Interview with Joy Yagman

Interview with Joy Yagman

Yagman, Joy ; Gashurov, Irene

2019-07-05

In Copyright

Joy Yagman.mp3

2019-07-05

Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni

31:26 minutes

21a96593-866f-41ab-9c23-3b39359e2430

Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Joy Yagman
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 5 July 2019
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(Start of Interview)

JY: 00:00
Joy Yagman. I graduated in 1972. I am here with Irene doing an interview.

IG: 00:09
Okay, very good. So, tell us, Joy, where did, where did you grow up? Who your parents were? You know what they did? What your childhood was like, and whether your parents encouraged education.

JY: 00:27
Okay, so does all of this get put, or you just, like, edit? Okay, fine. Okay, all right.

IG: 00:33
Just-just talk.

JY: 00:34
Okay, so I was born in Brooklyn, raised mostly out on eastern Long Island in a small town called Mount Sinai, which is one mile east of Port Jefferson. Okay, my parents definitely encouraged education. I did very well in all the, all the school grades. Okay, graduated with a Regents scholarship, dean's list, everything. Actually, I was in the top 10 percent of my high school graduating class. Okay, my mother was mostly for her career as an administrative assistant. She worked for different companies when we lived in Brooklyn, which was on and off for a while, but mostly on Long Island; she actually was an administrative assistant to some of the deans at Stony Brook University.

IG: 01:29
Yeah.

JY: 01:29
Okay. So interestingly enough, during college vacations, even during high school vacations, she would always find me a job at SUNY Stony Brook. I actually took some courses during college summers at Stony Brook if I needed to make up a course or if I needed to get some extra credit. So that is my mom. Okay, my dad was a dental technician. He worked for a lab in New York City, and this is when we were living out in Mount Sinai. He would get up at 4 o'clock in the morning, take the Long Island Rail Road into New York like a 5 o'clock a.m. train, and would not come home till 8 o'clock. He finally stopped doing that when I think I was maybe a teenager. It was too hard on him. It was crazy, and he started doing his own self-employment dental technician-type work, never really made a lot of money. Okay, he had a lot of hobbies. He actually built the house that I grew up in with his own bare hands.

IG: 02:36
Wow!

JY: 02:36
Never had a construction background at all. He basically got some help from a couple of my mother's brothers, and they would come out on weekends. And the house was built. He added on a kitchen when I was growing up, and the floor that went from the living room to the kitchen somehow-I guess he did not balance it well enough, so the floor had a slight Slope, but so that is it with my parents. lived in a lived in Brooklyn on and off a couple of times. Went to high school in 10th grade at Abraham Lincoln High School.

IG: 03:12
Where is that?

JY: 03:13
Ocean Parkway near Brighton in Brighton Beach. Every time we would move into the city, my parents could not stand it, so we would move back to the same house that I grew up in, and the main reason that we moved into the city was because they felt that I needed, you know, some a little bit more socialization because it was quite isolated out there.

IG: 03:34
Yeah. So-so, you were a very good student, yeah, and you applied to Harpur College. Why?

JY: 03:43
My guidance counselor at Port Jefferson High School strongly recommended it. I applied to Stony Brook, Barnard, and Harpur. Okay, Stony Brook was way too close for comfort. Okay, I did not want to live in a dorm that was seven miles away from home. That was not, and that was not ideal. My parents actually wanted me to go away. Okay, get out, learn about life on your own. I do not think I got accepted to Barnard, or it is possible that the tuition and cost may have been way more than my parents could handle,

IG: 04:21
And this was what year?

JY: 04:23
1968. I actually was waitlisted for Harpur, okay, and I was just hoping and praying that it would come through. It came through. I was ecstatic, like. So, my guidance counselor strongly encouraged it. One of the main reasons was, and whether you or not want to include this or not, Mount Sinai. We were the only Jewish family, and she said, "Look, you know, it has been difficult for you because you have been the only Jew in Mount Sinai, even though the feeder school was Port Jefferson High School. Okay, and there were some Jewish students." There, but I wanted to be amongst some people who I felt familiar with, and yet at the same time I wanted to be in a school that had a lot of different people. So, she suggested Harpur because she knew that there were a lot of downstate people. Okay, she knew that I would feel comfortable, and yet the irony is, whereas Lynn from Little Falls, New York, which is upstate, but she and I were first-year roommates, and we just meshed right away.

IG: 05:28
Right. Yeah. Right.

JY: 05:28
Yeah.

IG: 05:29
Right.

JY: 05:29
So.

IG: 05:30
Right. So, what was the reputation of Harpur College at the time?

JY: 05:34
It was quite high. It was probably as high as it is now. I still do some alumni volunteering, and I know that it still ranks quite high. It was like either the best or one of the best in either the public scenario school system, or even compared to schools like Princeton, Harvard, things like that. It had the highest ranking, and since I was in the top 10 percent of my high school class, it was like it was like perfect. It was meant to be.

IG: 06:05
Yeah, but it had also a reputation of being a little bit progressive and-

JY: 06:11
Yeah-yeah.

IG: 06:12
So-so, what about that part? Did you hear about it from the guidance counselor?

JY: 06:17
Yeah, my guidance counselor really did not mention that part, and I do not think that was, the that was the main focus of it. But once I got there, I saw that it was progressive, and I was perfectly happy with that. You know, I felt comfortable. It felt, it felt like home.

IG: 06:33
Yeah. Oh, that-that is a wonderful feeling.

