Interview with Paul Chaat Smith

Smith, Paul Chaat ; McKiernan, Stephen

Paul Chaat Smith is a Comanche author, essayist, and curator. He wrote the books Like a Hurricane: The Indian Movement from Alcatraz to Wounded Knee and Everything You Know about Indians Is Wrong. Smith has also lectured at the National Gallery of Art, Center for the Arts in San Francisco, and the Getty Center for the History of Art and the Humanities in Los Angeles.

2010-03-12

In copyright

2018-03-29

McKiernan Interviews

87:01

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Paul Chaat Smith
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers
Date of interview: Not dated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Start of Interview)

00:06
SM: Testing 123. Testing 123. Testing 123. [Background comments: Great, super. I have to go back and forth here. Is that TV set on over there or? I guess I will not bother.] When you look at the boomer generation before we get into Native American boomers that is the question. The first question I want to ask is, do Native American boomers those individuals born after 1946, do they identify with this generation of young people that were involved? I know the American Indian Movement was a very important movement and from (19)69 to (19)73 but when you talk about the boomer generation, do you and do Native Americans as a whole identify with that group?

01:02
PS: Yeah, it is kind of a good question. I am trying to remember when I first was familiar with that term, the boomer generation, and like, you know what I made of it at the time, what I think of it now. So, I do not know, I cannot say.

01:22
SM: I will let you hold this and check this every so often to make sure it is working properly. I know what I am saying, but I want to make sure.

01:28
PS: Okay, this is good.

01:30
SM: Yep.

01:31
PS: Okay. So I cannot recall a lot of Indian people I know talking about themselves as boomers but you know, the changes that happened in the United States, you know, post-World War II and someone like me coming of age in the late 1960s. You know, it is clear there was a national and global phenomenon going on. But I think how people connected to that or, you know, if they felt, you know, what they had in common with other people in the same generation, I am not sure. But I think there was definitely a sense of, you know, events happening that, you know, that you are a part of that are the circumstance about, you know, global economy and national events. So I do not know, it is a funny word "boomer" right, it is like you are trying to same, you know, Generation X and Generation Y. You sort of sense, it is sort of, you know, part of this idea of naming something, you know?

02:44
SM: You state something, and in some of the things that you have written that you and your cohort when you wrote that first book, believed that what the counterculture was to white Americans and what the civil rights movement was to black Americans, the American Indian Movement was to Native Americans. And I would like to define it in two ways: number one, how important the American Indian Movement was during that four or five year period, but link it with also that the period prior too, which was "red power", which was like, because I can remember that when I was a student about the Mohawk nation up in Syracuse. They were furious about their land being taken away, and they got students from Syracuse and Binghamton. They were all working together to stop the highway from going through their land. That was Red Power.

03:37
PS: Yeah, I mean, the discussion about boomers and activism obviously overlaps hugely with the idea of the (19)60s. So one of the things that is interesting about Native activism is that, you know, the first really huge major event did not happen until one month before that decade was over. It was in November 1969, at Alcatraz. So, you know, I talked about it as us being late to the party in a way, you know. There was important activism before then and you can look at the nature, when you talk about Red Power. That was characterized by college students, native college students, who had a completely different kind of aesthetic to their, to their movement. There were people who read the New Republic, they were people who unselfconsciously called themselves intellectuals (this is like: 1964, 1965, 1966) and that was also the look of, you know, the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley, for example, you know. So those things were quite similar. In terms of people about the American Indian Movement, you know, that is an organization that was formed in 1968. But it is real impact came, you know, not really until the early (19)70s. So, you know, it is interesting to talk about the (19)60s in activism in terms of Native people and see that, you know, most of it was happening after, you know, a very powerful anti-war movement. You know, it was already established. And obviously, there were activists who were part of the anti-war movement. Some of the leaders, early leaders of the American Indian Movement, talked about being influenced by the Black Panther Party. Looking at some of the tactics they use to challenge you know, police practices in major cities. You know, people were partly you know, watching television and reading some of the same books. Yeah.

03:37
SM: Yeah, yeah, a lot of the upstate, two individuals in particular, Newt Gingrich when he came to power in 1994, and then George Will, throughout his career as a writer, always take shots. They love taking shots at the (19)60s generation, and all the activism that was taking place. And oftentimes they say that a lot of the reasons why we have the breakdown in American society today, with the unbelievable divorce rate, with the drug culture, lack of; no sense of responsibility, disliking people in positions of authority, it all goes back to that era. And basically the student activists. And those 15 percent of seventy-eight million that were involved, whether it be the anti-war movement, the women's movement, Native American movement, Chicano, the environmental, all those individuals gay and lesbian, all the ones that were in the movements. They like to blame them. Of course, generalizations are not good but when you hear that, when you see someone writing about that, even when you think of AIM, it is really attacking AIM too. What are your thoughts? As people reflected on those times today? They like, everybody likes to place blame on things.

07:30
PS: Yeah. I think there was a great deal of ̶ there was ̶ There was a lot going on. So I think, you know, there was at times, a sense of self-congratulation and hype about, you know, the (19)60s, about activism about the counterculture and for me, I think one of the important things to look at the Indian Movement was to take kind of a more dispassionate examination of that. To really try to see what, what the consequences actually were. And, you know, something like AIM or the Panthers or the anti-war movement become so polarized. You know, it is very hard to actually have the kind of conversation, you know that I think we need. So, so the American Indian Movement was for a couple of years by far the most influential and popular quasi-organization and there are implications of it, you know, thirty years later. So, I have been interested as somebody that was part of it towards the end of it is, you know, successful years to take you know, to take a hard look at all of that. The consequences of it. One of the reasons that Robert Warrior and I wrote our book "Like a Hurricane", was that we would meet people like, he was teaching at Stanford, I think then and he would meet Indian students whose parents had actually been activists in AIM and all they really knew about AIM was, you know, a movie like Thunder Heart, you know, with Val Kilmer or just a lot of representations that, you know, not even an issue what they are being correct or not, but just obviously very superficial and coming from a different place. So it is a lot about trying to look at that history more seriously, and engage it. So you know, we saying clearly that we are just, you know, extraordinary heroism and bravery and intelligence, and fantastically stupid decisions, a culture of thuggishness, you know, certainly took hold. And I think all those things have to be looked at, you know. I do not know I mean to talk about like, blaming these movements, you know, for things that are going on today. I do not know what that is really what interest that really serves. But I think taking those movements really seriously looking at all the sacrifices that people made, looking at what actually was accomplished. You know, that is sort of what, you know, I was trying to do with that project.

09:27
SM: You okay? When you say 'thuggishness' was that? Would that be what happened to the Students for Democratic Society when they became violent? When the Black Panthers, although they were Bob (Seale) and (Pete) O'Neal's program, there is a lot of people that consider them a violent group and they took guns. Is that what you are saying about the Native American movement? AIM, in the beginning, and then it changed toward the end? It became even much more militant?

