Interview with Howard Ruffner

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Howard Ruffner
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Lynn Bijou
Date of interview: 23 June 2022
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)

SM: 00:01
Alright, can you hear me?

HF: 00:03
No, I can hear you fine.

SM: 00:04
Okay. Thanks, Howard. I start out, could you talk about your growing up years, where you grew up? What your parents did for a living, where you went to high school, your early interests? And were you the first to go to college in your family, that kind of stuff?

HF: 00:20
Well, my name is Howard Ruffner. I was born in Cleveland, Ohio. I grew up in Lakewood, Ohio, attended Lakewood High School. And while I was a student, I worked my sophomore, junior, and senior years after school at various retail establishments in the Lakewood area. As far as growing up, I am the oldest of seven boys, all born eight years apart. And my dad was the general manager for a place that actually made waterproof paper and film. And, he never owned a car. So, the furthest we ever got was any place was any, anywhere anybody would take us. So growing up in Lakewood, we walked to school everywhere. And I graduated school in 1964, spent about a year after that working, and taking an extension course at Ohio State University at the same high school and then decided after that summer, almost a year later from graduation. A friend of mine interested in the Air Force and asked if I wanted to go with him. And I said, "You know what sounds like a good idea." So I enlisted the Air Force in May of 1965, and spent two years in Waco, Texas, and about almost a little over a year and a half in the Philippines as a T.V. director.

SM: 02:03
Wow.

HF: 02:04
So, when I came back to the states in December of (19)68. I went back to my old job where I was working as a railroad clerk in the accounting department. I worked there until March of (19)69 when I took a leave of absence and, started university at the beginning of March 1969.

SM: 02:33
Well, now your parents, you say your dad did not have a car now-

HF: 02:39
Right.

SM: 02:40
-now at home, did you ever talk over the table about what was going on in America, like the Vietnam War, civil rights, a lot of the movements that were going on?

HF: 02:53
We talked about the Vietnam War in terms of being drafted and that kind of effort there. The, I was the, by the way, I was the first person in our family to graduate from high school. And I was the first person to attend college and graduate from college, not the only one. And all of my brothers went to Lakewood High School for college. My parents they did not own a car, but we got along quite well. He bought a house in Lakewood, Ohio, and it could have been a more, could not have been a better location because it was walkable to all the schools we had to go to. Of course that back then walkable was a mile and a half, right? Today. It is today it is two blocks. Even if you go to school today, and it is two blocks away, somebody walks with you. So we did everything alone, right. My first interest my first interest in photography, even though I worked in a camera shop in Lakewood, Ohio for a year I never took a picture never owned a camera. My first experience with photography was when I was in the Air Force, I worked in the Information Office at a headquarters that headquarters trunk Air Force in Waco, Texas. And I did PR releases and like photographer assigned to that base got me interested in photography and set out with a four by five camera taking, taking some pictures of people and stuff like that. So he my first interest became when I got involved with writing press releases and then when they take photographs of people coming back from Vietnam or different parts of the world.

SM: 04:47
Well, you were in the military at that time for that period before you went to Kent State. Did you ever experience [crosstalk], go ahead.

HF: 04:57
No, I, I made a conscious decision to join the Air Force and realizing that I did not have any way I was going to keep a deferment going. And back then in 1965, if you were drafted-

SM: 05:10
Yes.

HF: 05:10
-you just got into a line and the person in charge of the line would look at you and say, "You know, we did not get enough recruits the marine, so you are a Marine, or you are a Coast Guard-

SM: 05:20
[chuckles]

HF: 05:20
-go to the Navy. I did not want to have any of those choices put on me. So I made my own choice.

SM: 05:28
That is good you know, that, you are still wearing a uniform at that time. Did you ever experience the anti-war protesters, you know expressing feelings toward people in the uniform, yours or others?

HF: 05:42
Not while I was in Waco, Texas, no.

SM: 05:46
And-

HF: 05:46
Never happened.

SM: 05:47
-when you picked on Kent State, what was it about Kent State that, why did you pick that school?

HF: 05:55
Well, a couple of reasons. One it was, was relatively close to home, which did not matter because I was not going to be going home anyway. Two it was a state school and I could afford it with the G.I. Bill. And three because it had a strong broadcast program and I wanted to continue my broadcasting work that I started in the service. And I had always, in high school, I did record house with two of my friends, we were always involved with radio. And that was just a natural thing for me to want to be, stay in the media. And that is why I picked Kent State.

SM: 06:32
You picked a great school. Yeah, I did not go there. But I tell you, I have visited enough to know what a great university it is. And certainly the students that come from it, having known a lot of the people from the remembrance events. It is a great school. I, obviously, I am going to ask some political questions, too, because you served in the military, you did not go to Vietnam, but you did have concerns. Did you have concerns about America's role in the war? And were you for or against the war? And did you support Vietnam Veterans Against the War, when they came home and like John Kerry, and did those hearings before Fulbright's committee on the Foreign Relations Committee talking about their experiences and how we must stop the war? Your thoughts on any of that?

HF: 07:20
I was not for the war. I did not understand why we were in that war, respect to those people who had to go and make their sacrifice. I did not join a protest group per se, because I maintain myself as a journalist first after having gone through the Armed Forces Radio and Television Journalism School. And, so I was against the war. I supported the people against the war. But I maintained my objectivity by being a photographer and reporting on what I saw.

SM: 08:14
And what-

HF: 08:15
There were no protests in say, Waco, Texas, we took a bus to downtown Texas, downtown Waco every day, and there were never any protests. And in the Philippines, all we did was we heard about things, because I was in the news department over there and quad forces GB. We have heard about the news and what was going on. But it was, did not have much to do with us. We were surprised at things like the Democratic Convention, prior to (19)68, and a variety of things. And when I came back to the states, I came back to Denver, Colorado, and I saw people that were obviously against the war. And it was, it was surprising to me, it was a, I came back to a different culture than when I left.

SM: 09:06
Wow. When you were at Kent State, I think you took those pictures on the weekend of April 30 to May 4, 1970. You had already been a student there for one year. And I think you were involved in the student newspaper and maybe the yearbook as well. Could you talk about your very first year at Kent State and what it was like? Were there protests going on, even then, number one? And number two, your experiences with the newspaper and photography?

HF: 09:36
Well so, I started at Kent State, March of 1969. And I was unsure of my ability to be a student so I focused on getting my grades and getting stuff before I decided to do anything photographically. And a little after, after midterms for the first semester, first quarter there I thought, "Well, I think I can handle this. So, I need to find a place that offers free film in a dark room." And I did not go to the newspaper, I went to the yearbook office. And I was immediately told, "Sure, have some film and take some pictures." So, I was more aligned with the student yearbook, then the newspaper, although I did do some work for the newspaper. And my second year there after working on the yearbook for the first year, I became editor of the yearbook my junior year at Kent State, and put out the yearbook that had the stars, the red and white stripes, and the protest story inside of it.

