Interview with Rick Synchef

Synchef, Rick ; McKiernan, Stephen

Rick Synchef is a counterculture collector and historian. He began collecting political paper and ephemera when he was an undergraduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison during the 1960s and 70s. Synchef consistently meets writers and obtains autographs for his large collection of books related to the 1960s.

2010-12-15

In copyright

2018-03-29

McKiernan Interviews

153:58

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Rick Synchef
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 15 December 2010
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(Start of Interview)

SM (00:00:02):
Testing one, two. Okay. The first question I have been asking at least the last 50 people that I have been interviewing is, Rick, can you describe your growing up years, your high school years, where you grew up, maybe some experiences you had at that school prior to going off to the University of Wisconsin to college, and also if you had any early role models before you went off to college. Either parents or people in the news or people that you read about in books.

RS (00:00:42):
I had a fairly normal childhood growing up in the suburbs of Chicago. I want to go off the record. I do not know how much of this you want. I may say more than is necessary, so you may-

SM (00:00:55):
Go right ahead.

RS (00:00:56):
Okay. President of my class in eighth grade, politically interested, writing letters to the editor in high school for our local newspaper. I have to go off for a second. If I make grammatical mistakes, will I be able to correct them at-

SM (00:01:12):
Oh yeah. You will be able to correct them because you will see the transcript.

RS (00:01:17):
Because I would rather just speak and if I say something, I do not want to have to worry about my grammar so much when I speak with you.

SM (00:01:22):
That is okay.

RS (00:01:23):
Okay.

SM (00:01:24):
Yep.

RS (00:01:24):
All right. Always interested in politics. Followed politics. Senior year in high school, actually just graduating after senior year in high school. It was 1968. Since I just graduated, I was not allowed by my parents to go down to the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in August at night. I went with a couple of friends the following day to the Grant Park area. We walked into the Conrad Hilton Hotel, and this tear gas smell was just terrible. Started tearing up right away in the lobby of the hotel. But go back a bit. I was very normal, very athletic, a jock in high school, but was interested in going to a good university and furthering my education, and at that point, I was already fairly sure I was going to become an attorney but did not know. We went to visit a number of colleges and one of them was the University of Wisconsin in Madison. I had already been to some fairly conservative schools like Miami of Ohio, University of Illinois. Then when I got to Madison, we had walked out of the administration building after meeting with a counselor, or somebody regarding college admissions, and they were doing construction across the street and there was plywood everywhere and on one big sheet of plywood, written in spray paint, "LBJ sucks." I had a feeling that is where I wanted to go. Looked and sounded like fun. People on roller skates, dogs with bandanas. That was for me.

SM (00:03:30):
Yeah. Yeah, that was (19)68 and that summer... That was an unbelievable year. Now, I know I have some questions later on here and I am going to ask you about that year and your years in college, but going to... You went down there. What did you think of that whole experience, that Democratic convention with the police and against the young people, and they were all students, but there were a lot of young people there, and of course, there was chaos even inside the Democratic Convention itself?

RS (00:04:04):
A complete overreaction to what I viewed as non-violent political participation in the democratic process. Of course, being born in Chicago and having a family or relatives in Chicago since the 18(19)70s, I was fairly familiar with the Chicago police, but not firsthand. Never had a problem. Parenthetically, I grew up in a suburb 25 miles north of Chicago and only saw "the good parts of Chicago" when I came into the city. But I was shocked seeing people being beaten with clubs, tear gas, National Guard, Army... I do not know the exact terminology, but there was an Army personnel carrier with tripod-mounted machine guns and barbed wire around them. Chicago was transformed into an armed camp. It was quite an eye-opener at 18 years old.

SM (00:05:17):
And you were not allowed to be there at night, but you were there during the day.

RS (00:05:22):
Two friends and I went down there after the event in Grant Park that night, and on Michigan Avenue then, the prior evening. The smell of tear gas was just really awful. It was new to me. First time. Really awful.

SM (00:05:47):
I bet you when you first heard the rock group, Chicago, they had that first album and it was a prologue. The whole world is watching. The whole world is watching. Did you hear any of that?

RS (00:06:02):
I did. Actually, the name on their first album was Chicago Transferred Authority. For obvious reasons, they changed it. They shortened it to Chicago. I did. I knew I was interested in politics before then, but I became even more interested and I ended up majoring in political science.

SM (00:06:25):
Well, as a young person at 18... I know this. I got this question later, but that was the year before you graduated from high school when Martin Luther King was killed in April, and Bobby Kennedy was killed in Los Angeles in June, and this is before your high school graduation, and then you got the Chicago Convention in August.

RS (00:06:47):
Stunning. Absolutely stunning to see people who I looked up to and admired, assassinated. I did not really know what to make of it at that time, being 18 years old, but I knew something was terribly wrong.

SM (00:07:04):
When you went to your high school graduation, that must have been around the third week of June, or somewhere around there?

RS (00:07:10):
A bit earlier, but yes.

SM (00:07:12):
Yeah. Was what was the theme of your high school graduation? Was there talk of what was happening in America in (19)68? The main speaker of the student speakers losing those two great leaders, but the nation seemed torn apart. What was your high school graduation like in terms of what people were saying?

RS (00:07:33):
It appeared that what was going on in the larger world was irrelevant. It was a very standard high school graduation, held at a very nice facility called Virginia Park in Highland Park, Illinois, and it was as if those events had not happened.

SM (00:07:54):
Wow. What was it like? And I am getting to your college years at the University of Wisconsin. I got quite a few questions here. I had a friend that was in graduate school with me from the University of Wisconsin. He was a political science major and he was a PhD candidate, and his name was Alex Sapkowski. Does that name ever ring a bell to you?

RS (00:08:14):
It does not.

SM (00:08:15):
Now, he came from Wisconsin, and he was there at Ohio State in (19)71, but what was it like to be a college student at the University of Wisconsin from (19)68 to (19)72? Just your overall feeling when you look at that four years, what was it like because people reading this are going to be high school and college students that were not alive then.

RS (00:08:39):
Initially, I was a "straight person", meaning I went to see a Janice Joplin concert in 1969 wearing a coat and tie. I thought that is what you did when you went to a concert. Dressed nicely for class and took my studies very seriously.

SM (00:09:03):
Right. Yeah. During those four years, what kinds of protests did you see and what were the issues that they were protesting?

RS (00:09:14):
There were a number of issues. Everything from civil rights to the war, of course, and maybe I should say the Vietnam War for young people. The Vietnam War. The environmental movement was just starting. The first birthday was held in April 1970, and the University of Wisconsin was prominently involved in the Senator Gaylord Nelson was the, I believe, first person who proposed having an birthday.

SM (00:09:46):
Yeah. And I interviewed him for my book.

RS (00:09:49):
I saw that.

SM (00:09:51):
Yeah.

RS (00:09:51):
I saw that. So there was a lot of what you could call a consciousness-raising in so many different areas from migrant workers to civil rights to, of course, the war and the... To borrow one expression, the military industrial complex, but medicine was a very progressive, politically aware, and politically savvy place.

SM (00:10:29):
Obviously, were they... Were a lot of the students against ROTC on campus too? Blocking military recruiters. Was that...

RS (00:10:38):
In fact, freshman year in college, ROTC orientation was compulsory as a class-

SM (00:10:46):
Oh my gosh.

RS (00:10:48):
... For incoming freshman. And that was changed; I believe a year or two after I became a student. Near the ROTC building... I do not know if you want to print this, it was regularly burned down during the spring. It was an annual riot.

SM (00:11:08):
Oh, you mean... Oh, they burned it down there too?

RS (00:11:13):
Yes.

SM (00:11:14):
Well, how many times was it burned down?

RS (00:11:16):
I believe at least once annually.

SM (00:11:19):
Oh my goodness. Kent State was only that one time. Wow. That was crazy. And of course, did they have to call in the National Guard at your campus?

RS (00:11:32):
National Guard was on campus regularly. Bayonets, tear gas... There was a Black student strike in the winter of 1969, and that was really the first large demonstration that I saw on campus. And subsequent to that, there were of course, many, many demonstrations primarily having to do with Vietnam War.

SM (00:12:08):
At that time, at the University of Wisconsin, what was the relationship between the students? Now, I am not sure, again, what percentage of your students were involved in anti-war activity or activism, but what was the relationship between a lot of the students and the administration and the faculty?

RS (00:12:33):
The relationship between the students and the administration was adversarial. They viewed students as a... This might be too strong. I do not want to... I was going to say necessary evil. I do not want to say. Something necessary, but I believe the [inaudible] were doing students a favor to let them attend the university, and that they were not sufficiently grateful for their opportunity. Politically, the faculty was by and large, very progressive, and there were a number of excellent professors who taught... Give me a... Who used materials such as by Howard Zen and other liberal political scientists. There were George Moscone and Harvey Goldberg come to mind as two professors who were teaching political science in a... I mean, I am searching for a word. I do not want to say alternative way, but using-using materials that were not customary.

SM (00:13:57):
Yeah. Yeah. Were the faculty more kind of partners with the students as opposed to... Were faculty mostly against the administration too?

RS (00:14:10):
I suppose it would depend on the department.

SM (00:14:14):
Right.

RS (00:14:16):
I do not want to make generalizations. This was a long time ago.

SM (00:14:21):
Right.

RS (00:14:21):
But I believe in the hard sciences, they were more conservative rather than in the liberal arts areas, they were, I believe, much more progressive.

SM (00:14:34):
Yeah, I know that it is hard to generalize, even when you talk about 74 million boomers. You can only... Depending on who you talk to, only about 5 percent to 10 percent were ever involved in any kind of activism during that area in the entire nation.

RS (00:14:52):
Well, I assure you, at the University of Wisconsin, it were much more demonstrations. Brought out on occasion 10,000, 20,000 people.

SM (00:15:00):
Wow.

RS (00:15:01):
And just very, very [inaudible].

SM (00:15:09):
So, the relationship between... How was the relationship between students and the community of Madison and the Police Department of Madison during those four years?

RS (00:15:19):
Well, I believe it was a... I am hearing feedback.

SM (00:15:27):
I do not. I am fine on my end. Are you having feedback?

RS (00:15:34):
I am. It just started too.

SM (00:15:37):
Okay. Are you okay now or...

RS (00:15:40):
Let me see if I hear it. That is better.

SM (00:15:42):
Okay.

RS (00:15:42):
That is better. Could you restate the question?

SM (00:15:47):
Yeah. Well, the question was the relationship between the students and the community of Madison, the citizens of Madison, and-

RS (00:15:54):
I believe it was more like a traditional town versus gown atmosphere. Police, of course, being blue collar and from, by and large, parts of the city of Madison, which were not located near the campus, really disliked many of the students intensely. They viewed them as spoiled and... Let me think. Overprivileged people who were fortunate even to be there, and that they were in some ways desecrating a place where many of them had grown up. I can refer you to a movie called The War At Home, which is excellent.

SM (00:16:45):
I have it.

RS (00:16:46):
You have it?

SM (00:16:46):
Yes.

RS (00:16:46):
Okay.

SM (00:16:49):
Yeah. This is something too important, because I noticed this on my campus, but I wanted to hear from you. There seemed.... What was the relationship in the late (19)60s and early seventies between White students and African American students? There seemed to be a split.

RS (00:17:07):
In Madison, I think by... Or I should not say Madison. I said at the university, by and large, I think it was very good.

SM (00:17:14):
Because at around (19)69, (19)70, you noticed at Kent State, there were no students of color at that protest. They were told to basically not be seen by the African-American leaders of the campus, and actually the student government president was African-American, but what happened is during the Black Power there was a split where most of the white students continued protesting the Vietnam War and African American students started fighting for rights for African Americans, and so there was a split. Did you see that on your campus?

RS (00:17:52):
I really did not. I would say that they were not mutually exclusive, that many of the activities involved both. There was a large overlap.

SM (00:18:04):
Yeah. It got so bad at Ohio State University that in (19)71 and (19)72, in the Ohio Union, African American students had their own separate dances and White students had their dances in another part of the building, so there was some tension there.

RS (00:18:22):
I cannot recall something like that happening. I am not saying that it did not. But I vividly recall events such as what happened on the night of the massacre at Kent State with police charging groups of students, police helicopters hovering overhead, massive amount of tear gas. They used so much tear gas on the campus that they eventually ran out and switched to pepper gas, which hurt you more.

SM (00:18:53):
Oh my, God. Did you guys have graduation that year, or did they close the school?

RS (00:18:58):
No, everything happened, but the classes after Kent State were... I should not say the word canceled. Were switched to using a pass/fail system for the semester. But the police would throw tear gas everywhere students congregated, whether it was in the student union, the library... I should not say the library. Let me strike that. I cannot promise that. In the student union, fraternity houses, places of worship, anywhere that students congregated to get away from them. No place was safe.

SM (00:19:37):
Who were some of the speakers that you saw that came to your campus during the year (19)68 to (19)72? I do not know if you went to see these speakers. Could be national leaders or activists; did you go to see speakers?

RS (00:19:58):
I have to tell you. In all honesty, I do not remember. I am sure I did, but I cannot recall specific people. I just know that many of them came to campus, including people during Chicago Southern Conspiracy trial. But yes, many, many people came to campus. I believe Todd Gitlin, who had former president of SDS, Tom Hayden, I believe Paul Krassner came. Many, many people came to the campus, but frankly, I was not as interested in the leaders as I was learning about the issues.

SM (00:20:39):
Very good. What was the relationship between the protestors on campus at Wisconsin and members of fraternities and sororities and some of the student athletes and the ROTC students?

RS (00:20:56):
Initially, it seemed like an adversarial relationship, but what the police actions and the administration's conduct resulted in was radicalizing formerly conservative people like fraternity members. When the police come in and throw tear gas in your fraternity, you suddenly do not like them quite much.

