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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jeff White
Date of Interview
1997-07-27
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
83:54
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Vietnam War rallies; Women's Rights Movement; Vietnam Veterans; Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; Peter Max poster; Activism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Vietnam War rallies; Women's Rights Movement; Vietnam Veterans; Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; Peter Max poster; Activism.</span>
Subject LCSH
Civil rights workers; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; White, Jeff--Interviews
Biographical Text
Jeff White graduated from Villanova University in 1968. He joined the U.S.Army in 1969 as a Pioneer Combat Engineer. He served in Vietnam as a clerk from 1969 to 1970. Since then, White has been actively volunteering in veteran's causes including serving as past president of the Delaware County, PA Chapter 67 of Vietnam Veterans of America and serving as a delegate to the Pennsylvania State Council and Vietnam Veterans of America National Conventions.
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jeff White
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
White, Jeff ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights workers; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; White, Jeff--Interviews
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1997-07-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.171a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.171b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
83:54
Description
An account of the resource
Jeff White graduated from Villanova University in 1968. He joined the U.S.Army in 1969 as a Pioneer Combat Engineer. He served in Vietnam as a clerk from 1969 to 1970. Since then, White has been actively volunteering in veteran's causes including serving as past president of the Delaware County, PA Chapter 67 of Vietnam Veterans of America and serving as a delegate to the Pennsylvania State Council and Vietnam Veterans of America National Conventions.
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Michael Zuckerman
Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
150:21
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
3 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Michael Zuckerman is a historian, scholar and author. He is a Professor of History Emeritus at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Zuckerman He taught courses in popular culture, national character, human nature, and religion. He recevied his Bachelor's degree from the University of Pennsylvania and his Ph.D. at Harvard University in American Studies."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Michael Zuckerman is a historian, scholar, and author. He is a Professor of History Emeritus at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Zuckerman taught courses in popular culture, national character, human nature, and religion. He received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Pennsylvania and his Ph.D. at Harvard University in American Studies.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam Veterans; Vietnam Memorial; Nineteen sixties; Counterculture; Baby boom generation; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; anti-war movement; Black Panther Movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam Veterans; Vietnam Memorial; Nineteen sixties; Counterculture; Baby boom generation; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; anti-war movement; Black Panther Movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.</span>
Subject LCSH
Historians; College teachers; Authors, American--20th century; University of Pennsylvania; Popular culture; Zuckerman, Michael--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dr. Michael Zuckerman
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Zuckerman, Michael ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Historians; College teachers; Authors, American--20th century; University of Pennsylvania; Popular culture; Zuckerman, Michael--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Michael Zuckerman is a historian, scholar, and author. He is a Professor of History Emeritus at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Zuckerman taught courses in popular culture, national character, human nature, and religion. He received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Pennsylvania and his Ph.D. at Harvard University in American Studies.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.172a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.172b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.172c
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
150:21
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c837a6a1c48109543f09e069a35145c0.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Marilyn Blatt Young
Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
62:58
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Marilyn Young (1937-2017) was a leftist, feminist, anti-war historian, and professor of history at New York University. She was a founding member of the Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars. She received her Bahelor's degree form Vassar College and got her Ph.D. from Harvard University. Dr. Young's Ph.D. dissertation became her first book. \n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Marilyn Young (1937-2017) was a leftist, feminist, anti-war historian, and professor of history at New York University. She was a founding member of the Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars. She received her Bachelor's degree from Vassar College and got her Ph.D. from Harvard University. Dr. Young's Ph.D. dissertation became her first book. <br /></span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Generation gap; Jane Fonda; John Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Kent State; Jackson State."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Generation gap; Jane Fonda; John Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Kent State; Jackson State.</span>
Subject LCSH
Peace movements; Feminists; College teachers; New York University; Historians; Young, Marilyn Blatt--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dr. Marilyn Young
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Young, Marilyn Blatt ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Peace movements; Feminists; College teachers; New York University; Historians; Young, Marilyn Blatt--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Marilyn Young (1937-2017) was a leftist, feminist, anti-war historian, and professor of history at New York University. She was a founding member of the Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars. She received her Bachelor's degree from Vassar College and got her Ph.D. from Harvard University. Dr. Young's Ph.D. dissertation became her first book.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.173a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.173b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
62:58
-
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rick Synchef
Date of Interview
2010-12-15
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
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153:58
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Black Panther; Angela Davis; Vietnam Veterans; Baby boom generation; Beat generation; Earth Day; Activism; Vietnam War; Free speech movement; Activism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5009,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Black Panther; Angela Davis; Vietnam Veterans; Baby boom generation; Beat generation; Earth Day; Activism; Vietnam War; Free speech movement; Activism.</span>
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Rick Synchef is a counterculture collector and historian. He began collecting political paper and ephemera when he was an undergraduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison during the 1960s and 70s. Synchef consistently meets writers and obtains autographs for his large collection of books related to the 1960s."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6535,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,1184274],"15":"Arial"}">Rick Synchef is a counterculture collector and historian. He began collecting political paper and ephemera when he was an undergraduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison during the 1960s and 70s. Synchef consistently meets writers and obtains autographs for his large collection of books related to the 1960s.</span>
Subject LCSH
Counterculture--United States--20th century; Historians; Synchef, Rick--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Rick Synchef
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 15 December 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:02):
Testing one, two. Okay. The first question I have been asking at least the last 50 people that I have been interviewing is, Rick, can you describe your growing up years, your high school years, where you grew up, maybe some experiences you had at that school prior to going off to the University of Wisconsin to college, and also if you had any early role models before you went off to college. Either parents or people in the news or people that you read about in books.
RS (00:00:42):
I had a fairly normal childhood growing up in the suburbs of Chicago. I want to go off the record. I do not know how much of this you want. I may say more than is necessary, so you may-
SM (00:00:55):
Go right ahead.
RS (00:00:56):
Okay. President of my class in eighth grade, politically interested, writing letters to the editor in high school for our local newspaper. I have to go off for a second. If I make grammatical mistakes, will I be able to correct them at-
SM (00:01:12):
Oh yeah. You will be able to correct them because you will see the transcript.
RS (00:01:17):
Because I would rather just speak and if I say something, I do not want to have to worry about my grammar so much when I speak with you.
SM (00:01:22):
That is okay.
RS (00:01:23):
Okay.
SM (00:01:24):
Yep.
RS (00:01:24):
All right. Always interested in politics. Followed politics. Senior year in high school, actually just graduating after senior year in high school. It was 1968. Since I just graduated, I was not allowed by my parents to go down to the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in August at night. I went with a couple of friends the following day to the Grant Park area. We walked into the Conrad Hilton Hotel, and this tear gas smell was just terrible. Started tearing up right away in the lobby of the hotel. But go back a bit. I was very normal, very athletic, a jock in high school, but was interested in going to a good university and furthering my education, and at that point, I was already fairly sure I was going to become an attorney but did not know. We went to visit a number of colleges and one of them was the University of Wisconsin in Madison. I had already been to some fairly conservative schools like Miami of Ohio, University of Illinois. Then when I got to Madison, we had walked out of the administration building after meeting with a counselor, or somebody regarding college admissions, and they were doing construction across the street and there was plywood everywhere and on one big sheet of plywood, written in spray paint, "LBJ sucks." I had a feeling that is where I wanted to go. Looked and sounded like fun. People on roller skates, dogs with bandanas. That was for me.
SM (00:03:30):
Yeah. Yeah, that was (19)68 and that summer... That was an unbelievable year. Now, I know I have some questions later on here and I am going to ask you about that year and your years in college, but going to... You went down there. What did you think of that whole experience, that Democratic convention with the police and against the young people, and they were all students, but there were a lot of young people there, and of course, there was chaos even inside the Democratic Convention itself?
RS (00:04:04):
A complete overreaction to what I viewed as non-violent political participation in the democratic process. Of course, being born in Chicago and having a family or relatives in Chicago since the 18(19)70s, I was fairly familiar with the Chicago police, but not firsthand. Never had a problem. Parenthetically, I grew up in a suburb 25 miles north of Chicago and only saw "the good parts of Chicago" when I came into the city. But I was shocked seeing people being beaten with clubs, tear gas, National Guard, Army... I do not know the exact terminology, but there was an Army personnel carrier with tripod-mounted machine guns and barbed wire around them. Chicago was transformed into an armed camp. It was quite an eye-opener at 18 years old.
SM (00:05:17):
And you were not allowed to be there at night, but you were there during the day.
RS (00:05:22):
Two friends and I went down there after the event in Grant Park that night, and on Michigan Avenue then, the prior evening. The smell of tear gas was just really awful. It was new to me. First time. Really awful.
SM (00:05:47):
I bet you when you first heard the rock group, Chicago, they had that first album and it was a prologue. The whole world is watching. The whole world is watching. Did you hear any of that?
RS (00:06:02):
I did. Actually, the name on their first album was Chicago Transferred Authority. For obvious reasons, they changed it. They shortened it to Chicago. I did. I knew I was interested in politics before then, but I became even more interested and I ended up majoring in political science.
SM (00:06:25):
Well, as a young person at 18... I know this. I got this question later, but that was the year before you graduated from high school when Martin Luther King was killed in April, and Bobby Kennedy was killed in Los Angeles in June, and this is before your high school graduation, and then you got the Chicago Convention in August.
RS (00:06:47):
Stunning. Absolutely stunning to see people who I looked up to and admired, assassinated. I did not really know what to make of it at that time, being 18 years old, but I knew something was terribly wrong.
SM (00:07:04):
When you went to your high school graduation, that must have been around the third week of June, or somewhere around there?
RS (00:07:10):
A bit earlier, but yes.
SM (00:07:12):
Yeah. Was what was the theme of your high school graduation? Was there talk of what was happening in America in (19)68? The main speaker of the student speakers losing those two great leaders, but the nation seemed torn apart. What was your high school graduation like in terms of what people were saying?
RS (00:07:33):
It appeared that what was going on in the larger world was irrelevant. It was a very standard high school graduation, held at a very nice facility called Virginia Park in Highland Park, Illinois, and it was as if those events had not happened.
SM (00:07:54):
Wow. What was it like? And I am getting to your college years at the University of Wisconsin. I got quite a few questions here. I had a friend that was in graduate school with me from the University of Wisconsin. He was a political science major and he was a PhD candidate, and his name was Alex Sapkowski. Does that name ever ring a bell to you?
RS (00:08:14):
It does not.
SM (00:08:15):
Now, he came from Wisconsin, and he was there at Ohio State in (19)71, but what was it like to be a college student at the University of Wisconsin from (19)68 to (19)72? Just your overall feeling when you look at that four years, what was it like because people reading this are going to be high school and college students that were not alive then.
RS (00:08:39):
Initially, I was a "straight person", meaning I went to see a Janice Joplin concert in 1969 wearing a coat and tie. I thought that is what you did when you went to a concert. Dressed nicely for class and took my studies very seriously.
SM (00:09:03):
Right. Yeah. During those four years, what kinds of protests did you see and what were the issues that they were protesting?
RS (00:09:14):
There were a number of issues. Everything from civil rights to the war, of course, and maybe I should say the Vietnam War for young people. The Vietnam War. The environmental movement was just starting. The first birthday was held in April 1970, and the University of Wisconsin was prominently involved in the Senator Gaylord Nelson was the, I believe, first person who proposed having an birthday.
SM (00:09:46):
Yeah. And I interviewed him for my book.
RS (00:09:49):
I saw that.
SM (00:09:51):
Yeah.
RS (00:09:51):
I saw that. So there was a lot of what you could call a consciousness-raising in so many different areas from migrant workers to civil rights to, of course, the war and the... To borrow one expression, the military industrial complex, but medicine was a very progressive, politically aware, and politically savvy place.
SM (00:10:29):
Obviously, were they... Were a lot of the students against ROTC on campus too? Blocking military recruiters. Was that...
RS (00:10:38):
In fact, freshman year in college, ROTC orientation was compulsory as a class-
SM (00:10:46):
Oh my gosh.
RS (00:10:48):
... For incoming freshman. And that was changed; I believe a year or two after I became a student. Near the ROTC building... I do not know if you want to print this, it was regularly burned down during the spring. It was an annual riot.
SM (00:11:08):
Oh, you mean... Oh, they burned it down there too?
RS (00:11:13):
Yes.
SM (00:11:14):
Well, how many times was it burned down?
RS (00:11:16):
I believe at least once annually.
SM (00:11:19):
Oh my goodness. Kent State was only that one time. Wow. That was crazy. And of course, did they have to call in the National Guard at your campus?
RS (00:11:32):
National Guard was on campus regularly. Bayonets, tear gas... There was a Black student strike in the winter of 1969, and that was really the first large demonstration that I saw on campus. And subsequent to that, there were of course, many, many demonstrations primarily having to do with Vietnam War.
SM (00:12:08):
At that time, at the University of Wisconsin, what was the relationship between the students? Now, I am not sure, again, what percentage of your students were involved in anti-war activity or activism, but what was the relationship between a lot of the students and the administration and the faculty?
RS (00:12:33):
The relationship between the students and the administration was adversarial. They viewed students as a... This might be too strong. I do not want to... I was going to say necessary evil. I do not want to say. Something necessary, but I believe the [inaudible] were doing students a favor to let them attend the university, and that they were not sufficiently grateful for their opportunity. Politically, the faculty was by and large, very progressive, and there were a number of excellent professors who taught... Give me a... Who used materials such as by Howard Zen and other liberal political scientists. There were George Moscone and Harvey Goldberg come to mind as two professors who were teaching political science in a... I mean, I am searching for a word. I do not want to say alternative way, but using-using materials that were not customary.
SM (00:13:57):
Yeah. Yeah. Were the faculty more kind of partners with the students as opposed to... Were faculty mostly against the administration too?
RS (00:14:10):
I suppose it would depend on the department.
SM (00:14:14):
Right.
RS (00:14:16):
I do not want to make generalizations. This was a long time ago.
SM (00:14:21):
Right.
RS (00:14:21):
But I believe in the hard sciences, they were more conservative rather than in the liberal arts areas, they were, I believe, much more progressive.
SM (00:14:34):
Yeah, I know that it is hard to generalize, even when you talk about 74 million boomers. You can only... Depending on who you talk to, only about 5 percent to 10 percent were ever involved in any kind of activism during that area in the entire nation.
RS (00:14:52):
Well, I assure you, at the University of Wisconsin, it were much more demonstrations. Brought out on occasion 10,000, 20,000 people.
SM (00:15:00):
Wow.
RS (00:15:01):
And just very, very [inaudible].
SM (00:15:09):
So, the relationship between... How was the relationship between students and the community of Madison and the Police Department of Madison during those four years?
RS (00:15:19):
Well, I believe it was a... I am hearing feedback.
SM (00:15:27):
I do not. I am fine on my end. Are you having feedback?
RS (00:15:34):
I am. It just started too.
SM (00:15:37):
Okay. Are you okay now or...
RS (00:15:40):
Let me see if I hear it. That is better.
SM (00:15:42):
Okay.
RS (00:15:42):
That is better. Could you restate the question?
SM (00:15:47):
Yeah. Well, the question was the relationship between the students and the community of Madison, the citizens of Madison, and-
RS (00:15:54):
I believe it was more like a traditional town versus gown atmosphere. Police, of course, being blue collar and from, by and large, parts of the city of Madison, which were not located near the campus, really disliked many of the students intensely. They viewed them as spoiled and... Let me think. Overprivileged people who were fortunate even to be there, and that they were in some ways desecrating a place where many of them had grown up. I can refer you to a movie called The War At Home, which is excellent.
SM (00:16:45):
I have it.
RS (00:16:46):
You have it?
SM (00:16:46):
Yes.
RS (00:16:46):
Okay.
SM (00:16:49):
Yeah. This is something too important, because I noticed this on my campus, but I wanted to hear from you. There seemed.... What was the relationship in the late (19)60s and early seventies between White students and African American students? There seemed to be a split.
RS (00:17:07):
In Madison, I think by... Or I should not say Madison. I said at the university, by and large, I think it was very good.
SM (00:17:14):
Because at around (19)69, (19)70, you noticed at Kent State, there were no students of color at that protest. They were told to basically not be seen by the African-American leaders of the campus, and actually the student government president was African-American, but what happened is during the Black Power there was a split where most of the white students continued protesting the Vietnam War and African American students started fighting for rights for African Americans, and so there was a split. Did you see that on your campus?
RS (00:17:52):
I really did not. I would say that they were not mutually exclusive, that many of the activities involved both. There was a large overlap.
SM (00:18:04):
Yeah. It got so bad at Ohio State University that in (19)71 and (19)72, in the Ohio Union, African American students had their own separate dances and White students had their dances in another part of the building, so there was some tension there.
RS (00:18:22):
I cannot recall something like that happening. I am not saying that it did not. But I vividly recall events such as what happened on the night of the massacre at Kent State with police charging groups of students, police helicopters hovering overhead, massive amount of tear gas. They used so much tear gas on the campus that they eventually ran out and switched to pepper gas, which hurt you more.
SM (00:18:53):
Oh my, God. Did you guys have graduation that year, or did they close the school?
RS (00:18:58):
No, everything happened, but the classes after Kent State were... I should not say the word canceled. Were switched to using a pass/fail system for the semester. But the police would throw tear gas everywhere students congregated, whether it was in the student union, the library... I should not say the library. Let me strike that. I cannot promise that. In the student union, fraternity houses, places of worship, anywhere that students congregated to get away from them. No place was safe.
SM (00:19:37):
Who were some of the speakers that you saw that came to your campus during the year (19)68 to (19)72? I do not know if you went to see these speakers. Could be national leaders or activists; did you go to see speakers?
RS (00:19:58):
I have to tell you. In all honesty, I do not remember. I am sure I did, but I cannot recall specific people. I just know that many of them came to campus, including people during Chicago Southern Conspiracy trial. But yes, many, many people came to campus. I believe Todd Gitlin, who had former president of SDS, Tom Hayden, I believe Paul Krassner came. Many, many people came to the campus, but frankly, I was not as interested in the leaders as I was learning about the issues.
SM (00:20:39):
Very good. What was the relationship between the protestors on campus at Wisconsin and members of fraternities and sororities and some of the student athletes and the ROTC students?
RS (00:20:56):
Initially, it seemed like an adversarial relationship, but what the police actions and the administration's conduct resulted in was radicalizing formerly conservative people like fraternity members. When the police come in and throw tear gas in your fraternity, you suddenly do not like them quite much.
SM (00:21:19):
Oh my, God. Yeah.
RS (00:21:22):
So, they had a reverse effect from what they intended in that they caused people to question authority and say that things did not work as they had assumed that they were.
SM (00:21:42):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It is interesting because that is what the free speech movement was all about. A lot of the people in Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65, did not agree with the new left and their politics, but when they were not allowed to hand out literature, that was an attack on all students and they all kind of united.
RS (00:22:04):
I think this was a longstanding policy by the University of California to keep the campus "pure".
SM (00:22:11):
Yes.
RS (00:22:12):
And refrain from any political activity on campus, which included the setting up of card tables with literature on them, which resulted in the free speech movement in the fall of (19)64.
SM (00:22:32):
And it is interesting too, that what was going on in American in the fifties, were there fear of communists and that kind of led to some of the mentality of college administrations and so forth. Did you see the evolution of other movements on your campus at that time? Because you were on a university campus in (19)68 to (19)72 when just about all the movements came to fruition, particularly in the early seventies, because that is when the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Native American movement, and even the Black Power and a lot of the Black Panthers, kind of all evolved around that timeframe as kind of an offshoot of the anti-war movement and civil rights movements. Did you see those evolving on your campus?
RS (00:23:19):
I knew they were present, including the environmental movement that I previously mentioned, but the primary issue for me was the Vietnam War, and for many, I believe. People my age were being sent over there to die for what many of us thought was no logical reason until they already left. I believe that the goals were not really clear enough to make the... Let me rephrase that. I believe that young people did not see that the end justified the means.
SM (00:24:08):
And what were some of your classes like? Did you have professors that said, "Today, I am not going to teach my class. We are going to talk about what is going on in the world?" There seemed to be some of that. Did you have that in any of your classes?
RS (00:24:21):
Yes, I did. It was easy to do when you smelled tear gas [inaudible] through the windows of the classroom.
SM (00:24:27):
Yeah. What were some of those conversations? You are sitting in a room with all your fellow students. What were some of the thoughts that were going through some of those young people's minds?
RS (00:24:40):
Well, I think most of the people were as naive as I was when we started. It was quite an eye-opener. Of course, there were a few students from Europe that did not see this as anything unusual who thought socialism was... God, let me rephrase. That is awful. I am making generalizations. But we discussed socialism and other more leftist ideas as if they were completely normal and nothing to be afraid of. But again, for myself and for many people being suburbanized. This was quite an eye-opener.
SM (00:25:23):
Oh, yeah. So in the... And were there any teach-ins at your school?
RS (00:25:30):
I remember one for the environment. I remember for the Vietnam War. I also remember reading lists of people who had died that week. The area around the university library became probably the main meeting area for student demonstrations. And at times there were many thousands of people there.
SM (00:26:01):
Now, these demonstrations, were they approved or did they just kind of happened?
RS (00:26:07):
They were spontaneous in many times, and often people would hand out pieces of paper saying, "Meeting 8:00 PM, library mall," or something like that, to make it an event that was passed. Information was passed on from person to person without a great deal of publicity, presumably to keep it [inaudible] from the authorities.
SM (00:26:36):
So a lot of times when it happened, the police were at the sides then watching the students.
RS (00:26:42):
Well, I do not know for sure, but I have a feeling that the police were in with the students as well.
SM (00:26:48):
You are probably right because infiltration was very big in those days, particularly in groups like SDS. We all know about the book that came out in the 19(19)80s called Rads.
RS (00:27:05):
Yes.
SM (00:27:05):
Which is where the lab was blown up at the University of Wisconsin and one student died.
RS (00:27:10):
[inaudible].
SM (00:27:13):
Yeah. I do not... Could you give a little more information on the... I think that happened when you were there.
RS (00:27:19):
Well, actually it happened while I was a student, but it happened during the summer and I was not on campus when it happened.
SM (00:27:28):
Well, what was it all... Could you tell a little bit more about it? Because people have not read the book of Rads or... What was it? Who did it? Did anybody pay the price for the bombing of it? And who was the young man who died and what was the reaction of the campus, particularly when school started in the fall?
RS (00:27:47):
It happened at, I believe, 3:45 in the morning and was purposely designed so not to hurt anyone, and it was assumed that nobody would be in the Army Research Center at 3:45 in the morning. Four people were involved; three of which were punished, and one has never been caught.
SM (00:28:15):
Were they students?
RS (00:28:17):
I believe that... I should not answer that. I cannot answer that question. I believe to a [inaudible] for certain. I do not remember. But there were two brothers, Dwight and Carl Armstrong, and two other people named David Fine and Leo Bert. I believe Leo Burt has never been caught.
SM (00:28:40):
And the other three, did they serve time in jail or...
RS (00:28:45):
I know Carl Armstrong did. I believe his brother Dwight did, and I believe David Fine did as well, but I cannot be for sure about him.
SM (00:28:59):
Now. What was-
RS (00:29:00):
I know for certain Carl Armstrong.
SM (00:29:02):
What summer were-
RS (00:29:02):
Actually, let me interrupt you for one sec. They were actually from Madison, the brothers, which was quite a shock to the Madison community that some of their own could be involved in this. Many, many times activities were blamed on out-of-state agitators. Yet they were from the same town.
SM (00:29:31):
And they were students too then, correct? At Wisconsin? You are not sure.
RS (00:29:36):
I am not sure. They were older than me. I believe they may have been students before I got there.
SM (00:29:43):
When you came back in the fall, was that the number one topic of discussion?
RS (00:29:47):
It was. It was really stunning to see this huge building reduced... Well, damaged. I should not say reduced. Damaged substantially. And it was quite an eye-opener, again, for young people who had not seen anything like that before.
SM (00:30:10):
You went on to law school. Now, you mentioned early on in the interview that you kind of knew in high school you wanted to be a lawyer. Why?
RS (00:30:22):
I wanted to help people. Law is very complex. I thought I could get involved and make changes in society and in an individual's life in a meaningful way.
SM (00:30:42):
And so probably your undergraduate degree...
RS (00:30:47):
Political science.
SM (00:30:48):
Yeah. Political science was a good preparation for that.
RS (00:30:51):
It was. It was. Again, I got an excellent education at the University of Huntington.
SM (00:30:57):
That is a great school.
RS (00:31:02):
It was a fine school, and I also got a street education.
SM (00:31:08):
Did you join organizations?
RS (00:31:10):
Excuse me. Let me interrupt you for-
SM (00:31:11):
Yep.
RS (00:31:11):
For some of the students, parents gave them gas masks before they departed for campus for fall.
SM (00:31:19):
Oh my, God.
RS (00:31:19):
Do not believe that happens today. Parent giving their sons and daughters gas masks for the upcoming year at school.
SM (00:31:31):
I wonder how many parents said, "Do not get involved in any protests."
RS (00:31:36):
Well, not only do not get involved, but do not sign anything. Many of the parents will remember the Red Scare. Do not join any groups. Do not sign any petitions. Quite fearful of repercussions for political activity.
SM (00:31:54):
Wow. So your plan was to become a lawyer. What did you specialize in law?
RS (00:32:05):
I did what was called tort work involving personal injury worker's compensation, and occasional medical malpractice. But one thing I am very proud of is representing over 600 Vietnam veterans for free on the Agent Orange class action litigation.
SM (00:32:25):
Yeah. I am going to go... I have a question on that. I am going to go... That was later in my interview, but that is very important. I have got a question here regarding this. You represented vets linked to Agent Orange. How did that happen?
