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Interview with Rosalind Baxandall

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Contributor

Baxandall, Rosalyn, 1939-2015 ; McKiernan, Stephen

Description

Rosalyn Baxandall (1939 - 2015) was a feminist historian, activist, author and educator. She was one of the leading figures of the feminist movement in New York during the late 1960s. Baxandall received her Bachelor's degree in French at University of Wisconsin and her Master of Social Work at Columbia University.

Date

2010-07-29

Rights

In Copyright

Date Modified

2017-03-14

Is Part Of

McKiernan Interviews

Extent

111:24

Transcription

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Rosalind Baxandall
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Shah Islam
Date of interview: 29 July 2010
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(Start of Interview)

0:04
SM: Are you ready?

0:05
RB: Yes.

0:06
SM: [inaudible] I will continue to check this too. Who were your role models when you were growing up, who were the teachers or parents or leaders that helped you become the person that you are today? What inspired you even before you went to college?

0:23
RB: Okay, well, in some ways, my grandmother who had talked to me about marching and suffragette parades, my mother's mother. And also, she inspired me because her husband died when she was very young, leaving her with three young children, and she first took in sewing. And then she got a GED. And then she became a lawyer. And the fact that she was female, and a lawyer, and did not have a husband supporting her was inspirational to me. And she also used to go on very exotic trips. I mean, they seemed exotic to me, they would not. The world is smaller now. Like to Argentina. She would go on these trips alone. And so, she seemed extremely adventurous… to me. And then… other role mo— I mean, most of the role models were in my family. My father was a role model since he had been a communist and labor organizer and then changed his life and became a doctor.

2:15
SM: So, you had the inspirations—

[crosstalk 2:17]
SM: —really,
RB: Within my family.

2:18
SM: Right.

2:19
RB: I would say they were really within my family. Rather than people outside. Not my teachers, particularly. When I got to college, my teachers were inspirations.

2:32
SM: Now, where did you go to school and the teachers—

2:36
RB: When I went to scho— The University of Wisconsin.

2:37
SM: Great school.

2:41
RB: I had many inspirational teachers, now let me— In American history, I have this man who taught us through using documents, and I cannot even believe that I cannot think of his name now. Anyway— William Appleman Williams. He was a real inspiration. My French teacher who I had a job working for. [inaudible] She was inspirational. I used to talk to her a lot. She had had an affair with Camus. And so it was really—

[crosstalk 3:17]
RB: —interesting that
SM: [inaudible] Really, affair?
RB: Yeah. Oh yeah.
SM: Ha-ha, oh my God!

3:19
RB: I mean yeah. She had been a lover of Camus. And I mean, it is written about.

3:24
SM: Wow.

3:25
RB: So, she knew Camus and Sartre.

3:28
SM: Wow.

3:29
RB: And I majored in French, and— Simone de Beauvoir was a real… was somebody that I looked up to.

3:40
SM: She wrote The Second Sex—

3:41
RB: —Second Sex.

3:42
SM: Yeah.

3:43
RB: And I had first seen The Second Sex in my parents’ house, because I thought it was a sex book. There was a man and a woman on the cover.


3:53
SM: Right.




3:55
RB: Not dressed, so— and it was called The Second Sex. So I thought it was a sex book, and I was very curious about it. And read it. And I read it, like a guide to life. And I have my original book at home and every other word is underlined.

4:14
SM: Hard to find first editions of that book.

4:16
RB: Yeah, and I do not know if it was the first edition—

4:18
SM: They are reprinting it now. Just came out reprinted.

4:19
RB: Oh I know, a new… a new translation.

4:22
SM: Oh wow.

4:23
RB: So that was very inspirational to me.

4:25
SM: Mhm. What did… what inspired you to become a feminist? Were you part of the new left antiwar movement—

[crosstalk 4:31]
RB: Yes. I was.
SM: —when you were younger, or−

4:33
RB: Yeah, I was part of the new left. I mean, I was not a major part. I worked on a magazine called Yet Report. I translated things from the French. I went on active— the antiwar movements. I was also, I worked for mobilization for youth, and I was active in Welfare Rights. Even in high school. I went to Philadelphia, with the Quakers and worked in slums on weekends helping people clean. And then I remember going to a night court, which was really an incredible experience. This was in Philadelphia.

5:21
SM: Mhm.


5:22
RB: Then I went, in hi— this was still in high school, up to Connecticut, where they had nuclear submarines. And we did civil resistance in front of these submarines.

5:42
SM: I think that is where the Berrigans went one time I think—

5:44
RB: Yeah, well it was a, it was a−
SM: Yeah.
RB: …place to go.
SM: Yeah.

5:47
RB: And so I did that in high school, too. So I was already… active. But if— none of my friends did this in high school, I was very different than anyone else. I mean, no one I knew in high school was political.

6:03
SM: Where did you go— what state, did you go to school in New York? Or−

6:06
RB: In New York.

[crosstalk 6:07]
RB: Yeah.
SM: Right.

6:08
RB: In New York. Yeah. I mean, people that I knew were political. I mean, it was the late (19)50s. They were not political.

6:15
SM: One other thing, I have interviewed Susan Brown Miller, and I have interviewed quite a few people. And what— The difference between mainstream feminism and radical feminism, correct me if I am wrong, the radical feminists were more of the new left feminine—

6:31
RB: The New Left feminists.

6:32
SM: But—
RB: I was definitely a New Left—

6:34
SM: Betty Friedan is the mainstream that was—
RB: —stream. Yes

6:37
SM: Ms. Magazine may be more of the—
RB: —mainstream—
SM: —mainstream. [inaudible] Friedan—

6:42
RB: Right. We wanted to change the whole of society, not integrate into it. We did not want better jobs in the society, we really wanted to change the society. So, we were part of the New Left.

6:57
SM: Right.

6:58
RB: And it was just that we found out in the New Left, that we needed a women's movement. It was almost by accident.

7:08
SM: Did you f— Did you feel like a lot of the women that I have interviewed, that the sexism that was so prevalent within the antiwar movement, the civil rights movement, and most recently, I have heard even in the gay and lesbian movement, and the Native American movement, and because I have interviewed people that it was ramped, and a lot of the women in those movements said, to get away from those, and join the women's movement.

[crosstalk 7:31]
RB: Right.
SM: Do you agree with that?

7:32
RB: And that… that was in order to have you know, I— I mean, I can remember that my ex-husband, who was active in the new left, his friends, sometimes when I talk, they would answer him.

[crosstalk 7:50]
SM: Wow—
RB: As if he had said what I had said.

7:52
SM: They will not even recognize you—

7:53
RB: It was that you were almost invisible, in meetings and things.

8:00
SM: Was that something that you were involved in the— was it Mobe? Do— were you involved in Mobe?

8:04
RB: I was involved in Mobe.

8:05
SM: Did you see these new left activists; they just treat women and like, go… go Xerox! And—

[crosstalk 8:12]
RB: Right—
SM: and that kind of stuff?
RB: Right.

8:14
RB: And also, sweep the floor, you know, not only go Xerox. And then… since we were the ones going toward the door and talking to people a lot, they would have to get information from us, and then they would give the talks.

8:30
SM: Oh my God.

8:31
RB: So, I mean, we did a lot of the labor and so on. We got very little from it.

8:39
SM: What is amazing in the studies that I have done of some of the activism, at least at the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64, Bettina Aptheker was able to stand up on that car and speak.

8:49
RB: She was able, but she says that she was one of the guys.

8:53
SM: Okay. I know that to offs—

8:56
RB: At that time, she felt like one of the guys, and she did not even think of herself as a woman.

9:01
SM: Then there is Mario Savio’s girlfriend at the time who he ended up marrying, she was also—Goldberg or−

9:06
RB: Goldberg, yeah.

9:08
SM: Yeah, there were 2 Goldbergs, [inaudible] they were… they spoke too—

9:12
RB: Right. And in the film about Berkeley women talk about being—

9:16
SM: Right.

9:17
RB: —invisible.

9:18
SM: It is amazing.

9:20
RB: And even in Wisconsin that was true. Men always wrote the things, it was just assumed.

9:27
SM: I am going to get back to books here obviously you are a scholar and a writer yourself and you have already mentioned The Second Sex but what were the— the books that really turned you on as a young person that inspired you? Wow, again, you— you already read The Second Sex and— but were there other books, like the— was The Feminine Mystique real important to you? Was—

9:49
RB: No, The Feminine Mystique, when I read The Feminine Mystique, I really thought— I know that it influenced some people, but I mean I was interested in it, but it did not influence me because it was about… over educated women who were not… were not living up to their potential, when there were so many women that did not even have opportunities to live up to their potentials. Especially at the time that I read it. I mean, the books that influenced me more was Fanshen, about the Chinese Revolution, that influenced me enormously.

10:32
SM: What year did that come out?

10:34
RB: What? Fanshen… must have come out… they have an anniversary of it. I think it came out in around… It came out in the late (19)60s. And in the book, the women get together and do consciousness raising, like we did. And they speak bitterness… about their experiences, both with men, and with the oppressive Chinese government to recall their pain. And that had a big influence to me about how people could change the whole of society and make a revolution.

11:11
SM: Do you like the term boomers? I say, I have been asking this now for the last 30 people because—

11:17
RB: I do not like the term, I do not like the term baby boomers, although that gets-

11:20
SM: Because you see what happens. You got the… you have got the greatest generation that Brokaw talks about which is the World War II generation then you have this group for five years called the Silent Generation, which is… they were not very silent. They were the people that were the leaders that were [inaudible] in (19)40 and (19)46—

11:35
RB: Right. They were in people like Ginsberg—

[crosstalk 11:38]
RB: —and people
SM: Yeah!

11:40
SM: Tom Hayden and—
RB: Yeah!—
SM: —even Ronnie Davis—
RB: Yeah!

11:42
SM: Richie Havens had said I am born in ’41, they said, but I am a boomer. I am not, you know, and the— Todd Gitlin told me he says, you know, kid, I will not even talk to you if you keep saying boomer I will not even—

[crosstalk 11:52]
RB: Right. It is not−
SM: —talk to you.
RB: I do not [inaudible]—
SM: You know, it was… it was about a period.

11:57
RB: It is about a period and ‘boomer’, first of all, a boomer now… it just has to do with consumerism, not with activism—

12:05
SM: You see— it is also that, from what I am learning more and more is that the first 10 years of boomers, those born between (19)46 and (19)56, yes, they were all influenced.

12:18
RB: Right.
SM: But when you start getting into the (19)57—
RB: No−
SM: —to (19)64—
RB: No−

12:21
SM: They were ten years old! How can they—

[crosstalk 12:22]
RB: Right−
SM:—you know—

12:23
RB: −they were not inf—, you know
SM: Yeah, so−
RB: Maybe they were influenced by other things.
SM: When they get—
RB: Like the media and things.

12:29
SM: When you look at your… the generation that you are linked to any… anybody born I think (19)38 on, so to speak, would you… would you say it is more like the Vie— is there a term you like to use the Vietnam generation, the Woodstock generation of the.. the protest generation that, uh, you know—

12:46
RB: The (19)60s generation or something? Or the movement? Yeah, no way.