SM (00:21:19):
Oh my, God. Yeah.

RS (00:21:22):
So, they had a reverse effect from what they intended in that they caused people to question authority and say that things did not work as they had assumed that they were.

SM (00:21:42):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It is interesting because that is what the free speech movement was all about. A lot of the people in Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65, did not agree with the new left and their politics, but when they were not allowed to hand out literature, that was an attack on all students and they all kind of united.

RS (00:22:04):
I think this was a longstanding policy by the University of California to keep the campus "pure".

SM (00:22:11):
Yes.

RS (00:22:12):
And refrain from any political activity on campus, which included the setting up of card tables with literature on them, which resulted in the free speech movement in the fall of (19)64.

SM (00:22:32):
And it is interesting too, that what was going on in American in the fifties, were there fear of communists and that kind of led to some of the mentality of college administrations and so forth. Did you see the evolution of other movements on your campus at that time? Because you were on a university campus in (19)68 to (19)72 when just about all the movements came to fruition, particularly in the early seventies, because that is when the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Native American movement, and even the Black Power and a lot of the Black Panthers, kind of all evolved around that timeframe as kind of an offshoot of the anti-war movement and civil rights movements. Did you see those evolving on your campus?

RS (00:23:19):
I knew they were present, including the environmental movement that I previously mentioned, but the primary issue for me was the Vietnam War, and for many, I believe. People my age were being sent over there to die for what many of us thought was no logical reason until they already left. I believe that the goals were not really clear enough to make the... Let me rephrase that. I believe that young people did not see that the end justified the means.

SM (00:24:08):
And what were some of your classes like? Did you have professors that said, "Today, I am not going to teach my class. We are going to talk about what is going on in the world?" There seemed to be some of that. Did you have that in any of your classes?

RS (00:24:21):
Yes, I did. It was easy to do when you smelled tear gas [inaudible] through the windows of the classroom.

SM (00:24:27):
Yeah. What were some of those conversations? You are sitting in a room with all your fellow students. What were some of the thoughts that were going through some of those young people's minds?

RS (00:24:40):
Well, I think most of the people were as naive as I was when we started. It was quite an eye-opener. Of course, there were a few students from Europe that did not see this as anything unusual who thought socialism was... God, let me rephrase. That is awful. I am making generalizations. But we discussed socialism and other more leftist ideas as if they were completely normal and nothing to be afraid of. But again, for myself and for many people being suburbanized. This was quite an eye-opener.

SM (00:25:23):
Oh, yeah. So in the... And were there any teach-ins at your school?

RS (00:25:30):
I remember one for the environment. I remember for the Vietnam War. I also remember reading lists of people who had died that week. The area around the university library became probably the main meeting area for student demonstrations. And at times there were many thousands of people there.

SM (00:26:01):
Now, these demonstrations, were they approved or did they just kind of happened?

RS (00:26:07):
They were spontaneous in many times, and often people would hand out pieces of paper saying, "Meeting 8:00 PM, library mall," or something like that, to make it an event that was passed. Information was passed on from person to person without a great deal of publicity, presumably to keep it [inaudible] from the authorities.

SM (00:26:36):
So a lot of times when it happened, the police were at the sides then watching the students.

RS (00:26:42):
Well, I do not know for sure, but I have a feeling that the police were in with the students as well.

SM (00:26:48):
You are probably right because infiltration was very big in those days, particularly in groups like SDS. We all know about the book that came out in the 19(19)80s called Rads.

RS (00:27:05):
Yes.

SM (00:27:05):
Which is where the lab was blown up at the University of Wisconsin and one student died.

RS (00:27:10):
[inaudible].

SM (00:27:13):
Yeah. I do not... Could you give a little more information on the... I think that happened when you were there.

RS (00:27:19):
Well, actually it happened while I was a student, but it happened during the summer and I was not on campus when it happened.

SM (00:27:28):
Well, what was it all... Could you tell a little bit more about it? Because people have not read the book of Rads or... What was it? Who did it? Did anybody pay the price for the bombing of it? And who was the young man who died and what was the reaction of the campus, particularly when school started in the fall?

RS (00:27:47):
It happened at, I believe, 3:45 in the morning and was purposely designed so not to hurt anyone, and it was assumed that nobody would be in the Army Research Center at 3:45 in the morning. Four people were involved; three of which were punished, and one has never been caught.

SM (00:28:15):
Were they students?

RS (00:28:17):
I believe that... I should not answer that. I cannot answer that question. I believe to a [inaudible] for certain. I do not remember. But there were two brothers, Dwight and Carl Armstrong, and two other people named David Fine and Leo Bert. I believe Leo Burt has never been caught.

SM (00:28:40):
And the other three, did they serve time in jail or...

RS (00:28:45):
I know Carl Armstrong did. I believe his brother Dwight did, and I believe David Fine did as well, but I cannot be for sure about him.

SM (00:28:59):
Now. What was-

RS (00:29:00):
I know for certain Carl Armstrong.

SM (00:29:02):
What summer were-

RS (00:29:02):
Actually, let me interrupt you for one sec. They were actually from Madison, the brothers, which was quite a shock to the Madison community that some of their own could be involved in this. Many, many times activities were blamed on out-of-state agitators. Yet they were from the same town.

SM (00:29:31):
And they were students too then, correct? At Wisconsin? You are not sure.

RS (00:29:36):
I am not sure. They were older than me. I believe they may have been students before I got there.

SM (00:29:43):
When you came back in the fall, was that the number one topic of discussion?

RS (00:29:47):
It was. It was really stunning to see this huge building reduced... Well, damaged. I should not say reduced. Damaged substantially. And it was quite an eye-opener, again, for young people who had not seen anything like that before.

SM (00:30:10):
You went on to law school. Now, you mentioned early on in the interview that you kind of knew in high school you wanted to be a lawyer. Why?

RS (00:30:22):
I wanted to help people. Law is very complex. I thought I could get involved and make changes in society and in an individual's life in a meaningful way.

SM (00:30:42):
And so probably your undergraduate degree...

RS (00:30:47):
Political science.

SM (00:30:48):
Yeah. Political science was a good preparation for that.

RS (00:30:51):
It was. It was. Again, I got an excellent education at the University of Huntington.

SM (00:30:57):
That is a great school.

RS (00:31:02):
It was a fine school, and I also got a street education.

SM (00:31:08):
Did you join organizations?

RS (00:31:10):
Excuse me. Let me interrupt you for-

SM (00:31:11):
Yep.

RS (00:31:11):
For some of the students, parents gave them gas masks before they departed for campus for fall.

SM (00:31:19):
Oh my, God.

RS (00:31:19):
Do not believe that happens today. Parent giving their sons and daughters gas masks for the upcoming year at school.

SM (00:31:31):
I wonder how many parents said, "Do not get involved in any protests."

RS (00:31:36):
Well, not only do not get involved, but do not sign anything. Many of the parents will remember the Red Scare. Do not join any groups. Do not sign any petitions. Quite fearful of repercussions for political activity.

SM (00:31:54):
Wow. So your plan was to become a lawyer. What did you specialize in law?

RS (00:32:05):
I did what was called tort work involving personal injury worker's compensation, and occasional medical malpractice. But one thing I am very proud of is representing over 600 Vietnam veterans for free on the Agent Orange class action litigation.

SM (00:32:25):
Yeah. I am going to go... I have a question on that. I am going to go... That was later in my interview, but that is very important. I have got a question here regarding this. You represented vets linked to Agent Orange. How did that happen?

RS (00:32:40):
Can you be a little more specific?

SM (00:32:44):
Yeah. Did one vet come to you and say, "We need help for the 600," or...

RS (00:32:53):
That is exactly what happened. One vet came to my office and said he had been in Vietnam and had a terrible, terrible rash on his skin, and he did not know what it was from. I said... That is bad grammar. What had caused it? I started dealing with a nurse at the Veteran Administration Hospital on the west side of Chicago where they had been seeing a number of people for these unexplained problems. Her name was Maude DeVictor, and when she saw that I was involved and not interested in obtaining anything for my services, but trying to help, she started referring a few clients to me. And I was one of the first 50 people in the law... I should say, attorneys in the country involved.

SM (00:33:50):
Wow. It is a big issue. Still is.

RS (00:33:53):
Well, this resulted in me receiving a death threat and having my telephone tapped.

SM (00:34:00):
Really?

RS (00:34:01):
Yes.

SM (00:34:03):
That is after you were working very hard on behalf of the 600?

RS (00:34:07):
Yes. I mean, I worked in conjunction with attorneys both locally in Chicago and across the nation, meeting with epidemiologists and other experts in diseases regarding the cause. And one of the attorneys I worked with in Chicago was a very establishment lawyer, but he was so convinced that his phone was being tapped, that he was tape-recording all of his own conversations.

SM (00:34:40):
And you think you were being tapped?

RS (00:34:44):
I heard the clicks on my line repeatedly.

SM (00:34:49):
Who do you think was tapping you?

RS (00:34:52):
I do not want to speculate.

SM (00:34:54):
Okay. Who would be against helping veterans though? Unless it is the government. Anyways.

RS (00:35:02):
Well, the chemical company-

SM (00:35:03):
... Anyways.

RS (00:35:03):
Well, the chemical companies were making a great deal of money from this product.

SM (00:35:06):
Right.

RS (00:35:09):
The lawsuit included Dow Monsanto, Diamond Shamrock and a number of other chemical companies in addition to the US government.

SM (00:35:22):
What was the final result of the lawsuit?

RS (00:35:28):
In 1984, the class action case was settled. I would have to check, but I believe the settlement result was $180 million. I believe there were changes subsequently, but the time I was involved, the maximum they were paying was approximately $14,000 to the survivor of someone who had died as a result of the Agent Orange exposure due to cancer, leukemia or other problems. People with lesser problems got less.

SM (00:36:07):
So in the end it was more than just the 600. It was people all over-

RS (00:36:15):
We represented approximately a little over 600, but there were many, many thousands of claims.

SM (00:36:22):
And that is still an issue today.

RS (00:36:26):
I know it is. I know it is.

SM (00:36:26):
I am met a vet down on Veterans Day at The Wall who was having a hard time. He has got Agent Orange issues and having a hard time getting his medical coverage and so forth. For those young people who will be reading this and certainly students that were not alive during the Vietnam War, can you explain what Agent Orange is and what it did in Vietnam?

RS (00:36:54):
It is a chemical defoliant. The purpose of spraying Agent Orange was to kill all the vegetation, so that the enemy could not hide. It was sprayed in areas along the rivers, basically the forest to just kill everything, to prevent the North Vietnamese from having cover, and it caused horrible defects, birth defects, miscarriages, and apparently is one of the most toxic. Agent Orange was contaminated during its manufacture by a... I have to start again. I am not phrasing this right. The production of Agent Orange caused a byproduct called dioxin. Dioxin is one of the most toxic substances known to man. A miniscule amount can cause terrible problems and the subsequent discovery during the case, showed that the government had known about it since 1957, that it caused terrible problems.

SM (00:38:15):
And so these Vietnam vets were coming back after serving their nation, and they were having a hard time getting medical coverage for this issue.

RS (00:38:25):
Yes.

SM (00:38:26):
And it kept going year after year after year. I know politicians got involved in it. In fact, I just talked to Bob Edgar last week, the former congressman. He went back to Vietnam, I think it was about a month ago, and Agent Orange is still an issue in Vietnam because so many of the population was affected by it.

RS (00:38:48):
Well, also, in addition to spraying it, what would happen is it would accumulate in ponds, and people would drink water from these ponds in incredibly high concentrations of the chemical.

SM (00:39:02):
Yeah, it is terrible. What did that say about... Vietnam Vets obviously are not the anti-war protestors. Some came back, became veterans against the war, John Kerry and that group, Bobby Muller. But what did that say to those veterans who came back to America after serving their nation? What do you think the lesson that comes out of this?

RS (00:39:31):
Some of them that I represent, were very-very bitter. Basically, many of them considered themselves chemical cannon fodder. And that they were knowingly exposed to something that eventually caused many of them to die.

SM (00:39:56):
Wow. Yeah, that is a major issue, and that is certainly an issue that was known by anyone alive at that time. I do not know whether you were for or against the war or anything in between, Agent Orange was in the news constantly. When you were at Northwestern, you had mentioned something just on your email to me. You said when you went there to law school, you say it could not have been more different on that campus than it was at Madison. Explain the difference between Northwestern Law School and clinical science undergrad at Wisconsin?

RS (00:40:41):
I was barely familiar with Northwestern Law School because my father went to law school there. In fact, when I was a little kid, I was dressed up wearing a tee-shirt that said Northwestern Law when I was a toddler. I knew about the place. I got a very good legal education, very conservative corporate oriented school. The old saying when I was there was that, you go to the University of Chicago to become a judge... Excuse me, I should say law school, University of Chicago Law School to become a judge. And they go to the Northwestern Law School to become a corporation council. So again, I got a very good legal education, but politics were not relevant to learning the law and their view. In fact, my corporation's professor... I do not know if I should give his name because I do not want to-

SM (00:41:45):
No, you do not need to do that.

RS (00:41:47):
But said in a discussion of corporate law, morality and ethics were irrelevant.

SM (00:41:57):
Well, I think Berkeley students in (19)64, (19)65 realize that.

RS (00:42:07):
We were there to learn the law, and in that way, it was an old school Socratic method type of education. If you are familiar with the movie, The Paper Chase.

SM (00:42:18):
Yes, I am.

RS (00:42:21):
It was very much like that.

SM (00:42:23):
Wow. I forget the lawyer that was in that, the older actor. Oh, he was good.

RS (00:42:28):
Named...

SM (00:42:30):
I see him now.

RS (00:42:32):
John Houseman.

SM (00:42:33):
Yeah. What a great professor. And I think, was it Ryan O'Neill?