10:43
PS: Yeah, I guess it is similar in some ways, you know. AIM as opposed to SDS, you know, never was a real organization. Anybody could join at any time. There were like five different national leaders, you know, a national chairman, a president, an executive director, things like that. So, so you could not have any real accountability in that situation but there was certainly, you know, an element that really believed in armed struggle, you know, that really believed in, you know, the kind of, the kind of, I guess without the discipline of the Weathermen or something but certainly, you know, there were elements of AIM that really relate to guns, you know.

11:23
SM: Your upbringing. Where were you born? And at what moment? Were your parents, the ones really, obviously young people are finding their friends. But then there comes a point as a young person, you are starting to identify with one's culture. Who was the most influential person in your life in say, those first ten to fifteen years? Who influenced you the most? And you became sensitized to issues of Native Americans.

11:50
PS: Me and my two sisters, we were all born in West Texas, although we have virtually no memory of it because my family moved to Upstate New York briefly, so my dad could get a doctorate at Cornell. But we, both my parents are from Oklahoma. My dad, a white guy who actually is now an enrolled Choctaw. My mom Comanche. So I know we were very connected with Oklahoma. They sort of hated Oklahoma, which is why they wanted to leave, but then we always went back. So this was, you know, growing up in the 1960s. It was because we mostly me and my sisters who mostly lived in Washington, DC, but we were pretty connected with Oklahoma. So when I was growing up, my grandfather, my mom's Dad, you know, he still was minister of the Comanche Reformed Church, and they still did certain church services in ̶ and Comanche so it is not like I was disconnected from that. I was not around it all the time. But it was before the sort of cultural renewal, you know, really took off in the later (19)60s. So it was not, there is something very Oklahoma about it and that you know, this church that had been around since the turn of the century. And, you know, you see all these pictures, you see all this history of it. But it is not like my mother's side of the family talked about the old days in any particular narrative of either struggle or resistance or anything, you know, my mom, so my mom's brothers were in the military in World War II. They could not, none of none of my mom or siblings could go to like powwows or anything like that. And, you know, it is was like a lot of the US and the world was at that time, you know, the middle of the 20th century, which was not about us hanging on to our language, no matter what, let us keep our ceremonies, you know, let us do all that. And so now we pretend that we always were like that, but that is just not really true. Certainly not a place like Oklahoma. So, I would say for me and my sisters, you know, coming of age in the late (19)60s you are influenced by all kinds of things. And we certainly were. So all of us were, you know, all of us connected with, you know, seeing world in different ways. For me, it was politics for my younger sister it was going to Institute of American Indian Arts, Santa Fe. My sister also worked at Indian organizations for some graduate studies. So we were part of that. I think that is where a lot of people learn, like that.

14:23
SM: [Inaudible for a minute] Testing one, two. That is better.

15:13
PS: It seems better to me. What is wrong with it? Sounds fine.

15:15
SM: I do not know why I did that.

15:17
PS: Oh okay.

15:17
SM: It is a different tape. I am going to hold it here and I will double check a hook or something. Okay, we are talking about Alcatraz.

15:27
PS: Right, Alcatraz.

15:28
SM: Why? What was its purpose and what were its goals? And how important was it with respect to the American Indian Movement?

15:39
PS: Well, Alcatraz came about because the United States closed its maximum security prison on the island. So it became a question of what would happen, you know, to this amazing piece of real estate with all those gorgeous views of San Francisco Bay. And so there were various ideas of luxury housing and some kind of a resort and all these things that were not very practical because Alcatraz was, you know, the most secure prison in the country for a really good reason which is very difficult to get there. So the idea of having condominiums there and a shopping center and all that was not very realistic. And so the urban Indian community in the Bay Area, thought you know, well actually, we should get Alcatraz. So there were California Indian folks that had been pursuing various you know, actions towards redress for many years. The Urban Indian Center in San Francisco that had suffered a disastrous fire so they needed a place, and you know, everybody's talking about Alcatraz in the Bay Area. So all of that turned into a ̶ you know, a few dozen college students organizing a takeover on the island. This was in November 1969. So landing on, you know, getting those from Sausalito to be on Alcatraz overnight, you know, was an adventure but not incredibly hard to do. What really changed the event was the fact that it was because it was federal property it became a first a General Services Administration issue and then it went to the White House on how to handle these protesters. And Richard Nixon at that point, the new president, you know, was sort of shopping for a model minority, a minority group where he could, you know, build a good record. So, he had these high level advisors, one of them was Leonard Garment that saw an opportunity to, you know, be in dialogue with these protesters to explore possibilities for the administration to show their good faith for this minority group. So it all could have ended in a day or two. But the decision by the Nixon White House to actually negotiate with the occupiers, turned it into a very different thing and elevated the event to a whole other level. So it actually lasted for a year and a half, the occupation. And so it got, it never got the kind of attention people want to remember it as getting. It was, you know, it was in the national news maybe once or twice. It was a big story in the Bay Area for quite a while. It was, you know, like a lot of like a lot of the activism that Robert Warrior and I talked about in your book, it was sort of heroic and smart, and also badly planned. For there is a period of months in which people talked about it as a Lord of the Flies situation. You know, it is sort of the downside of having this wonderfully open movement that anybody can join. It means you get, you know, criminals and drug dealers and thugs being part of it. And very idealistic people. So it was that kind of a mixed bag. But I guess what was so startling about it was the idea that Indians would do something like that. Would occupy, would break the law and occupy federal territory. I think for a lot of Native people had internalized this idea that we would never do something like that. And so it was kind of amazing to a lot of Indian people. Apart from the particular demands, or who the groups were; the individuals, it was just wow, Indians did that. That's pretty amazing.

19:48
SM: Was it mostly boomers was mostly young, Native Americans? I know. I am just reading a couple of the names. The one young man ended up dying that was the leader, the guy that swam in or?

20:06
PS: Yeah, sort of the leader of the group was Richard Oakes. His daughter died during the occupation in an accident. He was, and Oakes himself was killed seven years later, in a separate, in a separate event.

20:22
SM: Did the federal government really make a rough on the AIM leaders? Yeah, because the federal government and Richard Nixon was spying on anybody and that was an activist at the time. Did you feel the pressure within AIM that the government was watching you and every move that you were making?

20:40
PS: Yeah, by the early (19)70s. Clearly. Especially after Wounded Knee, it was sort of no secret that, you know, the FBI considered, you know, AIM a very dangerous organization. I mean, they would say so in public press conferences and you know, the COINTELPRO tactics that were used on other movements were certainly use against a AIM in the (19)70s. Without a doubt.

21:09
SM: That was pretty intimidating. Did that, did those activities and what they said about the leaders carry on beyond the (19)60s? In other words, they made life miserable for them ongoing? Because of their involvement?

21:24
PS: I mean, I think the period in which, you know, the US government really focused on AIM was certainly through most of the (19)70s. For sure, yeah.

21:35
SM: In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?

21:38
PS: I would say, it began 11/22/(19)63. And I would say it ended in 1975.

22:14
SM: Is that because we ended our involvement in Vietnam, is that the -

22:21
PS: I would say that, and other things. Yeah, I guess I mean, it is always really artificial. But yeah.

22:38
SM: Is there one event that you feel had the greatest impact on Native American boomers in their lifetime? Particularly when they were young?

