they were. She did all the things—she baked cookies and she got her daughter ready for Girl Scouts and she sang on the church choir and she went to the ah church association that women went to—the Altar Guild—and ah she my mother always was an employed woman as a team with my father—just so special and so and people had to learn to understand and love people being Black and they had not understood yet—maybe it was their fault.
Dan: Umum—have you found things changed now?
Barbara: You know, it is rather insidious the way there is still a great deal of misunderstanding for people and people are sort of scrambling for their own rights and not really understanding that you can't have human rights for yourself if you can't have human rights for everybody. I want to talk about having my ah children come to the Public School system of the City of Binghamton. I consider that they got an excellent education because they were both equipped and prepared to go on to the University. Ah my daughters ah both became ah part of the band at North High and Eileen was a Standard Bearer for the banner that said North High Standard Bearer and my daughter Valerie played in the band and came home one day—“I'm not going to do that anymore, I'm going to do that anymore, I’m going to carry the American flag, I'm 5’9”, I’M the tallest girl”—and that gave us great pleasure to see young Black American women walking in front of the band. That only began with the generation that was represented by my daughter. You heard me talking about Mr. Scanks—his daughter Constance really opened that up at North High for young Black women to be a part of that and then ah other young women that came by ah—Kennedy family had a wonderful young daughter that was in that and Mrs. McGill had a young daughter Carmine and these young women—generation with my daughter, just broke that down that at North High. At Central, it was a little different ah Allan Cave was our President or Principal at McArthur School—his sister June was one of the first gym Black women to be ever selected to be Queen of all the students like at the Senior High level ah and that’s a breakthrough. Now sororities, good or bad—young people have them - I don't recommend them because it excludes people but you know young people make that decision and my daughter Eileen pledged for a sorority and didn’t make it and that rather broke her heart because the sorority hadn't taken young Black women in but then they came along with Valerie and Valerie became Miss New York State Teenager and every sorority wanted Valerie. So what she did, she said, “I will pledge if you pledge my sister,” and then that broke that down and then all sororities started pledging and all fraternities started pledging. That passed with children in that generation which was about the year ah let’s see our children should have been pledged in sororities ah—late ’60s and ah it’s hard to understand why young people and older people can't relate—can’t really understand what our goals are which is to be human beings, seek jobs, live a fair honest life of quality, but there is ah some insidious, insidious discrimination in this community that can 't be controlled by Law. Give you an example—my husband going to work at IBM. Now here's a man who's been in the Army 5 years and he's been away at college and he's home with one baby and he wants to start his life again—he is ah 28 years old—not a boy. In the first year he worked at International Business Machines, other than his manager and setup man, men did not say, ""Good morning,"" or ask about the ball scores or, “how is your wife and the baby?” Now that is pretty tough for a man to go do any assignment because you’re awake there more than you are at anyplace else and the way we face this as a team because Neil’s goal at IBM was a cross to bear. Everybody wishes to be liked but his was to do a good job, receive and advance in promotion to provide for his wife and child and that took some doing because Neil, probably if he went now with the opportunities that are at the International Business Machines and their fair employment practice, he would be a manager. He was born too soon for that but it afforded a good living, and later on they began to find out what a magnificent man Cornelius Oldwine was—how well he did his job and how he was always prompt and quiet and prepared and frank—willing to help another man—a caring person and now it’s really different.
Dan: Is he still working there?
Barbara: Yes—he hasn't retired yet. We started to work very early ah and ah Neil’s 58 but he feels that he will continue to work perhaps until he is 60 or 62 and he, God has been good to us—we are in fine health and he is at the lab in IBM and he loves his job. Similar to my job—now I have been with Social Services ah see if I went in ’46 and this is '78, I have to have 32 years.
Dan: 32 years.
Barbara: And you know with the Government, after 55 years of age, you can retire but I love my job.
Dan : And how old are you Barbara?
Barbara: 55.
Dan: 55.
Barbara: And I feel well respected. Mr. SanFillipo is our current Commissioner, Mr. Dimitri was our immediate past Commissioner and I feel very well respected by the people that I work for and people who work with me and that’s and that’s a privilege.
Dan: What’s your, what’s your title with the Social Sec—Social—
Barbara: Social Services Department—I'm a Supervisor.
Dan: Supervisor.
Barbara: But in Medicaid only.
Dan: Just for Medicaid?
Barbara: Only.
Dan: That’s right, I see.
Barbara: Big assignment—right?
Dan: Sorry—you’re working.
Barbara: Yes.
Dan: Ah, now when you first went to work there 32 years ago ah how did the ah—Do you know how Social Services began and how it has changed up to the present date, for instance what services were available?
Barbara: Well in 1932, under Mr. Robinson as the Commissioner, as I said, Mr. Lounsberry our Mayor, we had all categories which is known as Old Age, Aid to the Blind, Aid to the Disabled and Aid to Dependent Children and of course now you know man—a great deal of that has been transferred and is now in the Social Security system and of course the City of Binghamton was by itself at that time—the Town of Union was alone and Broome County was alone and we had three distinct offices—three distinct commissioners all serving the areas of the County as they did divide employees and then under the direction of Mr. ah Libous, our Mayor, and Mr. Crawford, it was found more at interest of the taxpayers and the serving of the County that we should merge and come under one head and that has been for approximately the past 6 years was one Commissioner and I think they are doing that a lot in Government now, trying to get one head so’s you don’t have it divided because it’s much more economical.
Dan: So in other words the funding is under the Broome County.
Barbara: It’s now called the Department—the Broome County Department of Social Services rather prior to that it was City of Binghamton, Town of Union and a small section—it was just the town was under Broome County.
Dan: Now are you under Federal Regulations?
Barbara: Oh yes ah Medicaid is a Federally sponsored program and ah we are reimbursed ah 80% and then 20% from the County and State and some titles are 60-40, 40 you know 60-40 which amounts 20 County 20 State. You know that, you're probably working for the Action for Older Persons—you know there’s quite a bit in the ah funding.
Dan: Now have you noticed any change in the attitudes of recipients in the benefits?
Barbara: Well I seldom see the applicant now because what has happened is I have been promoted and I'm in administration so I work, I work more with the Social workers than the Examiners but ah the right to receive Public assistance ah the mind of some people is changing all that and I think that came about from the 1937 Social Security Act and the Social Security has moved forward and we've gotten SSI and the people have been included but interesting though ah people still wish to have their right to maintain their own lives and the integrity of being an American citizen or citizen of the United States first—you can decide for yourself and I think respect is still commanded and I wish we were doing more for the older people ah there just doesn't seem to be time and that’s why at Social Services we're so grateful for organizations as Action for Older People and Services for the Aging because we may have the fund but sometimes we don’t have enough people to give the services.
Dan: I see ah now could you—I don' t know whether this is outside of your realm or not but do you know how the relocation of the people of Susquehanna Street was accomplished due to Urban Renewal?
Barbara: Disaster—absolute disaster.
Dan: Absolute disaster—in what respect?
Barbara: In the fact that they didn't care about people and l they made promises, promises, promises which you know have never been kept.
Dan: Well where have they gone?
Barbara: Well fortunately some families were able to buy small modest homes but the promise that they were going to rebuild that area which held many people has never materialized, you know, Woodburn Court, what is it going to have? A few houses now for Senior Citizens and they're not going to take that.
Dan: Going to have a big parking lot.
Barbara: Well I guess they need that. I feel—
Dan: —someplace to put the snow.
Barbara: I just feel that that’s devastating and urban renewal has done that throughout this country to minority persons and poor people and I they have warehoused them and ah we haven't been responsive as citizens to people who—the house might not have met the standards for somebody who was doing urban planning but it had roots and growth and love and care and the curtains may have needed to have been mended but it was starched. It was beautiful and you could sit around and have your coffee or your tea or your cakes and where we sat people—I think we are moving over to the mausoleums—don't start me on that—I feel terrible about it.
Dan: OK, I won't pursue that any further ah now I think you will agree with me Barbara, that ah we're living in a promiscuous society today with ah young couples living together without regard for marriage.
Barbara: Well I think that’s the at—you know my feelings are.
Dam: No.
Barbara: I—“promiscuous” is your adjective.
Dan: Right.
Barbara: Not one I would use because that says that I'm placing a value judgment on someone else’s decision.
Dan: Umum.
Barbara: And one of the things that has been a tenet in my life—that I may have a standard set for Barbara Oldwine and I may wish to keep that high—then it becomes a standard that Cornelius and I set together—a family standard and I wish to transfer that and the beauty of that in the growth of my Church and the love of my community to my daughters but I have never felt that I could place a value judgment on someone else's decision so I, I totally using that adjective.
Dan: You don't like that.
Barbara: No I can't use—well it's all right for you, I, I would defend with my life your right to use it.
Dan: Uh huh—well the only, the only reason I asked is that in such an arrangement of two people living together and one—say the girl becomes pregnant and the boy figures that “I've had enough,” and he moves out—has this had a bearing on the welfare rolls?
Barbara: I think a lot of people want to think that but I don’t think that’s ah been ah documented and we just want to look at that like that and are not really willing to look at why we have increased the people that have support and assistance in our society and the reason we have increased is that we are in such a high society of technology that people would, could come to America and not speak English but could become a farmer or do the hardest labor on the railroad or become construction people and not need all this refinement—they could go ahead and build from the bootstrap. All that has disappeared and it’s I think it’s the technology of this country that it constantly, you goad the simple jobs that people could get that didn’t have a lot of training and this is why we are in a great bit of difficulty of people not being able to find work and the other thing I think that I’m not sure that people still care about people, that we are really serving, want to help. We're a society that’s always proved ourselves, that always have to have someone as an underdog on the bottom—stepping on them. We proved that when we went to Vietnam, we proved that when we had the Civil War, so I really don’t want to talk about a person's decision to share their life with another person and create a life, which is an act of God, and then decide that they can’t face that responsibility means that the welfare rolls have increased, because I don't know that, because there are women who have been left alone where this decision has been made, have gone on and done great things and provided for that young life that they created and that they decided to keep. So we don't have the statistics.
Dan: You don't have the statistics?
Barbara: No and we mustn't draw that out as that’s the reason. I feel the welfare rolls have increased because technology of this country has moved simple jobs out of the contact for people, you know we are not educating people to get the technological jobs—there are more people than there are jobs.
Dan: Umum.
Barbara: And every time you, say, put it on a printout—use it on a computer, maybe you eliminate an individual who maybe could have done a simple job.
Dan: Umum.
Barbara: And we're starting to warehouse people and that’s very frightening and I don't think we should base it on what the moral decision is. The fact that as human beings, we can't cast the first stone against someone else's decisions because if we had done that ah God would never have been close to Mary Magdalene.
Dan: Umum.
Barbara: And He loved this woman and reminded us, be without sin ourselves before we cast the first stone. But when He went to the well for the water, the woman said to Him, “Why do you ask me to fill the pitcher to serve you?” because she was different in Gentile and Jew and He didn't care. He was going to drink from the pitcher that would be sweet because it had been blessed out.
Dan: Umum—now what clubs have you belonged to Barbara?
Barbara: OK—I feel very privileged to say that I am a Life Member of American Association of University Women and I have served as a Secretary for that organization and then I'm proud to say I’m a member of Semper Fidelis, which was founded by Mrs. Beccye Fawcett—this is part of the National Negro Conference of Women who are original founders with Mary McCloud McLew—a beautiful woman who established Bethune-Cookman College on nothing—what an inspiration—and then ah I'm a member and ah immediate Past President of Broome County Urban League Guild, a member of the Monday Afternoon Club—that was an exciting thing. The Monday Afternoon Club was 100 years old. These beautiful women decided that all women should have a right to belong to that organization and ah you know at Monday Club, you have to be sponsored by a woman and then two women cosponsored you and Mrs. Fawcett and I were both selected and I have loved my association with these women—there is so much beauty there and of course you know our home has been listed as ah one of the outstanding architectural homes in this country—in the State—it was owned by Mr. Phelps first and there is a lot of loving, caring there for women and we do a lot of great things there.
Dan: It was owned by Mr. Phelps?
Barbara: Yes.
Dan: Is it the banker?
Barbara: I'm not quite sure.
Dan: E.Z. Phelps?
Barbara: I think so—that’s in the history, all right and then ah lets see.
Dan: You belong to—do you still belong to Episcopal—
Barbara: Trinity Memorial Episcopal Church—oh I was baptized there and now it’s really wonderful. Neil and I were married there. Our daughter Valerie was married there and we baptized her first baby there.
Dan: Yeah—how many children do you have?
Barbara: I have just Eileen, my oldest daughter, who is associated with the ah State Department in Washington as a Foreign Service officer.
Dan: Wonderful.
Barbara: Really exciting job and of course we have our daughter Valerie Oldwine Barnes who is married to John C. Barnes with their little daughter Amera and of course you know the new baby is coming any day.
Dan: Yes (laughter).
Barbara: We were rather delayed with this and John and Valerie are both associated with IBM as her father is.
Dan: Well that’s fine.
Barbara: I must tell you about Valerie—she’s 29 and she’s a manager of Finance in the Lab and I’ll tell you a little about the girls’ education, if I may.
Dan: Surely.
Barbara: Eileen went to Fisk University.
Dan: Your Alma Mater.
Barbara: My Alma Mater so that’s always very important for Mother and then she went on to go to the University of Michigan to do her Masters in Public Health Administration. Valerie chose to go to Howard University, then she went on to do her Masters at the Wharton School of Finance at University of Pennsylvania. I’d like to point out here that my daughter selected the predominantly Black University for the undergraduate program. Having been raised in Binghamton, they had not had a great deal of opportunity to associate with the peer group because our population here you know is very small—approximately now about 3000, which is a small number in the total community and both girls needed that kind of identity and we feel very fortunate that they were able to obtain that in ’59 then when they were ready to go further into their development professionally. They then sought the University that would offer the ah choice Degree for which they settled and ah we're really excited when we say Valerie finished Wharton because it is—she was one of the first 10 Black women to receive her India World honor.
Dan: I see—OK she went on for further studies at Wharton.
Barbara: Yes the MBA Wharton School of Finance, University of Pennsylvania and it has been a great deal to her career and ah it’s interesting to know all industry is accepting women and men and giving them promotions based on ability and that’s what this is all about.
Dan: So ah in Beccye Fawcett’s mind, anyone who has the education and the opportunity, can go out and get a job—no matter what the color of his skin is today—right?
Barbara: Well I guess there you know—nothing can be overall and a lot of young Black people will feel that they may get in the door and that’s a very important step, getting in the door. Now we have to worry about where they're going once they're in the door—are they going to move up? We have to acknowledge that in bib business and in finance, we don't have too many Bank Presidents yet who are Black and we don't have too many high level managers ah who are Black and this is still the goal that young Black people are trying for—ah Patricia Harris, who is in the Cabinet with ah Mr. ah Carter—she’s an exception. Vernon Jordan directs the Urban League—outstanding man now—I can’t think of the young woman that was just appointed as the Executive Director for National Planned Parenthood—but she's 34, she’s from Dayton, Ohio and she’s going to earn $7,000 a year. She was a nurse first and then got her M.Ph in Ohio. Now our young Black people are having to really strive to get promotions and move into the top level of management. We’re faced with the Backey case for admission to the ah medical schools, which is being heard by the Supreme Court, because if they're talking about reverse discrimination, Civil Rights have to look at that. I believe in preparing but they're, they're still a fuzzy area. Ah I'm not satisfied that it’s a—besides it not all to a degree for anybody anymore—one is this technology that is requiring more and more training. Why don’t, why don’t white or black interests think of the number of teachers that are just not admitted to the school districts because we don’t have the money—we're cutting down, we're consolidating Junior children.
Dan: We have declining enrollment at the moment.
Barbara: Right.
Dan: Right—well Barbara, is there anything else that you would like to add?
Barbara: Well I would like to stress that I ah feel that education and preparedness should play a great part in the lives of people but there has to be a certain amount of human understanding and we have to transcend that and have people recognize people for the working people and it’s going to be very difficult in this society for what I call the dominant part of the society which is the white American male to understand that perhaps he is going to be threatened by the Black American and by women. He has always been the Chairman of the Board—that he is going to have to move over to make room.
Dan: So you're an advocacy of women’s rights.
Barbara: Oh definitely.
Dan: OK, I’m not going to dispute that either. (laughter).
Barbara: Thank you Dan—well what do you think?
Dan: Fine—do you want me to turn it off and I’ll turn—play it back for you?
Barbara: Oh to hear a little bit of it, I don't need to hear it all.
[PAUSE ON TAPE]
Dan: Can you tell me any special honors you have received as a citizen of the community, Barbara?
Barbara: Well I think the most beautiful honor I have received was at the time of the Bicentennial and I was selected by the commission to be Woman of the Year for the City of Binghamton and that meant a great deal to me because it was based on my contribution to the community as a loving, caring person and I think it was afforded to me because of my work with ah the United Way—I've been on the Board of Directors there and ah I've been on the Board of Directors for Planned Parenthood and at the present time, I'm a national Board member for the YWCA of America—have 91 women on that governing Board and reach that plateau because the women of your own community nominate you for the work you have done and my work with the “Y” here. I was the President of the Board of Directors so none of these things would have been possible for me if the people of the community hadn’t respected me and knew that we cared about each other.
Dan: Thank you Barbara.
Barbara: OK.
",,,,"37:47 Minutes ; 15:05 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Barbara Oldwine",,,,1978-03-01,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Urban League; Planned Parenthood; Oldwine, Barbara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Fisk University; African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Social workers -- Interviews; Race discrimination; American Association of University Women; Young Women's Christian Association",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a882ab9170f3d714afc828d95a3305c5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9636ba79abc1f7420e2b0b32c2c34035.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/be8688842374f8a0dec1b91bc842d4c5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/aa6b32e060a6f776de0040e282eb2577.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b28bc68a0018a82ffa1824a6dbffcf56.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/56ea350b8e0e539023a7f8beba89e270.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/60076a766e6b3c172fcfd52417cdcee9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2a2bc53c9dd21e4cc4d95adb261c5223.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e4ee77b4f373233b42174e112044bc33.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/58b7797adfdc34eac92296ff8fc7ee27.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c7d034f03f9f33bc0953ac5f39c24fa6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/063654cd85091c7494e90e65d93bec7d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c13957812d75f047806808601cf547eb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1d1061cdf29e3f2b14192dfc52ff4b2a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/45380a319bb4d7b91424509102fb451f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a12d0f765e4685f821accfeae99b1095.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fdefa42424fae19da0c65682e9537de9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc9441e56240f0042dc549a814efe060.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/494150e282c2b2ef07fef685f23e4562.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/56ce5f2c788fdf9d73e62f12ae496f20.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/891a8806e0849d4530d520736ae203e1.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 509,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/509,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"24:02 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Jenny Tokos Gaidorus",,"Gaidorus, Jenny Tokos ; Caganek, Anna",,audio/mp3,"Gaidorus, Jenny Tokos -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Cigar industry; Johnson City (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Medical care","Jenny Tokos Gaidorus talks about immigrating through Ellis Island and then moving to Johnson City, NY where she worked in a cigar factory and the Endicott Johnson Corporation. She discusses being a widow and raising her children alone. She supported herself by renting rooms in her house to baseball players. She discusses her medical conditions and operations she underwent, which resulted in moving into a nursing home.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-03-03,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 25",,"Caganek, Anna","Gaidorus, Jenny Tokos",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Jenny Tokos Gaidorus
Interviewed by: Anna Caganek
Date of interview: 3 March 1978
Jenny: I came here in 1914, I was about 12 years old and I came to Ellis Island. They kept me there for three days until my aunt put up a $500 bond for me—
Anna: Go on.
Jenny: —Then I came here, then I went to school for a while and I liked it, and I said, “I'm going to work for Endicott Johnson,” and I started working. I was 14 years old in E.J., then I went to the cigar factory for $2.00 a week, and I was doing a little housework for 50 cents a week and it was, kind of hard, so then—what do you want me to say?
Anna: Where.
Jenny: I worked in the shoe factory, then when the work was slow I went to the cigar factory. It wasn’t hard to get a job. When it was bad in the cigar factory we went back to the shoe factory and work like that, and I was young, I got married and then I had the children one after the other, but I was working in E.J.
Anna: How many children did you have?
Jenny: Four children, and well, we had to go to work for 8 and 9 dollars a week. That, and then my husband died, I was 28 years old and I had 4 small children, then I was working, and then I got so sick that the doctor put me out from the factory, and so I make a living home. I had baseball players, roomers, and took care of the kids on the street, and made a living like that, and everything.
I was a widow for 14 years, and I got married again, and then I had operations, one after the other, and have half of my stomach out and all those things, and a Pacemaker, and now they took my both feet off, amputated, and I—one was maybe below the knee at two year ago. And a year ago they had to take the other one off, so I am in a nursing home paying $2500 a month. Is it going?
Anna: Yes, go on.
Jenny: It was kinda hard and it is hard now, I had one boy that was killed in 1942, in a car accident with another boy, and then my other son died, was 49 years old. I have one son in Arizona. A daughter is here living on Front Street, and she's not well either, she don’t come up to see me much, she can’t. And well, I'm in a bed most of the time, and in a wheelchair. They put me on about 1:30 and then I stay in the wheelchair about 2 hours or so, and then they put me back in bed, and so I'm in bed most of the time.
Anna: You were saying that you liked sports.
Jenny: Baseball. I used to have the baseball players living up to my house, and I used to cook for them and do their washing, and then they had a write-up about the baseball park, how they—once in a while I went to the ballgames, and they had fights there. And wrestling, I used to like to go and see that, and I play Bingo a lot. Even we play Bingo every Monday here. (Cough).
Anna: And when you were young, what did you do for amusement?
Jenny: I didn't have time, I had washing and then ironing to do all the time.
Anna: Did you ever go dancing?
Jenny: No, I didn’t. I would sneak out and I went to Bingo.
Anna: Did you ever go to Ross Park, or to the band concert?
Jenny: No, I didn't have time for that. I used to play Bingo. I used to take care of the children and the chickens, and garden and canning, all day.
Anna: How much did you can every year?
Jenny: About one thousand quarts, everything from the garden—pear trees, cherry trees.
Anna: That’s the way people lived those days.
Jenny: Yes, those days that’s the way you did. We didn't make much money. It was better for me to stay home than have somebody to take care of the children and I every way, different ways.
Anna: Your children are all grown up, anyway.
Jenny: Now, yes, one son is in Arizona, going to have open heart surgery, yes, and I don’t know when, maybe next week, someday.
Anna: Could you remember, think of anything else?
Jenny: No, was busy all the time with cooking and baking, and I worked in the Johnson City Legion for about seven years, had had charge of the kitchen there and I worked there for fifty cents an hour.
Anna: Can you think of anything else?
Jenny: No, that’s it.
Anna: Thank you.
",,,,"24:02 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Jenny Tokos Gaidorus",,,,1978-03-03,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Gaidorus, Jenny Tokos -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Cigar industry; Johnson City (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Medical care",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8e78a46bce32efb1fb6e4e351dcd3a2e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1bce07ea4b8a6098988acae0e6d28a81.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b8e506bd95441e33035d113f1eca9a1d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0b036aa709027d62ffc94983e980e496.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 436,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/436,,,,,,,,,,2016-01-28,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"32:16 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with John P. Ayres",,"Ayres, John P. ; Dobandi, Susan",,audio/mp3,"Ayres, John P. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Veterinarians -- Interviews; Farmers -- Interviews; Corbettsville (N.Y.); Agriculture; Food Quality Control",,,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-03-04,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 1 ",,"Dobandi, Susan","Ayres, John P.",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Dr. John P. Ayres
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 4 March 1978
Susan: Dr. Ayres, could you start by telling us where you were born, something of your parents and, ah, your early childhood experiences, and then go on with your schooling and how you became a veterinarian?
Dr. Ayres: I was born in, ah, Broome County, in Corbettsville, NY, Snake Creek Road, which in those days was a dirt road, and my father didn't own the farm that I was born on, so I presume that makes me a tenant farmer’s son, which seem to make for great relationships and rapport with some people. However, my father had the determination that someday he would own that farm, and he did own the farm and today I own the farm, which is the story that, ah, goes with the majority of people in this country. Ah, my mother was orphaned at—at sixteen and she had, ah, five younger brothers and sisters and, ah, she went to work and supported them and held her family together in turn, so I was therefore blessed with two people that were ideal for parents, because my father was a strong, steady, determined individual, in a rural atmosphere, and had a—had a very happy boyhood on the farm, perhaps the happiest days of my life, and again I emphasize, as a tenant farmer’s son, because ah, having lived 60-plus years I find out that the biggest asset is not being left with money, but being left with pride and responsibility to this government, that we live and enjoy and have the opportunity to develop ourselves to our maximum, and my parents strongly believed that and in those days the farm we had, ah, was primarily a dairy farm, a small dairy farm of a hundred seventy-five acres.
Our house had at least four if not five bedrooms, as I recall, and we were, had none of the niceties that we reflect on today. We had three stoves that burned wood, that was our only source of heat and therefore, of course they went out at night and it was a question of my father getting up, perhaps at 4:30 in the morning, as I recall, and getting the first stove started, and then the rest of us coming down one by one and, ah, entering into it. Having no heat in the house, obviously we had no running water. The well for the house was thirty feet from the house, and that was partly the responsibility of us children, to bring the water in—in pails, and the warm water was heated on the tank on the side of the stove, as I recall, and that took care of the acid, of getting the water in. The waste material of the body, the toilet was the common standard privy at the time. It was located twenty feet from the rear of the house, and everything that James, ah, Whitcomb Riley, as I recall he wrote a piece of poetry on “The Passing of the Backhouse,” and that is, ah, one that certainly fills the bill and describes it as accurately as any farmer’s son could. We—ah, my brothers and I had—we were blessed with two brothers and two sisters. We all went to the Corbettsville school, which was a two-room schoolhouse—one floor above the other, and it still stands and is now a residence—and I think that was the first time I realized that I was handicapped. I was handicapped in being left-handed and had a schoolteacher who had one thought, that I would become right-handed and it was a question of wills, and I'm still left-handed today, but I well remember her hitting with the ruler, hitting my left hand with the ruler when I'd use it, and I lived long enough to tell her when I was a fairly successful doctor that—that was the only thing I regretted of that period in school, that she had many valuable assets, but her determination to break me was probably only exceeded by my determination that I wouldn't be broken. That was my first handicap, and there came a time, then, when we left there and moved into Binghamton and left the farm behind, and my father went to work because he couldn't buy that farm for another man at a dollar a day. I remember his wages were a dollar a day, and he was considered to work for that a minimum of ten hours each day, so it was about ten cents an hour he got.
Obviously, living in Binghamton and working outside was something couldn't successfully for him, and so he located a job in Kirkwood and operated a feed and coal supply that, ah, took care of the people in the Village of Kirkwood and the farmers throughout there, and it probably was the best thing that period in my life, because again I mention I was blessed with a farmer who could be a businessman, who never thought this country owed him a living. He was grateful for what it offered and he imbued that to us, that we had the opportunity to achieve whatever we wanted. That was a period somewhere between 1925 and 1930 that we were there, and that, in that period, I had many friends there, and I want to emphasize that because I still have, ah, but the outstanding unfortunate thing that happened to me there was in the Kirkwood school, which again was a two room school. I went there and I was the only Catholic boy in eight grades when Al Smith dared to run for President, and I still carry one of the scars over my eye from the beatings I used to take because a Catholic dared to run for President. I laugh now when people tell about minorities and their problems. I don't know what they would do if they were the one in the entire school, ah, but the challenge was there, and today I say, “God Bless it,” because it's the challenges that makes us if we have the guts to rise above them, because of the ones that attacked me in those days, we all lived to forget, though—that period, most of us were kids, we were all kids. We really didn't know what the whole problem was about. It was only what, we were getting it at home and it was through ignorance that we were receiving it, and my side of the question wasn't, of course, was, ah, that someday there was going to be a Catholic President, and I've lived long enough to see one and I'd have to admit that I didn't vote for him when he ran. I—I was one that voted for Richard Nixon [in 1960], so you see, the years have worn off the antagonism that might have developed in my mind so that I would’ve blindly voted for the man of my religion, and instead I voted against him.
And of many of those that perhaps were pretty unfriendly at that period, I lived to do their veterinary work, which I think is a challenge to many of us, to overcome the difficulties that we have in our youth. Then I went on from Kirkwood and my father bought the farm I was born on and we went back, we turned to the farm, and from there I—I gradually formed the opinion I would become a veterinarian those years, even when my father had this feed business.
I was out working and I bought a horse for eighteen dollars—I bought a horse for eighteen dollars—and I agreed to work for the man eighteen days, and when my father looked over the horse he told me, as a good father should, “You got the horse in effect without my advice. It's not worth bringing it home.” The horse lasted a few months, lasted such a short time that I hadn't earned the payment on the farmer’s farm for it, and my father insisted that I go there after the horse was dead and work it out with the farmer. It was a humiliating thing, but it was the best thing happened to me. If you give a man your word, you keep your word. If you buy something, good or bad, you’re stuck with it. There is no whining, no whimpering or crying out, and I look back and I think that was my first real business transaction that was a complete flop, but I had two parents and neither one relented. I had to go there and pick potatoes in the fields in the fall after the horse was dead until I paid for a dead horse, and so I thoroughly understand the expression about buying a dead horse because I bought one almost dead, with that I formed my opinion on there ought to be a better way to do business that I had done, and I—I think it was a beginning of a challenge to me, because I think each one of these, ah, strengthens my determination to do more.
I had dogs in those days, and cats, I always had them as a boy, and ah, we were impoverished, ah, not with the point of pity do I say, but it wasn't considered practical and it wasn't practical to take the dog to a veterinarian in, in those days. So I had a dog with distemper in that town of Kirkwood, and I went and talked with the man about it and he gave me some sulfur to give the dog and he knew it would cure the dog, and well, the dog would throw up, I guess every time I'd push the sulfur down the poor dog, and eventually the dog had fits—he had repeated fits in our home—and the man was corning along that I had talked to, and he was carrying his gun, and I remember as a boy him opening the bedroom window, saying, “That dog has rabies,” and shooting it and splattering the brains over the wall of the bedroom. Of course the dog had distemper and, ah, I guess that again fortified my there must be a better way than this, and—
Then we went back to the farm and I raised rabbits. My brothers and I had, at one time, over a hundred rabbits, and we got into other things that—raising calves, and of course we had dairy cattle, and in that transition on the farm from being born there and then coming back years later, I reflect on what a vast difference, how things were changing—when we left that farm we had no running water, we had no inside toilets in the house. We were cold in the winter, we, ah, we had an old broken down car when we left the farm. It was a used car.
In the winter when we needed water for the cattle we had a stream, there was a little stream, there was a pipe, brought water outside the barn. The cows would go out to drink, and the pipe would freeze in the winter, so you would have to go down to Snake Creek and cut a hole and drive the cows down through the snow, and they'd slide on the ice and I—I just can't remember any of our cattle breaking legs there, but how many, many cattle I saw afterward did break their legs on the ice trying to get out to drink water where the holes had been cut for them—then when we returned to the farm, all that had changed. We put in a heat within the house, got a new well, added inside plumbing so that my poor mother, for the first time on that farm ever, had running water. We had the same thing at the barn, a well, drinking buckets for the cows, metal stanchions, and the biggest thing of all from the standpoint of quality of milk—and even we could detect that—was, for the first time, we really had electricity and we had the means of quick refrigeration of milk so that we had quality milk.
When we left the farm in the summer we had to get ice out of our icehouse that had been put there the previous winter, that we had put there, by cutting it off of the Susquehanna River and hauling it up on big sleighs with the horse. The farmers got together, pooled their efforts and brought this ice home, and then it was covered with sawdust, and then in the summer, piece by piece, it was taken out. It was cleaned off, as best one could, of the sawdust, and put in water to chill the milk down instead—in that period of time of change we had, it was the beginning of quality controlled milk and we had inspectors coming to the farm and the improvement in milk rapidly following.
One of my memories there, however, was again the question of veterinary services and a dog I had that would never stay home. He was probably the stud dog of the town of Conklin, and at my end I guess I was sort of proud of him, ’cause he took on many a dog and whipped them. He also got into a bit of trouble, too, of course, got me in and therefore got my family in, and so my family made arrangements for me to take the dog with my oldest brother to this man—now long since dead, so I guess I could tell the story on how the operation, how that dog was castrated—and he took the dog into the barn and he wrapped a chain around the dog's mouth and he told my brother to hold that, and he took out his jackknife and then he deliberately sharpened while I was watching him, and then he just cut the testicles off. There was no tying off blood vessels or nothing, and that dog lingered along for perhaps three or four days before he finally bled to death at our home, and I watched it each day, and my parents didn't know but they thought there was something wrong, but they thought that man had more experience and he assured them that the bleeding would stop, well, it didn't fix it at all. The dog bled to death. So I think that was the final straw in in that aspect of my thinking there must be a better way to do this, and it sort of convinced me that, ah, I was going to do a little more with that, even though I would talk to people about becoming a lawyer, and in due time I went to Cornell, and then I was trying to get one year in and my father had a stroke. He was confined to a wheelchair from then on.
The Depression was on us and there was no question about, ah, help in those days. There was no tuition assistance program and again I say, “Thank God there was no tuition assistance program.” I have little respect for the present-day college students who whine for extra money when there are jobs available all over the county for them. I was successful in the veterinarian college. I was given a room in the basement to live in, and I worked for 40¢ an hour and I used to have to sit up nights, watch the mares have colts, and I cleaned laboratory equipment and so forth, and I worked my way through college and I—I came home rarely, because as I say, I, my pride had then, I think, equalled my parents’. I wouldn't ask them for a penny, because I knew they had all the struggling they could trying to maintain the homestead, and with my father in a wheelchair and confined. I learned at that point in life when he had this stroke that—it was interesting, that everyone my father owed money to had it well-documented, people who owed my father, and I knew they did even from the days in the feed business, he didn't have it well-tallied, and many of the people I think owed him never paid him. I think, again, it sort of toughened me to realize life was that way. In fact, I remember one man, he said he owed my father and he said he wanted to work it out in plowing, and he came to our farm and he plowed until he thought the bill was square, and at that time, nor until the time he died, no one ever knew how much he owed my father, and he wouldn't tell us and we didn't know, but it was a question. My father was primarily a dairy man and a smalltime, ah, fellow in this market that we call this outside world, and he wasn't able to cope, so financially, we weren't in a good, ah, set of financial circumstances, not because he didn't work, but because he didn't realize that everything had to be documented. He was, at that point, not businesslike enough in case of catastrophe, which we've all learned we have to be, but it did provide a good basis for me to realize that if I was going to make it at Cornell, I was going to make it on my own, and I did, and I remember the high point of my life in that was when I came home and I gave my mother three hundred dollars, besides going through college, and then I went to New York and worked, and in due time I worked in dog and cat hospitals, and then I came back and went to work for the Dairymen's League—[Clock chimes]---which was a milk company, and I worked for them two years until the Army called me up, and I was five years in the Army.
Then I came home and became City Veterinarian of Binghamton, and in that period I had seen the transition, the change that had gone on again, and of course I was then completely on the other side. I was no longer someone from off the farm. I was then a man that had become a doctor of veterinary medicine and served in the ranks of the Army in quality control of foods in general, from the state of Maine to Florida and as far west as Michigan. I served in ranks of Lieutenant and Captain and Major and Lt. Colonel—ah, in fact, when I came home from the Army I was Chief Veterinarian in the First Air Force and I was the youngest veterinarian in it, and the Chief, so I came home with that kind of background to bring about quality control of foods in general in the City of Binghamton and the farms that supplied milk to the city and the milk plants, and found myself pitted to some degree against many of my former acquaintances—I use “acquaintances” rather than “friends” because I, ah—some of them didn't accept change, men who get older, I guess many men don't accept change, especially coming from a younger person—but I remained a city veterinarian for fourteen years before I went with the State. I saw all the changes come about. I saw rabies so bad in Broome County in 1947 that we had over 50 cases of rabies in the city of Binghamton in July of 1947, and I can say in 1977 we didn't have a single case in the city, and the few cases that we do have outside of the city are generally attributed to wildlife, where I'm sure rabies will always exist, but by vaccinations we eliminate that, so that three quarters of the veterinarians in the county have never seen a case of rabies. They talk about it, and we know it's there in wildlife, but we just don't see it. That was accomplished by the use of vaccination, and the same thing is true with the dogs, but I've experienced—in treating my own dog in Kirkwood with distemper and using sulfur, it merely made the dog vomit and had him shot in the head in my bedroom—has changed now by the advent of vaccination, so that no dog need die of distemper, it's a question of, perhaps, our failure to get to the people that can do it. On the other hand, I do think there was a—a stronger character in the people then—if they couldn't afford a veterinarian, they said they couldn't—today many people want the dogs, or want the children, and yet they don't want what goes with them, and so it is part of the work and the responsibility that goes with having pets or having children, you have to have enough responsibility to be willing to sacrifice for them, and sacrifice isn't done by an expression of words, but by acts.
Susan: Let's continue, Dr. Ayres, by telling us something about the women in your life.
Dr. Ayres: Well, the women in my life start with my mother, and my mother was a school teacher, and in those days it took two short winter courses to become a school teacher and one stayed ahead of one’s students, I believe, and therefore she was the one that instilled into us education was the only way to get ahead in this country, that was the, ah, the best and logical course of events. I can remember when I would be losing the rounds while Al Smith ran for President, this mother of mine’d tell me at home how I could overcome them, and that was only one way, by education, and my mother was proud in the sense of real pride, but she knew that success for our family meant being a partner to my father, and she was that, and many a night and many a morning my mother was with us milking the cows, which today might sound degrading, but my mother, she was the best.
Then the next woman in my life was my wife, and my wife, thank God, was a nurse. She was of the generation when the nurse had all the basic training that was needed to inculcate in her mind the willingness to, ah, take care of the patient in all events, so—so it really did never seem to me a difference whether the patient was a human or an animal, and I've been privileged, as a result of having such a partner, to have my practice always contiguous to my house. When I had a heavy practice and my wife could advise the owners of animals as well as I could, and many times, I've had to admit, much better. She had a charm that I didn't have, because I was of the generation that, ah, was pretty practical, and you had to tell someone very bluntly whether the animal would make it or not, and there was an economic value on animals in a large animal practice that there isn't on a small animal practice. My wife had the right background by becoming a nurse, and my wife is first generation from Lithuania. Her father came from Lithuania and crossed over the border and got away from the Russians who had engulfed, ah, Lithuania years ago, as they again did after World War II, and that little country, like the little country that my people immigrated from, Ireland, has stood the mistreatment of a larger power all the time, and my mother dwelt much on history and pride, family loyalty, and knew that her people had come from Nova Scotia and she carefully documented what little knowledge she had, sufficient that even though she never knew her relatives in Nova Scotia, nor did her father before her know the relatives in Nova Scotia, with what she had documented I was able, after a hundred-plus years, to locate relatives in Nova Scotia and develop a genealogy and have composed and written a twelve-page booklet on my relatives from the time that they appeared in Nova Scotia in about the year of 1800.
Last fall my wife and I went to Ireland and tried to establish connections there, but in a country that, ah, 50% were either starved to death or forced into immigration by the horrendous laws of England, ah, it is very hard to establish much on genealogy—however, we are pursuing it and we'll follow along on that. But prior to that time, even before I retired and became, in the present-day terminology, the “double dipper”—because, ah, I did continue my Army career in reserve and I continued my work for New York State until I achieved a pension in both, ah, I have kept my private practice—but I did start with my children and, I have a boy and a girl and I started taking them, first to Puerto Rico, and I went on a group tour and promptly left the tour and took my children down to the most godforsaken areas that existed in old San Juan and so forth, where people were living in tin shacks under lean-tos, et cetera, that they had never seen before, and from there we continued taking various trips to Spain, Mexico and Italy, ah, primarily for the children by that time, and I thought back of, ah, when we stood at Rome—when my mother made one trip, and that was into Canada, she always asked me, sometime before I die, to make a trip to Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupré Shrine in Canada, little thinking I'd get to the Vatican first—then, ah, my daughter followed the image of her mother, I think, and was inclined at times to become a nurse, but she went into Languages in the SUNY system and she went through college, and in the summer she has worked, just like my son that's in Pre-Med, he worked the last two summers at General Hospital, and again, thank God he started the first summer in the laundry room and I was pleased when his boss told me that fall—that fall he was through, he told me, that's where every doctor ought to start, down there where the towels came down with the blood and fecal deposits and pieces of bones and everything else that goes with a hospital come down, the laundry room, and I think too many people rise too fast out of the basement of life and not realize what's down there, so I was pleased when he got that job, and then last summer he worked as an orderly in General Hospital, and I think that he has now an awareness of, if he is gonna become a medical doctor, of the basic thing that goes with it, the understanding that goes with it, and of course he had all the years with me, because my practice being next to my home, he was able to render first aid, and both of my children helped me on caesarean sections and so forth—rubbed the little puppies and kittens, ah, from the minute they were brought life on into them, when they were overwhelmed with disease or need patrician or something, so they both had the opportunity to learn, and I look back at my life now and reflect on the terrible situation that so many children come up in—the terrible situation of not knowing how their parents make money—not knowing what makes this country tick—and I think they've have had that opportunity. I thank God that they've had as much as they have had, that they realize how money came in this house and how it went out of this house because the business was, ah, contiguous to it, and in so many lives today the check comes in once or twice a month and it has to do, therefore there is a price paid for it. The price is that while we probably have now the most intelligent people graduating from our schools, they may also be the most immature.
Susan: That about sums it up, doesn't it?
Dr. Ayres: In retirement I enjoy every day, and like any doctor I think I'll probably continue practicing until I cross the divide, if God gives me the strength.
Susan: Well, thank you, Dr. Ayres, it's been nice of you to take time out from your busy life to talk with us. Thank you.
",,,,"32:16 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Dr. John P. Ayres talks about his upbringing in Corbettsville, NY, his interests in agriculture and animals in young age that led him to succeed in the fields of farming and veterinary work. He discusses his experiences in the Army, college, and his professional life.",,"Interview with Dr. John P. Ayers, Veterinarian",,,,"1978-03-04 ",,"Broome County Oral History Project","Ayres, John P. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Veterinarians -- Interviews; Farmers -- Interviews; Corbettsville (N.Y.); Agriculture; Food Quality Control",2016-01-28,Sound,audio/mp3,English,"Binghamton University Libraries","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",audio,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=Ayers.xml,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8f7c008bfe576da0c3e5a436e77c9ca4.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/608962303427000a6641ac001a094ad2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d84cff87d5fc57912d81809804353aca.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/05daed04110e74a0fa1edcca14d77235.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d0b8b028c68e25452907ca0800e4c4e6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c1d1be4f3f042761d112ac09d24f200a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7b749f9851b211f967cf7a1ffe0ed051.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/467e5d4153c3292c457b0ca887ef36bc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6dd0f4465735d25ddbbafdc643988afc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c9bfe19c3ad023a55da6c91324480927.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/677ddd0e267287b84069a070e8a83c77.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c2052c94c2a0a73085b8c256f1d39ffb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/22d200c336c5a54edf6eeec115b0f971.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6eafabc2413fea0380a1ab002a1dd7ef.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5c534e5f5ca38fbfaf722042dadb07d4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3b15bf3f29d47600d9b353407666843d.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 467,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/467,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"34:55 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Anna Borsuk",,"Borsuk, Anna ; Dobandi, Susan",,audio/mp3,"Borsuk, Anna -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Pittsburgh (Pa.); Beauty shops; Tuberculosis -- Patients -- Interviews; Single mothers -- Interviews","Anna Borsuk talks about her early years, moving from Pittsburgh, PA, to Binghamton, NY, and working in hotels in NYC. She discusses opening one of the first beauty parlors in Binghamton, running a tourist house, struggles with failing health due to TB and raising her son alone. She remarks the help she received from welfare and the kindness of people working in urban renewal in her later years.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-03-06,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 4",,"Dobandi, Susan","Borsuk, Anna",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Miss Anna Borsuk
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 6 March 1978
Susan: This is Susan Dobandi, interviewer, and I'm talking with Miss Anna Borsuk, who lives at 24 Isbell Street, Binghamton, NY. The date is March 6, 1978. Anna, Could you tell us something about your early beginnings, where you were born, any recollections of your childhood?
Anna: Yes, I can—I can remember, oh, from the age of five or six, I guess, I remember.
Susan: Where were you born?
Anna: I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. We moved from there to Mayfair, PA, and I was, I guess I must have been eight or nine years old. From there we moved again to Carbondale, PA, and I started to work in a hotel. I was there five years as a waitress and all-around girl. I'm ahead of my story, but let’s see, I got married before I started working at the hotel. I was married when I was sixteen years old and, ah, I had my son, my son, and then when he was a year and a half old I left and went to the hotel. I went to work as a waitress and I was there five years, and I met some good friends there who were salesmen—saw how hard I worked and how much money I was making and they felt sorry for me, and I—in the meantime my mother’s and father’s home burned down and they lost everything, and I felt very badly. While I was working some of the guests noticed me, that I felt badly, and they asked why I was upset, and I told them that we had lost our home—we lost everything—and they said, “Why do you stay here in Carbondale and work in this hotel? You work too hard,” they used to tell me, and ah, I really don't know whether to— “Why don't you move to Lestershire?”
“We'll see.” So, Mr. Bennett, you know, he was a salesman for ladies’ hats and used to come around and show his hats around. In those days the salesmen used to bring their stuff to different hotels. They didn't have it the way they do now, and he traveled by train and then, so I came home and I told my mother the good news, and she was delighted to hear it, and she said, “Oh, Anna, please go to Binghamton. Your sisters are getting older now and they—they could work and help us.” My father was a miner and he wasn't getting any money, you know. So, mother had a garden and she had chickens and she had everything, we lived off that—rather, my family lived, of course I was working—and I came to Binghamton and it was June 15, 1915. I'll never forget that was a rainy one. I came here and I was soaked and, raining very hard that day and I was soakin’ wet, and my sister Julia which was next to me—
“If you come with me I'll find you a job.” So, while I was here—while I was here in Binghamton, I did not know a soul, nobody, and I stopped at the Press building and I looked in the dictionary to find out where the Russian are—I thought, wherever there are Russian Churches, then there are some Russian people and they would help me, and sure enough I—I took a streetcar and, I forget, an old factory, a cigar factory, people were in there and I could smell the odor from cigars, and that was something new—and I got off at the church right on Clinton Street, St. Michael's Church, and across the street I noticed a Russian name and I went in there and I spoke to him in Russian and he answered me, and I asked him that I'm a stranger and I'm looking for a house for my family and, ah, he said, “Well, there is—I don't know anything about it,” he said to me, “I couldn't tell you, but my wife is coming home. If you'll wait, she'll be here any minute,” and sure enough she came in and she said, “Yes, I'll take you to the lady on the corner of Charles and Grace Street, and the lady is giving up her apartment.”
So, I went in there with Mary Driscoll, her name was Driscoll, and she spoke to the lady for me and I told her and she said, “Yes, I'm moving out right now,” but I thought, who owned the property? But I supposed that she was the landlord, and she told me that was Dr. Hutchings on Front Street so I went there, all in one day I did all that. I went there and I met this doctor and I told him my story, my sad story, and he was very kind and very helpful and he said, “Ah, I'll rent you this house as soon as you can get here and I'll help you all I can.” So he, ah, I said, “Well, we have nothing—nothing to bring over, because everything was burned down.” My mother was living with her sister and so I—I stayed here one day and then I went to the shoe factory, Dunn McCarthy's, and ah, I wanted to talk to the foreman or the superintendent, and ah, I met a very nice man and I—I should remember his name because he was, ah, wonderful to me. He talked to me like I was a child. He said, ""My dear girl,” he said, “you bring your sisters here and I'll give them a job, and bring your father and I'll give him a job too.” So I felt, I was delighted, and ah, ah, I was on the verge to go back to the hotel because I know my manager there would be displeased that I left, and ah, I said, “Ah, I have to go back to Carbondale to my job and they gave me only one day off,” and ah, so we hurried, we hurried and hurried and I wanted to get off and, anyway, I had everything arranged, and we said, “Dr. Hutchings” —I think that was, ah, his name, Dr. Hutchings—they used to live by up there, it's hard to say up there, you know, from the corner, the third house up there, you know. I think probably it's still there. He said, “I won't charge you any rent, I won't expect anything from you, whatever you can do,” so I—I didn't have to pay any rent any—anyway, I didn't have any money and, ah, see, I don’t know what to say.
Yes—so this neighbor, the next door neighbor from the house that we were going to move into, they were Slavish [Slavic] people—I think their name was Kusmach. I asked them if my sister could stay there all night with them—with them while I go home and break the news and my family would come here right away, and then she stayed there, she began to cry, Julia did. She thought, she's among strangers, you know, and she was, oh, about fifteen years old and, ah, well anyway, Julia, you have a job and there are two girls in the family there and they have supported her too, because they were working too, so then I said goodbye to her and she cried and I cried too. I came to the station. I was on my way to the station in the rain the next day. I had to spend the night over in the neighbors’ house and, ah, the next day I was going to the station, and Mr. Hart and Mr. Bennett, the two salesmen that had told me to come here, I ran into them, or rather they ran into me, and he said, “What are you doing here, Anna?”
And I said, “Well, Mr. Bennett, you told me to go to Lestershire, so I came to Lestershire and I have everything arranged,” and they were very surprised that I did it so quickly, so then I said, ah, and then Mr. Bennett and Mr. Hart said to me, “Well, where are you going? What are you going to do?”
I said, “Well, I'm going back to the American Hotel because Mr. & Mrs. McCann will be cross with me that I'm taking off,” and they took me by the arm and they said, “You're not going back there, you're working like a slave there and it's too much for you. We're going to introduce you to a hotel manager here,” and they took me to the Bennett Hotel. That's the Bennett at that time, and it was a very nice hotel at that time. They introduced me to the manager, I think his name was Mr. Proseman, and his beautiful wife, and ah, Mr. Proseman said that I was a very fine girl and I was supporting my son, and he told them the story and, ah, they gave me the job right away and I was there for about a year, and when some other friends that recognized me in the lobby, some of the people who remembered me from Carbondale saw me there working there and, ah, Mr. Bennett, waiting on the table that I waited on the manager and his wife—I just had one table, just the family, and ah, so I felt kind of proud, you know, that they chose me among all the others, you know, so I felt kind of, well, I was, I was just, ah, very happy about it, that everything, that I had so many friends that were helping me and I was, they just, ah—they were so pleased I’d do whatever they suggested, everything. I and, ah, I, ah, I called, well anyway, I said, “All right, I'll have to go back to Carbondale and give my notice that I'm coming,” and I went back and the manager and his wife didn't want to let me go. They didn't want to pay me, but they said, “You gotta stay here,” and I said, “I can't, I promised I'm going there,” and I said, “My family is going there,” and my little boy was, you know, with my mother, and my son was going to be a year and half old and, ah, I said, “Wherever he's gonna be, I ought to be there too.” So they were very reluctant to let me go. They didn't like it and, ah, so as I said in the—I worked only one year at the Bennett and one of the other guests recognized me and they said, “We can find you a better place than this to work,” so they went to the Arlington Hotel and spoke to Mr. Turney—the old gentleman Turney was in there, you know, there at that time. They spoke to him and told him about me and that I was a hard worker and a very decent girl and all that, and of course they were giving me all that recommendation, I didn't have to tell them all that about myself, but ah, they all felt sorry for me that I had such big responsibilities, and the guests were always very nice to me in every hotel wherever I worked, and ah, finally, ah, I got the job at the Arlington and I left the Bennett, which was not a nice thing to do because they were nice to me, I had no reason to leave to leave, but ah, ah, they thought that I would do better at the Arlington, which I did because they gave me more money and that helped. I had to give so much money to my mother to help her towards my son's support and his clothes and everything, and ah, of course at that time, before that, I was separated from my husband but he wasn't supporting me. He was working on the railroad and he was drinking and he just didn't care about—about the baby or me or anything. He never gave me any money, so I just—I just left him—I couldn't—I didn't want to continue living with him and have any more—-
I stayed at the Arlington for five years, then I went to New York City and I started working at the Statler Hotel, which was only there two years before, and I, ah— I was there only a year at this hotel, and then I noticed they were opening up a beauty parlor on the mezzanine floor and I had an interview myself, I kept thinking about my poor sisters working in the shoe factory and I thought, what a wonderful idea it would be if they would take, ah, beauty parlor work and, ah, go into that kind of work. I couldn't afford to—to work at the salaries that the learners in those days, they didn't have beauty—beauty schools like they have now, ’cause we had to work in the beauty parlor as an apprentice and you only got $12.00 a week. A girl that just took up hair and keep the box filled, and so I got my sister in New York and she got the job at the President, at the, they called it “Pennsylvania,” the Statler Hotel, and she was there for a while, and I had to leave her because my mother had a big twelve-family apartment in Binghamton and she thought that I should be with her, that I, that she couldn't get along without me being there to help her with the, and she wrote me that I'm breaking up her home by taking my sisters away, and I left the Statler Hotel to be with my mother, to help her with that big property she got. And my sister liked New York so well she stayed, and she had been modeling and—and ah, she made good money and she stayed about two years, but while I was here trying to help my mother with that big twelve-family apartment house and she came back—finally she came back and then I said, “Well, I'm going to look around Binghamton and see if we can find a little place where we can start a little beauty parlor.”
Of course my sister took up marcel waving, we were the first people that had that method, you know, when we came here. She took that up in New York, and of course Dorothy, too, was a manicurist and—my second sister—and so the two of them had a little training and so I found a location in a beauty parlor, I ran around Binghamton and asked different people what to do with it. Get a good place and my lawyer, my family lawyer, Mr. Polletta, told me to talk to Mr. Tyler, which was the superintendent of the Press building at the time, and I spoke to Mr. Tyler, rather, Mr. Polletta spoke to him first, and he gave me a little room that had only two chairs and two dryers and two manicuring tables—of course I had to buy my equipment in New York. They didn't have any equipment up here in Binghamton and so I had to order it there, and Mother came to New York and gave me the money for the equipment and begged me to come home with tears in her eyes, and I agreed to come home and bring the girls back home and so they, my sisters wanted to stay away because they found more opportunities, and finally, when I opened the beauty parlor and Martha and I were the first two that were working there.
Susan: Can you recall any of the prices at that time?
Anna: Oh yes, the manicures were 50¢ and our shampoo was 50¢ and of course the only big item, they were the highest, was the permanent wave, which I was doing, that was my specialty—I charged $6.00. I had the beauty parlor where I'd have to go to New York to the hairdressers’ show every six months, take, just take up the Eugene Wave by Mr. Eugene himself, personally gave me the instructions. That was the marcel wave, the permanent wave, they used to call it a Marcel, so then my sister Martha was Miss Martha, she was giving a marcel with an iron, you know, but I was, so we made a big hit in Binghamton, and then we outgrew the beauty parlor, it was too small for the business. It just boomed the first year that we were there. We were there only a year. I spoke to Mr. Tyler that—that I'd like to move into a larger room, and he said that Judge Parson is moving away from—he's giving up his position and he's right on a corner, he has two rooms. Then he said I could take the partition down and you could enlarge it, would be an L-shaped beauty parlor for you, but you could have as many booths as you want, so I said that would be fine, so Mr. Tyler the superintendent was very nice to me. He suggested it and I—I thought, of course, it was a good idea, so I said, “I'd appreciate it very much, I think, if you would do that, because I have two other sisters that are ready to come in with me, and we wouldn't fit in this little room we have here.” They did it in a hurry, and they did special piping for us and also drains from each booth, from the shampooing booth. We had seven shampoo booths and three manicuring tables and one barber chair—hair-cutting chair, and I have some pictures of that and, ah, we did very good business, and, and of course all my sisters were in by that time, they, all four of us—five of us, and I—I was about, I used to give six and seven permanents a day, and I got terribly run down and I got a cold one day, and I just thought, “Well, maybe I need a change, I'll go to New York, maybe I just need a change,” I thought, you know, because I had so much responsibility, so I packed my little bag and I went.
My mother didn't approve, my sisters didn't, nobody approved of me going, but I said, “I'm getting away from everything, I can't take it.” I didn't realize I was sick, although my doctor kept telling me that I'm going to get sick and he threatened me that I'm going to get sick. He told his wife was a customer of mine, his daughter was my customer, and his aunt, and they all saw how hard I worked. I used to work from 8 o'clock until 10 every night and I never had time to eat my lunch, and if I did I—I had indigestion, and the doctor said before I go to lunch, to lay down for a minute before I go—he said, “If you don't be careful you're going to get TB.” Dr. Arfonse said that to me, and I said, “Ah, no,” I said, “I'm not going to get TB. I'll be all right.”
So I just packed my suitcase and I went to New York and I went to Sachs Fifth Avenue, New York, and I talked to the manager there about a job and he gave it to me. I was working there about four months, when one day I had a spell while I was on duty and, ah, there were two—four girls there, they were Russian girls there, they were from Russia, and they were only shampoo girls, they were really, they came, they were refugees from Russia here and they didn't know nothing about hair work, but the only thing they could do was wash the hair, and they saw that I looked sick and then they took me over to the clinic, it was on the ninth floor, and the doctor and the nurse said they had one room, just like a hospital, and they found that I had TB. They sent me away for a year and then I came back home cured, and I couldn't go back to the beauty parlor because there was something about the cosmetics that I would cough and I—I thought, well, I'd sit at the desk and just get the appointments, prepare the customers, and let the girls do the rest. We had thirteen girls working there by that time, colored girls, too, and we were teaching girls beauty work, and I know my uncle came here from Pittsburgh and he'd say, “I don't know why you’re teaching anybody, they're going to take business away from you,” which they did, but it—it didn't hurt us, and ah, because the business kept booming and, ah, so I, ah, was managing it from the house, and the girls would come home and tell my mother that “Anna's coughing too much,” and they were trying to keep my condition secret from my customers, nobody didn't know, so then my mother said, “Why don't you stay home, Anna, and we have a big house, a 22-room house on Court Street there, why don't you do something with this? You seem to know what to do,” so I said the only thing I could think of is start a tourist house now that I'm sick and can't work in the beauty parlor anymore for another year, the doctors say I can't go to the beauty parlor for another year until they pronounce me arrested—my case arrested. I had to go to the doctor every month to be X-rayed and questioned, and so I started the tourist business, and that business boomed, you know, and I ran that for thirteen years.
And talk about, my mother got sick, gallbladder, and she, she didn't get up in time, she got this palsy, you know, so that when she got down here she needed me, so I was a nurse, I was taking care of my mother and I was running the tourist house. I used to have thirty people in my house every night during the summer, and I had to show them the rooms, go run outdoors and show them where to park the cars. I did that for thirteen years and then my mother passed away and then, you know, she passed away, and ah, then I had another breakdown after she died, with pleurisy on my bad lung, and I was in the hospital eleven weeks, and the doctor hollered at my doctor and he shook his finger at me that I'm not being fair to myself, but he pulled me through—I—I—I had a 103 temperature for eleven weeks and he called my daughter-in-law, by that time my son was married, and he told my daughter-in-law the things that that I did, but ah, by that the family wanted to sell the house, they thought it was too much for me and they all wanted to get out and on their own, they were getting married and I didn't want to sell it because I wanted a home, I wanted something, if I knew I was going to live to this age I would have fought it more, I would have kept it, but I thought, “I'm finished,” because my family gave me up so many times, then I had a second breakdown after we sold the house I had another breakdown of my lungs and I was at Chenango Bridge and I'm still here and, but I still didn't give up, I got back on my feet and started working again and, ah, I, ah, the family pressed me so hard to sell, sell, sell, that I finally gave up and I sold it. So then I wasn't welcome anyplace, I—I just didn't know what to do. What am I going to do? I—I—
Susan: So what year did you come to the high rise?
Anna: Well, I came to the high rise in 1968, when they just opened it. I'm here ten years, and well, well, first I—I traveled with a suitcase, I went all over, you know, and the money that I had from the property, you know, seventeen years I was doing nothing, just traveling with a suitcase, trying to make myself live someplace. I didn't know where I belonged, and ah, as for a job, they said they didn't want anybody at my age, which was around forty, and I was around forty, and ah, I, no matter what I did, I was a telephone operator, I worked on a switchboard, worked at the New York City hotel and I worked at the switchboard in the front here and I had all this experience and they didn't want to give me a job because of my age, so I said, “What am I going to do?” I just retired. Well I lived off the few hundred thousand dollars that I got for seventeen years but then the money was gone, so, I was older and I said, “What am I going to do now?” so I had another good friend at the Bennett Hotel, and he, and I told him my story and he and his wife—and he was Mr. Lamb, I guess everybody in town knows him and about my story—and he says, “Well, I can help you, all I can say is a good work for you to go on welfare,” so I said, “Yes, I will go on welfare,” but I didn't—my family and my son didn't know anything about it, that I was doing that, I was very independent, I never went to any of them for a dollar or a coin—or anything, I'm kind of independent and I was too spunky, you know, my mother and father used to say to me, “I never seen anything like you, if you make up your mind you’rer gonna do it.” I still do, but ah, so then people were very kind to me, the urban renewal people, ah, ah, Margarette, ah, ah, what's her name? She's in the office over here. I can't think of her name now, she was very kind to me and she said I was living at the Arlington, I was on welfare already and of course welfare were giving me only $85.00 a month and I had to pay $50.00 rent, so what did I have left? So I used to do—I used to help a lot of little old ladies take them someplace and they'd buy my meal and, ah, or I used to sew, I could sew. I was a dressmaker for three years and then my eyesight failed—failed me, and I managed that way, but I always meet nice people that were always very helpful to me all the time, not that I—I didn't go to them purposefully to tell them my sad story, but ah, I—I wanted to get along as best I could, so then, ah—ah, well, we were living at the Bennett, you know the place was condemned, the Bennett hotel, and we were living there. There were about twenty of us ladies living there, and ah, I couldn't make—I couldn't make ends meet so I used to take care of another sick lady, but ah, retired from Washington, from the Pentagon, and she—I used to escort her around and she used to buy my lunches for me. I used to escort her around town, and well, after that we had to move out of there. We were there, I was there about six years at the Bennett, and then the Urban Renewal moved us to the Arlington. We were supposed to be there only one year, but instead of that we figured two years waiting for this to be finished, so then, ah, they'd moved me here, they ah, Urban [Renewal] moved my furniture and they bought furniture that I have here. It's from the Arlington, they bought it for me through the welfare, I don't know who paid for it, and some of the odd pieces were given to me that I have, but ah, so I have been here ever since.
Susan: Well, Anna, I think that we can close by saying that you have a very lovely attractive apartment so that you are comfortable.
Anna: Well, a lot of people say that to me, but ah, when, ah, I was running the tourist house, you know, the guests used to come in and say that I had the cleanest house, that I used to have the cleanest rooms of any tourist house that they ever had, and they always came. We used to have a lot of flowers around the house. I had a lot of boxes, and I know I had a hairdresser from New York City stop and he said, he had his family with him and he said, “We went all over Binghamton and my family wanted to go in that house where all the beautiful flowers are,” so they would come in, and they would come in and they saw—I must say so, but I had the flowers, and everybody that came in that had children, they said that it was the cleanest, neatest place, and I had fifteen rooms to rent, sometimes I had thirty people in one night in the house, and I had all that laundry to take care of and I had all those beds to make myself. I was doing it myself, too, and, but then I did break down after my mother died.
Susan: Well, now let's finish the story by telling the people how old you are—you've lived through a great deal.
Anna: Yes, well I—I'm 87 years old now and I don't know how much longer I'm going to live, because everybody tells me I don't look my age.
Susan: You don't look your age, you're a very, very attractive woman.
Anna: But ah, I have this, ah, chest condition—chest pains now, and I don't know, lately it's been kind of, they've been kind of, although I have a very good doctor, he shakes his finger at me.
Susan: Well, let's just hope for the best. Thank you very much for the interview, Mrs. Borsuk.
",,,,"34:55 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Anna Borsuk",,,,1978-03-06,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Borsuk, Anna -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Pittsburgh (Pa.); Beauty shops; Tuberculosis -- Patients -- Interviews; Single mothers -- Interviews",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f56fb6173268435ba1e46feb34826063.pdf,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d14f8cd82f5d117973cebf43420452d1.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 508,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/508,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"35:15 Minutes ; 16:46 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Marie Nejame Freije",,"Freije, Marie Nejame ; Politylo, Nettie",,"audio/mp3 ","Freije, Marie Nejame -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Lebanon; Johnson City (N.Y.); Bridal shops; Businesswomen -- Interviews; Cooking, Lebanese; World War, 1914-1918","Marie Nejame Freije talks about her upbringing in Lebanon, and her family's flight from the country to Egypt due to war and the grueling nine day journey that almost killed her. She discusses running a bridal shop in Johnson City, NY after coming to the United States. After 38 years, she retired and married. She details Lebanese culture and foods, as well as the fundraisers in which she participates that benefits St. Jude's Hospital and area high school students. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries","1978-03-06 ; 1978-04-06","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 23 ; Recording 24",,"Politylo, Nettie","Freije, Marie Nejame",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Marie Nejame Freije
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Dates of interviews: 6 March 1978 and 6 April 1978
[Interview #1: 6 March 1978]
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Marie Freije of 60 Mathews St., Binghamton, NY, on March 6, 1978. Marie, do you want to start telling me about your recollections of your life when you came from Lebanon?
Marie: OK—I was born in Lebanon and we lived most of our life in Egypt, and the winters, we spent our winters in Egypt and in the summer in Lebanon, up until and then we were caught in Lebanon during the First World War and we were spending our summer there. And from there, we spent the, spent the four years in Lebanon and in Arabia. We had to go to Arabia to get away from the war, that's from the Turks-dominated Lebanon. That's when my brother, Fred, was with Lawrence of Arabia who worked for the King of Arabia. And we finally came to Egypt before the war ended—four months before—and that's where I went to school—in French schools—private schools, and in 1922 we came to this country. I was 15 years old, entered schools here. We lived in Syracuse, where I attended high school and College of Music—that was a major in music. In 1932 we came to Binghamton, therefore I consider Binghamton my hometown, but I enjoyed life here in the community. In 1938, my brother and I went into business—opened up a ladies dress shop specializing in bridals in Johnson City. We carried the store for 38 years, enjoyed the many friends, the customers who I've made a lot of friends with.
I belong to many clubs and do a lot volunteer work, Business and Professional Women's Clubs for, that's in Triple Cities, Johnson City Catholic Daughters, Civic Club, Our Ladies of Lebanon Club, American Civic Association, and was also President of Business and Professional Club and President, twice, Ladies of Lebanon Club. I have enjoyed being active in the community, made many, many, many friends. In 1972, I closed my business and went to Lebanon on two trips. It was very enjoyable because I never knew Lebanon too well, which is my mother country. Because we—little girls didn't travel too much at that time, so we would spend the summer months there and winter months in Egypt, as I said before. Therefore, it was a new experience for me, and I think it was the most beautiful country. It makes you feel sad that what has happened to it during the past three years.
Now, I was married in 1970 to Louis Frieje, and we've been very, very happy, and I still meet a lot of my friends. I belong, still, to all of the clubs. It is most enjoyable that part of my life and my business was making friends. Now, I don't know what else you’d like to know. I—
Nettie: Marie, did your husband have a business of his own?
Marie: Yes, he had but is retired.
Nettie: What type of business did he have?
Marie: He was in the restaurant business.
Nettie: What restaurant was that?
Marie: Freije Grill on Clinton St. That's where all his brothers had their businesses—Freije Electric, Freije Wall and Paint Store—and they have all retired, of course, and they are enjoying life very, very much.
At the present time, there's something—may be of interest to you, being that we have no children, either him or I—we sponsored my husband's grandnephew from Lebanon to come here and live with us and put him through school. He came in 1976, December of '76. In 1977—January, we put him through Broome Tech, where he is a student now, studying Electric Technology and Computer and English. He will graduate in two years. In 1977 he had met a lovely Lebanese girl, who is a Lab Technician at Lourdes Hospital, and were married and living with us. They are a delightful couple. It is good to have young people around the house because I have always loved children—my nieces and nephews are like my own children. We are a very closely knit family—both the Freijes and my family by the name of Nejame. My brother, my younger brother who was in business, and his family is still running the business in Johnson City—which is called Hi-Fi Record and Tape Shop. They have had it for about 40 years, also. My brother is deceased, therefore, the children are running the business and have been very successful also, very well known through the area.
Nettie: Oh, that sounds very interesting and I think that was very nice of you to sponsor someone like that, to make someone happy plus yourself.
Marie: We're delighted to do that.
Nettie: Marie, why don't you tell me more about the store—go into the store—I think it was fascinating.
Marie: The gown shop—my gown shop, of course, after 21 years I gave up the bridals and went into sportswear—mainly as the sportswear business was flourishing and that was the thing to do. Besides, after my brother passed away in 1959—ah 1947, I beg your pardon—it was, you know, I have to run the business all alone, and of course, it was difficult to work nights and days, also. So, I turned it into a sportswear business and I loved it very much. I finally was getting a little too old to run it anymore. (Laughing). I'm 70 years old now—so I thought it was time to relax and pay attention to my music and to my wonderful husband, and we've done some traveling, of course.
We went twice to Lebanon since I was married, in 1970 and 1972. We were going back to Lebanon in 1974 and the war broke, so that took care of that. And—but—really—due to my—in regards to my business, thank God, we had a very successful business and as I see my customers, now, all over the Triple Cities when I meet them on the streets, markets, and in clubs which I am still very active, they—I'm almost ashamed to say it, but they do miss my store very much.
Nettie: Yes, we all do, Marie.
Marie: I certainly made many hundreds of friends, and in fact it, just about two weeks ago I had my, as a guest here, my first bride whom I outfitted—very, very first one. When I got married she sent me a prayer, in a picture—framed picture which I have in my kitchen, and I see her every morning, noon, and night. (Laughing). And she visited me last—two weeks ago, and we had a very good time altogether—reminiscence over friends and over old times and what have you.
Nettie: Sounds interesting—Marie—I’m sorry—pardon me.
Marie: When I came here, not knowing that we were to remain here in this country, and so—after I went to school—and we all loved it here, and my mother, father, and my three brothers—I'm the only girl and the youngest in the family—imagine me, 70 years old, the youngest in the family. (Laughing). So, but, my intention was to be a concert pianist, turned out to be in business. (Laughing).
Nettie: In business—you did very well.
Marie: Certainly.
Nettie: We do miss you!
Marie: But I still love my music. I follow it up—have time to practice—
Nettie: Something you love—
Marie: Yes, yes, I do!
Nettie: Marie, will you tell me about the Lebanese people—their culture, traditions, maybe some foods?
Marie: Well, yes, now, that's something of great interest—were that now—when I got married, I didn't know a thing about cooking—(Laughing)—because I never had the time for it, but since then I have became a gourmet cook—even in Arabic—in our Lebanese food—and I love it. Of course, now, you know they—the last few years, they’ve been talking so much about—[door bell rings]. That's all right.
[pause]
Nettie: Marie, we'll continue now.
Marie: As I started to tell you before—the last few years they—been talking about health foods and health food stores opening up—even the markets are starting to carry health foods. Our Lebanese people—the culture—we’ve been raised on health foods since we were children, and we still do. Take, for instance, your wheat germ—that, they sell today and tell you how to do it—your lentils—it's all health food stores—health foods—and yogurt, which has become very popular, they are talking so much about it as being very healthy. This is something that we have lived on—all our life. Our bread is made with the health—what you call flour—is very healthy food. We—the Lebanese cook mostly at home rather than go out to eat, because we have such variety. Now, at our table you'll find three kinds of olives, two different kinds of cheeses that we make out of the yogurt—we make the hard cheese that looks like the American cream cheese, for instance, but a little bit tarty—we have oil on the side with it, our cheese, which I learned to make myself, and all this—so—all our preserves, jams—we make ourselves—and in our food you have, in one dish you could have a balanced meal. You have your sauté meat, which we use mostly lamb rather than beef—we use very little beef—except for roasts, you know—and have your meat—your vegetable—could be okra, could be asparagus, could be peas or beans, and with tomato sauce—that's your main dish, and cooked rice—on the side—not boiled—but it’s cooked so that it would have a flavor to it, you know—butter—and—so—and a salad. Therefore, you have a balanced meal right there, you see—but no Lebanese table is complete unless you have your olives and cheese on the table after you have your regular meal. That, you'll find that practically in every Lebanese home. And we have a tremendous variety of dishes—tremendous. I don't think you will find that in a, really, many European or American dishes—great variety. As I said before, it's all health food.
Now in regards to our way of living—mode of living—we are very—Lebanese people are a very close-knit together—very friendly and really very highly educated. You never hear of any Lebanese, whether in this town or any town, that has gone wrong—that has gone to jail, that has done any destructiveness or anything—you hardly hear anything like that—good law-abiding citizens, and very friendly and very active. Most of the Lebanese people in this town, especially, in the area, are in business and are successful and have a good name—I'll vouch for that. Wherever you go, it really is the same thing—there—the ladies are very cooperative and friendly and take good care of themselves and their families—they dress very well.
Nettie: Marie, you are a very good example of what you are saying.
Marie: Thank you. Anything else you'd like to know?
Nettie: Well, do you have any other recollections you would like to tell me?
Marie: Well, you might like to have a little idea how we spent our years in Arabia—during the First World War.
Nettie: That would be interesting.
Marie: Excuse me, as I said before, we were in Lebanon and we couldn't get out because they closed the Mediterranean Sea, so we had to stay there. My uncle, that is my mothers's brother, who was a general in the, then Syrian Army, at the time. Because after the First World War Syria and Lebanon were divided—see—and so we—he sent us to Arabia—not Saudi Arabia—this Arabia is another section beyond Syria, and of course, I was only about six years old at the time, and over there, in Arabia, the Sheiks happen to be very dear friends of my uncle in Egypt, who was the Secretary of the Sudan. You hear a lot about Sudan these days—Sudan at the time was under the, both Egypt and Sudan was under the English government, and my uncle was Secretary to the Sirdar, like a governor—the government—you know—Sirdar, they call it. He was a very prominent man—in fact, was decorated by the Queen Victoria. And from there, my brother, Fred, who was only seventeen years old at the time, and my younger brother, Arthur, and my mother and I, we were there for three years. Through these Sheiks, my brother Fred, who was working for the Emir Faisal in the—means “Prince”—Faisal of Arabia, who later became King of a—ah—ah—Arabia (Iraq), and he was working with Lawrence of Arabia and was decorated by Emir Faisal, and through him we were able to get to Egypt on an English boat—English war boat—we—ah— Did you ever see the Lawrence of Arabia movie?
Nettie: Yes, I did.
Marie: Well, that's us—there. (Laughing). Yeah—that experience, I have pictures and see—but I forgot this part—where we're leaving Arabia—we went on camel back for nine days. The year before, I take this back, the year before, my brother Fred took my young brother, Arthur, too, and put him in school in Egypt and he came back. The following year, Mother and I and Fred we went to—we're going back to Egypt, and we stayed at Faisal’s in the Aqaba area—that's another part of the picture where—and we went on camel’s back for nine days and nine nights and he had, he was coming back—see, to Arabia to take the soldiers—we had 600 camels and 900 soldiers—and we—day before we're to arrive in Aqaba—where Emir Faisal was—he—we—had outlaws hitting us with a—that's which called machine—caravan—with sub-machine guns, and I was riding the dromedary—I made my brother valet, must as well call them valet, pulling them on the camel—you know—make him walk—and I went on dromedary—that's the one—the hump—you know—dromedary, and because where I was before—I was riding on the camel with my mother—made like a tent—see—my mother on one side and me on the other. You know how little girls, they get—(Laughing)—as flat as I was—I get fidgety—I wanted to drive by the dromedary so as we were riding, and these sub-machines came at us—the bullet just passed my face and he grabbed me and threw me down—luckily we were going down into a little valley—which is unusual in a desert, you know—and of course, of all crew came out with machine guns, and they—we escaped those outlaws, and then that night we were in tents and they're going to kidnap me—see, they had me dressed as a boy—and in fact, later on, King Faisal presented me with a dagger, which I still have, yet. And my brother, too, he took his own dagger, which only carried by royalty, was put here on display in Binghamton and Johnson City when we first came here—was written up in the Press. It was a really beautiful thing, which my nephew has now—Fred's son in New York. And it was really quite, quite an ordeal, to—well—especially after I saw the Lawrence of Arabia, I said, ""Dear, if only my brother was here.""
Nettie: To see that—
Marie: To see that, you know, he died but we had quite a fascinating life.
Nettie: I think it is—what should I say, “exciting”? It was very exciting.
Marie: Yes—yeah—yeah, but—The reason we came here, my brother Fred, who was, after the war—when we were in Egypt already—he was working for the French Embassy, through my uncle who was a doctor. He was in politics a lot, so he got him a job at the French Embassy. But what happened, we had to escape here, and because the King's entourage—they were all Muslims, and he was the only Christian amongst them, so—of course—there was that jealousy—they were after him—after his neck—that, for my uncle sent him over here, because my brother and my dad were here, see. My brother—was—my oldest brother was at Columbia University, and so—ah—we came here—we had to escape from these people who were after him—you know—so that when they came here for a year or so—maybe they'll, you know, forget all about him, and then my younger brother—we put him in school, so—went, let's see, on 1918-1922, and they were here—and the, so we thought we'd come, my mother and I, would come here—my aunts and uncles did not want us to come here at all. She said, “Even if I die on the boat, I want to go and see my children and bring them back, and my husband."" So, we finally came in 1922, and we stayed here and we liked it very much that we never went back, our family was here.
Nettie: Marie, that was exciting.
Marie: See, my father came here before the war—because he came to visit his brother—he had his business here. He was a cabinet maker in Lebanon, and he came—his business was still going on—he came to visit his brother—then the war broke, so he didn't go back, and he stayed here throughout the whole war, then I didn't know my father until I came to this country, now my oldest brother— So it was an quite exciting life—a wonderful life together.
Nettie: Guess so—
Marie: Wonderful life together. We are a closely knit family—we all live together—we—
Nettie: I thought the Lebanese were that way. I think it is very nice.
Marie: Like the young lady from Harpur was interviewing me about the—our people—especially our old people. She said—I said, “We don't throw out our old people—we take care of them.” I said my mother was 92 years old, and my sister-in-law and I took care of her. None of our Lebanese people put our old people in nursing homes or forget about them—they always live with one of the children, they are well taken care of, which is something we are proud of—it is our background—we can't help it.
Nettie: I think if some of our children, some of our people took heed on people like that—maybe they would turn their life around and make nice things, different for the elderly.
Marie: Sure, they must remember that they, they're gonna be old someday. How would they like to be thrown out any old way in a nursing home or private home of some sort? Because, well, it just isn't right—that’s all, the fact that we’ll all get old, what’s going to happen to us.
Nettie: You have to think ahead, too.
Marie: This way your children would know how your grandparents were taken care of, and maybe they would learn a thing or two and just pass down the generations. Yes, that's something our generation of foreign extraction should never forget, their culture of their heritage.
Nettie: I agree with you.
Marie: They should be proud of it. There's a book written by Ted Roosevelt, and one of the passages is, ""If you were not—uh—uh—this—you could only make a good American citizen if you don't forget your heritage.”
Nettie: That's very nice.
Marie: That's, we loved this country—that's why we remained here, and you can't beat this country anywhere in the world, but we still love our country, too. And we're proud to say we're Lebanese. You could be proud to say your own background from which your parents came from, should never forget it. Believe me, I think the American people—we're all American now, but outside of the Indians, naturally, they respect us more now because they understand us more, the world is getting smaller, you know, so—they appreciate the various cultures of the different nationalities of their background, you know, and all of us should be very proud of it and not be ashamed of.
Nettie: I know I am.
Marie: We make good citizens, even though we were not born here, we abide by the law, I'm sure all foreign extraction people do—so people are very interested. (Laughing).
Nettie: Is that all you want to tell me? Is there anything you want to add to that?
Marie: Well, let me see now. All I can say, I'm a little sorry I'm not a little younger so I could go back into business—
Nettie: That's right—I know what you mean. And start all over again.
Marie: Thank God I have my health, have my good husband, my comfortable home. I love my music, and I still am active in all the clubs and help people and everything else. Our Lebanese club is a small club, but active in the community, we hold a dance in the Fall always—and the proceeds go to St. Jude's Hospital for the children—retarded children, and then we hold a card party in the spring—that's for our scholarship fund—we give the three high schools and any student that school feels needs it—you know—give three, three scholarships—that's about it—you know.
Nettie: Marie, that was very interesting, and I want to thank you very much for the interview.
Marie: I want to thank you for asking me. I hope it's worth your while.
Nettie: I'm sure it is.
[Interview #2: 6 April 1978]
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Marie Freije of 60 Matthews St., Binghamton, NY, on April 6, 1978. Marie, we will go back to the interview you had the last time, and tell me more about the camel trip you took across the desert in nine days and nights.
Marie: I'll be glad to—try to recollect everything that we went through. To begin with, we were living in the—what they call the Arabian Mountains, and my brother, Fred, who was at the time 18 years old, and that he joined the First World War, and he was associated with Prince Faisal of Arabia, who later became King of Iraq. The Prince sent him to the mountains to fetch about 1000 soldiers, but they were pro-French and they were fighting against the Turks. My brother was taking my mother and I back to Egypt where we lived—so, my mother and I traveled along with the caravan of 600 camels and about 1100 soldiers, most of them, naturally, on foot. The trip to Aqaba, where Faisal was, took us nine days and nine nights through the Arabian desert. Now we, my mother and I rode the camel. They built a basket—big basket on top of the camel for us to lay in and they had a cover (net) to protect us from the sun and the sand. Fortunately, we did not come across any sandstorms at that time of the year—so, and—we were at times running short of water, as there was very little water in the desert—just what come across probably two or three oases where there would be a pond of water, dirty water with scum and what we to—mother would use her veil—thin veil—put it over the water so we could drink from it—take water and carry it ’til the next stop that we will find another oasis. On the way, about two days before we reached Aqaba, we came across outlaws that are in the distance. They started shooting on us with submachine guns, but fortunately we—that was about the first time that we were down in the valley, because usually the sand—I mean—the desert is all flat—mostly, and the whole caravan started to go down—before that—I wanted to ride the dromedary, which, it would be a young camel—which is the one hump. I made my brother's valet go down so I could ride his dromedary. I was about six years old—six and a half—and—so was riding it—that's when the outlaw was shooting at us, and the bullet just about passed my ear. He grabbed me and got me down—if that hit me, I would not be here to tell the story. So, we went down and then the great big horde of men, Arabs, went up with machine guns, singing and hollering and they started shooting back at them—so, when the outlaws—so that—we are overpowering them, they took off but we have to be on the cover all the way to hold up the train—you might say—so that night we arrived at this Sheik's domain—in the desert. They lived in the tents there. This Sheik is under the governorship of the Prince, so we were treated royally, and they gave my mother, I, and our maid a tent by ourselves, and they had guards. So, when the guards were not there during the evening—now before going to sleep, the maid was combing my hair, which was way down to my hips, and then one of the Arab boys started to peek through the tent and one would tell the other, ""Didn't I tell you this was a girl, and it's not a boy?” because they had me dressed as a boy to be disguised, because it wasn't safe for a white girl to be dressed in a dress, and below the ear and stood it top of the head—(supposedly hair) would kidnap her—so the maid heard them—and she ran out to my brother's tent and told him. So, the Sheik got hold of these boys, tied them up, and he put other guards around our tent for the night. The next day we traveled one full day to reach Aqaba, and we arrived and the Prince had accommodations for the women—meaning, my mother and I, and our maid who’d take care of us. We were there one week. My brother was commended by Prince Faisal for doing such a fine job and accumulating all these soldiers to be—he took the—dagger, which only royalty wear, which was solid gold, dagger with all precious stones—and put it on my brother's waist. We still have this dagger, which is very beautiful. As a matter of fact, the Prince gave me a dagger—black onyx, like with mother of pearl, and I was dressed with this Arab-like costume until we reached Egypt. It really was quite an experience.
Oh, I forgot to tell you, after we were attacked by these captives, by the outlaws, we ran across another attack—and this time was a boa (constrictor)—these huge snakes that stands up, all black, stands up in the air—it—well—it just could kill anybody—in the path, stand up like a pole, you know, and the men then shot with—several men shot with submachine guns and killed her. That was another bad, very bad and horrifying experience, that's why I’m afraid of snakes all my life, due to that experience.
Nettie: Are there many snakes like that out in the desert?
Marie: No, not too much, but those that are there are huge and deadly—they're deadly, yes, very much so.
Nettie: Marie, when you were going across the desert, you slept in the tent. How about the others?
Marie: They slept just on the sand—yes, oh yes, sitting up, sleeping any way they can find a little comfort—you call it comfort.
Nettie: What did you say that you had for food?
Marie: Food, they had to prepare, ’cause we had bread and cheese and hard-boiled eggs and other—some wheat germ that is cooked—you know—that you can eat cold, you know, with bread to last it for nine days. We were lucky to have enough food and water so that we didn't really starve or died of thirst—yes—we survived that—and then from there we went on an English boat—you know, to Alexandria, Egypt. We got—arrived there four months before the war ended. We stayed there ‘til 1922, when we came to this country.
Nettie: Marie, at one time you told me you took a trip with someone to Egypt, and I think it would be interesting to know about Egypt, plus telling us about Pyramids there.
Marie: Oh yes, I made my first trip back to Egypt and Lebanon in 1964, and my uncle was a doctor there—he took us all over, of course. I was a young girl when I left there, about fourteen years old, when I left Egypt to come to this country. It was a new experience again for me. Naturally, we went to the Pyramids and they're really something to see. It was beautiful, I got our pictures there.
Nettie: Marie, how would, say, the height of a pyramid would be, according to a—maybe a building around here?
Marie: Perhaps, if I can recollect , it could be something like to be probably, to be forty stories, that the highest one, then you have the middle one, then you have the small one, then you have the—then you—the middle one, the only one that has the tombs inside, where some of the Pharaohs and Princes and Queens are buried there—you have guards to take you in—is—rather frightening, I never went in—really—‘cause— (Laughing).
They are all man-made—as you know—in those—you, the Pharaohs—thousands of people died building it, and they carry all these stone on their backs all the way up, many of them would fall or get killed.
Nettie: They say they are made so perfect, is that right?
Marie: Well, perfect for those days, yes—they are not made putting with cement with each other, just—
Nettie: Isn't there anything else you want to tell us, or experiences you can tell us—
Marie: They had beautiful museums there that are really beautiful to see, and the mosques—Mohammed mosques that are very beautiful. The walls are—at least of couple of them that were there were made of alabaster—all the chandeliers are gold filigree, and this is another thing, when anybody has to go into the mosque you cannot go with your shoes—you take your shoes outside and the guard gives you linen slippers to tie on your feet to go in and see the mosque.
Nettie: That's what they call their Holy Place, isn't it?
Marie: Yes.
Nettie: I think at one time you told me something, the Pyramids—about a certain record that was made.
Marie: Oh yes, yes—they have—this is something that the Frenchman invented and wrote the book and developed a record—also, it is what they call ""Light and Sound."" It is done at night, because they—it's done in French, English, and Arabic at different nights—they have chairs like a theater, you know, and there's the commenter who commentates, you know—the narrator, I should say—and the light would be thrown on the, let's say, on the Sphinx, say, for an instance, and the voice would come out from the Sphinx and they would tell the history of Egypt and the Pharaohs and Queens, etc. It was beautiful—very beautiful. In fact they were thinking—it was written up here in the U.S. papers that they were trying to see if they could do it on Washington, D.C., but it never went through. It was something to see—fascinating—very interesting—they are talking about the certain one of the Pyramids, and then the light would go on and the sound would come out, as if it was coming from inside. It was beautiful.
Nettie: I don't recall anything else. Marie, do you have anything else to tell us?
Marie: No, I just wish that my brother was living at when they made the picture of Lawrence of Arabia, because him and Lawrence were together with King Faisal—they worked with King Faisal. Did you ever see the movie?
Nettie: Yes, I did, Marie.
Marie: Well I lived it—I lived it again—because that was, we were mixed up in it—you know. (Laughing).
Nettie: To you—it’s more interesting since you lived it than it, more than it would be to us. Well, Marie, I appreciate you telling us more about this. Thank you very much.
Marie: Thank you too.
",,,,"35:15 Minutes ; 16:46 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Marie Nejame Freije",,,,"1978-03-06 ; 1978-04-06",,"Broome County Oral History Project","Freije, Marie Nejame -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Lebanon; Johnson City (N.Y.); Bridal shops; Businesswomen -- Interviews; Cooking, Lebanese; World War, 1914-1918",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/349a6d9d2e7cfaf86458ae893b2a6174.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/82337a277720846eaf62afcf3088661e.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/841373e046d7330d1f04e630bc5489cb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/43f139922be3b112717d0773b3693ee5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a4632bf51d990091bd841df56b8c3e04.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/df857207a2b9986c328cb35de9b76eac.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/67d78057eac565c76b3904de1e02594b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b431e582ea83b295cf872629c5eb4982.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/05d5c6186ba260f5b2939769b7ebe6f6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/94a3239edb93f58a44a9212968c1a496.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/24b91faa3b09eff6a9a055be75de6d8f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/989570b6fe8bfaf31db94208e5875aa2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/076317dfc83ff0247a2179c76a7f6dc9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b7d12cbe7872b3700fbcbd88f1535f96.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/08cf31e180c2f1bbf5ddb801231aff28.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/191c56fc5b9ed0610ac28ae84d9754c5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/beb58a7ba3cd027a99ab3629c9cd8f01.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fb02751a009c3502217ae4952a4a7442.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a558c54c6f9cb5b863aecfdeb38fd011.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/aa4bf6f08407b8dbf2735624e7985e74.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c0827037e7a111d230734d4a58e7124a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/10a67fd0e010267baff4ab28f54b8fa9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ac51602166f65dddbca9c3fa2e5a3068.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/290caac500de8fa32c67ca35f0ce3eb4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0412a70bf2b00164cbfe80d91988654f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/43531ebe01b9e3a478c3437726a0e5ca.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f0ff6822bb49ce1f25f38ac695ae94b6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b0e86b569c84240af746acebc26746b5.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 1151,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1151,,,,,,,,,,2017-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"16:49 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Mabel Quick ",,"Quick, Mabel; Dobandi, Susan ",,,"Quick, Mabel -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.)","Mabel Quick speaks about growing up near Scranton and later in Nichols, N.Y. She discusses living and teaching in Johnson City. She discusses her ancestors coming to America from Europe, with particular focus on Tom Quick, her ancestor who purchased Staten Island from Native Americans. She discusses her membership in the Daughters of the American Revolution and related associations. She is an avid doll collector and has over 400 dolls with associated accessories; she discusses this collection and activities in which she participates related to this hobby. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries","1978-03-13 ","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 77 ",,"Dobandi, Susan","Quick, Mabel",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mabel H. Quick
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 13 March 1978
Susan: Miss Quick, could you tell us something about your early beginnings, where you were born and some of your recollections of your childhood?
Miss Quick: Yes, I could. I’d be glad to. I was born in Scranton way back in 1893. I grew up in West Pittston where my father was a dentist. Later we moved to Nichols, NY, and I grew up in the West Pittston schools under the name of John but when I reached New York State I was told that if I had another name I should use it because I was going to take Regents so in this community where I am now I became known with my old name Mabel. I taught school after graduating from Cortland in Johnson City for 40 long years but we really taught then we had classes that we were proud to pass on they could read—they could write—and teaching was wonderful. We were only earning $500 a year but we could with our increments reach $1800 a year that was the limit that we could go. Well, I lived here in Johnson City came here in 1917 when I started my teaching and this was a lovely town then to be a part of to live in and it really was a pleasure. Things have changed here now—old buildings have disappeared and new ones in their place but it’s still a place I’d like to live a long long time.
I came from good old English stock. The Quick name comes—a the Quicks really came from England although they say we have Irish and Dutch mixed in a little bit and my ancestors missed the Mayflower by 2 years. They went to Holland and I tell the girls we missed the Mayflower by two years and we’re missing things ever since but we get along the Quicks are kind of lively people and they settled—helped settle this country. I’m proud of that it’s a heritage that a lot of people don’t have and we do have old Tom Quick my ancestor the first one to come over from England, Holland bought Staten Island from the Indians for a bolt of cloth. The Quick silver is now in the Metropolitan Museum and a there’s an old chest desk in a museum in New Jersey made by old Tom was given to George Washington and signed. I wish I had that but of course I don’t but I have seen it and Tom’s oldest son got along beautifully with the Indians until they moved to Milford, Pennsylvania now. Another family came in and there was trouble over land grants and the Indians killed old Tom so Tom Jr. as we would say today sought revenge and he killed so many Indians that the government let him alone. He was not drafted for the Civil—a for the Revolutionary War and finally Tom got smallpox and died. The Indians couldn’t understand why he was put in the ground so they dug him up to see if he was dead and of course not having the techniques of medicine we have now the germs were still there the Indians caught the smallpox and Tom killed them even after he was dead. He is now—a the records we have in Cooperstown he is the character Natty Bumppo (clears throat) of ah (clears throat again) pardon me in James Fenimore Cooper’s Leatherstocking Tales so I have a good line. I’m proud of it. I joined the D.A.R., the Daughters of the Founders of the Patriots of America, the Daughters of the Colonial Colonial Colonies of America and now I expect sometime to go further with the Huguenots of the Colonial days. It’s a privilege and an honor as I see it. Many people would like to join but can’t. Their line is not complete but I like the genealogy and am glad that I have the opportunity of being one of the early American families.
In school well perhaps I shouldn’t get into that too much it was really good in the old days. I don’t know what they’re teaching them today but I am proud and glad that I taught in the early days when we could really see and know and have the experience of realizing that we had taught the children to pick up a book and read it and know what they read. Today I wonder what they are doing. I wouldn’t want to go back and find out. I see it all over I don’t think that they could pull me back with a hay rake but I’m glad that I have lived all these 85 years and had the experiences I’ve had.
Susan: Could you tell us a little about your hobby?
Miss Quick: Yes, I have a very wonderful hobby. You know when I was teaching when I first started to teach I’d come home from school and I’d—I’d go in the kitchen—I thought food dropped into position on the table and I thought if I would go in the kitchen well maybe they’ll (clears throat) teach me to do something. When I’d reach the kitchen my aunt and my mother both wonderful cooks would say now, “Enough good cooks in the kitchen—we don’t need you.” So I got so I wouldn’t go into the kitchen I wouldn’t even come home from school, I’d patronize the antique shops because I like old things and I walked in one day to an antique shop I saw a doll lying face down. The dress was open at the back and it said, “Remember who wrote this when far away.” Well, I was intrigued so that started a wonderfully good collection. I now have between well around 400 dolls with all related items such as doll carriages and hats and furniture and chests and beds, cradles, chairs everything that might have been played with years and years ago. I’ve written an article which is being published in the Federated Doll News Magazine. I belong to two doll clubs and I have sent colored slides of my carriage in an article entitled “A Buggy for Dolly.” In each of the 35 carriages I had a lot of fun putting in a da—a doll a period that would go with the carriage one has a Charity Smith Kitty Cat the other a teddy bear and it was well received. They said it was a delightfully different approach to doll collecting.
I’ve met so many wonderful people through this hobby. I’ve had exhibits oh many exhibits and a right now presently there is an exhibit (clock chimes) of the Easter parade and—and a that Roberson wanted for their Easter attraction and they came down and selected the dolls for that a occasion. At Easter time they wanted a big exhibit for their Christmas Forest so I gave them—they also came and selected what they wished and it was they told me about 2,000 people saw that. I’ve been guests at various clubs, doll clubs around the state and as I said before you meet the most charming people and I’ve enjoyed it I think that’s what has kept me going of course the family was after a while different ones the family was large my aunt, my uncle, my mother were here my sister she was an invalid for 11 years and after they all went it was a—a well even during the time when they were ill it was a life saver it sort of keeps you going. You have something to look forward to something to do and even if you don’t do it one day it’s there for the future and it what I have I think will preserve and give people an idea of what really was played with what the children really had whether they played with them or no. It was right for the period in which these very very old ladies grew up with.
Susan: Children formed more attachment to their a—
Miss Quick: When have you seen a child wheeling a doll carriage? You might see one in a store but I wouldn’t call it a doll carriage. I have the little old wooden carriages made by Joel Ellison and signed by him in the sixties. I have many wooden box carriages some made by the Whitney Carriage Co. and I also have a chests that are signed 1846. These were usually homemade things the little chests and beds and you don’t see it anymore children are—well it keeps production going now. They buy it today the child plays with it tomorrow and the next day it’s out broken and they go back and get another production is—
Susan: Everything is plastic now.
Miss Quick: Everything is plastic. There will I don’t know it isn’t saying really goodbye to the old but it’s trying now these people who would like to collect. They just have to take from what is given today and decide whether or not it will ever be collectible and will really last as the old things of—of yesteryear have done but I’m glad I have what I have. It gives me great deal of pleasure and it also gives pleasure to others.
Susan: Well, is there anything more that you would like to add?
Miss Quick: I can’t think of anything more. I think that a we’ve about covered it.
Susan: Well, thank you very much for the interview Miss Quick it’s been very interesting.
Miss Quick: I’ve enjoyed it. I really have enjoyed it and as I say I meet such interesting people.
Susan: We do. Thank you.
",,,,"16:49 minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Mabel Quick speaks about growing up near Scranton and later in Nichols, N.Y. She discusses living and teaching in Johnson City. She discusses her ancestors coming to America from Europe, with particular focus on Tom Quick, her ancestor who purchased Staten Island from Native Americans. She discusses her membership in the Daughters of the American Revolution and related associations. She is an avid doll collector and has over 400 dolls with associated accessories; she discusses this collection and activities in which she participates related to this hobby.",,"Interview with Mabel Quick",,,,1978-03-13,,,"Quick, Mabel -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.)",2017-03-27,"Sound ","audio/mp3 ","English ","Binghamton University Libraries ","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4d5bbd5ad44990c839605d73f46a2814.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 544,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/544,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"33:54 Minutes ; 11:28 Minutes ; 30:07 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dorothy Titchener ",,"Titchener, Dorothy ; O'Neil, Dan",,"audio/m4a ","Titchener, Dorothy -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Broome Community College; Titchener, Paul; Girl Scouts of the United States of America; Women -- Societies and clubs; Junior League of New York; Business and Professional Women/USA; Women -- Political activity; Amahami Girl Scout Camp; Girl Scout Council; Housing Authority; Politics","Dorothy Titchener speaks about her life including her marriage to Paul Titchener, the founder of Broome Community College, and working twenty years as chairman of the Housing Authority. She mentions her affiliation with the Business and Professional Women's Club and their efforts to nominate Judge Sarah Hughes as Vice President during the Eisenhower-Taft election. She lists among her acquaintances individuals, such as, President and Mrs. Franklin D. Roosevelt and Governor Rockefeller. She also details her achievements with the Girl Scouts Council and purchasing a lake, named Amahami, as a camp for the Girl Scouts club. She mentions her affiliation with the Junior League and Business and Professional Women's Club, as well as other local organizations.",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-03-15,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 61A ; Recording 61B; Recording 61C",,"O'Neil, Dan ","Titchner, Dorothy ",,,,,,"33:54 Minutes ; 11: 28 Minutes ; 30:07 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dorothy Titchener",,,,"1978-03-15 ",,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Titchener, Dorothy -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Broome Community College; Titchener, Paul; Girl Scouts of the United States of America; Women -- Societies and clubs; Junior League of New York; Business and Professional Women/USA; Women -- Political activity Amahami Girl Scout Camp; Girl Scout Council; Housing Authority; Politics ","2016-03-27 ",,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e232470a0e3b68d98c7107f368aecd89.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/643324a310be38fd2466b430a1e44618.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/45309a93308e0fc02b33d5dca95b50e5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fe316d67b70e64e0e15558cf4d6d4a31.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9133ca43296841534d2e8b154ffa0791.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d0f4005dda88b5c1325e8e74f4c4d4dc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0679fd5183c56f0e3a93eaff7f9bf3e9.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/87ef3c21a573d0ab7b2fef20f461b624.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d883ca1daa761ad52df58c07cb695190.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3b81d23618402d91301f08e1e4c1e8bf.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/df1f48d9902430af1f320103605078d5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/104e7433b9eab6c4858c44bf04ea4f50.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e3c28f137fc29d9367c79c5119daec70.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0f9a57b79d3774859a054e80c6c4c82f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b1e604140e1ec17cb0e42bfca84be40f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/895fa08da9e34601e864e581ff3b2c62.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6b1ad30b86018b8672f12a3ec02d1d63.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65d11e596daf3a89b7c8f1089a2101c3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9069e52823c102483cfdb7ac9bf28d48.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6ebd694f3828f2a86e259d7788e90325.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/44ee46060b054bc40ac851e040501479.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/62cbe9ed2224a9a2f9c1fdd86ce4434c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/620e18ec17755462f1a7a00f9f750478.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8cb533192cb0334a130bd27cd9ddba6a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c2df893da19675d7a1578ba0e5507b20.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3eb9aa8fe699e1ed30fffcd5f43278e6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/520d251d4dc464369c2fee40e2c95b2e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3fe1c3a453c2d62b7adbbaebad935aff.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/96f7dddaabf5507687522df486d0df68.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/39ebc2d1d32dc1cd827ab4593e18813a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/779da2cb45e0c1be0d84cce604827bd5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5d1a762e696725144e27862f3fa23b8e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8fe1c8a91800f17945b57f54f1303a45.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fa5768b57c0b34ea0e051d98d29ef45b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/adbf4ac11abf4bc516d1c68b5674eaa9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5c6adc9682975113d3bf5a762c9a301d.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 526,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/526,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"26:17 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Stephen Maxian ",,"Maxian, Stephen ; Caganek, Anna",,"audio/mp3 ","Maxian, Stephen -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Farmers -- Interviews; Farms -- Interviews; Silver Lake (Pa. : Township); Accordionists -- Interviews; Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Johnson City (N.Y.); House construction","Stephen Maxian talks about being brought up in Binghamton, NY. He tells of owning a farm in Silver Lake Township for thirty five years. He also discusses moving to Johnson City to take a job at a factory, and building a house for his family with the help of friends and electricians. He speaks about his later career of playing the accordion for local senior citizen groups. He talks of his parents immigrating to the United States circa 1880. He mentions his travels to other countries. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-03-28,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 42 ",,"Caganek, Anna","Maxian, Stephen",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mr. Stephen Maxian
Interviewed by: Anna Caganek
Date of interview: 28 March 1978
Stephen: I am Stephen Maxian born in Forest City 1888 November 17, I am 89 years old, I went to school in Forest City a year or so and when I came back, my folks moved here to Binghamton, that’s quite a few years back I was nine—years old I went to school, Clinton Street school a year or so, Jarvis Street school then I went to the St. Pat’s Parochial School, there my father took me out when I was 13 years old, went on the farm, I was growed up on the farm ’til I was 21 years, after I left the farm, I got a job at that time you get a job anyplace.
Worked in Kroehlers, finally got married, had 2 children there on, we moved on to a farm, we had a farm in Silver Lake Township, 250 acres. Had a few head of cattle, we worked there for 30 years. The best we could do, the best we could do was to pay for the farm. When we had the farm paid for, we had nothing else—only just the farm and a few tools. I decided we would give up the farn, and get a job in the factory, I finally located a job, in Fairbanks Valve Co. I worked there 13 years, and we run the, farm all together 35 years, so when I got this job in the factory, we decided, we would move into the City. Then when we went looking, for a house, they were asking more for a shabby house in the city, compared to he one we had in the country and all the land, they wanted 6 thousand or 7 thousand, and 8 thousand for a house with water in the cellar, not very nice, so I built me a house home on, Ackley Ave.
I decided that would be the best place, I went into my timber lot, I cut the timber, to specification to what we want it for, built the house on Ackley Ave. I was my own contractor, I hired my help, to do the electrical work, to hook up the gas, and put the walls, and I had my friends. Some from the factory, and some from the, sawmill, who sawed the lumber for me, and they helped me build the house.
Of course now I lost my wife 5 years ago. And I do music work, I play an accordion, I play this, I play this accordion quite a few times, as a volunteer, for the Senior Citizens, of the Triple Cities. We go as far as Deposit, we play for the Senior Citizens, in Windsor, Whitney Point, and all the others close by. It keeps us, pretty busy, and I'm not alone in this there's three of us in this. We always play together. Sometimes we get, now and then, a pay job, but not very often.
As for my family, I have a daughter one in California, then I got one, in Lewiston, Maine, and I have a son, Stephen, lives on Conklin Rd., and I spent this Easter at his house, had dinner there and today, we played for Senior Citizens, Johnson City Nutrition Center.
I got to go everyplace. They never say, “Don’t come back.” They also say, “Come again, we love your music,” of course.
This lumber that this house was built, I cut the logs and the boards, and also I drawed the plans for the home on Ackley Ave. And the lumber sawmill that cut the logs, they knew just how to make it, and I had to buy very little lumber to finish the house, I had my own window trim, door casings made of Ash Lumber, which is a very good hard lumber, and the floors made also out of hard maple which is a very good floor and I lacked, a little bit of that, so I had to buy a few feet of lumber for part of my bedroom, which was a little different from my own lumber, it was more seasoned, mine wasn't, quite seasoned, then, my own lumber.
Everything seemed to be all right as far as that goes. I'm living on Social Security in Johnson City for 30 years and I have no worries. I've been traveling quite a good deal, after my wife passed away. I’ve been down in Venezuela. Caracas, Venezuela, then in Hawaii, couple times and also down in Bermuda, Nassau, and in Virginia, Florida, different, a lot different places on Senior Citizens. Now I didn't think I would ever see in my younger days. My younger days, most of the time I seen lot of poverty. (Laugh).
Now I'm making plans to visit my sister in Michigan, my daughter that lives up in Maine, State of Maine is coming down here in June, early in June and pick me up and maybe my son, and his wife and take us up to my sister in Michigan, Arlington, Michigan, the outskirts of Detroit and l'm looking forward to that, and I guess within a month or so I probably, will be, going to Maryland, visit my grandson and my grandchildren, some that I have never seen, and I'm looking forward to that. Also if I can get up, gumption enough to go I usually, when l travel, I travel with a group, and when you get to be 89 years old, it ain't easy to start out alone, you don’t know what might happen, and I'm supposed to bring my accordion, that I play, and my harmonicas down to my grandson’s because he writes, country music, and I play country music and other kind of music. This harmonica I'm going to play now it’s a key of C. I will play an Irish jig.
[Mr. Maxian plays it].
Now I will play a beautiful Slovak waltz. That was on my accordion. The name of this is “Orphan Child.”
[Mr. Maxian plays].
Now, I will play you on my harmonica, “Swanee River.”
[Mr. Maxian plays. Anna claps.]
There's one thing I forgot to mention, I have 10 grandchildren, great-grandchildren and I had to wait until a year ago, one whose name is Maxion. The rest is all on my daughter's side. (Laugh). Different names. Oh I'm glad I got one that’s a Maxian. My own family, my father’s family. I had one brother that was born in Slovakia, the rest of the family was all born in this country and when you count ‘em up there was 14 of us. There was 9 brothers and 5 sisters, up to now there's just 2 of us brothers left and 3 sisters, still hanging on. My father and mother they came from Slovakia, as my, wife did, and I can’t say just what year they, immigrated to this country around, about 1880, I guess something like that and when they came to this, country, they came from at that time it was Austria-Hungary, was Franz Joseph, was Monarchy of these two countries, two nations, nationality of these people, the Hungarians, Polish, Czechs, and the Slovaks and some people, who called themselves Russians, also there and there was some Germans, all in this one group in the Two Nations, Austria-Hungary. Today they all have their own nations, that’s about the best I can do.
Anna: Thank you Mr. Maxian, thank you.
",,,,"26:17 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Stephen Maxian",,,,1978-03-28,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Maxian, Stephen -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Farmers -- Interviews; Farms -- Interviews; Silver Lake (Pa. : Township); Accordionists -- Interviews; Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Johnson City (N.Y.); House construction",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e3eb9f29a02cc9dc9384a5f8dc92dace.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c3f9c730778fedd573a71117244a2af.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7654ebe6da52b1ea354e2bf27e1a68a7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2633e5c878428e1e7cf20cb23bb41814.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fa2324f3cfcb452584cce8e95fd4c5b1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dc82e65ad2f3ed8f1de995565297e883.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 555,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/555,,,,,,,,,,2017-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"34:03 Minutes ; 10:20 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with George J. Macko ",,"Macko, George J. ; Politylo, Nettie",,audio/mp3,"Macko, George -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Czechs--United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Politics; Broome Community College; Broome County (N.Y.). Supervisors, Board of; Binghamton Glass Co.; Olum's Furniture Co.; Glassblowing; Clinton Street neighborhood; First Ward; Interpreter; Broome County Airport; St. Michael's Church","Macko talks about his father immigrating from Czeckoslavia and settling in Binghamton, NY. Both his parents died when he was young and he and his siblings lived with a relative. At fourteen he left school to work for the Binghamton Glass Co. where he learned the glassblowing trade. He details the operation of the glassblowing. He left there after ten years to work for Olums Furniture Co. on Clinton Street. He worked there for fifty-one years. He describes the Clinton Street neighborhood and the businesses located there. He served as an interperter and assisted immigrants in the community with paperwork for mortgages and citizenship. After retiring he became involved in politics. He served as a County Supervisor for twenty years representing the First Ward. He speaks of being on several committees during his time as a County Supervisor and was involved with the creation of Broome Technical School [Broome Community College] and the Broome County Airport. He also served as a board member of St. Michael's Church. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-03-30,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fa",,English,Sound,"Recording 71",,"Politylo, Nettie","Macko, George J. ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: George J. Macko
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Date of interview: 30 March 1978
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to George J. Macko of 36 LaGrange Street, Binghamton, NY, on March 29, 1978. Mr. Macko, will you tell me about the experiences of your people coming here from Europe—coming here—etc.?
George: Ready?
Nettie: Yes.
George: My dad and mother was born in what they call now Czechoslovakia, a good many years ago. Dad came here to the United States—he landed in Philadelphia in about the year 1888. He walked—he didn't have money enough to pay railroad fare from Philadelphia to Scranton, so him and another man that came over with him, they walked the railroad track from Philadelphia to Scranton—and they got—because lot of our friends is living there—so he stayed there a while and worked in the mines. He stayed at the mines a while—and he come back—he moved into Binghamton in 1890. He got his first citizen papers before that and he worked—hard job, to get a job them days—was putting sewer going down through Clinton Street. They hired you for two days and the next two days you was done—you didn't have a job, and you had to struggle along to get a job—so then he went to work and he got a job with Roberson Lumber Co. He had a job working outdoors piling lumber—when they comes in the cars and get piling it—he worked there, oh, ’til about 19—1907—no, 1906—he worked there 1896—he left there—he had a very bad case of asthma—had it tough. But he used to like to take his drinks, and he worked, but sometimes when it comes Friday or Saturday—boy—that was bad! But it’s one of them conditions—like the old timer used to be—that was nothing new to them. And Mother come to this country about 18—1890. She was a hard worker—she used to keep house. They used to have boarders come to live with us—they had good ones and they had bad ones—they had to make both ends meet to get along the best they could. About the year 1907—Dad come home from work one day and I come home from school, he said, Dad, “I'm not going to work anymore, I'm done—I can't work no more ’cause my asthma got me so I can't do anything."" So he died.
I was ten and a half years old then when he died, and two years later, Mother was in bad shape—she fell down on the ice in the wintertime on the sidewalk, hit the back of head—she went into a coma. She died two years after Dad died.
That left us—I was twelve and a half years old at that time—so what happens—so after they both died—I went to live—my sister, my brother and I—went to live with my uncle, Mr. & Mrs. George Tatich. I lived with them. When I was fourteen years old, I had to quit school to go to work—so I started to work for the Binghamton Glass Co. as a mold boy and snapping-up boy. In 1913 I started apprenticeship of being a glassblower—learning the trade, glassblower. I stayed, worked in the glasshouse until 1924. I quit there in '24 and I went to work and started to work at Olum Furniture Co. on Clinton Street. Mr. Jacob Olum was the owner and proprietor of the business, and I worked for him, and I been working for him continuously until I retired after 51 years working. I come up the hard way with ’em—I met all kinds of people, good and bad—we managed to get along the best I could.
I used to talk, go out to be a witness for, witness for people to be a citizen of this country—and used to go out to work selling furniture and go out, help a whole lot on different things—being sort of an interpreter for things for to help them along when they would buy homes, etc.—which we did—and they got going good—and I got to be working in the store. We got in the Slovak people, Polish people, Czechoslovakian people, Ukrainian people—and you meet them all—I could understand them and I could talk with them all—I had no difficulty at all. So, I worked ’til 19—19—after forty years of working for the store—I retired after I was 69 years old on social security. After I retired Mr. Olum wanted me to come back to work two or three nights a week, so I decided—I went back to work three times a week with a salary of $30.00 for twelve hours, and I stayed there, I put in eleven years doing that and I worked there ’til I was taken sick—and with doctor's orders, I decided to give up work, so I haven't been working since. So, my political help, I started to get in politics about in the year 1928. I was elected Secretary of the Roosevelt—Roosevelt Victory Democratic ticket—Secretary of the First Ward Group that we had here—and I kept being in politics, and went along and here of 19—1934—or ‘35, I run to be supervisor for the First Ward—and I was elected to that office, and I was elected continuously to that office from 19—1936 to 1955. In the 1955 election I got beat and that ended my career as a politician.
Nettie: Well, tell me more about your politics—exactly what your job was. What was your—trustee, councilman, supervisor—?
George: Supervisor.
Nettie: Supervisor of what?
George: I was county supervisor for twenty years. I was on different committees—I was on a whole lot of important committees on the Board of Supervisors—I spent nine years on the Finance Committee that made up the finances and the budget for the county for the year. I was on that for nine years. I was on the law Legislative Committee about nine years. I was on the Airport Committee from the time we started it, ’til I got beaten in the election. I was on the construction of the airport, and after the airport was finished—then I was on the committee that started when they started going to work on building a new college in Binghamton. The Board of Supervisors elected twelve members to be on the committee about getting a college in Binghamton. We decided to do that and the Board of Supervisors voted to appropriate one million dollars for that new college that we were supposed to have. Things went along smoothly, then all of a sudden things turned around. Lt. Governor—er—er—Lt. Governor of the state, he came down, we had a meeting with the Board of Supervisors. He wanted us to go to work and start another college in the city and at one million dollars that we wanted to appropriate for the state college—to go to work, to put that toward the new community college that, they called it at that time—it wasn't community college, at that time, it was the School of Science. So they took—they—they split the committee of the twelve men—they took three men, Harry True, myself, and Hugh Wheeler to be on the new school that we wanted to open up—which today is Broome Technical School. And I been on that school from the time they started it ’til I got beaten in the election. I still have a lot of faith in that school and I think it is one of the Godsends of our County for having a school like that. That is a very good school.
Nettie: Mr. Macko—how about telling me more the airport—how it started—how did it get around? I know it had something to do with the Johnsons—I'm not sure.
George: Johnsons? Johnson—what's-his-name was on the committee.
Nettie: Charlie Johnson?
George: See, they had an airport in Endicott, but they wanted to have a bigger airport because the government would not put any money into that airport because of circumstances in the airport that they didn't think would be feasible to do it. So they appointed a committee—Johnson was on that—ooh—President of the Ansco Co. was on that—quite a few real business people were on that committee. So they come before the Board of Supervisors to see what we can do, if we would be—interested in building the airport—so we had a meeting, and this group of people come and explained to us why we should have a new airport here and so forth, like that. And, ah, ’course I was interested in aviation because my son was a flier. My son is a flier in the Navy. After they got through talking, we heard all sides of the story and the Board was kind of quiet, so I said to this—I can't think of his name now, he used to be a big wheel here—I said, “You people—now you sell up a idea, this here airport, now you should go out, and go out and canvas the city and different parts of the city, kinds of different parts of the county, then come back to us with the report—see what you made on it.” And it went along like that, and they came back and then the board decided that we go along building the airport.
Nettie: How did you find that site? Why not another site?
George: This committee that was working on it, they had that all located. They showed us the site before we started to do it. We all saw it. It's a good site, but still, it’s a condition of Broome County—when you get fogged, you get fogged in—you can't help it, it's a situation we have here.
Nettie: A sort of pockets there, too.
George: That's right. The airport did a good thing for the community.
Nettie: Yes, business.
George: Everything. Everybody. A lot of people come back, come back and objected to me, come up, a lot come up, he said, “George, we gave you the devil for being for the airport, but we're sure happy you done it.""
Nettie: That's right, that's right.
George: I said that's all right—that's the way you got to take it—some good and bad.
Nettie: That's right.
George: I says I always manage—oh, when—I always manage, when I even voted—when I even voted for anything in the county, on the different budgets, I always went to work—I went to court [inaudible], hard concepts, I listen to ’em—I'm talking—if it's a good thing and they satisfaction me, I voted for it. And if I wasn't satisfied, I'd question them about it—and after I questioned, if the question come out to my satisfaction, I voted for it, if not, I voted against it—and that was always my motto when I voted for anything.
Nettie: Other words, you voted, you went along as though it was something of your own, as though that was your private thing.
George: Well, the benefit of the people, for the benefit of the people.
Nettie: That's right. Your heart was really in it.
George: That's right. I didn't want to hold up anything that wasn't, that wasn’t—anybody that was detrimental to the city, I didn't like.
Nettie: Did you ever know the Kilmers? Did you ever know anything about the Kilmers?
George: I've known of them, but I never had any contact with ‘em.
Nettie: How about the Link people? Do you know the Links?
George: I know Ed Link, but, ah—
Nettie: Just through business?
George: Just through business, that's right.
Nettie: Nothing personal. Well, how about telling me—where was this Olum's located? On Clinton Street, or was it located—
George: —Clinton Street.
Nettie: Clinton Street. At that era, say fifty years ago, I know that they had, probably, many stores and probably, I think Jewish people had stores, and things like that. Will you tell me something about that? Other people you got involved with?
George: Well, there was different people had businesses there, mostly grocery stores—why, mostly—there were two or three Jewish places had grocery stores. Then they had a dry goods store that they have, that they used to have on Clinton Street, people by the name of Smock’s. They used to have children—children's—and baby dressing, and dresses for the ladies. They was in business for quite a while, but then he died off, she died off—that closed that business up—and then they had a lot of people running the hotel—saloon, drinking places, that so many of them had, some in and some out.
Nettie: Wasn't there a Lincoln Hotel at one time?
George: Yeah—Lincoln Hotel.
Nettie: That's before Ann Kolota had it.
George: Well, Lincoln Hotel, Mr. Torony owned it—he used to have a corner on, a hotel on the corner of Charles and Clinton Street. He was doing business there, but he had to get out of there, so then he went to work—took the Lincoln Hotel over. And he’d run that for quite a while—and went along, got along good—we used to go there and I used to meet him quite often—every week, my wife and I’d go there every week. They used to have dances, there’d be dancin’, we'd meet different people and we'd have a glorious time there. So Mr. Torony got down to the point, he says, ""George,” he says, “I want to give up—I want to sell.” He says, “I want to sell it to you.""
I says, ""Steve! Sell it to me?” I says, ""I haven't got the money to pay for that.""
He says, ""What do you care? I'll take a mortgage.""
Yes, but I said, ""I don't want to worry about a mortgage."" But it went along, and a fellow by the name of Maxim come along, he bought it. Maxim had it for quite a while, and he sold it—and I don't know who had it now since the Kolotas had it. I don't know who runs it now.
I used to go out, and people who come from the old country had to go, they all had to go and order up cit—get citizen papers. I used to go out, I can't tell you even how many people I went to be—ah—be a citizen, put in for citizen papers for. Well sometimes, ah—they used to make me mad—they wouldn’t come and tell me, ""Will you go for me?” but they’d come up and tell me, “You gotta go for me.” And it’s the night—the day before they got to go to court, they’d say, “You got to go with me."" So I turned a few of them down. Anyone—anybody that wanted me to be a witness for ‘em and I didn’t like their character, I wouldn't go. I wouldn't go for everyone, because one time I went for a witness with another fella—both of the fellas are dead—one was a witness and one was the man running for citizen paper. We went up—I never had to worry about what I said or done, but I wasn't—I wasn’t—I didn't hear what the other guy had to say, so I was going to be honest—so this examiner, when we got through, he said, he says, ""All right,” he said, “I will rest your case, but,” he said, “when you come before the judge and get citizen papers,” he says, “I will put perjury charges against you.”
Nettie: Put what?
George: Perjury charges.
Nettie: Oh, perjury.
George: So we had to go from one office to another to sign up. Someone—but this thing was bothering me all the while. And I said to the guy, I says, ""Come on back."" Ah, he said, ""Where?"" I said, ""We're going back to the examiner, again."" He said, ""Why?"" I said, ""He said something I didn't like as far as myself is concerned—I don't know about you, but I'm fighting for myself."" So I went in there and saw him. He said—I think his name was Smith—I says, ""Smith, did I understand you say that you passed us all right but when it comes to court—before the court to get the papers, you’ll go put perjury charges against us?""
He says, “Yes,” so I says, “Let me tell you, Smith, right now.” I said, ""You want to make damn sure that the perjury charges you're going to put against me, that they’re gonna be good, or I'm gonna sue you.” I said, ""I will not go to work and stand up to anybody accusing me of perjury when I haven’t perjured myself."" Well, we come to court, he never mentioned a thing about it—he just said to the judge, ""Pass the guy."" But I'm telling you, so—you had some of them couldn't write their names, you know, hard workers—they never wrote in their lives [inaudible]. I had one guy in particular, Harry Terre—Harry Tatiliba. He's [inaudible] junkyard [inaudible] iron all day long—how do you expect a guy to write a letter when he never wrote a letter before? So he had it in there and the examiner called me in and he said, ""George,” he says. he says, ""I like this guy and all that, but he says he can't sign his name.” I said, ""Let me talk to him in his language.” I said, “He'll sign it.” I said, “he'll do it, just let me talk his language.” So I told him in his language, I said, ""If you don't sign your name, you're not going to get the citizen papers, so take your time—try to write as plain as you can. Take your time, don't rush it."" He did. (Laughing.)
