Interview with Jerome "Jerry" Raik and Dr. Barrie Raik

Interview with Jerome "Jerry" Raik and Dr. Barrie Raik

Raik, Barrie ; Gashurov, Irene

2019-07-05

In Copyright

Jerry-_-Dr.-Barrie-Raik.mp3

2019-07-05

Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni

86:37 minutes

f98efeef-1c10-45dd-8d86-ee91a87b8d61

Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Barrie and Jerry Raik
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 5 July 2019
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(Start of Interview)

IG: 00:01
So, [inaudible]

BR: 00:03
Okay, my name is Barrie Goldman Rake. I am Jerry's wife, and I graduated from Harpur College, or Binghamton, whatever you want to call it, in 1967, and I am home, and the Upper West Side at 600 West 111th Street. And today is July 5, 2019.

IG: 00:33
Very good. Jerry gave me a little bit of background on his childhood and where he grew up. Could you give us also a snapshot of where you came from, whether your parents encouraged your education, what decided you on Harpur College?

BR: 00:51
So, I grew up in Brooklyn, in a neighborhood area of East New York called Highland Park. And my education was, I went to public schools and I had, I was accelerated in elementary school. So, I went from the middle of fourth grade to the middle of Fifth grade in a special advanced reader program. And then when I went to what we call then junior high school, there was a program in New York City called Special Progress-

IG: 01:41
Right.

BR: 01:42
-and so, I skipped eighth grade there, too. I would say my parents were interested in my education, but did not have much perception of what it would do to have a kid start high school at the age of 12, which I did. So, I graduated from high school at 15 and a half, and then I started Harpur at 15 and a half, turning 16.

IG: 02:11
That is remarkable.

IG: 02:12
Well, yeah [crosstalk]

JR: 02:17
Half the class was 16.

BR: 02:19
Yeah, there were many

JR: 02:20
[inaudible] 50.

BR: 02:20
Right. So, I was, I was two years younger than the standard kid who graduated from high school at 17 and a half or 18, but I was one year younger than all those other kids who did SP.

JR: 02:39
Most of the kids at Harpur who-who came from the city, went through that SP program, including myself.

IG: 02:46
I see.

JR: 02:46
So, um-

BR: 02:48
So, we were in the same class. He was a year older than me, but some of my friends were two years older than me.

IG: 02:55
In the same class?

BR: 02:56
In the same class.

IG: 02:57
The same class were in the same class.

BR: 03:00
Yeah, because it started in the same year.

IG: 03:02
They started [crosstalk] no, at the, at Harpur College or at Bronx?

BR: 03:09
No at Harpur College.

JR: 03:10
She went to a different [inaudible] high school-

IG: 03:12
Okay, all right, okay.

BR: 03:16
Yeah, I went to a local high school was not specialized in any way.

IG: 03:23
I see, I see.

BR: 03:27
And a couple of my friends from high school came to also went to Harpur. And why I chose Harpur, I only applied to three colleges. One of them was Brooklyn College. One of them was Brandeis. And I did not get into Brandeis, so I went to Harpur. And it was, you know, almost free for us, because we got these Regents' scholarships.

IG: 03:57
Regents’ scholarship, yeah.

BR: 03:58
So, I do not think I could have gone to Brandeis, even if I had gotten in, because it would have been too expensive.

IG: 04:05
It is too expensive.

BR: 04:08
Although my brother went to MIT a few years after me.

IG: 04:13
Why do you think that? Why do- did your parents' fortunes change? Or did they [crosstalk]

BR: 04:18
No, I do not, actually, I have no idea now, even if my brother got a scholarship or they were able to afford it, I mean, I did not get in. I mean, this was an era in which you did not apply to 15 colleges. [crosstalk]

JR: 04:18
Also-also-

BR: 04:18
I do not remember being like [inaudible] I could not-

JR: 04:20
MIT and Brandeis, I mean, the top-tier schools cost the tuition was $3,000.

IG: 04:48
Yeah, it is not a huge difference, but it was a lot of money.

BR: 04:52
Right-right.

JR: 04:53
That was a lot of money. But it also was not a lot of money.

IG: 04:56
It was not, it was not, you know, proportionately to what it is now.

BR: 05:00
Right-right.

JR: 05:02
I mean, there was, you know, nobody was looking at the kind of debt.

IG: 05:08
No-no-no.

BR: 05:10
I do not realize [crosstalk]

IG: 05:11
Brandeis see, I understood.

BR: 05:12
I mean, my friend from high school did, was accepted to Brandeis, and she went to Harpur too.

IG: 05:22
Okay.

BR: 05:23
So, I think we will, you know, our families were, you know, middle class in those in that era, but [crosstalk]

JR: 05:36
And they certainly thought of it as a lot of money.

IG: 05:40
Yeah.

JR: 05:40
I just looking back, it was not really that much money so that, so that they could consider it, you know, they and they could say, oh, no, it is too much money. Or-or it is a huge amount of money, but we can do it.

IG: 05:58
Well, you mentioned that you are first-generation and your family probably came from a place where education was free, right? Uh, you know-

JR: 06:09
No, they were where they came from; there was no education.

IG: 06:11
Or no education, either free or no education.

BR: 06:15
Right. I mean, I, yeah. I mean, my father was born in Poland. My mother was born here in New York City, but she-she had a high school diploma that was all. Never [inaudible]

JR: 06:36
But I mean our immigrant parents, you know, they came out of the Jewish immigrant, the Jewish Eastern European immigrant experience, and so what-what education there was? Was Jewish education.

IG: 06:59
Yeah.

BR: 07:00
Right. My father's specialty [inaudible], but, um, but education was important.

IG: 07:05
Was important, yeah.

BR: 07:06
[crosstalk] family, definitely. I mean, it was expected that-that we were going to go to college. That was not a question.

JR: 07:16
And, you know, so there was this question of the, you know, for me, Queens College, for you, Brooklyn College, the City University, was very, was a wonderful thing. Was very well thought of, and it, and they were, you know, they were, we were of the time when people could get a really good college education for free [crosstalk] in New York.

BR: 07:50
I think Jerry and I both wanted to go away to college. Wanted to have that away experience. And I do not know, I do not know; my parents did not really fight it. They just, they kind of let me do whatever I want. In retrospect, I do not think I felt that way at the time, but we got married when we were very young, we went off to the Peace Corps when we were very young. I went to Europe-

JR: 08:22
She was 19, and I was 20 when we got married, which was a week before we graduated.

