Interview with John Burns Jr.

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: John Burns Jr.
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: 7 August 2019
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(Start of Interview)

00:00
SM: All right. Let me put you on the, on the speakerphone. Hold on. Can you hear me?

00:11
JB: Yeah.

00:11
SM: Okay, great. Yep, that comes over good. Well, first off, I want to [crosstalk], I want to thank you, Mr. Burns for agreeing to do this. I was a big fan of your dad. He was here when I was a student at Binghamton. So, but–

00:25
JB: Right-right.

00:26
SM: –but–

00:27
JB: Okay, [crosstalk]

00:28
SM: The first question, the first question I want to ask is if you could tell me a little bit about yourself growing your-your growing up years, where were you grew up, your family. Those early influences on your life.

00:41
JB: Yeah. Okay. So, you want me to start right now on that?

00:50
SM: Yes.

00:52
JB: Okay. Well, let us see. I am the fourth oldest of 12 children of John and Theresa Burns. John Burns was when I was growing up, he became- I was born in (19)51. The last day of (19)51. He-he was elected mayor in (19)57, and started his term in (19)58, what could have been (19)58 or (19)58. Anyway. So, I was [inaudible] as a young kid, he became mayor. Those were the days of urban renewal. I will get flowing here [inaudible]. Alright, so. So, growing up, you know, a lot of this, Kennedy related relates to my father and his background, and then, you know, I was I was part of it. But so anyway, so I grew up in a house back in (19)50s, early (19)60s, they paid the mayor 15,000 a year. So, we, so we were not rich, and we were not totally poor. But that was just the way it was. So-so we were Irish Catholic. My father was a was elected mayor. He followed another Democrat that had served two terms. And Binghamton at that time was two to one Republican. And so urban renewal and the and the dawn of the American highway system. That was what was going at the, in those days, early (19)60s. The, you know, they were putting a highway route 81 and 17. That is what Binghamton is the capital of two rivers, the Susquehanna and Chenango rivers and the-the two highways of 17 and 81, and now 17 I think it is getting converted to 86. So anyway, so there was, you know, there is a lot of complaining about urban renewal, you know, that they were tearing down buildings that were historic, and a lot of there is a lot of truth to that, that you know, that they were tearing down historic buildings, to replace with, you know, modern, what have you, and parking, but at the same time, there was no money in those days to restore those kinds of buildings. They did, they did keep a lot of buildings, you know, Binghamton still has a lot of nice historic buildings, but they did have to make room for multi-level parking lots, you know, new, they built a new city hall, etc., etc. But John Burns was part of that. John you know, Mayor John Burns as part of that, but he was not, you know, like the only driving force, you know, they took administration before him to get the ball rolling. So anyway, John Burns, at that time Robert Kennedy you know, as you know, President Kennedy was assassinated in (19)63. And so about I do not know, a year after that, or two years after that. Attorney General, I guess it was the former Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, started a campaign and started putting together a campaign to run for the United States Senate from New York. And I remember they called him a carpet bagger and what kinds of things but there was a lot, he was a popular guy. People loved him. And, you know, a lot of you know, came from just the Kennedy family in general. But so anyways, his-his main residence was in Alexandria, Virginia, we actually went down there once and visited at a big fundraiser they had. But anyway, so-so, as I recall, Senator Kennedy asked my father, to assist him, as maybe his upstate campaign manager, I guess you would call it, I do not know, if there was an official title. And then Mayor Wagner of New York was the you know, the downstate campaign manager, and you would see them both at different events in Albany with-with the Attorney General. So then, my father, oh no, I got to, I got to tell you. Just go back two years, I think or one year. My father ran, he was drafted at the convention to run against Rockefeller and Wilson, and the Democratic ticket was Robert Morgenthau and John Burns. And, and that was what gave him the Upstate notoriety and relationships that he developed with other mayors and executives in upstate New York, you know, Rochester, Buffalo, Albany. So, you know, because of that suicide mission of running for governor against Rockefeller, the, you know, it helped his political career. You know, notoriety in the state and downstate too, so. So, then, so Kennedy decides to run, my father is, is helping him with the upstate campaign, he travels around the state with him, and they become fast friends. And there was some synergy between them, you know, they were both all Irish, my father's 100 percent Irish family that came to the country in (18)48 famines. And-and anyway, so, you know, his great, grandfather, came from Ireland, that kind of. So, let us see. So-so they became good friends, John Burns had 12 children, and oh, was-was having 12 children during that time. And, and Kennedy had, I do not know, I think he had like, 10 or 11, or something like that. Yeah, he had 11 kids, so we had him beat on that one. Anyway, yeah that is right. So, they were, they were good friends. You know, during that period, my father, you know, we always tell a couple of stories about how my mother's home during the week, and Dad was, well, this is after the well, getting ahead of myself. So, my father tells us one story he calls up, you know, we every-every Saturday, my father would go to city hall when he was mayor into work, and he would not be you know, disturbed by appointments and things like that. So, he would go into the office and there would not be any staff there. But my mother would stop and say you are not leaving me with all these kids. You have to take the boys. So, the boys would go to city hall with Dad in the old 1800 City Hall, fabulous place.

08:48
SM: He had 11. Yes, yeah.

09:47
JB: Anyway, so we would always like you know, just run wild through you know, city council chambers and, you know, press all the buttons and that led.

09:58
SM: Yeah.

09:59
JB: So Anyway, so one day says we are there on Saturday, I listen to boys. He says, I am making a very important phone call. And no one pick up the phone. No one start pressing these buttons. Very important call. So just you know, have fun, but do not do not play with the phone. So, anyways, he is calling the residents of Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, wants to talk to him. And so, he calls and Butler, somebody answers the phone, he says, "I would like to speak to, this is Mayor John Burns of Binghamton." And so, you know, he says "hold on please" so he goes to go see Robert Kennedy, and all the sudden he hears a click on the phone. He goes, "who is that?" He goes, "Joey, is that you?" And Joey says, he says, "what?" Says, "get off this phone, you dirty rat." Joe, and Joe Kennedy says, "what?" He goes, "is this Joey Burns?" He goes, "no, this is Joe Kennedy." He goes, "Oh, I am sorry, auuuugh."

11:17
SM: [laughs] What a story!

11:18
JB: [Inaudible] Kennedy [inaudible]. So anyway, he told that quite a few times. But anyway, you know, they became good friends, they would be, you know, on the campaign trail. And, you know, he would be you know, dealing with, you know, that I do not know, if it was the Presidential- probably further down the road, you know, you know, they are, you know, you would be in the hotel room with Kennedy be in the next room taking a shower, they would be yelling back and forth about what they are doing, what is next. Anyway, so Kennedy was, and so he is, at that point, the highest elected Democratic official in New York State, because there was [inaudible] other statewide candidate or statewide officer who was left [inaudible]. He was a controller. And then you had, you know, the Republican, you know, [inaudible] Wilson, you had, Senator, I do not know why I cannot think of who the other one was but––

12:29
SM: Was it Keating?

12:30
JB: Keating I think is the seat that was open for Kennedy.

12:33
SM: Oh okay. Very good.

12:34
JB: Yeah. And, and the other one was, I just do not remember, sorry. So-so anyway. So, Kennedy wins. Everybody is really excited. He takes over the Democratic Party. And he picks and chooses just like the governor does now who is going to be the state chairman and you know all that stuff. And so, so they generally would pick a guy from upstate New York, because it kind of ties the party together, because there is such a dichotomy between the needs, and the interests of upstate New York versus the, you know, New York City area. So-so anyways, I do not know if that [inaudible], but there is different ventures. So-so John Burns is Kennedy's choice, he becomes the democratic state chairman. And that changes our lives in Binghamton because he retires as mayor, you know he gives up his mayoral seat. And then they-they, they did not elect, they just voted an appointment for a year. They appointed my Uncle Bill Burns, which Bill looks like a little nepotism there, but I do not know. Anyway. So-so turns out that Kennedy-Kennedy, becomes the state chair- or John Burns becomes a state chairman and he now, or even before that was wearing his PT-109 [inaudible] And I do not know, did you ever hear about that?

14:18
SM: No, I did not hear about that.

14:22
JB: That was the sign that you were part of the Kennedy organization, is if you had a PT-109 plug on your side.

14:32
SM: Right, because of Jack, yeah.

14:35
JB: They came from-from the President Kennedy's election, but you know, they carried over. I just gave mine to my brother Joe. So anyway, I found one in New York in a Flea Market, a real one. It was like, "Oh my God, this guy has no idea what I have got in my hand," you know. So, anyway-

15:03
SM: What happened to your dad's? What happened to your dad's?

15:07
JB: One of my brothers probably stole it. I think that he has it, but when my parents died, it was like, you know a free for all. You know, I plan on taking this and I will walk into an apartment, you know, or at someone's house or my sister's houses and I will see like, some, you know, painting that they cherished, you know, that they get, I was the executor of the estate, what was she doing with painting on the wall.

15:41
SM: I was I was in your mom and dad's apartment when I interviewed them.

15:47
JB: Yeah, yeah. So those are the pictures. Yeah, but they all abscond. Anyway, let us see. So- so-so yeah, so dad, you know, he explained to us about PT-109 boat. But so, he, you know, developed, his world changed. You know, he went from a little guy in Binghamton, New York to the Democratic state general with a with a hotel suite upstairs in the Dryden East Hotel. Down in the basement was the offices that democratic state committee and the democratic state committee had a, or the-the Democratic Chairman, there were different rules back then. And there was a different power structure back then. And a lot of that was rectified. But came up when, you know, McCarthy was running for president and then McGovern's people came the next time, and they changed the rules of the state of national convention, the chairman had the lion's share of the, of the delegate assignments, you know, they had, they only elected, you know, it was it was more of a, you know, it was not a majority of the, of the delegates elected, you know, in the local elections, the chairman would hand out these things. So, that being said, you know, like the McCarthys and Humphreys, and these guys, you know, they came calling because after Kennedy died, you know, they want they knew, who had all the delegates, it was the chairman. McCarthy did a great job of getting people elected and their mailing, you know, we had to jump them way ahead, but.

