Rennie Davis 2

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Rennie Davis
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Lynn Bijou
Date of interview: 7 August 2019
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(Start of Interview)

SM: 00:03
Yeah, I-I got a whole set of questions I am going to ask you. It is going to be about your life and everything. And so, speak right into the- clearly as you can. Thanks, Rennie for doing this, I really appreciate it. I know I interviewed you at Silver Spring a couple of years ago, but I want to do something a little more in depth. Because we, we just touched on a few things then. I would like to first start out, what did your parents do for a living? When, a little background on where you grew up, what your parents did. And talk about your years as a kid through high school, and the kinds of activities you may have been involved in in high school. [silence] Hold on, hold on a second. Hold on a second.

RD: 00:59
Okay.

SM: 01:00
Okay. Go right ahead.

RD: 01:02
So, I was born in Lansing, Michigan, and my father was a professor of economics at Michigan State. [clears throat] And in the, this was 1940. And in 1942, with the war beginning, he moved himself and the family to Washington D.C., it becomes something of a renowned expert in the field of labor productivity. And, how, so there were, you know, lots-lots of-lots of decisions being made by the government, you know, in, in his field. So, he came in as a very, in a fairly prominent position and, and he basically, devolved into becoming the-the, the head of the staff of President Truman's Council of Economic Advisers. -and I, [chuckles] I got really into it, and I, you know, I realized there was a science to it, especially hens that were laying eggs would molt their-their, their-their, their skin with bleach in a particular order. So, you know, the egg would come out of the bed, and the, the bed would bleed first. I mean, by bleach I mean it go from a kind of a yellow color to a whitish color. And then the beak would bleach from the back to the front of the beak at a particular order. And, and then depending on the breed and the type of bird, you-you could predict the, the number of eggs that the that chicken has laid, since it last molted-

SM: 02:08
Wow.

RD: 02:10
He, then bought a farm in Virginia as kind of a weekend retreat. It was about 70 miles west of Washington, down in the Shenandoah, near the Shenandoah River, you know, kind of between the Shenandoah River and the Appalachian Trail is really beautiful place. And when Eisenhower came in, he was considered, a so-called liberal economist and actually got kind of blackballed, really in government for a while, and could not get- you know lost his job, and, you know, could not get another one. And so he-he decided that what he would do is just, move the whole family out to the farm, and-and make a go of it, you know, he himself had been raised at South Hall of Ohio, and, you know, had had kind of, you know, a farming background of sorts, you know. He was a pretty cool guy, really. So, he is, he moved out and he bought the local feed store in the, in the county. And so, suddenly, we, you know, we, we owned the place, that was the hub for all the farmers in the area, I mean, came and got their feet and you know they would come, and talk and tell their stories. I mean, I just loved it, you know, [laughter] I could work so hard and meet these characters. You know, this is rural Virginia.

SM: 03:52
Yes.

RD: 03:52
And it is, it is you know, Berryville, Virginia is where the feed store was. And the farm was about 12 miles from Barrett Ville. [coughs] I mean, our nearest neighbor was a half mile down the road. So, we were, there is a 500-acre farm, and we, you know, we made a goal but we, you know, we had, we had 6000, boiler chickens-

SM: 04:18
Oh my.

RD: 04:19
-every 10, 10 weeks, that, you know, were part of the, of the family income and, you know, I managed that and then I went on to so I was in high school, you know, you know the in our graduating class in high school with 50 people. You know, we, there was a little period where in this tiny high school, won the state football champion, you know, year after year after year.

SM: 04:50
Wow.

RD: 04:50
I mean just- [laughter] just tough little TCS. And so, you know, so I-I basically got recruited by the four H county agents, you know, to join the four H club. You know, I-I-I showcase though, you know, my steer and the competition so forth. But, what drew me in was chicken judging-

SM: 05:29
[laughs] Oh my goodness. -its production cycle. And then I discovered that there was also a relationship. I mean, I had a theory about it, I kept testing it, that there was a relationship between the weight of the chicken and, and the, and the number of eggs that were laid. And so, what I would do is, have a scale, and I picked up a chicken and estimate its weight, and then put it on the scale until I could refine myself to-to predict pretty accurately the weight of a chicken. You know, and I mean, I spent an hours [laughs] practicing this thing. [laughs]

RD: 06:54
So, when I went out to the, my first contest, you know, I won the Clark County chicken contest, you know, so-

SM: 07:03
Wow.

RD: 07:04
-I mean, the first time I was ever in a newspaper, I was holding a chicken-

SM: 07:10
[laughs]

RD: 07:11
-grinning from ear to ear because we just was not counting time, it is a big deal, you know?

SM: 07:16
Yeah, yes. [laughter]

RD: 07:21
The chicken had just pooped on my pants.

SM: 07:23
Oh, no. [laughs]

RD: 07:25
I had no idea. So, I had by embarrassment, you know, when the picture came out, there was [crosstalk]. Funny stories like that, you know, so but then I went on to win the state, Virginia state contests. And then I won the east coast, the whole east coast had a contest I went to, and then I went to the-the international contest in Chicago. So, the first time I went to Chicago was to judge chickens.

SM: 08:02
Wow.

RD: 08:03
And basically, I felt that the judges just did not have my knowledge of chickens. And so, I do not know, I wound up, you know, being ninth or something like that. I mean, I was just humiliated to me, you know-

SM: 08:21
[laughs]

RD: 08:21
-because I fully expected to win the international contest. And then I blamed the judges that they did not know what they were talking about. [laughs]

SM: 08:30
Now, now, in 1968, if you had a break, during the activities, did you go over to that area and see where you had that contest?

RD: 08:41
I did not really do that. [laughter]

SM: 08:42
No nostalgia? [laughs]

RD: 08:43
There was a little too much going on.

SM: 08:47
Yeah. [chuckles]

RD: 08:50
Like there were people who did, you know, articles on my background, who would discover that this was the first time I came to Chicago and so there was some news about us. You know, back in (19)68.

SM: 09:05
[laughs] What was the name? What was the name of your high school?

RD: 09:09
Clark County High School. And yeah, it was then, you know, I, I basically, you know, when I was in Washington, I was a B student, but I came to Clark County, I, I was an A student. I had one B, in I did not know it was [inaudible], you know, some typing or something like that, you know-

SM: 09:37
[laughs]

RD: 09:37
-ninth grade, and I was always upset because I-I got all A's except for that one B. And, and they counted valedictorian was measured based on three years and a semester rather than the full four years. I would have been valedictorian if we could have measured it in 4 years.

SM: 10:01
[laughs]

RD: 10:01
But anyways, three and a half years, so I was salutatorian. I had, I had good grades, I was the president of the student body and I was also the editor of the school newspaper and I belong to various organizations and I played. I was on the varsity basketball team.

SM: 10:24
And were you the guard?

RD: 10:27
I was the guard. Yeah, I we had a barn that I put up a basketball hoop. So, I was able to stand on the very outer edge of the of this barn and, and practice a shot there. It would have been, you know, in basketball terms, it was kind of beyond the key. So, it was a long shot, you know.

SM: 10:52
Right.

RD: 10:53
And I got pretty deadly with that shot. [laughs] Practicing with the bar.

SM: 10:59
[laughs]

RD: 10:59
So that was my only claim to fame really was I could I could nail it from a great distance. And so, it got me all the you know, so I played first string varsity because of that shot.

SM: 11:13
You know, "Pistol Pete" did that Pistol Pete Maravich. He practiced, I think like that. And of course-

RD: 11:18
Oh yeah?

SM: 11:18
-he became a great shooter. And now and when I think of you again, Rennie, I am going to think of you as "Pistol Rennie."[laughter] Okay, now we were after high school, where did you go to college?

RD: 11:34
I went to Oberlin College. And I actually, you know, and I really have no criticism, why bother about this? I think I would probably do the same thing. I won a four-year scholarship, if I would still study animal husbandry at-at VPI over at Virginia State University. So no, my dad wanted me to take the scholarship, you know, obviously, but and, you know, he explained that the president of the Michigan State had graduated in animal husbandry, so it did not limit you in any way, you know. But I do not know, I was just, you know, I did not really know much about overland really, you know, other than I just heard, it was a really fine school. And, you know, turns out that, you know, its graduates, you know, rank the highest in grades, you know, in graduate school. I did not know that at the time. So, when I went to Oberlin, I mean, the first, the first evening, I sat at a table was, there was, you know, 10 people at the table. And I, you know, we started introducing ourselves and, and everybody at the table was a national American dollar, except me. [laughter] And then, the very first grade I got was an English composition, that I got an F.

SM: 13:07
Oh, no.

RD: 13:09
[laughs] I have never gotten anything, but A's, you know. So, I was just lucky. So the first year, I did not really talk to anybody, I just went, you know, I just studied until two in the morning and I went all out studying, you know, so, but the first year it got me back, you know, in, you know, kind of able to hang in there.

SM: 13:31
Right.

RD: 13:31
So, I would say I was a B student, but by the sophomore year in Oberlin College. You know, we, Tom Hayden came to Oak alone and, you know, met with a group of us we had started, we had started a political party, in in tents. I was a sophomore. And the idea was to bring political issues into student government, you know, like civil rights.

SM: 14:03
Oh, yes.

RD: 14:03
And so we were, we were all following what was happening in the south. This was like, the second semester of my sophomore years, this is 1960. So yeah, so basically, with-with a first election, I mean, I was the, you know, the sort of the helpless center of this political party, either what title it was, I guess I was the president of the party or something, I do not know. And so, we-we swept the election, we-we won every seat you know. Suddenly, we-we had real influence in the college, you know, I mean, we-we took on racism in private housing and overload and things like that. And it was, it was really quite remarkable. When Tom came through, you know, he basically you know, he-he and his-his friends were at the University of Michigan and they had done the same thing; they created a political party too, it was the same idea. We had never talked to each other about it, but then they had similar success. But Tom wanted to basically organize something with students, you know, in the, you know, throughout the country and the north, especially-

SM: 15:25
Right.

RD: 15:25
-which was really turned into SDS: Suits for a Democratic Society. So, once after Tom came through, I would say, I was in the movement, basically full time, you know, I never, [chuckles] I mean, I-I would I-I could study and pass tests, you know, that sort of thing. When I, when I graduated, I went to the University of Illinois, and Labor and Industrial Relations, and it was a fairly good school, a lot of Japanese students. And I, you know, I never really, I mean, you know, -II would just study. I-I actually had the highest-grade point average in the history of the university, but it was-

SM: 16:09
Wow.

RD: 16:09
-because I could cram at the end, you know. [laughter] Classes, or did very well. So, anyway, you know, the, you know but the good grades in the University of Illinois gave me quite remarkable scholarship opportunities. And I went into, we all gathered at the University of Michigan, in graduate school, that by we, I mean, kind of the leadership of SDS: Todd Gitlin, Paul Potter, you know, myself, Rob Berlage. I mean, pretty much everybody went to the University of Michigan. And that is where we kind of really formulated, you know, what we were going to try to do for the decades.

SM: 17:01
Is that, is that picture that I se- that is on the web is Tom is on the left, and you are on the right, and there is a whole group of other students in the middle. I know Todd Gatlin to one of them.

RD: 17:13
Right, yeah.

SM: 17:13
And I believe, and I believe Richard Flax is there too.

RD: 17:17
Yeah.

SM: 17:18
And his eventual wife, I forget. And I think she was there. And so, and there are a lot of other ones. Is that the picture the group you are talking about?