BR: 08:28
And I-

IG: 08:29
That is quite lovely. And you stayed together, and you stayed all these years; that is wonderful.

JR: 08:36
Even though I like the room cooler than Barrie.

BR: 08:43
No, I was going to say, yeah. I mean, I think about my parents and how flexible they were. I mean, I do not know if I voted for them or they just I was able to persuade them that my logic was accurate, you know, but I mean, so they let me go away to college when I was 15. They let me go to Europe the summer before my senior year, so I was 18, I guess, yeah, and for three months,

IG: 09:24
Where did you go? And was this through Harpur College? Did they [crosstalk] Semester abroad? [crosstalk] Dow wonderful. Where did you go?

BR: 09:34
No, a lot of different countries kept on moving to the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, Switzerland, Ireland.

IG: 09:52
What a marvelous experience.

BR: 09:54
Yeah, it was great.

IG: 09:55
It is a different-different era, a different world.

JR: 10:02
I had no such experience.

BR: 10:07
I still have to get him to Italy. He still has not been there. I mean, I have not been in like, you know, whatever. But we are going to Cambodia in November, so I am very [inaudible]

IG: 10:19
In November?

BR: 10:20
[inaudible] And he was not so excited [inaudible]

JR: 10:26
No, I mean, when we graduated, we joined the Peace Corps. I mean, it was-was a way of, I know you want to hear, we will go back.

BR: 10:39
We will, we will.

IG: 10:40
It is okay.

JR: 10:41
You want to hear what life was like at Harpur, but-

IG: 10:44
But this is equally interesting, the Peace Corps experience. Where did you go [crosstalk] and why did you-

JR: 10:50
We got married so young, and Barrie asked me, when I asked her to marry me, she said, "Well, what are we going to do?" "Let us go to the Peace Corps." And I knew that would that would buy us two years’ worth of time, so that before we might not be, might not be infants when we got back to New York and had to make-make a living. But that was a real-

BR: 11:18
Format.

JR: 11:19
-a very-very centrally important experience for both of us.

IG: 11:21
So, where were you? [crosstalk]

BR: 11:26
In Korea, South Korea, the time-

JR: 11:30
In a small town.

BR: 11:32
Very poor country, it had, you know, the Korean War had been, you know, ended like 14 years earlier, or something 15 years earlier, it was very- where we lived, very rural and very primitive lifestyle, and I mean life. And we lived with this family, we developed a very strong relationship that we still have now.

JR: 12:04
Skype with them every week. And I mean, they became really family. We consider ourselves to be family. We call each other by family names. And I think, you know, there was a situation that contributed to the deepening of that relationship, which was that the middle child in that family needed to have heart surgery that was not available in Korea, so we brought her home for surgery, and she lived with us for a few months, and had the surgery, and we sent her back, and she grew up and had married and had children who would have died before she was 15.

BR: 12:58
Yeah, she would have died before she was like [inaudible]

IG: 13:01
So, this, this happened after the Peace Corps obviously experienced [crosstalk]

BR: 13:05
{inaudible] immediately [crosstalk]

JR: 13:07
like, as we left, as we came, left Korea to come back-

IG: 13:12
To the United States [crosstalk]I see, I see [crosstalk]

JR: 13:15
[crosstalk] for surgery.

BR: 13:17
So now she is [inaudible]

JR: 13:19
Now, she is 50-something, yeah.

BR: 13:24
[crosstalk] children-

JR: 13:25
You know, [inaudible] children call us grandpa [inaudible].

IG: 13:33
You saved her life.

BR: 13:36
Yeah.

JR: 13:37
The doctor saved her life.

IG: 13:38
The doctor saved her life. What-what-what did you do in the Peace Corps? What was your role?

BR: 13:46
We were English teachers.

IG: 13:48
I see, I see

BR: 13:49
English as a second language. And actually, there are a lot of interesting stories about that. But if you want to get [crosstalk]

IG: 13:55
We, can, we can, we can touch upon the Peace Corps experience, we can touch about but let us backtrack a little bit and just tell us, you know, an overview of your experience of Harpur, the academics, sort of the social environment, how you met?

JR: 14:16
So, we met on the first day of freshman orientation.

BR: 14:21
But we did not start going out.

JR: 14:24
I wanted to go out, but she would not go out until I was a star.

BR: 14:29
So, he was a theater major. He did a lot of acting and some directing.

IG: 14:36
How interesting.

BR: 14:38
So, and I was, you know, I-I worked in props on the theater department. No, I got good grades, but, you know, I so I-I started off thinking I was going to be a math major, but then I did not like the math. I mean, it was, it was not really what my love was. So, I switched to more liberal arts and ended up being an English major.

JR: 15:11
I started off as an English major, but then I realized that if you are a theater major, you do not have nearly as many 30-page papers. And the only all-nighters you ever pulled were-

BR: 15:26
Paint-

JR: 15:27
-scenery. So, I became a theater major. I did not know there could be such a thing as a theater major.

IG: 15:33
You did not know there was- but you acted, yeah?

JR: 15:36
Well, yeah, I knew I wanted to act [crosstalk]

IG: 15:39
It is, it is as time-consuming as any, you know, paper that you would write. It is even more-

BR: 15:46
Right. But for him, it was-

IG: 15:48
It was, it was an easier proposition.

BR: 15:52
So, I took, I took seriously, you know, like I, because I started with this idea of math, I did take some math and I took the, I dropped the physics course that I was assigned with, right, but I took the real biology course with a lab instead of bio for, humanity, right, whatever. And so later on, years later, when I was applying to medical school, I had, actually, I had at least two of my requirements done from my undergraduate years; I still had to do, you know, chemistry and physics again.

JR: 16:39
But that was a very good thing because-because doing it after she was already a grown-up, doing those pre-med courses, she got As in that when she would have gotten-

BR: 16:52
I would not-

JR: 16:52
-minuses or B pluses at Harpur, if she was also-

BR: 16:56
Well, I was not, you know, not being pre-med at Harpur was an advantage, in retrospect, because I took courses that I liked, and I worked hard and I did well, but there was not this competitive aura.

JR: 17:14
And if she was taking three other courses or four other courses, she would not be able to get an A in organic chemistry.