SM: 10:45
Now, some-

HF: 10:47
Go ahead.

SM: 10:48
-some of your early photographs, not talking about the protests. You take general shots all over campus or in the community or?

HF: 10:56
Well the yearbook staff did not limit my ability to take pictures as I was still learning a lot of different things about photography. So, and I was not involved in any relationships. So, my only focus was getting great and getting an opportunity to take pictures of different groups, different things, gymnastics, rugby, sports. I took pictures of the homecoming queens. I took pictures of anything, all day long, and sometimes there were assignments from the yearbook staff to take pictures of a fraternity or sorority, or get this, or that. But other than that, pretty much left up to my own. And in the 1970 yearbook, you will see a lot more of my work as I was doing photography pretty much, all the time. I mean, any place that can give you a free film back then and a dark room, it was heaven sent.

SM: 12:02
That is great. Do you still have any your early photos of, before the tragedy at Kent State?

HF: 12:10
I do and the university does.

SM: 12:12
Good.

HF: 12:13
We have got all the yearbook, photographs and stuff.

SM: 12:15
Super, super. In 1970, your background states that you became a stringer for Life Magazine, and covered the entire weekend from April 30th to May 4th. Could you just describe some of the pictures you took? You know, just, just some of the pictures that you remember taking of not only the protesters but also of the National Guard, people, politicians who came. Most importantly, in this particular one, we were more than the pictures. What were you, personally experiencing, you were only a sophomore, and you were a photographer, and you were wanting to take pictures? But this is, I do not know if you were thinking this was a historic happening at that time, but it was.

HF: 13:10
Well, first let us get the record set straight here. I liked the pictures from May 1st until May 4th. And I did not become a stringer for Life magazine until the morning of May 4th. And being on campus, Kent State is a suitcase campus, a lot of students go home to visit friends, be with family, or to do a part time job. And so on the weekends, it was a pretty empty place. But, things were happening on campus that were unusual and for me, that was just another opportunity to take pictures and I did not, I did not need an assignment, and I was not thinking anything other than the fact that this is something that is happening and it needs to be recorded and my journalistic instincts said, take pictures because what else are you going to do with your time? So, I was not looking for any kind of historic event or anything like that. So what, what happened was over the weekend, May 1, I took pictures of the bearing of, bearing of the Constitution by the history graduate students. And that was pretty, non-event, 600-1000 students showed up, listened to them at noon. And by the time lunch hour was about to end, the people who organized the bearing of the Constitution realized there was a looser crowd, it was Friday. So they said, "Let us redo this on Monday. Let us go back and revisit what Nixon did and what the Vietnam War is doing, and the Constitution." And so, they were retired from that event waiting to call again on May 4th. They knew that they could not keep a crowd on May 1st, after school, or on the weekend because we would be going home. So, Friday, I did not take any pictures of downtown camp even though I did not, I did not know that, what was going on down there. I did not leave campus, but on Saturday morning, there were lots of rumors, and things that were supposed to happen or might happen about the ROTC building. So, I just followed people around and took pictures during the day. Some pictures that, not that much happened until the school set up marshals, because there was a curfew set on Friday night about being in town Friday night, and they were concerned about what was going on. The curfew extended to the university. And that evening, is when the ROTC building was burned down. I was with the editor of the Daily 10 stator. And before the building actually caught fire, we were there. But he said, "Let us go to, let us go to town." He said, "I heard that the National Guard are already in town." So, we ran down the hill or we kind of walked down the hill toward town and halfway downtown, halfway off campus, we were met by three National Guardsmen with fixed bayonets who came out and stopped us from going into town. And they asked us, "Why, where were we going?" Bill showed his press pass and we both were allowed to leave campus and then come back. We came back as the ROTC building was burning. And I did not get any pictures of that. I did not have the right equipment, flash, or rotation. But I stayed up until two or three in the morning, taking pictures of the fireman putting out the final embers of the building. And took some pictures of people in their dorms, standing, looking outside, looking to see what was happening because about two o'clock in the morning, the National Guard showed up on campus. And I can remember that distinctly because I was surprised to see these, or what I called "half-track," vehicle leading the National Guard onto the campus and surrounding the ROTC building. And I took several pictures of that, that were published in the yearbook and published in my book. The pictures there because I had to, I had to document what was going on. So, about two or three o'clock in the morning, Saturday, which would be Sunday morning. I went back to my dorm, we got up early because I heard that governor, when I got up on Sunday morning I heard that Governor Rhodes might be showing up on campus. And I walked around campus and I took pictures of the ROTC building. People returning to campus, even Saturday, {inaudible]. So this is Saturday, Sunday morning, and Governor Rhodes did show up, he arrived by helicopter or something by the airport. And I went with other photographers and we met in, at the ROTC building with General DeCorso and Mayor Cetrom, and also took numerous photographs of that. Drove to an elementary school where the National Guard were bivouacked, and we took, I took a few pictures there. And then, Sunday was pretty much quiet for me in terms of walking around the campus and just taking pictures here and there. The guards were pretty quiet. Students were interacting with the guard in a way that seemed very friendly. One of the questions I have asked myself is, "Why would a parent bring their students to a campus with nearly 2000 national guards on it, in campus and around town, and be comfortable with that?" Then I thought about it, and I thought, "You know what, they probably felt that because the National Guard was there the, the rioters and the people who were causing the problems were taken care of, and their students would be safe with the National Guard," kind of an oxymoron, if you think about it.

SM: 20:23
Right-right.

HF: 20:25
It did not work out that way. So Sunday, I know that there was several gatherings of students in different locations, one by the Music of Speech building where I was, that is where we got tear gassed, so we had helicopters flying over our heads. And then there was a [inaudible], and there was a curfew on campus, but students found a way to get off campus, and head up toward the Main and Water Street or on the major intersections of downtown Kent. And I, I followed them out there and I got pictures of them sitting. And the, the whole problem with all that was going on at Kent State was the lack of communication. People today, that remember that we did not have cell phones, we did not have a T.V. in every room. People did not have the kind of information at our fingertips that we have today. And the students who went downtown and sat in the center of the street, asked for one thing, they asked for somebody, a representative from the school to show up and explain what was happening, who was in control. No one was, no one ever showed up. The guard shortened the curfew, and forced the students back onto campus earlier than the original curfew had been set up. They just made the unilateral decision to move students out of downtown Kent and back onto the campus, that Sunday evening. And I have followed students, some students had been banned, and they were in, taken into fraternity houses or, mostly fraternity houses. And I was told I could not come in because they had a wounded student in there, and so I just proceeded back to my dorm until Monday morning. Monday, about 9:30, 10 o'clock, I wandered over to the student newspaper office in Taylor Hall. And it was fairly quiet. We talked about what was going on. But then there was a phone call from Life Magazine, Chicago office, the woman on the phone asked if there was a photographer there who had some pictures from the weekend, and if she could talk to him. So, I was the only photographer who was during the whole weekend, that Bill can remember. So, he gave me the phone and they asked if I would send some prints that day of the weekend. And would I mind taking some pictures of the, whatever happened on Monday, and I agreed to take pictures on Monday, and send some pictures of that evening. That is how I became a stringer for Life Magazine that day, and you are right that, that does change your perspective, even though I-I was doing it on my own without any motivation other than just to capture images of what was going on. Now that Life magazine had given me an assignment, it made it more, gave me more focus. And one of the things that I had done earlier in the week on Saturday, made sure to get a press pass from Major Jones who was with a National Guard. So, I had a National Guard press pass that would allow me to move in and out of the lines, and that is what helped me on May 4th.