22:46
PS: I do not know what that would be? I cannot think of one.

23:06
SM: Can you think of one? What was the one event that shaped you more than any other?

23:10
PS: I would say, less at the exact time but I think the Wounded Knee occupation in (19)73 just because out of that, I ended up a year later, going out to South Dakota. But I did not know much about it at the time. And so it is sort of more in retrospect. But that certainly was a major event for me and you know, a lot of other people. But I think those are people who are more inclined to activism in the first place. You know?

23:43
SM: Why was Wounded Knee the event? How did that? You had Alcatraz. You had the incident in Washington with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. You had them obviously many other activities and events. But that one. What made that stand out?

24:07
PS: Well, you know, just as Alcatraz was startling because you had Indians willing to actually, you know, break the law destroy government property. This was Indians actually taking over a town, you know, and occupying it and holding off, you know, Federal Marshals. So again, that was like an electrifying idea that that could be happening. The idea that you would, you know, take such measures to call attention to what conditions were like on Pine Ridge Reservation which were desperate. You know, all that was, it was like: Indians are really doing this? This is amazing.

24:53
SM: Is there? When you look at not only Native American boomers but boomers as a whole. I mean, you cannot generalize again. But where there are certain characteristics that were positive or certain characteristics that were negative toward this generation? Particularly emphasizing the 15 percent that were activists; which is pretty cool, almost eighteen million people, when you think of the numbers. What were the strengths and weaknesses in your eyes?

25:26
PS: One of the things that was interesting about the Indian Movement that I knew as somebody who came out in (19)74 to South Dakota, so this was a year after the Wounded Knee occupation. Years after Alcatraz. And, you know, really appeared in which that was the year that Nixon resigned. That was the year that, you know, the Vietnam war, at far as US involvement was winding down in terms of the number of Americans in combat, not necessarily in terms of deaths or anything. But you know, in a sense that was late. And the Indian Movement always had this amazing variety of people actively involved. Which was not really as true of a lot of other movements. So you had so many older people, and you had so many like children, you know, throughout all these age groups. Of course, there were examples of that in other movements, but even some of the key leadership of AIM, they were actually, you know, in the early (19)70s, they were in their mid-(19)30s. Some of them. So they were older. But, but some of the most influential people were actually in their ̶ you know, (19)60s or (19)70s; elders who were very influential. And you would see little kids everywhere. Babies everywhere. All that. So I think that was kind of striking.

26:57
SM: It is a lot different than some of the others.

26:59
PS: Yeah, it was. It was.

27:03
SM: I know Dr. King tried to get younger people into his civil rights but he was criticized heavily for doing that by fellow African Americans who felt like what are you putting young fifteen and sixteen year olds under that kind of pressure? Yeah, but he was trying to do it. And I know the women's movement had some of the babies by their sides and stuff. But I cannot think of too many other movements, seeing kids at.

27:25
PS: Yeah, yeah and I mean you look at photographs and moving images of some of the key events. You see that. How, how diverse in terms of age, the Indian movement was.

27:40
SM: The issues oftentimes when you look at Native American issues, in the (19)50s, (19)60s and beyond, some things are striking. You see all the broken treaties. Of course the treaties have been historically broken for a long time, way back to Ulysses Grant, you know, the breaking of treaties. People went to plead the case that treaties were being broken. We certainly had poverty and a lot of various issues of alcoholism. Do you find that it is when people write about Native Americans, that they, they seem to dwell on the negative sometimes as opposed to the positive? And that is what the AIM, the American Indian Movement, really in the end was about empowerment? Not letting others dictate to us, we can dictate to them.

28:30
PS: Hmm. Yeah, it was about empowerment. Definitely. Definitely. I think for me, the main flaw of the Indian Movement was, you know, an inability to articulate some kind of strategic vision on what we are actually going to try to win. So the movement was great at highlighting a specific incident, like when a guy named Raymond Yellow Thunder, you know, was killed at the Dakota/Nebraska border and basically nobody cared. You know, Indian organizations did not care, the government did not care, the tribal governments did not care. You know, it was great at mobilizing people on behalf of somebody like Raymond Yellow Thunder. But not that anything about the civil rights movement was easy, obviously none of it was. But an issue like voting rights, an issue like fair housing, you know, segregation. Those were issues that affected you know, most African Americans in the US in a huge way. And that you could, you know, actually have a solution, not a revolutionary solution, but you could actually do that. A lot of the issues that community cycle and the Pine Ridge Reservation face were you know, are incredibly complex and often not really similar to other reservations, let alone Indians who live in cities. So in other words for the Indian Movement to say you know something under the tiller, is a voting rights, is it fair housing? What were those demands? Sure. People could, you know, talk all about you know, you have broken our treaties. Okay you have broken our treaties. Now what. What exactly? Those were the things that were very difficult. Probably the moment that the Indian Movement came closest to that was the, the 1972 Trail of Broken Treaties caravan that came here to Washington in which, there was you know, they had some significant you know, tribal government folks, people like Vine Deloria Jr. all saying look, here are these twenty points that should be a starting point for real discussion to deal with these things. They were not just demands they we were saying let us have an engagement. So that was a moment that there was something you could actually talk about. At Wounded Knee, you know, when you declare yourself the Independent Oglala Nation, sovereign from the US, you are not really going to have much of a discussion, right? That is a pretty extreme position. The Trail of Broken Treaties, of course, blew up and practically resulted in the firebombing of the Bureau of Indian Affairs building on the eve of Nixon's reelection. So, you know, the smart work some people had done to develop this program was eclipsed by almost being this catastrophe.

31:38
SM: Do you feel Richard Nixon used the Native Americans particularly in the American Indian Movement, because from the very beginning, he wanted to work with them, and then it became very hard? Because Law and Order was such a big issue in America and he was going to stop the protests. Do you think? Do you feel that they were used?

32:01
PS: You know, I think that is kind of what Robert Warrior and I were hoping to find out. That our search of you know, archives and talking with, you know, government officials and, other folks. We did not really find evidence that this was of any real concern to Nixon himself much at all, then. You know, this was, there was a lot going on. There were these high level senior aides that did have this idea, this political project of saying, Nixon's really good on Indians and in fact, if you talk to virtually any Indian, people that look at this closely, they will say, and I am sure this will be startling to many of your readers that Nixon is the best president for Indians of the 20th century.

32:47
SM: Why? That would be! That is, that is a magic moment, really.

32:52
PS: Because of the Self-Determination Act in 1970 which basically said we are going to reverse this policy; or informally sort of reverse assimilation and termination. It granted, you know more rights to tribal governments and said we will engage tribal governments. And it also specifically returned certain lands to Native People. Like Blue Lake for the Taos Pueblo and all of that. So, in terms of a policy point of view, I mean, you could say that it just shows how terrible all of the other presidents have been, and certainly it does not change what the FBI did in terms of activism. But in terms of the big picture of policy, you know, you could get almost in any Indian and say who was a better president than Richard Nixon? And I think very few would come up with a name.