RS (00:32:40):
Can you be a little more specific?
SM (00:32:44):
Yeah. Did one vet come to you and say, "We need help for the 600," or...
RS (00:32:53):
That is exactly what happened. One vet came to my office and said he had been in Vietnam and had a terrible, terrible rash on his skin, and he did not know what it was from. I said... That is bad grammar. What had caused it? I started dealing with a nurse at the Veteran Administration Hospital on the west side of Chicago where they had been seeing a number of people for these unexplained problems. Her name was Maude DeVictor, and when she saw that I was involved and not interested in obtaining anything for my services, but trying to help, she started referring a few clients to me. And I was one of the first 50 people in the law... I should say, attorneys in the country involved.
SM (00:33:50):
Wow. It is a big issue. Still is.
RS (00:33:53):
Well, this resulted in me receiving a death threat and having my telephone tapped.
SM (00:34:00):
Really?
RS (00:34:01):
Yes.
SM (00:34:03):
That is after you were working very hard on behalf of the 600?
RS (00:34:07):
Yes. I mean, I worked in conjunction with attorneys both locally in Chicago and across the nation, meeting with epidemiologists and other experts in diseases regarding the cause. And one of the attorneys I worked with in Chicago was a very establishment lawyer, but he was so convinced that his phone was being tapped, that he was tape-recording all of his own conversations.
SM (00:34:40):
And you think you were being tapped?
RS (00:34:44):
I heard the clicks on my line repeatedly.
SM (00:34:49):
Who do you think was tapping you?
RS (00:34:52):
I do not want to speculate.
SM (00:34:54):
Okay. Who would be against helping veterans though? Unless it is the government. Anyways.
RS (00:35:02):
Well, the chemical company-
SM (00:35:03):
... Anyways.
RS (00:35:03):
Well, the chemical companies were making a great deal of money from this product.
SM (00:35:06):
Right.
RS (00:35:09):
The lawsuit included Dow Monsanto, Diamond Shamrock and a number of other chemical companies in addition to the US government.
SM (00:35:22):
What was the final result of the lawsuit?
RS (00:35:28):
In 1984, the class action case was settled. I would have to check, but I believe the settlement result was $180 million. I believe there were changes subsequently, but the time I was involved, the maximum they were paying was approximately $14,000 to the survivor of someone who had died as a result of the Agent Orange exposure due to cancer, leukemia or other problems. People with lesser problems got less.
SM (00:36:07):
So in the end it was more than just the 600. It was people all over-
RS (00:36:15):
We represented approximately a little over 600, but there were many, many thousands of claims.
SM (00:36:22):
And that is still an issue today.
RS (00:36:26):
I know it is. I know it is.
SM (00:36:26):
I am met a vet down on Veterans Day at The Wall who was having a hard time. He has got Agent Orange issues and having a hard time getting his medical coverage and so forth. For those young people who will be reading this and certainly students that were not alive during the Vietnam War, can you explain what Agent Orange is and what it did in Vietnam?
RS (00:36:54):
It is a chemical defoliant. The purpose of spraying Agent Orange was to kill all the vegetation, so that the enemy could not hide. It was sprayed in areas along the rivers, basically the forest to just kill everything, to prevent the North Vietnamese from having cover, and it caused horrible defects, birth defects, miscarriages, and apparently is one of the most toxic. Agent Orange was contaminated during its manufacture by a... I have to start again. I am not phrasing this right. The production of Agent Orange caused a byproduct called dioxin. Dioxin is one of the most toxic substances known to man. A miniscule amount can cause terrible problems and the subsequent discovery during the case, showed that the government had known about it since 1957, that it caused terrible problems.
SM (00:38:15):
And so these Vietnam vets were coming back after serving their nation, and they were having a hard time getting medical coverage for this issue.
RS (00:38:25):
Yes.
SM (00:38:26):
And it kept going year after year after year. I know politicians got involved in it. In fact, I just talked to Bob Edgar last week, the former congressman. He went back to Vietnam, I think it was about a month ago, and Agent Orange is still an issue in Vietnam because so many of the population was affected by it.
RS (00:38:48):
Well, also, in addition to spraying it, what would happen is it would accumulate in ponds, and people would drink water from these ponds in incredibly high concentrations of the chemical.
SM (00:39:02):
Yeah, it is terrible. What did that say about... Vietnam Vets obviously are not the anti-war protestors. Some came back, became veterans against the war, John Kerry and that group, Bobby Muller. But what did that say to those veterans who came back to America after serving their nation? What do you think the lesson that comes out of this?
RS (00:39:31):
Some of them that I represent, were very-very bitter. Basically, many of them considered themselves chemical cannon fodder. And that they were knowingly exposed to something that eventually caused many of them to die.
SM (00:39:56):
Wow. Yeah, that is a major issue, and that is certainly an issue that was known by anyone alive at that time. I do not know whether you were for or against the war or anything in between, Agent Orange was in the news constantly. When you were at Northwestern, you had mentioned something just on your email to me. You said when you went there to law school, you say it could not have been more different on that campus than it was at Madison. Explain the difference between Northwestern Law School and clinical science undergrad at Wisconsin?
RS (00:40:41):
I was barely familiar with Northwestern Law School because my father went to law school there. In fact, when I was a little kid, I was dressed up wearing a tee-shirt that said Northwestern Law when I was a toddler. I knew about the place. I got a very good legal education, very conservative corporate oriented school. The old saying when I was there was that, you go to the University of Chicago to become a judge... Excuse me, I should say law school, University of Chicago Law School to become a judge. And they go to the Northwestern Law School to become a corporation council. So again, I got a very good legal education, but politics were not relevant to learning the law and their view. In fact, my corporation's professor... I do not know if I should give his name because I do not want to-
SM (00:41:45):
No, you do not need to do that.
RS (00:41:47):
But said in a discussion of corporate law, morality and ethics were irrelevant.
SM (00:41:57):
Well, I think Berkeley students in (19)64, (19)65 realize that.
RS (00:42:07):
We were there to learn the law, and in that way, it was an old school Socratic method type of education. If you are familiar with the movie, The Paper Chase.
SM (00:42:18):
Yes, I am.
RS (00:42:21):
It was very much like that.
SM (00:42:23):
Wow. I forget the lawyer that was in that, the older actor. Oh, he was good.
RS (00:42:28):
Named...
SM (00:42:30):
I see him now.
RS (00:42:32):
John Houseman.
SM (00:42:33):
Yeah. What a great professor. And I think, was it Ryan O'Neill?
RS (00:42:36):
Timothy Bottoms.
SM (00:42:38):
Oh, that is right. Timothy Bottoms. You got it.
RS (00:42:41):
And it was based on a corporation... Let me see, corporation's law professor at Harvard.
SM (00:42:52):
Yeah. I had here because you were at such an activist university as an undergrad and you went to Northwestern. I am sure there probably was some activism there for the undergrads, but the question I was... Basically was three things here. Bear in mind as I mention these, was the difference when you made that statement because of the campus and the type of students that were there. Number two, the things were beginning to wind down, and the anti-war movement, particularly around that time of (19)72, (19)73, (19)74 and people were tired of the acrimony. And third, that law school, the people were career oriented. They wanted to get a good job, money and a career, and they were not into social issues anymore, because they were going for a career. Did all those play a part in the differences of the two campuses?
RS (00:43:47):
To say that they were career oriented would be an understatement. Many people went to the law school, and again, I cannot speak for everyone because I did not speak to everyone in my class. By and large, many students knew that once they graduated, after having done well in law school, they were looking for jobs at the large corporate oriented law firms in Chicago and elsewhere.
SM (00:44:24):
Were there-
RS (00:44:24):
Which paid very well.
SM (00:44:26):
Were there many lawyers that said, I am going to go back and work around a university to help students, and not make that much money?
RS (00:44:34):
Not that I recall.
SM (00:44:36):
I know that was a big thing at that time for law students. They can go back and represent college students. Did you sense that when you were at Northwestern, that things were winding down in the anti-war movement?
RS (00:44:52):
Well, they were. The war was winding down. We had missed the draft. Miss is the wrong word, had not been drafted and self-interest seemed like it was the rule of the day.
SM (00:45:15):
In those years, (19)75 to (19)81, you practiced law, that was in Chicago, correct?
RS (00:45:24):
Yes.
SM (00:45:24):
Now, this is a fulfillment question. Did you feel more fulfilled during those six years as a lawyer, or were you more fulfilled as a college student during your four years at the University of Wisconsin?
RS (00:45:38):
No, I would call college more a formative experience than a fulfilling experience. It was sort of like making a piece of sculpture where at first you have to put the body and the arms on, before you can make the fingernails look the way they are supposed to.
SM (00:45:56):
Right.
RS (00:46:00):
It was more formative. I was oriented toward being an attorney, but I was not quite sure what area of law I wanted to do. I just knew that it was a vehicle for helping people who did not know the law, understand it and wind their way through the system with as little trouble as possible.
SM (00:46:29):
Yeah. I put down here because I concentrate a little bit. We are going to get into memorabilia in a few minutes, but I think your college years are fascinating and that your career's fascinating, just from what you have given on your brief email.
RS (00:46:47):
Off the record, you were asking me to pull up memories that are 40 years old. My short-term memories is not what it used-used to be, but neither is the rest of me.
SM (00:46:55):
Yeah, but I can tell from the way you are responding though, that these memories are important to you.
RS (00:47:03):
They were exciting... I should not say. They were incredibly exciting, interesting, vibrant times.
SM (00:47:10):
Yes.
RS (00:47:11):
You woke up in the morning never knowing what that day would bring. There was an excitement and electricity in the air, that I just do not see happening anymore.
SM (00:47:23):
Yeah.
RS (00:47:23):
It was an incredible time to be alive.
SM (00:47:28):
Yeah. I can remember taking buses from school. Just getting on a Greyhound bus and if you were a young person, you had this... Not that you were arrogant, but you felt like what a world we were living in. It was just a feeling, there were some bad things happening in the world, but there seemed to be some sort of unity between the youth at that time.
RS (00:47:50):
Well, you are absolutely right. There were so many idealistic, risk taking young people, who believed that anything was possible.
SM (00:48:02):
Right.
RS (00:48:04):
They sought to transform society with emotional and physical commitment, and boundless, often playful energy. Our distrust of the establishment, also known as the Man, was prevalent. Also with varying degrees of success, young people tried to manifest their own divinity. Consciousness raising was taken seriously as a truth seeking path towards personal enlightenment and positive social change.
SM (00:48:38):
Did you read any of those books of that era when you were a college student? Some of the best books ever came out in that-
RS (00:48:47):
[inaudible] Carlos Castañeda?
SM (00:48:48):
Yeah.
RS (00:48:49):
Of course.
SM (00:48:51):
Yeah. Of course, I know that Saul Alinsky was a big person because I think he is out of Chicago.
RS (00:48:57):
He was-
SM (00:48:59):
Was it Rules for Radicals?
RS (00:49:01):
He was a community organizer. I actually have a signed copy, first edition of his book, Rules for Radicals.
SM (00:49:08):
Keep it, it is valuable and pass it on.
RS (00:49:12):
I intend to.
SM (00:49:13):
It is an unbelievable thing because I know Hillary Clinton was influenced by him when she was a student. And then of course the other books were... I do not know if you read The Greening of America by Charles Reich?
RS (00:49:28):
I have a copy, which I had signed by him about 10 years ago.
SM (00:49:33):
Wow. I am trying to interview him. In February he is coming back to teach a course at Yale Law School. He is kind of hibernated, he lives in San Francisco.
RS (00:49:40):
Yes.
SM (00:49:43):
But I do not even know how to get ahold of-
RS (00:49:43):
He lives in Mill Valley. I am not certain. He may have... I should not say that. I do not know. He is in the Bay Area.
SM (00:49:51):
Yeah.
RS (00:49:52):
If I may, one of the most significant developments of the 1960, was really greatly increased involvement of young people in the political process. People got involved. They were passionate. If you have ever seen any video or film from the protests, people put their bodies on the line.
SM (00:50:21):
Right.
RS (00:50:22):
And many were beaten. They risked being tear gassed for what they believed. I do not really see that happening today. It is as if young... To me, and perhaps it is aging that says this, but there is not the passion. They are almost defeated before they begin, many of them. It seems like an end to, why fight the system we cannot win. Well, that is self-defeating. You will never know if you can win or not if you do not step the ring.
SM (00:50:57):
That is what Teddy Roosevelt said, " Got to get into the arena of life."
RS (00:51:06):
I did not know. Truly, I did not know, but many of them seem defeated and they have been... As George Carlin said, many of them been bought off by gizmo's and gadgets.
SM (00:51:18):
And of course George knew that those... What is it? The eight words he could not say or something like that...
RS (00:51:23):
Seven.
SM (00:51:25):
Seven. He said them anyways.
RS (00:51:28):
He did them at the Milwaukee Summerfest concert, I believe 1970, he was arrested for them.
SM (00:51:33):
Wow.
RS (00:51:34):
But it was a really exciting, electric time to be alive. There were so many changes taking place in society. If you want, I can give you a few obvious ones.
SM (00:51:49):
Yeah, go ahead.
RS (00:51:51):
I mean like a revolution in fashion, highlighted bright colors and tie-dyed clothes, long hair on men, replaced short cropped haircuts. New developments in graphic art, including the use of nonlinear writing and flowing colors, marked a pretty stark departure from the past. That was most evident in posters produced to promote rock events, but not exclusive. Television seemed like a fairly conservative medium and a skewed controversy. They started showing rock and roll performers and highlighting drama with frank and sometimes explicit adult themes. The sudden and prolific emergence of underground newspapers and comics.
SM (00:52:47):
Yes.
RS (00:52:47):
Disseminate liberal ideas and breakthroughs in art to an interested, sympathetic audience, that could be counted in millions. Again, this is long before email, cell phones, the widespread use of fax machines. I do not know if you want to write this, but I have many leaflets, these were vehicles of communication. People would hand out handbills.
SM (00:53:18):
Right.
RS (00:53:21):
And actually little notes, demonstration 8:00 PM, Library Mall, which I know I said, but this is how people communicated often. Underground newspapers and underground comics as well, you can include them. There has always been a bohemian or nonconformist or countercultural movement in America, which is parallel of mainstream society, consisting of free thinkers who were dissatisfied with conventional values, and people who sought emotional and spiritual satisfaction in ways other than the acquisition of wealth and power. And conformity, for do not sake, was seen as a compensation for a lack of ability, or I will say courage, for yourself.
SM (00:54:15):
Yeah. That is beautiful.
RS (00:54:19):
I mean, this is how I feel, and it was a rebellion against conformity, but it became more open as opposed to people in the (19)50s. The Beats who I admire very much, were really well mocked and I want to say pigeonholed. Could say the water overflowed the cup and it was impossible for the establishment to keep it inside.
SM (00:54:48):
Hold on a second. [inaudible].
RS (00:54:57):
A year or two ago, when he received a lifetime achievement award for his writing, was held in the [inaudible] public library.
SM (00:55:03):
Is that the same ceremony that Paul was involved in?
RS (00:55:06):
No, that was in Oakland. It was the Pen. P-E-N.
SM (00:55:10):
Okay.
RS (00:55:11):
Oakland.
SM (00:55:12):
Yep.
RS (00:55:17):
But I believe this might have been Pen San Francisco, but I would go to every reading I could have, and he has not done one in a long, long time.
SM (00:55:24):
Yeah. Someone said his health is not very good.
RS (00:55:28):
It is unfortunate to hear, because he was a really active guy. He would swim at the YMCA regularly, drive his bike when he was in his (19)70s, through traffic in San Francisco.
SM (00:55:40):
Yeah, I got some of his books. I got another question here. Are you finished with that information or...
RS (00:55:54):
But I am here for whatever you want to...
SM (00:55:56):
Yeah. This period, (19)68 to (19)72, you already talked about your senior year when you graduated. And you talked about the 1968 in Chicago and MLK, but some other major events that took place during those four years away from your college, was Woodstock in (19)69 and certainly... I got a list of them here. I will just list these and then you can comment on any of them as a whole. You had the Kent State, Jackson State of 1970. You had the big protest in Washington in 1969, known as the Moratorium. In 1969, you had the first openly major protest, Stonewall for gay and lesbian people in New York City. Then you had Altamont that some people say was really the end of the (19)60s, because you had Woodstock, then you had Altamont. Then you had Attica at the prisons. You had the American Indian Movement from (19)67 to (19)71, that began with Alcatraz and ended at Wounded Knee. You had the Black Panther trials, particularly the one in Yale or in New Haven. Earth Day in 1970. You had the Angela Davis situation with George Jackson over at San Quentin. [inaudible]. Then you had the SDS going to the Weathermen. Then you had Johnson withdrawing from the race in (19)68, and then you had Agnew-
RS (00:57:31):
That was quite a stunner. That was quite a stunner.
SM (00:57:32):
And then you had Agnew going all over these campuses, yelling about hobnobs and all the other things, attacking young people and-
RS (00:57:45):
[inaudible].
SM (00:57:45):
Yeah. And then of course Nixon was elected in (19)68 and (19)72, and then we had The Pentagon papers with Ellsberg, and then the evolution of Vietnam Veterans Against the War in (19)71. Then of course you had the hippies and the Yippies and so forth. All these things happened during that (19)68 to (19)72 period.
RS (00:58:02):
Yes.
SM (00:58:04):
You were obviously aware of all of them. Any of these stand out, that...
RS (00:58:10):
Well, again, being in Madison, Madison was isolated in the sense that it was not anywhere near another metropolitan area. The closest one was Milwaukee, which is approximately 90 miles away. And while being a wonderful place, we did not really interact much... How should we say? People came to campus, spoke or whatever, and left. It was not as if they were there permanently, as if you were in a large city like New York or Chicago. I was aware of what was going on through reading the newspaper, television and radio, but I did not go to any of those specific events you mentioned.
SM (00:59:01):
Were students... Did you see the-
RS (00:59:02):
These were rock festivals in the Madison area and Milwaukee.
SM (00:59:13):
Yeah. Did you see on the campus though, the evolution of the Black Panthers, from the nonviolent protest ala Dr. King, and then you saw the SDS, and then they went to become the Weatherman. What were your thoughts on those? This was a big transition.
RS (00:59:35):
It was. I had mixed emotions. On the one hand, I felt frustrated that no matter what we did, did not seem to make any difference. But on the other hand, I felt that some of the other activities such as the bombings, could possibly be counterproductive and not change the minds of the people whose minds we wanted to change.
SM (01:00:02):
The contrast, again, when you see Altamont, then you compare it to Woodstock. What seemed to be (19)69, and then Altamont was (19)70, was the exact opposite. Then you had the-
RS (01:00:19):
There were too many factors involved with that to make a real comparison. Woodstock sort of happened.
SM (01:00:26):
Right.
RS (01:00:28):
And it is wonderful that it did. Altamont seemed like a convergence of just the bad things.
SM (01:00:37):
Yeah. It was tragic up there with the motorcycle gang that beat up that guy, and of course... [inaudible] and then some of the atrocities in Vietnam are coming out at this time, revealed to the American public and...
RS (01:00:54):
Quite stunning to a suburban kid.
SM (01:00:56):
Yeah. And then of course, the American Indian movie went from Alcatraz, which was a good thing, to Wounded Knee, which was bad.
RS (01:01:06):
Yeah.
SM (01:01:06):
So you have a lot of these interesting contrasts. I did not know if they affected the students there or not. To go over the books again, we mentioned the Greening of America with Charles Reich, but there was another one. There were several others too. There was the Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak.
RS (01:01:28):
Yeah, I met him again about a year ago, this year actually. Very bright, interesting person. I believe his new book is The Making of the Elder Culture.
SM (01:01:39):
Yeah, I wanted to interview him, but he says he is retired and he has got a health issue.
RS (01:01:48):
He do not look the healthiest, but when he took the book reading, he was in Berkeley. He was very good.
SM (01:01:56):
Good. Yeah, and then the other ones were of course, Soul on Ice with Eldridge Cleaver and Harry Edwards Black Students. And you had The Other America by Michael Harrington and...
RS (01:02:08):
Yes.
SM (01:02:08):
And then there was the Erik Erikson's books on the psychology, I believe of the American youth at that time, and I know Kenneth Keniston also wrote a book, Youth and Radical. So, there is a lot of really good books out that I did not know if they were popular on college campuses.
RS (01:02:27):
They were. People like Abbie Hoffman's book Steal This Book. Gary Ruben's [inaudible] of course, The Realist by Paul Krassner, it was great. But a lot of the information we got was from underground newspapers. They seemed more willing to print what we thought was the truth.
SM (01:02:52):
What were the underground papers you liked?
RS (01:02:52):
There was one in Madison called Takeover, which was good. Chicago Seed was very good. I did not really see much of the Berkeley Barb being where I was, but I would heard of it.
SM (01:03:06):
Right.
RS (01:03:07):
And these which other I knew, was very significant. Occasionally I saw a copy.
SM (01:03:12):
Did you ever read Ramparts?
RS (01:03:13):
Sure.
SM (01:03:14):
Yeah.
RS (01:03:14):
Sure. Excellent investigative journalism at the time.
SM (01:03:21):
Yeah. Peter Richardson's got a whole book out on it right now.
RS (01:03:23):
He did a reading here. I want to go off the record with this but Warren Hinckle became an alcoholic. It was just not a [inaudible] at a bar and he was just... To use a cliche, a shell of his former self.
SM (01:03:40):
Yeah. I tried to get him to be interviewed and Peter told me the only way you can find him is in a bar.
RS (01:03:45):
Yes. I do not know, and I should not be saying this, and I ask you not to repeat it, but I think he and Paul Krassner must have had a falling out because he and Paul... And I cannot remember why exactly, but we walked into some place where Warren Hinckle was there and did not even say a hello to each other.
SM (01:04:03):
Well-
RS (01:04:04):
Unusual for people who shared many of the same values.
SM (01:04:08):
Yeah, it is not Paul. I think a lot of people realize he is a drunk. I am not going to say that, but I do not even know him.
RS (01:04:19):
Peter.
SM (01:04:20):
Peter said the only way he got the interview, and he was talking about it because Hinckle was brilliant. What a writer.
RS (01:04:28):
Yeah.
SM (01:04:28):
But he always had a problem with alcohol and-
RS (01:04:32):
Oh, I should add Rolling Stone to my group.
SM (01:04:34):
Yeah, he probably will die an alcoholic.
RS (01:04:40):
I would not be surprised. The way I saw him drinking, I am surprised he is alive now, but I do not want to pass judgment.
SM (01:04:45):
Yeah.
RS (01:04:46):
It is unfortunate. Who knows the pressures that he was under from the government or God knows who else.
SM (01:04:55):
Right. Yeah. Of the personalities of the (19)60s and (19)70s, who were the ones that you feel had the greatest impact on the generation, or particularly had the greatest impact on you who were a part of the generation?
RS (01:05:06):
I would have to start with Ken Kesey. Yeah, I remember a quote of his, and I may be butchering it, but I believe it was, "Most people are destined to leave their lives never having moved off of dead center?
SM (01:05:23):
Wow. That is a beautiful quote.
RS (01:05:25):
I did not want to be one of those people.
SM (01:05:27):
Very good.
RS (01:05:29):
I did not want to be one of those people. What he did in terms of promulgating light shows that... I do not want to say promulgate, that is the wrong word. Of using light shows, of course, the Grateful Dead is his house band.
SM (01:05:48):
Right.
RS (01:05:48):
And Acid in the Punch Bowl when it was still legal, probably after it was illegal. Seemed like they were the counter culturals, I will say funsters. Of course their name was Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters.
SM (01:06:13):
Yeah, it is Wavy Gravy, I believe.
RS (01:06:13):
Yes.
SM (01:06:13):
And Paul was in their group?
RS (01:06:16):
Yes. As opposed to Timothy Leary, who as you know, begin doing scientific research, the [inaudible] and other hallucinogens. I remember reading about how bummed out Kesey and the Pranksters were going to Millbrook in upstate New York, and they were taking everything so seriously at Millbrook, which is not the wrong thing to do, but it was a very different approach from the West Coast.
SM (01:06:46):
Were there any other personalities besides Ken Kesey, that you think really shaped the generation, and then you as a part of the generation?
RS (01:06:57):
I liked Paul Krassner's writing very much.
SM (01:07:02):
I got a couple of his books, but I got to get more.
RS (01:07:04):
And The Realist was a wonderful publication. Of course, you never know what was true and what was not.
SM (01:07:16):
Right. His sense of humor is unbelievable though.
RS (01:07:19):
Oh, he is a brilliant, brilliant man. He told a story about writing an article for the AARP Magazine, and when he got it, his article was not... They told him they would publish it and it was not in there. They called him and they told, they published three different magazines, one for people over 50, one for people over 60, one for people over 70. He was surprised to find out he was too old to read his own writing.
SM (01:07:47):
He said they had a-
RS (01:07:51):
He said that many times. Yeah, he said that-
SM (01:08:00):
I am laughing just... And I saw it yesterday on YouTube.
RS (01:08:04):
Still I love him.
SM (01:08:06):
He is a great guy. I got to meet him. I am going to come to LA next time instead of San Francisco.
RS (01:08:10):
He is in the Palm Springs area.
SM (01:08:13):
Yeah. How far is that from LA?
RS (01:08:17):
You got me. I cannot answer that. I know it... I do not know.
SM (01:08:21):
I know Cleve Jones moved there too. The AIDS quilt guy.
RS (01:08:27):
Okay.
