Interview with Ronald Bayer

Bayer, Ronald ; Gashurov, Irene

Ronald Bayer, PhD, is professor and co-chair for the History & Ethics of Public Health at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University Medical Center. His research focuses on issues of social justice and ethical matters related to AIDS, tuberculosis, illicit drugs and tobacco. He is an elected member of the Institute of Medicine of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, and has been a consultant to the World Health Organization on ethical issues related to public health surveillance, HIV and tuberculosis. He worked closely with Dr. Mathilde Krim, the founder of amfAR.

2018-01-27

In Copyright

2018-01-26

Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni

70:44 minutes

Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Ronald Bayer
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 26 January 2018
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(Start of Interview)

IG: 00:00
Okay, so please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are, right.

RB: 00:06
So, I am Ronald Bayer. My birth date is January 16, 1943 just celebrated my 75th and we are at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University in New York City on January 27, 2018.

IG: 00:25
Where did you grow up?

RB: 00:27
Where? I grew up on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, before it was cool. I grew up on 10th Street and Second Avenue. It was a lower middle-class, working-class neighborhood. My- one of my funniest memories of that period of growing up was that I thought when people got older, they no longer spoke English. They had a different language. They had a different language. As they got older so old, people spoke Yiddish, they spoke Italian, they spoke Greek. They did not speak English. They aged into that language. Because I never met an old person who spoke English. So, it was an immigrant neigh- you know, nation- neighborhood of immigrants, Ukrainians, Italians. My building was an apartment house. My dad, my mother, was a milliner who worked from the- she stayed home for a while after I was born. But does she work in virtually a hat making factory for making women's hats, and then eventually moved over to B. Altman's department store, where she did custom hats for people buying fancy gowns and stuff. And my dad was a civil servant. Neither of them finished high school. My mother was born in Europe and came here when she was six. My father's parents came from Russia, and my grandfather, who's an Orthodox Jew, lived with us.

IG: 02:08
Where in Russia did, they come from?

RB: 02:12
Oh, I am sure it was like Lithuania someplace over there.

IG: 02:16
Russian Empire.

RB: 02:17
Yeah, the Russian Empire. And, I mean, the most important thing about that memory for me is that, although my parents never went to high school, my mother had very high cultural aspirations, and she took me to the Metropolitan Opera when I was nine years old. And she, you know, I knew always that I was going to college. I did not even know college I did not even know college was, but I knew I was going to college. I went to Stuyvesant High School, which then was on 15th Street, is now down at the Old-World Trade Center area, where I met lots of other kids whose parents had, I mean, some had parents who went to college, but a lot of the friends were first gens. They think they call them now and-and so [phone rings] when I- this is my wife, hello, and I guess what leads into the focus of our conversation is my last years in high school, the-the demonstrations at Woolworths around the country were taking place, so the sit ins had already begun in the south. And I remember on Saturday mornings going to a Woolworth on Broadway and Eighth Street to picket. I actually I was supposed to be going to synagogue, and I snuck out and went to picket, and I ultimately had to confess, but I did not get much flack for it. So that is my growing up, and I-I knew I was going to wait to college, and my parents did not have lots of money, and some count- and I somehow, I knew I wanted, I did not want, to go to City College or Queens College, and we did not have money for tuition. And so, I guess a counselor of some kind that Stuyvesant said, "Well, this is relatively new school." It had not yet moved to the new campus was just the process of moving, and it is, you know, it will be a campus out of town. It will be very different from being in the city, but, and it turned out that it had become kind of a go to place for people who, like me, who had aspirations but did not want to stay in the city, and did not have the money to go to private university, I think I got a New York State Scholarship, which paid part of my tuition, and then I landed in what is it called. It is not what is the town where the campus is? It is not Binghamton. It is Vest- Vestal. I landed in Vestal in those years. Glenn Bartle was the president, and had a hugely strong, I remember the correct the first two-year curriculum was, you know, they had a kind of a required course called Literature and Composition, which had used reading from the Greeks all the way in the sec- through the second year James Joyce and whatever it was like, built, I think, on the model of the University of Chicago in places where there was a strong core curriculum. And I felt liberated being there, I kind of met people from all different- I mean, most of my friends, actually, in the beginning, were New Yorkers, and that is one of the things that happened about Harpur. At that point, a lot of New Yorkers, first generation college kids came there, and it was the teachers were great, and the classes were small and-and that is where my, you know, stronger political consciousness began to emerge.

IG: 06:09
Tell us about that.

RB: 06:10
Yeah, well, I actually have a memory, and you probably can go online to find the stories about this. I think it was my second year. There was at that point a committee of the Congress called the house un–American Activities Committee, which was investigating so called subversives. It had its heyday during the McCarthy era, but they really went after left wing people, and if anyone-anyone who believed in civil liberties and civil rights was appalled by how they operated. People before called before the committee. They invoked the Fifth Amendment. They were held in contemporary Congress. And somehow, I do not know how I learned about it, but we learned, I think, that a film about the house un–American Activities Committee called this is thing that I remember operation UAC. And it was a film basically designed to denounce the opponents of the house un–American Activities Committee. And we learned that it was being shown at the American Legion Hall in Binghamton. So, a bunch of us went and they showed it. And as soon as soon as we finish, I got up and challenged it. I had never done anything like that before. I started reeling off all the- kind of lies. And then a few of my other friends jumped up and did the same thing, and it created a tumultuous situation. We were basically told to get out. It made the front page of the Binghamton

Third speaker: 07:43
Press & Sun-Bulletins.

