Interview with Dr. Alexander Astin

Astin, Alexander W. ; McKiernan, Stephen

Dr. Alexander Astin is Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Higher Education and Organizational Change, at the University of California, Los Angeles and the founding director for the Higher Education Research Institute at UCLA. Dr. Austin has authored 23 books and has been a recipient of awards for his outstanding research. In addition, he was a part of the National Academy of Education.

2010-10-15

In Copyright

2017-03-14

McKiernan Interviews

96:20

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Alexander Astin
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So
Date of interview: 15 October 2010
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(Start of Interview)

0:03
SM: A question that I have been asking everyone that I have been interviewing in the process. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself, your early influences? How did you become who you are? Maybe the people that inspired you as a high school or college student, and how you chose kind of higher education, [inaudible] particular emphasis on studying students and working with them as a career.

0:33
AA: Well, a lot of it was fortuitous I have to say, I guess that I guess not-not a typical answer. I was originally very interested in music and majored in Music in college. But my, my parents represented what I liked to call the-the snows, two cultures family. My father was a physicist, and my mother was into the art, writing and theater and that kind of thing. And so, I was influenced, pretty equally by both of them. I initially wanted to go into music as a, as a career, but I got very interested in Psychology, as well during college and so quite I guess, serendipitously, I decided to go to grad school in my college route. Music, I had minor-

1:45
SM: You are fading away.

1:49
AA: Hang on a sec, let me, let me put my speakerphone on here. And this phone may run out of juice on the speaker, but I have got another phone I can-

2:02
SM: Okay.

2:03
AA: I run out of juice. But anyway, so I, when I graduated college, I decided not to pursue Music as a career and instead went to graduate school in Psychology. Very scientific Psychology, of experimentation and measurement, that kind of thing. Not-not necessarily, Clinical Psychology. Although my first job when I got out of graduate school is I had to do two years in the service. So, I was commissioned as a Clinical Psychologist, US public health service, relief Medical Corps for the Coast Guard. And other than wearing a uniform though, was a relatively painless two years, I did work as a Clinical Psychologist in a federal penitentiary. But I, while I was there, I was doing a lot of research, I was always applying for [inaudible] so pretty much stuck with that the rest of my professional career.

0:3:38
SM: Were there any people that really inspire, were there teachers- were there? Someone out there in the world that, wow, that person really impressed me and inspires me.

03:54
AA: Well, I think certainly in high school, there were, there was a music teacher that was very much a mentor for me, and I was inclined for having a good time partying, not taking school very seriously. And it was- I thought to at least to stay reasonably clean and take me under her wing, and I did have a lot of musical talent. She tried to cultivate that. But so, she was very important influence and really, in college, nobody in particular. Our choir director was very supportive, but it was not until I got into graduate school, and I did a-an internship at a Veterans Hospital that I met I say one of my first major mentor in psychology, that was a psychologist named John Holland, who was [inaudible] but sort of developed a reputation in the field of interest measurement, career development-

5:29
SM: You went to Gettysburg College, which is not far from where I live.

05:34
AA: Where do you live?

5:34
SM: I live in West Chester, Pennsylvania, just outside Philly. I go to Gettysburg four times a year to the battlefield right I know that college really well, in fact, when I worked at West Chester, we took a group of students over there, we had a leadership on the road, we met the president. He has since retired, but very nice college was very good students and what was it like going to college there? Obviously, you went in the (19)50s.

6:02
AA: At the time I went, it was still very firmly connected to the Lutheran Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church. And I was not a religious child. Although I was very interested in religion, study to attend as many different types of religious services. But I was not a member of particular faith. I went there because of their choir, they have a world class, choir, and I was arranging choral.

6:24
SM: What were or are your views of the students who were in college in the late (19)60s and (19)70s? Yeah, in the following areas, and I will just list these and then you can just comment overall.

6:57
AA: Is it just the late (19)60s and early (19)70s?

6:59
SM: Uh, yeah, I would say from (19)65 till about the late (19)70s. Because when you talk about the boomer generation, they were those born between 1946 and 1964. But by the time they were going to college, it was around 1965 that they started college. So, I am really looking at, you know, that frontline boomers that were in college say from (19)65 to (19)75. And then you had the late-stage Boomers who were (19)75 to (19)83. But I would like your views on the students, the Boomers in these areas, just your thoughts. And I will list them. They, what, where were they with respect to their willingness to challenge faculty and interacting in class, their knowledge of history, keeping up with the news, caring about the social issues, as opposed to having fun events would seem to be very much what the (19)50s were all about with Panty raids, and all that other stuff, awareness of their world, and sensitivity toward people of different colors. How do they differ from the students that were, that preceded them? The students in the (19)50s and late (19)40s, and then the students that came after in 1983? Just your observations?

08:22
AA: Yeah, well, I guess I was a member of the preceding generation, the boomers came after I finished college. But I think the thing to remember about the boomers, and I have given this some thought, since we originally thought since we originally talked s, and I and I, it is impossible to overestimate the effects of elements. And what you see in the boomers, in many respects, the things that the ways in which they differed from previous generations. Many of these things, I think, are the result of television. And the boomers span the period from no exposure, basically, to full immersion in television, if you base it on stuff like the number of homes that had television sets ore the number of homes that have colored television sets, or whatever you want to measure it. They, if you lag it back to when these Boomers were at the most sensitive age in terms of being influenced by that kind of media, say around the age of five or six, then the early Boomers had very little exposure to television, and the late Boomers were fully exposed. And the effects of that, I think, show up clearly, in the data that we collected on the new college freshmen beginning in the in 1966. With the freshmen entering college, that year and they, they would have been born in (19)48, (19)47, (19)48. And the ones who kind of brought up the tail end, which would have been the late (19)70s freshmen entering late (19)70s, the most dramatic changes imaginable occurred in between early and late bloomers in just about every respect. You are really, if you take-take that span of years, you are talking about dramatic changes in the character, values, aspirations, etc., of 18-year-olds. And so, you know, to rump the Boomers into one category, it really kind of masks a lot of that does know these changes were in we have documented them in a number of publications, and so forth. But I do not think we will ever see anything like that, again, that massive change in the really in the population, country and the Boomers were just simply reflecting that because they were the ones, I think who were most influenced by television.