SM (01:08:30):
He left San Francisco. He got tired of the overcast skies, so he is not there in San Francisco anymore. A lot of people are moving down there, according to what I am hearing. What do you think were the most impactful movies in that time that you were in college, that you remember, that you think were very influential on...
RS (01:08:53):
Haskell Wexler's Medium Cool, very interesting, being from Chicago. It is a cinéma verité film, a great deal of which was filmed at the Democratic Convention Street protests, it was good. Arthur Penn's Bonnie and Clyde was a new type of movie. Maybe I should not say new type. It was influential. Joe with Peter Boyle was a frightening movie.
SM (01:09:22):
I remember that. Yeah.
RS (01:09:26):
Joe was a very, I will say a conservative person, who at the end ended up shooting his own daughter. He was goaded into... Excuse me, I should not say that. Let me back up. I made a mistake about the content of the movie. Should I just say it was a very influential movie about extremely conservative…
SM (01:09:54):
Yeah.
RS (01:09:55):
I do not want to use the word redneck, because he was a northerner.
SM (01:10:00):
Well, only about 150 million are going to read this, so it is...
SM (01:10:02):
Well, only about 150 million are going to read this, so it is...
RS (01:10:02):
Well, how about if I just say he was a very influential... It was a very influential...
SM (01:10:11):
Yeah, that is fine. Any others? I always want to know-
RS (01:10:17):
Well, Woodstock of course.
SM (01:10:18):
Oh, yeah.
RS (01:10:19):
Groundbreaking movie in terms of its techniques and portrayal so many phenomenal rock bands. Similarly, Monterey Pop.
SM (01:10:28):
Hmm.
RS (01:10:32):
And Give Me Shelter by the Maysles brothers of Altamont was a-
SM (01:10:37):
Yeah.
RS (01:10:37):
... great movie. And of course, Easy Rider.
SM (01:10:40):
Yes.
RS (01:10:41):
Which was frightening, which I saw in LA in 1969 and walked out of there with friends shaking.
SM (01:10:43):
Yeah, I did not expect that ending.
RS (01:10:53):
I do not think anybody.
SM (01:10:54):
I often wondered when his friend got shot away, why he kept going.
RS (01:11:01):
Well, he turned around and then he got to... there was a prequel, it was showing the future before it happened.
SM (01:11:09):
Oh, okay.
RS (01:11:10):
And he turned, Dennis Hopper, turned around and got shot too.
SM (01:11:14):
Yeah.
RS (01:11:16):
But that was a frightening movie.
SM (01:11:20):
How about the Graduate? Was that the-
RS (01:11:21):
Very interesting film. Saw it and was still in high school.
SM (01:11:30):
And then, the Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice was supposed to be about the sexual mores of the era.
RS (01:11:36):
Yes. Sexual mores at the [inaudible] in at the end.
SM (01:11:40):
Right. And I think there was another movie that seemed to be the Zabriski Point.
RS (01:11:47):
God, you have a good number. Yes, I think there was a Strawberry Statement as well.
SM (01:11:52):
Yeah. That came later. And then there was the Sterile Cuckoo, Liza Minnelli.
RS (01:12:03):
I should remember that. But I do not, all I remember was Liza Minnelli's name.
SM (01:12:10):
Yeah, and Wendell Burton-
RS (01:12:13):
Okay. Go ahead.
SM (01:12:13):
Yeah. Liza Minnelli and Wendell Burton. And then of course Shaft.
RS (01:12:15):
Yes.
SM (01:12:16):
Yeah.
RS (01:12:16):
Interesting.
SM (01:12:22):
Was there anything on TV that you think will really... Well, you mentioned about the black and white TV and the Boomers were all in junior, or excuse me, in elementary school during that period. Or, just when I think of the (19)50s, I think of Howdy Doody, I think of Captain Kangaroo, I think of Dave Garaway Peace. I think of Hopalong Cassidy Lone Ranger.
RS (01:12:52):
How about Pinky Lee?
SM (01:12:53):
Yeah, Pinky Lee.
RS (01:12:54):
Pee-wee Herman's... what is the word? Influence.
SM (01:13:02):
Yeah. Rootie Kazootie. But there was also Walt Disney and all those shows, the Mouseketeers, Westerns galore. Very few African-Americans-
RS (01:13:14):
Start with the political things. Like that was the week that was, I thought a very interesting TV show.
SM (01:13:20):
Right.
RS (01:13:20):
Taken from the British show doing politics. Of course Laugh-In.
SM (01:13:26):
That was the (19)60s though.
RS (01:13:28):
Yeah. The Smothers Brothers, of course.
SM (01:13:30):
Yep.
RS (01:13:30):
Were very influential. What they went through just to put on the people like Peter Seeger was unbelievable.
SM (01:13:37):
Uh-huh, yep.
RS (01:13:42):
I did not watch much TV, but there was, God, I am trying to... Ted Paulson Show, very good.
SM (01:13:45):
I know in the (19)50s, Edward R. Murrow was seen to be a pretty honest guy.
RS (01:13:58):
Was.
SM (01:13:58):
Yeah.
RS (01:13:58):
Then Walter Cronkite took up the mantle.
SM (01:14:01):
Right.
RS (01:14:02):
When he said the war in Vietnam was unwinnable, I think that was a little turning point of the country.
SM (01:14:07):
Mm-hmm.
RS (01:14:09):
But there were so many written influence, such as underground comics, Robert Crumb, like Zapp! Comics written for kids.
SM (01:14:21):
Oh yeah, and that made into a movie in 1971.
RS (01:14:24):
Yeah, which was not that wonderful, I saw it of course.
SM (01:14:24):
Right.
RS (01:14:32):
But there were, I mean, so many influential publications, so many underground newspapers, magazine comics, countercultural publication, it seemed like eventually some of it eventually seeped into mainstream society.
SM (01:14:53):
One question I have been asking everyone is today you have members of the right, or conservatives, attacking the (19)60s generation, or the boomers that were young in the (19)60s and (19)70s as the reasons why we have all the problems in our society today, or most of them, because of the drug culture, the lack of sexual mores, i.e. the sexual revolution, the extreme divorce rate, breakup of the American family as a unit, the lack of going... families not going to church anymore. Went from going to church or synagogue to kind of an inner spirituality, and we saw that through the Beatles and the Maharishi and that group, the Moonies. Then we have, again, they attack the generation for the welfare state, the handout society, the sense of, "Well, I got to have it now." Type of an attitude, extensive consumerism where, "I got to have everything. I got to own everything. And, "If I cannot have it, I got to have it now." Kind of mentality. And that is why we have the financial problems we are in today. So, there is a lot of things. The other thing is too, that we have come into a society where it is all about rights. Everybody wants their rights, but lost them are irresponsible. Your thoughts of those attacks by people on the right?
RS (01:16:46):
I think back to a Bob Dylan line of, "Do not criticize what you cannot understand."
SM (01:16:51):
Well, that is good.
RS (01:16:54):
That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the goals of what we tried to do. Making a more equitable and egalitarian society I think has been and always will be seen as a threat to the establishment. I mean, there have always been the proletariat, bourgeoisie, but in the electronic age, such as we have, it seems like things are happening so much faster. The concentration of wealth, I think was one of the major problems. It was not enough to make a lot, you had to make more, and the other person had to have less. I think it is up to that, I think it is based on fear by and large, that there is not enough to go around so, "I am going to get mine and good luck with yours."
SM (01:17:43):
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is interesting because I know Randy Shaw, who you may know in San Francisco, the Tenderloin, and he also graduated from Berkeley. He wrote a book called The Activist Handbook. And in that handbook, he talks about the definition of what an activist is. And it is if you ever say the term, "What is in it for me?" You are not an activist because it is supposed to be, "What is in it for we?" And so that was interesting what you just said there, because there was some kind of a linkage. And how important-
RS (01:18:30):
I am a little punchy, so forgive me and please do not let me take things off the record, but it was about Plato being forced by the establishment to drink hemlock for telling the truth.
SM (01:18:44):
Mm-hmm, that is right.
RS (01:18:48):
You can include that. I am a little punchy, I was going to say Socrates...
SM (01:18:51):
Yeah, but there is true to that. Yeah, the sort of [inaudible]-
RS (01:18:54):
Because he taught young people what he believed was the truth. He ended up with a phony trial and being forced to drink hemlock, I think is nothing though.
SM (01:19:03):
I know there is a book up, but I.F. Stone wrote called The Trial of Socrates.
RS (01:19:09):
Stone wrote, yeah. Yes, yes. This is nothing new.
SM (01:19:13):
Yep. Now you mentioned that again. How important were The Beats in shaping the generation, in your opinion, in shaping certainly the new left?
RS (01:19:27):
Well, the older get, I guess the more I see their influence. I mean, so in America, there has always been a Bohemian side, but it seems like after World War II things seem to coalesce in certain areas, like Greenwich Village in New York City, North Beach area in San Francisco. Returning GIs from the war. Jazz musicians, liberal writers, they seemed to start gathering in certain places. Maybe they were always there, and I just did not know about it. But for example, in the early (19)50s, Lawrence Ferlinghetti opened up City Life Bookstore in San Francisco. He originally intended it only to be a store that sold only paperback books, but it became a magnet for disaffected writers and artists. Of course, he was put on trial for publishing Howl in 1956 an obscenity trial where the mores at the time said the police could decide what was obscene or not. If police did not like what you did, you did not do it.
SM (01:20:46):
Right.
RS (01:20:46):
Lenny Bruce is a good example.
SM (01:20:50):
And do you think that even that historic book that Kerouac wrote On the Road, it is symbolic of freedom, sense of-
RS (01:21:01):
Absolutely, it was adventures and observations of his encounters with America while being on the road.
SM (01:21:07):
And he is not being controlled by a boss, or by... he is just free.
RS (01:21:13):
Well, for me, it is a landmark of Pete writing was Ellen Ginsburg's Howl, you know about the dehumanization and degradation of the individual by the all-consuming corporate monolith. You know, you asked me about movies, Network was another one, which is-
SM (01:21:34):
Oh, yes.
RS (01:21:34):
... very, very good.
SM (01:21:37):
Go out to that window and say, "I am not going to take it anymore."
RS (01:21:41):
Yes. But also Ed Beatty as, maybe the CEO or president of a large corporation. The world is business, and it is really sad that people see the world as a business.
SM (01:21:58):
Another movie that you brought up I just thought of is Deliverance.
RS (01:22:04):
Yes and no. I mean, that was a...
SM (01:22:04):
He was in that too.
RS (01:22:11):
Yes, he was. Oh, you brought him up. Yes.
SM (01:22:13):
Yep.
RS (01:22:14):
I do not know that that is relevant politically.
SM (01:22:16):
Right.
RS (01:22:20):
It was culture, culture clash. But Howl...
SM (01:22:24):
Yeah.
RS (01:22:24):
The thing with the... and with Network, forgive me, Peter Fitz said, "It was not America that was finished, it was the individual that was finished." Afraid things are going in that direction. It seemed as though in the (19)60s we could be one step ahead of the man. Right now, it seems with all the high tech equipment and other means of control, they are one step ahead of us.
SM (01:22:56):
In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? When did it end, and what was the watershed moment?
RS (01:23:03):
I think it really began, if you want to speak about the (19)60s and not what led up to them, such as The Beats. I would say Ken Kesey, the epitaph, the Merry Pranksters and Grateful Dead, whom I like very, very much, playing long improvisational music. But Kesey was a very, very bright man exposing the world. The Magical Mystery Tour about the Beatles, as you know, was really a copy of what Kesey did.
SM (01:23:43):
When did it end?
RS (01:23:46):
Probably as the war wound down, the draft was abolished, it was became more self-interested, and less society... this is a bad phrasing, society interested.
SM (01:24:01):
Was there a watershed moment?
RS (01:24:07):
Possibly the reelection of Nixon, that area, that time, early (19)70s, after Jimmy Hendrix had died, Janice Joplin had died, Jim Morrison had died. Many political people, Fred Hampton had been assassinated in Chicago. It seemed to start losing its steam.
SM (01:24:38):
The generation gap. Did you have a generation gap of your parents, especially after you went off to college?
RS (01:24:46):
Yes and no. My father always said it was more important what was in my head then what was on it. And I believe that is true, we are hung up on the looks of rebellion rather than the ideas of rebellion.
SM (01:25:05):
Excellent. Yeah. There is no question that the generation gap was an issue between World War II generation and the boomers. Do you remember that Life magazine cover that had the boy on the cover that... wearing his blue glasses or whatever and the father's pointing a finger at him on one side of the glasses?
RS (01:25:27):
Yeah, I do.
SM (01:25:28):
And the son's pointing on the other. I had that magazine, it was pretty serious for many.
RS (01:25:35):
Well, I remember a quote that Ronald Reagan said while he was governor of California during protests at the University of California in Berkeley, "That if there is going to be a blood bath let us start now." He talked about killing people's own children.
SM (01:25:54):
Yeah, it is... And he came to power on two issues, this law and order on college campuses to end the student protestors from breaking up colleges, and secondly, to end the welfare state. And it is interesting because Watts took place in (19)64 in Los Angeles, so obviously what went on at Berkeley, what was going on in Watts and a lot of these things are directly related to him. And of course, that was a thrust onto the national stage in (19)76, and of course we know the rest of the history.
RS (01:26:37):
It was stunning how easily people were willing to... What is the word? Take extreme measures against people who thought different.
SM (01:26:55):
Right.
RS (01:26:58):
We used to call them the thought police, and I think we were right.
SM (01:27:03):
In your own words because you are a boomer and I guess you are 60, you were born in (19)49?
RS (01:27:09):
60 going on 19.
SM (01:27:12):
That is... Time and peace, same with me. I am not 60.
RS (01:27:17):
I am still trying to figure out what I am going to do when I grow up.
SM (01:27:21):
Yeah, Rick, that is the same thing with me.
RS (01:27:25):
My hair is just as long, I have worked out a lot. No, you can grow older without growing old.
SM (01:27:36):
I agree. And I believe the young people of that era, even though they stay in shape to try to stay young and so forth, there was a period of time many did not think that they were going to be mortal people, but they were going to live forever, I think they realized they were not going to now. But you know-
RS (01:27:57):
I saw people in law school in their early 20s who look like old men.
SM (01:28:04):
Yeah.
RS (01:28:04):
Not physically, but so much is spiritually.
SM (01:28:08):
Right.
RS (01:28:09):
You could see the... Yeah, their adolescence was a distant memory.
SM (01:28:17):
Yep.
RS (01:28:17):
Was all about the buck.
SM (01:28:20):
Yeah.
RS (01:28:22):
A work, go work hard in a law school, hope that a big corporate law firm hires you, 80 hours a week, make partner, buy a big house and then get divorced, move on to your... get rid of your starter wife and move up the social ladder.
SM (01:28:43):
And have a heart attack by 50. Sam... Describe the following years in your own words. You said, this is the era the boomers have been alive, do you like the term boomer?
RS (01:28:56):
I do not think it has been well defined. I mean, what is a boomer? Just because you were born a certain age, at a certain time period. I think it is more what you do than the time you were born. Were the boomers, by many people's definition, they psychologically were.
SM (01:29:17):
Yep. Yeah. I am finding that out that-
RS (01:29:20):
Ginsburg was a, if you want to think, Allen Ginsburg was a boomer.
SM (01:29:26):
Mm-hmm. Richie Havens was born in 1941, but he said, "I am a boomer. I am more of a boomer than the people who were boomers in the last 10 years of the boomer timeline." A lot of them believe boomers are really people that were born say around (19)37, (19)38 and go to about (19)56 or (19)57.
RS (01:29:47):
Rachel Meadow said something, and I know I am mangling her quote about, "Being put in a category so you could be satirized easily."
SM (01:29:56):
Right. Well, when you look at these periods, again, it is defined, higher ed does this for a reason, the boomers of those born between (19)46 and (19)64, that is the definition. And Obama would be a boomer because he was born in (19)62, I think.
(01:30:14):
But I am going to give you six timeframes here just put some words to these timeframes. For 1946 to 1960, what was it like to be in America at that time? Just a few words.
RS (01:30:31):
Conform, and they were wearing t-shirts, white t-shirts with nothing printed on them. I think Country Joe McDonald did something like that, "We wore white t-shirts, but we did not have anything written, nothing was written them.
SM (01:30:45):
Yep. I remember that.
RS (01:30:50):
When you graduated from high school, you went to work, went to college, or joined the army.
SM (01:30:56):
Mm-hmm. How about that period? (19)61 to (19)70?
RS (01:31:06):
You know, for me, probably the low point was the assassination of John Kennedy. I knew right away nothing would ever be the same.
SM (01:31:11):
Mm-hmm. Where were you when he was shot?
RS (01:31:17):
I sitting in the classroom in seventh grade when it came over to the intercom.
SM (01:31:22):
And were you let out of school early?
RS (01:31:25):
I believe so. I believe so. That was a terrible time, and I believe the country lost a great deal of its innocence and naivete.
SM (01:31:36):
When you look at that whole period about (19)61 through (19)70, besides Kennedy, what comes to mind? Or, does he dominate?
RS (01:31:48):
Could you repeat the question?
SM (01:31:50):
Yeah. Between 1961 and 1970, what comes to mind besides Kennedy? Or, is that assassination the dominant theme?
RS (01:31:59):
Kind of, for me a good analogy would be changing from watching a black and white TV to watching a color TV. Things exploded. I mean, there was the free speech movement in Berkeley. There was Ken Kesey and the Mary Pranksters, the use of cut... expanding drugs, a certain more openness to question what had been taken for granted.
SM (01:32:33):
Mm-hmm. How about the period (19)71 to 1980?
RS (01:32:43):
Liberalism, but retrenching. Talk about legalizing marijuana by Jimmy Carter, and I do not want to put words in his mouth, that was not what he said. Possibly the decriminalization, and I should not quote him either because I do not want to, but the decriminalization of marijuana, the mainstream acceptance of some of the arts. Including music, drawings, clothes. Yet, retrenching at the same time. I will never forget when I came out to Berkeley in 1976 to visit, I went into the Good Earth health food store and the girl working behind the counter was wearing a shirt with an alligator on it. I knew things had changed.
SM (01:33:42):
Yeah. How about 1981 to 1990?
RS (01:33:55):
Yeah. Think about that one. I cannot give you something off the top of my head. That is hard. Disco? No, that was earlier. I should not say disco.
SM (01:33:59):
That was the (19)76 to (19)80.
RS (01:34:12):
Oh God, I am dating myself.
SM (01:34:13):
Ronald Reagan was that period.
RS (01:34:16):
He was. Just say no, the demonization of the (19)60s and the counterculture.
SM (01:34:29):
How about 1991 to 2000?
RS (01:34:35):
At first, the belief that we had elected for president one of us. Clinton playing saxophone on Arsenio Hall was something I never expected to see a presidential candidate do. Well, Nixon played the piano on Jack Paar, I believe.
SM (01:34:55):
Right.
RS (01:34:55):
Not the same.
SM (01:35:00):
Yeah. I think-
RS (01:35:00):
The idea that we had elected someone who would understand, to use a cliche, where we were coming from, because he and his wife were one of us.
SM (01:35:15):
Mm-hmm. And the period-
RS (01:35:28):
Art, hip.
SM (01:35:29):
Right.
RS (01:35:29):
Intelligent and presumably liberal.
SM (01:35:30):
Then the period 2001 to 2011?
RS (01:35:35):
Frightening.
SM (01:35:38):
Certainly 9/11 defined it.
RS (01:35:40):
Frightening. The rationalization of entrenching further and further government control in every aspect of people's lives, and the justification for taking away people's liberty.
SM (01:36:01):
This is just another thing too. When you are talking about the period, how did the Cold War, McCarthyism, the threat of the nuclear bomb, the space race, the March on Washington in (19)63, the Kennedy inaugural speech, "Ask not what your country can do for you..." And his assassination, the Cuban Missile Crisis, shape your life? Those are all major happenings. You already talked about JFK, but were those other events in some way affect your life?
RS (01:36:34):
Well, not directly, but it really made you feel how vulnerable you were. If the president can get shot what can happen to me?
SM (01:36:46):
You are right.
RS (01:36:50):
The impermanence of everything, if the mighty and powerful can be taken down, how about the little guy's chance? I keep going back to the movie Network, which I thought was excellent, about America not being finished. It was the end that we sit in our houses with our color TVs and we have some steel-belted radials. There was also another movie by Jules Pfeiffer, named Little Murders, with Elliot Gould.
SM (01:37:27):
Elliot Gould?
RS (01:37:28):
Who sat there living behind steel shutters in New York, sniping at people and then shooting back. Kind of like Escape from New York... let us see, a prequel to Escape from New York.
SM (01:37:43):
Wow.
RS (01:37:43):
I do not know where I am coming up with this.
SM (01:37:48):
Yeah, what is happened with a lot of my interviews is that I interviewed... Well, who was it? [inaudible]... Richard Flax. You know Dr. Flax?
RS (01:37:59):
I do not.
SM (01:37:59):
He helped write the free speech move... excuse me, the Tom Hayden, and he was a professor of UC Santa Barbara and I brought up things in it, and boy, he loved it yesterday or two days ago because it was bringing back these memories and he was pretty good at remembering things. And he felt real good at the end of the interview because it stretched his mind and made him remember things he had not thought about in a long time. Do you think we as a nation have an issue with healing, problem with healing? We took a group of students to Washington in 1995 to see Edmund Muskie and the students that I took down to Washington from my university were not alive in the (19)60s, but they had seen the 1968 convention, the terrible battles between police and young people, and they saw what happened inside the convention hall. They had seen movies of what was going on in the (19)60s. They knew the two people that were murdered in 1968, and they had seen some people in those videos saying that we are having a second civil war coming and all those other things. And since we had Edmund Muskie to talk to, he was the vice-presidential running mate. And so they thought he was going to respond to this question based on 1968. And the question was this, do you feel that due to the tremendous divisions that took place in our society, that during the time that the boomers have been alive, that they are going to go to their grave, like the Civil War generation not truly healing? That the bitterness, the vindictiveness, dislikes have continued in many ways and we see it today in our divisive nature, in our politics, and of course the backlash we see. So do you think we have a problem as a nation with healing?
RS (01:40:06):
I do, and I am not optimistic. Views seem to be getting more and more and more entrenched. I mean, an example is Fox News and MSNBC, I cannot recall the name of the writer of a wrote about mirror culture, how you only want to see things that reflect back what you already want to see. I think that is very true. I am guilty of it myself. I think conservative people will go to their graves saying that we ruined America and liberal people will go to their graves saying we tried to save it.
SM (01:40:53):
Do you think that the wall, the Vietnam Memorial, which I know you probably visited.
RS (01:41:02):
Actually, I have not, but I am familiar with it.
SM (01:41:05):
Yeah. Has that done anything, as Jan Scruggs said in his book, not only did we build the wall mainly to heal the vets, the families of those who died, and the 3 million who served, but that we tried in some way to heal the nation. Do you think the wall has done that?
RS (01:41:23):
I do not. I think it is a wonderful monument to people who died, in my view, unnecessarily. But as far as healing goes, I do not know. I think it is a place for people to go and grieve family or friend, but an influence beyond that, I do not think, I do not so.
SM (01:41:45):
Do you think, I have a question here too regarding trust. That one of the major qualities that the boomer generation possesses, and I kind of include all 70... I do not like to generalize, but I think in this one I am that all 74 million, those who were for or against the war, liberals, conservatives, or even the 85 to 90 percent who were not activists in any way and just went on with their lives, so to speak, but were subconsciously affected that this is a generation that did not trust. It did not trust because of the fact that so many of their leaders lied to them. Whether you were astute enough to see Eisenhower lie to elementary school kids in 1959 about U2, the spy plane that he said it was not, and it was. To the Gulf of Tonkin with Lyndon Johnson, to Watergate with Richard Nixon, to all the lies that came out of Vietnam in terms of numbers. And there did not seem to be any trusting in our generation toward anyone in the sense of authority, whether it be a president, a university president, a corporate leader, a rabbi, a priest, a minister, anybody in a position of leadership, we do not trust them.
RS (01:43:04):
I think it is a health mistrust. I think not questioning authority is unhealthy. Again, I keep going wait to the classics, the Greek classics.
SM (01:43:20):
Right?
RS (01:43:21):
People have always been punished for questioning the predominant, I do not want to use rulers, what is a better word than rulers? Governing authority. Remember a bumper sticker, "Subvert the dominant paradigm." That is very good. That is very good.
SM (01:43:56):
Do you remember as a young person, when you were a college student, you would see a car that had an American flag on it and you knew that the person who had the American flag was a conservative saying that, "I am a better American than you are." Basically a statement to those who were against the war.
RS (01:44:15):
Absolutely. I remember a friend telling me a story about he was attending the University of Iowa, going into this small town for whatever reason, meeting hostility and running into some guy who he saw also had long hair, was as if had met his brother, you knew you could trust him. You knew who someone was by their looks, I should say you knew what they believed by their looks. Now, I think there are a great deal of wolves in sheep clothing.
SM (01:44:51):
Yeah. I think there were a lot of wolves in sheep's clothing, but I can remember just getting off the subject, but I was picked up by my dad, we were going home from college and he pulled into a gas station and there was a man who had a white... He pulled into a gas station and there was a man who had an American flag. I did not have that long hair. I had longer hair, but not real long.
RS (01:45:10):
Were you a communist homosexual radical?
SM (01:45:13):
No, but what happened was I looked at that flag and I said to my dad, "I got to say something to that guy." My dad said, "Steve, do not start something here." Because basically I would learned that putting an American flag on your car then, not like it is now, it is different today, but putting a flag on your car then was basically saying, "I am a better American than you are." And that pissed me off.