12:50
SM: Yeah, ‘because that is kind of more of the—

[crosstalk 12:51]
RB: Right−
SM: —definitive generation—
RB: Movement generation−

12:53
RB: But not boomers. I do not like boomers, ‘because it just seems like consumerism.

12:58
SM: One of the questions… I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly, and she said, and David Horowitz said the same thing—

13:04
RB: Uh huh.
SM: [inaudible] ramparts.

13:06
RB: Yeah, I-I… went out with him. So, I know—

13:09
SM: Oh you know him well?

13:10
RB: Yeah. I mean, in another era.

13:11
SM: Yeah. Well, Dav— well David's a brilliant guy.

[crosstalk 13:13]
RB: Right, he is—
SM: You know, and I—

13:15
RB: And he wrote… very important books—

13:17
SM: Oh.
RB: —early on


13:18
SM: I have them. I have all these—

13:19
RB: Yes!

13:20
SM: —books. And I have been wanting to— he wrote at Berkeley and I got—

13:23
RB: Uh huh.
SM: —a first edition of it. But he will not even talk about those now. Now that is like that is—

13:26
RB: Right. Yeah.

13:29
SM: But one thing you have to admit about that—

13:30
RB: I met his parents; I was at his parents’ house.

13:33
SM: —so the passion he had back then for the left is the same passion he has for the right. So he is pretty consistent in his passion. But what I am getting at here is-

13:41
RB: He has better rewards with the right.

13:43
SM: Yeah. For money—

13:44
RB: For money, right!

13:47
SM: That the people who were the troublemakers of the (19)60s are now running today's universities, and they are running the departments and the studies department—

13:55
RB: Right, that is true.
SM: —the women's studies, Black Studies, Asian American Studies—

[crosstalk 13:58]
RB: Yeah, American studies.
SM: —Native American Studies—
RB: Right. Yeah. True.
SM: —gay and lesbian studies and environmental studies.

14:03
RB: Mhm.
SM: Do you agree with that?

14:04
RB: I think that is one arena we have been very active in.

14:09
SM: So, you do not take that as a negative you take—

14:11
RB: No!
SM: —you take that as a—

14:12
SM: That… that leads me into how had professors changed in their teaching styles since the (19)60s? What did the (19)60s and the (19)70s do to the whole new wave of teaching?

14:24
RB: Well, I mean, the content of the teaching changed. I mean, we… taught much more about social movements, rather— we taught both what was happening at the bottom as well as what was happening at the top. We did not just teach elite history. We taught peoples history as well. And… the way we taught is that we cared about our student’s experience.

15:03
SM: When do you think that began… did that begin on actually some of the professors that were teaching the boomers?

15:09
RB: Um, some of our professors I mean, like William Appleman Williams taught the original documents and us to analyze the documents. He did not just have secondhand sources, and that was very important—primary sources, go to the primary sources.

15:29
SM: Right.
RB: And so, he had a big influence. In the women's movement— for a while when I was teaching Women's Studies. We… we taught a great d— we put people in circles, and talked about our own experiences as well, and that we were the experts on our own experience. It was not other people that will be experts.

16:05
SM: Right.
RB: And that has held me in good stead because I wrote a book with another woman about the suburbs. And the reason we wrote the book is because the books that our students were reading lived in the suburbs said this had nothing to do with their lives in the suburbs now.

16:26
SM: Yeah, I think the… I guess… Again, I have interviewed conservatives and liberals, I am making sure you get all points of view here, and Michelle Easton from the Clare Boothe Institute. I do not know if you have heard−

16:38
RB: Uh huh, that is great.

16:39
SM: And the concern they expressed, and this is not me, I might… I am not… I just get interviewing. That is all I am. No, but… is that… that many of the new laughter of the activism that the new left… the activists in the (19)60s, wanted their point of view heard, because they felt it was not being heard, and they had to fight for it to be heard. And they were kind of shutting down the other points of view, whether it be Richard Nixon speaking on the podium, or you know, whatever. Yeah, and then they come to power within the universities, and they are doing the same thing that they accused others of doing back then of not allowing a cons— a smart conservative point of view. Because Phyllis Schlafly said to me, I bet you my… I bet you have not included any of the women's studies programs, or I bet you some of the conservative speakers— Michelle Easton says to me, I bet you they do not include Ann Coulter, because they do not consider it an intellect or Michelle Malkin, or this new congresswoman—

17:34
RB: I think, as a matter of fact, we include them far more than they include us. Because we do believe in democracy, and a balance. And I am always so pleased when the students are conservative, and that we have different points of view in the classroom. And I have debates in my classroom, and make students take different points of view. Because I think you learn a lot that way.

18:06
SM: See, then that… see that… I know that for a fact, that I have been in university for 30 years, but I hear the other side. And I have been in a university where it was of— only two… two or three tenured faculty members are free to say they are conservative, because the rest of them were all liberal for fear their jobs. But it is… that-that has come up, that feeling within the university. And certainly, when we had Ann Coulter come to campus there has been some sort of reaction to her point of view as not being smart enough to [inaudible]−

18:37
RB: And I tell the students look, I want to tell you, this is my… this is where I am coming from, this is my point of view. But I want you to have, you know, I want us to argue.

18:48
SM: So, your teaching point of view is also what Hillary Clinton said in… in her biography that she learned that she was a Goldwater girl. And she learned about the other side because she did… she was going to be Goldwater and her friend was going to be for Johnson. But their teacher in high school said you have to take the other point of view. So, you learn about everything you can about Lyndon Johnson, and you debate for him, and she will debate for Goldwater.

19:15
RB: I make black students… debate from the slavery point of view. First, they are a little… uptight. I mean, because it is really important to have other points of view. And I constantly have debates in my class.

19:33
SM: Well, that is important, [inaudible].

19:35
RB: You know, and take sides. They have to know the other side. And they learn a lot by listening to it, and thinking of how to counteract that argument. It is really good.

19:44
SM: It can change people too, because—

19:47
RB: Right!

19:47
SM: —Hillary Clinton became a—

19:49
RB: Yes, right.

19:50
SM: —democrat when she was a diehard Republican.

19:52
RB: Right.

19:52
SM: She was a Goldwater girl!

19:51
RB: Right.

19:51
SM: So… anyway, I am trying to read my writing here. I am not going to—

19:57
RB: Is the light bad?

19:58
SM: Oh no, I just… I had to… I should use my glasses here because, if you bear with me, I am going to… put my glasses—

20:03
RB: Oh, I understand, I would need my glasses to read.

20:07
SM: But I cannot [inaudible]… I have a problem to my fam— nob— nobody-nobody in my family can read my writings. So let us do it. Bear with me here, to boomers correct me if I am wrong, grew up with a very naïve… but they were very naïve, and they learned what the meaning of fear stood for. The idea of ‘be quiet’, ‘obey orders’, ‘do not question authority’. Fear, and being quiet, and being naive was the norm in the (19)50s, to many of the boomers that were born after the war. The (19)60s and (19)70s was just the opposite for all three. There were lots of injustices, many people spoke up to challenge what I believe was wrong. And they did not… they were told not to challenge authority, but students challenged everything. And this basically is because of some of the things that took place in their lives. The McCarthy hearings in the 1950s, the concept of fear, the Cold War, the concept of fear, the worry about the bomb, the concept of fear, speaking up and you could lose your job, that was very common in the (19)50s. It was written in white collar. So, you are right, Mills talked about it. Civil— and of course, the Civil Rights and Women's Rights and all the rights in that movement, it kind of developed, which challenged that kind of mentality in the (19)60s, because— they would be questioning what was wrong with President Johnson, Nixon, and Kennedy in terms of their leadership and speaking up, or they might not have spoken up so much for Eisenhower. Your thoughts about these, the dichotomy between these two extreme periods of when that front wave New Left, people born in the (19)40s, though, say, the mid (19)50s—these qualities of fear, being quiet, and also being naive?

21:53
RB: Well to deal with the fear, I grew up… when I grew up we had FBI agents outside our house, and were told not to talk to them. So— and my father’s friends went to jail. But my father did tell me that I should be proud of those people in jail. So, I did not, I mean… I knew that there were consequences for speaking up. And I grew up with the fear. And as a matter of fact, I think people, the little older generation, like myself, who saw McCarthyism, and saw conservatism, and then saw change, were less naive. Because they saw that it could change back also. And when it did change back, they had the earlier experience, as well, and they were not as naïve, because we had seen both periods. And people who had only grown up in the (19)60s, and seeing this quick change, just expected that to be forever.

23:19
SM: Like the ones today they are—

23:21
RB: Right. And then when things got really conservative, again, they were not able to deal with it. But we had seen that that is what happens in history. And as a historian, you see, I mean, that there are shifts, things change back. And people have to change, and sure we were… we were naive. And it was good that we were naïve in some ways, because we tried things that people did not think we could do. And if we had not been naive, we would not have done it. We would have been too cautious.

24:03
SM: Right.

24:04
RB: And so you have to be a little gutsy and blind to try these things.

24:10
SM: You know it is amazing, when you reflect years later, and this is just my observation, I have heard from other people, that they were naive because parents, you know, the parents were… they were not upset with their parents, but it was the way things were in the (19)50s you know, that kind of thing. But then if you reflect on it, it is not really criticism of your parents, it is a criticism of television, what you saw, the things that you use— wait a minute, there were no black people on TV in the (19)50s, Amos and Andy was the only thing on in the early (19)50s and they made fun of— slapstick. And then Nat King Cole goes on for six weeks and that was it until the early (19)60s when I Spy and Flip Wilson and Diane Carrol on The Nurse Show came on TV so— you see— wait there were no blacks! There were no other people on there. And-and everything seen from Walt Disney was all about the cowboys and Indians! [inaudible] cowboys and Indians! Indians are always the bad people. The white hat, so you start seeing that maybe we were not as naive as we thought, you know, as we age, you can start reflecting on things that are wrong, even without somebody telling you.

25:18
RB: Right. And also, it helped in a way that we believed in democracy, because we then tried to get a better. If we had been totally cynical— my students nowadays are so cynical, they think nothing can change, everything is corrupt! We believe things could change.

25:36
SM: Yeah, yes.

25:37
RB: I mean, we believed we could make a difference. We bought that, which was great. If we had not been naïve—

25:44
SM: Do you think, though, that there is even some fear? I find that the people that run today's universities are boomers, or, you know, first gen— generation Xers who really did not get along with boomers.

25:57
RB: Right.

25:58
SM: Generation X’s, I do not think… like them. We had poor programs on it, not across the board.

26:02
RB: Yeah.

26:03
SM: So, you get the people that are into these universities are the boomers that experience what you and I experienced, and also the generation Xers who had a problem with boomers to begin with. And they see things, but they are afraid of a return to what was, particularly with the term activism. I sense that this is me. And I spoke up at the university about this, that volunteerism is fine, because 95 percent of students are volunteering, and they at the end, they are doing great jobs, and it has never been higher. However, the term activism is a term I sense they fear. They do not like it. Am I wrong in perceiving that—

[crosstalk 26:39]
RB: No, I think they do not like it, no.
SM: —because it brings back the memories of what was, and it could come again.