RD: 17:28
Well, a lot of them were at the University of Michigan, but that basically was a, SDS conference. Picture that. Yeah, that was in that time. You know, I am not a quite a, you know, want to say poor here on but I am not sure about that. I am not quite I know Clark, Kissinger took that picture. I have seen it too. But anyway, that was that was an SDS conference meeting. That is really what that picture was.

SM: 18:05
Did Tom talk when he when you met him about meeting President Kennedy and a group of students in the library steps at Michigan when he was coming through? They were running for president.

RD: 18:19
I-I heard about that. But I did not come from Tom. I am not sure who has shared that with me. I knew about it, but I did not. I do not think Tom and I ever talked about it.

SM: 18:32
Now, did you form an SDS chapter then at Overland?

RD: 18:38
Not really. I mean, we had the progressive CSL, prudent progressive student league was the name of our campus political party and, and we were affiliated loosely with what SDS people were doing. But I once-once the-the movement, so called movement started, for me, I-I was not really doing much locally at all. I mean, at the University of Illinois, where was a liberal luncheon that was pulled together by Robert Ebert. No, who was a kind of a film critic. I mean, became a film critic.

SM: 19:28
Oh, Roger Ebert. Yes-yes.

RD: 19:30
Yeah. And, we had a similar situation where there was really blatant racism with off-off campus housing. So, the university basically lists these houses were available. Your brand is for students, so they have the support of the university, but they would not allow black people to stay there. And so, we had a, so I, I proposed that we just take the whole university out on strike to stop it, you know. And so, what happened was, I went in and met with the president of the University of Illinois, just myself, and to help told them that, you know, we were going to basically shut the university down over this issue. And it was it, we never had to do anything. They-they were just terrified of us, but you know, but then they changed their policy.

SM: 20:37
What year was this? What year?

RD: 20:40
Oh, my goodness, let us see. So, I graduated from Oberlin of (19)62. So, I guess I would be in (19)63, when that happened.

SM: 20:51
Okay. Now all, there was a lot of things going on, the end of the Vietnam wars, has not become a front-page item by that time. But were you aware of that-

RD: 21:05
Yeah, yeah. Vietnam really became more front page when U.S. troops, you know, actually went into Vietnam. I mean, there was covert activities, and we were aware of it, but it was 1965, when troops actually were sent to Vietnam. That, I mean, it was 16. Four, I was in, we wanted to go into communities, and do community organizing the way this southern snick students were working in the south.

SM: 21:44
Yes, mhm.

RD: 21:44
So, I went, I became the director of a thing called the, "Economic Research and Action Project." And-and basically, we started in the summer of 1964. We started 10 community projects, Tom went to Newark, and I moved into a white Appalachian Community and called uptown-

SM: 22:12
Wow.

RD: 22:12
-Chicago. And there was another white community in Cleveland that we went into. And so, they were the idea was, they were poor communities, and we were going to support them to try to, you know, give them more of a voice, you know, tenants that were, you know, where their buildings were run down, you know, would-would form tenant unions and welfare mothers with for welfare unions. It was, you know, I was there for three years, basically.

SM: 22:49
Wow.

RD: 22:50
And uptown as an organizer, I mean the first night that we were there, the city knew we were there. I mean, we had, I think the first night they were 40 students who were going to join the project. And we were all in one apartment building, you know, sleeping on the floor-

SM: 23:14
[laughs]

RD: 23:14
-the police, the police you know, just basically broke down the door and came in and, you know, had guns drawn and put guns at our head-

SM: 23:26
Oh my god.

RD: 23:27
-and were screaming at us, you know, we-we, I mean we had no idea, we were, everybody was asleep, you know. And so, we were carted off and taken to jail. We had no idea why or what the thing was, you know, and so, we, you know, we-we got out on bail the next morning. And-and the, the Chicago Tribune. You know, the front page was about we were having a beer drug party, and it was broken up by police and we were arrested, you know. So that, that gave me my first reality check on where I was, [laughs] now in Chicago. Yes.

SM: 24:09
My gosh.

RD: 24:09
The way that, Mayor Daley was going to let anybody come in and mess with his city. And, so yeah, we had one other raid you know later where they came in and just broke through the plate glass window, the office and literally, be chickpea chairs. And you know, I mean, it was just, it was just amazing. Really, you know. No one was arrested or heard and that was at the middle of a night. And, we had young people and teenagers who marks on the police against police brutality, which was a very severe issue for, for that, you know age group.

SM: 24:53
Yes.

RD: 24:57
There was tension. I mean, there were, I mean, you know, it was one of those times where, you know, one false move and, you know, you could be dead, you know, I mean, there was police lined, both sides of the street, it was quite, quite on the edge of tension, you know, and risks.

SM: 25:14
This is quite-

RD: 25:15
You know, so there was a lot of a lot of bravery. And you know, it was not organizing that easy. And especially in a white community but, you know, we-we did you know, I mean, welfare mothers, had sit-ins and got, you know, got a voice at the welfare office where grievances could be heard in a more orderly way. I mean, there were there were changes that took place it was, it was rather remarkable. And it was quite a, quite an experience of my life, [chuckles] you know three years and up [inaudible]

SM: 25:46
Wow.

RD: 25:47
But then, the SDS organized the first march, or the first rally against the war in, in Washington, D.C., I did not even go but I mean, I was obviously involved with it. And basically, with that, I realized that the movement was moving on, you know, we, it was time to basically come out of the community and return to a national perspective.

SM: 26:18
Oh yes.

RD: 26:19
It was really with that demonstration in Washington, it was about 25,000 people, that I, you know, started to, you know, I am leaving Chicago and starting to return to [inaudible]. I guess the first thing that happened was the, you know, we-we were making contact with the Vietnamese to learn more about Vietnam, and we were invited to a conference by, organized by the Vietnamese basically, to basically they were, said they wanted to share their, their history and their point of view about the war with a, with a cross section of the American anti-war movement. So, 42, Americans went to Bratislava, Czechoslovakia. And, you know, Martin Luther King was, was going to go was on that delegation, but he had schedule conflict at the last minute and, and did not go, but we, you know, we went and, you know, I mean, we look like the ragtag group, you know, we would have the hardship of crossing the ocean and plane, you know. [chuckles] The Vietnamese were all there waiting, you know, dressed in elegant, formal clothes.

SM: 27:41
[laughs]

RD: 27:42
You know, then there was this beautiful woman who just, you know, was clearly kind of a centerpiece for their group, which we had no idea who she was, but she turned out to be mad. And when she been, and-and she had basically come from, she was at that point, you know, on the Central Committee of the, of the National Liberation Front, was in the south herself. And basically, I would take six months to, of travel to basically come to this conference, Madam Being. And, and so and then it turned out that it was, it was the most prestigious conference of, of Vietnamese, I mean, legislators and high-level people, both in the north and the south. It was the highest-level delegation of Vietnamese since the Geneva Convention in 1954 that ended the war with the French.

SM: 28:40
Wow.

RD: 28:41
It was very impressive, you know, we had no idea that anything like that would happen. And so, so it was very informative and eye opening. And so, they, you know, and they was not too scripted. I mean, they were, struggled some with their English, but-but generally, it was, you know, it was, you know, they were very sincere people, and they, you know, they were moving and touching and, you know [chuckles] so that at the, at the very end of the conference, seven of us were selected by them to come to Hanoi if we wanted to, and that included Tom Hayden and myself.

SM: 29:22
Wow.

RD: 29:23
And so, we made one of the very first trips into Hanoi. And then we were, you know, Hanoi was absolutely off limits from the military point of view, the mill-the Pentagon's position was that it was only bombing steel and concrete, military targets in Vietnam. But every single day, we were in Hanoi, we had to go into bomb shelters, and-and, and bombs would go off in the city of Hanoi-

SM: 29:56
Wow.

RD: 29:57
-and we-we would then get in a car afterwards and drive out and see a whole city block gone.

SM: 30:04
Wow.

RD: 30:04
And so, I mean, Hanoi was definitely being bombed. And-and you know, then we would go into villages where, you know, obviously people were being bombed, especially by cluster bomb units, which really is anti-personnel weapons. So, by this point, I-I was pretty steamed up, you know, and so I-I came back on the day, what-what happened was that organizations like SDS, were doing things against the war, but there was no coalition, kind of similar to today. There is no real permanent coalition that makes the teaching planning possible. It just or you know, just sort of spontaneously, if something's going on in the media, and social media picks up on it, you know, you can get a pretty good turnout on something but you cannot hold it together afterwards. So, we, got a cup from 1965 with the SDS, anti-war gathering, we-we organized a coalition. And by 1967, we had 150 national organizations in a coalition, called the "National Mobilization Committee Against the War in Vietnam." And, we put on our first demonstration in October of 1967. And that was the-the day that I returned from Hanoi. So, I was obviously a key speaker. My talk was carried live on television, my dad, at this point, my dad had, been hired by the, by the government, he was back in good graces, I guess, to become the Secretary of Labor. In a kind of a, I do not know whether to call it a shadow government. It was it was the government that if there was nuclear war, could function, somehow. And so, you know, he was the Secretary of Labor in that government, and they basically what they did was they just made constant plans of every scenario. And his task was how labor could be utilized under different kinds of conditions. And they, there was a very hard rock on the mountain where our farm was. At the top of the mountain, they converted that into a government installation, called Mount Weather. And, and basically, my dad worked at Mountain Weather. And so, when I was going into, when I was in Bratislava, and when invited to Hanoi, I, we were on a party line. You know, our phone number was one, seven, four, J, one, two, that was our phone number at the farm. So, it meant that, if you heard one long ring and two short rings, that meant we should pick up. That was our- one long ring two short rings was our-our heart, our signal, you know, the whole neighborhood would pick up too, probably 14 people on the party line.

SM: 33:32
[laughs]

RD: 33:34
So, so I knew it was not a good idea to call my dad from Bratislava to tell him I am staying in Hanoi.

SM: 33:41
[laughs]

RD: 33:42
So, I just figured I would tell him when I got back. But, he was when I was, in Laos getting ready to board an ICC plane into Hanoi, the, I mean, they had one of the most advanced security operations in the U.S. government at Mount Weather. So, a group of people came to my father's office and said, "Are you aware that your son is about to go into Hanoi?" He-he was in shock, you know, there was no way that was possible. And so, when then he sees me on television, you know, coming back from Hanoi, and so there was a little period where my dad and I were at odds. [laughs] We were very close family, and it did not last long. [inaudible]

SM: 34:31
[laughs] Right. Rennie, what was the year when the first conference happened that when the 40 some people went to Hanoi, what year was that?

Unnamed speaker: 34:42
That was, October 1967.

SM: 34:46
And then you went a second time, correct?

RD: 34:50
Yeah. And then I went again in (19)69 because the Vietnamese decided to do a peace gesture, by releasing prisoners of war. And they had an historic, policy because they have been at war for so long, I mean, with different countries and everything. And essentially, the concept was that when they were at war, they were not at, their war with a government of that country, but they were not at war with the people. And so, they recognize, the people of the country as legitimate spokesmen, not the government, and who, and whatever group emerges as most broadly representing the peace sentiment of the population, then comes the official representative of-of, to them of who they will recognize. And so, our coalition was, you know, obviously, the largest coalition, anti-war coalition, in the United States. And I at this point, I was the coordinator of that coalition.

SM: 36:01
Wow.

RD: 36:01
And so, and it done Chicago. So, I, to them, I was the official representative of the American people. So, they would only release the prisoners to me, personally, if I came.

SM: 36:15
Wow.