RS (01:45:39):
Well, the prevalent attitude by many people was "love it or leave it."
SM (01:45:42):
That is right.
RS (01:45:42):
Instead of love it or change it.
SM (01:45:42):
Yes.
RS (01:45:49):
That is not the right way to say this. Love it and change it.
SM (01:45:53):
Exactly.
RS (01:45:54):
It was not, if you did not like it, get out. Because if you like it, help it.
SM (01:46:01):
What are the lessons learned from the (19)60s? And what are the lessons lost from the (19)60s?
RS (01:46:10):
I think one of them is to have fun. To have fun. I remember in the movie Citizen Kane, Edward Everett Horton, who played Bernstein, saying to the reporter interviewing him, "It is very easy to make a lot of money if all you want to do is make a lot of money." I want to do a lot more. Although I could certainly use the financial, cannot count it when you are dead. Although, oh, that is a stupid thing to fix. You cannot count anything after you are dead. But try hugging it when you are lonely or scared. Human... There is a word I am searching. Human values rather than material value?
SM (01:47:11):
Yeah, materialism.
RS (01:47:15):
It is necessary, but it is not sufficient. How about that?
SM (01:47:25):
That is great.
RS (01:47:26):
Accumulation of objects and wealth may be necessary, but it certainly is deficient.
SM (01:47:29):
What are the lessons you think we have lost from the (19)60s and the (19)70s? Or when boomers were young?
RS (01:47:37):
Certainly there is more cynicism, bitterness. I think what we lost is the sense that we can make a difference. As I said earlier, many people, young people, I believe give up without trying. How will they know?
SM (01:48:05):
I know that when you hear people like Tom Hayden and some of the other activists who have been unbelievable leaders their whole lives, they look at the positive side of today's generation as they see some of the activism that they are involved in on the computer. It is changed somewhat, but there is a lot of activism going on-on the internet and so forth, so there are some good things. It is just one of them seems to be that they are not publicized and so we do not know.
RS (01:48:38):
I disagree. I am very late to the technological revolution. I do not believe that someone sending you an email from Australia telling you "your friend" makes them your friend. I thought a friend with someone you could call late at night when you needed them and they would come. That is someone who wants to get on a social network and say, " I am your friend," but then if you ever actually spoke and called them and needed help, will they be there for you?
SM (01:49:10):
Good point. Yep. I am now to the section I want to ask you about your memorabilia after all this time. Sorry, make sure the tapes back on here again. And it seems to be working. All right. You said in your email that you have a thousand items and 700 are signed.
RS (01:49:44):
I have several thousand items.
SM (01:49:45):
Wow. Have you broken these down into different categories? What are the categories?
RS (01:49:56):
Books. I collect first edition books. Books, posters, handbills, leaflets, underground newspapers, underground comics, bumper stickers, records, clothes, pinback buttons, and a lot of miscellaneous stuff.
SM (01:50:28):
I should have told you, I just got rid of all my (19)70s clothes.
RS (01:50:31):
Oh.
SM (01:50:33):
I gave them to the Salvation Army. I had them all these years. They were in great shape too.
RS (01:50:39):
Do not tell me stuff like that.
SM (01:50:41):
Well, I figured they did not have any value.
RS (01:50:43):
I do not know. I have clothes, but I have no idea what the value is.
SM (01:50:50):
Right. Well, I still have some of them, but it is the clothes I wore. You know those shoes that were platform shoes and those kinds of things?
RS (01:50:57):
Absolutely.
SM (01:50:59):
Well, I did not get rid of those, but I do have some of the items.
RS (01:51:04):
Glam Rock stuff.
SM (01:51:06):
Oh, yeah. Now, how did you accumulate? Did you buy these or did you... And how did you get them all signed? Or did you collect them while you were in college, or has this all been something since your college days in collecting?
RS (01:51:21):
No, I started collecting things in college: underground newspapers, comics, posters, leaflets. Political protest leaflets I would take off a telephone pole. They looked interesting, and many of them were period pieces with artwork. I knew these things were unique to the time period, and I felt that they should be preserved.
SM (01:51:50):
Excellent.
RS (01:51:50):
Later on, in the (19)80s, I got a catalog from someone who had taken many items. And it was the first time I had seen these things categorized and broken down into logical, coherent categories. I bought a few items and it became obsessive.
SM (01:52:13):
It is like me, I am a bibliophile, so I have thousands of books. So, I have a lot of (19)60s books.
RS (01:52:20):
I have a lot myself, but I thought that it would be wonderful to meet some of the people who were involved and participated in all the activities. And I started going to book signings and political discussions and just hearing all the lecturers, authors, as well as scrounging through used bookstores, junk shops, yard sales, catalogs, Paper Collectors Magazines, record stores. That is quite a bit.
SM (01:53:00):
Yeah. Well, what is interesting, I have collected anything dealing with Vietnam on magazines. And I have ordered them all. And so I have just about anything linked of Vietnam. I have all the Look, Life magazines that have Vietnam. I have gotten a lot of Newsweek and Time magazines dealing with that as well.
RS (01:53:23):
Posters. I am sorry to interrupt.
SM (01:53:25):
Yeah, go ahead.
RS (01:53:26):
I think posters could be broken down into two different groups, really. Posters that were used for one specific event, such as a protest rally or a music concert or a literary event. The posters produced either commercially or underground dealing with politics, ecology, et cetera. One example of the first one are Fillmore or Avalon posters, meaning posters used to promote events at the Fillmore Auditorium or the Avalon ballroom.
SM (01:53:57):
Oh, yeah.
RS (01:54:01):
And posters for political events or handbills such as the Yippies passed out before the Democratic Convention. And then just generalized things like "Make Love Not War" was one classic. Just in general cultural items.
SM (01:54:23):
Bill Graham, somebody bought a warehouse of all his stuff.
RS (01:54:28):
Sure. I bought some things from Ben Friedman, he used to have a store called The Postermat at 601 Columbus in San Francisco.
SM (01:54:34):
Right.
RS (01:54:36):
Yes.
SM (01:54:36):
They were sitting there for years, just in the closed warehouse, is not that correct?
RS (01:54:41):
Yes. Well, I do not want to get off, but this is off the record, but people from the company called Park Rock bought it. This is what they paid. Oh, they bought it for a million dollars, made the first payment and then stiffed them. And they made a small fortune on this stuff.
SM (01:54:57):
Oh, wow.
RS (01:54:57):
It is more than a small one.
SM (01:54:59):
Wow. Yeah. Now, when you talk about how many... I broke it down here. I thought you had had books, posters, records. Do you have toys?
RS (01:55:11):
I have miscellaneous of things. A jigsaw puzzle with Agnew on one side and Nixon on the other. I do not know toys per se, but miscellaneous items: little figurines, clothes, just all sorts of things.
SM (01:55:32):
Yeah. I still have all my cowboy and Indian sets from the (19)50s.
RS (01:55:39):
Wow.
SM (01:55:40):
Yeah. And army, those metal army figures. I accumulated them all. They are all going to my... I am creating a center for the study of the boomer generation at my parents' college.
RS (01:55:54):
What I would like to do very, very much is get some of my stuff in display cases.
SM (01:55:59):
Yes.
RS (01:56:00):
Exhibit. I spoke with the director of special collections for the University of Virginia Library, and he is very interested, but they have a lag time for exhibits for two years. They have a large collection of their own. And he said he would run it by a committee to see if they wanted to get involved with my stuff, but I do not think they have a budget to do it.
SM (01:56:25):
Yeah. Do you have a website with some? You do not put your stuff out there on the pictures.
RS (01:56:28):
No, I do not. I am private that way. I do not want someone to see what I have.
SM (01:56:28):
Yeah. I think you need to keep that private.
RS (01:56:35):
I would be happy to show it to them, but I do not really publicize what I do, what I have.
SM (01:56:40):
Yeah, same here. I have a condominium here and I got two of the rooms are stacked with books and books everywhere and people cannot believe all the books I have.
RS (01:56:49):
Yeah. What I have is my stuff. There is a company that makes archival things called Light Impressions, archival storage boxes with pH neutral cardboard and Mylar sleeves. I have hundreds and hundreds, if not more, of my handbills and leaflets in Mylar sleeves.
SM (01:57:15):
Wow. Those are—
RS (01:57:15):
Supposedly, Mylar is chemically inert and will last for a hundred years.
SM (01:57:18):
Wow. Yeah, you said you have used them in a college course. What college and how did they use them?
RS (01:57:27):
There was a course at the college at Marin on the 19(19)60s, and I brought some to show. But I enjoy meeting some of the people who were involved or caused so much of everything to happen. Like everyone from Jerry Rubin, Paul Krassner, people involved with the Human Be-In in Golden Gate Park. Rock musicians. Of course, Ginsburg, Berliner, Getty, Michael McClure, Tim Leary, John Sinclair from the White Panther Party. Then Tom Hayden.
SM (01:58:13):
Do you have presidential memorabilia too from that era?
RS (01:58:17):
Not really. I have political posters, but I would not call it presidential memorabilia.
SM (01:58:28):
Yeah.
RS (01:58:28):
And anti-Nixon, anti- Johnson. Yeah.
SM (01:58:37):
I actually, this is your interview, but I collected as a kid, so I had the Eisenhower/Nixon stuff, and then I have the Nixon/Lodge stuff who ran against Kennedy and Johnson. Then I have Kennedy/Johnson, and then I have Barry Goldwater and Miller.
RS (01:58:55):
Well, I have a Gene McCarthy item signed by him and a George McGovern item signed by him.
SM (01:59:04):
Great. Yeah. You noticed the people that I have interviewed, most of them have signed their books. And then, of course, I worked at the university for 30 some years, and so everybody that came through, I had them sign their books. So I have a lot of things too. But I am curious, I listed some names here from Jerry Ruben to Ken Kesey, Alan Ginsburg, Leary, Paul Krassner, Jerry Garcia. Any of the Black Panther stuff?
RS (01:59:33):
Sure.
SM (01:59:34):
Yeah. I wonder what happened to all that stuff that was over in Oakland. Did anybody ever keep any of that stuff besides you?
RS (01:59:43):
I believe the Black Panthers sold their archive to Stanford University. But sure, Bobby Seale, Kathleen Cleaver, and a number of other people's signatures.
SM (02:00:00):
Wow. How about the free speech movement? Any materials on that?
RS (02:00:03):
Absolutely. Mario Savio who passed away long ago signed a few of my things. Michael Rossman, who passed away did. Yes, I do. I really have a well-rounded collection in a lot of different areas: political, social, artistic.
SM (02:00:28):
And then of course you had... I do not know if you had materials from the Summer of Love, which was (19)67 and—
RS (02:00:35):
A great deal. There was a group in the 1967 Summer of Love in The Haight-Ashbury called The Diggers, which was—
SM (02:00:42):
Oh, yeah. That is with Peter Coyote.
RS (02:00:45):
I have approximately 40 of their handbills.
SM (02:00:48):
Wow.
RS (02:00:51):
Sure. I have all five handbills the Human Be-in.
SM (02:00:57):
Oh my gosh.
RS (02:00:57):
And two printer variants. Each one has signed by about 15, 20 participants in the event. And one of the two Human Be-In posters, which is a classic. I have an original Acid Test poster from 1964, which is extremely rare, signed by Ken Kesey, and Allen Ginsberg, and Paul Krassner and others.
SM (02:01:21):
Wow. Yeah. How did you find that?
RS (02:01:27):
I got it from Kesey's son actually. I used to be friends with him in the (19)80s, (19)90s.
SM (02:01:31):
Oh, wow.
RS (02:01:33):
Zane Kesey. I was friends with him, and I actually went up to Oregon for the world premiere of a play his dad, Ken Kesey, wrote called Twister in the early (19)90s. And then when they put the play on here at the Fillmore Auditorium for two nights, I did the video camera work for one night.
SM (02:01:56):
Yeah. Do you have any things from Kent State too?
RS (02:02:09):
I have something that is absolutely unique. I got it from one of the attorneys for some of the National Guardsmen involved died, and in his estate was an actual transcript of where interrogation is, might be wrong, questioning of the National Guardsmen under oath as to what happened afterwards. It is one of a kind.
SM (02:02:34):
Wow. Yeah, I know recently, in the last couple years, one of those Guardsmen died that had actually spoken. Most of them have not spoken, but he was the one that had, and then he passed away. I forget his name.
RS (02:02:51):
I have Judge Julius Hoffman, who presided over the Chicago Seven trial in Chicago's Christmas album during that time with Christmas cards from Mayor Daley and the head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, and a number of other people.
SM (02:03:05):
They did a record?
RS (02:03:07):
No. They did... Look, this is actually Judge... Let me back up. This is Judge Julius Hoffman's Christmas album. I do not mean album. I mean his own Christmas cards that were sent to him that he put in an album.
SM (02:03:20):
Oh my gosh. Wow.
RS (02:03:25):
I have quite a bit.
SM (02:03:26):
How would you ever find that? How do you find some of these things?
RS (02:03:30):
In the Paper Collectors Magazine about 20 years ago.
SM (02:03:34):
Wow.
RS (02:03:35):
Hang on for a second. Let me just grab some more water.
SM (02:03:36):
Yep, that is okay.
RS (02:03:37):
I got a lot of early SDS publications from the the early (19)60s and one called the Port Huron Statement. It was a pivotal document that came out in 1963. I do not know how much you want to hear about this.
SM (02:04:16):
Yeah, I just want just some of the items because it is important that this is history and this is all about history.
RS (02:04:19):
Sorry. Sorry, I interrupted you. Please go ahead. Go ahead.
SM (02:04:21):
No, I am done. Go ahead.
RS (02:04:23):
The Port Huron Statement was... What is the word? It had to do with student participation which is participatory democracy. A number of similar leaders from all over the country met in 1963 in Port Huron, Michigan to put together a manifesto for student participation in politics in society. I have a mimeograph draft version that Tom Hayden wrote, which I believe may be the only copy in the world.
SM (02:05:03):
Wow.
RS (02:05:04):
Signed by Tom Hayden.
SM (02:05:05):
Yeah, because you see he and Richard Flax were the two that wrote it. Wow.
RS (02:05:08):
I believe The Port Huron Statement was primarily written by Tom Hayden.
SM (02:05:09):
It was, but Richard Flax was a very good writer and Tom got to know him quite well, and he was involved in making some corrections and proper English, so he was there. I interviewed him on Monday. He is a retired sociology professor.
RS (02:05:35):
Huh.
SM (02:05:36):
And he has written some great books. He has written three major books on the (19)60s. He is a retired professor.
RS (02:05:46):
No, I have, as I said, a lot of early SDS items. I have Weather Underground items, Yippie items; hand bills mostly. Of course, Woodstock related items, including tickets and the program for Woodstock, which is very rare because it rained for three days and the programs were mostly destroyed.
SM (02:06:11):
You are right. You are right.
RS (02:06:14):
So, I have an original Woodstock program signed by some of the participants of Woodstock.
SM (02:06:19):
Wow. So that is really neat. Yeah, I have quite a few books that are signed by people, but it is fun, is not it, trying to get them to sign things if they are still alive, some of these people.
RS (02:06:36):
And some are nice and some are not, but I guess that is the way people are.
SM (02:06:40):
Right.
RS (02:06:42):
Some of them insist on dating things because when they date them it makes it less valuable than if they had just simply signed their name. But word records that are very rare dealing with politics or drug use, a whole host of things. It is hard to summarize several thousand items. I made a mistake. The Port Huron Statement, in addition to having the mimeograph, I also have a second printing. I just have the mimeograph draft statement.
SM (02:07:22):
I think the original was in a brown cover?
RS (02:07:25):
God, yeah. Yeah, you are right. Yes. Yes, you are absolutely correct. Yes.
SM (02:07:31):
And guess who has that?
RS (02:07:34):
You.
SM (02:07:34):
Yes. I found that in a used bookstore.
RS (02:07:39):
Well, I have the second printing and I have the mimeograph draft version, but I do not have a first printing.
SM (02:07:48):
Wow.
RS (02:07:50):
And then the San Francisco Oracle was the quintessential underground newspaper. Only 12 issues were put out. It was in San Francisco by Allen Cohen. And I have every issue also signed by Allen, who passed away. Fillmore and Avalon posters, as I said, and handbills.
SM (02:08:19):
Wow.
RS (02:08:20):
Several hundred pinback buttons, political and cultural, such as Make Love Not War.
SM (02:08:31):
The black fist for the Black Panthers?
RS (02:08:33):
Sure.
SM (02:08:34):
Yeah. Wow.
RS (02:08:36):
The many anti-Nixon, anti-Johnson, Gene McCarthy, George McGovern.
SM (02:08:45):
Wow. Excellent.
RS (02:08:53):
I really feel an obligation to try to preserve as much of the counterculture as possible.
SM (02:09:02):
Yeah. Now that you have got this collection together, what do you plan to do with it? You going to pass it on to a university for protection someday?
RS (02:09:14):
I really do not know. I have not decided.
SM (02:09:14):
Unless you got a family that cares about it.
RS (02:09:16):
Well, I am single.
SM (02:09:22):
As a person who is reached 62, (19)60s, I have had to think about where my stuff's going, and my family, none of them want this stuff. So, I am working on an arrangement with my parents' college that they will take my collection for nothing, as long as they protect it, preserve it, and they follow guidelines that I give to them. And it has to be for education, and it has to be for students and research.
RS (02:09:55):
Good.
SM (02:09:55):
Because you just cannot let it just go. And it has to go where it is going to be appreciated. And to me, it has to be used by students. And it is going to take a couple years, because this college, I could have done it to my alma mater SUNY Binghamton and I would have gotten a much bigger response and a much faster response. But I am doing it because my parents went to this small school outside Syracuse, Cazenovia College, and I want to be able to do something to improve their campus, but they have got to protect it. And it is going to take a while because they do not have the building, they do not have the money. And times are tough, but I know what I want them to do. And for items like you have, you also want to make sure that if a university ends up... you need to have a person that is going to check on them every so often, someone that you can trust that they are following through with what they said they were going to do with the materials. So, I have my niece, even though she has got... I have picked one person. She has agreed to do it. So that when all my items are there and all documented and everything, that no one professor can take items away from it and keep it for themselves. Secondly, some items have to be worn with white gloves. Thirdly, and most importantly, they cannot be taken away from the university and they cannot be taken away from the research area where they are. They are for student and faculty research. It is pure education. It is a lot easier said than done right now because that place is almost 400 miles from me. I am not going to die tomorrow, I hope, but I do know that I have it now that they are going to get them.
RS (02:11:57):
It is a good plan. I have not taken it that far yet.
SM (02:12:00):
Yeah, but you need to know that your items are valuable. And you know something? Rick, I think sometimes even beyond the person who collects, there is a reason why you are doing it that you may not even realize it while. You are doing it because you like it and you personally care about these things.
RS (02:12:22):
Well, also because I feel I have, for whatever reason, an obligation to preserve as much as possible of a time period I do not think it is ever going to happen again.
SM (02:12:32):
I agree.
RS (02:12:35):
This was a, I cannot say unique because every time period is unique, but a groundbreaking explosion of human potential.
SM (02:12:49):
Yeah. I think some of the things you have got are unique, because they have never existed before and will never exist again.
RS (02:12:58):
Well, showing how society had changed so much. I feel like a cultural historian.
SM (02:13:06):
And I know Paul, when he gave the names, it has taken me a while to contact the names. I think I had your name six months ago from Paul. But I have contacted everyone and the only person in the list that he gave me is Stewart Brand was the only one that did not want to do an interview. He is the only one.
RS (02:13:24):
Funny you mentioned him. About 20 years ago, I asked for some autographs on things. Excuse me, I have to eat something. I feel my blood sugar dropping down to zero. I was living in Mill Valley. Stewart Brand had a place in Sausalito where he did the Whole Earth catalog.
SM (02:13:46):
Yes.
RS (02:13:48):
I called and said, "I collected some things. They are not for resale. This is just for me. Would you sign all my stuff?" He said, "No autographs!" Just like that. "No, autographs!"
SM (02:14:01):
Yeah. Well, he must be a friend of Paul's. But he just simply said, "I have no interest at this time." But he also is a multi-millionaire now, and so he has got—
RS (02:14:15):
I think after he went to MIT and became a technocrat he kind of lost his roots.
SM (02:14:20):
Yeah. He is the only one. And then the other one is Ina May Gaskin. I interviewed Steven, but Ina May has not responded. So she is the only other one. And it took me a while to get Carolyn Garcia, but I finally got Carolyn.
RS (02:14:39):
She is sweet.
SM (02:14:40):
Oh, she is really nice. I interviewed her on the phone and when I was out there I took her picture just outside Golden Gate Park. She is a very nice person. By the way, she does not like that new book on Ken Kesey either.
RS (02:14:51):
Which one?
SM (02:14:52):
It is a brand-new book out. I bought it right over there by the Golden Gate Park, the Haight Street...
RS (02:15:06):
The Booksmith.
SM (02:15:06):
Yeah. And it was in there and it was brand new. And I mentioned to Carolyn when I was... She just drove over so I could take her picture at the entrance to the park to be at the top of her interview. And she says, "He was not supposed to print that book. There were certain things that I objected to and that I did not like." So, there is some mistruths in that book. And I do not know anything about it, but I think there is going to be some issues going on down the road on that. My last question is this, do you have any more to say on the memorabilia?
RS (02:15:42):
It is an incredible window into a wonderful time period in American history. Give me a second.
SM (02:15:54):
Yep.
RS (02:15:54):
Can I say something that if you want to put this in somewhere you can?
SM (02:15:58):
Okay.
RS (02:16:00):
I went to about 160 Grateful Dead concerts.
SM (02:16:03):
Wow.
RS (02:16:04):
Some of the best times in my life.
SM (02:16:06):
I only went to one.
RS (02:16:08):
Wonderful, wonderful. My first one was in Madison, actually, College. And at that time things were so loose that, looking appropriate, I just simply walked up some stairs up to the stage and spent the whole concert leaning on the bass player's, Phil Lesh's, amp.
SM (02:16:28):
Oh my God.
RS (02:16:28):
That is how things were in 1970. (19)71. Actually, this is (19)71 now.
SM (02:16:28):
Right?
RS (02:16:36):
Yeah. I have about 300 Grateful Dead tapes of concerts. One of them, I was friends with a friend of one of the guys, and at the 1986 New Year's show, they got me backstage. Not only backstage, but actually into the band room after the show where all the guys were. There were so many tanks of nitrous oxide, it looked like a hospital.
SM (02:16:59):
Oh my gosh.
RS (02:17:01):
And I had some of the best times in my life at those shows. I think Joseph Campbell called them a Dionysian Celebration of Life. I cannot improve on that.
SM (02:17:16):
Yeah. Jerry Garcia was a hell of a talent. And what a great guitar player. And I never met him. I just mentioned to Carolyn, just from what I saw, and I see him on YouTube a lot, he seemed to be a very gentle person.
RS (02:17:29):
He was.
SM (02:17:29):
Even with interviews with him and Ken Kesey, they looked like they were brothers. They were having a good time together. There was a mutual respect. And he seemed to be a very humble person, because he came from tough times.
RS (02:17:48):
Well, he said, I think after being in the Grateful Dead for 20 years, he was just starting to learn how to play a guitar.
SM (02:17:53):
My God. Huh.
RS (02:17:57):
I used to see him driving his BMW around Mill Valley. He was friends, well not only friends, for many years with David Grisman, who was in the New Riders of the Purple Sage, and a phenomenal mandolin player who lived nearby, a few minutes away from where I lived. I would see him driving his black BMW.
SM (02:18:14):
Well, is not it amazing that the San Francisco Bay area has all this talent? I am amazed. And of course when I lived... I lived out there from (19)76 to (19)83, Huey Lewis and the News came up and the Tower of Power were there and Boz Scaggs over in Marin County. And there were a lot of different groups. I know John Handy and his saxophone playing down at the Embarcadero Center.
RS (02:18:40):
There it’s
s one event that stood out in my mind, and I do not know where you can put this in the interview if you choose to, but after I saw the Jefferson Airplane do a concert at the University of Wisconsin Field House two weeks after Kent State, there were about 15,000 people in the audience, and the conclusion, the last song they played was called Volunteers. It was off the Volunteers album. And one of the lines was, "Up against the wall, Motherfucker." And 15,000 people put their fists in the air.
SM (02:19:19):
Wow.
RS (02:19:20):
Something I will never forget.
SM (02:19:22):
Yeah, you mentioned at Wisconsin that you saw the Grateful Dead and you saw—
RS (02:19:25):
Janice. And Hendrix.
SM (02:19:25):
You saw all these people there?
RS (02:19:32):
I remember seeing Jimi Hendrix. It was after Woodstock, but before the movie came out. And I remember during the concert, somebody said, "What can we get you, Jimi?" And he said, "A joint." They started throwing joints at him. Joints are bouncing off his chest, off his guitar.
SM (02:19:51):
Oh my gosh.
RS (02:19:54):
20 or 30 of them must have hit him. Joints. And then the last thing he did was appeared in the Woodstock movie doing the Star-Spangled Banner.
RS (02:20:03):
Appeared in the Woodstock movie doing the Star-Spangled Banner.
SM (02:20:07):
Oh yeah.
RS (02:20:07):
Which was before the movie came out. And then I had never seen In The Purple Haze.
SM (02:20:09):
Oh my God.
RS (02:20:11):
Phenomenal.
SM (02:20:14):
And you say you saw Janice there too?
RS (02:20:18):
Sure. (19)69, going to the concert November, wearing a coat and tie.
SM (02:20:28):
Unbelievable.
RS (02:20:28):
By the Kent state time I had changed. Can I tell you something that must be off the rec? My roommates and I used to buy hash from and Glenn Silber who did the War at Home movie.