RB: 07:45
Yeah, right. It was on the front page.

IG: 07:47
What year was this? Do you remember?

RB: 07:49
It had to be either (19)61 or (196)2.

Third speaker: 07:55
When were you in Binghamton, Harpur College?

RB: 07:58
Oh, from (19)60 to (19)64. Yeah, I came in the fall of (19)60 so. And I was startled. I mean, I mean, one of the newspapers was more liberal than the others, but it really made it sound like we were wild and-and I actually got called into some dean's office asked why I had done it, and did I think my behavior was appropriate? And I learned afterwards that she said-

RB: 08:29
I said it was important to do, you know, they are taking away our constitution. You know, it was linked to my concern about liberal leftish causes, because the only people the committee was going after were, you know, they went after people like Arthur Miller and, you know, writers and whatever. So, I kind of, you know, it, kind of, I got my-

IG: 08:29
What did you say?

IG: 08:59
Did you know about Arthur Miller? Did you know about these titans of-

RB: 09:04
Yes, I did [crosstalk] I did because when I was growing up, my best childhood friend, a guy named Paul Solman, who sometimes you may see on the on the TV hour, on Channel 13. He does business reporting, but he came from very left-wing family. He was my neighbor, and his father was an artist, and he was actually the one to brought me to my first Woolworth demonstration, and he- Arthur Miller's daughter was in his class at the Choate School House [Choate Rosemary Hall], which was a progressive private school.

IG: 09:45
Which daughter?

RB: 09:47
A daughter of Arthur Miller.

IG: 09:51
Because there is one who is married to Daniel Day Lewis. She may have- Yeah.

IG: 09:58
SDS?

RB: 09:58
I have never met the daughter, no but I spent a lot of time in Paul's apartment with his parents. They were Dodger fans, which is what left wing Jewish people were, and the mother smoked cigarettes and wore jeans. No one wore jeans in the 1950s and I got a lot of political education in their apartment, some of which I accepted, some of which I-I did not. I cannot remember when I cannot remember actually, whether I, whether I was in high school when this happened? Yes, no, this is later in college. I think there was a, let me see- I cannot remember, let me, let me just jump into something else. So, the other thing that was a kind of way in which people- there was already, when we got there in 1960 already a group called some socialist club.

RB: 10:01
No SDS came later. This was a, this was a local group of- they were, they were like juniors and seniors when I got there, and it was called the Social of something club, and they were pretty far left, and they had a- an advisor, who is a very famous social democrat named Kurt Shell, who was a professor of economics at Harpur, and he did not always agree with them, but he provided them with- because he believed in freedom of speech and whatever so but all of us, the younger people who had just come up from New York, used to meet every Friday night in a dormitory lounge, I cannot remember what it was called Dingman hall or something, and sang folk songs. And this sang folk songs with guitars. I did not play guitar, but I knew a lot of the songs. And we sang union songs. We sang solidarity forever, Pete Seeger type songs, and so and that was almost a routine on Friday nights to get together and sing these songs. And we brought people in who had never heard of these things before, who came became part of our world. There are- I actually had a few names come up to mind. And whether you will ever find these people. I am not sure even whether sure even whether some of them are even alive anymore. There was a woman named Jane Lagutis who was in my class, who went to Hunter High School. A lot of people who were there were Stuyvesant or Bronx Science or Hunter so Jane Lagutis, who then became a professor someplace, think of English someplace in New York State. My roommate at one point was someone named Dick Sherman, whose father was a labor activist in the--it was called the local 1199 which at that point was mostly a pharmacy union. So, it was a kind of fantastic learning. And since I was going to be in political science, it all seemed to fit together. And there was one other big demonstration that I remember, and that is-- bunch of us on how we kind of found the bandwidth to do this. We-we rented a bus to go to Washington, DC for a demonstration. It was not an anti-war demonstration because the war was a done then it was a demonstration supporting an end to nuclear testing. And I remember, we went down on a bus overnight to Washington, and we got to- we stayed in a church someplace and slept. We brought sleeping bags or something. We slept on the church. And I remember, I cannot remember who it was. The person who greeted us at this church was, he was an African American minister who may have just been stopping by. I do not know. I keep thinking- it cannot be, but I somehow have this vague memory that it was maybe Martin Luther King, but I cannot remember if that is correct. So that was, you know, it was kind of exciting to be part of the beginnings, and the beginnings, really, that they did not- the big- there was no SDS branch at Harpur [inaudible] I am not sure when SDS began. I think it was a little later. It was at University of Michigan, I think. But we, you know, I kind of- it-it was what drove it was the Civil Rights Movement and what was happening in the south. And, you know, there were the-the kind of echo demonstrations that took place places like Woolworth and whatever. But I think some of my colleagues one summer, actually went to, I do not know, Maryland or Virginia. There was a guy who was very active. I was not really close friends with him, but he was actually more active than I-- his name was Martin Liebowitz. I cannot tell you kind of pulling up these names, I have not heard them in years. Again, I do not know whether any of these people are still around. You know, when there were, you know, Binghamton was hardly all left. I mean, there was, there were, I think there was a branch of the young Americans of freedom on campus. There were, I know, I cannot remember any [inaudible]. I know there must have been moments when there was strife between our people, and they used to be. There were never. There were not fraternities at that time at Binghamton. They were called social clubs, and the people in the social clubs tended to be much more conservative. They were like, you know, frat boys. And of course, we all smoke cigarettes in the dormitories and at our, at our, I guess, you know, these, we think, in the (19)60s, of folk songs called hoot nannies. And that was, you know, when people got together at Carnegie Hall or whatever, and there would be a lead singer like Pete Seeger, and but they were not, they were not just songs. They were kind of our political education, and there was a way of developing political commitment. And I never, I never felt the school, in any way tried to thwart us or suppress us. I mean, the event in Binghamton with the House on American Activities Committee, you know, it was bad publicity. I do not know if someone from the administration said we do not necessarily agree with how they behave, but we-we support their right to express themselves in-in tradition of American freedom, I do not think anyone ever said that, but I know why my face was splashed on the front page of the newspaper, and that was it.

