Interview with Doug Bradley

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Douglas Bradley
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 26 October 2022
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(Start of Interview)

SM: 00:03
All right, so I am, I am going to be interviewing today with Doug Bradley, who was co-author of the book, We Gotta Get Out of This Place: The Soundtrack of the Vietnam -Vietnam War. His co-author is Dr. Craig Werner. And Doug thank you very much for doing this interview with me. And I want to start out by this quote from Marie Stir [Heather Marie Stir] from the back of your book, it is on the- your back cover. And it states here. "The diversity of voices and songs reminds us that the home front and the battlefront are always connected. And the music and the war are deeply intertwined. In reading this book, there is no better words than this. Describe it. It is unbelievable." And I, and I just want to start out by finding out I know you served in Vietnam. But could you describe your growing up years, your college years, your high school years, your parents background and your connection to music as a youngster, if you can go from there?

DB: 01:11
Sure, I would be glad to. I go from there and keep going. And I think I think you were really put your finger on it by alluding to that quote that had Marie Stir now, a scholar in your own right, a prophet, Southern Mississippi, and a former student of Craig [Craig Werner] that UW Madison, she put it so well, because you could not separate the music from the time from the memories from the people from the experience. And that is what music does. And I am sure you and I will talk a little bit more about that. Yeah, I was a member of the baby boomer generation, son of World War Two dad, inner city neighborhood I grew up with in southwest Philadelphia, was populated by inner city dads who had I mean, World War Two dads who had survived the war, won the war, saved the world from fascism. And we were ready to get on with their lives. And best way to do that was to reaffirm their existence by having kids. So, they were a bunch of us. And I could have grown up probably in any inner city anywhere in America, the wife was pretty much saying mom stayed home dad went to work. Kids played around, you know, did their own thing abroad were basically on their own. So, the mother's call was coming in for dinner. And, you know, was not bucolic. But it was it was what a lot of kids I think my age experienced in post-World War Two America. The interesting thing about my household was that my there was always music filtering through the house. And by that, I mean, my dad was a- would be crooner. I think if he had had his druthers he would have, he would have been like Frank Sinatra or Johnny Hartman. He was always singing a beautiful show tune in a lovely tenor voice that he had, my dad had a beautiful voice. And so, there was always something you know, emanating from him. And part of that was from his growing up in that era, the music was an escape for him from a tough life. He has a kid. And he found solace in it. He even for a while during World War Two after breaking his legs in jump as a paratrooper. And before being sent to Madison, Wisconsin, Brian now lives to be trained as a radio operator in the Army Air Force. He, when they were trying to figure out what to do with him, he was at a USL club in Texas, and started to sing almost every night. And because, you know, people like I was singing along to some of the shout tunes. And he did a stint there with I think it was Lionel Hampton's half-brothers, who was trying to encourage my dad to maybe think about a career postwar as-as a singer in a band. That never happened. But he always had a he always had a song and my brother on the other hand, four and a half years older than they were in Philadelphia. So, as we were growing up in the (19)50s, he was born in (19)43. He was coming of age. He was part of a whole music scene in Philadelphia. And Stan do watch street corner groups white and black, you know, often, you know, the some of the early groups that the Crests, Del-Vikings, like some of the guys my brothers saying that were mixed in terms of race integration, that was the music nothing music does to us and forth. And he was always coming up with a lyric or a song. To cool to go on bandstand, they I thought they were better than bandstands. So, they went to the, to the Police Athletic League dances there were Danny & the Juniors and Bobby Rydell and Frankie Avalon and Fabian would show up and sing their song. So, you know, there is, so there is that music. My mom is sort of playing opera when she can from her Albanian parents, you know, who were big on Verdi and Mazzetti. And so, you know, you just always had music around the household but, and then for me and my brother, we started to buy 45 records with our allowance, because we had our music started to begin to define us, Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, were not my parents’ music, or my grandparent’s music. They were ours. And they will begin to differentiate us and distinguish us as a music generation. And, you know, I went to I did six years in parochial school and Philadelphia and my dad got a transfer in a job that he had selling, Maxwell House food, coffee, and two years in Youngstown, Ohio, and then four years in Pittsburgh, where I went to high school, registered for selective service when I turned 18 in Pittsburgh, went to Thomas Jefferson High School, which was right outside of Claritin, PA, where the big steelworks were and the middle managers of US Steel did not want their kids growing up with the guys that did all the grunt work. So, they made basically made a village up the hill from Claritin called Pleasant Hills. Sounds like you know, a typical American playing the city on the hill. So, their kids could go to school with other white kids and not and not deal with the people that worked. The day laborers that worked in the steel mills that three shifts a day with steel was booming in America. By came of age, their music, again, so much a part of the light, you know, great DJs you know, great playlists, everybody had the same top 20, you listen to the same music, we all did his generation who was AM radio before it was FM. And so, we all had the same soundtrack. And we sang along the same music when the Beatles came, you know, we had the best of Motown the best of the British invasion, the best the country, and they all sort of spoke to each other and played with each other. So, it was a great time to be growing up. We had this great record collection, every bit of [inaudible] and since we were kids and Philadelphia. So, I got the play, I was a designated DJ for sock, hops and dances, made a little money. But always again, you know, buying a new record listening to a new record trying to describe a new sound, you know, turning on audiences to music, could not sing a lyric did not play an instrument. But again, using music as a way to sort of, you know, not only survive, but to define who I was, and what I thought my generation wanted to listen to. And that parlayed into college. I know as a kid raised a Catholic, I had aspirations of Notre Dame where I got accepted but could not afford it. I applied to a couple other big-name schools that great grades as a good college and a good high school student. But I did not have the money. My you know, my parents that I had instilled in my brother and I mainly my mom, that she wanted us to get an education and to take education seriously and go to college. There we were first generation my brother went to California State University in California, PA, not in California, California, and became a very successful chemistry teacher for 35 years in the Philadelphia area. And I was an English major at Bethany College where I got a scholarship and a loan and a work commitment became a BMOC. And while I was at Bethany, I became social chairman. And in a time when we had a we had a nice allotment from students SEC fees for entertainment. And we had a co-co-chair for a while and then I pretty much ran it myself for two and a half years. We were dealing directly with the agencies and getting right to the talent who wanted money upfront and wanted, you know, things provided like a sound system and light system, both of which we had purchased that were top notch run by good student workers. So, over the course of from 1967, we got elected and our platform we ran on was- we were going to bring smoking and miracles to campus. And we won the election in February and smoking and miracles appeared in March.

SM: 09:38
Wow.

DB: 09:39
And from there we had 18 other amazing groups over the course of two and a half years. Everything from the Iron Butterfly, the Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee to Josh White Jr. to Ian and Sylvia [Tyson] to Spanky and Our Gang to the 5th Dimension to the Association. I mean, just about everybody that had a number one record- at the time Jefferson Airplane, to Surrealistic Pillow, Somebody to Love was at the top of the charts. And we had them at Bethany College. So, it was a, it was just a great stretch. And of course, it got me. It was funny, a couple of the people that are working with guys in New York that work for the agencies and these groups directly said to me, you know, would you be interested in getting into this business? Well, the problem was, there was the other business going on. You know, when I register for selective service, I was classified student deferment to S, meaning as I was making my way progressing through college, making my grades, I was not going to get drafted. Now, before 1968, I graduated in (19)69. Before (19)68, you could keep your deferment through graduate school. So, if I was going to go to law school, which I was going to when I was accepted, at Boston University, I could have kept my deferment. If I say I had graduated from college in 1967. I graduated college in May (19)69. And I graduated May by June, they changed my classification to one A, which basically meant come and get me, Uncle Sam I am yours. And, you know, again, life took a strange turn for me. I tried all that summer to figure out what my options were. Could I you know, conscience objection. No, at that point, I had to be a Quaker, a Jehovah's Witness. Do I go to Canada? Do I go to jail? I mean, what the hell do I do? I mean, this was the decision that frankly, every nail of our generation had to confront at some point, Donald Trump had to confront it five times. He got five deferments.

SM: 10:02
Wow. Right.

DB: 10:44
And that we know what that means is that five other people went in his place. [chuckles] Five other people got drafted as Donald Trump did. But, you know, we they had to make their numbers. And then they needed people to go and basically need to combat troops. And so here I am deciding well, I will take my chances with the draft. And I passed my physical, did not go to law school. And I was going to be drafted in November of 1969. Nixon and who had won the presidency with the previous November with a secret plan to win the war. started the program called Vietnamization, which basically was turning the ground war in Vietnam over to the South Vietnamese army. But escalating the air war. We dropped more tonnage in-in North Vietnam than all of off World War One and World War Two combined. We bombed that country, basically into obliteration, still did not get the result we wanted. But that was that was the plan, bring them to the negotiating table because of the Koreans from the air. But the South Vietnamese die on the ground, but our support, but not our guys dying. And but we still had 400,000 troops in Vietnam, and they needed guys to fight. If I had not gone in the army in November, I probably would not be having this conversation with you right now. What happened for me, it was luck, fate, chance, intervene, Nixon to show Vietnamization was a good thing; it was going to work, canceled November, December draft calls, and set up what he thought was a fair system, which was the lottery, and a lot fairer than, you know, draft boards that could do things at their own will or somebody like you, was mainly staffed by a lot of World War Two vets. And if somebody did not like you, or they thought, you were a bad kid, or they, they wanted to get you out of the community, [laughter] you know, they had that kind of authority. Well, now you have a lottery, and everybody from 18 to 25 has a birthday. All 356 have been thrown into the canister, and they pull out the days, and maybe days and dates. And the day after my birthday was 366. My birthday was 85. But that still gave me even instead of going in November of (19)69, I am going in in March of (19)70, that four or five months there is absolutely critical because we were bringing more troops home, trying to make the Vietnamization work. We were not replacing a lot of the combat troops or some of the rear soldiers. Basically, I think saved my life. But I get in the army. I am at Fort Dix, New Jersey, March 2, 1970. And they align my skills as a writer, journalist, English major, with what a military occupation could be. Because one of the things you need to remember about Vietnam, and I think any conversation you have with any Vietnam vet is what we call the three W's when you were there, where you were, and what you did, that has that basically, essentially, is what defines your experience. So, I am there now (19)70 I saw March, I am drafted and make me an information is a specialist in the army three out of basic, I go to the Army Hometown News Center in Kansas City, which only writes good news but great job. I am not on an army base. I am living in Kansas City. So, I got a great cushy job right out of basic to begin with. Then unfortunately, for computer in Washington says, we need guys like Bradley in Vietnam, and realize this, you are not going over his units. I am not with the guys I was in my platoon with in basic, I did not go to advanced training. There is one thing about Vietnam, that the numbers you went over alone and you came home alone, not unlike the current wars, where you went over as units and stayed together and had that sort of connection and camaraderie. We went over one at a time and came home one at a time, in many ways. So, by October, I am told I am going to Vietnam in November, and then I get there November 1970. And I was there for 365 days told mentors were only 13 months for Marines. And, but if it is true worn out in the rear, I am an Army journalist. I go out and cover stories. I am a combat correspondent as well. But I am editing a paper ready for a magazine, writing memos for the generals living in the air-conditioned jungle. You know, really out of danger. I mean, there was no real safe place in Vietnam because of the kind of war it was. But I am in a bad a safer place as you can be. long been, you know, South Vietnam largest army base in the world at that point. 35,000 soldiers 50 miles northeast of Saigon. I am going into Saigon once or twice a week to work on the paper and have it printed or pick it up from stars and stripes. I have got about as good a job as anybody getting drafted to get