JY: 06:35
Yeah.

IG: 06:36
That is a wonderful feeling. Yeah. So, did you have an idea of what course of studies you wanted to pursue or not?

JY: 06:43
No-no, not at all. God, my brother, okay, who now lives in California, who has lived in California for quite a while, is five and a half years older than I am. He had already gone to college when I had applied. Okay, he had already been in college for about a year or so, and he was my advisor, and he said, "Why do not you take intro to this, intro to that, intro to this?" And I almost flunked out freshman year.

IG: 07:16
What were the courses?

JY: 07:18
Introduction to Political Science, Introduction to-to oh God, sociology, maybe one smaller class okay I almost and I when I say almost flunked out, I got a D in the sociology class okay and I was actually on oh God there was a name for it when your when your [inaudible] is below 2.0-

IG: 07:43
Probation.

JY: 07:44
-you are going like yeah okay, and the shock of that especially when my parents got the note okay, that threw me into got to do better okay. So, after that, I got my act together, and I started getting, like, in the high point, 2.3 point. Okay, I was on the Dean's List for a couple of semesters. High- college was a bit of a struggle for me. I have to admit. Okay, until I finally found my niche. So-

IG: 08:07
What was your niche?

JY: 08:17
That is sort of hard to say. And I know that sounds funny. I ended up leaning towards history, and I really liked history. And yet, at the same time, I really loved the French language. Okay, so I was always toggling between history courses and French courses. My dream was to go abroad to France. Never made it. Okay, I actually ended up switching majors from French to history because I found out too late that the French program was more based on literature as opposed to oral.

IG: 08:54
Yeah.

JY: 08:54
And my, you know-

IG: 08:56
You wanted to speak.

JY: 08:57
Right. Okay, so that was why I made the switch. But once I switched to history, I think, like in junior year, I felt more comfortable, and I felt better about myself. So, and I wanted to teach also. So, that ended up resulting in some teaching later on. Okay. So.

IG: 08:57
Any-any professors? Well, it is interesting how you searched and discovered your niche. That is very important, I think.

JY: 09:23
Yeah-yeah.

IG: 09:24
And it is, it is so good that you did it in your undergraduate career.

JY: 09:28
Right.

IG: 09:29
Were there any courses that are standouts and really decided you on French and history? Did you what-what made them compatible? Okay.

JY: 09:44
Okay. I do not. I-I was actually thinking about this before you came, and I was trying to remember. Okay, I do remember. I did take a course. I remember the guy's name to a professor Del Fium. He taught World War II history, maybe that sort of rings a bell, or maybe including the FDR period. And I really liked that course, and I enjoyed writing the essays and reports on that. Okay, but and as far as French, oh gosh, now it is coming back. I did take an oral French class with a professor, Blagan, like he was from France, and he just spoke so beautifully and so fluently. He was sort of like my inspiration, but that was when I finally realized, oops, there was not that many courses like that, and I found it somewhat hard to do the heavy reading in the French lit classes. That was really hard.

IG: 10:50
Without-without a good foundation in the language.

JY: 10:53
Yeah, yeah. But interestingly enough, so this is really funny. In my junior year, a cousin of mine ended up starting at Binghamton, okay, for her undergraduate degree, and she lives in the city still. Okay, we still stay in touch, and she was taking a French class, and she was struggling with it just like I had been. Okay, but she was at a much lower level than I was at. Okay, and I actually tutored her for about a semester because she was having such a hard time. Yeah. So, she still sometimes thanks me and acknowledges to me. "You always helped me with my friends," she said, and I said, "Oh my God," like I-I was struggling myself too, but at least I was able to help her, so that made me feel good. So that made me feel good.

IG: 11:44
And also, that you have learned enough foundational French to teach her, you know, the-the and-and actually it is very tough.

JY: 11:51
Yeah.

IG: 11:52
Because it is-

JY: 11:52
Yeah.

IG: 11:53
-it is a different language.

JY: 11:54
Yeah-yeah.

IG: 11:55
So-so, you-you know kind of decided on the humanities and history and French, so and you spent a lot of time studying in that subject, you know, after your freshman year.

JY: 12:09
Right.

IG: 12:10
How did you, you know, apart from all the studying, how did you, what did you do for entertainment?

JY: 12:20
Okay, I think I basically I lived in Newing the whole time. Okay, and I heard or saw pictures that Newing has been, like, finally redone totally. Okay, but you know, I lived in. In fact, the first semester, Endicott, if I am not mistaken, was all girls, all female. Okay, and then it finally went coed. All right, most of the time I just got together with either roommates or women or gals in my dorm, and/or within new [inaudible], we would like to go to like a local shopping center, like Vestal Plaza, or sometimes we would go to this bar called the Other Place, and just sort of like sit around and schmooze. I was not a drinker, okay, but we would just like have fun doing that. I always lived on campus. I did not have a car, okay, so I was dependent upon either the shuttle or the bus that took me places, okay. I actually was connected with a family in Binghamton, so that I could go to Jewish holiday services. Okay, and for years we stayed in touch even after I graduated.

IG: 13:33
That is very nice.

JY: 13:34
Okay, that was a really nice feeling.

IG: 13:36
Yeah.

JY: 13:36
I would, and actually, the first time I came home from school back home was only that first Thanksgiving, so I wanted to be with, you know, people so I can go to temple that first, you know, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. I am not that religious, but I like the being together and feeling, you know, a sense of unity that whole spiritual thing.

