112
10
1775
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Universal Viewer / Rosetta
Rosetta audio media
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 sound disc
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:08:54
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153842">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153842</a>
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
U.S. Air Force Band concert, November 7, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-11-07
Description
An account of the resource
Held November 7, 2009.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-11-07
Rights
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In copyright
Type
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sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4df973174209097cf0a9514935d467f9.pdf
84b40172d2738eb80a9c2c22ff83d100
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMTON
U N I V E R S I T Y
S T A T E U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K
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LINK ORGAN SERIES
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AMERICAN G U I L D O F O RGANISTS
Bruce Neswick
Organist
Sunday, November 8, 2009
4:00 pm
F i r st P resbyterian Church
Binghamton, Ne w York
A
�ABOUT T H E P ER F O RM ER
& PROGRAM zg
BRUCE NESWICK is the recentlyappointed Director of Music at the
Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York City, having previously
Toccata (1940)
Leo Sowerby
(18951968)
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and as Organist and Choirmaster at Christ Church Cathedral in
Lexington, Kentucky; Holy Trinity Anglican Church in Geneva,
Switzerland; and St. Paul’s Cathedral in Buffalo, New York.
Siciliano for a High Ceremony (1953)............ Herbert Howells
(18921983)
:
Choral I in Emajor (1890) ...........
Active in the field of church music, Mr. Neswick holds the Fellowship
degree from the Royal School of Church Music, for whom he has
conducted several courses for boy and girl choristers. He has served on
the faculties of and performed for several church music conferences,
including Master Schola, the Mississippi Conference, the Association of
Anglican Musicians, Westminster Choir College Summer Session, the
Montreat and Westminster Conferences of the Presbyterian Association
of Musicians, the Disciples of Christ Musicians, the Conference of
Lutheran Church Musicians, the Sewanee Church Music Conference,
Organ Alive! and the Evergreen Conferen ce.
. ........César Franck
(18221890)
& INTERMISSION « x
Improvisation in Four Movements
(based upon hymn tunes of the Church Year)
~ GuilbaultThe’rien Organ, 1996 –
served as the Canon for Music at the Cathedral of St. Philip, Atlanta;
and, prior to that, as the Assistant OrganistChoirmaste r for the Girl
Choristers at Washi ngton National Cathedral and Director of Music at
St. Albans School for Boys and the National Cathedral School for Girls;
I
Mr. Neswick has been commissioned to compose for seve ral performers
and churches throughout the United States, and his organ and choral
music is published by Paracle te, AugsburgFortress, Selah, Vivace, Hope,
Plymouth and St. James’ presses. His skill at improvisa tion garnered him
three first prizes fro m the 1989 San Anselmo Organ Festival; the 1990
American Guild of Organists’ National Convention in Boston; and the
1992 Rochette Concours at the Conservatoire de Musique in Geneva,
Switzerland.
A graduate of Pacific Lutheran University and of the Yale School of
Music and Institute of Sacred Music, Mr. Neswick’s teachers have
included Robert Baker, David Dahl, Gerre Hancock, Margaret Irwin
Brandon and Lionel Rogg. A Fellow of the Ame rican Guild of Organ ists,
Mr. Neswick has served the Guild in many capacities, including chapter
dean, regional convention chair, regional education coordinator, member
�o f t he na tiona l no m i na t i ng co m m i ttee a n d m e m be r o f t h e na tiona l
Fu tu re Concerts in t he Link Organ Series
As a recitalist, Mr. Neswick has performed extensively throughout the
United States and Eu rope and has been a featured performer a t national
and regional conventions of the American Guild of Organists. In 1994,
he played the opening convocation for the national AGO convention
held in Dallas, Texas, and he was a featured art ist at the national AG O
convention in Seattle in 2000. He is represented by Phillip Truckenbrod
Concert Artists.
A B a c h Celebration: T h e Complete Orga n Works
improvisation competition committee.
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Organ enthusiasts will be pleased to know the next concert of
the series “A Bach Celebration: The Complete Organ Works” will
be presented by Dr. Jonathan Biggers on Sunday afternoon,
December 6 at 4p m on the new Hellmuth Wolff organ located
in Fine Arts Room 21 at Binghamton University. This concert
will be repeated on Thursday evening, December 10 at 8pm,
and will feature organ music written by Bach for the Advent
and Christmas seasons. Two further Bach concerts will be
presented during t he Spring semeste r, the first on Febr uary 7 at
4pm in Fine Arts Room 21 at Binghamton University (this
concert will be re peated on Tuesda y, February 9 at 8pm), and
the last on Sunday, March 21, at 4pm at First Presbyterian
Church in downtown Binghamton. March 21 also happens to
be the date of JS. Bach ’s 260th birthday!
Tickets for these future concerts are available from the
Anderson Center Box Office at Binghamton University by
telephoning 7 7 7ARTS. Tickets for the co ncerts presented at
First Presbyterian Church are also available at the entrance to
the church on the day of the perfor mance. We regret that we
cannot guarantee ticket availability past 90 for each of the
performances held in Fine Arts Room 2 1 due to space
restrictions in the facility, so purchase your tickets well in
advance for those particular concerts!
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Sunday, December 6 ,
4 p.m. a t Fine Ar t Bldg R m 2 1 , B U
Second Year Series: I’ebrmary 7 , March 21, 2010
�Binghamton University Music Department’s
U P C O M I N G E V E N T S
cert, 1:20 PM FREE
Thursday, November 1 2 ” MidDay Con
Casadesus Recital Hall
Saturday, Novembe r 1 4 ”1 Student Clarinet Recital: Sarah Fenster, clarinet
& Dan Fagen, alto saxophone, 7:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Sunday, Novembe r 1 5% Binghamton Philharmonic and the Binghamton _
University Chorus: Songs of Destiny by Brahms and Beethoven, 3:00 PM,
Osterhout Concert The ater, (for tickets, call BPO at 607. 723 3931)
Sunday, Novembe r 1 5 ” C oncerto and Aria Competition, 6:30 PM,
Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
cert, 1:20 PM FREE
Thursday, Novembe r 1 9 ” MidDay Con
Casadesus Recital Hall
Saturday, Novembe r 21°" Master Recital: Julie Williams, soprano, 8:00
PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
al: Ashley Maynard, soprano, 3:00
Sunday, Novembe r 2 2 ” Master Recit
PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
MidDay Concert with Tony Kadleck,
Thursday, Decembe r 3 ° Jazz
trumpet, 1:2 0 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Ensemble Concert with Tony
Thursday, Decembe r 3 ° Harpur Jazz
Kadleck, tru mpet (cosponsored by the Harpur Jazz Ensemble and the Binghamton University
Department of Music), 8:00 PM, Osterhout Concert Theater, $$ (FREE for students)
and Flute Chamber Concert, 10:15 AM,
Friday, Decembe r 4 ” Flute Studio
Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Madrigal Feaste (Harpur Chorale and
Friday, Decembe r 4 ” Elizabethan
Women’s Chorus), 6:30 PM, Old Union Hall, $$
al: Susan Amisano, soprano,
Friday, Decembe r 4 ” Master Recit
8:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Saturday, Decembe r 5%" Flizabethan Madrigal Feaste (Harpur Chorale and
Women’s Chorus), 6:30 PM, Old Union Hall, $$
For ticket information, please call the
Anderson C enter B o x O ffice at 777ARTS.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: PDF / Rosetta
PDF with Rosetta audio/video link
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 sound discs
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
40:11
30:24
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE154586">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE154586</a>
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Single
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bruce Neswick Link organ series concert, November 8, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-11-08
Description
An account of the resource
Held November 8, 2009.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Reitz, Margaret
Neswick, Bruce
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-11-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3b91fb2ecf3f3e25b2f67097ddfb8e39.jpg
7ee80168ea72382994af99a9a0fc8d33
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/73e62013f7973248eaf08f6339ca5d03.mp3
12b65d907f5dfb040b48788033df4dd2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
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This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2009-11-09
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Joseph T. Cox, 1946-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Joseph T. Cox is a retired army officer, educator, author and the former headmaster of Haverford School. Cox was also an English professor at West Point. He earned a Bachelor’s degree from Lafayette College and a Master’s degree and Ph.D. from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Joseph T. Cox is a retired army officer, educator, author and the former headmaster of Haverford School. Cox was also an English professor at West Point. He earned a Bachelor’s degree from Lafayette College and a Master’s degree and Ph.D. from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
109:05
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"The nineteen sixties; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Vietnam War; Colin Powell; Baby boom generation; Cold War; Nineteen fifties; Assassination of John F. Kennedy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">The nineteen sixties; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Vietnam War; Colin Powell; Baby boom generation; Cold War; Nineteen fifties; Assassination of John F. Kennedy.</span>
Subject LCSH
Soldiers; College teachers; Cox, Joseph T., 1946--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Joseph Fox
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 23 July 1987
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:12):
Testing, one, two, testing. Okay. So again, some of these are specific questions, and some are general. And I will keep looking at this, because the one time, the thing stopped. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, or that period of the (19)60s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
JC (00:00:33):
Well, I graduated from college in 1968, so I think of the things that happened, the first thing probably is Martin Luther King's assassination. I was a senior in high school when Kennedy was assassinated, and then I had graduated from college when RFK was assassinated. But the real turning point in my head was when Martin Luther King was assassinated. It was just a kick in the gut, and just, "What is going on," kind of sense of things. I felt like we had started to slide with JFK's assassination, and you did not think it could get too much worse. And then the next two assassinations just really, I think, affected me.
SM (00:01:31):
Now, when you went to Vietnam and you came back home, what was the kind of America that you saw upon your return? Now, was it a welcoming America, or were you disappointed in the country that you came back to as opposed to the country when you left?
JC (00:01:50):
Well, I graduated in (19)68 and went off to Airborne and Ranger School, and then went to Fort Carson Fifth Infantry Division, assuming I was going to go right to Vietnam. And I remember the battalion commander called me in and said, "What do you want to do next?" And I said, "Oh, command B Company if you let me." I said, "I expect to go to Vietnam." And he said, "Well, we have got other plans." And they sent me to Germany to be a General's Aide. So I went to Germany for almost two years before, when I went to Vietnam from Germany. So, I had been out of the country, living in the country for three years. And when I came back it was totally different. I mean, I went to Germany in 1969, early (19)69, and I got back three years later. What is that? (19)71? It was just a-
SM (00:02:47):
(19)70s?
JC (00:02:49):
Late (19)71. It was just different... It seemed very, very different. And I felt alienated from that country that I came back to. I was told on the... I left Vietnam in my tan uniform, and we were told, "Going into Travis, do not wear your uniform," which made me a little bit stubborn. I just made.... I was going to wear my uniform. Nobody is going to tell me I could not wear my uniform. And I felt like people were staring at me. I felt ostracized. I thought the price of beer in the San Francisco airport was outrageous. It was probably a buck 75 or something like that. And I just felt kind of alienated to some things. And I remember that the 4th of July after I got home, I actually went down on a Gettysburg tour, and the buses that were touring Gettysburg, while Vietnam was still going on, were practically empty. But it was something I did just to kind of reconnect with soldiers and organize my thoughts about whatever. And I just felt a bit like an outsider. And as a funny piece to this, because I ended up staying in the Army for 30 years, and I am not sure why I stayed in the Army for 30 years. I could give you a lot of reasons. Probably the main reason was I enjoyed the people I worked with, and every job you have in the Army, the next job is kind of a challenge. You do not think you are really ready for it, and I liked that. But I stayed in for 30 years. And right before I was going to get out, I really had this anxiety over getting out. I could not understand it. And I reread Tobias Wolff's In Pharaoh's Army and that section where he is thinking about riding the bus and thinking about getting out of the army after he got back from Vietnam. All of a sudden, I identified with it, and I honestly thought, "Okay, this is what you were afraid of all the time. It is one reason you probably stayed in the army." And it really kind of put my mind at ease. And I retired after 30 years and a day and never looked back and felt very good about it. But it all was still connected with Vietnam, and it was all still connected with coming back to a country that had changed, seemed like that was different. And another thing that happened in coming back, all of a sudden, I had this huge passion for baseball. I could not play enough softball, I could not watch enough baseball. And I never had this passion prior to that. I liked baseball, but I did not play in high school, played little league and stuff. But I, all of a sudden, had this passion for baseball, and it was unexplainable except that I had been away from the United States. And that is when I came back, I identified baseball at the United States. It was strange.
SM (00:06:13):
When you went in, what college did you go to?
JC (00:06:15):
I went to Lafayette.
SM (00:06:17):
When you went to college, did you know you were going to go into the military?
JC (00:06:20):
No.
SM (00:06:20):
Or what were your goals when you first started?
JC (00:06:23):
Well, I grew up in Springfield, Mass. I went to Springfield Technical High School, and I thought I was going to be an engineer. I had a wonderful English teacher in high school, and he prepared me better than I realized. I got to Lafayette, I started, and I realized coming out of probably a pretty good high school, but I realized it was a lot of work in college. It was tough. And the only thing that came easy to me was writing in my English course, thanks to the guy who actually had a PhD and was teaching in a big inner city technical high school. So I ended up an English major, because I got my best grades in English, and I knew I was going to have to concentrate on something eight hours a day. And in addition to going to classes, and it turned out it was what I enjoyed. So I had no idea what I was going to do. I thought I would probably coach and teach English. When I went to Lafayette, they had mandatory ROTC. And I was in the ROTC program, and my father had been a sergeant in the Second World War, and then was a warrant officer, a full-time warrant officer in the National Guard. So, he did not make a lot of money, and the bills were piling up, college bills. And they offered a two-year ROTC scholarship at Lafayette. I think another guy and I were the first two to get the full scholarship, books, tuition fees, and a hundred dollars a month. So they paid for everything. There probably were not a lot of takers in 1965, (19)66. And I got that scholarship. And then I knew I was going to have to serve in the Army, but I wanted to serve in the Army. I wanted to go to Vietnam. I had read too much Hemingway, probably. So I had kind of a perverted sense, a perverted desire to go to war. And as I said, I graduated in 1968. I was a regular army officer and was sure I was headed to Vietnam. When I was in Vietnam, my boss was a man named Bill Reno, retired as a Lieutenant General. And in Vietnam, I was planning to get out of the Army, and General, or Major Reno, then I was a captain, asked me what I was going to do, and it was back to the same plan. "I am going to teach. I am going to go somewhere, get a Master's degree in English, teach and coach." I did not really know the prep school path, but I probably would have ended up at a prep school as an English teacher/coach. And that was always my plan. He said, "You can do that in the Army." I said, "Oh, I doubt that." And he said, "No, you can." And he paved the way, and I ended up going up to West Point, getting an interview. And the Army sent me to University of North Carolina for my Master's degree. And when I got up to West Point, I think those of us who were not West Point graduates were in a minority. And I ended up teaching four years at West Point before I went back into the regular Army.
SM (00:10:12):
[inaudible]. When you went to Lafayette College, what was the environment like? Obviously, there was a lot of anti-war people going on at that time on most college campuses. Did you feel the pressure that was going on in America regarding the anti-war movement? And how did you feel about your fellow peers that were your age who were against the war? And how did they treat people like you, who were in ROTC? Because I can remember when I was in college at Binghamton, we banned, they banned ROTC from the campus.
JC (00:10:47):
Lafayette was all male. And it is a fairly conservative school. Out of about 400, I guess in my class, I think 52 of us were commissioned in one service or another. It was small. People knew each other. I was in student government, I was elected to the student council. Also, I washed pots for my meals in a social dorm. There were 19 fraternities, and there was this social dorm. And I ate all my meals in the social dorm, and the social dorm had the radicals. So I would sit at supper time, and we would read Jim Reston's editorials in the New York Times and discussing, or breakfast and then discussing. So some of the guys who were the biggest "protestors" were the people I broke bread with, so they were friends. I was in student government with them. Actually, at that time, and again, this is (19)66, (19)67, things were falling apart, (19)67, (19)68, my senior year in Vietnam. But I did not have a sense, it was not Berkeley. It was much, much more conservative and much more civil. And it was funny, I was one of the two battalion commanders in the ROTC unit, and we would march through our drill and go back, put our weapons away, and guys would bomb us with water balloons. They were the same guys I would have supper with a half an hour later. And it was not as confrontational and as bitter as it might have been in other places. I think it probably got more difficult, but at least I came into Lafayette in kind of an innocent period in (19)64. They still had us wearing beanies and singing. We could still sing the alma mater, because they made us memorize it. And it was a big fraternity dominated school. So it just was a little bit different, because it was a smaller school. And you had formed friendships, and there were differences of political opinion. But it was all actually pretty healthy. One of my best friends is a man named Lowell Lifschultz, who is a lawyer now. Not as often as I would like, but we still talk to each other. But Lowell was a very, very bright guy, and intellectually would give me a hard time over it. But I was destined. I had signed the paperwork, and I was getting the scholarship. And I knew where I was going, and I had no illusions about that.
SM (00:13:58):
Did you feel that when you were over in Vietnam that a lot of the things that were happening in America were divisions between Black and white, drug culture, the different styles, different political viewpoints forward against the war was actually also taking place within the Army and the Marines? Someone said to separate the Marines, Army. Someone told me separate the Marines, because they were gung ho. I am not sure if that is true. Because the hip people would say that the Military went really down during that (19)67 to (19)71 period, and then around (19)71, (19)72, it started changing. So just your thoughts that some of the issues that were actually happening in America were happening in the armed forces in Vietnam.
JC (00:14:45):
Well, I think units that... I think every experience was different depending on where you were, and especially when you were there. And I think things were a lot different in 1968 than they were in 1971. And I think by 1971, there were deeper racial divides. There were drugs... There were real lines between the people who used alcohol and the people who used marijuana. And then I know I was with a combat engineer unit. There was hardcore heroin use, where the heroin was so pure and so plentiful, the guys would melt it and put it on a cigarette. And the efficiency of that is fairly low, but it was so plentiful they could do it. So, you were dealing with those things. And I think people had no illusions about winning the war. My role as an Army captain with essentially seven platoons that were spread out in MR2, building roads, was to make sure that I did not do anything stupid to get somebody hurt. And my year started, what? My countdown started the day I got there, and everybody else had a different countdown. So, there was not a real cohesion, which did not help things either. But all the tensions that were there, I thought, as I said, from Germany to Vietnam, it was probably racial tensions were higher in Germany. And there were few by the Germans too than they were in Vietnam where people were more isolated and had a common mission. But they were there, and I am not... It was still a draftee army. So that created interesting combinations of people. I also had McNamara Project 100,000 soldiers in my unit.
SM (00:17:05):
Oh, wow.
JC (00:17:06):
I had a young man, and I wrote about him in one of the poems, who was just an incredibly hardworking young man. And he was very efficient, and I wanted to promote him. And I sat him down, and I said, "Larry read this." And he said, "Sir, I cannot read." And I said, "Quit kidding around. Read this. I want you to go before the board, and I want to promote you to sergeant." He said, "I cannot read." He started talking about his life. He had had a child when he was 14. He was from Fort Wayne, Indiana, and he had dropped out of school. And there was a project, 100,000 soldiers who were not mentally up to it, but I do not know if it was 100,000, but they brought some soldiers in. I looked at his records and realized that he was one of these soldiers. And it was just a very interesting social experiment. In the same unit, I had a guy who had a Master's in classics from Columbia, and then I had Larry, and another kid who... Larry was very, very productive. The other kid was like a little kid, and we had him take care of the dogs and paint the walls, and he was like everybody's little 12-year-old brother, who was kind of sad. But it was an interesting microcosm.
SM (00:18:29):
Did most of the people you served with feel that they could have won this war if the government had given you more support? And it depends on who you talked to again, but how many people really were against the war that was in this service over there? And how many were upset that they were not given the [inaudible] necessary to win the war? So, there is two different questions there.
JC (00:18:57):
Yeah. I think again, it is what time you were serving. And I was serving late in the war, and I do not think anybody had those... Honestly, I do not think anybody really felt... And again, we were building roads, we were trying to... We were turning the war over to the Vietnamese. So, I do not think anybody had a sense of not having permission to bomb here, or do this, or do that. I never really got into those kinds of conversations with folks. It was, again, taking care of ourselves, doing what we had to do. I did not have a sense of that kind of frustration, and I did not sense that even among my peers subsequent to the war. That was never really a big part of the conversation. And again, it was because we were so late in the war.
SM (00:20:12):
And you were there from what time to what time?
JC (00:20:15):
I am trying to think now. It was 1971 till, I may have come home in February of (19)72, so it was a year.
SM (00:20:27):
Before the last people really came out in (19)73.
JC (00:20:30):
Yeah.
SM (00:20:30):
The helicopter.
JC (00:20:31):
Yeah. Yeah. So it was later in the war. And all those kinds of thoughts were kind of... I think those had gone away. The being for against the war, that too was shaped by the inevitability of our withdrawal, which we were there to withdraw. And I remember going into Vietnam, and I had a choice. I could have gone to the 101st, or to, I think, the 25th. And I deliberately asked to go to an engineer unit, because I did not want to... We knew the combat units were getting pulled out, and I did not want to go to a combat unit and then go and get pulled out. I was there, I wanted to experience it. And I deliberately remember not making that choice. And they were pulled out while I was there. A lot of our security was turned over to the Vietnamese, which was an interesting experience, because we did not feel as secure. And it really created a whole different feel about it. It made it a little bit more wild west. It was just different, because we were coordinating with the Vietnamese for security. And in the Koreans, the White Horse Division, it was very much, I think, a different experience than some other people had, because the fighting actually was being done by the Vietnamese than the South Korean units.
SM (00:22:25):
When do you feel, individually, that the (19)60s, the genre, the (19)60s actually begin? Was there a specific event? Was there a series of specific events? Was there a specific year that separated, say, the boomers when they were in the (19)50s, when they were elementary school kids, basically? And I have had a lot of different responses to this. Just your thoughts of, was there anything, do you feel-
JC (00:22:58):
November 23rd, 1961. That begins the (19)60s. And I think that is the assassination of JFK, isn't it?
SM (00:23:03):
It was (19)63.
JC (00:23:03):
(19)63. Okay.
SM (00:23:03):
Yeah. November 20-
JC (00:23:03):
Yeah, (19)63.
SM (00:23:03):
November 22nd.
JC (00:23:11):
November 22nd, (19)63. Here I am, so sure my date. (19)63. That, to me, was the beginning of the (19)60s, because that was a loss of innocence, and that was a turning point. And for me, it was the beginning of the (19)60s, because I was a senior in high school. So, I am just starting to come into my consciousness of the world around me. I remember the Bay of Pigs. I remember the tension. I remember thinking... This tells you more about maybe what a weird kid I was, but I remember getting off the bus and walking to high school, thinking, "Should I go down, lie about my age, and enlist in the Marines?" Because something is going to happen, which is-
SM (00:23:59):
Yeah.
JC (00:23:59):
...pretty dumb on my part. But that was a period I remember. But I honestly see the turning point is, and I do not know why I keep saying (19)61, because maybe that is the Bay of Pigs.
SM (00:24:14):
Yeah.
JC (00:24:14):
(19)63-
SM (00:24:14):
Or (19)62 was the Cuban Crisis.
JC (00:24:17):
Yeah.
SM (00:24:19):
Do you remember the exact moment when you first heard the Kennedy was shot?
JC (00:24:24):
Yeah.
SM (00:24:25):
A lot of people that were boomers were in school, and they heard it in a class, or a teacher said it. How did you first find out about it?
JC (00:24:29):
I was a teacher's writer for our high school newspaper, and it was the newspaper period. So those of us who worked on the newspaper, we were fairly close, and it was informal. And Mrs. Shea was crying and told us, and we just could not believe it. It was an afternoon, I guess, near the end of the day in school.
SM (00:25:02):
Yeah.
JC (00:25:03):
And it was interesting, because I just had my 45th reunion, and we were talking about-
SM (00:25:08):
Oh, wow.
JC (00:25:11):
... about that. And there were about three of us, or four of us at the 45th year of reunion, who actually had first heard it together. So we were sharing that memory, and Mrs. Shea. It was-
SM (00:25:28):
And you lived on the East Coast at that time?
JC (00:25:29):
I lived in Massachusetts.
SM (00:25:30):
Yeah. So if you were in class, it was probably close to the end of the school.
JC (00:25:33):
It was the end of the school day.
SM (00:25:35):
One period left. Probably one period left.
JC (00:25:35):
Yeah. That was our last period.
SM (00:25:36):
Yeah.
JC (00:25:37):
And my father, being a Boston Irishman, non-practicing Catholic, but he had the Boston Irish stubbornness. And I remember one time in Holyoke, Massachusetts, they used to paint the center stripe green. And one time, John Kennedy was leading the parade, and they went by, my father got right in my face and said, "Someday, he's going to be president." I did not say this to my father, because I did not talk to my father this way, but I am thinking, "Do not get mad at me, dad. I am not sure... Why are you..." And it was that stubborn Irish pride. And my neighborhood was very... It was Italian and Irish. So I grew up in a very ethnic Catholic part of Springfield. So, it was a big deal.
SM (00:26:38):
But you just said it was a magic moment. See, that reason why I am titling my book A Magic Moment is that in every interview I have had, there has been magic moments that I did not expect. And I only picked that when I think I was on my 30th interview, and I had not gone up for the title yet. And someone said, "We have already talked about the magic moments that you have had in some of these interviews. That would be a great title for your book."
JC (00:27:03):
Somebody else has had said the same, Kennedy assassination, have not they?
SM (00:27:03):
Yes, they have.
JC (00:27:03):
Oh, yeah.
SM (00:27:03):
Yeah. And other-
JC (00:27:03):
Not that magic.
SM (00:27:10):
Some said Kent State.
JC (00:27:11):
See, I was out of the country.
SM (00:27:13):
Yeah. Kent State. Well, that was the one that... No, when you look at the boomer generation, which is those born between (19)46 and (19)64, and of course, a lot of the people that were in the anti-war movement were born in (19)43 and (19)44. And a lot of the people I have interviewed, over half are not in boomers. They lived during the time that boomers were young. So all their opinions count. What is your thoughts on the boomer generation, this generation of 70 to 74 million, depending on... The millennials now, the young people that are here in this school, now are part of the largest generation in American history. They are 80 million strong. And I think boomers would be a little sensitive to know that they are no longer the biggest group. But just your thoughts on the boomer generation, what you-
SM (00:28:03):
But just your thoughts on the boomer generation, what you think are some of their strengths or their weaknesses?
JC (00:28:08):
Well, I think boomers were idealistic, obviously idealistic in both left and right causes. I saw Vietnam as part of the Kennedy's column. I was idealistic. I do not think I had any illusions about it, but I still saw it in those terms. And so I think very, very idealistic. Very, I think selfish in many ways. I think for whatever reasons, I think boomers think of themselves as a chosen people. Special time in history, unique time in history, deserving more than perhaps we think we should. In contrast to my father's depression era attitudes, we always just thought that things should be ours, material things should be ours in ways that I do not think too many generations before us felt that way. And I think we are selfish in... Although there is an awful lot of rhetoric about one world. I think Americans are, I think, we are uniquely ethnic centric about our experiences. I do not think we are very open-minded, even those who... I just do not think we are that open-minded. I think the kids today have a much more real sense of how flat the world is. I do not think we still even have that sensed the way we should. Let us see. It is hard to characterize a group of people. I think we... I do not know. I have a sense that something has owed us and it is an unrealistic sense that something he has owed us. And it is going to be interesting as we become the non-productive age, the non-productive part of our society, how that is going to work itself out. Because I do not think other generations have that sense of entitlement as much as our generation does.
SM (00:31:21):
That was one of the questions, and you already answered it, that there was a feeling of uniqueness. That we are the most unique generation of history. And not only when they were young, there was this feeling, I remember being around it, that we can really make a difference in this world by ending war, by bringing the races together, by showing equality toward all groups, stealing the... Like a panacea, a cure-all. We are going to be the group that is going to be able to do it. And even talking to some people today that are our age who still feel... Some have gone on and made a lot of money but some still feel it.
JC (00:31:59):
That is good. I am encouraged. I just felt... I do not know. I understood all that and felt that a lot of people feel that way. And there is a lot of generosity. Part of it too is the Vietnam experience. Paul Fussell said, "Once a pissed off infantry man, always a pissed off infantry man." And I could always tell when I met somebody in the army, a career soldier in the army, I could always tell a fellow officer who had served in Vietnam or one who had not, there's an element of cynicism in the person who had served in Vietnam and there is a skepticism there. Part of my more pessimistic take on the idealism of our generation is probably a result of that Vietnam skepticism because so much was promised there and so much in the delivery was so short.
