Interview with Dean Kahler

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Dean Kahler
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: 7 August 2019
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(Start of Interview)

SM: 00:01
All right. First off Dean-

DK: 00:04
Before we start?

SM: 00:05
Yes, go ahead.

DK: 00:05
Before we get in, question for you. Have you ever run into a woman named Meg Benke? BENKE?

SM: 00:14
No.

DK: 00:16
She is an administrator I think at the SUNY.

SM: 00:18
Oh, ah was she, now was she was she in the (19)60s?

DK: 00:28
Well, no-no, no, she is a little later than that.

SM: 00:33
Oh, okay.

DK: 00:34
But, you know, she is probably 10 years younger than I am.

SM: 00:39
Okay. Now I-

DK: 00:42
I knew her down in, I knew her down in Athens.

SM: 00:45
Oh, okay, very good.

DK: 00:47
Yeah.

SM: 00:48
All right, let me let me start this. Now. Before we start, let me let me just rem- do you remember when you were working in Athens, when the gentleman who wrote "Born on the Fourth of July”- I forget his name now, golly.

DK: 01:04
Ron Kovic.

SM: 01:05
Yeah. Ron Kovic. He was arrested.

DK: 01:09
Yep.

SM: 01:09
Yeah, he, it was between (19)73 and (19)76. And I remember he was protesting there. And I remember I, one of the students brought a newspaper back from the main campus to the Lancaster campus and they really, boy they really roughed him up, geez. Even though he is in a wheelchair, I could not believe what the- you know that he was up. I guess he was arrested a lot. He is a very close friend of Bobby Mueller who found that Vietnam Veterans of America.

DK: 01:35
Right, yeah.

SM: 01:36
And-and he and Ron were two of the leaders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War too. So, you know, yeah, they are very close friends. My very first question, Dean is, could you tell me a little bit about your growing up year years, where you grew up, what your what your family did where you went to elementary and high school, your early influences in life before going to Kent State?

DK: 02:00
Okay. Well, I grew up in a- outside of a little village and township called the Osnaburg Township, OSNABURG. And the post office we got our mail out was a little village called East Canton, which changed it is name from Osnaburg to East Canton during World War One because some people came out and burned down some barns in Osterberg because he thought everybody that lived out there with German.

SM: 02:27
Oh, my gosh.

DK: 02:29
Yeah-yeah. So that is how it kind of went from Osnaburg to East Canton. But I lived in Osnaburg Township, though.

SM: 02:38
Right.

DK: 02:39
But a farming community, basically. My, where I lived was on one of the very early subdivisions in in Osnaburg Township. The house I was lived, grew-grew up in was made or built in (19)23. So, it was the same age as my dad. And we lived about four football fields away from the family farm.

SM: 03:05
Oh, wow.

DK: 03:06
And my dad, my dad sold his interest in the farm to his brother. And they all did basically all the siblings. And he is the one that had the farm, and it is still a farm to this day.

SM: 03:19
My golly.

DK: 03:23
[Inaudible]

SM: 03:23
Now when you were a kid, did you like work for your dad on the farm? Like, for example, the haying season and that kind of stuff?

DK: 03:32
I worked for my uncle on the farm. And yeah, I did not just work in hay season, I worked in the winter season, the spring season, the planting season, the harvesting season, you name it, I was there. You know, go up, get up in the mornings to go milk cows, take a shower and eat breakfast at my Uncle Ray's house or Uncle Ray's and Aunt May's house [crosstalk], go to school. And that was my life basically, from that time I was 12 or 13 years old.

SM: 04:04
Now-

DK: 04:04
We are also involved, but I was also involved in the Church of the Brethren. And that is the Church of the Brethren. Which are the old, the old Dunkers. And for a frame of reference, the church that that is that Antietam is an old Dunker church.

SM: 04:22
I know it well.

DK: 04:24
An old Brethren Church.

SM: 04:25
Yes.

DK: 04:26
And yes, I have been there for two services that they have held in period costume and in period practices, with Brethren historians. But yeah, even though we were all pacifists, they were there helping to tend to the wounded no matter what color uniform they had on.

SM: 04:47
Yeah, I have been the Antietam about three times, when I go to Gettysburg then I drive over to Antietam and-

DK: 04:53
Yeah.

SM: 04:54
-and one day I was there, it was a beautiful day and that the building you are talking about was across the street from the tourist center. And, and some of those historic shots from the battle itself. And they were comparing the how it looks today without a looked back in at the in- the year the Antietam took place. And wow, that was something else.

DK: 05:14
Yeah, certainly was, certainly was.

SM: 05:17
Now what was your, how many kids are in your high school?

DK: 05:21
Let us see, I do not know about the high school, but every class had right around one hundred kids in it. And that is K through, or 1 through 12. We did not have kindergarten whenever I was kid till later on.

SM: 05:33
Right.

DK: 05:33
But we, my graduating class was ninety-six kids, and most of us so we all had farm backgrounds in that class. So I grew up in that kind of environment, an agricultural environment, but also grew up in a religious environment, because I was involved in the youth group, as a junior high and then a high schooler and was, you know, chairman of our youth group for one year, then I was on the district chairman or district youth group, and I was the chairman there one year as well, I would work your way up from treasurer, secretary, vice president, president. That sort of stuff. And then, so I traveled all over northern Ohio, [inaudible] district working with other youth groups and planning activities for everybody along the way, having district wide youth activities as well.

SM: 06:31
Well, now that was, that was when you were in high school, correct?

DK: 06:34
That was all when I was in junior high in high school, yeah.

SM: 06:37
You now, has-has this continued, I mean, a different way as you became an adult? And you know, I know you had the tragedy at Kent State. But as you have gone on later in life, has religion plays a very important part in your life?

DK: 06:52
Well, the principles of religion have played a very important part in my life, but because of the transient nature of human beings these days. I go to church whenever I can. And I, you know, I enjoy the religious aspect of the religious community that is there. But you know, I have lived in Athens, I have lived up here. And, you know, in Athens there were no brother churches down there. The closest one I think, was selling coffee.

SM: 07:23
I know where that is.

DK: 07:24
About six miles away from Athens, so. But I did not have any real religious community there. I went to the church right on Main Street there, right behind beside the City Hall of Athens-

SM: 07:41
Okay.

DK: 07:41
-what is the name of that church?

SM: 07:43
I know it because I worked at the Ohio University of Lancaster campus, but I was on the main campus a lot for meetings. I was involved in the Human Relations Committee, and we had to go down there once a month for those meetings.

DK: 07:56
Oh, yeah.

SM: 07:56
And then I love a lot of the faculty members I got to know at the main campus, and I brought them back as speakers because they were some pretty renowned authors there. Particularly in the philosophy [crosstalk], particularly people like Dr. Hunt, who has passed away, but he was in the philosophy department. In high school, what activities were you involved in?

DK: 08:18
Well, let us see. I was involved in the junior play, the senior play, I played football in high school. I was involved in intramural basketball because I could not walk and chew gum at the same time. [laughter] We did not have a speech or debate team, but I was on what was it? Why hot, Wi Fi or Wi Hi? Or, you know, sort of like Junior-Junior, Junior Achievement type-type of people. So.

SM: 08:51
I got to, [crosstalk] I got to ask you this. If you were a football player, how come they did not recruit you for Ohio State? [laughter]

DK: 08:59
Well, let us see. I was when I graduated high school and when I was playing high school football, I was six foot two and weighed 150 pounds.

SM: 09:07
Now I understand.

DK: 09:09
And I could barely walk and chew gum at the same time.

SM: 09:12
[laughs] Very good. Yeah, as a high school student in the late (19)60s. What year did you graduate? High School?

DK: 09:21
(19)69.

SM: 09:22
Yep. As a high school student in the late (19)60s, what were your thoughts on the issues of the day? And I am not sure if you are, you know, you are working on the farm, you got activities, but whether that was touching you before you ever got to Kent State, and I am just-

DK: 09:37
Yeah, it touched me long before I get to Kent State. One because of my activities with the Church of the Brethren. And the issue of pacifism. Two, because of the issues relating to women's rights-

SM: 09:52
Oh, yeah.

DK: 09:52
-and probably most importantly, the issue of civil rights. Our church was involved in all three of those in a pretty heavy way. All through the (19)60s. And so, I grew up with a mixed marriage family. My father was a member of the Democratic Party and a union member. And my mother was a member of the Republican Party. And she did not work until, I think when I was 16, when she started working when my brother went to, went to high school, or elementary school, and so I, my parents, sort of were like the-the ideal of the (19)60s, you know, we sat down at dinner table every night, and discussed the issues of the day. And you better have something to bring to the table, as opposed to just picking on your sister or whatever.