IG: 13:59
Yeah.

JY: 14:00
So mostly just hanging around with my friends, okay.

IG: 14:03
Right.

JY: 14:04
Interestingly enough, in junior year, Lynn had already moved off campus, okay, and we stayed in touch, okay. But junior year, I think I ended up getting a roommate who, excuse my French, uh oh, was a pothead, and I did not realize it when we got placed together, and it was not a pleasant experience. And I actually requested a single. I said I got to get out of here, so I was granted a single, and I had a single. And then senior year, I was placed with another gal who I ended up becoming and being friends with, and we still stay in touch.

IG: 14:43
I see.

JY: 14:43
So mostly just hanging around with friends and doing stuff. I was not athletic, so I was not on any of the teams. Okay, I am trying to think. What else did I do? In senior year, I was given the job of dorm assistant, so for the two semesters of my senior year, I worked as a dorm assistant. So, I was not an RA, but I helped in the office.

IG: 15:09
I see.

JY: 15:10
Okay, and that helped pay like bills and things like that. So that was a lot of fun.

IG: 15:14
Did you get a Regents scholarship?

JY: 15:16
Yeah, I got a Regents scholarship, so I was good with that. Okay, I did have to take out some loans, okay, and those were paid off like in due time.

IG: 15:26
Right.

JY: 15:27
Yeah.

IG: 15:27
Right.

JY: 15:29
Yeah.

IG: 15:29
The climate around you was kind of, you know, I mean, students were-

JY: 15:42
Protesting.

IG: 15:42
-protesting, probably doing drugs.

JY: 15:46
Yes.

IG: 15:48
You know, protesting, doing drugs. I mean, they were caught up in this wave of-of revolt.

JY: 15:57
Yeah.

IG: 15:57
-of, you know, major-major rethinking of society.

JY: 16:01
Yeah.

IG: 16:01
-What place did you have in this in this culture?

JY: 16:06
So interesting. I think I only smoked pot once, and it totally repulsed me. But I knew people who did, and if they were, you know, reasonably together, so to speak, mentally and emotionally, that is fine. I do remember that I actually went with a friend to a protest in Albany. The friend was like a year ahead of me, and she and I still stay in touch. Not a lot. She lives on Eastern Long Island. She had a car at the time because she was living off campus, and we drove out to Albany. Okay, and I remember marching.

IG: 16:47
What was a march against you?

JY: 16:49
It was against the war.

IG: 16:50
Against the war.

JY: 16:52
The interesting thing is, and this shows how I have, I guess, developed or matured for some strange reason, at least from my perspective, every time I would be in a car or a bus, you know, around that time during college years, and if I would see soldiers in their trucks, I actually thought that I hated them because I was sort of blaming them: why in God's name are you part of this horrible war? Until I finally realized later on, why was I blaming them? It was the government that was involved that was instrumental in-in getting involved in this war. The soldiers were probably, if anything, drafted. They did not have really a choice. So, I think from freshman year until senior year, I finally matured enough to the point where if I saw soldiers like in a transport van or something, I would actually like give them the peace sign as opposed to thumbs down. Okay.

IG: 17:55
Where-where did you see soldiers in vans?

JY: 17:59
Yeah, because I think, if I am not mistaken, Fort Drum was up towards or north of Binghamton.

IG: 18:06
Really, really?

JY: 18:07
Yeah. So, when I would sometimes take the bus back home to Long Island, or if I was in a car with a friend and I saw these transport vans with soldiers dressed in uniform, so that was the period of time. It was not a lot, but it happened. I might have gone on some protests on campus. I do not remember them specifically. I was not heavily involved. I have a vague recollection of-of being concerned about the war, but I think I was so involved in making sure that I did well at school. I- it, it was not a major part of my life. You know, it was, it was sort of like in the background, and I sort of now that I look back, I sort of feel bad. Maybe I should have been more proactive. Yeah, but I definitely felt like I was against the war. I knew it was a horrible thing that was happening over there.

IG: 18:55
Right.

JY: 18:55
But I just probably would have liked to have done more, but I did not.

IG: 19:17
Yes. Yes.

JY: 19:18
You know.

IG: 19:18
Yes. Did you-you know, a lot of young men faced the draft,

JY: 19:23
Yeah.

IG: 19:23
And it was a scary thing, yeah. And did you sense, you know, this air of anxiety among your male peers?

JY: 19:37
Yeah-yeah. A lot of them- I do not remember names, of sorts, but and I did know some guys on campus. Okay, there was this fear. Oh my God, what happens if I get drafted?

IG: 19:48
Right.

JY: 19:48
Okay, and it-it ended up. Let us see. How do I say this? The young man whom I ended up getting engaged to, who ended up getting married to, but then got divorced from. Okay, he actually was drafted, but was, and I had not met him as yet. Okay, so he really should have graduated in (19)71.

IG: 20:17
Right.

