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Interview with Jackie and John Visser
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Title
Interview with Jackie and John Visser
Contributor
Visser, Jackie ; Visser, John ; Gashurov, Irene
Description
Jackie is a lecturer in Education at Binghamton University; John was more of a stay-at-home father.
Date
2018-11-09
Rights
In Copyright
Identifier
Jackie and John Visser.mp3
Date Modified
2018-11-28
Is Part Of
Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
Extent
60:28 minutes
Transcription
Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Jackie and John Visser
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 8 November 2018
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(Start of Interview)
IG: 00:01
Okay, we are on now.
JV: 00:02
Okay. My name is Jackie Visser.
IG: 00:05
Yes.
JV: 00:05
I am I am working here at the Department of Teaching, Learning and Educational Leadership as a lecturer, and we are sitting in my office on November 8, 2018.
JoV: 00:15
I am John Visser, retired, in the same office. [crosstalk] [laughter]
IG: 00:25
Okay. So, you know, maybe we can answer certain questions sort of in tandem, you know, if anybody wants to
JV: 00:33
Jump in.
IG: 00:34
Jump in or digress, you know, it is up to you. It is a conversation that we are having with the two of you. So where did you grow up, Jackie?
JV: 00:45
I grew up on Long Island. I was West Islip. Is the name of the town. Lived there, went to school there. All my kindergarten through 12th grade classes were there, and then I came to Harpur College.
JoV: 01:02
I went to Goshen, New York High School, lived there for a long time, and came to Binghamton in it was July, the summer session of July, 1965 there were about four or 500 students, and that is when Harpur had the trimester situation. And each-each semester lasted for four months. And the summer session went July, August, September and October.
JV: 01:34
Parts of October.
IG: 01:36
So, Jackie, tell me a little bit about your upbringing. Did your parents go to college? What were their expectations for you? Was education valued in your family?
JV: 01:50
Education was certainly valued, but neither of my parents went to college. I mean, I was, we were part of that baby boom generation moved out to a development on Long Island. My father had been in the army. He was a factory worker. My mom ended up driving a school bus. But there was absolutely no doubt in anybody's mind that I was supposed to go to college. And that was just part of what my family was like, it was a, you know, I had two brothers who neither, one of whom went to college. But for some reason I am the one. I was the oldest and, and I know my-my father was one who just insisted that, you know, you get as much schooling as you possibly can so.
IG: 02:36
And why do you think that that was? Why do you think that you were, you know, selected in your family to go on to higher education? Your brothers were not well.
JV: 02:50
I think it might have been. I was the oldest, and I was and I was doing really well in school. So, I think they saw that possibility, whereas my next youngest brother was not getting all the A's, and he, you know, I think they were probably more opportunities for boys who did not have a college education at the time, as opposed to opportunities for women who did not have a college, college education. So, I do not know. I never really discussed it with them, why they, why they wanted that for me, but that that, maybe that was it.
IG: 03:31
Why did you decide to go to Harpur and not another school?
JV: 03:37
Well, cost was obviously a factor. Back in the (19)60s, there was this opportunity called the Regent Scholarship, which was paid for your entire tuition. And so state schools was obviously the goal, you know, was where I was going to go. Stony Brook was fairly close, but that would have meant, and I felt like I wanted to get away from from-from home, right? And guidance counselors really pushed me here. There was, there were three or four of us from my high school who ended up coming here.
IG: 04:15
What did, what was the reputation of Harpur College back then?
JV: 04:20
It was, it was, it was-
IG: 04:21
What did they say about it? Your guidance counselors?
JV: 04:24
-highly selective, hard to get into. They encouraged me to apply for the summer semester, the summer trimester.
IG: 04:33
I see.
JV: 04:34
Because supposedly the trimester, the summer session was-was easier to get into than the than the fall semester trimester. So, I do not know. I do not know if I would have gotten into the fall semester or not. You know, I was a good student. I had pretty good SATs, I guess, but I do not know. I was too naive to understand all that at the time.
IG: 04:55
Did you have an idea of what you wanted to what studies you wanted to pursue?
JV: 04:59
Absolutely not never. [laughs] Oh, did not I? We had the luxury those days of being in a liberal arts college.
IG: 05:12
I remember.
JV: 05:14
Started out as a math major, that list about two semesters, tried economics for a while. That did not last too long. Ended up graduating as a sociology major. Ended up getting enough Bs in those courses to graduate.
IG: 05:34
So, we will return to that. We will return to your academics and other things. How about you, John?
JoV: 05:43
My family, I was the first in my family to go to college. My parents, my dad was born in the Netherlands, my mother was born in Poland, and they were absolutely adamant that I needed to go to school and to college and to get ahead. And I mean, they were very insisted, both my brother and I went to school. And it was there was no question my neither my dad, went through like eighth grade. My mother completed like through the third or fourth grade, and she had lived in Poland and in war she was she had been relocated to Germany as a forced laborer. And my dad had been relocated to Germany as a forced laborer from the Netherlands, and that was where they meant. So, it was very insistent that we go to school. And again, like Jackie said about the reason I went to Harpur, means it was all the guidance counselors touted it as a very selective place. Liberal Arts, the most difficult one of the universities in the state of New York, the public ones to get into. And I like Jackie, I wanted to get away from home, and this sounded like the place to be. And one, one of my reasons for coming during the summer trimester was to play soccer. I was a soccer player, and you-you could all by the time the fall semester trimester started, it would be the season be over. So, if you want to play soccer, you had to come during the middle of the summer. But there being so few students. We were very-very slim pickings. You know, people who had any experience at all mean 400 total students. That means 200 male students. How many soccer players are there? Not a whole lot.
IG: 07:31
Not a whole lot.
JV: 07:32
Camps- Camp Harpur is what we called it. You know, it was-
IG: 07:35
In the summertime?
JV: 07:36
Oh, yeah, it was very it was as empty a campus as it is now. Well, remember, it was a much smaller campus, you know.
JoV: 07:43
But there was a lot of construction going on.
IG: 07:45
It was here. It was here.
JV: 07:47
Yeah, already.
JoV: 07:48
It was already here. But and it was the beginning of a big boom. I mean, there was construction everywhere. And I think for the next 10 years we had perpetual construction going on-on all the sites.
IG: 08:01
Could I ask, just out of my own curiosity, why did your immigrant parents come to Goshen rather than New York City or some other, you know, immigrant magnet?
JoV: 08:15
Well, I mean, it turns out my dad had relatives [crosstalk] pre immigrated. They had already here. So, I see, you know, he needed a place where, you know, he could have some touch with, you know, somebody, and I think, couple of his brothers and one of his sisters already here. But one of his one of his sisters immigrated to Australia, and out of a family of seven, there was only one that remained in the Netherlands after everybody wanted, you know, did all the relocating.
IG: 08:47
Very interesting.
JV: 08:50
If you want to do research [crosstalk]
IG: 08:52
Yeah. Extremely interesting. That is extremely interesting. So, you know, so, what are some of the early impressions of the college? when you first arrived, you said that it was undergoing, you know, construction, virtual, you know, perpetual construction. There were very few students. What were, who were the students in your classes? You know, how were they all from New York City, some from upstate, you know, describe what the milieu was like.
JoV: 09:27
Well, preponderance of people were from New York City, but there were definitely people from the Buffalo area, the Syracuse area, a few local people, not, not a whole lot. But, you know, I think the admissions people at the university at Harpur College made it a point to bring in people from all over the state. I do not think we had very many people from out of state, but a few foreign students.
IG: 09:53
From where?
JoV: 09:55
One of the people I knew came from Iran, another one from Africa somewhere. And they were on, I do not know how they had gotten in, but, you know, we-we had made friends with them, and because I knew they want a soccer team, because they were the best, most experienced soccer players. But I mean, I think you are right. I mean, half the people would you say, dear come from- ame from New York City, Long Island area, at least.
JV: 10:22
That was, that was I lived on in the dormitory, and that is where, I mean, that is how I got basically introduced to New York, you know, visiting them on breaks and spending time with them, because I met them, you know, I was farther out on Long Island. We did not go into the city a lot, so, but most of our friends were, were definitely Queens and Manhattan in the Bronx and folks. And then there were some people from Long Island. As I said, there at least two-two came with me. Two classmates of mine from my high school came here. But we did know a lot of folks from-from the Buffalo area and upstate New York.
IG: 11:03
Were there any, you know, I imagine that the differences were slight, the cultural differences between upstate students and New York City students. Did you notice any of these? But you were, you came from such a multi-multi home. So, you must have felt very different.
JoV: 11:23
The student body was mostly middle class. Most of the students that I met were, if not first time, you know, generation college students, then you know, maybe it had brothers or sisters, but they were very much middle class. And, you know, we got along in that because we were- all had the same experiences. I did not find anybody who you know. My father was a doctor. My father has been- my father was a lawyer. My grandfather has been a lawyer. I did not experience that at all. This is all. We were all here together for first time. See what it was like.
JV: 11:55
Yeah, that is pretty much. I cultural differences, not really.
IG: 12:00
Not really.
JV: 12:00
I mean, I think we the biggest cultural learning that took place for me was learning about more Jewish traditions and cultures. I mean, I remember making matzah brei in the dorm and, you know, just understanding Jewish traditions and cultures and foods and things like that. But other than that, I do not remember.
JoV: 12:25
The other thing was the different dialects of New York. Yeah, people from Buffalo speak differently than people from Long Island, than the people from Brooklyn, than the people from Albany, New York, and the people who were, you know, in the Binghamton area. And that was my always sensitivity to, "Wow, I know where you are from. You are from Rochester, perhaps closer to Buffalo, but definitely in that neck of the woods." And-
IG: 12:48
So, you have, you have a very good ear.
JoV: 12:51
I tend to listen very carefully, and, you know, try to pinpoint where people's accents come from.
JV: 12:59
And he tried to beat the Long Island accent out of me. [laughter]
JoV: 13:07
30, 40 years. But Jackie's Long Island accent has now disappeared and is now she is a local.
IG: 13:15
So, what are some ticks of Binghamton locals’ speech ticks?
JV: 13:23
I know that you ask, it is kind of hard to think there is [crosstalk]
IG: 13:31
I mean, it is not, it is not necessary for the interview, but if you can think of it, I am just taking this because I do not have it watch. So
JV: 13:40
I cannot think of anything.
IG: 13:42
You cannot think of anything. I think that there is sort of, you know, a little to a voice, but I cannot, you know, I will identify it when I hear it, but I am [crosstalk]
JoV: 13:52
More nasally twang. There is a there are some colloquialisms that are definitely Binghamtonian and but, you know the one-
JV: 14:03
It is a double negative that use.
JoV: 14:05
So do not I.
JV: 14:06
Yeah, so do not I, you know, you know, "I really like brownies." "Well, so do not I, "you know,
JV: 14:13
Oh-oh, that is very interesting.
JoV: 14:15
It just struck us as, you know [crosstalk]
IG: 14:19
That is so interesting.
JV: 14:21
The bars would serve tomato pie, Hot Pie. You know, they would advertise instead of pizza, it was called Hot Pie. Let us go to Mike's and get a hot pie.
JoV: 14:30
Culinary city chicken, which is, I do not think it is, I do not know why it is called city, and I do not think it is chicken.