33:48
SM: I cannot live in your shoes. One thing to learn early on, I was involved in a lot of anti-war stuff, but you cannot be in someone's shoes. And the thing is, it is the fact that all the land in this country was Native American, basically. You know, and, and, of course, now the reservations, and of course, there is gambling and so forth. Some things have changed, that are positive. You mentioned that at the end of your book. But still, it is got to be pretty upsetting, isn't it still? To know that this really, all belonged to Native Americans and it was the white man that really – that is all the white man has really seemed to do.

34:35
PS: Yeah. It is kind of crummy. That is true.

34:42
SM: Yeah, it is um, you mentioned that the American Indian movement still has an influence today. What was, what was the lasting influence that, that activism, whether it be Red Power, or American Indian Movement has had the Native American community? As boomers you know, Native American boomers are now reaching sixty-two, they are like, all the other boomers. What is the lasting effect of that activism?

35:09
I think it is, I think it is ambivalent. I do not think there is; I do not think the Indian community in the US has made up its mind yet about it. I think their kind of popular cultural references are still pretty, are what a lot of people know. I have heard many people who are not part of this activism, and many folks in the US talk about how, this museum would not exist without a ̶ you know, that they feel for all the faults of a you know, a lot of what that activism really was about was invisibility. About nobody even knowing that we are here. About being completely ignored. About being in the past. So whatever else AIM did, it certainly said, look, we are still here. And it says something else: we are not who you think you are. We are not who you think we are. That you imagine that we are, you know, just completely peace-loving and would never, you know, take over a building or a town. And it was a shock to see that some Indians would do that. So, you know, it is interesting that many people who are not big fans of AIM, would say this building would not exist without that activism.

35:09
SM: Then this, this is kind of the lasting legacy then, really.

35:48
PS: Yeah, I mean, you know, in a way that museum is a little bit like Alcatraz, where it is this moment that comes up that all of a sudden there is this island. What happened with this building was that in the late (19)80s, the largest single intact collection of Native material, a museum called The Museum of the American Indian in New York, all of a sudden was kind of up for grabs. So the Smithsonian, the American Museum of Natural History and Ross Perot actually all tried to get hold of this. So, in other words, without that collection, whatever the mysterious way countries decide to take seriously like slavery in the US for example, which is ̶ in many ways, or look seriously at Indians. It would not have been enough without that collection being there. The Smithsonian was not going to open this building without material, right? So it forced that. So it is kind of an interesting confluence of things. But clearly people would say the activism that pushed this, even you know, when people took over Alcatraz, they talked about a museum being there. They talked about a school and job center and all that. But they talked about a museum. You know, at BIA, there was a museum in that building. A huge number of artifacts that were on display. And even at Pine Ridge, at Wounded Knee in the village of Wounded Knee, there was a little trading post, Wounded Knee museum. So there is this thread of museums to kind of go through this activism. So in that sense, I think there is a real connection with the existence of the ̶ and the American Indian, and the activism going back to the 1960s.

38:24
SM: I think one of the important things that you bring out in your book is that you really define those, the top activists. We all know about the two that most Americans know about is Dennis Banks and Russell Means and they are in the (19)60s history books. But the thing is what you bring up Clyde Warrior, Hank Adams, Richard Oakes, LaNada Means and certainly Dennis Banks and Russell Means. Why is it important that these names must be known by American students today when we talk about the (19)60s and the (19)70s and post-World War II America? Because I do not think I have to tell you that our students do not know a whole lot about history, period. How important were these people? And what? Where would the Native movement been without those six people?

39:21
PS: Well I was thinking about when you said most Americans know Russell Means and Dennis Banks I was wondering what Americans you are talking about.

39:24
SM: [laughs]

39:28
PS: Because I think actually, very few people, you know, really would know those names or know the American Indian Movement at all actually. I mean, that is, that is a huge thing everybody is looking at now, is, right? How much Americans know about their own history? Was the Korean War before after the Civil War? We want to know the answer, right? But for me to answer your question, I think it is about how in 1967 let us say, a lot of really smart folks looking at this situation probably would have predicted yeah, there is going to be an interesting Indian Movement, that is going to be much larger than it is now. And I think almost everybody would have said it is going to be led by students. Because look at the (19)60s, look at how students were at the forefront of the anti-war movement. Of much of the Civil Rights movement students were extremely important. And you had these people like the ones you are mentioning, Mel Tom and, you know, Hank Adams all these people who came out who and identified as students -

40:44
SM: LaNada Means. I mean!

40:46
PS: Yeah, that is right.

40:47
SM: I did not know much about her, but boy, people should know about her! If you were to even ask boomers when they went off to college: name Native Americans that you know, and that is my, you know, our generation. Obviously, they would know from the history books about Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse and some of the big name Native Americans. But the one that would probably come to the forefront would be Jay Silverheels because he was the sidekick of the Lone Ranger. It is just amazing! Jay Silverheels was the most well-known Native American in the (19)50s!

40:51
PS: Right, right. So you have all these people who, almost all of which were students and were student activists and wrote and all that. And yet, what emerged was AIM. Which was basically nothing like that. There were a few students there, but it was led by these older folks, you know, who were much tougher. Much different. Not in their twenties. And had a much rowdier kind of base of urban Indian folks and Reservation folks. You know, that was pretty prevalent. You came from a poor background, you are pretty privileged if you are going to school in California University system in 1967 or eight, you know, you are in a good situation, comparatively. So anyway, it was interesting to look at that to see how unpredictable history is. And how different this was, and I am sure if I had been there in (19)67, I would have predicted that students are going to be decisive but it was not students at all. It was people with criminal records or, you know, people who were, you know, Dennis Banks was somebody, an executive at Honeywell Corporation for a while. So it makes it fascinating when you realize how, in retrospect, it was predetermined but you know, if you put yourself back at that time, how unlikely it was that AIM would look like what it was. And how sad it is that the kind of intellectualism that a lot of the student movements had in the Indian world was kind of lost. People wrote long, thoughtful letters to each other and, you know, tried to keep abreast of, you know, things going on elsewhere in the world in a different way. By the time Mean came along, it was not that cool to be reading a book for a while, you know. So you always want to know these things to not have to give up one for the other, you know. Yeah, that is right. He was. He was very famous.

43:07
SM: Yeah. Then there was another one that was on the Walt Disney show had the advertisement with a tear coming down, he was in a lot of Disney movies.

43:13
PS: Right, right.

43:14
SM: That was that was the other one too.

43:15
PS: A commercial. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. It is funny, there were some Vietnam vets who were part of Wounded Knee, you know. On the AIM side. And they used their skills. You know, it was so different from now, it was a draft, right? So took a lot of effort or pull to not to get drafted. I think it is curious that there is a, there is a mythology, this is in my mind, a mythology has been built up about how special it is that we are, you know, that a traditional concept of warriors, you know, is used by even us to talk about us being in the US military. Because I do not think Indians in the US military were any different than anybody else. And I think the notion that there is almost an exemption, I think a lot of people that would like, not want a discussion about the horrible things white soldiers did in Vietnam, that you would not hold Indians to the same standards. How that would be different. It is interesting, we go to powwows and very common to have a special ceremony for veterans and of course I think veterans should be treated with respect, you know, they made a sacrifice for their country, but it is almost like a complete denial that while they were serving the United States in Iraq or in Vietnam and that somehow the idea that you are Indian makes it that does not really matter because you are really some kind of sovereign soldier or something like that. So I do not know that would be that is, that is a certain kind of invention, I think, in the US Indian world about that you can think how wonderful it is our soldiers went there and again, beyond disrespecting their service that they did this, although in some cases, they did not have a choice because they would go to prison if they did not, and do things all other soldiers are supposed to do. But it is so special and cool because they are Indian. I think it was, you know, difficult for everybody who was in a place like Vietnam. But I think somehow we have been kind of, you know, something was being created about Indians in that war in particular, you know, that I think is suspect to me.