12:28
SM: Yeah, you know the Boomers in my interviews, it has come up over and over again, that people have problems with lumping people in the generation because within a generation, there is so much difference. And for example, those born after the war (19)46 to say (19)56. And the experiences of those born say from (19)57 to (19)64 is totally different. Because those later Boomers were not involved in the antiwar movement. They were they heard about it, they were the young brothers and sisters of the front runners. And so, the experiences are somewhat different. And which is I have had this theory, and I have been asking a lot of my interviewees this question, that what is amazing about the Boomer generation is that you, you have what I consider three criteria that really symbolize what they stood for as elementary school kids, that period between (19)46 and (19)60, when President Kennedy came in, and I liked your thoughts on this, I looked at them and then then you also ask yourself, Well, how did they become so you know, how have they changed so differently in the (19)60s, and the three areas are, number one, the quality of being very quiet. Number two, the quality of fear. And the third one being very naive, which is the case with most young people when they are growing up in elementary school, but the fear centers, you know, the threat of nuclear annihilation, the McCarthy hearings, the fear of speaking up, if you speak up and you were labeled a communist or it was really frowned upon the organization man was what was okay in the (19)50s. And naive because when you saw that television, over and over and over again, you did not see people of color very often, you did not see a whole lot of women, except in roles where they played moms raising kids and stuff. You see him as independent people on the road making decisions. So, there is a lot of things happening here. And then obviously, when we get into the, you do not see a whole lot about the civil rights movement, and then all of a sudden you get to the (19)60s, and things just really change your thoughts on those thoughts about those three qualities in the Boomer generation when they were very young.

15:13
AA: So, I, just to add another comment here about television again with is I think, I think what happened with television was that young people began to become more passive in their, in their recreation. And I think that remained this way ever since. And but most importantly was the message that television was purveying, which was a message of materialism. And not only in the commercial but also in the, in the program, a lot of a lot of the TV series, dialog exposed the world to material wealth, and so forth. And what we saw beginning in the late (19)60s and going on through the talking about 18-year-olds. And continuing through the early (19)80s, there was a dramatic increase in materialism. So, in a sense, the commercial message of television was having was having its intended effect, we were breeding a new generation of people who believe that material wealth was the ultimate goal in life. And whatever form it might take, in the academic, having lots of thoughts, acquiring lots of possession and so forth, so on was, was a very high value. And we were also at the same time, however, running, breeding a generation, a new population, really, of citizens, who were not very reflective. They have done studies on what happens to five- and six-year-olds who watch a lot of television. And the certain circuits in the brain are actually bypassed compared to radios, where-where in listening to the radio, you are these areas of the brain are activated, because we use a lot of you participate in radio with a lot of visual imagery and imagination, and that kind of and, and they are one of the social critics [inaudible] has written several books about this. And his view is that young people are brain damaged today, that their brains are not fully developed, so that we have all the ADD and all this kind of stuff. So, the evidence for the advent of this change in our young people is shown in the Boomers from the early to the late. All of these changes, as each new-new generation a new class, as you will of Boomers, has been more exposed to television as watch more of it. So on to the point where it became saturated, and at which point, all young people were being exposed. And what is interesting is the materialistic values that peaked out in the (19)80 have plateaued in a sense, which you would expect because the degree of exposure has remained high. So that basically the-the Boomers are the guinea pigs for this social experiment of television. They document the effects of this medium on-on our values and attitudes, this sort of thing. Now that there are some confounding factors here and you mentioned some of them, one of them is civil rights movements. So, the early Boomers, I think we were very socially conscious, very, very much more aware of some of these issues than I think the late Boomers were to tell you the truth. And they, they had experienced the Jim Crow bout, and the racist tendencies of the north and the West. And they had to confront that even-even the late Boomers really did not have much exposure to the Jim Crow world. The early ones did, and I think that is why they got so exercised about racial issues. And why civil rights movement really had a lot of white input in the early days, because a lot of thinking, young people suddenly became aware of the growth in equity that they had been exposed to growing up, and that they had taken for granted growing up. And so that began to crack. The early Boomers and so there was a lot of energy, a lot of idealism, a lot of engagement. And I think the antiwar movement was really just the perpetuation of that. The antiwar movement came a little later. But buried in all of this civil rights movement, the antiwar movement was American sexism. You know the- In the antiwar movement, the men provided all the leadership and the women provided sex, or painted signs, or whatever, but they were not really invited into positions of leadership and sharing of power in the, in the civil rights movement, and in the student protests. And so, the woman's movement became a- I think, a-a-an- that, and that really emerged in the late (19)60s that became a competing force for student activism. In fact, a lot of the energy out of the antiwar movement, a lot of it, and on and, and but the Boomers span, all three movements, kind of a tail end of the Civil Rights Movement, which really began in early (19)60s. And is to the kind of culmination of a woman's movement in the city, and in the (19)80s. Now, what, what you’ve got there, are that women were so profoundly influenced by the woman’s movement. And this shows up in the late Boomers. So profoundly influenced that the net result of this was that women and men today, because of this, much more alike than they were at the beginning of the early Boomer day. Basically, feminism effectively come become more right because the women have become much more like the men. Men have changed some, but nowhere near as much as the women. And we have all this is all documented. It is amazing when you compare men and women entering college 18-year-old in the late (19)60s, with their counterparts in years later. It is just a profound change. Even a change in politics. The men used to be to the left of the women, and they have traded places. women now a way to the left of the men. And that is true nationally, not just with college students and women's movements was I think, an impetus for that political change.

