Interview with Dr. Harriet Hyman Alonso

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Harriet Hyman Alonso
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: 5 November 2021
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(Start of Interview)

SM: 00:05
All right. Can you hear me okay?

HHA: 00:07
Yep. Can hear you fine.

SM: 00:09
Yeah. Okay, the first question I just want to ask you is if you could tell us a little bit about yourself, through your growing up years, your high school and your college experiences before you became a professor and very gifted writer.

HHA: 00:21
Okay, well, I was born on July 31 (19)45. And in a family that was, how can I put it, that they were kind of conservative, but not vocal, a very quiet Jewish family. Very working class, my father was and was very poor as a child, and my mother, a little less poor. They lived in Brooklyn. And they, my father was in the army for a very brief period at the end of World War Two, which made him eligible for the GI Bill. So, they purchased a home in Paramus, New Jersey when I was in the fourth grade, and at the time they had together $125 to their name when they moved in. So, I went to school largely in Paramus, which I never liked [laughs] to this day. And never quite fit in, and so I was eager to leave. But the one thing about that growing up period, I will say, is that I became really interested in the theater. And that is because my parents always were and my father, as a child had, well, I guess a teenager and young man had built himself, you know, one of those scooters with the wooden platform. And he would push himself from Brooklyn into Manhattan, and go to any show he could afford. So, I was, and he had this incredible memory of theater information, and movie information. His friends used to like to come by and ask him all these obscure questions that he could always answer. So, I was raised with this love of theater, and of musical theater in particular. And when I was in high school, Robert Ludlum, you might know his name from spy novels.

SM: 02:31
Yes.

HHA: 02:32
Yeah. But he was the producer of an Actors Equity Theatre in New Jersey, that was originally called the North Jersey Playhouse and then became the Playhouse on the Mall in Paramus. And he had a program for apprentices of kids from local high schools, and I applied and I was accepted. And for three summers, I worked in that theater. And during the year, I ushered in that theater, and became like, really connected in an, especially in an emotional way, as well as learning so much. And so, I originally thought I would go, I would study theater somewhere. My parents, and I have two older sisters, nobody ever went to college. And so, when I said I wanted to go to college, my parents immediately thought I would go to a state college and become a teacher. And I said, I would never ever in my life, become a teacher. It is kind of ironic when you think about it, and [crosstalk]

SM: 03:46
Now you are a great teacher. [laughter]

HHA: 03:50
I want to study the theater. And so, I actually, my high school had not designated me as somebody who would follow the college path. And I applied, they did not really like counsel me in it. So, I applied to one school. I applied to NYU. At that time, the theater program was in the School of Education. Am I telling you too much?

SM: 04:20
Oh-no, no, this is fine. Because, you know, the books that you have written, people want to know who you are, where you came from.

HHA: 04:29
[laughs] Okay, so I-I applied to NYU and my-my mother said, "If you receive" and she gave me a dollar amount, I forget what it was like about $500. "If you receive that in financial aid, somehow I will figure out how you should go to college" and I got exactly that amount. And so, I went to NYU to where the theater program was in the School of Education. This was before the School of the Arts was even created. And I went there. I soon discovered I did not have the backbone to be in the theater. So, I switched to an English major. And I graduated from NYU in (19)67 with a Bachelor's in English and Dramatic Arts in the School of Education. And from there I actually, I had been very interested in the Peace Corps. And I had applied and been accepted and been trained to teach ESL. And, but I never did go to the Peace Corps. Because I met the man I married, and that I am still married to [laughs] and ended up teaching ESL for about 15 years. And during those years, because this was (19)67 on into about (19)80, let us say, or, let us say, six- I taught ESL from (19)67 to (19)82, but I started to make a transition before that. I would say that the-the changes that happened in the late (19)60s for me, were the political changes.

SM: 06:21
Right.

HHA: 06:22
And some of that had to do with being in Greenwich Village. And living in a dorm there and being exposed. Some of it was meeting my husband, who was kind of a beatnik hippie at the time, [laughs] and just learning stuff. And I ended up after I graduated, getting a job teaching ESL at a, it was one of the first community-controlled schools in New York City, up in Harlem, on 121st Street, IS 201. And I taught ESL there for a year when I was, was kind of lost, and appealed to a professor at NYU who taught ESL, and then he actually came to the school and advised me on what I was doing, and then recruited me into a special program at NYU, where I trained at the American Language Institute and taught ESL. So anyway, I taught ESL for 15 years, but that really- oh, that is English as a Second Language for [inaudible].

SM: 07:40
Right-right.

HHA: 07:43
Door during those years, I became very involved in the-the early women's movement, second wave women's movement, I became involved in the antiwar movement too, mostly about the draft issue, the anti-draft movement, because I had a son in (19)71. And, you know, became very aware of that. So, I went to a lot of marches against the Vietnam War, became involved in the Cuba movement, and worked with a magazine called Cuba Times Magazine and made some journalistic trips to Cuba.

SM: 08:29
Wow.

HHA: 08:30
And so, I became politicized at that time, which was very opposite of what I was raised, or how I was raised to be. Like I said, my parents were not active in any way. They were [inaudible] kind of more timid people. I do not I do not know if that was an effect of World War Two, of what they knew about the Holocaust or whatever, like, I know now, I did not learn till I was 18 that almost my entire family was wiped out in the Holocaust. They never mentioned that [laughs] which and so they it was so they were, I became the black sheep of the family in effect. And but I journeyed on my way, and kind of one thing led to another and in around (19)79, I guess, or (19)80, I-I was not happy teaching ESL. I really loved the students, I learned a lot. But something, it was kind of was not meshing and I needed to make a change. And also, one part I forgot is I got, I got very involved in doing embroidery, especially needlepoint. And I started creating my own political, what I call political posters, because I love that art form. And those pieces, which are still with me, have now been acquired by the New York State Museum up in Albany. And some of them have gone there, and some will go there eventually, but are with me, and I still do those. But that, doing that art form led me to women's history. And I somehow wanted to pull together the political stuff, and the professional stuff in some way. And one day I was looking, you know, how the New York Times used to have ads in it-

SM: 11:01
Yes.

HHA: 11:01
-or educational ads, I was just looking through the paper, and I saw this ad for an open house at Sarah Lawrence College for the MA in women's history. And I said, "Oh, that sounds really interesting." And I went up to the school, and had what I would call a conversion experience. It was like, a bolt of lightning hit me, I attended classes taught by Gerda Lerner, and a couple of other professors there. And I just, I do not know what I could say, I just knew that I wanted to do that, and borrowed all kinds of money [laughs] to do that. And in fact, when I applied, you know, and Gerda Lerner interviewed me, and she said, "I do not know why you want to start this, you already have a profession." And why do you want to come back to school and learn this. And, you know, I told her how I felt and she-she was just leaving Sarah Lawrence for Wisconsin. And she said, to the, to her cohorts there, be sure to admit this woman into this program. So, I never got the chance to study with her. But she always considered me one of her students. And so, I-I did that. I had, when I first started, I had great trepidation about it because it was involving a lot of money, it was involving a lot of time. I was also teaching part time, adjuncting in many-many schools at that time. And but I went into that program. And when I went in, I thought I was going to do embroidery history, until my advisor there said, you will never get a job in the future if you do the history of embroidery. Says it is just not going to happen. And I said, "Well, how about the peace movement? Because I am interested in that, too." And she said she because she had written something about it. said, "Yeah, I think you should go in that direction." And little did she know, actually, it would have probably been easier for me to get a job teaching, you know, cultural stuff–

SM: 11:39
Right.