RD: 36:16
So that was quite heavy. [laughs] You know it was like, oh okay. We went before the judge, obviously, you know, we were in, we were about to go into a trial of this point. And-and, I mean, I was just astounded. The State Department sent out a high-level person from Washington to represent me before the judge that this was in the national interest that I go. And, and Judge Hoffman, our judge turned it down, that pointing out that the U.S. and Vietnam, North Vietnam did not have an extradition treaty, so I could go and never come back. And so, he-he denied my right to go to Hanoi pick up P.O.W [prisoners of war].

SM: 37:01
And that is-

RD: 37:02
And so, they-they, I mean, they would just appeal it, you know, in 45 minutes, it was reversed on appeal. But it was still quite a quite a statement about what was about to happen with the trial, you know, I-then I went to Hanoi and pick up the P.O.W.'s and we had about a two-week, trip. And, so I wanted to go to the, the Panhandle region because between the (19)90s and the (19)70 parallel, this is still in North Vietnam. I knew that I mean, I have heard anyway, that more bombs were dropped in this tiny little section of the world then were dropped in all a WWII and Korea combined. And I just could not imagine what that place must be like and no one has seen it, and no westerner had gone into the Panhandle. And so, you know, I pleaded with the Vietnamese let me make a trip to the Panhandle. They were, it was very difficult because that was you know, was not open bombing at that time, but it was still dangerous. And, but they-they agreed to do it and so off we went into the Panhandle and you know, I came to a city a city like being V-I-N-H at about 100,000 people and it-it really you know, in in pictures of WWII- dressed in the Hamburg-

SM: 38:46
Oh yes.

RD: 38:46
-I mean, you know, kind of collapse buildings, but you know, you still see maybe, a bit of a wall sticking up you know, there was, there was a sense that there was a city there. But in Being, there was no -I mean it was more likely the surface of the Moon, I mean, it was just it was literally just crater, upon crater, upon crater. There was no structures, nothing, nothing was left and yet everywhere you looked it looked like people were just, going on about their life. And-and, and-and nobody I mean, like they missed the war or something. I mean, it was just bizarre. And so, I went into an underground tunnel. I mean, really deep into the Earth, and sat in chair. We, our delegation sat in chairs, and they put on a-a Vietnamese cultural performance for us in the, in the Panhandle. That was basically, I mean it really beautiful man. They were dressed in traditional Vietnamese costumes and everything. And, the songs were essentially about how, you know, Vietnam was I mean, it was just celebrating Vietnam and that peace would come and that they would endure, you know, just an inspiring song for people that are in the midst of, you know, hell on wheels, to-to feel that they would survive. And-and it would appear that, you know, most of them actually really did, but even in the midst of that kind of bombardment. It was truly spectacular-

SM: 40:23
Wow.

RD: 40:23
-was one of them, the [inaudible]. I mean, I was, I mean, even today, I am just amazed that, that actually existed, you know, but it was really impressive to see it.

SM: 40:35
During all these times, after you left Oberlin and the graduate school, and getting involved with SDS and getting in and having all these experiences and going to Vietnam and getting involved with Tom and other major activists, did you ever think I am that chicken farmer kid back in-

RD: 40:57
[laughs]

SM: 40:58
-back in Virginia, and look where I am now? Never expect-. You know, it is like, it is life has amazing directions we all go in. But this is an amazing story when you think about it.

RD: 41:10
Yeah, you know, I-I do not know if I dwelled that way. But I-I was aware of myself, you know. I mean, in though, in high school, my idea of a student movement was the four H club. So, it was quite a transition to go from high school, and this little rural community where I mean, I-I was, I-I was truly a farmer. I mean, you know, I mean, I was the one that did the chores [inaudible], you know. Milk cows and have sheep and-and tended to the animals before go on the hike, before going to classes. And then I would, and school was 12 miles away. And then I would come home and do the chores in the evening. So, I mean, it was a, it was work. And you know, it was a different world. But, yeah, so just an all-American boy, who, you know, turned into a revolution, or I guess.

SM: 42:09
Who were some of the other people that came on that first delegation?

RD: 42:14
Oh, let us see Vivian Rothstein, Carol, shoot. I am going to- yeah, I-I had to look up everybody's name, I would, mess it up. I think, it is actually in the, in my book. I think I list all-

SM: 42:33
Okay.

RD: 42:34
-the people who have read it, if you want to look it up.

SM: 42:36
Was Daniel Berrigan with the group?

RD: 42:39
No, he was not.

SM: 42:41
I know, he went he went on a trip to Vietnam as well.

RD: 42:44
Yeah. Both of those trips, you know, were organized by our, our team of people. Dave Dellinger, Tom was involved, you know, I was involved in, you know, once we made that that first 1967 trip and you know, we became the conduits for, for other delegations, to-to go, including Jane Fonda when she went.

SM: 43:13
Right.

RD: 43:14
Uh, yeah.

SM: 43:17
Were you going on to college campuses and speaking during this time period as well?

RD: 43:23
Yeah. So, yeah, yes, I was, you know, I-I did a fair amount of speaking during the SDA-SDS days. And then, and then in the coalition, I became the coordinator of the anti-war coalition after the Pentagon demonstration in October 1967. And, I actually learned about, you know, so the plan was to go to Chicago. And, I was convinced that we could bring a half million people to Chicago, and I prepared for a half million people, actually learn about the Democratic Party's decision to have their convention in Chicago. So, the Democrats, you know, Lyndon Johnson was the president. He was the one, you know, commanding the-the orchestration of the war in Vietnam. So, the responsibility really, at that stage was with the Democratic Party, and we were in a bomb shelter in Hanoi. And it was, you know, it was, there were not lights in there so it was completely dark and so the Vietnamese were trying to, I do not know I would not say entertain us but you know, have something to do while we waited for the bombing raid to end, and you could hear bombs go off I mean, in the bomb shelter and feel the vibration and the ground. But they, you know, they had flashlights. And so, they had a wire service, AP wire service. And they were just reading the news from the U.S. to basically, I do not know, you know, keep us preoccupied again. And then they read that the Democratic Party had decided to, to go to Chicago. And then everybody got all excited, said "Oh, you are from Chicago-

SM: 45:32
[laughs]

RD: 45:32
-oh, the Democrats are going to yours." And I did not really say anything at that time. But inside myself, I realized that was going to be in Boston at this event. I was from Chicago, and I, you know, and I was the coordinator of the coalition, so here we go. So yeah, so I kind of knew, I was starting to prepare myself in the life where what was going to happen Chicago, and I, I really felt that at that point, there was no opposition to-to Lyndon Johnson. And it does not, you know, this would be for McCarthy or any, any anti-war candidate. So, we just thought that there would be a rank and file walk out of Democrat to join our demonstration in Chicago. And so, I-I, you know, really, that I was preparing for a half million people, then basically the mayor of Chicago, you know, announced that he was not going to grant permits. The, Ramsey Clark was, you know, my, my dad knew Ramsey Clark, who was the attorney general under Lyndon Johnson. And so, he helped facilitate, communication between me and-and, and Ramsey Clark's office, I-I basically want to know if the, if the federal government supported Mayor Daley's position to not grant permits. And they clearly did not, they knew that was, I mean, to have riots in Chicago at their convention was the last thing in the world they wanted. So, they sent out Roy Wilkins, who was really, oh, you know, right hand, man, you know, a very high-level executive in the Justice Department representing Ramsey Clark, to meet with me. And we are both little skeptical about each other, you know, we, but we spent time together and I-I saw that he was a very cool guy, I liked him, actually. And I trusted him. And he, you know, he came to feel the same way about me. You know, he has had interviews since then, about how, you know, he really was won over by who, who I was and what I was trying to do. And so, he went to Mayor Daley on his own to basically make the case that, that he had to grant permits. And just so, soon as he mentioned my name, Daley, just I mean, his whole face turned beet red. [laughs] He went, he was just fuming, you know, he was so, you know, he knew me from before when I was a community organizer, you know, so I, you know, I do not know if I was the representative when it came. But he, you know, he really realized that that is why he shared this with me later that they were, they were just not, you know, Mayor Daley was not going to grab permits, that was just the way it was. Even then we did not know how bad it would be. But yeah, we had a real decision to make whether or not to call it off. Because, you know, go, you know, I knew enough about Chicago to know that, to go and have a demonstration without permits, was-was could be lethal. I mean, you know, people could lose their life. I have you know, I had no idea that it would be, as extreme as it turned out to be but, you know, I realized that, you know, we would have to now prepare for I mean, the-the main organizational focus for me in Chicago was marshals because I wanted the ability to have communication with whoever did come in the streets, at night, you know, and so we needed thousands of marshals with a particular type, of I mean, a really true organization, the ability you know, just to, for me to say something and reach every single person on the street running through the crowds or anything, I wanted to have that ability. And then the other thing was, medics. Including medical doctors as well as health practitioners, who are steeped in steer gas and, bandages and, you know, just I mean in in case anybody got injured. And so, we, I do not know what the numbers were, but probably over a thousand medics-

SM: 50:19
Wow.

RD: 50:19
-and way over a thousand marshals were involved. I mean, to give you an idea when, at the very last minute, that mayor, did grant a permit for Grant Park to basically have the, you know, that permits were granted kind of thing. So, I decided to take it so that people who, you know, adults, so to speak, could safely come, you know, and so, we had, you know, pretty good turnout at Grant Par. This was, yeah, I do not know, you know, we were, you know, it was a daytime thing. And, you know, it was beautiful a day and suddenly, a young person, a teenager, went to the flagpole and lowered the flag to half-mast. For him, it was like showing a sign of international distress. But the police just came in and to make, to arrest him, you know, and they just clubbed people as they came in and, and they rested him and then they pulled back down. And so, I mean, I am trying to give an example of our marshals are, you know, I had a marshal line go up where people locked arms, they face the police away from the crowd, but we formed the human stent around our own group, which were I mean, they were, they were throwing things and screaming and you know, just beside themselves, and, and that marshal line went up, like, boom, boom, boom, yeah, it was, it was like a military precision. [laughs] That-that completely calmed our own group down. I mean, we took total control of that situation. And then I was on a bullhorn, and basically said, you know, we, we have our legal permit, and if you would, you know, kindly pull back, you know, we can continue our rally here. And, and this-this the sight of me on a bullhorn with that kind of, you know, does the superintendent or the assistant superintendent of Police, order the police to charge again, and it was just phenomenal, really, I mean, I had a bodyguard, who was a jujitsu master, who had his leg broken in that assault-

SM: 52:50
Oh my gosh.

RD: 52:50
I was hit on the head. And, you know, I-I, it was, I-I was conscious, and kind of trying to crawl along the ground. But you know, I was just being hit on the back.

SM: 53:03
Wow.

RD: 53:03
And I-I really thought that I was going to - this was going to be it for me, you know, I might not make this, you know, there was a little chain linked fence, in the park that actually seemed to save my life. I-I was able to come to that chain linked fence, and just for two seconds, get under that fence and stand up and get into the crowd. Where I was in, you know, escorted away from the violence. And, you know, into a place, now I passed out and [laughs] came back. And-and so, then then I was taken to the hospital, because I mean, I-I wound up getting 30 stitches. And this is one of the most amazing things ever. I mean, yeah, we were obviously, you know, in the, I mean, that Chicago was just riveted on what was happening. And so, I am, I am sort of, you know, the police were just hysterical about wanting to arrest me, you know, I mean, I have been beaten to a pulp, and, and but I had not been arrested. So that was not good. So, they, they decided that I must be at the hospital. So, they decided to do a room by room search, of every room in the hospital to arrest me. And, I mean, to this day, I still find this amazing. I, there was a group of, of staff, people, nurses and people that worked at the hospital, but they I mean, these were career employees, who you know, would have lost their job and who knows what else to know if they had been, they had me on a little cart and covered me with a sheet and basically just, you know, hid me and moved me away from the police until like, I got to an exit, and then they you know, and then I got up. I mean, I-I had a pressure bandage around me that made me look like, a WWII poster child or something, you know, it is like - but you know, but I got out, I got out of the hospital because of the staff, and, you know, got to a friend's house that night. And you know, then I watched the night of the nomination, was just, you know, very bloody in front of Conrad Hilton.