Nettie: They have to have someone interpreting for them.
George: That's right. I had—I had to ask permission to interpret for him. So—I’d never done that.
Nettie: That was interesting.
George: Another time I went up for a witness for a man. He was born here—in Scranton—well, he goes outside of Scranton. When the war come along they took him in—pushed. He said he wouldn't go and fight because he wasn’t going to fight against his brothers over there, his father and brothers in the old country. And he was born here, they took him in, but when he got discharged from the Army he got his citizen papers. So I went up to be a witness for his wife for papers, and this examiner—she took her husband's citizen paper with her—and he questioned her, he says, ""This is your husband?""
She says, ""Yes”—and he was born in, near Scranton, and was baptized in Scranton—she said, ""Yes.""
Well, he said, ""He didn't need no citizen papers—he's a citizen in the first place."" Well, he said, ""The government gave it to him when he discharged, so that's it."" So, you see there was wrong in there, too.
Nettie: That's right.
George: So, she got her paper without a bit of trouble. But most of the people, I never had none of them turned down that I went to be witness for—because I was careful who I went for. I went for Slovak people, I went for American people, I went for Italian people—those that I knew they was all right, I went for ‘em, no trouble at all. And I never tried to charge any of them any money for going—although losing time at work, but never charged any of them—but some of them would give me a donation once in a while. And a friend of mine, I went for citizen’s papers for him and his wife—and they both got it. And I was running for election that year, and he went to work, he said, to some people he said, ""Don't vote for George. George has been there long enough,” he said, ""get somebody else to run."" I said, ""That's what I get paid for being his witness."" (Laughing.)
Nettie: People are comical, aren't they?
George: You got ups and downs, I'm telling you. Yeah.
Nettie: Since we're on Clinton Street, how about telling me something about that Horvatt Bank that was closed—
George: Horvatt Bank was closed by the State Dept. of Banking—they closed it. There was a discrepancy or something, something like that. I don't want to bring in the bi—the other part of it. But it, ah—It hurt the people of the First Ward and hurt the business of the First Ward when that bank went under. There's no question about it. It’s just too bad that it happened.
Nettie: Mr. Macko, what kind of people went to that bank? Why didn't they go to Binghamton Savings Bank? Why did they go to Horvatt Bank?
George: They went to the Horvatt because he's one of our kind, and he used to have a good reputation. His dad used to run the beer business, which, my dad used to go there every week—had a grand time—and the family was well known, so the people had a lot of confidence in him so they went to the bank. Now, you take all the churches—all the churches had money in banquet—er—Horvatt's Bank.
I was elected Treasurer in St. Michael's Church in the July. When the half year was up they elected me for a full year, so, a year and half as Treasurer in St. Michael's Church. After that I was elected for President of the Board from 1923 to '29. In '29, after the year 1929, I didn't want to be on it any longer, so I—I was elected but I refused it, wouldn’t be swore in, so that stopped it. Then, I didn't get elected—got elected again in 1934. In 1934 I took it again amidst a lot of turmoil—church fight was starting in there—which I didn't like, didn’t need in the first place, because I knew the law says, when you got membership laws to go by, that's all you got to worry about—membership laws. Well, St. Michael’s Church was dedic—er—elected—er, appointed by 27 families. They got the charter for St. Michael’s Church in 1920—er, in 1904, and when I was there I tried to keep within the law on everything was done, and the people had confidence in me and they always wanted me in there. So after I served in 1920, er, ‘34, this church fight got started, harder, hotter and hotter, and I tried to calm it down the best I could. I used to tell ‘em, he says, ""Look at this—why do we have to fight? Don't go to the left, don't go to the right, but stay in the middle of the road,” and I said, “If you stay in the middle of the road, you're gonna win. And if you don't stay in the middle of the road, you don't win.” Well, it just happened, they wasn’t under membership laws in New York State. Well, the law, the charter said we should have the Greek Catholic Church—Greek Catholic Church rites. That was in the charter. But that was, that was the fight about Greek Catholic Church religion, fighting, that didn't help ‘em any. But if I say, there wasn’t no law to take ‘em out of the—they even sent two lawyers to the old country to check up on the history of the church and everything—Bernie Chernin and another guy. That was a vacation for them. Who paid—and who paid for it? The poor people. So—is there anything else?
Nettie: When you were telling me about—you were working—your dad was a glassblower?
George: I was a glassblower.
Nettie: You were a glassblower.
George: I was a glassblower. I was seventeen years old when I started blowing glass.
Nettie: Mr. Macko, will you tell me the procedure of blowing glass? I think it is quite interesting—can you explain it? Or if you can’t, you have to show it, is that it?
George: (Laughing.) You know, we used to have thirty-three glassblowers working at the glassworks, but every year they allowed, they’d usually allow them to put one apprentice—to put an apprentice on, so, every year there's men put in for ‘em. I went in for a four-year apprentice—they used to have a five-year apprentice, but when l went in it was a four-year apprentice. We used to have old glass—sand, soda, lime, and potash—and we used to melt it, and we used to have about a hundred tons of glass melted just like molasses, day and night. And you’d have a long pipe, a pipe about that long [about 24”], and you’d put a [inaudible] on the end of it, and you'd go to work and gather that glass, take it and roll it on the stone or iron, and you had a form for the bottle, and you'd go to work and before you closed the bowl you’d blow the bottle out. So they used to make bottles from—anyway, I used to make a bottle from one half ounce up to sixteen ounces—but then, they used to make bottles up to five gallons, but that I couldn't do because that was too big a job for me.
Nettie: Is that only bottles, or did you make vases and other things?
George: Bottles.
Nettie: —just bottles—
George: Just bottles. So, in 1923, the year—we closed for the season, and then '24, I started work for Olum. That was the end of my glassblowing business. But that was hard work. In wintertime, half a side you were burning and the other side of you was freezing, and blowing glass all day long was no picnic. You had to go clear round the—you had to work in union—unison. And if you didn't—if you happened to stop—the thing didn't work out for you when you was on, on the kneading board. To divide it, you'd have to holler, “Look out!” because the man would come around with the hot glass and hit you in the rear with it—burn your pants if you didn't holler. So you had to be watchin’ all the time. Had to go day round, day round and round and round.
Nettie: Did this have something to do with your respiration after many years?
George: Didn't bother me. I used to play in a band, even! Blow glass, play in a band. Oh, no. We, ah—back in 1912, we started a band from St. Michael’s Church.
Nettie: Just a few men?
George: Oh, there were the few of us—then there was quite a few of them, wound up, but the band went along, gone along good.
Nettie: What did you do in the band? How many in the band, and what part did you play in it?
George: I played the cornet. I played the cornet, but then I quit that band, and guys asked me to go to work, get a saxophone—and I start blowing, training on the saxophone and I went to work, went to first work for the Slovak Citizens Band. I played in that afterward. But St. Michael’s band—they had a nice band, but they broke up.
Nettie: Where did you play? At picnics, things like that?
George: Yes.
Nettie: Did you have high school?
George: My education—I went to school when I was seven years old and I quit when I was fourteen—I got up, er, finished the seventh grade and graduated the glassblower. (Laughing.) Yeah.
Nettie: Your education was experience throughout life, right?
George: That's right—but thank God I struggled along all right. I can't complain.
Nettie: Did you have a son in service?
George: Yeah—my older boy.
Nettie: Will you tell us about your family?
George: I got two sons—and they’re both high school graduates—-and then he started—the War come along—he went to work and started to take night school in Endicott High School to be a pilot, and he went along. They picked ten men out of the class to go to work and take flying lessons in the Endicott Airport—so, he was one of the ten—so then he went to work after that certain length—-certain courses to go through. Then they took, out of the ten—they picked out five others to go for another course of flying, and he went along—he won every one of them because—so things come along, and the report come out from Washington that all the civilians in pilot training have to join the service—and there's ten of them up in Endicott. There were some from Massachusetts, some from New York in the class—so they got together and, “We got to join, we got to join the service”—so they went to the Navy-Army recruiting station here. They wanted to enlist as pilots in aviation in the government—they wouldn't take them, so they decided to go to New York and got the Navy Department up there to see if they could take them in. Well, they had a meeting there, the twelve men, and they said, “We will.” He says, “Gonna take a couple of you, two of you is gonna pass. One is perfect—he's in from right today—he's in.” That was my son. They take him for this one. “From today on, you're a Navy man. Go out and buy a uniform and the government will pay for ‘em—and the government will pay for ‘em.” And the other boy, he's a boy from Owego—they gave him thirty days to fix up his teeth and report back in New York in thirty days, and he was appointed after that—so my son was in there. He trained pilots for the Navy for I think, for two and a half years. So then they went to work—so, they kinda closed down on that after, they went to work—they send them out to be instructed to be fighter pilots, so my son, the older boy, is a Navy fighter pilot, and they laid him off and he got through with the rank of Commander—from Ensign to Commander is quite a step without a big education—so he came back home, and he wanted—to put in full time and part time. He's got 27 years in as a Navy pilot.
Nettie: Is he living here—in the Triple Cities?
George: He's living here—he's living up above us on this street. He's got two boys, both college graduates. Both work for American Airlines—one works out of the super—vice president's office—the older one works out of the vice president's office as a troubleshooter or something, and the other one, the younger one, works in the accounting office, and my younger boy, Joe, he works, lives with me here—and he's been working ever since he graduated college—er—high school, for GAF for 34 1/2 years, and he got laid off.
Nettie: That was sad.
George: Yeah. He can't get a job—to get a job for $2.65 an hour—but when you’re making more money than that, try and get a job. Try and get a job.
Nettie: I know. It is very hard.
George: Them are the situations.
Nettie: Mr. Macko, when you worked at Olum's, what kind of wages did you get—years ago, compared to wages now?
George: I started there at $25.00 a week—you work from 8 o'clock to 9, 10 o'clock at night.
Nettie: Every day?
George: Every day, every day.
Nettie: How did they deliver furniture? Must have had buggies?
George: They had a truck—truck.
Nettie: They always had trucks?
George: Yeah, I was a salesman, I was a salesman—help uncrate the stuff, crate the stuff, polish the stuff, truck driving. I done everything, even swept the floor in the store.
Nettie: For $25.00 a week? That was when? How long ago?
George: That was back about 1924-1925.
Nettie: Now the wages are different, right?
George: Then we got a raise. Then, when Horvatt Bank went under in 1929, we had to take a cut in wages again.
Nettie: Oh.
George: The boss lost his money—so them are the things.
Nettie: How about the charge accounts? Will you explain?
George: They have charge accounts—which is a good account—good charge account. They'd have—before, they didn't use to have a charge account, and especially when we had floods. The people that were born here and they owed him more, more. Mr. Olum didn't crowd them—anything—he asked them to go along, “Pay a little as you can,” he said [inaudible] and you work along with ‘em. Then after that, he'd take the furniture and have it fixed for repairs—stuff like that—and then he started a Red Circle Credit Bureau, which you can have—buy furniture—without paying a carrying charge on it for a year. After a year there is a carrying charge, but the carrying charge is about—at that time was, I think, about 10%—that was made on the schedule, that average was 10%. On the electrical end of it, they used to give them ninety days without a carrying charge to pay for it. If they didn't pay for it, then you had to pay a carrying charge—and the carrying is the same way they are today in the store—you're doing business directly with the store, not with outsiders. See, it is a company-owned store.
Nettie: Sounds like Mr. Olum was a very nice man to work for. Sounds like he had a lot of compassion for people, the way you tell me.
George: He was very good to the people, very good. That's why all the people used to go to him, because he was so nice to ‘em—he was a Jew but he was like one of us, as far as that goes.
Nettie: Is he still living?
George: Oh yes, he'll be coming home from Florida in April. He's going to be 84 years old and I'll be 83—the same day—yeah. He was a very nice man to work for—-because I lived there—er, worked there that long.
Nettie: He sounds like a very nice man.
George: Yeah.
Nettie: Going back to Clinton Street, do you remember any people or characters who were colorful—someone comical—something outstanding about certain people?
George: Well—
Nettie: Maybe someone prominent?
George: There weren't any too prominent. They was all congenial—all happy, jolly, full of jokes, etc.
Nettie: Well, do you want to tell me anything else, Mr. Macko?
George: I don't know—
Nettie: What social life did you have?
George: My social life was very good. My wife—we're married 62 years, will be 62. We got along good—we raised a family of two boys—getting along right now—getting along good right now, thank God. As far as social life, we can't complain—as long as we are healthy and well, that's the main thing, the rest will come gradually.
Nettie: Do you belong to any clubs?
George: Just the First Ward citizens.
Nettie: Do you go out there? Do you have your meals there?
George: I haven't been in there quite a while. Look, all winter long I haven't drove my car—from the day—all winter long. The boy, younger boy stayed home, he said, ""Stay home. Never mind driving the car, roads are so bad—get off of them,"" so I stayed home and didn't drive.
Nettie: It was a bad winter, wasn't it?
George: Oh, it was awful.
Nettie: Is there anything you have interesting for our tape? Something on your mind?
George: Say, there is one thing. You go down to First Ward Library, there is a library book in Slovak that was made by Mr. Mazar and Paul Sasinek. I saw it four years ago—has the history of the Slovak people in the Ward here. If you get a chance to look it up, you'll see it.
Nettie: I think it will be very nice.
George: I think you'll get a whole lot out of that.
Nettie: Well, Mr. Macko, it was a pleasure of you giving us information for our tape. Thank you very much.
George: You’re welcome, I assure you.
",,,,"34:03 Minutes ; 10:20 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with George J. Macko",,,,1978-03-30,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Macko, George -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Czechs--United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Politics; Broome Community College; Broome County (N.Y.). Supervisors, Board of; Binghamton Glass Co.; Olum's Furniture Co.; Glassblowing; Clinton Street neighborhood; First Ward; Interpreter; Broome County Airport; St. Michael's Church",2017-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/44262db4f5265ac6531dbcac964a53ed.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/eb3f36bb80fabb63e1effccc20b2d51e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/80404cac75b262e5cd5f13763f05afed.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/998d1cdff5c1003cfbaeb821df13a9c9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cfc95eacc7bdcfd97664ec3ec8af284b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9a820fec80133aa7b1cdeef00cce877a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d11b7fba72e71f8c0d84b98e93c3c75b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9509603ba936bef13c3376b4a2cfc1f5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f556e7d448c391305dc5e4e5c4cf4bbd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9f45d087295cc37bd3c5b85b67b627c9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ae7da357777f0cce756430ccca324023.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f6d6a5659f003981e8a7876d50709c31.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b7bca80cb5b38b43186facae0529729d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9763b9bfab67d3fd5b01e99beab09ecd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/235e691da53dcfc5c43c76974d0dcea5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f98f0ad07c81c139648e2a1ab9fb8180.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ca273c73652975ca1a4b39c83a60c77b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ded4884c663a0f2d294e6624a9d4f671.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bb9addca042bdfae4428565d4a5e255e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5ac68c6ac58cd877397b0e93f03ee5f7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2b54604e4329e45bd13ae8479bf719bf.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/24b3dfec058bca40125d89d9af7896da.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b4a6675a498d9b94b3cb9866253a967e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/881436402ede3a1548b1d712d72ecc5f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e65665eed6ed35f6286cba4d12321c71.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d6601a42a405c0d053949439a9b06b52.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 497,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/497,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"33:12 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Daniel Celeste ",,"Celeste, Daniel ; O'Neil, Dan",,audio/mp3,"Celeste, Daniel -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Restaurateurs -- Interviews; Prohibition; National Guard; Community Lounge; Security Mutual Building","Dan Celeste talks about his emigration from Italy at age ten, his various jobs before joining the National Guard, and opening a restaurant in post-WWI Binghamton. He discusses raids and difficulty with business during the depression and prohibition age, then his acquisition of the Community Lounge in the Security Mutual Building. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-04-11,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 11",,"O'Neil, Dan","Celeste, Daniel",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Daniel Celeste
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 11 April 1978
Dan O’Neil: OK, Danny, if you will tell me about your life and working experiences in the community, starting from where you were born.
Daniel Celeste: Where I born, I born in Faeto, it’s in the town of Faeto, Province of Foggio–that’s the province of the, like the state, like you say, the—
O’Neil: In Italy.
Celeste: Yeah, in Italy, and then we—Dad came here because he was here before, and ah, he brought me and my brother with him. We emigrate then from Faeto to Naples, and from Naples we come right into United States.
O’Neil: What year was that, Danny?
Celeste: 19—1908.
O’Neil: 1908.
Celeste: 1908, and we came to Binghamton. We had some relatives here—some cousins and relations, so Dad went, ah, laboring around whatever, he got a job and I went to school for a couple of months that, that year, and then I went, we went on, ah, on, ah, construction work, and took me along with him and I was waterboy there.
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: And ah, in Fabius—Fabius, NY, that’s where we—first job, ah, I really worked, and ah, we lived in a shanty, was in the camp, you know what I mean, about a couple hundred people that were in there—Christ, camping outside—and Dad didn’t want to stay in the shanty. We built a little setup there under the tree and, ah, we slept outside. (Laughter.) Well, then as I’d grow older I would come back, and, and he used to take me down to Pennsylvania and he used to work in the mine in the wintertime, had some cousins there, and ah, I used to go to school—I’d go to school for a couple of months of the winter, and ah, in the spring we’d come do the same thing, go construction work, and I was waterboy. Finally I got a job as in a transfer, trucking, freight, things like that. I stayed home with—we lived on Henry Street, we came on Henry Street and, ah, I then went to work in the freighthouse, and trucking, that’s about, oh, about two years I work in the freighthouse.
O’Neil: What freighthouse, Danny?
Celeste: The Lackawanna.
O’Neil: The Lackawanna.
Celeste: Yeah, Lackawanna Transfer, they used to call it. Transfer, Lackawanna Transfer, and ah, from there I went to the, I went to Dunn McCarthy. I got a job in Dunn McCarthy and worked there for a little while, 1914, 1915. I went away for a little time—I went to Chicago—I spent six months there, stayed with a friend of mine. I couldn’t get a job then, then hard times, them days. Came back home, I got a job in a shoe factory afterwards, ah.
O’Neil: E.J. [Endicott Johnson]?
Celeste: No, not E.J.
O’Neil: Dunn McCarthy.
Celeste: Dunn McCarthy. I worked there for about a year, then I went to E.J.’s, got a job in E.J.’s. Then 19—late 1915, I joined the Battery C, National Guard.
O’Neil: Umhm.
Celeste: The following year we got called in the service and went to the Mexican border in 19—1916, and ah, after we come back from the border, we were home for about three or four months, then the War was declared.
O’Neil: This was the First World War.
Celeste: First World War. Then we went on active service in ’17, May ’17. ‘18 we come home, we got home in March, March 12 from overseas duty.
O’Neil: Umhm.
Celeste: After I come home from service, I started the restaurant in, ah, I think it was in June—I opened up that restaurant Henry Street and I spent the rest of my life in the restaurant business.
O’Neil: Now this, what year was it you started up in, ah—?
Celeste: 1919.
O’Neil: 1919, OK.
Celeste: 1919. Then of course we didn’t have no license them days, you know—just the restaurant, but we did bootlegging at first—(laughter)—sold a little wine, a little whiskey.
O’Neil: Did you make your own wine, Danny?
Celeste: Yeah—oh God, yeah.
O’Neil: Was it the “Dago red” wine?
Celeste: “Dago red,” what they called “Dago red.” One year I made 100, 107 barrels of wine.
O’Neil: Is that right? Where did you get the grapes for all that?
Celeste: California.
O’Neil: California.
Celeste: A fella used to, John Morelli, used to bring it in from California, and he was a cousin of mine so I made all this wine, and a short time later, got it made—I put a little here, a little there. They raid me—they took about thirty barrels away from me but I got a lot more left.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: So I followed up that business and stayed right in the business—when the License came back, why, ah, I got the restaurant and liquor license and beer license and got in the right business and was there until 1919-1960 when the State bought Henry Street out, you know, to put that overhead.
O’Neil: Yeah, right, Brandywine.
Celeste: Bought part of Henry Street and they had to take me down.
O’Neil: Right, right.
Celeste: Goddamn thing, my, my poor wife got sick over it.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: Then she, ah, we were doing good business.
O’Neil: Oh, you did a fine business down there.
Celeste: Did a good business down there, and I had the whole family—my daughter was married and living upstairs and we live on the second floor—had all the accommodations we want and we lived fine and, ah, no complaint. Came here on Court Street—we bought the place and remodeled.
O’Neil: What was it called then, Danny? The place on Court Street?
Celeste: What was it called?
O’Neil: Yeah, was there a restaurant there before?
Celeste: It was a grocery store.
O’Neil: Oh, a grocery store.
Celeste: It was Buck’s Grocery.
O’Neil: Oh, Buck’s—-yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Celeste: And then, ah, so we torn down everything inside and built it up new and everything. I put in over $100,000 in the goddamn place.
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: Why, I wanted to buy my son-in-law a liquor store, but he liked the restaurant business.
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: That’s bad today, like the restaurant business. That’s all right—the hell, one thing is as good as the other.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: He liked the work and poor Bill had to get sick.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: Of course when Bill give up and I stayed a little while myself—I couldn’t take care of it, know what I mean, then.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: Got in trouble with my eyes and started putting me down a little bit. After my wife died in ’68, I hang around the place a little bit with other boys, you know that I—-it wasn’t just right, I didn’t feel just right.
O’Neil: Right.
Celeste: So when I sold the place—the first time I sold it—
O’Neil: What year was that?
Celeste: ’60—1960, sold the restaurant on Court Street.
O’Neil: ’60—1960.
Celeste: Yeah.
O’Neil: OK.
Celeste: And, ah, 1960, and then I stood around town—didn’t do too much. I used to hang around the restaurant, help Jim—-I can’t think of his last name now. Was Jim—oh God almighty, Jim, Jim—
O’Neil: No matter.
Celeste: Just ah, well, he spent, Jim spent about three years in there then and left his son in there, and his son run the business himself and then, ah, somebody else took it over then there.
O’Neil: Was that LaMonica?
Celeste: Jim—no, not LaMonica. He’s from Endicott. Jim, ah, Capullo, Jim Capullo.
O’Neil: Umhm.
Celeste: And he’s in there for about three or four years, and boy did and then they run the place down—then they sold it.
O’Neil: Umhm.
Celeste: And, ah, get started again, and that’s the end of it for me. That’s when these other guys come in, laid around and operated a Greek restaurant.
O’Neil: The Retsina now.
Celeste: Yeah.
O’Neil: Now when did you—now from the time that you were—your place was torn down on Henry Street, didn’t you go to the Community Lounge?
Celeste: Yeah, yeah.
O’Neil: What year, what year did you go there?
Celeste: Oh, I had still run on Henry Street at the time.
O’Neil: Oh, you still had the place on Henry Street.
Celeste: Yeah, yeah, I went in there with Bill Viglione. Remember Bill?
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: And, ah—
O’Neil: What year was that, Danny?
Celeste: ’47.
O’Neil: ’47.
Celeste: I just spent a couple of years there—I didn’t stay there. I went back to Henry Street there, came back to Henry Street and stayed there until after we sold—changed over then, you know.
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: ’47 or ’48, ’49, I forgot who, then somebody else went in there—well, they operated, anyway.
O’Neil: Now, who was the prior owner of the Community—he had an Irish name—what was his name? You took it over from him—he died, do you remember his name?
Celeste: Just can’t think of his name now. His brother used to run the place on Water Street.
O’Neil: Umhm.
Celeste: Remember those places—one on Chenango Street, used to run—took Yannuzzi’s place?
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: Oh God, I forget.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: Quite a nice fellow.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: Yeah, we took it from this fella—I can’t think of his name now.
O’Neil: Why did you, why did you leave the Community, ah, Danny?
Celeste: I, ah, I didn’t like too much confusement with, with other confusement.
O’Neil: Yeah. When you were working there, did Liberace, was he—did he come?
Celeste: Oh yes, yes, Liberace played there. Sure, sure, the Community.
O’Neil: In what year was that, did you recall?
Celeste: Well, I say Liberace played there in ’47, ’48.
O’Neil: ’48—about a year or so after you took over.
Celeste: Yeah.
O’Neil: Any other, ah, ah, big names play there in the Community that you can recall?
Celeste: I can’t just, ah, geez—you remember more than I do. (Laughter.) No, I don’t, to tell you the truth—we always had a band there.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: And, ah, of course, Liberace was quite an entertainer there.
O’Neil: Yeah—do you remember what he was paid a week at that time?
Celeste: Oh, couldn’t have, about $100, not more than $150 a week.
O’Neil: Is that right?
Celeste: Yeah.
O’Neil: He’s a multimillionaire today.
Celeste: Right, yes—well, we passed it.
O’Neil: Now, what were some of the main restaurants in town, Danny, during your era? What would you say were the main restaurants in town? We had quite a few of them.
Celeste: Garvey’s.
O’Neil: That was up on the north side.
Celeste: No, Garvey’s was on Chenango Street.
O’Neil: On Chenango Street, but on the north side, though, wasn’t it?
Celeste: Yeah, towards the—no, not on the north side—right on the, near the bank.
O’Neil: Oh, was he?
Celeste: Yeah, Garvey’s and Hodge.
O’Neil: Steve Hodge.
Celeste: Steve Hodge—on State Street was a nice restaurant.
O’Neil: Pitch’s.
Celeste: Pitch’s.
O’Neil: Pitch’s Oyster House.
Celeste: Well, Pitch’s was on State Street, I think.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: Pitch’s on State Street, yeah, I think they got State Street.
O’Neil: And then they had a restaurant in the Bennett Hotel.
Celeste: Oh yeah, the Bennett Hotel, they had a restaurant.
O’Neil: Yeah—San Souci Grill. (Laughter.)
Celeste: You tell me, you remember all those things—I should remember, but anymore.
O’Neil: How old are you, Danny?
Celeste: I’ll be 80 in July.
O’Neil: 80 in July, OK, and how old were you when you emigrated from Italy?
Celeste: I was 10 years old.
O’Neil: 10 years old, uh huh, so your education is—what would you say was the highest grade that you went to?
Celeste: In the third grade in Italy.
O’Neil: Third grade in Italy, and over here you went to school.
Celeste: I went to school about four or five months over the time.
O’Neil: All the time?
Celeste: Yeah.
O’Neil: Is that right?
Celeste: And I went to night school later in the years, you know. I took up a little night school.
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: That’s nights I went to school.
O’Neil: Uh huh—now, when you started on Henry Street, ah, did you buy a building to start your restaurant?
Celeste: We lease it first, but I put the business, we bought the building, in 1919 we bought the building.
O’Neil: But you leased it at first.
Celeste: Yeah, we leased it first—we rented from, hooo, geez—a good Irish name, too, Irish family, very nice, ah, the boy’s still walking around—Danny—I can’t think of his last name now.
O’Neil: But you leased it when you came back out of service after World War I?
Celeste: Yeah.
O’Neil: After World War I, so about 1918.
Celeste: 1919.
O’Neil: And started in business for yourself? And you leased the building, is that right?
Celeste: Oh, we used to live there.
O’Neil: Oh, you used to live there.
Celeste: We moved in there in 1911.
O’Neil: Oh, but was it a brick building then or did you remodel it?
Celeste: We remodeled the front.
O’Neil: Oh, I see.
Celeste: I put the—I remodeled the front.
O’Neil: Umhm.
Celeste: It was around 1930, ’31 that I remodeled the front.
O’Neil: I see.
Celeste: Just before, before the beer came back.
O’Neil: Yeah, but from the time you opened up until the repeal of the Eighteenth Amendment, why, you made your own wine, is that right?
Celeste: Yeah, oh yeah, made—Christ, made all kinds of wine. (Laughter.)
O’Neil: Probably made more money on the wine than you did on the spaghetti, huh?
Celeste: Oh God, yes—-well was 25¢ a bottle.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: 25¢ a bottle, $1.00 a gallon.
O’Neil: Uh huh. Well, they raided you when—raided you one year and took thirty barrels?
Celeste: They raided me the year they took thirty barrels away from me.
O’Neil: Left you better than seventy barrels left, huh?
Celeste: That Slocum son of a bitch—they still call him a son of a bitch.
O’Neil: Slocum?
Celeste: Yeah.
O’Neil: What was he, ah—
Celeste: He was, ah, squad, ah, him and, ah, a Polish fella they got—he’s still, ah, retired now. I see him once in a while.
O’Neil: Yeah—it don’t matter.
Celeste: Yeah, ah, Barvinchak.
O’Neil: Barvinchack.
Celeste: Yeah, they come in and said they just wanted to see the place, you know, just, ah—
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: And, ah, they had a party upstairs—well, this was upstairs, well, you know, before had some upstairs and downstairs—ah, they come upstairs, they wanted to see what was in there, and Christ, I had a supply of beer for the night, you know, stuff, wine and things like that—said, “We’ll have to take it, you can’t drink.” They took it all with them, broke it later—I don’t know if they broke it.
O’Neil: Did you make beer too?
Celeste: Oh yeah, oh yeah, Christ, beer. Boy, my wife used to make beer and she made a damn good beer.
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: One lady came up to me—show her how to make beer. My God, and she improved every time she made beer.
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: She made a damn good brew. Very, a lot of people used to come up for that brew.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: And, ah, up to 1929-30, we had our own beer, our own wine, you know how it is.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: But we got the [inaudible] back of beer, when the regular beer came back, then I took everything out—give it away, most of the stuff was left. Whatever was left I give my, “Why here, here’s a case of beer.” I didn’t want to be implicated in, ah, you know, mean, find fault for coming back and say, “He’s still bootlegging,” and things like that.
O’Neil: Yeah, yeah.
Celeste: So I started to live a very clean life from that time on—nice business.
O’Neil: I know you had a real good business.
Celeste: Had a nice business.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: Had a good chef—couple of chefs, used to put on a good feed.
O’Neil: Yeah, yeah.
Celeste: And I helped in the kitchen lots of the time.
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: Used to get in the kitchen, and then after my daughter got married and my son-in-law took over, I just hanged around the place—I didn’t have much to do.
O’Neil: Yeah, Yeah.
Celeste: That’s how I happened to go in the Community that time.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: But I was glad to get back home again.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: I had a place on Henry Street right next to the morning Sun—you know there used to be a morning Sun and used to be on the corner of State.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: And just that building next door, there, and ah, on the second floor we had the, we had a restaurant there, had a—
O’Neil: What year was this?
Celeste: In 1928 or ’29.
O’Neil: So you had two of them going at the same time, and ah, how long were you in that business, or how long had you retained that?
Celeste: Oh, was in there—this friend of mine, John, he was quite a card player—he liked to gamble and he used to go out. Well, we broke up—we didn’t. You know, lot’s of times you came in and bought a drink and I took the money, I ring the money, “No sale.”
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: And, and put the money in there, ’cause I didn’t want those people to think marked “Liquor” on the register, and John said, ah, “Why don’t you ring the—?” I say, “John,” I say, “lots of time the inspectors come in—the food inspectors, and they like to check.” I didn’t want to show what we sell because we wasn’t supposed to have any beer.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: But anyway, we broke up—we couldn’t get along no more—I couldn’t trust him no more, he didn’t trust me, and I, I had to quit.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: When a person don’t trust me, I don’t like to be involved, to think that I was gypping him and other things.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: Finally applied for—used to work up up at the tax office in the city—it’ll come to me sometime when I don’t want to—
O’Neil: Hennessy.
Celeste: Not Hennessy, no.
O’Neil: Sheehan.
Celeste: Ah—
O’Neil: What awards have you had in—had any awards at all, Danny? Militarily or in the restaurant business or anything like that?
Celeste: No, no.
O’Neil: Any clubs you belong to?
Celeste: Oh, I belong to the Eagles, belong to the Elks for quite, ah—joined, belonged to the Eagles, the Moose them days—I used to join them and get acquainted with the people.
O’Neil: Right.
Celeste: Used to go down to the Veterans’ Clubs, you know, VFW and Legion.
O’Neil: Uh huh—were you pretty active in the Legion affairs?
Celeste: I was very active, yeah.
O’Neil: Uh huh, did you hold any offices in the Legion?
Celeste: No no, was a Sergeant in the Drum Corps and that’s all when it first started, and then, ah, I done a lot of work that I should have done that I used to go to the Legion a lot.
O’Neil: Yeah, yeah.
Celeste: Help the Legion out that way.
O’Neil: Is there anything else of interest, Danny, you would like to tell me? Can you think of anything else?
Celeste: God, I think I’ve told you everything you wanted to know.
O’Neil: Uh huh.
Celeste: You can ask me, I mean, if I can—
O’Neil: Yeah. Yeah, ah, when you went into service, of course you had already been in the service—you joined up so you weren’t, you didn’t have to go through any Draft Board or anything in World War I?
Celeste: No, no.
O’Neil: Yeah, yeah.
Celeste: No—was in Battery C.
O’Neil: Yeah—in Battery C.
Celeste: I joined them in 1915, just before 1916. Then the War broke out and they organized it—they called the guards out—they shipped us down to the Mexican border there in (McClellan trucks) and we were down there for five or six months and, ah—
O’Neil: Now the Retsina building—you still own it, don’t you now, Danny?
Celeste: Yeah, I still own it.
O’Neil: So you just lease it to the—
Celeste: Lease it.
O’Neil: And it’s a Greek restaurant, I guess, now.
Celeste: Yeah.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: And I got that parking lot over on the corner of Pine and Carroll Street.
O’Neil: Oh, do you lease that out to Dietzsch, Dietzsch Pontiac and Cadillac?
Celeste: Yeah.
O’Neil: That’s good, that’s good.
Celeste: Yeah, I want to sell it. I got a little mortgage still going on, but I want to sell the restaurant—get rid of it.
O’Neil: Yeah—Giant made you any offer or anything else, or are they interested at all?
Celeste: Well, I don’t think those boys there got any money. I don’t know who’s backing them up, but, ah—
O’Neil: Well, they’ve got a lot of money. (Laughter.)
Celeste: Think so. I hope so, I hope so.
O’Neil: ’Course, there’s quite a bit of property between you—well, not an awful lot—not an awful lot.
Celeste: I think someday that, that corner will be torn down for a little hotel. You know, that’s a fine sport for a little hotel right in center part of the city.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: And I wish somebody would start it and promote, I mean, I’m not in the real estate business, but I mean, I can see a hotel on that corner better than I can see where the hell, down out of the way where transient is, not, you know, I mean, like on Water Street, where the ah—what’s the hotel there on—the big hotel they got?
O’Neil: You mean the Treadway?
Celeste: Yeah, the Treadway.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: That’s out the way and you can’t even see it. Here’s one in the center of the city where traffic, transient business all, all the way around.
O’Neil: Yeah.
Celeste: And I think that it’d make a swell spot for a hotel.
O’Neil: OK, and what church do you belong to, Danny? Still belong to—
Celeste: St. Mary’s Church.
O’Neil: St. Mary’s—still go there. Yeah, OK, well if there isn’t anything else that you can think of, Danny, why—
Celeste: Just ask me.
O’Neil: Well, we’ll terminate it on this note.
Celeste: Anything, anything that you like to.
O’Neil: Well, I think we’ve covered everything that I, we want to—I mean, I can think to ask you. you’ve been in the restaurant business all your life and been very successful at it. You retired in what year?
Celeste: ’60, ’69—1970.
O’Neil: 1970, OK, well would you like me to play it back for you, Danny?
Celeste: (Laughter.)
",,,,"33:12 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Daniel Celeste",,,,1978-04-11,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Celeste, Daniel -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Restaurateurs -- Interviews; Prohibition; National Guard; Community Lounge; Security Mutual Building",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d5deed368bb569b2f03087c3e7131d72.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e0e62d3349c85c9806041a4619a4f48c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/935e8e0158f9398477e01e0a61b4fe85.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7847351666aecdce6b7e290619a7423e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4e9a11c48a773f5a097cd308facb2010.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/df83f20f337252b6a5ffe77598322064.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/14f3a14c117c5e5a487eb28bf180f5c8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c72bf4ff73e836bb596162c1a563a627.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b8dcbb7f9086ed95bd25234149212992.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a091f7614e28b3c73a06db3658856556.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bc8a7230aed49f8f0d5b11b87033a01f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3e0826b71d6486f541fc6152a3d73dc8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/906ade5ecc0328915ee14404f7cda524.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/18e0b6b24aaea2742dd40d4053b996c3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f3c8ac726cd3e7a85a492b044159ce4d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1e3b04449680b062e68eb5f611194b0e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bc090ac28079de3a368c729ad7f6c3e6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/600a1e85c69a527c1c0afe6b6c3e812f.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 530,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/530,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"29:43 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Fred Ondrako ",,"Ondrako, Fred ; Dobandi, Susan",,"audio/mp3 ","Ondrako, Fred -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Forest City (Pa.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Cigar industry; Dunn & McCarthy cigar factory; St. Cyril & Methodius Church","Fred Ondrako talks about his short early childhood in Forest City, PA. He discusses working in a silk mill and a coal mine while living in Pennsylvania. After moving to Binghamton he went to work at the Dunn McCarthy cigar factory and remained there fifty-one years. He also mentions serving many years as an usher for St. Cyril & Methodius Church. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-04-19,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 46 ",,"Dobandi, Susan","Ondrako, Fred",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mr. Fred Ondrako
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 19 April 1978
Susan: Mr. Ondrako, could you start by telling us where you were born, something about your parents, and how you happened to settle here in Broome County?
Fred: I was born in Forest City, Pennsylvania May 24, 1905. I went to school in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania schools there. My father worked on a railroad for about two dollars an hour. I mean two dollars a day and they're emigrated from Czechoslovakia. Well I never saw my grandmother or grandfather either.
Susan: A lot of us haven’t—so continue.
Fred: Well I don't know now where to go to.
Susan: Where did you go to school?
Fred: I went to school in Forest City—
Susan: —talk up.
Fred: I went to school in Forest City to school in Pennsylvania at the No. 1 School.
Susan: How many years?
Fred: Well I just finished 8th grade then I went to work in a grocery store. I worked in a grocery store while I was attending school and from the grocery store I went a to work in a to help out in a silk mill for a couple hours in the evening and I was old enough to go to work in a in the mines in a breaker in the mines. I worked there for 10¢ an hour. That's about what I had there we a— We moved to Binghamton, NY, at 1920. I started I looked an ad in the paper, I got a job trying to sell some salves—salves and medicine which I worked there one day I couldn't make no sales and a I got a for that sale I made I come—I made that—I made that money I picked up for they sent me out for something to deliver that day when I got through there I quit that day. I got 10¢ for that one pick up there and then a I went—I went to work in a cigar factory on Wall St. in Binghamton, NY. I worked there and had a branch office at a by the theater—that theater over there—
Susan: Continue, it's all right.
Fred: I can't think of that street. I was transferred to a cigar factory up on upper Clinton St. and from there I got a job in Dunn McCarthy’s and I worked there for fifty-one years and one day and that was hard work. I a put on, I had a clock on me on my belt. There was days I walked 18-19 miles a day. I started out with 25¢ an hour and when I built myself up to 40-45¢ an hour I was the happiest man in the world. That was something that's the tops I thought I was doing good which everyone wanted to get that 45¢ an hour an average. That was something we a had slow times during the Depression and I worked about 2 or 3 days a week there made nine-ten dollars for a week for the two or three days we worked and I—I was married I had one daughter. We had a to get along with $9-10 a day (meant to say week). If it wasn't for a break from my mother-in-law, why I could never make it.
Susan: Tell us what you did as a child for fun?
Fred: When I was a youngster a boy this was when I was just a kid we used to go for in a—we used to go for strawberries first that was strawberry season we have to go for strawberries that was about a few miles out in the woods there get strawberries and then a blueberry season come in we used to go to get up I was seven years old we used to get up about 5-6 in the morning walk up the blueberry mountain there with our pails and a—a the mountain was pretty well infested with rattlesnakes there.
Susan: I was going to say that there was a danger.
Fred: There was danger there where a we went to when I'd kneel down and tried to pick some berries up I'd make sure I didn't see no snakes around and after we got through why we had to take a bath and a a take our buckets or pails about 2 ten quart pails—2 ten quart pails and take a street car it used to cost us 5¢ to go about 10 miles to try to sell them. We used to take the berries and leave them in a hotel there we asked them if we could leave them there and a we left them there and we tried to get some sales first before we went to pick and see how many quarts they want why we left them there by time we come back we there was a lot of berries missing—there was quarts of berries missing some people stole them on us we'd come back home again we didn't have enough money. My mother would say where the money was well I said, “a I don't know,” I said, “I come back there wasn't all my berries weren't there someone must have stolen them,” so then I—I got a 5¢ for all that work for going up berry mountains, washed up, take a bath and tried to sell some berries. I come back and then I got 5¢ to go to the Nickolet. About the way my parents were—
Then a when we done anything—anything wrong my parents a punish us for that. We didn't get away with anything and my father was the protector. My mother wanted to hit us but my father (chuckle) said, “No don't hit them,” after my father didn't want to so my mother hit us—hit me and she a she pushed him on the side and I really got it. We had to obey just what we were taught. We had to obey that if not we got a licking for it. We didn't get away with nothing them days.
Susan: How how about your children how did you raise your children?
Fred: And a my children I raised my children up I think pretty good. They obeyed good they listened a to what I told them then a when I gave them an allowance. I knew the allowance I was getting. Some other kid might have been getting a dollar or so over a dollar a week and I was only giving my children only 25¢ a week.
Susan: And they worked for it.
Fred: They done the work my son done the cleaning of the house when we were working me and my wife were working they a my son cleaned the house there he took care of the house.
Susan: What is he doing today?
Fred: Oh now today he's got a real job. All he went was through high school and a he got a job in Vail Ballou and a they were all picking on him stuff like that. He didn't like the way they were picking on him because they told him he was too young to have the job he had. He was a printer there that was one of the best jobs you can get in a printing place so he had a man that worked in a Vail Ballou. He was a pretty well off there and he was a big boss there so he asked him to come to Vermont to try to get him up there so he went up there for a few months. He was going up there back and forth trying to get that job. He got that job up there and a he as soon as he come up there he—he a came back to see his wife and his two children. He come back to Binghamton here and he got sick so he had been in the hospital for a few weeks there and he wasn't even working and really you know he didn't do any work in that place where he was supposed to start and they paid his hospital bill without even working over $2,000 hospital bill. Then when he came back there well he started to work and they gave him a good job, a guaranteed job. They signed him up with a contract for a job. He got a really good job out of it. The man that gave him the job up there he was a the Vice President of the company. He was the general manager and he gave my son this a job as a superintendent of the place.
Susan: Why don't we go back a bit and tell us what you can remember about that a Mr. Kilmer’s medicine that we were talking about earlier. The Swamp Root, wasn’t it?
Fred: Yeah but I didn't work for him.
Susan: No but you knew of it when they were selling it?
Fred: Yeah.
Susan: Do you recall how much it sold for?
Fred: No I don't, think it sold for about 10¢ or 12¢ something like that. It was there I remember I got to that was in the paper advertised. I went there before that was near a someplace—near a Symphony Theater, the place near Symphony Theater—
Susan: —Symphony Theater—
Fred: —there was—
Susan: What other changes do you remember that have happened since you have been living in the community? You've been here a long time.
Fred: Oh the changes here. Ah there was nothing I knew there was street cars here.
Susan: Were you around when they had that big fire on a—?
Fred: That was just before we came here.
Susan: Just before you came here.
Fred: About 1918 or ’19, we came here in 1920.
Susan: Have you enjoyed living here in the Triple Cities?
Fred: Oh yeah—yeah and I worked hard.
Susan: Fifty one years you said.
Fred: Fifty years and one day. Well I saved everything I could to have something.
Susan: Well you have a lovely home to show for it.
Fred: I was buying bonds there I started first a buck or two for a week then I went up—
Susan: Did you—did the war affect your life in any way?
Fred: Oh I signed up for the draft but they didn't call me.
Susan: They didn't call you.
Fred: They didn't pick my number you see. They didn't pick my number. They didn't call me. —Clears as things oh I had this place changed everything is changed here. There used to be street car tracks.
Susan: What about here on Clinton St.? Do you remember when they used to call it Russian Broadway when they had all the lights, those beautiful lights that they had?
Fred: Oh they did call it—I think they called it Slovak Blvd. or something like that.
Susan: Slovak—I always heard that it was Russian Blvd.
Fred: I think they call it Slovak. There is more Slovaks down here I think than Russians. In our church why down in Pennsylvania we started going to church in Pennsylvania. We didn't have our own church. There was a Polish church a Polish church a—
Susan: What church do you attend now?
Fred: St. Cyril’s.
Susan: St. Cyril’s.
Fred: I've been an usher for 44 years.
Susan: Forty-four years.
Fred: Yeah Forty-four years. That's a lot of years 51 and now 44 years as an usher I quit, every week every Sunday for 44 years.
Susan: That's a long time.
Fred: Yeah. Everything is—you can't think of everything that I went through.
Susan: No I realize that it is difficult.
Fred: I went through and all that stuff I saw, my God, there was, we went down there, was around Easter, Palm Sunday it was. We went by the river. We went down to play baseball. It was nice and warm already and we were playing ball and there was a little girl on the bridge must have been about 5 or 6 years old on the swings you know kind of swings with plans to cross it so she said a little girl fell off the bridge there so we started running around along the side of the river. We saw her going down. We were going to catch up with her but the water was too fast and a that was in spring see so we're looking and looking around there and pretty soon we spotted that dress was caught on oh the limb in the river there you see and that's where we found her.
Susan: And that saved her life, or was she drowned?
Fred: Oh we didn't save her and we pulled her out and then we put her on the grass there and the way she laid on that grass where her hand and thing was. That grass where she laid down that all dried up—
Susan: Strange.
Fred: The poor little girl she laid on that grass that grass all they took her away that grass was just like she was like just the way she was laying on it one arm out and we couldn't save her going too fast and we didn't find her maybe about a half an hour later but we saw her dress stuck on the limb there then we got her out that way. Quite a while, I don't know this is a sometime—a you could get going and going with this sometime you're not in order you don't know what to start where to start there are so many things.
Susan: Right—it's hard to cover a lifetime in a short while.
Fred: Oh, I got more funny things I could tell you.
Susan: Well Mr. Ondrako I—I want to thank you for giving us this time for the interview and perhaps—
Fred: Well if you want anything else I can think of different things you want me to talk about maybe we'll do it again see like—
Susan: Maybe we will when you have a little more time.
Fred: This is - all this isn't too much and oh a lot of pranks and stuff we pull off but you can't do that they don't want this on there—(chuckle). We done so many things how we used to used to have wagons buggies you delivered your groceries by wagon—horse and wagon see—
Susan: By horse and wagon.
Fred: Yeah—their—everybody had their things behind their store there—they had things where they put their wagons and their horses in there—Halloween we'd take the wagons out—we'd take this wagon from this—this grocery store place put it in and took the other one—
Susan: —confuse them.
Fred: Turn them around sometimes we let it go down the bank—we were good boys. Oh there’s different things right sometime when you get going it's like when I was talking to you but that's different here and there a part of this and part of that. If you can get it right in rotation everything in rotation—
Susan: Right.
Fred: That's nice, that's what I was thinking of.
Susan: Well thanks for talking to us.
",,,,"29:43 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Fred Ondrako",,,,1978-04-19,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Ondrako, Fred -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Forest City (Pa.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Cigar industry; Dunn & McCarthy cigar factory; St. Cyril & Methodius Church",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9671ac1c2c5282310cd827553c8f51a0.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5112788d5c2e98fc71f823083bd61f8b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/594996697813be1c25ad3300feaf710e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/da08cb22b8152e7fe1a63557fa79fba7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/065711901d910c1e09e53afb806c7804.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2316c7e2a06e57ba577439a9bb3ce817.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/86226edc9bb4ec02f01ef7e51e508681.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/31042314aa43cb4baed8bf4406d69891.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3840e57209a50f041acf95483149b706.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/965e36cb4c33b474b70ee6e0b19e0451.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/225f8386da40428e6123cd12194e0031.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 491,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/491,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"33:09 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Marjorie Bower",,"Bower, Marjorie ; Wood, Wanda",,audio/mp3,"Bower, Marjorie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Nurses -- Interviews; World War, 1939-1945; Public health; Chenango Valley, (N.Y.); Chenango Valley Central Schools","Marjorie Bower talks about her motivations for becoming a nurse and her work in the field; nursing ethics, working as a night nurse as a post-grad, public health training in schools and in the public sector, work during WWII, and her experiences as a school nurse-teacher, and her views on the expanding field of nursing.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-04-21,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 5",,"Wood, Wanda","Bower, Marjorie",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Marjorie Bower
Interviewed by: Wanda Wood
Date of interview: 21 April, 1978
Wanda: This is Wanda Wood, interviewing Marjorie Bower of Highover Road, Chenango Bridge. The date is the 21st of April, 1978. Marge, you've recently retired from, ah, the nursing profession, and we'd like to know something about your early years of nursing and, ah, on up through until your retirement.
Marge: Well, nursing has been—ah—was my choice of professions from the time I was a little girl—ah—having had a mother who was, ah, chronically ill, and I had some knowledge of the medical profession through, ah, the doctor who took care of her, and through taking care of her myself at home. So I was rather anxious to become a nurse and, ah, to do it in a professional manner. So I was able to, ah, get in training at, ah, Binghamton General Hospital.
Wanda: Where did you—what was your early schooling, before that?
Marge: I graduated from Union-Endicott High School and, ah, I graduated in 1934 and went—ah—I was only 18 then, or 18 shortly after I graduated, so then I went immediately into training. And training was quite different in those days than it is today. We, ah, planned on, ah—our first six months of training was what we called the probationary period, and we were hazed, ah, quite a bit by the upperclassmen, and—ah—
Wanda: Do you remember any incidents about that?
Marge: Well, we were—I can't remember specific instances except being told to go get a—different kinds of instruments which, of course, didn't exist. And everybody always got a big charge out of the “probies” coming and asking for these strange instruments that were nonexistent. So they had quite a few laughs on us, but of course when—when we got to be juniors and seniors we did likewise to the probies. But, ah, it was a very strenuous training. We had to be up and have our breakfast by six—by six o'clock, and then by six-thirty we had inspection. We wore big black ties and white aprons and starched uniforms, black stockings and black shoes. And if everything wasn't perfect, we were sent back to our rooms to make it perfect—that is, our bow tied right and our apron exactly, ah, pristine white, and if—if it wasn't in that condition we—we were sent back, and we were still expected to be on the ward at five of seven where we had transfer. And during the day, we were supposed to have two hours off during the day. We were very fortunate if we got it, because the head nurse always seemed to—it seemed to us—to delight at finding some extra duty for us to do. That extra duty could be cleaning medical cabinets, cleaning up utility rooms, straightening up, ah, bath trays. I might say that the bath tray—that every patient had a bed bath because patients stayed in bed a long time. In my early period we had, ah—that was before penicillin and before the antibiotic drugs, so nursing care was extremely important for medical patients and for surgical patients too, because we had nothing really to combat, ah, infections. And some of it was sad times because we saw many people die, that today would have been back working in ten days, from pneumonia or from a post-op infection. But we lived through it and—ah—
Wanda: What were the hours?
Marge: The hours were, ah, seven to seven, with supposedly two hours off during the day. Now we had class time, and if our supervisor on the floor could arrange it, she made sure that our two hours off was our class time. But sometimes she couldn't do that, so we might have an extra hour when we could sit comfortably in class. And in class we—had a—nurse's training had advanced to the point where we had a great deal of Anatomy and Chemistry. We had laboratory work. We had Nursing Ethics and—ah, I'd like to say something about nursing ethics in those days, because that was the day when—ah, if you were on a ward and a doctor came anyplace within your presence, you stood, and although you didn't salute, you were at attention. And you stayed that way until the doctor left the floor, and—ah, I was quite surprised several years later to, ah, be accompanying a physician friend on a floor and have her, ah, looking at a chart and see a student nurse come over and say, ""I am sorry, Doctor, but I need this chart,"" and remove the chart from the doctor's hands. And I—I was astounded because—ah, we—ah, couldn't think of that in our time, if we had to stay on duty an extra hour to do our chart, we would have stayed and not dared to even approach the doctor who was reading a medical record. But, ah, that's a change in the times, and when I think sometimes back to—ah, the way—when we were, felt that we were so subservient, that I, I, I’m glad of the progress, really.
Wanda: And that's just been a few short years, really.
Marge: That's just been a short—it seems like a few short years—I suppose it's been quite a few, really. But—I graduated from training in, ah, 1937 and went immediately to work as a night nurse at General Hospital. And the hours then were—ah, twelve hours, seven to seven. My pay was—ah—eighty-five dollars a month. If you worked days it was eighty, but because I worked nights it was, it was eighty-five. They gave us a stipend of five dollars for working the night shift.
Wanda: And did you live—did you live in the hospital?
Marge: We lived in—we lived in the, what we called the dorm, and had a—had a small room. It, it was, it was adequate and—ah, the living conditions were good, but we were still under the strict supervision of, ah, nursing ethics, and in those, you didn't go overtown unless you, ah,
wore gloves and a hat—at all times. And I remember distinctly, one time, my mother had bought me a—a quite expensive hat. It was real nice, and I was coming back from overtown across the Washington Street bridge, and the wind came up and my beautiful hat blew into the river.
Wanda: Oh no.
Marge: I got back to the nursing home and one of the supervisors saw me walk in without a hat on. And this was the time when I was a graduate nurse, but I was still called on the carpet for having been overtown in unladylike apparel, because I lacked a hat. And no explanation that my hat, which had cost so much, had blown into the river, would suffice. So I, ah, of course, was a little bit beyond the area where they could dole out punishment, but I did feel reprimanded and made sure I wore a hat for the next few years.
Wanda: With a hat-pin!
Marge: Well, I—I never got one with a wide brim after that. Or else took it off going across the bridge. And then my mother became quite ill because—ah—so I quit, ah, nursing at the hospital and took care of her for a year. And after her death I went back into public—into private duty. And I found that quite satisfying, I—through all of this period I really—there is a great deal of satisfaction in nursing because—ah, during my—during my night period of nursing I—I really would like to mention some of that because, ah, I think some of the nurses today perhaps don’t see it because it is gone, become such a technical field, but it was—ah—a real great, ah, feeling to have somebody who had come in in the middle of the night in a bad accident and then have them several days later, ah, tell you that it was your presence and your smile that really helped see them through a difficult period of life when they had no family around for a few hours and things were so rough. And with the roads the way they were, General Hospital was in the area where we saw many tragic accidents coming down Conklin Avenue and Vestal Avenue, and of course they were admitted at General. And the comfort you could give parents and relatives when they came in after somebody was hurt—and I don’t think there’s any other field—professional field—where you really have this satisfaction of really being close to a person in their hour of need and fulfilling that need. And no matter what the other circumstances of nursing were, you did have that special and personal satisfaction, even though the pay was low. And I—I did private duty for about three years and then I decided to go on into an area of specialization, so I went to Syracuse University and, ah, did work in Public Health. And I worked for a year and a half in Public Health in Onondaga County. And that, too, had its special compensations in going into homes and dealing with families as a whole unit, from childhood to the old-aged.
Wanda: How did it differ in Syracuse? Were you connected with a hospital up there?
Marge: No. I was not connected with a hospital. I was in—
Wanda: —an agency?
Marge: No. I was in Syracuse University and after I finished my special preparation for Public Health, ah, we had student experience there. I worked in schools for a bit—for school—for student experience as a Student Public Health Nurse and then I worked with, ah—what they called the VNA. That was a Visiting Nurse Association in Syracuse who did home nursing, where in that period of time we went into homes and—ah, gave—ah, maybe gave a bath and taught parents and family to take care of elderly people who were bed-ridden and might go in for shots. And this was during the War and doctors were very scarce, so our services were in great demand. And it was a very busy time for me—both as a student and then when I finished my training I worked for the Onondaga County Nursing Association. Worked out of the Town of Marcellus and the Town of Tully. And the—of course the War was still going on, so that we really were very—we were very busy and yet it was very satisfying to, ah, do this, and of course it was much different. You didn't have the close supervision that you'd had in the hospital. And because of the lack of doctors, nurses were called upon to do a great deal more. We did a lot in pre-natal work, and checking the parents and in instructions. It was—Public Health is mainly a preventative and a teaching program. And it was interesting.
Then I came back—my Dad was sick and I had to resign from that position and I spent a year at home with him. And after that—ah, I decided to go in—I had an opportunity to do school nursing for the Broome County—ah, is it County Board of—the Broome County Board of, ah, Services [Broome County Board of Extension Services]. Anyway, they provided school nurses for the schools in Broome County who did not have their own school nurse-teacher. Then, because after I’d worked for them a while, I could see that this required further specialization, I went back to school and took nurse—courses in school nursing—school nurse-teaching.
Wanda: At Syracuse?
Marge: I took some at Syracuse, but I started with—a Syracuse Extension at Harpur, and I took some at Harpur and through the next—ah—because I stayed in school nurse-teaching from then until my time of retirement three years ago, I, ah, took courses at Cortland and Oneonta and, ah, did get my Bachelor's degree from Oneonta. So that I would be fully qualified for doing school nurse-teaching.
Wanda: That must have been quite a new branch of nursing at that time, wasn’t it?
Marge: It—it really wasn’t a new branch of nursing. There had been the school nurse-teachers, but just a few, but—ah, during the next few years from 1947 on, school nurse-teaching grew because there was a need for it in the schools. There was a need for people—nurse-teachers who understood and could put the nursing profession really into the teaching situation, where you had children and you could teach Health along with giving the necessary care and preventative medicine. It was—it was a combination of public health and teaching in a—almost a captive, ah, audience group.
Wanda: Was this with young—ah—all ages?
Marge: This was with all ages. When I started, I was covering Broome County. I was doing school nurse-teaching in the Town of Binghamton, and Chenango Forks, and in Harpursville and in Port Dickinson. I covered all of those areas at, ah, various times. And of course this—this cut your time—it was a lot of travel time. We did immunization clinics in all of the schools. We did hearing tests and vision tests and tried to cover all the children in all of these schools. And although we didn't have the time for teaching then, as we would have liked to, I—I think we fulfilled a great need because many of these areas, I—for instance, areas like the Harpursville area, they only had one doctor in the town and, ah, that was Dr. Torrence and he was a wonderful man to work with. He was a G.P. and did general surgery. And also there—he was Health Officer, so all in all we—ah, between the school doctor and yourself, you did a great deal of medical work and preventative work among the children.
Wanda: Now how many other teachers—what was the staff in this—ah—?
Marge: Four. There were four of us in this, ah, when we started. Then that was phased out in 1950, ah, 1 [1951], and I went to Harpursville for a year and after going to Harpursville I, ah, had the opportunity to come to Chenango Valley Central Schools—they had just centralized and I spent the rest of my, ah, working days as school nurse-teacher at Chenango Valley. And this saw—it—it’s a great deal of satisfaction. There isn’t any area of nursing, whether it’s specialization or general practice, that there isn’t—ah, satisfaction there. It has its, ah, shortcomings, or had times when—ah, when things don't go right, or, ah, you—you can’t get something corrected that you know needs to be, because of perhaps the financial situation of the parents, they’re not able to have the child’s eyes corrected or surgery that the child may need, but by working through various agencies in the county you usually can help the parents get some help. And, ah, it—ah, I—I think it fills a need and I hate to see the trend now where school nurse-teachers are being phased out, because it is an area of specialization and you can’t put—ah, I saw the need when I went into it, that I needed more education to—to do the job, but at the present time, school nurse-teachers are being phased out and either R.N.s or clerks being hired to take their place and they, ah, put in—children of our county are being—or of our state or maybe across the nation—are being short-changed because of this. They’re not getting counseling to help counsel them in their need and—ah, also the—the mental health counseling that, ah, a school nurse-teacher can give. And I really would like to—put in a plug for that. That—ah, it's the wrong direction to take, which many of our schools are taking. Our school boards and our school administrations are, ah, not being far-sighted enough. And I realize it's because of financial reasons that—
Wanda: Is that a fact, really?
Marge: This, this, this is a real fact—that so many schools have phased out their school nurse-teaching programs and have hired R.N.s. Legally the R.N. cannot do as much and it is because we are living in a technical age, in an age of specialization. Unless the people who are fulfilling their job have the know-how, the job is not going to be done as it should be done. And in the end it's the student who is, ah, short-changed. And the student is the future parent and the future citizen of our country. And we are not doing enough in the area of, ah, sex education; we’re not doing enough in the areas of drug education in the way that it should be done; we're not doing enough in just plain health education, consumer education. Our students are being bombarded with all of these—ah, aspirin ads and medical ads on television where they’re not getting, really, the health education in school to, ah, combat this trend. And I think—ah, too many people are still saying education should just be the three Rs and feeling, because of the financial reason, that they are going back to that, and that's not preparing our children—our future parents—for the world it is. Because they’re coming up into this world, as it is.
Wanda: Do you think—do you feel that parents are bowing out of their responsibilities in that way? In educating their children on these problems that you mention?
Marge: Well I—I feel that in—in some ways parents are bowing out, but let’s face it, the parents haven't had the education themselves. What—ah, unless they have some help, how are they going to educate their children? I mean, it, it’s, it's a fast race and it's—it's just as hard for parents to keep up with it as it is for teachers. That's why we need, ah, people who are really specialized in this field. We had—ah, the State has mandated health education teachers in the schools, but, ah, some boards are getting around that by trying to have a school nurse-teacher do a school nurse-teaching job and go in the classroom too, and, ah, some are bowing out of it because, ah, they get one or two parents who, ah, object to the—the health education in the schools, and when I say health education, I mean, we know that venereal disease is, ah, on the uprise in our nation, and we, ah, conveniently may say that it's being covered in our health education classes, but ah, I think if somebody went in and observed some of the health education classes, they would find the teachers are afraid—to teach about it. Be—because of parents—a few parents' repercussions. They really feel that this isn't the thing for the school to do, but where are the boys and girls going to learn about it?
Wanda: On the streets, right?
Marge: Well, on the streets or after they have it. I—I think that, ah, our State is trying. They have passed laws so that, ah, boys and girls who feel they have—might have a venereal disease can go in and be checked for it, and it will be kept confidential. And that's a—a big plus. That's been done by the legislature. And of course they—the legislation has tried to say that we will have these things covered in school, but ah, our school administrations are, ah, reluctant to take the big step. We had a good case of that when Sue Crouse—when she went into, ah, some of the schools and with some of the Girl Scouts, where parents—ah, well, the Letters to the Editor were pretty rife in the papers for quite a few months. And, ah—this is getting maybe off the subject of nursing, but, ah, it’s something that's a community need. And I think the school nurse-teachers have been some of the first ones to see it. To try to, ah, fight for it and arrange for programs in the school. I don't know, maybe this is one of the reasons we're being phased out! But I think the big reason is financial, because I know that all of the people in education are there for the good of the children or there wouldn't be any education, or most of them. But altogether it has been a very satisfying career, and I—ah, there are many specializations in nursing and, ah, allied fields of medicine, so nursing is taking on a new dimension in—ah, the nurse-practitioner now, in which they are becoming a closer doctor's assistant in that they are going away and taking specialization in—ah, examinations. They are doing this in schools where the school pract—school nurse-practitioner will be examining children under the close supervision of the pediatrician or school physician. They are also taking specialization in working in doctors’ offices and doing initial examinations to—ah, shorten—ah, well, to assist the doctor and to maybe give him a little more time on the—ah, the—ah, critical aspects of the patient care.
Wanda: It sounds like a wonderful career for some children that don't want to go into extensive education.
Marge: That’s right. And, and it has taken such a turnabout. I mean, it has become so technical now that even in the hospitals where—ah, where in my period of training we practically stood up and saluted and bowed when the doctor came in, the nurse now is more of a co-worker with the doctor. And, ah—her, ah, place in patient care is being given more recognition, as it should be, because she is doing a great deal more and is much better trained to do it. So it's, it’s a great career and it brings you close to people—if you, if you like people and you want to help them, you want to be close to them and do as much for your community as you can, you can’t go into any better profession than nursing.
Wanda: Well, you certainly have proven that and I know you’re much admired in this community for what you’ve done.
Marge: Well, thank you.
",,,,"33:09 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Marjorie Bower",,,,1978-04-21,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Bower, Marjorie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Nurses -- Interviews; World War, 1939-1945; Public health; Chenango Valley, (N.Y.); Chenango Valley Central Schools",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1a93a8bf3d94a88f594aec0084cf81f4.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7cc0768ddb705307a3e4dddef3a76fcd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6d1bd75c6bafd994ddc580dce2469789.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/952375375adff27a180e0b216e06f5c7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dc7a5ba9a2154a48bbc51999e420396b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bdcb8ba696ab866b82a3f0bb61b06b6c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/76ff22a0753da743ea74a8b03213d683.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ee137dd73b339f7c06fe7dae7d1313c0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/737b546a4ac46e23f8d30ba4d429afab.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/83f45e36722f5553f0f3d641277df3bb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fb2a93722fd84b56582e687981285b88.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce63900a7e20529c0efa00aa71149e2b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9698301694842d574a282e6d2ce8fee6.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 514,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/514,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"44:13 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with William A. Hallahan",,"Hallahan, William A. ; O'Neil, Dan",,audio/mp3,"Hallahan, William A. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Groton (N.Y.); Baseball players -- Interviews; St. Louis Cardinals (Baseball team); World Series (Baseball); General Aniline & Film Corporation, Division of Ozalid; Little League baseball","William A. Hallahan talks about his upbringing in Binghamton and the start of his baseball career in Groton, NY at the age of 18. He discusses playing for the St. Louis Cardinals and winning 3/4 of the World Series games in which he pitched. He also notes his time as the starting pitcher for the National League in the first All Star game in 1933. He details friendships with some of the big names in baseball of the time, including Babe Ruth. He later worked for Ozalid as a foreman and also as a coach for Little League baseball.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-04-25,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,English,Sound,"Recording 30",,"O'Neil, Dan","Hallahan, William A.",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: William A. Hallahan
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of Interview: 25 April 1978
Dan: Ah Bill, would you tell me about your life and working experiences in the community, with emphasis on your baseball career?
Bill: Do you want my birth record and so forth?
Dan: Just your date and place of birth.
Bill: I was born in Binghamton.
Dan: Mhmm. Just go right ahead, Bill.
Bill: August 4, 1902.
Dan: OK.
Bill: Which makes me a senior.
Dan: A senior citizen, right.
Bill: Then I went to, ah, Robinson Street School.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: And for baseball, I went to Groton, New York—do you know where that is?
Dan: I know where that is, yes, outside of Cortland.
Bill: They had a good team. In those da , the plant, the factory supported a ball team and John Hadlik was the manager—he was a former Binghartton player with the New York State League and National League—and I was there for two years. That would be in 1922 or '23, so, ah, 21, 21 and 22.
Dan: How old were you at that time?
Bill: 18 l think, ah, so ah I did pretty well—pitched pretty well up there, and Syracuse was a Cardinal farm, of course, it was a farm then and also Hadlik was scouting for the Cardinals, so I signed with the Cardinals in 1924 at Bradenton, Florida. I remember getting into the hotel and asking where the ballpark was—clerk told me, “Go up the street a ways and turn to your right, and keep going just a few miles.” So I walked, walked it carrying your baseball suit and so on, and I got there. Ah, Herbie Sanders was our trainer at that time, and I asked him where Mr. Rickey was, you know—”find the fellow with the slouched hat near the batting cage.” I went out and introduced myself to Mr. Rickey. He called one of the catchers, Joe Sutherland—he was a veteran—and he said, ""Joe,"" he said. I just got off the train, you might say, and I was getting ready to go on up to pitch batting practice—so I pitched batting practice. It was unheard of in those days, nobody does it, but it worked out all right, and I never saw so many ballplayers because they had played from several of their farms. The Cardinals at that time had something like 25 farm teams that were players that they owned outright for important games.
Dan: But the closest was Syracuse, right?
Bill: Syracuse, right. For here, so I, ah, thought, “how are you ever going to get noticed? Who is ever going to see you with all those fellows?” So all you could do was, ah, keep moving. Oh, I'd run, run, run—chase the ball, run back with it and then hit it, and they were noticing, because on the last day of training, had us all in the big ballroom of the hotel talking. Finally he said, ""Well, there's one young,” said, “there’s a fella here that hasn't stopped running since he got here.” So I had to stand up and take a bow, so it did show, if you, ah, keep moving, somebody's going to see you.
Dan: Right.
Bill: And so, ah, I came back north with Syracuse, back up to Syracuse and stayed at Syracuse for a month, I believe, and then I went to Fort Smith, Arkansas. That was another farm, and in Fort Smith, I made all the places I never heard of before: Okmulgee, Muskogee, all those in Oklahoma and, Paron, Topeka, Kansas. I was there about three weeks, and I moved again to Kalamazoo in Michigan—Ontario League, which was beautiful, nice and cool—and, ah, I was there until the season ended, and I was doing pretty well, and I was called back to St. Louis and finished the season with St. Louis. There was quite a bit of traveling that year and we got to see all the large cities in the National League, and traveling on the trains, which was wonderful—beautiful hotels. Funny when I had never been out of Binghamton—never—so kind of a trip, you know. Well the next year, ‘25, we trained in, in Stockton, California, so there was more nice traveling. I come back and was with St. Louis, oh, ‘til June, I think, and then sent to Syracuse again. So after the season was over in Syracuse, why, I returned to St. Louis the following year, 1926. We trained in San Antonio, Texas—Roger Hornsby was the manager.
Dan: What part of Texas?
Bill: San Antonio.
Dan: San Antonio—OK.
Bill: And Roger Hornsby was the manager. I was living, I was on the trip around the circuit, as I say, when Hornsby hit .424. That's a terrific batting average.
Dan: It sure is.
Bill: So, ah, I started in spring—I stayed the full season—and it was the first Pennant and the World Series with the Cardinals won period, and the next year I returned to Syracuse and I finally went back to St. Louis ‘cause in those days the, ah, clubs could do all they wanted to. Could send you out for two years prior—call you back, keep you a year, send you out for two more, and if anybody else wanted you, why, the Cardinals were deep in players. They had the ah, the ah, farm system and it was great, so you just had to wait—so I won 19 games in Syracuse and we finished second, and they didn't have room for me in the Cardinals, so they wanted to go to Houston, Texas, because they promised me a pennant down there. So I didn't care much about going, but the ah, the, ah, General Manager of Houston came up to Binghamton during the winter to, ah, try to coax me into going down there. I thought it would be a bit too warm for me, but finally decided to go and, ah, I had a good year. I won something like 24 games, and we won the pennant and we won the Dixie Series and I, ah, went up to St. Louis that Fall for the World Series—the manager of Houston took me up. So then I talked with Mr. Rickey—I signed for the following years.
Dan: For the following years—that was what year now?
Bill: That would be 1929.
Dan: 1929, and so in other words, ah, they were in the World Series in 1928?
Bill: Yeah, but I wasn't with them.
Dan: You weren't with them but they won, they won the Series.
Bill: No—they got beat four straight.
Dan: Oh, they got beat four straight.
Bill: I went up to see them—
Dan: Oh, I see, OK.
Bill: But in 1929, ah, Billy Southworth was the manager and I didn’t get to play too much—I won 4 and lost 1 game. In 1930 Gabby Street came in and then I started out pretty good. We won the pennant that year and played the Athletics. We didn't win, we didn't win the Series, but ah I pitched a shutout—I won one and lost one.
Dan: This was in the Series?
Bill: 1930.
Dan: 1930, against the Athletics.
Bill: Mhmm, in 1931, we played the Athletics again—we won the pennant. I won 2 games, won 2 games and saved the 7th in that Series, and then in '32, '33, '34 we won the pennant and played Detroit. I started the second game in Detroit, and it was a good game and I was relieved in the 8th—pitched 8 and two thirds innings, I think. The score was tied and a man on First, and they brought in Bill Walker. He picked the man off 1st base, and the game went 12 innings—we lost 3 to 2—there was no decision. So then I stayed with the Cardinals until '36, and then I was with Cincinnati a year and with ah Philadelphia a year, and those were ah, years you like to forget, you know. In the last years, everything was downhill, but ah, ah then when I came back home, I was worked with the Atlantic baseball school—they used to have, Atlantic Oil used to have a baseball school they run the summer. Whitey Anderson was the head of the baseball school.
Dan: That's here?
Bill: Mhmm, in Binghamton, and that would be in 1940 and in 1941—the War started in December 1941.
Dan: Right.
Bill: I was in the Army in August 1942 up at Fort Niagara. They had a good ball team up there too—I didn't play—I coached a little. We played, ah, pretty good teams, and ah, I stayed up there ’til—see, March the following year in '43, I think, and we had, ah, we were over 38, you see, you get out of service—they released us.
Dan: I see.
Bill: So that's how I got out.
Dan: So in other words you just went up to Fort Niagara and you stayed there and coached baseball?
Bill: I worked in the records and assignment.
Dan: Records and assignment—but you, ah, did coach some teams up there?
Bill: Yeah.
Dan: And then you were discharged in '43.
Bill: In '43 of March, went to Ozalid, and I was with Ozalid for 20 years.
Dan: Until ‘63.
Bill: ’Til ‘63.
Dan: Uh huh, and you retired from Ozalid, and in what capacity did you work for Ozalid?
Bill: I was a foreman.
Dan: A foreman—in what department, Bill?
Bill: I was, ah, warehousing, receiving, receiving warehousing and supply clerk.
Dan: Mhmm.
Bill: And so that one time it was on Clinton Street—ah, that big warehouse that Ansco has now.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Bill; We had that when it was first built.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: So that about takes care of it.
Dan: Now getting back to your baseball career—at the height of your career, which would be with the St. Louis Cardinals when you pitched in the, ah, let’s see, the World Series against the Athletics that you won—you won 2 pennants in the 2 World Series.
Bill: We won 3 World Series out of—we was in 4 World Series—we won 3.
Dan: Yeah, pardon me just a minute Bill. (Wife turns on TV too loud). OK.
Bill: Won 2 out of 4.
Dan: Won 2 out of 4?
Bill: 3 out of 4.
Dan: 3 out of 4, OK. Now at the height of your season, what was your salary per year, Bill? Do you mind telling me?
Bill: No. I think it was around 7 or 6—I got more than most of the fellas—it was around $7,000.
Dan: $7,000—quite a difference from what they get today.
Bill: I mean, that was when I got first started. I ended up getting $13,500.
Dan: $13,500 at the height of your career—that would be pitching with the Cardinals.
Bill: Regular pitching.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: Yeah, regular pitching.
Dan: What was the best year you had in the, ah—
Bill: '31, when I won 19 and lost 9, I think, then won 2 games in the World Series, saved the 7th and deciding game—led the League in strikeouts. In 1930, I played, I led that both years, I led the League in strikeouts.
Dan: You led the league in strikeouts?
Ball: I won in walks too, probably.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: Branch Rickey used to say that if you can strike out more than you walk, why, you have some advantage.
Dan: How did you get the nickname ""Wild Bill""?
Bill: (Gesturing)
Dan: That's it—by walking.
Bill: By in and low, which you call it—control—in the early days, but ah, ah, a power pitcher always has a little more trouble with control than a—
Dan: Uh huh—now, did you ever pitch against the Yankees?
Bill: Oh, in spring training, yes.
Dan: Spring training, but not in the regular season.
Bill: No, because they're—
Dan: Same league.
Bill: They're in a different league.
Dan: Different league—yeah.
Bill: I pitched against some—quite a few of the Yankees, in fact. I started the first All-Star game in 1933—Babe Ruth hit a home run.
Dan: Off of you?
Bill: Yeah, so that's one reason.
Dan: Who were some of the other members of your team that, ah, that ah won the Series?
Bill: Oh, ah, in the thirties, '30, '31, Jim Dowling, Frankie Frisch, Pepper Martin, ah, Chick Hafey and Charlie Delbert and Jess Haines, Burley Grimes, and in ‘34 it was the Dean brothers, Paul and Dizzy Dean, Pepper Martin, Joe Medwick, Vern Lasabe—Frankie Frisch was the manager, Leo Durocher was shortstop, Rip Collins, Jim Collins was first base.
Dan: This is on the—
Bill: The ‘34 team.
Dan: ‘34 team.
Bill: '34 team.
Dan: The Cardinals.
Bill: Yeah, we beat Detroit then.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: Mickey Cochron caught and managed Detroit, but ah, I roomed with Jim Bottemly and Joe Medwick. Bill Christy and an awful lot of those fellas who were on those both teams are in the Hall of Fame.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: Yeah—quite a few of them.
Dan: Have you ever been considered for the Hall of Fame?
Bill: Oh, gee, they're standing in line waiting.
Dan: Standing in line.
Bill: They's so many of them.
Dan: Yeah—any highlights stand out in your mind at all, as far as your baseball career?
Bill: Well of course the, ah, World Series games, and in 1930 I pitched a game in Brooklyn, we went, we went into Brooklyn 1/2 game out of first place for a 3 game series, and I pitched against Dazzy Vance, who was quite a pitcher.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: So I pitched the first game and won—it went 10 innings and I beat him 1 to 0, and they said that was the game that won the pennant for us, because we won the next two games against Philadelphia, and we came back to St. Louis and the season was over at St. Louis, so ah that was quite a one that I remember, you know, especially against a pitcher like Vance—he was one of the real power pitchers in my days.
Dan: Yeah, uh huh—have you received any awards at all, Bill?
Bill: Oh nothing for, ah—
Dan: Any honors or anything like that?
Bill: Nothing, only what all the other fellas would get for being on the team—you got a World Series ring. [Shows it to Dan on finger]
Dan: Is that your World Series Ring?
Bill: That's a 1934 World Series Ring.
Dan: Uh huh—I've never seen one. Don't take it off, Bill—leave it on—don't take it off.
Bill: You can see a little better, and when we were out, ah, in—
Dan: You must have received, you must have received 3 of these.
Bill: Yeah—we got this. [Shows Dan his watch].
Dan: This is a wristwatch.
Bill: Yeah, in '76 we went to St. Louis for a reunion of the team that won the first pennant and World Series in St. Louis history.
Dan: Is that right?
Bill: And, ah, each got Longines Wittnauer from that reunion, and then I have a picture upstairs, a painting, from a photograph I got in '73—a reunion of the fellas in the first All-Star game.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: And, ah, you get a lot of, quite a few.
Dan: The fact you got three World Series rings—that's really something.
Bill: Well it is, because it has to have some measure of luck, you know, to be on the teams that are—I know a lot of the fellas that were great players that didn't even play on one team, not on our team. That's the way I happened to, ah, and at that time all the players would come up through the farm system. Today they, they come free agents and so on—we didn't have any of that.
Dan: Yeah—what do you think about the salaries that they're getting today, Bill?
Bill: Well I think—
Dan: Do you think they're worth it?
Bill: Well of course nothing is, ah.
Dan: Everything is inflation, you know, today.
Bill: It isn't what you're worth actually, it's, ah, if they can pay them, if they can make enough money.
Dan: In other words a drawing card, right?
Bill: If they can hit, why, they must deserve it—they couldn't get it, that's true.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: Things are different today, ah, in everything, is different.
Dan: ‘Course you've got to consider the fact that when, ah, when the height of your career there wasn't any television.
Bill: No.
Dan: Which is, ah, a big item.
Bill: Oh, that’s made the—ah, television and, ah, night games.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: They didn't have that—why I played most of my, ah, ah, during the Depression.
Dan: Right, right.
Bill: And every city you'd see, there'd be people hadn't seen anything ’til they see the soup lines. Those people were really hungry.
Dan: Uh huh. Now when you, ah, got out of service you went right to Ozalid—you worked there for 20 years and you're getting a pension from them, of course. Did you do any coaching at all in the 20 years that you worked?
Bill: No, the only thing I coached was the Little League when they first had the Little League team—League in Johnson City.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: And, ah, they asked me if I’d take over, and ah, we, ah, spent a lot of time with them because the kids wanted to play. We played twice a week, ah, but they wanted to have another game on Saturday, and so we used to play and, ah, we won the pennant—went as far as Liverpool, we played some of the finals—the semifinals in Liverpool.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: We got beat in Liverpool 2 to 1, but we had a good time.
Dan: You mentioned when Branch Rickey was watching you in batting practice, was that in Syracuse or was that out in St. Louis?
Bill: No, that was in Bradenton.
Dan: Bradenton.
Bill: Florida, spring training.
Dan: Oh, in spring training.
Bill: Spring training.
Dan: I see, I see.
Bill: But, ah, today everything is different of course.
Dan: Oh, sure.
Bill: In those days you'd know who, ah, one of the stars were, but today you wouldn't know—they all come out together at once—you wouldn't know who's the star and who's the rookie. The rookie is liable to have a good big a car as the stars—maybe he got a bonus for signing or something like that, and ah, everything was different—even the ballparks are all tremendous today.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: Ah, the ballparks you knew, the ballpark in Philadelphia in the National League was so small they called it ""Baker Bowl.” It was, ah, very small—the seating capacity was nothing. The Shibe park was a much better park, that was in the American League park.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: But today everything—in St. Louis is a big beautiful locker room, wall to wall carpeting all on it.
Dan: Oh, sure.
Bill: Beautiful showers.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: And the trainer has a room with all of his equipment.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: And the equipment manager, the only fellow I know on the team, Butch Yatheman—and he was a bat boy when I was there—now he is the equipment manager, so he's been there 50 years and, ah, all that, ah, ah, of course the traveling is different, everything is by plane today.
Dan: Right, right. Of course they play, probably, ah, more games per season too, now?
Bill: 160, 160—they used to play 154.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: 160 or 62. Ah, I don't think there's as much togetherness now as there were at that time, ‘cause we were together on on the train and fellas had time to talk, and you'd talk baseball even in the lobbies of the hotel in the evening, it was great for down in and hear the veterans talk, you know.
Dan: Sure, sure.
Bill: I don't know how they do that as much now, because, why, they go from St. Louis to Chicago in a couple of hours and, you know, didn't have much time to speak—you're just in the ballpark and when you're in the clubhouse.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: But, ah, sometimes we'd go from St. Louis, ah, at least once a year to Boston—Reds back too.
Dan: Mhmm. There was so much publicity over Maris breaking, ah, Ruth's homerun record that one year, but he played in more games than Ruth did.
Bill: Oh yes, they all did so, do—
Dan: Actually it isn't, it isn't a fair comparison, is it?
Bill: Well, ah, you shouldn't—it wouldn't be, because and then you'd have to look at how many walks did each get—intentional walks?
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: You can't hit if you're walked—that's for sure, and the same with Hank Aaron. I mean they keep in more games.
Dan: Yes, yes.
Bill: But if you ever checked the number of times they were walked intentionally—but that's the difference.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Bill: In my, my—those fellows deserve all the credit, you know, they—
Dan: Oh sure.
Bill: —A lot of credit, but I always thought, ah, ah, the home run hitter—I will always remember—Babe Ruth.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: I mean he looked so much the part.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: He looked, ah, ah, when he was at bat—everything stopped—came to a standstill, you know. Everybody wanted to see him swing, but he did swing because he was one that say, he looked good striking out.
Dan: Yeah. (Laughter).
Bill: You know, aren't many that said looked that good.
Dan: Right, right.
Bill: That's quite a compliment when they say you look good striking out, and oh, when we came north we always played exhibition games—now they go direct from the, ah—
Dan: Spring training.
Bill: Spring training, right, back, ah, their home base.
Dan: Right.
Bill: But we used to play all over the south—if we ever come in, ah, for instance, some of our fellows would hit a long ball. Gee, they say some native here said, “Oh, the Yankees were in here last week and he hit one, he hit one that far, you know.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: Way over there, 500 feet.
Dan: What was your best pitch, ah, Bill?
Bill: I had a fastball and a curve.
Dan: Fastball and curve, uh huh.
Bill: Yeah, and I wasn't quite as tall, as big as some of those fellows, but we had a fellow on the team—Paul Derringer, he was 6’3"" or 4"".
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: But I could throw as hard, so you make by.
Dan: You lack one thing—you make up on another.
Bill: Yeah, I could be, ah, throw hard and ah, have a terrific curve.
Dan: Uh huh—well you've got a lot of nice memories, Bill.
Bill: Oh the nice part about it, be able to look back and—
Dan: Reminisce.
Bill: When we, ah, like in ‘76 we went to St. Louis, there was 7 then out of the 27—there'd be 27 on the team.
Dan: Only 7 left out of 27?
Bill: Right.
Dan: Is that right?
Bill: Out of the first Pennant winning team—7.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: So they, they fade away.
Dan: You look good, though, Bill. Did you just get back from Florida?
Bill: That’s right—I had a little tan.
Dan: Good.
Bill: But, ah, we missed a good winter here, I guess.
Dan: (Laughter) You picked a dandy.
Bill: Well, it was bad all over the country.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Bill: It was, it was the wind every day and a chill.
Dan: Right, right.
Bill: But the sun was warm.
Dan: Uh huh—now you belong to St. Patrick's Church, Bill.
Bill: Yes.
Dan: Uh huh, but do you belong to any clubs, any fraternal organizations or anything like that?
Bill: Let’s see, I belong to the Elks, Knights of Columbus 4th Degree, ah, Veterans, Clinton Street—the 1st Ward Legion.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: Let’s see what else—the, ah, Baseball Players’ Association. I guess that's it.
Dan: That's it—now do you have a reunion every year?
Bill: Oh no—just for certain special things.
Dan: Just, just, yeah—‘course, just being 7 of you left, why—
Bill: Oh, that's first time we ever got together.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Bill: But ah, well, I've been out to Houston a couple of times—in New York too—the Stadium, and I’ve been out to St. Louis 6 or 7 times.
Dan: Is that right, yeah?
Bill: Because they'd have a reunion for all the different teams—
Dan: Right.
Bill: —that won a pennant. It's all been great.
Dan: Yeah—did you ever pitch at any old timers’ games down in Yankee Stadium? They usually have an old timers.
Bill: That's when I was out there, it was 1962 or 3.
Dan: 1962 or 3.
Bill: Yeah, but I didn't care about going out to pitch, because some of the fellows were coaching and so on, and they were in better shape than some of the older players.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: Some of the players would get, ah, what's the use if you didn't get injured during your playing days? Why do it when you're a senior?
Dan: Right, right—you never had any serious injuries, did you, playing, Bill?
Bill: No, I was fortunate.
Dan: Oh, you were lucky.
Bill: Yeah, yeah, I was able to go through all that without.
Dan: Right.
Bill: And, ah, we don't get a pension—it didn't start until ‘45.
Dan: No pension plan?
Bill: Now they get a pension in 5 years.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: I played about 11 years.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: I have a lifetime pass.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill : A silver lifetime pass—I've never used it. I hang on to it. I'd go, ah, but I don't know any of the players now.
Dan: No, no, you're going back quite a few years.
Bill: Yeah.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: If I lived a lot closer I'd go, but I'd drive down for overnight or something like that just for—
Dan: Well, is there anything else you'd like to tell me, Bill, or anything you can think of?
Bill: No, before I got hit with a respiratory ailment in ‘69. Before that I used to play once in a while with Bishop Harrison when he was Monsignor.
Dan: When he was known as McGee. (Laughter).
Bill: Oh, I saw him down to the Broome Open last year, you know, when he was playing with Bob Hope and, ah, what's his name? The Merry Mex, ah, Lee Trevino.
Dan: Lee Trevino, yeah.
Bill: And ah, I followed him around for awhile—they had some fun—you know, they're all, and ah—
Dan: You mentioned you played with Father Harrison now.
Bill: Playing golf, yeah.
Dan: Oh, playing golf, yeah. You know he used to be Assistant Pastor—no, was it? Yeah, he used to be over at St. Mary's and he used to play with Father O'Brien, and it came out in the paper, of course it wouldn't be Father Harrison but he'd be playing under the name of McGee.
Bill: Yeah, but he taught me, he said he played out to Notre Dame—he was on the ball team out there, but he had a chance to go and really try in Minor League if he had a chance to go up, but he was going to do something else, but he used to be around the ballpark up there when I was playing up in Syracuse—old Star park.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: I used to live up on Tipperary Hill when I was in Syracuse.
Dan: Tipperary Hill.
Bill: Yeah.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: Up on, I think it was Hamilton Street—sometimes I forget, rather I stayed with people named Hamilton—it sounds like it was a street.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: Up on Tipperary Hill.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: The green was always on top.
Dan: What was this farm team, this St. Louis farm team called up at Syracuse?
Bill: Stars.
Dan: Stars.
Bill: St. Louis Stars—the Syracuse Stars.
Dan: Syracuse Stars, yeah.
Bill: Shanks Shaughnessey was the manager one year up there and then Barney Shotten was the manager in '27 and he—we had quite a good team. He went to Philadelphia after and managed for a few years—he managed Brooklyn.
Dan: Now who was managing when you won the series—those 3 years?
Bill: Oh, Hornsby was managing them in ‘26.
Dan: That was the farm league.
Bill: No.
Dan: Wasn't that the farm league—when you were down in Texas?
Bill: No, oh, that was Snyder, Frank Snyder was managing the Houston team.
Dan: I see.
Bill: In St. Louis then, in ‘26, Hornsby was the manager.
Dan: I see.
Bill: And in ’30 Gabby Street, and in ’31 Gabby Street, and in ’34 Frankie Frisch.
Dan: Frankie Frisch, uh huh.
Bill: And he was killed a few years ago, coming north when a train came.
Dan: Yes, yes, I read about that.
Bill: Car accident—he was quite a ball player, he was.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: God, he was a good one.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: And Medwick, 2 years ago I think he died.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: Had a heart attack, and he was working with the Cardinals—he was the batting instructor.
Dan: Uh huh.
Bill: Well I think I've covered pretty well, haven't I, ah?
Dan: Oh that's fine, Bill. I'll, if you like, I'll play it back for you.
Bill: OK.
Dan: Now Bill, you mentioned that you, ah, played in the 1st All Star game in 1933.
Bill: Right.
Dan: Now could you name the members of the team?
Bill: No, I don't think so, I—
Dan: The National League team.
Bill: Yeah, I may be able to name most of those fellows, but ah, ah, to go through to name the American League, I don't.
Dan: No, just your own team, your National League All-Stars. You were pitching, right?
Bill: Yeah, and Gabby Street was catcher—I mean this is the starting, because they kept entering.
Dan: Yeah.
Bill: Gabby Street catching, Bill Terry was playing first, Frankie Frisch second—now if I can get the shortstop, ah, skip that for a minute. Pie Traynor was playing third, ah, Chick Hafey, Paul Waner, Mel Ott I think.
Dan: Mel Ott.
Bill: Mhmm, I know they played sometime during the game.
Dan: Yeah, right, but that was the first World Series.
Bill: All-Stars.
Dan: All-Stars, rather, first All-Star game. OK, well thank you very much, Bill.
",,,,"44:13 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with William A. Hallahan",,,,1978-04-25,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Hallahan, William A. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Groton (N.Y.); Baseball players -- Interviews; St. Louis Cardinals (Baseball team); World Series (Baseball); General Aniline & Film Corporation, Division of Ozalid; Little League baseball",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dac5f0fada90b2e755d0c73b1c136734.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bd8eb7c14b07dd204d1c0783075cb6a8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/15f373c00969b3f05bef7f45ca1dc3e9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/368386bc142d0c6a5da43122abaa2dad.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6735806b85e17c2c5f3ba85c9f724d63.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/80e87fc2ad52d6bacdda9f082980ea50.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6ec11e031178ddabaae9ab5e76449401.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce892918312a7e109fafaaaa5bbfc1ae.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e102400ad39b67c87b4a991c1026f4c5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9047ceaccff1c71d1d2f2c9bfa1796d3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5396d2e2177812a712b38255a073c406.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ad7a05025fa114bbb5cc05e7d54ffcb0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/239cc5b9bb260343df8e17d4c547b935.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fc8a2a4ce976d11458aaa2078ae999e0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5aea795a78029fedddda11bea6e2e24b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5b357b8cd8c025c80cb4033997501ea2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/046bffd37d52629ba86aa1ad0283d473.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/93a6b06df5a77162ac939bbdf98e1afc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9d8dd9b47abceaa1a624269b671f9b68.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/af363148ad2b8a025838780985ab23c8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f3642b2e1b439458f7f11838e435db12.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/afac2ea3310b4cc26ba913732f0830da.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 507,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/507,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"44:56 Minutes ; 47:18 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Mrs. Mary Fenson (née Mary Pyluck)",,"Fenson, Mary ; Politylo, Nettie",,audio/mp3,"Fenson, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Farms--Interviews; Johnson City (N.Y.); Pentecost; Beckwith Lumber Co.","Mrs. Fenson continues to talk about her life on a farm in Johnson City, NY and the day a fire destroyed her home and how the Beckwith Lumber Co. assisted in rebuilding. She also discusses the customs of her culture on Pentecost (Troitsa). ",,"Binghamton University Libraries","1978-04-25 ; 1978-06-20","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 21; Recording 22 ",,"Politylo, Nettie","Fenson, Mary",,"Broome County Oral History
Interview with: Mrs. Mary Fenson (née Mary Pyluck)
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Dates of Interviews: 25 April 1978 and 20 June 1978
[Interview #1: 25 April 1978]
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Mrs. Simon Fenson, 2121 Farm to Market Road, RD#2, Johnson City, NY, on Apr. 25, 1978. Mrs. Fenson, will you start telling me about your life and working experiences in the community, starting with your date and place of birth? OK—start.
Mary: What shall I say?
Nettie: Start—where you came from.
Mary: I come from Austria. I was 16 years old. I come to this country 1906—September 28. My father was here. They take me to factory, then I got a job up there—then I work in a cotton mill.
Nettie: When you came from Austria—where did you go first? What city or town did you go first?
Mary: Oh, I come on the town called Crampton, but now they don't call that Crampton—they call it Warwick—but before, they call it Crampton, Rhode Island.
Nettie: What did you do there?
Mary: I go to factory, I make—I work in machine, made thread—they call it spinning.
Nettie: Do you remember how did the job—the procedure of the job?
Mary: My father go and ask the boss, and they don't wanna take me in because I was still very young. I had to wait two months before I was the age of 16, then they took me in the factory to work. I worked on the machine, where they made thread—thread—that's all.
Nettie: How did you make this thread?
Mary: The machine did the work—the machine did the work—
Nettie: Did you have to feed it?
Mary: You have to take one thread and another thread and feed it into the machine—and out of the two twined together makes the one strand of thread. This is called a spinning machine.
Nettie: After you left Rhode Island, did you come here?
Mary: No, jobs were scarce, pretty strict, my husband had a friend in Taunton, Mass. He went there for a visit and they suggested he come here. There is work here. So, we went there—true, he got a job—and I got a job—all was pretty good.
Nettie: Where was this? In Endicott?
Mary: No, no, no—Taunton, Massachusetts. Massachusetts.
Nettie: What did you do in Massachusetts? The same thing?
Mary: Same thing, same thing—just a different company—same thing, same job on the machine. Let's see—and then we stayed there a long time. My husband got a job—was not the greatest job—just holding on—later on he got a job in the silk factory, he was an inspector looking over silk cloth and I was still working. Later, I had an uncle living in Binghamton. My uncle had written me a letter and told me to come to Binghamton—as “Here, we have the EJ factories, lots of people are working here and getting overtime pay. Come here.” We quit our job and came to Binghamton.
Nettie: What did you do? Did you work for EJ, too?
Mary: No, I couldn't work - just my husband worked. I was looking for a job but couldn't find one—because—don't need it. I work in Dunn McCarthy five weeks.
Nettie: Where?
Mary: Dunn McCarthy.
Nettie: What did you do there?
Mary: Oh—when they were wearing shoes with the buckle on the side—I sewed the tongues onto the back. I worked 5 weeks but could not work any longer as our daughter was—let's see, about 6 years old and was about to enter school. We did not find living quarters so my husband bought a house. I had to stay at home—I was at home. We lived in this house—I cannot how long—I guess, from ’17 up to 1920. Then later, we traded the house for a farm.
Nettie: Where's the farm located?
Mary: Right over here.
Nettie: What's this street?
Mary: Oh—just next door!
Nettie: What is your address?
Mary: R.D. #2, Johnson City!
Nettie: OK.
Mary: Yeah, from 1920 we came on this farm, we were poor—hard life—dilapidated farm—ah little by little—my husband was working in the factory—there there wasn't much work so he had to quit—decided we would farm—he didn't know anything about farming and I didn't understand farming, but we were young so we figured we would get along.
Nettie: You would learn.
Mary: Yeah. I was in town occasionally and saw every once in a while, a farmer would come into town with his horse and wagon and bring in the different things to sell. I was thinking, I, too, will try—take the horse and wagon downtown and sell something, also. We owned three cows—so, I made cheese, butter and took it with me. Many customers bought these from me. One time, ah—people bought from me but few paid for it. Times were bad—we were poor—no money coming in from anywhere. Once as I was out delivering butter, cheese—I do not know the name of the street at this time—I was about to deliver some butter to a customer—to one of the Polish ladies—when this man, an insurance man named Bay—I didn't know his first name but last name was Bay, a John Hancock Insurance man—stopped me and asked, “Housewife, how is business?"" (Laughing.) “Business is good—people are buying but nobody is paying anything.”
Nettie: Free.
Mary: Yes, they buy my cheese and butter but make—tell me will pay next week as now I have the electrical bill, all kind of excuses not to pay me. He told me, ""Stish, why do you go and knock on doors to sell your wares? Why don't you go to the Johnson City Public Market?"" Bay, I have never heard of that market—never had. He said, ""Listen, I'll make a map for you."" So he proceeded to take out his little book and on a piece of paper he drew a map with directions to get to the market. He said at the market people come to you, buy your wares and pay cash. I thanked him so next week not to go to my house customers, as I'll not receive any money, anyway.
That night, I was telling my husband—the next week I will not go to my cheese and butter customers as Mr. Bay told me to go to the market—Johnson City Public Market. My husband replied, ""Oh, you are foolish to listen to people—you got good customers—take care of them."" I said, ""What good are they? I never get paid for my labor—that's the business!” (Laughing.) Also, it just happened I was so fortunate to have a large crop of peas, such beautiful peas, that I picked two bushels, took along cheese, butter, etc., and was on my way to the market with my horse and wagon. I had no idea where I was going. I looked over the directions on Mr. Bay's map—up to Broad Street, Johnson City, straight through the tracks until I hit Main Street, Johnson City—there, directions continue—to ask someone for further directions to Johnson City Public Market. I rode, sure, as he instructed, not to Broad Street but Main Street—there I came upon a green light and stopped, not knowing which way to turn. A policeman across the road hollered for me to go on. I waved ""No""—I really could not speak much of English. He came up to me and asked me, ""What is the trouble? Why don't you go on?"" I told him I didn't know where to go. He asked again, ""Where are you going?"" I said, ""Johnson City Market."" He then proceeded to tell me to go straight to the light—turn right—go a quarter block and then you will see the market.
I did as he told me—arrived there—knowing it was the market when I saw the horses and wagons, as at that time we had no trucks or cars. I arrived at the front—seeing all the people—was a bit flustered—not knowing where to park my horse and wagon—as it was, here came Mr. Patterson, manager of market—he said, ""Welcome, welcome new producer!"" I didn't know what to tell him. He said, ""Turn the horse around this way.""
I said, ""I can't, I don't know how.""
He said, ""All right, you sit and I'll turn the horse around."" I got down and waited. After taking care of the horse, he glanced at my wares and said, ""Good! Good! Good!"" Again, he asked, ""Do you know how to sell?""
I said, ""No."" (Laughing.) He was very obliging—says, ""Good.” He took some tags from his pocket—saw my peas and came around with a quart basket—says, ""This basket is 18¢ a basket or 2/35¢.” All right, when I started selling—by Gosh! I couldn't believe the people at my stall—buying my wares—I couldn't keep up with all the customers—I didn't have to have bags as the people paid for my peas and told me to dump my peas into a basket they carried on their arm. I sold everything. The manager approached me and said, ""Come again next week.""
""Good,"" I said, ""I'll be back."" I came back every week—brought anything I had to sell, and everything went and I received cash! I looked around and saw what people were selling to give me ideas. I just couldn't get over it—anything I brought in, it was sold for cash—nothing trust! I raised vegetables—vegetables, very little profit—yeah—too much work and not much good of it. I had vegetables like carrots, onions, beets, etc., on a bench—but being outdoors, they wilted in the sun.
One summer day, a lady of 65 or more, who had a stall nearby came to chat with me. As we were talking, she pointed to my vegetables and said, ""Lady, you had beautiful vegetables there but now they are wilted—people will not buy wilted vegetables.”
I answered, ""What should I do?""
""Forget the vegetables,"" she advised, ""why don't you raise flowers?""
I replied, ""Flowers! Who needs flowers?"" I didn't believe her—she continued telling me that anyone who owned a home and had a small plot of land in back, they always grew vegetables for their own use, but flowers, they have no room to plant. If you sell flowers you will have a good business. I don't know how to go about this new venture. The lady proceeded to tell me that as soon as the snow melts in the Spring and the ground is not too wet—plant some sweet peas and they will grow nicely. I did just that. I wanted to buy flower seeds, my husband laughed and said, ""Foolish lady, who is going to eat your flowers?""
I told him, “I'll try it.” (Laughing.) I spent one dollar on flower seeds. After a short time, I told my friend, “My sweet peas are growing so beautifully, such beautiful flowers, can't get over that. What shall I do with them? I don't know.” I had, at no time see arrangements of flowers. She replied, ""What? Get scissors—cut them and make bouquets."" I thought to myself—how do you make bouquets? The next time I went to the market, I cut some flowers, brought them in to the lady friend and again, asked her to show me how to make bouquets. She was very obliging—showed me the how to, and later said, “Use your head, too,” because if you make a beautiful bouquet you will have many sales, but if you just bunch them they will not be appealing and you will not have a sale. I tried the best I could—so, I continued to plant sweet peas—first a quarter pound, later one pound of seeds—I had flowers—but it was a job—especially the cutting and making bouquets. Now, I started to plant other flowers, even planted the flowers my customers requested. I tried. I noticed a seed catalog—I ordered flower seeds and had such a beautiful assortment of flowers. My customers were pleased—I had asters, zinnias, gladiolas, they didn't like the scent of marigolds. The glads—I had so many—but I sure found success with my flower sales. Many people did not believe me that I could earn more money at the market than the lady who works in a factory. I found if you have the will, strength, you can do very well.
Nettie: Do you have to pay for your booth?
Mary: Oh yes, we had a nice place now, the market was under cover—beautiful, lot of space, clean—we paid $12 a week but it was worth every cent—before that, we had a open market, that was free, then, they paid us $2.00 to come and sell—always reminded us to come back. As I said, after a while, George F. Johnson built a new market—we liked that very much as summer and winter it was a pleasure to be there.
Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, how did they sell meat? Did they come in with chickens, pigs?
Mary: We sold many chickens—we never had less than 100-125 chickens sold on Saturday. We killed and defeathered chickens at home and at the market so dressed them as to customer's choice, whole—cut up—free service.
Nettie: How much were chickens at that time?
Mary: They were 35 cents—nice young fryers (4-5 pounds) at 48 cents a pound.
Nettie: How was the meat business?
Mary: I don't know—some brought in half a cow—cut into pieces—oh, yes, there was a Mr. Baxter, he had all kinds of meats—big place with about four people working there—all people lined up to buy—all sold by noon. Another man, Truman, sold lamb and calf.
Nettie: Did you know to make change? Did you understand how to do that?
Mary: Yes, Mr. Patterson showed me how—asked me where I would put the money and I told him in my pocketbook. He gave me a basket (quart), put a newspaper around—he said, ""Don't put your money in pocketbook—put your money right here, because when people come up to you have chance to give change."" He show me how, then I did like he showed me. He was a very nice man, nice person—he helped me—everything—he said, ""When people buy from you, you have to be very nice to them. Always say, ‘Thank you.’” (Laughing.) He teach me—I don't nothing about anybody. (Laughing.) He said, ""When anybody come to you—they buy from you—be very pleased—when you give change back—say, ‘Thank you—come again!’” That's what I did. But it was a nice place.
Nettie: Any more interesting stories about the market?
Mary: Lots of people come up—they find out market—little by little come up, lots of them. These days they was no cars—1921—they was no cars, everybody come up with team or one horse.
Nettie: How did you get down in the winter? By sleigh?
Mary: No, I just go with the market wagon—that's all—and wintertime, I go once a week.
Nettie: Did you go, yourself or with your husband?
Mary: No, he didn't want to go—I went myself.
Nettie: You're the businesswoman.
Mary: I did, sure! That's the first thing—you know. I say to my man, I say, the next week I go to the market because, I hear Mr. Bay, told me market people pay cash. He said, ""Don't fool yourself, you got steady customers.” Yeah—those steady customers take everything but they got—nobody pay me a nickel. Well, I went like Mr. Bay told me, my man was so mad he no want to put—he no want to hook the horse to wagon. He put harness in—horse was a big one—I was short—I can't put harness—he put harness in—he don't want to hook horse to wagon because he said I should not leave my customers—but after that he don't say nothing—little by little—
Nettie: He saw you were a good businesswoman.
Mary: Yes, he find out I don't do nothing wrong. I know this Bay, he don't want me to go—I sell my peas—and for what I got them—I got the cash—I got $16—see, $16 I never see in years. I know my man, he was worrying—he got horses—they need—horses, when you go on field work—horses need oats—we had no money to buy oats. When I got this money I go home—farmer store and I stop and I ask the farmer store's man, I say, ""Mister, I got one horse but want to buy a little grain for horses, anything I needed—can that not be too heavy for horse to go?""
He said, ""No."" (Laughing). “How much do you want?""
I say I want it, at least two bags—that's 200 horse feed. He said, ""That's not heavy—at all—he can take a lots more."" Then I take it—two bag horse feed, one bag cow feed, and I got myself pork loin, I like that, 12 cents a pound—he sliced for me, this storekeeper, then I pay everything cash and I come home. I got $4 cash—beautiful! Beautiful! When I got home, my man he said, ""What you got in those wagon?""
I said, ""Why don't you look over."" He see, boy, he grabbed the bag—he said have to go on field—the horses don't have nothing to eat. Then afterwards, he don't say nothing to me. You wanna go—go—you wanna—go—
Another thing, at old market there was a man from Owego, who sold all dressed chickens. I decided, I wanted to sell chickens, too. The next week I took with me a crate of live chickens—sixteen chickens in a crate. At the market, people went by, looked, said, ""Nice chickens. Nice chickens,"" but were not buying my chickens—so, one of the following days, it was rainy weather and my husband could not work in the fields, told me he was going with me to the market, as company. He helped me bring out my wares plus the crate of live chickens. I am thinking all the time, I have such beautiful chickens, how can I make that chicken dead? (Laughing.) Nobody is buying my chickens. I am still thinking, thinking, and all of sudden, I got an idea. I looked around and saw my man talking, smoking, smoking—with a couple men. I took a market basket—they don't have that kind these days—and it, I put two roosters and a hen. I tied, covered the chickens so my husband would not see them. As I was leaving, I told my husband to take care of my business, and I'll be back soon. He told me to go—but asked ""Where are you going?""
I told him I'm going to go on Main Street, but I didn't go on Main Street—I went to Mrs. Philipso. I arrived at Mrs. Philipso's and called, ""Hey kuma, put a pot of water on stove."" She then replied, ""Do you want to take a bath?"" (Laughing.)
“No, just get a pot of water ready—I have some chickens here I want defeathered.”
She asked, ""Who will kill the chickens?""
I replied, ""I don't know,"" but we finally agreed that since both of us cannot do it, we asked the neighbor. She was obliging—""Get me the knife—I'll kill them."" Finally the chickens were defeathered and I returned—to the market. I saw my husband as I left him talking with the men—I asked, ""Did you sell anything?""
He replied, “No, no one stopped by."" Now, I put my dressed chickens on the bench—still out in the open market. Before long, a Slovak couple come by and stopped to look at the chickens and asked if they were fresh—I said, ""They are shaking—are warm."" The lady answered, ""My God, they are warm.” Man answered, ""Oh, the sun warmed them."" (Laughing.)
I convinced them my chickens were fresh, so they bought the largest rooster for baking. I was beginning to worry if we’ll sell all the chickens, but as it was, another couple came along, another person came along, so within thirty minutes my dressed chickens were sold. I figured if they could sell dressed chickens inside the market I could sell outside, on the bench. Before long, the man from Owego—who had the dressed chickens—reported her to the manager—saying, “That lady is taking my business away—get rid of her.”
In all fairness, Mr. Patterson replied, ""Harry, you take care of yourself and she will take care of herself.” As time went by, my chicken business grew from twenty to thirty chickens every Saturday, also, kept growing to 120-125 chickens—at holiday time I included ducks, geese—at times we had to buy chickens to keep up. Finally, I had such a business, my husband wanted a picking machine but it cost $360—he figured if someone has one I'll have one—so with pieces of wood, metal, he made one of his own which worked beautifully. The chicken business was a lot of work and a lot of fun—so that was our life going to end—35 years at the market—from beginning to the last.
Nettie: What was the year of the closing of the market?
Mary: 1953. We sold our farm that year, as raising vegetables, chickens, glads were not necessary if I did not have a market to sell them at. When I sold glads—that alone was good money, but instead of selling each flower I made bouquets for $1.00—medium size 50 cents—people bought for cemeteries. I had beautiful flowers that I kept fresh in pails of water—people were standing in line to buy them. My flowers were sold every time but if had a few left, I gave it to people for their church. They were a good profit for me—I remember—year 1939—it was a fantastic year—sold so many chickens—assorted flowers—glads—gladiola sales alone, I made $135—was pretty good. I always kept track of my sales—always sold everything.
Nettie: I must say—you were a good businesswoman.
Mary: Oh yes.
Nettie: How did you learn to be such a terrific businesswoman?
Mary: I don't know! I had neighbors, Bobby, June, they grew many things in their garden. I like planting new things. I planted some new things that my neighbor planted. I don't see why I can't have new plantings even though my neighbor has. They asked me, ""Where do you get all those things?""
I replied, ""Where? In my garden—growing!"" I saw different people asking at June's for rhubarb—I didn't want to invest in seeds, at first, so waited, thinking someone will give me some. One day my husband sent me to Union Center to buy seed because he was going to plant oats. I took my horse and wagon—along the way passed a farm that had a beautiful growth of rhubarb. A lady of the house was passing by—I called to her, ""Hey, Mrs., I see you got very nice rhubarb.""
She answered in Slovak, ""Oh, that thing—throw it out to the devil.""
I then asked, ""Maybe, you could sell me some because I do not have any.""
The lady called her husband to dig out a clump. He did, put it in my wagon and told me to separate the roots, as they will grow thick. I had six plantings from that. Later on, I stopped at another farm—they, too, gave me rhubarb. I, sure, had a lot of rhubarb in my garden—by gosh—I had a lot of rhubarb. Boy! Oh boy! They call it strawberry rhubarb—the pink variety. When I saw the different interesting plants or vegetables—I always wanted to have them, too—I feel if I wanted to take the trouble to plant, take care of it—why not? I had everything! I loved to work—in Europe I remember when I was very young—I worked for a few pennies for this landlord—by gosh!
Nettie: Did you sell jam at the market?
Mary: No, no, no. At the beginning, I sold cookies—sugar cookies.
Nettie: Did you bake them?
Mary: Yes, you never believe it—25 pounds on Friday—I use everything for sugar cookies—they was 20¢ a dozen. (Laughing.) Honest to God—people stand in line—want a cookie—almost all lady in market, they ask me, ""How soon you gonna have the sugar cookie?"" That was lots of fun!
Nettie: Did you make cakes?
Mary: No, just cookies. They was not enough time—because every time our chicks were small—we had the small chicks, that needed attention, you have a little time so you have to work fast—we had the calves, chickens—so we had a lot of work—God knows.
Nettie: Did you sell butter and cheese at the market?
Mary: Oh—that just from in the beginning—because we had only three cows—we didn't have that much milk. Later, little by little we bought more cows—we had milk—the milkman picked it up—the milk—at beginning we didn't have that much—just enough to make cheese and butter. Oh yes, when I had her [daughter Nadine] 20th of May—Friday—I made 12 pounds butter and honest to God—20 pounds cheese—we had enough milk. My husband took it to the market—he sold it all.
Nettie: You made a businessman out of him.
Mary: Oh yeah, funny thing!
Nettie: Do you have any more experiences? You did have many interesting experiences.
Mary: Yeah. (Laughing).
Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, Where did you go to school? Europe? Where did you get married? When you got married you probably went to work.
Mary: When I was in Europe—we didn't have much schooling—my dad always said, ""You'll never get bread to eat by going to school—you have to go out in the fields to work to have bread."" I went to school—very little—they didn't give us a chance to go to school—Polish officials were against us—in attending school.
Nettie: What did you learn?
Mary: I learned Russian and Polish languages—we had to learn both languages. We attended school 8 to 11 in the morning. Later, work in the fields—that's all.
[Interview #2: 20 June 1978]
Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, will you continue telling me more about your life on the farm? Mrs. Fenson, let's go back to the flowers you used to raise on the farm—will you tell me more about it?
Mary: Well, I raised just what I could sell at the market—see—various vegetables and anything that the customers requested, she accommodated them, and earned a good income.
Nettie: You can go on. Did you ever have trouble with the disease that the gladiola had?
Mary: No, never, because before you plant gladiolas you should soak them in the water at least 36 hours and then plant it.
Nettie: Oh! first soak them—
Mary: Oh, yeah—now people don't do that, but before, yes—uh—forgot what you put in the water—can't remember—-if gladiolas get the trips it is very hard to get rid of—just like if a person gets very ill and it is, is hard to get healed—from the trips—
Nettie: Well, Mrs. Fenson, when you were on the farm, you told us the last time about how you used to drive the team of horses—did you ever learn to drive a car?
Mary: No.
Nettie: Did you ever try to learn? Did your husband teach you?
Mary: Well, from the beginning we owned a truck. My husband said, ""Why, the truck—let's buy a car.” He bought a car—Pontiac—nice car—brand new one. He told me, ""Right away I will teach you and then you can drive a car.” All right, good—we bought a car—drove home to the farm and in the driveway—side of house—had to drive on the upgrade. He said, “Sit on this side, I'll tell you how to back out of the driveway.” I drove several feet—stalled the car—he said, “Oh! Oh! That’s all! You'll never learn to drive because if you gonna drive the car you gonna kill yourself—you gonna kill lots of people, you no good.” (Laughing.)
I was mad but they don't do no good—that's about how much I learned to drive the car. I asked, ""All these years I used to go with the horses, now I can't go with the car.” He said, ""You do not have any nerve to drive the car.” After that I just didn't want to learn anymore—there! As for being retired—we were not really retired that we wanted to—no—it was because my husband was very ill. What to do? Could not work in the fields or garden, noplace, because he was in the hospital most of the time. I got us thinking—to sell the cows and just live like that on the farm. So, we were going to live on the farm with nothing to raise, so we decided to sell the farm. We sold the farm, which is located across the road, and this land on which this house is built was empty—we decided to build a home on this land about the year 1953. Now we thought we could live fairly well, as they say, our business was in order, we saved a little money, no debts and just live—but then my husband started ailing—really ailing—and then just left me—passed away. Yes—it’s terrible—suffering—working—and then— [pause]
He—if only he didn't smoke that much. He was a wonderful man—he wasn't a gambler, no drunk, no woman chaser, like they say, he was a wonderful man—he worked—did everything—did not have to have someone doing his work—just smoked endlessly since he was a young man. That's why he got emphysema and heart trouble, left everything. [Pause]. We also had a beautiful home in Florida—I thought that weather would agree with him—oh—but that did not help him.
Nettie: Is the cigarettes that really got him?
Mary: The cigarettes did that to him—the worst thing during the end, he had in the bedroom by the bed an oxygen tank—he had to inhale the oxygen in order to breathe—it was very difficult for me because he had to lie in bed and I had to apply this mask on him and see that he inhaled the oxygen, otherwise he would choke. That was really awful—God be with him—he just could not get well.
Nettie: That's bad—cigarette smoking. I don't smoke—but many do and I don't think it is good for them.
Mary: I have a daughter, Olga, I don't know if you knew her, she smokes constantly. I've talked, pleaded with her—nothing helps—just keeps on smoking—that's all.
Nettie: Some people are like that.
Mary: Yes, some men turn to smoking, some to drinking—you could live without this—live like God intended them to—but people don't look at it in that way.
Nettie: I think if people want to indulge they can do so moderately.
Mary: Oh—more I know—third of July will be 57 years that we came on this land—57 years.
Nettie: Here on the farm?
Mary: Yes—57 years. Here—the road—it was such a narrow road which was difficult to have two cars drive on it at one time—dirt road—no electricity—no, no, it was difficult living here. (Laughing.) We had kerosene lamps—
Nettie: Where did you have the kerosene lamps?
Mary: In the house. You put a kerosene lamp on a table and just sat around—there was no television, no radio, no nothing when we bought the farm, but we lived and everything was all right.
Nettie: What did you do for water?
Mary: Oh, we had a well near our house. We had to go out and pump our water when we needed water—see, in the house we did not have running water, only a well which you had outdoors to pump and get water. If I was in need of hot water, I had the stove with which I burned wood—that's how we got along.
Nettie: That is a big change for people nowadays—
Mary: Oh yes—nowadays—it is just like a day and night. People have all the conveniences—like washing machines, etc.—machines for everything—for people this is the life. I used a washboard. Nowadays, many people with conveniences tend to get lazy.
Nettie: They don't want to work! No!
Mary: I have an example. Look at my daughter, next door—she has a washing machine and dryer. Why does she have to pay for electricity for a dryer? Why, we have the beautiful outdoors where in no time her clothes can be dry and smell ever so sweetly—but no, she puts her clothes in one machine then another, that— (Laughing.)
Nettie: This is an age of progress.
Mary: Oh yeah, I didn't even have a decent electric iron to iron clothes—I only had a iron that you put on the stove, heated it and then did your, your ironing—heating constantly.
Nettie: I had forgotten—how did you iron in those days?
Mary: You took this iron—heated it—and with clamps you picked up the iron—then you iron.
Nettie: This was a continuous heating?
Mary: Yes, constantly. I had three of them heating—when one was cooled, you returned to the stove and took next one—you picked them up with a clamp that fitted on these irons. That's the way I ironed, but, you got used to it—that's all.
Nettie: That's right.
Mary: People have to get used to everything—if a necessity arises—people get used to it.
Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, did you ever do needlework?
Mary: I did cross-stitch—oh, how I loved to do that. That is how I spoiled my eyesight—I always loved to do the cross-stitch.
Nettie: What did you do?
Mary: Oh, everything! Shirts—I worked cross-stitch on shirts which they used on theater plays on Baxter Street (St. Mary's Russian Orthodox Church). I really loved that type of needlework!
Nettie: Yeah.
Mary: Oh, needlepoint I didn't do that—crochet—I didn't do that. I didn't have enough nerve—you work, work, and nothing is appealing—but embroider-work, you have flowers, birds, etc.
Nettie: Did you ever knit?
Mary: No, cross-stitch is all I did—that was my life!
Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, you must’ve been a pretty good baker. Did you make breads, cakes?
Mary: Nothing much—I only made sugar cookies—cookies.
Nettie: Oh yes.
Mary: Other times—Friday was my day to bake cookies—I sold them on the market at 20¢ a dozen.
Nettie: What kind?
Mary: White sugar cookie—some people asked for molasses cookies, but it would not pay. I would make sugar cookies with lemon flavor—people sure loved them. I remember for a long time many elderly people would stop and ask, ""When are you going to make cookies?"" I told them, no more cookies—I had too much work in the fields. Later, we raised chickens, we had our own incubator for the chickens. When we came on the farm there was only one house and barn, no other buildings. Now we had a big new hen house, brooding house, raised own chickens, 3,000 of them, 14 cows. We had enough work—we had to milk cows—
Nettie: Didn't you have any machinery?
Mary: We had machinery at the time but did not have money to buy the machinery! All right—after a time we saved some money, were doing better. My husband said, ""Now, let's buy a new machine."" The machine cost $350—that is for a milking machine. It was wonderful—didn't need to milk by hand. All right, then came the harvest time—who is going to help you with the hay? My husband is older—cannot work—I could not do it—children scattered to many cities. So, again, who is going to work? At that point my husband decided, ""Let us sell the farm."" So, that is our retirement. There was no other way—before that, we were younger, able to work the fields or garden, milk cows, tend to the chickens, but after a person gets older, loses strength—
Nettie: You should have had some help, right?
Mary: My son-in-law worked in EJ until 4pm—later during daylight he would help my husband put the hay in bales, put it in the barn, and even on Saturdays and Sundays, he helped us. That's true, you can't find people to work on the farm, as industry is not too far off. They'd rather work in industry and not work such long hours on the farm. As I said, we finally sold the farm. My husband just did not want to along with the farm as, although we did get a nice sum for the farm, he started ailing. It was a constant procedure, to the hospital, home, operations, back and forth—back and forth. Must be that was our fate! It was bad, too—one of our daughters, Olga, had an operation—then the other daughter, Nadya, had an operation—they had appendicitis. Olga did not cost us too much but Nadya's operation cost quite a bit more as she had a rupture. She was in the hospital much longer.
Nettie: Nadya—is that Nadine? I am Nadya, also.