25:24
SM: Where would you play saw these other movements that also evolved around in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. We all know that the gay lesbian bisexual movement was strengthened because of Stonewall in 1969. Then you had the Native American Movement, the American Indian Movement, which was in the took over Alcatraz, and of course, it ended sadly, in 1973. At Wounded Knee, you have Earth Day in 1970, really setting in motion the well, the environmental movement as a whole of course, I interviewed Gaylord Nelson many years back and he said they respected the antiwar movement so much that they met with them before they made the decision to have this protest with respect to the importance of understanding the importance of teaching, and then of course, you have also got the Chicano movement, then you have the Young Lords that follow the [inaudible] the Black Panthers, and you have you have all these groups of black power, all these things are happening in the late (19)60s going into the (19)70s. Is that all part of what was going on with the women's movement?

26:36
AA: So, I, the women's movement was very much of sisterhood. [inaudible] And what is interesting now is that this is a short memory we have in this country, the feminists today or the or the, you know, leading women, thinkers and theorists so forth have really forgotten. They I mean, they and women in general today take for granted the-the status of women today, as if it has always been this way. There is no question in my mind that, that is, by far, the biggest social change in our country was brought by the woman’s movement. I think there is no question about it. And every aspect of life was affected by that family life, community life, the life of the individual woman, the life of the individual man, because now suddenly, men have women as, as peers as work [inaudible]. And in the fields that you see. Nearly exclusively men of engineering, law, medicine, and so forth. You know, we have not really had a men's movement yet. That amounted to much of anything, and we may never have one. But the women have certainly been emancipated slavery [inaudible].

28:23
SM: Don’t you think some of the African American students today and people overall forget what it was like to be African American is? Back, I mean it is the same thing. It is like it has always been this way, kind of-

28:36
AA: Absolutely.

28:37
SM: And I know it has even been brought up in the gay and lesbian community with the people I have interviewed that, oh, it has always been this way. I mean, all the battles, but an extreme prejudice.

28:52
AA: I-I- My African American Graduate students, when I tell them my experience growing up in Jim Crow, Washington, DC, they cannot believe it. They think I am making it up.

29:04
SM: Wow. What, what are some of the distinctive characteristic characteristics you have seen in this group of 74 million? I will preface this, first, do you like the term the Boomer generation, do you like it?

29:19
AA: Not really, it is a rubric to refer to a particular group of people that came of age in a particular time, but I think it is. It does a lot of violence to reality. [chuckles] And as the sort of main reason is that the early Boomers were so wildly different from the late later one. And, you know, the pundits like to stereotype you know, were the Boomers, you know, the protesters of the (19)60s and (19)70s? And that is really, really not a very good description.

30:17
SM: Right, What? When you look at the generation, what do you think? Are their strengths and weaknesses? And, and what do they contribute to our society as a group that was not here before or after or during, before World War Two and the end of the war.

30:36
AA: Well, I think the certainly the idea that it is possible to have a bad war. And it is patriotic to protest about it. I think that was a tremendous contribution. Now, that value judgment I just made is not shared by everybody in the country, obviously. But you know, given the stakes involved in warfare, at all levels of it, human, the social and economic, the international, etc. The high stakes of any kind of a war would seem to me to be justify, in a democracy, some discussion and debate and dissent about the act of waiting for one thing, to have a defensive war, but to that have an offensive war where you initiate the hostility. It seems to me worthy of some discussion and debate and the Second World War [inaudible] against that, and there probably would have been a lot more of protesting about the Korean War than there was if it had not come so closely on the heels of World War Two.

32:25
SM: very good point.

32:26
AA: So, the Vietnam War. War are longer now that I think the young people did really pave the way in the draft factor I wax and wane on how important the draft was. The Senate failed with the whole reason I do not I do not really do not agree with that. In any case, that that was a, I think, a major contribution. Another one was language, the use of language, the, you know, the 30 words movement at Berkeley was one of the earliest ample this certainly seems to me, began the loosening up of our language, the freeing up of our language, and I think the use of the free or use of language has been a major contribution, that ability to be authentic and honest with each other.

33:54
SM: Good point.

33:55
AA: I think I think that, if you will forget that. You know, I remember my first trip to Europe as a young man, I had to smuggle a couple of Henry Milller books. And my wife smuggled Ulysses. That change in language is another major cont- I think providing the environment in which the woman's movement could take off was very important. In other words, with the atmosphere of questioning and protesting and with the atmosphere of equity and fairness came out of the civil rights movement and in the student protest movement. People forget that the biggest protest movements, by any measure is not civil rights was not the woman was not the antiwar movement. It was the student’s movement for students’ rights.

35:14
SM: Yes.

35:15
AA: That drew more participants, and there were more protests about student’s rights. So that was, again, an issue of fairness, of empowerment, that sort of thing. So that all of that activity provided an environment in which the woman's movements could really take off. And where it was that women felt comfortable, uh-

35:45
SM: Yeah, you know too, it is, to me, the people that I have talked to, and when I-I am in that front group, because (19)47 is when I was born. And I graduated from college in 1970. And I can remember as a young person, this feeling on college campuses, that we are the most unique generation in American history. And there was a feeling and just a feeling that the Boomers were going to make a statement call themselves Boomers either, but the generation and the (19)60 generation was going to make a big difference in the world by ending all the wars, racism, sexism, homophobia, saving the environment, making the world a better place to live. And now, I am always reflecting just like you are, when you when you reflect on the women's movement, did they? Did they make this world a better place to live? Second, was this just the liberal wing of a generation, the new left, as they always talk about and so-called liberals, and was the rise of the conservative neo cons and the new right. They also were there in the (19)60s and became really powerful in the late (19)70s. And they, they became involved due to the reaction to the movement, the civil rights movement, the antiwar, the environmental, the Native Americans, the women's, the gay and lesbian, they have been kind of reacting to it ever since the late (19)70s. So, I am saying a lot here, but [inaudible] what-what has been the overall impact? Or do they? Did they make a difference in the world by ending any of that stuff that I mentioned?