17:58
SM: Right.

17:59
JB: You know, their mailing of letters, you know, requesting the state chairman to support McCarthy, even before, even before Kennedy died. But once he died, you know, we in my house we would receive, you know, hip height, bundles of letters from everywhere. And, you know, all, you know, reaching out, and requesting that, John Burns support McCarthy, I will get back to that. So, alright, so, so now, Kennedy, Kennedy is the United States Senator. And he is very popular as far as, as far as our lives are, we loved the guy. And we were like all, we were all, you know, really paying attention to politics. And really, you know, in it, you know. Of course, you know, my father would come home on weekends and he would be in New York most of the week, but he did have offices here, the old [inaudible] at 50 Front street, now there is a new apartment building down there. That was where the offices were for Binghamton, for the state chairman. And then and then we our lives changed in that you know, we were, we would be in New York a lot. We would go to a lot of the big dinners and, and, you know, and it was, it was a lot of notoriety of, you know, this Irish guy Burns with his 12 kids, you know. And when we were when he was campaigning for lieutenant governor, prior to Kennedy's, Kennedy's, in fact, that was before (19)6- there must have been (19)62 I think, because that was before President Kennedy died. We have, here is an interesting note. When Morgenthau Burns ticket was running, and they were running as Rockstar, during that time, was the was the Russian missile crisis. You know-

20:20
SM: [Inaudible] yes.

20:20
JB: –Jeff Kennedy thing, you know, Cuban Mission, Cuban Missile Crisis. And-and during that time, it was in the fall or in the summer, and they were campaigning Burns, and Morgenthau and Burns were campaigning. And this is this is, we have a picture of the president, Robert Morgenthau and, and John Burns.

20:46
SM: Wow.

20:47
JB: And that picture, like it is a, it is a palm card. You know, I have it. In fact, I will send you a picture of it.

20:55
SM: Yes.

20:55
JB: So, understand, at that time, when they were in this motorcade, and they were in New York, and they were campaigning with the president United States. If you have watched the movie 13 days [crosstalk]

21:14
SM: Yes, I saw it, yes, I did.

21:16
JB: During that movie, there was a point where there was the big showdown, and his advisors in the White House that look, you got to go out, you know, people need to see you. You got to go out and act normal and be seen and give confidence and stuff, right. So that is where he went. In that picture of Morgenthau, Kennedy Morgenthau and Burns, was during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

21:47
SM: Oh my gosh.

21:49
JB: Yeah, yep. That is a fact. And then, so I had this, I used to have this picture of it with these captions. And [inaudible] but captured over-over Morgenthau says, "We are going to get our ass kicked." And then over Burns it said, "What am I doing here?" And then under- over Kennedy, it said, "We are all going to die."

22:18
SM: [laughs] Well that is not funny, but you know.

22:20
JB: Yeah, right. So anyway, so-so the, so that that was an interesting point in time.

22:30
SM: How did-

22:34
JB: Then I was gone for I went to Ireland with my brother Patrick. We went to Newbridge College. The county [inaudible] there is a boys boarding school of Dominican monks. My father was, became friendly with Paul O'Dwyer and a couple of these Irish born fellows that the guy that owned all the Blarney stones. You know, Paul O'Dwyer?

23:01
SM: Oh, yes, I do. Yeah, that white hair. Yeah. That white hair and-

23:05
JB: Yeah.

23:05
SM: Yep.

23:06
JB: Yeah. Those-those eyebrows.

23:07
SM: Yes.

23:08
JB: Those white eyebrows.

23:08
SM: Yes.

23:10
JB: Yeah. His brother was the president city council in New York too. So anyway, and Paul O'Dwyer, Paul O'Dwyer defended the Ayatollah Khomeini. Everybody deserves to have a lawyer.

23:22
SM: My God, I did not know that either. Wow!

23:26
JB: Yeah, he represented Khomeini. But anyway, he also ran for Senate you know after Kennedy was done. Anyway, so where are we so it is the (19)60s. The President has gone. And Senator Robert F. Kennedy and then, then the Presidential thing starts going, you know, like, the Johnson, he is running for reelection, gets, he gets reelected, did not he?

24:06
SM: Yes, he did, he got-

24:07
JB: Oh, no, he gets elected.

24:08
SM: He got elec- Johnson got, in (19)64 he won big and then he withdrew before the next one.

24:16
JB: Yes, yes. And when he withdrew, you know, they were campaigning, and Dad was, you know, like, winning against [inaudible]. When Kennedy announced for that he was going to run against a sitting Democratic president as the United States senator, and that United States senator, that was a powerful-powerful thing. And, and, you know, most political people in the country, you know, thought this guy was just committing political suicide here. He was running against a sitting president, Democrat, and they did not think they would do that well. I-I think, I do not know, you might know better than me. But so, when he announced, he had to show strength, he had to show where there was support and things like that. And the first place he went after announcing was to a testimonial dinner for John Burns and banks in New York.

25:24
SM: I did not know that either.

25:25
JB: It was Binghamton.

25:26
SM: Oh, wow.

25:28
JB: He came to Binghamton. And because you know it, first, you got to show that your-your Democratic Chairman in the state, you are from is for you, and that he is showing up with people that are Kennedy people, you know, there was plenty of people that were not Kennedy people in this state. But-but, you know, they, you know, they knew how to, you know, build momentum, and you know, how to show support.

25:55
SM: Was there any pressure with-

25:57
JB: Dinner for Dad, and then they had a dinner for Kennedy here. But I think it was. I do not know what the data that was, but I have the programs for both.

26:09
SM: Oh, my gosh.

26:10
JB: And let us see. So-so Kennedy started campaigning, and going around the country and doing his thing. And it was, you know, it was tough. McCarthy was running against them. Or no. He-he challenged McCarthy.

26:30
SM: Yeah.

26:31
JB: That would be- yeah.

26:33
SM: I interviewed Senator McCarthy, my very first person I interviewed back in (19)96.

26:38
JB: Wow.

26:39
SM: And when I asked the question about Bobby, you could see he was still upset even though Bobby is long gone. And, and he said, he said, "Read it in my book." Because–

26:53
JB: Oh, wow.

26:53
SM: –McCarthy had written. Yeah, I know, there was some there was some tension going on. And also, at the (19)68 convention after Bobby had been killed. And I got questions I want to ask you about LA and all the other things. But McCarthy disappeared at that, at that convention. I mean, he-he just like, why did, he just everything, when Bobby died, it seemed like he died. I mean, it was just like, I could not understand it.

27:20
JB: Well, he was still around. I mean, he was still running, in fact my father told me when we were getting all those letters and all that thing that I was like, asking my dad about like, "What about this, what about that?" And he said- you know, I might have a video of me asking him this stuff. But anyway, he said that. He said, he says, you know, he said, "I wanted to support McCarthy. You know, like what he represented, and his, you know, level of integrity, you know, to do what he was doing and everything" he says, "I wanted nothing more than to support Joe McCarthy. He said, you know, he says he was being solicited by, you know Hubert Humphrey was like, hot on the trail. They meet in restaurants and help you make a big deal and chairman and blah, blah, blah. But anyway. So, he said that McCarthy came to his office, and they sat down. And he said that, you know, the guy just did not light a fire. He was very, you know, kind of like a professor.

28:38
SM: Yes.

28:39
JB: We really liked your support. And he was not like a, you know, you know, he just lost Bobby Kennedy. Kennedy had a fire in his belly. And, you know, he was ready to go, you know.

28:52
SM: Right.

28:52
JB: And he just, you know, was not exciting. He thought, you know, he says "I got a lot, I had a lot of on the line at that point, and if I backed the guy that you know, was going to lose and just did not have any excitement to him," he said, you know, "I want to get first as well." And so anyway, he said he wanted his support but he said and, and he, John Burns, you know, they got assigned all these Kennedy chair- all these Kennedy delegates. A lot of them were elected, and a lot of them got appointed, and all that. And then, of course, the McCarthyites, you know, are worse, you know, they are at the other end of this left spectrum you know. And kind of like these days, you know, and so, you know, they are all willing to go, you know, like commit suicide, you know, harry carry over, you know, I always say that any candidate that can-can get enough con- political contributions to get elected president, I would not vote for. You know what I mean? I do not mean that. But I make it as, you know, a joke. Like, you know, anybody that did not raise enough money to get elected I would support, you know, it is like, gradual marketing, where you have me as member of their club I would not join. But anyway, so, where are we? So.

30:39
SM: To Bobby's running.

30:40
JB: [Inaudible] talking about, you know, running for president, he declares his candidacy. Everybody is just very excited. You know like, who is going to be next with the Burns family, I mean you know. That would have been really good for us on a political level, you know, maybe Washington or maybe Irish Ambassador or [crosstalk]. And when I was this, this is kind of an interesting little sidebar, when I was a student at Newbridge College in a secondary school, you know, it was high school in Ireland. My father came to visit. And Aer Lingus has got word of it. And at that time, Pan Am was trying to get into Ireland, be able to fly into Ireland. And I think that the Irish were resisting it or something. I do not know the exact, you know, stuff what was going on, but, but I know Aer Lingus is wanting to cozy up to Burns because they think he had some kind of power. You know, it was a national thing that the United States Senate would vote on. So anyway, Kennedy's support. So, when he came over to visit at Easter time that he like, you know, they had him on the front page of Irish Independent or, you know, the government paper. And you know, him holding us some shamrocks and his hand, somebody greeting them from either Aer Lingus or whatever. And then we went to Phoenix Park is where the, I think Ambassador lived. And we went to an event there and then the Secretary of the Interior, whatever his title is in Ireland, they brought him to dinner and they were really floozing him. We traveled around the country. We went to a hotel, they would have, we would walk into the lobby of a hotel, they have all these flowers, champagne bottles, or champagne. Big deal. So, my father is trying to tell him "okay," you know, "I do not really, you know, I do not really have any say in this matter." But, uh, you know, I mean, truth be said, I mean, he probably did have some influence on it. And he probably, you know, would have, you know, Kennedy smile or something, you know what I mean, but I do not think would have had any real effect changing some national law.