JY: 20:18
Okay, but he ended up graduating in (19)72, because what happened was, he somehow, from what I remember, he was drafted, but he was able to get. He did not get a deferment, but he ended up being able to go into the National Guard. But having gone into the National Guard, and this is a recollection that I have from when we did know each other. He ended up developing pneumonia while in the National Guard, which ended up getting him out of National Guard service. Okay, ended up getting on the veterans' disability. Okay, but he lost either half a year or a year at Harpur because of this illness and because of the National Guard, so he ended up graduating in (19)72, the same time I graduated, and we actually met in (19)71 through a friend of mine who knew him. Okay, so he, you know, he just did not want to go out there to Vietnam. He just- I do not know how he ended up getting allowed to get into the National Guard. I do not remember the details, but it was it was scary for him, and it was scary for a lot of other guys I knew. Like, “What do I do? How do I get out of this? You know, can I have like, a bone spur?" Okay, all right. Or "Can there something be wrong with me?" You know, but yeah, it and-and the thing is, women were not affected by this at all. We did not have to be concerned about that. Okay, but guys did. It was-

IG: 21:55
Well, you were affected by-by virtue of-of being with these- other people.

JY: 21:59
[crosstalk] Other people, right.

IG: 22:00
Knowing other people and having relationships with them.

JY: 22:03
Right.

IG: 22:06
It was also the-the beginning of the women's movement.

JY: 22:13
That is right.

IG: 22:14
So how did it how did it manifest itself in your experience then?

JY: 22:23
I do not. I always believed in the rights of women. I always felt strongly that a woman had the right to make choices of her own. I do not really think that the initial part of the women's movement back in the early (19)70s, it did not, it did not have that much of an impact on me. I do not know if it is because I was naive. I do not know if it is because maybe I was not as mature as I could have or should have been; it took hold. I think in my mental in my mental state, but I do not think that it had that much of an of an obvious impact initially.

IG: 23:16
Right.

JY: 23:17
Sort of was like a process.

IG: 23:17
Well, maybe-maybe it-it-it was; its impact was not felt until a much later time.

JY: 23:25
Yeah, yeah.

IG: 23:26
So-so, it probably, you know, was just beginning to dawn.

JY: 23:29
Yeah-yeah. But it-it was not in the forefront of my mind. But I definitely think it was in the back of my mind. But it just did not it did not take hold, okay, until later because that is the best way I could explain it.

IG: 23:46
And when it did take hold, how did that change your mindset, if at all?

JY: 23:53
I think I think I this is this is hard. I began to realize why are women paid less money. Okay, why is it okay for a guy to smack a woman on her butt? Okay, in fact, I had a job a few years after graduating college where I had a boss. He was a guy. Okay, very chauvinistic. I just like, ugh, just like the thought of him, and I remember at the time, women used to wear really, really short skirts. Okay, and it was okay to wear short skirts at the time. Okay, and I remember every once in a while, he would say, "Hey, Joy,” and he would come by and do a quick little pat. I would either jump, but I would never say anything. Okay, like how could you speak back to your boss? Okay, I knew that it was wrong.

IG: 24:49
Right.

JY: 24:50
I knew that it was wrong for him to do that, but I did not have the chutzpah. Did not have the guts to say, "Do not you do that." Okay. Now, if something like that would happen, or even-

IG: 25:01
Of course, it is a different age.

JY: 25:02
-or even 10 to 20 years ago. If a guy would ever dare do something like that-

IG: 25:08
Yeah.

JY: 25:09
I think I have, I have developed enough assertiveness, definitely for the last, like, at least the last 20 to 30 years, where I would say, "Do not you dare do that!" Like, not only jump and pull back, but say something.

IG: 25:23
Yeah, it is, it is interesting how it is a combination of both, of-of-of sort of, you know the-the-the regulations, the rules. Because I remember, in-in the academe, people only began to-to become aware of sexual harassment. I think from the mid to late (19)80s. So, you know, and professors held back the way they, you know spoke to their young people. So-so, how they relate?

JY: 26:05
Yeah.

IG: 26:05
So, where were you working?

JY: 26:08
I was actually working at the time. So, this must have been all right. So, I was married, living in Cleveland, working for the U.S. Railroad Retirement Board. So, it was a federal government agency. I had previously been working for Social Security, but then when we got married, we ended up moving from-from Cleveland back to Rochester. Okay, but I am getting things confused. When we first got married, we were living in Jersey, okay, and then my husband's job at the time got moved to Cleveland.

IG: 26:45
And what did he do?

JY: 26:46
He is- was okay, an estate tax attorney with the IRS. So, he is retired now. He still does some work, and we still stay in touch. Okay, but you know, so the job that I had in New Jersey was with Social Security, and I loved it. But then, when he ended up getting a job in Cleveland with the IRS, we had to move, and there were no openings at Social Security. But there was at the U.S. Retirement Board. It was a similar type of job. I got hired right away. But that boss, and even his assistant boss, they were both sort of on the verge of being lewd. Okay, but this was the late, mid to late (19)70s, and things had not [crosstalk] as happened. It was still permissible, and it was just so-so uncomfortable. I remember it being uncomfortable.

IG: 27:40
Would you mention it to your husband or to anyone, or did you just accept it?

JY: 27:45
Yeah, I did. And how do I say this? That is probably why we are divorced. It did not really bother him, so just, you know, suck it up, you know. And it just- I knew that, I knew that my husband's response was not what I liked or wanted, but you know, it really was not worth having an argument about it because obviously he grew up in a male chauvinist society, and it, and it still is. It is still like, do not get me started. It still is. I really think it is okay, and I think I want to say something, but you might want to edit this out. I do not know.

IG: 28:30
I do not edit it.

JY: 28:31
Who does that? Do not say anything. Okay, all right. You do not want. All right. Okay. All right.

IG: 28:36
No,

JY: 28:38
But I know and remember that it was an uncomfortable feeling, and like I said, now I would not put up with that crap,

IG: 28:45
Right.