IG: 18:10
You spoke of these activities giving you your political education. Was this political- did this political education involve any awareness of restrictions on the rights of women, of gays, of people of color?

RB: 18:36
Well, certainly people of color. I-I remember, you know, contemporary feminism begins in the late (19)60s. So, it is interesting looking back at the issue of, I do not think, and the-the first decision of the Supreme Court on birth control was 1963 I was already a junior that was Griswold versus Connecticut, where the Supreme Court ruled that women, couples-couples, had a right to have their doctor prescribe birth control devices. And in uh, so it is actually interesting that I do not think the women's issue ever came up in that way. I do remember something about men and women in those days, I was in a small class, and someone who became my kind of girlfriend for a while was in the same class, freshman class, and I was talking, and she said, "Do not you ever shut up?" [laughs] And in a way, I hear echoes of that now when women say, "You know, men were always the first one to take the stage, take to talk, and we have to fight our way onto the stage." Maybe it is not this quite the same, but so I remember this memory of this woman named Judy, and it was sort of, I guess what I was being blabbering, you know, you know I was, I was actually more like my mother than like my father always talking. So, and there was never an issue of gay stuff. I mean that too, all this, I mean this was the-the first major moment in in gay liberation began around the bar in the village. I think it was 1968 as well. And it was only in 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association decided that homosexuality was not a disease actually written about that.

IG: 21:04
I know.

RB: 21:06
So, I actually- so let me I actually think and so by the time I left, I really found- felt that I had my political wings, you know. And I felt so when I went to the University of Chicago for graduate school, and this is 1964 was the Goldwater election, I already felt that. And then we would get involved in demonstrations against the beginning of the war in Vietnam and draft and whatever I felt like I had already sort of been-this was not my first entry into politics. The other thing that isn't directly related to, you know, activism is that my education in terms of developing an interest in sort of socialist thought began in college. I, you know, I read my first marks. I read, you know, I just- it just seemed, you know, this is what, this is what you did. And I was a political scientist, and I took political theory classes, and I took, you know-

IG: 22:31
This is at Binghamton?

RB: 22:33
In Binghamton, mm-hmm. So, it all fit together, and that is why I went on to graduate school at the University of Chicago, but I remember feeling that I came to Chicago, which is a very powerful intellectual tradition. I came to Chicago from a place that was pretty unknown in those years, and I had classmates who were from Harvard and Yale and Princeton and, you know, Berkeley, I felt I came there intellectually and academically completely- I never felt, "Oh, I have a lot of catching up to do." And that was a great gift. I mean, you know, for a person who's the first person in his family to go to college, and who-who- Oh! And, I mean, I- how could I miss this? Of course, it was my, you know, my junior year when Kennedy was assassinated. And I remember that. I do not remember any politics around that. I uh-

IG: 23:48
How-how so?

RB: 23:49
Well, I mean, I-I remember the day I had- actually, there was a bank across from the campus at that point, on Vestal Parkway--was that, what it is called. And I was going to get some money out of the bank and-and nothing had happened yet. And the way back, I- someone was lowering the flag, and I could not understand what it was. And I went to the Student Union, and there, you know, and there is actually a picture of me in the yearbook of that year with a friend in the kind of cafeteria just staring at each other blankly listening to the news. And I remember those- the following days. I remember actually being it was around Thanksgiving time, and I remember being at a someone was- he was already living he had an apartment in town, and we were watching TV, and Oswald was being transferred from one prison to the other. Then Ruby came and shot him. And we watched this thing on TV, was an unbelievable thing to watch, you know, but I do not remember any- I do not actually remember. And I remember watching the funeral and stuff, but I do not remember, you know, what the political, what the political fallout was? I actually the other political, momentous political event that I remember in those years was the confrontation over Russian missiles in Cuba. And I remember really feeling that when I went to sleep that night, would we be would I wake up? It was very scary. I guess Russian ships were moving towards Cuba. America said, "If you cross this line," whatever, and then there was this backing off. And yes, we felt there was a lot of- I know among us, there was a lot of sympathy for Cuba and the Cuban Revolution. Cuban revolution is 1959 I think, or 1960 so I remember, I remember, you know, Cas- you know, those opposed to Castro, who are Cubans all seem to be like fascist reactionaries, I do not know. And the idea that the US government was going to try to overthrow the Cuban government, and they tried to with a- you know, with an invasion, that was a big moment of, I do not know what kind of demonstrations we had, but I know it was a big topic of anger and anxiety among us.

IG: 26:50
Were there any Cuban students that you know of at Harpur?