BR: 17:22
Right-right.

JR: 17:24
Organic Chemistry in the summertime, when, you know-

IG: 17:27
Yeah, I was working after-

JR: 17:29
After we were home from the Peace Corps.

BR: 17:34
But so, what about Harpur? So, I mean, it was a very small place. Then there were 1200 students. I think when we started, maybe 16, you know, you knew a lot of people in your class. There were, you know, people would hang out in the snack bar. [crosstalk] -was like this central, you know. And I mean, I do not know, Jerry told you that yesterday, we just spent the afternoon with, you know, five friends.

IG: 18:12
Really? Would I know them?

BR: 18:16
I do not know. It depends on who you are interviewing. John Spiegel.

IG: 18:20
Yes. John Spiegel, I know I interviewed John Spiegel.

BR: 18:25
Yeah, Bruce Danny Damov, Danny's wife, Nancy,

JR: 18:33
But the people who invited us all over there-

BR: 18:36
Our friends who did go to Harpur, but they got to be in this

JR: 18:42
It was Susan and Dan, whose house it was. Susan was best friends in high school with Louise Bergman, who was did not also did not go to Harpur, but was Andrew Bergman's and you know that name, maybe.

IG: 18:59
It rings a bell. I have not interviewed.

JR: 19:01
So, yeah, but-but Susan and Dan hooked into the Harpur crowd. So, they are the best Harpur hosts.

IG: 19:15
Small world, isn't it? You know, there are a number of other people. There is, but that is, that is another story, you know who teaches at Columbia Medical Center, and he is John Spiegel knows him. His name just escapes me at the moment, but he teaches public health, and he is in he has written books on AIDS.

JR: 19:42
On AIDS?

IG: 19:42
On AIDS. And it will occur to me. So anyway, so snack bar and theater, and you know what-what were- what you know, you say you- was the theater- were the theater productions at all reflective of the time? Were they chosen with a view to sort of, you know, comment on-

JR: 20:19
I would say-

IG: 20:19
-the politics-

JR: 20:20
Not, I would say, I would say that the theater, the theater department, there were theater department productions, and there were student productions. And the Theater Department productions were sort of serious, classical theater-oriented. And-

IG: 20:44
So-

JR: 20:44
-was a small. It was a small department.

IG: 20:47
Yeah.

JR: 20:47
The student-run productions were, I do not remember them being particularly reflective of the times, because theater people were not the people at Harpur that were most reflective of the Times, the-the political activists and-and hippies and druggies and all of those people were mostly not the theater department, although there was, there was-

BR: 21:12
Some,

JR: 21:16
Definitely overlapping in all of these things. But-but so the answer

BR: 21:44
You remember the productions-

JR: 21:47
Yeah-yeah. I mean, the first thing I was in was Three Sisters, Chekhov's Three Sisters, and that was-

IG: 21:54
And what did you play?

JR: 21:56
I played Lieutenant Fedotik. [crosstalk]. When we got there, there was one hotshot actor there. His name was Tony Manionis. And-

IG: 22:10
Did he go on to become an actor?

JR: 22:12
Well, he did go on to become an actor. You know, I think I saw him on a television show one time, but he did not become a big-shot actor. There was somebody who came a little bit, who was a year behind us, who was a slightly more bigger shot actor than him. That he was Lou Jim Balbo, but-but-but Tony was a guy, you know-

BR: 22:42
So, he got cast.

JR: 22:43
-and he so and he was a senior, and I was a freshman, and he and he could have whatever party wanted. I mean, literally, the director, Dr. Waters, said "Which part want to play?" And so, he picked the part that I would have got if he did not pick, which is the part that I wanted, you know, and so that was that. But so, there was that. There was-

IG: 23:14
So, what part was in the Three Sisters? Do you remember?

JR: 23:17
What part that I wanted?

IG: 23:18
Yes.

JR: 23:19
It was Dr. Chebutykin. It was not a gigantic part, but it was, you know, he was, it was Chekhov, you know, he was a kind of, he was a doctor, and he was a drunk, and he was and a cynic. That was Romeo and Juliet, and that was the worst theatrical experience of my life, because, you know, I-I tried out, I wanted to be Mercutio, and I should have really, have really been [inaudible] but David Kolach got to be Mercutio, and I was cast as Tybalt's page. Tybalt was kind of the worst actor. [crosstalk] Well, I do not, I am not telling his name, and he probably does not even remember. Does not even remember. It was definitely the worst actor that there ever was, and I had no lines in that play, and all I had to do was follow him around. And so, it was like, it was a real like it was the-the great example. Could have been the great example of there are no small parts, only small actors. But I was definitely a small actor. But years and years later, I have had, I have had a life with Romeo and Juliet because of our son, and I have, for six years, I played Friar Lawrence on-on the on the street in a kind of a flash mob production of Romeo and Juliet popping up on the street. But the reason, and I tell you that now, is because there was a guy who played Tybalt's page on the stage, and he like he-he just really, he, he taught us all the lessons, how you how you have no small I mean, he did not ham it up or anything, but he was always and it taught me a big lesson, and-and- and I watched him because he played the same part that I played.

IG: 26:05
So What? What? It taught you a lesson about theater, about acting-

JR: 26:08
Yeah.

IG: 26:09
And yeah.

JR: 26:13
So, what else so- but my big parts, I was, I was, I played the hermit in an avant-garde production that Dr. Waters directed called Next Time I Will Sing to You. I played Nick, the 12-year-old in 1000 clowns that was a student production. But the thing that Barrie fell in love with me over was I was, I was a new king, and once bought a mattress in that first spring review, and I, this is my chance, me-me and the woman, Elizabeth Van Patten, who played the queen, I think her name was Agra Vein or something, we got a standing ovation. And at that time, at that time, there it would there had only been two other standing ovations in that theater, in what is now the Waters Theater. And one was Linus Pauling, after he got his won his second Nobel Prize, and the other was Pablo Casals. Was the greatest cellist I ever lived. And then was me and Elizabeth Van Patten.

JR: 26:59
So, you know, you saw Jerry in this role. What did you think?

BR: 27:47
It was great. But, yeah, so, I mean, I kept on, like hanging around the theater department, but that was not like my extracurricular. What I did was this friend, who is also an upperclassman, started a program called [crosstalk] Jesse Miller, you probably [inaudible], but he has, he started a service program for children in the Triple Cities.