Mary: Yeah, that is Nadine. That is a beautiful name. When Nadya got ill they took her to the hospital. The doctor did not operate, at first, but told my husband it will cost you $500. We didn't have $500, so my husband went up to see his brother, Steve, for a loan. We paid the bill, doctor’s bill, at Lourdes Hospital. It was very hard for us to pay the hospital bill but the Sister of Lourdes Hospital were very sympathetic and made a deal. They told us, “You live on the farm, so try and pay us with produce, poultry and eggs—anything you can spare—in this way you can take care of the bill.”
Nettie: This was a good deal because the hospital needs produce, chicken and eggs.
Mary: Oh yeah, they always took 30 dozen eggs, 1 dozen cut up dressed chickens. They appreciated all this, as this is what they had to go out to buy, anyway.
Nettie: This is a good example for this kind of barter now, since prices and taxes are so high.
Mary: Oh no, not now—everything is different now—as day and night. People have changed—most are mixed up. (Sigh). Life has passed with all tribulations—as I said—times were tough, first one daughter had an operation, then the second daughter had an operation, and in 1940—all of sudden our house burned. Yeah, I was working with my daughter Olga in the garden and my husband was in the henhouse. I had not been in the garden very long when my husband yelled, ""Ma, the house is on fire."" Our garden was quite a ways from the house, therefore we did not see anything. Immediately, Olga ran up to the house and yelled, ""Come on, come on!"" I finally hurried to the house—by gosh, after we looked around the house was burning blaze. This was about 2pm.
Nettie: What happened?
Mary: Short circuit—what we had, everything perished. As for insurance, all we got was $500—because they had no fire stations, therefore we could not get more money.
Nettie: What could a person do with so little as $500?
Mary: That is right. We wanted to build a new home—but, what to do for money? Mr. Beckwith of Beckwith Lumber Company was also a person who was sympathetic to our needs. When he heard of our bad luck he came to see us. He asked, ""Simon, do you have enough insurance?"" My husband replied, ""I hate to tell you we have only $500.""
He said, “You can't too much with $500, but don't worry—find yourself a carpenter, have him measure how much lumber, etc., is needed and notify me. Everything will be taken care of.” That is exactly what we did, and the next day a truck from the lumber company arrived with the lumber. (Laughing.) We bought our lumber from Beckwith's during the years, whether to build a barn, henhouse, and paid our bills well. We eventually built our new home and paid our bills—somehow God sent us strength and business was good at the market—whatever we brought, we sold everything! It was just good luck—although everything was perished in the fire, but God gave us strength to work so that we came out—all right.
Nettie: I think Mr. Beckwith was a good man to do that for you. You could see that he had a lot of respect for you—knowing you will pay your bills.
Mary: Yeah, Yeah.
Nettie: Nowadays situations are different. You would not find anyone who would trust a person like that.
Mary: That is right, if you live a honest, clean life, people don't forget.
Nettie: That is true, that is true.
Mary: It will be 57 years that we lived on the farm—on July 3 or 4 was Sunday and people celebrated Monday. It was so cold—
Nettie: 57 years ago?
Mary: By gosh, when we moved up on the farm from Binghamton we had no lights, we could not see anything. I couldn't see my husband and he couldn't see me. (Laughing.) Here we wanted to connect our stove, but since we couldn't see what to do we decided to do just—wait until morning. The next morning we connected the stove, put the coal on the wood, and were warmed up—it was so cold that whole week that we thought we would have a frost—July 1920. Even with all of life's tribulations—if I had to relive my life, honest to God, I would relive it the same.
Nettie: You would relive your life the same?
Mary: I would relive it. If God told me to relive what I had been through, I would! Only give me back my strength—I just love to work in the fields, in the garden—that was my love, the outside, to work. I'm not like the ladies who get together for a coffee klatch or the ones who get together for bridge—theirs is a different life—I loved the outdoors. Sometimes, during the winter weather the snow was so high, you could not see very far, my husband would start off for the woods and say, ""Do you think you could leave the children alone and go to the woods and help me?"" (Laughing.) We had about 35 acres of woods—you could get a lot of lumber out of them—but some of the trees needed a cross-cut saw, so I would go with my husband and help to hold the saw as he cut the lumber.
Nettie: Did you go out in the bitter weather?
Mary: Sure, I'd put on boots and go in the deep snows. When you are out in the snow you don't realize you are cold—because you are working. When times are tough you get used to do everything.
Nettie: I think when you are in the woods or working in the garden it gives you such a peace of mind—such a peaceful atmosphere!
Mary: Yeah, while my husband is cutting the wood I'm piling the wood—helping him in any way I could. We worked all the time—we had enough of wood for our home use. We had a country schoolhouse down the way to which we sold several cords of wood, too.
Nettie: Do you still have it?
Mary: No, no, we sold it with the farm—that's all. We sold everything with the farm but two acres—there it lies dormant—I can't work it anymore—the land is idle—when I was able to work I had everything, raspberries, vegetables, etc.—even flowers. Here we get a lot of traffic passing our home, we were able to sell all of our produce and flowers. Now, I look at the idle land—I can't walk—
Nettie: It must make you feel bad, doesn't it?
Mary: It hurts. It pains me to know you have the land but I can't walk, I can't even bend—it's right there—you can't get to it—I see it—that's all. I've been to many doctors—upper body is fine but my feet and knees, arthritis. I have X-ray after X-ray, but it does no good because all they tell me is I have bad arthritis. I know all of this and it is frustrating. You could have all the money in the world, but, if you don't have good health—it is not good.
My husband tried to see that all of our debts were paid, we saved a little money, and since our children have grown up, married and moved to distant places, we would just enjoy life together—but look what happened. He became ill—very ill—left this world—that's all—only I am here—left alone on this earth—that's all. (Laughing.) We came to live on this road 57 years ago—this road leading to the airport. No one is left—they have all passed away—only I am still living. Oh no, there is one man, a Slovak man who lives in a small white house near the school. His name is Valenta.
Nettie: We were talking about the holy day called Troitsa. Do you recall how they celebrated that day?
Mary: Our church parishioners go to the cemetery on that day to have services, memorial services for the deceased of the parish. Many of the people put branches on the graves to commemorate the day.
Nettie: Do you remember how they used to decorate the homes on that day?
Mary: Yes, Yes everybody had branches of trees on the doors, windows on that holy day, Troitsa. They also strewed large blades of greens—someone told us it is called cattails—on the floors. In Europe they used to bring large trees and dig them in the ground around the doors—greens everywhere—every niche in the house, roof, etc.
Nettie: What was the reason for that?
Mary: It was a such a holy day that they all did that and believed in it, I don't understand. (Day of the Holy Spirit). Also, on that day we used to go to the marshes to pick the cattails which grow there. This Troitsa (Pentecost) is a big holy day and I also, remember when I was a young girl in Europe we used to make bouquets of cattails, greens and May flowers. All girls of my age, we took the bouquets to church—filing in twos we would walk down the aisle and have our bouquets blessed by the priest. Also, another custom was celebrated 3-4 weeks later on another holy day was, we made wreaths and also took took them to church to be blessed and then, about a week later, about of August 19 we took fruits of all sorts to be blessed—thanking God for a good harvest of fruits.
Nettie: What place did you come from, Mrs. Fenson?
Mary: Austria.
Nettie: Austria—that must have been on the border of Poland or Russia.
Mary: Yes, on the border of—uh—Wolynskia Gubernia [Volhynian Governorate].
Nettie: Was the name of the town?
Mary: Selo Wisosko was what it was called—we call it Brody.
Nettie: My father was from that city.
Mary: You mean it?! (Laughing.) The Wolynski boys used to come to our town, just to our neighboring selo [town]. They said they liked when the Wolynski boys came because they were nice gentlemen who brought candy, cigarettes, tobacco, and even brought liquor. (Laughing.) The Austrian girls made pirohys, so there was always a party.
Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, thank you very much for telling me more of your life and experiences—I really appreciate it.
Mary: You are welcome.
",,,,"44:56 Minutes ; 47:18 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Mrs. Mary Fenson (née Mary Pyluck)",,,,"1978-04-25 ; 1978-06-20",,"Broome County Oral History Project","Fenson, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Farms--Interviews; Johnson City (N.Y.); Pentecost; Beckwith Lumber Co.",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3ebb661fc4858b3bb5a02b86fdda7c3a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cdf8b3c1a0f8af3b407d40d0bd41f4b2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/890a971e88d903615e079795ceb6d2c7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5366c1895f43f7d8355afcdff91593d4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2de1b6a150b0f68b6334d90b2193a8f2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/227afebcc71272161d2105efd12b5951.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cb2a4e69d2771e42a047afa1f3310019.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9bc32a106b1d92f36c764abb2f0dad7a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c993e74317cca0ce31dd32ecb19246a9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a1226a70d8936e1fa9c476b484a68a16.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/005ba5ac1f7f1843d3ba17143033bb3a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e1af534f4756c7eda590ce59288a29aa.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3deecea2db8cf64888e74eba0c0c1d27.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a57c351866e90710c3495cd6e33a61b3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/37932b9d3623479ce8924d16dd16da0f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9b944b428daa14f8caaf8e5728b36948.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ab4bd980ab2ef4097453a89d4b572c8d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ad2464635b0316b62d3f53698f3b0053.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/32a29d23bb56a1fd2d0c90d1cc29f76a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e73ecc1765b7034bc0850fbffabd254e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/900748c15a3c7e86c79f3035203368b0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/945d9ab1ab737ff30176419b4e10994a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/62002856ed82a130a2059f6db8d91444.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2069e5c923b12c213513a88f828052b2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/79444d7a560033fafd20dc234665ecce.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9d96cf35d87d2e8a1f539545f71a0ebb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d3a303e094748ae998ce3468e84c76d0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c1af554a764c334108ae6a6b36fb3d19.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0fff706f9314b9580563dcd86ce6474a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4f8cc2f1cc42b31b6b5b79bc3e10f5cb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fff1b0101ad1fba53d20c8ee0e1fd81f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a689bb391bf936dd4afde8a27b8fd8c0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a0df72e3d031259c187b14b0490844c5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6bed9e7fc82773d942d51c05c96fd243.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/17da6be7d53691b94284f84758e1b28e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a5b9769382903ff1ecf12bfdd7f37697.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/125d2f63c5ca7f7ad10078cb2c6ba970.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/916b5e138a75e9280c216e1ebc11484e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/09c310c60bf4f47e813eb788890aecb1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/241b7e46e72f7f55faef4dca1df4e291.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b26047b22823a54458bb1d6822b4ed5b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/63fdd2f8a671739827e3ab44e88fa38f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/533e936ec44dafd21b09d13caa386527.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a7201f6b361fa6b6b83e42e04b9ffde8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2a79e16ed09e351c3043791780d27ca2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bf1685e08e9ebb88623ebf3be7117898.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/49695b79e0b13c0fb2f56649391f2757.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d7e23eac2226f919b4c8e31e634b4fe5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c8febd90bebfee250f8e5f1eda422b22.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/266b1b29292dcad1e18f74a4d13deac7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9f137608dcbd0d06af4241fd28e1b453.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e0f3bbaf9d31844f32c3660c5e22b6f5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5a7ca79f6c28232519f43ea9ff3a60ea.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fbba950c6bb0ca2b022b79349df76a43.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 542,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/542,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"32:14 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Leroy Elliott (Slam) Stewart ",,"Stewart, Leroy Elliott (Slam) ; O'Neil, Dan",,"audio/mp3 ","Stewart, Leroy Elliott (Slam) -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Englewood (N.J.); Boston Conservatory; Musicians -- Interviews; Goodman, Benny; Benny Goodman Sextet; Slam Stewart Trio; Garner, Earl; Tatum, Art; Gaillard, Slim; State University of New York at Binghamton; Yale University","Leroy Elliott (Slam) Stewart, born in Englewood, NJ, describes his young life and education. He studied the bass violin in high school and after graduation attended the Boston Conservatory of Music. He details his professional career, teaming up with Slim Gaillard, Art Tatum, and later Earl Garner to become ""the Slam Stewart Trio."" He went on to join the Benny Goodman Sextet, traveling all over the world, developing a distinct style of playing and eventually publishing a book, The Techniques of Bass. He speaks about his big-hit composition ""Flat Foot Floogie,"" which received a gold record and was buried in a time capsule at the World's Fair in New York in 1939. He also describes his numerous recordings and his work in film. He mentions his fellowships with SUNY Binghamton and Yale University.",,"Binghamton University Libraries ","1978-04-26 ","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 58 ",,"O'Neil, Dan ","Stewart, Leroy Elliott (Slam) ",,,,,,"32:14 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Leroy Elliott (Slam) Stewart",,,,"1978-04-26 ",,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Stewart, Leroy Elliott (Slam) -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Englewood (N.J.); Boston Conservatory; Musicians -- Interviews; Goodman, Benny; Benny Goodman Sextet; Slam Stewart Trio; Garner, Earl; Tatum, Art; Gaillard, Slim; State University of New York at Binghamton; Yale University","2016-03-27 ",,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6e6f33bdc43f2cbab131a77825d92ce9.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9fc4d90032249b3a6e19a7ba20318325.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6e872e3c56af4b90789ead6fc1844ebb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1974074c5d3d14ea64268906104b81d7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f87eb92c0eed327b4edad1e2765c532f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/12cbeeef8956181aff22cc194747fbc6.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/642bb28292ecd130b322b890ed7c7291.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/42deca09ab0477b084b48724cfc7be1e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/893b09d6b0183c2042171b6d05ad53a4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/14c3cf42c9008211d40ca536370fc49b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/53d6c40d3c69fdb2a22ef09e9efa7cab.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1cd1d151eef987cd4c7ee0e452ff43ef.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3252d8ce1761fd0def6fb5788c8f79b1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a5cc80640f7539bed9c83b8c15ecfce1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/58f80ebe5acec5471050d7dc77065d66.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a5b28001b03ae5c64b394124e7fbe9ab.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c323103e3774abdd1038a72b41b4251c.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,1 536,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/536,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"33:49 Minutes ; 17:02 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dr. Clealand A. Sargent ",,"Sargent, Clealand A. ; O'Neil, Dan",,"audio/mp3 ","Sargent, Clealand A. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Richford (Vt.); University of Vermont; Orwell (Vt.); Physicians -- Interviews; Health officers -- Interviews; Syracuse (N.Y.); Food adulteration and inspection; Vaccination ","Dr. Clealand A. Sargent speaks about his upbringing in Richford, Vermont, premedical and medical education at the University of Vermont, and his private practice in Orwell, Vermont and why he had to give it up. He discusses entering the public health field, relating his experiences with different diseases and control programs in states in which he was a health officer. He also describes taking advanced courses at Johns Hopkins Medical School and teaching classes at various New York universities, and notes the differences in medical practices from the start of his career to the current day. He discusses his position and experiences as the Health Commissioner in Syracuse, NY. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-04-26,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 52A ; Recording 52B ",,"O'Neil, Dan ","Sargent, Clealand A. ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Dr. Clealand A. Sargent
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 26 April 1978
Dan: Doctor would you give me ah your life and experiences, working experiences in the community, starting back to when you were born and where you were born?
Dr. Sargent: Well I was born in Richford, Vermont. R-I-C-H-F-O-R-D, Vermont—it's right on the Canadian border. My father was took before the Customs, that's how we happened to be there. I graduated from Richford High School in 1912, June 1912 and entered the University of Vermont that fall in 1912 and I graduated in Medicine there in June, yeah in June 1918. Served my internship at the Mary Fletcher Hospital in Burlington, and ah that was during the War, I came—then I started in private practice at Orwell, Vermont. Orwell, Vermont, which is on Lake Champlain. They asked the college to send a physician there because they had lost two, so I went there and had 5 towns to cover in the practice, practice of medicine and ah I certainly enjoyed it and expected to stay there but in December in 1923, I had pneumonia and it was a very bad case with many complications and eventually from December 11 to April, I didn't do anything and then discovered I had pulmonary tuberculosis so I didn't—I had to quit private practice entirely. I received a fellowship with the Rockefeller Foundation. Now briefly, the Rockefeller Foundation was started in 1919. John D. Rockefeller gave 200 million dollars for public health service from the advice of his minister. He read the Bible and said the next time he came to Heaven—what did I do, so he told him just start out—do good with your money and that's your home. So he established the Rockefeller Foundation with 200 million dollars ah and also with that they named, they established a training station for physicians to go into preventive medicine. They built a medical school in Peking, China—they built the finest Medical College in University of Chicago and ah this fellowship I started on my birthday, January 13, 1925. I started as a fellow of the Rockefeller Foundation in Andalusia, Alabama ah my first I was there under training by men who had, doctors who had worked various stations throughout the world from the very beginning—in fact, in fact they had the United States. My first experience was with the control of malaria. For a boy born in Vermont, we didn't see very much malaria. I, we were thoroughly trained by men who very well experienced it. Ah as an illustration we started out in the morning - we were given a dose of Atabrine then we were given a thing to put on our wrist like a wristwatch but it had no bottom to it. You were supposed to catch mosquitoes—crawl under houses and what not, get mosquitos and put them under here (pointing to wristwatch) have ‘em eat.
Dan: Incubate?
Dr. Sargent: Feed on your, feed on your skin to keep them alive until you get back to the laboratory because they had to determine what type of infection they had and ah after malaria experience, I was taught to control the hookworms disease and hookworm disease starts by a worm that burrows through the soles of the feet goes up into the bloodstream coughed up and swallowed and attaches itself to the intestinal tract—causes slow hemorrhage. We have taken, while I was there, we as a team—a nurse, a doctor, a nurse and a clerk and go in this school and we got feet for examination and ah if found hookworms, got permission to advance and treat these children and we have taken away as many as 2000 hookworms from one individual.
Dan: Is that right?
Dr. Sargent: And it is a very serious affair. Well from that, the State passed, they assigned somebody to help establish school health programs in the northern part of the State of Alabama. I was sent up there with a very well trained public health nurse—Rockefeller Foundation and then there was an outbreak of diphtheria at Muscle Shoals and I was sent up to work at Florence, Tuscumbia, Columbia, Sheffield, Ford City in control of diphtheria and while I was there we let the water through the flues to start with—the electric power for the State of Alabama—it was very interesting work there. Well ah we did some roundworm control later and then I was assigned to the City of Montgomery, Alabama diphtheria control and while I was doing that, there was an outbreak of smallpox at Columbus, Ohio and I was sent to Oberlin to establish a control program for the outbreak of this smallpox and we were there about 6 weeks because after we vaccinated several thousand people ah against smallpox and things bought under control, they asked me to stay and help the Health Officer with diphtheria control program. Well being nice about it—children against diphtheria and then they asked me to go to the State of—well they gave me a choice of either going to to Panama or to West Virginia—black lung disease area or Springfield, Ohio or to the State of Delaware and in checking the various areas I chose Delaware because they had several serious and interesting health problems—one of the most interesting was infant mortality. Nearly, at that time, nearly a fourth of all the babies died before they got to be a year old and when we—course the first thing to do when we got there was to study the situation and find out why this occurred and we found that outside of Wilmington, 90% of the babies were delivered by illiterate midwives. Most of them could not read or write. They were either colored or from the southern borough, whatnot. Well after we made our study and got the information we needed, we went to the State Legislature and asked for authority to establish a code and ah they gave us that authority and we examined and tested all the midwives and as a result, we eliminated about 50% of it. They couldn’t read nor write and every midwife was under the direction of one of our public health nurse—she had to report to us when she was engaged on a case. The public health nurse followed the case until the delivery and we brought the infant mortality down to 20-25 per thousand we brought it down to 20 but while we were doing this, the State Health Commissioner asked me if I would do something about diphtheria control because they had it typed over 400 for 1000 population—so we set up clinics—I have a picture of one of them right there where I was working (points to photo) Wilmington, Delaware and we immunized 80,000 against diphtheria—practically eliminated it. Then they had a bad typhoid situation and we started in on a sanitation program—building pit privies and whatnot—sanitarians to control typhoid. Well it was all very interesting ah but I had an opportunity then to go to Johns Hopkins with the Rockefeller Foundation and take some courses in public health that was the school of hygiene and I have two Diplomas from Hopkins besides one I have from the University of Vermont. Well then I, after leaving, got a ride into New York State and I didn't know it at the time but Commissioner Moses of the Parks—State Park Commission was working with Canada to establish the seaway, St. Lawrence Seaway and I had charge of syphilis control along Erie, Lake Erie from Canada to Pennsylvania. Had headquarters in Buffalo and ah it was the most interesting experience. We eventually had about 70,000 blood tests which were recorded by Russel Soundex. We worked at all the hospitals—blood donations and things like that. I worked at Erie County penitentiary which was as large as most State prisons—worked with the Doctor there with control among the prisoners. Then and I also
worked at Attica prison every Wednesday—Erie county every Tuesday—only had a day but Wednesday. Attica was most interesting because ah at that time the United States Public Health service had a representative in 150 different foreign cities and if we found a ah sailor or another person there from jail who had syphilis and could name the prostitute or contact in any city of the world, we would notify the State Health Department who would notify the Public Health Service who would notify his representative and we found active cases a far away as Hong Kong.
Dan: Is that right?
Dr. Sargent: Then ah—I can't remember what happened then, I ah, Oh there's a series of disease known as titseal. They're caused by a bug that burrows in the skin and ah causes a disease like Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. Well there’s a disease known as ""tutsi magutsi"" which is a titular disease imported from Japan and it appeared on Long Island and ah I was taken out of, well we've been about 5 years in the census control program and we had clinics well established so on and so forth. I thought my assistant could carry on so they put me down on Long Island and we hired hunters to kill rabbits so we could get the ticks out of the ears of the rabbits and we hired donkeys to roam the countryside, then we catch the donkeys at night and get the, get somebody to get the ticks out of the donkey's ears to bring to our laboratory.
Dan: That was the source of the disease?
Dr. Sargent: To determine what kind of ticks we had.
Dan: I see.
Dr. Sargent: There's different kind of diseases caused by various ticks. Well, while I was there ah the man who, the Doctor who had charge of the State Regional office in New York City retired and they asked me to take it over—the State—that’s how I came to being employed by the State of New York and I had supervision over all of Westchester County and all of Long Island and also a $400,000. The State paid New York City for its child health clinics—we had to check that to see if it was spent properly. Well then I got, I got some requests for training assignments and the State gave me permission to take and it was extreme interesting because I think I learned more than I gave my students. I, because on Wednesday nights I went to University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, gave a 2 hour lecture every Wednesday night and many of the students were from foreign countries and they had a lot of experience—I had run into that at Hopkins so that I was made aware of some of the problems of foreign countries. Well then on Thursday mornings I gave a 2 hour lecture at New York University Medical School out there. Thursday evenings I gave a 2 hour lecture at the school of Administration and that was interesting at Washington Square. Then Friday morning I gave a 2 hour lecture for University of Columbia and I had my area covered—everything from Montauk Point top of Westchester County and it was farther from Montauk to my office than on up to Albany, so I had all city driving—I lived in Ossining and commuted 6 days a week in the worst traffic in the world. 9 o'clock in the morning to 5 o'clock at night.
Dan: Gee.
Dr. Sargent: And ah I thoroughly enjoyed it but then I got tripped up—I got a coronary.
an: Uh huh—what year was this Doctor?
Dr. Sargent: That was in 1921 and ah I didn't work from August until April at all ‘cause I had other complications along with other complications and when I had pneumonia, I got collapse of the lower lobe of my right lung and this is tuberculosis—so everything stacked up against me. So the State assigned me, after I could get back to work, they assigned me to the City of Syracuse. First as District Officer which included 5 of the counties upstate. Simply—supervision over the work of the local health officer. Well then the Mayor of the City of Syracuse asked me to take over the job as Commissioner of Health of Syracuse—I didn't want any part of it and
said I wouldn't take it.
Dan: A little too strenuous?
Dr. Sargent: Pardon?
Dan: A little too strenuous?
Dr. Sargent: No—too much politics.
Dan: Too much politics. (laughter).
Dr. Sargent: And ah I said I’d have no part of it at all. When I left his office—came out on television that (I have a hiatal when I talk too much—it chokes me) ah it came out on television that I was going to be the next Health Commissioner and ah I said I didn't want it—so I called the Mayor said, ""I'll do it as long as I'm in it because my son is in college; when he gets through, he and I are going to run our apple orchard up in Vermont and I'll do it until he gets straightened around,"" because I thought I’d last just about that long. He's got some real problems and I wasn't going to stand for it.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Sargent: Now somebody watching it—straighten out some of their problems. Well I took the thing over and found out that first of all—well I wrote to the census bureau and Syracuse has 32 census tracts and in my work you have to know conditions before you can have any programs or do anything. Well I had heard rumors—I knew roughly what the situation was but I wanted facts. So I wrote the Census Bureau and I got the last 5 census figures for the 32 census tracts and asked to name the population as of that date. Then we figured the various for date mortality rates by census tracts and we centered all of our working 10 census tract 5 all downtown—all bunched by downtown and ah first thing which we did was start a housing program which had not been done in this State except in the middle of New York City. I went to Washington and discussed it with them and they assigned a man by the name of Traboney, who had a lot of experience in that field and he came to Syracuse and established a school in the health department to teach sanitary units how to do good building inspections—home inspections and of course we trained our own inspectors—we had several men from other cities come there so we did quite a bit in housing and then they—we got some trouble with food outbreaks, which we didn't like at all and we traced it largely to a salmonella infection from poultry. Then we went at the poultry business ah after the poultry business and ah as a result we were the only place in the State which barred New York dressed poultry and New York dressed poultry in those days all they did was kill the bird and pick the feathers off. Sold it to you with the intestines and everything in. Well that was where we were getting in trouble, so we stopped the sales of New York dressed poultry and then salmonella stopped ah but ah we then, they had a tuberculosis case funding program in which each year they x-rayed all employees of various factories over and over again year after year and it cost about $4500 to find a case of tuberculosis that way—so we went into the tuberculosis problem and we studied very carefully by census tracts, by age groups, by occupation and we found that the bulk of our cases were in the middle age group among food handlers and bartenders—so we stopped examining the factories—we required all food handlers to have chest x-rayed at our expense every year and we, our case load then was quite heavy to find new cases cost us less than $500 against $4500 other way. We also x-rayed all the people once a month at the Onondaga Penitentiary because they had drifters from everywhere. When we found a case that didn't belong to us we notified their Health Officer and we worked our local jail, x-rayed people down there for the same reason. We picked up people we had and gotten away from us and weren't under treatment—so we had intensive tuberculosis control program and housing program. Then we went into air pollution control and again working with Washington, set up an air pollution control program—I think we were the first in the State outside of New York City that was doing that and ah I tried to get rid of meat inspection because they weren't inspecting meat for anything—that we'd be infected by—I couldn't, there's too much influence through the meat people I couldn't—there's some big ones up there.
Dan: This is all in Syracuse now?
Dr. Sargent: Yeah and ah there's an interesting thing—I don't want to take your time though.
Dan: No, you're not taking my—I've got all the time in the world so you go right ahead Doctor.
Dr. Sargent: Well let me illustrate what I meant by wanting to get rid of meat inspection. We had eight slaughterhouses when I worked there and I went to the mayor—was Costello and ah said, ""I don't want anything to do with meat inspection—that's Ag and Markets business."" I said, ""Don't look for anything that infects human beings anyway""—it was just a lot of headaches. The meat men had too much influence and too much money, I couldn't do it. But anyway, I found that every inspector in every plant was working for the guy he was supposed to be inspecting.
Dan: Is that right? In cahoots with the slaughterhouse.
Dr. Sargent: So, I, I started raising hell about them, said, ""Well if you don't pay me enough money so I can live""—I’ll cite one instance—a burly fellow came to me one day—he need, now we needed another inspector because one of them quit so he asked for the job and I gave it to him and he had a little experience and one of the sanitarians came one day and he says, ""You know what your inspector is doing up at such and such slaughterhouse he's a buyer."" Well he had only seen me once—he didn't know me very well so I thought I'd go up and see if it was true. I went up—instead of being on the kill floor watching the slaughtering like he was supposed to, he had a straw hat on and a long white coat and was in this little cubby hole—so I recognized him, he didn't recognize me. I went over to him and said, ""If I had a load of pigs to sell, who would I see?"" He says, ""See me, I'm the buyer."" Well I said, ""I'm your boss—now you don't have a job."" Well he hemmed quite a ruckus anyway. Finally I got that straightened. I got, fortunately, there was a Doctor Jackson who had worked for public health for the Ag. and Markets in Washington for years as Veterinarian and ah he was retired. He lived in Syracuse—people lived there—so I asked him if he'd come back to work for us.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Sargent: And ah first he said ""No,” said, ""I worked in Syracuse."" Well he did eventually come back to work for us. But anyway we had a rendering plant in Syracuse that made an awful lot of smoke and bad odors and so forth and so the inspectors said, ""We can't do a thing with them."" So I always followed up inspection work and I went down to this particular rendering plane and I told them we had a lot of complaints and ah asked if they wouldn't stop it—they would do something to stop it but he didn't so I went back again about a couple months, I said, ""Now if you don't stop it we’re going to have to close the plant,"" and he kind of smiled, said, ""I'd like to see that.""
""Well,” I said, ""I don't think you would.""
""Well what I mean,” he said, ""I'd like to see you try it."" Said, “Do you know who owns this plant?""
I said, ""I don't give a—""
“Well,” he said, Swift and Co owns it.""
I said, ""Well I've already arrested Swift and Company's men 2 or 3 times a year for bumping meat.” Now do you know what bumping means? They get federally inspected meat—they have a stamp on it - beet juice stamped. Circulars going up to Newark to an uninspected slaughterhouse and buying quarters of beef—bringing them down—bumping them against the one that was federally inspected—now you couldn't tell which one, both marks were smeared.
Dan: You mean, you mean transferred from one carcass to the other?
Dr. Sargent: Yeah and hang two together like this—just put the good one with the bad one and bump them together and this would come off on the bad one and you couldn't tell which was which so we arrested them for that and then another time they sold 1800 pounds of pork shoulders and shaved off the Federal mark and my inspector called on a Sunday morning, he says, “What'll I do?” I said, ""Tell the storekeeper he has a choice of one of two things—one, he can pour kerosene on them in his store or out in the yard.” So he said he thinks he wants it done out in the yard so he had to do that but ah I'm glad.
Dan: Pretty rough.
Dr. Sargent: And the milk inspection was even worse, so when they had change of change of administration ah they didn't want me around anymore.
Dan: How many years was now that you spent up there—you went there in 1941?
Dr. Sargent: Well I was up there from ‘41 to ‘54.
Dan: ‘54.
Dr. Sargent: But part of the time I was with the State and part of the time as Health Officer.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Sargent: Well I wanted to go to the farm and work with the boy but I—my orchard wasn't developed to the point where I—I wanted to be the guy to solve the problems—let the boy run the farm but they hadn't reached that point—later it did, we were shipping 20,000 boxes of apples but then it didn't so I was mulling things over and ah Dr. Dickson, he's dead now, used to be here. Remember him?
Dan: Umhm.
Dr. Sargent: He was acting Health Officer—Dr. Tudor had left and we were at a meeting in Syracuse and Dickson said ah, ""Well if you aren't going to stay in Syracuse, why don't you come down to Binghamton—we need somebody badly."" Well I looked things over and came down. I think I better do something, I can't go to the farm, I’m too young to sit around and do nothing, so I came down and saw Kramer and he ah offered me the job and I took it.
Dan: He was Mayor at that time?
Dr. Sargent: Umhm. John Burns was his assistant.
Dan: Umhm.
Dr. Sargent: Well we had some of the same problems as we had up there ah but ah it wasn't as bad. The thing that we did have down here—I came here in ‘54 and ‘56 had a bad outbreak of polio and I had quite a lot of experience in polio because the City Hospital in Syracuse and had a lot of cases up there—so we started a vaccination program here—we got excellent cooperation from everybody. We had two former school teachers who came in and offered their services as clerks at teen clinics—my wife went down to help them file away the records and all of our nurses, not exception, volunteered to work on our clinic teams. Every Monday and every Thursday night we had a polio clinic—vaccination clinics. We didn't use the—I never liked the, in fact I used Salk vaccine which you had to inject instead of a drop on sugar for this reason—Salk vaccine was a killed virus and would do no damage. Sabin vaccine was a live virus and had started as epidemics. In institutions, they would give it to kids and in the sewer system the live virus would come through and they'd get trouble. The Sabin never has done that so I stuck to polio Sabin vaccine.
Dan: You stuck to Sabin?
Dr. Sargent: Oh, No, no.
Dan: To Salk.
Dr. Sargent: Salk—I wouldn't touch the Sabin with a ten foot pole.
Dan: Now which one is it you have on a lump of sugar?
Dr. Sargent: Sabin.
Dan: Sabin.
Dr. Sargent: Salk is the one. Salk came out originally—it is a killed bacteria.
Dan: Yeah—were you Health Officer at the time that they had that testing program? I think you were?
Dr. Sargent: Sure.
Dan: Where all of the ah ah participants—the children were vaccinated and they were vaccinated they didn't know whether they were getting the real vaccine or a placebo.
Dr. Sargent: No I don't think I was here that time.
Dan: You were never here then?
Dr. Sargent: I probably.
Dan: ‘Cause I know that my oldest daughter participated in that program—now she's 31 now and—
Dr. Sargent: I think it must have come after we left because we vaccinated—oh gosh I forget how many but we used to do 15 to 1700 a night and nobody was barred. A third of our cases came from Pennsylvania and we had some we had one family came from Wales—we had some families from California and we never barred anybody because clinical disease doesn't know any boundaries for one thing.
Dan: Right.
Dr. Sargent: Another thing was I was under State aid—in other words the State paid half of my salary and half of all my nurses' salaries. All the city had to pay was one half of what it cost and all vaccine was paid for by the Red Cross so I didn't hesitate taking anybody.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Sargent: So we did that and ah we had oh so many requests from school people and ah people under unemployment for the vaccination records that people asked us—we had very complete records. In fact it stopped it—we haven't had a case since. So that was interesting and then—remember the salt?
Dan: General Hospital, yes.
Dr. Sargent: I don't like to—
Dan: It's all right it's confidential.
Dr. Sargent: I'll say this—I had a director of nurses and her assistant I had an agreement with them—one of them stayed there all day long watch that nurse—all day—the other would stay all night and watch her.
Dan: Umhm.
Dr. Sargent: What we saw and learned—I asked the State Health Officer—I had no authority to do anything better—I asked the State Health authority we wished to be privileged—they wouldn't take away that person.
Dan: They wouldn't? That made—that was nationwide publicity it got—Life magazine and everything. Yeah, that was a terrible thing.
Dr. Sargent: Yeah, of course what happened—they disobeyed all regulations and the colored maid went down to the kitchen—instead of getting the sugar in the sugar barrel, she got into the salt barrel.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Sargent: They got the salt—it wouldn't have happened if they had helped me out but they wouldn't.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Sargent: Everywhere you turn you have to deal with (tarb)
Dan: Umhm.
Dr. Sargent: And sometimes if you get the cooperation of the community, you can get along very nicely.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Sargent: Ah Tom Corcoran, in Syracuse, was one of the nicest men I ever knew and he never turned me down on anything I wanted to do and when I wanted to stop the sale of New York dressed poultry ah I told him among other things I said, ""These poultry people are putting water into the breasts of turkeys and freezing it so they'd weigh more but they aren't too careful and are infecting the turkeys and people who cook them take care of them—now I want to stop salmonella infection I've got to stop that too. Well he hardly believed me he told me afterwards he was taking his daughter up to Rochester to a party. Her boyfriend was with them—he was telling him this as a joke cause that's no joke, ""That's my job, why I inject turkeys with it.” So Tom helped me in every way to bring this end about. It was very interesting but we did air pollution control. First we started out we hired a young lad with a tractor to mow all of the vacant lots in town—we asked to mow them all down. We mowed so to get rid of the ragweed and then we had the ah physician in town to cooperate with us to do pollen counts—published everything in the papers and ah I think our best bet was the centering our problems right in the central part of the city the 10 census tracts and our nurses concentrated their efforts there. When I went there, a nurse visited every home where there was a newborn baby, regardless of whether they got a million dollars or no money—so we stopped that. We had them visit people in 10 census tracts then we sent postcards to other people saying if you want the nurse, all you have to do is let us know. But it let the nurses concentrate their work in the 10 census tracts where our problems were and ah it had its effect very definitely and very interesting.
Dan: How about the mortality rate as far as the infants were concerned—did that go down?
Dr. Sargent: Yes it went down and then wasn't awfully high but it was higher we wanted. It’s always too high.
Dan: Yeah, that’s true.
Dr. Sargent: But the thing that concerned us the most in Syracuse ah was the sloppy way the inspectors were operating and the tuberculosis control program wasn't wanted at all and this salmonella infection thing in poultry gave us a lot of things to—in other words, in my field of work, there are plenty of problems to look for but sometimes it's difficult to get the authority to handle it.
Dan: What year did you retire Doctor?
Dr. Sargent: ‘63.
Dan: ‘63 so outside of the ah few years you were in private practice, all your life has been devoted to public health service.
Dr. Sargent: That’s right.
Dan: And in your private practice days, I suppose you made house calls.
Dr. Sargent: Uh absolutely—I was the local health officer.
Dan: (Laughter) So what would you say would be the difference in the practice of medicine today as compared to when you first started out?
Dr. Sargent: Please—don't.
Dan: Please don't get you started, huh? (laughter) It's the age of specialization.
Dr. Sargent: Well I could show you some—I've kept information every few days at Johns Hopkins and University of Vermont and so forth—publications and the older men I think are pleading, pleading so as to teach medicine. Pleading with them. This one fellow graduated at same time I did at Johns Hopkins—he had a letter in recent publications says, ''Why can't you go back to teaching medicine?""
Dan: Yeah—wasn't it true though in your day too that you had your own pharmacy—no such thing as drugstores?
Dr. Sargent: Well there was drug stores.
Dan: There weren't too many of them though.
Dr. Sargent: We dispensed a lot of medicine.
Dan: Dispensed a lot of it yourself.
Dr. Sargent: And we didn't have—I have a nephew who is the Vice President of (inaudible) Drug Company. They started, they were American boys and they went to London because they were the first ones to put powders in paper and wrap them up but these boys put them in custom made pills and they went to London to do that and were very successful so they came over here and started a branch station New York Burroughs Co. Well he went to work for them when he was a young pharmacist just out of Temple—he's now Vice President. His job is to fly to Switzerland where all this monkey business comes from through drugs—I don't have the faintest what it is today, I'm taking drugs I haven't the faintest idea what the devil they are—I don't think the Doctor knows either. But ah when there's something new they think is startling comes out. He thinks company policy goes over to Switzerland and talk and see if he thinks it's any good but I guess he's a pretty good pharmacist because he goes over and he twists an arm to find out really ‘cause my job depends on what I tell my people.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Sargent: So if he thinks it's good then he goes to London, where the headquarters really are for his offer and he gets their approval to go on with it. Then he flies to Washington to get approval down there to OK to make it—then he has to fly to his home office here and tell everything is OK to go ahead and make the pills. But ah he tells me—I asked him one day I said, ""Why can't you do something so the Doctors know what they're giving their medicine—more about it,"" said, ''Why we spend a million dollars a year putting into every package of tablets we send out just exactly how we spend our money and how it comes out.""
Dan: You know I think the public today are getting so confused that every day it comes out in the paper that no matter what you're eating, soft drinks or anything else, it's causing cancer. Now I've got sugar myself and I 'm not supposed to eat sugar but I'm substituting saccharin—now they come out and say saccharin is going to cause cancer so what am I supposed to do—crawl in and cover up? (laughter).
Dr. Sargent: Well this cancer thing is ah humm.
Dan: Now what medical school did you go to Doctor?
Dr. Sargent: University of Vermont.
Dan: University of Vermont Medical School and the University of Vermont.
Dr. Sargent: For pre-medical work.
Dan: Uhhuh and how old are you now Doctor?
Dr. Sargent: I was born in 1893
Dan: 1893.
Dr. Sargent: 85 years old last January.
Dan: And how many children do you have?
Dr. Sargent: Two.
Dan: Two—boy and a girl and the boy is up in Vermont.
Dr. Sargent: No the boy is in Watertown—he and his wife have quite a busy ceramics business.
Dan: I see.
Dr. Sargent: And the girl lives in Fairport and teaches in East High School in Rochester.
Dan: I see.
Dr. Sargent: She's married and has three daughters and ah she has—I've asked her to quit many times. She has a class, I think they're idiots—they're assigned to her by the Courts—they can't get along in school or anything else and they kick them out of school so the court makes them go to our daughter's school. Well she's been hit in the face by them, she’s had her foot broken by stomping on her feet.
Dan: My God.
Dr. Sargent: But she—I think she enjoys it because she gets hold of these—most, a lot of them are colored and she says she had one big bruiser the other day, I think 18 or 19 years old and ah he threatened to haul off and paste her—if he did he might have killed her but ah she likes it because she thinks that's worthwhile. All of them can't read a thing as high as 18, 19 years old—that's about the limit. So whatever she does is clear gain and she has to visit their homes and ah she thoroughly enjoys her work—she's going to retire in June.
Dan: That is good—so you never got the farm up in Vermont with the apple orchard?
Dr. Sargent: No, no so sold it—no we sold it ah my wife, my son's wife came from Syracuse and she got kind of homesick up there in the country—she lived there 16 years. She wanted to go back to Syracuse so they left for Syracuse and I sold the farm but ah it got to be a very productive farm—sold 20,000 boxes of apples a year.
Dan: Gee.
Dr. Sargent: And they—the man we sold it to told me 1st summer, told me, ""I was offered twice what I paid for it.""
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Sargent: And ah it's 150 acres and said for 70 acres he was offered $100,000 no buildings, but it is a very good productive orchard. But the kids, my wife didn't want to stay there and I'm too old to handle it.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Sargent: Sold it.
Dan: Have you received any awards in your work through the years Doctor?
Dr. Sargent: Yes, I've got one from Syracuse, honorary, ah fraternity from Syracuse School of Medicine, Maxwell School in Citizenship and I'm an honorary come out and I’ll show you (goes out on side porch and shows Dan diplomas)
Dan: Is there anything else you'd like to tell me?
Dr. Sargent: If you shut that off, I'll tell you. (meaning tape recorder)
Dan: Ah well for the record I'll shut it off, sure but I mean is there anything else that you can think of as far as your career is concerned before I shut it off?
Dr. Sargent: Yes I had some wonderful opportunities. In the State of Oregon, when I was doing syphilis control work in Rockwell County. State Health Commission asked me to go to New York City at the annual meeting for the entire country and sell our program, with our nurses and all—so what we were doing. Twenty-three States asked for our records and so forth and the State of Oregon asked me to come there. They said they'd give me a month’s salary—they'd pay all my expenses and so forth if I'd come up and set up a program there. They wouldn't let me go because I was—had nobody to replace me and ah they called Remington Rand—the stinkers patented my records and one day six or eight months afterwards, a young lad came into my office—spread out some records looked very familiar to me and he says, ""Of course you can use these all you want to,"" says, ""I am using it,"" says, ""You can't let anybody else use it—they're ours—they're patented."" They patented my own records.
Dan: (Laughter) My God. Well would you like me to play this back for you Doctor?
Dr. Sargent: No.
Dan: No.
Dr. Sargent: No.
",,,,"33:49 Minutes ; 17:02 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dr. Clealand A. Sargent",,,,"1978-04-26 ",,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Sargent, Clealand A. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Richford (Vt.); University of Vermont; Orwell (Vt.); Physicians -- Interviews; Health officers -- Interviews; Syracuse (N.Y.); Food adulteration and inspection; Vaccination","2016-03-27 ",,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cebb5b9482e0604dea558dffedb8f4b0.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/70668d1f1e6d18965007f8e9c34bab62.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/aaf56e1aae7e72019781e3abd62fe80a.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1b18adfedfdc99a45b3386de30fa2d5e.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c62c6cb38157a8b011846f39e2ac6586.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bccf8e3bf4f229f94e04797337ce46e6.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bc723b0a09bf48bd4d5b51da834328cb.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/133500d557bbffdc829728c5460527a4.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/be70f6ba6ee8e514e39d70446335e4a4.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b933ac7dead791019ec5d409ca4d3415.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c15c3d6dc2635211b14bc6acd48ca898.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d2166b9ceb8296137ac3133c65960ee9.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cb8ff51bd8896a3d2d766497b08c845d.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ec94a8ceee2a208aa1234ee18eccd902.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/43b6adddc483a20475f2c5242d41fba7.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1e07ed1462e2dbb557684a30da86ff8e.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1f1f1d543eb191c3c0b693846f3bcb5f.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6991b8373a86fc1c58d4f5ea5b4d81ea.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a445161abd888d15cac7f574effbaf13.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8ddd383277bfac3373f4c98e57ec7b08.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/166175bbba82ee4ae84c3fb7e5fc8c80.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/97c02042ed74f06130a242024fe5d37e.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/faf1d380697d97db773ca15507e3ff25.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 528,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/528,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"35:54 Minutes ; 14:35 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Regis C. McNamara ",,"McNamara, Regis C. ; O'Neil, Dan",,"audio/mp3 ","McNamara, Regis C. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); University of Notre Dame; University of Notre Dame -- Football; Rockne, Knute, 1888-1931; World War--1939-1945; Engineers -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.) -- Officials and employees -- Interviews; International Business Machines Corporation; Binghamton City Engineer","Regis C. McNamara talks about his education at the University of Notre Dame and playing football under Knute Rockne. During World War II he was a Lieutenant in the Construction Battalion Maintenance Unit. He worked for IBM and then as an engineer for New York State at Chenango Valley Park. He held the position of Deputy City Engineer for Binghamton before being appointed City Engineer by the then-mayor of Binghamton, Donald Kramer. He later held various positions with the State of New York and also as a private consultant. He discusses construction projects he worked on, such as, the Brandywine Highway, post office, a sewage disposal plant and a new water plant.",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-04-27,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 44A ; Recording 44B",,"O'Neil, Dan","McNamara, Regis C.",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Regis C. McNamara
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 27 April 1978
Dan: OK, Reggie, would you start out telling me about your life and experiences and working experiences in the community starting with your date and place of birth?
Reggie: Well I was born in ah Pittsburgh, PA, February 2nd, 1908 and ah I lived, I lived there very shortly and I came to ah Binghamton, NY, during ah the First World War, about 1918 and ah all my preliminary education was in the Binghamton School system—I went to Thomas Jefferson School, grade school, and Binghamton Central High School and ah—
Dan: Pardon me. [checks tape recorder] OK, go ahead.
Reggie: I played ah ah I played ah football for the Binghamton Central High School and then from Central High School, I went to the University of Notre Dame and ah at that time ah Notre Dame had a ah worldwide reputation as a ah football school as well as a good educational school and I, I matriculated at the University of Notre Dame ah I can remember I paid ah my first year’s tuition out there which took care of my board, room and tuition was $800. I’d earned the $800 ah myself ah working as a newsboy for the Binghamton Press and as workin summers on various laboring jobs. Laboring jobs were mostly to keep in shape for football, were in the fall seasons. Ah while at Notre Dame ah my course was, I took up Civil Engineering and ah by playing football at Notre Dame, I played in two National Championships football teams in 1929 and 1930—that was under Knute Rockne.
Dan: And who were some of your teammates, Reggie?
Reggie: Ah the team ah some of my teammates were ah ah Frank Carrideo—
Dan: Right.
Reggie: —who was ah an All American and was one of the ah ah best ah place kickers and punters that I've ever seen in my career of watching football.
Dan: Uh huh.
Reggie: Better than professional football like and ah I don't say that just because ah I knew Frank but for a long time in professional football they never believed in kicking out of bounds. Now, professional football has got back to kicking out of bounds but Carrideo had perfected it while he was at Notre Dame and he was a real professional when it came to kicking the ball out of bounds. Ah Marchie Swartz was another ah ah one of my players on that team. Marty Brill who was the ah—Swartz was the left halfback and Brill was the right halfback and ah we had a center was Tim Monahan and we had a couple of ends by the name of Cord and ah Marty Beezy and ah then ah I also played with what they called the shock troops during those days. Rockne had introduced the shock troops to football which was something new ah to football. The idea of the shock troops was that they would go in and play the first half, the shock troops, and try and wear down the opposition—then the other team would come in and try to score on the opposition. The shock troops were back in the third quarter with and the same idea in mind was to wear them down and then the other team would come in the fourth quarter with the hopes of scoring.
Dan: Uh huh.
Reggie: And it worked successfully for ah two seasons because we were National Championship in 1929 and 1930.
Dan: Uh huh—they didn't have the platoon system at that time?
Reggie: No, there was no platoon system, you played ah both ways.
Dan: Uh huh.
Reggie: You played on offense and defense.
Dan: Uh huh.
Reggie: And ah one of the things that ah I really believed in those days and I think they should change in the ah back to it and that was the leather helmet. The ah leather helmet was safe and it gave you plenty of protection to any blows to the head.
Dan: Umum.
Reggie: As a matter of fact, in those days, they used to allow the opponents to hit you on the head. Today you can't hit your opponent on the—it's been ruled out and still they have these ah plastic helmets which do more damage than do good. The point of ah the opponents use the plastic helmets to ah to hit your opponent on the arms or legs or in the stomach and oftentimes you can bruise a muscle that would put a player out for maybe a month or two or even break an arm or so with a plastic helmet and to me I see no reason why they should use a plastic helmet today, ah.
Dan: What position did you play, Reggie?
Reggie: I played left tackle.
Dan: Left tackle.
Reggie: Left tackle and ah the other player that played right tackle on the shock troops was Frank Leahy, who later became ah the coach of Notre Dame and was the second coach ah in the history of football that had a record similar to Rockne's. Rockne, as far as I'M concerned and it maybe ah it may be a football record—Rockne was the first coach and then I believe Leahy was the second, had the best record in football. I'm not sure of that but ah that's my recollection remembrance ah Frank was ah ah a fella that got hurt very easily.
Dan: Uh huh.
Reggie: He ah I believe his first year at Notre Dame he was a center and he ah got hurt—he got hurt and was out most of the season and when he played ah tackle, he got hurt too and ah ah and when his football days were over, he spent some time at Mayo Clinic with Rockne and they were both in the hospital at the same time and ah I believe that’s where Leahy got the desire to become a coach and also got a lot of Rockne's ah secrets.
Dan: Now Rockne died in 1931.
Reggie: It was 1931.
Dan: 31.
Reggie: Yeah when Rock—
Dan: And who succeeded him?
Reggie: Hunk Anderson.
Dan: Hunk Anderson.
Reggie: Succeeded Rockne—Hunk at the time was the ah was the ah was one of the assistant coaches that coached the line.
Dan: I see.
Reggie: And then he succeeded Rockne and they had another player there—was a backfield coach, Jack Sheven, who was later killed in the World War II ah Jack was a great player and also a great coach at Notre Dame.
Dan: Uh huh—what kind of a man was Rockne, personally?
Reggie: Rock was a, he was, he was a nice guy to ah, ah to meet. Matter of fact everybody, everybody liked him when they met him but he was a real tough man when it came to teaching young guys on the football team—in other words you were only out there for maybe an hour and a half or two hours practicing and it was all, all work—there was no such thing as play—it was all work.
Dan: Now you spoke of your first year—it cost you $800 room and board, did they have such a thing as scholarships in those days?
Reggie: They had scholarships in those days but not, not too many. I can remember ah—I didn't have a scholarship when I went out there—I went out there because I heard of Notre Dame's reputation—well I thought I'd take a chance.
Dan: I see.
Reggie: And ah the first day when we were supposed to report to football, it was on a Sunday and to get our uniforms and so I think there was something like ah a thousand guys in line to get a football suit and ah I finally, I was, was told to get over there early and ah I was about 50th in line and ah—No, I was about 10th in line. I, I and then the coach, Rockne, came over with the Freshman football coach and ah he said, now ah our Freshman football coach that year was Bo Poliski—he had been a tackle on the Notre Dame team the previous year and he told Bo, he says, “Bo, you go up and down this line and pick out some fellas you think can ah make your Freshman football,"" and ah Rockne picked out one guy himself and says, ""Some guys like this,"" and then ah Bo started to ah pick the men out and ah there must have been 50 guys in the next line. Bo finally picked me out—I think that's the only way I got a uniform because he picked me out.
Dan: Yeah—you played football all four years you were there?
Reggie: Ah yes, yes I did—I played Freshman and my 3 years as Sophomore, Junior and Senior, then I was later—ah I didn't graduate when I was supposed to in '32 so I had an extra year and ah I was, I helped coach the Freshman team out there. We ah we taught, we had in those days—the Freshmen used to play just one game—it’s like a reward for them ah efforts of being banged around by the Varsity all year long. Today I think they do play a schedule—in those days, they just played the one game.
Dan: Umum. Now after your graduation from Notre Dame, where did you go, Reggie?
Reggie: Well ah I went ah, my father was living in Pittsburgh at the time and I went home to Pittsburgh.
Dan: Umum.
Reggie: And ah that was in 1932, ‘33, 1933 and that was at the height of the Depression and ah I had no, I had no job or anything—no prospects of getting any job ah but at about that time the ah the professional team of the Pittsburgh Steelers was formed and ah I ah I had a tryout with the Steelers.
Dan: Uh huh.
Reggie: And ah I didn't, I didn't make the team but—[Wife reminds him of 3 o'clock appointment]—I didn't, I didn't make the team but ah ah I remember the salaries that they paid. They used to pay $50 a game. If you had made it, of course you'd get paid $50 a game and they had I think they had three stars on the team that were under contract—what they got I don't know but the rest of the fellows, it was $50 a game.
Dan: Uh huh.
Reggie: And ah course today the Pittsburgh Steelers is quite a team.
Dan: Oh they are, they are.
Reggie: But ah then I, I as I say, I couldn't, I couldn't get ah work in Pittsburgh, I finally came back to Binghamton and my first job was ah working for ah IBM and ah as I say I was a graduate engineer from the University of Notre Dame. I couldn't get a job as an engineer and there was a, I was able to ah talk my way in with the assistance of some friends and I got a job with IBM for $20, or what did I tell you I was getting.
Dan: 50, 40 or 50.
Reggie: Ah let’s see now, $2.00, I was getting $2 an hour, that was it.
Dan: $2.00 an hour.
Reggie: $2.00 an hour, yeah I think that’s what I got, I think.
Dan: Was it a forty hour week?
Reggie: Yes it was a forty hour week.
Dan: So you were getting $80 a week?
Reggie: Something like that.
Dan: Yeah—that was what year, about '34 or '35, Reggie?
Reggie: Ah I think it was around '34.
Dan: '34.
Reggie: ‘34 or ‘5.
Dan: Was—what job did you do down there?
Reggie: Oh I was what you call a pickup boy—I picked up material, putting them on a truck and delivering to one department and delivering them to another department.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Reggie: It wasn't my profession as an engineer.
Dan: Yeah.
Reggie: Well I finally the ah I got a job in the ah the New York State Department at Chenango Valley State Park as an engineer.
Dan: What year was that?
Reggie: That was about 1935, I believe.
Dan: Uh huh.
Reggie: I worked along with the CCC boys.
Dan: Oh yes.
Reggie: Teaching them surveying and then also doing design work for the Parks Department and then ah after that ah I would ah—I'd some work for the Army engineers and then after that I worked for the City of Binghamton.
Dan: What year did you start with the City?
Reggie: Ah I think it was 1922 that I first started.
Dan: Ah, no.
Reggie: Oh wait a minute, not ‘22 ah was just before the War, 1942.
Dan: 1942.
Reggie: 1942, yeah—I worked for the City as Deputy City Engineer and then ah later on I became the City Engineer.
Dan: Umum.
Reggie: And I was 16 years City Engineer of the City of Binghamton.
Dan: Umum. Now all told how many years were you with the City?
Reggie: I think it totaled up something like 22 years.
Dan: 22 years.
Reggie: 22 years I was with the City.
Dan: Uh huh. Did you go into Service at all?
Reggie: Yes, ah ah I left the, I left the City when I was Deputy City Engineer to ah join the Navy and ah I took my indoctrination at Harvard University and ah I was assigned to Corpus Christi ah flying aviation field and ah from there I ah, I, I wasn't in what they call a construction battalion at that time but later joined up with the construction battalions and from there ah from Corpus Christi I was sent overseas as a Lieutenant in charge of what they call a CBMU, that's a Construction Battalion Maintenance Unit, that was five officers and 200 men and ah I was the Commanding Officer, and I spent time in the Pacific area in Wallace Island and ah ah British Samoa. Then after I came out of the Pacific, I spent time with ah ah down in New Orleans ah as a Public Works officer down there.
Dan: Umum.
Reggie: And then I was honorably discharged and ah I came back to Binghamton and ah I started a consulting engineering business and I worked at that for a while and then I was ah I became a City Engineer.
Dan: City Engineer.
Reggie: City Engineer of the City of Binghamton.
Dan: Uh huh, but you were an assistant at first—right?
Reggie: I was the Deputy City Engineer.
Dan: Deputy.
Reggie: Yes.
Dan: Uh huh and that was prior to the War and right after—you got a leave of absence to enter the War?
Reggie: That’s right, yeah.
Dan: OK, yeah, and what was your salary starting out as a Deputy, Reggie, if it's not too personal?
Reggie: No, it's not too personal. I'm trying to think ah it wasn't very much ah it seems like it was around maybe $8000 a year, something like that.
Dan: And then as a Civil Engineer at the time of your retirement, what had it gone to?
Reggie: Well ah as a even as City Engineer I think I only made ah as high as 12 or $13,000.
Dan: Is that right? Now was this a Civil Service position?
Reggie: No.
Dan: You didn't have to take—
Regrie: No it was an appointive position.
Dan: And you were appointed by who?
Reggie: I was appointed by Don Kramer who was the Mayor at that time.
Dan: Uh huh.
Reggie: And I think that was in 19, 1955, I believe.
Dan: 1955 and you retired—what year?
Reggie: Ah well I didn't retire—I was the ah the ah opposition party that had control of ah City Hall I think it was in 1960. That would make it about 16 years anyhow or ‘66, something like that, ‘66, 1966 and ah they appointed their Engineer so then I went back to my consulting engineering business.
Dan: I see, yeah.
Reggie: And then I worked at that for a while and from there I ah I had various positions ah with the New York State—I worked in the New York State Office of General Service. I worked on the, as an engineer, on the Municipal or State Office building over here in the center of Binghamton and from there I ah worked on various ah ah buildings like the new Post Office building—I worked for an architect on that and then I worked on for the Broome ah up here on Glenwood Avenue.
Dan: Oh yeah, the retarded to the Broome Developmental Center.
Reggie: No.
Dan: Or was it BOCES?
Reggie: No not BOCES, it’s the school for the—
Dan: The retarded.
Reggie: The retarded children.
Dan: Yeah—that's Broome Developmental.
Reggie: Oh is that what it is?
Dan: Yeah.
Reggie: Well I worked on that ah for one of the contractors I guess and then later after that I worked for the New York State Housing and Community Development ah ah as a Code Engineer.
Dan: I see—did you work in conjunction with Dorothy Titchner at all?
Reggie: No.
Dan: You didn't?
Reggie: No.
Dan: Because she was the Housing Authority.
Reggie: She was the Housing Authority and ah no my, you see my area working for the housing ah people were in the Code Sections.
Dan: Code Sections.
Reggie: Yes and I used to travel the ah western section of New York State to visit building inspectors to ah answer any questions they may have concerning the New York State building code.
Dan: I see.
Reggie: And then after that I ah, I retired.
Dan: Uh huh—that was in what year would you say?
Reggie: Well let’s see about 3 years now ah.
Dan: 3 years—'75.
Reggie: About '75.
Dan: Yeah but as a civil engineer, what was your duties—the City Engineer?
Reggie: Well as City Engineer you were responsible ah to see ah that the streets were properly paved, new sewers were put in ah repairs of ah of ah structures and also the building of new structures, the letting of contracts for incinerators, water filtration plants, sewage disposal plants.
D an: Uh huh so you worked probably with ah Charlie Costello.
Reggie: No ah ah at that time the Water Superintendent was Cy Carmen.
Dan: Oh is that right?
Reggie: Yeah Cy Carmen was the Water Superintendent and I worked a lot with Cy.
Dan: I see.
Reggie: But ah—
Dan: Did you have anything to do with the downtown urban renewal?
Reggie: Oh yes ah as one of the officers in the City Administration ah the City Engineer was on the ah board—it was called the Urban Renewal Board and there was the City Engineer, the Mayor first, the Mayor was the chairman and the City Engineer, the Corporation Counsel, the Comptroller and ah I believe there was one other—there was 5 altogether that was on that board and ah we had to, we had to make certain decisions for urban renewal and ah I remember at the time ah the ah, ah the regional man, I can't remember his name now, he wanted me to take over the urban renewal and I, I turned it down. I didn't want any part of it although some engineers in other cities throughout the State did have both jobs—the City Engineer and also the Head of the Urban Renewal.
Dan: Yeah.
Reggie: I think Bill Green was the one that got the job—he took it over as Head of Urban Renewal.
Dan: Yeah but you were in office when the ah Urban Renewal built the new Post Office.
Reggie: Ah.
Dan: That is the Brandywine Highway and new Post Office and all of that.
Reggie: Well I was in office when all the ah I would say a great, a great ah majority of the construction was done during my 16 years. The arterial highways were all built during that time, ah the new Water Works was built, incinerator was built, the sewage disposal plant was built, the intercepting sewers were all built during my time as we built the ah we built a couple—we built one fire station, we built the Ely Park ah clubhouse up there so ah I remember it was a very active building time.
Dan: It was because since then, it has been dormant.
Reggie: “It has been dormant,” is correct.
Dan: And what do you think of the prospects of Mondev—do you think that's going to go down the tube?
Reggie: I really believe so.
Dan: You really believe so.
Reggie: I believe so, I think.
Dan: Uh huh.
Reggie: I ah I don't think Mondev is sincere and ah the reason I say that is because ah Mondev has been trying to get every possible inch that they can and of course if I was in Mondev's shoes and was a builder, I would ah maybe do the same thing because they are trying to get every possible thing that they can get.
Dan: Yeah.
Reggie: And I think it's about time the City of Binghamton realizes that is all they're interested in and if they don't get everything that they want they'll just drop it like a hot potato.
Dan: Well of course they have diminished the plans to the extent now that it doesn't make much difference whether they take it or leave it.
Reggie: That's correct, that's correct.
Dan: Of course in the meantime all the business has gone out to the Mall.
Reggie: Right, right.
Dan: Ah Reggie you mentioned that you were born in Pennsylvania.
Reggie: Pittsburgh, PA.
Dan: Pittsburgh, PA, and you came here in 1918 and for what reason did you come to Binghamton?
Reggie: Well my father was connected with ah ah a tire company.
Dan: Oh I see.
Reggie: He ah it started out in Gallipos, Ohio, this tire company, and then it moved to Binghamton—it was called Achilles Rubber and Tire Company—it was located at the north end of Floral Avenue.
Dan: Uh huh.
Reggie: Matter of fact it was the first tire company in the world or in the country that guaranteed their tire to go 10,000 miles. (laughter).
Dan: So, so he stayed here then.
Reggie: He stayed in Binghamton.
Dan: And then you went, you went to Central and all your grammar school and everything.
Reggie: Right.
Dan: Your education was here in Binghamton. OK and do you belong to any clubs at all Reggie?
Reggie: Yes I belong to the New York State Professional Engineers ah Society and also belong to the Knights of Columbus and of course the Notre Dame Alumni and also the Notre Dame Monogram Club.
Dan: Umum.
Reggie: I think that’s about the extent.
Dan: That’s about the extent and you're married and how many children?
Reggie: Married and I had two boys ah my youngest son was ah killed in an automobile accident and my oldest boy, John, is a professor at the University of Ohio University in Athens, Ohio.
Dan: I see.
Reggie: He's a clinical psychologist.
Dan: Oh.
Reggie: Doctor of Clinical Psychologist.
Dan: Wonderful, wonderful, fine and you had your first grandchild this ah—
Reggie: Just ah, let’s see, just a couple of weeks ago.
Dan: Just a couple of weeks ago. (laughter). OK now is there anything else you would like to include in this interview Reggie before I terminate it?
Reggie: No I don't think so.
Dan: I think you have covered your working experiences quite well.
Reggie: Yes I think I have.
Dan: Uh huh but you were in office during the height of the building ah development of downtown.
Reggie: Right, right.
Dan: And since you left, why, it's and it was a politically appointed position.
Reggie: I was, yeah, uh huh.
Dan: OK fine—well thank you very much Reggie—would you like me to play this back for you?
[Pause]
Dan: Reggie you mentioned you wanted to make some corrections in the interview especially starting now with the starting salary you got when you first went to IBM.
Reggie: Yes ah I mentioned I got $2.00 an hour well that was a mistake, I got 20 cents an hour at that time.
Dan: OK and then you ah at Notre Dame.
Re ie: Yes the other player I would like to mention I played with out at Notre Dame was ah ah Jumping Joe Savoldi who was an All American at Notre Dame and later he played with the Chicago Bears as a football player and then after that he went into wrestling and became the World's heavyweight champion wrestler and ah he defeated ah Strangler Lewis for the championship and that ah and in those days ah that was a regular championship match—as you know today wrestling is more of a—
Dan: —a show.
Reggie: —a show more than anything else but not in those days, they were championship matches.
Dan: Right, right. Thank you Reggie.
",,,,"35:54 Minutes ; 14:35 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Regis C. McNamara",,,,1978-04-27,,"Broome County Oral History Project","McNamara, Regis C. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); University of Notre Dame; University of Notre Dame -- Football; Rockne, Knute, 1888-1931; World War--1939-1945; Engineers -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.) -- Officials and employees -- Interviews; International Business Machines Corporation; Binghamton City Engineer",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e3a1370e913fbe2149aca1f2da535e21.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/aa0e61909fbc7f44c32d180b4521aca0.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/88df15812a7da615cdc41b731b34debe.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ac23c7e82404a070f7e48e87f3e67669.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e0d5d5a049414b142df2f7c654c547ba.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b68f6dc3ccb7c7115a988f587c37c567.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2a5e092dfb93e2584a70e3dc60343c9b.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cca3c0f8523c4b1e4ed1a289751af733.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a129956fdc8c04434166befe997fe8ff.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9e05751d6de5092bae342a515dfa3553.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/32339b43dbf08b1505086c254767f7f7.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0c6908b88dad02a8d91e042fa9d91f2e.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/760da54acf33c4d91caf72d7c498ba2e.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8eea85637d9a8f3a09bd1603dd5ea2c3.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0004224cb12dd1174cc924602c699cb8.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7fcf306abba8625049aecb011e883118.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dd6195e9c010d10fcbb8bc10a2ed354d.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,1 535,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/535,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"27:45 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Olga Riggins ",,"Riggins, Olga ; Caganek, Anna",,"audio/mp3 ","Riggins, Olga -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees; Hotels -- Employees; Carlova Perfume Factory; Hotel Billingshurst; Christ the King Church","Olga Riggins talks about her parents' courtship and emigration from Europe to the U.S. She talks about her father's store and the ice house he operated. She tells of her variety of jobs - the Endicott Shoe Corporation, Carlova Perfume Factory, Hotel Billingshurst as a maid, and working in her family's store. She speaks about how she occupies her time, dedication to her church, Christ the King, and the various church activities she is involved with. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-04-27,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 51 ",,"Caganek, Anna ","Riggins, Olga ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Olga Riggins
Interviews by: Anna Caganek
Date of interview: 27 April 1978
Anna: I am Anna Caganek, the interviewer, talking to Olga Riggins. 302 Kent Ave, Endwell, New York. On April 27, 1978. Okay, so…now you could tell me about your life and your experiences.
Olga: Well, my parents were born in Europe. See, my father came from Uhersky Brod. He was born in 1884, and my mother was born in Holicek [sic], 1896. Her maiden name was Konecny. They had a 5 year courtship in Europe, before they were married. Then they settled down and had a grocery store. Two children were born in Europe and my father came to this country in 1910. And one of his first jobs was working in the Fairbanks for about 7 dollars a week. And they moved in with some relatives - I remember that. It was very reasonable - I remember that. And let’s see…after that… I don’t know his other jobs, but…oh, one boy was born in America, he lived to be about a year old. And there was a cholera epis-epidemic at the time. So he died. And then about a year later, I was born. And I was born right on Glenwood Ave. And downstairs was a grocery store and that my mother was working there, too. What else for now…? No? [foreign] Well, let’s see…where else do we go from there?
Anna: Take your time.
Olga: Well, my father had an education in Europe - a business course. So he was a businessman, even in Europe. So when he came to this country, he started up a store on Clinton St. I think the number was 186 at the time…and then I think at that address, two more brothers were born. And he had the store, and he framed pictures, and he sold religious articles, and all kind of foreign cards in all the First Ward, very popular store. And then much later, he had another store on 60 Glenwood Ave. And at that address, my sister was born; she was the last of the six children. Let’s see, after she had six children, um…yeah, my parents not only had a store - they also had an icehouse. And that was very interesting because all the children helped, including myself. I almost forgot about that…that was really good. Yeah, and everybody came with their cars and wagons, business was good. We really, really enjoyed it. It was a gold mine.
Anna: How much was the ice then?
Olga: Oh! Well, the ice? 50 cents for 100 pounds, and I think 10 cents for 25 pounds. I used to enjoy working there. That was really fun.
Anna: A time when there was no refrigerators?
Olga: Yeah, there was no refrigerators at the time, so that was good. And you, there was a nice hotel across the street from us, a, a hotel. Hutta’s Hotel. That was really nice; I remember that. And where a beautiful garden there was around there. And the people across the street would get their beer, they go with pitchers, buy their beer across the street. That was really nice. Now there’s a gas station. Let’s see, after that? I’m trying to think…well, I got married when I was living on Glenwood Ave. I met my husband in a shoe factory, and we have one son. Let’s see…I think I stayed about 3 years in E. J.’s [Endicott Johnson]. And then, um…before then or afterwards, I worked in a restaurant as a short order cook for about 2 years. And at one time, I put in a couple years at Carlova Perfume Factory. That was interesting.
Anna: What did they do there?
Olga: At Carlova’s?
Anna: Mm-hm.
Olga: Well, we were packing things. Some of them filled powder boxes, some filled the perfume bottles. I remember packing bath salts, packing bath salts and putting them in boxes. That was interesting work, but that was just part time. And I was also a maid in a Hotel Billinghurst, which is gone now. That was interesting work, too.
Anna: What were you doing?
Olga: I was a maid. I was a maid in the Hotel Billinghurst for a couple years. And I spent a lot of time working in a store. See, I enjoyed selling things; I helped a lot in the icehouse and in a store. That kept me pretty busy. And let’s see, what else? Dan? Dan, my husband, was a furnace man - he installed furnaces. That was good work. And he retired…oh, I guess he was, you know, 62. Only 62 years old, he retired.
Anna: And what does your son do?
Olga: Oh, yeah. Our son has a good job. He works in the Gas and Electric Company. He went to Broome Tech. for 2 years; that was his education. And he is doing doing very well working for the Gas and Electric Company for the last, about 11 years now. Anything else now? Um, that’s our tape, our tape. What about my sister? Well, we don’t care about her - she getting [unintelligible]
Anna: You could tell ‘em.
Olga: Well, let’s see…should I tell ‘em about my brother’s [unintelligible]? They don’t care about that. Let’s see…the second oldest brother died. He worked in Links. He died about 5 years ago, and then almost 2 years ago, a younger brother died. He worked for the printing company: Hall Printing. He died. The rest of us live.
Anna: And you could say that!
Olga: And the rest of us live. Well, only 2 died and there’s 4 out of 6, so that isn’t so bad.
Anna: How many children did your mother have?
Olga: 6 - well, one died, so that was actually 7. 7.
Anna: 7.
Olga: There was 7, so there’s 4 survivors. And my father had interesting work. when the people want to send money to Europe, he was very handy. He had a business with a bank in New York, and the people would bring their money. He was a very good, experienced man - a good writer and a businessman. So they would pay him a small fee and he would send their money to Europe. That was a good service for the people in the First Ward. They enjoyed sending a little money to Europe and he liked to do that for them. And he was one of the first people to have a car. We lived on Clinton St. Nobody else had a car. His first Ford…boy, that was, everybody liked that. They would go for a ride.
Anna: You don’t know what year, right?
Olga: Oh, I’m trying to think if it was 1923?
Anna: Mm.
Olga: About 1923 ‘cause I’m standing on the train and I was born in 1916. Let’s see…he did that, what else did he do? Of course, back to Europe again, it’s too late for that.
Anna: No.
Olga: Too late? While my mother was in Europe, her father had a good job. He was like an overseer, sort of like a plantation, and my mother was a young girl. And she used to weed out the sugar cane. I remember her telling me that.
Anna: Mm.
Olga: She was very active and liked liked to help out, so she enjoyed weeding out the sugar cane; that was one of her jobs. And then her mother wanted her to learn how to be a good cook and learn outside things, so she was hired out to a school teacher in Europe. So she cooked for a school teacher and lived in a very nice place. They had peacocks and everything there - I remember that. And lot of these fancy dogs. So my mother was, um, learning how to cook. And she was housekeeper and cook in this nice home. And after she got married, and my father told her she can’t work there anymore, so she enjoyed that. And when the school teacher took sick, my mother took over the class. She let her take over. This must’ve been a lower grade, I guess so. Any, elementary school. So my mother was smart enough to take over when the lady couldn’t make it.
Anna: Mm-hm.
Olga: That was a good job. There’s a lady here in Binghamton that worked for the same household: Mrs. Mizule. [sic] She worked for the same household. Yeah…and I always thought I could go to Europe sometime, but I don’t know…still hoping. And I, well, they don’t have to know about that cousin that, she died. She was the one that encouraged me to come. Yeah, she encouraged me to come. My cousin, Anna Kocecny. She really wanted me to come and the poor soul, she died Easter Day. She told me if I came to Europe, she’d show me where my grandparents lived, where they’re buried, all the interesting things. And especially, I’d like to see that castle where she had been working as a hostess. Someday, maybe I’ll still get there. ‘Cause I still have a few cousins there.
Anna: About the baths?
Olga: Oh, they have these mineral baths in Europe that, a lot of the Americans go there. And I heard so many people that go to Europe tell me about those mineral baths - the Health Baths. Now, that’s one of the places I’d like to go. The Health Bath…that would really be something.
Anna: Is, is that the one that’s in Carlsbath, or…?
Olga: No, that’s, uh…the one, um…it’s near Trnava. It’s, um…who has - Trnava, and what’s that other town? Oh, oh, I’ve heard of them.
Anna: [unintelligible]
Olga: No, no, no, I’ve heard it because they’ve been there. I can’t think of it now. [unintelligible] You know, those mineral baths, and it’s…their climates are so different there, their summers come early. And Americans come to this castle to be entertained. Someday, I gotta go there, see for myself all the things I hear about. And the same cousin said if I don’t get there, that our children and her children should get together and look over our European country where our ancestors came from.
Anna: Mm.
Olga: Gee, that’s a long tape.
Anna: Yeah, it’s some [unintelligible] gonna say [unintelligible]
Olga: Goodness. What else is new?
Anna: And about your husband, what does he do?
Olga: Well, he’s retired now.
Anna: No?
Olga: Well, he’s retired, but yeah…Dan’s re-Dan’s retired.
Anna: He never worked in - oh, yeah! He worked in E. J. Johnson, right?
Olga: Oh, yeah; 20 years. Yeah, Dan worked in E.J.’s 20 years and he got no benefits at the time. There was no Social Security, nothing. No retirement. 20 years for nothing. Very, you know, cheap labor, yeah. He put in 20 years. Then he worked for the various different, um, heating companies: Glenwood Heating and Statewide Heating. He worked for all of them. So he was very well-experienced with the, all kind of heating problems.
Anna: Mm-hm.
Olga: And he was very efficient around the house ‘cause anything breaks down…yeah, he could fix everything.
Anna: And what, what did you do for entertainment?
Olga: For entertainment? Not much.
Anna: [laughs]
Olga: Watch TV. No, I’m the kind that likes to go places and do things. I do a lot of volunteer work, I go to state hospital every month…
Anna: Tell me about that.
Olga: What, the state hospital?
Anna: About when you come there and…
Olga: What we do in the state hospital?
Anna: Yeah.
Olga: Well, I enjoy it because every month, we do something different. Now, I have lot of fun there because I never bowled in my life, and now I went bowling again. That was fun. And, uh, I’ve never been to a hayride. You go to the state hospital as a volunteer, I really enjoyed doing the things that the patients do. And they get to know you after a while. Then I go to Western Broome, made a lot of friends within the year. I got lot of friends in Western Broome because we have trips, and dinner dances, cover dish. And we have a lot of good times and I met a lot of nice people there.
Anna: What ch-?
Olga: Oh, and of course - what church?
Anna: Not, no, what church did you go to?
Olga: Well, I belong to Christ the King in Endwell, and I belong to Legion of Mary, Altar Rosary, uh, Golden Age. Very busy lady.
Anna: [chuckles]
Olga: I really enjoy being with people, and helping people, and being useful. Helping out anybody that needs help. And I know the senior citizens get phone numbers for all these things, so I tell people, “You can get help here, you can get help there.”
So it’s good to be a senior citizen.
Anna: Mm-hm.
Olga: How long is the tape? [chuckles]
Anna: Oh, God.
Olga: How much longer?
Anna: We got a lot more.
Olga: I see like a, oh. I thought, I thought, oh…
Anna: 90 - 92 minutes.
Olga: Oh, I’m talking too fast. Oh, ours is only one hour, see. One hour. And you got, like, 10 minutes. This is a really, really big one. We talk a lot. Something else that won’t be blank?
Anna: No.
Olga: Let’s see…all the interesting things…well. We, we have a s-grandchild, my husband’s grandchild.
Anna: Where do they live?
Olga: Oh, the grandchild? They live in Littlestown, Pennsylvania. I married a widower who has 2 sons. The older one is a widower, and the younger one is remarried and has this, only grandchild that we have. Of course, our boy is still single, still looking. And he’s a very good boy - helps his parents any way he can.
Anna: [unintelligible]
Olga: Oh, lots of properties. Yeah, he’s a young fellow, but he likes to invest, so…he’s got investments for his old age. Let’s see…
Anna: What were some of the most interesting things you like to do?
Olga: My most interesting? Oh, nothing.
Anna: Traveling, huh? Traveling.
Olga: Traveling? Well, I enjoy going to, um, these religious - I enjoy going on these religious trips to Fatima near Canada because that’s the only way I got to Canada - by going with the church group.
Anna: How about a place where they, where the people were dressed differently?
Olga: I didn’t go there, you didn’t take me to such a town. You didn’t take me there, you didn’t take me. Now, where was I? I was talking about something…about my trips.
Anna: Yeah.
Olga: Yeah, if the churches and senior citizens didn’t have these trips, I probably wouldn’t go anyplace. My husband likes to drive, but not too far. I don’t know. He likes to go for a ride but not too far. So by going on these different excursions and bus trips, I’ve been to a lot of places like Mount Airy Lodge. I probably never would have got there if it wasn’t for the Senior Citizens - it was very reasonable. And I went to Niagara Falls, I think 2 or 3 times already. He never took me - I had to take myself to go to Niagara Falls. Let’s see, where else do I go…?
Anna: You like animals?
Olga: Oh, animals? Oh, yeah. I like animals. Yeah, we have a cat - she must be 12 or 13 years old. Florence, she’s such a nice cat kitty.
Anna: [chuckles]
Olga: She’s really a pleasure, and she’s so smart like a dog. You walk out the house, she follow you. And she’s a lot, a lot of pleasure. ‘Course, we used to have a dog, but that’s old stuff.
Anna: You ever go to the circus?
Olga: Oh, that? Yep. We care about that?
Anna: Yeah.
Olga: I thought just history - this ain’t history. Well, I enjoyed the circus, and I used to go when they had ‘em in the tents, Stow Flats.
Anna: Well, it’s history in a way.
Olga: [laughs]
Anna: ‘Cause you go there and, you know…
Olga: Yeah. Well, they had, uh, circus in a tent. But now they have an arena, it’s so much nicer, and cleaner, and easy to get to. Buses run. We have very good, very good bus travel here - I enjoy riding the buses. And now that I’m a senior citizen, I get a discount. That’s nice, too. That discount, I enjoy that. And, let’s see..I guess they’re going to improve our Ross Park. I’ve been going there practically all my life, and it is better than it was before, but they’re making improvements all the time. That’s one of the places I love to go.
Anna: Did you ever go there on that, on a streetcar?
Olga: Yep, I went on a streetcar, but I must have been about 10 or 12 at the time. Because I remember the streetcars, vaguely. And Recreation Park, I passed it the other day. And I used to take care of my sister, and walked with a carriage, I loved Recreation Park. That hasn’t changed - that’s still nice.
Anna: Mm-hm.
Olga: Oh, I do love our parks. And I’ve been to state parks since that’s changed over. State park has changed over, and what’s nice is that senior citizens don’t even have to pay now. If you go on a weekday - not a, not a Saturday, Sunday, or holiday - you don’t even have to pay. Which is very nice.
Anna: You worked in E.J., didn’t you?
Olga: Yeah. Did I say that? 3 years. Yeah, I said 3 years E. J.’s, and 2 - yeah. I’m a dander.
Anna: Oh.
Olga: 3 years in E. J.’s and 2 years in P. J.’s. [chuckles] P. J.’s Restaurant.
Anna: Well, how much, you weren’t - how much were you making then, when you first started?
Olga: Oh, good heavens. It was a day work job, I don’t even know. I was working day work - I didn’t put in that many years to compare.
Anna: You weren’t making much income?
Olga: No, I don’t know how much, but it wasn’t much.
Anna: You wanna tell ‘em about E. J.’s? How nice they were.
Olga: How nice were they? In what way?
Anna: They held, they gave the parties, and…
Olga: Oh, E. J.’s? Well, while I worked in E. J.’s, I went - when my department, everybody went in, whoever went into service were all, they had a party, went to all the parties. That was nice.
Anna: Mm-hm. That was for a dollar, you would say…
Olga: Oh, the banquet? Well, E. J.’s was a very nice company. I will never forget ‘em because they had the E. J. banquets and I went to quite a few, and my gosh. For a dollar, you got your money’s worth. That was really something.
Anna: Mm.
Olga: Dad didn’t go, but I used to go with the other people. I really enjoyed going. And our son has a cottage - we like to go there. You know, being senior citizens, it’s a nice place to go, and it’s so quiet, it’s so nice there. And Dan’s pretty smart; he fixed up, um, a motor, and he hooked on to a car battery. And you don’t have to row the boat - it just takes you for a ride. The boat goes around the lake, and it’s so nice and so peaceful. All white birch trees - a lot of ‘em. That’s why it’s called White Birch Lake. White Birch in Windsor; nice place to visit.
Anna: [unintelligible]
Olga: Well, everybody else has been there, yeah. We haven’t been around, we go. Yep. And it’s…Joey modernized it: He has a little water bed there now. And one bedroom is all finished; the other bedroom isn’t finished yet, but it’s really nice. And when the blackberry season comes - I went once, I’d like to go again - people can pay, I forgot, not very much, and you can pick your own blackberries. So a couple years ago, I was picking blackberries there. That made it nice. Anna: Did you ever pick blackberries way back when you were a kid?
Olga: Not, not that I remember. Oh, a little bit. When Tommy was small, I took care of Tommy. He used to go picking things.
[unintelligible]
Anna: When we went to the [unintelligible] play.
Olga: Oh, that? Well, I don’t know what year, I don’t know what year that was, but a friend of mine - should I talk about this?
Anna: You could.
Olga: Well, Anne Cagenek, my friend from way back, we had a chance to be actresses on a stage. They had a Passion play, and we were Jewish ladies - Arabian or Jewish ladies. And we even had costumes, and make-up, and we played for 3 matinees. 3 matinees - that was something. Imagine being on the stage.
Anna: And you were in the Passion show?
Olga: The Passion show. Yeah, it was the Passion play, and we were on a stage. We played for 3 matinees.
Anna: [unintelligible]
Olga: Before the, just before the Capital Theatre was torn down. So we certainly miss, uh, that Capital Theatre. We miss it because that was such a show. Being on a stage, that’s once in a lifetime thing. And I enjoyed going there with my mother because they had vaudeville. Now, that was something. We don’t have vaudeville anymore - I do miss it. Wish we had the Capital Theatre, but now there’s a big parking lot for the bank. Theatre is gone. And, let’s see…oh, I used to belong to St. Cyril’s Church way back. And that was remodeled and torn down. Now, there’s a brand new church there. I went there all my life. And of course, now I go to Christ the King on Davis St. It’s a very small church, but very friendly - you get to know half the church. And, uh, we have Monsignor Frieze [sic] there and Father Walsh. So, it’s…oh, and our church, uh, once a month, we have this Golden Age which is very nice. It only started a few years ago, and I’m one of the members. Also, my husband is a member. We all bring a cover dish, and, um…first, we have our mass. And then we go downstairs and have our dinner. And then we have entertainment. Sometimes musicians come in and play for us, sometimes we have bingo, and they do give door prizes. And it’s, it’s very nice for the older people to get to. And we didn’t have that too long, so…we like that. And Dan isn’t a church member, but this, he does go with me. It’s one way to get him to church. He really likes that. group it’s very nice I belong there, I started a few years ago I belong there, I’m one of the members also my husband is a member.
Anna: You’re, you’re a young senior citizen.
Olga: I am?
Anna: Aren’t you?
Olga: Well, the bus driver says, “Senior citizen?”
I says, “Yeah, I’m not ashamed to say I’m young senior citizen - 62.” I said, “Being a senior citizen, you do have a lot of nice breaks that I didn’t have before. I’m gonna go to Phase then, I understand that if you, lot of card, you can get a discount on any Phase products. I didn’t know that. You go to Kent’s? You don’t get a discount - only on the prescription - because anybody that walks in says that it’s already marked down.” No, you can only get a discount only on the prescription. With Phase, you can get a discount on anything in the store has the Phase label. You know, there’s washing supplies and cleaning things, or whatever you wanna buy at Phase, you do get a discount - you look into that. And what else?
I was smart enough to get some of my mother’s receipts, I have a whole book of my her recipes. So [clears throat] a lot of the things she cooked and baked, I could read the book and do it just like my mother did. That’s something. Yep.
Anna: How long did you live in Binghamton?
Olga: How long have I lived in Binghamton? Well, all my life; I’ve never lived anyplace else. Binghamton’s my hometown. Born in Binghamton and probably die here [chuckles].
Anna: And where do you go?
Olga: Yeah, well, I go on little visits - not big ones. But, yeah. Binghamton is my hometown. And I’m watching it change. Some of the things are pretty good. ‘Course, the old-fashioned things we miss, but [clears throat] we’re having a lot of little, nice improvements. Walking through Court Street, I see all the buildings get a new front. I see the work - oh, they’re cleaning up Binghamton. It’s really nice. I like the little park they have around by by the river: Benches and trees. They’re really improving Binghamton - I could see it change in all these years. Well, we’ve been here 62 years, that’s quite a while. I don’t think I’d like to live anyplace else…yep. I really care about Binghamton.
Anna: [unintelligible]
Olga: About our cemetery? Well, we have a nice cemetery. It’s, uh, Saint Cyril’s Cemetery. Saint Cyril’s.
Anna: And is that where your family…?
Olga: Yeah, your family. Don’t I know…Well, I’m looking forward to May 18. I’m going to Rochester. I hope the lilacs are open by then. In Rochester…I did do go there a couple years ago. We went to the Kodak Mansion, where the first cameras and the first pictures were made. That was really, really interesting. And then we went to a conservatory, saw all kinds of Oriental plants. And, uh, Hawaiian plants that we don’t even see around here - hope I go there again. And of course, we always stop at some nice restaurant. Those trips are really - I’m looking forward, I expect to go. Spring is here, but I’m gonna be traveling all summer: Every chance I get. So May 18 is my first trip. And maybe I’ll go to Canada again…I like that, too. And Niagara Falls, you never get tired of that. They don’t care that I went to [unintelligible]
Anna: What?
Olga: That I went to [unintelligible]. That I’m very lucky. You gonna put all that in the book?
Anna: Well, there’s something worth saying there. You can tell ‘em.
Olga: Well, they call me lu- they call me lucky. I don’t know why because I win this and that. Not everything, but almost.
Anna: Almost.
Olga: Even at the Senior Citizen, we have bingo. And I won yesterday, and I won last week. And when I went to the dinner dance, I won a door prize there. It won two fancy handkerchiefs.
Anna: Oooh.
Olga: It was 300 people, or not…was it 300? 125 people and only 6 people won. It was 125, and I was one of the 6. [chuckles] They see me walking to the thing. [clears throat]
Anna: You went to the WMBF?
Olga: Oh, WMBF? Let’s see, they didn’t give me a television. WMBF?
Anna: But you won a lot of things.
Olga: Well, I won that AM/FM radio I won on WMBF, and WNBR, a black and white television. And when the Oakdale Mall opened, I was lucky I won a television in the Citizens’ Savings Bank. And then a long time ago…we won - or actually, Dan - the BB store had a grand opening, so that actually, that was Dan’s television. Hm, they call me lucky. I wonder why? I must live right. That’s what they tell me. Every time I turn around, something nice happens. Yeah, I guess there is something to it: If you live right, it really pays off to live right.
Anna: [unintelligible]
Olga: [chuckles] God bless America. [laughs]
Anna: And that’s it. Thank you, Olga, for the interview.
Olga: You’re welcome, Anne.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Charles English
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 28 April 1978
Dan: Charlie, would you start out giving me your life and working experiences in the community, ah, starting with your date and place of birth?
Charlie: Well, I was born, ah, July 18, 1930 in Binghamton and, ah, ah, my father was E.C. English. My mother's name was, ah, Edna L. Zimmerman, maiden name—she was from Johnson City. Ah, I was brought up in Windsor and lived here more or less all my life except for the time I was in the service of the United States during the Korean War and, ah, my two jaunts at college—ah, I attended, ah, Harpur College after graduation from Windsor High School—graduated from Harpur in 1952 with an A.B. in Foreign Languages—Spanish, ah, was the Major—and shortly thereafter, of course, was drafted into the Army and, ah, was led to believe that I was going to be a Spanish interpreter, and you know how that goes. (laughter). Ah, ended up being an Infantryman—sent to Korea with a bunch of, ah, Puerto Rico soldiers at the time—my only interpreting was, ah, trying to translate orders from the American officers of these Puerto Ricans. Well after, ah, in Korea, I ended up in, ah, the Signal Corps and worked in the troop information and education and ah, ah, raising the, ah, educational level of soldiers after, when the war ended and we came back to the United States. My dad and I had a conference about the drugstore, ah, and I decided that I would go back to Pharmacy School, so we went four years to Albany Pharmacy and, ah, had our B.S. Degree in 1959, so I'm now the third generation of the pharmacists here in the English family in Windsor, and I believe probably we're the oldest, ah, pharmacy, ah, being in one family in Broome County.
Dan: When was it first established, Charlie?
Charlie: My grandfather took it over in April of 1900 and, ah, the same pharmacy had been operated prior to him by, ah, Dusenberry and Lyons for a few years, and prior to them, ah, by a man named T.V. Furman, who ah, also was a prominent local official, ah, politician, and ah, I don't know but what I remember, a Board, ah, member of the Board of Supervisors of Broome County, and I understand Mr. Furman, ah, went into business as a result of buying out Dr. A.B. Stillson.
Dan: Umhm.
Charlie: Doc Stillson's father.
Dan: Um.
Charlie: Doc. Stillson's.
Dan: Yeah.
Charlie: So, ah, it's been in the same locale—the drugstore’s been in the same location for about a hundred years and, ah, 78 of those years now in our family.
Dan: Umhm.
Charlie: Ah, then ah, along with this, ah, we, we bought the building—joint owners—Marine Midland Bank and myself (laughter), and ah, we rent out two apartments upstairs and we rent out another section on the ground level to, ah, the Government, for it's been a Windsor Post Office in that location for as long as I can remember. Matter of fact, ah, I guess that was the location of the Post Office way back in the 1830s—before that building existed it was still in the same spot, so ah, we haven’t changed too much.
Dan: Uh huh.
Charlie:· Ah then, ah, ah, I, ’cause, ah, I live here, ah, in what you call the Hotchkiss House or Old Stone House—I guess it’s the only stone house in Broome County, ah, to my knowledge.
Dan: Uh huh.
Charlie: And this was built sometime between 1823 and 1825 by a man named Stiles Hotchkiss. His grandfather, David, is an original pioneer for the, ah—let a tract of land here in the village of Windsor, that he received, ah, from the Government, and he came here in about 1789 and settled on this tract. He divided some of the tract up among his, ah, six or more sons—I forget how many right off hand, and of course they in turn subdivided among their sons. David Hotchkiss was, ah, credited with, ah, being the person who designed the Village of Windsor—laid out the streets, ah, much as they are today. Main Street, Chapel Street, Grove are all part of his original plan and, ah, also he's a founder of the local Presbyterian church, incidentally, the same Presbyterian church that's here today. He, his family also you might credit with the, ah, one of the families who helped found the first, ah, public school here in Windsor also. Well this stone house, incidentally, was originally built for the purpose of being a distillery, and up in back here they have a series of three falls on what is now known as Hotchkiss Creek—originally the Hotchkiss family called it Falls Creek.
Dan: Uh huh.
Charlie: And they had a mill over, ah, near the Village, ah, constructed by, ah, M. Raphael Hotchkiss, Stiles's father, and about 1825 they moved that, ah, mill over here and built here on the creek and, ah, well, according to the 1885 Broome County Histories on the purest whiskey, ah, known to man, was manufactured here, and sometime or another after that, the family did move into the house and used it jointly as both the business and as a residence.
Dan: Uh huh.
Charlie: The house is, ah, I guess what you call typical, ah, Federal period. There's two or three houses around town here that were built by, built by the Hotchkiss family. All of them, although this one is stone, there is another house down on the corner of Kent and Main, which is a wood clapboard house built on the same style, and they were copied after patterns in the Hotchkiss family up in Connecticut.
Dan: Uh huh, very interesting. Now, ah, Charlie, how did you get started in your special interest here—your Civil War memorabilia?
Charlie: Well, ah, I guess probably that results from, ah, joining the American Legion, ah. L remember, ah, when I got home from Korea in '54, ah, I been traveling for off and on, I guess about 3 weeks before I finally was able to get from the west coast to east coast due to, ah, storms and poor airplanes, as a matter of fact. When I got home, why, I went to a local barber—had a haircut, and ah, right then and there he talked me into joining the Legion, and ah, the following Memorial Day—some of the World War I vets, who for years had gone around and put flags out on the veterans’ graves all on, asked some of us newer, ah, Legionnaires if we'd go along and assist. In a sense, that was a mistake, because that first year started me on a project I've been doing every year since 1954, but we’d go around to, ah, a lot of the cemeteries here in Windsor, of which I believe there are 17 and with the exception of about 4 or 5, all of them are so-called abandoned cemeteries the town takes care of. Ah, they, ah, tombstones of some of the old Civil War veterans were beginning to fade away and became hard to read, so I became interested in, ah, making a record, and I did visit each cemetery and start copying down these names. Ended up, though, before I got done, I compiled a list of all the war veterans in the town of Windsor from the American Revolution through Korea—I haven't tackled the Vietnam era yet—and, ah, ah, then I began to do a little research on the men because I couldn't help but notice that a goodly number of the men in the Civil War, for example, either belonged to the 137th New York Volunteers, the 89th New York Volunteers, the 29th Infantry, or the 16th Independent Battery, which made me, ah, come to the realization they must have joined as a unit. Then, ah, began the historical research, and ah, the interest continually, ah, snowballed of course. The Museum, I guess, started because I decided I needed a few artifacts that maybe some of the men carried, and as a result we've gone from, ah, a couple of muskets, which I originally purchased, to, ah, the 45 by 40 building we have now to have our museum.
Dan: Uh huh—how many muskets do you have now?
Charlie: Well, I—
Dan: Just guessing, I mean, you don't have to be exact.
Charlie: I don't know—probably, ah, oh, 50 or 60 or more.
Dan: Yeah—so in other words, it's been within the last 24-year period that you have accumulated this?
Charlie: Yes, and another thing, too, about it is that, ah, a lot of people—of course, ah, the collection here, ah, due to inflation and so on and so forth, has become quite valuable. Where you used to be able to pick up a Civil War musket maybe for $25, it's at least ten times that now.
Dan: Yeah.
Charlie: And ah, I can't stress the point, ah, any stronger than that. Ah, yes, it does have monetary value, but that's not my interest—my interest is its historical value.
Dan: Right.
Charlie: I, ah, just like so many others I'm a temporary, ah, caretaker of these artifacts, and ah, after me, who knows who the next caretaker will be? But over there is a French and Indian War Brown Vest musket, for example, manufactured about 1765, and incidentally it has a Dublin Castle marking on it.
Dan: Is that right?
Charlie: Of interest to you people of Irish Descent (laughter), but I do know that musket was used in the French and Indian War, the Revolutionary War, probably the War of 1812. It was converted from percussion, from flint to percussion, about 1840, judging from the age of the hammer, and ah, it's been here in Windsor for I don't know how many years and, ah, here it is, ah, well over 200 years old, and like I say, ah, it probably had six generations of temporary caretakers.
Dan: That's terrific, that's terrific. Would you, would you, ah, hazard a guess as far as your—the monetary value today of your full collection here?
Charlie: Well, I really can't.
Dan: Have you counted it at all?
Charlie: I probably could determine it.
Dan: Just roughly.
Charlie: Well, of course another thing—I don't usually divulge, ah, ah, the general public what I think it might be worth—for insurance purposes, let us say that, ah, it's insured for approximately $60,000.
Dan: Is that right? It’s, it's wonderful. I was, I'm sure everybody that comes through here is very impressed with the extensive collection—I've never seen anything like it before.
Charlie: Well, from—there, again from the historical standpoint, ah, we do receive visitors from ah, ah, many areas that come through here that have heard about it, ah, fact, ah, here's a communication from, ah, a gentleman that is affiliated with the House of Commons of Canada, in Canada, who happens to be, like myself, a Civil War nut—he was an over-the-weekend guest with us here a couple of weeks ago, and it's surprising, here's a gentleman from Canada who, ah, knows all about Windsor, NY. He's related to the McClure's, who of course took part in the Clinton-Sullivan expedition, and ah, ah, early settlers over here just, ah, three miles up the road.
Dan: Yeah.
Charlie: Revolutionary War veteran. We have people from, ah, Virginia visit us frequently—ah, this house, in the year 1828 a man by name of Jed Hotchkiss was born, of which we have a picture or two here on the wall. Jed Hotchkiss, ah, went to his, ah, went to school here in Windsor and graduated from Virginia Academy—the one which his folks helped, ah, found, and after graduation he, ah, became a school teacher. He didn't need a college education in those day's—a High School certificate. To make a long story short, he ended up being, ah, in, a Founder of a boys’ academy at Mossy Creek, Virginia, along with a gentleman who had been one of his professors here at school, and he also, ah, ah, started another boys’ academy down there, down there near Churchville, ah, which he called Lock Willow, of which there are some pictures in the Library of Congress and the University of Virginia. Civil War broke out and his boys all enlisted in the Confederate Army and, ah, Jed Hotchkiss himself was approached by, ah, the Southern forces, ah, ah, to join them. His hobby had been for years mapmaking—his whole family around Windsor here had been surveyors and mapmakers, and some of the original roads and so on are laid out by members of his family. He did join the Confederate Army, and ah, shortly thereafter he, ah, joined them, as a civilian incidentally, ah, he was assigned and worked with Stonewall Jackson, and most of his life in service, ah, with the Confederate Officers who, ah, defended the Shenandoah Valley and, ah, he became a close personal friend of General Robert E. Lee, General Jubal Early, so on and so forth, and ah, I guess you might also say he became the unofficial, ah, Historian of Virginia, ah, ah, part in the Civil War. After the War he wrote the volume for the Confederate history on the State of Virginia and also collaborated with several other Confederate Officers who wrote histories on that, but the fact is he was born here in this house like I say in 1828, and some of his avid fans from Virginia have to make a trip up here now and then, you know, to check out his birthplace.
Dan: Uh huh. Now according to the, ah, information here about the architectural aspects of your home, it was also listed as an Underground Railroad, at one time.
Charlie: That's true, that's true.
Dan: Do you have any particulars on that at all?
Charlie: They have been unable to determine who owned the house at the time the Underground Railway was here, ah, I don't know if the Hotchkiss family still owned it or not. There is no question that there was a tunnel in our cellar—the rear of the, ah, house is a, ah, laid stone entryway with a hewn beam for a header over it, and ah, that was the entryway to the tunnel. My wife's father, who used to be a miner, is the last one that was, that I know of, that was in that tunnel. It was unsafe, so they strung wire across the entryway and then boarded it up. The tunnel left, ah, the rear of the house and came out someplace up here, ah, on the creek and, ah, every year or so we find indentations in our back lawn where something caved in and we have to fill it in, but as far as the particulars itself, all I've been able to gather is hearsay from some of the older residents around town.
Dan: Now was this—your museum—this building here, built the same time the house was?
Charlie: No, I built the museum here in 1970, and I faced it with stone in order to match the house.
Dan: That was a good idea, that was a good idea, yeah.
Charlie: This collection used to be in our cellar and we sort of outgrew the cellar.
Dan: Umhm, yeah. Of course this represents, ah, all purchases, or do you get some donations?
Charlie: Oh no, no—purchases. A lot of the items are purchased, a lot of them are donated and a few of them are on loan.
Dan: Yeah.
Charlie: And of course we carry insurance on everything regardless of whether it's ours or what, and ah, some of—it's surprising, when I first opened the museum, there was very little in here, but on the other hand, with some of the donations, when people saw it was going to be a serious venture, then they—
Dan: Then they wanted a part of it—be a part of it.
Charlie: They, they contributed.
Dan: Yeah.
Charlie: And ah, ah.
Dan: What are the hours that you're open, Charlie?
Charlie: Well usually, ah, since I have to be at the drugstore a good share of the time, ah, it's open mainly on weekends.
Dan: Weekends.
Charlie: And, ah, I advise a lot of the people who are interested in seeing it, ah, if they will contact me at the store, make an appointment, I will be glad to open it for them evenings or whenever it is convenient for both of us, but other than that I say, primarily during good weather—the weekends.
Dan: Yeah, yeah. Ah, getting back to your pharmacy, ah, did you notice a, quite a change, as far as the dispensing of prescriptions from the date of your dad and your grandfather up to the present date? In other words, there wasn't the repackaged generic and, ah, packaging there is today, but you really had to mix your own drugs.
Charlie: That's true, and ah, when I was a youngster, I used to help my dad and grandfather—we used to make up, ah, ah, liniment for the athletic squad at the school, you know, and it was done by hand and, ah, ah, there were very few things that were not compounded. I remember when things like achromycin and terramycin came out and what a marvelous thing it was to add a little water to a bottle, shake it up, but ah, ah, ‘course today, we have, ah, medicine you couldn't buy for any kind of money—some of it as long as ten years ago, and as granted, there isn't much compounding, but on the other hand I don't think my dad or my grandfather, either one, would be very happy with, ah, today's, ah, method of operating a pharmacy. Ah, a lot of that I blame on the government, but it's, ah, ah, there's as much paperwork or more than is the actual work that, ah, you do along the line of pharmacy, and ah, there’s a great deal of regulations that never existed even ten years ago that, ah, it may be good, I don't know, but ah, I personally feel there's too much government interference, not only in my business but everybody else—so some politician can perpetuate his job, you know. (Laughter).
Dan: Right—ah, going up the road a little ways, ah, the road to Ouaquaga, are you acquainted very much with the Shaker Barn?
Charlie: Yes.
Dan: The Shaker Sect—how long ago were they, ah, active?
Charlie: Ah, I would guess, ah, probably the latter part of, ah, the last century was their high point here in Windsor. Matter of fact this stone house, I find in some of the records, was ah, the mortgage was held by the Shakers when they were here. There's a man, I believe his name is Levi Shaw, who was a Shaker who operated a sawmill right down here, ah, near the river bridge, and ah, they all tied in together.
Dan: Uh huh.
Charlie: Ah, the ah, Shaker Museum, incidentally, in ah, Chatham, New York, now, ah, Gary Hinman, ah, is, ah, working up there, and he's tied in a few strings that were loose here, regarding the Shaker history.
Dan: Yeah, yeah—it's very interesting. Do you happen to know what the significance is of having an entrance and an exit to the Shaker Barn?
Charlie: Matter of fact, I don't. Do you? (Laughter).
Dan: No I don't. I saw it mentioned, you know, or ah, read about it mentioned someplace, and I just wondered what the significance was. It was probably part of their religious background, you know?
Charlie: No I don't.
Dan: Do you have any children, Charlie?
Charlie: Oh yes, we have, ah, a boy who is eighteen, then we have a girl that is eleven and a boy that is, ah, ten.
Dan: Uh huh.
Charlie: And of course the, ah, our oldest son's out on his own, so to speak, now—he went to BOCES and learned plumbing and heating, and ah, he’s doing quite well with that.
Dan: That’s, that’s a good trade.
Charlie: Then, ah, my younger ones here—they're my helpers, you know, here at the museum—yeah, when we need the glass cleaned.
Dan: Do you hope to get a pharmacist out of one of them?
Charlie: I don't know—to tell you truthly, I'd like to discourage it.
Dan: You'd like to discourage it?
Charlie: Uh huh. I can't, ah, I don't care if it's pharmacy or whether it's buying a new car or what—consumerism is a big thing today, and ah, I think it's nice that, ah, people are able to buy things as economically as possible, but on the other hand I think the—not only the American workman but the, I suppose the workmanship from our friends across the seas, is terrible.
Dan: Yeah.
Charlie: You, yourself, probably back in 1936—if you bought a new car, it lasted you ten years or twelve years, right.
Dan: They're only built to last a couple of years.
Charlie: They're built to sell, period, and the same way in, ah, the ah, pharmacy business, ah, everything is aimed at consumerism, not quality.
Dan: Right, right—yeah, I know my, my car is rusting out and it's only a ‘73.
Charlie: Oh that’s, I, ah, I don't think I would encourage my son to be a retail pharmacist—maybe if he wanted to be a pharmacist in another field.
Dan: Yeah.
Charlie: There's too much competition, too much junk for sale.
Dan: Right, right, it's no longer a drug store—perfect example is Eynon—call themselves Eynon Drugs and sell everything.
Charlie: Yeah, true.
Dan: Well, is there anything else of interest that you think you would like to add on to this, ah, interview, Charlie, before I terminate it?
Charlie: Well, I can't think of any.
Dan: What clubs do you belong to?
Charlie: Oh gee, let's see. I'm trying to get out of things instead of get in them, ah, always like that. I've been a member of the American Legion, member of Chamber of Commerce here, ah, I ah, worked with the Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts, in fact, I'm on the, presently on a Boy Scout committee here. I guess at one time or another I belonged to almost every organization we've had in town. Church groups, ah, and Civic and, ah, now they do have the museum. I try to, ah, spend a little more time here and a little less time out, ah, in some of the organizations, ah, and ah, along of course, Fire Company, and ah I'm still a part-time policeman here, we have a—
Dan: Oh, are you helping out John Gray?
Charlie: Yeah, I do that, and ah, ah, ‘course I've been Town Clerk, too, for—I've been in the Town Clerk's office, so to speak, as a Deputy or Town Clerk for 25 years now. That takes a little time also.
Dan: Yes, yes.
Charlie: So I limit my outside activities. I really enjoy the museum and, ah, especially the Civil War part and the part that Broome County men played, and ah, I can completely lose all my problems or cares I might then, I have had during the day by getting involved in this business of Broome County History.
Dan: It’s wonderful, that's great, yeah. Well, I certainly appreciate your taking the time off, Charlie, to permit me to come up and interview you.
Charlie: By the way, I was just going to mention it—we were talking a little while ago about, ah, the immigrants idea and so on, so forth, established here, and this is a tidbit of Civil War history you might not know. You know where the IBM homestead is now?
Dan: Umhm.
Charlie: Well, that belonged to my great-grandfather Eli Crocker.
Dan: Is that right?
Charlie: OK, that was his farm. Now the fellow he sold it to is the one that, ah, apparently bought the—sold the land to IBM for their Country Club, because Eli never got a thing out of it—my grandmother was born down that way.
Dan: Is that right?
Charlie: And, ah, if you recall, a couple of years ago Tom Cawley had an article in his column in the Binghamton Press here, the tree that was cut for the keel of the Monitor—that, ah, in the Battle of the Monitor and the Merrimac, came from this area. Well it was Eli's farm that shipped that lumber up the canal down the Hudson River to Brooklyn Navy Yard, you know, when the keel of the Monitor, but ah.
Dan: Very interesting.
Charlie: I just thought that was a little, little sidelight from there.
Dan: Yeah that's great, great—those little sidelights you don't find in history books.
Charlie: Eli, incidentally, you know he joined the 8th Regiment in Broome County, and he had a manservant, negro—you know, wasn't a slave, manservant. OK—they called him Old Bay Tom, and, ah, funny part of it was, Old Bay Tom enlisted too, and I have a picture of him over here in his Civil War uniform, Negro. I don't know what Regiment he belonged to, I've never been able to find out—that was never in the Family Bible or anything, right—I imagine probably the 54th Massachusetts—that was one of the first Negro Regiments, but ah, one ironic thing about Old Bay Tom was, after he came back to the Binghamton area, he ran for Mayor of Binghamton.
Dan: Is that right?
Charlie: He knew that he didn't have a chance of winning, you know, but ah, just the idea of, probably, it was the first case of a, of a negro, ah, taking a step forward, asserting himself, trying to get in something that was, ah, a white man's haven, you know, and he drew a lot of votes, believe it or not.
Dan: You don't recall what year that was, do you?
Charlie: I did know, but I can't recall right now. Fact, I think there is a painting of this gentleman either down at the Courthouse or down at Roberson Memorial now.
Dan: Uh huh.
Charlie: But very few people knew that he was a candidate for Mayor of Binghamton, I guess in the 1870s.
Dan: 1870s—that’s great.
Charlie: But, ah, we got a couple other—that picture up in the corner, incidentally, Colonel Walton Dwight—remember, heard of him?
Dan: No, no.
Charlie: Remember when, ah, a couple of weeks ago, they had an article about those, ah, buildings on upper Front Street? They’re falling down—they weren't fit for even the welfare families.
Dan: Oh yeah—Dwight Block, you mean.
Charlie: Dwight Block.
Dan: Yeah.
Charlie: Ah, this Walton Dwight was the Mayor of Binghamton, and that was his home up in there, see. That, oh gee, that was a fabulous place. Well, Walton Dwight originally came from Windsor, West Windsor, and he wanted to become an Officer in the Union Army, and ah, of course they appointed a lot of their Officers, right. So he applied to New York State, but they wouldn't give him a Regiment so he went down here below Great Bend, in Pennsylvania, and they—he went into the lumber business. Well, it ended up that he and a whole bunch of lumberjacks signed up to get in and they got a Commission off of Governor Curtin in Pennsylvania, and they went in as the 2nd Pennsylvania Bucktails. Mr. Dwight, ah, became, ah, almost an instant hero ‘cause shortly after he, ah, became an Officer, he got involved in the Battle of Gettysburg and he got shot in the arm on the first day of the Battle—so naturally he goes to the hospital and all this, and he comes back, wounded hero in the Battle of Gettysburg, big thing, he comes back to the Binghamton area and they have the parades and everything and parade him around, what a wonderful fellow he is, you know, and sooner or later, ah, he got talked into running for Mayor and he became the Mayor of Binghamton. According, there again, to some history books, ah, while he was Mayor of Binghamton he ran into a number of financial difficulties—some of it was public money and, ah, but the big thing he did when he was Mayor of Binghamton—it seemed the Great Chicago Fire occurred during his term. He's very famous for the amount of money he was able to raise in Binghamton to send to the fire victims out in Chicago.
Dan: Is that right?
Charlie: Umhm.
Dan: That’s very interesting, and now the Dwight Block, they're thinking about tearing that down—moving all the tenants out of it.
Charlie: That's right, and that was his, that was a very prominent place in Binghamton history at one time.
Dan: Well, Charlie, can I play this back for you?
Charlie : Sure.
Dan: OK.
",,,,"34:08 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Charles English",,,,1978-04-28,,"Broome County Oral History Project","English, Charles -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Pharmacists -- Interviews; United States -- History -- Civil War, 1861-1865; Underground Railroad; Windsor (N.Y.); Korean War, 1950-1953; Harpur College; Hotchkiss Family; Jed Hotchkiss; Eli Crocker; Windsor, NY Town Clerk",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/44cf1868c0a73d274d41c27c5b6a6e3d.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/898e5159bc723767c3e6bb75a65af16d.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/64f3c706d9691e069a779340585e5bfc.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e7567424b4f21145f9dfd048f1e6debf.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6940638a26fb6454d9c90121e839c6c7.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6c2ca31d98ec621c95a28c902f8319a9.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/08f52bb030e25f8a9fa07514ea91de2a.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/73787239e48867d387f573ed87213471.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/48b57d7f8bd889be44b1d0205568d3bd.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fa6f6ba3109e7178c2ae1ef0852fc555.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5a1d8f5af2e8e26e9e1ef7a01cc87fe2.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/01e5701f5f8a44734ab2250227c8ae3c.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0fd22cfff8cbf97b2e87e3b3acd9d759.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/10cc20e98c05a5ec4d76d994bf8db236.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/63deded3f7c90834699cdc00f7193792.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e6ef1cab09390bb78d5c8769dde89e2a.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/25821fb6fe0c54b12f91d2f50edecd42.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 466,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/466,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"32:32 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Mrs. Clara Bell",,"Bell, Clara ; Dobandi, Susan",,audio/mp3,"Bell, Clara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Authors -- Interviews; Hawleyton (N.Y.); Cavalry Church; Poetry","Clara Bell talks about her childhood growing up in Hawleyton, NY on a farm with her family. She discusses the hardship of her parents' declining health and the importance of the church in her life, as well as her experience in college and desire to become a writer and poet. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-05-01,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 2",,"Dobandi, Susan","Bell, Clara",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Clara Bell
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 1 May 1978
Susan: Mrs. Bell, could you tell us, ah, where you were born, something about your parents, and any work experiences that you've had in the community, and any of your recollections of your childhood?
Mrs. Bell: I was born in Hawleyton, just this side of the Pennsylvania line, the seventh child in the family, born to a mother that was really an invalid that shouldn't have borne a child at that time, and we lived on a farm. I was born in ’88—1888, and ah, we were what would be considered poor—people, we really did have hand-me-downs that would help us. One year I had to be kept from school because there wasn't a proper coat, warm coat, for me to wear, and but, it was a kind home but a very poor home, and I think my father and mother tried always to cover up the poorness of it and dwell on the richness of it, and there was a heap of richness there, when you look over other homes today. And I was a unwanted child and a homely little runt of a child and born to people that had some nice-looking children, but very early in life I began to feel the consciousness of God, and I hope nobody misunderstands that, it's nothing freakish at all, but it was the sense of God and the dependence upon Him, and there was really nothing in the home life that would have made me that way, but I was very conscious of it. I still remember the lay of the land and the spring in the pasture lot and to put things, every contour of that place. It seemed as though God was in it with me, and I think that He must have known that I needed Him so much, because I was naturally a sour disposition child and my mother just could not—she could not feel towards me, and that's a mother’s life, and so—love, and so that has made me think that perhaps that had something to do with the queer child that I was, and ah, when I—I went to Sunday school with neighbors and wanted to join the church, and I told my parents that I—that I wanted to join the church, well, they told me that there would be a time when I was old enough but the time wasn't yet for me to join, so that was all right with me—and I can remember reading the Bible and the scorn of my eighteen-year-old brother because I was reading a Bible, because of course he had no use for such a thing. By the way, I did have five sisters and, uh, one very dear to me like a mother and, uh, it was so beautiful that at the time that I joined the church, which doesn't mean becoming a, a Christian at all, but it does to many people’s mind, but not to mine. My mother had the feeling, well, if one of her children joined the church, and I will say if one of my children accepted the Lord—Mother felt that she should, and I as a child was so ashamed that I didn't love her, and I didn't love her and I had no reason to feel that she loved me, but my mother joined the church, but my mother became a Christian, and if nobody else believes in Christianity I would have to for the change that was in my mother, and she and I, over and over again, have thanked the Lord together that he spared her that time and we had that mother-daughter experience. It was beautiful for quite a few years and she meant so much to me.
My people—because of father's failing health, and mother's, of course—had been, we moved to Binghamton when I was sixteen years old and, ah, my, ah, father was a janitor in the school here, not able to do that work at all, and I fought desperately to get work of some kind. I may have had a foolish pride to be ashamed of, but I—I still know the roots of it. I couldn't bring myself to go into one of the shops. It didn't seem as though it belonged some way to me, and so there was a twitter-twitter—well, my sister told me that her husband would lend me the money, if I wanted it, to go through business college, so I did, and very foolishly, which is up to my way of thinking. When the time was up there was no offer made to me to get a job, so I just simply left without interviewing the man who was head of the thing at all.
Well I—one of the women who had gone through girls with the school with me, she said, “If I find a job at all that you can do,” why, she said, “I will let you know.” She did—she found a job in the, ah—ah, bookkeeping branch of the shoe factory here and she let me know, and at the same time she did, my mother said, found out that my sister in Deposit—her husband was bookkeeper at the Outing Publishing Company—she was ill, and my mother said that was my duty to go there and so I went and, ah, then in three months Outing moved to New York and, ah, many people went with it, but I—I came home then and, ah—was engaged to be married at that time, and so by—I took in washings to earn the money for I couldn't get a job and my mother was too ill to leave, and I was married in April and, ah, in three years and about a half, the Lord blessed our home with a little girl who was so very dear and precious to us, and we had her for forty-two years but the Lord has taken her home, and she was the wife of a pastor who established a camp in Michigan, and then, ah, ten years afterwards, I always said that I'd like to have six little girls but I wouldn't want any boys at all, but the Lord sent me a little boy, and oh, I never knew the treasure that had been withheld from me, and I can say it today, he will be fifty-eight tomorrow. He has been one of the greatest blessings of my life. He is pastor of a church in Cincinnatus and he has—I think that we are compatible, let me say. Life looks funny to us, at times ridiculously so, and yet we love the Lord so dearly.
Well in my life, after my husband died and, ah, twelve years ago I had—we had a home in Port Dickinson, and oh, we had a lovely, lovely lot—extra lot, and lovely flowers and shrubs, I had, and I worked until I was too weary to enjoy it and I so I decided to come here to the Fairview Home, and one of the greatest blessings that I have found since being here, and I have found a heap of them, is: I am not afraid anymore. I was born a coward if there ever was one. There were breakings-in all around me when I was home and there was nothing that gave me that sense of security, even though we put on these aluminum screens, I thought nobody could get in—well, people did get in, so I came to Fairview. There is some people that would say they were false in Fairview and, ah, I don't have to acknowledge it so I'm not going too. I have found great blessing in this home. I have found kindness. I have broken my hip, fractured my hip, and I have broken my wrist and the joint in it and I had to be in the infirmary here, which, many people say they would rather die than go into the infirmary, into the—in the infirmary I found more granddaughters and they were just so good to me, and yet today when I see them, there is just that warmth feeling about it, and while I can say that I can see improvements, I couldn't be critical because I have been treated so kindly and the Lord is with me, and I feel that I am one of the most fortunate people in the world and I praise the Lord for it, because he has gone with me through some pretty deep troubled waters, but He has always been there and led me out and on and it's good—it's good.
I can't see the advisability of the Lord leaving me here. I thought when I came here I would be able to go to the infirmary and help and bless some lives there, maybe, and I, now I don't do any of those things, I go with a walker, oh, once in a while I get down there, I love the folks there, but I don't see where there is one particle of use of me taking up the place on the earth that I do. I have thought, now it's so near the time, I would like to wait ’til I was ninety, but after that I don't dare to tell the Lord that I think so, I think it's the time for me to be taken, because I am a useless person, really, as far as being a blessing to anybody else—oh, I wanted to do such things. I wanted to go through college. I wanted to write and I wanted—you see, the Lord couldn't trust me with that—I probably would have gotten very cocky and puffed up and all of that—he had to keep me down—but oh, He has been down with me and He has been up with me. The Lord is to be praised.
Susan: Tell us about the poetry that you write.
Mrs. Bell: About—beg your pardon?
Susan: The poetry.
Mrs. Bell: Oh—well, that was a was a happy outlet even in my childhood, and ah—of writing poetry—and then in Binghamton I was—oh, I had a poem published by Lucia Trent and in her western anthology. I don't know how I ever got the idea of sending there. There must have been something in my head or something that made me send it, and that was accepted, which was a real puff to my vanity, and there was a write-up in our paper and a picture of me and another woman who had two anthology poems, well, that had brought me to the notice of our local poetry class that Miss Herrick, a retired English teacher at high school, was established that, and so I went to that and of course I learned a great deal and awaited to write more properly, perhaps, but it was—it was a great pleasure as long as it—I think it just disbanded if I remember, or for some reason I had to give it up, but it has been a pleasure and a few, well, the course and the class, she sent out our work a good deal to colleges, in their books or whatever they call them, and we had quite a few published in them and then I had, I was very fond of Woody Magazine because both of my children went through school, and I had two poems there and—and some other places, some other, mostly Christian magazines they had been, but I think that my writing has tended to be along the line of nature very much—very much and it hasn't been anything sumptuous, but I shall always feel that if it had been the Lord's will for me to have had an education that I could have written for, I had the feeling I have the in and He's blessed me, perhaps, with an appreciation that they don't all people feel. That's just—just splendid to see who has—has, ah, written and who has arrived and can do it, and so I have been wonderfully blessed by them.
Susan: Could we go back to when you were a little girl, uh, and see the changes in the community, uh, as far as transportation, the way you were brought up?