RB: 26:53
It was, it was very [crosstalk] It was very white.

RB: 26:58
A few Asians. Actually, a woman who went to Hunter High School, actually also who was first generation was there. Her last name was, I think it was Dottie Chin. I do not remember. It is amazing what you can you know, so and I did not- after graduating, most of us sort of dispersed. I did not- I remained friends for a while with one of my roommates who I think lives in the Albany area now--his name was Robert Puzak. I what- one of my roommates died many years ago. He was- actually came from a Republican family. I had never met a Republican, to tell you, he came from a Republican family upstate. He had had polio as a child. He was a brilliant English major. It was funny though he when he took them to go to graduate school, when he took the GRE, he got like 99th percentile in English, and he got like fourth percentile in math, no one had ever seen such a low score. And I, he did fine. He went on to someplace special, you know. So that was it. And I kind of, I, I am sorry I lost touch with those people. But you know-

IG: 26:58
Very white.

IG: 28:42
How would your classmates remember you from that time?

RB: 28:56
I think outspoken. I actually, I, you know, I-I-I-I think enough of-of oral history and the pitfalls of oral history not to kind of make things I feel I something about the-the wonderful wonders of oral history, but also some of the pitfalls of oral history, where people feel kind of impelled to make up a few stories that seem maybe they have not, maybe they did not. I do not want to do that because I think that- I mean, I think it is fair to say that I was a central figure in the, in the politics, I actually sort of interesting. It is a little different. But the- a year, my third year, I was a junior, a cousin of mine came to Harpur, and he was, he was not as political as I, but he- one spring day, who had been a long winter, he called together a bunch of people, and they had the first stepping on the coat celebration. His name was Larry Kressel. He unfortunately died some years ago of cancer, and there are pictures of him and people throwing that coat on the ground and jumping on them. So, it was a different kind that was, in a way, a celebration of life, you know-

IG: 31:07
Celebration of spring.

RB: 31:08
Yeah, yep. And I thought that was great. And he had, that was the class that had Andy Bergman in it, the filmmaker who might be worth trying to get. I do not know if he is Andy Bergman lives in New York. He was, he was the filmmaker who made Young Frankenstein. He made, oh, he was, at one point, like up, you know, among the- I would not say it, you know, sort of, he sort of seemed like the Woody Allen and his age or something.

Third speaker: 31:39
Is it more independent movies?

RB: 31:42
No, it was- he was, you know, he worked with Mel Brooks and-and, oh, Mel Brooks was in his movies. And if you look up his in Bergman, B, E, R, G, M, A, N, Andrew, and he might even remember me, because we were moved in the same sort of circles.

IG: 32:07
What did the campus look like at the time?

RB: 32:10
It was very small. There was where the library building was- it was the library and the faculty offices. It was only two stories high, across from it, sort of an L shaped brick building was the only where all the classes were, and there was the science building.

IG: 32:45
Where was the science building in relation?

RB: 32:47
it was between the academic building and the library. Everything was very spare. There were no- I think at some point we began to have the idea of planting new trees, because it seemed it was raw looking. I mean, all the buildings were new, and the dormitories were fine, and each dormitory there were four dormitories, then two women, two men. Dingman Hall, cannot remember the names of the other places, and they all had a big lounge.

IG: 33:18
Is that where you spent most of your free time-

RB: 33:22
No, the-the student, student union, where the cafeteria is- was, and there was a, oh yes, this is no longer there, I am sure. When you came down the central, what was then the central drive, there was a little bridge that separated the- that linked the Student Union and the dormitories, and it was supported by four pillars that were unusual because they-they were, they were normally these things supporting a little bridge. It was called the Esplanade, not there anymore. And so, the normally, you have a pillar that looks like this. You know, narrower top. No, yes, this is normally what you think of. And this had it came down like this. And it was just a design decision. It was not a very beautiful place. But I-I actually, you know, and I remember I had never seen fall leaves before. I mean, there are fall colors in New York, but not like I remember how incredible the hills were around the campus, you know, in the fall, it was just incredibly beautiful. So, you know, I mentioned that I had brought- I saw one of the groups I helped to found is called the International Relations club. Why we called that? I do not know. It was basically a way of talking about the political club. And we invited speakers to come. So, after many-many efforts, I-I contacted Eleanor Roosevelt, and I said, we would love you to come to talk and-and she said, you know, I guess I was in touch with her secretary, who said, Mrs. Roseville, speaking fee is, I do not know what she said, $3,000 $1,200 something like that. It was a long time ago, so that was a lot of money. And I said, unfortunately, we do not have any money we can pay for her airfare to-to Binghamton. And finally, I was persistent enough that she finally said, yes.

IG: 35:59
How were you persistent?

RB: 36:00
I kept writing, take no for a no, yeah. And I-I just said, you know, I described who we were, the nature of our students, the kind of students at the school. And she thought point, was writing a column, a daily column, for the New York Post from the New York Post was not a rag, and it was called my day. So, we got her, I do not know how we there was another person I remember bringing up who was. I cannot remember anything about her speech, no, but I remember her saying-

IG: 36:40
What was her demeanor?

