Interview with Wally Kennedy

Interview with Wally Kennedy

Kennedy, Wally ; McKiernan, Stephen

Radio journalists; Kennedy, Wally--Interviews

Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago.

1997-02-15

In copyright

McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.75a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.75b

2017-03-14

McKiernan Interviews

103:36

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Wally Kennedy
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Kiernan Sullivan
Date of interview: 15 February 1997
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(Start of Interview)

SM: 00:05
Make sure it is up. I-I am-

WK: 00:06
This is a little, uh - This is a little less noisy in my office.

SM: 00:09
Right. Well, one of the main projects I am trying to work on here is to try to evaluate the, uh, the boomers and their impact over the last 30 years. One of the inspirations to that [inaudible] to lead into the first question is, um, Boomer generation, um, when you hear about it in the news today, many times politicians will make kind of statements about the boomer generation is, uh, being the reason why we have all the problems today based on their lifestyles, the free love issue, the issue of drugs in America, they will, they will kind of pinpoint back to that era that look at a lot of the, um, the protests and lack of respect for authority that was supposedly happening in that time that is carried over today. So, my very first question to you, Wally is, what are your thoughts about individuals who generalize, uh, the boomer generation will, will pinpoint the boomer generation that will be the lightning rod for all of the ills of today's society.

WK: 01:02
W-well, first of all, obviously, I-I would be defensive of people who are my age, uh, and in five or 10 years younger and five or 10 years older who have gotten this this, uh, name is the rumors. Um. I think that you have to water seeks its own level. And I think that we have, we have sought our own body. Um. I remember very clearly what it was like to grow up the 1950s in the early 1960s in America to then, and I think up until, until, uh, well, in the (19)70s, uh, especially, American government was, um, uh, somewhat repressive. I think our society was somewhat repressive. Uh, I think it was somewhat Puritan. Uh, I think it was controlled by the post-World War Two veterans. Uh, Bill Clinton is the first non-World War II veteran that we have ever had in the White House. And not saying that he is good, it is just that is just a fact of life. He was the first Boomer we have ever had in our house, in the, in the White House. So, I think that, first of all, to blame the ills of society on the baby boomers. I think it is a tremendous misnomer. Um, I think you have to take each revolution one at a time, um, for example, if and I can go into greater detail i-in other questions, but let us just say, for, for the sake of example, the sexual r-revolution, because that is, that is a flash point. Um, was there a sexual revolution? Yes, but this is pre aids. This is post pill. This is a period of time where the worst thing that could happen to you, if you were using the pill, or that your partner was using the pill, the worst thing that could happen to you is you would get a venereal disease, which was easily curable, easily curable by, uh, going to your doctor, getting a shot or getting a pill. And that was, that was the end of the consequence if, in fact, protection was being used and the pill is being used. Um, we now live in an era where if you sleep with the wrong person, you can die. That was not a reality in the 1960s but, but what brought that revolution about was really a convergence of, I think, of two or three different things. And I can, I can tell you one thing right now, I was brought up in a very religious Catholic home. I am still a practicing Catholic, and I will be probably till the day I die. But not only the Catholic Church, but America in general, was a very repressive sexual society prior to the 1960s, um, it was something that was not talked about. Uh, I love my father very dearly. He was a very well-educated man, but basically, I learned much more on the street about sexuality than I ever learned from him. And this is a man with a PhD and a woman and a wife who is, you know, college. Um, all I learned about sexuality I learned in the street. And I did think that there was a significant- [intercom interruption] That is something we are going to have to live with, unfortunately. [inaudible] Um, I think there was a significant resentment on the part of a lot of so-called Baby Boomers that all the all the information about sexuality, uh, had to be squeezed out of legitimate sources if they got it at all. So, is it any wonder that Playboy magazine or other instruments of sexuality skyrocketed during the 1960s because the thirst for good information, for something that is very natural and very legitimate, very in, in, something that is a part of all of us just simply was not there? I mean, you can scour textbooks that we used in high school biology classes in the 1960s and there would be vague references to zygotes, and you know that in many cases, they would not even use the term sperm, you know, which now rolls off the tongue. I mean, as a talk show host, I probably used the word 300 times in the last year, um, but there was a real, honest to God, vacuum of legitimate information that every young man and young woman deserved to have t-to say nothing about the fact that they were raging hormones and all that other stuff. But basically, we lived in a very repressive culture concerning that. Uh, we lived in a very repressive culture concerning the sexuality of women, which is, which was one of the, one of the fundamentals and what the genesis of the women's movement that started in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, uh, before it became politicized, much of what the women's movement was all about was around the fact that women had literally, literally been kept in a second-class status, not only in terms of their power within our culture, but also sexually. Women were viewed as the sexual objects of men. They were viewed as, as the object to be enjoyed by men. And the idea that they could have a sexuality of their own and that they could enjoy sexuality was preposterous. Smart Women always knew that. Women who-who empowered themselves, always knew that. But the average American woman was-was not thought of as in terms of her sexuality. Her sexuality was looked at for two things. Number one, it was to police her man, and number two was to have babies. And so, if our-our generation, the people who graduated from college in the early in the mid (19)60s and to the mid (19)70s, had the audacity to say, wait a minute, there has got to be more to life than that. Then so be it. Are we responsible for a million teenage pregnancies? Are we responsible for, uh, for a million abortions in America? I doubt it. I do not think so. I think that is an awfully, uh, heavy burden to put on a generation of people. Are we responsible for saying that people are sexual? Yes, good, good.

SM: 07:08
This leads me right into, um, the question dealing with, uh, your thoughts, uh, y-you deal with the sexual revolution here, but your basic thoughts on whether the boomer generation was a more of a positive or a negative, [inaudible background noise] and, um, in response,

SM: 07:23
If you can list a, list a review of the, uh, things that you think were positive about the boomers and some of the negatives about the boomers. [intercom interruption]

WK: 07:31
Well, I think it- I very much fall down in, in the direction of the positives. Um, first of all the positives: I think the single biggest positive to come out of the 1960s which was largely creation of the boomers in, in all men of goodwill and women of goodwill, was the Civil Rights Movement. Uh, America entered the 1960s with the status quo perfectly content to marginalize in every way, shape or form, black men and women and America entered the 1970s, uh, with largely because of Dr. King, but also because of the help of, of boomers, both black and white, um, committed to the idea that that was never going to happen again, and that the second-class status of African Americans, which to this Day still needs very close scrutiny, um, but that was forever changed. And I think that it was the boomers who said, Dad, why are those dogs going after those kids in Birmingham? Dad, how come those cops are turning those fire hoses on legitimate protesters in Alabama? And, and it was the boomers who raised those questions, I-I think that that is that is so-so I think in terms of long, lasting effects and positive effects, I think that number one would be the civil rights movement, although one could arguably say even in 1997 that there was still plenty of room for improvement. Um, second thing, um, I do not think that there is any question that we, we legitimately pressured the United States government into getting out of Vietnam. Unfortunately, too late. There has always been the argument as to whether or not had JFK lived after the 1964 election, would he have withdrawn the troops because he already saw the writing on the wall, because at the time, at the time that JFK was killed, about 150 advisors had already been killed, and all I know is that one of the joys of my life was that I had the opportunity to interview the late Dean Rusk after he had left government service, he went back to the University of Georgia, and he was on the, the law school, and I asked him that. Now I read different answers in print, but I told I will tell you that he told me face to face, that Kennedy planned to withdraw the troops from Vietnam after the 1964 election, and the only reason is that, that he kept them there is because he was hoping like hell that the South Vietnamese would take these people literally for what they were, which was advisors, take their advice and, and be able to mobilize a standing army which would be able to withstand the North that was point number one. And point number two was purely political. Kennedy was a political animal, and Kennedy realized that he was going to be probably running against Goldwater, who was this arch conservative, and he did not want to have to deal with Goldwater pointing a finger in his face, saying you were responsible for making South Vietnamese Communist. Because remember, back in those days, the single worst thing that you could be in the universe was a communist. So, if the domino theory were true and South Vietnam, South Vietnam had fallen, then Kennedy would have taken the burden for it, but Dean Rusk told me JFK was going to pull the troops from Vietnam. I think. I started my college career debating a member of the students for the democratic society. I ended my college career out in the street with them. Um, there, there came a point at which my upbringing and my knowledge and my looking at what was going on, just said, this is wrong. This is so wrong. And then there came the point where I think we all realized this government, which is a this was an absolute first, and you can give 100 percent credit to the baby boomers, although it has a lasting effect, and I think a very negative effect. The baby boomers were the first to say, “This government is lying.” Now, all the, all the, you know, the American Legion guys with their hats on, who, what, who fucked the big one [inaudible] would listen to us and say, [inaudible] these kids are patriotic. I mean, the American government does not lie. We know for a fact. We know for a fact the government lied. We know the President lied, we know Johnson lied, we know Nixon lied. We know that the body count was absolute horse shit. Um, so baby boomers, the college students at the time, were forcing the, the government to come clean. A-And I think Nixon put us in a position, and I think history has, has backed me up in this where, you know, he polarized the country to such a great deal that basically, we were on the we were on the brink of civil war. It was the young versus the old, and I was proud to be among the young. And do not think I did not have a number of set twos with my own with my own father, about this, because he was a World War Two veteran and the read. But the reality is that even he and most Americans by the time, by the time the Paris Peace Talks, came up with some kind of a conclusion, everybody was so sick of it and wanted it to end so badly, but they lied to us, so we were responsible for that. However, there is a downside, and the downside is this, we are responsible we are now in our (19)30s and (19)40s, not (19)30s. We are in our (19)40s and (19)50s. We are responsible for-for making our children believe that government can never be honest. We are responsible for constantly bringing up Vietnam, bringing up Watergate, bringing up government deception, to the point where you have one of the most popular shows on television, The X Files, the predicate of which is the government deceives. And the government, the government will do. The government is a power unto itself, and the government will lie and cheat and steal and do whatever it damn well pleases. And so that is a [inaudible] as so, many of the things that we did well, were advantages at the time. Now they have become disadvantages, because now you take your average 18 or 19- or 20-year-old, and sometimes they just flat out, flat out, do not believe what the government says, which is ironic, because the government is Bill Clinton, who's a who's a baby boomer.