Mrs. Bell: We lived two miles from the school and we lived up a dirt road and, ah, that was real steep over half of the way there and, so that we—when wintertime, often times it would be with great difficulty that we would get to school, and once in a while we would have a hired man that would come for us when it was impossible to get home, and—ah, we—we learned the reading, writing, and arithmetic, and I had dear teachers that helped me, ah, in my desire for more.
Susan: It was probably a one room schoolhouse, wasn't it?
Mrs. Bell: Yes, uh huh, and, ah, so that one teacher very kindly offered to stay on in the school and teach tenth grade, which she didn't have to do, and she did and I was, I had my certificate for having passed that, and then that is the formal education that this poor soul has had, but in Heaven I'm going to be one of the smartest women there, and we did have a—a yoke of oxen in my childhood and, ah, they were larger than any of the others that I saw at the time—very large red steers, I called them red and, ah, but they, my, ah, they seemed to adore my father, and I think he did them, and they'd be so obedient to him, but he would leave me to—to ride them—to sit by them while he went for an errand or to get a drink, and I would be so frightened I can feel it yet, those great oxen would no more have paid attention to that peeping weaning voice than anything under the sun, and most of our neighbors, I think, had more of this world’s goods than we did, but I do think much of our—I can't say “poverty,” because we were not poverty people at all, because there was too much within and people coming and living in our home and coming—coming to us so much, but—there was peace and goodness and joy in our home, and I lost my train of thought that I was on, and that's what ninety years old does to you.
Susan: Well, you're doing very well.
Mrs. Bell: And, ah, so that, ah, we had—we had such a desire for a, what they call a platform wagon, that was a good size larger than a carriage and, ah, but we never had the money to get it, so if we had to be, a need for something like that, we had to use a lumber wagon and, ah, I know that a ride in that lumber wagon and look down on those horses scared the liver right out of me as a kid. It seemed as though I was up as high as Heaven and they were elephants or something, and ah, that was the way we were then, and finally my people were able to get a horse, one horse, and in time my brother came back home and they got two more horses, and things moved more swiftly, but not better—not better at all, I think it was a leading of what was coming to town, and my brother-in-laws got a gramophone—gramophone, I think it was called. Oh, we just swarmed that house, every night we'd go, and we were so thrilled with that, it was so wonderful, and then another brother became affluent enough to, ah, buy a Ford car and that was just—just immense to us. In—I was—I had been a member of Calvary Church for nearly sixty years and through those years from the time I was sixteen until, oh, maybe—maybe I better say ten years ago, don't think it was that long—I taught Sunday school and from every grade onward. I even caught—taught a college choir—class, ignorant as I am, and enjoyed them, and ah, there was so many things in the church you can do and love to do and people to love, and I—that was a dear church and is a dear church, but there is difference in the church I was in, things progress. I learn, everything progresses, but old women, ninety years old, they don't progress, but it's good—it's good. I have no feeling of regret. I had such a desire to be good looking, and I was such a homely child and always had been, and I had some beautiful sisters but it just didn't happen to Mother, the seventh child they tell about as favorite, but this one wasn't much in health, and to think—to think I had so much to thwart my growing up and my strength, and I'm the only one of those other children who are living, and the husbands and wives are gone too. Even now the nieces and nephews are going, some, and still the Lord is having me stay on here. It's His will and His will is good, must be. I would never quite dare to ask him, “Lord, please take me out of my body and take me home.” I just don't quite think it's the thing to do. He has got the program He knows and it's very wise that He doesn't let us know.
Susan: No, it would be very difficult to get through from one day to the next if we knew what was ahead of us.
Mrs. Bell: It surely would—it surely would. I do pray to the Lord, if it's His will, that I shall never have any more broken bones. They are difficult in a way, but you know, the way the Lord went with me through those hard yields is just unbelievable, and even now this sounds boastful, too, dear, but this is the Lord I'm boasting—in the, when I was in this insumary [sic]—infirmary, the—the nurses did praise the progress that I made, they thought it was remarkable and, ah, once in a while a dear one just doesn't try, and that is too bad.
Susan: Well thank you very much, Mrs. Bell, for taking the time to talk with us. Is there anything more that you would like to add to this interview?
Mrs: Bell: No, I don't think so. Only if I may add this—I wish that everyone who might ever hear this would love the Lord and depend on Him as much as He's caused me to depend on Him.
Susan: Thank you.
",,,,"32:32 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Mrs. Clara Bell",,,,1978-05-01,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Bell, Clara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Authors -- Interviews; Hawleyton (N.Y.); Cavalry Church; Poetry",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/500ade25491ee66ea64f6a2c83693d96.pdf,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/50a3a941c5076b4b54f360d0cd5e4de4.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9884896bf5ee8132e0143ba7f0948428.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 524,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/524,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"47:47 Minutes ; 26:22 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Helen Land ",,"Land, Helen ; Caganek, Anna",,"audio/mp3 ","Land, Helen -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Electrification; Citizenship; Trolley cars; Bennett Family; Recreation Park; Ross Park; Dance class","Helen Land talks about her birth and upbringing in Binghamton, NY and how the town has changed over the years. She reminisced about growing up in Binghamton, and discusses taking dance classes, attending church picnics, family outings, and attending school. She talks about the Bennett Family, Ross Park, Recreation Park, old trolley cars, electrification in homes, local businesses, hotels, entertainment, and mentions various people of Binghamton. She also discusses her marriage to a man from Canada and losing her citizenship, and her difficulty in getting her citizenship back.",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-05-01,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 40A ; Recording 40B ",,"Caganek, Anna","Land, Helen",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Helen Land
Interviewed by: Anna Caganek
Date of interview: 1 May 1978
Anna: Mrs. Land, tell me experiences.
Mrs. Land: I was born in Binghamton, NY, 20th of June 1897 at Mill St. I lived there for a few months because the landlord had stipulated that he won't have no children—I think I was very vocal, so then we were asked to find some other place to move. We moved to Walnut St. and there my mother died when I was one year and a half old (1 ½ years) and from there I moved to Lincoln Ave. where my father and I lived with my father's brother and his wife and three children.
His wife was a saint to take a year and a half old child in there with her three children and bring me up. I lived on Lincoln Ave. until I was 18 years old, and at that time I had gone to St. John Ave. School up to the 4th grade—then I transferred to Laurel Ave. school which is now Horace Mann. I had gone there to the 8th grade and then I had traveled to Binghamton Central High School where I had my freshman, sophomore years—and from there I went over to my junior and senior years which were spent at the Washington St. School which is now the Police Station, I believe while they were building the new building, which is now the old building.
I just, guess I just led the normal life of a high school girl and everything was very, very circumspect in those days. We had street cars but we didn't patronize them—we walked back and forth—if you had only a couple miles to walk, you didn't bother with streetcars. Our entertainments were very mild. We had parties in the evening but they were strictly supervised—they were generally in homes of our friends, from eight ’til maybe ten o'clock at night. On weekends we were lucky—we could go to Ross Park and see the entertainment over there. They, it was sponsored by the Street Railway Company. It was a beautiful park, up there—they had benches all up in the woods and it was desirable to get there early so you would get a good seat. The benches would hold six to eight people—then there was another bench for our feet, everything was very comfortable. The vaudeville acts—there would be six or seven of them—and they were really very first class entertainment—it was things that people later on became prominent in movies and I think it was probably before any of them became television stars—but, they, we did get some of the movies, also, the Casino was under the sponsorship—was owned by the City Railway. That was a lovely place to go, but that cost more, it was twenty five cents round trip—to go to Ross Park it was only a nickel, one way and we, I was married quite young and we had very nice places to go then to eat. We had our, my friends and I would go to the various places for lunch. I remember Fowler’s had the most beautiful lunch for 60¢, you wouldn't believe it—there was no tipping there and you could go and you could go and get a chicken salad and homemade rolls and butter and homemade chocolate cake. Fowler’s was famous for Emily Napp’s chocolate cake. The Arlington Hotel had a lovely dining room—the Bennett Hotel had a very nice dining room and there was a very nice place known, as the Grill on Washington Street—it was upstairs over the Walter Miller Store. It was a very small place, but the food was excellent and the people use to like to go there after they’ve been to the theater at night.
We had very good entertainment here—it wasn’t every night—it wasn’t like a movie or anything like that. We had Sousa's band, would come here and Walter Damrosch's band—they appeared at the old Stone Opera House and it was quite a nice place to go and very well patronized. When I was in high school there was a dancing class conducted at the Monday Afternoon Club by Professor Lamoreaux and his wife on Thursday afternoon. The girls came with silk stockings on and they carried their dancing in bags because we didn’t dance in the same shoes that we had worn to school—but, you always knew when it was dancing lesson day because the girls changed from the Buster Brown ribbed lyle stockings to silk stockings, and that was a very nice to go—you bought a ticket from them, I think it was $6.00 for 12 lessons—you sat around the floor, there—Mrs. Lamoureaux saw that there were no wallflowers—you would sit there hoping somebody would ask you to dance, and he would be chasing after the most popular girl—Mrs. Lamoureaux would come after him and make him come and dance with you—he was a little reluctant to do—but as I say it was a very quiet period in which to live and there was no, as I remember, there was no vandalism, no anything, people sat on front porches at night—called back and forth across the street to the neighbors, there was no familiarity.
We lived in the same neighborhood, as I say, I've lived these for 18 years, as I say there was no moving—everybody owned his own home there, but there was no familiarity, always addressed your neighbors as Mr. and Mrs.—never said, “Hello, Fred,” or, “Hello, Minnie”—it was always, “Mr. and Mrs. Barnum.” We also got in on all the church picnics because there was a very a large church membership, there was Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists and then, one family of Universalists moved in the neighborhood—they were looked down on because they mowed their lawn on Sunday, and that was not considered the thing to do. You mowed your lawn through the week—you did not mow it on Sunday—but we found out they were good Christian people. The father was a lawyer and he was President of the Board of Education so we decided that maybe mowing the lawn on Sunday was not a Cardinal Sin but we got in all on all the church picnics because we would interchange and you would go to the Lutheran Picnic and in turn you would ask them to come to your Presbyterian Picnic and that way our summers were very nicely taken care of. We played croquet in the afternoon and we went skating. There was a skating rink over on Conklin Ave.—it was called Lyons Skating Rink and although we lived on Lincoln Ave. that was probably a good two mile walk to Lyons Skating Rink, it might have been longer, but we always walked—we would never think of taking a streetcar and transfer going up there and sometimes we would go twice a day—we would go on Saturday—we'd go in the morning and for 15¢ you could get a very nice ham sandwich and a bottle of ginger ale, they also, the people who owned Lyons Skating Rink, ran the George Hull Ice Cream Company and Confectionery Store on Court St. but we seldom spent 15¢. We would walk home and get our dinner and then walk back again in the afternoon. Our entertainments were not expensive but they were really very enjoyable.
I have one daughter and two grandchildren and one great-grandchild. I have enjoyed having them brought up in the same neighborhood that I was, for as I went to St. John Ave. School, that had turned into Alexander Hamilton, when they went there—they followed us by going to West Junior, which was not in existence when I was young. I had gone to Horace Mann, but then they went to Central High School and my daughter went to Sweet Briar College. My grandson went to Wittenberg College in Ohio. My granddaughter went to Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs and I have one great-grandchild. We are all living approximately the same area that we did when we were brought up and that is very nice because, I have forgotten the generation has gone by so quickly. I think, I really say, I knew your grandmother well, then I'd say it was your great-grandmother that I knew, that I was in school with. My husband died in 1948 and I had my own apartment until I just felt a little inadequate to coping with that. I was fortunate enough to be admitted in the Good Shepherd Fairview Home. I was still ambulatory and able to take care of my own room and make my own bed and change my own bed and I'm getting marvelous care and treatment here, I have a beautiful room, nobody could really find any fault with it. I am a very happy, 80 year old great-grandmother who’s about to be 81. It has not been a very productive life, but it has been an extremely happy one.
I used to go to my grandfather's in Greene. Father took me up there every Sunday on the Utica Train and we would leave here, early in the morning, sometimes very early in the morning, and I can remember traveling with the minimum of fare until I was about seven years old. One day the conductor said to my father, ""How old is that child?” Father said, ""Seven.” You'll have to pay, half fare for her now—then when I got to be 12 or 13 they discovered that I should be paying full fare. My maternal grandmother, grandfather lived on Wilson St. Father used to take me there Sunday afternoons to call on him. We used to have to cross the railroad tracks at Jarvis St. and I was terrified of those tracks. I don't know how many tracks there were—seems to me there were 8 or 10 of them there. I don't suppose there were that many, but there was a flagman there at Jarvis St., and he, if there was a train coming or going, he would come out with his little flag and wave it. I was not very speedy, I was bowlegged, and it was very hard for me to run and when we got half across I wanted to stay with the flagman until all the flags were clear. We went to Lily Lake which is now State Park—before the days of automobiles, you hired a horse and buggy from Seamon's or Sigler's Delivery Stables and sometimes, there were, I believe there were two four seated ones, but you had to get your name in early if you wanted the four seated ones—you took your whole family up to Lily Lake or a picnic and you took all equivalents for a beautiful picnic up there.
There were no colleges here in Binghamton, such as the Broome Community College and State University but Cortland Normal was near and Oneonta Normal wasn't too far. My mother was a graduate of Oneonta Normal—she taught school—my grandmother, my maternal grandmother taught school. My paternal grandmother went to Cazenovia Seminary and she never taught school. They must have given them a wonderful education in the little school they had then but I suppose the Cazenovia Seminary School was equivalent to a prep school—today a boarding school, because she was certainly a very literate woman and a very accomplished artist. I had no skills, whatsoever. I've always said that if my mother had lived I would have learned to cook and to sew and to do everything because according to legend, my mother was very clever. I always meet with the retort, “but I guess if you wanted to you could have learned how.” Apparently, I let someone else do it for me. I lived a good long life letting somebody else do things, and I'm continuing to do so.
Anna: What did your husband do?
Mrs. Land: He was the Secretary of Kilmer and Co-Secretary of Binghamton Press—also, he was a Canadian. I did have one jolting experience. I did not know, well in fact, it wasn't true when I married him I didn't lose my American citizenship, although he was a Canadian citizen. L went to be a character witness back in 1940, I guess for a Canadian who wanted to get her American citizenship. I found out I lost my citizenship in marrying an Canadian—I protested vigorously and I had stapled to my Marriage Certificate a notice in the paper that people marrying friendly aliens between April 1917 and October 1922 did not lose their citizenship. I had married at that time—I had been married in October 1917 which gave me a perfectly clear footing but that ruling had been rescinded so, I was voting illegally but I didn't it know it, so, I had to go and be repatriated to the hilarity of all my friends. I think they thought my husband was a Secretary of the Press, they thought it was a good joke to put great big headlines that I was repatriated and all of my friends came to me and said, ""What do you mean? You were born here, how come you had to be repatriated?"" Miss Eleanor Smith, who was the County Clerk at that time, said, ""Don't feel so badly, there are many people voting illegally, they don't realize that the law was rescinded."" I said, “Well, it certainly humiliated me very much,” publicized that, as I say I've had a very—
At the time I was born was the one, I think McKinley had just come into the office. I remember, although I was between three and four, I think, he was assassinated in 1901. This was before I went to school but I can remember all the publicity about it. Of course, before the days of television and radio and things of that sort, but there were pictures in the newspaper and the assassin had worn his hands wrapped up in a handkerchief. We went around the neighborhood with our hands wrapped in a handkerchief and banged, banged at everybody around there before we went to school. I say, I've been a lifelong Republican, but I'm a kind of freelancer—I vote more for the man than I do for the party. I've been that way all my life.
Anna: Can you think of anything else?
Mrs. Land: My daughter has been active in all the things I didn't do, she seems to have done. I was on the board of the Girl's Club for many years and I enjoyed that—I was on the health board on YWCA and to the amusement of my family, I was also on the Municipal Recreation Board, they never could understand why I was on that. I was on the, that Family Children Services and I've enjoyed all of these because they were my friends, who were on the boards, and we all thought alike. I've seen many of the people come and go, and here I have many friends, there are 19 members from my church in this home where I live now, the West Presbyterian Church, there are 19 members here. The Circle came the other day and put out a lovely tea for us. I was surprised, to find there was so many members here, but we are really kind of like a family here, and didn't—people said, “It will take you a long time to adjust.” It wasn't a question of adjusting, because I knew many people in here, and I, just felt how lucky I was to have my meals prepared for me, and, cleaning and to have everything done for me.
My daughter and grandchildren are very active in the church. They live here, my great-grandson is the 7th generation, in that, church and anyway my daughter is a member here at Fairview. Today, the receptionists came in and brought me a dear little wicker basket, saying, “Happy May Time, Dear Grandma Land,” from one of the Board members whom I love dearly, friend of my daughter’s, Mrs. Williams. Mrs. Williams always remembers to bring me little things, seasonal things. She brought me a beautiful bouquet of forsythias before anyone else got the snow off their bushes, and I watched that flower blossom.
Father was born in Smithville Flats and although he had, apparently, only a—the schooling from the Village School, he was, an extremely literate man. He, I'm amazed because his formal education, must have been very limited, but he was an appreciative man. He would appreciate the art, and he always saw that I had the, very best reading material and also being an only child he indulged me, in my sartorial department. I always had beautiful clothes, I think he probably deprived himself to get me all decked out to go. He was 85 and you see he was only 30 years old when Mother died. And he had never remarried, he devoted his life to raising me. And he had the time when he and Mother were married, he was Superintendent of the Prudential Insurance in Oneonta.
I never did know why he came to Binghamton, they came, here before I was born. They were married in 1893 and 1897 I was born. After they came back here he was working for the Prudential as an sgent for, a while, but I think Father never found out what he really wanted to be. I think had Mother lived she would have stirred him more. He was a clerk in a grocery store. Oh I remember that—we never mentioned money, it seemed vulgar to talk about prices of things—but I remember my uncle saying to my father who was, 8 years his junior, “Fred, what did you pay for that coat of Helen’s?” And Father would say, “20 dollars.” My father at that time was making 12 dollars a week and then he got a raise for 14 dollars. He was always very thrifty, very. However when Walter Damrosch or Sousa's Band came here those tickets were 3 dollars, apiece, and he always took me to all the concerts that came along. How he managed it I don’t know but he was a wonderful thrifty man and he could not stand charge accounts, he thought those were the, invention of the devil, and all of my friends in school would go in, and said, “Charge it to Mr. So and So.” Father and I felt very humiliated. I think 14 and 15 year old girls are very sensitive and I felt that it was really very low class, to have to go and pay cash for anything, so I contrived a little system of my own.
The Credit man at McLean’s Department Store was a neighbor, of ours, Mr. Dennis, and he knew Father very well, so one day I went to the Credit Department, said to Mr. Bennett, “Father wants to open an account here,” and he said, “That would be very nice, Helen,” having known me—so he made out the account or put it on the book that Fred Paka of 7 Lincoln Ave. had an account. I knew that, that, wouldn't go over with Father, so I wanted to get some stockings, silk stockings, and Father thought that was an extravagance, all the other, girls wore silk stockings to Dancing School, but he thought the lyle were enough, those were Buster Brown stockings at 25¢ a pair. So I told him that I needed stockings, badly, that I, had to have 4 pair, he gave me a dollar, I had the dollar, I was, always very careful, I had the dollar in the drawer of my dresser, then I went with some friends into McLean’s and I ordered one pair, of silk stockings, which were a dollar, charged to Mr. Fred Paka, of 7 Lincoln Ave. The next day I came home and went to the Credit Dept. and I wanted to pay Mr. Fred's bill and they said, why, he had only been charged the day before, and I said I hadn't realized that but anyway I want to pay the bill, so I put down my dollar, and a couple of nights after, Father said, “Where were those stockings you bought?” And I said, “They’re in my room.” He said, “I’d like to see them.” I think he, was a little suspicious, and I said, “Well they’re like the, other, ones, that I always get.” He said, “Well let me see them,” and I said, “I wonder where which drawer I put them?” And he said, “You didn't by any chance buy a pair of silk stockings with the dollar?” and I said, “Yes I did, all the other, girls have silk stockings.”
Well this went on for a year, my going in and charging, things. In fact up to the time when I was married, I went in and charged things to my father, but I always had the money before I charged it. And I think that the bookkeepers in McLean’s must have hated me, because, they would have to post it one day and the next day, I would go in to pay the bill. And I lived in such terror that the bill would be sent to my father, and he would find out that he owed money, because he had a regular sensation about owing money.
A druggist neighbor of his—ah—Father lived on Crandall St. last years of his life, and around the corner Mr. Barnam had a drugstore and he told me that Father came in one night to buy a magazine and it was on a Saturday night and Mr. Barnam had locked up and didn’t have, any change, Father gave him a dollar and he says, “you can pay Monday or any time.” Father said, “No I don’t owe anybody overnight for anything,” and he said he wouldn’t take the magazine. Well that’s the way he was brought up, you either had it or you didn't. But I said my poor, father never knew that he had an account in McLean’s from 1911 to the time he died, 1915, so I was scheming.
My aunt taught in Central High School and that embarrassed me, terribly, Mother’s sister, and I didn't want people to know, that she was my aunt, she was 17 years younger than my mother, only 11 years older than I was, but in a town like this, everybody knows who’s related to who, and finally people started asking me, if she was related, to me. I said, “No, no, not at all.” Well I was in her Biology class. I think that’s why she resigned and went to Brockport, and taught out there, because I gave her a very hard time, I’d become conveniently deaf and didn’t have my lessons prepared properly, I took full advantage of everything. In fact the principal called me to his, office, one day and said, “Your aunt”—I was very well behaved in everybody’s class but hers—he said, “Your aunt tells me she is, having a little difficulty here with you.”
“My aunt, what do you mean?”
And he said, “Look don’t tell me that she is not your aunt, I know she is. I have a sister going to school in here and if you think it’s any, treat to us, to have our relatives going where we're teaching, you got another guess coming.” I don’t know why she should spread a story like that, but I never gave in that I was related to her and at the end, of the year, she resigned and went to Brockport Normal, where she, was very happy.
Anna: Why did you deny her?
Mrs. Land: Well because she was bossy and she was only ten years older than I, and I didn't think she had any right to push me around. And I was a brat, that was the whole thing, I never had any trouble with any of the other teachers, and, but I just wasn’t going to be pushed around. But I did, I do think that, scholastically what I learned that year, in the 4 years in the Central High, I can’t be grateful enough to the marvelous, teachers we had. Our English teachers, our Latin teachers, our German teachers. We were perfectionists. If your assignment wasn't done you jolly well stayed, after school that night.
Anna: Do you remember some of the names?
Mrs. Land: Oh yes I remember, them very well. Fraulein Meyer was my German teacher, and Professor Greenwood, Julius Greenwood, was my English teacher, and I owe, I owe him so much, because he was such a perfectionist. And my Latin teacher, I had a teacher that I referred to as Caesar Brown, and then later on I had Miss Rogers, and I had Professor Williams in American History and I had Elizabeth Bump in Ancient History, and Miss Frink in Geometry. I had Professor Dan Mills who was an excellent Mathematician. I had him. I loved German. I don’t know why it seemed to come easily to me, but I knew Fraulein Meyer.
Anna: You never—I don’t know if she was teaching at the school then—Minka Beaukmann?
Mrs. Land: Oh no, no, Minka Beaukmann wasn’t teaching there when I was there—she came after—
Anna: But you, do you remember her?
Mrs. Land: Oh yes, certainly—
Anna: You do?
Mrs. Land: I knew the, the whole Beaukmnann Family.
Anna: You did! She was one of my best friends in the world.
Mrs. Land: Well, do you know Kathryn Maloney, by any chance? Well Kathryn is one of my best friends in the whole world! It’s a small world, isn’t it?
Anna: You could tell her—
Mrs. Land: I will!
Anna: —that I worked for Minka, and helped her out. She was wonderful—
Mrs. Land: I will.
Anna: Minka Beaukmann was a wonderful friend—
Mrs. Land: When I was a little girl—
Anna: —one of the best friends I ever had.
Mrs. Land: Well Charlotte Beaukmann, her older sister, I had her junior Endeavor class at West Presbyterian Church—
Anna: What school did she teach in?
Mrs. Land: She didn’t teach in the school, she stayed home and kept house for Eda and Minka.
Anna: Minka taught—what did she teach?
Mrs. Land: I’m not sure of that—I didn’t cross their teaching horizons. But Charlotte Beaukmann, and Henry Beaukmann was the only boy, and they lived at 28 Lincoln Ave, and my daughter lived at 29 when she was married. They bought 29, and that’s where my little great-grandson was born.
Anna: You knew Minka!
Mrs. Land: Oh yes, I know the whole family. And Kathryn Maloney just loved her. Well it’s a small world. And dear Kathryn comes to see me now, and she brought me—
Anna: She does! Please say hello to her.
Mrs. Land: —I will. And she brought me two pounds of soft-center [inaudible] the other day, and I said, “Kathryn, you just must not do that.” Every time she comes, she’s bringing something, and I said, “It embarrasses me to have you.”
[intermittently inaudible, 39m10s-41m47s]
Mrs. Land: When I was little, you see, Davis St. hadn't been cut through, that was the Bennett Estate, and Mrs. Bennett had been left a widow, and I read in the paper today, I didn't realize that her husband was killed in 1900 with one of the very first automobiles we had here in Binghamton. It got out of control, and his name was Fred Bennett, and he left this beautiful Estate which was between Lincoln Ave. and West Seminary Ave., and all of that going down as far as Laurel Ave. was part of the Bennett Estate. But the stipulation was that she was not to be married.
She was a very beautiful young woman, young widow. And she had many suitors, but this home was absolutely beautiful. And finally she succumbed to the wooing of Dr. Wagner, he was the head of our State Hospital here, and she left this home and went to live at the State Hospital with Dr. Wagner. And her children by that time were grown, she had 2 daughters and a son, and they were grown all the way, and that home was allowed to go in just a ruin, this beautiful brick home it was, facing Chestnut St. It was the top of Davis St., but the west side was on West Seminary Ave. You drove in there, and we were forbidden as children to go and play there. There was a picket fence that came down as Lincoln Ave. But we went there, we would go and peek in the windows, and these gorgeous windows and tier glass mirrors from the ceilings to the floor in there and they had a watchman type of man, who would control the Estate. But in those days there was no vandalism, nobody broke in, and nobody desecrated those things.
And today kids would be in it, and as a child, when I lived on Lincoln Ave., 6 Lincoln Ave., up until Millard Ave., that was all green houses to show you the beauty of the Estate.
Well there was a Mr. Davis here who was a friend of Fred Bennett. And his Father who was Abel Bennett and I believe he was the First Major Of Binghamton, I'm not sure about that. But Mr. Davis who was Paul Titchner’s, Titchner’s grandfather, maternal grandfather, was a great friend of Fred Davis, Abel Bennett’s, son. And they cut through Davis St. and named it for Paul Titchner’s, grandfather, and the other day one of the Paul Titchner’s daughters said to me, “Where was, did the Moreses used to live? What was the name of the street they used to live on?” And I said, “Jean, that street was named after your great-grandfather and don’t be saying, ‘What’s the name of that street?’”
“It was named after my great-grandfather?”
I said, “It certainly was.” Davis Street was named for him, but when I was young Bennett Park was a place to go. There was no entertainment over there, like Ross Park, but it was beautiful, the woods were nice, over there and there were picnic tables and you could go over there and, have your picnic lunch and it was a very nice place, for families to go to, to go around, they would sit there at night , and it was a, nice place to go.
I lived at Lincoln Ave., 7 Lincoln Ave. We had, wooden sidewalks then there were, were no cement walks then and, between 7 and 9 Lincoln Ave. there was a little lamppost out there and there was a little man, midget man that used to come down the street, every night with a little, ladder over his shoulder and a torch in his, hand, and he would put this little ladder up against this little, lamppost, and climb up on it and light that lamp. That was before, the days of arclights, electric lights or anything else. And I would look over the windowsill and watch for him to come, every night, cause it was really—I was afraid of him, there was something about him, he was as I say a malformed little fellow and he, carried this little ladder over his shoulder with his arm between it, and he'd put this against the lamppost, and I don't suppose the lamppost was more than 6 feet tall, but he would climb up on that and, light that lamp. And oh I could remember, when electric lights went in, that was considered something.
We had only gas in the house, that was on the first floor, you used kerosene lamps on the second floor, very few families had them. Although I know that in 1912 some private homes, some families were fixed for electricity, but very few, most of them depended on gas. These Wellspot burners which were very perishable, and if you were sent to the store to get one you prayed you wouldn’t drop it on the way home, but in those days I had a, friend, who had electricity in the house, and you took a basket of burned out bulbs, and took them over to the Electric Light Company on Washington St., and they replaced them with new bulbs.
That didn't last very long, that was the days you did things like that. I do remember that the trolley cars went out of existence in 1932—they were replaced by buses—because I was over in Canada for the Summer and I had a letter from my father saying they took a ride on the last trolley.
Today we used to ride from Leroy St. and Chestnut St. We took a streetcar on a terribly hot night, it would take us to the State Hospital Hill for a nickel and you would go up there, and they would turn the seats, these were open air streetcars and they would turn, turn the seats, and you'd have to get out, and for another nickel, you would ride back, from the Hospital Hill, down to Chestnut and Leroy Streets. That would give you a real nice outing. Oh our entertainments were very inexpensive.
My father was a bookkeeper for Grayson and Carr’s Groceries and Meats at the corner of Main and Edwards St., 106 and 108 Main. After Father died I was going through his desk and I found a statement, that he made up, he used to go to the store in the morning, when in summer the men came in with the produce, with berries, and vegetables like that. Father would go down half past four in the morning to meet them there and then he would ride around with a horse and buggy. Then he would take orders, and he would ride back to the store, and put up the groceries and meat, and go back and deliver it. And some of these people would pay cash, and some had weekly statements, and some had monthly statements.
Father would come home at 6 o’clock at night, had his supper and go right up to his desk and sit down, make out these statements, he'd be working ’til 12 or 1 o’clock, the most beautiful penmanship you have ever seen, and he would be making out these, statements. Well I found a statement, I think it was in 1906, and, it had the prices of things there. A pound of butter, 12¢, and coffee was 28¢ a pound, rib roast of beef $1.12 for 2 or 3 pounds. Father was a great coffee drinker up to the day he, died, and all the give away things in those days. Here we have a this-and-that shop, Hershey Bars now, 20 cents I buy 5 of these bars, 5 for a dollar. My father is turning in his grave, oh I just can’t believe it, I do not see how they can feed their families, but that’s now.
Anna: I go to the St. Patrick’s Cemetery, it’s near the Slovak Cemetery, and that’s where all my folks, my family are buried. My grandmother Anna Mrlak, my father Stephen Torony, and my dear brother Robert Torony who was injured playing football, he has a monument of his own features carved out of stone.
Mrs. Land: Who did it?
Anna: An old man in Barre, Vermont. He was only 24 years old, he was a wonderful, good boy, loved by all. When he died there were 150 cars at his funeral, and the whole city didn’t work that day—a Tribute to Bob Torony the Great Football Hero, died Jan. 1932. I never got over it.
Mrs. Land: Oh no, you don’t. Well Rick Cooper, Edgar Cooper’s son—
Anna: Ricky was in the next room to Bob’s in the New York Hospital. And they both died of the same sickness. We knew the Cooper family and we went to see them in New York. He, Rick is buried in the Chenango Valley Cemetery in Hillcrest. My daughter Irene lives near there.
Mrs. Land: That’s very interesting, because you can’t get Vermont granite today for your brother’s monument.
Anna: The man that made it said the longer it stays, the more it will look like him (Bob). It sure was a tragedy.
Mrs. Land: Well you wonder why those things happen.
Anna: Thanks for a wonderful interview, Mrs. Land.
",,,,"47:47 Minutes ; 26:22 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Helen Land",,,,1978-05-01,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Land, Helen -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Electrification; Citizenship; Trolley cars; Bennett Family; Recreation Park; Ross Park; Dance class ",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/468375805bc492ddeadf2ef8e50902db.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2c297dbfb70208b9f6cfac62557eb678.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c17143aa66998a4b8a67cdd36e3e9b46.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e82bb6fdbb803935e2426b3a2c8dfbe0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f0088b6f4dee4baf2bbf72cf03603563.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b5ae745c79695242ed0a9b6c35806b16.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/94896b193e0fc17ea3846a047d806993.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ba5c77b5639c7f398056247ee2a5116f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b695e105c101b7b91029d1917caf8bc9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d7708917fa8933ea849f9672210b9229.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ece5017a63a2dd41e88b6da02d09a17b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/99647aab66f4c23722602bb20f84f876.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e05372452c5b92515e1113ff16cec340.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/26d4f7def304c0de4ddbe3877b2fcd84.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/579132966e9f862be42584fa8c9bd43d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bd972ed0eb9a202a33be6b5118e89326.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8b3d8c93e8f69af340aa7cd979c69a53.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/381b379bbdd0ce6c665cdf3a5640c181.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8ccc447b476aa5f8b31e1c94b1ff4208.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a95887aa0e2939f8864e2cc98a8a2128.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/50ac7e8acb26f9c44d43ec7b03440e06.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/85d6f377560118c896c5b37fc5d44fea.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8e0c181ce82fea9b6d09fb368330bce1.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 539,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/539,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"33:40 Minutes ; 18:44 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dr. Jean Smith ",,"Smith, Jean ; Wood, Wanda",,"audio/mp3 ","Smith, Jean -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Chenango Bridge (N.Y.); Women physicians -- Interviews; Syracuse University; World War, 1939-1945; Vaccination; Chenango Valley Central Schools; Chenango Valley Medical Group; State University of New York at Binghamton Clinical Campus; Polio","Dr. Jean Smith speaks about her motivations for becoming a physician and why she settled in Chenango Bridge, NY. She received her education at Syracuse University during World War II and went into practice with her brother, Dr. Robert Smith. She discusses several aspect of her career, including house calls and early use of penicillin and antibiotics. She also discusses working with Chenango Valley Central Schools as a school physician and in the field of family practice, the development of the Chenango Bridge Medical Group, and emerging ethical questions in regard to modern medicine. She describes her interest in current medical practice and natural food, some of her post-retirement interests, as well as the beginning of the clinical campus program at the State University of New York at Binghamton.",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-05-02,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 55A ; Recording 55B ",,"Wood, Wanda ","Smith, Jean ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Dr. Jean Smith
Interviewed by: Wanda Wood
Date of interview: 2 May 1978
Wanda: This is Wanda Wood interviewing Dr. Jean Smith of Highover Rd. in Chenango Bridge. The date is the second of May, 1978. Doctor Jean, you've recently retired as a family physician after twenty-some years in—a our community and we're interested in your life experiences in—a this Broome County area. A—would you begin by telling us where you were born?
Dr. Jean: Well, I was born and raised in Syracuse, but both of my parents came from Broome County and they were born and raised in Windsor, New York, where my grandfather was a dentist. My mother and father both went to Syracuse to—to—a college and—a they later settled there. And I spent my summers in this area, so that I was always interested in coming back here. And when I finished my training I came to Chenango Bridge and started practicing in family practice with my brother, who was already here in family practice. Ah—I wanted to be a doctor as long as I could remember. I do remember when I was in—a high school, we had to write a paper on—a “My Vocation” and I wrote about nursing, but I looked into nursing schools and decided that I wouldn't be an ordinary nurse, I would be the very best, so I told my brother I was going to Yale and get a Master of Nursing and—a so he said, ""Well how long will that take?"" (Laughing) I said ""Six years."" And he said, ''Well in seven years you could go on to medical school, you—"" and so that clinched it. I knew that's really what I preferred. But I went to school at Syracuse in—a during—it was during the war years. And there were four girls in the class and about forty-five fellows and they were all in the service, except one. And—a so they were on the gravy train. They had their tuition paid and their books and their microscopes and—a a nice fat check which they used for gambling! (chuckles) We told them that if they used that money they could pay our way through too, but they didn't like that idea too well. But we did have a good class and we had lots of fun and—a people ask me today if I had trouble—being a woman in medical school or in medicine. I guess I was just too naïve to know that if there was trouble I didn't find it. But I hear the women libbers today and realize that I wa—probably was discriminated against in many small ways, but I just ignored it and it was no problem at the time, but I am sympathetic with the girls who are trying to get real equality today and opportunities.
Wanda: Well, when you came to—to this area, how many women physicians were in practice?
Dr.Jean: There were five or six here at the time and I can think of six of us now who are retired and—a I'm not aware of more than two or three in the area that are practicing now. There's a real—I think there's a real need for women physicians in the area now. But surprisingly enough there were about five or six at that time.
Wanda: Dr. Mary Ross was one of them, wasn't she?
Dr. Jean: Yeah—Dr. Mary Ross was a—family physician for a lot of people in the area; Dr. Myrtle Wilcox who just recently retired; and—a Dr. Florence Warner who retired a few years ago, but she's still doing the Well Baby Clinics; and Dr.Connie Vitanza came just after I did in pedia—pediatrics—she retired last year; and there was an allergist, Dr. Vencko I think her name was. She's still around but I don't know if she's doing allergy or not. Her husband's a surgeon.
Wanda: So when you—when you came here your brother who was known as Dr. Bob, and you are known as Dr. Jean—
Dr. Jean: That's right.
Wanda: —a—he was, he had already—a—been in practice for a couple of years, wasn't it?
Dr. Jean: Yes. He graduated from med school about six years before I did, but he was in the service for a while. He'd started practicing in Chenango Bridge—was only here about a year, when Pearl Harbor occurred and he went in the Navy and then came back to Chenango Bridge after the war. So he'd only been back about a year—or maybe two—when I finished and joined him. But we both liked the area a lot. I think one of the reasons was—a it was a mixed practice of rural and suburban. We had the feeling that we (were) really needed in the country—the farmers and the country people—and—and yet we had the stimulation of suburban people. And—a—a—we both enjoyed our work with the school because we made friends and a good percentage of the administrators and the teachers were our patients and friends and that was very stimulating, and has been over the years. I've enjoyed that.
Wanda: Now you speak almost casually about this rural practice, but (laughs) I seem to remember a lot of your calls were done in the back hills, so to speak.
Dr. Jean: Well, we made a lot of house calls in those days and—a we got to know the families—a real well—traveled in a lot of snow and a lot of mud. I remember it was always a challenge and fun to drive up in the country in all kinds of weather but I did have to rely on friends every now and then in the middle of the night to help out. I used to call on Bruce Russell or Ron Brown or somebody to drive with me on some bad nights. I think they enjoyed it, too. Sometimes we had to call the ambulance and the ambulance drivers would complain and say what a terrible time they had getting up there, and they'd suddenly realize that we were there too, and had been there (laughs) for a while. But it was—it was an exciting time. It was just the beginning of antibiotics then, too. I remember going up into the country and giving some of the first shots of penicillin in the area. Nowadays they give about a million units of penicillin a day and we used to—a have little tablets of ten thousand-unit penicillin and we'd dissolve 'em and put ‘em in the syringe and (laughs) we used to get good results. We'd cure pneumonia with just a little bit of penicillin. It was terrib—pretty expensive at that time, too, so we didn't use much. It was hard to get. In fact it was so close to the beginning of antibiotic—era—1947 was when I came to Chenango Bridge—penicillin had not been out long. I think it was about 1940 or 1942 it was first used. And—a in the thirties was the first that they had sulfa even. Before that I remember neighbors that died of pneumonia and infections and a lot of the kids I knew had big mastoid operation scars because they didn't have any other real way to cure their infections. And—a in fact my brother's wife died when he was a medical student from—a infection that today would be considered just a—a—a nuisance, post-operatively, and a shot of penicillin or a few antibiotics would take care of the situation. And—a so when you think that all—all of this—a advance in medicine that has come in, not only in my lifetime but in the few years that I practiced—it's pretty amazing. And—a—
Wanda: How about—a polio? Was that—at the time you started practice there was no—a nothing that could be done actually to prevent it, was there?
Dr. Jean: No—every summer we used to dread—a summer coming on when the kids first started to have symptoms of headache and vomiting and th—it was always a big worry as to which ones were going to develop polio—and there were always a few every summer. Some summers there were more than a few and I think it was about 1954 that—a we had our first—a program for polio vaccine and the kids were called polio pioneers 'cause only half of them got the real McCoy and half of them got a placebo-type of shot, and they were just doing—a their first big public health studies in—to the value of polio vaccine and it was so successful that—a I think it was 1955 that we—a had another project where we were giving the real McCoy and—a to just as many youngsters as we could reach. I remember—a we had—a large clinics at the schools through Broome County. It seems to me with the shots it was all done through the schools then later when we had the oral vaccine, it was—had big polio Sundays where the entire population could come. But that first year it was just available for a certain age group, um, kids that were most susceptible and—a it was just done through the schools, it was not available for adults in that year.
Wanda: Now at that time—a you were probably—had been appointed the school physician for Chenango Valley, hadn't you?
Dr. Jean: Um-hmm, yeah I was Chenango Valley School Physician—most of those years. That was the same year that I got polio myself in—a, I think it was—a September or October. I—a was treating a little five months old baby at home and—a about—a few days later I came down with polio and I was laid up for a few months and went back part-time on—with—a crutches and braces, but kept at it—a my physiotherapy and got along real well and now I have practically nothing—to show for it.
Wanda: Nothing to show for it ... (both chuckle) that's the way to do things... Is there anything else you'd like to say about—a the school—um health programs?
Dr.Jean: Well one of the—a—a most satisfying parts of my work in the school was working with the school nurse—teachers who were—a all very well trained and very dedicated people and our school administrator—a Mr.Galloway, was very interested in school health and we had a—good program where we really tried to identify youngsters who needed special attention and special services and see that they got them. And the nurses were given the time and the help to work with the families and see that they followed through with any recommendations that we made. I really enjoyed that part of my work.
Wanda: You've—a—probably the—the larger part of your practice has been with a—obstetrics and pediatrics, hasn't it? You've always enjoyed working with babies and I think that's what you're remembered for mostly around here—is your excellent care—
Dr. Jean: Well, I've probably delivered well over a thousand babies or maybe fifteen hundred babies in that—a length of time, and—a took care of most of them and—a yes—I took care of the whole family and I enjoyed knowing the whole family and—a I—a I like to think that I—that I am a family physician, and I'm really proud that I've always belonged to the Academy of General Practice, which is now the Academy of Family Practice. And it was one of the first groups that required post-graduate—a—a courses to maintain your membership. Right from the beginning I've always taken a lot of—a courses. We've had to have a hundred and fifty hours, at least, every three years and that—a—I'd combine that with travel. I'd go to different medical centers throughout the country and get acquainted with them and keep up to date on things and—a in 1971 I took the two-day board examination to become a specialist in Family Practice. That's the most recent specialty in the United States as far as having—a a specialty board and special certification, and happily many of the younger physicians today are beginning to go into that specialty, since it's taken on—a little more respectability. And many other specialities in some states now are requiring—a approved post-graduate hours and—a followed our leadership in that. I've been active over the years, too in the American Women's Medical Association and on their scholarship committees. It's interesting going over the scholarship applications today. The budgets of the girls in medical school are—it costs ten or twelve thousand dollars a year now, to go to medical school. And I used to beg, borrow or steal—two hundred dollars four times a year to pay my tuition (laughs) and I lived at home, so that wasn't any problem. But—a it's amazing that—a these youngsters are not discouraged. They go right ahead and do the same thing—beg, borrow or steal, I guess. There are ma—many of them, their parents aren't supporting them anymore in graduate school and they're going in debt for 20 or 30,000 dollars in—a—with government loans and scholarships and they're just thinking nothing of it.
Wanda: Would you—a advise young people to go into this—general practice rather than a specialization these days?
Dr. Jean: Well I think it depends a lot on the—a the individual and where their interests lie. I would say it would be one of the most rewarding—a—a specialties certainly because—a you're dealing more in the—in the—breadth of problems—the family problems, the medical problems rather than the—than going deeply into one area, but it involves the, the emotional health and the social well-being of the family as well as their medical problems and it's—it's really fascinating and very, very rewarding to get to work with the family as a whole. And—a I—it's a whole new ball game in medicine today, however. There's so many new special areas—a that one needs to be familiar with and a lot of social changes that—a necessitate changes in the way one practices, and it—a—
Wanda: So the Family Physician is—is a specialty in this age?
Dr. Jean: Yes. It really is, yeah. A family physician has a lot of special knowledge about the family—about the individual problems of families and various ages and various kinds of problems that families have that a specialist—a wouldn't be expected to know. So a family physician has a lot to offer now—a that a specialist in—a, for instance surgery or neurology or something else—a—a would really be out of his bailiwick.
Wanda: Do you want to tell us something about the development of the Chenango Bridge Medical Group? A—first there were you and your brother—Dr. Jean and Dr. Bob—and—a practicing in his home?
Dr. Jean: Um-hmm. That's right. Then—a we had—a, Dr.Howard came and joined us, and there were three of us practicing from—a Bob's home. Then Bob went back to take his specialty training in surgery and—a Dr.Peterson, I think, was the next one to join us. Anyway, over the years we've gradually enlarged the group, but we've tried to keep it—a, basically a family or primary care—a group and just added specialists as we felt there was a need for them.
Wanda: When you first—a went into the building on Chenango Bridge Road—when was that built?
Dr. Jean: (laughs) Gee, I don't remember, I should have checked on some of the dates—
Wanda: Well, it was shortly after the two of you had taken on another doctor in the group, wasn't it?
Dr. Jean: Yeah. I think there were four of us when we built—a the original building and we've added on to that twice and—a now with the most recent addition there are facilities for twelve physicians. We've never had that many.
Wanda: Plus the X-ray and the medical lab.
Dr. Jean: X-ray, lab, physiotherapy and—a with room for expansion—a. As I say, we could take probably—a two or three more physicians, as far as the space is concerned. But the offices—a—the business office takes up quite a little space now, too, with all the paperwork involved in the practice of medicine. We need a secretary for various special areas. We have one who does almost all Workmen's Compensation and on that does mostly—a Welfare and Medicare and Medicaid, and there's all kinds of billing machines and things that our professors never told us about when we were in medical school!
Wanda: That's another specialization, isn't it?
Dr. Jean: Yes. Yeah it is. We have a full time business manager and he's in charge of—I don't know how many employees—eight or ten, anyway.
Wanda: Well this—a group has—a filled a great need in this community because—a when Dr. Bob first came here, of course there was no physician in this particular area of the Town of Chenango and—a with the post-war growth of housing around here and the consequent baby boom—a your services were greatly appreciated in this community, I remember.
Dr. Jean: Well, we've enjoyed trying to provide that service and enlarging the Group as we needed to. I was thinking about the switchboard at the office. It has—a, of course, many extensions and—a we have to have—a a girl at our switchboard all the time and I remember when we first started. Remember the old town switchboard and Lilian Pierson was the operator? And we'd—I'd go on a house call up around Chenango Forks, a—ten o'clock at night and before I'd left there the phone would ring and the switchboard—I mean the—a telephone operator down in Chenango Bridge—where was it, over the old railroad station or post-office? Somewhere down there—
Wanda: Yeah.
Dr. Jean: —anyway, she—she'd follow me around the country and tell me the next—a, next—a house call to make, 'cause somebody'd call in and she'd know right where I was, I didn't have to tell her. And—a that was kinda fun to keep in touch that way. And of course we didn't have anybody at night—other than the doctor's wife usually, that answered the phone.
Wanda: How about emergency services? When—when you started and—and compared with what they are today with our present set-up in the Town of Chenango?
Dr. Jean: Well, when there were two of us we alternated nights and weekends, all year round there was always one of us on—a—hopefully available. We tried to be available. And—a with the Group, we have rotated the various specialities. There's always been a surgeon and a medical person on call in addition to the general physician on call, but—a in recent years the—a ambulance service and the hospital emergency rooms have been very well staffed with medical people and paramedical people. And so I'm sure the service is very much better than it was at that time—a, but they have a lot of sophisticated equipment to work with, which—a of course we didn't have, we did the best we could.
Wanda: It was simple but it was good.
Dr. Jean: Some of the new sophisticated equipment is—a raising some ethical questions that are going to be very difficult to deal with and—a I can see that we're going to need a lot of help from other fields—a beside medicine, in solving the ethical problems that are arising. A—for instance, I myself carry a card—a which states that I don't want to be kept alive by all of our fancy equipment if there’s no reasonable hope of recover—recovery physically or mentally. And—a this is not a legal document but—a—it—it lets my family and my physicians know how I feel about it and—a—a—I'm very much concerned about some of the so-called advances in medicine which are miraculous and really great where they're—where they should be applied, but the question is when and where should they be applied?
Wanda: (Would that) be in any particular case, such as older patients who are—have lived their useful years and are ready to go?
Dr. Jean: Right. We used to say pneumonia is the friend of the aged, and—a I can think of a number of elderly people who—a died fairly quickly, quickly and easily at home with pneumonia, after various other problems, but today we're almost forced to use antibiotics if someone has pneumonia because it's something we can cure. But—a I'm—it's very difficult to make decisions as to a—when to—a limit your treatment in an older person or a terminal person. These are some of the things that the younger physicians—a are having to face and—a are—a… These kinds of things are beginning to be incorporated in the medical curriculum to realize that—a physicians aren't gods and—a we don't have the answers and we need help in making decisions. One—a thing that I am quite pleased about recently—it seems to me that people in general are beginning to take more responsibility for their own health care, both preventative medicine and in deciding what they—how far they want to go in treating their illnesses, and I think that's as it should be. Physicians should present—a the available resources and—a the family and the patient and the doctor together should decide what they want to do with the things that are available.
Wanda: How about this—a modern craze, it seems, on—a health foods and natural—a nutrition. What do you think about that? Do you have any thoughts about it?
Dr. Jean: Yes. It's a—there are two sides of it that—a, it seems to me, that the young people today—a who are interested in taking care of their bodies and eating properly and exercising and—a taking some responsibility for themselves—a that, that's very good, but I'm really alarmed at some of the information that they are getting from faddists and—a—a all the books that are being written for profit, and—a where it's very difficult for—a people to make up their minds as to what is legitimate and what is 'quacky.' And—a I think we have to rely a lot on the—a whole scientific community and their—a the dietetic associations and people that have really studied nutrition over the years, instead of just picking up the first book on the newsstand and thinking it sounds like it's gonna be the answer to everybody's prayers.
Wanda: Can you remember any instances—a during your practice when you—a had problems with people who were trying to cure themselves?
Dr. Jean: No, not too much, I think they probably didn't—a—a—confide in me what they were doing if they—if they did. I remember running into a few·mushroom poisonings, where people would go out and get a beautiful batch of mushrooms and get a couple—a bad ones. That always—a was rather alarming, but I've noticed today there's a lot of courses in mushroom identification, so maybe people know more about it than they did.
Wanda: Well now that—a you are retired, what are your…what are your activities going to be in the next—a few years?
Dr. Jean: Well I retired—a not because I planned to, but for health reasons and—a I had many interests and hobbies in photography and traveling, and taken up some new ones—sculpture, and been going to some—a workshops in counseling and—a personal growth and so I've got a lot of interests. I had thought that I might do some volunteer work in medicine, but I have discovered that there are a lot of other areas in this world that I never even heard about before, that are well worth looking into and—a I'm really enjoying exploring new areas. Never had time for it before. So I—some of the volunteer things in the medical field are—are having to wait at the moment; I don't know whether I'll get back into that or not.
Wanda: You are involved with the—the new medical program at SUNY?
Dr. Jean: I have been on—a the curriculum committee for the new clinical campus. The clinical campus at SUNY is a—a new development and they’ve appointed—a—faculty already. We have a Dean, Assistant Dean, and some educators that are planning a program. What it actually is, is half of the junior and senior medical school classes from Syracuse will be coming to the Binghamton area for their clinical training and—a they're not coming until, I believe 1980. There will be twenty students. We already have some Fifth Pathway students that are working in the hospitals here. These are students who have had—a their medical education overseas and are fulfilling some special clinical work here. And we're developing the faculty and—a hopefully we'll have some training in teaching for our local people. Um—these programs are being set up now, well ahead of the time the students are going to arrive. And it's been a real stimulation to the medical community here and I'm sure it'll continue to be now. Um—the emphasis, I think, is going to be on primary care, although all the specialties will be involved and—a I…it seems to me that it's getting off to a very good start. There's some good people involved in the program.
Wanda: Well, is there anything else that you'd like to have put on this tape while we're at it?
Dr. Jean: I think we've covered quite a little ground here already. Maybe another day we'll come up with some special topics.
Wanda: Well if you have anything to add later on we can still—a do that, however I want to thank you for the time you've taken this morning and for your service to this community.
Dr. Jean: It's been fun.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Doris E. Chase
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 8 May 1978
Susan: Miss Chase, could you start by telling us where you were born, something about your parents, and any recollections you have of your early childhood and later on your work experiences in the community?
Doris: Yes, I was born in Windsor, NY, on February 11, 1914. I couldn't have had better parents. They were good Christian people and they welcomed me into the home. I had two brothers, eight and ten years older than I was, and they had been praying for me for eight years, and here the little girl comes to town. A little offset would be nice to tell you that when, ah, brother Ronald, when he knew that I had arrived at one o'clock in the afternoon, he went and rang every doorbell in Windsor to tell them he had a little baby girl Doris, and I can say he still loves me as much which is wonderful. Well I went to school in Windsor ’til I was in the, ah, sixth grade, and then I—we moved to California ’cause my father thought he wanted to get out of the undertaking business and work out there with my aunts and uncles, and I went to a school—first the Menlo Avenue School, which was very interesting. My people sort of put me on my own, at the time I thought I was desperate, because I thought to go in, I was a little girl from Windsor and I was scared to death, but they put me in what you call an “opportunity class” that find out what you can do. From Windsor to Los Angeles was quite a stride but every day I walked by the famous Coliseum and played around there, which I—now you have your big football games and your—but I was there a whole term and I worked myself so hard, I was so worried about not making good, that I skipped a whole grade.
Then I was over to Angeles Massus School where we bought a home there in Los Angeles. This was very interesting to me, too, because in those days I didn't know about Spanish homes and this was a Spanish type of school, and you played handball all winter long and you rollerskated to school in the middle of the blocks that's—was the way it was set up, so it was a great thrill and a great experience. Well, after a year my dad decided to return, and we came to Binghamton and he bought the funeral home on Exchange Street in 1924. Well I spent my days going into high school at the age of 12, which was an early age, and I graduated at 16 and I took college entrance, where it was of great value to me ‘cause I still reiterate that Latin and French are very good, especially Latin, for people today, and I stress it with my students in the library now. Then I was to go for Physical Ed and was accepted at Cortland State College, but I had an operation which changed my life around, which I think the Lord did do this because he had something else better for me, so I went to business school here in Binghamton at Lowell’s, and I graduated from there and the first job I had, they got for me down on Susquehanna Street in a plumbing company. Well I was only there two weeks, and for this reason—my mother played in a bridge club where Walker Sherwood, the County Treasurer, his daughter played in it, and she asked my mother if Doris had work. She said, “Well, yes, but she didn't want to stay there.""
So she said that he wanted somebody to type the tax sale, and we'd be there a month. The job would be a month’s job, and I said to Mother, ""I'm going to take it. I'm going to get my foot in the door on the Courthouse.” So on July 3rd in 1933 I entered the Courthouse, and I'm still with it now. This is in 1978 through many jobs, but Walker Sherwood was the president of the bank here in the city and he was appointed by Governor Charles Hughes to take over the County Treasurer, and he taught me everything I knew in banking. It was a delightful thing to start working with him, ’cause I remember the first day I was very scared and he said, “Just get on the job and make good, ‘cause I was told that when I became a runner in the bank and worked up to President.”
We didn't start the tax sale that day. It wasn't quite ready, so he said, ""I've got—I'm gonna have you sort checks."" Again, I was so scared that I sorted all the checks in one day and it was quite a standing joke in the office. (Chuckle.) Well, I progressed, of course, and ah—ah, Walker Sherwood died, and then I was appointed Deputy County Treasurer by Ralph Page, the new Treasurer, and I had five girls under me. It was much fun and a lot of hard work. I got into court with trust funds, mortgage taxes, et cetera—made trips to Albany and had many friendships.
Well, my life went along, and then I did go to Houston, Texas, for a short time. I was married and I worked in an interesting place there. The man we bought our home from was the—the City Treasurer of Houston and also the Chief of the Civil Service, and the uncanny part of it, I, he said—he said, ""Where are you from?"" and I said, “Binghamton, you've never heard of it.""
And he says, ""Oh yes I have,” because the Chief of Police, Joe Sullivan at that time, he said, “I went to the FBI School with him,” and he said, ""Well, why don't you come—come to work for me?"" And I said, ""Well, I wouldn't know the Texas laws."" And he said, ""Well, we need help,” and he says, ""We're really in dire straits because we are just beginning to put the IBM payrolls on—on machines, and we don't just know how to do it.''
Well, I began to laugh. He said, ""What are you laughing at?” I said, “We were the guinea pig of the whole United States when the IBM started that."" So he says, ""Come to work Monday.” So that was an experience that I had working there. I worked there six months, and then my husband drove out the driveway and left me and I have never seen him since and that was twenty-six years ago now, but life was still open. God was seeing his way, opening—closing doors and then opening another for, and so when I came home in May, Judge Brink called me up. He says, ""I hear you’re home, Doris,"" and I said, ""Yes,"" and he said, ""Well I have an opening the first of September. You are going to come and work for me as—in the county judge.""
And I said, ""Well, I don't know that work."" He says, ""Well I will teach you."" That was the most delightful ten years I have—he was a very honorable man, he taught me so many things. He taught me how to read briefs, how to take decisions. I had pistol permits, which, everything is divided now in different departments—called the Jury Commissioner, I did that where, and it was—it was really an experience and it was gearing me for my further life coming on.
So the, the librarian died—Miss Lee, who had been there fifty years—and Judge McAvoy came to me and he said, ""I would like to have you come and take over."" Well, again I reiterate I didn't know the work. He said, ""I don't know it either, but I know that you will get in there and work hard."" So, it was quite a time to take over everything, because everything was behind and the Library was closed down for several days because just everything was—supplements were back and everything needed attention, so until we could get straightened around, why, it—it took quite a while, but I did go to visit—well, the first library I visited was the United States Supreme Court Library—a very interesting man, Dr. Hurdon was delighted when I told him my story. He said, ""Anybody will do this."" He said, ""You sit right down and I will talk with you a whole afternoon, get you straight on your treatises and so forth."" And he really gave me a great start to come back to set up the library and there were many other, ah, libraries that I did go to, and then I took the courses that were offered by another fine man who was the Appellate Division Librarian. He was also a teacher out of Chicago in his earlier days, and he taught us in New York how to do the Law Library—catalog work, and many, many things, so that, people have always been helpful in my life and I now I'm getting in the stage where I want to leave for posterity. I want to help the students I have, the SUNY students and I have the teachers from Cortland State Teachers College, you see I have volumes there that in this area the State provides, and they don't have it in other libraries, only in Cornell. Not everybody can go to Cornell University to look these up.
But, getting back to the men in my life, they have always influenced me, but the greatest influence was my father, for every morning we had prayers, even from a little girl I remember him down there reading his Bible, and he always had such wonderful thoughts to offer you and I know it—it's influenced my life greatly, and he said, ""Doris, if you keep your faith He'll always stand by you."" And it's so true, even in the library work I have my New Testament in my desk drawer, and if I lack wisdom I look up in the Book of James for help and God has never failed me. It might not be that moment, it might not be that hour, it might be next week, but He's always—always helped me, and I'm so grateful for that kind of background, that’s what everybody needs to get through this life, and I'm just so thankful that I have had these fine men and everybody, and I do love my lawyers. They know I'll do anything for them and people would be happy if they really gave her the life. Money isn't everything. It's—and another thing, ah, character is important, not that I'm so good, but I've tried to fill the principles that they taught me. So now, and I'm in my church work at St. Paul’s Lutheran Church and I enjoy the class, and we have an adult class, which is really—we enjoy, and we are helpful to many, many people that we reach out to them and if they need groceries or if they need help in many ways, we talk with them and it's a very satisfying life. I think, of course, the older you grow, the more you turn your thoughts to God, I guess, but in my own life I can't say that. I'm always—always going to church. I've tithed. I've done it from a little girl up and I have never lacked for anything—I might get down to my last penny, but I've always been supplied with everything in this life. It's hard to think of so many things that have happened, ah—
Well, I've been honored, which is very nice. I—way back, I hadn't been in the Library too long. It was in October of 1969, and I got a letter from the Bar Association and they asked me to come to their dinner as their guest, and I really—I couldn't think why they'd want me there, but anyway I soon found out. They honored me with two beautiful corsages, and for bringing the Library back to life. It was—it was certainly a tribute—a standing tribute. It was almost too much for me, but then I stood on my feet and I thanked them for what they did, and then I said, ""There are a few things that you’ve left out."" And they of course looked surprised, and I said, ""Well—I, there were things that I'm called upon to do by all of you when you go into court, and this is true, I've sewed on many buttons on coats and blue suits and have had to go there. I've had to call wives. I've had to read things back on the telephone when you were desperate. You have keys and you come to my house nights and Sundays and everything else, so I guess I sort of mother all of you.""
Well, later on in life I had another honor, which I was very, very pleased. I went home one day and I had a letter from the Women of Status Council, and I—I didn't really know what it was. I started reading and they said they wanted me to come to a dinner again and that they wanted a brief biography of myself, and this was held in the Ramada Inn and my honor was for my work in the community in Law, not as a lawyer, but being helpful to the people and the students trying to—going way beyond my line of duty to—to give something, and as I say, if I know something I try to impart it. There's one other thing, too, when—well, judges, I have them and they come in and ask me and I say, “I don't know why you're asking me?” They said, ""We came because we don't know and when we'll work.""
Well I said, ""I know I don't know, that's one thing I've always said if I don't, but there's a great big but—but I will start looking. We'll keep searching ’til we find it."" I can't think of any other honors that I've had, but I love life. I love people. It's very evident I love people, because so many people say, ""Well, it's so much fun to come in there, ’cause we always, it's not just like work, it's play."" Well, I've had students, too, that it's been a—ah, I'll never forget, I remember one boy that I worked with, very hard with, in—in federal taxes and things like that, and he went on to, ah, Hastings College in California, and it was several years later that I looked up, and here he was in my library, and he said, ""I was near Binghamton and I just had to come back and tell you,” he said, “how much you did for me,” and he said, “You know you made my life very easy in Federal Taxes when I went to college, because,” he said, ""you went into great depth to, ah, to teach me."" And as I say, “When you didn't know, I used to call David Sterns, ’cause he's tops in that field. I never called him until we got to the, until when we—we just didn't know where we were going."" And so I felt very pleased about that. There have been many rewarding things that have, and you—you can help students.
I remember one boy, too—he came in, and a professor had brought his class up, and he was going to show him, and he was trying to save me and he was trying to show what the library—how to look for things. Well, he went so rapidly that this poor boy, he sat down and he says, ""I will never be a lawyer, I—I just can't grasp it this fast."" And I says, ""Don't worry, I'll talk with you afterwards."" So after it was over with, I said to him, ""When you have time, you come up and make an appointment with me here in the Library,” and I said, ""I will take time and I will show you what we have here and you can ask me any questions, and you take notes because I know that your father wants you to become a lawyer."" And I said, ""Don’t get discouraged by just this little."" He never got over it and I didn't either, but it—these things in life that count that are worthwhile. It's just wonderful to be able to be—well, I think I'm privileged to be in this position of being with these men working under them and God. I can't say but what He really planned my life and it's opened up as I've gone along, and as I say I gave this speech, ""The Men in My Life,"" to the Exchange Club, and as I—I prepared for it—it took me about two months because I wouldn't get up and speak in front of men if I didn't know what I was talking about, and I realized then for the first time that I never applied for a job. So I'm happy, and I'm just glad to do this for you for posterity.
Susan: Well, thank you very much, Doris, for taking the time out to come up and talk with us. I knew that, ah—about your background, but it is a story that only you could tell us and I appreciate it very much. Thank you.
",,,,"23:01 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Doris Chase",,,,1978-05-08,,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Chase, Doris -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Broome County (N.Y.) -- Officials and employees -- Interviews; Librarians -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Lowell School of Business; Broome County Courts",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/45c70ad2b623cfe27cb7aae620dbcc91.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6f26cf1227cae7dc44283335f31cc58e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b4e00d06c9ffb288898cd9eddb59065d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0631477f67b20df603a0990f6adc0f23.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e2f1e0b5d8e0988a9152f3e03f906fb8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e764b12a04d66c99f8f7f020e351d803.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6bc761580a82afacba6815bc9db828bb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/30a6f94e1a4c83b93a075ed7e9c6fd53.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fdc4cb7ba71dbc535100154fc9329b61.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8bc7dbe7d0ab530abfd83a38a22ac4dd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c13824b1e51b383df3ab98a92e37e7f3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9a4acdc6ce33b317c274aad503c5d05b.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 510,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/510,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"20:57 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Susie Gallagher",,"Gallagher, Susie ; Dobandi, Susan",,"audio/mp3 ","Gallagher, Susie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Teachers -- Interviews; Gasoline pump industry; Automobile industry and trade; World War, 1939-1945; Blittzen Station","Susie Gallagher discusses her childhood and the family home she grew up in. She mentions becoming a teacher and taught school for several years. She and her husband purchased an inn and converted it to an automobile dealership and then to a gasoline station, known as the Blittzen Station. She also talks about her three sons who served in World War II.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-05-18,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 26",,"Dobandi, Susan","Gallagher, Susie",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Susie M. Gallagher
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 18 May 1978
Susan: Mrs. Gallagher, could you start telling us a little something about your parents, where they came from, and some of your earliest recollections of your childhood and, ah, continue with where you went to school and so forth?
Mrs. Gallagher: Well, I was born in my great-great-grandfather’s home. Five generations of my family have lived in that house, and he came originally from Nantucket Island, from there to the city of Hudson and from there to the—to the Dunham Hill Road, and bought up a large tract of a timber land, virgin timber, because he knew all about ship building, and he had grown-up sons to help him cut the trees, and he hewed them out and had them shaped just ready to go into the ships that was being built, and he established a quite a business for himself making the shingles and the little things called shooks that they put together shipboard to put the whale oil in. And when he first went there the neighbors around helped him build a log house because there had, nobody ever had lived there, and later on the land became cleared and he built a New England-style house—salt box shaped which was, ah, to me a very charming place, and ah, I feel that I had such a happy childhood. No Queen of England could have enjoyed it more than I did, but now it's all grown back up to timber again. It's all woods almost everywhere. The house is still there but it looks like a junk pile and there is another small house has been built in the rear of it and it's a place that I don't even like to look at anymore. That's what, ah, evolution has done to that place.
Susan: Mrs. Gallagher, let's continue and tell us what it was like when you were a little girl growing up in that home on Dunham Hill Road that your hus—that your father built for you.
Mrs. Gallagher: Well, I'll tell you what it was like in the wintertime. In the wintertime we practically lived in the kitchen. It was a large kitchen. It had a lounge in it. It had a built-in bookcase with drawers below that, and it also had a recess in the wall that the clock fit into. And we had a—to go down cellar, we had a, I guess it's called a trap door. There was a big iron ring in it, you pulled that door up and went down cellar that way, but also there was a—a cellar entrance outside that was called a cellar hatchway and, ah, that was used in the summertime. Now what else was there?
Susan: About your summer kitchen.
Mrs. Gallagher: Oh, then there was a walk led from the kitchen door out to a—a porch that went into a summer kitchen. It was quite a large building. It had, ah, in it, everything. It had a, a good iron range. It had a, almost like what we'd call a kitchen cabinet now, all made by hand where you put the—the cornmeal and the flour and the, all of those things, and the cupboard—a tall cupboard that stood on the floor. It had a long, ah, what's called a dry sink. It was wood but it was a long sink, you could set your dish pan and other things into it, and it had a spout that you could turn the water off if you wanted to and it would go outside if you'd want it to, it would go outdoors. We also had a grandfather clock in that summer kitchen, and just as soon it got warm at all, we moved out there to cook and eat there all summer long, and we put a carpet on the floor of the kitchen in the house and used that for a sitting room in the summertime. But we had a very nice parlor and it had small panes of glass, and when my son saw the picture he said, “Oh, we have twelve over twelve.” That means twelve panes of glass over twelve panes of glass, which was considered, ah, high class on the island of Nantucket. He was—he was so thrilled when he saw that, and well, there was a cupboard—a little bedroom, right near the head of the stairs there was a little bedroom. The roof slanted in it and you could go in there, turn around, in the corner there was a window and then there was a cupboard built in there of shelves and below that a cupboard with a door, and the handle on the door was made of scrimshaw. Scrimshaw is what the sailors made out of ivory when they were on the whaling voyages, and it's a hand that’s clasping a little, a round stick, and when our old home was sold I took that off and I now—it is now in my son Wendell's home on a corner cupboard that he has.
Susan: Tell us what you did when you were a little girl. How many people lived in that house with you?
Mrs. Gallagher: Well, when my mother was married and went there my great-grandfather had passed away, but his daughter who had lived with him was still there, so she had the parlor part of the house and the bedroom upstairs, and my mother had the kitchen and the pantry and a bedroom and the small bedroom upstairs, that part of the house, and I can't even remember Aunt Elizabeth because I wasn't old enough when she had a slight stroke and she went right back to Hudson because she wanted to be buried where her mother was and her—the rest of her family in Hudson.
Susan: Now getting back to, ah, Broome County here on Dunham Hill Road. What was life like for you then?
Mrs. Gallagher: It was a mile to walk to the school. You had to go up a hill and then it was a long stretch, it was nice and level, then you went down a little hill and up another hill, then there was a level stretch and you went up another hill, all that, on the way to school. The school house was a—a very nice building. It was one room, of course, but it had a separate hallway for the girls on the left side, on the right side was a hallway for the boys. Then there was a circle seat between those two closets or hallways, whatever you call them.
Susan: How many classes did they have?
Mrs. Gallagher: How many what?
Susan: How many grades? How many grades did they have?
Mrs. Gallagher: Oh—in a country school you had everything from the baby class to the graduation class, all grades in a country school, and 26 families sent their children to that school, and we had very very nice teachers and that is why I wanted to be a teacher. I admired those teachers so much I said, “I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to be a teacher,” and I stuck to it and I taught for six years in Johnson City and I taught a couple years in a country school and I didn't like the country schools—too hard to teach all those grades.
Susan: Where did you receive your schooling?
Mrs. Gallagher: I went to Binghamton Central one year. I went to Johnson City High School two years, and then I went to a teachers’ training school and then—
Susan: Where was that located?
Mrs. Gallagher: That was located in Whitney Point, and then I went to Cortland summer school and I had just passed Regents Examinations, until I obtained a State Certificate, the last one that ever was issued. I came in under the line. So, well—we, in our family there were two boys, then two girls, and then two boys, and we all left home, it seems, when we were about 18 years old, you know, when we left, and it's hard to keep young people on the farm. They had bigger ideas, but we all loved to get back there. There were so many nice things on that farm. There was a pond. There was a spring, and when my father was a young man he had made a terrace around, all around the edge of that, and we could sit on that and always put frogs in it. We always called it the frog spring. Then there was a fence, a cow pasture fence, and the spring continued on under that fence where the cows and horses came to drink.
Susan: Well, can you remember what you did for your social life when you were a young girl growing up on the farm?
Mrs. Gallagher: Well, then when I got older we went to Castle Creek. We had lots of parties in Castle Creek and we went to the Baptist Church in Castle Creek, but there were a lot of girls in the country school, you know, that we enjoyed, so we had plenty of social life.
Susan: Well, now tell us about how you got into that business with your husband.
Mrs. Gallagher: Oh, on the corner down here?
Susan: Uh huh.
Mrs. Gallagher: Well, if I even, when I passed by that old hotel on the corner of Front and Prospect St., which I always had to go by when I came to Binghamton, if I ever could have dreamed that I'd ever have lived in that place I would have said you’re out of your mind, but I lived there twelve years and a half in a very nice apartment over the business place which went from a used car business—
Susan: Well, let's—let's mention here that it started out as an Inn before you had purchased it.
Mrs. Gallagher: Oh, uh huh. It—it was a very old—a very old hotel. It was famous, you know, probably it was well over a hundred years old, you know. It was an old building—the only thing I remember hearing about it was there was a man there, a proprietor named Cap Hasley, and I guess “Cap” meant “Captain.” They always called him “Cap Hasley.” Maybe some people living that would remember—still remember something about it, but it had a “For Sale” sign on it, so Mr. R.J. Bump bought the place and set my husband up in business there. It was planned for selling used cars. They put in one gas pump in there, because people, ah, needed the convenience, and surprisingly they sold a lot of gas, and it, eventually they gradually went out of the used car business and put in more pumps and they were in the gasoline business.
Susan: Well, then it prospered until the highway came along.
Mrs. Gallagher: Then it was a very good business for a long time, until the highway was changed and they took the old Prospect St. out entirely and the service station was gone. Then my husband died and my son took over the business, but they—they built a smaller station because when the—when the government took over the property, they left a little piece of land in there shaped like a piece of cheese. No access to it in any kind of a way, but my son and I finally decided that the smartest thing to do would be to buy more land in there and build a smaller station there, which is what we did, which is now there at the present time.
Susan: That's called the Blittzen Station.
Mrs. Gallagher: Well, my husband named it the Blittzen Station years ago when he first started, the name has been kept.
Susan: Well, tell us about your family. How many children did you have, Mrs. Gallagher?
Mrs. Gallagher: Well, my father’s name was Robert Stevens Hall and my mother's name was Lucy Mirrah Howard and they met in the country school, and when they were married my great-grandfather had passed away and his daughter was still living there, so she had part of the house and my mother shared a part of the house with her and, ah, she had a stroke, a slight stroke, which worried her, and she just made plans to go as fast as she could, get there out to the city of Hudson, where her sister lived and where her mother was buried, and she died there. Then my father bought the place. Did I have my father's name in there?
Susan: Hall, wasn't it?
Mrs. Gallagher: And eventually they had six children. They had Harry and Claude, then they had Susie and Marjorie, and then they had William and Ray, and that was my family.
Susan: Now how many did you and Mr. Gallagher have?
Mrs. Gallagher: Well, I married Robert J. Gallagher and we had three sons. Our oldest son, Robert, was killed in the South Pacific in the Second World War, and my three sons were all in the War in 1942, all three of them, and one was crossing the Atlantic chasing subs, the other was over in the Pacific and he was stationed in Australia quite a while. Well, when it was all over and they came home my son Gordon decided he'd be a dentist, so he went to college in Scranton and five years in the University of Buffalo. And my son Wendell went to Syracuse University Art School. He graduated with the highest honors in the class, but he found that there wasn't much of any way to make a living in that line so he went to work for his father, and after his father passed away I inherited everything, but I finally gave the Front St. business to my son Wendell, which he is still carrying on.
Susan: Well, thank you very much, Mrs. Gallagher, for the interview. It has been nice talking with you.
Mrs. Gallagher: I've enjoyed it.
",,,,"20:57 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Susie Gallagher",,,,1978-05-18,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Gallagher, Susie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Teachers -- Interviews; Gasoline pump industry; Automobile industry and trade; World War, 1939-1945; Blittzen Station",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d99e75132b2956762a3e55c4a95bf017.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d66a9bd1a126136b832f7c0184370dce.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/18f8d5c43ec197f005d8bfbf50c4c56e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f896e814b33b5793fda3700366028752.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0155b3b5eca256c30044b09dc7e0c1f8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8086db6ce65d652c26210bb194af00e9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3ed2eda72f93ccec00230b405b99edeb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/07e5ab85688b35c582cabd5fc7cdeb3f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d11abd764094adf3049a3899339467e4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/48b575f2326b337101abc390f9e0b077.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/844cccaf7db89c5b812f6d791f6fe35d.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 499,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/499,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"29:47 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Angelina Cinotti",,"Cinotti, Angelina ; Politylo, Nettie",,audio/mp3,"Cinotti, Angelina -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Cider industry; Family-owned business enterprises; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Cider Mill; Cider Mill Playhouse; Italians","Angelina Cinotti talks about her family and her parents emigration from Chicano, Italy and the family's service for Endicott-Johnson after settlement. She discusses her siblings' professions and the development of the family's business - The Cider Mill - which is still a prominent historical spot for locals and schoolchildren. It now also hosts the SUNY theatre in the Cider Mill Playhouse.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-05-26,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 13",,"Politylo, Nettie","Cinotti, Angelina",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Angelina Cinotti
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Date of interview: 26 May 1978
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Angelina Cinotti of 600 Oak Hill Avenue, Endicott, NY, on May 26, 1978. Ang, will you tell us something about your life and experiences in the community?
Ang: Well, my parents came from Chicano, Italy—that's a little town near Rome. They were very poor peasant people—so, Pa said he wasn't going to bring up his family to live as poor as he was. So, he heard about America, so he got some money, enough money together for just his trip to come and see what it was like. So, he went first to Scranton, PA, and worked on the railroad, I think, it was—I'm not too sure—and he stayed, he worked long enough to make enough money to send for my mother and my three brothers, who were born in Chicano, Italy, too: Tony, Philip and Lawrence. I think Tony was something like 10, Philip was 8, Lawrence maybe was 7, or 6 or 7, they were—maybe over, I'm not sure—but they came with my mother. It took them, I think, twenty days on the ship—it's a long trip—nothing like it is now, eight hours—and they went to Scranton. My mother hated it. She didn't unpack her trunk for a year because she was going back. Well, anyway, things weren't that great in Scranton. They heard about this Endicott where you could work, I think in the shoe—some of the shoe factory—
Dominick [Ang’s husband]: —shoe factories—
Ang: You could work in the shoe factories and tannery there and make a better living there—so they came here and they liked it—so they built a house on Squires Ave. and there were seven of us altogether. Ah—my sister Mary was the first one born in America—then there’s Louis, me and Angelo—that's five boys and two girls. So, they all grew up and worked in EJ—that was the only place that—language barrier, you know—you couldn't get jobs except if you could work with your hands. And, after the boys grew up and learned a little more, the language—and Tony was the first one to go out and get into the coal business—from there, he bought some property on Nanticoke Ave., and on this property was an old cider mill that wasn't being used. And—ah—he took that out, cleaned it up, and started to make cider. The farmers used to come down on Saturday and bring their own apples and they'd make the cider—they charged something like 5 cents a gallon, put it in barrels, and the business grew and grew—and then they invested in a larger press because the one they had was, you know, real old-fashioned, ah—not very efficient—and it got better and better every year and it was going along fine, then Tony died in an accident. The boys took over the business. They got into the oil business and the boys kept up the cider business—Orlando, especially, is the one that, ah—that was more interested in it.
He had remodeled and it's going fine, and then one year, there was a bad fire and it burned down—all the old-fashioned—you know, all the nice atmosphere—yeah—but ah—they didn't know what to do—whether to just close it down, but then, the man from the New York State, ah—that have, you know that they have the Places of Interest—came down and asked if they wouldn't keep it open—because it was something unusual to have a cider mill around, you know, so they rebuilt it and I guess, you know, it was going fine. One day—I don't know if it was a student or one of the people from SUNY—came, looked around. He said, “Gee, it was a nice place to have a summer theater."" Orlando showed him the big warehouse space, way in the back, and when they saw that, they knew. That's how the summer theater started there. They came down, fixed it all up, and that's how they got the summer playhouse.
Nettie: Ang, going back to the cider mill—can you tell me the procedure, how they made the cider there?
Ang: Yeah, let's see, I used to see them—there's like a conveyor—the apples go up this conveyor, and all while the apples are going up the conveyor, there's water running down, washing the apples—they had to be washed. [Chimes ringing.] Then the apples would be, would be dumped into a grinder, big grinder, after that's ground up, just like, almost like, ah—a food blender that you have, and then they would open up that container and let that mash fall on onto these big cloths that were under the press—no—this would be the press—this cloth—and they would let this pulp fall on there, and there would be a press that would squeeze the juice, and the juice would be gathered into a barrel. That's how you make your apple cider.
Nettie: That was very interesting!
Ang: Very simple. And nothing—you know—that 's what's nice about it—pure apple juice—yeah.
Nettie: I also noticed you sold vegetables. Did you—doughnuts?
Ang: For a while we tried the vegetables—oh! Doughnuts was the big thing. They decided to try the doughnuts for one year—and that really was a big success. The people would come in—we couldn’t keep up—I used to work there—and we couldn't keep up with the customers, they would be—three and four deep—wanting those hot doughnuts. They tried vegetable produce, that didn't go over so well—
Nettie: They had supermarkets for that.
Ang: Yes—well—that was a nice thought, but—
Nettie: Did you get involved in the actual making of the doughnut?
Ang: No, no, I never did. You could see them make it—you know—if you go down there—the machine does most of the work.
Nettie: You had a, quite a variety.
Ang: Yeah—cinnamon, plain, sugared—then they’d make the candied apple—they’d make them right there. Yeah.
Nettie: How were the prices?
Ang: Oh, I haven't worked there for about five years—I don't know.
Nettie: How about the prices then?
Ang: The apples were two for 25 cents—I think. The donuts were like $1.20 a dozen—but gone up a lot now. Cider, about 80 cents a gallon—now, a lot more.
Nettie: Ang, when your brother first bought the original cider mill, were they making cider?
Ang: They were not using it anymore—they—ah. He wasn't actually selling the cider—no, we never sold any—all it was, only customer milling—all it was, the farmers came in on Saturday and made their own. That’s all it was.
Nettie: It was a big business—
Ang: No, no. I remember once we had an idea. My brother Tony said, ""I wonder if we'd sell some cider here—you know, if people would buy it.” I said, “Let's try putting some out."" When we did, I then sold two gallons that day. After, you know, when it got, you know, when it got fixed up and everything, I think, too, how many gallons they did sell a day? I can't even—a lot.
Nettie: It was really prosperous—was very nice.
Ang: Yeah, it was funny because two gallons—
Nettie: Yes, from two gallons you got up to many thousands, right?
Ang: I think so. I'm sure they sold thousands of gallons in a day—easy.
Nettie: Did you tell me, this Chicano is where your people came from?
Ang: Uh—huh. Chicano.
Nettie: What year?
Ang: 1912—maybe. I could look on the passport—it's around that time. So that's all.
Nettie: Well, you went to the high school in Endicott, right?
Ang: Yeah, Union Endicott. Then my brother, Angelo went into business—he had the Endwell Motel in Endicott. Philip has always been an electrician, besides working in the factory. I don't know what else.
Nettie: You're involved in—how about telling me about the North Side? Do you have anything interesting to tell about—a long time ago?
Ang: Maybe. Dom [her husband] can tell you a lot about that. Just the side from how it has grown—this used to be a farm, where we live now, right here. Now we are in the middle of town—where all those houses are, we used to have cows—we used to take them to the pasture —now they’re filled up. When we moved up to this house they said, “You are up on a farm.” There was nothing here—this was the only house except Ketchak's.
Nettie: Ang, do you belong to any clubs?
Ang: Not really—church clubs. Choir.
Nettie: What church was that?
Ang: St. Anthony's. I was in the church choir for years—I always like to sing.
Nettie: Is there anything else you want to tell me?
Ang: Right now, I can't think of a thing.
Nettie: Ang, thank you very much for what you have told me. I appreciate it very much.
",,,,"29:47 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Angelina Cinotti",,,,1978-05-26,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Cinotti, Angelina -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Cider industry; Family-owned business enterprises; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Cider Mill; Cider Mill Playhouse; Italians",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5f0b3a3d0182b54c3f9d80b09fda00b1.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8ed368b677ce77f7c8f2fe450eaeb56d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4038b27dcd76b09d1cd3eb40b2b33f3b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/08db685f2c307b23e7a148a392bedf06.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d6b891c4412604cca12de3ced80bd3dc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4c0904fbbde12d1bf5b10e0eb218e637.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/18b8f46de1a62e6584ace8d2026091bc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/81122925ce4e4967eaef776f18c09e66.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f4a6300de290b25bb64b2d201c1ed32a.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 490,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/490,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"34:00 minutes ; 23:38 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dr. Carl S. Benson ",,"Benson, Carl E. ; Dobandi, Susan",,"audio/mp3 ","Benson, Carl S. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Physicians -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Colgate University; World War, 1939-1945; American Legion; Binghamton General Hospital; Lourdes Hospital; Hancock Hospital; Shriners; Lions Club International","Dr. Carl S. Benson talks about his upbringing and education in and outside of his hometown of Binghamton, NY. He attended Binghamton Central High School, Colgate University, and studied medicine in Buffalo, NY before working at the Erie Penitentiary during WWII then moving back to Binghamton to work as a cardiologist at Binghamton General, Lourdes, and Hancock Hospital. He also discusses his charitable work. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-06-08,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recordings 3A, 3B",,"Dobandi, Susan","Benson, Carl S.",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Dr. Carl S. Benson
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 8 June 1978
Susan: Dr. Benson, could we start this interview by having you tell us where you were born, something about your parents, and any of your recollections of your childhood?
Dr. Benson: That's easy. I was born on 5 King Ave., between Walnut and, ah, and it's on the west side. It's between, ah, Walnut and St. John. My mother and father came from Sweden—my mother from the north of Sweden and my father from the south of Sweden. Mother talked very much about having come from the place where the King used to spend his summers out in the open, and my grandfather, I realize now, was the man that insulated and fortified the iron mines of Sweden so that if anybody attempted to take over, they merely blew up the bridges and they had so much trouble getting the iron ore out that they never did.
They met here in Binghamton, my father being from the south of Sweden and my mother from the north. I always kidded mother about stealing her sister’s girl—boyfriend, but they had a rather happy life together ’til mother overdid and showed herself to me as a medical problem, which I had a lot of fun solving.
As for me, I went to St. John Ave. School. I had only one sister, Ruth, who was five years older than I was and followed the same trail, and the thing I think you would enjoy the most was that I was constantly reminded that I wasn't supposed to be relying on somebody else, I was supposed to dig it out for myself and I was supposed to keep going no matter what happened. My father was a tailor, so-called merchant tailor at a time when there wasn't any such things as ready-made clothes, and part of the fun was that I, in the early grades in school, wore tailor-made clothes, and often got in trouble with the teachers because they couldn't understand why the clothes I had on made so much noise with their corduroy knees banging each other, and actually asked me if I didn't have any other clothes I could wear to school. Today I'd like to have such good clothes back.
Work—I can remember the very funny things that happened, there was the time somebody stole our Thanksgiving dinner that we had carelessly put on top of the refrigerator, on top—on the back porch at 5 King Ave. We didn't get much to eat that day. It was a lot of fun. We had a lot of time trying to find it.
One of the stories that might interest you was that the man on the corner, who was a horse tailor, got after me to prove that he knew more about the things than I did and my father did, and said of course we grew horses and horses’ barns. He said, didn't I realize if I planted a cigar box and watered it regularly every day, in about six weeks it ought to come up and show me a horse barn that I could be proud of? So I tried it, and at the end of four weeks he told me, didn't I know the top from the bottom? So I dug it up and turned it over, and it wasn't ’til the six weeks were well up that—he never admitted, just said I got the wrong kind of cigar box. You see these queer things, for instance his office—his, where he fixed leather and did all this stuff was on State Street behind Sissons, and in front of it was the old canal. My father lives on—worked on the other side in the Bosket Block, and that was the way life was treated. They were both equal—now do we get a rest?
I started school at St. John Ave. School, and I can still see our kindergarten and our first grade where Bill and Ed Keeler and some of the—the rest of the boys were sure that if they took their hands and folded them around the side ways, they could see what was going on the room and it was just as good as having them sit, as well as having them sit on the edge of the stage—of the desk. One of the boys, Doff Kane, just followed one of the girls out of the kindergarten and it wasn't ’til two days later that we found out that he had gone on, and supposed to have been promoted anyway because he was older than the rest of us. Third grade was fine ’cause of the exercises, we got up on the desks. We gathered up books as being bricks, stones, and we went through all the stories of the Iliad, the Romans and their troubles, and threw the books on the floor just with a grand abandon that made it a great life. We really enjoyed Mrs. Tillapough's teachings. I could go on, teach and tell you about each of the other kids, each of the other teachers just as well, of course. Miss Hunt was the principal but we never had any trouble with her, we didn't know enough to. She kept us busy and we kept her busy and that's all that was necessary. ’Course, we had her nephew in the class with us. Maybe that helped us stay out of trouble.
From the sixth grade we moved over to Laurel Ave. under old Professor Johnson for our seventh—seventh grade, and that was when I used to ride a bicycle across to school. It was quite a ways down from where we were over to Laurel Ave. But that was when we had all the fun, nobody knew what to do, nobody cared. Then we went on to high school. We had the eighth, ninth and tenth, eleventh and twelfth over in high school. No, not the high school you people know about, but in the same place until we wore the building out, or they thought we did or said we wouldn't get a new one if they didn't stop using it, and then I remember when they decided to close it up. They put the letters, the colors and the letters of the class on the school. We got up on the fourth floor on the fire hatches, handed two-by-fours to throw down if the other class got in our way or started to come after us. Instead one of the boys got the fire hoses out of the Front Street fire department, and we had a grand time watching them walk up and chop those hoses to stop the water so they could get at us.
Now I got to get back to teaching at our school. It seems to me that I must have been along about the fourth or fifth grade when I started to, to doing some work on the outside. Maybe it was younger, but I was delivering flowers for Oshier up on 148 Court Street. If it was a long shag I got 10¢ for it. If it was a short shag I got 5¢, and he always used to kid me on how much money I took down at the end of the week for a guy that was just riding around on a bicycle. I would almost get, I think, on the average of five dollars, maybe a little less, maybe a little more, depending on how business was. Then he disappeared and I got shipped down to Graham. Graham's Florist Shop was in Wally Webster’s Drug Store, which was 45 Court Street, next door to the corner of Walnut—uh, uh, Washington Street and Court. Wally said the smart thing to do is to buy buildings next to the corners or where, if anybody was going to increase the size of their place, they'd have to take your place in—in that way you'd make money on any enlargement of the town without having too much invested—that was where I learned that if you stole old-time tombstones and you poured a little acid on them, that’d make pretty good soda, and that's what you gave people in place of soda on their ice cream. Ice cream was worth 10¢ or sometimes 5¢, sometimes less. Those were in the days when we used to see these special men come through. The automobile stage was just starting to grow, and there was one man that had a small two-seated or one-seated buggy but he had his wheels on, his pulling wheels on backwards, and therefore the horse was behind you and pushed you forward, and he took—took that, I imagine he'd go pretty fast too, but he was just advertising a new kind of ice cream or a new kind of soft drink. Made quite something to work with.
Then, I got interested in other work. The morning newspaper came along, ’course the business belonged to Carl Legg's father, and then he sold it and that brought it out in the open. When I used to go to dances in high school I'd used to have to get up before two o'clock, and we didn't get home much before that, in order to get over and roll the singles for the old morning paper. I'd roll about fifty of those and then lay down on the bags—the mail bags, then get up and carry the longest route up to the top of Mount Prospect and into the old tavern up Front Street next to Prospect Street. That's where they give you the description of the real early things that happened here in Binghamton.
My father and I used to argue a lot about Court Street bridges, boats, and spent a good many nice days in the summer pushing a rowboat up and down the Chenango River, borrowing it from Mr. Ritz, or renting it, rather, from Mr. Ritz at the corner of Laurel Ave. and the river. You never knew just what you were going to get into. We had one island that we called Violet Island. We had another island that was a little bit tough to get at, but you went out where the Fourth Ward sewer came in. You always got a little bit dirty. You went out, rode up, then down, and landed on an island. Dad and I always called it our island. Then we had to hunt up the other way. There was always something to think about. If you went up the Chenango, and I've tried and took my canoe, later, up to Port Dick and all the way to Lilly Lake and right up the river, right back down. I left it in Port Dick for a whole summer. I had a lot of fun. We'd sneak around behind a barn, loosed up underneath the barn, drop it into the water, then climb in, then go around the landing to show that we were there.
It's a wonderful thing and always we worried about the Chenango River, and then we remembered that there was an old man named Mr. Whittemore that got my interest first in steamboats, because he told me about the steamboat that used to come up the Chenango River—Susquehanna River and Chenango River from Owego every spring, did it for a number of years and the people came up and went down, but in my early days we usually caught the train at about eight o'clock on Saturday night, went down to Owego and then took the boat up as far as Ouaquaga, as Hiawatha Island, or on up further to the endings in Hickory Grove. That was a beautiful stretch in those days. I've heard them talk about it a good many times before my time, but I was too busy working to pay much attention to riding around in it. Then I remembered what Dad had told me about Court Street bridge. It seems that the boats used to come up and stop against those big trees that used to be back of McDevitt’s, so I had to find out about it. Find out what it was, what was happening, and why the end of it there was so little, not big enough, and I did, I stuck my neck in it. Before the bridge was finished or built, there was a ferry that used to come across there, and that tied up just above where the bridge came in and came across the river, almost straight, and stopped about where Main Street or Court Street is, and you could load and unload to catch the bridge, er, to catch the ferry. The next thing that happened was that they commenced to fuss about wanting to do something, and it was because they didn't like the way in which things were done. I know my Dad at that time said he had a chance to buy the old farm that ran all the way down to about where the Lourdes Hospital is and up as far as Leroy Street and down to the river and down to the junction and back up to about Leroy Street. Can't remember the name of the farm right now, but Dad was very seriously interested in buying it and he was going to get that land for $2,000. The people that sold it went over to Quaker Lake. They had a place over there too but I don't remember the name.
Then we had to worry about why all these strange things were set up around Main Street, and when I checked up, Sam Wear said his father had a bar there for years, in fact, he said there were five bars between Front Street and the Chenango River. Maybe that accounts for their going after the law, because I understand that's when they got to work—that's when they got to work and built the church at Wal—at, ah, Front Street and Main Street. It took me a long time to figure it out, then I found the ruling, any territory with a church in it cannot have a saloon or a bar within 125 feet of the front door of the church—now that old rule has been in for a long time and probably accounts for why four of the five things disappeared, unless somebody has forgotten the laws. The thing that counts in remembrance is that when we came to building the Sheraton, the Ramada, and the rest of the new hotels that were wanted to be near the water just across the bridge, they all of a sudden stopped and moved them a block away. I think I know the reason, because I looked up some of the deeds on lower Main Street and over on Front Street, and they all contained this record that no building can be put across south of Main and Front—er, Court Street, unless it's far enough away and unless there is an opening through it left down to the river so that people can take their animals to the ford and across the river. That's why you'll find that big mark in the bottom of the Treadway building. I remember also that we built a very lovely little park on the end of Wall Street, and Wall Street was connected with this other stuff but people all forgot it and it disappeared. I wonder how many people remember its name. It was Carmen Park, and while I'm speaking about parks, we had one over on the south side wherein there was a tree for every man killed in World War II and a nameplate on it, but I was over there the other day, and God, if we can go through big wars like World War II with no more losses than that, we better stick up in the first ranks, because I assure you I couldn't find enough trees or enough plaques to justify our even having been considered as being in World War II.
Now I think we ought to look up and see whether this new business about extending the high school and shutting off the ford, with kids coming from high school and with a parking lot and with some other things like that, can be done any better and any more legally than shutting it off for hotels and places to eat, particularly when the city is kinda short of money.
It was during these times when I was wandering around town that we all got wrapped up in cigar bands, and we used to argue as to whether it was smarter to stop in the cigar factories—which were on Wall Street, Water Street, State Street was solid from Court to Henry—and see if we couldn't buy, beg, or steal a few cigar bands that were out of the ordinary so we could make money. As a matter of fact, there was a lot of them that were so out of the ordinary that if you found the owner and he had a smile on his face, he would give you half a dozen and then your collection would be way, way above your friends. We had as many as 56 cigar factories around here, then they commenced to get into the factory kind where it wasn't made by hand, it was made by machinery, and the last one I remember being here into this part of the country was the General Cigar factory down on Court Street—er, Main Street, down near Johnson City—that worked for a few years. The problem was that we got much poorer tobacco for a while. If you've traveled up through Canada and seen the various shades of tobacco and seen the various kinds, you realize that it's not a bad crop to grow. It's quite nice, and if you've hunted around the old barns down below Owego and seen the openings in the sides of the barns where they drain and let the tobacco leaves dry, you will quickly get established in your own mind what a handy comfortable thing it is, but it requires a lot of work and we had just the people to roll them and not the people to grow them—maybe that’s why we lost it and then we had to get, so many of our women folks had to get tied up in cigarettes and anxious about cigarettes and they could buy them all rolled so they didn't look different, a lot cheaper, or rather a lot more expensively than we could cigars.
High school and schools in Binghamton, it seems funny to talk about them. There was a little girl named Alice VanMoon, and she beat me by half a point when we went up to St. John, er, to Laurel Ave., and on down into high school. I know I could have caught her, but she went and moved away. Oh, so I had to go on, and I graduated as Valedictorian, I think, when I graduated from high school. It was a big problem to remember because I was working all the time on the side, and despite the fact that I worked from 2 o'clock in the morning up ’til school time. I worked after school until 7 or 8 o'clock at night, I thought I was pretty darn lucky when I got in twelve-thirteen dollars a week—as an adult, maybe after I got into college, I realized more about it. I had $285.00 in my pocket when I left for college. If I hadn't been fortunate enough to find some friends up there who knew where the cheap places to eat were—because I remember the chap that went with me, he was a teacher afterwards at Cornell. We paid $1.60 apiece for two rooms—one to study in and one to sleep in—and around the corner we paid $4, and then $4.50, and then $4.60, and then $4.90, for a place to have our three meals a day in comfort. Of course it was the crowd that was there that made it interesting because many of them were inclined to head for the ministry, and many long were the sermons that got preached at us while we sat there waiting to see what was going to happen, but if anybody was hungry they were taken care of, and you could buy a roast beef sandwich for 10¢. You could buy—we were lucky from Binghamton. We could go over to the Candy Kitchen and Jimmy the Greek would say, ""I remember you."" We'd say, ""Yes, and we’re thirsty.""
""Wait a minute,"" and he'd give us an ice cream so we wouldn't feel too bad about it, and we appreciated his kindness. Money wasn't essential. Fifteen cents would take you to the movies. You could always borrow from somebody if you needed to. There wasn't enough girls, but what you had was a good alibi that there wasn't any girls to get so you didn't have one, and I think maybe that's the thing that made life worthwhile, because it certainly made us study a lot more than we would have otherwise. Then we would go on, and I still remember even at my decrepit old age that my first year in Colgate, from the time I left in September to go ’til I came back in June, having finished one year, cost me $496.16. I think maybe that's a record, because I remember my last year in medicine cost me over $1100 or pretty damn close, and I know that's not counting the fact that I worked in the fraternity house and I took care of the animals—the research animals for both physiology, biology. That's why I had to wear a mustache, because one of them got mad and caught me on the upper chin, er, upper lip, and it was a lot better having it covered by hair than not having it covered at all.
There are many stories I could tell you about the faculty of Colgate. It was one of the grandest bunch of men I ever knew despite the fact there were a lot of wonderful queer characters. There was Johnny Green, who always bobbed around at us, flashed his eyes back an’ forth and said that if he exercised his eyes enough, that he wouldn't have to wear glasses, and then he had a man who was his assistant, very big dignified fat man that always put his paws down in front of you as though he was going to bite you, Spencer, but he wouldn't. He'd scare the hell out of you. Then I could go on and talk about the rest. My particular sidekick in these days was Bill Turner, six foot tall, a big bass voice, a bachelor. He took care of his mother and sister and always acted as though something was going to push him around into something. He was so afraid that people would misunderstand him, get him into trouble. He even came to me once and said, ""I'm going to quit,"" and I said, ""Well, let me look things over a bit for you."" And I says, ""No, you're not going to quit. You're going to work a little harder than you have worked and you're gonna do it more this way and you aren't gonna get mixed up with so many people."" And when he came to me five years later and said, ""I'm gonna quit,"" I said, ""Yep, you’re gonna quit now, but not before. You hadn't finished your job."" It's a wonderful feeling to be able to say I helped a professor as much as they helped me, but I didn't, because he and his mother and his sister fed me Sunday night’s dinner for a good many years. God knows I couldn't sing, I couldn't do anything else, but I traveled with the Glee Club with the sublime feeling that I didn't have to worry because he told me, ""Make your mouth go big, smile good, and for God's sakes, if anybody’s out of tune, shut up.”
Now let’s stop a minute. It seems that along about my sophomore year in Colgate I got on the pan, and I never blamed them. I suddenly decided, figuring closely that they were going to let me have my degree in three years, why couldn't I do three years’ work in two and a half—get the degree? And to go on, I made the mistake that so many young fellows do, and old fellows maybe, of thinking that rubber stamping something and throwing it over your shoulder makes it get in your head. It doesn't, and I remember when Dr. McGregory and Dr. Bryant and Cookie Cutter and a few of the others, Brigham, looked at me point blank when I said I wanted to get through in three years, and they argued that it wasn't for my benefit to get through in three years—I'd do better if I stayed four—and I decided that eating those last year was kind of important and much more important than just getting through, so when Hog said that he wouldn't allow for it and he was objecting to it, I said, ""OK, Dr. McGregory, just for that, I'll major in your subjects and give you every opportunity to flunk me you can get."" He tried to talk me out of taking a couple of subjects instead. But I got through in three years, and they were probably the happiest three years I have ever spent, because Colgate is a beautiful, wonderful institution. I'm glad Craig went there.
Afterwards I was tempted or persuaded and almost sure that I was going to go to Cornell in order to get my medicine, but I looked around and I saw that Cornell started a class at Ithaca and a class in New York, and at the end of the year without saying anything you just became half out and half as big as you were before, so I didn't think that was very good, and then Sukie Higgerman said I was nuts. And I started for Buffalo where John, Dr. John Lappious, had helped me get registered. Well, I arrived out there on the train, then went up the street to High Street. I went in, they were very nice to me but I still don't know who saw me—who had anything to do about it, what happened to me, and I think maybe it was the fact that my class, instead of being seventy-six, succeeded in rounding up nineteen for our first year. So, you see, if they do raise the requirements there is a very definite reason for it. Then I had to snoop around and see if I could get a job. Didn't get anywheres on that ’til somethin’ happened down in the so-called jail and the Erie County Penitentiary because of the flu, because of the—because of the, and in came the flu—a most gorgeous mess. So, I had to eat and live, so John took me down to the penitentiary, and they looked at me and took off my soft hat—my, ah, cap, insisted I wear a soft hat—and I was fully signed in as a doctor in the Erie County Penitentiary, which became famous afterwards—after having had three weeks of medicine. Well the first thing I did was told I oughta clean up the drug room—so I started to, and got some nice little country boy. Didn't know why he was in jail, but he did the cleaning with me and helped me, and he'd light my cigars and gave me his tobacco. God, it was awful—couldn't touch it—but he was very proud of being an associate of mine. That was when I had my funny time, when I met the Diamond Lill fame—when I met a lot of other unusual people. Diamond Lill was an operator in a carnival, and in her teeth she had two diamonds—above and one below, so that she could smile as she did the loop the loop on a bicycle and hoped that she was sober to keep on the track. I always remember when they—Dr. Frost, who was in charge, said, ""Why hello—when did you—how long you've been back?"" and she says, ""Why, Doctor—why, you know—I haven't been out yet."" This was the kind of stories we would hear.
Then we found out if somebody got into a mess that they were more afraid than we were, so we went on and enjoyed it, and that's when I made a reputation, because the waiter, who was a prisoner, leaned over my shoulder one night and wanted to know if I had any good cathartics. I said, ""Yes,"" and rolled him off a half dozen of C.C. pills, asked if he knew how to take them and he said, ""Yeah,"" so I went on back to quarters. The next day I didn't have anybody waiting on me as a waiter, and the day after I didn't have anybody waiting on me as a waiter, but on the third day, when I sat down in my chair, I noticed that I was taken care of when the chief wasn't, and over my shoulder came a faint whisper saying, ""You sure do handle powerful drugs, sir.”
Buffalo—that's the place where I was supposed to learn medicine. I guess I did. Leastwise I'm still studying it to find out if I didn't. It's hard to understand the study of medicine. My sidekick, the first one, had been a chemist in Canada, got chased down by the police, so on and so forth, so he taught me chemistry and I was supposed to teach him, well, I guess the rest of the stuff. Another chap took the anatomy. I took physiology, pharmacology, and that's the way we divided up our work, so we all had the chance to pile in as much as we wanted to and learn from each other. My class in medicine started out as nineteen. We lost a bunch and brought a bunch up from Fordham University our sophomore year, and then we stayed about the same and only lost one, making it twenty-five instead of twenty-six our senior year, but then the fight came for internships, and what an interesting story it was. They wanted me to go to the Edward Meyer Memorial [Hospital] in Buffalo and I said ""No.” I wanted the General, and if I couldn't have The General, I was going down to Blockley in Philadelphia—of course I didn't know anybody in Blockley—I never did get there—I never saw the inside of the place, but Dr. Ryman from our class, from the class ahead of me, went down.
[End of Tape I]
[Tape II]
Dr. Benson: They gave me a royal ride also on internship, because they handed me a fraternity pin when I was already wearing a fraternity pin and asked me if I had lost that in the nurses’ home and would I please tell them which room it belonged in, for sarcasm. Oh, the full money that we were to receive for one year of work, starting at about 8:30 or 8 o'clock every morning and maybe getting one or two evenings after seven out, but otherwise knowing that we were on call all night long, was a very valuable swapping proposition. We got three suits of white clothes. I don't imagine they would be, would be worth something today. I think they were linen, but in those days we didn't think much of them. No socks, no underwear—we had to find that from someplace else—and four meal—three meals and a lunch, and we went on pretty well living but it was damned embarrassing. You didn't have any money to spend.
You didn't have any cigars unless you inherited them or somebody gave them to you. Cigarettes were out of question and the nurses got more money than we did, but it was fun. I always remember that at 10 o'clock at night they came around with lunch, usually big pieces of chocolate cake, and after Mary Storm, the night superintendent, had gotten in wrong, the second time we posted ourselves in very advantageous positions, and when we saw her coming, somebody yelled and we all ran out in the hall looking back—looking the other way—and turn around suddenly, and we actually hit her broadside with no less than nine out of the twelve pieces of chocolate cake. Nice treatment for a supervising nurse. I got the blame for the whole thing and rightly so.
Then we had to have some parties. ’Course we were learning a lot, and at the parties we took, yes, we took the big machine TV—we took it upstairs to the private operating room and we had a dance and a lovely concert and a lovely time. We pushed the thing out on the roof to hide it, and the only thing they got mad at was, they were afraid we were trying to start a fire to roast some hot dogs on the roof and they couldn't see the sense that we could stake the fire out. Then I got caught riding down the aisle with so and so on my shoulder when I walked into Mary Storm, the night superintendent—of course the fact that we had stolen the liquor from the training school office the day before didn't make any difference. She wanted to talk to the girl, so I put her down in front of her and let her talk. When I heard she was sending the girl home the next day, I went to the training school office and said, “Don’t blame the girl, blame me—she had nothing to do, she was just sitting on my shoulder.” So, it was fun.
The next year—my second year I went out to Meyer Memorial, and what a glorious time I had. I was supposed to have three months of contagion, three months of TB, and six months of medicine, especially cardiology. What did I end up with? I ended up with one month added on, of venereal diseases. I ended up with two months off from contagious diseases. I ended up with particular care on pediatrics, which is a whole lot of kids, and I ended up with most of the rest of my time on cardiology and doing it all, oh, yes, one month I was in Boston. It was a lot of fun but you never knew what was gonna happen to you the next day, and then I finished and the big scramble came. Dr. Green said I was getting hospitalized. I was having too good a time in hospitals, and time I got out and earned a living. The rest of them didn't dare disagree with him because he was the chief, so I did, and the first thing I knew, I was running a sanitarium in Dansville that belonged to doctors. That was when they looked at me and said that anybody [who] could vault over the cushions and seats and chairs and couches in a fashionable place, or turn somersaults over them, certainly couldn't know medicine. Of course I lost those patients, but I made up for it, and travel I did, back and forth, all around, and finally I came back to Binghamton. That’s when I had my big surprises—even my father seemed to think it was time I went to work, and Mother couldn't understand why I took two weeks of sitting on the hills around the town thinking, figuring out what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it and how I was going to do this and how I was going to do that. I started to set up an office on 104 Oak Street, I well remember to this day. My mother decided that, ah, in as much as they had helped educate me and do things for me, that I was going to supply her with amusements for the rest of her life because she was going to sit and watch me work—of course, that didn't work. She got mad at me because I tried.
Then Harry came down from Buffalo, tried to give me a check for $50,000 to set up the kind of an office I wanted. I could easily have spent the money but I didn't think I should, because after all, so far all I had received from running the sanitarium was a couple of, three, four blank checks asking me to please put my amount—they were all signed down—and tell them how much I wanted for my work. Nobody ever raised any questions about it and I went over the stuff in the kitchen every day to see if there was anything better I could eat. Didn't do much good, though, ’cause Dr. Goodell's wife was with me as superintendent or something, and then W. George left me and the fellow that come in his place [who] was supposed to be trained as a hotel man happened to be a Christian Scientist, and I've heard that I had the ability to drive anybody nuts, but the next day, when I watched him plunge from a six-story building down onto the ground and splatter around the floor, I wasn't too happy. I hated to think it was my fault. It really wasn't, but it's something I'll never forget by the fact in that time I had an all—all-American swimming instructor. She didn't like me and I didn't care very much for her, but I had one, and I had a staff that was quite remarkable. The old place had established the Boulaire Baths. I had a training school office of about twelve, and I was supposed to teach physiotherapy massage and the various things, I don't know—I think it was just something to keep me from being lonesome, but then I went on home just because they were unkind enough to try to move my folks up to the sanitarium and give them private quarters just to be with me.
Now we ready to start the practice of medicine. My God, when you start to think about it, I remember the first thing I did was to talk to the man at Norwich Pharmacal, and he came up and he said, ""Well you'll need a lot of this and a lot of that and a lot of this and a lot of that."" He said, ""I've got a wife that's sick. I want you to take care of her."" And I did, and we both fared pretty good. I fared better than he did. His wife died, and I still found some medicine from there the other day when I shut the place up and my office died.
Then I became fascinated in studying the various things that happened. I never did find out where I got all the degrees I got after my name. I know there are two others I can't even think of, but somebody told me if you got enough of the alphabet dearranged, never had to know any of it because you'd say, ""Yeah, I think so,” and that would be more important than trying to be smart. Yes, I've spent a lot of time hanging around Rochester trying to learn somethin’, and even when I was out in the west, out to Ann Arbor, and when the man that was supposed to have this nice course in electrocardiography looked at me and said, ""What the hell do you want to take it for? You know more about it than I do now,"" I didn't agree with him, or it made me feel awful good to hear him say it.
Money—they tell me I've made a lot of it, lost a lot of it. I think the funniest thing was in World War II—er, World War I—when I got back from World War I, Uncle Sam wrote me a letter and said, ""We don't think you're able to afford to put as much of your money into insurance as you are doing."" I never argued with them. I think he was right but the funny part is that insurance has all disappeared and then the other batch that I had, that's disappeared, so maybe someday somebody will find a way to have me put away insurance as they say I can't now. Nobody ever had more fun in medicine than I did. Nobody ever worked any harder. It's not a plaything. It's a real honest-to-God tough job, but the satisfaction of knowing that you're doing something for other people to help them is the greatest satisfaction in the world. Yes, here in town I had the cardiology at the Binghamton General Hospital. I was on cardiology at Lourdes. I was offered the job of laboratory man at Wilson and at the General. I was a cardiologist at Hancock, but the fun was in trying to diagnose and make up the things when nobody else knew what to do and how to do it. What you did for the cases was easy, but trying to understand them was difficult. I don't know, if I had it to do over again I think I’d probably do the same damn fool thing. Thank you.
Oh, by the way, I have had a couple things that have kept me busy, one of them for the last nineteen years. I took care of the blind for the Lions Club, yeah, for the club—
Susan: —Lions Club—
Dr. Benson: —Lions Club, or rather I took care of Mrs. DeWitt, because I started back in the beginning when she lived downstairs under me in my home. Then we had a disagreement, not Mrs. DeWitt, but I and the Lion's Club, so I disappeared, and after that, out of a clear sky, after having spent some time in the Masons and gotten up into the Shrine back around in 1928, I was suddenly got told that I was no longer Medical Director, but I was in charge of the Charities, and what a surprise that was for me—that meant that I had to hunt up the kids that might be damaged by burns, and believe it or not, one of the hospitals that I represent is the only hospital in the world that ever brought back a child 91% burned. The rest of them think they're damn lucky if they can bring back 50% or 35%. I've made many trips to Boston and to some of the other hospitals and I've had them all do work for me on the burn kids, and then before
that we had nineteen orthopedic hospitals. That didn't seem enough to me, anyway, no matter what I found that was wrong, I usually was able to decide it was orthopedic, and you'd be surprised how much my training taught me to make the other fellow think twice. I haven't made as many trips this year, but a little while ago I kept track of them. I think I've gotten stuck in the snow down around Boston at least six times. I think I've been down through over the Hudson when it was frozen solid four or five times, and I get to the clinic once a year, and most people can't understand why my hobby is helping to spend forty-nine million dollars a year and I don't think it keeps me busy. I'm willing to have some help, but the thing that interests me is that very few people understand that this isn't just, ah, patch-me-up stuff. This is a thing of building people, kids, and trying to make them live happy and enjoy things. Sure, it takes longer than it does if you're going to just give them a kick up and let them startle them, but I think it's the greatest charity in the world. What do you think about it?
Susan: Well, I think it's remarkable what you've done, and I think you oughta mention that you have several awards for your work and that you were Man of the Year in 1973—was it?
Dr. Benson: All right, if it will make you any happier.
Susan: Well, you deserve some credit.
Dr. Benson:They're urging me to talk about awards. I don't know whether I told you, I have 21-22 letters dearranged after my name. It isn't enough to make an alphabet, but some of the letters I've got so many of I don't know what to do with. The other thing they kid me about is brass plaques. Yes, I've got a bunch of them. When you're young they're important, when you’re old you wonder if you're worth it. I've, yes, this last year I received the award from the American Legion—Man of the Year—then found out that on ‘73 I had the Shriner of the Year from Kalurah, then I got a whole lot more of them, but the thing I think you ought to get is to come along and see the fun and find out how much fun work is when you do it right.
Susan: Well, thank you very much, Dr. Benson. It's been very enjoyable talking with you.
Dr. Benson: Well, now, there is a lot more if you want it, so if you get stuck just call me.
Susan: Fine.
Dr. Benson: And we’ll try and see if they’re—because, I don't know, ah, for instance, somebody might get somewheres, like taking a film like this—why I enjoyed being a doctor—
Susan:That's right.
Dr. Benson: Why I don't want to be a lawyer, do you see what I mean?
Susan: Right.
Dr. Benson: And I think you might get further ahead with such ideas. Put down a list and then half a dozen of us go through what we can add or take off of it on each one, and then go ahead and get it dictated by someone that you can pick out as being the person that will do the best job, because that's what you gotta do.
Susan: Well, certainly if I know someone in trouble, you’re the man to call, Dr. Benson. Thank you again.
Dr. Benson: You’re entirely welcome.
Susan: This is Susan Dobandi, interviewer, and I have been talking with Dr. Carl S. Benson, who lives at 109 Murray Street, Binghamton, NY. The date is June 8, 1978.
",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dr. Carl S. Benson",,,,1978-06-08,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Benson, Carl S. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Physicians -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Colgate University; World War, 1939-1945; American Legion; Binghamton General Hospital; Lourdes Hospital; Hancock Hospital; Shriners; Lions Club International",,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ddb07acd611939785923791fd2eeaf3e.pdf,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ff3332aa443b300f60d6fcd8d50afc2c.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/42607e87dfe531aec07be626b10d3ffc.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 500,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/500,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"24:24 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dominick Cinotti ",,"Cinotti, Dominick ; Politylo, Nettie",,audio/mp3,"Endicott Johnson Corporation Housing Program; Cinotti, Dominick -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Endicott (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Workers Medical Service","Dominick Cinotti of Endicott, NY talks about his grandfather, father, and uncle's emigration from Italy. He discusses the railroads and trolley cars as their means of transportation, the development of the downtown and business district of Endicott. He worked for the Endicott Johnson Corporation and mentions the medical and home ownership programs provided by the company. He also tells anecdotes from his childhood.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-06-08,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 14",,"Politylo, Nettie","Cinotti, Dominick",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Dominick Cinotti
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Date of interview: 8 June 1978
Nettie: Dominick, will you give me some recollections of Endicott, please?
Dominick: Well, I can start with my grandfather when he had first come here the first time—and ah—two of his older boys, my father and my Uncle Dan—ah—they usually came to pay some debt off—you know—in the old country or to make things better for 'em at the time, and ah—
When they got here, my grandfather was always telling stories about how they had to, ah—get from one section to another and depend on the railroad, you know, to get them there, either by hand cars or hop rides. Most of the time—[chimes ring]—they’re these, they were what they call section hands—like, between Apalachin, Vestal and into Lestershire where it crossed the Susquehanna River—time, most of this was done, as I say, with a hand car. If they had to get up there, usually on Sundays for Mass, they would start either from Apalachin or Vestal all the way to Lestershire on Main Street, Johnson City, ah—St. James Church—is the one—was the only Catholic church around, I guess, at the time, outside of Binghamton, and ah—they would go back and forth and there was stories, like sometimes, if they happen to walk the rails there and there were two fast freights or whatever coming through—they would have to stand sideways and just about be blown off the track and miss. That's one of his favorite stories, and how he could’ve gotten killed—and ah—there was quite a few accidents that way there—you know—you never watch them because when the trains would pile down on you. I remember—well, something that just came to my mind now, like our Oak Hill Ave. crossing was very dangerous—with the same effect there—cars were becoming numerous, and there was—later on they had watchman going on there—and ah—then there was quite a few accidents—you know—just by these darn crossings at the time, which was another thing—at the, say—ah—like they had to get from different places, and they spent time on the Lehigh railroad, which was another one between Owego, Newark Valley and Ithaca, and this Ithaca, there was a small town they would call Caroline—I guess it's still there today, outside, it’s between Richford and Ithaca—I guess, when you get off that area—there's been stories of these railroads—this is long before Endicott even existed, I guess, you know, a few years.
It might’ve been a trip back to the old country that they would come back, because I guess they would try and the money ran out and they would try and get and make a life for themselves. So, with the two boys when they got interested in this and that. I remember my grandfather working on Washington Ave., and I mentioned the casino, I think, there they used to—call was put out by the, what they called “The Binghamton Railway Company” at one time, and they did this so they could get people to ride the trolley cars, which was another fascinating thing, you know, trolleys between Binghamton and all the way down to Ideal Park. Everything—you know at the time—there, before Endicott Johnson there, they had a pavilion that I could remember. The funny thing about these pavilion attractions, they had mirrors that would be squatty or elongated—I guess every kid in the Endicott area would remember this stuff. Well, going back to my grandfather, and my uncle and my father, when they first started to build Washington Avenue, it started from scratch—which was meadowland—and then they put that street in—originally Washington Avenue, the business section was supposed to be McKinley Ave.—this is why McKinley Ave. is wider than any other streets—coming through there, and this, the trolley tracks were supposed to come up to the North Side—believe or not—over that viaduct they had there—it was the only viaduct, I just remember that—so they did put the business district more to the west than it happened to be—ah—Washington Ave.—they ran that spur right down Washington Ave.—trolley spur would go all the way into McKinley Ave., and that was it. About that time is where, this was where IBM or the original Bundy was being built then—my uncle, I remember one of them, was running wheelbarrows up the second floor and up to the sections there, just loaded down—where they could just put that concrete up—it was all done by hand at the time—this is the way he always mentioned, you know, about working on these darn planks—a lot of people—just a lot of wheelbarrows would just hurl down—because they couldn't make it, and this is the original IBM—if you say, this is a little off the corner—wasn't really on North Street, just a little further in—then across, where the Laboratory is now, in the building there, there was a Peerless Dairy—I guess at the time—that, I guess most of the kids could remember that part of that burned down at one time, and then along North St., I remember, there was a old garage, they used to fix cars there in that section—but that is all changed now. In fact, I'd say—Endicott today, if it ever got any bigger there I'd wouldn't like it—I don't think, most of the natives don't. It's getting to be like a city—traffic—whole Triple Cities area. More people are finding it's a good way of life here, especially the New York City people. In fact, I think I'm responsible for a couple of doctors moving in this area. My brother gave me a call from Georgetown, once, right before graduation. There was a white doctor, so as to speak—reason I say “white,” because Wilson Memorial was getting all these foreign, Indians, and—not Koreans, but in that Filipino like the rest of these two—come up and intern so—ah—Ernie called me up one afternoon, he said, ""Show them the Triple Cities,"" which I did, you know—and he liked it. He was from Staten Island—he had a child—and his wife was ready for another one, I guess, and he was graduating and he took one look at this area, from Staten Island, you know, he liked it very much. He's a prominent doctor—physician, in fact he went right into EJ—went into residence, he's a good internist now—his name is Dr. Ponterio, and he came up because through, my brother would tell him stories about the Triple Cities, and through him—there's been another doctor—another dentist, I guess, was Dr. Cargoza, that came right up from that Staten Island area, so you can see the influx of the Triple Cities—by these city physicians and professional men that are getting out of New York City—to come up in this area. That's very prominent—I noticed—oh—what else can I say?