RS (00:42:36):
Timothy Bottoms.

SM (00:42:38):
Oh, that is right. Timothy Bottoms. You got it.

RS (00:42:41):
And it was based on a corporation... Let me see, corporation's law professor at Harvard.

SM (00:42:52):
Yeah. I had here because you were at such an activist university as an undergrad and you went to Northwestern. I am sure there probably was some activism there for the undergrads, but the question I was... Basically was three things here. Bear in mind as I mention these, was the difference when you made that statement because of the campus and the type of students that were there. Number two, the things were beginning to wind down, and the anti-war movement, particularly around that time of (19)72, (19)73, (19)74 and people were tired of the acrimony. And third, that law school, the people were career oriented. They wanted to get a good job, money and a career, and they were not into social issues anymore, because they were going for a career. Did all those play a part in the differences of the two campuses?

RS (00:43:47):
To say that they were career oriented would be an understatement. Many people went to the law school, and again, I cannot speak for everyone because I did not speak to everyone in my class. By and large, many students knew that once they graduated, after having done well in law school, they were looking for jobs at the large corporate oriented law firms in Chicago and elsewhere.

SM (00:44:24):
Were there-

RS (00:44:24):
Which paid very well.

SM (00:44:26):
Were there many lawyers that said, I am going to go back and work around a university to help students, and not make that much money?

RS (00:44:34):
Not that I recall.

SM (00:44:36):
I know that was a big thing at that time for law students. They can go back and represent college students. Did you sense that when you were at Northwestern, that things were winding down in the anti-war movement?

RS (00:44:52):
Well, they were. The war was winding down. We had missed the draft. Miss is the wrong word, had not been drafted and self-interest seemed like it was the rule of the day.

SM (00:45:15):
In those years, (19)75 to (19)81, you practiced law, that was in Chicago, correct?

RS (00:45:24):
Yes.

SM (00:45:24):
Now, this is a fulfillment question. Did you feel more fulfilled during those six years as a lawyer, or were you more fulfilled as a college student during your four years at the University of Wisconsin?

RS (00:45:38):
No, I would call college more a formative experience than a fulfilling experience. It was sort of like making a piece of sculpture where at first you have to put the body and the arms on, before you can make the fingernails look the way they are supposed to.

SM (00:45:56):
Right.

RS (00:46:00):
It was more formative. I was oriented toward being an attorney, but I was not quite sure what area of law I wanted to do. I just knew that it was a vehicle for helping people who did not know the law, understand it and wind their way through the system with as little trouble as possible.

SM (00:46:29):
Yeah. I put down here because I concentrate a little bit. We are going to get into memorabilia in a few minutes, but I think your college years are fascinating and that your career's fascinating, just from what you have given on your brief email.

RS (00:46:47):
Off the record, you were asking me to pull up memories that are 40 years old. My short-term memories is not what it used-used to be, but neither is the rest of me.

SM (00:46:55):
Yeah, but I can tell from the way you are responding though, that these memories are important to you.

RS (00:47:03):
They were exciting... I should not say. They were incredibly exciting, interesting, vibrant times.

SM (00:47:10):
Yes.

RS (00:47:11):
You woke up in the morning never knowing what that day would bring. There was an excitement and electricity in the air, that I just do not see happening anymore.

SM (00:47:23):
Yeah.

RS (00:47:23):
It was an incredible time to be alive.

SM (00:47:28):
Yeah. I can remember taking buses from school. Just getting on a Greyhound bus and if you were a young person, you had this... Not that you were arrogant, but you felt like what a world we were living in. It was just a feeling, there were some bad things happening in the world, but there seemed to be some sort of unity between the youth at that time.

RS (00:47:50):
Well, you are absolutely right. There were so many idealistic, risk taking young people, who believed that anything was possible.

SM (00:48:02):
Right.

RS (00:48:04):
They sought to transform society with emotional and physical commitment, and boundless, often playful energy. Our distrust of the establishment, also known as the Man, was prevalent. Also with varying degrees of success, young people tried to manifest their own divinity. Consciousness raising was taken seriously as a truth seeking path towards personal enlightenment and positive social change.

SM (00:48:38):
Did you read any of those books of that era when you were a college student? Some of the best books ever came out in that-

RS (00:48:47):
[inaudible] Carlos Castañeda?

SM (00:48:48):
Yeah.

RS (00:48:49):
Of course.

SM (00:48:51):
Yeah. Of course, I know that Saul Alinsky was a big person because I think he is out of Chicago.

RS (00:48:57):
He was-

SM (00:48:59):
Was it Rules for Radicals?

RS (00:49:01):
He was a community organizer. I actually have a signed copy, first edition of his book, Rules for Radicals.

SM (00:49:08):
Keep it, it is valuable and pass it on.

RS (00:49:12):
I intend to.

SM (00:49:13):
It is an unbelievable thing because I know Hillary Clinton was influenced by him when she was a student. And then of course the other books were... I do not know if you read The Greening of America by Charles Reich?

RS (00:49:28):
I have a copy, which I had signed by him about 10 years ago.

SM (00:49:33):
Wow. I am trying to interview him. In February he is coming back to teach a course at Yale Law School. He is kind of hibernated, he lives in San Francisco.

RS (00:49:40):
Yes.

SM (00:49:43):
But I do not even know how to get ahold of-

RS (00:49:43):
He lives in Mill Valley. I am not certain. He may have... I should not say that. I do not know. He is in the Bay Area.

SM (00:49:51):
Yeah.

RS (00:49:52):
If I may, one of the most significant developments of the 1960, was really greatly increased involvement of young people in the political process. People got involved. They were passionate. If you have ever seen any video or film from the protests, people put their bodies on the line.

SM (00:50:21):
Right.

RS (00:50:22):
And many were beaten. They risked being tear gassed for what they believed. I do not really see that happening today. It is as if young... To me, and perhaps it is aging that says this, but there is not the passion. They are almost defeated before they begin, many of them. It seems like an end to, why fight the system we cannot win. Well, that is self-defeating. You will never know if you can win or not if you do not step the ring.

SM (00:50:57):
That is what Teddy Roosevelt said, " Got to get into the arena of life."

RS (00:51:06):
I did not know. Truly, I did not know, but many of them seem defeated and they have been... As George Carlin said, many of them been bought off by gizmo's and gadgets.

SM (00:51:18):
And of course George knew that those... What is it? The eight words he could not say or something like that...

RS (00:51:23):
Seven.

SM (00:51:25):
Seven. He said them anyways.

RS (00:51:28):
He did them at the Milwaukee Summerfest concert, I believe 1970, he was arrested for them.

SM (00:51:33):
Wow.

RS (00:51:34):
But it was a really exciting, electric time to be alive. There were so many changes taking place in society. If you want, I can give you a few obvious ones.

SM (00:51:49):
Yeah, go ahead.

RS (00:51:51):
I mean like a revolution in fashion, highlighted bright colors and tie-dyed clothes, long hair on men, replaced short cropped haircuts. New developments in graphic art, including the use of nonlinear writing and flowing colors, marked a pretty stark departure from the past. That was most evident in posters produced to promote rock events, but not exclusive. Television seemed like a fairly conservative medium and a skewed controversy. They started showing rock and roll performers and highlighting drama with frank and sometimes explicit adult themes. The sudden and prolific emergence of underground newspapers and comics.

SM (00:52:47):
Yes.

RS (00:52:47):
Disseminate liberal ideas and breakthroughs in art to an interested, sympathetic audience, that could be counted in millions. Again, this is long before email, cell phones, the widespread use of fax machines. I do not know if you want to write this, but I have many leaflets, these were vehicles of communication. People would hand out handbills.

SM (00:53:18):
Right.

RS (00:53:21):
And actually little notes, demonstration 8:00 PM, Library Mall, which I know I said, but this is how people communicated often. Underground newspapers and underground comics as well, you can include them. There has always been a bohemian or nonconformist or countercultural movement in America, which is parallel of mainstream society, consisting of free thinkers who were dissatisfied with conventional values, and people who sought emotional and spiritual satisfaction in ways other than the acquisition of wealth and power. And conformity, for do not sake, was seen as a compensation for a lack of ability, or I will say courage, for yourself.

SM (00:54:15):
Yeah. That is beautiful.

RS (00:54:19):
I mean, this is how I feel, and it was a rebellion against conformity, but it became more open as opposed to people in the (19)50s. The Beats who I admire very much, were really well mocked and I want to say pigeonholed. Could say the water overflowed the cup and it was impossible for the establishment to keep it inside.

SM (00:54:48):
Hold on a second. [inaudible].

RS (00:54:57):
A year or two ago, when he received a lifetime achievement award for his writing, was held in the [inaudible] public library.

SM (00:55:03):
Is that the same ceremony that Paul was involved in?

RS (00:55:06):
No, that was in Oakland. It was the Pen. P-E-N.

SM (00:55:10):
Okay.

RS (00:55:11):
Oakland.

SM (00:55:12):
Yep.

RS (00:55:17):
But I believe this might have been Pen San Francisco, but I would go to every reading I could have, and he has not done one in a long, long time.

SM (00:55:24):
Yeah. Someone said his health is not very good.

RS (00:55:28):
It is unfortunate to hear, because he was a really active guy. He would swim at the YMCA regularly, drive his bike when he was in his (19)70s, through traffic in San Francisco.

SM (00:55:40):
Yeah, I got some of his books. I got another question here. Are you finished with that information or...

RS (00:55:54):
But I am here for whatever you want to...

SM (00:55:56):
Yeah. This period, (19)68 to (19)72, you already talked about your senior year when you graduated. And you talked about the 1968 in Chicago and MLK, but some other major events that took place during those four years away from your college, was Woodstock in (19)69 and certainly... I got a list of them here. I will just list these and then you can comment on any of them as a whole. You had the Kent State, Jackson State of 1970. You had the big protest in Washington in 1969, known as the Moratorium. In 1969, you had the first openly major protest, Stonewall for gay and lesbian people in New York City. Then you had Altamont that some people say was really the end of the (19)60s, because you had Woodstock, then you had Altamont. Then you had Attica at the prisons. You had the American Indian Movement from (19)67 to (19)71, that began with Alcatraz and ended at Wounded Knee. You had the Black Panther trials, particularly the one in Yale or in New Haven. Earth Day in 1970. You had the Angela Davis situation with George Jackson over at San Quentin. [inaudible]. Then you had the SDS going to the Weathermen. Then you had Johnson withdrawing from the race in (19)68, and then you had Agnew-

RS (00:57:31):
That was quite a stunner. That was quite a stunner.

SM (00:57:32):
And then you had Agnew going all over these campuses, yelling about hobnobs and all the other things, attacking young people and-

RS (00:57:45):
[inaudible].

SM (00:57:45):
Yeah. And then of course Nixon was elected in (19)68 and (19)72, and then we had The Pentagon papers with Ellsberg, and then the evolution of Vietnam Veterans Against the War in (19)71. Then of course you had the hippies and the Yippies and so forth. All these things happened during that (19)68 to (19)72 period.

RS (00:58:02):
Yes.

SM (00:58:04):
You were obviously aware of all of them. Any of these stand out, that...

RS (00:58:10):
Well, again, being in Madison, Madison was isolated in the sense that it was not anywhere near another metropolitan area. The closest one was Milwaukee, which is approximately 90 miles away. And while being a wonderful place, we did not really interact much... How should we say? People came to campus, spoke or whatever, and left. It was not as if they were there permanently, as if you were in a large city like New York or Chicago. I was aware of what was going on through reading the newspaper, television and radio, but I did not go to any of those specific events you mentioned.


SM (00:59:01):
Were students... Did you see the-

RS (00:59:02):
These were rock festivals in the Madison area and Milwaukee.

SM (00:59:13):
Yeah. Did you see on the campus though, the evolution of the Black Panthers, from the nonviolent protest ala Dr. King, and then you saw the SDS, and then they went to become the Weatherman. What were your thoughts on those? This was a big transition.

RS (00:59:35):
It was. I had mixed emotions. On the one hand, I felt frustrated that no matter what we did, did not seem to make any difference. But on the other hand, I felt that some of the other activities such as the bombings, could possibly be counterproductive and not change the minds of the people whose minds we wanted to change.

SM (01:00:02):
The contrast, again, when you see Altamont, then you compare it to Woodstock. What seemed to be (19)69, and then Altamont was (19)70, was the exact opposite. Then you had the-

RS (01:00:19):
There were too many factors involved with that to make a real comparison. Woodstock sort of happened.

SM (01:00:26):
Right.

RS (01:00:28):
And it is wonderful that it did. Altamont seemed like a convergence of just the bad things.

SM (01:00:37):
Yeah. It was tragic up there with the motorcycle gang that beat up that guy, and of course... [inaudible] and then some of the atrocities in Vietnam are coming out at this time, revealed to the American public and...

RS (01:00:54):
Quite stunning to a suburban kid.

SM (01:00:56):
Yeah. And then of course, the American Indian movie went from Alcatraz, which was a good thing, to Wounded Knee, which was bad.

RS (01:01:06):
Yeah.

SM (01:01:06):
So you have a lot of these interesting contrasts. I did not know if they affected the students there or not. To go over the books again, we mentioned the Greening of America with Charles Reich, but there was another one. There were several others too. There was the Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak.

RS (01:01:28):
Yeah, I met him again about a year ago, this year actually. Very bright, interesting person. I believe his new book is The Making of the Elder Culture.

SM (01:01:39):
Yeah, I wanted to interview him, but he says he is retired and he has got a health issue.

RS (01:01:48):
He do not look the healthiest, but when he took the book reading, he was in Berkeley. He was very good.

SM (01:01:56):
Good. Yeah, and then the other ones were of course, Soul on Ice with Eldridge Cleaver and Harry Edwards Black Students. And you had The Other America by Michael Harrington and...