SM: 24:16
Wow. Now you were, May 4th, when did you take your first picture on May 4th, approximately what time and where were you, when?

HF: 24:34
[chuckles] Oh, it had been between 11:00 and 11:30, I was just walking down the hill in front of Taylor Hall and took a picture of the people standing in front of Taylor Hall. And then, I got down a little further and took a picture, a couple pictures of the crowd standing by the victory bell, and I took a few more pictures of that area. And then I thought, you know, there is only so many pictures, I can take of the students here. So, I might as well use my press pass to go down behind the National Guard because, the assignment, and I need to show both sides of the story, and at least see what the National Guard is doing. So, I walk down behind the National Guard lines, showed my press, press pass, had no problems. And all sudden, you realize it was a bigger deal than, than people might have thought it was because local T.V. stations from Cleveland were there, a national reporter named Mike Pappas was there. And they were all very interested in what was going on. I just stood and took pictures with the National Guard with their weapons, with their band, fixed band, [inaudible] ones. As they marched, as they drill, not drill, but as they gathered by the front of the ROTC building and we were about ready to go uphill. All this happened between 11:30 and say, 12:15. And around, around 12:15 or so, a jeep pulled up near the crowd and said, "You need to disperse and leave this area immediately. This gathering is not permitted, you need to leave this area immediately. Please disperse." And, the sad thing is that there was nothing going on other than students were chanting, and giving the guard the finger, and throwing stones that fell way short of the 300 or so yards that the National Guard was standing away from them. And there was no, there was no riot involved, there was no rushing of students at anything. And shortly thereafter, that is when the guard was told, "We need to break up this crowd." Now this goes back to the same situation, on Friday, May 1st, had the crowd been allowed to wait until one o'clock instead of 12:30, probably would have broken up by itself it already was divided. There was on the ground, maybe 3 to 500 students who are actual protesters, but behind them were people who are either on the way to class, or just observing. And then on top of that, there was another layer of people just observing, some people who are supporting them, but you know, on a campus of 18,000 students, you really only had 3 to 500 students were protesting, and whoever else was in that area was just an observer. And so, the guy decided to move up the hill and disperse the crowd. And I believe they did this without any reconnaissance because they had no idea how big the campus was. And they went up both sides of Taylor Hall to one side between Johnson Hall and Taylor Hall to Prentice Hall, Taylor Hall on the left. They chased students up there and then they get themselves trapped in a football field, the practice football field, which has a chain link fence that goes around three sides. And they had to make a decision as to how they were going to, what they were going to do next in terms of dispersing the crowd or not. So, there was a crowd of students across the street from the practice football field, and there was a street that separated the two, and the guard had a choice of going back down to the practice, to the ROTC building area through Prentice Hall and Taylor Hall. Or, to again confront the students and cause them to just disperse by going straight ahead and then making a right hand turn and going down between Johnson and Taylor Hall. Well, the interesting part is that to go up to Johnson and Taylor Hall would mean that they would have to climb an elevation of about 20 feet, would put them in a higher elevations than the parking lot and the practice football field. And, as they made their climb, that is the place. That is the point at which, between Taylor Hall and the pagoda structure, Guardsmen who somehow got to the very back of the line was moving up the hill, turned, some kneeled down a little bit, and fired their weapons. And I was about 80 feet in front of them and to the, to the side, John Clary, and Joe Lewis, who were within an area that I was within, and they were both shot. So, that was a pretty eye-opening experience-

SM: 26:56
Wow.

HF: 26:57
-because no one expected that and no one expected live ammunition. Even if they turned and fired, it was, they were shooting blanks, or shooting, maybe rubber bullets. I grabbed my cameras and knelt down on top of this grating in front of Taylor Hall. And when I started to get up, I was told, "Stay down, sit down, oh my god, they are shooting real bullets. People are bleeding up here. So, do not get up."

SM: 31:14
Wow.

HF: 31:15
So, that is how that event took place, pretty, pretty frightening that they actually shot real bullets. And again, I, I kind of sucked my emotions and just let my camera work for me because I took a picture of Joe Lewis, took a picture of John Clary, I got up and I started walking down towards the practice football field. I was told by some girls not to take pictures, I said, "No, my job is to take the pictures, somebody has to document this." And that is when I went down, I saw Jeffrey Miller lying in the street. And I turned to my right a little bit and I saw Mary Vecchio, I took several photographs of her, those appeared in Life Magazine. And I kept taking pictures of people, and their reactions to what had just happened. And it was, just an unreal experience walking around campus at that point in time-

SM: 32:20
Oh man.

HF: 32:20
-because nobody knew what was going to happen next. And you know, Alan Frank said it best when he said, you know, "Stay down, do not let, I cannot be a part of this. Do not let them shoot any more of you." Because the guard was scattered over the campus then, if you, if you take a careful look at some of the photographs, and not just mine, but many of them, you will see that even though the students are like in a huddle in a big circle, someplace. If you look close enough, you will see the guard, not too far away.

SM: 32:56
Wow.

HF: 32:57
And that was, that was what was scary, so.

SM: 33:01
Did it ever, during this terrible, terrible happening, ask yourself, "Where is, where is the leadership of this campus? Where is the administration? Where are they?" And, and I, and then also, correct me if I am wrong, it was my, my information is that they were protesting against the expansion of the war into Cambodia. And that was initially, and then when the guard came on campus and showed their, their stuff that they were upset that the National Guard had, had come on to their campus. So, it was as much protesting against the war as it was against the, the National Guard being on their campus. And, and then the shooting. Oh, my God. Just your thoughts on that. Where was the administration?

HF: 34:03
Well, my understanding is that the president of the university had just returned from a trip, I think it was to Iowa, and he was now having, during this time having lunch with General del Corso, a local restaurant. And the administration had more or less given control of the university to the governor and to the National Guard.