SM: 55:23
Yes.

RD: 55:23
I watched like everybody else on television.

SM: 55:26
Randy, were there two [crosstalk] were there two events happening, the-the event that you organized, and were the Hippies organizing a separate event?

RD: 55:36
Well, the Hippies were a part of our coalition. So, but they were prominent, because they were sort of outrageous and funny, and, you know, they made fun of Mayor Daley and so forth. And I-I kind of normally would have wanted to keep that a little more tucked in. But, but given the circumstances, you know, especially with Abby [last name], he brought a sense of levity and humor. I mean, he could take a group of reporters in a, you know, crowded into a room, that, you know, were basically I mean, the city was in a state of preparing for siege, and, and everybody was uptight and tense. And, you know, here was, here was as one of the spokesmen for the event. And so, the press are just, you know, pounding him with questions. You know, they were serious [inaudible]. And he could literally just turn the whole audience into outright laughter. And it was just amazing to see it, you know, he would do this again and again, I found that to be, given the circumstances to be really pretty refreshing and helpful. So, Abby, and I actually, we were, we were close together, we, you know, I, in the beginning, I moved our whole operation in the Linkin Park, which is where the hippies were camping out. And, you know, we, you know, he appreciated my organizational ability, because they did not have that, you know, the marshals and the things that we could do. And, and I appreciate it. It is, it is levity, you know, Allen Ginsberg was there, you know, chanting ohms, and anything that calm people down was good to me, you know.

SM: 57:30
How did-how did, you know before the Trump- before the trial started, and all this melee that was going on, how did they pick eight people?

RD: 57:40
Well, it was clearly a decision to-to you know, I mean, some-some of them were logical, obviously, myself, they fell on chair. Tom Hayden, you know, and Abby and Jerry too. But, you know, the-the John Freud's and Lee Weiner were not instrumental in the, in the demonstration. I mean, they were there. But, what they were-were they were university professors who are against the war. And it just felt like it was more of a political trial, to warn, university professors hand off the antiwar movement. Bobby Seale, literally. I mean, what I had invited Eldridge Cleaver to speak in Chicago, and at the last minute, he could not come. And Bobby, you know, so they Alvarez made the decision to invite Bobby to replace them. I did not even know that, you know, so Bobby, just a rocket, you know. So, Bobby came and made two speeches, that is all he did. And then left. So, you know, he had nothing to do with Chicago at all, you know. And, and but, you know, he was the chairman and founder of the Black Panther Party, and so he put him in. So, it was more like, you know, what would work from the government point of view to kind of, say, these are the leaders that we want to really go after, and especially with Bobby Seale. You know, it was, you know, tying in all white people's fear of black people, especially, you know, [chuckles] black people like the Black Panther Party, you know, so I, you know, it just felt like it was more of a political decision than anything else from the Justice Department.

SM: 59:36
There was a point where they, they had to tie him up and became the Chicago seven. Do you remember the day that happened?

RD: 59:46
I do not remember the day. You know, it was pretty far into the trial, although the beginnings of it started right at the beginning. What happened was that, Charles Gary was Bobby Steele's attorney and Charles Gary had a gallbladder crisis and had to go into surgery just before the trial. So, he went before the judge and asked for a continuance. You know, in Chicago, you can get a continuance for a parking ticket, you know, I mean, here though, the-the New York Times has already called, calling the trial before he even starts the most significant political trial in American history. And, and so Gary just, you know, wants a continuance of the trial, so he can have his surgery and come back. So, the judge turns, turns down the defense request, is the judge actually turned out every single motion of the defense over five and a half months trial, now even requests to go for a bathroom break - anything that defense did was denied by the judge. So, so Bobby, basically came in and, you know, did not have a lawyer and decided himself that he would defend himself. And so, and the judge insists that he could not do that, that Bill Kunstler, who is our lawyer, at with Bobby was picked up in California, and-and, and escorted across the country, which took six days of travel. And it was like he was just kidnapped, and no one knew where he was. And so, when he appeared in Cook County Jail, you know, everyone was relieved, but everybody wants to know, he was okay. And so, Bill Cussler was the only lawyer available. So, he-he, he signed in to Bobby to basically go and just to visit him to make sure he was, you know, okay, you know. And so, the judge used that to say that he had a lawyer Bill Kunstler, who was a lawyer record. And Bill Kunstler, you know, indicated the whole story and that he was not his lawyer, and that he only did that for one purpose only, which was to make sure he had not been brutalized on his trip across the country by police. So anyway, that is set up the contest. So, when somebody would mention Bobby's name, as you know, on the on the witness, you know, someone would be-be a witness to in the trial called by the governments and mentioned Bobby's name, Bobby would then stand up to cross examine the witness [laughs], you know. And the judge would just freak out-

SM: 1:02:44
[laughs]

RD: 1:02:44
-and ordered the marshals which were in a line, the whole outer walls of the courtroom, they-they all look like, you know, Chicago, Cleveland, linebackers.

SM: 1:02:56
[laughs]

RD: 1:02:56
I mean, they were pretty big, burly guys. [chuckles] They would come and they would, you know, push Bobby back into his chair, and it just kept escalating and getting stronger and stronger, you know, and-and, and sometimes, you know, rather than, you know, I mean, we-we would get involved sometimes to try to, you know, form a, a ring around Bobby's chairs, because it was it was physical, and the jury was in the room. I mean, they were might be being hustled out, but they would see, you know, Bobby being, you know, manhandled in the trial, you know. So, and this went on and just kept building and getting stronger. And then one day, Bobby was not, did not come out and we were all waiting. And then suddenly, he comes out and he was being carried by four marshals, it who and they he was chained to, he was tied down to a chair, and he has got a pressure bandage around his mouth. And, you-you know, they bring him out, instead of at the, at the, at the conference table on the defense side, you know, in front of the jury, and basically the judges explaining that this is a necessary step to keep him from talking in the courtroom and bobbing you know, then you know, they call out to his, his, his bandage. And you can you know, he is a little garbled, but you can hear it. And so, the-the days go on like this, where basically Bobby, the band aids around Bobby just gets you know, more and more brutal and tighter and tighter. And-and he is, he is, his arms are so tight to his chair that it-it stops the circulation of blood in his arm. And so, you know, the lawyers are pointing him out, they got cruel and unusual punishment and so they-they loosen the thing and then his arm will fly up, as they loosen the strap, you know, then the marshals think he is attacking somebody and they come in and they start beating him. Right. And I mean, the jury is still in the room or leaving the room. I just, it just becomes unbelievable. And so, this, this image there, it is there is an artist's rendition is what it is because there is no photography allowed in the courtroom at that time. And so, there is this picture of Bobby sealed, chained and gagged as a, as an artist's rendition, you know, goes out to Africa, China, you know, all of Asia, Europe, you know, South America, the United States. I mean, it is a symbol of the world. I mean, here is a black man who is chained and gagged, because he cannot, you know, get a lawyer of his choice in an American courtroom-

SM: 1:05:54
Once you-

RD: 1:05:55
-become the icon of the whole trial really, you know.

SM: 1:05:59
What-

RD: 1:06:00
So, it is, it is- yep, go ahead.

SM: 1:06:02
Yeah. What did you think of Judge Hoffman, I, and also the other seven, when they were, allowed to speak? Did he get animated? Did he have his problems with others or? You know, did he have problems with all of you? Did he treat any of you with respect? You know, I just-just, you know, just-just thoughts about that. And how long was the trial and the whole thing? It is historic.

RD: 1:06:28
Yeah. Well, the judge, you know, at-at first, we were a little shocked by the, the prejudice of the judge. You know, later on, we learned that he had a reputation in Chicago with other attorneys as just being really difficult judge, belligerent, you know, he was, he was recommended to be removed from the, from-from you know, playing the role of judge by, by the lawyers in in Chicago in that district. But somehow, he survived and kept on doing it. And now he would, you know, at lunchtime, he would have two or three martinis and he would come back and slur his words and he was just a little bit you know-

SM: 1:07:17
[chuckles]

RD: 1:07:17
-but you know, he-he, he just loathes us I mean, then he was, you know, he would miss pronounce people's names, Dilinger with Dilinger not Gallanger. And, you know, Wineglass, you know, who was an attorney, was wild man as, you know he would just, he would come up with these amazing names for everybody. And so, first, we were, you know, I little, I was a little amazed by it. I had seen it because I, you know, going to, I mean, this is, you know, I am about to bring American prisoners of war home. I mean, this is, the ultimate thing to do for the country. And yeah, he turned that down. Because, you know, he hates us so much. You know, I mean, so I had that early preview. But I quickly and everybody else too, you know, saw that, that the judge was actually our greatest asset in the trial, that he was so extreme and so prejudicial, that he actually, this became a part of the color of the whole thing. And, you know, and his, his last name was Hoffman and so then you have Abbie Hoffman, and so-

SM: 1:08:40
Yes.

RD: 1:08:40
-Abby was the illegitimate son of the judge, you know-

SM: 1:08:44
[laughs]

RD: 1:08:44
-of his story, but you know, I mean, we just made fun of it. And we, I mean, literally, we would sit around the table, and all kind of stamp our feet at the same time, like we had to go pee really, really bad. You know, and then the, and then Bill [last name], our attorney would stand up, and you know, and do this really humorous thing about, you know, nature calls and everything-

SM: 1:09:11
[laughs]

RD: 1:09:11
-and, you know, be very respectful and wonder if it might be possible that we could just take five-minute break now, and, and so the offenders could actually relieve themselves, you know. [laughter] And we would know, doing this that absolutely, it would be turned down.

SM: 1:09:32
[laughs] Oh my goodness.

RD: 1:09:34
That is-you know, we, we would do this just to basically make the point, you know, and so, so Judge Hoffman. I mean, the, this was kind of before reality TV, we became reality TV to especially not only, but certainly for the country, but especially for college students. I mean, I would go on to a college campus because of the time change between Chicago and the East coast, we get out at four, and, what was it? Four or four thirty, I forget, and then, you know, rush to the airport. And, by the time you got to, you know, Boston or New York or something like that, and got in a car and, you know, got to the place, you know, I mean, it was, it was nine o'clock, before you even started. And, you know, as you would, as, as people knew you were in the building, they would start to stamp their feet. And I, just greet [laughs] you know what I mean, a small turnout for me was five thousand people. And when the governor would call out the National Guard, because I was thinking that I would be, you know, that was 50 to 100,000 people, you were in the stadium. I mean, it was just phenomenal. And-and if I, I spoke with Abby, for example, you know, 25,000 people and an auditor, you know- an armory of some kind.

SM: 1:11:09
Wow.

RD: 1:11:12
It was really phenomenal, really. And, what will always amaze me was the, amount of knowledge that pretty much everybody had about the trial. And while my focus was stories of Vietnam, and what was happening in Vietnam, you know, we-we always started by just talking about what happened today, in the trial and it was like, it was just like reality TV, [laughs] everybody just hung on every single development that was going on. And that people would come to the trial. I mean, they would hitchhike across the country, and then, in get in line, like its eight at night, and then, you know, this is in, in the wintertime in Chicago.

SM: 1:12:00
Oh my god.

RD: 1:12:01
So, it was super cold, things, sleeping bags, and warm clothes, and they would camp out in the hope that they might actually be able to get into the trial itself.