SM: 16:46
And you were there with air conditioning too, right?

DB: 16:50
We did not have it in the [inaudible] and guard duty or-

SM: 16:52
Right. Right.

DB: 16:52
-anywhere else. But the generals, the brass wanted it and I worked for the brass. So yeah, that is why we-we did not mind doing 12-hour days because you know, you were you were nice and cool and comfortable. And I hate to say that and sound like I am being callous or less concerned about what my brothers had to deal with in combat, because a lot of them did not make it home a lot. Even after Vietnamization, you know, about 25,000 more of my compadres died in Vietnam, during the Nixon years. So, it was not it was not all, you know, comfort like it was for me. But this is part of what the dynamic the army was dealing with. I mean, then you had you had people who were not, you know, would have been could have been hippies, but at least maybe part of the anti-war movement in the service, you know, they got drafted. So, it was a, it was a real mix of ideologies and perceptions. And, frankly, I think it made for a better army in terms of people questioning orders, or-

SM: 18:05
Right.

DB: 18:05
-directions or commitments, and meeting people of a variety of different backgrounds. And but yeah, it was a you know, I was just lucky to make it through those wild months relatively intact, and to keep our job was to keep the morale up, but the guys are doing the fight and die. So, we reported that we were killing more of them than they were killing of us, which was true, it become a war of attrition, not a great way to fight a war. But that is what we were doing, that we were winning the hearts and minds of Vietnamese people. We knew that by going into by talking to the Vietnamese or worked in our base or going into Saigon a couple of times. I knew that was happening, but that is what we reported. And the way to boost our morale, to keep up their morale was to give us creature comforts. So, you know, you are- I am in an air-conditioned jungle here. I have got music at my disposal, live radio, reel to reel tape, text cassette, you know, get asked to come to the James Brown comes Vietnam, Johnny Cash comes to Vietnam, Nancy Sinatra comes to Vietnam. So, you know, point being, they understood, I will give them credit for this that the military understood some of what the generation they were dealing with. They did not know that music was important to us. And if they could give us access to music and other creature comforts, you know, to keep us, you know, motivated in the rear. Then we were going to do our job of trying to motivate the guys were out in the field and doing the heavy lifting.

SM: 19:42
Now, where are you? Where were you located when you were there?

DB: 19:46
I was in Long Binh which was a former rubber plantation, about 15, 20 miles northeast of Saigon. So, I am in what they call three cores. And, you know, they called us REMFs, rear-echelon motherfuckers, you know, we were, we were guys that were in the rear, and we had not cushy because to me realized that if they were to keep this generation still fighting this war, they had to give us creature comforts. Now realize, Steven, the dynamic is that the rule is for about every soldier in the field, there are six or maybe more people supporting him or and now her. So, combat soldier needs, you know, an officer to give them orders, but they also need somebody to make their uniforms, provide their equipment, I mean their weapons, to give area support, to do their food, you know, et cetera, et cetera, write the stories. So, there were more people in the rear of Vietnam than there were in the field. Over the course of that the 3 million that is served from (19)64 to (19)75. About 500,000 combat troops and 202 point 5 million support troops, not the lesson the danger and-and how, you know, I mean, being killed, be killed situations is the-the ultimate, but if there were numbers of us who were having maybe a different experience and a different war, because we were supporting them and we were still having the waters and get our hair pack and watch them light up our mustaches and not wear love beads or give the peace sign, you know. Because some of these guys like me, were getting drafted, you know, a third of the army were draftees. So about 10 million people that served in that era during the Vietnam era, and not everybody of course, was in Vietnam, only 3 million, but you know [inaudible] large percentage of people draft eligible served a third for draftees. Another third, were guys who knew they were going to get drafted. And so, they enlisted. And then the other third were, you know, people who believe in the cause and signed up to do their duty. But that makes for a different mix. And you have people like me who has been at protests, and had some questions and misgivings about the war in the military. It made for a different dynamic than I would say an all-volunteer army does.

SM: 22:26
Couple of questions I like to ask you is your general questions not related to the book? I would like to just your general thoughts on your generation, the boomer generation, we know, it was one of the big it was, at the time, the biggest generation in American history. But a lot has been written about the generation in terms of whether it was a positive or a negative generation. I would like your thoughts on what it is like being a Boomer and the positives and negatives of your generation as you think about the past.

DB: 22:58
Great question requesting never take not just a lot of thought, but a lot of time, I think to begin to unravel. I would say at the time, when I was growing up, and you know, I am now I am, I am old to be in the Army. I am 22 when I am drafted. And, you know, I wonder, by the time I am home, I was 24. You know, most of the guys that I was in basic training with were 19, 20 years old. And so I was a little older, and I had a college experience. But from where I said, first sitting in college and watching what was going on in the world around me. I felt like people were trying to keep me from getting killed. So I had, I had no problems with the anti-war movement, because I did not think war was good for people. And I did not think it was going to be very good for me, should I have to confront it? So I felt a connection. And I think an optimism about what people were doing. They were not sitting necessarily comfortably, because a lot of folks in that generation for a lot more comfortable than I was growing up. And but they cared about something larger than themselves. It was it was peace. It was justice [inaudible] equality. And that was admirable. And I felt there was at that time, and energy, and just the motivation and the dynamic to our generation. That was that was positive. And I think in some ways it helped to shorten the war. I think in some ways it helps to bring about civil rights. It would be not as quickly or as peacefully as possible, I think started to get better acquainted with sexual orientation issues with sexism. So, at the time, I thought, like, you know, hey, you know, if I am going to live to be 30 people that sort of doubted that the way we had the division in the demographics, and like you said, we were the- we were the elephant in the room. I was helpful, even, even in the dark days of Vietnam, I was hopeful. Things change, you know, and I, you know, it is just interesting to see how, when you think of the forces that were played, and because, you know, I was, you know, I mean, that was my own opinion, I was sitting in my own. But making my own observations have my own experience. There were a lot of folks who were, you know, had a different view of America, and, and exceptionalism and who we were and what we were doing in Vietnam was the right thing to do, etc. And so a couple of things I am going to probably digress, and I will try and really get back to the question and bring it today, in 2022. I think Vietnam was America's second civil war. We, as we know, from things that are going on, in the wake of George Floyd, Black Lives Matter, etc., we are still fighting that war. In many ways, the divisions in the country have not totally healed, famous Vietnam, country was divided. People never came back together. Vietnam vets in many ways with that, folks, that became scapegoats for all that in terms of what went wrong and what went down and Vietnam. And that is, that is a wound that we have not healed either. I think now, we are getting to a place where, you know, who knows, maybe we are not, maybe we are having our third civil war right now. It is quite possible. But like I said, I had hope. And there was, there was some optimism, I get back here. And I just felt like, people were sort of, you know, lackadaisical about what was going on a Vietnam with guys like me, we are dealing with what was going to happen to the country, you know, in the year, then and beyond. And we started to reinvent exactly what happened. And first we escaped go to Tibet, and just said, yeah, we can close this chapter and move on. And these guys, they were not good soldiers. They did horrible things, you know, et cetera, kind of coward, we had me lie. And then I think it just sort of became, yeah, we had the Vietnam syndrome, we were not going to do this again. And then Reagan, and his folks decided to reinvent it, there was a noble cause. We put up the memorial, which is in wonderful thing, the most moving more Memorial, I think, anywhere in the world. But my point is that we, we allowed Vietnam did become rather than, you know, sort of complex and complicated and diverse, still needed to be understood to have dialogue to get some kind of understanding and maybe healing. It was sort of like, it was black and white. There were these people, these, you know, crazy vets and these anti-war nut jobs and non-un-American, and then we had the good people of America, who supported the soldiers and supported the war, believed in God and country, in the city on the hill. And, you know, that is sort of stuck in terms of, you know, reinventing what happened. Meanwhile, you know, as the generation I think we sort of lost track in terms of what we were trying to accomplish. I know for me, you know, you, you got to get a job, you, you if you have a family in need to take care of them. And we sort of went, you know, got focused in on that, and, I think got a little away from at least the stuff that I thought was motivating and stimulating us during the, during the war years. And now, I would say in one, I think as a generation, for not being more vigilant and diligent for not, I think, leaving our kids and our grandkids with a better legacy. We, in many ways, we have we have bear some responsibility for the mess that things are in. And yeah, let us- I would have hoped we would have prevented that. But I got to say, you know, we have done our share, I think to mess things up. And we still got some time maybe to see if we can undo some of that.