JV: 14:37
Pork in it, I think. [crosstalk] like meat on a stick. [laughs] I do not know how else to describe it, but just, but how much, how much of some of those things were just regional, and how much was growing up? Because you got to remember, you know, when you are we are finally 18, and now you are on your own, and you are navigating things on your own. So, is it really? Is it really that much different from where I grew up, or is it just the stage of life now, where I am learning about the world? So, I always, you know-
JV: 15:00
Yeah, it is what you-
JV: 15:07
Yeah.
IG: 15:08
You know what you are paying attention to.
JV: 15:11
Exactly.
IG: 15:12
So, what was, what were the academics like? Were you- are there any professors that stand out, any courses that stand out in your mind that kind of determined you to take a certain route in your career?
JoV: 15:32
I would like to answer that.
IG: 15:34
Yes.
JoV: 15:34
Is- the fact that we are in a liberal art we I took an art course from a professor Wilson who designed JFK memorial in Downtown Binghamton, and the fact that he was instructing freshmen was always amazing to me. Here is an established artist and taking liberal arts courses from various people and who had real academic standing. And I did not, you know it was the anthropology courses, the-the economic courses, but it just the, just the broadness. I mean, I guess you know, being-being, having become, becoming well rounded in various fields, that was the most interesting thing to me. Sometimes I had to redirect myself. "Oh, you got to take these courses." And it was just I was never that interested in, you know, I was always more interested in finding more courses, different courses to take. And that was really quite intriguing.
JV: 16:30
I have to admit, I was not a student. That was not
JoV: 16:32
You were a student.
JV: 16:34
I was. I managed to get through. I did get a degree, but classes and courses, that was not what interested me on campus. I would that was not who I was. [laughs] so-
IG: 16:46
Who were you on campus?
JV: 16:48
I was a member of lots of campus activities, you know, I- there was a poster, the-the-the I was a member of the student council board, the student center board. It says, presented by the student center board, yeah, and so we, they would bring, and I was on, it was on dorm governance, and just various organizations on campus that that was something that really-
IG: 17:17
So, what were so, what-what did these organizations, what did the Mitchell trio?
JV: 17:24
It was the folk trio--there was a concert, yeah. So, they had the-
IG: 17:27
John Denver, the John Denver.
JV: 17:29
Yes.
IG: 17:29
Oh, wow.
JoV: 17:30
Yeah.
JoV: 17:30
Oh, you Chad Mitchell trio. Before-before became John Denver, he was part of a trio.
IG: 17:35
Oh, I have no I had no idea.
JV: 17:39
And after the concert, you know, he and his guitar went over to somebody's house in Johnson City, and he serenaded us all again, you know,
IG: 17:46
How wonderful.
JV: 17:48
We talked about. We brought Simon and Garfunkel to campus and paid them, like, less than $2,000 for the concert down in the gym, the first gym.
JoV: 18:00
Obviously, before they got really really-really expensive.
JV: 18:03
That is, that is wonderful. So-so that was your activity. It was finding those groups-
JV: 18:09
Finding those groups and being involved with the people, you know, the other students who were part of that, you know, that was what really interested me, as opposed to, I got through my classes. But I that was where-
IG: 18:22
So, what-what, you know, were students talking about? What did they care about during this time?
JoV: 18:29
Let me, let me answer [crosstalk] a little bit. This was in the days 1965 all young men who were not in college were going to be drafted. And I can tell you, I mean, that was the number one topic, the war in Vietnam was going full tilt, and if you got kicked out of school, did not come to school, you were going to get drafted and you were going to go to Vietnam. And I can tell you that all the male students, that was their overriding concern. They may have had. They might have had career goals. They might have been pursuing a degree in something they really want. But this stood above all. I mean, this was always on your mind. So-
IG: 19:07
Do you feel that it was a, an anxiety that everyone shared, all men shared?
JV: 19:13
Gap year.
JoV: 19:13
Gap year out of it. I mean, that was out of the question. You know, you want a gap year, you got to be drafted. So, it was definitely on everyone's mind, overriding every single day. You know, we get through and-and the war news. I mean, it just got worsened from 1965 to (19)66 to (19)67 to (19)68 I mean, the war just grew more and more intense. And, you know, the body count was really quite horrific. I graduated from Goshen High with there were 125 students. And there were, there were two people, I know who died. One of them lived on my street. And these were guys, young men, who did not go to college. They, you know, graduate high school, and within six months, they were in Vietnam, and within a year, they were dead. So, I, I felt that it was really, really tough going.
JoV: 19:13
Oh, definitely. I mean, a lot of students, I among them, what do they call that? When you, when you, when you when you graduate from high school and you have a you take a year off,
IG: 20:19
So, it, you know, it colored the mood. It colored the sort of the like the-
JV: 20:23
Well, and then, and then, you know, we were, I am thinking the world. We were not as actively involved in protests, but that is what was starting to happen on campus. You know, that, that you were, you became very much aware of that there were, there were people around the country who were actively against the war, that were actively protesting against the war. I remember we- I think we finally did march from the campus to downtown-
JoV: 20:47
1968.
JV: 20:47
-1968 involved in a protest. But we were not, we did not occupy the administration building, because that is in my mind, that is not who I was protesting against. But I It was not. It was in 1970 was Kent State, was not it? So it was, we were still in the area, and you know that they, they closed the camp- they just sent in May of or rather, it was in April. So, there was still several more weeks now. Think about all that happens on a campus in April and May. In April, every single, just about every single university in this country since, said, "Go home. Just go home now."
JoV: 21:33
And I remember-
JV: 21:34
Go home.
JoV: 21:35
And students met with the profs, and the prof said, “What kind of grade you want? Because, you know, we are shutting down. We are not doing any more final exams. We are not having any more classes. We are concluding this semester after Kent State, because we do not want the whole thing to blow up.” I mean, I mean, that was the kind of tension that Amnesty- 1965 the war was in a very low-level state. But it just grew and grew and grew and, you know, I- it was just an incredible build up and-and we knew some people who, I knew some people who either had had left school or flunked out, and then, you know, we had heard, oh, they were, you know, they were in the army, or a few of them went to Canada, you know there, and I have never seen some of those people again.
IG: 22:26
So, but the campus did have some protests?
JoV: 22:31
Oh yeah.
IG: 22:32
But-but did you go on marches on Washington, or?
JV: 22:39
No, it was just here. Yeah-yeah. I am sure there were students who there were busses and things to Washington. We just did not do that.
JoV: 22:46
I mean, I would not call Bingham- Harpur College an activist.
JV: 22:49
Yeah, we were not Columbia.
JoV: 22:51
I mean, there were, there were people who were active, but not, not like Berkeley or Columbia.
IG: 22:57
Yeah, um, so, you know, so when did you meet? When did you when did you meet? When were you together?
JV: 23:13
John's roommate, he lived off campus, and my roommate were dating, and several of us would John-John had a car that was, and we would go out. And remember, the drinking age was 18 at the time, and so we would go out and have beers and hot pies and speedies and whatever.
IG: 23:32
And this is when, what-
JV: 23:33
-in the neighborhood bars, 19-
JoV: 23:34
1967, 1968.
JV: 23:35
(19)68 so we were just part of a group of people who palled around and then eventually started dating.
IG: 23:44
Right. So, you knew each other since then?
JV: 23:48
Yeah, but mainly his-his roommate and my roommate were dating, and so I got to know him that way.
IG: 23:56
So, you know, I am thinking about the war, and you said that Harpur was not an activist school, per se, and yet, there was a lot of activity on campus that was sort of, you know, politicized. People were politicized here. So, were you part of any kind of, I do not know, paper or radio?
JV: 24:19
No, I just was not, I was not that. I was more. I mean, even now, you know, we are good citizens and vote and stuff, but I have not been too much on Washington with my pink hat or anything, you know. I mean, I am support liberal ideas and contribute money and things like that, but not I am just done an activist kind of person.
IG: 24:42
What were, what was the significance of, you know, the folk musicians, like the Mitchell Trio?
JV: 24:49
They were fun. I mean, I remember what- who was that it became the kosher kitchen. But remember, there was a little coffee house, one of that little way the Fleishman Center is now, and the student, you. Union. And, you know, there people would bring guitars and play folk music, and then the Bill Barker or Bob Barker, what is his name?
IG: 25:08
You know, was not it a change in sort of, you know, youth culture, because from-from all of the you know, folk musicians, they were, you know, Peter, Paul and Mary, for example, yeah, when I know Dylan, they all had, you know, a message of social change-
JV: 25:25
Right.
IG: 25:25
-political change-
JV: 25:26
Right-right, yeah, definitely.
IG: 25:27
Were you kind of alive to that, to that aspect of them?
JV: 25:32
Yeah.
JoV: 25:34
I mean, Bob Dylan, you know, was played in dorms from 1965 I mean, just repeatedly, everyone, almost everyone, was involved with Dylan. I mean, it was really the first off campus event I went to in New York, was to see a Dylan concert. I mean, I had seen a bunch on, you know, other concerts on campus, but where I really went out of my way to see Bob Dylan. And-
IG: 26:01
Where did you see him? Do you remember?
JoV: 26:05
I saw him--I think it was Carnegie Hall.
IG: 26:07
Oh.
JoV: 26:07
And it was one of his first electric concerts, and he sort of, he did some acoustic guitar the first half, and then he brought on his electric organ and-and he got booed [crosstalk] yes. And, you know, because they were, there were some purists in the audience. And then, you know, I think he eventually won them over, or at least the majority of the audience was won over. But Dylan, to me, is, I mean, I have, you know, as a friend of mine says, "John, have you, you know, bought all his vinyls?" I said, "I try," so very, you know, I think that whole theme of anti-war from him. I mean, I know there were others, other musicians, but I not, not, not as much as him.
JV: 26:36
Yeah, no. And I mean, the whole counterculture kind of attitude, you know, do not trust anyone under over 30. And you know, knowing that, that you have some, you ae going to have some responsibility for moving you know that, that I definitely felt that I was, was part of me, but-but I just was not, you know, I was not a, an activist kind of person. [crosstalk]
IG: 27:26
Your-your future life to be sort of along the same path as your family, as your mother and father. Did you think that you would get married and then, you know, have children and retire, or did you, did you envision a different future for yourself?
JoV: 27:49
I could just speak for myself that I did not my-my concern was- what was going to happen after the four years when my deferment is up. I really was incapable of thinking much beyond that. Is there life after, after schools? Do not know. You know, am I going to live in the United States or not? Do not know. Am I going to be alive? I do not know it was, it was that overwhelming. I, if I may, I will tell you one story, when, when did the draft started to not to end, but they had a lottery. I do not know if you remember that. And every, every young man in the country was now, because there was so such a differential in various areas. I mean, some people were drafted, some people were not. So, they have a lottery, so everybody was going to get a number. And then every so we were listening to the Harpur radio station. Jackie and I were driving in the car, and they were reading the numbers
JV: 28:43
Based on your birthday.
JoV: 28:44
So, if they read this is number one, April 27 that means that you were going to be the first one called. And if you get a high number, you were probably not going to be called. So, we were trying to listen for my birthday. It was 365,366 you know; dates they have to go through. So, we finally get the campus and we, you know, what number did you get? What I mean, that was the, you know, that was it. And after that, I mean, I got a relatively high number, and I that was the first time. I do not know when that happened. It was early 1970 late 1969 I finally could think of, oh, yeah, now, you know-
JV: 29:15
But you had already got, you had gone for a physical just before that.
