Interview with Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld

Schoenfeld, Eugene, 1935- ; McKiernan, Stephen

Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld is a psychiatrist, author, lecturer and was a popular underground newspaper columnist. His column "Dr. Hip" was published in many newspapers including the Chicago Sun-Times, Tampa Times, San Francisco Chronicle, and the San Francisco Examiner. Schoenfeld's books include Dear Dr. HipPocrates, Natural Food and Unnatural Acts, Jealousy: Taming the Green-Eyed Monster, and Dr. Hip's Down-To-Earth Health Guide.

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In copyright

2018-03-29

McKiernan Interviews

149:55

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Eugene Schoenfeld
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 14 October 2010
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(Start of Interview)

SM (00:00:04):
Good morning. Good evening. And, just the first question I want to ask is could you give me a little bit about your background, your early years. You are a doctor, a little bit about your parents, your growing-up years, and why did you want to become a doctor?

ES (00:00:25):
All right. My mother was an immigrant. She came from Russia when she was 12 years old. Her parents had been separated by the First World War, and then by the Russian Revolution between 1913 and 1922. So, my mother, her younger sister, and their mother, my grandmother, were separated for nine years from my grandfather, again, because of first the First World War and then the Russian Revolution. My father's family also came from Russia. Actually, he came from Lithuania, and my father's eldest brother was born there, and then the family came to the United States. My father was born here. My father had been a union organizer, at time I was born, for the Transport Workers' Union, New York City, and that was a leftist union. My father was involved in leftist politics. In fact, he was a member of the Communist Party, and gave me my middle name, which is Lenin, L-E-N-I-N.

SM (00:02:02):
Oh.

ES (00:02:02):
A name that I stopped using after the Rosenbergs were executed-

SM (00:02:07):
Yeah.

ES (00:02:09):
...especially when applying to medical school, thinking-

SM (00:02:14):
Yeah.

ES (00:02:16):
…that would not have been good.

SM (00:02:17):
No.

ES (00:02:18):
I was delivered by my uncle, who married my mother's younger sister. I think that influenced me to be a doctor. It was curious, also, because he was related to the infamous Arnold Rothstein, who went to the 1919 World Series.

SM (00:02:46):
Oh.

ES (00:02:49):
When I first learned about that when I was a child, I asked my parents, they would not talk about it. It was a scandal. Especially at that time.

SM (00:02:59):
That was the Black Sox scandal?

ES (00:03:01):
Yes.

SM (00:03:01):
Yes.

ES (00:03:03):
Yeah, so he was a great uncle by marriage to me.

SM (00:03:10):
What was it like going to college or medical school in the (19)50s, particularly undergraduate school before you went on to med school?

ES (00:03:20):
I graduated college from the University of California at Berkeley. I went to high school in Miami Beach. My parents moved to Miami Beach when I was 12, and I went to high school there and then a year of college. Then, I transferred to Berkeley. I went back to Miami for medical school, beginning in 1957. Well, it was very different from Berkeley, at that time. Berkeley has always been a liberal area. It always has had at least some population of what was known then as Bohemians. Then, it was smaller. Now, of course, it was larger. It was quite a shock going back to school because medical school was much more regimented than-

SM (00:04:18):
Right.

ES (00:04:19):
...the undergraduate years at Berkeley. Also, at the time I went to medical school, we still had segregation in the South. And in fact, at the hospital where my medical school was training students, Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami, there were still segregated wards and segregated dining rooms for whites and blacks. I met a resident at the medical school, who had started eating his meals in the black cafeteria to integrate it, and I started doing the same with him. His name was Tom Brewer. It was very different. I was glad to leave Miami that time. I graduated medical school in 1961. I interned at Herrick Hospital in Berkeley, even though I was offered a prestigious internship in Miami, partly because, during medical school, I had met Ernest Hemingway's youngest son, Greg. And in the beginning of my second year of medical school, he invited me to go to a photographic safari to Angola the following summer with his roommate, Bob Kyle. And I told one of my professors I was going there. He said, "Well, as long as you are in Africa, in that part, why do not you see if you can visit the Albert Schweitzer Hospital in Gabon?" Because, at that time, the chief medical doctor under Albert Schweitzer, Frank Catchpool, had done some studies at the University of Miami Medical School in parasitology. So, I had a note of introduction to Dr. Catchpool, and I was able to, after our photographic safari in Angola, this was now the summer of 1959, I went to Lambaréné, and I met Albert Schweitzer and his daughter. And I was there, then, for two weeks. And when I returned and told one of my professors my adventures that summer, he said, "Well, I have just been made head of a committee that is going to award fellowships to medical students to study in remote areas of the world." He says, "If you get a letter inviting you back to this Schweitzer Hospital-"

SM (00:07:12):
Wow, what an experience.

ES (00:07:14):
Yeah. He said, "You can have this fellowship." So, I did obtain a letter inviting me back by Albert Schweitzer, and I returned in (19)60, or I spent the summer there at the Albert Schweitzer Hospital.

SM (00:07:34):
I can remember back in the late (19)50s, Jack Parr used to have a fascination with Albert Schweitzer and would I actually go visit him.

ES (00:07:42):
Yes, there were many, many visitors there.

SM (00:07:47):
Yeah, that was-

ES (00:07:48):
Yeah.

SM (00:07:49):
That experience itself, even before we start talking about your time in the Bay Area as in the (19)60s and the (19)70s and beyond, that experience of working with him for a year or two, what were you able to transfer into your future positions from that experience?

ES (00:08:10):
Well, his major philosophy was reverence for life, for all life. And this was the first exposure I had to, what is now called, ecology. Nothing was killed there unnecessarily. If they were doing construction work, rolling a wheelbarrow, and they came across a line of ants, they would lift up the wheelbarrow in order not to crush the ants. They would build around trees rather than cut down the trees. They tried to keep the hospital there as much like a native village as possible so that the area would be comfortable there. I had another chance to return there in 1965. Actually, it was through Greg Hemingway again, he is now dead. He died a woman. But he was offered this fellowship, but he could not do it and he recommended me. So, I flew to Boston and met with the head of the foundation, the International Cardiology Foundation, who is Paul Dudley White. Dr. White was President Eisenhower's physician.

SM (00:09:45):
Oh, yes.

ES (00:09:47):
And Dr. White was the one who really popularized the idea of riding bicycles you see now. So, then, I returned to Gabon while I was training to go there to do this research. It was a research project involving hypertension in Gabon because there were indications that was prevalent there, and it turns out that it was. And it seems to be a genetic predisposition in black people, and we see this here. We used to think that it was due to stress or racial discrimination, but it turns out not to be the case. During a few weeks before I was set to go there, Albert Schweitzer died. Dr. White asked me to go there anyway to conduct the research, so I had a chance to see the hospital before and after his death. Just before I left, I had an opportunity to take LSD. It was legal at that time. And so, I was, of course, interested in the effects of psychedelics, drugs in general. When I returned to Gabon that third time, I learned that native doctors there used a drug called Ibogaine. Actually, they used the plant that it comes from, the Iboga plant, in their ceremonies and for healing patients. And so, I had a chance to observe and participate in Iboga ceremonies there in Africa. And when I returned, on the way back, I stopped in France and obtained a quantity of Ibogaine, which was being prepared by a French pharmaceutical company. At that time, they would use small amounts of Ibogaine combined with vitamins as a pick-up tonic because small amounts of psychedelic, including LSD, act as a stimulant before they have the psychedelic effect in larger dose. They were also using Ibogaine at that time experimentally in French mental hospitals. So, when I returned to the United States to the Bay Area, I had a chance to do some work with the Ibogaine, and I was introduced to a doctor who had later started the free clinic movement, David Smith. See, I skipped a part where from 1963 to (19)64, I was at Yale University. I obtained a master's of public health there, and then that summer I was a ships doctor. That is it. Depression here. So, while doing work at the University of California at San Francisco, we were doing experiments with amphetamines on laboratory animals and some experimentation with the Ibogaine on ourselves. Dr. Smith had the idea of organizing the little free clinics that had been started by the digger movement, and I had an idea about having a newspaper column dealing with questions and answers about drugs and other issues at the time. Around that time, the Berkeley Barb was started by a fellow named Max Scherr. Berkeley Barb was one of the first underground newspapers. I guess The Realist was probably the first Realist Underground magazine.

SM (00:14:25):
Right.

ES (00:14:30):
And so, I mentioned this to Mr. Scherr and he said, "Well, why do not you write a column?" I had always wanted to write in some fashion, but I had not thought about writing for newspapers or a medical column. But I started doing that. At first, I would use questions that people had asked me personally because it was a time when people were first starting to use drugs, such as marijuana and LSD, and people were eager to have questions answered about those drugs, and also about sexual activities. That time there were no easily available sources of information answering questions about sex and drugs, certainly not papers.

SM (00:15:27):
One of the things, right around that time, (19)65, (19)66, leading up to the Summer of Love in (19)67, how did the youth of the (19)60s differ from the youth of the (19)50s that you grew up with from your vantage point? And where did you see this change in the Bay Area? Obviously there was some Bohemian lifestyle over at Berkeley at all times, and of course the Beatniks were very popular in New York and Greenwich Village and in San Francisco, and-

ES (00:16:02):
Yes.

SM (00:16:03):
...so forth. But when did you see this shift, from your personal perspective, this big change happening in the way people's attitudes were, how young people were changing? It was a counter-cultural movement, a change.

ES (00:16:19):
Yes. From my point of view, I mean, maybe it was because I was living, but it seemed that it had started in the San Francisco area. Yes, you mentioned the Beatniks, and it was because it was a shift from the Eisenhower era. There were little coffee shops in San Francisco and in Berkeley. There was one called The Coexistence Bagel Shop because it was a time when speaking about coexistence with Russia after the Great Scare, the Evil Empire. So, it was a parody of the political situation at the time. I think that is when the shift occurred because people started to look at Russia not as a great enemy, but as something that we could exist with. That is why they call it Coexistence Bagel Shop. They were Beatniks. Mostly, the Beatniks were smoking cigarettes and drinking cheap wine. But there were some who started using marijuana, and that is when I first started seeing fairly large-scale marijuana use. Though my first exposure to it, though I did not use marijuana then, was an uncle I had when I was 14. It was in 1949. I had an uncle who he was an actor, a dance instructor, and went to borrow a jacket of his. In the jacket, I found this little yellow cigarette. I asked him if it was marijuana, and he said, matter-of-factly, "Yes." I did not try it then. It was my first exposure. The first time I saw fair numbers of people smoking marijuana was the Beatniks, and this was in 1958 because that summer, it was after my first year of medical school, I spent the next summer in Berkeley. That is when I first saw it. I think the combination of the philosophy and the lifestyle of the Beatniks led to the hippies.