SM (00:33:12):
How do you feel when... George will does this all the time. He will write an article, and he has done it for years in all his books. He loves to take shots at the older generation, the (19)60s generation and prove that he was against the war and then supported McGovern (19)68 and (19)72 and the whole history there. And certainly in (19)94 when Newt Gingrich came to power, he loved it too. He has made a lot of comments about it. I tried to get him to be in this project, he has rejected twice and I know people close to him. But what are your thoughts when you hear people like that who will just condemn the generation as all the reasons we have problems in America today. That all of our problems will go back to that time when things were loose, the sexual revolution, they just had a television show on that the other night and we saw it. It was unbelievable, there were things I never saw before. And division between black and white, those who supported the war, those who were against it. Just your thoughts. The blame game.
JC (00:34:18):
I think that is too easy. I just think there is certain tensions in society that exist, have always existed. Lots of good people trying to do good things to relieve those tensions, and the tensions are still there. I think a lot of it is a function of just society. And I think trying to blame a period or trying to blame a generation, that is a cop out. That is just too easy. I never really had that sense. Here is an interesting moment for me. Going back to graduate school, coming back from Vietnam, playing softball for the English department softball team, graduate team at University of North Carolina. One of my teammates was a man named Gordon Ball. Gordon Ball wrote Ginsberg Verbatim. Gordon Ball was my fellow graduate student at Carolina and he gets nominated for one of the best... He gets a Pulitzer nomination for a critical book, Ginsberg Verbatim. Gordon was a North Carolina farm boy. When Ginsberg started a farm, a co-op or whatever, Gordon's there and he actually knows how to run a farm. He is part of it and he takes the notes and writes Ginsberg Verbatim, which is a pretty good book. Well, he likes to play softball, I like to play softball. We are teammates, we are friends and both of us from probably different directions are completely outraged by Watergate, completely outraged by the abuse of the presidency. And so Gordon and I at University of North Carolina manned a petition booth together. And we are about as far away from each other politically and in every other way that you can imagine. And we are both just upset about what happened and just outraged by the abuse of power and the abuse of fundamentals and the constitution and so on. That is a bookend event for my generation.
SM (00:37:01):
It is a very interesting thing that, Max, because when I interviewed Chic Canfora, who is the sister of Allen who was a Kent State, she is a professor, she is a dynamic professor there. But she was one of the students that was at Kent State. And when I was listing the names as I would do at the very end of the interview and I mentioned the name John Dean, some people just revile and maybe just a lot of negative stuff. But for this anti-war activist who was there the day the four students were shot, she looked upon him as a hero. And she went on and said, "I wish he had run for president because he was a Republican who has been very critical of Republicans and Democrats and his recent writings he is on the conservative movement, liberals. He is just fair in every way." It is interesting how...That is what the whole Free Speech Movement was all about at Berkeley. It was not about being a liberal or conservative, it was about that Dr. Kerr tried to shut down a booth on campus and the students that were against that group, they did not like him politically, did not like him personally, but when the president tried to shut them down to hand out literature, they all came together, Liberals, Conservatives, because it was students, It was students uniting on a cause, so you made a very important point here. One of the things too is just your thoughts on the movement. Before I get to that, what kind of parents have boomers been? When you define the boomer generation you also oftentimes think of the term activism, it was an activist generation, both Liberals and Conservatives. Young Americans for Freedom, which is a very conservative group, was very anti-war and were involved in the movement. And just like Harry talked about, let us get the military point of view on war, we need to get the conservative anti-war movement war, which has been excluded from the books. But just your thought on how they have raised their kids and their grandkids. Have they shared their ideas with them? Have they created another generation of activists? Because it does not seem like they are. How have they been as parents and grandparents? You're dealing with probably parents of these kids now who are in that generation and there seems to be a tremendous link. There does not seem to be a generation gap between the parents and their kids like there was between our generations.
JC (00:39:29):
I do not know. I put myself in this category, I think the parent... Probably my generation, boomer generation parents are much more tolerant. I would hope. Maybe because I did not have kids until I was a little older, a little bit more open to all the crazy stuff that goes on. I think there is another generation of parents who are the younger parents now who are very anxious. And I am not sure, I think parents are getting even more anxious as we go on. I am not sure what the reason for that is, but I think... And it is funny, I have met kids who parents have really grown up as loose as possible who were in the army. We have got a friend who is the head of the school in San Francisco and he called me and I could tell by his voice something was really bad and he is a dear friend and I said, "What is it?" He said, "My son wants to fly a helicopter and he's enlisting in the army." It was like the end of the world for him. I am exaggerating a bit, but you could tell he was concerned. And I calmed him down. I just said, "Well, he will do this and this and this." And he calls me and he said, "I was just out at the basic training," or whatever, maybe it was a helicopter school, and he said, "They are just like us, they are teachers," talking about the sergeants in the army. But it was such a foreign experience to him. And his son obviously had these desires to do that. And maybe he did it partly in rebellion, I do not know. But thank God his son is safe. And this guy who did not have any experience with the military has I think a very favorable experience. It is just difficult to generalize.
SM (00:41:53):
Do you sense that just from young people you deal with, not only here but the other schools that you are aware of, that there just does not seem to be activism anymore? There are activists, students are involved in a lot of different things that we may not be aware of just the media just is not covering them.
JC (00:42:10):
I think there is a real strong service ethic among our kids. Kids here, actually, because I belong to that social dorm and my friends had organized... I actually poled for McCarthy when I was ROTC.
SM (00:42:32):
Oh, wow.
JC (00:42:33):
But I went out and I did it because I was living with these guys.
SM (00:42:37):
Clean for Gene.
JC (00:42:38):
Neat and clean for Gene.
SM (00:42:39):
Yes.
JC (00:42:44):
You about the motivation, I was doing it just to help a friend, and my motivation was not that strong. I think kids today... I will tell you the kids I am around, they really want to make a difference. And I think they are much more generous and honest in their desire to help other people. At least the kids that I have seen in the past 10 years around here.
SM (00:43:18):
Do you think that, this is important, volunteerism is activism. On university campuses 95 percent of students are on volunteer duty. Some that is mandatory like in fraternities and sororities, so many hours, some groups are required to do it. The key question here is, I am not saying it is not activism is, when they leave school, is it more of, I am going to do this every two weeks for two hours-
JC (00:43:45):
No.
SM (00:43:45):
... or is it a mentality of 24 to seven and it is part of who I am as a person?
JC (00:43:49):
I think it is part of who they are. We do not have mandatory community service and we do not even call it community service. We call it service learning, it is integrated into the curriculum. It is part of what you do as a frame of mind. It is a state of mind and it is a piece to the larger global state of mind that I think our kids have too. It is a sense of, we are all in this together. It is a real strong sense of what is right and wrong. Fairness issues. I think I could go out and grab a kid out in the hallway and we start asking him those questions. I think you would be very, very positively impressed with... It is part of their ethical makeup. I am very optimistic about that. And the kids will make fun of a lot of things, but they do not make fun of that.
SM (00:44:50):
Your views are very important because I had many that are very negative, not about young people because they all believe in young people. You would not be in higher ed if you did not believe in people. Some people may develop at a different time. You may not see them activists when they are a junior or senior in college, but you can darn tooting they will be doing something in their 20s or 30s. It is just they involve at different times and we have to have respect that amongst younger people. But some of the people I have interviewed have been very negative about today's generation with respect to the lack of activism but the sense of volunteerism is there, but whether it is really part of them as a human being. This gets right into the issue of movements. One of the things that defines often times the boomer generation are the movements. Obviously the Civil Rights Movement was already happening when boomers were in their teenage years. You have got the Women's Movement, the Gay and Lesbian Movement, the Chicano, the Native American movement, the Environmental Movement, all these movements that came about, anti-war movement around the late (19)60s and they just abound through today. Your thoughts on how important they are in America, but if you really can link them to define part of what the boomer generation is?
JC (00:46:07):
Obviously, I think they are historical, really significant. I think they were focused on in ways that raised everybody's attention to certain issues. And they are unique for the boomer generation and obviously the boomer generation were people then and... I am not sure I am answering this question fully. I think, again, this is probably the post- Vietnam skepticism. I am a little skeptical of movements, whether they be the kind that were bigger and more boisterous in my younger days. But even in terms of I am a registered Independent and proud of it. I am just skeptical of things being... Just skeptical of movements in general and I think that is probably left over from my experience. I am not sure I was ever fully invested in a movement.
SM (00:47:48):
I am going to read this one because this is a very important part of the project. There is two big issues that I have shut in on. One of them is this issue of healing and the second one is an issue of trust. The question I am asking right now, and I want to read because I feel I have missed something. Do you feel that the boomer generation is still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore this nation apart in your youth? The division between black and white, the divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticized it, the division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. Of course, I will throw in here too. What role did the Vietnam Memorial play in healing divisions, not only within the Vietnam veteran community and their families, but also the nation as a whole, or do you feel that the boomer generation will go to their graves like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, time heals all wounds the truth? And I prefaced this question by something. I took a group of students from Westchester University to meet Senator Muskie before he passed away, he was not well. I got to know [inaudible] quite well and he set up some meetings with us on our Leadership on the Road program to talk about his leadership. And I asked the same question to him and I have it on tape. And he did not respond right away to this question. He gave a melodramatic pause and actually had to show tears coming up. The tears that we saw that when he was attacked because he'd showed he was more feminine because he cried. And his response was that, "I just got out of the hospital. I just had an opportunity to see the Ken Burns series that was on public television about the Civil War." He went on and talked about the 400,000 men who had died in the war. And then he said, "I am not going to answer your question because I know you're asking the question regarding 1968 and all the things that happened in that convention. And I am not going to answer it that way because I cannot. The way I am going to answer it is that we have not healed since the Civil War. I just ask you to go to Gettysburg and just drive on each side you will see." Your thoughts on whether this is really even an issue. Some people will say, "Steve, people do not walk around Washington with lack of healing on their sleeves." But then others have said, "This is a very serious question because if we have not healed as a nation is what we are seeing today, not what you just explained to us about people from different points of view coming together, but this constant, you are the problem, you are the enemy, you are the..." This division of not coming together and no healing and the effect that it might be having on the boomer generation, and then that is having on their kids and their grandkids by witnessing these feelings. Is healing an issue in your viewpoint?
JC (00:50:59):
Absolutely. I think the issues that were at the root of the Civil War were never fully resolved, that is why the Civil War looms so large in our imaginations. To a certain extent those issues were revisited in the Vietnam War and they are still unresolved so intellectually it is still part of our...
SM (00:51:25):
Please speak up too.
JC (00:51:28):
It is still part of what's going on. However, I do not know if Bill Ehrhart explained how we met. We met at Vietnam Reconciliation Conference in 1992 at Notre Dame and Father Hesburgh brought people together for this Vietnam Reconciliation Conference. I think it was one of the first times they included Vietnamese voices and the Vietnam War took place in Vietnam, but it was all about the American experience, but the (19)92 conference made us a little bit more honest about it. And I may be naive, but I think a lot of the sharp edges are smooth. Bill Ehrhart and I are best of friends. We still have our probably fundamental political differences and I think most people are like that. And I may be naive because the past couple of presidential elections, not the last one, but the ones before it were so evenly split down the middle. You worry about that and it seems like we could go back to that 49/51 split and everything that you see in politics, in the way people position politics, it does seem to be a zero-sum game and it does seem to be a 50/50 split down the middle. I may be completely, absolutely wrong in my gut feeling that time does heal wounds, but maybe I am being naive in that. But I honestly believe that. I would not blame the boomer generation for what we see today. I do not think the roots of that 50/50 split is in the boomer generation, I think it is in the issues that are around us today. I am not going to take the blame for that one.
SM (00:53:52):
To me, the wall moves an awful lot. It is just one person. I lived in California in 1980 through (19)83 in the Bay Area for a while. And first thing I had to get to the wall as soon as I moved to Philadelphia to work at Thomas Jefferson University. And within a week I was on the train and got done to DC because I had not gotten a car yet. It means an awful lot, and I am not a Vietnam veteran. How important has the wall been? I know already it has been important for vets and their families. As Jan Scruggs says in the title of his book, To Heal a Nation...
JC (00:54:30):
Saving electricity.
SM (00:54:37):
Okay. To Heal a Nation, "We really heal the nation from the wall beyond just the mess."
JC (00:54:44):
My personal experience with the wall is interesting. I was in the Army, I did not really get involved in it. I knew the controversy. There was a part of me that wanted some kind of recognition, there was a part of me that heard, obviously, an abstract representation of it. I did not have a problem with that as much as some other people did, wanting a more literal representation. I think for me it works the way it is supposed to work in an abstract sense. I had not visited the wall and I was at the Army War College in Carlisle and we were on a trip to Washington and I got up in the morning and I ran to the wall at Sunrise and I looked up the names of the four or five people I knew that were on the wall. And it was an incredibly moving experience, primarily because it was an individual experience. I do not think there was anybody else around... For me it was a very, very good experience. If I'd gone there when people were...
JC (00:56:03):
... if I had gone there when people were walking around and it was a busy mall, I do not think it would have been the same. It worked for me. There is an interesting guy named John Wolf, who is an artist and he is a good artist. I hope he is still going strong. He actually got hit by two RPGs and it blew off one of his legs and he died on the operating time two or three times. He actually writes about dying on the operating table, and I was doing a Vietnam summer workshop at West Point, and I think we had Bill come up but we had lots of Vietnam veterans come, and John came down from New Rochelle ... I am sorry. Not New Rochelle. [inaudible]. He has a studio in [inaudible]. He is a successful artist but he is the kind of guy who would not park in a handicap spot. He is on crutches. He is an exclamation point and very interesting guy. One of the female cadets asked him what he thought of the wall, and he looked at her and he said it is a fucking abomination, and I am speaking both as an artist and a Vietnam veteran. It represents nothing of what my service in Vietnam or the army was, and then he went on to really get vulgar about the [inaudible] in the earth. It was interesting. When the younger officers met Bill Ehrhart and they met John Wolf, they said, "We got to bring them together" but they would have fought ... Back then, Bill ... They both would have fought like cats and dogs and it was really a surprise, to me, to somebody who is an artist, who was so badly wounded, had such strong feelings about the wall, and I tried to explain to him my experience and that I really felt like I was honoring the people that I knew, who were on that wall. He did not get that. He just thought it was a political statement, so to say that it ... Does it bring people together? It brings some people together I guess but ...
SM (00:58:38):
It is interesting. When I came to Jefferson, [inaudible] posttraumatic stress disorder with Dr. Schwartz up at Jefferson, I am not sure if he's still there, the [inaudible] going to be about PTSD and it ended up being [inaudible] all the Vietnam vets that I guess [inaudible] Dwight Edwards, the whole group that was involved with the wall in Philly, and they had this politician from Pittsburgh. He had a Purple Heart. I cannot remember his name. He was a Congressman, and he came, but he refused to shake the hands of any of the other vets, because they supported the wall in Washington and he did not. He would not even talk to them and they were all... I did not quite understand that.
JC (00:59:27):
I do not get that.
SM (00:59:28):
And they never did and then he kind of blasted Dr. Zuckerman, for being an anti-war person [inaudible] were still there but...
JC (00:59:36):
I do not know.
SM (00:59:37):
You know, Lewis Puller, who wrote Fortunate Son, which I think is the best book ever written, I just reread the book in the last month and hoping to interview his wife Toddy, if I can get her to be interviewed, that would be a coup, but he loved the wall, and they tried to make it as non-political as it is, a non-political statement but even I, as an observer, who sits there, has a sense that some of the comments being made, not by Jan Scruggs but by others, are very political and so he might ... Jan might have to rethink some of the things some of these people are saying and the wall. Some of the other questions here... The issue of trust is one I want to bring up. This is very important, because I can remember in the psychology 101 class when I was in college, I think, and a professor talking about do you trust your neighbor? Do you trust your friends? Do you trust your parents? He would go around the room. He also, the next class, [inaudible] and we were all stuck with this guy. We wanted to get him fired but he was [inaudible] distinguished professor of philosophy, his father was well-known at Johns Hopkins and all the other stuff. He was new then. He really struck something that was very important to me. He said that if you cannot trust someone in your life, then you will not be a success. You have to trust people. That has always stuck with me, not as a college student but as I have gone on into my life, because I am wondering... I have a sense that many of the boomers... I know boomers were distrustful of the leaders. It is very obvious. They did not trust presidents, they did not trust college presidents, they did not trust religious leaders. They did not really accept corporations. They did not trust anybody in a position of responsibility, including all the college administrators I was around, because they had been lied to. The lies came from Watergate, they came from the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. They came from Eisenhower, who lied to the national public about U2. They lied on [inaudible] 1959. Then the continuation of here in the Reagan administration, of course, the... It is a long story here but boomers have seen it. But in their youth, they did not trust leaders and that is why they went out [inaudible] so many times. Do you think this quality of lack of trust in many a generation, and I preface this by stating that only 15 percent were truly active, so we are talking about 85 percent who were not, but subconsciously, that 85 percent had to be affected also by what was going on in their youth. Do you think they have passed this lack of trust onto their kids and their grandkids? Again, it's a long question but it has a lot of meaning. The fact is if you are a study of history and political science, which I am, a lack of trust in your government is healthy. It is the first thing you learn in political science. That is how you learn and then that makes government better. But just your thought on the issue of trust, whether we really have a problem here in the nation, not only today, but throughout the boomer’s lives, because of experiences they had when they were younger.
JC (01:03:10):
Well, it is interesting and I will bring it back to my experiences. I was a company grade officer in Vietnam and there was a sense and, of course, I was a military region too ... Actually my corps commander was John [inaudible].
SM (01:03:27):
Oh, wow.
JC (01:03:28):
He was in charge while I was [inaudible] there. Yeah. You talk about trust and so on, but I, obviously, did not know him or work closely with him. However, there was this sense, at least ... I do not think I am speaking entirely for myself. Part of it is those bastards at platoon headquarters mentality that is in the army. You know, the higher the headquarters, the more screwed up, but there was another dimension to it and it was I had ... You will read in the piece I gave you, there is a perspective on somebody who is trying to get a star, and a distrust of that next level of leadership in the army, and as I stayed in the army, I worried about the generation of leaders, the next generation of leaders, and I was unbelievably pleasantly surprised with the Colin Powell or the commanders, the ... My direct boss in 101st, when I was a battalion commander, was a man named Herb Watson, who got killed with the president of Pakistan when the president of Pakistan's plane got blown out of the sky. The commanding general of the 101st and the 82nd airborne, two units, I would ... Just incredibly trustworthy, wonderful leaders. It was like they saw what was happening in Vietnam and they were not going to repeat it. Colin Powell, I think stands out, because [inaudible]. He stands out as that kind of exemplar. I ended up with the healthy skepticism and the natural, "Those bastards at platoon quarters" mentality that is always in organizations, I came out with a lot of confidence and trust in that next level of commanders. It really sustained me through 30 years in the army, because I would not want to be in an organization where I did not have that trust. That said, maybe one reason I stayed in the army, because I was working for people I trusted, and maybe I had a fear of going out into another world where you did not have that trust. The other side to that or the larger piece to that I guess is the whole notion of politicians and there is a deep distrust of politicizing things, drawing up lines, making arguments based on political motivation rather than what is the best decision, and, again, I agree, that is healthy skepticism. Maybe there is more of that when it comes to politics among boomers, and now are you infecting your kids or your grandkids? I do not know. I think there ... I just got an email from a friend and he could verify these numbers for me, like out of the two million whatever Vietnam veterans who served in Vietnam...
SM (01:07:00):
Three million. Three million served and I believe 450,000 and 500,000 were on the front lines.
JC (01:07:08):
Okay, but of the 380,000 or whatever it was, only 270,000 left. It was mind-boggling. I could pull up the email. I remember having a colleague, a guy I actually taught at West Point, his name is Elliott Gruner, who wrote a book about POWs, it is pretty controversial, and he would always... We had discussions, he was a colonel, and he was a major I guess at the time, but he would ... He would always just cut the conversation with, "You're still my favorite burnt out Vietnam vet." Actually the person who sent me those statistics I think is kind of a dig that you are a dinosaur, assigned it your favorite burned out Vietnam vet, so there is that I think stigma and there is probably some truth to it but I do not think... I think most of us look at it with some fabrication and some sense of humor. I do not think we're really trying to make everybody else that skeptical.
SM (01:08:26):
What do you feel is the number one reason the Vietnam War ended? How important were college students on the campuses in ending the war?
JC (01:08:36):
I think it is what is going to end Afghanistan and Iraq, just exhaustion, just our attention span is not that long. I do not think college students were a huge factor. Although, it was a strong voice that contributed to the overall exhaustion, but I do not think it was a primary cause. I think we are going to declare victory and get the hell out of Iraq, and we probably have a right to declare victory.
SM (01:09:19):
Do you worry that when you read articles, Afghanistan is another Vietnam? How do you feel when you hear that people get upset by every comparison of conflict around the world? Or they always bring up Vietnam. I sense in the university, they get very uptight. It's just a bunch of boomers, again, trying to be nostalgic or remember but that is not the purpose. Vietnam had so many meanings. Just to bring the word of Vietnam in a conversation with fellow boomers who may be in leadership roles in the universities, like, "There he goes again."
JC (01:09:59):
Well, it is a useful metaphor but it is ... I think it is an oversimplification. You worry about ... I worry about Pakistan. I mean, I worry ... That is the nexus of what you really have to worry about I think. I think we have probably exhausted ourselves in many ways in this. That is another story.
SM (01:10:31):
When did the (19)60s end? Just the (19)60s itself. Was there a period that you knew it was over?
JC (01:10:36):
Maybe Watergate.
SM (01:10:36):
Okay.
JC (01:10:40):
The Kennedy assassination, Watergate, that is a good 10 years...
SM (01:10:44):
How important was the music? Because when you think of the music, it had so many social messages in it.
JC (01:10:48):
It was great music.
SM (01:10:49):
It was great music and it is still being played today [inaudible 01:10:53] showed you the article he has on the wall in there, about one of the (19)60s ... A member of the Who refuses to sell his music for TV commercials. I think that is a lesson for students, he is not selling out.
JC (01:11:10):
Yeah.
SM (01:11:12):
He wrote the music for that generation to not be selling out. How important was music within this boomer generation in terms of not only their anti-war and their involvement but just your thoughts on the music? Who were your favorite musicians?
JC (01:11:31):
I remember my first wife, our first date, we went to a movie, the Cardinal, and then we went and saw the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan Show at my friend Jacques [inaudible]'s house.
SM (01:11:45):
Right.
JC (01:11:47):
There was a ... The Beatles were ... I remember waking up and hearing on the radio and just, "Wow. This is ..." But there is the ... You go from the Beatles to more of a Stones fan now, so that is the loss of innocence. I became a Stones fan pretty quickly.
SM (01:12:15):
I think I would ... Well, I like rock music but my mom used to watch As The World Turns, which is a TV show in the afternoon. I can remember coming home once and I had a day off or a two day break or whatever. She was watching it and on the background music on As The World Turns, they were playing I Cannot Get No Satisfaction. I said if it gets on TV like that, it is certainly getting into the mainstream and that was around 1967. Yeah. The folk music of that period, all the messages and, certainly, the Motown sound.
JC (01:12:47):
Yeah. Very-very important.
SM (01:12:49):
It was important.
JC (01:12:50):
You know, it brings you back in the best ways I guess but...
SM (01:13:01):
Before I get into the names here, just were there any books that were an influence to you that you read when you were young? Novelists or non-fiction books.
JC (01:13:14):
Yeah.
SM (01:13:14):
That you can think of in the (19)60s or (19)70s.
JC (01:13:17):
Well, they are not... I was a 19th century American guy, so I read a lot of Walden and Emerson, Moby Dick is my favorite... If I had a favorite book, Moby Dick and Absalom Absalom, but I remember I was reading Herman Hesse in Vietnam and I can actually remember sitting on an air strip reading...
SM (01:13:48):
Herman Hesse?
JC (01:13:49):
Yeah.
SM (01:13:49):
Wow.
JC (01:13:51):
You know, just... You got free books in Vietnam. I still have books probably on that shelf that I got from the Red Cross.
SM (01:13:57):
Hard backs?
JC (01:13:58):
No, paperbacks.
SM (01:13:58):
Oh, paperbacks.
JC (01:14:00):
Nobody in the unit was getting them, so I... English major. I brought lots of books back from the Red Cross book boxes.
SM (01:14:11):
They might be valuable if they are first editions. Even paperbacks.
JC (01:14:15):
I do not know. They were pretty beat up. I had them in a rucksack. There was a lot of time... A lot of time to read. I did have a reading experience, which isn't directly related to your question but when did Going After Cacciato get published? About (19)76 or so. (19)77.
SM (01:14:38):
I do not know.
JC (01:14:39):
I remember being in a bookstore and picking up Going After Cacciato and looking and reading, reading, reading and looking at my watch and it is about two hours, two and a half hours later. It was the first time anybody had written about and processed and written about, for me, the Vietnam War.
SM (01:15:01):
Wow.
JC (01:15:04):
In a way. I had become good friends with Tim O'Brien.
SM (01:15:08):
Oh, yeah. Book one [inaudible].
JC (01:15:10):
Yeah. I remember the first time I met Tim O'Brien, I met him in a ... He was doing a reading at University of North Carolina Wilmington, and I was actually camping on the beach in Wilmington and was in the men's room and Tim came in and we were standing there. I explained how important his Going After Cacciato was for my processing. I said, "Did you ever read J. Glenn Gray, The Warriors?" Tim stopped and he goes, "Not too many people know about that book. You appreciate it because [inaudible]." J. Glenn Gray...
SM (01:15:46):
Is that G-L-E-N?
JC (01:15:48):
J G-L-E-N-N Gray.
SM (01:15:54):
J. Glenn...
JC (01:15:56):
J, just the letter J.
SM (01:15:58):
J. Glenn.
JC (01:15:58):
Gray, The Warriors. He got his draft notice for the Second World War the same day he got his PHD of philosophy from Columbia, and he went and was a military intelligence officer, and saw action all through Italy and all the way up. Then he had a Fulbright and went back to Germany, and then his Fulbright, he took topics in war and analyzed them as a philosopher would analyze them, so attitudes toward the enemy, all the different attitudes toward the enemy, love in war, he analyzed that like a philosopher would, [inaudible] experiences. It is a fascinating book and it is exactly I think what incredibly influenced Tim O'Brien, like you cannot believe and I think he... It is one of those books.
SM (01:16:53):
Yeah. Well, I am at the part of the interview now where I just mention some names or terms of the period and you just give short responses to them. Some may have a greater effect than others. We already talked about the wall. What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
JC (01:17:12):
Again, I was out of the country, so the full impact did not affect me. I am sure if I were in college or in the States, it would have been a different impact.
SM (01:17:24):
What did you think when you heard that four college students were killed on a university campus?
JC (01:17:32):
Well, it was... This sounds small but it was an undisciplined National Guardsman versus a disciplined regular army. It said something about the National Guard was a way to avoid the draft, and like Lieutenant Calley, there were people in positions they should not have been in. It was an insult to the profession of arms, and to the profession period. I, obviously, have a regular army officer view of it. It was a breakdown.
SM (01:18:07):
Watergate. You already mentioned a little bit. What did Watergate mean to you? How do you think it affected the younger generation?
JC (01:18:18):
Well, I think it was something I did not want to believe and when all the facts came out, it was really disheartening. It reinforced skepticism and cynicism but it also, at the same time, gave me great confidence in the system, the justice system.
SM (01:18:41):
Woodstock?
JC (01:18:43):
Again, I missed it. It just was not part of my life, because I was in the army with my head shaved.
SM (01:18:58):
[inaudible] this year. It has had a lot of different meaning. Everybody seems to [inaudible].
JC (01:19:01):
You know, if I could live my life over again, I might want to be there but I probably would not want to not do what I did in the army.
SM (01:19:14):
All the cars going down the 81 heading toward that area, and I can remember ... I never thought once about it. I was a student [inaudible] and I never thought about it.
JC (01:19:24):
I am surprised you were not there.
SM (01:19:25):
I did not have a car and that did not stop anybody, though. 1968?
JC (01:19:34):
Year I graduated. Some great movies, Cool Hand Luke, Bonnie and Clyde. Martin Luther King's assassination.
SM (01:19:55):
The conventions.
JC (01:19:56):
Yeah. The conventions... I was in ranger school during that stuff, so I was in a gulag.