SM (02:20:36):
Oh my gosh.
RS (02:20:38):
I have been around my friend.
SM (02:20:40):
Yeah. Well when Janice Joplin was, that was the Chief Turtles album, right around that time. I have a story, I have interviewed so many people, but the hippies were upset with her because of the fact that the hippies were into drugs, not alcohol.
RS (02:21:00):
She was into Southern Comfort.
SM (02:21:01):
Yeah, she was into Southern Comfort, and a lot of the hippies did not get along with her. She broke a rule. Hippies do not drink alcohol.
RS (02:21:10):
Maybe beer, but that was it.
SM (02:21:12):
Yeah, but they did not like the fact that she was doing that.
RS (02:21:15):
Mind-expanding.
SM (02:21:17):
Yeah. Any other rock groups or single performers that you saw in Wisconsin?
RS (02:21:25):
Country Joe to Jefferson Airplane to the Grateful Dead. So many of the people from that time. I mean, it would be hard to give, but all the usual suspects.
SM (02:21:43):
You know what is interesting, I have one last question here, but I will mention this just for general, it will not be in the interview, but when I was in college, I went to SUNY Binghamton and we had winter break and we had spring break and we had-
RS (02:21:54):
Wild place.
SM (02:21:56):
Yeah. And we had the Paul Butterfield Blues Band all the time performing at the campus center Friday. But we had Judy Collins, we had Arlo Guthrie, we had Odetta, Oscar Peterson, Ella Fitzgerald, Duke Ellington. And then we had Iron Butterfly and the Turtles and the Mountain.
RS (02:22:22):
Sure.
SM (02:22:25):
And the Chambers Brothers. We had all these groups. Love and Spoonful, and even The Birds and Anthony Imperials. I will just never forget all these groups and these concerts when I was a college student. There is no other time.
RS (02:22:45):
There is no other. I can give you a quote that I remember. If you want to use, so be it. Remember how they used to say drugs are for people who cannot handle reality? Our saying was reality was for people who cannot handle drugs.
SM (02:23:00):
That is a great quote. I will use that.
RS (02:23:07):
I did not make it up.
SM (02:23:08):
And do not forget, you are going to see this transcript, so you can scribble some of this stuff out. My last question is this, and I have asked this to everybody. When the best history books are written about any period, it is usually 50 years afterwards. The best World War II books were coming out in the early, well, about 2000, 2001. And so some of the best World War II books are coming out now. What do you think historians and sociologists and commentators will say about the (19)60s or the Boomer generation? I think I am going to say this, Boomer generation, this generation that was born after World War II, and was very young in the (19)60s and the seventies and early eighties. What do you think they will say? What will be the lasting legacy? And I say this knowing that the Boomers are now reaching older age, they still got 15 to 20 years left so they could change old age, but just your thoughts. What do you think they are going to say? Especially after the last Boomer may have passed on?
RS (02:24:10):
Well, that was the flowering of you and potential. So, we did not take anything at face value. So, we questioned authority, and that we can make a difference, and we did.
SM (02:24:27):
That is great. Is there any questions I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?
RS (02:24:37):
About the specific items in my collection, which I do not have to tell you about, but I really thought that is half of what you would do would be about what we had discussed, and half what would be about collecting counterculture member review. But I understand this is a sociology book and not for collectors.
SM (02:24:53):
Yeah. Well, you can tell me more about your collection because I did not know what items you had except some general items. I can ask specific questions like the items you have linked to Ken Kesey or any of the beats.
RS (02:25:09):
I mean, I have highlight, I have to tell you, in all honesty, I am pretty punchy. And not because of you, it is because I thought we would go for an hour and it is two and a half.
SM (02:25:20):
I think that is enough.
RS (02:25:21):
So I thought you said an hour and a half. But no, I am not complaining at all, I am just saying I am starting to wander a little. My mind is not quite as disciplined as when we started. But I think that we did make a difference. So I know we did. And then from now on, no one will take unquestioned the statement from the government to the mainstream media. That you need to think for yourself, draw your own conclusions, do not accept anything at face value without running it through your own mind and deciding whether it makes sense or not. And the motivations for what was said by whoever was saying and why? What are they looking for you to do? Is it in their self-interest or is it in yours?
SM (02:26:06):
Yeah. Using a Paul Krassner line, we just hit the midway point. Yeah, I think Paul would laugh at that. Tell you, fantastic.
RS (02:26:20):
Pleasure speaking to you.
SM (02:26:23):
Yeah, no, Rick, I wish I would come out when I was out to San Francisco. I had not been out there in 10 years.
RS (02:26:27):
You are always welcome to-
SM (02:26:29):
And I might go out again next year and I want to meet Paul and Nancy. I will even drive down if I have to down south just to see him. I want to take their pictures and stuff like that. There is a few other people in LA. But I regret that I had not called you before I went to San Francisco because I met seven people to take their pictures. I met Carolyn Garcia, took her picture. Peter Richardson, who wrote the book on Ramparts Magazine, Jim Quay, former head of the Arts council who lives in the Bay Area, and-
RS (02:27:03):
Wait, girl was sweet.
SM (02:27:05):
Huh?
RS (02:27:06):
Carolyn Cassidy was known during the pranks, it still is, its mountain girl.
SM (02:27:12):
Yes-yes. And then I-
RS (02:27:14):
Very sweet person. Lived in Ballenas for many years, which was another counter cultural, it is on the Pacific Ocean. Incredibly beautiful, very isolated. You have to drive over Mountain [inaudible] here in Marin County to get there.
SM (02:27:31):
I think Charles-
RS (02:27:32):
Go ahead.
SM (02:27:33):
I think Charles wrote a book, something to do with Ballenas Bay too.
RS (02:27:38):
Probably. It is very beautiful, wildlife and all that, but a lot of the, she lived right near there for a long time.
SM (02:27:49):
Wow.
RS (02:27:55):
I really do feel an obligation to preserve as much of this time period as I can.
SM (02:27:57):
I think it is a great thing that you are doing.
RS (02:28:00):
Thank you, Stephen.
SM (02:28:01):
I admire you for doing it and we need more people like you because in the end I think subconsciously you are preserving it, but you are preserving it for others. It is that (19)60s mentality. I know that I have been collecting all my books and all this stuff and I am collecting all these interviews for a reason because I want young people, students, college students and general public, to get a better understanding of the times we lived in and to not have the new Gingrich's of the world and the people condemning an entire era because they do not like the politics or the personalities of the people or the long here. You got to understand the times.
RS (02:28:45):
Cultural warfare, they have a vested interest in the status quo. Just as the seed money, 90 percent of the seed money in the eighties for the partnership with Drug-Free America. You know where that came from? Tobacco companies and the alcohol companies.
SM (02:29:01):
Yep. You are right.
RS (02:29:04):
I wonder why because they did not want any other recreational interest horning in on their market.
SM (02:29:11):
Charles Wright is coming, he is teaching a course at Yale this spring. I found out so I am going to contact the Yale law and hopefully I can get an interview with him. But boy, you cannot even reach him in the Bay Area. He does not even have a website.
RS (02:29:21):
I thought he was in Berkeley.
SM (02:29:21):
Yeah.
RS (02:29:28):
Yeah, I think he is in Berkeley.
SM (02:29:28):
Well, if you ever find out a website for him or an email, let me know because I would like to try to interview him because he did write the Greening of the Merit.
RS (02:29:36):
I can tell you where he did the reading in Berkeley was six months ago at the bookstore.
SM (02:29:40):
Okay.
RS (02:29:42):
It is called Books Incorporated. Fourth Street of Berkeley.
SM (02:29:48):
Fourth Street. Okay, I could give him a call.
RS (02:29:52):
That is where he did his last reading.
SM (02:29:53):
Okay.
RS (02:29:55):
I know you are calling me to write a book and I know this is off the wall, not off the wall, but it is unrelated. I want to get my stuff in display cases somewhere where people can see it, whether it is a library, university, if you could keep me in mind, I am not looking to make any money, that would be nice, but nobody has money to pay for that kind of stuff.
SM (02:30:15):
Well, the connections that I have are only with three. I have left where I used to work, so I am done with them. I have worked there 22 years. But my alma maters, I am Ohio State, Binghamton University, and then Cazenovia, so I do have links with all of them.
RS (02:30:34):
You happen to see an opportunity where I could get my stuff in display cases or on a wall somewhere for an exhibit, I would be very-
SM (02:30:42):
I will, yep.
RS (02:30:44):
Something needs to be seen instead of being in archival boxes in my closet, Stephen.
SM (02:30:49):
Yep. Let me talk to a few people. There might even be a chance that, I am not sure, maybe at Binghamton and Seattle, Ohio State, I was a grad student there. All of my professors are gone, but I do believe there is a professor in the history department there who is a (19)60s guy, and I mean he is younger than a Boomer. Well, he is a young Boomer, but he is not, he was not old enough to be around when all this other stuff was happening. So, there is a good person there at Ohio State, but Binghamton's still the school it was when I was there, back in-
RS (02:31:30):
Let me think. I can tell you one final anecdote before you get off the bus. But that is another quote I should have given you. You are on the bus or you are off the bus.
SM (02:31:41):
Yes. Very good.
RS (02:31:44):
It is true.
SM (02:31:44):
Yeah. Definitely true.
RS (02:31:46):
You are off the bus.
SM (02:31:48):
Well, do you talk to Paul at all?
RS (02:31:52):
You send the emails constantly. I do not talk that much but we said we are in constant contact.
SM (02:31:58):
Good. Yeah. I just sent him a response to his Facebook message about, I thought it was the [inaudible] thing. Tell him I said hi. Tell him and Nancy I said hi.
RS (02:32:09):
He said he is getting off Facebook because there is just 5,000 friends he is never met.
SM (02:32:26):
I think what he is going to do, he is staying on Facebook, but he is going to cut the number down. I think that is what it is.
RS (02:32:26):
Well Saturday he told me he is getting off it, but I do not know. He could change his mind, but I am so happy to speak with you. It is been a pleasure.
SM (02:32:36):
It has been a pleasure here too.
RS (02:32:37):
Wish you a great deal of luck with your book, you are doing such a good thing.
SM (02:32:41):
Well, thank you very much. People like you and Paul and all the people that I have interviewed, I love that year that I grew up in, I obviously you do too. I feel fortunate that I was alive.
RS (02:32:55):
Well, I never left.
SM (02:32:56):
That is good.
RS (02:32:58):
Well, I will let you on the one final thing. Kesey came to the San Francisco area for a book tour. They drove the bus. This was not the original bus, but a new version of the bus from Oregon here. Outside the books in store at Hay Street, I went in, it was Kesey and a few other people, smoked a joint on the bus with Kesey. How about this? Oh, and then he tested a bottle of wine and he says before he drank, "it has lithium in it." Oh no. Hey, it could have been [inaudible 02:33:35]. Anyway, I am not going to regal you with stories, but I have been around as they say, and I have paid my dues and I have counter cultural Street cred.
SM (02:33:49):
Great.
RS (02:33:50):
Thanks Steve.
SM (02:33:50):
Thanks, you have a great day. Happy holidays to you.
RS (02:33:54):
Take care, Steve.
SM (02:33:54):
You bet, bye.
RS (02:33:55):
Bye.
(End of Interview)
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Rick Synchef
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Synchef, Rick ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Counterculture--United States--20th century; Historians; Synchef, Rick--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Rick Synchef is a counterculture collector and historian. He began collecting political paper and ephemera when he was an undergraduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison during the 1960s and 70s. Synchef consistently meets writers and obtains autographs for his large collection of books related to the 1960s.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-12-15
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.175a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.175b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.175c
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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153:58
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/05ae878377bee832e53426cdfb479636.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Elizabeth Holtzman
Date of Interview
2011-06-27
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
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79:14
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Ausio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Women's Rights Movement; political activism; equality in law school; Discrimination; Nineteen fifties; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Women's Rights Movement; political activism; equality in law school; Discrimination; Nineteen fifties; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.</span>
Subject LCSH
Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Holtzman, Elizabeth--Interviews
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Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Elizabeth Holtzman
Contributor
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Holtzman, Elizabeth ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Holtzman, Elizabeth--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2011-06-27
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.177
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
79:14
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Peggy Seeger, 1935-
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Peggy Seeger is an American folk singer. She founded the Critics Group and also sang and wrote about women's rights and other controversial topics with her husband. Seeger has published a collection of 150 of her songs from before 1998. She lived in the UK until 1994, then returned to the US and continued to sing about women's issues, teach, and produce music videos. Seeger went back to the UK and published her memoir, First Time Ever: A Memoir."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Peggy Seeger is an American folk singer. She founded the Critics Group and also sang and wrote about women's rights and other controversial topics with her husband. Seeger has published a collection of 150 of her songs from before 1998. She lived in the UK until 1994, then returned to the US and continued to sing about women's issues, teach, and produce music videos. Seeger went back to the UK and published her memoir, <em>First Time Ever: A Memoir</em>.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Hiroshima; Feminism; Activism; University; Black Death; Newt Gingrich; Thalidomide; England; Pete Seeger; WWII."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":1,"3":{"1":0}}">Vietnam War; Hiroshima; Feminism; Activism; University; Black Death; Newt Gingrich; Thalidomide; England; Pete Seeger; WWII.</span>
Subject LCSH
Folk singers; Women's rights; Seeger, Peggy, 1935--Interviews
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
105:58
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Peggy Seeger
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Seeger, Peggy, 1935- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Folk singers; Women's rights; Seeger, Peggy, 1935--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Peggy Seeger is an American folk singer. She founded the Critics Group and also sang and wrote about women's rights and other controversial topics with her husband. Seeger has published a collection of 150 of her songs from before 1998. She lived in the UK until 1994, then returned to the US and continued to sing about women's issues, teach, and produce music videos. Seeger went back to the UK and published her memoir, <em>First Time Ever: A Memoir</em>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.152a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.152b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
105:58
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Oral Histories
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
An account of the resource
In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Irene Gashurov
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-2018
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2018-12-21
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Fred Neil Peck
Year of Graduation
1966
Biographical Text
Fred Neil Peck of Long Island graduated from Harbor College in 1966 with a degree in biology, where he was actively involved in athletics and fraternity life. He later earned a master’s degree from SUNY Albany and a PhD in economics from NYU, reflecting a shift in his academic focus from the sciences to economics. Peck began his career at First Boston Corporation, where he provided economic forecasting and client services. He later transitioned into education, teaching at Hofstra University before moving into the New York City public school system, where he worked in Special Education Administration. He is married, has three sons, and resides in the New York City area.
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Fred Neil Peck
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 21 December 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
IG: 00:01
Okay, we are on.
FP: 00:03
Good morning. I am Fred Peck. I graduated from Harpur College in 1966. Uh, and I am sitting here with Irene Gashurov at the SUNY Global Center at 116 East 55th Street, Manhattan. I do not get into Manhattan quite as often as I used to. I spent 40 years commuting daily into Manhattan, and this is the first time in months that I have dealt with traffic on the FDR Drive. In any case, we are here to talk about my experience in the 1960s.
IG: 00:49
Very good, very good. Thank you for that introduction. So let us begin with the beginning. And so, where did you grow up?
FP: 00:58
Well, the beginning for me was the Brownsville section of Brooklyn. My family lived in by that time, already, century old, four story or five-story walk-up on Sterling Place near Howard Avenue in Brooklyn. But shortly thereafter, we moved into brand new, a brand-new home, a brand-new apartment building in Canarsie, where we lived for a few short years before moving to Long Island. So, I moved to Long Island at the age of seven. I have some memories of life from Brooklyn, but for the most part, I consider myself a Long Islander. I grew up from second grade through high school on Long Island, and my family lived there-
IG: 01:56
Where?
FP: 01:56
-many, many years in Hicksville, Hicksville, and today, I still have one sister. I have four sisters and a brother. One of my sisters still lives on Long Island. Another lives in Brooklyn. The rest of my family is scattered all over the country. I have a sister in Florida, a sister in California. My brother lives up in Massachusetts, but I remain a New Yorker, and I live in Rockland County, where I raised my family and commuted, as I say, into Manhattan for 40 years, for a couple of couple of Manhattan based careers. But I am a Long Islander. I grew up in Long Island. That is that, that is, that is.
IG: 02:39
So, tell me a little bit about your family. Were your family? Who were they? What did they do?
FP: 02:46
Well, my father was a small businessman. He was a butcher and owned a meat market, originally in Jackson Heights, Queens and-and then sold that business. And because he wanted to move to Long Island with his family, so he bought a shop in Massapequa, Massapequa Park. And throughout, you know, my-my youth, and right through college, graduate school, and what have you, he owned and ran that butcher shop. So, my brother and I go around telling people we were sobs, sons of butchers. In any case, yeah, we my family grew up, as I say, around that small business environment. It never occurred to me at the time, although I ultimately came to appreciate it that despite all of the aspects of running a small business successfully, that many people about which many people may be very unfamiliar, because you have got to do your own accounting, your own planning, your own marketing, and what have you. So, there is a lot that goes into it, besides the specifics of the skill of being a meat cutter, but he ran a successful business. But the key for me, that I discovered later on in life, was that his store, his business, was 15 minutes from his house. And my entire professional life, I never spent less than an hour and a half or so each way to and from work. I- so I came to really appreciate the fact that he wanted that he purchased the business close to where he wanted to live. But what that really meant, of course, was that when he left the house in the morning, we were already getting up and going to school, so we saw him in the morning. It meant that we had dinners together. He was always there in the evening. Uh so-so it really gave him a lot of time with his family. Now, my-my mother, my ours, is a sort of blended family. So, my mother passed away at a relatively young age. She was 41 years of age at that time, I had a brother and a sister. My father remarried and-and he and his wife had three additional daughters. So that is how I got three additional sisters. So a total of four sisters and a brother, um and-
IG: 05:39
So, four sisters and one brother. That is the entire family.
FP: 05:42
That is the entire family. The original family for me was my brother and sister, and then when he remarried, they had three additional sisters. Three half-sisters.
IG: 05:53
What was the expectation in your family about education and higher education?
FP: 05:57
Well, from a very early age, my mother, before she passed away, was very concerned about education. She herself had after-after graduating high school had gone on to, I guess, what you would have called Business College in those days, really secretarial and bookkeeping school. My father, on the other hand, kept in mind this was he was he matured in the 30s, depression, hard times. He left high school in order to get a job, in order to help support a family at a time when things were difficult, and there was an opportunity for him--take it or leave it. He was 16 years old. High school is high school. I can always go back to it. He never did my he was a bright fellow, but, but he never went back to finish high school. So, nevertheless, both he and my mother and my stepmother had expectations that all of their children would go to college and pursue education as a goal unto itself, as far as their interests and abilities would take them. So, I was we were never- the only pressure on us was you were in school--you might as well study and learn as much as you can and do as well as you can. But beyond that, there was never any pressure. Why are you still in graduate school? What is a PhD going to do for you? And why do not you go get a job that never entered the conversation? They were very-very supportive throughout now, as it turns out, and I am not sure specifically about each one of my siblings, but I know that my brother and I both went through school and graduate school with very little out-of-pocket expense. We all had scholarships and then later fellowships and that sort of thing. So, we were relatively fortunate. I think my parents did pay considerable sums for some of my sisters, but I do not think that was any lack of intelligence on their part. There was a there is a fairly wide spread in age, and by the mid (19)60s, funding for things like scholarships and what have you, became increasingly stingy, increasingly difficult to come by.
IG: 08:46
Even in the (19)60s.
FP: 08:48
Sure, by the late 60s, I mean, my brother and I both had region, New York Region scholarships as long as we went to a school within New York State, our tuition was paid for, period in those days. I mean, Harpur College tuition was, my memory serves, something on the order of $300 a year. And my-my Regent scholarship would have paid up to $750 a year for tuition, which would have been, you know, half the cost of Columbia University, for example. I mean, that is, and by the late (19)60s that started to wind down, or the eligibility became more difficult. I mean, there was a separate region scholarship examination at that time, and then later on, they switched to looking at the SATs, but-but getting funding to go to school for us turned out not to be an issue. Or my parents were not wealthy, but they would have funded our education. But turns out, it was not really necessary. I mean, room and board, if I am not mistaken, was around $500 a year. For a full 21 meal plan, 21 meals a week with a meal plan plus your room. So, my summers spent at a boy’s camp as a counselor paid for my room and board for the year. So-so the financial aspects of going to college did not in those days impose a burden, a significant burden on our family. We did not come out of school heavily in debt. Compare that to what goes on today. That was not, that was not the major criteria. The major criteria for whether you went to college in those days was whether you felt the desire to continue in school after high school, and whether it made sense to you from a career perspective, versus going to work when I graduated high school, went to work at Grumman Aircraft. I mean, there were manufacturing jobs, industries that were paying wonderful middle-class salaries, and you did not need a college degree. So.
IG: 11:08
Let us just backtrack to you know, so why did you decide on Harpur College rather than a local-
FP: 11:15
Okay. A lot of first of all, growing up on Long Island, the main local school was Hofstra University, Hofstra University private school. But at that time, it was a commuter school. There were no dorms [inaudible]
IG: 11:30
What about Stony Brook?
FP: 11:32
Well, Stony Brook was brand new. Stony Brook was maybe in 1963 when I when I went off to Binghamton, Stony Brook was an option, and many of my friends did opt that way. The major thing for me was too darn close to home. [laughs] I wanted to go further away. I knew I had to stay in New York State because I had my tuition paid for. But-but Stony Brook was just too close. I wanted to be off Long Island. I wanted to be far enough away that in an emergency, I could hop on a bus and get home. All my parents could get up to me, hopping in the car and 4.3,4, hours, but not 25 minutes away or half an hour away, that was, that is just too close.
IG: 12:23
Too close. So-so you decided on Harpur College. Did you think of other-
FP: 12:27
Yes. Well, in those days, I have three sons, so I went through this college application process with them, and it is conceivable my memory deceives me, but going through the process with them, I thought back to what it was like when I applied. And for them, they applied to dozens of schools. You know, they had a couple of areas of interest, and they looked into several schools that offered opportunities when I was in high school, my-my guidance counselor, first of all, again, my parents had no real experience with college, so they left it pretty much up to whatever the guidance counselor advised us. In those days, the standard recommendation was you pick a school in which you have an interest based on their programming and their location and what have you that may just be out of reach in terms of your academic standing, you may have a chance, but you reach for this guy, pick the school you would most likely choose to go to and then pick a safe school, because you want to be in school. You want to make sure you are going to be accepted. So that was the advice. So, I applied to three schools.
IG: 13:51
Which were they?
FP: 13:52
Well, now I applied to Queens College, which was half an hour in the other direction, but I had relatives living in Queens. I easily established New York City resident. It would have been a commuter school and but I could have established New York City residents would have, which would have meant that tuition was free in any case, so my reach of scholarship would have been irrelevant. I would have been living at home, but based on their admissions standards. It was a shoe, and it was a safe school for me. When I graduated high school, I finished well, top-top 5 percent of the class, not as big a deal as I said in those days. It was not that important to focus on your academics. I mean, we had a third of our class were in vocational programs in high school. So, a different time.
IG: 14:47
Also, Hicksville was a different kind of place, right? It was-
FP: 14:50
Hicksville is a blue-collar, middle blue-collar to middle class range, not a particularly wealthy community. Good school-school district, but not-not-not Scarsdale. So, but for me, getting into Queens College was a breeze. Columbia University would have been the reach. And because I wanted to, you know, picked an ivy and where was I going to go to New Jersey, go to Princeton, go-go-go to Connecticut and go to Yale, Rhode Island, go to Brown, New Hampshire, go to Dartmouth, Harvard, Boston. And then it would become expensive, and then it would have been a financial burden on my parents. So, Columbia was my reach school, you might say. And in doing some research, Harpur College, there was no Binghamton University. There was no university SUNY Binghamton, Harpur College happened to be located in the City of Binghamton. Well, actually Vestal. But they were going to experiment. Number one, it had a reputation as being a challenging school. My teachers might remember an AP Bio, my teacher said to me, "You know, if you go to Harpur, you are going to work harder than you then you will if you go to Columbia." That is what he said.
IG: 14:51
Really?
FP: 15:36
So, and being the competitive sort that I am, that immediately intrigued me. Number one. Number two, it would have cost my parents nothing between-between my personal savings, my summer work, and my scholarship; I was going to go to school for nothing. Colombia would have been expensive. And most especially, I selected it over a variety of schools, both State University and other upstate schools, because I was look- it is amazing why the letter H pops up. But I was looking at Hamilton, I was looking at Hobart. I was looking, you know, yeah, and Harpur-Harpur was going to start that summer with something called a trimester, so right after I graduated high school, I could immediately start college right after July 4.
IG: 15:39
I see, I see.
FP: 15:41
And not have to spend a summer at home. That appeals to me, get out of the house immediately. Remember it was, it was kind of crowded, and I was anxious to get it to get away. So, although the- for many trimesters was the only way they were going to get in, because in order to fill up three semesters and more fully utilize resources, it also meant quickly expanding the freshman class. So, standards were lowered somewhat. So, for many students, that might have been the only way they were going to get into Harpur.
IG: 17:58
But it is also quicker, right? You finish your degree?
FP: 18:01
Well, that depends on the student. You had the option of selecting two out of the three trimesters per year and take the full four years to finish your eight trimesters or eight semesters. I went straight through. I went straight through. I graduated in three years.
IG: 18:18
Yeah.
FP: 18:19
I graduated in three years I went straight through that is because I was having too much fun.
IG: 18:26
So, what were your first impressions?
FP: 18:30
Well, Harpur College is a relatively small school.
