Interview with John Filo

Filo, John ; McKiernan, Stephen

John Filo is a photographer who took the picture of the 1970 Kent State shootings, in which a 14 year old girl grieves over the body of a dead young man. This picture won him the Pulitzer prize. He is now a photography director for CBS in NY.

ND

In copyright

2017-03-14

McKiernan Interviews

27:48

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: John Filo
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: Not Dated
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(Start of Interview)

SM (00:03):
Okay, go right ahead.

JF (00:04):
But screen token, everyone was appalled. Everyone was appalled that young people get their news from the Daily Show, the Colbert Report, or listen to the late-night talk people, and they were joking sarcasm, with the powers that be. But, you go and watch it. And you go, they speak way more truth, than they speak comedy and that what maybe is why it is funny.

SM (00:33):
Right. A couple final quick questions here. Why in your opinion, did the Vietnam War end?

JF (00:41):
Why did it end?

SM (00:41):
Yes.

JF (00:45):
I think people were just tired of it. I mean, why it ended is, there was no good reason to continue it. I mean, it was a civil war going on in that country that we were trying to get involved with. At some point, they realized, communists were not going to get in votes and canoe on over.

SM (01:08):
Do you think-

JF (01:09):
See, I mean, I was brought up on that domino effect-

SM (01:11):
Right. Yep. Yep.

JF (01:12):
... in grade school. Well, if you let this country fall, then this country was going to fall, then this country was going to fall and this country was going to fall. But at the same time, communism was losing its influence too, in the world. I do not know. Why it ended? All I know is I was glad it ended. It took too long to end.

SM (01:35):
Do you feel college students played an important part? If you were to pick between one of these two, college students and protests on college campuses or Middle America, when they finally realized the war was not worth it because their sons and daughters were coming home in caskets.

JF (01:53):
Well, I do not know so much in caskets, but you had many, once again, I think it is many different levels. Six people, a long time to get a change going on. They do not want to hear it from just one voice. But I think, did you have that friendly fire book?

SM (02:14):
Yes.

JF (02:14):
Out about the same time.

SM (02:16):
Yes.

JF (02:18):
There were scandalous stories about the bodies that were coming back. Some of them were filled with, in the thoracic cavity, being filled with drugs. There was a drug ring. And there was all kind of nasty little, it was not a generational story anymore. It was just like, and so if we win, what happens? We have an air base closer to... And then again, it is like, you have these submarines patrolling the seas, communist and US. They could wipe out the earth how many times over. It gets to a point where it is just like, okay. And there were leaders long before Kennedy that said, could never get into ground war in Asia. It is an old military thing, we said that.

SM (03:18):
Has the wall itself in Washington D.C., which I know you visited. How important has that been toward healing the boomer generation? Or is it mostly just the vets and their families?

JF (03:32):
I think it affects all of us at certain times. But I never understood. But I know there were people that did it, but when I never understood this part, people I knew, I do not think anyone was ever upset at a soldier that they were seeing. You hear the stories. I came back and I was spit upon, as a killer of Vietnamese babies. Where I came from, I think everyone had compassion for the soldier. I think we were all realizing that the soldier was just part of the bigger problem. I mean, because under orders you were drafted, you had to go. And I think this war in Iraq, could have been over too, had there been a draft. But what they have done is send people back, three and four times.

SM (04:22):
How important has music been in the lives of Boomers and in your eyes, who are the artists you feel shaped the generation, including the songs that had the greatest impact?

JF (04:34):
Yeah, music was very important. Music was sort of like the thing you could interpret and listen to. And there were still obviously different styles, but I think it all started, for me, I think it started with the folk movement, bodied finally by Bob Dylan. And then you had your other songs, other rock bands that brew against war, killing. I mean, that was a big part of that music of that generation.

SM (05:11):
When you look at some of the musicians, whether it be Joan Baez or Bob Dylan, Phil Oaks, Pete Seeger, Arlo Guthrie, they were popular on college campuses and also because they were activists. So there was that mentality, and they lived their whole lives that way they can continue. Some have passed on and some continue. Richie Havens that whole group. A last question before the general things is, when the best history books are written, and what do you think the lasting legacy of the boomer generation will be?

JF (05:50):
Well, I do not know.

SM (05:50):
And that is probably 50 years, after the boomer generation is in their eighties.