SM: 34:31
Unbelievable.

HF: 34:31
And, and the students. Like I said the evening before, I had asked for somebody from the administration to talk to them, and no one came forward. So the administration, from my standpoint, failed because they did not have control of the campus. They let the campus becoming military state and gave up. If you look at the pictures, even the administration building had National Guardsmen in front of the main door letting people in or out, so.

SM: 35:04
Yeah, that is, this is an understatement. That was a massive failure in leadership at the administration level of the university, but it does show, which you already mentioned Mr. Frank and Mr. Lewis and others, faculty members who, who came to the scene, and were there with the students and trying to bring some sort of peace, and you know caring about the students. I mean, that says a lot about your faculty on campus. They deeply cared about the students that they were teaching. Yet, the administration was not there caring about the students that have applied and yeah, it just it was a terrible happening. And were you personally upset with the National Guard because they were on campus?

HF: 35:53
Oh, yeah, I thought it was, I thought it was abysmal to say the least. You know, I just had no idea why they were, why they were on campus, because the ROTC building was done. There did not seem to be any other rumors, or anything going on around, other things happening. And it just made no sense that the National Guard, and what also does not make any sense is, why did the National Guard have fixed bayonets-

SM: 36:26
Yes!

HF: 36:27
-the whole weekend? Fixed bayonets are for hand to hand combat, concentration, close range stuff. And this is, a college campus with students, why do you need to have a fixed bayonet? When the Ohio State [inaudible] came on campus, they had batons. That is all they had. I mean, that is all they carried in their hands.

SM: 36:56
Wow.

HF: 36:57
They did not need a fixed weapon of any kind to show that they had control of the situation.

SM: 37:04
In the afterwards of the tragic, I am going to say, Alan would say the killings. And, you know, I know, even Dean and John and they would say the killings at Kent State, quit saying the tragedy, the killings at Kent State.

HF: 37:20
Yeah.

SM: 37:21
The thing is, who gave them that order? Who's the person responsible for telling them to have the, the bullets? I know, they had a lot of trials afterwards. But, did they ever come up with a final, who gave the final order for that?

HF: 37:39
To have weapons loaded?

SM: 37:40
Yes.

HF: 37:43
That is not something I can address. I do not know who gave them that order, or why they had fixed bayonets. I mean, they came off the trucker strike. And they had been shot at during the trucker strike, but did not shoot back. Here they were getting stones thrown at them that cannot even get close to them. And they, they fired back at students. A lot of unanswered questions, because no one knows. There is lots of rumors as to somebody gave an order to fire. But to me, it does not matter if somebody gave an order or not gave an order. Some people had it in their mind that they were going to turn to fire, and they did.

SM: 38:34
Governor Roads being, being on campus did not help the situation. I know he is running for office and-

HF: 38:41
Yeah, I forgot about that.

SM: 38:43
Yeah, and he was talking law and order. Well, guess who talked law and order, it was President Nixon and Spiro Agnew, who were going all over the country making comments about any other protesters, they were. So you know, he came and he was elected, in part because he used law and order as one of his- the issues that he was going to come into the presidency for. And because there is a lot of activism going all over the country, and civil rights, and you know all the movements that were happening, certainly the anti-war movement in Vietnam, and here, you know, you can look the, I do not know how the president of Kent State could have survived his presidency. If he was sitting down, in downtown and he was out of town, and he comes in town, and he was sitting with a military leader, and not sending anyone in his place to kind of calm students down, or talk with a National Guard, or talk with anybody in authority. The governor, you know, it boggles the mind, basically.

HF: 39:47
He had given up his authority. I need to take a break for five minutes.

SM: 39:53
Okay, let me turn my tape off here and I will leave my-

HF: 39:58
I will be right back.

SM: 39:58
-yep. Okay, we are all set. Yep. One of the questions I wanted to ask you is that, I read someplace that you were working on taking pictures, but you even gave a camera to John Philo?

HF: 40:16
So [crosstalk], as the National Guard dispersed the crowd in front of Taylor Hall, after the crowd was already gone the, National Guard was on both sides of Taylor Hall. John Philo and I met at the base of the hill, [inaudible] hill. And John said, "You have an extra lens I could borrow, I have only got a wide-angle lens," and I said, "I have got a short telephoto lens." So, I gave him my telephoto lens to use. And he took that, and then he said he was going to go off the left side and I said, "I will go off the right side." And then we split, and we just continued covering the event. So yeah, that was a true story. And I subsequently gave that lens to Kent State University, so.

SM: 41:15
Wow.

HF: 41:16
Anyway, so the whole [crosstalk], huh?

SM: 41:20
That and he used that camera to take that picture that won the Pulitzer Prize, right?

HF: 41:25
Yeah, he used that lens.

SM: 41:27
Wow. I hope you he thanked you. [laughter]

HF: 41:32
He did.

SM: 41:34
Now, you were, I am just curious about what the student newspaper staff was doing at the time that you were taking pictures because obviously they were around someplace, recording all this. Did the, in the student newspapers over a several day period, before the campus was shut down, were they writing opinion pieces or articles on what was going on?

HF: 41:58
I could tell you I was not involved.

SM: 42:00
Alright.

HF: 42:02
Seriously, I was I, so after the, taking pictures that day, and they told us that the university was closed. I continued to take pictures of students as they marched or walked toward their dormitories to get their equipment and their gear, clothing, books, whatever they needed, to leave campus. I stayed until about six or six-thirty, I had to call Life Magazine back to find out what they wanted me to do with my film and the stuff I, the pictures I had taken. And I was told to put everything in a box, they bought a seat for it on an airplane out of Akron. And to, give it to somebody at the, just get it there and put it on the plane and they would get it in Chicago. And so, I did not have a car. So, one of my photographer friends, Fetterman drove me to the airport and later drove me home that night. So, I was busy getting my own stuff out of there. And, again, when we talked about the campus closing, I mean, people did not have cell phones, we did not have Uber, they had to find their own way home. And as you know, the people said the telephone lines on campus were not working. So, it was it was a tough situation for lots of students, how to get ahold of their parents, or find a way to get into town, get a bus, get something. I am sure there was some help that I did not know about because I was worrying about my own way of getting around. And that was, that was a big issue. And then the, then after everybody left, the National Guard searched all that rooms for anything that would be incriminating, and took any film, or anything that would be something that they thought they could use later.

SM: 44:15
They went into the residence halls and did that?

HF: 44:18
Yes, all the residence halls.

SM: 44:20
I did not know that.

HF: 44:22
Yeah, I think you could check with somebody else on that, but verify the fact that the rooms were searched and anybody who left a camera or left film, unexposed film, that was taken.

