Interview with Svetlana Kolesnik

Interview with Svetlana Kolesnik

Kolesnik, Svetlana ; Sperber, Jake ; Kolesnik, Zach

Kolesnik, Svetlana.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Jews; Migrations; Persecution; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; City and town life--New York (State)--New York

Svetlana Kolesnik is an immigrant from Berdichev, Ukraine. She dealt with persecution growing up due to her religion and felt the only way to feel free was to leave her home country. She immigrated to the United States in 1989 with her husband. She came to the United States in hope to provide her children a better life and a Jewish education. She now lives in New City, New York where where she is active in the Jewish community with her husband and three children.

2016-03-31

In Copyright

Sveltana Kolesnik.m4a

2016-04-18

Ukrainian Oral History Project

58:51

Ukrainian Oral History Project

Interview with: Svetlana Kolesnik

Interviewed by: Jake Sperber and Zach Kolesnik

Transcriber: Jake Sperber and Zach Kolesnik

Date of interview: 31 March 2016 at 02:40 pm

Interview Setting: 31 Beaumont Drive New City, New York

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(Start of Interview)

Zach Kolesnik: Ok so we’ll be conducting this interview. My name is Zach Kolesnik. 

Jake Sperber: And I am Jake Sperber. 

Svetlana Kolesnik: And my name is Svetlana Kolesnik. 

ZK: And we are doing, conducting this interview in New City, New York. It is 2:40 PM right now and we will start the interview. 

JS: And it is Thursday March 31st, 2016. 

ZK: All right. 

JS: So you, uh, immigrated in 1989, and you were born in 1960. 

SK: No, I was born in, in 1963. 

JS: So, you spent 26 years under the USSR, I guess umbrella. 

SK: Correct. 

JS: Would you say like, what was the daily schedule for your life as a kid?

SK: As a kid we have school six times a week from Monday-Saturday from 8:30-2:15. And it’s every morning I would walk to school—there is no transportation, there is no buses. You have to walk to school, no matter where you live. So usually there is few schools in town and your parents, when you’re seven years old, sign you to schools nearby and you walk. My husband lived far away but we went to the same school, but school that we went to was one of the best schools in town so there was no like, school bus. 

JS: So there was no school bus, right. 

SK: There was public transportation, but again public transportation is not as prompt as here, for example, you take a train here and wait five minutes and the train is coming. There it can usually be a half hour, so you usually walk to places no matter what, sunny day, snowy day, rainy day—and school never closed, we always had school. No matter how many inches of snow we had, we always had school and everybody walked. And after school, um, I had activities, I went to the school of music, so three times a week I went to different school after regular school. And eh, you can play sports or other activities, and after you went to that school you came home and did homework. What school offers you, like if you have small kids, they have after-school programs for free, and I usually stayed in this program because both of my parents would work, and I stay until 5 o'clock and after that my mother or my sister would come pick me up and bring me home. We also had a lot of variety of sports and different activities that you can do after school in a different location. If you were not busy, there was always something to do after school. And also what we have different in the Ukraine, where I grew up, uh, we had like, after school I used to come home and play with my friends outside. And it was always, unless it was heavy rain, I would always go outside and play even if it was just for a half hour or something, me and my friends would go together and we would play some games. 

JS: Did you have uh, traditions that you would do as a kid? Like I guess we have Halloween and kids—I don't know, what were some of the things that— [pause] That would not happen at all? 

SK: We did not have traditions as a kid, but as a country we had a tradition to go on the parade, and it was mandatory so I can't say that this was tradition. 

ZK: Wait, when was the parade? 

SK: Parade was twice a year, parade was on May 1st and November 7th. On November 7th, this is when the great Revolution happened in 1917, and since that every year it’s mandatory, if you're in school or even in college and if you work, you have to go to the parade. And you walk in front of your, I don't know, local government people. But I don't know if it counts as tradition, and what usually would happen after that is my family would get together and stay together and just have a nice dinner together. 

ZK: And you would do that two times a year? 

SK: It was two times a year where we, you know, and also big holiday in Russia is New Year. We didn't celebrate any other holidays, we didn't celebrate any Christmas or Passover or Rosh Hashanah, we didn't—only New Year we celebrate. 

JS: So you’re saying that in the—religion wasn't a thing? 

SK: No. 

JS: Oh, because I have read that Eastern Orthodoxy was big in—

SK: No, no. It was not big deal, I mean some people celebrate, but people always were afraid to go to church because they could lose their job. So if you go to church, or go to synagogue, or mosques, there is no guarantee that the government won't know about this because as a country it was, it was an atheistic country, you know atheist. Even if you believed in God you didn't say, and if you practiced this or religion even in your family, nobody else can know about it because if people find out you can go to jail. 