JF (06:00):
I do not know. I honestly do not know. I cannot think of any other generation, other than the roaring (19)20s that you remember having an influence on culture so much. I honestly do not know. I have not really given that much thought. I would think that the fact that it did help America, I mean, it is a very historic time. From coming up through the Civil Rights Movement and wars will somehow always be with us, it seems like, in some small or large aspect. It will not be on that scale that Great Wars were, but it seems to me. But I think within the generation of seeing civil rights and ending with a black president and some shifts that are not yet determined.

SM (07:09):
And he is still considered a boomer. He is a young boomer. And then of course Bill Clinton was a boomer and so was George Bush.

JF (07:16):
I mean, I think, that is what it takes. There was a quote somewhere, when [inaudible] Kennedy, [inaudible] or was it Martin Luther. Someone says, how long do you think it would take for America to have a viable black candidate? And I think the quote was back in the six- 40 years.

SM (07:43):
I think it was Dr. King.

JF (07:43):
Dr. King.

SM (07:44):
I think it was Dr. King. So you might have said, in one of his speeches.

JF (07:47):
40 years.

SM (07:47):
Yeah, and it might have been-

JF (07:47):
It is almost pathetic, almost.

SM (07:57):
Yeah. I am going to mention just some names here and just get quick responses. Your thoughts on these people, these are personalities from the era. Tom Hayden?

JF (08:06):
All right. He was a West Coast leader and then became politician. I do not have any comments.

SM (08:09):
Jane Fonda?

JF (08:19):
Jane always liked acting and same things. I think she was misused too by the...

SM (08:27):
Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the hippies?

JF (08:30):
Yeah. Yeah. I think they sort of took it the other way. Took it to the other side.

SM (08:36):
Timothy Leary?

JF (08:39):
Yeah. No way. Yeah. These are people I did not... You would look at and you would go, wow.

SM (08:46):
Okay. How about Richard Nixon?

JF (08:48):
You would go wow there too. I mean, I remember him involved in, what was it? Was not there a big scandal in the (19)50s? They found the film in the pumpkin.

SM (08:57):
Yeah, Checkers.

JF (08:59):
Checkers.

SM (09:00):
He had to give his Checkers speech. I am not sure if Checkers is up there in heaven with him. How about Spiro Agnew?

JF (09:13):
Yeah, battering A bombs of, they get to visit. Yeah, there it is. You are a typical politician.

SM (09:16):
Yep.

JF (09:16):
Do not be looking at me, criticizing, even though I am doing something totally illegal.

SM (09:21):
Eugene McCarthy?

JF (09:24):
Another leader.

SM (09:28):
And George McGovern?

JF (09:30):
George McGovern, same way. World War II veteran. Who heard young voices. I mean, yeah, just could not get it together. He was a real generational candidate.

SM (09:53):
John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy?

JF (09:53):
Yeah. As I get older, my feelings are more with Bobby. John, I was too young with. Definitely Bobby, I think.

SM (10:02):
Lyndon Johnson?

JF (10:04):
I am sorry.

SM (10:04):
Lyndon Johnson?

JF (10:05):
I Know. I think that man, considering his background, I think he did a lot of great things for the country. I mean, that whole great society, is not so much that, but his homework and the civil rights. A surprising person, as far as I am concerned. I would have guessed him to be so mainline politically. So non-controversial.

SM (10:31):
How about Robert McNamara?

JF (10:43):
Well, there we go. Yeah. How many years later, apologized.

SM (10:44):
Mm-hmm. How about the black power, the term black power and the people like Kiwi Newton, Bobby Seal, Eldridge Cleaver, that group?

JF (10:52):
Well, I think, from being a white person, I think we needed these people to be like, they were pointers. Wow. These people have a lot of, [inaudible] hate. But then you had to, they used to made you find out the reason why. You had to look at the condition of [inaudible].

SM (11:17):
And as a fact, and as a photographer, you are the only person I am asking this to. What was your thought of that Tommy Smith picture with him fist raised and John Carlos?

JF (11:26):
I thought it was a great photo. I thought it was a great photo, it was a very rogue photo. That is the point. They knew the consequences. They knew that they were going to be severely criticized, not ostracized. I think they were.

SM (11:45):
Yeah. We had Tommy on the campus and I think he knew what was coming, by doing it. George Wallace?

JF (11:55):
Another drum beater. Oh, wow. I remember, I even met Orville Faubus.