RS (01:02:08):
Yes.

SM (01:02:08):
And then there was the Erik Erikson's books on the psychology, I believe of the American youth at that time, and I know Kenneth Keniston also wrote a book, Youth and Radical. So, there is a lot of really good books out that I did not know if they were popular on college campuses.

RS (01:02:27):
They were. People like Abbie Hoffman's book Steal This Book. Gary Ruben's [inaudible] of course, The Realist by Paul Krassner, it was great. But a lot of the information we got was from underground newspapers. They seemed more willing to print what we thought was the truth.

SM (01:02:52):
What were the underground papers you liked?

RS (01:02:52):
There was one in Madison called Takeover, which was good. Chicago Seed was very good. I did not really see much of the Berkeley Barb being where I was, but I would heard of it.

SM (01:03:06):
Right.

RS (01:03:07):
And these which other I knew, was very significant. Occasionally I saw a copy.

SM (01:03:12):
Did you ever read Ramparts?

RS (01:03:13):
Sure.

SM (01:03:14):
Yeah.

RS (01:03:14):
Sure. Excellent investigative journalism at the time.

SM (01:03:21):
Yeah. Peter Richardson's got a whole book out on it right now.

RS (01:03:23):
He did a reading here. I want to go off the record with this but Warren Hinckle became an alcoholic. It was just not a [inaudible] at a bar and he was just... To use a cliche, a shell of his former self.

SM (01:03:40):
Yeah. I tried to get him to be interviewed and Peter told me the only way you can find him is in a bar.

RS (01:03:45):
Yes. I do not know, and I should not be saying this, and I ask you not to repeat it, but I think he and Paul Krassner must have had a falling out because he and Paul... And I cannot remember why exactly, but we walked into some place where Warren Hinckle was there and did not even say a hello to each other.

SM (01:04:03):
Well-

RS (01:04:04):
Unusual for people who shared many of the same values.

SM (01:04:08):
Yeah, it is not Paul. I think a lot of people realize he is a drunk. I am not going to say that, but I do not even know him.

RS (01:04:19):
Peter.

SM (01:04:20):
Peter said the only way he got the interview, and he was talking about it because Hinckle was brilliant. What a writer.

RS (01:04:28):
Yeah.

SM (01:04:28):
But he always had a problem with alcohol and-

RS (01:04:32):
Oh, I should add Rolling Stone to my group.

SM (01:04:34):
Yeah, he probably will die an alcoholic.

RS (01:04:40):
I would not be surprised. The way I saw him drinking, I am surprised he is alive now, but I do not want to pass judgment.

SM (01:04:45):
Yeah.

RS (01:04:46):
It is unfortunate. Who knows the pressures that he was under from the government or God knows who else.

SM (01:04:55):
Right. Yeah. Of the personalities of the (19)60s and (19)70s, who were the ones that you feel had the greatest impact on the generation, or particularly had the greatest impact on you who were a part of the generation?

RS (01:05:06):
I would have to start with Ken Kesey. Yeah, I remember a quote of his, and I may be butchering it, but I believe it was, "Most people are destined to leave their lives never having moved off of dead center?

SM (01:05:23):
Wow. That is a beautiful quote.


RS (01:05:25):
I did not want to be one of those people.
SM (01:05:27):
Very good.

RS (01:05:29):
I did not want to be one of those people. What he did in terms of promulgating light shows that... I do not want to say promulgate, that is the wrong word. Of using light shows, of course, the Grateful Dead is his house band.

SM (01:05:48):
Right.

RS (01:05:48):
And Acid in the Punch Bowl when it was still legal, probably after it was illegal. Seemed like they were the counter culturals, I will say funsters. Of course their name was Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters.

SM (01:06:13):
Yeah, it is Wavy Gravy, I believe.

RS (01:06:13):
Yes.

SM (01:06:13):
And Paul was in their group?

RS (01:06:16):
Yes. As opposed to Timothy Leary, who as you know, begin doing scientific research, the [inaudible] and other hallucinogens. I remember reading about how bummed out Kesey and the Pranksters were going to Millbrook in upstate New York, and they were taking everything so seriously at Millbrook, which is not the wrong thing to do, but it was a very different approach from the West Coast.

SM (01:06:46):
Were there any other personalities besides Ken Kesey, that you think really shaped the generation, and then you as a part of the generation?

RS (01:06:57):
I liked Paul Krassner's writing very much.

SM (01:07:02):
I got a couple of his books, but I got to get more.

RS (01:07:04):
And The Realist was a wonderful publication. Of course, you never know what was true and what was not.

SM (01:07:16):
Right. His sense of humor is unbelievable though.

RS (01:07:19):
Oh, he is a brilliant, brilliant man. He told a story about writing an article for the AARP Magazine, and when he got it, his article was not... They told him they would publish it and it was not in there. They called him and they told, they published three different magazines, one for people over 50, one for people over 60, one for people over 70. He was surprised to find out he was too old to read his own writing.

SM (01:07:47):
He said they had a-

RS (01:07:51):
He said that many times. Yeah, he said that-

SM (01:08:00):
I am laughing just... And I saw it yesterday on YouTube.

RS (01:08:04):
Still I love him.

SM (01:08:06):
He is a great guy. I got to meet him. I am going to come to LA next time instead of San Francisco.

RS (01:08:10):
He is in the Palm Springs area.

SM (01:08:13):
Yeah. How far is that from LA?

RS (01:08:17):
You got me. I cannot answer that. I know it... I do not know.

SM (01:08:21):
I know Cleve Jones moved there too. The AIDS quilt guy.

RS (01:08:27):
Okay.

SM (01:08:30):
He left San Francisco. He got tired of the overcast skies, so he is not there in San Francisco anymore. A lot of people are moving down there, according to what I am hearing. What do you think were the most impactful movies in that time that you were in college, that you remember, that you think were very influential on...

RS (01:08:53):
Haskell Wexler's Medium Cool, very interesting, being from Chicago. It is a cinéma verité film, a great deal of which was filmed at the Democratic Convention Street protests, it was good. Arthur Penn's Bonnie and Clyde was a new type of movie. Maybe I should not say new type. It was influential. Joe with Peter Boyle was a frightening movie.

SM (01:09:22):
I remember that. Yeah.

RS (01:09:26):
Joe was a very, I will say a conservative person, who at the end ended up shooting his own daughter. He was goaded into... Excuse me, I should not say that. Let me back up. I made a mistake about the content of the movie. Should I just say it was a very influential movie about extremely conservative…

SM (01:09:54):
Yeah.

RS (01:09:55):
I do not want to use the word redneck, because he was a northerner.

SM (01:10:00):
Well, only about 150 million are going to read this, so it is...

SM (01:10:02):
Well, only about 150 million are going to read this, so it is...

RS (01:10:02):
Well, how about if I just say he was a very influential... It was a very influential...

SM (01:10:11):
Yeah, that is fine. Any others? I always want to know-

RS (01:10:17):
Well, Woodstock of course.

SM (01:10:18):
Oh, yeah.

RS (01:10:19):
Groundbreaking movie in terms of its techniques and portrayal so many phenomenal rock bands. Similarly, Monterey Pop.

SM (01:10:28):
Hmm.

RS (01:10:32):
And Give Me Shelter by the Maysles brothers of Altamont was a-

SM (01:10:37):
Yeah.

RS (01:10:37):
... great movie. And of course, Easy Rider.

SM (01:10:40):
Yes.

RS (01:10:41):
Which was frightening, which I saw in LA in 1969 and walked out of there with friends shaking.

SM (01:10:43):
Yeah, I did not expect that ending.

RS (01:10:53):
I do not think anybody.

SM (01:10:54):
I often wondered when his friend got shot away, why he kept going.

RS (01:11:01):
Well, he turned around and then he got to... there was a prequel, it was showing the future before it happened.

SM (01:11:09):
Oh, okay.

RS (01:11:10):
And he turned, Dennis Hopper, turned around and got shot too.

SM (01:11:14):
Yeah.

RS (01:11:16):
But that was a frightening movie.

SM (01:11:20):
How about the Graduate? Was that the-

RS (01:11:21):
Very interesting film. Saw it and was still in high school.

SM (01:11:30):
And then, the Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice was supposed to be about the sexual mores of the era.

RS (01:11:36):
Yes. Sexual mores at the [inaudible] in at the end.

SM (01:11:40):
Right. And I think there was another movie that seemed to be the Zabriski Point.

RS (01:11:47):
God, you have a good number. Yes, I think there was a Strawberry Statement as well.

SM (01:11:52):
Yeah. That came later. And then there was the Sterile Cuckoo, Liza Minnelli.

RS (01:12:03):
I should remember that. But I do not, all I remember was Liza Minnelli's name.

SM (01:12:10):
Yeah, and Wendell Burton-

RS (01:12:13):
Okay. Go ahead.

SM (01:12:13):
Yeah. Liza Minnelli and Wendell Burton. And then of course Shaft.


RS (01:12:15):
Yes.
SM (01:12:16):
Yeah.

RS (01:12:16):
Interesting.

SM (01:12:22):
Was there anything on TV that you think will really... Well, you mentioned about the black and white TV and the Boomers were all in junior, or excuse me, in elementary school during that period. Or, just when I think of the (19)50s, I think of Howdy Doody, I think of Captain Kangaroo, I think of Dave Garaway Peace. I think of Hopalong Cassidy Lone Ranger.

RS (01:12:52):
How about Pinky Lee?

SM (01:12:53):
Yeah, Pinky Lee.

RS (01:12:54):
Pee-wee Herman's... what is the word? Influence.

SM (01:13:02):
Yeah. Rootie Kazootie. But there was also Walt Disney and all those shows, the Mouseketeers, Westerns galore. Very few African-Americans-

RS (01:13:14):
Start with the political things. Like that was the week that was, I thought a very interesting TV show.

SM (01:13:20):
Right.

RS (01:13:20):
Taken from the British show doing politics. Of course Laugh-In.

SM (01:13:26):
That was the (19)60s though.

RS (01:13:28):
Yeah. The Smothers Brothers, of course.

SM (01:13:30):
Yep.

RS (01:13:30):
Were very influential. What they went through just to put on the people like Peter Seeger was unbelievable.

SM (01:13:37):
Uh-huh, yep.

RS (01:13:42):
I did not watch much TV, but there was, God, I am trying to... Ted Paulson Show, very good.

SM (01:13:45):
I know in the (19)50s, Edward R. Murrow was seen to be a pretty honest guy.

RS (01:13:58):
Was.

SM (01:13:58):
Yeah.

RS (01:13:58):
Then Walter Cronkite took up the mantle.

SM (01:14:01):
Right.

RS (01:14:02):
When he said the war in Vietnam was unwinnable, I think that was a little turning point of the country.

SM (01:14:07):
Mm-hmm.

RS (01:14:09):
But there were so many written influence, such as underground comics, Robert Crumb, like Zapp! Comics written for kids.

SM (01:14:21):
Oh yeah, and that made into a movie in 1971.

RS (01:14:24):
Yeah, which was not that wonderful, I saw it of course.

SM (01:14:24):
Right.

RS (01:14:32):
But there were, I mean, so many influential publications, so many underground newspapers, magazine comics, countercultural publication, it seemed like eventually some of it eventually seeped into mainstream society.

SM (01:14:53):
One question I have been asking everyone is today you have members of the right, or conservatives, attacking the (19)60s generation, or the boomers that were young in the (19)60s and (19)70s as the reasons why we have all the problems in our society today, or most of them, because of the drug culture, the lack of sexual mores, i.e. the sexual revolution, the extreme divorce rate, breakup of the American family as a unit, the lack of going... families not going to church anymore. Went from going to church or synagogue to kind of an inner spirituality, and we saw that through the Beatles and the Maharishi and that group, the Moonies. Then we have, again, they attack the generation for the welfare state, the handout society, the sense of, "Well, I got to have it now." Type of an attitude, extensive consumerism where, "I got to have everything. I got to own everything. And, "If I cannot have it, I got to have it now." Kind of mentality. And that is why we have the financial problems we are in today. So, there is a lot of things. The other thing is too, that we have come into a society where it is all about rights. Everybody wants their rights, but lost them are irresponsible. Your thoughts of those attacks by people on the right?

RS (01:16:46):
I think back to a Bob Dylan line of, "Do not criticize what you cannot understand."

SM (01:16:51):
Well, that is good.

RS (01:16:54):
That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the goals of what we tried to do. Making a more equitable and egalitarian society I think has been and always will be seen as a threat to the establishment. I mean, there have always been the proletariat, bourgeoisie, but in the electronic age, such as we have, it seems like things are happening so much faster. The concentration of wealth, I think was one of the major problems. It was not enough to make a lot, you had to make more, and the other person had to have less. I think it is up to that, I think it is based on fear by and large, that there is not enough to go around so, "I am going to get mine and good luck with yours."

SM (01:17:43):
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is interesting because I know Randy Shaw, who you may know in San Francisco, the Tenderloin, and he also graduated from Berkeley. He wrote a book called The Activist Handbook. And in that handbook, he talks about the definition of what an activist is. And it is if you ever say the term, "What is in it for me?" You are not an activist because it is supposed to be, "What is in it for we?" And so that was interesting what you just said there, because there was some kind of a linkage. And how important-

RS (01:18:30):
I am a little punchy, so forgive me and please do not let me take things off the record, but it was about Plato being forced by the establishment to drink hemlock for telling the truth.

SM (01:18:44):
Mm-hmm, that is right.

RS (01:18:48):
You can include that. I am a little punchy, I was going to say Socrates...

SM (01:18:51):
Yeah, but there is true to that. Yeah, the sort of [inaudible]-

RS (01:18:54):
Because he taught young people what he believed was the truth. He ended up with a phony trial and being forced to drink hemlock, I think is nothing though.