RB: 36:42
Oh, she was talking about her years in the founding-founding of the UN that was it. Of course, we gave her corsage. And I actually remember that the person who ran the cafeteria made a special dinner for us, about 12 of us, and the main course was Chicken Kiev, which was, I do not even know chicken- I think it is, it is a breast of chicken wrapped around butter or something. So, the other person, we and I, actually, is it? I have a picture of it someplace. There was a very prominent left-wing journalist, not an apologist for the Soviet Union at all, but quite left, named I. F Stone, and he had a weekly newsletter. I. F. Stones Weekly, and we brought him to campus. So, we, I guess we tried to bring dissident- I mean, I do not know how many we did. I cannot remember, but we wanted to bring somewhat dissident voices to campus, and so those are the-

RB: 37:08
Was the president there to meet Eleanor Roosevelt?

RB: 37:59
I certainly know the dean was I at the airport, actually, and it was held the- her speech was held in the nicest, actually, I thought the nicest space on the old camp that campus those things was the auditorium. And there was a very beautiful auditorium, it seemed to me. It was wood peddled, sort of a little semicircular. It was in what was then the only academic building. It was out of using the gym, which, you know, sorry, big but ugly. So, I have stone whatever, and that is about it. I think I am trying to- no- so the years I was there was- they were the Kennedy years--right Kennedy and then Johnson becoming president in 1963 or (196)4. Oh, I do, yes. Oh, it did not happen there, but I that was also it was during that period that the-the big civil rights march on Washington took place, and we were actually shifting. Harpur had been on a semester system, and for reasons I never quite understood. They decided to go to a trimester system. So, in that transition year, which was actually the transition between my junior and senior years, there was a longer break, longer summer break, and I got a job, I do not know, some kind of stupid summer job in New York City-- just to make some money, and I remember taking a train down to the March on Washington, and I remember Martin Luther King's speech. I do not recall actually having met my Harpur colleagues while we were down there on the march. So, I do not think I was in touch with them about let us meet up or something. Well, there were no cell phones. The idea of meeting up in a crowd was a little different. So, I actually, I mean, I know this isn't about, you know, celebrating. I mean, I guess oral history sometimes we are about celebrating. But I-I think I was given the academic opportunity of a lifetime, and I sort of grew up. I, you know, started in college when I was, what, 16-17, I was 21 when I was just different. And-

IG: 40:53
Do you remember any, any professors who made a particular impression on you? Were they-

RB: 41:00
Yeah, well, they are all dead. No, yes. There was actually my Literature and Composition teacher- my first year was someone named. His last name was Huppe, H, U, P, P, E.

RB: 41:04
And he was fantastic. He was a Chaucer scholar. I remember that. And I remember learning from him how to recite the first lines of [citing in Middle English]. And I mean, what is this Middle English stuff? So, he was my teacher. And to have a man like that with 15 or 18 students in a room just discussing literature was fantastic, and I had a- there was an economist whose name was Peter Vukasin, who was really a great teacher. It was another teacher I- it is odd that I cannot remember the names of my political science teachers, although that was my field, I remember one of the things, one of the things that was interesting about that period is in every- well, there are only four dormitories. There was an apartment for a faculty member, and the dormitory I lived in, the professor was named- he was an English professor. I never had him as a teacher. His name was Peter Mattheisen [Paul Mattheisen], and it was a thing that the door of the faculty member department was virtually always open in the evening. So, I remember spending a lot of time hanging out down there. I think I do not have anything more to say. So, who are most of the people you are trying to reach out to kind of post me, after me, or...?

IG: 41:04
Yes.

IG: 43:26
They are graduates from the 1960s.

RB: 43:28
Okay.

IG: 43:29
So, it is a big range. We started with 1967 because there was a reunion for that year last year. So, we tapped some of those people, and we have conducted about-

Third speaker: 43:48
Six, seven, I think.

IG: 43:48
-interviews.

RB: 43:50
Was that [inaudible] who had organized that reunion from the (19)67? Do you know?

IG: 43:57
Of (19)67?

RB: 43:58
Yeah, the one you said, the first-

IG: 43:59
Well, the Alumni Association, but the Alumni Association, but the library, also had a luncheon for these graduates. Just tell us a little bit about what you do?

RB: 44:19
Now?

IG: 44:19
Now, and just tell us about some of the high points of your career.

RB: 44:27
So, after graduating from Harpur, I actually was lucky enough to get a Woodrow Wilson fellowship, and which supports graduate study, and I went to the University of Chicago for a PhD in political science. It was- those were heavy political days, but I and I was also a pretty devoted student, and um, I um, I-I became very interested in-I mean, I remember being at the University of Chicago and having professors like Hannah Arendt. You know when Hans Morgenthau and Leo Strauss, who's a founding figure of the very conservative intellectual, but I remember studying some Socratic dialog with him in a class where they went over every line and explicated it. And I-I got very involved in politics, actually. And I actually in one, one of the years, I guess, was 1967 there was a demonstration--it was before the Democratic Convention year. But I got was an anti- I guess it was an anti-war demonstration, yes, and in one of the main squares in Chicago, and they were trying to block us, and I was trying to move forward. Anyway, I got arrested, and I was clubbed by a cop, and I had my hand broken, and I was okay, but, you know, but it was not okay. Actually, I was in jail for about eight hours, and my-my school, my chair, the chair of my department, was very supportive, and they provided us with lawyers and but I kind of lost. Then I- my feet- I had committed myself to doing work on African politics, nations that were becoming liberated. And I- that was the moment was happening, Kwame Nkrumah in Ghana and Houphouet-Boigny in Ivory Coast or whatever. And I-I went to Africa. I was- I remember my advisor said, "Ron, if you are not going to do this dissertation, do not go. Do not do it for me. Do not go. Take a breath. Think about it. I said "No-no-no, I am going. I am going, I am going." And I went. And I really was completely- I did some research, but my heart was not in it. There were all these demonstrations back home against the war, and I wanted to do it. I actually organized demonstrations in Accra outside the American Embassy. Finally got invited to dinner by the ambassador, who basically told me to stop. So, my academic career took a kind of a bump, and I came back, and I spent two years trying to write the dissertation on trade unions in Ghana, and I just could not do it. And you know, those are the days of note cards. I had piles of note cards at my desk, and I would keep pushing them forward and pulling them forward at that point just because of [ talking to his colleague]

IG: 47:43
1015 minutes more.