ZK: So you practiced no religion whatsoever outside the house? 

SK: Yes, even in the house it was very quiet, like my parents did not want to know that my neighbor would know that we, we didn't have like any Passover dinner. We never had Passover. I mean we always had matzos but they were always hidden in the hidden place that nobody could find them like in the closets. Except when we ate them during Passover, but we never had dinner. 

ZK: So you guys wouldn't go to synagogue or church at all? Were there synagogues and churches around you? 

SK: Yeah, there were synagogues and churches around, and uh, first time in my life that I went to synagogue, uh, actually I went to synagogue in Russia twice. Once when my grandma died, and I went to synagogue to bury her and carry out the dues of the Jewish religion. And second time I went to Moscow before we left Russia and we had already gotten permission from the Russian government to leave country. When we went to go buy ticket to leave the country, we went to synagogue a second time.

JS: Uh, I just have a question, for the children in Russia are there very high expectations? Do their parents have very high expectations for them? 

SK: Yes. 

JS: Yeah, parents have very high expectations in school, and excel in after school activities like music and sports. 

SK: Yes absolutely, and also every parent wants their child to succeed. And some kids are gifted and some kids are not so gifted but parents try to do as much as they can to kids this way they have better opportunity to find better job and make a better life. This is why a lot of kids go to college, and it's hard for you. There is also option, especially for boy—in Russia if you're a boy it’s mandatory, if you’re 18 years old, to go to the army unless you’re in college. If you're not accepted to college you go to army, and the army in Russia is a nightmare so you do not want to be in the army no matter what. Especially for boys. 

JS: Were any of your family members in the army? 

SK: My family, my cousin went to the army because he did not go to college so he went to the army. Like my husband was in the army for three months but he already graduated from college and during the college years he had like a special subject, military science, and he went as an officer. So it wasn't as bad and I mean my husband is very physically fit so it wasn't hard, it was hard for him but not as hard as it is for the rest of the people. So this is why parents spend a lot of time, they want kids and they don't their kids to have to go to the army. 

ZK: Ok, so how is it like when you were immigrating to the United States? 

SK: How I immigrated to the United States? 

ZK: Yeah, how was the process like? 

SK: The process in Russia was, uh, actually you have to apply for, and you apply to Russian/Ukraine government—Soviet Union government. You apply, saying what you want to do, “I want to leave this country and I want to give up my citizenship.” In order for me to give up my citizenship there is a few things that have to be done. First of all, if you have parents who are alive, they have to sign a paper saying that they are allowing you to leave the country. Because if one parent, even if you’re fifty years old it doesn't matter—if you have a living parent they have to sign the papers saying they allow you to leave country. Second of all, you have to pay a lot of money, because my husband and I went to college and back in Russia you didn't pay for college, college was for free, if you were a good student you didn't pay. So we have to pay a lot of money in order for us to leave country. But even after you pay this money it does not give you guarantee that Russian government will let you leave country so there is also always possibility that they will not, Russian government will not let you stay in country, I mean let you leave country because, and this is a problem because you don't have a job and nobody is going to hire you if you already have applied to leave the country, but we were lucky and in 1989 a lot of people left, and also a lot in Russia is about connections and we were lucky that the person who was in charge of this was my neighbor. The guy who let people leave the country lived in our small town, so he help us out and we waited for a few months.

JS: Did you know that you wanted to leave Russia before 1989 though? 

SK: Yeah but we couldn't, we couldn't because in 1988 they let first group of people leave country. Before you couldn't; before if you wanted to leave Russia you couldn't even apply, they wouldn't let anybody out of the country. The first immigration happened in 1972, from 1972-1974 where a few families were lucky to leave country and move to Israel or the United States. 

JS: Wait, you just said they were lucky? 

SK: Yeah, because if you apply and they close borders, you stuck in Russia with no job, with no money, with nothing. 

JS: So, it sounds like you aren't too fond of Russia. 

SK: I wasn't fond in Russia? 

JS: Like, you don't, like, sound like you speak too highly of Russia. 