SM: 1:12:12
How many could get in?

RD: 1:12:15
Oh, I do not, you know, was not that big? Really? I do not know how to say, I would probably, maybe, I do not know, you know, maybe 60 or 70 people, something like that. Yeah-yeah.

SM: 1:12:32
You know, what was interesting also is, now were you all in prison when this happened? You had to come to you or are were you in, away from the courthouse every day that you came?

RD: 1:12:46
Yeah, no, we were granted bail, which was amazing. Everybody except Bobby. Bobby was not, Bobby, you know, was way pending trial in Connecticut on murder. You know so you have, you have been charged with murder in Connecticut. And he was going to, Bobby did not get bail. Just to not let that hang. What happened was that there was a, a black panther person in, in, in the Connecticut in the New Haven chapter of the Black Panther Party was killed. And they basically, said that Bobby Seale ordered the murder. And so, Bobby was facing murder charges. And so, after the trial, after Bobby was severed from the trial, but you know, he has chained and gagged, and it got so intense that the judge finally just gave up and basically severed him from the trial with the idea that he would be retried again on his own. And so, Bobby then was sent to Connecticut to face murder charges. Now, Gary had finished his operation, and was back being his lawyer. And Gary and his team put together the evidence that actually was a federal government, undercover agent who had infiltrated the Black Panther Party, who had killed a member of the Black Panther Party-

SM: 1:14:27
Wow.

RD: 1:14:28
-and that agent went to jail for murder. That Bobby was free and clear, after all, the whole thing you know, it was really phenomenal piece of legal work, really.

SM: 1:14:41
Randy, could-could you state exactly what the charges were against the right cause the people that will be hearing your voice will not know, they will know about the trial, but the reasons why you were put on trial and what was the reason, the final verdict of the trial?

RD: 1:14:57
Yeah-yeah. So, when Martin Luther King was assassinated, the black community, you know, went up in rage in about 100 cities. And, the Republicans wanted to blame what was going on, on the leaders of the, of the civil rights and the movement in general. And so, they, a, a representative from representative Kramer from Florida, proposed a piece of legislation that made it a crime to use interstate facilities, which meant cross a state line with holding the intention, which was determined by what you said, or what you wrote, to incite a riot. And a riot was defined as assembly of three or more people, one of whom violated or threatened to violate a law. And there was no timeframe. So, in other words, you could come in and make a speech. And then a year later, three people standing on a street corner with clenched fists, you know, could be tied into your speech a year ago, and you could now be facing a felony for having the intention to incite that riot. So I mean, it was just the most egregious legislation probably in the history of America, in, in terms of free speech and civil rights, that you could imagine, on the opening day of our trial, one of the most impressive things was the, the number of extremely conservative constitutional attorneys who showed up on the opening day of the trial in protest of the, of the, of this law. And so, we were charged with violating the statute itself, crossing the state line with the intent to incite a riot. And we were also charged with conspiracy to incite a riot. So that meant that with a two count, we faced a maximum sentence of 10 years. Each one had five years. So, we would [silence] - cut off my thought there. [crosstalk] I would say that we were, that when the jury ended, the jury was basically divided pretty-pretty much along the same lines as the country as a whole, some, some people on the jury thought we were heroes, and some people thought we should be locked up and the key thrown away. So, the jury was deadlocked as a result. And when they said to the judge, they were deadlocked, unable to come to opinion, the jury had been sequestered for five and a half months. So, they had not seen their family. And the judge told them that, the government has spent so much money and so much time in this trial that they really could not deadlock, they have to make a decision. It was one of the items that reversed the decision in the appellate court. But it caused the jurors to believe that if they want to ever see their family, again, they had to come to a, a resolution of some kind. And so, all they knew to do was to compromise. And so, they found us guilty of the subsequent charge and innocent of the conspiracy. And so that meant that we face five years in jail, while the jury deliberated, we were we met with a judge who gave us contempt of court citations. I received an additional two and a half years of contempt of court, almost all of which was generated when I was on the witness stand. [laughs] So the you know, it was pretty hysterical and in the appellate court, most of us were amended, I mean in an appellate court, the, the substantive charge was thrown out. And which meant that the Justice Department could go back and try it again. But they had had enough of it. I mean, they were just beside themselves with, I mean what had happened with- mobilized the whole country. And so, they just decided not to go forward with it, on the, on the contempt of court, Bill Kunstler actually was found in contempt of court and, you know, he had received four years. This is our lawyer [laughter] four years of contempt of court, as the lawyer for the, for this incredible trial. You know he was, one of the most distinguished lawyers in the United States, and you know, he was, he was really, a beautiful lawyer, I would tell you that. So, but you know, technically, you know, he had said some things that were out of order. And so, they, stuck-stuck to what the law says about contempt of court. I was, all of my things were dismissed on the appellate court. So, so what that meant was that Bill had something on his record that, you know, he was cited for contempt of court, but then the judge, basically removed all punishments. He was not, he did not go to jail. He did not have anything else. But it was on his record as having contempt the court. I think he saw it as a badge of honor. You know, you did not really get deterred by it at all. So, nobody really, you know, went to jail from the Chicago. You know, we were first started, the Chicago eight, when Bobby Seale was, was severed from the trial, the media calls and says Chicago seven. That sort of is what stuck historically, the Chicago seven is just the name that media basically gives the defendants were all the Chicago eight, but the country calls us the Chicago seven.

SM: 1:21:12
[laughs] Rennie when you think of that year 1968, and not just, going through that trial, being there and having that experience at the convention. Can you describe the year 1968 in all of its totality? We all know about the deaths of Bobby and Martin Luther King, Jr.

RD: 1:22:08
Yeah.

SM: 1:22:09
And certainly, [crosstalk] and then also, you know, Jean McCarthy kind of disappeared from the scene after Bobby dies. So, just-just your thoughts about, in 1968. And you know, that song that Chicago did, "The Whole World is Watching."

RD: 1:22:24
Right.

SM: 1:22:25
Every time I hear that and see that, you know, it was about the Chicago convention.

Unnamed speaker: 1:22:31
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, it was a, kind of a time like no other, to be honest, maybe the present time that we were going to be seeing, you know, in the very near future here, you know, we will have, you know, will maybe be a return somewhat to the-the enormity of the protests. You know, you had Martin Luther King was assassinated in April of 1968. And, this was the, the convention in Chicago was in August of 1968. So, you can imagine, I mean, the country was just reeling from that assassination. It was just unbelievable, really, I mean it was just, I mean, yeah, you had riots in the black communities and probably other cities. But the, the mood in the country was so, I mean, it was just depressing, really, and overwhelming. It is, it is it is just, it is hard to explain it. I mean, he was just such an icon. And, you know, he was in our coalition, and, and he was a personal friend of mine. I first met him when I was a community organizer in Chicago, and he came to Chicago for an open housing march, and he was speaking at a, at a Baptist church and, in south Chicago and I decided to go and I, I wound up going through the men's room, and I was sitting at the urinal and, and he comes in, Martin Luther King comes in and just goes to the urinal next to me, and-and basically, you know, that is how we met, at the urinal. And it was really, it was really beautiful. I was explaining to him that, that we were, he was bathing and ready to do a march into Cicero, which was this white working class, really bigoted community. And I, told them that I was going to assist in bringing 1000 people from, who had migrated from Kentucky, West Virginia, Alabama, Mississippi, you know [chuckles] white people to his march and he just thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard.

SM: 1:24:58
[laughs]

RD: 1:25:00
I do not think so, you know, and he said, so we-we, we had just a bunch of humor there, at the urinals, you know, I could explain it, you know, I would basically tell him to get ready to have your hair blown back-

SM: 1:25:13
[laughs]

RD: 1:25:13
-you know, his hair was real short. [laughs] Anyway, it was cool. You know, we, we were we were friends and he was in our coalition. He really was. Back at, in Chicago after he had been assassinated, he was the, it is was called the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. They had a project called "The Poor People's Campaign." And on the night of the nomination, which was Wednesday, August 28, 1968. The, he had the poor people's march came down to pass the Conrad Hilton, where many of the delegates were saying, you know, I mean, I am talking about a mule train with-with an asphalt tent and no cards, you know, people riding in the mule train, and, you know, it was, you know, and the and the mules and the people in the car, were-were gassed and clubbed. And, you know, right on, I mean, national television, I mean to give me an idea of more people watched the clubbing of the mule train. And on the night of the nomination of, you know, of Hubert Humphrey, then watch the first man landing on the moon. To give you an idea of the of the television audience that was just riveted to what was going on in Chicago. So then, basically, you know, then the, I guess the good news was that Jean McCarthy, a senator decided to run for president and oppose Lyndon Johnson. And he did not win. The first primary in those days was New Hampshire. He did not win New Hampshire, but he came in around 42 percent of the vote and, that was staggering. I mean, nobody expected that, and he was running strictly as an antiwar candidate. And so suddenly, the, everything changed. I mean, now there was a possibility of a candidate who could win the presidency as an antiwar candidate, and that reality caused Bobby Kennedy decide to enter the race. And so, then Bobby Kennedy suddenly appeared to be like the likely candidate for the Democratic Party. You know, he went to California, you won the California primary. And then that night, when he would had just won the primary, he was assassinated. And so, now you have got two icons in the country, you know, murdered-

SM: 1:26:18
Wow. Right.

RD: 1:27:43
-you know, for their position. I mean, it was just, I, you know, uh, you know, maybe just saying, that is all a person needs to understand. You could really imagine for yourself how incredibly impactful that was on social consciousness and the public in general. I mean, one of the most moving things of Mashable was, was the procession from New York, to, to Washington, D.C. by train to carry-

SM: 1:28:31
Right.

RD: 1:28:32
-Bobby Kennedy's coffin. You know, I mean, people just lined, the entire track, you know, from New York to Washington, with signs and it was very moving, it was really touched the country but it was also extremely depressing. So, this was just the background of everything that was building up to Chicago. In, in that summer, the trial itself began in, September of 1969. And then it went for five and a half months into January, exceed nine or 70. And then, and that basically, the Nixon, who basically kind of won on the idea that he was going to, end the war or, you know, look, you know, reduce the troops in the war, I mean, he basically tried to take an antiwar position himself, you know, one of the first things he did was to basically expand the war by invading Cambodia, and that is just set off. Students across the United States to Chicago seven actually call for a nationwide student strike. You know, I do not know the exact numbers but I would say close to 90 percent of every university and college in the United States closed down there. In response to that strike, and you know, you think about it, I mean, students today, it, you know, think about your whole school going out on strike, you know, a political issue, you know, I mean, some, some of the schools would say, "No, well that could not happen here," you know, but go-go check your own records. [crosstalk] The chances are pretty good that the very university or college that you are in, actually did close down on, in the spring of 1970. It was a phenomenal thing, and then, you know, then you had, you know, songs coming out that went right to number one. On the bestselling list, you know, that were basically explaining what was happening, you know, in Chicago and the students strike. I mean, I mean, the whole culture, just totally galvanized around the student movement and the antiwar movement. It was, it was one of the most impactful things ever to happen. I mean, the idea that there could be an antiwar movement in the United States is, was unheard of, but much less the fact. I mean, here, here is a statistic, that is interesting, Gallup Poll comes out and polls the country as to whether they support the war in Vietnam or not, two weeks before the Chicago demonstration. And a majority of the United States population supports the war in Vietnam, two weeks before Chicago. Two weeks after Chicago, the same Gallup Poll does another poll, and a majority of the country now oppose the war in Vietnam-

SM: 1:30:23
Right. Wow.