SM: 30:12
Hey, did you put on the Vietnam Memorial when it opened in (19)82?

DB: 30:17
I could not get there. Then I had a, I had a very precocious and busy two-year-old, I was a stay at home dad, when it was not before it was, you know, kind of cool and acceptable. But my wife was, with an attorney, she had a law degree was way more marketable than I was. So when, when our kids when our daughter was born, she went back to work before I did. So I was there working on, you know, not on, we got to get as place but another a couple other pieces I have written about Vietnam, thinking I was going to write the great American novel, or be the, you know, be Tim O'Brien. And so I could not get there in (19)82 to I had some friends who went, and I got there. First time I got there was (19)84. And I made many-many-many trips back to DC. I was just there to give a talk, VA, one of the units in the VA for their annual conference in June, and I went again, and I always find the name of the only soldier in our office, the Information Officer at UCB headquarters who was killed in Vietnam, guy named Steve Warner, who fancied himself Vietnam model of Ernie Pyle the World War Two, great World War Two combat correspondent. And when we invaded people forget after this, of all the ruckus, that there was an there was a lot of it about invading Cambodia. We did the same thing in Laos, in February of 1971. And Steve went up from our office covered the story, stepped on a landmine and was killed. And so I-I visit his name and do a rubbing, every time I am there when I go, and frankly, it is a- it is a wife wish, wishing the last year was a great kid.

SM: 32:23
Right. Leadership or lack thereof, often defines the periods we live in during our lives. Now, the boomer is going to look at form for excuse me, five men who ruled this nation back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And that is Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon and Ford. When you listen to the music, and when any of your- the people that you interviewed listen to the music, did you think of these men?

DB: 32:57
That is a great question. I do. But maybe it is because I put a historical overview into-into that context. When we were, when we had to sit by me, we were finishing the book. And we, I think what prompted us to finally get done and stop interviewing people was have we realized that some of the folks we had interviewed early on because of exposure to Agent Orange and everything else were dying. So we said we got to get the book out. And we wanted, we wanted to get as big an audience to this as we could. And Craig had had a couple of books published. And he has got a wonderful, yeah, he has done a number of incredible things. But he did, he wrote a book called A Change is Going to Come about Music in America. And so he had an agent, and we-we talked to his agent, the guy at that point was not willing to take us on. So we made some other contacts. And we were, we had an agent in New York, because we want to have this mass market publication. We wanted people to hear the story. And she took it to 20 or 25, publishing houses, and none of them wanted to do this. So we were- gave the book back to us. We went to a university press and they took it in a heartbeat. And of course, it became Rolling Stones, best music book of 2015. But when we were doing that rewrite for UMass Press, and we were we were connecting things somatically in terms of experiences, they said, you know, why do not you do it historically. And start with sort of the, the Utopia the JFK's war, and LBJ's war, and then Nixon's war, and that sort of work. And so, when you mentioned that, I mean, for me and my generation, you could not-not think of JFK and LBJ and Nixon because their decisions influenced and affected our lives in in humongous ways. So I, you know, I think of them. When I when I hear about the Green Berets, which, you know, Barry Sadler wrote, when he was listening to Robert Kennedy dedicate Greenbrae memorial at Fort Bragg, and was being renamed for his brother. So, you know, you hear the songs, you know, Lyndon Johnson told the nation for waist deep in the Big Muddy, you could not-not think of them and then Ohio, and soldiers Nixon coming. So the music, for me, is always connected to those events in those people. But it is also, you know, the music itself is reflective of, of those forces in those dynamics.

SM: 35:59
You use this, the animal song we got to get out of this place is the number one song for Vietnam vets. How did you come to that decision that that was the number one song.

DB: 36:12
But you know, part of it was that when there were occasionally things, yeah, this is before the internet. And before people got the end of that told you, you know, a lot of Vietnam vets just forgot about Vietnam and went on as best they could with their lives. Of course, many of them could not and did not. But when there were any reunions or get togethers that was a song that was played a lot. And when I thought back to that, I remembered that when we went to an EM club, and again, I am telling you, I am in the rear. So we were getting creature comforts, we have, you know, FM radio 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you know, some good DJs you know, like Adrian Cronouer, and some not so good DJs, but at least you got music, we had reel-reel [inaudible] we had cassette [inaudible], you know, we had music, we had live band in the clubs, you know, Filipino, Korean and Vietnamese could barely speak a word of English, but to get the newest playlist, and they have to play this time. So almost like the last song of the evening, they would play that. And I think it was, you know, the way our tours work was- we did not go over as units, we went over a load, and Marines has 13 months to work. And army had 12 months. So I knew when I got there, that I had the I was lucky enough, you know, to survive, that 365 days later, I was going to get out of Vietnam. So that notion of getting out of that place. But as you remember, for me, at that point, you know, we were leaving, we were turning the ground. Moreover, you know, we were not going to fight the victory we were going to depart. We were going to exit. And so it was just that notion of getting out of there. The lyrics just spoke to that great song, too. And, and then I started noticing it was being played reunions. And not all the guys we interviewed said that, you know, depending on the time you were there, where you were, when you were there, and what you did, your whole experience is different. So there is 3 million Vietnam stories, but more often than not, you know, folks from, you know, across the panoply of all the folks that we interviewed and get this in the book, that was a song that kept coming up and coming up coming up. And the reunions, I have been to the places where I have spoken. And we presented, that is the song that just sort of, you know, seems to capture that era that time and-and what the experience was-

SM: 38:57
As you have made reference to, you know, the music was divided into different eras by years. And I am going to talk about first the chapter on Hello, Vietnam, that period from (19)61, to say, (19)65, before the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. And now, you make really good reference to President Kennedy in this section, because it is about the fact that he gave that historic speech as not what you can do as what you can do for your country. And a lot of the reasons why alarmed the young men and women are joining the military was to serve their nation and give back to your country. And so that is a lot different later on in the war when drafted place. But could you talk a little bit about the people you interviewed or some anecdotes from that period of, you know, some of the songs that were very important that-that ring out in that era?

DB: 39:52
Well, I think you put your finger on it. I mean, you know, this dynamic young president yeah, the-the Cold War was hot. And, you know, the-the discourage. You know that that was facing us, like Baghdad's fake fascism from the Germans and the Japanese, it was communism. And we thought, you know, they were coming after us. So, you know, this, it drove into this whole thing with, you know, our dad fought in World War Two did their duty, one war save the world. So now was our turn. And I think a lot of the folks in the cohort to that generation, maybe more my brother's age a little bit older, to saw that as a call. Yeah. I mean, you know, if I got to stand up for something, I am going to do it because that is what that is what Americans do. And, you know, that was reflected a lot in the music. I mean, there was the early stuff that even referenced Vietnam. War songs, like Distant Drums by Jim Reeves. And it is, it is a lot of country songs. You know, Dear Uncle Sam, Loretta Lynn. And it was, it was very reflective Mr. Lonely, Bobby-Bobby Vinton. soldiers, doing their duty but away from home, like soldiers are their home sick and lonesome. And the people at home pining for them and hoping they get back. I mean, it was not, it was not political at the time. And then, as we started to find out more about Vietnam, and you have got Barry McGuire coming on the eve of destruction, and people are getting banned in some stations, and people are saying, what is that, and you know, he always only always that one line in there, the Eastern world is exploding the reference to Vietnam. But, you know, people, you know, the attitude started to change so early, it was, you know, maybe it is like God, love and, you know, apple pie and country. And that began to change, the more people got to understand maybe what was going on the [inaudible], and some of the folk music started to turn very political. You have had things like, you know, Lyndon Johnson told the nation, and Draft Dodger Rag, some of the Dylan music. But you know, it was all there. I mean, we got it all. I mean, even if you were not filtering it through any kind of political, or, you know, military, industrial, you know, context. It was the mus- it was our music, and we knew who Bob Dylan was, we knew who Loretta Lynn was, you know, we knew who Jim Reeves was, we knew. And, you know, who, you know, all the artists were Johnny Cash. I mean, the music was, was exceptionally good. Coming, you know, from all around the world. And it spoke to us whether or not it had a political overlay. And the further you get into our generation, the more pronounced it becomes, in terms of, you know, how vital it was the- our identity.

SM: 43:08
You know, it is interesting in that, in that era of John Kennedy, a singer that always comes to mind when he was Lesley Gore, she kept singing all those songs, it was always about boyfriends, girlfriends, dating, love affairs, like, nothing real serious, it was all it was a different era. And then things changed in (19)64, (19)65, with a rival the Beatles, and the Rolling Stones, and, you know, the Turtles and all these other groups. And then, and that is LBJ, and then you get into Nixon, and then you get to psychedelic music, which is, you know, the [inaudible] well, a lot of the groups from them from the Grateful Dead and-and one of the groups that I did not hear in your was Uriah Heep. I do not know if you ever heard of them.

DB: 43:59
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SM: 44:00
They were, they were very popular at that time, as were Sugarloaf and the Raspberries and that particular group. So though there was some I was I was actually trying to find songs in the back there that you did not do. But-

DB: 44:15
Yeah, well, I and again, you know, as we said, you know, we, at one point, we started out thinking we were going to do a Vietnam that is top 20. And we thought we knew what the top 20 was going to be. And then when we started the, you know, the interviews, we realized that to be a top 200 to 2000, because everybody had their song, you know, you mentioned Leslie Gore. You know, one of the guys we interviewed, you know, and silence was in the field you were always talking about music and where people heard and what they associated with, you know, you had to have silence in the field. So if you were a marine or an army grunt yeah, you were not hearing music, but he had, you know, what was that? Lollipops, and Icicles some [crosstalk]

SM: 44:16
Yes-yes.