Can I talk about, about EJ? Now I'll start right in. The way we started off with EJ—I know I spent 47 years with the company. I can say that we were treated fairly well—outside the knowledge—that people—you know that they might knock the company. I can say for their medical program, and if it wasn't for Endicott Johnson, I guess, I, because my father died young—I was left with two sisters, two brothers and a mother. During the Depression there—we had a hard time—through this EJ Medical program, you know, you couldn't really look for a job in any way—then most of the people in the area, you know, it was a program, free dental, free medicine. In fact, I know people who were flown down to St. John Hopkins—then they had something like, well, TB, was years ago very prominent, if you will recall. They even had a place outside of Saranac Lake, over there, where they used to send workers, which was quite prevalent—I'd say, where some of the workers were down there—it was nothing to spend thousands of dollars on them—whatever it was. I remember one case—I'd say, a girl on Murphy Ave—wasn't it? Or somewhere where a young girl was burned almost—I'd say about 60% of her body, and it was through plastic surgery—thousands, thousands of dollars—on these hospitals—it’s things like this that are unheard of—I know it will pass through records—you know, people will forget very easily.
Well, say, well, when my father first come—we'll get right back to, ah—the way they built their house—was on Endicott Johnson. Now this is before they gave EJ homes—I mean—before they got that started—they gave away land, and through Endicott Land Company. Outside corner lots—you had to pay $100 per corner lot—anything else was free—we lived at Odell Ave., behind the school near Witherill St. When I was born in Italy—I was about eight or nine months old, and my mother, when we came here—my father was already building the house on Odell Ave., which went down after a while, I guess, after many years my mother was very sorry about that—to see the house go down because they had to have a playground for the kids.
Well, the only thing we had to play on rocks really—on the side of the school—North Side School—before they built it. I know I was saying something about Marko's having a window there—it was a good target for baseball or football or anything, and this window, you know, being broken—say—times everything—that was my cousin, my brother and another boy—we had to split this charge about, I'd say about 13-something a piece to pay for the window—this Marko, he was a, he had a heart of gold but he could only do so much. He was very good about it—I remember him knocking on the door and he said, ""Dom, I know it was your brother”—you know, everything like this and that—“You want to pay for the window? I just can't get any more insurance.” That was a week's pay as far as we were concerned—stuff like this. If you want to ask me anything else—possibly how we entertained ourselves?
Nettie: I think that would be interesting—how you entertained yourself.
Dominick: At the time, we used to play dankeeper [sic]—and I wouldn't tell kids today, they had to open water tanks—that is something else I remember—follow the arrow—they used to have a ladder, and iron ladder, going up these things, and we'd start swinging around these darn ladders that go into the inside of these things they are 30-40 feet deep. We'd go down the ladder—we’d have to follow the arrow and cross it off and come up the ladder and swing around and follow the arrow down and see—and these are well protected. We just used to shimmy up old low wooden things that we used to hide—and they had a door, we never broke the lock on the door, but we used to go over it and get down and things like that—you often wonder today.
For Halloween—we used to take rosin and a piece of string and, say, about 150 feet or so away from the house, and attach with a rubber washer and a screw—make a lot of noise, and that was the—oh—that was the—thank God—I didn't say about the entertainments and our curfew—which was another, and they took off the list. Maybe it is still a law as far as Endicott is concerned—it might be still on the record.
A nine o'clock curfew—going down to the movie, I'll never forget. There were six of us on our street and our parents wanted to impress us, I guess, about this Dante's Inferno. We all went down to Washington Ave., and we got into that movie—it was about 6 o'clock at night, and we never realized the movie was long, it can happen with—I can still remember the time because it was a little after we used to have the town clock there—it was about ten after nine—six of us were walking across the street, about where Burt's might be now, or they had the fire station right there and police station was there—and one of the policemen, he didn't have anything else to do, whatever, and he came right there and took us in. Our parents had to come down for us—there was no phones to call them up—they got word for them and they had to walk down as there was no transportation for us. And that was it, that was the event.
Nettie: Then you got home and you got the devil.
Dominick: No, no, we were sent by our parents to see the movie—there was nothing, you know, that they could do—as I said—kids today should appreciate what they have—as far as freedom—because that 9 o'clock curfew is, just wrought-iron. I wouldn't be surprised that that
wasn't still on the books.
Nettie: Well, you had some really interesting recollections, Dom.
Dominick: I could go through a lot of them, the tanneries. [Bells chime]. We used to run between the pits, mostly down at the tanneries—anyone that's familiar—they had vats that were about 6 feet or 8 feet deep with acid or with stuff, and we'd do down for wax or whatever it was you have, we’d start running it between the darn vats and just that first thing—probably ten inches wide—one of those with an acid bath—splinter there—this was our fun in the tanneries. Then they would have a stacks of bales upon the thing—we would play King of the Hill—right on these darn bales of leather they had outside on some of these, lower Oak Hill Ave. or in freight houses in that stuff there. We were used to that smell—it was just part of—right by the tanneries. I can always remember talk about putting people on the spot—you know, I might have been a young brat—your father might have been one of them who bought magazines or smelly like perfumes like that that we would turn in for prizes of a movie camera or projector that you'd never get what they would take, or sell them some bottles of some sort of cologne—some had enough of them, but they all chipped in. Oh, they were a great bunch of people—we would go there to have our lunch—they would have fun themselves, because they were Russians, Italians, Czechoslovakians, it was a great—they had fun there—made fun of each other in a kidding way—like on Christmas especially, because the Julian calendar—like the Italians or any of them who had Christmas would come around—then the Russian Orthodox would come with umbrellas—especially if it was raining and there was no snow—this was a great, great thing, and January 7—I can remember that on January 7, that they would have snow but we would always get even with them on Easter—because I can remember my parents, they used to go in their shirtsleeves even if it was bitter cold, just to show that Easter come late.
It's talk about exchanging recipes, the Italians were great on greens and fried peppers and all that stuff, and they would exchange on holubkys. I remember eating holubkys when I was growing up because of the Russians—whoever—exchanged sandwiches—when we would have lunches—coming back from Henry B. Endicott or high school.
And another thing I can remember, really, when IBM took advantage of the diner—if you can remember, for 15¢—sometimes EJ workers wouldn't get in because IBM was there—I can go a step further—where it got to a point where most of my friends were IBM-ers. I remember one asked me, ""Dom, it's my turn to entertain—can you get me eight tickets for a banquet?"" Well, that does the line—I finished them off, because for $1.00 you could wine, dine and have a great time with a band—got to a point where EJ workers, themselves, were not attending—a lot of IBM friends—but what the heck, I could not blame them for doing this—but this was where Charlie Johnson was trying to be a good Joe. He could never keep with George F. He wanted to be liked—he tried many ways—but he just couldn't.
Another thing, if they wanted to know something—I played golf for 25¢. You go around the country—I've been to quite a few places, you tell them this stuff about playing golf for 25¢, they wouldn't believe you—if you had a course on there—this is well known that were no hazards on it, he said, “I don't want my workers climbing hills and everything after a day's work,” which was true—not on a golf course—for 25¢—we used to play, that was another thing, they wanted to borrow our cards—people didn't work for Endicott Johnson just to go down there and play for a 25¢. Then if I remember there were quite a few stories, like lots of the time we wanted to go to the IBM’s neighboring golf course, you couldn't get on there—you had to almost sign your life away to get on there as a guest.
So, this is the part of the difference between EJ and IBM—which is true. IBM is a great company—there is no getting around it, but they were a lot stricter—’cause EJ, what happened to EJ was their own fault as far as management—as far as anything else, because the workers—in the first place they were too lenient and then they were too generous. But, IBM, as a company, you can see, they do a lot for their workers today and then a lot more than Endicott Johnson could ever manage. Well, there might be a few more stories—there might be a few stories to think about to my recollections. You came to interview my wife—and—I—
Nettie: Dom, thank you very much. It has been interesting. [Pause]. Dominick Cinotti is the husband of Angelina Cinotti.
",,,,"24:24 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dominick Cinotti",,,,1978-06-08,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Endicott Johnson Corporation Housing Program; Cinotti, Dominick -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Endicott (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Workers Medical Service",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/07c4c8a4b1609520e55c0cfb6abe7a74.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6535949e495abc295e5330f9fbca8f7e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/234d3c7df20f4bb178c36ce3a66787d3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0bcf305f4a214f5566ae282b8e16f7fb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c88d4b378363ed143405e0a337b6c71f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/72569e05479db99b68a39dcd2360e037.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/feeb3a3c8e294434b2c74ee064ad478c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4b90e0d780516e4a8ca0b6dbdb6c2655.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/17357db3a20edcd2a83e0a35c51b2f0b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4f76b3d642a3f8aa4514630f0798fa5f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0f3b04c1e07d86d7e5e9dea3916e5869.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4d982a0ea096696c8124f6aae495e6dd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f4ddae4cfb425feab4406d8d62afb7be.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 496,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/496,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"30:34 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dr. John B. Burns ",,"Burns, John B. ; O'Neil, Dan",,"audio/mp3 ","Burns, John B. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Physicians -- Interviews; Elmira (N.Y.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Immunization; Vaccination; Medicaid; Pediatrician; Vitanza, Dr.","Dr. John B. Burns talks about his birth in Elmira and how he later opened the first certified pediatrician's office in the city of Binghamton, NY. He discusses his professional achievements in exchange transfusion combatting the RH factor, how sulfa drugs , penicillin, vaccination and immunization affected the practice of medicine. He also describes the evolution of his practice and struggles with accepting little or no payment before the advent of Medicare and Medicaid. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-06-16,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ",Sound,"Recording 10 ",,"O'Neil, Dan ","Burns, John B. ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Dr. John B. Burns
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 16 June 1978
Dan: Doctor, why don't we start out with the—you tell me your date and place of birth and the reason that you came to Binghamton and your life and experiences in the community.
Dr. Burns: OK let’s see, I was born on June 9th 1903 in Elmira, New York and ah my Mother died 3 weeks after I was born and the reason I mention that is because she died with an embolism which is quite unusual at this day and age to have that happen. Ah I went to the schools in Elmira and graduated from Elmira Free Academy in 1922 and then I went from there I went to the University of Buffalo in the College of Arts and Science and the Medical College and I graduated from there in 1928 with an M.D. Degree and a Bachelor of Science in Medicine. Ah I interned at the Myer Memorial Hospital which at that time was called Buffalo City Hospital and ah after leaving there, I went to New York to the New York Nursery and Child's Hospital which is the oldest children’s hospital in America and it was Cornell's Pediatric Department and that’s where I did my pediatric training and after I left New York I went to Baltimore to Johns Hopkins and finished my pediatric training there at Hopkins and it was from there that I came to Binghamton in 1931. Ah you wondered why I came to Binghamton—well when I was in high school at Elmira Free Academy I used to come here to Binghamton to play football and basketball against Binghamton Central and ah I always, when every time I was at Binghamton, I always was quite impressed with the city. Ah at that time the big rivalry was between Elmira and Binghamton—ah Endicott, Vestal and Johnson City, of those weren't in it at all—it was between Binghamton Central and Elmira Free Academy.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: And as I say that's the reason that I happened to come here or to think about it. When I was finishing at Hopkins, Dr. Park, who was the Professor of Pediatrics there asked me where I was going to practice and I told him I was thinking of Binghamton and he knew a Dr. Chittenden here ah who had taught him when he was a medical student at P. and S. in New York so he said, ""Well I'll write to him and see what the prospects are."" Of course this was at the bottom of the Depression.
Dan: Uh huh
Dr. Burns: And he wrote to Dr. Chittenden and I think it was Chittenden who suggested that I come up and see him and talk with him—so I came up one holiday I, I can't remember whether it was the 4th of July or Memorial Day or when it was and ah visited with him and he ah referred me to four different doctors here that I should go around and see and I went around to each one of the four of them but I didn't get any encouragement from any of them—not one. They all said, ""Well if you can wait 6 years why you can probably make a go of it or not,"" but anyway ah I decided to come here to try it out anyway and we had some exciting times at that particular period. I tried to borrow some money from a bank in Elmira and they wouldn't loan me any and ah I finally borrowed $1500 from an uncle of mine and I went to the bank in Elmira to deposit it before transferring it to Binghamton and ah I asked them about what bank I should go to here and they said, ""They're all all right, go to any of them,"" so the man that we rented the apartment from here at 124 Murray Street said the bank, I think it was called the Citizens Trust ah was a bank that would give you a loan easier than anybody else—so I figured that's for me, that's what I want—so I, I went down to the Citizens Trust and made arrangements to have the money transferred from Elmira and then we went to visit Marion's brother over the weekend and came back on Tuesday—was a notice on the bank that it had failed—it had gone under and ah so it's a wonder I didn't have a heart attack right there. Anyway I called Elmira and ah Elmira said that ah that they had gotten wind of it and they had held it up. We, as I mentioned, we lived at 124 Murray Street—rented an apartment there, we paid $55.00 a month and that included a garage and ah all the utilities and everything and ah Mrs. Burns finally got them to cut the rent down to $50 a month because our money was going pretty fast. At that time that I started here in Binghamton, you couldn't put an announcement in the paper that you were opening an office—it was unethical to do it nor could you—that you were moving your office anywhere I mean.
Dan: Is that right?
Dr. Burns: And now of course you can put it in which they should have allowed it anyway but you couldn't then and also we had another ah bad situation and that was that the ah telephone book had just come out so I couldn't get my name in the telephone book and of course it was ah as I said, the bottom of the Depression ah anyway I opened an office on the 25th of September 1931 and I never had a patient for the first 6 weeks and the interesting thing is that the first patient that I had came from Hancock—didn't come from from Binghamton at all. I never had more than one patient a day until the first of April, 1932 and on that day, I had four patients call me in the morning and from there on it began to break and to build up. Ah there are several interesting things about Binghamton at the time that I came here—as a matter of fact there were very few specialists—there was no one who did pediatrics exclusively—there were 3 or 4 doctors who were general practitioners who did a lot of pediatrics but none of them that just did it exclusively and other than the nose and throat men and ah the surgeons, although a great many of the surgeons ah did general practice too ah there were no specialists—they had a dermatologist here before I came but he died just before I came here.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: We had no urologist and no neurosurgeon, no dermatologist at all and no child had ever been cystoscoped here before I came here and I finally got one of the young surgeons to buy a child cystoscope and that was the first one that was ever cysticoped in this area.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns : Now of course we've got lots of urologists and ah the specialty that you need. Ah we, they had a situation at the City Hospital at that time when if you had a patient with say meningitis or scarlet fever or polio, you send it into the hospital, you lost control of it completely because this one doctor, who was a General Practitioner ah had charge of that contagious hospital.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: And that irritated me quite badly because I mean I didn't see any reason why I shouldn’t be able to take care of my own ah patients with contagious disease because I’d had special training in it—so after I had been here about a year, I got ahold of this doctor one morning and I told him that ah I was going to get a lawyer and if necessary, I was going to go to court to see why it was that I couldn't go in and take care of my own patients. I think that upset him a little bit because he said, ""Now if you ah just don’t say anything about it, I’ll let you take care of your patients when they go in.” Well of course it was just a question of time when the other doctors saw that I was going in, that they went in too.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: And the arrangements that they had was that they had—the door was locked and the nurse had the key to it and she was the only one that could let you in or out so she knew those that had permission to go in, see, and ah but that, that was overcome. Had another interesting situation in Binghamton and that was ah the it was a great center for certified raw milk, which was ah a very excellent milk but it was raw.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: And of course I had been ah brought up in the hospitals where I was in using pasteurized milk.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: Ah I was even accused of using dirty milk in my patients ah when using pasteurized milk—anyway eventually this dairy who did the, made the certified milk did pasteurize their milk too so that they finally had a certified pasteurized milk and then of course eventually why pasteurization took over completely but ah, ah, ah let’s see here—Oh I one ah factor that was ah helped me quite a lot when I came here was that I did have an opportunity to give some anesthetics for ah nose and throat men and for surgical patients ah I fortunately had had some experience at that at Nursery and Child’s so while I never enjoyed giving anesthesia, I mean it did help to keep me going.
Dan: Umum.
Dr. Burns: I also used to do quite a little lab work here ah for example if a doctor thought he had a child with an appendix and wanted a blood count done why I would go out and do the blood count for him of if they thought a child has polio, I would go out and do the lumbar puncture and examine the spinal fluid and call him back and give him the report on it.
Dan: Umum.
Dr. Burns: And I remember one very interesting ah ah day—I don't know whether this was would be interesting or not but ah there was either the 4th of July or Memorial Day ah that one of the doctors had a little girl in Lourdes that had a bloodstream infection and of course in those days you didn't have any sulfa or penicillin or any of those things, see and she had to be transfused or rather they tried to transfuse her but they didn't have anyone apparently available at that time that could do typing and crossmatching so I don't know how many hours I spent typing and crossmatching ah donors until finally we got one that they could use on the girl but it didn't do any good, she, she didn't survive anyway.
Dan: Umum—would that be the what they call the RH factor?
Dr. Burns: No—that one was not RH. This was a septicemia bloodstream infection with a strep infection. No, the RH factor of course when I started we didn't know that RH factor—we used to call it Icterus Gravis in the newborn. We knew that it was a very serious condition and a lot of them were deaf afterwards and a lot of them were mentally defective afterwards and a number of them died.
Dan: Umum.
Dr. Burns: And it wasn't until the RD factor was discovered that we could really do something and Dr. Vitanza and I did the first exchange transfusion on one of her patients here in the city ah whether it was done, others done in the area or not, I do not know but ah it took us 7 hours to do the first exchange transfusion—now after that we got so that each individual could do it in an hour or hour and a half.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Burns: But this child survived anyway even though it took that length of time to do it ah it was interesting in being able to practice before the advent of sulfa and penicillin because practice of medicine is entirely different after the advent of those drugs—it just made it entirely different.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: Let’s see what else—in 19, I spent even three years in the service from 1942 to 1945 and ah then when I came back, there was already another pediatrician that had come in.
Dan: But you were the first pediatrician in the area.
Dr. Burns: I was the first ah pediatrician first one that did it exclusively and first one that was certified by the American Board of Pediatrics.
Dan: Umum.
Dr. Burns: Especially ah as you probably know, because you had to have it done when you were young, had to be vaccinated against smallpox before you could go to school—you also had to be protected against diphtheria, whooping cough and tetanus and I think one of the most interesting things today is the fact that it's no longer—you do not have to be vaccinated against smallpox—smallpox has been eradicated throughout the world.
Dan: Umum.
Dr. Burns: And the same thing will probably happen with polio if they can only get the people to cooperate well enough. Now of course you not only have to be inoculated against whooping cough and diphtheria and tetanus but you also have to be immunized against measles and rubella, that's 3 day measles ah mumps ah those three. Yes, measles, mumps and rubella ah they have to be done before they could go to school now. So there’s been a big advance in the immunization ah let’s see what else is there?
Dan: Now you spoke it took you almost a year to get ah started.
Dr. Burns: That's right.
Dan: You went from what, 6 patients or something like that you had at the end of the year.
Dr. Burns: Well, I don't, I had after my first patient, I say I never had more than one a day until April Fools Day—the last day of April.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: And then I had four and from then on I didn't keep track of them. I—know one thing that when I filed my first income tax return that the Federal Government got after me and wanted to know why it was I hadn't previously filed it—they thought that there was something funny about it.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Burns: When they found out that I had just started in practice I mean why it turned out to be all right.
Dan: Uh huh—Now when you retired, how many, how many patients did you have approximately, Doctor, that is in a year?
Dr. Burns: Oh gee I haven't any idea how many I had.
Dan: Can you figure just a guess?
Dr. Burns: In a year—in the course of a year?
Dan: Yeah in the course of a year when you knew—just, just round figures. Just give you an idea how you built up your practice from nothing.
Dr. Burns: Well I know I used to work ah in the morning from—I’d give anesthetics from eight o'clock, from seven o'clock until about 8:30 and then start in the office at nine and work in the office all day and then go out and make house calls from about 8 o'clock at night ‘til midnight but I can't remember the ah when I look back now I don't see how I did it.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: Gee I—Marion?
Marion: Yeah.
Dr. Burns: Do you have any idea—what do you mean a day how many I saw in a day or—
Dan: No about—you know how many patients you had in about a year’s time, you know.
Marion: I don't have any idea.
Dr. Burns: Do you have any idea how many patients I had a year before I had to retire.
Marion: Oh Lord no—how are you this morning?
Dan: Good, Mrs. Burns.
Marion: Did you have a nice trip?
Dan: Very nice.
Marion: No, John, I haven't to be honest.
Dan: How many patients did you see on the average a day, Doctor?
Marion: Oh—
Dan: Would you know that?
Marion: Get out one of your books and I'll count them up just for fun.
Dan: No, no, just, just a guess.
Dr. Burns: Well we'd see them every fifteen minutes from 9 o’clock in the morning and take about a half hour out for lunch and finish up at 6 o'clock at night.
Marion: If you were lucky—it usually was later than 6 o'clock at night.
Dan: You saw one every fifteen minutes?
Dr. Burns: Yes but we worked others in between—emergencies we would have to bring in between too and inoculations I mean that we gave in between, see, so even with that, we figured 15 minutes but we had others coming in also.
Dan: Yeah—I know you were awfully busy—your office, your waiting room was packed—we used to try and ask for the first appointment after lunch so we could get in a halfway decent hour, otherwise we had to wait 2 or 3 hours.
Marion: (laughter) Sit there and wait—how true.
Dr. Burns: Well.
Dan: Now the—I think Doctor there's something that you ah left out—we'll see. Ah polio vaccination program, immunization program when they introduced the Salk vaccine—you participated in that program—could you tell me a little about that?
Dr. Burns: Well ah it was just the fact it was ah it was a killed vaccine and it was given by injection.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: In contradistinction to the Sabin vaccine which was given by mouth and ah course when the Salk vaccine first came out as I remember correctly, I think we discontinued our regular practice for several days and did nothing but immunize the children against polio.
Dan: Yes, I know that Alice, our oldest daughter participated in that program and in other words in administering that in order to see how effective it is was or get a control on it, why you kept either they didn't know whether they were getting the real vaccine or else a placebo.
Dr. Burns: Oh we, that must have been done experimentally because we always gave the regular vaccine.
Dan: Yeah but this was when it was first introduced.
Dr. Burns: Yeah.
Dan: To see how effective it was.
Dr. Burns: Yeah.
Dan: But Sabin—there was a Sabin vaccine but that was a live virus wasn’t it?
Dr. Burns: Sabin is still live and it's a live vaccine and is given by mouth and ah of course they're both two good vaccines.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Burns: But the Sabin is probably a little superior and much easier to administer too.
Dan: The Sabin is.
Dr. Burns: Yes, of course just given by mouth.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Burns: But there have been some cases of polio resulting from the Sabin vaccine.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: They're rare but there have been cases discovered and there's been just recently a case of a father who picked up polio from after his child was immunized with Sabin vaccine.
Dan: Umum, yeah, so ah you of course didn't always make house calls did you—you had to terminate those as your practice advanced didn't you?
Dr. Burns: Well I made house calls right up until after I came back from the service and of course when I came back from the service, the practice of medicine had changed considerably because the doctors weren't able to make house calls and people got in the habit of going to the doctor' s office.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Burns: So I continued to make house calls up until I quit practice on certain instances. I mean sometimes I mean just obligated.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Burns: But ah ah before I went into service I mean, I'd make house calls from the NOB down in Endicott up to Chenango Bridge and I've been even to Sayre, Pennsylvania to make a house call.
Dan: Gee.
Dr. Burns: Ah but I remember one down near Chemung one Sunday, of course we used to tie these up going out for a ride or something on Sunday too—we thought, “kill two birds with one stone.”
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: But Bingharnton has been very good to me ah I'm glad that I came here to practice—I've enjoyed it—I think Binghamton is an excellent city.
Dan: That's good.
Dr. Burns: And ah I think I would do over again. As I say I'm certified by the American Board of Pediatrics; member of the American Academy of Pediatrics; Central New York Pediatric Club; of course the Broome County Medical Society and the State Society and the AMA. Happen to be a life member of those—also the Academy of Pediatrics ah I don't know much else that ah.
Dan: Now when you retired didn't they honor you by over to Lourdes Hospital by the Maternity section over there?
Dr. Burns: Yeah, they donated ah ah incubator in my name over there it's one of the latest incubators and not only that but they gave Mrs. Sabini a pearl necklace and then they gave me this (pointing to mantle piece) over here which is worth over $300—that thing, that there.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: And in addition to that they had $300 left over and ah they called and wanted to know what to, what to do with that so I suggested that they give that to Lourdes too.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: Which they did—to the pediatric department.
Dan: Umum.
Dr. Burns: When I came here of course Lourdes Hospital had no pediatric department at all. It really wasn't until after I came back from the service that Lourdes had any pediatric department to amount to anything and the one at the General is when I came here was very unsatisfactory—I mean it wasn't a good setup at all but I have in the past been head of the Pediatrics Department at both the General and at Lourdes and I did work at the General probably 90% of my 25 years over there. Now they both have excellent pediatric departments—very well run, excellent nurses and everything.
Dan: Umum.
Dr. Burns: It’s entirely different from what it used to be.
Dan: Umum. Now of course I have to transcribe this and some of this spelling here I’d like—this Icterus Gravis, how do you spell that?
Dr. Burns: I-C-T-E-R-U-S.
Dan: I-C-T—
Dr. Burns: —E-R-U-S G-R-A-V-I-S.
Dan: Gravis, OK, and in your internship, what ah what school was it in Elmira—you went to some school there in Elmira.
Dr. Burns: Well just the Elmira Free Academy.
Dan: But there was an intern—
Dr. Burns: No—interned in Buffalo.
Dan: In Buffalo.
Dr. Burns: At Myer Memorial Hospital.
Dan: That was it, what was it, Elmira?
Dr. Burns: No no Myer—M-Y-E-R.
Dan: Myer, OK.
Dr. Burns: It was Buffalo City Hospital is what it was then—now it's the Myer Memorial Hospital.
Dan: Umum and you retired in what year Doctor?
Dr. Burns: 1942.*
Dan: ‘42.
Dr. Burns: September 13th.
Dan: Umum.
Dr. Burns: Not by choice.
Dan: Not by choice.
Dr. Burns: No.
Dan: Unfortunately—OK well is there anything else that you’d like to add?
Dr. Burns: Well I was just trying to think whether there’s ah I’ll have to admit one thing and that is that I am sure in the 41 years that I was in practice that I saw a few miracles.
Dan: You saw a few miracles.
Dr. Burns: I think, I think most doctors will tell you that they've seen some miracles too.
Dan: Is that right?
Dr. Burns: Yeah.
Dan: Great.
Dr. Burns: Of course we got credit for a lot of things and all that ah the Lord took care of.
Dan: Oh sure, well we know that we got to work together.
Dr. Burns: Yeah.
Dan: OK Doctor, well if there isn't anything else why I’ll turn this off. Would you like me to play it back for you?
Dr. Burns: I can 't—do you have any other questions that ah.
Dan: No I think you've covered it very well.
Dr. Burns: At least I told you all the hard luck that we had (laughter) that you wanted, history, that's history.
Dan: Oh that, that makes it interesting because it gives you an idea in other words most of our interviews why the people starting out you know were making $3.00 a week and when people realize that you try and raise a family on $3.00 a week why they're squeaking on 20 or 30,000 incomes a year why you wonder how they ever made it.
Dr. Burns: Well, I had patients, one I’ll never forget, used to bring me a chicken. Poor old fellow he was a dirt farmer from out near Montrose and he’d bring in the skinniest, scrawniest chicken that there was but his heart was in the right place. Had another one bring in a rabbit—I’d never eaten rabbit before in my life but we were glad to get ‘em.
Dan: Oh sure.
Dr. Burns: Well another thing that we did which, I, I’m kind of sorry it isn’t that way today and that is we took care of the charity patients for nothing—like I would serve 6 months on and 6 months off at the General Hospital and ah I’ll say one thing that those charity patients got just as good care as your wealthiest patients got.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: Wonderful care. See, now with Medicaid and Medicare and all of that, that’s a thing of the past and I think sometimes it's too bad. We never got a penny for taking care of any of the charity patients from the City of Binghamton and the Town of Union used to pay us a dollar a day for the hospital calls that we made and that was the only thing that we ever got.
Dan: Is that right?
Dr. Burns: I think ah sometimes it's just too bad that they didn't, the way it was of course welfare is so—Marion—can she listen to this when you play it back?
Dan: Sure.
Dr. Burns: I think it's too bad the way welfare is today, I mean it’s not like it used to be.
Dan: No, no.
Marion: Well he used to be on call for all the welfare, so-called “welfare patients.”
Dr. Burns: That's what I said.
Marion: There was no pay given at that time a t all.
Dr. Burns: That's just what I told him.
Marion: The doctors took care of them free of charge.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Marion: And he used to be on seeing them at a time.
Dr. Burns: 6 months.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Marion: Never less than 4 months out of the year.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, well things have changed an awful lot with the Medicare and Medicaid—some of them have gotten rich.
Marion: They sure have.
Dan: Yeah when you read about some of them that are collecting a quarter of a million dollars a year just from Medicare.
Marion: It's ridiculous isn't it?
Dan: Isn't it?
Dr. Burns: I have one other interesting thing that I feel pretty proud of and that is I have the smallest baby that ever lived at Lourdes—she only weighed one pound and 12 oz when she was born and she went down to one pound and 7 oz and she's graduating this June as a Registered Nurse in North Carolina.
Dan: Is that right?
Dr. Burns: I feel pretty, pretty proud of her. Her mother—
Marion: She's a beautiful girl.
Dr. Burns: —was convinced, was convinced she was going to live and I was convinced as much that she wasn't going to make the grade but she did.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: And the best part is she is right mentally.
Dan: Uh huh.
Dr. Burns: And that’s the nice part, she writes to me 2 or 3 times a year and she's going to send me an invitation when she graduates.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Burns: But those are things that make the practice of medicine worthwhile. I can't think of anything.
Dan: Well if you can't think of anything else, Doctor, I'll turn this off and play it back for you.
Dr. Burns: OK, maybe I better not listen to it.
[PAUSE]
*Dan: Dr. Burns would like me to make a correction in this interview—he retired in 1972, not 1942 as stated.
",,,,"30:34 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dr. John B. Burns",,,,"1978-06-16 ",,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Burns, John B. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Physicians -- Interviews; Elmira (N.Y.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Immunization; Vaccination; Medicaid Pediatrician; Vitanza, Dr. ","2016-03-27 ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0ed808abd9c5a70ccd9c73b977d5eb07.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a732d0d0a5d31e2dcb2297d9222ba4af.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/afe2f179e20a6fb630b441d9e7e77ed3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/43c8235dd04954f81f7bb24648f5b731.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/838e1f29036d8ba40f28933356f6e28d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/080e0ac5e19bfe9a5598ce4361ab95c5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/63e61448429778d7d66999f96601e9cc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4da287957287ae1d847e886fe7d163d4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8860ffc14d75cb9925a5c4325a93d753.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/17545235cfb1f5546470e9112f047df0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dcaf3ebb6c62fc2b821f73a0b9df5b98.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/201b12bb2456530e7124d5ad3bfaedc7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8f1a2a4beccfbd6180e7f3bee6b05566.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/36fd06adb2b30d8d6ab1204bbdf2ed97.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/382ea3326139be759ee38724c8c47fed.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d4d8653d4e69e5753e2457d26aa01986.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ff07ccb9fe8c55124f4c27cbee73a6b0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/23179c8a8baf3cc960bdbca0d862d340.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,1 513,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/513,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"42:08 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Eunice Goundrey ",,"Goundrey, Eunice ; Wood, Wanda",,"audio/mp3 ","Goundrey, Eunice -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Rockettes (Dance company); Dancers -- Interviews; Radio City Music Hall (New York, N.Y.); Ballet Arts (New York, N.Y.); Roxyettes (Dance company); Dance teachers","Eunice Goundrey talks about her family's past and her mother's encouragement of her dance career from her childhood through her training at Ballet Arts School (New York, N.Y.) and the Roy and Jane Dodge school and her career as a Rockette at Radio City Music Hall. She discusses the impact of being a Rockette and later touring with the Roxyettes, a travelling dance group. She discusses her years teaching dance to children, methods of teaching, dancing as therapy, and highlights specific people and students that affected her in particular.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-06-22,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,English,Sound,"Recording 29",,"Wood, Wanda","Goundrey, Eunice",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Eunice Goundrey
Interviewed by: Wanda Wood
Date of interview: 22 June 1978
Wanda: This is Wanda Wood interviewing Miss Eunice Goundrey of 17 Esther Avenue, Binghamton[, New York]. The date is 22 June, 1978. Eunice, you've, um, been a dancer most of your life. And we'd like to, ah, hear some of your viewpoints and experiences in that line. Also, anything else that you want to put on tape for this historical project. To begin with, where were you born, and what was your family background?
Eunice: I was born in Binghamton, ah, in the old city hospital which is now General Hospital. Ah, my mother and father were both Binghamtonians. Ah, my mother's family was the, ah, S.J. Kelley engraving company and my father's family…ah, my granddad was Glen Goundrey. And, ah…at one time, he was a blacksmith in the area. And he went into building custom truck bodies and eventually, as he got older, was in charge of the Spaulding Bakery, ah, garage. And that's where he retired from.
Wanda: Did he have his own business, this truck building?
Eunice: Yes. On Noyes Island. Yes. Yeah. Yes. The Goundreys were originally from the Elmira area—Watkins Glen—and then they, they moved to Binghamton.
Wanda: So your early years were spent right here on Esther Avenue, were they?
Eunice: Yes.
Wanda: And you've been here ever since?
Eunice: I think I'm one of the very, one of the very few people that is still living in a home that she was brought to as a baby. [laughter]
Wanda: That's true, in this day and age.
Eunice: I've gone away and come back and decided this is where I wanted to stay.
Wanda: Well how did you get started with, with, ah, dancing? What was your, who influenced you the most on that?
Eunice: My mother.
Wanda: Your mother.
Eunice: My mother was a dancer. Ah, she had had dance training, and though she didn't go on professionally with it, everybody that I have ever talked with, ah, said that, ah, she…had that something extra special that, ah… I never saw my mother dance. And I'm sorry I didn't, but by the time I came along, you see, she had retired and had started to teach, but I—ah, there were no movies at that time for us to capture her, but, ah, she apparently was the darling of Binghamton as far as dance was concerned, and, ah, not so much now because most of her contemporaries are gone, but, ah, people while I was younger would say, ""Oh your mother was absolutely, you know, just a beautiful dancer."" So she started to teach, anyway, and as my sister and I came along she felt that dance was very much a part of every person's education—whether you used it or not—you benefited from it. So when we were three, four, five years old she had ballet classes and we were expected to take them. So we, ah, did our duty. And you know, Mommy was the teacher and, ah…as we got older, she felt that we should have other training besides just what she could give us.
Wanda: Was she mainly a ballet dancer?
Eunice: Yes. She did very little tap dancing, but, ah, some people come to town—ah, Lou Fields and Jack Evans, which she felt—um, were of good caliber and so she enrolled us in their school for the tap dancing and continued the ballet with us and from then on, you know, we went on. But she—ah, Mommy was the biggest influence. She never pushed either of us into the dance, but she encouraged us, and I think there's a difference.
Wanda: And did your sister continue…to dance?
Eunice: Through high school she did, but she didn't care anything about going on further with it. And, ah, when I was in high school, I was teaching for Fields and Evans and had made up my mind I definitely was never going to be a teacher. I was off to New York to perform and that's all there was to it. Well, I knew I had to go to school, you know, to get added training and so forth, but, ah, I never dreamed I would come back and be a teacher and find the fulfillment in it that I have found.
Wanda: That's marvelous. So, so where did you continue with your dance lessons after you…?
Eunice: I went to the—um, Ballet Arts School in Carnegie Hall for ballet and I also went to the Roy Dodge school, for tap. Jazz was just, just beginning to come in, so that it was just one of those things, you don't know whether it's going to take hold or not and my interest was in the tap and, and the ballet anyway, so that was where I fitted.
[Interruption from a motorbike]
Wanda: Then—ah, how long—did you live in New York while you were going to these two different schools?
Eunice: Yes—um, Shirley Lewis was a former neighbor of mine and she was at NYU at the time, and she was looking for a roommate at the time that I was looking for a place to stay. And—ah, so our mothers got together and decided that the two of us should be roommates.
Wanda: And how old were you at the time?
Eunice: Eighteen. [laughter]
Wanda: Whee—alone in the big city, eh?
Eunice: Yes. Yeah. So I went to school and—ah, for a year. Just about. Yes. And then I took the audition at...well, I decided it was about time I made some money and that was a laugh. Um—I—but I wanted to do theatrical work as opposed to nightclub work. So I took an audition at—ah—the Latin Quarter, and also at Radio City Music Hall. And the Music Hall audition came first but—ah, they said they would let us know, which is normal, and then I got a recall from Music Hall. There were about a hundred girls in the first call—in audition—and then they asked a few of us to come back again. And out of that there were another hundred that were all there for audition. And out of—well, what turned out to be about two hundred girls, six of us were chosen. And at the time that acceptance came through, ah, the day before the acceptance had come from the Latin Quarter and I was really upset because I, I didn't really want to do the nightclub work. And I thought—but, you know, I really should do something. And then the Music Hall acceptance came, so I—that's the one I took—and I've never been unhappy. Nightclub work is different than theater—ahm—it's very often—ahm—at the time—ahm—a case where you, ah, must sit down with the customers and, you know, mingle a little bit. Nothing beyond that, but…ah, between shows, I wanted the time to myself. And, you know, I wanted to be a dancer, period. And in the theater you get that—ahm, in nightclub work, you're not so apt to.
Wanda: The Latin Quarter has folded, hasn't it?
Eunice: Yes…yeah.
Wanda: And Radio City Hall has nearly folded.
Eunice: Yes, it's on its last legs. Yes. Yeah. Ahm—this, ah, last season. Where as I understand it, the state has taken over the payroll and will keep it open at least for another year.
Wanda: And with the Rockettes.
Eunice: Yes. And the Rockettes now are being starred as they ought to be.
Wanda: Good.
Eunice: Ahm—I had a notice from the alumni association saying that in this last show that they're doing, the girls are doing three different numbers instead of just one appearance, as they usually do. So the girls—I'm sure they're not getting any more money—but they are at least, you know, coming into their own. Because whenever anybody speaks about Radio City, ahm, Music Hall, it's the Rockettes that come to mind.
Wanda: Naturally.
Eunice: So, ah…but they were always kind of played down as part of the production. And now they are the featured ones. Which is good.
Wanda: So the publicity hasn't been bad.
Eunice: No. No. It's a shame, though. Now the last show before the supposed closing, the crowds were around the blocks again and, you know, people were standing in line two and three hours to get in, waiting to get in the way it used to be years ago. And since the reprieve (chuckle) has been given—ahm—the crowds are down again and, ah, so I don't know whether it's the fact that, ah, Music Hall has outlived itself. I know other large theaters in New York…got to that point, but, ah, if it has outlived itself, I will feel better that they have had a year to think it over. Ah—I was told that in December they had gotten all their union contracts signed and were breathing a sigh of relief because that gave them all another two years, you know, before this hassle would start again. And then in January the management announced that the Hall would close. So everybody was panic-struck. And—ah, you know, to me they, they were going to make a major decision with not enough time to think about it. They, to me they will never be able to replace a building like that. The—ah, it was built during the Depression when labor was cheap. Ah—it has facilities in it that probably never could be re—ah—produced, you know, this day and age. Ah—so—to have it torn down and then three or four years from now say, “Gee, you know, we don't have any facility like this."" I feel in a year's time they will have at least had a chance to think it over. If then they decide to do it, I will—I will not be happy, but at least I'll feel that they have followed through.
Wanda: Do you remember the physical layout? Was it built especially for the theater?
Eunice: Yes…yeah.
Wanda: It was probably quite revolutionary at the time, then, wasn't it—when it was built?
Eunice: Yes. That stage, Wanda, is half of the size of a football field. And—ah, you know, beside all the mechanical things that I, I don't know anything about, you know, but—just to lift that huge—big—ah, front curtain took systems that were almost unheard of at the time that that was built in ‘32. So it's, uh, it was…
Wanda: What were the living facilities like in the—in the theater? Didn't you have a place—
Eunice: No, you never lived in the theater. There was an infirmary and there was a—well, like a, a den sort of thing for the girls to relax in. There was a cafeteria downstairs. That was for all the Music Hall force. Ah, anyone employed there was, you know, could eat there. Ahm…but it was, it was a glorified backstage life. Ahm—primarily dressing rooms and rehearsal halls. There is a rehearsal hall above the theater, ahm, that is, has the same dimensions as the stage. So that the 36 Rockettes, for instance, could, could get in the rehearsal hall, you know, to do a complete rehearsal…with no problems…with spacing and everything else.
Wanda: Were there backup girls to—ah, in case somebody couldn't go on?
Eunice: There were always thirty-six on stage and twelve on vacation. So if there was a problem then one of the girls on vacation would be called back in. Now you were called—ahm—it was three weeks on, three weeks on stage and one week off, but of that one week off you had to rep—I think—as I recall the week went from Wednesday to Tuesday. So you were required to be back in there on Sunday to find out your spacing from the week that you were coming in. So you didn't really have a full week off. You weren't dancing on stage, but you were, you know, required to be around. Ah—no—many a girl went on stage feeling—very badly, but ahm, the shoes went on and costume went on and the dance went on and you went off and you laid down between shows and you started all over again [chuckles] for four or five shows a day.
Wanda: And how often did they change the theme of the, the show? There was always a terrific thing about the Easter show and the Christmas show and the seasonal—
Eunice: Well, the holidays—ahm—governed the change of that particular—of the holiday shows, but basically it was the attraction of the movie that governed the stage show. If people were not coming to see the movie then we might run three weeks. If they were piling in, we might do the show for five weeks, because the, the stage show never changed unless the movie changed. So…and then, ah, we would have a week's notice because the, the planning—the preliminary work—is done far in advance for a show, but for staging it, it's all done within a week's time. So Mr. Markert, the Director of the Rockettes at the time, said that if you couldn't learn a routine in a week he couldn't use you. So you're learning one routine while you were dancing on stage doing another one, and—ah, it's an experience but it's, it's, ah…
Wanda: Must have been a fast pace.
Eunice: It was. I enjoyed it very, very much. I was also very glad to get out of it. [laughs]
Wanda: What do you suppose the average, ah, time was that a girl would stay with the Rockettes?
Eunice: I don't know the average. Ahm—some of the girls were there for years, and years and years. Ahm—one of the girls, I know, opened the Music Hall and she retired about ten years ago, you know, and I'm sure that was the exception, but—a lot of the girls stayed for a long, long time and there were others that didn't, and I was one of them.
Wanda: Do you keep in touch through this alumni association that you have?
Eunice: Yes. Ahm—during all this furor of Music Hall closing, ahm—of course there was a lot of publicity in all parts of the country. And, ah, I made a couple of phone calls to girls that I had…I knew their names but I, you know, had long since lost touch with them...but—ahm—when they wanted to interview me here on the radio, I wanted to be sure my facts were up to date, so I got in touch with one and she put me in touch with another one and—it was very interesting. There is a bond from having worked at Music Hall .. that is lasting. It doesn't make any difference whether you knew that particular person at the time or not. Ahm—the fact that you were somebody that worked in the, in the Hall, that, that makes it. So—I have a great big family that's spread all over the country.
Wanda: A very exclusive club, I would say.
Eunice: Yes. Yes. We're all very proud to have worked there and been part of it. 'Cause it's—ahm—well, it's unique. Ahm, there's no other house in all the world like that. The seating capacity is, think it's 6200. That's a lot of seats to fill every day—four times a day, and that's what it really should be doing, you see. And that's the problem now, that, ah, they're not filling those 6200 seats.
Wanda: Well, New York itself has changed so much and so people are a little reluctant to go, just for—
Eunice: I am a little reluctant to go, even—these days, ahm. If I am in the City for a dance convention or something of the sort I always go to Music Hall. I, you know I like to go and I know that's one place I can take any of my students and not have to worry about what they're going to see, but we used to always go to the last show—the nine o'clock show—and then go back to the hotel. Now we never wait for the last show, we go to the early evening, you know, six-thirty, seven o'clock, so I can get those kids in off the street.
Wanda: Sad.
Eunice: It is. So—and I know the people around the New York area itself are worse than I am. They won't, and they won’t go on the streets of New York after dark. So if that's the feeling in the metropolitan area, nothing's going to…I don't think, you know, be a great big moneymaker until the climate of the city changes. People going to theaters will get a hotel and—ah, take a cab and get a cab outside the theater and go back to the hotel. They're—ah, very much afraid to be on the streets. And when I was living down there I felt just as safe as anything. No qualms at all. I walked the streets completely by myself and—no worry at all, but I, I don't have that feeling now. And I don't think it's all me, having gotten older and looking at things differently. Ahm—when my brother-in-law was alive, ahm—and Dick was Assistant Chief of Police here, and he used to warn me, and when he and my sister were first married he never said a word. But he would say, you know, ""You just—be careful where you go,"" and from him that was enough, because, that was enough warning. He was not an alarmist.
Wanda: So you're very lucky to be there at the time that you were, weren't you?
Eunice: I think so. Yes. Yeah.
Wanda: It would be an entirely different thing now.
Eunice: I don't really encourage my kids—ahm—to think theater and professional dance.
Wanda: Your students.
Eunice: Mm-hm. If they want to, you know, I would not discourage them, but at one time, you know, the only reason you danced was so that you could be on stage or—or—ah, continue with the dance part of it in some way and, ahm, I have felt or a long, long time and perhaps because of my mother's influence again, ah—dance should be a part of everybody's education. If, if you dance you will appreciate it, you'll also understand it better and you gain from the discipline that is required from it, as well as the grace and the poise that comes, you know, from having pursued it a little bit longer. But, ahm, I think more and more people now are looking at it that this will add to a child's education. From…as they get older what they do with it is their own business, but it's still, it's like taking piano or an instrument or it's part of the artistic education…for the youngster.
Wanda: It builds confidence.
Eunice: It does. It does.
Wanda: And poise, as you say.
Eunice: I…one of my favorite stories is, um…a dear little girl that I had years ago. Her mommy, ahm…she was a preschooler and this was such a shy child. Just, she would not come out of her little shell for anything. And we had her in class—we started in the fall, and by springtime that child was flower girl in a wedding, and the mommy said she just pranced down that aisle and nothing bothered her.
And she said, ""I have to thank you, because it's the dancing class that has done it.""
So it, you know…little things like that, ah, make it worthwhile.
Wanda: Not a little thing, really.
Eunice: Well, no. If you can bring a child out...yes, it's…it's a good feeling. You know that you've done something.
Wanda: Have you dealt with, ah, children with physical problems that dancing has helped?
Eunice: One of the reasons that I am in business right now is that, ah, when I first came back from New York, my mother got a call from a friend of hers saying that—ah, the lady's grandchild had been run over by a car and both her legs had been broken. Her doctor had taken her as far as he could, and now she needed some exercise—supervised exercise. And he recommended dancing. And would, this lady asked my mother if she would take this child.
And Mommy said, ""No.” She had hung up her dancing shoes for the last time. But she said, ""Eunice is home and maybe she would do it.""
Well, when I came home I didn't want to teach. That was not—I didn't know what I was going to do, but I wasn't going to teach. So I thought it over and I thought, “Well, I'll take this child with the idea that, you know…if I decide I'm not going to do this, ahm, I will warn the grandmother ahead of time.” Well, that was perfectly Okay. So I took the child, and we began to see the improvement in her. And she was with me for quite a while, and then they moved away, and—
Wanda: How did you start with her? What did you do to begin with?
Eunice: Basic ballet exercises because the ballet will tone all muscles, and it makes them work, and…ah, with this youngster I had to be careful that she, ah…we didn't push the muscles too hard, because they were in a weakened state to begin. But, ah, she gave me back as much as I was giving her. And I found this reciprocation was apparently what I needed. The applause was not enough - performing, and I knew. I would sit in the dressing room...there had to be more to life than applause and backstage dressing rooms, and so forth. And, ah…so the more I got involved with the kids, the more satisfied I was.
Wanda: And from that one student you started taking others?
Eunice: Uh huh. And I started that child right here in the living room right in front of the fireplace. We used a dining room chair as a bar, you know, for support for her. And, ah, then the following year, ahm, I sub-leased space in the Masonic Temple from another teacher, and the year after that I was on my own. Still in the Masonic Temple, and I'm still there.
Wanda: Oh, still there?
Eunice: Yep. We did twenty-ninth year this year. In March I was teaching twenty-nine years. Wanda: How many recitals is that?
Eunice: About twenty-eight.
Wanda: Yeah?
Eunice: Mm-hm. And I have no idea the number of children I've handled, you know, in that length of time. Ahm…I would say probably close to 3,000. That doesn't seem possible! (laughter). But I'm getting, now, some children of—of students of my own, you know, that I had when they were young. It, ahm—
Wanda: Amazing.
Eunice: Yes, it it's very amazing to me because I don't feel that much older. You know, how can these girls have babies of their own that they're bringing to me? [laughter]
Wanda: Well, it's been good for you physically, too - this sort of work, hasn't it? Keeps you young.
Eunice: I've been very happy in the business. Yes. I think anybody dealing with children...stays young. And of course the dance business is an active profession. I'm not one that can sit in a chair and teach. I'm up working with the kids and—ahm, so that does keep me physically active and I hope physically young.
Wanda: When do you start with them, what ages?
Eunice: I don't take them before they're three and a half. There are, there are teachers that will take them younger than that, but I feel that's glorified babysitting.
Wanda: Oh.
Eunice: I want them to have an attention span where I can work with them. Ahm—they are not going to be ballerinas or tap dancers—well, I don't put them in tap classes 'til they're five—but they aren't going to be little ballerinas, ahm, by the time they're four and a half. But they will at least know what it is to take a—a dance lesson, and they know that, ahm, we work for a while and we also play, but we work first and then we play. And it's, it's very nice to see these children, ahm, learn the patterns that are expected of them. And I find even with the older ones that...maybe some of the problem in today's society is that kids are not given enough responsibility. When we did recital last weekend, I had no adults backstage at all. And I never have had to have. I ask my teenagers if they will take over a group of younger children and be responsible for them so they are where they're supposed to be. And when the teenagers dance, then the little ones have to stay and watch and—ah, no hitches at all, and I have never had any problems. The older ones assume the responsibility and they know I expect it of them and, ahm…they don't let me down. So I—ahm—I wonder if, if maybe we're doing too much for our kids, rather than…
Wanda: I agree.
Eunice: …rather than, you know, making them, ahm, letting them grow up and do the things that they ought to do as young people, if we are not trying to do too much for them ourselves.
Wanda: And accept the responsibilities as they grow into it.
Eunice: Mm-hm.
Wanda: Then—ah, have you had—ah, some special students that you'd like to talk about—that made a career of it or anything like that?
Eunice: No, ahm—one of my students—ah well, we had two of the girls…audition for, ah, one of the Roxy Theater lines. That was for one of the touring lines, and they both made it, and I was naturally very proud and the kids were pleased. So they were to go to New York for rehearsal and, ah, I think they worked for maybe three or four weeks. Ah—that's the way it was when I was working for them—and then they would go on tour. And the girls were there one week and one of them got homesick, and the other one wouldn't stay without her and so that was the end of that. (laughter). But none of my other kids have been really professionally inclined. My niece is a fine little dancer, but she has done it and completely enjoyed it, but doesn't want to follow it. She thought when she started in at Harpur last year, she might want to be a lawyer—ahm—she's not so sure she wants to do that now—ahm—she's, you know, just taking a liberal arts course, but it's—ah, there again, it's her life. She must do what she wants to with it that will satisfy her, not her mother or me or anybody else.
Wanda: The dancing has been a good discipline along the way.
Eunice: Very good...very good. Ahm—and she has a real flair for it. Ahm—it's—you know, I think she could do something with it if she decided she wanted to, but apparently that's not going to fill her life for her. She wants something different. And she has taught with me, you know, on a part-time basis, and she has a great way with the kids, so—um, if she ever decides, you know, that she wants to teach as a sideline for whatever profession she chooses, she can do that and, and still, you know, enjoy her dancing. But she continued this, this year even though she has been to college and, and I have no reason to think that she won't stick with it another year or two. So it's—ah, there's a lot of self-satisfaction that comes out of it as well as satisfying somebody else. It's, it's…I, I think it's, it's a two-way street.
Wanda: Do you have any preference for, for teaching ballet or tap? What other types of dancing?
Eunice: There is modern jazz, too. Twenty years ago I would have said yes, very definitely, that I had a choice—ahm—the tap was always my favorite, but if, now, if somebody said, ""You may teach one or the other,"" I would feel that I had lost one arm or the other if I couldn't do, you know, everything. Ah—it becomes—each is a different expression and you're able to bring different things out of different people with different types of dance.
Wanda: Modern music seems to fit in with the jazz type of dancing.
Eunice: Yes. Now...the...young teenagers—they love the jazz, and, ahm—that—a ballet background helps in that. And a little bit of tap doesn't hurt either, but—ahm—the jazz is, is an expression for the young people.
Wanda: More than an interpretive thing, isn't it?
Eunice: Well—uhm—interpretive to a point. When you're doing modern jazz you're always interpreting somebody else's choreography. In my studio it's my choreography. Ahm—the way I would choreograph a routine. I do encourage the kids to, you know, to give to me what they're feeling with what I'm also giving to them, and—ah, it's very interesting—you get different styles coming out. But I—now there are other schools that there is one style and if you study there, you know, you must have—everybody looks alike…like they came out of a machine. And I, I, I feel that—ah, you know, the kids should be encouraged to express themselves, too. If I see something I don't like, I'll tell them. But I also, if I see something I do like, I tell them.
Wanda: Do you teach—a precision routine in your classes?
Eunice: Yes. That is...I have two precision lines. The junior line I call the Goundrey Girls and the senior line are the Eunettes. And—a—so that the younger kids are working to make a place for themselves in one of these two lines. So we always close the recital with the Eunettes. That has been forever and ever and ever, and it probably will be until they roll me out in a wheelchair. [laughter]
Wanda: With a high kick, huh?
Eunice: But it's—you know we all have our, our own thing that we do, and our studio crowd now expects the Eunettes to close the show and so we do. The thing that is difficult these days is to find music for a line routine. Now that sounds strange, but the disco beat is not a precision line beat, and it's very difficult. And this year we went back to—ah, a version of “In The Mood” for the Eunette number.
Wanda: Is that a fact!
Eunice: It was a new recording, but it was in the old style and it worked beautifully. In fact the Boston Pops recorded it and so we had a fine orchestra behind us...(laughter) by recording—yep. (Phone rings) Excuse me.
Wanda: Um—could you tell us something about the connection with the Roxy road shows?
Eunice: Yes. After I left Radio City Music Hall…ehm, I, you know…went back to school for a while and—um, I decided that I still had to make some money. I was also working at Wanamaker’s in New York and—ah, I—so I took the audition and—at the Roxy—and at the time they were hiring for dancers that they sent out on the road to do State and County Fair work. And so I—they were hiring, you know, like a hundred girls. There was no competition there, not really. And so I went out on the road the first year and during the summer and, ah, thoroughly enjoyed it. However, my family was not very happy at all. When I said I was going to work in the fairs all they could see was a 'girlie' show. And—I—my grandfather, who was very influential in my life, and when I told him, he just had a fit. And I said, ""Grandpa, we will play Elmira,"" and we were playing in front of the grandstand, which would be an arena-type—today an arena-type show. And, ahm—the Roxyettes did five numbers in the show and then there were vaudeville acts in between. It, it was a very lovely stage show—outdoor presentation. So, ahm, I knew what I was doing, but my grandfather was far from convinced, I'll tell you. And when I came, got to Elmira, he was there waiting. (Laughter). I had made the agreement with him that he would see the show and see the set-up, and if he did not approve then I would leave, I would give my notice. Well he was there—we played Elmira for the week, and he was there the first day and he met the company manager and approved of him, which was one step, and he met everyone else and I think he was there three—or four times during that week, really checkin' this thing out for his grandchild. And—he was there to see us leave on our way to Ottawa then, which was our next stop, and he kissed me and he said, ""You have a good time sweetness, you're, you're in good hands."" So I got back in after, off that tour—we got back in on a Sunday, and on Monday the theater called and said, ""We are doing one of the routines that you did on the road and we need a replacement. Will you please come in?"" So I was there then, ahm, you know, for the rest of the time that I was in New York. So, you know, that was a case where they—ahm—apparently had had good reports on me, you know, so I walked right into that—into the theater line, there was no problem. And very much enjoyed it there, but it was there that I began to wonder, you know, is there something more to this life than applause and dressing rooms and what have you?
Wanda: Was that four or five shows a day?
Eunice: Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. And then you rehearsed the one you were going to do, you know, prior to that, in the morning and between shows. But I made some awfully good friends there and I'm, I'm so glad I had the opportunity for those things. And then when I did come home and started to teach, ahm, the Roxy called me back and wanted to know if I wouldn't work summers for them. So I really had the very best of the two lives that I was leading. During the summer I would do the professional work for the Roxy, and I would come back home and open the school in October and work through until June and go into New York and do the same thing over again. And I did that for about seven years. So I finally decided, you know, you must make your choice—one way or the other—and the teaching meant more to me than the performing. And of course when, these days when you're teaching you can still perform with the kids. And so I, I've ended up doing exactly what I wanted to do. I'm so glad somebody didn't say to me, ""You must work in an office the rest of your life."" (Laughter). Maybe there are a lot of people who wouldn't want to teach dancing, but—
Wanda: Well, how about the costumes? Um—I happen to know that you're a pretty good girl with a sewing machine. Ah—have you always been involved in making and designing the costumes for these recitals?
Eunice: Yes. When I first started to teach we had to make all the costumes and—ah, the years have gone by, so costume business has become very commercial, and by sending measurements to various companies we are now able to buy most of the costumes at a fairly reasonable price. By the time you would figure materials and labor and, you know, having to have someone make them, ahm...at least when you order them they come...they're all alike. There are very few alterations have to be done on them. They are done with elastic backs or elastic sides, you know, for the heavier child and the slimmer child—to compensate. Ahm, and from the standpoint that I am doing the direction o the show, then I choose the costumes to go with what I feel, you know, is needed. Ah—the parents all pay for the costumes and then the youngsters have them. Ah—there are always a few that I make each year. Ahm, I think I did eight or nine of them this year that—ah, well I wanted a certain thing and I didn't find it, and in one case I had three little boys in, in a tap class, and they were going to be cowboys. And the girls’ costumes that I had found were white and they were trimmed in blue and white gingham. And they were to wear the little white western hats and, you know, have a few blue spangles. So I asked the mommies of the boys to find some gingham shirt. And they scoured this town. And one of the mommies said, ""The only thing we have found is a size 8 for twelve dollars."" And I said, ""No way."" So I made them. And we came out much better financially—ahm—and I had exactly what I wanted them to have and—ah, you know, but it, it's a rare case like that, these days, that you can't really find what you're after. Ahm—but there are so many costume houses now that there's usually a pretty good variety, and I purposely don't order from one house because then it gets to be all the same style. But, ah, costuming is a lot easier now than it was twenty years ago.
Wanda: How fortunate! You'd have to have an attic overflowing.
Eunice: Yes. Ohhhh. I do have one set of Santa Claus outfits that I made for my Eunettes, and—ah, that was to be an extra number at one time, so I, I made the big coats, and the girls wear red tights, you know, because for a dancing girl you have to be able to see their legs, so—ah, the Santa Claus jackets and caps I kept myself. And at Christmas time when we go around to the nursing homes and so forth, then I bring these out and whoever happens to be in the line at the time wears them—there's no real fit to them—and, ah, that makes a very nice closing to our Christmas program, see. But—ah—yes, there are many things in my attic!
[both laugh]
Wanda: Well, and a lot of memories in your head, too, and I thank you very much—
Eunice: I've enjoyed this.
Wanda: —for telling us about it.
Eunice: It's fun to reminisce!
Wanda: It certainly is.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Sarah Burbank
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 12 July 1978
Susan: Mrs. Burbank, could we begin this interview by having you tell us something about your early beginnings? Where you were born? Something about your parents, what they did, and your early life in the community?
Sarah: Well, let’s go back a little further to my mother. Ah, Mother was ah, one of twelve children, Welsh, all Welsh, and ah, she went to, ah, Bloominburgh to a school to be a teacher and ah, my grandfather and grandmother were very interested in the Church, Congregational Church, and they used to entertain the, ah, minister, you know. Well, one day they had him at the house for dinner and, ah, he said to my grandfather, he said, ""Oh, Mr. Jones, you have a wonderful family,” and my grandfather said, ""But you haven't seen our Gertie."" That was my mother, and as soon as Gertie came home he married her—I mean, not as soon, but they—they fell in love and he married her.
Well, he was a Minister from Wales. He, ah, got his degree from Yale and ah, he got very sick. He died before I was born, and so mother of course went back to my grandmother's and, ah, she taught school and so my grandmother raised me. So that was the beginning, of course, of a spoil, because there were a lot of aunts and uncles and, ah, I loved my grandmother. I didn't like my mother much because she did discipline me. She wouldn't have me spoiled when she was home but grandma used to teach me things, and one thing—this table, which is a marble top table, she taught me how to dust it. I was dusting it, you know, just back and forth any old way and she said, ""Oh look, you must go into those little holes there and dust it thoroughly,” that's one thing, and then she let me iron but I had to get the—the handkerchief straight and iron them straight, fold them perfectly straight, and I remember those things and I think they've stuck by me. Maybe made me a little prissy, I don't know, but I don't see the youngsters doing it nowadays, but ah, anyway mother married again and took me away from my grandmother, and at the time I didn't like it one bit but I can see now that it was better for me, and so ah, my father—I called him “Father”—stepfather was as good and better than some fathers I know. He was a wonderful man but, ah, Mother took out an insurance policy for me to go to school ’cause she had gone to school, and if I remember what she told me, it cost her $500 to go at her time. You're smiling. It doesn't seem possible, and then when I went she took out this policy for $1,000, which would come due when I was of age to go, and I went down to Drexel when I went to school.
Susan: Drexel.
Sarah: Drexel, Philadelphia to take Home Economics. At that time, I went in ’18 and I think—1918—that was a new course, and it wasn't thought too much of right then, cooking and sewing, you know, you could learn that at home. Well anyway I went there, and ah, I don't know whether I got through, ah, for a thousand dollars or not, but I know I helped to wait on table, ah, to make a little more money, and in those days I made $4.00 a week but it seemed like a fortune to me and, ah, well, that was in 1919. I had two years and then I went to teach in Pennsylvania, and Cockinville was the name of the place, down there near Philadelphia, and ah, I went for $1,000 a year, that's what I was paid, nine months, and then I moved up to, ah, Brooklyn, Pennsylvania, which was another little small, but then I taught this Home Economics, that was three years, and then I came to Binghamton, and I taught one year here, but then I was married and our daughter was born and I stayed home.
Susan: What did Mr. Burbank do?
Sarah: He was an insurance man for Prudential and ah, I, ah—I stayed home about five years, I think, until one day Mr. Maston, who was manager of WNBF here, the only radio station we had then, ah, called and asked me if I'd be interested in doing a cooking school of the air. I didn't know what it was all about, but you know youth, well I say, they're brash but they don't have any nerves and they're not afraid of anything. I wasn't then, but I said, ""Well we'll try it,"" and we had to go through voice tests and reading tests and things like that, and finally we started.
I thought it would be for, oh, a few weeks, because they had cooking schools in the schools. I mean they would have a woman come—Home Economics, and she would do it for two or three days, I don't know if you knew that or not, but then ah, I started and went on for a year and, ah, then they decided to just have it radio, and so from then on, well, I think I was doing that for twenty-one years.
Susan: That long?
Sarah: I thought it would be for about two years, but in the meantime of course my daughter was growing, but I was very fortunate to have a woman come in and take care of her when I was gone, you know, and I was able to do the work, ah, for the week. I mean, she would come clean through, you know, and if Rachel, my daughter, was sick, why, she would come over and stay with her while I was gone, but I wasn't gone too long doing radio, you know. Ah, well, the Cooking School of the Air finally went into television, and I didn't want to do that. I'd had—that's a lot of work. (Chuckle.) I don't want to do a lot of work, but you know—- Well, did you ever do any?
Susan: No.
Sarah: Well, you know what you have to do. I did it because I wanted everything to come out right. I had a girl helping me on the cooking school, and she'd help me here. We'd make something what we were going to do that day. We'd do it, oh, quite a few weeks ahead, because ah, we made a recipe folder to give out and they had to be printed and I had to try them first, then ah, we'd go down there the morning of the school—go down to the store. It was in McLean's Silver Salon up on the fifth floor. I'll bet you don't remember that either?
Susan: No.
Sarah: Well, they had their fashion shows and all sorts of things there, and then we'd do that in the morning again so the women could have it to taste, and then in the afternoon we'd do it in front of everybody, so it was too much work for the few of us who were doing it, you know, but of course we had sponsors, too, and we had to, well, we had to give them quite a bit of time. I think some days I'd have as many as seven or eight.
Susan: You did your own commercials?
Sarah: Yes, yes, and they would send them to me, the material, and then I could do it whichever way I wanted to, and that went through all the time I was on radio, but ah, it was very interesting. I enjoyed it very much meeting the people, you know, and I had guests on the—on the air, I had them on the cooking school, too, but it was a lot of fun.
Susan: What was the name of your program?
Sarah: The Sarah Burbank Show. Well, Mr. Maston thought that was best. I left it all up to them, I just did what they thought would be better, and that was, I can see now that was better, because we changed time, sometimes it would be fifteen minutes, and again they'd make it twenty minutes and change the format a little bit, but during that time my daughter, ah, grew up, graduated and from high school and from college. She went to St. Lawrence and then she married.
Susan: What did she study?
Sarah: Well, she studied business—business administration, but, but never did work at it, she got married, ah, she graduated in June and was married the next February, and ah, has two children, and I enjoy them so much, the grandchildren, they’re wonderful. We've had a very full life, my husband and I—we, ah, didn't do extensive traveling, but we went to Florida after we both retired, out to California, Canada, and just have a cottage, and so it's been a very full life—very enjoyable, and it's been wonderful.
Susan: Are you active with any of the local clubs?
Sarah: Not now, I was, ah—I was on the board of the YWCA for a while, and on the board of the Civic Club, too, and of course PTA when Rachel was in school, but ah, no others and not now, not too much now. Well, you know, you give over to the younger people and let them do the work now. It's only fair.
Susan: True.
Sarah: Yes, I think so, and ah, I don't feel as though I could do very much, that is, to keep on, you know, like I used to for the different clubs.
Susan: Mrs. Burbank, it's been very nice chatting with you, and if you don't have anything more to add to this, why, I think we'll close the interview.
Sarah: Fine.
Susan: Thank you very much.
Sarah: Thank you for coming.
",,,,"15:52 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Sarah Burbank",,,,1978-07-12,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Burbank, Sarah -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Home economics teachers -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Drexel University; Radio programs; Radio stations; Cooking School",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d6e9f75c0014fd3a8a93fd1e8d9fa349.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dda691bbf2adad9a772e08c0220c3b31.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7700f8cc53b9b1738bec7d6650a9c416.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/08c51d85cf893196fffcd54334257cb9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9693479ea323f8a31ecbf7ab1550463c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bd70eb2bb417cf856e96e9d5b8a7f45d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a8fa787cb937a621460ae28dc2da94de.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c781a998ab04e1d011c7bc47b4045c3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d70193fa64eba7966d0f5bde51a60dd1.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 532,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/532,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"25:51 Minutes ; 6:25 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Michael M. Perhach ",,"Perhach, Michael M. ; Politylo, Nettie",,"audio/mp3 ","Perhach, Michael M. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Pharmacists -- Interviews; Albany College of Pharmacy; National Association of Retail Druggists (U.S.); New York State Board of Pharmacy; Junior High Pharmacy; Binghamton Exchange Club; Binghamton Recreation Commission; Kalurah Temple; Russian Orthodox Religion","Michael M. Perhach talks about being involved with the church during his youth as his father was an Archpriest in the Russian Orthodox church. He talks about the many places his family lived before moving to Binghamton. He graduated from Albany College of Pharmacy and operated the Junior High Pharmacy in Binghamton. He speaks of his involvement in the community organizations such as the Binghamton Exchange Club, Binghamton Recreation Commission, and the Kalurah Temple. He speaks of professional organizations he is a member of, such as, the National Association of Retail Druggists and N.Y.S. Board of Pharmacy.",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-07-12,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 48 ",,"Politylo, Nettie","Perhach, Michael M.",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Michael M. Perhach
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Date of interview: 12 July 1978
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, talking to Michael M. Perhach of 17 Crary Ave., Binghamton, NY, on July 12, 1978. Michael, will you tell us about your life and experiences in the community? Michael: Where do you want me to start? Do you want me to start with my mother and dad, where they were born and everything? Good. My father was born in Varinov, Austria-Hungary on March 4, 1877 and he came to America in May 4, 1894a—went to American schools—went right to Wilkes-Barre and became a choir director in Wilkes-Barre in 1896—at the salary of twenty dollars a month. I happen to see some old notes here that he wrote about 65 or 70 years ago and I translated. It is written in the Russian language, very nice handwriting, and I translated it from the Russian to the English. He was ordained a Reader in 1905 by the late Patriach Tihon—ordained a deacon May 22, 1909—and the following day, May 23, 1909 he was ordained a priest by Metropolitan Platon of New York City in New York City. The reason he waited until 1909 he was serving with Archpriest Toth who was one of the first who accepted Orthodoxy in America. Father Toth was a priest in the Wilkes-Barre parish, at that time, and he made the remark at one stage, I know, my dad used to tell me that he said, ""I don't want you to be ordained a priest until after I die."" Well, Father Toth wanted him to remain to be as his psalomshchik or his choir director and reader. But, Father Toth died on May 9 and sure enough, two weeks later my father decided then to be ordained a priest. He received many many nagradi or promotions what we call for his services to the Orthodox Church. His first parish up in Canada—Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba. In fact, at the time he was ordained he had three children, my oldest sister, Alexandra, Nicholas and John - and my sister, Lydia, was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba and then from there we went to Jacob's Creek, PA. That's where I was born—that's some 66-65 years ago and from Jacob's Creek we went to Brownsville, PA. He had parishes at, then, at Bayonne, NJ, and finally in Binghamton, NY, where he had his last parish—when we came to Binghamton, NY, why, that is the reason why I am in here. I came to Binghamton back in 1927. My mother, however, was born in America—was born in Wilkes-Barre Sept. 26, 1887. She just passed on last November at the age of ninety. My dad passed on will be 25 years this August, August 29. I started to talk about my dad's various promotions, now he received the Bereda, soft Bereda in 1916, then the hard Bereda or the kamilavka, as we call it, in 1917 and became an Archpriest in 1925 and he received a Palitza in 1938. The Palitza is one of the great honors given typical profound zeal for faith and for work for Orthodoxy and is conferred on the record, more or less on the record of honor. I told you, I have two brothers and two sisters and I am the youngest of all of them. we came to Binghamton, of course, because of this parish. My dad then retired.
I went to grammar school in Brownsville, PA, then we went to Mingo Junction. I skipped Mingo Junction, Ohio, where I went to grammar school—then we went to Bayonne, NJ—we were there for a period of nine months. I went for one year of high school then came to Binghamton in 1927. I had two years of high school here, graduated from Binghamton Central in the year of 1930. I stayed out of school a year—in fact, I worked at the Carlova Perfume Factory and while working at the perfume factory—why—my dad wanted me—first he asked—if I wanted to become a priest. I said, ""No,"" I said, ""I'll think about it""—although I was close to the church—and all—I was directing the choir at the church when I was fifteen years old and I had a fairly good voice, so, I was singing in the choir, also. My dad said, ""All right, stay out of school a year and then decide what you want.""
In the meantime, my uncle, John Yosack, in Wilkes-Barre was a undertaker. He wanted me to be an undertaker, so, I was to choose between an undertaker and a priest. Well, I stayed out of school a year—got a job with Carlova Perfume Factory and going to work at 7:30 o'clock in the morning till 4. One morning (winter) when I was going to work in the snow I decided, I said, “Well, this is not for me.” So, I came home told my dad–well, incidentally, my brother, Nick, was a pharmacist—”I think I will go into—pharmacy.”
The following September I went to Albany College of Pharmacy. In that time that was a three year course and I graduated Albany College of Pharmacy in 1934. I was born in Jacob's Creek, like I said, I was graduated from Albany College of Pharmacy in 1934. I came to Binghamton, naturally. I was living in Binghamton. I worked for one year and a half at the Junior High Pharmacy, at the time it was owned by Everett Crone—Crone Pharmacy and after year and half I bought the store, that's in 1936 in February. I've been in business—since 42 years or 43 years. I've been very active in the pharmacy profession. I was a member of Alpha Theta Chapter of Phi Delta Chi Fraternity. In 1949 I took a partner, Charles Jakaitis, we call him, Chick, as a junior partner. One time we had two stores, then three stores, then two stores and now, we just have one store, Junior High Pharmacy. I was president of the New York Pharmaceutical Society in 1953 and 1954, I think it was, and was member of the Executive Committee for about 12 years, and then decided to go to the National Pharmaceutical Politics so, I was a member of the National Association of Retail Druggists Executive Committee became its president 1968-1969. The National Association Retail Druggists is a organization composed of independent pharmacies, some 32 to 35,000—which took me away from the business for a while—for a whole year—was making trips to various pharmaceutical state conventions and also to other meetings and all with the association. The headquarters are in Chicago—at the present time the headquarters are in Washington, D.C. I'm past president, I've also active with the Federated Russian Orthodox Clubs, commonly known as the ""R"" Club. I was president of the Federated Russian Orthodox Clubs in 1941-1942 for two years. I was also about three or four years later a member of the Metropolitan Council which is the council of the composed of a priest and three lay persons in the Orthodox Church of America. At that time, the late Metropolitan Theophilis was the Metropolitan.
I was also active with the Exchange Club and a past president of Binghamton Exchange Club, past Exalted Ruler of the Elks No. 852 in Binghamton. In the city, I was on the Recreation Commission appointed by the late Walker Lounsberry some 30 years ago—I served on that commission for about 24 years, and four different times I was its chairman, active in many of the civic and community projects. I’m a member of the Binghamton Lodge Masons #177, Otsiningo Consistory and the Kalurah Temple (Shrine). Also, this marks my 50th year singing in our choir in the St. Mary's Assumption Church on Baxter street. Also, I sang with the Otsiningo Quartet for 10 years. I found in addition to this, I found time to run my business and all and I might say a very successful business. I have one son who is 26 years old now, like his dad, also, went to Albany College of Pharmacy—graduated in 1975—he's a licensed pharmacist and he is taking over most of the management of the business, now.
Nettie: Michael, I think you wanted to add something to this—
Michael: Yes, I married the former Julia Sabol on February 27, 1949. I mentioned we have one son, 26 years old. The story goes—I was married on February 27, 1949 and our son was born on February 21—that was three years later—I am happily married. Is there anything more you want to hear?
Nettie: I was asking you what you think of the generics they are talking about these days.
Michael: Well the generic substitution law, I think you mean, that went into effect April 1st.
Nettie: Yes.
Michael: Well, the generic substitution law was a law that was supposedly, a consumer-oriented law, hoping to save the consumers—pharmacy, drug—consumers—money. But, really, it doesn't work out that way. It is added a burden on a lot of pharmacies because they have to duplicate the inventory and it's true, some of the drugs you might be able to buy some of the drugs for $7.50 per 100, you can get a generic for $2.50. But there are good and bad generics. There are some generic houses, in fact, the health department came out with a book—a green book—about 30-40 pages, in which they said these drugs are permissible to substitute and yet, they are not obtainable. Manufacturers, we never heard of, some of the manufacturers—some of the ""bathtub""—so-called ""bathtub"" manufacturers—now some of the drugs don't even dissolve in the system—they’re not absorbed in the system. And the reputable stores, like our own, we handle about 20-25 of the most commonly generic drugs. For example on the diuretic which would be Diuril—hydrochlorothiazide. We handle Park Davis, which is a reputable company, and there is a saving of about 1/3 on what you would pay for your regular brand of the Diuril. The same is true on Librium—chlordiazepoxide. We do have generics on that, and which is quite a saving—where the physician now on all these blanks he has a permission granted for generic substitution or not—if he signs on the left—you must dispense as written and if he signs on the right—then we must substitute. The physician is supposed to discuss this with the patient, of course, physicians are busy. A lot of them do, some do and some don't. However, if they do sign on the left we must dispense as written—if he signs on the right it's not our choice, it's not the customer, patient's choice, we must substitute—if its substitutable and if we don't have it in stock we just have to give the prescription back and have to go to a store where they can obtain it.
It brings to my mind, a man came in with crutches just got discharged from a hospital—he had a chipped bone in the ankle or so. He came in with prescription for a pain pill—the doctor said to substitute—at that time I didn't have a generic—cheaper generic—he said, “I'm in PAIN, I don't care what it is—I want my medicine—I'm not going to go from store to store."" Well, I had him sign on the prescription, which is illegal, sign on the prescription, he said, ""I’m in pain,” said, “I told the pharmacist to give me the brand drug""—which I did. It only cost him $2.50, how much could he have saved when the man is in pain? So, the generic law, really, isn't all what it ought to be—it has its good points and but it also has its bad points. Now there are some ah—ah—pharmacies, I don't think we have them in our county—somewhere in New York City and other cities who will use the cheapest drug and they still charge for expensive drug—that has been happening—we find that out time and time again. I'm a member of the New York State Board of Pharmacy appointed by Board of Regents. We had many many cases that come before us when we have—5%, maybe less than that, who ruin a profession like just like it’s true of any profession. There are less than 5% of the doctors are bad and 98% are good and that's true with the dentists or any profession—and it’s too bad that is true but it's happening—to be a fact way of life.
But as far as the generic law—then the interpretation of the law when it was first passed, April 1st—the Board of Pharmacy interpreted the law to mean in the event we did not have the drug we can could give another, we can give the brand name. Well, Rosemary Pooler who was very consumer oriented, in fact, she is on the payroll, and a fellow by the name of Haddad who was on Assemblyman Stinegood's payroll and consumer oriented—they said, the Board of Pharmacy is trying to protect the pharmacist and not the public. So, with all of the ballyhoo they said it was not the intent of law, Assemblyman Stinegood said it was not intent so it was not written in the law right so, as long as it was not the intent—why we then interpreted that in the event we have a pharmacist does not have the generic—why then of course, they have to refuse the prescription which is a hardship on the consumer, themselves. But that is the way they want us to interpret. Now, if you have any questions on the law itself—
Nettie: Michael, I think you covered pretty much about everything I asked you to. Is there something you want to add?
Michael: Well, as I said I'm on the Board of Pharmacy and my term expires next June 1979. It is very interesting work and we have hearings in New York City and Buffalo—most of them are in New York City. It is very interesting—talking about three or four days a month. Incidentally, since the first of January, why we have two consumer members on the Board of Pharmacy and one of them happens to be Jim Staley, Legislature right here in Broome County and the other consumer member is a lady from down Long Island. They sit in with us, except they sit in with us on the Board of Pharmacy everything except with the Board Examination and all, which is of course they know nothing about. They, Board of Pharmacy, we do give exams for candidates, I think, this last June we had, it would be a shot in the dark, they had 800 candidates for Pharmacy. Pharmacy is now a five year course and after a pharmacy student, after third year they apply for internship and he had to have three months between his third and fourth year, three months between his fourth and fifth year at which he will be eligible to take State Board.
The State Board is divided into three parts—Part 1-2-3. Part 1 is a written examination—a lot of it is multiple choice—that is made out by the State Education Department of Testing. Part 2, combination of laws and also pharmacy and pharmacology, and that is made up by members of the State Board. Part 3, practical application which you are actually in a laboratory all and it also has to deal with interaction—drug interaction, telephone prescriptions, anything pertaining to the practice, itself. Parts 1 and 2 can be taken without before you can take internship, immediately after graduation, but Part 3 you have your 6 month internship. If you pass your exam, you of course become licensed in the State of New York.
Being licensed in the State of New York you, then after practicing for one year you can reciprocate with any state in the United States except Florida, Alaska, Hawaii or California—those are the four states. However, someone, like myself—I took the Florida board ten years ago—I'm licensed in the State of Florida, also by examination. Examinations are according to the candidates—seemed to be rather tough, but they're not—a lot of them pass and a lot of them don't. After all we have to—Board of Pharmacy, of course, for the protection of the health citizenship state—not for the protection of the pharmacist or for the students. Have you any other questions?
Nettie: No, that's quite interesting, I think very much so. Michael, I just have one more question—I'd like to have you explain the differences in pharmacy, say 20 years ago or so and now.
Michael: Yes, it was quite different when I went into business some 42 years ago. At that time we used to make our own capsules and pills and powders. I used to make a lot of different solutions—some stores even made their own citrate magnesia—we'd make our alexo-phenobarbatal and all, and now of course we buy those in gallons—capsules and tablets in the hundreds or in thousands. We depend on manufacturers on these. At the time, of course, there weren't the number of drugs that we have now. Now we do have so many drugs and with all the new ones coming up chances of interaction is greater—what I mean of interaction is that you taking one drug and if the physician prescribes another drug why either will inhibit the action of this one drug and might in some cases cause death or bleeding. An example is coumadin, which is blood thinner—one person cannot take aspirin with coumadin because they will bleed more. There are cases on record where they have taken aspirin with coumadin where they bled to death. So, there's other interaction between various drugs that we have to know, the more drugs that we have the more naturally there is a possibility there are of interactions, that what our pharmacologists in various laboratories and various manufacturers have to contend with. When they come out with a new drug, the pharmacologists have to test it against all the drugs that are out to see whether there will be any interaction or any danger in taking the drug in conjunction with another one. Of course, the pharmacy itself is a pharmacist’s—the old drug stores, we knew it was a common meeting place where all people meet and everything and they carried all their first aid supplies in addition to lot of sundry items. Nowadays, of course, your larger pharmacies especially our chain stores they have everything, even paint, pickles and everything which, of course, I don't approve of—but we do have a lot of pharmacies that just do stick to the first aid supplies, prescriptions and over the counter items, drugs—but they do have good nice cosmetic outlets—also, good card section, good candy sections, boxed candy and all which of course goes with a neighborhood pharmacy, especially in all. So, the difference of course, in the practice of pharmacy is really changed, we counsel patients now where we did not before. Prescriptions, forty years ago, cost 35¢—you just ring it up, say goodbye, and that was it—and now the same prescription cost is $1.85 in all, but the pharmacists in most good pharmacies talk to the patient and ask them if they are taking any other drugs and warn them for example—tetracycline—you should not stay in the sun too long when you take any tetracycline, which is Achromycin—any tetracyclines. Also, penicillin should be given on an empty stomach either 1 hour before meals or 2 hours after meals—should not take any milk or any dairy product with tetracycline—least 1 or 2 hours apart and all these things—we counsel the patients and customers what to do where years ago that was never done. We’d talk to them and ask how the family is—but as far as discussing the drugs itself, why—it was not done, of course, with Labeling Act we have to label all our prescriptions now and everything is labeled and everybody knows the name of the drug that they are taking—so years ago why when we made four or five ingredients to make one preparation, one powder, why we could not label the drugs and say what was and all. That's about the difference then and now.
Nettie: Thank you, Michael.
Michael: You’re welcome.
",,,,"25:51 Minutes ; 6:25 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Michael M. Perhach",,,,1978-07-12,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Perhach, Michael M. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Pharmacists -- Interviews; Albany College of Pharmacy; National Association of Retail Druggists (U.S.); New York State Board of Pharmacy; Junior High Pharmacy; Binghamton Exchange Club; Binghamton Recreation Commission; Kalurah Temple; Russian Orthodox Religion ",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6339c557fe41025ea5902bfe128bda02.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b5a36e03c8cf128d794d08e191433488.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b08220e60e57e5468ddcf95324ba9b2f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/855d1268c316d01678cb4e51d785a94b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1056f65fb0ad224549c0292b67d20242.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f8d19a157a0145a884df0777f3f13288.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a592eaee24341463d97837ebc0a6237f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ec99cc45499fc9a92a9b32538ccb2dda.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/97fd6f29af35c1f221e3ee4014e7e6bb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/60e82d6dc5c69cc49691a3af902baa1b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b8e59cb08982b3dc10c861eb96fc3f01.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/39e39c79400f83d2180095e9b2b6ff42.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e5f599823ce20d4ab71ce79e3193fd04.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2c89bd8605017a12b220a94dee6902e4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2565b89be7857b974d389c54c067f907.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f47d0e5b73bb5d65fe2d0e3fbaa7fd5f.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/45ec1e7f01012ee3ed7ec53d4c179a4e.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 533,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/533,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"23:11 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Louise Petras ",,"Petras, Louise ; Caganek, Anna",,"audio/mp3 ","Petras, Louise -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Household employees -- Interviews; Chenango Bridge (N.Y.); Farms ","Louise Petras talks about emigrating to the U.S. from Czechoslovakia at the age of thirteen, her work cleaning houses for a variety of people, and living on a farm in Chenango Bridge. She also discusses obtaining her citizenship papers. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-07-15,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 49 ",,"Caganek, Anna","Petras, Louise",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Louise Petras
Interviewed by: Anna Caganek
Date of Interview: 14 September 1978
Anna: I am Anna Caganek, dating to viewer, talking to Mrs. Louise Petras. 234 Clinton St., Binghamton, New York. Date is September 14, 1978.
Louise: Louise Petras. Louise Petras. Breginsky! [sic]
Anna: Mm-hm.
Louise: I came up here
Anna: My mother and father, yes.
Louise: My father came - 1900. My sister came - 1901. And my mother came - 1903. The youngest one. And my other sister, I came - 1905. And my other sister came - 1906. Came, we livin’ on Pennsylvania - that’s near Harrisburg. I was working, it was about, it was [unintelligible]
Anna: Mm-hm.
Louise: I was working at Good Samaritan Hospital six months, and then I went to Buffalo to my aunt, and I was working in a hotel. When I was 16 years old, I got married…like a crazy. You write that? Then I still was working houses all the time. Was working over and over…housework. I never work in a factory. And then I came to Binghamton. My husband, he was working up here, and I was cleaning houses for everybody. For Mrs. Hamlin, I was working 14 years; Mrs. Smith; Dr. Kane, John; Dr. Kane, Paul. I did - and Dr. Gregory. I can’t think if he was living on a, on a…knick…doctor, doctor…mm, I, I can’t think of his name now.
Anna: Tell me what, though, when you came to Ellis Island what they did.
Louise: And then I came here from the ship. So I went to…now [unintelligible]
Anna: Ellis Island.
Louise: Ellis Island. And I stay there overnight.
Anna: They look you over…?
Louise: They looked me over. Then next morning, I went on a tra, trantor [sic] living on Pennsylvania.
Anna: What was the name of the - you came, the ship?
Louise: Kaiser Willhelm. I came on Kaiser Willhelm. And [laughs] [foreign], we sleep over and [foreign].
Anna: Mm-hm.
Louise: And I tell you, I never see so many people in a ship. And I got lice now. I tell you. [laughs] So when, when I came to, to Lebanon, my mother first was doing my hair. Clean my hair. So I didn’t have any no more.
Anna: Do you know when you got married, or where you got married?
Louise: Oh, I ain’t got married ‘till - ‘cause I was 13 years old. And then I went up to Buffalo and I was working up there in a hotel, in a kitchen.
Anna: Mm-hm.
Louise: And then I was - I have typhoid fever. I was, eh, for 11 weeks I was sick. And I thought, “I’m gonna go.” But, I guess they didn’t want me up there. So then, you know…I have kids after kids - kids after kids. So when I moved from Buffalo to Lebanon - back to Lebanon [Pennsylvania] - I still was working. And…[foreign] I wanna say something, you know…I was working in Buffalo, housework, every place. Then I went back again to Victor, Buffalo. And I was working up there, I don’t know how many years. That was my job. And here I was, working all over the doctors. I was working, I guess, 14 - 8, 16 years after Mrs. Hamilton, and she had the drug store. But, housework. And then for John Smith’s wife, I was working housework. Dr. Kane, John, I was working housework. Dr. Paul Kane, I was working…Mrs. - Dr. Marino, I was working up there year and a half. Then I went back…
Anna: And what’s the name of the…was, uh, the doctor? So I didn’t even know…?
Louise: Dr. Pollmak, over two years. I was working hard, you know. I never worked in a factory because I didn’t understand factory. So I was working housework.
Anna: Hm.
Louise: And you know how that is when you have kids after kids. I have 14 kids. I have 11 boys and, and 2 girl - 3 girls. Now, I got two boys left and one girl. They, all of them died when they was 15…22. Then I was on a farm. I liked it in a farm up on Chenango Forks. We was up there only 10 years, and then move again, [unintelligible]
Anna: Well, tell ‘em how nice the people were in those days.
Louise: And that not, that time, the people was very nice. They help each other. If you need help, the people help you; if they need help, you help them. We never fight. ‘Cause they, they always was nice. Nadda, not like nadda.
Anna: No.
Louise: You won’t get any help now for them. And everything was cheap. So my mother paid $3.50 rent - we had five rooms. But they had water water outside - you had to carry it. I tell you: The people so nice to you. God, if you need this - if you need money, they lend you. If you need help, something like, uh…do you know how much we pay for a pound of pork chops? We pays $0.10 pound of pork chops; $0.04 a hot dogs pound; and $0.06 of beef for soup. How you like that? $0.25 for dozen eggs. The, we used to buy 100 pounds of sugar for $4.00. And 100 pounds of flour because my mother used to bake bread. Now, see how, how people was that time? How they helped each other? But now, lookit: They don’t pay any attention to nobody. I can’t understand how that’s gonna come. And I tell you this much: My grand, grandmother was 96 years when I went here.
And she told us what’s gonna happen. And it’s coming! And nobody gonna wanna believe it. And it’s gonna be worse than it is. Because people don’t care; they don’t help each other like they used to do. I can understand why. There are still the kids stealing, they are killing. That’s what my great-grandmother said, that that’s what’s gonna come, and this is the year [it]’s coming. Now, believe me or not. Too bad I am not up there so I can tell you the straight how is it. But, nah. We paid, you know how much we paid for shoes? $0.50 a pair and $1.50 for the good one[s]. And $0.03 a yard for good, for make new clothes. Now, isn’t it nice up there that time?
Anna: That was probably the 19…eh, the 20s and 30s. Like that.
Louise: Yeah.
Anna: Like, uh…19, uh…
Louise: That was, that was what?
Anna: 1920s?
Louise: Not 30…? Yeah.
Anna: 1930s…and, yeah.
Louise: Yeah. That’s, that…people helped each other.
Anna: 30s. And up to 19…um, uh, 40s, wasn’t it?
Louise: Yeah. Everything - believe me, if you buy coat? $75.00. $75.00, or that was, was the best one. And when the hairdre- when the lady made dresses, she charge you $0.50 for dress. $0.03 for pound; $0.03 a yard, we bought. And then we had everything like that. You don’t believe that, and that’s true. It’s too bad that I can’t do it right straight, you know. To tell them what it what - what we went through. And in the summertimes, you should see the people. They was, my sister’s husband [laughs] was playing accordion and, eh, was dancing outside. Help each other, no- not like now. This is, this is awful what they’re now. [unintelligible] Yep, that’s, that’s true. That’s a, that’s a thing that I can…’course, I went a few days to school. A school home - Mrs. Lee used to teach us. And Ms. Hess come up, you know.
Anna: That’s when you got your paper [proof of citizenship]?
Louise: That’s when I got my paper.
Anna: 1934?
Louise: 1934, I guess. Yep. All the people was nice each other that time. That’s, I don’t think that never gonna happen no more. No. ‘Cause now, you’re afraid to go out. Outside.
Anna: No cars then, days, so no…
Louise: They didn’t have any - so much cars. There was few of them, but…
Anna: Mm-hm.
Louise: Boy, I tell you…
Anna: How did you go, get to the farm? On the car, then? They, uh…
Louise: We, we have a car; we have a truck on a farm.
Anna: What did you do on the farm?
Louise: We wha-farmer, and we was selling milk. And potatoes…and I took eggs: $0.25 a dozen. So…then I pick up the white…I went in a field. Pick, pick up the mushroom - the white ones, the early one. Bushels. I went up there every morning; I went up there, I came up the Main Street, and I said, “Here: Divide it. How much you want? How much you want?”
Now sometimes, I made butter. When the flood hit, we didn’t have any, any place to get the milk, so…I made butter. That’s, that’s the way was my life. So…and I liked it ‘cause there was people.
Anna: Everybody was happy.
Louise: Everybody was happy and there was a people nice. They appreciate you when you come up there, but now? Look at now. I can understand. And believe me or not, it’s gonna be worse. You say, “I can understand.”
Anna: What year did your husband die?
Louise: My husband? Oh, he was, uh…
Anna: He used to build houses.
Louise: He used to build…my husband was a builder - he used to build, uh, houses. Stucco houses and every kind of, uh…that’s why he built, uh…up here, up on the six-
Anna: Sokolovna?
Louise: Huh?
Anna: Sokolovna?
Louise: Yeah! This, this one.
Anna: Tell ‘em, tell ‘em.
Louise: This, this…or…
Anna: Tell ‘em.
Louise: Well, they’re gonna, they’re gonna have to see this up there. My husband build that.
Anna: Yeah, the Sokolovna. Tell ‘em.
Louise: The Sokolovna up here, yes.
Anna: Tell ‘em.
Louise: Yes.
Anna: Tell ‘em.
Louise: My husband was good builder and everybody likes him. Even Father Cyril, when he was fixing something in a church. But, now? They won’t pay any attention to nobody.
Anna: What did you go…? What did you do? Like, did you go out for a good time in Ithaca?
Louise: Oh, no.
Anna: No.
Louise: We didn’t go for good time. We went with somebody got married - the wedding. But, we didn’t go to dance or something like that.
Anna: Vacation?
Louise: No, no. Never, no-
Anna: But, you were happier, though?
Louise: We was happy, I don’t care. But not, not like now. You gotta be scared now when you go out. Well, this is awful - everything. Believe me or not, and it’s gonna get worse. And believe me or not because I read the Bible - all Bible and there everything said.
Anna: So, don’t…?
Louise: Yeah, that’s true. That’s not, I’m not lying because I never lie, and I was working at rich people - doctors, everything. I never touched nothing.
Anna: What church you go to?
Louise: Uh, eh…what church we went?
Anna: What church you go to? St. Cyril?
Louise: St. Cyril, I’ll go. And then I was living on, uh, Rotary Ave., we went down, St. Thomas. Yes. And the people was happy. Now? Gosh. I don’t think take care of street, people across street on Rotary Ave. But now, you have to be afraid to go out. That’s why I don’t go out - because I’m afraid. One thing, um, [I’m] already 86 years and 6 months - 5 months. And I can’t see very good, so I have to sit in house. That’s…so there you are. That’s my story. Too, too bad I don’t know how to write. Because I went to school - we used to have the school home, you know. Twice a week, Mrs. Lee used to teach us.
Anna: And what’s, eh…when you came to this country, you were how old were you when you came to…?
Louise: I was 13 years old when I came here to this country. Nyet. Then I got a job down at Good Samaritan Hospital.
Anna: Hm. Well, you came from Czechoslovakia, off, it was at that time Austria-Hungary.
Louise: Yeah, that was, eh…it used to belong to Franz Joseph, that time.
Anna: Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Louise: But I, I came up here on, uh…what was the ship I told you?
Anna: Yeah, you did.
Louise: So not the way…well, be better for me if I sent somebody intact.
Anna: Mm-hm. Could you think of anything else?
Louise: I was in a hospital…I don’t know how many. The first, I was in that old, old hospital that was on a fifth floor, and we got out first. When was that? That storm? That, that come.
Anna: Oh, you mean, like the…the big storm?
Louise: Yeah, storm. And that, that building went like this.
Anna: Shaking. Tell ‘em.
Louise: Shaking [laughs]. Yeah. I used to tell the nurse how to supposed to clean and mass-
Anna: You mean the City Hospital?
Louise: And massage.
Anna: City Hospital?
Louise: No. Down, down…at City Hospital, I, uh…
Anna: Wilson Memorial…?
Louise: Wilson! Yeah. But, that was the old, old…that’s a long time-
Anna: Uh-huh.
Louise: -because I was up there. I don’t know how long. I used to massage the woman [sic]. You know?
Anna: Yeah.
Louise: And there was this one nurse, she said, “What are you doing?”
I said, “So what? If she asks me, and her backs hurts, why not?”
I used to help how much I could, and then I got so sick. Then I, five weeks. Fi- I think five weeks. Five weeks, I didn’t even talk to nobody, I didn’t even, any…just feed me by the, the tube. ‘Cause I have…wait a minute, what I did I have?
Anna: Typhoid fever?
Louise: No.
Anna: Scarlet fever?
Louise: Something I, I do know…
Anna: I thought you had one of those.
Louise: I forgot already. But, uh…
Anna: Typhoid, didn’t you say?
Louise: The, the first one…that was on my story - oh! I have ulcers.
Anna: Oh, ulcers. Mm-hm.
Louise: Yeah, the first one I was up there. And I used to, used to laugh at them, you know. I said, “Do you clean? Did you call this clean?” I said, “Gee, I could clean it for a few minutes and it look awful nice.”
‘Cause I’ve brought like that when I was in Europe, when I, when my mother left me, I was eight years old. And I started work, you know? And that’s why, that’s why I’m…if I clean, I clean. If I don’t, I don’t. I’ve been bragging, but everybody likes me. Especially when I make the home noodles. [clears throat]
Anna: Tell ‘em.
Louise: I used to make home noodles.
Anna: Mmm.
Louise: Up to Smiths? Boy, you should see.
Anna: You ought to give me some if you’ve got ‘em so I can show the girls.
Louise: You should see how they fight about it. God, I, for five eggs. I’ve, I made noodles for them.
Anna: Mmm.
Louise: Then I put hot butter on it? Oh, you should have seen them. No, I’m not bragging, but I tell you: Every place I was working, they likes me. Everybody, no matter who was. Yes.
Anna: And that’s all? You can’t think of anything else?
Louise: And that’s right, I can’t think of any-[laughs].
Anna: Are you sure?
Louise: Yeah. But, don’t put me in a jail.
Anna: Oh, okay.
Louise: ‘Cause I don’t wanna go to jail now because there’s lots of-
Anna: [chuckles]
Louise: -bad guys up there.
Anna: Well, you want me to stop it now?
Louise: That’s okay. [foreign]
Anna: [foreign]
Louise: [foreign]
Anna: [foreign]
Louise: [foreign]
Anna: Yeah, go on.
Louise: 67…$67.00. 67 years old when I went for the first time for my Social Security. You know, when you get the money.
Anna: So, Social Security?
Louise: Social Security, something. I went in the court, and I asked the man, I said, “Are you sure this belongs to me?” I said, “I don’t wanna go jail.”
And then he said, “Well, they need woman up there cook for them and clean.”
I said, “Boy, if I go up there, they gonna be quiet.”
[laughs] So the, two months later, they call me up. He said, “I got $280.00 for you.”
I said, “No, I don’t, not want it. I don’t wanna go to jail.”
And they started laughing. He said, “Don’t be afraid; that belongs to you.”
‘Cause I was 62 years, I didn’t went up there, asked, ‘till I was 57.
Anna: 67.
Louise: 67. So there you are. But, you know? It’s hard to talk now, this way. But, if I was with you? I, maybe I could have better one.
Anna: No, that’s alright - you’ve said everything. Well, that’s it then, huh? I’ll shut it off now.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Louie Cole
Interviewed by: Wanda Wood
Date of interview: 25 July 1978
Wanda: This is Wanda Wood interviewing Mr. Louie Cole, Beers Road, Castle Creek in the Town of Chenango, and the date is the 25th of July, 1978. Mr. Cole, will you tell us where you were born and what year? [Pause] OK. [Pause]. Where were you born? [Pause]. OK.
Louie: Well, I was born in Chenango Forks on June 12th, 1889. (Chuckles).
Wanda: That's—ah, eighty... [89 years].
Louie: My—ah…father and mother, they'd…had built the house the year before, and had moved down from the farm on the hill.
Wanda: So you were born right in Chenango Forks?
Louie: Well…the first farm coming west out of the Forks, it was, it was really right in the village, or on the edge of the village, you know. Ummm—and my father had another farm a mile west of that—ah, where they had moved from, down there.
Wanda: Well, where did you go to school?
Louie: At, ah, Chenango Forks. They had a union school there, Chenango Forks Union School. The—the fire station is right where the school used to be. It was a—a four room school…up to the eleventh grade. If you wanted to high-school-graduate the last year, you have to go somewheres else. Some people, ah, I know—ah, a few went to Whitney's Point…to graduate. My brother, ah, went to Binghamton, and I guess the people from Castle Creek area here, some of 'em went to Binghamton and some of ‘em went to Whitney Point for that last year, ya know.
Wanda: So you were a farmer until when?
Louie: Well, I was a farmer until I was elected Highway Superintendent for—well, I guess I was elected in the election of 1928 and took office in January 1st, 1929.
Wanda: Well you've seen quite a few changes, then, haven't you?
Louie: (Chuckles). Oh yeah. Yeah. I couldn't begin to…name ‘em.
Wanda: Well, one thing that's changed for sure is the equipment for that department, isn't it?
Louie: Oh yes. Yeah. As far as equipment is concerned, ah…what we had and what we, what they have now—we didn't have anything then. (Laughs).
Wanda: Hand tools, eh?
Louie: We had two—we had two old Dodge trucks and one…K.R. Brockway, and they were, they both were old and were all, well, three of them were old and worn out, really. I finally…after…a few years, got, began to get some new equipment or new trucks that we could work with, ya know. And—ah, drivers not only like to take care of a new truck and use it good, where when it got old, they… It couldn't get old fast enough then. Get rid of it.
Wanda: But you probably always had—ah, somebody to maintain them, didn't you? Did you do it yourself?
Louie: Do with what?
Wanda: Did you maintain the trucks yourself?
Louie: Well, mostly, mostly. Yeah, we did, we did all that we could do with them, but the, but the grinding of the valves and if they'd have to have new rings or something like that. Of course now they never change rings in a—in a motor, but—ah, back then that was the proper thing to do after...so many years. And—ah, we didn't have the equipment to do that.
Wanda: You had a, a town garage, did you...to work out of?
Louie: Well, we had a town barn.
Wanda: Umhmm. Where was that?
Louie: Well, right...where it's located now.
Wanda: In Castle Creek, huh?
Louie: The town garage is, yeah. Yeah, there was...it was an old barn with a plank floor...and…and the cracks in the floor. It was colder'n as if it had been outdoors, ya know. (Laughter).
Wanda: You probably didn't have any coffee machines either, did you?
Louie: (Chuckles). No, that's for sure, or instant coffee, we didn't have either... hoo!
Wanda: Well when you started out you had—what, how many men did you have for a crew?
Louie: How many men?
Wanda: Yeah.
Louie: Well there was about...in the...about four regular men that we had all the while. That is...but they only worked when they—ah, when there was work. That is they wasn't—ah, in the summertime they would work right along regular, but in the wintertime, when it come fall, why, then they wasn't any work…
Wanda: Until the snow came, eh?
Louie: ...until, until we got—ah—some snow equipment, removal equipment, ya know. And the, ah…
Wanda: You were telling me you had an old Caterpillar snow plow—way back in those times.
Louie: (Chuckles). Yeah, we got, we got a, a Caterpillar tractor with a snow plow on the front with a wing on each side—all hydraulic. That was, that was s'posed to be the...latest thing goin' then. We, we was pretty proud of it. As I said, it was all hydraulic and we, we...in the summertime we used the tractor to, to haul the grader and the hoe, so we could…we'd disconnect the—ah, hydraulic system and then back the tractor right out and we could use it anywheres. That's what we was doin' one spring, 'n’ I know we had it all ready to come out, and I don't know why, but...Roy Cole was a little anxious or somethin' and he poked his head around the, the door to look just as the operator started the motor and the hydraulic oil come out and hit him right square in the face and—(Laughter). Ayuh.
Wanda: A good story. You had some, some men that stayed with you, probably the—
Louie: All the way through.
Wanda: —many years. All the way through!
Louie: All the way through. Yeah. There was...there was Roy Cole, no relation, and Nelson Ross and—ah, Earl Jones…and then there's some other men that came on in the spring of the year, ya know, and worked during the summer and, and—ah, worked right straight through during the summer. And there was Howard Strickland and—ah, Les Fuller.
Wanda: Umhmm. 'Course you had a lot of mowing to do in the summer, probably, didn't ya?
Louie: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We did most of the...roadside mowing we did...well, I used to hire a farmer to mow what he could with his mowing machine, along the roads, you know, and then we'd come along and finish it up to the fenceline or the bank.
Wanda: With scythes?
Louie: With scythes, yeah. Yeah, and of course in the spring of, of the year, to begin with, we, we cleaned the ditches. We pulled all the stone and the mud and the dirt into the center of the road and—(Laughs)—then we spread it out and waited for it to dry and then we, we had a regular drag—a farmer's heavy-duty drag, spring tooth drag. We went over and broke those sods and stones ‘n’ things up, ya know, ‘n’ then we had more men working for a while in the spring. And after we done that, why, they raked the stone out to the side of the road. And then we, we'd come along with our trucks and they'd shovel those stone into the road—into, into the truck. Well years before, well, you'd see places along the road where they'd just pulled off from the road and dumped those stone right off of the side of the road, or they'd... they'd—ah, maybe some farmer wanted some in his barnyard or something like that. And—ah, well, that was all right to give them to him if he...only I thought, “My gosh, why not drive them, draw them a little farther and put them right in the road where they'd do some good altogether, instead of dumping them on the side of the road?” So that's—ah, what we did, we didn't dump any more on the side of the road after that.
Wanda: You filled in the soft places, you mean, and like that?
Louie: Yeah. Yeah. There was lots of…
Wanda: That makes sense, doesn't it?
Louie: …places where they would—'course we had to sometimes draw 'em quite a little ways, but—ah, they helped out, and the next year when it got spring, you know, and soft and bad…
Wanda: Then you, did you have a steamroller or any kind of roller?
Louie: Yes, we had a...we didn't use it, only on those—ah, 320A roads that we used to build.
Wanda: Oh, what were they?
Louie: Well, they were paid by the...we built 'em for the county. Each town, as a rule, built a mile of road, or if they could they built more, built, say, two miles or something like that, each summer. Well that, that gave more people more work, and of course it helped out the, the towns. It built a better road for the towns. We—what we did—we, we opened up the road and spread the dirt out each way, then we filled it in with field stone... We broke those field stone up, broke 'em up by hand. And—ah, then we—ah, we drew, the dirt that we scraped out of the center we generally used for the shoulder or so on, on each side. And then, we put... We'd draw some finer gravel on top of those field stone, you know, and roll 'em down good. And then we, we—ah, put a layer of crushed...ah, sometimes we had—ah, we had a crusher, too, that we crushed some of those stones for the top and—ah, we'd put those on, 'n’ then put on a coat of oil, and another, another coat of finer stone 'n’ had three, three—ah, three courses of stone on a...they were built, if the base was good—the, the big stone on the bottom—they, they made a good road. They lasted good. They, the asphalt held 'em together, tar, whatever they called it then.
Wanda: There's probably still some of those stretches of road around, aren't there?
Louie: Yeah. Yeah.
Wanda: So that's how a road is built.
Louie: (Chuckles). Ayuh.
Wanda: And that was funded by the state?
Louie: That, that was... they were mostly, mostly built by hand—(chuckles)—you might say.
Wanda: The money came from the state and the county?
Louie: Ayuh. Ayuh. They paid the town for the equipment that—ah, we used, and they also paid the labor.
Wanda: Well I'd say they got a pretty good bargain, wouldn't you?
Louie: Ayuh. Ayuh. It was a good...it was a good deal for the, for the towns, and it was a good deal for the county and state, too, as far as that goes.
Wanda: But it's no longer that way now, is it? We have our own—a separate highway department.
Louie: Oh, I think that went out in the—in '33 or ’34. We had started the Brooks road up here. We'd graded it and got about...on that road we was, for base we was usin' a gravel instead of the field stone because there, there wasn't field stone left enough around that we could get, ya know. And I think we were about...we had the base about half done on the Brooks road, when the county come along and took over themselves. And since then...well, since then there's been a, let's see—ah… Yeah, since then there's been a state project, the—ah, that was similar, was similar to the 320A project, and I still, I think they still have it now. That, that's called the Donovan Act or something like that. That... the—ah, towns can work that way, but it's—ah, the requirements are, are so much higher and they have to have—well, they have to have pretty good equipment 'n’...and, and you're under state supervision and—they are, I think, I think now the state pays the whole shot. The county, I don't think, enters into it.
Wanda: Yeah. But it's all taxpayer's money, isn't it?
Louie: (Chuckles). Ayuh.
Wanda: Well, let's see—ah—you were telling me about some of these men that stayed with you so long and—ah—
Louie: Oh yes, there was—
Wanda: —I was wondering if you had any stories to tell me about any of 'em.
Louie: Pardon?
Wanda: I was wondering if you had any stories to tell me—any things that you remember about working with a crew like that? You must have worked well together to stay that long together.
Louie: Well I don't know any, remember any specific... occasions or actions, particularly...more of 'em. They was these men that stayed with me so long. Well there's Roy Cole and Nelson Ross, 'n’ Earl Jones, 'n’ Clarence Shearer, Howard Strickland, Les Fuller 'n’ Lester Brooks 'n’... Seems as though there's another one that I...shouldn't forget. They were all, all good workers and would work regardless of whether I was there or whether I wasn't.
Wanda: You said something about the wages being 35 to 40 cents an hour way back then?
Louie: Ayuh. They was, they were 35 cents an hour and, and—ah, after a year or two we got it up to 40 cents. And then the Depression of '33 or '32 and '33 or something like that—ah, there was a delegation of farmers came to the town board and complained about their payin' so much to the labor, they couldn't hire anybody on the...to work on their farms.
Wanda: To do the hayin', eh?
Louie: We—ah, ah, we didn't lower the wages.
Wanda: Ah, you told me about working with a...not with a chain gang, not for a chain gang, but with a chain gang, remember?
Louie: Oh. Oh.
Wanda: That was before you were—
Louie: I don't know… This was a state project and...somethin' and they—ah, they brought a bunch of Negro convicts up from…somewheres in the South, and worked on the road, the old—whatcha call it? The old dug road between Chenango Forks and, and—ah, well, Itasca or Whitney Point—on that road. It run up along the Tioughnioga River.
Wanda: It was dug right out of the side of the mountain, eh?
Louie: They—ah, I worked there with a team of horses with a dump truck. They had a steam shovel and they'd load the…and they had some, they had a couple of trucks. The, they’d load the trucks and my wagon, and we'd drive out where they wanted the dirt and we'd dump it and the Negroes would—ah, would level it off, or maybe'd push it over the bank or widen it out or something and—ah, it was—ah... I don't remember where they, where they housed those Negroes at night. I, I don't seem to remember that. I don't know whether they had—a, a tent compound or not. I…
Wanda: Probably wasn't the best of quarters, anyway.
Louie: They—ah, I know the shovel operator, when he was swinging around with the bucket and he didn't pay any attention to whether there was a Negro in the way or not, he just kept right on goin', but I didn't see any Negro that got hit or anything, but—
Wanda: That's a terrible thing.
Louie: —it wasn't his fault that he didn't hit some of 'em. Yeah, that was, that was years before I was Superintendent.
Wanda: Yeah. You were—just a real young man then, huh?
Louie: Yeah. And I needed a little money and a little squanderin', spendin' money, and my father let me have the horses.
Wanda: So you went back to the farm.
Louie: Yeah.
Wanda: You've always, always kept a farm, have you, so that—
Louie: No, no, after I was, after I was elected I kept it one year 'n rented it, and then I traded it off for property in Castle Creek. And we lived, we lived there in Castle Creek until, until ’47. I bought this property here in...I don't know, ’44 or '45 or something like that, with the idea of building, ya know. In '47 we came down 'n’...and built it. Built the new house in…we built the new house in ’49 and we've been here…well... We haven't had, the wife and I only had one son. We had three children and only one survived.
Wanda: You were telling me that you went to school in Chenango Forks?
Louie: Yeah, I went to school at Chenango Forks.
Wanda: What was the old school like?
Louie: It was a, it was a union school. I don't…they don't have 'em anymore, I guess. They don't because they're all consolidated, but they...it was four rooms. They went from, went up to the eleventh grade, and if you wanted to graduate from high school you had to go to...some other school. Some went to Whitney's Point, some to Binghamton. My brother, I know, went to Binghamton.
Wanda: Well, you didn't—ah, have any special education that helped you out in this job as Highway Superintendent, did you? You just…
Louie: No. No. No. There was no, there was no, no school, only hard work and…
Wanda: Common sense, eh?
Louie: —and a little head work along with it, ayuh. No, it was, ah, I don't know of a superintendent that ever—ah, back then, anyway, that ever had any special construction knowledge.
Wanda: Yeah, but you had to know a lot about engines and machinery 'n’...
Louie: Well—ah, you say a lot. Yes...you had to have a lot of common sense 'n’ a little good judgement along with it.
Wanda: And good health, I would think, too. Long hard hours, right?
Louie: Ayuh. Long hard hours.
Wanda: You remember any special problems you had from storms? From snowstorms or washouts and rain and all that?
Louie: Well...just—ah—I don't remember any...real special washouts or anything. I know one year we had a terrible—it'd been hot a long time like it has this year, ya know?
Wanda: Yeah.
Louie: And I expected maybe we'd get a hard thundershower—gully-washers, as they call 'em—that washed, filled the ditches 'n’ washed the roads and filled the sluices, ya know. And, but that was just one of those things, it wasn't anything special. We had one one year, and in just about a week and ten days afterward, we'd just got cleaned up 'n’ we had the same thing right over again. That was a little bit discouraging.
Wanda: Ohhh. Then snow, you've probably had some, some snowstorms to get through, haven't you?
Louie: Oh yes, we always had snow, once in a while. I can remember one winter that—ah, I think it was '55 or '54, we were workin' over on Poplar Hill Road over there, cuttin' brush, widening it out and, and along in February, and you could work all day long without your jacket on, even. It was that...warm enough so if you were workin' a little you didn't get cold.
Wanda: You were tellin' me how you, when you first, or way back after you were Superintendent of Highways, you shoveled the roads out by hand and in layers or something?
Louie: Oh yes. See, where they…might be in a...a cut, or even in a...right in the open, where they'd drifted so deep that we'd have to shovel a layer off of the top and throw it over and then some men would stay up on top and the men down below would throw it up to them and they would throw it out. That was...that was back-breakin'...work.
Wanda: And you had a, a shovel. You said something about having a shovel that was made of, ah—
Louie: Yeah. It was a, there was a state project, ah—ah, “Get the Farmers Out of the Mud” was the, um…
Wanda: That was the actual slogan?
Louie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was the, that was the slogan. So we, we had been, of course, putting gravel in the road where we, when we could and where we could, but we had to shovel it on by hand and, and dump it and work it over again by hand and, and I convinced the Board that we could...do more if we didn't have to do so much of it by hand—if we had a, a power shovel, and we got one. It had a, ah...all it was, was a farm tractor on caterpillar treads and the—ah—circle that let it swing had a boom and a, and a bucket and cables and shivs and—ah, it was a 3/4 yard—no, no, a 1/4 yard bucket. Yeah. And we could load the trucks even, even with that, with…three times as quick as you could by shoveling it on by hand, you know. And…we got, we drew a lot of gravel that fall after that. I remember we started it right in that little, that little creek down on Front Street—ah, that comes down off of the Dorman Road and goes up in the hills there off from…
Wanda: Oh yes, Cooley's Falls Road?
Louie: Hmm?
Wanda: Cooley's Falls Road, you mean? Yeah, Dorman Road.
Louie: Dorman Road. Yeah. It comes down...years ago it used to be called the McKinney Hill Road. Yeah, Dorman Road.
Wanda: And you dug the gravel out of there?
Louie: Ayuh. Right down where the state highway is now. Ayeah.
Wanda: You never had to buy gravel, did you?
Louie: No. No. Not then. It wasn't...not many years before you had to.
Wanda: Yeah. Do you remember what Castle Creek was like when you first came over here? Has it changed very much?
Louie: Just about like it is now, only... only there was a good, good grocery store there then. They, what's the, what the fire station is now, was the school house. That was open at that time when we came over here 'n’ I think my boy went to school there the first...first year he went to school.
Wanda: 'Course there weren't so many gas stations around. I thought—that was one of the first gas stations, wasn't it, on Route 11, up there at Castle Creek school—or store?
Louie: Well there was two gas stations. There was one at, where the store is and there was one just down this way a little ways. And then there was another one…up above…well up above where the state...garage is now.
Wanda: Oh yes. Right in the woods there, right?
Louie: Hmm?
Wanda: Right along in the woods there?
Louie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Terrell. Terrells run it. And they'd—ah, Mrs. Terrell was an awful nice lady and, and a good cook, and she had a little restaurant there too, at one time.
Wanda: Well, gas stations were kinda friendly places in those days, weren't they?
Louie: Yeah.
Wanda: My dad had a country store with a gas station, at one time. Well, can you think of anything else you want to put on here? I hope you aren't getting tired.
Louie: Oh, probably after you're gone! (Laughter).
Wanda: Well if you...think of anything you want to add, you could call me up and we'll do it again.
Louie: OK. (Laughs).
Wanda: I want to thank you very much, Mr. Cole. You've been patient and good. Thank you.
",,,,"47:28 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Louie Cole",,,,1978-07-25,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Cole, Louie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Farmers--Interviews; Highway engineering; Chenango (N.Y.) -- Officials and employees; Castle Creek (N.Y.); Highway Superintendent; Chenango Forks School",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c4c8a54a7a461dcee287fc06a5afde13.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/85c0f95960cb92b88c85a05e832f8f81.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/46400df1d9b7e5e8351ffa2e670b5842.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/673f5922dba3e5a5ebe4d611f42d3821.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7e03530c5dfda1467c365bb25ca00548.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9ebfe3c7e6180e32db32c0fa1cefb848.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1ff673b6829ef953a5b680b03004f4bc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e2a65a8474a1dfaf45188f0acf4e96a2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/90b2babab397433c1d4096f92e3f2998.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/163399bef6507ecb8de7801cf98873ba.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/644511e22d87e57e90e1e6970b775732.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4f52732091c2c81b22f6d4643c37b4e2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/52feb5761188a85111d4bc6a831b14ec.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3d78bb9afd238355888bf343e6288f4b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/de308635abb68e334e56da940c766416.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/719487dd7d89396d9d28e82bbd58d505.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/05f31d951592db4ccf6479f943284720.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 534,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/534,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"34:06 Minutes ; 4:11 Minutes ; 14:48 Minutes ; 36:19 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Elodia de Hoyos Planck ",,"Planck, Elodia de Hoyos ; Politylo, Nettie ",,"audio/mp3 ","Planck, Elodia de Hoyos -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees - -Interviews; Cigar industry; Nearly New Shop; China Painting; Patronesses Ladies of Charity; Mexican culture","Elodia de Hoyos Planck talks about her birth in Mexico, arriving in the U.S. with her family and eventually arriving in Binghamton, NY. She discusses working in the cigar factory as a spotter, in the Endicott-Johnson Corporation as a stitcher, getting married and having three sons who became engineers. She speaks about her hobby of china painting, her volunteer work in the community, membership in the Patronesses Ladies of Charity and as an volunteer in this organization's store, the Nearly New Shop. She also explains customs, dress and food of the Mexican culture. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-08-14,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 50A ; Recording 50B ; Recording 50C ; Recording 50D ",,"Politylo, Nettie ","Planck, Elodia de Hoyos ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Elodia de Hoyos Planck
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Date of interview: 14 August 1978
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Elodia de Hoyos Planck of Glenwood Road, Binghamton, NY, on August 14 ,1978. Elodia, will you please tell me about life and experiences in the community?
Elodia: I came to the United States in 1931 with my parents, two brothers and sister and we came to San Antonio, Texas. We lived there three years and then a friend of my father's that lived in Endicott asked him to come here because he thought, that during the Depression, and he thought it would be better for us to be here and we, he sent a taxi, a limousine taxi after us. We started to work, my sister worked as a nurse's aide, I started to work in the cigar factory and my brother worked in the restaurant. My dad worked wherever he could, and of course, he worked for EJ for a while. I met my husband in 1933 and we got married in 1936, and since then I have been living here in Binghamton, for, since 1931. What would you like to, what else would you like to ask me, Nettie?
Nettie: At this point, I would like to ask you, you say you had worked in the cigar factory, what did you do there?
Elodia: I used to be spotter—they used to call them spotters. I used to spot the bad cigars and, then, throw them out and see that they were perfect.
Nettie: How did that procedure go about?
Elodia: They had boxes with trays on them, and each tray consisted of so many cigars, 24 cigars, and then I would see that every one was perfect and then they, of course, would send to different parts of the world, you know, United States and even out of the United States.
Nettie: I mean, what would you do if you saw something wasn't just right?
Elodia: I throw it away—we usually, they would sell them for as not perfect, imperfect.
Nettie: All you would have to do is to spot them if they are good or bad, right? You didn't actually have to fix the cigar?
Elodia: No, no.
Nettie: Just have to spot them.
Elodia: Just to spot them.
Nettie: Where was that located?
Elodia: That was on Emma Street where later on—ah—ah—Ansco took over because the cigar factory—ah—ah went out of business.
Nettie: What was the name of the cigar factory? Do you remember? I asked several people and they just cannot remember the name.
Elodia: I could find out for you from a friend, her father was a foreman there—I can't remember the name of it. I go back and look at my records.
Nettie: Did you work there very long?
Elodia: No, I think I worked there three years and then, of course, when they closed why then I went to work for EJ.
Nettie: I think most people did that, didn't they?
Elodia: Yes, that was a Godsend—EJ was a very good place to work for, at those times. I worked at different jobs—stitching and different jobs. Then let me see—I was going to tell you—I went to school in Endicott—night school for a year and after that I taught myself to read and write. My mother and dad lived in Binghamton, then, of course, when I got married and lived in Binghamton, since then.
Nettie: How many children did you have?
