Interview with Stephan Wasylko

Interview with Stephan Wasylko

Wasylko, Stephan ; Nasca, Zach ; Greenwell, Emily

Wasylko, Stephan.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Austria; Prisoner-of-war camps; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.)

Stephan Wasylko was born in a displaced persons camp in Austria in 1948. His parents migrated to the United States with him and his sister in 1949 and they lived on a tobacco plantation in North Carolina. They later moved north and found factory jobs first in New Jersey and then in New York. Stephan received a degree from Syracuse University in International Relations and received a Masters from the University of Toronto. Stephan went into the Foreign Service after receiving his master’s degree and traveled around the world. After retiring Stephan and his wife moved to Binghamton in 2010.

2016-04-10

In Copyright

Stephan Wasylko.m4a

2016-04-10

Ukrainian Oral History Project

60:37

Ukrainian Oral History Project

Interview with: Stephan Wasylko

Interviewed by: Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell

Transcriber: Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell

Date of interview: 10 April 2016

Interview Setting: at St. John, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY

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(Start of Interview)

Zach Nasca: Hello, so we're here with Stephan Wasylko and we're going to do an interview. My name is Zack and I'm here with Emily. It's Sunday, May 10, 2016 and we're at St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church and we're going to ask you some questions. So first, I was just wondering if you could tell us a bit about yourself and your background.

Stephan Wasylko: Well, I am a son of Ukrainians, born in a displaced persons camp in Austria, Salzburg, Austria, in 1948, where my parents wound up after the war. In 1949, they immigrated to the United States, landed in Ellis Island and went off to Kingston, North Carolina, where their sponsors, it was a Christian organization, sponsored them. After a year there, a very difficult hard year as indentured servants, they made their way to Passaic, New Jersey where they lived for three years and then ultimately settled in Auburn, New York which is not far from here. That's where I grew up, went to high school there. I went onto Syracuse University where I got a degree in international relations. Right out of university, I was drafted into the US Army. Following my military service, I went to the University of Toronto where I got an MBA in International Trade and Finance. I worked my way to Washington, and I joined the Foreign Service and so I spent over 35 years in the US Foreign Service with postings in Washington, some short time duty in China, served with my family in tow in Prague and Budapest before the wall came down. I worked in Vancouver at the Consulate General there. From Vancouver, we went to Kyiv, Ukraine, which, this was after the Soviet Union imploded. I helped open the US embassy there. After that, I came back to Toronto where I served for five years at the US Consulate and my kids finally had a North American high school experience. They both graduated from high school there. From Toronto, I was assigned to a US embassy in Moscow. From Moscow, we went to London, UK and from London, UK we were assigned to Ottawa and I retired from Ottawa with personal rank of Minister Counselor.

Emily Greenwell: So you've been all over! How old were you when your family settled in Auburn?

SW: Well I was about 4 years old, but I was 9 months old when my family came over. They had basically two babies. My sister is 2 years older, I was 9 months old, so we were a family of four that came to the United States in March of 1949.

ZN: And how long have you been in Binghamton?

SW: Since retiring, since 2010. My wife grew up in this parish, she's originally from Johnson City. We met in Washington, DC, and our two children are grown. They're both working in the city, so aside from having family and her roots here, this is a convenient place for us to retire— my close enough to our kids without actually being in their hair. It's an easy drive there. Our daughter is now a professional fashion photographer in the city, and our son, she graduated from Newhouse School, Syracuse and our son graduated from Ithaca College and he worked with AIG, he's now with Marsh, big insurance companies.

EG: When your family came over, you said that they went with sponsors, but then did they have any reason they moved to New Jersey, then Auburn? Was it just for work?