SM: 13:39
This gets right into the issue of trust, which is later on in [inaudible mumbling], go right into it. Um, there is a feeling that I have had for quite some time when I deal with college students, although I have been hiring for 18 years, that, um, college students today certainly question, just like we questioned when we were young. They want to have answers. But there is a I am wondering that this concept of trust, the psychologists will say that people cannot succeed, or one cannot succeed in life unless you trust others, you know, trust your parents, trust your family. You got to have a sense of trust. But many of the boomers came out of that era because of what happened with Watergate, because of the lives of Vietnam, because of many other, um, crises that have happened with political leaders, of lacking trust in the political process, uh, lacking trust in anybody in a position of power and responsibility, and that not only includes political leaders, but it includes ministers, head, CEOs of corporations. Um, a question I am kind of leaning at here is, um, how you know you referred to it here, but how important and how serious is this issue of trust in America today, not only for people our age, the boomers, for the parents of these young people, but the children of boomers, and in, in some respects, even, uh, the people World War Two, generation from the, uh, from World War Two, because, uh, they all experience what we all went through in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And so, this issue of trust, where do you place that on the scale? Say, one to ten in terms of how serious it is in this country, or lack thereof?

WK: 15:04
Oh, I-I think if I had to-to look at America 1997 I would, I would label lack of trust is, is probably one of the four or five most significant problems in our culture today. So, I am serious about our being somewhat responsible for the-the way America is today in, in a negative sense. I do not know that it is not I do not know that it that was our responsibility to pull back. I mean, we-we had Watergate, so we elected a Georgia, Georgia Peanut Farmer as president, and we expected him to cure all of our ills he did, and, and so therefore we became disappointed in him, and then we went with-with Reagan and the Republicans who, who told us what we wanted to hear. And now we know that with things like Iran Contra, there were convenient lapses of memory, where, where Ronald Reagan applied, and there was ample evidence to indicate that George Bush line. So, I think that, I think the trust in government issue is that if we set up a government whereby, in a democracy, the only way you can keep staying in your own government is by lying, or not necessarily lying, but telling people what they want to hear. Because, after all, elections are a popularity contest, so that that is that is a difficult dilemma, but at least, I think we are much more out in the open about it. I see like Senate races, though, like this. The Torricelli Zimmer race last year, um, turned my stomach, because it gets to the point where you have, you have two men who sink so low in their quest for-for high office, and it is high office representing the-the great state of New Jersey in the in the United States Senate is a high office, and it is a wonderful honor. To, to sink so low, and in this, this finger waving of who is more liberal? You are a liberal, you are a liberal, you are a liberal, whereas you, you had this, this overweight, blow hard Republican party spokesman with a three-hour radio program who has no challenge at all, and basically, he has turned the word liberal into one of the filthiest words in the English language. So, so, of course, if I am 19 years old, who am I going to trust? Who can you trust? Um, I also I feel sadly because I think that, that I hope I am wrong, but I but I think that one has to, as one gets older, one has to have a spiritual trust in a higher power, whether you call it God, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, one has to come to grips with why we are here, what we are here for. And I think that that was something that, frankly, you asked me one of the disadvantages of the boomers? We convinced ourselves that we put ourselves here, we convinced ourselves that we-we did all these wonderful things, and we convinced ourselves that we could do very well without that, without anybody's help, especially the help of a higher power, because we had religion jammed down our throats when we were kids, and once we became adults, we did not want to have to deal with it. And it is only when you get married and you have kids and you start raising your own kids that you really sc-scratch your head and say, okay, well, now what am I going to teach them? So, I think th-that that the-the removal of God or a spirituality from American culture is very-very attributable to the, uh, to the baby boomers, very much so, but we are not the generation that throws our babies in the toilet. It is 19-year-old that are doing that. It is 18-year-old that are doing that. We may be their parents, but I do not know. I-I rather suspect that if you ask me what I think is wrong with America today, I will tell you, lack of trust is, is a significant factor. I think, uh, a lack of respect for authority is a significant factor. But when you have got a president who's a skirt chaser, and then basically all the things that we have now come out to find out about even LBJ, I mean, Roosevelt had Lucy Mercer. JFK had more mistresses than you can shake a stick at Roosevelt had his ones on the side. And so now we come to find out that all these guys were kind of near do wells. And so therefore you-you wonder why we do not have trust. But I think that the country suffers from lack of trust, a lack of respect. And I think that one of the single largest issues in the country today is the fact that you have almost 50 percent of young adults growing up in a home where both parents do not live and-and we-

SM: 19:29
Oh!

WK: 19:29
-we sweep it under the rug, we pretend like it is and we do talk shows, and people get on and psychologists hypothesize how, you know, it does not really make any difference whether the father is in the picture. It does not really make any difference whether the parents are married. It does not really make any difference if you are married three or four or five times. No. You know, the eternal quest for love is-is nonsense.

SM: 19:51
That goes directly back to the boomers then, and maybe their failure in terms of, um, being parents or, um, a-and the attacks I originally referred to at the beginning of the interview that, uh, maybe one of the weaknesses, there may be some semblance of truth to the problems today because of the way boomers think. A-and the, the question I want to ask right now is, have boomers shared? This is a very important concept here, sharing their experiences, sitting down with their sons and daughters and saying, this is the way it was, Mary or John. Um, have boomers transferred the issue of passion to their children. We all know today that volunteerism is very important amongst today's young people. They, they volunteer in high school and they volunteer in college. You are probably up to 90 percent of students coming in or close to it who are volunteering. But that does not get into the whole issue of desiring at some juncture to serve others, to want to become a politician, or to want to go into a position of responsibility to serve others beyond oneself. So, I am getting a what are your thoughts on that, in terms of, have boomers related to their kids? Um, and, and have they sat down a-and, and supposedly a quality boomer had was passion. Your thoughts on the passion that boomers had and whether they have been able to transfer this to their transfer this to their kids.

WK: 21:04
Well, obviously I can only speak on behalf of my own, um, and my wife and I are, are the same age. We are both 48 and, uh, so we both, even though I did not know her when I was going through college, we both lived these things at very different levels. She was at Central Michigan University. I was at Columbia College in Chicago. So, in an urban setting, I was exposed to a lot more, but yet at the same time, I mean, they, they, they had their changes as well. Um, it would be irresponsible of me as a parent to not let my children know that, once upon a time, not too long ago, that a black woman or a black man could not drink at the same water fountain. It would be irresponsible of me to, in any way, shape or form, agree with that Reagan quote that Vietnam was noble. I think Vietnam was not noble. Vietnam was a mistake. It was a mistake. It was a mistake. We may have had good intentions, but the fact of the matter is, I cannot help but look at that wall now very cynically, and look at the names of 60,000 martyrs, and they were martyrs for LBJ, and they were martyrs for Nixon, and they were martyrs for this American jingoistic bullshit idea that we, that we are the people to tell the whole world how to run their affairs. I think that the world has done a tremendous job of discovering itself that communism left to its own devices, collapses under its own weight. That is what is happening in Eastern Europe. But, um, so as a parent, it would be grossly irresponsible of me not to let them know about what tremendous injustices existed as I was a young adult and I was looking at the world the same way they look at it. Now, they take these things for granted. I have got two daughters. I have got a 16-year-old and a 14-year-old. The idea that they can do anything they want, they take for granted. That is a given. If they want to be doctors, fine if they want to be you know, I have always told them, do not if, if you want to be a flight attendant, be a flight attendant, but for God's sakes, if you want to be a pilot, be a pilot. You know, whereas, whereas women in our age were told, oh, you want to fly? Be a flight attendant. And they were not even called flight attendants. They were called stewardesses, and they had to be lookers, and they could not gain weight and, and all that. So, I think it is imperative, and to any responsible parent to say, this is the way it was. And this is, this is what has changed. Kids are kids, and kids are going to take that information and process in any way they think they have. I [stuttering] my kids, all three of my kids, are far from perfect, and I have got one, as you all know, who's, you know, kind of trying to still discover himself, but he would no more involve himself any kind of in any kind of an act of racism or sexism or any of the isms then, then he would, you know, walk in front of a railroad train. Um, in my-my daughter, the middle child, is 16 years old, but mentally, she is much more mature, and, uh, we will hear comments made at the school that she goes to, which is a parochial high school that she considers to be homophobic, and she will stop right in their tracks, and she will turn around, and she will she will tell some kid, it is not faggot.

SM: 24:12
Right.

WK: 24:13
There are no faggots. You know, there are gay people and-and I am proud of her for that.

SM: 24:19
That is good.

WK: 24:19
So yes, I-I think that we have a duty. We have a responsibility. The last line in the movie platoon is [coughing]we have a r-responsibility to pass on to those who survived, uh, the stories of those who had not- i-in why they have that and what that was all about. So, um, I think most people I know, who are my age or thereabouts, in one way or another, tried to incorporate into their kids some kind of a sense of the decency that, that all of us, I think, felt. Uh, I think the Catholic Church has been maligned, and in some cases deservedly so, but I also think that the Catholic Church, I look at the Catholic Church as, as-as a major force of change, uh, in the area of civil rights, very they made it very abundantly clear by the mid to late 1960s I mean, some of those people getting the hell beat out of them down south were priests.

SM: 25:29
Mhm.

WK: 25:30
And, uh, you know, you have got the Bering brothers-

SM: 25:33
Right, [inaudible]

WK: 25:35
-and many of the and even some of the people around here who were arrested out of GE for trying to destroy the nuclear warheads were Catholic priests, um and that the morality, morality is such that every individual as Dr. King said, you know, the, the grandsons of slave owners and the grandsons of slaves should be able to stand side by side. And I, although we do not live in a utopian society, I think they were much, much closer to it. Um, it would be, what is the point? What is the point? I mean, I lived in the greatest era of the 20th century. Um, I do not a-and from what I have heard, I had no desire to live during the Depression, and I certainly had no desire to live during World War Two. But I can look back at my life now, and you know, hopefully there is a lot more of it left to live, but my God, what a great time to live. Uh, what a what a force of change we were. Um, you know, we were all brought up with Dr. Spock. And you know, when people would, you know, people would run to the drugstore when they would have a baby, and the first thing that they would get, besides the diapers, was Dr. Spock's book. And then it turned out, Dr. Spock came back and said, I screwed up.