SM: 09:54
Yeah, yeah, you know Dean, it is amazing how much we are alike in many ways. My, my mother was came from a strong Democratic family, my dad was a Republican.

DK: 10:53
Oh, wow.

SM: 10:53
Yep. And we had all while growing up until we start going off to college, and we were away and everything we had, we always were there together at the dinner table, and we discussed everything. Sometimes, sometimes my mom wanted my dad to speak up more, because he was always eating fast. And he ate so fast, he would get up the table, say "No we want you to stay here awhile" [laughs] because he was a fast eater, but talking about the issues of the day, and that is interesting. That is very interesting. And I do not think I asked you this question about your parents, did they argue over politics or did they just, you know- I do not ever remember my parents arguing ever about politics.

DK: 11:33
Well, they never argued, but they discussed it regularly. And there was no, there was no dissension amongst them other than disagreement. And so, you know, when they argued they were talking about a particular issue, and their belief in it, whatever, whatever that issue was that particular day. So that was that was how I grew up debating politics as a kid, watching my parents discuss those issues, pros and cons of each of those, their positions on whatever the issue was, whether it be, you know, the Vietnam War, or, you know, the issue of pollution, the issue of women's rights, you know, all that kind of stuff that was happening in the (19)60s.

SM: 11:51
Right. It is amazing. When you think about it, all the movements that were, you used the Civil Rights movement as examples to, on how to do things and nonviolent protests by via Dr. King, but there were also those who created violence. But you know, when you look at the Vietnam War, and Civil Rights, the women's movement, obviously the Native American, the Native American movement too and the gay and lesbian-

DK: 12:41
Yeah.

SM: 12:41
-the gay and lesbian movement, and Earth Day from (19)70. These are like major issues, and they were all evolving, all in about the same time where people were speaking up.

DK: 12:51
Oh, yeah.

SM: 12:53
So, when you were in high school, you were really up to date and what was happening in the world.

DK: 13:01
We sure were, we sure were. In fact, my government teacher took about 40 of us, 40 of us on a school bus up to the University of Akron to see Richard Nixon give his speech in (19)68, when he came to the University of Akron, and since then I have run into hundreds of people who were there, who went to Kent State, who were, you know, students of Kent State along the way, we all compare our notes about what we saw and what we heard, and how we interpreted those that particular event.

SM: 13:32
Wow.

DK: 13:33
So yeah, it is pretty amazing that I am conversing with people for three, four or five years older than me who were at the, at the Nixon speech at the University of Akron.

SM: 13:44
What-what were your thoughts, what were your thoughts in high school way before you get to Kent State, about student protesters? In terms of, you know, people just protesting in general.

DK: 13:59
I thought it was an important thing to do. I mean, the- our founding fathers protested. And I believed a lot in what President- Dr. King had to say about being peaceful and knowledgeable, not only on the issue, but on your opponent, the person who has a different agreement than you do, different understanding.

SM: 14:20
Right.

DK: 14:20
And so, to me protesting is, you know, goes right along with apple pie. Ice cream and apple pie, you know, as the American dream.

SM: 14:34
You know, when the when, in the beginning of the Vietnam War, most people supported it. But as time goes on, particularly in the mid- probably about the late (19)60s, things changed. And, and, you know, when you look at our Founding Fathers, they were a minority amongst Americans who, you know, did, you know, they wrote the Declaration of Independence and they wanted freedom still the majority of Americans were afraid of the British and kind of looked at the Founding Fathers in many ways as radicals.

DK: 15:04
Yeah.

SM: 15:04
And as a young man, I used to compare that when I saw some of the people protesting the Vietnam War, because in the beginning, they were in the minority. And then then finally, they evolved into the majority. So, it is kind of kind of a linkage in two different eras.

DK: 15:18
Exactly, but also in my environment, in Church of the Brethren people who protested the war were a minority. But I have to look back at some of the original protesters that were there for, say, like the Civil Rights movement, and the civil- and then the war, the anti-Vietnam War movement. A lot of those were church ladies who are writing letters, who were doing bake sales, raising money to say, sent to, to the NAACP, all that sort of stuff. And, you know, they were like silent protesters, they were doing something. And a lot of people forget about the very first protests of the war in Vietnam were not college students. They were church ladies who believed in pacifism, thought this war was crazy. So.

SM: 16:07
Yeah, there was a strong organization in Philadelphia in the (19)60s. And that was Mothers Against the Vietnam War. And they were old, they were older women, they were actually in their 30s and 40s. That we brought a couple of them to Westchester University. And, you know, they have all passed on now, but that was a great revelation hearing from them.

DK: 16:29
Right. Well, you had the Quakers, Mennonites, Church of the Brethren, and whoever else was out there protesting, the old church ladies who were against this whole war. So, yeah.

SM: 16:41
In your, in your view, what has been the overall impact of your generation, which is the boomer generation, on America? And I can ask, and I would say, the (19)60's generation, because not everybody went to college. And there were a lot of young people who were not going to college against the war, what, are your feelings toward your generation positive, more positive or negative?

DK: 17:05
I think a positive, though I do have some disappointment in the fact that a lot of people still have to then continue to stand up against the corruption and, you know, the-the abuse of power by public officials. And not supporting people who were out there on the front lines. So yeah, I mean, I still have a positive impact, or view of my generation that we did a lot of things, we made a lot of change. But our follow through was a little bit short. We could have been a little more involved as we got older. But then again, you know, you worry about all these things, you know, you are paying taxes, your houses, your children.

SM: 17:52 Right.

DK: 17:54 So yeah.

SM: 17:55
One of the things, one of the opportunities I have had when I have interviewed so many people is hearing some tremendous insights from things I did not even thought and one of them was Richie Havens. When he, when I interviewed him, when I talked about the boomer generation, he became very sensitive because he says, "I am a boomer, but I was born in (19)41." And he was about the third or fourth person that I interviewed of all the people I interviewed who got very sensitive about these putting years into, the boomers are from (19)46 to (19)64. The generation-

DK: 18:29
Right.

SM: 18:29
-Xers are (19)64, to (19)80. And Richie, Richie said, just made a comment, and I and it will be in the interview if we can get his daughter to okay it. That the spirit, the spirit of the (19)60s, the spirit of the times, it is not in years. It is based on the people, and he was he said, "I am born in (19)41. And I am as much a boomer as you are."

DK: 18:54
Yeah, I agree with him there. That is 100 percent correct. Because, you know, all through that time, it was not just us young people. I mean, I looked around and I saw people with gray hair.

SM: 19:03 Yes.

DK: 19:04 Throughout their lifetime. So.

SM: 19:06 You know, there is, there is some great senators there against the war, the some of the older ones, but there were also a few remember Dean, reading about the (19)60s or even before you went to Kent State. I heard these stories about that the leaders on college campuses were the older students that were in graduate school, and that the undergraduate’s kind of looked up to them as mentors and role models. And when you look at all the, when you look at Rennie Davis, Tom Hayden- I know Tom Hayden's first wife, Casey Hayden, and-

DK: 19:36
Yeah.

SM: 19:37
-they were all born between (19)37 and (19)45.

DK: 19:41
Yeah-yeah.

SM: 19:43
So, it is kind of you know, there is some truth to what Richie was saying. And actually, Todd Gitlin said in the interview, he said he- you know, "I-I like the fact that you are talking about the generation you grew up in, but if I hear one more time, you mentioning [laughs] our generation I might-might end the interview." Because he-he is in that group of (19)37 to (19)45. If you were to describe the students and the overall youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe in your own words, the qualities you admire the qualities you do not admire. And I am asking you some general questions before we get into, you know, more of the other things directly related to your life. But this is just being around your peers and your thoughts on them.

DK: 20:34
Well, I admired their intellectual curiosity. And I admired the fact that the, although the lines between men and women were breaking down to the point where men did not expect the women just to do the copying, and the typing. And that we were growing in that sense of the word. And the fact that we were not afraid to speak up and, you know, point out the foibles and the injustices that our society was committing in our name.

SM: 21:12
Do you feel that the some of the people within that generation were kind of naive? Because if you recall, it was even at Kent State, probably. I know it was at SUNY Binghamton and I know it was at Berkeley- I have talked to some people. Is that some are very serious and well-read, and others were naive and did not understand. Because there was, "We want to end the war," or "We want to stop this," but there was no alternative. They had no alternative except to criticize what was, they had no idea about what will become.