26:44
RB: Right. They do not like it. And also, you know, they have seen… like I had my students read Thoreau and they were very surprised that I had them read it. And I said, why? And their idea of activism, and these were feminist students, were right to lifers, and people on the right. They did not have any idea of activism of the left. That is not what they have seen. I mean, they have seen people bombing. I mean, they have seen the Oklahoma bomber, they have seen the World Trade Center bomber. They think of that, as activism.

27:29
SM: Oh, wow.

27:30
RB: So, their activism is terrorism and the right. And that is what they equate with activism. People who are against the law.

27:38
SM: How would they think about the tea party group?

27:41
RB: Well— I know! That— they— I have not—

27:45
SM: Had a chance—
RB: Yeah, to talk to them about that [laughter]

27:49
SM: That… that is amazing. Because what happened is, when I have read books, I think some people think of the negatives, they think activism is off to the left. Well, activism does not have any political—

28:02
RB: At all!
SM: —control. There is left, right and anything in between!

28:06
RB: Exactly! And so therefore, my students, I have students who went for abortions, and they were trying to be stopped by life— right to lifers. They think of that, as people breaking the law, people setting clinics on fire, they think about as activism.

28:20
SM: Let me turn this one, and I can… this is a 30 minute. This is a 45. Dealing with two of these here.

28:29
RB: Okay.

28:30
SM: Bear with me. I have stopped it—

28:33
SM: [inaudible] when I finished the interviews. What are the major accomplishments of the second wave? In terms of what have been the major accomplishments in the women's movement? And secondly, what are the major failures?

28:46
RB: The major accomplishments, I really think? I mean, obviously, there were changes in laws and, you know, now girls do athletics. We have an equal rights amendment. But I think more important the way people dress, the way people… young girls dream, think, their expectations. It is so all pervasive. The changes that people do not even know that it is there. It is like the air that we breathe. Girls grow up now, ex— with great expectations. They do not think of themselves as second class citizens. They think that they can do what men can do, and maybe better, they see they are the best in their class. They are called on by their teachers. They see role models all over. And I think it is so pervasive that we cannot even see it. And I mean, obviously, you know, there is a change now it is going back, people can get abortions, there is… people are less prudish. I mean, the music changed…the way people… the way people, take for granted that girls wear pants! We had a fight for girls wearing pants… to school. I mean, all of these basic kinds of things, the fact that girls do not wear girdles, make up. Just such basic changes and freedoms. Girls do not have to wait at home when a boy asks them out, they can ask them too. It is this… basic everyday life changes. Aside from the laws and their… now girls are in all sorts of jobs that they would not have been−

31:05
SM: How about—
RB: −play differently.

31:08
SM: How about— was the failure of the—

31:11
RB: And this is a big failure in that we did not, at least the radical part of the women's movement did not create lasting organizations. And so, they are not around now. Now is around. But we had such loose anarchistic structures that we did not last in that way.

31:36
SM: Yeah, one of the things that has come in some of the interviews, and it is in my belief, because I worked in the university for 33 years. And that is, that what you saw in the early— in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, where if there was an anti-war movie, you said that you saw all the movements, with their placards and signs. It seems like the movements today are in their own world, the women's movements in their world, the gay rights movements in their world, the environmental movements over here, the Native American movement is West—

32:07
RB: Although there would probably be some crossover. Some, but not—

32:08
SM: Yeah, it seems like they do not work together, that there is no collaboration. It is all— as some people said, it is a bunch of special interests and—

32:15
RB: Right. And also, people make their living that way. It is not like it was before.

32:21
SM: Right.

32:21
RB: I mean, they have these organizations. But there, they each have an interest in surviving. And not looking after the whole.

32:34
SM: One, One person, well-known female leader. And she is a liberal, said that, when I asked her about the National Organization for Women, what she thought about it, if she loves the organization and thought it was very important. But she said, if you walk into the national headquarters now… now they have literature, for she says, abortions, AIDS, and the pill. And she said, that is what they stand for now- There is no—

33:02
RB: No jobs?

33:03
SM: No, no. She said, if you walk into their office—

33:06
RB: Really?

33:06
SM: —That is all the brochures you see in these three areas. And they— you do not see anything about the laws they are working on, the-the— all the other things. And so, I am wondering your thoughts on that? It is just your thoughts.

33:21
RB: Well, I think that people characterize the women's movement that way and forget that they did other things. For example, one of the things that I was most active in was daycare centers. And you do not hear a lot about the women's movement creating daycare centers and insisting on daycare, because people have a stereotype of the women's movement as not caring about children.

33:47
SM: Right.

33:48
RB: And that stereotype, women were supposed to care about themselves and no other things. And that was not what I saw in the women's movement at all. You know, and I do not see a women's movement around today. And there is a little of a women's movement around that. I know that works on the morning after pill. So, you are right on that, but not much else.

34:17
SM: The daycare centers very important. I think that is, that is a historic accomplishment from the women's movement. But if you are talking about weaknesses, I have a niece that just had a baby and I still think that corporations and businesses are still insensitive to the needs of women raising children who are still working. She said in most places, there is no privacy. There is no— you know, if they are, if they have to breastfeed their child, there is no priv— go into the lady’s room, no! Where is there a—

34:46
RB: For executives there are but there is not for the common worker. See I read this article.

34:50
SM: Yeah.

34:50
RB: Executives could breastfeed, and they make places for them. But for the common article— women, there was nothing.

34:57
SM: That should be a major cause—

34:59
RB: Well of course it should be—

35:03
SM: —and also there is the… the thing about taking care of a child too, which is they get, I think, two months or three months off of, you know? And then something about the husband should also be—

35:13
RB: Fraternity leave—

35:15
SM: Yeah.

35:15
RB: —so the husbands get a head start.

35:15
SM: Yes. So, the— you know, I am a firm believer of six months.

35:20
RB: Right. Oh yes!
SM: Have either—

35:21
RB: But other countries have two years. Sweden, Denmark, France. We are the most backward country in all of the—

35:28
SM: And why is that? Why—

35:30
RB: Because we have a very bad welfare st— state. I mean, we— it is all left up to the individual. I mean, we have the most backward healthcare system of all the so-called advanced countries too. It is part of our welfare system.

35:46
SM: You know, the idea—

35:48
RB: We are very backwards and unfortunately, I think in the movement, we were so against the government that we became against systems, and did not, we were so anti-government that we did not think of how the government can help us, as well.

35:05
SM: Right.

35:05
RB: It was a big failure in the movement. It is both things. I mean, you could be against the government. But also, we have to look at what the state can do for us.

36:18
SM: Right.

36:19
RB: Especially now. And then people started buying into all that Reaganism and the minimum state, you know, and that just really irks people who are not wealthy. I mean, it is just welfare for the rich.

36:33
SM: We know what Reagan did— the AIDS crisis.

36:37
RB: Right!

36:37
SM: And in any of the interviews I have had of some gay and lesbian, especially gay men, who were major figures. They start crying when they talk about what he did not do in the (19)80s.

36:49
RB: Oh yeah. Provincetown is the gay capital of the world, right?

36:53
SM: It is?

36:54
RB: About six miles from here.

36:56
SM: Oh, I did not know that.

36:58
RB: They call it Viagra Falls.
[laughter]

37:00
RB: And, it is, I mean, it is 80 percent gay.

37:02
SM: Oh my God.

37:03
RB: Yeah. It was one of the beginning of people helping each other because there was not government help.

37:10
SM: Amazing. Why did the ERA fail? Well, my first boss at High University was really working hard for it, at… in Ohio, and I can remember her having the radio on when the vote was taking place, and it did not pass in Ohio. And she worked two years on it and when she went home, she was devastated. Your thoughts on why the ERA did not pass?

37:32
RB: I really think… it was a case where the right was in power and had the media and scared working women, who thought oh, wow! I do not want to enlist in the war. And it was all scare tactics. And the people on the left and people I knew, sort of ignored it.

38:01
SM: Yeah, Nixon was, I think, in power at the time.

38:05
RB: Yeah, and they just scared women who felt they would not be protected.

38:13
SM: Yeah.

38:13
RB: And, and then I do not think that the radical part of the movement like myself, we did not work on it at all.

38:23
SM: Some people think that Phyliss Schlafly single handedly defeated it.

38:27
RB: She did very well. I do not know about single handedly, but the mood of the country had changed.

38:33
SM: I got a question here that I will read, and that is the mothers of the baby boomers, I think my mom here, raised most of the 74 million kids from (19)46 to (19)64. Or as we have talked about those from (19)40 to (19)65. How can some of the feminists say that most women of the era were unfulfilled? How do we know this? And is not it important to know that someone was home when you arrived home from school? That is what happens when you— I have talked with even liberal, left-wing baby boomers, and they love the fact their mom was home in the (19)50s when they got home from school. And a lot of kids today are missing that because they do not see a father or mother home they just come home after work. And Phyliss Schlafly talked about she-she-she said you know all this business about being unfulfilled as a female you know, I could have gone on, and I could have been long gone on and become a senator or even a bigger name politician, but my husband did not want me to and so I listened to my husband, and I did not.

39:38
RB: She was not home. She was always out doing speeches.

39:42
SM: I know but, just— just that concept. Well, if-if you I think Sally Roche for good— for full name.

39:51
RB: Yeah, Wagner.

39:51
SM: Yeah, she-she-she made medicine that if you really talked to a lot of the mothers of the (19)50s. They will probably say that they were not fulfilled, if you had a chance to talk to them, they never spoke about it. Just your thoughts on that?

40:04
RB: I do know. I mean, my mother had resentment. She definitely had resentment in that she would have— there are some people that would like to stay home. My mother was one, who was much better at career than she was at raising children. My father was the more gentle person, and would be better home. But she was discontent. And she communicated her discontent to us, all girls. I mean, and she did put her husband first. But it was almost absurd the way she put him first, I mean, and we put in first we take turns of the table sitting next to my father. He was— the best foods would always go to my father. The best of everything. And we always knew, we said, thank God, we did not have a brother, he would have been so favored. We were so happy it was all girls, because a boy would have been favored. And my mother did communicate her discontent.

41:31
SM: When you— you cannot have—

41:33
RB: My father treated her well, but she was discontent from society’s expectation.

41:38
SM: Well, Sara Evans wrote a great book, you know—

41:42
RB: Yes, I think—

41:43
SM: —And I think it is one of the best books ever written and—

41:44
RB: It is very good.

41:45
SM: —if everybody could read the first chapter in the introduction, you would get a wide awakening because of women in professional careers, as opposed to women who are housewives, and she breaks it down. And of course, World War II, and then coming back and the whole thing there. So, and I, my, my mom was a very successful secretary, she was unbelievable, but she just stopped everything, and was raising kids. And everybody on the street that I grew up in, the mothers were home, and the fathers are off work and we never saw our dads! it was always there—

42:16
RB: Uh huh, right!

42:17
SM: So then, then all of a sudden, these changes happen in the (19)60s, mid (19)60s, basically.

42:24
RB: Yeah.