33:37
SM: How long were you?

33:38
JB: But anyway.

33:38
SM: How long were you a student over there? How many years?

33:41
JB: I only stayed, I only stayed a year. My brother Pat- I did not want to go back because I was I was too homesick. I was like 14 years old. And but my brother Patrick, two years older than I, went back another year and graduated from the school. And, and that was why well, that was why it was a funeral in the wake. Patrick was not there because he was in Ireland.

34:07
SM: Right. You duck talking about the- could you talk about that a little more about that year (19)68. Your dad was obviously, you know, vowed with, that whole year and then put it put prospectively your dad's thoughts on that year, and of course, Bobby's death and everything.

34:32
JB: Yeah. So, Bobby Kennedy died on June 6th. And so, when he died, you know, that just took the wind out of ourselves. I mean, everybody was crushed. And you know, what do you do, where do you go? You know, who is going to do what. And, and so, so let us see. So, I mean, you know, a lot of things were already scheduled set up, you know, Democratic Convention, all that stuff. And the delegates, you know, the primaries where they elect delegates. And so, so a lot of things were already done, Kennedy died. And they have to do the funeral, the wake and the funeral in New York. So anyway, we go to the we go to the event, we go to the wake. My father has gone, you know, in meetings most of the time, but, you know, we still had dinner and such. So, so we go to the wake, couple of my brothers, and a fella that was one of my close friends growing up. He was, he was like an adopted member of the family because his house was so far away from school and we lived right down the street. So, he lived in the third floor with us most of the time. And, Matt Ryan is his name, he later became the mayor of Binghamton. Anyway, so, so there was this moment, the way you know, we were, you know, then just thousands and thousands of people are coming in. And so, but they would switch out what did they call it? Ushers, now. We were not ushers, we were, you know, we would stand at the, at the casket. We were- now I cannot think of the term.

36:58
SM: Pallbearers?

37:00
JB: No, not pallbearers. We were guards, we were you know, well it will come to me in a second. So-so we stood, you know, and we stood I think it was like 15 minutes or 20 minutes or something after at the casket. And pall- not pallbearers, shit, what is it? Anyway, so we stood there for a while. And, and, you know, people would come, you know, we would be standing back from the casket or by, you know, a couple of feet there. Then, you know, people would walk to the casket and keep, you know, maybe touch the casket or something, walk by. And so, while we were there, Mrs. Martin Luther King, and her entourage, like Abernathy, you know, whoever else?

38:03
SM: Andrew Young?

38:04
JB: But, uh.

38:04
SM: Yeah.

38:05
JB: What is that?

38:06
SM: Andrew Young, was he part of?

38:08
JB: Yeah, I mean I am sure [inaudible] Andrew Young. But anyway, they came in and walked past us, you know, and that was another significant kind of poignant moment. That, you know, these are my, these are my- I do not know. So anyways, so they come by, and the last time that she had seen Bobby Kennedy, was Bobby Kennedy went to see her immediately, you know, after her husband was assassinated.

38:44
SM: Yes-yes.

38:46
JB: And, and so now she was standing there, you know, with his dead body. And yeah, it was just unbelievable. What was going on then, you know. And I call it my Forrest Gump moments. Because you are like [inaudible].

39:08
SM: Yes, you are right.

39:09
JB: So, I was, you know, I was, I was at these-these places, you know, like, it is like, wow. So, anyway, you know, we were there for that. And then the next day was the funeral. And I went, got a ticket for the funeral. I still have this ticket. And there is a stamp on it. That said train. And, and that was my pass onto the funeral train. I was on the train from New York to Washington where all the thousands and thousands of people were there, you know, and another Forrest Gump moment. And-

39:48
SM: Now it is not just you and your dad or was it other members of your family?

39:52
JB: I think [sighs] I think it was me I think it was me. And they put me in the, you know, the news car, you know, reporters and typers, all that stuff. And then, my mom and dad were up front in another car.

40:18
SM: Right.

40:21
JB: Anyway, on that, you know on that train ride Ethel Kennedy and her son, I think it was Joe. They came through, thanked everybody for coming in. That is right, I thought. And I had actually met them before, at their house, McLean. But you know, people they do not really there is so many people that they meet, you cannot expect they know. So anyway, I was on the train, and then I caught up with my parents when [inaudible] when we got there, and we went to the burial. And it was significant. He was a significant guy, you know, just an amazing guy [crosstalk].

41:15
SM: Now I want to ask you, how old were you when the funeral was happening?

41:20
JB: 17.

41:21
SM: What- you were a 17-year-old, you know, you got a-

41:25
JB: What year is this, (19)56, right?

41:27
SM: No, it was (19)68. (19)68, and I was born in (19)51. Yep, so I am always amazed. What- you, I can imagine what is going through your dad being a close friend of his, but you are the son. I mean, what can you reflect upon what you are going through mentally? You know, you are a 17-year-old person and you are looking up to a pound- you got dad who you are very proud of, and you have got a person that he works with and for, who he is very, you are very proud of, and then all of a sudden, he is gone.

42:05
JB: Yeah, it was, it was horrible. You know, that night that day. You know, the, you know, we were also you know, we were glued to the TV sets when-when the for the for the Oregon- is it the Oregon primary?

42:30
SM: Yeah, the Oregon-

42:30
JB: Then they came down to Cal- no, they were going to Oregon next, I think. He won California, right?

42:37
SM: Yes, he did.

42:39
JB: Yeah, he won California then the next primary, which he was on his way to having enough delegates, you know, he had a major shot there. I do not think anybody was going to stop him then. You know, so our, our segment, it was not just, you know, benefiting, you know, financially or anything else, the Burns family. It was the, the political ideals and the leadership of-of, of this guy.

43:23
SM: Yeah.

43:23
JB: But, you know, that was, you know, that was, you know, it was so dynamic and, you know, we were all, you know, [crosstalk] wrapped up in it. You know, we were, we believe we were believers, you know what I mean?

43:41
SM: Well–

43:41
JB: We believed in America, and helping and helping people, integration issues, you know, the things that he worked on, and he believed and the Viet- I mean the Vietnam War, we were all, you know, we were all you know, on board with, you know, with all of those things. And, you know, we were the young ones really, you know we were 17, younger.

44:14
SM: Were you in Los Angeles, were you and your dad in Los Angeles?

44:18
JB: Now we were on, we were at 123 Leroy Street, watching the TV. And then I went to bed. And Matt Ryan was watching TV down in the living room with somebody, couple of the kids. And then he got shot, and Matt woke me up and told me, and then we went to [inaudible] watch TV and it was, he was gone. Bam-bam, bam.

44:44
SM: You know, it was really, you probably know when Bobby attended the funeral for, at Ebenezer Baptist Church. He was sitting on the left side of the church and he was made the front cover of a magazine because the sun was coming through the side window. And that was focusing on him. And that was during the funeral of Dr. King–

45:05
JB: Wow.

45:05
SM: -and he had tears in his eyes to during that, in that picture and, and one of the things that, and I like your comment on this, earlier in Bobby's career, he was considered a pretty tough cookie, you know, he was with his brother on those, those committees against some of those, I guess they are [crosstalk] those guys and so, but then all of a sudden we see in (19)66, (19)65. And when he became senator, this kind of an evolution of a really compassionate person who deeply cared about people who were, you know, especially going down south and all the other things. And so, he-he kind of evolved, you know, into someone that everybody really liked. So that is another thing too. So.

46:00
JB: I got a letter from him. I am sure. I am sure he signed it, but I doubt very much that he wrote it. But I got a letter, I was coming out of the classroom in Ireland, we were coming out of lunch, and I was walking across the courtyard, you know, one day we got in the mail, you know, the envelope says "United States Senate." And so, I open it up, and it is a personal letter from-from Senator Kennedy.

46:29
SM: Oh, wow.

46:30
JB: Yeah, it said, it said, I will tell you exactly what it said. You have to give me a second. Ah, it is someplace in the house,

46:52
SM: Okay. [crosstalk] All right.

46:53
JB: But anyways, it says that, you know, that your dad says, that you are in school in Ireland, and blah-blah, blah. And, you know, working hard, it was an encouragement letter because I was complaining about being there, and I did not want to be there anymore [laughs]. So, he says, "Ahhh" and he sends me a letter from Senator Kennedy. So [inaudible] I mean, Kennedy was like, you know, like, you would see a picture of Jesus on one wall in Ireland and a picture of President Kennedy and the other.

47:32
SM: Yes, yes, definitely.

47:34
JB: But anyway, so yeah, that is in my office. But anyway, so-so, I got this, I am walking across the courtyard. And one kid looked at it, and he goes, "That is not real signature. [Inaudible] senator drop of rain." But gets the signature and smeared the ink. Just the slightest bit and I go, "Ah, it is a real signature." And anyway, so where were we, we were talking about something.

48:10
SM: Yeah, I want to ask you what-what when you were in school here back in the Binghamton area and not over in Ireland, and you were the son of the mayor of, mayor of Binghamton, and then you were the son of the person who is kind of the chair of the upstate Democratic Party and then you were friends with Bobby did that, did that put pressure on you at school? When-when people, "Oh you think you are a big shot or."

48:37
JB: Oh [crosstalk]

48:37
SM: I was curious, what how did it affect you?

48:41
JB: Yeah, people well you know, there is always going to be a percentage of people in life that if you have any level of success or notoriety they are not going to like it.

48:56
SM: Right.

48:57
JB: And then there is the Republican Party you know what I mean, so you know they you know. There was a lot of Repub- there was two to one Republican when he was first elected, I mean it is a Democratic city now but-

49:10
SM: Right.

49:10
JB: -but they would always be, you know, kind of naysayer’s type of thing. And let me make sure, can I take a break here for a second?

x49:31
SM: Yes.

49:31
JB: I have to use the restroom really quick, hold on.

49:33
SM: Yep-yep.

49:34
JB: I am going to put you on mute.

49:35
SM: Yep, very good. [audio cuts] Yep, we are on. We are on.