JoV: 29:18
Oh yeah. I mean, I mean-
JV: 29:18
John, John extended, you know I mean the draft, a full-time student was four classes. But what I mean, most students were taking 16 credits, four classes, but you could still be considered full time if you were taking three for the and if you were full time, you were going to get this exemption. So, John, sort of like, spread things out. You took a long time. I graduated in December of (19)69 but you did not graduate. Well, you that Kent State erupted, you know.,
JoV: 29:51
But three courses, I mean, was no reason for me to take four courses. We might. Am I going to finish earlier? And so finally, you know, I had, I. And run out the string. And then the Selective Service in Goshen and said, you know, your time is up. You have used your four years since you matriculated at Harpur. And so, they sent me for a physical in Syracuse. And then this lottery, I said, “But the lottery, you are still going for a physical, okay?”
JV: 30:18
But it was like, within days the lottery came about, and he did never get drafted.
IG: 30:23
People do not appreciate what a sense of tension, of anxiety-
JV: 30:30
Control. It was a controlled {crosstalk]
IG: 30:32
Control over a huge, you know, swath of young people, psychologically. What that meant for them later on, you know, or during that time.
JoV: 30:45
I took a bus from the Binghamton Federal Building to Syracuse and had a physical, and then got into some disagreement with some of the military people, not just, you know, and they wanted me to stay overnight, to do something else. And I said "No," and they said, "You are not getting back on the bus." I said, "That is all right." So, I called Jackie, and she had to drive up to Syracuse and pick me up. And I was, I was outraged. I mean, I was, I was fuming. I was just-
JV: 31:13
I am afraid now that the police are going to come and guard him away because arrest him. Are we going to Canada now?
JoV: 31:21
That was the, you know, I do, but luckily, you know, the everything was held in abeyance until this lottery. And then, I mean, that was the beginning of a new, new page. Okay, now, what am I going to do?
IG: 31:35
So, what did you do?
JoV: 31:35
Well, Jackie had started teaching in in Johnson City. So, I said, "Well, I might as well try that too." And, you know, I really had no plans. I had no idea, you know, we live here and, well, at least for the time being. You know, this is easy. I cannot I cannot fathom moving and starting, oh, you know, just, let us settle down and for at least a couple of years. And a couple of years turned into next 40 years.
JV: 32:01
Your career. Yeah, yeah. I had sworn all along I was never going to teach, but I went to the New York State Employment Agency looking for a job after I graduated, and they sent me to a Catholic school who needed a fourth-grade teacher, and they hired me. And that is, you know, I am now teaching in the department of teaching, learning, educational leadership. So, you know, who knew I-I had no idea.
IG: 32:27
Fell into that career both you.
JV: 32:29
never in the, you know, in 1965 Did I imagine I myself being a teacher.
IG: 32:35
So, so tell me a little bit about your career trajectories, you know. So, you-you kind of fell into the teaching profession, and what happened, you know? Give us an overview.
JV: 32:48
I taught in the Catholic schools. I just thought I figured out I like teaching and I wanted to continue. So, I worked to get my teaching credentials from New York State and found a job. I was hired by the Union Endicott school district as a reading teacher because I had taken a number of reading courses as I was working toward my credential, and taught reading there for 12 years. And then I became I-I had, in New York State, you need a master's degree. So, I had managed to get a master's degree in reading at the University of Scranton, and talked to my principal at the time, and I said, "Okay, so now what?" And he said, he says "We should think about administration." So, I continued taking courses, became the principal of the of an elementary school, and then director of elementary education and then Assistant Superintendent when I retired, and I am a lecturer here. I am not on a tenure track that I was an adjunct and of the five faculty members one year, two of them left to take other positions, and they really were kind of desperate. They said, well, here, you know, become a full-time person, and that was 13 years ago. So, I have been doing that. I have been here ever since. So, what do you do here? I teach courses in the literacy program. We prepare young men and women to be teachers, to get their credential, and then when another faculty member left who was in charge of the Educational Administration program. They asked me to be that program coordinator. So now I am working in the program. I am coordinating the program that prepares men and women to be principals and supervisors and that sort of thing in schools. They picked me because I-I had one of those jobs, so they figured, I must know what I am doing.
IG: 34:43
That is very interesting. Do you, do you have, do you offer a doctoral program in the Education Department?
JV: 34:49
Yeah, we do, but in curriculum and instruction, it was not a leadership program, but it was just, it was, it was a, it was an EDD.
IG: 34:58
So, you do not offer an EDD? In leadership? No, we do not know.
JV: 35:02
Although our- the courses that we offer are 600 are 600 level courses in can be the ED leadership courses can be used as electives and the doctor courses, but it is not any, any DD in leadership.
IG: 35:18
I see, I see. I am just curious.
JV: 35:21
Okay.
IG: 35:24
So, you know this is, what about your family life? Did you have-
JV: 35:32
One son.
IG: 35:32
Yeah, you have one son.
JV: 35:34
Yep, Andy, yep. He is 38 now. [laughs]
IG: 35:42
And is he- is he in the vicinity?
JV: 35:45
He is, he is living in Athens Georgia currently, because he is married to a woman who is in a doctoral program there. So, she has, she will be, they will be leaving in May for her internship, and we do not know where they are going to be.
JV: 36:04
[laughs] I am not even sure he is coming home for Thanksgiving.
IG: 36:04
That is, that is the way of grown children, and you do not know where they are going inaudible]
IG: 36:04
You might have to go there.
JV: 36:10
No, we were not going there, but he might. He said, "Yeah-yeah, we are coming, but we have-"
IG: 36:20
So, I am curious also, what you know the women's movement happened in the early (19)70s. It was you were off campus by then. But did you feel signs that you know, attitudes toward women and expectations of women were shifting or not?
JV: 36:51
Of course, they were, yeah. They were definitely shifting. I mean, even my sights were, you know, were higher, you know, that, that I could do it, but, but were there still obstacles, you know? Yeah, not everything was apparent that we could do. I still remember one of the administrators in the school district calling us all girls, you know. And I finally had enough courage to request politely that please stop calling us girls. “You know, we are not girls.” He meant it; you know. I mean, he was very polite, caring man. He just needed to be informed that we were not finding it grating, right to be to refer to as girls. But, yeah, I mean, I we women- we very concerned about women getting to becoming, getting into elected office and supporting women who were in elected office. Look, looking up to those people. I mean, I still remember Geraldine Ferraro being nominated as about for a vice president, you know, all those things were eye opening and but yet,
IG: 38:08
Did you, did you have a supportive husband?
JV: 38:12
Absolutely.
IG: 38:12
Yes, supportive of your wife's career.
JoV: 38:16
I when Jackie got her master's in Scranton. Scranton is an hour's drive, I mean, and going through the winter, it was, it was difficult. And I, you know, she went with somebody. And finally, she says, “You know, there is got to be better way, quicker way” and she says, “You know, Scranton is a Catholic University. If I go there in the summer, I can live with the nuns and spend four days a week there. Get all my work done. Come on weekend.” I said, “God bless you. Go.” And it turned out to be a real boon for both of us. I mean, it saved her a lot of driving time, and she had very little work, because she says nuns are not that [crosstalk]
JV: 38:53
There was nothing else to do. [crosstalk] late, later, late evening, because people were teaching, or working or something. So, I would have, like all day to do my coursework, and then I would come home after my last class on Thursday and not have to be back until my class on Monday. And I did not, except for the toward the end, when the papers were due, when you had to type them on your old electric type writer, remember.
IG: 39:19
Yes.
JoV: 39:20
You had an electric one?
IG: 39:22
Yeah, I remember [crosstalk]
JV: 39:24
With carbon paper and erasable paper. Remember when they finally invented erasable paper. I do not know if you remember that.
IG: 39:32
I do not remember the erasable-
JV: 39:34
White out.
IG: 39:35
White out. Certainly, white out. erasable paper?
JV: 39:38
They had it. They had a when they when they invented erasable bond, you know, then you could actually get rid of the type without making crosstalk]
IG: 39:47
That is right. Now, I do remember I see it. It was, it was a very long time ago.
JV: 39:51
Yeah, if you had an expensive IBM, then it had that white out, or actually-
IG: 39:55
Right-right-right. So-so you were a supportive husband. Jackie was telling me a little bit about giving her giving me an outline of her career trajectory. Could you tell us what your career was like?
JV: 40:17
John was a very supportive husband. He basically raised our son. He was, yeah, he was the- he was done lots and lots of different kinds of things, but I was the career person. I was the one who did that. And he was, he was the, he was the one I we have a colleague who was lamenting the fact that she had a class and could not go to her son's open house. And I said I never saw my son off to school on the first day, you know, that big event where you take pictures and stuff never happened. Because I was always meeting 400 other kids somewhere. Yeah. So, when you talk about changing roles of women, and we were, we were, we were one of the first families where, you know, I was the main career person, and John was the person who was raising, put, keeping the family together and raising the family, you know, taking all care of all the right stuff that needed to be care of.
IG: 41:16
So, you know, now it is nor normative.
JV: 41:19
Yeah.
IG: 41:19
But then, did you experience any criticism? Or, you know, nothing from-
JV: 41:26
Not really.
IG: 41:27
No nothing. Did you what did you feel, John?
JoV: 41:30
I mean, I would meet when-when my son was smaller, I, you know, would take him grocery shopping. And I would always meet other little children who were there with their mothers, and lot of them were teachers whom I knew, and they kind of look at my son was like, well, you know, Dad, it is okay, yeah. So it was, it was different. I mean, not like, you know, today, obviously, but there was some pressure. But as I said, I always worried about more about my son than about myself and he, you know, kids just seem to, you know, no problem. So.
IG: 42:07
So how did you keep yourself, you know, you took care of your family, of your son, your wife, you know what-how did you did you pursue your intellectual interests that you developed in college. How did you do that?
JV: 42:27
John is the most voracious reader you have ever met in your whole entire life. We subscribe to at least three newspapers.
JoV: 42:36
That would be real, physical newspapers, the kind you throw into the fireplace and they-they ignite.
JV: 42:39
Put in the bottom of the bird case.
IG: 42:42
So, what do you read? What-what papers do you read?
JoV: 42:46
We said, The Wall Street Journal comes every day, the times comes on Sunday, and the local paper comes on Sunday. So, you know, our newspaper carrier has she-she deserves a lot of rewards, because on Sundays, you know, the local paper, at the times, there is a, you know, sometimes the five or six pounds with papers come, so.
IG: 43:07
It is nice. It is nice to read the-the physical paper. I mean, I read everything online these days.
JoV: 43:15
I you know, I mean, I know Jackie reads a lot of it online. I still have some difficulty. I mean, I when you get a paper subscription, you can read it online. And a lot of times I will start, I just cannot.
IG: 43:26
Yeah, it is more pleasurable.
JoV: 43:28
Yeah. And so, I mean, the New York Times is a habit from college doing crossword together. And, I mean, it is 40 years of, you know, got to have that-
JV: 43:42
50,50.
JoV: 43:42
I am sorry, 50 years. Got to have that New York Times fix.