HHA: 11:48
-than it ended up being a peace historian. [laughs]

SM: 13:49
Well, I would say everything seems to fall in place here. You know, you answered my first three questions I was going to ask was, I was going to find out how the (19)60s and early (19)70s influenced you and helped shape you, especially being around your peers. So, around the same age, and when you look at the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Do you see any differences in the youth during that period? We are, we are trying at Binghamton here to concentrate on that era, (19)60 to (19)75. And, of course, the women's movement is crucial here. But do you see that any difference of the students of the early (19)60s to those of the later (19)60s?

HHA: 14:36
Well, in terms of the early (19)60s, I mean, the students that I knew, you know, in high school and in, at NYU at first were not- I mean, I did not hang out with the kids who identified say with the culture of Greenwich Village, who you know, the early hippies or the beatniks I was not in that crowd, was not in any crowd. So, the folks I knew, like, in the dorms or first in the drama department were just students. You know, I mean, I had to work a lot while I was in college, to, to [inaudible] would hold, you know, two jobs, part time jobs at one time. And some of them were in the university. But I just met general students, and I had at that time in the School of Education, every course was two credits. So, if you wanted to carry the say, even 16 credits, you were taking 8 courses. And if I had three or four literature courses let us say one semester, I had to read a book in each of them. So, I was not hanging out with anybody. But I was experiencing the village culture, you know, in kind of a distant way up until probably my last year. So, I cannot, I mean, I did not, the students I knew in both high school and college, were not political people. And they did not have a lot of interest in it. When I was in high school so let us say around six, the year (19)62 and (19)63 maybe, I became really interested in like foreign exchange students, and in the Peace Corps and things like that. But most-most of the people that I knew, were interested in, well, I am going to, you know, graduate from high school, and then I am going to go to college, you know, and the whole thing about, you know, the reason a woman would go to college would be to get her Mrs.

SM: 16:57
Yes. [laughter]

HHA: 16:57
So, there was a lot of that, and, and I did not actually, you know, I just thought I would find my way into the theater so I was going to college. But and the same thing when I was in college, because I was in the dorms at NYU, very, when I, when I started at NYU, I was living with my parents' friends, way, way out in Brooklyn. And it was very scary traveling at night. Being a theater student, I often traveled at night, and I went to ask a dean, what was there some way they could help me, and she put me in the dorms at no cost. And in fact, by the time I finished, at NYU, I was actually getting $50 A month cash as spending money plus my room and board and my tuition. And all I had to do was at that time, was to have a C average. I had a higher average than that. But that was the requirement because they were at that point trying to pull in more working-class students. So that was their thing in the school of Ed, I guess. So, I was living in the dorms, but I could say that, and that would be from like (19)64 to (19)67, I met many young women and men. They were they I-I did not see any of them being political. And that was not where I got the influence from.

SM: 18:53
Well, it is interesting that the Greenwich the influence in Greenwich Village has on people. I am actually reading a book, right, finishing a book right now on Eleanor Roosevelt. It talked about her going there in (19)20 and how it just changed her life.

HHA: 19:09
Yeah.

SM: 19:10
It was the people, the-the activists that she met there that were kind of ahead of their time. And when I interviewed Richie Havens in this project, he talked about how he would always go into Greenwich Village and sit in in the clubs and listen to mu- other musicians, and then he would play there as well. So, it is like it is, it is a- it is an area where a lot of activism comes from, because of I guess the influence. The one question here, this is important one I think you have you have talked a little bit about it. When did when did you first know as an individual that your voice mattered for the first time? Did you feel that you had real power, did you feel empowered? The one of the things about the (19)60s and the (19)70s for the women's movement and other movements, is that people felt it is not about gaining power. It is about being empowered.

HHA: 20:06
Yeah.

SM: 20:06 Tom Hayden was used to always when he would come to college campuses. I know Tom, Tom would talk about to students. "Do you have, do you, are you empowered?" And they say, "Oh, we have power, we have." "No, I said, do you have empowerment?" And they did not quite understand it. When did you feel like your voice mattered?

HHA: 20:26
Well, it was not when I was an undergraduate. I never felt that as an undergraduate at NYU. Let us see. After that, this is a good question. Probably more into the early- this is really a good question. I am trying to think back on that. I started, when I started teaching ESL through the American Language Institute, and then at IS 201. So that would have been in (19)68. I started to feel like I could do something, maybe to help, you know, people in a way. But I would not say I felt great, great empowerment, but I think it might have started to develop then. And for example, I still have a letter that I got. When I was teaching ESL, I had small classes and I still remember this one student whose name was Carmen, who was, who was sent up to East Harlem to live with relatives. She was from Puerto Rico, and her English was very, very poor. And she was very miserable. And she was bullied. I mean, in today's terms, we would say, you know, she was bullied. Back then, we would just say she was having a hard time or something, you know, kids did not seem to like her. And I wrote her parents a letter, and told them that she was very unhappy, and that she really should go home. And they wrote me a letter back. And that is the letter I still have where they thanked me for that. And they brought her back home where she went to school, and she was, she was much happier. So maybe that was the first time ever. I felt like I had done something that had an impact or working with that small group of students at IS 201 Because I was hired by a committee of, I guess, the schools, administrators and parents from the community. That was the experimental, there were three schools: one in Harlem, one in Ocean Hill, Brownsville, and one in Chinatown. That were the community, they call them the community control schools.

SM: 23:13
Right.

HHA: 23:14
And that may have been, that experience may have been the first time I ever felt like, oh, you know, I can, I can do something. Because remember, I was not particularly encouraged to do that. I mean, my parents were very encouraging and supportive the years I worked at the Playhouse, you know, but I was an apprentice, so I was not an oh, I also became prop manager for a year, a 16-year-old prop manager who had to, you know, furnish the stage and everything. So that may have been a time when I felt some empowerment.

SM: 23:53
Well, I one of the things, I sense empowerment all throughout your books. I think you are a very good writer and you are able to express especially in the Yip Harburg book, I am this is kind of a follow up to the-the other question. Your writing centers on people and groups that challenge things as they are, not what they challenge things as they are not what they really should be in a democracy. Could you explain this? Because when you look at your books, and then not just Harburg Yip book but your book on the abolitionists, the one I am reading right now, women for peace, some of the other books, personalities during war and peace. Why is war and peace so important in your life, peace and justice is so important in your life as it was in Yip's? And, and then explain this other thing, you know, how your writings center on these issues? To me that is empowerment.