RD: 1:31:47
-shifted the entire country, you know, it was really remarkable.

SM: 1:31:51
Rennie, how many more years after, say, 1969, after the tribe, were you involved as an activist? I know, I want you to at least mention your major involvement with a moratorium I believe in 1969. And, going into the (19)70s, but at what point did your activism end? And, and, and also make a comment on when you thought that 1960s ended. But- basically-

RD: 1:32:21
Okay.

SM: 1:32:22
-your, your, your rest of your activism.

RD: 1:32:27
So, I would say, one of the things that we discovered which climate change will, is kind of in this category two, people really do not understand, even on college campuses, the, that the consequences of how humanity lives on the planet, are-are going to be sweeping into our own lives in the very near future. We are going to basically, everybody is going to be affected. And yes, you still have people that want to deny the science, but that is about to change. So, one, one of the things that we I mean, it is the same thing with Vietnam. I mean, we-we knew how horrific the war was. But, we did not understand that. I mean, you know, when there is a war, you support your country and a war. And so, we had the, you know, we had the same issue ourselves, we, how do we, how do we bring people along to understand the facts of the war, you know, so we had something called a teach in. And there were lots of them. And it just went on and on and on. And, you know, having been to Vietnam myself, made me a favorite speaker, because I could tell stories about real people and, you know, weapons that were used, that were perhaps develop by the University, where I am speaking and what these weapons did, how they were conceived, the, their antipersonnel nature and things like that. So, the movement, so to speak, culminated in the moratorium where basically just, you know, it was just activities, but largely around educating ourselves about the issues and the war in Vietnam. And so, by that time, we had really won over most students in, in the country by 1969. Then basically comes to the students' strike, which was pretty breathtaking. I mean, we had American G.I.'s who were our age in Vietnam, deserted their posts in Vietnam. If you tried to organize a military parade, anywhere in the United States. In the spring of 1970, you-you really was virtually impossible to do that, because of the opposition of G.I., not-not antiwar students now, the G.I.'s themselves would block the parades and I mean, threatened mutiny, and that was inside the United States, it was just unheard of that you could get such opposition of the ranks of the military it, itself. So, but what happened was that it was such a blowout of them that, at that is, in the summer of-of 1970, there was just a sense that what more can we do? I mean, there was not a, you know, we-we were very steeped in nonviolence. And there was no, I mean, there was there were some that would say, let us just revolt, you know, but, but that was not the position of the movement or the coalition. So, it was just sort of a letdown. So, in the, in the fall of, of 1970, you could, you know, you call a meeting of SDS or the antiwar movement, and kind of nobody showed up. It just, it just feels the energy just went out, people were depressed, but what more can we do? In the meantime, I was reading reports from French scientists and Vietnamese scientists that there was a genetic mutation that was occurring, that would potentially could, could annihilate the Vietnamese. I mean, it was it was, it was, you know, we-we actually see it today and thousands and thousands of people who are born deformed, or, you know, cannot breathe or, you know, their, their head is misshaped, you know, because of the, of the chemicals that were used in Vietnam. I mean, it was just, you know, and we did not know how severe was going to be. I mean, it turned out to be pretty severe. So, I felt like what we had to do was not calm down, but to actually increase the pressure, and that it was time to move towards large scale nonviolent civil disobedience in Washington. So, I went to the coalition in the fall of 19, I guess 1970 and made the proposition that we should do a mass mobilization with large scale civil disobedience in Washington, D.C., and the concept was that we would actually close the government down nonviolently, you know, if there if the government in the United States does not stop the war in Vietnam, then we will stop the government of the United States. That was that was the message, you know. Well, it was not the coalition had a problem with civil disobedience if done appropriately. But, no one believed it was possible. So it was just, you know, so there was a sense that the movement was over, right, then, you know, going into the (19)70s, you know, the fall of 1970, I would say, the, I mean, even Time magazine came out with a cover story called " The Cooling of America." And it was just the sense that things were over. So, I did not really know, but I did not buy it. And so, I decided on my own to go test the waters. So, I think my first stop was Syracuse University. And, you know, the-the, the organizers that sponsored me to speak there, were, you know, were pretty depressed, really, they-they did not think there would be much of a turnout. But, you know, everybody was still there. And everybody was curious about what was happening. And so, I walked into an auditorium there 5000 people in the room. And so, I-I just laid out the whole picture of what was happening in Vietnam and, and, you know, this genetic damage that was occurring and, and-and you know, ended with the government does not stop the war we will stop the government, you know, and it was, it was really, it was rather remarkable when you could hear a pin drop [inaudible]. At the end, it was just, it was, you know, I do not know, you know, people were just beside themselves, you know, everyone is on fire, you know, standing, cheering, screaming, standing up, [inaudible]. It was, and so right then I knew it was possible to do it. And so, I knew take a little while so I just went on the road and started speaking every day, sometimes twice a day. And, eventually the coalition figured it out what was happening. And they, you know, they, they joined forces, in the end, but I-I had a woman that, you know, donate some money. And I had a neighbor, a neighbor, a neighbor across the street, he was kind of a cop unite. I basically got in office, and they answered phones, and you know, I just kind of did it on my own for a little while, the coalition finally came together and stepped in and brought their capacity to the table. And I just continued to speak on the opening day of our event, there was three main events. This was now the spring of 1971. There were 250,000 people at the Capitol. And hope so we you know, and then basically, over 1000 Vietnam veterans turn their-their badges and their certificates of military service, you know, back to Congress, you know, and-and incredible protests of-of veterans. And then from there-

SM: 1:39:35
Wow.

Unnamed speaker: 1:39:44
Are we good? I have a coaching call. [inaudible]

RD: 1:41:11
Oh, I could go out, hold on, Steven I am going to move my location.

SM: 1:41:33
Okay, thank you.

RD: 1:41:38
Yeah. So, the second part was the Vietnam Veterans part. And then they came the time when everybody who was ready to be arrested, assembled, and I, I set out to speak, and, I mean, [chuckles] oh, my God, it-it really, I really found myself pretty speechless. I mean, there were 100,000 people ready to be arrested. And this was, we call it the May Day, you know, that. It is, you know, turned into the largest arrests in American history, our, you know, our logistics, we were so excited that we could not, no one could sleep. So, we got out of the roads and bridges, you know, I mean, you did not follow protocol. Everybody got out there too early. And, so there were lots of residents moving us out of the city and stuff like that. And, we were criticized because we did not close the government doubt, you know, too much, a little bit. But, you know, it had a huge impact on the country. And, you know, the whole military of the country would mobilize them, the entire east coast. Marines landed, you know, on the Washington ball. There was a Washington Post reporter who felt that this part of history kind of slipped away. And so, you just completed a book on all the, you know, I have not seen the book. So, I do not know how it will be but, you know he seemed like a legitimate recorder. In trying to, what really happened with May Day, you know, it was really pretty spectacular. A lot of historians know that it was really what caused Nixon to kind of give it up and at least go in and sign the Paris Peace Accords, you know, in 1973.

SM: 1:43:38
Right.

RD: 1:43:39
So, so I am trying to answer your question when did the movement stop, you know. It, it sorts of, it sorts of looked like it stopped after the student strike. Then we revised ourselves and came back with May Day, and so it was still going now, though, really over. There was no question about it now. But then at that point, I was, I was watching television and I saw John and Yoko in a, hotel bedroom, you know, declaring themselves to be you know, sit in a bed in for peace or something. You know, as I listened to John talk, I realized that this guy wants to be one of us. You know, I mean, he was really laying it out. And so, so once it was too long before I found myself in his apartment in lower Manhattan, and, as we got acquainted, I decided to make a proposal to him which was, let us tour the country the two of us, I will bring the speakers you bring the musicians, we will go to 42 cities and end up at the Republican convention in San Diego with a million people. And absolutely bring us word when asked. And he said, "I am in, let us do it." Like, beach love to that. There was a laugh. There was a last hurrah. [laughs] You know what happened was we went to Ann Arbor aa=s our first place. We had a venue, I do not know, 20 or 25,000 people indoors. Tickets sold out in 45 minutes, so I thought that was a good sign. We had a guest entertainer that even, even John did not know was coming. His name was Stevie Wonder.

SM: 1:45:51
Wow.

RD: 1:45:51
We had, got he was focused, each-each, each venue was going to focus on a particular issue. And so, the first issue was political prisoners in the United States, as John Sinclair, who was a friend of mine, was in jail, he went to an art party. And somebody, a woman asked him, though, if he had a marijuana joint, so he rolled one, and she wanted another one. And so, he, he gave her two joints to take it out. And it turned out, she was an undercover police agent. And so, the long and short of it was he, he went to jail was in prison for 10 years for two marijuana joints. And so, he became our first focus. So, that we yeah, so I got John on the phone from prison, talking into the arena, to you know, 25,000 screaming people. And it was a very moving story. I mean, you know, he really cared about his wife and his two children. And it was very touching emotional thing. I spoke after John spoke on the phone. And so, I do not know, it was probably a little bit over the top for me, but I, I basically proposed a civil disobedience is dead in Detroit, it was - we closed down the city of Detroit. [laughs] If John was not released from prison in two weeks. [laughter]

SM: 1:47:36
I interviewed, I interviewed John.

RD: 1:47:39
Oh, good. Okay.

SM: 1:47:40
I interviewed him about-

RD: 1:47:41
Anyway. So, you know, so the thing happened is that he-he was with me with that, and he never went back either. It was really rather after having been denied three appeals, the-the threat of what we I mean, we were still in a very formidable however, that was the last straw for the Nixon administration. And so, they basically started deportation proceedings against John Lennon. And, and at that point, John basically just got surrounded by lawyers and, you know, went into a legal fight to stay in the country. So that, that to me was the-the official, kind of culmination of the, you know of the movement right there.

SM: 1:47:46
-continue.

RD: 1:47:51
Now, [crosstalk] did you finish your concerts of the 42 cities? No, I would say we did the first one. And then John was yanked out by the, by the justice. So, we never we never did our tour. I mean we did the first one but that was it.

SM: 1:48:59
You know, it is interesting. You are commenting about the same timeframe. It is some of the people I interviewed, interviewed out on the West Coast, thought that the end of the (19)60s came when people started going to the communes, you know, the whole communal movement and everything-

RD: 1:49:15
Right, yeah.

SM: 1:49:16
-dropping out and, and then, and then the radicalization of the weathermen and how they kind of start doing violence and SDS basically ended. So, a lot of things were happening around that particular timeframe.