SK: Listen, I can't say that I, it was, we grew up in country and we weren't allowed to go to different country. If you were to say, "You know what, I am going to go live in Australia for 6 months," then there is a process, you can go and try to apply for visa, and you either like or don't like it and you can come back. In Russia there is nothing like this. First of all in Russia there was only two Russian channels on TV, there was one in Russian and one in Ukrainian, because I lived in Ukraine, and we would listen morning to night to this Russia propaganda. You can't go to different country, you just can't buy ticket and go to different country, it was a whole process. But when we left in 1989, we applied and we wait for a few months, and after that you wait for 3 months or 4 months, and there was a problem to buy ticket too. And to get from Russia to buy ticket is also a process—I mean, I don't think it is easy for you to understand that we travel all the way to Moscow to stay, every morning, 6 o'clock in the morning my husband and I went to place to check out and we stay in a line and every day they say, "Okay we are going to sell a hundred tickets." For three weeks we went to this place until we got to the place where we could buy tickets ’cause there was limited amount of tickets, there was a lot of people and it just, everything was complicated. So we got permission and we also got permission to travel to Vienna, we got a visa from Vienna and we also went through, at that time it was Czechoslovakia, and that's it. You know, first of all when you leave Russia you aren't allowed to take money. The amount of money you're allowed to take is $146 per person. Even if you have more money you can't take this money with you, so you buy jewelry at home. 

ZK: Together $146, or each person can take $146? 

SK: Each person can take $146, so you go with this money, you exchange your Russian Rubles, you're allowed to take $146. You can take two bags of clothes or whatever and you start your life in a different country; if you’re young it really doesn't matter, you can start life in any new country. 

ZK: So, did you just leave whatever you had behind at your parent's house? 

SK: Yes, we left whatever we had.

ZK: You just left all the valuables? 

SK: No, I mean we took, like, we took everything: clothes, anything, whatever you, we could fit. We took even pan, I mean we took plates; we took silverware, because I had no money to buy different things in the different country. I lived, before I came to America for three months I lived in a different country so I had no money to go to the store and buy plates. So I had to bring my plates, my silverware, my cup, blankets, everything, pillow, whatever you can. We were very limited in everything, but this is how it was to live. And first we went to Austria, to Vienna, and first we stayed there. 

ZK: This is when you were immigrating? 

SK: Yeah, we took the train to Vienna. 

ZK: Oh you did not even fly. 

SK: No, no we came to Vienna, HIYAS, its an organization with the Israeli and American government, and they met us in Vienna and they made arrangements for us to stay in a hotel and uh, we went to this hotel where we stayed for two or three weeks. Then we went to the American Embassy and we asked to be a legal refugee of the country. And they said to us, “In order for us to process your paper you have to move to a different country, you have to move to Italy and you have to wait until we’ll give you permission to come to live in America.” So we took a train to live in Italy and we stayed in Italy for two months. 

ZK: Did you work? How did you communicate with people? You only knew Ukrainian and Russian. 

SK: Yes, we did not speak English or Italian and we did not speak any German, but luckily my husband likes languages so he learned Italian and he got a job and they paid him $1 an hour and he built parks. You know like from town to town, like spring break usually here in Rockland County, people come and play and go to the circus. So because my husband is big and strong, they hire him to build this, so he travel for, like he used to come to a town and help guide this and put it together, and guys would stay in this place for one week and then move to a different town and build another, so for us it was kind of income. And he also went on the field to collect grape. 

JS: So it was very difficult to move from Russia before 1989--.

SK: I am telling you it is not easy to move now also. It’s just people have a little bit more money so they people move for money in Russia. 

JS: Do you know a lot of people who have successfully moved from Russia? 

SK: Sure. 

JS: Yeah? 

SK: Absolutely, all my friends, a lot of my friends. First of all when we moved to Russia, what happened, we met a lot of—you know, when you in circumstances like this, you don't speak any language, you are alone, you meet people that become friends for all life. And people, the people that we met in Austria and in Italy, we still keep in touch with and still in a good relationship with, and I would say most of them become very successful and build families, and raise kids, and now they have grandchildren so it worked out.

ZK: Did most people only try to immigrate to the United States? Was the United States your only option or did you try immigrating to, for instance Israel or another country.

SK: In order for you to leave Russia, unless you have a relative or a first cousin. Only if you have a first cousin in America and invites you to go to live with him in America, you can do it. (Like Lennie Levine) The rest of the people had Israeli visa, the process was if you have Israeli visa you go directly to Russian government and say, “I want to live in Israel because I am Jewish,” or if you are not Jewish, if you are a Christian you say you want to live in a different country, but they also took Israeli visas saying you want to live in Israel. But when you come to Vienna, Austria, you can go to the Israeli consulate and say that you would like to try to live in a different country and they had no problem with whatever you wanted to do. What they did was basically help Russian people just to leave country, and this was the only one exit that would let you leave the Soviet Union if you have an Israeli visa. 