SM (00:19:23):
Yeah. Obviously, you are coming from, you are not that much older, but you are almost like the graduate student or the PhD candidate compared to the incoming students that would have been the young boomers. Do you have any thoughts on them as a generation? You have seen them not only as a doctor, they have been your patients. You have seen them not only when they were young in the Summer of Love, but you have been able to see them as they have grown up into now. 63 is the front-runners of the baby boomers, and the youngest baby boomers are 47. If you were to list some strengths and weaknesses within this generation, can you list some?

ES (00:20:07):
Well, I think they had some strengths because their parents, which were generally more prosperous because the Second World War produced prosperity. At least, everyone was working as compared with when I was born, which was during the depression. So, I think they had more of a sense of self-assurance in that way, and I think it was because of the fact that their parents generally were not poor. They were not on bread lines. I mean, have not thought about this before this, going through this in my mind. So, I think that because of generally maybe having more assurance, they would probably be more open, less fixed on things that would give them more dependability. I think that produce some greater openness to other ideas. And that is what happened, as you say, leading up to the Summer of Love. I think they were more open to a lot of things, including more open sexuality and perhaps exploring their minds through means, such as drugs. And paradoxically, the drug use led to people being more open to ideas, which did not have things directly to do with drugs, such as meditation and yoga, et cetera, other spiritual practices. Not that all of that was good because one thing that has happened from all that is a suspicion and disdain for science, a feeling that if one has a gut reaction to something, that must be more true than using the scientific method, and that came from the fact that they would use drugs. It happens now. For example, when people are using ecstasy, they generally have a feeling of great love and warmth for everyone around them at the time. I mean, that is why, when ecstasy was legal and used in therapy, the patients would be warned not to make any enduring alliances for a period of weeks after they last took it because those feelings would dissipate and were directly drug related.

SM (00:23:51):
One of the things that the generation, and we are talking 74 million boomers that were born between (19)46 and (19)64, and a lot of the ones that were at the Summer of Love, were the front running boomers, the boomers born in those first 10 years. I am finding that the difference between the boomers of the first 10 and the second 10 is major in terms of the way they lived. But your thoughts on this attitude that many of them felt they were the most unique generation in American history when they were young, and that the Summer of Love, like a lot of experiences of that period, were supposed to be symbolic of this, "We are going to change the world. We are going to bring peace, love, we are going to end homophobia, sexism, war. We are going to make the world a better place to live." And so, there is a feeling of uniqueness that they were better and different than the World War II generation or any of the generations that preceded them, and those that would follow. Your thoughts on that attitude that many of them had at that time. And even today, I know of several people that feel so very proud of being part of that generation that they still feel it.

ES (00:25:19):
Yeah. I mean, that is because the war, the war effort, the country was together then, I think, as never before or at any time since, and there was a feeling that we had been so powerful. We had conquered the axis powers, and there was, for a time, a feeling of hopefulness. The United Nations was going to be world peace. I think that certainly influenced that generation.

SM (00:26:04):
I have interviewed a lot of people. Some people thought that that showed a sense of arrogance within this generation. Do you feel that?

ES (00:26:11):
Well, I did not think of it that way, but I think of it as being over optimistic.

SM (00:26:25):
Okay. 1967, I got a whole mess of questions here and I got a lot of different areas to go, but I want to talk about (19)67 because it was a very historic event. What was it like being a doctor in San Francisco in (19)67, and what were the major issues that young people were facing at that time in the summer, whether it be drug issues, sexual freedom issues? I saw a great interview you did on YouTube with one of the commentators. He has a radio show. Hammond?

ES (00:26:58):
Oh, yeah. John Hammond.

SM (00:26:59):
That was an excellent interview.

ES (00:27:00):
Well, thank you.

SM (00:27:03):
And you had made a very important comment, and I wanted to bring this up. It was after the pill, and it was before AIDS.

ES (00:27:11):
That is right.

SM (00:27:12):
Could you talk about what you mean by that, especially in reference to the summer of (19)67?

ES (00:27:18):
All right. The true Summer of Love began in 1966, because that is when it was the beginning of large-scale LSD use, marijuana use, and associated openness to things, including sexuality. And so, because there was no longer the great fear of unwanted pregnancy due to the birth control pills and other effective contraceptive method, and whatever sexual infections might develop as a result could be treated then. And that is why it was before AIDS is, before, sexuality could be [inaudible]. So, as I say, the real Summer of Love began in 66, and that is what attracted people to San Francisco, where I was at the time, the following summer, in (19)67. I had started writing a newspaper column in March of 1967, and I invited people to send questions. And of course, then, questions were mostly about sexuality and drugs. People wanted to know what sexual diseases could occur, what the effects of various drugs were, and I had to do some research in these matters. But I was very interested in the fact that some columnists apparently make up letters. I never had to make up a letter. The letters were very-very interesting. And I started out writing the so-called underground press, so I would print the letters pretty much as they appeared in whatever language people used to describe or ask questions about sexual acts. When the newspaper column went to the San Francisco Chronicle, and then was syndicated nationally by the Universals Press syndicate, language was edited then.

ES (00:30:03):
Your language was edited then. Then it would appear general newspapers. But as I said, there was no easily accessible source of information that it was available in books. I would read books, around that time also, I saw her doing radio shows, and I am told I was the first person to answer medical questions live on the radio.

SM (00:30:36):
Is that in the entire country?

ES (00:30:38):
Yes.

SM (00:30:38):
Wow. That is quite a unique honor.

ES (00:30:42):
Yes. I was glad to do it. I knew it was important because I mentioned a little while ago that I had Master degree in public health from Yale, so I knew the importance of public health education. I saw this as a way of importing information that was important, and it was interesting. So a number of times I have had regular radio programs. I mean, this was before Dr. Dini Dell. Before [inaudible] or Dr. Ruth was publicly doing things.

SM (00:31:24):
Right. When the Summer of Love obviously is (19)67. And when we say Summer of Love, are we only talking about the summer? Are we talking only about a few months? Or are we talking about The entire 1967 year? One of the songs this was well known on the radio at the time was Scott McKenzie's song, if You are Going to San Francisco.

ES (00:31:50):
Yeah.

SM (00:31:51):
I cannot remember if that came out in (19)66 or (19)67, but I know that had a lot of influence on people.

ES (00:31:57):
Yes, it did. Yeah, I knew him. I met him a few times. Yeah, it did have an influence. Yes, it was not just the summer. As I said, it really began (19)66 and during the end of (19)66 and beginning of (19)67 people were starting to come to the Bay Area. Yes, influenced by songs like that, which I think some of the lyrics described how warm and bombing it was in San Francisco made all of us laugh your –

SM (00:32:33):
Well, I lived in Burlingame from (19)76 to (19)83, so I –

ES (00:32:38):
Yeah, so you know.

SM (00:32:39):
I love it out there though. It makes you feel good. Tweed Coats. I love my Tweed. I miss wearing my Tweed Coats. But yeah, it is really interesting. Another song that influenced was around (19)67 that got people to the West Coast, and I know it got me to the West Coast, was the Mamas and the Papas song, California Dreaming, which was another big hit that, especially if it went to college in the middle of the winter with a lot of snow on the ground. I had all these questions here in the Summer of Love. How did it start? You already talked about that. What was the draw? How did people know? Where did they come from? What was the average age?

ES (00:33:27):
They were?

SM (00:33:28):
Where did they stay when they came? And those kinds of things?

ES (00:33:33):
Well, there were young people generally who came, if they knew people here, they would stay with them, crash with them, share their apartments and homes. They were generally, at first, there were people who were interested in exploring, in exploring. Exploring themselves, exploring their minds, exploring things geographically. Later it became a [inaudible] so that people were coming because they knew that other people were coming. So it changed a lot. At first, you could tell things about someone by the way they dressed or the length of their hair, but that soon changed, so you could not tell anything about a person because the followers, those who just had heard about the Summer of Love and San Francisco come and there were a lot of disturbed people and a criminal element soon came in and started taking advantage of the –

SM (00:35:20):
Yes.

ES (00:35:24):
Open-minded young people who we came to know as hippies.

SM (00:35:31):
I think that is what Mr. Hammond said in his interview with you on YouTube is that (19)67 was the golden era, and then all hell broke loose at (19)68.

ES (00:35:42):
Yes.

SM (00:35:43):
And that is because the drug traffickers were coming in. People were dealing in drugs, and actually even a lot of the hippies and young people wanted to get the hell out of there because of things had changed.

ES (00:35:56):
Yes, and even the drugs changed because at first it was marijuana and LSD and other psychedelics. And then people came in, started selling heroin and amphetamines that changed a lot. So when people want to leave, then there was a feeling, well, we were going to get out of the city and go to the country. And that is how the Commune Right then started. People had the idea that they would try to be self-sufficient and grow their own food, raise their own animals back to the plan.

SM (00:36:44):
Yeah. Farm's a perfect example of that.

ES (00:36:47):
Yes, that is right.

SM (00:36:49):
Steven Gaskin and I interviewed Steven for my book, and that particular, he does not even like to use the term commune. Calls it the farm. They have been very successful and they were very proud of being hippies because it was more of an attitude. When I look at, there was a very popular book, you remember back in the early (19)70s, we had to read it in grad school called The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak.

ES (00:37:18):
Yes.

SM (00:37:19):
And that book –

ES (00:37:19):
I knew him. Yeah.

SM (00:37:20):
Yeah, well, I wanted to interview him, but I guess he is not well right now, and he has written another book as kind of a follow-up, but he really explained the counterculture, combining drugs, the sex, the dancing, the music, the dress, the attitude. It was all a combination of everything into different consciousness. Did you see that there? Was that a pretty good portrayal of what it was like in the Summer of Love?

ES (00:37:46):
Yes. As I say, you could tell which people were part of that movement often by their dress, because they were static dress, people would dress flamboyantly. I mean now I tell my wife in Halloween, which is as a big holiday out here.

SM (00:38:13):
Yeah, that is big.

ES (00:38:14):
So in the Summer of Love, everyone dressed like that every day. So...

SM (00:38:24):
You were in charge, correct if I am wrong, you were in charge of the health clinic? The Haight Ashbury Health Clinic?