RB: 48:03
Yeah, let us check I have- it is in. I make- what I may have to do is ask you to stay here, and then I will come- do you have an appointment right after this?

IG: 48:10
Not right after, we have an appointment at 1:30 on, I think 88th on Riverside.

RB: 48:16
Oh, you are going to be there. I live on 88th on Broadway. [laughs]

IG: 48:18
Oh really. Next door neighbors. He is another professor, but I am not quite sure, but he is not affiliated with Columbia.

RB: 48:28
Uh-huh. Well, the only one I know who lived here is a guy who taught English at [inaudible] I do not think he went Harpur.

IG: 48:35
His name is John Spiegel.

RB: 48:37
Oh, I know John Spiegel.

IG: 48:38
Really?

RB: 48:39
Yes, he was, he was a friend of Larry Kressels and whatever. Of course, you said that, [inaudible]. So, it is a meeting now, James [talking to his colleague]. Okay, so anyway, so anyway, I-I happened to get a job working one of the early methadone maintenance programs in New York. I knew enough my brother was sort of involved with drugs, and he knew a lot of people involved. So, I got involved working. I never wrote it about Africa. Okay, so I got a job working in the- this method on maintenance program, and suddenly I realized, oh, this is really interesting, drug use, psychiatry, law, criminal law, criminalization. And ultimately, the idea came to me about writing a dissertation about that. I studied, none of it in graduate school, and I wrote a very good dissertation. And when I finished, it was- I started graduate school 1964 was 1973 when I finished, but I have been working in this drug program for two years. I got an eventually, got a 1979 I got a post doc at a place called the Hastings Center, which was a bioethics research institute. I had never studied bioethics before, but I was interested in relation with law and psychiatry. That then I feel like Forrest Gump. That then led me to the- I got at this Hasting Center I- when I started working there, someone said, you know, you are really interested in law psychiatry, how values shape psychiatry. I have a great idea for a book, the decision of the American Psychiatric Association to declassify homosexuality as a disease I did not know anything about it. He said, I know all the major players, and I will get you access to them as for interviews. And so, I did it. It was my first book about homosexuality in American psychiatry. And it was sort of, kind of became entailing the history of that moment. It was a landmark. It, you know, built on gay liberation, women's movement, whatever. And then I- while working at the Hastings Center, it was 1983-(19)82 someone came to us who was on the board of trustees and said, there was this new disease. She was a scientist working at Sloan Kettering. This new disease has many ethical issues. The research ethics are incredibly complicated. Her name was Mathilde Krim. Mathilde Krim just died.

IG: 51:24
I know, I know, I know who that is.

RB: 51:26
And I just, actually, just went to her memorial service. So, Mathilde Krim gave us our first grant to do ethical work on HIV. I then became completely involved in writing about ethical issues, and all my work focused on HIV. [side conversation with colleague regarding meeting time] All my work and I actually got to know Mathilde Krim quite well. I- it is like she was both a formidable activist, a brilliant scientist, and very-very rich. Her husband owned, United Artists, the film company, and then he owned another film company. They had a townhouse on 69th Street between Madison Park. It is like out of movies. He walked into this house, and there was a spiral staircase, and there was a butler who opened the door, and there was a movie theater on the ground floor that is had about 80 because [inaudible] was a business. So, because she supported my work a lot, and then she created a foundation called the American Foundation for AIDS Research that a lot of my work was funded.

IG: 51:26
Were you attached to any university at that point?

RB: 51:39
No, I was still working at the Hastings Center. This is the final piece of luck. I had been asked to give a talk at the board meeting of Planned Parenthood in Washington, DC in 1986 or (198)7, I cannot remember the year, it was the first talk anyone had presented on the issue of women and HIV. And I knew something about the issues because of issues around pregnancy and the transmission of virus from mother to child. At any rate, in the audience was sitting who was on the Board of Trustees of Planned Parenthood [inaudible] named Alan Rosenfield. Alan Rosenfield was the dean of this school. He came up to me after the talk and said, "Have you ever thought of coming to Columbia?" I said, "Actually, I am interested in the possibility of moving. I have been at the Hastings Center for nine or 10 years. Yes, I am interested." "Well, come see me in my office." In the meantime, uh- and so when I was trying to figure out what to do, I went to see Mathilde Krim, and she and Arthur had dinner for me in their palace, and said her husband was on the board of, he was on the Board of Trustees of Columbia. So, he said, I think you should go to Columbia. So, it did not, it was not just a show over. I mean, I, you know, I had written a lot, but, you know, this depart the department I am in said, what was academic credentials? He does not do traditional work and whatever, but they- I am basically, Rosenfield basically [crosstalk]

IG: 54:35
Do- done your PhD by then?

