Interview with Julius Lester

Lester, Julius ; McKiernan, Stephen

Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, educator, activist, and musician. His work primarily dealt with African-American culture, history, and folklore. Lester received a Bachelor's degree in English from Fisk University.

Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, photographer, educator, activist, and musician. Lester was raised in the South and Midwest and received his undergraduate degree in English from Fisk University in 1960. In 1961 he joined SNCC and became their photographer documenting events like Freedom Summer in 1964, the Civil Rights Movement, and the U.S. atrocities in Vietnam during a trip to the country with other members of SNCC. His photography is well documented at the Smithsonian Institution and is part of a permanent collection at Howard University. After teaching for two years at the New School for Social Research, he joined the faculty of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst in 1971 where he taught in the Afro-American Studies Department and the Judaic and Near Eastern Studies Department.  Since 1968, Lester published 25 books of fiction, non-fiction, children's books, and poetry.  His writings brought him much fame with numerous awards for both adult and children's books.

2011-03-02

In copyright

2017-03-14

McKiernan Interviews

213:05

McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Julius Lester
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 2 March 2011
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(Start of Interview)

SM (00:00:04):
Testing one, two, three. You answered the first three questions, so I think we might go right in the order of the questions that I sent you. I do not know if you have them in front of you.

JL (00:00:15):
I do not, but I can certainly...

SM (00:00:20):
I can just read them.

JL (00:00:21):
Sure. Yeah. You can go ahead.

SM (00:00:23):
Yeah. My first question is, in your own words, could you describe what the impact was of the Montgomery Bus Boycott in terms of it had not only on African Americans in the South, but basically, the impact it had overall in the movement?

JL (00:00:44):
Well, historically, there is a gap between when the Montgomery Bus Boycott happened and the movement itself. The Montgomery Bus Boycott happened in (19)56, (19)57 as I recall. And the impact at the time was not that great. There were no demonstrations or anything that followed that. I certainly think the impact was one of... Interesting that it happened. This was different, but no action happened. The next action that happened was... There was a sit-in at a lunch counter in Oklahoma City in 1959. And once again, this was something that happened, but nothing followed it. And then in February in 1960, the sit-in happened at a lunch counter in Greensboro, North Carolina. And for whatever historical reasons that lunch counter sit in, set off a series of demonstrations and sit-ins in Nashville. And within months it spread all across the south. And so why that happened in 1960 and it did not happen in (19)57 after Montgomery, (19)59 after Oklahoma City, nobody knows. But that was the progression of it. And so, Montgomery was certainly very important both in attacking interrogation on the buses as well as introducing Martin Luther King Jr. and non-violence. But I think at the time, people took a wait and see attitude and just kind of wanted to take in exactly what is this, what is happening, and it is something worth counting on. And by 1960 people felt that it was.

SM (00:02:55):
Yeah, the boomer generation... I think higher education is the reason why they break these terms down like the greatest generation, the boomer generation, generation X, millennials, and now generation Y. And I know a lot of my interviewees have not liked the terms of trying to define a generation with a term because there is too many different people. But as it is defined, it is those born between (19)46 and (19)64. And so my question is really those individuals who grew up knowing the following African American names due to their presence on television or in the newspapers, could you just give your very brief comments, because there is quite a few here, what their impact was with respect to not only the lack but white communities and bringing equality to people of color. You could either talk about their strengths or weaknesses or their activism. Just very brief comments. Roy Wilkins of the NAACP.

JL (00:03:55):
Yeah. Well, NAACP was certainly the oldest civil rights organization having started about 1909 I guess it was. And so, it was a pretty mainstream organization and that certainly when the more radical activities of the 1960s began, our Wilkins was opposed to it. But interestingly enough of other organizations from the 1960s, the only one remaining is NAACP. And so that certainly as a mainstream organization, it has been very important not only on the legal front, but also in terms of... And what I mean by a legal front, I mean bringing suits, especially where school interrogation was involved, but also just in its ability to last, to endure.

SM (00:04:53):
How about James Farmer and CORE?

JL (00:04:57):
Yeah, I have a list in front of me so I can just go down it.

SM (00:04:59):
Okay. Very good.

JL (00:05:01):
James Farmer, CORE, was Commerce of Racial Equality, and it was started in the 1940s and the Freedom Rides of 1961 were started by CORE. CORE started off as a much more mainstream organization with a real commitment to non-violence. And then as the 1960s progressed CORE became more and more radical and pretty much radicalized itself out of the existence. James Farmer was head of the organization during the early 1960s, and especially during the Freedom Rise in 1961. Whitney Young and the Urban League. The Urban League is an organization, which still exist, and its focus has always been much more in terms of employment issues in the black community. And Whitney Young was the head of that organization in the 1960s and died in the mid (19)60s in a drowning accident in Africa. Martin Luther King Jr. of course, he was very familiar with SCLC, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference with the organization that he organized and was very important in terms of organizing demonstrations throughout the South in the 1960s. Robert Moses was a member of SNCC, the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, which I belonged to. And Bob Moses was a graduate of Harvard in mathematics, I believe it was. And he went to Mississippi in the early 1960s and very courageous. He essentially worked by himself in some of the worst places in Mississippi trying to get people to a vote. And he's kind of the legendary figure in the movement. John Lewis was one of the leaders of SNCC in the early 1960s and is now a congressman from Georgia. Julian Bond was a member NAACP in the... We have the past 10 years or so... Was a member of SNCC and if anyone has seen the documentary Eyes on the Prize, it is Julian Bond's voice that narrates that. James Meredith was Black man who was a marine veteran who integrated... Was the first black student in University of Mississippi, an event which set off riots in Oxford, Mississippi and President Kennedy had to nationalize the National Guard and call in the Marines. And I guess three people who were killed. James Meredith later became a very arch conservative.

SM (00:08:01):
Yeah, that is a shocker.

JL (00:08:03):
Yeah, he is an interesting fellow shall we say. Ralph Bunch was a US representative of the United Nations and played a part in the United Nations recognizing Israel in 1948. Bayard Rustin and A. Philip Randolph were labor leaders and Bayard Rustin was very important and influential with Dr. King. He was the one who really introduced Dr. King to non-violent and played a behind the scenes role with Dr. King until he was associated with the Communist Party, and he was also gay. And so that he was kind of quietly ushered out of King's Circle. A. Philip Randolph was a labor leader who organized the union of Pullman car Porters on the railroad back in the 1930s and forties I guess it was. And the very first march on Washington. The idea of the march on Washington came about when in 1941, Randolph threatened President Roosevelt with a march on Washington, and I forget what his threat was, whether it had to do with the integration of Washington DC or the integration of armed forces, but it was something along that line which Randolph threatened a march on Washington if they did not come about. And the threat was enough to bring about whatever it was that he was fighting for. Mackenzie was head of CORE at one point. Vernon Jordan was head of the Urban League at one point and is a very high-powered Washington lawyer now and is a very, very close confidant of Bill Clinton. And when Bill Clinton goes to Mount Luther Vineyard, he stays with Vernon Jordan and Dorothy Height was head of the National Negro Council of Women, I believe it was. And she and Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young and several others were known as the Big Six Negro leaders they were called at that time. Stokely Carmichael was head of SNCC, was someone whom I knew. He was the one who introduced to America the term 'Black power'. H. Rap Brown, whom I also knew was head of SNCC after Stokely was head of SNCC. And Rap was much more into radical violence, even though Stokely was too. But Rap was a little bit more serious about it then Stokely was, [inaudible]or that was my impression, and Rap coined the sentence, "Violence is as American as cherry pie." Huey Newton and Eldridge Cleaver were founders of the Black Panther party. Kathleen Cleaver was Kathleen Neil and was a member of SNCC, and I knew her at that time. And then she met Eldridge and married Eldridge, and they were all very prominent in the Black Panther party. Muhammad Ali. of course, Cassius Clay play a very important figure in terms of his resistance to the war in Vietnam and refusing to fight in Vietnam. And another example of the importance that athletes took, I played in the Civil rights movement starting with Joe Lewis really, and then Jackie Robinson certainly. And Muhammad Ali is certainly always reviewed for that.