ES (00:38:36):
I was not in charge. I was –

SM (00:38:38):
Associate Director or –

ES (00:38:41):
Yeah, I was Director of the Family Practice section of The Haight Ashbury Clinic whose directed by David Smith. He founded it, he directed it. I worked with them for a long time, and then later they have a rock medicine section, still exists. I worked at that also. It was long after the Summer of Love. But yes, I did. I helped through my newspaper columns. I helped publicize the Ashbury Clinic, let people know it was available and offered free services and the kinds of services that they provided.

SM (00:39:28):
On a typical day, let us say you were there, were you eight hours a day? Or you came in just on an assignment or what would it be A typical day in the Summer of Love with the young people coming in and out of there? What would be their issues?

ES (00:39:45):
Well, some people had unfortunate drug experiences. Sometimes there was, and they were concerned, have a bad trip, an LSD trip, and were upset by that. There were a lot of sexually transmitted diseases that were treated in Ashbury clinic, especially at that time because of the open sexuality. Naturally, the more exposure someone has, the more chance they have contracting a disease. So there is a lot of exposure and more disease, a lot of treatment of gonorrhea crabs at that time. Other sexually transmitted diseases.

SM (00:40:50):
Well, I know one of the bands that performed there in the summertime was the Grateful Dead, and I think they lived in Haight Ashbury.

ES (00:40:57):
Yes.

SM (00:40:57):
And lived. They had that same kind of an attitude, although they were much more successful cause they were a successful band. Can you talk about the combination of that experience again in the summer or were you combined not only the young people coming in, but, the music had to be a very important part of this. It was much more than the Grateful Dead. Who were the musicians and where were they coming from to be part of this? Were they all Bay Area musicians or were they coming from different parts of the country during different times of the summer?

ES (00:41:38):
Much of it was based here in the Bay Area. For example, the Jefferson Airplane, the local band Country Joe and the Fish and other bands. I think, Crosby Stills and Nash often was based here. Crosby lived in Mill Valley at that time, and they also operated a lot in Los Angeles. But the music at that time, I mean it was all intertwined with the drug use, the effects of the drugs, effects of the drugs on the music, and then the music affecting drug use. I thought that generally the overall effect was positive. Of course, we know there were disasters for some people, plus it was a lot of indiscriminate drug use during that time. Tim Leary –

SM (00:42:58):
Hold on one second, I am going to change my tape here. All righty. We are back.

ES (00:43:08):
During that time, I became acquainted and then friends with Tim Leary and his family, and I became a family doctor for the Leary family at that time. And Tim was very charismatic, very bright. He had a good sense of humor, but I always found objectionable is it was sorting people to take LSD all the time was not for everyone. Certainly not for unstable people, and not to be taken all the time as he had proposed, he was telling people to use LSD once a week, and I did not think that was a good idea at all.

SM (00:44:03):
What is your thought about that famous slogan of his tune on –

ES (00:44:10):
Yeah, turn on –

SM (00:44:13):
Turn-on dropout or whatever.

ES (00:44:14):
Yeah.

SM (00:44:15):
Tune in turn on dropout. What are your thoughts on that? Of course, he was also linked to the Ram Dass.

ES (00:44:18):
Yes.

SM (00:44:22):
And Ram Dass went on to be very successful as a writer. I guess he has had a stroke recently, but –

ES (00:44:25):
He had a stroke.

SM (00:44:27):
But they were kind of linked too. But just your thoughts on that whole kind of an attitude?

ES (00:44:33):
Well, Tim had a great way of, with phrases, and I was interesting phrase and turn on and drop out. I said to him at the time, I said, Tim, you have got a PhD. I have an MD. You are telling these kids to drop out of college. And a lot of them did because there are more followers and leaders, and a lot of lives were disrupted that way. I did not think that was a good idea at all. And it was because of the indiscriminate use and abuse of LSD and other psychedelics that the legitimate use was thwarted. Only now, only in the last year or so has the government begun to approve studies of LSD and psilocybin and MDMA or ecstasy, and we are back to where we were in 1966 when they were doing the same preliminary studies. Maybe now they will continue them and permit them, but as I said, it was because of [inaudible] K was largely cost of 10 at 10 TC that yes, that the government clamped down and stomped. I think it is a great shame. I think these drugs have a very good potential for use in therapy. And when there is no psychiatric illness for self-exploration.

SM (00:46:29):
How would you, for example, a critic of, I am just using, I am being the devil's advocate here, that a critic of the total drug culture, maybe not marijuana, but everything else, is that, what is wrong with reality itself? Why get away from reality and go into drugs and get another reality? And then secondly, what is the effect that drugs had on that generation? I do not know if anybody's ever even written a book on the number of young people who died from ODing on drugs. We know what happened to Jimi Hendrix and Janice Joplin and Jim Morrison and some of the well-known people who OD'ed on drugs. You would think that might have had a negative effect on the drug culture.

ES (00:47:16):
Yeah, I mean, they all OD'ed on opioids, which I cannot see if they expand consciousness at all. I feel like this has the beginning of that.

SM (00:47:33):
Yeah, the beginning was critics, so I am a person –

ES (00:47:36):
So what is wrong with reality?

SM (00:47:40):
Yeah you know, is life –

ES (00:47:42):
One thing that the psychedelics do is put people in touch with the unconscious, which is part of reality. It is just that normally we do not have access that way to our unconscious except in dreams in some form. So by giving us access to our unconscious, we have an expanded knowledge of reality because that is part of reality.

SM (00:48:25):
What –

ES (00:48:27):
Thought that these consciousness expanding drugs produce a better reality, this expands our knowledge of reality.

SM (00:48:42):
Well, the 40th anniversary that took place in 2007, I saw little segments of that on television and certainly on YouTube and other places.

ES (00:48:53):
Yeah.

SM (00:48:53):
Was it basically people that experienced it coming back there, or was it basically a combination of young people and older people?

ES (00:49:06):
It was a mix, but certainly it included a large number of people who had lived through the (19)60s, many of whom had been at Woodstock, many of whom had been in San Francisco at the Summer of Love those celebrations, but there were a number of younger people.

SM (00:49:32):
How did you get the name Dr. Hipp? Dr. Hippocrates.

ES (00:49:38):
Right. Started when I was asked to do the newspaper column, the publisher of the Berkeley Barb Max Scherr said, well, what should we call the column? I said, well, what do you mean? Just use my name? Says well know we have a hippies here? How about calling it Hippocrates? I said, okay.

SM (00:50:03):
Right.

ES (00:50:03):
So it was Hippocrates. And then some of the newspapers started calling the column Dr. Hippocrates, and then some of them shortened it to Dr. Hipp, and then they started calling me Dr. Hipp. So that is how I became Dr. Hipp.

SM (00:50:22):
Now, when you walk around the Bay Area, do they call you by your real name or do they call you Dr. Hipp?

ES (00:50:26):
Well, some of the older individuals still remember me as Dr. Hipp.

SM (00:50:33):
That that is a very good feeling though. That you had an influence on people's lives for the better. And one thing we always ask ourselves as human beings is we want to make a difference in this world. And obviously you have in the many things that you have done, particularly with all your work in medicine.

ES (00:50:52):
Yeah, I have tried. I always gave a lot of attention to my work, writing newspapers, writing the papers, writing articles, doing my radio shows, because I knew that if people listened, they were eager to receive information and would act on it. So I was always trying to be careful about the advice that I gave.

SM (00:51:22):
Did you see the Generation gap when you were there working with these young people? In other words, did you have, I am sure there were experiences where parents somehow got back into San Francisco and found their son or daughter and said, we were going to take you home. Did you have any of those experiences where the big generation gap was taking place?

ES (00:51:41):
Yes. I mean, I cannot think of any specifics right now, but yes, of course parents were concerned because sometimes their children would run away. And then when they found their kids, their kids were using drugs that the parents were unfamiliar with, concerned about, and often, rightly so. Yes. And that is how the Gap stores the clothing stores. They used to be called a Generation Gap, and then they became The Gap.

SM (00:52:18):
Oh, I did not know that.

ES (00:52:19):
Yes.

SM (00:52:20):
Wow. Was also the Summer of Love really all-inclusive in terms of ethnic background? Were there African Americans there in large numbers, Latinas, Asian Americans? Was it a combination? Was everybody involved?

ES (00:52:35):
Yeah. Yes, it was. And part of what was happening was that there was a greater acceptance of different ethnic groups and races and religious beliefs. And that was one of the benefits of that time.

SM (00:52:57):
Was the music the same way? In other words, you might have the Grateful Dead one day and the Staple Singers the next, was it a kind of a different, all kinds of music?

ES (00:53:07):
Yes. And it was also when people started becoming interested in reggae, of course, and –

SM (00:53:12):
Right.

ES (00:53:12):
Reggae associated with marijuana you know in Jamaica?

SM (00:53:20):
Yeah. I remember when I lived out there, I used to go to some of the blues concerts at the Shell at Golden Gate Park.

ES (00:53:28):
Yes.

SM (00:53:29):
And I remember seeing Red, not Simply Red, the Rock Singer, I remember Red was his name. He is passed away. But it was one of the best concerts I have ever been at all day on a Saturday, I believe, of all these great blues singers. One of the other thing too is how, let us see, who were some of your mentors and role models yourself? People that inspired you, not only, you have already mentioned some of your relatives and people that influenced you to become a doctor, but were there people in America at the time that you looked up to, whether it be politicians –

ES (00:54:11):
Less or a lot of skepticism regarding so-called gurus and groups? I think that skepticism came from growing up in a communist house. Hearing and seeing the slogans at that time. And then in the (19)60s, those slogans, it was to me, seemed empty. Slogans were repeated, and I thought, oh yeah, workers are going to overthrow the bosses, things like that. So I never actively pursued any spiritual group or person. It usually would happen accidentally. Like being exposed to and having experiences with Albert Schweitzer, that was very important to me. I was close to him and to his family. And his daughter died about a year and a half ago, and she was 90, remained close to her, to her death because she lived then in Los Angeles Pacific lsa-

SM (00:55:40):
Right. You had mentioned that on your YouTube interview.

ES (00:55:42):
Yeah. So that was very important. I think that for a long time I spent a lot of time with Tim Leary, and during that time, got to meet a lot of people. There was a lot of traffic through his house. That is when I met from Ram Dass then as Richard Alpert, Ralph Metzner. And it influenced me at the same time that I was, by that time, I knew that matter how famous a person was, no matter how well known or how revered the person, he or she had play feet, just like Albert Schweitzer. I would see failings in him -blow was his greatness. So...

