Interview with Judith Campbell

Campbell, Judith ; McKiernan, Stephen

Judith Campbell is a sister of a Vietnam Veteran who died in the war. She is linked to the group of families of the Vietnam veterans whose names are inscribed on the wall. Campbell is an active participant in The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (VVMF) ceremonies and programs, as well as a strong supporter of the Education Center at The Wall. Judy C. Campbell lives in Wilmington, Delaware, and works on behalf of Gold Star Families everywhere.

2007-07-15/17

In copyright

2017-03-14

McKiernan Interviews

113:55

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Judy Campbell
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 7 July 2007
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(Start of Interview)

SM (00:00:09):
Okay, thank you very much for doing the interview. First question I would like to ask is, when you think of the (19)60s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? When you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s... And again, the (19)60s and early (19)70s, that period up to about 1973 is still considered part of the (19)60s, a lot of people in the history books consider that. But what comes to your mind when you think of that era?

JC (00:00:45):
Well, when I think of the (19)60s, I immediately think of Vietnam. It was a teenager during that time and the evening news was, "Vietnam-Vietnam-Vietnam-Vietnam." And friends, and loved ones, and family members went to Vietnam, so the first thing I think of is Vietnam when I think of the (19)60s. I know there has been a lot of emphasis on the Vietnam era, the Woodstock era, and the hippies and everything, but to me, I think that was really a small minority of people, it was just that they were in the press. I mean, there was a large majority of people who were not involved in that, but I think there was an unfair assessment that was the typical person growing up in the (19)60s, was a hippie that went to Woodstock, the love generation kind of thing.

SM (00:01:59):
Was there one experience for you that set up, the (19)60s began for me, your personal experience? And also, when did you know that period was over based on a personal experience in your life?

JC (00:02:18):
For me, the (19)60s began in (19)67. As I said earlier, I was just a teenager, I was a kid, I was wrapped up in my school life, my friends. But in (19)67 my brother left for Vietnam, and I remember vividly standing outside the circle of Washington National Airport now Raegan Airport. And it was beautiful January sunny day, we did not even have coats on it was so beautiful. And I took my brother to the airport, and we stood outside the circle, he had on his Green Beret uniform, and he would not let me go into the airport with him. He embraced me, patted me on my fanny, and told me three things which I will never forget. One was, "I am doing this to keep you free. Men with wives and babies should not have to go. My medic skills are needed." And then he turned and he went into the airport, and that was the last time I saw him tragically, 19 days later he was killed. Interestingly enough, my husband and I recently took a trip back to Washington and we went to go to that very spot, as my husband never knew my brother. However, over the years, Richard has often said to me he knows him through me, but based upon the timeframe of when my brother left, Richard said, "I probably checked him in." Because Richard was working at United Airlines at the ticket counter. So we went back to the airport, and it was really funny because the airport's totally different. And we went to the ticket counter, we were hesitating to go to the ticket counter to speak to these ticket agents at their line behind the counter. And we looked at one another and we said, "They are so young, they are not even going to know what we are talking about." Well, a police officer who was very young as well saw us, and came up to us, and evidently they must train the police officers who work at National Airport about the history of the airport, because we told him specifically the spot we were looking for and he directed us to it. And we told him a reason and everything, and he was very gracious. We went to the very spot, and we were able to stand in the spot where I last saw Keith, and wanted to walk through the door that he had walked through, which is now boarded up. The construction crew were working on the door, and they said, "Sorry lady, we just boarded this up. We cannot take the board down, but it is a good thing you came when you did because it is going to be concrete pretty soon, and you are not even going to see the board." So we were able to stand in the doorway per se, with a board behind us, at the exact space where my brother walked through. And the ticket counter is now a storage closet, and the gentleman allowed us a tour of the storage closet. So we went down memory lane, it was a nice venture. But to answer your question about... That was the biggest thing to me, because it was such a rude awakening to me to get out of my own little world, teenager, school, friends. I had a rude awakening to what life was really all about.

SM (00:05:42):
When did it end?

JC (00:05:49):
I do not think there is an ending, I think the boomers of the (19)60s' generation have a tremendous impact on the youth today. There seems to be a perception even in the workforce, that there is not always the respect there for the boomers, but there is a two-sided story there. You tend sometimes to have the younger generation think, my education, my knowledge, I may be your boss someday, which sometimes often is very much the case. Your boss is much younger than you are, and sometimes the age of your own children. And then boomers sometimes tend to have that attitude, "Hey, look, I have been here longer than you have. I have climbed the ropes." And there is a lot of truth to be said for both, but there needs to be a respect between the two. And I think with my generation, I really felt that there was more family time. I have a friend of mine who runs a daycare center, she was having the worst time getting the children to sit down for lunch, she could not figure out why she could not control these children to sit down for lunch. So she finally sent a survey home to the parents about, "What time do you have dinner? Where do you eat dinner?" And 99 percent of the responses came back, "Hey, I do not get home from work till 7, 7:30 at night, the kid is almost ready for bed." Bottom line was the children do not have that family time, that quality time, sitting down and eating meals together. Whereas I think there is a lot to be said for the generation where I grew up, it was very important, family time. I mean, my mother was a single parent with four children and worked three jobs, but there were certain routines in our family that she never allowed to not take place. i.e. Sunday night was always popcorn night, The Ed Sullivan Show, and curling up with mom, and time together. And I do not think there is enough of that anymore, I think the younger generation today raising their own children can really learn a lot from us. And our generation as well, we were children of parents from the depression, and our parents wanted to provide for us the things that they did not have. And we were financially, that timeframe in our country, economy wise, I think probably in one of the best shapes we were ever in. And I think the youth today need to understand that it is important for them not to live on credit, but to strive to work to own something, be it their own home, or car, or just to learn the value of money, and not this perception that things should just be handed to them. And I would even go a step further with that, with our freedoms. I think there is just a perception by so many people sadly, that we just assume we can get up in the morning, and go to work, and go to the gym, and go do our extracurricular activities, and not think about anything else. And I am reflecting on a conversation I had with a Gold Star Mother just earlier today, because she had written a letter to the editor, and I was calling her on a different matter. But recently she had a letter to the editor about we are having some warm weather here lately, in the (19)90s, which is a little unseasonably hot for us. And she was saying, "People are complaining about being in this hot weather." She said, "Think about our men and women overseas carrying all their gear and it is 130 degrees." I just think there is a lot... Now that we are in a war again, there is a lot that people do not appreciate and value. And one of the main things that I think they should really appreciate the value of is our freedom. They affectionately call me at work flag lady, because I keep them straight on the flag etiquette issues. And they affectionately call me that, but they also know why I am a flag lady, because it is not a piece of cloth.

SM (00:10:42):
A very good thought. So what are your thoughts on the boomer generation? And again, when we define the boomer generation, some people will say it's individuals that were born between 1943 and 1961, and then others will say it's those individuals born between (19)46 and (19)64, but basically in that basic timeframe. There has been a lot of criticism by critics like George Will, and Newt Gingrich, and others complaining that the boomer generation is really a lot of the ills of our current society today, we can blame right on that generation, their lifestyles, the way they lived, all the characteristics, their activism, and so forth. What are your thoughts on those individuals who criticize the boomer generation for creating the problems we have in our society, and what are the problems? Again, defining the issues on drugs in our society, the issue of broken families, divorce rates being higher than they have ever been, just the overall characteristics of some of the ills of our society today, and blaming it on the generation.

JC (00:12:11):
I actually think that that is a real misconception, because I think as I said earlier, the percentage of people who did the drugs, and the love movement, and the hippie movement, and all that, were a minority. And I think it is a very unfair assessment to say that the boomer generation was creative of all these negative things. I do not know if it was, because that generation, there was so much. If you look back at film clips from the (19)60s and (19)70s in the news, you will see so much about Woodstock, and the drugs, and the hippies. And I think even my own children probably thought I drove around in a VW bus with peace symbols on it, that was not true. I think it really... Maybe it is a media to blame, I do not know. But there was just too much emphasis put on that, and I really think it was maybe 5 percent of the people were in that category. Actually, I think it's unfair and unjust to say that, because the boomers I know turned out to be very productive citizens who have good jobs, work hard to provide for their families, and are successful contributing citizens. So, I just do not fall into that acceptance of that.

SM (00:13:44):
When you think of...

JC (00:13:44):
When you think of specific individuals, as you mentioned, I think that was a small percentage of people, I truly do. And I just think people tend to sometimes... You want to look at the glass half full or half empty, I am the type of individual that wants to look at it half full. And I think a lot of people then when they're looking at this, are looking at the negative and the half empty glass, and pulling into these individuals. I really do not think that they have the impact that people tend to say that they do.

SM (00:14:19):
It is interesting because this is 2007, and all you are hearing about in some of the higher education materials is the Summer of Love of 1967, which this is 40 years ago.

JC (00:14:30):
And you are still hearing that.

SM (00:14:31):
Yeah, you are still hearing it now, anybody who was in the Bay Area knows that was big. That was big, the Summer of Love, and the music and everything, so there is definitely an impact here. But how many people were actually part of the Summer of Love when you really think about it within the...

JC (00:14:59):
Geographically, you could not have even gotten all those people in Woodstock if you tried.