SM (00:12:09):
And Kurt Flood too. Definitely.

JL (00:12:14):
Fred Hampton was a member of the Black Panther Party in Chicago who was killed by the police. David Hilliard was also a Black Panther party member. George Jackson was... My memory of the details on George Jackson are limited. I did review his book for the New York Times, but he was killed attempting to escape from San Quentin. He became kind of an iconic figure for Black Panther party people, but my memory on him is vague. Angela Davis was associated with George Jackson and at one time was wanted by the FBI for armed activities or something, and later caught in the northern California system. Bobby Seal, Black Panther party member. Jesse Jackson identified himself as the successor to Martin Luther King Jr. Minister from Chicago ran for president in 1984. And the first Black person to make a credible run for president. Andrew Young was a very close associate of Martin Luther King Jr. And was mayor of Atlanta for a couple of terms at least. Ralph Abernathy was a minister who was Dr. King's closest friend. They had known each other since they both [inaudible] in Montgomery. Paul Robeson, the singer and actor, 1920s and 1930s. Very, very radical for his time associated with the Communist Party and went into exile for a number of years and lived in East Germany for a number of years. And I did meet him once shortly after he came back from East Germany. James Balman, who was a friend, was a very important writer. And his most important book came up in... Guess it was 1964, The Fire Next Time, which was two essays that really kind of captured the feelings of anger that were going through significant parts of Black America at the time. And certainly Paul, read the move correctly in terms of the predictions of violence that the book expressed. Thurgood Marshall, who was a lawyer for the NAACP Legal and Defense Fund, who argued the Brown vs Topeka case before the Supreme Court that led to the school desegregation decision in 1954. And he himself later became a Supreme Court Justice appointed, I think by Lyndon Johnson. Roy Innis was probably the last leader of CORE and the one who basically presided over its demise. Adam Clayton Powell was a very flamboyant congressman from Harlem for many, many years and was very important civil rights figure in terms of his willingness to speak out in very, very forceful terms, especially in the 1950s. It is when I remember him at a time when nobody black was really speaking out and Adam Clayton Powell certainly did. LeRoi Jones, Amiri Baraka, is a poet and dramatist Leroy Jones, when he was known as a poet most associated with the beat generation. And then he underwent a radical change and identified himself totally with Black issues and black nationalism. And so, he changed his name to Amiri Baraka and lived in Newark, New Jersey and still lives there. And then Richard Wright was the very important novelist who once again articulated, this is in the 1940s, I guess it was, when both Black Boy and Native Son came out and certainly articulated the violence that laid dormant in the emotions of Black American shall say at that time. And he later went into exile and moved to Paris where he died in the early (19)60s.

SM (00:16:58):
That is excellent description of all those gentlemen. And Dr. Hight. Number six here is really a listing of events. I do not have to read them all over here, but these were major events that really not only made front page news, but really were somewhat shocking to many in America. And it kind of awakened even white America about what was going on in the south. The Schwerner, Chaney, Goodman murders were, I know big front page when I was a little kid. And your thoughts on all these events in terms of how major they were in awakening this nation to the terrible things that were happening in the United States, of which I believe was totally hidden by the media, because if you look at black and white TV in the (19)50s, you hardly ever saw a person of color with the exception Nat King Cole. I think he had a six-week television show during that time period.

JL (00:18:03):
Yeah.

SM (00:18:03):
And then Amos and Andy had a show in their early (19)50s, which was kind of slapstick, and then you really did not have anything until you had Ice Spy and Diane Carroll on the nurse program and there was a big gap there, a lot of hidden things. Just your thoughts on these events.

JL (00:18:22):
Well, Emmett Till was 14, 15 years old and was from Chicago and was visiting his grandfather in Money Mississippi and was accused of whistling at the wife of a white store owner. And he was murdered very, very violently, very, very viciously murdered. His murder had a great impact upon young Black people my age because I was a bit older than Emmett Till. And that certainly it was one of those events that really create a lot of anger in those of us who later would go on to be the generation of the civil rights movement. And so here was a similar event for us, what it was for White America, I have no idea, but certainly Jet Magazine, the mother of Emmett Till had his body photographed and the pictures were published of his body in a Jet magazine or Black Magazine, weekly magazine. And it really, really had an enormous impact. And it certainly had some impact on White America because Bob Dylan wrote a song called The Death of Emmett Till, which was on his first album in the early (19)60s. The church bombing certainly in Birmingham in (19)63 that killed the four girls had a great impact because the march on Washington was at the end of August of 1963, and the church bombing came about three weeks later, about the third week of September. And so that church bombing should follow both closely on the heels of the march on Washington did get a lot of publicity and had a great impact, certainly. And I think it was the event that led President Kennedy... It was the event that led President Kennedy to introduce the Civil rights bill of 1964 into Congress, and no, Lyndon Johnson, I am sorry, Kennedy was not there at that time. It was Lyndon Johnson. And so that had a great impact on America nationwide. James Meredith, 1966, June of (19)66, Meredith was going to do a march against Fear, and he was going to walk from Memphis, Tennessee down to the state of Mississippi, and he got a few miles outside of Memphis, and he was shot, not killed, but he was wounded. But that led to others taking up the march. And it was on that march that Stokely Carmichael first used the phrase 'Black power'.

SM (00:21:15):
Wow, I did not know that. Wow.

JL (00:21:19):
And so that certainly got national attention. Delmont 1965 was really what galvanized the... It was after Selma that Lyndon Johnson introduced the 1965 voting white bill, and it was the march that we were going to march to. Well, I mean, the background was basically... There had been a young black man named... What was his name? Jimmie Lee Jackson, who had been murdered, at a demonstration for voting rights. And so the people wanted to march from Stalman to the capital in Montgomery to protest to the governor. And so, the first attempt of the march was met with a lot of violence by men on horseback and this, that and the other. And so subsequently, there was a march that was protected by federal troops. And so, the federal Montgomery March was very important in terms of the eventual passage of the 1965 voting right bill. The murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner, 1964. Chaney was black and Goodman and Schwerner were both white Jewish from New York City. I knew the families of both Goodman and Schwerner, and they were murdered, and their bodies were not found. They were murdered in June. Their bodies were not found until August. And that certainly their murder came at the beginning of the Mississippi or Freedom Summer. And the Freedom Summer was when it was almost a thousand, basically mainly white college students went to Mississippi to register people to vote, and for the summer to begin with their disappearance certainly was an indication that going to Mississippi was a very, very dangerous thing to do that summer. And so certainly their murders were publicized in the nation certainly. It was an important event in terms of focusing the attention of the nation on Mississippi and segregation in Mississippi and just generally the atmosphere of violence against Black people in Mississippi. I mean, it was really a terrorist state as far as I am concerned. I was there before, and it eventually led to significant changes in how delegates were chosen to the Democratic Party. And so, the Democratic Party at that time, which had been controlled primarily about Southern democrats, changed after the summer of (19)64. And so subsequently, the Democratic Party was much more... Became much liberal and much more open than it had been previously. The Freedom Rides were 1961... At that time, it was black and white could not sit together on buses that were leaving the South. When I left Nashville, Tennessee in 1961, I had to sit in the back of the bus until the bus got to a Northern state, and then I could sit anywhere on the bus. And so, the Freedom Rides were to basically enforce the law, which already said that the segregated seating on interstate buses was unconstitutional. And so, the Freedom Rides started in Washington, DC and were going to end in New Orleans, they were organized by CORE, but they did not get any further than Mississippi. When they got to Jackson, Mississippi, people were arrested and put in jail. And so that led to people from all over the country getting on buses and going to the Mississippi and being arrested and going to jail. Before that, the people on the buses had met a lot of violence in both Birmingham, Alabama and Montgomery Alabama. And that also did get a fair share of publicity. But after that summer, there was no more segregation on interstate buses. The murder of Malcolm X 1965, February (19)65. At that particular time, one of the things that may be hard for people to grasp is that both during the lifetime of Malcolm and during the lifetime of Dr. King, they were not the heroic figures they are looked up on to be now. I can certainly recall the New York Times coming out with editorial against Martin Luther King and accusing him of throwing up violent by non-violent demonstrations. And so certainly with Malcolm X, Malcolm X at the time of his death was a minor figure, believe it or not. He was really not that well known outside the black community. And he was certainly seen as somebody who was extremely violent and what have you. And so, there were no tears lost, shed at the death of Malcolm X. And like I said, he is much, much more widely known and revered, and I think he's even been on a stamp than he was during his lifetime. And so, his assassination had little impact compared to the impact of Kings assassination. King’s assassination, certainly there were riots in New York City. There were riots in other places around the country because certainly even though King at that time was preparing the march on Washington, he had come out against the war in Vietnam and was really becoming a lot more radical in his thinking and in his actions in terms of trying to build a coalition of a multi-ethnic coalition as well as a coalition that would involve economic coalition also for whites and for people and what have you, not so, but his assassination certainly set off a great reaction both of violence and of creep at the time. The Little Rock Nine, 1957, I guess we are talking, were black students who integrated at Central High school and [inaudible] had to be escorted in by the National Guard, which Eisenhower nationalized at the time because the governor basically refused to let the students in. There was some violence around that, and that was one of the first events that was covered on television. John Chancellor, who was later an Anchor Man for NBC, covered that for NBC, and that was shown on television and did get a fair amount of publicity. George Wallace standing in the schoolhouse door, this was the 1963, I guess it was, the integration of the rest of Alabama, and George Wallace made this show a pending in the entrance of the administration building, but it was all a show for his constituents because a deal had been worked out with the Kennedy administration where he was standing in the door. While he was standing in the door, federal marshals were escorting... Now, there were two students, Vivian Malone, and I forget the... I cannot think of the young man's name, but anyway, while he was standing in the front door, federal marshals were escorting the Black students in the back door for them to be registered into school. And so, he did that for show. It had no impact upon them getting into school whatsoever. He did not stop them from getting into school.