HHA: 24:56
Okay, [laughs] that is good to know. So then when I, when I was working on Cuba Times magazine that must have started to develop, because that was a, you know, a nonprofit enterprise, very nonprofit. And that, and it included writing these articles, you know, which was really great. There was a collective, we had about eight people of us putting out this magazine. And so, there might have been some there, but it was, you know, it was during that period, like from I guess (19)67 on where, where I started to become very aware of the politics, and started to go to demonstrations. And in (19)71, well, in (19)70, (19)69, (19)70, I spent the year in San Francisco, where my husband was doing a Master's degree. And, and I was teaching in, for in for a while in an at what they called an adult high school in San Francisco. And when I was there, there was a particular bookstore in Berkeley, that we used to go to that had half a shelf of books on the, quote, Women's Liberation Movement. And I started to read those books. I mean, really, there were so few of them. And I-I think that, you know, I had already been a little aware of the women's movement, but not part of it. And I became more aware from reading these books. Then, after the year was up, we moved back to New York, to Brooklyn, and I became involved in a local group in what is now the Park Slope neighborhood, which is a very prosperous neighborhood now- I could not live there now [laughs]. But I became involved in a group that was called Half of Brooklyn. And it was a women's, a local women's liberation group, a grassroots group that had consciousness raising group- smaller groups, and then also did community activism. For example, having it was not quite a demonstration, but standing outside Methodist hospital, and giving out leaflets in various languages to women who go into the clinic, informing them that they had a-a right to choose a doctor. If they did not like a doctor, if a doctor did not speak their language, and there was no translator available to them, they could request somebody else. So that that was the kind of political action we did, having, you know, not quite bake sales, but a place where there was used clothing and things that people could pick up. And so, I was I was involved with that group for-for some time. And then I, there was a family daycare center right there, across the street. And I convinced the so talking about empowerment, I convinced the director of that program, to institute classes in ESL and high school equivalency for the women who were taking care of the children. There were there was a there was a family daycare center where women were [inaudible], were paid to do daycare in their homes. But then, through my program, we arranged for them to come to the center. We had a professional taking care of the children for, you know, an hour or two, while the mothers were in the classroom, and we did ESL and GED classes there. So, I think I forgot your question.

SM: 29:39
No, you-you pretty much answered it, because you are evolving as not only a person but an activist.

HHA: 29:48
Yeah.

SM: 29:49
You are evolving just like Yip. Yip was an activist in the theater.

HHA: 29:53
Yeah.

SM: 29:54
And it is, it is how people evolve and you evolved during this timeframe. Step by step by step and empowerment. Tom, I just want to let you know that when Tom came to a former university I worked at, he met with the leaders of the student government and, and he basically said, "Do you get do students feel like you have power?" And he says, "Yeah, we control the budgets, we make decisions on who gets money and who does not." And Tom–

HHA: 30:20
Yeah.

SM: 30:20
-Tom was shaking his head. "That is not power."

HHA: 3
0:23 Yeah.

SM: 30:25
And then he asked him, "Have you ever heard of the term empower?" And they said, "No." And then, and then he kind of gave examples, and they were like, they had never heard of such a thing. It is like it was out in space. So, it is, uh, you know, and then it is a long story here, but-but it is the whole concept of feeling empowered, which is what students of the (19)60s or activists that were trying to do something to change things for the better felt, they felt empowered.

HHA: 30:55
Yeah, and I think the whole thing, like in Half of Brooklyn, and the thing that I liked about it, is that it was not just that I was feeling like I was doing something, but that we were also helping other women feel that. If a woman then walked into the clinic at Methodist Hospital, and-and expressed that she was not happy with the doctor, she had the way he treated- and what was mostly "he" at the time- treated her, or could not communicate with her, then we had empowered her to also change something that would help her. So, I think that was part of the appeal to me. And it was the same thing with the Cuba Times Magazine, is that, you know, we wrote a lot of articles, it was generally what we were doing was putting out the magazine, we were not really out there, you know, talking to anybody, but the articles could inform people, and maybe change them. So, the writing became, you know, part of that.

SM: 32:00
And the youth and activists of the (19)60s and early (19)70s were vocal about their desire to change the world for the better. There are a lot that, we are going to create a utopia almost in some sense. Did they did they, did they really become the, do those things? This is something I am always, you know, there are only 7 percent of the boomer generation, or the activists of the (19)60s and (19)70s, that really were involved in any sort of activism. So, it was not a large number, but the large, this group of people did have a tremendous influence on what was happening. I feel they played a very important role in ending the Vietnam War, for sure.

HHA: 32:43
Yeah.

SM: 32:44
And–

HHA: 32:44
But I think, but I think the movement that had the most, has had the most change, has been the women's movement.

SM: 32:52
Could you explain it in detail? In your own words.

HHA: 32:56
Well, you know, it is it. First of all, like it, it crosses everybody. I mean, if we are 51 percent of the population, I am not sure what percentage we are now, as women, it is, it is crossing all lines: class, race, ethnicity, all sorts of lines are being crossed. So, I will give you the basic example I always give when I say this, this movement has had the most profound effect. In (19)71, when I became a mother, if you walked your child, let us say on the weekend, in your, in the stroller in Prospect Park, and you saw a man with a child by himself, you would know almost 100 percent that that guy was separated or divorced. Now, okay, that was not always true, because my husband would take our kid out. But it was very much true. If you did that same thing today, you would see loads of men with kids. And you see single men with kids and gay couples with kids. And I think, you know, that is just the simplest, most basic change. Who, who is washing the dishes, who is cooking the dinner, who is taking care of the home, who has jobs, and is supporting families? On that very, very basic level, across almost all of our lives, things have changed. So, you could take the like, you could take a racist, hateful family, let us say somewhere in this country. And I bet in some ways you would have found the balance and the gender balance has shifted from the (19)70s to now in some way. So, I think that that is why I say that, that-that movement has had the most profound changes. I mean, we can talk about Roe v. Wade, or, you know how many women are working or voting or wages and all those battles that are still being fought, you know, but that there are so many more people involved in fighting them. But-but so, you know, the civil rights movement, you know, or even, I mean, the one that seems to have the least success is the antiwar movement.

SM: 35:35
You raise a good point here, because in a lot of the literature on the (19)60s, in the (19)70s, it talks about the fact that men were basically in the antiwar movement, it was run by men. Now, there were there were women who handed out leaflets, but they were not in positions of power and responsibility, like the men, however, and within the, that is one of the reasons why the woman's movement or the second wave may have gotten more powerful and successful because of that, moving into another area where women were in charge. And it you know, if you really study the civil rights movement, you know, how women were very important in that movement, both–

HHA: 36:17
Right.

SM: 36:17
-African American women and white women.

HHA: 36:20
Right.

SM: 36:22
So, it is when you when you look at the women for peace in the (19)60s and (19)70s. And of course, you are talking about in the book, the History of Women for Peace, what were the goals and the strategies, accomplishments or failures of, of that movement?