SM (01:19:03):
I know there is a book up, but I.F. Stone wrote called The Trial of Socrates.

RS (01:19:09):
Stone wrote, yeah. Yes, yes. This is nothing new.

SM (01:19:13):
Yep. Now you mentioned that again. How important were The Beats in shaping the generation, in your opinion, in shaping certainly the new left?

RS (01:19:27):
Well, the older get, I guess the more I see their influence. I mean, so in America, there has always been a Bohemian side, but it seems like after World War II things seem to coalesce in certain areas, like Greenwich Village in New York City, North Beach area in San Francisco. Returning GIs from the war. Jazz musicians, liberal writers, they seemed to start gathering in certain places. Maybe they were always there, and I just did not know about it. But for example, in the early (19)50s, Lawrence Ferlinghetti opened up City Life Bookstore in San Francisco. He originally intended it only to be a store that sold only paperback books, but it became a magnet for disaffected writers and artists. Of course, he was put on trial for publishing Howl in 1956 an obscenity trial where the mores at the time said the police could decide what was obscene or not. If police did not like what you did, you did not do it.

SM (01:20:46):
Right.


RS (01:20:46):
Lenny Bruce is a good example.
SM (01:20:50):
And do you think that even that historic book that Kerouac wrote On the Road, it is symbolic of freedom, sense of-

RS (01:21:01):
Absolutely, it was adventures and observations of his encounters with America while being on the road.

SM (01:21:07):
And he is not being controlled by a boss, or by... he is just free.

RS (01:21:13):
Well, for me, it is a landmark of Pete writing was Ellen Ginsburg's Howl, you know about the dehumanization and degradation of the individual by the all-consuming corporate monolith. You know, you asked me about movies, Network was another one, which is-

SM (01:21:34):
Oh, yes.

RS (01:21:34):
... very, very good.

SM (01:21:37):
Go out to that window and say, "I am not going to take it anymore."

RS (01:21:41):
Yes. But also Ed Beatty as, maybe the CEO or president of a large corporation. The world is business, and it is really sad that people see the world as a business.

SM (01:21:58):
Another movie that you brought up I just thought of is Deliverance.

RS (01:22:04):
Yes and no. I mean, that was a...

SM (01:22:04):
He was in that too.

RS (01:22:11):
Yes, he was. Oh, you brought him up. Yes.

SM (01:22:13):
Yep.
RS (01:22:14):
I do not know that that is relevant politically.

SM (01:22:16):
Right.

RS (01:22:20):
It was culture, culture clash. But Howl...

SM (01:22:24):
Yeah.

RS (01:22:24):
The thing with the... and with Network, forgive me, Peter Fitz said, "It was not America that was finished, it was the individual that was finished." Afraid things are going in that direction. It seemed as though in the (19)60s we could be one step ahead of the man. Right now, it seems with all the high tech equipment and other means of control, they are one step ahead of us.

SM (01:22:56):
In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? When did it end, and what was the watershed moment?

RS (01:23:03):
I think it really began, if you want to speak about the (19)60s and not what led up to them, such as The Beats. I would say Ken Kesey, the epitaph, the Merry Pranksters and Grateful Dead, whom I like very, very much, playing long improvisational music. But Kesey was a very, very bright man exposing the world. The Magical Mystery Tour about the Beatles, as you know, was really a copy of what Kesey did.

SM (01:23:43):
When did it end?

RS (01:23:46):
Probably as the war wound down, the draft was abolished, it was became more self-interested, and less society... this is a bad phrasing, society interested.

SM (01:24:01):
Was there a watershed moment?

RS (01:24:07):
Possibly the reelection of Nixon, that area, that time, early (19)70s, after Jimmy Hendrix had died, Janice Joplin had died, Jim Morrison had died. Many political people, Fred Hampton had been assassinated in Chicago. It seemed to start losing its steam.

SM (01:24:38):
The generation gap. Did you have a generation gap of your parents, especially after you went off to college?

RS (01:24:46):
Yes and no. My father always said it was more important what was in my head then what was on it. And I believe that is true, we are hung up on the looks of rebellion rather than the ideas of rebellion.

SM (01:25:05):
Excellent. Yeah. There is no question that the generation gap was an issue between World War II generation and the boomers. Do you remember that Life magazine cover that had the boy on the cover that... wearing his blue glasses or whatever and the father's pointing a finger at him on one side of the glasses?

RS (01:25:27):
Yeah, I do.

SM (01:25:28):
And the son's pointing on the other. I had that magazine, it was pretty serious for many.

RS (01:25:35):
Well, I remember a quote that Ronald Reagan said while he was governor of California during protests at the University of California in Berkeley, "That if there is going to be a blood bath let us start now." He talked about killing people's own children.

SM (01:25:54):
Yeah, it is... And he came to power on two issues, this law and order on college campuses to end the student protestors from breaking up colleges, and secondly, to end the welfare state. And it is interesting because Watts took place in (19)64 in Los Angeles, so obviously what went on at Berkeley, what was going on in Watts and a lot of these things are directly related to him. And of course, that was a thrust onto the national stage in (19)76, and of course we know the rest of the history.

RS (01:26:37):
It was stunning how easily people were willing to... What is the word? Take extreme measures against people who thought different.

SM (01:26:55):
Right.

RS (01:26:58):
We used to call them the thought police, and I think we were right.

SM (01:27:03):
In your own words because you are a boomer and I guess you are 60, you were born in (19)49?

RS (01:27:09):
60 going on 19.

SM (01:27:12):
That is... Time and peace, same with me. I am not 60.

RS (01:27:17):
I am still trying to figure out what I am going to do when I grow up.

SM (01:27:21):
Yeah, Rick, that is the same thing with me.

RS (01:27:25):
My hair is just as long, I have worked out a lot. No, you can grow older without growing old.

SM (01:27:36):
I agree. And I believe the young people of that era, even though they stay in shape to try to stay young and so forth, there was a period of time many did not think that they were going to be mortal people, but they were going to live forever, I think they realized they were not going to now. But you know-

RS (01:27:57):
I saw people in law school in their early 20s who look like old men.

SM (01:28:04):
Yeah.

RS (01:28:04):
Not physically, but so much is spiritually.

SM (01:28:08):
Right.

RS (01:28:09):
You could see the... Yeah, their adolescence was a distant memory.

SM (01:28:17):
Yep.

RS (01:28:17):
Was all about the buck.

SM (01:28:20):
Yeah.

RS (01:28:22):
A work, go work hard in a law school, hope that a big corporate law firm hires you, 80 hours a week, make partner, buy a big house and then get divorced, move on to your... get rid of your starter wife and move up the social ladder.


SM (01:28:43):
And have a heart attack by 50. Sam... Describe the following years in your own words. You said, this is the era the boomers have been alive, do you like the term boomer?

RS (01:28:56):
I do not think it has been well defined. I mean, what is a boomer? Just because you were born a certain age, at a certain time period. I think it is more what you do than the time you were born. Were the boomers, by many people's definition, they psychologically were.

SM (01:29:17):
Yep. Yeah. I am finding that out that-

RS (01:29:20):
Ginsburg was a, if you want to think, Allen Ginsburg was a boomer.

SM (01:29:26):
Mm-hmm. Richie Havens was born in 1941, but he said, "I am a boomer. I am more of a boomer than the people who were boomers in the last 10 years of the boomer timeline." A lot of them believe boomers are really people that were born say around (19)37, (19)38 and go to about (19)56 or (19)57.

RS (01:29:47):
Rachel Meadow said something, and I know I am mangling her quote about, "Being put in a category so you could be satirized easily."

SM (01:29:56):
Right. Well, when you look at these periods, again, it is defined, higher ed does this for a reason, the boomers of those born between (19)46 and (19)64, that is the definition. And Obama would be a boomer because he was born in (19)62, I think.

(01:30:14):
But I am going to give you six timeframes here just put some words to these timeframes. For 1946 to 1960, what was it like to be in America at that time? Just a few words.

RS (01:30:31):
Conform, and they were wearing t-shirts, white t-shirts with nothing printed on them. I think Country Joe McDonald did something like that, "We wore white t-shirts, but we did not have anything written, nothing was written them.

SM (01:30:45):
Yep. I remember that.

RS (01:30:50):
When you graduated from high school, you went to work, went to college, or joined the army.

SM (01:30:56):
Mm-hmm. How about that period? (19)61 to (19)70?

RS (01:31:06):
You know, for me, probably the low point was the assassination of John Kennedy. I knew right away nothing would ever be the same.

SM (01:31:11):
Mm-hmm. Where were you when he was shot?

RS (01:31:17):
I sitting in the classroom in seventh grade when it came over to the intercom.

SM (01:31:22):
And were you let out of school early?

RS (01:31:25):
I believe so. I believe so. That was a terrible time, and I believe the country lost a great deal of its innocence and naivete.

SM (01:31:36):
When you look at that whole period about (19)61 through (19)70, besides Kennedy, what comes to mind? Or, does he dominate?

RS (01:31:48):
Could you repeat the question?

SM (01:31:50):
Yeah. Between 1961 and 1970, what comes to mind besides Kennedy? Or, is that assassination the dominant theme?

RS (01:31:59):
Kind of, for me a good analogy would be changing from watching a black and white TV to watching a color TV. Things exploded. I mean, there was the free speech movement in Berkeley. There was Ken Kesey and the Mary Pranksters, the use of cut... expanding drugs, a certain more openness to question what had been taken for granted.


SM (01:32:33):
Mm-hmm. How about the period (19)71 to 1980?
RS (01:32:43):
Liberalism, but retrenching. Talk about legalizing marijuana by Jimmy Carter, and I do not want to put words in his mouth, that was not what he said. Possibly the decriminalization, and I should not quote him either because I do not want to, but the decriminalization of marijuana, the mainstream acceptance of some of the arts. Including music, drawings, clothes. Yet, retrenching at the same time. I will never forget when I came out to Berkeley in 1976 to visit, I went into the Good Earth health food store and the girl working behind the counter was wearing a shirt with an alligator on it. I knew things had changed.

SM (01:33:42):
Yeah. How about 1981 to 1990?

RS (01:33:55):
Yeah. Think about that one. I cannot give you something off the top of my head. That is hard. Disco? No, that was earlier. I should not say disco.

SM (01:33:59):
That was the (19)76 to (19)80.

RS (01:34:12):
Oh God, I am dating myself.

SM (01:34:13):
Ronald Reagan was that period.

RS (01:34:16):
He was. Just say no, the demonization of the (19)60s and the counterculture.

SM (01:34:29):
How about 1991 to 2000?

RS (01:34:35):
At first, the belief that we had elected for president one of us. Clinton playing saxophone on Arsenio Hall was something I never expected to see a presidential candidate do. Well, Nixon played the piano on Jack Paar, I believe.

SM (01:34:55):
Right.

RS (01:34:55):
Not the same.

SM (01:35:00):
Yeah. I think-

RS (01:35:00):
The idea that we had elected someone who would understand, to use a cliche, where we were coming from, because he and his wife were one of us.

SM (01:35:15):
Mm-hmm. And the period-

RS (01:35:28):
Art, hip.

SM (01:35:29):
Right.

RS (01:35:29):
Intelligent and presumably liberal.

SM (01:35:30):
Then the period 2001 to 2011?

RS (01:35:35):
Frightening.

SM (01:35:38):
Certainly 9/11 defined it.

RS (01:35:40):
Frightening. The rationalization of entrenching further and further government control in every aspect of people's lives, and the justification for taking away people's liberty.

SM (01:36:01):
This is just another thing too. When you are talking about the period, how did the Cold War, McCarthyism, the threat of the nuclear bomb, the space race, the March on Washington in (19)63, the Kennedy inaugural speech, "Ask not what your country can do for you..." And his assassination, the Cuban Missile Crisis, shape your life? Those are all major happenings. You already talked about JFK, but were those other events in some way affect your life?

RS (01:36:34):
Well, not directly, but it really made you feel how vulnerable you were. If the president can get shot what can happen to me?

SM (01:36:46):
You are right.

RS (01:36:50):
The impermanence of everything, if the mighty and powerful can be taken down, how about the little guy's chance? I keep going back to the movie Network, which I thought was excellent, about America not being finished. It was the end that we sit in our houses with our color TVs and we have some steel-belted radials. There was also another movie by Jules Pfeiffer, named Little Murders, with Elliot Gould.

SM (01:37:27):
Elliot Gould?

RS (01:37:28):
Who sat there living behind steel shutters in New York, sniping at people and then shooting back. Kind of like Escape from New York... let us see, a prequel to Escape from New York.


SM (01:37:43):
Wow.
RS (01:37:43):
I do not know where I am coming up with this.

SM (01:37:48):
Yeah, what is happened with a lot of my interviews is that I interviewed... Well, who was it? [inaudible]... Richard Flax. You know Dr. Flax?

RS (01:37:59):
I do not.

SM (01:37:59):
He helped write the free speech move... excuse me, the Tom Hayden, and he was a professor of UC Santa Barbara and I brought up things in it, and boy, he loved it yesterday or two days ago because it was bringing back these memories and he was pretty good at remembering things. And he felt real good at the end of the interview because it stretched his mind and made him remember things he had not thought about in a long time. Do you think we as a nation have an issue with healing, problem with healing? We took a group of students to Washington in 1995 to see Edmund Muskie and the students that I took down to Washington from my university were not alive in the (19)60s, but they had seen the 1968 convention, the terrible battles between police and young people, and they saw what happened inside the convention hall. They had seen movies of what was going on in the (19)60s. They knew the two people that were murdered in 1968, and they had seen some people in those videos saying that we are having a second civil war coming and all those other things. And since we had Edmund Muskie to talk to, he was the vice-presidential running mate. And so they thought he was going to respond to this question based on 1968. And the question was this, do you feel that due to the tremendous divisions that took place in our society, that during the time that the boomers have been alive, that they are going to go to their grave, like the Civil War generation not truly healing? That the bitterness, the vindictiveness, dislikes have continued in many ways and we see it today in our divisive nature, in our politics, and of course the backlash we see. So do you think we have a problem as a nation with healing?