DK: 21:45
Well, when you end the war, you know, obviously, you have got to take care of it, and deal with the country that is your you invaded. In this particular case, you are talking about Vietnam. And yeah, there was naiveite there, there is no doubt about that. But generally, people are willing to learn. So, you know, the naive, students, if they did anything, they learned a little bit as well, because there was so much to be learned around you. And it was easy to learn because it was in your face every single day. And if it was not in your face, you knew somebody who was in Vietnam. And so.

SM: 22:29
Did you, did you lose any friends in the war?

DK: 22:33
Well, I did not lose any friends in the war, but I had several who were wounded. And a classmate of mine, her brother was killed in Vietnam. He was about three years older than us. So yeah, I would say that would have been (19)60, (19)65 or (19)66. Because I remember what she was pulled out of algebra class.

SM: 23:00
Oh, wow. That would have been, that would have been sad. Do you did you, in your family, what we heard a lot about back in the (19)60s and (19)70s was this generation gap. Was there a generation gap in your family at all about the war or any of the issues? And or if not in your family, maybe some of your friends and their families?

DK: 23:23
Oh, yeah. I saw it all around me. Also, my father did not like the fact that I was [inaudible] I was a pacifist. He thought it was my duty to be involved in the military, get drafted and or join because he was drafted in World War Two. And, you know, he fought in the Pacific. And then, you know, my neighbors. Whenever they started hearing about my views on pacifism, they, you know, they would make comments about that. They did not think it was right. Some of my colleagues, my high school colleagues called me a coward or [inaudible] sort of stuff.

SM: 24:06
Wow.

DK: 24:08
Even though I played you know, I was starting tackle on the football team. [laughter]

SM: 24:14
And you could not run if you are chewing gum, right? [laughs]

DK: 24:19
Right. I can take four or five steps and knock somebody down, you know.

SM: 24:24
Yeah.

DK: 24:25
When you are farm boy, you do not have an ounce of fat on you, [inaudible]

SM: 24:29
Right. Now, how did you choose Kent State?

DK: 24:34
Well, it was a long-distance phone call from my parents. [laughs]

SM: 24:40
Really?

DK: 24:42
Well, no. I wanted to be a teacher. So, they had a real good reputation for being an education college. It used to be a formal school at one point.

SM: 24:51
Right.

DK: 24:53
They definitely know how to [inaudible] teachers there.

SM: 24:57
Yeah, well, I cannot believe how big that school is growing right now if we get back into the questions, but I in the last couple of times I have been there, there is new buildings going up everywhere. And downtown. You are not going to recognize it eventually. With all the-

DK: 25:11
Oh yeah, the downtown has been totally remodeled. [inaudible]

SM: 25:17
Yeah, it is a growing university with more and more students attending as well. I [crosstalk] have a- go ahead.

DK: 25:27
Okay. But good reason for that growth. What is Kent surrounded by? Akron, Canton, Cleveland, Youngstown?

SM: 25:34
Yes. So, a lot of people.

DK: 25:38
Yeah.

SM: 25:40
What is that up to now in numbers?

DK: 25:43
Well, on the main campus, they are right around 21, 22 thousand. But that is not including the-the branch campuses in East Liverpool and, oh God Tuscarora County, and Stark County and. There is another one up near [inaudible] up in Geauga County.

SM: 26:04
Okay.

DK: 26:04
As well, so there are at least four branch campuses with around 5000 students in each one.

SM: 26:12
That is a lot of students. I know, you know, Ohio universities survived in the early (19)70s because of Lancaster and Zanesville, and I think Chillicothe. Ohio, the Lancaster campus, I think has 2200 students now I think they are pretty much 2200, 2500 students. But-but Ohio University in the early (19)70s, they were up close to 18,000. And I think they went down to about 12,500 or 13,500 after the (19)60s. And so-

DK: 26:41
Right, they did for a while.

SM: 26:42
Yeah, so there was a lot of things going on there. Now, this is just a general question here. And I know you may have already said some things on it. In high school and college that you support and participate in protests against the war in Vietnam and other protests. And just wondering, how did you feel about- you already answered that. How do you feel about protesters after arriving at Kent?

DK: 27:04
Yeah, I went to a couple of protests, one of them was outside of the Student Union. And there was about 30, 30 of us there. I did not have any signs, but they had signs. So, I used one of their signs. But there was a group that was standing there about eight or ten guys, they were sorority brothers. And they will in their Izod shirts and whatever kind of golf shirts, they were wearing-wearing a gulf button up and shut, trying to shut us down. We are trying to, you know, march in and also to talk about the issues of the day. And I went to a couple others that were in the evening, and small protests of 15 or 20 people. And there was not any counter protesters. I have gone to those as well. So yeah, they were there. I wore a peace button or peace sign on my shirt every day. And people knew my position on that just by checking out the button on my shirt.

SM: 27:29
Right. Yep.

DK: 28:06
So, yeah.

SM: 28:06
Yeah. Well, you know that that whole description of the-the fraternity guys with their Izod or polo shirts, whatever it might be. It is so true. It was the case at Ohio State when I was there in graduate school. It was the case of, at SUNY Binghamton when they were we- actually were banned from SUNY Binghamton. We did not have fraternities or sororities, when we were there, there was no way it was ever going to be passed. And of course, anybody who knows the free speech movement at Berkeley knows that the people that were those biggest threats toward the protesters were not the police. They were the [laughs] fraternity guys. So, when you, before you came to campus, you obviously were aware of some of the other major protests that were happening around the country. What, you know, the takeover at Columbia, the free speech, [crosstalk] the free speech movement at Berkeley at (19)65, (19)66. Certainly, the takeover by Native Americans of Alcatraz, I know Jane Fonda was there for that. And of course, the Cornell University in (19)69, when members of the Black Panther Party took over the union and they had guns. What was your thoughts on all these different protests? These were major happenings, some were peaceful, some were not.

DK: 29:26
Well, I think it is important so that people would know that those people out there disagreeing with the White House policies in this particular case. And I thought it was great that they were doing it, it was important, it got a message out and let people know that there is a large portion of people who were going to be cannon fodder for the military who did not like this particular war. I mean, it is not that that they were against all wars. They were against this particular war, unlike my religion, which is against all war. And so up, you know, but it is important to realize that, you know, as young people are, who were studied, they were quick to learn. And they learned that there is this very [inaudible] what we were doing in Southeast Asia. That was important to let you know, the older generation know that we were not going to go peacefully into the night. And I agreed with them. I thought it was a good idea, I am not. I was always a person who believes in peaceful protest, but it was important to protest. And a little thing about Cornell, two years before the protests at Cornell, my church had their annual youth conference, which happens every four years nationwide, and I was on the Cornell campus for 10 days.

SM: 30:48
Oh, wow.

DK: 30:49
At that particular time.

SM: 30:50
That is my neck of the woods.

DK: 30:52
Yeah. And Bob Dylan was supposed to play there. But I think that was when he was still recuperating from his motorcycle accident.

SM: 31:00
Oh, okay.

DK: 31:02
Yeah-yeah.

SM: 31:03
Here is a little tidbit. One of the African American leaders of that very serious protests at Cornell is now one of the most important alumni in Cornell's history. I think he is on the, I think he was on, he was on the Board of Trustees for a while. He has become a very successful person in life. And, and Harry Edwards, you know, the former professor at Berkeley, he was the advisor there at Cornell, he was a graduate student. And he come, [crosstalk] yeah, he was a graduate student there at the time. And he was involved in the protests, advising them. And of course, we all know what he did with Tommie, John Carlos and Tommie Smith in (19)68 Olympics.

DK: 31:26
Wow. Yeah.

SM: 31:49
[crosstalk] So a lot of connection there at Cornell. This is a question I would like your feelings on, and that is, how important were the student protests on college campuses on ending the war in Vietnam? Would you consider this time the closest, and also would you consider the (19)60s and early (19)70s as the closest we have come to a civil war since the Civil War?

DK: 32:19
Protests on college campuses were like building a house, which culminated in say, the shootings at Kent State University, and then the marches on Washington that happened around that time as well. So, there was a whole building blocks, it was all, like, putting a putting a pot of stew on the stove, you know, you put your potatoes in first, but there they go the hardest thing, takes longer to cook. So those are important as steppingstones along the way. And the second part of that question was what?

SM: 32:56
Oh, would you consider the period of the (19)60s and early (19)70s like the 19- like the Civil War, we came close to going at each other's throats.