SM: 26:34
Yeah. [laughing]

WK: 26:59
I loved him. I had him on two or three times he is a delightful old guy. And one woman called up and said, Dr. Spock, I hope, I hope that you-you are proud of yourself. You screwed up an entire generation. [laughter] Uh-

SM: 27:15
Have you, have you changed your opinions of the, uh, the boomers as you have gotten older? Remembering those times when you were, uh, went to college for that first time and challenged that SDS member, and then you were out in the streets yourself, and toward the end, and now you are a TV, um, personality and had many different jobs, um, to the day. Have you changed or been pretty consistent, uh, on your thoughts on the boomers? And, uh, a-and secondly, one of the terms that many of us used at that time, and I would go into and that is, we are the most unique generation in American history. How would you comment on that? Some, as some people might say, an arrogant statement that we are the most unique, uh, different generation.

WK: 27:54
Well, to be young is to be arrogant. You know, it is arrogance is an arrogance is a virtue that is especially endemic in the young. Um, I think at the time, I think that we were justified feeling that because, I mean, if you take that 10-year period of time, let us say between 19...1963 and 1973 we, um, made huge strides in the struggle for equality for all Americans. We, um, stopped the war that was terribly immoral and terribly unpopular. We brought out of the closet a-a very basic human need, which is sexuality. [getting up] Let me close this door [inaudible]. We were responsible for pressuring the Congress into removing a, uh, a president who was a liar. Um, so I would think that probably, if I had to guess, that statement was probably made sometime in the early (19)70s, because we were probably feeling our odds. And I think that every-every youthful generation feels their odds, see, I think the whole ballgame changed that when Reagan got it, because Reagan basically came in and said, “It is good to be a boomer.” Reagan basically came in and said, “Wealth is good.” And so, you had under Reagan, you had the, uh, you know, the, the movie hero the 1980s was Gordon Gekko. Wealth is good, you know. What? What is wrong if you want a BMW? What the hell is wrong with having a BMW? You know, if pe- if people are starving in Honduras, screw them. How many of you? How many of them do you know personally? And so, I think that through his charisma, which was considerable, um, Reagan, all of a sudden, took our-our, uh, our desire, which is uniquely American. I-I-I guess all people have a desire to feel good about themselves, but we really do, and he was certainly the most charismatic president since Kennedy, um, in-in, in my life, the two most charismatic presidents were Reagan and, uh, Kennedy, and Reagan came along and said, “What is wrong with being wealthy?” And, and so we had this tremendous period of prosperity. And I think some of us, as all of us grew in our jobs and grew in wealth and grew, you know, started having families of our own. I think all of us got kind of caught up in that BMW, uh, you know, okay, I paid my dues. Why should I have to worry about the other guy kind of thing? Um, and, and I do not know whether that is more a function of age, or what the political wind, or what the political climate is in America right now, so I think the Reagan kind of dampened the, that desire to change things. I mean, you know, Jerry Rubin became a stockbroker, you know, Abbie Hoffman became basically a comedian. Um, that the significant - there were no more significant strides to make. There were no wars, no more wars to be won. Um, by 1973 the feminist movement was well on its way. Uh the Civil Rights Movement was had really prospered. Uh, Vietnam, war was history. The, uh, the draft was history. So, yeah, I-I think that that is the relatively arrogant statement, but I think tha-that there is plenty of stuff to back that up. I do not see; I do not see the generation of today accomplishing those kinds of things. I mean, somebody comes out and says, “Oh, Tara Tabitha” [mic cuts out, fumbling to get it back in place]. You know, I-I can say, for example, in this in this field, in, in my field, um, when I started, th-there has been, as, as there had been in many fields, it has been tremendous change when I started being on the radio, which is where I started, was the domain of the white male with [intercom interruption] Uh, with the occasional exception of the very smooth voiced African American male, no women. God, you know, you would have a woman do a cooking show or something like that. [talking over each other] And then bit by bit, they put them in. And lo and behold, the, uh, the radio stations did not lose their audience, and lo and behold, they there were some that were pretty damn good. I do not see, frankly, the same quality of, of hunger, and I do not see the same quality of, of, um, well studied nature that coming out of the kids that are coming into the field today, I see people who want to be within five years, they want to be the six o'clock anchor, and they want to be making $800,000 a year. And when you tell them, yeah, well, that all starts if you are lucky, if you are lucky, you get a job as a production assistant in Scranton for 15 grand a year. And then they bristle. Interestingly enough, the ones that turn out, the ones that do not bristle and say, “Okay, I am on my way,” are usually the ones that do quite well.

SM: 33:09
Strong work ethic.

WK: 33:11
Yeah, very much so. And I, and I think that, um, we are, we are, to a very large extent, our parents. And I think that my appearance, li-like many people, my-my grandparents were immigrants. Uh, my, my parents were the son and daughter of Irish immigrants, and not working was not an option. I mean, I did not even know what the hell welfare was, and the idea that I would not want to work anyway. I mean to me, what I do is lazy enough to begin with. I mean t-to me, in my world, I just if you sit on your butt in a radio studio all day and make a living at it, my god, that was just like, you know. I mean, my grandfather was a blacksmith and on a day like today where it is 100 degrees outside, that did not mean he did not go to work. He went to work, and the horses had to be shod, and because it was hot, they would be irritated. And, um, [someone coming in] Hi, David, how are you?

Dave Roberts: 34:19
Good.

WK: 34:19
Dave Roberts, Steve McKiernan [inaudible] I-I think, um, I think especially if [mic cuts out]

WK: 34:22
I think it was a que- I think it was just a question of, what were you going to do? I do not think, I do not think that there was ever a question of, you make up your mind when you get there. I think there was always a question, what do you want to do when you I mean, the most commonly heard question, I think, was, what do you want to do when you grow up? And, um, so, you know, a lot of guys went to med school, a lot of guys went to law school. Um, a lot of people, just like myself, got a bachelor's degree and said, this is it, Jack, no more. This is, you know, I do not want to do anything more, more about this. But, um, I-I think that that particular period of time is indelible. I think from, uh, 60 about 63 to about 75 was indelible. I was carried out. [talking over announcement] Um, you know f-for 80 different reasons, um.

SM: 35:27
[inaudible]

WK: 35:27
Yeah.

SM: 35:27
One of the leading questions in this whole project gets into the issue of healing. Um, uh, you are the 38th interview I have had in this project.

WK: 35:36
Mhm.

SM: 35:36
This is one of the most important aspects of the interview, and that is, uh, when people visit the Vietnam Memorial. And Jan Scruggs and the things that he did, uh, the goal of that memorial was the healing process, to heal the nation, to, uh, not only the Vietnam, uh, population and their families, but, uh, the nation as a whole. But in going to the Vietnam Memorial the last six years, not only on Memorial Day, but Veterans Day, I sense a lot of there is a lot of healing that still has to come. Uh, you hear it, and some of the statements made against the president, uh, certainly they will never forgive Jane Fonda. You know, it is not 100 percent forgiving of some people, but-

WK: 36:20
She was not even here.

SM: 36:20
And I know that some Vietnam veterans wanted to know. They asked me if she was going to be there. I just said I did not know, but I-I like your opinions on this issue of healing. Um, the divisions were so strong at that time. Um, there is a brand-new book out by Jules Wilk around 1968 and I recommend it highly. It is an excellent book. Gets into that whole year and how important it was in American history.

WK: 36:20
There were protesters down there on the Fourth of July.

SM: 36:20
Right.

SM: 36:42
Yeah, and, but see, the divisions were there, and everybody seemed to it was an us versus them mentality. And the question is, many people will say, um, that the us versus them has never subsided, but it continues today and is directly linked back to that period. Uh, what have we healed? Your thoughts? Have we healed from the divisions of that time? Even though the war is over, um, the movements and some have gone on, civil rights, some people, we have taken steps backwards, as opposed to forward. But, uh, have we healed from those tremendous divisions? Or are the boomers carrying these divisions in their psyche, probably to their graves.

WK: 36:42
I would say that was the pinnacle year. The answer your question is, no, I do not think so. I-I do not think we have healed because I-I think that, um, it has made an indelible mark on all the men, especially who had to deal with in one form or another, if you were male, and, and you, especially like myself, had the unfortunate distinction of drawing a, a low number, you had to deal with this military thing. And I remember as I got into senior year in college, and I was really, really anxious to get out and pursue my craft. I was already on the radio, and I could not wait till school was over, and then I could go out to wherever, Green Bay, Wisconsin, or, as it turned out Flint, Michigan, and really do this thing full time. I remember the, the burden of having to do this military thing was just like a weight on my chest. Um, and then, fortunately for me, something totally unexpected happened, and I was able to get into a reserve, but I did my time in the service that way, and I did not have to go to Vietnam. Um, I think, though, that the healing and, and the anger, I think, very legitimately, you know, let us call a spade a spade. I was able to go to college because my father was a college professor.

SM: 38:39
Are we okay Dave in, here?

Dave Roberts: 38:40
Yeah-yeah, it is fine, it is fine. I will be out of here in a second.

SM: 38:43
Okay, oh okay. [multiple people talking at once]

WK: 38:44
I went to I went to college for two reasons, because my father was a college professor with and with, our family could afford it, and number two, because he was a college professor, I have been told since I was a little kid, that was something I owed my father. And I hated the first two years of college, those two years of college when I had all electives was just a whole different ballgame. Um, and of course, while I was in college, it became abundantly clear that being in college as opposed to being in Vietnam, was a place to be. Um, so when I was my second semester senior year, and I heard about this reserve thing, I-I obviously jumped at it, not believing it, and, and it turned out to be accurate. So, I-I did four months after, and then six months, six years in the reserve. Um, but I think by that time, I think that everybody that I was in with had pretty much solidified their feeling that, uh, the government was a liar. They lied. They just lied. They lied about body counts. They lied about not bombing Cambodia when in fact we were. They lied about ground troops being in Cambodia when in fact they were. Uh, and so every time, even now. A-a-and frankly, just as an aside, I do not know what I think about Quinn not going in because frankly I knew 80 zillion guys who would use any excuse they could get, and my attitude was more power to you. Um, you know, you did what you did. I knew guys. I knew a guy who, um, was-was a half an inch too tall to go into to pass the physical. He was that he was like six, six or something like that. And he nevertheless, the week before his physical, because he was 1A he did traction, just to make sure that he stayed too tall. Well, now think about it. Think about it. At that particular point, we had several 100,000 troops in Vietnam. They were bringing the body bags back faster than they could bring the soldiers over there. And so, think about it. So, a lot of guys were making a cottage industry out of not, not going in the first place. And second of all, I mean, there was just, there was a tremendous amount of distrust. But the healing is not just I am a man of the government. The healing is divisions that took place within families. I mean, there is a really good scene in Born on the Fourth of July, where Tom Cruise comes home in a wheelchair, and one of the sister’s whispers in his ear about the brother. He is against the war, and Tom Cruise says this is before his conversion as Ron Covack to the activist Tom Cruise says, "Love it or leave it. Danny, love it or leave it." And that is a-and that that was something that internally had to be dealt with. And I do not think it ever was. Like to a lot of people, the wall means a different thing. To me, it is just like I can still see my father standing at the top of the stairs when I was just, I was of the opinion, then maybe, you know, just for five seconds I thought, well, maybe I will go to Canada. I knew I would not do that because I knew I could not work in this opinion; I could not work in this field if I did. But he said, well, then get out now, because I will not harbor a federal fugi-fugitive because of you. If you do not answer your draft induction, you are a fugitive, and I do not want you in the house. And that is the only time in my life which was full of ups and downs that my father ever said if that is what you are going to do, get out.