SM (00:15:01):
Right. Yeah, they were kind of happenings for the people that were there and all. But if you look at the boomer generation now, and again, when someone who might counter what you just said in terms of, "Well, the boomers were 70 million strong, and maybe 15 percent were involved in activism and involved in some of the activities, anti-war movement, civil rights, women's movement and so forth." And some of the interviews I have had come up with that 15 percent as well. But the 85 percent who were not involved were subconsciously affected by this. So, when you look at the bloomer generation as a generation, what are the positive qualities that you see in this generation, and what are some of the negative qualities that you have perceive?

JC (00:15:52):
Well, I would say some of the positive qualities were there was more family time, more openness and communication. And maybe that is why somebody can come back and say all this hippie stuff, whatever, but that was their way of expressing the openness and the feeling of freedom. There was more openness and honesty, and even if there was an era of disagreement, there was a respect with that disagreement, and an acceptance of difference of opinion and values. I would say the least admired, who were rebellious, and tended to lead the forefront for generations. I keep emphasizing that, I do not really think that there were that many of them, I just think there was more emphasis put on them. But I really think our generation had more values, and I think one of the downfalls for some of the values is when they took prayer out of school, I really believe that. I mean, heaven forbid if they ever say, "In God we trust, take that off of our money." I mean, what is next? I mean, when I said there was more openness, I mean, I have friends and still do who were of many different religious persuasions, and they are respecting of my own religion, I am respecting them theirs. But when I was in school, it was a common practice to open the day with prayer, Pledge of Allegiance. And I vividly remember Mrs. Brown, my sixth grade teacher, having the Bible on her desk. I mean, you would never see that today. I remember recently attending a luncheon and there was a veteran there, and we were commenting on the patriotism, " When did you learn how to fold a flag?" We were talking about that. And he said, "I never learned how to fold a flag until I was in the military." And my husband would always ask me, "Where did you learn to fold the flag?" And I said, "In school." In elementary school when we got to school, we stood around the flag pole, we raised the flag, and at the end of the school day we went outside and we sang the song, Day is Done, Gone the Sun, and we dropped the flag down and we folded it. I have been in different buildings, there was a gym that we used to belong to, and they raised the flag every morning. And the gentleman had not raised the flag, and I watched him go to get the flag, and it was in one of those postal plastic mail bins just thrown in there. It just got under my skin to think when they took the flag down at the end of the day, they just balled it up and threw it in there. And then one day I was on the exercise equipment at the gym, and I hopped off, I went running over to the guy at the counter, and he said, "What's wrong?" And I said, "My goodness. Find whoever's responsible for the flag and get it corrected immediately." They had it hanging upside down. And he said, "What does that mean?" And everybody saw all this commotion, and saw how upset I was, and they came running over, and I said, "The flag is upside down." "Well, what does that mean?" I am saying to myself, "You are a veteran." I mean, these are mature people who do not know common things like flag etiquette. I mean, if a flag is upside down it means you are in distress. I mean, that is a very serious situation, especially now we are in a war on terrorism.

SM (00:19:57):
During that timeframe, if you remember, some flag was burned at times.

JC (00:20:03):
Oh, my goodness, nothing gets under my skin more than that. And I think that, again, is something that we need to stress to the new generation. When you talk about the flag, and that that happened, that was despicable. When you talk about things in that area that would get under my skin, that would be that. I had friends after my brother was killed who would come into our home, and say months after he was dead, "I cannot come into your house, it is like a shrine." I said, "What do you mean it is like a shrine? We have not changed anything." His picture was on the mantle. I said, "Do you think we are going to take his picture off the mantle because he is dead?" There is an expression, and I am not going to quote it correctly, you may know what it is, it is something to the effect, "You are not dead until you are forgotten." To me, that is the worst thing that we can do, is to forget. So the current generation can learn from us, and could learn from the Vietnam era. And they are building the center down in Washington to help educate the youth of tomorrow, which is vital, and very important for the continuation of our history because we can learn. Yes, a lot of people get upset about the Vietnam War, it can be a very controversial war. I have several coats, and jackets, and things that have been presented to me over the years that I treasure, and some of them have patches on them. And one has a patch on it, "If we lost the war in Vietnam, we would be speaking Vietnamese." I have had friends say to me, "My gosh, why do you keep talking about your brother and everything. The war is over, it is dead. We have lost that war, blah-blah-blah-blah-blah." And I am like, "The worst thing you can ever say to me is that his life was a loss." I hear that and I cringe, almost as much as somebody burning the flag. I cannot go to the Vietnam Memorial wall and look at over 58,000 plus names and say, "That is a loss." It is not a waste, it is not a loss, those are men and women who sacrificed the ultimate, that war was not lost on the battlefield. I am not into politics, I do not care to be into politics, I am thankful that I have the freedom to vote for politicians, and I hopefully pray and trust that democracy will continue to lead us in the road to continue to have the freedoms to express. I will leave the politics up to the politicians, but I will defend and perpetuate the memory of my brother and his brothers as long as there is breath in me. And I think that it is our duty to do that for the citizens today.

SM (00:23:10):
I am in a hundred percent agreement with everything you are saying here, one thing that really upsets me in a similar vein is you cannot even talk about Vietnam today. I work on a university campus.

JC (00:23:23):
Now I agree with you, I think that bothers me a lot too.

SM (00:23:26):
And I work on a university campus, and I go down to the Vietnam Memorial, I put the pictures up in the glass case. I put it up only because it is an educational tool. Every time I go to the Vietnam Memorial on Memorial Day or Veterans Day, I put the pictures up two weeks later after they are developed. I put them in the glass case. I show the pictures, and it is as an education tool, I have been doing that for 15 years. And when we brought The Wall That Heals to our campus, and we had speakers back in 2000, 2001, I keep hearing amongst fellow boomers that this is a new generation, they had different issues. "Just remember, Steve, when you were young, were you talking about World War II?" It upsets me, because I think we have to really make sure that history is never forgotten. And what is interesting is, if students do not know it, then it is our responsibility to be educators too. We have to be educators here, we all have to be educators. And so, what you are talking about, about your brother, is your brother can never be forgotten, that he did give the ultimate price. Those 58,000 names... When I go down to Washington now, I always go to the Vietnam Memorial first, it is my generation, but I am also going to where my dad served in World War II, who did not live long enough to see that wall. So, I go there and I go to the Pacific War section, and I take my dad down, and I take my dad's picture, and he is with me. And I go over to the Pacific and my dad is there, and so it is about serving your country, it's about giving the ultimate. And that is why Vietnam vets, you always say welcome home to them. I do not care who they are, where they are, I welcome them home. Even though no one said it to them in 30 years, I am going to say it to them.

JC (00:25:46):
We were up in Upper Darby, Pennsylvania, and we were at a store, friend of ours has a store there. And this gentleman had come in the store, and he had on a Vietnam cap. And we were talking, and then we left about the same time, and I was parked on the side of the street, and he was walking across the street. And as he left to go across the street, I said, "Thank you for serving." He got to the island of the street, he turned around and he came back, and he got right in my face, and he said, "What did you say?" And I got a little skittish. I mean, here I am on the street alone in Upper Darby, with this man in my face. And I said, "Thank you for serving." And he said, "Nobody has ever said that to me." So, I echo your sentiments, that it is our responsibility to show the example that we are to thank our veterans of all wars, of Korea, of World War II, Granada. I mean, there are a number of conflicts that people have forgotten about, Beirut. There's all kinds of conflicts that people tend to forget about. When people talk about the Vietnam War, and a negative concept that they have of that timeframe of life. Forget it, get over it. I have something that I always give back to them, and I share this with Vietnam veterans. And there is one Vietnam veteran who is very dear to our... They are all dear to our hearts. But I remember being at a reunion in Rochester, Minnesota, and I remember vividly being in the Fellowship Room hospitality suite, and this veteran who resembles the country western singer... Oh, what is his name?

SM (00:27:43):
Current? Willie Nelson?

JC (00:27:46):
Willie Nelson. Actually, without having this man's permission to use his name, I will not use his name, but he knows who I am talking about. I call him Willie, because he is the spitting image of him, he could be his twin. We went in deep conversation, this group at our table, about PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, which a number of youth today do not even know what that means. And I looked at him and I said to him, "Do you remember the best things that ever happened to you in your life? You have got your college degree, you got married, you have had your children, in whatever order." We all start laughing. I said, "Think about the most positive things that have ever happened to you in your life. Have you forgotten them? Of course not, so how in the world can anybody expect you to forget the most difficult, the most painful, the most challenging times that have happened to you in your life? You cannot forget it, it is what molds you, and shapes you, and makes you who you are. And for people to tell people, forget it, it's passed, it is just not possible, you cannot do that." I was talking to Gold Star Mother, [inaudible].

JC (00:29:02):
Yeah. I talked... Was talking to a Gold Star mother, several Gold Star mothers this morning. And one lost her son in Iraq in December of last year. And she told me she does not go out of the house. Now is not that awful? And we are going to work on that. We are going to change that. And these are the kind of things that the generation today. With this current war, you have some men that are being deployed five, six times. Who is cutting the grass? Who is fixing the broken garbage disposal? Who is helping with the leaky roof? We need to be banding together to help these families. And I think this is the thing that we can learn so much from the Vietnam Era, and the Vietnam veterans are doing that. They never want the veterans today to be treated in the manner in which they were. I think another area that is very sensitive but strongly needs to be addressed. Very strongly I believe. And this is our churches. Our very churches who profess love and forgiveness have slammed the door, many of them, on our veterans. I have spoken to a Vietnam veteran who... well, I did not personally speak to him, but I know someone that did. And I value this person's words, so I know it is true. This Vietnam veteran came back from Vietnam, bought a motorcycle in California, drove to Indiana to see his mother. It was Easter Sunday morning. Obviously he was very dirty and grubby. He had just driven across country. And the deacon stopped him as he is going into the church and said, "You cannot go in there looking like that." And he said, "You do not understand. I just came back from Vietnam. It's Easter Sunday. My mother's in there. She does not even know I am home." And the deacon said, "You do not understand. You cannot go in there looking like that." Well, I will give to this generation this. No, I do not agree in today's attire. If that would happen today. The way kids dress today.