SW: Yeah, it's an interesting story. My mother and father were the only ones from their families that ultimately came to the United States. The rest all remained in, well, that's a whole different story because they didn't even remain where they grew up because of a lot of turmoil after the war in Europe. People resettled so they were forcibly moved. My father's family was moved to the east, and my mother's family was moved to the north of the Baltics. Both of them were taken as young people as slave laborers by the Germans who were on the farms in Austria. So, you know, around the turn of the century when this parish was founded, there were people coming to work in America in the coal mines, some graduated from the coal mines and into the shoe factories and the next generation was with IBM. My mother's father actually was in America several times, working in Pennsylvania, in Elmira, had a big textile industry there. He would come for a year at a time and then whatever he saved up he would go home. It was basically free movement of labor and the labor was needed here so it was quite open to immigration. A lot of the companies actually had recruiting offices in central Europe at that time. My mother had an uncle who actually came at the turn of the century, 1900s, and remained. He married and had a family there. My mother, just remember that she had an uncle living in Passaic. When they were in North Carolina, it was so difficult for them. They were working on a tobacco farm and from sunrise to sunset, my dad would often say the treatment was worse than what they had under the Nazis working during the war. So he managed to get a ticket, bus ticket, got on the bus, traveled to Passaic, NJ and started walking the streets looking for the copulas on the churches and he came across one church, went there and asked them if they knew Mr. Michael Pinchak. They didn't but they told him to try this other church, so three churches later he actually met people that knew him. He was of that parish. He went to talk to him, had to introduce himself because he had never met him, talked his way into the house, convinced these people he was who he said he was. The uncle had children that were my parents' peers, they were around the same age. My father said, "We need help," and the uncle said, "Well, I'll have vacation next year, I'll come down and see how you're doing." My father said, "By next year we might be dead." So one of the daughters took an interest, hired a small truck and driver, drove my father back to Kinston, NC, and essentially picked up my mother and my sister and me, and whatever major possessions they had, and they moved to New Jersey. They worked there for three years, they found jobs. My sister, I think, was just starting kindergarten, and I wasn't even in school yet. Then my father came up to Auburn, New York, with a friend who was living in Auburn. She was, again, one of the earlier immigrants and found that they had a Ukrainian community in Auburn and met people. While he was away, we were living up above a grocery store. It was a four story building and we were on the third floor. The weekend my father was away, the person living above us fell asleep smoking and the whole place was incinerated. I remember as a child, firemen coming and pounding on the doors. We were back standing out on the street watching this building burn. So when he came back from Auburn, whatever possessions they had at this point were water damaged and ruined, it was terrible. He said, "Forget this, we're going to go up to Auburn." For them, Auburn was much nicer. It was green, it was more, you know, sort of pastoral setting and more like what they were used to back home, whereas Passaic, New Jersey, was urban and quite alien to their experiences. So, a long way but nothing is simple.

EG: So I guess they were kind of fortunate that they had those connections.

SW: Yeah, if you didn't have family then the church would be a place where people would go just gravitate because if you're from the same faith and the same nationality, people reach out and support immigrants. Now, we've got a third wave of immigrants coming. Not too many here, but since Ukraine became independent there's been a huge influx of immigrants coming to United States, but they go where there are jobs and opportunities and unfortunately, this area doesn't offer too much.

ZN: Now, when you were in North Carolina, were you part of a church community there or not until you moved up?

SW: No, there was a protestant church and they were just doing good work. The ladies of the church were very helpful. They'd bring food and clothes, but we were pretty much sort of a welfare case. The farmer they worked for was basically just using them as labor, but the church was Christian and provided Christian help and care.

EG: How did you and your wife meet? She's also Ukrainian, you said, right?

SW: She is. I'm an immigrant, I had a green card until I took the naturalization exam and got my citizenship. She's third-generation Ukrainian, so her grandmother immigrated and settled here and she came in as a 12-13 year old girl when there was a lot of movement. She married here, my wife's mother was born here and all her aunts and uncles were born here. She said she grew up here, very much a part of this St. John's Baptist Ukrainian Orthodox Church community—which is a church, but it was also a social life for them where they did Easter Egg painting, they sang in the choir, did Ukrainian folk dancing, they had Ukrainian festivals. So kids would, after school, grade school or high school, would gravitate here. We had, at that time, a wonderful pastor. He was married, his wife was great. She was very artistic. They were very inspiring for these kids, and are really responsible for a lot of the people's advancement here in this parish that went onto bigger and better things.

EG: Is your wife in the same line of work as you? You said you met in Washington, right?

SW: She went to the Fashion Institute of Technology and she was working in Washington as a graphic designer. She's an interior designer by trade and profession, but she was working as a graphic designer. I was in Washington looking for my first job, it was 1976, and there was a celebration in Shamokin, Pennsylvania. It was celebrating the first Ukrainian church in North America that established, and I was interested in going to that. I had a friend, I asked him if he was going. He said he was but he was going to go with this young lady that he had met, and I said, "Well great, if she has room for another person, I'll be happy to go with you all. If not, I'll drive up alone." Fortunately for her, she had room in the back seat, so that's how we met. Yeah, so it had a Ukrainian context in that regard. So we met and after that we started dating, and the rest is history.