SM: 42:18
Yeah, um-

WK: 42:19
The healing very much is internal. Um, the healing is most importantly now, what do you say to 60,000 families?

SM: 42:27
76 million people were boomers.

WK: 42:30
You know? What do you say? I mean, what do you say? And, and what about the guilt of US college grads who got to go to college? You know? Because basically, it was a poor, white and black kids war that is who was in the front line, and the college brats were not in the front line unless they were lucky enough to be in ROTC. And what they would do is, once they got their orders from ROTC, they take them, they came in the front line, and they come back in a body bag, 28 days later.

SM: 42:53
This gets into the fact that people have written that 15 percent of boomers are truly active that were against war, gun violence protest, gun violence on movement, uh, so forth. They could be conservative or liberals, but they were activists during that time frame.

WK: 43:08
I was never in, I was never in STS, um-

SM: 43:10
But you went to protest them.

WK: 43:13
I-I did. Earth Day.

SM: 43:14
So, they were not part of that.

WK: 43:16
Anti-war protest, absolutely. Um, Civil rights protest, absolutely. Um, and proud to have been part of all of it.

SM: 43:26
It gets it gets into the real question of experience. And I may have mentioned this prior to, uh, setting up this interview, and that is, we took students to meet Edmund Muskie, and we had that time to meet with him. He had just gotten out of the hospital. And had a time to reflect on watching Ken Burns Civil War series. And somehow, in some way, when I asked this question to him about the lack of trust that the generation had in elected leaders and one in 1968 and we got into the whole issue of healing, and how many boomers do not trust their bosses still, as they have gotten older, it is this lack of trust mentality. He almost broke down and crying. He said, uh, I am going to basically say that we really have not healed since the Civil War. And he started talking about the Civil War generation going to their graves with bitterness for the other side. And then that threw a flame in me about the fact is, are the 76 million boomers, many have gone out and raised kids, had families, but they are all aging. Are they going to go to their graves with the same feelings that many of the Civil War generation had- was still the bitterness, um, lack of healing from within and-and some might say, “Who cares?” You know, you cannot heal for whole generation, but-

WK: 44:29
There is a huge difference, though, you just put your finger on. He said that. He said that many of the people, many of the Civil War veterans, went to their graves with a bitterness, to the other to the other side. I-I worked in Atlanta, and, and I-I-I have said many times that I if I did not know any better, I would have thought that general Sherman's first name was "that damn", because that is what people would say, that damn Sherman. Uh, big difference, though, a very curious thing has happened with-with the Vietnam veteran. The Vietnam veteran is mad at the United States, he was mad at the VA, uh, he was mad at the army or navy or whatever service he was in. But what is very interesting is he is not mad at Vietnam anymore. He is not mad at the North Vietnamese. I cannot tell you the number of stories that I have seen about guys who have gone back and have broken bread with guys that, that they-they were their former prisoners or that kind of thing. They are a very curious thing has happened. We are not mad at them. We just, we just established, uh, with virtually no press at all. No press, uh, negative press at all. We just reestablished diplomatic relations with Vietnam. Our ambassador to Vietnam is a former Peoria.

SM: 44:35
Mhm. Right-right.

WK: 44:35
So, what is, what is confounding to me, and what is fascinating to me is the healing is all here. The healing in-in terms of being angry at the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese, I think the average person now says, “Okay, well, they are communist, and it is not our form of government.” And obviously, if you look around the world, it is, it is a form of government that is dying out. But nevertheless, their country, it is their goddamn country. I mean, how would we feel if Vietnamese showed up in Missouri?

SM: 44:35
Mhm.

WK: 44:47
You know? And how would we have felt if the North Vietnamese showed up to help this out? I mean, because that is what it was. So, what is interesting is the healing is-is virtually all internal. I have never been to the wall. I have driven by it, and when my time comes, I want to be there alone. Wow, I just do. I just want to be there alone, and, uh, because it is a very personal thing, and the war took its toll on every American family in different ways. And my mother would tell you that it is through God's goodness and mercy that neither of her sons got sent over there, and she may very well be right. But at the same time, we-we were, like everybody else, negatively affected by this debacle, wrapping itself in the flag, which I really, really, really mix in with his little American flag bow tie or, or, uh, lapel, you know, and with his you know. Now, all of all of his boys are best-selling authors, you know, but, uh, they in, in some of the dialog that was spoken in that Oval Office, which belongs to everybody, by the way, which, uh, Haldeman and Erin Lichtman and Dean seemed to forget for quite some time. You know, it was the end. All of us were the, you know, the kids and the commies and the commie you know, the commie influence and all that other stuff. And, uh, you know, Nixon, Nixon's kid did not go, at least. You got to say one thing for LBJ. LBJ is boys both went.

SM: 48:01
That is right.

WK: 48:03
Chuck Robb and Pat Nugent both went. Nixon's. You think Nixon's sons in law went, hell no. David Eisenhower, who I have an immense amount of respect for has got one of the great minds about history and is a delightful chap. He did not go.

SM: 48:19
He served, but I think he was in the military.

WK: 48:22
I do not even think, no, no, no, no, no [talking over each other] Really, whatever. And, and Eddie Cox was a Wall Street lawyer. Forget it. You know, we are real good at sending other people's kids to die.

SM: 48:36
I guess. [mic noise]

WK: 48:42
You know, maybe we are under underselling the value of Nixon. Nixon painted the picture to everybody who was over 35 and told them exactly what they wanted to hear. In that sense, he was not very different than Reagan, where the, the major difference between Nixon and Reagan- [intercom interruption]- realistically speaking, Nixon probably accomplished a hell a lot more than Reagan did. But the major difference between Reagan a-and Nixon is, is that, and it should not be important, but it is the personality, the warmth that the, um, you know, you just had a feeling with-with Reagan, that he was like, your father, you know, Nixon was like this guy. Nixon was like this annoying neighbor that you knew that he was right, but you just wish he would go away. And then after a while, you found out the guy was lying. And how typical of Nixon, how very typical of Nixon when presented with the facts of the Watergate burglary, which I do believe he knew nothing about until it was done, how very typical of Nixon to instead of just saying, guys, boy, did we blow it, I am going on TV tonight, and I am telling the American people that these people are associated with the Republican National Committee, and they are all fired, and we will not support them in any way, shape or form. They broke the law. And, you know, we win our elections fair and square. Would have been a one-night story. How typical of Nixon to turn it into a disaster. You know, to lie, to cheat, steal. You know.

SM: 50:23
When you look at again at the boomers, uh, just you had had made a reference early on to the, uh, impact boomers had with respect to the civil rights movement. But, uh, your thoughts on how important the college students were in the protests on college campus with ending the war. I-I say this only in reference to an interview I had with Jack Smith, who said college students really did not have that much of an impact. The impact really took place when the body base came home and Middle America saw that the war had end. But, um, your thoughts on that at 15 percent of activists who were protesting the war and how much of an importance they were to ending it?

WK: 50:58
Well, they were an ever-present force. Uh, I think that Jack's right. I think that, um, when there were several pivotal things in ending the war, uh, first of all, I do not think that one can underestimate the tremendous potency of Walter Cronkite in the 1960s, um, you know TV now you have got ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, um, CNN. In most homes, you had either Walter Cronkite or Huntley and Brinkley, but most homes, it was Walter Cronkite that certainly was ours. When W-Walter Cronkite made two visits to Vietnam, one of the early (19)60s and one in 1968 when Walter Cronkite came back in 1968 and basically opinionated that we do not know. I am not sure we are doing the right thing. Johnson said, Johnson said, that is the election. I am going to get beat. That is why he withdrew. Um, So I-I think that, um, the evening news stopped the Vietnam War. Now what portion of the evening news you choose to select as being responsible for that is up to you. I think that Jack Smith is right. Jack Smith's a veteran. Jack Smith is also a news man. And I think that, yeah, the, the nightly body count after a while, you would say, oh, well, you know the body count today was, we killed 5000 Vietnamese and only 300 Americans died. Well, more and more and more those 300 Americans were s-starting to show up on TV. We would see their bodies being carried off the airplanes. We would see their grieving families at the funerals. And more and more it came home, and more and more kids from more and more neighborhoods were coming back in those body bags. So yeah, Jack is, Jack is right in that sense, but I-I-I differ with him in the sense that the college thing was ever present. It was constant. It was there. I mean, I remember Northwestern University, which is like the bastion of Republican capitalism, Evanston, Illinois, um, was shut down. The main road, main road that goes through Northwestern University, of Sheridan Road was shut down right after Kent State, and there was a huge sign up over Sheridan Road that said something to the effect that, you know, go make your millions downtown, but remember the remember the kid, kids who died for-for the freedom of expression, and Kent State, I think, was when everybody started to say, Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Because I know even that-that is my parents said, “Wait a minute. They are shooting college students, unarmed college students. Come on.” And so, I think, I think Jack is right, that it, it was the daily procession of body bags, and it was the daily and also it was the daily student demonstrations. But I think that that the point at which this the war, any popularity of the war sunk to new levels was Kent State. When Kent-Kent State happened, that was it. Every American parent who had a kid off at college said that could be my kid, because they were just protesting the war.

SM: 54:03
What, um, if there was a moment in your life, the most important moment in your life of, of this period, what was the what was the event? And now you are talking about your high school years and your college years and maybe your early adulthood years, but if there was one specific event that you could pinpoint and said, even to this day, it is hard. You might think about it. Uh, we might think about it every day, but it is one thing that you will never forget that had tremendous influence on your life. What was the event of that period?