SM (12:05):
You did?

JF (12:05):
One on one. He was one of the nice guys. And then you realize, I was not going to let them come into Little Rock.

SM (12:14):
How about Ronald Reagan?

JF (12:15):
I do not know. He was a great communicator.

SM (12:15):
Danielle Ellsberg?

JF (12:15):
There is another one standing up for [inaudible] rights, right?

SM (12:15):
Yep. Benjamin Spock?

JF (12:35):
I got to meet him too and spend some time with him.

SM (12:37):
Oh, you are lucky.

JF (12:38):
He is a guy that changed a lot of attitudes, changed a lot of thinking, and boy he got blanks against the war. Just destruction. Longshoreman held up his sailboat delivery and, oh my God.

SM (12:56):
How about the Berrigan-

JF (12:57):
Could meet a nicer man.

SM (12:59):
Phillip and Daniel Berrigan?

JF (13:10):
Same thing. Had to do what they had to do.

SM (13:10):
And then some of the women leaders, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan?

JF (13:15):
Fantastic. What a great thing. What a great thing, pointing out sexism stuff. You just do not realize all this was going on, in the (19)50s.

SM (13:34):
Barry Goldwater?

JF (13:38):
Do not remember him. Just, little too conservative.

SM (13:45):
These are just some of the terms that boomers will remember as they grew up. Tet, T-E-T. You know what Tet was?

JF (13:51):
Yeah.

SM (13:53):
What is your thoughts on Tet?

JF (13:55):
Tet Offensive?

SM (13:55):
Yes.

JF (13:55):
Yeah.

SM (13:55):
That was (19)68.

JF (13:58):
Wow. Well, that is when a lot of the, are you thinking that is when a lot of the people that were for the war started thinking, "Oh, I do not know"?

SM (14:08):
It was around that timeframe.

JF (14:09):
Yeah.

SM (14:10):
Watergate?

JF (14:15):
Yeah. That is what you said. Boy, those guys are just power crazy. They probably have the election long ago, but they are going to make sure.

SM (14:23):
Hippies?

JF (14:23):
Yeah, hippies were, they are fun.

SM (14:30):
And how about the yippies?

JF (14:32):
Oh, the yippies were even stranger. The hippies, they actually believe what they did for a little while.

SM (14:39):
How about the counterculture? That term, the counterculture?

JF (14:44):
Yeah. That sort of, you realize you did not have to, I think at a time it had to be known as a counterculture, but then they realized, for you to change thing, you had to be sort of absorbed in the mainstream with countercultures dots. But by saying counterculture, it is sort of, it puts you in another uniform. Like being a hippie or being a yippie. You realize if you are going to make changes, you got sort of dress like them.

SM (15:15):
Students For Democratic?

JF (15:17):
I was more impressed with boomers that did go to bat, put on a three-piece suit, go and argue.

SM (15:24):
What were your favorite clothes of the counterculture?

JF (15:27):
Favorite clothes?

SM (15:28):
Yeah.

JF (15:29):
I do not-

SM (15:29):
Is there something that stuck out? Everybody heard about the [inaudible] jacket early on.

JF (15:33):
Well, my favorite or favorite to wear?

SM (15:36):
No, just the favorite clothes that you liked.

JF (15:38):
Oh, I think I was impressed with the, since I never had any hips, I was always impressed with hip-huggers and flair pants. And I said, "Man, I must look really cool if I put them on and look like some circus clown." Because I did not have thin legs, thin body to where fashion, the fashion hung. All I did was flare pants pointed to my flaws.

SM (16:11):
Woodstock?

JF (16:13):
Yeah. I never went, but it was the idea of it. I was like, wow, you are going to go, it sounds miserable.

SM (16:21):
Well, a lot of people cleanly were there, that probably were not.

JF (16:23):
I know. I know. It is like, what is his name, scored his hundred-point game. The NBA. It is like Kent State too. It is like how many people said they were there?

SM (16:44):
Oh, that is true. That is true. Vietnam veterans against the war?

JF (16:44):
All right. Yeah. I think they have probably achieved a lot more than anyone gives them credit for. Especially when, you actually had decorated heroes.

SM (16:56):
Were there any books of the era that stood out amongst any others? Any written books?

JF (17:03):
Wow. I am trying to think what was... You mean the sort of went pop or sort of-

SM (17:12):
It could be authors or people who wrote.