RS (01:40:06):
I do, and I am not optimistic. Views seem to be getting more and more and more entrenched. I mean, an example is Fox News and MSNBC, I cannot recall the name of the writer of a wrote about mirror culture, how you only want to see things that reflect back what you already want to see. I think that is very true. I am guilty of it myself. I think conservative people will go to their graves saying that we ruined America and liberal people will go to their graves saying we tried to save it.

SM (01:40:53):
Do you think that the wall, the Vietnam Memorial, which I know you probably visited.

RS (01:41:02):
Actually, I have not, but I am familiar with it.

SM (01:41:05):
Yeah. Has that done anything, as Jan Scruggs said in his book, not only did we build the wall mainly to heal the vets, the families of those who died, and the 3 million who served, but that we tried in some way to heal the nation. Do you think the wall has done that?

RS (01:41:23):
I do not. I think it is a wonderful monument to people who died, in my view, unnecessarily. But as far as healing goes, I do not know. I think it is a place for people to go and grieve family or friend, but an influence beyond that, I do not think, I do not so.

SM (01:41:45):
Do you think, I have a question here too regarding trust. That one of the major qualities that the boomer generation possesses, and I kind of include all 70... I do not like to generalize, but I think in this one I am that all 74 million, those who were for or against the war, liberals, conservatives, or even the 85 to 90 percent who were not activists in any way and just went on with their lives, so to speak, but were subconsciously affected that this is a generation that did not trust. It did not trust because of the fact that so many of their leaders lied to them. Whether you were astute enough to see Eisenhower lie to elementary school kids in 1959 about U2, the spy plane that he said it was not, and it was. To the Gulf of Tonkin with Lyndon Johnson, to Watergate with Richard Nixon, to all the lies that came out of Vietnam in terms of numbers. And there did not seem to be any trusting in our generation toward anyone in the sense of authority, whether it be a president, a university president, a corporate leader, a rabbi, a priest, a minister, anybody in a position of leadership, we do not trust them.

RS (01:43:04):
I think it is a health mistrust. I think not questioning authority is unhealthy. Again, I keep going wait to the classics, the Greek classics.

SM (01:43:20):
Right?

RS (01:43:21):
People have always been punished for questioning the predominant, I do not want to use rulers, what is a better word than rulers? Governing authority. Remember a bumper sticker, "Subvert the dominant paradigm." That is very good. That is very good.

SM (01:43:56):
Do you remember as a young person, when you were a college student, you would see a car that had an American flag on it and you knew that the person who had the American flag was a conservative saying that, "I am a better American than you are." Basically a statement to those who were against the war.

RS (01:44:15):
Absolutely. I remember a friend telling me a story about he was attending the University of Iowa, going into this small town for whatever reason, meeting hostility and running into some guy who he saw also had long hair, was as if had met his brother, you knew you could trust him. You knew who someone was by their looks, I should say you knew what they believed by their looks. Now, I think there are a great deal of wolves in sheep clothing.

SM (01:44:51):
Yeah. I think there were a lot of wolves in sheep's clothing, but I can remember just getting off the subject, but I was picked up by my dad, we were going home from college and he pulled into a gas station and there was a man who had a white... He pulled into a gas station and there was a man who had an American flag. I did not have that long hair. I had longer hair, but not real long.

RS (01:45:10):
Were you a communist homosexual radical?

SM (01:45:13):
No, but what happened was I looked at that flag and I said to my dad, "I got to say something to that guy." My dad said, "Steve, do not start something here." Because basically I would learned that putting an American flag on your car then, not like it is now, it is different today, but putting a flag on your car then was basically saying, "I am a better American than you are." And that pissed me off.

RS (01:45:39):
Well, the prevalent attitude by many people was "love it or leave it."

SM (01:45:42):
That is right.

RS (01:45:42):
Instead of love it or change it.

SM (01:45:42):
Yes.

RS (01:45:49):
That is not the right way to say this. Love it and change it.

SM (01:45:53):
Exactly.

RS (01:45:54):
It was not, if you did not like it, get out. Because if you like it, help it.

SM (01:46:01):
What are the lessons learned from the (19)60s? And what are the lessons lost from the (19)60s?

RS (01:46:10):
I think one of them is to have fun. To have fun. I remember in the movie Citizen Kane, Edward Everett Horton, who played Bernstein, saying to the reporter interviewing him, "It is very easy to make a lot of money if all you want to do is make a lot of money." I want to do a lot more. Although I could certainly use the financial, cannot count it when you are dead. Although, oh, that is a stupid thing to fix. You cannot count anything after you are dead. But try hugging it when you are lonely or scared. Human... There is a word I am searching. Human values rather than material value?

SM (01:47:11):
Yeah, materialism.

RS (01:47:15):
It is necessary, but it is not sufficient. How about that?

SM (01:47:25):
That is great.

RS (01:47:26):
Accumulation of objects and wealth may be necessary, but it certainly is deficient.

SM (01:47:29):
What are the lessons you think we have lost from the (19)60s and the (19)70s? Or when boomers were young?

RS (01:47:37):
Certainly there is more cynicism, bitterness. I think what we lost is the sense that we can make a difference. As I said earlier, many people, young people, I believe give up without trying. How will they know?

SM (01:48:05):
I know that when you hear people like Tom Hayden and some of the other activists who have been unbelievable leaders their whole lives, they look at the positive side of today's generation as they see some of the activism that they are involved in on the computer. It is changed somewhat, but there is a lot of activism going on-on the internet and so forth, so there are some good things. It is just one of them seems to be that they are not publicized and so we do not know.

RS (01:48:38):
I disagree. I am very late to the technological revolution. I do not believe that someone sending you an email from Australia telling you "your friend" makes them your friend. I thought a friend with someone you could call late at night when you needed them and they would come. That is someone who wants to get on a social network and say, " I am your friend," but then if you ever actually spoke and called them and needed help, will they be there for you?

SM (01:49:10):
Good point. Yep. I am now to the section I want to ask you about your memorabilia after all this time. Sorry, make sure the tapes back on here again. And it seems to be working. All right. You said in your email that you have a thousand items and 700 are signed.

RS (01:49:44):
I have several thousand items.

SM (01:49:45):
Wow. Have you broken these down into different categories? What are the categories?

RS (01:49:56):
Books. I collect first edition books. Books, posters, handbills, leaflets, underground newspapers, underground comics, bumper stickers, records, clothes, pinback buttons, and a lot of miscellaneous stuff.

SM (01:50:28):
I should have told you, I just got rid of all my (19)70s clothes.

RS (01:50:31):
Oh.

SM (01:50:33):
I gave them to the Salvation Army. I had them all these years. They were in great shape too.

RS (01:50:39):
Do not tell me stuff like that.

SM (01:50:41):
Well, I figured they did not have any value.

RS (01:50:43):
I do not know. I have clothes, but I have no idea what the value is.

SM (01:50:50):
Right. Well, I still have some of them, but it is the clothes I wore. You know those shoes that were platform shoes and those kinds of things?

RS (01:50:57):
Absolutely.

SM (01:50:59):
Well, I did not get rid of those, but I do have some of the items.

RS (01:51:04):
Glam Rock stuff.

SM (01:51:06):
Oh, yeah. Now, how did you accumulate? Did you buy these or did you... And how did you get them all signed? Or did you collect them while you were in college, or has this all been something since your college days in collecting?

RS (01:51:21):
No, I started collecting things in college: underground newspapers, comics, posters, leaflets. Political protest leaflets I would take off a telephone pole. They looked interesting, and many of them were period pieces with artwork. I knew these things were unique to the time period, and I felt that they should be preserved.

SM (01:51:50):
Excellent.

RS (01:51:50):
Later on, in the (19)80s, I got a catalog from someone who had taken many items. And it was the first time I had seen these things categorized and broken down into logical, coherent categories. I bought a few items and it became obsessive.

SM (01:52:13):
It is like me, I am a bibliophile, so I have thousands of books. So, I have a lot of (19)60s books.

RS (01:52:20):
I have a lot myself, but I thought that it would be wonderful to meet some of the people who were involved and participated in all the activities. And I started going to book signings and political discussions and just hearing all the lecturers, authors, as well as scrounging through used bookstores, junk shops, yard sales, catalogs, Paper Collectors Magazines, record stores. That is quite a bit.

SM (01:53:00):
Yeah. Well, what is interesting, I have collected anything dealing with Vietnam on magazines. And I have ordered them all. And so I have just about anything linked of Vietnam. I have all the Look, Life magazines that have Vietnam. I have gotten a lot of Newsweek and Time magazines dealing with that as well.

RS (01:53:23):
Posters. I am sorry to interrupt.

SM (01:53:25):
Yeah, go ahead.

RS (01:53:26):
I think posters could be broken down into two different groups, really. Posters that were used for one specific event, such as a protest rally or a music concert or a literary event. The posters produced either commercially or underground dealing with politics, ecology, et cetera. One example of the first one are Fillmore or Avalon posters, meaning posters used to promote events at the Fillmore Auditorium or the Avalon ballroom.

SM (01:53:57):
Oh, yeah.

RS (01:54:01):
And posters for political events or handbills such as the Yippies passed out before the Democratic Convention. And then just generalized things like "Make Love Not War" was one classic. Just in general cultural items.

SM (01:54:23):
Bill Graham, somebody bought a warehouse of all his stuff.

RS (01:54:28):
Sure. I bought some things from Ben Friedman, he used to have a store called The Postermat at 601 Columbus in San Francisco.

SM (01:54:34):
Right.

RS (01:54:36):
Yes.

SM (01:54:36):
They were sitting there for years, just in the closed warehouse, is not that correct?

RS (01:54:41):
Yes. Well, I do not want to get off, but this is off the record, but people from the company called Park Rock bought it. This is what they paid. Oh, they bought it for a million dollars, made the first payment and then stiffed them. And they made a small fortune on this stuff.

SM (01:54:57):
Oh, wow.

RS (01:54:57):
It is more than a small one.

SM (01:54:59):
Wow. Yeah. Now, when you talk about how many... I broke it down here. I thought you had had books, posters, records. Do you have toys?

RS (01:55:11):
I have miscellaneous of things. A jigsaw puzzle with Agnew on one side and Nixon on the other. I do not know toys per se, but miscellaneous items: little figurines, clothes, just all sorts of things.

SM (01:55:32):
Yeah. I still have all my cowboy and Indian sets from the (19)50s.

RS (01:55:39):
Wow.

SM (01:55:40):
Yeah. And army, those metal army figures. I accumulated them all. They are all going to my... I am creating a center for the study of the boomer generation at my parents' college.

RS (01:55:54):
What I would like to do very, very much is get some of my stuff in display cases.

SM (01:55:59):
Yes.

RS (01:56:00):
Exhibit. I spoke with the director of special collections for the University of Virginia Library, and he is very interested, but they have a lag time for exhibits for two years. They have a large collection of their own. And he said he would run it by a committee to see if they wanted to get involved with my stuff, but I do not think they have a budget to do it.

SM (01:56:25):
Yeah. Do you have a website with some? You do not put your stuff out there on the pictures.

RS (01:56:28):
No, I do not. I am private that way. I do not want someone to see what I have.

SM (01:56:28):
Yeah. I think you need to keep that private.

RS (01:56:35):
I would be happy to show it to them, but I do not really publicize what I do, what I have.

SM (01:56:40):
Yeah, same here. I have a condominium here and I got two of the rooms are stacked with books and books everywhere and people cannot believe all the books I have.

RS (01:56:49):
Yeah. What I have is my stuff. There is a company that makes archival things called Light Impressions, archival storage boxes with pH neutral cardboard and Mylar sleeves. I have hundreds and hundreds, if not more, of my handbills and leaflets in Mylar sleeves.

SM (01:57:15):
Wow. Those are—

RS (01:57:15):
Supposedly, Mylar is chemically inert and will last for a hundred years.

SM (01:57:18):
Wow. Yeah, you said you have used them in a college course. What college and how did they use them?

RS (01:57:27):
There was a course at the college at Marin on the 19(19)60s, and I brought some to show. But I enjoy meeting some of the people who were involved or caused so much of everything to happen. Like everyone from Jerry Rubin, Paul Krassner, people involved with the Human Be-In in Golden Gate Park. Rock musicians. Of course, Ginsburg, Berliner, Getty, Michael McClure, Tim Leary, John Sinclair from the White Panther Party. Then Tom Hayden.

SM (01:58:13):
Do you have presidential memorabilia too from that era?

RS (01:58:17):
Not really. I have political posters, but I would not call it presidential memorabilia.

SM (01:58:28):
Yeah.

RS (01:58:28):
And anti-Nixon, anti- Johnson. Yeah.

SM (01:58:37):
I actually, this is your interview, but I collected as a kid, so I had the Eisenhower/Nixon stuff, and then I have the Nixon/Lodge stuff who ran against Kennedy and Johnson. Then I have Kennedy/Johnson, and then I have Barry Goldwater and Miller.

RS (01:58:55):
Well, I have a Gene McCarthy item signed by him and a George McGovern item signed by him.

SM (01:59:04):
Great. Yeah. You noticed the people that I have interviewed, most of them have signed their books. And then, of course, I worked at the university for 30 some years, and so everybody that came through, I had them sign their books. So I have a lot of things too. But I am curious, I listed some names here from Jerry Ruben to Ken Kesey, Alan Ginsburg, Leary, Paul Krassner, Jerry Garcia. Any of the Black Panther stuff?