37:32
AA: Oh, they I think they made a tremendous difference. It is tremendous. I do not even think you can question the difference, because- you know, the thing is, is that the-the protests accomplish their objectives. That was really remarkable and-and they, and they have remained in force, ever since. Women were basically allowed to be like men; have the same power and privileges and opportunities as men, then African Americans, almost all the jury of discrimination was removed. In fact, that, to me, that took the gas out of the civil rights movement, because also, affirmative action became an established policy, in the workplace, in the academia, and everywhere, affirmative action was taken for granted. You know, it has been questioned and challenged the last 20 years, but basically, the same in business industry, they took it for granted. And they still do, but it is in their self-interest is to have representation from different racial groups. And so, it seems to me that that, you know, one of the profound changes, changes from the rights of women and the opportunities for women, the changes in our language, the changes in our in our racial relations and in racial- Now, you know, a lot of the cynics say oh well, you know, the situation for African Americans or some African Americans for large numbers, that is true, but that is in spite of the civil rights movement not because but the snake in the woodpile, if you will, is the materialism. I really, I really believe that is the hidden legacy of corporate takeover of our mind. And that is what television is. And we have become a more materialistic society, and we still are. But that is not something you blame the Boomers for something that happened to while the Boomers were growing up. And, and it shows up in their in their values. As a change from the early Boomers as I said. that materialism is still with us. It is what got Reagan elected. It is now going into the realm in political discourse, money, money, money. We have a political establishment, and a citizenry that’s willing to borrow and spend instead of taxing and spending. Because the, the, the appeal of no taxes or low taxes, is the selfish appeal. An appeal to our selfish. The Kennedys, the 1961 inauguration speech would not fly today. But he made that speech in a very different value climate then today's value climate and the Reagan era, for me was just simply a consequence of this change in value. Not-not, not a cause of it. It- of course, reinforced it, but-but you can see these value changes year by year by year leading up to 1980. And it was pretty clear that something was going to happen politically.

42:17
SM: So, when people say that when they talk about the Boomer generation, and they talk about the new left and-and all the groups involved in the movements that the conservative students and the conservatives were kind of never talked about, even though they were probably some say maybe even larger number than those that were main movement protests and so forth. I have had this in some of my interviews that the conservatives have been excluded when you talk about the Boomer generation and-and then of course, there is there was a national, I think Student Association, there was William Buckley's group that met and then of course, the rise your you mentioned the rise of Ronald Reagan, but it kind of started with Barry Goldwater in (19)64. And those ideas really came to fruition, the late (19)70s. That and that is why we see today, the neo cons and the conservatives and their attacks on the (19)60s. And that generation as a breakup of our society, were the conservative students of that era, which some say were more were larger in number than the new left and the liberal students and students of color.

43:34
AA: No-no, now we have now we have done surveys of that, that is a myth that is- the peak time for the left politically, in terms of political identification was in the early (19)70s. When you had the left outnumbering the right, by better than three to one, we would have never seen anything like that since. As far as defining concomitantly with the materialist because let’s face it, the left does not make a very good appeal to your individual read, right? That is not something that the left is very good at. And-and the right, of course, is all about that. And so that, that helps to account for the fact that now the left barely outnumbers the right. And it has been that way for twenty years. That the left-right balances, are pretty much even lean, tilts slightly left. And it always has, but it is- of course if you break it down by gender, the women are still significantly and then the men significantly right today, and that has been that way for-

45:23
SM: In your view what? You have made reference to several of them already materialism. But in your view, what were the main issues of Boomer generation before they reach the age of 30? And-and I asked the same question, again, what has been the main issues of this generation after the age of 30? Since the oldest are now 64? And the youngest are 49.


45:46
AA: I am not sure that-that the issues are any different for the Boomers today than they are for other people today, you know, younger people today. I do not. I do not, I think it is difficult to single out something called the Boomers in contemporary times, as really being very different from anybody else. We have all been sort of swamped by technology and by materialism and by knowledge, distribution of wealth and that has impacted all of us. I do not know.

46:42
SM: How about before the age of 30?

47:43
AA: Well before the age of 30? Certainly, I think there was, there was a legacy of the days of activism of the days of hope, for humanity, that we-we have power to make things better. I think the, you know, Jimmy Carter was a big disappointment to a lot of the Boomers. He was seen as too timid and, in a way, we were sort of seeing the same things today with Obama, I think people are seeing him as too timid, to willing compromise, who willing to sort of cave in to pressure his enemies. And I think that Carter was the same, although the whole Carter thing was so confounded by the- Iranian contraband, you know, that rumble in the desert has been-been successful. Our perception of Jimmy Carter might be entirely different. And Reagan may never have been elected. Oh, yeah, you have that little military adventure in the desert was the- such a damaging thing that Carter's image and he had nothing to do with it. Bad weather. So, you know, I but I, he was, I think, seen as timid and as a disappointment and not having the courage of [inaudible] and by the, and then Reagan pu-put sort of finality to it, that was the [inaudible] for boomers and [inaudible] and then become as popular as he did further disillusion at least to the Boomers on the left.

49:09
SM: One person told me that when they think of the Boomer generation, they think of white men and women, and they had not, they never thought of even thinking of African Americans and people of different orientation. I have only had a few people say that, but people were upfront about it saying, this is not just about white men and women. So, have you heard that before?

49:38
AA: No but I-I do think that there is a tendency for-for white people, at least, in probably maybe people of color as well to think of Boomers as white. I think that-that is what comes to mind.

50:01
SM: What? What is your- I have gotten a lot of questions here. What is your reaction to conservative thinkers who say most of the problems that Americans did to society today are due to the generation that came of age in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? And I am referring to the drug culture, the sexual freedom, no respect for authority, lawlessness, center, a sense of no moral character or break up the American family, the idea of the welfare state, the rise of special interests, the ugly dressing and clothes that they used to wear rock and roll culture, linked to drugs, that they mocked the IBM mentality of their parents in the (19)50s. And, you know, when I say, you have heard this before, I know that Newt Gingrich, when he came to power (19)94 made commentaries and he is a Boomer. And George Well, over the years has always had articles in his books, shooting at this generation, and of course, you see it today on Fox with Glenn Beck and Mike Huckabee, and even Senator McCain made comments about Hillary Clinton, they are close friends, but made kind of derogatory comments during the campaign a couple years back. So just your thoughts on that?