WK: 54:31
Chicago in 1968. Lived there, uh, at the time, I was working for a TV station there, uh, I saw these massive crowds. Uh, there was Civil War. It was Hubert Humphrey up in his suite at the Conrad Hilton kissing the TV, um, screen when they showed a picture of his wife, and it was, um, under educated under trained, overworked Chicago police officers’ downstairs who had been put on edge and on alert by the mayor, who had promised that, uh, by God, this convention was, um, going, to be orderly, and, uh it was that powder keg. And, uh, I-I am not sure, even though Humphrey lost, I-I am not sure that, uh, there is any one event in my mind that-that more closely illustrates what, what a near civil war there was, although Nixon exacerbated it, it was there already. Many of the protesters had come for the sure hell of it. I mean, many of them had come to, uh a-and I must say, l-let me play amateur psychologist for a second. I do not think it is an accident that the kids who were protesting the war were the same kids- He just won't answer that page.

SM: 56:09
Mind if I [inaudible]

WK: 56:12
No-no-no, I cannot, yes, I can, because you remember it too, but I cannot tell you how the life force was sucked out of an entire generation of young people on November the 22nd of 1963. This guy hit, and this is way, way, way before all this stuff about his mistresses and his ties to the mob and all this other stuff. I mean, think back to 1963, this guy was our hero. He was a war hero. He was good looking, he was charismatic, he was funny, he was witty, he was he, um, we know now that that even though he bumbled his way through, you know, the first couple, the first year or so, that he actually became quite an astute, uh, President toward the tail end of his, his presidency. Uh, through-through sheer dumb luck and determination, he, um, he capably handled the Cuban Missile Crisis, and at the time in which he was killed, his popularity was just through the ceiling. The thing that was unique about him was the fact that he was so appealing to young people because Ike was like your grandfather. Ike was this bald guy who won the war. We were not alive for the war, so thanks Ike for winning the war and keeping us from speaking German. Um, but Ike was and Ike was, I-I think history is judged. Ike was just a real mediocre president. Um, he was okay, but he was not great. Ike lied. Ike lied about the you too.

SM: 57:42
That is right.

WK: 57:43
But Ike was like somebody. Ike was your father's president. Jack Kennedy was our president. And when that life ended, I think for many, many, many of us, there was a need to express just the outrage, the anger. Um, we did it in good ways. Um, for example, I think that, that it is no accident that, that Jack Kennedy dies in November of 1963 in January and February of 1964 Th-The Beatles come to the United States of America, and in the phenomenon that nobody has ever seen before or since, just totally mesmerize American youth, because basically and, and take them out of their intense grief over the loss of this, of this guy that we love, and allow us to-to live, to have fun, because they were so fun and they were so funny. And so-s-so very talented. And we were influenced by their music, because their music transcended just it went from-from silly love songs to really, you know, to meaningful stuff. And they just, they wrote all kinds of new chapters about music and everything. And we were with them every step of their way. So, then we get to 1968 and in an April, Dr. King is killed, and which is, you know, a kick, kick in the face to every, not only every African American, but-but every American. And two months later, two, three months later, Bobby Kennedy's killed. So, with that as a background, the Convention was in August. Bobby Kennedy died June 4, and we had hoped that he would be elected, that he would, um, be a suitable replacement for his brother. He seemed to have almost, not quite, almost, the qualities of Jack. Nobody had the qualities of Jack, but he was a pretty good substitute. And, um, then he was assassinated. And so, by the time that convention rolled around, those kids were angry. Those kids were angry because basically, as the line went, all the good ones are gone. They kill all the good ones. And it seemed, and it seemed to be true. And so, they would shove people like Hubert Humphrey down our throats, or Richard Nixon. They would take all these old guys, and they would shove them down our throats and say, a-and there was no choice there. I mean, it was just like, you know, all these old farts and no, and nobody was saying, you know, Richard Nixon was saying he had a secret plan to stop the Vietnam War, which was such a secret, he kept it a secret for six years.

SM: 1:00:15
[chuckling] Sure.

WK: 1:00:16
Um, so I-I think you cannot talk about the boomer generation without talking about, in my opinion, the most significant besides the Vietnam War itself, the most significant disaster to the boomer generation was, uh, the assassination of Kennedy.

SM: 1:00:33
You think today's young people when we say, uh, Ike was my father's president, today's young people say, well, JFK was your president, so I will say the same thing.

WK: 1:00:43
Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.

SM: 1:00:44
So, so it has no linkage at all.

WK: 1:00:46
Well, yeah, but see, it gets back to the trust thing. It gets back to the trust thing because they, they cannot look at Bill Clinton and say “He is mine.” I mean, he can be on MTV from now until the cows come home, and he can he has a full head of gray hair, and he has got a teenage daughter, and he is the first baby boomer president and all that other stuff. And young people can say, well, he is my president, but you know what? They do not. They do not like him. I mean, they like him compared to the other old farts. I mean, compared to Bob Dole.

SM: 1:01:12
[laughing]

WK: 1:01:13
But-but you do not hear kids. You do not hear young people talking about Bill Clinton the way we talked about Kennedy. Um, he may be able to relate to young people, but basically, I think that people, young and old see him as kind of a cynical politician who will say anything to get elected, and now he is okay. I mean, he is enjoying, I mean, we are all enjoying this tremendous crest of, uh, of prosperity and-a-and I would think that he has got to have something to do with it, but the fact of the matter is, he is certainly no hero to the young the way Kennedy was to us. Um, and, and the Kennedy assassination cannot be underplayed as a pivotal, integral thing in forming what is called the boomer Generation, probably the first of, uh, the first leg of, of the table, I would say, um, you know, there was, there were the assassinations, starting with John. There was the Civil Rights Movement. And there was Vietnam.

SM: 1:02:15
This gets right into the next question [inaudible mumbling], how much more time do we have, we okay, yeah?

WK: 1:02:22
15 minutes or so.

SM: 1:02:23
Okay, um, [inaudible] just take a pause here [talking over each other]. Yep.

WK: 1:02:34
Set the course for future events and for the calamity that was to become the (19)60s. No doubt about it. No doubt about it. In the fact that most people look at the Warren report is, is fiction just exacerbates it. I mean, who killed him is really secondary, the fact that he was-

SM: 1:02:55
got very general but you have heard this before in the best history books are written 25 to 50 years from now. What would be the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? In your thoughts, what is the lasting legacy? And how will historians treat us knowing that the best histories are 50 years after an event has taken place?

WK: 1:03:14
Oh, I think they are probably they will look at it, look at us as intrinsically selfish because we did not win any wars, um, you know, we did not build the atom bomb, we did not build Empire State Buildings. Um, you know, basically all we did was we caused a hell of a lot of trouble and a lot of rockets in the 1960s and then we all became filthy rich in the 1980s under Reagan. Um, and I think that that would be a tremendous disservice to, uh, an entire generation of young men and women. Um, first of all, I think that there were a lot of people like me. We have either grandparents or great grandparents who came over from the old country. All of our parents, the single defining moment of their life was World War Two. For many of our parents, the second most defining moment of their life was, uh, the depression. So, these are people who knew hard times. Most of us did not know hard times. So, when you are worried about how you are going to feed your family? You do not have the luxury of worrying about whether or not a little a little black girl can drink out of a water fountain in Birmingham, Alabama. Once those needs were met, once the war was won, once America became prosperous, we had a relatively quiet period of time. You know, we went. We went basically 10-12, years with-with nothing other than the constant gnawing threat of the so-called Cold War, which at times would eat up, but basically i-it was just, it was just that it was a cold war. So, then we come along and, I-I swear, Steve, I-I think chapter one in this book is JFK's killing that is slapped every [inaudible intercom] every kid in America, and we became, then, at that point, more than just passive observers. And as, as things heated up and as we went to college, and colleges should be a bastion for activism, there has got to be a bastion for activism. I remember very clearly when I was emceeing that this very subject at West Chester, how most of the professors who were boomers, who are our age, were talking about. Well, it is not my job to get you a job. My job is to expand your mind. My job is to present some idealism. My job is to-to let you know, you know that once upon a time in the civil rights movement, you know, we were here, and now we are here, and in the women's studies movement, you know, this is where we were, and this is where we are, and they were all kind of lofty idealists from the 1960s while I understood perfectly what they were saying, I could not help but notice there was an enormous amount of anger in this, in the auditorium of kids saying, screw you! I do not know how to run a computer, [laughter] you know. O-or I do not have a job yet, you know. So, so take your (19)60s and stick it, because I do not have a job so and-and of course, they are all tenured professors, so they do not have to worry about a job for the rest of their life. There has got to be a place. There has got to be a safe place. And this is why I feel personally, and this is off the record. This is why I feel so sad about my son, because-

SM: 1:06:39
Mhm.

WK: 1:06:41
-we were also, you know, you talk about the college campuses a-as a as a nest of rebellion, we were really also the first generation of Americans who went to college. I mean, our parents, our parents really did not go to college. I mean, I-I am fortunate in the fact that both of my parents did. But I think if you take the average person, um, the average person did not go, I mean, you went to high school, and you went out and worked, and, um, most of our fathers came home from World War Two, and many, many of them, my own, included, like did a master's. When he went in, came back, got a second master's, and then got his doctorate. Um, many of them had gotten their butt kicked enough in the service to know that basically, the only true vehicle for success and the only true vehicle for getting out was, uh, education. So, but there has got to be a safe place for young people to express idea ideas, no matter how radical they are. Um, and, and the college campuses, obviously, I mean, not every campus was Berkeley, but [stuttering] and ironically enough, a lot of people would say that Kent State was not that radical of a school at all.

SM: 1:06:54
Yeah. It is a very conservative school.

WK: 1:07:42
Yeah.

SM: 1:07:43
Most of the, everybody was surprised that that is where it hit-

WK: 1:07:54
Yeah.

SM: 1:07:55
-knowing th-that in Ohio, Ohio University was the most liberal of the colleges at that time that had the greatest problems, because I worked at OU, um, in the mid (19)70s, and Ron Kovack was actually kicked off the campus, and actually was arrested in Athens when he came there, and Vietnam Veterans Against the War and, uh, and then, of course, Ohio State was, geez, they had tremendous turmoil. So, Kent State was the big surprise that happened there. But he thought if it hit, if it had happened, it would have happened at OU or, um Ohio State University, because, they, they were, uh, hotbeds of turmoil.