43:16
SM: I have got to. This is coming out fine this time, let us hope. The question I have is about Vietnam veterans. Now, I have just gotten a hold of Mr. Holm. I do not know, Tom Holm who has written books on Native Americans from the west coast. He is in Arizona. And he has got a book that was written on Native Americans who served in the Vietnam War. There were a lot of Native Americans who served our country in that war. And a lot of them came back and we have had a couple on our campus over the years talking about the experiences of coming back to America. Your thoughts on the Vietnam veteran, Native American Vietnam veterans, who served their country and what they came home to. I have some things that I will share with you, but I want your, basically your feelings, on those. That is because there is a lot of them on the wall. A lot of Native Americans on the Vietnam Memorial. I know that when they dedicated the property over there, where they are going to build the underground center. A very well-known Native American Vietnam vet was there. He heads the organization. And he was very close to Jan Scruggs, and everything. I do not remember his name. But I know Paul Critchlow from Merrill Lynch in New York was the only white man that was ever allowed into the organization because they fought side by side in Vietnam. And finally, they allowed this one white man to be a warrior. One of the perceptions that you read about amongst Native Americans - How are we doing time wise? Because 4:30 is when we are done.

47:23
PS: Yeah.

47:25
SM: I got to go to another, this thing better be working. I will bring a second one the next time we are going to be dropping them. The Vietnam Memorial, Native Americans, oh, the perception when you read in the books on Vietnam, is that many Native American Vietnam vets or soldiers were put on the front. They were the ones that were at the very front because they felt they were supposed ̶ a stereotypical attitude that says they can 'track'. So they will put them on point.

48:02
PS: Right, right, right.

48:03
SM: And a lot of them died.

48:04
PS: Yeah, yeah. Because they were not magical so a lot of them died.

48:07
SM: You have heard that before then?

48:09
PS: I never heard of it in a way that necessarily trust it. I mean, I will give you another example the idea that Mohawks have special ability about heights because they worked high steel, right? Famously, many of them worked high steel. I met some of them, you know? They said, you know, help put up this bridge or you know, this building. But, you know, they were, they were highly paid industrial workers who were happy to come to New York and do this and, and they did not have any particular ability about heights. They did not have any special skill about heights, they were like people who needed work, we are glad to do it. Maybe they let people think that. Or maybe some of them believe it themselves. But it gets really kind of silly to think that they were you know geniuses on high steel, or that, you know, because you have Native ancestry you knew how to track in a jungle in Indochina. That is a little -

49:12
SM: Vietnam veterans, no matter what background they came from, we were not treated very nice when they came home to America.

49:18
PS: No.

49:19
SM: All of them were not even welcome at the Veterans of Foreign Wars. If you were a Vietnam vet, no matter what your background, we do not want you. Now they are 80 percent of the organization. But at that particular time, they were not welcome, because there were all these perceptions out there: they were baby killers and all the other thing is My Lai. Things like that. And that was so far from the truth. But in the Native American Vietnam vets that, you know, I know you cannot generalize, but how are they treated upon their return? Not only by Americans as a whole, but by Native Americans? Their peers. Were they held in higher respect because they had served their country? Or did some of the older Native Americans, or some of their peers did not show respect for them because they went to war?

50:07
PS: It is hard to say. I mean, I could think of a few examples, but they seem so singular. I would not know how to characterize, that. I am sure a lot of the same attitudes everyone else had were the same. I think for a lot of in the twentieth century, a lot of Indians joined the military. You know, for the same reason other people who, you know, are economically disadvantaged do. As I said earlier. You know, my mom's family, all of her brothers were in World War II. So there is a tradition of that. So, it might be a little different than other communities where people felt they had more choice or born automatically, you know, expected to be in the military.

50:59
SM: These are general questions right now. One of the general questions is all the other movements that were taking place at that time, the anti-war, the Native American, which we already talked about the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, certainly in the environmental movement, and the civil rights movement. Were Native Americans, were they connected to those movements? Did they did they attend the rallies for those movements? And the second part of my question, because one of the things that comes up, that is why I believe this name "Means", the female, is very important, because there is a lot of sexism within the within all the all the movements. In civil rights and anti-war it was rampant. Was there sexism within the Native American movement where women were second class citizens, so to speak? Or, there were not very many in leadership roles?

51:58
PS: One of the informal logos that was very common for AIM was actually a version of the Playboy logo. So that spoke to a certain sexism within AIM. That was absolutely true. One of the things that is a little bit different is that there were very strong women leaders in AIM, but they were overwhelmingly related to some of the well-known leaders, some of the guys. You know, more sexist than SNCC? I do not, I cannot really assess that. But I would say the nature of it was that you probably had a lot more women in key activist positions than maybe in some of the other groups. But I think a lot of the sexism that we see in other organizations was, was similar to what happened and what was true in AIM.

53:02
SM: And were more most of them were women leaders mostly older as opposed to boomer age, which were younger? Like the young man who was kind of the leader of Alcatraz? He was like twenty-two years old. Were there any women that were twenty-two that were like him?

53:19
PS: In the Dakotas there were a number of women activists that I worked with that were in their twenties, mid-twenties, even thirty that were very key activists in the movement, yeah.

53:32
SM: This is a question that I have asked everyone. There is two basic questions that I have tried to get at. One of them is the concept of healing. Whether we are still a nation that has a problem with healing, particularly within the boomer generation, as now they are heading into Social Security age that they are going live another twenty years, boomers are not going to die easy. But your thoughts on whether we as a nation have a problem with healing from all the divisions that took place in America, at that time. Not only the division between black and white, male and female, could be a Native American or white, a white man it could be for the troops, against the troops. All those issues. Because we went through the riots, we went through all these issues through and (19)68 and all those things that happened. And the reason I am asking you is, I took a group of students’ right here at DC about nine years ago to meet Edmund Muskie, the former senator before he died from Maine who actually ran for vice president. We asked him that question, because the students wanted to know they saw (19)68 and they said, man, we close to a civil war that year? And because they were not born then. He responded by saying we have not healed since the Civil War, let alone (19)68. So he would not even talk about (19)68. Your thoughts on whether we as an; whether the boomer generation, which includes Native Americans, all boomers all seventy-eight million of them are going to head to their graves with issues or problems with healing. Of course some people do not even think about this but some might. Particularly the 15 percent of the activists who tried to make a difference in this world. Do you think we have a problem with healing? Is there a problem of healing in the Native American community?