DK: 33:11
I do not think it was close to a civil war at all. Not at all. Mainly because people who were protesting the war were thinking about the union. They were thinking about this country, and the people that lived in this country. And so, I do not think there was any correlation to a civil war at all, because you had all through the (19)60s with Martin Luther King, talking about peaceful coexistence, and protesting peacefully. And many of the antiwar demonstrators felt the same way and use the same tactics along the way. So not anywhere close to a civil war.

SM: 33:50
Did the-?

DK: 33:51
Unlike the crazy extreme right. Now, just because they do not like some of the policies that are out there that are more humane and less discretionary. They are already starting to scream about a civil war, which is crazy. I mean, those people would nuts. And I hate to say that, but I know a few along the way, and they are already talking about Civil War, and I say, "what?!" How could you even say such a thing.

SM: 34:21
Yeah. The think the media at times kind of built this kind of, is this, is there a possibility and what they would always use is that wall street scene where the hard hats would-would beat up the protesters, remember that scene? I forget what year.

DK: 34:40
Oh yeah, oh yeah. [inaudible]

SM: 34:42
And they always go there. They always go to that scene on, in New York, and it is the media trying to portray some of these things too.

DK: 34:51
I must say I watch a lot of media because I am laid up right now. I do not feel [inaudible] doing that. What I do see on the Internet, going through various places like YouTube, the NRA chapters of an extreme [inaudible], people out there that have their own websites. They are the ones who are bringing up the issue of civil war. At this point in time. You know, they are worried about gun control, they are worried about Black people taking over. They are worried about people of different color, different nationalities who are American citizens who are born here that do not look like them. They are the ones who are stirring this up. The media has done a good job of keeping it off the front page, as far as I am concerned. [Inaudible] say, I am consuming a lot of media right now, because I am laid up. And I do not see it. What I am seeing is, it is crazy people out there, putting their videos online talking about, you know, how to prep for this type of thing. How much ammo do you need, you know, what kind of property you need to build. So that stuff is going on, those people are crazy. And there is like they are getting more and more hits, more and more likes, on their, on their, on their pages.

SM: 35:37
Right. I know, it is more, I know, Morris Dees wrote a book, maybe 15, maybe six, maybe 15 years ago about the militia. And I think it is as applicable today as it was when he wrote it. Have you changed your opinion at all about boomers since you have aged?

DK: 36:30
Just like I said, I see more of the areas where we could have done more follow through. And we have not. And so yeah, that is that part about me is a little disappointed in some areas. But I think in the, for it is time, we, we did a good job. And we made the country aware of what was going on. But I think at this point in time, what I am seeing is the boomer generation, the-the women who are involved, are the ones who are more active and more, more willing to be out there and in front and do leadership. You know, to me, that is important to see the women are picking it picking it up.

SM: 37:10
I agree. I agree. And I hope I hope one day we really get equal pay.

DK: 37:17
Yeah.

SM: 37:17
Equal pay for equal work, I know that this has been a big issue, it is still is in some positions, because of the position everybody is paid the same, like in Congress. But the thing is, that they are still not being paid, what men are paid. And they still have to, you know, continue the battle. The-the, would you describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s as the most unique generation in American history? I say this, because back, you may have heard this from your peers back when we were both young, whether it be Kent State or SUNY Binghamton or another, any other college, students felt that they had this feeling that, a good feeling that they were going to change things and for the betterment of society, they were, that they were going to be the change agents for the betterment-betterment of society, they saw they would see it wrong, and they tried to right it. Your thoughts on that, that they, that this feeling that we are unique, we are different, we may be the greatest generation in history. They thought that in their youth, I am not sure if they think that now.

DK: 38:27
Well, I never thought that my youth always thought that we were just part of these movements in this society that we live in, this country we live in. We were just picking up the mantle and carrying it forward. Now the generation that I attribute that is probably the most changed, did the most change in this world, would be my parents’ generation that fought in World War Two, that survived the Great Depression, and brought the prosperity to the world that we have out there. And that that, to me was probably the generation that had the biggest impact on society in this world, you know, in my lifetime, but I think we were just part of a, you know, part of the movement in this country to move forward. And you know, we did not have any big world war, but we had our own skirmishes in Cambodia, you know, and Laos. So yeah, I mean, I do not know I do not, I never got that feeling that we were, you know, major change agents in the world. I never felt that at all.

SM: 39:35
I have about six other questions before we get to the Kent State, but I am going to go right into Kent State because I think it is important here.

DK: 39:43
Yeah.

SM: 39:43
These are the questions; I got a whole series here. Why did you why did you choose Kent State, and I think you have already explained that and your major in teaching. Were you a conservative or a liberal? How would you define yourself?

DK: 40:00
Well, if I look back at what I was, in context of today's reality, I would say I was probably a liberal. But I just, I was still, in my mind at the time I was thinking about, you know, all these issues, how I, how I need to approach them, how I need to address them, and you know, how they affect me, and what can I do about that? You know so I did not really think of myself as a liberal or conservative. I was considering myself as someone who was trying to figure my way through this world at this point in time. Oh, yeah. So yeah, I would say, looking back, I would say I was probably a liberal but at the time I was just curious.

SM: 40:41
On that, on that weekend, starting with the, when Nixon gave the speech, that we were going into Cambodia on April 30, it sent a wave around the country of protests. I mean, like, golly, I cannot even, you know, it happened on our campus. Did you attend and support all the events over those four-day periods, and on the 30th, and then the 1st, 2nd and 3rd?

DK: 41:07
Well on the third, obviously I was in the, you know, the local tavern watching the speech and you know, [inaudible] to televisions, not television, televisions, remember back then we did not have huge TVs like we do now.

SM: 41:20
Right-right.

DK: 41:22
But I was, I was in there. And everybody was taking notes. I felt out of place. I felt like I went to a classroom out of Oakland. And it was quiet, except for whenever it was over with, there was a lot of booing. And then there was a long discussion on the way back to my dormitory, Tri Towers. And then the next day, I remember going to classes. And then I went home. I was home for the weekend. And the district youth were at our church while I was there, sort of facilitating the activities that were going on and discussions that was going in a small group, discussions about the war in Vietnam, what had happened, that sort of thing. So, I was gone Friday after classes on the 3rd, Sunday afternoon. So, I missed all that. But I was [inaudible] by Church of the Brethren, people I knew who were younger than me, year or two younger than me, helping facilitate the discussion that was going on during the district youth rally at the [inaudible] Church.

SM: 42:31
When you left, Dean after the speech on the 30th and went back home, and then you came back to your campus a few days later, were you shocked to see National Guard troops there?

DK: 42:43
I truly was. In fact, it was not just on the campus. I mean, it was clear up on the edge of town, South 43, the route 43 on my entrance into campus was I was driving north on 43. And we pulled up there and my dad said he saw what was happening. He said get your driver's license out your ID card out. And I will take, I will do all the talking. I said, "why?" He says, "Well, I used to be a truck driver in World War Two. I told you that. But I went through lots of checkpoints, I know exactly what to do." And he said, "just hope the guy that comes in the window is not a second lieutenant because I do not have a good respect for them. I hope it is a sergeant." And sure enough, it was some sergeant. [inaudible] had a little conversation with him about being a World War Two veteran and taking his son back to school, taking him back to, you know, Tri-Towers and the guy said, "Well, you are going to have two or three more check points before you get there. And you got to [inaudible] order here, sir." My dad said, "Do not call me sir." [laughter]

SM: 43:51
Wow, I did not know about, all these checkpoints just to come back to your college?

DK: 43:56
Yeah-yeah. There was a check point when we got to the edge of campus.

SM: 44:01
What were they looking for? Troublemakers?

DK: 44:08
Probably. [laughs]

SM: 44:10
Yeah, that happened, that happened at Michigan State when I went to visit a friend of mine there and he said, "Well, you better have your ID" and I said, "why?" "Well, you will find out when you get here" and yes, they thought we were out of state agitators.

DK: 44:25
Right. You got, there was not both your ID and your driver's license [inaudible]

SM: 44:30
Yes.

DK: 44:32
I was saying, our driver's license were paper if you were a member of Ohio. Yep.

SM: 44:37
My golly. So, you got back to the campus and that, what were all the students thinking there in your residence hall? I mean, this is what the this is the third?

DK: 44:50
Yes, yeah.

SM: 44:54
What were they go- what was happening in the residence halls?