JY: 28:46
And I would tell definitely a friend, of course,

IG: 28:50
Yeah.

JY: 28:50
But yeah.

IG: 28:51
Yeah, I-I hear you. So-so, you-you got married.

JY: 28:52
Right.

IG: 28:59
After college. Did you have any sense?

JY: 29:04
Hold on, not right after college.

IG: 29:05
Not right after.

JY: 29:07
My husband needed to go to law school first, so we.

IG: 29:11
Oh, he is an accountant and lawyer.

JY: 29:13
No, no,

IG: 29:14
He is not.

JY: 29:14
No, just a lawyer. He went to law school, though.

IG: 29:17
I see.

JY: 29:17
So, after graduation, he spent three years at Brooklyn College. Okay, went to law school. We became engaged over that period, and then we got married shortly after he graduated from law school. Okay, and a job that I had prior to Social Security. Okay, I actually did teach for a short amount of time.

IG: 29:37
Where did you teach?

JY: 29:39
Okay, so I was living in New York City at the time when I graduated college. I moved into the city, had a really nice apartment in Stuyvesant Town, and my brother at the time was teaching at a school that still exists, but under a different name. It was called Haaren High School on the west side in the mid (19)50s. And it was a vocational boys' school, and through my brother, I ended up getting a job to fill in for a gal who was on maternity leave, and I taught 10th-grade world history to all boys. Okay, who most of them were delinquents, without a doubt. Okay, I fine-tuned my teaching skills as well as my psychosocial skills as well. Some of them actually brought alcohol in a bottle in a brown bag and would bring it into class. Okay, and they were roughnecks. I do not know how I survived that job, because I think maybe 10 minutes out of a 45-minute period was spent on world history, and the other 35 minutes was spent in disciplining them. And here I was, 22, 23, telling 15-year-old boys. Cut it out, but I loved it. I absolutely loved it. I almost ended up getting a master's in teaching through Binghamton. I applied for the for the program. Okay, I am losing my voice. I applied for the program.

IG: 31:15
Do you want to drink something?

JY: 31:23
Yeah.

IG: 31:26
Should I? We are back with Joy Yagman.

JY: 31:33
Okay, so-so like I said, so I applied and got accepted at the Master's in Teaching program.

IG: 31:40
I was just wondering, what did you like so much about teaching boys at this vocational school?

JY: 31:46
I do not know if it was the boys that I really liked teaching. I just felt like I was able to impart my knowledge upon them, and keep in mind I was a history major. Okay, although I did mostly major in American history. Okay, but there was just something about it, and I do not think it had to do with having power or authority or control, but I just liked being able to interact with them, even though in most cases it was discipline, you know, my area. I liked being able to share my knowledge with them and the back and forth, the interaction. I felt good being amongst other teachers and having that camaraderie. It felt like a profession to me. Okay, so that is why.

IG: 32:35
That is why I can understand that.

JY: 32:37
Yeah.

IG: 32:38
So-so.

JY: 32:39
Oh, so all right. So, the mast- okay. Yeah. [crosstalk]

IG: 32:42
[inaudible] teaching must have been. You must have had a sense of loss.

JY: 32:47
Yeah. I felt, I felt bad, and there was no other opening at the school at the time. Okay. In fact, it was actually under what was back then called an emergency.

IG: 32:58
Where are you now? Where are you in this part of your life that you are talking about? Where are you?

JY: 33:04
Like, where am I living? Yeah, in Stuyvesant Town in Manhattan. Okay, still in New York. Okay, yeah. So, I ended up needing to get what was called an emergency teaching license. Okay, to do that job. Okay, and I knew that the job was going to be happening, okay, as of January.

IG: 33:23
Right.

JY: 33:24
But if I remember correctly, my brother had told me about it like in September. The- so I had to take four courses at SUNY Stony Brook, like cram them in because they needed 12 credits of education courses, and keep in mind, Binghamton slash Harpur was not offering education classes at all back then. Okay, so I had to take four courses at Stony Brook, get the 12 credits in, and then get the job. Okay, so that was really like, hurry up and just do this, like just get it done, and I did it. It is like, you know, I was really under the gun, so to speak, but I did it. So-so, that job started, okay. But in the meantime, I had already gotten accepted to the Binghamton Graduate Program, and I-

IG: 34:14
In?

JY: 34:15
-in-in teaching. It was like an MAT.

IG: 34:17
I see.

JY: 34:18
And the interesting thing is, is that my father at the time? Even though he only, I do not think my father even graduated high school. My father at the time was strongly encouraging me: go to Binghamton, take that program. You will get certified. You will have a job for life. Okay, but sort of things happened to the point where I ended up getting engaged, and to someone that I knew was going to be moving away, and I ended up declining. So, I think what I am saying. If I look back, I wish I would have done that program, but I did not. Life turned out okay. All right, who knows if I would have wanted or liked to teach after I would have gotten the degree?

IG: 35:14
Yeah.

JY: 35:15
But I did not. So, I try not to look back, but I am just saying that as a part of this. Okay.

IG: 35:22
It is always interesting to imagine alternative-

JY: 35:25
Right.

IG: 35:26
-alternative careers.

JY: 35:27
Right-Right.

IG: 35:30
So. Oh, you-you are now with your husband; where and just give us an overview of your career trajectory.