IG: 43:45
Yeah. Do you feel that you know the-the answer is obvious to me, but do you feel that you know Harpur College played a key role in kind of opening you up intellectually-
JoV: 44:01
For me yes, definitely. I mean, I, you know, you take the high school courses. You do well, but it is like the broadening, the things that you find out and, you know, there is another whole world out there. I remember Jackie and I took a theater course, which was really, you know, incredible, you know, it is like, wow, this is what it is all about. I took astronomy and geology. I mean, a lot of the Harpur students were biology students and chemistry students. And I said, “Well, I really want to take these other ones” and just, you know, it is like, wow, there is, there are a lot of different things. So today I hear my son, who went to RPI, I mean, almost all his courses were in computer science. And I am thinking a lot of people are linear. You know, be a liberal arts student. There is, there is really nothing wrong with it that makes a human being.
IG: 44:52
I think I-I agree. I agree. And I also think that the theater department here is really top Notch. Did you stay in touch with the campus? Did you continue going, you know, did you go to concerts, to theater productions here together?
JV: 45:11
We kick ourselves that we do not go to more, yeah, but we definitely stay, you know, involved. We have never left. It has, it has been part of our lives. We live, you know, five miles and way in Endicott, and it has just always been, you know, we have been here forever.
JoV: 45:28
We have been part of the Alumni Association since we graduated down now, if Jackie spoke, she was, she spent maybe a year and a half as the director of-
JV: 45:36
Yeah, actually worked. I was, I was president of the Alumni Association.
IG: 45:40
Oh, wow.
JV: 45:41
And then while I was president, the gentleman who was employed by us as the director, got into some kind of-he left. And so, I took over. I took a leave of absence from my teaching and took over as the-the interim director, while they were doing a search.
IG: 46:05
When was that?
JV: 46:06
Andy was just born, so it was (19)80-
JoV: 46:09
(19)82 or (19)83.
JV: 46:10
No, was not he still nursing, I think? Yep, 80- was it (19)81, (19)82?
IG: 46:15
Yeah, but interesting.
JoV: 46:17
For a year?
JV: 46:19
Nine months. It was from January to September. I went back to teaching in September. So, um.
JoV: 46:26
So, our connection to the university has been-
IG: 46:29
It is very deep. Did you- do you think that your-your grounding in liberal arts informed sort of you know your son's well, your son chose computer science. I do not know what he does, but-but do you think that that it was part of his upbringing that you encouraged him to read-
JV: 46:51
He had a dual degree in in social sciences, you know, he-
JoV: 46:55
Psychology.
JV: 46:56
-psychology, he, you know he. I think he likes to think of himself as a renaissance man. Yeah, you know he-
JoV: 47:02
But unfortunately, he has never had a job outside [crosstalk]
JV: 47:06
Yeah, he earns his money one way. But yeah, he is an avid reader. He, which pleases me no end as a reading teacher. I remember. I mean, one of the things that just, I just loved, was he has a very-very close friend. And even in as they left high school and during college, his they would give birthday gifts or Christmas gifts to one another. And they were books, you know, they were not CDs and games. They were books. They would share books. And I am thinking, oh my, we did something, right? You know, like-
JoV: 47:40
The connection to Harpur. I just should add my son's middle name is Harpur.
IG: 47:45
Oh, my goodness.
JoV: 47:46
So, we-we had a tough time agreeing on a first name, and finally we decided, both of us, and it was no objection at all. You know, Andrew Harpur Visser.
IG: 47:46
Oh, wow.
IG: 47:53
That is, that is, that is a huge endorsement of your experience. You know, I do not know there is a better word for it. You know, your love-
JoV: 47:53
So.
JoV: 48:11
Exactly.
IG: 48:13
-for this, for this experience. I am just wondering. You know, this is kind of off of tangent a little bit. But what is illiteracy- you know, what is the illiteracy rate here in Broome County? And do you teach children, young people or adults or everyone?
JV: 48:38
I do not teach the children. I teach the teachers.
IG: 48:41
You teach the teachers, right.
JV: 48:43
What is the illiteracy rate? It is, it is, well, if you think, if you think about the big test that has to be taken in New York State, and you have to pass it, probably, probably about 30 percent of the students are not passing the test.
IG: 48:59
Wow.
JV: 49:00
Yeah, depending on which grade level or, you know, which test you are in, what you are looking for, but that is the test, you know, there is you could not do well on a test, but still, but still be able to function real well. So right now, what is your definition of illiteracy? You know, it is, it is kind of hard to tell I wish one of the things that we all worry about as teachers is not necessarily students’ inability to read. It is students’ reluctance to read. You know, the motivation social being on social media all the time and not finding joy and rewards of books. You know, as a librarian, you probably worry about as well.
IG: 49:46
Yeah, and we have programs, we have literacy both for, I think it is, it is, it is not literacy for reading, but it is literacy in research. In understanding sources in, you know, separating fake news from real news. In technology literacy, so different kinds of literacy that librarians increasingly teach, you know, and that we have, but I will tell you about those programs later. So, you know, I am thinking, you know, we are kind of wrapping up, and I would like to ask you, what are some of the important lessons that you learned from this time in your life at Harpur College?
JoV: 50:40
Really, very difficult to-
JV: 50:44
We grew up. I do not know if it is a lesson, but we just, you know, I remember my 20th birthday thinking, “Oh, my God, I am an adult now. I am 20. It is, it is different. You know, what am I going to do? Where am I going? What is going on with my life?” But by the time we muddled through, you know, graduation and those first years, okay, I can do this. I can, I can. I am capable. I can. I think, I think one of the things I told you I was not a great student, but I was involved in lots of organizations that taught me an awful lot, you know, that-
IG: 51:26
Gave you confidence.
IG: 51:27
It is a special ability, getting people to do what needs to be done, and having them enjoy what they are doing.
JV: 51:27
Right.
JV: 51:27
Gave me confidence, you know, some leadership ability, organizational things, the things you know, my maybe, maybe not my teaching career, but my administrative career. And I was a school administrator for more years than I was a teacher actually. I traced back to-to being on the student center board and figuring out that, you know, we need a contract for the, you know, for the Mitchell Trio guys. And not only do you just sign the contract, but then somebody has to pick them up at the airport, and what are you going to do, you know, all that kind of marshaling people. I was not the leader of it, but understanding, getting to see people do those things, you know, then I could become president of the Alumni Association.
JoV: 51:50
I mean, for me, I think it was in a chaotic time that the university held was stability. It kept things. Was something for me to lean on whenever things got really out of kilter, and this was, this is where I knew I could go back to and-and, you know, retain some sanity or in a crazy world. And, you know, it was, it was not necessarily teaching me something. I mean, we have talked about this previously, but, you know, the moment that, like, we could not think beyond I could not think beyond it. And so, you know, that forced me to concentrate on the university as a place where, you know, it was stable. It was a place where I could always rely on and, you know, whatever, whatever came, whatever was to happen in the future.
IG: 53:12
It was, it was your escape. It was your sort of, you know, zone. No?
JoV: 53:20
It was away from the world [crosstalk]
IG: 53:25
The pressures of the David.
JoV: 53:29
I mean, we were, when we were here, we were fully involved from dawn till dusk. We were there was classes, athletics, playing cards, meeting with friends. I mean, this university was our life really was and, and I remember the first after the first summer I when I decided to work in the Binghamton area during a break, my parents said, "Well, you are sure you are going to be able to handle it up there, you know, because you, you know you are not going to be home,” Yeah. This is, this is, you know, I felt feel bad.
IG: 54:05
It became home.
JoV: 54:06
Yeah, exactly.
JV: 54:07
It became home for both of us, yeah, where we where I grew up, you know, is, you know, it-it was not home very, very quickly. You know, I did not want to go back to Long Island, you know, not that, not that anything bad happened there, but this was where, this is, this was where I grew up. Yeah, I know I became independent and-and we ended up staying in this area. You know, more from inertia than you know certain circumstance than any you know your major decision that said, “You know, we are going to live in in the Binghamton area.”
IG: 54:47
You are drawn to it.
JV: 54:49
Yeah. And now, I mean, we, I could not think of any place else I would want to leave. We, as we get older, and our son is moving someplace away, you know, we are always thinking, oh, well, you know, might we really relocate. But nothing is calling us nobody is- we are not sitting here saying, oh, gee, you know we need to go to North Carolina, or we need to go to Florida, or we need to move to Arizona or something like that. We just do not think that. And so, the university is just part of that circle. It is a big, important part of the circle in which we live.
IG: 55:18
That is very nice. And, you know, one last question I like to ask. What you know, what advice do you have for a student listening to this interview about, you know, planning their lives and-and about the college experience, and sort of, you know, looking to the future and what, what kind of, you know, what are some important qualities for them to own or develop in their future lives, or answer it any way that you like, that you feel, that you have found.
JV: 56:13
I do not know if I this Well, I am now in a position where I am working with students who want to become teachers and administer and school administrators, and it has a real career path to for them, I really feel bad for them that they do not have the opportunity to have the same kind of liberal arts opportunities that we had, but I worry about the issue of student debt. You know, I really, really am concerned. I mean, when people I we had this tiny little they have to take multiple tests and become teachers certified as teacher, and we had these vouchers so that they would not have to pay for these for these tests. And so, we asked students to say, “Why do you deserve this test?” And I just remember one young woman talked about her, you know, $50,000 worth of student debt, and when she when she graduates, she is going to get a job as a teacher, earning $40,000 and, you know, like, what does that mean? We had the luxury. I had a little bit of student debt when I when I graduated, but, but we had the luxury of having our, you know, free tuition, and all you had to do is pay for room and board. And we found an old bill one day, and it was like $400 you know, a semester like- so-so while I want them all to be able to have that, I do not know what I want to be. I am just going to take all the courses I possibly can and learn about the world and life and whatever can you really do you really want to take on all that debt as an art history major and start working in Applebee's, you know, like that is what I worry about right now. So, do I have advice? I do not know what I do.
JoV: 58:10
But then, you know, people go on the other track, and they say they are so directed, they are so mercenary. I am going to take these courses. It is going to become this pays the most, and this will pay for my entire education. And I sometimes feel they have lost the thrust of why they come here in the first place, if your if your curriculum only includes, you know, those three or four categories that you need, or you think you need for your job, because it is going to look great. Well, that is wonderful for your job, but you know, as a human being, you may fall short, but you know, if you want that human experience education, that is a big bill to pay, and obviously you have to balance the two, and I would not want to be in a position to make those decisions. It is just too catastrophic, like Jackie said, you come out of here with, you know, way too much debt that will burn you and taint your whole life thereafter. So, I am not sure what I would advise I would give them, but to think, you know deep and long about where do you want to go, and it is a hard decision to make, but people today have the luxury of time. They do not. They have a gap year. They have two gap years, you know, start at the local community college. The transfer in is, you know, be a little more mature. I mean, we, we did not have that opportunity. I did not have that opportunity, you know, I was 18. You are going to college, end of story, you know. Well, maybe I was not quite ready, I think, well, maybe I was not and I should have taken some time.
JV: 59:47
Yeah, fine, I guess and part of my profession says that we are all lifelong learners, so just realize that college is not the end that you should be. You know, you should continue to whatever your career choice is, understand that you are not done.
IG: 1:00:06
That is that is very good advice. I agree wholeheartedly. Any concluding remarks,
JV: 1:00:13
No, I would be interesting to read some of the other comments.
JoV: 1:00:16
I think you have gotten all you can out of these two old bodies. [laughter]
IG: 1:00:21
Thank you. It is very interesting and very enjoyable. Thank you.
JV: 1:00:26
You are welcome.