SM: 44:34
Well that is another legal issue, that the university, no university should allow that to ever happen. Wow. Well, again, lack of leadership there at the school protecting the rights of students and their property, my goodness. Did you know any other students, any of the students who were killed or wounded at Kent State before this tragedy?

HF: 44:58
I did not know any of the students who were killed at Kent State or any of the students who are wounded. I got to know Dean Kahler when he, I donated some large prints to the university. And Dean came up to me and said, "You know, that is the last photograph of me standing." So, it was taken before the shooting, and it was taken just, you know, while the crowd was growing. So, that is how Dean and I connected. But other than that, I did not know Alan Canfora, even though I know I have got pictures of him with the black flag. Alison Krauss, I had taken pictures of in 1969, when she helped protest the war on Vietnam by leading a group marched through downtown, the city of Kent. I learned of all these people through my photographs, and it is quite sad.

SM: 45:36
Right. Now John-

HF: 46:06
To know that, you-

SM: 46:07
-you go ahead.

HF: 46:08
-go ahead.

SM: 46:08
No, you go ahead.

HF: 46:09
You know, it is quite sad to look at the pictures. I gave a talk at Hanoi University in 2016, and I showed them a PowerPoint. And in the PowerPoint, I would show students with books in their arms and then I will say, "Oh, that is Sandra Scheuer. She is going to be dead in 20 minutes. That is William Schroeder, he is going to die in 25 minutes."

SM: 46:38
Woah.

HF: 46:39
And it brought tears to the students at the university because they realized the sacrifice that some students made to help in the war in Vietnam.

SM: 46:49
Wow, that was powerful. Your book is full of unbelievable pictures. And I know it is hard to pick, but I am going to ask you to pick, if you can, just a few of the ones that you are most proud of, or the ones that stand out in your mind of the, the best picture you took on the National Guard, you took a lot of them, is there one that stands out?

HF: 47:16
Well, it stands out would be like, for them, there was four heads in the back of their heads [inaudible] as they marched toward the guard that stand out to me. There was, there was a couple of them there.

SM: 47:38
How about-

HF: 47:39
Well there is one of them, in downtown Kent that is a silhouette of the National Guard with cross bayonets and in front of a service station window, and you can see bayonets in the air and their silhouettes.

SM: 47:51
Wow.

HF: 47:51
It was the day before.

SM: 47:55
How about the best pictures of the protesters?

HF: 48:03
Well, the crowd shot that is, just shows them standing there, Mary Beko with her dog, you can see just with this raised finger, yeah just that, the beginning crowd shots there. And the guard shot that stands out to me that, is one of those that was taken just as they fired their weapons because they fired, and I took a picture of them as they turned and fired. And then I got down but, as I am getting down you will see in the picture that there is one guy who looks like he has got his gun aimed for me so that stands out a lot.

SM: 48:48
Did you think you were a goner?

HF: 48:51
Well I know that I was standing up there and I had a, back then I had an old 200-millimeter lens which stands out pretty far, and another lens in my camera and I thought you know, "I probably look pretty silly up here, look like a target." So, I turned and went down on my knees, and.

SM: 49:08
Wow.

HF: 49:09
So no, but I was 6, I was only 20 feet behind, I think it was Joe Lewis, who was the first one shot. He was supposed to stand 60 feet. I was 80 feet. So-

SM: 49:21
Now-

HF: 49:22
-yeah, I was quiet, close enough.

SM: 49:24
How about, are there any of the state troopers and the, you know the-the politicians that came to stand out?

HF: 49:35
Well, yeah, they have got some nice, she would call, nice journalistic images of Governor Rhodes inspecting the ROTC building and standing with Mayor Cetrom, and General del Corso. So, got other pictures that stand out, what are this?

SM: 49:58
How about the best of the downtown shots and the, or the campus shots, just when?

HF: 50:04
Oh, downtown. We are using the light of the helicopters to take a picture of the students sitting down, downtown.

SM: 50:12
Wow.

HF: 50:13
That stands out to me. It did not have you know, back then, the equipment was a little bit different than it is today too. So, you had to be a little more in touch with your equipment, than, than that so, you did not have time to run up and take light meter readings, or even if you had a camera with a light meter in it. It is still a lot of guesswork.

SM: 50:36
Summers in the last couple of years you met with John Cleary. Now, did you? Did you stay in touch with John, when he saw that picture? Did you stay in touch with John over the years, or was this kind of a first meeting?

HF: 50:51
We met for the first time with at Kent State University in 2019 when I, when I, when I shared my book, we had a book signing ceremony. Yeah, so that is the first time I met him. And I shared with him some more pictures that I had of him that were never published.

SM: 51:10
Wow.

HF: 51:11
So yeah, John and I, we stay in touch on Facebook, but we are not, you know, buddies, in that sense. We are just good. We just have something mutual in common that we both respect and both understand.

SM: 51:24
Right. What happened to your film after it was shipped off? Because you, I guess that they had to, you did not know what the pictures were. I mean, you had not seen them.

HF: 51:38
Oh that is right.

SM: 51:39
So, what happened to your pictures? And most importantly, and I am so pleased that they came back to you, and they are yours.

HF: 51:49
So here is two stories. One, I had a handful of negatives that I gave to the life reporter that were taken between 1969 and, and they were actually probably all 1969, and maybe a few from the first, no, I do not think anything from May 1, but 1969. And they have been lost and I am lucky I found some. But the film, I just put in a box, I sent to Life Magazine, they called me at two o'clock in the morning to tell me they could not find it. Then, they called me an hour or two hours later and told me they finally got the box of film, and then we were going to send her off via processing. I think it was about a week later, not quite a week later, maybe three days, two or three days. I got a call again, real early in the morning, one or two o'clock in the morning saying that one of the photographs that I had taken was going to be used for the cover of Life Magazine. And that was interesting, because I had not seen any of the negatives, the FBI had come to my house, asking to see all my prints. And I had yet to see anything other than the cover of Life Magazine and the images inside. And the fact that they put a picture of me inside of the editors, editors page. The, the photographs, were in the hands of Life Magazine, and then the FBI came to my house when they wanted me to identify who they thought were radicals on campus. And you know, a lot of people get concerned about what the FBI is going to do. But in this particular case, the truth stands for itself. I mean, you are not going to, no one is going to get identified as a radical that I know because, they are not. But the FBI kept demanding and seeing my negatives, and my pictures and I told him, I said, "You know, they are not mine. They belong to Life Magazine, and I have not seen any of them. And as they left my house, they said, "Well if that is what you want to do with your gov. money, Mr. Ruffner." And because I never agreed to share them with them I guess. Life Magazine, Life Magazine made a decision that they did want to get involved with, you know, in a case about having the FBI come to them and say they want the negative, and the prints, and they did not want to get involved with all that stuff. So, they sent me a photo of the negative that they had of mine, and actually a friend of somebody else's too. That, they just sent me a box, full of prints of every negative, and they sent me the negatives, and they said, "We are going to let you handle this." So, it was my deal.