Elodia: I have three children. One is in Ann Arbor and he is an engineer, and then, I have one is in Mexico City who work for—sh—someone some company who is connected with United States they sell hospital things—he's like a market researcher and my youngest son, Ernest, is an engineer—he worked for Ansco. He was laid off and now works for Universal Instrument. He has two children, also and let's see I became involved after—I became involved after my children left home. I became involved with the Ladies Patronesses—Ladies of Charity is an organization that helps the community—especially the First Ward—and we do various things like—ah—we have a store, clothing store, that we help the poor with also we give good to the needy, and we do eye exam—not examinations—but it's the—ah—we go and test the children in schools for eye defects, among other things, that's we do we help—we are associated with Catholic Charities. I was president in 1972 and then I became involved with china painting and I do that as a hobby, also, sometimes I sell it in order to get more china. I enjoy that very much.
Nettie: Elodia, how did you get involved in this china painting?
Elodia: Well—friend of mine asked me if I would like that. There was a teacher in Hillcrest, Mrs. Gregory of Gregory Avenue and she is 87 years old. She is one of the best in the country. I took probably between four and five years with her and she is unable to paint now but she's one of the best.
Nettie: What is the procedure of your china painting? How do you go about this china painting?
Elodia: OK—china painting—I get the green china—it is not the green china—I get the china from the different factories—stores, rather out of town. First, I put my pattern on with a special pencil, then proceed with painting. Some patterns you have to fire them three or four times or more and china is getting very high price now—of course, gold is very expensive, so we are trying not to paint with gold—the way they used to do years ago. It is very intricate work and of course, we like to say that we are porcelain artists not china painters—we are porcelain artists because we do it—on porcelain. I go to seminars, you know, in different places like Syracuse or wherever they are near once a year to see other teachers paint and it is a very lost art which is coming back quite rapidly, which is quite interesting.
Nettie: Elodia, where was this started this art from England—the history about this?
Elodia: Well, as far as I remember it was started in England in 1500s—I think it was (if you could give me a minute I can look it up).
Nettie: No, we do not need to know exactly.
Elodia: All right—what they used to do—they used to be very secretive about it—they didn't want anyone to know about it and they started to do china painting mostly with decal and then they would gold it or paint shadows on it and they they would gold it—and then there was one vase that Louis XV had—even when he died it was worth like $2200 and that has been—since then, of course, there had been lot of painters that have come mostly from England and France, Germany, but we are rapidly becoming one of the first in this business—Americans, we are really going strong on that.
Nettie: Now, when you make your paintings, do you do this free hand or—?
Elodia: I can—most of the times I do—lot of times—sometimes if I want to copy some very old pattern—I can—put some, you know, from that pattern I want. I rather have my own patterns because then it is so much easier than if I am trying to copy it—copying is much harder than doing it yourself.
Nettie: When you do it yourself, it is more you, right, or it is original.
Elodia: Yes, yes—authentic. I am very interested in doing lamps. I'm trying to match old lamps, painting the globes. I have had very good success with making four of them and I find that some of the colors are very hard to copy—there isn't the color as they used to be—because some of those red colors require lot of gold in them so they are very hard to fire—if you fire them to a higher degree than your cone specifies you can have a disaster—they'll melt with even 50° over it—so it is very complicated when it comes to glass.
Nettie: When you are painting—are the paints made out of vegetables? Years ago they did—
Elodia: No, the paints are—isn't that funny I read it when I was studying—it's gotten away from me but they are in powder form—then we have a special oil that we mix it with then we paint with oil and turpentine along. Ah—let me see what I can tell you anything else about it—painting—
Nettie: Is this lady, Mrs. Gregory, originally from England?
Elodia: No, Mrs. Gregory was born here, right on Gregory Ave. They had a farm there—her and husband—and let me see—she started when she was 14 years old and she's 87 years old now—so, she painted up to about two years ago when her heart—she had a heart attack but she still paints. Every once in a while—she still paints and she took lessons from—ah—ah—Mrs.—again I have to look in my notes—anyhow this woman that she took lessons from went to NY and took lessons from Mrs. Provost, her name was, she took lessons from a woman in NY—she stayed a week and it cost her $500—at that time—which was about 65 years ago, something like that. When he came to Binghamton, Mrs. Gregory took two year lessons and she is—she is just an artist—a very gifted person and could draw very good without getting any education. The same teacher had her paint—you know—whole sets of dishes, painted a whole lot of sets—now she put patterns on two of my set of dishes. One is in—the boy in Mexico City has it—he had it—now it’s for 7 er 8 place setting and of course, platters sugar, creamer, etc. He had it appraised and they offered him $8000 in Mexico. He was so proud, he wanted to insure it and but he wanted to know just what it was worth and he insured it—they told they would gladly give him $8000. So I'm very proud of that. I have three sets myself—you know, of course my other son has a set that I did for him.
Nettie: Sounds interesting.
Elodia: It is—and of course it is very relaxing like some people relax with crochet and others with you know, knitting, you know and I relax with china painting.
Nettie: Elodia, since you came from Mexico it is always intriguing to me to ask something about the customs of Mexico.
Elodia: Well, let's see we have three—uh—three kinds of people—elite, middle class and poor. Even today, they still have the same customs and I know some foreigners, some people, think we are cruel because we had maids—but we always take care of the maids—my mother never had less than three maids—of course, at the time when we were there—why they were very cheap to have—like $20 a month plus room and board—but my mother always saw that they were taught to read and write and she always gave them a day off—she clothed them—she made clothes for her whenever she could or bought clothes for her—at those days most of them were done by hand—the sewing and that’s one of the customs—they are much harder to get now because they are going to factories—but the factories are taking advantage of them because knowing they are ignorant—you know—they take advantage of them and really they are much better off being a maid in people's houses. Now, my son has a maid—she made the mistake by having a child out of wedlock but my son built a little room for her with a shower and, you know, shower and bedroom—he takes care of the child—same time she is—maid in his home. So, you know, some of the poor are alleviated that way—now you know, people go to Mexico and they say, ""Oh, there is so much poverty,'' but it isn’t true because in a sense this government cannot instruct them or get through to them that they will help them if they need help. They'd rather beg than accept government help. Now in the past 20 years Mexico has progressed in education very well—the universities in Mexico are free—like universities—like the college here like SUNY and Broome—and they are free but naturally they have to still pay room and board but free tuition. Now—there still—especially in the small cities they're still ten years behind United States. Of course, we have imitated you in a lot ways because of course, your ways are better. I find Americans are very willing to help us—to help the Mexican people. One of the things—I admire about the Americans they are not selfish—they are very unselfish and well we have learned a lot from you and I think—I—we have a lot better relationships than we had years ago.
Customs—let's see we still have the elite—still marry with the high class of people—sometimes for convenience, not all time—I think they're changing too—where the girls couldn't go out without a chaperone, now they could go—alone—now and they're no more lenient towards that—but we still have a lot the customs we had before—like we still wear black if someone dies for two or three months according to relative—we are very close families—we always have uncles, aunts, cousins, second cousins, third cousins—we are very close together—we keep track of each other—usually when we have gatherings, we—it’s usually just the family—because it’s so big—because we always say, “oh well, it’s the third cousin—we have got to have him.”
Now let me see—Northern Mexico is very arid—very hot—the middle part which is Mexico City and up to the coast of Acapulco is very lush—then you have Yucatán and Degalt, also very arid—is very hot and lot of poverty—a lot of poverty in that region—they're trying to—you know—make life better for them—well, it takes years and years especially, the Indians, they still live in little huts, you cannot make them change because they think the hut since it is made with palm hedged roofs—why they think it is much cooler and they go through the same thing that their grandfather, their great grandfather taught them to do and they till the land with such primitive tools. You just can't change them—they just don't want to change—some do come to the city, they're miserable when they come to the city—people will say, ""Gee, look at those poor things”—they're not poor—they like to be themselves—this is the way they were taught by their parents—they just don't know any other way. If they have enough to eat and a roof over their heads they don't care for anything else.
Nettie: Elodia, tell me something about the social life.
Elodia: Of the government or of the people?
Nettie: The social life of the people.
Elodia: Well we have, of course, the fiestas like you have—like the 4th of July—this comes in which is 16th of September, there. We have fireworks, we have parades, we have almost the same things that you have. Our most important time is Christmas time, of course, Easter time too. They are two special events for us. They are, Christmastime 16th to 24th, we have a custom that we go from—different families get together and we go to Mass at 6 o'clock—we have special ceremonies and then after that we have a late supper—a 12 o'clock supper—like a 12 o’clock supper—that goes on until the 24th and on the 24th we have, of course, have a big feast like we have here. Now we have trees but before we had altars because it was hard to come by. It is very religious time. Even now they have about 80% are Catholics—there is quite a few Protestants now but predominant are Catholics. We have—in the part that I come from they have a little celebration 5th of May—it is the beginning of the crops—and all the Indians or the poor people there's a group of people, just like the Knight of Columbus, they get together, dress like the Indians used to, they have a Mass—in fact my mother donated like a little grotto to the out of town so they could have their feast there—and they still dance all those dances—they are colorful—this is only for the 5th of May and they bring their bread and some of the legumes, some of their crops to be blessed by the priests. All day long they have different dances—they have like a carnival atmosphere—you know, this is very important—they have mariachis which—a mariachi is a fellow—is group of young men or men who play different tunes of Mexico—usually they are primitive dances, you know, primitive dances—primitive music. They still are going on with all that.
Nettie: For social life—
Elodia: We still have dances at home or in halls, always with music. They still have serenades. They still serenade their girlfriend and if they are engaged why they bring three or four musicians and they sing under the window. Then of course, is is the custom the parents ask the young man and the musicians in for chocolate or something like that.
Nettie: It Is romantic! (Laughing).
Elodia: It's romantic—and it's always two or three o'clock in the morning because by then they had two or three drinks and are, of course, feeling gay and romantic and sing to them. Of course, we have the bullfights. Some people think it’s very cruel—but those bulls are trained just for that—they trained them—they bring them from Spain, sometimes—they train them to be very ferocious—a man has to know what he is doing in order to defend himself from the bull—of course, it is customary to kill the bull. The meat is always sent to the prisons which if there is another— (interruption). So anyhow the custom—oh—the meat goes to the jails—which is another thing another disgrace in Mexico—the jails are bad—but in each nation something has to be bad, that is one of the things that are bad in Mexico which has been in the papers lately, you know, how bad they are but I tell you they don't have the vandalism, murders that they have here—because when they say that they—shoot them if they find them in an act of vandalism or act—like abducting somebody—or stealing or killing somebody—they kill them on the spot, they don't have a trial for them—in this way America is very lenient. I'm very sorry, it is a very bad mistake—so, we have very bad conditions in the jails but believe me they think twice before they go to jail. Before, they, you know, commit something like when they started here to rebel, all those student started to rebel in Mexico City—also they wanted to do the same thing they did here. The President said, “OK, if you do that we'll start with cannons we will not fool around—we'll start fighting right away and they did—and they killed a few of the protestors and there never was another demonstration. It isn't that Mexico has a dictatorship—yes, they had quite a few presidents, bad presidents—that is the one of the reasons why we came here—the government was corrupt—my father got into politics—that's another story but they have had a very bad governmentship—how do you say—government and we have had ups and downs, past history revolutions and all that—what is better? To be strict with the people and show we have authority or let people get away with things?
Nettie: That's right.
Elodia: I may be wrong but now the politicians here are not any more corrupt than in other countries—in fact, I think that they are not as corrupted as in other countries. They are doing the best they can—I find that people demand too much from the politicians—they're human beings like we are—sure, they get big salaries but on the other hand look at the risk they—taking—they are our leaders, they should be able to make more money—as they are the leaders—they take a lot responsibility—oh well, so they find this politician that politician took a little money from this or that—well, maybe they don't get enough money to represent the people like the people want to represent them—like, for instance, it takes money to be dressed the way supposed to be dressed, to live in luxurious homes—they have to live in luxurious home—they are the representatives of United States. I do think they should be—the people that have beautiful homes so that other countries will say—well look—all right, I think they should be treated equally in some instances but they also are to be treated with respect because we are the people who elected them so, they should have a certain kind of aura towards them, you know, something like, not that they are better than we are but they do have a better position because that's the way we want them to be—they have to be. Is there anything else?
Nettie: Well, Elodia, I'm always interested in foods and recipes of Mexico.
Elodia: In the first place, the Indians taught us to use the maize—the corn that is the staple in Mexico—they would, the kernel of the corn, they would grind, now, years ago, they used to grind by hand in a stone made for that purpose with, sort like a rolling pin but made of stone. Now, of course they have machines that grind the corn and make into dough—that dough is made into a tortilla, like a pancake, and is cooked like a pancake and from the tortilla we make, we stuff them we call it a taco because, “let's call it a bite to eat""—the tortilla can be cut into 5 or 6 or 8 pieces—could be used as like a piece of bread to eat with a meal. Now the tortilla is very essential in Mexico. The scientists have found out that Mexicans have very good teeth because the corn when is eaten does not leave a residue that is left by bread—so, that is why they think the Mexicans have good teeth.
Now, beside the tortilla, like I said, we have chili which is very hot, we use them in sauces. We don't—the restaurants cook very spicy with very hot peppers but the people don't have that hot stuff—they make a sauce, of course, it is up to each individual to use it—now we have the tacos—tacos are fried, beans are fried, the meat is made into a like a stew—you put in tortilla and you then roll it—you call it a taco—also, we use that for an enchilada. The enchiladas have another procedure—we put them through with a sauce made of chili powder which is not hot—chili is made with dry peppers for that purpose and then sometime we use it as they are but it's ground to the powder—the tortillas pass through the sauce and then you put the fried onions with cheese, roll them and bake in the oven 10 minutes—you call them enchiladas. The tamales are a very long—intricate procedure—it takes a long time, it’s not complicated but takes a long time. The tamale is made into ah—right—the meat is cooked with garlic and spices and ground and then the dough is made with meat juice—broth—soup. You make it into a stiff dough and then you make it into a corn husk and then put your meat in the middle, roll it, and then you cook it—probably for one half hour because the meat has been cooked already. The masa, which is the dough, is cooked in about 20 minutes—which is called the tamale because it is cooked in the cornhusk—and it is a tradition which comes from years and years. We eat very little pastry. They do now, in Mexico City, you find the most famous bakeries in the world—they use a lot of pastries, but only at night. The Mexicans have a very good breakfast which consists of sausage, eggs, sometimes pork chops and even steak. Then the meal, main meal, between 2 and 3, they have a big meal first comes the soup, then comes rice—we fry our rice—then comes the meat, it’s either made into roasted charcoal or in the oven. After the meat comes the vegetable or the salad and we very seldom have pies or cakes—we have fruit piece for dessert, it’s plentiful there. This is 2 o'clock or 3 o'clock now at night when people come to visit you it is usually between 4 and 6 and the custom is to serve chocolate and little bit hojarasca—which is a cookie made very rich—that's what we offer them, you know, between 4-6—now the supper which we call dinner here is very light usually is a sweet roll and hot chocolate or milk or coffee—it is always 8-9 o'clock—a very light meal, of course, they have their meal at noon. That's it. The spices we use are entirely different than the Italian or Americans use. We use cilantro—which is cardamom seeds—no—I can't think of the name in English—we have cumin seeds—we use in rice or meats—we use a lot of almonds to cook with our meats which is cooked into a paste, thickened like meatballs or like in stew. The chili con carne which is so popular is not done as it is done here—probably it is Americanized. The way I was brought up I was cutting tiny little pieces of pork or beef, we fry that then of course, we cook the pinto beans which is cooked ahead of time and then when the meat is done we put the pinto beans along with chili powder, garlic & onions and then we simmer for a long time and that is our chili con carne, which is a little different than they make here. It's good here too, but I mean, but it has been changed some, but that was the original chili con carne. We use pork in our tamales—when we make our tamales—or we make like you would call a stew with green peppers and sauce of green peppers entirely—for pies and cakes there are few recipes, we use flan, quite a bit, which is like a custard only is a little bit sweeter, it’s almost like a custard, we have it at night, sometimes, when we do that.
We also make, here we go again, buñuelos—it's a very thin like a pancake—put one over our knees—put on knees—proceed to pull—until it becomes very, very thin—and we fry that out—sprinkle with sugar and cinnamon. This is the custom that we usually make them at Christmas because the weather is hot—now Christmas it is cooler so we make them that time of year so we call them buñuelos. What else could I tell you about Christmas? We take a roast beef—you know—you say, “what am I going to do with a roast beef?”—so you make it into a loaf, hash, or meat patties. Our meat patties or croquettes as you call it, we use them different, we take the leftover meat, grind it—then put into—eggs with peaks—beaten egg whites with a tiny bit of flour—then we fry and using leftovers we make a sauce with tomato, garlic and onion—put sauce on top of croquettes—(meat patties leftovers with)—we always have—most of our meals are with rice, meat and beans—even on the hottest day we have soup. The soup consists of a bone with meat, throw in whole carrots, a half cabbage, cut into quarters, pear, apple, tomato and onion. We don't use garlic on soup—soup of the day—sometime—we have corn soup and cream soups—but this is our popular one.
Nettie: Elodia, this sounds interesting—sounds like a cookbook. Is there anything else you want to add to this?
Elodia: No, unless you want to go into custom dress—
Nettie: That would be interesting to know.
Elodia: I'm, all right, making too many ahs—I've got to make my thoughts together. We, every state in Mexico has different custom—costume. The custom of the whole country, whole republic, is embroidered blouse which is white, very pretty embroidery—skirt is made of green—because the flag is green, white and red and we have an eagle in the middle of our flag—usually custom of the whole country—colors are exactly like the flag on we painted by hand or embroidered by beads and very colorful—as I say, each state has their own costume—towards the Yucatán Peninsula—they have entirely different like a muumuu—not too white—like a muumuu embroidered on top, then they have a skirt embroidered with white and then they have another with lace and that is the custom of Indians—they usually, even now, they dress all the time. Now—toward the Tampico—Veracruz—which is another port is near the Gulf—they have all white made of very tiny plants—and is in layers—one after another. We have folklorico—a group of dancers—dance of every state—it's different—when it comes to New York, if anyone hears about it should see it—it's beautiful, colorful being handed down from generation to generation—it's authentic—from the primitive stage to now.
The poor people of Indian people still have a custom to put their shawl around their shoulder and then cross it and they carry babies on their back. Now I can see the Americans with their carriages on their back—carriers, almost like that—child sleeps and is comfortable because next to mommy or when carried in her stomach when they're tiny—that's only the poor people. Naturally, rich people have maids to carry babies like that in a carriage. Now we are clothes conscious—now we might not have a beautiful furniture or the house elegantly furnished—but we are careful how we dress, for instance, like in the afternoon when we go to the plaza which is a circle, its middle made of concrete. The middle of plaza there is a band concert—always a band—since we have hot days, at night we go and listen—government pays for that. Gee, I have been getting away from everything, Nettie—I have told you so much and yet I didn't accomplish as much as I wanted to—my mind goes from one thing to another thing.
Nettie: You told me quite a few things. I understand you belong to a charity—sounds quite interesting.
Elodia: Patroness Ladies of Charity that is a group of ladies of charity that—uh—is an association of charity of ladies of the United States. It was formed in 1960 and became one of the 43 countries in the world to have its own association. We—the Patronesses are devoted to do good for the community—right here in Binghamton. We have a store on the corner of Jeanette and Clinton St. Anybody in need of clothing can come with a letter or note from either their priest, minister or social worker. Even though we are Catholics we serve everyone that comes or anyone that come and says, ""Look, I am in need of clothing,"" or, ""I'm in need of groceries—because either my husband is sick or is not working,” and we try to help all we can. We have—we also sell clothes and other articles—with the money that we acquire from sale we put back in to buy shoes for the needy children as they start school. Sometimes, we help people in need that have no money—we help them for one week or so until they can go to their own church or social services or go to Catholic Charities to be helped. We have done this quite often—we have a Sister Genevieve who works with us—she is tremendous help—she goes to houses when she finds out they are in need of something—sometimes we pay the electric bill so the electricity is not turned off—or the gas bill or other necessities or we buy their drugs because, maybe they haven't gone through Medicare and like that for them.
Nettie: I say you have an interesting project that you are in. What was the name of the store?
Elodia: Patroness Lady of Charity, Nearly New Shop, Clinton Street, 797-2033. If you have no way to come down, sometimes we can delegate someone to come after you and you can pick out clothes you need. They, also, take you home—it has to be—people who can't get there—we try not to emphasize this because so many people have a cousin, nephew or a niece who can bring them down. Now we have certain hours—we close Saturday in the summer. Other days, Tuesday and Thursday 10-3 o'clock. Now if by some reason or other you have to have clothing, as I say, you can call the shop and we'll send someone after you and we'll get you there, somehow.
Nettie: That's wonderful work you're doing for the people. Well, Elodia, I must say that was a wonderful interview. Thank you very much.
Elodia: You're very welcome.
",,,,"34:06 Minutes ; 4:11 Minutes ; 14:48 Minutes ; 36:19 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Elodia de Hoyos Planck",,,,"1978-08-14 ",,"Broome County Oral History Project","Planck, Elodia de Hoyos -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees - -Interviews; Cigar industry; Nearly New Shop; China Painting; Patronesses Ladies of Charity; Mexican culture",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6dd18b9b9885409aabbd4a60bf4ad01c.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3540b3f8ffde7fb5a8a9a4d1dfa455e0.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c840f093f93dd8fd2e9b9c78a58b555d.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2a0238e17a309891c1ce119e73da55d4.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9bda5c8790bedd4058f2321f7ce61b06.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dd957fb801426edfab25a6f22a4e9f2f.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/92dd3ed87444233e43a21cf2f44a1628.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8bd360e7fad4295f6cb08d445d2a2854.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1a172a768ecd1ef296c7b94f67e52544.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/432efc98575f0e00d909d94f3d416a76.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c523341a479c0ff5bffaeb39eda83d4.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e21bede48a4e6d9468a54f02a34ebe99.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f1a4eedc47d2ff28054527a2899430fb.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5fcde56db6a825d2e1ff34ad9becb1b7.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a7aa0b392f94ab4ea6e8bfa341279eea.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/356bce1180260150d51b4f75f545f4a2.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d9dbfb1966e24e18c5c0eb14a4433ccc.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6549e857e1e48d20444c3fcc2a7d3dbd.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f3c66749b6eb71220ca417d77edbff7b.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/004e470464382de9193b7b65b51d7afe.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/77ce0be934e333fcd32746eef9f39487.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/25d15c8b10b61ca5dc8a7fe030b5c646.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6509b745fea018d6f593207150ce3db8.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/137134ed55d700a93f9f06ef171f748a.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4d956c0161c37f66750e6f48cb63a05c.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/85d33821d20ae8651bb0036fde35ef0a.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/70a4d035ccc30f397276258c6bde9685.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 531,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/531,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"33:51 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Elsie Parsons ",,"Parsons, Elsie ; Dobandi, Susan",,"audio/mp3 ","Parsons, Elsie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; LeRayville (Pa.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Teachers -- Interviews; Funeral homes; Women -- Societies and clubs; Titus-Parsons Funeral Home","Elsie Parsons talks about her birth in LeRayville, PA and her move to Binghamton, NY at the age of 3. She received her education at Potsdam Normal School, and was a schoolteacher for a short time. She speaks about her husband's funeral business, Titus Parsons Funeral Home. She also mentions her memberships in several civic clubs.",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-08-21,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 47 ",,"Dobandi, Susan","Parsons, Elsie",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Elsie (Atwood) Parsons
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 21 August 1978
Susan: Mrs. Parsons, could we begin this interview by having you tell us where you were born and something about your early childhood, your parents and what they did?
Elsie: I was born in Le Raysville, Pennsylvania, and came to Binghamton at the age of three and at that time of course a IBM was International Time Recording where my father worked and my mother was a wife and homemaker. I had one sister.
I went to the public schools of Binghamton. I graduated from Binghamton Central High School and a my last year in high school I worked at Cornell Dibbles Funeral Home just answering telephone and helping as sort of a receptionist then I went to a Potsdam State Normal School. When I came back I was hired by Dr. Daniel J. Kelly whom we all loved in the 5 & 10 to be exact well I suppose that everything had been taken care of at the board meeting naturally but that was the first announcement before the letter came to tell me that I had been hired as a kindergarten teacher in the public schools.
I taught in Benjamin Franklin School and in later years I came over to teach in Horace Mann because the principal of Horace Mann School was the one I went to when I entered kindergarten and he asked Dr. Kelly if I might come and teach for him so my friends all said, “Oh no, they won't transfer you.” But somehow I found out they did so, I came over ‘cause a people thought I wouldn't want to leave a new building to come to an old building because that was before the new one was put up, Horace Mann, but a I enjoyed my life very much. I taught until—I taught half days after my first child came and then I taught a I had stopped teaching entirely when the boy came so that a I could stay home all the time and just be a housewife and help with the business here.
Susan: Do you recall how much you made when you first started teaching?
Elsie: I think it was $1,100 and I thought that was an awful lot of money and my parents did, really, today it doesn't sound like very much but a I think that's about what I got, that or $1200, somewhere around that neighborhood when I first started in but after three years of course I didn't marry until after the three years were up although I did meet Mr. Parsons before that time but I wanted to be sure that I had my permanent certificate for teaching so if I wanted to go back and teach and I did teach until the children came so I had quite a long career as a public school teacher in Binghamton but a my husband went in business in 1928.
Susan: ‘28. What did he do before he got into this business?
Elsie: A he worked for E-J before that.
Susan: Oh did he?
Elsie: Uh huh.
Susan: That's interesting.
Elsie: And in 1928 he went in business with a Mr. Titus and we had the Titus Parsons Funeral Home on the southside and then we bought—we moved over here to the westside of Main St. so that we were across the street at 86 Main for four or five years. Then we bought this house.
Susan: It's a beautiful home.
Elsie: Yes, J. Stewart Well owned it but he wouldn't sell. We wanted to buy it sooner but he lived here all alone with just one servant which wasn't enough to properly take care of a home and he just wasn't interested in selling. We had sent people to inquire of him but he said, “What would he do with the money if he did sell?” So, we couldn't buy the house next door which was the carriage house, the white house with the red blinds at that particular time, but my husband bought it later for a friend of ours who is single and wanted a place in this area so she could be close to us. Her father was a minister and she doesn't have any close relatives so we bought the house as soon as it was make use of to a nephew.
Susan: Can you recall some—some little things that you did when you were growing up that you did that was many years ago?
Elsie: Yes, I agree with you. I a, well skating was what I enjoyed the most, I think. Of course I did all the other things too. But I think skating and playing tennis were my favorites when we were in high school and ice skating course I did rollerskate.
Susan: What were some of the biggest changes that you saw in the community as you were growing up?
Elsie: Well you mean in the buildings or the business or what? I know when we moved to this funeral home and went in business here I think a great many people besides myself we did it in all due respect we used to call Monsignor ""Father"" McLean and I can see even today the gorgeous arrangement of flowers that he sent when we had our opening and he was always very nice to us. And we had a girl in every room when we had the opening to tell people about the room. We'd give them a little history of the house because of course it is a—a very beautiful building and that added, I think, a great deal to our opening and the girls who did it enjoyed it and a they were always very very nice to us. We enjoyed a lovely friendship between the sons and Father McLean of course that dates back a good many years which you can't remember I'm sure but a and—
I don't know, I think that I enjoyed even grade school as well as high school a lot more than people do today. It seems to me we had good times and we had more parties and things like that when we got together in groups and sororities and things like that—that we enjoyed it. Some of the youngsters today don't get quite the pleasure out of it that we did, at least it doesn't seem that way to me. They want a little extra to have what they call a good time from what people did when I was young.
Susan: How many children did you have?
Elsie: Two.
Susan: Two. Do you want to tell us about your daughter?
Elsie: Oh my daughter lives in California and her husband works for Farm Food Machines Co. He is a comptroller and she is a wife and homemaker and they have three lovely children. My son is single. He's a bachelor by choice and so I don't think he is going to give me any grandchildren, I don't know. He's in Denver, Colorado.
Susan: Where did your daughter study her painting?
Elsie: She studied in he local schools and then she went to college and took it up in a—oh I'm sorry—but she does do nice work, I think, I enjoy it very much.
Susan: Do want to go into your activities with the local clubs here in town?
Elsie: Well, I'm the past President of the Civic Club of Binghamton, an organization that of course was for many years ago and is for the interest of the community and of course I am also a past officer of Monday Club but of course Monday Club has a different object. It's more of a lecture club and I also belong to Zonta Club International and I'm active still in that and that is for businesswomen, of course, Zonta Club International, and I enjoy that very much. I belong to West Presbyterian Church and I'm active there still.
Susan: You’re active in the business, which we know with all these phones ringing.
Elsie: Yes, Yes I still am active in the business—stay active in that and I really enjoy it. If there is something you can do for people when they are going through three of the most difficult days of their—maybe first time they've met with death and it's very difficult to accept and if you can do something to help guide them and help them out a little bit over those three days, I think it's well worth while.
Susan: There has been a lot of talk about how old fashioned we are in the way we take care of our loved ones. Do you see any a improvement of that in the foreseeable future?
Elsie: Now I don't quite understand the work improvement—a you know at the time of death a one in the past has always wanted to have a funeral service and have the friends come and some people like to have their friends view the body—others like to have a closed casket, others like to have the casket open for the calling hours and closed for the funeral service which of course I think is the natural way to do things but a there is a change the younger people of today.
Susan: They have—they have been cutting the hours.
Elsie: That's right.
Susan: Which makes it easier on the family.
Elsie: Yes, it does make it easier on the family and I notice a considerable difference because we used to have at least three sessions of calling hours and now we have not more than two and a I think that if you have a notice in the Binghamton Press and the Binghamton Sun your friends always make it a point to find time to come at the time you stated in the paper. If they really are a good friend and they want to come they make it their business to get here whenever the family sets the time so that it is easier on a family to have only two hour sessions of calling hours rather than three or four but some people particularly, Armenians and Polish people still insist on about three or four.
Susan: The old fashioned way.
Elsie: Uh huh. But now some people have only one. A few people and a if there is sufficient notice in the Binghamton Press and the Sun I think that covers it very nicely for a family.
Susan: Let's get on to something else. Is there anything more that you would like to a—
Elsie: I haven't given it much thought a—I've told you where I've taught, of course I taught Sunday School too.
Susan: Are you concerned? Are you concerned for your grandchildren that there are so many articles written about “why Johnny can't read” and “what's wrong with our school system today?”
Elsie: I'm very concerned about that, yes, and I think it's going to be corrected. I think people are becoming aware of it but it has taken a long time for the general public to wake up that children have been pushed on from the second to the third, fourth, fifth and sixth grade and through high school without really properly covering the work that should be theirs to do during that period of time. I'm very concerned about it, yes.
Susan: And it is sad when we have so much to work with these days than we had when you were teaching school.
Elsie: Very true. Very true and there is more to cover too than there was when I was teaching a—a great deal more to cover and children should become aware of it in the early years of schooling. I formed the habit of doing things and doing them and earning their promotions—not having them just passed on which is really what has been happening and the general—I think we’re really just waking up to the fact, I think other than teachers it hasn't been very well recognized.
Susan: And really the teachers haven't had too much to say about what—
Elsie: That's very true, they haven't a they have been sort of promoting this let them go in the next grade.
Susan: So that people in years to come will know that a lot of us haven't been satisfied with the way things have been going bu we have to go along with—
Elsie: And on the college level it's too bad they are no longer held to cutting classes. It's just that they cut them there is nothing really serious happens about it. They just go when they feel like it, do as much work as they care to and sometimes even when they have four years of college they just go on for a year or two if dad and mother want to support them which is tragic really. It’s a, children should grow up to know that they're going to be responsible for themselves at a certain age. Take care of themselves that way.
Susan: Well, thank you Mrs. Parsons, it's been very nice talking with you.
Elsie: Well I've enjoyed talking with you. It's been a pleasure I assure you.
",,,,"33:51 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Elsie Parsons",,,,1978-08-21,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Parsons, Elsie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; LeRayville (Pa.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Teachers -- Interviews; Funeral homes; Women -- Societies and clubs; Titus-Parsons Funeral Home",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dd434617378aec7a42b8f390ec3f40e0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c6f80b4f9c589d5102c663ecda53ebea.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4e477db0e3f74d5a74a951e1b7205f5f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3360993d3794da44b83637f82b9d87ee.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4ebfc57674acd0825e7aa28f024650d5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3d4e08784d0f0e0ceff7a97763ba8eb7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b45f4077e2f3665258df7460620c29ee.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/14c425d81cd73a45c1a9613bab1b65d5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0a5eb097586b62426ede8e4c8ab5687d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e6e8c1b7c1c963551fc0563de84f47a3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8aa1b23d7d3bdd596d3f5c460a77d70a.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 504,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/504,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"16:43 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Ann Elwood ",,"Elwood, Ann ; Dobandi, Susan",,"audio/mp3 ","Elwood, Ann -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Clerks of court -- Interviews; Bridgeville (Del.); Franklin Forks (Pa.); New York (State). Legislature. Senate; Binghamton (N.Y.); Businesswomen -- Interviews; Albany (N.Y.); World War, 1939-1945 -- War work -- Red Cross; Women -- Societies and clubs; Political clubs; Lowell School of Business","Ann Elwood talks about her moves from Bridgeville, DE, to Franklin Forks, PA, and her final settlement in Binghamton, NY, in 1911. She attended the Lowell School of Business and worked in business before becoming an assistant journal clerk in the New York State Senate and working for 27 years. She also discusses living in Albany (NY) and her involvement in the Red Cross Motor Corps during World War II and several social and political clubs in the community.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",1978-09-08,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 18",,"Dobandi, Susan","Elwood, Ann",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mrs. Ann Elwood
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 8 September 1978
Susan: Mrs. Elwood, could we start this interview by having you tell us where you were born and any of your recollections of your early childhood and something about your parents?
Ann: I was born in Jamison, Pennsylvania, and I lived there until possibly I was, ah, five or six years of age, and my father was in ill health and was told that he must go to the Walter Reed Hospital so we moved from there to Bridgeville, Delaware, where he purchased a fruit farm. And that was, ah, operated by a couple that, ah, operate farms—ah, professional farmers—and we stayed there for three years when, ah, it was decided that he had surgery and he wished to move back to Binghamton where he'd be close to his family, as he was born in—ah, he was a Canadian and ah, and then he moved back to his father's and mother’s home in Franklin Forks, Pennsylvania, and we came back to Binghamton in April 1911, and he went in the hospital on April 2nd and had his surgery and passed away on June 25th of that year.
Now his business when he was living in Pennsylvania was a lumberman and he disposed of that at the time of moving south. What else? Oh, and I—I attended the Binghamton schools, and after graduation I went to Lowell School of Business and took a business course in stenography, and they placed me with Bradstreets at the time I finished, about the time I finished my course, and Bradstreets was a mercantile agency and from there I went with, ah, the insurance firm of Steel and Powell in the Press Building and operated an Elliott-Fisher bookkeeping machine and took over the credits in that office. And after operating—being taught the operation of the Elliott-Fisher bookkeeping machine, the company wanted me to, ah, go with them and make installation of machines where they sold them in various places, which I did. I installed—err, they installed the machine in the agriculture department in Ithaca at Cornell University and I taught the operator there, and also two firms in Elmira, an automobile concern and a big agriculture business and several other places. Then my mother didn't want me to be out of town so much, so I gave that up and came back and was employed in the County Clerk's office for six years, and I also did credit work in the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company for several years before I had the opportunity to go to this NY State Senate in Albany, being the first woman from Broome County to be an employee of the Senate, and that was in 1939 and I was there for 27 years.
Susan: Mrs. Elwood, could you tell us something of your duties as a journal clerk in the Senate?
Ann: I went to the NY State Senate in 1939 and l—ah, was given an opportunity to be chosen as a person to study and familiarize myself with the various departments to perform in case of an emergency and my, ah—the principal job that I had was assistant journal clerk. Now, the journal is composed of all the activities of the Senate from the time that the legislature convenes until it adjourns, every action and performance in the Senate Chamber is on record in the journal that pertains to the introduction and the complete procedure of each and every bill until it is passed or—or defeated, or doesn't come out of committee, so to speak. Now the—the importance of that office is to keep the journal for the Senate and it's compiled at the end of the session and is composed of many thousands of sheets. I had to edit the journal to see that all, ah, procedures were followed and that each bill that passed had the proper procedure and, ah, then the committees had to be referred to see that it was properly referred to the committees, and ah, was properly sent to the Governor for signature and then it was returned as a signed bill with a chapter number, and the chapter number had to be noted in the journal when it was signed by the Governor. The, ah—the journal clerk’s office also is responsible for the publication of all journal documents and all of the forms used, which would be over a hundred. They have to be controlled in the journal clerk’s office as to proper procedure and information and data on each form. All, ah—all nominations come from the Governor to the journal clerk’s office and are referred to the Finance Committee before going to the Senate for passage, and after passage they, ah, are signed and returned to the Secretary of State’s Office, but the governor has to submit all his nominations to us first. This, ah, procedure is, ah, very important and it applies only to the top officials of each and every department and those that the governor has the authority to appoint.
Susan: Mrs. Elwood, during this time, ah, do you want to tell us about you—you met Mr. Elwood and you were married?
Ann: Oh yes, I met Mr. Elwood. He was, ah—he was, ah, in World War I, and I met him and was married, and he, ah—he was a, a deputy sheriff and ah, also in fact I met him through our office. He was employed in Bradstreet when I was employed there. There is where I met him, and he passed away from a—a disease contracted during World War I. He passed away in 1941 and we had a, one daughter, Constance Elwood, who is now Mrs. Herbert J. Wilk, and ah—
Susan: Her husband is the physician?
Ann: Her husband is a surgeon and, ah, operating in the Binghamton hospitals, the Binghamton General Hospital and Lourdes and of course he does work at Wilson.
Susan: Mrs. Elwood, could you tell us now, ah, some of the interesting events that you attended or some of the important people that came into your life during this period?
Ann: Well I met many important people, all of whom I just can't recall now, but some of the events that I attended, and I think I got now my invitation because of, my position up here was, I was invited to two inaugural conventions at, ah, in Washington and, ah, two inaugural balls, I mean, in Washington, and ah, I was a guest at an Electoral College, which is a very rare occasion for an outsider, but they're held when the New York Electoral College is held in Albany in the Senate Chamber under the auspices of the Secretary of State, and I had a—
And when I was in Albany I also, was acted in the, ah, Red Cross in World War II. I was a member of the motor corps, and during my experiences there I made several convoys, two to Camp Dix, one conveying, ah, ten-ton trucks to Camp Dix and the other driving Jeeps, and we made two trips to Camp Devan—one conveying, ah, Packard Ambulances, and the other, Ford Ambulances, which was very interesting and something that we all enjoyed. You—you convey the vehicle to the camp and then a large bus meets you there and returns you to Albany. Ah, this work was very, ah, very interesting because it also took us to airports at night when secret airplanes were coming in with either injured soldiers or officers, transferring them from one place to another, and the Motor Corps was called on to respond with coffee and sandwiches and something for them to nourish their bodies, and ah, this was always a secret affair. We must never know only about five or ten minutes before we had to make a trip where we were going and what we were going to do, ah—
Susan: Mrs. Elwood, could you recall, ah, for us some of your memories of how Binghamton was in the early days?
Ann: Well, when I came here we used to have streetcars and we went to the park—to Ross Park, which was the most popular playground and place in Binghamton. Every Sunday they had a band concert there and the park was filled with people. Then we used to go to Ideal Park, it was another popular place, and during the summer we belonged to the Orange Circuit, Orange County Circuit of Races, and they had horse racing there each summer, which we attended and ah, the, ah—I know we used to go by streetcar down there, and I think it cost us a nickel, no more than a dime. I know to go all the way from Binghamton down to Endicott I think it was a nickel, and the price on our streetcars were a nickel and the—and now—and then we had the YMCA, which was a popular place for the men, and I remember that vividly because our Republican Headquarters were located for many years in the old Bennett Hotel, ah, then later known as the Hotel Bingham, which was right across the street—of course those places have been dismantled now and torn down and replaced by other types of business, ah—and the Arlington, we moved from the Bingham to, ah, the Arlington, and stayed there as long as they were on top and when they decided to dissolve, why, we moved out and that building was soon destroyed. I mean dismantled and, ah—it seems I have moved around and been in all the landmarks of Binghamton through one way or another and when I went to school we, ah—our school, for a two or three years while they were finishing high school, we went to, ah, the school building in the old police headquarters at the corner of Washington and Hawley Street, and then from there to the new Central High.
Susan: Mrs. Elwood, could we go on and have you tell us some of the clubs that you belong to?
Ann: Well, I belong to the Monday Afternoon Club and I'm an active member in the, ah, Zonta Club of Binghamton, of which we have now, I think, the first club in Binghamton, male or female club, that has an international officer, and we have the international president of the Zonta Club of Binghamton and we're honoring her on September 23rd, and that's ah, Evelyn Dewitt, and ah, I belong to the Republican Club, several Republican clubs, and ah, the American Legion Auxiliary. I'm a fifty-year member of the American Legion Auxiliary and also a member of the Eight and Forty and, ah, held all the offices in the Auxiliary American Legion, Post 80 Auxiliary, except the president, and I, ah, was unable to accept that because my mother had died and I had to stay home to take care of my daughter, ah—
Susan: Mrs. Elwood, could we go back and review, ah, the part of your life where you mention you had gone to, ah, two of the inaugural balls? Who were the Presidents at that time?
Ann: The President at that time was President Eisenhower—I went to his inaugural ball and also the one for Nixon, and while we're on the subject of presidential officials, I would like to say that it was my pleasure to meet Mr. Rockefeller previous to his being selected, selected as our candidate for Governor. He was chosen in the Senate while I was there as chairman of the Constitutional Convention Committee, and George Hinman brought him in during an intermission in my office so I could meet Mr. Rockefeller, and ah, I told him that I was very pleased because I—I read from the papers that he is going to be our next Governor and I also, and I did neglect to tell you that in November 1977 l was chosen as the Woman of the Year by the Status of Women Council in—in, ah, Binghamton.
Susan: That's fine. You certainly have been a very active lady in this community, Mrs. Elwood.
Ann: Oh! Thank you.
Susan: And it's been a pleasure talking with you. Thank you very much for the interview.
Ann: Well, I've enjoyed this very much.
",,,,"16:43 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Ann Elwood",,,,1978-09-08,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Elwood, Ann -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Clerks of court -- Interviews; Bridgeville (Del.); Franklin Forks (Pa.); New York (State). Legislature. Senate; Binghamton (N.Y.); Businesswomen -- Interviews; Albany (N.Y.); World War, 1939-1945 -- War work -- Red Cross; Women -- Societies and clubs; Political clubs; Lowell School of Business",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2bfb931f58abd53ef8bd33a55372ce62.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e3bb8386116e3fcc6d4616514595b67f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f263018fef20ec91e6f70e5b41963a3b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c74c90f0733c9ac4ee1e39a2a6628300.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9bc7714b8f60f0fcad805173ac6eedab.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/708b8d0abdccc4613ab403b82cdaf795.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2beb4fbbdfe8db7f5229e81a9a3e9800.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/730b560f1c907ab5dbd51bc4912c8d7c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/67f4a43f95bc3c11b047d85bfe80c28c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f201b9276f460e0b26f2130470879bc.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 525,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/525,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"0:35 Minutes ; 33:15 Minutes ; 16:07 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Edwin and Marion Link ",,"Link, Edwin A. (Edwin Albert), 1904-1981 ; Link, Marion ; Wood, Wanda",,"audio/mp3 ","Link, Edwin A. (Edwin Albert), 1904-1981 -- Interviews; Link, Marion -- Interview; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Cortland (N.Y.); Aeronautics; Airplanes; Air pilots -- Interviews; Lindbergh, Charles A. (Charles Augustus), 1902-1974; Earhart, Amelia, 1897-1937; Link Aviation; Cortland Airport; Billy Brock; Clarence Chamberlain","Edwin Link talks about pilots in Binghamton before and during the time when he learned to fly, flight instruction under Sidney Chaplin and Dick Bennet. He details the beginnings of instrument flying, his invention and development of the instrument-flight trainer, and the invention and use of the sky sign.. He talks about night flying, early years of aviation, the beginning of airlines in the 1920s, and the many airplanes he has flown over his lifetime. He also discusses his reasoning for initially basing himself at the Cortland Airport and recounts stories of male and female pilots who came to work in the area, including Billy Brock, Charles Lindbergh and Amelia Earhart.",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-09-18,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 41A ; Recording 41B ; Recording 41C ; Recording 41D",,"Wood, Wanda","Link, Edwin A. (Edwin Albert), 1904-1981 ; Link, Marion ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Edwin and Marion Link
Interviewed by: Wanda Wood
Date of interview: 18 September 1978
Wanda: This is Wanda Wood interviewing Mr. Edwin Link at 10 Avon Rd., Binghamton, NY. The date is the eighteenth of September, 1978. Mr. Link, we'd like to—a have you tell us some of your recollections of early aviation in Broome County, if you would.
Mr. Link: All right. I first started to fly down at the old Bennett's Field off DeForest St., which isn't a field anymore. And—a I soloed in 1926 and been flying ever since. There were previous flyers here in Binghamton that might been interesting to have on record, for instance Basil Rowe, Pan-American's first pilot, flew here of of Bennett Field years ago. Another very well-known pilot that's been in this vicinity and, and recently died in Waverly was Earl Southee. They were both ahead of me and—a then there was Dick Bennett, of course, as he was pretty well-known after those two.
Wanda: And he was the one the field was named for, right?
Mr. Link: Ahh—Dick Bennett—a probably gave me most of my instruction though I'd had some previous instruction in California by—a Sidney Chaplin, who was Charlie Chaplin's brother, back in—in 1919 and 1920, but I didn't complete it. I was just going to high school then. I didn't have enough money to continue, and besides my father forbade me to fly at that time. So…
Wanda: But that was your first experience in flying—was in California?
Mr. Link: Yes.
Wanda: Do you remember what sort of plane you learned in?
Mr. Link: Well my first plane that I flew in was the old Curtis Jenny. It was a World War I training plane and—a the second plane I was training in—I had to get it at various places and this was at Binghamton—was a Curtis Oriole. It was really a, a newly-designed Jenny. It was like it but really a new one to take place. It was designed new in 1919, that was our Curtis Oriole plane. I took some instruction in that in California also in 1919. Now what more can I say?
Wanda: Well it takes a lot of imagination to—a try to think what it was like when you started flying. What was it like when you actually got into a cockpit in a plane? What did it look like?
Mr. Link: Well it didn't look like much. There was only a tachometer in the cockpit. That was the only instrument we had. It tells the revolutions of the engine.
Mrs. Link: No compass?
Mr. Link: Ahh—we didn't have a compass in some of 'em. Compass was a new-fangled—a idea. But—a that—an air speed and a compass were usually added. But the original planes first, only had a, they had the engine instruments—tachometer, oil gauge, oil pressure and—a oil temperature and water temperature because they were a water-cooled airplane then. And that was a out all and they were all at that time stick-controlled, not with the little wheel like most of the planes use today.
Wanda: And your two foot controls...?
Mr. Link: What?
Wanda: ...your two foot pedals?
Mr. Link: Two foot pedals. That's all they used to have—or rudder bar, actually they weren't pedals then. They had just a stick across and you could put your feet on each end of that. We called it a rudder bar—so that was all there was in an airplane in those earliest days. And then—a later when some of the other instruments were invented they were added, but it came along 19—a 30 before the other instruments, or instrument flying had even a remote start, that is, flying without vision.
Mrs. Link: Well in 1930 you had to have, by that time, you had to have an altimeter and a compass.
Mr. Link: I had a turn and bank indicator and that was just invented about then, the turn and bank indicator.
Mrs. Link: When you equipped the first trainer…
Mr. Link: What?
Mrs. Link: When you equipped the first trainer it had those instruments in it.
Mr. Link: It had a... the first trainers had the essential instruments in of the day, which was the turn and bank indicator, the compass, the air speed and a rate of climb indicator. That was all of the instruments in the first… That was considered a well-equipped instrument flying airplane. And the first trainers had those instruments in it to teach them how to use them because there was quite a lot said in the day that you...didn't need instruments to fly. Most of those pilots died shortly. They said they could fly by the feel of the airplane better. As I say, most of them didn' live very long if they did that. As a matter of fact, before I invented the trainer a man out in Wright Field—this somewhat gave me some of the ideas to invent the trainer—a Major Ocker took a seat and put it on a stool that would revolve, and then he'd blindfold the people and twist them around in this seat a few times, then ask them which way they were turning. And they invariably said the wrong way. And that was one of the things that gave me the idea that you could make a whole airplane to train a pilot to do everything. He was merely demonstrating just what I repeated: that you couldn't tell where you were going by sight or feel. You had to have an instrument that told you where you were turning and whether you were flying straight or level and so forth, that we had no natural ability like a bird, to do so. And even birds haven't, it's been proved later, 'cause they sometimes fly right into a building and things by accident or at night when they scatter. So they don't have much either. That was the way the early flying was. And then, along in the thirties came in these instruments and—a people were beginning to learn how to use them, including myself, and then I thought that—a you could build a machine that would… a trainer that would teach you, rather than going out in the air which was expensive, and slow, and you had to have the weather to do it in—that you could learn most of it on the ground, which some…which most people wouldn't buy at that time. They just thought that was silly, but—a time has proved differently.
Wanda: It certainly has.
Mrs. Link: It might be interesting, Ed, if you'd tell about how flying was taught back when you learned to fly, and how much longer it took, and—a how much more difficult it was.
Mr. Link: Well it was taught, and of course it's still taught that way to a limited extent—but it's a very expensive way—is to get in a… Now they get into a small airplane with a pilot and—a try to fly the airplane…and fly it with the pilot until he—a takes it away from you for reasons of mistakes and so forth. And you can… They still don't know how to fly. And primary flying is learned that way. But there's very little flying, instrument flying, learned in the air nowadays, because you can't simulate the…some of the conditions of instrument flight which is done in bad weather and you've either gotta fly instruments or else. So that's why a trainer proved to be valuable—because you could fly anytime you wanted and the weather didn't have to be bad to get instrument training. It could be simulated in a trainer. That’s—a the main thing, in that I, of course, after we built the first trainer—which was built almost simultaneous to the time I was, had learned, after I'd learned to fly—'29, wasn't it? Or ’28-'29.
Mrs. Link: '29.
Mr. Link: And that was built at the old Endicott airport where I was flying—a commercially. Most of the money that I made flying, I used to help develop the trainer.
Mrs. Link: You built the first one down in the Link Piano Company on Water St.
Mr. Link: That was not an instrument-flying trainer.
Mrs. Link: Oh, you're talking about the instrument trainer.
Mr. Link: The first instrument, the first instrument-flying trainer we built in Endicott. The first primary-flight trainers were built in the old Link Piano Company factory on Water St., which has now been torn down.
Wanda: That's gone.
Mr. Link: It's interesting to note that the, that I've got one thing in common with IBM. Bundy Time Recorder Company started in the same factory that I started in—in the same building, which later turned out to be IBM, as you know.
Wanda: Well you both accomplished your purpose very well, didn't you?
Mr. Link: What?
Wanda: You both accomplished your purpose…
Mr. Link: Yeah. We were both, we both started in the same building anyway, which is interesting.
Mrs. Link: You know, it's the fiftieth anniversary next year of the Link instrument trainer and—a they will be celebrating next year.
Wanda: Good. Good. That's good to know. You had a sign, a plane that carried a sign for night flying, didn't you?
Mr. Link: Yes, I had several planes that—the main thing in the early thirties was to try to make a living to eat, because that was the time of the big crash of money and everything. So—a there wasn't any jobs of any other type and I was—the only thing I knew, other than piano and organ building which I'd learned in my father's factory, which was down there on Water St., was—a flying an airplane. So I—a used an airplane to earn a living with because that was one thing you could still—a sell, was rides in an airplane, what we called barnstorming in those days—go around to small towns in various places and fly over the town at about fifty feet and get everybody out. And then they'd come out to the field and then you'd sell 'em rides in the airplane. Most of 'em were…just cow pastures, ordinary cow pastures and—a…
Wanda: So you'd get your crowd that way and then…
Mr. Link: ...started that way, yes. Then the sign that Marion was speaking of—I thought there, there was coming along things that—a needed advertising. Advertising, there were still companies trying to sell products like Enna Jettick shoes, Dunn-McCarthy, and I sold them a…
Mrs. Link: Spaulding Bread and Utica Beer—Utica Club Beer—
Mr. Link: ...and so I constructed a sign that had—a what you'd call universal letters under the wings on an airplane. And I used a roll like a piano roll to—we'd call it a programmer nowadays, but we just called it a, a roll—that would form the different letters under the wings of the airplane and say, ""Drink Utica Club Beer,"" or, ""Enna Jettick Shoes are the most comfortable,"" and various things like that, short messages. Then I would fly it over town at night and earn better rates of pay than I could get riding a student around all the time. I put the students in the trainers and I took to the air, to teach them.
Mrs. Link: Well in those days they didn't have lighted airports and—a they had to put out these little pots along the runways that they put on areas of the road, you know, when there's a hole?
Mr. Link: Just open-flame pots, to mark it.
Mrs. Link: And that was all they had to take off and land.
Mr. Link: Well they were called cow pastures, practically, and you couldn't call Bennett Field more than a cow pasture. You couldn't call the old Endicott Airport—a, which is now built up completely with houses—previous to the field that they have there now—more than a, a cow pasture either. 'Course Broome County Airport wasn't built. Tri-Cities Airport wasn't built and Binghamton Airport—which is still in existence—is out in Chenango Bridge and that was actually a cow pasture. It belonged to a farmer by the name of Haskell.
Mrs. Link: Wanda took some flying lessons there, she said.
Mr. Link: Did you?
Wanda: Yes.
Mr. Link: Oh, from the Johnson brothers?
Wanda: The Johnson boys, yes.
Mr. Link: From the Johnson brothers, did you?
Wanda: Yes.
Mrs. Link: She said she lives just in back of Pete and Mildred Dougherty, out there.
Mr. Link: Oh. Oh. Well, we lived there, too, for a little while on the river bank, but our house floated away one time.
Wanda: Is that a fact? In the '35 flood, or the ’36?
Mrs. Link: Yes. Let's see...well we lived there in '31. That's the first year we were married and Ed was flying out of there. And—a, but the flood came after this, we weren't living there when the flood came.
Wanda: Oh, fortunate for you.
Mrs. Link: But it was a little cottage there on the Haskell farm that was on the river bank—lovely spot. And Ed had his—a, used to take up parachute jumpers there on that field and they'd put on the night shows.
Wanda: Well they had some marvelous air shows around here in that age, didn't, weren't there? Big—a…
Mrs. Link: They did a lot of things.
Mr. Link: Well, air shows were always an idea to make a little money flying, when you could get a crowd out, but Marion made more money selling hot dogs than I did flying airplanes…to the crowd.
Mrs. Link: That was when we were up in Cortland. Ed was renting the Cortland airport, after they closed the Endicott one.
Wanda: Well there were a number of small airfields around here, weren't there? Wasn't there one at Conklin when... people first started really getting—
Mr. Link: Oh, they were, they were, you couldn't call them an airport. They were really just cow pastures that they chased the cows off from.
Mrs. Link: Little strips, landing strips.
Mr. Link: But—a they were used as airports. We called them an airport.
Wanda: I suppose any place that you could sell gas from you could use.
Mr. Link: Yeah. Yeah, it was just a question of having it big enough to take off from. Those old airplanes didn't need very much room because there weren't airports. Aircraft were made to take off in short, small spaces. And of course they wouldn't go very fast either. If you had an airplane that went…80 or 90 mile an hour, that was quite a fast airplane.
Wanda: Well it must have been interesting taking cross-country flights in those times, too—when you first started out.
Mr. Link: Well there wasn't very much cross-country done for passenger work. There was a—start of the first airline in Binghamton was called the Martz Airline and they were, they started, it was by the Martz Bus people that started it. And they were flying from Bufflo to New York in an eight passenger airplane. And—a they were really the first airline there in New York. Mrs. Link: Did they have to have intermediate stops? Did they stop here?
Mr. Link: Oh yeah, they stopped at Elmira, Corning, and…
Mrs. Link: I don't remember that, even.
Mr. Link: Oh—it was before your day, I guess.
Mrs. Link: Oh—they really had an airline going that far back?
Mr. Link: Yeah...it was ticked as an airline.
Mrs. Link: That would have been in the twenties.
Wanda: Do you remember what kind of planes they were?
Mr. Link: Well, they were Bellanca, the same type that—a Clarence Chamberlain and Ruth Elder tried to fly across the ocean in. They were—when they didn't have…full of gasoline, you could carry eight passengers for a couple hundred miles before you had to get gas again.
Wanda: No overnight flights, I don't suppose, either.
Mr. Link: Oh no. No night flying at all 'cause there were no lighted fields. And then the government, to help these—there were a number of 'em started all over the United States—to help them find their way at night, to start at night, put in a system of beacon lights in between airports. So that's all you had to guide you from one airport or another, was a beacon light every twenty miles. If you couldn't see 'em you couldn't get there. So it was all...visual flying…with these beacon lights. So that's early aviation in Broome County.
Wanda: What—a, what about this—a Endicott Aero Club?
Mr. Link: Well it was the…
Wanda: Was that the first such thing around here?
Mr. Link: It was the first aero club formed in Broome County, which I was a member of and—a it was just a group of people that were interested in flying and probably a good share of the Aero Club was made up of my students that were...and it was just like any other club. It was because they were interested in flying. They'd meet once a month or something like that—what we would call “hangar fly.” They would talk things over, their flying and so forth.
Wanda: And that field was across from where the Enjoie Country Club was?
Mr. Link: What?
Wanda: Was that across from where Enjoie Country Club is now? Somewhere down in there?
Mr. Link: Well the original Endicott Airport was right across from the golf club there. It's built up now with houses. It was along the railroad tracks there. That was the...there were only two fields. The first two fields was that field and the Bennett Airport field—a down by DeForest St. Then a man by the name of Rowe started the, what he called the Binghamton Airport, and that was at Chenango Bridge. And later—while I flew out of all of them extensively, 'cause we were right around here for one reason or the other—later I based at the Binghamton Airport and then after that I based at the Endicott Airport, the original one, not the present one, and continued the work of developing the trainer there. I'd use my students, sorta, as guinea pigs on the trainer.
Wanda: Was that part of your flying—a lesson?
Mr. Link: What?
Wanda: Was the use of the trainer part of your course in flying?
Mr. Link: Yes. Yes. Actually one of the reasons I was so interested in teaching flying was because I felt that I, it was a good proving ground more to learn how to build a trainer, than teach, because I could teach them on the ground and then I took 'em up in the air and found out what they didn't learn and then maybe improve the trainer to take its place, make it better.
Wanda: Iron out the problems that way.
Mr. Link. Uh huh.
Mrs. Link: Well Ed had the whole school set-up and the whole course, including solo, for $85.
Wanda: Amazing!
Mrs. Link: And it was $35 for the ground school and the trainer.
Mr. Link: And $50…
Mrs. Link: And then when they had suffcient training time and he felt they were qualified to go in the air, then the other fifty dollars applied to the air time until they soloed. And it didn't make any difference how many hours it took them. $85 covered the whole thing, through solo.
Mr. Link: I'd guarantee to teach them to fly for $85 then. If they didn't, I'd refund their money. That's the deal I put on.
Mrs. Link: And he had one class a week at night in, in ground school, and they had to pass that before they qualified to go in the air.
Mr. Link: And I used the trainer in the class to, to find out. The reason I didn't have very many refunds is, I discovered when they cou—that they weren't able to fly in the trainer, so I'd kick them out of the school, I'd flunk 'em out. So if I hadn't…
Mrs. Link: Well, they were pretty, most of them qualified, though. It took a different…
Mr. Link: Well most any normal person can qualify to fly. It isn't…
Mrs. Link: —it might have taken them a longer time.
Mr. Link: —walking or riding a bicycle or driving an automobile.
Wanda: I think that's true.
Mr. Link: Sometimes we'd have—a people that are a little mixed up and they can't drive a car either. So, if they drove a car pretty well they could learn to fly an airplane.
Wanda: That's a wise way to do it. Umm... What else do we have down here?
Mr. Link: Is your recording machine working all right?
Wanda: Seems to be going.
Mr. Link: Let's don't do a lot of talking if it isn't.
Wanda: No. It's doing fine. I just wondered if there's anything you could think of that I didn't have down here on the, on the list.
Mr. Link: Well, let's see what you have here.
Wanda: Mrs. Link, you were part of this, all through the career—his flying career?
Mrs. Link: Well actually I met Edwin, I came to Binghamton in 1929. That was the year that the trainer was first completed. And—a, and I met him soon after that. We were married in 1931, and as he said, it was during the Depression years, so we, I worked with him all through those years. And I took care of the office work, and the typing and the, all the background things. [Telephone rings.] Excuse me.
Mr. Link: She learned to fly also.
Wanda: And she learned to fly?
Mr. Link: Yes. At that time, she learned to fly up there.
Wanda: She mentioned that she does the, the navigating, or did the navigating quite often for you.
Mr. Link: Yes. 'Course we didn't have regular air maps as they have—then. We just had an ordinary map, where now they have air maps, you know.
Wanda: You mean you, when you first started, you used like a road map?
Mr. Link: That's all. Yeah. [He is called to the telephone.] Trainer I mentioned is the Jenny. That's the JN-4. That was the World War I training plane. And then I flew a Sikorsky wing Jenny, which Igor Sikorsky—the inventor of the helicopter—decided that to make a training plane he could put a more modern wing on the, on the airplane. And so I flew that some. And then I flew OX-4 Waco, which was a biplane of early days. And then I flew the OX-10 Waco, which was a newer one that was brought out in about '35, considered a very wonderful airplane. It was…quite a laugh when you think of it now, but it was a biplane. And then I bought the Number'Cessna, the first Cessna that Cessna ever built that was eligible, that he could sell. He'd built a...couple of haywire models before, but this was the first one that was ever built that he, that would really...was engineered through. Number 1.
Mrs. Link: I said I thought it was one of the very first cabin-type monoplanes.
Mr. Link: Cantilever?
Mrs. Link: Ca—cabin-type.
Mr. Link: It wasn't the first, no.
Mrs. Link: One of the first then.
Mr. Link: One of the early, first.
Mrs. Link: And a monoplane.
Mr. Link: But it was Number One Cessna that—a flew, other than, you might say he built some rough, crude models of airplanes before that, but this was the first one that was really—of his airplanes—that was a complete airplane. And—a of course the Cessna company has been a very successful company and they've built thousands and thousands of airplanes since then. I went out in Wichita with Dick Bennett, who was flying here at Bennett Field, and we flew it back to Binghamton.
Wanda: Oh...that must have been an adventure.
Mr. Link: That was quite a long trip in those days. And—a then I had the OX—Travel—the OX is the old war-type motor that they used at that time mostly—Travelaire, and then later I got a Sieman's Halske, which was a German motor. We didn't build a suitable motor in this country at that time.
Wanda: What was the name of that?
Mr. Link: Sieman's Halske, it's the German electric…
Mrs. Link: H-a-l-s-k-e, S-i-e-m-a-n.
Mr. Link: Well there were no small engines built in this country at that time for us, suitable for us.
Wanda: Is that a fact?
Mr. Link: So we had, my Number'Cessna had an Anzani, which was a French engine, in it. And the OX5, it was an American-built engine, but it was built during the war, and it was not a modern engine as of...that day.
Mrs. Link: You said, when you were talking about the OX10 and you said 1935, you meant 1925, didn't you? Didn't you say there were two OXes?
Mr. Link: Well the Waco-9, OX5 engine, Waco-9 was built in about '25. And then afterwards Waco brought out a later model, which they called the OX10.
Mrs. Link: Mmm, but that was in the '20's, not in the '30's, wasn't it?
Mr. Link: In the late '20's, that was, yes.
Wanda: Well, how about this old Ford Tri-motor that you had?
Mr. Link: Then I had various other—I can show you a picture of it back here.
Mrs. Link: You had an Eaglet and you had a Curtis Pusher.
Mr. Link: Had—a various other planes, all kinds of planes in between.
Wanda: That Curtis Pusher, was it open, open cockpit?
Mr. Link: That was what they called the Curtis Jr.
Mrs. Link: Yes.
Mr. Link: Wacos, Travelaires—
Mrs. Link: —Stinsons.
Mr. Link: Swallows, Stinsons. Those were all early airplanes that I owned at one time and flew or—owned several because I was running a flying service then, and a school and I had—a more than one airplane.
Wanda: Now this Tin Goose that you owned, it, what was that used for? Passengers, mail?
Mr. Link: Passengers, yes and then I put a sky sign underneath it.
Wanda: Oh, that was one of 'em.
Mr. Link: One of 'em that I put the sign under. I'm trying to [leafing through a book on the Johnson Flying Service] Johnson book—82, I guess it is. I sold it to the Johnson Flying Service, that's how I happen to be looking up one, and then somebody got a picture of it in…
Wanda: And it's still being flown?
Mr. Link: So far as I know it's still being flown. The account of the Johnson Flying Service is here in this book.
Wanda: Must have quite a few hours on it. Well, this was one of the first…
Mr. Link: Here it is right here.
Wanda: ...passenger planes as such, wasn't it? Oh, my. [looking at the photo in the book]
Mrs. Link: Yes, for its size. The Tri-motor was a very unusual airplane.
Mr. Link: Afterwards I sold it to the Johnson Flying Service. I carried thousands of passengers in that plane.
Wanda: And where did you…
Mr. Link: It carried eighteen people, if you wanted it—sixteen to eighteen. We could crib a little bit and carry eighteen.
Wanda: Well, where did you fly that, out of Binghamton?
Mr. Link: Out of Binghamton, yes. And then I flew it, I barnstormed it around the country, too, taking it… They were a very high performance airplane. We call them STOL airplanes now, an airplane of that type, but—short take-off and landing airplane. They were sort of redesigned then.
Mrs. Link: And people got a real thrill out of flying in one of those big tri-motors.
Mr. Link: That was the biggest airplane of its day, the—a Tri-motor Ford. That was considered a huge airplane. It was an all metal airplane, too, one of the first.
Wanda: Oh, it was?
Mr. Link: Yes, one of the first.
Wanda: Did you have a regular route that you took passengers on?
Mr. Link: No, I didn't carry passengers then. Later I, because…
Mrs. Link: You had a pilot, too, that did a lot of the flying.
Mr. Link: I had a pilot working for me then. I had a whole flying service, too. I had four or five airplanes, including the Tri-motor Ford. Then I had mechanics working for me rebuilding aircraft and keeping my airplane up, or our airplanes up. I probably had as many as ten or twelve people, total, out in, in—a…that was at Tri-Cities Airport.
Wanda: Oh yes.
Mr. Link: The building's still there that—a I used.
Mrs. Link: That was after Cortland, that was after Cortland, wasn't it?
Wanda: You operated out of Cortland for quite a while, didn't you, too?
Mr. Link: Yeah, well they had, I was in at the Tri-Cities first. It wasn't Tri-Cities called then. It was called Endicott Airport. In a little wooden building, and that's the place where the houses are all built up now. And then because Cortland built a better airport and they had a, a hangar that you could even put a Tri-Ci, or a Tri-motor Ford in, I went there because I needed the hangar and I didn't have the money to build one. I built—
Mrs. Link: Oh, Edwin, remember the... that was when George F. decided he didn't want an airport there any longer, in Endicott.
Mr. Link: Well, we…
Mrs. Link: That's a good story for these Binghamton records.
Mr. Link: Well, what—we were flying there and George F. didn't believe in flying.
Wanda: Is that a fact!
Mr. Link: And George F. was—word was law around here at the time. But—a Charlie Johnson and—a—
Mrs. Link: George W.
Mr. Link: —George W. Johnson both liked to fly and they would—a usually sneak down in the, to the airport in the morning and fly with me. They were always good for an airplane ride and I was, I needed the money and they'd take a flight with me. And then George F. heard about this and he says, ""You're not, my sons aren't going to fly and you're not going to fly out of Endicott—our field. I'm going to close it down."" And I went to see Mr. Johnson to, I said, ""Well, one of the difficulties is I've got about ten or twelve men working out there and if you close the field down it puts me out of business and it puts about ten or twelve people out of business."" And I said, ""There is a possibility I could move to Cortland but,” I said, “that's going to cost me—a some money, five or six hundred dollars that I don't have and can't afford to bear it.” He says, ""How much is it gonna cost you?"" And I said, ""Five hundred dollars."" And he sat down and wrote me a check and gave me five hundred dollars to move.
Wanda: Oh, that's rare!
Mrs. Link: So then in the years—
Mr. Link: So I went to Cortland.
Mrs. Link: In the intervening years while he was in Cortland, then the Tri-Cities Airport got its start, because the other flying that was occurring in this area had to have a place to go, too. And—a so they finally started the other airport.
Wanda: Well, but he didn't actually close the field, did he?
Mrs. Link: Yes.
Wanda: He really did.
Mr. Link: Yes he did—it's never been flown off since. Later they built the Tri-Cities, the village built the Tri-Cities Airport, but the field originally was his...property.
Wanda: Oh, I see.
Mr. Link: It was right alongside of the road across from the golf club. Oh yes, he closed the field and it's never opened, it's always been closed. But then later, they built the field—a the Tri-Cities Airport which is there now, but the original field—
Wanda: Well, it's probably just as well, this would have been…
Mr. Link: —but the original field, usually Chambers of Commerce pay people to come to town, but this, this time I was paid to get out of town. And I took most of my employees with me.
Mrs. Link: Well in Cortland, in Cortland they got a real start for the—a trainer, with the Army and all. And then when he came back here, the airport had been built down there at Tri-Cities, so he had a place to come to. And—a then he started manufacturing the trainer here because the war years were about to start, you know, and there was a lot of interest in training, training airplanes at that time. But not with the United States so much. It started in Japan and in Russia and in other outside countries. And it wasn't until after we got back here and settled on Gaines St. that they—
Mr. Link: Well the first six…
Mrs. Link: —started to have an interest in—a…
Wanda: That's where the first factory was for the trainer?
Mrs. Link: Mmm, Gaines St.
Wanda: Gaines St. You had a number of moves, too, didn't you?
Mrs. Link: Mmhmm.
Wanda: As the business expanded?
Mr. Link: Yes. And of course, we kept growing and we outgrew our buildings almost before we could move in.
Mrs. Link: There while we were on Gaines St., that flood of—was that 1936? I guess it was.
Wanda: The big one? Yes.
Mrs. Link: Yeah, that wiped us out there again.
Mr. Link: And fire, with it.
Mrs. Link: And what?
Mr. Link: And a fire occurred in it. That whole block burned up there.
Mrs. Link: So then we moved over to—a, what's the name of that—a?
Mr. Link: Montgomery St.
Mrs. Link: Montgomery St. Over there on, in back of the highway.
Mr. Link: And that was a big building for us then, but we outgrew that in a short time. Then we went up to Hillcrest, which was, had been the old Larrabee-Deyo Truck place, originally built by Nestle's during the war. Then Larrabee-Deyo took over the building, and then later we took it over and we still own it. We still build trainers there. But we have another factory, of course, in—a, up at—a
Mrs. Link: Conklin area.
Mr. Link: And another one in England, too.
Wanda: Mrs. Link said—a, while you were out, that you might have something to say about some of the old pilots that came around here, a—landed around in these airports and that you knew.
Mr. Link: Well, of course I being the principal aviator around this area at the time, any new people that came to—a town, I would meet and all, and some of them were well-known people of the day. Clarence Chamberlain was one of the first to fly the Atlantic; Billy Brock who was the first one to fly around the world in a land plane; and—a I also met Lindbergh at that time, when he landed down here in Choconut. And there were numerous other of those.
Wanda: He was forced down, wasn't he?
Mr. Link: What?
Wanda: He was forced down?
Mr. Link: Yeah—bad weather. He landed in a field down here, like we always did in those days. And he couldn't get his airplane started the next morning to get out, he and Major Lanphier. So I flew down with Dick Bennett to help him get it started, which we did. They got started eventually and left. There's a picture of, of that was in the paper with Lindbergh and myself.
Wanda: Yes.
Mr. Link: There’s also one over in the gallery of—a—
Mrs. Link: Scotch ‘n Sirloin.
Mr. Link: Scotch ‘n Sirloin, downstairs there they’ve got one someplace.
Mrs. Link: I also mentioned the women pilots, Ruth Elder and Amelia Earhart.
Mr. Link: Ruth Law was one of, was one of the first pilots here, and she came here before I was flying. And it must have been... oh, I can’t say, around 19—a ‘16, ‘18, and landed out here on what was Kilmer’s place there, then, the horse-training track. And she was one of the first pilots to—a ever fly out of Binghamton. [Tape'ends.]
[Tape 2]
Mr. Link: They put up a prize for the first airplane to fly from New York to Chicago, or Chicago to New York, I forget which way, and she flew an old Curtis Pusher there, where you sat out in front. There wasn’t any cockpit around it, but she and Lincoln Beachey were the first two pilots—Lincoln Beachey was the first one I know about. A—Ruth Law would be the second and then after that came Basil Rowe and those that I’ve ment—already mentioned, Earl Southee, you know. There was also Catherine Stinson. She landed someplace out in Chenango, not Chenango Bridge, but Hillcrest. And she cracked up three times tryin’ to, or while she was here—was here about two months rebuilding the airplane and then she’d crack it up again.
Wanda: Typical woman driver, right?
Mr. Link: Well it was the airplane’s fault, I think. She was pretty good to fly it.
Mrs. Link: What about Amelia Earhart? You came up from Washington, she came up with you, didn’t she?
Mr. Link: Yes. Amelia Earhart was just, recently had learned to fly and she was, wanted to learn to fly instruments. And I had one of the early instrument-equipped planes. I was down in Washington and some way or other I got connected, I don’t know, and she flew from…
Mrs. Link: I was thinking that it was—a, that it was Captain Weems. That she was down there getting some navigation instruction.
Mr. Link: No, that was another woman. I don’t remember just how I got connected there, but I was flying from Washington to New York City and she wanted to go up, and I said, “Well, come ahead and get in and I'll show you what l know about instrument pilots and instrument planes, what you need.” And so she did. And then she went out later, to Paul Mantz out on the west coast who—in the meantime these trainers were taking hold and people were buying trainers—and took instrument flying time to fly the instruments, from Paul Mantz in a Link trainer, to start with.
Wanda: Oh. So she originally had her instrument training from the…
Mr. Link: Well, I didn't, I couldn't exactly say I taught her anything about instrument flying, but I did show her how it was done.
Wanda: Yeah. What—a, what was she like?
Mr. Link: She was a very nice person. I was well-impressed with her. She was one of the most retiring of the women aviators. Others that came along afterwards, they were somewhat—a—
Mrs. Link: Careful.
Mr. Link: —noisier and so forth. Like there was this woman that…
Mrs. Link: Never mind.
Mr. Link: OK. Let's get off the women pilots. But I didn't have too much respect for most women pilots, at the time.
Wanda: Well, they were…
Mr. Link: But I did Amelia Earhart. She was a very nice woman, very modest, very quiet and very able.
Wanda: I always got the impression that she really loved flying.
Mr. Link: And she really loved flying, yeah.
Wanda: What was it fascinated you about flying? Do you remember your first incident with an airplane? Do you remember the first time you saw one, or…
Mr. Link: Well the first time I flew was out in California. I was out there—a and I flew and then started taking lessons with Sidney Chaplin, who was Charlie Chaplin's brother. Then I couldn't continue that because I didn't have money to and my family stopped me, when they heard about it, but I—a always enjoyed flying. I felt there was a future in it.
Wanda: And you were right.
Mr. Link: At that time there were no airlines, no—hardly anything for flying schools except something like Charlie [sic] Chaplin. He established it out there where the Ambassador Hotel is now, in California.
Wanda: Is that right?
Mr. Link: And—a the movie actors and actresses had more money than anybody else and they were a little more interested in learning to fly, so he started an aviation school out there. And that was the first flying lessons I took, was in 1920, but it was 1926 before I really got into flying and seriously went through it and soloed an airplane.
Wanda: Well, can you think of anything else you'd like to put on here for…
Mr. Link: I don't think of anything.
Wanda: I think I've taken up quite a bit of your time.
Mr. Link: And that was a long time ago.
Mrs. Link: You've got a lot of—record there.
Wanda: Yes, and I certainly want to thank you for all of your time and our recollections, both of you.
",,,,"0:35 Minutes ; 33:15 Minutes ; 16:07 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Edwin and Marion Link",,,,1978-09-18,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Link, Edwin A. (Edwin Albert), 1904-1981 -- Interviews; Link, Marion -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Cortland (N.Y.); Aeronautics; Airplanes; Air pilots -- Interviews; Lindbergh, Charles A. (Charles Augustus), 1902-1974; Earhart, Amelia, 1897-1937; Link Aviation; Cortland Airport; Billy Brock; Clarence Chamberlain",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9c0caa2b6f76aae3a6cee213b0a58390.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a4b422963d350b81257af7ec701c139b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fd8dc33446201ec907fa1a9578a164bb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/99386620193634767a03324d984cf3b5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b35ab3da9ef863a5400ab861ab0f21c4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1c79e3908777620c6412fa4062cf6036.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4c5906411c378b38e37a98e80906ff5a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6865bb9ed56fd97287df0485b4e62fc7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0f2b92d8ceb42749eabed45604147ebd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/472634122e9cbdc28f3de833a102a8d9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/34227ae91be0573f44830cafcfc73cde.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0f474bdfa0ff71854205179f5769049b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/404d363921e956bbec0fbbf319a78db7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8c2ad51d1f91fe4e514ea42bda37534f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/500af1d460ffdf0bc6c8138164b4aa2c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bbf114415aa41cbda2bdbb39e07cae30.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65b999976ececd80670db7284b62296f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/898cd5f6e873b1773cad7d82a859d612.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0646fce963dd7c930b5fe3dbcd73e605.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dec5007d2864f4cdfd7b071d3fef2313.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c97e91da82437f5ac6a23ea11e0ca8cc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5f6aa3d4edf23469c153a0ce1fb7d4ad.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/afffa1b74b25e26490e1b72e583721c4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/24965edabdd1b89387a1dc2876ac4e7d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b237e4393d06fc0fa666d4090109db6a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0bc151fddd0508a0ff2ed6cba09a8e56.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ff79274b63a9dec4b87faf029ff0819f.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6e5f10bbb90acadb283e42a60eb96761.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/23842505feefe51458d3dce4f3d537d9.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d40ccc2a4e5cf0143d1136749f4b477c.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/76b3edbaf863909cb6f59e259ec9cc69.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a423f2f60a67f06de5336aa1819db4c8.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 1148,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1148,,,,,,,,,,2017-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History",,,,,,,,"24:58 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Eunice L. Davidson ",,"Davidson, Eunice L. ; Dobandi, Susan",,audio/mp3,"Teachers -- Interviews; Davidson, Eunice L.-- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cheese factories; Syracuse University; Mathematics; Washington (D.C.); United States Army","Eunice Davidson speaks of her father's cheese factory, the first one west of the Hudson, called the Deer Spring Factory. She discusses her experience growing up on Tremont Avenue in the city of Binghamton, watching it grow from farmland into an urban community. She studied math and Latin at Syracuse University and became a teacher, before moving to Washington, D.C. to work for the Department of Finance for the Army. She shares her experience watching farmlands change into more urban areas where she lived.",,,1978-10-11,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,Sound,"Recording 74",,"Dobandi, Susan","Davidson, Eunice L.",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Eunice L. Davidson
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of interview: 11 October 1978
Susan: Miss Davidson, could we start this interview by having you tell us something about where you were born and, ah, anything that you'd care to tell us about your parents?
Eunice: Well, I was born up in Chenango County, in Tyner, NY. My father had come from—his folks had come, rather, from Saratoga and lived up there, and he owned a cheese factory there. My mother had come from down in Pennsylvania, and they married and then, ah—this cheese factory he had bought really was one of the very first, ah, cheese factories in this side of, ah, the—ah, the ah, Hudson River, and it really was historic. And it was called the Deer Spring Factory because there was a very cold spring there that, ah—and it was deep and they kept it—at that time they kept their milk down in cans, and the cheese in the spring, which they didn't have the modern equipment, but it was the way they kept it in those days to keep it from souring and to keep it just right. Then, ah, when I was four years old my mother died and we—my brother and my sister and I were left with my father. My brother stayed with my father while my sister went with another aunt over at, in—in the town of Smithville, and I was adopted by a man in Greene, NY. We lived in Greene. I start—my sister came down and lived with us, and we lived there and started in school. When I was in the eighth grade we moved to Binghamton and, ah, at about six months after we moved to Binghamton, we moved down here on Tremont Ave. and my mother and my sister or I—I have lived here ever since. Now, I didn't always live here, because I've been away to school and work. When we moved here, there was, this part of the city was, well, it had been farmland, and the barns from the farms were still here. There were one over here next door to us and there was one across the street, and the one that had the barn over there across the street had horses, and I can remember his bringing—if we wanted anything brought, we didn't have taxis, but he would bring it to us with that horse and carriage or horse and wagon, and of course there weren't so many buildings.
I can remember when they tore the old barn down and then built up around here. They built the apartment houses over at #1 Tremont and, ah, then, ah, next door they tore the barn down, but they didn't rebuild in there but there was quite a little land with that building, a little farmhouse, and they had divided it up, built an apartment house at #7, and they built another house above that and, ah, we of course went to school here, it was, of course our schools were different than they are today. We didn’t have to have flat (one story) without walking upstairs. When I first came here, I went over on Washington Street to the eighth grade. I was in the eighth grade when I came down here and, ah, had classes over there. Then the next year, when I finished the eighth grade, they were starting to build the new high school—the Binghamton Central High, which is there now, and then of course we went to school over here at, ah, it's where the Abraham Lincoln School is. It was the old New Street School, and we had our classes half a day. The New Street School children came half a day and, ah, we went there two years in that school before the high school was rebuilt.
Susan: When you went away to school, Miss Davidson, where did you go?
Eunice: I went to Syracuse University and put in four years there. A little incident that tells of how the times have changed, maybe, is, once—I was, of course we traveled back and forth on the train, and not by bus or cars as they do now, and we were stuck in the snow one day when I was coming down, up at, ah, just a little above Cortland, and there was a snow belt through there, and the train was stopped and we were there hours before we came through.
Susan: What did you study in Syracuse?
Eunice: Well, I studied Liberal Arts—I studied, Mathematics was my major and Latin was my minor. Then, ah, after that, of course, I taught for a while.
Susan: Which schools did you teach in?
Eunice: Well, I taught up at, ah, Crown Point, NY, and I don't want to go into all—and over here, a year in Central High.
Susan: Oh, at Central.
Eunice: I decided then to get out of teaching and do something else, so finally after several years in which I did different things, I went to Washington, D.C. to work for the government. I worked in the Army Finance and we—which was very interesting, interesting in Washington, but of course we, ah, didn't—it wasn't the same Washington that it is today, but let me go back in when—I was in school, our education, I think we had a wonderful education, because they taught us how to find things, how to change. We weren't taught just one thing, how to do it. We were taught that learning was living, and we should really find out and think how to change, and of course mathematics is great for that because you can't solve your problems unless you think of all the angles, and that helps you in living today.
Susan: Miss Davidson, would you like to go back and tell us what life was like, ah, when you were living out in the country?
Eunice: Well, when we were in Greene we had some wonderful neighbors. They did things for us. I remember in, ah, my first Christmas tree—one of the neighbors brought it and left it at our back door, and Mother, that was my adopted mother, was left alone. She had my sister and I there and she was trying to bring us up, and the neighbors really helped to do it, and when there was snow the boy over in the, ah—neighbor—one of the neighbors’ boys came over and shoveled out, I can remember shoveling out all around the house one day because he didn't know which door we wanted to go into when we came home, and another thing that was different in those days, I think the whole town knew who people were. They respected them and they helped one another. The churches worked harder. They were interested in the people and we had, ah, parties. I can remember a sleigh ride, going from Greene down to Chenango Forks for a sleigh ride. It was three sleighs, of course they were small churches. Once we went to another church and had a party down there and then came back, and it was things like that—that made life really interesting. One day we took some popcorn, went over to a neighbor’s and we had popcorn—ate it, and I think neighbors helping one another really helps. It makes life so much different than it is of today. Now we don't know our neighbors, they come and go, especially in the apartment houses around here, they change so often that we don't know them, and we have had some trouble with children. Well, one day we had a—they would pull up the—our posts that we have to help us come up the railings out there, and they keep pulling them up ’til one of the neighbors said, ""Well, we needed that to come in.” And the children left it alone. I think that they don't realize what they're doing. It is the neighbors and knowing people, and then too, we didn't have to be educated to one thing.
I think it all helped in growing up and well—then, of course, things were different, we—we had to do more things for ourselves. We didn't use taxis. I can't remember when we first, ah, used the taxi, of course when we came to Binghamton there was a trolley car that went. I can remember its going up to Ross Park, and we used to ride up there, although as a child I think we walked up there and we took hikes and beyond. We enjoyed that. The neighbors, not—there was a neighbor girl in school with me right next door, and we would, really enjoyed life in those days. Is that what you want to know?
Susan: Well, that's fine. Are you sure there isn't anything more that you'd care to add?
Eunice: Well, probably there is a lot of things. There were so many things that happened that were interesting, but of course it came out in the Sunday paper about—that about the fires over town that weekend, remember those fires?
Susan: Yes, the Overall Factory.
Eunice: Yes, yes, we remember that when it happened.
Susan: Were you there?
Eunice: We were overtown, Mother and I—were overtown, but ah, we didn't go to it or anything. We could just see the smoke and all from that.
Susan: Thank you very much, Miss Davidson.
Eunice: You’re welcome.
Susan: It's been nice talking with you.
Eunice: I hope it helps. There's so much that could probably have been said, but I just cannot think of it today.
Susan: Well, thanks again.
",,,,"24:58 minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Eunice L. Davidson",,,,1978-10-11,,,"Teachers -- Interviews; Davidson, Eunice L.-- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cheese factories; Syracuse University; Mathematics; Washington (D.C.); United States Army","2017-03-27 ",,,English,"Binghamton University Libraries","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4f4d3c26a75d5d6b7911195034803c16.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 523,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/523,,,,,,,,,,2016-03-27,,,,,,,,,"Broome County Oral History Project",,,,,,,,"21:53 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Anna Kinnane ",,"Kinnane, Anna ; O'Neil, Dan",,"audio/mp3 ","Kinnane, Anna -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Ellis Island Immigration Station (N.Y. and N.J.); Telephone companies -- Employees -- Interviews; Ireland; Cigar industry ","Anna Kinnane talks about her emigration from County Clare, Ireland through Ellis Island and on to Binghamton, NY to be closer to her sisters and for employment. She describes her responsibilities as an operator at the telephone company, her salary, the conditions she worked in, as well as, her promotion from operator to supervisor. She also mentions the local cigar industry. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",1978-11-29,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 39 ",,"O'Neil, Dan","Kinnane, Anna",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Anna Kinnane
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of Interview: 29 November 1978
Dan: OK Ann, on what date and from what part of Ireland did you emigrate from and for what reason?
Anna: All right, I came from Ireland in May 1925 and of course I landed in New York and then came on to Binghamton and now you want to know?
Dan: For what reason?
Anna: For what reason—well I came because my sisters were here ahead of me and they wanted me to be with them and mostly for employment.
Dan: OK now before your entered the States, Ann, you had to go through Ellis Island.
Anna: Yes.
Dan: Yeah, OK, and how were things then?
Anna: Well, I would say the people there were coming—it was fairly good, it wasn't a place you would want to stay two or three days there but to go through which only took a couple of hours, it was all right. Everybody was really very nice and courteous. They gave you a card with your name and address on it, where you were going and your destination. Then when you went to the gate, the fellows at the gate directed you where to go but of course my Sisters met me there which made it easier for me.
Dan: Yeah, did they give you any sort of physical examination?
Anna: No, none whatsoever. All right he asked you how much money you had and you told him and then if it agreed which they wanted, OK they marked your baggage and that’s all.
Dan: Now did you mention what part of Ireland you came from?
Anna: County Clare, Ireland.
Dan: County Clare.
Anna: Yeah, C-L-A-R-E.
Dan: OK so in other words your sisters were here already?
Anna: Yes they were here ahead of me.
Dan: And ah you came over here to seek employment and then where did you work Ann?
Anna: At the telephone company.
Dan: And what year was that?
Anna: It was 19, let me see I've got it down here.
Dan: Just the year.
Anna: It was 1926.
Dan: 1926.
Anna: Just a year after I came.
Dan: OK fine. Now at that time you went to work for them, how were conditions? You want to describe in your own words your job?
Anna: I would say they were very good. I would say that they were really good—Welcome stations there. We worked of course our 8 hours and we worked ah 7 days a week including Sundays and at that time we only for time and a half for Sunday and a day off for the week. No, no excuse me, we didn't get time and a half, we got a day off for Sunday. A day off for Sunday and that went on for a period of some. Of course I had to be four weeks in the schoolroom in the training department which would be able to go on the switchboard.
Dan: Now how were the facilities in those days as far as the switchboard is concerned—in other words suppose that I would want to make a call, what would I have to do?
Anna: Well you would have to just dial the operator, take the receiver off and well, no you wouldn’t dial the operator. Just take the receiver off and a signal would appear on the switchboard.
Dan: I see. Did you have to flick the ah what do you call the ah—?
Anna: The transmitter.
Dan: Flick that?
Anna: Yeah, flick that.
Dan: And ah then what happens.
Anna: You call the operator when you flicked down the receiver, your signal came in on the switchboard.
Dan: Yeah and then you gave—
Anna: Then we answered your plug right in and say, “Operator,” and you give her the number and she put up the number and dial it for ya. Of course we had letters then you know for it to ring each one's party lines you know to ring and otherwise I mean it were direct lines.
Dan: Yeah, in other words there weren’t any of the crank—
Anna: No, no, none.
Dan: —machines in existence. So in other words any time that year, why, you wanted to make a phone call you had to dial or call the operator—that would be what they referred to them as Central.
Anna: Central, yeah.
Dan: Central and then you gave them the number and what did you do if you had a long distance phone call?
Anna: Long distance we would have to plug into another switchboard and we had to say, ""Give your number, 456 is calling long distance!” Whatever, what numbers that was.
Dan: OK and then when you started out, you say after four weeks of training, then that qualified you to work on the switchboard.
Anna: Right.
Dan: OK now from there what was the next step, I mean as far as training is concerned, I mean you went from the switchboard to supervisor?
Anna: Well I worked five years then as an operator and then I went on supervising.
Dan: And how many did you supervise, I mean how many girls?
Anna: About 12 or 14.
Dan: About 12 or 14. OK Ann do you remember about ah what year they changed over to the dial?
Anna: It was 1931.
Dan: 1931, dial system.
Anna: Yes, dial system.
Dan: And of course that was, you just dialed—was that just for local calls?
Anna: Yes.
Dan: You couldn’t dial for long distance?
Anna: No, no you had to get the operator for long distance.
Dan: Just the operator for long distance, so in other words in 1931 it was just dial for local.
Anna: Dial for local, you dialed your own numbers in 1931.
Dan: OK.
Anna: Gosh I actually don't remember what year they went to, they dialed long distance—it’s not too long ago. Make sure to look that up.
Dan: That they had the prefix like the SW or RA.
Anna: Yeah, yeah although, gosh I don't think it was more than 10 or 15 years do you?
Dan: No—when did you retire from there, Ann?
Anna: I retired in 1967.
Dan: In 1967, yeah, so that was just 10 years ago. I think that probably you could dial direct then.
Anna: Yeah you could.
Dan: Now what was the pay scale, that is, as far as in those days in 1926. The pay scale for, not your own salary, but I mean like for somebody that started?
Anna: When it was started, I started with $4.00 a week.
Dan: $4.00 a week.
Anna: Yes, then after 6 months you got a raise of $1.00 and so accordingly every 6 months you'd get something you know. When you got up to the average, I think the average at that time, it was $12.00.
Dan: Is that right?
Anna: I'm sure it was, wasn't nothing you know. Next year and the year after then they'd increase the starting pay would be $5.00 and then the starting pay would be that, but that was what I started with was $4.00.
Dan: Yeah, now the equipment that you used was what, Ann, at the telephone company? Just the switchboard and what else, headphones?
Anna: Earphones yeah, the headset earphones that's what they were, like they are now.
Dan: I think I saw in the paper not long ago where they ah had a picture of the telephone company where the Supervisor was on roller skates going up and down.
Anna: Oh yes they did, they had that in some place in New York or Boston.
Dan: Oh is that right? They didn't have that here though in this office?
Anna: No, no.
Dan: Now was the office located down on Henry Street at the present location?
Anna: No not at the present location, it was next door but the same place, you know where the new hole was put in for the Darling, you know, but the old office was where the Morning Sun went in.
Dan: I see.
Anna: But I mean of course they're back. They have that building back again now so really it is the same place I would say.
Dan: Yeah.
Anna: But an addition, addition added on for new dial.
Dan: I see, so how many employees were there approximately in 1926 you know?
Anna: Gosh I don’t know. Oh there must have been a couple hundred.
Dan: Couple of hundred, and have they increased that number since then?
Anna: Oh yes, then in ‘31, see before they went dial they had over 300 but of course then that decreased it because you know a lot of ones were working there extra and different things like that and they took their severance pay and got out.
Dan: Yeah, ah did they have any retirement program at all, Anna?
Anna: Yes.
Dan: And ah lets see, both of your sisters worked there too at the telephone company?
Anna: No, no, just Nora.
Dan: Oh, just Nora.
Anna: Yeah.
Dan: Did she work there longer than you did?
Anna: No, she came after me.
Dan: She came after you did. Now to your knowledge, Anna, were there any tobacco companies at all or tobacco factories in the area at that time, 1926?
Anna: Oh yes, there was ah down there on Water Street or something, ah what was it now Hummil’s, or wasn’t there two?
Dan: Two on Water Street?
Anna: Yes, I forget the name of them—there was two tobacco companies. A lot of women on Pine Street used to work down there. Gosh that would be easy to find out. Did you know the names of any?
Dan: We're trying to find out because our—we can't seem to get much information on it.
Anna: There, there, I know there was two because I know around there was a girl there used to come and visit with Delia and my sister Delia because she started in one of those and then she transferred to Sisson’s store, she was there a month or so—she couldn't stand the odor there—and something like Hummils or something else, I forget now. I know that there were two and I think where they were one was across the street from one another. Is that Water Street where the church is down there, that Christ Church?
Dan: Yeah.
Anna: I think it was that building across the street there.
Dan: Oh yeah, where I think there was a plumbing outfit, in there at one time, and you think that was a tobacco factory?
Anna: A tobacco factory. I know there was two tobacco factories because there was girls up the street used to work with me when I went to work at 8 o'clock and they were going down to the factory there. I wish I could remember the names of the two—maybe you could find out from someone if they were down there.
Dan: Now the homestead there on Pine Street, was that where you lived all the while you were here?
Anna: Right.
Dan: Of course your sisters died and you moved to this location.
Anna: Yeah.
Dan: So it was close by to work anyway, wasn't it?
Anna: Indeed it was. Roll out of bed and get in there.
Dan: Yeah.
Anna: You know sometimes when 5 or 6 lay off they call you.
Dan: Let’s see, 1926 to 1977 is 51 years. Now how was downtown Binghamton in those days?
Anna: Downtown, really, I thought was beautiful in those days. All the stores and everything.
Dan: Everything was filled?
Anna: Everything was filled and you could go in the stores and get anything you wanted and everybody was so nice to you. Knew all the clerks and everything was like old home week—it was really beautiful.
Dan. Yeah.
Anna: And you could get anything you wanted in the line of clothes if you had the money to pay for it.
Dan: OK, so in other words it was a 7 day a week job and they gave you one day off. In other words, Sunday was your day off.
Anna: Yeah that was your day off, but that meant you had to work every other Sunday.
Dan. Oh, every other Sunday.
Anna: Every other Sunday.
Dan: Yeah, well is there anything else, Ann, that you could add?
Anna: Let’s see, well then, of course after you were there 2 years you got 1 week’s vacation and then after 6 years you got 2 years vacation or 2 weeks vacation, I mean 2 weeks vacation, and then of course they get 4 now after they're there a certain length of time. They get 4 and 5 weeks vacation and they got double time for Sunday and now they're getting a starting pay of about $200.00.
Dan: Is that right?
Anna: That’s right.
Dan: $200.00 today and you started at $4.00 a week.
Anna: Right, right, when I left after I left in ‘41 that’s when they went up—they, we used to, when we got $1.00 or $2.00 raise we'd think we were happy—now $5 and $10 they get. $5 and $10. They'd think nothing of $1 or $2 raise.
Dan: But an operator starts out with $200 a week?
Anna: Yes.
Dan: And of course going up in a supervisor capacity means more.
Anna: More.
Dan: And still get four weeks paid vacation.
Anna: They're getting 5 weeks paid vacation.
Dan: Is that right?
Anna: They got 35 years of service.
Dan: Well, things have certainly changed. ‘Course we got to consider the fact that when you first started, that $4.00 went about as far as that $200.00 today.
Anna: I don't know how we lived on it once but anyway we did.
Dan: OK so Anna that’s as much as I can cover right now. If I should happen to come up with anything else that I might have overlooked, why I’ll get in touch with you.
Anna: Surely—fine, great.
",,,,"21:53 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Anna Kinnane",,,,1978-11-29,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Kinnane, Anna -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Ellis Island Immigration Station (N.Y. and N.J.); Telephone companies -- Employees -- Interviews; Ireland; Cigar industry",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e7438169129d1bbb162338672d8ef976.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 517,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/517,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Elizabeth Hladik ",,,,"audio/mp3 ","Hladik, Elizabeth -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Household employees -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Cigar industry ","Elizabeth Hladik talks about her parents' emigration from Czechoslovakia and being the only one of six siblings to attend school, up until the 8th grade, after which point she was employed as a domestic. She worked at Vale Ballou, Dunn McCarthy, Endicott Johnson, and in New York City. She speaks of a Mrs. Murphy who was very helpful to her mother in adapting to the American lifestyle. She also discusses how her parents attended night school to learn the language, her mother's employment at the Cigar Factory, and her father's employment at the Endicott Johnson Corporation. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 33 ",,"Caganek, Anna","Hladik, Elizabeth",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Elizabeth Hladik
Interviewed by: Anna Caganek
Date of interview: 27 February 1978
Anna: I am Anna Caganek: the interviewer. I am talking to Betty Hladik. 24 Isabel Street, Binghamton, New York. The date is February 27, 1978.
Elizabeth: Take your boots off.
Anna: Tell me, tell me about your experiences.
Elizabeth: Yes.
Anna: Uh, Betty…in the community.
Elizabeth: Okay, is it here? Is it started? I don’t know. I’m Elizabeth Hladik. Eh, born in 1910 of immigrant parents, Frank and Mary Konecny. They came here from Gbely, Czechoslovakia, in 1904 to Ellis Island in America, bought a home on Berlin Street in the First Ward and lived, uh…let’s see, lived there all their lives. They bought it for $2400 in 1912. And I lived there most of my life…ah, ha-married, had two children and two grandchildren. My father at 15 [years] was an apprentice to a shoe cobbler, and lived in Vienna two years. So he naturally went to Endicott-Johnson area here to find work after trying out in the coal mines in Lansford, Pennsylvania, he decided he wouldn't spend his life underground even if the pay was higher. He was content with making shoes and raising a family of six children. Yeah. He inspired me to do domestic work for good families, which he claimed would be more rewarding than to take a homemaking course in high school. I never went to school higher than the 8th grade, and I was quite content, but at times frustrated. The pay wasn't ideal at the time. At least I got around and got an insight of how people of worth live. Why did you have that around? Oh, I see. So at least I got around.
At 15 and a half, I started as a domestic with Mrs. Murray, 206 Main Street in Binghamton. She was the widow of an Admiral, and she entertained elegantly, having a Swedish cook, and I learned a lot early in life. Also worked for the Chamberlains of Lathrop Avenue—he was an editor of Binghamton Press—and the Gails—butter and egg people, and meat. Then a Mr. Clement Bowers, dad who was an inventor, lived on Main Street—I worked for them. Mrs. Daniel Dickinson of South Mountain—her husband was an ambassador of United States to Turkey. Then for a while I worked for a Mrs Frank Harris, he was in the extract business and also the 5-cent doughnut shop on Court Street. And the Edwin Link family, the inventor. And also for a time did restaurant work: the G & H Diner, helping with many chores: the dishes, counter work, and also the diet kitchen in the old Broome County Infirmary on Front Street, and Vail-Ballou book bindery. Then I worked in E.J.’s in the very early years in the Jigger Factory on Willow Street making tennis shoes. And also in Dunn McCarthy Factory as [chuckles] fancy stitcher.
Then for a time I went to New York, worked on 5th Avenue and Park Avenue. I didn’t like the cockroaches. Even in wealthy homes, the bugs appeared now and then in old buildings. I had $75.00 a month pay and room and board. That was in 1939, about. I always liked Binghamton—I think it’s nice to travel around, but here is where I like to hang my coat. Especially [laughing] I’ll always remember our great neighbors. Minnie and John Murphy of 3 Berlin Street, who helped mold my childhood. Actually, Mrs. Murphy, who had no children, was a great help to my mother. She taught my mother the American way of life and came over to show her how to make pumpkin pie, custard puddings, and beef vegetable style, and corned beef and cabbage, and doughnuts. She had been a cook in the Waterfleet New York Hotel in her days, and she was quite a cook. And of course my mother exchanged apple strudel and kolachky for some of her cooking. She used to bring over, to us kids when we came home at lunchtime, some hot meals. Not many people do that today to help out. She was a great neighbor. My mother worked in the cigar factory, couldn't be home to get our lunches. Mrs. Murphy brought over many times, how I remember. Baked potatoes, especially, and creamed cod fish—I loved that.
Anna: What did your mother do in the cigar factory?
Elizabeth: She was a bunch maker, and she rolled cigars—that’s what she did, and sometimes she made more than my father did in the shoe factory [laughs]. And Mrs. Murphy made real molasses cookies, and mince pie with beef in it, and she inspired my parents to go to night school, and both my parents learned to read. Mrs. Murphy was not a habitual churchgoer, but she was a respected individual and will always live in the hearts of all who knew her, because to live in hearts we leave behind is not to die, and God will always bless America as long as there are people like the Murphys and the Konecnys that can help each other and set a good example for generations to come. And in the face of the high cost of living today, a good word and a helping hand will create the necessary boost we need to encourage us to go on, no matter what life holds.
Anna: Did you ever, what did you do for amusement?
Elizabeth: Oh, well. When I was very young I used to go out to pick berries up in Ely Park, that was our favorite pastime—when we were kids, that is. And, ah, after I grew up to be a teenager, I did a little dancing in the Pavilion, and met—and saw some of the great band leaders and all.
Anna: What were some of the—could you remember some of the band leaders?
Elizabeth: Well, of course Benny Goodman, and all those. I didn’t I go too much but I saw some of the greats: Johnny, Johnny Greene, and his band, and—oh dear, who is it? Now that I can’t think.
Anna: Did you ever go to the Woodrow Wilson alumni—
Elizabeth: Yes, I went to the Woodrow Wilson School here in Binghamton, up to the 8th grade, and we had wonderful teachers there as I remember. Miss, ah—Miss, ah…she taught us English—oh dear, she’s dead now. Mrs., Miss Stone was the principal, of course.
Anna: Miss Berzel?
Elizabeth: No, Miss Merzel was in Jarvis Street School. I went part-time to Jarvis Street School too. And Woodrow was very nice but we had to come home from school every lunchtime. It took us an hour, I mean, to get back home and eat and do the dishes up and then go back to school. We had an hour to walk all that distance and then go back again. Snow, raining, or shine, no buses, no cafeterias, but we made out [laughs] because as I say, Mrs. Murphy always gave us a lift there—she had no children. Her husband was a blacksmith here on Hawley Street where the old police station used to be—yes. He was one of the last of the, ah, last of the blacksmiths in town, and he died in 1930. So he was a great man. He also bought an old Ford, old Tin Lizzie [laughs]. He never had electricity in his house, he didn't believe in it—they used kerosene oil.
Although we had electricity in our house next door to him. And, ah, our childhood was much different than today, yes it was, and we did more chores around the house than kids think of today. We had all the chores to do because our parents worked—we had to scrub clothes on a washboard, and I remember standing on a little stool just so I could reach the washboard and do my stuff, because my older sister did housework outside. And I had to carry on and do the cooking at 12—I was quite a cook—so I learned, because our parents were both working. That’s how it is today too, both parents are working, but the children, I guess, do not do much cooking. aside from (laughs) hamburgers they can get around the corner, and potato chips and Coca-Cola. I was raised up on different type of food and I'm glad I have that to remember, and I try to keep up as much as I can. Maybe that’s what keeps people young in their outlook on life, and what they've had in the past makes up for a good life.
You have to eat good, sensible food in order to live a long life and be healthy—and do your share of work. It’s all fun in the long run. But it can’t be all play in life, you can’t expect to be loafing around and playing games or cards—I wasn't much for card games, it’s a waste of time, or bingo [laughs]. I suppose that’s all amusement, but I have a simple way of life, and I like to walk an awful lot and see nature. That’s my amusement–and my grandchildren now.
Anna: Do you like to do anything by hand?
Elizabeth: Oh, I used to do a little crocheting and patchwork and embroidery, and some painting pictures on the side. That was my hobby. Oh, but I have not been so interested in it lately, it’s too much hard work. I don’t like the idea of being gummed up with paint and get my house all plastered up, I just don’t care for it anymore. But it’s a great hobby; they told me I did well. I have a few pictures I did, but I don’t expect to sell them for a great deal, so I [laughs] keep them. And don’t have them hanging on the walls, either. But someday, I’ll get back to it and enjoy painting once again. Because—maybe when I get older [laughs]—I’m too young—I’m too young to get old.
Anna: You’re retired now?
Elizabeth: Now I’m retired, I’m 67, yes. And I expect I’ll like to live to be 85, at least. And if I keep going the way I have and no setbacks, no real ill health, why, then I’ll probably make it and try to help other people that are in worse condition than I am, or—here in the building where I live, there’s some that need help and don’t have too much money to pay for a nurse. Why, you could give a little of your time, but don’t be taken advantage of to the full length. Just a little here and a little there, it’s good to help people along the way, and that’ll make your day. So I am glad to have had this opportunity to talk and tell a little about my life. But at any rate—well, I think I missed out on saying all of the places I worked at. I worked in E.J. Jigger factory and in Dunn McCarthy, I said that before, and the Links—oh—Broome County Infirmary, did I mention that? And Vail Ballou in the book bindery, and—I think I mentioned that, yes. But anyhow, it pays—my father gave me a good example in life, always not to be money mad but to do a job where your heart is in it and to like your work, no matter how much you got paid. Of course, my trouble was I never got much money, but I think I was happy in life, and that’s the main thing. Thank you.
Anna: Oh, thank you, Betty. Thank you.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Mary Sovik
Interviewed by: Anna Caganek
Date of interview: 10 April 1978
Mary: My father was born in Austria-Hungary and he came to America in 1891, and my mother didn’t hear from him for quite a while, so she packed up, just with the clothes she had on left my two brothers over there, came to Jamaica, Long Island in 1894, because he wasn’t sending her, any money, and she wondered, if he was dead or alive. So then she said, “I’m not going back no more.” It took her too long to come here, thirteen days on the boat, no clothes only just, what, she had on so in 1895, I was born. My father had been in the bread line that’s why he didn’t hear, that’s why she didn’t hear from, him. Cleveland was president at that time and there was a depression, and my father worked in Jamaica, Queens, Long Island, on a farm, where they were raising vegetables, to take to New York. They called it a Truck Farm. So then a year later, so then my brothers came from Austria-Hungary, one was 20 years older than me, and the other was 19 years old. The reason they were so much older than I because two children died, in Europe, while my father was in America, they had the cholera. That’s what they died from and then my brothers came and they heard someone crying, my mother was giving me something to eat, they heard a baby crying. They said, “Who is that?” My mother said, “You got a little sister, we forget to tell you.” So that was me.
Well then we lived in Queens, my brothers worked on the farm, too, carrots, cabbage and all that, it was [illegible] farming, so then we, moved to Rockland Lake, and my brothers worked as dynamiters, making that route one from Florida to Boston route, and they worked, there as dynamiters, then we moved from there to Johnston, NY, when I was 8 years old, and I went to school in Johnstown, I went there ‘til 1909 and I quit at the age of 14 years and went to work. In the glove factory, I worked at 10 cents an hour for 8 hours a day, so putting thumbs in and tying them with the other part of the glove. And I could hardly wait ‘til I would be 16 years old so I could work 10 hours a day, dollar a day.
So then I went on piecework and I worked on a machine. First I pulled ends, you call it end pulling, it’s that silk, in the back of the glove 3 cents a dozen. Then I went there three years later, and I thought well I’m going, to go to that factory, where I used to work, and I went, to look for the employers and I asked, “How much do you get a dozen?” It was about 5 years later, they were getting 40 cents a dozen for the same work the same work that I was getting 3 cents a dozen. And I was making 25 dollars a month.
So then I went to Europe in 1913 and I went to, on a boar the name was the Kaiser Wilhelm, it was called the Kaiser Wilhelm, with a cousin, that lived in Gloversville, I went to her parents with her and our boat costs us 58 dollars one way, just on the boat. She came up to the factory, she just came to say goodbye, to me. She says, “Mary I’m going to Europe, my mother wants me to come home. Why don’t you come with me?”
“Wait, I’ll go home and ask my mother if I can go,” and I went home, and my mother said, “What are you coming home so early?” I said, “Netty’s going to Europe. Can I go with her?” She says, “Are you crazy? Going over all that water.”
So we went to Cloversville, we got the tickets it costs us 58 dollars on the boat one way, and we went to Bremen, and we rode, on the train to Pressburg, and then I went to Malacky, where my aunt lived and we went to visit different aunts. I went to St., Svatý Mikuláš, St. Nicholas, and I was in Marie, Tal, Sastin, and I went, to Prague, my aunt took me there to see the Sokol’s drill and we were there until November.
I came back to Johnstown, NY, just in time for Dance for Thanksgiving, for Lent, before Lent. I was in Vienna also. When I was in Johnstown after I got married, in 1915, July 3, 1915 and lived in Johnstown and then we finally moved, to Saratoga, we were there for 2 years in Saratoga, moved back to, Johnstown again then in 1919 we moved to Binghamton and I’ve been here since. I go to Johnstown every year, I drive. I’ve been going to Johnstown every year, and I’ve traveled, quite, a bit, I’ve been to Panama City, Florida from Binghamton. My daughter was married there, her husband was a flyer, Paul Vanek. He was Lieutenant, and Paul Vanek was a flyer, I went to Queens, Long Island, when I was single yet, in 1914 to visit my godmother in Jamaica, and Queens, Long Island, was a regular farm.
I went to Sunny Side Long Island, and I went to the World’s Fair, in Yonkers and my godmother, did lived in Queens, but it was just a farm, and I’ve been to Miami, Florida six times, I have two cousins there, Miami Beach, six times. I have a niece and a nephew there, Hollywood Florida, Pompano Beach, Fort Lauderdale my niece’s husband’s son lived there. New York City 15 times. I went to Fort Lauderdale with the Senior Citizens, we went to Disney World and they took us all over, on that, boat that goes along the canal there we went to dinner and to outside dinner, and to vaudeville, show, and we also went to Key West.
Also to Miami Beach on a trip, they took us by bus. Clearwater, we went to Kobak Tree for dinner and I’ve been to Auriesville, I used to go to Auriesville in 1904, it was only 7 miles from Johnstown. I went there on a horse and wagon (ah) I saw a priest out there, he was, from England, and I got talking to him, “I used to come here in 1904-1907. To the old church, in a wagon with the fringe on top.” (Oh) And he said he was from Ireland, oh with the Surrey with the fringe on top, so I seen him there, several times, when I go to Auriesville, and I’ve been there ten times, since I live in Binghamton. When I go to Johnson I always go to Auriesville and I went to Poughkeepsie, to friends to a wedding, and San Diego in California went, to visit my grandson and wife, and my little great-granddaughter was born, she was two months old when I went there, they took me to, Mexico.
I went to Tijuana, Mexico, Joya, and I went to Chicago 13 times, my daughter lived at Mt. Prospect, Illinois, now she lives in, Guilford, Connecticut, and I’ve been there 8 times, Guilford. My grandson lived there now he lives at East Hartford, now I have to go, to East Hartford, troy, NY. Bowlers with the E.J.A.A. Bowlers. I was a bowler, Buffalo, NY with the Bowlers we went Niagara Falls with the Bowling Team with the E.J.A.A. used to go to Schenectady, then in. My brother lived in Schenectady, then in second, Secondaga, Lake 1975, but I used to go there in 1912, when it was Secondaga Park roller skating, and swimming, when we used to wear, stockings and bloomers for bathing.
I’ve been to Rochester 4 times, my grandson graduated, from University, of Rochester then he graduated from Strong Memorial, he’s a doctor, there now he got married and I was there Christmas visiting them, then some in Auburn the one that used to live in San Diego so now I, have two great-grandchildren. I’ve been there several times, then, went to Nashville, Tennessee, with the Senior Citizens in 1976. Montreal, Canada, in 1975 with the Senior Citizens. Now I’m, retired when I was 63 years old that was in 1958, retired from E.J.
And I started to babysit, I lived in Hillcrest in a trailer, trailer park for 9 years, Tingley’s. I babysay for 50 cents an hour, by the hour, afternoon and evenings. So then Mrs. Kresge asked me Martha Kresge, if I would, babysit a week or two days and night while they went to Germany, to sell Volkswagens. So I said sure, they lived at Chenango Forks. So I started babysitting, people heard about me, so then I, started babysit move right in and took care of the children, while, people went on vacations. I sat for doctors, lawyers, dentists, and IBM workers all kinds of businessmen, I even sat for Charlie Johnson’s, grandson, and I also sat for Charlie Johnson when they went to down south South Carolina, someplace the daughter lived there someplace, they went to soo, some Dupont (they went to visit Dupont) and I sat for several doctors, the Horowitzes all the Dr. Demtrak and Dr. Ansell, Dr. Goodman, eye doctor also pediatrician, Dr. Bronstein, Dr. Kondrad Stearns. I couldn’t mention how many, I could be, must be a hundred, Dr. Baron, must be 250 families that I have sat for, so now at 82 I am going to relax now.
And I’m going to enjoy myself with the Senior Citizens, I go to Senior Citizens for dinner, I belong to Greenman’s Center, I belong to, the Johnson City Nutrition Center at the High School, I belong, to the, First Ward Senior Citizens, I go there for [illegible], to the meetings, and we enjoy ourselves very much.
Anna: Could you think of anything else?
Mary: I have two daughters, one lives in Binghamton then I, have another daughter lives in Guilford, Connecticut. I have six grandsons the oldest one is 33 and the youngest one is, will be one Sweet Sixteen in March and the other one will be 16 in, June. Two wonderful grandsons, they are very good to me and I have, one niece in Johnson City, and that’s my son in law is General Manager, in, Dunn McCarthy, he started there when he was a young boy, pushing boxes, around, pushing racks around and finally worked on heels, worked at heels, and then he went in the service, Waco, Texas, he was a flyer, he went, to Panama City, and the great-grandson was born there. And he came back, he came back and went, back on heels again at, Dunn McCarthy, and they finally asked him, “Would you like to be a foreman?” so he was a foreman. Then they sent him back to Auburn Superintendent.
Then they sent him back to Binghamton to be General Manager. Now he’s up in Auburn back and forth working. My other son in law the one that lived in Connecticut, he was working for Charlie Bloomer in Mt. Prospect. As a research chemist. Then they transferred him to Guilford, Connecticut, been there now in research they had 3 sons, each one one of my, daughters had 3 songs, I finally di get a granddaughter, a great-granddaughter which I was waiting for because I had two girls, and I wanted some granddaughters, and they closed Dunn McCarthy, yes he is, working in Auburn now. He worked in Dunn McCarthy for 37 years. He came back he goes there on Monday and comes back on Friday. She works in a bank. I go with every week with the Senior Citizens. I go to Johnson City play Bingo, we play for pennies 25 games 2 cents a, game and sometimes I’m lucky and sometimes I’m not, lately I’m lucky and I’ve had so many pennies to carry my pocketbook drags, on the floor it is fun.
And the girls are very nice. They also play Bingo, but we like to, play for the pennies. I belong to St. Stan’s. St. Stanislav on Prospect, Street. I used to belong to St. James when my girls were little and then I, we did go to St. Cyril’s and then when I moved to Hillcrest, I went to, St. Katherine’s about 9 years I lived in Hillcrest then I was, when I came home to live, my daughter’s mother in law they went to St. Stan’s. So my daughter said, “Mother why don’t you go to St. Stan’s? You can take Mom and Dad to church,” they used to ride with me to church. And I’ve been going to St. Stan’s for 17 years. Eddie’s the daughter, from Connecticut. They go to St. Cyril’s. The Vaneks do.
Anna: Thank you Mrs. Sovik.
Mary: Some of the people I babysat. Dr. Marvin, Dr. Sivers, Dr. Horney, Dr. Nortons, Epstein, Dr. Bronsky, Dr. Klima Grandel, Dr. Gould, Dr. Goodman eye and baby doctor, Dr. Koslawsky, Dr. Amtrak, Margolas, Kurst, Bateglino, Hogopian, Norman Rudin, The Parrish Sanford, Olums, Dr. Natala, Dr. Baron. Dr. Shute, Dr. Sife, Dr. Stevens, Dr. Weiss, Dr. Kenneth Smith, Conrad Stemis, Koffmans, the Monks, the Emmas, Dr. Posture, Dr. R.E. Nell, Dr. Stevens, the Andersons Norwich, Hestor, lawyer, Dr. Graff and Dr. Roff, the Levenes, Dr. Steinbough, Dr. Brown, Dr. Monserette, Dr. Cleary, Dr. Davidge, Dr. Doyle, Dr. Vreede, Dr. Moriarty, Dr. Pemberton, Dr. Hayden, Dr. Cox, Dr. Divovan. Dr. Donovan, the Hotchkiss and Dave Lewis.
",,,,"35:00 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Mary Sovik",,,,1978-04-10,,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Sovik, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Babysitters -- Interviews","2016-03-27 ",,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a026c848f6e3bd2213ebc627be84019c.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5ad631af21b93a37446891625f46e9af.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1eb2b3f2d024df81a9f77db199f809a0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8b74f3dbc4084c4fb3965d1c0c59ffb0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6498f18ef8d967710016671df96e4fa2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a53cc1707481c21f193560825045ec72.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4c448fc7ff7c85a5d0c1477a05f11ba1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e46e77147d87eece31bf4e0bd47ebd57.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d22277f289183b7e030770831969c882.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/de9a0cb62f8f8af290f22045f8db5fb5.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 541,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/541,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Anne Spisak ",,,,"audio/mp3 ","Spisak, Anne -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Cigar industry ","Anne Spisak of Endicott, NY talks about working at the General Cigar factory in Binghamton as an examiner. She describes the products they produced and sold at the cigar factory, lack of a labor union, the process of making cigars and the aspects of her job. She mentions getting married and getting a job at Endicott Johnson Corporation polishing shoes. She discusses the Perl Bakery, which she and her husband owned, but later sold. She also discusses how her religion played a big part in her life. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 57 ",,"Politylo, Nettie ","Spisak, Anne ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Anne Spisak
Interviewed by: Nettie Polityo
Date of interview: 29 December 1977
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo talking to Anne Spisak of 43 Bernice St., Johnson City on Dec. 29, 1977. I understand you worked in a cigar factory here in Binghamton some years ago. We are especially interested in this industry because we don’t know much about it. Why don’t we start with the time you started work there—just tell me—how you got the job, what you did, what other people did to prepare the tobacco and make the cigars and just everything you remember about the operation of the factory. OK Anne—
Anne: I started working I think about 1929, I think I was around fifteen and I went to the General Cigar Factory—they asked our age, I told them I was eighteen which I was only fifteen. Whether I was supposed to lie or not but I don't know but I did. Then they gave me a job which was examiner. I liked the job. There was four people on the machine to work—one was a feeder, one was a binder and a wrapper and I was an examiner. I had to feel the cigars for their size, for their weight and the cigar. I had a box and there was 500 cigars in a box. I don't know what we got paid by the box but our average pay for the week was $12, so I think that it would be about 30 cents an hour. As for as I would figure it now. And I enjoyed it, I had a nice boss named Mr. Lawrence and once in a while he had his brother which his name was Lorenzo which I couldn't figure that out because they were both brothers. One of them bought a restaurant on Front St., a spaghetti place. The cigar factory, I think closed down for what reason I don' t know.
Nettie: Excuse me, Anne, do you have any idea when that closed down?
Anne: I don't know, it wasn't too long after.
Nettie: Before you tell me about the closing, how about telling me about the operation what you were actually doing?
Anne: I had to feel the cigars, it was on a big machine, feel the cigar for size and I had to put them in the box and if they didn’t match just right you had to take them out and patch them up—if there was a little defect in the tobacco you had to patch them up with little glue, we had our glue to put on, and the machine would operate like a conveyor and had to go to a place fast. If I thought I was a little behind, then I would put them in a big bin then I would take my time and when I had recess or noon, I would patch them up again. And if the big bosses came around they would put their hand in and stop the operation—fill those out, patch them up and start working again. The girls on the machine would help us because we could not operate any further until everything was done. And the big bosses were from Pennsylvania, one of the boss's name was Mr. Joseph, a big fat man with a big cigar in his mouth, is all I can remember. They were pleasant, no one was ever harsh. Then when they came around I had age on my mind all the time because I was afraid they were going to throw me out and I did want work and because I had to work. I figure I had to at that time. We didn't have any coffee breaks as far as I can remember.