49:44
JB: Okay, so anyway, shit you were back at... Oh, yeah, you were asking me about you know, how to people treat you and stuff like that.

49:55
SM: Right.

49:56
JB: You know, in Binghamton, a lot of people, you know, my age, you know, they were not, they did not have a level of political awareness, like we did. You know, because we were, you know, we were surrounded by it. You know, there would be an article once in a while about the Burns kids or something, you know, because that was kind of like a notoriety, you know, of having, you know, being the mayor and having 12 kids, you know, it was the 12 kids’ thing. But, you know, there was always some, you know, embarrassing moment or somebody you know, got in trouble or something it was like, you know, you were like, defending, or, you know, stopping, it was a lot of people.

50:51
SM: Right. [crosstalk] Go ahead.

50:57
JB: No, go ahead.

50:58
SM: I was going to ask a question, and before we get into some other questions, you know. Bobby's death and Dr. King's death and Jack's death and the constant impact and, you know, shock-shock, shock-shock, which shocked so many Americans in the (19)60s, this is like the (19)60s and (19)68, in particular were the, what happened at the Democratic Convention. It–

51:21
JB: Oh yeah.

51:22
SM: Yeah, it is, um, I guess-

51:24
JB: I was at, I was at the convention too.

51:27
SM: Yeah, what did you think of that convention?

51:31
JB: Well, I mean, that was one of the best night ever spent. So-so there was the, you know, the Kennedy camp and the McCarthy camp, and the Hubert Humphrey camp kind of thing. You know, Burns was trying to deliver the, you know, the Kennedy stuff to Humphrey I think. And, you know, so there was, it was it was the Democratic Party in New York. I mean, they were all at each other's throats all the time and it was.

52:13
SM: Yeah, well, that connect convention with all the protests going on outside.

52:18
JB: Yeah.

52:18
SM: Yeah. And the–

52:19
JB: Yeah, they sent me they sent me to go get some credentials, because that was the first year it was ever real security, you know, you had to have, you know, this thing around your neck, a plastic encased. But it still did not have a picture ID, it was just, you know. It was like a pass to get in. I do not think it had a picture ID because I was using other people's stuff, and they were letting me in, you know.

52:52
SM: Well that convention with what was going on outside and they arrested some of the reporters inside. I think it was Dan- I think Dan Rather got arrested. I think it was John Chancellor got arrested.

53:04
JB: I was watching. I was up in the you know, alternate stand there. And I was watching Dan Rather, you know, fighting with these guys when he got arrested.

53:17
SM: Well, I think–

53:17
JB: And there was a guy I gave my seat to from Georgia, Julian Bond.

53:28
SM: Oh, yeah.

53:29
JB: I mean that was the- that was when Julian Bond became a national figure. That convention.

53:37
SM: [Inaudible]?

53:38
JB: I mean, as far as I never heard of him before, and all of a sudden, I see him a lot after that.

53:43
SM: Why-why would what why did Julian become a national figure from that convention?

53:48
JB: I am not sure. I think that he spoke. I think he gave a speech. I think he was I do not know if he was a congressional representative. But he was definitely a spokesperson for the you know, for the Black movement, the country. And but he was an elected official have some sort, I just do not remember. [crosstalk] Yeah, he is a cool guy, you know. Good speaker, have a good kind of presence, you know, very staid.


54:29
SM: Yes.

54:29
JB: Yes, you know.

54:31
SM: I interviewed him.

54:34
JB: Oh, did you?

54:34
SM: Yeah, I interviewed him down in America, American University. Before he asked me to go into his class to speak on oral history interviewing [laughs]. So no kidding, no kidding. And then Julian came, I brought him to West Chester University to speak. And, of course, he passed away pretty fast a couple of years back. Finally, we get we were able to get the tape sent to him, sent to his wife for the final okay. Well, one thing I want to ask you because you were a 17-year-old and I was I am was a 21-year-old, I think at that particular time. And I would be curious, you know, I asked this question to your father too, I believe is that the whole issue of elected leaders and trust in elected leaders and during the (19)60s too because of the Vietnam War, and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution which a lot of people thought it was really a farce. It was just a way to get involved in the Vietnam conflict. And so people started to have a lack of trust in some of the leaders because they felt leaders were lying to them. And then we have the deaths of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy and-and then what we saw the Democratic Convention, which is and you are a 17-year-old, and you have got other brothers and sisters that are probably what, they are seeing all this stuff and-and of course your father's probably even though he is very involved in politics is wondering probably how it is affecting the kids. His kids, I just want to know, did you start not having trust in the elected leaders or were you part of that or because you have your father, you always continued to have trust in elected leaders?

56:18
JB: Well, I-I continue to an interest in politics but you know. But there was nobody taking the place of Bobby Kennedy you know what I mean, there was no, like Hubert Humphrey. He was not ringing anybody's bell, you know. And you know, who's next and obviously [inaudible] Republican. And then we started you know, I was coming of an age where I was studying and keeping my eye on like, you know, what is this you know, like if you look at, if you look at a pattern of organized, for organized [inaudible] you know, to ruin the image of someone to take the part of, Republicans are, you know, what came next? Okay. You had like Nixon, McGovern and all, let us see. So.

57:44
SM: Yeah Nixon and then you-

57:45
JB: So, Humphrey lost, Humphrey lost, and then who won? Nixon.

57:51
SM: Yeah. Nixon and Ford and Ford took over after-after Watergate, during Watergate.

58:00
JB: Yeah, Ford and then, but the next president, the next Democratic president was Carter.

58:07
SM: Yes.

58:08
JB: Was it?

58:08
SM: Yes it was.

58:09
JB: And then Carter, like I never noticed it when there was a Republican President, that there was a, you know, a chorus, an organized effort to-to, you know, to- trying to think of the word- but, you know, to, I never noticed that the Democrats do it to the Republicans. And then but then Carter became president, then they did everything they could possibly do to discredit this guy. And maybe even I mean, if I am not mistaken, they even had the Ayatollah Khomeini or-or whoever it was release the hostages but hold off.

58:55
SM: Yes.

58:57
JB: Until Carter was out of office.

58:58
SM: Until Reagan came in, yeah. Until Ronald Reagan came in. That was [crosstalk]. Yeah, I agree.

59:06
JB: [Inaudible] patriotic.

59:08
SM: Yeah, well after the death of Bobby, did your dad ever sit down with the family and talk? Just amongst the family?

59:18
JB: He would talk, yeah. Yeah, he would talk.

59:22
SM: Yeah cause I, you know, sometimes the father's magic moment is when he can get all the kids together after a tragedy and, and see how they are doing, how they are feeling, you know, their thoughts and certainly the thoughts of their father.

59:36
JB: Yeah, and it was more of a with, you know, as a father, he was more of an individual or just a few people at a time guy, okay. He might, you might be with the girls, you know, like, three other girls or five, you know, maybe all five of them. Or it would be me and Patrick and Joe or, you know different, different groups and he would, you know, or we would ride in New York with him, you know. And then, you know, going to New York, he had lots of time to talk to you, tell you what he thought.

1:00:14
SM: Did the Burns family stay, continue to stay in touch with the Kennedy fam- family after Bobby was buried?

1:00:23
JB: With, yeah, I mean, we did not as kids. I mean, I, you know, I had Bobby Jr. when I was County Chairman here, two very chaotic years. He spoke in an event that we had, we asked him to speak, and he did. And, and, but, you know, that was the only, my only real and why I cannot really think of it but. But, um, but Teddy Kennedy was, Teddy Kennedy would communicate with my father all the time. My father was, you know, he was on a couple of boards first, and, you know, Robert F. Kennedy foundations or something.

1:01:10
SM: Right.

1:01:11
JB: And they talked with Ethel, you know, Ethel and [inaudible] and he was like, you know, it was still part of the gang, you know.

1:01:22
SM: Is your becom-

1:01:22
JB: But, um.

1:01:23
SM: -is your becoming a leader in the area of real estate, and is there a, is there somehow a link between what you are doing now and what and, you know, what, what transpired in the (19)60s and (19)70s, you went into politics, obviously. But, you–

1:01:43
JB: Well, I did not really, I- when I came back from Florida, I had moved to, well I was kind of associated in politics a little bit, but I got in the restaurant business. I started, you know, working in restaurants, in the (19)70s. And then, my father, my father had become commissioner of water supply in New York. He was, he helped John Lindsay when Lindsay became a Democrat. And there is a picture in the New York Times my father handing his [inaudible] like a little clip that you put on your lapel or something, right, like a donkey, you know. [Inaudible] but Lindsay was still mayor at the time. And then Lindsey ran for president. And they, you know, my dad was a political adviser to him and that presidential campaign. And so, you know, it did not, you know, did not get any traction, he bowed out. And at that point, Lindsay appointed my father, commissioner of water supply of New York. And, and then he was the last commissioner of water supply in New York, because if you do not know, it is like a patronage to [inaudible] campaign. You know, he, he had an- a nice office someplace that did him like 30,000 a year. So, it was just kind of a supplemental, supplemental [inaudible] thing. And then he got a car and a chauffeur. Anyway, Governor Kerry eliminated that position when, you know that it was in the works. They eliminated the position. And the next day he appointed my father, as his upstate reelection campaign manager.

1:03:54
SM: Wow.

1:03:55
JB: Or campaign manager, I do not know which I do not know. But, so after the election, because, you know, he was he was not very liked upstate. So, you know, you got to get some support. So, anyway, so after he was reelected, he appointed my father. The appointments officer to the governor, he appointed all-all [inaudible] all state jobs, went to him. So, you know, so he just became, you know, like a guy on the second floor, of the capitol and the governor's, you know, floor, and you know, had a big staff and all kinds of interaction with everybody. And at that time, I left "What is Your Beef" in Binghamton and I opened up a restaurant in Albany, called "Downtown Johnny's." It was a block down the street from-from the governor's mansion, the cathedral and next to that is the governor's mansion. So, you know, they all used to come down. And when he had come into town, he had come to my place because that was where his kids were. And the Senate, the, you know, the, the assembly, you know, they all hung out there all the time. When, when his announcement came out for, you know, marrying this woman from Chicago, this Greek woman, the first place he came with his entourage was Downtown Johnny's.