JS: It was Vienna? 

SK: No, no it was an Israeli visa but the reason why we went to Vienna, because Israel made arrangements with Vienna that Russian people are going to come to this country and they were going to help them out. You couldn't go to different country, you would have to go through this path. 

ZK: And you had a first cousin that was in the United States? 

SK: No, we did not have first cousin in the United States, we had Israeli visa. And from when we lived in Italy, we were looking for different possibilities, and one of the possibility was to go to Australia, but in order to go to Australia you have to pay $500 and you have to be approved by Australian government, and you have to have $500 and somebody that would guarantee when you come to Australia they’re going to help you out. We didn't have $500, but they really like us because my husband and I both graduated from college. We were young, we were twenty years old, so they offered us to go to this country, but because we didn't have money we decided we are going to stay in Italy and move to the United States.

JS: Do you think that, um, wait I just want to shift the discussion, do you think that you raised your kids differently than you were raised in Russia? 

SK: Sure I raised my kids differently than I was raised. 

JS: What are some of the differences from like how a kid is raised in Russia and how a kid is raised in America?

SK: My parents did not have to remind me that I have to put garbage outside. I have to remind my kids every Wednesday and every Saturday, you know what it's your time to do something in the house. Because in Russia it is different, kids do much more in the house to help parents. As a child, during the summer when I did not have school I went to market to buy fresh fruits and vegetables to bring home to save my mother a little bit of time so she doesn't have to do this. She used to do this every day all year round, before she went to work she would go to the market to buy stuff, so during the summer I would help her out. I would go with Mother to the market and get the stuff and bring it home so I could help her out. I, also what was a difference, like during the summer time, where we live, it was a nice river and all young people hung out at the beach, so I knew every day at 12:30 I would have to go and prepare lunch for my parents, because my parents had lunch from 1-2 and they came for lunch home almost every day. So as a kid I know I would have to prepare lunch for them. 

ZK: There was no sleepaway camps? 

SK: There was sleepaway camps. I went to sleepaway camp twice and the first time I went with my older sister and the second I went by myself and I like it. But also not every child could go, you have to pay for sleepaway camp and it's expensive so not every child could afford it.

ZK: Was it in Ukraine? 

SK: Yeah, yeah it was in Ukraine, and the sleepaway camp was a little bit different then it is here. Here you have a choice, if you want to go to this camp you go to this camp. In Russia you go to sleepaway camp at a base where your parents work. If your parents work on the plant and this plant has sleepaway camp, you don't have a choice of where you go to sleepaway camp. So where my parents worked, sleepaway camp was far away so I did not want to go, but I went twice or three times. 

JS: Uh, are you, like, happy that you didn't live in Russia—you lived in—would it have been much harder to live in Russia than the Ukraine? 

SK: Uh, Russia and the Ukraine, I think it was easier to live in the Ukraine than in Russia because, first of all it is easier because Ukraine is more like fruits and vegetables you can buy on the market; in Russia there is limitation. 

JS: Oh, like rationing. 

SK: Right and the quality of the product, you know what you can afford. Life in the Ukraine at that time, where I grew up, I think was better than in Russia, and it was, it was not like supermarkets, it was like small stores where you go in and buy stuff, but difference between Russia and America is there wasn't a lot of variety. If you go to stores there was two or three kinds of bread, and if you want to have fresh bread you would have to go at 6 o'clock in the morning, if you come at 11 then there is no bread.

JS: Is that in the Ukraine? 

SK: Yeah and the same in Russia, it's the same in Russia. The difference in Russia is that there is few big cities like Moscow or Leningrad, so in those cities you can go to store, maybe you can buy a little bit more in a government store because back in Russia or Ukraine everything belonged to the government, we did not have supermarkets that belonged to a private person. 

ZK: Um to go back to schooling, how was—how was it like, did you go to—you lived in Ukraine, so did you go to a Ukraine school or did you go to a Russian where they taught the first language as Russian or Ukrainian? 

SK: Ok, in the city that I lived it was two choices—I grew up in Berdychiv, Ukraine. You can go to Russian school or you can go to Ukrainian school, but like before war, it was also Polish school because a lot of Polish people lived in Ukraine too, it's close to Poland. But when I went to school it was either Russian school or Ukrainian school. I went to Russian school. But from 2nd grade I had second language as Ukrainian, but all subject were taught in Russian. Where you can go to a Ukrainian school also and all subject would be taught in Ukrainian and you have Russian as a second language. The reason why my parents sent me to a Russian school is because first of all, we spoke Russian at home, and second of all there were more chances for me to go to college to Russia, for example, because my first language was Russian. And again it was a limit on how many people can go to college, and as a Jew it was not easy to get to college even if you had all "A" marks.