DB: 44:31
[inaudible] Lesley Gore song bounces to say, that was out in the field. He was trying to get it out of attention to it and concentrate. But yeah, you know, we could have had if we did this if we get if we interviewed another four or 500 vets, even some of the folks that have come to our presentations over the years, there is a there is a new song. I remember Chuck Hagel, you have the Secretary of Defense, decorated, he and his two brother Tom, between them at five Purple Hearts. I mean, these guys knew what they were doing. And, you know, when-when I interviewed did a presentation for a symposium that Hagel put on at University of Nebraska. He said his song was, it is a strange, strange world. We live in Master Jack. Oh, yeah. And I was like, wow, you know, that never came up from anybody. But of course, they went back. And we played it for him that night, we were giving the presentation. It was by an Australian group called 4 Jacks and a Jill. And, but for some reason, that song [inaudible]. And so like you said, somebody, you know, we, you know, said that you are right heap of sugar loaf, you know, did it for them? It is, it is again, you know, you know, there are all the voices that are in the book, there is an equal number that just did not make the cut, because of the way the editing and the flow that putting it together. And then there is another whole universe of people who, like I said, who either were there or were not there, but they listen, you know, that have a different song. Every it is a crazy thing. And I think it became even-even more pronounced with-with COVID how music for people was a sanctuary someplace they went. I mean, it was the cry, but was the hope is always the pray. It was the band. But, and that is what it did for us in Vietnam. I mean, we were holding on sometimes by threat, what was good, what the hell was going to happen? Not just the US in Vietnam, but to the country. And there was there was somebody saying something, you know, if it was, come on people, you know, smile on your brother, everybody get together? Got to have one. I mean, whatever it was. And, boy, that is the power of music. And I think that is why not only is this is this book, good in that way. But I think it is because certain music does for us as human beings.

SM: 47:45
Right? You, you beautifully put it in, there is talking about the Gulf of Tonkin, (19)64. Now, obviously, you know, that is after Kennedy has been assassinated. But it really is an important period, not only a break in the music, by the breaking what is happening in America, in terms of protests and all the other things, there was protests even early on, in the anti-nuke groups, anti-war groups, even before Kennedy was assassinated, but still, that Gulf of Tonkin, did you put that in? Did you just kind of that was kind of a surprise, when Johnson did that, in that course, we think it was not truthful, to begin with.

DB: 48:28
Yeah, well, I think just, you know, I think John would probably [inaudible] day that things happened the way they did, because, you know, I mean, when you think of all the amazing things he accomplished, in the course of his presidency, but, you know, he is always going to be, you know, aligned with the, you know, with them, the escalation of that debacle. But, you know, yeah, I mean, we were looking for an excuse. I mean, and it is this whole thing of what every president from Truman on, was grappling with, and that was, you know, we could not be soft on communism, they want to take over the world, we had no idea you know, I mean, Truman should have known because he man wrote him a letter-

SM: 49:18
Right.

DB: 49:19
- quoting from our own Constitution and Declaration of Independence, that a communist is not a communist is not a communist, you know, that. You know, people have different views and-and-and different principles and values that we saw monolithic communism is this thing you stop? And I think we were just looking for I mean, yeah, and you know, all the stuff we did, you know, I mean, we, our record is pretty scurrilous, if you look back at the (19)50s, you know, and Iran and the Dominican Republic and Panama, and other places around the world. So, we were, we were doing what we could do to-to be habit our way and Vietnam became this place where, you know, hey, be out there, they were going to try and take over the country. And it was going to be horrible for us. And you know, that goes to all Southeast Asia and that whole domino theory, which was nonsense, but it is sort of culminated there. And, as we know, late react from the history. It was not what it was. But it was an excuse to do something that we thought needs to be done. And of course, it turned out to be one of the ugliest chapters in our history.

SM: 50:35
You know, Vietnam vets are very sensitive about the eras that they have served in Vietnam. And I think the one book that came out, really emphasizing this was Phil Caputo's, book, Rumor War. He loved that he was there in (19)65. And he was very sensitive at the time with all the books are being written later in the later on after the war, about everything was (19)67 to (19)71. Well, he said, I was there in 1965. And we were out in the bush, and we could have been killed at any time. And people were dying at that time now in larger numbers, but, and of course, that is the Battle of la Drang Valley, (19)65 and Rolling Thunder and killing of Vietnamese. So there is some truth on how you break it down here, kind of the quietness of the early (19)60s, and then all of a sudden, the Gulf of Tonkin, we were more involved in a war now. And, and then, of course, you have got an author like Phil Caputo, a Vietnam vet, making these kinds of comments. And, of course, we were soldiers, ones by Joe Galloway, and emphasizing what happened at the la Drang Valley in (19)65. So you are right, in tune with the music in terms of some of these [crosstalk] events.

DB: 51:49
When I think your point is a [inaudible], and that is that, we always say, really talking about the three W's and we have mentioned that in the book, when you were there, where you were, and what you did, you know, [inaudible] Caputo, you know, you know, combat (19)65 Doug Bradley, in the rear, you know, you know, information specialist, (19)70 and (19)71. And all the 3 million in between, I mean, really, no two stories are alike. And, and I think you no filter. And I think what we need to say we you know, we all answered the same call. We all took the same pledge. And but, you know, it worked it-it manifested itself in different ways. And our lives were forever change. And then what we did with that, once we were back is of course the rest of the story. And but yeah, I think trying to generalize and say well, you know, Vietnam was this a Vietnam was that it diminished. You know, Phil Caputo, from the Doug Bradley from the Tim O’Brien from the Glory Emerson's from, you know, everybody in the Francis Fitzgerald. I mean, there is, you know, there is just a lot to be said, and I think we need to understand that all those experiences are valid. And, and that we there is something to be learned from every one of those. This is-

SM: 53:26
Very important in your book, and that is, can you discuss the importance of all types of music and how the word diversity applies to not only those Americans who served in the war, but the types of music they loved and listened to?

DB: 53:47
Yeah, and I, you know, that was, that was one of the things that really struck me, in fact, I just had a conversation yesterday with one of the guides, as mentioned the book guide, Melvin Lapesca, who grew up in rural Wisconsin on a farm and he said, they listened to polka, and, you know, his idea of, you know, music was polka music. And he ended up in Vietnam, a medic and a unit that is, you know, half African American, and, and, you know, guys from all over the country, and he starts, he starts listening to the Hendrix and the Chamber's Brothers and the Mamas and the Papas, and his world is turned upside down. And he said that he never would have had that experience and never would have been introduced to those other not only musical cultures, but you know, distinct cultures, you know, African American or, or creole or, you know, Latino from the West Coast if he had not been there and been in the army. And the wonderful thing was on the one hand, that music did a lot to bring us all together and to open up. I am not a country music guy I got through appreciate country music a little bit more, because of the guys that was serving way does not mean I am going to, I am going to like Detroit City by Bobby Bear, I am tired of hearing that song, but it got played all the time. And on the other hand, because of who we are, and the way we were built and, and, and how we function, music at times, would be something that would, you know, be disruptive and would create disharmony. And we have stories in the book to have racism of, you know, of fights over songs on the jukebox, so that cover bands are playing. So, you know, this is the dynamic you are dealing with, and we are still dealing with it, you know, people getting along or not getting along. out in the field, everybody, I think pretty much together combined, does not matter what color you are, back in the rear, a little different. And you know, you got to blow off steam, and maybe you have a little too much to drink or smoke. And it is something he goes out. But I would say more often than not, and on the more positive ledger, you know, the music found ways to connect us to one another, and to introduce us to different aspects of people's lives and their feelings in ways that we probably would not have had happened-

SM: 56:25
Yet. And it is so true, because you get having an appreciation for another person's music, beyond the music that you love, is so important about trying to understand people. And getting along. It is, as you bring it up, music, oftentimes over and over was one of the most important things in terms of healing Vietnam veterans from the war,

DB: 56:51
Yep-yep.

SM: 56:52
Because they identified the music now this could you were entering into this, because this might have may even help what is going on today in our society is having-having an appreciation for another person's religion having an appreciation for other person's paper musically that you do not usually listen to. That is, that is a real positive from the Vietnam War in terms of, even though there was racism going on, and division and everything else like was happening in America at that time. It is the fact that this was one little thing that could bring people together was music. And it can help him healing.

DB: 57:28
Yeah, no, it is true. And you know, the-the amazing thing is that this, the science now is showing how that works, you know that they are able to do brain scans. And they know that where memory and music reside in the hippocampus, and wherever it is, that they are right next to each other. So that is why somebody like Tony Bennett, who has Alzheimer's and does not know, could not recognize his wife, some days, his pianist will come in, and he will do a 90-minute set, front and back. And then things go on again. They are finding incredible things for Alzheimer's and dementia patients. But I think it is this notion of, you know, we know that some music has this validity, with memory and connection. But then as they start to look at this, they realize it is not just a morale boost, but it can relieve pain, and it can promote healing. And that is the hospitals some places were doing that during COVID. And I could not agree with you more, and I thank you. I mean, that was the greatest music ever. And it is never going to happen again. Because music was not just a commodity it was, it was art give its expression. It was experience, poetry. But I still think music has that capacity and puts all this music available now, you and our students used to come into our class. Some of them were born in the late 1990s, early 2000s. But they knew the music, they know the Doors they know Hendrix they know the Beatles, they know CCR, they know the Supremes, they know Haggard, they know Cash, they know everybody because they can listen to it all. And it was great and take their connection to that awareness of a song to a veteran's experience, and then maybe explain a little bit about the era and war. Music and music is a wonderful way to do that. I could not agree more with what you said. And I just wish we could practice it for I mean, if I mean I have not listened to it, but if Taylor Swift's new album is-is speaking about things that are universal, and people could let us listen to her, you know. I will listen to Kanye West anymore. I am sorry, but my kids did when he was you know, I remember you know, when-when he was coming on the scene and they you know, they were fascinated with him and his message Late Registration; they used to play that song, I got tired to hear it. But and I could not understand some lyrics but they were telling me what he was talking about. You know, we, we need to find ways to bring people together. And I think music is one of the best ways to do that. That is what I think still with our presentations, man know the audiences are self-selecting. But you know, we will have next year we will have antiwar folk, some anti-war movement from that era. But modern-day soldiers will have kids and spouses and all, and use it as a tendency to just calm everybody down to get respectful there in the moment, not judgmental. At God. I mean, do not we need that?