HHA: 36:44
I think, you know, when I look at the, the peace movement, like the whole picture of it, and I look, mostly, I looked at this country, pretty exclusively, and that had to do with the fact that I could not travel to archives in other countries, and I could not, and I do not, you know, I have some language ability, and I could have developed more. But, you know, those things were hindrances to me. I mean, when I was doing this research from the very beginning, I had full time jobs. I had family, had, you know, children, I mean, I know that many women handled all of that. But in my particular circumstances, I could not handle all of that. So, my research was, basically, of the US movement. So that is, that is what I talk about. And when I looked at that movement, and I talked about this in Peace as a Women's Issue in particular, that there were specific issues that were addressed. And they did not just, they were not all diplomatic history, like, it is almost like diplomatic history, and physical wars. I mean, they were priorities, but there was an underlying priorities that were very, very important. And the first one was the issue of violence against women. And I looked at that a lot, that it seemed that almost every group I looked at, and the one group that existed for the whole period, and still exists, is the Women's International League for peace and freedom of wills. They were always concerned about and always talked about that wherever there was the presence of a military, did not even have to be in war, that was bad news for women. There was always violence against women, whether it was physical, whether it was emotional, psychological, economic, whatever it was, where there is a military presence, and or a war, there this will affect the female population dramatically. And in the early years, they would not use the word rape, you know, or talk about that, but they were very, very specific about it. Then they there was the issue of women's equality and the right to vote, or the right to have equality in a government. Equal say, equal representation, that is also like a running theme through throughout the years of, of these organizations. So, the-the women's peace organizations have a specifically feminist agenda. As you know, opposed to the general peace movement, you know, or a very specific peace movement like, you know the difference between a, an antiwar organization and say, a peace or a pacifist organization. And there was even a difference there. But that an antiwar organization like during the Vietnam War is specifically to end that war, and the issues of that war, and then you see at, towards the end of it, or even before the end of it, the movement kind of dissolves. Right, and, you hear- yeah, and you hear stories of the leaders who just, you know, just go live their lives. And that is the end of it. Whereas a peace organization is involved in a more universal effort to try to have people live together, resolve issues without killing each other, and to improve human rights and the human condition. So, when I first started writing about the women's peace movement, I talked about in terms of women's rights, you know, the, the issues of anti-war and peace and women's rights. But by the time I got to the book on Yip, I had recognized I am not, they are not just talking about women's rights, they are talking about human rights.

SM: 40:30
Yes. Yeah.

HHA: 41:25
And so, in a way while I was writing these books, I will, I was educating myself. And I think the term came probably with the third one, which was the Garrison book "Growing Up Abolitionist," because at first, I mean, when I wrote the first book on the women's peace union, that was one organization. It was so fascinating. I mean, this was the first thing I ever wrote about history. You know, and remember I am coming from an English and theatre background. And even before I could even start studying the women's history, Gerda Lerner has said she used to come into the program, but she has got to take, I think it was 10 credits of history. And I did it at Brooklyn College. And she actually approved the instructors. I had to send to her what the courses where I wanted to take, and who was teaching them. And she said, "Yes, I will accept those people." And so, I did those 10 credits, and I went into the women's history program and that program, I just have to tell you, because at that time, it was the only one that existed in MA and women's history. And then they started to blossom during that time, the early (19)80s around. I mean, that just so changed the way I saw everything and, and I mean, I had hated studying history in high school and as an undergraduate, I hated every history course. So, like, when people who know me then found out I became a historian, they thought that was just like, the wildest thing they had ever heard. How did that happen? And because it because, you know, if you went to high school, when, you know, in the early (19)60s When I did, the history teachers all talked about men and war. They did not talk about anything else. And I and that is what when I first went to Sarah Lawrence and heard Gerda Lerner tuck in her class, it was like, Oh, my God, this is amazing. And I had been reading some stuff beforehand, and I had done my embroideries, which were very political. But I had never heard like, I had never sat in a class where this information was-was coming to me and I, the other person was Judy [Judith] Papachristou, who was teaching a wom- a US Women's History course. And I just said, I mean, my mouth must have fell open.

SM: 44:18
You talk, theater. It comes up in the book on Yip-Yip Harburg and, and some of the things I have read about you as well, and that is that it was the theater that would address issues like human rights and peace. Yip, I am going to ask questions about Yip so people who are listening to this will know who he is. But Yip would talk about when he has had those issues in Hollywood, that he can always go back to the theater in New York, and in his own subtle ways, be able to get messages into his lyrics and in the plays he was involved in, because he cared about human rights.

HHA: 45:01
But when I, and I used to go to theater a lot in high school. I used to take my bus from Paramus, New Jersey and you know, and my parents were very liberal in that sense, you know, I would stand at the stage door and get autographs and do all that stuff. Always matinees, by the way, because I was only a teenager and working in the theater, but I was not, I was not aware of the politics at that time. So, I could be singing lots Yip songs in my head. But I did not know what the message was. I mean, maybe it was subliminal, maybe I was getting the messages. But most of the stuff on Broadway was not that way, you know, not the musicals, and that was where I was heading. And but when I was working, when I was writing this book, you can see like each, each bookstore, it goes in a different direction. Like I start with the women's peace movement and the organizations. When I get to the Garrison's I am looking at a family and the individuals and how they grew up, and how did you make your child into a radical, how would you do that. And then I moved to it back to the theater, it is like, like, all these different parts of my life have in some way kept evolving around, like, they keep coming around. And like even now, like when I retired, which was in (20)15, that is when I went back to doing embroidery. And the political, it took me a while to get back into the political statements in the embroidery. But then I realized, oh, my God, I am coming around again. Like back to the starting point. So-so, when I went to Sarah Lawrence, I mean, it was a very, was a very demanding and very, in a way, structured and unstructured program. But the writing and the historical research, were very centered on how organizations worked. And I started to talk about, you know, issues like burnout or other things for the women involved. But it-it that did not, that turn did not happen till I got to the Garrisons because I was curious. I mean, every time I was writing about a peace organization, I was finding a Garrison. And I said, "Wait a minute, who are these people?" And I did not know hardly anything about William Lloyd Garrison, you know, and I knew mostly about Fannie Garrison Villard, his daughter. So that is what-what took me to the second stage of okay, away from organizations, I was getting tired of petitions, and writing about how many how do you lobby Congress, and how do you get people to sign petitions, and how do you organize in a group. So, I was kind of, like, I am a restless person, I guess. So, I was kind of tired of them. And I said, but I want to know what makes these people tick. And, and that is when I got into the Garrisons. At first, I thought, okay, I am going to just look into William Lloyd Garrison. And I found myself in the archives constantly looking at the personal papers of the communication between the parents and the children and the children and the children and their spouses. And I thought, Oh, this is, this is just fascinating. And, you know, I mean, my husband and I had raised, I have a son and a stepson, and we had raised them in a political environment. And I said, I wonder how those people did that, and did it work? And that is what you were referring to when you said about looking at the personal.

SM: 49:26
Yes.