JR: 28:32
We both we both services for youth.

BR: 28:36
Yeah,

JR: 28:36
SF [inaudible] and-and that that appealed to me more than the political stuff that was going on there. Although-

BR: 28:49
I cannot remember what we did. [crosstalk] Yeah, it was a nursery.

JR: 28:56
That is the thing that I did.

BR: 28:59
Was it on campus?

JR: 29:02
That was off campus, and it was, it was- the nursery school itself was run by a faculty wife, a Harpur faculty wife-

BR: 29:14
And so, we volunteered. Yeah, guess we were volunteer teachers or something. It was interesting.

IG: 29:23
What possessed you? I mean, why-why did you do this?

BR: 29:26
Well, Jesse started it, yeah. And he was a very charismatic-

IG: 29:30
Right.

BR: 29:31
-person, so he got a lot of [crosstalk]

IG: 29:32
I see, I see.

JR: 29:33
No but-but Harpur was a place that, you know, people were cared about the world.

BR: 29:42
Yeah, right-right, yeah.

JR: 29:44
When they were not [inaudible]

IG: 29:46
So, this is the way you express your caring about the world, is by actually hands on, helping children in the community.

BR: 29:54
[inaudible] something. There was a mental institution, psychiatric [inaudible] a state.

IG: 30:01
I have heard about that, actually one-one alumnus talked about that.

BR: 30:05
I think I also-

JR: 30:09
Yeah, I think you did something there.

BR: 30:11
I do not, I cannot really remember. I mean, it must not have been for very long. Once a week, but I definitely remember doing it just do not remember [crosstalk]

IG: 30:24
Actually, this is, this is another, an alumnus from around your time. He volunteered in the psychiatric hospital. He went on to become a pediatrician and with a psychiatrist.

BR: 30:24
Huh, that is impressive.

IG: 30:25
Yeah, from that experience.

JR: 30:29
We thought we were pretty hot shots.

BR: 30:29
What do you mean?

JR: 30:29
I do not know, you know, I do not know. We thought we were better and smarter than we were. I think, I mean, that we were going to make this big difference, you know, I do not know.

IG: 31:04
But you did. You know you did. [crosstalk] You-you did.

JR: 31:10
Yeah-yeah, right. We- yes, we did, but it is also true that we were not as great as we thought.

IG: 31:22
That is the takeaway for you.

JR: 31:25
That is not the only takeaway. Million take away.

IG: 31:28
A million takeaways. And what about you? Did you think that you were greater than-

BR: 31:36
I do not remember feeling that I was so great. I mean, I think, you know, there was a sense that we were lucky to be in this college, that there was something special about it, that, you know, that we were smart, our friends were smart, that there was, like, creativity and commitment. And I do not know, real sense of community.

JR: 32:09
When we were there in 1964, when-when you know, during the Freedom Summer and-and we were, you know, we were freshmen in that spring, you know, and then-

BR: 32:09
[inaudible] we were there when Kennedy was shot.

JR: 32:29
But the thing, but the thing that I was going to say is that people who were juniors and seniors went to Mississippi, and we were, we were, like, a little bit young.

BR: 32:44
I mean, not only we were freshmen, but we were young freshmen.

IG: 32:47
Yes-yes-yes-yes.

BR: 32:48
That is all. I mean, I have, I have a cousin who is six years older than me for [inaudible]

JR: 32:49
Yeah. And we have, right. We have [crosstalk]

BR: 32:59
Right.

JR: 33:00
We have a lot of friends [crosstalk] who were there.

BR: 33:05
But, yeah, I think that-that is true. I think that it was, you know, it was harder for the two of us to like, express, hands-on these kinds of political ideas. And I think maybe going to the Peace Corps was really for us, the way we were expressing it.

JR: 33:35
And also-also we were figuring it out.

BR: 33:39
Yeah.

JR: 33:39
We did not know exactly what we thought and felt about it. And you know, like, I do not feel like, I mean, I- everybody was against the war, but I did not understand why, really, totally, until I was in Korea, until I knew what it was like to be a person different from us.

BR: 34:08
Yeah. I mean, I think the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement were, and the women's movement, I mean, all of that was happening around that time. But we were just when we were in college, the civil rights movement was not so present, because it really was, you know, there was like two black kids in the whole school. And, you know, like, I went to a very integrated high school, but I did not make those, and I had like, one black friend. I mean, I know that is not true. I had one really close black friend, and then I had, there were many others that I knew and interacted with, were friendly with, but only one who was close.

JR: 35:16
Not at Harpur.

BR: 35:17
Not at Harpur [inaudible]. So where did those people go to college? They mostly stayed in the city, although my friend Beverly, I think, went to Temple, moved to Philadelphia. But yeah, so it was not so.

JR: 35:36
And some of your friends did not go to college. Some of the kids you knew in high school did not go to college.

BR: 35:41
Yeah. Right, yeah.

JR: 35:44
I mean, all those kids on the basketball team, did they all go to college?

BR: 35:47
They did. I mean, I do not know if they graduated. Yeah, so I think that it was a, it was in the and also, you know, like, news was not as omnipresent as it is now at all. So, I mean, where was their television even in the-

IG: 36:18
Student unions.

BR: 36:19
Yeah, and now in the dorms, there was like a common area.

IG: 36:24
Right.

BR: 36:25
And I guess it was a TV there, but we did not go and watch the news every night.

JR: 36:30
You know, the only news, I mean, the only news, I remember finding a place to watch the news was when we were about to graduate, was the Six Day War.

BR: 36:48
Well, and the assassination.

JR: 36:51
Oh, yeah. So that was when we were freshmen, Kennedy [crosstalk]

BR: 36:57
I mean, the other thing which people, I am sure, have talked to you about is that we were the four years we were there. It was a trimester system, so the-

IG: 37:07
That is right.

BR: 37:08
-time when we were in college was kind of weird. It was off from everybody else. So, we started like on-

JR: 37:17
Kennedy was assassinated three weeks after we got-

BR: 37:20
We had been there.

JR: 37:26
And, you know, it was, I mean, that was, that was like a heart attack for the whole school.

BR: 37:37
Yeah.

IG: 37:39
For the nation.

BR: 37:40
Right.