SM: 55:04
Wow.

HF: 55:08
It was a big deal. I mean, having all those, it was the first time I saw them, so I obviously took my time and went through all the pictures, and looked at them in quite amazement as to what I actually had. Because even though you think you know what you have, when you are taking the pictures, you do not really know, so. And the fact that they chose one of mine for the cover, even though there were other people there who had similar photographs, it was quite a feather, so.

SM: 55:37
Were there other photographers besides you and John Philo?

HF: 55:40
Oh, tons. Campus newspaper, photographer, the campus, campus photographer who worked for the University was there, two of them, they have pictures of John Cleary. Call it very, very similar to my pictures. I mean, any picture could have been used. So, yeah.

SM: 56:03
Wow. Now, when it was all over, when the, May 4th, and people are going home, the school shut down, of course. You know, the shootings, as you well know, set a wave of protests all over the country, and anywhere close to 275-300 schools were truly affected by this. And as far as Kent State goes, how was the campus when you returned in the fall? I mean, and honestly, I want to know how you felt, because you are an individual student, you were still a sophomore. I know you might be a little older, because you served in the military. But still, you were a young, you were a young student, and you were doing your job. But now, you know that this is affected the entire nation. You got the Time, Newsweek out there. So, you are a part of history. As a young person, how did you deal with this?

HF: 57:06
Well, let us start with fact that I kept coming back to the university before school started, because people would want to have a walk through. Rolling Stone wanted to walk through, this news group wanted to walk through. And I was one of the people they, they called to help walk people through the campus. And then, even though the campus was closed, and it did open for summer school, and I attended school summer school that year. And I took regular courses, and it was like nothing ever happened other than the fact that it did happen. Does that make sense? I mean, things went on as normal, was not, summer school is different than a regular university, regular university time. But yeah, I went onto school and then in the fall, fall started. I got involved. I was just selected to be the editor of the 1971 yearbook, which would include the, the killings of the poor students in the routing of the night. And it was my decision as to how to deal with that in the yearbook. And I do not know if you have seen the yearbook, but Kent has always been to me, a mild campus. It is not like Columbia's or other places where they have a lot of radicals who get up on their soapbox all the time. And it is a conservative school. So, I did the yearbook in a way that shows that the shootings interrupted what would have been a normal school year. I do not know if you have seen the yearbook or not.

SM: 57:53
Yes. I have not, I have not seen the yearbook, no.

HF: 59:04
Yeah, that is The Timeline.

SM: 59:07
Okay.

HF: 59:10
So yeah, that was quite-quite beautiful.

SM: 59:15
You went and you stayed, you stayed with that yearbook till you graduated?

HF: 59:25
I edited the yearbook that year, and I stayed with the yearbook, but did not do a whole lot my senior year. I did not do a lot of photography for it. I had already gotten, I have gotten married within that time, and my focus was on getting my grades, and graduating, and I graduated. I started to camp in March of 1969. And I graduated in December of (19)71. So, even editing the yearbook I got out of there fairly quickly.

SM: 59:59
Yeah. When you did graduate, there were more trials to come at Kent State over the football field, the trials of the families who lost loved ones, lawsuits, and do you kind of cover that in any way?

HF: 1:00:19
Let me say that. I was a witness of the Scranton Commission hearings at Kent State. Then I was the lead witness in the two civil cases in Cleveland, Ohio, against the guard, and I was the lead witness because I introduced all the photographic evidence. And it took three days on the witness stand. And the, the attorney for the National Guard was a very, very good attorney. And he was very difficult, but I introduced all that stuff. And then, and then when the second trial came, I was also the lead witness. And by the time I had finished, and the second witness was called, they had agreed to the settlement which they announced, which was the monetary settlement, and a letter by the National Guard that everybody else said there is an apology, but they, they disagree. So I, in second trial, I believe was in 1988. And I have to say that, Kent State has been part of my life every year since then, because of the, because I was in a unique position to have photographs for the entire weekend. I got calls from media, I got calls from eighth grade science history students who wanted to do, there is a history competition every year for eighth graders. I became involved and I am still involved as we are right now, still involved with the Kent State shootings. And, it has been a part of my entire life.

SM: 1:02:21
Wow. It, what were the final results of those hearings? There was a-

HF: 1:02:29
Well the National Guard awarded [crosstalk]- -it was against the National Guard and Governor Rhodes we do not want to forget that. And in the state of Ohio had to pay, I forget what it was right now. The total amount of money but and the, the primary amount of money was going to go to Dean Kahler because he had been living in a wheelchair for so long that it was felt that he should be given something to live on. And I think the total amount of money was over $450,000. Do you recall? I am not sure. But the families of the four that died, they were compensated, then.

SM: 1:02:31
-yes.

HF: 1:03:23
Yeah.

SM: 1:03:24
Yeah. And all-

HF: 1:03:26
They-they did not get much in return in terms of monetary. They, the idea was to get the guard to admit that they did something wrong.

SM: 1:03:34
Right.

HF: 1:03:35
And Dean Kahler got the majority of the settlements.

SM: 1:03:39
The question, Howard, that you have probably been asked 100 times, maybe more, was the question that came up about maybe about, 12 years ago at one of the remembrance events that Alan Canfora opened up with, that they have a tape where somebody taped the person giving the order to shoot. Now, I do not know what has happened since that remembrance event. But, others said they thought they heard it too. Did, when you are there you are close, did you hear any money give the order?

HF: 1:04:04
I did not hear anything from where I was. And I was as close as anybody. And like I said earlier, to me, it did not matter if-if there was an order because if there was an order, I only think there was a predetermined decision by a group of guardsmen to get to that point on the hill, which was the highest point on the campus at that place, and turn and fire because others behind them are totally surprised and if they say some things like though they heard a gunshot, well, everybody would have heard a gunshot. But even General Canterbury is in that photograph of the guard firing, and he looks totally surprised. So for me, it does not matter if somebody said fire or not. There was an action that required some kind of coordination between different folks to turn on fire.

SM: 1:05:25
And they knew there were bullets in there too.

HF: 1:05:30
Yeah, yep, they did.

SM: 1:05:31
They knew they were not blanks.

HF: 1:05:34
There were armor, some of them had armor piercing bullets because they went through the steel sculpture.

SM: 1:05:39
Unbelievable. Yeah, that hole in this, yep, that whole skill sculpture is still there. After Kent State and let people know what your career what your what happened with your career beyond college. I think that is very important.