SM (00:56:44):
I can remember there was a scene with Timothy Leary, along with John Lennon and Yoko Oho and Tommy Smothers. I remember when he was doing in the bed.

ES (00:56:54):
Yes, that is right.

SM (00:56:55):
And I remember Timothy Leary was there. I said, this guy was everywhere. How did the city of San Francisco deal with all these people coming in? Was there a good relationship between the young people of the Summer of Love and the police and the political leaders at that time?

ES (00:57:16):
Initially it was okay, but then as more and more young people came, there was more concern, especially from the police. It did not, that period of goodwill did not last very long. Because again, because of the great numbers of people came, especially in the Haight Ashbury section of San Francisco, and the resulting situations, including the rampant drug use, camping out, being out begging.

SM (00:57:59):
Remember Harry Reasoner, the ABC did a report once on TV and I still remember seeing it, and it was when they were doing tourists going through Haight Ashbury.

ES (00:58:08):
Yeah, the Gray Line Tourists, you –

SM (00:58:13):
Yeah. And he was there for a couple of days, I think, doing a report. And what is interesting after living out there to see how expensive those Victorian homes now are that were in Haight Ashbury.

ES (00:58:22):
Oh yeah. They are all million-dollar homes now.

SM (00:58:25):
Yeah. It is amazing. In those days, they were kind of falling apart, I think.

ES (00:58:31):
Yep.

SM (00:58:32):
What is your, just for you to define things, I asked Steve Gaskins this too. If you could define in your words what a hippie is, what a beatnik is, and your definition of a counterculture. So first off, in your definition of a hippie.

ES (00:58:54):
Well, these were people who were willing to depart from the usual career paths that people took. They had a more open attitude towards sexual freedom, toward the roles of men and women. A greater appreciation for nature. Know the benefits of unspoiled nature, and an openness toward exploring their minds, whether it be through spiritual practices or through the use of drugs, or both.

SM (00:59:53):
And a beatnik?

ES (00:59:54):
Part of it. That is why, oh, they start it longhaired hippies. Well, started thinking, well, why do we have to cut our hair in a certain way?

ES (01:00:03):
...do we have to cut our hair in a certain way? Why are neckties a uniform that one must wear? When you think about really, even now, why do people wear neckties? And we have buttons now to close our shirts. Need a necktie to do. It was originally done. So there was a questioning. People were asking questions. Remember one of the slogans at the time, question authority? So it was the willingness to question all kinds of things. Some of that did not lead to good things because over generations and hundreds or thousands of years, humans have learned there are certain things, certain ways to behave socially. When people indiscriminately did not follow those customs or habits, there were bad results sometimes.

SM (01:01:31):
Mm-hmm. Hold. Okay. How would you define a beatnik?

ES (01:01:37):
Well, beatniks, I think that came from, if I am not mistaken, Herb Caen coined that term. Herb Caen, the late columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle. First they were called the beats. I guess he felt beaten down by society. It was a style of drinking excessive amounts of cheap wine, smoking lots of tobacco. You are beat. You are trying to express the way that they felt at that time.

SM (01:02:38):
And lastly, how would you define the counterculture? Your definition of the counterculture?

ES (01:02:46):
Well, it was a reaction to the overall culture. So it was less conformity for the sake of conformity. And that led to differences in dress, the type of music that was composed and played. Art was just by definition counter mean quite the opposite of the general culture or against general culture. But when people found things in the culture that they found objectionable, they tried to act on it.

SM (01:03:40):
Vietnam veterans, obviously, I got some questions here on Vietnam in a minute, but there were Vietnam veterans even coming back, and I am sure there were some in the Summer of Love that had served already in Vietnam between (19)65 and (19)67.

ES (01:03:56):
Yes.

SM (01:03:57):
In looking at your biography, you worked I think in a veterans facility at one time. Did you see a lot of post-traumatic stress disorder of vets coming back?

ES (01:04:10):
You mean at that time?

SM (01:04:11):
Yes.

ES (01:04:16):
Yes, there were people who were traumatized. For example, I know Ron Kovic a little bit. Certainly he was traumatized physically as well as mentally.

SM (01:04:34):
Was it pretty common? Because I have been talking recently with some Iraq veterans who have come back from Iraq, and it was almost a hundred percent post-traumatic stress disorder within groups.

ES (01:04:49):
Well, it was not known then as post-traumatic stress disorder. You remember they call it shell shocked, battle fatigue, things of that kind. But as PTSD became better known, it was I think why there was more autism now. It was recognized more and reported more. I think that is why there is as much PTSD the Iraq War. In the Vietnam War, it was a great rejection of many of the veterans who came back, even though most of them were conscripts. The Iraq War were all volunteers. There is no draft now. But I think because of greater recognition and publicity about the fact that PTSD may occur.

SM (01:06:06):
When you were out there... Well, you have lived out there your whole life there. But there were some specific historic events at Berkeley. The Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65, Mario Savio and that group. And then People's Park in (19)69, of which one person was killed during that.

ES (01:06:26):
Yes. I was there during those demonstrations. I wrote about. I have published four books so far. The first two were based on newspaper columns, articles. I wrote about the People's Park in a book called Natural Food and Unnatural Acts. It was published by Delacorte. Yes, it was a tumultuous time. It was very disturbing and startling to be exposed to the National Guard so often, tear gas. I am very sensitive to tear gas. Tear gas is released near me, and I cannot stay around. So a number of times I was at the People's Park demonstration.

SM (01:07:36):
That was actually when Ronald Reagan was governor, I believe. When he came into power, he promised two things: that he was going to set the students straight, number one, and number two, that he was going to end welfare. And I know I have interviewed Ed Meese, who was the assistant district attorney of Alameda County, who was there at the Free Speech Movement. But he was not working for Reagan then; Reagan was People's Park.

ES (01:08:06):
Right.

SM (01:08:08):
And they had come really hard down on those people. That is part of the history of that period, but what effect do you think that had on the boomer generation as a whole? Because it was all over the news.

ES (01:08:28):
It was shocking. Well, first, there had not been large demonstrations by students, political demonstrations like that before, at least that I have been aware of. When I was a student in Berkeley, the only large demonstrations then were panty raid. I do not know if you remember the panty raids, but there were a couple of big panty raids at Berkeley where there were thousands of students gathered, and they would go into the sorority houses and rifle through the drawers and get panties. It was silly, but it was the first time that I saw thousands of people out in the street and then a police presence which followed. When it happened for political reasons it was dramatic, it was exciting, and it was disturbing. I had demonstrated against the Vietnam War, and I was at a protest at the Oakland Induction Center and this club there. But there I saw for the first time that these demonstrations might turn violent. I saw a police car overturned and burned, which I did not care for. I was then so recently coming from the experiences I had with Albert Schweitzer and Reverence for Life, that things should be hurt or killed unnecessarily. And I saw that turning very disturbing.

SM (01:10:47):
When did the (19)60s begin in your opinion, and when did it end?

ES (01:10:51):
Well, let us see. (19)60s, about 1963, I would say, (19)64. I know you are not talking about the literal terminology. About (19)63 I think it corresponded in a way with the assassination of JFK. I was a student at Yale at that time that it happened.

SM (01:11:38):
Do you remember where you were when you heard the news?

ES (01:11:42):
Yes. I was meeting with a faculty advisor, and his secretary came into the office and said, "The president has been shot and likely killed." This professor says to me calmly, "Well, these things happen." And he tried to go on with our meeting. I said, "Well, let us meet another time." So I remember exactly what happened.

SM (01:12:09):
And were you one of those individuals watching the TV all weekend?

ES (01:12:13):
Yes, to the TV then. I think that is when it really started. Maybe a little bit before with the Cuban Missile Crisis.

SM (01:12:26):
Right. (19)62. When did it end?

ES (01:12:32):
I think it ended with the Altamont concert.

SM (01:12:38):
You are not the only one that said that. Some people said they thought it ended with Kent State too, because that was a terrible tragedy.

ES (01:12:45):
Yeah, and that really dampened the student demonstrations. I know people I have talked to about that, some disagree, but I noticed that after the Kent State shootings, there were fewer demonstrations. Actually, people were afraid, rightly so. But I think it really ended at Altamont, because it was such a terrible scene. I was there.

SM (01:13:14):
Oh, you were there?

ES (01:13:16):
Yes.

SM (01:13:17):
Oh, wow.

ES (01:13:18):
I wrote about that too. That is also in the book, Natural Food and Unnatural Acts.

SM (01:13:24):
I got to get that book. Is that book still in print?

ES (01:13:26):
No. I think you can get it on Amazon or something.

SM (01:13:28):
Okay. I am going to order it then.

ES (01:13:32):
I always thought that book was a good history of the (19)60s. It was a terrible scene. It was so ugly. I did not go to a large concert seven years after.

SM (01:13:49):
I heard stories that the group responsible for getting the Hell's Angels there was Jerry Garcia. Is there truth to that?

ES (01:13:57):
Yes.

SM (01:13:59):
And he felt guilty the rest of his life?

ES (01:14:03):
Yeah, I think so. I knew him. They always had a relationship with the Hells Angels. Hells Angels were fans of the Grateful Dead. And they were asked to do security there in exchange for, I do not know, so many cases of beer. So it was a huge mistake. There was an interview later after that with Sonny Barger, who was then the head of Hells Angels. He said someone kicked their motorcycles, so they were in a rage about that.

SM (01:14:52):
They killed one person. Did they injure other people too?

ES (01:14:55):
Yes, there were other people injured. There were other people injured by Hells Angels, no one else killed by it. There was another death there. There was someone who was run over by a car accidentally.

SM (01:15:10):
Was not the Rolling Stones performing when that happened?

ES (01:15:13):
Yes.

SM (01:15:15):
Did the concert end?

ES (01:15:17):
No.

SM (01:15:17):
It kept going on?

ES (01:15:18):
It kept going on. Mick Jagger did ask people to calm down. The part of the problem was that, well, first it started off as a nice day, then it became overcast and gloomy, and everyone was waiting for the Rolling Stones to go on. They would not go on until dark fell. By that time, things were unruly. And the concert had been put together at the last minute. Anyway, that is the site, I think the last minute, it was a kind of frenzy that developed. And then the Rolling Stones would not go on until dark fell. And then Mick Jagger was singing Sympathy for the Devil and doing that. The Hells Angels, during that time, they were beating people with a pool cue.