51:31
AA: Well, it is sort of a revenge thing going on here. I mean, I think that all the attention that the that the activists got during the Boomers, the advent, aggravating people who did not agree with the civil rights movement, or the women's movement or the antiwar movement, or any of that.

51:51
SM: Please speak up to.

51:54
AA: Well, Yeah, I was just going to say that. But there was a lot of attention and a plane that flowed on Boomers on the left, and they did outnumber those on the Right. I think. So, it is important to realize that the psychology of the right, I think, I think, but the psychology of the right is a fear of losing control. It is all about control. And so, now, the right feels better having a big army having a tough belief, tough laws, tough courts, tough judges, you know, we got to maintain control, because we are all flawed center. And so, we need a song, ironically, a strong authoritarian government to keep people under control. And that is a-that is a big part of the psychology of people on the right. And I think, I think they saw the (19)60s and (19)70s as a time of loss of control. people got out of control, so it was very threatening. And so, you know, it is-it is the paradox. Me arguing that we have, you know, the government to say, we got to cut it down, but also to be advocating, this has always been the, the, the contradiction of right wing thought is that, there is theoretical claims of freedom and, and what that really means is freedom to make as much money as you want, and are able to at anybody else's expense is what that really means, which was very narrowly limited to the economic sphere. Right? Because the control is all pervasive on sex life on what you put in your body, so forth. And, and I think that is-that is what we are seeing is just the manifestation of that that dynamic. I think that is why the alliance was the religious right as the and the political right. It is really a pretty new thing. You know it did not exist during the Boomer’s pay day.

54:53
SM: Right.

54:53
AA: That is a relatively and I think that around this whole issue of control.

54:59
SM: You know it is interesting when I lived out in the Bay Area, I am going up to visit a couple days, some old friends, but when I lived out there, there was a minister on the radio. I was I was out there, late (19)83, (19)76 to (19)83. And I will never forget this minister, I was listening to him on a Sunday night, and he said, the world will be a much better place when the last member of the Boomer generation has died. And then he went on his whole sermon was about why because he felt that the not only that those who were the active and protesters, but he said the entire generation, even those that did nothing, were totally subconsciously affected by it. And then it could be nothing, but we create a negativity in our society down the road. It was a I almost threw the radio out the window [laughter] but-but I am. Phyllis Schlafly and David Horowitz and other critics of today's universities say that. Oftentimes they say the troublemakers of the (19)60s now control today's curriculum, and they were referring to obviously the Women's Studies Program, the black studies, gay studies, environmental studies, Asian American, Native American, Chicano, that is what they were referring to. And then, of course, they always say, they are educated. They are indoctrinating, and they are not educating by these things, your thoughts on their thoughts?

56:31
AA: Oh, right. They are, right. They, largely, the curriculum and the faculties are controlled by the troublemakers. And I think the differences in how the troublemakers are perceived and characterized. You know, if these are the people who helped to bring about equality for women, equality for African Americans, the end to an immoral war, the beginning of the end of the suppression of speech. Yeah, they are the troublemakers. And, if that is, you know, that is, that is the group that is in charge of academia right now. Then I am perfectly comfortable with that.

57:34
SM: What did what did universities learn from the students they served in the (19)60s, with particular emphasis on those who protested on campus when activism became the norm? What- I fear that today's universities have forgotten, the lessons that were that they should have learned particularly whether it be in linkage to the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65. And the reasons why it happened. Not being upset with the fact that it did happen but understanding the reasons why it happened. And then all the protests, obviously from babies (19)65, (19)66 through the probably the 1973 time period when activism kind of died on campuses. What-what did universities learn, or do they have amnesia?

58:28
AA: I think the one thing they learned about-about protests was a tactical one.

58:34
SM: Hold on a second. I am going to turn my tape here. Hold on one second. How is your weather out there today?

58:40:
AA: Very cloudy.

58:43
SM: We were-we were supposed to have some pretty strong 60 miles- [tape cuts] I do not know where they would be would it be, but I did not really the only reason. I am back. Go right-ahead.

58:59
AA: Okay. Well, I was going to say that.

59:06
SM: Still there?

59:10
AA: Yes, just a second, I dropped my phone. The- let us see what was on my mind, my mind was wondering-

59:35:
SM: I was wondering what the universities learned from the students and service of the (19)60s, or do they have amnesia?

59:32
AA: they learned I mean, some tactical ways of dealing with protesters, and that is stop their issues, to have a conversation with-with the protesters. And-and in many cases, they did not do that. We did a major study on that during the (19)70 and the real difficulties on campus that came when the administration refused to stop or negotiate with the protesters. That is that. And also, the other one is bringing police on the campus inventorially. Because that was always an instigator to violence. I think they are much more sophisticated tactically, because they were on the other side of the protests during the during the (19)70s, late (19)60s, early (19)70s. So, they learned that much. Not allowed to negotiate with seemingly unreasonable people.

1:01:04
SM: Yeah, I think their whole experience at Kent State and Jackson State Police and guard coming on campus, when I was in Ohio State, Dr. Philip trippy, you may have known was my well, he was-he was one of the reasons why I went to Ohio State. And then I had a great advisor. In Dr. Roosevelt, Johnson went on to Johns Hopkins University, and they were like, to close the faculty members. And we have a lot of classes dealing with the issue of illegal aspects in higher education, about who can and cannot come on a university campus. And so, you are really right down there with respect to responding to that. Still there?