HF: 1:05:56
Well, I went to work for, I was a photographer's assistant for a commercial photographer for almost a year. And when I decided that, that was not going to go anywhere, I chose to go to Ohio University to get a degree in something that was not production oriented, I wanted to get a degree in something that was not easy for me to do, like take pictures or run T.V. cameras. So, I got, I got my master's in communications research, which was statistics. So, and after that, I went and worked for cable T.V. for a while. And then, I did a little freelance photography and moved back to Cleveland and kind of traveled with Ohio Bell where I was a writer, photographer, and all-around PR type person, and did my career with AT&T in New York, New Jersey, retired in Denver, Colorado, in government affairs. But during that entire time, I can tell you that I did give many talks at Kent State at many different locations. So yeah, my career even though I did not pursue a photographic career in its traditional sense, while at AT&T I did a lot of photography, and made photography part of my job description regardless of what kind of job I had. So, did multimedia shows I did film, I did video, produced a lot of, wrote scripts. So yeah, I had a good career and, and having had the Life Magazine and the George Polk award for photojournalism, that certainly opened the doors and did not hurt me getting inside AT&T getting into AT&T in Ohio, giving me recognition for what I was doing.

SM: 1:08:02
The thing is, I think it is great that you did this book, that it is connected to Kent State, that you are still going out, and speaking about it. These are, this is something that should never be forgotten in our history. And this is all important. One things from going, I did not go this year, because I had an operation, I wanted to go to the remembrance event. But, I think four years, I think was four years ago was my last one. But there were several, several remembrance events where some of the panels talked about the fact that the truth is still not known. And the truth is, you know, like, who gave the order, like your speculation about those possibly played plan by us, certain number of National Guard. It is the it is the unknown truth that still haunts the people who want to know the what really happened. And the truth needs to be known because of the four who died. And, and so I think that, I do not know, have you heard anything more about the person who came several years back when Alan was here regarding the shooting, and that somebody gave an order then he had a tape?

HF: 1:09:15
Oh, there is, somebody found a tape. They sent it to an expert. That expert said he was able to unscramble the tape enough to actually here an order to fire. The person who, the audiologist who did that discovery has since passed away, which, I guess hurt their case about taking that to court and saying, "Here is my proof." But other than that there has been nothing else said about that tape in quite a while and I have to ask people, I mean, what? If somebody gave an order of fire, how does that change, anything? If there was no the order to fire, it is more of a conspiracy. So, this whole thing is going to go down like John F Kennedy.

SM: 1:10:25
It is true.

HF: 1:10:26
There is going to be rumors and myths about what really happened. But, you know, in this case, I know for a fact, as I sat there and witnessed it, as I stood there and witnessed it, the National Guard turned and fired, and I did not hear a shot before me, you will look at the evidence, there was nothing thrown at them to cause them to turn and fire. There is nothing on the ground. No, Kent State is a manicured campus. Taylor Hall is a manicured piece of property because it is one of the showcases on the University at the time. There is no rocks lying around, there is no, you know, so somebody is going to have to convince me otherwise. But I just feel that there is the conspiracy. And if you will notice that, if you go and look at all the records, you will notice that the people who turn and fire are almost all from the same unit, so.

SM: 1:11:25
And of course, the National Guard, just like students, they are now a lot older, and many are dying. So, who were who were there, because time has a chance to affect everything. You still-

HF: 1:11:44
Except the fact that those who turned and fire were older than the National Guard.

SM: 1:11:50
What was their age?

HF: 1:11:52
I could not tell you that, but, but they were a part of the 107 Calvary, and they were an older unit.

SM: 1:11:58
Wow. Alright. You still stay in touch with John Philo?

HF: 1:12:06
Not really. No, we-we, of course, we get together on Facebook like everybody else. But, he has his life and I have mine. We are both happy with that.

SM: 1:12:19
In your future, have you, have you taken pictures that you are just as proud of as the ones at Kent State in your later career, and what would those pictures be?

HF: 1:12:37
Yeah, I promised myself that the last picture published by me would not be a picture of Kent State. I had an opportunity to lead a group of people to China. And some of those were my favorite photographs of foundries in China. That is something not everybody would get an opportunity to do. So, I have continued my photographic work in different ways. The annual report for the Colorado Red Cross one year, and took pictures of people from Bosnia. So, I try to continue my photographic work in ways that will surpass, although it will change, but I do not want to be known only as a Kent State photographer. So, I have been putting a lot of my work on Getty Images right now.

SM: 1:13:38
Oh okay.

HF: 1:13:39
Kind of spread, I got many pictures while I was in the service of popular people like Bob Loeb, and Art Linkletter, Raquel Welch you know, so I have, with General Westmoreland. I worked for, so I, you know, I continue to do photography. And right now, I am not doing what photography, I am retired. My wife and I, I have seven grandsons, we were spending more time with our grandsons, and doing kind of family photography. Nothing. We are not doing it professionally. I am just doing it as a snapshot or snap-shotter.

SM: 1:13:55
Wow. I just have a couple more questions here. They are general questions. And, many people say the killings at Kent State changed the lives, changed lives forever, especially if you were a college student in the, in the United States of America. It was a shock to the youthful Boomer generation like Pearl Harbor. And FDR's death was a shock to the greatest generation. It changed. It changed mine forever. I do not know if you knew this. Alan knew it real well that I was going I go to law school and I changed everything. And when that happened, I was a senior at Binghamton University, and I graduated 1970. And I wanted to go and become a college administrator. So that, what happened at Kent State or Jackson State never happened again, I played in, I would play my own small role in that. And my story is not, is pretty typical. What happened to Kent State, to me is historic in a way that, way beyond the people even participated in it.

HF: 1:15:38
Oh yeah.

SM: 1:15:38
Because many people have written histories about the (19)60s say that, that tragedy, at Kent State, at a college that was not a radical college, but it was, you know, it was not known for that. But it happened there. And that showed to Middle America, and too, that the war had to end. And so-so that is what from historians’ point of view, but also from an individual point of view. And obviously, this has shaped your life, like no other. Do you ever have flashbacks?

HF: 1:16:14
No, I do not have time for flashbacks because everything is for me, for me it is always still too current. You know, it is like our conversation today. I remembered, I can feel it. But not as a flashback, it is as a real happening that I live with all the time. As far as how it changed things, one of the things I think it changed, in its, its colleges today no longer pretend to offer a liberal arts education. They are not looking for students to be liberal arts thinkers and be generalists in that sense. A lot of schools have given up their- a degree in a liberal arts field that does not have any workplace recommendation. So to me, colleges have changed they are more, you go to college to get a job, and you get to go, you get into a program that your first two years are your regular stuff. But then you are really focused on being an engineer, being an architect, being a political science, but a liberal arts part of colleges has really become, you do not see history majors as much anymore, or English majors. Therefore, there are different schools.