RB: 54:37
Oh, yes, I finished my PhD. And I was actually, I had finished my finished my PhD in (19)76 and I worked at the Hastings Center until (19)80 until- I was a person. Oh, I finished. I had a postdoc, which was a year, and I am coming to the end of the year. I had already my book is already in galleries, and the director, a guy named Dan Callahan, says, "What are you doing next year?" I said, "I am not quite sure." He said, "Would you like a staff position here?" So again, look, and I grabbed it, and that opened the whole world of bioethics to me, which led to the research on HIV, which led to, we did the no one had done work on the ethics of infectious disease until that point, because infectious disease was not an issue in the US. Bioethics was all about the clinical relationship. So, I, so then I came to Columbia in 1988 so it is now 30 years. Yeah, 30 years. And I came with the idea of teaching a course, oh, I came with a grant from the American Foundation for AIDS research, a five year, you know, these schools require a lot of grant money, a five-year fellowship to continue work on the ethics of AIDS. So, I came here, and I had to think about what courses I was going to teach. So, I decided I would teach a course on the ethics of on HIV, the age of epidemic. By that time, I had written a book about the AIDS epidemic, and then I developed one of the first courses in the United States on the ethics of public health, not the ethics, but not bioethics, not the ethics of the doctor patient relationship, but how you think about the ethical challenges raised in doing public health policy, whether it is about smoking or diet or-or motorcycle helmets or seat belts or or-or infectious disease or justice [crosstalk]

IG: 56:46
So, what are the- you know, just give us a glimpse into what the ethics-

RB: 56:52
Well, for example, yeah. I mean, for example-

IG: 56:54
Smoking.

RB: 56:55
Well, you know, people-people choose to smoke. They choose to smoke for many-many reasons, because they have been pushed into it by business. They have been seduced into it as children. They become addicted. On the other hand, stopping people from smoking because it hurts them is problematical if you believe that competent adults have a right to make all kinds of decisions, including to refuse therapy if even though that means they are going to die. So, the question about smoking was preeminently how far the state can go in-in pushing, nudging, shoving people to lead a healthier life. It is not an accident that most of the original aids efforts control efforts focused on innocent victims, non-smokers, who were in the presence of smokers and children where there is no ethical problem, you have no right to infect the air of smoker a non-smoker. But why do they focus on that when the real issue was 500,000 people dying every year smoking because it touched a raw nerve in America. We have come very far. We go pretty far now. We banned smoking on parks and beaches. We banned smoking in public housing projects. We this is so called a smoke free campus, and some of it, I think, is a stretch in terms of the harm to others part. So, tracing that arc, look, America is the only country that permits- does not regulate smoking advertising because of our First Amendment. From an ethical point of view, there should be no advertising, but our constitution is different, and it is not simply because business controls the story. I mean, the ACLU defends the right of tobacco companies to advertise.

IG: 58:46
How interesting.

RB: 58:46
And the other story that is paradigmatic is how you get to a position where you say that someone wearing a motorcycle not-not only is advised you, but must wear a motorcycle helmet or be fined. And the way the case was typically and we knew that people did not wear helmets smashed in their heads. They died more frequently. They had severe brain injuries. But when the move to mandate motorcycle helmets started, and there was a federal law that said, if you do not have motorcycle law, you do not get federal funding for Highway Safety. The argument was, if you get caught in an accident, if you are in an accident, then an ambulance has to pick you up, take you to a publicly funded emergency room, and where you may have to stay and then be hospitalized, where you may be have Medicaid, and then you may be crippled and have to be on public assistance. How can you say that it only affects you? So, it was a very stretch of harm to others in terms of economic burden. So those are the kinds of issues I love to teach about, and I have taught these courses for a long time. We revamped the curriculum here about eight years ago so that all incoming 400 students take a common curriculum. It is a [inaudible], and the first among the first six lectures they get, all 400 of them are the ethics of public health that I do. A colleague does the history of public health, someone does human rights and public health, and they do what they learn, Biostatistics and whatever. But I actually feel that one of my great contributions academically is that I sort of helped I am not the only one who does it now at all, but to spark the interest in the ethics of public health, not simply the ethics of clinical research. And that is my concerto. [laughs]

IG: 1:00:42
Wonderful. Do you have any- I think that we are going to wrap up soon.

RB: 1:00:49
Okay.

IG: 1:00:52
So just in general, what do you think that there any lessons that you learned from your time at Harpur.

RB: 1:01:01
Um, I- there were two things. I think I have no idea what the socioeconomic mixes of Harpur in this moment, and it was basically a white school when I went there, although, as I said, there were a few Asians, but there were lots of first-generation college students, not all, but enough. Kids who came from New York who would have gone to one of the city colleges, City College Queens, Brooklyn. I think creating a place that is- brings first generation college students as a mission, not just if they happen to apply, but as a mission. It is a great thing to do as a public university, and it is a great thing to do for what you- the kind of context you create. I know it is you know, may sound like, you know, old story now everyone wants, you know, campus that has diversity on it, and sometimes the diversity language seems to be a little kind of hot air stuff. I mean, the talk about diversity, but I actually think creating, making it a mission to draw people who are first generation people, and hopefully being able to bring dreamers in and to protect them. Columbia has been very good in its public statements about dreamers, and I think that so. The other thing is, and I do not know how much it remained, I think the people who created the curriculum at Harpur back then were very influenced by the idea that all incoming students should have some kind of core curriculum. We had. It was either one or two years of a social science sequence and wanted, and at least I know it was two years of literature and composition. It was mostly literature, and you had to do some writing, but it was literature. It was the most I mean; I am not a literature person. The fact that I read everything from Chaucer to Flaubert and James Joyce as part of a standard curriculum that was, it was viewed as, this is what everyone with an education need. I thought that was just spectacular. There is so much emphasis now on specialization, on skills, building

Third speaker: 1:03:57
Standardized.