ZK: You would have to put it down on your transcript? 

SK: Yes on my transcript, and then when you go with your passport it is written on it that I am a Jew. 

JS: Was it very prejudiced?

SK: Yes. 

JS: Even in the Ukraine also? 

SK: Yes it was in Russia, Ukraine it was everywhere. So if you go to college and they said they can take 100 kids, but we only allowed to take 3% Jew, so you have to be smarter than all Jewish kids in order for you to get to this college because they can only take 3 people. And also in Russia you can't apply to 25 schools like you apply here, here you apply to college there is no limit, you can apply to every SUNY school or any school. There is no limit on how many applications you send, it is just how much money you want to spend on the application. In Russia, you can only apply to one school and if you're not accepted you have to wait another year and you have to apply again. 

JS: So those kids go to the army? 

SK: For boys you go to army, for girls you work somewhere. 

ZK: Wow, to go on top of that as well—as girls, if you did not get accepted into schools would you have to go to the army? 

SK: No, as girl I don't have to. 

ZK: Were there girls that went to the army? 

SK: No. 

ZK: No girls went to the army?  

SK: No, no girls don't go to the army but you can work in the army if you want. Like if you want you can work in the kitchen, or if you really want maybe you can apply to be in the army but I know nobody, it was unheard of. 

JS: Have you, um, since you left in 1989, have you returned? 

SK: Yes. 

JS: Yeah, how was going back for the first time? 

SK: The first time I took all my kids to the town where I grow up, we spend like one day there and second time I went with Zachary and we went to Russia, we went to Moscow, we went to Leningrad, and Berdychiv, and I think that we had a great time, he had a little bit of a taste of Russia and a little bit of a taste of Ukraine, and we traveled, we took public transportation everywhere so for him, so I think that it was good for him. 

JS: Now so I know you left legally from Russia, but if you were a person that maybe escaped would you go back still today? Would you ever think about returning? 

SK: No, even now I would not want to go to Russia. 

JS: Would they like, try to capture you though, if you were illegal?

SK: They might. Yeah. They might. I mean I left as legal, but even if I go back to Russia, first of all I always need a visa. If I want to go to this country I have to apply for visa. And second of all, you know, you never know what happens, it is not a stable country so I would not take a chance. Especially now I will not go. 

JS: But since you're legal you can take your kids. 

SK: Yes, my kids can go, but we don't plan on going now. 

JS: Also, now do you want to segue again, I guess? 

ZK: Sure. 

JS: Do you want to elaborate on the culture? In one of our classes we were talking about the differences between the US and Russia and, uh like, just the differences between Russian lifestyle and values and American values. Like for instance, one kid in our class brought up that, like, his drink a lot, and like, I do not know if that's a thing. He is Russian. 

SK: It is not that they drink a lot, but it is part of the Russian culture. Where like, if there was a holiday, sometimes people drink lots. Not that you have to but they drink, and another thing, why people drink a lot is because back in Russia life is so bad. So it helps you get over all the bad things that have happened. But it's not like mandatory, it’s not like all Russian people drink. This is not true. Some people, there is a lot of alcoholics, yes, but again, it is happening maybe more than in America. 

JS: What about, like, Russian values—like, America, I know we are big on, like, sports and music and entertainment, is that prevalent in Russia? I know you guys love hockey. 

SK: Yeah, when I grew up it was different because all sports that you play, you play for free, you don't pay for it but if you talented, you talented, you can play sports. If you're not talented there is no way, even if you enjoy this sport nobody is going to spend time with you. So you’re out, you can do this for yourself, like here I know my Zachary and all my kids play basketball, and maybe they were not the best at this, but you know they play anyway. You go and you have fun, you enjoy, you don't have to be the best, you can just enjoy this game. In Russia competition is so bad that you have to be number one. 

JS: So competition is a big part of Russian lifestyle? 

SK: Absolutely. It's like saying do it no matter what you have to do. But people also like movies, they go a lot out, they like movies, they like traveling, they give kids good educations. And I sense that also in Russia people travel a lot, especially now. 

ZK: You mean like travel throughout the country, I know people aren't allowed to leave the country. 

SK: Yes, they travel around the country a lot, like my parents used to take me like every year to somewhere in the Ukraine. Just go to mountains resort or somewhere, just to see different areas. Also different in Russia is the difference between Ukrainian Russian kids and American kids. As a kid I would have to work on the field. 