SM: 59:38
Yes-yes. We do. I think that the section we talked about the Nixon year is very important to I have read enough books to on Vietnam to see that when they start talking, they generalize about all Vietnam veterans, it really upsets me because they talk about, you know, a lot of the veterans well- a lot of work, or maybe the majority were welcomed when they came home. And certainly, the Wall was the first time many people felt that they were welcomed in 1982 as a group in Washington, but that period during Nixon was certainly a very troubling time. I know the music kind of expressed it via the Grateful Dead and Creedence Clearwater and Grand Funk Railroad, the Doors those groups, they kind of it was, it was great music but because see attention within the music, the Grateful Dead performed here at Binghamton University, and on May 2 of 1970, two days before Kent State. And one of the commentaries in the newspaper was that the Grateful Dead considered this one of their five greatest concerts ever. And secondly, you could see the tension in the audience and in the music on stage, but Vietnam [inaudible] you bring it up about the-the increasing on drugs. The certainly protests were at their all-time high Black Power was coming in debt changing, challenging, deprecate philosophy and non-violence. And there is a lot of fragging going on. So this is in the music, you can see it in the music. Can you talk a little bit about that latter part of the (19)60s and early (19)70s when this was happening?

DB: 1:02:17
Yeah. And if we got something to catch up on, after I say that I had sent you an email earlier, we are in the process of moving and I need to meet with some of the movers here in a little while. So I will answer that. And I will be glad to talk again, as you can tell, I like to talk at any time about anything else you want to cover. But I think, you know, pick a cacophony of not only the musical sound, but of the social turmoil, all got all caught up in that era out whether or not that would happen, regardless of Cambodia invasion and Kent State, who knows, but I think it was building toward that. And as you put it, and you know, even-even with the debt, who did not come up a lot in conversations with that-that we talked to, they were guys from the coast, of course, we talk about them a lot. But, you know, that was the sound that was particular to a place and a time. And people had not gotten as much I think into being deadheads, at least the folks that we talked to in the book, but the music represented this thing, you know, that it was sort of a tipping point. And where was all this going to go? Guys like Hendrix, if you listen, and he has got a song called Machine Gun. You know, that. I mean, and if you listen to his Woodstock version of the Star-Spangled Banner, everything is in there, helicopters, missiles, guns, you know, call to arms, you know, rescue, it is, it is all there. It is all there in purple haze, too. So, it is, it is just that we had hit a place where I think something had to give, and music was right at that fulcrum. And, you know, I am even [inaudible]. I mean, you know, Okie from Muskogee, and, you know, you know, some of the other stuff that he wrote after that, everybody responded and reacted. And if it was anti-anti-war, if it was anti Nixon, if it was, you know, give peace a chance. Everything became a flexion point. And music was, I think, like I said, was the seminal part of that. Why that was, I think it was the times I think it was the way the industry was, I think it was the way the politics were. But, you know, and but, you know, I listened to War by Edwin Starr. We sing, you know, Woodstock and, and we saw the movie at the theater in Vietnam, you know that. And we had to we had to leave the theater because we were getting rocketed. You know, this is the craziness of that time. And it is, it is all caught up in the music and I do not know how better to say it. I do not know how better to explain it. But it was, It was there at every pivotal point. And it is for a lot of us. It is still there. We need it.

SM: 1:05:33
Quick question I have is when you flew over, were there other people with you that were going into the military?

DB: 1:05:43
Oh, yeah. When-

SM: 1:05:45
How many were in the plane that were you? Were you How many were there?

DB: 1:05:49
You go. It is like amazing. It is like a cattle call. You go to Fort Travis, Travis Air Force Base, that we fly into San Francisco, my best friend, my best friend who was my best friend to this day, George Moriarty. He and I were the only hometown [inaudible] center together. And then we ended up in the same office in Vietnam. We showed up at Travis Air Force Base together, George got called out of the first manifest first. When they called us, they brought everybody out. And George was on the first one, the first plane to go to Vietnam. I sat around Travis doing [inaudible] work for a few days. It seemed like an eternity. And a week later, I go to Vietnam. It is just the way the computers worked and replace this is Robert McNamara incarnate. You know, running numbers, Running IBM cards through a computer with different MOS is in different locations. And again, you know, there were guys with my MOS like that is military occupational specialty. Who were you know, up on the DMZ. I ended up being you know, in the air-conditioned jungle again, just-just luck, but Georgia and I ended up there together. And they call you out in the field on the manifests you going on the plane. So we flew Scandinavian Airlines from California to Anchorage, Alaska, from Alaska, to Japan, and from Japan to Vietnam, longest and most painful flight I have ever been on. And I guess there must have been 150 to 200 GIs all of us going to Vietnam to Long Binh base right outside Saigon.

SM: 1:07:31
I got the one question I want to have you about all those counters you had at Bentley was the number one song, In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida.

DB: 1:07:38
[laughter] The funny thing was, that was later and you know, that was very popular on a pirate radio show by a guy named Dave Rabbit who [inaudible] show that is a that is another whole story of his you should follow sometimes it was called Radio First Termer. But you know, and of course the act was the guy passed out in the concert and everybody thought people that did not know that the iron butterfly stick, or you know what they did on stage it was like the who burning smashing the guitar. They really thought this guy had passed out, you know, the drummer, but, you know, I you know, I got to honestly, I got to say, there were other better moments and I do think probably the high point was you know, Surrealistic Pillow that basically playing the Hole and Chris Grace Slick then, I meet her in 1967.

SM: 1:08:36
Wow.

DB: 1:08:36
Holy shit. Hair was down. You know, it is all Mr. Nice. Gorgeous looking young. I never seen a woman like this. And she was the first woman I ever heard say Fuck, yeah. It was love at first sight. With Grace Slick.

SM: 1:08:53
We do not- it is interesting Binghamton University. It was called Harper College, SUNY Binghamton at the time, when I was here. I was here (19)67 to (19)70. We had the Chamber's Brothers we had Iron Butterfly. We had Lovin' Spoonful, we had the Turtles we had-

DB: 1:09:12
We had the Turtles too I forgot to mention [crosstalk]

SM: 1:09:13
-the Arlo Guthrie we had we had. I want I know that. Let us see. We also had Duke Ellington and Ella Fitzgerald, because jazz is very popular Binghamton.

DB: 1:09:14
Yep. [crosstalk]

SM: 1:09:15
And we had [crosstalk] Mountain.

DB: 1:09:29
We can do this back. And that is the thing. This is that your you know, and look at, look at what you are saying you are going from psychedelic, you know, real electronic. I mean, a Spoonful could be you did a bunch of different stuff. They could be folk that could be rock.

SM: 1:09:45
Right.

DB: 1:09:45
They could be soft rock. You know, the Chambers Brothers. I mean, that this was the first before Hendrix was the first African American group that was psychedelic. Your time has come today. So, you know, I think what you are saying is you are you are exposed to that. I am lucky I am in this oasis in a desert in West Virginia, exposing a bunch of kids in Wheeling and Wellsburg. And Bethany, to this is happening all over the country. These-these acts wanted to be in front of audiences, they wanted to be in front of kids, you know, that they knew the sound resonated with and spoke to because the music did. And they were not as hung up on, you know, they had to get, you know, 50 percent of, you know, 70,000 tickets now, they wanted upfront money, and they wanted to come and perform, and that is what we were able to do at Bethany, you probably did in Binghamton, you could probably get a bigger audience. But yeah, we all had all this music is literally in front of us, which I think was, you know, another defining thing for our generation.

SM: 1:10:49
On May 2 1970, we had the Grateful Dead in the band. So, yeah, and then-then.

DB: 1:10:57
A person, person that could not [inaudible] [crosstalk].

SM: 1:10:59
Yeah, and the person kept coming in from New York was Paul Butterfield. He was very popular here.

DB: 1:11:04
Yeah, I love- I saw Paul Butterfield in Spokane, Washington.

SM: 1:11:10
Unbelievable concerts we had, one of the questions I want to ask also is did you ever think about the generation you belong to? I know when you are young, and you know, you hear the stories about, you know, the biggest generation in American history after the war. You know, so many kids are being born Art Linkletter had his TV show, you know, kid about kids and everything. But did you ever think of yourself? I am a part of something different? Not just not just size, but for me, it was when I got to [inaudible] college.

DB: 1:11:45
Yeah, no, I did. And I think I never put it in terms of, you know, the baby boomer generation, until college. But I always felt that when I was younger, my brother and I were listening to, you know, Over the Mountain, Across the Sea, by Johnny and Joe, in a bar, upstairs bedroom, and my parents hollering for us to keep it down, and then could not understand what two black people were doing up in our bedroom, having a conversation about falling in love. You know, and then you had Elvis and Little Richard and Sam Cooke. And, you know, and on and on, even had Pat Boone, Fats Domino, but, you know, I started to feel different, we were different than they were because of our music. And then we started to be different than they were because of our outlook, and because of our lifestyle, because of our hair because of our cars. You know, so, and then I did not realize what that difference meant. Or if it would I, you know, began to articulate it, until I started to realize that I was this generation that JFK challenge to, you know, do ask not what they could do, you know, because you could do for them, but what we could do for the country. I mean, that was sort of our ethos. We all grew up with that.

SM: 1:12:59
Right.

DB: 1:12:59
Sons of World War Two dads, sons and daughters of World War Two dads gave the world we got to do that. But then I started to feel like, we were not just different because of that call, we were different because of who we were, what we were listening to what we were questioning. And, yeah, I, I felt that very much through college and in the army, particularly. Because this is these are the guys who are doing the fighting and dying.

SM: 1:13:24
And you know, it is amazing. And I will get back to questions. But I started feeling it when I was a college at SUNY Binghamton. Man, what a great time to be alive, even though we were going through hell with a lot of the issues in the world with the Vietnam War, and certainly the civil rights issues and all the movements that we were evolving. And seeing a lot of the injustice has been going on for an awful long time, even when we were little kids in the 1950s. But, you know, it was just a feeling Wow, it is great to be young. And [crosstalk] I could not explain it any better. It is just a feeling.