(End of Interview)
Interview with: Jackie and John Visser
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 8 November 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
IG: 00:01
Okay, we are on now.
JV: 00:02
Okay. My name is Jackie Visser.
IG: 00:05
Yes.
JV: 00:05
I am I am working here at the Department of Teaching, Learning and Educational Leadership as a lecturer, and we are sitting in my office on November 8, 2018.
JoV: 00:15
I am John Visser, retired, in the same office. [crosstalk] [laughter]
IG: 00:25
Okay. So, you know, maybe we can answer certain questions sort of in tandem, you know, if anybody wants to
JV: 00:33
Jump in.
IG: 00:34
Jump in or digress, you know, it is up to you. It is a conversation that we are having with the two of you. So where did you grow up, Jackie?
JV: 00:45
I grew up on Long Island. I was West Islip. Is the name of the town. Lived there, went to school there. All my kindergarten through 12th grade classes were there, and then I came to Harpur College.
JoV: 01:02
I went to Goshen, New York High School, lived there for a long time, and came to Binghamton in it was July, the summer session of July, 1965 there were about four or 500 students, and that is when Harpur had the trimester situation. And each-each semester lasted for four months. And the summer session went July, August, September and October.
JV: 01:34
Parts of October.
IG: 01:36
So, Jackie, tell me a little bit about your upbringing. Did your parents go to college? What were their expectations for you? Was education valued in your family?
JV: 01:50
Education was certainly valued, but neither of my parents went to college. I mean, I was, we were part of that baby boom generation moved out to a development on Long Island. My father had been in the army. He was a factory worker. My mom ended up driving a school bus. But there was absolutely no doubt in anybody's mind that I was supposed to go to college. And that was just part of what my family was like, it was a, you know, I had two brothers who neither, one of whom went to college. But for some reason I am the one. I was the oldest and, and I know my-my father was one who just insisted that, you know, you get as much schooling as you possibly can so.
IG: 02:36
And why do you think that that was? Why do you think that you were, you know, selected in your family to go on to higher education? Your brothers were not well.
JV: 02:50
I think it might have been. I was the oldest, and I was and I was doing really well in school. So, I think they saw that possibility, whereas my next youngest brother was not getting all the A's, and he, you know, I think they were probably more opportunities for boys who did not have a college education at the time, as opposed to opportunities for women who did not have a college, college education. So, I do not know. I never really discussed it with them, why they, why they wanted that for me, but that that, maybe that was it.
IG: 03:31
Why did you decide to go to Harpur and not another school?
JV: 03:37
Well, cost was obviously a factor. Back in the (19)60s, there was this opportunity called the Regent Scholarship, which was paid for your entire tuition. And so state schools was obviously the goal, you know, was where I was going to go. Stony Brook was fairly close, but that would have meant, and I felt like I wanted to get away from from-from home, right? And guidance counselors really pushed me here. There was, there were three or four of us from my high school who ended up coming here.
IG: 04:15
What did, what was the reputation of Harpur College back then?
JV: 04:20
It was, it was, it was-
IG: 04:21
What did they say about it? Your guidance counselors?
JV: 04:24
-highly selective, hard to get into. They encouraged me to apply for the summer semester, the summer trimester.
IG: 04:33
I see.
JV: 04:34
Because supposedly the trimester, the summer session was-was easier to get into than the than the fall semester trimester. So, I do not know. I do not know if I would have gotten into the fall semester or not. You know, I was a good student. I had pretty good SATs, I guess, but I do not know. I was too naive to understand all that at the time.
IG: 04:55
Did you have an idea of what you wanted to what studies you wanted to pursue?
JV: 04:59
Absolutely not never. [laughs] Oh, did not I? We had the luxury those days of being in a liberal arts college.
IG: 05:12
I remember.
JV: 05:14
Started out as a math major, that list about two semesters, tried economics for a while. That did not last too long. Ended up graduating as a sociology major. Ended up getting enough Bs in those courses to graduate.
IG: 05:34
So, we will return to that. We will return to your academics and other things. How about you, John?
JoV: 05:43
My family, I was the first in my family to go to college. My parents, my dad was born in the Netherlands, my mother was born in Poland, and they were absolutely adamant that I needed to go to school and to college and to get ahead. And I mean, they were very insisted, both my brother and I went to school. And it was there was no question my neither my dad, went through like eighth grade. My mother completed like through the third or fourth grade, and she had lived in Poland and in war she was she had been relocated to Germany as a forced laborer. And my dad had been relocated to Germany as a forced laborer from the Netherlands, and that was where they meant. So, it was very insistent that we go to school. And again, like Jackie said about the reason I went to Harpur, means it was all the guidance counselors touted it as a very selective place. Liberal Arts, the most difficult one of the universities in the state of New York, the public ones to get into. And I like Jackie, I wanted to get away from home, and this sounded like the place to be. And one, one of my reasons for coming during the summer trimester was to play soccer. I was a soccer player, and you-you could all by the time the fall semester trimester started, it would be the season be over. So, if you want to play soccer, you had to come during the middle of the summer. But there being so few students. We were very-very slim pickings. You know, people who had any experience at all mean 400 total students. That means 200 male students. How many soccer players are there? Not a whole lot.
IG: 07:31
Not a whole lot.
JV: 07:32
Camps- Camp Harpur is what we called it. You know, it was-
IG: 07:35
In the summertime?
JV: 07:36
Oh, yeah, it was very it was as empty a campus as it is now. Well, remember, it was a much smaller campus, you know.
JoV: 07:43
But there was a lot of construction going on.
IG: 07:45
It was here. It was here.
JV: 07:47
Yeah, already.
JoV: 07:48
It was already here. But and it was the beginning of a big boom. I mean, there was construction everywhere. And I think for the next 10 years we had perpetual construction going on-on all the sites.
IG: 08:01
Could I ask, just out of my own curiosity, why did your immigrant parents come to Goshen rather than New York City or some other, you know, immigrant magnet?
JoV: 08:15
Well, I mean, it turns out my dad had relatives [crosstalk] pre immigrated. They had already here. So, I see, you know, he needed a place where, you know, he could have some touch with, you know, somebody, and I think, couple of his brothers and one of his sisters already here. But one of his one of his sisters immigrated to Australia, and out of a family of seven, there was only one that remained in the Netherlands after everybody wanted, you know, did all the relocating.
IG: 08:47
Very interesting.
JV: 08:50
If you want to do research [crosstalk]
IG: 08:52
Yeah. Extremely interesting. That is extremely interesting. So, you know, so, what are some of the early impressions of the college? when you first arrived, you said that it was undergoing, you know, construction, virtual, you know, perpetual construction. There were very few students. What were, who were the students in your classes? You know, how were they all from New York City, some from upstate, you know, describe what the milieu was like.
JoV: 09:27
Well, preponderance of people were from New York City, but there were definitely people from the Buffalo area, the Syracuse area, a few local people, not, not a whole lot. But, you know, I think the admissions people at the university at Harpur College made it a point to bring in people from all over the state. I do not think we had very many people from out of state, but a few foreign students.
IG: 09:53
From where?
JoV: 09:55
One of the people I knew came from Iran, another one from Africa somewhere. And they were on, I do not know how they had gotten in, but, you know, we-we had made friends with them, and because I knew they want a soccer team, because they were the best, most experienced soccer players. But I mean, I think you are right. I mean, half the people would you say, dear come from- ame from New York City, Long Island area, at least.
JV: 10:22
That was, that was I lived on in the dormitory, and that is where, I mean, that is how I got basically introduced to New York, you know, visiting them on breaks and spending time with them, because I met them, you know, I was farther out on Long Island. We did not go into the city a lot, so, but most of our friends were, were definitely Queens and Manhattan in the Bronx and folks. And then there were some people from Long Island. As I said, there at least two-two came with me. Two classmates of mine from my high school came here. But we did know a lot of folks from-from the Buffalo area and upstate New York.
IG: 11:03
Were there any, you know, I imagine that the differences were slight, the cultural differences between upstate students and New York City students. Did you notice any of these? But you were, you came from such a multi-multi home. So, you must have felt very different.
JoV: 11:23
The student body was mostly middle class. Most of the students that I met were, if not first time, you know, generation college students, then you know, maybe it had brothers or sisters, but they were very much middle class. And, you know, we got along in that because we were- all had the same experiences. I did not find anybody who you know. My father was a doctor. My father has been- my father was a lawyer. My grandfather has been a lawyer. I did not experience that at all. This is all. We were all here together for first time. See what it was like.
JV: 11:55
Yeah, that is pretty much. I cultural differences, not really.
IG: 12:00
Not really.
JV: 12:00
I mean, I think we the biggest cultural learning that took place for me was learning about more Jewish traditions and cultures. I mean, I remember making matzah brei in the dorm and, you know, just understanding Jewish traditions and cultures and foods and things like that. But other than that, I do not remember.
JoV: 12:25
The other thing was the different dialects of New York. Yeah, people from Buffalo speak differently than people from Long Island, than the people from Brooklyn, than the people from Albany, New York, and the people who were, you know, in the Binghamton area. And that was my always sensitivity to, "Wow, I know where you are from. You are from Rochester, perhaps closer to Buffalo, but definitely in that neck of the woods." And-
IG: 12:48
So, you have, you have a very good ear.
JoV: 12:51
I tend to listen very carefully, and, you know, try to pinpoint where people's accents come from.
JV: 12:59
And he tried to beat the Long Island accent out of me. [laughter]
JoV: 13:07
30, 40 years. But Jackie's Long Island accent has now disappeared and is now she is a local.
IG: 13:15
So, what are some ticks of Binghamton locals’ speech ticks?
JV: 13:23
I know that you ask, it is kind of hard to think there is [crosstalk]
IG: 13:31
I mean, it is not, it is not necessary for the interview, but if you can think of it, I am just taking this because I do not have it watch. So
JV: 13:40
I cannot think of anything.
IG: 13:42
You cannot think of anything. I think that there is sort of, you know, a little to a voice, but I cannot, you know, I will identify it when I hear it, but I am [crosstalk]
JoV: 13:52
More nasally twang. There is a there are some colloquialisms that are definitely Binghamtonian and but, you know the one-
JV: 14:03
It is a double negative that use.
JoV: 14:05
So do not I.
JV: 14:06
Yeah, so do not I, you know, you know, "I really like brownies." "Well, so do not I, "you know,
JV: 14:13
Oh-oh, that is very interesting.
JoV: 14:15
It just struck us as, you know [crosstalk]
IG: 14:19
That is so interesting.
JV: 14:21
The bars would serve tomato pie, Hot Pie. You know, they would advertise instead of pizza, it was called Hot Pie. Let us go to Mike's and get a hot pie.
JoV: 14:30
Culinary city chicken, which is, I do not think it is, I do not know why it is called city, and I do not think it is chicken.
JV: 14:37
Pork in it, I think. [crosstalk] like meat on a stick. [laughs] I do not know how else to describe it, but just, but how much, how much of some of those things were just regional, and how much was growing up? Because you got to remember, you know, when you are we are finally 18, and now you are on your own, and you are navigating things on your own. So, is it really? Is it really that much different from where I grew up, or is it just the stage of life now, where I am learning about the world? So, I always, you know-
JV: 15:00
Yeah, it is what you-
JV: 15:07
Yeah.
IG: 15:08
You know what you are paying attention to.