EG: When your parents came over, was there anything, any sort of family heirloom or artifact that they brought over with them? Anything that's been passed down to you?

SW: They brought a tremendous amount with them, but none of it was material. What they brought was, I think first and foremost, their faith, which they shared with us. It sustained them through really hard times because they were removed from their families. They also brought with them these great traditions, how we celebrate Christmas and Easter, which were on a different calendar. We're on the Julian calendar, so we celebrate Christmas on July 7 instead of December 25. In America, again in a good part thanks to Russian propaganda, people call it Russian Christmas. Well it's not, it's the Julian calendar and it's Orthodox Christmas. Then Easter was another tradition we observed. Our Easter this year for example is May 1, so we can be on the same Sunday or up to 5 weeks apart. Ours has a lot to do with Passover, because the last supper was Passover supper, and so that was sort of embedded in us as children and my parents really made it fun and special, so we always felt different. We didn't always have the neatest sneakers or the nicest tee shirts, but we had something no one else had. Plus, our parents were very nationalistic in terms of preserving their language and history, so at home, around the kitchen table when we were eating dinner, and we did a lot of family dinners that was very much a part especially on Sunday, my father wouldn't let us speak English. We had to speak Ukrainian, and for me and my profession it turned out to be a real gift to preserve it. That was very valuable. They taught us how to read in Ukrainian, we went to Ukrainian cultural programs. We participated in various holidays, Taras Shevchenko was the poet laureate of Ukraine, lived in 1860s, sort of the embodiment of what is Ukraine. We would learn his verse by heart, and anniversary of his birth we would have, you know, in our community, these plays. People would come out and recite poetry by heart. A lot of his poetry is put to music. So it was, you know, church and cultural and all these things that we had, and that was basically their legacy. We've tried to pass it on to our children. My son is getting married on the ninth of July to a Ukrainian girl, which I'm sure his grandparents would be very proud of him. My daughter married a wonderful young man from Atlanta, Georgia, but there again he was at the London School of Economics and he did a semester in Ukraine studying iconography. They met at a Halloween party, and I can't remember what he was dressed as but she was the only one that could recognize him, but it's also part of the Ukrainian Gogol Bordello connection. It's sort of that consciousness of being Ukrainian and he went to Ukraine so they immediately had a lot in common and it carried on from there. You know it's just very much a part of who we are. We call ourselves Ukrainian-Americans, and I'm still involved with Ukraine. I'm going to Washington this week. We have a delegation coming in from Washington and I'm working on a USED funded project to help Ukraine develop a national export strategy while they're going through their reforms and trying to get their economy back on a growth cycle after the Revolution of Dignity and all the things that have happened in Ukraine in the past couple years.

EG: You said your son is marrying a Ukrainian girl. Is that something that for your parents was important to them that you marry someone Ukrainian, or do you feel that way about your kids? Or is it just coincidence?

SW: It was very important to my parents. I have three sisters. They all married Ukrainians. I married a Ukrainian. I have one brother who was in the doghouse for a while. He married a non-Ukrainian but his wife really bought into all the Ukrainian traditions. They observe both Christmases, both Easters, their children go to Ukrainian dance camps, go to Ukrainian schools on Saturdays and all that, so it's very much a part of it. He's just basically expanded the gene pool a little bit, which can't be bad.

ZN: Now you said your wife is third generation. Did any of your traditions or celebrations differ from hers or were they pretty much the same?

SW: They were pretty much the same I think. The only difference we had was Christmas Eve, we had a conflict in our mushroom soups. But other than that, we shared. She brought some in and I brought some traditions in, and we kind of amalgamated and it now has our mark on it.

ZN: Does she speak Ukrainian too?

SW: She sings in Ukrainian. Her language skills are limited. She understands more than she speaks, but we lived in Ukraine for three years, so she picked up quite a bit there but she's not a linguist.

EG: How about you children? Do they speak?

SW: They understand. My daughter-in-law-to-be is fluent. Alexander, my son, he was in a Russian language immersion, so he has his Ukrainian from his grandparents and he had the Russian, so he speaks sort of a hybrid Slavic language. But all my nieces and nephews, my sister's kids, my three sisters, they all speak Ukrainian but they grew up very close to their grandparents and that's really where you can get most of it. We were overseas for most of their growing up so our kids went to, my son went to a Czech preschool, my daughter went to a Hungarian preschool, so at the age of 4 or 5 was my wife's interpreter at the markets.