55:27
PS: I do not know. It feels like part of the human condition maybe. I do not know. It feels, um, I do not know that this country or this generation is great at it but I do not know who is.

55:46
SM: The people that were involved in that very important movement from (19)69 to (19)73 as they have gotten older, not only the people who were old, the pre-boomers, but people like yourself and boomers after (19)46 they know that they are going to pass someday. And it is only going to be the history of that particular period. Do they worry that? Do they still have some problems with the groups of the people they were having problems with back then?

56:20
PS: I know there are a lot of people on Pine Ridge, where Wounded Knee took place (19)73, you know where it is, like ten thousand people then, I guess, but it is basically small enough that everybody knows everybody. And some of them leave but most of them do not. So that is a case where, I do not know there have been real efforts of reconciliation between people who were, you know, really mortal enemies. People really killed each other, you know, after Wounded Knee for a while. And you know, people in that context really tried to come terms with things. I cannot really speak to that in terms of, you know, I was never in a situation where I was in a place like that where you are, you know, community based and dealing with that over time.

57:19
SM: Do you think people would even come here to this facility? Some, especially Native Americans, who from all over the country might finally get that chance to come here to Washington see this facility that not only does it bring pride to their culture, but it is also a little bit of healing too? From maybe some of the frustrations and may have seen in the past?

57:44
PS: A lot of native visitors feel different things here. I do not know. I guess maybe some people would talk about it as beginning the process of healing of reconciliation. You know, the biggest moment for this museum was when it opened in September 2004. Something like twenty thousand people -

58:12
SM: Saw it on TV.

58:12
PS: Yeah, that was this huge moment. And, you know, it felt great, you know. What happens the next day? How does, you know, the museum actually work beyond being a symbol beyond being just affirmation and pride. You know, that is a more difficult question I think.

58:33
SM: And Bill Clinton was late too, was not he? Very late. He got criticized for that, because the White House is not very far from here. I heard he was late for everything, from people that work for him. A couple of other things too. The issue of trust. One of the issues that I felt that I personally felt and I have asked everyone is whether the boomer generation and again, all boomers have a problem with trust because they saw so many leaders lie to them. Certainly you already told me some of the things that Nixon did to the Native American community, but obviously Watergate and Gulf of Tonkin, the Vietnam War. There is questions about what was going on Vietnam with even President Kennedy. If you were an observant Boomer, you knew even Eisenhower lied to you, the U2 incident and then you go on into Reagan with Iran Contra, so the boomers have throughout their lives have seen leaders who have disappointed them or lied to them. But secondly, people who major in political science know that when you have, when you do not trust your government that is healthy, because that shows that dissent is alive and well and supported. Your thoughts whether you feel the Native American boomers have a problem with trust. With Native Americans have not been able to trust too many people throughout their lives, have they? Because of lies taking away land and then as time passes, probably more than any other group along with African Americans, the lies have been outrageous.

60:13
PS: Well, then you have an overlay of dysfunctional tribal governments that are corrupt and inefficient and also liars, so, you know, it is, I do not know, the skepticism. It is, it is certainly deserved, but it is not, it does not just work on, like the US government, you know. Its again, a lot of very seemingly intractable issues that are very, very difficult. So, you know, it mostly means we are not thrilled with our tribal governments, you know so it is very difficult.

60:51
SM: What is the number one issue right now? And what are the biggest issues today facing Native Americans that still have to be resolved in your in your view? And certainly now that the World War II generation is passing on, and now boomers are getting into old age, we got Generation X'ers now who are in their forties. So we got, you know? What are the issues that Native Americans are still unhappy with or still have to be resolved? In your opinion.

61:27
PS: Well, we are still among the poorest people in the United States, so that is still true. There is this looming demographic change that is coming up, where, you know, when I was growing up being half Indian was sort of just been barely Indian. Now, you know, I mean, all these -

61:56
SM: It was the batteries, they were dead. These do not last long, I tell you.

62:01
PS: Well that is good to know -

62:03
SM: Well what happened here was one question I lost, but I do not know.

62:06
PS: Yeah, but you know, this idea of like quantitative percentages and all that that, you know, really only we talk about in this way, it is very bad. You know, that is changing a lot so, most if you go to any big Indian family reunion, you know, it looks like the United Nations, you know, it is people from all over the world often, you know. So that is a very different thing than the (19)50s or (19)60s where if you were a quarter Indian, you did not even really count in many ways. So, so that is something people are looking at now. Definitely change is coming.

62:49
SM: What is the Vietnam Memorial mean to you?

62:51
PS: I am not someone that was you know, I was affected by Vietnam at a distance, obviously, because I was not somebody who was immediately at risk. I guess I would say I think about it in terms of, you know, as a sort of a museum professional about seeing it as a very effective monument in Washington. Look closely at how it was created and that has nothing to do with the emotional impact a lot of people would have, I do not feel like it is something I, you know, would own or be a part of. But what I what I think about though, is that when Maya Lin was brilliant at though was understanding, you know, she understood what people wanted versus what they said they wanted. So, if you ask, this is what our museum does, is ask people to like, design the exhibits you know. So ask, most Vietnam veterans, gee here is our idea. It is a wall of granite with names on it. How do you how do you like that? Most of them would have said, it is probably a terrible idea, and there was a lot of hostility at it when it was released. And yet the emotional power of it, you know, was incredible and that showed that she had an insight into the human condition and the human heart, you know that triumphed versus what people wanted to see they wanted to see figurative displays. So that is how most people do not know how to think about monuments or art so I think it is an incredibly successful thing, but I am not ̶ I was not in Vietnam, I did not lose people in Vietnam. So I obviously

64:45
SM: Do you know many vets? Do you know the influence this had on many vets on Native American vets?

64:49
PS: Not really I mean, I knew vets that were either, who were part of AIM. No, it is not really something I know about or could speak about.

65:00
SM: I am just asking here now, just your immediate responses to some of the terms and people of the era and that is what the Vietnam Memorial is. And what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?

65:10
PS: I remember when they happened. It was a big deal. I was in high school, I remember when it happened.

65:17
SM: What was your thoughts on it, when you heard that four college students are killed on a college campus and then two were killed a week and a half later?

65:27
PS: Yeah, I was, you know, I mean, I was living in Washington. So um, you know, it was, campuses, you know, in turmoil, and it was it was a very traumatic time.

65:42
SM: The fortieth anniversary is coming up this year, I cannot believe it. What is Watergate mean to you?

65:50
PS: Watergate was fun. It was interesting. It was like this long form novel of you know, a lot of things happening at a time. You know, very antiquated, right? Because you would have to, like, get the Washington Post each morning, you know. A very old fashioned kind of thing. It was great.

66:11
SM: And when I say this, not only you but whether you felt any of these had an effect on the Native American community too. Hippies and Yippies, what do you think of them?

66:22
PS: I have noticed that Indians have always been terrible at choosing allies. So early on, we decided hippies were good allies for us. And then we are stupid allies for us. You know, and we encouraged that a lot. So I do not know who I would have chosen instead. But I think you know, the idea to feel like there is this natural affinity was not helpful to our situation, in my opinion.