1:05:35
SM: Wow.

1:05:36
JB: Like I was on the front page of The New York Times, Daily News, the post, there is an article about Downtown Johnny's and it was great. [Inaudible]

1:05:47
SM: Is that restaurant still there?

1:05:50
JB: Well, it is a different name now.

1:05:52
SM: Okay.

1:05:55
JB: I lasted a few years, and then I got out. And so anyways, that was a really exciting time. And I got to know you know, a lot of people back then, you know, a lot of people. And all those guys, all the underlings. You know, the governor’s aides and people like that, they are all the, they are all the leaders now. You know, the big shots, it is funny to watch. You know, I go back there once in a while. I go, "Wow, man, you are a judge," you know, "I used to smoke pot with you."

1:06:32
SM: [laughs] There is two things in connection with Bobby's funeral again, or is I would like you, I know you are on the train. And you know, there is the on YouTube, they show the train. And the and all the people along the railroad stops and everything. You were seeing these people when you were seeing all colors, all backgrounds.

1:06:54
JB: Thousands.

1:06:54
SM: Thousands. What, what did that say about America? And what does that say about Bobby?

1:07:03
JB: Yeah, and what did it say about Blacks? Because there was predominantly Black people, were at those train tracks, I thought. You know, I watched that video, I do not I do not see that. But my, my it was hitting me when I was watching it, wow. But-but it was everybody, of they were all there.

1:07:28
SM: It when you, when you think of that speech that Bobby gave the night that Dr. King died, I think it is one of the greatest speeches in history of, I have studied speech. That was off the cuff.

1:07:43
JB: Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was brilliant.

1:07:46
SM: And he did not know and you know, people, there were protests and you know, people were tearing up cities and everything else and he did not know how in Indianapolis how people were going to react and boy.

1:07:57
JB: Right.

1:07:58
SM: Talk about the magic moment, oh my gosh.

1:08:01
JB: Yeah. Fearless and brilliant, you know.

1:08:04
SM: Yeah, it is just and I, I go to Arlington and we all see it, some of the words that he used at that event at, that are right below where the cross is. And it is just it is really passionate. And also, the Teddy's speech was very, I thought it was very well done too and.

1:08:25
JB: During the funeral, you mean?

1:08:27
SM: Yeah, that some men see things as they are and ask, "Why." Why, and Bobby sees things that never were and says, "Why not?" I thought, you know, and he used those words all the time. Bobby, Bobby did.

1:08:43
JB: Yeah. He was a he was a great one for quoting, you know, poetry or–

1:08:50
SM: Yep.

1:08:50
JB: Greek, an ancient Greek or, you know, he is just [inaudible]

1:08:58
SM: Oh yeah, a good right-hand man, for sure. I have some, I have some [crosstalk] I have some couple general questions just about the (19)60s. So, when you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?

1:09:17
JB: Really you know, just those days those days of turmoil, Vietnam and Vietnam, Bobby Kennedy, it was a big one was the Kent State.

1:09:37
SM: Killings. Yeah, (19)70. That leads right in here. Is there one particular event that stands out for you beyond Bobby's death?

1:09:57
JB: Politically?

1:09:58
SM: Yes, politically or tragedy or politically, socially.

1:10:11
JB: I do not know, I mean, we are just talking about so much I cannot, you know like what is popping into my head is like what we are talking. But, you know, I would say that I, not an event but an awakening or an awareness of how-how the world really works in in, you know how power, you know, goes in Washington and-and places. Like, well, what was really, what was Vietnam really about? What was, you know, what are the motivations of, you know, there is so much corruption and money-making schemes and laws that that benefit. I mean it has gotten so much worse now that, you know, I mean Donald Trump is president United States. And that alone is the craziest thing that, you know, he is out of his mind.

1:11:30
SM: I agree.

1:11:33
JB: All these money investments. You know, like Vietnam, and, and a lot of these other third world countries that we were theoretically trying to help, you know, we were, we were not really doing that, you know, we really had some other agenda, we were not trying to help the people of Vietnam. Just a second [coughs]. I do not think and if you look at there is a book, it is a real simple little book, but it is written by a guy that used to be, it is called The Confessions or The Diary or something of Economic Hit Man [Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins]. It is about United States going into third world countries, and lending them money and making them dependent on us. And you know, creating, creating business, for American businesses by you know, building a power plant, that it is really only going to benefit like the royal family of Timbuktu or something. And in the people, the indigenous people, wherever it is all displaced or sent into cities, they have no cultural, you know, understanding of any other. And it is all for, you know, some company in the United States that builds [inaudible] companies.

1:13:15
SM: Right.

1:13:16
JB: And they need electricity, I do not know, do they? You know. Anyways, I just do not know. You know, I just I just and now I am worried about the far left, you know, because they are uncompromising. They are never going to win.

1:13:40
SM: You mean Bernie Sanders and that group?

1:13:42
JB: Yeah, Bernie Sanders. And what is her name? The Bronx.

1:13:48
SM: Yeah, the four young women are in Congress now. [laughs]

1:13:52
JB: Yeah. And, you know, my sister is in Ithaca. I just see everybody, you know, like, it is, like, for example, George, George W. Bush would never have been elected president if it was not for the far left. Because they voted for what is his name that, you know the tall thin guy, what his name uh?

1:14:24
SM: I mean, you are talking about-

1:14:26
JB: Third party candidate in that presidential election.

1:14:28
SM: Yeah-yeah. The lawyer, Ralph Nader.

1:14:35
JB: Ralph Nader.

1:14:36
SM: You are right.

1:14:37
JB: Ralph Nader elected George Bush.

1:14:41
SM: Yep.

1:14:42
JB: He did not. They voted for him, the far left voted for him. And they said, "They are all just as bad as the other." No, they are not. And then that they voted against Hillary Clinton. Sorry. Hillary Clinton would have been a million times better Then Trump, or million times better than whoever the hell they want, I think. Because, she really, she understands policy, she understands negotiation. She knows how the world works. And you cannot be a person who, you know, you just cannot do it. It does not work. I am not a believer. You have to be able to negotiate.

1:15:23
SM: In your, in your, [crosstalk] in your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?

1:15:33
JB: I would say the (19)60s ended in (19)73. After McGovern left.

1:15:41
SM: Okay.

1:15:41
JB: That was it. And that is when they reformed the Democratic Party. MPs, you know, they did not have the chairman handing out the candy anymore, you know, they would have primaries where they could get elected delegates. And then and then that is when they, you know, they made it tougher to elect a Democrat, you know, to consolidate power into, you know, but it is interesting to see how the Democratic Party has evolved from the solid south. And those people finally woke up and realized they were Republicans.

1:15:45
SM: When did-?

1:15:51
JB: So, I say good riddance to them. We do not, we do not have that much in common with those people.

1:16:34
SM: That is true.

1:16:35
JB: They were Andrew Jackson Democrats. I did not know if Andrew Jackson was this Democrat. You know what I mean, like, Jackson was-was similar to Trump in a certain way.

1:16:47
SM: Yeah there is that historic story about when Dr. King was in jail. And-and I think it was Harris Wofford, and Bobby both went to President Kennedy to say, "You need to call down south and get him out of jail" or, you know, something like that. And I know that he, he was thinking about the Democrats, he was a pragmatic politician. That is what they always said about Jack Kennedy. And, and so the most powerful Democrats in Congress at that time were, you know, some of them was bigoted, you know, segregation and as and so it was that that was, so he had to be concerned about, you know, how they were going to react. Well, he did it. And of course, Dr.- Mrs. King just praised-praised him for doing it. And of course, Bobby and Harris were the two people that were the ones that, you know, encouraged him to do it. And it was the right thing to do to begin with. But if but that was a criticism of Jack Kennedy that sometimes he was too pragmatic in his decisions. He knew what was right. But he was too pragmatic, and it took him a little while longer, whereas with Bobby, it would not have taken him in two seconds. So when do you think-

1:18:01
JB: That is true.

1:18:02
SM: Yeah. When do you think the (19)60s began?

1:18:04
JB: I think they, oh, I mean, there was a few things leading up to John F. Kennedy, for example, John F. Kennedy. (19)60s. The [inaudible, starts singing] high hopes, so come on vote for Kennedy, vote for Kennedy and you will come out on top. [stops singing] Do you remember that song, they took the song from some Broadway show.

1:18:41
SM: Yeah.

1:18:42
JB: They made a Bobby Kennedy or a John F. Kennedy campaign song.

1:18:47
SM: Camelot.

1:18:49
JB: Yeah, [inaudible]

1:18:52
SM: I do not know. I am going to tell you, you can finish with someone who thinks the (19)60s began?

1:19:02
JB: So, you know, you know how the world was right after, right after World War Two, you know, in the (19)50s. You know, that was, you know, a boom time really, you know, like, you know, people there was only one income in the family, everybody, you know, there is a one, sometimes two cars, you know, there is a middle class, a real middle class. And it is, it is, I sat next to Senator Moynihan once at a dinner for my father in Binghamton. And, and it was right after Pataki won and beat Mario Cuomo running for what, a third or fourth term?

1:20:10
SM: Yes.