EG: That's a cool story for them to tell of how they grew up.

ZN: I had a question. You said you identify as Ukrainian-American. Would you say you identify as either more? Or is it just a different identity than, you know, separately Ukrainian?

SW: You know, I don't separate the two because that's the beauty of this country. Your composition of, you know, I think President Kennedy said something to the fact that immigrants really enrich this country. So I'm no less American than anyone else, and actually the fact that, you know, I served this country for, including my military, 37 years. For me it was important to give back to the country for opening its doors to my parents and for us.

EG: Do you think either you personally or your parents, did they face any sort of discrimination for being immigrants?

SW: Well I think, you know, you do. Some of it is sort of subliminal. That's why a lot of people change their names even, so they can, and I never felt the need to. I was not, in my own development, I was proud I was Ukrainian. In high school, I had a fight because they would call me, like, "You're a Polack," and at that point in time the kids were doing a lot of name calling and stuff. I said, “I'm not,” but at that point in time nobody knew Ukrainian, it was overshadowed by Russian. So I think maybe for some people it had an influence, and I can recount times when I thought there was some prejudice there, but it makes me all the more satisfied that we were able to overcome that and that my kids don't even think of it. My daughter, even though through marriage her name could have been Line, but she retained her name, Nadya Wasylko. Even her first name, Nadya I think has become more known, a little bit more popular, but she's very proud of her name. As is my son too. When my mother-in-law was growing up, I think they felt a lot more pressure to become Americanized. More of a melting pot mentality. But when we were growing up it was not that bad. In the army, they couldn't pronounce my simple seven letter name. When they yelled out "alphabet", I knew they were calling me. But again, it's pretty simple but we're pretty lazy in America when it comes to foreign languages. Canada is great. You know, we spent a lot of time in Canada. I did my graduate work in Canada, at the University of Toronto, we lived in Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa. You know, Canadians define themselves as being not Americans. They won't tell you what Canadian is, but it's definitely not American. We are the melting pot, they promote multi-culturalism. The government really supports different ethnic groups. They put in for grants for various ethnic programs and language training in schools and what have you. That's how they differentiate themselves from us and I think that's really a great thing.

EG: When your in-laws came over, did they change their names at all to be more part of the melting pot or did they keep their name?

SW: No, you know, they kept their name. And in this community, pretty much everybody kept their name. There's a few that actually change it. Her grandmother started out as a Czebiniak, married and became a Dobransky. Her first husband died and she became a Kaspryk. They just kept it. And these names became better in the community too. As the family expanded, they kind of just kept their identity.

ZN: Now you said with your family, some of them still live in Ukraine?

SW: Yeah, my parents came from very, very humble, almost medieval kind of setting. They were born into families that were essentially in agrarian setting. They lived in thatched roofed huts, houses, dirt floors. Very primitive. This was, you know—my dad was born in 1918, my mother 1924. This was just after World War I. Just before they were born it was part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. I know your focus is on the Russian Empire, but this was the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. After WWI, they basically drew borders and this Ukrainian enclave wound up in Poland, south-eastern Poland. Then comes World War II and you have the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and they redraw the borders again and it was after the war, there were a lot of partisans that were still fighting in that area and so they resettled everybody. My parents, I travelled there, I visited these areas. They were about, maybe ten miles away, their villages. In the 50s, they resettled all the population there, basically to undermine the base of operations of the partisans and for their own needs. The Russians came in and took all the people of my father's village and moved them east, forcibly moved them east. They had to abandon everything. My mother's family was moved north by the Poles to what was the Danzig Corridor. That ran along the Baltic in what is now Northern Poland. That was all occupied by Germans. After World War II, the Germans were basically moved out of there. Poland got the land going right up to the Baltic and they used the people from south-eastern Ukraine to fill that vacuum. So they were all forcibly moved up there. My father was moved to the east. My parents, after the war, were caught up in the displaced persons camps. They were considered stateless because they were Ukrainians, living in what was formerly Poland, and some areas now occupied by the Russians, so they spent from 45-49 in the camp before they resettled. You know, you see now the Syrian immigrants in the camps in Europe, you know, it's basically that kind of setting with these huge, you know compounds where these peoples lived and managed to survive. And so, your question was family there; yes, my mother’s family was in Poland, my father’s family is in what is near Lviv turn, Western Ukraine, and I’ve, you know, I’ve had contact with all of them in both countries.