HHA: 49:27
You know, and not only how did it connect with, you know, their religious beliefs or their political beliefs or whatever, but how did the family dynamics work? How-how do you make a child or create a child or influence a child to adopt your beliefs because apparently, I had, my parents had not been so successful [laughs] with me. But they had, in some ways they had, but in general they had not. So how did that work? And then I really got fascinated with people. And the Robert Sherwood project came up and that was because of the theater, you know, and I said, "oh, I just love the theater." And I was looking through, like a listing of NEH summer seminars. I said "Would not it be nice if-if I could go to a seminar, I would be earning some money in the summer, and I would learn something new." And so, I applied to one, and that was given at Columbia University in American playwrights from what year did he start it like, (19)20 up or some, somewhere around there. And the professor who headed it, Howard Stein was-was very, very famous in the theater world as, as a professor, I did not know that. But he was also an old lefty. And when I went in, and we had to have a project, he said to me, I think you should look at Robert Sherwood. I think you would like him. And that is, that is how I got into it. And I was interested again, how did this man become? who he was, you know, working in the theater, writing plays, writing films, he was also around the same- he and Yip were born within a few days apart from each other. You know, how did they develop into who they were. And Yip, I had, I had always liked him. I had earlier thought about writing about him. But I could not get permission from his son, who gave me a blanket "no." And then, when Wesleyan University Press asked me to do this book, I told them, it would depend, depend on if I could win over Ernie Harburg and I, I had lunch with him one day, and, and was successful with certain provisions like he had to read everything as I was writing it. Though he did not, really, he made very few comments about it. But he, you know, was like something I had to agree to-to, to do it.

SM: 52:36
Before we get into talking about Yip in more detail here, I would like just your thoughts on briefly the women that you were thought were the major figures of the (19)60s and the (19)70s. I just I just out of curiosity, I wrote down 10 names and they do not have to be your 10 names. But these are the, Betty Friedan, Pat Schroeder, Susan Brownmiller, Shirley Chisholm, Carol Hanisch, Phyllis Schlafly, Angela Davis, Kathleen Cleaver, Gloria Steinem and Jane Fonda. I just, these are names that just come up. These are like (19)60s, people (19)60s, early (19)70s. They do not have to be your names. But who do you feel were the most important women leaders, feminists of the period, (19)60 to (19)75?

HHA: 53:34
Well, I was sure I agree with Gloria Steinem and Angela Davis, I thought she was really fantastic. And I still remember when she was arrested at the Women's House, she was in the Women's House of Detention in Greenwich Village for when it was standing there for a little bit. And I remember going down there and we would all wave to her, you know, from the sidewalk or wave to somebody we thought was her. Definitely her. Friedan was important. I definitely, you know, not my cup of tea, but she-she was important. Shirley Chisholm was, you know, being a New Yorker. Well, I would have would have included some more of the civil rights women. You know Fannie Lou Hamer's name was always presented, you know, like somebody that we could really admire. Since I was interested in what was happening between the US and Cuba, there were some Cuban women whose names would come up or this is where, you know, I told you that in my email to you, I tell you, I had a stroke about two years ago, well it is exactly two years ago. And the one thing that it affected mostly is parts of my memory. And so sometimes I have trouble bringing up names,

SM: 55:19
Bella [crosstalk] Another one was Bella Abzug was on that list too. So.

HHA: 55:25
Yeah, and these are, you know, very local, like, for me, there was a local thing about some of the women. But your list is, you know, I mean, Phyllis Schlafly, I would not want to see her on that list [laughs].

SM: 55:45
Yeah, well she was-

HHA: 55:45
And I know what you are saying. Because but it was such a negative influence.

SM: 55:50
Right.

HHA: 55:51
You know, like, who wants to remember her or give her any sort of accolades?

SM: 55:58
Before-before we talk about Yip. See here. I have lost my train of thought here. My golly, I did. I actually I really want to get into Yip. Because I just think this book that you have written is-is should be read by everybody. Anybody that cares about the (19)60s in the (19)70s, the boomer generation, may probably have not heard about Yip. And Yip, Yip to me, it really is a figure, especially when, when he was being interviewed, or young TV shows in the (19)70s. I mean, he is really a (19)60s guy even though he was in his (19)80s I, and I just, I am amazed at it. And I just like if you could say in your own words, who is Yip Harburg?

HHA: 56:51
Okay, so first, what I just want to explain to you is that when I was asked to do the book, they explained to me that this was for a series on music and interviews. And they had some people who are just printing out interviews of people. And I said, "Well, how would you feel about if I try, if I use the interviews to have Yip tell his own story in a way, it is like, an autobiographical biography, you know, kind of a mix of that." And they said that was okay. So, you know, Yip well, almost everybody knows either "Brother, Can you Spare a Dime," but certainly "Over the Rainbow." Like, they are, I do not think there is a person, maybe in this world, but definitely not in this country who does not know the Wizard of Oz, the movie version, the musical movie version. And so there, there, he is a presence, who, like you say, is not a presence. Like people do know who he is. But they do not recognize his name. He does not have name recognition. And even sometimes, if I am listening to a radio program or something that is playing music, and they will play something and they will say, Okay, this was written by Harold Arlen, and I say, wait a minute, wait a minute. You are forgetting Yip Harburg wrote the lyrics. You know, and, and they will just, I do not know why, but kind of slide over him. To me, he-he was this extremely human, courageous writer. He had this tremendous joy in life, even though he came from a very poor background, who believed in social justice, in peace and human rights and somehow figured out how to get these messages across to people in an extremely entertaining way. You know, I mean, people hear his songs and sing his songs over and over and over again. But do not connect necessarily the songs with the man. Did that answer the question? Yeah.

SM: 59:34
Yep, yes, it did. I, there is two quotes that I want to put in this interview that you wrote in your book and these are Yip, Harburg quotes. Let me get my glasses here. And I just want people, and you can comment on him as well: "I feel there is no such thing as right or left. There is forward and backward. Now in the evolution of man, he has to go forward, which means he has to make change, or else he would stay where he was when he was a Neanderthal. But every change involves a trauma. And we all take [inaudible] change, and we are all afraid to follow who wants a little more change." And then another little quote on him is, "The activist always wants to change, he feels there is something better, but you have got to do it politically too. If the system does not work and if there is bigotry, if there is racism, if there is injustice, if there is one guy with all the wealth in the world, and another guy, starving, and nobody does anything for this guy, you got to want to say, I want change. That is why I want to take care of the Lyric, get something better." I mean, those are, I mean, that is, that is a mentality of and when you think of the (19)60s and (19)70s, about doing changing the world for the better. And of course, this is wave of you know, he was thinking these thoughts many, many years earlier. It is just like, human rights. This is about human rights, justice, equality. And this, this is a man who really is for all time, not just, you know, the (19)60s. Right. Yeah. And with and, and definitely, I mean, "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime" was iconic at its time in it is time. So, it was not like he wrote this song, and then nobody listened to it. And then, you know, 30 years later, they discovered it. This was a song that people identified with at the time that he wrote it. And, and he just kept going. [buzzing] Yeah, but one of the things here, I brought up earlier about the theater. Yip always believed that the theater was the place where people had guts to speak up and say things. And, and you see it throughout, you know, and he did things in subtle ways. So that he, you know, he was such a gifted lyricist, that they would still hire him even though, you know, during the McCarthy era. And another time, people were always looking when he was having to say, because it corrects me if I am wrong, you know, the theater is about entertainment, but was with Yip, theater is about entertainment, plus, there is got to be a message.