1:01:46
AA: Yes, I think, I think they-they learned a lot about the tactics. You know, the problem is, is that we do not have these big, weeping social issues, that can galvanize a lot of people. You know, you enumerated all the other much smaller scale protest movements of various sorts. Not only are they not able to galvanize large numbers of students around an issue, but also the ethical and moral issues are not as clear cut. You know, just to take one example, in the American Indian distaste for team mascot name, as you know-

1:02:49
SM: Cleveland Indians, and-

1:02:52
AA: Basically, the main issue that seems to get the attention of activists in the American community, and one of my former doctoral students, devoting pretty much all of her spare time to this issue. And it does not, it does not get any attention from people outside of the community involved. Like racial discrimination got the attention of a lot of white people. And gender discrimination got the attention of a lot of men. And of course, woman was a large enough group. It did not need the men, but it nevertheless, there was a lot of attention. So, these, a lot of these more specialized protests do not seem to get that much attention. And, and also, I think the-the, what is required to deal with it is a fairly minor things like, okay, Stanford, led the way back in the (19)60s, aging, his name from the Indians to the Cardinals. And then, I mean, big deal. And of course, professional sports teams are refusing fraud. Basically, that-that is the problem is it is the issues do not get the attention, get the empathy, empathy of people outside of the group.

1:04:49
SM: Bear with me here I have a question to ask here. And we will read this thing-thing, man, we will read this one. Universities today- This is just me thinking. Universities today emphasize service learning, and really have a push for volunteerism as important goals and preparing students for the world they will face in the future, by giving them the sense of helping and caring for those less fortunate than themselves. However, I feel universities are afraid of the term activism, which is really a 24 to 24/7 mentality as opposed to volunteerism that is oftentimes required, especially in Greek life organizations, and but although others do it on their own, maybe for two hours a week, because they we because they remember a time of disruption in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Where students demand. Where students were making demands that is greater questioning of what money is or accepted or used from corporations linked to war. These are just examples. In my right in my perception that money over ideas and social conscience is the number one thing in higher ed today. Because they are constantly doing fundraising, everybody has a link to it. And if there is a threat to that, these other you know, a lecture, they want to put a lecture because of that speaker is controversial, it could affect the money coming into the university. Are universities afraid activism, the term activism?

1:06:32
AA: That is hard to say? I guess I would put it differently. I think, what the materialism has infected. Is university, far beyond what we could have imagined, back in the (19)60s and (19)70s. And it has been exacerbated by policymakers who starve the institutions. And they find out, they can get away with that, because the institutions have a way of compensating mainly to raise their fees. And so, I think the-the focus on money is-is way too powerful. And it distorts our thoughts, distort our policies. And so, you know, we-we hire fundraisers to lead our institutions rather than educational leaders. And I think that is a huge mistake.

1:08:06
SM: That was what Arthur Chickering said, when I interviewed him, about six months ago, at the end of the interview of a job and revenue, book, education, identity, in depth, comparing about the boom generation, I asked him this. Is there one final thought you would like to give me as we end the interview? Is there anyone concern you have about higher education today? And he said, yes. Corporations have again, taken over.

1:08:34
AA: He is right?

1:08:35
SM: And, and you see, that is what really upsets me as a student, the (19)60s and you think of the Free Speech Movement, you think of Mario Savio, whether you like the guy or not, he is his voice. And if you read his speeches and what he had to say, to universities, about ideas, that is why I went to school, I went to school because I loved to learn about ideas. It is not about corporations taken over. And I know and so I have interviewed quite a few people linked to the Free Speech Movement. And even though they like Clark Kerr, as a human being, and many of them because he got fired by Ronald Reagan, and that was a plus in the eyes of the movement because that was a good thing. They did not because they just did not like Reagan so much that they call that a badge of honor for-for him. But, you know, he talked about the knowledge factory, well knowledge factories, what that upset a lot of students at Berkeley, and I tell you, it worries me today that history has forgotten in the university. And those students back then we were really fighting for the students of the day because the universities of our learning and ideas of education first, will last and forever. That is just me.

1:09:49
AA: I would agree with you. And the tragedies that we seem to have come to the place now where bottom line seems to predominate over everything else. And it is, it is bad.

1:10:13
SM: I want to get this quartered here that you have a tremendous interview that I have read over the web with T. Mills, do you remember this interview? And this is a quote from you, you have already mentioned this, but I want it for the record. This is a quote from you. “The problem is really larger than that, because the society is so different than it was in 1969. Kids grow up with a different set of stimulation, their ability to concentrate, their ability to read to listen well is different. It is different primarily because of TV, and the electronic media.” [chuckles] And that is-that is a beautiful quote [inaudible]. I actually sent this quote to some of my friends on Facebook that are in higher ed, did not. You basically, that was what you have been saying.

1:11:02
AA: Yeah, and, you know, we even tested this out, we-we studied a couple of cohorts of college undergraduates to see how their materialistic values develop during college. And, of course, in general, they tend to decline. And I think that is one of the salutary effects of the college experience is, students began to reassess their values and priorities. And this has been true from the earliest studies back in the (19)30s. That the college experience tends weaken your materialistic values, but there are individual exceptions. And one of the interesting studies we did was to see what-what kinds of experiences during the college years tend to promote materialistic values and guess what it is the television that you watch in your, in strengthening your materialistic values.

1:12:25
SM: You mentioned in that interview with cane Mills that the students today, in 2010, that you stated in the same interview is as much different is a much different clientele than those in the (19)60s and (19)70s. In the year that because their values are different. There is less learning for its own sake. And we learn in order to get credentials, get a job and to make more money. And you are-you are pretty good at saying, this is not a blame game. But it is just the basic fact that our culture is different. When you talk about their values are different. Could you just explain how the Boomer-Boomer generation values are different than say the millennial values of today?