EG: Did they stay because they didn't have sponsors like your parents, or did they stay for other reasons?

SW: They stayed because they had no options, they were under communist control, the USSR at that time was a locked—you know they couldn't, you couldn't even go from one city to another without having a totalitarian government, so under Stalin at that time, it was extremely difficult, and Poland went Communist you know in '49, the communists took over. And restrictions on travel, on movement of people, you know it was the Iron Curtain. It had gone up, and so it was, what Ronald Reagan referred to as the “evil empire” had taken hold and so people were basically prisoners in their own countries. Prisoners.

EG: So, sorry if this is going backwards, but how did your parents manage to come over then, if the rest of the family couldn't? Because of the sponsors?

SW: Well, because they were separated by their families, during the war, '39 the Germans came in to the region they were in. And they took young people from different homes and took them as slave laborers to Austria and to Germany. So they—after the war was over, you had the, you know, literally millions of displaced people, you had prisoners of war, you had slave laborers, you had millions of people that were, had been uprooted by the war and had wound up in different locations at the end of the war. So they didn't know what had happened to their families. They were taken into these camps, then there were all these international NGOs, these nations that are trying to sort out. A lot of people repatriated; others like my parents were classified as stateless, there was nowhere to repatriate them, although the Russians came in and tried to take people back, and the people that they did repatriate directly, a lot of them, you know, suffered as a consequence. They were considered as collaborators with the Germans, many were imprisoned, some were killed; others were sent off to Siberia. And some you know, my parents managed to find a safe haven, and they were in an American zone, and eventually there was, it was a long process for them to get resettled. That’s why when you, when you have this big uproar about immigrants coming to America now, you know, it's a lot of rhetoric, but that clearance process is very very difficult and it takes time, and you got to, what is the name of accepting the displaced people until later you know, some kind of treatise to open up more quickly, my parents could have moved out of the camps more readily had they agreed to go to Australia, or to South America, but again, because they grew up hearing about stories about their grandparents going to America, they were more determined to wait it out until they had an opportunity to get on the manifest to go to America. So it wasn't a matter of choice—the winds of war swept people around and my father would always say that, as terrible as the war was, World War II, in many respects it opened up the world for these people who lived in these really beautiful pristine valleys and villages, and very idyllic nice place for tourists to visit, but they were a subsistence economy that, you just couldn't survive you know, had the situation like that continued. They'd have to find a way to find more opportunities.

EG: You said that your parents kind of held out for America. Do you think that America met their expectations? Did they have the sort of American dream mentality for it?

SW: I think you know, eventually over time they realized the American dream. They came to this country penniless with no education to speak of, you know, they can read, they can write, but they really didn't have, you know, what they were able to give their children. So they raised five kids, we all went to University, they had their own home. My dad got his own car. You know it was just remarkable, and they worked. They worked. They were blue collar workers. They worked in factory. My mom worked the day shift, my father worked the night shift. But when they got to Auburn. When you know, they found the house, put a down payment on it. They managed to pay it off in like five years, paid off their mortgage. And again they just—it was amazing, you know, for them at the same time, you know their brothers and sisters and even their parents in the early years, were still alive, you know, who were living a terrible life behind the Iron Curtain in the Soviet Union. You know, my parents, once things, after Stalin died and there was a little more communication, they sent letters, or they would send, you know, money. They would package, you know, clothing and send it, or there was even services where you could actually do gift packs of food and send it. I went to Ukraine in 1975 with my dad. He had not been back in forty years. And or seen his brothers in 40 years. He had five brothers and they were all young, virile men. When, as he remembered them, in '75 we went back and he was absolutely devastated to see his brothers. How you know, how abused they were. How downtrodden and you know, they, my father looked like a capitalist, and these guys looked like homeless people. And they worked as hard if not harder than my father, but they didn't have the opportunities, their kids didn't have the opportunity to go to education. And in our case, you know, for you know, if my parents didn't get out of that world, there's no way I would have been a diplomat for the Soviet Union or for Poland, you know, unless you were connected, unless you worked the system, unless you were a member of the Communist Party, you had nothing. And so they came here, and basically by their own sweat and toil, and they're, you know, very scrupulous habits, we didn't go out when we were going up, out to restaurants or anything. My parents had their own garden, you know, canned peaches and pears, and they basically took their own training and their way of life, transposed it into an American setting, managed to save money, managed to buy a house, managed to do all these things. And I never felt that, even though we didn't live on the East End of Auburn, where all the doctors and lawyers [lived], but we were not really poor in any way. We had food, we had clothing, we were washed and clean and we were presentable. But that was all basically their commitment and dedication to their family. And again, what they managed to do for them really was a realization of the American dream. I hear about the, all kinds of people use the [word] “American” and I think it means different things for different people. When I was in Moscow we had Secretary Evans, who was a friend of George W. Bush. They were real buddies, and actually Don Evans introduced George to Laura. So they were really good good friends, and he would come out and he would, Secretary Evans would talk about his own life, and how he and his friend George, young starry eyed guys, you know, went out there looking for oil in Texas, and looking to, living the American dream. Well, you know, to me that was great but it's like, just like Trump's thing is living the American dream because he's so successful, he only started with a few million.