JR: 37:44
Yeah, walked into class and-and the- it was our Psych-Sci class, and the teacher was Robin Oggins, and we had just sort of heard what had happened when we came to class, and he said, if you want to stay here and talk about this, or just be together, or you can leave, you know. And I remember I left, and I found someone to walk up that hill that I was, you know, it was covered with trees, with and as soon as I could, I mean, I did not think that I-I was not aware of-of needing my parents, but that is the first thing I did, was I called.

BR: 38:52
Yeah.

IG: 38:54
What did they say?

JR: 38:56
What did they say?

IG: 38:57
Yes.

JR: 38:59
Well, they-they were just, they were just, I mean, I remember speaking to my mother, not my father, and she said how horrible she felt, and she just, she just told me how much she loved me, or communicated how much she loved me. I do not remember the conversation, particularly. Remember, you know, it was a pay phone.

BR: 39:32
Pay phone, right.

IG: 39:33
That is right, the day.

BR: 39:40
I mean, you would really talk to your parents once a week.

JR: 39:42
And I remember, you know, the President was Bartle, Glenn G. Bartle, and there was a-

IG: 39:52
Was he a progressive president, or?

JR: 39:54
I do not know,

IG: 39:55
Bartle [inaudible] library.

JR: 39:58
I mean, I remember. I remember, most people had bad things to say about Dean Belniak, but I did not know him from home [inaudible] either, so I did not, but I remember at this memorial service-

IG: 40:16
For a President?

JR: 40:18
Kennedy, Dr. Bartle said, "You know, you all feel like you have lost a father figure. Some of us feel like we have lost a son figure."

IG: 40:32
Oh, really?

JR: 40:35
I remember that. So, nothing but like good memories of Dr. Bartle.

IG: 40:47
So, you know, tell us a little bit about your Peace Corps experience, and then you know what? When you arrived to the United States, what did you do after the Peace Corps? What do you know? What sense did you have of the future?

BR: 41:06
Peace Corps was- we were invited to go to Korea [crosstalk]

JR: 41:14
That is the way the Peace Corps worked. That I do not know if it still is. You apply to the Peace Corps, and then you either get into the Peace Corps or not, and then you wait, if you get in, you wait for an invitation, and then you can accept that invitation or wait for another.

IG: 41:29
How did you learn of the Peace Corps? Does somebody on campus recommend it?

JR: 41:36
No. Howard learned about it for me. I have an older brother who was in the Peace Corps before us, but I wanted the Peace Corps before he wanted the Peace Corps. And it was from the time Kennedy said, while he was running for president, there should be a Peace Corps.

IG: 41:55
Just remind me, did he create it?

BR: 41:55
Yeah.

JR: 41:55
He did.

IG: 41:56
That is right, that is right.

JR: 41:59
He did. He created it, and his- the first director was his brother-in-law, Sergeant Shriver. And you know he-he, like, I wanted to go to the Peace Corps, because he said, "Ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country."

IG: 42:23
So, you were socially committed from the get-go.

JR: 42:28
Um, I guess I do not, I do not. I mean, I think, I think there were lots of kids that were more socially committed, that I thought of as way more socially committed than I was.

IG: 42:31
because they participated in the marches, because they-

JR: 42:45
Yeah, yeah.

IG: 42:46
They did the sit-ins,

JR: 42:47
Yeah, right.

IG: 42:48
But yet you volunteered for something that was very hands-on, and something you know had maybe a more direct impact.

JR: 42:57
Right. But when we got, when we got to Peace Corps training, and when we were in the Peace Corps, there was a question about, like, whether or not we were- there was something tainted about doing anything that, in some ways, was supportive of our government, because we-

IG: 43:21
Really?

BR: 43:27
[crosstalk] and also the Korean soldiers were also in Vietnam because it was, they-they were one of the few other countries that supported this.

JR: 43:47
And the Korean president was a military dictator.

BR: 43:51
Right.

JR: 43:51
A cruel and military dictator.

BR: 43:53
Right. And it was a very, very anti-communist government.

JR: 43:58
And we stayed separate from that. We did not support it. We did not like him. If anybody asked us, we told them-

BR: 44:07
No, I do not think we knew.

JR: 44:10
Oh no, we did. We did, but-but we came. We were in the province that he came from, so most of the people did not talk politics.

BR: 44:22
They were-

JR: 44:26
And-

IG: 44:26
Did you have a choice of which country to go to?

BR: 44:30
So that was a thing we- they say, do you want to go to South America, Asia, or Africa like that. And I think we put Asia as our first choice. But, I mean, we were imagining Malaysia, but then they invited us to the Peace Corps, I mean, Korea, and we did not really know anything about Korea [crosstalk]

JR: 44:55
Nothing about Korea, and it was, you know, it was North, it was tempered it was not semi or tropical, and it was not well, but it seems strange and interesting. And so, we said, "Yes."

BR: 45:09
We just said, "Yes." I mean, we, you know-

IG: 45:12
Did you learn a little bit of Korean while you were there?

BR: 45:15
A lot, [crosstalk] I mean, so Peace Corps training is this very intensive three-month period in which you are learning language for five hours a day, and you are learning the skill.

IG: 45:28
And, where was the training? Excuse me.

BR: 45:30
Well, the training, unfortunately for us, was in Pennsylvania. After that, almost immediately after that-

JR: 45:37
In the ski lodge. The summertime of a kind of-

BR: 45:41
We were, like, really isolated. I mean, in a way, like-

JR: 45:44
Within six months after we trained, all Peace Corps training was then in-country people that got trained.

IG: 45:54
But you probably had some kind of language immersion program.

BR: 45:57
That is what it was.

JR: 45:59
We did.

IG: 45:59
It was a language immersion program.

BR: 46:01
It was a language immersion and also a cross-cultural training.

JR: 46:06
And they taught us how to teach English.

BR: 46:08
Taught us skills about English language instruction. You know how to teach English.

JR: 46:14
But the language was very-very-

IG: 46:15
What a wonderful experience. Yes.

JR: 46:18
Oh, yeah. But the Korean language was, I mean, we were told it was like the hardest of the second hardest language for an English speaker to learn, based on the structures and stuff like that.

BR: 46:34
And many-many years later, we found out that-that we were that-that group of trainees, kind of had been hand-selected because they knew that it was going to be so hard to learn the language. They never told us that.