RB: 1:03:58
Yeah, and I kind of yeah, so I actually, I understand all the pressures to do that. I see it here because, you know, our students in a school of tuition here at Columbia is about $60,000 a year when you get an MPH, you do not. It is not like getting an MD. And, you know-

IG: 1:04:19
[inaudible] MD students get an MPH?

RB: 1:04:20
Oh, absolutely, yes-yes-yes, that helps. But when our students get out, the income they can expect is very different from an MD and-and they and they want to make sure they have a job, something skills. So, I teach in a unit that teaches history and ethics in public health. We admit, in our department, we admit 150-130 students a year, [inaudible] of them choose to do this. There are many-many important things they can learn. But and I understand why, because they, when they go to an employer, they want to say, I know how to do this statistical method. I knew that statistical method. I know how to run a clinical- I know how to run a focus. Group and how to do things. So, I understand it, but it is for the same reason that many universities they have- they are getting rid of, you know, their universities get rid of their- I mean, I imagine you could count on hand the number of universities that teach Latin or Greek anymore, and there are even universities that have given up on Roman, you know, Italian, they may have Spanish and French and German and now Chinese, but there are many schools that just do not have comprehensive literature departments anymore. They are not supportable and-and you know from your time at-at Columbia that these places run on grants and gifts. You know, did you hear about this big gift they got from this guy, Vagelos [Dr. Roy Vagelos]?

IG: 1:05:46
I heard about it. I also heard about the green gift to the neurosciences.

RB: 1:05:54
Yes, right.

IG: 1:05:55
[crosstalk] 200 million.

RB: 1:05:56
Yeah.

IG: 1:05:57
And actually, Dr. Fishback and I worked on the original proposal-

RB: 1:06:02
Really?

IG: 1:06:03
-Neuroscience Institute.

RB: 1:06:04
Yeah, it is, you know, it is down on 100- but no, this guy, Vagelos, was the head of Merck.

IG: 1:06:09
Yes.

RB: 1:06:09
He gave $250 million to the school so that, no, this is interesting. He also built a building there, which is kind of a very modern building, two $50 million the income of which is to make sure that no student graduates medical school with debt. [crosstalk]

IG: 1:06:13
That is tremendous.

RB: 1:06:23
You know, he was the head of Merck, so he is very rich. And at any rate, I have felt, you know, as I said, I just celebrated my 75th birthday. You know, I am, I feel really privileged in many ways, but I, you know, I kind of being dogged and being ready to jump at opportunities, and sometimes just being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time,

IG: 1:07:07
Is that, is that one of the important life lessons?

RB: 1:07:11
To me, it is. I cannot say that I would have been here had I, you know, for example, what would have happened had I trudged through and finished my dissertation on African Trade Unions, I would have been, I think, a kind of mediocre academic teaching political science- I could not do it, and I- it, it took a lot to decide I am not going to do that this. I am going to do another one. And I got a lot of you know, people around me were appalled that I was not writing my dissertation. My- I had a friend in the methadone clinic, a nurse, who said, you know, she was in a group therapy. She said, “You know, Ron, there is a guy in my group. He is 45 years old, and he still says he is writing his dissertation.” And people in the group do not know where to look when they hear him say it, because it is clearly not going to happen and he cannot face it. Do not let that happen to you. It is kind of scary when you hear that from people, because you know that you could just slip through the cracks.

Third speaker: 1:08:15
I changed my topic. I know the feeling. So, I was doing something. I took all the prep work to do- to write that. When it was time to write it, I could not do it. I went through what you went through, and I wrote something totally different.

RB: 1:08:32
Are you Russian, or?

Third speaker: 1:08:33
I am Turkish.

RB: 1:08:34
Turkish, uh, [speaking Turkish]. Actually, got some dirty words too. I had a Turkish girlfriend once at the University of Chicago.

Third speaker: 1:08:47
Oh yeah.

RB: 1:08:49
Her name is Ipek.

Third speaker: 1:08:51
Yeah, means silk.

RB: 1:08:55
Okay, I really have to [inaudible]. Yeah.

IG: 1:08:57
Thank you so much.

RB: 1:08:58
Thank you very much.

(End of Interview)

2018-01-26

Irene Gashurov

1964

Ronald Bayer

Ronald Bayer, PhD, is professor and co-chair for the History & Ethics of Public Health at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University Medical Center. His research focuses on issues of social justice and ethical matters related to AIDS, tuberculosis, illicit drugs and tobacco. He is an elected member of the Institute of Medicine of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, and has been a consultant to the World Health Organization on ethical issues related to public health surveillance, HIV and tuberculosis. He worked closely with Dr. Mathilde Krim, the founder of amfAR.

Audio

Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in public health; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni in AIDS research; Harpur College – Alumni at Columbia University Medical Center; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area

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Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in public health; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni in AIDS research; Harpur College – Alumni at Columbia University Medical Center; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area