SM (00:31:04):
I know it.

JC (00:31:04):
He would be welcome church I am part of. I wear blue jeans to church now. But there is... We have to have this ability to embrace one another and accept one another. And I think too back in the era when I grew up. There was a lot of unjust things done to African Americans. I never understood that and I still do not. Because when I grew up. I grew up in Arlington, Virginia. And I went to Washington Lee High School. To the same high school Sandra Bullock went to. The brother and sister. I cannot think of their names. Warren Beatty. Shirley McClain.

SM (00:31:53):
Oh, wow.

JC (00:31:56):
Of course I graduated much after their time. Much.

SM (00:31:59):
Yeah.

JC (00:31:59):
They graduated way before me. But anyway. I used to walk home from high school and there was a development near us called Halls Hill. Only African-Americans lived there. Only whites lived where we lived. But my girlfriend and I, Kathy Clark, we would walk home together. We would walk through my development first. I would go home and she would walk on her merry way. Kathy to me was not black, African American, whatever. Even today, if I get an application in a store or a survey or whatever. They will have the question on there. What your race is.

SM (00:32:41):
Yeah.

JC (00:32:45):
I always cross it out and I go, "Why does this matter?" And I will put, "There is one color and it is red. It is blood red." And that is the way I was raised. I have never understood this black and white issue because it is not the way I was raised. Now our daughter, when she was in college. Consequently, our children were not raised that way. She went to college in the south. She had a job off campus and she called me. Waitressing. And she called me. She said, "Oh mom, you would not believe this." She is 32 years old, so this is not that long ago. She said, "You would not believe it. We are having lunch break. And the blacks are sitting on one side of the room and the whites are on the other. So my friend who I really talk with them all the time is over with the blacks. So I walk over there to sit with them. And they say, 'You want to sit here?'" She said, "Well, why would not I want to sit here?" Now this is still going on today. This is despicable.

SM (00:33:53):
Yeah. This is a big issue. Again, in higher ed. Because of the fact that... If Dr. King were alive today. Always say if Dr. King were alive. But it was all about integration. And now we have the decision of self-segregation. And to me, it's shocking. And the Boomers who went through this era of the Civil Rights Movement and all the things that happened. And again, a lot of the young people of color and people who were not of color who did not experience this when they were young do not know what it was like. And I do not know what the parents have done to educate their kids. It gets into a question then. When you were young and a lot of people I was around felt that era, the (19)60s, early (19)70s, was a time when as a young people we could change the world.

JC (00:34:52):
Oh, yeah.

SM (00:34:54):
We were going to be the most. And there was this feeling. It's almost an arrogance. But at that time, it was just a feeling, I do not even know if we thought about arrogance. But a feeling that we are the most unique generation in American history. And we are going to end racism, we are going to end sexism, we are going to end... We are going to have peace in the world. We are going to do all things. Your thoughts on that kind of an attitude that was held by a lot of people in the Boomer generation. And just your thoughts on... Thank you. They were the unique generation. Looking at it from when you were young and looking at it today.

JC (00:35:33):
You know I agree. We were a unique generation. And I think it was the values and the principles that we were raised with, and we are willing to stand behind those values and principles.

SM (00:35:53):
What are the values? When you mention the values and the principles. What are the values and the principles again that you felt that...

JC (00:35:58):
Respect. There was no way I would go over to a friend's house and... Say the mother's name is Diane Smith. There would be no way I would say, "Hey, Diane. How are you today?" It would be, "Hi, Mrs. Smith. How are you today?" And we had chores we had to do. Again, as I told you my mother was a single parent with four kids. And we had a bulletin board going down the steps. And we each had our list of chores. And you better bet your sweet bippy those chores better be done, or you were not going to have any extracurricular activities. Be it to the football game or going out for hamburgers on Saturday. My mother always took me out for hamburgers and milkshake on Saturday. I do not recommend doing that today. You have got to spend in another way for that today. But they are... I think today's generation and the... I look at the youth in my office. I do not know when they have time to spend with their children. I am fortunate. I have a very brief commute to work. But some of these people have... Are on the road 45 minutes, hour, two hours a day just to get to work. How can you really have quality time with your children when you get home? I do not know how they do it. And then again, I think... I get back to the values of not living on credit. I look at some of these kids in my office today and hear where they live and go, "My goodness. How can you afford to live there? How can you afford those taxes?" And they keep wanting more and more and bigger and bigger. Some girl in my office working on... She and her husband are working on fixing up their house. And I said, "Oh, that is wonderful. You are doing all this work around the house." Oh, yeah. We are selling it. Buy bigger and bigger. They want bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And how are they paying for this? I think they can learn from... Our generation, as I said earlier, had the parents from The Depression. And there was almost an extreme there because they had nothing.

SM (00:38:06):
Right.

JC (00:38:15):
And then they want to provide for us and give us. They need to learn the values of saving a buck. Having respect for their elders. How many times I have been at work carrying a... They are not necessarily work, but some of. Because I do have a wonderful office. I do not want to give that perception. But I am sitting there loaded with grocery packages or whatever. And this 25-year-old to 30-year-old kid walks out the door and left the door kicking in the face while you are standing there struggling. And I am like... I come home and I... Next time I talk to my son, he is 34, I give him the big lecture. "Mother, what are you giving the big lecture for? I did not slam the door in your face." My point is you see a lady carrying groceries, you open the door for her. Now it is amazing to me that one time I said thank you to a gentleman for doing that. And he said to me. I could not believe it. It was at the post office. This was just a couple years ago. And he said to me, "Well, I hesitated doing that." And I said, "Well, why did you hesitate doing that?" And he said, "Because one time I did that and the woman [inaudible]." I got to pay this eventually. He just kept... And now they have the soda machines with the... We were out a couple weeks ago with our kids and we walked by a soda machine. And my son said, "Oh, you want to bottle of water?" I said, "Sure." I started to go in my purse to get out of dollar bill or whatever it was. He said, "Oh no, mom. I will get it." And he gets out a credit card. Flashes it in front of the screen and goes.

SM (00:39:53):
Yeah.

JC (00:39:53):
And I said, "I do not understand. Why did you do that? Why do not you use money?" He said, "Nobody carries money anymore."

SM (00:39:53):
Yeah.

JC (00:39:53):
And I said, "Well, does this mean then that you are managing money well? Because you can keep track of even every dollar you spend for every bottle of water or soda you buy?"

SM (00:39:53):
And what was his answer?

JC (00:39:53):
Yeah. He said, "I can." That is okay. He has got two kids.

SM (00:40:19):
Getting back to this. We talked about the percentage of people involved in activism. I want to ask you about your thoughts on activism as a whole. Activism is defined as... Who defines it? A history professor said this to me yesterday. He says, "Whose definition is this?" And I said, "Well, [inaudible] would say that activism is basically individuals who want to make a difference in this world." People who want to make a difference in the world is to me what the definition of activism is. But there seems to be a... In higher education today, a fear of activism. And looking at activism as a negative activism. Because they kept perceptions of what it was in the past. They think of the (19)60s. They think of disruption. They think of shutting things down. They think of nothing but negative. What is your thought on... When you think of the anti- war movement, how important were the young people of the Boomer generation in ending the war in Vietnam and basically their involvement? What are your thoughts on their involvement in the anti-war movement? Knowing that your brother served and died, yet there were young people that were out there protesting that war. The anti-war movement itself. Your thoughts on those individuals. I have had some conversations with people down at the wall. Some other mothers who have lost their...

JC (00:41:38):
I even watched recently more protests going on in our area. Off of two and two. And I... It is very emotional to me when I see people protesting war. And I just want to go up to them and really get involved. And I know that I should not act on emotion, so I do not do it. I tend to be a very emotional person anyway. I look at it as... Because of men like my brother. Because of men and women that are on that wall in Vietnam. The Vietnam Memorial Wall. And the men and women that died in Iraq. Because of what they did for our freedom and our democracy. It is all for them and afforded these people the right to protest. I do not agree with them. With the current war, nobody wants war. I do not know what the answer is with this war. I just heard today, 10 more Americans were killed. I find sometimes I cannot watch the news anymore. And I know that is narrow minded. Putting on blinders that way, going to that extreme. It is a reality that we are in. I read something one time, and... I read that the dreams we shared as a family, referring to when my brother was killed. The dreams we shared as a family were changed forever on that fateful day. But as the years progressed and grief lifted its ugly veil, I found continued healing. A belief that he is watching every step that I make and [inaudible]. It has not been easy along this journey, and oftentimes it's very painful. But just as my mother taught us, if you believe in something give it your all and always remember to do good for others. [inaudible]. But what really counts in man's heart is the ability to have freedom to express that heart. Your life, the life of my brother, [inaudible]. You will always be missed and we will never forget you. [inaudible]

SM (00:44:11):
Here we go. It is back. The batteries were getting low. I could tell.