1:13:13
AA: Well, first of all, they are much less politically and gay today. They are more cynical about politics. So of course, that leaves the field to the people who want to manipulate the political world, because the populace is not that interesting. And that is reflected of course in voting patterns and a lot of other things. The- I also think that not having access to print media that you and I were used to, is another factor because I really believe that print media, getting your news, through print media is a different experience. Again, you are more reflective. I think getting it off the internet or on television, which is worst thing is- makes you much more vulnerable to being manipulated, frankly. And so, I think it is easier today to manipulate public opinion than it ever has been. The so-called mainstream media are responsible here, it seems to me again, because they are primarily out to make a buck. And so, you know, if it bleeds, it leads, and the most outrageous things that politicians say and do get the attention. And so, people who are willing to be outrageous who are willing, and the attention really is-is simply look what this person said, rather than this person made up a story or this person lied, or this person to sort of the facts, they do not have that kind of reporting anymore in the mainstream media very much more. And maybe we get a little bit of that on MSNBC. But it is not right-wing propaganda. It is a being a funnel, for right-wing propagandists, I am overstating the case, but the problem is that our brains are being watched. And we do not know it. And there are some people who-who resist it. You know, years ago, Leo Postman used this wonderful metaphor in the sidebar, you know, what education really needs is the capacity to develop our craft detectors. I think he is lifting a line from Ernest Hemingway or somebody earlier. But the idea that, particularly this day, where were barraged with opinions and, and distortions and lies and so forth, is that we need to have the capacity to sort out reality from propaganda. And I think we lacked that kind of critical capacity. People do not have it.

1:17:14
SM: You-you mentioned in-in a lot of your writings that one of the key components of a successful college career is the emphasis on diversity. And I 100 percent agree. I went to Ohio State because I knew in that program, even in early (19)70s, little (19)70s, that multicultural diversity was a very important part of their program. And I was honored to have Dr. Johnson's my advisor who really, you know, made a strong in that particular area. But there, you mentioned in [inaudible] talking about diversity, that there were several ways of talking about it, you felt it was important that if you had to preach it, then do it, you were able to incorporate it into your courses or workshops and speakers on campus. And students that are encouraged to interact between the races. And then you see the very end student outcomes that are not positive come out of this emphasis. Have you-have you again, respond to these critics? And again, I always bring this because I would have to have both sides here, who say that some that all of these activities centered around indoctrination, not education. Because when you say preaching it and incorporating it, I think you have already responded with respect to an earlier question on this, but diversity is important, but for those some students today, and I hate it, I do not like it forced down my throat. And I have had that from some of my conservative students over the past 10 to 15 years.

1:18:51
AA: Well, I do not know exactly what they mean by forced down your throat. You know-

1:18:56
SM: Well, that is, there is nothing wrong with preaching the importance of it in the university environment for its students. That could be from administrators or faculty members?

1:19:08
AA: Well, you know, the, the whole idea of a liberal education is based on this concept of exposing the students to new and different points of view, people, cultures, ideas, and so forth. That is-that is the whole idea behind it. And of course, there are some people who are do not want their kids to be exposed to a liberal learning, and so they will send them to an evangelical college or the Military Academy or something like that. Wonderful aspects of our diversity. But the vast majority of our institutions are committed to liberal learning, and to providing a liberal education. And a good part of that involves exposing the students to new and different people and ideas. And, you know, what is really interesting is that we have just finished in fact, you might want to check out the microsite he developed for the book that is coming out at the end of this month. So, cultivating the spirit, “How college can enhance students’ inner lives,” that is the subtitle. Anyway, you can just go to cultivatingthespirit.com. And the website, indorses the book and so forth. But we were very excited about this. Because what we found is that experiences that expose students to new and different kinds of people and ideas and cultures, so forth. experiences like study abroad, interdisciplinary study, service learning, and even interracial interactions. All these experiences contribute to student's spiritual development and enhances their lives. And when we have defined spirituality as-as a multi-dimensional quality of all traits like equitability and your sense of connectedness to the world, your, your ethic of caring for other stuff like that, these are spiritual qualities that we looked at. And, and, and all of these kinds of liberal learning experiences, enhance spiritual development. And spiritual development, in turn, enhances the college experience in general. Qualities developed in college, they get better grades, they are more likely to be satisfied with college, they become more interested in graduate study and so forth. So, it is a very exciting study, and we had no idea we are going to find something quite-quite exciting.

1:22:28
SM: It is amazing, because as I am reading this question here, where were the students in the (19)60s and (19)70s, with respect to spirituality, the perception is the perception that you read from the books on the (19)60s is as they were reared in large numbers going to church and synagogues in the (19)50s. And that religion was very important then. And, and of course, religion was an issue when John Kennedy was elected president there of all the concerns of the Catholics, the pope would control his thought. But as the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, showed many less organized religions, and became involved in what I call the inner spirituality. We saw it with the Beatles, we saw with rap groups, we felt with entertainers that will the media portrayed Zen Buddhism became very strong. Course people went into communes and so forth. And so, they continue their religion but not in a structured way. are your thoughts on the Boomer generation and their sense of spirituality?

1:23:44
AA: I think it was expressed in their-in their moral outrage about, about the war about racism, both myself I think, I think we are sensitive of meaning and purpose and value and that sort of thing came out in that form. And it was all self-righteousness involved, and no question about that. But I think in general, the run of the mill student protests were motivated by altruism and by concern with social justice and equity and caring about the others. And that is an important aspect of one spirituality is one sense of connectedness, and people. Some-some theorists argue that it is the essence of what spirituality is all about. But, you know, the religious engagement Actually, we found declines during college while your spatial qualities tend to get stronger. Even though spirituality is more often a quality of religious people, and is not always that question about that, but in spite of the fact that the two kinds of qualities are positively associated, one of them decline in college and the other gets stronger. And I think that has a lot to do with the fact that, to a certain extent, the entering college students religious versus a product, a heavily a product of the family experience. They get away from that he is exposed to other religions and other religious perspectives. And then he begins to wonder, well, maybe this is not the one and only fate, and so forth. And I think that because we have a measure of religious struggle and that-that does show a substantial growth during college.