SM (01:20:07):
How about counter-culture? Just the term counter-culture?
JC (01:20:11):
Useful term. Does not give me any feelings.
SM (01:20:16):
How about hippies and yippies? There was a difference.
JC (01:20:21):
I guess the yippies were more political. I do not know. The hippies were just laissez faire. I liked San Francisco.
SM (01:20:30):
Yeah. SDS, Students for a Democratic Society.
JC (01:20:34):
I think a bit of... I think I am not sure of the best motivated.
SM (01:20:49):
Of course, the Weatherman were [inaudible].
JC (01:20:49):
A hard line.
SM (01:20:49):
The Vietnam Veterans Against the War, which was real big in (19)71. They kind of took over the anti-war movement through their throwing their awards away. Your thought on that? John Kerry has always identified he is the man who spoke but the biggest names in that group were not John Kerry.
JC (01:21:09):
Bill Ehrhart.
SM (01:21:10):
Yeah. He is very proud of it. [inaudible] was in the group.
JC (01:21:15):
You know, I was out of the country. I may have been in Vietnam during a lot of that. I do not have real strong feelings one way or another. I did not see it. I was not here to witness it.
SM (01:21:31):
What about... These are names now. Jane Fonda?
JC (01:21:38):
I watched Jane Fonda movies. Barbarella. I have got friends who... I mean, that is the trigger name. I just think somebody is not the brightest.
SM (01:21:52):
How about Tom Hayden? Her husband at that time.
JC (01:22:03):
Well, he was a politician, and became a politician. I do not have feelings one way or another.
SM (01:22:03):
How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin? They were the yippies.
JC (01:22:09):
Kind of comic characters. There is a certain very prankster part to that that I may not have the full story but that is my impression.
SM (01:22:21):
Timothy Leary?
JC (01:22:23):
Yeah. [inaudible] LSD. Seemed like an interesting guy.
SM (01:22:29):
Dr. Benjamin Spock?
JC (01:22:31):
Obviously, I am part of the boomer generation and he supposedly influenced... I think he probably gets more credit than he deserves.
SM (01:22:41):
How about Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew?
JC (01:22:47):
I think petty politicians.
SM (01:22:52):
Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern.
JC (01:22:55):
I really respected Eugene McCarthy. I do not know why I liked him as much as I did, but I think it was partly because he was kind of above it all. George McGovern, consistent, basically very good man. I liked McCarthy better. I would have voted for McCarthy. I did not vote for McGovern.
SM (01:23:29):
The ultimate mystery that I asked him is why he did not... Why he just dropped out. He said, "Read my book." He is a nice guy. I am Irish, he is Irish. I had met him twice before I interviewed him, but he... The one question where he really got upset is when I mentioned the name Bobby Kennedy. He said, "Read my book." I mean, he was dead serious. He did not want to talk about it. I go right into it now, John...
SM (01:24:03):
That meeting was dead serious. You do not want to talk about it. And I go right into it. Now, John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy.
JC (01:24:13):
Well, again, I shared some of that. I was very idealistic, and obviously Western Massachusetts and really worshiped Kennedy. Actually, here is a boomer echo. I honestly feel that Obama is the first president we have had since Kennedy, who has that kind of ability to synthesize things, makes sense, and talk public policy. I just live in fear that somebody is going to kill him.
SM (01:24:47):
I worry that, too, and I know the students at Westchester worry about that. The fact is he is a boomer, you know. He's a very late boom. He was born in (19)62 or something like that. (19)61. He is 48 now, but he is the real youngest boomer. But I had the same kind of fears and let us pray to God that does not happen.
JC (01:25:07):
But I have got the idealization of JFK. RFK I think was probably a shit, but he was a good shit. He was good at the-
SM (01:25:16):
The last two years of his life.
JC (01:25:20):
He was a pragmatist. I thought it was a real loss. I got a little bit of my father in me, I guess. My father used to scream and holler at Teddy on the TV and then go out and vote for him. It is that kind of whatever. Whatever gene it is that happens to Boston Irishmen.
SM (01:25:50):
How about Lyndon Johnson now?
JC (01:25:51):
Oh, I think he became such a cartoon of himself, and I think that was just sad.
SM (01:26:05):
Robert McNamara?
JC (01:26:05):
I am not a McNamara fan. I think he knew he was sending people to die. I blame him more than probably a lot of other people.
SM (01:26:09):
George Wallace?
JC (01:26:28):
I think he was kind of a caricature of a lot of different projected hoops. I was in Georgia when he was running.
SM (01:26:30):
Oh, when he was shot?
JC (01:26:30):
Well, no, when he was running.
SM (01:26:30):
Oh.
JC (01:26:31):
I was at Fort Benning, Georgia. I will tell you what, for a northern boy had never been south from the Mason-Dixon line to drive down there and to see that and to live that, where the majority of people really thought he was going to be president. Then I was an aid to a general from Mississippi. One time I said something about how stupid I thought all this was and he said, "Well, I completely disagree."
SM (01:27:07):
Yeah. I forget how he took a lot. Well, he got a lot of votes.
JC (01:27:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
SM (01:27:10):
Eight or 9 percent. It was a lot of votes.
JC (01:27:13):
And it was just such, for somebody like me, it was just... I cannot believe it.
SM (01:27:20):
How about Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford?
JC (01:27:25):
I think Gerald Ford was a good man and did the right things to heal the nation. I actually think, I know, I think I know because a friend of mine was a military aid to Reagan, that he was not the buffoon everybody portrayed him to be. He was a pretty sharp guy and he played that role pretty well.
SM (01:27:46):
I want to mention Jimmy Carter, too, because he is the guy that created the amnesty for those that went to Canada.
JC (01:27:53):
Even at the time, I think I was there at West Point at the time, that was fine. It was part of the healing process. Jimmy Carter, I think was just too smart for his own good.
SM (01:28:09):
Your thoughts, you always talk about the Vietnam syndrome. We got to get rid of it. Well, during the Reagan administration, we're back. It was basically a statement saying love America again. Love the American flag again. And certainly bringing the military back to stature. But also with George Bush Senior, you talked about the Vietnam syndrome is over, and he talked about it when he was president. Your thoughts on, looks like they were also making a criticism of that particular era, both Reagan and Bush. What are your thoughts on...?
JC (01:28:45):
Well, it is interesting because I was in the Command General Staff College. I think all of us felt that Carter was going to get us in a shooting war. I think the weaker your position, the more vulnerable you are. One reason I went to the 82nd was I wanted to be in the best unit I could be in, because I honestly thought I was going to war. Then when Reagan came in, it was all of a sudden it is an era of triple volunteers. Volunteer for the Army, volunteer for the Airborne, volunteer for the 82nd. All of a sudden you have got equipment that you can use, so it really was a turnaround. I put it in professional terms. I do not think I thought in terms of Vietnam or not Vietnam. I remember being in the, maybe it was, I think it was Battalion Commander on 101st when Platoon came out. I remember coming out of a theater and my younger soldiers were there, and it was an eye-opener for them. I remember saying to them, I said, "It is not pretty, is it?" And I had Oliver Stone come to West Point.
SM (01:30:06):
Oh, wow.
JC (01:30:06):
I taught his trilogy. It was in the sense of the use of Vietnam from a professional point of view was, I think Platoon was a very, very accurate movie. It is not pretty and there's a lot of... It is obviously a drama. All that did not happen, but all that did happen and Oliver Stone has put it together properly. But I think first President Bush is sitting on a hill, too. I actually have a theory about, we have been using the same myths to talk ourselves into war since the periods. There is the John Smith myth that one European can take on 200 Indians or any other non- Europeans. And we're using that I think in our thinking even today. And then there is the God [inaudible] city upon the hill and chosen people and war is a purifier. To a certain extent, we use that, too.
SM (01:31:19):
When we think of Bill Clinton and President George W. Bush, they are boomers.
JC (01:31:27):
Yeah. Interesting.
SM (01:31:29):
So, what is it about those two that really... They have the characteristics of boomers. A lot of people do not like to answer that. A lot of them say they are typical booms.
JC (01:31:38):
Yes. Yes.
SM (01:31:43):
How would you define them as typical boomers?
JC (01:31:54):
I do not know if I want put this on tape. So full of shit. No.
SM (01:31:54):
[inaudible]. Hey, I have only got to come up 10 more. Well, I might go-
JC (01:31:54):
I do not know if I want to be directed that way, but there was that element to both of them, I think, that more of a common denominator than a difference. We go back, you were talking about the characteristics, the sense of entitlement, the sense of uniqueness, self-serving part of it. I am not sure they are the best representatives of the boomer generation, but they did seem to... I do not know; the mental laziness of Bush and the self-indulgence of Clinton are two things that...
SM (01:32:38):
Yeah, enough said. Your thoughts on Dr. Martin Luther King and Malcolm X? Because they were the predominant figures there.
JC (01:32:47):
I have got a funny story. I also was a dorm counselor for my room. I was trying to make money any way I could. AI got a call right before my senior year and they said, "We got a guy," and he was the founder of the Black Student Organization at Lafayette. He was from New Rochelle. His name was Jerry Gill. He died a couple of years ago. Got a picture of him. We became very good friends because we ended up rooming together. They said, "Can we put him on his floor?" Because they were worried about him. They wanted somebody to watch him because he is this Black radical.
SM (01:33:34):
Want this on tape?
JC (01:33:34):
Sure.
SM (01:33:34):
Yeah?
JC (01:33:37):
I just hired a woman, English teacher, who graduated from Tufts. She's sitting here and I am interviewing and I said, "Do you remember Professor Gill?" She burst into tears. He had made that much of a difference in her life.
SM (01:33:51):
Wow.
JC (01:33:52):
But Jerry, then they called me and said, "Cannot find a roommate." I said, "I will room with him." So, we are in a room and it is not very big, and over Jerry's bed is big picture of Malcolm X. About a month after we have been rooming together, I walk in and Malcolm's gone and there's a big picture of The Supremes. He goes, "I did that for you."
SM (01:34:17):
Oh, wow. That is nice.
JC (01:34:19):
So, we became very-very-very good friends. Obviously, he got honored by Lafayette College and when he came back, I went up there and he gave the talk. He said the best thing about rooming with Joe Cox was I realized there were white people that were poorer than I was, which is-
SM (01:34:41):
Economics. Economics. Dr. King talked about that.
JC (01:34:41):
Which is on the record. I knew Dr. King from my lenses, and obviously he was such an elegant person and such an articulate person that even as a dumb kid, that made a big difference. Malcolm X, I probably did not know him through my own lenses. What I learned, I probably learned from a young Black radical. And I saw the movie, so I think I know Malcolm X. But I thoroughly understand it. I understand the Black Muslim movement and thoroughly understand, I think, where he was.
SM (01:35:32):
What is really interesting when you talk about Malcolm X, "By any means necessary," which is that there is an indication that use guns if you have to. Of course, he changed the last two years after he came back to Mecca. That is what is amazing when you compare, I worked at a piece once on Malcolm and Bobby Kennedy, because Bobby Kennedy was always known as a ruthless guy. But the last two to three years, he had done great things with his brother. All you have to do was read 13 Days to understand that. But something about his personality changed. He was more likable. He was more empathetic, more passionate and caring. So, I have always compared the two of them and the fact that people can change in their lives. But when you look at three quotes by any means necessary by Malcolm X, then the Peter Max, who I always thought had the best quotes on his paintings to define the generation, which is, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, that will be beautiful." Of course, the third one was the quote that Bobby Kennedy used when he was in Indianapolis, and it was actually a quote from I think Henry David Thoreau. Is something about a time, "Some men see things they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not." When you look at those three statements, which one best defines the boomers? "By any means necessary," "You do your thing, I will do mine. By chance we should come together, it will be beautiful," and then Bobby Kennedy's, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were going to ask why not." Are they all part of the generation?
JC (01:37:04):
Well, I think they are all part of it. I think the cynic would say, you do yours and I will do mine. I think most would pop for the Bobby Kennedy.
SM (01:37:14):
Is that the quote?
JC (01:37:16):
No, it is the one from South Africa, but it is a good one.
SM (01:37:23):
I will read this to the tape here if you do not mind. "Each time a man stands up for an ideal or acts to improve the lot of others or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope in the crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring those ripples build a current, which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance," Robert Kennedy. Wow. Very nice. Just a couple more names here and then we're done. The Black Panthers, which is Huey Newton and Bobby Seal and Eldridge Cleaver and Angela Davis and Kathleen Cleaver and that group. Just your thoughts on Black power.
JC (01:38:08):
Well, in Vietnam, one of the books I got out of the Red Cross was Eldridge Cleaver's book.
SM (01:38:16):
Soul On Ice?
JC (01:38:17):
Yeah, Soul On Ice. I think they were criminals, but they were fashionable criminals. They are accepted-accepted.
SM (01:38:27):
How about Daniel Ellsberg in the Pentagon Papers?
JC (01:38:32):
Well, I think what he did ultimately was, I mean shedding light on things is good. I wonder about his motivation. I do not know him at all, but it is people with towering egos, boomer egos, who are going to shine a light on themselves no matter how they do it. So, there's a piece of that you kind of resent, but at the same time, the product is... I try to operate; do not do anything I would not want to see on the front page of the New York Times. You hope a lot of people work that way.
SM (01:39:11):
Yeah. How about the women, the Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug and Betty Friedan? They were three names that really come to the forefront. Shirley Chisholm's in that group. The Women's Movement.
JC (01:39:23):
They were pioneers and good spokesman. It is funny, though, I had a situation of someone I knew at North Carolina that was a student and worked with Bella Abzug, and Bella Abzug stood her up and kept the money. So, she did not come across as a nice person from that one experience. Of all of them, I have got this sense of Bella Abzug is not being a person of character.
SM (01:39:55):
How about the Daniel and Phillip Berrigan, because-
JC (01:39:58):
Yeah, good judges. Good judges.
SM (01:40:03):
Yeah. I actually had both of them on our campus, and we actually had Phillip on our campus. He gave his last public speech there at Westchester University before he died. A couple other quick things here. Barry Goldwater?
JC (01:40:22):
I understand why he lost, but there is almost a, I do not know, there is a nostalgia for... He seems from a different time, not even the (19)60s. He seems from even an earlier time. There is a certain elegance to what he said. I remember the campaign and I remember given my- I could not vote, but it was a bit shocking to me where he was coming from. But it did not...
SM (01:41:00):
I think there is a lot. Bill Buckley admired him, and Bill Buckley has been standing a lot of today's conservatives. He has passed away. But I can remember that when you think of the irony of a man who was destroyed by Lyndon Johnson, voting wise, numbers wise of the (19)64 election. And the fact that in 1974 it was himself and Hughes Scott, the senator from Tennessee, that were asked to go to the White House to ask Nixon to resign. His stature as a senator is very honest.
JC (01:41:34):
Well, there is an elegance and an integrity to him that at least looking back now, I appreciate much more.
SM (01:41:41):
He was a Korean War vet, too, I believe. A fighter pilot.
JC (01:41:44):
He was a general in the Air Force. My father looked a lot like him, too, so there is that part playing on it.
SM (01:41:53):
Two or three more here and then we are done. Tech. Tech was obviously very big in the military, big in Vietnam, big in the United States. There may have been lies on this in terms of the American public, too, about the impact. It really, really changed things.
JC (01:42:09):
Yeah-yeah. Walter Cronkite saying we have lost. Again, that is where Larry Summers, I think, gets it right. And that is why when I went to the Army War College, we were studying Clausewitz. There is a larger impact than just what happens on the battlefield or in one place. So, it was a victory because it impacted so many different areas. It was not a military victory, but it was a victory. It was a turning point.
SM (01:42:43):
The last person I was going to say was John Dean again, because he is the guy that went before the hearings there. Just your thoughts on John Dean. He was Nixon's lawyer.
JC (01:42:54):
Yeah. I think obviously there is a, in retrospect, you got to respect what he did. I probably should not end on this, but I remember thinking he had a very nice-looking wife.
SM (01:43:08):
And she came. They are still together. They live in California. Although, there are rumors that she had been a call-girl at one time. That really got him upset. Remember the bombshell that was... I forgot the congressman. Wanda.
JC (01:43:20):
Oh, yeah. Dancing in the fountain there.
SM (01:43:23):
Yes, there is that. The last question I want to ask you, because we have been talking about the time that boomers were basically teenagers and the rest of their lives. How important were the (19)50s? The (19)50s themselves in shaping the boomer generation. I am always fascinated because when I think of the (19)50s, I think of my parents giving me all they could give. Great Christmases, great Thanksgivings, great birthdays, just always being there kind of good times. But we knew there was racism, we knew what was going on in the South, but it was kind of hidden. It seemed like a time of peace, but the Cold War was on. We came so close to nuclear bomb. But as children, though, maybe they do not have a sense of understanding. We'd watch Mickey Mouse Club every week and we would watch the TV westerns. We did not really see the difference between good and bad. The bad was always the Native American Indian. Hop Along Cassidy, all the shows seem like a time of peace. And all of a sudden you start getting into the (19)60s and everything is kind of rebelling against the parents. What was it about the (19)50s that shaped the boomers?
JC (01:44:41):
You watch Mad Men?
SM (01:44:42):
Yes, I do. Yes, I did.
JC (01:44:47):
I think all those hidden tensions. I just think that is one of the best shows I think I have ever seen. There is so much of maybe what I want to remember, the tensions and the unspoken frustrations. In the (19)50s, I think that lack of confrontation led to more of an over confrontation. My parents were products of the depression and products of the Second World War.
SM (01:45:34):
So were mine.
JC (01:45:34):
My father never really got over at the Second World War. He was a pretty hard man until he moved back to the Catholic Church later in life. Claire used to say, "Your father is wonderful. Why cannot you talk to him?" I said, "Claire, that is not the man I grew up with. You have changed him." I grew up obviously wanting to please my father in so many ways, but not ever going to acknowledge him in an open way. I think that probably creates a certain schizophrenia that showed itself in the boomer generation.
SM (01:46:17):
Yeah, those times. I had nothing but good memories of those times, but then I am always deeply reflecting on things. I remember, my dad used to win trips. He worked for Prudential and he won trips to Florida for sales and (19)57, (19)58, (19)59. We took trips for two weeks, got out of school and we drove. You had to drive by the poor homes in the South. It was just eye-opening. One time we were at a restaurant and it was like Aunt Jemima was doing all the serving there. I started to, as a little boy, started to put things together. If you saw them, I met John Kennedy when I was... We were coming back from a vacation during the summer that he was campaigning, and he had been trying to get on a Roosevelt support. I have only read about this in later years. But my mom was tired. She said, "On the way back from vacation, let us stop at Hyde Park." So, we got there. My mom was tired, she crossed the street. They had a place where you could buy pictures back then, it's now gone. But my dad and my little sister and I, we walked in. We did not know what all the promotion was all about. Well, John Kennedy was in the library with Eleanor Roosevelt. So, we got in there and we were all waiting for him to come out the side door. I have been there many times since, and they got rid of the drive there where he was. But came out the side door, or someone was yelling, "He is coming out the side door," and so I ran over there and only one person shook his hand. Well, I got to be honest. I did not catch the grant, but I catched the top as a little boy. And he looked at me with his pin striped suit with that million dollar smile. My sister was on my dad's shoulder and she touched his suit and whatever. Little did I know that he would end up beating Nixon and then becoming president of the United States. When I went to college, that was my first one-minute speech, the most memorable moment in my life up until that point. So anyways, are there any, last question I always ask, is there a question that you thought I might ask that I did not ask that you'd like to make a final comment about the boomer generation and the generation that you grew up with? Or just some final thoughts on them as a whole? Because do not forget, they are approaching 62 now and they have still got their old age, the impact with their old age. So, any other final thoughts?
JC (01:48:50):
No, I think you covered an awful lot of ground. Pity you having to make sense out of it.
SM (01:48:58):
Well, I love doing it because... Thank you very much. Now, to turn this off.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Joseph Cox
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Cox, Joseph T., 1946- ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Soldiers; College teachers; Cox, Joseph T., 1946--Interviews
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Dr. Joseph T. Cox is a retired army officer, educator, author and the former headmaster of Haverford School. Cox was also an English professor at West Point. He earned a Bachelor’s degree from Lafayette College and a Master’s degree and Ph.D. from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
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2009-11-09
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.65a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.65b
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McKiernan Interviews
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109:05
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f1f2634b2d6e932e2eb6bab15e6075e3.pdf
e885c58f32cb585bb884d311eb0bde2f
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BINGHAMTON
U N I V E R S I T Y
STATE U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K
D E P A R T M E N T
THURSDAY
MIDDAY CONCERT
Thursday; November 12, 2009
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Sunday, November 15 from 6:30 – 9:30 p.m.
Casadesus Recital Hall Free
T ommm n u h u i g fl y w w mm a z m o w
�Binghamton University Musci Department’s
UPCOMING EVENTS
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Saturday, November 1 4 ” Student Clarinet Recital:
Sarah Fenster & Dan Fagen, 7:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Sunday, N ov ember1 5 ” Binghamton Philharmonic and the
Binghamton University Chorus: Songs of Destiny by Brahms and
Beethoven, 3:00 PM, Osterhout Concert Theater, (for tickets, call BPO at
607.723.3931)
Sunday, November
15% Concerto and Aria Competition, 6:30 PM,
Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Thursday, November 1 9 ” MidDay Concert, 1:20 PM FREE
Casadesus Recital Hall
Satur day, November 2 1 Master Recital: Julie Williams,
soprano,
8:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Sunday, N ovember 22™ Master Recital: Ashley Maynard, soprano,
3:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Thur sday, December 3 ” Jazz
MidDay Concert, 1:20 PM FREE
Casadesus Recital Hall
Thur sday, December 3 ” H
arpur Jazz Ensemble Concert (cosponsored
by the Harpur Jazz Ensemble and the Binghamton University Department of Music),
8:00 PM, Osterhout Concert Theater, $$ (FREE for students)
Friday, December 4 Flute Studio and Flute Chamber Concert,
10:15 AM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Friday, December 4 Elizabethan Madrigal Feaste (Harpur Chorale
and Women’s Chorus), 6:30 PM, Old Union Hall, $$
Friday, December 4 ” Master Recital: Susan Amisano, soprano,
8:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Satur day, December 5 Elizabethan Madrigal Feaste (Harpur
Chorale and Women’s Chorus), 6:30 PM, Old Union Hall, $$
For ticket information, please call the
. Ander son Center Box O ffice at 777ARTS.
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1960's - present
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
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Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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Thursday mid-day concert, November 12, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-11-12
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Held at 1:20 p.m., November 12, 2009, Casadesus Recital Hall.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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af60b16e6b037f37886896b44ea6125d
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Text
BINGHAMTON
UNIVERSITY
- ._
STATE UNIVERSITY OF
NEW YORK
,
usi
DEPARTMENT
DAN FAGEN
AND
SARAH FENSTER
SENIOR RECITAL
From the Studios of
April Lucas and Sarah Chandler
with
Margaret Reitz, piano
Saturday, November 14, 2009
8:00 p.m.
Casadesus Recital Hall
�PROGRAM
Concerto No. 1 in F minor, Op. 73(1811) ...... Carl Maria von Weber
(1786-1826)
I Allegro moderato
Sarah Fenster, clarinet
Pej Reitz, piano
Sonata (1732) ........................... .....
.................................... Henri Eccles
(1670-1742)
Sigurd Rascher, arr.
I Largo
II Courante
III Adagio
IV Presto
Dan Fagen, alto saxophone
Pej Reitz, piano
Suite from the Victorian Kitchen Garden (1989) .............. Paul Reade
(1943-1997)
I Prelude
II Spring
III Mists
IV Exotica
V Summer
Sarah Fenster, clarinet
Pej Reitz, piano
�Sonata, Op. 19 (1937)......... ............. ................ ................. Paul Creston
(1906-1985)
II With tranquility
III With gaiety
Dan Fagen, alto saxophone
Pej Reitz, piano
Eight Pieces, Op. 83 (1910) .............................................. Max Bruch
(1838-1920)
Harry Gee, arr.
I Andante con moto
II Allegro con moto
III Allegro vivace, ma non troppo
Dan Fagen, alto saxophone
Sarah Fenster, clarinet
Pej Reitz, piano
�ABOUT THE PERFORMERS
DAN FAGEN, from StatenIsland, NY, is a senior double majoring in music and
psychology at Binghamton University. He began playing clarinet when he was 9
years old and began playing alto saxophone at age 13. In high school, he began
studying jazz and improvisation with Ray Scro and Chris Garone. At
Binghamton, he has continued to be involved with jazz music, playing lead alto
saxophone in The Harpur Jazz Ensemble under the direction of Mike Carbone.
He recently began studying classical saxophone with Professor April Lucas. He
would like to thank Professor Lucas for fixing his long list of bad playing habits,
Professor Reitz for accompanying him, and his parents and friends for their
support.
SARAH FENSTER, from Buffalo, NY, is a double major in Sociology and
Geography at Binghamton University and will be graduating in May of 2010.
She is a three-year member of the University Wind Symphony, and has also been
studying with Sarah Chandler during her years at Binghamton. In the past, she
has played with various Erie County and NYSSMA ensembles. She would like to
thank her family and friends for always supporting her musical passion.
MARGARET (PEJ) REITZ, pianist, is a native of the Binghamton Area. She
received her Bachelor and Master of Music degrees in piano performance with
She attended Boston University, New England
accompanying emphasis.
Conservatory and Binghamton University. Ms. Reitz has studied piano with Jean
Casadesus, Victor Rosenbaum, Seymour Fink and Walter Ponce and
accompanying with Allen Rogers. She has accompanied throughout the United
States, in England, South America, Spain and at the American Institute of Musical
Studies in Graz, Austria. She was a winner of the Artistic Ambassadors Program
by the United States Information Agency in partnership with the John F. Kennedy
Center for the performing arts.
Ms. Reitz was an official pianist at the International Double Reed Competition
and Convention in 2007 at Ithaca College and was invited to play the 2009
Convention in Birmingham, England with the Glickman Ensemble. Ms. Reitz was
selected to accompany at the Interpretation of Spanish Music in conjunction with
University of Madrid in Grenada, Spain coached by Teresa Berganza and at
Mannes School of Music in the summer of 2008. She was a Guest Artist playing
two concerts in Granada, Spain this past summer and accompanied the Barcelona
Song Festival in July. She is the pianist for Theater Street Productions
performing concerts in Lenox, Mass and Newport Rhode Island this fall.
Ms. Reitz has been on the faculty at Binghamton University since 1991 and with
the Ithaca College School of Music since 1999. She is on the Executive Board of
the New York District MTNA organization. She is President of the local District
VII Music Teachers _Association and is an active adjudicator for the National
Piano Guild Organization.
�
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Coverage
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1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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1 audio disc
Duration
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53:03
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153184">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153184</a>
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Dan Fagen and Sarah Fenster senior recital: from the studios of April Lucas and Sarah Chandler, November 14, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-11-14
Description
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Held at 8:00 p.m., November 14, 2009, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Creator
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Fagen, Dan
Fenster, Sarah
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2009-11-14
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sound
-
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Coverage
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1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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1:07:55
57:21
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153187">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153187</a>
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University Symphony Orchestra concerto and aria competition, November 15, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-11-15
Description
An account of the resource
Held at 6:30 p.m., November 15, 2009, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2009-11-15
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sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/04301dbfe527dad1f6de9e98c6d231f8.jpg
4c56fd75b4adb5be65874a91c821c1cc
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cb4e9e9bf6e952e494982d4d937df9a5.mp3
068d680ba8683d1c6819fe1104219a17
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2009-11-19
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
David Lance Goines, 1945-2023
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for A Constructed Roman Alphabet."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4995,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for <em>A Constructed Roman Alphabet</em>.<br /><br />David Lance Goines died in Berkeley, California, on February 19, 2023, at the age of 77.<br /></span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam memorial&quot;}\" data-sheets-userformat=\"{&quot;2&quot;:4993,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;10&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}\">Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam memorial.</span>"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588}}">Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam Memorial</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
82:41
Subject LCSH
Artists; Calligraphers; Typographers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Goines, David Lance, 1945--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: David Lance Goines
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 19 November 2009
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:09):
Testing one, two. David Lance Goines. Okay. The first question I want to ask, and then speak loud into your machine, into your phone. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
DG (00:00:34):
Well, there were so many things going on, that one of the biggest changes was development of birth control pills, which truly profoundly altered the way young people engaged in their sexual explorations. That is both an indicator of, creator of what was going on in 1960, a remarkable change in sexual relations. There were a lot of other things. Baby boomers of course were feeling their oats, and the explosion of changes in society due to their powerful influence. The change in music became very much focused on the young generation and the change in sexual morality, the adoption of what had thereto for been peripheral or non-existent drugs. The whole change in art, which once again was pretty much young folks art and fashion. Basically, I would say the tremendous shift in social power from the older generation to the baby boomers.