JY: 35:40
Okay, so after we got married, okay, I worked. I continued working at the U.S. Railroad Retirement Board with the boss who was lecherous. Okay, I ended up getting pregnant. Okay, wanting to, okay, at the time I think there was no such thing as maternity leave. I am almost sure there was no such thing as maternity leave. So, I-

IG: 36:13
This is what year?

JY: 36:13
This is (19)79. Okay.

IG: 36:16
There was no.

JY: 36:17
There was no- yeah, no, there was no such thing. All right. Oh wait, we have to sort of. Okay, hold on. So, we were living in Cleveland. I am working. Let me back up. I am living. We were living in Cleveland as of 1975. Okay. All right. I am working at the U.S. Rail Retirement Board. I decided. Hey, Joy, you have got to get a graduate degree somewhere, somehow, to do something. Like, what do you want to do? I ended up going part time to Cleveland State University, and I got a master's in education. I ended up specializing in geriatric counseling, and the research [crosstalk]

IG: 36:59
It was very new then.

JY: 37:00
Very new, yeah, very new. [crosstalk] And the main reason that I did that, my parents were both aging, and I saw that they were declining, and one of them was beginning to sort of develop some cognitive impairment. I think knowing that was the inspiration for what specialization I chose. Okay, so while I was working full time at the U.S. Railroad Retirement Board, I was going evenings to Cleveland State-

IG: 37:24
And taking care of your child.

JY: 37:28
No, I was not pregnant yet.

IG: 37:30
Oh, I see.

JY: 37:30
Okay, all right, sorry about that. And so, I went to Cleveland State part-time for two and a half years. Okay, got my degree in early 1979, and I was pregnant at the time, towards the end of getting that degree. Okay, ended up needing to stop work at the U.S. Retirement Board because of maternity situations, and after that, I chose not to work. I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. My husband at the time was making a very decent living. Okay, working for the federal government was a stable, decent job. So, it was okay with him. It was okay with me. So, I stayed at home, literally, not literally, because stay-at-home mom is sort of like an acronym. You do not really stay at home. You are always out and about. Okay, so that was in (19)79. Karen was born in June of (19)79. Okay, I already had my graduate degree under my belt. Okay, I knew that once she started kindergarten, that then I would start, you know, getting out in the work world. But in 1982, we had a second child. Her name is Debbie. Okay, so I continued being a stay-at-home mom, and then in the mid in the mid (19)80s, I started sort of working a little bit outside of the home, and what I ended up doing was, while the kids were in nursery school, I was a part-time substitute nursery school teacher. I did not have a degree in early childhood, but the director of the nursery school felt that I was qualified. At this time, we were now living in Rochester, okay, because my husband got a full-time transfer from Cleveland to Rochester. We always wanted to get back to New York. Anyhow, he was a member of the bar in Rochester, in New York. Okay, so that was what I did for quite a while, and then when the kids started regular school, then I sort of switched on and off from working as a substitute nursery school teacher. I was actually one of the most called, most preferred teachers that they had on their sub list. So, and I loved that. I loved nursery school teaching. [crosstalk] Yeah, I-I just loved it. It was like. Fun, and the fact that I was a substitute. Okay, I could basically choose when I wanted to work, if I wanted to work that day. How my schedule was going.

IG: 40:11
How long did you live in Rochester?

JY: 40:16
Okay, so, oh gosh, all right. So, we moved to Rochester in 1980, okay, and I lived there until 2005. Got divorced in 1995. Stayed in Rochester after my divorce for about 10 years, but then an opportunity came for me to move to New York City, which is where I am living now.

IG: 40:42
And what was the opportunity?

JY: 40:44
Okay, so several relatives of mine.

IG: 40:47
This is 2005.

JY: 40:49
Yeah 2005. And-

IG: 40:51
You know, your daughters are still. Are they going to college?

JY: 40:54
Oh gosh, no. They are. Oh whoa, they are past.

IG: 40:57
They are past.

JY: 40:58
Oh wait, you mean in 2005?

IG: 41:00
In 2005.

JY: 41:01
Okay, in 2005, Karen, who lives in Rochester still, she is like, Karen was born in (19)79. How good is your math?

IG: 41:12
So, she probably graduated in 2002, 2001.

JY: 41:16
She graduated college in 2001. She went to the University of Hartford. Okay.

IG: 41:21
Yeah.

JY: 41:22
Debbie graduated from college in 2004, 22, (19)82. Yeah, Debbie graduated college in 2004. Went to the University of Toronto, okay. So, Karen still lives in Rochester. She is basically an artist. That is her profession. Okay. Debbie is married, lives in Calgary, with the guy she met in college in Toronto, and she is actually a junior high teacher, science and math. And I do not know where she got the science and math, but it did not come from either of us. Okay. So, the opportunity arose in 2005. Like I was trying to say, numerous relatives of mine lived in this complex called Southbridge since Southbridge became a complex in the early (19)70s, and Southbridge at the time in 2005 was what was called Mitchell Lama.

IG: 42:22
Oh, I know where that is. Yes.

JY: 42:23
Well, Mitchell Lama is like a state law that allows middle-income.

IG: 42:29
Exactly.

JY: 42:30
Yeah.

IG: 42:30
Exactly.

JY: 42:30
Okay. So, all of these relatives of mine who were living here all were beginning to decline cognitively, all at the same time, no joke. My mother, yeah-

IG: 42:43
It is called Mitchell Lama something residence, isn't it? Or it is-

JY: 42:48
Each apart-

IG: 42:49
Informally.