SM (00:30:18):
This is important because I know you bring it up in your book, one of your books, that we talk about the tragedies here, but we never talk about... It is like when Dr. King used to give speeches, he used to say that we all have it within us as individuals to bring change to this world, bring justice to the world. And so, it was the people that we never hear about, the people that... And it is the same thing here. We might emphasize Dr. King or Malcolm, and certainly the tragedy of Emmett Till, but there were 4,000 people as you brought up in your book, who were murdered, who were lynched. And this is something that I still think our students today are not aware of or do not seem to...still think our students today are not aware of, or do not seem to have an understanding.

JL (00:31:06):
Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. Basically, starting after the Civil War, and especially after 1877, when federal troops left the South and the Reconstruction era ended, there began a campaign of terror against Black people carried out by the Ku Klux Klan, and then the local communities, of murdering people, often by hanging them from a tree, lynching them, as a way both of terrorizing the black community, and intimidating anyone who had any thought of doing anything, political, voting, or what have you. People were lynched quite often on trumped-up charges of rape, very few of which could have been proven. They were also lynched if they owned a prosperous store. The reasons why you could be lynched were almost infinite. It reminds me of the summer of (19)64 in Jackson, Mississippi, a civil rights worker was arrested for reckless walking, and so they could make up any charges they wanted.

SM (00:32:33):
Oh, my gosh.

JL (00:32:34):
And certainly, from about 1880 until 1970, I guess, the last... Well, no, we got to go into the nineties. There were lynchings in the nineties, but certainly close to 5,000 Black people, both men, and there were women also who were lynched, were lynched in the South. And Congress, the Senate passed a resolution a few years ago, apologizing for the fact that even though the NAACP tried every year from 1919 forward to get the Congress to pass a federal law against lynching, so that lynchers could be arrested and tried in federal court at least, Congress never did it. And so, the Senate did issue an apology for not doing what it should have done for all those years.

SM (00:33:35):
I know right here, and you may be aware of it, in, I think it is Coatesville, Pennsylvania, the murder of... They actually put a historic sign up a couple of years ago. It was torn down and they put it up again. And we are talking about, I forget, the professor from Franklin and Marshall came over and talked about it, but it was... There was one in the 1940s as a follow-up to this one that they were putting the marker up for. It is a terrible tragedy, and people were saying, "This happened here?" One thing that is very important, you talk about the March on Washington. We all know that Kennedy was very pragmatic with respect to, he was worried about what could happen in the city. And A. Philip Randolph, I think he trusted more than any of the other leaders. But there is a comment that, and I'd just like your thoughts here from your book, however, respond to your criticism that the March is a great inspiration to those who think something is accomplished by having black bodies next to white bodies.

JL (00:34:48):
At the time, and I remember the March on Washington vividly. My wife went to it, I did not. And I thought it was really a publicity thing. I thought it was good public relations. I did not see what else it would accomplish. And certainly, the fact that the four girls were bombed, were killed less than a month after it kind of confirmed my opinion at the time. Well, I was just never impressed with the March on Washington. I thought King's speech was great, but I just saw it as a PR thing. I did not see it as effective politics.

SM (00:35:27):
Yeah, the quote that you have here was, "The march was nothing but a giant therapy session that allowed Dr. King to orate about his dreams of..." I do not even like to use the word, the N word, "Eating at the same table of a Georgia cracker, while most blacks just dreamed of eating."

JL (00:35:44):
Yep-yep, yep. I would not repudiate those words now.

SM (00:35:53):
In your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? And what was the watershed moment?

JL (00:36:01):
Well, I would certainly say probably February 1960. And I would probably say that they ended with the death of King. I think King was the center, and when the center was not there, things fell apart. And actually, I would say, well, I will back up from that. I will say that the Civil Rights Movement had two goals, and the two goals were to integration, and public accommodation, and to ensure the right of Black people to vote. And those were accomplished in 1964 and 1965. And I would say the Civil Rights Movement ended in of 1965 with it fulfilling its goals. And I think one of the unfortunate things is that we never celebrated that we won. And so (19)65, the Civil Rights Movement ended. (19)66, you had the beginning of Black power, and certainly the mood turns much angrier, and there is much more rhetoric of violence and actual violence with the coming of the Black Panther Party. And then (19)68 King, and also the rise of Black nationalism also comes (19)65, (19)66, and then King is killed in (19)68, and certainly things are done by then.

SM (00:37:33):
Yeah. Actually, this bleeds right into question eight and nine on the second page there, is if you could describe the strengths and weaknesses of the activists who believed in the philosophy of Gandhi, that nonviolence is the only way to protest. And secondly, the change that took place, the strengths and weaknesses of activists who believed that going beyond nonviolence, via either armed confrontation, or burning buildings, or tougher talk, or being more aggressive, which these individuals are labeled. I know that Bobby Seale has said over and over again that, "We were not violent." I have seen him talk many times. He said, "We had guns to protect ourselves," he says that "but we never used them." Now, I do not know what your thoughts... So, what would be the strengths and weaknesses of these two approaches? Because these are the people that-

JL (00:38:24):
Well, the strength of non-violence was very, very effective as long as it was used against very recognizable institutions, segregated lunch counters, and things of that sort. The weakness of nonviolence is that racism does not exist in a concrete building where with the sign on it saying, " No coloreds allowed." Racism is so much more amorphous and resides in the spirits and the minds of people. And that is very difficult for non-violence to attack. The strengths of the Black radical movement was- certainly was that it was a movement aimed at changing the consciousness, number one, probably, of Black people, which is something that began with Malcolm X, beginning to change the consciousness of how Black people thought about themselves. And then also changing how Black people thought about white people and changing how white people thought about themselves. The weakness of the Black radical movement, despite what Bobby Seale says, is that if there is anything America knows about, its violence. And if you present an image of dressed in a black beret and black turtleneck and black pants and a black leather jacket carrying a rifle to white America, they know how to deal with that. And so that even though the Black Panthers may never have fired a gun, which I doubt very, very seriously, they certainly were what Lenin called agent provocateurs, and so they certainly provoked violence. And I spoke out against the Black Panther Party at the time, and I continue to speak up against them now.