IG: 18:32
Yes.
FP: 18:33
When I when I got to Harpur, there were 400 students in the total freshman class of all three semesters, it was total fresh. There was a total undergraduate student body of 1600 students. There were 200 graduate students. That was the entire campus--other than the the-the gym, now the East gym, but at the time it was the gym and Newing dining hall, the old Newing dining hall, and, of course, the service buildings.
IG: 19:09
Where do you mean the service building?
FP: 19:10
Oh, there was a steam generator and what have you. Other than those, those were the only structures outside the brain, the entire school, all the dorms, all of the academic buildings, administration and the library, the Student Union, which in those times, at that time, was called the Student Center, was all contained within the brain. So, it was a compact school. It was a compact school, and it was a small school, so easy to get around, easy to know everybody, easy to be very involved in in school life that appealed to me greatly when I visited.
IG: 19:50
Did you have an idea of what you wanted to study?
FP: 19:53
Oh yes, that is the other thing about growing up in a family where you are the first generation to go to college is that there are no there are some preconceived notions, but they are rather silly--born of just simply not knowing. So, from my father's perspective, it is wonderful that you are going to college, you are going to be a physician.
IG: 20:15
Right. Of course.
FP: 20:16
Unless, of course, you cannot cut it. We know that that happens, in which case you will end up being a dentist. It is also the case that once you get into college, even though you were interested in the sciences in high school, it is possible that when you go to college, you may find yourself drifting off to the social sciences. So, you become an attorney. And again, if you cannot get options, you cannot. Well, if you cannot get into law school, you end up becoming an accountant, and we will forgive you, right? That is it, that is it, that is it. So-so, the world opens up when you particularly in a liberal arts framework, the whole world of opportunities that you did not even know existed opens up- Harpur College. Remember the 1960s was a decade of transition from what you might call old school technology in higher education to the new student driven programming. When I entered, there were rigid programmatic requirements. You were required to have a minor, which consisted of 12 credits or more in each of the major segments of the undergraduate program, Social Sciences, you had to have a minor in somewhere in the social sciences. In the humanities, you had to have a minor in the humanities, somewhere in the humanities and the natural sciences, you had to have a minor in the natural sciences, one of those would become your major. So, I mean, these were programmatic. Then on top of that, there were very specific course requirements for all incoming freshmen. Lit 101 and 102, Lit and Literature and Composition, 101, 102 required. Social studies, 101 was required. U, a 101, 102 two semester sequences in one of the natural sciences could have been biology, could have been chemistry, could have been physics could have been geology could have been psychology, because the psychology program at Harpur was experimental psychology, and it was in the science program. So those were requirements, and you got your when you entered, you got your course catalog, and you were told in the get go, this is the course catalog in which you are entering, your graduation requirements are from this catalog. There may be changes over the course of your time at Harpur in terms of requirements and what have you. You may opt for any newer set of requirements and or courses, but you will always be guaranteed that what you pick from this catalog will apply by the time you graduate.
IG: 23:25
And you understood all of that?
FP: 23:28
We received help in understanding it. Yes, our advisors were very clear this was important Harpur College graduate. The intention was that if you came to Harpur College, you were going to graduate from Harpur College. Harpur College. We do not, we do not do dropouts. That that would, that was, that was the message, it turns out, obviously, but, but the expectation was they were going to get you through, as long as you put in the effort you have been accepted, and as long as you put in the time and energy you are going to get through.
IG: 24:02
So, what you were some of the so what were some of the surprises to you from the courses that took and-
FP: 24:11
The biggest, the biggest surprise right off the bat, like after the first week-- again, I did very well in high school. I was top of my class very first week. Every single one of these people is just like me. They were all bright. They are all bright. The dumbest I could be the dumbest one in the class. Could be the smartest? There is not that much of a spread, or at least not noticeable. I mean, there were some brilliant people, but you would not necessarily notice it, because we were all bright. We all understood the teachers were saying. We were all able to read these classic texts and develop our skills at the exposition and the evaluation, to be sure, but-but it was, you know, it was mind blowing at the time to realize you were at the top of the class here in the middle at best. And as it turns out, I graduated near the bottom of my class. I graduated near the bottom of my class graduated on top, but out of, I think 404 students, or something like that, in my graduating class. You know, I may have been 50 from the bottom, 60 from the bottom, something like that.
IG: 25:37
That is No, you know, academic success is irrelevant.
FP: 25:41
It was irrelevant. It was irrelevant. The Graduate Schools loved it. Binghamton by the time I graduated, the school had such a reputation I had no problem getting to grad school.
IG: 25:50
So, what were some of the academic the intellectual surprises that maybe opened your thinking, opened your mind, you know, your perception of the world that you had not.
FP: 26:00
Well, let us put it this way, I entered as a biology major with the intention of going to medical school. I ended up graduating as a biology major simply because I had too many credits to walk away from it, but had a heavier than required minor in economics, and went to graduate school in economics, became an economist, never even heard of the study of economics. Never occurred to me that there was actually a theory to describe how markets, manual, produce and distribute and how and price theory and production theory, I mean, that never occurred to me. Sociology, I had heard of growing up in Samoa. I knew who Margaret Mead was when I was in high school, but I had never read it never occurred to me in a million years. It was actually an academic discipline of sociology, of studying the development and-and growth of societies and differences and what philosophy? What is philosophy? As I said, you had to have a minor in the humanities. For me, humanities, I mean, yeah, I understood taking Literature and Composition, yeah, I understood that I had to read these classic texts, okay, I had heard of Plato, so now I am reading the Republic, wonderful, yeah, okay, I knew that Socrates had, you know, had poisoned him the self under, you know, in lieu of public execution, Hemlock and-and now I am reading, you know, a third hand report of his teachings that, that sort of thing I, you know, and Dante. I mean, I guess I had heard of the Divine Comedy and what have you. But I high school. We did not, we did not read those texts.
IG: 28:01
And you found all of this very engrossing or? What did you-
FP: 28:06
I loved it. I was reading things that people have been reading for 1000 years, and suddenly it occurred to me, perhaps my 20th century perspective was going to glean from these texts something very different than someone than a Roman reading a Greek text.
IG: 28:30
Of course.
FP: 28:31
But I am reading in translation and later on, learning that those translation differences do make a difference. Nevertheless, I had my hand on history in a way that I did not even know existed or was possible. I-I was not a very worldly high school at the time. [crosstalk] So-so that philosophy, well, I will admit that you had to take a philosophy class, and I cheated as a science major. I took logic. Logic is mathematics, but itis philosophy, and so I avoided some of the more challenging philosophical classes, you know, I took Intro, I mean, I read, particularly in the Age of Enlightenment, Hume, Lock and Mills and what have you. By the way, that was what really got me into economics. It was, I did take Intro to economics, Paul Samuelson's text was the was the basis for that, for that class, but I never would have occurred to me to ultimately build a career around the study of economics until I did that intro philosophy class which I read those-those texts.
IG: 30:03
And what were the ideas, the seminal ideas that opened up this field for you, what did you find so entrancing? Do you remember?
FP: 30:17
For me, it was not about studying economics per se. Was not about studying markets. Was not specifically about studying theories of production or distribution. It was an approach or a discipline, to the study of human beings, to the study of humanity a particular aspect of their behavior. And you know, as a scientist, primarily, my way of thinking really required me to look at things which normally do not fall under the realm of the sciences per se, but with a scientific, disciplined approach, and economics provided that vehicle for me to study populations, to study people. A sociologists, core of you know what it is that they are studying the-the object of their study, but from a from a different approach, different set of tools to study the same behavior and characteristics of people, because I suddenly realized that I wanted to know more about what makes me think, about what makes the world think, about why life in one country is different than in another, one era in time is different than another, and there are a lot of things that account for those differences, but studying different time periods, different nations, different populations through the lens of economics provided one perspective that appealed to me and helped to explain for me why things happen the way they do, and how history unfolded the way it did, and-
IG: 32:13
It is a framework from which to see the world.
FP: 32:17
Yes.
IG: 32:17
-see certain phenomena.
FP: 32:18
That is exactly that, and that is what intrigued me, that is what led me on to them, and that all worked wonderfully right through the completion of my graduate studies, right until I started-
IG: 32:29
[inaudible] to excuse me.
FP: 32:30
Of course, graduation, I had to redesign my program to accommodate this new found desire, this new found course of study that was not really going to fit in with my major and still make sure I had enough time to finish up all of the requirements that I needed in my major. So that became a little bit tricky. I ended up graduating with about eight credits more than was required for graduation, just to make sure that I had enough in my major as well as fulfill my interests. And that was the other thing that was wonderful about going to a state university at the time and again. I do not really know what it is like today, but at the time you paid your tuition, you were required to take, to be a full-time student a minimum of 12 credits a semester. The recommended number was 16 credits a semester. But with your, with your advisor's permission, you could take as many as 20 credits in a semester. 18 was not unusual for a science major, because there were a lot of two credit lab classes that you could add on and amend to append to a four-credit science class. Science classes tended to be four credits. Fact, I think most classes were four credits. They were very intense. They were very long, and they met at least three times a week. So it was, it was pretty pretty-pretty intense academic preparation for whatever you chose to do when you when you graduated from Harpur College, I felt that when I graduated from Harpur College, and I believe this is true of everyone I knew, you were well grounded in the world of scholarship in the world of academia.
IG: 34:48
{phone rings] I am listed as a pizza shop cross-listed it as a Domino's Pizza. So-
FP: 35:04
[laughs] That is a funny story there that I am going to interject right now, since you, since you raised it, my-my first post postdoctoral-
IG: 35:22
Where did you go for-
FP: 35:23
NYU-NYU and I worked a-
IG: 35:27
Very good economics program.
FP: 35:29
Well, it was at the GBA at the Graduate School of Business Administration, now called the Stern-Stern School. And-and then I, and I was working at-at the First Boston Corporation investment banking firm. It is now Credit Suisse, First Boston and-and I had an office telephone. I do not recall precisely the number, but the area code was 212, and then the number. The number was the admissions department for UCLA, but there it is area code, 202 not 212, so here in one small digit in the area code, in the middle between twos, I got a lot of calls from prospective students asking to have application materials and catalogs and what have you sent to them?
IG: 36:29
You cannot be really rude.
FP: 36:30
[inaudible] Please-please redial. But this time you miss, dialed you. You dialed 212, New York City, please dial 202. [crosstalk] And whether it was students or their parents or their parents or guidance counselors, it really did not matter. I was not going to be rude. I thought it was humorous, and had my number change [crosstalk]. But so with regard to your Domino's story, in any case, yeah, everyone I knew, and I suspect to a certain extent, everyone who graduated in those days had a very well grounded, well-well informed base of-of academics that prepared them for professional school, graduate school, or any other continuation in formal learning, on the one hand, but on the other hand, despite the and we will get to this In a moment, because I know the really important part of this conversation is going to be about what life was like in the (19)60s, and in particular (19)60s at Harpur or on a college campus generally, but there was this overarching sense that the college stood in logo parentis, that is, they had a responsibility to guide us in much the same way our parents might. We really did not have quite as much independence as we thought we would, or that college students have today, and maybe more than there was more overt control over our daily lives and what have you. Then was even appropriate at the time and would certainly not fly today. And if anything, that would have been the one limiting factor on just how ready we were to enter the real world. Because once you step off into the real world, there is nobody looking out for you. Your decisions are yours. Nevertheless, the path on which all of that guidance placed you really did prepare you for the world. People could step out of school and they were ready to go to work. They-they had worked hard. You worked hard. You studied people-people. There were some dropouts, but there were also some transfers in. That is why the graduating class was the same size as the even a little bit larger than the entering freshman class, because we had transfers in as-as people moved out, or as people, people transferred, people dropped out, or they transferred to other schools. A good friend of mine after, after we completed freshman year, actually, I think it was three semesters, three trimesters. He decided he did not like being away from home. He was also a long Islander. He transferred back to Hofstra, which at time, at that time was a commuter school, because he wanted to be at home. He could not, he could not handle living away from-from home. It was a very personal thing. Everybody was a little bit different, but academically, I never regretted for a moment my-my liberal arts education number one, and the fact that I got it at Harpur College, so much so that I am intensely proud of the fact that my middle son is a legacy student. Followed in dad's footsteps, he-he has two degrees from Binghamton. He-he has a Bachelor of Arts in Physics from Harpur and a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering from Watson. He also has a PhD from MIT, but it is just a statement about the quality of preparation. Students who graduate from Binghamton are ready to do anything that is that is my opinion.
IG: 40:32
Do you have any outstanding professors, or?
FP: 40:35
Yeah, there were, there were a few professor Battin, Biology stood out as being a fabulous professor. Professor Norcross, my Organic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry the brain for all bio for brain for all science majors who choose to take it. Norcross, great professor. I remember him. There were what is his name. I had a professor whose name escapes me now. I took physics with him in his first-year teaching at Binghamton at Harpur, my son, 40 years later, took physics with him in his last year before retirement.
IG: 41:30
Is not that nice? You truly do have a history.
FP: 41:32
So, that that was that that was astounding. And I with him, I took three semesters to two semesters physics, one and two, and then astronomy. I took astronomy with him as well. And of course, my-my fondest memories I mentioned earlier, I had too much fun. My fondest memories are down at the gym, my coaches, I-I was on I earn three-three letters at home soccer, swimming and track. Soccer coach Tim Shum, who I see every year at homecoming, and he and I worked jointly on recent fundraising campaign leading up to-to homecoming this fall, we did a major telephone marathon contacting former student athletes. But I have also become very close with Paul Marco, who's the current soccer coach, my swim coach, Dave Thomas, he retired many years ago, and my track coach, Stan Lyons, who left Binghamton to go to Butler. He passed away, but-but I remember them, of course, fondly and-and I did have some wonderful professors whose names have long since escaped me, or had a great German professor, oh, foreign language was required. I mean, it was just, it was a liberal arts education, and there were requirements. And so, I had to take two years, two semesters of German. His last name was Schmidt. I was not very good. I did not really have a good ear for foreign languages. I had to work very hard at it. He was a wonderful professor, and his approach to teaching introduction to German was, this is Goethe. You have to read Faust in German, and you will learn the German that is required by the syllabus from German literature, not from some grammar text.
IG: 43:43
So, did he teach you language through reading?
FP: 43:48
Through, primarily through reading. It was not a conversational class, so, but-but his approach, and there was grammar. I mean, we learned declinations and what have you I mean, we learned what you-you had to learn but-but his approach made it interesting. It was not just learning by road, it was learning by you want to know what happened next, you were going to have to translate it. So-so I remember him, and I had some wonderful teachers in all of the subjects that I had, and I had some professors, teachers who were less thrilling. Never had a bad teacher. Never had anybody I disliked. Even the administration and I had a personal relationship with s students, Stuart Gordon, who was the Dean of Students. And um, there was a small flooding incident in Champlain Hall, and I was an innocent bystander, but was a witness to how it all came about, and so I developed this relationship. I was in his office, along with a number of other students. We went through the whole judicial process, and I but even there, I mean, even Glen G. Bartle, they love students. They love being college administrators.
IG: 45:34
You knew Mr. Bartle? Dr. Bartle, yeah. What was he like?
FP: 45:38
Dr. Bartle, he was a geologist, number one. So, he was a scientist.
IG: 45:42
You know that the library is named after him.
FP: 45:43
Of course, I know that I was there when they built the tower.
IG: 45:47
So, what was he like? I idea that he was a real person. [crosstalk]
FP: 45:53
And, oh, he was more than just a real person. He was an academician of the first order. He had contacts, he was able to attract to this new State University, liberal arts college in the midst of a burgeoning state university system known for normal schools. I mean, these were teachers’ colleges all over the state, Oneonta, Fredonia and Geneseo and Brockport and Plattsburgh and Potsdam [inaudible] Harpur, and it is just one of those. Well, no, it is not one of those. And he made sure that the world came to know that, and he had a lot of contacts, and was able to attract some incredible talent to-to the school that you would not ordinarily expect.
IG: 46:41
I have heard, I have heard that Harpur College profited from the exodus of German scholars in the (19)30s.
FP: 46:52
Well-
IG: 46:52
{inaudible] one of these?
FP: 46:56
He certainly spoke with a German accent. So, he could have been but I do not know. I do not know. I will tell you that Glenn Bartle was a very strait-laced academician. So, in that one year, just before I arrived, I believe it was 1962 we did not have national fraternities that were not permitted on any of the state university campuses at that time. So, there were no Greek fraternities, but we did have local fraternities. We call them men social clubs, men's social clubs, women's social clubs. I was a member of ADPhi [Alpha Delta Phi] men's Social Club, and Marty Greenberg was also a member of ADPhi. He is a member of the Hall of Fame. Of course, a number of a number of our members, went on to academic success at Harpur, but he was a standout. And I believe Frank Pollard was the basketball coach, and Marty was on the team. I think it was 1962 I heard this story when I when I pledged the frat and-and they were supposed to go to a post season.
IG: 48:11
What does that mean?
FP: 48:13
The NCAA tournament after the season is over, the best teams in your division get invited to these post season tournaments. And Harpur College, I mean, this is big time basketball for a small-time college, and Glen Bartle refused to allow the team to go because it was finals week.
IG: 48:40
How did you feel about that?
FP: 48:41
I did not have feelings since I heard this third hand. I was not a student at the time. You would have to ask Marty Greenberg how he felt about it, but I happened to know him, and no, he did not think very highly of the decision and but it is more about Glenn Bartle than it is about the specifics of that incident, academics and an education and building the academic reputation of this institution was paramount. So, in any case, yeah, it was fitting when they built the tower that they ultimately at the time it was just called the faculty tower.
IG: 49:28
Was he approachable, Dr. Bartle?
FP: 49:33
That depends, that depends on some students. For some students, everybody is approachable? I could not give a darn who you are. I remember when Nelson Rockefeller was on campus, and I walked over and said, "Hey, Rocky." And I just-
FP: 49:47
Absolutely. The thing you have to realize when I went to college and period we are talking about now. The drinking age in New York State was 18. The voting age was 21 that, of course, got switched later on in the aftermath of Vietnam War, the complaints about these youngsters who are old enough to die for their country, but not old enough to vote. So, the voting age was dropped to 18. Meanwhile, most states have drinking ages of 21 New York, therefore attracted a lot of young people across the borders from New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Connecticut. They would get drunk in New York and then drive home and get killed on the way. So ultimately, federal highway funds were threatened. Then New York raised the drinking age to 21 so today, the drinking age is 21 the voting age is 18. I will not address the drinking age question, but I will tell you that. I mean, I think itis valuable that 18-year-old have the vote. Unfortunately, it is not so valuable that they do not use it. So, there I
s a huge educational aspect there that needs to be to get younger.
IG: 49:48
Are you serious?
IG: 51:11
You were approached Nelson Rockefeller and called him, "Hey Rocky," that that tells me a lot about your personality.
FP: 51:18
Oh, I yeah, I am an extrovert and-and I and I am not star struck particularly well. I, first of all, I was admirer of people in power. I did not really know enough about the ins and outs at that time of New York State Government. Before I got my doctorate at NYU. I got a master's degree at Al- in Albany. I went to the Graduate School of Public Affairs, which is at the State University of New York at Albany. That was, that was my immediate move out of Binghamton. And when I was there in this, they did not have trimester two semesters. In fact, Binghamton dropped trimester right after I graduated as well. But while I was in Albany, I spent my summers working for the joint legislative committee on legislative fiscal analysis and review, which was, you know, at that time, the Alfred E Smith office building. And I worked directly for Perry Duryea, who was the long-time speaker of the New York State Assembly. He also happened to be the one who represented us on Long Island. Well, he was a Long Island representative. He was not the only one, but he was from Long Island. So that gave us a connection, you might say. So, I had already-
IG: 52:46
You had such great opportunities, you know, to have [crosstalk]
FP: 52:49
Anybody who came out of Harpur College in those days, if they chose to, would be given those opportunities on a silver platter. That was the reputation of the school. When my high school teacher said you were going to work harder at Harpur than you would at Columbia. A, it was true, from what I have heard. B, the rest of the world seems already, at that time, to become aware of the quality of the students that were coming out, and that these were students who were going to do well in whatever opportunities you give them. So yes, I had internships and that sort of thing. Then that other-other might have died for coming out of other schools, I do not know, but I was very fortunate. But having-
FP: 53:35
When did you do these internships? If you had [crosstalk]
FP: 53:41
I was in graduate school.
IG: 53:43
You were in graduate school. Right.
FP: 53:46
Yes.
IG: 53:46
I see. In Albany?
FP: 53:48
Yes.
IG: 53:49
These internships are in Albany.
FP: 53:51
Yes.
IG: 53:54
You mentioned, I just wanted to backtrack a little bit to your Harpur days. You mentioned that you know you were having too much fun
FP: 54:02
Yes.
IG: 54:03
So, tell me a little bit about that. Where would you go? Where-
FP: 54:06
First-first trimester allowed me to compete on three different athletic teams, because each one of them was confined to a particular trimester. So, we had a short soccer season that ended in November rather than December, because that was the start of the next trimester. The swimming season was only half of a trimester because the rest of the academic, academic world did not start the swim season until after the Christmas break. That was halfway through us our trimester already, but that is when swim season started, but it ended at the beginning of the spring trimester. Spring trimester was track season, and so I was able to participate in in three varsity teams. That is something that cannot be done today. Well, it is also the case that they were division three teams. I could not, I would not at my peak, I would never have made-made the first ring varsity of any of the Binghamton University teams today in Division one. These are fabulous athletes, but-but it created opportunities to travel to other schools. It did involve a lot of training and a lot of time down at the gym, and I made a lot of friends that way. And so that was one aspect of having too much fun. Another aspect of having too much fun revolved around the social club, local fraternity, whatever you want to call it. And there was Friday nights at Swats, the downtown Sullivan's tavern, or at or in those days on in Johnson City, I forget the name of the road, but it is where the mall is. At the end of the road, you go over the Fred C Johnson, Fred C Johnson, Fred Johnson. C Fred Johnson bridge in into Johnson City. And there used to be a traffic circle there and off. And the first exit was Riverside Drive heading into Binghamton. The second exit was Floral Avenue, and the third exit took you on what now it continues to be 201, whatever it is to the mall over there, yes, and that mall directly across the street from it, the Wegmans on the one side, on the other side, those motels and the Friendlies and what have you all of that was these large industrial buildings. When I was there huge industrial complex that was the Endicott Johnson shoe factory.
FP: 54:53
That is right, that is right, the famous Endicott Johnson shoe factory.
FP: 56:49
Yes. and right down the road, as you might imagine, from any factory, with a row of pubs and taverns, where at five o'clock whistle workers would come out, and that would be their stop before heading home. It was also a Friday night stop for fraternity.
IG: 57:07
How would you get there? By-
FP: 57:09
Well, what happened there are, there were no-no blue busses. That is the Binghamton blue busses that take you all over. Now that did not exist, but there were city busses. So, there was a bus to Johnson City, but it went up Floral Avenue and dropped you off at whatever that road is, which becomes oak that goes all the way into Binghamton. Yeah, Oak Street, whatever that street is that goes into being by the by the Truman gate. That is as far as the bus would take you. And you could take a bus into Binghamton. These were city busses. But I would say that out of the 20 or 30 guys who were in the club, there were probably five or six automobiles. So, if you were available, you would all pour-pour into those, and we would go. By the time I was a junior, I had a car as well. My father gave me an automobile, 1960 Plymouth, sport fury. I love that car. Why? Because it was the first my first car. Everybody loves their first car anyway. And Kenny Bloom had had a car. I remember one of my fraternity brothers and-and so we would go again, 18 years of age. Was the drinking age. It was a dry campus. There was a period of time. Shortly after I left Binghamton, I was in graduate school in Albany. And when I returned, there was a guest lecture that I came for. And we came down, Roy Harrod, Sir Roy Harrod was giving a lecture at Binghamton. And we drove down from Albany. Roy Harrod is a world famous he may be, not sure it could be a Nobel Prize winner, one of the early ones, or certainly should have been, but one of the most wide, highly the in the era of John Maynard Keynes and John Hicks, world famous economists, right up there with Paul Samuelson and Robert Solow and these guys, and-and he was giving a lecture and-and, so-so we came down to hear that lecture, and I and there was a rathskeller-ratskeller, that was serving beer on the campus, and, I think. And remember, the drinking age was still 18, so my dry campus was no longer dry. That I do not know how long that lasted, but-
IG: 59:53
That is one of the changes of the later (19)60s.
FP: 59:58
That-that would have been late (19)60s or early (19)70s. Yes, I would have been like 1968. (19)69 I am guessing.
IG: 1:00:08
So, did you see, you know, the climate change while you were well campus, and when you returned to there from-
FP: 1:00:19
The climate began to change- the first thing you need to know, if you walk around Binghamton University today, there is a lot of construction going on. When I arrived in July of 1963 there was a lot of construction going on from July of 1963 when I arrived, and I am told by those who preceded me, starting in 1959 when they first broke ground for the gym, to today. There has been a lot of construction.
FP: 1:00:43
Eternal construction.
FP: 1:00:57
Forever.
IG: 1:00:58
Yes, it is like, it is what they say about St John the Divine, the cathedral on the Upper West Side, that it is, it is, you know, eternal, in an eternal state of construction. So is Harpur-
FP: 1:01:13
Absolutely-absolutely.
IG: 1:01:15
Binghamton campus.
FP: 1:01:15
Yes. So, I am going to tell you a few of the things that have changed dramatically that actually influenced the way we lived at the time versus today, and contributed to some of the traditions. But it was a dry it was a dry campus at that time, and we all lived in a small group of about and it was eight dormitories in total, four men and four women. Women had a curfew.