SM (01:16:20):
And they were in the front of the stage and to the left and right of the stage, I guess.

ES (01:16:23):
Yes, and the stage was not high enough so that people could attempt to go on the stage, and they were pushed off and hit by the Hells Angels.

SM (01:16:34):
Were the Hells Angels drunk?

ES (01:16:40):
I do not know what they were using. I do not know. I have had various dealings with them over the years. I do not know if you know anything about my current work or not.

SM (01:16:53):
I do not.

ES (01:16:56):
I do a lot of consulting with lawyers in both civil and criminal cases, usually about the effects of psychoactive drugs, but sometimes other issues as well. So sometimes lawyers for the Hells Angels have asked me to help in their cases. And sometimes they have been referred to me or their wives for treatment, either for drug abuse or for their other issues.

SM (01:17:36):
Is there one specific event that you feel had the greatest impact on boomers, that is those born between (19)46 and (19)64? You may have already said it, but do you think there is one event that more than any other shaped this generation?

ES (01:17:53):
Well, it was not one event, but I think you know that Woodstock epitomized a lot of things that were happening. It involved music, drug use, large crowds at that time being able to get along without a lot of disruptions, a lot of fights. I think that and what it represented was probably. But it was not any one event like that. It was the Vietnam War.

SM (01:18:48):
Do you like the term the boomer generation? I say that because I have had a lot of different opinions from people. And if not the boomer generation, what would be a better term? Would it be the Vietnam generation, the counter-culture generation, the Woodstock generation? What do you think best applies to this group in terms of terminology?

ES (01:19:15):
I would say the Woodstock generation, the Summer of Love. Except the Summer of Love, just by definition, specifies one summer. Whereas even though Woodstock generation refers to one event, it really refers to more than one event.

SM (01:19:41):
You have obviously seen boomers from many different angles over the years. And I know you cannot talk about 74 million here, but do you think that boom generation has been good parents and now grandparents? In other words, have they sat down and shared their experiences with their sons and daughters over the years, what it was like then, get a better understanding of the times? I always get at the term activism, because some people say the generations have followed have not been as activist as their parents. Although only 15 percent probably were active to begin with in that generation.

ES (01:20:23):
That is right.

SM (01:20:25):
In your practice, have you had issues where a lot of the boomers feel they have either not been good parents or good parents or kids having issues with their parents?

ES (01:20:42):
Yes, but kids have always had issues with their parents. You see some things now. I have had several patients who were named Che after Che Guevara, just as during the (19)60s and (19)70s, would name their kids things like Krishna and Sunflower, Willow Wisp, names that they might not use later. But I think to myself, this is interesting. I know what it is like to be given the name that one might not have chosen for himself. I was given the name of Lenin. So when I see people now that are named Krishna or Che, it kind of amuses me in a way. I do not know if there are better or worse parents. I think that those who went through these years have had experiences and have had a different sense of reality and hopefully an expanded sense of realities. Maybe they could be better parents.

SM (01:22:15):
Let me change. Just changing my tape here. Very good. I am back. Where was I here?

ES (01:22:23):
You were asking where the boomers were [inaudible]

SM (01:22:25):
Yes. I want your thoughts. You have obviously lived in the Bay Area. You have seen the Summer of Love. You have seen the protests against the Vietnam War. You saw the Free Speech Movement, for which I think is one of the most historic events ever in higher ed, because that was my career. And when you talk about freedom of speech, you got to talk the Free Speech Movement. But of course, the protests against the Vietnam War and the Love. But I would like your thoughts on, there seemed to be at that time, in this late (19)60s and early (19)70s, a more camaraderie between the movements. The Civil Rights movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, and the women's movement, and of course the environmental movement and the anti-war.

ES (01:23:17):
Yes.

SM (01:23:17):
In fact, in 1970, before they even did Earth Day, Senator Nelson and Dennis Hayes met with the anti-war people to make sure that they were not stepping on their turf. And they worked together, and they supported it a hundred percent. And the rallies, you saw signs all over the place. I do not sense that today. I sense rallies now where it is single issue. It is the issue they are involved in. Do you sense that too?

ES (01:23:46):
Yeah. In fact, you mentioned the Free Speech Movement. I am distressed by the suppression of free speech now on college campuses. If there is someone who expresses views that some students do not like, they will Mao them. They will shut them down. They will not permit them to speak. It is distressing to me. Whether it is someone from the right or the left, I think freedom of speech and of the press are the most important freedoms that we have.

SM (01:24:25):
I agree.

ES (01:24:25):
There is nothing else. Without them all the other freedoms go away.

SM (01:24:34):
Yeah. I interviewed Dr. Arthur Chickering, I do not know if you know him. He was a great professor who wrote Education and Identity, which was a required text in grad programs in higher ed. We had to read it; it was required. It was the seven vectors of development in human beings. And when I interviewed him about three or four months ago, I just asked him his final thoughts on what was going on in higher ed today. And he said the universities are now controlled again by the corporations, and he was very upset about that. That was what students were fighting for in many respects in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, is that the corporate takeover of universities, and of course research institutions are part of it. And there is good positive things there, but it seems like everything is bottom line today. That anything that threatens the bottom line you cannot have, so that includes controversial speakers. They talk about free speech, but in reality they are fearful of it for fear it could affect the bottom line. Do you feel that is what is happening in universities?

ES (01:25:45):
No, I was referring to student groups that suppress free speech.

SM (01:25:51):
Right. Well, I see that too. But you do not see universities doing it too?

ES (01:25:56):
Yes, and it is disturbing. It is like creeping fascism. It is part of this marriage of business and government. That is how fascism originated. In fact, that is the definition of fascism, really, is corporate government. And the bad things of fascism develop from that. So that when you have corporations controlling government and governmental institutions, including colleges and universities, yes, it suppresses free thought.

SM (01:26:50):
It is interesting that today the people that run the universities are the boomers too, and Generation Xers, which is the generation that followed.

ES (01:26:59):
Yes.

SM (01:26:59):
And so they experienced everything from the (19)60s. And like your thoughts, I sense there is a fear of the term activism on university's campuses. Volunteerism is a safe term. Activism is a scary term, because it is almost 24/7, and it is much more challenging, and it brings back memories of the past. Do you feel that is present?

ES (01:27:26):
Yes. It is certainly a change, and it is not a good change.

SM (01:27:38):
There is two basic questions I have been asking every interviewee. One of them is a question that was organized and put together by a group of students I took to Washington DC in 1995 to meet former Senator Edmund Muskie. They were not born at the time in 1968, but they wanted to ask him a question as the vice-presidential candidate about everything that was happening in Chicago that year. This is the question they came up with. Do you feel, Senator Muskie, that we are still having problems with healing due to the extreme divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white, male and female, straight and gay, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. What role has the Wall in Washington DC played in healing of divisions for veterans? But most importantly, do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Are we wrong in thinking this, or has 35 years made the following statement true: Time heals all wounds? I will let you know what Senator Muskie said after I get your response.

ES (01:28:59):
Well, it is true that time heals. The Vietnam Wall alone could not heal the divisions that arose over the war. One thing that I did notice is that whereas the veterans of the Vietnam War, even though most were conscripts, were reviled, you do not see that now with the veterans of the Iraq War. They are volunteers. So I think that is in a way an improvement. Whether those divisions have yet, yes, time heals. It is better now than it was.

SM (01:29:51):
I think that the students had saw the assassinations of that year, (19)60, and of Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King. Certainly the city's going up in fire in the (19)60s.

SM (01:30:03):
The cities going up in fire in the (19)60s, the burnings in Watts, and of course the protest movement. They had also seen the Hard Hats in New York City going, wanting to clobber the anti-war people. They had seen all of this stuff when they came to this. The Senator Muskie responded this way. He did not even respond in 1968. He basically said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." I said, " We still have the issues of race like we did back then." The students sat there, and not shocked, but just listened to them because he gave a melodramatic pause for about a minute. It looked like he had tears in his eyes, that we saw when people said he was a weak candidate because people had attacked his wife when he was a candidate. Then he went into a description about 430,000 men being killed in the Civil War. He had just seen the Ken Burns series, almost an entire generation. That is when he went at talking about the lack of healing since the Civil War. I put two and two together, because if you go to Gettysburg, if you have been there, they have this statue of the last living person who was in the Civil War. He died in 1924. I took students there. So a combination of all these things came to that question. The healing is a big issue, because there were so many divisions. But you agree that you think time does heal?

ES (01:31:48):
I think so. I was thinking what you said about Muskie said, the division since the Civil War. There was a time when, during Summer of Love, during that time, it was right after and during the civil rights demonstrations. There was a time when there were much better relations between Black and white. Then that changed with the rise of the militant groups, such as Black Panthers, which, in an attempt to give Black people pride, turned against whites. But I thought that was not a good time, and I think that persists today, to a large extent. It seemed-

SM (01:32:50):
Yes.

ES (01:32:51):
...there was more integration then, than now. Now you always read about, in colleges, Blacks always being separate from whites.

SM (01:33:08):
Right.

ES (01:33:08):
In the (19)60s, did not have that so much. There was a brief period where you did not have that.

SM (01:33:17):
In your opinion, why did the Vietnam War end?

ES (01:33:22):
Oh, I think a lot of it has to do with the student demonstrations, the general consensus that it was wrong that we were there. The numbers of people who were killed, well, Vietnamese and American.

SM (01:33:47):
How do you respond to the people, like the Newt Gingrich's of the world, or George Will, who oftentimes will write in his books, commentary on the (19)60s generation, or that period in American history, as placing the blame for the breakdown of American society based on that time. They are making reference to the drug culture, the freedom of sexuality, the lack of respect for authority, maybe even the beginning of the isms. Just the breakdown of the way it was maybe in the (19)50s. I do not know. But your thoughts? Because those critics are still out there, and they are still making comments. You can see it on the Huckabee's television show all the time. We are going to make a reference to the (19)60s generation, and a lot of the issues that we face in our society today. Problems go back at that time. The divorce rate is another one, the high divorce rate, not having a commitment to a relationship, all these things. Just your thoughts on the critics of that time and era.