42:24
SM: The second wave move— women's movement has been all inclusive with respect to women in— no, has the second wave women's movement been all-inclusive with respect to women of color, and women with different sexual orientation? And I preface this by saying, do black women identify more with being black first and/or being a woman second?

42:49
RB: It depends on the women, some identify, like Shirley Chisholm, who ran for president, she identified as a woman and a black and could not break it down. But some identify more with women, some identified much more… with race. And we all came from the civil rights movement, so it is not that we were not concerned, we had concern. But we also came from a civil rights movement, that at that point, that the women's movement started, was into black power.

43:26
SM: Right.

43:26
RB: And did not want women as… did not want white women as part of it. They thought we should do our own thing. So, our own thing was women.

43:37
SM: Right.

43:37
RB: And we made some overtures. But it was not enough. And we also made the mistake often, of talking for all women. When we were not all, you know, we were a certain kind of woman. Although, there were like, very, varied women in the group. I gave you the name of Carol Hanisch, she is from a poor rural family.

44:04
SM: I may be interviewing her she— she just responded back in—

44:07
RB: In Iowa. I mean, I, they were varied. People just talked about certain women. But there were lots of women from different backgrounds.

44:15
SM: Let me change this tape.

44:21
RB: [inaudible]

44:21
SM: Oh, you already talked to her?

44:23
RB: I emailed her, she said, you think I should do this? I said, I do think you should do it—

44:27
SM: Oh I really— I need to make sure that women's point of view is in this project.

44:32
RB: Right, and also, you know, she was very active. She really, her idea was Miss America contest when she did all sorts of things. And she was an AP, and she was also in the South during the civil rights movement as a UPI reporter.

44:46
SM: Oh wow.

44:46
RB: But, she is from a poor family in Iowa. But people just think that it was all upper middle-class women. It was not. But that has— what has been written about.

44:58
SM: You know Kaycee Hayden came from— I am trying to get ahold of, you know, Casey—

45:04
RB: Yeah, I know her.

45:06
SM: Well, Casey says she is going to do it but then she is hesitating because she— and she has not done interviews in years.

45:09
RB: Oh I know. That would be great—

45:11
SM: And but she is… she has agreed to do it. But then she hesitates, as I get close to it so [inaudible]—

45:18
RB: That would be good if she did.

45:19
SM: We will kind of see what happens here. I also bring up here, lesbian females, you know whether they identify more as lesbians or as women first? I do not know—

45:31
RB: I do not know. I mean, it depends. It really depends on… there is a big variety. And the thing is that I do think that lesbian women identify more with women than they do with gay men. Because there is a real division in that movement.

45:47
SM: Oh, yeah. And I have been told about the sexism in that movement—

45:49
RB: Oh, yes. It is incredible.

45:51
SM: As a matter of fact, there was a period when they will not even talk to the men.

45:54
RB: Right.

45:54
SM: Which is unreal. And actually, there is some things today going on that I—

45:57
RB: Right, still, they, I mean, so that there is real divisions, and there are some that feel closer. I mean, [inaudible]. She is a woman that— who writes a lot, and she was much closer to the women's movement.

46:10
SM: See, I had three other Latino women, Native American women, certainly Asian American women, and we know ever, certainly, we know about the first two here, but Asian American women, you do not hear anything about them in the (19)60s.

46:24
RB: And there were Asian American women, in-in our book, we write a little about them, they had a little newspaper in-in California, there were some Asian Americans.

46:32
SM: Well, I am trying to interview Gary Okihiro who—

46:34
RB: That would be good, yes.

46:36
SM: We brought to our campus and I forget the other similar person. And I am interviewing Kim Phuc. But because Kim, I know Kim from the Vietnam Memorial, but I— I think it is important— the boat people, we have to talk about the boat people, but the boat people are really (19)75, and they became, they were boomers from another country, and then they grew up and they have been so successful—

47:01
RB: It is unreal, yeah.

47:03
SM: I actually am— close students— I have been most close— affiliated with other Asian American students my whole life. I do not know what it is. Because I bet, they have advised organizations on most of my Facebook friends are former students. They know I care about Vietnam—

[crosstalk 47:17]
RB: Uh huh, that is pro— right.
SM: —and most of them are Vietnamese.

47:22
SM: Okay, where did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion, and when did it end? And what is the watershed moment to you?

47:29
RB: Okay, I think the (19)60s began in 1954.

47:37
SM: Okay.

47:39
RB: With the civil rights movement, and sort of the burning movement of all the (19)60s. And then… I think it ended in the late… in the mid to late (19)70s. [inaudible] late seventies.

48:00
SM: Was there an—

48:01
RB: Then the economy changed, there was an oil crisis, the government changed. It really became different

48:09
SM: Say around, Jimmy Carter’s period?

48:10
RB: Yes, right. It was around Jimmy Carter's period.

48:13
SM: Some people in the [inaudible] 1975 because that is when the helicopters went off the–

48:17
RB: Right.

48:17
SM: And in Vietnam, but a lot happened in, in Jimmy Carter's here, too.

48:23
RB: Right.

48:23
SM: Was there a watershed moment?

48:25
RB: I do not think it is a watershed moment. I think it is gradual.

48:30
SM: So there is no— is there any one event you would—

48:32
RB: Well, I mean, the Supreme Court decision started things that were in the works in 1954. And the water— I do not, I cannot see an end. Because there is… trickles, still.

48:46
SM: The legal love of laws that have been passed in the lines of boomers. Now when we are talk— I am still using the term, I cannot—

48:55
RB: Right, that is okay.

48:56
SM: But it is from (19)40, (19)40 on–

48:58
RB: Right, right.

48:59
SM: The laws that were passed by the Supreme Court during this timeframe, they had the greatest impact not only on boomers, male and female of all colors and sexual orientation, but certainly women. What do you think are the most important for women? We know Brown versus Board of Education—

49:18
RB: Well, the Equal Rights Amendment, Title 9 for athletics for women was very important.

49:24
SM: That was in the (19)80s was not it… I think, yeah… yeah.

49:26
RB: Yeah, Title 9 was the (19)80s. Equal Rights Amendment was before that. The EEOC was very important to the Equal Opportunities Act.

49:37
SM: Well now what would that state?

49:39
RB: That stated that… Equal Opportunities Act, it had a board of discrimination and it added women as well as blacks…

49:49
SM: Okay.

49:49
RB: –to the Equal Right Amendment. And it also said, that since it had the idea of equity as well as equality… you could not have equality if there were no women in the job. So, you have to have an idea of equity. For example, there are no women truck drivers almost. But women— nurses have more training and more responsibility than truck drivers. So, if you look at equity, they should be paid as well. So, you have to look as equity as well as equality.

50:41
SM: Now do not forget Roe v. Wade.

50:43
RB: Yes.

50:43
SM: Yeah—

50:44
RB: And of course,1973, that was so basic. I was very active in the first abortion speak and–

50:53
SM: How important were the beats, in your opinion, in shaping the attitudes of not only the new left, but— actually activists of all—

51:03
RB: They were very important to me; they were very important to me. I mean, I, in high school, go to the village, I looked up to them. Even though women were not the key in the themes, it seemed like a big breakthrough.

51:26
SM: Ann Walden was the youngest of that group. She was born in 1946. When she was very close to Ginsburg—

51:34
RB: Uh huh, really?

51:34
SM: —there seemed to be a relationship between those two that was very strong. And they had the center—

51:41
RB: Well Susan Suntodd was somebody looked up to—

51:42
SM: Right, right.

51:43
RB: —and she was involved in that movement. Beats and existentialists were influences. I mean, I read. I read Ginsburg's poetry aloud. I went to readings of his—

52:02
SM: That was one of the— I was at one of his chants. At Ohio State.

52:07
RB: Yeah, oh, no, it was very moving, and a real breakthrough.

52:10
SM: Yeah, the banning of [inaudible] I believe was 1955—

52:17
RB: It was late— yeah, it was early.

52:19
SM: That was kind of a historic happening as well. And what was it about them that they challenged authority where they were like, very unique. They did not care what people thought of them .

52:28
RB: They challenged authority. They were also— they were against war. They were against bomb testing, war, all of those things. They— for me they dressed in black when the popular culture colors at that time were fuchsia and chartreuse. And they had freedoms, I mean, not only sexual freedoms, but marijuana. I mean, they— that was very, I mean, sex, drugs and rock and roll were very important.

53:15
SM: One person I interviewed out in California who was part of the counterculture out there, is it Neal Cassady?

53:22
RB: Yeah.

53:22
SM: He said Neal Cassady is the Beat. He is— you had the Ginsburg's, and you have your Snyder—

[crosstalk 53:29]
RB: Roman [inaudible]

53:30
SM: —[inaudible] all these others, but something about him, attracted all the others. And so people look to him as like the model Beat. you agree with that?

53:42
RB: No, I looked at Neal Cassady as a model too.

53:45
SM: I have a question here on healing. This is a question that I have asked— actually asked everyone, even Senator McCarthy when I first started this so long ago. It is a question of healing as a generation. In 1985, I took students to see Senator Muskie, six months before he passed away, he was not well, he had just gotten out of the hospital, and Gaylord Nelson had been able to organize this meeting with him. It was one of our leaderships. So, we took 14 students there and one of the questions they came up with it was based on videos they have— they have observed in the (19)60s. And the question they wanted to ask was, thinking that he would respond about 1968 in the summer, based on all the divisions that took place in America, in the 1960s, and (19)70s, including the divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, the riots and burnings within the cities, the assassinations during the (19)60s, the extreme divisions and those who supported the war, those who were against the war or those who supported the troops and against the troops. Do you think the boomer generation, like the Civil War generation, is going to go to its grave… not healing? And then they waited for him to respond. I will tell you, his response. Do you think… do you think that the boomer generation as a whole has an issue on healing because of this extreme divisions? I know you— many do not think about it, but some do! I am one of them. The divisions have— just were, so intense. And there was so much happening, that, you know, a lot of people like closure in their lives, but I am not sure if closure is possible. Just your thoughts on the concept of healing?

55:30
RB: I do not know about— I do not know— you know, I do not know about— I mean, I think… that… as far as anti-feminists, I do not feel much healing. But I can feel a lot of healing for people who went to Vietnam, I never was against the troops themselves. And I do not think we were, you know, many of us, so… And people that were for the war, they continue to be for these wars now, you know. I do not feel much sympathy with them.

56:18
SM: Somebody said, it might be better to say [inaudible]

56:22
RB: Yeah.

56:22
SM: I think I am fine–

56:26
RB: Yeah, I do not see–

56:28
SM: I am going to use this tape here. Some somebody said that it would be better if you simply just paraphrase this question, say those who supported the war, those who were against the war, which means those who went to war and those who did not, and that— and will that can ever heal? And the reason why the question came up is, what happens to the anti-war people when they go to the war for the first time, and they are with their kids? And they say, Dad, Mom, what did you do in the war? You know, that there is any guilt that they did not serve. I think that was really getting at when, when 58,000 plus died?