SM (00:40:40):
Would you put the Weather Underground who split from SDS?

JL (00:40:46):
Yeah, I would-

SM (00:40:47):
As well as the Brown Berets that followed the Chicanos, who followed the Black Panthers in the same boat?

JL (00:40:53):
The Brown Berets, I really know nothing about, but certainly the Weather Underground, they were well-intentioned, but that certainly the way to attack America, the way to change America, is not through violence, because that is what America's good at, is violence.

SM (00:41:21):
I put the AIM leaders in there too, because the AIM went from Alcatraz in 1969 to Wounded Knee in (19)73.

JL (00:41:30):
Yeah, once again, I really do not know enough for about AIM, about the details of what happened at Wounded Knee to really talk about it. The other thing, which is really hard to get someone to understand, is that 1968 was an amazing year in terms of all the things that were happening in the country, and certainly, a lot of people believed that we were on the verge of a revolution, and that was people both in the government, as well as people on the left. And so, while it is easy to look back and criticize the Weather Underground, at the time, it certainly seemed like that it was going to be possible to bring about revolutionary change in this country.

SM (00:42:28):
Do you like the term Boomer Generation, and if not, what would be a better term to describe it?

JL (00:42:36):
It is not my generation. I have no opinion one way or the other.

SM (00:42:40):
But you know something Julius, can I call you Julius?

JL (00:42:45):
Yeah, you may.

SM (00:42:45):
Yep. One of the things that is interesting, because I think you found in the same category, is many of the people that were born in that period between say 1937 and (19)45, feel that they are more closer to the boomers, the front edge boomers, than those that were the last 10 years of the boomers. Because if you are in graduate school in the early (19)70s, we were taught that the leaders of the movement were usually people that were the graduate students, that were in their late twenties, which means they were born in that timeframe. So, in a sense, a lot of the people that are your age claim that they really have the boomer spirit, and I have noticed that. I do not know if you feel that, but you were a very important part of that spirit.

JL (00:43:26):
Yeah, I do not, and I do not because I feel like, well... I was born and was, I guess, seven years old when the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

SM (00:43:49):
Yes.

JL (00:43:50):
And I consider that to be a watershed event in world history. And I think there is a difference. For me, there is a difference between whether one was born before that happened, and whether one was born after that happened. The difference being whether you grew up believing, knowing that the world could be destroyed by the dropping of certain kinds of bombs, and whether you reached an age of consciousness without knowing the world could be destroyed.

SM (00:44:23):
Wow. Very well-

JL (00:44:24):
And so, for me, that is a big difference. Also growing up with radio, as opposed to growing up with television, is also, to me, a big difference. And so, I do not see myself as part of the Boomer generation at all.

SM (00:44:44):
Please describe in a few words your role with SNCC as an organization photographer. I know you were assigned to cover a lot of the events and activities. I know you went with Stokely to Vietnam during that timeframe.

JL (00:44:58):
I went with him to Cuba, not to Vietnam.

SM (00:45:00):
Oh, okay. Cuba, my mistake.

JL (00:45:03):
Yeah. I went to Vietnam separately from him, but I was in Cuba with him.

SM (00:45:11):
Yeah. Could you discuss some of the events you covered, and what did you learn from that experience that you maybe did not know before you were that photographer?

JL (00:45:19):
Well, my role in SNCC was very modest. I came into SNCC in 1966 as a photographer. And by that time, the demonstrations and the voter registration campaigns were over. I did photograph, there was a riot in Atlanta in 1966, I photographed that. There was the riot in Newark in 1967, which I also photographed. But primarily my role in SNCC was to, number one, write and produce materials using the photographs. And so, I produced calendars using the photographs, and other materials, publications, that SNCC did. Also, when I was with SNCC, I also wrote my first book when I was living in Atlanta with SNCC, which was Look Out, Whitey! Black Power Gon' Get Your Mama. I wrote during the winter of 1966, I guess it was, (19)67. I was also a folk singer in those years. And so, I went to Cuba for a protest song festival. And the first day I was there, unbeknownst to me, Stokely showed up in Cuba. And so, I switched from the protest song festival to live with Stokely and go around with him. So, because of that, I got to spend three days traveling through the mountains in Eastern Cuba. I wanted to talk to Stokely, and so we spent three days traveling around the Sierra Maestras.

SM (00:47:13):
Wow.

JL (00:47:17):
And that was fascinating. That really was fascinating. And then also that year, I spent a month in North Vietnam. The Burton Russell Foundation had organized a war crime tribunal to be held in Stockholm, Sweden, the spring of (19)66, (19)67. And so, two people were sent from SNCC, myself and Charlie Cobb were sent from SNCC to get a testimony. This was during a time when the US was still denying it was bombing North Vietnam. And so, we ended up spending a month in North Vietnam, and I did a lot of photographing in North Vietnam, showing the United States was very definitely lying about bombing, since I was certainly very close to a bombing raid on more than one occasion when I was there.

SM (00:48:05):
Well, did you ever see Che Guevara?

JL (00:48:05):
Never did. Che Guevara was already in Bolivia when I was in Cuba.

SM (00:48:06):
Oh, okay. Yeah, because he was a hero to many of the new left students, particularly many of the ones that were in Columbia in (19)68. This next question is basically centered on the students who came south, the white students. And it is amazing. The majority of them, I believe were Jewish, because I am amazed. When I talk to everybody, the Jewish background, I know there were some Catholic white students as well, but there were a thousand that went south. And just your thoughts on them, in terms of their overall impact. And we all know that Mario Savio, he was not Jewish, but he was one of those students who went back to Berkeley and tried to hand out literature. And that is when all that stuff happened, and the free speech movement started because of it, because they were recruiting students to go south. And I know that Tom Hayden was another one who had been south, and others had gone back to recruit on college campuses. And there was also that period of time when there was a question over who was leading the organizations. And was there sensitivity within the Freedom Summer that African Americans instead of whites do the running of the events?

JL (00:49:34):
Oh, yeah. There was... Well, how can I put it? Most people in SNCC were opposed to Freedom Summer. They did not want all these white kids going to Mississippi. They also recognized that they had been working in Mississippi for three years. And again, very-very little publicity. People had been beaten and put in jail and close to being killed, a couple of them. And so, they also recognize that a thousand white students coming to Mississippi would bring publicity. One of the real ironies of all of this is that I think I mentioned before, both the Schwerner and Goodman families were friends of mine, and I was friends with Andrew, Mickey Schwerner's brother, and was talking with him that Spring of (19)64, and he said, "What needs to happen is for one of those white kids to get killed." And of course, not knowing that one of those white kids was going to be his kid brother. And so, that certainly, there was a recognition that they will bring the newspapers and the publicity will come with them. And so, the state was split up into congressional districts, and there was at least one congressional district where the SNCC leader who was head of the project in that district would not allow white students to work in his district. And so that certainly, there was a tension between who is running the show, and certainly I, myself, witnessed a certainly unintentional insensitivity on the part of some of the white students in terms of working with blacks, because they simply were not aware of the social dynamics, and what have you. And so certainly there was tension, and certainly the SNCC people involved made a great effort to stay in control and to give the orders. And it was a success politically, but internally, it was not a happy summer.

SM (00:52:09):
Yeah. I remember one of the leaders of the trainers was Staughton Lynd.

JL (00:52:18):
Yep.

SM (00:52:18):
And I guess they trained up north, and then they went south. So, did they have issues even with him being a trainer?

JL (00:52:25):
I do not think so, no. Staughton was real well respected. No, there is not a question about that.