EG: Only?

SW: Only. So that was great, great for him, but you know for my parents, it really was you know the American dream, to where they started and what they accomplished, and you know, where they'd gone. And just in a very short, one, two generations. You know it's been great. And they were inspiring, you know, they're inspiring to even my kids, who hadn't experienced, and so, you know I try to instill in my own kids, you know that, and they're familiar with their grandparents’ story. I've seen them go the distance, you know, see where your grandparents started and how far they went, and then how we've gone in the next generation, and for you, and again, it doesn't have to about money, it's just has to do about you know believing and trying to achieve something you know make your life meaningful. And so that's a great story right there.

EG: Yeah.

ZN: Now you said neither of your parents got an education but all of your siblings did. Was education important to them—that you got it?

SW: Yeah, but they were, my mother got the report card. You know when a teacher told her, “Well, Stephan is, he's pretty smart but he's lazy.” Well, you know how they dealt with lazy kids back then, you know it was— But yeah, it was very, very important to them. When there were Ukrainians and there was Poland. They were a minority there too, so they suffered a lot of discrimination and abuse in Poland as ethnic Ukrainians, they didn't have their own schools. They didn't have their own language, newspaper or books or anything they were sort of looked down upon and you know they were in this, hills. The foothills of the Carpathian Mountains, and I think they were looked upon and treated as hillbillies. They didn't have a lot of opportunities. Now people that lived in larger cities, that was different. Maybe they had more success, but for my parents it was tough, and so when they came to America, you know the fact that you know they didn't have to do anything special, actually we were required to go to school, so immediately we are in Kindergarten and going to school, and in Auburn we had a parochial school, it was the Ukrainian St. Paul Ukrainian Catholic school, so that's where they sent us. Then we went to the public school system, and then. My parents, my dad in particular, he would ask me, “What, how much education do you really need?” You know, and I said, “Well, I don't know,” but, because after, you know, first of all I'm going away to University, that was something that they weren't really too excited about, because when you go away you go away, you know, and they had gone away, and so they were really very focused on keeping us close. But I went away from Auburn to Syracuse, that's 27 miles away but it was like it was away. And then when I went, after I got out of the military and I said I was going to go for my Masters, again they didn't really comprehend why: “When are you finally going to go to work?” But that was, again, their mindset. It was beyond what they felt one needed.

EG: Did your siblings go away for school, as well, or did they stay close to your parents?

SW: Well my oldest sister went to the local community college, it was Auburn Community College at that point in time. Now it's I think, it's like Broome County, BCC, so she did that, and then I went away, my other sisters went away, my brother went away so you know it was sort of weaning you know a weaning process.

EG: So you were the first to leave?

SW: Actually leave? Yeah, which was, you know, but they, you know they were very, you know, proud of the fact, but they'd always say, so what is it that you do? But that went on even here, you know my mother-in-law, when she had just made—at that point my first job was with the US Department of Commerce in Washington, and she'd introduce me as her son in law who works for the Junior Chamber of Commerce, which was not quite the same, but again, people have trouble grasping it if they had never been there and done that.

ZN: So now I want to talk about—you said obviously you traveled a lot, so is there any place that you, specifically liked more than any others, or felt the most at home at, and do you have any interesting stories about your travels?