57:06
RB: Well, I mean, some of the people even if they did not serve, some of them protested against it. But then they were ones that did nothing. I mean, I think if you look at the wall, I do not feel it. My grandchildren now could be— asked me about it, I can tell them about protesting against this war that was killing people, and wars that are existing now.

57:34
SM: So, in a sense, what you are saying is that even the men who served in this war, they did their purpose, and we had our purpose—

57:42
RB: Purpose.

57:42
SM: —because it was genuine and real, and it was for good…

57:45
RB: Right, exactly.

57:45
SM: –it was not for bad. So, I am not going to criticize the young man.

57:51
RB: Criticizing them, is the people that sent them to war, and did not serve.

57:55
SM: Right. And then the people that protested the war— James [inaudible] does a great job talking about, there is difference between those who protested the war and those who evaded the draft.

58:05
RB: Right.

58:05
SM: And he is guilty. He feels guilty, but he does not, he does not [inaudible]. Because they did, because those people evaded the threat never protested the war. So–

58:13
RB: Right well, some had evaded the draft. I knew people that evaded the draft and protest the war. The–

58:21
SM: The— Senator Muskie answered the question in this way, he said that he never even responded about 1916. We thought he was going to talk about all the students in the [inaudible] each other—

58:32
RB: Right, yeah.

58:33
SM: He did not even mention it. He said we have not healed since the Civil War, because we have the same problem. We have the issue of race, and it has not— said it is still here.

58:41
RB: And it is, when you look at the states that voted for Obama in the states that did not it is a Civil War.

58:46
SM: And you know something when people say that they criticize Obama and then in the next breath, they say, “And I am not criticizing him because he is black.” If I hear that one more time I am going to jump out the window. Because I know some people, you know, I am not saying they are racist, but it is like, “my best friends are black.” That saying— I do not know… you do not have to, you do not have to say it!—

59:10
RB: You do not need to say it! Right.

59:13
SM: That is what Glenn Beck says. Do you think also the word that the— this particular generation is a generation that does not trust? And is that good?

59:23
RB: No—

59:23
SM: One of the characteristics of the generation is not a very trusting generation.

59:27
RB: I think it is good not to trust. You know, there is a lot in especially big government and government not to trust and questioning authority is very useful.

59:40
SM: That—

59:40
RB: We want our students to question. We want them to ask questions and not just assume that authorities are correct, since they are not most of the time.



59:51
SM: In a sense, you are saying that then this is healthy for democracy–

59:55
RB: It is.

59:55
SM: –because we are challenging the system.

59:57
RB: Right, and we need more challenging of the system.

1:00:02
SM: Very good. One of my interviewees said that now he has become a special— now— that, oh now has become a special interest group. I cannot read my own handwriting. That concentrates more on the irony, I already— I think I have already asked that question, so… strengths and weaknesses. Okay. What do you consider some of the strengths and weaknesses of the boomer generation? And I know you cannot, you cannot talk about a whole generation of people but you can talk about people you know.

1:00:30
RB: I think the strength of the people I know was that they were very daring… that they organized with other people… and protested for what they believed and stood up for what they believed, and some of them suffered for it. Some of them benefited. And the weaknesses are… that we did not have the staying power to change with changing times. And we also did not know our enemy.

1:01:30
SM: Has the enemy been the same for—

1:01:33
RB: No, the enemy has been very different. I mean, we had good times in the (19)60s, good economic times, liberal governments. And when it changed to more conservative times, we did not know how to deal with them. They knew how to deal with it, but we did not. They divided us.

1:01:53
SM: Yes, that is—

1:01:55
RB: They had spies in our organizations, we, you know, we were trusting people, we did not know any of this.

1:02:02
SM: This leads to a question here that, what was it like? And I am basically giving this question to you, what is it like being a female in America during the following timeframes, and maybe you have probably— your experience is comparable to other females of the time. And I am only saying the, because when we are looking at the boomers now, you know, we are talking right up to today so—

1:02:27
RB: That it was the most invigorating, marvelous, fun time.

1:02:31
SM: Let me break this down—

1:02:33
RB: I loved it.

1:02:34
SM: —what was it like from (19)46 to 1964 women that were—

1:02:39
RB: That was much harder. That was much harder. It was like, continual repression. Feeling a combination between oppressed and invisible.

1:02:53
SM: How about 1961 when President Kennedy came into 1970.

1:02:58
RB: That was joyous times. Fun was so important. It was so much fun to live in. It was, the atmosphere was anything is possible. Lots of experimentation, new freedoms, adventures, incredible friendships, Re- learning, and learning things.

1:03:40
SM: How about, how did the (19)70s differ from the (19)60s, say from 1971 to Reagan–

1:03:47
RB: (19)70s just started changing. I mean, America was not a great nation, and it began to be not a great nation anymore. We stopped producing anything. And we, it was no longer the same kind of times. Starting in late to mid (19)70s.

1:04:12
SM: Would you say that that period, right up to about (19)73, (19)74 is really part of the (19)60s because, yeah.

1:04:19
RB: Yes, that was part of the (19)60s, it was late (19)60s.

1:04:21
SM: How about 1981 to 1990, which was actually the period of Ronald Reagan and George Bush, the first.

1:04:28
RB: That became much harder. I mean, it came… I mean, the sixties had ended and you had to make a new life and realize that the movement was not there anymore, although some friendships continued and…

1:04:52
SM: Do you agr— Go ahead.

1:04:53
RB: …and some protests continued.

1:04:57
SM: Yeah, I know the anti-apartheid movement was about the only one that— the only movement that, that— that was early (19)80s, (19)83 to (19)84.

1:05:04
RB: Yes early (19)80s.

1:05:07
SM: Do you feel that the criticism oftentimes of people that grew up in the (19)60s generation, which is all of them, but basically is that their idealism died as they got older, that they are no different than any other generation as time goes on. They become parents, they get a job. There is always this scattering of people that stay the way they were, but the majority of them just moved on with their lives. And, and when they said, when they were young, that they were going to change the world. And we are going to end war, great peace, and racism, sexism, homophobia, and make the world a better place to live that, that was just young people talking and dreaming and hoping but in reality, as life goes on, they have responsibilities. And, and security does mean a lot to them. Because they got to put bread on the table. Just your thoughts on that.

1:05:57
RM: I think that many, many people from the (19)60s that I know, are still active, and not active in the same way. Because the world has changed. And whenever I have a student who is an activist, it turns out that someone else is an activist in their family, and many I mean, my son's activist, I mean, they— it is not— they do change, and they do go on and their lifestyles change. But some of their idealism lives and they are still protesting in their way.

1:06:47
SM: You know, it is interesting—

1:06:48
RB: Or teaching, and passing it on to their students.

1:06:51
SM: As I, as I have gotten older, because I am in my early (19)60s, now. It has gotten stronger in me, not… not weaker, because I am more confident in who I am, what I am all about, and I know who I am as a human being, and that is who I am. And so—

1:07:09
RB: No one I know almost has— the only person that I know, personally, that has gotten conservative is David [inaudible]. But most… most of the people have not. True their lives have changed, they have jobs and things, but they have not gotten conservative.

1:07:24
SM: Think his friend [inaudible], another one. They were both-

1:07:27
RB: Oh yeah, Peter, I did not know Peter.

1:07:29
SM: Yeah, yeah.

1:07:29
RB: I did not know Peter.

1:07:30
SM: Yeah, I think he was—

1:07:31
RB: Yeah, I did not know Peter.

1:07:32
SM: —[inaudible] too.

1:07:32
RB: But I did not know.

1:07:35
SM: You already talked about the—

1:07:39
RB: Yeah.

1:07:39
SM: Alright, where is it [inaudible]. Anyway, I am moving around here.

1:07:44
RB: Right that is okay.

1:07:46
SM: And, I think you have already talked about your books, both prominent writers. Legal decisions, we were doing pretty good. If you were in a packed house, of 500 female college students today. And one asked you named the three or four events in your personal life that made you who you are today. Now, this is a little takeout, from the first question, but it is a little more specific, with all of your strengths and imperfections that we all have as human beings, what are they? And I asked this to Peter Kyer and Peter Kyer said, you know, I cannot answer that. You know, I got to think for a while. Then, he— then he thought about, jeez, yeah it was— I had a maid when I grew up, who was an African American maid, and she was very important. And then he went on to talk about the experience about the maid. And then he was writing a book on it. He was writing a book on the maid. And then he said, he talks about, well, then, then I had this person that did this for me. And then I know that I went to— I just happen to be at this particular event at this time. So, he has really just really went to town on it. Other— now you have already mentioned a lot of things that influenced you—

1:09:00
RB: Yeah, I do not—

1:09:01
SM: But are there specific events?

1:09:02
RB: Specific events… I do remember, that I could not go— my birthday party had it be called off because the Rosenbergs were being executed. And that had an enormous impact on me, not only because as a kid, I was angry that my birthday party had to end. And but I then we went to this demonstration. I was a kid about the Rosenberg—

1:09:45
SM: I do not think they were guilty.

1:09:47
RB: Well she certainly was not.

1:09:49
SM: Yeah.

1:09:50
RB: Even if, you know, the bombs he did was not even a secret. But anyway, the thing is that all around the world, they protested this. And, I mean, I saw that there were events that were much huge-er than me, like my birthday party. This execution, which was a world event, right? So, it sorts of put in perspective, the personal and political. There were these events outside that determined people's lives. Plus, it scared me that my parents could be killed. You know? Not that I even knew they were communists at that time, but I knew there was something a little different about them.

1:10:42
SM: Were you aware of the Hollywood 10? At that time, too? And their testimonies before the-

1:10:47
RB: Not totally, but my parents knew some of those people. So, I mean —

1:10:51
SM: And, and the people that lost their lives?

1:10:53
RB: Yes, I knew—

1:10:54
SM: Committed suicide because—

1:10:56
RB: Right, I knew a little about that. Yeah.

1:10:59
SM: Was there a generation gap in your family at all, but if any- were your, were your with you and your parents, in any way—

1:11:04
RB: Yeah, there was a generation gap. I mean, you know, they did not like the music I listened to or the sloppy the way they thought I was dressing, no there was definitely a generation gap.

1:11:18
SM: Now, what is interesting, I interviewed a very powerful Vietnam veteran about a month ago in Washington, Jack Wheeler was the guy who raised the funds for the Vietnam Memorial. And, and there was a symposium in 1980 with James Fallows, Phil Caputo. Really top people— Bobby Muller. And basically, they talked, they said- was talked about the generation gap. And one of them— oh and James Webb was not a senator. And I think they brought up the fact that the generation gap to them was not between parents, and their sons and daughters. It was we- it was within the generation, that the generation gap was those who served and those who chose not to serve. And James Webb, if I make sure I get his quote correct because he is a pretty tough cookie. He said that… he thinks that the boomer generation, which is being praised for being a generation that served, really is the generation that did not. By people who protested and did not go to war when people in World War II and World War I, and it was it was a rite of passage, one of the services— to serve your nation. You know we had so many, that did not serve either in a variety of ways. So that was what he thought generation gap was. Do you think you agree with that concept, or–

1:12:44
RB: I did not have that much experience with that. Yeah.