IG: 1:01:51
That is right, that is right.
FP: 1:01:53
Women had a curfew, if I am not mistaken, it was 10 o'clock during the week and Friday and Saturday nights, midnight. And there was a card system. You checked in with your cards, and you checked out, and you move your card from the inbox to the outbox. And any, anybody, any visitors, male visitors, picking you up for a date or what have you would have to check in at the front desk, and then they would check the card to make sure you were there. Then they would call the young lady down, and you had to have her back in time to move her card from the outbox back to the inbox. And what have you did?
IG: 1:02:34
Did male students have the same restrictions?
FP: 1:02:36
No. There were no restrictions. You came and went as you wished. That is exactly right. So that is and we did have on Sunday afternoons open dorm visitation, three feet on the floor.
IG: 1:03:02
I have heard about that.
FP: 1:03:06
So, the and doors open, obviously. And we did not have suites, though. These were all dorm style hall and nothing co-ed. But when I arrived, the first of the dormitory buildings outside of the brain were under construction, and Bingham and Endicott Hall, which surrounded New England dining hall, were the first dorms open, and I was among the first group of students to move across the brain into Bingham Hall. So I was that very first resident in Bingham Hall. But think about for a moment. You know, 1600 students on campus. Maybe 150 or 200 of those undergraduates lived off campus and commuted. Everybody else lived on campus. That is so that social club, that fraternity, we all lived on campus when we had our weekly meetings, it was in one of the rooms in the student center that we had so there was no off-campus activity. It was a dry campus. I mean, think about a fraternity, and think about what fraternity life would be like under those circumstances, where you have maybe half a dozen automobiles once a week, you could get everybody together to go for a beer or something. But for the most part, life for this fraternity was on campus or to revolve-
IG: 1:04:43
It was a dry campus.
FP: 1:04:44
It was a dry campus, so our fraternity activities revolved around athletics, including into a big presence on the intramural athletics. The intramural athletics were more important to most students than the intercollegiate athletics. Today, equivalent today would be correct, football, for example, on the Binghamton campus. But in those days, softball league, soccer leagues, and all of these inter band, basketball, intramural teams dominated the life of the social clubs. That was where the social clubs competed, and what have you, shows, talent shows, that sort of thing what is now the Mandela room in the old student center. That room was originally a mini theater.
IG: 1:05:29
There was a radio station.
FP: 1:05:31
Yes, there was a radio station WHU something, something and but it was not an FM station. It was broadcast on campus only. You had to be in a campus building with it or within-within the confines you know that the signal was focused on-on the campus, we had our newspaper, which was the Colonial News. It was ultimately changed to the Pipe Dream because somebody objected to the word colonial thinking that it means the same thing as a colonialist, whereas it really referred to colonist John Harpur for who the school was named. But-but I, like I will not complain about that. I was a colonial on the athletic teams, but I am proud to be a bear cat. So-so I do not get, I do not get there are certain traditions worthy of change, and I really do not have any-any problem with that at all. But life in the fraternity was focused around the campus life and athletics was focused around training and what have you. And then there was political life on the campus, and that revolved around the student center board, which was the precursor for the Student Association ESA. Student Center board then became ESA later, and I was on the student center board, dorm rep, and with specific responsibility for helping to put on shows. We had a winter weekend and a spring weekend. These were big events, and we brought in talent to put-
IG: 1:07:13
Who did you bring [inaudible]?
FP: 1:07:13
-on a big concert. I will we-we had the Mitchell Trio. Right after John Mitchell retired, it used to be the not John Mitchell, Chad Mitchell, Chad Mitchell retired. So, they kept the name the Mitchell trio. They dropped the chat, and his replacement singer was a young singer by the name of John Denver. So, we had John Denver and the Mitchell Trio. We had Lambert [Dave Lambert], Hendricks [Jon Hendricks] and Bavan [Yolande Bavan] great jazz singers. We had some of the big duo groups, the Drifters, (19)50s and early (19)60s, Simon and Garfunkel.
FP: 1:08:00
They were there?
FP: 1:08:00
But you are talking about they had one hit. They were brand new. You know that that-
IG: 1:08:06
Was your- what was your first hit? Do you remember?
FP: 1:08:10
The first one that I ever heard from them was Silence- Sounds of Silence.
IG: 1:08:13
Oh, is that what they performed? Did you see them perform?
FP: 1:08:16
Yes. Yes.
IG: 1:08:16
And how was, how was that?
FP: 1:08:18
Well, again, they were not superstars.
IG: 1:08:20
They were not superstars.
FP: 1:08:21
We could never have afforded any superstars. Five years after we had John Denver, there never, ever been able to get him again. Three years after we had Simon and Garfunkel, never been able to touch them again. You know, I remember, but it was, remember, the period was the early (19)60s, 1960 mid (19)60s. I got there in (19)63 I left in (19)66 that was, that was the three-year British invasion. So, all the music that we would have wanted to bring to campus-
IG: 1:09:00
Was not, was not available.
FP: 1:09:02
You could not get the Beatles or the Rolling Stones.
IG: 1:09:06
Was not folk. But you really-
FP: 1:09:09
We did have folk singers. We did have folk singers trying to remember, I think we had Buffy Sainte-Marie. We had, you know, some folk we did not get Peter, Paul and Mary, but we did a Buffy Sainte-Marie. I tried to remember-
IG: 1:09:26
Is not, you know, Simon and Garfunkel out of that tradition? I mean [crosstalk]
FP: 1:09:30
They may have been, they may have been out of that tradition. I do not know. I do not know how I would categorize. [crosstalk]
IG: 1:09:35
So let us talk about, let us talk about Sir Rock came to the fore and with it. You know, social change, political change. How alive were you?
FP: 1:09:46
When I got to Binghamton? The-the civil rights movement was the way we defined the Civil Rights Movement looking back on the 1960s from today's perspective, was still in its infancy. There had not been the Detroit riots, Watts and the huge social unrest and social consciousness raising aspects of the civil rights movement, we were concerned about freedom riders being harassed in Mississippi, the death of three students marching the, you know, the fire hoses and dogs and what have you. We were there at the very beginning of the forced integration. Estes Kefauver, Little Rock and and-and, of course, the Old Miss opening its doors to Meredith [James Meredith]. I mean, that was the beginning. But remember, I got there in July of 1963 we took a bus to Washington in August of 1963 we were parked behind-behind I was standing for Martin Luther King. And who was not he-he-he is what everybody remembers for that, from that, what march on Washington because of that incredible speech. But he was not the headliner. We were there because Mahalia Jackson and so many others were going to be performing and what have you. And there were politicians talking about this, and the whole National Mall, from the Lincoln Memorial, where they were going to be speaking, all the way to the Washington Monument. Well, remember the-the Library of Congress is located behind the Capitol building, behind and where and where we are parked there, from the Capitol to the Washington Monument, packed with people. You could not move from the Washington Monument, the reflecting pool completely surrounded. Then mobs of people in front of the Lincoln Memorial, where these speeches are being made. Loudspeakers all over the place, but the truth of the matter is, did not hear a thing. Did not hear a thing, got off the bus in the midst of packing crowds-
IG: 1:12:31
Probably swept up with the fervor, with the- no?
FP: 1:12:35
It was an event. It was it was a road trip adventure.
IG: 1:12:38
It was a road trip.
FP: 1:12:39
It was a road trip adventure. Yes, I thought that the fact that an entire race could be deprived of basic civil rights that I took for granted was horrific. Yes, I absolutely believe that how far out on a limb was I going to go to do something about that I did not have a vote. I was not going to parade up and down streets carrying a placard and have firemen of fire hoses at me. There are plenty of people who will. Okay, so, but I was, I was certainly, I was certainly both emotionally and philosophically involved in the Civil Rights in a broad array of civil rights issues. I remember at that time, there was a major lawsuit in the New York metropolitan area in northern New Jersey, because of blue laws, because the religious Jewish population celebrated the Sabbath on Saturday. They were business owners. They wanted to open their businesses on Sunday, and they were not permitted to, because of blue laws. That is a civil rights issue. There were a lot of those at the time. Clearly the majors, nobody was getting lynched. No, you know there were, and they could vote, and they could bring lawsuits in court, and so I am not trying to make the comparison, but the concept of the civil rights as a movement, you-you create an environment in which every citizen is entitled to their rights, every citizen is entitled to their rights, so it spreads. So, you pick the biggest and most egregious of the offenses to people's civil rights, and that will expand to everybody else. If you start nitpicking on the smaller issues of meaningful issues, you are not going to reach the big ones. So, I understood, completely, understood where the focus was. I was not I was not going to Montgomery [crosstalk]
IG: 1:14:38
-around in the (19)60s.
FP: 1:14:40
I think it started probably in the late (19)50s or early (19)60s, possibly before I got there, but it was already in full bloom by the time I was by the time I arrived at Harpur College, it was in full you heard about it when I was in high school. Uh, you heard about Pete Singer singing, If I had a Hammer, and that sort of thing, and you read about why and what have you, but it did not have the same impact until you were living among students, some of whom were really committed, who took busses down to Mississippi, who took busses to Alabama and what have you, that was not me, but I fully respected what they were doing, because philosophically, I supported that, but I was not going that was not me. I could not, I could not bring myself to do something.
IG: 1:15:33
What are some of the, you know, major political events of the time that you remember that you know, the Kennedy assassination.
FP: 1:15:41
Kennedy assassination was big. Kennedy assassination was November of 19 November 21 or 22nd of 1963 I was I was at the at the Student Center and watching my watch.
IG: 1:16:00
We run a little bit.
FP: 1:16:01
Do not worry about the time. I was watching my watch, and I realized, up, I got to go. I have a chem lab. And you walked across science one was the science building. There was no science 234, or five and six at the time, just science one and-and there was one wing of science, one which has doors even today that open up onto the peace squad that you go through. And it is a traditional lecture hall with the big sliding in those days, I think it was green boards, actually. They did not have whiteboards in those days. It was green with the yellow chalk, but they slid up and down. This was the big deal in any case, and but the door right next to it that took you into that hall, that led you down to where the LA the laboratories were for chemistry, and I had a chem lab at that time, and I am walking across the Peace Corps, and all of a sudden, my friend Tony Oliveri comes, who was in the lab with me, comes running out the hall, and he sees me, and he was like [inaudible] telling me "What is up? Did you hear?" "Hear what?" "President has been shot?" Whoa, well, what goes through your mind? President has been shot? Guys got a wound. To take them to the hospital. It will be fine, right? We walk into the lab together. We start our chemistry lab. The professor is not there. Their grad assistants are running the lab, maybe not even grad assistants. They may have been upperclassmen, I do not recall, and we had very specific assignments that we were supposed to be doing, but the radio is going. We never had the radio going. You did not play music during labs in those days. The radio is going and listen to news reports and, and, and I remember, never forget, all of a sudden, some on the radio that they make an announcement, wait, stop. And somebody's talking to somebody who had just come out of the hospital. This was in Dallas, and said "Priest is up there with him administering last rites." I remember this specifically.
IG: 1:18:21
Just a few hours later.
FP: 1:18:22
Yes.
IG: 1:18:23
Right?
FP: 1:18:23
That is correct. And we look at each other, this is not some shoulder wound. And of course, he died. [crosstalk] John Kennedy, I mean, this was Camelot. We were young. We were there were there were future Republicans of America, or whatever they but everybody, I mean, you did not have the divisiveness that you were a young person. Kennedy was an inspiration. This was the youngest president. I mean, because we had grown up, if you remember when I was born, right after FDR passed away. FDR passed away on April 12 in 1945 and so Truman was the President when I was born, October 1945 and then Eisenhower, and-and-and then, and then Kennedy. So, Kennedy was, you know, 30 years younger than anybody else who had been in the White House during our-our relatively [crosstalk]
IG: 1:19:38
Charismatic and [inaudible].
FP: 1:19:40
Absolutely, so this, it was an incredible, incredibly devastating phenomenon at that at that time, we had never lived through anything like it. I mean, the comparisons people started talking about the Lincoln assassination and-and-
IG: 1:20:00
Everyone remembers that moment. I remember I was in grade school, and I remember the teacher coming in, you know, and sort of huddling with another teacher. And, you know, the news leaked out somehow that he was shot, and then a few hours later, we found out that he was assassinated. All the children were allowed, were let go, you know, and we could go home. But I remember, I remember that day so clearly. Everyone I have spoken to remembers that moment so clearly, because it was a shock. [inaudible]
FP: 1:20:34
Absolutely. How could this happen here? Yeah, it was absolutely a shock. And when they announced that he had died, that is when we had been in the lab for about two hours, and that is when the whoever lab assistant or senior or whatever said, "I think we better wrap it up, close up." So yeah, I remember that very clearly. That was so we had the civil rights movement going on throughout my entire time in Binghamton, and then right on through my old graduate school, we had Kennedy assassination, and immediately followed by, and I do not think it, had he not been assassinated, we would never have had those great society measures passed. Lyndon Johnson became the president and-and he pushed through Congress, you know, massive social legislation, the Voting Rights Act and the war on poverty and-and what have you. It had long term economic consequences. The guns and butter economy had massive consequences, of course, but-but at the time this progressive legislative agenda got through in ways that we never thought would get through had Kennedy survived.
IG: 1:21:53
Why is that? Explain it.
FP: 1:21:55
Well, the main reason was that the Kennedy assassination raised public awareness for the loss of this progressive agenda that was not going anywhere. And then the vice president becomes the president. And the Vice President was everybody knew he ran the Senate. When Lyndon Johnson was in the Senate, he was the boss. Everybody knew that. So, everybody knew he was going to ram through these things, that as vice president, he was not likely to be able to get through the Kennedy assassination disarmed the loyal opposition.
IG: 1:22:34
Interesting.
FP: 1:22:36
And I remember there was one senator, never forget, a Republican senator, and not these were not bad people. The so-called fiscal conservatives of the time, remember New York State and California, each even then, were known, you know, as the blue states, using today's terminology, as bastions of liberal, progressive agendas. So, when you talk about the Republicans in New York State, Nelson Rockefeller was the long-term governor. Malcolm Wilson was the lieutenant governor for 3,4,5, terms. The Attorney General was Louis Lefkowitz, Republican the State Controller was Arthur Levitt, Democrat, and our senior senator from New York State was Jacob Javits, Republican. Well, by today's standards. By today's standards, their politics was slightly to the left of Bernie Sanders.
IG: 1:23:47
Really?
FP: 1:23:47
And they were Republicans. You know-
IG: 1:23:49
It was a very different, very understanding of [inaudible]
FP: 1:23:52
Very different, absolutely-absolutely, very different. So-so trying to-
IG: 1:24:01
How interesting, so how interesting everything that you are saying, and especially you know this, this the political climate of the time.
FP: 1:24:11
But I will never forget, there was during the time when Johnson was pushing through these measures in Congress that involved big government expenditures and the and the things that you hear what the Republican leadership in the Congress and in the Senate these days have to say about proposals to spend money on progressive agendas, strange, what you consider progressive these days? Today, a progressive agenda is rebuilding the infrastructure of the nation. Go figure, whereas conservative agenda is building a border wall. Think about this for a second. But in those days, the biggest issue they had the word. Thing they could say about Johnson's Great Society, billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you are talking about real money. But-but it was, it was, I mean, Sam Rayburn was the Speaker of the House. I mean, it was a totally different world. It was genteel. Politics could be dirty in those smoke-filled rooms. And we know that from our history books, from First, from accounts that that we, that we have but-but in public, the public specter was of gentlemanly disagreement. It may have been serious disagreements, but people were civil. World has really, really changed anyway. The next big issue that came to dominate, academic life for-for the next decade was Southeast Asia, and that had just begun to percolate while I was in college, and I really did not think much of it. I mean, we had read the ugly American we knew about the domino theory. Then John Foster Dulles, Secretary of State, who had promoted that, that philosophy that led us into our involvement and a lot of misguided approaches, although you could not know it at the time, but from about 1965 on, it became increasingly clear, that the nation was becoming embroiled in a foreign conflict that was going to bubble over in domestic politics and in social unrest. Of course, it came to its peak in the 1969 in (19)68, (19)68 in Chicago, in (19)68 during the conventions, and then through (19)69 and-and, of course, intermixed with all of that incredible assassination became unbelievable. You know, Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy got shot. Of course, Martin Luther King was assassinated, I mean, and that was not something you-you heard about in the United States. Kent State, absolutely. So now I was already out. I had already graduated. But the reason I mentioned that was because prior to my graduating, this was either in late (19)65 or early (19)66 there was a selective service qualifying exam. We all had went from the time you turned 18, you had to have a draft card, a Selective Service ID number and a draft card. Dutifully, we all got our draft cards. You had not yet entered the period when people were burning. That had not yet happened, but if you were, if you were planning to continue in school after you graduated, in order to maintain your student deferment, you had to score above a certain threshold on the Selective Service qualifying exam. They were not going to give graduate net professional school students a free ride out of the draft, just because you were in school.
IG: 1:29:07
Right, I did not know that part. I thought it was just because you were in school. No, you have to score a certain was it like an SAT?
FP: 1:29:14
Yes. Oh, more like a GRE I mean, you were college graduates are going to be right. Of course, yes. So, within a matter of within a matter of two months, I took the Selective Service qualifying exam, I took the MCATs and I took the GREs. I took the MCATs only because my father told me to do it. I had already decided I was going to graduate school in economics. I said, "Do not worry that I will be a doctor, just a different kind of a doctor." But I, but I took off. I took four exams Selective Service and cats. GRS, OH. Were three different exams, and in relatively short order, obviously I did well enough to maintain my student deferment while I went off to graduate school. And that was the end of my Harpur College student career. But as I say at that time in that during the late, late 2005 and the first half of 2000 I graduated in June of-of (19)66 I graduated in June of (19)66 and so during that year, [inaudible] called my senior year. She called my senior year the-the phenomenon of the Vietnam War and its impact on student life and on society in general was just beginning to enter our consciousness in a big way. The first big way was, you were not going to graduate school if you do not do well on this exam, you were going into the army. Oh, you were going to be drafted army, navy to the armed services. And so that was my first big awakening to the reality of what was going on around me that I was not paying that much attention to. Then, once I was in graduate school, once I was up in Albany. I mean, there were mass demonstrations all the time. I was never a demonstrator. No different with regard to Vietnam as it was to the civil rights movement. These were issues about which I cared deeply and emotionally, philosophically, but I did not put myself on-on the line for good or ill.
IG: 1:31:44
Did you feel sorry for the men who were drafted and that they did not have the [crosstalk]
FP: 1:31:49
I was teaching when I was in Albany. I had a teaching fellowship. I ref I refuse to give a male student anything less than a C I do not care how badly they did, because I was afraid-
IG: 1:32:02
[crosstalk[ passing grade?
FP: 1:32:03
It was the last, well, D is, D was a passing grade, but it would not be enough to for them to maintain their student department.
IG: 1:32:11
I see.
FP: 1:32:11
And these were undergrads. So-so it did affect the way I conducted my classes, and yeah, so it became, it became a big it became a big deal. Now I will tell you that as a graduate student, I developed relationships with professors that I had heard some of my undergraduate classmates had when they were when we were back at Harpur, but I never had those relationships in graduate school, I would have dinner at a professor's house. There were two or three other professors who, themselves were going out for a drink, and would invite me along, and we would sit and we would talk theory, and we would pull out napkins, remember the famous Laffer Curve and what have you. Well, that is where these things came from, groups of scholars sitting around tables, having a beer, but also talking about and it ended up getting me some interesting, interesting opportunities. I was there was there was a PBS, there was a PBS series back in the late (19)60s called controversy, controversies in social sciences or something like this. And this particular and there was a and there was a particular episode called controversies in economics, monetary policy and the Federal Reserve.
IG: 1:33:52
That is very high-high, very high brow and very intellectual. I was watching Get Smart.
FP: 1:34:01
Well, I watch Get Smart. I watch Get Smart too, but I was on that episode along with-
IG: 1:34:07
You still have that clip?
FP: 1:34:09
No, that is long that that is long lost. You cannot if, I mean, if anybody finds it on YouTube or something, God bless them. Was the late (19)60s, and it was the chairman of the it was the president of the New York Federal Reserve Bank, who also happens to be the chairman of the Open Market Committee. And there were a couple of professors, and there was me, a graduate student, studying monetary theory and-and-and this was filmed in the WNW students [crosstalk]
IG: 1:34:47
When did PBS begin in Albany?
FP: 1:34:50
Oh, that I forget. I do not know but, but this was filmed in New York City or in, actually, in New Jersey. Was actually filmed in New Jersey. It was not, it was, was not an in New York City Park--was at a studio, and it was WNT the channel 13, their studios, and that was [crosstalk]. Yeah, and, and that is-
IG: 1:35:17
So, tell me, you know, we were, we have been talking for a while. Tell me about just you know, the trajectory of your career. What are some of the highlights you went to NYU-
FP: 1:35:29
Well, I graduated from Binghamton, and my first stop Graduate School of Public Affairs at SUNY, SUNY Albany, I had been admitted to Columbia University. Again, it was always my go to but I would have to pay. In Albany, I had a fellowship.
IG: 1:35:49
Right. That makes a difference, of course, and you probably profited from that experience more.
FP: 1:35:54
It was small, it was a smaller program, and it was, it was very good. So, I got my master's degree in in political economy at the Graduate School of Public Affairs, and I developed some great relationships with very famous economists. Morris Copeland, who had been at Cornell University, was recruited and came over to Albany at that time, Louis Saul, Louis Saul Kiefer and Franklin Walker and Jack Gelfand. I mean, these were very well-known economists in the literature that had been recruited during the Rock- before Rockefeller left New York State to become the vice president under Jerry Ford, he his personal legacy was going to be the State University of New York, and the state, you know, and the state legislator, legislature funded this incredible expenditure, building campuses, creating four University Centers at Stony Brook, Buffalo Albany and-and Binghamton to-to medical school. Stony Brook, at that time, I did not yet have a medical school. So, there are two medical schools of downstate and upstate or in Buffalo. So, three medical schools, law schools. I mean, they were building a university to rival the-the only school in scope, the only public university in scope that rivals was-was California. There were other better known state universities that the Michigan's, the Wisconsin's, you know, and what have you, of the world, but-but our university system was founded in 1948 Triple Cities College was founded in 1946 as you know, but it was a joint venture between NYU and Syracuse University, and there were two that they found at Utica College and Triple Cities College, and they founded those schools joint ventures in order to provide educational opportunities for returning GIS right after the war that was 1946. The school in Binghamton was purchased by this fledgling State University in 1948 and in 1950 changed its name to Harpur College. They created Harpur College in 1950 was located in Endicott in a Quonset hut, and-and gradually they moved with in 1950 they moved over to the mansion and-and then the rest is history. [crosstalk] Yeah, well, that those were those quad set hearts, exactly, and then, and then, by 1960 they started construction on the current campus. In the first building was that gym.
IG: 1:38:39
So, tell me, tell me. Give me highlights of your career. You graduated-
FP: 1:38:45
I left, I left. I graduated Albany and met my future wife. She- I did not have to graduate from Albany. I had my master's, but I was in the PhD program. I could have stayed, but she was- had graduated the same time that I got my master's. She got her bachelor's degree, and she was going to graduate school at the New School for Social Research, going for her doctorate in at that time, was a master's in in psychology at the New School. And I opted not to stay away from her. So, we decided to get married, which we did, and we moved into an apartment in Brooklyn, and she went to school at the New School. I went to work for the First Boston Corporation, and was admitted to the doctoral program at the Graduate School of Business Administration, now the Stern School at NYU and-and then I finished up my doctoral studies there while working for First Boston. I-
IG: 1:39:58
What did you specialize in? [crosstalk]
FP: 1:40:00
Well, First Boston was an investment bank.
IG: 1:40:04
No-no, I meant your thesis.
FP: 1:40:06
Oh, it was foreign capital flows. Foreign capital flows, basically a it was a modeling exercise to designed to measure forces that influenced our balance the capital funds side of the balance of payments, you have the balance of trade, goods and services, and then you have the rest of the balance of payments, which are capital flows that are offset or fail to offset, trade. And what are the forces that influence those everything from currency movement-
IG: 1:40:41
[inaudible] like risk assessment?
FP: 1:40:43
Not really. I mean, that is James Tobin risk assessment. That is that ultimately became Nobel Prize winning stuff for the economist who specialized in that and helped explain what goes on in the stock market. I wish I had studied that. There was no-no future business benefit from studying international capital flows, but I was more interested in the effects that exchange rate movements had on balance of payments, on costs of goods in the importing country, which were influenced not Just by the usual market forces that that influence prices. But something called effective tariffs. We know what a tariff is. Well, there are effective tariffs. That is the actual percentage of the selling price of the good, above the production cost of the good and profit. So, you have production cost, profit, and then some additional costs. Well, those additional costs may be more lower or higher than the so-called tariff, and what influences that, and what influence does those actual costs have on how those things are financed and how they were financed influences capital flows and capital flows, we know in this, even then, even in the 1960s the-the reality had already set in that interstate banking restrictions. We did not we did not have interstate bank in the United States meant that US banks were not going to be able to grow adequately to compete with the large international banking firms that had no such restrictions and-and there were other similar restrictions we had. We had a glass wall in Glass Steagall between investment banking and commercial banking and-and that limited growth, I think, in a good way, we should never have removed it. And we have seen the effects in the replay and then in 2007 and eight of the same kind of financial disaster that that that led to the Great Depression in the 1930s we could have had that again, because we removed from the fiduciary responsibilities of banks restrictions preventing them from gambling on the very volatile financial markets.