1:20:11
JB: And, well I like Mario Cuomo a lot. And so anyway, sitting next to me, we are talking about the history of the Democratic Party and stuff. He gave a little speech on that. And then he started talking about the, you know, like the, the demise of the small city, upstate New York Cities in you know, just in the Northeast United States, you know, these little small cities and what happened to them. And what happened in New York as far as, and he said, it was the dawn of the American highway system that set the stage for-for all this pilfering of other people's other people's businesses. You know, Delaware started going after, Delaware started going after New York City business companies, no factories and, and things like that. This is what I took from, I cannot remember any exact words. But when all that started, okay, and then there was this, this race to the bottom for-for the, well they were doing it with welfare to but-but for-for, you know, local companies, like, why did why did urban blight occur? Well, they started going, you know, a micro level, not the macro level of, you know, Texas just stole our, you know, Lockheed or something. But, at a micro level of, of like Joe Schmo was on the west side of Binghamton in a house that, you know, he likes house and it is a neighbor and everything else. So now that there is a route 80, 81 out to Kirkwood, he can build a house out in the suburbs, you know, on an acre lot or five-acre lot. And, and he can live out there and get the work on time in Binghamton. In fact, his work is not in Binghamton anymore, they moved it out as a route 17 exit number, whatever. And it is a new factory there. So, he hops in his pickup truck, drives down through Binghamton, stays on route 17 and gets to work in time. And he lives out in the suburbs. And now, those people that used to live in Binghamton on the west side, there is a vacancy in that house so somebody's going to buy it. So, the guy, you know, so, so there is, you know, shifting around. And so, the, the guy that would, could of used, you know, the guy that has a vacancy in his two family on Laurel Avenue in a nice neighborhood, you know, he now rents the house to the guy that used to live on the north side, he is now living in that apartment, and he is okay, but he is no great shakes. Got a job, you know. So, to now the house on the north side, the two family has a vacancy. And the only people that can move into that it is maybe somebody on welfare, you know what I mean?

1:22:47
SM: Wow. Right.

1:23:34
JB: He is not saying this, I am saying this.

1:23:36
SM: Right.

1:23:37
JB: So, what happens is, is that everybody shifts up into a different neighborhood, you know, the one that they want, American Dream kind of stuff. So that is okay, but the apart, but the apartment down on Liberty Street will remain vacant until a drug addict or somebody on welfare moves in there. And then it will become, you know, slowly, you know, mismanaged.

1:24:04
SM: Right.

1:24:05
JB: So, then you end up with a dumpy neighborhood.

1:24:07
SM: Wow.

1:24:08
JB: And that is, that is what happened. Yeah. And so then, that means they start taking the companies out of the cities. And so, the best and the brightest in those cities, like Binghamton, you know, all of a sudden IBM's gone. So, all the IBM workers move to North Carolina. And then, then all those houses are vacant. So, then the prices go down, because there is more supply than there is demand. You know, and then that impacts all the school systems, and it impacts everything. It was, it was the highways, and it was the it was the it was the taxes. You know, that what drew those companies out of those areas, is they were promised lower taxes, and they could beat the unions. They could say, "Look, you know, you do not have to [inaudible] just come down here, and hire these people" and some of them did but a lot of them did not. So it was kind of undermining the income of the American worker.

1:25:09
SM: Yes.

1:25:10
JB: You know, they would move to those areas, and go well it is warm in here, there is not [inaudible] though. Well, there better not be because you do not make enough money to pay it.

1:25:17
SM: [interjects]

1:25:19
JB: And so, I- huh?

1:25:21
SM: Continue.

1:25:23
JB: So, my opinion is that and you know, the Republicans started talking state rights when they, you know, are switching from Republican or Democrat to Republican, you know, that race is figured out that they were really Republicans. But the-the, as people lose, you know, lost their jobs, and they moved out of areas, it was all like tax incentives and all that stuff, those tax incentives lowered the income of workers, and they lowered the income, they had to get like a lot of companies to come, in order to be able to afford the deals they were making with these companies. So-so what happened was, there was this race to the bottom then, and then Cuomo will offer them a better deal, and they lowered their taxes. So now, big corporate America is no longer supporting the population and the infrastructure that they were using. You know, and it is the middle class who has been undermined in this income that is supporting the poor.

1:26:33
SM: Yeah.

1:26:34
JB: You know, and it is just crazy. You know, and then there is the internet, you know, they have like, taken the profit out of everything. And then who knows where that money is.

1:26:48
SM: I can see–

1:26:49
JB: Well.

1:26:49
SM: -yeah, you just gave a tremendous little presentation. And, you know, really, because you are talking about the Triple Cities here. But you are also talking about Cortland, New York where I grew up as a kid. Yeah, they took Brockway Truck out of there in in (19)59, I remember because we were moving, my dad got promoted. So we moved. But we were leaving Cortland. But at that particular time, Brockway took their truck company to Allentown or I do not know where it went. And then they there were some, IBM was out there and they were going to different locations and that city is really hurting and is still hurting. If it was not for the college, SUNY Cortland, they would really be hurting because right now they just shut down one of their three schools, Elton B. Parker Elementary School has just been shut down, which was a major Elementary School at that particular time. I got a few more questions, and then we will end it. It has been said that what made the (19)60s in part was the spirit of the times. How would you define the spirit of those times?

1:27:02
JB: Yeah. Optimistic. The Age of Aquarius, you know, it was a new world, it was, it was going to be great. You know, we were all you know, Woodstock and good reefer. [laughter] You know, by the way, I do not drink, I have not drunk- this is my 32nd year, this month is my anniversary month for not consuming drugs or alcohol. So.

1:28:27
SM: Congratulations.

1:28:28
JB: Do not get the wrong idea.

1:28:29
SM: I would give you a high five if you were here.

1:28:34
JB: So, but I think that it was a, it was an optimism. You know, there was a, it was a, there was a time where it will, you know, I mean we, you know, we could not really feel the impact of anything, you know, below the surface that was happening in the (19)60s, like, you know, like, companies moving and all that stuff. But we were, we were feeling the, you know, the new world like Vietnam has been exposed and it was going to be ended and, and, you know, people are, you know, there was a new music and there was, it was a cultural revolution.

1:29:14
SM: Yes.

1:29:15
JB: And I still cannot believe that I was actually partying with all these rednecks all over the United States [inaudible] Blacks, I mean, it was like, when did that happen? You were a good guy a few years ago.

1:29:29
SM: You know, itis really am-

1:29:30
JB: There is a lot of guys I know like that, you know.

1:29:32
SM: It, you bring some good points here because there was a feeling that amongst a lot of the boomer generation, but it was also the people that were older than the boomer generation too. I know around when I interviewed Richie Havens, he said, "Steve, I am a boomer in spirit, and-and I was born in (19)41." Because-because it is a feeling that we are going to change the world for the better. We are going to end you know, racism, sexism, homophobia, we are going to save the environment, we are going to be different than any other generation, it has proven not to be the case in a lot of the recent studies, but still there was that feeling amongst many of the young people. And that leads me in right into here. What-what do you think were the lessons of the (19)60s and (19)70s? What were the key lessons learned in that in that period? It can be one lesson or just, or just something that stands out.

1:30:40
JB: What? Read that again?

1:30:47
SM: Yeah. What were the lessons that we as a nation or individually could be, what did we will learn from the (19)60s and (19)70s? It could be learned, mistakes made or things that we did, right. What, you know, when we discussed this two, these two decades, what were some of the lessons we learned?

1:31:14
JB: Well, I think that I do not know if we learned them. But I think that the lesson was in, one of the big lessons was in it now not becoming involved in political, you know, I think we are coming away from, you know, anti-communism. I mean we have to protect the United States. But, you know, I think that, you know, going after the economics of other countries, you know, and having big business, you know, driv- you know, driving the boat, you know. That, that is not that is not the way to go, and I do not think that we have learned it, I think that we became aware of it. You know, and I think that we-we developed an awareness- the North East did, and probably California- we began, we developed an awareness of the, of the plight of the Black person. You know, we did not, well, you know, I was young, so I do not, you know, I cannot say, Well, you know, for five whole years, I did not realize that, you know what I mean so. But, but, you know, I get a kick out of talking to young kids these, you know now they go, "Oh, man, I have always been this way." I go, "Wait a second you are, you are 12." Always is not a very long time. But-

1:32:57
SM: What?

1:32:58
JB: -and I, you know, I think that I think that social programs, you know, the successes of Franklin Roosevelt, you know, was-was, [inaudible], you know, it was being internalized by a new generation of people that, you know, said, "Wow," you know, "That never was before," you know. These-these work programs and in Social Security, and you do not let the old people just wither on the vine, you know, well, actually we do. But, you know, in Medicare and Medicaid, those are great things.

1:33:39
SM: Yes.

1:33:39
JB: You know, I think Obamacare is a great thing, except it did not take it far enough.

1:33:44
SM: What was the what was the watershed event of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, in your view?

1:33:53
JB: Our watershed, Woodstock. Woodstock, the assassination of the Kennedys. And Martin Luther King, you know like, who is behind that?

1:34:10
SM: Do you believe in conspiracy theories?

1:34:13
JB: Yeah, I do.

1:34:16
SM: Yeah, and because, you know, we can reflect on it right now that we are still talking about that was more than Lee Harvey Oswald that shot John Kennedy. The-the, the Martin Luther King assassination that it was more than the one guy across the it, next to the motel, you know, it had to be more than just him. And of course, we know about Bobby, that things that happened in the, with Sirhan Sirhan. You know, if people have said that the gun that he was using, the bullets, none of them could have gotten to the bullets that hit the back of his head. It was, it was almost like anybody who was going to change the status quo in our society who were doing it in a very good way, humanistic way, we got to take them out because they were a threat.

1:35:08
JB: Yeah, right.

1:35:10
SM: I do not know, you know, to me that they dedicated their lives to others, and they dedicated it was not about them. It was about others. And because some group or entity or pride, who knows, they had to get rid of them. So, you do believe in conspiracy?

1:35:31
JB: Yeah, I just I just cannot wrap my head around who did it. You know, I mean, they go the mafia was mad at Bobby Kennedy. Alright, you know, what, were so they going to kill the guy running for president? You know, for me, that is a big, you know, it is a big thing to do, just because you do not like somebody, you know. But, you know, the crazy racists you know, they, they can do crazy things, because they do not like people. So that is one thing, but I do not know. I do not know. I always look at the economics of it. You know, it is like, well, who, who financially benefits? You know, I mean, it could have been like, you know, Pan Am was trying to get into Air Lingus, you know, "Let us shoot that guy."