1:12:51
SM: Yeah.

1:12:51
RB: But that is, it is very different for people. So—

1:12:57
SM: Yeah, especially if there was a rite of passage that many of them have gone through.

1:13:03
RB: Right they think— people serve for many different reasons. I mean, I have this black friend that, you know, it is just a way out of his life.

1:13:11
SM: Yeah, I—

1:13:12
RB: Not like he was so gung-ho war, or saw it as a passage. You know, I do not know, he made two girls pregnant. He, you know, did not know what he was doing and it was just like kids that serve today.

1:13:26
SM: So, some go in there for a career too and some did that.

1:13:30
RB: Want to get their school paid for I have students all the time that tell me they want to enlist to get—

1:13:35
SM: One of the criticisms of the military back then is that they did that to young people that did not have any money. And as a result, they end up dead in Vietnam. There was a con job so to speak. What are, what are some of the slogans of the women's movement? I have been asking a question about slogans. And I said, there were three slogans that I personally feel kind of define the boomer generation. One of them is Malcolm X by saying and “by any means necessary”, which is symbolic of the more radical revolutionary toward violence type of mentality.

1:14:09
RB: The Women's Movement was pretty anti violence.

1:14:11
SM: The second one was the hippie mentality, which Peter max it was, I am a poster you do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should get together that will be beautiful.

1:14:21
RB: Yeah, no, but for movement build that is not good.

1:14:23
SM: Yeah, and the third one was the one Bobby Kennedy was quoted. He took it from the writer from the 19th century. And the summons sees things as they are and ask why I see things that never were asked why not, which is a more of an activist mentality—

1:14:38
RB: Uh huh, right, yes, that one makes more sense

1:14:40
SM: —of seeking justice [inaudible]. So those three I thought, but I did not know if there was any other—

1:14:45
RB: The woman’s movement, the personal as political. That what you think of is personal. Like if you are being beaten. It is not personal, it is political. And having an abortion, birth control, they are not only personal issues, they are political issues as well. So that was a very important one, the personal is political.

1:15:12
SM: The last two periods that I did not talk about was the period 1991 to 2000, which was the end of the George Bush period and the Bill Clinton era. What is— what is that, for women and for you, for example just—

1:15:25
RB: Pretty bleak. Pretty bleak.

1:15:29
SM: Any progress there in any way?

1:15:33
RB: Not too much.

1:15:35
SM: And then, of course, the years—

1:15:36
RB: No, I would say it was the opposite of progress. It was going backwards. They have changed abortion to make it harder to get abortions, there are fewer abortions. People do not give abortions anymore. I mean, it has gotten backwards.

1:15:52
SM: And the year—

1:15:53
RB: [inaudible] starting to get a little better.

1:15:54
SM: The year 2001 to 2010 with George Bush the second and for Barack Obama on this—

1:16:00
RB: Well with Barack Obama there is at least there is hope. We do not know where it is going to lead, but at least there was hope.

1:16:08
SM: We are in obviously, in another war with George Bush with Iraq and Afghanistan.

1:16:13
RB: Right, we are.

1:16:14
SM: And certainly, Obama's going to gung-ho.

1:16:16
RB: He is.

1:16:17
SM: So, I do not know where that will lead.

1:16:25
SM: I would like your reaction to the following people.

1:16:29
RB: Okay.

1:16:29
SM: Terms, and what these events mean to you personally.

1:16:33
RB: Okay

1:16:33
SM: And we have still got at least 15 minutes here. Kent State, Jackson State, what does that mean to you?

1:16:40
RB: It meant a lot to me, Kent State, Jackson State. First of all, Jackson State people do not know about as much as Kent State. And it was a more working-class college. It was not an elite college. So it was very important. And then Jackson State, which was much more ignored, was equally important. And even though they came at the end, they were exceedingly important, and the fact that it was getting more violent. And people getting were more frustrated on both sides was very important.

1:17:22
SM: What does the wall mean to you? The Vietnam Memorial.

1:17:26
RB: It was a very important commemoration when I have gone there and seen all those names. And I do not know people that died in Vietnam, but it was just— it was a very moving, important Memorial. Just to have some kind of commemoration of the damages.

1:17:52
SM: Have you ever met Diane Carlson Evans? The Women’s Memorial?

1:17:55
RB: No, no.

1:17:55
SM: You ought to meet her someday.

1:17:56
RB: Yeah, I know.

1:17:57
SM: Got to bring her to your class. What a- she went before Congress to fight for the women’s memorial—

1:18:00
RB: No, I know she did, I know she did.

1:18:03
SM: And because she saw the eight names that were on the wall, but with a three-man statue, she fought for that woman statue. She did a good job. It is interesting when I asked a powerful Vietnam vet that the question about what I mean I heard that Diane really had to fight to get that Memorial built. What kind of— was there any sexism within the Vietnam veteran community? And he immediately responded, he said, no, we supported Diane from the get go. And of course, I have heard otherwise, but not from him. And it was basic as that, well look at the wall, Maya Lin designed the wall, she was a female. Who designed the woman's memorial? Glenna Goodacre. And then there was a man that designed the three man statues so two of the three main standards are women. And so, so there is our case. What does Watergate mean to you?

1:18:58
RB: Watergate, was really an opening that- first of all, it was televised. And people really got to understand what this dirty Nixon government was doing. And it was the beginning of unraveling that people could really see and feel. I mean, this new unraveling it is, it is almost like the Pentagon Papers. It has, has not created a ripple.

1:19:37
SM: Yeah, starting. But just the term counterculture.

1:19:41
RB: Yeah.

1:19:41
SM: What do you think of that. Were you- I wonder how do you—

1:19:44
RB: I define myself as part of the counterculture-

1:19:47
SM: And what is the counterculture to you?

1:19:49
RB: I like the counterculture; it was not the mainstream culture. It was not having the same goals of conquering people's— treating people very differently, wanting to live life in the moment. And it was caring for the earth–

1:20:21
SM: How About hippies and yippies. Hippies—

1:20:24
RB: Yeah, I like the hippies. You know, when I felt like a hippie myself, I lived on the Lower East Side. Liked the hippie culture. It was an alternative to the admin culture.

1:20:37
SM: How about the yippies which was Hoffman and Ruban—

1:20:40
RB: Yeah, well, I knew them. I was not as— I mean, I knew them personally. And I mean, they did things like burn money. I mean, they showed contempt for values that I felt should be made to quest- to people to question.

1:21:03
SM: How about Woodstock and Summer of Love, two separate incidents. One in (19)69, and one is (19)67.

1:21:05
RB: I did not go to Woodstock. I could have, but… I mean, it was a memorable occasion. Music was good.

1:21:20
SM: A lot of people forget the summer solstice of (19)68.

1:21:23
RB: Right.

1:21:23
SM: Yeah, that is, I— nobody talks about it. But that was big, too.

1:21:28
RB: Right?

1:21:28
SM: The year 1968. What does that mean to you?

1:21:31
RB: 1968? It meant the international movement. And it meant the beginning of the women's movement. There was a movement in Mexico, there was a movement in Germany.

1:21:47
SM: Yes.

1:21:47
RB: It was a worldwide—

1:21:50
SM: France.

1:21:51
RB: —New Left. Yeah, France. New Left. It was a worldwide— New Left was an international group which was very important.

1:22:01
SM: The 1963 march on Washington.

1:22:05
RB: That was incredibly important as well, in that racism could not be denied any longer. Thousands of people were daring to dream that it might be different. And mobilizing. And even though it was not the radical part of the civil rights movement, it was people from all over the United States. Unions, different people, maids, chauffeurs so many different people coming together.

1:22:49
SM: How about the incident on Wall Street with hard hats, beating up hippies with long hair. That was pretty similar. Like–

1:22:58
RB: Yeah, that was— showed the enormous class differences. The press was pushing.

1:23:08
SM: Some people say that was what was the silent majority were those hard hats. Because that was what Nixon was always talking about , the silent majority.

1:23:21
RB: I do not think they were the silent majority. But anyway, you know, they had their point. And they blame the wrong enemy.

1:23:28
SM: You brought up black power and black power was really prevalent on college campus, late (19)60s, early (19)70s. And Kent state, you cannot even hardly find an African American student, because it is more all white students. I am actually interviewing the president of Kansas State Student Government in three weeks. And he was an African American. But there was a— if you read James’s Michener’s book, I can state there were no African American students there. And if there were, they were asked to leave, because at that time— I was on Ohio State's campus in the early (19)70s. And black students went more towards what was happening in America and not toward Vietnam. There was that split, and the Afros and everything was pretty strong there. So black power, your thoughts on black power, and its intimidation factor number one and Black Panthers and the concept of what they were all about in terms of—

1:24:23
RB: Well, in a way, black power was a lot like separatism that had been, you know, there since Booker T. Washington, and saying, look, we can do it alone. And in the women's movement in some way. We were inspired by black power, because women's power, we had our own movement. We did not have men in the movement. And it inspired us to do our thing on our own and that we did not need men to be leaders anymore. We could be the leaders. So, there were lots of correspondences between black power and the women's movement.

1:25:12
SM: What did you think of the- when… did you think Black Panthers were violent? Number one, even though they had the food program and number two, SDS went from being an antiwar group to a violent group. Yeah, well, the weatherman-

1:25:27
RB: I am actually very against the weatherman. And they were the most macho people too. And anti-women and kind of ways and guns and macho. And it was the most anti female thing. And I did not like that transition at all.

1:25:44
SM: I mentioned that even in the American Indian Movement from (19)69 to (19)73 that was so strong that the hopes that Alcatraz, when they took over Alcatraz, and then the violence at Wounded Knee showed again, the violence does not win. Right. So, you had you had Wounded Knee for Native Americans. you had the weatherman for SDS, you had the Black Panthers, right? People have Huey Newton or Bobby Seale says we were not violent. We were there— we had guns to protect ourselves because police had guns, but then then also the Young Lords, which was the Latina, Puerto Rican group, they kind of copied the Black Panthers, so—

1:26:18
RB: But they also had breakfast programs and other things, as you say that people forget.

1:26:22
SM: Right. Right. What did you think of Earth Day?

1:26:28
RB: Earth Day, I remember going to Earth Day and my son knew more people on the demonstration for the first time than I did.

1:26:36
SM: You were in Washington for the big one?

1:26:37
RB: I was in New York City.

1:26:39
SM: Okay.

1:26:39
RB: Was it June 13th? One— and I remember my son went with me and he was saying hi to everyone and knew everyone. And I thought that was just great, that he knew more people than I did.

1:26:49
SM: Let me change the tape.

1:26:58
SM: Like at least—

1:26:59
RB: And the hippies had some of the Earth kind of things and preserving the Earth in them as well. I mean, I began having gardens and sewing things and caring about the earth and the water supply and mulching as a hippie. So, Earth Day seemed a continuation of those concerns.

1:27:25
SM: Yeah, I think the environmental movement is very strong today. Of course, there is a lot of enemies of it.

1:27:29
RB: Yeah. But it is stronger.

1:27:30
SM: It is, it is very strong.

1:27:31
RB: And it will get stronger with things like BP.