ES (01:35:05):
Well, some of the criticisms are valid, but I think that, overall, good came out of that period of time. We see that in the interest in maintaining, preserving, and improving the environment, in openness to new ideas, and arts and music. Overall, I think was good. Bad things also occurred. The people who were harmed by drug abuse. The change in a reaction to marriage, where it used to be felt that one married, it was forever. My parents married for almost 60 years before my mother died. When I first came out to Berkeley, when I had some roommates and friends at a residence where I was, I surprised by the number of people who came from divorced families. Of course, that has changed more and more. Divorce, that is not a good thing. I still think that when married, you should go into it thinking you are always going to be married. Not with the idea that many people have that, "Oh, you could always get divorced if things do not work out," but that is not a good thing. I think, overall, a lot of good came out of it. And I think these critics are, yes, reactionary. They are looking backwards. They are thinking, perhaps, of a time that did not really exist except in their imagination.

SM (01:37:17):
One of the other qualities, the second question, besides healing, is the issue of trust. There were lots of reasons why boomers did not trust their leaders, because they saw President Johnson lie about the Gulf of Tonkin. We saw Richard Nixon in Watergate. There were even rumblings that President Kennedy was not above board, with respect to the overthrow of the Diem regime.

ES (01:37:42):
Right.

SM (01:37:42):
Vietnam. And certainly even if you really were up on things, Eisenhower had even lied to the American public about you too. McNamara, and all these numbers, where they were giving numbers of the dead, and it could have been a whole pasture cows, and they were including them as well. Trust, or lacking trust, is a quality that many people link to this generation. Your thoughts on how important trust is, and secondly, whether there is truth to that. Secondly, one of my professors once said to us in a Psych 101 class that people who cannot trust others will really not be a success in life, because you have got to be able to trust other people. Just your thoughts.

ES (01:38:34):
Yes. On the other hand, it is healthy, in a way, to know about these things, these incidents, in which our leaders have lied. Because I think it is good to have a healthy skepticism, especially about politicians. The old joke about how you know when a lawyer is lying, his lips are moving. Most politicians are lawyers, so you have got a double chance of lies. I see a lot of disappointment now, after Obama's election, because he ran on the slogan, Change You Can Believe In. A lot of people are bitterly disappointed to find out that he is, after all, a politician, Chicago politician, who has to act within the constraints of our system. As I said before, people have a need to follow, a need for religion, a need feel that they are following someone who can guide them. And of course, one of the popular songs, it was Beatles or John Lennon, I forget, Do not follow leaders.

SM (01:40:27):
Yeah. I was a political science major as an undergrad in history, political science. And one of the things they teach you in political science is, it is healthy for democracy to not trust.

ES (01:40:43):
Yep.

SM (01:40:43):
Because that is the sign that dissent is alive and well. And if you have dissent, that means you have free speech, you have protests, the right, all these things. That is a healthy thing, not a negative thing.

ES (01:40:56):
Yeah. That is why that slogan Question Authority was so powerful.

SM (01:41:03):
Right. When I have asked another question, too, to all the guests, and I have tried defining the boomer generation into words from slogans. There were three, and then there was four, and then there was five. But the three that I mentioned to each person, and then they respond with their own, is Malcolm X's term, By Any Means Necessary, symbolizing the more radical violent aspects of the (19)60s, and early (19)70s, when boomers were young. Then you had Bobby Kennedy's quote, which he took from a writer, which is, "Some men see things as they are, and ask, 'Why?' I see things that never were, and ask, 'Why not?'," which is an activist mentality, a questioning of authority, fight for justice when you see injustice, that kind of thing. Then the more hippie mentality, which was on many of the Peter Max posters of the era, particularly in the early (19)70s. And one of them said, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful," which was a hippie mentality. Then one other person mentioned, We Shall Overcome, which is symbolic of the Civil Rights movement. Others had mentioned Timothy Leary's Tune in, Turn on, Drop out. But are there some slogans that you feel, or do they cover the generation?

ES (01:42:35):
I think they cover it. I do not like Malcolm X's slogan, By Any Means Necessary, because it connotes violence when necessary, and I think violence should be avoided if possible. It is not always possible, but if possible, it should be avoided. I told you I did not care for... Well, I appreciated the power of Timothy Leary's. I did not appreciate the message, because if you are actually following it, dropping out of school, and just dropping out of society.

SM (01:43:21):
When you say that, when you look at the Summer of Love, that is really all about counterculture, that is really not about politics, correct?

ES (01:43:29):
I would say so, yes.

SM (01:43:31):
Yeah.

ES (01:43:31):
In fact, it was a big difference. There was some conflict between the political people and the Flower Power people. The difference even was seen in publications, such as the Berkeley Barb, where my newspaper columns first appeared. Very much interested in politics, whereas there was a publication called The Oracle, which had to do with psychedelic art and music. Yes, there was a difference there.

SM (01:44:22):
You are your books, which I have the list of your four books here, could you at least just, in a couple sentences, describe what each book is about? Dear Doctor Hippocrates, which was Grove Press in (19)69.

ES (01:44:35):
Yes. It was from newspaper columns, or questions and answers, almost all about drugs and sexuality.

SM (01:44:46):
Is that book still available, or you got a-

ES (01:44:49):
It is on online, again, through Amazon.

SM (01:44:52):
Yeah.

ES (01:44:52):
I thought they were being used company.

SM (01:44:56):
Natural Food and Unnatural Acts, Delacorte Press, 1974.

ES (01:45:00):
Yes. That was from newspaper columns and longer articles that I wrote. As I say, I always thought of that as a history of the (19)60s.

SM (01:45:12):
Yeah, that is what I need to get, for sure. The third one was, Jealousy, Taming the Green-Eyed Monster, 1980.

ES (01:45:20):
See, often people would write to me because they were exploring sexuality, freedom of sex, and they would say " I know I cannot own anyone, and I should not own anyone, but why is it that I feel jealous if I see my girlfriend or wife with someone else?" People would very frequently write to me about that, so I thought this be a good book to do, a book about jealousy.

SM (01:45:48):
Well, that is interesting. Mary Todd Lincoln should have read that book. She was suspicious of everybody that came anywhere near Abe.

ES (01:45:58):
Yeah.

SM (01:45:58):
The last one here, the Down to Earth Health Guide, in 1981.

ES (01:46:02):
Yes. I was asked by the publisher of Natural Food and Unnatural Acts to do a general health guide. At that time, there were not health guides for, actually, it started out for college students, and I expanded for others. It is a general health guide. There is a large section in there about drugs and sexuality, but it also includes other health conditions.

SM (01:46:38):
Now I am almost done here. The last part is just where I mentioned some names. So some people or terms, and you just give little brief comments.

ES (01:46:46):
All right.

SM (01:46:47):
If that is okay?

ES (01:46:48):
Sure.

SM (01:46:48):
Sometimes people decide they do not even want that, because the interview's gone a little over. It is a great interview. These are just names, terms, or personalities from the period. Just thoughts. Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda.

ES (01:47:03):
Yeah, Tom Hayden. Tom Hayden, he lived in Berkeley for a time. There was a time when women's groups were coming together, and saying, "We do not need men." They published an anonymous article in the Berkeley Barb about if it had to do with dildos, something like that, and we do not need men. [inaudible] condemned the article. It was anti-women, anti-feminist. I thought he was a true believer, and it was a marriage made in heaven or hell when he married Jane Fonda. I think she is really a dimwit.

SM (01:48:07):
How about John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy?

ES (01:48:13):
Well, John Kennedy, of course, represented a new kind of president. He was young, he was vital. He projected optimism. Robert Kennedy, I had some doubts about, because of his early work with anti-communist activity. When he was killed, a lot of the aspirations of people active in politics died as well.

SM (01:48:59):
How about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey?

ES (01:49:02):
LBJ was an example of how things can get done, how things have to be done, because he was very important in regard to civil rights legislation. And yet, he was an old style politician. Even Humphrey was an example of how things are not done, cannot be done. He had promised a liberal politician, but he was not as effective as LBJ, interestingly enough.

SM (01:49:53):
How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern?

ES (01:49:59):
Well, I met Eugene McCarthy one time. Again, he was someone who was not, of course he was in Congress, but he was not as effective. But he did inspire people to be active in politics, the way they had not before. The same with McGovern. McGovern was interesting. I was at Hunter Thompson's second funeral in Colorado, and McGovern was one of the people who spoke there.

SM (01:50:42):
Wow.

ES (01:50:43):
Yeah.

SM (01:50:47):
How about Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford?

ES (01:50:51):
When I was a student at Berkeley in 1953, Ronald Reagan, I was in the Cal Glee Club. We were asked to sing at a Lions Club meeting in Berkeley, and the featured speaker there was Ronald Reagan. It was the first time that I was aware of his interest in politics, and was surprised to learn of his interest in very conservative politics. I never understood why, do not understand now, why he is so revered by some Republicans. He was the guy who said, "You have seen one redwood, you have seen them all." He also was not the first actor to become elected to national office politics. Was that George Murphy?

SM (01:51:54):
Yes.

ES (01:51:55):
And before him. He unfortunately inspired other actors, get involved in politics, like our present governor.

SM (01:52:08):
Right.

ES (01:52:10):
You asked?

SM (01:52:11):
Gerald Ford.

ES (01:52:12):
Oh, Ford. Ford.

SM (01:52:18):
Ultimate question with him. When he had pardoned Nixon, did he really heal the nation? He wrote a book on it.

ES (01:52:24):
I think that was the intent, as well as maybe paying off some political favors. But I do not think it healed the nation. I think it destroyed his reputation.

SM (01:52:42):
When he ran against Jimmy Carter, I was in San Francisco. They had a big amphitheater there, and they had the big screen with a debate. I will never forget when he said, "They are not communists." I could not believe it. In Eastern Europe.

ES (01:52:56):
Oh yeah-yeah.

SM (01:52:57):
That killed him, that did it.

ES (01:53:01):
He was not very smart, either.

SM (01:53:04):
Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon.

ES (01:53:09):
Oh. Well, Chris, Eisenhower was elected because he was general in the Second World War. I think his greatest contribution was to point out of the military industrial complex.

SM (01:53:25):
Yes.

ES (01:53:26):
Sadly neglected. Every now and then someone will remember it. But very important that he mentioned that, and emphasized that, and that he recognized how important that was. I think that is his greatest contribution, and the importance of that has yet to be realized. Nixon, it was astonishing, to me, when he was elected president. We thought, "Oh, my God, that is the worst thing that could have happened." Some of the most pleasant hours I have ever spent were during the Watergate hearings, then having him resign. Found that very satisfying that finally justice was served, because as he started out as a witch hunter, communist, anti-communist, and built on that.

SM (01:54:35):
How about Spiro Agnew and Jimmy Carter?

ES (01:54:41):
Yeah-yeah. Spiro Agnew. Well, it was amusing, I forget the term that he used. He was talking about the journalist.