DK: 44:56
Well, I do not know what was happening in the residence hall. I got there in time for, you know, evening meal and unpacking and that sort of stuff. But nobody was talking about it. You know, they were discussing what was going on there. People were discussing about what was happening in Cambodia. People were telling stories about how they had been stopped by two or three soldiers who had bayonets on their rifles, pointing them at them, telling them to drop their books, searching them and that sort of stuff. But yeah, there was all this uneasy feeling about what was happening. And, you know, there was a lot of discussion about that whole uneasy feeling, feeling to sum it up in a few words.

SM: 45:40
Yeah, I have been doing enough of those remembrance events to hear you and Alan and all the others talk about the experience. And the fact is, I keep asking one question, where was the president? I mean, I am not talking about President Nixon, where was President White?

DK: 45:57
Right. [crosstalk]

SM: 45:57
Where, he was on he was in a conference waiting to get on a plane and get the heck back to the campus. I mean, I cannot understand that.

DK: 46:06
Right. He was in Iowa, I think. And he came back Sunday. And that is about same time Governor Rhodes made that impassioned speech to the fire department. And I think President White just washed his hands of the issue, said the governor's been here, the governor's taken over and the National Guard have taken over and I think President White just washed his hands of the whole issue [crosstalk].

SM: 46:35
Wow, see that that is, I mentioned, I think I have mentioned that the Alan years ago, just in a conversation that is weak presidential leadership if I have ever heard one. And number one, he should have been fighting for the students. And he should have, he should have not allowed them- I well, I, you know, the governor can override him, but he should have challenged him more.

DK: 46:56
Absolutely.

SM: 46:57
And, and it is because he could have prevented a crisis.

DK: 47:02
Yeah.

SM: 47:03
And that is where you need the leadership. The next day, the day the day that really, I think, shook the world. I think you need to know this Dean that you know that the reason I am in higher education, the reason I changed my career goals. The reason it was it was because of what happened on that day. I wanted to I wanted to go into higher education as a career with a hope that I could be an administrator that could work for students, try to bring faculty, students and administrators together in harmony not in, you know, into battle. And, and I think my story is the story of thousands.

DK: 47:46
Oh, yeah, [crosstalk]

SM: 47:47
The loss of the loss of four precious lives and the wounding of four, or nine precious people is inexcusable.

DK: 47:57
Yeah, absolutely.

SM: 47:59
And as Alan and, and you, I think you all agree from a couple of conferences that it was murder.

DK: 48:05
Yep. That it was.

SM: 48:06
But can you explain, and this is important, because people down the road will hear this interview, and we will all be long gone. But Kent State will never be gone. And the [inaudible] the remembrance event, is going to be major. But I know right now, three people at Harpur College, who I do not even know, in their interview, said that the thing that changed their life was Kent State.

DK: 48:36
Wow. Yeah-yeah.

SM: 48:38
Could you desrc- could you describe that day on May 4th, in your own words?

DK: 48:46
To follow up on what you were saying there, state sanctioned murder is basically what it was. You know, it was, Governor Rhodes made such derogatory remarks, he said that "We will do it. We will do anything to eradicate the problem." [phone rings]

SM: 49:05
Do not worry about that noise. I am in a room here with the phone. Hold on one second. [banging] I cannot do anything about it. It is the phone. Go ahead.

DK: 49:30
Basically, [inaudible] saying we have to do everything we can to-to eradicate the problem. They called us, said that we were the worst elements that we harbor in our society, that we were worse than the Brown Shirts, the Night Riders, the vigilantes. So, he was demonizing us and I think justifying his future actions that he thought might happen or maybe did not think that happened, sort of was setting the stage, being an agitator. And so that sort of gave, you know, gave people, you know, the green light to do whatever they needed to do. So yeah, something like this should never happened in this late the 20th century.

SM: 50:16
Now what time, what time did you will walk over to the field?

DK: 50:20
Well, I got up that morning. And although my professors’ offices [inaudible] I was not coming to classes this morning, that I would be in my afternoon classes. And that was back when you had to, you could not miss unless you were deadly ill, and you always called in to let them know you were not coming to class. That was Kent State. Because only the year before they finally allowed women and men to visit each other in our dormitory.

SM: 50:47
Wow.

DK: 50:49
There were not- yeah. And so, I remember getting up that morning, and walking over with a couple of my floormates to the area. And we all got [inaudible] we got lost along the way. I was planning on going to my 1:10 class. So, I had paper and a couple of pens in my pocket. So, I could put them in my notebook notes that I was taking that particular, the rest of the afternoon in my last two classes. And we were standing on the side of the hill, watching what was going on. There were a couple of people with a bullhorn, talking about the isms of the day. I was getting a little bored. And then I noticed that the National Guard, were moving around over by, in ruins of the ROTC building that were burnt down, and thought, "Well, something is going to happen here." And next thing I know there is an officer bullhorn who told us to disperse, we were illegally gathered that sort of thing. Even though there was no damage being done, there was no rioting being done. No anything other than students standing around and listening to these people with these bullhorns talking about the isms of the day. But them coming out and I have to say student, students threw lots of rocks and stones at the National Guard. But they did not get very close. They had a, they had a, I do not know if it was a security guard from the campus or, but we did have our own police department, you know [inaudible] department, or somebody from the city police, I cannot remember now, who was riding in the seat with a bullhorn. And then we went back, and students started chanting all the [inaudible] chants of the day. 1,2,3,4, we do not want your f-ing war. Pigs off campus, and the like. And then they came out with the National Guard and, you know, told us we were gathered illegally, read the Ohio Riot Act to us. And of course, students continued to throw stones, but they stayed, you know, good 100 yards away. Not too many people had the, you know, the arm of a centerfielder to play for any professional baseball team. So, there was basically no harm done there. And then I saw them go back and I saw them putting bayonets on their rifles and checking their rifles, I saw them getting out the grenade launcher that they were going to launch the tear gas canisters with, and then they all formed up in formation and poot-poot-poot. You know, half a dozen tear gas canisters went flying through the air. And of course, the area of the commons surrounded on, you know, three sides by hill- hills, I should say.

SM: 53:41
Right.

DK: 53:41
And it was a fairly, fairly windy day. So, there was a lot of a lot of swirling winds. So, the tear gas did not have the desired effect that they probably wanted to have because students were able to run away from the area and go up around Taylor Hall on the sides. The other side of Taylor Hall and they got out of the way, went down the hill on the other side of Taylor Hall into a parking lot where some kids eventually were shot. But I went past that and to another parking lot across the street, across midway drive. And I remember at that point in time, pulling out a baggie that I had for a wet washcloth and actually had two wet wash cloths, so I could wash off my face then rinse it off as well and, did not have anything to dry it off with but, you know, it was a windy day so it was going to dry quickly. But got the tear gas out of my eye. And I remember standing there watching them come down the hill from where I had just come and go into the practice football field, which was surrounded on three sides by a fence. And another four or 500 students were on the same hill where they had just come from, and basically formed a [inaudible] around them. So, they were totally surrounded by, you know, a chain-link fence and a group of students. And at this point in time, there were a lot of students who were throwing stones from the National Guard, but, you know, again there are 100 yards away. And so, nobody was hitting anything, the National Guard, we thought were just there to shoot tear gas at everybody. I remember one National Guard from picking up a tear gas canister and throwing it back at the students. And then I saw them huddled together. And after they huddled together, they got in formation and marched from where they had come. And then I sort of followed along, staying about 100 yards away, I was curious. I looked at my clock, and it was about 20, 25 after noon. And when they reached the top of the hill, they turned and fired. I mean, I grew up using firearms, and they are turning, and they are lifting their rifle, a very deliberate act. There was no hesitation. There was no, you know, thinking about it. As soon as they pulled those [inaudible] and pulled those rifles up, I said, "Oh, my God, they are going to shoot." I could not believe it. I was mortified. We were jumping on the ground because there was no trees to hide behind. And I was laying there hearing the shots. And all of a sudden, I heard shots landing on the ground around me, not landing but going into the ground around me. And then I got hit, and I said, "Oh, my God, what had happened." Shot me. And then I regained my consciousness quickly again, or my, my awareness, realized there was still bullets hitting the ground around me. And I thought, "Oh, my God, I hope I do not get hit again." And then all of a sudden everything stopped. But while the shooting was going on, I mean, it was chaos. People screaming and hollering. The shrill of their voice, it is just amazing. I just could not believe the noise that three or four thousand people were making, at that point in time, it was shocking to hear. Then there was a lull, a quietness. And then all of a sudden, there was more screaming, more shouting, more hollering. And then all sudden, there were people gathering around me with the look of shock and horror on their face. They were traumatized. These people were looking down at me lying on the ground. And I was not bleeding externally, my bleeding was all done internal and so there was a pool of blood that went through my-my back, it just went inside my shoulder blade, I can reach around and put my finger on the bullet hole. But it has damaged my lungs, and my diaphragm. And my vertebrae and my spinal cord, shattered three vert- three vertebrae, thoracique, 9, 10 and 11 hit me and ricocheted off of there. And the bullet is still in me, I have shrapnel all through my body. And my [inaudible] I should say and seemed like it took forever before an ambulance got there. And I remember [inaudible] the journey, putting me in the ambulance and driving off campus. And there was an odd sight I saw on my trip when I got out on Main Street headed towards Ravenna was the fact that every other telephone pole, there were telephone workers up on the poles and it is probably six of them that I saw. I thought, "Now that is an odd sight as I am going off campus here, why are all those guys up on those telephone poles?" Hospital found out later that they shut off the [inaudible] campus so there will obviously be some pre- planning going on if there was a catastrophe and, you know, they turned off all the phones then they ordered everybody to leave campus. But back to my story I remember getting to the Ravenna hospital, I remember being put on a gurney, you know, a regular hospital gurney and I remember hearing a nurse holler, "Get blood types on all these people!" and I said to myself, "I just gave blood at the blood bank last week so I got my blood donor's card and while I was digging around for it, I pulled out my other blood donor's card from Mercy Medical Center, where I have been giving blood [inaudible] high school and [inaudible] high school, and then, I thought [inaudible] need my insurance card. They are going to need my ID, my driver's license. And I had a card that I had typed up with my parents' phone numbers on it as well. Let us just go back because once I got shot and shooting stopped, I forgot to tell you this-that an African American student came over to me and asked me who I was, and did I know the phone numbers for my parents. And I gave them my parents, two work numbers because I knew they were both at work today, that day. And we went into Prentice Hall and called my parents within five minutes of me getting shot. So, they heard about it firsthand, from an eyewitness, instead of hearing about the news, and then waiting here to see if their son was all right.