SM (00:52:28):
Yep. Would you compare the... thirteen, there. Would you compare the SDS in the late (19)60s with its change from, we talked about earlier, about going more radical, to the SNCC and the same time period because we saw Stokely go from SNCC to more of a black power, more radical attitude. And just your thoughts on that. And some of the members of the... I think H. Rap Brown was in SNCC, and then he went to the Black Panthers. So, would you see the switches happening around the same time for those organizations?
JL (00:53:05):
Oh yeah. They were. And certainly, I think it had to do with a progression of political learning, going from thinking that the problem was segregation and lack of voting rights to a recognition that the problem was really systemic, and that the systemic part of it for Black people was racism. The systemic part of it for SDS was capitalism. So, it was like, how do you demonstrate? You do not demonstrate against racism; you cannot demonstrate against capitalism. You really have to change them. And so, the way to change them is through revolution. And so, people became much more doctrinaire, and that was certainly a lot of the reason for the downfall of both SDS and SNICC at that time. H. Rap Brown, Rap took on the title of Minister of Defense of the Black Panther Party, but he never worked actively with the Black Panther Party. And I was close to Rap during this time. And so, he did that more as a... I am not sure how to describe it, but he did that more as a listening kind of a thing. He really never worked actively with the Black Panthers.

SM (00:54:50):
I am actually going to be interviewing Ed, E. Charles Brown, his brother.

JL (00:54:55):
Oh, yeah?

SM (00:54:56):
Yeah, sometime in the next three, four weeks. I guess Ed has had a stroke, but he's okay. And Ed, I want the story. He was very close to his brother, and it really had an effect on his health, I guess, the loss of his brother, to going to jail out west, and so forth. And he firmly believed that H Rap Brown was set up, and he did not kill that person. It is a total set up. So, I am looking forward to my interview with Ed.

JL (00:55:26):
Yeah.

SM (00:55:27):
In your eyes, how important were the Beats in terms of creating what I call an anti-establishment feeling in the (19)60s? We all know about Alan Ginsburg, Kerouac, Cassidy, Ferlinghetti, Leroy Jones, Gary Snyder. We all know that the Beats were very important in their writing, and people were reading them. But they were not large in number, and they were based in San Francisco and New York, in the Village. And we know the Bohemian lifestyle affected a lot of it. How did it affect the African American community?

JL (00:56:02):
Very little. Certainly, Beat Generation had an enormous impact upon me for the positive. And I certainly saw myself as part of the Beat Generation. Ended up spending the summer of (19)59 in San Francisco on North Beach specifically, because that is where it was happening, and that is where I wanted to be. But the Beat Generation had an enormous impact upon the hippies. The hippies came from the Beat Generation. And from the hippies, you go to Abbey Hoffman and Jerry Ruben and that whole group. And so, the Beat Generation had an enormous impact on the (19)60s through their impact on the hippies. But in terms of Black America, very little impact.

SM (00:56:59):
Let me change my tape here. Got to turn it over. How is your weather?

JL (00:57:06):
Today is warm, supposed to be a cold month.

SM (00:57:13):
Has not been melting the last three days. Well, anyway.

JL (00:57:21):
We have so much snow on the ground. It will be green, maybe, for a dog gone, unless we hit some 90 degree temperatures in here. It has been a miserable, miserable winter.

SM (00:57:26):
Oh, yeah. We are expecting snow on the weekend here. So, what were the writings, what were the books that you were reading in the (19)50s and (19)60s? What were the books that had the best... And obviously you are a great writer, but before you became that writer, what were you reading?

JL (00:58:09):
Well, certainly in our (19)50s, early (19)60s, I was reading, I was reading Kerouac, and I was reading Ginsburg, Henry Miller, D. H. Lawrence, Aldous Huxley, James Baldwin, Richard Wright, Thomas Merton. Those were some of the people I was reading in the (19)50s and early (19)60s.

SM (00:58:17):
In the area of the Civil Rights Movement, and certainly in the anti-war movement, a lot has been written that the women's movement was a direct result of the sexism that took place within both of those historic movements. Your thoughts on that, because I know we had a program within our university that if Dr. King was sitting on the stage today, the first thing they would ask him is, "Why were you such a sexist?" So just your thoughts on the women's role in the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-war movement, and the importance of, that is the one of the why the women's movement was created.

JL (00:59:01):
Well, I do not know that I am qualified to talk about that, because it was not something which... I think it is more complicated than people have talked about. It is not as clear cut as people have talked about, and it is just not something I want to talk about.

SM (00:59:48):
Yeah. I will make just one other comment, and that is, when you look at that March on Washington in (19)63, the only person you see a female, there is Dorothy Height standing to the right, and Mahalia Jackson, who sang, so that is been brought up. The Generation Gap, obviously a very big thing in the (19)60s. The Generation Gap was the differences between parents and students on culture, and certainly the counterculture. Certainly, they are staying on the war in Vietnam, or could have been on any of the movements itself. Was there a generation gap that in the African American community too, between parents and... Because when I talk the Boomer generation years, I am trying... Boomer generation to me, includes everyone, includes all seventy... The question is whether it is (19)74 to (19)79, I do not think we even know how many million we are talking about here, but the generation gap was very important because of the differences between parents and their children. Were there differences in the African American communities?

JL (01:00:54):
There were differences until the children got arrested. When the children got arrested, there was no more generation gap. The parents... I remember very clearly in Nashville, when the sit-ins happened, and the first arrest happened. The elder generation had been leery up until the point when the first arrest happened. The older generation provided support, food, money, what have you. And within the Black community, there was the generation gap comes later with the more cultural things. When the Afros come in and the wearing dashikis come in, and you have more of a generation gap over the style. But in terms of the politics itself, there was no generation gap.

SM (01:01:54):
In your book, Look Out, Whitey! Black Power Gon' Get Your Mama, the next part is basically just responding to some of your quotes, if that is okay?

JL (01:02:02):
Sure.

SM (01:02:02):
I think we are just responding to some of your quotes, if that is okay?

JL (01:02:03):
Sure.

SM (01:02:04):
First off, on number eight then, when you wrote the book, it was right in the middle of one of the most tumultuous times in the (19)60s. Of course, (19)68 is a noun because of all the tragic things you already talked about that happened, including the two major assassinations and what we saw at the Democratic Convention and actually tech, and so a lot of things. But to me, and this is me personally who had read it many years back, to me, this book is really a great description of the times and the divisions between Black and white, plus the feelings of people of color felt toward America that did not care about all its citizens. Could you comment on the following? I am just putting this here for the record. [inaudible] identified with a poor, the spies, the downtrodden, the humiliated. It was different from the students’ citizens in 1960 where people had to dress up in suits and ties to prove they were clean. Now, it is changing where the workers' dress fits the people they were helping through overalls and so forth. Just your thoughts on these changes because the approach that young African Americans took towards the protests at different times, making sure that the people that they were representing felt comfortable with how they looked.

JL (01:03:27):
Yes, correct. I think it is smart politics. You change your approach depending upon whom you are, what you are working for, and yeah. So, I think it was smart politics. I mean, certainly in the 1960s, early (19)60s with the sit-in movement, it was very, very important to get dignified. And although it was not much a matter of clean as it much was a matter of appearing non-threatening, put it that way. And looking no different than any well-dressed white person. And so certainly in terms of creating an image for the movement, it was the right industry to protect. And then when you begin working-working in a rural area in the south, both practically, it is impractical to go around in a suit and a tie and what have you. And also, you want the people with whom you are trying to organize to be comfortable with you. And so that-that is what some people do. If they were able to be in overalls, I never did felt the need to do that. Never felt that I could not do what I was there to do. Just by guessing like I normally did, and I normally did not wear suit and tie, and I normally did not wear overalls either. So, I think it is a matter of simply being a good organizer.

SM (01:05:12):
In the marching of Washington (19)63, I think Stokely was right on. But your thoughts on this that, and I just interviewed George Houser a couple of days ago, and I interviewed Elizabeth Lasch-Quinn too about her dad, Christopher Lasch, and we talked about the fact that the Civil Rights Movement was centered on the moral compass. And Stokely said, this is a quote "politics demands a certain rhetoric. It does not demand moral action to fit the rhetoric", is what Stokely said. This was certainly true when John Lewis had to remove one line from a speech that said, "I want you to know which side the federal government is on". I find that prophetic, but just your words and the fact that with John Kennedy and why he eventually allowed the march, it is number one. And in Stokely's comments about it should be strictly about the morality.

JL (01:06:15):
I am not sure what you are asking me.