ZK: On the farm?

SK: On the farm, like I grew up in a town so we didn't have any farm, but they used to pick us up on buses, drive a half hour to the farm and you would do whatever is asked of you, you would pick potatoes, pick carrots. 

JS: Who were you working for? 

SK: The government, it is the same in the college. You go to college mandatory in the fall. You go and then, on your free time you pick up potatoes, you pick up carrots. 

ZK: Wait, this is on your free time? Like when you were away from school? 

SK: Yes, so like, you have break, but we don't have break, you have to go and work on the farm. It is not only when you were a kid, when I graduated from university and I got a job also in a different town, even I had like Master in Science and I would still have to go and work for the field. So it did not matter what position you had, you had to go and work on the field. And I remember once we went to pick up carrot, and all day you go and you take those stupid carrot, and I close my eyes and the only dream I had was going to the field and picking up those carrots and I hated it, and potato also not easy because potato is small and you have to go and put it in the bucket, and then you have to go somewhere with the bucket and it’s very heavy. Also, in Russia they count how much buckets of potato you get. It is not like you are going for fun, you are going to get the most potato. 

JS: So, they even make that competition? 

SK: It is not competition, but you have to bring, for example, 100 buckets of potatoes a day. So you go and you work as a slave because you have to do it. As a kid can you imagine having to work in the garden? This was different, this was mandatory, and for a lot of kids it was normal but I grew up in a town, for kids that grew up in the village the mandatory work was all summer to help parents on the field.

ZK: Did they get paid? 

SK: No. As a kid, you never pay your kid. 

JS: Do you think that this still goes on today? 

SK: I am not sure, I sense that I have no idea. I do not know if this happens today. I am sure that kids help parents now too. But it depends on the family. 

JS: Have you been back to the Ukraine? 

SK: Yes, I went with Zachary once, we stayed for three days in Moscow also, and three days in St. Petersburg, and two in the town where I grew up. In the summer, we went to the river where there was a beautiful beach and we took a swim. It was nice, there probably was all the people at the beach stare at Zachary because he is American. 

JS: How do they know? 

SK: Because you can see. You can see. But when we went places I would ask people directions and he would stay far away. 

JS: Do they not like Americans? 

SK: I would say that they do not like Americans. 

JS: Why not? 

SK: You have to ask Russian people.

JS: Why do you think? 

SK: Because part of the Russian culture and the way that Russian propaganda works they say that Russia is the best. We have the best cars, the best people, the best product. They do not like when somebody better than they are so even if they have nothing they still see themselves as the best. But Russia also very rich. Like there are many museums and concerts where my parents would take me to. 

JS: What was it like growing up in a time like the Cold War for you? 

SK: I was a small kid. 

JS: Did you not like the United States? Because I can imagine that Russia would try to use propaganda to turn you against us. 

SK: It is also from your family, like my parents would never talk about this, but I knew that they were not a big fan of Russian government. The way how sometimes they would talk about Russian government, but they were afraid to say the truth to me, so you go to school and keep your mouth shut. 

ZK: And what would they say in school? 

SK: They would say that Russia is the best country in the world. 

JS: So, how did you not buy into that? 

SK: Because it—also, back in Russia there was a program on the radio that was illegal, it was called Voice of America. It was in Russian language. Russian government did not like people to listen, but my father would listen to this every morning. He used to wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning and for a half hour just to listen very quietly, because he does not want any neighbors to know that he listen to this radio station. 

JS: What was it? 

SK: It was Voice of America, voice from United States. 

JS: Wait so it was at 3:30 in the morning for a half hour every day? 

SK: Yes, almost everyday. But you don't hear a good connection because Russian government would try to put something to block it. 

JS: What would they talk about on the radio show? 