WK: 1:08:26
But I think that history may judge us as selfish. Um, history may judge us as, as not as altruistic as the current generation. And I think that there might be some degree of accuracy today. Uh, history may judge us as, I think, uh, as non-spiritual, and I think that there is also a degree of accuracy there.

SM: 1:08:43
Have, have boomers carried their passion? Have boomers, I mean we are talking 15 percent of that active, and then, uh, 85 have the boomers carried the passion that was supposedly their-their most, best quality they possess?

WK: 1:09:00
No, but I do not know w-whether that says [intercom] I do not know whether that is a function of the baby boomers being a disappointing generation, or whether that is just a function of age. Um, we are all very different and very different at 48 than I was at 18. You know, I have lived my life 30 years, and, um, I have actually been known to on rare occasions, vote for a Republican. Um-

SM: 1:09:25
I am shocked.

WK: 1:09:25
Yeah, well,

WK: 1:09:26
I do not admit it to too many people, but, no, I-I mean, I vote for the person. I-I just [inaudible] I am, I-I guess one of the things that I carry over from the (19)60s is I-I am an independent. I cannot vote in primaries because I am I am registered as an independent. Um, but I think that probably people would say we, we got to the 80s, we made our money, we sold out. Um, a-and probably now the only way in which the true, the true dipstick of, of telling whether or not we had any effect is basically the way our children turn out. I am proud, proudest of my children, because I know that they would never, I know that all the "isms" are things that are not in their vocabulary. They will not be sexist, they will not be racist, they will not be in any way, shape or form, do anything to hurt another human being, um, just for the hell of it, or because it makes their life easier.

SM: 1:09:26
[laughing]

WK: 1:10:16
Yes, she does, yeah.

SM: 1:10:16
Uh, last question before I give them just some general names for your responses and we will close the interview, and that is this issue of empowerment. Um, most students when they come to college, even today, when I was, uh, young and when you were young, hopefully, one of the goals is developing self-esteem in young people. That they have self-esteem they go on the world knowing that they can speak up if they see something wrong, like you already mentioned, your daughter does. Obviously, she has self-esteem. But, but the quality that a lot of young people do not have, and that is one of the goals of higher education, is not only preparing them for the world out there, hopefully they will continue to want to learn beyond, uh, just what they learn in the classroom, and that they have self-esteem and will be, uh, willing to speak their minds when the time comes forth. So, the question I am asking you is this: empowerment was a very important, um, adjective characteristics of the boomers. They felt empowered. Many of them did because they protested the war, they got involved in civil rights movement. And yes, many of them really bugged a lot of people. They, uh, a lot of us did it just for the sake of doing it. But there were a lot of since- there is a lot of sincerity there, even Vietnam veterans will say that, uh, if they, they are not so much upset with the people who were sincerely against the war. It is those people that tried to evade the draft and did all these other things, but there were sincere people out there. Empowerment. Has that concept of empowerment carried on into the boomer’s life as they have gotten older? In other words, they continue to speak up. And has that been transferred into their children, this sense of empowerment?

WK: 1:11:40
Let me go back to Dr. Spock. Um, the, the pervading sentiment when- if you are a boomer, you grew up in the 1950s in the early 60s, the worst thing that you could do as a parent is to have a kid with a big head. The worst thing that you could do is have your kid be, uh, arrogant or conceited, or think that he or she was too good. So especially i-in-in coming from a Catholic school background, uh, if you did something, well, it was if it was acknowledged, it was acknowledged minimally. Um, you would look a-at my family, for example, and you would say, of the four of us, we have all done very well in our chosen careers. Uh, and you would say, gee whiz, well, your parents must have, have put you out in the world with a really good feeling about yourself. And I would say that is just simply not the case, um, nor is it the case of virtually anybody I know. Because I think that the responsible parent in 1958 or 59 was thinking that, basically, I do not want Johnny to have a big head. I want, I want to be able to control my kid. Um, I think, obviously, on some level, my family and every other family felt that they had if I work hard enough. I mean, one thing that we got from our parents was this idea the work ethic. I mean, success is 99 percent perspiration, 1 percent inspiration. I think that that came from our families. But I know very few people who were born and raised in the 1940s and 50s and 60s who came out of their family experience really feeling great about themselves. And I think a lot of what happened in college was, first of all, no more rules. Um, I mean, you had to show up for class. Uh, you were introduced to liberal thinkers in the in the person of many of the professors who taught us the classes. You were introduced to other kids who, um, it, it, it just was not high school anymore. But I think that there is a real it is a real misnomer to think that we were, that we came into the college world arrogant. I think that we all came into college world very frightened. And I think that we drew, we drew upon one another for our strength, and only in I mean, I-I went to college. First two years of college, I went to a city college, Chicago City College, and I began very quickly became act-active as Student Government, and it was in in being active with student government, I felt sensational about myself, probably for the first time in my life, because I was, uh, you know, when i-in grade school, in high school, I was usually, you know, in trouble for this, that or the other thing, little petty stuff, but-but-but never, you know, they could never this student leader that I was not college, and I felt terrific about myself. And I felt not only terrific about myself because I was student government officer, but I felt terrific about myself because of the people that I was with and the power that they gave me, and we all empowered one another. Then when I left the city college, which is a much more transient atmosphere for a permanent four-year institution, I was there, I-I felt good. The thing that really put me over the top, though, was getting my first job when I was working in this industry. Then I felt okay, I have arrived. But I think it is real misnomer to think that people went to college with-with big egos. I think that is nonsense. I think I think we drew upon each other's strength, and I think that if somebody said, hey, wait a minute. Look at this idiot, Bull Connor with these fire hoses, shooting these, you know, shooting these poor, you know, black protesters down in Birmingham. I think that if it came from our parents, it was one thing. If it came from another kid in the dorm, it was a whole other thing, then it really meant something. So, I-I do not think, I think, quite frankly, one of the je- one of the major, uh, one of the major shortcomings of the World War Two generation is the idea that, that, uh, oh, you do not want your kid to have a big head. Um, I think kids with big heads do not have problems. Kids with big heads do not wind up on-on psychiatrist couches. Um-

SM: 1:15:40
That whole it is like trying to discuss ego, or that whole period couple years back, when they are talking about folks are coming out about if you have too much ego, that is bad. And, you know, it is like, well, you got to have ego, because that is confidence in yourself.

WK: 1:15:53
Yeah, so much ego, it is not bad. There, there are people who, deep down inside, hate themselves, but they put on this arrogant, t-this kind of sachet of arrogance, um, because they are covering up for a deep-seated inferiority complex. There is a very different it is a whole different thing. I mean, even Christian teaching. I mean even if you and, and, and Christ has been so maligned and so-so misquoted, or, or the ideas that he espoused are so misquoted, um, if you looked at, at the heart of the Christian teaching, I mean, you know, um, Christ said, love one another as you love yourself. And, um, so I-I think that-that is a tremen- I think that is a tremendous misnomer, you know that these kids were all just arrogant kids looking for a place to hang out.

SM: 1:16:39
I am going to ask, uh, this question here, which is basically throwing out some names. Just get your initial [shuffling sound] response to them, whether [intercom interruption], uh, just your thoughts on them and, uh whether they were impactful on uh-

WK: 1:16:55
Mhm.

SM: 1:16:55
America. First two, obviously Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden.

WK: 1:16:59
Uh, Fonda, in the sense that she even to the people who are against the war, I think she crossed the line. When she got on, uh, Hanoi radio, there was a sense, even within the anti-war movement, I think that there was a sense of right and wrong. And I think that, that when she went on radio Hanoi and urged American soldiers to give up. I think that there was a sense that she, she had really crossed a line, um, and that she has not redeemed herself with her spelled body and her tremendous, um, workout stuff and [stuttering] punishment of all punishments, marrying Ted Turner. But I think that realistically speaking, I think th-that she, she, um, she crossed a line, I think with Hayden. Hayden's a really bright guy. Um, Hayden, Hayden, Ruben, all the guys who in, in the, uh leadership of the movement, I-I do not think that they ever had the mainstream college kids. I think they made, there was a lot of smoke and mirrors, but, uh, Hayden, I think, has made a significant contribution. [intercom interruption] As a, you know, as a California legislator, and, and, and to this day, you got to give the guy credit him and he still activist. He is still a liberal. He is still getting his ears pinned in you know, Richard Rierden, I guess, just kicked his butt in the election, or was about to kick his butt in the election, but, but [intercom interruption] Hayden di-did not become, uh, um, Jerry Rubin. Hayden never became a stock broker.

SM: 1:18:27
Yeah, that goes right into the next two, which is Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman. And I-I prefaced the Abbie Hoffman question by well aware that he killed himself several years back over in Bucks County. Yeah, manic depressive. He had $2,500 in the bank, [chuckling, stuttering] the social media said he had given all this money away to causes yet, and he had written a note on his deathbed that basically stated that no one is listening to me anymore, so I am not going to live anymore. And so-

WK: 1:18:40
Oh, he was a manic depressive. I do not think anybody listened to him in the first place. I think he was the clown prince of the movement. Um, He was, I-I do not think that people said, well, what does Abby say? I think that people were much more in tune with Ruben and with some of the other people who are more serious than that. No, Abby was the outrageous guy, Abby was the guy who wrote the book, steal this book. I mean, Abby, Abby was every movement must have its clown prince, and Abby was the clown prince of the anti-war movement.

SM: 1:19:15
But do you think, and before we get the next names here, that there are many boomers that may have continued to keep their idealism as they got older and whatever field they went into, and then, though they see that, even though he may have been the clown prince or whatever perceptions might be, that, wait a minute, today's college students are not listening or care as much about civil rights issues and racism and so forth as we did - the passion again -

WK: 1:19:37
Because they think it is done.

SM: 1:19:39
Yeah, they think it is done, or all- how about some of the other issues that so no one is listening anymore, and we are, we are getting older, and we are going to pass on and so they are going to be raising their kids in a couple years. So that, that, you know, I-I only saw that article, not so much caring about Abby Hoffman as I did. Was that symbolic of many boomers and their attitudes as they are approaching 50?