SM (01:06:18):
I am asking you what are your thoughts on Stokely's comments that politics demands a certain rhetoric. It does not demand more action to fit the rhetoric, is what he said.

JL (01:06:29):
Yeah. Honestly, I am not sure I understand what Stokely said. What he said does not make total sense to me. And I guess I disagree with it. Yeah, I guess I am much more on the side of the rhetoric and the moral action being one and the same. And so, I do not know that I agree with what Stokely said.

SM (01:07:04):
This is another important thing too, because I grew up in Ithaca, New York area, and I can remember when Dr. King went to Cicero and all the, well, first off, the hatred up in the Chicago area toward Dr. King, but also the real divisions that were taking place within the Civil rights leadership about his decision to go north when Robert wanted to stay south. And you bring this up talking about the fact that segregation was an issue up north, and Dr. King knew it. Yet he was criticized for extending protests to the North because many of his peers wanted him to concentrate in the South. And I thought what Malcolm said about everything south of the Canadian border was south. Which I had not heard before and I am glad I reread your book. How important, well, was Dr. King and how heavily criticized was he within his own community for going north?

JL (01:07:57):
Well, I think the problem was that the tactics that had worked in the South would not work in the North. And so, he could not export the demonstration style approach of civil rights in the north, because the problems were very different. And I know that Dr. King had an apartment on the south side of Chicago, and I guess tried to live there for a time, but his efforts in the north were really a failure. And SNCCs in the North, SNCCs tried to do some things in Philadelphia, and they were also a failure. Malcolm X had much more sense of the temper of the Northern Black communities. CORE was much more of a Northern-based civil rights group and had much more of a sense of what was an effective way to work in the Northern communities than I think SNCCs or Dr. King did. And so, Dr. King I think was criticized because I think there were people who felt there were still a lot to be done in the South, which certainly there was, and he did not know the north. And so, he basically failed when he went north.

SM (01:09:29):
What did you think of his Vietnam speech?

JL (01:09:41):
His Vietnam speech was excellent. I thought his Vietnam speech was really a moral high point of his life and career.

SM (01:09:43):
And I agree. I agree. Can you talk about that? You already made reference to how important was Fannie Lou Hamer and her challenge with Lyndon Johnson in the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party in (19)64, but how important really was that in the scheme of things at that time?

JL (01:10:00):
It was extremely important. The Mississippi Democratic Party was all white, and that basically the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party was organized to go to the convention in Atlantic City and appear before the Credentials Committee of the Democratic Party Convention to ask them to unseat the regular representative of the Democratic Party because there was segregation and to seat the MFDP instead. What the Credentials Committee was, it did not unseat the Mississippi Democratic Party, but it did offer two honorary seats to the MFDP, which they turned down. And Mrs. Hamer was very, very critical in all of that because she appeared before the Credentials Committee and her speech was so forceful and so eloquent that it was interrupted by Lyndon Johnson who came on television to make an announcement about something totally irrelevant because he did not want people to see her anymore on television.

SM (01:11:18):
Yeah, I remember watching TV when that one was happening. I was really into politics when I was a young kid. Again, this is an important quote from you. This is your quote: "if the press had screamed as loudly for the end of segregation and discrimination as it screamed for law and order, segregation would have a vague memory in (19)68. Somehow law and order became all important. Or when Black people take to streets and burn and wipe out a few of the white man's stores, law and order is never so important when the police are whipping N Heads on the weekend." And then you finally say, "law and order must prevail is the cliche of the (19)60s and the biggest lie because the American black man has never known law and order except as an instrument of repression". Any additional thoughts on that or is that?

JL (01:12:14):
No, I really had not read that in I do not know how many years, but that about summed it up. I mean, I certainly think that placed it pretty directly.


SM (01:12:23):
You have a way of really writing down. Your book is full of quotes. I could have had a hundred of them here. You are a very good writer, and you really expressed the feelings of the times too in that book. And then as a follow-up here, Ronald Reagan, if you remember, came to power in California under two banners, law, and order to stop the protests on college campus, IE the free speech movement in People's Park. And then, of course, to end the welfare state that he was against. And these were direct attacks on the protests and the welfare state handouts at work. He came to the presidency on those two goals. So, law and order was what Reagan was all about. So, in a sense, when he came to power in the (19)80s...

JL (01:13:15):
Well, but the law-and-order thing started with Nixon, and I think in the (19)68 election, it was certainly unfortunate that there was so much violence in the streets of Chicago at the Democratic Convention. And it certainly made it seem like the Democratic Party was the party of chaos and disorder. And Nixon campaigned very hard on a law-and-order platform, and we know the results. And so, Reagan was following up on Nixon. Nixon pioneered the law and order.

SM (01:13:54):
And also, could you describe the changes in the Civil Rights Movement? I think you put it beautifully in the book where you state in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, "we shall overcome" is the real moral, the singing "we shall overcome", and then we go to black and white together, and then we go to black power. So, would you say, just as you state in your book, those are the three shifts?

JL (01:14:18):
Yes, I would, yeah.

SM (01:14:20):
When was Black and white together? We all know that, I think, "we shall overcome" was probably up to (19)64, (19)65.

JL (01:14:35):
Well, "black and white together" was simply one of the versions of "we shall overcome". And so that as long as "we shall overcome" was being sung, "black and white together" was put off in the last verse of "we shall overcome". And so, they were both going on at the same time. Yeah. So "we should overcome", another important song that came out of Mississippi was "freedom is a constant struggle". But I mean, Black power, the chant was "what do you want? Black power. When do you want it? Now". And that certainly had its call, Larry, with the songs of Jim Morrison and The Doors, "we want the world, and we want it now". And so, there was certainly a shift from, I would say, the more patient and the approach that had more respect for political process being slow. And you certainly find that in the cadences of social overcome, which have a slow dignity to it, but then there is that need for immediate gratification that we find, and "what do you want? Black power. When do you want it? Now. And we want the world, and we want it now". And certainly, if I were to say, if there is one thing that characterizes boomers, the culture has inoculated them with the need for hints and gratification.

SM (01:16:28):
Yeah. Yeah. You just bring up, what would be the strengths and weaknesses of boomers, if you were to look at this?

JL (01:16:36):
Oh, dear, dear, dear, dear, dear. I am really going to stay away from that completely.

SM (01:16:42):
Okay. All right. This is another quote. "It does not matter how many Ralph Bunche's, Jackie Robinson's and Martin Luther King's, the white man projects his models of what the meager should be. Blacks will always be more like Little John and Big Red". This was in 1968. How does it apply to 2011 when MLK Day happens, and Jackie Robinson's number 42 is now being recognized in all the baseball parks? Is this more about white men than Black men today? Explain in terms of (19)68 to 2011.

JL (01:17:17):
Oh boy, there is really no way to.

SM (01:17:19):
Is that really in a statement just at the times, the feelings, and you may have?

JL (01:17:34):
I mean, "Big Red" was written off next to us. And Malcolm X. And I do not remember who Little John was, but there is really no comparison between (19)68 and 2011. I mean, in 2011, you have, I do not know how many black millionaires, I mean, when I looked at professional basketball and pro football, I am looking at a bunch of millionaires playing a game, and majority of them are black, and the majority of them are not doing a damn thing with a million dollars to do anything for Black people. And so that what I said in (19)68, is in no way part of 2011. What we have in 2011, what we really have is so far away from the values articulated by King, the kinds of values that Jackie Robinson represented. We have Black athletes and entertainers now who are totally into the culture of conspicuous consumption and a narcissistic culture. And I think it is shameful and disgraceful. With millions that exist in the Black community now and they are spending it all on jewelry and cars and airplanes, and what have you, while people do not have places to live. And it is absolutely absurd.

SM (01:19:11):
You are so right on this. I wish you would write about this because I can think of one person who has done really good right now, and that is Magic Johnson, because I think Magic, even though he still has the glow of a rich man, he's given a lot back to his community. And that this is a man who understands where he came from in Lansing, Michigan, and he has never forgotten it. And I would also say Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is another person who has done unbelievable things. And of course, he is fighting cancer right now, but I would put those two that have done good things. But you are right on the majority.