JC (00:44:16):
Getting back to what I was saying. Their activism tends to have a negative connotation I think. When people think of activism, they think of... I think most people probably get a negative conception of what the word means. But I tend to agree with you. Activism is giving your all to something that you believe in. And I have an incredible tenacity about me to do that. If I believe in something, I do not care how bad somebody stomps on me or hurts me. And believe me, it has happened. If I still believe in something strongly, I will continue to pursue it with my all. That is the way I was raised. That is the way my brother was raised. That is why my brother did what he did. He heroically... He was an American hero. First of all, he had his honorable discharge. He had already seen combat duty during the Dominican Republic crisis. He served with the 82nd Airborne Division. 11th Special Forces. He had his honorable discharge. He had no reason to even go back into the military. But he too was raised with strong values and principles that one person can make a difference. They believe in something and they know it is right. Give it your all. And that is what he did. He reenlisted because he was a good medic. One of the best. And we have heard this over and over and over. They recently renamed the Fort Sam Houston Library in his memory. It is now the Keith A. Campbell Memorial Library. At the library dedication. After the dedication, we were all at dinner. Keith Sergeant from the 11th Special Forces shared a story about us that we had never heard. And that was when they were out on maneuvers. And Bob had walked into a tree branch. And if it had not been for Keith's medical treatment on site, Bob would have probably lost his eye. Now mind you, he was a teenager. I look at my own children and go, "Can my kids do that?" So, this kid was a phenomenal medic. He was not the kind of kid who liked going to school. Do not give him a clock and say, "What makes it... Do an essay on what makes it tick." He would be taking it apart and putting it back together to figure out what makes it tick. He was a real hands on person. And everything he learned, he learned the hard way and he did a dad gum good job. So, when he went off to Vietnam to save lives, he did do exactly that. And I feel very blessed that I have met two of the men that he died saving. How many people are that fortunate? To me those...

SM (00:47:17):
Those people. Did he save them in Vietnam?

JC (00:47:20):
Yes.

SM (00:47:20):
Wow.

JC (00:47:22):
Yes. One gentleman. Keith's body laid on him for five hours. There was a firefight. A very bad firefight that came up overnight. They were actually in the planning stages for Operation Junction City. And lo and behold, they had to put everything on a screeching halt for Operation Junction City because here comes Operation Big Springs. You will find very little on Operation Big Springs. Very little. Which is very interesting. But all of the medics were down with this one company. And Keith and his buddy Ken were with another company and heard it over the radio. Keith left the safety of his perimeter to go. And as he started to go, Ken pulled him down and said, "Do not go. Whoever goes is not going to come back." And Keith pushed him down and said, "I am going. You have a wife and a baby." Now remember what he told me before he left Vietnam? One of the things? Men with wives and babies should not have to go. Ken literally told me that Keith save his life by doing that. Keith crawled through a hail of grenades and bullets. Now mind you, this is just three days after getting the Bronze Star for another battle. He was not stopped in 19 days. I do not know when that kid slept. I look at the geographic location of these different battles he was in, because I have been really doing a lot of research since (19)99. I cannot believe the adrenaline that kid must have had or how he ever got done what he did. I just do not know. I have talked to veterans that would tell me... It is funny. I do not even know why I was thinking about that this morning because I guess I was talking. These conversations I had with all these Gold Star mothers that is reflected. Brought a lot of stuff back to me. But I was thinking this morning about how these men did not sleep when they were over there. And one told me. All the monsoons and the rain they had, but they had ponchos. But he never took his poncho out because it would rattle and make noise. Think about a man over there who probably was a snorer. He would probably be afraid to have fallen asleep.

SM (00:49:47):
Oh, yeah.

JC (00:49:47):
So these men were in jungle with you name what. And he was just nonstop. But anyway.

(00:49:56):
Keith picked up a rifle of another man that was killed along the way. Took that with him. Shot a sniper in the tree. I have the original article from The Evening.

SM (00:50:13):
Okay.

JC (00:50:14):
There used to be two newspapers in Washington DC. The Washington Post and the Evening Sun.

SM (00:50:18):
Star.

JC (00:50:19):
Star. My mother always... Despite the hardships of being a single parent with four kids, she managed to subscribe to both of the newspapers. Because she always told us, "There are always going to be many sides to a story. You need to read them all." And you would. You would see the same story on the news. And you would read The Post and you would read The Star and you could hear three different things of the same thing. But anyway, I have the original newspaper article that said there was a sniper killed in the tree. One Viet Cong killed. Da-da-da-da. And then I knew that was the Viet Cong that Keith had killed. I had mixed emotions about that too because did not that young man have a mother?

SM (00:50:59):
Right.

JC (00:51:00):
But anyway. Keith reached Eddie Taurus. Drug him to a nearby... Gave him enough medical aid to stop his bleeding and then drug him to a nearby tree where he literally... Because there were more snipers. The guys used to... Snipers used to tie themselves in the trees. He knew there was not enough coverage for the sniper in the tree. That up in the tree. In the tree where Keith had drug Eddie to for that tree to protect him. So Keith used his body for the other portion of Eddie to protect him. And in doing so, he got shot and he fell on Eddie. And it took them another five hours to pull the two of them out of there. Now I was blessed to meet Eddie back in (19)99. Flew out to California to meet him for the first time. Had a wonderful, warm... You can only imagine. Incredible meeting. But the whole weekend if he were facing me, he just clammed up. He could not look at me. He could not talk. And I did not get it. I could not understand it. It was the house. The owner of the home where we were staying who brought it to my attention. She said, "You do not get it. He sees your brother in your eyes."

SM (00:52:19):
Oh, wow.

JC (00:52:20):
So, I approached him and I said, "Eddie, we have come this far to find you after all these years. You do not even look at me." And he said, "Vicky's right, you do not get it. Your brother was on me for five hours. I see Campbell. I see you. I cannot look at you."

SM (00:52:38):
Oh, wow.

JC (00:52:42):
And even at the library dedication. As long as I was not looking at him. But I kind of got off the path a little bit, which I tend to do. But to answer your question about what I think about the people who protest and the activism and everything. I think the men and women who died have given them the freedoms to exercise their opinion. And though I may not always agree with them, we should have the opportunity to respectfully disagree. And I am thankful, very thankful, even though I disagree with some of them. Very thankful that they have that opportunity to have the freedom. There was an email exchange going around for a while. And I do not like all this tit for tat email stuff that people send you. And sometimes emails can... You can go to the office and you do emails all day long. I do not want to come home and do them at night. All this nonsensical stuff sometimes that comes around. Do not waste my time with it. If it is more than a paragraph, do not bother sending it to me. But anyway, I got this one email that was interesting to me about what's your favorite color? What is your greatest fear? What is this? And it was interesting to see family members and friends respond to some of these things. One of the questions on there. What is your greatest fear? It was very interesting to see what people said their greatest fear was. My greatest fear is to be sitting at a sidewalk cafe in America, having a cup of cappuccino, and having somebody drive by and throw a bomb. And that is something that has always been a fear of mine. See this is the difference. Even back in (19)67. Even though my mother. My mother was an extraordinary woman in the process of educating us. We understood even back then what communism meant. We understood that there were people on the other side of the world that did not have refrigerators. That if they wanted milk or eggs or perishable items, that they literally were standing in blocks long to get those things. And then they would have to consume them because they did not have a refrigerator to put it in. We knew that there were people who lived on the other side of the world that could not go into a church or a synagogue or whatever of their choice. We were raised with that. In other words, the values we were raised with were so strong. That our freedom and our democracy is such a gift. It was so instilled into us. That is why Keith did what he did. And that is why I continue to perpetuate his memory. Not only because he was an American hero, which he really was. A true hero. I did not even realize what a hero he was until (19)99. It is because I call it grief lifting its ugly veil. I related very much to this mother today who said she did not go out of the house. I went out of the house because I had to. And I was a sibling. I was not a mother. A Gold Star mother. I was merely a sibling. Then I talked to another mother this morning who told me her 42-year-old daughter will not talk about it. Her son that died. And I explained to her. I understand that. That is the way I was until (19)99. And I called it grief lifting its ugly veil. And I went through all my brother's memorabilia at that time. And then that is when I realized what he really had done. Oh my gosh, this man was a hero. And he would never want to tell you. He would be... He would be sitting here right now saying, "Judy, get off it." And the majority of the men that I know that went over there feel the same way. Point being, he did a job that they were sent to do and they did it with their all. And that is the same for the men and women today. And a lot of these kids today go to the workplace who... We had the draft back then. People are not understanding. These people that are over there today enlisted.

SM (00:57:21):
Right.

JC (00:57:22):
What a sacrifice. They know what they are getting into. Maybe some of the National Guard did not know they were going to have five or six tours.

SM (00:57:31):
What you are really talking about here is... Considering the next question I have is about healing. One of the things. One of the most... Two or three of the most important questions I have been asking every individual in this interview process. We know that the Vietnam Memorial when it was built in (19)82. We know the purpose. To heal a generation as Janice Brooks' book talks about. But we knew it was about a healing. The Vietnam vets. Healing their families. Paying tribute...