SM (00:02:16):
Is there one specific event? I think I know what it is, but let us say before the free speech movement, was there one specific event in your life that made you who you are before you even stepped foot on that Berkeley campus?
DG (00:02:29):
Well, it would not have been before I set foot on the Berkeley campus, but Berkeley campus was the big changing event. I mean, I was headed toward a life of probably academic accomplishment. I was headed toward probably a professorship eventually, and that seems like a reasonable place for me to have been headed perhaps, and perhaps an attorney. I did not really know. I had previously been studied for the Luther Print Ministry, and that did not work out. I was pretty much at loose ends as far as a career was concerned and was pursuing my interest in classical literature, Greek and Latin language literature, which I was not doing terribly well, and was going to be shifting more towards liberal arts probably in that sophomore year. But I had become involved, through my roommates, with a number of campus organizations, which were relatively innocuous and also had become involved once again through with the civil rights movement, which I had not previously had much attention paid. Basically, becoming involved with the organization slate caused my expulsion at the beginning of sophomore year, and that of course completely changed my path. Had I not been expelled that day, I would have gone a very, very different path.
SM (00:04:39):
Well, you have already answered the question, how did the free speech movement change your life, but what did this movement say about the boomer generation itself? Did what happened at Berkeley change how the universities treat students and the impact that this has still today on university campuses? The reason why I bring this up, David, because it was very obvious that people like you and Mario and others were understood what if student empowerment was all about. Still there? Hello? Hello?
Speaker 3 (00:05:19):
If you would like to make a call then-
SM (00:05:20):
Oops. What happened at Berkeley? How did this change how universities treat students today? Did you see that this impact has been ongoing, or have universities gone back to the way they were? Still there?
Speaker 3 (00:05:37):
If you would like to make a call, please hang up and try-
DG (00:05:37):
If not, we might have to do this by email.
SM (00:05:50):
Or else I can maybe do it on myself. What did the movement say about the boomer generation, and I speak about the free speech movement, and did what happened at the Berkeley campus back in (19)64 and (19)65 really change how universities looked at students, not only then, but now?
DG (00:06:13):
One change that was very noticeable with the University of California campuses thereafter were built without any central meeting places. Santa Cruz University, for example, has no center. There is no place for students to get together and hold protests. It has separate campuses that are widely distributed, and in fact many, many students do not see students from other departments. The fear of student unrest has haunted the university, and of course right now with the dramatic raise you can see the university is experiencing another episode of unrest. Whether or not they deal with this appropriately or whether they can deal with it appropriately remains seen. I do not think it is going to be the same kind of protests by any means, but the sector of student unrest certainly haunts universities all over the United States and in other countries as well.
SM (00:07:28):
Do you feel, David, part of this is because the people that are now running the universities were boomers and that they may have been non-activist boomers, but they experienced it as students or whatever, and they knew what happened. That is ironic that a lot of them are either boomers or the generation that [inaudible]
DG (00:07:52):
One of the administrators talking today to the newspaper about the student unrest at the University of California said, "In my student days, I would have done the same." His student days were probably my student days, although he seems a little younger. The University of California and other campuses really are having terrible financial problems, and they are dealing with them the way most other large government organizations are, which is by not cutting their gigantic staff, but by raising prices for their services. This is making university students very, very unhappy. However, university students are not going to not get an education simply because it is expensive. Things are going to change. They are going to be really unhappy. They are going to make the administration aware that they are really unhappy, but I do not think they are actually going to accomplish anything. We were dealing with idealistic issues. We were not talking about paying more money for something. We had a very, very strong assessment side as whole. Our lives were changed a great deal, and the whole course of American history was changed a great deal, but I do not think there is any real comparison between what we were doing then and what kids are doing now.
SM (00:09:37):
When you look at the boomer generation though, would not you say that one of their qualities, characteristics is this business of challenging authority, a concept of activism?
DG (00:09:53):
We did so, because we could. We were very powerful, and there were more of us, we had more economic clout, we had a growing political clout. I mean, remember most of us at that time were under 21 and we could not vote. The voting age has since gone down, and the power of this block that was emerging into its voting potential was truly sobering to the elected, the representatives. They knew that in only a very short period of time, we were going to be the ones doing the voting, and we already showed how powerful we were. Just as with the women's movement when the women got the vote in 1919, this tremendously changed the attitude of politicians because they knew that all of a sudden there was a huge voting block that was not there before. They had not had to pay any attention to it at all. The same the happened with our huge voting block that moved pretty much as the unit into the polls. It did not turn out the way we had in mind, of course, because things never do, but we continually developed our economic, social and political power, which is now fully in our hands at this point. People do not give up power once they have gotten it, and we are not going to give up power either. The new generation is going to have to figure out how to get power away from us, probably by waiting around until we die, which will work extremely well.
SM (00:11:41):
What do you think are, list some characteristics that you think define the boomer generation. Again, it is between 70 and 74 million people and we are dealing with a lot of different people here, but if there were characteristics, what would be their strengths and their weaknesses?
DG (00:11:58):
Well, the strengths are that we actually possess a great deal of real power. Weaknesses is that we have basically, now that we are in power, we are quite complacent. We really genuinely changed American society when we think of birth control bill, think of abortion, think of civil rights movement, think of the anti-Vietnam protest, and so on and so forth. The change in morality, the change in the way society behaves and views itself is entirely due to our pressure. But once we got what we wanted, we relaxed. We are also, to some extent, preventing the younger generation from the asserting its power and control because we have it and we do not particularly want to give it up. As I said, they are going to have to be patient, wait till we start dying in much, much larger numbers.
SM (00:12:58):
What do you feel has been the impact that boomers have had on their children and their grandchildren? We are dealing with college students today that are so-called millennials, and they do not really have any problem with their parents, but only about 15-20 percent now of the parents are boomers. They are generation Xers now who are having their kids in college.
DG (00:13:17):
We are the grandparents at this point. Well, we still basically own everything. I mean, we physically own everything and we are responsible. I mean people like me, I bought my house in 1980. My monthly mortgage payment is about half a bunch people pay for an apartment. I bought my shop, the building I am in, in 1980. I got my business started in 1965. I am basically firmly entrenched. I am not having the economic problems that a lot of other people are having. Young people now, I mean when I went to college, my semester fees were $75. I worked my way through school. I had a halftime job as a page in the library, a dollar and a quarter an hour, and I was-was not rich, but I was not having a problem. It is not possible to work your way through college now. It is not possible. Nobody, even at the public university level, can work their way through school. It is not possible. The private universities do not even think about it. What happens is that when I also, when graduated or potentially graduated, I was more or less guaranteed a job simply possessing a college degree, guaranteed a good job. Now possessing a college degree is a guarantee of getting a job as a waiter or a waitress.
SM (00:14:58):
Yeah, you are right.
DG (00:14:58):
You are not equipped to go out into the job market unless you have gone into some art sciences like my nephew who is mechanical engineer or my niece who's a nurse. If you have gone into hard sciences or hard social services, yes you will get a job, but if you have got a degree in medieval French literature, that and 10 cents will get you a cup of coffee. It is worthless. You enter the job market with the degree that basically does not give you anything and that this makes people very, very unhappy. They are deeply in debt and they have got something that is not negotiable currency, whereas when I went in and not only was I not in debt, I was guaranteed good employment. I mean, this makes you very sad and very-very thick apart.
SM (00:15:58):
Right.
DG (00:16:01):
I think that the current generation is bitterly disappointed. I mean, basically we say in jest that my generation used up all the fun, but we not only did we use up all the fun, we used up all the money. Things are bad now, and they are going to get worse. I am the leading edge of social security, and millions and millions of my fellow Americans are going to demand that social security. Well, there is no money for it. You do not get a good job when you graduate from college, you are deeply in debt if you graduate from college, and you are not guaranteed basically anything that we took for granted. We just took for granted all these wonderful things. For my dollar and a quarter an hour job, for one hour's labor. I could buy five or six gallons of gasoline, I could buy 25 candy bars, I could get a pack of cigarettes of beer and a decent meal for my one hour's work. Now how many packs of cigarettes can you get at minimum wage now, one? How many gallons of gasoline can you get for your, let us say $8 an hour, two or three? How many candy bars can you buy, between six and eight? Okay, that is a huge, huge difference. Wages have not kept up the cost of living. For a while, it looked like anybody who wanted to get a house, but that turns out not to work out too well. You cannot get a house now. I mean, you have to be able to, people right now are coming up 40 percent down payments, and that is what allows them to get a loan from a bank. No more of this signature stuff. The economic situation is bad, but my generation, the first generation in history of America, of human race, never to go hungry. We never wanted for food. That had never happened before. My parents were both very badly malnourished during the Depression. My mother went temporarily blind from a vitamin B deficiency. Her parents lived through miserable economic time. They had a very hard time. We did not know what want was. My whole generation, beginning in 1945 when I was born, everything was swell. We were the only intact economic power in the world. We fed ourselves and everybody else. We bought our own cars, we bought our own product. Nobody else could compete with us either financially or economically or in terms of production, and that is over. That has changed.
SM (00:19:27):
Where does the blame? Is there a blame game here? The boomer generation, and you know this being in Berkeley and elsewhere, that they are the many of the boomers felt that they were the most unique generation in American history because they were going to change the world. They were going to end racism, sexism, and war. They were going to create a whole new world of love and peace and harmony.
DG (00:19:52):
Good does not it?
SM (00:19:53):
What went wrong?
DG (00:19:55):
Well, nothing went wrong. You cannot change everything just because you want to. Also, think there is the law of unintended consequences that crops up. If you want the Peace Corps and you want to help all the starving people in Africa, you have to realize that what you are creating is a dependent population that you are going to have to keep on feeding because they do not have the ability to feed themselves. When you run out of money and you decide you cannot keep feeding everyone in Africa, what is going to happen to those people? Well, they are going to get really mad. You mean well, you really do mean well, but the road to hell is paved with good intention. We have created all sorts of whirlwinds. That tornadoes out there without really meaning to, we did not mean harm, we did not end war. Just wanting to end war is not going to make it end. It does not take two people to fight, it only takes one, and you cannot spread your message of peace, love, and good vibes to those who are not interested. He comes up and starts pounding on you with his fist. Well, either fight back or not, but that has nothing to do with what he has done. My message of peace and love will not really work. It is not one [inaudible] We had tremendous economic and manufacturing power, and because of that we did not develop anything that we perhaps should have. For example, small cars. We did not need small cars. We had huge roads, we had plenty of gas with really cheap. We did not have to pay any attention to the small car market, so in the 1970s, there was a small car market that had been created by foreign manufacturers and there was absolutely nothing that American manufacturers had so the market began to shift toward foreigners. Had we developed small cars in the 1950s and 1960s, would have been a very different story, but we did not because we did not have to. Now, I look down the street and I see oh zero American cars. That would be not one single American car. I am seeing all foreign cars. They are German, they are Japanese. Nope. They are German car. Because of Toyota, right. Where are the American cars? Well, they are going out of business. Why are they going out of business? Because they did not respond to a market that they did not know was there. It is noticeable, it is not bad. They did not have to change, so they did not.
SM (00:22:58):
How do you respond to the critics of the boomer generation? You see them all the time. George Will, whenever he gets a chance, oftentimes writes articles blaming the problems of our society today on that generation that grew up in the (19)60s and (19)70s. I believe he is part of it, but he has written a lot about the failure of that time. Newt Gingrich, when he came into power in (19)94, talked about it and he still does occasionally, that all the problems, the drug culture, the lack of the sexual revolution, all the concept of everybody is a victim, all these things, the welfare state, everything. Breakup of the American family, divorce rate, all goes back to those times when boomers were young and whether in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and the way they lived their lives so the problems were all during that time. The Democratic Party even broke apart because of that.
DG (00:23:59):
Let us suppose for the sake of discussion that they are absolutely right. So what? What are they going to do? Get back to the way back machine and go back to the 1945 and me not being conceived? How are they going to change anything by their pointing and complaining? Does not make the slightest difference. I do not pay any attention to it. They are remarks are meaningless. Are you going to go back and un-invent birth control pills? Are you going to go back and change any of the developments that have happened? Are you going to not let us go to the moon? How are you going to do all that? Well, you are not going to do it. It is a waste of my breath to even respond to their criticism, and therefore will not respond to their criticism.
SM (00:24:46):
How about the movements? Because one of the things we all know historically, not only what happened at the free speech movement, but the civil rights movement was already strong, and the anti-war movement became very big at the time boomers were young, but it also spawned other movements like the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, Chicano, Native American, the environmental movement. It goes on and on. Could you talk about those movements and how important they were in defining the generation?
DG (00:25:15):
They were happening anyway. One thing that is important to remember is that the mill does not make the water run, my great-grandmother often said. An example is the Clairol hair coloring product. They did not create women's demand for hair coloring. They recognized that there was a product that would do it and they capitalized on it. The women's movement has been in continuous operation since about 1795, and we did not create it. We merely responded to what was already going on. Do they want to go back and not give women the vote and have all that fun again? I do not think so. The changes in society have far more to do with technological changes and sheer mass. When I was born, there were 135 million people in the United States. How many are there now? Triple that? Did we cause this terrible thing to happen? No, we did not. Right? The welfare system that we inherited was a product of the late 1940s and early 1950s. We had nothing, whatever to do that. I was seven years old. The welfare system and the terrible things that have come in consequence of that would be perhaps you can blame Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Be my guest. But just because there is a problem does not mean there is a solution, and if there is a solution, the famous quote, "To every question is a simple, easy to understand, wrong answer." The environmental situation in which we are was certainly not started by us. That was begun by Rachel Carlson in 1963. Well, I would have been how old? 20? No, 18. Sorry, I did not start it. The birth control pill, that was started by Margaret-
SM (00:27:29):
Sanger.
DG (00:27:31):
Margaret Sanger and Katherine McCormick. That was 1958. I was eight. No, wait. How old was I? 13. I did not do it. Sorry, wrong guy. These people have complaints about the things that have happened in our society, they should complain to the preceding generation, if anything.
SM (00:27:56):
One must say though, the anti-war movement was something very strong to the boomers, and particularly your thoughts on how important the boomers were on college campuses and ending that Vietnam War?
DG (00:28:08):
I do not think we were terribly important in ending the war. We were very important to making it quite clear that we were not happy about being drafted. There were wars that had been going on for quite a while before that people demonstrated great unhappiness with, but the wars went on nonetheless. The mistake of the powers that be was in drafting college students. College students did not want to go. Do not draft the ones who can fight back, draft the ones who cannot fight back. I do not know what result, I mean that war was a mistake. It was pretty obvious that we had gotten off on the wrong foot. But unfortunately, once you start something, just because you realize you have made a mistake does not mean you can end it. If I look out there and I see, oh my God, there is a huge forest fire. Let me blow out the match that I just started it with, what does that do? That does nothing. Right? Just because there is a big forest fire and you started it with your match, does not mean that blowing out the match have any effect. I know what caused it, but there is nothing I can do about it. I mean, if you had asked me to go talk to Ho Chi Minh, maybe things would be different, but I was not old enough.
SM (00:29:43):
When did the?
DG (00:29:43):
[inaudible] was 1954. I was what? Eight, seven.
SM (00:29:47):
Right. Yeah. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
DG (00:29:55):
1960s began in 1960 and they ended in 1970. I mean, what do you mean?
SM (00:30:00):
Was there a watershed moment that you knew that this-
DG (00:30:03):
[inaudible] event? No, there were many, many things. There were many, many things that contributed to it, and the 1960s is just a convenient calendar moment. Delete the calendar. It had no effect. There were so many things going on. A lot of it had to do with the economic power of those who became recognized as the boomers. A lot of it had to do with the immense technological and social power of the United States. After World War II, a lot of us had to do with amazing technological changes that were quite unthought of in the 1940s. Take computers for example. They just all came together with the confluence of things. You can start at any level you want. You can start talking about the combine harvester and chemical fertilizer, you can talk about changes in metallurgy. Where do you want to start? Everything came together, and it was largely because of our extremely large number and our tremendous self. We had a huge amount of power, and we used the power because when you have power, you use it. But what you do [inaudible] First, we asked permission nicely and then when that turned out not to work too well, we did what we goddamn well pleased, and no one could stop us.
SM (00:31:52):
People that say that, well, (19)60s really began when John Kennedy was killed and it really ended either Kent State or when the helicopter flew off the building in Saigon in (19)75.
DG (00:32:08):
They are free to say that if they wish.
SM (00:32:19):
Right.
DG (00:32:19):
But there are no beginnings, there are no endings.
SM (00:32:21):
I am just speculating here. If I had 500 people off from all over the country in an auditorium and we took a vote on the event that shaped their line lives the most, what do you think the number one event would be?
DG (00:32:34):
Depends who these people are. You are just thinking them at random?
SM (00:32:39):
Yeah-yeah. Just boomers. Anybody born to-
DG (00:32:42):
Oh, someone born after 1945 and before 1960?
SM (00:32:44):
(19)64.
DG (00:32:46):
(19)64, whatever it is. I do not know. There would be probably many-many answers. There were huge, amazing technological things that happened. Man landing on the moon is pretty darn dramatic. The relaxation of social [inaudible] as far as literature, movie, books, and the like. The computer, probably I would have to say technologically the computer. This is having as much effect on society as the invention of printing by movable type and 1456, and the change is happening every bit as fast. Socially, the sheer numbers of people who came into existence after World War II in the United States, they are simple numbers. They are simple numbers and their immense economic power. Young people always want to have sex, and drugs, and rock and roll. I mean, that is what they all want. But we could actually get away with it, so many of it. They had so much power. Basically, the grownups could not stop us. They tried. Now we are the grown-ups.
SM (00:34:16):
When the (19)60s happened and a lot of the challenge of two authority took place on college campuses, I would go back to the (19)50s when things seemed to be so calm and most of the boomers were in elementary school. They had great Christmases and Thanksgivings. They were always with their parents. Parents were providing them with...
DG (00:34:36):
Unlike Ronald Reagan.
SM (00:34:37):
A lot. Of course, we watched black and white television, and of course we were had the thread of the nuclear bomb all the time, but the kids I was around never really thought that much about the nuclear bomb.
DG (00:34:50):
You are actually buying Ronald Reagan's stick and chain world.
SM (00:34:54):
No, I am not buying it.
DG (00:34:55):
[inaudible]
SM (00:34:57):
But the question is, what was it? Was there something about the (19)50s that helped shape young people? Even if they were only reaching junior high school when 1960 arrived, but was there something about the (19)50s that somehow helped shape them, whether it be television or?
DG (00:35:16):
Never went hungry. Never wanted for food. It had never happened before. This is extremely important. We never went hungry. We did not know what privation was. We expected whatever we wanted, and we got it. The 1950s were, remember, right after World War I, World War II, and the Great Depression. People were poor. They were poor for a long time. One whole generation. My father, for example. Now my grandfather born in World War I, then there was the Great Depression, then there was World War II, and then there is the (19)50s where it can buy a new refrigerator for the very first time. You can buy a car. You do not have to drive that 1932 Ford anymore. You could buy whatever you wanted. It was wonderful. There was everything. Buy anything you wanted to, whereas for the preceding, oh what, 70 years, had not been able to buy anything, right? During the war, could you buy a new dress? No, you could not. Did you get all the butter you wanted? No, you could not. Get a new refrigerator? No. Did you get a new car? No, they were not making cars or refrigerators. In the 1950s, all of a sudden, not only could you get a new refrigerator, but you get a new refrigerator that actually worked. You could get a new car that was actually pretty good. My grandfather, neither my father nor my grandfather had that new car ever in their lives. My father's first car was in 1934 Dodge, and it was a piece of junk but it was all there was. You were not risking your life in some war. You were not starving because you did not have any money. You were not basically living in a barter economy where you were trading eggs for say, gasoline. It was a wonderful world and that the world I was born into, and I did not know any different. I had never been in a world with privation.
SM (00:37:42):
But you admit though, that there was privation in the (19)50s because when you watched black and white TV and you watched the Mickey Mouse Club and you saw all those Hobby Duty and all the television shows, you never saw people of color.
DG (00:37:55):
Well, there might have been privation, but compared to what had been going on before, believe me, it was nothing. I mean, you can say, yeah, people were poor, people were unhappy. Well, people are always poor and they are always unhappy, but compared to the 1930s, compared to the war years, compared to World War I, get real. Come on. Do not try to get the private. A person on welfare now has a better standard of living than a middle class family of 1900. A middle class American family of 1900 would have nothing like the expectations set up Negro on welfare in Oakland gets. Nothing. No comparison. Clean water, good streets, automobile, television, telephone, electrical power, adequate, safe food. Come on. There is no comparison.
SM (00:38:54):
Do you feel that? This is a question I just want to ask, and we asked the same question to Senator Musky a year before he passed away, when I took students down to Washington, DC and he had an interesting response that we did not expect. But here is the question. I want to read this to you. It says, "Do you feel boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth. The division between black and white, divisions between those who supported authority and those who were against it, between those who supported the troops and those who did not? We know that the Vietnam Memorial in Washington has healed many of the veterans and their families, but what has it really done to heal the nation as James Scruggs says in the title of his book?" Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this about 40 years later? Where it is a statement time heals all wounds, the truth. I say this because when we asked Senator Musky this, we were thought he was going to talk about 1968 and all those divisions at the Chicago Convention, and his response is we have not healed since the Civil War. He was in the hospital, and he said he had saw the Ken Burn series and it really touched him with 400,000 people that died and almost a generation wiped out and the population was obviously a lot smaller than it is today, but just your thoughts on this is there an issue of healing?
DG (00:40:29):
Okay, the first place, you have asked a question that contains its own answer, and consequence I cannot answer it. You say, what are we doing about the rift that was created? That means I have to say there was a riff. I do not believe it. I cannot answer your question. It is what we call a false question. This is not the kind of thing you cannot get away with in a court of law, leading the witness, right? You might say, was there a division? If there was a division, is it healing in the first place? I say there is always people who want A and people who do not want A and people who want B and do not want B. This is constantly going on. I do not think you are going to find people. You will have no trouble, for example, finding people who are unhappy about women being given the to vote in 1919. You will have no trouble finding people who are unhappy about that. You will have no trouble finding people unhappy about everything. It is the way it is. People are unhappy, or they have nothing better to do. They will be unhappy about something. Right? Was there a division? Of course there was a division. Is it healing? Who cares? So what? It is over with. Cannot go back and change it, right? If I could go back to Franklin Delano Roosevelt Administration and talk to him about some of the problems that were created by his wonderful Social Security Administration and by the marvelous welfare system [inaudible] in place and say, "It is not going to work. It is going to do terrible things. You cannot build a pyramid scheme. If you take people and make them dependent upon you for their lives, it is not going to work. It is going to create terrible problems in society." If I were to say do not do it, do not force people to give you part of their money and then guarantee that you were going to support them for as long as they worked in a [inaudible] I am accustomed. My father's contribution to social security was critically small. I mean he earned $10,000 a year, big bucks, but how much did he put into social security and then how much did he take out? He lived a good long life after he retired, maybe 25 years, and all that time he is getting money and a lot of money too. There was nothing like the $300 a year that he put in. I mean, you actually think he is going to live on $300 a year? No, he cannot live on $300 a year. Where is that money coming from? Well, from the next generation. Okay, now where is your pyramid scheme? Your pyramids team will always fail, and that is what social security is, a pyramids scheme, and it is failing. I cannot do anything about it. I cannot go back and change it. There is nothing I can do. If you ask me, were there division? Of course there were division. What can I do about it? Nothing. This is not like voluntarily turning off the water. Honey, would you please turn off the water? Sure, I will go turn it off right now. This is not like that. This is the past. Cannot change it. You cannot even recognize what happened. One of the fallacies of sociology is that it actually thinks it knows what is going on. They actually think they know what is going on. Do you know any economists who are not ashamed of their trade right now? Did they predict this big meltdown? No, they did not. It seems blindingly obvious in retrospect.
SM (00:44:30):
Do you think the wall has done, and you have probably been to the wall, have not you?
DG (00:44:34):
The Vietnam Memorial?
SM (00:44:34):
Yeah.
DG (00:44:34):
Yeah. Beautiful.
SM (00:44:38):
Do you think that is done? Jan Scruggs book is all about, he thought this was the first step toward healing the nation beyond even the veterans. I go there every year for Memorial Day and Veterans Day.
DG (00:44:51):
I suppose these people have to write books to make a living. I think that is nonsense.
SM (00:44:56):
Okay.
DG (00:44:57):
You actually think building a sculpture is going to undo 58,000 deaths. Ask the wives and mothers sometimes, ask the girlfriends, I have a neighbor who had just died, whose son was killed in World War II, who pined all her life long for a lover who was killed in World War I. Ask the wives and mothers of all those people who were killed how do they feel about it? Are they going to heal? No, they are not going to heal. There is no healing. These people are dead. You cannot heal that. Get over it, kind of. Still there?
SM (00:45:45):
Yep. I am here. Let me change the tape. I got to turn my tape over. This leads into my next question, which is a question on the issue of trust whether the boomer just generation is not a trusting generation. I say this-
DG (00:46:01):
Well, why should we be? We were lied to constantly.
SM (00:46:05):
Yep. That is why I brought up because of the Watergate, the Tonkin Golf Resolution, we even saw Eisenhower lie about U-2, and there seemed to be no respect for anyone in position of authority.
DG (00:46:17):
Well, a politician's job is to lie. That is their job. That is what we pay them for. We pay them to do two things that we do not want. One is make damn laws all the time, whether we need them or not. I mean, that is what we ask them to do. We say, "Okay, we are going to elect you to make a bunch of laws," and that is what they do. They take us at our word, they make a bunch of laws. They do not know what they are doing. They mess things up. The second thing is that in order to get reelected, because half the population is really mad at them all the time, they have to lie all the time. It is a habit. They do not even mean it. There is no malice. They just lie. It is what they do. Do I trust politicians? No, I do not. Do I have any alternative? No, I do not. I cannot live in anarchic society. I cannot live somewhere else. I live here. I live now. I live in the 21st century. I cannot live some other [inaudible] or some other place. This is what I have got. They are liars, so I do not trust them. So what?
SM (00:47:23):
Do you believe what political scientists often say is that to the lack of trust in your government is actually a healthy thing, because by just-
DG (00:47:33):
[inaudible] very best of health in that case.
SM (00:47:35):
Yeah, I want to be, you are a great artist. I have been looking at some of your work, and we think of you in the free speech movement, but boy, you are one heck of an artist. I am going to eventually buy some of your works and everything, but how do the arts define the boomer generation from other generations before and after? I think I mentioned in my note, we all think of the arts at that time, we think of Andy Warhol and Peter Max's posters and all those other things during that time. But what were the messages of the artwork that took place when the boomers were young that have been ongoing since that time, and is it is the art from that period and the people that grew up in that period a reflection of the times which were rebellious and non-conformist? Just your thoughts on the art itself.
DG (00:48:31):
Well, I think art is basically something that each generation reevaluates and create for itself. Let us take an example of Vermeer. Vermeer was, during his lifetime, largely unrecognized. I do not believe he sold any paintings. He was utterly obscure until the late 19th century when one of one particular critic rediscovered him, and through a series of amusing circumstances, he became more and more prominent. Now, whereas in 1875, you could have bought girl with a pearl earring for six guilders, which no matter how you cut it is not very much money. I do not believe you could buy that painting for any sum, whatever. I mean, let us suppose if I said I will give you $100 billion for that painting, you probably would turn me down. Okay, what happened? Well, a new generation came along and reevaluated the art that had been rejected by an older generation. The same thing exactly happened to been Van Gogh. He sold, I believe, one painting during his life, but maybe none. That which was reviled by an earlier generation is treasured by a new one because everything changes. Van Gogh is not any different of course. Van Gogh paintings are absolutely utterly the same paintings that he painted, but our attitudes toward him is entirely different. Our attitudes toward our own art, there are artists who were unbelievably famous and wealthy in their day whom you have never heard of. I assure you, you have never heard of them. Sir Lawrence Alma-Tadema, have you ever heard of him?
SM (00:50:16):
No.