JR: 46:35
So, there was a Foreign Service Institute, a language exam, and an educated, educate-

IG: 47:02
So, the Foreign Service taught you the language?

JR: 47:05
No-no.

IG: 47:05
People from the Foreign Service. No-no-no.

JR: 47:07
I am not going to, I am just going to say that-

BR: 47:10
It is a hard language.

JR: 47:11
I am just going to say that an educated native speaker is a five, and someone who cannot speak at all is a zero.

IG: 47:20
Yes.

JR: 47:20
And after all these three months of immersion of five hours a day, most of us were ones.

BR: 47:30
Or less.

IG: 47:30
Yeah-yeah.

JR: 47:31
Or less.

IG: 47:31
Yeah, it makes, it makes sense. That is a huge that is a huge accomplishment, nonetheless.

BR: 47:37
So, and then once you get to the country, depending on where you live and what your interests are, you continue to learn on your own. You know there is no further formal education, but you are living with people, and most of them do not speak any English, so you are speaking Korean every day. And so-

JR: 48:02
Our job, our job was to teach English. And I would say, although we found that somewhat differently, many-many-many years later, we, I mean, we never thought that we were at all effective as English teachers, and that that was we never thought that we were doing something important by teaching them English, because they just were not learning it, we thought, but we were very positive about our time there, because, mostly because of the family that we live with and the other people-

BR: 48:49
Other relationships.

JR: 48:50
-and other relationships that we had with friends-

IG: 48:53
Right.

BR: 48:54
So that-

JR: 48:55
-and also in second place, but not close to first was, for me, was the language learn-

BR: 49:07
Yeah, but so what

IG: 49:11
I studied linguistics.

BR: 49:13
What-what we thought at the time was that, well, what was true at the time, and it still is fairly true there, I think, is that there is a very hierarchical educational system, and that any family that had goals for their children would try to get them into the best schools, and the best schools were in the cities. So, the very best schools were in Seoul, and the next best schools were in the other major cities.

JR: 49:50
[inaudible] middle school and high school, and by the time of middle school and high school, the best kids were already gone from our school.

BR: 49:57
The best kids were off and so, you know, in this we were in this rural community where the assumption was that these kids were willing to stay and grow up and become farmers or, you know, store keepers or-

JR: 50:15
Turned down, we were wrong.

BR: 50:16
We were wrong. So, like, 40 years later, we go back, and we discover that the kids that we taught were like ministers of this apartment [crosstalk]

IG: 50:30
It is tremendous.

JR: 50:32
Somebody, kind of, we go back frequently, and one time, somebody arranged for us to-

BR: 50:45
Visit the [inaudible]

JR: 50:46
-to visit the National Assembly and to visit-

BR: 50:51
Local-

JR: 50:52
The Local member of the National Assembly. Who-who our-our Korean brother said had been his? So, we were not actually that interested in doing it, but-

BR: 51:13
Somebody had arranged.

JR: 51:14
Arrangements, we were going to do it. So we went, and we walked into this guy's office, and they were-

BR: 51:25
like 10 middle-aged men, all-

JR: 51:28
-rushed. They had all been my students. They were, and this guy, this member of the parliament, was also my student, and somebody was, and someone was a big businessman, and someone was this. They had all made it out of there, and we had, you know, which we thought was never going to happen. And they remembered us like, I mean, these were from my school, not Barrie's school, because they did not have a time enough to get the-

BR: 51:56
Contact the [inaudible], all those schools have alumni [crosstalk]

JR: 52:15
-starting with middle school, and-and so this, this guy came over, and he said, I remember that we played basketball together, and I remember you shot with your left hand.

BR: 52:30
And then he remembered the practicing Rs.

JR: 52:33
[inaudible], another, another one said, I do not- I remember we spent three weeks just learning how to say Rs, and Ls.

IG: 52:45
You teach them, did you know how to position the tongue, and did you-

JR: 52:49
Well-

IG: 52:50
-or did you just repeat words with Rs and Ls?

JR: 52:54
-we had-

IG: 52:55
Yeah.

JR: 52:55
So, we had three months of training in language and three months of the same three months of training and how to teach English, but that was only an hour a day at most, and we did not really know how to do it well, but we were pretty [crosstalk]

IG: 53:17
[crosstalk] and did you- did you communicate in the target language, in English, or did you try to explain things? Did you have enough- you probably did not have enough Korean.

JR: 53:31
Yes, in class-

IG: 53:33
How did you teach?

JR: 53:34
We had, we had way more Korean than they had English. But we, but we-we were told to speak English in class, and we spoke English in the classroom. [crosstalk] We had 60 kids in the classroom.

BR: 53:48
Yeah right. [laughs]

JR: 53:51
So-so, you could not, you could understand how we thought we were totally and absolutely ineffectual. But just being there made a difference. [crosstalk]

BR: 54:01
In fact, they said to us, they somebody said, one of this, the men at this group, said, "Just seeing that the world existed outside of our country, outside of our town, made a big difference."

JR: 54:19
And that is and that was the biggest thing for us, too.

BR: 54:21
Right.

JR: 54:21
To understand, like we came to know something that, for me, is like the central value of my life, which is that people are, you know, people are the same. You know, all-all parents love their children. You know, it is like, and that the notion that there was, there was something that- we as Americans or Westerners, could impart down to other people became very clear to us that it was nonsense.

IG: 55:15
It was nonsense, but just, you know, exposing them, not even exposing them, but telling them that this other part of the world existed.

BR: 55:27
Right.

JR: 55:28
Sharing ourselves [crosstalk]

IG: 55:33
So, I think that now we need to kind of accelerate the tape a little, and why don't you give me, you know, an overview of your career trajectory from Peace Corps till today, so I do not know who wants to start.

BR: 55:55
So, we came back from the Peace Corps. We did not know what we wanted to do. I got a job as a computer programmer. I did not really like could not see myself doing that for my life. So, I started taking different courses. And I took a course in chemistry with the idea of maybe I would apply to medical school now, actually bringing Suki back with us and her doctors.

IG: 56:27
This is a girl who had heart surgery.

BR: 56:29
Yeah, the doc, her two pediatric cardiologists were women, so I did not really know any women doctors before that, so I think that was part of my thinking, well, maybe [crosstalk]

JR: 56:44
[inaudible] saw your mother.