JV: 15:11
Exactly.
IG: 15:12
So, what was, what were the academics like? Were you- are there any professors that stand out, any courses that stand out in your mind that kind of determined you to take a certain route in your career?
JoV: 15:32
I would like to answer that.
IG: 15:34
Yes.
JoV: 15:34
Is- the fact that we are in a liberal art we I took an art course from a professor Wilson who designed JFK memorial in Downtown Binghamton, and the fact that he was instructing freshmen was always amazing to me. Here is an established artist and taking liberal arts courses from various people and who had real academic standing. And I did not, you know it was the anthropology courses, the-the economic courses, but it just the, just the broadness. I mean, I guess you know, being-being, having become, becoming well rounded in various fields, that was the most interesting thing to me. Sometimes I had to redirect myself. "Oh, you got to take these courses." And it was just I was never that interested in, you know, I was always more interested in finding more courses, different courses to take. And that was really quite intriguing.
JV: 16:30
I have to admit, I was not a student. That was not
JoV: 16:32
You were a student.
JV: 16:34
I was. I managed to get through. I did get a degree, but classes and courses, that was not what interested me on campus. I would that was not who I was. [laughs] so-
IG: 16:46
Who were you on campus?
JV: 16:48
I was a member of lots of campus activities, you know, I- there was a poster, the-the-the I was a member of the student council board, the student center board. It says, presented by the student center board, yeah, and so we, they would bring, and I was on, it was on dorm governance, and just various organizations on campus that that was something that really-
IG: 17:17
So, what were so, what-what did these organizations, what did the Mitchell trio?
JV: 17:24
It was the folk trio--there was a concert, yeah. So, they had the-
IG: 17:27
John Denver, the John Denver.
JV: 17:29
Yes.
IG: 17:29
Oh, wow.
JoV: 17:30
Yeah.
JoV: 17:30
Oh, you Chad Mitchell trio. Before-before became John Denver, he was part of a trio.
IG: 17:35
Oh, I have no I had no idea.
JV: 17:39
And after the concert, you know, he and his guitar went over to somebody's house in Johnson City, and he serenaded us all again, you know,
IG: 17:46
How wonderful.
JV: 17:48
We talked about. We brought Simon and Garfunkel to campus and paid them, like, less than $2,000 for the concert down in the gym, the first gym.
JoV: 18:00
Obviously, before they got really really-really expensive.
JV: 18:03
That is, that is wonderful. So-so that was your activity. It was finding those groups-
JV: 18:09
Finding those groups and being involved with the people, you know, the other students who were part of that, you know, that was what really interested me, as opposed to, I got through my classes. But I that was where-
IG: 18:22
So, what-what, you know, were students talking about? What did they care about during this time?
JoV: 18:29
Let me, let me answer [crosstalk] a little bit. This was in the days 1965 all young men who were not in college were going to be drafted. And I can tell you, I mean, that was the number one topic, the war in Vietnam was going full tilt, and if you got kicked out of school, did not come to school, you were going to get drafted and you were going to go to Vietnam. And I can tell you that all the male students, that was their overriding concern. They may have had. They might have had career goals. They might have been pursuing a degree in something they really want. But this stood above all. I mean, this was always on your mind. So-
IG: 19:07
Do you feel that it was a, an anxiety that everyone shared, all men shared?
JV: 19:13
Gap year.
JoV: 19:13
Gap year out of it. I mean, that was out of the question. You know, you want a gap year, you got to be drafted. So, it was definitely on everyone's mind, overriding every single day. You know, we get through and-and the war news. I mean, it just got worsened from 1965 to (19)66 to (19)67 to (19)68 I mean, the war just grew more and more intense. And, you know, the body count was really quite horrific. I graduated from Goshen High with there were 125 students. And there were, there were two people, I know who died. One of them lived on my street. And these were guys, young men, who did not go to college. They, you know, graduate high school, and within six months, they were in Vietnam, and within a year, they were dead. So, I, I felt that it was really, really tough going.
JoV: 19:13
Oh, definitely. I mean, a lot of students, I among them, what do they call that? When you, when you, when you when you graduate from high school and you have a you take a year off,
IG: 20:19
So, it, you know, it colored the mood. It colored the sort of the like the-
JV: 20:23
Well, and then, and then, you know, we were, I am thinking the world. We were not as actively involved in protests, but that is what was starting to happen on campus. You know, that, that you were, you became very much aware of that there were, there were people around the country who were actively against the war, that were actively protesting against the war. I remember we- I think we finally did march from the campus to downtown-
JoV: 20:47
1968.
JV: 20:47
-1968 involved in a protest. But we were not, we did not occupy the administration building, because that is in my mind, that is not who I was protesting against. But I It was not. It was in 1970 was Kent State, was not it? So it was, we were still in the area, and you know that they, they closed the camp- they just sent in May of or rather, it was in April. So, there was still several more weeks now. Think about all that happens on a campus in April and May. In April, every single, just about every single university in this country since, said, "Go home. Just go home now."
JoV: 21:33
And I remember-
JV: 21:34
Go home.
JoV: 21:35
And students met with the profs, and the prof said, “What kind of grade you want? Because, you know, we are shutting down. We are not doing any more final exams. We are not having any more classes. We are concluding this semester after Kent State, because we do not want the whole thing to blow up.” I mean, I mean, that was the kind of tension that Amnesty- 1965 the war was in a very low-level state. But it just grew and grew and grew and, you know, I- it was just an incredible build up and-and we knew some people who, I knew some people who either had had left school or flunked out, and then, you know, we had heard, oh, they were, you know, they were in the army, or a few of them went to Canada, you know there, and I have never seen some of those people again.
IG: 22:26
So, but the campus did have some protests?
JoV: 22:31
Oh yeah.
IG: 22:32
But-but did you go on marches on Washington, or?
JV: 22:39
No, it was just here. Yeah-yeah. I am sure there were students who there were busses and things to Washington. We just did not do that.
JoV: 22:46
I mean, I would not call Bingham- Harpur College an activist.
JV: 22:49
Yeah, we were not Columbia.
JoV: 22:51
I mean, there were, there were people who were active, but not, not like Berkeley or Columbia.
IG: 22:57
Yeah, um, so, you know, so when did you meet? When did you when did you meet? When were you together?
JV: 23:13
John's roommate, he lived off campus, and my roommate were dating, and several of us would John-John had a car that was, and we would go out. And remember, the drinking age was 18 at the time, and so we would go out and have beers and hot pies and speedies and whatever.
IG: 23:32
And this is when, what-
JV: 23:33
-in the neighborhood bars, 19-
JoV: 23:34
1967, 1968.
JV: 23:35
(19)68 so we were just part of a group of people who palled around and then eventually started dating.
IG: 23:44
Right. So, you knew each other since then?
JV: 23:48
Yeah, but mainly his-his roommate and my roommate were dating, and so I got to know him that way.
IG: 23:56
So, you know, I am thinking about the war, and you said that Harpur was not an activist school, per se, and yet, there was a lot of activity on campus that was sort of, you know, politicized. People were politicized here. So, were you part of any kind of, I do not know, paper or radio?
JV: 24:19
No, I just was not, I was not that. I was more. I mean, even now, you know, we are good citizens and vote and stuff, but I have not been too much on Washington with my pink hat or anything, you know. I mean, I am support liberal ideas and contribute money and things like that, but not I am just done an activist kind of person.
IG: 24:42
What were, what was the significance of, you know, the folk musicians, like the Mitchell Trio?
JV: 24:49
They were fun. I mean, I remember what- who was that it became the kosher kitchen. But remember, there was a little coffee house, one of that little way the Fleishman Center is now, and the student, you. Union. And, you know, there people would bring guitars and play folk music, and then the Bill Barker or Bob Barker, what is his name?
IG: 25:08
You know, was not it a change in sort of, you know, youth culture, because from-from all of the you know, folk musicians, they were, you know, Peter, Paul and Mary, for example, yeah, when I know Dylan, they all had, you know, a message of social change-
JV: 25:25
Right.
IG: 25:25
-political change-
JV: 25:26
Right-right, yeah, definitely.
IG: 25:27
Were you kind of alive to that, to that aspect of them?
JV: 25:32
Yeah.
JoV: 25:34
I mean, Bob Dylan, you know, was played in dorms from 1965 I mean, just repeatedly, everyone, almost everyone, was involved with Dylan. I mean, it was really the first off campus event I went to in New York, was to see a Dylan concert. I mean, I had seen a bunch on, you know, other concerts on campus, but where I really went out of my way to see Bob Dylan. And-
IG: 26:01
Where did you see him? Do you remember?
JoV: 26:05
I saw him--I think it was Carnegie Hall.
IG: 26:07
Oh.
JoV: 26:07
And it was one of his first electric concerts, and he sort of, he did some acoustic guitar the first half, and then he brought on his electric organ and-and he got booed [crosstalk] yes. And, you know, because they were, there were some purists in the audience. And then, you know, I think he eventually won them over, or at least the majority of the audience was won over. But Dylan, to me, is, I mean, I have, you know, as a friend of mine says, "John, have you, you know, bought all his vinyls?" I said, "I try," so very, you know, I think that whole theme of anti-war from him. I mean, I know there were others, other musicians, but I not, not, not as much as him.
JV: 26:36
Yeah, no. And I mean, the whole counterculture kind of attitude, you know, do not trust anyone under over 30. And you know, knowing that, that you have some, you ae going to have some responsibility for moving you know that, that I definitely felt that I was, was part of me, but-but I just was not, you know, I was not a, an activist kind of person. [crosstalk]
IG: 27:26
Your-your future life to be sort of along the same path as your family, as your mother and father. Did you think that you would get married and then, you know, have children and retire, or did you, did you envision a different future for yourself?
JoV: 27:49
I could just speak for myself that I did not my-my concern was- what was going to happen after the four years when my deferment is up. I really was incapable of thinking much beyond that. Is there life after, after schools? Do not know. You know, am I going to live in the United States or not? Do not know. Am I going to be alive? I do not know it was, it was that overwhelming. I, if I may, I will tell you one story, when, when did the draft started to not to end, but they had a lottery. I do not know if you remember that. And every, every young man in the country was now, because there was so such a differential in various areas. I mean, some people were drafted, some people were not. So, they have a lottery, so everybody was going to get a number. And then every so we were listening to the Harpur radio station. Jackie and I were driving in the car, and they were reading the numbers
JV: 28:43
Based on your birthday.
JoV: 28:44
So, if they read this is number one, April 27 that means that you were going to be the first one called. And if you get a high number, you were probably not going to be called. So, we were trying to listen for my birthday. It was 365,366 you know; dates they have to go through. So, we finally get the campus and we, you know, what number did you get? What I mean, that was the, you know, that was it. And after that, I mean, I got a relatively high number, and I that was the first time. I do not know when that happened. It was early 1970 late 1969 I finally could think of, oh, yeah, now, you know-
JV: 29:15
But you had already got, you had gone for a physical just before that.
JoV: 29:18
Oh yeah. I mean, I mean-
JV: 29:18
John, John extended, you know I mean the draft, a full-time student was four classes. But what I mean, most students were taking 16 credits, four classes, but you could still be considered full time if you were taking three for the and if you were full time, you were going to get this exemption. So, John, sort of like, spread things out. You took a long time. I graduated in December of (19)69 but you did not graduate. Well, you that Kent State erupted, you know.,
JoV: 29:51
But three courses, I mean, was no reason for me to take four courses. We might. Am I going to finish earlier? And so finally, you know, I had, I. And run out the string. And then the Selective Service in Goshen and said, you know, your time is up. You have used your four years since you matriculated at Harpur. And so, they sent me for a physical in Syracuse. And then this lottery, I said, “But the lottery, you are still going for a physical, okay?”