RD: 1:49:33
Yeah, you know, I would be I would be inclined to have a little more precision about it. You know, I would say the, the weathermen event really started in after Chicago, more into 1969 but it-it quickly went underground and it-it did not really get-get much traction fortunately, you know, I felt it was a, you know, it was really a, I mean, that would be the quickest way to end a large public movement, to basically to start to move towards violence, you know, you are going to lose just about everybody, you know, with that. So, I do not think the weathermen, you know, there was a deterioration of things, that is for sure. The weathermen was a part of it. I went to the second Nixon inauguration, in (19)72 in Florida, and, you know, things were really kind of over at that point. I mean, we had like 10,000 people turnouts, I decided to do a 42-day water fast, to kind of bring a moral quality to it, you know. And it, it ended in a tear gas battle. It, you know, I do not know, you know, so things were, I think, you know, when I think of a movement, I think the ability to generate large public events where people come together, but you know, after that, you know, so for me, the last, that event was with John Lennon, you know, in Ann Arbor after that, there were certain things that went on, and there was a transition. You know, a lot a lot. I mean, I would put myself in this category, there were people that were, you know, things were winding down. And there was a sense of moving into, you know, communes is one expression, meditation was another, I mean, the Beatles, quite some time ago, went off to learn a meditation in India, transcendental meditation. When the Paris Peace Accords, were signed in 1973, I, I was invited by Madame Bing to be a part of that ceremony. And so, I decided to go and so I flew to Paris, and on the plane was a former roommate of mine who was married into the Eli Lilly family, so he had funds. And he was on his way to India. So, he offered to basically, you know, pay my way, and-and why do not we go and explain what he was going to do. He was going to go see spiritual snafus. And that I know, it sounded good to me, you know [chuckles] I thought the war was [inaudible] I did not know what, that is what I thought at the time. So, you know, and then I wound up, you know, learning a meditation there, that where I had, you know, kind of a powerful internal experience, which was completely unexpected. And so, spent some time you know, in in that world, and, you know, meditation, communes, were moving into nature and, you know, learning a lot, a lot of issues about sustainability. You know, farming and that sort of thing. And, I mean, there was, there was definitely a trend, a very slow boat back to society, that that culminated in quiet time, meditation for some people, communes for quite a few people. You know, it was all a transition back to society in a way, you know. [chuckles] So however you want to look at it, I, you know, the movement with the ability to generate large public events, I think, ended in Ann Arbor, but there was certainly a long transition, you know, back to so called society that went on for a couple of years really after that.

SM: 1:54:10
What, what did you become linked to a religious leader at one time? I think you did, did not you?

RD: 1:54:16
Well, that was, that was what happened to me, I mean it was a little bizarre, really, I did not see myself as having any interest in a guru. But there was this teacher in India that we visited, and we went to several ashrams and the one that I visited, there were all these people that knew me, who were doing this meditation, it was total, the, the, the argument was, you should try it and then and then decide, you know, you get your own evidence [inaudible], ad so, so I decided, okay, well, I will try it, you know, the one of the, one of the techniques was to create light in yourself, in your body and your, you know, you see it kind of in your skull. But for me, it was like my, you know, it was it was not like I am the only one pascal talked about this experience. Walt Whitman had this experience, or you know, there you see it in history, there is a, there is a place where, you know, a light goes on inside yourself, and it is hard to defend it or say what it is, but it is very altering. I mean it, it gets your attention, that is for sure. And so that is, that happened to me. And so, I kind of bought into a bit of a religion, I would say, for a short period of time, you know, I-I felt drawn to continue the meditation. And the teacher wanted to do an event at the, at the astro- Astrodome in Houston. And so, he asked me to organize that event. [chuckles] And so, the lobby that gave me some letters associated with their whole room, you know. We filled the Astrodome though with it. And, and I spoke at that event myself, before. But I do not know, it did not, it did not last that long. You know, I mean, I kind of, you know, I am, I am still an internal person today, and I-I have a lot of, you know, my own understandings about it, but I-I would not, you know, I would not be a teacher myself or follow a teacher, you know, I mean, it just, it was, it was a different world for me. So, but there was a period that shows up in my resume now. [laughs] [crosstalk] For a while, you know.

SM: 1:57:04
Yeah, were you? Were you - where did you get a lot of criticism, this really a national activist leader, going kind of dropping out, so to speak? Did you get criticism?

RD: 1:57:07
I-I Yeah, I-I did. You know, it was difficult. I mean, like, right now, people who are critical then, that they all are, they all have no problem at all with meditation, yoga, you know, I mean, it is, it is sort of but, but I was so associated with the political side of, of making change, you know, through a movement that, I mean, even Tom Hayden, who is my dearest friend, you know, just, I mean, he was just so perplexed.

SM: 1:57:56
Yes.

RD: 1:57:56
It was a little bit like Eldridge Cleaver, I mean you know, it was like a key person of Black Panther Party, suddenly, suddenly became a Christian. It was like, what, it just, it just shocked people to the core, you know, like, "How can this be," you know.

SM: 1:58:08
[laughs] [laughs]

RD: 1:58:16
I am not saying that, you know, I was a Christian. I was not but, you know, I guess there was a parallel there, you know, you know, to step from politics and a movement leader into anything has to do with quiet, spiritual reflection, you know, like, "What are you talking about?" You know, but, essentially, it was a quiet revolution at the end of the (19)60s. And if you look today, the number of there are many, many, I mean, many people, it has gone pretty mainstream. Really, I mean, just, you know, the self-help. You know, be, be here now, you know. Quantum thinking, you know, let us not be so brain shatter and let, it knowingness, come in, you know things like that, you know, it is not so unconventional. I mean, the (19)60s really led to supporting that kind of thinking, and-and it is a broad-based thing, it is a little more quiet, but it is still a broad based thing that actually does exist today.

SM: 1:58:59
Right. You know what is interesting. I had a poster hanging on my wall. I was at Ohio State. It was a Peter Max poster, it was kind of like the artist of the (19)60s. And I will never forget the slogan. The slogan was, "If you, you do your thing and I will do mine if by chance we get should come together that will be beautiful," [laughs]

RD: 1:59:45
Right. [chuckles]

SM: 1:59:49
And I, now I regret saying goodbye to that poster many years back. If you had anything to do over again, Rennie, what would you change if anything?

RD: 2:00:03
Change, I do not know that I would say, really all that much. I do not really have a lot of, I mean, even, even though as the grim arise thing, with the meditation. I mean, it is, it is certainly not who I am today. And, and there is, there is things that I did in the (19)60s that I am not today, but that for me, personally, I feel like everything, led me to today. And I like where I am today, I really am, you know, I feel there is, there is a profoundness in the world that that has to do with my own awareness of myself. And I am, I am not, I am happy with my understanding, even though I am still so immature and early stage in terms of where it can go. But I am, I am learning to quiet the brain and access the mind. And I think that is actually going to be the great transition for the future of humanity, the mind is not the same as the brain. Contrary to popular opinion, I mean, the brain is located in the skull, but there is an electrical field that comes off of the skin organ, that is where the mind is located. And being, learning how to access the mind, gives you a, a tool that is just pretty breathtaking. Really, I mean, you can you get to see every single component in an issue, that does it takes everything into account in the way of the brain cannot begin to imagine. And, and it is, it is just, it is just a different way of being. And so, the (19)60s into kind of this transition, the what I call the, "Quiet Revolution" like communes, the meditations, that is whatever, you know, as for me, kind of brought me you know, into being in the world, being practical about things. I mean, I had a successful business career, I then, I, I visited the Grand Canyon, in in the middle of the 1990s. For a little five-day tour, I fell in love with the canyon, and I wound up basically living in the bottom of the Grand Canyon for close to four years.

SM: 2:02:43
Wow.

RD: 2:02:44
I would come out to get supplies and things like that. But, you know, I-I learned I do not know if you have ever tried to do this, but it is, you know, if you if you basically are quiet, and do not talk to anybody, you are just by yourself in nature for say 12 days. For real, you know, it is a pretty life changing event-

SM: 2:03:10
Wow.

RD: 2:03:10
-to do something like that, over years, you know, months at a time without talking to anybody you know, in nature is, though, it really changes a lot, you know, so I have had that experience too. And it is, it is, it is probably the richest thing I have ever done really, you know, it has given me abilities that are, you know, I-I have discovered I have 14 senses not five. I have sonar, I have radar, I have, you know, telepathic abilities, you know, every human being has it, but it is just not something we have, we have developed. And so, so, you know, right now I feel more alive and more. I do not know, you know, I just feel I feel good where I am. And I feel like everything I have ever done has brought me to this moment. So, I, I do not really feel critical of anything in my life.

SM: 2:04:13
You are evolving. You are always evolving and, your business career. Just a few words. What was that business career all about?

RD: 2:04:22
Well, we it was a, service series of good fortunes, really, we, you know, we did not I mean, my dad was an economist, and I, you know, I studied economics and I had some sense of finance, I guess, you know, so we just, you know, I would partner up with a person who and we had a team of people and we were, we were pretty confident, we learned fast. And we were able to start as consultants and to [inaudible] why we are a little miniature Booz Allen, meaning a full service, management consulting company, we-we kind of just put up our, our single was we, we will do anything. And then we would spend, stay up all night and learn a subject when we, if got us, got into science, so it was kind of like that. I headed up a financial planning component in the company. We also had the Human Resources executive search, you know, we had Mobil Oil, and we were the finest executive search term i their corporate experience. And I was the financial planner for the board of directors of Gates Rubber Company, the president of Manville Corporation, president of HBO, you know, People and the Forbes 400 Riches. You know, I had quite a prestigious clientele, we wound up acquiring 80 acres stayed in Evergreen, that, you know, the main home with golden stone on a cliff. You know, we had our own helicopter, you know- -we were successful, you know, in business. And, then then basically, we had a, we were trying to form a national securities company, and take technologies that we were acquiring through inventors, and take them into a public company. And, the- are-are investor, was basically was closing a deal with Texaco, which was triple A rated, and no one knew that Texaco was about to go chapter 11. Because of a loss, with Pennzoil, so it kind of came out of nowhere, and suddenly, we lost our investor, and we had borrowed money on the estate, to make an initial move, you know, and so we were, we were thrown into chapter 11, for three years. And, you know we, we organize 2 public companies, while a chapter 11 kind of dug herself out, got people whole, pretty much. And, and then basically, I, it was then that I decided to take some time out and go to the Grand Canyon. So, then I just dropped out. I mean, I did not, I really left this [inaudible] went into a quiet space. So, I do not know what to say the business was a rich experience. But I mean, I learned a lot about business. We were so called successful for 10 years. [laughs]

SM: 2:06:09
Wow. Wow that is good.

RD: 2:07:48
Another, another life experience that [inaudible].

SM: 2:07:51
Yeah, I know. It leads into a question, what are the, what are your greatest accomplishments in life? What are you most proud of?

RD: 2:08:01
Well, I am certainly, pleased with what I did in the (19)60s. You know, I-I do not see myself as drawn to being a public personality, or, you know, that, that part of it just, you know, helped me do what I wanted to do, you know, what I wanted to do, honestly, was, was to make the world a better place, and civil rights was the first leg of that and, and ending the war in Vietnam was, was the second. And so, it was, it was gratifying to see an entire generation mobilize around, you know, a principal position, you know, and really, actually make a difference. I mean, there was lots of ways to criticize what happened and how we fell short and whatever. But, you know, to be in the middle of something like that it was a phenomenon really, one of the rarest moments in, in American history. I mean, movements have happened before. And, but they were rare. And but when-

SM: 2:09:12
Wow.

RD: 2:09:12
-they happen they are, I mean the Renaissance change, the feudal order, and the (19)60s, really had a big impact on things. So, you know, I was, I am pleased to be, to have been a part, part of that. I would say now I am, I am curious about how the human race can survive and have a future at all. I think that climate change issue is far more severe than, than people that are in climate change really understand. It, I am, I am all for human beings rising to the occasion and try to change the outcome but you know I, I have such an understanding of it that, I do not really I do not really think that is what is going to happen, I do not think we are going to change the outcome, I think we are going to basically go through a chase, like, just unimaginable, what is about to happen. Whether it be any human being at all on the planet, will would be a more, you know, a clear question, I think.

SM: 2:09:55
I agree.