DG (00:50:17):
Okay. He was the most famous artist in the world in the late 19th century. He made more money than anybody ever, ever made, and you have never heard of him. All right. There you have it. Right? We do not like his art. We think it is silly. It is coming back. Be patient. But art is our own. We like it because it is ours. We do not like it because it is good. We do not like it because it addresses human issues that are eternal. We like it because it belongs to us. It is ours, of course we like it. We like our own stuff. The old Yiddish saying, "A fart has no nose." Of course, we like our own stuff. It is ours. Check back in 100 years to see what people think of entirely white paintings with long, long explanations attached to them. Check back and see what people think of crucifixes encased in plastic bags filled with urine. Check back. Let me know what happens. I doubt it is going to make it.
SM (00:51:28):
Why was Warhol and Peter Max so popular with young people, boomers?
DG (00:51:33):
Because they spoke to their generation. They are ours. You like your own stuff. Right? I personally never cared for them, but then again, I am in the minority evidently. I do not like Van Gogh either, so hey, I am a minority. I beg your pardon?
SM (00:52:00):
No, go right ahead. Continue.
DG (00:52:00):
You know like your own stuff. Our generation likes things that our generation does. The next generation is probably going to throw a lot of it away, but then they will create their own stuff that they like. I do not know what posterity is going to think of me, and frankly, I do not care. I will be dead. Do not make much money when you are dead. I do not care. I am a working artist right now. I do art for a living. I am really happy to do that. I am very grateful that I can make a living doing what I [inaudible] and I get paid for it. My brother, who is a jazz musician gets paid to play music. Boy is he happy, right? He does not say, "What is posterity going to think of me?" He says, "How can I pay the rent?" That is what I say too. I am glad people are paying me to do what I love to do, and I am glad I am recognized and that people like my artwork, and my brothers really glad that people pay him to play music and he is really glad that they like it. But neither one of us gives a hoot in hell about what the next generation thinks, [inaudible]
SM (00:53:05):
How about, you are talking about art. Let us talk about music. The music is really something that defines the boomers, and not only in terms of folk music, rock music, and certainly the Motown sound, but how important was that with respect to delivering the messages that many of the youth had and the impact they had on the generation?
DG (00:53:26):
Just like any other generation, it is theirs. That music is ours. In 1920, our music was jazz. We created it. It is ours, it belongs to us, and it really helps the grownups do not like it. That makes us very, very happy. Grownups do not like anything that their kids too. Grownups do not want their kids to become independent. Grownups want their kids to be kids, and kids want to be grownups. I like my own music. I like my generation of music because it is mine, and I do not like that new rap music. Does that sound vaguely familiar?
SM (00:54:05):
Yes.
DG (00:54:08):
I do not like that new rap music. Why do not I like it? It is just noise. It is jungle music. Cannot understand the lyrics. It is all about sex and violence. Oh, that is me quoting my dad when he first heard rock and roll. I am quoting my dad, and you know what his dad said in the 1920s when he was looking at jazz? It is jungle music. It is just noise. Cannot understand the lyrics, all about sex. It is same stuff, right? Nothing ever changes. We like our music, but it is ours. That is why we like it.
SM (00:54:46):
Do not forget, Elvis came about in the (19)50s.
DG (00:54:49):
We love Elvis. He is ours.
SM (00:54:52):
Yeah.
DG (00:54:53):
Belongs to what? He was banned by the grownups. Remember Ed Sullivan?
SM (00:55:01):
Yes.
DG (00:55:05):
Cutting him off at the hips.
SM (00:55:05):
Yep.
DG (00:55:05):
Ooh, boy did that make my parents mad.
SM (00:55:05):
I think the Doors when they were on Ed Sullivan, Jim Morrison could not say a couple words from his music either.
DG (00:55:12):
We are in charge now. Right? My father is dead. He does not get to say what kind of music I listen to anymore.
SM (00:55:20):
David, what were the books? What were the books that you read and some of your peers read in the (19)60s that you think had an influence on the early boomers?
DG (00:55:35):
Well, honestly, I would say that it was not the books that we read. It was the books that we could not read. What we cared about was being prevented from reading, for example, Ulysses or Tropic of Cancer, or Lolita. These books are neither better nor worse than the other books, but we were not allowed to read them. The Supreme Court would not let us, and we changed that about as fast as we could. The important things are what is of our generation. The important things were what we were not allowed to read. When in 1952, when the comic books suddenly disappeared, that made me really mad. I was only seven, but my favorite comic books were the horror comics and the war comics, which was cauldron, and all of a sudden they all disappeared. Well, I believe me, I never forgot that. It was not so much what we did read. It was what we were not allowed to read. That is what I think made the big difference is that we forced the whole system to allow us to read anything we wanted to read. Then we either read or did not read. It is the thought that you do not have to go out and buy Lolita, and you do not have to read it if you do not want to, but there is nothing that prevents you from doing so, whereas that was absolutely not the case in the 1950s.
SM (00:57:06):
How influential were the beat writers in terms, because in the (19)50s, lack of respect for authority or rebellious and they were even ahead of their time.
DG (00:57:18):
For one thing, remember there were not terribly many of them. Another thing is an awful lot of their work could not be sent through the mail. Howl, for example, how would you get a copy of Powell? Could not mail it. They could not buy it on the news stand. It was not in the library. How influential were these words? They were influential because they were banned. Take away the ban, the stuff is pretty boring. I mean, Alan Ginsberg, come on, talks about nothing but his dick. Really boring, but prohibit it, and suddenly become fantastically interesting. When I read Howl, it was behind closed doors, my teacher could have been fired for allowing us to read it, in fact recommended it. That made it really cool. If you just said, "Okay, we are going to assign, you have to read Howl." Come on, this is terrible stuff, but told me I cannot read it, oh, very different story.
SM (00:58:23):
I have got three quotes here from three big personalities from that period, and which of these do you think better defines the era? Obviously the Malcolm X, "By any means necessary." We saw that all the time. Peter Max, he used to always have this quote on many of his posters. "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." The third one obviously is the Bobby Kennedy quote, which is actually I think a Henry David Thoreau quote, and that is, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?" That was very popular amongst the boomers and you still hear that quote today, but those are very popular quotes and statements and on posters back then. Is there one over the other or do they all kind of define the era?
DG (00:59:17):
They are all contentious content. The case of Malcolm X is probably, that would ring the truest, but believe me, I would rather lose the ability to understand the English language than agree with Peter Max. Politicians say what politicians say. Who pays any attention to them? I do not think I could agree very much with any of them. By any means necessary, what do you mean? You do not mean that. You cannot possibly mean that. That is a mad man talking. Besides, you always get things you do not want. You think you are doing A, in fact, you are really doing A subprime, which is extremely different. You think you are in control of your actions, but you are not. You are created by your time, you are created by circumstances. We are far, far more influenced by technology. We are far more influenced by changes in society that we do not even are really conscious of. There is some swell sounding quotes you can put out there. I like Robin Williams myself. "If you remember, you were not there." One of my favorites.
SM (01:00:49):
Yeah. Another one you hear a lot and with the 40th anniversary of Woodstock is that everybody claims they were there. They were not.
DG (01:00:55):
Yeah. There is also the number of people in Candlestick Park during the 1989 earthquake is quite surprising.
SM (01:01:05):
Wow.
DG (01:01:07):
Several million. I did not realize it was that big. There was a big football game in 1982, the great Cal-Stanford football game.
SM (01:01:18):
No, I was out there then, and that is when the musicians of the band came on the field.
DG (01:01:22):
You know how many people watched that happen? Well, I know for a fact 6,000 people sitting in that stadium, so the hundreds of thousands of people that I have talked to, it is just not possible somehow. I listened to it on the radio. I suppose that counts.
SM (01:01:42):
Actually, my sister was out there in (19)89. She worked at an insurance company, then she could see Candlestick Park when she was coming out, and she felt like she was having a dizzy spell and got down on the grass and all of her friends were going to the car.
DG (01:01:55):
Along with everybody else in the Bay Area.
SM (01:01:56):
Yeah.
DG (01:01:58):
Well I mean, the thing is that social events are far more powerful. There is things that we are not really conscious of, things that we do not really think about. People, if they are really good, will say things that reflect the time well. They will have a Henry David Thoreau or a William Shakespeare or an Ezra Hound who is capable of expressing the time, and if they are really good, they will express times that come after them. Shakespeare is holding up pretty darn well. But the whole business of, do any of those three statements mean anything to me in terms of the (19)60s? No. They are just talk. I prefer Robin Williams. Makes a lot more sense, besides it is funny.
SM (01:02:55):
Yeah. I would like you just to go in back to those days on that Berkeley campus. I am curious as I know that Mario Savio has passed away, but what has become as some of the other leaders of the movement? I know that Bettina is a professor at-
DG (01:03:15):
Well, most of them were academically oriented and continued in their academic direction. There were a few people who fell by the wayside. There were a few people like me, and a very few people like me, lives were dramatically, utterly, totally changed. Most people just afterwards got up and went right back to doing what they were doing. There were very few people, such as myself, who did not. I did not go back to school. I did not pursue my academic career. I became a printer and a graphic designer, and that would never have happened in one million years had I not been expelled. The vast majority of people who participated in free speech groups were academically oriented and continued to be academically oriented, went right on to do what they meant to do. Very, very few exceptions to that.
SM (01:04:15):
What is interesting is that Clark Kerr's name, he wrote a book that I had to read in graduate school, which is called the Uses of the university.
DG (01:04:23):
I have read it.
SM (01:04:25):
He talked all about the multi-versity, and students were challenging the corporate mentality. It has not changed at all today.
DG (01:04:32):
He wrote that before the free speech movement.
SM (01:04:36):
Yeah. I thought it was right on what he was saying, but the fifth-
DG (01:04:41):
Oh, he was treating university like a big factory. He basically said the product is knowledge and the students are what we turn out, and we have to run it like a factory. That is neither true or it is not. Does not make any difference. The university now is basically trying to run itself like a big, complicated, fancy, high-quality factory. That may or may not work. We will see. I do not know. University of California has very much formed by opinions of Clark Kerr. He had a very strong effect on administration. His career, and as did most of the bureaucrat's career by the free speech movement and the succeeding events, the anti-war movement, which they were powerless to prevent, and they were basically blamed for it. But the university is doing this fine thing and bigger than it ever was, and may become private. It may become corporate. It will keep on [inaudible] students talk.
SM (01:05:59):
Yeah. Ronald Regan obviously had a big role because-
DG (01:06:02):
Very, very big. Extremely big, and we basically him to be elected. Blame someone for that. You can blame the boomer generation for Ronald [inaudible] if you want to and be quite correct in doing so.
SM (01:06:15):
David, it has been an hour, and I know the last 20 minutes is basically responding to names of personalities in terms of period. You want to do that another time?
DG (01:06:28):
Let me take a quick look at my phone here and see how much power I have got left in it. Hang on.
SM (01:06:31):
Okay.
DG (01:06:31):
It says it is about 60 percent. Let us go through that pretty quickly.
SM (01:06:40):
Okay. I guess these can be just quick responses. They do not have to be any in depth, just gut level reactions when you hear these terms or personality. What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you?
DG (01:06:57):
Nothing. Whatever.
SM (01:06:58):
Okay. Maya Lin, a very fortunate artist, quite beautiful. I like it, but I was not involved in the Vietnam [inaudible] or conflict. What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
DG (01:07:11):
I know they were events in which people were killed and injured and that they had quite a catalyzing effect, but that is about it.
SM (01:07:20):
What does Watergate mean to you?
DG (01:07:23):
Corrupt politicians getting caught as usual.
SM (01:07:27):
Woodstock?
DG (01:07:30):
Was not there.
SM (01:07:34):
1968, the entire year.
DG (01:07:38):
The moon. Also, pretty exciting things going on in France as I remember.
SM (01:07:44):
Okay. Of course, that was the year of the-
DG (01:07:46):
The country.
SM (01:07:46):
That was the year of the assassinations too.
DG (01:07:50):
Yeah, but that is always going on.
SM (01:07:53):
Counterculture.
DG (01:07:56):
Nice words, not very meaningful.
SM (01:08:00):
How about hippies and yippies?
DG (01:08:03):
Two disgusting people. The truly, they are people, basically the extremely irresponsible end of the 1960s. The drugs are the drug crowds.
SM (01:08:21):
Communes.
DG (01:08:24):
Never had anything to do with them really. Social experiments that did not work too well.
SM (01:08:29):
Students for Democratic Society.
DG (01:08:33):
Bunch of thinks. I have no love for them at all.
SM (01:08:37):
Then the Weathermen, were there?
DG (01:08:40):
Crazy, loony, not safe.
SM (01:08:44):
How about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War who took over the anti-war movement when SDS was gone?
DG (01:08:51):
I do not know much about it.
SM (01:08:54):
Okay. Then Tet.
DG (01:08:54):
I am sorry, Tet?
SM (01:08:58):
Tet.
DG (01:08:58):
T-E-T?
SM (01:09:00):
Yes.
DG (01:09:01):
You mean the Tet Offensive?
SM (01:09:02):
Yes.
DG (01:09:03):
Well, was it very important to them in the Vietnam conquest.
SM (01:09:11):
How about, I am going to give some names now. Jane Fonda.
DG (01:09:15):
She was really good in Barbarella. I liked that costume a lot.
SM (01:09:23):
Yeah. Tom Hayden.
DG (01:09:27):
No opinion either way. Some sort of politician if I remember.
SM (01:09:31):
Annie Hoffman.
DG (01:09:34):
The nut case.
SM (01:09:35):
Jerry Rubin.
DG (01:09:37):
Loudmouth nut case.
SM (01:09:39):
Both of them? Okay. How about Timothy Leary?
DG (01:09:46):
Very interesting guy. I think he got a little unhinged from taking too much LSD, but he was sure, right. One of those people, you got to say, "Wow, that guy is really smart. Too bad he took so much LSD."
SM (01:10:01):
Dr. Benjamin Spock.
DG (01:10:04):
Loved Dr. Spock. I actually met him once. He basically empowered a whole generation to think for themselves as opposed to having doctors tell him what to think.
SM (01:10:17):
Phillip and Daniel Berrigan.
DG (01:10:20):
Lawyer, was not he?
SM (01:10:21):
They were the Catholic priests.
DG (01:10:24):
Oh, that is right. Had nothing to do with Vietnam conflict. Very courageous probably.
SM (01:10:30):
Okay. Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew.
DG (01:10:35):
Well, Nixon was a good president and a bad man. Spiro Agnew was a fool, a joke, a disaster, and got what was coming to him.
SM (01:10:47):
Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X.
DG (01:10:51):
Martin Luther King Jr. certainly tried hard and meant well. Very good orator. Malcolm X, he did not like white people very much. Pretty open about it. It does not seem to bother white people very much that he did not like them, so he seemed to get along perfectly fine.
SM (01:11:09):
Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern.
DG (01:11:14):
I am so glad they did not get elected.
SM (01:11:18):
All right. LBJ and Robert McNamara.
DG (01:11:22):
Well, LBJ was the most competent second in command, was unfortunately thrust in position first in command, at which he did not do a very good job. He really tried hard and he meant well. Robert McNamara, I do not have any opinion about it.
SM (01:11:40):
How about the Black Panthers, which includes Bobby Seal, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Angela Davis, that group.
DG (01:11:49):
Dangerous opportunists.
SM (01:11:52):
Okay. Daniel Ellsberg.
DG (01:11:56):
New York Times reporter. What was he?
SM (01:11:59):
He was the Pentagon Papers.
DG (01:12:01):
That is right. Courageous, I suppose.
SM (01:12:05):
How about Ronald Reagan and Hubert Humphrey?
DG (01:12:10):
Well, Hubert Horatio Humphrey was, Humphrey was kind of a silly guy. Ronald Reagan was very-very popular, very much loved, basically catapulted into power as a reaction against all the things that were going on in 1960s. I cannot comment on his presidential policies. I do know that under his administration, like many that had gone before him, which quite nearly obliterated human race but I do not think that is particularly his fault. I will [inaudible] judgment. Check back in 50 years. I will let you know.
SM (01:12:45):
George Wallace.
DG (01:12:48):
Governor of Mississippi?
SM (01:12:50):
Mm-hmm.
DG (01:12:56):
The man who tried to make history stop just because he did not like it.
SM (01:13:02):
Barry Goldwater.
DG (01:13:04):
Would have been an awfully good president. I would like to run history back again and try him. Be really different.
SM (01:13:13):
The Equal Rights Amendment that in the end failed.
DG (01:13:16):
The ERA?
SM (01:13:19):
Yes.
DG (01:13:19):
Well, it just shows up [inaudible] politician.
SM (01:13:26):
How about the Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, some of the, Shirley Chisholm, the female leaders of the Women's movement.
DG (01:13:35):
The female spokesperson.
SM (01:13:37):
Yes.
DG (01:13:38):
There is a big difference between the leader and spokes.
SM (01:13:41):
I think Betty Friedan was a leader.
DG (01:13:43):
Well, maybe. But I would say they basically articulated what a lot of people could not articulate themselves as well, and they spoke for a whole huge generation of women who had basically been getting a pretty raw deal, and for the most part still are.
SM (01:14:01):
What do you think of Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter?
DG (01:14:09):
Jimmy Carter was a great, or I should say is a great fool. I do not know. Gerald Ford, I would have no particular opinion about him.
SM (01:14:16):
Of course, you have already talked about Ronald Reagan. How about George Bush Sr. who said the Vietnam syndrome is over, and Ronald Reagan, of course, he said that we were back from where we were before the boomers.
DG (01:14:32):
You have to remember my opinion on politicians are not high.
SM (01:14:35):
Yeah. Right. The final two of individuals here are Bill Clinton and George Bush, the last president. When I have asked people do who they are really define who the boomers are, I get amazing responses. That they really are symbols of the boomer generation. I do not know what your thoughts are on Bill Clinton and George Bush, but.
DG (01:15:05):
Well, my opinion of politicians is not enhanced by George Bush. The Clinton Administration basically continued policies and created policies that have come home to roost now. Seemed like a really good idea to do all the things that went on during his administration, but now everything's totally fallen apart. I am not going to blame them for it. Politicians are necessary. They are necessary for society, and ours is our democracy has worked pretty darn well, thank you. I am not going to complain too much, I guess, but I do not like politicians and I do not like what they do. I think it is a waste of time and money, but I can think of a whole lot worse systems, so I am not really complaining. Our current president is trying hard and doing the best he can. It turns into a horrible mess the way it always does, but I like the democratic process. I do not think we get any worse leaders than anybody else.
SM (01:16:17):
How about John Dean?
DG (01:16:19):
Who?
SM (01:16:19):
John Dean.
DG (01:16:19):
[inaudible]
SM (01:16:23):
Pardon?
DG (01:16:24):
You are going to ask me about politicians, I am going to tell you I do not like them.
SM (01:16:26):
Oh, okay.
DG (01:16:28):
Leave the politicians off your list.
SM (01:16:30):
Very good, very good. When the best books are written, which is probably after we are gone, the best books are often written on any subject are 50 years after an event. What do you think the history books will say about the boomer generation once?
DG (01:16:47):
Having Written one, very long one myself, I can tell you what they think. They think it was swell. I had a great time myself. Have some other person who did not write a book or some other person [inaudible] different book.
SM (01:17:03):
Yeah, your book I thought was great. I read it a long time ago. And of course when we brought you to Westchester, it was great because you sat in front of student government, if you remember.
DG (01:17:11):
I do, and quite clearly.
SM (01:17:14):
That was a historic night. You do not realize. That was the very first night that Dr. Oliaro was there. He was the new vice president who had just come in from-
DG (01:17:23):
I remember meeting him.
SM (01:17:24):
Yeah-yeah. Now he is up at Fresno State.
DG (01:17:28):
Oh really?
SM (01:17:28):
Yeah, he is pretty big up there. He is the Vice President of Student Affairs at Fresno State. He was very impressed with you because he-
DG (01:17:37):
Really?
SM (01:17:37):
Yeah. Because he sat in the back. He did not expect it in a student government meeting, and of course I only had one other person ever came in there. But what was the overall reaction of your book and the students that you spoke to?
DG (01:17:54):
The book has not sold terribly well, but it is sold steadily. I suppose I should not complain. It is very long. One of the things about my book is that everyone else who writes a book has to refer to my book because my book has got everything in it. The manner in which I wrote is direct quotes from historical characters that were there at the time. You are pretty much going to have to accept that. There is very little about the facts that you could disagree with. My interpretation for the facts, of course are my own, but it is very hard to argue with an eyewitness account. You might not like what the person says, you might say the person had a myopic view because they were after all right in the middle of it, but you cannot say that it did not happen the way they said. At least the way they said is what they believed. You perhaps have read the book by Bernal Díaz called The Conquest of New Spain, where he has a foot soldier under Cortes. He writes the book about being a foot soldier under Cortes and taking over him Mesoamerica. You have to say, "Well, he was a soldier." I mean, his father was not even literate, but he was there. He was there with Cortes.
SM (01:19:17):
Right.
DG (01:19:17):
Fought, and cannot say, "Well, your interpretation of it is flawed and your attitude towards the Native Americans is certainly unpleasant. You were not a very nice man. You did hard things," but on the other hand, you have to say, "Well, you were there. You are telling me what you believe happened, I really got to pay attention to that." that is what my book did. You might like it, you might not, but you have to accept that I was there.
SM (01:19:51):
Yes. Yeah. I remember reading and I was underlining things. I ruined my books sometimes. I underlined them. I have actually bought another one so it is not underlined, but I have to underline so that I can actually go back to your book. And even though it has been over 10 years since I read it, I can read those lines and I can come back and remember some of the things around it, and that is who I underline. I have done that for years. What do you think the lasting legacy of that free speech movement will be?
DG (01:20:21):
Oh, I do not know.
SM (01:20:23):
Particularly in higher education, which I think really loves to forget their past.
DG (01:20:28):
Well, I think that it is permanently changed the city of Berkeley. I think it has had a tremendous change on the university's population. Basically, people go to Berkeley on purpose. They know it is going to be an exciting place, and they do not go here on purpose too. The people that do not want to go to the University of California are the ones that go to [inaudible] They are the ones that are afraid of the University of California. The ones that go here know that it is going to be a really interesting place with a lot of interesting things going on.
SM (01:21:10):
Good.
DG (01:21:10):
Now, it has been quite a while, [inaudible] so on and so forth. But I would say people come here on purpose. They do not come here by accident. They do not come here because it is safe. They come here because it is going to be exciting, so it is a different kind of school.
SM (01:21:31):
Now. That is the kind of school that I like. Well, I guess that is it, David. This has been great. Now the one thing I do not have is a picture of you and I am coming out in the-
DG (01:21:40):
Okay. Yeah. Hey, could you send me a transcript of it?
SM (01:21:44):
Yes. I am doing this to everybody. I have got so many transcripts to be done, but once the transcript is there, we can edit and so forth. But I am going to need to get a picture of you. I remember Chrissy Keeler, I think her name is. She is from San Francisco. I am interviewing her next week. I may be out in the spring with my camera to drive around, take pictures of people that I have interviewed so I may pop over to your place, but otherwise I will need a picture eventually. Not right now, of you.
DG (01:22:17):
I can mail you one.
SM (01:22:19):
But I think I will be out in San Francisco in April, I think, and I might just drive over and say hi to you and take your picture.
DG (01:22:25):
All right.
SM (01:22:26):
You have a great day. Keep doing that great artwork.
DG (01:22:29):
I am working on it.
SM (01:22:31):
Yep.
DG (01:22:31):
Right. Thanks. Have a great day. Bye.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with David Lance Goines
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Goines, David Lance, 1945- 2023 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Artists; Calligraphers; Typographers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Goines, David Lance, 1945--Interviews
Description
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David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for <em>A Constructed Roman Alphabet</em>.<br /><span><br />David Lance Goines died in Berkeley, California, on February 19, 2023, at the age of 77.</span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2009-11-19
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In copyright
Language
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eng
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.104
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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82:41
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fa4796ab7dea5563b7a2d9a36c2a60ea.pdf
f0002683d5c19f5ea06a5c6e04895e23
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMTON
U . N I V E R S I T Y
S TAT E U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K
D E P A R T M E N T
MASTER’S RECITAL
J U L I E M A RI E WILLIAMS,
SOPRANO
with
William, James Lawsory
Prano
and
ely Maynard,
AshMeggo
sopranc
S at urd ay, November 2 1, 2009
'
8 . 0 0p .mu
Casadesus Recital Hall
�TRANSLATIONS
Ch’io mi scordi di te
(l should forget you?)
I should forget you?
You can advise me to surrender to
him?
And you can wish that I continue to
live?
Ah no! My life would be worse than
death.
Let death come! I await it unafraid.
But that I might give my affection to
another,
How could I attempt that? I would
die of grief.
Do not fear, beloved, my heart will
be always yours.
I can no longer endure such pain,
My soul is fainting away.
You are sighing? O solemn grief!
Consider at least what a moment
this is!
O God, I cannot explain.
Barbarous, pitiless fate, why such
cruelty?
Kindly souls, who see my pain in
such a moment,
Say, can a faithful heart endure
such torments?
Abschiedslied der Zugvogel
(Farewell Song o f the Birds o f
Passage)
How beautiful were the woods and
fields,
How sad the world is now.
Gone is the beautiful summertime,
And after joy comes sorrow.
We didn’t know anything about
trouble.
We sat under the canopy of leaves,
Happy and gay in the sunshine, and
sang
Out into the world.
We poor little birds are so sad.
We have no homeland anymore.
We must now fly away from here
And fly to far off lands.
Gruss
(Greeting)
Wherever I go I look in the field,
and wood and valley.
From the hilltop on the meadow,
from the mountain outwards,
Far into the blue, I send you a
thousand greetings.
In my garden I find my flowers,
beautiful and delicate.
I make many wreaths out of them,
and bind them
With a thousand thoughts and
greetings therein.
But I dare not present them to you.
You are too good, too fair,
And they will fade too soon.
Love without equal stays forever in
the heart.
Herbstlied
(Autumn Song)
Oh how soon the dancing ends,
Changing spring into wintertime.
Ah, how soon into sad silence
changes all happiness.
Soon the last sounds silenced,
Soon the last singers are flown;
Soon is the last green gone!
AII want to hurry homeward.
Ah, how soon the dancing ends and
joy changes into longing sorrow.
Were you a dream, you thoughts of
love?
Sweet as spring and just as soon
past?
One thing only will never waver,
And that is Longing which never dies.
Maigléckchen und die
Bliimelein
(The Maybell and the Flowers)
Maybells are ringing in the valley,
They ring so bright and clear.
“So come one and all to the dance,
You lovely little flowers!”
The flowers, blue and yellow, and
white, all come over.
Forgetmenots and violets are
among them.
Maybells start up the dance again
and they all dance then.
The moon looks kindly upon them,
and enjoys the scene.
Jack Frost disapproved very much;
He came to the valley.
The Maybells danced no more;
Away went the flowers.
But the frost hardly left the valley,
When Maybells called them
Quickly again to the spring festival
and rang twice as brightly.
Now I, too, will stay no longer inside;
Maybells are also calling me.
The little flowers are going out to
the dance,
And I will go, too!
Chanson Triste
(Sorrowful Song)
In your heart moonlight sleeps,
Gentle summer moonlight,
And to escape from the stress of life
I will drown myself in your radiance.
I will forget past sorrows,
My love, when you cradle
My sad heart and my thoughts
In the loving peacefulness of your
arms.
You will take my aching head
Oh! Sometimes upon your knee,
And will relate a ballad
That seems to speak of ourselves.
And in your eyes full of sorrows,
In your eyes then I will drink
So deeply of kisses and of
tenderness
That, perhaps, I shall be healed...
Extase
(Ecstasy)
On a pale lily my heart sleeps
A sleep sweet as death...
Exquisite death, death perfumed
By the breath of the beloved...
On your pale breast my heart sleeps
A sleep sweet as death...
Chanson d’Avril
(Song o f A pril)
Arise! Arise! Spring is just born!
Yonder over the valleys rosy
gossamer floats!
Everything thrills in the garden,
everything sings, and your window
Like a joyous glance, is full of sun!
Beside the lilac with its purple
clusters,
Flies and butterflies hum together,
And the wild lilyofthevalley, ringing
its tiny bells,
Has awakened love asleep in the
woods!
Since April has sown its white daisies
Put off your heavy cloak and your
cozy muff,
Already the bird calls you, and your
sisters the periwinkles
Will smile in the grass on seeing your
blue eyes!
Come let us go! At morn the springs
are more limpid!
Let us not wait for the burning heat
of the day,
I would moisten my feet in the damp
dew,
And tell you of my love beneath the
flowering pear trees.