BR: 56:45
And my mother was sick. My mother was dying, really, and so I was visiting her in the hospital. And so, I took this chemistry class without really being committed to a plan. And in my class were five other women who were also college graduates, who were taking chemistry so they could apply.

IG: 57:11
Where were you taking this?

BR: 57:13
Hunter College.

IG: 57:13
At Hunter College.

BR: 57:14
Yeah, so I was working. I had this computer right programming job and-and so that was the real support group. These other women take chemistry, and we studied together. And then, you know, we took by organic chemistry together, and then we applied to medical school together. And, and so I was lucky because I had had good grades at Harpur, and then I was able to continue that in these pre-med courses. So, I got into NYU, and I went to medical school, and I did my residency in Internal Medicine, and then I had-

IG: 58:01
And how old were you, when-when-

BR: 58:02
So, I since [crosstalk] I was 25 when I started [crosstalk] 25 or 26, and then when I was 31, I had my first child, so I was like, at the end of my residency, and then I started working. I worked at Columbia in internal medicine for 18 years, and then I moved to Cornell in geriatrics.

JR: 58:39
She became the director.

BR: 58:42
I was, yeah, I became a fellowship director of the Geriatric Fellowship, which I stepped down from a few years ago. And so, I have been there 20 years now, exactly so 39 years since medical school now, or something like that, yeah.

JR: 59:10
What since medical school?

BR: 59:11
Medical School graduate. No, it is [crosstalk] 40, right? Yeah, no, it is 39 years since I finished my residency. Yeah. So next year will be 40, and that is almost most my work has been clinical practice and education.

IG: 59:33
And education?

BR: 59:35
Resident, medical students, medical residents, geriatric fellows, working with other non-physicians, nurse practitioners. So, then we had two more kids.

IG: 59:57
So, you have three children, you have three children. I keep thinking that, you know, with this humanistic background now, medical student, medical schools are teaching, you know, humanities and medicine, or medicine and humanities, and you already have that.

BR: 1:00:16
Right. I have done a lot of that, actually. From the beginning, I always got recruited into doing that kind of touchy-feely stuff. You know, the patient-physician relationship-

IG: 1:00:30
How interesting.

BR: 1:00:31
[crosstalk] ethics-

IG: 1:00:32
How interesting.

BR: 1:00:34
-communication skills, and-

IG: 1:00:37
And these are, these are courses that you have taught. How interesting?

BR: 1:00:42
Well, usually they would be like small groups. And-

IG: 1:00:45
I see small groups.

JR: 1:00:47
And there is some doctors, some-some disciplines within medicine where that is more likely to be a common focus.

BR: 1:01:00
Yeah-yeah. I mean, I sort of, I mean, I stayed in internal medicine, and then geriatrics, both of those areas are there-

JR: 1:01:10
Patient-physician relations.

BR: 1:01:14
-yeah, they are concerned about talking to your patient, listening to your patient [crosstalk] that, as opposed to procedural specialties where they are just doing. So [crosstalk]

IG: 1:01:31
How interesting. How really interesting.

JR: 1:01:33
So, I got my first job when I came back from the Peace Corps was in a poverty program, teaching English as a second language, because that is what I had done in Korea.

BR: 1:01:49
This was for adults.

IG: 1:01:50
This is a this is poverty program through-

JR: 1:01:55
Oh-

IG: 1:01:55
-which institution?

JR: 1:01:56
Oh, so back then, there was something called this is Johnson's poverty program, war on poverty. So, there was, there was a, there was a lot of a lot of money to- in neighborhoods to do job training and language training for Spanish-speaking kids and adults-adults. And this was, this is a-

BR: 1:02:28
Regional Opportunity Center.

JR: 1:02:31
[crosstalk] -number seven was in Brownsville, and I did that for a little while, and then I got a job as an activity therapist.

BR: 1:02:32
No [crosstalk]

JR: 1:02:56
I do not think Purple Circle was

BR: 1:03:00
Oh, maybe not.

JR: 1:03:01
I think Purple Circle was after that, no-no. It is hard. It is actually a little bit hard for me to remember what-

BR: 1:03:09
No-no.

JR: 1:03:09
So, yeah, so actually, out of that, the next thing that I did, out of that was I was a teacher in a parent cooperative daycare center for kids 18 months to four years old, and-

BR: 1:03:28
In this neighborhood.

JR: 1:03:28
In this neighborhood and-and that was very- I made friends there that are still [crosstalk]

IG: 1:03:38
What years were being-

JR: 1:03:40
So that was, that was about 1971 or 2 sometime in there. I-I only did that for a year and-and then I, I got this job as an activity therapist in Bellevue psychiatric hospital, because I had in my mind that maybe I wanted to be a drama therapist, and I looked into some sort of some places where you might be able to study that. I worked. So, I was working at-at Bellevue the whole time that Barry was in medical school, and then, and, you know, so. And then, when she graduated medical school and started her internship like the next, you know her, she immediately was making more money as an intern than I was making in my job. And by that time, I could not stand being at Bellevue anymore. I mean, I started out at Bellevue on the psychiatric prison ward, which is, I mean, there is, there is great stories where you do not have time for those stories from that time, but, and then I was, and then I was, was that adolescence, you know, and, and these were closed, locked wards. And I, kind of really got-

BR: 1:05:46
Make you crazy.

JR: 1:05:47
It makes you crazy.

BR: 1:05:49
Yeah, to the next 40 years.

JR: 1:05:53
The doors slam behind you so but anyway, I quit that job as soon as she made more money than me, and then-

BR: 1:06:07
He had been working as a teacher in an after-school program, and then that became the focus of the next 40 years. Running this after-school program.

JR: 1:06:25
Um.

BR: 1:06:25
No, that is not true.

JR: 1:06:28
That is not the way I would tell the story [crosstalk] some form, some at some point during this time, I also got realized that I missed acting, and I and I, and while I was working at Bellevue, I began taking classes at the HB Studio, which is a professional theater school downtown at the village and-and I did that very-very-very intensely for just a year and a half or so, and then I stopped that cold turkey. And because-

IG: 1:07:20
Why?

JR: 1:07:21
The reason that I stopped that is so I was working. [crosstalk] I was, I was working nine to four, and acting five till midnight, and I and-and I was with a kind of small group, a small group of people with one teacher, a very charismatic teacher who had studied with great, you know, like Mordkin, who studied with Stanislavski.