1:36:23
SM: Yeah, it is, who knows. And one of the things about the (19)60s too, is that there were a lot of slogans that came out of the (19)60s that were kind of used every day. And there is three that I want to quote here, and I do not know if you have any more, but one of them was from Malcolm X, "By any means necessary," remember he used that, that was Malcolm and the people are still using that today. Timothy Leary time, "Tune in, turn on, drop out." And then Jerry Rubin, "Do not trust anyone under, or over 30." And he was 29 when he said it [laughs]. Are there any slogans that you remember, you were around campaigns, I know that, "We like Ike" was the one in the (19)50s but, any slogans that come to your mind that politically or that your dad was-?

1:37:20
JB: Mmm, I do not know.

1:37:24
SM: You do not have to know [inaudible] say but the slogans-

1:37:28
JB: Yeah.

1:37:28
SM: -did come out the period, like the ones I mentioned. Do you still see the-

1:37:31
JB: Yeah.

1:37:32
SM: -the divisions that we saw in the (19)60s that are kind of still linked today in our society, particularly the culture wars that are going on?

1:37:43
JB: Yeah, really. You know, I, when, when, when George Bush was elected, I was of the theory, you know, I said, well, first of all, he was going to go in there, his job, the I thought he had only last four years. His job was to go in and dismantle everything that the Democrats have done. And, and just, you know, set the stage for, you know, just, you know, so everybody's got to do it all over again, or whatever. And then I had the opinion that, that these are the last desperate efforts of a dying political party, a dying belief. It is like a chicken with its head chopped off, you know, it will just go crazy. And they are doing all this stuff, but [inaudible], you know, their legs are kicking in they are dying. And-and I thought that is what it was. But now, I am starting to feel like, there is a worldwide effort that there is a, a, you know, an organized belief that it is not over, that they are going to re-install these right-wing backward thinking things, you know, I thought, you know, we were, I had thought that we were at the end, and that no matter what they do, or what they try to do, we were going to have a new way and a new world. And I like to think that that is still going to be true but I do not know. You know, I mean, the only because like all these guys, I know. You know, I am going out to California next week, and I am going to visit a friend of mine who, you know, he thinks that Obama was this, you know, this horrible thing. And now these are these anti Obama guys. They were the real scary ones. They are like, oh, [inaudible] so anti-Obama, you know like, "Wow, man, he has really ruined this country." It is like, in what way? What are you talking about?

1:39:55
SM: Yeah.

1:39:55
JB: You know, but they, they believe that.

1:39:59
SM: Yeah.

1:40:00
JB: If you hang around with them once in a while, and you start getting an understanding, an understanding of what they believe, that is a scary thing. They really believe-

1:40:09
SM: Well there is something you know, I have talked to, I am not- my role here as an interviewer is not to make judgment. But the thing, the thing is I have spoken to people who, you know, Donald Trump will eventually be out of office, but the people that that voted for him, will be still with us. And that–

1:40:28
JB: Yeah.

1:40:28
SM: -and if that is half of America well, where are we heading? So, I, you know, it really concerns me. When you look at the boomer generation, and young people like yourself and me when we were young, the post-World War Two, what were the qualities that you admired in that young generation and the ones you least admired? I asked this question to your dad. [laughs]

1:40:58
JB: Back then, like, what do I least admire about my generation back then?

1:41:03
SM: Yes, then and now.

1:41:08
JB: Well, I admired the idealism, you know, that we could have a better world and, you know, I admired you know, the-the belief that, you know, people were going to coexist peacefully, Blacks and whites, people help other, you know, nationalities and stuff and, you know, kind of a pride, you know, how we carried ourselves through history as a place where people can come and make a light that, you know, as long as they are contributors. You know, and now I do not know. What I do not like, is I do not like racist beliefs and, you know, right wing, you know, "Let them help themselves, they get to lift themselves up." You know, I do not believe that, you know, and I think that I do not, I do not like the line, the political line about, you know, okay, well, you know, your health insurance is going to be good, or your life is going to be okay. It is not going to be okay. It is going to be really bad. And you know what, I know. We are just getting towards the end of the first season. I am rewatching. All of the seasons of West Wing, what a great TV show.

1:42:50
SM: Yeah it is, it is a great TV show.

1:42:53
JB: It was, my brother Patrick thinks it is the best, you know, TV show ever made. He is in a lot of my brothers are all in the movies [inaudible].

1:43:04
SM: Yeah, where what where are your brothers and sisters doing now? I know that your older sisters are, well there is three of them are singers, I believe.

1:43:14
JB: Yeah.

1:43:14
SM: And they live in Ithaca. And they are the Burns singers. And I remember talking to your dad about that. But what are what are the what, what is everybody doing in the family?

1:43:25
JB: Well, Bobby is, Bobby is in his mid-70s. I think he might be retired, but he is a social worker in Cleveland. And then there is my, the next is Patrick. He just retired, was the co-producer of the TV show Always Sunny in Philadelphia, from its origin.

1:43:47
SM: Oh, wow.

1:43:48
JB: And next is Sheila. She is a retired teacher in Ithaca, and at one time sang with the other girls.

1:43:59
SM: Right.

1:44:00
JB: Let us see, then me and I am a real estate broker in Binghamton. And my brother Joe is running for city council the, there is the fifth district. He is the next one under me. And he is retired from the movie industry. And he, he worked for Robert Redford on you know, A River Runs Through It. Scorsese and Robert DeNiro and many movies [inaudible], things like that.

1:44:33
SM: Wow.

1:44:34
JB: You know, he was system director under Oliver Stone and the JFK movie and a lot of different things and then Tommy, Tommy just, he did like 10 years as the co-producer of ER. And he just got done with Nashville and then I think he is in. I think he is in, well, he lives in LA, but he is shooting a funny show in Toronto with Leary what is his name, that funny guy.

1:45:19
SM: Oh, um.

1:45:22
JB: Kind of a sarcastic fast-talking New York guy.

1:45:25
SM: Yeah, I know who he is. I cannot remember the name.

1:45:27
JB: Yeah, you know what I mean.

1:45:28
SM: Yeah.

1:45:28
JB: And then that is Tommy. Then Marie Jean- Marie and Anne sing, are the Burns Sisters at the moment. And, and then you know Marie is in Ireland a lot of time. And they go out tour like next month, they will they will tour Ireland. They go every year.

1:45:49
SM: Wow.

1:45:49
JB: And they sing all over the place. And then Genie is in Ithaca half the time, and the other half in Texas. She is a singer, songwriter, and a [inaudible]. Danny as a coffee shop up in, in Maine and in Ithaca. And has a couple, he has a son who is like a prodigy violinist and stuff. And let us see Danny, and then Vincent, who is kind of like freelance traveling man with his wife and they travel around the country in a, you know, a car and a camper. And Vincent and then Terry is a singer songwriter and her husband is a produces television commercials and things like that Nashville, but they live in Ithaca. They have a band. They play all over too. And that is it, that is all 12.

1:47:03
SM: Now do you think of your mom and dad a lot?

1:47:07
JB: Oh, yeah. Yep.

1:47:08
SM: Yep. I have lost my mom and dad. But you know, when you lose your mom and dad, you seem like they seem like they are even closer than they ever were after they have gone.

1:47:16
JB: Yeah.

1:47:16
SM: I mean, it is every day. I never had the opportunity to ask my mom and dad, did they ever think of their mom and dad and that was I, I wish- did you ever ask your dad if he ever thought of his dad?

1:47:30
JB: He did not really, his father died when he was like 11 or 12 or something like that.

1:47:37
SM: Right.

1:47:38
JB: And his mother was the stenographer for the court, for the city court for I do not know, forty years or something. She was, she was quite a person. And then you know, she was like, lectured the judge, "You may only be too harsh on people." But she, but my dad is funny [inaudible] one day he told me when he was getting older, you know. And I said something to him. I cannot remember what it was, something about aging or something. And he goes, "Johnny" he says, "I do not," he says, "I feel like I you know, I look old. And I am old." He says, "But I feel exactly like I did when I was 22."

1:48:26
SM: Wow, that is amazing. That is, that is my thought.

1:48:31
JB: Yeah, me too.

1:48:32
SM: I you know,

1:48:33
JB: I do not see any difference.

1:48:34
SM: No, I-

1:48:35
JB: That time does not exist.

1:48:37
SM: Yeah. Wow. That, you know, now I know why I really got along with your dad I had that, we had about an hour with each other. And he was having a, he was sitting in that big chair in his apartment. And he said his back was hurt a little bit. And I remember your mother was in the other room very busy. And in this is a little anecdote here. When my mom was in the hospital, I am not sure if it was Lourdes or I do not know which hospital was but her roommate was your mom.

1:49:08
JB: Oh. [laughter]

1:49:10
SM: They share, they shared the same room. And so, this is a small world here. Now I have three final.

1:49:16
JB: Oh, that is funny.

1:49:17
SM: I have three final questions. The boomer generation always had this feeling when they especially when they are young that they are the most unique generation in American history, that they were going to change the world for the better and they really felt that, I mean it was across the board. Do you think they were the most unique generation in American history? Reflecting, you can reflect on you know, over time we can some people say no way.

1:49:47
JB: About our parents’ generation?

1:49:49
SM: No, our generation, the boomers.

1:49:51
JB: Oh, I think so far. I think so far because we were the, we were the breakaway generation. You know, but we were the breakaway teenagers and young adults, you know, like a lot of these guys sold their bell bottoms and got, you know, buzz cuts.

1:50:15
SM: Right.

1:50:16
JB: You know what I mean, they sold out. I guess I did, too. I mean, I am a real estate guy. [laughs]

1:50:23
SM: Well, one of the one of the things that the critics of the boomer generation is remember, folks, there were 74 million of them and only 7 percent or under ever got involved in any kind of activism. It is a way you know, it is a, and I say, and my response to that is, "Wow, that is a lot of people." If you are talking about 7 percent, of 74 million, so there is so there is then the next the last question is, I really, I just interviewed Bobby Muller. And Bobby said that he feels the lasting legacy of the (19)60s in many respects, especially amongst the boomer generation itself, is that they, they really do not trust anybody in positions of leadership anymore. Because of the lies that they have been, and now we are seeing lives today in, you know, Washington. That trust that trust is, if there is you know it is, Bobby said to me, he says, " Steve the-the Vietnam War is a long time ago, it is good that you are making sure the history of it is known. But in the end, it is the factor of trust that young people have in young- in people in positions of power," whether that be the like the mayor, like your dad, a mayor or a principal in a high school, or head of a corporation or a minister in a church. I mean, the there was this feeling that all leaders are bad, because they have been lied to, your thoughts if that is really still prevalent in America?