SW: Well, we don't have the time. I'm sure, you know every place, when you, on a foreign assignment representing the US government and doing the kind of work I did, you know, it's absolutely fascinating, and every country has its plusses and minuses, but you know for me, I think probably the most meaningful assignment was to go to Kyiv and, you know, that was from 92 to 95, when we were establishing the US embassy in Ukraine and established diplomatic relations with Ukraine. I had a tremendous sense of actually working for two countries, you know, doing you know our bidding for the US, at the same time, sharing my US experience with Ukrainian government officials and trying to encourage them with their transformation from a central planned economy to a free market economy. And my capacity, I was working as a senior commercial officer so we were bringing the US companies in to basically trade with Ukraine, to invest in Ukraine, and you know to this very day I'm still trying to help that process, so it was very very difficult, it was frustrating. You always wanted things to move more quickly. 25 years later they're still facing some of the same issues. What was particularly striking and interesting was that in places like Kyiv—it's commonly called, it’s “Kiev” in Russian context but “Kyiv” in Ukrainian, you know that was so Russified that you know we were more Ukrainian than they were in many respects. The Ukrainian people living under communism, you know, weren't, it was an Atheist country so they didn't have the kind of religious; you know, faith organizations or engagement as we grew up with. A lot of the traditions were no longer even practiced in Ukraine. In Kyiv, in the big cities, out in the villages I think they were still preserved, but my wife actually, she's in the memorial center now running the Pysanka workshop doing the Ukrainian Easter eggs. She did the same thing in Ukraine for Ukrainians because they had no idea. And actually during the Stalinist years, they would look at children's hands. If you had dyes on your hands, then they knew your family may be doing this evil thing, and doing you know making these Easter eggs which related to a Christian holiday, which could set you back quite a bit or you could even be punished for doing that, so living and working in Ukraine was an amazing experience, and you know, going back now I can see how much has changed, and I can still see how much further it has to go, and you know it's a beautiful country and we actually got to see firsthand you know, some of the things that we read about and heard about. We went to the theatre and you can see, you know, the performing artists, performing well-known Ukrainian operas and plays, Ukrainian dancers, and it's just really all kinds of different traditions that you can actually witness. So that was a great bonus on top of— I never worked harder in any job than there. I always used to tell people, you know, in Ukraine you need to work four times as hard to go half the distance, but it was what it was and it was just a thrill.

EG: While you were working there, did you hear any or witness any views about what they think about America? Did they have negative views of America, or was it positive?

SW: While we were there, people had positive, sometimes unrealistic views; you know they, you know everything, you know, in America, you know, money grew on trees and, you know, sort of the land of milk and honey, and they didn't really grasp how hard people really had to work in order to achieve what they got and earned, so you know, growing up in this socialist environment, you know, they say, well if you have it, why can't I have half of what you have, you know? Which is, and even going back to when my father was alive, and I went with him for the first time, they said, well, his family would say, “Well, you have more than one car.” And they go, “Well yeah, you know, like I have a car, Stephan has a car, and has a car,” and so at that point in time, we had three cars and the family [says], “Well, why do you need three cars? Why don't you send us one?” you know, and you know they were always wanting. But not understanding that, you know, it doesn't come that easy. And so I think there's those kinds of misconceptions, there’s, you know, and a lot of that is going into, you know what the biggest issue in that part of the world is now is, the greed is one real problem, corruption is another major problem. A lack of, you know charity, altruistic society, you know, when I was there it was, everybody was just scrambling to get whatever they could get, and that sort of legacy of the Soviet system, of, you know, if you were in line in the supply chain, then you would steal whatever you could, while you had the opportunity to do it. That's changed considerably in the last few years, especially since this Revolution of Dignity, and a lot of people, they are really, these civil society pushing for change. People of your generation who, you know, were born after the collapse of communism. They don't, they really didn't experience what that is. But that hangover is still there, and it really is, you know, a real drag on the country’s development. Now they've signed the association agreement with the EU, people are you know, which is basically a roadmap for them on how they should govern, how they should work, what the world standards are for everything from food products to the legal systems, and so the younger generation says you know like, we need to adopt that, and once we do then we can be competitive with the rest of the world, but there is a lot of vested interest that really depends on the status quo. So, it's a real struggle, and so they're confronting, you know, an external evil with Putin taking Crimea, invading Eastern Ukraine, and then the internal evil forces that are basic corruption and greed, a lack of rule of law that undermines progress and keeps it from moving as quickly as it could.

EG: When you were sort of like, traveling for your work, I assume you weren't as involved in a Ukrainian community as you were here. Is that, would you say that's true or not?