1:26:07
SM: I think it was about eight years ago, at West Chester University at the Student Affairs meeting. I do not know how it came out during the round came along around any news to report and someone said, well, are you aware of the students meeting in the basement of Challenger Hall, and they are meeting at seven o'clock in the morning before classes meet students of color or sexual orientation? Male, female or all ethnic groups. And I said why? Well, because one of their fellow students was killed in an automobile accident, over the Christmas holidays. And when they came back, they were meaning to try to figure out, why did this happen to her? And what is my meaning? Why am I here? And it had nothing to do with whether you are Catholic or Jewish, you know, Muslim, Protest- It had nothing to do with any of that it had to do with the fact of they loved the students. They could not understand why she had been taken away in and acc-. the person was a drunk, that did it. And he was just coming back from Christmas break, and he was killed. And so, they were just sat over there for dinner. they were talking about why are we here? What is our purpose?

1:27:22
AA: Yeah, and that is-that is exactly what-what we call that a spiritual quest. That shows a lot of growth during college, and they begin to attach more importance to exploring questions like that the big quest of life and living,

1:27:39
SM: Right. One of the things that-

1:27:41
AA: I am going to have to take off. So, can we wrap this up in a minute?

1:27:50
Yeah, I ever run another five pages of questions, but I guess I will not be able to get them in. Can I ask two more questions?

1:27:54
AA: Okay.

1:27:55
SM: Maybe; let us see? Which ones do I want to ask you? I guess. One of the questions is that in the in the late (19)80s, and early (19)90s, political correctness was a very, we heard that all the time on college campuses, the PC, and there is a sharp attack on some of the programs we mentioned, and so forth. And then, of course, in the (19)50s, we saw attacks on trying to find communists, you know, behind every wall or whatever. Did you think when you heard all these talks about political correctness in the late (19)80s, and (19)90s. Any comparison with McCarthyism in the (19)50s trying to drown out people that in a university environment that for whatever reason?

1:28:51
AA: I have not heard that comparison, but I-I understand it, I mean, I can see the parallel and it probably has some validity to it because, like with any-any social movements, they are going to be excesses. And I think some of the political correctness, you know, represents an excess is, you know, inevitable social movement. And I, my sense about it is that is that we just should not take ourselves too seriously. [laughs] That have a bit of a sense of humor about-about that. You know, it is interesting that the phrase political correctness was actually coined by people on the web to and they would use it to joke with each other about-about being too clapper with language or whatever. The right picked it up and ended against it. Last-

1:30:02
SM: We had a-we had a conservative politician in the mid (19)90s. Coming to the university checking to make sure faculty members were in their office. And they were supposed to be looking at liberal [inaudible]. It was unbelievable. And I thought is this McCarthyism all over again?

1:30:18
AA: Listen, I know a guy in the Department of Education when the Reagan administration came in. They sent some guy with a clipboard around to one office after another, classifying people as to their politics. And I would say how they would classify you, and he says, as a communist.

1:30:41
SM: Oh, my God.

1:30:42
AA: Okay. Department of Education.

1:30:45
SM: Oh, my God. My last question here is that data has shown that less than 16 percent, were involved in any sort of activism within the Boomer generation, the (19)60s or (19)70s. And that could be conservative or liberal activism. People that I have interviewed for this book, have said it was much less than 15 percent. Do you have data to verify this? As far as values are concerned. Do you have data to show the impact that this period had on Boomer youth both consciously and subconsciously, as time went by?

1:31:20
AA: You know, it all depends on the, you know, the most widely participated in protest was, of course, first day in 1971, (19)70, (19)71. Whenever they say was, we do a national study of this of this whole issue. In the published in a book called The Power of Protest, it is a jokey book of 19- whenever that was 1980, I cannot remember exactly when it might have been earlier 1977. But a lot of it is in there. I could not dig that out right now. But there is a lot of sorts of normative data on how many participated and what impact that participation had on them and that kind of thing. And so, you might want to check that out.

1:32:16
SM: What is the name of that Book?

1:32:19
AA: The Power of Protest. There were four of us who were authors if I recollect my wife, and I think we had four authors on that.

1:32:36
SM: What do you think the legacy will be in this generation once they are all gone? What will the historians’ educators and-and the sociologists be saying about the generation and secondly, in the current way, you feel this generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, with so much division, that they will not be healed. The reason I asked this question is because I took a group of students to Washington in 1995 and I cannot understand this [inaudible]. And they were very concerned that the Boomer generation that they had seen on film reminded them of the Civil War generation that they had been reading about in their books, where divisions were so strong between black and white male and female gainsay. Those who supported the war and those who were against the war that that they were going to go to their grave like the Civil War generation bitter, feeling hate remorse and not feeling like they did in the Civil War. So basically, it is a two-part question, question of healing and the question of the legacy.

1:33:53
AA: I think if they it depends on who they are going to believe. You know, the right-wing propaganda machine is well oiled and has starting with, I guess, the Nixon and on with [inaudible], with these are books that are being drowned out by the Heritage Foundation and the taser and so forth. If you want to believe those characterizations, when you know, you are going to, you know, feel like you are a failure, nothing happens, but deceit to me. We got to look at the facts. And the facts are the generation initiated a lot of very-very important, positive changes and provided an atmosphere for other social movements to take foothold. And also, they popularize the idea of a value-based approach to public policy and government, so forth, as opposed to a cynical power approach. And so, there is so many positive aspects to it. And the excesses are easy to burlesque like political correctness, like reverse discrimination, and so forth. And but I think in, all in all, it has been very positive force in our society and-and the folks who, who were part of that movement, need to step up and be counted. So, you know, we are proud of what we accomplished, and we think society is better off for it, and it is not drugs and rock and roll.

1:36:16:
SM: Much more I thank you; do you have any other final thoughts?

1:36:20
AA: I think that is about it. I really got to run.

(End of Interview)

2010-10-15

Stephen McKiernan

Alexander W. Astin

96:20

English

Binghamton University Libraries

audio/mp4

Sound

1 Microcassette

Audio

College teachers; Authors; Astin, Alexander W.--Interviews

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