IG: 1:08:06
My grandmother was a disciple of Stanislavski. That is, that is in the distant background.

JR: 1:08:13
Right. So, and, and I was kind of, I mean, in some ways I was in love with her. I mean, she was, I think she was 60 years old, and I was 25 but, and so I was not in love with her in that way.

IG: 1:08:33
I understand.

JR: 1:08:35
But-but then, like, but I was also married.

IG: 1:08:40
Yeah.

JR: 1:08:40
And so, working till 4, acting till midnight, getting home, and then went away for a weekend, and I came back, and these other people in my acting class said "How upset they were that I missed the rehearsals on that weekend" and-and I realized that, first of all, I was the only one who was bringing any money into this group at all. And-and I felt like I had to choose between my wife and these people.

IG: 1:09:19
Yeah.

JR: 1:09:20
And-and they had this teacher had absolutely convinced me that if you are going to be an actor, the only way to be an actor is this one way.

IG: 1:09:30
Yes.

JR: 1:09:30
And so, I had stopped, and they stopped some point. Barrie maybe remembers the sequence of things, but the people that I had worked with in the in the daycare center-

BR: 1:09:51
Daycare center, yes.

JR: 1:09:52
They asked me, while I was working in the daycare center, right, that is true, did I they were, they were people who had been. Did not necessarily in 1964, and they had been kind of pushed out of the civil rights movement, because it was a time when the civil rights the blacks in the civil rights movement were the type of roots and all of that stuff, and looking for your own roots. And so, they wanted the civil rights movement for themselves. And so, these people were kind of bereft, and they also began looking for their own roots. So, they said, "Do you know the story of Hanukkah to teach, to tell to our little kids?" So, I knew the story of Hanukkah, and I am a very good storyteller. And they loved it. And then Passover came, and they loved that, and I helped them have a Seder. And then they decided to start this school, which would be an after-school program in Jewish education that would not do violence to their either secular or marginal religious values. They did not want it to be a traditional Hebrew School, which is a whole other story and-and one of them was a very high-powered journalist who had done a lot of work with writing about the Jewish poor on the Lower East Side, and he met a lot of people and-

IG: 1:11:34
Who is this [crosstalk]

JR: 1:11:36
[inaudible] And so they wanted to start a school, and they had met these people who were involved in something that was beginning to be called the movement.

IG: 1:11:51
And what does that mean?

JR: 1:11:52
And that means that that meant, it means literally, kind of fellowship. But what it meant was young people, highly educated in Judaism, who wanted to express their Judaism in a more egalitarian way and a more left-wing way and-and those people, those children of rabbis, were they- Paul Cowan found them to help them start the school. And they said, "Do I want to be a teacher?" And it was starting. It was a (19)60s cooperative, early (19)70s cooperative, you know, no, I cannot I-I mean, I do not know. And I am not a child or rabbi. I am not a child of rabbis and and-and I just do not know enough. So, they started the school, and they loved this school, and after a year, they said, " You really should be a teacher in this school. You really should.” So, I said, “I will give it a try,” and I fell in love with the parents’ meetings, I fell in love with the teachers’ meetings, and I fell in love with the classes. And it is true that I did not know nearly as much as them, but I was a much better storyteller.

IG: 1:13:14
Yeah.

JR: 1:13:14
And so, I-

BR: 1:13:17
A better teacher.

JR: 1:13:20
-and yeah, but-but

BR: 1:13:24
[crosstalk] good a teacher.

JR: 1:13:25
But it is still this- my teaching started from the storytelling, and the whole school, the teaching started from the storytelling. And so that became my work life, part-time forever. And because I was doing that, I had the unbelievable good fortune to stay home with the kids.

IG: 1:13:55
Yeah.

JR: 1:13:58
And, and it was, I think, Barrie also. Barrie did not feel like it was an unbelievable good fortune that she did not have to stay home, right the kids, but that there was somebody to stay home with the kids so she could go ahead and be adopted. So that was, that was my work life, and that was our home life, and that was our-our relationship life. That brings us up to now.

IG: 1:14:31
Sounds like a very fortunate and rich life together.

IG: 1:14:38
And so unusual that you have stayed together and seemed very happy together. So, to conclude this interview, I always ask very briefly if you could tell- give advice to the. Young people to students listening to these to this interview, what life skills are most important in succeeding academically in one's personal what-what did you? What do you think? Attitudes, or?

BR: 1:14:40
Yeah.

BR: 1:15:23
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, openness, not being not having a rigid view of things, being able to kind of meet other people where they are. And, you know, having a sense of fun, and you know, not only focused on work, but you know, on the rest of your life, that balance thing, yeah-yeah-yeah, but it is important to find the right person. [crosstalk] [laughter]

IG: 1:16:09
And you?

JR: 1:16:13
I think I do know as-as you asked. I think that I would say that is never, is never one way to do anything. And I think as an actor, I learned that, if it does not work one way, try something else. And always, I think the centrally important thing is to listen to listen to yourself and to listen to the people around you.

IG: 1:17:14
That is sage advice. Thank you. Thank you both very much. Thank you very much.

(End of Interview)

5 July 2019

Irene Gashurov

1967

Jerome "Jerry" Raik and Dr. Barrie Raik

Jerome "Jerry" Raik graduated from Harpur College in 1967 with a degree in Theater. Following graduation, he joined the Peace Corps and served in South Korea. Over the course of his career, Jerry worked in a variety of fields, including teaching English as a Second Language and activity therapy in a psychiatric hospital. He later devoted significant time to raising his three children as a primary daytime caregiver. His involvement in family and community life led to a deep commitment to Jewish education. Today, he serves as Director of the Havurah School at Ansche Chesed on Manhattan’s Upper West Side, where elementary school students explore Jewish subjects through arts-based learning.

Dr. Barrie Raik, a Harpur College alumna, graduated in 1967 before joining the Peace Corps, where she served in South Korea alongside her future husband, Jerry. After returning to the United States, she worked as a computer programmer before completing additional science coursework and pursuing medicine. She earned her medical degree from the New York University School of Medicine and completed a residency in Internal Medicine. Throughout her career, Dr. Raik practiced and held positions at Weill Cornell Medicine and Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center. She and Jerry raised three children while balancing their professional and family lives.

Binghamton University

Audio

Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County.

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