JY: 42:50
Yeah, informally. Okay. All right. But from what I remember, Mitchell-Lama was a law that was passed in New York State. Okay, that allowed or that provided middle-income subsidized housing to New Yorkers. Okay, so Southbridge at the time was a Mitchell-Lama complex. Okay, and so all these relatives were all basically declining. There was nobody to take care of them. I was working in Rochester at the time, had always wanted to move back to New York City, and one of my aunts basically said, "Why do not you come and live with me?" Okay, and when I should not say why do not "Could you come and live with me? Okay, I need a little bit of care. Okay, but when I die, the apartment will be yours, okay." And I thought, gee, do I really want to take care of my aunt, who is like in her late 80s? And I thought, Joy, if you always wanted to move back to New York City, can you do this for a little while? And I decided, okay, I had a really good job in Rochester. I was a case manager at an agency dealing with seniors, and that was my piece that I finally was using in gerontology. Okay.

IG: 43:59
How did you get that job?

JY: 44:12
Basically, through connections. Okay, I had been volunteering on a Medicare project, and one of the women in that Medicare project knew about this job. Okay, and she said, “You would be perfect for it.” Okay, and so I had this job at the Catholic Family Center in Rochester. Loved it, like loved it. Did home visits to the elderly, set up, you know, plans for them, set up home care, set up Meals on Wheels, but this opportunity was waiting for me in New York, and my daughter was still living in Rochester, and I did not want to leave. But gosh, you got to go, Joy. So, I resigned from the job. Okay. Packed up and moved here. Auntie ended up living once I moved here, exactly two years and one month past that. And the Mitchell Lama law at the time was you have to have resided with someone who is your relative for at least two years, so I just got by with being allowed to live here. Okay, most of the time she was living with one of her other family members. Okay, in one of the other apartments, so I basically had this apartment to myself. Okay, I had to apply for what is called succession, which is a whole process that you go through, providing proofs and documents and the whole thing.

IG: 45:47
I can imagine.

JY: 45:48
Yeah, and-

IG: 45:49
This is such coveted [crosstalk]

JY: 45:51
Yeah. Oh gosh! Wow.

IG: 45:52
Wow.

JY: 45:52
So now the interesting thing is Southbridge has gone private since 2015, and now this apartment is worth quite a lot, but you only get it if you sell it. But I do not want to sell it because I want to live here. So, but I am basically sitting on a pot of gold, which is in a way good for my children. So, but I am really happy here. I-I just love it here.

IG: 46:24
It is a great yeah neighborhood.

JY: 46:26
Yeah, it really is, and it has, it has come back since Hurricane Sandy, which was in 2012. It has come back since 9/11, which was a disaster. Okay, to say the least. You know, I was still living in Rochester at the time, okay, but I actually came down to visit these relatives right after the disaster, and it was like-

IG: 46:52
I was here. Yeah.

JY: 46:53
It looked like a war zone.

IG: 46:55
It did. It did.

JY: 46:56
Yeah, it did. Yeah. So, but I love this place. The neighborhood is like, oh my God! I love walking along the water. You know, there is a pier just that way. Okay, Statue of Liberty, like the Brooklyn Bridge. I have not, I have not walked over the Manhattan Bridge yet. Okay, but I have not. Not the Manhattan because the Brooklyn Bridge, no. Because no, the Brooklyn Bridge is what is next to me.

IG: 47:26
Manhattan Bridge is also next to you.

JY: 47:28
Yes, I know, I know, I know. But I have to walk much farther to get to the bridge. Whereas to get to the Brooklyn Bridge, I just like hop, skip, and jump for five minutes, and I am there.

IG: 47:38
You are seeing the same scenery.

JY: 47:40
Correct.

IG: 47:40
It is the same.

JY: 47:41
Correct. Correct.

IG: 47:43
That is the argument for staying on the Brooklyn Bridge.

JY: 47:47
Actually, the fireworks were there last night, and I actually saw the fireworks from my terrace.

IG: 47:52
You have such a glorious view from where you are.

JY: 47:56
Yeah, I do. So, I am, I am grateful and thankful.

IG: 48:00
Yeah, I- we are coming to our conclusion of this, of this interview, and what I usually ask toward the end is, you know, what lessons did you learn from your college years?

JY: 48:23
Okay, for some reason, the word resilience is just something that just always sticks with me. There is something about the. I know this may sound a little bit hokey, but there is something about the environment that was at Harpur. Okay, there is something about the way that-that I was taught, the way that I was shown, it is okay to ask questions. It is okay if you do not do well during a semester; you can bounce back, and I just I learned how to be a person. I do not think I was really mature when I started college. I do not think anybody is. All right, but I-I grew for those four years, and that background, that that culture of-of knowing that no matter what you did, you could always either fix it or correct it or do better. That has stayed with me all these years.

IG: 49:38
Well, that is, yeah, especially since your freshman year, you corrected that course-

JY: 49:45
Right-right.

IG: 49:46
-to becoming a very strong student.

JY: 49:47
Yeah-yeah, and-and I know that I talked in this interview about like things that I wish that I would have done or that I should have done, but overall, I do not have any regrets. I mean, things. Some things have happened that I wish they did not happen, but overall, like when I look at my life now, I consider myself reasonably happy. You know, everybody has challenges, okay, but to be able to bounce back and to learn and grow from things that you have done, and then to still be able to move forward, so I think that is what I learned.