HHA: 1:02:23
Yeah. And when and when Hollywood turned his back on him, that was where he could go, he could go back to the theater, you know, and, and use and be productive there generally. I mean, I, it is interesting, because, you know, Finian's Rainbow is in some ways a problematic show to be done today. And because, you know, you, you, have you seen Finian's Rainbow?

SM: 1:02:56
Yes, I have.

HHA: 1:02:57
Okay, so you know the part where the racist white Senator, is changed through from by a wish into a Black person to so that he can, and then he can experience racism. But the question became, how do you do that then, on the stage now. Like, I saw a production at the Irish Rep in New York, that used like a paper mask. So-so when the character was when the senator was, his race was changed, the actor, held up like a paper mask. I saw it done on Broadway, where they changed the actor. A white actor played the white senator, a Black actor played the Black senator. But it presents a lot of problems for the show. I do not know if it, I do not know if it could be done today. You know, if we will ever see it done again. Though, I thought that that the last way that it was done was the most effective and most honest way.

SM: 1:04:16
I would like your thoughts. Obviously, you are a lover of theater and when you went to the theater in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and there were certain plays that were really apropos to that particular time, obviously Hair. Hair and then we had Jesus Christ Superstar. These were monumental plays that were on Broadway and all over the country. What, how would Yip, how would Yip respond to the play Hair and Jesus Christ Superstar, which are two of the big ones from that period, would they meet his criteria of the way plays should be and what are your thoughts? Were there, were there a lot more plays than I am even listing here that were involved with having a (19)60s mentality, but also with messages?

HHA: 1:05:10
Well, there is all there is always some and I was just, there is a new magazine out. I do not know if you have seen it-it is called Encore.

SM: 1:05:17
Yes, I have.

HHA: 1:05:19
Yeah. And this new issue that came out has an article about the, from the Asian American community. And they mentioned a musical called Allegiance. Have you have a, do you know what, that musical?

SM: 1:05:35
No, I do not.

HHA: 1:05:36
Well, George Takei who was the actor who was in Star Trek.

SM: 1:05:43
Yep.

HHA: 1:05:44
Okay, so he this, this musical, which he was involved with, and-and was in was based on some of his experience as a child in a Japanese internment camp in the West, and a very effective musical, was really quite good. And it opened on Broadway, it did not have a long run. And the day that I went did not have a full house. You know, so they are still I mean, now everybody is wondering how the pandemic and the politics of the Black Lives Matter movement is going to change the way theater is. Now that it is coming back. From the list of shows that are reopening on Broadway, they are all almost all the shows that were there before. And I do not know if there have been casting changes or how you know, what is happening. But that does not reflect a huge change. However, I did read about a musical that had opened in California, that is supposed to come to Broadway, though I did not see it on the list anymore called, I think it is called Paradise Square, which is about the Five Points neighborhood of Manhattan during the draft riots of the Civil War. And the, it looks to be a very interracial cast. And the message would be very up to date, you could say. So, there is always that strain going through the theater. But those shows do not always last long. Because and some of that has to do, if we are only talking about Broadway, that has to do with the whole tourist, the use of Broadway as a tourist attraction, rather than as a theater hub, so to speak, you know, which does not stop me from going by the way. [crosstalk] But, you know, I find myself being more selective. But-but with Hair what-what Yep said, and I have some quotes from him in the book is that he could not tolerate the-the use of rock music and musical.

SM: 1:08:02
Okay.

HHA: 1:08:03
To him, almost like it hurt his ears. You know, that it was too loud that it will you could not understand the lyrics. And I find that sometimes, too, you know, so he likes [inaudible], he likes Fiddler on the Roof, but he was having trouble with the rock musical. So, I think with some of the musicals that have been done that are very loud and very modern, he would have trouble with, but it is more like a stylistic trouble problem than a message problem. But he would have preferred a different type of music for the message. So, we could say he was getting old. [laughs] You know, and that, you know, I have that same problem.

SM: 1:08:57
Right.

HHA: 1:08:57
Sometimes, if I go to the theater, and I used to love rock musicals, but now-now when I go, I find it hard on my ears or I cannot catch the lyrics. And that is, you know, it becomes entwined with the message.

SM: 1:09:15
Well, I know that, that Yip liked musicals and he not-not always just straight acting with, but did he ever link up with Arthur Miller? Because as-as a whole concept of Willy Loman, I mean that, was there ever any collaboration between him are just talking? Did he like Miller's plays?

HHA: 1:09:38
I do not remember that. And I am I cannot answer that.

SM: 1:09:44
Yeah because Miller had a lot of messages in his plays as well.

HHA: 1:09:48
Yeah. I mean, I am sure that he went to a lot of play- I should not say I am sure, how do I know. But I would assume he went to a lot of plays and that he would have enjoyed those, you know, appreciated those. The person that I knew, you know, better in terms of research, Robert Sherwood in terms of regular plays, he who also wrote political plays, did go to everything musical and dramatic plays and did have an appreciation and want to foster those. So, there were people out there, you know, who did.

SM: 1:10:34
It, the thing is, with Yip, and I want to include this because this kind of links up to the-the (19)60s and the (19)70s, that in the (19)60s and (19)70s. In the latter part of your book, you talk about his involvement with things like the 10th annual recognition of Brown versus Board of Education. He was involved in a tribute to Benjamin Spock, linked to saying, he was involved in the anti-war movement. He loved going on college campuses and talking about a lot of these things. And, and then there is another quote here that you have in your book, "You, younger people, I hope, will have learned from the struggles, that if the goal was good, nothing will divide you."

HHA: 1:11:20
Yeah.

SM: 1:11:20
And he would, and so he was, so he was he was linking up with the generation in his commentaries. I-I, he was a man before his time. I mean, I, you again, I cannot just say it, I think you have done a tremendous job with this book.

HHA: 1:11:37
[laughter] Thank you. I mean, I would, I would think that he would definitely be supportive of the Black Lives Matter movement, you know, or any of the movements right now to try to bring diversity to the theater. I mean, he was one of the first, who, who brought diversity to the theater, I mean, in the casting of Finian's Rainbow, and other thing of wanting to have the chorus be interracial. And the message is to embrace civil rights and human rights. So, you know, I, I would think that he would have always been that way.

SM: 1:12:11
One of the questions that I have never asked, just this is the first time of asking this particular question, because I want to see a comparison here, when you compare what happened on the streets of America in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, particularly in (19)68, and compare it to what is happening in the streets of America in these last few years, (20)20, (20)20, (2021, even earlier? How do they compare, and how do they differ? And let me let me preface this by saying, I personally, and this is not about me, it is about you and your thoughts. But I feel they are not the same like many people do. They say it is a revival of the (19)60s. And I think [inaudible] to me, there is just, I am not sure if people feel empowered, and they do not ever use the term encounter, which was so important in the (19)60s.