SK: On the radio show, for example, when the President of Russia died, Leonid Brezhnev, in 1980, my father woke up and told me in the morning that Brezhnev died. I say listen to Russian TV, he is still alive. And he said no I listened to Voice of America and they said that he died yesterday. They said the truth about Russia, they said the truth about America and some people believe in this more, some people believe in this less. Some people want to build life in Russia, I have relatives in Russia who still live in Ukraine and they still think that this is the best country and they will never ever leave this country and they have nothing. And it is not only financially, forget about financially, because as poor as they are in Russia not everybody is poor, they have a lot of rich people now. But they had no values, they never go to synagogue, they are afraid to practiced Judaism, they did not raise kids to be Jewish, but they do not care, they just want to live in this country. Not everybody is ready for change, for us, my husband and I, it was easy, we were young and we had no kids. For people who are a little bit older, you have to understand they already built life in Russia, they already achieved something, they have good job, they have good position, they have maybe an apartment, they have kids—when you go to a different country it is not easy. You do not speak the language, so how are you going to find a job? Who wants to hire you if you do not have any experience in America? You can be genius but you have to explain to people that you know this and that you can work better than somebody else. So it was not easy to start life in a different country but if you have this, if you want to achieve this and you stick to this you can achieve it no matter what country you go to and what you do. If you go to college and you say maybe this is not the best college or maybe this is not the best environment but I want to be an accountant or I want to be an electrician if you stick to a goal you can achieve it no matter where you are. The same comes from people in different countries, they come here; my first job was I worked in the fruit and vegetables store as a sales rep. And I did not say anybody that I had a master degree—I did not want them to know, I thought that they would not hire me—but what it gave me was the opportunity to meet new people and to talk to people about everything I needed to know, even about apples. In the place I grew up we had two types of apples, and here there is twenty types of apples so I learned a lot. I met a lot of people that helped me out with the language, talking to customers helped me with the language. And when we first got to the country I was pregnant with my first son and while my husband did not have a job he made sure that every day he would learn twenty new words. And every day, he would wake up at six o'clock in the morning and study until two o'clock in the morning every day. Just to learn how to read and how to write and just how to communicate with people to find any job to survive. And eventually he got a job as an engineer after a few years and he work a lot of different jobs in America like in the supermarket and a lot of different jobs. But one day he got a job as an engineer and then he got his license in America, he passed all tests in English to get his license and he is licensed to practice in all tri-state area now. Another difference between Russia and America, since I have children here, if you have a child here you out of work for 6 weeks. In Russia it is different; in Russia if you have a child you get paid and miss a year and a half of work. For one year they pay you full salary and for a half of a year they give you like a half salary. And if you have another child you can stay home for another year, also you have two months before you give birth, so they care about newborns because when you have a newborn it is very hard to take care of that child and put it in a daycare at six weeks old. But when your child is almost two years old it is a different story. Like my sister she has two kids and didn't work. She had her first kid and didn't work for two years and had another kid another two years later. So, this way you stay more time with your family. And you will still keep your job.

JS: And you like this about Russia? 

SK: Yes I like this about Russia, and another thing I like about Russia is kids do not have to make arrangements with each other. You know, “Can my son come over and play with your son tomorrow at three after school?” Where I grew up I never asked my parents if I can go to my friends' house. What I would do after school is go outside, knock on my friends' door and we would play and have fun. And my kids from my childhood are still best friends to this day, it is incredible. 

JS: I thought it was surprising when you said that not many people are religious in Russia, because actually people in our class that did not have anybody to interview are actually going to an Orthodox Ukraine church in Vestal, um, is religion a big propaganda in Russia also? 

SK: A lot of changes happened after I left in 1990, a lot of churches and synagogues and mosques opened and people started to pray again. Maybe 70% of Russian people go to church now, when I grew up maybe 5% of Russian people went to church and—

ZK: Who went? 

SK: Only older people who did not work anymore so they were not afraid to go. I'll tell you one more thing that is very different between Russia and the United States. Every year they go to school and get a new set of classmates. In Russia the classmates you get in first grade are the same classmates you are going to graduate with in the 10th grade. The class does not change. It is the same thirty kids in the school. 

ZK: Even if they move? 

SK: If they move then to another school it is a different story. But I went to the same school, with the same kids, and went in the same class from first grade until tenth grade. So, I made lifelong friends.

JS: Would you say a lot of your friends are in Russia or elsewhere? 

SK: Some still live in Russia, some in other countries, but we all keep in touch because we are so close. That is what going to school from first-tenth grade does to you. In Russia, you stick with your group, you do not get to have other classmates. This can be a good and a bad thing. 

ZK: You said you went to school from first to tenth grade, not first to twelfth grade? 

SK: Yes, when I went to school it was very different, I am not sure if it is the same now. When I grew up in Russia you had ten years in school. We had elementary school from first to third grade, middle school until eighth grade, and high school was nine and ten. After eighth grade people have a choice, they can go to school of engineering school or different school, you don't have to stay in school till 10th grade. But you do not have to go to college, after eighth grade you go to a high school with specialty. I went to school till tenth grade. My husband did a specialty school after tenth grade, but not after eighth grade where he did engineering. Like here we have something called books where it is a trade school and it is the same thing but it is four years here like if you want to be a registered nurse. Here you go to college, in Russia after eighth you can go to school to become a nurse.

JS: How old is an eighth grader?