�Den forsta kyssen
(The First Kiss)
Flickan ko m ifran sin alsklings
the Evening Star.
The girl came from meeting her lover,
Came with her hands all red.
Said her mother:
On the edge of a silver cloud sat
From the twilight of the grove the
maiden asked her:
“Tell me, Evening Star, what do
they think in heaven
When the first kiss is given to a
lover?”
And heaven’s shy daughter was
heard to reply:
“The whole angelic host looks down
to earth
And sees its own bliss reflected.
Only Death turns away his eyes
and weeps.”
Till kvéllen
(In the Evening)
Hail to you, Evening,
With your retinue of stars!
The dark locks surrounding the night
of your dear,
Lofty brows are so dear to me.
O sublime Evening, if only you could
form the bridge
That could bear my heart’s yearning
Towards the land of dreams,
Could miraculously free me
From the shackles that oppress and
wear me here!
How deep is my happiness when you
console me,
When prostrated before you I find
repose,
When day closes and all turmoil is
silenced!
When the mist veils Earth’s hills
and valleys
And the night ascends with somber
wings,
Then will my spirit hasten to meet
you.
Creation
mote
(The Tryst)
“What has made your hands so red,
girl?”
Said the girl:
“I was picking roses
And pricked my hands on the thorns.’
0
!
i
I give birth to myself
My own mother and father
For years I ran like a clockwork
mouse
Mama says, Papa says,
Mama says, Papa says,
When does Goldilocks say I am
I am
Driven I didn‘t stop
Expected more from the umbilicus
Never once got off the hook line or
sinker
Again she came from meeting her
lover,
Came with her lips all red.
Said her mother:
“What has made your lips so red,
girl?”
Said the girl:
“I was eating raspberries
And stained my lips with the juice.”
Now before the world
I reach out.
Again she came from meeting her
lover,
Came with her cheeks all pale.
Said her mother:
“What has made your cheeks so
pale, girl?”
Said the girl:
“Oh mother, dig a grave for me,
Hide me there and set a cross above,
And on the cross write as I tell you:
Once she came home with her hands
all red,
They had turned red between her
lover’s hands.
Once she came home with her lips
all red,
They had turned red beneath her
lover’s lips.
The last time she came home with
her cheeks all pale,
They had turned pale at her lover’s
unfaithfulness.”
And slide me into the gutter
Without the niceties of smalltalk
roses or champagne.
I mean business, I want whiskey
I want to be swallowed whole,
I want tiles to spring off of walls
When we enter hotel rooms or
afternoon apartments
I won’t pussyfoot around
responsibility
“shoulds” and “oughts” are out for
good.
And I don’t want to be a fat domestic
cat
I want to be frantic,
Yowls and growls to sound like the
lion house at feeding time
I don’t give a damn who hears,
I don’t give a damn!
No discreet eavesdroppers coughs
can stop us in our frenzy.
Let the voyeurs voient
And let the great cats come.
Animal Passion
Fierce as a bobcat’s spring
With startup speeds of sixty miles
per hour
I want a lover to sweep me off my
feet
i
v
N
Alas! Alack!
Alas!
Alack!
I have a knack for falling for the
wrong man
Cavaradossi or Don Ottavio were
just too tame
I never seem to want to stick to my
own script
It’s the chainsmoking bad guy in
leather
The one who’ll ruffle my feathers
the most who gets me
I fear it’s a lack—Alas!
As Tosca I lost it over Scarpia
Not such a bad fella
He had the power and the steady job
The better tune
So when they asked me to pick up
the knife and dispatch him I
demurred
Perhaps it was his theme song I
preferred
I know there’s a lack—Alas!
If I were Oberon,
I’d choose Puck,
For Pamina, it’s Papagena
If I’m Brannhilde it’s bound to be
Wotan on whom I’m stuck
If Isolde were smitten by King Marke
or Melot
Would it make her a zealot?
Damn!
I know there’s a lack—Alas!
�ABOUT THE PERFORMERS
Indian S u m m e r B lue
When I was sixteen I had a red hot
Chevy
Bucket seats, white top,
The steering not too heavy
I loved that car
Like a child loves a pony
Shoe blacked its tires
My freedom to ride
Now I am Bluebeard’s wife
I’d rather be Sleeping Beauty
“Honey, don’t open that door,” he
says
Though he gave me a master key
And I’ve peeked through the keyhole
Always a guard on duty
A red light and odor of rusty gardenia
slips out from under the door
No bushes grow in the garden
A saint‘s blood smells of roses
Blue
Blue was married before a t least
three times
No fam’ly portraits, and I don’t ask
It’s so hot
I get tired here in the east
I could doze away the days
Blue thinks I’m too fat,
Too this too that
Mama says Curiosity killed...
The Cat may well undo me.
JULIE MARIE WIL LIAMS a native of South Jersey, began piano
lessons at the age of five, and voice lessons when she was ten. She
Joy Alone (Connectio n)
The stunning silence of myself
From the hearts of forests
Middle of mountains
A late low sun rests her friendly hand
On the crowns of uncompromised
trees
A fox streaks across the sand and
scented sagebrush
A chatter of chipmunks scatters
Squirrels who stuff their briefcases
for the winter
Bluecollar workers
Long term plans
The resiny crunch of orange pine
needles warm under foot
A windfall of sweet cones
Joy alone
A startle of saplings
The power of trees
Unrav’ling of rivers
Joy alone
Joy
graduated with honors from The University of the Arts in Philadelphia,
PA, with a Bachelor of Music in Voice Performance in 2006.
Last January, Julie served as soprano soloist for Haydn’s
Theresienmess and was a member of the TriCities Opera Chorus in the
20082009 season, appearing in Rigoletto, Amahl and the Night Visitors,
The 60” Anniversary Gala, and Faust. In the fall of 2006 and spring of
2007, she gave recitals for Arts at Grace Church in Haddonfield, NJ,
participated in the Opera Studio of the American Institute of Musical
Studies in Graz, Austria in the summer of 2005, and has taught private
voice and piano lessons since 2002. Julie is currently pursuing a Master
of Music in Vocal Performance at Binghamton University and is a student
of Professor Mary Burgess.
W I L L I A M J A M E S L A W S O N coaches and accompanies singers at
Binghamton University. As a coach, he specializes in English diction for
American and English art songs and the sacred and classical theater
repertoires. He studied at Binghamton University (B.A. 1980), where his
teachers included Seymour Fink and Patricia Hanson in piano, M. Searle
Wright in church music, and Stevenson Barrett in vocal coaching. He
holds an M.A. from New York University (1984) and was one of the first
graduates of New York University’s innovative Department of
Performance Studies, an interdisciplinary program in the performing arts.
ASHLEY MAYNAR D, a native of Connecticut, is pursuing a Master
of Music in Opera degree at Binghamton University and is a Resident
Artist with TriCities Opera. She is a student of Professor Mary Burgess,
and also works with Duane Skrabalak, Peter Sicilian, and Diane
Richardson.
Ms. Maynard holds a Bachelor of Music degree in Music Education
and Vocal Performance from Nyack College. She has performed with
Nyack College Opera, singing the roles of Giovanna (Rigoletto),
Mercedes (Carmen), Carmen (Carmen), and Mary Magdalene in the
sacred opera I Am the Way by Jerome Hines. She has also sung the
Cousin (Madama Butterfly) and First Alms Nun (Suor Angelica) with
Opera Theater of Connecticut. With TriCities Opera, Ms. Maynard has
performed the roles of Giovanna (Rigoletto), Marcellina (The Marriage of
Figaro), the Mother (Amahl and the Night Visitors), Miss Todd (Old Maid
and the Thief), and Siebel (Faust). In the spring of 2009, she was alto
soloist in Haydn’s Theresienmesse with the Binghamton University
Chamber Chorus and Orchestra.
After graduation, Ms. Maynard plans to continue to sing with TriCities
Opera, and in December will be performing the roles of the Mother and
Hansel in Hansel and Gretel.
�Binghamton University Music D epartment’s
U P C O M I N G E V E N T S
a o a e de
a
o
a
Thursday, December 3 – Jazz MidDay Concert with Tony
Kadleck, trumpet – 1:20 p.m. – Osterhout Concert Theater –
free (Cosponsored by the Binghamton University Music
Department and the Harpur Jazz Project)
Thursday, December 3 – Harpur Jazz Ensemble Concert
w i t h Tony Kadleck, trumpet – 8 p.m. – Osterhout Concert
Theater – $$ (Cosponsored by the Binghamton University Music
Department and the Harpur Jazz Project)
Friday, December 4 – Flute Studio and Flute Chamber
Concert – 10:15 a.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free
Friday, December 4 & Saturday, December 5– Elizabethan
Madrigal Feaste (Harpur Chorale and Women’s Chorus) –
6:30 p.m. – Old Union Hall – $$
Friday, December 4 – Master’s Recital: Susan Amisano,
soprano – 8 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free
Sunday, December 6 – Wind Symphony – 3 p.m. – Anderson
Center Chamber Hall – free
Tuesday, December 8 – Percussion Ensemble – 8 p.m. –
Anderson Center Chamber Hall – free
Thursday, December 1 0 – Holiday MidDay Concert – 1:20
p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free
Friday, December 1 1 – Holiday MidDay Concert – 4 p.m. –
Downtown Center – free
Saturday, December 1 2 – Faculty Fireworks: Winter Winds
( w i t h t he U niversity Symphony Orchestra) A gala benefit
concert f o r t h e M usic Department – 8 p.m. – Osterhout
Concert Theater – $15 general public; $10 faculty/staff/seniors;
$5 students
For ticket information, please call the
Anderson Center Box O ffice at 777ARTS.
�
Dublin Core
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Coverage
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1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
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In copyright.
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Original Format
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1 sound disc
Duration
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58:30
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153419">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153419</a>
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Single
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Title
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Master's recital, Julie Marie Williams, soprano, November 21, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-11-21
Description
An account of the resource
Held at 8:00 p.m., November 21, 2009, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Creator
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Williams, Julie Marie
Lawson, William James
Maynard, Ashley
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2009-11-21
Rights
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In copyright
Type
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sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a73477c7381dda5dfbb74d27b5374aa2.jpg
5b519108f549cf81b1bcf629e2327546
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4f23f9ef29681b252439fb2059692ef0.mp3
3389dbc1b78fd7e2a2db0fd57b21b7b3
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2009-11-22
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Alan Canfora ; Roseann Chic Canfora
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Alan Canfora is a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora is an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a bachelor's degree in General Studies and master's degree in Library Science. Currently, he is the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":8403713,"3":[null,0],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,4995385],"15":"Arial","16":10,"26":400}">Dr. Roseann "Chic" Canfora is an educator. She received her Master's degree in Journalism and Public Relations at Kent State University, where she also earned a Ph.D. in Educational Administration. Currently, she is a Chief Communications Officer at Cleveland Metropolitan School District. Dr. Canfora is the sister of Alan Canfora and an eyewitness to the Kent State massacre on May 4, 1970. <br /><br />Alan Canfora (1949-2020) was a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora was an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a Bachelor's degree in General Studies and a Master's degree in Library Science. He was the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio.<br /></span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Kent State; 1960s; Baby Boomers; SDS; Political activism; Protests; College students; Counterculture; Democratic Party; Republican Party; Watergate; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Lyndon Johnson"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4993,"3":{"1":0},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Vietnam War; Feminism; Civil rights movement; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy; Cuban missile crisis; Kent State; Black Panthers; Pacifism; Timothy Leary; Drug culture; Exclusion of women; Joan Baez; Cesar Chavez; March on Washington; Harvey Milk; Vietnam Veterans Memorial; Baby boom generation ; Students for a Democratic Society; Political activism; Protests; College students; Counterculture; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Lyndon Johnson<br /></span>
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201:57
Subject LCSH
Educators; Kent State Shootings, Kent, Ohio, 1970; Canfora, Roseann Chic--Interviews; Political activists--United States; Library directors; University of Akron. School of Law. Library; Canfora, Alan
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Alan Canfora and Roseann Chic Canfora
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So
Date of interview: 22 November 2009
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(Start of Interview)
00:02
SM: Is- It is basically a question I am only asking the people that were activists during the (19)60s. And that is: what made you become an activist? Was there something in your life in your growing up years, whether it be in high school or even before what happened on May 4, 1970? What was it within you in your background that made you become an activist in your life?
00:33
RC: Well, I grew up in a house with a father, who was always politically involved as a city councilman. But also, as a labor activist, I lived in a, in Barberton, Ohio, which was at the time a factory town. And so, every little league team has URW or UAEW, you know, the United Rubber Workers or Auto Workers Union, were the sponsors of just about all the teams and most of my friend's fathers work in factories [agreement]. From my earliest recollections, as a child were always hearing my father on the phone, talking about, you know, basically the fights that they were engaging on, on the labor front through the UAW and being a union leader that was a very natural thing in my household that we respected unions, we avoided, we did not cross picket lines, we understood the value of people fighting for their rights and standing up for what they believed in [agreement]. I have to say that-that had a long-term influence on my own political value of people fighting for their rights and standing for what they believe in. I did not come to Kent State as a political activist, however, I was a very strait-laced, honors students in high school, a cheerleader, very socially involved and very politically unaware, because I do not remember my teachers talking about things like the Vietnam War, even though many of my friends were in the same war, had brothers that were coming home injured or, or in body bags. And I think I might have remained relatively uninvolved, politically at Kent State were it not for the draft, which personally affected me, because so many of my friends and my brothers in particular, were eligible for the draft and were dreading going, and it was that alone, that made me begin to question what is this war? And where will they go? And why do they have to fight? And what can I do to stop them from going?
03:29
SM: We get, before I get into my other set of questions here, when you think going back to that period now when you heard, when you experienced the tragedies on May 4, and that whole weekend, 1970. When you saw the news media afterwards, constantly say that of all places, it happened to Kent State, you remember this in the media? You know, there was a lot more activist campus like Ohio State or particularly Ohio University that had been through some major protests. And then they said, believe it or not, it happened to Kent State. How do you, how did you react to that just what the media was doing, and portraying the, your university and the students there?
04:11
RC: Well, I never bought that because I was there in 1968, a college freshman, and from my very first day on campus, SDS had a very visible and viable presence on that campus. I could remember being handed an anti-war leaflet my first week of school, even though I was inclined to throw it away, and not pay attention. You know, I was still of the mindset that, you know, like the Tennyson, “Theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die.” I grew up in a very military family. My mother was an Army nurse. My father had served in World War II. They met in a hospital in Battle Creek, Michigan, where my father who was recuperating from an injury and I remember you know, as a child always going through their scrapbook and always envisioning my brother's someday going off and joining the army too. In fact, I even looked forwards to joining the ROTC, as you know, kind of been following in my mother's footsteps at one point. But even though I was largely expectant of, of young men going off to service, I was aware that there was growing opposition on the campus at Kent. And it was a very constant level of political activity with SDS. I marveled at that I was very impressed with that even though I did not pay much attention to what they were saying, I was paying attention to their determination. And it always, it always fascinated me that whether it was raining or freezing cold outside, or whether it was fall, winter, or spring, they were there. They were in the Student Center, and they were always working, they were always organizing, they were always engaging with theater, they were always passing out leaflets, always walking with bullhorns and marching on that campus. And I watched it grow. And with that growing, not with those growing numbers, my growing interest in them. So no, I was, I was never of the mindset that Kent was not what the people placed it was sort of a surprise that a major anti-war protest happened there, whoever said that was clueless about what was going on there and never paid attention.
06:41
SM: Yeah, that was a lot of what the media was doing right around that time. One of the questions I wanted to ask, too, is, you know, about the generation gap between parents and students and between parents and boomers. And most of the World War II generation, obviously, you had some very quality parents who were inspirational role models to you, was there any kind of a generation gap between you and Alan and the rest of your, your family and your parents? And secondly, when you used to eat at the dinner table in high school did you ever had, did they listened to you to where their conversations at the table were not only, they were giving information to you about the experiences, but they respected your point of view too.
07:26
RC: So, we always talk politics, but disagreements in our family were very, very common things I can still remember Alan, supporting Robert Kennedy and my dad supporting Hubert Humphrey and, and you know, them debating about which one was the better candidate. And, you know, I do remember when Alan was beginning to question the war and be critical of the war. My mom and dad disagreed with them. But I also remember when I watched Johnson, on television announcing the invasion of Southeast Asia. And I remember looking at my mother's face, and I saw a worry on her face, I did not see what a very pro-military woman to look, the look I thought would be different. But I saw the worry on her face, I knew that going into Southeast Asia was probably not right, and even though my dad disagreed with a lot of the tactics that were being used I think by activists, it was-was more so because he was worried, we would get in trouble, we would go to jail, to see if we participated and get hurt. He never really stifled our opinions or told us we were full of it, he always listened, my parents always listened and even debated with us over the dinner table. We were Italian family, so we argued a lot. And we never made it feel we could not vent our opinion
09:01
SM: Did any of your brothers go off to war?
09:04
RC: No.
09:06
SM: Okay, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, of course, why I had an interview yesterday with Rennie Davis. He was the guy I ended up interviewing in Washington because he was there for speaking event. And he looked at the (19)60s as from 1960 to 1973, which I kind of believe as well, when but when you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
09:33
RC: So, when I think of the (19)60s and (19)70s I, the first thing comes to my mind is the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement that those, those are the two I think most polarizing and inspiring episode of the (19)60s and the (19)70s.
09:55
SM: Obviously, I think I know your answer to this, is, is there one specific event that shaped your life when you were young? I would assume it was what happened on May 4?
10:05
RC: Well, certainly that stands up there at number one, also affected deeply by the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and particularly by the assassinations of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Bobby Kennedy. I mean, I was just graduated from high school when, when Bobby Kennedy gave us so much hope for ending the war, and so much focus on bringing a real president to the White House. And, you know, seeing those dreams dashed and seeing those heroes extinguished, so, you know, suddenly and tragically was devastating to me. And, and it was very confusing. I never knew how to put that into perspective until I was much older.
10:55
SM: Where were you when you heard John Kennedy died? You remember the moment?
11:00
RC: Yes, I was in a social studies class at Highland junior high school. I was 13 in the seventh grade. And I remember the public address system came on, there was no announcement by the principal, they just literally turned on the public address system and allowed the radio report to come through. I remember watching my social studies teacher grab his stomach, almost as if he has been shot himself in a gut reaction. And then I remember everyone kind of pouring into the hallways, and teachers were crying and crying. And that just began that horribly, long week there, I will never, ever forget the drumbeat of that funeral processional and all the stores closing and all of the grief on the faces of so many people. I grew up in a very democratic town. And so, it was an entire town in absolute grief.
12:03
SM: It is like watching television from Friday through Monday, without ever turning the TV off.
12:09
RC: Right, And I remember we were at church. And walk in the door, just as my father was reacting to the assassination or the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. And it was just like, wow, to be that young, and see so much tragedy back, back-to-back has to have played a significant role in my own political activism later. I was stunned by all that tragedy and outrage, you know, in ways that I was too young to be able to express then. But I am sure it manifested itself in my activism later.
12:49
SM: Right then getting into 1968, which had seemed to be one event after another that traumatized people. And certainly, you would have been five years older in 1968. So, you, what as a young person, what were your feelings? You, after King died, and then finding out that Bobby Kennedy died two months later. I mean, what did you think about America?
13:16
RC: Well, I remember feeling so hopeless, because being in a family where so, so much was put on election with, you know, I mean, as little kids, as very, very young kids, I could still remember my, my brother Alan and my brother Sonny and I, running from precinct to precinct with a little notepad and a pencil. So, we can write down to the vote tallies, as they were posted outside the door. And that was the way they used to do it for my father's election. It was always a very exciting thing for us to run from precinct to precinct on election night, and then run back into the house to tell my father he won his election. So, we always valued democracy and always actively participated in democracy, and then to see people rising to positions of power, rightfully so, to be gunned down. People do not even have the opportunity to elect them was probably the most closest feeling I had as a child that, you know, anybody who tries to do it the right way that tries to go through the system to effect change, that there is no hope for them to do that meaningfully. I became very disillusioned with my, with America, the American that I was coming to know.
14:40
SM: The, one of the- Newt Gingrich when he came to power in 1994, and the writer George Will in US News and World Report always have, always, whenever they get a chance, they like to downplay and actually criticize the boomer generation as a whole for all the reasons why we have problems in America today. They will generalize the breakup of the American family, the tensions between black and white, those who support the troops, those who are against the troops. The whole issue of, you know, lack of respect for authority, when you, they basically condemned the generation, what are your thoughts when you hear the Newt Gingrich’s and the George Wills of the world, make those kinds of comments.
15:28
RC: So, they are ignorant, they are absolutely ignorant, because when I looked back at the generation that I was a part of, I mean, certainly a difficult time in which to live, but it was a time that I would not for the world have missed living. It was a generation of youth that was not afraid to disagree with their parents. And so while some may call that rebelliousness, I really see it as an age of enlightenment. There was an overall rejection of the value of the generation before us, a generation that, like, you know, that worships, worships war, you know, was, was, you know, and instead of, I mean, then they polluted our air with, you know, their industries, and their-their focus on capitalism and focus on, you know, just getting ahead and, you know, being, you know, that whole dog-eat-dog world that they lived in, it was inspiring for me to be part of a new generation, that value peace over war that values the earth over the capitalism and pollution and, and, and we were a generation that fell in love with music, and fell in love with the earth and fell in love with peace. And, you know, the Woodstock generation was, to me, probably the greatest thing I have ever been part of, because it was that rejection of the value for us, and this collective statement that we are different. We are different, we lived differently. And you know, some, some rejected the whole era of free love and off of that, well, you know, that whole puritanical kind of stuff-shirted attitude of our, of our parents was rejected. So, I think people like Newt Gingrich are yucky, and Jerry Rubin who, you know, whose slogan, “kill your parents” made us seem violent and rebellious. When really it was a value system that said, we are different. And we reject the values of our parents, we are not afraid to form a new society, with values that put people first rather than profit, that put peace first, rather than war, something above something vaccines? I do not know. I am proud to have been part of that.
18:18
SM: What, what do you think, if you were to put down some characteristics and qualities that you feel the strengths and weaknesses of the boomers were, and again, we are talking about, some people have a hard time talking about 75 million people when maybe only 15 percent were activists. But, but, but I have also talked to people that if you were in the non-activist group, the subconscious, obviously is part of who you are as a human being. So really does in a way affect the entire boomer generation. What do you consider some of the strengths and weaknesses of the boomers and boomers are those born between (19)46 and (19)64?
19:00
RC: To me, we were really very much a product of our upbringing, because when I remember mostly the division on the Kent State campus, that kind of I saw, my first glimpse of it was at the music and speech building. When the Kent Four were about to be expelled. It is my first political action. And I was just, I was outraged that the four leaders that I had seen for two years walking with bull horns and leading so many people against the war on campus, were about to be expelled and I thought that was wrong. And so when I followed them to the music and speech building, the, the protest, people were protesting the expulsion, waiting at the music and speech building was another set of boomers, a different set of boomers but fraternity guys who then were pissed started, you know, fighting with the SDS followers, and that to me, was a very visual reminder of the polarization in this country, that pitted not just the Woodstock generation against parents. But pit for war against anti-war boomers. You know, pro-materialism, pro-materialist against anti-materialist. And, and I really do think it had a lot to do with who we were when we were growing up during those years, if we were kids who really were affected by the assassination that we talked about a moment ago. Because I mean, when I was at Highland junior high school, and I was sobbing at the death of President Kennedy, I still remember a girl who was on my cheerleading squad saying, “Thank God,” because she hated Kennedy. So, you know, we were, we were divided against each other as we were divided against those that have come before us. And I think it has a lot to do with those in our generation that bought into the materialistic values of our parents. And they were usually the ones that were a little more well off. And I think that the working-class kids were far more influenced by the labor movement, and the civil, and the civil rights movement, and the anti-war movement, combined. So, to me, that is our strength and our weakness. Our strength is being reared in, in the, you know, the working class town, that was the strength for us, being reared by, by parents who served this country and expected to get something in return versus those in our generation who never knew the value of labor in making, you know, improving the quality of life for everyone with health benefits and vacation benefits and safer factories and safer food products and all the things to me that are the strength of that whole era of the (19)60s and (19)70s. Labor is at the heart of that. And I think labor, and the value of that is what really divided our own generation.
22:13
SM: There have been a lot of setbacks in labor because of Ronald Reagan, it all started with Ronald Reagan and remember the airline strike, I remember the airline situation. And from that day forward, labor unions have gone down in terms of the number of people participating in them. And leads, leads me into my next question, which is, what has been the overall impact of the boomer generation on America as a whole? Now we are talking 70 million, we have had two presidents, totally different presidents in Bill Clinton and George Bush, who are boomers. And actually, President Obama is a very late boomer. I mean with him being very young. But what has been the overall impact on America forget what George Will and Newt Gingrich say, but you are just your thoughts as a proud, a proud boomer.
23:01
RC: Well, actually, I, I think that it would, I am not really sure I know what you are asking me. When you say Newt Gingrich, he is blaming us for the current problems of today?
23:14
SM: Well, he, he goes back to the era of that generation, he did this in 1994. And occasionally he has opportunities to say it. George Will writes it all the time, that the drug culture, they look at the negatives, they look at all the negative things and, and they-they say, that is the influence we have on our society. They have very permissive society, no one talks to each other people do not listen, people are getting divorced. There is still the tensions between black and white, and in all the “-isms.” They go back to that era. So basically, what my question is just, forgetting what they said, what you believe, has been the impact of this boomer generation on America and the world?
24:01
RC: Well, I think that that image, the positive image, throughout the world, of what America represents, is embodied in the boomer generation. Because if there was ever a generation in the history of this country, since the revolution, that truly exemplified and put through their greatest test those constitutional guarantees of freedom, and the right to petition the government for redress of grievances, it was the boomer generation. There was no other time since the revolution that anyone can point to where the people put those rights to the test. And not only were gun down for it but got back up and continued to point out the wrongs of this government. And I think that in the same way that the corrupt Gingrich’s and others in Congress who see that, I mean, they saw what we were capable of doing with free, with a free press in the (19)60s with the Walter Cronkite types of reporters, but as long as people know the truth, they can act on this truth. And they can effect meaningful change with the truth. Everything that we have seen in those volatile years of the (19)60s and (19)70s, we have seen a reaction to that. That was why we could not see flag faced coffins anymore. That is why we no longer have a media that is not controlled by profit, and governments. Because when the people are as aware as the boomers were, and act on that awareness, then then government is not safe. So, I think that is the greatest contribution of our generation is we put those-those rights to their greatest test. And we are still here advocating for a return to the freedoms that that we enjoyed then that are, you know, frozen and eroded, time and time again today, by a government afraid of that kind of people power returning,
26:17
SM: Obviously, you are living those feelings and expressing them even I am seeing you at some of the events at Kent State. And democracy is very important to you. But when you look at as boomers have aged, and now the early boomers or the late, they are now on social security for the first time this year for the, for the, for the boomer generation, how many of them really have lived up to what they did when they were young? It can you, can you put, can you put you have seen over the years, even some of your friends who were activists, like you were back in the (19)70s, early (19)70s. And have seen what that, how they lived their lives. I guess, what I am really asking is, have they lived up to their, their beliefs of that particular era? Or did they fall into the same trap of many previous generations of, you know, just going back and making money raising families not really caring about your fellow human beings because they got to put bread on the table, or-
27:22
RC: I think there is a lot of people, and I am included, in part because I remember, my parents never had, we never had money, we never, my mother was a stay-at-home mom, my dad worked in a factory, money was always an issue when I grew up. And I remember my dad telling me that he could not afford to send me to college, because he had three boys to put through school, and I was just going to get married and have kids anyway, and so on and so forth. So, I know that as a parent, today, I gave my kids far more than I otherwise might have. I expected them to work less than my parents expected me to work because I never wanted them to work and to go through what I went through. I mean, I it took me eight years to do my undergraduate work, because I always had to work to pay for it myself. And I had to work, sometimes go to school, sometimes, work while going to school, sometimes drop out and work for a year and then go back. And so, I find myself as a parent, saying to my kids, as long as you are in school, I will pay for it. You know, I want you to get through in four years. And I think that there is a lot of boomers like me who overindulge their children to begin with. And then some of them got, I think, trapped in that whole materialistic, you know, giving, give our kids what we did not have. And therefore, the material possessions became as important as they were to our parents, you know, so what they rejected in the (19)60s, they embrace in the (19)80s. And so, I remember being part of that myself, until I really got a good look at you know an America that does not, you know, it does not have its priorities straight. You know, it is more and more people are going homeless and hungry, as more and more people are losing their jobs. I cannot imagine where all the boomers are now fighting for healthcare now. They were, they have just, they have not only lost their way they have lost their mind. How can they not see that the issues we face today are even more critical than before, you know, to have a record, you know, to have, you know, such a huge number of people in my generation, support George Bush for eight years. It is mind boggling. People who said that they marched in the (19)60s, but now you know, they you know, this is the, this is the new way that they support America. I do not I do not know that any one part would do so, I would not, and I would like to believe I know when America has gone wrong, and I am willing to still stand up to it against the powers that be if they are taking us in the wrong direction. I do not know where the half a million strong Woodstock generation is. They rejected those values back then they moved on and adapted their values and their hearts are not there-
30:19
SM: There were so many activists in the late (19)60s and (19)70s. And I, I have often wondered whatever happened to their parenting in respect to raising activist mentalities and, and their sons and daughters. Now, and of course, when we talk sons and daughters now, we are talking about two generations here because the generation that followed the boomers are the Generation Xers that seem to always have problems with boomers, and now Millennials are the current college group. There is some activism lots of volunteerism. But do you see where, you see much activism on college campuses now yourself?