HHA: 1:13:03
Well, I think that now, first of all, they are much more diverse. I mean, the demonstrations have all sorts of people, all sorts of ages and races. So, in that way, I think there-there is a difference. In the in the (19)60s, many of the demonstrations in terms of the Vietnam War were white. And there were pock- you know, like, everybody kind of moved in a pocket of you know, you had a banner that said what your organization was. And the people marched, you usually marched with an organization and the same thing with the women's marches. So that if there was a Black presence or say, a Puerto Rican presence, it would be with that flag or that sign. I think with the demonstrations now, it is more of a mixture of people together. I mean, they may be holding banners, but they are not necessarily for specific organizations, and you march with that group. So, I think that there is a big difference there in that I think there were still in the, and in the, in the demonstrations let us see, in the (19)70s and the late (19)60s, I went to anti-war demonstrations, women's demonstrations, and there were a few Cuba demonstrations. They, in the women's demonstrations you would see like children, you know, in strollers or with their parents and you see children in these demonstrations today, though, I think at night if there is a threat of violence there is always fewer. You know, parents do not want to bring their kids to that. But I think that, I mean, I have been really like heartened by the demonstrations now, because they have been large. And they have had a lot of different kinds of people. And they have had human rights. Even though even if it is Black Lives Matter, it has got a broader perspective than that, as did the ones in the (19)60s as well, there would, but it was usually through organizations. So, say WILF had a contingent in an anti-war demonstration, they might be carrying banners about women's rights in there, but it would be in, in that group, you know, what I am saying?

SM: 1:16:00
[agreement]

HHA: 1:16:02
So, I think there is no difference what is, what is, all may be. I do not know, like, um, you know, the demonstrations I went to were in New York City, I should say that, so that I cannot talk about demonstrations all over the world. But the people on the sidelines, I mean, the people who have been violent, today are more violent than the people who were violent against the demonstrators in the (19)60s and (19)70s. I mean, I remember being in demonstrations, where, you know, people would yell things at you from the sidelines. But in most of those demonstrations, they did not cross the barriers.

SM: 1:16:57
Right.

HHA: 1:16:58
To attack you. However, I remember, there were demonstrations, particularly if they had to do with the blockade against Cuba, where the police would be there with the horses in that case, to protect the demonstrators, there was a little difference, because there were the anti-Castro Cubans on the sidelines-

SM: 1:17:24
Right.

HHA: 1:17:25
-threatening violence. In the women's demonstrations, and the anti-Vietnam War demonstrations, there were a lot of people shouting and yelling, and there were horses, but in that case, in those cases, I remember the demonstrators being more nervous about the horses.

SM: 1:17:45
Right.

HHA: 1:17:47
You know, and whenever you went to a demonstration, and the NYPD had the horses out, there was always like, just a little sense of, "be careful."

SM: 1:17:58
I would like your thought, you know, kind of a push for a Yip again. Why do you, why do you think it would be important for people to understand the importance of Yip Harburg with respect to what took place in the (19)60s in the (19)70s? When you look at this, you study the history of that period, how can you place Yip, in there as well, even though he might have been an 80-year-old at the at the time, but just about his life's work, just for future generations, to show that, you know, he is linked to this era?

HHA: 1:18:37
Well, I think, you know, that is exactly what you are saying is like he, I always I like to look at things as a continuum, that these movements and these people, it travels through time, you know, in the best sense of it. Like we were saying, you know, an anti-war movement can stop, but a peace movement keeps going. A women's movement keeps going, a human rights movement keeps going. And with that, it is nice if people understood that they did not create this, I mean it always, it really bothers me when people say, "Well, we created this movement, and we create, we are the first to demonstrate about this and we are the first to speak out for human rights." I say, "You know, come on, you know, put your ego aside- -and look a little bit in the past and you will see there is a continuum in the in this country even before the anti-slavery movement." But for me, it was that that mixed race, Civil Rights movement called the abolitionist movement or the Underground Railroad activity, that showed that people work together for these common goals. And they kept going, whether it was through generations of families which I tried to do in the Garrisons whether it was through creative work like Robert Sherwood and Yip Harburg, whether it was through organizations like WILF or that they, you have a history do you have people who shared your ideas before you were even born. And these people's ideas you can use, and their experiences you can use to move forward.

SM: 1:19:26
Right. It is like-

HHA: 1:20:32
You can build on them and grow on them. And you can sing, you know, you can look back at popular culture, you can cry with Robert Sherwood and you can sing with Yip Harburg and laugh with him and, and bring the-the movements forward.

SM: 1:20:51
It, that was beautifully said. The first time I went to Seneca Falls, I went with my dad, and we visited Elizabeth Cady Stanton's home. And, and when you go in there-there is not a lot of furniture, but there is a sofa. And I can remember the person showing us the house said, "On that sofa at one time, this is the original sofa. Elizabeth Cady Stanton was on the left, Susan B. Anthony, was on the right and Frederick Douglass was in the middle," the connection between civil rights and women's rights, I mean, all the way back to eight- now that-that was she started in (18)48. But this is later on when Frederick Douglass was older. This is history. It is a continuum, just like you just check you mentioned. I am going to conclude here with just a couple thoughts, your just your thoughts on these things. How did the JFK assassination affect you personally, and how did you think affected the nation? And the second one is how did the killings at Kent State do the same?

HHA: 1:21:56
I was in my first year of college when JFK was assassinated. And you know, it was, it was devastating. You know, I mean, it was, for me at that time he was like, you know, a young hero and the creator of the Peace Corps. Later, I kind of became, you know, questions more about his legacy, his politics and everything else. But it was, it was frightening at that period. Now I was only like 18 years old or something, so it was very personal, in a way. And my, one of my sisters was getting married the next day. And I remember thinking, Oh, this is really terrible, she should not, you know, why should she get married? JFK was just assassinated. You know, because it was that personal. And I was very young. I might see that differently, you know, today. And in terms of Kent State, it was, it shook, you know, it was like a, it shook me. What is going on in this country? Why are innocent people being killed? You know, and those questions still bother me. You know, what is going on in this country? I mean, ugly, hateful things are going on here. And, you know, what sometimes gets you down. You know, as you try to cope with it,

SM: 1:23:43
You know, that whole year (19)68 was a downer.

HHA: 1:23:47
Oh yeah.

SM: 1:23:47
Because, you know, we lost Dr. King–

HHA: 1:23:49
Yeah.

SM: 1:23:49
-We lost a Bobby Kennedy. We lost–

HHA: 1:23:53
Yep.

SM: 1:23:53
-A few other people as well. And then of course, what happened in Chicago, we will never forget.

HHA: 1:23:59
Yeah, I mean, my husband and I met on April 4 (19)67. And we were celebrating the first year of knowing each other on April 4, (19)68. And we had gone to a little club in the village where we heard BB King and Janis Joplin.