SK: You start school when you are seven years old and graduate at seventeen—also break, there are different breaks during school year.

JS: Wouldn't you go to the farm?

SK: Not during full year.

ZK: When would you go to school? 

SK: School started September 1st and ended in June. And then in July and August you could do whatever you want.

JS: When do you go to the fields?

SK: And in the fall you would work in the fields because it was mandatory and that is when the harvest is. 

JS: Again, we are segueing again, but how do you view Russia, like politically? Do you think they are acting as aggressors? Do you think there will be a second Cold War? Are you in favor with Putin and his policy?

SK: I am not a favor of Putin, I sense he is corrupt. 

JS: Did you like Gorbachev? 

SK: Yes I like Gorbachev, but I do not like Putin now because he thinks that he is tsar. 

JS: So you would call Putin a tsar? You think he is running Russia in an old fashion way? 

SK: Yes I think he is a tsar, I do not like what he did to Ukraine, I thought that it was not fair, because so many innocent people died and I still think Russia is a corrupted country, along with Ukraine. Both are very corrupt. I do not think that Russian politics right now, I mean the government, is not nice. I do not like it. Also not a lot of people in Russia support Putin. There is opposition. 

JS: It does not seem like he is being from power anytime soon though? 

SK: No, no you're right, he wants to be President of Russia forever. Putin is second Stalin. Some people say he is progressive, yes some views of his are good, but at the same time you cannot trust him and you do not know what he will do and we'll see.

ZK: Finally segueing back your decision to come to the United States, was it the best decision that you made? 

SK: Yes, this was the best decision I made in my entire life, I have no regrets, I do not care how hard it was, it was definitely a great decision. It was a great opportunity for my husband and I to live in this country. Also I would not have three children because in Russia it is very hard to have more than one child because you cannot afford it. It was hard for parents to raise kids. But it was best decision for what happened. We have different lifestyle, yes, but I say every day it was a great decision. There is even a holiday in our family, every year on November 3rd or the day we came to America we have a nice dinner and eat dinner together. Most of my kids moved on and we are happy we left. We have a lot of friends here and I would say that as much as people complained, in the end everybody that I know that came here does not regret coming here. Sometimes people don't appreciate how good they have until they go to a different country. 

JS: Is there a nice American Russian community in Rockland County?

SK: Yeah, not many people in my neighborhood, there is only two of them and we just met them and we have been living here for ten years—but we have a lot of Russian friends.

JS: Final thoughts?

SK: Sometimes people do not appreciate what they have until they leave the country. But Russia is a very rich history and with a bunch of nice people.

ZK: Not to Americans?

SK: I can't say not to Americans, the Russian government is not nice to the government. But a lot of Russian people like American people. For example, me and Zachary went to St. Petersburg about seven years ago. We had plans and we only had three days to accomplish everything and one day it was going to rain so went to place number one and we had to take a boat to the second place because we were late. We asked a lady on a street and she gave us directions but we got lost again. We got lost again and she drove her car and told us to hop in her car and she will give us a ride. It was very nice and she drove us to the boat where it took us to a nice place outside of town. Also, in Russia there is a lot of history, like when you walk on the street, you can see the history and a lot monuments and a lot of nice building and museums, and people are very nice and warm.

ZK: You don't really hear that often.

JS: The rhetoric.

SK: We went to my hometown where all my classmates who still live in this town, we came together for one night and we all got together and took us to a nice place and restaurant and we had a great dinner and great time. They are very helpful with each other.

ZK: So you are saying they are very caring?

SK: Very caring people.

ZK: That's because that's how you guys were raised?

SK: Yes, because schools and family values.

ZK: Ok, so that is the concluding of this interview.

JS: Thank you so much.

ZK: Thank you so much.

SK: My pleasure and if you have any of your questions please give me a call and I will answer your questions.

ZK: We are concluding this interview at 3:39 and have a great day.

JS: Thank you.

(End of Interview)

2016-03-31

Jake Sperber and Zach Kolesnik

Sveltana Kolesnik

Svetlana Kolesnik is an immigrant from Berdichev, Ukraine. She dealt with persecution growing up due to her religion and felt the only way to feel free was to leave her home country. She immigrated to the United States in 1989 with her husband. She came to the United States in hope to provide her children a better life and a Jewish education. She now lives in New City, New York where where she is active in the Jewish community with her husband and three children.

58:51 minutes

English

Binghamton University

audio/mp4

Sound

Ukrainian Oral History Project

audio

Kolesnik, Svetlana.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Jews; Migrations; Persecution; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; City and town life--New York (State)--New York

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Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Jews