30:58
RC: Well, yes, there is pockets of activism. But so much of campus activism has to do with, with causes, you know, I suppose, if there were a draft, and most of the kids that age were being sent off to war as it was for us you would see far more activism than you see now. But I also see a decrease in activism by design. If college education was affordable to me, my parents could not pay for my college. But I could work all summer long and pay for my tuition for an entire year. My tuition at Kent was $197 a quarter in 1968, it cost $400 a year to live full time in a dorm with a meal ticket for three meals a day. Today’s college student does not have that affordable, affordability. And I think that is by government design. So that never again we will witness what we witnessed in the (19)60s, today's college students are burdened with debt, they are burdened not only with tuition debt, they are burdened with credit card debt all by design. Because if you can keep them working jobs while they are in school, if you can keep them so fretted over the, you know, the, without the fear of being expelled or the fear of having, of not being able to graduate, so on and so forth. Then they are going to be less inclined to take up causes, causes beyond themselves. And I think that, that- that was- that was what has happened. That they knew that the Woodstock generation’s children were coming to college. And they did not want a repeat of what they had in the (19)60s. So, they made college unaffordable, they made both parents have to work they made college students have to work. I truly I mean, I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist. But I think unaffordable colleges, this was by design.
33:04
SM: Well, you, you said something very important. I have always mentioned I may have mentioned to you the title of my book is “Magic Moments.” And-and that was because in each interview, there has been a magic moment, you just created a magic moment. Because I did not expect that. But it is very well put, because I felt for a long time. And this is not my interview, it is yours. But that activism is a term that scares college administrations to death. And it is like they do not want a repeat of what happened back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And because of the fact that they know that this generation of students or parents are very close to their kids, and anything that upsets the apple cart, they will take their kid out of college, and it is all about the bottom line. So, you raise some really good points there.
33:55
RC: Look at some of the laws that are being passed. I was a teacher for 31 years in high school classrooms. High school teachers today are well I mean, and my, my son, my son, Ian is going to be a math professor, and now well, they have laws on the books right now where you can have a teacher removed from the classroom, but something as simple and vague as conduct unbecoming of a teacher. We have to worry that any teacher who speaks his mind, or you know, a few years back, I stood in front of the White House with a sign saying, “Impeach Bush”. And on the other side it said, “The Bush-Cheney Occupation, who will reconstruct America?” This is right after we went into Iraq. I was out there for six hours. And I remember these policemen coming over to me, they knew I was a teacher. And they said, “How long are you here for? Aren’t you teaching a summer school,” I mean, like they had they knew who I was, and where I taught? And that was, that was chilling.
34:54
SM: Wow.
34:56
RC: And I remember as our union kind of briefed us, our Teachers Union briefed us two years ago on how all the laws were changing. So that we had to be more careful about our political affiliations and our political activism. Because if a school board saw us as looking rebellious for participating in conduct unbecoming a teacher, then you know, we could lose our jobs even, even if we had tenure. That is a small example of what I think is occurring on a larger scale. Our government learned a great deal from us in the (19)60s, they learned a great deal of about what can happen when people mobilized and when, when, when the opposition grows, and so on and so forth. And how does it grow? You know, Walter Cronkite showed us live feed pictures of the Mai Lai Massacre. You know, we saw more and more coffins coming home. That is why we do not have access to that kind of information anymore, that that makes Americans turn, you know, that is why we have the radio waves and the television stations flooded with government propaganda, because they would have to counter any anything that might have done what happened in the (19)60s, encouraged people to, to know the truth about what was happening in Iraq. I mean, we had so few people questioning the weapons of mass destruction. And the New York Times had to take out a full-page ad and apologize to its readers around the world, that they did not do their jobs, the apologies of the Judith Miller's and all the people who were taking their talking points and Karl Rove, it is a whole different ballgame now, and it is all because they learned what can happen when there is a press. They learned what can happen, when there are not-not enough laws on the books to stop us from, from protesting. And then when they shot us down in 1970, they did so with impunity, no one has paid a price for that. They were emboldened in; they have been emboldened by their ability to shoot down college students during the protests and get away with it. Do not think for one minute that did not have a chilling effect on a lot of boomers, who did not see that we got anything accomplished, beyond getting shot down, when we stood up.
37:25
SM: Very well put, well, I am actually, I am one of those because Kent State affected me my entire life and I and I was not there. The, how important, and, were the college students in ending the Vietnam War in the end, and-and how important were the boomer generation and all the other movements, because when you think of the antiwar movement, the civil rights movement, we also had to think of obviously, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, the environmental movement, and all the all the movements that all kind of looked at the civil rights movement, as an example, on how to do a movement, how important were boomers and those movements.
38:10
RC: Well, They, they all emanated from our generation, and in the (19)60s and (19)70s, were all of the above, all the things that you mentioned, were, you know, pretty much defining who we were, as a generation of youth. And, you know, you have to, you have to take a look at what the (19)60s really were, you know, after World War II mothers were sent home, because they had, they were all in the factory supporting the war effort. But they were sent, they were sent home to just support their husbands and have, have babies and whatever and it was, so idyllic, you know, the music of the time, sort of, you know, represented that complacency, that feeling that the only thing that matters was getting a color TV, having a nice car, having a home which you own, and those became the values and all of the things that you mentioned, the values that involve not material possessions, but involve human rights. Were those that became the causal laws of the (19)60s and (19)70s. Because it became apparent that while America while the American middle class was, was growing, and while opportunities, seem to be abounding for a majority of Americans. There was still this painful minority that was being shunned, that was being discriminated against, who did not have those opportunities, who were not given those jobs, who were not getting elected to positions whose voices were not heard. And thank God that among us, in that middle class, who is still enough people to say this is not right. This is a government of the people, by the people for all of the people you know. This is you know; we have first amendment rights that all voices will be heard, yes, the majority will rule but the minority is heard. And so, if, if their voices were not being heard, we had, thank goodness, a sufficient enough number among the boomers that took up their voices for them. And, you know, we had a very, you know, lots of, we had a good number of white people that were killed, along with black people fighting for civil rights in the south, and the sufficient number of men that fought for women's rights and a sufficient enough number of whites that continue to fight alongside their Latino brothers and sisters, and their Native American brothers and sisters, and their black brothers and sisters to achieve the equality that is the true promise of America. That, to me, is not the entire boomer generation, but it was a very significant part of the boomer generation and I always called it the Woodstock generation is part and parcel of the boomer generation. But it was the enlightened segment of the boomer generation, and I think there is still a significant number of those who raise their children, right. And their children were out there pounding the pavement for Barack Obama, or Hillary Clinton, strong people who represent that famous line that is about the true values of what it means to be an American.
41:38
SM: I am going to turn my tape here, hold on a second. Because I always looked at, I got the tape back on now, I always look at the boomers as a very passionate group to begin with. So, in life, if you do not have passion for what you believe in, that is- that is that. this this next question I am going to ask you is, I am going to read it to you this on all the other stuff going on in my head, because I have done it quite often. But I have to read this to make sure everything stated, do you feel that boomers are still having a problem with healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, and division between black and white, divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticized, criticized it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. And I know that is very still big in the veteran community. And, and, of course, what did the Vietnam Memorial do in Washington in terms of healing these divisions within the Vietnam generation, but Americans as a whole, and do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this? Or has 35 to 40 years, made the statement “Time heals all wounds” the truth? In other words, this this comes up because I want to do a little anecdote here. We took a group of students to see Edmund Muskie before he passed away, mid (19)90s. And in that meeting, we asked this very same question, we thought he was going to come back to the 1968 convention and all the protests and the divisions in the country. And he had a one-minute melodramatic pause, and he had just come out of the hospital. And he said, “I just watched the Ken Burn series when I was in the hospital. And my only answer to you is that we have not healed since the Civil War.” And-and then we went on into a 20-minute discussion with the students. Your thoughts on whether within our generation, the boomer generation, the 70 million, are having a problem with healing? Or am I just or am I just thinking something that is not really there?
44:04
RC: Well first of all, I am not sure what you mean, when you say healing. If you think that we were a generation that is looking to heal. It is unrealistic to me, as long as there is racism and discrimination, and, and inequality in this country, it is a gaping room with no hope of healing. It is not like there is a band aid on it. And you are hoping that it pulls together and starts to heal. It is a gaping wound to me every bit as evident as it was in the (19)60s. When, when we have a situation in this country, where a significant number of boomers are fighting to keep their children protected from the message of the President of the United States two weeks ago. That is racism, every bit as racist, as we saw, in the (19)60s, when we look on television, at people carrying signs in front of the White House, labeling the first African American president, a socialist, a terrorist and an illegal alien, then we have racism every bit as prevalent as we did in the (19)60s. You have, for the first time in recent history, I have never seen it, a congressman, who screamed out “You lie,” to the President of the United States during a joint session of Congress during a televised address to the nation in need, desperate for health care. That is blatant racism, like I have not seen, since the (19)60s when they were still using the “N” word you have got even today, for the first time in, in my lifetime ever, seeing people dressed in camouflage, with guns on their shoulders, at political healthcare rallies with the President of the United States there proclaiming their second amendment rights and, and being protected by their first amendment right, to be able to express their opposition with a gun in their hand. You know, there are people that are on talk radio applauding them even. I do not know if you saw that television, on television, the Baptist minister, a white minister using biblical scripture, the day before Barack Obama was coming to speak on health care in his town, citing biblical scriptures as justified praying for the death of the African American president. We have seen a significant rise in hate groups since 2000. And that has a lot to do with fears of immigration that are promulgated by a biased media, the failing economy and the election of a black president. We have people that are still saying when the African American president wins the Nobel Peace Prize, instead of celebrating as a nation, that our president is so honored, they were saying, “It is not time, it is too soon.” Now you tell me, we do not have a gaping wound when it comes to racism in this country. We have not come far enough to say any healing has begun. Because I fear every single day that will not happen.
47:46
SM: This is kind of an offshoot, does this say something about the boomer generation, their failure to live up to some of the things they were fighting for in their youth?
47:54
RC: I am sorry, but I cannot blame a generation. Because it was, I say, I mean, I believe that. In large part, the, the liberals and the African Americans, and the minorities, who were a big part of the anti-war movement, and the civil rights movement of the (19)60s, are the ones who played a significant role in getting Barack Obama elected. So, we are here. We are here and we were heard. And to be honest with you, I think we were not so muffled during the Bush years, because I still believe in my heart, he did not win either of those elections. They have the power and the connection to rig both of those elections. And I do think that the anger that was built within our rank in those eight volatile years. It played a significant role in our numbers doubling. And I think we reared our ugly face again, for the first time, since the (19)60s, in this last election.
49:03
SM: Good point. What, if you were to be in a room at Kent State University with students that you went to school with in the in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, say a room of 500. And, and you were to ask them, of all the events that took place in their lives. And again, the people at Kent State might say what happened on May 4, 1970. But if this was a, from all over the country, from all universities, what was the one event that had the greatest effect on them in their lives? What event would that be?
49:43
RC: Oh, so the Vietnam War. I would say the Kent state killings and the shootings at Jackson State are a part of that answer. I mean, you cannot separate the Vietnam War from the shootings at Kent State. Because it was the most polarizing war, it was one of the most unjust wars, one of the most protracted, it has taken 58,000 from our generation, it was a huge blight on our generation. And it was our generation that fought that war and that brought that word to its knees So that is the single defining moment of our generation, number one that, I mean not being affected, those of us who survived the shootings there, most profoundly. But all of us were profoundly affected by the Vietnam War. Everyone, whether they were there or not, they know somebody who died there or whose life was greatly affected by that war.
50:44
SM: When. when did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end?
50:50
RC: I would say it began with the election of John F. Kennedy in 1960. Was it 1960? Yeah, because he died in (19)63. Because that has when labor prevailed. He was seen as a president that that was accepted and supported by labor. That election was dominated by labor. And he was seen as a proponent of civil rights. And he was a- he was a Democrat. That, that the working class looked at it.
51:39
SM: And when did the (19)60s end?
51:43
RC: The (19)60s ended in 1970 [inaudible] was probably the most chilling and polarizing reaction to the strength of the voices that emanated from the women's movement, the civil rights movement, and the anti-war movement.
52:05
SM: What do you think was the main reason the Vietnam War ended?
52:10
RC: Because of Kent State, no question. Within six weeks of the shooting at Kent State, Nixon began withdrawing troops from Southeast Asia. If you look at any of his memoirs, or those written by his closest advisors, Ehrlichman and Haldeman they all say that the days after Kent State were the most dark of his presidency, it was after Kent State that he was most fearful. I mean, they had buses lined up around the White House. There were people in the streets in every, every, 750 college campuses shut down in protest. I believe it was that year that Harvard did not even have their, their graduation on time. Campuses were shut down. And when you tell the businesses out there that their Ivy League schools, and their colleges are not sending their graduates out to build their companies. That is a, that is a damning moment in this country. They never anticipated I think, when they conspired to-to hear era and stifle our voices, the students of Kent State. And I do believe it was planned everything ahead and-and funnel down through Governor Rhodes in the, Ohio. I do, I do believe that they did not anticipate the reaction it would bring when you when you shoot down four middle class, white students on the Kent State campus. Then all their efforts to brand them as outside agitators failed. Cause you know, they, they, every student hit with a bullet was a Kent State student. 24, or 25, 24 students and a faculty member indicted by the Ohio grand jury as part of the Kent 25, these were student and faculty, these were not outside agitators.
54:08
SM: One of the other issues besides the healing that I tried to get to in this interview is the issue of trust. There are a lot of examples that the boomers saw when they were young of leaders failing them in many ways. Some are very obvious, and some we found out in later years. Obviously, we knew about Watergate and Richard Nixon, and certainly Lyndon Johnson in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, and then Dwight Eisenhower on the U-2 incident when he lied to the nation on national television. And then in recent years, obviously, even President Bush and weapons of mass destruction there was also the issue John Kennedy, being involved with the coup in Vietnam and a lot of other things. What, why, I preface this question by something that a professor said to me in class, in psych 101. And it had nothing to do with what was going on the world it had to do with how people deal with each other. And that is that he, this professor said that trust is a very important quality, we must have in ourselves toward others. Because if there is, if we cannot trust anybody, we probably most likely will not be a success in life. And that always stuck with me in a 101 class. And then that was in the mid to late (19)60s when I was in college, and then all this stuff is happening. And the boomer generation has always been looked at many times as a generation that is distrustful of all leaders, no matter what position they were in, whether it be a university president, a rabbi, a priest, a head of a corporation or a politician. And certainly, college administrators, your thoughts on how important this issue of trust is, within the generation? Is this a negative that this generation did not trust? I guess what I am getting at how important the lack of trust within the boomer generation has played in their lives and passing this on to their kids and their grandkids.
56:13
RC: First of all, the lack of trust does not emanate from the boomer generation. This is something that occurred over time. And I would say that that stands with the Watergate era, where, for the first time we were confronted in our democracy, with the reality that even the people we entrust in our fair elections, to be in government, and even with all of the laws and with a rock-solid Constitution, which by the way, is I understand, the oldest constitution in the world that has survived. With that in place, if we could have such government corruption, as we witnessed in the Watergate era, where every branch of government was involved in that cover up: the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branches of government were all, and the CIA and the FBI, intelligence, were all involved in criminal conduct and in cover up of that criminal conduct. That was the first time in our nation's history where we were confronted with how far reaching that deception can be. And we have spent a great deal of time since then, devising laws that would make it more difficult for that to happen again. And yeah. In the last eight years, we saw where many of those protections that came in the wake of Watergate, were undermined and ignored and overturned by the Bush administration. And we saw more illegal wiretapping. We saw more corruption; we saw rigged election. We saw unprecedented corruption and greed. And we had none of the safeguards that it seemed we had that brought down the Nixon administration, we still have not brought down the Bush administration. Because that deception remains, as long as money controls our government to such an extent, we cannot trust anybody that we elect, because the majority of them who are in those offices are beholden to their lobbyists, and their corporations that are promising them huge golden parachutes, when they come out of Congress, and it is a one man show, every man for himself in government, and I do not view any of that trust in other people being restored. And it is not just trust in other people. But if this is a government of the people, by the people, for the people, if we have no trust in government, then we cannot trust that we the people can effect change, even in the ballot box, and so on. So, we go to public financed elections and take the money out of the realm of corporate corporations that can buy those votes, then trust will never have any hope of being restored.
59:37
SM: Music played a very important part in the lives of boomers, and you have made reference to Woodstock generation, of course Woodstock anniversary was this year, 40th anniversary and all the great musicians that were around in the (19)60s and in the early (19)70s. Your comments on how important music was in not only aiding but assisting a lot of the causes that were that the boomer generation was linked to. And of course, when we talk about this tour, we are not only talking about rock music, we are talking about Motown, which was a very popular music of this of the year, your thoughts on the musicians and music and people who were musicians, and may have had the greatest influence on the boomer generation.
1:00:26
RC: Well, you know, prior to the music that you are referring to, you know, we were listening on AM radio in the early (19)60s, to Johnny Angel, you know, and Leader of the Pact, and all these, you know, love songs and songs about rock and roll and the bandstand, you know, kind of dance music. And then suddenly, I can still remember the first time I heard Bob Dylan singing “The Times They Are A-Changin.” And it was poetry, you know, it was a method. I have never heard music like that. I have never heard a voice like that. I have never heard people just sitting down and listening to lyrics, until I got to Kent State and saw people not dancing, [inaudible], but sitting on the floor, listening to the words, the song, like, like, go, and like, you know, the folk songs would be Joni Mitchell “paving paradise and putting up a parking lot” and all of these voices telling us that things are not what they should be, and that there is a better way, and that we have a responsibility to change it. The antiwar song that came, you know just, “something happened in here, you know, there is a man with the gun over there.” You know, just the song itself “War, what is it good for?”. I mean, they, every single day, we were being challenged to think. And before that we were not, we were just, you know, kind of dumbed down to, to just feel. Feel good about what we had, feel good about our dreams and out plans but not think about anybody else in the picture. And suddenly there were these musicians that were making an entire generation aware of the ugliness of war of the unfairness of things and of the responsibilities we had to be part of what was happening, “the times they were a-changing” And it was inspirational. To watch that music not only grow in popularity, but draw half a million people to upstate New York, to celebrate the fact that, you know, we were born again, as-as, as Americans, we rejected the values of the generation before and we were going to look different. We were going to sound different. You know, we were going to wear different clothing, different hairstyles, and we were falling in love, not just with peace and music and [inaudible] but with the belief that we have in the power of people to change the world.
1:03:14
SM: That leads right into what do you think the lasting legacy will be of the boomer generation, best, the best history books, there has been a lot, a lot of great books in the (19)60s coming out right now and over the years. But historians often say that it is 50 years before the best history books start arriving on a period. So, when the boomer generation is in very old age, or is passed on, and then the best books are being written about that 1946 anon period for boomers, what do you think they are going to? What do you think the sociologists and historians might say about this generation?
1:03:52
RC: I think more than any other generation in our nation's history, we had an entire generation that was, that became what I think all college students have historically been. Because we were the generation that our relatively non-college going parents made sure would all go to college. We were like the generation that arrived on college campuses when it was affordable and when it was part of the American dream. And college campuses have traditionally been a haven for protest, a place where ideas are debated the ideas of the day are debated and where people prepare and plan to become effective participants in American society. And as part of that dream of our parents, we became more than any other generation, the conscience of America and on college campuses. When we look war in the face and said: We do not like the war, you wage in our name and we are not going, we do not care that you are drafting us, we are not going. We will go to Canada before we fight. We are not going. We will stand in the streets and lock arms in Washington and keep you from going to your businesses and keep governments from going to their offices, no business as usual. As long as this for as long as long as this war is taking our generation, and fighting something that is just unjust, we were the conscience of America. And I think that is why as I said before, it is by design since then, that they have made sure that college students today do not have the time to do the thinking and the dreaming that we had. They do not have time today, [inaudible] because we are a nation right now. Without a Conscience.
1:05:49
SM: Before I go into the last part of the interview, which is basically some of the personalities and terms of period, where we just make a few comments. This this one I would like you just do, like John Filo did when I interviewed him early summer, what was it like to be? I was not there. But in your own words, what was it like to be there on May 4, 1970, maybe just to give a little description of the day. And I remember John told me that, you know that he never planned to be there that day, he was an off-campus reporter was called to the event, was studying for working on a paper, and then he was thrust right into it. Just your thoughts of what transpired on that day, May 4, 1970.
1:06:41
RC: Well, I planned to be there. The shooting occurred in the backyard of my dormitory. But when that day started, I remember most even as we walked through the campus, looking at other cadres, as we call them, the Kent SDS was no longer but I was part of a cadre of activists that for that entire year had gone to demonstrations in Washington and Chicago and Cleveland and, and we had just gone to Ohio State to support them the Friday before when they were getting shot at with buckshot and, and tear gas. And I remember as I was walking up to the campus, and I saw another group called the Elm Street gang, and it was like, I felt as part of something significant, I felt a part of something important. We were committed to putting that war to an end, Nixon had announced the invasion of Cambodia only days before. And the campuses across this country were up in arms. students across this country were saying no to war in record breaking numbers. And it is mind boggling to me that we had such a connection to one another, from campus to campus across this country. And we did not have what kids have today, internet. We did this all with telephone long distance calls and leaflets on our own campuses. And with a media that covers what we did. We were as united on that morning, as I had ever seen anyone, I felt a part of something so much bigger than myself. It was not about an action that the crazies were going to do. It was not about an action happening on the Penn State campus. It was about a call made at Rutgers University for a National Student strike. And we were part of that we were part of something that was happening across this nation. And so, I entered the campus feeling inspired, feeling, feeling energized, feeling empowered. And even as the National Guardsmen advanced on us with tear gas again, and with the bayonets that proved, you know, so devastating to the kids who had been stabbed the night before. I never felt the sense of fear, even in the midst of all of that opposition, all of that military might, I still had trust in our lie, in America, and in our Constitution and its guarantees of the right to free speech. I still had trust that as long as we protested peacefully, they would never open fire on us. And that was a rude awakening. Which is quite an understatement, to, to see them lift their weapons in aim at us on the practice football field was shocking enough, shocking enough that as my brother walked toward them with his black flag, I walked up to Alan and said, “Alan, they are aiming right at you. Let us get out of here.” I actually said to him because it was the first time ever it had crossed my mind. Do they hate us so much that they could open fire on and even as they left the practice field and made their accent up the hill? I still watch and even as I turn them turn, even as I watched them turn in unison and lift their weapons and even as I saw the puffs of smoke. My first instinct was to run far because students at Ohio State had been shot at with buckshot. It never occurred to me; they would have lived military ammunition. And if it were not for Alan's roommate, Jimmy, who pulled me behind a parked car, I might also have been hit because as soon as we got behind the car, it was obvious that this was live ammunition was zipping by our heads and piercing the steel bodies of the cars and something into the grass to our left and the pavement to our right. It was the most horrifying 13 seconds of realization that, you know, when the gunfire ended, my first thought was, “oh my god, they shot they shot us” and then to come out from behind that car and see Bill Schroeder lying on his back with blood on his shoulder, three feet behind me and I can see over in the premise yard. My friend Sandy Scheuer, being carried with a shot a bullet through her juggler vein and then remembering where I had last seen Alan would have put him directly in the line of fire. I went running across the pavement to the foot of Blanket Hill seeing, someone lying in a pool of blood and dreading that it was Alan only to find Jeff lying in a pool of blood and then my friend Eddie running up behind me and yelling into my ear, Alan and Tom both got hit. You know that is-that is a, that is a moment that has never left me, the shock of it. The fear, the, the sound, the colors, everything is as, as vivid in my mind as it was on that day. To see American soldiers turning their guns on American people is something that I hope nobody in America will ever witness again.
1:12:12
SM: Did you go to the funerals of any of the students?
1:12:16
RC: No, I did not. We, Sandy's funeral was in Youngstown. And Allison's was in Vicksburg. They were huge media events at the time. And it was, I do not know how to explain. We were getting a lot of phone calls from press, we were getting a lot of hate mail, and death threats. Because Alan was one of the wounded. He was seen as one of the instigators and FBI was calling and whatever. It is not surprising that we all went home and stayed there for a while. We did not seek out anything, any, any of the places where the media was, I almost regret that because I think we should have been telling the truth that we knew immediately. But any of us who were really actively involved when we had our own family members, like my aunt who barged into my mother's kitchen that night, looking at Alan with his arm bandage still, from his wound, yelling, “you know, there was a sniper, you know, there was a sniper.” I mean, like to have your own family members believe that American soldiers would not turn their guns on American people without provocation and without a reason to do so. You know, you are living in a country that sees you not as a victim. But as an enemy. You do not want to- you do not want to leave the house.
1:13:50
SM: Even leading up to that weekend or over the last the two years when you were an activist at the university and going to other schools. Did you feel that you were being watched at all by, like the student leaders of Kent State were being watched by the FBI or the CIA or did you have any sense of that or was all this realization came, not trusting the government right on that day?
1:14:14
RC: I never experienced any of that paranoia until 1977. When we moved on to the campus intent to protect the May 4 site from destruction. It was during that time that it was very obvious we were being followed. I mean, there was a cop car following my-my Ford Pinto everywhere I went on that campus. We were being, we had charges dredged up against us, I was charged with criminal trespass at an action when I was on when my lawyer actually me on the good time had to-to keep me far away from Kent because they kept jailing the leaders of the May 4th coalition. There were so many trumped up charges on us in 1977 that our attorneys were successful in bringing in members of the US Justice Department to follow us around so that we had proof that we were not breaking the law. So, we could avoid having more of the trumped-up charges against us.
1:15:14
SM: When you heard about-
1:15:16
RC: That was the only time I have been paranoid about being followed.
1:15:19
SM: When you heard about Jackson State. How did you react to that? The Jackson State killings?
1:15:24
RC: Oh, well, we were not, that that was our, that is our sister in tragedy. I mean, we were still reeling from what happened to us only days later to hear that it was still happening on this campus. But what bothered me most was the outrage was, was so minimal, compared and I was not sure if it was strictly racism, or just an America too numb to care anymore. You know, because had had they had succeeded in having the chilling effect that they desired, that they could continue to shoot students, and not have any action, any reaction would be, you know, decreased rather than in-, would there be an increase? I think, I do not know if it was a test, test run, or what. But it was always, to me very tragic that the students at Jackson State, the deaths of their students at Jackson State, did not meet with the widespread protests of four white kids at Kent State.
1:16:22
SM: Thanks for sharing the experience. My note still, I can tell in your voice, when we were talking here that even brings a lot of emotion to you even now, and probably will forever.
1:16:40
RC: How Could it not, How Could it not, [Pardon] How could it not?
1:16:41
SM: Oh, yes, that is right. And again, I think I have mentioned to you and Alan, the effect that this has had all over the country that I often wonder how many people there are in the United States, who are our age who that that event on that day has shaped their lives. I wish someday-
1:17:01
RC: I would like to believe that it did not make them more reluctant to stand up for what they believe in. I would like I would like to believe that they have not taught their children more about the risks of campus activism than, you know, the historical significance and the gains of that of that activism. I think that student activism is still alive on our college campuses. I just think that, like I said before, we have made it more and more difficult for students to be there more and more students live, you know, off campus, or for have to commute or have to go to jobs, after they are, when they are not in classes that they do not congregate the way, we did. We used to hang out in the hub by hundreds every day, and play music and talk we talked about the shooting. I do not see that-
1:17:56
SM: There used to be guerrilla theater tours. But I have not seen that since I was a college student.