DB: 1:14:03
No-no, I did. And, and it was it was something that was expressed in the music that we listen to and grouped around. I mean, regardless of your taste, I mean, you know, I want to hear the stones in the Supremes, you know, and maybe the Chambers Brothers, well, they did not get much of an am radio, but you know, somebody else wants to hear, you know, Little Green Apples or Patches, but, you know, we were all hearing the same stuff. Yeah, they can like what they like I could, but we were and you know, a lot of a lot of what was going on like that that distinction-distinction, as you were feeling was articulated by the music.

SM: 1:14:40
You know, your books all about and we are going to get back to it and Vietnam-Vietnam veterans and the music of the war and everything, but there were a lot of people that were not veterans and did not serve. And I for one, I just wanted to list there were six songs that really stood out for me, that I can pinpoint in here. and hear the tune. And I can remember exactly where I was when I heard it and one of them is Time by the Chambers Brothers, because of the concert of Binghamton University, it was unique. It was a happening. Remember that word happening?

DB: 1:15:13
Yep, oh yeah, oh yeah.

SM: 1:15:13
Everything was happening. And then I remember right and when my parents when we went to every Saturday down to Binghamton and hearing Bobby Vinton sing Blue Velvet. I remember that song. And then Richard Harris MacArthur Park was very important around here. Binghamton Cornell University, Ithaca College Binghamton students, a lot of them went to Stewart Park. So the, the Richard Harris song, and then My Father, the Judy Collins song, which is so different. And of course, Mamas Mamas and the Papas California dream. And that is why I went to California for a while. So, you know, you really hit it, not only for people who, who were in Vietnam, but people who are not in Vietnam. It is, it is all part of our lives. I have a question too, about the Wall. This is the 40th anniversary of the Wall this year. And I could not believe it has been that long. And that happened on November 11 of 1982. That what is your what are your thoughts on the Wall? Usually, you have been to the Wall, probably. But if you did.

DB: 1:16:08
Yes-yes.

SM: 1:16:12
What was when you walked there for the first time and you saw it, but then you saw your reflection? What were you thinking?

DB: 1:16:29
I was thinking I could be in and out the Wall that you know, there, but for the grace of God, you know, that do not say, and again, explain to you that, you know, rolling the dice getting drafted. And I mean, being having the capacity to do what they wanted to do with me. I could have been in there. And so you see yourself in there. And one of the-the only the only combat correspondent information specialist from our office, who was killed in Vietnam, was a colleague of mine, a guy that that I served with there, and he is on the Wall. And that could I right away. I think that could be the next the Warren Z Warner could be looking at Doug Bradley's name on that Wall. I think all the controversy that was standing, and maybe some people still do not, do not like it. But I think that is all changed. But you remember all the controversy?

SM: 1:18:16
Yeah, it is unbelievable. I mean, down there on in a couple of- about a week now for the dreams and on the 40th anniversary. Just have you heal from the war? And do you feel and then you teach this co teach this course with a professor who teaches, I think African and African American history? And I would be curious about what his thoughts might be too, because you have written an unbelievable book. I think it is a historic book. I think it is a it should be required reading in any course on the (19)60s. But hidden [inaudible] to you and your peer, your co-author, he [inaudible] for.

DB: 1:18:57
I think, in some ways, yes. I-Craig knows that. His experience was he was in he, what they did was they did when you when you are number came up for that year in the lottery. That is the number you kept so years after that, they might only take a specific age group and do it for that year and, and then tickets specific age group for the next year. So, in other words, he-he knows he could have gone to Vietnam, but he had a good lottery number after 1969 because he is a little younger, and he did not go. But he grew up in Fort Carson, Colorado, and he used to play in a rock band that played in the Air Force academies out there too. So he was playing a lot of music for guys who had been older and come home or that were home and going over. And he-he knew, I think at a young age of what soldiers were doing with who was doing fighting, dying, you know, fortunate son was not, it was not the Senator's son. It was not the millionaire's son. was not a politician that, you know, it was it was the kids, you know that were working at the gas stations in the supermarkets or dropped out of school or whatever. And that gave Craig an awareness. And I think he is grateful for that. And he also he, I think he understood, again, the good luck and good fortune that he had. And the wonderful thing about him, this is one of the brightest guys I know. But when he became, he got degrees in English, from Champaign, Urbana, Illinois, but he very early first teaching degree at University of Mississippi, and his-his roommate down there was a shared a home with-with housework with African Americans. And he grew in awareness of the, of the power of music, gospel, soul blues, in and for people of color. That changed his whole approach to the teaching in the direction when do we got an Afro American Studies became chair of Afro American Studies, Madison, I believe, was probably, at the time, the only white chair of an Afro American Studies Department anywhere. And, you know, because of who he was, and, and not only, you know, his scholarship, but also his teaching and, and reaching out. And I think for Craig yeah, he has always said, one of the things he always says on a presentation is Vietnam vets have kept me sane, meaning, he was not the kind of guy that could enjoy and [inaudible] the politics of higher education, that schmoozing the game playing. You know, the committee's that some of the crap that goes on and then that the political and I love higher education, but he was not, he was not attuned to that. And so he used to hang out with us other Vietnam vets, you know, we had a writing group, we did put out a magazine at our own expense called The Deadly Writers Patrol. And Craig did a lot of this, I think, is a way not just for penance. You know, like, I was lucky they, but also because he believed that Vietnam vets had not gotten a fair shake and needed to heal, and writing and music are ways to do that healing. So and I can say that for me, too. I am, you know, even though I was in the rear and was not in combat, I think 12 months in a warzone, can screw you up a little bit. I think I had a mild case of PTSD when I came home. And, and I, you know, I did my graduate work, I focused on stuff that was related to Vietnam, even though it was just getting a master's in English. When I got to Madison, I helped set up a place called vets house, which was a community-based service center. It was basically vets helping vets because nobody was helping us. So I was trying to do what I could to help guys that had not had the advantages I did. And then, of course, the book, and I still do presentations around the state and around the country. I was in DC. In June, I am doing a thing here. I did a couple of things here in September, I am doing something here in November. I am teaching a class in Arizona, in November in January, it is just I could not stop because I think there are people that still need to come home. And this is a way to get them back home. I-I know more than one veteran that I have that we have interviewed that I believe in sitting down with us and telling a story about the power of a song, like you talking about, you know, maybe Judy Collins or the Chamber's Brothers, when they tell that that that that is not in all cases, but in a lot of cases. That was that was when that veteran got back home. At that is, you know [crosstalk]

SM: 1:23:45
What is really great about the music of this era, is the fact that you can listen to the words, you can hear the words. You know, I know through all the different timeframes, certainly, and we got into the (19)80s and the (19)90s. And some of the rock groups, you just hear noise, you do not hear the words. The words had such an important effect on anyone who was listening to it. I mean, it is just like, wow, it is like a wakeup call. But it is also a brief emotion to you. Just like hundreds of the songs, and I have even gone on the web and looked at songs under a country western and then I will look at rhythm of blues and soul and even disco. There is something in every era about the (19)60s and the (19)70s. And there is words you can learn from them. Your book is done tremendous service because it is not only about healing Vietnam vets. It is also about healing non-Vietnam vets who lived in this same time and it is helping us heal as-as a people and as a nation during this very difficult time in our history.

DB: 1:25:00
I could not agree more. And we need more of it, we could use that a little bit of that now.

SM: 1:25:05
I agree.

DB: 1:25:05
And I think, you know, and as you know, we both know, there is still work to be done on both fronts both then and now. And I, I find that I know, our audience is a self-selecting, but not everybody that comes there, you know, comes there to be healed or saved, they probably did not use a word like that-that they were-

SM: 1:25:08
Right.

DB: 1:25:24
-intimating that they were broken or something. But, you know, the audience is, you know, this is people who participate in people who protested, these are folks to stay, hope to serve, and the music grounds them, it is, it is honest, it is authentic. It and people are respectful, they listen. And I think they find ways to, to form a bond, like you said, whether you were there or not, we all had the same music, we-

SM: 1:25:53
Yep.

DB: 1:25:53
-had some of the same experience. And we all I think we [inaudible] need a little love in our hearts.

SM: 1:26:00
When I asked that question about what everybody thinks about when they go to the-the Wall the first time or, you know, anytime they go to the Wall. I think I have always said there are two heroes during this period is those who serve their nation in the military, number one. And number two are the anti-war people who are honest and sincerely interested in ending the war to bring our men and women back for more so they would not die. And, and I still think I in I know, there was a lot great division between the pro war and anti-war period in time, the hard hats in New York City and all that other stuff. But when it comes down to it, who was generally honest about their feelings about saving human lives, and-and in some of the anti-war, people that have gone to the Wall, not only see Vietnam, veterans on that Wall, they see Vietnamese people on that Wall, because two to 3 million people die in that war from Vietnam, and Cambodia and Laos. So, it is care about them to [crosstalk]

DB: 1:27:05
-know that I think that is, that is exactly right. And I, you know, it is too bad that I think in the way we have polarized and sort of demonize the both the era, and especially folks who are anti-war, as done us a disservice, because there were people who genuinely and for and I have met many of them, who fervently believe that war was not a good thing that we were, you know, committed some major atrocities and destroying a culture in a nation over there. And for not the right reasons and they wanted to save lives and save their lives. And, but we made it seem like they spent on soldiers, and they hated them, and they disrespected them. And they did not, you know, the people that I linked arms with, when I got home and a few even before I went over, I thought were people who genuinely wanted to keep me safe.

SM: 1:27:06
Yep.

DB: 1:27:06
And I, you know, I-I am all for that. And it was too bad that you know, it has become the guys that fought whether it was a noble cause they could have won if they would have fought the war properly, and done it differently. And now they came home and everybody shit on him. And that is not that is not the case. It is not that easy. It is not that simple. It is not that black and white. But that is how we have basically allowed some historians and some presidents to explain that era. And I think it does us a disservice. It keeps us divided.