WK: 1:19:58
No, because I think that he was caught in a time warp. Um, you find, I think that you find that with a lot of people, you find that with a lot of actors, for example, that th-they, they do one thing and they do one thing well, and when they are asked to show some versatility, they just cannot do it. So, I think that in every offense case, Abby was reliving the (19)60s, even though it was the (19)90s. And I think that he was really kind of caught in a time warp, um, you know, Hayden's, I mean, you have to give Hayden credit, at least for changing over the times. But he is still dedicated to, you know, mostly liberal environmental type causes.

SM: 1:20:21
Uh, some of the Presidents, um, just, just give real quick commentary on Lyndon Johnson, John Kennedy, Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford, just, just some brief thoughts on all four of them.

WK: 1:20:38
Okay, well, Lyndon Johnson was the guy who put the pedal to the metal about Vietnam. I mean, history has shown him. Um, Lyndon Johnson was, as most men are, a real paradox. Um, he was enormously skilled at playing the political game. It was Lyndon Johnson. [intercom interruption] It was Lyndon Johnson who got through most of John Kennedy's legislation. Posthumously. Uh, it was Lyndon Johnson who put through the, um, Civil Rights Bill, which had just been in the planning stages when Kennedy was assassinated. Um, it was also Lyndon Johnson who, b-before John Kennedy's body was in the ground, the night of Kennedy's assassination in the White House, called together the Joint Chiefs of S-Staff and said, boys, get ready, because we are going to step things up in Vietnam. Um, I think Lyndon Johnson was the was the quintessential southern politician. Uh, did it well, uh, realized by the time he died that the Vietnam had been a huge mistake.

SM: 1:21:35
Kennedy and, uh, Richard Nixon?

WK: 1:21:36
Y-you know, John Kennedy, this is, this is 1963 versus 1997 when we know, you know, he was a man of tremendous flaws and had an eye for women, um, I-I think he was idealism personified. I think that he was the first person to actively reach out to young people, including those who were even too young to vote. Uh, he was the fi-first person to, uh, bring up the, the notion of, uh, things like the Peace Corps of, uh, of government is what you make it, um, and you must make it. And everybody has an obligation. And not just the you know, not just what they told you the draft board that you got an obligation to serve. Kennedy said you got an obligation to, to serve and to give back. And I think that, I think the fact that he came from so much wealth and power added credence to his argument. Uh, and as I said, and I cannot underestimate this enough, I think that his assassination was the pivotal turning point in the 1960s I think that day came and we just went in a whole different direction than we would have gone had he had lived.

SM: 1:22:40
Nixon and Ford.

WK: 1:22:42
Nixon probably will go down as the most paradoxical of presidents of modern times. Um, you know, ultimately, ultimately getting a peace in Vietnam, ultimately opening up relationships with China, uh, ultimately, I mean, bussing was actually Nixon. Nixon, it was the Nixon administration that proposed bussing is an equitable solution to-to, uh, racial disharmony. Um, but you cannot divorce yourself in the end. And I think that the man was, uh, a very complex, very untrusting, um, very, very paranoid guy who was a real ultimately, toward the end, was a real, dangerous guy. Uh, Jerry Ford, [stuttering] not to use the- to abuse the analogy, but Jerry Ford is the second-string quarterback. Jerry Ford was the guy that you call him when your first-string quarterback just broke his arm. Um, a decent, honorable man who had represented the conservative Grand Rapids, Michigan district quite well for quite some time, um, who, under the circumstances, made a, uh, made a noble attempt at healing, and I think, did okay. Um, pardoning Nixon caused him the election, and it should have.

SM: 1:24:06
The, uh, some of the civil rights leaders you made reference to how important Dr. King was in, in your life, but your thoughts on Dr. King and the Black Power advocates, Huey Newton's Eldridge cleavers-

WK: 1:24:17
See the problem with Dr. King? The problem with Dr. King is not unlike the problem with Nixon and Ford, um, that you have got a real strong number one and there is, there is really no clearly designated number two. I mean, in Atlanta, I got to know a lot more about Dr. Abernathy, and Ralph Abernathy was a good guy, and it was really unfortunate that toward the end of his life, he saw fit to, uh, in his memoirs make some reference to Dr. King's supposed infidelity, which I thought is- was a cheap shot, and, and un-un-unlike the class that Dr. Abernathy usually showed. But the problem is that, you know, there are damn few Martin Luther Kings, um, and, and Ralph Abernathy certainly was not one of them, and I do not think that Jesse Jackson, at that particular point had the wisdom, uh, or the maturity to take over the mantle of, uh, the movement. I was disappointed, frankly, getting to know Andrew Young, uh, and what a magnificent man he is. Uh, Andrew Young could have stepped in and taken over, if the movement had not fallen into-into disarray. It is too bad that he was not clearly designated number two, because I think that Andrew Young was and is uh, uh, a very, very special human being.

SM: 1:25:37
Black Power advocates?

WK: 1:25:42
You know, Dr. King used to always say, you know, peace through non-violence. But I sometimes wonder if a lot of that civil rights legislation and a lot of that, uh, housing for people, and the things, the kinds of things that the Black Panthers were providing, would have been provided if it were not for the Black Panthers. Uh, in Chicago, uh, Mark Clark and Freddy Hampton were two black panthers, two of the leaders of the movement, and they were shot. They were shot to death, and they were slaughtered. And every piece of forensic evidence indicates that, uh, that is what happened. I mean, they did not. They were not reaching for guns. They were one of them was nude. They were both asleep, and there was a sheriff's raid at four o'clock in the morning, and both these guys were slaughtered. I think the black the black panthers, had a lot going for them, um, and they certainly lit a fire under Congress's tail to do something about some of the problems that they were addressing. Um, Eldridge Cleaver turned out to be a real disappointment because of his skirmishes with the law. Shooting judges, raping women, um, is not the way to empower oneself. Um, but I think that many of the goals of the black peace tone nation were, were commendable, and I think that in many ways they, um, just as the Muslim, uh, nation does now, meets very real and very fundamental goals. So, the very real and fundamental needs of the of the minority community.

SM: 1:27:10
Goes right into Malcolm X, died in (19)65.

WK: 1:27:17
Well, Malcolm X is, is a fascinating man, because, like so many other great men, he was not born to greatness, but, um, obviously as a person, as a Caucasian person, it is easy for me to say, well, the thing I really respect the most about Malcolm X is that after his pilgrimage to Mecca, he chose to see that Islam and, and Allah is color blind, and that all men and women of good faith who follow the Will of what he referred to as Allah, as we-we would call God. Uh, all-all of us are God's children, and that that espousing that philosophy ultimately probably cost him his life. Um, I think Malcolm X is one of the most important African and probably next to Dr. King is probably the most important African American of the 20th century in terms of leaders of their people.

SM: 1:28:06
Timothy Leary, Ralph Nader, and again, I am picking these names out because they were of the time.

WK: 1:28:11
Timothy Leary, too-too kooky to be mainstream. Tune in, uh, turn and drop out, too kooky to be mainstream. Uh, Ralph Nader, um, an interesting growth out of the 1960s basically, um, you know, General Motors spent 1000s and 1000s of dollars trying to, to get something on this guy, you know, find an old girlfriend, or find, you know, did he pay his taxes? Or, you know, do something to besmirch him. And he was totally, completely beyond reproach, um, and, and was squeaky, squeaky clean. And I think that consumerism was in the consumer movement was an interesting offshoot of the 1960s, um, that we were not going to take the same we were not going to buy cars that, that were bad cars, you know, and we were not going to buy appliances that would fall apart. Um, an interesting offshoot of the (19)60s, no more than that.

SM: 1:29:03
How about, uh, George Wallace, and I am just mentioning the Hubert Humphrey and Barry Goldwater.

WK: 1:29:09
Okay, George Wallace, uh, typical southern governor, just more of a loud mouth. Uh, his metamorphosis as a human being has been interesting to watch. Barry Goldwater was scary. He was a scary dude. He was a scary guy. Uh, I know he was the grand old statesman of Republican politics, but he was talking about dealing with Vietnam War in terms of using nuclear weapons. And that, to me, is scary. And, uh, it was, I was delighted to see LBJ win that one, um, as matter of fact, was working in the Young Democrats at the time, um, and who was the third one?

SM: 1:29:43
Hubert Humphrey.

WK: 1:29:45
You know, Hubert Humphrey and LBJ are almost interchangeable. Hubert Humphrey was, was an old Senate hand from the, uh, from Minneapolis who was a halfway decent vice president, but probably would have been a real mediocre president, but God compared to Nixon. I, uh, I do not know. We will never know. He did not win. So, Spear Wagner. Spiro Wagner was one of the most polarizing forces in America 19- in the in the 20th century, um, the, the spearhead of Nixon's attack against young people. Uh, A real, real, real scary guy, probably the scariest guy in the Nixon administration, be-because he was the one who forced older people to say, you were there with us or against us. Nixon did not do it as much as Agnew did.

SM: 1:30:28
Muhammad Ali.

WK: 1:30:30
Um, entertainer, um certainly one of the one of the preeminent figures, that of the of the 19-1960s but, uh, in terms of his lasting impact on culture, I do not think he has much. Entertainer. A magnificent boxer, um, an interesting, interesting, interesting man, probably, certainly the most interesting man that ever fought. But that is not saying a lot.

SM: 1:30:58
Some of the women leaders, Gloria Steinem and, uh, Betty Friedan.

WK: 1:30:58
You have to understand the women's movement, and I say this basically, having grown up in the Midwest and having lived in the South for five years, the women's movement was and is and always, probably will be perceived as an Eastern phenomenon. Now, on some level, every parent wants their daughter to be able to be the president united states. So, it was accepted to that regard, and on some level, they are all to be commended for being bringing to our attention the tremendous inequity that existed in our culture. But I do not think that there was ever a groundswell of support for the people wound around the block to get Gloria Steinem's autograph on a book, or, or Betty Friedan's autograph on a book. I think that they were thoughtful. They were thinkers. But I think that there was a, there was a perception that they were Eastern liberal thinkers who basically had a germ of a good idea, but, but, uh, it basically came from privilege to begin with. You know, tell-tell it to a woman in Kentucky who's a single mother raising three kids. You know, it te-tell her about the women's movement, and it was that, it was that kind of-

SM: 1:32:07
Eugene McCarthy.

WK: 1:32:10
Um, kind of a sign of how far reaching our, our hatred of the Vietnam War went, that we were willing to listen to this kind of non-entity of a senator. Uh, just it was one sole purpose, and his one sole platform was to get us out of Vietnam.