SM: 1:01:02
Right.

DK: 1:01:03
So, my mother was the foresight that she had, she called our bishop, we do not we did not call him bishops, they were district secretaries. But they were the equivalent of a bishop, say like in the Catholic Church. And she called him, and he said, "You are lucky you caught me, if you had waited two or three more minutes, I would have been out the door on my way to Robinson Memorial Hospital [inaudible]. So, I will look him up as soon as I get there. So, he drove to Ravenna. And I was able to see him before they put me out to operate on me. And we had a little prayer and a little time together, talked a little bit. And then they gurney- wheeled me out to operate on me. So those were the things that happened to me immediately after the shooting. And then I wake up Friday morning with all kinds of [inaudible] stuck in me, and all kinds of [inaudible] and clapping and supplement breathing. Because this crazy computer aided machines, these were all mechanical machines running to keep me alive at that point in time, and when I was fully conscious, I remember like Saturday morning, the nurse came over and said, "There is an FBI agent over there who would like to talk to you." I said, “Okay, send him over." So came over, he identified himself, I do not remember his name. He says, "I got some questions for you." I said, "Oh, wait-wait, wait. Our family attorney is a guy named Harry Schmuck." And the guy sort of got a little white in the face. I said, "He is an old farm boy and I helped, helped him bale hay, and help him deal with animals. He is my attorney." And then I saw him sort of turn white, and I said, "why do you look so weird today?" "You mean, the Harry Schmuck?" "Yeah." [inaudible] He goes, "yeah, I have my [inaudible] in Cleveland," because these FBI agents were from Cleveland.

SM: 1:03:19
Oh, wow.

DK: 1:03:19
He worked, what was that famous murder case, the Sheppard case as it was?

SM: 1:03:24
Yes-yes.

DK: 1:03:26
He was. He was a young attorney on one of the, I do not know if it was the defense or in the prosecutor's office at that point in time, I think he was on the defense team. And so, you know, he was a rather flamboyant little farm boy. Harry was so [crosstalk].

SM: 1:03:46
Well, you had a good one.

DK: 1:03:48
I apparently had a good one. I did not know.

SM: 1:03:50
Yes, yeah.

DK: 1:03:51
He was good. He It was just another farmer who was a lawyer. And every time I visited his office, the had his barn shoes sitting on a tray just inside the door of his office. So his office always smelled like horse shit and cow shit.

SM: 1:04:07
[laughs] Well, he knows who his roots were. Now Dean, how long were you in the hospital?

DK: 1:04:18
Well, I was in the hospital from May 4th to May 21st. In Robinson Memorial Hospital, then I was a part of this new program trying to get people from their initial spinal cord injury into a rehabilitation center as early as possible. It went from May 4th to May 21st. That is what, 17 days that I was in the [inaudible]. And then I was in the rehab center. They told me when I on my intake that I'd probably be there until February or March of (19)71 because of the seriousness of my injury, because they had to the break three ribs to get into me to manhandle all my organs to look for sharp metal, to repair the organs if they could, and they sewed up my diaphragm. And then they put me all back together. And so, I was really sore. And because I had a spinal cord injury, they could not put me on a frame with tension. So, I had to lay perfectly still on my back for four hours, then they would take six people to rotate me onto my stomach for four hours. And then they would rotate me on my side for four hours, and then my other side foot four hours.

SM: 1:05:50
Wow.

DK: 1:05:51
For three, three months until the hematoma the big pool of blood that was surrounding my three vertebrates finally went down. And they, you know, they then at that point in time that I was allowed to start sitting up a little bit at a time.

SM: 1:06:11
Wow.

DK: 1:06:13
Spent that time but I finally got out of the hospital, I defied all odds, I was being an athlete, I was motivated and know how to take care of myself. In fact, I do, I still do whatever I can, even in my horizontal space at this point in time. I do 50 Pushups every time I get into my cart, then I have a set of five-pound dumbbells that I use to exercise my arm to keep my muscle [inaudible]. So, I was able to get released from the hospital on October 25 (19)70. And I got out in time for Halloween and was able to go back to school in January, of (19)71, much earlier than expected. Yeah.

SM: 1:07:04
And did you go full time for the rest of the time until you graduated?

DK: 1:07:10
Yes, I did. Yes, I did, I did.

SM: 1:07:13
And when did you get that degree?

DK: 1:07:15
Well, because of my interruptions to my education from various things I had to do and learning how to live life as a paraplegic or a spinal cord injured person. It took me a little while, but I finally graduated (19)77. So, yeah, there was a lot of interruptions where I was part of the quarter but would not, would not be able to finish it so.

SM: 1:07:42
And was that still in teaching?

DK: 1:07:45
Yes, yes. It always was.

SM: 1:07:48
And did you go out and become a teacher, when you left?

DK: 1:07:51
I taught for 15 years as a teacher at the end of my career. Prior to that I was in politics and government. I worked for the, first my job was, my first job out of college was with the Industrial Commission, Division of Safety and Hygiene. There was a new program that was being started to help employers make their businesses accessible for their workers who came back disabled from work injuries or non-work injuries, but also to do an accessibility survey for the employers to make their businesses accessible for the disabled so that the disabled could get jobs. So, I did that for two years. And then I was approached by the Democratic Executive Chairman of Athens County and asked me if I would be interested in working for Tony Celebrezze, the newly elected Secretary of State of Ohio. And the interview had two interviews with them, and he asked me if I wanted to work for him and I told him I would. I would still be doing the same type of work, but I would be working with boards of elections and making them accessible in 18 counties in Southeast Ohio. But I knew these counties from my work with the Industrial Commission, Division of Safety and Hygiene because I was already working those 18 counties. And so, I worked for Tony Celebrezze for a couple of months, for four years. And then when he was elected the Attorney General State of Ohio, I continued to work for him. But I switched over primarily with lawyers, judges, that sort of thing. But I must say that one of the major accomplishments was when we left the Secretary of State's office, the facility we left the Secretary of State's office, 99 percent of the board of elections in the state of Ohio were wheelchair accessible. And I think that 80 percent of the polling places were now wheelchair accessible. And the last thing, last [inaudible] that he had, as a Secretary of State was, he started the process of computerized voter registration [inaudible] which I was able to facilitate by region. A lot of resistance that so I would bring the copies of the forum, leave the, there. And once I made all the stops at all eighteen counties. I started back again; I would spend the day sitting in their office. He tried to put me in some office, nope, I want to be right in the middle of everything. They set me up an office and I would sit right beside the big card catalog they had. And I would pull out the letter "A," start typing. So, I got these forms. And I think, I shamed them because by the second time around, they were already doing it. So, we started the process to get a statewide voter registration letter. And then to put it on the state computers, getting started to computerize legislation, which we now have, I think in all fifty states.