Nettie: You never had any coffee breaks?
Anne: Not that I remember.
Nettie: You just kept on working?
Anne: Just kept right on working ’til noon, as far as I remember. The windows had to be closed in the place on account of the tobacco drying up.
Nettie: For the humidity?
Anne: Yeah.
Nettie: What kind of people worked there—what nationalities?
Anne: I think it was all kinds, mostly women. The men had the machine jobs or like repair men.
Nettie: Did you have any familiarity with the machine jobs? Any jobs?
Anne: The first one was a feeder—where they put in a big long tobacco into the machine that would feed it. And the other operation was a wrapper—was a machine that you would wrap it, you know, and the cigar would roll. And the third one—was the top of the process already of the cigar and I already had the finished product.
Nettie: How did they pay you—by the hour or by the week?
Anne: I think they paid us by the 500 can—cigars—500 cigars. You had to make 500 cigars in the can—to put in a can… You were paid by that—every 500—so it ran about 30¢ hour by the pay I got, so I got $12 a week. That was big money at that time.
Nettie: How did you commute back and forth from Endicott?
Anne: Street car. I don't know whether it was a nickel or dime for the street car, from Endicott to Binghamton. Once I got off on the Binghamton line and it was an extra and I didn't have the money. I started crying. Then finally a man gave me the dime. Never been without a dime.
Nettie: Embarrassing.
Anne: I didn't realize I had to pay the extra after the arch—in Binghamton.
Nettie: Certain Zoning.
Anne: I didn't realize it was Binghamton—I never traveled before, we never had cars, nobody had a car, so I was never in Binghamton, so I didn't know it was a Binghamton line.
Nettie: The men were on the machines and the ladies did the other things?
Anne: Right—and the lady bosses—
Nettie: What were their names?
Anne: All I could remember was Celia Shawn and then she married a Barnes. I don't know if she is living or not.
Nettie: Many of these people have passed away?
Anne: Right—but all I know was her name was Shawn, she married a Barnes and lived in Endwell. I saw her a few times, I liked her.
Nettie: Did they make anything else besides cigars—like chewing tobacco, snuff?
Anne: They must’ve. I don't remember because I was on the machine floor. I don't know the bottom floor—I don't know—so I even asked this man today, ""Did they pack them in boxes?"" He said, ""Yeah.”
Nettie: Cigars? Yeah.
Anne: I didn't even know that—you know you don't pay attention too much when you are working—you were only doing your operation. I don't know what was going on the other section.
Nettie: You were only working—doing your job?
Anne: Right—right.
Nettie: Did they ever have a union?
Anne: No, no not that I know of.
Nettie: Did they ever strike for more money?
Anne: No, we didn't know what a strike was—everybody wanted a job.
Nettie: What brands did they make?
Anne: William Penn and White Owl—those two I remember.
Nettie: Those are familiar. Did they make expensive brands?
Anne: No, not that I know of.
Nettie: Well, the conditions in the factory—was it smelly, was it dusty from the tobacco?
Anne: Well it smells, but I didn't mind it.
Nettie: That smell didn't bother you—so many of the ladies, it did bother them.
Anne: It didn't bother me at all and I enjoyed working there.
Nettie: I guess they had to have the windows closed—
Anne: Yes, because of the tobacco—it would dry the tobacco, more.
Nettie: How about the facilities for women—did they have couches for women if they became ill in bathrooms?
Anne: No—I don’t remember—
Nettie: Everything was crude—wasn't it?
Anne: No, I don't remember at all , I don't remember.
Nettie: Did they have more than one shift?
Anne: No I don't remember anything about that, that I don’t remember. And we had to wear aprons, green aprons.
Nettie: Were they given to you?
Anne: No, we had to buy them—green wraparound with a pocket—you had to wear a dress and apron or just the apron. Some girls just wore the apron.
Nettie: That was the standard gear at the time?
Anne: Green aprons, yes.
Nettie: Did anyone ever snitch some cigars in their pocket?
Anne: Yes, I suppose some did but I never did—I took it if it were a big one—one they didn’t—one out of the ordinary or a little one sometime but that was like a joke—my father smoked cigars but I wouldn't bring them home, he wouldn't want that because that was stealing.
Nettie: Did you say you had to pack them together—was that a mold?
Anne: No, the machine is—ok—the conveyor ‘til about here the big machine—that lady would have tobacco this long—tobacco comes this long—when it's dry.
Nettie: Wasn’t there some sort of center that had to be taken out?
Anne: There was a vein, yeah, it is was too hard, I think, out.
Nettie: Who took that out?
Anne: It must’ve been on the feeding machine because the feeding starts the process.
Nettie: They put that tobacco and then they take the vein out in that feeding machine.
Anne: I think if it was rough—it would do it itself—I think the machine would do it itself. Then the next process would go—it was big as this—it would have a layer of wrapper already, the tobacco would come from there and go to another process.
Nettie: Didn’t you have to do this by hand?
Anne: No, by machine, no this was all by machine.
Nettie: After this was cut, and the wrapper was on the bottom—tobacco sort of skimmed on top of that.
Anne: The next process already was a smaller one—this was another layer and then that process would come to this one—and it would roll it automatically and I would get the full cigar.
Nettie: How about the wrapper? It’s on the bottom and it would skim to this other machine. What was the third machine?
Anne: She would have to put like a layer—like to make kolachki layer—and then that would wrap around the machine just automatically would roll it. And then through the next process—the cigar would come out a cigar already—and sometimes they were soft or hard—
Nettie: —you had to feel them if they were soft or hard—
Anne: Then we had this little hole—if you didn't think they were just right you put them through the hole and if it didn't go through the hole you knew it was a reject. Then you had to throw it back to have the right size—because you know if you buy a box you want them to be the right size because you didn't want them to be bigger or smaller—and sometimes if the patches—if sometimes there was a hole on it, the tobacco was not right size—you would put it on that machine and you'd see a hole—see in there—and she would give me a cigar anyway—again—I would have it all—already rolled up then I would see a hole in it and I would take a little tobacco that was a reject and put it on top of reject with glue, and make it look like not a reject and we patch them up. The girls would put it in their mouths, which I never did.
Nettie: Why did they put it in their mouth?
Anne: They pasted them that way—I don't know how they did it but they pasted them—putting them in their mouth.
Nettie: I should think if they had the paste they would paste them with their fingers.
Anne: Right. No, they put it in their mouth.
Nettie: Do you think they wanted to taste the tobacco?
Anne: Maybe. I had the glue just like the white glue, patch it up, cut a piece a little bit and patch so it would be even with the cigar, because cigar is rolled. Then you see that cigar has a big vein that has to go—should have a smooth cigar, you take a little bit of tobacco, cut it up to patch the reject, the way the vein goes—can't go against the grain.
Nettie: That was interesting. Now after you got the cigar you felt it, after you had to patch it or not, it was hard, it was a good cigar, but if spongy it was a reject—then after a reject you return it to the girl—
Anne: —return it to the grinder and it goes all over—she will have to correct it. Then we have a big can—
Nettie: Now when you had it wrapped—when do you see the hole—through paper wrapper?
Anne: No, it was tobacco.
Nettie: Wait, do you know what I am thinking of—paper wrapper?
Anne: No, tobacco. Then—
Nettie: Then they put the bands on.
Anne: I don't know what they did. Then I put them in these cans of 500—top of can was open—had sides, back and bottom—you put the cigar in there—there was 500—how we were paid and then the boy come and took the cigars out and then started again. First job—you call it a feeder—long tobacco put into the machine and then it takes the vein of tobacco and chops it off. No. 2—called binder—binds already tobacco for them.
Nettie: What is rollers?
Anne: That—must be another department—downstairs. No. 3 - wrapper for cigars top of tobacco—I got the finished product.
Nettie: In other words yours are machine made.
Anne: Yes, they are all machine made.
Nettie: Maybe those that were hand made were the expensive ones.
Anne: They used to make the hand made on Water St.—someplace, someplace.
Nettie: Now at your place they were machine made? I thought they were all hand made.
Anne: No, I'd go back—if that was there I'd go back there—I loved that job—that’s the only job I liked. EJ—was one piece work—everybody was always fighting for lousy coupons—I was in EJ too, about a year.
Nettie: How long did you work there?
Anne: I worked there 2 years. You did the same job over and over.
Nettie: When did you go to EJ?
Anne: I don't know when I went to EJ before or after—I know I didn't work when I got married. I first had a job in EJ and then I went there—I don't know—
Nettie: Did they pay better at EJ?
Anne: No, I did not like EJ—I liked cigar factory better. I think I liked the work better because I didn't like working on a machine.
Nettie: After you left here, you got married?
Anne: Yes.
Nettie: What did you do after you got married—stay home?
Anne: Got a job in EJ again.
Nettie: Went back to EJ again.
Anne: Good ol’ EJ and polished shoes.
Nettie: Where did you work in EJ?
Anne: That was in Endicott.
Nettie: Where was that located?
Anne: North St.—Fine Welt on 3rd floor with all men—5 women—I polished shoes—how lucky you were.
Nettie: You polished shoes—were they ladies’ shoes or men's shoes?
Anne: Men's shoes. Harry Spry was my boss—I liked that but after I was laid off.
Nettie: How about telling about your family?
Anne: Yes, first he worked as a bed laster then he worked in the tannery—Calfskin Tannery—where he ended up.
Nettie: I think they paid more.
Anne: He liked working there—he worked nights—he did his work days and go to church. Yes, he was a religious man—
Nettie: What church did he attend?
Anne: He attended the church on Hill Ave. Sts. Peter and Paul Russian Orthodox—that's where I was baptized.
Nettie: Did you say you had a brother who was a priest?
Anne: Yes, he went up study to Paris, France—to study to be a Russian priest—Russian Orthodox religion—as they were no seminaries at that time here.
Nettie: Where is his parish located?
Anne: Lakewood, Ohio.
Nettie: Was he now—very rev—
Anne: Archpriest.
Nettie: In your immediate family—how many children do you have?
Anne: Nine children—5 brothers and 4 sisters.
Nettie: Are they all living?
Anne: One brother is not, George.
Nettie: After you married—how many children did you have?
Anne: 3 girls.
Nettie: You are a grandma? Ann, could you tell me anything else about the work—or something comical that you can recollect?
Anne: All I know we had no streetlights. We had to walk in the dark—we had to walk to work 2 miles to get a street car—we had no boots, no scarf.
Nettie: Did you ever catch a cold, not having boots?
Anne: No, never had a cold. The furnace went out at 4 o'clock—we got up and got dressed in the cold. We never knew what luxury was so we took things as they came along, we enjoyed everything, we had a happy home life.
Nettie: Happy home life and nice parents—
Anne: Right—we always got along. My father used to always say, “I'm wealthy because I got a good family and good health.”
Nettie: I think it is very true. If you have money and no health—that's not good.
Anne: He always made the sign of the cross before he left the house.
Nettie: People from that generation were very religious.
Anne: When he was dying he tried to get oxygen, he tried to bless himself, we didn’t know what he was doing but he was taking oxygen off and he was blessing himself.
Nettie: And he was always good to everyone—everybody liked him.
Anne: I remember him some—I can 't remember him too much.
Nettie: Anne, your husband ran a bakery, tell me about it.
Anne: We bought the bakery, it used to be Perl Bakery and we took it over—North Side of Endicott (Squires Ave.) and we built up and got all the Grand Union Stores—the bakery was run down at that time when we got it we built it up. My husband had to go to work to the bakery and stay inside. If the baker did not show up he had to stay inside and bake the bread, rolls and everything was going all over, he had to go help—he had 2 or 3 hours sleep a lot of times. It was pretty tough starting until we got situated but it was hard during the Depression because we couldn't buy anything. It was hard but we still got going. It was hard to get bakers and supplies—but we managed and then after—I worked—
Nettie: You worked in the bakery?
Anne: I iced the cakes—120 cakes a day I iced—I like the back work we got along pretty good until—after a while we [caught] some of them stealing and taking stuff which then after couldn't take any more of the business. I told him, ""Let's just give up."" And a lady gave me a hard time with a cake and she said, “I don't like the roses, I want them pinkish.” I got so nervous, went in the house and locked the bakery. And my husband came home and asked, ""What happened to the bakery?"" “Locked it,” because she gave me a hard time—she made me cry—she gave me a hard time so I quit. And I said, ""I want to sell it, let's get out of here."" And he said, ""Don’t let that bother you.” And that's one thing I couldn't take if I saw someone was giving me hard time, and when I saw them stealing—I couldn't take it anymore. I said it's not for us—""Let's get out of here."" My husband wasn't feeling too good already. ”I rather have you than the bakery.” So then we sold it to Roma's—now they got it. Even our bakers didn't know we sold it.
Nettie: Fast job.
Anne: They were all surprised.
Nettie: Well they probably all liked working for you.
Anne: So, Billie Shelepak worked there—still works there with Roma—he started with Perl and he is still there.
Nettie: He is an accomplished baker.
Anne: I guess so—he likes the bakery business.
Nettie: Did you do any of the baking?
Anne: No, my husband was a salesman, not a baker. He used to go on the truck and deliver—come in and help out when a baker did not show up—never gave a notice—just don't come in.
Nettie: Did he know how to make bread?
Anne: They had to show him and he would do it and I would do etc., bookwork—and whatever the salesman came in—I would either order or tell them George came home. But I saw George was going downhill fast and I couldn't·see it.
Nettie: You mean he wasn't feeling good?
Anne: No, he was run down and I couldn't see him doing it—
Nettie: It doesn't pay to have a business and money when your health is more important to you.
Anne: So, then he got a job with IBM—where he was better off—better off.
Nettie: What did he do in IBM?
Anne: He was putting in the transistors. He started as a maintenance man first and then they put him on transistors.
Nettie: Like an assembly line job?
Anne: He liked it—retired from there.
Nettie: Better he left the bakery—right? It was a pressure job—wasn't it?
Anne: Right—more of a pressure job. He was 43 when they took him in at IBM—lucky to get in at that age as nowadays it is hard to get in at that age. He didn't know anything—he told them but was willing to learn.
Nettie: That's what they want—a person willing to learn—
Anne: Then when he did get the job—he was rejected for high blood pressure. So he waited a year—finally got in—I always believe—if you wait and you want something real bad—the time will come you will achieve it.
Nettie: That's your philosophy.
Anne: I believe in it strongly—yeah—because we were going into Scranton one Sunday morning—when Vincent Peale was on—he said, “Just believe in something strongly and it will happen to you.” And a year later it did.
Nettie: I think Vincent Peale—he stresses positive—
Anne: Right—and I strongly believe in that—and believe and hope and things will work out.
Nettie: Anne, did you have any more recollections? You have a lot of experiences.
Anne: I just can't think—my husband had a lot of experiences on the bakery truck.
Nettie: Like what?
Anne: He delivered bread when he worked at West Side Bakery or Schwab’s—they
had the best bread in town.
Nettie: They had the best bread—
Anne: He used to deliver bread to Mrs. Rosefsky—her son is the best pediatrician today and he worked his way through selling ice cream.
Nettie: Who is this Dr. Rosefsky?
Anne: Every time my grandchild goes to him today—he always asks about their grandfather. When my granddaughter was ten she had spinal meningitis—we did not know whether she would live or die—it was either death or crippling—but thank God she pulled out and Dr. Rosefsky came to·Perkins—and Dr. Rosefsky told us there that your granddaughter will be ok. That was the best news we ever heard in a long time.
Nettie: That was a miracle.
Anne: My son in law was sick seven years ago—he had aneurysm—Thank God he is ok—which they didn't give him a chance.
Nettie: Very few people pull out of it.
Anne: So I strongly believe in something that if you believe in and hope—
Nettie: When you have faith—
Anne: Yes, you will come of it strong which way it turns. You just have to have faith—that is the only way it gets anyone going.
Nettie: I believe that too—
Anne: And a man came over about 10 years after we sold the bakery and said, “I have something to tell you.” He came over and I thought maybe our books were wrong—but he said, “I have a new faith and I have to pay my debt in this world.” He said, “I took stuff from your bakery. I wasn't even a worker—I sold it in the tannery,” and he said, “Whatever I owe you—please name your price.” I said to him, “Light a candle—and that is all you owe and God Bless you and God will see the the way.”
Nettie: Isn't that amazing.
Anne: To me I think has been that way—because when you have that faith—I think HE will help you materially health wise, not money wise. And I think in a long run you are doing something doesn’t show there—but it shows in that person that you gave it to and I strongly believe in that.
Nettie: That is amazing.
Anne: That is something I'm telling you. After all these years—we had so many close shaves and every time I think, I thank God—that light is still burning for us.
Nettie: I think God gives us strength, doesn't he?
Anne: When I see what my son in law went through, what my grandchildren went through so this is the way I see life and when my time comes I think I’ll be ready because when he wants us we have to be ready and if HE puts you to a test, because a lot of these things that we have to go through.
Nettie: I think it is really a test—don't you think?
Anne: Right—it is mostly a test because my husband had so many close shaves down the hill the brakes failed—coming with that truck and he went through Susquehanna, PA, and his brakes failed and if there was anybody in the way it would have killed a lot of people—but lucky no one was there—
Nettie: Thank GOD he was OK.
Anne: So, a a window fell once on Harry L. Drive, fell off the 2nd floor and it skimmed him by a half inch—he would have killed him right away.
Nettie: So when you see and go through these things—
Anne: You know someone upstairs is watching over you and you are so close and yet you are going on. I don’t know—
Nettie: Gee Ann, you have quite a few things—I know you could squeeze a few more recollections as I know you have a lot to tell me but can't think of them, at that time.
Anne: These are all true facts that happened—how quickly things can happen, that's why I pray. I pray every day that God’s will—that what happens you have to be happy and if you live that way—try to reason—you’ll think of that before you do something.
Nettie: Anne, do you remember any incidents when you were young—had gone to school—Russian school, etc.?
Anne: When I got my job in EJ I was scared—we were all there in the room—I think about 15 girls or so—all afraid—one day one of the girls said, “Why don’t you go in? Why don't you go in?” Finally I said—my heart is pounding—I said OK—”It’s me, ok, I’m going in.” I had everything I was going to say. So I came in there and Mr. Powell was there—he still lives at Ackley Ave. (I was talking fast) I said to Mr. Powell, ""We have 9 children in the family, my father works in the tannery, he cannot afford to feed us so I have to get a job so I don’t know what I am going to do. Mr. Powell said, “You got the job.” So I went to EJ—I went on a stitching machine—I looked on the machine and 5 minutes later—I said, “I'm going home.”
Nettie: Oh come on—you could do that.
Anne: Well, I did it, I cut a couple of coupons off—the ladies helped me—they were very nice—they gave me the fancy stitch—where I stitched two pieces together to make a shoe. Well, when you saw two pieces together one side is going to be longer—I didn't know the difference—I just cut the bottom off—I couldn’t imagine what the next operation was—I wasn't working there too long—they didn't want to tell me but that was the reason they let me go. Then I worked in another place and I had to make belts—I had to turn the belt inside out, you know what you were going to have—I poked the hole on the other end—I didn't know about what to do there—so then I didn’t stay too long there—I quit. Them kind of jobs were not for me—they
were piecework—and I said, “if I get a job of piecework it's going to be on my own work—what I want do on my own. Finally I got the job at the tag department. I had to do proofreading—I liked it—no pressure—that's where I enjoyed it—that's where I quit from. At my age I think I had it—but EJ was all right—I liked it at the end. And when I was coming home I was crying—as I really enjoyed working there.
Nettie: After being at home all these years—raising the children—and get a work outside you enjoy it—figure you fulfilled your job at home and now you are going—
Anne: My husband wanted to quit because he wanted to go to Florida with him so I told him I’d do anything he wanted to—so I quit. And I cried all the way, missed the girls—and left everybody I liked.
Nettie: This was when your husband retired and you retired.
Anne: After a month we went to the cafeteria in IBM, the man—asked if you like retirement—no—and he went back to work on his old job and after three months—he said, “No—I'm going to retire.” Nobody ever got that because he got the first check—he was jealous of the job of garbage man because he always worked—he was hardworking—he couldn’t see sitting home when I was working. So I have to quit—because I don’t know what would happen—so he told me to quit—now we both retired and living the life of riley and enjoy everything and everyday cause you don’t know when the last day will be.
Nettie: Well, Anne, this was interesting—and thank you very much.
",,,,"33:37 Minutes; 11:26 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Anne Spisak",,,,1977-12-29,,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Spisak, Anne -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Cigar industry; General Cigar Factory; Perl Bakery","2016-03-27 ",,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8e7709b092132f8f6e285cef3b3916dc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d8b42753c3ce00a2e209a5af7e948623.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bfe31df333f605397f76bd1dfa2bdb01.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0461f8924fdb68e7a927d0d8b0358905.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6cb9c52bc9c60dd90428828a50c6c4d0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/71722b3fcafeba7003cd957558fb3d72.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/114055c6ba89a89bffc32ebab6bab935.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a236819127dbb7ec277f525a159b1878.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d672fa7cea601c6b9ef3f72047e5b967.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/20a3c29047711a1dfa6aa96384eac7b9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b9f2b4142851478187ff9037ef2d6375.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dfa43b180b7299eb91e97aa34f15a4d5.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b589a350a95d010d8a8f84248da28c66.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a67cb0fbaae756018beee4b475732ff9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4aacde13a06585be8ac527d01acc06ed.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6f2e38eb76986bdc0dbf06e3952f1f07.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6d484f009306c921a35592b748f9ffd4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65cf9a9f55db35fbc51f1e65ca7ef992.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f04b7f1d234423c3a5354161fc817eb7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a779f408a073eaf2b58cb043376ba3fc.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d302ecc73f0bc16f3ff56daa36226498.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f28d915ce655ddeb7ce21398381606dd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f492c07e5f4238a6508a2ee9039a348c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bb23ca81afa10bb7a1b6446c9b314cca.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0a93bdd4d97af5cafc7cf92e9f290d3b.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 543,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/543,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Frank J. Tedeschi ",,,,"audio/mp3 ","Tedeschi, Frank J. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Grocers -- Interviews ","Frank Tedeschi speaks about his upbringing in Endicott, NY and later works as a local grocer, inheriting the business from his father. He describes the various types of exotic and imported foods sold at the grocery. He details traditions and recollections from Italian people, as well as, his political experiences on the Village of Endicott Board of Trustees. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 59 ",,"Politylo, Nettie ","Tedeschi, Frank J.",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Frank J. Tedeschi
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Date of interview: 31 January 1978
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Frank J. Tedeschi of 327 Hill Ave., Endicott, NY on Jan. 31, 1978. Well, Frank, will you start with some of the recollections when your mother and dad came from Italy and reasons for coming for coming here?
Frank: Ok, my dad, Joseph, came from Albrobello which is the province of body Italy back in 1908—back to New York City, of course, and went to a small community called West Winfield, near Utica, New York. And there upon hearing about the Endicott Johnson factories there, they came to Endicott where he got a job in Endicott Johnson in the early 1900s. Prior to that, he married my mother who had come from Italy about one year after he did and they had their first child in West Winfield near Utica, my sister, Florence. She was approximately year old when they moved to Endicott. After being in EJ for number of years they opened up their first business on front of Oak Hill Ave. and at that time was called Green St. which is now known as Watson Blvd in 1907 er—1917. From there they moved to Odell Ave, 215 Odell Ave., had a store there and then they bought the property where it stands now—corner of Odell Ave. and Watson Blvd. 101 Odell Ave, that was back in 1919, has been there ever since. My dad had his trial and tribulations same as any immigrant at that time—not knowing the language—and few miss and miss—some of them stories being kind of in the rough—awful time can't get started in this country. The family grew, they grew with the business, of course. In 1946 he retired. At that time I took over with my sister, Florence as a partner. He was a partner, also, but he was an inactive partner, he is what you call today a silent partner in the business. Now I can stop there—you want something else—
Nettie: Now, tell us what you said about trial and tribulations—some of trials he had when he first came to Endicott Johnson, here in Endicott.
Frank: Of course, not knowing the language they were picked on by some of the colleagues called the big Irish people at that time. They picked on the Italians, Poles, Russians, Slavs and they used them as a kicking stick, you might say, for doing all the dirty jobs and got credit for them. He had three or four different jobs and finally decided he'd go into business for himself. One particular instance, he said he was going to bite one of the fellow's nose off, because he bugged him so much, he wasn't going to get violent to the degree where he was going to hurt him physically just to bite his nose. One particular instance. Just that time were many instances but I can't remember all of them, of course, it's hard to say. Meanwhile, he started a business, kind of hard for him he didn't know the language very sparingly at that time. Most of the people on the North Side were either from the Italian extraction, Slavish [Slavic], Polish or Greek. He got so he could speak a little of each language he picked up as he went along—having got by. He raised a family of ten kids—5 boys and 5 girls. I'm the oldest of the boys and the other brother of mine is in business also, in Vestal Center, my brother Marty. The time he retired he wasn't feeling too well, that's the reason why he got out of the business. He liked the business, he enjoyed meeting the people, talking to the people. And it's a pity that sometimes people don't appreciate what you do for them especially when they're in business because many many people took advantage of them. The details, of course, are too long and complicated to go into now, something like that. [to wife] —want to talk? (laughing).
Nettie: You are doing well—
Frank: Now since my sister and I took over the business in 1946, of course, the old time type of business we changed to a degree because my dad opened the store 7 o'clock every morning—closed at 9 o'clock at night—closed Friday night at midnight—closed Saturday at midnight—Sunday up to 1 or 2 o'clock in the afternoon. When we took over we closed early—we closed Sundays and holidays. We don't have that type of business. We feel it's not worthwhile sacrificing life. They had the business, they enjoyed it they worked, they enjoyed taking care of the people they knew as friends. Now our type of business today is also different what it was years ago, where it was strictly Italian, of course, now we take care of to specialities—to groups of people like Greek, Armenian, Lebanese, all types of people, Chinese, Italian, English—
Nettie: Frank, can I interrupt right now? I know that's the thing I found interesting when I was in your store—I noticed you had so many different things in your store—I looked all over for a special kind of wheat and I found it in your store? What other things do you have in your store that the Armenians, Greek—specialty kind of things?
Frank: The kind of wheat, I believe you wanted, was cracked wheat—called bulgur—OK—then we have buckwheat groats, also which for the Russian, Polish people, Slavic people, which not many people handling it in the area. Some of the other items that the Lebanese use is—mixture called—falafel which is a mixture of ground fava beans and spices—then there's the—tahini which is ground sesame oil and then there's the Greek shortening—called minerva—funny name for it—Greek shortening—came from Greece—special wild onions called—volvoí packed in oil and vinegar is Greek. For the Lebanese, also, we have the Lebanese spices called—mahaleb and za’atar—two special spices they’re always looking for. And pine nuts, of course, are the Greek and Italian—of course, they are going international now—pignoli nuts come from Spain. Some of the other foods, of course, are Greek cheeses—and and the Lebanese cheeses—are special cheeses in themselves. The Greek cheese is packed in brine—some of them—Lebanese cheese are a basket cheese—Russian cheese used at Easter time—used to put in their baskets to be blessed—yeah—ok—some of the other items I, of course, imported Italian foods that we have—which hard to find—the St. John bread, we used to call—dried bananas at one time, carobs—we call—real name—are from Portugal—3 or 4 varieties of figs—Turkish figs, Greek figs, California figs—dried form or string form—then we have a variety of many other foods such as dried garbanzo lentils, things like that are dried legumes.
Mrs. Tedeschi: Greek pastries too.
Frank: Yeah, of course, the Greek pastry—which are the phyllo leaves from the prepared Greek pastry, which is called tiropita, spanakopita. We have the dessert, the sweet stuff, baklava which is very delicious. We also have a variety of Far Eastern breads—leavened breads which is called ma’arouk—then we have sesame bread which is flat leavened bread which is Lebanese and Armenian type of bread—then we have the folded dough—folded dough used for pizzas. These are some of the items we have. We have some others, of course.
Nettie: Sounds interesting! I didn’t realize you had that many.
Frank: We have all types of imported kind of candy, spumoni, terrone—we have chocolates. We have imported cherries and brandy, butter cakes which are called qatayef—brandy or rum.
Nettie: I didn’t realize you had all that.
Frank: We also carry a variety of porcelain goods such as demitasse cups and sets (demitasse) and we have large spaghetti bowls of all sizes, have different type vegetable strainers, meat choppers and sausage makers for home use.
Nettie: What are some of your recollections of the Italian People? You know, some of the customs—that would be interesting—
Frank: As far as the eating habits are concerned?
Nettie: Well, eating habits, maybe some of your customs—holidays—
Frank: Well your Christmas Eve customs in the Italian line are the fact they have to eat, or not have to—but the custom to eat 21 different types of food. In other words—mostly non-meat items, Christmas Eve. Usually they have 7 or 8 or 9 varieties of fish, cooked different ways, different kinds of vegetables, nuts, cheeses, different kinds of wines, beverages of all kinds, of course, to get loaded—have to have alkaseltzer (Laughing). Of course, the traditional Italian fish which is a dried codfish, baccalà which comes whole, which it comes boneless or skinless which has to be freshened soaked day or two, soaked 3-4 days with the bone in—then there's a Swedish stockfish, also is original Italian dish mostly for people from Calabria—lower Italy—Calabria, town which is on lower end of the boot of Italy, they eat that fish—it is very expensive this time of year—$6.50 a pound—that what they asked for two weeks ago.
Nettie: Is it a salty fish?
Frank: Very strong aroma—some people call disastrous—has a very distinct odor to it. Those all traditional—people fish—that they eat—want. Also, there are English pilchard, called—aringa—which is a smoked dry sardine which is also a traditional type of fish and the dry smoked herring—(put a jug of wine) after you eat a couple fish which you would be thirsty. Something, like the Russian people have their pickled salt herring - the Italian people have their dry smoked herring called aringa. Of course, the Italian spaghetti sauces, numerous different kinds of spaghetti sauces with the Italian seasonings and cheeses from Italy, called romano pecorino—
Nettie: What was that?
Frank: Romano pecorino—which mean—made from sheep's milk—pecorino means sheep's milk—pecora means, means “sheep” in Italian. Now the people in northern Italy which are the Piedmonti's people, citizens of northern Italy they use the parmigiano cheese—parmesano—is strictly from cow's milk. They don't like the sharp violent cheese—that cheese is mostly for white sauces and cream sauces—types of spaghetti—made from piselli—for example use butter, use parmesano cheese, but to make piselli fettuccelle use romano cheese.
Nettie: Never heard of those—that sounds good—though—
Frank: Different types. And of course we have the variety of Italian olives—some consider Italian, some consider Greek, we used to have them in barrels, now they come in plaster tubs, about 30-40 each—they have a flavor of their own, don't compare with the ripe olive different taste to them—there is a Sicilian type, there is a Greek type.
Nettie: Is that right? I didn't realize that.
Frank: There are varieties of olives—those we specialize in them, also. Now the other strictly Italian food that we find in our place which I don't believe, of course, the English and American people, well I haven't seen the Russian or Slovak person buy, that's cornmeal—used for cornmeal mush, polenta—that's called in Italian.
Nettie: I think I had that in Spain.
Frank: It is cooked and boiled down in water and you put a sauce over it, with homemade meatballs or homemade sausage—my wife eats the corn and I eat the sausage—but that's also a strictly Italian. In this country they used to make, you know, muffins or fritters, things like that. There's strictly polenta—which is cornmeal mush—made with rich tomato sauce. Others, are of course, you know is pasta and beans and pasta and lenticchie which is lentils, pasta and ceci ceci which is chick peas.
Nettie: All kinds of foods, I imagine you are a cook from what you are talking about—
Frank: You know, I give lot of women a lot of recipes—I never cooked any in all of my life.
Nettie: Is that right?
Frank: I know the ingredients are and how to cook them, because I've seen them cook in our house. Alright, what else should we talk about?
Mrs. Tedeschi: About hospitality—
Nettie: I would say—all these things—all this is interesting.
Mrs. Tedeschi: —the way they were.
Frank: The way they are—they are—still are—the foreign people, the people coming from Europe, we also are a nationality, are a lot more hospitable—than the people of this country are.
Nettie: Yes, yes.
Frank: You walk in a Italian home, or Slavic home or a Greek home and if they are eating dinner they will insist you sit down and eat with them, otherwise they would be insulted. If they don't have anything, middle of the afternoon, they will insist on putting on a pot of coffee, take out some cookies or cake or something.
Nettie: It's very true.
Frank: Those are things we find that the active people, the Italian people, the Slavic, the Polish people are very, very famous for. They are also, very persistent, asking you to sit and join them.
Nettie: Yes, very much so.
Mrs. Tedeschi: Yes, they are.
Frank: You know the traditions we had in the past every once in a while, I think about it. They're forgotten. The younger generation don't know anything about it.
Nettie: That's what I'd like to have—
Frank: OK—back years ago, now we’re having Palm Sunday coming and Easter Sunday with Lent, our parish priest, at that time, would go around on Palm Sunday and bless the homes with his holy water—along and his assistant and a altar boy carrying the holy container to bless the homes. That particular priest that we had here, used to stop, how he did it I don't know to this day, stop and eat everyplace he went. He usually would go around, you know, at meal times, you know at about twelve to one o'clock, everybody—sitting at the table—eat something for about five or ten minutes—then they would question him all over again—you could tell by looking at him he enjoyed it. Those are some of the traditions that are gone—we miss—and back, even days before television, before radio, before restaurants, and beer gardens we have today—it used to be more of a family affair—
Nettie: It's true.
Frank: Families used to get together and enjoy themselves—sit, talk, chat, eat and drink, play cards—that was really happy occasions to play cards when you bring a bottle of wine—the old fellows, us kids used to watch and we were chased off to bed.
Nettie: True.
Frank: But those are missing now, now everybody has got their own new world, they live in. Now I come home, as tonight, watch television for two or three hours and go to bed. That didn't happen before—before you would talk with the family, I'd visit my sister, my brother would visit me—I'd visit my dad—that type of thing—that's missing today.
Nettie: That's too bad, too.
Frank: Then the old feast days are gone—the atmosphere is gone like when they celebrate St. Joseph's or St. Anthony's or St. Cosmo’s one of those things, St. Mary's. They'd have their procession down the street. Saints, bands—5 o'clock in the morning they'd wake you up with their fireworks—ups! it's time to get started you know, then they get end up for the affair, they had at night, food, drink and everything else involved. Those are all gone. Those are what everybody misses. As I say, things have changed, the world is changing, the people changing. I like to keep those traditions—I find, right now, though in our area here especially, we've got quite an influx of immigrants that had stopped for a while—there was a period for anyone to come in—they stopped for a while—they had quotas as they were strict to have anyone come in but the last few years they lifted—ooh—we have about 50 families, have come.
Nettie: ls that right?
Frank: Between the Italians, Slavic and some of the Russians—not too many of them—not too many Russians—guess they're not letting them out. (Laughing) They're keeping them there. But there's quite a few coming in—so traditions will remain as long as these people keep coming in the European tradition—they'll bring them here. I'm glad to see that.
Nettie: I do too—I really like to see that. It's nice to be able to enjoy those things.
Frank: Well, are there any other recollections—I do remember the parades collecting and all that—it was very interesting—of course, in those days, too, if you remember—you weren’t old enough—
Nettie: Gee—thanks—
Frank: Back, years ago before refrigeration—remember that?
Nettie: Oh, yes, I remember.
Frank: Before the 30th—the ice boxes? We had to open up the store—my dad had, in those days, anyhow, at 6 o'clock in the morning—for the factory workers who stopped to buy their lunch meat to put between two slices of bread, so that it didn't spoil during the day. They picked their lunch in the morning—that's right—walk down the street—were no such thing as cars in those days—nobody owned cars—very few people own cars—we'd walk—see all the neighbors, talked to the women—they'd have the coffee klatsches at 6 in the morning—got their washing done at 5—everybody greeted each other, everybody knew everybody else. I don't know my next door neighbors are now. Things are entirely different. Things were a lot calmer in those days. Now anybody screams—WHO CARES!
Nettie: That's right.
Frank: Before if you heard somebody yelling, you asked, “What is going on here?” So the comradeship is gone like it used to be. Now, this is what made it more interesting—seeing your neighbors—go out back—talk to them—make it interesting—get together—backyard—then you invite other neighbor—then the neighbors came over—I remember holidays—you got out—pay a visit to everybody and then you get home, you are ¾ loaded. (Laughing). Everybody has to give you a drink—all those relations are gone.
Nettie: Well, Frank, now we can go into your political life—
Frank: Well, my political life started by a fluke—really—I had no intention of ever getting involved in politics until 1956. And then again one of the village board came up with—which I thought very, very asinine idea of making the North Side—one way streets. Part being in business and being the fact we had the Fire Dept. next to the business, and the fact that our streets were narrow, I thought there isn't enough traffic to warrant one way streets. The other solution was to be—widen the streets one at a time—two at a time whenever we could afford it. Then one of the trustees came up to me and told me I was stupid—I didn't know what was going on—they were going to push it—they were going to push the one way streets. So at that time, I was head of a group of North Side Businessmen—there were roughly about 40 involved—40 Businesses. I happen to be President of the group so we went to the board meeting made—enough commotion and fussed—they forgot about the one way streets. But, directly after that, one of the fellows came home and asked me if I wanted to run for trustee—they needed somebody on the board to make a little noise occasionally. I said I was really green in politics, you know what I mean but they said I shouldn't worry about that, “we will take care of you. We'll do things for you."" OK—do things.
Nettie: If you can have some help.
Frank: Right. Then I appreciated my being in the primaries, something of 60-65 votes. The following year I ran again and I was successful in being elected—I was in for 14 years.
Nettie: Is that right? I didn't realize it was that long—
Frank: In 1968—I asked my party to run for mayor—ran against astute politician Mr. Caldwell—and I was beaten and then I ran the following year again for trustee and was elected two or three times. After that I decided I had enough politics—during the years—my wife was home alone—she missed her dolly—her husband. (Laughing). So that is enough for politics - 14 years is enough for any person to be a service to the community.
Nettie: That's a long time—of course it takes you away from home too—quite a bit.
Frank: Yes, home and away from the business, I didn't mind it—it was interesting work and I was instrumental in some of the changes in Endicott—successful ones—
Nettie: Like what?
Frank: Well, I pioneered originally for the soot control—
Nettie: What was that—sud control?
Frank: Soot control—air pollution. We were successful in getting that cleaned up. Then the pressures involved in the buying of the airport, the sewage treatment plants and some of the major improvements in the village, village parks—North Side park—swimming pool—those were all under my regime. I'm not satisfied or very happy with my regime—we made some good roads—I think the village is a good place to live. Of course, right now I could find some fault with it—some of the spots not too good—I'm used to that part of it. We've always enjoyed living in the village. In fact, we originally lived next door—next door to the store—when we first got married—my wife and I—like in 1935—we lived on 107—right over top of the EJ shoe store—at that time—we had two bedrooms—after the third child we didn't have enough room so we bought a place in Endwell—home on Hoover Street. We didn't like it up there—we came back down to North Side. After two years we sold it and bought this property right here. We're very happy with the North Side—own type of people—Italian people, Slavic—
Nettie: It's right—once you've grown with your own—
Frank: It's hard to get away from. Ever since—we will be married 43 years this year.
Nettie: Is that right? Oh my goodness—
Frank: Yep—five kids—oldest boy will be 40 years old—he's in the Post Office—second boy is out of town in Saratoga, teaching school—third girl—teaching school down here—she's married with 1 ½ kids—other daughter works in Endicott Trust Co.—Binghamton branch—youngest son is in school, yet.
Nettie: Gee, you have a fine family!
Frank: Yes, five very nice children—
Nettie: Years go by fast.
Frank: Well, in a couple of years—if you know anybody who wants to buy a good business—we'll sell it to them—I've been in it for most of my life—that's been quite a few years—will retire—
Nettie: Looking forward to retire?
Frank: Take a trip to Rotebella, maybe and see where our folks came from—where our roots began—OK.
Nettie: That sounds interesting—Frank, do you have any more recollections that you would like to add to that? It’s very interesting—am really listening with awe.
Frank: Really all I could say.
Nettie: Well, this has been very enjoyable—and I want to thank you very much.
",,,,"32:52 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Frank J. Tedeschi",,,,1978-01-31,,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Tedeschi, Frank J. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Endicott (N.Y.); Grocers -- Interviews; Italians; Politics",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2e518e208d685ab02bf32ae0ed51a5a6.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/421602d24558254a9f915554dbbb5762.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3e0edc7d54bddf28b1f1ab48682a5d6d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a7799350200fb26681ea6230bdc80ef4.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/df5d3bafdc9f067f683ac78a2771cdc8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8e2403181dfa4a7218d3ce3f9dcd78bb.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9a45a8b39cfc92ca6334f13c18cfda91.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dc3f462f5c78514427bd5714b6fe8649.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f95d263d72175a40287d75534d3bf6d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/862060132d66bb8a9716337245805d1c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4ed113df3f410ab340ebcd7737ea8430.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1ca5ceda8929a8200564f463134c1e18.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/efcfde26885d2c1d7d0ab7fc0e582197.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e271fab74a98bde383db7520be8c43ad.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/47ea422eecc020c97febf9d8ef12c8ec.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/eef37014125cc289d95cfaa0baff503d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c5f38302ac29be3ec30c243fe324d8fa.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e4bed51b0e4609d8762de7889c9a8b80.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/53f66c8f3251f3f9bf6b0932359cddf0.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 545,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/545,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with John Warski ",,,,"audio/mp3 ","Warski, John -- Interviews; Austria; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Jessup (Pa.); Endicott (N.Y.); Immigrants -- Interviews; Carpenters -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; House construction ","John Warski talks about his interest in carpentry as a young boy after emigrating to the U.S. in 1907 from Austria, and going to Jessup, PA. He describes finding his way in a new country on his own and finding working in the boiler room at a factory where he shoveled coal into the boiler. He tells of leaving to go work in Endicott as a carpenter, and later at Endicott Johnson. He also discusses building his home. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 62 ",,"Politylo, Nettie ","Warski, John ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: John Warski Sr.
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Date of interview: 16 November 1977
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to John Warski Sr. of Cafferty Hill Rd., Endicott, New York on Nov. 16, 1977. Mr. Warski let us start at the beginning when you arrived in America.
John: I came this country–-Beginning from little boy, something.
Nettie: Yes, you can start at that time.
John: Well when I was a little boy I was interested little bit in carpentry job. We had a little farm, not much. I can't make a living from that, my father dead in job, what they call Carpo now, he go to work over there they been 1907.
Nettie: You came to this country in 1907?
John: Yes I come in 1907. I come to this country in 1907. My father go to work over there and they kill him in job. I comes over here landed go through Bremen, Germany and landed in Baltimore. From Baltimore they bring us grandchildren, four or five, six people together they come to Pennsylvania, Olyphant.
Nettie: Excuse me, did you come to Baltimore by train or boat?
John: Oh, we came by boat—ship.
Nettie: Did you go to Ellis lsland first?
John: No, Baltimore they got Casa Garda in building. New York is different what they call Casa Garda, Baltimore is different. Comes over here brings in May 1907. We go together to Olyphant—those people they have father and cousin over there but I have address to my cousin in the Jessup next place over there. They get out of Olyphant. I go out with them too. I don't know nothing too much about it…how it goes. They go find those people their cousin and when they found out so I get different address I not belong to them. I take a walk about one mile from Olyphant they show me where to go up to Jessup. When I come to the Jessup I walk by the railroad tracks come to Jessup and sit on the bench between the bushes and grass—been thinking—what am I going to do? What am I going to ask for? You know what it is. Then I see man walking by the railroad track inspect the track they got hammer and wrench. I look over there well recognize he been from my village, he work on that track over there. He look on me that I sit over there he don't know me—he know me old country all right been me—been working for the priest been neighbor of the priest. Then after while he looked willow and I starting to call the name Mike! Mihal! Mihal! See I don't know the language, nothing. He stop, look, look stop and start to go again…I start holler again to by the name—he start I started to come to him and he started to come to me, we get together just been in front house where he been living—he rented house by the tracks. I told him who I am—he been surprised what I doing over here. I explain that few people they take up in Olyphant but my address been over here—they tell me to use what got address—I had address fellow been my mother's sister's husband his name Orayko. Well then comes there he takes me in a house he been married been village across river just like Susquehanna that woman been come from there… Well I take wash up every morning come from old country they have to wash themselves wash—all kinds of people, you know. She give me eat this, this. After while that cousin I have address to him he come from work. He live same house just other people rented boarding over there. When they come from work he find out I was over there and he come to me started to talk this, that—then he go to store, buy me some clothing—little bit cheap clothing so—I don't have just—what I had on myself, some shoes like that. Then in about 2 days he ask the boss about the job for me for the breaker, breaker that big building—so breaked the dumped coal in big lumps and when they break in pieces they screen it—they call it breaker, coal breaker. I get a job over there to pick slate—see they got of place. Sitting over there they keep the hands down—chute go down got little bench—piece board over there they keep their feet like that when (pold) roll down—see something—try they got another chute for the rock. I work there 10 hours a day I think so 9 hours a day. $1.00 on a day, yeah. I been working for little while and I ask that cousin, I come to him—figure like same job only different factory—dumped different type of rock. I ask him been needed man for the driver up the colander dump where they dump all rock they give me that job over there for the driver. I been working over there two to three years, maybe 2 years I don't know something like that before I started again to pick slate. I don't know how long that happened maybe one year something like that—I changed the jobs so on the rock. Then after while I don’t know how long I work the breaker burned down. No job. Been working at home. I have to do something. I have two guys been working in a paper mill near Watertown, Dexter, New York near Canada. I wrote a letter and they tell me come on up and maybe you will get a job there. So I come and two days later over there I look around I come later—I had friends and they take me on the board from my village and I wrote to him. I get up in the morning been living by the paper mill, by the factory. I just go there look it over how they make the paper so interesting. I asked them first should can I go inside—yeah, you go in there—nobody bother you. Take a look inside the shop. Then I saw some kind of guy—sport— well find out he been superintendent of that shop. He talk to me and asked—well that happened later, he talked to me and make ask—""You look for job?"" Yeah. “Well come afternoon sometime tell me sometime in afternoon, then you come get your job.” I said, all right. Well then he go for a little while, well, half hour—well you better start tomorrow morning. All right—I come tomorrow morning ask—he look, look on me and don't say nothing. I ask him for what happened to my job you promised me yesterday? “Oh! I forgot it—” Well he give job to work down in the basement with water been in machine, lots to explain. Then after while l work I don't know how long I work, I been interesting been recognizing the building the fireman. I like look lots time how they work—Italian Jew boss engage on the boiler, that's all. Just the boss. Then I ask if you remember get the job get another boss in the same company, see. This factory where I go different building. They give me job, said you take the job if you want it. Well then—I want to wheel coal or ashes from the boiler—see they push cart inside boiler, they got regular tracks, open door coal run down, sometimes fireman when visit somebody gets close to boiler, if far away have shovel to them. Then clean fire, put ashes on pile—I have to take the wheelbarrow, my job to wheel like on a dump, other side of boiler. Then I work while I plan how the fireman throw the coal, how they look interesting. Then after a while been chance I ask the boss, I like fireman head per man—headman run all the business and helper get busy, too, work to do. Then after while chance coming somebody quit, something like that, they give me job, helper. I started fireman, started fireman work for little while, I don't know how long, I can't explain, never keep track of maybe year or something like that they been fireman, head man quit. They give me job—head man. So I have to know what start water pump, fill those tanks have outside the hill—they got lots of things, you know. They got to take care of boiler, clean the boiler inside. Every Sunday, I take every second Sunday you got to got go inside the boiler, drain water out, coal out, put cold water something like that… I been thinking this way—Well little while—two guys they telling that paper mill over there—they been working there—they quit—work Bridgeport, Conn.—Bridgeport, Conn.—the shipyard work. They wrote the letter—I think so I going to try it—maybe I'll get a job. I quit over there and go to Bridgeport, Conn. Well, I find some Russian lady from Russia, they board over there—I find board. Next day so I go to shipyards, well, when I come over there, there is a line people that with the tools, everything, carpenter, short wait for the job. Boss coming in the line just take maybe one or two, call us— look what he got, this and that and after while said—no job no more. Everybody pick up tools, mad, swear like hell. (chuckle) Well, I go out—he never ask me even and I go home where I been boarding over there—I think so no use staying over here. Might as well go back to Dexter. When I come back I remember it was like Decoration Day, I see it in Bridgeport—make the parade on Decoration Day. See I don't know what it been, I just know it was Decoration Day. And I come back to Dexter—I ask for job—they give me job for the other boiler room. The company have lot of factory not so far—maybe good size—the block away. They make a clear type of paper—the other one they make a rough paper—something like that. They give me the job for the helper—they wheel coal, yes, that's right, wheel coal just the same thing like before and said you going to get chance you going to get that job. And so some guy somebody going to quit job, helper, been quit, he don't want to work or something I don't know—he put me like helper. That fireman I before work in coal little bit I have change fireman sitting I took the shovel and I throw it, coal, shut the doors, I train myself. He show me how. He like me and he do something so he talked to night watchman been German ‘cause change every week, different shift, one week daytime and one week night time. He told something against those helpers say he don't want to work don't care much to working so he put me on there. One time the helper no come no more, they get fired. I don't know anyhow he no come no more. Last time I work with the helper, last time I work with the helper then those firemen get sick or something, I get head fireman. I been work 2 years or something like that. One time I get argument with the boss with the boiler room, ah, Jessup on account of big pipe—lift those clinkers what they call them they get banded too much to explain—I have on my mind to quit. To come to Endicott—then I quit them over there—I came to Endicott. In Endicott I got work with that carpenter. I don't know his name forgot his name he used to build those Burt Building contractor. So before that he work on houses living by the river, Susquehanna, few houses. After while we started build house get contract to build Cibulsky on Rogers Ave. See The Endicott Lumber Box Co. Make the contract The Box Co. make the contract on Saturday and about middle week U.S. declare war for the Germany.
Nettie: What year was that?
John: Oh, old country, yeah, U.S. declare war and they just start war business. Then I get job right away with the Box Co. He give me work he give me job carpenter so I work with Cibulsky house, Shefchuk house, and Prosmans… Besides working on other houses way up on other houses where the park (possibly Rabble Ave) pausing—thinking….That all right all right—somebody start talking about IBM—IBM they had just only had one building from that time had little building—supposed to be call ITR. I just try for the luck, so might get it job there. I ask for carpenter job there because IBM make clocks there. I go to office ask them there said maybe you get job but boss on vacation. Come back. You take the job, take anything to get inside, before boss come maybe they could show you job you ask for. I take the job where some kind of parts on machine on little machine they bend it you know. Work a little while then move (spare)—so IBM soon gonna pretty soon close it you know—no business—IBM—no IBM but I—well—Think so like that so I go to EJ—tannery. Before that I worked in the tannery too—forgot to mention see. But I get back the same job in tannery. Little by little IBM started to build up—but that too late.
Nettie: Who was your boss in the Tannery?
John: Where, EJ? Griffis just name I forgot but been old man but his son been boss too, foreman Lee Griffis I guess, I think so Lee. I work little while there sometime dinnertime had chance to go to boiler room over there to look around—I interesting in the fireman—all the time. I go over there to look around—been short U.S. take all men then for the war. Already they have been short. Asked boss about the job. He said here take this job, maybe few days, maybe so wheel ashes and coal and then I put you for regular fireman—they fire by the shovel at the time then after while they those put automatically. Then I started to work later two days or few weeks I don't know in the boiler room, one time I get sick a little bit—this had flu—start people get the flu—
Nettie: Is that the influenza?
John: Yes influenza, yes. I don't come to work—nobody been tell the boss, so I no show up—I been living at that new houses on Rogers Ave. See he come in the house—boss engineer room engine and the boiler, forgot his name. And said what is the matter? You sick? Yeah, feel been sick little bit not much well feel little bit. He said please if you can come to work—ain't got no men—all men been over there they take in the army be working on that job. Next day I come back to work. I came to work. I come back back to work until war was over. War was over that man on his job come back and put that man on his job on my place. They put me wheeling coal. I don't want it. Wheeling coal, I quit. I quit and then after a while I did not know what I did.
Nettie: After the boys came back from service?
John: From service yeah, same fella, they got job back.
Nettie: So where did you work?
John: I can remember—I guess I work spare time, carpenter and you know lots of steam heat-plumbing but I know little bit. Then I forget the track where I work.
Nettie: Where did you live? Did you live with Cibulsky?
John: Yeah, I boarded up to Cibulsky—yeah—then war over—about year or year a half something like that—I take my wife over here and I move it up stairs—remember?
Nettie: Yeah.
John: I renter up there.
Nettie: Your wife came from Europe. Did you get married here or over there?
John: Ha! I got married in the old country. In old country before they said maybe I come second time over here—I forgot to mention—see when I come at 22 years—happen have 3 classes to join the army—Austria—I come from Austria. But then, after a while Poland taken—taken that—wife come from Poland because they Polish people, their country. So, I suppose to come before draft, last time, third time, two time no pass but third time pass—if no pass—you can marry—been low all the time. I couldn't come before third—finish it. They draft me to Army—Austria—well no call me—well I come I have to report to village right away. Next day I wait for call—they call me next year for doctor's like that.
Nettie: You were in America when they called you?
John: Over there old country. When time times got letter to go to doctor—to visit—they draft me that time and in fall or beginning spring. In the Fall they call me to doctor—to army. I been in army 12 months, no 12 weeks—you know why—the other way be 3 years. I make claim exemption—what they call—I make support—mother—They had village secretary they have to care few villages like that—she got voice—""a pull""—yeah, a pull—you just have to go for the training—something if happen bad you have to go just the same. They gave me release. When I come back—I marry after. I leave wife 9 months.
Nettie: Then you came with Mrs. Warski to Endicott—is that right? Mrs. Warski and you came back to Endicott after married in Europe?
John: Come to Rogers Ave.
Nettie: How did you find the village there—not many houses in Endicott or buildings?
John: Well, Cibulsky’s—North Side—no be many.
Nettie: How about downtown, fire station—on Washington Ave.?
John: They have State Bank—fire station—Endicott Trust Co.—fireman—fire—
Nettie: Did they have many stores on Washington Ave.?
John: When I come from Binghamton on a train—come from old country second time—I be mention to go back to paper mill—remember—yeah, after while I have little little argument with boss so I quit. I have in mind to come over here—I came to Binghamton—from Binghamton take street car to Endicott to Cibulsky’s—living up there. The street car—I told you I go old country back. In street car nothing—just street car—farms, farms, nothing—Johnson City—just little bit houses. I come to Endicott some places—lots of many have sidewalks from the boards—some places have no sidewalks, at all—No (greens). Come to Cibulsky’s rented house on Odell Ave.—they use have Greek Ice cream parlor, Trubach—they make a suit. Cibulsky—I lived up there—kitchen upstairs and two small rooms—Schuler live been with wife, have kids already—John been already there. (Chuckling) They put couch in the kitchen by the stove—he sleeping there, Cibulsky. When I got job with carpenter—I make in few different places—you know, Burt Store—you know they started before I worked there. Then we start talking about houses—Cibulsky, she say, “John, please talking maybe built house because he go away and spend money all the time.” “All right, I gonna try.” One time I talk to him, I say you make house, that no good. Well, if you want I help you. I told him—maybe give him money—I did not mention I gonna borrow money—but I help you. Then we start talk ‘bout plans and houses and lot. No place to build house. He work in Calfskin Tannery that time—I work in boiler room—no, I don't yet—that all right—I don't work in EJ yet—I work in Box Co. building houses—he said he didn't want go go to Sales Building to lawyer asking about lot—give it free.
Nettie: Gave lots to workers free?
John: Yeah. Sure! Well he says he don't want to go—just told me—just go take a lot—ask for lot. I go and they never ask me, “you work over here or not?” No lawyer ask me. They give me lot by the lot by the Miszaks—Squires Ave… When we start making contract—Box Co. ask for the lot. We give them deed told them where that lot is—he go Sales Building—Box Co. after we come back—later we get letter that lot somebody use it—ain't got no lot. They make plans for house already—just to build the house. They go ask Sales Building to ask to give you another lot. I go Sales Building—I told him—I told him something like that—you give lot to somebody else. They give Rogers Ave—They say Warski, you want that—that is the only place on all Rogers Ave.—they have no sewer but pretty soon they have sewers. We take that where house stands and they start to build that house and I get that job over there—I ask them—I work over there on that house.
Nettie: When did you work in the tannery—after you built houses?
John: Yeah, after while when they finish the building—something—Box Co. don't have no job—stop the building—so I go to tannery. Then I get fireman that man after while that man come from—I take his place—here I mentioned before. Well I go take—he take—to my job on machine inside tannery. Well, I work until—all you know how it happened—cut out—closed—no more tannery, there.
Nettie: No more tannery? What?
John: IBM they got.
Nettie: Now, but am I talking about before that?
John: I working ‘til pretty soon near finish—I go to retire—before—
Nettie: Before you retired, you did not finish telling me about the time before you were building houses, all? When did your wife come—
John: After that? Came from Europe.
Nettie: And you had your own home on Roosevelt Ave?
John: My wife come in Rogers Ave. We live it already there—I rent upstairs and I paid board downstairs. Then I tell been in the hall—my wife—we live during winter time, we don't want to move it—people, see, I gonna move it out in spring, this people move out and I move it upstairs.
Nettie: Did you have electricity, then, in the house?
John: In Rogers Ave.—yes and then when I live it with Cibulsky come late—this and this—I don't want to talk over there about it—you know how it is—decided might as well build own house, have lot already. I hire contractor, dig cellar, put concrete wall, (petition), everythings I do myself, not myself, Cibulsky help me. Somebody else, somebody—some friend help me, plasterman—I have electricity, too well, all finishing work inside I do myself. I work in tannery, night time. Spare time I work house myself. I have no electricity that time like Rogers Ave.
Nettie: What did you use for electricity?
John: I use, borrow Pizur lamp go fishing before I get my electric. Then I put plumbing heat myself, some little help, myself.
Nettie: What church did you attend?
John: Well when I comes over to Endicott they have no church, they have Roman Catholic, I been board with Slavic people and they belong that Slavic church and she started, the lady, “What doncha come—to one time—big bunch of men go Sunday church.” Well, we say we try the church—we understand nothing—I do what they do, that's all. We come to here in Binghamton we go to Baxter Street one time and then I come to Endicott—they have there Cibulsky, was there—I started to go Endicott church.
Nettie: Many families or very few familes when you went there?
John: Those (Hrodenski) they no like - you know.
Nettie: Where they Carpo-Russians?
John: No—from Russia—those from Hrodenski gubernia—no can explain—they don't like to go church much and they—we—mostly mostly those (oohorski)—Carpo-Russians—they ruin that church that time—the be boss that church that time—they after while they split. They call meeting, lawyer come, they make a splitting, they have 4 or 5 lots where school is—front of church and half cemetery—they’re take those lots.
Nettie: Who took the lots?
John: The Carpatho-Russians. See, they have safe—the Carpatho-Russians—those oohorski—like this something—they, Russian put make red ink.
Nettie: When do they mean red mark?
John: They mark something difference—last heard that, I never see that—they no explain they go to court, supposed to be go to court. That time, Russian priest been Borisoff—he had safe, small safe, in church now. He knows lock in safe and book, Bible, book record, by law.
Nettie: Book of By-Laws?
John: Yes, he look everything been side—Carpatho-Russian this side no good. Something like that. Take that book—destroy it—that priest—put someplace in the fire. They changed lock in safe and when come open it—you want to open it—try open—they open—they can't open—the leaders—they take those safe to court and courtroom open safe to show proof who boss. (Chuckling) And when come to court, open safe—hire somebody—I never been there—I don't know—then open it, was been surprised—nothing there—they find no record—no record—given to Russian—got be Russian, go away somewhere. After a while got to take safe back to church—I got motorcycle, side car, I take the safe in sidecar.
Nettie: Did you put the safe in sidecar?
John: I put safe in sidecar and was so heavy that pressed down and take back house.
Nettie: Church was built—did they say—about monks built the church?
John: Build church, like mostly cheap way, like shack, plaster like that—they don't have nothing much—have have (prestol)—built from the boxes like that—(this part in Russian—translation) lector reads below—the priest Rashtakoff had a book on instructions—he read up on it which told how the altar table should be built. That is difficult—this way, this way, put the top on (ha! ha!) make something like this—then monks hire from monastery—they build the bell and iconostasis—the iconostasis they build but posts—suppose to be—they make different—they have saw and hammer they got—they hire 2 men from Binghamton to make—do that—iconostasis—they just make post—no tsarski dverior royal doors—just opening—then I—left—they left—no finish, complain, don't make no money. Then I think to myself—I make the tsarski dveri—royal doors in garage Rogers Ave. Those posts—come plaster paris—those posts come—they design—they have to make hollow—that caps—lots of work—bottom have to be filled—inside cap hollow—some kind fit to even up—take time. Then I look around—new church—not much old church—repairs—bell—leaking around closet—
Nettie: What year new church started?
John: I think 1914—1916 been already.
Nettie: When you talk of your house, how much to build your house fifty years ago?
John: I never keep track because I do work myself—somebody help me—little bit I make checks to pay for material—just like that—pay cash—never keep track—never bother to keep track. One time have time to figure how much cost—I lost and forgot about it.
Nettie: How many children did you have?
John: Three children. When retire from EJ—66 years—I work—wait when my wife get pension—65 years old.
Nettie: Did your wife work?
John: No, she work in house—she get half—I had 66 years—77—89 years now.
Nettie: After your wife died then you sold your home?
John: I live there pretty near 10 years alone—sold 2 years ago.
Nettie: Do you live with your son and daughter in law at present?
John: Yes.
Nettie: Were you glad you came here instead of living in Europe?
John: I was glad to be get here what I have there—I got to work for somebody else just like I get eat twice a day—and 30 and 40 cents a daytime. Just like I come first like come go back to old country before—I try it I make one of those carpenter job business, in the house. I figure I work on the land for somebody—I want to make some money.
Nettie: Where, here or there?
John: Here. And where (spotty) work—I make those furniture—somebody in village give me make table, bed anything like that. I had neighbor work wagon make wheel—wagon—they call it—he know I handy—he need help. He said learn those things. He been good mechanic—hell of lot better than I, needs work on wagon—business then make table something, like that. Better come to help me—3 years—learn make wheel.
Nettie: Like an apprentice?
John: Yeah. This is better—you make table—something like that—he had store—little store, too—had a farm—little big farm—he can get—take so many jobs—he good mechanic—want to push for that thing it away—people waiting for—You learn it. You have better trade. Then I get neighbor—about block away—when come to work, eat sleep that's all—all right. I have my own bench. When I come to this country—I have been—brothers—they have somebody use—they need repair I make them new one—make new one—sometimes old one they throw away—bench take his house—he got his own if he have time—he got to work on farm—I come—first he show me—he give me job with a knife—to make a spoke. First thing plane on one end—scrape—then round it—give me—came from the farm—he been working farm. Well how wheels you make it on farm—look it over—I just finish it—look it over—I just been finish and he look over and said, “By gosh, you been make than I.” Then—this, this. I stay 3 months—finish my job—times come—I learn my job—I had just time—times come in—I go this country—have no change to work. Besides here I travel, Bridgeport. I forgot to mention—I don't like that job—I can't get into shipyards. I forget—I take walk in street—see sign “Wheel Wright”—make wagon repair. Like that sometime horses pull wagon—wheel go broke—take shop and repair it. They was one German and one Irish. I look them over—there they make ‘em body, first body they see just body of bus—school drived kids—before like taxi—bodies make there—Slovak work there on this body—Body like bus—like delivery—bus big one. We started talking with Slovak we mention—he asked me who I am—explain—what I did old country—this—this we need men like you over here—other man fixed wheel—sometimes broken wheel—sometimes he come to work and sometimes not. Those boss want to push him out but he afraid to push him out because no replace it—used to be got different job—see—like a regular school bus. Say, “Who want to take that job?” Said different work like old country but I fix you up—I show you—it easy—all right—you got a job. Come tomorrow—I have no clothes for that job—I loan you—you buy some. When I came those men no show up—get drunk—they never come. l work about 1 month—have no place to board—sleep like dog—any place—I no like it—I quit. I don’t want—I can’t eat, got to restaurant—something like that went—so many people in Bridgeport because they shipyard—so many workers over there. They say—I tell Slovak—try again—make me restaurant—boarding house—something like that—I take the boarding house—I have nothing left for me. What have nothing pay? I quit. I tell the boss—and he say, “MMMMMMMMMMMM—if I knew—I fire those men—what am I going to do now?” (Chuckle) Then I quit, go back to paper mill.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Helene Weaver
Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi
Date of Interview: 20 March 1978
Susan: Mrs. Weaver, could you tell us a little something about your early beginnings, your recollection of your childhood, where you were born, what your parents did and that sort of thing?
Helene: Well, I was born in Binghamton on Miles Street in the year of 1897 and a my father and mother parted when I was very young and then he had a business in a what was called Lestershire and a he remarried and I lived with—in Lestershire and I had a stepmother who was very good to me and a all her—she was a family of ten children and a I thought a great deal of my aunts and uncles and my father had a business for a good many years. He had to run a meat market in Johnson—in Lestershire and then it was changed to Johnson City in about 1916 I think. And I left school the third year of high school and went to work in a E-J office and while I was there they changed the name from Lestershire to Johnson City and then they christened a boat down in New York—Johnson City and I was one of the delegates to go. There was a delegate from each department E-J's that was taken and there was the ones by Mr. George F. & Mr. Harry L. took the second ones—the second highest and we went to New York and christened this boat. Had a wonderful time. (chuckle) There was a four of us girls together and we had—we didn't get any sleep all the time we were gone because we were having such a wonderful time and I worked until I was married. Then in 1920 and a we had—we were—we were buying an E-J home and when the home was finished we went housekeeping.
Susan: Do you recall how much you paid for that home?
Helene: $4,000—$4,000 and each month—yes you paid your rent—you paid some on your principal. Well, we—we a lived there 7 years and a my daughter was born in 1927 and in 1928 we sold our home and moved to Binghamton because my husband’s work was in Binghamton then and he had been an E-J worker and then he was working for Crowley Milk Co. is why we moved to Binghamton and he worked there two or three years and then he was—he went to work for Stow Mfg. He worked there ‘til he died in 1955 and a well my father sold his business the year I was married and he retired and he died in 1954. He would have been 83 years old in about two months and he died. (clears throat) Pardon me, then a—and then after my husband died I went to work at the House of the Good Shepherd. I had charge of the dining room and I worked there 4 years and then I retired at 62—and then I was a—they called me in for extra work whenever they needed me and then I knew some different people that they needed some help with meals and I used to go out and help them with their meals and do little things for people and then I took care of my grandson which was—he was born in 1956. I took care of my grandson and did this work and took care of my own home all at the same time and a I had a couple roomers in my home. They helped me with my rent and a then after my grandson was big enough so he could be left—I didn't do that anymore and then about 1965 I stopped doing any work for money and I moved here in the highrise in ‘68 and I got into the—into different things into volunteer work when they started the a Serve the ones that started the volunteer work and I worked for them until the R.S.V.P. took it over and I worked—I worked at the hospital every other week for 7 years and I have worked at the United Way for volunteer work and I have worked for the Office for the Aging and I worked for the A.O.P. Office, The Lawyers Reference and I was a cashier for the nutrition sight at the Y.W. for oh 6 years and a I've had to give it up because I didn't feel able to get back and forth to—to the project and I—the highrise I—I came in here when the apartment was brand new and I have been very happy here and it has given me more a chance to get to meet people and get out to do things and gives me something to occupy my time and help others and a I don't know as I know of anything more that I can tell you unless you have any questions you'd like to ask.
Susan: Mrs. Weaver, could we go back a little bit and a tell us a what life was like in Lestershire when you were a little girl growing up and the changes that you have seen in the community since the early days?
Helene: Well, when I was growing up it was—it's Johnson City now—but it was then Lestershire and I went to the Hudson Street school and I left my third year high school and went to work in E.J. office but when I was small I had cousins and we—we a had a big family and we were always together. The family was always together. We had good times and a if we wanted to amuse ourselves we had popcorn or pulled taffy or—or something like that we would play the piano and sing and we weren't allowed out at night until I think the curfew rang at 9 o'clock and we were supposed to be in by 9 o'clock and I can remember when if I was up to my cousins’ and I didn't get started home quickly enough and the curfew rang I was scared to death for fear the policeman would pick me up (chuckle) but I never did get picked up but a I always tried to be home. My folks were very strict with me and they tried to give me a good home and I had to mind my parents and I was taught that I shouldn't tell stories—tell fibs and not to lie and I should—should be kind to people and well as I say the—the a those times were so different from now I think but we thought nothing of it. I think that we were happier in our younger days than some of the young people now because before they’re 12 years old they've seen and had everything and we didn't. We went gradually getting things and so that when—and when we grew up there was still more things to take up our mind and our time and to for our enjoyment and a I was brought up to go to church and Sunday school and I thought I couldn't ever miss that was—that was one thing I didn't think I could miss prayer meeting or church or anything. I was brought up to live that way and a then when I worked in the E-J office I worked 10 hours a day 5 days a week that was from 7 to 6 and then on Saturday from 7 ‘til 5 and I got $8.50 a week and I thought I was rich (chuckle) and I gave my people $5.00 a week for my room and board and I used to think that well I was being punished that way but as I grew older I realized that my folks wanted me to know the responsibilities of handling money which I am very thankful for now and a I enjoyed working in this office there was about 50 girls in the office where I worked and I had—I did different jobs. I learned different things. I never was a bookkeeper or anything like that but I did—I did filing and I did orders and I did sample work. They made out samples with shoes and a I used to help on the inventory and when the First World War—I went out in the factories and sold Liberty bonds and I did I don't remember how many I sold at the time but I did very well. I did very well at that time.
And a now that I see that E-J's have gone I—I feel very sad at times to think that E-J factories are not working anymore because they did so much for Binghamton, Endicott and Johnson City and a George F. built the libraries and started the libraries and the dinners for people to eat—where they could go eat and they did so much for us and we had our E-J Chorus. I was in that some of the time and a but as I say it makes me feel very sad when I go down to Johnson City which I was down there a couple weeks ago and I see how Johnson City looked it just made me sick. I just said to my sister, “Oh I can't imagine what's ever happened to Johnson City.” But I think it’s just the idea that E-J's have just gone out because the Johnsons are all gone practically and a so though the times have changed so well I'm glad that I'm my younger days were filled with the way they were rather than the times now. I think that my life was—I've had a very sheltered life really because when I hear the things that go on that I never knew existed before and I'm glad that I never did know cause I don't like the thoughts like that (chuckle) so I guess that's about all I can tell you right off hand now of what happened.
Susan: Thank you very much Mrs. Weaver, it's been very nice talking with you.
Helene: Did I do all right?
Susan: Fine.
",,,,"13:25 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Helene Weaver",,,,1978-03-20,,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Weaver, Helene -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Johnson City (N.Y.); Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees -- Interviews; Volunteers; Retired Senior Volunteer Program (U.S.); United Way of America; House of the Good Shepherd; Broome County Office for Aging",2016-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e6975a9a26462502dd7dc3c01b2f5ce1.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6705b7439f539ab5994d80214d06e562.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cee499d97d5370574dbbd0b72a160759.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3c8722717e679d89580a26890239e7a7.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c771ce66ad0d9d66efd1fb0fe770c391.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/98fc7d99401335cbc82bb968a9db5655.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7e76a2c87c16236f89a3ea19983fc596.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6c3a5911be311ee7d89e4358271ce49f.m4a,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a8fa58d3b6f0eabef84443c083afb194.jpeg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 547,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/547,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Shirley Woodward ",,,,"audio/mp3 ","Woodward, Shirley -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Historians -- Interviews; American Revolution Bicentennial, 1976 ","Shirley Woodward speaks about her father's influence on her interest in local history, work as the Town of Maine historian and with the Nanticoke Valley Historical Society. She details the responsibilities of her work as the town historian. She discusses her years as Broome County Historian and her efforts during the bicentennial, as well as the nature of her work and how it impacted the community.",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 64 ",,"Wood, Wanda ","Woodward, Shirley ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Shirley Woodward
Interviewed by: Wanda Wood
Date of interview: 16 August 1978
Wanda: This is Wanda Wood interviewing Mrs. Shirley Woodward, Town of Maine Historian, in her home at Union Center and the date is the 16th of August, 1978. Shirley, why don't we start at the beginning and find out where you were born and how long you have lived in this town here, etc.?
Shirley: Well you may wonder about that because I was born in Florida, Gainesville, Florida. My father was a teacher, university teacher, and for three years he taught in the Univesity of Florida and I happened to be born in Florida. But he actually is from upstate New York, went to Syracuse University and taught there and then came back—after I was born—they came back and taught there for a while—and now lives in Auburn. Runs a museum there, he’s a historian, he was historian for Cayuga County for 25 years. He's retired. So—a I met my husband at Cornell and that's how I came down here, after we were married I came to this area. His family is old pioneer settlers. They came in 1800s to settle—one of them 1794 to this area.
Wanda: In the Town of Maine?
Shirley: Umhmm. Town of Maine in Union Center. This half of Union Center is in the Town of Maine. So—that’s how I came here.
Wanda: So you had a pretty good—a background for—a developing this interest in historical things.
Shirley: I guess so. I grew up in a museum, you might say. Our life revolved around a museum… historical…artistic and facts in the museum. And—a well I'm trying to think when I got started in history down here. That's another story, too. When our first child was born I was given a little baby book and in the baby book here's a part in the middle of it says: Parents, Grandparents, Great-grandparents. So l started to fill his out and as I was talking with various relatives and they would tell me about their parents and their grandparents, it just, I guess you'd say the bug bit me. (laughter). From there on I couldn't stop. And so I got into his genealogy dealing and of course being history, interested in history… The previous town historian here in Maine was a cousin of—a Gordon's mother and he was an elderly gentleman.
Wanda: And what was his name?
Shirley: Ollie Ketchum. Oliver, they called him Ollie. Oliver Ketchum. They lived right in the village of Maine and he had all the information right in his head. Anybody wanted to know anything, they'd just go talk to him and he would know everything and he was in his 80s or 90s when he died, and they were looking around for a new historian and Dr. (Clement) Bowers, who lived up in Maine at that time, happened to be a great friend of my father’s and he knew that I came from a historical family, I guess, and he knew I was interested and, I, of course, was going to the historical society meetings in Binghamton and I knew him there, so he…suggested my name. That was way back in early sixties. It was either ‘60 or ‘61, I’ve been historian that long. But I had to start from scratch, because there were no records.
Wanda: Oh, the man had kept it all in his head!
Shirley: They were kept…all in his head, uh huh. Yeah. Well—
Wanda: —wasn't much of a help to you, was it?
Shirley: No, but it's been fun collecting…and people give things to me and they will go either in the historian's office or in the new historical building. You know we have a historical society here in the Town of Maine called the Nanticoke Valley Historical Society and we've bought a house and fixing it up…should be open either this fall or surely by next spring…it will be open. And so a lot of the artifacts that have been given to me will probably go there. The—a documents and
historical things pertaining to the town and its development along with the town historian's office which will be in the new town building when they build it.
Wanda: Ohh, that won't be connected with the, historical…
Shirley: No. Actually they're two different things. That's where the town historian has to be very careful of things pertaining to the town and the development of the town that are given to them as town historians go into town records and the historical society usually collects artifacts. Now a town historian does not collect chairs and plows and spinning wheels and things like that. That is the historical society’s business.
Wanda: They're two separate entities.
Shirley: Yes. And like the town historian does not collect genealogies of the town people because this, these are the people that lived in the town; this would go in the town historical society.
Wanda: Then your main duties are collecting records, actually.
Shirley: Town records, yes, and caring for the town records.
Wanda: But anything you might collect, that would go to…
Shirley: That would go to the historical society, like an artifact. Like if somebody gave me—a an old spinning wheel or something. This would go to the historical society because this has nothing to do with town records, but is something they want to keep in the town and, and they want to donate it. Now this is, you have to be very careful.
Wanda: It's good that you have…
Shirley: Oh, there's a line there.
Wanda: …a cooperative feeling between the two of you.
Shirley: Some town historians, everything they get goes right to the historical society or it goes right to the town and the first thing you know the town has got a, a museum in its town building and that's…unless they really want it that way. In a rural town they could do it, but in our town we don't want that. We want it to be separated.
Wanda: But there's a lot of—a lot of history in the Town of Maine…
Shirley: You have to work together. Oh surely, surely. You work together.
Wanda: It's an old, old town for this section, isn't it?
Sirley: Yeah. Umhmm, 1794...first settlers were in here. They came to Union Center here this—a right here…in Union Center in 1790 & ‘92. The first mill…right down there on the creek… right on the creek was built in ‘92.
Wanda: Is that where the bar is now? The…
Shirley: Oh, no, ahm—
Wanda: …one by the bridge?
Shirley: Oh, oh, the bar? (laughs) Where the bridge is.
Wanda: Yeah.
Shirley: Yeah.
Wanda: That must have been where the mill was then?
Shirley: Yeah. And there was a sawmill there and a grist mill…rake factory and they were all very a well, Brazil Howard ran them and a this is his table… Gordon's grandfather. That chair there is his.
Wanda: Brazil?
Shirley: Brazilai. Good Bible name. They called him Brazil, or they call him Zilla called him Zilla—Brazilai, that's an old, old Bible name. So, well, that's how I got started being town historian.
Wanda: What do you actually have to do—what—I know you do a lot that isn't required— (laughter)—but what does a town historian have to do, by law?
Shirley: It's just maintenance, or caring for the town records or any records or pictures, photographs and records—written records—pertaining to the town. And now with the newspapers and things, you collect articles from the newspaper and file them away in folders under their—a headings. Like churches would be in one folder and schools in another and highway development. If an old house is torn down you get a picture of the old house and there'll probably be a newspaper article. Things like this, but there's no rule that says that you have to write articles or write history, or—a in fact you don't even have to do genealogy or any of this type thing. You just do it because you like to.
Wanda: You get hooked into it.
Shirley: But it's just really…you, you maintain the records and possibly gather new records pertaining to the town, that's…when there's a special event in the town…newspaper write-up, why then you cut it out and file it away.
Wanda: Now this is separate from the records that the clerk keeps, like births and deaths?
Shirley: Oh yes. Those are vital records, they have nothing to do with the historian’s office.
Wanda: Then your main interest is in—a genealogy, I gather.
Shirley: Oh yes, starting way back with the little chart in the baby book. Yes, we've traced o family, Gordon's family, the immigrants, Mayflower.
Wanda: And you've been doing wonderful things for the county historian's office, too.
Shirley: Oh yes, we've been… I've been indexing records—a there. Making them available… I mean, if somebody has to come from California, they've got three hours to spend. And it takes three hours to read one census if it's…just to find a family. It's, well it's time consuming. But if it's indexed and they can look in the index and, say their family's in a certain town, all they have to do is go right to that town and look, look at it 'n then they can copy the original record and that's it.
Wanda: Then you get these records from what—cemeteries and clerks, town clerks and that sort of thing?
Shirley: Well—a, now the county records would be the census records and the surrogate records and the deed records. These—a these are public property. In other words, I say public property, they're, people can go in and look at them and research 'em. The cemeteries—I have collected 'em because they are important, but they have nothing to do with being town historian or anything. It's—a the cemetery stones are there, you go to the cemetery associations and they have the records…hopefully. 'Course there's a lot of them that are no longer in existence and records are gone and—a…
Wanda: But all this goes into that genealogical file…
Shirley: This, then is genealogical—umhmm, and—a church records—you go in and copy out the names of people, when they joined the church, baptized, married, deaths. You go into the old newspapers, which are on file in the Binghamton library on microfilm or in the Endicott papers, you've got them in the Endicott library and you read the obituary notices and the marriages in these papers, that’s genealogical. you can read the papers and the histories. The papers then were just like they are now, they had the local history and they used to have columns…who would come visiting. They don't do that anymore in the papers, you know, and it's, it's really sad, 'cause to me that's what a newspaper is—your local history and so somebody's aunt and uncle from out west is visiting and, I mean, you may not see them, but it's nice to know they came and visited…and hundred years from now it gives you a clue as to…
Wanda: Where they were at what time.
Shirley: Yes. Yeah. Oh they're so valuable. Of course they have vital records now which they didn't have a hundred years ago and I suppose it isn't necessary anymore to read the newspapers to find out who, who is having a baby and who got married and—(laughs)
Wanda: But think of all the leg work you save for people who are coming from far parts…
Shirley: Well that's, that's the reason for doing it…
Wanda: …and trying to find these records.
Shirley: …that's part of my job, is helping people…find the material. And the best way to find it is by indexing.
Wanda: When did you start? Did you start this genealogical file at the county historian's office? Did you start that work when you were county historian?
Shirley: No, no. I had these files started long before, because I started with the Town of Maine— 'course you can't just do one town—you start doing the surrounding towns—first thing you know you've got the whole county done. But when, I started just with the local records then I began to realize how important it was and then I indexed the county histories because I was always looking…trying to find a name and 'twas, about the third time you read an article and you say, “This is useless, to read the same thing over and over again just to find one name.” So, you index it…and I just got in the habit of getting a historical book and just, as I went along, indexing it on little cards, 3x5 cards, just the name and the page number, then, then I'd stamp each card with a reference, name of the book and file them alphabetical and then—a a year from now when I'm looking up a surname, why I can go back and here's all these cards…this book on page so and so has got information of that man and this census on a certain page there's family information. Ah—on another book there's a write-up about his farm. It's—a, it's all indexed.
Wanda: It's like a computer system, isn't it?
Shirley: It is. And the newer historians now, in fact the county historians’ meeting in, in September, one of our lectures is going to be on on should you put things on computer or not?
Wanda: Well how do you feel about it?
Shirley: I think it's great. It's just that I've done it this way. So there's no need for it now…in Broome County. But—a for counties that have not done this and there's an awful lot of historians. I have gone around to several county historians and got them started. And I started them with the 3x5 cards and I got them started, set their office up so that they would do the same as I…I mean they come to my office and it's just so well organized…
Wanda: It is.
Shirley: I mean I'm not boasting, but it's just, just the way I have it organized. I just impressed them so, and I've had...county historians from all over the state...come here, look at the thing and then I have helped them set up their office. And…because records are useless without an index.
Wanda: And using the same system with each historian is good.
Shirley: And it doesn't matter what system they use, whether they put all their cemeteries in one book and have a master index to cemeteries and census in another book, with a master index. It doesn't matter. I put everything together. And one county I started, they, they did everything separate until they got quite a large collection. One day one of the fellas, I was there visiting. And he was setting up and says, ""You know, we finally did what you did—put everything together.” I said, ""I told you in the beginning.” He says, ""Yes, I know you told me, but,” he says, “'We wanted to keep everything separate 'n it got too big.” He said, ""I was looking in fifteen places,"" he said. ""That got to be a chore."" So he put everything together, all surnames together, you got all fifteen references right there in one little pack. (Laughs). So—you know how it is.
Wanda: And it won’t be that much more complicated for somebody in years to come, too.
Shirley: Umhumm. That's right. But if you put everything together in one master index and have it…in a file where you can keep adding to it without…taking pages out and putting more pages in, that would be a loose file.
Wanda: Well you started this before...now how long ago?
Shirley: Oh, I'd say around fifteen years.
Wanda: When did you become county historian?
Shirley: I was county historian for seven years, so, it would be, what? ‘71. I was appointed in January of ‘71. I'd been deputy for a long time. I—Robert Spencer was the county historian and—a he didn't care for genealogy. He knew I did so I, he would pass all the letters on to me— genealogy—and I helped him with other things, but genealogy mainly and then when he died I just, just appointed me, historian.
Wanda: And I hear you…did marvelous things for the historian's, historian's office while you were there—in reorganizing things.
Shirley: Yes, well when I took over as county historian, it was, it all came to me in cardboard boxes and filing cabinets. And—(laughs) I said, “Now wait a minute, I can't have all this valuable stuff in my house."" And—a between you and I…
Wanda: You mean you were expected to keep it in your house?
Shirley: Yes. Bob Spencer kept it in his house…all those years. He had a study—a bedroom—a study and—a here was all these boxes and boxes of stuff and books and things and ‘course I had two children at home then. Each one of my bedrooms was full with a child, you know, three bedrooms and so the spare bedroom of course I had—ended up with the stuff in it. And I just said, ""This can't be."" And according to the rules and regulations from Albany it should be in the county office building. The county historian should have his records in the county office building —same with a town. They should be in the town building. And a, so I—see Ed Crawford was the supervisor at that time and I talked to him. And they were in the process of building the new buildings. And then he promised me I'd have a room in the new building. Well they got that all made and everybo—a the floors were all used up—with other people wanting to move over there, so I got a room in the old building, which was just fine. That's where the historian should be anyway—in an old building. And I had a very small room, but it could be locked and I—it was files one side and the other. You just walked down through the middle—you couldn't open two drawers opposite. You just—had to walk in there—and my desk was outside.
Wanda: Where was that now, what part of the building was that in?
Shirley: Oh—it was the fourth floor of th—a, of the new, of the addition to the courthouse. It was—the old executive’s office, really if you know where that was.
Wanda: Mmhum—yes.
Shirley: And—a the lawyer’s reference girl was there and she had her desk there and I had my desk there and then the records were all in the room that was locked. But I, I left the key with her because if anybody came and wanted to look in them she would…watch them, if I wasn't there. And it was, it was a nice arrangement. I could use her phone and so it made a very nice arrangement. And I got all the stuff out of my house. Oh, you should…they moved it, the county moved it. They sent a truck to Robert Spencer’s—a county truck. And they brought it up here and put it in the garage, gradually I got it in the house. And—a then they came and trucked it…back and so that was quite a job. I didn’t want it in the house.
Wanda: No. It was very—
Shirley: If my house burned, why all those things would be lost.
Wanda: Yes.
Shirley: 'Course if the court house burns they will too, but I don't think that'll burn.
Wanda: So then you moved from there over to the old courthouse, right?
Shirley: Yes. Ah—one of the judges wanted to have that floor because there was a hearing room there, a big room. Court hearing. And so we moved over to the old courthouse then on the third floor of the old courthouse into a larger room, which was very much better. I'd been asking for a larger room for a long time and here…so they fixed up this larger room for me. But the lawyer reference girl and I still shared the room. But they put the bookcases in, 'n we chose the colors 'n I mean they just put the—the rug in and everything for us. It was, they were fixing it up but the way we wanted it.
Wanda: It has a nice atmosphere.
Shirley: And—a with the bookcases there, and, I asked for a small bookcase about half that size and when they come in and put all those big bookshelves there I thought, ""Oh where will I ever find books?"" But you know, you've been in there so…they're filling up…
Wanda: They’re nearly filled, aren't they?
Shirley: ...they're filling up fast. And—a all the cabinets there, there’s no room now for all the cabinets. They really need a bigger room.
Wanda: Well I understand they are going to move into a separate…place.
Shirley: I, I have heard that they're going to get, that he's trying to move into a bigger room. And that's great because he really needs a work table, for people to work on. Needs a—there’s some desks there, but only one person can sit at a desk. Whereas if you had a table you could get three or four people in a room. Most historians’ offices I go into there'll be one desk, but there'll be one long table with chairs around it people can work on.
Wanda: You had volunteers that worked with you too, in the county.
Shirley: The C.E.T.A., the C.E.T.A. girls in the summertime. And I would teach them how to type…and I would…teach them how to file cards…file them alphabetically and there's a lot of things to learn. And it's just little things, but I’m sure that some of the girls went on to much better jobs and the typing skills I'm sure, were… They couldn't type when they came to me and they…by the end of the summer they were real good.
Wanda: And they had to be accurate, too.
Shirley: Uh huh. Well, if they made mistakes they either throw the card away or start over again, or…erase it. But after a few weeks…you learn not to make mistakes, because that's a waste of time. And the—a volunt…the RSVP, and I never can remember what…Retired Volunteer Services—a whatever it is…RSVP [Retired Senior Volunteer Program]...and I've had several people helping me there. They would come in in the wintertime and I would teach them how to type the cards an , so they could come in and just—a I would leave their little chart. They had to sign in and sign out the hours and—a this was returned to RSVP because they're, they're not monitored, but they're—a…
Wanda: Credited.
Shirley: Credited, or whatever it is…they do. And after I taught them, why then they would come in. I, I would always leave their box of cards there to be typed and they would come in, do their hours and leave. Sometimes I’d see them, sometimes it’d be two or three weeks before I’d see them…again…where…but they knew the days I was coming in and some would be there on the days. Others… I’ve had one girl working there all last winter. I’ve only met her once.
Wanda: Is that a fact?
Shirley: Yeah. She comes in on Monday for some reason and Monday's the day I stay home and do housework. It's the only day, I save that for the house. The rest of the time I spend all my time on history 'n…
Wanda: Well we know we have a new historian. You still will carry on this genealogical work?
Shirley: I'm doing just genealogical work now. I’ll show you the files later. We'll go upstairs and see my files.
Wanda: Is there anything else you could—a tell about being a town historian, Town of Maine Historian? Ah—how, how did you make out during the bicentennial year? That must have been a busy, busy time.
Shirley: Oh, that year was a blur. I remember it, going through it, but that's all I remember, is going through it. It was busy, being a town historian, county historian. I don't think I did any housework all that year. I got meals and occasionally did a little ironing but that's about it.
Wanda: Those things you can do anytime.
Shirley: Oh, anytime, that's right. But it, of course, county historian we started about three or four years ahead of time planning and we had… I was an ex officio, bicentennial commission ex officio, there were thirteen members to the committee and then two ex officio. The county historian was one and the—a curator at Roberson…the other…ex officio. And—a so there were fifteen people and we'd get just about everybody out…there were two or three…there was always some that couldn't come every time and we'd…plans and each one would do their own thing. I mean I had…certain things I was in charge of and then…we'd make all these plans and then we'd go to all these meetings and then come the bicentennial year, we just went to all these things and we had…
Wanda: Sounds well-organized.
Shirley: It was organized. It was very well-organized and the two chairmen that we had—a, Michael Vanuga and Shirley Hess. You ought to—a interview them. While it's still fresh in their mind, the bicentennial. That's a…I hadn't thought about that. You know, we talked, the bicentennial, talked about interviewing people concerning the bicentennial, and right afterwards … and then of course the funding was cut off by the county when the new administration came in and—a so we…that's one project we didn't get finished, is the tape—interviewing people, specially on the committee and—a so maybe that's something that your committee could do.
Wanda: That was quite a historical event.
Shirley: Yeah. And—a, let's see, oh we had the quilt. I had people here at the house quilting for six weeks. I moved all the furniture out of the dining room and had the quilt frame in there and they would come…when they could and work. I kept, I kept a record of all the names and, and the hours and—a so we did that quilt and then we gathered fifty or sixty quilts from the county that went to this show in August. And we also, one day was Broome County Day up there and of course you had to supply the people to guard the quilts that day. And boy do quilts have to be guarded! You have to have people standing right there.
Wanda: And that was where?
Shirley: Up to Ithaca.
Wanda: Ithaca.
Shirley: And—a that was an experience. That was one of the things I was in charge of.
Wanda: And the quilts were antique quilts, were they?
Shirley: Oh and the antique quilts—and the new ones too. There was prizes for the new quilts.
Wanda: It's marvelous to see these old—a crafts being revived, isn't it?
Shirley: Oh, it's great, great. And I worked… they had a quilt up there … everybody who submitted—a quilts, all the counties, had to send somebody up to work on a quilt up there, during the week. There was a whole week exhibit and so there's a Broome County square.
Wanda: Ohh.
Shirley: Up there. And I submitted a quilt square and then helped with the actual quilting we did. And I learned how to quilt—real fast. (laughter) Since then I've made one quilt and I've got material for two or three others but I made one for my granddaughter. I made a genealogy quilt. Her name is on the bottom, her parents, her grandparents, great-grandparents. Instead of a flower design I made the names the design. I think it's in California. I didn't tell my daughter I was doing it. I just told her I was…
Wanda: You mean the names are actually quilted into the…
Shirley: Instead of having a flower or a line or a design, which you usually have on a quilt I… wrote the names and so that was the quilt, that was the design—writing, writing the name and the dates, and the place of birth. And I put a little heart on the bottom with the date of the marriage of my daughter and son-in-law.
Wanda: That's really one of a kind, that's going to be an heirloom, isn't it?
Shirley: And I promised my son that he'll have one for his progeny when he gets married. So let's see—quilts. Oh the other thing I was in charge of in the bicentennial year was the—a town historians writing their little pamphlets. You know, that we… Each town historian wrote a eight page pamphlet with pictures—a brief history of their town. And I had them all printed exactly alike. Different colors of the paper but you know, the same format. And then we had a cover made, we furnished a cover and it was sold as a book. People could buy it as a book or they could buy just the town, and this was quite a success.
Wanda: I should think so. Wonderful idea because it's so handy for…
Shirley: And the little booklets are in, in this cover separately.
Wanda: …school kids to use. Yeah.
Shirley: You could take… it wasn't all bound together as one book. In fact the idea was copied by several of the counties when they saw what we were doing they, they did the same thing. Their town historians wrote the little history and then it was printed by the same printer in the same format with the same headings for towns. Yeah. Ahm, what else did we do? Oh of course there were so many things going on in the bicentennial year. I can't even remember them (laughs) there were too many of them.
Wanda: I can't.
Shirley: Like the Freedom Train was here and, and the Barge. We had a big thing going at the Barge. Broome County was part of that. That was a three-county affair—four-county actually—it was four counties. And Broome, Broome County was a part of that. And I was, seemed to be the liaison for that. I was running up to Ithaca every month and meeting, planning that for a year. So I, I had a busy year.
Wanda: Well the Town of Maine…
Shirley: And the Town of Maine, and I was busy there, too…
Wanda: …had a tremendous celebration, didn't they?
Shirley: We sure did, we did it in May. And we had a three-day… I guess it was Memorial weekend, so we had the three-day holiday. We had our tour of the houses and the booths and 'n everything one has at a centennial…celebration, and everything in costume, of course. And we had a ball earlier, in costume. Gordon and I won first prize with our costumes. I was so, you know (laughs) I just…I shouldn't boast.
Wanda: Did you wear family clothes?
Shirley: No, I made them.
Wanda: Oh, you made them.
Shirley: Yeah. I made him a colonial suit and had the little short pants and the knickers and the coat with the old braid on it, made out of that washable velvet and—a… kind of velvet that can be washed. And I got a little piece of old polyester, but it looked like brocade, and made a vest for him. And what a time I had finding stockings, white stockings? You know, like they used to wear in the old days?
Wanda: For men?
Shirley: For men. Oh, I tried several different things. I finally bought some polyester and made these stockings and then right after, you know, I made the first pair. They had a seam right up the back (laughs) 'cause I had to sew them. And—a then I found a pair of knee socks… from Sears… white knee socks. 'Course they were for girls, so I got a very large size and they stretched and… that… they turned out just fine…but they went up over the knees. And they had to…because the, the stocking goes over the knee and the knicker comes down. And then I had on a blue—we were both in blue—and that's probably because we were a pair. And I had…I got—a, well what I used was lining, acetate lining for coats. And that's washable, but it's, it's shiny and it looks like satin, so I made my dress outta that. And it really, I was just proud of it. And I was very surprised when we, we got a prize for it. Didn't expect that. So that was then that I was on the—a when Tioga County had their ball. I was one of the judges. And Gordon and I went to the ball over there. We went to two balls. (laughs) Oh there was just so many things and…
Wanda: As you say, it's hard to remember, isn't it? The activities that were going on. Every weekend…
Shirley: There was something and all the different towns. I tried… and we had the… as the county committee, we had to—or commission, I should say. It wasn't a committee—as the county commission we had to, to really our job was synchronizing everything so that all the towns didn't have their event on the same weekend. And so we managed. I think they were all different weekends. Some of them, even with the rain, were postponed, but they still … were scattered throughout the summer, the spring and the summer and the fall. So we were able to attend… most of them, or some of them. Yeah, there were just so many things… going on.
Wanda: Well, now is here anything more you want to say about the duties of a town historian, or what you, how you handled this at the same time?
Shirley: Well the duties of the county historian and the town historian… are the same thing… It's just, it's main…it's keeping track of the records and keeping them so they're available for people to look at. And it's just constant collecting… from newspapers and… a town historian doesn't have that much because there's just a small entity. The county, I used to cut the papers every day because there would be something, somebody would have something going on every day.
Wanda: You'd have to be a very interested person and you have to be also organized, don't you?
Shirley:Yes. I'm, I'm pretty well organized (laughs) I, I'm not too good a historian, really, but I'm organized. I do know how to organize and that's, that's very important.
Wanda: Yes, I should think so.
Shirley: And these projects that I'm starting for the county should, for the future, should be really, really great if they're carried through and finished up.
Wanda: Do you hope to carry on with the town historian's job now?
Shirley: Well I…
Wanda: Is it appointive?
Shirley: Yes it's appointed…every two years. And the county job—I think that had to be every year. I can't remember. You just go in and you sign your appointment for the year. And if he decides to appoint somebody else, why somebody else does it. (laughs) But that's—a…
Wanda: Well I guess if, if you have nothing more to add. Do you? Have anything else?
Shirley: No. I think we've talked about everything on the list here that you—a… scrapbooks, you have on the list. These are very important because in the older days, see, we don't have the newspapers.
Wanda: Yes.
Shirley: But people themselves would cut scrap, cut scraps! (laughs)... Cut articles from the newspapers, making a scrapbook. And—a people nowadays don't do that so much anymore.
Wanda: That's true.
Shirley: And—a so these old scrapbooks will have family information, or they'll cut out a wedding with—a you know, or an obituary, or something that's going on in the town and there'd be a nice write-up on something going on in the town and—it would be in that scrapbook. And these are valuable because they just aren't available, that information isn't available.
Wanda: How about photographs?
Shirley: Oh they're very important.
Wanda: Do you have them donated?
Shirley: Oh sure, they donate them. People have them and—a sometimes they don't even know what they are, so they'll bring them in and get them identified and then maybe—a building is now gone. Roberson Center really has got a, a much better collection of pictures, but they've been doing it for years. Historical society. And a lot of the pictures and things like this go to Roberson and this is where they should be, I think. I think the county historian should take care of the county records and the current events for future reference. And the old pictures and the old collections and the artifacts and the…oil paintings and the rocking chairs and things like this, they should go to Roberson.
Wanda: You were telling me the other day about—a writing down some of these—a inscriptions on tombstones?
Shirley: (laughs) Yes.
Wanda: Do you have any interesting things you want to put on tape about those?
Shirley: Ahm—I have, I really haven't done much of that kind of work myself. You see the D.A.R. went through and copied all the inscriptions in the 1920s, but they didn't copy the new ones, just the old ones and in the 1960s the Mormon Church decided that the cemeteries were disappearing, the stones were going, you know, breaking and pollution from being moved and so they, knowing that these were very valuable, and they sent their people out and each…they just, there were teams went right out and did all the cemeteries. And they would take the D.A.R. records and then work from there. Or they would do the cemetery and then we would compare the two because a lot of stones would be gone. The D.A.R. just copied the very early ones. They figured after Civil War there were census records and vital records and things, so the cemeteries weren't, records weren't quite as vital. But the Mormon people have copied them right up to current times. So… I don't have too many stories to tell about cemeteries, but I, I get all my fun out of the census records, indexing the census records…because the sense of humor of some of these people. They—a there's two or three favorites I have where the census record would write down the family, the mother and the father and then start with the children and they'd get down to about eleven or twelve or thirteen and the last one's name was Enough! Or… I found one that the last one's name was Last. So here's a little kid goin' through life with the name Enough. (laughter) And there's one I found in Binghamton on—he must have been very proud of the fact that he was in the War of 1812. He was, I think it was in the '70 or '75 census. He was in his 90's. No, it was the ‘65 census, that's right, because hey were—a, there was a whole separate category in the ‘65 census on…the—a Civil War…records. So, for the last five years any man that had been in the Civil War, why he, he wrote down what his regiment was and when he served and if he was wounded or not he told about his wounds and if he was killed in the service there was a record of where he was buried. I mean, he family knew this because it was taken in ‘65 right at the end of the war. And here was this one man in his nineties and he served in the Navy and I was reading along and I said, ""Goodness, a 90-year old man serving in the Navy!”—because there were Navy people in the, that was in the Civil War. And I stopped in the very end there and his term of service was 1812 to 1813. (laughter) And then I had another man who served in the Mexican Wars and here it is that he told about his service in the Mexican Wars. And the Indian Wars, there was one man in the Indian Wars. Most of it they just got in the Civil War, but every once in awhile they'd strike somebody that was an older person and very proud of it and it was written right down—in the census.
Wanda: Rank, name and serial number, eh?
Shirley: Umhmm and then the one, the one man that—a I copied out of the '75 census… and the enumerator… had written, they put a star by his name or a asterisk, so I looked down at the bottom in the margin to see what he had written. The man was in his seventies and his wife
was about forty and there were about ten or twelve children living in the family. So it says, “This man was the father of eleven children by his first wife and nine by his second and with the prospect of more.”
Wanda: Oh no!
Shirley: Right in the census records.
Wanda: Twenty kids and the prospect of more.
Shirley: And the good prospect of more. So you never know what you're going to come across. One census-taker, the last family in the book, it had, it had an eighteen year old girl in it and her occupation, see he put down their name and where they were born and their occupation. Her occupation was “my intended,” so evidently this was the girl he was going to marry. That was her occupation, was “my intended.” But there are, when you're copying records like this… and the names, too. I have a whole list of them upstairs I—in fact in the 1830 census I copied a couple off. His name was Jack, last name was H-a-m-e-r Hamer, jackhammer. (laughs) So I kept a…list of those things.
Wanda: I should think so.
Shirley: You just, you just never know what you're going to come across. And they weren't afraid to put in anything, either. If they were just living together it was right there. If they weren't married, they were just living together.
Wanda: Yes, I remember coming across a census record where the man was called a thief. That was his occupation.
Shirley: That's right, or a convict. That was his occupation. In all the copying I've been doing for the last fifteen or twenty years I have found one horse thief.
Wanda: Admitted, eh?
Shirley: Yeah. He was a convict and he was convicted for—a stealing a horse.
Wanda: Did that happen right here in Broome County?
Shirley: Umhmm. And you go through the Poor House records and the—a Asylum records. A—the—a…
Wanda: Inebriate Asylum?
Shirley: The Inebriate Asylum and all of…the occupations, everybody in there was doctor, lawyer, insurance agents. You go through the jail and they were all Irish and they were in there for, for brawling…for alcoh—or drunkenness… 'cause when the census-taker we—on that day, he had to do who was in the jail. ( laughs)
Wanda: Monday morning was probably all drunkards.
Shirley: Oh boy. And the hotels with the—a men and women—it's right there, you know, all…
Wanda: There were so many things I wanted to ask… Hotel records, ahm are those ever preserved? Do you ever have anything like that, come down to you?
Shirley: Well they should be. Ah, I found one in the county—a not too long ago. I was going through some things from a… a hotel. It was a ledger of the people who were in the hotel. It was rather brief, some of it was after 1900, but it should be saved.
Wanda: Oh yes.
Shirley: Who knows, who knows where they are. I mean, maybe they are in Roberson, like the Arlington Hotel that’s gone. I have no idea where those… records are. Maybe the family has them.
Wanda: Well you'd see some very famous signatures on some of them, I'm sure.
Shirley: I'm sure there would be. But that… I mean it's nothing to do with the county historian's records, so that…this would be Roberson's job to… find out where they are, and get… kept… preserved. People are giving me, ah, old school books and the ledgers and the records of the old school places. And it's all right because—a they'll be saved, but if they gave me a desk or something like that I would say ""no.”
Wanda: Well, I hope you carry on with this wonderful job that you're doing. You're just exactly the right person for it, too.
Shirley: Well thank you very much.
Wanda: Thanks for the interview and your time.
",,,,"48:32 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Shirley Woodward",,,,"1978-08-16 ",,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Woodward, Shirley -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Historians -- Interviews; American Revolution Bicentennial, 1976; Town of Maine (N.Y.) Historian; Nanticoke Valley Historical Society; Broome County Historian ","2016-03-27 ",,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/739ff3b76c24cad85323bfed208c551b.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cb1ea5f9081756ca409f880420fb846e.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/eaa195cad4bac2628a08a378c155e6ba.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/35e364255f4e32dbf7938b2567124ac5.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/646145696269f9f8a50ee48052d61bb5.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/56136c2687fb3dc5a613028f4f473c61.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7e0b5d9e5df35209646a576a9b70469d.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/24a7cc0c454f94b14ff188595822bd29.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/684ad13a3cdd3c494646458f15219fa7.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/89e7cb187ea92a085b74717c9b9d585b.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0bee45da7a750e580f32e32683ab0409.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/91b4c72c1582b423aac4119553914d12.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b9c6bbe3efee28e7e16176dab3d1a2ae.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/82032fb81d3e65885f2b549f046b727b.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9589d4b8fddc4b1078ba471fefec5824.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1a53f40ea8eb61b956f1e4ce6c119655.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1e1588325ea77b735378f6c73f3ff8c4.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ddbb847b185f5f8b59f1f6a66b2f5372.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1a6b3a1fc4fb3e45eeee0a1ea4f14205.m4a,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9c85e273277a2699267a39dca6d0e3a9.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/36a2e3707b24df57fe6353c0f67e0b36.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d0dc28cde2fbc190416fba0781927c42.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6191003c70d6a13511304c378a56795f.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/69ff3511d1ade1ebac1806d2e01c400d.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/998560563abc6a715b501f8f0cf8fa03.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2e28ef3bbb04523a416b07d8055fc7e0.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5c853a6041317163309800900abc6053.jpeg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 548,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/548,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Lena Templeton",,,,"audio/mp3 ","Templeton, Lena -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Pleasantmount (Pa.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Ansco Company -- Employees -- Interviews; Volunteers ","Lena Templeton talks about her childhood growing up on a farm in Pleasantmount, PA and her early education, and eventually moving to New York state. She discusses early work taking care of the office of a skin specialist in Binghamton, NY then getting married and having children, and finding work at Ansco's during the war. She details working at Ansco's including tasks she performed. She speaks about her interests and activities (dancing) as a retiree and her volunteer work in the community. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries ",,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. ",,"English ","Sound ","Recording 60 ",,"Dobandi, Susan ","Templeton, Lena ",,"Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Lena Templeton Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi Date of Interview: 1 February 1978 Susan: Mrs. Templeton, could you tell us a little about your early beginnings, where you were born? Lena: I was born in Pleasantmount, PA, on a little farm. A–and I lived there ‘til I was about seven years old. I started school there and the school teacher used to live with us during the bad winter weather, which we had piles and piles of snow in those days. We lived down there and my father used to hitch the jackass up to a little sleigh and we would go to school through the woods and then he’d have to come and get us and it was a one room school house and uh just sometimes the fire was out and we would freeze ah it was really something. Well, I went to school there a couple of years and and–ah then ah–my family–we moved to Pleasantmount in the village. That was outside about 3 miles where I started school, so we moved to the village and my father was in the livery business–raced horses around to the fairs and ah–I went to school there–a–I went to high school–I was in the eleventh grade and my father he moved to New York State. Ah–was working for a realtor–oh Mr. Hoffman and they had a lot of land up to Conklin and they said they were going to fix it up and that lasted a few years and a when I was–a–18 years old I went to work to take care of twins and I stayed there nine months and then ah Dr. George Fox, a skin specialist in Binghamton on Main St.–ah–he wanted me to come and take care of the office for him. They had no nurses those days, you know. They they took care of their own. So, I went there and I was there for 5 ½ years. So, when I was 24 I was married and still around Binghamton and had four children–had twin girls and I a got married of course when I was 24 years old. And something interesting too, my father-in-law came over from Scotland, Ireland in a boat and I can't tell how many–a weeks or months they were coming over but just in an open boat. They came over from Scotland, Ireland and I never did see him but ah it is ah my father-in-law used to tell about what a rough time it was and that it was a miracle that they made it you know. At that time there was no transportation by water. That was a good many years ago. Well, I brought up my family and went to work at Ansco's. I was 42 years old and it was during the war and I ah loved my work. I did everything. I did packing. I took a man's job at one time as stock girl and I did perforating the film ah but the last 12 years there, I was a group leader and I enjoyed it and I missed it when I retired, very much. I enjoyed the friends I made and a it was a good place to work and it was those days a lot different than it is today. I started out at about $25 a week and when I finished up I was making better than a hundred clear. So–ah–that a was a very a interesting work and I made a lot of friends and I still have them so now I ended up retired and working here 8 years and I–really my life's not too interesting. (chuckle) Susan: Well, it’s nice to–to be useful and that you’re helpful keeping house for this gentleman. Lena: Oh and he appreciates it a lot. You know, one of his daughters is married to Dr. Gilmore. Susan: Oh, did she? Lena: Yes, that’s her coming in now. Susan: Where does he practice? Lena: Oh, he’s had a heart attack. He’s not practicing anymore. They’re in Florida, they’re just up here for business. That’s his wife. That’s his daughter—they don’t come too much. Susan: Mrs. Templeton, let’s continue when you retired from Ansco. What you did with your life? Lena: When I retired from Ansco the first year I was lost for something to do so I took up dancing took lessons for a year and I enjoyed it so much. It was something that I wanted to do all my life and a we traveled around and put shows on here and there and a it was very enjoyable and I use it now I feel so relaxed and free if I go out now, you know, I’m able to do most all the dances. And then I was–a–just a by myself and I thought there is something I can do. So I watched the paper–they wanted somebody to come in to take care of an elderly couple so I started down there and I enjoyed it and a I’m still there. It will be 8 years this month that I have been here and it gives me something to do and it’s very satisfying to think that you’re helping somebody each day. Susan: And now I don’t think you’d mind telling us how old you are? Lena: No. I’ll be 77 April 27th. Susan: Well, that is wonderful. Lena: Ha–ha–But those dancing lessons, I really got a lot out of them. You know my daughters were so happy when I did it. All my life I–I wanted to I could dance, but not really good you know. But a–we went all over Elmira and put on dances. We had a ball. We had dance frocks and I felt so elegant. And you know, if there is something a–a–if there is something in your mind that you’d like to do–you have the opportunity to do it, it’s good to do it get it over with because you’re so satisfied with yourself that you accomplished it you know. Susan: That’s right. Lena: You’d be surprised those senior citizens how beautiful they dance just marvelous and some of those old ladies they’re in their 80s, they can just step around there like a feather beautiful, do all the new dances, the Bump. They do everything not just the waltz and foxtrot and what have you. They do everything. You should see it would be worth it just to go over and see them. Once a month they have a dinner and a dinner dance and they have live music, you know and you’d be surprised to see them, it’s really marvelous. Susan: Well, I think I am going to make a point to go and watch some of the activities since I have been talking with people. Lena: Sure, you just enjoy watching them. I haven’t been up recently. I had a bad knee. I had bursitis in it and I didn’t get–I got into work and back but I didn’t take in any of the you know–activities. I went to the State Hospital every month like that, but a– Susan: Is that part of your voluntary work in the community? Lena: Yeah–uh ha–yeah. Susan: What did you do there? Lena: Where? State Hospital? Susan: Yeah. Lena: We took refreshments there were about five or six of us went up a and that was from the Moose Club. We were members of the Moose Club and we took refreshments, sandwiches and cake and we–a–played bingo ‘til nine o’clock and then Easter we gave them a party, Christmas we gave them a party and in July we gave them a big dinner–half a chicken, watermelon and baked beans and salads. You never saw such a happy crowd in all your life. And we have about 75-80 of them that are able you know enjoy it and play bingo and what have you. It was really–is satisfying when I first went up there it was kind of depressing but now, I wouldn’t miss it for anything because when I go home I feel so good. They are just such happy faces. When you go there they are all waving at you you know and if you have different jewelry on they’ll say where’s your cameo, where is this or where is that you know they really are–they really are so happy to see you and some of them they–they you know aren’t able to come but that picnic–they look forward to it. They are talking about it for weeks before we go up there. If it’s nice we have it outdoors, if not, we have it inside. But that’s a big job. We fix the chickens at the Moose Club you know and take them up in roasters and we fix salads and watermelon usually–they do love watermelon but they have a ball. They feed them good up there but there’s things that they don’t get you know. They get good substantial food you know but not–not any goodies up there that you ordinarily get at home. So, I really was busy before I came to work but it’s like my daughters say to me, you know they kid me a lot they say, “Mother you know what, it’s gotten to the point where we have to make an appointment with you in order to get you on the phone or anything,” because I’m never home. Susan: Tell us about how you go bowling with them. Lena: How I go bowling with them? Susan: At your age. Lena: Oh well I bowl once a week and I bowl with my twin daughters and two granddaughters and we have a ball. I look forward to it every week and I’d miss it if I didn’t go. It really is relaxing and no matter how tired I am when I bowl I feel relaxed. I go home and I feel like a new person. It’s always been that way. I bowled when I was at Ansco’s too you know so I don’t bowl as well as I used to but we’re second place we were last year so we don’t mind. Susan: Well, you certainly have been a very active woman in the community. Lena: Yes, thank you I have and I was active when I brought my family up too you better believe it. I had twins and I nursed them 8 ½ months without a bottle and did my own work and had one 2 years old at the time too so I had three babies. Susan: Well thank you very much for the interview Mrs. Templeton. ",,,,"13:26 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Lena Templeton",,,,"1978-02-01 ",,"Broome County Oral History Project ","Templeton, Lena -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Pleasantmount (Pa.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Ansco Company -- Employees -- Interviews; Volunteers Dance class ","2016-03-27 ",,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b4d90ba1e9c94c5c2e6d1042172dc847.mp3,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0a5906e1d31a91c5a581ac3677b32724.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/749f68365a9cb3b7c9424ee73f19f8bd.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c7fda9ffc502d8969f32278c1d27b31a.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0bf68c52b820fc264fcefdebf94646e2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d2d6ce083e6b0d9e80fb65a9e435943d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d7bbeccb67a35c164875f5080bed4a63.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/82a27360816590740d21cf77d1550138.jpg","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 550,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/550,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Harry Bloomer ",,,,audio/mp3,"Bloomer, Harry -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.); Cortland (N.Y.); Santa Claus","Harry Bloomer discusses joining the Army as a young man and entertaining the soldiers. Upon being discharged he began working as a Santa Claus for local organizations and continued to do this for the rest of his life. He talks about attending a Santa Claus school annually. He was also a clown and was known as Blinky the Clown. During the Bicentennial he portrayed Uncle Sam.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 66",,"O'Neil, Dan","Bloomer,Harry",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interviewed with: Harry Bloomer
Interviewed By: Dan O’Neil
Date of Interview: 03/16/1978
Dan: This is Dan O’Neil, and speaking with Harry Bloomer. 263 Main Street, Johnson City. The date is March 16, 1978. This interview is being, taking place at Wilson Memorial Hospital in Johnson City, where Mr. Bloomer is a patient. Will you start out giving me the, the date and...where, the place of your birth, a little of your childhood days, why you came to Johnson City, and while in Johnson City or in this locale, how you earned your living?
Harry: Well, well, I mean, I came to Johnson City when I was a small boy. I lost my Dad and my Dad put me away, and so, ah, my Mother didn’t want me. So, when I got to a certain age, after I got to a certain age, then I got transferred to another institution, and I ran away from that one. And then I, then...then the depression came on, so, I…depression come on, so I was, I couldn’t read, couldn’t write. It was just my own name, so I joined, ah, joined the Army. And, ah, and [cough] after I joined the Army, why, I come out with an Honorable Discharge, and…and I, four years and seven months, I was in the Artillery first, then from the Artillery, I went to, ah, I went to the Medical Corps, and from the Medical Corps, and then I got discharged. And then I come home, and I couldn’t buy a job, so I’ve been a clown all my life. Used to clown up to the soldiers and every day that I could, and after I clowned up and everything. And then one day, they wrote a, couldn’t find the guy that was, that was going to be the Santa Claus. And, ah, so they couldn’t find him, so after, so they’re, so after the Chamber of Commerce, ah, got ahold of me. And after they got ahold of me, said, “I’m gonna make a Santa Claus out of ya.” I said, “Whoa, wait just a minute - difference between a Santa Claus and a difference between Santa Claus, and, eh, difference between, and, ah…a clown is between day, day, ah, day and night.
Dan: Right.
Harry: So…
Dan: Okay.
Harry: So, I said, “The difference between day, a day and night,” and ah, “What do you mean, you like children?” Well, I knew how to handle ‘em. “You’ve been a clown. And, eh, you know what…how to act with ‘em.” Stuff like that. I says, “Yeah, I know I do. But it’s, difference between, ah…” I says, “Well, I’ll try it.” So, I says, “You got a suit?”
He says, “No, I haven’t got a suit. But,” he says, uh, “we’ll get you one.” And he got me one, and it was the worst one I ever saw. It was handmade, and it was a rubber mask, with a, a hot cotton, batten beard on it. And it was the hottest thing I’d had ever got ahold of. And I begin to like it, and so, happen next year, so I says, “Well,"" I says, who’ll be it next year?”
“Well, you did such a good job, we’re going to let you have it.”
Then I found out where this school was in Albion, New York.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: And, ah, so I went to Albion, New York, and I, I said, “Is this the place where you get your, your wig and beard?” He says, “Yes, this is the place. But I only got one left - I’m going to New York, but I guess I can wait on you.” So, he says, “You want that wig and beard real bad, don’t ya?” I said, “Sure, I really want it, no matter what the price is; I don’t give a care. I want the suit, and I want the wig and beard.”
So, Charlie showed me how to put it on, and he said to me, ah, and he said, and Charlie says, I kept feeling my pocket, looking at the suit; feeling my pocket, looking at the suit. “You really want that,” he says. “Really want it?”
“Charlie,” I said, “I’m not married and nobody has to bawl me out when I come home. ‘How much money did you spend?’ And, ah, ‘What kind of, what kind of good time, good time did you have?’ and stuff like that. And if I come home broke…well, that’s my business ‘cause I’m all by, I’m all by myself.” And so, I went then and bought the suit and brought it home. And Charlie says, “If you, if you’re gonna make it your professional out of it, I’d advise you to have two, two suits in case of an accident - the show, it gotta go on.”
And I said, “By the way, Charlie, what do you use for your makeup for your face?”
He says, “See, you’re a better salesman than I am. Well,” he says, “You, ah, need three things - your powder. Use, ah, a white lead pencil. And, uh…when you use rouge, and then you, then you use your mirror. Mirror. And you take your time putting it on, in mirror - you don’t plaster it on. When, when you take your…you put it over your eyes, you don’t plaster it on. You just go very, very lightly. Very lightly. Like you just come in, out of, out of the cold ‘cause your face been frostbitten or something. And then on your face, you put rouge. And after you rub that all off, you rub that all off because, uh, it makes you look pas- you come in with rosy cheeks. And so, uh…then, then...then I, ah, I floated around. I went 25 years to that school. And one year, 25 years [inaudible], and, well, I, I took sick. I didn’t want to miss the school, but my Doctor said I’d better, I’d better miss it this year, then I might be alright the next year. So, I said, “Okay, whatever you say, Doc.” So, I, I missed it. And the day the school opened, I cried like a baby [begins crying] because I never missed a year.
Dan: 25 years?
Harry: Yeah. My profession.
Dan: And this was the school in Albion?
Harry: Albion…it was in Albion, but it was-
Dan: Pardon?
Harry: It’s in Bay City, Michigan now because Charlie died, see.
Dan: Now you talk about - what’s Charlie’s last name?
Harry: Charlie W. Howard.
Dan: How do you spell that last name?
Harry: You know what? I never went to school, so I couldn’t tell ya.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah…
Sue: Howard.
Dan: Howard.
Sue: H-O-W-A-R-D. [spelling]
Dan: Okay.
Harry: So anyway, through going up there, and he said, “Don’t worry, Harry. You’re not gonna lose any time for it because you’re, you’re a real goodness, professional Santa Claus. And when I mean you do it…you don’t come up here for thanks just to put it on to scare the kids or give them a lot of hooey or stuff like that; you tell ‘em the truth. And, and you’re willing to…what you learn.” So, I went up the year after I took sick and I said this really…I can’t remember her name, but anyway, she was my nurse and she took me all around, and she really stuck by me, and she still sticks by me.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: And, ah, then I hear…ah, I called him up again this year one time, and I said, “They’re gonna make me again, Charlie.”
“Well, no, you’re not gonna…you’re not gonna lose anything over it because you, you’re always…you know your business.”
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: So, anyway, come home…and, ah, when I come home from there, a guy comin’ over, a guy come over to my my house one night from the newspapers. And he wanted, ah, tape…tape a couple of tapes off how, how I got to be a Santa.
“Well,” I says, “There’s all my books here, there’s over 35 books of pictures of everywhere I go, everything I take. And when I’m not playing Santa Claus, I’m playing Blinky the, Blinky the Clown at the Pairs.”
I used to work at the grandstand and sell apples and peanuts and stuff like that. I sell ‘em, “Here, here comes the lousy peanut man, trying to get rid of them just as fast as he can.”
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: And then one woman said to me one day, “What have ya got?”
I says, “I’ve got candy apples; they’re dipped in glue; a couple of worm holes; it’s all up to you; sweet on the outside; sour on the in; the red gets all over your chin.”
Dan: [chuckles]
Harry: Then I’d come back the next day: “Hey, you’ve got nothing but popcorn.”
“Oh, yes - I have,” says I, [inaudible] and I came to spend my rotten corn. “Last year a kernel, this year a pop; when we get to you, it won’t be so hot.”
And, ah…one woman says, “Ya talk like that all the time.”
And I says, “Yeah. If I don’t get ya, my voice will; I’ll get your money before you get over the hill.”