RS (01:59:33):
Sure.

SM (01:59:34):
Yeah. I wonder what happened to all that stuff that was over in Oakland. Did anybody ever keep any of that stuff besides you?

RS (01:59:43):
I believe the Black Panthers sold their archive to Stanford University. But sure, Bobby Seale, Kathleen Cleaver, and a number of other people's signatures.

SM (02:00:00):
Wow. How about the free speech movement? Any materials on that?

RS (02:00:03):
Absolutely. Mario Savio who passed away long ago signed a few of my things. Michael Rossman, who passed away did. Yes, I do. I really have a well-rounded collection in a lot of different areas: political, social, artistic.

SM (02:00:28):
And then of course you had... I do not know if you had materials from the Summer of Love, which was (19)67 and—

RS (02:00:35):
A great deal. There was a group in the 1967 Summer of Love in The Haight-Ashbury called The Diggers, which was—

SM (02:00:42):
Oh, yeah. That is with Peter Coyote.

RS (02:00:45):
I have approximately 40 of their handbills.

SM (02:00:48):
Wow.

RS (02:00:51):
Sure. I have all five handbills the Human Be-in.

SM (02:00:57):
Oh my gosh.

RS (02:00:57):
And two printer variants. Each one has signed by about 15, 20 participants in the event. And one of the two Human Be-In posters, which is a classic. I have an original Acid Test poster from 1964, which is extremely rare, signed by Ken Kesey, and Allen Ginsberg, and Paul Krassner and others.

SM (02:01:21):
Wow. Yeah. How did you find that?

RS (02:01:27):
I got it from Kesey's son actually. I used to be friends with him in the (19)80s, (19)90s.

SM (02:01:31):
Oh, wow.

RS (02:01:33):
Zane Kesey. I was friends with him, and I actually went up to Oregon for the world premiere of a play his dad, Ken Kesey, wrote called Twister in the early (19)90s. And then when they put the play on here at the Fillmore Auditorium for two nights, I did the video camera work for one night.

SM (02:01:56):
Yeah. Do you have any things from Kent State too?

RS (02:02:09):
I have something that is absolutely unique. I got it from one of the attorneys for some of the National Guardsmen involved died, and in his estate was an actual transcript of where interrogation is, might be wrong, questioning of the National Guardsmen under oath as to what happened afterwards. It is one of a kind.

SM (02:02:34):
Wow. Yeah, I know recently, in the last couple years, one of those Guardsmen died that had actually spoken. Most of them have not spoken, but he was the one that had, and then he passed away. I forget his name.

RS (02:02:51):
I have Judge Julius Hoffman, who presided over the Chicago Seven trial in Chicago's Christmas album during that time with Christmas cards from Mayor Daley and the head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, and a number of other people.

SM (02:03:05):
They did a record?

RS (02:03:07):
No. They did... Look, this is actually Judge... Let me back up. This is Judge Julius Hoffman's Christmas album. I do not mean album. I mean his own Christmas cards that were sent to him that he put in an album.

SM (02:03:20):
Oh my gosh. Wow.

RS (02:03:25):
I have quite a bit.

SM (02:03:26):
How would you ever find that? How do you find some of these things?

RS (02:03:30):
In the Paper Collectors Magazine about 20 years ago.

SM (02:03:34):
Wow.

RS (02:03:35):
Hang on for a second. Let me just grab some more water.

SM (02:03:36):
Yep, that is okay.

RS (02:03:37):
I got a lot of early SDS publications from the the early (19)60s and one called the Port Huron Statement. It was a pivotal document that came out in 1963. I do not know how much you want to hear about this.

SM (02:04:16):
Yeah, I just want just some of the items because it is important that this is history and this is all about history.

RS (02:04:19):
Sorry. Sorry, I interrupted you. Please go ahead. Go ahead.

SM (02:04:21):
No, I am done. Go ahead.

RS (02:04:23):
The Port Huron Statement was... What is the word? It had to do with student participation which is participatory democracy. A number of similar leaders from all over the country met in 1963 in Port Huron, Michigan to put together a manifesto for student participation in politics in society. I have a mimeograph draft version that Tom Hayden wrote, which I believe may be the only copy in the world.

SM (02:05:03):
Wow.

RS (02:05:04):
Signed by Tom Hayden.

SM (02:05:05):
Yeah, because you see he and Richard Flax were the two that wrote it. Wow.

RS (02:05:08):
I believe The Port Huron Statement was primarily written by Tom Hayden.

SM (02:05:09):
It was, but Richard Flax was a very good writer and Tom got to know him quite well, and he was involved in making some corrections and proper English, so he was there. I interviewed him on Monday. He is a retired sociology professor.

RS (02:05:35):
Huh.

SM (02:05:36):
And he has written some great books. He has written three major books on the (19)60s. He is a retired professor.

RS (02:05:46):
No, I have, as I said, a lot of early SDS items. I have Weather Underground items, Yippie items; hand bills mostly. Of course, Woodstock related items, including tickets and the program for Woodstock, which is very rare because it rained for three days and the programs were mostly destroyed.

SM (02:06:11):
You are right. You are right.

RS (02:06:14):
So, I have an original Woodstock program signed by some of the participants of Woodstock.

SM (02:06:19):
Wow. So that is really neat. Yeah, I have quite a few books that are signed by people, but it is fun, is not it, trying to get them to sign things if they are still alive, some of these people.

RS (02:06:36):
And some are nice and some are not, but I guess that is the way people are.

SM (02:06:40):
Right.

RS (02:06:42):
Some of them insist on dating things because when they date them it makes it less valuable than if they had just simply signed their name. But word records that are very rare dealing with politics or drug use, a whole host of things. It is hard to summarize several thousand items. I made a mistake. The Port Huron Statement, in addition to having the mimeograph, I also have a second printing. I just have the mimeograph draft statement.

SM (02:07:22):
I think the original was in a brown cover?

RS (02:07:25):
God, yeah. Yeah, you are right. Yes. Yes, you are absolutely correct. Yes.

SM (02:07:31):
And guess who has that?

RS (02:07:34):
You.

SM (02:07:34):
Yes. I found that in a used bookstore.

RS (02:07:39):
Well, I have the second printing and I have the mimeograph draft version, but I do not have a first printing.

SM (02:07:48):
Wow.

RS (02:07:50):
And then the San Francisco Oracle was the quintessential underground newspaper. Only 12 issues were put out. It was in San Francisco by Allen Cohen. And I have every issue also signed by Allen, who passed away. Fillmore and Avalon posters, as I said, and handbills.

SM (02:08:19):
Wow.

RS (02:08:20):
Several hundred pinback buttons, political and cultural, such as Make Love Not War.

SM (02:08:31):
The black fist for the Black Panthers?

RS (02:08:33):
Sure.

SM (02:08:34):
Yeah. Wow.

RS (02:08:36):
The many anti-Nixon, anti-Johnson, Gene McCarthy, George McGovern.

SM (02:08:45):
Wow. Excellent.

RS (02:08:53):
I really feel an obligation to try to preserve as much of the counterculture as possible.

SM (02:09:02):
Yeah. Now that you have got this collection together, what do you plan to do with it? You going to pass it on to a university for protection someday?

RS (02:09:14):
I really do not know. I have not decided.


SM (02:09:14):
Unless you got a family that cares about it.

RS (02:09:16):
Well, I am single.

SM (02:09:22):
As a person who is reached 62, (19)60s, I have had to think about where my stuff's going, and my family, none of them want this stuff. So, I am working on an arrangement with my parents' college that they will take my collection for nothing, as long as they protect it, preserve it, and they follow guidelines that I give to them. And it has to be for education, and it has to be for students and research.

RS (02:09:55):
Good.

SM (02:09:55):
Because you just cannot let it just go. And it has to go where it is going to be appreciated. And to me, it has to be used by students. And it is going to take a couple years, because this college, I could have done it to my alma mater SUNY Binghamton and I would have gotten a much bigger response and a much faster response. But I am doing it because my parents went to this small school outside Syracuse, Cazenovia College, and I want to be able to do something to improve their campus, but they have got to protect it. And it is going to take a while because they do not have the building, they do not have the money. And times are tough, but I know what I want them to do. And for items like you have, you also want to make sure that if a university ends up... you need to have a person that is going to check on them every so often, someone that you can trust that they are following through with what they said they were going to do with the materials. So, I have my niece, even though she has got... I have picked one person. She has agreed to do it. So that when all my items are there and all documented and everything, that no one professor can take items away from it and keep it for themselves. Secondly, some items have to be worn with white gloves. Thirdly, and most importantly, they cannot be taken away from the university and they cannot be taken away from the research area where they are. They are for student and faculty research. It is pure education. It is a lot easier said than done right now because that place is almost 400 miles from me. I am not going to die tomorrow, I hope, but I do know that I have it now that they are going to get them.

RS (02:11:57):
It is a good plan. I have not taken it that far yet.

SM (02:12:00):
Yeah, but you need to know that your items are valuable. And you know something? Rick, I think sometimes even beyond the person who collects, there is a reason why you are doing it that you may not even realize it while. You are doing it because you like it and you personally care about these things.

RS (02:12:22):
Well, also because I feel I have, for whatever reason, an obligation to preserve as much as possible of a time period I do not think it is ever going to happen again.

SM (02:12:32):
I agree.

RS (02:12:35):
This was a, I cannot say unique because every time period is unique, but a groundbreaking explosion of human potential.


SM (02:12:49):
Yeah. I think some of the things you have got are unique, because they have never existed before and will never exist again.

RS (02:12:58):
Well, showing how society had changed so much. I feel like a cultural historian.

SM (02:13:06):
And I know Paul, when he gave the names, it has taken me a while to contact the names. I think I had your name six months ago from Paul. But I have contacted everyone and the only person in the list that he gave me is Stewart Brand was the only one that did not want to do an interview. He is the only one.

RS (02:13:24):
Funny you mentioned him. About 20 years ago, I asked for some autographs on things. Excuse me, I have to eat something. I feel my blood sugar dropping down to zero. I was living in Mill Valley. Stewart Brand had a place in Sausalito where he did the Whole Earth catalog.


SM (02:13:46):
Yes.
RS (02:13:48):
I called and said, "I collected some things. They are not for resale. This is just for me. Would you sign all my stuff?" He said, "No autographs!" Just like that. "No, autographs!"

SM (02:14:01):
Yeah. Well, he must be a friend of Paul's. But he just simply said, "I have no interest at this time." But he also is a multi-millionaire now, and so he has got—

RS (02:14:15):
I think after he went to MIT and became a technocrat he kind of lost his roots.

SM (02:14:20):
Yeah. He is the only one. And then the other one is Ina May Gaskin. I interviewed Steven, but Ina May has not responded. So she is the only other one. And it took me a while to get Carolyn Garcia, but I finally got Carolyn.

RS (02:14:39):
She is sweet.

SM (02:14:40):
Oh, she is really nice. I interviewed her on the phone and when I was out there I took her picture just outside Golden Gate Park. She is a very nice person. By the way, she does not like that new book on Ken Kesey either.

RS (02:14:51):
Which one?

SM (02:14:52):
It is a brand-new book out. I bought it right over there by the Golden Gate Park, the Haight Street...

RS (02:15:06):
The Booksmith.

SM (02:15:06):
Yeah. And it was in there and it was brand new. And I mentioned to Carolyn when I was... She just drove over so I could take her picture at the entrance to the park to be at the top of her interview. And she says, "He was not supposed to print that book. There were certain things that I objected to and that I did not like." So, there is some mistruths in that book. And I do not know anything about it, but I think there is going to be some issues going on down the road on that. My last question is this, do you have any more to say on the memorabilia?

RS (02:15:42):
It is an incredible window into a wonderful time period in American history. Give me a second.

SM (02:15:54):
Yep.

RS (02:15:54):
Can I say something that if you want to put this in somewhere you can?

SM (02:15:58):
Okay.

RS (02:16:00):
I went to about 160 Grateful Dead concerts.

SM (02:16:03):
Wow.

RS (02:16:04):
Some of the best times in my life.

SM (02:16:06):
I only went to one.

RS (02:16:08):
Wonderful, wonderful. My first one was in Madison, actually, College. And at that time things were so loose that, looking appropriate, I just simply walked up some stairs up to the stage and spent the whole concert leaning on the bass player's, Phil Lesh's, amp.

SM (02:16:28):
Oh my God.

RS (02:16:28):
That is how things were in 1970. (19)71. Actually, this is (19)71 now.

SM (02:16:28):
Right?

RS (02:16:36):
Yeah. I have about 300 Grateful Dead tapes of concerts. One of them, I was friends with a friend of one of the guys, and at the 1986 New Year's show, they got me backstage. Not only backstage, but actually into the band room after the show where all the guys were. There were so many tanks of nitrous oxide, it looked like a hospital.

SM (02:16:59):
Oh my gosh.

RS (02:17:01):
And I had some of the best times in my life at those shows. I think Joseph Campbell called them a Dionysian Celebration of Life. I cannot improve on that.

SM (02:17:16):
Yeah. Jerry Garcia was a hell of a talent. And what a great guitar player. And I never met him. I just mentioned to Carolyn, just from what I saw, and I see him on YouTube a lot, he seemed to be a very gentle person.

RS (02:17:29):
He was.

SM (02:17:29):
Even with interviews with him and Ken Kesey, they looked like they were brothers. They were having a good time together. There was a mutual respect. And he seemed to be a very humble person, because he came from tough times.

RS (02:17:48):
Well, he said, I think after being in the Grateful Dead for 20 years, he was just starting to learn how to play a guitar.

SM (02:17:53):
My God. Huh.

RS (02:17:57):
I used to see him driving his BMW around Mill Valley. He was friends, well not only friends, for many years with David Grisman, who was in the New Riders of the Purple Sage, and a phenomenal mandolin player who lived nearby, a few minutes away from where I lived. I would see him driving his black BMW.