RD: 2:10:01
And I think it is possible with evolution. And, and that is, that is what I am interested in. It is not, it is not easy, you know, to change your awareness. I do not know, if you have ever tried to change anything in yourself. It is very formidable to do it. But you know, what I have been doing is creating, a more simple way to take a, a body of understanding new to the world and make it available to people who want to do it. You know, I mean, take something like check egos, we could all say, "Yeah, let us, let us check egos in the human race." But the fact is, that there is not a psychologist, or a psychiatrist, or a scientist, or anybody that I am aware of, that can even tell you what an ego is, or how many we have, or where they are located, or how to find them because they hide, or how to edit in ego, I mean, actually do it, you know. And so, what I have been able to do is to, answer that question in detail. And then create a system, where a group of people where a person could do it, and, and have tools for how to do it. So, we have a little system where basically you, you pick a card for the day. And there is a one page write up on that card, and then you take the understanding on the write up into your day. And it is, and there is lots of practices that go with it, all of which are new to the world, and no one has ever heard of any of them. And we, we work with small groups of people. And we just watch people change right before our eyes. I mean, it is certainly not overnight. It is really, people are doing it. And so, I feel like, at the end of the day, that will probably be my own legacy, not what I did in the (19)60s at all. But actually, how could the human race have its future by changing itself?

SM: 2:12:37
That is excellent, because that leads right into the next question, which is, if down the road long after you and I, and all of our peers are long gone. What would you hope people would say about you, Rennie?

RD: 2:12:52
Yeah, well, I do not really have any personal identity that I need to be remembered I am, I am not really quite there. But, I would love to see the human race, step into a deeper understanding of how the world works. So, I would say that here is what humanity thinks. It works right now, the world outside myself is real, it is solid. And it is certainly independent of myself. I mean, everybody knows bad things happen for no reason at all. And if one thing does not get me something else will. And-and, and so there is that that is kind of how we see the world. The way I see the world, which I am confident is actually the physics of our reality, not a philosophy or anything, you know, a belief system, but actually, the way it works is a world as a hall of mirrors, reflecting back to each person their own thoughts and perceptions. And that no one is doing anything to you. No one has ever done anything to you, everything that you are experiencing, including poor me, victim, you know, martyr, everything that is going down has its origin and about 50,000 thoughts across your own brain every 24 hours. And so, the, the, the world is a reflection of how you see yourself. So, learning how to, how the world actually works, and the need to point the finger and blame anybody for your own conditions. You can take create your own reality within the larger reality. You can walk out of the prison of the entire human condition. You, you could take back your life with a note how, but it is not a note how that is found in any tradition or any New Age practice or any religion or anything that presently exists, something completely new to human understanding is required to change your, to fundamentally evolve. But it is, it is still part of our-our makeup. I mean, it is what I am talking about is actually found in our genetics, though the uncovering of the genetics is one of the great, great discoveries of all time, they, you know, we want we want to know, I mean, did the price story really happen as described in the Bible or Mohammed story, or the Buddhist story, or all these perfect masters or, or any story, you know it does not have to be religion, anything at all, every single claim that is ever happened is recorded in our own genetics down to the tiniest detail, and learning, to understand the great treasure trove inside ourselves is, is just is the ultimate liberation for the human race. If you know, it, just it is a complete, you know, I call it a new [inaudible], but it is a, this transformed everything to do this. And so, what I am hoping to do is to leave a legacy of how to do this. You know, before I go.

SM: 2:16:27
Well, that is beautifully said Rennie, and I remember I had a conversation with Tom Hayden, when he came to Westchester University several years ago. And he met with students, he met with student leaders, and Tom asked them, "Do you really have power in your student leadership positions," and they said, "Oh, yes, we do. We control the budgets, we control how much each organization gets, we get pointed on certain committees." And I saw, and I looked over at Tom and Tom was eyes were rolling.

RD: 2:16:58
[laughs]

SM: 2:17:01
That is not power. And when he did not, he did not any finally, and these were the leaders of student government. And he said, "I am not talking about power. I am talking about empowerment, have you ever heard of it?" [laughs] And he went into a long oration about the fact that the students of the (19)60s, the people like you and others who got involved in activities to make this world better for others, were empowered to do it. And, your thoughts on the difference between power and empowerment? Because Tom knew exactly what they were and those students that he tried to communicate with did not.

RD: 2:17:44
Yeah, no, I am, I am with that I really am, I would say that. You know, in my language, I would say awareness is when I am interested in you know, evolution to me is a, is a, is a transition to various stages, the first stage is to wake up, human beings came from a material that had no awareness at all, and we have woken up, we, we are awake. And after we wake up, we then go into aware, and then after aware, we can become conscious after conscious intelligence. And after intelligence, supreme intelligence, so you could call that whole thing empowerment if you would like. Human beings on average, everywhere in the world, I would put it about 5 to 6 percent awake right now. So, the bullet I am working with are, are beginning to get up around 75 percent awake, and that gives them a window into aware, I mean an unaware person, you know, if some, if you were aware, and somebody kicked, just walked by you and they had a certain outward demeanor, you-you would know inside yourself, all of those internal belief systems of that person that has created their external behavior. I mean it is just a participant nominal, you know, you would have not 5 senses, but 14 senses would be activated, including sonar in the hair follicles of the ear, radar in the forehead. There is a sensory perception in your hair, there is airborne, hormones that come up with a skin that connect with other people all the way around the world. If you want anywhere you put your direction, massive data can flow back and forth between those circuits. This, this is the future of humanity. This is where we are going, if we survive, you know, so anyway, you know, I am more interested in creating a system that could help people stepped into a completely new world of understanding where they no matter even if they are surrounded by fear and a stereo. They are, they are still in their beauty they, they can create their own reality unaffected by the stereo of the world.

SM: 2:20:46
I only got a few more questions. And then we done I just have a question here, just a general one. But in your definition, what is a leader?

RD: 2:20:53
[chuckles] Well, in my definition, a leader is someone who could listen, leader is, is someone who walks or talk. A leader is not someone who berates, who, who creates fear, who basically, you know, is-is self-absorbed, in-in their own egos. I mean, that is sort of how leaders are defined today, for the most part, but-but leadership might not ever even be seen, you know, it just I know, people who are leaders who-who are completely unknown, but when they walk into a room, they just exude a beauty. And, and their-their, the way they respect. And-and, and the way they, what they, what they send off of themselves, feels nourishing to anybody around them. And so, so my, my view of leadership is this, so much in the current base of condition, but more in a future state that I call the new humanity. There is a, another stage of awareness, where leadership, which is inspiration, the ability to listen, you know, so the leader would basically go where they are invited not where they feel like, you know, this person is not doing it right and I need to fix them, you know. The leader understands that the only law in this reality is the law of free will. Everyone has the right to choose their own journey to evolve or not, there is no right or wrong. And so, a leader really has moved from the stage of judgment, "I am right, you are wrong," to the stage of unconditional respect.

SM: 2:23:07
It is wonderful, Rennie, that is beautiful. I think I am, I am going to challenge you on one thing you said and that is, that-that you do not care if the world knows about you years from now? Well, I do. And that is- -what the that is what these interviews are about. And I am making sure that this university that I am getting bound in here protects these interviews and gives them the respect they deserve. Because the people that I picked to be interviewed, are very important to me. And they are very important, I think, to future generations. And so, at the point, the point of doing this, that is, you should have, and I am going to my last question is going to be this. And it just kind of maybe a convoluted a roundabout way, but the Age of Aquarius, which we all know, that fifth-dimension song, the fifth-dimension song, with so much hope, so much possibility that the spirit of those times ends in failure. And if so, why? We still have war, we still have hate, we still see massive divisions between our races and different political groups ongoing historic hatred between countries and people. War is never ending. It is just history repeating itself over and over and over again. And why, for one brief moment, the 1960s and (19)70s there was a chance to correct this course, but like all times did we fail? Your response.

RD: 2:23:24
[laughs] Yeah, no, I do not think there was a failure. I think I am a bit metaphysical on movements. You know, there is I-I have a view of people existing before they are born, and you a, a group of people coming into the world, to pick on a certain mission at a particular time, I view the Renaissance, as, you know, the feudal order was pretty brutal time. And, and then the Renaissance appeared, out seemingly out of nowhere. And it rewrote, you know, the possibilities for, you know, 1000 years. I mean, it really had a big impact the human race, the American Revolution was similar. People came in to do that experiment. And, yeah, it was, it failed and went off in many areas, and so forth. But the fact is, is that it-it did create something for a while. And the (19)60s certainly in my view, falls into that category too; a group of people came in with-with a mission. Now we are in the present time and I see the same thing occurring. The half the world's population today is 25 years of age or younger. And so, there is there, there are a group of people that, right now that are going to rise to the occasion apply to climate change. And, and the other interrelated issues that are threatening life on the Earth, they actually can see the condition that they are in, they-they know that our oceans are dying, or rainforests are in peril, humanity has exceeded its global limit on the planet, they were not in the delusion that, that this can just go on and on and on, there is no end to it, it never stops. You know, that is just not where it is, is Arnold Toynbee has talked about this extensively, you know, how he studied civilizations that collapse, and every single one of them believes everything is fine, right to the end. It is always that way, but there is always a group of people see it coming, and typically become the seeds for the next generation. Now, whether when this can happen, or how, you know, I understand how it could happen, but when I do not know, what actually we it needs to occur, is to go from 5 percent awake to fully awake. I know, that is not easy to explain what I mean by that, but it is a, you know, we need to change our awareness, and is not done by basically how we vote, or, or, or, you know, getting other people to change, most movements that out, they want to change that. So, the movement that will ultimately succeed, is the movement that wants to change yourself, you know, get over trying to change that, let them be, let them be them. But what we need is an example, in the world of a new stage of awareness, And it is not, it is not just, it is not just simple words, like, "Let us be in respect," you know, "Let us be civil," all of that is fine, but an awareness of how the world works, and how actually, you could make decisions with a mind instead of the brain. And I mean, there is so, you know, under real, discovering the human body, what is it is capabilities are, it is the most advanced thing in creation, you know, I mean, we-we have, we have talents and abilities that we have no idea what they are. And so, a new stage of awareness is the only way that the human race is going to get off of this broken cycle. You know, let us, let us do war. Let us do peace. Let us do war. Let us do, you know, just on and on, endless conflicts, the endless suffering. I am a victim here, you know, it is just, it, it will never stop until we change your awareness. And awareness will never happen until a group of people create a pathway into a new stage of awareness that others can follow. So, that to me is going to be the big step, a group of human beings who become a new humanity and really do it themselves. And-and basically, if you could create abundance and joy, a life of respect, and magic where everything flowed, and life was not stressful, hurtful, life was not like a series of whatever will go wrong always goes wrong when you know, it is just, you know you get control of your thoughts is what it is. And that is really quiet I mean, it is, it is hard to even imagine that I mean, become aware of yourself, not aware of everybody else around you, is a, is a, just so radical thing you know. So, a group of people like a pioneer that avenue that direction, for me is going to be the hope of the human race.

SM: 2:30:34
Very well said. And I will close with this. Is there any question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask?

RD: 2:30:41
No, you are completely exhausted. And I think you have asked every possible question imaginable. [laughter]

SM: 2:30:49
Well Rennie, we will be in touch for sure. And now again, thank you very much. Before we hang up, I am going to turn the tape off here. Thank you very much and, thanks.

(End of Interview)

8/7/2019

Stephen McKiernan

Rennie Davis, 2

Rennie Davis (1940-2021) was a spiritual lecturer and an activist. Davis was an American anti-Vietnam war protest leader of the 1960s. He was one of the Chicago Seven defendants. He has appeared on several shows including Larry King Live and Barbara Walters and has provided business advice for the Fortune 500 companies. Davis was an alumnus of Oberlin College.

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Chicago Seven Trial, Chicago, Ill., 1969-1970;
Political activists--United States;
Davis, Rennie--Interviews

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Michigan; economics; farm; chicken contests; basketball; police brutality; Vietnam; Chicago Seven; 1968 Democratic National Convention; Martin Luther King Jr.