SM (01:54:55):
Yeah, hobnobs.

ES (01:54:59):
Finally, he got his due because of corruption.

SM (01:55:03):
Right.

ES (01:55:04):
Jimmy Carter was a weak president. There was some promise. He was interested in, for example, in decriminalizing marijuana, at least through his White House drug advisor. I had some hand in Jimmy Carter's [inaudible], in a roundabout way. I do not know if you remember the White House drug scandal, when his White House drug advisor, Peter Bourne, that is resigned in disgrace?

SM (01:55:52):
Do not remember that.

ES (01:55:53):
He had written a prescription for Quaaludes, under a false name for his secretary, or something.

SM (01:56:03):
Oh, wow.

ES (01:56:07):
When that was revealed, and Jack Anderson revealed a story that he had been pledged not to reveal unless something like this happened. What that was, was that Peter Bourne was at a conference in Washington, it was a normal conference, national organization. He could reform of marijuana law. Peter Bourne was seen by some reporters in a room there, speeding, snorting cocaine with Thompson and some other.

SM (01:56:48):
Oh.

ES (01:56:50):
These reporters, they promised not to reveal this. They told Anderson about it. They promised not to reveal it unless something else happened. Something else happened when Peter Bourne wrote this fake prescription, and that was revealed. Then Jack Anderson revealed the cocaine snorting incident, and that did not help Jimmy Carter.

SM (01:57:28):
How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the Yippies?

ES (01:57:32):
Yeah. Well, I knew both Jerry and Abbie. Abbie, I thought, always had a great sense of humor. But I was there when they were planning the Chicago demonstration. I was at the meeting, and they asked me to provide medical assistance at the Chicago convention meeting.

SM (01:57:58):
Oh, wow.

ES (01:58:01):
When they told me what they planned, I said, "You know, people could get killed if you do that." And Abbie said, "Well, what is a few lives lost there, compared with thousands of lives in Vietnam?" Well, I did not think that one could predict things like that, and I thought it was wrong, and I withdrew from being involved in the Chicago demonstration. But overall, I thought, and there was some brilliance in the Yippie tactics, throwing the money, the dollar bills, and the stock exchange, and some of their other stunts. Jerry Rubin, less so. Especially later, became a stockbroker.

SM (01:58:54):
Right.

ES (01:58:54):
Interested in that. They were killed, hit by a car, and some of us made wry jokes about he was killed because he saw a reporter on the other side of Wilshire Boulevard, right across the street.

SM (01:59:17):
Yeah. Well, I have heard he was killed because he was jaywalking, and he was against the law all the time, so he got killed because he was doing something against the law. Chicago eight. The next one is Chicago eight, which is the trial, the eight people. That was a big thing, with Bobby Seale, and Tom Hayden, and certainly Rennie Davis, Rubin, Hoffman, Dave Dellinger, Lee Weiner, and I am missing one person, but just your thoughts on that? That was a...

ES (01:59:53):
Yeah, that was a travesty. But again, as I just mentioned, I was supposed to have been involved in providing medical-

ES (02:00:03):
...supposed to have been involved in providing medical coverage for a Chicago demonstration. So, I did not have too much sympathy with those people because they were deliberately trying to start a riot. They did. There is no doubt in my mind. I know that that is what they intended to do because they told me.

SM (02:00:24):
How about the women leaders, the Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug the women's movement, because they were at the forefront?

ES (02:00:32):
Yeah. I am afraid that all set setback progress for a couple of generations. They misled women on their relationships with men. It led to a lot of saying, what was it, slogan, women need men like fish need bicycles. I think that still influences a lot of women. I mean, the good part, of course was in pointing out discrepancies in wages and political power. That part was good. It was good and bad.

SM (02:01:23):
How about the Black Panthers? There was seven of them because there is Stokely Carmichael, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Dave Hilliard and then the one that was killed in Chicago. I forget his name. Norman, I think, Fred Norman.

ES (02:01:44):
Well, not all of them were thugs and gangsters, but I think most of them were.

SM (02:01:49):
Yeah. That gets to this question about, Stokely challenged Martin Luther King in person, saying his time had passed. Malcolm X had actually debated Bayard Rustin, telling him that his time had passed, which was nonviolent protest.

ES (02:02:06):
Yeah. That set back relations between blacks and whites and that exists till today.

SM (02:02:13):
Yeah. Well, what are your thoughts on Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr.?

ES (02:02:22):
Well, of course Martin Luther King Jr. was a great orator and peacemaker. Was of course, if not the greatest black leader, one of the greatest. I do not know as much. You asked about Stokely Carmichael?

SM (02:02:45):
Yeah. Stokely was the one challenged Dr. King.

ES (02:02:51):
Yeah.

SM (02:02:52):
He was down south in the early years, the Freedom Summer. So, he was doing good things. It is like what happens with the Weathermen and the SDS. I just saw Bobby Seale speak at the Kent State Conference. He kept saying, "We were never for violence." He kept saying that over and over and over again. Police just looked at the Black Panthers as a threat. They threatened him so much that they decided they had to get guns to protect themselves.

ES (02:03:26):
You know the Black Panthers, when they made a show of appearing at the state capitol in Sacramento, with rifles.

SM (02:03:38):
Right.

ES (02:03:42):
Yes, of course it was outrageous that there was discrimination against blacks, including blatant segregation, as I mentioned when I was younger. But the result of encouraging violence and hatred is what we have today. We do not have as much integration now as we did for a period of time during that Civil Rights era.

SM (02:04:21):
Couple other names here and then we are done, Dr. Benjamin Spock and the Berrigan Brothers.

ES (02:04:31):
Well, Dr. Spock influenced a whole generation. I was fortunate enough to meet him one time. I guess we were speakers on the same stage once in Berkeley. He was very warm, intelligent. He had a lot of good ideas. I think some of his child-raising ideas were misinterpreted, but I thought he was great influence on a whole generation of people and a good influence. Who is the other?

SM (02:05:11):
Phillip and Daniel Berrigan. They were part of the Catonsville 9 where they burned the draft records.

ES (02:05:19):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, they were very influential because they were church leaders who encouraged activism. To the extent that they influenced people of their own faith and other faiths, especially about the Vietnam War, they are very important. They show that it is worth sacrifice to do some things, the sacrifice of being liable to being arrested and jailed. They were not violent.

SM (02:06:08):
Yeah. The SDS, Students for Democratic Society and the Weathermen.

ES (02:06:14):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, there are people who are most influenced by big thing, explosion, boom-boom. The Weathermen, of course they blew themselves up sometimes, but I thought that that was wrong. Thought it was wrong to encourage violence at that time, at that time and for those reasons. I thought there were other means that were useful to ending the war. I mean, after all, that is why they started their group. Using violence to end violence, it's like using racism to end racism.

SM (02:07:13):
How about Muhammad Ali and Jackie Robinson, two of the predominant African American athletes who-

ES (02:07:20):
Well, Muhammad Ali was a very bright man. He was very funny. His decision not to be drafted I think was very important and influenced a lot of people. At the time he did that, he changed his name from Cassius Clay to Muhammad Ali, I mean that was important. I never can remember his though, advocating killing infidels or some of the things that you see now from Islamic extremists. I think he was very influential and a good role model at the time, I mean, even before he avoided the draft way he did because he was such a wonderful athlete. So, very smart, clever and funny. Who was the other?

SM (02:08:38):
The other was Jackie Robinson.

ES (02:08:42):
Yeah. Again, of course he was a pioneer in baseball. He always seemed to comport himself in an ethical manner. Was not like some of the athletes we see today, of all races, drugs and gangsters, acting badly. He always seemed to act in a good way. He was very important. Actually, I was interested in baseball because of the various baseball background in my own family.

SM (02:09:23):
I want to mention a book that I think you ought to go out and read. I am reading it right now. It is a brand-new book on Henry Aaron.

ES (02:09:29):
Yes.

SM (02:09:30):
It is called Henry Aaron. It is written by a person on ESPN. I have got several books. In the first 50 pages, the influence that Jackie Robinson had on Henry Aaron, the young guy from Mobile, Alabama is just unbelievable. Jackie talked about getting an education, not relying on your athletic ability. Raise as much as you, can be educated. Yet Hank was the extreme opposite in his attitudes. It is the best book I have ever written on Henry Aaron. I think as a person who is a psychologist or psychiatrist who works with people, I am learning a lot about human beings from this book. I am respecting Hank Aaron even more now that I am reading about his life. Because he has been kind of a recluse, even though he was high up in the Braves organization, but he was not out there making a name for himself. He did not believe in that. He liked being just, put the product out there. Just a couple more names and then we are done. The Vietnam Veterans Against the War and Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers.

ES (02:10:48):
Well, I saw the Vietnam Veterans Against the War activists. It was in Miami Beach in 1972. They had the Republican Convention there at that time. As you know, I had grown up in Miami Beach. They were amongst the demonstrators there. I was astounded. I saw something I thought I would never, ever see in my life, tear gas, tear gas floating across the visage of a full moon in Miami Beach. I thought I would never see tear gas in Miami Beach. It was during that time.

SM (02:11:34):
Right.

ES (02:11:35):
I think Ron Kovic, that he was there.

SM (02:11:41):
So was Bobby Muller, I think.

ES (02:11:43):
Yeah.

SM (02:11:44):
Yep.

ES (02:11:44):
Yeah. They were very important also in helping to end the Vietnam War and publicizing the atrocities that occurred.

SM (02:11:55):
Mm-hmm. Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers?

ES (02:12:02):
That was also important. He demonstrated how a brave person could help to change things by exposing lies. I think he was important at that time. He surfaces every now and then, now, for other issues, but that was his greatest moment. The associate, what was his name? It started with an R, Russo, I think had some mental problems.

SM (02:12:49):
I cannot end this without at least having a couple conservatives here, Barry Goldwater and William Buckley. Your thoughts on those two? Because they are major figures in the lives of Boomers.

ES (02:13:03):
Yeah. It is funny that Goldberg used to be reviled as this terrible conservative. What did he say? That extremism, forget how he put it, in defense of liberty, is no vice, something like that. He is a very important figure. I think he is regarded in a better light now than he was then, even by liberals.

SM (02:13:32):
William Buckley?

ES (02:13:34):
Buckley, I met him one time. I was recording something in a studio in New York City, taking too much time. He was impatiently waiting. I did meet him then. He was a very interesting person. He was one of the first national figures, particularly conservatives who advocated the liberalization of laws regarding marijuana. That was very important for the people in the marijuana decriminalization movement. I thought he was a brilliant man. Even though often I would disagree with his political views, at least there were reasons and he was very articulate and clever.