IG: 1:43:17
So, but thank you for explaining this in a nutshell. I mean, this is a history and economics lesson for me.
FP: 1:43:27
Bur-but the key point for me, the interesting point for me, was that we that foreign banks were not so restricted. And therefore, they could, they could dominate these international flows of funds. What did not occur to me at the time was that those capital flows could be used to influence elections and election outcomes and what have you the fact that Deutsche Bank has bankrolled what otherwise is a horrible business person. And not only horrible from a personality point of view, but actually business acumen wise, everybody in business knows that Trump is a horrible businessman, and he was always bankrupt and that he is totally financed by-by foreign capital flows. I did not know it at the time. That is not what I was studying. Oh, in New York, it was well, and they were saying [crosstalk]
IG: 1:44:22
[inaudible] horrible business person.
FP: 1:44:24
I mean, not just a horrible business person because he cheats, because he refuses to pay, and that sort of thing.
IG: 1:44:29
I know that he was bankrupt.
FP: 1:44:31
Oh, yeah, he has been bankrupted more times than virtually bankrupt, I know, but he is bankrolled. Yeah, Deutsche Bank owns him, and now Deutsche Bank is being investigated by the AG in New York, and for good reason, they could end up losing their US license to operate here, and they, in turn, are being bankrolled by a bunch of Russian banks who are who with whom, US citizens are banned from-from dealing because of sanctions. Oh, but I did not study any of this. I did not-
IG: 1:45:04
You follow this. Did you teach in your career?
FP: 1:45:07
Oh yeah-yeah.
IG: 1:45:08
So, tell us [crosstalk]
FP: 1:45:10
First, when I was in Albany and I was in the PhD program, but the famous booby prize, you get your master's degree after you finish your coursework and taking qualifying exams. So, but-but I had been teaching at a teaching fellowship, so I was teaching there, and in the summers, I actually had paid teaching assignments. And so, I was teaching at Albany. When I went to New York, I taught. I actually landed a teaching spot at the New School with Jeannie, my-my wife was-was going to school, and so I taught at the New School for Social Research. And then I and then, and we were living in Brooklyn at the time. We moved to Queens to Flushing, because she had graduated, got her master's degrees, and then she went on for her PD professional diploma at the- she switched from social psychology to educational psychology, school psychology and-and she went to St John's University, which is in Queens, and so we moved to Flushing.
IG: 1:46:11
Yeah, you mentioned that in [inaudible].
FP: 1:46:13
And I did not feel like traveling from Wall Street out to Flushing and then back into town to 14th Street to teach at the New School. Our next-door neighbor in the building where we were living in Flushing was a professor of accounting at Hofstra University, so he invited me to come down and talk to the department chairman. The next semester I was teaching money and banking at Hofstra University, so I taught at Hofstra University for a year or two. Well, it was actually three semesters, so a year and a half and um, and uh, you know, I finished up my degree [coughs] worked for First Boston, and that went on until 1986.
IG: 1:47:06
Mm-hmm, both the teaching and First Boston?
FP: 1:47:09
Yes, I had an adjunct position during the entire time that I was working at First Boston. Primary role at First Boston was to serve the needs of clients. So, if a client was involved in a particular investment, for example, they were going to issue couple of 100 million dollars’ worth of corporate bonds in order to finance the purchase of another business and acquisition. What is the economic outlook for the nation? Should we be financing with fixed rate bonds? Should we be doing this with bank loans? Should we be doing this with variable rate instruments? What is your forecast for interest the interest rate outlook over the foreseeable future, the next six months, the next year, the next 10 years, within the firm, what, what does-what do the economic prognosticators claim is likely to be the course of economic events, because first, Boston also took large positions in the securities markets, particularly the government securities markets, primary deal in securities and-and so they wanted to know both our own personal thoughts and whatever research we were doing, but primarily we were information gathering. So, there were big research firms Chase econometrics, DRI Data Resources Incorporated. That is Otto Eckstein's firm and a number of other large models of US economic activity. There are economists at all the large commercial banks and whatever they are all generating these forecasts, our job was to gather all of this intel, put it into a meaningful, compact presentation, and share most likely our thoughts and the and then spread the whole range for the investment bankers, because they are the ones who are going to put the firm's money on the line.
IG: 1:49:16
Right-right. [inaudible] can make recommendations [crosstalk]
FP: 1:49:19
Absolutely, well, I would not be in a position to make a recommendation invest in this or invest in that. I might say I think interest rates are going to be going up. Certainly, the preponderance of information suggests that is going to be the case. And I have done some research on my own, it suggests that, in the past, when these circumstances arise, that is what happens. That is how the Federal Reserve responds. So, if I were you, I would not be investing in fixed income instruments. I might be focusing my attention more on real estate or whatever. But I am not the one who makes the decision to put stuff on the line. So, I have told you what-what the evidence shows. You still have to make, which is why I get paid a modest salary, and you make millions of dollars. I am staff you are [inaudible] and-and that was all that, but that is what I that is what I did there. And also, from time to time, clients would ask us to visit them. They were having a dinner for the local community. It could be, it could be a university where they, you know, the First Bank One of Ohio is headquarters, you probably know, in Columbus, and they are very closely tied to Ohio, to Ohio State and-and so they fund a center the-the-the Bank One, Bank Ohio, in those days now it but Bank Ohio a center for the study of economic developments at the Ohio State University, and-and they, and they are holding this big conference, and they have got several different economists we would like you to be among that list. Please come and give a speech on the economic outlook or on whatever. Well, they are entitled to that. That is, that is a service that first, Boston provides to their clients.
IG: 1:51:23
You would give these-
FP: 1:51:24
So, I would go and I would give a lecture or a speech or what have you. I was, I had a lot of dinner meetings in New York and around the country. I mean, their first Boston, did a lot of business with state governments, particularly the retirement funds-funds or the endowments of the public universities and what have you and-and so part of that service included my going out, and-
IG: 1:51:53
What was your title? You were-
FP: 1:51:54
Vice President, Economist. Vice President, Economist. In the economist department, it was called the, not the economics department. Was called The Economist department. Singular, there were, there were about five of us. I was not the boss. Albert [inaudible] was the boss. But and I did. I did a speech once at the western states, State Treasurers Conference, treasurers from all of the Rocky Mountain and West Coast states, including Alaska, came and we met in in Las Cruces, New Mexico.
IG: 1:52:35
That is where my daughter lived.
FP: 1:52:38
And I gave a presentation out there, speech, and we did other conferences like that around that that was not really research. That was entertainment. We were the after-dinner entertainment, make no mistake about that, but that is a service that-that investment [crosstalk]
IG: 1:52:56
Meanwhile, your teaching career-
FP: 1:52:58
Well, it was- always as an adjunct.
IG: 1:53:00
At Hofstra?
FP: 1:53:02
Well, it did not actually, no, it did not end at Hofstra. But there is a twist to this whole tale, because all of this continued until 1986 and 1986 everything came tumbling down. I got, I was diagnosed with a non-Hodgkin lymphoma, and the-the um, the treatment was expected to be successful. They had good success rates, no guarantees, of course, but-but it was a very intense six months. Let us put it that way, between radiation, chemotherapy and-and a few surgical procedures because they were cutting out lesions that had popped up on the surface and-and I ultimately, I ultimately left First Boston. I could not walk across the street in the amount of time from the time that the-the walk sign came on, I could not make it across the street before the light had changed. I mean, the serious nerve damage, it was, it was rough. I mean, I could not really function very well in a work.
IG: 1:54:17
And you were just a young man. You were-
FP: 1:54:18
I was not that young, 40, 40, [crosstalk] but uh, but um, I, but I got through it, and I survived and-and moved on. My wife was an educator. She gotten her degree in School Psychology. She was working in Cornwall schools and then Pearl River School System up where we lived in Rockland County, and so our whole circle of friends tended to be a mixed bag of people from the financial community and people from the educational, K-12 educational community. And so, the questions were, are you going back to First Boston or to the world of finance? And at the time, I had three young children. My oldest was born in (19)81 my youngest was born in (19)87 and the middle one was born in (19)83 they were relatively young. I- working at first boss, and I never saw them. Sounds always traveling. Was always on the road. Investment banking hours are seven to seven.
IG: 1:55:39
Yes, I know.
FP: 1:55:39
It is, you know, I just never saw them and-and here, I just had a, what in my fragile psychological state I call a near death experience. So, physicians would tell you know that it was highly unlikely there is a 90 percent cure rate. So, you know, it was very unlikely that-
IG: 1:56:01
You had, you had the experience of a near death experience, or just the fact of [crosstalk]
FP: 1:56:05
Just my, just the fact of being diagnosed with-with a word that starts with a C.
IG: 1:56:11
Of course.
FP: 1:56:11
It is a cancer. So-so-so I am reevaluating what I am going to do with the rest of my life, and one of Jean's friends, for some strange reason I will never understand this, educators tend to marry educators. There are exceptions, and I am one of them, but many of our friends, wife was a teacher. Husband is a teacher or administrator, or some, you know, some, some can both some connection to education. Why that is, I do not know. But one of the gentlemen who was not Jean's [inaudible] was friend with the wife who was a guidance counselor, if I am not mistaken, at Pearl River High School. Her husband was a math or science teacher at one of the high schools in New York City. And says, "Why do not you become a teacher? They are desperate, desperate for teachers." So, I went down to 65 Court Street in Brooklyn, and I walked in to the office of recruitment. I walked over to took a number, walk over to the desk, "Yes, sir. How can we help you?" "Well, I was thinking about a second career in education as a teacher." "Very good. What have you got? What-what can you teach? What are you, what are you equipped to teach? Do you have any educate teaching licenses?" I said, "Look, I have been teaching on the college level for the next for the last 20 years. Well, last 15 years anyway, and I have a PhD in economics. I thought I would be a high school social studies teacher." By the time, by the time he finished laughing and pulled himself up from the floor, and came back over and says, "Social studies teachers are a dime a dozen. What else have you got? Let me see your college vita, not interested in graduate school." Pull out my college. I was told, what brings a whole bunch of documents you have to [crosstalk].
IG: 1:58:38
Can I guess?
FP: 1:58:40
Yes.
IG: 1:58:42
Biology.
FP: 1:58:44
"Either biology or chemistry, science, high school science, biology or chemistry. Absolutely, that is what we need. We have a shortage. Yes, and you are qualified, except that you do not have the ED credits. We have a program. It is called the fast track to education. You will set you up teaching science. There are some exams you have to go through." In those days, they had something called the board of examiners. New York City independently licensed teachers in those days, separate from New York state licensure, and it was actually more challenging to get a New York City license than it was to get a New York State license. But you have got to take this exam, and you have got to sit through this board, and you got to do this. You got to do that. You are going to have to take a laboratory test. Now. You got to remember the last time I was in a biology lab or chemistry lab was when I was at Harpur College.
IG: 1:59:38
Yes.
FP: 1:59:39
[laughs] And that is 20 years ago.
IG: 1:59:41
How did you feel?
FP: 1:59:42
I pulled out a review book. There were review books for these tests.
IG: 1:59:47
So, you were determined?
FP: 1:59:48
Oh yeah. And I looked through them, and I said, I know this stuff. And I went to all the exams.
IG: 1:59:54
[inaudible] thought about giving up that illustrious career that you had it for [crosstalk]
FP: 1:59:58
Thrilled.
IG: 1:59:59
And teaching at Hofstra?
FP: 2:00:03
I could still do that, [inaudible] and by the way, there is more to the story, because that I come back to, that is quite all right, okay, so I, so I my first teaching assignment is at the Langston Hughes High School on 18th Street. I am teaching chemistry, and-and I get a call from District 12 in the Bronx. They are developing a computer science program for elementary and middle schools in that community, school district, and from this office of recruitment. Among all the other things, there was a lot of computer technology. Because ay First Boston, we were at the forefront of modern computer education interestingly enough, because when you have to teach investment bankers how to use a computer and how to learn from a computer you are well equipped to teach in elementary school how to how to use a person the new personal computers. Oh, yeah, that role of teaching people how to use personal computers, the IBM XTS and ATS and what have you teaching all of the sales, of course, how to use their computers. Who do you think that fell to there was no in house IT department? [laughter] Eventually they developed big IT departments, but the first, the very first step that way. So, any case. So, this is all on my resume, and so get sent up. So, I ended up going up to the Bronx and-and I was hired to teach, to set up, to set up computer labs. And I had literally an unlimited budget with Apple, and I was getting all of these early Apple-Apple two computers, and then the GS is, and then the Macs and the setup computer labs.
IG: 2:02:04
This was in early (19)90s?
FP: 2:02:06
This was in the late (19)80s and early (19)90s, yes-yes.
IG: 2:02:12
And to all of these apples, and we were just coming to education, to the universities, I remember.
FP: 2:02:19
Well, it was, it was very interesting. Apple differed dramatically from IBM, not just because the computer architecture and the chip themselves were different, but because Apple said it is not going to be hardware driven, we are going to provide this hardware virtually at our cost of production. Practically give it away, because the monies in the software. That, of course, is exactly what Microsoft, what Bill Gates said IBM idiots had the opportunity to own that d- that disk operating system that Microsoft had developed. And they said, "No, we lease it" because the monies in the hardware. No bad, one of IBM's worst business decisions ever. But long story short, I ended up going from the Bronx back to Manhattan. I went to work for district 12 or district 75 which is the city-wide program for special education, and doing the same thing, teaching computers to developing, building computer labs and teaching students how to use computers and teaching teachers how to integrate computer application. [crosstalk] No, the software was widely plenty of vendors producing excellent stuff for me to sit down and do that. I might as well go to work for one of the vendors and produce the software. But the commercially available software was excellent, and getting better every day was no point. But somebody had to set up the lab, somebody had to teach teachers how to how to use this. Somebody had to teach the kids how to use it. And so-so that was me, and that went on until 1998. 1990 and in the meantime, I came fully certified. And what have you. 1998 the superintendent of district 75 city white programs called me into the office and says, you need to be an administrator. I cannot have you working on a teaching line, doing what you do. So, I became a special education administrator, and I had to go to school. So, I-I went to school. I went to College of New Rochelle prior to their financial collapse recently, although this snap. and back. Thank goodness, because it is actually a very good school. But I went there because they had a fast-track program to become an administrator, school administrator and-and then I got my New York state license as an administrator, all of it that was in the evenings, because I was working during the day. Then I became an administrator, eventually at my own school, which was located ready for this 88th Street between Park and Lex. So I was, I was 30 blocks up, right down the block from the Guggenheim. Guggenheim is right there. And while I was that, and once, once, I was ensconced up there. And that basically went from 1998 until I retired in 2011.
IG: 2:05:48
Did you enjoy this part of your career more? You know-
FP: 2:05:52
That is like, that is like, believe it or not. And I have used, I have been asked that question. I basically had two careers, investment banking, with the side gig of adjunct teaching of economics, and then K to 12 education, with an emphasis of special education, but also a side gig, because, and this was the thing I told you I was going to get back to. I was recruited to teach at both Mercy College and Turo College. At Mercy College, I was teaching education, special education to prospective teachers, undergraduates. And at Turo, I was teaching experienced teachers in Supervision and Administration, preparing them to get licenses as building a supervised assistant principal. [crosstalk] So I was teaching, so I had that adjunct gig go throughout my education career as well. So, the question you asked these two careers that I had [crosstalk], two 20-year careers, which, thinking back on it, which did I like better? Which one did I and the and I use this analogy before, because they have been asked that question before? How do you choose between son number one and son number three or son number two? I cannot I thoroughly enjoyed both. I have loved my careers. Both. Got a lot of self-satisfaction out of both. Um, and-
IG: 2:06:39
What do you think it is the quality in you? And this is, you know we are going to ask, I ask everybody you know, what lessons did you learn from your life that you can share with students? What is the you know? What are, what are the qualities, what is the mindset of somebody who equally loves these extremely different uh-
FP: 2:08:03
I had opportunities. I had, I personally had opportunities to move into these two particular careers under different circumstances. It might have been very different careers, and it I believe, I cannot prove it, because it did not happen, but I believe it to be the case that if I had gotten involved in a different career, I would have ended up loving it as well, putting myself into it [crosstalk] So it is just the way I am that I get involved in something, I throw myself at it, and I develop a relationship with that field of study, with that career, with that activity and-and appreciate and develop a great appreciation for it. So, it is less about the particular careers and more about the fact that there were two different careers. There could have been three, there could have been four, or there could have been two that were totally different, but I believe I would have been pretty much psychologically in the same place I am today, having had two successful careers and having enjoyed them both, what I would tell anybody else, first of all, because of primarily of my adjunct teaching, I believe in career oriented education on the graduate level, I believe in a liberal arts background prior to getting that professional training, because it opens your eyes to so many opportunities about which you may not be aware which professional training are you going to get when you decide I am going to be a teacher and I am going as an undergraduate to get an elementary education background, you have divorced yourself from a world of possibilities. I love K to 12 education, and I am and I love teachers, and I really believe that is an excellent career choice for many people. But how do you know as an 18- to 22-year-old that that is what you want to do for the rest of your life? At the age of 22 four years have gone by. You have been exposed to the world now. If you still feel that way, get that professional education. Go for those teaching credentials. Spend two years. Get a master's in education. That is great. Do not do it as an undergraduate. And I have taught the people who did it as an undergraduate, and that so many of them are very good teachers, but it is like a thoroughbred who runs races with blinders on to keep their eyes focused on the track. They do great running down the track. Unfortunately, they will never be able to pull a fire truck or-or run in a rodeo or do anything else, but this because that is what they have been exposed to, and they do not have a clue as to what else is out there. You want to become an accountant. Wonderful. I went to the Stern School, and a lot of the people at the Graduate School of Business Administration were studying accounting and Advanced Accounting, becoming CPAs and MBAs and what have you excellent. Get a liberal arts education. Know what the world has in store for you. Four years later, you decide, you know, I took an accounting course as an undergraduate. I took a business course as an undergraduate. I really that is where my interest lies. I am going to go to graduate school at Business Administration. I am going to focus on accounting on to get my CPA and what have you. It is not a waste of time. Do not go as an undergraduate to become an accountant. You graduate as an undergraduate accountant. Now you have still got to go for another two years before you can take the CPA exam. You could have done it in exactly the same amount of time, and your exposure to the world would have been so much greater. I am a firm believer in a liberal arts education and save professional training for later, for-for later, because it is not that much later. It really is. It seems when you were 18 years of age that it is that much later, but it really is not. So, I-I loved, with the benefit of hindsight, my broad-based education. I am not a great fan of mandates, but there are certain requirements for getting an undergraduate education that are not often enforced and I personally, and that may just be me, but after the fact, I very much value the fact that I was forced to take a course in anthropology, a course in sociology, which courses that I would Not in a million years, have chosen on my own. Where else would I have read Argonauts of the Pacific? Bronowski, so classic. I mean, you know, but you know where you know. This is important. This is if you are going to be educated, be educated, at least exposed to the world, and then narrow your focus to your interests. Well, how do you know what your interests are at the age of 18? When I was 18, I was going to go away to college to become a doctor, a dentist, a lawyer, an accountant. That is it. That is all there was no that is not all there was. And so, to the next generation. And by the way, my kids, my son, Jordan, as I said, my middle son, he went to Binghamton. He entered Harpur College. He lived at Hinman, went to that Hinman program of literature, and whatever it was that first year, got involved. His involvement at school was in the essay. He was the president of NSA my son, Jordan, as well as and then he went on to MIT, got a master's and a doctorate in engineering at MIT, and today he and he ended up focusing his doctoral dissertation in this area of research was in health systems. It is engineering systems, or systems engineering, and with a particular emphasis on health systems, and he was the director of process improvement for Maine Health, which is a large hospital management company in New England, and in fact, we are very good friends. He has become very good friends with the now soon to retire at the end of this year, Dean of Watson. Uh. And during these years, Jordan was routinely consulting with Watson about the health-health management systems programming of Watson here in Manhattan. And he was, he was part of that. So that is my oldest son. He went, he went to Cornell. My many cousins who went to Cornell. Cornell was one of the places where the educated side of our family, my uncles, who were college graduates and their children, all went to Cornell. So, I that is why I went. That is why, when I was applying to an Ivy I applied to Columbia. I was not going to Cornell because that is where all my cousins were, but my son wanted to go to Cornell. He went to Cornell. He ended up meeting and marrying his wife at Cornell. They now live in Boston. He is an attorney. And my youngest son also went to Cornell. He went to Cornell and became a meteorologist. Studied meteorology there, went out to the University of Colorado Boulder, which is where Noah is located. And they work for Noah and for Lasp. Lasp is the laboratory of Atmospheric and Space Physics.
IG: 2:16:16
Does he have a graduate degree?
FP: 2:16:18
Got a PhD, and he was, he was he now, he was teaching at Columbia, but he just moved about a year and a half ago up to Cambridge. At Harvard University, they have, they have an incubator, just like many of the schools do, and he is involved in a startup at-at the incubator at Harvard in data science.
IG: 2:16:45
That is going to be a very big field.
FP: 2:16:47
He is in this data science, and they are developing models and programming and or what have you, and-and that. And that is, that is what he is doing. [crosstalk] Incredibly proud of them all, but they all have one thing in common. [crosstalk] they all have one thing in common, and I do not mean the same parents. They all started their post high school educational careers in broad based liberal arts education, and they are all well-educated. So, they are not just top flight professionals. They are well educated. They are well educated citizens of the world. And that is important for me. That is what gives me the greatest pride, that plus the fact that they have jobs actually, they are actually making money so and they all own their own homes and-and they are not that old. I mean, you know,
IG: 2:17:48
It has been really a pleasure talking to you. I think that now we should think of wrapping up our conversation together. Do you have any concluding remarks?
FP: 2:18:00
Well, the project itself, when I was first approached, and when you first sent me, this goes back September, I think. But it was before, it was before homecoming, and-and informed me that that the library was initiating this project and-and that you were going to be putting together a history of the (19)60s. I thought back about my life and how much of it? And there has been a lot of it. I am suddenly three years old, so there has been a lot of life that followed my Harpur College experience. And, you know, I am not an architect, I am not an engineer, but it is fairly well known that any successful edifice rests squarely on a sound foundation, and Harpur College gave me that foundation. I am incredibly proud of that background, and over the course of my life, I mean, I have met people who knew about Harpur College when Harpur College was a tiny little liberal the liberal arts college of the state university system, a tiny little school. I-I was a student at Harpur, a senior at the time, and I was working at a I mentioned to you that I finance my some of my passionate expenses, like owning an automobile, to you and that sort of thing with my summertime earnings at a boy’s camp and one of the youngsters in my, in my cabin when I was working at a boy’s camp, was chip Fisher. And you might say, well, who is chip Fisher? Well, Chip Fisher is Avery Fisher's son. So, I got to meet Avery Fisher and his wife. Avery Fisher himself was an engineer and an acoustic engineer and the designer Hi Fi equipment and all of that sort of thing. His wife was a lover of the arts. I did not know it at the time, when I was a student at Harpur College, we had artists in residence, the Guarneri Quartet-Quartet. She was the one who got paid the bill. And I did not have a clue, and I ended up meeting her. I said, "Well, I am a senior at Harpur College. “She looked at me, "Harpur the Guarneri [The Guarneri String Quartet]." [laughter] So all I can say is, no, not everybody in the world needs to go to Binghamton University. It is a great school, but anybody who is going to pursue education for the sake of learning has my vote. Do it. Get an education, spring out into your professional careers, study for your professions and what have you. Once you know what you want, once you develop your passions, but give yourself the opportunity, an expansive opportunity, to explore lots of opportunities, lots of passionate things to do in this world, explore them, and then pick the passions that you have from that array and-and then go for it absolutely. So that is my those are my concluding remarks. Harpur was an excellent jumping off point for me, and sound undergraduate education is a great jumping off point for anybody. But explore your passions while you are while you are young, and then pursue your professional career. Do not do it backwards.
IG: 2:21:59
Thank you very much.
FP: 2:22:00
So that is [crosstalk] my pleasure. My pleasure.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Fred Neil Peck
Subject
The topic of the resource
Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae
Contributor
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Peck, Fred Neil ; Gashurov, Irene
Format
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audio/mp3
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2018-12-21
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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Fred Peck, PhD.mp3
Date Modified
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2019-01-17
Is Part Of
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
Extent
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142:03 minutes
-
Dublin Core
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Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE54398">Harpur College Orchestra Recital</a>
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Title
A name given to the resource
Harpur College Orchestra, May 21, 1965
Recital Tape 1965-5-21
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts
Instrumental music
Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Works by Vivaldi, Wagner, Telemann, and Haydn.
Creator
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Harpur College Orchestra
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Contributor
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Vivaldi, Antonio, 1678-1741
Wagner, Richard, 1813-1883
Telemann, Georg Philipp, 1681-1767
Haydn, Joseph, 1732-1809
State University of New York at Binghamton. Department of Music
Date
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5/21/65
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This digital recording may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Binghamton University Music Department tape recordings, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton
Type
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sound
Identifier
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39091019618952
39091019619000
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cd05137ee5bfa2b4ca10af25ea3dded3.mp3
b68a4c3fbb3a2c6c286faa6322447d26
Dublin Core
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Title
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Kurdish Oral History
Contributor
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
An account of the resource
<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
Rights
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In copyright
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
2 August 2015
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Marwan Tawfiq
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Abdullah Qassab
Language
Kurdish
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Abdullah Qassab
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fff05d36a35f514f1f5ab56ce055a70f.mp3
a9d01c3e8096dcbd8b4ea3271a285c14
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kurdish Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
An account of the resource
<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
9 June 2015
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Marwan Tawfiq
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Adil Sharif
Language
Kurdish
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Adil Sharif