SM: 1:28:36
I agree.

DB: 1:28:37
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, absolutely true. And it happened. I mean, you know, they could control the airwaves, but they could not control ears. [laughs] And so um, yeah, you were not going to play. You know, Happiness is a Warm Gun. You were not even going to listen to for time they did not [inaudible] guy to have his place played, you will have [inaudible] DJs? Talk about that song being on the non-playlist, never ever Eve of Destruction by Barry McGuire. Movie, Do not Take Your Love to Town because the guy shoots his girlfriend, you know, that was based on a Korean War story, but you know it but he thought it was about Vietnam and you know, you could not have somebody you know, Scott has done that his legs and he shoots his girlfriend. I mean, it is like, you know, it is yeah, that is just but we still heard the songs. You know, we could get music and other ways. People from home would send us stuff. There were pirate radio stations there were pirate DJs Dave rabbit, and on a show called Radio First Termer or being the-the ultimate in your face to the army. But other guys did that some of the [inaudible] it just play songs that they would not play on AFEN, um when they had when they would play music in some of us [inaudible] clubs and sometimes even on the some of the some of the bands and the radio dials and the radio headsets and transmitters in Vietnam. We could get all that music so you were not play you with a little help from my friends when I was there because Spiro Agnew said it was a drug song. We can all listen to, you know, we can listen to war by Edwin Starr. Yeah. I mean, we sort of laughed about in Vietnam, it is like, well, okay, yeah, it is not good for anything. But what is that going to do for us? They are going to get home any sooner. But yeah, I mean, I, we interviewed a lot of AFEN DJs for the book, because like I said, their job was to keep the morale up like [inaudible], kindred spirits, in a way and knew we had to do some things and sometimes bide our time. But they did a good job. They did. Many of them did the best job they could, and they cared about the guys out in the field. And but they did sometimes have constraints put on it like we did. I could not like what I was seeing. Am I going to, am I going to write about, you know, you know, when our base gets attacked in, you know, because near the elections in- Viet Cong basically showing us who is in charge, because they do not want President [inaudible] reelected, [inaudible] the election? I will pick it or write that story, but it happened. I saw it.

SM: 1:30:00
You also, you mentioned this, the most there were two very important items for all veterans, our Vietnam vets, and that one was their gun. And number two was their radio. And, and you-you did a great job in the book of talking about you know, they were not carrying these radios around in the jungle. You know, you did not they were not sure they did not have any in la the Drang Valley, you know.

DB: 1:32:29
No-no.

SM: 1:32:31
So, because you can be heard, but you made a good point in talking about that, that the combat troops themselves. But it was only when they got back, not when they were out in the field.

DB: 1:33:09
Absolutely. We got an army of a couple segments in there. As you know, we have solos in the book because we just wanted the whole point was to get out of the way of other voices is some of the people guys like Bill Hardin, and Bill [inaudible], and Art Flowers and Phil Kristofferson, and Gordon Fowler, who are writers and musicians have their own ways poets, said, you know, can I write my own piece, and you guys can edit if you want, but I want to, I want to write what my song experiences. Bill has one where, you know, somebody, they call it the bullshit band. And it was, it was what part of the radio dial, when, you know, troops had to be alerted to area or they were checking within the perimeter and guard duty. And somebody got on that band and started to play music. And here was a bunch of guys and Marines up in on the DMZ in combat boots dancing to the letter by the box tops, you know, [inaudible].

SM: 1:34:00
Right.

DB: 1:34:02
And so, yeah, I mean, it was the music was-was that essential and important and to us, and you know, we found ways you know, whether you had a rifle or not, and again, silence in the field, but here are these guys are not back in the rear yet. They were just not out in combat, and they were listening to their music. And when they go back out the next day, you know, silence is going to keep you safe. But you might have a song playing in your head and we had guys tell us stories about that too. You know, trying to get really bad Lesley Gore song, Sunshine, Lollipops and Roses out of your head, because it was your girlfriend's favorite song, but I do not really think about that. Now when I got to see if there is anybody out there trying to shoot.

SM: 1:34:48
I want to mention too that you have heard Have you heard the song the Wall by John McDermott?

DB: 1:34:55
I have. Yep.

SM: 1:34:56
Well, I did not realize he said one of the Irish tenors of course. And he-he has been doing concerts all over the country. And he gives it to local VA, Vietnam veteran chapters. He was just he was just unbelievable. And he was, he was saying at the Wall, maybe 10 years ago, and he did a, you know, 30 minutes before the opening for Memorial Day. And I was sitting next to a gold star Mother, I will never forget it. And she says to me, you see the Wall over there be your behinds shoulder? Yes. My son's name is on that little part of the Wall. And that is a memory I will never forget, she was a gold star mother. So it really touches you. And of course, he deeply cares about veterans. You talk also about the very important section in your book toward the back is the story about Bobby Muller and Bruce Springsteen, could you talk about that? Yeah, I know, Bobby. He was at my retirement. And-

DB: 1:35:58
Oh, my gosh, I love Bobby and, you know, talk about a guy that gave everything he could to the cause both giving part of his body away to the war itself. And then what he did afterwards, and I, you know, it was such an amazing moment, because you were talking about the concerts, but now called the concert for the Vietnam vet 1981. And Bruce has been around for a few years, he has gotten some traction is a new Bob Dylan. He was the new hit and but he basically was still a musician, and, you know, played his music and got you energized his audiences, but did not talk about politics, or war, or service or anything like that. And that night, when at- Muller's insistence, and some of the other organizers of the concert, had the perimeter of the stage proper, not the larger part of the audience. Wheelchair accessible and had nothing but Vietnam vets, mainly most of them moved to Vietnam vets around at that stage, that that was the night but Springsteen came out from behind the curtain and he [inaudible], you know, he-he was so moved by that. And he knew that could have been him. It was again, that moment that we talked about. And I have talked about, you know, growing up hardscrabble, the way Bruce did, you know, probably first drummer, Bart Haynes was killed in Vietnam. He knew it was it was it was working class kids like himself and his buddies, who went over there. That is what John Fogarty and CCR knew too, could have been. It could have been him. And having this moment where he was taking all that in. And, and then he, he decides to sing, Who Stopped the Rain? And Muller, I think just, you know, captured that when he talked us about it. He is still, I think if he almost levitates, when-when he does, because he knew that was not just a great moment for Bruce. And it was, but it was a wonderful moment for Vietnam vets. Because then Bruce, you know, Born in the USA, came partly out of that experience. And he stood up for that and did things for-for Bobby's organization, and for others. And he is still doing I mean, and he, I think, maybe always had [inaudible], but he-he brought that out that night and that concert, and I think Bobby captured beautifully in the book.

SM: 1:36:02
You talk about the fact that the Vietnam Veterans of America was might be going under without the support of that concert-

DB: 1:38:36
Correct.

SM: 1:38:37
-that was put together.

DB: 1:38:37
Exactly [crosstalk]

SM: 1:38:38
And then of course, the other artists start doing concerts for them.

DB: 1:38:41
Yep, that is what Bobby would tell you. For sure.

SM: 1:38:44
Yeah, I said, I think it is a great part. And it leads into some very good sections in the book too. What is the main What is the main? My question, what is the main message you want future students, faculty and national scholars to know about the purpose of your book, your top your top conclusion after writing your book? Because-

DB: 1:39:11
I think, I think there is a few things I think one is music is where memory lives. And I think as you articulated with your quick six songs playlist, and I bet if we talked longer, you would have 60 or 600.

SM: 1:39:27
Probably. [laughs]

DB: 1:39:28
You know, it is, it-it-it sort of kind of soundtracks our lives and it-it is pain, its joy, it is, it is happiness, it is sorrow, it is everything but it is, it is where align and they found this now through the research and science if they can do with brain scans. It is it is where memories resides right next to music. And that combination I think is-is powerful. I and I think they would even we were talking to people 30, 40 or more years removed from that experience, a song, and a moment could bring everything back. And, and so that is one. The other is that it is a way it is a way to heal. And I do not mean everybody is broken. I think everybody needs to have a little peace and tranquility, and, and hope in their lives. And I think, I think that is the other thing the music did for a lot of these guys. As I said, there is some people we talked to Neil Hoxie, the guy that gave the story about we got to get out of it. I mean, about feel like I am [inaudible]. When he told that story that night to me in his daughter was in his home. I knew that was the night he got back from Vietnam. 45 years after he left. Music it can do that. It can do it for us now. And I think the other thing is, it is never too late to try and bring a soldier and a veteran home. You know, the current vets do not have the music, we the way we had it, they do not have music. And they have their own soundtracks, their own headsets. It is not a shared communal experience. But music is still do that for them, whether it is their music, or whether it is ours, [inaudible] era. And it is we got a lot of work to do, because this generation of men and women, who are now have now become they have surpassed us because so many of us are dying. It is the largest generation of veterans post 911 vets in the country. Now no longer Vietnam vets, and they need, they need to heal, they need to get home. They need to have America there for them. And so, whether it is music, whether it is writing, whether it is you know, dog therapy, whether it is horses, whether it is, you know, nature, we have to we have to continue to work on bringing people home. And frankly, one of the best ways to do that is to stop waging wars that, you know, are in our best interest and frankly, are winnable.

SM: 1:42:00
Yeah, that is something I have noticed. I have gone to the Vietnam Memorial ever since I first met Louis Poehler back in (19)93, and I tried to go every year, I have only missed a couple years for Memorial Day and Veterans Day, and I am not a veteran, I feel I must be there. But it is Vietnam veterans have done so many things in terms of when you consider what happened in (19)92. And they were kind of welcomed home for the first time. But they constantly talk about at these events, the importance of caring about those veterans who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan or the Gulf War or any of our, you know, small skirmishes around the world. And so that what happened to us never happens to them.

DB: 1:42:47
Yep-yep. And [crosstalk] go ahead.