SW: No, no. You know, it varied—like in Ukraine, you were in Ukraine, so, like everything was Ukraine.

EG: Yeah.

SW: In Hungary, there wasn't that much, in Prague, you know, I'd meet some people, actually I had Secret Service come at me, through this Ukrainian sort of contact, and befriended me, so you couldn't really trust who is what and what was going on, but in places like Vancouver, you know you had a Ukrainian community there, in Toronto as well. Ottawa, same thing. And so and kind of the community like that, you're on assignment working at the US embassy in Ottawa for example. After you get settled, well, you know, Sunday we'll go to church, and then you meet, you know, other Ukrainians and they'll put you on their mailing list and tell you things that are going on or—so yeah, it's always there, and again, come Christmas and Easter and the holidays, you know, we'd invite our, even though we were American, we celebrated 4th of July, and have a huge reception and parties for that, in my work you know we had trade shows and we'd do all kinds of different events, waving the American flag, but then we had our Ukrainian holidays, we would invite embassy friends, and we'd invite people from the community, friends that we made, and share with them some of our Ukrainian culture in an American setting, and so it was, we're really promoters of things Ukrainian, and I think that just comes from the fact that Ukraine had been so overshadowed for so long, you almost feel like it's an obligation, to do that, to educate people and let them share a little bit of the Ukrainian history and culture.

ZN: Now, here would you say that most of the Ukrainian community revolves around the church, or are there other Ukrainian organizations?

SW:  Here it's, it's pretty much church-affiliated, there's a small group of people that are involved in the political way, the Ukrainian Congress Committee of America has a branch here, so, you know, we do flag-raising on Ukrainian independence day, to get a little press. You know the festivals that we do here, Sacred Heart does some festivals; we do, we try to promote a little bit of the Ukrainian thing, but it pretty much centers around the church. And a lot of it's apolitical—you know, actually, I'm probably more of an agitator than the rest because I want people to be aware of, you know, the plight of others and it's, you know, we're sort of in—sometimes we fade into la-la land, you know, we're just watching baseball and the NCAA tournament, which is great and all that, but we forget, we tend to forget about what's happening in the world around us. Just given my background experience and my work, my career, I think we have an obligation to at least know what's going on.

EG: Would you, do you think the Ukrainian community in Binghamton in general is a close-knit community, do you have a lot of involvement with each other?

SW: I, you know, I think over time, we are just sort of dissolving into the broader community, and that's a natural thing, you know we have a lot of mixed marriages now. We don't have the language. Our deacon, you heard it in church, he's not even Ukrainian, he married a young lady from our parish and he went to the seminary, and for him to get ordained he has to have, to be able to do the liturgy in Ukrainian. So he's working on his language, but with that one exception, no one really pays attention to it. So yeah we're basically losing it and other communities who have been blessed or have been able to receive the third wave of immigrants. My wife's grandparents were considered the first wave. My family when I came in was the second wave. And now you have the third wave, post-independence. They're coming here and, you know, some places, some cities, they have basically taken over the churches, the organizations and sort of revitalized all of them, and sort of given them sort of life extension that we don't have here. We're having trouble with even supporting this campus that I may have mentioned earlier because we, this church had like 300 people at one point. We're down to 130, and a third of them don't live in the area. Another third are octogenarians, and so that doesn't leave a whole lot of people to sustain this.

ZN: Well, I think that's all the time we have for questions, so thank you very much.

EG: Thank you!

SW: I hope I didn't overburden you.

EG: No! Not at all. It was very interesting.

(End of Interview)

2016-04-10

Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell

Stephan Wasylko

Stephan Wasylko was born in a displaced persons camp in Austria in 1948. His parents migrated to the United States with him and his sister in 1949 and they lived on a tobacco plantation in North Carolina. They later moved north and found factory jobs first in New Jersey and then in New York. Stephan received a degree from Syracuse University in International Relations and received a Masters from the University of Toronto. Stephan went into the Foreign Service after receiving his master’s degree and traveled around the world. After retiring Stephan and his wife moved to Binghamton in 2010.

60:37 minutes

English

Binghamton University

audio/mp4

Sound

Ukrainian Oral History Project

audio

Wasylko, Stephan.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Austria; Prisoner-of-war camps; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.)

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Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Refugee camps; Diplomatic and consular service; Auburn (N.Y.)