1:27:35
SM: Oh, my gosh, yes.

1:27:36
SM: The Free Speech Movement, (19)64. Just your thoughts on it? Because it was really the preamble to all the foul–

1:27:44
RB: In California.

1:27:45
SM: Yeah.

1:27:46
RB: Because, I mean, I was writing about Elizabeth Gurley Flynn and, in the Wobblies, the IWW. They had to have free speech movements, and they call them free speech movements, in order to be heard. So, in order to even raise money, with people in the south, you had to have a Free Speech Movement, to even talk about the war, and to talk about the civil rights movement. So, it had to come first. And free speech is always part of a movement.

1:28:22
SM: But I always admire— I wish I had met Mario Savio; he was not a well man. He died in his fifties.

1:28:27
RB: Right.

1:28:27
SM: And I do not know if you saw him [inaudible] I mean, there is a new book by Dr. Cohen at NYU—

1:28:33
RB: Right, yeah, NYU.

1:28:35
SM: I am interviewing in September—

1:28:37
RB: Right, my son [inaudible]

1:28:38
SM: —Strictly an hour and a half. Nothing but the free speech movement. And but one of the things that stands out, and I want you to comment on it, that he… that Mario Savio, whether you liked his style of speaking or where he, you know, came I think he originally came from New York—

1:28:56
RB: He did come from New York.

1:28:57
SM: Yeah. And the fact that you got to admire this guy, because he-he got it, that the university was about ideas. And he talks about the recent, you know, stopping about literature being handed out, you are denying ideas on a university campus. And so, he did what Clark Kerr talked about in the uses of the university, the noun, not the knowledge factory was like the corporate factory. And so, he was challenging that kind of a system—

1:29:30
RB: [crosstalk] Right and he was saying—

1:29:31
SM: The corporate mentality—

1:29:32
RB: —we cannot be cogs in a wheel

1:29:33
SM: Yeah.

1:29:33
RB: We have to change. You know, we are not little cogs. We have to open our minds. And that is supposedly what learning is about, and you cannot learn unless you have many ideas.

1:29:47
SM: See that is what worries me about the lessons that were learned from the Free Speech Movement and everything right up through probably today is that is when I interviewed Arthur Chickering, who gave me an hour and a half of his time on the phone, the great educator, rural education identity that we had to read for my graduate program. I asked him, is there any last comments you would like to make when I ended the interview. He says, yes. I am disappointed in today's universities for one reason the corporations are taking over.

1:30:13
RB: Yes, they are.

1:30:14
SM: And this is from a conservative educator—

1:30:17
RB: Yeah, but it is true, yeah.

1:30:19
SM: And that was exactly what Mario was saying. And that was [inaudible]

1:30:22
RB: Things have gotten so much worse!

1:30:24
SM: Scholarships are all based on raising funds. Everything is raising, you know, buildings are named just raising funds, scholarships, it is everything. And even in activities in—

1:30:35
RB: Even the kind of funding that is given, the people's work.

1:30:40
SM: Yeah, it has got to show that it is—

1:30:42
RB: That was what we were protesting against now the university is much worse. And also, the idea of public schools. We do not even have- we used to have free public schools. Now, even though state universities are so expensive—

1:30:57
SM: [inaudible] yeah.

1:30:58
RB: It has gone up 18 times since I have taught.

1:31:01
SM: Yeah, yeah. And I do not know what is going to happen to Berkeley. Because—

1:31:06
RB: No—

1:31:06
SM: I know some students that have left, they were not coming back. They were going to, they were going to another, they were leaving, they were leaving Berkeley!

1:31:13
RB: Right, I know, they are ruining, they are really making things— also, it is what is happening in our country now, where the differences between the rich and the poor are getting greater and greater. The gaps between the rich—

1:31:26
SM: Yeah and the middle class is going to go into the poor, and the- so 2 percent and the 98 percent—

1:31:29
RB: Right, and it is really what is happening, and therefore. for public education, they do not care.

1:31:36
SM Just a few more here, Freedom Summer.

1:31:40
RB: It was very important in— that was very important, not only for the work that was done, you know, educating black people in freedom schools, but the white people changed so much. Seeing the roles of the blacks and black leaders like Fannie Lou Hamer, and that there were people who were sharecroppers who had no education but could teach you a whole lot. And it gave people a new sense of class. And what you could learn from the people.

1:32:22
SM: Sergeant Shriver in the Peace Corps, and I— and I say Sergeant Shriver, he has got Alzheimer's now just like—

1:32:28
SM: Yeah, that is what I hear.

1:32:30
SM: And he is not long for this world, unfortunately.

1:32:34
RB: But the person from Pennsylvania who started the Peace Corps, he was president of my college at first.

1:32:38
SM: I have interviewed two pe— Harris Wofford!

1:32:39
RB: Harris Wofford. He was—

1:32:40
SM: I know Harris Wofford.

1:32:41
RB: —He was president of Old Westbury.

1:32:43
SM: Yeah. And well, I know him well in fact—

1:32:45
RB: I do not know him well. But he was president of Old Westbury when I first came.

1:32:50
SM: Yeah, well, he was from, from California. He was my first speaker at Thomas Jefferson University. Then I went over to his law office before he worked for Governor Scranton and I, seeking an hour of his time, and I invited him four times to come and speak at our school once during the Rodney King crisis when he was senator. And, and I interviewed him in his backyard, before we moved to Washington, where this book, and he— his wife, was just Claire was everything to him. And he has never been the same since he last-

1:33:22
RB: Were, well, he was president of a college so I—

1:33:26
SM: But just your thoughts on Sergeant Shriver and the Peace Corps-

1:33:28
RB: I think the Peace Corps was another very important idea, especially… We live in a world economy. And it is very important that people to see what America does to the rest of the world and how what we can learn from them, and they from us. And it was very meaningful for people who went I know, people that were in the Peace Corps, and it changed them enormously.

1:33:54
SM: What are your thoughts? When you look at the Presidents since 1946, which includes, one of the things I learned very early, when I was four or five, I learned all my presidents. I learned them the least.

1:34:05
RB: Most of the presidents have been very dismal. The good ones stand out. As a historian that is what I think.

1:34:11
SM: Well, when you think of when you think of Truman, and Eisenhower, and certainly Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, and then you have Ford.

1:34:23
RB: Ford, yeah.

1:34:24
SM: Carter, Reagan, George Bush the first, Bill Clinton, George Bush the second, and now Obama, when you think of these people, these are the presidents that have been alive when boomers have been alive. And if you are talking about even FDR, for those that were born in the early (19)40s. Any of those events do you admire for their issue, for their work on behalf of women when they were in positions of leadership?

1:34:51
RB: Eleanor Roosevelt, not— not Roosevelt, and under Johnson, very good legislation was passed. I mean, the Peace Corps and those things did affect women. And the War on Poverty did affect women. Not specifically, he did not appoint that many women or have feminist consciousness, but some of his programs were really important for women. Johnson above them all.

1:35:19
SM: What were some of those programs?

1:35:21
RB: Well, I said the War on Poverty, the Peace Corps… Equal Rights Amendment passed under him, ERA.

1:35:37
SM: You mentioned also Eleanor Roosevelt and I have not talked about her at all, hardly in any of my interviews, but—

1:35:43
RB: Human Rights, she was the one to talk about human rights and she is very important. And as a wife of a president, she was very active in her role.

1:35:53
SM: She lived until—

1:35:54
RB: Aside from being gay, you know—

1:35:55
SM: She lived until (19)62, 1962.

1:35:58
RB: Right, she was very active in the UN.

1:36:03
SM: So, she was too— she— would you say she was a person—

1:36:05
RB: She was someone you could— I looked up to her.

1:36:08
SM: The women's movement is also often identified as a United States effort. But when I interviewed Charlotte Bunch–

1:36:16
RB: Oh, she—

1:36:16
SM: She talked about the international aspects, was Eleanor Roosevelt, a key figure in the international women's issues in the UN?

1:36:24
RB: She was in the UN

1:36:27
SM: Right.

1:36:27
RB: In UN, in Human Rights.

1:36:28
SM: Just a few more names, I do not tell you—

1:36:30
RB: Okay, that 1s alright.

1:36:31
SM: Okay I am going to— at least they are all— because— just your thoughts on Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda.

1:36:37
SM: Um, Tom Hayden is still doing very good work. Now. I get this newsletter that he does. And he is one person who has changed with changing time and continued to be important. I mean, I really liked his Newark project… in Newark. He was not very good to Casey Hayden, or he was not good to other girlfriends, but on the whole, I think he is a very positive role. And he continues to be an activist.

1:37:14
SM: He has written and brand-new book now on the movement.

1:37:18
RB: Right, yeah, so, he continues, I mean, he is someone who is lasting.

1:37:22
SM: Jane Fonda.

1:38:25
RB: Jane Fonda. I mean, she popularized, really, fitness and protest for a while, and she certainly was hated. By the right. They made her a major enemy.

1:37:40
SM: And they still do.

1:37:43
RB: And as you know, a founder and an actress she played an important media role.

1:37:49
SM: I am interviewing Jeremy or Jerry Alinsky tomorrow, who wrote a book—

1:37:52
RB: Oh, right. Yeah, right.

1:37:53
SM: [inaudible] on Jane Fonda about Miss— Danny Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. Just your thoughts on both of them.

1:38:03
RB: They made protesting very much fun. And they, they had this yippies. I mean, I did not think of it is irresponsible, but some people good. I mean, they wanted people to feel that you could have a hell of a good time and still protest, and be very creative and inventive.

1:38:36
SM: How About the Black Panthers. And I said just like I cannot just say Black Panthers because they had like seven or eight major personalities and just if any of these people stand out— Stokely Carmichael was obviously when was—

1:38:50
RB: He is international.

1:38:51
SM: Yeah, he challenged Dr. King—

1:38:51
RB: [inaudible] Yes, right.

1:38:53
SM: —your time has passed and so Stokely Carmichael, of course, Bobby Seale, and Huey Newton and Eldridge Cleaver and Kathleen Cleaver and H. Rhett. Brown.

1:39:03
RB: They are all very different. Kathleen Cleaver, I was reading a book the other day; she did the introduction. She is a lawyer now. I mean, they are very, I mean, Huey Newton turned out to be a criminal. I mean, they are— they are all very different. Bobby Rush beat Obama—

1:39:20
SM: Oh, that is right— that is right.

1:39:22
RB: You know, they are very, very different people all of them.

1:39:27
SM: And the one that was murdered in Chicago. Yeah.

1:39:29
RB: Yeah. What is his name? The Chicago brown women. The Chicago branch was one of the best branches of the, of the Black Panthers. They are the ones that had a big breakfast program.

1:39:40
SM: And then there is the— Angela Davis who was not a Black Panther.

1:39:34
RB: She was sort of a media… communist, media star.

1:39:51
SM: Anything about her?

1:39:53
RB: I mean, intellectually, she, I mean, I used something that she wrote in my class about slave narratives. She wrote something about Douglass.

1:40:12
SM: How about Tommy Smith and John Carlos, they were in the 1968 Olympics. They raised their fists.