66:56
SM: How about the Black Panther Party? When I say this, I am talking about seven or eight different personalities here, Eldridge Cleaver, to Kathleen Cleaver to Bobby Seale and Huey Newton and Dave Hillier, Norene Brown, Stokely Carmichael. H. Rap Brown the entire gamut. What did you think of them?

67:21
PS: I was a SNCC guy. I liked SNCC. I did not like the Panthers that much. I especially did not like the California Panthers. But you know, you talking about somebody who at the time is fifteen years old, right? It is not like I was palling around with them. In one of my essays I wrote, I experienced the (19)60s, one of the best ways possible through television. Maybe the most authentic way possible. So you know, I am the kid who is reading books and making judgments, you know.

67:48
SM: What is your history lesson? What do you think they were good for, or bad or what? Overall? Because they challenge the civil rights movement, and they were they were the ones that challenged Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer and Roy Wilkins and said, you know, you guys are times past. This is Black Power now, it is not about non-violent protests.

67:50
PS: I did not think they were very bright.

68:20
SM: How about the students for democratic society too and that was another group that was the anti-war group that became the Weathermen.

68:28
PS: Yeah. You know, it is a group that always had a lot of cache. I cannot really remember. I guess I did meet people. And sort of there was sort of solidarity work done with Indians and I think I met some people who have been SDS but not like, you know, necessarily at Berkeley or anything. So you know, it was, it was a group that, you know, again, me is a pretentious teenage intellectual. So I am reading about SDS and we can learn about it and all that. But it felt pretty remote to my experiences.

69:11
SM: You mentioned TV, you learn through TV. You learned about a lot of these persons in black power through TV. What? What were the things that you saw on TV that influenced you? The media was very important. It was the first; TV brought the Vietnam War home to America. I mean, they saw it every night on the news. In the Native American community, obviously TV was very important, I am correct? Particularly if you live in like North Dakota or South Dakota or?

69:52
PS: I do not know, I did not live there. I lived in suburban Washington so I do not know what that experience was like. I mean, you know, I heard Stokely Carmichael speak at the University of Maryland. You know, I read the Washington Post, I mean, I got information from a lot of places. So I would never like, it was always filtered through certain skepticism about what was what was going on, about the Panthers or whatever.

70:22
SM: I was going to ̶ why do you think the Vietnam War ended? What do you think was the main reason when the combat that it did end?

70:34
PS: And that question saying the war ended when?

70:36
SM: The war in the 1975 but, the reason why it ended?

70:44
PS: Yeah, well, I guess like most people, I would say it would have ended sooner. That the last several years, we are really about saving things for the United States, which is you know, any realistic idea that the US could win that war.

71:10
SM: Even though you are fifteen and you saw it on TV, how important you think students are an ending that war? Because there were obviously Native American students at Berkeley and other schools that were protesting.

71:21
PS: Yeah, it changes everything when you have a draft, you know, it like, you know, it is completely different than what you are looking at now.

71:33
SM: One of the big issues within that time frame was that it was the draft. That was why the protests were happening and certainly a lot of African American, Latino American and Native Americans were not able to have the influence that good old white Americans had getting out of the war.

71:50
PS: Yeah.

71:50
SM: Through deferments, well going to college for one thing. You got out until you finished school and then they would go after you.

71:58
PS: Yeah.

71:58
SM: But they did not have access to that.

72:01
PS: Right.

72:02
SM: So that is another very, did you hear that talked about it all in the Native American community? That many were forced to go in the military?

72:15
PS: Only rhetorically, I mean, not, you know, not really beyond that. You know it is obviously true that people had more access, you know?

72:26
SM: Some went in too because they thought it was going to be a career.

72:29
PS: Yeah.

72:30
SM: It was a career direction that they were taking.

72:32
PS: Yeah.

72:33
SM: Now I have got a quote here, but I know that I had all these names, but you were fifteen so I am not sure if you want to respond to these names or not. But just quick, just quick thoughts on these people real fast. How are we doing time wise?

72:51
PS: Five more minutes.

72:51
SM: Five more minutes, okay. What did you think of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden?

72:55
PS: I lived the Bay Area in the late (19)70s. So they were actually, let me see, I think Jane Fonda, I saw her speak once. Tom Hayden ran for the Senate that might have been (19)78 or something? I do not know. Hollywood celebrities sort of, I do not know, they were not. I mean, I never I never. From an activist point of view, you are trying to get them on your side. But it was never really clear to me what that did for us. So I do not know.

73:34
SM: When you look at the President's for the boomers, which goes from Truman to Eisenhower to Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II and now Obama, of all those presidents, I know you cannot speak for all Native Americans, but were any did any of them stand out as popular within the Native American community and why?

74:09
PS: It was surprising how many Indian people supported Obama. Because Indians in the US did not know Obama and he did not know Indians. And McCain had been on the senate Indian Affairs Committee for many, many years. But as it turned out, Indians overwhelmingly supported Barack Obama for President. So that was interesting. As I said earlier, from a policy perspective, most people would say, overwhelmingly, Nixon was the best president for Indians. So, yeah.

74:40
SM: Some of the other names I will not go through all these presidents but the leaders of the women's movement and certainly the politicians Eugene McCarthy and Bobby Kennedy and Hubert Humphrey and Lyndon that whole ̶ (19)60s, politicians of the (19)60s, did Native Americans, like any of them?

75:06
PS: I think a lot of people liked Bobby Kennedy. Was what it seemed like.

75:14
SM: And of course, he was assassinated. Of course, Dr. King and Malcolm X were also very important, different styles, different ways, Muhammad Ali with the refusal to go in the draft.

75:27
PS: Yeah, yeah.

75:29
SM: Were there any heroes within the Native American community outside of the Native Americans? Who were not Native American? Did they have heroes? Do you have heroes?

75:43
PS: Joe Strummer, probably would be a hero.

75:45
SM: Who?

75:45
PS: Joe Strummer of the Clash.

75:49
SM: Okay.

75:49
PS: I am not a (19)60s guy. I do not know. I do not know. It is see, you know sort of as a cultural critic, you sort of are about tearing down heroes not building them up. So I do not know. I guess I do not have a lot of them.

76:15
SM: And notice that today's students, their heroes are their parents, or their uncle or their aunt, and you do not, see too many political figures, maybe some athletes.

76:24
PS: What is up with kids today with their best friends are their parents? I did not get that. It is what I keep reading about.

76:28
SM: That is the millennials what is amazing is 85 percent of the students today are from Generation X parents. Yeah. Fifteen are boomers. The boomers that have kids late.

76:39
PS: But how can your best friends be your parents? I do not get it.

76:39
SM: But what do you what do you think will be the lasting legacy of the boomer generation with that includes Native Americans, what do you think will be one of the best history books ever written?

76:54
PS: I think it is, uh, you know, people had an incredible ride, you know. An incredible moment in history to be able to have amazing educations of amazing economic situations. The last great generation of the American Century maybe? That stuff is never coming back; you know? I just think, very fortunate. Like my parents too, earlier generation, but you know, just people born in the Depression. If you worked hard, you could end up upper middle class that is what my parents did. They both were from modest families, you know my mom was a preacher's daughter and my dad was even poorer, even though he was white. And just by being smart and working hard, they ended up upper middle class, and I think that is a very different situation now. I mean, I respect that they work hard and everything but everything was there for them. You know, at that time, that kind of education, you could get the kind of jobs that were there, you know, the economy steadily, you know, becoming stronger.