Dan: [chuckles]
Harry: And she says, “See? You’re not only a poet like that,” and when you write it in the paper and it says, “He’s not only a poet, but he’s also a politician.” And so, the kids one day, says, “Hey, Santa. How’d you get here with no snow?”
“I fly high and I fly low; and I find land; that’s how I go.”
Dan: [chuckles]
Harry: Now…[inaudible] And then this family says, “Did you bring Rudolph?”
I said, Yes, I brought Rudolph.” But I says, ah…hm, “He won’t want to go this year.”
“Why not?”
“Did you ever see a deer go why, why, without snow?”
“No.”
“Well, then Rudolph won’t go.”
Dan: Hm.
Harry: But, I…next year, I told ‘em I’d try to play it again as, as...as sick as I was. And so, ah, I put my outfit and suit on - played, ah, quite, ah…clubs, and the big clubs and stuff like that. And did my best. And then they says, “Hey, did you bring Rudolph this year?”
I said, “Yeah.” I said, “But I’m having trouble.”
“What you mean?”
I said, “Tricky Dick won’t give me no gas; I can’t get the helicopter off the grass.”
Dan: [lightly chuckles]
Harry: And I says, “Did you bring Rudolph?”
I says, “Yeah. I can’t use, use him, either.”
“Well, why can’t ya?”
“‘Cause,” I says, “Tricky Dick, he, he shut off the lights; can’t light up his nose…”
Dan: [chuckles]
Harry: “Can’t see which way he goes.”
Dan: “Uh-huh.”
Harry: “I, I hope Tricky Dick is out of the office ‘cause next time, everything will be, will be alright.” And this year I tried to play…I said, “Well, don’t gang me this year because Santa Claus is in tough shape.”
One little boy came to me: “What do you mean, ‘tough shape’?”
I says, “Yeah, I brought Rudolph, but he’s awful mean this year. Terrible mean.”
Dan: Yeah.
Harry: “What do you mean?”
I says, “Awful mean.” I says, “I went up to feed him…when I went out to feed him, he hauled right off from me, and he kicked me. So, I can’t let nobody sit on my lap th-…for this year.”
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: I said, “You’re not mad at Santa because you can’t sit on Santy’s lap?”
“Oh, no.”
I said, “We’ll find him just the same.”
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: And like that. So, I went through my act the best way I could. And I got bleeding, and…
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: …Sick again. And they…
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: And they put me back in.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: And that was my Santa Claus days.
Dan: Whe-where were you born, Harry?
Harry: I was born in Cortland.
Dan: Cortland?
Harry: Uh, yeah. I was born in Cortland.
Dan: Now, you mentioned your Dad put you away.
Harry: My Mother put me away.
Dan: Your Mother put you away…away, where?
Harry: In a home in Cortland.
Dan: In a home in Cortland?
Harry: Yeah.
Dan: For, for, uh, children?
Harry: Yeah.
Dan: I see.
Harry: And then, uh…I started a certain age, they put me up on the Hudson to a feeble-minded home, and people said, “What is that guy? Is he a nut?”
“Well,” I says, “If I’m, if, if I’m not, if I’m a nut, I’m a tough nut if I was cracked.”
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: And I said, “I make, what do you make?”
I says, “You’re making a lot of noise.”
I says, “I…I’m making a buck or two.”
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: “So, make all the noise that’s…and call me anything that you want.”
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: “‘Cause I’m making a buck between as a nut.”
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: “And if you want to learn what I do, I’m a member of a trade.”
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: And so…
Dan: Mm-hm. Now, uh, you mentioned the Chamber of Commerce wanted you to play Santa Claus. What Chamber of Commerce?
Harry: In, in Johnson City.
Dan: In Johnson City - how did you happen to come from - uh, where was this? The…?
Harry: This was after the War.
Dan: Yeah, but you - where was it on the Hudson that you were…?
Harry: Up on the Hudson.
Dan: Yeah - how, how did you to-?
Harry: That’s good news: I ran away from that place.
Dan: You ran away from there, and how did you happen to come to Johnson City?
Harry: Well, I worked my way toward home.
Dan: Towards Cortland?
Harry: Yeah. Yeah, ‘till I found my folks and then my folks didn’t want me. I couldn’t find a job, so I…I picked up my own work.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: Mowing lawns, and anywhere I could pick up a penny here or a penny there, and try to make people happy.
Dan: Right. Now, you appeared, of course, before a lot of groups and organizations as Santa Claus.
Harry: Yeah.
Dan: Now, did you go to individual houses?
Harry: Mm-hm.
Dan: Were you out for hire?
Harry: Um-hm.
Dan: And what was your busiest season? I mean, was it the week before Christmas?
Harry: It…it was, ah, Christmas Eve night.
Dan: Christmas Eve night. Now, you weren’t - you, you don’t drive a car, do you?
Harry: No, I don’t drive.
Dan: Now, how did you get from house to house?
Harry: Well, I had a good driver. I decorated my sleigh all up, and I named, and I named him, “Rudolph.”
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: I says, “Well, Rudolph is now all ready for a night.” Then, we keep the same addresses every year. Sometimes we get new ones, sometimes old, younger ones are growed out of it. And so, I always had new ones coming in.
Dan: But, I mean, how did you get from one house to another?
Harry: In the car.
Dan: In the car?
Harry: Yeah.
Dan: I see…uh-huh. And, ah, Harry, would you mind telling me, I mean, how much you got for each one of your performances - I mean, to go to a residence? You know, to play Santa Claus?
Harry: Well, sometimes I got nothin’.
Dan: Sometimes, you got nothing.
Harry: I didn’t get a penny.
Dan: Is that right?
Harry: But it ain’t, it ain’t for the penny.
Dan: It’s, it’s…that’s right - it’s self-satisfaction. Mm-hm. Ah, what awards have you had, geh, Harry?
Harry: Well, the highest award I ever had was, ah, was, ah…Red Ruby.
Dan: Red Ruby?
Harry: Red Ruby. From the Santa Claus school - I went there for 25 years.
Dan: That’s in Albion?
Harry: Mm-hm. Yeah.
Dan: Uh-huh…now, what is the Red Ruby award?
Harry: Well, Red Ruby stands for everlasting fire that never goes out.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: For the, for the good deeds you did.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: Towards other people.
Dan: Uh-huh. Now, during the Bicentennial year, you, as I understand, you portrayed Uncle Sam.
Harry: Yes. I went out, crazy enough. I went out, tried, bought myself an Uncle Sam suit. But, I didn’t have no beard at first.
Dan: You’ve still retained the beard, haven’t you? [laughs]
Harry: Yeah. Somebody, somebody said, “Hey, Uncle Sam’s supposed to have a beard.”
I says, “I, I know that.” I says, I says, “Don’t worry about it.” I says, “I’ll put my razor away. And I’ll see what, then I’ll see what Uncle Sam will do.” First thing I know, it come out a perfect white and shaped right up - didn’t have to color it, tie it, or nothing. So, I said, “Here comes Uncle Sam; dirty old man; takes your money as fast as he can.”
Dan: [laughs]
Harry: “Takes your money and takes your dough - won’t give it back, where you go.” Hello. What do you want?
[Interruption over Public Address system]
Dan: Um, Harry, is there anything else that you’d like to tell me? You had a banquet here some time ago that the notables of the Triple Cities put on for you, honoring you for your-
Harry: Well…
Dan: -public service.
Harry: Well, when I got out of the hospital.
Dan: This was, what? About a year ago? Mm-hm.
Harry: And I didn’t know nothin’ about it.
Dan: It was a surprise party. Uh-huh.
Harry: [crying; words inaudible] -light up the trees. And then they, they presented me with a live Christmas, Christmas tree.
Dan: A live Christmas tree?
Harry: Yeah, in the park.
Dan: I see.
Harry: So, then I told ‘em…I says, “Well, I tell you all,” I says, “When the tree gets big and tall, you can come in and decorate it all.”
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: So, I says, “Now, you’ve got a swing out there.” And I says, “When, uh…when the tree begins to, to grow,” I said…I said, “Out in the…out in my swinging, and now, and I’ll watch it grow.”
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: I told ‘em.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: And so, I always had little ditties, little poems here for different people-
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry -and stuff like that, you know?
Dan: Were there any other characters that you portrayed other than Santa Claus, Blinky the Clown, and Uncle Sam?
Harry: Well, the real ones was the…see, I’ve been a clown all, all of my life. And then I came in, in on the Santa Claus deal…and then, then...then I was up, I was up to Albion. Charlie said to me, “You outta, you outta make a good, eh…Easter Rabbit.”
“A rabbit?” I says. “Whaddaya mean, a rabbit?”
He says, “You make such a good Santy Claus…""
Dan: [laughing]
Harry: “…And you know how to act…you know how to [inaudible] without breaking into them, and you know not to talk when you don’t have to. So, you outta make darn good Peter Rabbit.” And so, I got the business for, of playing, uh, the Peter Rabbit for, for the Schweiners, and help to count them egg hunt Easter eggs. Stuff like that.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: Sometimes, they’d give me something for it, and sometime they wouldn’t. But it all come from the heart.
Dan: Yeah. Well, you, you’ve managed to be self-sustaining over all these, all these years, uh, Harry.
Harry: Yeah.
Dan: In spite of the fact that you can’t read nor write, I mean, I think you’ve done remarkable.
Harry: Yeah.
Dan: Is there anything else you’d like to add at all?
Harry: Well, let’s see, uh…
Dan: Is there any other awards that you received outside the Ruby award at the Albion?
Harry: No, not exactly. Uh…some of the boys didn’t like me coming up there quite so many times - it took me 25 years. And Charlie - before Charlie died - he said, “If I know you, you’re gonna be the first man to walk out of this school with that Red Ruby on.”
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: He says, I said, “No, Charlie.”
He says, “I’m telling ya.” He says, “Harry, if you’re not here - if you’re gone before I am - you’re gonna be the first man to walk out.”
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: And he says, “It’s because you’re gonna make a good Santa Claus.”
Dan: Uh-huh. Now, when you went up there during these 25 years, when you returned, Harry, what did you do - teach the other…?
Harry: Well…
Dan: Fellas that wanted to, uh…the trade?
Harry: Well, I wanted, I wanted to, to portray like that. If I still live and I get better, I might exactly do that. But, I, I never take away anybody else’s trade.
Dan: I see.
Harry: Never.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: If they wanna learn, they can spend their money like I did.
Dan: Yeah.
Harry: I’ll always be glad to help ‘em, explain it to ‘em, and tell them where they make their mistakes. If they don’t like it, then they can save their money, and they can, they can go up to the school.
Dan: How much did it cost for you to go that school?
Harry: Well, when I first went to school there it cost me 20, $125.00. And then they cut it down to, ah, $75.00 - try to get more men to come.
Dan: Yep.
Harry: That was a refreshing course.
Dan: Yeah.
Harry: And then they cut it down to 50. And he left it that way - left it, left it down to 50.
Dan: I see.
Harry: And, ah…and Charlie says, “Don’t let anybody kid ya, Harry, at all: You did this alone.”
Dan: Mm-hm. How, how, uh, many weeks was the original course when you went there?
Harry: [inaudible] -cost.
Dan: When you went, when it was-
Harry: Hundred-
Dan: $125.00?
Harry: Oh, it was about…it was about two weeks, it started.
Dan: Two weeks?
Harry: Yeah. Because, see, the school was just startin’ to be...
Dan: Yeah.
Harry: He, he just started buildin’ it.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: It was between Charlie (W-H-I) and, and, ah…and, and May. Maple Jone.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: And he, ah…got them together. And he, he got them together. And he went to New York, helping him all over. We went to Macy’s, he says, “Oh, my God. I,” he says, “I can’t find better-lookin’ Santa Clauses than that.” Heaven bets. And Macy says, “Why in the world don’t you start a school? And put better-lookin’ men in this, in, in this school?”
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: “Better-looking Santa Claus?” And so I go around and check ‘em. I see a boy – a fellow with brown shoes and black puttees, and I said, “By the way.” I says, “Did you ever go to Santa Claus school?”
And he says, “No, why?”
Well, I says...ah, “Don’t you want to go to school?”
“Do ya have to?”
I said, “No, you...you don’t have to. It costs ya money no matter where you go; you’re never gonna take a penny with ya when you go...
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry:...But you’ll be...[begins sobbing]
Dan: Okay, that’s alright, Harry...ah...
Harry: He, he killed that.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: I says, “Please think.” I says, “Playing Santa Claus; there’s not many that are very nice.”
So, what point they need is: “How much money you make playing Santa Claus?
I looked at him, and I says, “Is that what you came up here for?”
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: Make a little thing like that – go right back.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: So, I says, “You’ll never make a Santa Claus.”
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: Says, “You mean to tell me
you see a Santa every three or four over there, and some over there, that you hadn’t, haven’t the opportunity to charge...”
Dan: Mm-hm.
Harry: “...then you’d never be a Santa Claus?”
Dan: Yep; right. Not from the heart.
Harry: Right.
Dan: Not from the heart. Okay, Harry, you think that’s about all you’d like to tell me today?
Harry: Well, you like - that’s how I got to be Santa Claus.
Dan: That’s how you got to be Santa Claus.
Harry: Yeah.
Dan: And sold peanuts and popcorn at the ballpark.
Harry: Yeah. And he says, “Come and get your stinkin’, rotten peanuts!”
Dan: [Dan laughing]
Harry: And said, “The longer you wait, the rottener they get.” I used to tell them that.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Harry: [unintelligible]
Dan: Well, for the sake of the archives, ah, Harry, why don’t we get your nurse’s name here on tape?
Harry: Um...
Sue: Sue Romanaski.
Dan: Sue?
Sue: Romanaski.
Dan: Romanaski.
Sue: Mm-hm.
Harry: Yeah.
Dan: And you’re a nurse, are you, Sue?
Sue: Yeah, I’m an RN.
Dan: You’re an RN?
Sue: Yeah.
Dan: At the hospital here?
Sue: At Ideal Hospital. I’m-
Dan: Oh, at Ideal.
Sue: When Harry was having his operation last October, I was a student nurse.
Dan: I see.
Sue: And I went through the operation with him and everything.
Dan: Mm. And you stuck with him.
Sue: Yep.
Harry: Good.
Sue: I used to go over and read his letters to him, write his mail, and take him shopping, and things like that.
Dan: Uh-huh. Well, God bless you. Well, Harry, would you like me to play this back for ya?
Harry: Yeah.
Dan: Okay.
Article: Tribute Paid to memory of ‘Mr. Santa Claus’
By: George Basler
""God knows the world needs more Harry Bloomers.""
This statement by Bernard Fionte, news director of WNBF radio, summed up the feelings of many today toward Harry Bloomer, who for 36 years played Santa Claus for thousands of Johnson City children.
[Image Caption: 'Mr. Santa Claus'. Depicts Harry Bloomer in his Santa Claus outfit, looking down at a piece of parchment held in his two hands.]
Bloomer, 71, who was nicknamed ""Mr. Santa Claus"" because he played the role for so long, died yesterday at Wilson Memorial Hospital after a long battle with cancer.
""He was one of the most irreplacable people I've known,"" said Fionte, who emceed a tribute to Bloomer at Johnson City High School in 1976. ""I think it's a dreadful loss to the community.""
Bloomer was sick for more than a year, but until the very end he never gave up fighting. Last January he was still looking forward to playing Santa Claus for local children next Christmas. But, for the last week or so, Bloomer knew the end was near, his friends said.
""I saw him last Wednesday night, and he had put his trust in God. He said God knows best,"" said the Rev. Richard D. Christen, pastor of the First Baptist Church in Johnson City, which Bloomer attended for more than 30 years. ""He was a man of good faith with respect to the community, and he was a man of real faith with respect to God,"" Christen added.
Another close friend, Patricia Morse, said, ""I'm glad it's over. He had suffered too long, and he was too good to suffer.”
At his request, Bloomer will be buried in his outfit of Blinky the Clown – a character he created during his years as a circus vendor. He also played Peter Rabbit and in the
summer of 1976 appeared as Uncle Sam at area parades and celebrations in honor
of the Bicentennial.
But, in a recent interview, he said, ""Way down deep in my heart, I think my favorite character is Santa Claus. It’s a lot of headaches sometimes, but I like to meet kids.""
He identified with the role so much that at one time he thought about being buried in one of his Santa Claus costumes. But, he decided against it because he said simply, ""Santa Claus lives forever. ""
Why was Bloomer so dedicated to playing Santa Claus? Christen theorized part of this dedication stemmed from his lack of parental love as a child. His childhood was spent in orphanages where, because of a stutter, he was overlooked by teachers and never learned to read or write. He finally ran away from an institution at the age of 15.
""Maybe he felt what he lacked as a boy, he could give to others,"" Christen said.
While Bloomer became a local legend during his years in Johnson City, an Evening Press article in July 1976 discovered that few knew the man behind the gaudy costumes and outrageous trappings. For the last 12 years of his life, Bloomer lived in a small $30-a-month basement apartment in Johnson City. He never married and never had any children. Ironically, the man who brought joy to so many persons at Christmas time usually spent his holiday alone.
But, Bloomer never became bitter. He called the testimonial that local residents organized in November 1976 a high point of his life, and added, ''I didn't think I had so many friends, but I have a lot of them.''
Louis Augostini, who organized the testimonial, said he saw Bloomer 10 days ago at the hospital, and ""he was preoccupied with expressing thanks to people for everything that's been done for him. “Of course, the real truth is that Harry did a lot for us,"" Augostini said.
""He was a very unselfish person. Playing Santa Claus was never a money maker for him. Maybe it just gave him a sense of pride to do something for the kids,"" Augostini added.
Bernard Brown, president of the Johnson City Businessmen's Association, said Bloomer was ""synonymous with Johnson City.""
""That was his life[,] to keep people happy...He was terrific. He'll be missed.""
Jean Kavulich, a friend of Bloomer's for more than 30 years, said simply, ""He was the children's idol.""
Funeral arrangements are being handled by the J.F. Rice Funeral Home in Johnson City. Director James Carey said the home is expecting large crowds during calling hours this afternoon and evening.
This evening the Frank A. Johnson American Legion Post, to which Bloomer belonged, will provide a special honor guard. The Last Man's Club (veterans of World War II) will also hold a special service at the home. Bloomer's funeral will be Saturday at 10 A.M. at First Baptist Church in Johnson City. His body will then be taken by a grandnephew, Terrence McCullough, for burial at a cemetery between Marathon and Cortland. McCullough was with Bloomer at the time of his death yesterday.
But even though he's gone, Bloomer's memory will live on, his friends said.
Morse said, “There is some talk of donating to Roberson Center one of Bloomer's Santa Claus suits and the certificates he received from the Santa Claus School in Michigan (a training school for Santa) that he attended for many years.”
[Image caption: Harry Bloomer. Depicts Harry Bloomer facing the camera, garbed in his Uncle Sam costume, and walking up a city street.]
For his part, Richard Barrons, curator of history at the center, said he'd welcome this donation. ""Harry was a great inspiration to many people,"" Christen said.
Morse noted simply, ""He didn't play Santa Claus - he was Santa Claus.''
Article: Blinky the Clown will get the epitaph he wished for
By: George Basler
Thanks to the efforts of a friend, Harry Bloomer's final wish has come true.
For 36 years Bloomer enchanted thousands of area children as Blinky the Clown and Santa Claus. He made a career out of bringing good cheer to others, and in the process became one of Johnson City's most beloved residents. Before he died last April, after a long battle with cancer, Bloomer made two requests:
To be buried in his Blinky the Clown outfit because, he said, ""As long as I've been a clown there's no harm in going out that way. I just might want to entertain someone on the other side.”
And, to have a tombstone placed at his grave, with the simple inscription: ""Here lies Blinky the Clown. Doesn't know if he's going up or down. He just has to leave town.”
After Bloomer's estate was settled, there was no money left for the tombtone.
[Image Caption: Harry Bloomer...in 1976. Depicts a portrait shot of Harry Bloomer in his Uncle Sam costume in a city environment; the white top hat is of prominence.]
[Image Caption: Linc Haller polishes the tombstone of his friend, Horry Bloomer. Depicts Linc Haller squatting next to Harry Bloomer’s tombstone in a cemetary, which depicts an artist’s rendition of the character alongside the inscription that Harry wished for.]
[Image Taken By: Frank Woodruff]
But Howard L. ""Linc"" Haller, the former owner of the Binghamton-Johnson City Monument Co., remembered a promise he had made to his friend.
""For the past 20 years Harry would see me in the post office or on the street, and he'd say, 'Don't forget when I die what I want on my tombstone.' It got to be an old story,” Haller said. “When he had his last sickness, I went up to see him in the hospital and promised him he’d get his wish.”
ln July, Haller and Robert Traver, current owner[s] of the monument company, wrote Bloomer's grand-nephew in Syracuse for a picture of Bloomer in his Blinky the Clown outfit so it could be engrav d on the tombstone. They then ordered the tombstone, just like Bloomer wanted it from their factory in Johnstown. The tombstone arrived last week, and next week Haller and Traver will move it to Virgil, where Bloomer’s grave is.
Haller made it clear he's not doing this for publicity, but because of the promise he made to Bloomer. He seemed embarrassed by the notoriety.
''Don't play me up too much,'' he said. ""I told Harry he would have a marker, and that’s all there is to it.”
The granite tombstone has the Blinky the Clown poem and the engraving of Bloomer in his clown costume on one side. On the other side is the simple inscription, “Harry Bloomer. 1907-1978.""
Haller acknowledged that some people might think the poem is inappropriate for a tombstone, but ""that's just what Harry wanted.”
And anyone who thinks it's inappropriate didn’t know Bloomer very well.
Every Christmas for more than three decades the portly man, dressed in one of his three red[,] velvet suits and a fluffy white beard, walked the village streets handing out candy to the children. He also played Santa Claus for village merchants and clubs[,] and every year visited the Wilson Memorial Hospital pediatrics ward. Besides Kris Kringle, Bloomer also played Peter Rabbit, Uncle Sam during the 1976 Bicentennial, and Blinky the Clown, a character he originated during his years as a circus vendor at fairs thoughout the Southern Tier.
He became known as ""Mr Santa Claus,” but his own life was far from a fairy tale.
A lifelong bachelor, Bloomer worked as a laborer and carnival barker. He spent his early years in an orphanage and his last years in a dingy, $30-a-month basement apartment
in Johnson City. Those who knew him said he loved children so much because he was so neglected during his own childhood.
Despite the bad breaks life dealt him, Bloomer was a man who enjoyed life, Haller said.
“He certainly made a lot of other people enjoy it, kids especially.”
",,,,"00:23 Seconds ; 33:45 Minutes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Harry Bloomer",,,,1978-03-16,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Bloomer, Harry -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.); Cortland (N.Y.); Santa Claus Bicentennial; Uncle Sam; Blinky the Clown",2017-03-27,,,,,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0bd4951e62bf06f5d3ca925f505db15e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/35eec4e118fd0ded95d515af759724e9.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/adeb8cb6d1785863b26272fee1191fe7.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/91346c9b1786f39e4a8fa2fb78cf59b1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e397b4018f5cfd507401996d8f9fb8f1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1452bcc5b62b133552c796787246985e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7491f25519b2d2aa45bbd35ef2dd0170.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fe741561786c2de9afc673c531a8e91e.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a0d0ff1a0e106da5ab0e99792dc2be37.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c2147a3ff31091e22893d5d0002f2a9c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2380e8653934562dea5509e9345f4052.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ec3566bfbee6071ef03b08288b4de86d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b73572d4e09c889a68395c07f31bf5c0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3cc81e8ba3970e187cd64d856741f858.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fae5e8c3dc1101b635850789aeb00a19.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5d45b2dac1e54b653beb17f29e3d9d41.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/23f6e15657293bc2201a050d6512df91.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1fbf0507d143257ccb7f6f9a44cfc07c.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 551,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/551,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Michael Gruss ",,,,audio/mp3,"Gruss, Michael -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.); Pennsylvania; Coal mines and mining; Endicott Johnson Corporation--Employees--Interviews; Cigar industry; Polish language; Russian language; Slovak language; Ukrainian language","Michael Gruss speaks of his youth in Pennsylvania and working in the coal mines there. He was a licensed black powder blaster and he describes what this entails. He moved to Johnson City in 1913 to work for the Endicott Johnson Corporation and acted as an unofficial labor mediator for the company. He reflects briefly on witnessing the overall factory [Binghamton Clothing Company] fire and trying to help the factory workers. He describes the cigar industry in Binghamton's First Ward and the workers' attempt to unionize. He worked with Dr. Mary Ross as her driver and assisted her on home visits. He was competent in Polish, Russian, Slovak and Ukrainian languages. ",,"Binghamton University Libraries",,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fa",,English,Sound,"Recording 67",,"Caganek, Anna","Gruss, Michael ",,,,,," 33:20 Minutes ; 14:01 Minutes ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Michael Gruss",,,,1978-01-05,,"Broome County Oral History Project","Gruss, Michael -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.); Pennsylvania; Coal mines and mining; Endicott Johnson Corporation--Employees--Interviews; Cigar industry; Polish language; Russian language; Slovak language; Ukrainian language Binghamton Clothing Company; Dr. Mary Ross",2017-03-27,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/91ce51d1336897568191e490d097ced0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1ab5b2740583351190215f0d47eae301.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dab1a0466bc31ecfc8549786b1129ba1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c6f64c336de72c075386447fc3d7bc15.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/400afbcfc6a1a40e536fcf0b575f7950.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/85d64c326fb4026c6f0d8aba448087b2.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ced340f95795a8fcf87b334e02b6aa36.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fe646d5c6dc6c46e220be5e857cddc28.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/346e1be8e6121d1f086047245bfcb8b8.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/befc091589c101ce13ef19c2a1e20ed1.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1d249cde0e2d9fd2a62ce400745788ab.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5112e23562512bf25e2c0cc04aa929bf.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6742b125e3de01ea37eec4fbc36ceb4d.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/914b46031b530009245607fd4bcb9dc0.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ad21fa6e08b95bf1fb87e1c41b80962b.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ca56c5d921379c32f30408ef85432121.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8f46397683ac1fa3d249d9309e4d933c.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f857cf261173d985a055ea1f185bbde3.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/88d56f478eecc0086a04bcd784791e14.jpg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f9ff0455841091f6929049418f8eb4ad.jpg","Template: Universal Viewer / Rosetta","Broome County Oral History Project",1,0 552,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/552,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Michael Gruss",,,,audio/mp3,"Gruss, Michael -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.)","Michael Gruss speaks about Willis Sharpe Kilmer, his horses and the Swamp Root Medicine he produced.",,"Binghamton University Libraries",,"This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.",,English,Sound,"Recording 68",,"Caganek, Anna","Gruss, Michael ",,"Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Michael Gruss
Interviewed by: Anna Caganek, Dan O'Neil, Joe Newcomb, Nettie Politylo
Date of interview: 30 January 1978
Dan: Okay. Uh, when will this be, uh…?
Joe: Oh, it’ll be, uh…it’ll be a little while. We’ll let you all know when it’s gonna be out; it’ll probably be a couple’a weeks.
Dan: Couple’a weeks?
Joe: Couple weeks we get to…permission. That, We’ll have a couple more to talk with, eh…some other people [unintelligible]
Michael: And then you’re all through with that.
Joe: Yeah, we’re all done for now.
Michael: Yeah.
Joe: Yeah.
Dan: [chuckles]
Nettie: That was really interesting, Mr. Gruss.
Michael: Now, I thought maybe you’d want a picture there taken of that shrine in the back.
Joe: Uh, what’s that?
Michael: Huh?
Joe: Shrine?
Michael: You go toe - go through the-
Dan: Y-y-you can show - yeah. You can show him the, the, the shrine; it’s right through the back door there.
Michael: Wait, you go right, straight through - you look through that window there.
Nettie: Through that window.
[Cut to a bit later]
Michael: In the town, Vixen.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Michael: And that [unintelligible] was desperately, you know, against anything like that. Because yeah, he was one…
[Background noise interruption]
Dan: Huh, huh, go ahead. Yeah, it’s on now. Yeah. Yeah…
Joe: Yeah, we’ll be going back to the, uh…
Annie: Thank you very much.
Joe: Back to the office.
Annie: I appreciated hearing this story so - Endicott Johnson, especially. History.
Michael: How did you like that in the back? That shrine?
Annie: That’s part of your handiwork, huh?
Joe: That’s very nice. Very nice.
Annie: It’s a powerful tree.
Michael: You know, I thought maybe if one wanted a picture of that sometime, they could go down and take ‘em.
Joe: Yeah, okay. We-
[Unintelligible mix of voices]
Dan: Have you, eh…have you got any more of these here I could give to Joe? One to Joe?
Joe: What’s that?
Dan: This is a, this is a pin of the s-Johnson City Arch.
Joe: Oh, yeah. Yeah, you got any of those?
Nettie: We all got pins, but we all got one, yes.
Dan: Yeah.
Joe: Oh, did you? Good.
Nettie: So you have to have one, too.
Michael: There’s you.
Dan: That would be for a man.
Nettie: For a man, you gotta have the rum.
Michael: And, and you just got the one head over, the other head [unintelligible]-
Nettie: The rum, Mr. Gruss.
Michael: You have to have one of those. [clears throat]
Dan: Nah, that’s just-
Nettie: This one here.
[Unintelligible mix of voices]
Michael: No, the, the other [unintelligible]. Mm-hm.
Nettie: Oh, yeah.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: Yeah.
Michael: You got one?
Nettie: Yeah, I have a small one. Yeah, I have a small one.
Michael: That’s all I get out of 22 pounds.
Dan: Yeah [laughing].
Michael: No, I see it. Eh, eh, I’d have to get it for, for every room. Well, anyway…they cost - you see that…it cost, er, the shoes and [unintelligible]-
Joe: We don’t know if they can touch.
Dan: Brass, isn’t it?
Michael: Huh?
Dan: Brass, isn’t it?
Michael: No.
Dan: Brass, probably.
Michael: No, it was bronze.
Dan: Bronze?
Joe: Oh, yeah.
Dan: I imagine you could take-
[Unintelligible mix of voices]
Michael: And I have to get from every room - for all the ages - how many male, how many female. Go to each room, and I put it in an envelope, and put mark that down there, and that’s - put on my suggestion: 10 cents a piece.
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: And that, that’s what it cost, ebeh, when I, eh, had to mail.
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: And that’s, everybody got ‘em because everybody was 100 back then for, eh, you know…E. J. Well, you know what they did years ago. My job was, eh - during the wintertime, they - every week there’d be two cargos of oranges or fruit. And, and we had four rows in, eh, Florida, you know.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Michael: E. J.’s.
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, so we, eh…I was down there. Well, Patterson. He used to be the market master. And, eh, they sent two cargos here: One for Endicott, one for Binghamton.
Joe: Right.
Michael: So they sold the tops.
Joe: Right.
Michael: 50 cents a pack for your oranges. Three if it was all, all right there on the tree. Because if it was on every car, there had to be two men.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Michael: See, when your left floor - they’re in Florida, when they loaded, they had to put ice in there.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Michael: But, when you got to the cold country, you had to dump the ice. And, uh, light these kerosene lamps to decide - so they wouldn’t freeze.
Joe: Do you remember anything about the Kilmer, eh…Swamp Root factory?
Michael: The what?
Dan: Kilmer Swamp Root? Do you remember anything about the Kilmer Swamp Root?
Michael: Oh, yeah. Willis Sharpe Kilmer?
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: Oh, yes! I knew him good.
Dan: Hm, did you?
Michael: Everybody said he was a mean - he had that, um…place there, eh…bought up [Route] 17…uh…Sky Lake.
Joe: Mm-hm.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Michael: Yes. See, my son was doing some floor work up in there, and I had to have some more tile.
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: And there come up - drove up in there. And Willis was up in there. And, eh…he said, “You got any business here?”
I said, “I sure have.” Said, “I’m bringing some tile up here for my son.”
He said, “Who?”
I said, “John.”
He says, “Is that your son?”
I said, “Yes.”
“Ooooh!” He grabbed, he said, “Let’s goin’ up in there.”
He helped me to carry it there. He had four buildings here and two lakes.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Michael: He said, “Gee.” He says, “I’m glad to meet you. I got every - take ‘em.” He says, “Anytime you wanna come in here, come.” And he said, “The place is yours.”
Dan: Uh-huh.
Michael: Yeah, he was awful, awful nice.
Dan: George, George Ely was his Treasurer.
Michael: Huh?
Dan: George Ely was his Treasurer.
Michael: Yeah. Well…
Dan: As I understand it, there was-
Michael: I think there was a, eh…wh-where, uh, there’s whatcha call there…? That Slovak cemetery. That whole place, all the way up to the top - that’s where his barns were for his horses.
Joe: Did he have a race track there?
Michael: Yes - big race track.
Dan: That was on Riverside Dr., though?
Michael: Riverside Dr.
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: There was no Riverside Dr. at that time because that was all fenced in up ‘till that hill there.
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: And there was all barns up in there. You take for instance, eh, the horses. [clears throat] You can see today, they’re all in bronze. Was you ever up to the Kilmer Ceme-Cemetery?
Dan: Yeah, that’s, uh, that’s, uh, LaFrance Cemetery on Morgan Rd.
Michael: Where?
Dan: LaFrance Cemetery on Morgan Rd.
Michael: Right. Yeah.
Dan: They’ve got a monument to Exterminator.
Michael: Exterminator. And the other one there is, eh…
Dan: Sun Briar.
Michael: Sun Briar.
Dan: And, yeah.
Michael: That was the fastest horse. That, that, the horse brought him money.
Dan: Exterminator won the Derby.
Michael: Yeah.
Dan: That was a last-minute switch.
Michael: Yeah.
Dan: Yeah.
Michael: He was, he was, you’ll see, you’ll see there’s other animals in there: Dogs, and cats, and everything.
Dan: Yeah, yeah.
Michael: Am I right? There’s monuments all around there.
Dan: [clears throat] He’s got one big plot.
Michael: Yeah.
Dan: There, it’s very well-kept.
Michael: Yep.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Michael: You know, uh…everyone said he was a mean guy, and this and that.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Michael: Well, I didn’t find him that way.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: What other association did you have with him?
Michael: Wi’im?
Joe: Yeah.
Michael: Not - no kind of a personal association at all.
Joe: I see, I just wanted to-
Michael: It was just that way.
Joe: Yeah.
Michael: Meet him that way, and I always found him very, very good.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Michael: Because you see, uh, here, when he died? Everybody was, yelled that there were out, said this and that. They told me, they said, “Well, why don’t you put your name in there? You’ll get something, anyway.”
I said, “No, I don’t want anything.”
Nettie: [laughs]
Michael: “Don’t want anything that don’t belong to me.”
But I’ll tell you, as far I was concerned? I thought Willis Sharpe Kilmer was a very good man.
Dan: Yeah.
Joe: Now, did he found the company or was it his father?
Michael: Huh?
Joe: Did he found the company or was it his father?
Michael: Well, I’ll tell you the truth about it. He had a brother. And his brother, ah, eh, made that swamp root medicine.
Dan: Right.
Michael: Am I right?
Dan: Right.
Michael: I mean, he stole the patent.
Dan: That’s right. That’s, that’s where he-
Joe: Who, who did, now?
Michael: Willis.
Dan: Wi-Wi-Willis and his father-
Michael: [chuckles]
Dan: -stole the patent from [chuckles] the uncle.
Michael: Am I right?
Dan: Right.
Joe: Well, wa-was it his father or was it Willis?
Michael: It’s his brother.
Joe: Yeah. But, who stole the patent?
Michael: Willis stole it from his brother.
Joe: I see, alright. Okay.
Dan & Nettie: [chuckles]
Michael: You see, they had to, whatcha call it…? Had it, eh…you know, to have, eh, have patents made, it’s quite tricky.
Nettie: Right.
Joe: Yeah. Now, who’s - who was Dr. Kilmer? The one they used in the advertising? They called it, “Dr. Kilmer.” Now, that was-
Michael: That was Willis Sharpe.
Annie: Thank you.
Joe: Oh, was that Willis?
Dan: Yeah, the thing-
Annie: -we can talk to you then.
Dan: Okay.
Annie: Thank you very much for letting us-
Michael: Yeah, it was nice here.
Annie: Thank you.
Michael: Yeah. Good talking to you.
Annie: We’ll talk to you soon.
Joe: Thank you.
Annie: Bye, nice to meet you.
Joe: We’ll let you know if there’s good - we’ll let you know if this is going to be on so you can watch yourself.
[Shared laughter]
Annie: We’ll tell you when. Okay?
Michael: Well, that’s, that’s the whole story.
[Unintelligible voices]
Dan: I, I, uh, I’ve got, uh, I’ve got that on another tape. Uh, uh, about the, uh…
Joe: Do you? Of Kilmer?
Dan: Kilmer, yeah.
Joe: Oh, okay.
Dan: Stealin’ that, stealin’ that-
Joe: Alright.
Dan: -eh, patent. But, eh, as I understand, of course, in those days-
Michael: You didn’t know it was a swamp root, did you?
Dan: Eh, yeah, yes, I knew it was not a swamp root. But, eh, in those days, advertising was such that it was, eh, eh, it was, it was shady. In other words, somebody would send me on, and would advertise a yard of soap for 10 cents.
Michael: Yeah.
Dan: So you’d send in your 10 cents and they’d send you a, a yard of soap thread.
Michael: Well…
Joe: Yeah, it was-
Michael: The thing is, know you take places like the First Ward. That’s where everybody came here to do their shopping. Everybody from whole [sic] Binghamton.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Michael: ‘Cause they had the stuff they needed. And you take for instance Dr. Mary Ross…she was 100%, she was, uh, as I said before, on maternity cases.
Joe: Yeah.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: Well, I think we-
Michael: And I couldn’t turn anybody down. I couldn’t, you know? People were poor. There was a lot of poor ones who, they-
Dan: [clears throat]
Michael: But, I still say what they love - what we need over here…we need a good shopping center and a good drug store. We have no drug store.
Dan: No.
Joe: You keep plugging that.
Michael: Huh?
Joe: You-
[Tape cuts to sometime later]
Dan: This concludes a televised interview with Mr. Michael Gruss of 10 Phelps St., Binghamton, New York.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Herbert Levine
Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo
Date of interview: 15 September 1978
Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Herbert Levine of Hazard Hill Rd., Binghamton, [New York] on September 15, 1978.
Herbert: Is the microphone in here?
Nettie: Herb, will you tell us about your life and experiences in the community?
Herbert: Yeah, well, let me just use this as a guide. Okay? [clears throat] Um, first, I think we ought to talk about my father's background in, uh…in Europe. My father was born in Kharkov in Russia, actually the Ukraine. And, um…as a youngster, the family later moved to Kiev - where he grew up. My father went to school until age 12 or 13. He went to a Russian school during the day, and at 3:00 in the afternoon went to a Hebrew school where he learned to read Hebrew and to, uh, learn about the, you know, prayers of the Jewish religion. After, um….after leaving school, at about 13 years of age, he went to work as an, uh, an apprentice to a German jeweler who lived in Russia - and just as we used to read about in the days of Charles Dickens, he lived in this man's place and slept on the floor and ate the food that was left over and that's, that’s what he did. And, ah, it's hard for us today to visualize just how they treated, eh, someone who was an apprentice. But he, he told of how one time he looked over the man's shoulder as he was working on a watch and fixing a watch - and the guy just knocked him for a loop and said, ""Lookit: When I'm ready to have you know what I'm doing - I'll show you. Until then, you just sweep the floor and do what you're supposed to do."" So, so that's what it was.
Um, [clears throat] part of the interesting background that my father's family was that his mother died when he was eight years old, leaving four children. Uh, for a father to bring up four young children in, in Europe at that time was almost impossible, so he married a woman who was a widow. And she had four children. So together, there was, eh, four of our kids, and four, uh…four of my kids, four of your kids [laughs], and then they had three children. So there was a family of 11…uh, let me see…10 of whom came here. 10 children and a mother and father left Russia in 1905 to, uh, come to America. Uh, the reason they left Russia at that time was that, uh, unrest was already beginning. The workers were beginning to march in protest against the Czar - the seeds of the rebellion, the revolution was starting. There was a tremendous pressure against the Jewish community. My father tells of meeting out in the woods where they had protest meetings, complaining about the Czar, and what they're doing, and how the Cossacks used to come riding on horses with whips and swinging, uh, whips around their heads and chasing the people through the woods after them, so they used to, used to get out. So the young, Jewish people, at that time, were conscripted into the army - were just drafted into the army - were put into the army for 20 - 25 years. His grandfather, he recalled, who lived with them as a boy, 10 - 12 years old was conscripted into the Russian army and served in the Russian army for 25 years. During this period of time, on numerous occasions, uh, somebody, I don't know who - whether they be soldiers, whatever - were interested in converting him to Christianity. And to make him bow down to the cross. Well, one of the facets, tenets of the Jewish religion, is that our interpretation of the Ten Commandments is that you don't bow down to anything, and it means don't bow down. So it means Jewish people don't bow. And he - my father's grandfather - used to show us the whip marks - scars on his back where he was whipped - to try to make him bow down and he just wouldn't do it. Never did. And so, that, that certainly re-enforced their, ah, feelings of religion because if their grandfather suffered through that, there’s something that you weren't going to give up in a hurry.
But, he left Russia at the age 15 - together with, uh, with all his family. And they left, came, you know, steerage - they took every, almost all the money they had, um, to pay for their way to come to America. And, um, and to America, they came. They landed in Ellis Island, as did most of the immigrants at that time: 1905. And there was a slight problem with my father's health. They checked his lungs and they weren’t too happy about it; they were almost to send them back because they were concerned about TB - tuberculosis. But, they finally let him through. When they came to America, they were greeted by some sort of a cousin, distant cousin or something who was going to set him up in business. And they gave him whatever money they had left and he just ran off with it. So that took care of all the money they had. Like many immigrants at that time, they settled in the lower East Side of New York City. All these people - 10 children and a father and mother - in a little, tiny apartment. And everybody went out to get a job. My father, having worked in a jewelry business, went to work at age 15 in a factory, in a jewelry factory that made watch cases - pocket watch cases. And he was a polisher, just as you see a guy working on shoes in E.J. polishing all day long? That's what he did; he worked on a polishing machine. We have to realize, at this time, that he came here speaking only Russian, Ukrainian and German - those were the only languages he knew at 15 when he came here. So, uh, he went to night school in New York City to learn English to be able to get along as best he could. Incidentally, they never spoke Jewish or Yiddish because the Russian Jews who came to America thought it was nekaltoorne - it was not cultured to speak a low language like Yiddish. So in their homes, they spoke Russian. And they continued to. So at age 15, he, he worked in this factory. And, uh, did for a couple, three years until he started having trouble with his lungs. It was working in the sweatshop with no ventilation and so for forth - it wasn't good for his health. So his father suggested to him he oughta work outside where it's, uh, health, er, healthy and vigorous. So my dad went to a school that was organized at that time by a Baron de Hirsch - was a wealthy Jewish philanthropist - set up a school to teach agriculture in New Jersey. And went to this agriculture school for two years, studying agriculture and horticulture. He said he didn't do too well in the theoretical parts of it because he did have trouble in the reading and writing, but when it came to the practical year - working with trees, vegetables, and so forth - he was top of his class.
After taking this training, he was placed on a farm up near Rochester. And he worked on this farm, but he really found out that the farm life wasn't for him. He could remember that the farmer paid him very little and, and he really didn’t get much to eat. And he tells me how they used to go into the chicken coop and take a little pin prick and pick, prick a couple holes in the eggs, and-
Nettie: [chuckles]
Herbert: [chuckling] suck out the eggs, and put it back, in the egg, in the egg shell, back in the chicken's nest. Whatever. But that, that didn't work out too well; he really didn't enjoy being a farmer. And so he went to Syracuse at this time. And his older brother - my uncle - married a woman in Syracuse whose family was in the jewelry business. And they were in the jewelry business such that they did business house to house - face to face with people. Not just in Syracuse, but around the upstate New York area. So my father was given a route and he went out with a suitcase full of jewelry. And he went one day to Rome, to Ilion, to Herkimer - in that general neck of the woods. And he developed a route, just like the Jewel Tea man did. Went to people's homes, and met them, and spoke with them. Now, one of the advantages that he had was his ability with languages because he came to America speaking Russian and Ukrainian very easily. He was able to pick up other Slovak languages enough to get along - Polish and Slovak. Uh, he spoke German because he had a background in German, and it wasn't too long before he was able to pick up Italian. And he was able to get along and, and…and if he didn't know what a word was, he would just show a thing to a person - an earring, necklace, whatever - he had to learn these words, you know. And the people told him what it was, you know. Koletso [sic]. He knew what it was, but in, in Italian they told him what a ring was, what an earring was. So he was able to sell the thing. In those days credit was very important because, uh, these were just working people, really. And, uh…so, they would buy something and pay for it a little bit each week - you would come back to see them [cough], you were invited in the home - if a christening, a wedding or birthday or gift was coming up or something, they would say to him, ""Ruby, why don't you bring something next week because I have a special gift coming up?"" My father's name was Rubin Levine - uh, Ruven (R-U-V-E-N), I guess is how it, how it was in Russian. And we have his birth certificate, and it’s interesting to see the name Levine spelled in Russian - because Levine in Russian is spelled with five letters (L-A-V-E-N). “E” is a hard sound; an “e”, a Russian “e,” is a hard sound, “e.” There was a meakhnozak [sic] at the end, you know?
Nettie: Yes.
Herbert: But anyway, there was a hard “e” sound. And so today, when you see people's names - “Levine,” sometimes it appears as “Levin” (L-E-V-I-N) because they just took one letter from each letter in the Russian alphabet and called it “Levine.” And it came out in English, “Levin.” To make it sound like “Levine,” in our case, they put a [sic] “e” on the end. So it would, instead of…it really sounds like “Leh-vine...”
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: If you pronounce it exactly. Some people spell it L-E-V-E-N-E, with an “e” on the end.
Nettie: Oh, nice.
Herbert: Maybe keeping it “Levine.” But I, I've asked him if it ever was Levinsky or anything like it, but it wasn't Levinsky. It was really Levine, which is an old, old Hebrew word; it comes from the Levites. The Levites, if you read the first testament, they were priests and Levites who took care of the Temple in the early days. And that's where the names Levi; Livi; Levin; Levine comes from - sort of a historic thing.
But, [clears throat] where were we? He, he was working in Syracu-out of Syracuse, traveling to Ilion, Rome, so forth, when World War I came along. And, uh, having never served in the Army - boom! - first thing you know - away he went. Uh, let's just see what it was [clears throat] - in 1917, I think, 1917 or 1918 is when he went. So he went into the army at 27 - 28 years of age - no youngster. And, uh, went through training, was assigned to a machine gun battalion, was sent to France. In France, uh, he learned French because he had this ability to pick up languages. Uh, spent some time in France. He was wounded; received the Purple Heart. Spent some time in the hospital in France. And, uh, came back finally. And, ‘bout a year and half later, in 1919. Uh, from the army, a veteran. Decided, well, maybe he would go back to Syracuse where he left off and go into business - in the jewelry business. Uh, lo and behold, he found that, number one: He was replaced. [chuckles] There was a man who was traveling the same route that he was and he told everybody he was Ruby's brother. “Ruby’s in the army - I'll ta-I’ll take care, I’m his brother.” So he stole all of his customers; this guy took all his customers. Secondly, his actual brother, who was the son-in-law in this business, wasn't that happy with him coming back to settle permanently in Syracuse.
So my father heard of the Triple Cities - he heard of this place, you know, eight-80 miles away from Syracuse that was filled with shoe workers, and new immigrants, and workers, and there was, uh, a busy, thriving, growing community. So in the spring of 1919, 1919…he came to Binghamton. And he, uh, had a house - had a room, lived in a rooming house. I guess on Carroll St./Susquehanna St., someplace. And he opened up an office in the Press Building. At that time, there were many jewelers operating out of the Press Building - some with little shops, there manufacturing jewelers, watch makers - and he decided he would start from scratch. And, and as he did before out of the Syracuse area, he went house to house, people's homes- introduced himself; came in; sat down; told them he was a jeweler; he would be happy to sell them things; had nice things - and through his personality and his ability to get along, speaking all of these seven or eight languages…it was easy for him to make contact with, with, uh, immigrants. And, and by treating people fairly and honestly, little by little, his reputation grew as an honest man. And, uh, and his business became established. He met my mother in the early 20's…and, uh, [clears throat] let's see…1922, [cough] moved to Endicott. He decided Endicott didn't have anywhere as many jewelers as Binghamton did and perhaps, it would be better to be in a smaller community and be more important than being in Binghamton with a lot of jewelers. So, he came to Binghamton - opened a business and still continued to go visiting his customers door to door. However, i-it was difficult- tough on his stomach because in those days everybody made their own wine. And [coughs] when you were invited into someone's house, you had to accept their hospitality, and accepting their hospitality meant drinking whatever they had to offer was. After doing that eight - 10 - 15 times, you came home upset to your stomach and pretty sick. And my mother said, ""Hey, you better cut this out. If you’re gonna be in business, these people better come see you. If they're not interested enough in comin’ to see you, then [chuckles] that's just too bad.""
Nettie: [chuckles]
Herbert: So, so he stopped going out house to house. Maybe did on Sundays, but he, uh, but he did…uh, organize his own business and had a business where people came to him. One of his first drivers was a, a young man who liked to drive a car. His name was Sammy Moriello. Now, I don't know if you remember the name. But, he was a very notable youngster in Endicott's history. He was a, a [sic] Air Force ace. He was a pilot and, and an ace - I don’t know how many planes you had to shoot down. I think he was later killed flying.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: But, he was, ah, he used to drive my father from house to house and door to door so that he was able to, uh, have more freedom to take care of his business and his customers. During this period of time, you know, in the early 20s - Endicott was sort of rough and tumble. There were all kinds of things going on, and it probably wasn’t the most, uh, civil, organized, uh, community way of life. If there was a police chief with one or two policemen, that was probably a lot. And there was a lot of robbery and, and such things going on. [coughs] He told a story, one day, of going to someone's home, he knocked on the door, and the man lets him in - some place on the north side of Endicott - and the man…my father has a little suitcase full of jewelry. The man pulls out a gun and points it to my father, and he says, ""You know, Ruby?” He says, “I could let you have it right now.” He said, “But, I'm not going to because they told me that you’re a [sic] okay guy and to leave you alone."" And so, that's just what they did. They, uh, they did leave him alone and never bothered him.
Throughout the many years that I worked with my dad in 1953 - 1965, uh, I used to ask him about those times and what went on. And of course, he could understand everything everybody spoke: He could understand Italian; Russian; Polish; Slovak. Many people were speaking Italian…but he never repeated stories. I used to ask him about Barbara and what-
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: -went on in those days, but he never used to talk about it. He said, ""Some things you listen and ya, and you don't repeat.” And he said, “That’s how you [laughs] get along in this world.""
Nettie: [laughs]
Herbert: And, and so, that's, that’s what he did. Um, just briefly on my mother's background - she was born in Syracuse. Her family came to America. Perhaps, uh, 20 years before my father's family did, coming from Austria-Hungary. And this family, also, again, 10 children. Her mother and father came and settled in Syracuse, New York…and, uh, were brought up there. These children had much more of an education. My mother went to high school; graduated from high school; worked as a secretary in the Syracuse area before coming to Binghamton. So, uh, culturally, uh, they were on a different plateau. Uh, they spoke Yiddish in their home. Especially when my grandfather died at an early age. But, the grandmother spoke to her Jewish and Yiddish quite often. Um, so my mother certainly had no ability to speak foreign languages other than, uh, a little bit of Jewish and, uh, and English. In our home growing up, the youngsters once in a while, the only time they ever resorted to a foreign language is when they didn't the children to understand.
Nettie: [chuckles]
Herbert: As happens in, in so many families. From the beginning, I think my father's whole concept of business was to present a feeling of interest in his customers. That he was concerned about them - that he gonna treat them right and be honest. And, and, uh…to his very last year, as I can recall in Endicott talking to people as we stood there, standing beside him - and, and he told customers in whatever language that he was speaking that he wasn't going to leave his children a million dollars, but he was going to leave them an honest name. And, and this was really his, uh, his whole concept. And I think, you know, a very valid one for, uh, for running a business today. Uh, my dad was very much involved in the community. Uh, during the war years, I recall…well, let's go back. He, he became a Mason and was involved in Masonry, which was a, a very big thing. Interestingly enough, although Masonry was a very strong Protestant movement, Masonry did allow Jewish people to belong to it.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: Catholic people didn't, but Jewish people did. And, uh, and so, at Round Hill Lodge in Endicott, my father became very much involved - was in Consistory, a member of the shrine, and took much pride in, in participating.
I can recall that, ah, my father always was interested in going to adult education courses in UE High School, way, way back. Uh, courses were given on current events, and world politics, and national politics. And, and, uh, rarely did he miss attending one of those types of courses. Like many people who, uh, came up from nothing, my father knew very little about hobbies. He didn't play cards, play golf, gamble - he, he really just, uh, worked. Had a little garden - took care of his garden. And, uh, between the energies that he consumed - bringing up his family; being a father; and working; and taking care of his house...that, that took care of everything. Uh, in those days, of course, a six day week existed in a retail business. There was no such thing as a vacation. We never went on a vacation for a week or two because to go on a vacation would’ve meant to close the business and that, that just was never done. So I have to admire greatly those people who came before us, such as my father and,and his many friends and customers. Because, you know, these people were of two worlds and of two cultures. They lived in, in America, in Endicott. And they were able to keep up with the problems of the community, and the state, and the nation, and so forth. But at the same time, they never lost touch with what happened in the Old World. And they were able to talk with someone about Europe, and what went on there and what is going on there - at the same time as keeping track of what was going on in America. They lived in two worlds.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: And sometimes, we, who have an opportunity to go to college, uh, think that we have it all, but we really don't. We probably have, ah, just a finger, thumbnail full of background of knowledge compared to what these people did who were have enough, you know, to pick up their whole family. 10 children, a husband and wife - go to a place where they couldn't even speak the language and didn't know what was ahead of them. It was, uh, an amazing - it was an amazing chore, but everybody did it in those days. I guess, I guess it, you just took a chance. Today, people are worried about moving to Charlotte, North Carolina; and they’re debating and going - and you know, it's a, it’s a big challenge. Here, people left to go to a new country. And didn't know what was ahead of ‘em - didn't know, didn’t know what was coming Uh…now, how did I happen to end where I am?
Uh, I went to college in Syracuse University in 1945. And, uh, my parents thought that certainly, anyone who is able ought to go to college and be educated and be something. My father said, ""Well, why don't you become an optometrist? Ya know?”
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: “And I'll put a little place for ya in the back of the store. I'll tell all my friends-”
Nettie: [laughs]
Herbert: “-you know, my son’s here, you’ll take care of him."" In those days, Rudolph's had an optometrist - uh, you used to get your glasses in a jewelry store. That was the thing to do. Hilkins, which was one of the oldest - the oldest jewelry store in Endicott - was originally an optical place and a jeweler. That's what Mr. Hilkins needs, an optician; and that's how they got into business. So in those days, at least on that particular point, I didn't argue. So I went to Syracuse University and took the necessary courses to go to study optometry at Columbia University. In those days, you went to college for two years and then studied optometry for two years. And so, I underwent some courses in math; in calculus; in physics; in chemistry; in scientific German; whatever I needed to do. And, uh, applied to get into Columbia. Just at the time I applied, all the veterans were returning from the war, and I was a youngster who just went to college at just being, just a little over16 years old…so that I was only 18 years when all the veterans of 24 - 5 - 6 - 8 were coming out of the service. They were given preference and I didn't get in. I really wasn't too sad because I, I really [laughs]…it wasn't my idea in the first place - it was father's.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: So I continued my education, and majored in sociology which I found very interesting, and studied about world population problems and, and ethnic backgrounds and all the things that we’re interested in today. Juvenile delinquency, criminology, and so forth. It, it was an interesting way to, to see life. I was very much involved in the campus activities, and the dean knew my name, and the chancellor knew my name. And, however, very - hardly a teacher knew who I was. I wasn't the most excellent student. But, upon graduation, I thought certainly the world had - is looking for a guy like me with all these talents, and abilities, and so forth. And, and I went out to look for a job. During this period of time, I’d met the girl who later became my wife, and, uh, she was interested in seeing me get established and get going. And so, the pressure was on. So upon graduation from college, I had to do something. And lo and behold, there weren't too many jobs available in 1949.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: But, uh, because I helped my father after school, and a, maybe couple summer vacations, in the jewelry business, I ended up getting a job with Kay Jewelers. Which at the time had its headquarters in Washington, D. C. In 1949, Kay Jewelers was the largest jewelry chain in the country. And they had a training program for young people, such as myself. So, so I went to Rochester, N. Y. where I went to work as a trainee for $45.00 a week. And I worked six days a week; the store was open two nights and we trimmed a window one night. So I worked three nights a week and our manager liked to work every Sunday morning. So I worked every Sunday morning as well. So that was an interesting introduction to how-
[Both laugh]
Herbert: -how to have to work for a living. I didn't have a car, and I used to ride back and forth on a bus and lived in a room in a rooming house. And many times didn't talk to anybody from the day I left the s-time I left the store ‘till the next morning. Because I'd go to a restaurant and have something to eat, went home, and went to a movie, and that’s about it. But a year later, I was married. My wife and I settled in, in Rochester and she worked across the street in the Girl Scout office, and I in the, in the Kay Jewelers. And there I was until I was rescued from this terrible fate because I really didn't enjoy the level of the business. It was a credit business doing business with, um, uh, the black population. At that time, I felt they were really being taken advantage of - 50¢ down, 50¢ a week, selling things to people who couldn't afford it. It was, uh, it was not a nice thing to get off. But I was rescued by all this by Uncle Sam who said, ""You'd better come with me,"" because Korea had just started and I was about to get drafted. So I entered the U.S. Coast Guard where I went to Officer Candidate School - later became an officer and skipper of a Coast Guard cutter in Norfolk, Virginia. I stayed in Norfolk, Virginia for two years. Didn't know quite what to do - maybe I’d go to law school, maybe I’d do something; go back to get a graduate degree in business. When my father wrote me a note one day-
Nettie: [clears throat]
Herbert: -that he was going to buy a jewelry store - Abraham’s Jewelry and, and Luggage Store - on Chenango St. And said, “You’ll come home - we'll have a second store, you’ll be en [sic], it’ll be terrific.” So we made plans to come to Endicott, and to move there, and to settle. And now we have a youngster: Our oldest son, uh, Rick. And we were all set to come when my dad called to say, “The deal fell through, but come here, anyway.” So come home, anyway, we did. And we lived in Endicott in a, on a house on McKinley Avenue. I went to work joining my father’s business in 1953. I stayed with him, working with him side by side from 1953 until he died in 1965. Our, after our parents died in ‘55 and ‘56, my brother and I remained owners of Ruby & Sons. And in 1969, uh, Kenneth Van Cott had decided to retire. At first, my brother Carl and I were both going to, uh, buy this store and run them together. But, as we worked out the details, it appeared that we would be much better off if, uh, each of us had our own business. So I bought Van Cott's, selling my interest to the Endicott store to Carl. So as of the past nine years, Carl owns Ruby & Sons and I own Van Cott' s, and we're best friends, and it works out, works out very, very good.
Um, after getting involved in the jewelry business, one of the first things I did was to start taking courses in gemology and diamond study because it appeared to me from the very start that, that Mr. Van Cott had the right approach on the, on the jewelry business. He was a professional and he was an expert; he was a registered jeweler in the American Gem Society. And it appeared that that's the kind of person you should be: If you’re going to be a jeweler, be first class in all the way. So we sort of copied everything he did in, in organizing our store and changing it from a credit store to what we call a fine jewelry store. And so we copied everything in Endicott to make our store as close as it could be to Van Cott’s. So now our two stores are similar in character. Uh, Van Cott's still has a tradition that goes way back to the early 1900s as the-
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: -quality store in Binghamton. And we still have customers coming in, uh, as a result of that. But we, I did become a registered jeweler in the American Gem Society, and for a number of years it was just Mr. Van Cott and myself who held this title. Today in our store we have two other young men plus myself who hold the title of, uh, of registered jeweler.
Nettie: [coughs]
Herbert: At the present time, I am on a board of directors at the American Gem Society- one of 12 jewelers in the whole country who was elected to this post. I am also serving this year as president of the New York State Retail Jewelers’ Association, uh, for the second year in a row. So I think being involved in, in organizations and in the jewelry business is very much important. Incidentally, uh, there's a third generation of Levine’s involved in the, the jewelry. Our son, Bill, who graduated from Syracuse University two years ago, is now in California at the Gemological Institute of America where he teaches courses in diamond study and diamond grading. People from all over the world come to take these courses. And he's been there now going on two years and enjoys very much what he’s doing. He's become quite a speaker and traveled to Kansas, and to Missouri - addressing retail jewelers’ groups on how important it is to be a professional jeweler and, and have the knowledge and ability that is required to grade diamonds and gem stones. The jewelry business today keeps going on, and will go on forever because from day one - from the very first time when a primitive cave man looked down and saw a shiny pebble that shined just a little bit more than the rest, he put it in his little pouch and saved it because it looked special. And if he liked someone extra special, maybe he even gave that little, beautiful, polished stone to him or to her to show his feelings. And jewelry throughout the years has done the, just that: It has conveyed people's feelings and emotions. I'm not sure that people even felt stronger about how much they would put into a piece jewelry years ago than today. My father had told me how to give, to be a godparent of a child was a very big thing a couple generations ago - 50 years ago. When you were named as the godparent of a child, it was an honor that, that you know - above everything. You bought all of the children's clothes, and you did everything and, and…if he was a boy, you bought him a pocket watch. And my father would tell me how people would buy a beautiful pocket watch - which today are back in style - and people would spend $50.00. $50.00 on a solid gold pocket watch. And these people didn't make good…$20.00 a week. Can you imagine that? They spent 2 and a half weeks’ money on a christening gift. That’s today like giving somebody - I don't know - a $500.00 christening gift. You wouldn’t think of it. So…I'm not so sure that even though we give jewelry today, I don't think we stretch our, the limits of our involvement as much as we did way back when, when we realized that we wanted to give something extra special. And it would be nothing - I can recall in the early 50s when we did a lot of business with Endicott Johnson workers - for an Endicott Johnson worker to buy a Christmas gift for $50…for wife or husband to give a gift to each other…and in those days, usually both people worked in the factory. And they came in on a Friday afternoon with their paycheck; Friday afternoon, they came in and paid on their account with their paycheck, and they cashed their checks. Rarely was the check over $50.00. And they paid $1.00 on their account. They paid $1.00. It would take a whole year to pay for their Christmas gift. And they never missed a week because the Endicott Johnson people had this reputation for being most credit-worthy and being very, very responsible. For, uh, even though they didn’t make big incomes, when they accepted an obligation, they accepted it, uh, very wholeheartedly. And they very rarely backed down on it. One time, though, he, my father told me of an incident where a man didn't - wasn't quite so honest. And he bought one of these big, beautiful pocket watches I'm talking about which was $100.00 with chain and gold chain, a pocket watch. And…he sold it. My father sold it on credit, as he often did - this is without a credit bureau - nobody called the credit bureau, [laughs] nobody called anything. you looked at a guy - he looked honest, he worked at E.J., so you trusted him. What the heck! But o and behold, the next week, a man came in to my father and said, ""Ruby, did you sell a pocket watch to such-and-such a fellow's name?""
And he said, ""Sure.""
He says, ""Well, you know, he's going back to the Old Country for good. He's leaving town and he's not corning back, and he's taking your watch with him.""
Well, $100.00 is a lot of money, especially in those days. So my father got on the very early morning Erie train at 4 o’clock in the morning, rode all the way to New York City where the man had told him the name of the ship that this man was going to sail on. So he got there to the ship where the people were loading up - and lo and behold! There's the man. My father said, ""What's the big idea? Where's my watch?"" It was right there in his pocket. He said, ""What kind of guy are you to take - steal that watch from me- take it all the way to Europe?"" So he got his watch back. Another interesting story he told is: In 1934, one day, he got a call in the middle of the night from the police department that his store was broken into on Washington Ave. So that, uh, they went down and that’s just what happened; the front door was broken, people gained entrance to the store, and many of the rings, watches, and so forth were in trade, were all taken, strewn around. Almost everything was missing. Well, you didn't have insurance - at least, he didn't have insurance to cover himself that day, and he was really sick. However, the next day, he had a visit from a man, friend, a customer. And he said, ""Ruby.” He said, ""I know who robbed your store."" He said, ""And I'll tell you who it is."" He said, ""I was having a drink in a restaurant last night, and I heard these two fellas talking about doing a job.”
“They were gonna do a job? Well, what were they gonna do?”
And he [the customer] said, “I don’t know nothin’. They never mentioned the name of the place. But he said, “I’m sure that’s the people."" So he told him who it was. And they were arrested, and they were able to recover, uh, some of the things.
[phone interruption] Hello? Hello? [hangs up phone]
So that was just another instance where my father's, uh, friendly relationships with people, you know, was, was such that, uh…
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: It, it really helped him. And, and, and I think that's probably the most important factor, uh, in the life of those people who, like himself, came and settled in a new country in the early 1900s. They came without a formal background, a formal education, but they, they had a sense of pride and responsibility. Um, when the American Legion had a parade, when Fourth of July came, or Veteran's Day, Memorial Day - it was a big thing. It was a big thing in Endicott and everybody was there. And even though these people, uh, didn't have roots that went back to the, to the Declaration of Independence in 1776, or the Civil War, or anything else…
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: I think these new immigrants felt more strongly about the pride in their country.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: And respect to the flag than, than many of our children feel today. They take it for granted; we all, we all take it for granted. Um, growing up in Endicott was an interesting experience, and quite often I'm approached by people who are studying economics, and they hear about the terrible monopoly that existed in Endicott when the Johnson family took advantage of all the people, and re-surfed them, and became now - wealthy and millionaires. And I disagree with them heartly [sic] because growing up in Endicott as I did, I don't remember depressions or breadlines…I can remember a couple times people came to our house for something to eat, and my mother would say, ""Well, why don't you rake up the leaves and do something?"" So they didn’t feel like they were beggars. And, and they would do a little bit of work. And for that, in return she would give them something to eat. But, um…yeah, I think it was just a warm, friendly relationship. People used to sit on the front porches. This is a thing gone - of sitting on a front porch and saying ""hello"" to your neighbors, and talking to people as they wen up and down the street. Across the street from Endicott…ah, ah, in Endicott on McKinley Ave. was a little bend in McKinley Ave. where an alley is. An, an area was set up there where men used to pitch quoits every night. I don't know if you remember a family - Sutton. Sutton owned a drug store and there was a man named Kent who was an IBM’er…and a man named Bradley. Worked in the tannery; his son, Bob Bradley is head of Maine-Endwell. I think, uh, [of its] physical education department. His son, Tom, has a bar - redheaded - has a bar-
Nettie: Yeah.
Herbert: -on Arthur Ave., someplace. Anyway, they used to pitch quoits every night. And they went to Nanticoke Creek - we used to call that Nanticoke Crick.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: And I still do. And they got clay and they, they made these, uh, pits. And as youngsters, we used to sit there, they used to play, and we would keep score. Well, this was, this was sort of a community get-together. Everybody went there and, and it was just an informal get-together. But, everyone knew everyone. And I can recall as a youngster that you could go from one block - from Monroe St. to Broad St., behind all the houses on McKinley Ave. There wasn't a fence; there wasn't a fence. And little by little, the fences started coming - and the shrubs and the hedges. Whereas today, you know, we live in the backyard society. Now, if you want to have sun you, you sit in the backyard. And when you’re there, you don't see anybody and nobody sees you. That’s the way we live today. But, growing up in Endicott as we did, you sat on the front porch and watched everyone go by - it was a wonderful institution. But, getting back to the Johnsons…when we went to a band concert on Sun, on Sunday night, as everybody did, and Mr. George F. used to come, sit in the front row and pass out nickels, or shake hands, or whatever he did…um, he didn't have a body guard that I know of. I don't think anybody was worried he would be shot, or hurt, or anything. Because he really, uh…the people had a love and respect for him. Everybody knew that his door was open; if you had a problem, you went to see Mr. George F. And if you wanted to have a church, a handful of families got together and said, ""Look: We'd like to pray in our own, certain way.”
And he said, ""How much money do you need?""
And you had a church. And when the people in the American Legion wanted to have an American Legion, he said, “Here’s, here’s the money. You know? Build one.”
And they had one in Endicott, one in West Endicott, one in Johnson City - wherever they wanted. He saw to it that, uh, the people's basic needs were provided for. It’s amazing how he understood people's basic needs. He knew they wanted their own home, a place to raise a garden, a place for recreation - built these beautiful parks and golf courses. I mean, who would ever think that the best golfers in Endicott 40 years ago used to be fellas who worked in the tannery? And they got out at 1 o'clock because they did all their work, and they used to go, and they used to go to play golf. The best golfers in Endicott used to work in the tannery. I mean, it’s unheard of. Today we think of people at a fancy Country Club who are going to be golfers - you know, the millionaires? In those days, it was the big strong fellows that could pull those hides out of the tanks and had all afternoon to learn to play golf. So that it, uh…it was a wonderful heritage growing up in Endicott. Uh, I think it was a melting pot - people of all, uh, backgrounds, uh, felt that they had something in common.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: And, uh, they shared and helped one another. I don't think there was tremendous bigotry. Uh, growing up as a person of the Jewish religion in Endicott, it was certainly a tremendous minority. One thing I can remember most vividly is that, in eighth grade, we used to take a course called, “civics.” We used to have to take, “civics” and “citizenship.” It, it was always frightening because those were the first two regents things you took before ninth grade. And everybody had to take civics and citizenship. And I could remember in one of the courses - civics or citizenship - the teacher was trying to have us understand that, the concept of a melting pot. How America consisted of all these people from all different backgrounds who sort of came together.
And she said, ""You know? It would be a fun experiment if we could see right here in our class what countries are the backgrounds people came from.” So she said, “Let's try this: I'm going to mention these countries, and if you have a parent who came from one of these countries, why don’t you stand up and we’ll see what it is.""
So she mentioned England - a few people stood up. You know, Scotland; Ireland; Germany; Italy; Czechoslovakia. And they finally got to Russia. And she said, you know, ""Anybody's parents who’re from Russia, stand up.""
And I stood up. Along with four, five, or six kids. And these kids looked at me and said, ""Why are you standing up? You're not Russian! You’re Jewish.""
Nettie: [laughter]
Herbert: So it was hard for them to understand that in Russia, some people were Jewish, too.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: They weren’t just, uh, Russian Orthodox or whatever church the Russian people belong to. But, uh, our children probably missed this. And they'll never quite understand what, uh, what it meant to grow up in a community where…I guess everybody started from base zero. And where they got, was closer to, to being close together. And now, after a couple generations, uh, perhaps in a sosh, socio-economic level, uh…some people's children are going off to private schools, and colleges, and living in fancy homes. And, and no longer come in contact with a general mixture of people of all different backgrounds. Of course, the people of the second generation greatly resisted their cultural background. I can recall how customers would come into the store with their parents. And my father would conduct the conversation with their parent - in Italian, Polish, Slavish or whatever it was - and the kids would listen. And my father would talk to them in their native tongue and the kids would answer back in English.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: He said, “Don't you do that.” He said, “You’re going to be sorry if you don't take advantage of learning this language when you have the chance.”
But, so many people - second generation - just wanted to be Americanized. And they didn't want to be identified with anything old; they just wanted to be identified with the new. In fact, some of the children, I'm sure, were embarrassed a little bit that their parents spoke with an accent and didn't speak perfect English. And, um, it certainly is nothing to be ashamed of. Because as I mentioned in the beginning, these people are heads and shoulders over us. They understand two worlds and we don't do too much of a job, uh, understanding one. As to my, uh, background and club affiliations? Uh, early in my life, probably one of the most important things in my life I ever did was to get involved with the scouting movement - in boy scouting. Much of my time as a teenager was spent concerning myself as a Boy Scout Troop, Sea Scout Troop. Which incidentally met at the First Methodist Church. And I can recall every Scout Sunday, during Scout Week - on Scout Sunday, I marched into the First Methodist Church with all the other scouts and sat and listened to this church service. Which, you know, was very, uh foreign to me. I listened to it; I wasn't 100% comfortable.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: But, I thought it wouldn't hurt if I did that. And then that was…that’s certainly what we did. On returning to Endicott in 1953, I became involved in Endicott Kiwanis Club - which certainly was a, a rewarding experience. Uh, throughout the years, l’ve been involved in many community activities. Uh, at this time, I happen to be serving as a trustee on the Binghamton Savings Bank, as a trustee on the Board of Binghamton General Hospital, I'm on the Board of WSKG TV and Radio as a trustee. I happen to be involved as President of the Jewish Cemetery Association, as a necessary job someone has to do. I’ve served in the past year as a Vice-President of the Boy Scouts’ Council. Uh, Vice-President of the Temple of Israel. Uh…I, I try to get involved in as many things as I can. Years ago, I was, uh, President of the Endicott, Vestal-Endwell Chamber of Commerce when we had such an organization. I was Chairman of the Merchants’ Organization when I was in Endicott on Washington Ave. Few years ago, I was Chairman of the Merchants’ Association here on Court Street. But, when we opened our new store at the Oakdale Mall, seemed it wasn't right for me to be Chairman of the Court Street Businessmen…well, because I had two stores, perhaps competing with the Binghamton merchants. How much more time do we have on this tape? Do you know?
Nettie: [unintelligible]
Herbert: Let's just speak for a few minutes about the, uh, the settlement of the few Jewish families who did settle in Endicott. Um, in the early 1920s, there were probably a handful, maybe 10 - 15 Jewish families who settled in the Endicott area. Most of these were small merchants that had small shops. Some even started out on Washington Ave. with a little store front and, uh, lived in the back of the store. Uh, over the store. I think that, uh, Shapiro's did - Shapiro's Men's Shop. And Lachman's - Buddy Lachman's parents had a haberdashery store. I think this is how they started. Uh, with a store and a little house - a little apartment behind a store or above a store. So this little handful of people became very much involved…they were never large enough to have their own Jewish congregation. Although, the women saw to it that they got together on a regular basis - that the children were given Jewish education. Uh, we used to drive to Binghamton in a car pool, to a Sunday school every Sunday. And during the week, we went to religious instruction after school. The Endicott school system used to provide a classroom for the Jewish people to have Jewish instruction. And I can remember I had to go off after school. The other kids wanted to play ball or something. And Nick Paks, and Paul Kominos, and some of the Greek kids were going to Greek lessons and we were going Hebrew school. And, and we both had to do the same things after school. So the, um…the Jewish people did cling together because they had a common, common heritage. Common background. Uh, without a, a permanent place of religion to worship in. Uh, arrangements were made to rent space in the Odd Fellows Hall. And the Odd Fellows Hall - which was on Riverview Drive right next door to the American Legion - had big rooms above it. And so, during the High Holy days on Yom Kippur; Rosh Hashanah; the Jewish New Years, we would hold, uh, our religious services in this building. On those, these three days. Oftentimes on Sunday afternoons, uh, a get-together would be held. And using the social facilities on the main floor of this Odd Fellows Hall, we would have a joint, uh, dinner, or program, or such. And again, the children knew each other; everyone was sort of together. And, uh, it was quite a, it was quite an involved, close, closely knit community. The day finally did arrive - I believe in the late 1940s when Temple Beth-El was built - my father and a number of other people were most instrumental in seeing that a building was built. A permanent house of worship. And, uh, this building was built, uh, Jefferson Ave., in Endicott. Interestingly enough, uh, the St. Paul's Episcopal Church was going to do some remodeling and the church had to be shut down. So that the two congregations got together and shared the use of Temple Beth-El on Sundays. The Episcopal people came to use the facilities, and on Friday and Saturday, the Jewish services were held. Uh, uh…for me to get totally into a discussion involving the basis of the Jewish religion probably would take three/four hours, and I don't know if I'm the most capable person to do that. But, I think it is interesting to note that, uh, many of these people who started out in this community have, have grown and, and settled in Broome County and found their way in prominence…uh, Herb Kline, son of Jim Kline Men's Store, is now a very prominent Binghamton attorney. Bud Lachman, also an attorney. Uh, happens to practice in Endicott; lives in Binghamton. Bruce Becker, whose father was an attorney - following in his father's footsteps. He’s, uh, an attorney today, as well. Irvin Shapiro, who runs a very fine men's store - following in his father's footsteps. My two brothers are in Endicott running a jewelry business - it goes back to 1990. So that you can see that, ah, a number of these people came to the community, stayed and settled. Sandy Salerson, whose father was a, a well known figure on Washington Ave. now works at, uh, - had his own business for a while with his father-in-law, now works in Montgomery Ward in the appliance department. So that, many of these people are still here. Uh, Murray Shapiro - whose father was manager of Rudolph’s for many, many years - still lives in this community. He’s, uh, holds a position at IBM. And you can see that from this tiny, little community evolved a very strong background of, of people who were involved in the community, and they stayed here, and contributed to it. And were lucky enough to share in those early years when, when they got to know the community of Endicott, and, and they grew up with all, with kids from all over. You know, in those days, the north side was a sort of a no-no place. Today, the north side of Endicott has the most beautiful homes, the most beautiful golf course; it’s, uh, the most elegant, lovely place. Upper Taft Ave., is, is just beautiful.
Nettie: Mm-hm. And downtown, which used to be so terrific is, is [chuckles] where-
Nettie: [lightly chuckles]
Herbert: -all the decay is. So it took 50 years for the tables to turn, but, uh, but it certainly did. And it’s interesting to look back on. Okay?
Nettie: Yeah, that’s-
Herbert: That would give us something to do.
Nettie: Mm-hm.
Herbert: How ya doin’?
Nettie: Well, Herb, this was very interesting interview, I wanna thank you very much.
Herbert: Good. It’ll be interesting to see what it all looks like when we’re done.
Nettie: Mm-hm. Okay.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Joe Polansky
Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil
Date of interview: 22 February 1978
Dan: This is Dan O’Neil, and I’m speaking to Joe Sheppe Polansky. 54 Glenwood Avenue, Binghamton, New York. The date is February 22, 1978. Okay, ah, Joe, would you, ah, relate to me your life and working experiences in the community with emphasis on your affiliation with the boxing profession?
Joe: Well, the boxing profession?
Dan: Yeah, you can start out with that. [Referring to outline that he had been given earlier]
Joe: Well, first I want to say that I was born June 18, 1902 in Coaldale, Pennsylvania in Schuylkill County in the coal mining fields and, ah…at the age of 16 my Father died and being the first - the oldest - boy of the family, nine, I went to work in the mines. And, eh, my education consisted of first year High School and then I had to go into the mines. I worked in the mines for one year and during that time I was boxing as an amateur, and boxing as an amateur at that time was 1918, during the War, and we had amateur fights all throughout the coal regions and I participated in all of them. They had, ah, community sings which consisted of boys being draft- eh, asked to get into the service, and they had boxing bouts at all those meetings, and I participated in every one. And I was very successful in the amateur ranks, knocking out a number of boys, and, ah, at one time, I had two fights in one night. The first fight and the last fight. Because winning them both - knocking both boys out and, ah, my employment at that time? Well, I worked sporadically, learning the barber trade which I worked at time and time again because I was busily training for the fights, and I started my career in Tunakwa, Pennsylvania Hall. I scored four knockouts in a row then I, at that time, I met a lot of tough coal region boys. I was trained by the Chief of Police of my home town Coaldale, P.A. His name was James Foagallagher. He took great interest in me and at one of the fights I knocked out a soldier boy, and the soldier boy was very popular at that time so I wasn't so popular myself by knocking him out, however, that night Tiny Maxwell was the principle speaker at the banquet and Tiny Maxwell was a great sportswriter of the Philadelphia newspaper, and after I knocked both those boys out, the following week I was in the Philadelphia - Jack O’Brien’s gymnasium in Philadephia - training. I stayed there for 10 days, taking my training course from the great Philadelphia Jack O'Brien. And, ah, after I got through there, I boxed in Allentown, Pottsville, Lansford, Flagstaff, P.A., Nesquehoning, P.A., and a number of others - Reading and on to Philadelphia. Again, to box. Ah…that was what I called my employment at that time, was boxing and ah…(will ya shut that off now?). After I got through boxing in Philadelphia, I came to Binghamton for a 10 day vacation and, ah, I was working out at the YMCA and Smut Smith, who was Sports Editor of the Binghamton Sun, came over to the YMCA to watch me work out and he told, after watching me work out he says to me, he says, ""What do you weigh?"" I said, ""135 pounds."" He says, ""Would you like to fight next Friday?"" Here I'm in town only 5 days and Friday night was the big Binghamton Sun Community, ah, Contest that was run every year by the Sun Bulletin for, ah, some charitable affair and, ah, he says, ""You're on to fight next Friday night."" I said, ""OK."" So, Friday night came and there’s, the Kalurah Temple was packed to the hilt and that night I knocked out a young fellow - a very popular Binghamton boy by the name of Billy Kinney - and that night was one of the most notable nights in my career because I met George F. Johnson.
I met Mayor Tom Wilson and that time Senator Billy Hill - those were the three men I met that night I was in my, my first night in town. I, ah, and it was a great entry for me into the City of Binghamton. [inaudible] And, ah, at that time, I was living in Johnson Field right across from the ballpark and every morning I used to run around the ballpark to get my exercise and, ah…from then on, I kept boxing here in the City of Binghamton; Endicott; Johnson City; Syracuse; Rochester; Buffalo. And that was the start of my, my, ah, entry into Binghamton.
Talking about George F. Johnson, I met George F. Johnson a week later. And, ah, I says to Mr. Johnson that I would like to buy one of the E.J. homes. Mr. Johnson answered me, and he says, ""Joe, the only one man, people can buy an E.J. home, are people who work for Endicott Johnson."" And I said, ""Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Johnson,"" but I said, ""I'm thinking I know a man who wants to sell me their home and, ah, on Carlton Street, and I'd like to buy it."" Three days later, Mr. Johnson called me to his office and he says, ""Joe."" He says, ""You asked me about buying the E.J. home."" I says, ""Yes, I'd like to get my Mother up here and my family.""
""Well,” he says, ""you have a sister working for me, haven't you?""
I says, ""Yeah, she's been working for ya for the past 20 years."" He says, ""Well, have her sign on the Deed and you can buy the home."" And that’s how I bought the home at 40 Carlton Street, Johnson City - where we lived for many, many years.
[inaudible]
Dan: Ah, what year did you come to Binghamton, Joe?
Joe: May 16, 1921.
Dan: Okay…and, ah, the reason was to, to…what was the reason you came to Binghamton, was for vacation, and you came to visit your sister?
Joe: That’s right. [inaudible] Her name is Mrs. Anna Gavula.
Dan: Gavula? Okay.
Joe: She lived on Broad Street, right across from the ballpark.
Dan: Okay, so you bought the house on Carlton Street?
Joe: That’s right.
Dan: Okay, and then from where then, then what did you do? After you bought the house - I mean, did you continue boxing?
Joe: Yes. Oh, I continued boxing until, uh…until 1929.
Dan: Until 1929. And that’s when you retired from actually, from actually-
Joe: That's right. That’s right.
Dan: Uh-huh. And then, wha - and then what?
Joe: I retired from boxing, and then I became the boxing instructor of the YMCA.
Dan: I see. Uh-huh.
Joe: And after - during that time, though, I was a boxing commissioner - ah, no, a boxing commissioner, ah…the boxing commissioner at that time was, um…Tom Farley.
Dan: Tom Farley?
Joe: Jim Farley.
Dan: Oh, the Postmaster?
Joe: Brother of the Postmaster General.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And I was interested in getting on the boxing commission, however it didn't get on there for awhile. But from 1930 until 1933, I was a New York State referee of boxing and wrestling, and after 1933…in 1937…I was, ah, boxing instructor at the old Binghamton Police gymnasium. Then Senator Lehman appointed me as Boxing Commissioner, ah, Inspector of the State Athletic Commission.
Dan: That was in 1937?
Joe: That - 1937.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And I was on it, nine - from 1937 until 1972.
Dan: Mm-hm. As a boxing commissioner - er, boxing instructor, rather?
Joe: That’s right.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: That’s what I think is 35 years altogether.
Dan: Mm-hm. Now Joe, as a boxing referee, were the bouts that you refereed locally or were they all over?
Joe: All over New York State.
Dan: And, and what, eh-?
Joe: Buffalo, Utica, ah…Auburn, Elmira, Binghamton, and all the other cities that had boxing bouts at that time.
Dan: Mm-hm. And, uh, in your travels, did you, ah, meet any, ah, notables?
Joe: Well, the most notable was the, the boxing bouts that I had was some of
Carmen Basilio's Championship fights in Syracuse.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And, ah…what'd I say? Well, Jack Sharkey was my famous, my favorite, ah, ah, man that I met in New York City at all the fights ‘cause he came down from his, ah, place in Boston, and I met him at all the fights in New York. And, ah, we always went out together, and we've been wonderful friends ever since. And, ah…Sharkey, to me, was a great fighter. He should, uh, when he was boxing Jack Dempsey, he was beating Jack Dempsey until Jack Dempsey really fouled him, and the he looked away and the first thing you know, Jack Dempsey hit him on the chin and knocked him out.
Dan: In what year was that, Joe?
Joe: 1928 or -29, I'm, uh…
Dan: Uh-huh.
Joe:I’m not sure.
Dan: Yeah.
Joe: I can't tell.
Dan: Now, now Jack Sharkey's given name was, what?
Joe: Za k- Z-A-U-K-A-U-S-K-A-S.[sic]
Dan: Uh-huh.
Joe: Zukauskas.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Joe: Joe Zukauskas.
Dan: And they lived on the lower end of Clinton Street. Down, ah, where…where that shop is now. I can't think of the name of it.
Dan: And how did, did, Joe happen to, ah, or Jack happen to get into the boxing, ah, profession? How did Jack Sharkey happen-?
Joe: Jack Sharkey was in the Navy. And that’s where he learned to box. And, uh…after he got out of the Navy, he, he was one of the first boxers to box Harry Wills. Jack Dempsey was Champion at the time and the color line was drawn pretty close, and Jack Dempsey would not fight Harry Wills.
Dan: In what year was this, Joe?
Joe: In, uh, the early - the late 20s.
Dan: Late 20s.
Joe: And, ah, Jack Sharkey fought Harry Wills despite the color line and beat Harry Wills at the time, and that made him very popular because Jack Dempsey wouldn't fight Harry Wills, yet Sharkey did and beat him. It wasn't whether Dempsey was afraid of him or what, but Sharkey fought him and beat him. And that's what made him a very popular fighter at that time. And, ah…Jack Sharkey visited here immediately after he got out of the Navy in 1924, I believe, -25, and he was my guest at, uh, the Carlton Hotel at that time and, ah…we went out on dates together at the time. And, ah, he was boxing under the name of…well, I think it was “Jack Sharkey” at that time, too. And, ah, he fought in Syracuse. He fought in Syracuse, eh, I don't know, I think it was -26, -27 in 1927. And, ah…Sharkey was not the most popular guy in Binghamton at that time because of something that happened previous to when he went into the Navy, which I don't know anything about.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And, ah…
Dan: Now, was - wasn’t he known, eh, as the Boston Gob?
Joe: That’s right. that’s right.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: Yeah. Yes, he was.
Dan: And he retired in what year? Do you remember…Joe?
Joe: After the, in the…late 30s, I think.
Dan: In the late 30s?
Joe: Sometime after the - after 1930.
Dan: Uh-huh. And what do you recall of, uh - the Max Schmeling training here for his fight with Jack Sharkey?
Joe: Well, at that time he, uh, uh, as I just said, he wasn't the most popular, and that’s why George F. Johnson invited Max Schmeling to train in Endicott, and he trained at the old dance hall in Endicott. And, ah, I went down there quite often to watch him train because, ah, I knew his manager and some of his trainers through, ah, being on, ah…in boxing in New York. And, ah…I already knew him pretty well. I…I didn't get to meet, ah, Schmeling very often, but I met him a number of times down there and we talked. But the greatest athlete I think I ever met was a football player, and a baseball player, and a great Indian. And you know who he is?
Dan: Jim Thorpe.
Joe: Jim Thorpe. I met Jim Thorpe in Kalurah Temple. He came here with a wrestler by the name of Indian, Indian…Stock, I think his name was. and Bill Irving, who was one of the fi - allplayers here at that time…ah, was an old friend of Jim Thorpe. And we three of us sat in Kalurah Temple for two hours in the, the, ah…in the dressing room talking about old times, when Jim Thorpe played with the, with the baseball team in, in Ohio with Bill Irving. Ah…his early, ah, training in…at the…ah, University he attended at that time. And, ah, he was telling us about coming to Philadelphia for the ge - for the, eh, All-Star track events in Philadelphia, which was a yearly, was one of the, the biggest attractions throughout all, uh, colleges. And they waited, waited for the team to come in with Jim Thorpe from, uh, his university. It was an Indian School.
Dan: Yeah.
Joe: And, ah, I just can't think of the name-
Dan: Carlisle?
Joe: Carlisle College. And they waited for Carlisle College to come in on the train, and Erie, the Princeton team come in - they had 24, ah, runners. The Yale team come in, they had about 36 participants. And when the Carlisle team come off the, off the train, there was just 4 Indian runners and Jim Thorpe was one of ‘em. And he, that day, at the Philadelphia races, he won all the track events. And here they waited for ah ah the teams to come in and this team come in with only 4 men on it: Jim Thorpe and three other Indians - but Jim Thorpe was the main one that won most the race - all the races - all the track events that, that afternoon. So, it was a great day for me because I knew Tiny Maxwell - Tiny Maxwell was a sports editor of the Philadelphia Ledger, I believe it was at that time. And he was a personal friend of my manager's. My manager was a, a man who run a restaurant in Philadelphia and ah, and ah, him and Tiny Maxwell were very close friends, and that’s how I, I happen to…happen to know him.
Dan: Mm-hm. Now, who were some of the, ah, ah…fighters that you instructed here, locally?
Joe: Well, Joe Banovic was one of my, my boys that I worked with, Johnny Haystack, Joe Zinck and, ah, and I-
Dan: Ya have anything to do with Phil Shay - Phil Vanderbeck?
Joe: Vanderbeck, I was his trainer when he went to, to, ah…New York to fight in the Golden Gloves. Tommy Curry was one of the trainers and I was the other trainer. And, ah…we stayed in New York that, that night, and Vanderbeck boxed the next day. And, ah… some of the other participants were, were, ah…well, I got a picture of ‘em there but I just can't think of any of them, but Vanderbeck was the outstanding one at the, Joe - I think Joe Matisi boxed in that-
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: -tournament, too.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: Although, he didn't do too good at the time, but he showed up very well.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: But he didn't win any championship.
Dan: Mm-hm. Did ya - how ‘bout, di - Joe Taylor? Did you have anything to do with him?
Joe: Joe Taylor? No, I never - I refereed his bouts after I got through boxing, but I never had much to do with Joe Taylor outside of him being a, a member of our old-time boxers association - of which I was Secretary - and that was the only contact I had with Joe Taylor.
Dan: Mm-hm. Ah, outside of Jack Sharkey, Joe, uh, who would you say would be the best, ah, fighter to come out of this area?
Joe: Out of this area?
Dan: Yeah, outside of Jack Sharkey.
Joe: I would say Joe Banovic; Joe Matisi. Between those two…
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: I would say. I, ah, go ahe - the reason that I picked them was because, because they were heavyweights, more or less.
Dan: Yeah.
Joe: Or in that heavyweight class, which is one of the most popular classes. Tommy Curry, myself - we were of the lightweights - the lightweights were not too popular at the time…
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: Because a heavyweight is always…a heavyweight match is always…
Dan: Now, from the time up until you retired in 1929, most of the boxing matches locally were down at the Kalurah Temple, right?
Joe: No, Johnson Field.
Dan: Johnson Field?
Joe: Johnson Field is where most of mine were and, eh, and Kalurah Temple.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: But, ah, during the summer, there was always 5 or 6 fights during the, uh, summer at the Johnson Field.
Dan: Mm-hm. I recall one fight in particular, ah, involving a local boxer - I believe it was in Johnson Field. Did Jake LaMotta fight here at one time?
Joe: Yes he did, yes he did. But I really can't think of who he boxed.
Dan: I was under the impression that it was Joe Taylor.
Joe: No, Jake LaMotta never boxed in Binghamton - he boxed in Syracuse.
Dan: Oh, in Syracuse.
Joe: And he boxed Joey Taylor.
Dan: Oh, I see.
Joe: Joey Taylor put up a wonderful-
Dan: Yeah.
Joe: -fight against Jake LaMotta.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Joe: I was at the fight - I worked there as an Inspector at the time.
Dan: I see.
Joe: For the New York State Athletic Commission.
Dan: Uh-huh. So, uh, outside of Jack Sharley and, ah, who else did you, uh, who, who of the other heavyweights did you know?
Joe: Well, Jim Braddock was one of my great friends and everybody knows his history of how he became Champion. And, ah, Mickey Walker was, was another great, ah, friend of mine, and Mickey Walker came here the night I boxed Billy Kinney. And thats how I happened to go back to Newark, New Jersey with Mickey Walker. And I trained in Elizabeth, New Jersey, and, ah I boxed in Newark twice at the old Newark Airdrome, I believe they call it, or an Airdrome…and, ah, Mickey Walker's manager at that time was Jim Bulger (B-U-L-G-E-R), and he’s the man that took me to Newark and trained me there. But at that time, I broke my hand and I had to come back to Binghamton.
Dan: Mm.
Joe: A year later, I went, went out to Cleveland, Ohio, and I boxed in Cleveland, Akron and Mansfield. And at that time I was under the na - management of a, of a Cleveland man. And, eh…
Dan: The [inaudible].
Joe:That’s where I met…can’t think of, uh…another great fighter. A heavyweight out there in Cleveland and I can't just think of his name. And I stayed out in Cleveland for a year. For a whole year.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And I boxed in those different… and I, I boxed in a place called Highland Park. Highland Park was a, was a racehor - racetrack, and they had a big gymnasium there, and they held bouts there at that time.
Dan: Mm-hm. Now, you started to, to box when you were in the coal mines, um-
Joe: That’s right.
Dan: - in Pennsylvania. Now, when did you turn professional, Joe?
Joe: Oh, I had about…56 amateur fights…
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: Before I turned professional. And then, I believe I had about 55 professional fights after that. So-
Dan: You don't know what that year was that you turned professional.
Joe: Around -20. Around 1920.
Dan: Around 1920.
Joe: Because I, I boxed amateur. But I had more, more 56 amateur fights and only 55 professional fights, so-
Dan: Yeah-huh.
Joe: I had more experience as an amateur that I did as a professional.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Joe: But that’s what helped me out because I was a good puncher.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: Had a good right hand and I scored a lot of knockouts.
Dan : Mm-hm. And out of the 55 professional fights, how many did you win?
Joe: Well, I only lost two.
Dan: Only lost two.
Joe: Yeah. Only lost two.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: But, the others, uh, at that time there was a lot of no-decision fights. So. if you were on your feet at the end of 10 rounds, there was no decision. You either won or you…either knocked your man out or you beat him very bad, at, or you win…but, uh, most, uh, in those days, there were no Boxing Commissions.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: in the early 20s. Ah, no boxing, ah, commissions to, uh, say that you had to make a decision, so there was no-decisions on many occasions.
Dan: Mm-hm. Now, have you pursued the, ah, your barbering trade at all, Joe?
Joe: Pardon?
Dan: Have you pursued your barbering trade at all?
Joe: Not much after, after, I just…sporadically.
Dan: Just sporadically.
Joe: Yeah.
Dan: Most of your life has been spent, been spent in the boxing profession?
Joe: With the Boxing Commission.
Dan: Right. Mm-hm. Now, you, when you bought your house on Carlton Street in Johnson City, I mean, what disposition was made of that, I mean how, how did you happen to move from there to here?
Joe: There to here?
Dan: Yeah. You say you bought the house from George F. Johnson through your sister, right?
Joe: Ye-yes.
Dan: And, ah, I was just wondering, you sold that, did you, eventually?
Joe: Well, after my Mother died.
Dan: After your Mother died.
Joe: After my Mother died, then we, we sold the house…
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And the children each went their own way…
Dan: Yeah.
Joe: And that’s how I happened to, I got in business with ah John Cupina, who was First Ward Councilman…
Dan: Oh, yes.
Joe: Here in the City of Binghamton.
Dan: Oh, yes.
Joe: I was his partner in the liquor store at 54 Glenwood Avenue for 18 years, where I, we are right now…
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: With the liquor store downstairs. And after he died, we got, we…the liquor store was sold to someone else.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And, ah, I was still with the Boxing Commission at the time, so I was kept busy doing my work there.
Dan: Mm-hm. So, are you more or less retired as far as the Boxing-
Joe: Yeah.
Dan: -Commission is concerned?
Joe: Well, I still go there on a…I'm still, uh, associated with the Commission - but the trouble is, when you go there, everybody's new, nobody knows ya.
Dan: Yeah.
Joe: All the ones that I, all the people that I know, I'm 76 years old.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And all the people that I knew are either dead or gone.
Dan: [light laughter]
Joe: Or not working.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Joe: And that’s quite a thing when you go to New York now and, ah, find one of the people that you know and that's about it.
Dan: Uh-huh; uh-huh.
Joe: That’s why it's always a pleasure to meet Jack Sharkey down there.
Dan: Yeah.
Joe: That’s why we always go out together.
Dan: Uh-huh. Now, of course you have a banquet every year, don't you, for the old-timers?
Joe: Yeah, we have a banquet every year for the old timers, and our next banquet is, is, uh…May 13, 1978 at Johnson City, American Legion. And, ah, at that time, we honor so many fighters who have paid, ah, their dues and, ah, have-did their boxing from the old-timers. They've got to be over 50 years old before we, before we, ah, honor anybody.
Dan: I see.
Joe: In other words, they, tha…that’s the age limit.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Joe: And, ah, so we honor so many people every year, and it’s interesting. The next one is May 13th in Johnson Field or Johnson American Legion.
Dan: Mm-hm. Well, is there anything else you would like to add, Joe?
Joe: Well, I, the only thing is, I say I belong to the Holy Spirit Church here in Binghamton, New York. And, ah…as far as club membership is concerned, I belong to the different, ah, memberships in the church, and that’s about all. I, uh, I used to belong to a number of clubs, but I just, uh, got away from it all.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And, ah, I want to say one thing that, one of the main things of my, ah, career was as Scout commissioner - Boy Scout Commissioner here in the First Ward during my boxing days because I was popular at the time and I was able to be a Commissioner, and at that time we had 7 Boy Scout Troops in the First Ward. It took a lot of work it took a lot of time of mine to be the Commissioner and meet each and every one of those seven Troops during the weeks that I was on the Board. And I'm very proud of that because today there is only one Boy Scout Troop in the First Ward. Which means that the work isn't being done.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And that’s why the interest isn't being taken care of as it should be. There should be more Boy Scout Troops because a lot of the boys are being, getting in trouble…
Dan: Right.
Joe:...they have nothing to do…
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe:...and that’s why the interest should be in scouting.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And that’s why I am very proud of what I had done at that time, having, boy, ah…Boy Scout Commissionership.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And, uh, leading and raising a lot of the boys that I meet today are, ah, successful business men that were in my Boy Scout Troop.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: That time.
Dan: Mm-hm. Ah, Joe, what, ah…just as an afterthought, going back to when you first started fighting, what did you usually get for a fight?
Joe: Oh, $150.00…
Dan: A hundreh…
Joe: …two-hundreh…
Dan: $250.00?
Joe:...300. The best, the most money I ever made was $1,650.00.
Dan: Is that right?
Joe: For a 12-round bout.
Dan: And that was at the height of your career?
Joe: That’s right.
Dan: As a professional?
Joe: That was in 1923 - 24. Although $1,600.00 at that time was a lot of money.
Dan: That’s right.
Joe: If I had only invested it properly…
Dan: [light laughter]
Joe:...in E.J. or IBM stock…
Dan: Right, right…
Joe:...I'd a been alright today.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Joe: But, I, as a young fella, you don't think of those things.
Dan:
Joe: And that’s about the size of it.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Joe: Or if something come up like some stock that, ah, went world wild, why...I sure remember the 1929 crash here in the First Ward when Horvatt's Bank went up. And all the poor people of the First Ward lost their money. I, ah, I saw people crying down there at the bank. And those, those are things that a lot of the young people today don't, don’t remember because they, they naturally weren't born at the time.
Dan: Right.
Dan: Even born at the time. But, ah, when you see the way some of them are spending money today, it’s, ah, interesting to me because I've seen the hardships that people went through at that time.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: Especially during the, the, crash…
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe:...in 1929 and 1930.
Dan: Yeah…when you were working in the coal mines, what were you getting a day?
Joe: Well, it was, I think it was a dollar, an…close to two dollars a day. That’s about it.
Dan: Mm-hm. Yeah.
Joe: Yeah.
Dan: You went to work at 16?
Joe: That was in 19, uh…1918 or 19…1918.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: Yeah.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: Right during the war.
Dan: Yeah.
Joe: Yeah, because I was only 16 years old at the time.
Dan: Mm-hm.
Joe: And it was quite…when you think of the wages today…
Dan: [light chuckle] Well, inflation’s, er, inflation is eating that up.
Joe: It’s hard to believe.
Dan: It is, it is. Well Joe, I certainly thank you very much for your cooperation and, ah, ah…if there's anything that you couldn’t remember or anything that should come to mind after I leave, why, don't hesitate to call me - I will be glad to return.
Joe: I’ll be glad to do it.
Dan: Okay, I’ll…
Joe: Thank you.
Dan: I'll turn this off here.
Broome County Oral History Project
Interview with: Arthur G. Rider
Interveiwed by: Wanda Wood
Date of Interview: 30 May 1978
Wanda: This is Wanda Wood, interviewing Mr. Arthur G. Rider in the Press Building. Binghamton, New York. The date is 30 May, 1978. [muffled: 78]. Mr. Rider, you've been a citizen around this area for many years, and we'd like to get some of your experiences down on tape. And, ah, especially about your, your jewelry. Wholesale jewelry business. And, ah, could you begin by telling us where you were born?
Arthur: Oh, I was born up on, ah, River Road [Chenango Bridge], ah, about, ah, almost at the corner of the airport road. And, ah…my people lived there three…I think they were there three years before I was born. And then…and, ah, and I still own the, I still own the house. [clears throat] Well, they, ah…
Wanda: And they - were they farmers, or…?
Arthur: They were farmers, ayunh-yuh. Ayunh…farmers. Yeah, we had probably 20 cows, and 50 chickens, and, askah, three horses.
Wanda: [laughing] That was a big farm, probably.
Arthur: Well not, very big...I drove a horse to school when I was a kid, to Chenango Forks.
Wanda: Chenango Forks School.
Arthur: Ayuh.
Wanda: Where was that, then? Where was the school? Arthur: Well, the school was on the right hand side of, um…on the right hand side of, ah, Main St. in Chenango Forks. It's around, in where the new fire station is now.
Wanda: Oh. The building is gone, is it?
Arthur: Yes. The building’s gone. Oh, yes - it's been gone for quite a while.
Wanda: Did you have to go up that dug-road along the river? Arthur: Yeah, I went up the dug-road.
Wanda: [laughs]
Arthur: Drove the dug-road.
Wanda: That must have been pretty treacherous sometimes in the winter.
Arthur: Well, yes. Ayuh, it was. Yeah. Horse jumped out of the one track into the other where we were in it. I remember we all went down the, down the bank in the [laughs] - horse and all.
Wanda: [laughs] Overturned?
Arthur: But, I made it. Didn't do any damage, as I remember.
Wanda: [laughs] Oh, dear.
Arthur: Yeah.
Wanda: So you went to school up there until, when?
Arthur: Went to school, and that's where I got an idea that I wanted to learn the jewelry business. Used to go in to see the watchmaker theres every day. Got it in my head I wanted to learn watchmakin’, so then…I…
Wanda: Mm.
Arthur:...Went to…took a correspondence course in it first, and then I went to Lancaster, to Bowman's in Lancaster and studied - took up the watchmaking. Then I came back and got a job, mmm…Russell O'Brien, 54 Court St. I was there about a year…a year, I guess. And then I went...a year, a year…
Wanda: Was that a sort of an apprenticeship?
Arthur: No, no. I got a job, you know. It was, ah…I think for that age... You see, that was in 19…no, 1918 or 1919. Right? At the end of the war. And, ah, ah, considering, I don't thinkin’ I got such a bad job to start with. I got $20.00 a week.
Wanda: [chuckles]
Arthur: Then I raised me to 25, and then I went to thirty. I went down to 20 Court St., and I got, ah, finally got 35 after, after the five years. And, ah, I told you that I, about-a, the…I told you about living in the Hotchkiss? [Hotchkiss Boarding House, corner of Henry and Carroll Sts.]
Wanda: Yes, I'd like to hear about that.
Arthur: Yeah, on the same...ah, that, that was the time that boarded up there, and I ate there.
Wanda: It was the Hotchkiss?
Arthur: Ah, three meals a day in this boarding house. Linen tablecloths and, and, ah, colored waiters, and three meals a day for a dollar. So you see-
Wanda: Yes, it is-
Arthur: I wasn't doing so bad at, ah, on tw-25/$30.00 a week. And only paying out, eh, six and a couple’a, couple of dollars for a room.
Wanda: [laughs]
Arthur: In proportion, I was doin'...
[Both laugh]
Wanda: -far better than you would these days, that's for sure.
Arthur: In proportion, I was doing much better.
Wanda: Yeah.
Arthur: Uh-huh. But anyway, the watchmaking... there was a demand for them, must be, because I don't think - my wife's my same age and I don't think she got, as the secretary for a lawyer, I think she only got $6.00 a week when she started.
Wanda: Mm-hm. Well, why - when you were - this job, the second job you had, were you watchmaking, or, or were you…?
Arthur: Repairing watches. Repairing watches.
Wanda: Repairing. And then how did you get from there into jewelry?
Arthur: Well, [sardonic chuckle] well I got mad that - ‘s’well, I got mad that-s, I wanted to travel on the road, so I applied for a job up to the Pond's in Syracuse, the ones that sell Keepsake now?
Wanda: Mm-hm.
Arthur: And-a went up there and that's how I got a job. They gave me a job. Traveled on the road…on commission. Straight commission.
Wanda: Huh. Did you cover one certain area, or…?
Arthur: Well, I covered New York State, mostly. Wanda: Is that a fact?
Arthur: Yeah, traveled around New York State.
Wanda: What was that, by train or car, or what?
Arthur: Part of the time by train. In the wintertime, I traveled by train, wintertime [summertime] I used the car, but, ah, I never traveled on the train too much.
Wanda: Yeah.
Arthur: Have some, but not too much.
Wanda: And you took your sample cases and…
Arthur: Ayuh, I took samples.
Wanda: And went to jewelry stores?
Arthur: Jewelry stores, yeah.
Wanda: Mm-hm.
Arthur: Well…
Wanda: I imagine the styles of jewelry has changed a lot since then, hasn't it?
Arthur: Well, yes, I guess. Not too, I don't think…not too much, as I know of.
Wanda: Wasn't jewelry quite, oh, ornate…in those days?
Arthur: I don't remember. We sold - oh, used to sell cufflinks, lots of cufflinks, ah, and lots of cuff buttons, and lots of, ah, Waldemar chains [watch chains]'n…and, ah…oh, little pins. Small, little pins for the ladies, a-and, ah…oh, I don't know. Then we sold watches. See, a wholesaler those days sold watches.
Wanda: Uh-huh.
Arthur: Now, they don't.
Wanda: Oh, they don't? It's gone too big now?
Arthur: Well, it's gone... see, during the war in 1940, they all switched over from, ah…from wholesalers, direct from the manufacturer to the retailer…’bout 1940.
Wanda: Oh.
Arthur: So that, that, ah, that ended a lot of the big wholesalers.
Wanda: Cut out the middleman, didn't it?
Arthur: Yep. Few of them, few of them survived. And some didn't.
Wanda: Yeah.
Arthur: Down…so…
Wanda: What, ah…how did you…? You must know a lot about diamonds. How did you get into that branch of the jewelry?
Arthur: Well, I go - I guess…when I worked for the Pond's, ah, I was interested. They seemed to be interested in, ah, I sold the - you see, they had the trade na- mark name, “Keepsake.”
Wanda: Mm-hm.
Arthur: And, ah…I sold the first assortment of them I sold down in Honesdale, Pennsylvania. And, ah, Robert Pond sold the first one in, ah, the first ring in, in, ah, Mike Lisson's in Syracuse on Salina Street.
Wanda: Hm.
Arthur: Then I got it in my hea- I worked for them 10 years, then, then I got it in my head I wanted to try it myself, so…
[Both laugh]
Arthur: Then I went to, then I went to work at that. Then, then I went to work for an outfit in Lancaster where I sold the same kind of, uh, well, jewelry. Hamilton watches; Elgin watches; every kind of silverware and whatnot. And so then I, then I got it in my head I wanted to go to Europe. I thought, if they could go to Europe I could go to Europe, so I [laughs] the Pond's - I figured, if they go to Europe and buy diamonds, I could, too.
Wanda: [laughs]
Arthur: So in 19 - lessee…1938. I went, I went to Europe and bought some stones over there.
Wanda: Well, where did you go for that?
Arthur: Well, I went to, I went to, um…went to Antwerp first. Then I went, ‘n’, then I went from there to Amsterdam. Went to…they had offices in both places. And I stayed there four/five days and, ah, bought a few stones. ‘N’ I always, ah, I kept the contact for years and years...there.
Wanda: So you've dealt with that same-
Arthur: Yeah, I did for years and years.
Wanda: -contact?
Arthur: Yeah. So then I come back, and I didn't go to Europe again, ah, for another…see…not ‘till about 1960…probably not…what? ‘Bout 19sh…guess about 1970, I guess we went the second time. Of course, the war come on, you see.
Wanda: Mm-hm.
Arthur: And blocked ya from the, the second war, there. That blocked you from, from going over there.
Wanda: Did you, was there trouble with supplying, uh, diamonds from, ah, Holland during the war?
Arthur: Hmmm, well, I…
Wanda: Do you remember?
Arthur: Well, during the war, you couldn't get 'em from over there. They were all bottled up. I mean, ah, eh…the Nazis took a lot of them and, eh, ah…you couldn't get - no. The man I knew, he was, happened to be in America when, when, um…when Hitler marched into Holland, He was in America.
Wanda: Oh.
Arthur: And, ah, he stayed here several years.
Wanda: Hm.
Arthur: Until the thing got quieted down...yes. No, you couldn't, there was no, no diamonds come outta there during the war.
Wanda: Hm.
Arthur: None, none at all...then. So I, uh…I dunno. I…
Wanda: How did you, how'd you supply your customers, then?
Arthur: Oh, it was very difficult. Of course, there's an awful - people have awful big stocks of them in America. And, ah, I dunno where they come from. The price was very high then. And, [sardonic chuckle] but it just - I couldn't supply them very good. Wanda: Mm-hm.
Arthur: Then of course, the government - you couldn't travel because you couldn't get stamps to travel.
Wanda: That's right.
Arthur: Yeah. You had to bootleg-
Wanda: Strange how we forget, isn't it?
Arthur: You had to buy bootleg gasoline.
[Both laugh]
Arthur:God, you don't remember any of that stuff!
Wanda: Oh, well…a little...
Arthur: A little...
Wanda: Some of the fringes about stamping, stamps and so forth.
Arthur: That was a disgrace. That's the reason I, I didn't go for this, ah, about this gasoline business this time. I didn't believe there was any shortage. There wasn't any shortage then. They claimed there wasn't any shortage then.
Wanda: Yeah.
Arthur: All they were out to…try to stop you from travelin' or something. I guess they…
Wanda: Yeah.
Arthur: There wasn't any shortage of gasoline; they had gasoline those days.
Wanda: And it doesn't seem as though there's any real shortage now.
Arthur: No, I don't believe there isn’t any, probably isn't any real shortage now. They just…they'd like to have you believe that there was, and...
Wanda: Ayuh.
Arthur: But there isn't - when you see the cars on the road, you know there isn't.
Wanda: [chuckles] That’s certainly-
Arthur: They didn't raise the price of it much.
Wanda: No.
Arthur: No. Now, that’s been-
Wanda: So now you, now you, ah, you've been in this one particular spot here for, what? 35 years?
Arthur: About…I guess about 35 years I've been here. I'm not dead sure, but I think about 35 years.
Wanda: When you first started on your own, where did you set up business?
Arthur: Over in the old Savings Bank building, back of the Marine-Midland Bank. You know-
Wanda: Mm-hm.
Arthur: The one between City Hall and, and, ah...I, I rented a room over there for, ah…for, ah, $20.00 a month.
Wanda: [laughs]
Arthur: And I…
Wanda: To start with?
Arthur: And I finally got in two rooms, then three rooms. And, ah, they bought, and, ah…that's when the old, that's when the old Binghamton Savings Bank was there.
Wanda: Mm-hm.
Arthur: Then they bought, then, uh, then they took over the, ah…which bank was it there? Um…another savings bank pretty near went flooey? Um, or over in the location where they are now. I can't name the bank. I oughta be able to.
Wanda: It wouldn't be the Citizen's…?
Arthur: No-
Wanda: …Bank?
Arthur -the Citizen's was up along here. [Chenango St.]
Wanda: The People's Bank?
Arthur: No, the, um...
Wanda: People's Bank?
Arthur: There was a savings bank - another one, over there.
Wanda: Huh. I'll have to look into that.
Arthur: No, I can't name ‘em. But, they were going to go flooey, and, ah, the Binghamton Savings Bank…ah, took them over.
Wanda: Oh.
Arthur: Then they eventually moved over there. Eventually moved over there.
Wanda: And that's now the Marine-Midland building, right? Arthur: No, no, no.
Wanda: Oh, you’re telling-
Arthur: Over - where the Savings Bank is now.
Wanda: Oh, I see.
Arthur: There was, there was, there was, ah…another savings bank over there. Somebody could tell you that.
Wanda: Mm-hm.
Arthur: But I, I can't.
Wanda: We'll have to look that up.
Arthur: ‘Cause Citizen's Bank was right along in here some where. They went flooey, too.
Wanda: They really folded, didn't they?
Arthur: Ayuh.
Wanda: Ayuh.
Arthur: Ayuh, but the savings, the other one [Chenango Valley Savings Bank- 66 Exchange St.], was gonna fold, I guess. But they went.. the Binghamton Savings Bank took ‘em over…
Wanda: Yeah.
Arthur: So that saved them.
Wanda: How did, how did the Depression affect your business? Were people willing to spend [unintelligible]?
Arthur: They didn't have any money and you couldn't, ah…no. There wasn't any business, hardly.
Wanda: Bad times, huh?
Arthur: Yeah. Yes. Very, very...bad. 'Course, you could travel around the-then. I could travel around for, say, $35.00 a week. I could travel around and go, and be gone five days probably, for 35, $40.00.
Wanda: Oh.
Arthur: And, ah, now…now you go out 'n in one day you spend $50.00. Ridiculous!
Wanda:...Motels and that sort of thing.
Arthur: I stayed down in Corning the other night. And, ah, their rate, um…normally, maybe I'd get in there for 24 or $25.00. But, I ended up paying 30. And, ah, they said that's all they had.
Wanda: I hope that was a good night's sleep.
Arthur: Well…[chuckles] I slept pretty fair. I told them they could give me a room on the back 'n they gave me one on the front, but it was all right; I slept.
Wanda: [laughs]
Arthur: It's a very beautiful hotel - or motel.
Wanda: Yes.
Arthur: That Hilton in, ah, Corning.
Wanda: Oh.
Arthur: It's very nice. It's a nice…
Wanda: Do you do much traveling now?
Arthur: Oh, I travel. Oh, three or four days, three or four days one week. And then maybe not much the next.
Wanda: Yeah.
Arthur: And, ah..no, I keep, I go around... keep goin'.
Wanda: You to- you've had a very successful career, I should think.
Arthur: No, I wouldn't say so.
Wanda: Well, I know you're a well-respected businessman in Binghamton.
Arthur: [laughs] I don't know about that.
Wanda: …Who do you think influenced you the most... during your life?
Arthur: Hm…I…well, I think it was, ah, probably those people I worked for in Syracuse. I think, ah…they probably did, ayuh, in a way. Because they were quite, quite sucs, quite successful, and they were…kept themselves up in very good order, and, ah, and, ah…very, they were very successful. 'Course they, they built that business. When I worked for ‘em, they were doin', ah…oh, when I started, probably doing a half a million. And now they're doing 18 million.
Wanda: That's Keepsake Diamonds?
Arthur: Ayuh.
Wanda: There's one right there. [laughs]
Arthur: Ayuh. Yeah.
Wanda: Well, it did-
Arthur: Well, and so that probably influenced me. And the man in Europe taught me more about stones than anybody else. He’s…
Wanda: What is there to learn? I'm absolutely...I don't know anything about them. What is there to learn about diamonds, cutting and all that sort of thing?
Arthur: Oh, there's so much to know that it's, it's, ah, pitiful. I mean…
Wanda: [laughs] Not enough time today, eh?
Arthur: Oh, no. You couldn't, ah…but it's color, and, and, ah…color and make and imperfection and, and everything goes into the, puttin' the value on ‘em. Everything. Very complicated, very complicated thing.
Wanda: I notice you have some pretty complicated looking machinery here, too. [chuckles]
Arthur: Well, I - yeah. Yeah, a microscope. Yeah. On some of ‘em. And scales, and, and, ah…there's some of ‘em, ah…have more then I have. Now you're coming along to a period where they're bringing in these diamonds that are not diamonds, but, um…this, ah, uh, cubic zirconia. Ah, is a new material. And the hardness is way up there, and, ah, refractive index is, was, was way up, too. and that's, ah, that's really a fooler. More, a bigger fooler than they've ever had.
Wanda: Is that right?
Arthur: Yeah. Bigger fooler than they've ever had.
Wanda: You mean there’s been others? [unintelligible]
Arthur: Oh, there's other, been other things, sure. But this thing…this thing, it’s really got 'em a little worried, I think. [chuckles]
Wanda: Do they sparkle just as good as the other ones? Arthur: Well, ah, they can be a…it would be a job to, to separate ‘em.
Wanda: Is that a fact?
Arthur: Yep. I don't own one; I'm gonna buy one. I'm gonna buy one or two of ‘em. But, I haven't.
Wanda: They aren't anywhere as near as, as expensive as diamonds, right?
Arthur: Oh no, no, no, no. No. No.
Wanda: Diamonds are still good, solid investment, aren’t they?
Arthur: Ayuh.
Wanda: Always probably will be.
Arthur: Have been, I guess. I hope so.
Wanda: Yeah.
Arthur: Price goes up and up and up.
Wanda: Mm-hm.
Arthur: Yeah. So much that you can't believe it.
Wanda: Well, would you advise young people these days to get into the business that you're in?
Arthur: No. I wouldn't.
Wanda: You wouldn't?
Arthur: No. I think it's too, I think it's too difficult. Stores, you see, there’s, it's getting so there are very few stores.
Wanda: Mm-hm.
Arthur: Yeah, very few stores. When I started out, you could go to…well, now the fellow from Greene does pretty good, but there was a store in Oxford that, they did just, just as well. Of course, the store in Norwich, that's all right. But, then there was Sherburne, there was Earlville, and there was Hamilton. Always had jewelry stores...and they don't now.
Wanda: That's true.
Arthur: No. When I was a kid, you used to go to - or when I started, I’d go to Newark Valley and stay half a day. And, ah, then I'd go to Nichols and stay half a day. And, ah, get an order.
Wanda: Is that right?
Arthur: But, you couldn't do that now.
Wanda: Huh. Well, that's kinda sad, isn't it?
Arthur: In a way, yes.
Wanda: Yeah.
Arthur: Those towns have...gone down markedly.
Wanda: How ‘bout this…original man that you said inspired you to become, get interested in jewelry in, in, ah, Chenango Forks…what kind of a place did he have? A jewelry-?
Arthur: Oh, a little bit of a, of a, ah…watchmaking shop.
Wanda: Was it in the old hotel there or what?
Arthur: No, it was the next building beyond that hotel, and it's, eh, where the post office is built out - ah, the building is, ah, the front built out on it?
Wanda: Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Arthur: That's where - Al Elliot, his name was.
Wanda: Oh.
Arthur: And, ah…ya know, he was…he was a pretty good watchmaker. He was a general mechanic.
Wanda: Huh.
Arthur: Ayuh, he was…he was very, ah, good watchmaker, I think - but not a very good businessman, I don’t think.
Wanda: [laughs] That’s-
Arthur: Hey, he was long on guns. He could shoot…and, ah, he really could. He was a terrific marksman.
Wanda: Huh.
Arthur: Yeah.
Wanda: So his store probably had a lot of other things besides watches in it, then.
Arthur: Largely. Largely, I'd say. 'Twasn't much of a store.
Wanda: [chuckles]
Arthur: As you think of it now, not much of a store. But, he made a living there.
Wanda: Uh-huh.
Arthur: Had one of the first cars in Chenango Forks; an old, Maxwell car.
Wanda: [laughs]
Arthur: Ayuh.
Wanda: I'd like to see that again.
Arthur: You wouldn't see that, no.
Wanda: Well, what, uh…anything more you wanna-
Arthur: No, I don't want to-
Wanda: -tell us about, to…?
Arthur: I don't want to tell you any more.
Wanda: I've taken up quite a bit of your time already, anyway.
Arthur: No. I don't care about that.
Wanda: Well, it's been very enjoyable and I want to thank you very much.
Arthur: But I didn’t tell you much.
Wanda: Oh, I think you did.
Arthur: You do think so?
Wanda: Yes.