SM: 1:32:27
And, uh, Robert Kennedy.

WK: 1:32:28
As, as I said, Robert Kennedy was the great promise. Uh, Robert Kennedy was hopefully going to be the president that his brother was not allowed to be. Uh, Robert Kennedy was everything we believed in. Uh, He was progressive. He was not as charismatic as his brother. He had more of a temper than his brother, but he was the one who stared down Jimmy Hoffa, and he stared down George Wallace, and he was the one who sent the National Guard into the south, and he was a tough customer. And I think tha-that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that had he have lived, he would have been elected in 1968 no doubt about it.

SM: 1:33:01
How about George McGovern?

WK: 1:33:03
George McGovern is a wonderful, uh, capable southern [stuttering] senator who represented South Dakota well, but again, falls into the McCarthy mold, where it was just- we were so desperate for anybody to say, let us end this damn war that that we settle for is very, very, very decent man.

SM: 1:33:19
And the cu- finally, the, the people that are affiliated with Watergate, the John Deans of the world, the John Mitchells of the world, the, uh, group that were involved in the Watergate.

WK: 1:33:32
They got caught. They got caught. John Dean sold out. He got caught. He kept a plea. He turned on his boss, and basically, he sang his song so he would not have to go to prison for more than a short period of time. Of that whole group, the ones I had the most respect for are Coulson and, uh, Liddy. Coulson, because I think time has [stuttering] time has certainly indicated that his conversion is very genuine. [mic cuts] I, um, I-I think in, in Charles Carlson's case, uh, time is- has proven that his-his conversion to Christianity is very genuine, and, uh, and has literally consumed his life. He is very comfortable with it. And I think Liddy in the sense that, uh, just as just as the left head is heavy Hoffman. The right now has Gordon Liddy, except Gordon Liddy is a real smart guy, he is a former FBI agent. He is a lawyer, and, you know, he is fond of saying, I am out because of he is a convicted felon. Uh, I am not allowed to own a gun. But Mrs. Liddy is very well armed. [laughter] Uh, Gordon Liddy. I mean, sit in a room with Gordon Liddy and talk to him. I mean, just he, when he was working for Nixon, he stood against everything I believed in, but he is a, charm, funny, uh witty-

SM: 1:34:52
Got a book out, or he had a book out.

WK: 1:34:54
Uh, and, and the thing I respect the most about him is he had ample opportunity to reduce his sentence, um, and he stuck by it, and he did every single hour.

SM: 1:35:08
Um, Robert McNamara,

WK: 1:35:11
Oh, this, this, I am getting closer to death, and I finally realized the error of my ways. So, I am so sorry I find, um, very disingenuous. Um, these guys knew what they were doing.

SM: 1:35:24
Woodward and Bernstein, how important were they, names just stand out?

WK: 1:35:31
They stand out. So, you know, it, it could be Smith and Jones. It could be, you know, Glick and Herman. Um, they stand out because they were very tenacious in a story that ultimately brought down the presidency. So, I think that time has shown Bob Woodward to be a decent author, a well, well written author, uh, one who still gets the good stuff. Um, some of his work is flawed, but a lot of it is good. I liked his, uh, his book on Clinton's first year, uh, the agenda is excellent. The book and the Supreme Court the brethren is very good. I-I think Carl Bernstein has not necessarily distinguished himself in the field of journalism at all. He, he, his flirtation with television was rather disappointing. His book about the Pope, uh, would that he co-authored, I forget who he c-co-authored it with, uh, was fairly well received, um, but I do not think that either one of them has necessarily turned out to be Pulitzer material.

SM: 1:36:26
Um, the last two and then I am done, um, Dwight Eisenhower, and then the impact of the music that it had on the boomer generation.

WK: 1:36:35
Okay, Dwight Eisenhower as a president or as a general?

SM: 1:36:39
Just, just as boomers might think of him.

WK: 1:36:41
Oh, well, the boomers would, would, would totally not care that he won the war or that he was the, the, um, commander in chief of the allied forces. Uh, but the one thing that he has in common with that job and also with the presidency, is a politician. He was a politician during World War Two, and he was a politician, uh, during the eight years that he was in office, he was America's grandfather. He was, I mean, how in the hell would you vote for? I mean, I can remember my parents having this conversation because they were lifelong Democrats, but voting for Eddie Stevenson, who was this aristocratic, very well spoken, um, you know, divorced man for presidency, you know, as opposed to Ike won the war, you know. And Ike was our grandfather. Ike told us, ever there, there now, everything will be okay. And, and by and large, from 1952 to 1960 everything was okay. Um, and then the last one was, who?

WK: 1:37:38
Music, the music of the year, the [stuttering] Jimmy Hendrix- I do not think-

SM: 1:37:38
all the great musicians and the music of that era.

WK: 1:37:40
I think that the, um, the question about the music is always going to be which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did the music stimulate change, or did the change stimulate the music? And I think the answer is not to cop out, but I think the answer is both. Um, I go back to what I said about the Beatles, and I think that the Beatles were the most revolutionary thing about the 1960s and, and the fact that their-their popularity originally might owe, be owing in some fashion to the death of John Kennedy, may be an interesting sidebar, but the fact of the matter is th-that that not only did they own the 1960s but basically they ushered in an era were that anything, anything that was done by a British artist, just went right to the top of the chart, uh and some of it was terrific. I mean, you know, I mean, they ushered the way in for Led Zeppelin, and they offered the, you know, Jimi Hendrix was, was a guy with a lot of promise to he had a big drug problem that took his life. Janis Joplin was this kind of raggedy, but earthy and, and gutsy and ballsy, uh, funky singer who had, you know, same thing, she had a drug problem, and it ultimately took her life. Um, 1960s had more than its share of goofy love songs. I mean, not everything was, was the Eve of Destruction by Barry McGuire, you know, but, uh, certainly music played a significant role in it. You know, toward the latter part, much of the Beatles’ stuff addressed what was going on in culture. Um, there were certain artists like Joan Baez, who was not that popular, but, but whose music almost exclusively, uh, addressed what was going on in culture. Uh, interestingly enough, the crossover black artists, the Motown black artists, were the ones who would sing about, you know, things like love, universal stuff. Love, you left me. You broke my heart. Uh, where did our love go? The way you do, the things you do, things like that, but, but in that, in the quietness of that simplicity, there was a real revolution being born, white kids were really getting into black music. Instead of listening to Pat Boone sing fats, Domino's songs, or Elvis Duke, God knows how many songs that were originally done by black artists, there were now starting to hear black music by black artists and-and so in his own way [intercom interruption] In his own way, you, you have to give also a, a, a mention in the, in the 1960s to Barry Gordy, who's, who's personally a hero of mine, I-I one of my favorite interviews, if not the favorite in-interview of all time, because, um, it was not revolutionary music that sent the white kids to the to the record stores. It was, it was the universality of music. And then later on, groups like the temptations would do songs like ball of confusion. And later on, [intercom interruption] then and, and later on, uh, people like [intercom interruption] that Elias is a busy guy, uh later on, as these groups became very, very well established, they would, they would then bring in, you know, the social consciousness to the music. But originally it was all just, you know, it was, it was love songs, it was, you know, catchy tunes. And so, I mean, you really have to give you credit to Barry Gordon.

SM: 1:41:00
I know big Marvin Gaye also did that, uh, controversial album, What’s Going On.

WK: 1:41:04
What's going on, What's Going On.

SM: 1:41:05
Got him in trouble too.

WK: 1:41:06
What's Going On makes the hair on my knuckles stand up. Because basically what had happened was what Marvin had done really great rhythm and blues, bubble, not bubblegum, because Motown was never bubblegum. It always had an air of sophistication to it. But Marvin had done really great dance type music. And then just when Tammy Terrell died, who was a singing partner so often, uh, he just disappeared for a year, and he came back with What's going on. And What's going on was, o-oh, Barry Gordon hated it, you know, he hated it because he thought it did not have any sales potential and-and the fact of the matter is that Marvin had grown tremendously as an artist. And, uh, What's Going On was exactly the music for 1971.

SM: 1:41:46
That is right.

WK: 1:41:47
It was a hit. It was exactly what it was.

SM: 1:41:50
I was here in Philly working for my brother in the summertime, for, uh, when I was in college, and I went over, I think somebody brought that out. I could not wait to play this.

WK: 1:41:57
Yeah.

SM: 1:41:57
Just every song on it brought goose bumps to you, it was right-

WK: 1:42:01
Yeah, mercy, mercy me, you know.

SM: 1:42:02
Right.

WK: 1:42:02
Um, uh, so and I think that they, you know, do not forget, we did not start dealing with Vietnam in movies for seven or eight years after was over.

SM: 1:42:19
Dear Honor was one of the first ones.

WK: 1:42:20
Dear Honor, was one of the first ones, Coming Home was one of the first ones. The best one, though, was platoon, because it just, it was so raw, it was so in your face. It was so-

SM: 1:42:23
Vets do not like that movie, though.

WK: 1:42:23
Why? Smoking dope all the time.

SM: 1:42:24
They feel it is, um, uh I am not exactly sure why they do not like it. They think it portrayed the Vietnam veteran and like- Yes, smoking dope, the killing, uh, is random killings, and that really upset them. And that was not all the look of Vietnam veteran was about, but images we did a program at our university with, uh, three or four Vietnam veterans, brought them back, and we had a Vietnamese student in our audience. We hired together Vietnamese students at Westchester. We brought Dan Fraley, um, who was one of the town people walked from the wall in Philly, and I interviewed him already, um, and Dennis fest, who had lost his legs in the war, and they were there, and they showed the movie, then they responded to the movie, and then it was all over. She was there in the audience, and she, you know, she came up and hugged both of them. Now, that was a memory I will never forget, because her parents were over there at the time when she was a baby. She does not remember, but, uh, she was a baby, and it was just a fact that she forgave that the American soldier. So, the memories-

WK: 1:43:16
It is what I told you before, that is one of the real ironies of this whole thing. The Americans are not mad at Vietnamese. The Vietnamese are not mad at the Americans, so what gives? I got to go.

SM: 1:43:31
Yeah, Wally. Thank you very much, uh.

WK: 1:43:32
Okay, my pleasure.

(End of Interview)

Stephen McKiernan

Wally Kennedy

103:36

English

Binghamton University Libraries

audio/mp4

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Audio

Radio journalists; Kennedy, Wally--Interviews

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