SM: 1:42:54
Certainly, the building of the Wall. Look what look, look what happened after that the World War Two Memorial, the Korean Memorial. And I knew Jan Scruggs is somewhat involved with a group now doing something for Iraq and Afghanistan vets to never forget what they did. Who have taken the lead here. It is Vietnam vets.

DB: 1:43:17
Yep-yep. No, I hear you. And, you know, I think, you know, I think CCR was the first group to sort of put it right. And you know, two of them, one of them the Coast Guard, one was in John Ford, he himself was in the, you know, the guard, he could have been activated could have gone a different way. They understood who was fighting, they were the ones that said, you can disagree with the war, but you can support the soldier. Because, you know, for lack of, you know, different situations, it could be you and yeah, I think, I think that is what Vietnam vets got. It is I am not one of those guys that is going to parade around in my uniform, or, you know.

SM: 1:43:59
Right.

DB: 1:43:59
Memorabilia or anything, and say, you know, somebody spit on me, but I am going to say, you know, shame on you, America for not finding ways to bring us home. You know, other cultures did it, you know, and you look at Native American vets, we have a lot of them in the book, they talk about water rituals, the whole tribe brings you back and helps you to heal. We could have done that as a country because we lost more Vietnam vets after the war, whose names are not on the Wall, to, you know, suicide or agent orange, car wreck, you know, you name it, because they could not get home. They could not make the transition. They were not welcome. They were not cared for. those lives could have saved and there is still lives to be saved. So, we got to do.

SM: 1:44:45
Your I know, you said to probably be 600 that I would do but I bet you probably do 600 too. But I want to ask you, Doug, if you could list fives tunes that stand out to you and when you list them what memory comes back? Where were you? Or how when you first heard it or just-just five?

DB: 1:45:08
Wow. [laughs] Only five?

SM: 1:45:11
Yep.

DB: 1:45:12
Okay, well, let us see why that is a great question. Of course, we got to get out of this place has to be on the list because, you know, I was in an EM club. And, you know, enlisted men, you know, in Vietnam, there was a Korean band who were doing a great playlist every day, from country to, to the Doors to Motown, James Brown, they had a guy singing lead, that was really good, and a couple of really cute girls. But man, when they did was that to get out of this place, you know, we all joined arms, put our arms around one another, and sang and sang it with [inaudible] at the top of our lungs. And so, you know, anytime I hear that song, I am like back there. And all the places I have been ever since because we play at all the presentations we do. So that is, you know, that is got to be on the list. Boy, this is a really good question, because there are so many of them. By you know, I got to put what was going on in there too. Because when we started to interview guys, and talk to them about, about the book and interview, and it was not just African American soldiers, we realized that Marvin Gaye had done something really powerful. And what we did not realize it basically, a lot of that had to do with the experience of his brother, Frankie Gaye, who was in Vietnam, and did not have the same kind of luck that Marvin did. And that that song, if you listen to it, if you listen to the album, is really about what a black veteran like Frankie Gaye is facing when he comes home, because the songs never ending start with what was going on. And you go to What's Happening Brother, and Fly the Friendly Skies and Save the Children and Mercy Mercy Me and Wholy holy, you go all the way through and the last song, Inner City Blues, you know, the last lyrics of that, or the, or the first lyrics of what is going on. So, you are going to loop and loop you are in is the kind of loop that Frankie and a lot of Vietnam vets were, and that is, you know, what is going to happen? Is America going to be there for me is-is-is my country going to be there for me? Am I going to make it? Am I going to do drugs? Am I going to stay alive? I get to, you know, what am I what is going to happen? And I think that is that, you know, that when I listened to that now, and Art Flowers does an incredible piece in our book about that, that, you know, that is, that is what it, that is what it is. I mean, it is so it is so powerful. So that is, that is another one that is got to be at the top of the list. I got to think some more here. Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. I mean, it is, it is such a big list. But those are great ones to go through. I think. Probably, like a Rolling Stones band another one for me, because it came out in 1965 when I was graduating from high school, going to college, maybe first generation, you know, my whole life was ahead of me. And, you know, I knew who Dylan was, but I never heard him like that. And there was something about that summer (19)65 I remember either listening to that, or Satisfaction, it seems like those were the songs I heard all summer. And that whole thing of, you know, has a field, you know, to be on your own, like a complete unknown. I mean, what what-what is going to happen, the kind of questions the kind of images, the kind of searching, the kind of wondering, I think, probably, you know, forever sort of footnoted that period of my life for me. You know, Firing Rain, strangely enough. You know, I was in basic training, and there was a guy that would get up every morning, he had a wonderful voice, chubby guy, recording Big Fat Bob, and I did not want to learn his last name, because I did not want to find that on the Wall. I do not remember any of the names other than sort of the nicknames and first names of any of the guys I was in basic training with, because that was one of my opportunities 50- I was one of two college grads, everybody else was 18, 19, 20 and I am sure some of their names are on the Wall. But Bob when he would get us up every morning, when he woke up, he would sing Fire and Rain by James Taylor and he you know, eventually sometimes occasionally we would, we would so we throw pillows at him or swear at him, or scream at him but he got it right and there was something about, that is what we were dealing with we were facing fire and rain. That is how I felt, you know, not knowing what was going to be like what life was going to be like in Vietnam. And-and I just you know, again, I mean there is I could go on and on. I think if on the road to find out by Cat Stevens to for the tournament came out when I was in Vietnam, I have a copy of it that was pressed on a on a bootleg label a guy got from me in Taiwan for $1 I am sure. Cat Stevens never saw any of the money from that. But, you know, that is when I came back. And I did not know what was going to I did not know, I was going through my, you know, Frankie Gaye thing. I did not know what was going to happen. I was driving around making visits to people who had written letters to me in Vietnam, because that is how we kept in touch. And I had, I did not have a clue of what I was going to do or where I was going to go. And, and I remember listening to that song and just, you know, trying to, you know, what is the way home? What is the way out? Where am I headed?

SM: 1:51:15
Now, those are great five. Those are fantastic. I tell you, Marvin Gaye song, What's Going on? Golly! I can put the year 1971. The first thing I think of is that song because I was a graduate student and I was working in my brother's insurance company in Philadelphia. And I heard the album came out and I took a break. And Philadelphia and I went to Sam Goody and got the album. And it has been my one of my favorite tunes. And the other thing is, I think a 1967 because that was Light My Fire with the Doors. And I was had a summer job in Cortland, New York, and I had a ride. I did not have a car back then. But I was in my first or second year at Binghamton, and I had a summer job there. And the guy was riding with on the way home when he we blast that song. Oh, well, every single night? Because he had tea at a tape deck, and he would put it Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, my golly. And so I look forward to that every night after getting out of work over, you know, I was tired, but boy did that wake me up. So I have one other thing that another quote from your book, and then I got one other thing, and then we are done. This is something I think is very great, or a really great line that you put in the book. "For many vets music was an emotional touchstone for connecting with the wound parts of themselves. The Blues can help produce and confirm the value of their lives so they can see another day." And now that you were talking about the blues in there, and the blues tunes that people listened to in Vietnam, but there is so much truth there because of the trauma you have already discussed about. That the trauma that Vietnam vets went through was also the trauma that African Americans went through in slavery, and how they have been treated in their history. So that was excellent. Before I asked my final question, I want to read this if-if it is okay, it is a- it is a part of an interview that you did with Gerald McCarthy, who you remember that, and I do not want to be too long vided here. But I think it is important because this is his comments here. "Now it is easier to look back and see our ignorance for what it was an acre in, spawned by our youthful disregard for authority in reality, a way we all have not seen what we should have recognized. Many years later, the poet Sonia Sanchez, would tell my writing class at Attica prison. If you are here on purpose, it means you all come back on purpose. And I know she was speaking about prison and recidivism and the racism inherent in the penal system and society. But instead, I remembered the men, especially the soul brothers I had served with in Vietnam who did come back to face the same things again and again, at home and in war overseas. It is easy to be critical when you have the force of history behind you. When you see that the deaths we witnessed in Vietnam and afterwards, we are connected. So I must confess that the sweet sound a sweet soul music we loved and dance to was not escape a return to the world we thought we knew but did not know a glimpse into the time that seemed an essential part of us. And this way music was our youth and a connection to the things we shared class and work and war. It was essential because it did not divide us or stress our differences or divisions. I thought that was a great part of an interview that you did. You went, I am basically done.

DB: 1:53:25
Oh yeah. I got to go. So last question.

SM: 1:55:04
The last question is this. People will listen to this interview years from now 50 years from now what words of advice would you give to these young students or faculty members or national scholars who will listen to this interview?

DB: 1:55:22
Open your ears listen, to listen to music that speaks to you, but also music that you are not as familiar with. And you know, if you can maybe lend somebody who is struggling a little and did something different than you especially, they deserve. Help me to get back home.

SM: 1:55:46
Very good. Thank you very much. Great, fine. Are you still there. Yeah, I want to thank you very much for doing the interview and actually going over again, what we lost in the very beginning earlier today. Thank you very much. What will happen is the university will send you a copy of it through the- your digital email, and then you can listen to it and hopefully approve it, and then we can place it on site. Thank you very much for all you do. Please say the thank you to your co-author. Because you are doing something very important and I think your book should be required reading in. I think we are going to I am going to push it here at Binghamton when they had had the (19)60s course. You take care. Thank you. Bye now.
(End of Interview)

2022-10-26

Stephen McKiernan

Doug Bradley

Doug Bradley, a native of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is an author, educator, and veteran. For almost thirty years, he worked as a communications professional at the University of Wisconsin where he still teaches. Bradley wrote several books including Who'll Stop the Rain: Respect, Remembrance, and Reconciliation in Post-Vietnam America. Bradley is the co-author with Craig Werner of We Gotta Get Out of This Place: The Soundtrack of the Vietnam War. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Bethany College and he also earned a Master's degree in English from Washington State University.

1:56:41

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Vietnam; Music; Vietnam war; Vietnam veterans; People; Song; Home; Book; Draft; Memorial Wall, Boomer generation; Soldiers; Army.