78:11
SM: Overall. And since you are kind of a middle boomer, not an early boomer, are you pleased overall with the way boomers have lived their lives? Have they been a good influence on their kids and their grandkids? In terms of activism, fighting for justice. I know we cannot generalize here but the boomers, that you know, are they kind of living some of the ideals they had when they were young? Or did they cop out and go off and make a lot of money and raise kids and just simply say, well, I was young then and I had a lot of time. Your thoughts on boomers over time, from the time that when you were young, looking up to them and then now, forty, fifty years later.

79:03
PS: I used to know what to do with that question. [laughs] I do not know. I do not know. I do not know.

79:11
SM: You do not know whether you are happy or sad.

79:13
PS: I do not. I do not know how to conceptualize who these people are to be making judgments about. I do not know. I do not know. I mean, the term for me is always in quotes you know. So it is hard to -

79:25
SM: And we had to define as it is that 15 percent who were activists.

79:29
PS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

79:29
SM: Because I say the eighty-five that were not they were subconsciously effective too.

79:34
PS: Yeah, yeah.

79:35
SM: But we are still talking almost twenty million people here.

79:37
PS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

79:39
SM: So you do not have any sense of whether they have they been able to share and pass this on to their kids? How about in the Native American community? Have they, they passed this on to their kids? What it was like in the (19)60s in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s and in the AIM movement? What have the AIM leaders done in terms of sharing?

80:03
PS: I think it is I do not think anybody has done very well. I think history is difficult. I think a lot of it is very complex and hard to synthesize and talk about. And I will say one thing though, I will say I gave a talk at California State University, Bakersfield last year. They had a lot of their class, had come to class, read my book of essays and the guy said he had read a whole bunch of books to get them mine because college freshmen are so hostile, are so hostile is the right word, are so uninterested in books that talk about diversity, or, you know, minority groups or you know, try to explain all this. That this is a group that is had Martin Luther King Day shoved down their throats every day since they are in kindergarten. And so I think now that you know, some form of, you know, diversity and multiculturalism, estate policy, especially, you know, nationally, especially in a place in California, kids hate it! Kids hate it! Because it is fake. Because it is a teacher telling you, you know, you ask kids about Martin Luther King is and they will say, he is a guy who died, you know. So it is like, finding a way, it is not just the intent. Of course the idea of Martin Luther King Day was a wonderful idea, I am not saying you should not have done it. But I am saying the distance between having intelligent dialogue about it or having people look at it closely, is very difficult to do. So, with the news the same thing we are trying to think about, you know, what was AIM in a sentence. I cannot explain that, you know. So, but I was interested in the fact that so many kids are basically out of there when you try to talk to them about, you know, Indian this or that or ̶ this or that nobody wants to hear about it because they have heard about it their whole life. I was in a position where you had to be oppositional to find out that stuff. It was not encouraged in school. So now we have a case where it is encouraged in schools. And I do not know if that is a good thing or not.

82:23
SM: Do you feel that? And again, I will often wonder what universities learned from the (19)60s and the (19)70s that they can apply today with young students and maybe start protesting against the Iraq and Afghanistan war, or other issues. Of course, there is no draft but as a guy who has been in higher ed(ucation) for thirty years, I do not think they have learned anything.

82:46
PS: Yeah.

82:46
SM: And, and, and I would like your observation, I only have the next last question. Your observation, our universities today and I mean, every university whether it be Ivy League, State University or community college, technical school I do not care what it is. Are they afraid of activist students? Are they afraid of the term activism knowing that today's generation of students are so into volunteerism that on any given campus between 90 percent and 95 percent of the students may be involved in volunteer work, which is great. But that is a certain number of times I am talking about a mentality of twenty-four to seven mentality about how one lives one's life, caring about the causes. Justice everywhere. So a poor family in Washington, DC we got to care about them! A person hungry in Afghanistan, and dying because we got to care about them! Just your thoughts on that.

83:44
PS: I do not know much about what universities are thinking these days. I really do not know if they are concerned about that or not.

83:50
SM: You go speak on college campuses?

83:52
PS: I do and it seems like there is a lot of activist minded people and their groups. You know, it seems like there is always kids out there looking for stuff, yeah.

84:03
SM: The last question I will not ask about these names here, but I want to repeat this because I think I lost that important segment where you were talking about how did you become who you are. If you could just repeat that for me because I think that is what I lost here on the tape that is very important how PS, how you became who you are. And certainly, the pride you have in your, your background.

84:31
PS: Oh, I think I am somebody who has a talent for writing and who is bad at everything else. So I have been fortunate enough to, you know, sort of through activism and, and then later through writing about things that interested me, you know, I am able to write successfully and find people that are interested in similar things. So, but it is mostly about being bad at everything else I think.

85:03
SM: Who? Who was? Did your parents inspire you to be a writer? Did your father, who was a professor. Did he say Paul jeez, looks like you got talent here. Did you have a teacher that says you got a talent here? How did you know that you were a good writer?

85:22
PS: I guess there was a teacher or two. Not so much my parents in terms of writing, I sort of became a writer kind of late. So it is hard to point to anything specific. So it was, I do not know, partly writing to figure out what I think I guess.

85:44
SM: And then to repeat that other thing, too, about, you know, your father, your mother, one's Native American and one is white, will you repeat that again, about your background, because that was what I think was hurt there. Where you came from and -

86:01
PS: Yeah, me and my two sisters report in West Texas. My mom Comanche my dad, a white guy from a farming family both from Oklahoma. And we lived in Ithaca, New York briefly and then -

86:19
SM: You know that is where I am from do not you?

86:20
PS: Ithaca. Right. Yeah. And then living mostly in Maryland, suburban Washington with a lot of connection to Oklahoma.

86:33
SM: Is there any last question? Last question: is there any questions I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?

86:45
PS: Seemed like a very comprehensive set of questions.

86:47
SM: I am worried that I botched that one. I think the Alcatraz one, you, I think we got enough here. Yeah, but let us hope this is okay. Okay.

(End of Interview)

2010-03-12

Stephen McKiernan

Paul Chaat Smith

87:01

English

Binghamton University Libraries

audio/mp4

Sound

2 Microcassettes

Audio

Comanche Indians; Authors; Essayists; Museum curators; Smith, Paul Chaat--Interviews

Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.

Bobby Seale; Pete O’Neal; Black Panthers; Native American/American Indian Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee; Alcatraz; Red Power; Leonard Garment; COINTELPRO; Wounded Knee; Robert Warrior; Raymond Yellow Thunder; Trail of Broken Treaties; Vine Deloria Jr.; Independent Oglala Nation; Self-Determination Act; Bureau of Indian Affairs; Clyde Merton Warrior; LaNada Means; U2 Incident; H. Rap Brown; The Weathermen; Richard Oakes; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Comanche.