JL (01:19:47):
Yeah.

SM (01:19:55):
And it is upsetting. The last quote I have here is just this one on number 19 here, "whenever a Black man asserts what wife try to put him down, but in the act of self-assertion is not a threat unless whites choose to make it so. Yet they always choose Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali and Adam Clayton Powell are only three examples of Black men that White America wanted lynched. What whites said to them was what has always been said to the Blacks, and you must think you as good as a white man", Stokely said. Now, just you still any comments on that. And then Silky said, hell, I am better. That is kind of Black pride.

JL (01:20:39):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, that phrase was, even when liberals said it, "you can be as good as a white person", was always kind of condescending. Given the record of white people, I would want to be better than white people when it comes to a lot of things. I do not know that I have any comment on that now. I do not know whether or not I would have to really speak think whether or not what I wrote then applies now. And that certainly, I mean, you do see it applying when a member of Congress tells the President of the United States when he is making the State of the Union address that you're lying. He would not have said that to a white president. And so that I think it may not be the general rule anymore, it certainly does still apply. And that certainly you would not have the number of- it is so odd that nobody challenged John McCain's citizenship, even though he was born in the Panama Canal, that Barack Obama's citizenship is still being disputed by a lot of people out there. And they simply would not do that if you were white.

SM (01:22:17):
I guess I had one more quote there, and then just in general, if anyone wonders why the anger of blacks is so often turned upon the white liberal is because, while professing to be a friend, the white liberal has generally turned out to be more white than liberal whenever blacks assert themselves.

JL (01:22:34):
Yeah.

SM (01:22:35):
Is that still true or was that (19)68?

JL (01:22:38):
Well, what is sadly true now is that when Kennedy died, the last liberal died. I do not see white liberals anymore. There is nobody, being from the state of Massachusetts, I certainly love Kennedy and miss Kennedy, because nobody spoke with the passion that he did about liberal causes, and there is nobody left, and that there are no white liberals anymore.

SM (01:23:11):
So that attack on the, remember there were several books out there, the L word. People were hiding from the L word. If they were hiding from the L word, then they were not really liberals.

JL (01:23:21):
They are not really liberals.

SM (01:23:23):
If you are proud to be a liberal, you stand up for being a liberal. And remember too, that in the (19)60s, the anti-war movement was against the liberal Johnson, as well as Richard Nixon. So, there was no liberal, conservative, did not matter. And then whites can never be accepted as allies with Blacks until they get rid of their arrogance, which leads them to think that they are greater authorities on Blacks and Blacks themselves until they stop going to the Daniel Moynihan or come to the ghetto and learn for themselves. Is that your direct relation to the Moynihan report?

JL (01:23:57):
That was in relationship to the Moynihan Report, but it is also just in general. The attitude certainly was, much more in the (19)60s, of the whites knew better than we did. And so, it was an attitude that said, well, you should go slow. You are trying to go too fast. And certainly, that was the attitude of the New York Times and a lot of the liberal journals of the time about the activities of the Civil Rights Movement. Slow down, be patient, what have you. Well, you know, you are not the ones being discriminated against. And whether or not, I certainly think that attitude has changed a lot, that as Black people, we have asserted our authority over our experience. And I think that for the most part, that is respected these days. So that quote would not apply as much now as it certainly did in 1968.

SM (01:25:04):
And then you also said something that I think is another. You have got some unbelievable quotes in here. "In Black culture. It is the experience that counts not what is said". That is a quote from you.

JL (01:25:18):
Yeah. I am not certain. Yeah. Well, I mean, you certainly have me at a disadvantage because you have read the book certainly far more recently than I have.

SM (01:25:26):
I almost memorized it. It is so good. I wish in graduate school.

JL (01:25:35):
I am certainly flattered.

SM (01:25:35):
Well, if I was a professor in graduate school right now, I would require students to read your book because, I am a higher education person, I believe they are not being taught anything about the history of higher education, about what happened back then. It is all about theory, and I am tired of it.

JL (01:25:53):
Yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah. Yeah.

SM (01:25:53):
Theory-theory, theory. And you got to know your history. And if you do not know your history and theory's only good until you get into the job, then you just simply, you have got to do your job.

JL (01:26:05):
Tell me about that. Yeah.

SM (01:26:06):
In your own words, could you define Black power?

JL (01:26:16):
Well, Black power was very simply the belief that Blacks could be in control of the institutions, of their communities, as well as be in control of the cultural and political definitions by which they are know.

SM (01:26:46):
You also mentioned in the book, and again, I have got you at a disadvantage because you have not referred to it in a while, but you also mentioned about Dr. King, that he did not "condemn black power outright, but sought to temper with love. It is important for the Negro to gain black power". But the term Black power is unfortunate because, this is Dr. King, "Black power's unfortunate because it gives the impression of black nationalism. We must never seek power exclusively for the Negro, but the sharing of power with white people". And this is Dr. King speaking again, and "any other courses exchanging one form of tyranny for another. Black supremacy would be equally as vile as white supremacy." Then you state "that is what white folks want, wanted to hear". All right. Those are Dr. King's thoughts. What are your thoughts on those thoughts?

JL (01:27:35):
Well, I would certainly, subsequent to that, to me in the (19)70s, I did write things in essential agreement with Dr. King. That certainly Black nationalism, as it evolved, was basically substituting the word black for the word white. It was simply white nationalism warmed over as it were. And so that essentially, there is no substantive difference between any kind of nationalism. Nationalism is always looking inward. It is always exclusionary. It is certainly, you know, you created them and an us kind of situation. And invariably you can have conflict. And so that now, I would certainly, well, as I did in the (19)70s. The (19)70s, I came much closer to agreeing with things King said than I did when he was alive.

SM (01:28:42):
A very important thing because you became a Jew at a certain point in your life, and you wrote another great book that I read quite a few years back on this, that you wrote. And what is interesting is, if you may recall on Sunday morning when Charles Kuralt was alive in the nineties, they had a whole program on Sunday morning looking at the history of the relationship between African Americans and Jewish Americans and how people were starting to forget that history as people were passing away. And so, a gentleman with a lot of money put together that conference down at the Carter Center. And so, the whole program was about interviews, and James Farmer was there. I know Rabbi Heschel's daughter was there looking at that historic relationship between the two groups because of the incident of Jesse Jackson and other events that were kind of splitting these groups. Young people may have thought they were historic enemies when in reality they were friends. Could you, in your own words, a person who, not only through your religion, but through your here history as an African-American, the important relationship between African-American is the Jewish Americans from the get-go in the Civil Rights Movement?

JL (01:30:03):
Well.

SM (01:30:03):
The partnership.

JL (01:30:07):
I am one of those who, since, from that point of view, I think that the extent the relationship between Blacks and Jews has always been exaggerated. It has been a relationship primarily between segments of the Jewish middle class and the Black middle class. It never was a relationship that involved the Black lower classes or the black working classes, nor the Jewish working classes. I mean, there were riots in Harlem in 1929 because Jewish storekeepers would not hire a Black person at stores. Same thing happened in Chicago in the 1930s. And so, I really think that it's such a distortion of the history of blacks and Jews, relations between black and Jews, and it paints a much more rosy picture of black-Jewish relationships than actually existed. Black anti-Semitism has always existed in the Black community, in black urban areas. And it came to the surface with Minister Farrakhan. Well, it came to the surface with Malcolm X and then with Minister Farrakhan in the 1980s. It was nothing new. It's been there all the time. So, I have also written about this. I just think the picture has been greatly, greatly distorted. The black Jewish connection was never as rosy as we have been led to think.

SM (01:31:49):
It is interesting because I interviewed David Garrow over at Princeton when he was here, and I mentioned that Rabbi Heschel was a very close friend of Dr. King and had a great influence. And he said, I am going to correct you on that. And he said, yeah, they were friends, but he did not have that great influence on Dr. King. And I was always under the assumption that Rabbi Heschel was one of the first people that persuaded King to give that speech in (19)67 on Vietnam. And he kind of, well, he did not say yes or no to that, but he kind of lessened the importance of that relationship. In your view, was Rabbi Heschel and Dr. King very close friends?