SM (02:14:38):
How about My Lai and Tet, how important they were?

ES (02:14:44):
That was very important, very important in finally putting an end to the war. It did confirm the fact that there were atrocities going on. It is still significant today. I think it has certainly had an effect, even in the wars that are being conducted now, that there is more caution being used in the treatment of civilians. I know that there were incidents in Iraq involving civilians, but I am convinced that that more caution is being used now in Afghanistan and Iraq because of My Lai.

SM (02:15:36):
Mm-hmm.

ES (02:15:37):
Yeah.

SM (02:15:43):
Tet?

ES (02:15:46):
Again, it was something else that helped eventually put an end to the Vietnam War. It showed that we were not just up against a group of ill- equipped, low-trained savages. It was very important.

SM (02:16:06):
My last two names are Robert McNamara and John Dean.

ES (02:16:14):
Well, McNamara, finally he admitted he was wrong, I think, but many years too late, 30, 40. He was certainly an architect of that terrible experience in Vietnam. John Dean? Yeah. Well, I think he benefited from end of Nixon because he helped, contributed it to it. But he, I do not know, seemed bigger.

SM (02:16:51):
He lives out in your neck of the woods someplace.

ES (02:17:03):
I guess so. I have not heard his name recently. Every now and then he will turn up in the news.

SM (02:17:09):
The year 1968, what do you think that year meant to America?

ES (02:17:17):
1968. Yeah. We were still in the Vietnam War, a lot of turmoil.

SM (02:17:32):
Two assassinations.

ES (02:17:35):
Pardon?

SM (02:17:37):
Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were killed. That was the year of Tet. That was the year Johnson withdrew to be president, the Chicago convention. Then of course, we had the astronauts going to the moon at the end of the year. That was a positive.

ES (02:17:54):
Mm-hmm. A lot of turmoil, a lot going on, a lot of talk about revolution, but I never believed that that was going to happen.

SM (02:18:12):
The last one here is the television of the (19)50s, the black and white TV. What's your thought of black and white television of the (19)50s? When I think of it, I think of Walt Disney and Howdy Doody and Hopalong Cassidy and all these westerns, where Indians are always the bad guy. Very few people of color, except for Nat King Cole in the mid-(19)50s and Amos 'n' Andy, which was slapstick in the early (19)50s.

ES (02:18:42):
Yep. Milton Berle.

SM (02:18:43):
Yeah. Well, (19)40s and (19)50s a television, how did they shape the Boomers?

ES (02:18:55):
Well, it did because it captures... even then, just black and white television captures one's attention. So, whatever was on was influencing those people, kids at the time. They were pre-conventional values. It was not a lot of innovation or questioning about values, moral or political or artistic or musical during that time. It was a time of convention.

SM (02:19:43):
Symbolize again, do you think the time of symbolic innocence, but at the same time, there was still racism in the south and Martin Luther King and the Montgomery Bus... There were things going on that a lot of white kids did not know about.

ES (02:20:01):
Yep, that is right.

SM (02:20:03):
I am not sure if their parents were doing much to tell them about it either.

ES (02:20:07):
No, it depends on who they were. I mean, of course my parents were different because they had a liberal point of view. So, I knew about all those things.

SM (02:20:21):
Yeah, I did too. Final question and that is, when the lasting legacy of the Boomer generation is written up in the history books after the last Boomer has passed away, ala the Civil War person, what do you think historians and sociologists and writers will be saying about the generation that grew up after World War II? Keeping in mind also that they are only 63 now, so they have still got another 20 years to still have an impact on society in different directions. But your thoughts on what they might be saying about that period, in particular the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s?

ES (02:21:07):
It was a time of great change in the United States in many areas. Any area that you can think of, it was a time of turmoil and change, progress, some regression.

SM (02:21:26):
Is there any questions that... I have asked you a million questions, that I did not ask, that you thought I was going to ask you?

ES (02:21:34):
No, not that I can think of. You have asked a lot of questions.

SM (02:21:37):
Well, I guess that is it. I want to thank you for... My tally, you spent two hours and 20 minutes with me. I really appreciate it. I want to let you know that I am going to need a couple pictures of you. You can mail them to me or send it to me through the computer or whatever, sometime during the summer. I will mail you my mailing address. T. Here is a possibility that I am coming out to San Francisco to visit friends in late August, early September. I have interviewed probably 15 to 18 people from the Bay Area. They all are aware that if I do come out, I may look them up to take their picture too.

ES (02:22:20):
Sure.

SM (02:22:22):
I have Chrissy Keefer, David Lance Goines from the Free Speech Movement over in Berkeley. Well, there is several others. I got a whole list here of people. So again, thank you very much.

ES (02:22:38):
Oh, you are welcome. I had a question. What are your plans for this book?

SM (02:22:44):
I am doing all my interviews. My interviews were supposed to end at the end of May, but now I am extending it through Labor Day. After Labor Day weekend, I am then transcribing them all together over a two-month period, to transcribe them all. Then you will get a copy of your transcript, to peruse through it, edit it and so forth. Then, it will be printed hopefully next year. I got one university press very interested. University presses are interested. I have not done anything with respect to major presses, but I am meeting with two professors at my parents' former college, in actually the next couple weeks, to strategize on the best book company to get for this.

ES (02:23:34):
Okay.

SM (02:23:34):
You are the 156th interview.

ES (02:23:39):
Wow.

SM (02:23:39):
Each interview has gone in depth. The early interviews, with Senator McCarthy and Gaylord Nelson, they were like 90 minutes. Sometimes they were interrupted. They were mainly talking about Vietnam. Originally, the book was going to be about Vietnam Veterans, those activists who were against the war and historians who have written about this period. But now I have interviewed so many, and since I retired early to write the book, I am spending all my time now on this and it is expanded into seven different sections. The sections include a section on activists, a section for historians, a section for Vietnam Veterans, a section for authors. I got a lot of different categories here, a section for entertainers. I am going to interview Buffy St. Marie, but she has been having some deaths in the family and she goes on world tours. So, I have been almost waiting 10 months for that. Actually, tomorrow I am driving down to Virginia, Alexandria to interviewed State Senator Toddy Puller, who was the wife of Louis Puller Jr., who wrote the Pulitzer Prize-winning book, Fortunate Son. He was the inspiration for the book because I took a group of students down to the Vietnam Memorial in 1993, in November, two days before the Women's Memorial was dedicated. He spent two and a half hours with six of our students at a bench in front of the Vietnam Memorial, talking about healing. Then, he committed suicide in May the following year.

ES (02:25:27):
Wow.

SM (02:25:30):
I had mentioned to Lewis that I wanted to write this book. I had thought about this. He wrote in a first edition copy of the book, "You must do what you are planning on doing to educate the public." See, what I want to do, Dr. Schoenfeld, more than any other process here, is I want this book to be used in high schools and colleges and plus be available for the general public. I am very saddened that so few of our students know our history. It really upsets me. I interviewed Mark Rudd from SDS. I saw him at Kent State last week. We talked in depth about it. I interviewed him. He has got a book out called Underground, which I think is great. He admits the violence was a big, big mistake. He admits it, but you notice that Bernadine Dohrn does not.

ES (02:26:27):
Nope.

SM (02:26:29):
I had issues with her. She was at the conference, so I just basically took a picture of her. But at least Mark has the guts to say that what he did was wrong and it ruined the entire SDS.

ES (02:26:41):
Yep.

SM (02:26:43):
I just want to do something that will educate people, from the people who experienced it, that have written about it. So, it is a work in progress, but I am devoting my life to it.

ES (02:26:56):
Yeah. Sounds like.

SM (02:26:58):
Because I care deeply about my generation and I care about the true stories of the people that I am interviewing. Certainly, Paul Krassner, what a great man he is.

ES (02:27:08):
Yep. Yep.

SM (02:27:09):
Rex Weiner, I do not know if you know Rex.

ES (02:27:12):
No.

SM (02:27:13):
Well, Rex Weiner was a writer. Rex said, "You got to get ahold of Paul Krassner." So through Rex, I got ahold of Paul Krassner. And then through Paul, Paul gave me a whole lot of names. I think only two people of all the names that he gave me have not responded. One of them is Carolyn, what is her... Oh, golly.

ES (02:27:38):
Garcia?

SM (02:27:39):
Yes, Carolyn Garcia. She has not responded. So obviously a couple of people said they are surprised by that, but maybe there is something to do with the fact that she was linked up with two people at one time. Maybe it is private. So, I did not pursue that any further. Then the other one was the Whole Earth Catalog person.

ES (02:28:01):
Yeah, Stewart Brand.

SM (02:28:02):
Yeah. He said he is going to pass at this time. He said, good project and everything, but he is going to pass. Everybody else, I have been interviewing. I have got many other interviews. I am going up to take care of my sister's house. I have three interviews, with really three great scholars coming up next week. Maurice Isserman, who wrote a book on the (19)60s, he is a distinguished professor at Hamilton College. I got another professor at Ithaca College and one at Syracuse. So, I am making a lot of different contacts.

ES (02:28:41):
Oh, good. There are some photos of me on my website.

SM (02:28:46):
Okay. What is your website?

ES (02:28:52):
EugeneSchoenfeld.com.

SM (02:28:52):
Okay.

ES (02:28:52):
Okay? There is a lot of biographical information there.

SM (02:28:58):
Great.

ES (02:28:59):
Information about what I am doing now.

SM (02:29:02):
Yeah. I think some of the people, when I did the interviews way back... I started this in (19)96, but I was a full-time employee at a university and I did not have any time to really work very hard on this. Then, I had parents who became ill. So, that kind of shot down two or three years. But now devoting full time to this, I am kind of a walking encyclopedia. I am learning. I have learned a lot from you today. I want to apologize for not getting the right number sent to you, so it is my fault.

ES (02:29:41):
It is all right. All right. Well, give me a call when you are out here, if you want to.

SM (02:29:44):
Oh, yeah, will do. You take care and you have a great day.

ES (02:29:47):
All right. All right. You too. Bye-bye.

SM (02:29:48):
Bye.

(End of Interview)

2010-10-14

Stephen McKiernan

Eugene Schoenfeld, 1935-

149:55

English

Binghamton University Libraries

audio/mp4

Sound

Audio

Psychiatrists; Authors, American--20th century; Schoenfeld, Eugene, 1935--Interviews

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