SM: 1:17:41
Yes. That is a very good analysis, that is so true. What do you want your, go ahead.

HF: 1:17:51
No, I just, nothing.

SM: 1:17:53
What do you want your legacy to be?

HF: 1:17:58
[chuckles]

SM: 1:17:59
In your own words, what do you hope your legacy will be?

HF: 1:18:02
That my book, on Ken State is a factual and truth telling book, because I wanted people to remember, for sharing the truth about something that was so horrific, and something that should never have happened, Kent State should never have happened. Sargent Snyder gives a talk at Kent State, and I got to hear it on a podcast once. And I disagree with it completely, because during the podcast, he says, "Just before the shooting, sometime before the shootings," he said, "Somebody decided to declare what was happening at Kent State. Students at one end, National Guard another end, somebody said this is a riot. Well, it was not a riot, but the National Guard was given permission then to go up and disperse the crowd, and because they had bayonets, and stuff and weapons, they can shoot people, and Governor Rhodes gave them that permission days ago and took advantage of it." But it should never have happened. There was never a riot. Students were at one end, guards another round. It is like it is like we have learned today, take time, let things fizzle out, and oftentimes and in very tense situations. So, the best thing to do is to let things fizzle out. That should have been what happened at Kent State and there was no need for anybody to die and no need for any of the guards to be shooting or they should, they should have said at that point in time. He should have said, "We have got this under control National Guard, you may pack up and leave your bags, leave and take your bags with you." It would have been fine.

SM: 1:18:02
Yeah.

HF: 1:18:25
Nothing would have happened.

SM: 1:20:15
That is why the lack of leadership that we mentioned earlier that it was in the administration. I think one other thing is about Jackson State that happened, like about 10 days later.

HF: 1:20:26
Yep.

SM: 1:20:26
And I think Kent State is so right on the students who have been leading these remembrance events for a long time, are so ahead of America as a whole, because it was Kent State, who made sure that what happened in Jackson State is not forgotten either. And then what happens there toward African American students, and what happened at Kent State, which was predominately white students. They are all one. And even though they tried to say that the protest of Jackson State was about, about the Vietnam War, it was not about the Vietnam War, it was about racism. It was about the history of racism within that area, and Jean Jung bless his soul, came many years to campus, I met him I actually had dinner with him once when he was here on campus. And, you know, that is what Kent State should be remembered for. Also, with this tragedy is that they cared about another campus that went something, a Black college campus in Mississippi, and saw the linkage between the between the killings at their school and the killings at Kent.

HF: 1:21:46
Undeserved with very little justification, no justification [chuckles].

SM: 1:21:56
Yeah, that, you know, I am interviewing another person on that later today, or tomorrow. I guess I am just some final thing. So who do you just a general question, I got three more, and that is it. Why, who was responsible for the Vietnam War? I know we went to war, and we can blame a president. But in your view, everything has dots. The history is about dots. And when Kent State happened, there was a dot directly to it linked to a Vietnam War, and to a president. But it was something, dots go back on this too. So your thoughts, what caused, who do you blame for the Vietnam War?

HF: 1:22:40
I blame Nixon because, he did a lot of fakery stuff and stopped Johnson from ending the war. And you can read the history about that. But he, he did some things to cause the Vietnamese people to support his position and not go to peace talks as they had planned with Johnson. So, I blame him for continuing what he did.

SM: 1:23:14
Could you also kind of talk about the great things that have happened to Kent State with respect to making that, where this happen a historic spot, not only to have the Kent State Senator, which is unbelievable. But, markers being placed making sure it is it is forever remembered in terms of remembrance. And it is historic, and just everything Kent State now in terms of the administration is unbelievable. And I-I know that they have had issues over the years, but there is no question when you hear Alan Canfora say positive things about an administration and then it has got to be good. [laughter] Because he went through many years, where there was not so good. But, just your thoughts on the site where this all happened and your thoughts as a graduate of Kent State, who went through this, that this spot where it happened is forever preserved for history?

HF: 1:24:18
It has to be preserved for history because that is how we learn, and how we continue to grow. Cannot, it cannot be forgotten because we do not want to have a, it is like a T and square. It is something that should never happen again. And as long as we can remember what happened at Kent State, good chance that will not happen again.

SM: 1:24:49
What is the number one lesson of Kent State and Jackson State, the two together for future generations?

HF: 1:25:02
Communication, and communication with the right people making the right decisions. It is all about communication and getting rid of politics and getting rid of egos. It is all about solid communication between individuals and people, especially about things that matter most, like people's lives.

SM: 1:25:30
Right. And my last question is a question I have been asking now for the last 15 interviewees. Your tape will be listened to 50 years from now, long after you are gone, I am gone. And most of the boomer generation will be around either, so no one will be alive when Kent State happened. And that is the purpose of our centers to make sure that there is research and scholarship on these events. So, they are never forgotten. So what words of advice would you give to young students, faculty, national scholars who are studying this story, 50 years from now, words of advice?

HF: 1:26:24
Words of advice to those of you who are listening to this tape, years from now, is really listen, and listen to the other tapes as well. And try to understand what mistakes were made, and how important it is to be able to communicate and be a part of the process and not hide from it. And Kent State should not have happened. But, protest in this country should be allowed, not violent protest, but protest, like they were at Ken State, it was just a protest. It is part of our culture, it is part of who we are. And it will never stop. But, respect communication of what is going on and respect people's lives.

SM: 1:27:35
Very well said and I just want to say that I always ask a question, usually when I say what are the lessons learned and the lessons that cannot be lost from the (19)60s or from any of the Vietnam War, or even Kent State? You already answered that question. With one word, communication.

HF: 1:27:57
Yep.

SM: 1:27:58
You hit it right on the button. Howard, I want to thank you for this interview.

HF: 1:28:05
You might, you might consider putting a link to the oral history I gave to Kent State too.

SM: 1:28:10
I will do that. I got to deal with Binghamton University, but I will deal with that and I am going to pause the tape now. Thank you very much for the interview.

(End of Interview)

23 June 2022

Stephen McKiernan

Howard Ruffner

Howard Ruffner was born in Cleveland, Ohio. After high school, he joined the Air Force in 1965. His experience with photography started when he worked at the Air Force headquarters in Waco, Texas. After leaving the Air Force, he started college in 1969. While studying at Kent State University, Ruffner started working as a photographer for the university's student newspaper. He was a college sophomore when the shootings of May 4, 1970, occurred. He witnessed and documented this event and his photographs appeared on the cover of Life.

1:28:20

English

Binghamton University Libraries

audio/mp4

23 June 2022

Sound

Audio

Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.

Kent State shooting; Students; Pictures; National guard; Campus:  Taylor Hall; Protest; Photographs; Yearbook; Kent State University; Building; Guard; Photographer; Film; Fire.