JL (01:32:23):
My sense is that they knew each other, and certainly Dr. King was going to go to Passover at Rabbi Heschel's home when he was killed that weekend. But I am fairly good friends with Susanna Heschel and Susanna never mentioned the name that her father and Dr. King were close friends.

SM (01:32:51):
Oh, okay. Could you talk a little bit about your WEIA radio days? A little bit about your WEIA radio days.

JL (01:33:06):
We are past 5:30.

SM (01:33:08):
Oh my god. We are. Okay. Could you have 10 more minutes?

JL (01:33:14):
10 minutes, tops.

SM (01:33:16):
Okay then now I am not sure if I... Just briefly talk about how you became a radio disc jockey and what you did.

JL (01:33:25):
I was on, I had a show on BAI from 1968 to 1975. I basically got the show, those were my day as a focus singer and I had appeared on other shows in the radio station, and for whatever reason they liked me and began to offer me airtime substituting for people who were sick on vacation and what have you. I got my own show and basically it was a live show, two hours, and I would interview people on the air. For a while, the show was a place where Blacks could appear on the air without fear of being treated as a hostilely by an interviewer. The place where they come and express their views without any fear being condemned for those views. I would read the paper on the air, I would play music on the air. It was pretty much, what do I want to do? I really enjoyed the time I was on the air. I did Thursday evening show for a while and then I switched to a morning show, 7:00 to 9:00 in the morning and I really had a lot of fun when I was on the air.

SM (01:34:45):
Do you think that the boomer generation that has a problem with healing, that they will go to their graves like the Civil War generation, as a generation not truly healed from the tremendous divisions that tore apart the nation in their youth or young adults?

JL (01:35:03):
I have no idea. I have no idea.

SM (01:35:04):
The divisions between Black and white and?

JL (01:35:06):
And I have no idea.

SM (01:35:09):
Do you do not think see that? Well, I know that when Jan Scruggs wrote the book To a Heal Nation, he hoped that the Vietnam and Memorial would do that to help not only the veterans, but the generation itself. Have you been to the wall?

JL (01:35:22):
I have. I have.

SM (01:35:26):
What was your first reaction when you went to the wall and what was the impact? What were you thinking? Especially as a person who had been to Vietnam.

JL (01:36:38):
When I was in North Vietnam, I did not go to South Vietnam, but I was very moved by the wall itself and I was also very, very saddened by what a waste of lives. What the hell did those guys die for? They do not know. I do not know. And just one of all my classmates from college name is there, and it is like I was just saddened by the waste of the of lives. I do not know that we heal anything in this country as long as we do not take responsibility for what we have done and what we do. As a nation, we have not taken responsibility for the treatment of Native Americans. We have not taken responsibility for slavery. There are so many things that we have not taken that we have done that have been wrong and we have not taken responsibility for them. And until we do, I do not know that we can heal.

SM (01:36:57):
Yeah. When the historian’s kind of look at a period, it is usually about 50 to 75 years after an event happens. I know some of the best books now are being written on World War II and that is about 75 years. Well, 50 to 75 years after. What do you think historians and scholars will say about the boomer generation, the (19)60s, the movements, the period, the 65-year period between 46 and 2011, because boomers are turning 65 for the first time this year. What do you think they will say about this period and its impact on the nation?

JL (01:37:40):
Honestly, there is really no way I can respond to that. I mean, the changes that occur in the time period that you talk about are so extraordinary and so huge, and it is such a complex period and it's getting more complex. Honestly, do not know what they are going to say. I really, really do not.

SM (01:38:17):
And my last question is basically the last question on the last page is really about how important was music in the Black protest movement and the Black Power movements? I just got a list here of some of the people that I think were big during the period of the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s. But as a musician yourself, and I know I think you performed with Pete Seeger.

JL (01:38:42):
Oh yeah, I did, yeah.

SM (01:38:43):
I mean, as an entertainer, really a person, you are an artist, you're a photographer, you are an entertainer and you are a great scholar, you're a professor, a teacher, an intellect. But how important was music on shaping the period?

JL (01:38:58):
Well, for music was certainly very, very, it is extremely important. Certainly, this Civil Rights Movement I do not think would have had the stuff it did without the music because the music certainly brought people together. A typical mass meeting, you sang for an hour or so and just singing melded together, people who were very afraid about going out on demonstration the next day. And the singing together certainly helped to helped them mitigate their fears as well as in jail situations, people singing it. Certainly, being able to sing, "I ain't afraid of your jail because I want my freedom," certainly was an expression of the spirit. And certainly, the spirit was one of, " You can put me in jail, but you cannot break my spirit." And so, the music was certainly important in the South and Civil Rights Movement. The music was certainly important when you come north and you have the protest song movement with Bob Dylan and Phil Ochs and Tom Paxton and people like that who were writing topical songs and protest songs. And then you go to groups like Country Joe and The Fish, and Jefferson Airplane and that whole era of rock music where the music was very, very politically oriented. And once again, the music was an expression of a different set of values. And then you find James Brown, I am Black and I am proud, and all kinds of things happening in Black popular music where once again, the music was much more an expression of values rather than Baby I love you and that kind of thing. And so, the music carries the 1960s. It is both an expression of the (19)60s as well as a source of energy and strength for the people who were actively involved.

SM (01:41:30):
As we end, you have been a teacher in the classroom all these years and then you were side by side with many of the students of the (19)60s. How have the students changed? What the students in the (19)60s and (19)70s were the students of say the (19)90s and today?

JL (01:41:49):
I retired in 2003 and I am no longer teaching, but certainly it was a great difference between the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s whose many of whose parents had been actively involved as opposed to the students of the (19)90s and into the decades of the new century. The present-day students are really through no fault of their own, are not politically involved. They are not that aware of what has happened or what happened in the past. And there are also a generation that at least as I knew them, resented being given responsibility and being held accountable for their behavior in the classroom. And I certainly could not fault them for being who they were, they were simply products of their parents and their teachers. But it certainly made it difficult for me as a teacher from a very-very different generation.

SM (01:43:18):
Yes. Well, geez, thank you very much. I really appreciate this, and you will see the transcript and I got your ones, the first three questions that you sent me and I am going to need two pictures of you.

JL (01:43:31):
Okay.

SM (01:43:34):
So, if you can email two, it could be a picture of you when you were younger or in your heyday or it could be a picture. I certainly want one current and you can mail those to me through email and I will be corresponding with you as in the summer because I am transcribing starting in end of March for about eight, nine months of hibernation of transcription. So, you will see your interview.

JL (01:43:58):
Okay. All right. Sounds good.

SM (01:43:58):
And I will tell you, it is an honor to talk to you.

JL (01:44:00):
Well thank you very-very much. Thank you very-very much.

SM (01:44:03):
And your students were so lucky to have you in the classroom. My goodness.

JL (01:44:05):
Well, thank you. I certainly enjoyed my years in the classroom. I did.

SM (01:44:11):
Well, you have a great day and thanks again.

JL (01:44:13):
You are very-very welcome and the same to you.

SM (01:44:15):
Yep. Bye.

JL (01:44:15):
Bye-Bye.

2011-03-02

Stephen McKiernan

Julius Lester

Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, photographer, educator, activist, and musician. Lester was raised in the South and Midwest and received his undergraduate degree in English from Fisk University in 1960. In 1961 he joined SNCC and became their photographer documenting events like Freedom Summer in 1964, the Civil Rights Movement, and the U.S. atrocities in Vietnam during a trip to the country with other members of SNCC. His photography is well documented at the Smithsonian Institution and is part of a permanent collection at Howard University. After teaching for two years at the New School for Social Research, he joined the faculty of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst in 1971 where he taught in the Afro-American Studies Department and the Judaic and Near Eastern Studies Department. Since 1968, Lester published 25 books of fiction, non-fiction, children's books, and poetry. His writings brought him much fame with numerous awards for both adult and children's books.

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Authors; Musicians; Political activists--United States; Lester, Julius--Interviews

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