IG: 50:25
And do you think that this is a very valuable, you know, it is not a skill; it is an aptitude.

JY: 50:34
Yeah.

IG: 50:35
For succeeding in this life.

JY: 50:38
Yeah, yeah. Because I think, I think the ability to be flexible, okay, is really super important. Okay, the-the skill. I do not know if resilience is a skill or if it is a tool, or if it is something that you learn as you grow in life, or those are and those are things that I always tell my children. Okay, even if you do not do well in one thing, as long as you try to stay positive, as long as you know that you know there is light at the end of the tunnel, that is something that can stick with you for your whole life. Yeah.

IG: 51:23
I think that that is a it is probably a key life lesson.

JY: 51:28
Yeah, yeah.

IG: 51:29
A key life skill or-

JY: 51:31
Yeah.

IG: 51:31
-capacity.

JY: 51:32
And one more thing. All right, and whether you want to include this or not, because we, because we did not talk about this, and I do not want to make this too long. Three or four years ago, I was at a job that I really did not like.

IG: 51:45
Tell us about your job.

JY: 51:46
Yes, that is okay. That is what I was going to say. Okay, so I was at a job that I really did not like. Okay, it was a job that where I was working with mental health clients. Okay, and some of them were not old. It was like a mixed population. I-I-I liked what I was doing, but the administration, the agency that-that helped these people, were not really fulfilling their goals, their mission. So, I actually resigned from that job. Okay, I said, "This is just not for me." Okay, then I found another job. I have had numerous jobs in my life. I found another job actually, with the state of New York. Okay, at the Department of Labor, and I loved what I was doing. But once again, the administration just was not effective, okay. But in the meantime, I had learned about this program at Pace University, okay, that offered lectures by Pace University professors, okay, and I started going to that-that group, okay, where those lectures were held, and I became friendly with the guy who was the coordinator of the program, and within about a year or so, he had told me that he was going to retire. Okay, and he said, "You know, you would be perfect for this job." Meanwhile, I had this job at the Department of Labor, and here we go again. Like Joy, you had this job in Rochester, but here is this apartment. Like opportunities come, and you have to grab them when they happen. So, he said, "You know, if you apply for this job, I bet you-you will get it." Okay, "But I have a job already." I said to him, "I am working at the Department of Labor." "Well, you know, I understand. Da-da-da-da." Well, once again, I took a risk. Okay, I resigned from the job at the Department of Labor. Okay, that I had been with for a couple of years, and that guy retired. I found out about the job opening, applied for the job. There were 50 people who applied for the job. I went to a couple of interviews. I went to one interview. They already knew me because I had been helping him in the past, and I got the job. And it is the best job I have ever had.

IG: 54:11
That is wonderful. What makes it the best job?

JY: 54:15
The administration at Pace, at least the people that I deal with, are so supportive. My supervisor basically gives me free rein. Okay, I am the program director of this program that offers lectures. So okay, so it is called. I will first say the name and then the acronym. So, it is called Pace University's Active Retirement Center, otherwise known as PARC. P-A-R-C. All right, it is basically a lecture series by Pace University professors, as well as some intergenerational computing assistants that I coordinate. I match members of this group with students who take technology courses at Pace. Okay, I also. So, I am sort of like an information slash referral resource person. So anytime I learn of information in the community, I pass it on to my members. I-I feel like I am supported. I feel like I know what I am doing, and the population of this group is 55 and older, so I am working on behalf of people who are quote, unquote, seniors. So, I am fulfilling my degree that I got in gerontology. Okay, it is a combination of doing outreach. It is a combination of talking with people. It is a combination of using all those people skills that I have honed in over the last many years, and it is right next door to where I live.

IG: 55:48
It has all the ingredients of a perfect job. What do you have to do to join? What do people have to do?

JY: 55:56
Okay, so there is a membership fee. So, for a full 12 months, the membership fee is $100. The- there is a website for the program. The website is www.pace.edu/parc arc. The registration information is online. There is also a brochure, you know. You can call me if you want. Phone number.

IG: 56:27
Yes. Okay. All right.

JY: 56:29
And I also have an email address. So, my phone number at work is 212-346-1244. My email is the letter J, then Yagman Y a g m a n at pace.edu. This is a part-time job. I work Tuesdays and Thursdays, sometimes one other day. It is, it is like the dream job that I have always wished for. Yeah.

IG: 56:56
That is wonderful to hear. So, any concluding remarks?

JY: 57:03
When I look back, I think Harpur was the best choice I ever made as far as schooling, as far as education. I-I do not think at the time I realized how good a background and foundation it gave me, but it obviously gave me an excellent foundation because I do not think I would be where I am now if I did not have that.

IG: 57:30
Thank you very much for a wonderful interview.

JY: 57:33
Thank you.

(End of Interview)

2019-07-05

Irene Gashurov

1972

Joy Yagman

Joy Yagman was born in Brooklyn and raised in Mount Sinai, Long Island. She graduated from Harpur College in 1972 with a degree in history and later earned a master’s degree in education in geriatric counseling from Cleveland State University. Her career has included positions as a labor services representative with the New York State Department of Labor, a case manager with the Neighborhood Coalition for Shelter in New York City, and a counselor with the Health Insurance Information, Counseling and Assistance Program (HIICAP). She currently works at Pace University’s Active Retirement Center (PARC) and lives in New York City.

Audio

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