SM: 1:24:20
Oh, wow.

HHA: 1:24:21
And we came out and heard, you know, about Martin Luther King.

SM: 1:24:29
Yeah that was–

HHA: 1:24:31
So, it was like, you know, and then it just it was like, boom, boom, boom, one after another. You know, it is very, yeah, it was, [crosstalk] I do not know, a scary time to yet when you look back at all of these things, and then you look at today, you say, those were scary times. What about today?

SM: 1:24:52
Oh, yeah, I, it is pretty scary today.

HHA: 1:24:55
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SM: 1:24:57
When you when-when you, when did the (19)60s begin in your point of view, and when did it end?

HHA: 1:25:06
For-for me personally, it probably started around (19)67. Though, as a historian, of course, I know it started way before that. Well, I do not know. For me, it may actually have started before that. When I was in high school, I first became aware of Vietnam through a foreign exchange student. So, I was hearing the other side of the story, so to speak. Would have been around (19)62. So, maybe my first encounter with it might have been around (19)62. But then, you know, I lived in this New Jersey not knowing anything bubble. So, it would have been more like (19)67 For me, and you are saying, when did it end?

SM: 1:25:54
Yes.

HHA: 1:25:55
Oh, they have never ended. [laughter]

SM: 1:25:58
Yeah, I remember, George saying, "It is over," and I do not think so. He called [crosstalk] he called he called the Vietnam War Syndrome is over. So.

HHA: 1:26:09
Well you know, the spirit and the awarenesses, you know, that came from, you know, was not just the second wave of-of a women's movement. But, I mean, the Civil Rights Movement had been continuous. But you know of a wave that, you know, from the (19)50s or late (19)40s, that grows. So, between the Civil Rights wave and the women's movement wave, and probably, you know, the emergence of this specific antiwar movement, but maybe a peace movement wave, you know, those are still going.

SM: 1:26:51
Well, what, to you, what is the watershed moment of your life?

HHA: 1:26:57
I hope I have not reached it yet. No, I do not know [laughs]. Watershed moment, it was probably. Gosh, it was probably the spring of (19)67. Probably.

SM: 1:27:18
And what was that?

HHA: 1:27:19
Because that was the first time I ever went to a demonstration, and became really aware of Vietnam. And, you know, and yes, being in the village, and at that time, I had also moved to the East Village. So being aware of the, of hippies, and, you know, Flower Power. Yeah. So.

SM: 1:27:46
My, my very last question has to deal with the issue of healing. You know, we talked today that the divide that took place, a lot of people, commentators who say that we are still divided as a nation, because we are dealing with the culture wars that began in the (19)60s, and they have never ended. So, and, and the question I have always asked a lot of the people if you have heard any of the interviews, is that how important to you know, we have not healed as a nation. And the Vietnam Wall was built by Jan Scruggs and others to try to heal the veterans themselves and their families in the war. But how, he wrote a book, "To Heal a Nation" And the question is, is this nation does, it has not healed at all, from the Vietnam War. And, and look at all the other issues, and a lot of people believe that the movements that were so crucial that defined the (19)60s and (19)70s are part of that culture wars, and that we are still fighting them today, you know, where you hear people saying we are taking two- one step forward and two steps backward when some people want us to go back rather than forward and some people do not want us to continue to go forward and forget the you know, what was happening back in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Just your final thoughts on, have we healed as a nation in your thoughts in any way? Or and we are, where are we heading?

HHA: 1:29:17
Well, we were broken before the Vietnam War, certainly. And, I mean, it just seems to me at this at this moment, it has just gotten worse. It is- healing? I do not think so. I mean, I have part of my family lives in Missouri. I have always had a very hard time visiting them. My sister married somebody from Missouri. Very, very nice people, but they I cannot talk to them. And it is even worse you know, because at least they got vaccinated but people around them you know, in terms of the pandemic, and in terms of Black Lives Matter. I mean, I cannot. I cannot talk about politics with my family, and I am sure you have heard that,

SM: 1:30:18
Well it is the same way, in some respects was mine as well. And you raise a very good point, because when I first started asking this question, in my very first interviews for this project, it was, it was concentrating on the Vietnam Memorial and the healing of the nation from the Vietnam War. And not and it has gotten to the point now that we, we cannot heal- we have, we have healing issues, in just about every movement we are talking about, and-and everything.

HHA: 1:30:44
Yeah, I mean, we have not healed from the Civil War. So, you know [laughs].

SM: 1:30:49
Yeah, and in fact Edmund-Edmund, we asked Edmund Muskie that question on a leadership on the road trip, and, and when we asked that question to him, you know, healed since the Vietnam War, he all of a sudden, had a melodramatic pause. And he had tears coming down his eyes. And he had just gotten out of the hospital when we met him to meet with a group of students. And he said, we have not healed since the Civil War.

HHA: 1:31:16
See? I am glad that I, that I have echoed him.

SM: 1:31:22
Yep. Well, you-you hit you hit a very important point. Are there any other things you would like to say? Anything you thought I might ask you that I did not?

HHA: 1:31:33
No, you have been very thorough. [laughs] Thank you.

SM: 1:31:37
Well, thank you very much. Now, what I will do is when we are done here, we will get a copy and we will mail it to you. And then you will listen to it. And then if it is okay, then we will put it on site.

HHA: 1:31:52
Okay, thank you.

SM: 1:31:53
Yeah. And I just, if you could mail to my email address, your mailing address, and then we will, we will have it sent.

HHA: 1:32:02
Okay, I will do that.

SM: 1:32:03
And all I have to say is- it is an honor to talk to you. I just hope you keep writing more and more books. This is that I am a bibliophile, and I have read hundreds and hundreds of books. This is in my top 50 books of all time.

HHA: 1:32:21
Oh, thank you.

SM: 1:32:21
And-and, and I love it, just keep doing it.

HHA: 1:32:26
Thank you.

SM: 1:32:27
You have a great day.

HHA: 1:32:28
You too.

SM: 1:32:29
Take care. Bye now.

HHA: 1:32:30
Bye.

SM: 1:32:30
Bye.

(End of Interview)

2021-08-05

Stephen McKiernan

Dr. Harriet Hyman Alonso

Dr. Harriet Hyman Alonso has been Professor Emerita of History at the City College of New York and the CUNY Graduate Center since 2015. She has written extensively about peace history. Her books include the now-classic Peace as a Women’s Issue: A History of the U.S. Movement for World Peace and Women’s Rights and the award-winning, Growing Up Abolitionist: The Story of the Garrison Children. In the fall of 2012, Wesleyan University Press will publish her newest work, Something Sort of Grandish: Yip Harburg on Lyrics, Laughter, and Human Rights. She earned an M.A. in Women’s History from Sarah Lawrence College and a Ph.D. in History from Stony Brook University.

1:32:36

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Baby boom generation; 1960s; 1970s; Women's history; Women's Rights Movement; Abolition; Peace movement; Suffragettes; Peace Movement.