SM (00:58:03):
The Vietnam vets healing their families, paying tribute to those who served people who gave the ultimate price, remembrance. And healing... I am asking a two-part question. How much do you feel that wall has done to heal the Vietnam veterans and the Vietnam generation, which includes the 70 million boomers? It includes the individuals who did not serve. It includes those who were for and against the war. We all know about the unbelievable divisions that took place at that time, as some people have said, historians have said, we came very close to a second civil war in with all the things that were happening with the cities up in flames and dealing with issues here at home. And then the war itself had really divided families, generation gap. Just your thoughts on healing, because you are talking about dealing with your brothers, your loss of your brother. So just your thoughts on the whole healing process where-

JC (00:59:24):
The Vietnam veterans. The Vietnam Memorial Wall, you will have to forgive me for choking up, was the greatest gift that America gave the Vietnam veterans. The Vietnam veterans were treated in despicable manners. Spat on, had to change their uniform when they would come home. I know Vietnam veterans to this day that will not tell you they were a Vietnam veteran for fear of the way that they are going to be treated. That is just incomprehensible to me. Men who, good night, look what they ate, look what they slept. Look what they went through for 12, 13 months, whatever, had their buddies blown up right in front of them. Come home and get told horrible... I have not even had Gold Star mothers tell me that their son deserved to die because he was a baby killer. Now, first of all, were you there to see them kill a baby? I remember one veteran telling me, "I came home and I was on the elevator in the Pittsburgh airport and there was this little old lady who had an umbrella and she turned around and she started waving that umbrella at me. And it was one of those ones with a big point on the end of it and said, you baby killer, you a baby killer." And he said, "You know what, ma'am? I never killed a baby and I never hit an old lady. But if you do not get that umbrella out of my face and quit threatening me, I am going to do it." Where do people get off making these assumptions and treating people in such manners when they themselves were not even there? And this conception of all Vietnam veterans did drugs. They did not do drugs. I know Vietnam veterans today who are successful MDs, successful lawyers, professionals. Yes, it is like anything. You have some people who cannot pull themselves up from the bootstraps and move on with their lives for whatever reason, or try to milk the system and do not want to go to work every day. So, they try to get somebody to pay their way of the rest of their life. That is with anything. Look at car accidents. People do that with car accidents all the time, milk the system with that. But the majority of the Vietnam veterans I know are respected human beings who not only gave to our country then but are continuing to give back to our country today. And the Vietnam Memorial Wall is the only safe haven that they could have to go to where they were not judged, where they could pay their respects to those that they were with. And the thing that is the most painful I think for them though, I cannot walk in their shoes and say, what they feel. I can only imagine because I listen to a lot of them, talk about that survivor guilt. They go to the wall and they often think, look at the reflection and think, "Why is it not me on there? Why am I standing here and you're there?" And it was funny, I have always heard everybody talk about the wall with reflection, reflection, reflection. I am like, I do not get it. I do not see the wall in reflection when I go. And people look at me like, "Huh, how can you not see it?" It is because my go, Keith's name is way up there and I am looking up at a name so I am not looking straight ahead. So, I do not see a reflection. But then I have also heard the wall described as angels’ wings, which I think is beautiful. A beautiful description. So, I think the Vietnam Memorial Wall is the great, again, I reiterate that, the greatest gift our nation has ever given to not only our country for future generations, but specifically to the veterans themselves, were so mistreated. Now for healing for me personally, and again, it can only be spoken on a personal level because I do a lot of work with Gold Star Families because it is really where my heart is. Every time I hear of another family who has joined the Gold Star Family ranks, my heart shatters. It shatters because I know their lives have changed forever. I have been privy to the conversations from some Gold Star Families that I will not repeat the conversations, but I can say was certainty that people have no concept unless they are a Gold Star Family of how traumatic it is, and the worst thing we can do is forget. I remember a friend of mine years ago, her son was six years old and he died of Reye Syndrome, which is taking Aspirin and you have a fever and they do not do that anymore. And it was just up here around the corner at the card store. And I saw her in this card store. It was shortly after her son was killed.

SM (01:05:12):
Died.

JC (01:05:14):
Died, I am sorry. Died. And I [inaudible] my way in and out of the aisles to get my cards and get back out of there. And I come home. It's not a half hour later the phone rings. "Judy, it is Carol Lee. I know you saw me in the card store. Why did not you talk to me?" I said, "Carol Lee, I would tell you I did not know what to say to you." And she said, "You know what the worst thing you can do?" And it was a good thing she was a friend because only a friend can get away with this. She said, "The worst thing you can do is what you did. It is like Kevin never existed. Kevin was my only son. If you do not know what to say to me, simply say, I am praying for your broken heart, which I know you are, but do not act like I do not exist." So that is what I tell people. You see Gold Star Families because I think 90 percent of the time people do avoid people for the very reason that I did. You do not know what to say. You have mixed emotions because you think, "Oh, they are having a good day. If I say something, it is going to make them feel bad." But what people do not understand is we never forget anyway. So, if we are having a good day and you think you are going to bring us down by bringing it up, I got news for you. We will never forget. We were blessed to recently be at our daughter's for the birth of our first grandson. Even my husband does not know this. I am holding this beautiful baby to my breath and loving him and praying he may never see more. That he may grow up in a country of freedom and that he will someday learn through going through the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Center the sacrifices made for him to have the life that he hopefully have. Okay? And then my next breath was, "Keith, why aren't you here to hold him? Why are not you here?" We never forget holidays and Christmas. There is always in our mind's eye, in our heart and at place at that table always. And there always will be. And this is for all of these families. And I would like to encourage people to realize that it's okay to say something because when I talk about this Gold Star Mother today, the only thing she says she does is she goes out in her garden and plays with her flowers and that is it. She does not go any... She send me the invitation again about the luncheon. I lost it. I do want to come. And then she said this to me, "I do not go anywhere by myself." And I said, "Well how is your husband with all of this?" "My husband does not talk about it." And see, this is why it shatters me when I hear about another Gold Star Family, because I know this. It divides families. They not only lose their loved one, but it shatters relationships in walls of the family unit itself. Because the biggest mistake we all make when we lose somebody we love, no matter what the circumstances is. I have done hospice work in the past and this is what I will tell the hospice people, the families. Grieve together. We do not do that. Grief has so many facets to it. You have guilt. You have, why me? Shock. You have all these different emotions with it and you stay so... I remember vividly when Keith died. I mean, so angry with my mother for years over it. I remember laying on the living room sofa, we used to have a picture over the fireplace. It was of a seascape and had a warm wood frame to it and a picture light on it. And that was like the nightlight because our house was the revolving door. Everybody came from campus and back then, you did not have to lock your doors. We never did lock our doors. It was always the revolving door. You never knew when Keith was coming home. You never knew when anybody was coming in the room. But after Keith died, I remember laying on the sofa screaming at the top of my lungs. Now it was a small house, much smaller than this. You cannot tell me my mother did not hear me screaming. Never came downstairs. No, we never grieved together. My sister never grieved together. My sister still has not gotten over it. I have not gotten it over yet. I remember Nancy Reagan recently saying on an interview about President Reagan's death, of course things must be getting better. And she looked right at the reporter and said, "Actually it gets worse." She is absolutely correct. The only thing time does is help with controlling your physical outside emotions. In other words, helping you to get a grip and not be a blubbering idiot in front of people. That is the only thing time does. Healing will never happen in the respect. Totally. Because a piece of you has been taken out and cut out. I had a double mastectomy almost 15 years ago. And I remember going to a counselor about it and before it happened, because that was part of the protocol I was in. I went through Hopkins and they're really top-notch. And that was part of the protocol, you had to do that. This breast cancer surveillance unit program. I went through and I went to the counselor and she said, "Well, I will be perfectly honest with you, I do not know..." Kudos to her because she was honest. She said, "I do not know what to tell you what you are going to expect." She said, "But I do know that from what you told me about your brother, you have experienced loss in your life. And so, I am here to tell you, you are probably going to experience the same thing as you did in the loss of your brother. Why me? Guilt, was it something I ate? Was it where I lived? Disbelief, shock. So that is what happens." And she was absolutely correct. You were telling me about a family member in your life having a health challenge and to a certain level, they too will experience in that way. It is a normal chain of events for all people. And like I said earlier, you do not forget the best things that have ever happened to you in your life. Do not anybody tell me to forget the worst because I cannot. But it is my obligation and responsibility to go about living my life in a positive way so it does not demean and bring other people down. I think if enough of us can do good things by educating, and this is my goal in life, educate every American that they know what a Gold Star is. A Blue Star, a Silver Star. They do not know. Even people in the military do not know.

SM (01:12:59):
See, when I met you in Washington, I mentioned to you and the person who was the national director of the Gold Star Mothers. Yeah. I think it would be fantastic to have a program at a university where Gold Star mothers came in and spoke.

JC (01:13:14):
Absolutely.

SM (01:13:14):
Because you never see that. And obviously we are in another war now, but the mothers who have lost... And there is also, I think it is Mrs. Zaalberg, you may have seen it on the national news. She lost her son in Iraq last year. She goes to the Arlington every day and sits in front of the stone in Section 60. Now she is the only one that does it. Everybody comes every day. And she was on the national news because here it is, the middle of the winter, it is almost like a blizzard out there. And she is sitting in front of... They let her in even in days when they are closed, because she has to be in with her son. That might be a good person to link up with. I forget what channel, I think it was Zaalberg. I have been to Section 60 twice, just there last week, I think her last name was Zaalberg. But obviously to be there every day, 365 days a year is unbelievable.

JC (01:14:15):
That is unbelievable.