JF (17:17):
All I remember is the new, I mean, everyone read Tolkien, but then Castaneda came along on a separate reality and the native Mexican drug, American kind of drugs off the land kind of thing. Yeah.

SM (17:34):
How about the favorite movies of the era?

JF (17:44):
Oh, geez. There was a lot of movies I think it was, that made nothing, what was it? Living at the Ridge or Plaza or something.

SM (17:56):
There was The Graduate, which was a big one.

JF (17:57):
So The Graduate. Yeah, it was a...

SM (18:00):
Midnight Cowboy and that whole group.

JF (18:02):
Right.

SM (18:05):
See, anything else here? I have John Dean down here too, only because he was part of the Watergate group. He is the guy that spilled the beans, supposedly. I guess that is about it. I cannot... Oh, communes?

JF (18:19):
Communes. Yeah. That was just like, yeah, I knew people that went to a few and they go, "Man, it just turned into, it always turns into ugly human center." It seemed like. I mean, I am amazed that some people put out for years. And then someone told me, there are still a few in existence, I do not know if it is going on.

SM (18:46):
Yeah, I think George Bush is in charge of one. The only thing I am going to mention in terms of the books that were very popular, the two are, Greening of America, if you remember that book? Which was Charles Reich and then the Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. And then Tom Wolf was a big, popular guy during that period too. I guess he still is. Are there any questions that you thought I was going to ask and did not ask?

JF (19:22):
Not really. Not really.

SM (19:23):
Nope. And what do you think the lasting legacy at Kent State will be?

JF (19:30):
Why?

SM (19:32):
Okay.

JF (19:33):
I do not know. That sort of needs a guarded, it almost needs a guarded position. I guess, it is whatever groups want have define it as, but I think the legacy for me is that, is there a way to have free speech in this country and in a time of maybe disapproval, without it ever coming to violence?

SM (20:04):
Mm-hmm. As a person like myself who just worked almost 30 years in higher ed. By the way, I just retired.

JF (20:15):
Wow.

SM (20:15):
I had retired to write my book and then I am going back to work because I put this off. I took early retirement so that I could finish this book and then write it and then go back and do the things I want to do, beyond. I forget what I was going to ask here, the final question. Oh no, I lost my train of thought.

JF (20:35):
Keep going. That happens to me too.

SM (20:35):
Golly. It was a final-

JF (20:40):
I mean, you could call me in a couple days and I will say I should have never said that. I should have said that.

SM (20:43):
Yeah. Well, the question I was going to ask is this, because it goes back to the activism. I think universities, this is just Steve McKiernan I am thinking of writing about it because I have firsthand experiences, not only myself, but others that have worked at other universities. I think there is a fear of activism on university campuses and I am not meaning volunteerism because I think the administrators who are running universities today are mostly boomers. Or down the road will be the children of boomers. And there is a fear of, they will have the memories of what happened in the (19)60s and they will always be out there supporting it and saying they support it. But there is much more controls and fear. Your thoughts on that? Because today's parents, when they send their kids to college, do not want disruption of their sons or daughter's education because they are paying good money and they want their sons and daughters to get a degree. And so there is a fear of disruption and if disruption happens, I will take my son or daughter away. So I do not know.

JF (21:44):
Yeah, I mean it is, I remember going to all these universities with my daughter. She just finished her freshman year at UMass Amherst and it is like everyone talks about her class. In four years, these will be the people that help you get jobs. And in other words, there was a big strong commitment that you get on this conveyor belt and you are going to get off it in four years. And you are all going to get on it right now and you are all going to get off of it in four years. There is no, well, if it takes you five. The packages are all same. There is your junior year abroad, there is this and there is that, and there is there, go do this in Central America or something. Yeah. There was no room for question of self-discovery thing. Hit your wagon up and we will on hit you in four years.

SM (22:54):
Yeah. Because in the (19)60s, the boomers, there was a questioning about the IBM mentality of it. And now that does not seem to be, I do not know.

JF (23:01):
No, there does not seem to be any matter of fact. No one can promise them anything. That is the other thing. There is research grants for government work maybe. And that is about it. And I mean, I am talking to people that are graduating from Columbia, that pay big money to graduate, go to the journalism school. And I am saying, that is great. Now you are going to take a job that pays half that, it cost you to get the degree. Yeah. There is all sorts of free adjustment that have to be made. Now all of a sudden science and the engineering is back in good grace. But on the other hand, I am still, what do we do for a plumber and what are we doing? I mean, I am not saying whatever, but here is my daughter and I said, "What did you just signed up for?" Psychology, but I think I want to move into environmental science.