SM: 1:09:21
Right. Wow, you were involved in some important work.

DK: 1:11:24
I was doing some good work, I enjoyed it.

SM: 1:11:27
My golly, and you know, what I really admire is that, you know, you had this setback in your, well, a major setback in your life, you never planned to be in a wheelchair, and you still went on with your life and you are doing good things. And you are giving back to is, it is, it is all about giving back to others.

DK: 1:11:46
Yeah.

SM: 1:11:47
And you are obviously, you know, the-the injury in terms of wheelchair accessibility, I look at campuses now. And I am sure, I even do it at Kent State when I visit, because that has been a big issue at where I used to work at Westchester, that all buildings needed to be accessible by wheelchair. And we still have one building at Westchester University that will not do it, because it is on the Historic Register. And if they had to do what they had to, they have to take some stones off of the-the outside of the building. I do not know where they are with that, but it is still wrong. The rest of the campus is all accessible, but one building is not.

DK: 1:12:26
[inaudible] After I got hurt, and I was hauled away, even before I got home, when I was in the hospital. I mean, I was visited by people from I do not know how many states, but it was a lot of different states. It was all, it was in the summer, I was in the Rehab Center in Cleveland. And people would drop in out of the sky blue- professors, students and, you know, student leaders from various private and small colleges and big colleges. All came and brought me books, to spend time with them. And church leaders, many denominations came to visit me while I was in the rehab center. And so, you know, there is all this discussion about, you know, "What are you going to do next?" Well, "I want to go back and finish my education and be a productive member of society." And I got a lot of support for all of that. And I really never, never, I never had any other feeling. And the same with my family, you know, my mother heard that I would go on vacation and do something in society, whether it be, you know, working in a local community or whatever. So yeah, I mean, there was no hesitation by any of my friends, my colleagues, or acquaintances that I was not going to get up and go be a part of society. That was never even in my head to begin with that I would not withdraw from society-that I would withdraw from society, that would be a productive member of society. So yeah, there was just not there was no-no hesitation by anybody, or me. I knew I was alive. The thing here is I was thankful that I was alive. I could have been dead because you get hit with a 30-06 m1 caliber rifle. That is the same weapon my father carried in World War Two. And my father, now to the day he died, was so angry that I was shot by the same rifle that he carried World War Two.

SM: 1:14:45
Wow.

DK: 1:14:47
[inaudible] that the M1 Garand was used to shoot me, but he used it to help save the world from tyranny.

SM: 1:14:53
Wow.

DK: 1:14:54
Yeah, that is, that is-

SM: 1:14:57
That is, that is something. I did not know that.

DK: 1:15:01
Yeah, one sad part of his life he never overcame.

SM: 1:15:06
Wow.

DK: 1:15:07
Yeah.

SM: 1:15:10
Over the years, when did you get to know the people that were also wounded at Kent State, and also the families of those who had died?

DK: 1:15:19
Within a year, within a year, I got to meet them. Because, you know, there was lawyers who were representing all of us. All those lawyers got together, and all those lawyers got all the families together. And we started dealing with the strategy of how we were going to deal with this issue. We were going to hold the state of Ohio accountable for what they did. And so that is where I met them, I met them at a hotel in downtown Cleveland. But I had also met many of the students who were wounded at Kent State because many of them were still going to school-

SM: 1:16:04
Right.

DK: 1:16:06 -at Kent State. So yeah. That is how I met everybody.

SM: 1:16:15
The remembrance events now, in linkage to this tragedy. This murder, as some of the programs have described what, there has been 49 years of, I believe in the very beginning, though, you were not allowed to have remembrance events? Or I do not know what was going on here that in the early stages, but this is-?

DK: 1:16:41
Oh, [inaudible]

SM: 1:16:41
Pardon?

DK: 1:16:43 Yeah, it was a year later, they had a big commemoration. [inaudible] commemoration September of (19)70. Phil Ochs, Bang, I met the Reverend Ralph Abernathy there, I forget the other celebrities that were there as well. When you were talking about people who were, you know, baby boomers and Richie Havens. Richie Havens, I think of Phil Ochs at the same time.

SM: 1:17:09
Oh, yes, definitely.

DK: 1:17:11
Yeah. And so, you know, I met all those people as well. And there was a large contingency of Vietnam Veterans Against the War. And those guys were the ones that actually took care of me. When I went back in September of (19)70, they were there, and they were around me so that nothing would happen to me.

SM: 1:17:41
How did your- how did your parents get through all this? Now, obviously, they were there for you as their son, but how- your mom and dad, how did they react to this the same or differently?

DK: 1:17:55
Well, they both react differently. Yeah, my mother, being a being a woman, obviously, is very verbal. But the comparison I like to make is that my mother gained 50 pounds, my father lost 50 pounds. And when I talked to my neighbors later on, as I got older, I talked to my neighbors about the whole thing and found out that we had one neighbor that they went and talked to, and one neighbor describes my dad coming up there and just crying with his head on the table. And my and she would also then describe how my mother was just so anguished about what happened. And then then my siblings, you know, my sister when she got home from school, found out about it, and my parents were already in Robinson Memorial Hospital at that point in time. So, my sister basically ran the family. She was two years younger than I am. So, she was a Senior High School, and she was basically taking care of my other two siblings. I had three other siblings, I had two sisters and a brother. And she is just now in the last few years, started to talk to me about it about how [inaudible] it was and how frightening it was and how scary it was between mom and dad, the way they were reacting to what happened. And, you know, it really made a big impression on her.

SM: 1:19:36
What did you personally learn from going through this tragic event?

DK: 1:19:39
Well, I learned that, you know, we live in a participatory democracy and if you do not participate, you get run over. And I have, every speech I have given in my lifetime, I have always told people to register to vote. Fighting the issues, fighting the candidates and then vote. I also, I also tell people that they have to be involved. You do not have to run for office like the US Senate or whatever. You know, there is lots of kinds of things that you can do. You can either run [inaudible] Trustees, village council, you can also, you do not want to run for office, you can work on various boards and commissions, that public officials make appointments to. You know, children's services, MRDD, Alcohol and Drug Addiction committees, all kinds of activities out there that you can be involved in and be part of your government. You know, you have to, you have to be involved in making your local government thrive. [inaudible] Democracy [inaudible] like I said, it is a participatory sport. You have to be involved. You are not involved; you are not making a decision and it is important to be an active productive member of society. But I have included that in every one of my speeches.

SM: 1:21:07
It is very important. Excellent. You know Kim Phuc, the girl in the picture from the Vietnam War?

DK: 1:21:16
Yeah.

SM: 1:21:17
Yeah, we brought her to our campus, and she talks about the whole issue of healing and so forth. I want to just; I wrote this comment down and from about her and linking with you and I want your thoughts. Kim Phuc, the girl in the picture, has devoted her life to healing and sending messages that healing is the best way to overcome tragedy. She forgives the, the, the pilots, who dropped bombs on her village where she was burned over 80 percent of her body, and she lost her brother.

DK: 1:21:51
Right.

SM: 1:21:51
A pain she has every day she lives with every day in her life. Have you been able to heal from a different tragedy in some way, knowing that the National Guard that did this committed a terrible crime, murder of four and wounding of nine, and will pay in the end, but you have moved on in your life and have, have you healed a little bit yourself?

DK: 1:22:17
I had to work at forgiveness. And I think forgiveness is more than just saying, "I forgive," It is something you have to do regularly, almost daily, sometimes. Because I have a constant reminder about what happened to me. That reminds me of the four key students who were killed. But, you know, I am not going to forget, I wish at some point in time, one of them would give us a deathbed confession about what really happened. And, you know, it is important. And I think one of the reasons none of them have spoken up is because murder has no statute of limitations. And they are all afraid. The governor and their general were able to scare the daylights out of those people, so they are never going to talk. I just hope at some point in time, one of them will do a deathbed confession about what really went on that particular day. So yeah, I have moved on. But I have not forgotten.

SM: 1:23:21
Yeah. And Dean, is it? Is it true that most of the, most of the guys that were in the National Guard have died?

DK: 1:23:29
I do not know. They were not. There were not 18- 20-year-olds, like everybody talks about. [inaudible] were all close to 30 years old, so I would not doubt that they are getting [inaudible], several of them have died already.

SM: 1:23:47
Right. Well, maybe, would not that be interesting if we could get one of those people to come to the event next year and tell the truth?

DK: 1:23:57
Yeah.