SM (01:14:17):
And she is the only one. Everybody else comes there. But I went into the Section 60 there and I saw it is very sad.

JC (01:14:25):
Oh, gosh.

SM (01:14:26):
Again, the healing for you, the healing for the vets, but how about the nation? The nation was torn apart with the war and a lot of things.

JC (01:14:36):
Nobody wants to be torn.

SM (01:14:38):
Do you think we are still divided from that era? Do you think you still have the divisions from that era based on-

JC (01:14:44):
I do, but I do not think to the degree that we did then. If you look back then on the news reports and you would see all the protestors, you would see mobs and mobs and mobs of them. I just saw a news clip the other day after Lady Bird Johnson was killed with President Johnson standing in the White House. And you could hear in the background all the protestors and the things they were saying to you, "How does it feel to let another family lose a son?" You could hear that because that is how close the sidewalk. But you do not see that protesting on the news like you did back in the (19)60s. So, to answer your question, yes, but not to the same degree.

SM (01:15:34):
I have always had the thought that, and like your opinion on this too, that those individuals who were in the anti-war movement, who were, whether they be in college or not in college or whatever, that when they bring their kids now and their grandchildren to the wall... But all kids say, "Dad or mom, what did you do during that time?" And then of course the 85 percent who supposedly never was involved in the anti-war or any activism or served, that whole generation, you are-

JC (01:16:15):
I would like to know what they say to their kids as they come to the wall.

SM (01:16:19):
I think that if you have ever sat down in Janice [inaudible], I think this is a story that really has not been discussed.

JC (01:16:24):
I think you are right.

SM (01:16:26):
Because I think the wall is become... To me, it is such a symbol to everything. It is about healing.

JC (01:16:36):
It is.

SM (01:16:39):
And it is about caring for those who gave their lives. There's no room for politics here. It is a time to reflect. It is a time to think. And it is also a time to reevaluate what you did when you were young. And I think that wall does that to every boomer.

JC (01:17:04):
Yeah. That is-

SM (01:17:05):
No matter who they were or where they were at that time. And there is millions of stories, oral histories that need to be told on this.

JC (01:17:11):
I think you are right.

SM (01:17:12):
And hopefully I am going to be part of it because I got to devote the rest of my life to a lot of these things when I leave higher education. The wall, I go down there on my own a lot. I was just down there last week and I go to the wall and there's no ceremonies happening. I just sit there on the bench and reflect.

JC (01:17:28):
See, that is my dream to go in the middle of the night. I have this punch list of things I want to do before I die. One was go skydiving, I did do that. That was the best thing I ever did.

SM (01:17:41):
Wow.

JC (01:17:42):
That was awesome. One is to ride into Washington DC in the middle of the night on a Harley. And I do not even own a Harley, I did not even have a motorcycle license and go to the wall at night when nobody was around. Because when you go during the day, there is all these people there and you just do not feel like... I worry too much about what other people think. You see some kid who is like 12, 13 walking down towards you. You do not want to be standing there, blubbering idiot. And my husband will say, "Well, why do you care? If you want to blubber, blubber?" And sometimes you cannot control it. But I want to be there in the middle of the night. Just by myself.

SM (01:18:26):
I have been there around 12 midnight. But the one thing about they say about the area, it is not safe because there has been some murders at the Lincoln Memorial and that is why they actually closed off the back area there. Because two years ago there were two murders. As you look at Arlington, people had wandered around the back and then they were murdered there. So, I cannot believe... There should be a lot more security there. I think the security should be in that whole area should be increased so people cannot-

JC (01:19:02):
Oh, I remember when 9/11 happened. Of course, it's like President Kennedy's death. We all know where we were and what we were doing. But I remember when that one plane was not quite accounted for. I remember vividly walking into the lady's room, going into the stall and just praying with all my strengths. Dear God, do not let them destroy [inaudible]. I was so afraid of that.

SM (01:19:31):
One thing about the wall that I now know is that if anything ever did happen to the wall, they have backups for the wall. They are made already because those are not the originals. So, some of the originals, I think there is at least one or two of them taken out already. They wear out. That is why they do not allow people to walk on top anymore. Nothing will ever happen to that wall. Because they know in time that certain sections will have to be replaced. The names will all be on there, it will just be replaced. It is there forever.

JC (01:20:11):
Good.

SM (01:20:12):
Just like the World War II memorials. So, they are there forever. They have backup plans. And that is the first thing I ask because that is why they stopped the people walking because in the early years-

JC (01:20:21):
Personal etchings.

SM (01:20:23):
Yeah. Do you want to take a break here or I got a-

JC (01:20:29):
Oh no, I am fine. If you are fine.

SM (01:20:30):
I take a... Maybe, well-

JC (01:20:33):
Why do not you take a break? Because you are the one that is in there.

SM (01:20:35):
Oh, this has been fascinating because it allows you to be able to share your thoughts. And certainly, before I leave, I do not know if you have a picture of your brother, picture of you with your brother, because that is very important. And certainly, when I go down to the Vietnam memorial-

JC (01:20:52):
Yeah. He lives this with me.

SM (01:20:57):
I guess about the healing. This business about healing, just your thoughts, do you think that many members of the generation are having healing problems that were not veterans?

JC (01:21:10):
Yeah, and I think I am thinking about it more after what you just said. I bet there is a lot of guilt from some of those people that protested. I bet they never envisioned the Vietnam Memorial Wall being the most visited memorial in Washington DC. And I would be very interested in going back and talking to some of them myself to see how they are raising their kids. Oh, yeah. I think there's guilt with... We all have guilt for whatever reason.

SM (01:21:41):
I have always thought, and I have had this from some of the people, do you like them or not that when you think of the people who served, and when you think of the people who protested, who were sincere in their protests, and then you think of the 85 percent of the 70 million that did nothing. How are those 85 thinking? Because those people that protested the war may not change one bit. You do not treat a veteran poorly, but they will be very solid in their beliefs against the war. But the question I have is, I am a little child with a father or mother. Mom and dad. What did you do? Did you serve or did you protest?

JC (01:22:32):
I remember my mother worked at the Pentagon when Keith was killed. And she would periodically, not all the time, but sometimes on her way to work, stop at Keith's grave before coming to work. And she went to Keith's grave, now I remember I grew up in Arlington. So that whole section where Keith was buried was nothing but a grassy field when I was a kid. I watched them turn that grassy field into... When Keith was buried, those green berets were in mud up to their knees. Precision. Because it was not grassed over and they were all the temporary markers.

SM (01:23:13):
Right.

JC (01:23:14):
But my mother came to work and she saw this tarp laying over Keith's grave, and she thought, "Well, they are digging more graves and everything." She said, "Maybe one of the workers left this tarp." She walked over and she kind of pushed it and there was somebody in it under, it was a kid. He was sleeping.

SM (01:23:35):
Oh my gosh.

JC (01:23:36):
My mother said, "What are you doing?" And he said, "I am here as a war protestor and I needed a place to sleep." And she said, "Do you know where you're sleeping? You are in a national cemetery. You are on my son's body."

SM (01:23:52):
Oh my gosh, that is terrible.

JC (01:23:54):
Then he told my mother that he was given $25. He was up from New England someplace. He was paid $25 to get on a bus and come to Washington to protest. These kids were paid money to come into Washington.

SM (01:24:13):
They did not really care?

JC (01:24:14):
Did not even know what they were doing.

SM (01:24:16):
Unbelievable. Can I use your restroom?

JC (01:24:19):
Oh, absolutely.

SM (01:24:25):
Here we go. Next question is dealing with the generation gap. There was a tremendous generation gap for the boomers because there was a lot of parents were split from kids during that era. And there does not seem to be today... I work with college students though there seems to be a real closeness between parent and child today because there's so involved in their son or daughter's education. Could you comment your thoughts on the generation gap that happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s? Did you see it? Did you sense it? And you have already said that your family was pretty close in the values and maybe your family-

JC (01:25:17):
Well, my parents were divorced too, and so I did not know my dad, so in that sense. And I would say the majority of my friends, gosh, I think [inaudible] of my friend's parents, if I remember correctly, were married. Phil, my boyfriend, he was killed in Vietnam. His parents were divorced, but they were cordial to one another. His dad lived in Taiwan most of that time. His mother lived in Arlington. But I do not really see that.

SM (01:25:50):
Because the generation gap, there is a Life magazine cover, which showed a young boy. I have it in my office at work and the whole magazine is all about the generation gap.

JC (01:25:57):
Well, I have remember people talking about that. Yeah.

SM (01:26:04):
Do you sense that today's families are closer than maybe they were in the-

JC (01:26:15):
I think they are striving for that now. I think they got along the way to go. But I look at people that I know who have kids in college, and you're right. When they are in college, all the paperwork you got to fill out and all that. I do not know. I do not-

SM (01:26:38):
What do you think will be the, as time goes on, what will be the legacy of the boomer generation?

JC (01:26:48):
Everybody is going to think of Vietnam. I really do. Vietnam will be a big issue, but hopefully it will be a learning experience.

SM (01:27:02):
The issue of trust is something that.