JV: 30:18
But it was like, within days the lottery came about, and he did never get drafted.
IG: 30:23
People do not appreciate what a sense of tension, of anxiety-
JV: 30:30
Control. It was a controlled {crosstalk]
IG: 30:32
Control over a huge, you know, swath of young people, psychologically. What that meant for them later on, you know, or during that time.
JoV: 30:45
I took a bus from the Binghamton Federal Building to Syracuse and had a physical, and then got into some disagreement with some of the military people, not just, you know, and they wanted me to stay overnight, to do something else. And I said "No," and they said, "You are not getting back on the bus." I said, "That is all right." So, I called Jackie, and she had to drive up to Syracuse and pick me up. And I was, I was outraged. I mean, I was, I was fuming. I was just-
JV: 31:13
I am afraid now that the police are going to come and guard him away because arrest him. Are we going to Canada now?
JoV: 31:21
That was the, you know, I do, but luckily, you know, the everything was held in abeyance until this lottery. And then, I mean, that was the beginning of a new, new page. Okay, now, what am I going to do?
IG: 31:35
So, what did you do?
JoV: 31:35
Well, Jackie had started teaching in in Johnson City. So, I said, "Well, I might as well try that too." And, you know, I really had no plans. I had no idea, you know, we live here and, well, at least for the time being. You know, this is easy. I cannot I cannot fathom moving and starting, oh, you know, just, let us settle down and for at least a couple of years. And a couple of years turned into next 40 years.
JV: 32:01
Your career. Yeah, yeah. I had sworn all along I was never going to teach, but I went to the New York State Employment Agency looking for a job after I graduated, and they sent me to a Catholic school who needed a fourth-grade teacher, and they hired me. And that is, you know, I am now teaching in the department of teaching, learning, educational leadership. So, you know, who knew I-I had no idea.
IG: 32:27
Fell into that career both you.
JV: 32:29
never in the, you know, in 1965 Did I imagine I myself being a teacher.
IG: 32:35
So, so tell me a little bit about your career trajectories, you know. So, you-you kind of fell into the teaching profession, and what happened, you know? Give us an overview.
JV: 32:48
I taught in the Catholic schools. I just thought I figured out I like teaching and I wanted to continue. So, I worked to get my teaching credentials from New York State and found a job. I was hired by the Union Endicott school district as a reading teacher because I had taken a number of reading courses as I was working toward my credential, and taught reading there for 12 years. And then I became I-I had, in New York State, you need a master's degree. So, I had managed to get a master's degree in reading at the University of Scranton, and talked to my principal at the time, and I said, "Okay, so now what?" And he said, he says "We should think about administration." So, I continued taking courses, became the principal of the of an elementary school, and then director of elementary education and then Assistant Superintendent when I retired, and I am a lecturer here. I am not on a tenure track that I was an adjunct and of the five faculty members one year, two of them left to take other positions, and they really were kind of desperate. They said, well, here, you know, become a full-time person, and that was 13 years ago. So, I have been doing that. I have been here ever since. So, what do you do here? I teach courses in the literacy program. We prepare young men and women to be teachers, to get their credential, and then when another faculty member left who was in charge of the Educational Administration program. They asked me to be that program coordinator. So now I am working in the program. I am coordinating the program that prepares men and women to be principals and supervisors and that sort of thing in schools. They picked me because I-I had one of those jobs, so they figured, I must know what I am doing.
IG: 34:43
That is very interesting. Do you, do you have, do you offer a doctoral program in the Education Department?
JV: 34:49
Yeah, we do, but in curriculum and instruction, it was not a leadership program, but it was just, it was, it was a, it was an EDD.
IG: 34:58
So, you do not offer an EDD? In leadership? No, we do not know.
JV: 35:02
Although our- the courses that we offer are 600 are 600 level courses in can be the ED leadership courses can be used as electives and the doctor courses, but it is not any, any DD in leadership.
IG: 35:18
I see, I see. I am just curious.
JV: 35:21
Okay.
IG: 35:24
So, you know this is, what about your family life? Did you have-
JV: 35:32
One son.
IG: 35:32
Yeah, you have one son.
JV: 35:34
Yep, Andy, yep. He is 38 now. [laughs]
IG: 35:42
And is he- is he in the vicinity?
JV: 35:45
He is, he is living in Athens Georgia currently, because he is married to a woman who is in a doctoral program there. So, she has, she will be, they will be leaving in May for her internship, and we do not know where they are going to be.
JV: 36:04
[laughs] I am not even sure he is coming home for Thanksgiving.
IG: 36:04
That is, that is the way of grown children, and you do not know where they are going inaudible]
IG: 36:04
You might have to go there.
JV: 36:10
No, we were not going there, but he might. He said, "Yeah-yeah, we are coming, but we have-"
IG: 36:20
So, I am curious also, what you know the women's movement happened in the early (19)70s. It was you were off campus by then. But did you feel signs that you know, attitudes toward women and expectations of women were shifting or not?
JV: 36:51
Of course, they were, yeah. They were definitely shifting. I mean, even my sights were, you know, were higher, you know, that, that I could do it, but, but were there still obstacles, you know? Yeah, not everything was apparent that we could do. I still remember one of the administrators in the school district calling us all girls, you know. And I finally had enough courage to request politely that please stop calling us girls. “You know, we are not girls.” He meant it; you know. I mean, he was very polite, caring man. He just needed to be informed that we were not finding it grating, right to be to refer to as girls. But, yeah, I mean, I we women- we very concerned about women getting to becoming, getting into elected office and supporting women who were in elected office. Look, looking up to those people. I mean, I still remember Geraldine Ferraro being nominated as about for a vice president, you know, all those things were eye opening and but yet,
IG: 38:08
Did you, did you have a supportive husband?
JV: 38:12
Absolutely.
IG: 38:12
Yes, supportive of your wife's career.
JoV: 38:16
I when Jackie got her master's in Scranton. Scranton is an hour's drive, I mean, and going through the winter, it was, it was difficult. And I, you know, she went with somebody. And finally, she says, “You know, there is got to be better way, quicker way” and she says, “You know, Scranton is a Catholic University. If I go there in the summer, I can live with the nuns and spend four days a week there. Get all my work done. Come on weekend.” I said, “God bless you. Go.” And it turned out to be a real boon for both of us. I mean, it saved her a lot of driving time, and she had very little work, because she says nuns are not that [crosstalk]
JV: 38:53
There was nothing else to do. [crosstalk] late, later, late evening, because people were teaching, or working or something. So, I would have, like all day to do my coursework, and then I would come home after my last class on Thursday and not have to be back until my class on Monday. And I did not, except for the toward the end, when the papers were due, when you had to type them on your old electric type writer, remember.
IG: 39:19
Yes.
JoV: 39:20
You had an electric one?
IG: 39:22
Yeah, I remember [crosstalk]
JV: 39:24
With carbon paper and erasable paper. Remember when they finally invented erasable paper. I do not know if you remember that.
IG: 39:32
I do not remember the erasable-
JV: 39:34
White out.
IG: 39:35
White out. Certainly, white out. erasable paper?
JV: 39:38
They had it. They had a when they when they invented erasable bond, you know, then you could actually get rid of the type without making crosstalk]
IG: 39:47
That is right. Now, I do remember I see it. It was, it was a very long time ago.
JV: 39:51
Yeah, if you had an expensive IBM, then it had that white out, or actually-
IG: 39:55
Right-right-right. So-so you were a supportive husband. Jackie was telling me a little bit about giving her giving me an outline of her career trajectory. Could you tell us what your career was like?
JV: 40:17
John was a very supportive husband. He basically raised our son. He was, yeah, he was the- he was done lots and lots of different kinds of things, but I was the career person. I was the one who did that. And he was, he was the, he was the one I we have a colleague who was lamenting the fact that she had a class and could not go to her son's open house. And I said I never saw my son off to school on the first day, you know, that big event where you take pictures and stuff never happened. Because I was always meeting 400 other kids somewhere. Yeah. So, when you talk about changing roles of women, and we were, we were, we were one of the first families where, you know, I was the main career person, and John was the person who was raising, put, keeping the family together and raising the family, you know, taking all care of all the right stuff that needed to be care of.
IG: 41:16
So, you know, now it is nor normative.
JV: 41:19
Yeah.
IG: 41:19
But then, did you experience any criticism? Or, you know, nothing from-
JV: 41:26
Not really.
IG: 41:27
No nothing. Did you what did you feel, John?
JoV: 41:30
I mean, I would meet when-when my son was smaller, I, you know, would take him grocery shopping. And I would always meet other little children who were there with their mothers, and lot of them were teachers whom I knew, and they kind of look at my son was like, well, you know, Dad, it is okay, yeah. So it was, it was different. I mean, not like, you know, today, obviously, but there was some pressure. But as I said, I always worried about more about my son than about myself and he, you know, kids just seem to, you know, no problem. So.
IG: 42:07
So how did you keep yourself, you know, you took care of your family, of your son, your wife, you know what-how did you did you pursue your intellectual interests that you developed in college. How did you do that?
JV: 42:27
John is the most voracious reader you have ever met in your whole entire life. We subscribe to at least three newspapers.
JoV: 42:36
That would be real, physical newspapers, the kind you throw into the fireplace and they-they ignite.
JV: 42:39
Put in the bottom of the bird case.
IG: 42:42
So, what do you read? What-what papers do you read?
JoV: 42:46
We said, The Wall Street Journal comes every day, the times comes on Sunday, and the local paper comes on Sunday. So, you know, our newspaper carrier has she-she deserves a lot of rewards, because on Sundays, you know, the local paper, at the times, there is a, you know, sometimes the five or six pounds with papers come, so.
IG: 43:07
It is nice. It is nice to read the-the physical paper. I mean, I read everything online these days.
JoV: 43:15
I you know, I mean, I know Jackie reads a lot of it online. I still have some difficulty. I mean, I when you get a paper subscription, you can read it online. And a lot of times I will start, I just cannot.
IG: 43:26
Yeah, it is more pleasurable.
JoV: 43:28
Yeah. And so, I mean, the New York Times is a habit from college doing crossword together. And, I mean, it is 40 years of, you know, got to have that-
JV: 43:42
50,50.
JoV: 43:42
I am sorry, 50 years. Got to have that New York Times fix.
IG: 43:45
Yeah. Do you feel that you know the-the answer is obvious to me, but do you feel that you know Harpur College played a key role in kind of opening you up intellectually-
JoV: 44:01
For me yes, definitely. I mean, I, you know, you take the high school courses. You do well, but it is like the broadening, the things that you find out and, you know, there is another whole world out there. I remember Jackie and I took a theater course, which was really, you know, incredible, you know, it is like, wow, this is what it is all about. I took astronomy and geology. I mean, a lot of the Harpur students were biology students and chemistry students. And I said, “Well, I really want to take these other ones” and just, you know, it is like, wow, there is, there are a lot of different things. So today I hear my son, who went to RPI, I mean, almost all his courses were in computer science. And I am thinking a lot of people are linear. You know, be a liberal arts student. There is, there is really nothing wrong with it that makes a human being.