SM (24:10):
Yeah. One thing today's college students do not do is, they do not question the money that is coming in or going out from the university. They do not even know what is going in and coming out. So whereas a lot of the students in my era, you are era, questioned that.

JF (24:22):
Yeah. Absolutely.

SM (24:24):
I had spoken to Mary when she was at Kent State and last time, and I promised to send her pictures that I took, not as nice as yours, but I sent her the pictures and she was going to interview me, but she has not correspondence since she got my pictures. So maybe she does not want to be a part of the project after all. She is a very private person.

JF (24:48):
[inaudible] but she always sort of works through. Have you talked to Gregory Payne?

SM (24:54):
Who?

JF (24:55):
In Emerson University. He is the one that sort of got it together the first time and she sort of uses him as a sounding board.

SM (25:03):
What is his name?

JF (25:04):
Dr. Gregory Payne. P-A-Y-N-E.

SM (25:09):
Okay.

JF (25:09):
And he showed up at Kenny. He looked like-

SM (25:12):
Oh, he said the fitting blonde hair.

JF (25:12):
Yeah.

SM (25:17):
Yeah. Well see, when I saw her, she gave me her email and I emailed her. She wanted my pictures and then she said, "I will probably do the interview." And then I sent the pictures and she would not even respond if she got the pictures. So I do not know.

JF (25:29):
I do not know what is going on.

SM (25:33):
Yeah, but anyways. Well that is it.

JF (25:34):
Okay.

SM (25:35):
Thank you.

JF (25:37):
So if there is any more questions, just call me back or let me know.

SM (25:39):
Will do. Well, I interviewed Alan, when he was on our campus many years ago, but I got to, I have never really finished my interview with him. So I might interview him. I would like to interview his sister, Chick.

JF (25:50):
Yeah. Oh, Chick is great too.

SM (25:50):
Yeah. But Mr. [inaudible], I am going to call you John.

JF (25:55):
Yeah.

SM (25:55):
Thank you very much. That picture was a very important part of my life. And I know you have probably heard that from a lot of people, but that picture touched the lives of college students that you do not even know and you will never know. So you need to know how important that picture was in my life because I went into higher education as a career because of what was happening at Kent State and other universities. So thank you for being the great photographer that you are. And I want to thank you again for the time you spent today answering my questions. I am meeting with a professor, up in [inaudible] college, to be able to help me with the transcribing of all these. So you will sort see the transcription before it is ever going to print.

JF (26:39):
Okay. But you saying on a different day I might have different answers too. It just seems like, as I get older, I am affected by what is going on around you now. You know what I mean?

SM (26:48):
Yeah. Well that whole thing of the (19)60s and (19)70s always affected my life.

JF (26:53):
Oh, yeah.

SM (26:54):
Well to the day I go to my grave.

JF (26:58):
Throw up. I mean, you actually questioned us already. I can imagine growing up in the (19)50s and...

SM (27:00):
Oh, yes.

JF (27:03):
I am sorry. I am not saying that was a bad time to grow up, but it was just, there was so much that was just accepted.

SM (27:08):
Yep. Yet during that very same period, our parents loved us so much.

JF (27:14):
Great.

SM (27:14):
And they wanted to give us so much. And sometimes I go back and say, "Geez, those were, not knowing what was going on in the world and being innocent as an elementary school kid." Probably like you were.

JF (27:27):
Yeah.

SM (27:27):
You had great memories being with your parents. So anyways. Well you have a great day.

JF (27:34):
All right Scott. And call back me anytime you got any other-

SM (27:36):
Steve.

JF (27:37):
If I failed to answer them.

SM (27:38):
Yep.

JF (27:39):
Okay.

SM (27:40):
Thanks a lot. Bye.

JF (27:42):
Take care. Bye. Good luck.

SM (27:42):
Yep, thanks.

(End of Interview)

ND

Stephen McKiernan

John Filo

27:48

English

Binghamton University Libraries

audio/mp4

Sound

Audio

Photographers; Kent State Shootings, Kent, Ohio, 1970; Awards—United States; Filo, John--Interviews

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