SM (01:27:03):
The issue of trust is something that... I will use my myself as an example. When I think of, when growing up of... When I was very young, I had a minister. My grandfather was a minister, and we would go to church every Sunday as a little boy, and I looked up to my minister. I looked up to my teacher. I looked up to people in authority. I looked up to even President Eisenhower, even though I was a little boy, and John Kennedy. Heck, I met John Kennedy when I was a little boy at Hyde Park one Sunday. Something happened in that era of... With the Gulf of Tonkin, if you read about that, was that contrived, the body counts? Then we ended up in Watergate. Then you had presidents like Nixon with the Enemies List, and there is a lack of trust, and I think it affected a lot of people in the boomer generation. Could you comment on whether trust, how did that whole issue, how important trust is with you as a member of the boomer generation, and your peers, your thoughts on the whole issue of trust and trust in leaders?

JC (01:28:20):
I think trust is something that has to be earned, and I think people have lost a lot of trust along the way for some of the very issues that you have mentioned. I mean, you would think that your leader that you trusted to run the country or whatever would do it in an honorable way. I mean, you just look at Enron and all of that. I mean, you have major individuals who are overseeing corporations, who have stripped people of their future. Their retirement's gone, and I think people have lost a lot of trust in a lot of people, and I think trust is something that is really in a bad way right now.

SM (01:29:16):
Do you blame the boomer parents for maybe their kids not trusting, or do kids trust today? What effect does this lack of trust have on the kids?

JC (01:29:30):
I think the effect it has on people, people pretty much do their own thing anymore. They feel like that they do not... That is why I do not think they look up to leadership with respect anymore because they just feel like... Oh, I mean, I look at a recent incident that was in the news, when the iPhone came out here. Here, you have a mayor, who's mayor of a city that people are dying constantly on the streets, and he is sitting in a lawn chair behind an iPod. When you trust that that leader would be working to make sure people are... I mean, send an assistant to sit in the lawn chair. I think it's not only trust, it is just there is kind of that sense of accountability is gone, and respect, but no wonder. I mean, look at some of the things that you see.

SM (01:30:25):
As a young person, and when your brother passed away, did you put any blame on President Johnson and President Nixon, depending on the year?

JC (01:30:37):
Actually, maybe I was one of those rare birds from the (19)60s. I actually did not get into that accounting of blame. I really did not. I do not think any human being would have a pulse if they did not feel the pain and the loss for each and every casualty that comes across their desk. I look at President Johnson. I look at President Bush. I know we have a letter from President Johnson. Maybe it was just a form letter, who knows? I would have to go back and look at it again, but probably was. But I am sure when he had that stack of letters on his desk, and if President Bush still does that today, if that is still done, they still have to be thinking when they are stroking that pen, and it has to affect them in some way. It truly does. I never did blame Nixon and Johnson. I read books, and McNamara and all of them, and again, there were issues that happened that I am not pleased with, but I really... No, I do not. If it had not been Vietnam, it would have been perhaps another conflict. Nobody wants war, but it's inevitable. I went through a phase in my life where I was almost that generation of peace, peace, peace, but then I realized that that was an immaturity. It is naive to think we're never going to have war. I mean, just look how history repeats itself. Of course, I do not want war. Nobody does, but unfortunately it happens. The thing that scares me is the fact with the technology we have, the weapons get more powerful.

SM (01:32:50):
I have come to the section now where I am just going to read some names from that little section toward the end where you... Just quick responses, they do not have to be any in-depth, just your initial, quick response on your thoughts on these individuals.

JC (01:33:03):
There is one that I am already getting a little blood pressure up.

SM (01:33:06):
Okay-okay. Yeah, Tom Hayden.

JC (01:33:12):
No comment.

SM (01:33:14):
Jane Fonda.

JC (01:33:16):
I do have strong feelings about Jane Fonda, only in the regard that I have seen how Vietnam veterans have responded to her. I was not there. I did not see her palm pass what has been rumored that she passed. I have heard her say in recent years that she was a born-again Christian, but her definition of born-again Christian must be a little bit different than mine because I recently saw her on David Letterman, and that was not my depiction of what a born-again Christian is. I do truly feel if Jane Fonda really is sorry for the wounds that have been created between her and Vietnam veterans, if she truly is repenting of that, that she should spend some time going to different veterans' organizations and trying to have healing before any more veterans pass, and even before she passes because I think there is a strong bitterness there that it would be nice to see healed. I do not know if it will ever happen though.

SM (01:34:38):
Robert McNamara.

JC (01:34:45):
Had a lot of power.

SM (01:34:51):
Does it upset you that he knew in (19)67, as he states in his book, In Retrospect, that we should have left Vietnam, that it was a losing war, yet he did nothing to do it, and then he left. That is getting into politics again.

JC (01:35:11):
I know, but you know what? In the very end of things... You were talking earlier about somebody going to their grave not liking somebody. In the very end, all of these people who have an accountability, I believe that, [inaudible] threefold.

SM (01:35:29):
How about Lyndon Johnson? Again, just quick comments on him. Bobby Kennedy?

JC (01:35:43):
I thought he was very energetic and had potential there.

SM (01:35:49):
Eugene McCarthy.

JC (01:35:54):
Again, powerful.

SM (01:35:58):
How about John Kennedy?

JC (01:36:02):
I thought he was very powerful. When you hear about the Camelot era and all of that, I think a lot of that was just... There was a lot of grace during that era, a lot of grace and respect because I too remember growing up, and it is Mr. President, Mr. President. You hear the youth today talk about Bill, Billy Boy, and that what's-its-name guy in Texas, who cannot even speak a complete sentence. I mean, there is no respect. Even if you do not like the person, even if you do not like any of these names of these people that you are talking about, to me, there should be a respect for the office.

SM (01:36:51):
Is this working? Yes, it is. All right.

JC (01:36:55):
When you are naming all of these names and everything, as I said, and I am not sure if it was on the tape or not, I really think the offices are offices that need to be respected, and even if I do not agree with some of the things that they do, I still need to... As an American, I think it is my obligation. I need to respect the office, and if I have a negative feeling or negative comment about somebody, I am not doing the office any service by expressing that negative attitude. And I think it tends to tear down when we do that because, as I said earlier, I remember it was the president, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and now it is all these anecdotes, these flippant names about Billy and the Texan, and that is disrespectful, to me, and I do not want to be a part of that.

SM (01:38:02):
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

JC (01:38:05):
I think Dr. Martin Luther King really did bring to the forefront that there was a definite civil, I mean, a civil rights issue between Blacks and whites. I do believe strongly, though, also that sometimes it has taken to the extreme, and people take advantage of it. I think it is very, very wrong that people talk about people in a Black-white issue, anyway. I think people should be spoken of as an individual, period. Why does it matter if somebody is white or Black? If you are going to do that, we are going to have Black history month, why do not we have Caucasian history month? I mean, where do you draw the line?

SM (01:38:58):
How about Malcolm X?

JC (01:39:10):
There is a concern about, me with certain individuals, that their power to project negative thinking really does impact people. That is why it is that much more our responsibility and duty to project the positive.

SM (01:39:33):
Gets into the next group, which is the Black Power people like Huey Newton and Bobby Seale and Angela Davis.

JC (01:39:40):
And part of it... Yeah. You talk about some of those people, they get radical, and they get extreme, and there is this... To me, if anybody has to scream all the time to get a point across, there is something wrong with that. I just do not like it when there is all that screaming. Do not know how to word that.

SM (01:40:03):
Were you fearful of the Black Power movement, or did that affect you in any way?

JC (01:40:10):
Well, I remember a visit, being at National Airport. It was a wedding, and it was right in the heart of all the clashes that were going on. We were in Roslyn. First, we went to National Airport, and we were expecting people into the plane, and then I had a friend of mine put his briefcase down, and he told me, "Put that briefcase by you, and do not let it out of your sight for a moment." So, I actually straddled it between my legs because he was so adamant about, "Do not let go of this." It was heavy, so I did not want to hold it. Then when he came back and we went to Roslyn to drop the people off at the hotel, I said, "What was in that suitcase?" He said, "Guns." Of course, you could not do that today. We were right in the midst of all the shootings and everything that was going on when Martin Luther King was killed, and I remember all of that. I would just like to express to these people, where does all this hatred... I think sometimes people take... I started to tell you earlier that I think sometimes the Black-white issue is taken to the extreme. Like anything, people try to milk it, take advantage. I mean, where are all these white people who are never mentioned that never grew up with this Black-white issue? I mean, people make it sound like everybody made the Blacks sit on the back of the bus. Well, they only did back then. Well, we do not do it anymore. That was wrong, and so Martin Luther King made a difference there. He really did.

SM (01:41:50):
How about Dr. Benjamin Spock?

JC (01:41:53):
I laugh when I hear about Dr. Benjamin Spock because I think my kids were raised okay. He was raised on their book, but you do not hear about him anymore, do you? I did not get involved into his politics. I just only read about him with raising babies.

SM (01:42:07):
He died in (19)98. He died the same week my mom died, and I remember being with my mom and showing her a magazine where he had passed away. And it was interesting because the week my mom died, he died before my mom died, and Frank Sinatra died two or three days later, all in 1998. So, it is hard to believe it has been that long.

JC (01:42:32):
It sure is.

SM (01:42:34):
How about the Berrigan Brothers? Did you know anything about Daniel and Philip Berrigan?

JC (01:42:37):
No, I did not.

SM (01:42:38):
The Catholic priests who were... We have had them on our campus, and one just passed away. How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the yippies?

JC (01:42:48):
Yeah, they were yippies, all right. Again, they probably got their little groupies together for all their bus trips and everything, but do you ever hear about them anymore? Here today, gone tomorrow.