IG: 44:52
I think I-I agree. I agree. And I also think that the theater department here is really top Notch. Did you stay in touch with the campus? Did you continue going, you know, did you go to concerts, to theater productions here together?
JV: 45:11
We kick ourselves that we do not go to more, yeah, but we definitely stay, you know, involved. We have never left. It has, it has been part of our lives. We live, you know, five miles and way in Endicott, and it has just always been, you know, we have been here forever.
JoV: 45:28
We have been part of the Alumni Association since we graduated down now, if Jackie spoke, she was, she spent maybe a year and a half as the director of-
JV: 45:36
Yeah, actually worked. I was, I was president of the Alumni Association.
IG: 45:40
Oh, wow.
JV: 45:41
And then while I was president, the gentleman who was employed by us as the director, got into some kind of-he left. And so, I took over. I took a leave of absence from my teaching and took over as the-the interim director, while they were doing a search.
IG: 46:05
When was that?
JV: 46:06
Andy was just born, so it was (19)80-
JoV: 46:09
(19)82 or (19)83.
JV: 46:10
No, was not he still nursing, I think? Yep, 80- was it (19)81, (19)82?
IG: 46:15
Yeah, but interesting.
JoV: 46:17
For a year?
JV: 46:19
Nine months. It was from January to September. I went back to teaching in September. So, um.
JoV: 46:26
So, our connection to the university has been-
IG: 46:29
It is very deep. Did you- do you think that your-your grounding in liberal arts informed sort of you know your son's well, your son chose computer science. I do not know what he does, but-but do you think that that it was part of his upbringing that you encouraged him to read-
JV: 46:51
He had a dual degree in in social sciences, you know, he-
JoV: 46:55
Psychology.
JV: 46:56
-psychology, he, you know he. I think he likes to think of himself as a renaissance man. Yeah, you know he-
JoV: 47:02
But unfortunately, he has never had a job outside [crosstalk]
JV: 47:06
Yeah, he earns his money one way. But yeah, he is an avid reader. He, which pleases me no end as a reading teacher. I remember. I mean, one of the things that just, I just loved, was he has a very-very close friend. And even in as they left high school and during college, his they would give birthday gifts or Christmas gifts to one another. And they were books, you know, they were not CDs and games. They were books. They would share books. And I am thinking, oh my, we did something, right? You know, like-
JoV: 47:40
The connection to Harpur. I just should add my son's middle name is Harpur.
IG: 47:45
Oh, my goodness.
JoV: 47:46
So, we-we had a tough time agreeing on a first name, and finally we decided, both of us, and it was no objection at all. You know, Andrew Harpur Visser.
IG: 47:46
Oh, wow.
IG: 47:53
That is, that is, that is a huge endorsement of your experience. You know, I do not know there is a better word for it. You know, your love-
JoV: 47:53
So.
JoV: 48:11
Exactly.
IG: 48:13
-for this, for this experience. I am just wondering. You know, this is kind of off of tangent a little bit. But what is illiteracy- you know, what is the illiteracy rate here in Broome County? And do you teach children, young people or adults or everyone?
JV: 48:38
I do not teach the children. I teach the teachers.
IG: 48:41
You teach the teachers, right.
JV: 48:43
What is the illiteracy rate? It is, it is, well, if you think, if you think about the big test that has to be taken in New York State, and you have to pass it, probably, probably about 30 percent of the students are not passing the test.
IG: 48:59
Wow.
JV: 49:00
Yeah, depending on which grade level or, you know, which test you are in, what you are looking for, but that is the test, you know, there is you could not do well on a test, but still, but still be able to function real well. So right now, what is your definition of illiteracy? You know, it is, it is kind of hard to tell I wish one of the things that we all worry about as teachers is not necessarily students’ inability to read. It is students’ reluctance to read. You know, the motivation social being on social media all the time and not finding joy and rewards of books. You know, as a librarian, you probably worry about as well.
IG: 49:46
Yeah, and we have programs, we have literacy both for, I think it is, it is, it is not literacy for reading, but it is literacy in research. In understanding sources in, you know, separating fake news from real news. In technology literacy, so different kinds of literacy that librarians increasingly teach, you know, and that we have, but I will tell you about those programs later. So, you know, I am thinking, you know, we are kind of wrapping up, and I would like to ask you, what are some of the important lessons that you learned from this time in your life at Harpur College?
JoV: 50:40
Really, very difficult to-
JV: 50:44
We grew up. I do not know if it is a lesson, but we just, you know, I remember my 20th birthday thinking, “Oh, my God, I am an adult now. I am 20. It is, it is different. You know, what am I going to do? Where am I going? What is going on with my life?” But by the time we muddled through, you know, graduation and those first years, okay, I can do this. I can, I can. I am capable. I can. I think, I think one of the things I told you I was not a great student, but I was involved in lots of organizations that taught me an awful lot, you know, that-
IG: 51:26
Gave you confidence.
IG: 51:27
It is a special ability, getting people to do what needs to be done, and having them enjoy what they are doing.
JV: 51:27
Right.
JV: 51:27
Gave me confidence, you know, some leadership ability, organizational things, the things you know, my maybe, maybe not my teaching career, but my administrative career. And I was a school administrator for more years than I was a teacher actually. I traced back to-to being on the student center board and figuring out that, you know, we need a contract for the, you know, for the Mitchell Trio guys. And not only do you just sign the contract, but then somebody has to pick them up at the airport, and what are you going to do, you know, all that kind of marshaling people. I was not the leader of it, but understanding, getting to see people do those things, you know, then I could become president of the Alumni Association.
JoV: 51:50
I mean, for me, I think it was in a chaotic time that the university held was stability. It kept things. Was something for me to lean on whenever things got really out of kilter, and this was, this is where I knew I could go back to and-and, you know, retain some sanity or in a crazy world. And, you know, it was, it was not necessarily teaching me something. I mean, we have talked about this previously, but, you know, the moment that, like, we could not think beyond I could not think beyond it. And so, you know, that forced me to concentrate on the university as a place where, you know, it was stable. It was a place where I could always rely on and, you know, whatever, whatever came, whatever was to happen in the future.
IG: 53:12
It was, it was your escape. It was your sort of, you know, zone. No?
JoV: 53:20
It was away from the world [crosstalk]
IG: 53:25
The pressures of the David.
JoV: 53:29
I mean, we were, when we were here, we were fully involved from dawn till dusk. We were there was classes, athletics, playing cards, meeting with friends. I mean, this university was our life really was and, and I remember the first after the first summer I when I decided to work in the Binghamton area during a break, my parents said, "Well, you are sure you are going to be able to handle it up there, you know, because you, you know you are not going to be home,” Yeah. This is, this is, you know, I felt feel bad.
IG: 54:05
It became home.
JoV: 54:06
Yeah, exactly.
JV: 54:07
It became home for both of us, yeah, where we where I grew up, you know, is, you know, it-it was not home very, very quickly. You know, I did not want to go back to Long Island, you know, not that, not that anything bad happened there, but this was where, this is, this was where I grew up. Yeah, I know I became independent and-and we ended up staying in this area. You know, more from inertia than you know certain circumstance than any you know your major decision that said, “You know, we are going to live in in the Binghamton area.”
IG: 54:47
You are drawn to it.
JV: 54:49
Yeah. And now, I mean, we, I could not think of any place else I would want to leave. We, as we get older, and our son is moving someplace away, you know, we are always thinking, oh, well, you know, might we really relocate. But nothing is calling us nobody is- we are not sitting here saying, oh, gee, you know we need to go to North Carolina, or we need to go to Florida, or we need to move to Arizona or something like that. We just do not think that. And so, the university is just part of that circle. It is a big, important part of the circle in which we live.
IG: 55:18
That is very nice. And, you know, one last question I like to ask. What you know, what advice do you have for a student listening to this interview about, you know, planning their lives and-and about the college experience, and sort of, you know, looking to the future and what, what kind of, you know, what are some important qualities for them to own or develop in their future lives, or answer it any way that you like, that you feel, that you have found.
JV: 56:13
I do not know if I this Well, I am now in a position where I am working with students who want to become teachers and administer and school administrators, and it has a real career path to for them, I really feel bad for them that they do not have the opportunity to have the same kind of liberal arts opportunities that we had, but I worry about the issue of student debt. You know, I really, really am concerned. I mean, when people I we had this tiny little they have to take multiple tests and become teachers certified as teacher, and we had these vouchers so that they would not have to pay for these for these tests. And so, we asked students to say, “Why do you deserve this test?” And I just remember one young woman talked about her, you know, $50,000 worth of student debt, and when she when she graduates, she is going to get a job as a teacher, earning $40,000 and, you know, like, what does that mean? We had the luxury. I had a little bit of student debt when I when I graduated, but, but we had the luxury of having our, you know, free tuition, and all you had to do is pay for room and board. And we found an old bill one day, and it was like $400 you know, a semester like- so-so while I want them all to be able to have that, I do not know what I want to be. I am just going to take all the courses I possibly can and learn about the world and life and whatever can you really do you really want to take on all that debt as an art history major and start working in Applebee's, you know, like that is what I worry about right now. So, do I have advice? I do not know what I do.
JoV: 58:10
But then, you know, people go on the other track, and they say they are so directed, they are so mercenary. I am going to take these courses. It is going to become this pays the most, and this will pay for my entire education. And I sometimes feel they have lost the thrust of why they come here in the first place, if your if your curriculum only includes, you know, those three or four categories that you need, or you think you need for your job, because it is going to look great. Well, that is wonderful for your job, but you know, as a human being, you may fall short, but you know, if you want that human experience education, that is a big bill to pay, and obviously you have to balance the two, and I would not want to be in a position to make those decisions. It is just too catastrophic, like Jackie said, you come out of here with, you know, way too much debt that will burn you and taint your whole life thereafter. So, I am not sure what I would advise I would give them, but to think, you know deep and long about where do you want to go, and it is a hard decision to make, but people today have the luxury of time. They do not. They have a gap year. They have two gap years, you know, start at the local community college. The transfer in is, you know, be a little more mature. I mean, we, we did not have that opportunity. I did not have that opportunity, you know, I was 18. You are going to college, end of story, you know. Well, maybe I was not quite ready, I think, well, maybe I was not and I should have taken some time.
JV: 59:47
Yeah, fine, I guess and part of my profession says that we are all lifelong learners, so just realize that college is not the end that you should be. You know, you should continue to whatever your career choice is, understand that you are not done.
IG: 1:00:06
That is that is very good advice. I agree wholeheartedly. Any concluding remarks,
JV: 1:00:13
No, I would be interesting to read some of the other comments.
JoV: 1:00:16
I think you have gotten all you can out of these two old bodies. [laughter]
IG: 1:00:21
Thank you. It is very interesting and very enjoyable. Thank you.
JV: 1:00:26
You are welcome.
(End of Interview)
Date of Interview
2018-11-09
Interviewer
Irene Gashurov
Year of Graduation
Jackie 1969
John 1973
John 1973
Interviewee
Jackie and John Visser
Biographical Text
Jackie is a lecturer in Education at Binghamton University; John was more of a stay-at-home father.
Interview Format
Audio
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Files
Citation
“Interview with Jackie and John Visser,” Digital Collections, accessed April 1, 2026, https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1174.