SM: 1:23:57
Would not that be and-and I think that person even though he committed to, he committed a crime, would probably get support from those in attendance.

DK: 1:24:09
[agreement]

SM: 1:24:10
Finally, being honest and truthful. Do you see anything in America today? How would you define the divide you see in America today in (20)19, in (20)19, are there any links to the divide in (19)70?

DK: 1:24:26
Well, the only link that I see between the divide now and divide then is the fact that, to use modern terminology, they use of hate speech as continues to prevail in our society. Back that we used to call it radical rhetoric by the right or the conservatives or Republicans [inaudible] point, but I think that is the only real link that we have today. I think what we have here today is a want to be authoritarian or want to be dictator, who is frightened because he is such a corrupt person, that he does not know the consequences of his actions. Whereas Richard Nixon was very aware of the consequences of his actions and was a little more maniacal in the sense of knowing the limits of his authority, and the responsibilities he had with the office. This particular tyrant does not know the limits of the building [inaudible] knows the responsibilities that goes with the office. And then there is a small group of people out there who have no limits to begin with. And I think those are his ardent followers. So obviously, Nixon had his ardent followers, but, you know, they were they were quelled by the fact that Nixon knew the responsibilities and the job that he is after, where this guy does not know the responsibility of either. So.

SM: 1:26:20
Got a couple more questions here that just give me the hi-sign here. I did not know this. I had to leave at 4:50. I thought was going to be here till 5.

DK: 1:26:29
Oh.

SM: 1:26:29
Let me go try to get, here is one. What do you think the lasting legacy of the (19)60s and (19)70s is?

DK: 1:26:39
Well, I am not afraid to give credit where credit is due the Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, you know, who sponsored those [inaudible]. The improvement of women's lives going forward a little bit as well. I think the improvement, the little improvement there is for the civil rights of African Americans and people who were different. The fact that, you know, people in society were not afraid to speak up about the war. There was a war, that we, that hasn't stopped our society from allowing it to happen. So, it is a mixed review. Obviously, some good things have happened. And the lessons have not been learned. Because we-we repeat some of those historical lessons that children learn. So yeah, it is an era and a time of turbulence, and education, and change. But like all eras, or generations, you never get 100 percent of what you want.

SM: 1:27:50
Right.

DK: 1:27:52
There will be forces out there that control the levers of power.

SM: 1:27:57
Do you think we as a nation have healed since the Vietnam War as a nation, Jan Scruggs wrote a book, "To Heal a Nation." And when he wrote that book, it was about healing the Vietnam veterans who had served in that war, the ones who, obviously the families of those who died. And, and then, of course, and he and he knew he was his effort, when the-the wall opened in (19)82, that veterans are finally saying, we were welcomed home for the first time. Have we healed as a nation since the war?

DK: 1:28:31
I think we have partially healed as a nation since the war. I still see the fact that veterans are dying because of their exposure to Agent Orange, getting those diseases that go along with it. And the VA's still struggling to take care of those veterans. And you have got the big chasm, the big polarization that is going on between people who were considerate and trying to make the world a better place and those who want to abuse and take advantage of the resources and the society that we have. You know, so. And is the fact that the rich keep finding excuses to deny equal pay to people of all economic status, status, statuses. But yeah, I do not think we [inaudible] heal but part of society has, some parts [inaudible] along the way.

SM: 1:29:41
And then I will probably end with this, Dean because they just told me I thought I had till, I thought I had two hours here. 10 more minutes, but I am going [inaudible]. In a few sentences, or less, or even maybe a paragraph, describe the (19)60s and (19)70s in the way that only Dean can describe it.

DK: 1:30:09
Well, for me personally, it was a period of growth and development. It is also a period of understanding responsibility of being a member of this great Republic that we live in. And learning the lessons that democracy only works if you participate and being part of the process of making government work. In the (19)60s, and (19)70s, (19)70s were a period of growth and development and learning to become a productive member of society. And also learning to live by life in such a way that I am proud of what I have done, and that other people can learn from examples that I, the way I have lived my life. I think that would be the probably the best way to describe.

SM: 1:31:07
Do you ever, do you ever feel feelings like some people have, but others do not have. Why me? [crosstalk] Was I am in the wrong place at the wrong time? I mean, why do you ever have that feeling?

DK: 1:31:24 I do not have those feelings now. But in the early days, [inaudible] after I got hurt was in and out in the rehab center and stuff, I felt that. But then I went through some good psychological counseling to deal with the issue of [inaudible] my disability, being a strong, strapping farm boy and an athlete, to understand that I can still be a strong, strapping athlete and a productive member of society through that counseling that I got, and no, I have not felt those feelings in, you know, nearly 50 years at this point in time.

SM: 1:31:58
You know, it is amazing. Kim Phuc's story is a little bit like yours, but in with different circumstances. She is a very religious person, very religious. And if you have seen her, we brought her to the, well, I wish she could come to the, to the 50th anniversary, I just, it is about healing. It is about, it is about forgiving, and a lot of things but religion plays a very important part. She has got 80 percent of her body is burned.

DK: 1:32:01
Right.

SM: 1:32:28
But it has not deterred her spirit of healing and forgiveness. And you do not have to forgive people who have done things. But in the mere fact that you were paralyzed from the waist down by a tragedy, but you have used your experience to help the lives of others.

DK: 1:32:49
Yeah.

SM: 1:32:49
With your work and government with all these other things, you and Kim are two peas in a pod. You need to be in a room, you need to be in a room together and shut the door and just talk for four hours. I mean, I am serious because you have had different stories. Very serious tragedies. But you have moved on with your life and helping others.

DK: 1:33:15
I have always admired her story. There is no doubt about that.

SM: 1:33:19
Well, I am, I am in the process of getting a hold of her to okay her interview with me because I got pretty close to her when she came to Westchester. But in my email to her, I am going to say I would love to someday, if you can get a link up with Dean. I think I think if you could have just a conversation, just the two of you talking together. Maybe one day that can happen.

DK: 1:33:43
That would be nice. That would be nice. I would enjoy that.

SM: 1:33:46
Now, the last thing I am going to say is, is there any question I did not ask that you expect, you thought I might ask?

DK: 1:33:53
Well, actually, you are pretty thorough. And if you have any future questions, do not be afraid to get a hold.

SM: 1:33:58
Yeah, well, I have been cut about 20 minutes off my interview here, but I will let you know that Dean. And-

DK: 1:34:04
Well, I will keep this phone number in my directory with your name, so.

SM: 1:34:08
Okay, yep. Okay, will do and what will happen here as we will be after this interview, the Center here will get the tape, they will mail it to your email address. So, I need your email address.

DK: 1:34:24
It is just my first name and my last name deantaylor@gmail.com.

SM: 1:34:31
Okay. At gmail.com?

DK: 1:34:35
Yep.

SM: 1:34:36
Alright, I do not know when they are going to do it, but I just, you are the second interview I had today, and they will send it to you for you to listen to and okay it. And then I think I have a picture of you already that I took of you, so I do not have to worry about a picture. So.

DK: 1:34:50
Okay.

SM: 1:34:51
All right, Dean, thank you very much. May God bless and may you continue to be, you know, be healthy. I will be thinking of you as you are battling. I guess you are not feeling very good right now.

DK: 1:35:05
I am feeling good. I just felt hurt myself two years ago, and I have had all kinds of complications related since then. But I am getting there. I am getting to the point where my body is healing, so I am in good shape.

SM: 1:35:18
Well, you are very important person to be around. So, you know, I look forward to seeing you at Kent State. Definitely next year.

DK: 1:35:27
Absolutely.

SM: 1:35:28
And, and I will be in touch with you, you thank you very much.

DK: 1:35:32
You are welcome, Steve. Take care.

SM: 1:35:33
Yeah, you bet. Bye now.

(End of Interview)

8/7/2019

Stephen McKiernan

Dean Kahler

Dean Kahler grew up on a farm in East Canton, Ohio. In his youth, Dean received criticism because he was a pacifist and did not support the war in Vietnam. After high school, he attended Kent State University, enrolling in the teaching program. On May 4, 1970, Dean was shot in the lower back by Ohio National Guardsmen who were sent to quell the protests on Campus that had occurred days prior. Dean lost his ability to walk, however, that did not stop him from pursuing a career in teaching and becoming elected to public office. Since then, Dean has been a leading force in the push for handicap reforms all across the state of Ohio.

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Anti-Vietnam; Ohio; south; farming; Church; politics; 1960s; protest; gender roles; Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Kent State; pacifism; boomers; Kent State Shootings