SM (01:42:59):
Yeah, though they both passed away. Ironic that Jerry Rubin died illegally crossing the street.

JC (01:43:09):
Really?

SM (01:43:09):
Yeah. That was in Los Angeles. He had actually become very conservative and part of the establishment, so to speak. Yeah.

JC (01:43:15):
Well, I think a part of that, that whole thing was just a matter of maturity, this rebellious way. I mean, all kids go through that, even today.

SM (01:43:30):
Well, they were way out. I saw Jerry Rubin when I was in college, and he came to speak. The place was packed. He was a great speaker. Daniel-

JC (01:43:39):
Oh, that is scary.

SM (01:43:41):
Yeah. Obviously, great speakers can really inspire. How about Daniel Ellsberg, Pentagon Papers?

JC (01:43:48):
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SM (01:43:51):
Or Ralph Nader?

JC (01:43:54):
Well, Ralph Nader actually helped me unload a car, so I cannot say too many bad things about him.

SM (01:44:00):
Oh, he did?

JC (01:44:01):
We had a car that got off the assembly line without any inspection. It was an Omni, and I remember turning the corner, and in fact, my son was in an infant seat, and the car door flew open. And I remember driving the car when my father-in-law was here and thinking, "Oh, it just handles all the bumps so well," only to find out it did not have the right shocks and everything. And his office literally helped me unload that car without having to pay extra.

SM (01:44:32):
Excellent. Yeah, he wrote a book on that around the (19)70s. How about Gerald Ford and Richard Nixon?

JC (01:44:44):
Gerald Ford and Richard Nixon. Well, I see Richard like this. I remember my brother saying he wanted to be 21, so he could vote. So, when I think of Richard Nixon, I think of the fact that my brother never got to be old enough to vote.

SM (01:45:00):
Oh. Well, what year did your brother die?

JC (01:45:03):
(19)67.

SM (01:45:03):
Yeah, (19)68 was the first election that he could have. Yeah.

JC (01:45:14):
Damn that liar.

SM (01:45:16):
How about Muhammad Ali? Because he is very well known in terms of as an athlete, but he was against the war.

JC (01:45:23):
Yeah. Again, I am glad that he had the right to express his feelings, with democracy, about his feeling against the war. I am glad people afforded him that opportunity.

SM (01:45:37):
Yeah. Right here I am going... Spiro Agnew, I have to mention that name.

JC (01:45:40):
Oh, yeah. I remember Spiro Agnew.

SM (01:45:41):
Yeah. I do not know what you think about good old Spiro.

JC (01:45:43):
Spiro.

SM (01:45:49):
And the Watergate Committee, any thoughts on Watergate and that whole...

JC (01:45:55):
Again, it helped people to lose trust, which is a sad commentary.

SM (01:46:05):
Now, these are just some terms from the period, and just quick responses. Woodstock.

JC (01:46:13):
Hippies.

SM (01:46:13):
Communes.

JC (01:46:13):
Love.

SM (01:46:21):
Black Power.

JC (01:46:23):
Fist up in the air.

SM (01:46:26):
SDS.

JC (01:46:28):
Yes, was that a drug?

SM (01:46:29):
No, Students for a Democratic Society.

JC (01:46:33):
Oh-oh, yes. Yes-yes.

SM (01:46:35):
Started by Tom Hayden.

JC (01:46:37):
Oh, that is right. That is right. Brainwashed.

SM (01:46:42):
The Weathermen. They were the ones that blew up buildings and stuff.

JC (01:46:50):
Oh, that. Oh, yeah.

SM (01:46:52):
They were a take-off of the SDS group, and that is how it died. How about the word the counterculture? How about, let us see, Chicago 8?

JC (01:47:09):
Where is all this today? Hopefully, you do not hear about it.

SM (01:47:13):
Remember the Chicago 8 trial, the (19)68 convention? Kent State.

JC (01:47:18):
Yeah, yeah. I had a girlfriend whose sister was there, who knew that [inaudible] one.

SM (01:47:24):
Kent State and Jackson State. Any thoughts on Kent State?

JC (01:47:30):
I just remember my girlfriend's sister being there. It was not her.

SM (01:47:37):
How about the Beatles?

JC (01:47:39):
Never did like them.

SM (01:47:40):
Never did, huh? What about the music of the (19)60s, Jimi Hendricks, Janis Joplin?

JC (01:47:46):
I never liked-

SM (01:47:46):
Motown, the music.

JC (01:47:49):
I used to always play back my brother's favorites. I liked Buddy Holly and Ricky Nelson. I always thought the Beatles were too twangy, (singing). I truly never understood the big hype for the Beatles.

SM (01:48:07):
How about the Rolling Stones and all those groups?

JC (01:48:13):
Very energetic.

SM (01:48:17):
Let us see, the Missile Crisis of (19)62. Where were you when the Missile Crisis happened?

JC (01:48:31):
Oh my gosh, I was a kid. I remember the Bay of Pigs. We were sitting around the dining room table talking about that to the wee hours.

SM (01:48:38):
How about the astronauts, (19)69, walking on the moon?

JC (01:48:45):
Oh, I remember that. That was my first... I thought that was phenomenal.

SM (01:48:47):
Still remember the astronauts?

JC (01:48:49):
Glenn?

SM (01:48:51):
Well, the three that were on that mission.

JC (01:48:54):
I do not remember all three names. No.

SM (01:48:58):
That is why we do these trivia questions.

JC (01:49:00):
Oh, my husband... You're missing it, Richard. This is your best part. He would have answers to all of this.

SM (01:49:07):
I guess that is about it. I do not have any other questions to ask. I guess the one thing I want to ask you is, you have mentioned the loss of your brother as obviously the event that has touched you the most. But is there another event not linked to your brother or to your family that you remember more than any other that had an effect on you, a specific event during your youth?

JC (01:49:47):
Our housekeeper passing away, she was very dear to us. She was like my grandmother. Actually, I was not really a youth. I was married then. Wait a minute. Let me see if I can... Now when you are saying an event, what kind of an event?

SM (01:50:04):
Like the assassination of John F Kennedy or something that really...

JC (01:50:09):
That really rocked my world back then. I would say that, Kennedy. That was one of those moments in time that you can remember exactly where you were, who was with you, what you were doing. Oh yeah, I can remember that.

SM (01:50:26):
Can you tell me what...

JC (01:50:27):
I was in history class when they came over the loudspeaker. It was the end of the day, and I remember walking home with the same group of friends that I would walk home with, and we were all talking about it.

SM (01:50:38):
Were you around your family like most people were that weekend? Because he died on a Friday.

JC (01:50:44):
He did die on a Friday, yes. I walked home, and the whole family was home.

SM (01:50:54):
It was an unbelievable time.

JC (01:50:55):
It was. It really was. And it was a disbelief, I mean, to come home and turn on the TV and see it over and over and over, replaying that, and Oswald coming through.

SM (01:51:02):
Were you one of those individuals that happened to be seeing Oswald live when he was actually shot?

JC (01:51:09):
No.

SM (01:51:09):
I was. I saw him live, right when the shooting happened. I still remember, Jack Perkins was the announcer for NBC at the time. Yeah. Are there any final thoughts that you would like to mention, that maybe that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask regarding...

JC (01:51:33):
Well, fortunately, I had copied your questions beforehand, and that was good. I mean, I do regret that I did not go back and look at some of these names, really. I mean, I really did not pay attention to that. I saw them on here, but I did not even look at it, really.

SM (01:51:47):
Yeah. Some people have, during the interview, that-

JC (01:51:52):
Oh, Gloria Steinem.

SM (01:51:54):
Oh, yeah, the women's movement. Some of them have responded in... The gentleman yesterday that I interviewed, he was fantastic. He could not, he said, "Steve, when you mention a name, I cannot just give a quick two-second response." Nixon...

JC (01:52:12):
Barry Goldwater.

SM (01:52:13):
Yeah. Well, yeah. He talked about Barry Goldwater, but he said Nixon was... Nixon has gotten an unbelievable response from just about everybody because of the fact that when you look at the Vietnam Memorial, and you see the fact that when he came in at (19)68, he had a plan to change the war and bring the troops home. Over 29,000 people died after he became president. So that is quite a... And then there is all kinds of things being written about the peace talks, of Paris, and what was really going on there, and that if he really did have a plan that-

JC (01:52:57):
Why did not he enact it?

SM (01:52:58):
... it would not have been in time for your brother, but it would have been in time for 29,000 others.

JC (01:53:02):
That is a lot of people.

SM (01:53:06):
Yeah, because the people were dying through [inaudible]-

JC (01:53:07):
What is your feeling on now, on Iraq?

SM (01:53:10):
My feeling on Iraq? I think it's another Vietnam, and that is the gentleman I spoke to yesterday, but you cannot even bring up... Early on, I felt it was the same. And because we are part of the boomer generation that remembers Vietnam, to even bring the name Vietnam or quagmire up in a discussion is... You just could not do it.

JC (01:53:37):
But have we learned anything from Vietnam? I mean, if this is another Vietnam, did we learn anything from that?

SM (01:53:45):
See, I am going to end right here, and I am going to turn it off. Thank you very much.

JC (01:53:51):
Thank you.

(End of Interview)

2007-07-15/17

Stephen McKiernan

Judith Campbell

113:55

English

Binghamton University Libraries

audio/mp4

Sound

Audio

Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Sisters; Campbell, Judith--Interviews

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