1:40:17
RB: Yeah, right, I do not, you know–

1:40:18
SM: They are black power.

1:40:19
RB: Yeah, right.

1:40:20
SM: Not Black Panthers.

1:40:21
RB: Right.

1:40:23
SM: Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers.

1:40:27
RB: You know, very useful event. I wish the new papers had as much impact as he did. That is a very brave individual.

1:40:37
SM: How about Dr. Benjamin Spock?

1:40:40
RB: I mean, my father was a friend of his.

1:40:43
SM: Really?

1:40:43
RB: Yeah. My father was a friend of his, he thanks him. My father, in his book. My father helped make him more left.

1:40:51
SM: Your— your father wrote a book?

1:40:53
RB: No, Ben Spock’s Book.

1:40:56
SM: Oh, I have Ben Spock’s book—

1:40:58
RB: Yeah I believe he thanked my father, Lewis Fraad, for helping him.

1:41:03
SM: How about Timothy Leary?

1:41:07
RB: LSD. I do not know, guess he escaped from prison too. No.

1:41:13
SM: Yeah. The weathermen got him.

1:41:16
RB: Yeah well, LSD, you know.

1:41:20
SM: George McGovern and Eugene McCarthy.

1:41:22
RB: I did not relate to them that much.

1:41:25
SM: Neither one of them?

1:41:27
RB: Neither of them, nope.

1:41:28
SM: What about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey?

1:41:31
RB: Oh, LBJ, in retrospect, as a historian, I think was very important to Senate leader and president, but I did not at the time.

1:41:40
SM: What about Nixon and Agnew?

1:41:42
RB: Well they were major enemies–

1:41:45
SM: And…
RB: But they look good in comparison to Bush, and smart.

1:41:49
SM: George Wallace.

1:41:51
RB: At least he changed.

1:41:54
SM: Barry Goldwater and William Buckley, because those are major.

1:41:57
RB: Yeah, they were at least thinkers. They are much better than the right wingers that are around today, like Sarah Palin's much more intelligent and thoughtful.

1:42:07
SM: But the— Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan.

1:42:11
RB: I think more of Betty Friedan than I do of Gloria Steinem. I mean, she is a media figure. There is nothing that she has written or said that I think is very worthwhile, but she certainly is a figure that people look to.

1:42:23
SM: About Bella Abzug.

1:42:25
RB: I admired her a lot.

1:42:27
SM: [crosstalk] A lot of people do not realize he was waiting before she was a congressman.

1:42:29
RB: —She was very gutsy—

1:42:30
RB: Very gutsy person.

1:42:32
SM: She risked her life going down South.

1:42:34
RB: Oh I know. She was an amazing person. She-she- I helped her start a daycare center. She wanted one in her campaign headquarters.

1:42:47
SM: Wow. Muhammad Ali and Jackie Robinson—

1:42:50
RB: I looked up to Mohammed Ali and Jackie Robinson and I think it is odd that my students do not know who either of them are

1:42:56
SM: That is amazing.

1:42:57
RB: Black students, have never heard of Jackie Robinson.

1:43:00
SM: See another one that is now up there is Curt Flood because Curt Flood was [inaudible] now more is being written. There is a couple of biographies coming on, on him. And they are going to do a section in the Cooperstown on him.

1:43:11
RB: Oh, really?

1:43:12
SM: Yeah. Because he has, he has not, he has not given any [inaudible] again.

1:43:17
RB: Yeah no.

1:53:17
SM: They bought him— actually, Muhammad Ali, is… I cannot think of— anything else here?

1:43:22
RB: I did not even like boxing, but I watched Muhammad Ali.

1:43:27
SM: Yeah, he was, he was something else. As far as, as far as musicians of the period and the music was very important politically, it was in tune with the times, but how important was music in your life in terms of not only just relaxing you and laying back and enjoying it—

1:43:43
RB: Like as protests, it was. It was.

1:43:44
SM: —but in terms of stimulation, who were the artists that really stimulated you?

1:43:47
RB: I mean even though there was sexist artist, the beat and things like the Rolling Stones influenced me and I went to the concerts and Dylan. I mean, I was influenced by male rock and roll. Even if the words were saying something different to me than the rhythms.

1:44:09
SM: Were you into Folk, as much as Ryan.

1:44:10
RB: I was into folk music.

1:44:13
SM: About the Motown sound.

1:44:15
RB: I liked Motown; I still adore Motown.

1:44:16
SM: Is there one album that you have that stands out but like me people?

1:44:24
RB: Maybe, I like Janis Joplin. I like Janis Joplin a lot. And she inspired me and feminist kind of ways.

1:44:35
SM: Too bad she passed away really quick, very bad drug situation. And down to my last three questions, what role did women play in ending the war in Vietnam, because the group or groups of personalities, the role of women in building the women's Vietnam memorial. We all know about Diane Car— Carlson Evans, who was involved in that. But the reason I bring this up is because when I interviewed John Wheeler in Washington, DC who raised funds and he has, he wrote a book, Touched With Fire. He says the three most important things that happened as a result of the Vietnam War was the— that women were, were antiwar or involved in the antiwar movement. And it was really inspirational. So, it was right during the women's movement. So—

1:45:23
RB: It was during the women’s movement. And we were very involved in the antiwar movement, as involved as men.

1:45:29
SM: Do you feel that one of the things is lacking today and students understanding— they think in terms of power and empowerment, we had Tom Hayden on our campus about six years ago. And Tom, Tom talked—[third speaker interrupts]—we were talking about women—

1:45:53
RB: In Vietnam now. I think we were the troops in the movement. We I mean, I know people like Leslie Kagan that were ahead of mold and devoted their lives to the antiwar movement.

1:46:05
SM: Are there— you said you went to some of them? Protests—

1:46:10
RB: Pentagon loans.

1:46:11
SM: Were you there at the (19)67, the raising—

1:46:15
RB: Yes, the raising of the— I was there. I was even in the front lines.

1:46:18
SM: And Norman Mailer was there.

1:46:20
RB: Yes, I know.

1:46:21
SM: And as was— Dr. Spock was there too.

1:46:24
RB: Spock was there yet. My father was in jail. Yeah.

1:46:28
SM: What was that like? A lot of people will laugh, their going to levitate the Pentagon in (19)67. What is the… what was that feeling like being there?

1:46:37
RB: The feeling was, that we have the power to, we have the power. And you do not take it literally, to rock the Pentagon. To make it air.

1:46:51
SM: Were you there at the time that the guy burned himself? Underneath McNamara?

1:46:53
RB: Oh, no, I was not there.

1:46:55
SM: What do you think of McNamara and Kissinger?

1:47:01
RB: I think they are war criminals.

1:47:06
SM: Yeah, so what I was getting at here is that when Tom Hayden was on our campus, he asked our student government if they had, if they were empowered, and they said, oh, yeah, we determine budgets, we give out money. And Tom said, we control the money that goes, no, I am not talking about power. I am talking about power. They did not have a- they did not know any difference between it. And I do know that I brought up in a student affair once meeting of the word empowerment and that scared, you know, just saying power. What is it about the difference between the word empowerment as opposed to power, I mean?

1:47:40
RB: Empowerment is sort of a spiritual state of mind. And it is an individual thing, of empowerment. It means like, you can feel empowered, you can change the color of your hair and feel differently and feel empowered. But it has nothing to do with power and who rules.

1:48:05
SM: Yet, Tom—

1:48:05
RB: It is an individual kind of… thing. I feel empowered.

1:48:11
SM: See he told me at dinner, he says, I hope the students in the audience are not like the students at dinner with me. He was dead serious. And no, they were not that was, that— those students went off to student government, and— and then the students that were at the program stayed about an hour afterwards and Tom started talking to them. That is the Tom, that, yeah, those are the ones that ask the questions. My very last question, legacy. What do you—two-part question—what do you think the legacy of the women's movement will— do you think there will be a third wave? You know, there was the first wave. I even took my dad before he passed away to Elizabeth Cady Stanton’s home after her father died.

1:48:56
RB: Oh, wow that is wonderful.

1:48:57
SM: And I— one of my famous, favorite shots is walking up the back stairs with my dad looking up at me. And we were— and I have gone to Elizabeth Cady Stanton house three times now since my dad died, and again brings tears to my eyes, it was a great memory of being with him that day at the house. But getting back to this, will there be a third wave in the women’s movement? And what is the legacy of the second wave?

1:49:24
RB: I hope so. And the legacy of the second way is, as I said, the way people think, dream, act, imagine, live their lives. And I would hope that there is going to be a third wave.

1:49:44
SM: Do you think that— when— you are a scholar and you write books, and scholars often know that the best history books are written 50 years after an event like the best World War II books—

1:49:51
RB: Oh yeah definitely.

1:49:52
SM: 50 years after the (19)60s and (19)70s, I will say 50 years from 1980 when Reagan came to power, what do you think the history books are going to say about that time and the generation that grew up after World War II?

1:50:11
RB: I think people are going to admire it a great deal and see the enormous changes that were made, and that it was a real triumph of democracy, from below.

1:50:25
SM: And those media people today, whether it be Newt Gingrich or George Orwell, in his writings, or Mike Huckabee, on his TV show or some of the commentators on Fox when they say that a lot of problems in America today are due to those times in the (19)60s and (19)70s, when love was rampant, drugs were rampant, divorces were rampant–

1:50:52
RB: Well, those people are divorced more than most people in the sixties, that is all I can say.

1:50:56
SM: Yeah, you know, do you have any— was there a question that— that I did not ask you that you thought I was going to ask?

1:51:07
RB: Cannot think of it at the moment.

1:51:08
SM: Was there any final comments or–

1:51:09
RB: No, that, you know, I think a legacy of change and democracy is only going to ask, and I hope to see it again in my lifetime.

1:51:22
SM: Good. Well, thank you. I am going to—

(End of Interview)

Date of Interview

2010-07-29

Interviewer

Stephen McKiernan

Interviewee

Rosalyn Baxandall, 1939-2015

Biographical Text

Rosalyn Baxandall (1939 - 2015) was a feminist historian, activist, author and educator. She was one of the leading figures of the feminist movement in New York during the late 1960s. Baxandall received her Bachelor's degree in French at the University of Wisconsin and her Master of Social Work at Columbia University.

Duration

111:24

Language

English

Digital Publisher

Binghamton University Libraries

Digital Format

audio/mp4

Material Type

Sound

Description

2 Microcassettes

Interview Format

Audio

Subject LCSH

Feminists; Historians; Authors; Political activists--United States; Baxandall, Rosalyn, 1939-2015--Interviews

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Keywords

Quakers; Sexism; Activism; Women's Liberation; Sex, Drugs; Rock n' Roll; Senator Muskie; Healing; Conservatives; Freedom; Counterculture; Woodstock; Summer of Love; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom; Black Power; Weathermen; Students for a Democratic Society.

Files

mckiernanphotos - Baxandall - Rosalind.jpg

Item Information

About this Collection

Collection Description

Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s and 2010s. The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and… More

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Citation

“Interview with Rosalind Baxandall,” Digital Collections, accessed March 28, 2024, https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/851.