SM (02:18:14):
Well, is not it amazing that the San Francisco Bay area has all this talent? I am amazed. And of course when I lived... I lived out there from (19)76 to (19)83, Huey Lewis and the News came up and the Tower of Power were there and Boz Scaggs over in Marin County. And there were a lot of different groups. I know John Handy and his saxophone playing down at the Embarcadero Center.

RS (02:18:40):
There it’s
s one event that stood out in my mind, and I do not know where you can put this in the interview if you choose to, but after I saw the Jefferson Airplane do a concert at the University of Wisconsin Field House two weeks after Kent State, there were about 15,000 people in the audience, and the conclusion, the last song they played was called Volunteers. It was off the Volunteers album. And one of the lines was, "Up against the wall, Motherfucker." And 15,000 people put their fists in the air.

SM (02:19:19):
Wow.

RS (02:19:20):
Something I will never forget.

SM (02:19:22):
Yeah, you mentioned at Wisconsin that you saw the Grateful Dead and you saw—


RS (02:19:25):
Janice. And Hendrix.
SM (02:19:25):
You saw all these people there?

RS (02:19:32):
I remember seeing Jimi Hendrix. It was after Woodstock, but before the movie came out. And I remember during the concert, somebody said, "What can we get you, Jimi?" And he said, "A joint." They started throwing joints at him. Joints are bouncing off his chest, off his guitar.

SM (02:19:51):
Oh my gosh.

RS (02:19:54):
20 or 30 of them must have hit him. Joints. And then the last thing he did was appeared in the Woodstock movie doing the Star-Spangled Banner.

RS (02:20:03):
Appeared in the Woodstock movie doing the Star-Spangled Banner.

SM (02:20:07):
Oh yeah.

RS (02:20:07):
Which was before the movie came out. And then I had never seen In The Purple Haze.

SM (02:20:09):
Oh my God.

RS (02:20:11):
Phenomenal.

SM (02:20:14):
And you say you saw Janice there too?

RS (02:20:18):
Sure. (19)69, going to the concert November, wearing a coat and tie.

SM (02:20:28):
Unbelievable.

RS (02:20:28):
By the Kent state time I had changed. Can I tell you something that must be off the rec? My roommates and I used to buy hash from and Glenn Silber who did the War at Home movie.

SM (02:20:36):
Oh my gosh.

RS (02:20:38):
I have been around my friend.

SM (02:20:40):
Yeah. Well when Janice Joplin was, that was the Chief Turtles album, right around that time. I have a story, I have interviewed so many people, but the hippies were upset with her because of the fact that the hippies were into drugs, not alcohol.

RS (02:21:00):
She was into Southern Comfort.

SM (02:21:01):
Yeah, she was into Southern Comfort, and a lot of the hippies did not get along with her. She broke a rule. Hippies do not drink alcohol.

RS (02:21:10):
Maybe beer, but that was it.

SM (02:21:12):
Yeah, but they did not like the fact that she was doing that.

RS (02:21:15):
Mind-expanding.

SM (02:21:17):
Yeah. Any other rock groups or single performers that you saw in Wisconsin?

RS (02:21:25):
Country Joe to Jefferson Airplane to the Grateful Dead. So many of the people from that time. I mean, it would be hard to give, but all the usual suspects.

SM (02:21:43):
You know what is interesting, I have one last question here, but I will mention this just for general, it will not be in the interview, but when I was in college, I went to SUNY Binghamton and we had winter break and we had spring break and we had-

RS (02:21:54):
Wild place.

SM (02:21:56):
Yeah. And we had the Paul Butterfield Blues Band all the time performing at the campus center Friday. But we had Judy Collins, we had Arlo Guthrie, we had Odetta, Oscar Peterson, Ella Fitzgerald, Duke Ellington. And then we had Iron Butterfly and the Turtles and the Mountain.

RS (02:22:22):
Sure.

SM (02:22:25):
And the Chambers Brothers. We had all these groups. Love and Spoonful, and even The Birds and Anthony Imperials. I will just never forget all these groups and these concerts when I was a college student. There is no other time.

RS (02:22:45):
There is no other. I can give you a quote that I remember. If you want to use, so be it. Remember how they used to say drugs are for people who cannot handle reality? Our saying was reality was for people who cannot handle drugs.

SM (02:23:00):
That is a great quote. I will use that.

RS (02:23:07):
I did not make it up.

SM (02:23:08):
And do not forget, you are going to see this transcript, so you can scribble some of this stuff out. My last question is this, and I have asked this to everybody. When the best history books are written about any period, it is usually 50 years afterwards. The best World War II books were coming out in the early, well, about 2000, 2001. And so some of the best World War II books are coming out now. What do you think historians and sociologists and commentators will say about the (19)60s or the Boomer generation? I think I am going to say this, Boomer generation, this generation that was born after World War II, and was very young in the (19)60s and the seventies and early eighties. What do you think they will say? What will be the lasting legacy? And I say this knowing that the Boomers are now reaching older age, they still got 15 to 20 years left so they could change old age, but just your thoughts. What do you think they are going to say? Especially after the last Boomer may have passed on?

RS (02:24:10):
Well, that was the flowering of you and potential. So, we did not take anything at face value. So, we questioned authority, and that we can make a difference, and we did.

SM (02:24:27):
That is great. Is there any questions I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?

RS (02:24:37):
About the specific items in my collection, which I do not have to tell you about, but I really thought that is half of what you would do would be about what we had discussed, and half what would be about collecting counterculture member review. But I understand this is a sociology book and not for collectors.

SM (02:24:53):
Yeah. Well, you can tell me more about your collection because I did not know what items you had except some general items. I can ask specific questions like the items you have linked to Ken Kesey or any of the beats.

RS (02:25:09):
I mean, I have highlight, I have to tell you, in all honesty, I am pretty punchy. And not because of you, it is because I thought we would go for an hour and it is two and a half.

SM (02:25:20):
I think that is enough.

RS (02:25:21):
So I thought you said an hour and a half. But no, I am not complaining at all, I am just saying I am starting to wander a little. My mind is not quite as disciplined as when we started. But I think that we did make a difference. So I know we did. And then from now on, no one will take unquestioned the statement from the government to the mainstream media. That you need to think for yourself, draw your own conclusions, do not accept anything at face value without running it through your own mind and deciding whether it makes sense or not. And the motivations for what was said by whoever was saying and why? What are they looking for you to do? Is it in their self-interest or is it in yours?

SM (02:26:06):
Yeah. Using a Paul Krassner line, we just hit the midway point. Yeah, I think Paul would laugh at that. Tell you, fantastic.

RS (02:26:20):
Pleasure speaking to you.

SM (02:26:23):
Yeah, no, Rick, I wish I would come out when I was out to San Francisco. I had not been out there in 10 years.

RS (02:26:27):
You are always welcome to-

SM (02:26:29):
And I might go out again next year and I want to meet Paul and Nancy. I will even drive down if I have to down south just to see him. I want to take their pictures and stuff like that. There is a few other people in LA. But I regret that I had not called you before I went to San Francisco because I met seven people to take their pictures. I met Carolyn Garcia, took her picture. Peter Richardson, who wrote the book on Ramparts Magazine, Jim Quay, former head of the Arts council who lives in the Bay Area, and-

RS (02:27:03):
Wait, girl was sweet.

SM (02:27:05):
Huh?

RS (02:27:06):
Carolyn Cassidy was known during the pranks, it still is, its mountain girl.

SM (02:27:12):
Yes-yes. And then I-

RS (02:27:14):
Very sweet person. Lived in Ballenas for many years, which was another counter cultural, it is on the Pacific Ocean. Incredibly beautiful, very isolated. You have to drive over Mountain [inaudible] here in Marin County to get there.

SM (02:27:31):
I think Charles-

RS (02:27:32):
Go ahead.

SM (02:27:33):
I think Charles wrote a book, something to do with Ballenas Bay too.

RS (02:27:38):
Probably. It is very beautiful, wildlife and all that, but a lot of the, she lived right near there for a long time.

SM (02:27:49):
Wow.

RS (02:27:55):
I really do feel an obligation to preserve as much of this time period as I can.

SM (02:27:57):
I think it is a great thing that you are doing.

RS (02:28:00):
Thank you, Stephen.

SM (02:28:01):
I admire you for doing it and we need more people like you because in the end I think subconsciously you are preserving it, but you are preserving it for others. It is that (19)60s mentality. I know that I have been collecting all my books and all this stuff and I am collecting all these interviews for a reason because I want young people, students, college students and general public, to get a better understanding of the times we lived in and to not have the new Gingrich's of the world and the people condemning an entire era because they do not like the politics or the personalities of the people or the long here. You got to understand the times.

RS (02:28:45):
Cultural warfare, they have a vested interest in the status quo. Just as the seed money, 90 percent of the seed money in the eighties for the partnership with Drug-Free America. You know where that came from? Tobacco companies and the alcohol companies.

SM (02:29:01):
Yep. You are right.

RS (02:29:04):
I wonder why because they did not want any other recreational interest horning in on their market.

SM (02:29:11):
Charles Wright is coming, he is teaching a course at Yale this spring. I found out so I am going to contact the Yale law and hopefully I can get an interview with him. But boy, you cannot even reach him in the Bay Area. He does not even have a website.

RS (02:29:21):
I thought he was in Berkeley.

SM (02:29:21):
Yeah.

RS (02:29:28):
Yeah, I think he is in Berkeley.

SM (02:29:28):
Well, if you ever find out a website for him or an email, let me know because I would like to try to interview him because he did write the Greening of the Merit.

RS (02:29:36):
I can tell you where he did the reading in Berkeley was six months ago at the bookstore.

SM (02:29:40):
Okay.

RS (02:29:42):
It is called Books Incorporated. Fourth Street of Berkeley.

SM (02:29:48):
Fourth Street. Okay, I could give him a call.

RS (02:29:52):
That is where he did his last reading.

SM (02:29:53):
Okay.

RS (02:29:55):
I know you are calling me to write a book and I know this is off the wall, not off the wall, but it is unrelated. I want to get my stuff in display cases somewhere where people can see it, whether it is a library, university, if you could keep me in mind, I am not looking to make any money, that would be nice, but nobody has money to pay for that kind of stuff.

SM (02:30:15):
Well, the connections that I have are only with three. I have left where I used to work, so I am done with them. I have worked there 22 years. But my alma maters, I am Ohio State, Binghamton University, and then Cazenovia, so I do have links with all of them.

RS (02:30:34):
You happen to see an opportunity where I could get my stuff in display cases or on a wall somewhere for an exhibit, I would be very-

SM (02:30:42):
I will, yep.

RS (02:30:44):
Something needs to be seen instead of being in archival boxes in my closet, Stephen.

SM (02:30:49):
Yep. Let me talk to a few people. There might even be a chance that, I am not sure, maybe at Binghamton and Seattle, Ohio State, I was a grad student there. All of my professors are gone, but I do believe there is a professor in the history department there who is a (19)60s guy, and I mean he is younger than a Boomer. Well, he is a young Boomer, but he is not, he was not old enough to be around when all this other stuff was happening. So, there is a good person there at Ohio State, but Binghamton's still the school it was when I was there, back in-

RS (02:31:30):
Let me think. I can tell you one final anecdote before you get off the bus. But that is another quote I should have given you. You are on the bus or you are off the bus.

SM (02:31:41):
Yes. Very good.

RS (02:31:44):
It is true.

SM (02:31:44):
Yeah. Definitely true.

RS (02:31:46):
You are off the bus.

SM (02:31:48):
Well, do you talk to Paul at all?

RS (02:31:52):
You send the emails constantly. I do not talk that much but we said we are in constant contact.

SM (02:31:58):
Good. Yeah. I just sent him a response to his Facebook message about, I thought it was the [inaudible] thing. Tell him I said hi. Tell him and Nancy I said hi.

RS (02:32:09):
He said he is getting off Facebook because there is just 5,000 friends he is never met.

SM (02:32:26):
I think what he is going to do, he is staying on Facebook, but he is going to cut the number down. I think that is what it is.

RS (02:32:26):
Well Saturday he told me he is getting off it, but I do not know. He could change his mind, but I am so happy to speak with you. It is been a pleasure.

SM (02:32:36):
It has been a pleasure here too.

RS (02:32:37):
Wish you a great deal of luck with your book, you are doing such a good thing.

SM (02:32:41):
Well, thank you very much. People like you and Paul and all the people that I have interviewed, I love that year that I grew up in, I obviously you do too. I feel fortunate that I was alive.

RS (02:32:55):
Well, I never left.

SM (02:32:56):
That is good.

RS (02:32:58):
Well, I will let you on the one final thing. Kesey came to the San Francisco area for a book tour. They drove the bus. This was not the original bus, but a new version of the bus from Oregon here. Outside the books in store at Hay Street, I went in, it was Kesey and a few other people, smoked a joint on the bus with Kesey. How about this? Oh, and then he tested a bottle of wine and he says before he drank, "it has lithium in it." Oh no. Hey, it could have been [inaudible 02:33:35]. Anyway, I am not going to regal you with stories, but I have been around as they say, and I have paid my dues and I have counter cultural Street cred.

SM (02:33:49):
Great.

RS (02:33:50):
Thanks Steve.

SM (02:33:50):
Thanks, you have a great day. Happy holidays to you.

RS (02:33:54):
Take care, Steve.

SM (02:33:54):
You bet, bye.

RS (02:33:55):
Bye.

(End of Interview)

2010-12-15

Stephen McKiernan

Rick Synchef

153:58

English

Binghamton University Libraries

audio/mp4

Sound

3 Microcassettes

Audio

Counterculture--United States--20th century; Historians; Synchef, Rick--Interviews

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