1:51:57
JB: Well, yeah, I think it is really prevalent in America now. And I think what was really disappointing, you know, as, you know, as we are looking at results of the, you know, of our generation is that reform really did not get any traction. We did not reform campaign finance. And that same shit is going to keep the world exactly the same as it was, nothing is, you know, what, there is an old saying, in AA, that says, "If nothing changes, then nothing changes." You know, and that is the way it is, you know, it is a, you know, we are still going to get, you know, the big corporations and really wealthy people, and that has become more prevalent now that, the real wealthy. Now we have, you know, we have billionaires running for office, because they are the only ones they can afford to do it, you know.

1:52:58
SM: Right.

1:52:59
JB: And, and so they are either selling out or they got an agenda that we do not want or, you know, or that we have to rely on a, you know, a benefactor, you know, a rich benefactor to save us, and it is not democracy that is doing it. It is big money, and then we just cross our fingers that, you know, he is, he is really a good person.

1:53:25
SM: Right.

1:53:26
JB: You know like the mayor in New York, there what is his-?

1:53:28
SM: De Blasio.

1:53:29
JB: He wants to be president.

1:53:30
SM: De Blasio.

1:53:31
JB: No, not him. The other guy, the Republican. He used to be a Democrat, the Jewish guy.

1:53:39
SM: I am not even sure.

1:53:42
JB: Oh, he is a billionaire. [inaudible]

1:53:46
SM: Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah. Oh, my goodness, man. I cannot.

1:53:52
JB: Cannot think of his freaking name.

1:53:53
SM: Yeah, we are both the same boat.

1:53:57
JB: This is not a good sign [laughter].

1:53:59
SM: No, that is not a good sign and we are supposed to be young. [laughter] He has got his own under radio show, a TV network and everything else.

1:54:11
JB: Yeah, begins with W. H and W. WH, uh.

1:54:19
SM: Yeah. [inaudible] think it is Broad Berger or something Berger.

1:54:23
JB: Oh, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah. Something Burg- uh Bromberg.

1:54:29
SM: Bromberg yes.

1:54:31
JB: Is it?

1:54:32
SM: I do not know, all I know is-

1:54:34
JB: How about David Bromberg?

1:54:35
SM: I am not sure, well that he was an entertainer, was not he?

1:54:39
JB: Oh, yeah. He is unbelievable.

1:54:40
SM: Yeah, yeah. Yep. My last question is this, and this is, I have not talked about Vietnam that much but- on this particular one- but the Vietnam memorial was built and opened in (19)82. And of course, you know, we know how Vietnam veterans are treated when they came back from the war, they were treated very poorly.

1:54:41
JB: Still around. Yeah.

x1:55:00
SM: And I mean, terrible. And of course, the wall's been, you know, there since (19)82. And it was the first time they ever came together. And the goal of the wall was to, you know, to really pay remembrance to those who served and died in the war and to help with the healing of the families and-

1:55:20
JB: Yeah.

1:55:20
SM: -lost loved ones in the whole works. The key question that Jan Scruggs used to sing when he wrote his first book, The Healing of a Nation was the book that he wrote. And I know Jan quite well, and I have interviewed him quite a few times. Do you think that there is still the issue of healing from this war? And we are hearing that Bobby says we are the war is a long time ago now, we got issues with China. He started going into detail, it is just forget Vietnam. I mean, I was very involved in it for a long time, and I care about veterans. But time has moved on, and there are other issues. And do you think that we as a nation have healed from that war be the division-

1:56:05
JB: Vietnam?

1:56:06
SM: Yeah, from Vietnam, the divisions that were happening then and the divisions that like, still continue today, whether it be in the cultural war, those who were for or against the war, those who served those who did not serve. I know, it is a long time ago now, I hate to say it is over 50 years. But just your thoughts on when he wrote the book, To Heal a Nation, you know, it is, have we healed the nation?

1:56:33
JB: Well, I do not you know, my personal feelings about it is that that I think that some things have gotten worse, like, like, you know, we did not like the military. And then and the guys that went in, you know, we were not empathetic for you know, but you know, a lot of our cousins and brothers and people, you know, they, they are, you know, they are good guys, and they were there and that is it, you know. But, but the, the all this, I hate all this, you know, oh the Marines "Oh, my God, everybody stand up," there is guys walking through right now that are helping Exxon make fucking money. You know, it is like, you know, they think these poor souls that are in the service, think that they are defending the United States, and they are not. They are helping, they are the oils company sponsors you know, secures them. Have you ever, have you ever heard of the, in Afghanistan has one of the largest deposits of these special metals, you see, you know, they are, they are very hard to find. And they are very expensive. And they are in communication phones and things like that, that the biggest locations of it in the world or in Afghanistan, you know, it is not a coincidence that. Like, we do not give a shit, what happens to the women in Iraq, and Iran and Saudi Arabia, we do not we do not care about them. But we are very empathetic to the Afghanistan women and how they are treated. You know, what is that about? You know, it is about money. Like they want something that is in the ground in Afghanistan, I believe that. You know, remember when, there is a great book. I have not read the whole thing, because it is like a huge and my attention span, I still have to make money too. But it is called The Prize. And it is about the dawn of oil into everything, you know, when they first started using it, and then they realized it could be a fuel. I mean, how they were drinking this stuff. You know, they did not know what to do with it. They knew it was good, though. So anyway, once oil came onto the scene, you know, like, they talked a little bit about how what is his name in the- Winston Churchill. Bloomberg is the guy.

1:59:36
SM: Bloomberg, yes.

1:59:37
JB: [inaudible] but they-they have they have him having to make a decision right around the end of World War One, beginning of World War Two or somewhere in there, where he had to make a decision, "Am I going to dump- am I going to stick with steam and coal to keep my navy going, or am I going to oil?" And you know, that is what everybody was doing. They were all deciding what they were doing. But I remember being a little kid, and watching World War Two movies, the Germans and the Americans and all this stuff. And I would always ask myself, what the hell -are they, Germany's Germany. You know, it is like, why are they in the desert? What are they doing fighting in the desert? You know, why are they there? They were there, because that was where the oil was.

1:59:37
SM: Yep.

1:59:45
JB: You know. And if you look at, you know, if you look at, you know, that, that if you just focused on just that, like, okay, well, what happened, and, and what was the result, and where was the oil and everything. It makes a lot more sense than, okay, we are going to go down there and kick their butt. And then but anyway.

2:01:03
SM: Well, I am basically done. But are there any final thoughts or any observations or things that you might want to say that I did not ask?

2:01:13
JB: You know, I mean, I was lucky, you know, like I was, although we were not wealthy, I was privileged, because of the position my father rose to, you know, and, and there are so many people in the world that are not lucky. You know, and, and for some reason, you know, you think about the education that we all got, and, you know, we are part of a certain type of people. You know, it is not necessarily like what I learned in college, or what, my brothers were, you know, at the top of their industry, in production of movies and television programs. You know, like, I am a top producing guy, I have had a TV show for 20 years. You know, I, you know, I am creative, I make money. My sisters are singers, and, you know, like, everybody has had a level of success in not necessarily real common areas, but-but, you know, we did not choose to, you know, work in a factory or to, you know, work for a large corporation or anything

2:02:34
SM: Right.

2:02:34
JB: And all, you know, we are all kind of independent people. I do not know what all that means. But I do know that, you know, I am, I am, I am kind of lucky that way, you know, in my dad did not really make any money and did not end up with any real money or anything like that. But-but, you know, he had an exciting, interesting life.

2:02:59
SM: Yeah, well, you know-

2:03:00
JB: I see a lot of that.

2:03:01
SM: I am, well, I think your dad is, is one of the good guys. And I was a student at Binghamton at the time. And I always admired him from afar. And, and I know, he is probably very proud of all of his kids, and what you have done in your lives. And I think what it says it all at the very is what we you, you and I both said that we think about our parents every day, and even though they are gone, and you have got our own families and kids and all this and so forth. But obviously, they played-

2:03:34
JB: Did you ever know Kete Dover? They used to live out on Pennsylvania Avenue, there is another guy, they were like hippies they lived there was like a commune there. Exactly. Out on Upper Penn Ave.

2:03:37
SM: No-no.

2:03:44
JB: Hawleyton Road.

2:03:51
SM: I did not.

2:03:54
JB: Yeah, those guys are all still around.

2:03:56
SM: [laughs] They still got a commune?

2:03:59
JB: No, no.

2:04:00
SM: Okay. I know there is. [inaudible] Yeah, there is still that farm, the farm down in Tennessee, that still exists. So

2:04:09
JB: Yeah.

2:04:09
SM: Well I want to thank you for the for doing this and being interviewed and I am going to before I am going to just turn the tape machine off here. Thank you very much, John Burns.

2:04:20
JB: Okay. Thank you very much and-

2:04:23
SM: Let me turn this-

2:04:23
JB: -reach out some time.

2:04:23
SM: Let me turn this. Yeah, let me let me turn this-

(End of Interview)

8/7/2019

Stephen McKiernan

John Burns Jr.

John Burns Jr. is the fourth oldest of 12 children of Binghamton's former Mayor, John Burns. He lived for several years in Albany, NY, where he owned a restaurant called Downtown Johnny’s. After many years in the restaurant business, he moved to Jupiter, Florida, where he ran a real estate practice. John eventually moved back to Binghamton, where he excelled in real estate and raised all of his 3 children who attended the Binghamton School District. Now, he has 2 grandchildren, Johnny and Lincoln.

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1960s; Mayor John Burns; Rockefeller; John F. Kennedy; PT 109; McCarthy; Cuban Missile Crisis; Robert Kennedy; Bobby Kennedy; assassination; 1968 Democratic National Convention