1:18:05
RC: I loved it, SDS always had a guerilla theater committee.
1:18:07
SM: The, the end of the interview, we are just going to be just real quick responses to, to words or terms or our names of people. Woodstock.
1:18:17
RC what do you want me to do? Come up with a word or a phrase?
1:18:21
SM: A word or just-just a couple of words and just your thoughts when you hear the, these names or terms of the (19)60s, Woodstock?
1:18:30
RC: The birth of a new era-
1:18:35
SM: 1968
1:18:39
RC: Robert Kennedy's assassination-
1:18:42
SM: Counterculture. [Woodstock] What I did not hear?
1:18:48
RC: Woodstock. [laughter] Or more the Yippies, I kind of thought of them both at the same time, the, the hippies and the Yippies-
1:18:58
SM: Yeah, that was my next, how did you know that? ESP here, that was my next one. The hippies and the Yippies.
1:19:06
RC: Counterculture.
1:18:58
SM: Students for democratic society.
1:18:58
RC: [undecipherable]:
1:18:58
SM: Weathermen?
1:19:13
RC: Absolutely, the best idea, the most organized, the most inspirational and the start of it all. If it were not for SDS at Kent the impact, May 4th would not have happened, and I do not blame them for the shooting. I blame them for the movement that brought the attention to Kent State. So, that Nixon hated Kent SDS. I think he chose Kent to be the, the martyr, the victim rather, Kent to be the, I take that back. He chose Kent to send, as the place to send his message that student protests will not be tolerated because of SDS. They were, they were the most significant, organized catalyst for the student anti-war movement in this country-
1:20:12
SM: The Weathermen?
1:20:15
RC: Well, I would just say, not misinformed, what was I, there is a word I am thinking of misguided. [chuckles]
1:20:25
SM: The Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
1:20:29
RC: Powerful. Powerful. They were among us. We had friends who came home from Vietnam and joined Vietnam Veterans Against the War and VVAW. And they walked alongside us, they were with us, they were shot at with us. I had one friend with his dog tags still around his neck, who survived the shooting at Kent said he was more afraid on May 4th than he ever was in Vietnam. So, they played a very significant role joining our protests and-and I think giving-giving credibility to the anti-war movement.
1:21:04
SM: How about the Young Americans for Freedom? I am not sure if you are aware of that group.
1:21:08
RC: I do not remember who they were.
1:21:10
SM: They were the conservative group that was against the war.
1:21:13
RC: I did not, I obviously, I think that now that you say that I do have a vague recollection of them. I did not pay much attention to them. I do not I do not remember having any experience with them. I do not remember them having a viable presence on the campus. I only remember hearing about them. And so, I felt detached from them.
1:21:33
SM: The enemies list?
1:21:36
RC: Oh, well, I would say we probably have a bigger one now.
1:21:43
SM: Abbie Hoffman-
1:21:46
RC: You know what? I have, I have a very positive reaction when I hear the name of Abbie Hoffman, because he and Jerry Rubin and the Yippies, and the Chicago Eight, I think did more to, for publicity. Did more to give a face and establish the humaneness to the anti-war movement. We were not just, you know, a bunch of radical, you know, to the cause. I mean, I think people always had a tendency to believe that anybody that protested was like the labor movement, the civil rights movement, just this group of people that had that had like, a single agenda, sort of thing. When, when the Yippies came on the scene and Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman and the Chicago A they brought humor to it, and they made people relate to it. You know, everybody knows what it means to be to be treated unfair, and to have things not make sense when someone tries to justify that unfairness. And I think nobody brought that to light more than Abbie Hoffman during the Chicago Eight trials. I mean, people who would never pay attention to anything involving both sides, reading and laughing and following what was going on there. And I think they are by learning things they otherwise might not have learned about. American injustice.
1:23:15
SM: That is amazing. Because just today when I interviewed Rennie, he talked about Abbie and in one of the MOBE events where they were facing 20- (audio cuts out).
1:23:28
RC: I mean it is like the whole Doonesbury, you know, that they play, you know, cartoonists, and then there are people will never read the front page about war, but they will read the cartoons and they will learn about the war. You know, Abbie, Abbie, played that role. [How Bout…] I think, I think brought a lot more people to the movement because of his humor and how he, you know, made it a human experience. And, you know, like, that, people were just so ruled by that with television sitcoms were so big at the time, whatever it became like watching a television sitcom every day.
1:24:02
SM: Right. Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda?
1:24:07
RC: A perfect match for a perfect time. [chuckles] I, I admire both of them. I never understood Jane Fonda going the Christian route when she did, but you know, I remember the wonderful work she did with the winter soldiers. And I always admired Tom Hayden and I always saw him and Rennie as the intellectuals in the Chicago Eight. And I, I always I have, I have long admired Tom Hayden and his continued activism. And I just think that the time when he and Jane Fonda were working together was, was a very important time for two brilliant minds to work in concert.
1:24:50
SM: Yeah, I came to Kent State with those students from OU (Ohio University) the year that they came to Kent State, it goes the fourth anniversary [yeah], and I was in a room with them. They were walking around the campus, and we were in this small room, and I do not remember what building, but we were in there for an hour talk and they were great. The Black Panthers, which was Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Angela Davis, the Cleavers, Kathleen and Eldridge. Just your thoughts on black power and the black power movement.
1:25:18
RC: I will tell you I admired the Black Power movement when I moved to Boston right after May 4, the one because I stayed involved with, I left after Kent State and moved to Boston, with the intent to get away from politics. I was so disillusioned with what I just witnessed that I did not want to be part of anything political for a while. But the one organization that I visited, when I was sitting in Cambridge, I was walking down by the Charles River, and I saw the storefront for the Black Panther Party, and I went over there, because they had a profound impact on me in in understanding the plight of black Americans that that was much more serious than anything I have seen through the eyes of Martin Luther King. You know, I mean, I, I was always aware of the civil rights movement, and always impressed and inspired by those that follow Dr. King, but it was the Black Panther Party that showed us a darker side of racism in this country, and really illustrated, you know, how many blacks were being gunned down in their communities and the atrocities, you know, committed by the Oakland Police and it was a I was kind of educated when the Oakland Police came to recruit at Kent State. And SDS protested vehemently. That was my first exposure to the Black Panther Party and everything that they did in their neighborhoods, with their breakfast programs and their protection programs and whatever, to me, was every bit as impressive as everything I have seen in SDS
1:26:55
SM: Let us get straight into Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X.
1:27:01
RC: Oh, well, you know, they both played a very, very important role in the lives of African Americans because even though you know, there were most of the people followed Dr. Martin Luther King's advice about keeping protest peaceful and whatever, Malcolm X also legitimized, you know, protecting yourself and doing what, what is absolutely necessary to protect your family. And, you know, he, he put a face on government as a violent government in a way that Martin Luther King did not in his rhetoric. And, you know, I think that that was an important, that was important awareness to the edibility went one step further than Martin Luther King, because there were some that knew that they had grown more weary of, of just marching and petitioning. There were others that realize we have got to be a lot more proactive in meeting the man face to face. Malcolm X played that role.
1:28:03
SM: Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew.
1:28:09
RC: Oh god, criminal-criminal, Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew laid the groundwork for the bloodshed at Kent and Jackson State, Nixon called campus protesters, Agnew called, likened us to Nazis and Klansmen. Okay, they inspired those to, inspired the rhetoric of Governor Reagan who said if these students want a bloodbath, let us get it over with then Governor Rhodes at, in Ohio. He said these are worse than the night riders and vigilantes. He is the worst type of people we harbor in America. It is over within Ohio. We are not going to treat the symptoms we are going to eradicate the problem. It began with Nixon and Agnew's dehumanizing us and treating us as, as what we would be seen as today as terrorists. And then with Reagan and Rhodes following suit, it was easy for armed gunman to come on our campus and not see us as idealistic youth, but to see us instead, as target and as an enemy in a combat situation. I blame them for the deaths at Kent state and Jackson State.
1:29:19
SM: Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara.
1:29:22
RC: Well, I had some very negative feelings, well negative feelings about both good feelings about Johnson when it came to civil rights, negative feelings about Johnson when it came to the Vietnam War. Negative feelings about Robert McNamara for living a lie as long as he did about the Vietnam War when he knew the truth that it was unwinnable. But when everyone was chastising him for coming out with the truth with his book later, when he admitted that, that people died for nothing in Vietnam, while other people were, were shunning him. I said, You know what, how many people have gone to their grave like Nixon and Agnew with the truth that they knew and never told that before, before they died, Robert McNamara could you know, truth at any time is valuable to me, truth at any time means something to me. And so, it was easier to forgive McNamara, because he owned up to his mind while he was still alive, so I have some respect for a man that I thought only was the same for many decades.
1:30:23
SM: The two Kennedy’s, John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy.
1:30:25
RC: I love the Kennedy’s. I mean, for all the faults of John F. Kennedy that have come out in the history books since then. I do not ever remember being more inspired. And, you know, seeing I mean, I never saw the White House through those kinds of eyes until they were in there. They, it was a focus on family and focus on civil rights, a focus on America, the values of America that were always in our history books, and that seemed to disappear with his assassination. And then more so, even more so in the assassination of his brother, who I think was the better of the two. I still cannot watch films of Bobby Kennedy and seeing him riding on the train. I sobbed for days afterwards. Whenever I watch any live footage of Bobby speaking and campaigning, before he died. I was so I am so affected by it, it is too painful for me.
1:31:28
SM: Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern.
1:31:32
RC: Oh, Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. Well, you know, they were there, it is hard to even say anything definitive about them. They were, I would say they were important candidates to the anti-war movement, because they were politicians who campaigned on anti, anti-war agendas. But I never felt that they were strong enough candidates, they all paled in comparison to the Kennedys. So that is all I remember, was never really feeling like we had to return to the strength of the candidates that we had before them.
1:32:10
SM: Timothy Leary.
1:32:13
RC: Oh, Timothy Leary. I worked at Harvard while he was still there. Now there was some- this guy's had a lot to do with painting the image of the Woodstock generation as just a bunch of drug crazed hippies. So, I do not know, to me he was just a Harvard professor who, who was played a significant role in branding the Woodstock generation as a generation where drug use was rampant, kind of delegitimize and seem to glorify that whole as the generation, psychedelic generation, so I, I do not see him as being political, even though he was part of the anti-war movement. I more associate him with drugs that would change.
1:33:10
SM: How about George Wallace and Ronald Reagan?
1:33:16
RC: George Wallace I think I think of him as a racist, still. Ronald Reagan, I see him as a joke. I never I do not know how people can continue to praise a presidency where maybe he as an individual did so little. Ronald Reagan was made out to be a great president, after his death by a right-wing media that decided to create an icon. So I see them both as. I think George Wallace was significant in in polarizing the south, and I see Reagan was significant, showing that we are our values. Our, our selectivity for president's presidential candidate was continuing to decline significantly
1:34:09
SM: Which leads into just Jerry Ford and Jimmy Carter.
1:34:13
RC: Jerry Ford, I just thing of Chevy Chase, when I think of Jerry Ford, my strongest recollections of Jerry Ford are tripping and falling and standing up at state dinners and on his own two feet still falling over. Jerry Ford was a pasty. Jerry Ford was president only because he agreed to pardon Nixon. He was a sellout and a cop out. And probably one of the worst presidents we have ever had. Who was the other one you just asked? Jimmy Carter. You know, he had the presidency at an awful time. I think he took the reins at a time when we were on the verge of a terrible recession. And I was living in New York at the time we were waiting in gas lines, and I think he is probably one of the most misunderstood presidents. And he was just like Reagan being defined after his presidency. Jimmy Carter really became the president that I think people hoped they were electing. Afterwards, I admire him tremendously for the work that he has done with Habitat for Humanity and world peace, promoting world peace, he is certainly deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize. And I was never more proud of him than when he was the first what was happening in Congress with calling Obama a liar, racism or the racism that was, I have, I have as much respect for him as one of the few-
1:35:40
SM: Daniel Ellsberg and Benjamin Spock.
1:35:45
RC: You know, I think of them as being again icons in the anti-war movement. Daniel Ellsberg. And he is when you think about the Pentagon Papers, and the role that they played, that was huge in bringing Middle America to understand what took Robert McNamara how long to tell the truth about that we were lying. We had done what we have come to do so well, today, lied America into an unjust war and sacrifice an entire generation of youth for that lie. Ellsberg Put his, his life and freedom on the line to get that truth, tremendous respect for him. And Benjamin Spock was, again, you know, when you have professional people like that, who have a good life and a good reputation, and then they create a whole new image of themselves as part of an anti-war movement. I think that was a bold response and he suffered a lot of criticism and was misunderstood a great deal. But again, like Abbie Hoffman, these are people that all were responsible for bringing a certain awareness from a certain segment of the population to the anti-war movement, they all played a part.
1:36:58
SM: That brings right into Daniel and Philip Berrigan, the Berrigan brothers and Barry Goldwater.
1:37:05
RC: I would say, Berrigans’, same as above, they played a significant role, and everybody has their part to play in the anti-war movement, but Barry Goldwater was probably one of the only republicans that that understood the danger of the kind of partisan politics that we see today. Because it was probably the last of the great Republicans who could work in a bipartisan way in Congress and who truly did see the danger of the military industrial complex, like Eisenhower was not as good a Republican, I do not think. But Barry Goldwater was a brilliant man and a humanitarian. And even though I have never ever in my life supported a Republican, I think he was one of the last ones that truly stood up to traditional republican values.
1:38:09
SM: How about John Dean? I am almost done. John Dean.
1:38:12
RC: John Dean, one of the greatest contributors, were it not for John Dean, I do not think we would know as much as the truth of Watergate that we do. And more importantly, is being at the heart of the Watergate scandal has done, has given him a perspective unlike any other Americans in how much more corrupt the Bush administration was, how much more they were able to get to get away with because they, they, you know, they could act, they did not have to worry about the tape that exposed Nixon, they made sure they went through the Republican National Committee with their secret email system that probably cost the life of what was his name, Mike McConnell, who died mysteriously in a plane crash in December, because he knew the extent of that it was called [inaudible]. Libyan underground communication system, but we know about-about Watergate, mostly because of John Dean's brilliant I mean, he is-he is a brilliant writer. He is a brilliant and-and probably one, what it is said that book that he just wrote, oh, “Conservatives without Conscience.”
1:39:04
SM: He wrote “Worse than Watergate too-
1:38:12
RC: He Wrote “Worse than Watergate,” which is very good, but his book “conservatives without conscience” more than any book I have ever read about republicans helped me to understand the difference between a Goldwater Republican Reagan Republican, Cheney Republican, and Bush Republicans. He knows theory and he know research on authoritarian personalities and the danger of having authoritarian personalities in positions of high office-office, where if you do not have a conscience, people will suffer and die and pay a huge price for your greed and corruption. And it made my blood went cold when I read his book because I realized the extent to which we had authoritarian personalities in high positions of office in the Bush administration. John Dean is, I was, I would campaign for him for President if he were ever to run.
1:40:31
SM: He lives in California. I think right now, but he comes to DC a lot.
1:40:36
RC: I think he may, he may be one of the most brilliant critical writers of our time.
1:40:40
SM: You know, he is from Binghamton, New York.
1:40:42
RC: One with-with more insight into the inner workings of government than anybody. He should be on. It should be on any advisory staff in the White House.
1:40:52
SM: But he is good. I have seen him on TV. The women, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan.
1:41:00
RC: You know what, all these women played a role in legitimizing women in positions of power, women in positions of influence. You know, I mean when I think of Bella Abzug, I think of her hat. But I also really think of just, I mean, I have never seen a woman with-with so much strength and-and could just to speak off the cuff like that, you know, I mean, she was just, it was a mover and a shaker. You know, Gloria Steinem did a lot for the women's movement and continues to write, I think, some pretty brilliant treatises on, on the role of women, I was so glad to see her coming out. With I think Gloria Steinem take on women, and the role of women in politics in particular, is exactly what we have seen the opposite of what Sarah Palin.
1:41:53
SM: Oh, yes,
1:41:54
RC: we need we need more analysis so that women understand when they are being misled by men to use token women to convey a man's message. There is no question in my mind. For example, the Sarah Palin is today the Stepford wife of Dick Cheney.
1:42:13
SM: [laughter] Now that is another magic moment.
1:42:16
RC: There is no question about it. Because, Cheney, if you notice, as soon as Obama was elected, he came out, and he kept talking, he went, he made his rounds on all the talk shows, and then everybody was kind of laughing at him, like, “go away Dick, your policies were voted out.” So then, mysteriously, he started using his daughter, his gay daughter, and who's the other one, Liz? Liz Cheney.
1:42:40
SM: Yes-yes. She is on TV a lot. Yeah.
1:42:44
RC: It is like, where do these women come from, they were never spokesperson for the Republican Party or for any political agenda. They were never political. But suddenly, they had all of these talking points. And it was like, I truly believe in, and logic tells me this and everything I am seeing tells this, Dick Cheney spent eight years using George Bush for his talking points. So, all he had left was two girls in his family that he could put out there. And then, they say right before the right before and right after Sarah Palin gave up her governorship, she was on the phone with Cheney. I think it was orchestrated by Cheney; I think he was educating her. I think he was handing her, her talking points. I think he was- he was behind everything. Every single- everything she was doing all these things, and still trying to run the country [indecipherable] still be a significant following of women [indecipherable]-
1:43:49
SM: What, what do you see in the two Boomer presidents that are that are linked to the qualities of boomers and that is Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.
1:43:59
RC: Oh, I have never thought of George W. Bush as a boomer is that terrible. I have always seen him as this. Otherworldly. Bill Clinton is brilliant. I always say his wife, is the more brilliant of the two. When I read her book, “Living History.” I imagine what it must have been like for her the second time he sat down on her bed and said we have to talk about his ridiculous, you know, discretion with you know, women are not weak in that way. I am sorry. I have to say it, a spade a spade here. You do not see women leaders experiencing the shortcomings when it comes to setting, you know, women discretions, as we have seen with governors and-and people like Bill Clinton, you know, who risk so much in there, he was doing such important work. And he was effecting such important change, that he did not know how easy it would be to fall. If it were known those kinds of indiscretions in the White House and such, you know, in a public place like that, that I think somebody like a Hillary knows that and understands that, and I am not I do not need to minimize it to it just being a point of who is stronger. That is not succumbing to sexual pressure and advances in temptation. But in reading about their political walk together, she always struck me as the more knowledgeable, the more decisive, the more inquisitive, and the more strong, person between the two, but you know, things being a as they may, women were not seen in the same light as men. And so, he was the one elected unfortunately, rather than her, I think it would have been a different America, had she got into the White House before him. And I will support her when she runs next. So, I have a lot of respect for Bill Clinton, I lost a lot of respect for him because he just was so stupid about little things that overshadowed his brilliance on such big things. But George W. Bush is not a self-made man. He is a father, you know, he is a Bush family made. man. He is an idiot. He cannot string two sentences together. I do not think he had an original idea when he was in the White House. And I think that he did not win either election. I think both of them were stolen and he was a pasty of Dick Cheney the whole time. This was all the neoconservative dogfight, Dick Cheney, all of those people from the original PNAC, you know, Progress for New American Century, ran our government for eight years. And George Bush was their patsy.
1:46:44
SM: Down to my last two questions. One is the books of the year, when you were in college, were you or were any of your peers’ reading books that had an influence on you? Were there authors or-
1:46:57
RC: You know, authors that had a tremendous influence on me were Bernard Shaw, I remember when my brothers got their draft notices, as I was reading a lot of what Bernard Shaw was saying, just to understand the historical context for the war in Vietnam, when I actually started to imagine my brothers being sent off to Southeast Asia to fight, I kind of wanted to know where it all began, I knew that I wanted to do the play a part in keeping them from going, but I also knew the importance of knowing what I was talking about. Because even as I said, I was against the war, I was really only saying I was against my brother's going, and I was not able to articulate a reason why. And so, I remember reading a lot of things by Bernard Shaw, but I would say, without question, it was a lot of what was happening in the papers, the newspapers were a critical part of my, of my newspapers and television were a critical part of my growing sense of dissatisfaction with the war with my growing awareness of the wrongness of it. And I really do believe that the Chicago Seven Trials, eventually the Chicago Eight Trials were instrumental, those books, like “do it” and feel this book. Again, were very, very, they were fun to read. And they were inspirational. They made it seem not just important to be part of the movement, but fun and cool. To be part of the movement-
1:48:26
SM: Particularly when, when remember when Jerry Rubin went in, into the bank.
1:48:31
RC: Yeah.
1:48:32
SM: Yeah, he wanted to go to the bathroom. And they said, you get out of here, and he went right in the middle of the bank. [laughter]
1:48:38
RC: I know, and people laugh at that, and they become heroes for dropping out and, you know, turning on as they said, and so I would say that those were very important influence.
1:48:53
SM: The last question I have because we have been talking about the (19)60s and the (19)70s and everything afterwards but the (19)50s and you mentioned about you know, being around your parents and the labor union talking at the dinner table and everything but what kind of an influence did the (19)50s have on you it was portrayed as the era where the World War II generation want give everything to their kids because they grew up in the depression and then they went through war and they wanted the kids to have everything many of them are boomers were the first ones to ever go to college. People, we watched television, the black and white TV, we watched Howdy Doody, Rootie Kazootie and all the kids, the TV shows and everything about family and seemed like everybody was happy and-and then of course, the Mickey Mouse Club and TV westerns and of course we have read about those in recent years how been the good guys and the bad guys and we have portrayed to a lot of the boomers and the Indians being the bad guys, but just your overall. Well, how did the (19)50s shape you, you know, and I have always wondered that because you got to talk about the (19)50s when you were talking about boomers.
1:50:07
RC: Well, I had to stay at home mom, like most of the kids. You know, I, I went to school in Barberton, a working-class town where it was, it was an anomaly if anybody's mother work. I used to- I remember saying to my mother, what, you know, I am so proud that you were a nurse, why do not you go back into nursing, I would have been very, very proud to have a working mother, but she said, no, your father wants me to stay home with the kids. My mother never drove a car, I had to sneak to take drivers training, so that I could drive a car, because my father believed that women shouldn't drive cars and his answer was always your mother does not drive, you do not need to drive. So, you know, I not only had that very personal influence that women's places in the home and women do not have mobility upward or even outward, they have to rely on a man to get around they have to rely on a man for everything. But I also had, you know, the influence of television which you know, had the- you know, Ward Cleaver and-and June you know, where even when it came to making important decisions about the children or the home, it was always “wait till your father gets home,” she could never decide anything for herself Ward had to always kind of put everything into perspective. And he was the intelligent one. And even the few role models that I had, like on Sky King, you know, you had Penny, who also could fly but of course, she had to, you know, rely on-on, you know, her uncle for whenever things got tough. So, women could, women could be involved in things, but they could not run things. And for the most part, I grew up in, I, we lived right next door to the high school. And so, my greatest aspirations were not to be the valedictorian of my school, even though I was in gifted classes from the time I was in fourth grade, but to be what look like television wanted us to be, you know, with the Miss America pageant, showing that we are supposed to be pretty and complacent. And so American and I would always sit on my porch and watch the girls arriving for prom and homecoming with their gowns and watch the cheerleaders practicing and the major at marching. You know, with that sizing, when I first went off that can say that I wanted to just be an extension of what I was in high school, I tried out for cheerleader Kent State. I tried out for the [inaudible], I instantly got involved in social activities. And I was the social chairman for my dorm, planning the rowboat regatta and passing out lollipops and roses to the tune of Burt Bacharach with my brother and his friends came marching through Lake Hall, honest to God, “champion 1234 we do not want your fucking war.” And I called my brother just devastated: How could you do that? You ruined my moment. You know, we are playing Burt Bacharach and passing lollipops and roses, talking to little sisters and they are talking, you know, throwing the F bomb and talking about war. And, you know, I desperately in the first year at Kent State hung on to that upbringing and that stereotype that I was conditioned to become a mindless, you know, complacent girl who, you know, even if I had the presence of mind to get myself to college, I was only going to be a teacher or a secretary or a librarian, you know, and I certainly was not going to be an anti-war activist or have thought of my own.
1:53:33
SM: Very well said, I had no more questions. Is there a question that I did not ask that you thought I might ask?
1:53:43
RC: I had no idea that I had no idea what you are writing or what you are looking for. I just responded saying that I can, with far, far more words than I prefer. But so, I hope you'll choose the best. And not make me look like a long-winded attorney-
1:53:58
SM: No, it is all every see, every interview has been different. And sometimes I do not even ask all the same questions in each of the interviews. So, you are the 85th person and then Alan. Alan, I actually interviewed him a little bit when he was at Westchester University, but he was, it was 30 minutes and then he had to go to dinner with us. And so, then that so-
(End of Roseann Chic Canfora’s Interview)
(Start of Alan Canfora’s Interview)
1:53:58
SM: The first question I want to ask and first off, thanks again for agreeing to be interviewed. What was it in your personal background? You are growing up years in the (19)50s. Was there something that happened in your life that made you become an activist? Was there something even before what happened at Kent State?
1:54:51
AC: I think I became a compassionate person because of my father and my mother. They were both World War II veteran my father lost his right eye in an accident in the Philippine Islands at age 19 when he was in the army, and he then went into a hospital, ultimately Battle Creek, Michigan, where he met my mother, she was an Army nurse. My father became a union organizer and leader starting in the 1950s, that your aerospace in Akron where he was a union worker at Goodyear. He became active in the liberal movement as a union organizer and activist. But then he went on to the Barberton city council as a democratic City Councilman in 1964. I think I gained some compassion from my mother, who was a nurse, and political activism from my father, who was a union organizer and a liberal democratic politician.
1:55:47
SM: How did you pick Kent State? Did you were you thinking of other colleges or knew was that the one was always on your mind?
1:55:54
AC: Well, I went to Kent State because it is nearby in my hometown of Barberton and where I still live. It is about 13 miles to the east. And most of my high school friends were all going to Akron University, which is about maybe five miles away. So, I wanted to get away from my high school friends, and they wanted to go someplace new. So, I really chose Kent State also, because I had attended some basketball games there. While I was in high school on some high school, regional and district championship basketball games. I thought it was a beautiful campus and a lovely little city. And that was another reason I chose again-
1:56:35
SM: What was your major there?
1:56:37
AC: Well, I started out as a prelaw major, and then I transferred into education and business. I made a few changes concerning my major and then I finally ended up with a bachelor's degree of general studies. No major.
1:56:56
SM: Besides your parents, who were obviously role models, did you have any political figures or historical figures from your readings in high school or that you really looked up to? Like that may have been mentors as well?
1:57:11
AC: Can you repeat the question please?
1:57:13
SM: Were there, when you were in high school or when you were young, were there any other mentors like either historical figures or political leaders or people you read about when you were young that inspired you?
1:57:24
AC: Well, no doubt John F. Kennedy, President Kennedy inspired me. My family visited Washington. Soon after he was elected. Around 1961, we went on a vacation to Washington, and we stood outside the White House, and we idolized President Kennedy, before and after he was assassinated. But I think his assassination in particular, had an impact on me to follow in my father's footsteps. Later on, that my dad became a city councilor in 1964, shortly after President Kennedy was killed, and I always paid attention to politics. For example, in 1957, my earliest political memory is kneeling at the side of my bed praying, that Adlai Stevenson would defeat Dwight Eisenhower for president in 1956. [oh my gosh] Actually, yeah, and because my dad was always a Democrat, and I can remember he was watching the presidential conventions in 56 and 60 and 64. So I was always very political minded. And I really prefer the democrats greatly over the Republicans, always My father always said to me that the worst democrat is better than the best Republicans. And I took that to heart. I just kind of idolized the Democratic politicians. But on the on the literary side, I also started reading a lot of Edgar Allan Poe, when I was around in the seventh grade. And so, I read a lot about Edgar Allan Poe, and I read a lot about his life. And I always thought that I would like to be a writer. Try to write in the style of Edgar Allan Poe. And so, I was fascinated by his style of writing.
1:59:08
SM: When you think you know, this is mostly a lot about the boomers and the (19)60s and (19)70s. But, you know, the boomers when they were in their elementary school years, it was the (19)50s. And was there something during the (19)50s besides your parents now, how important was television in your life? in those early years when you were in elementary school, particularly with the television shows there were so many westerns on television at that time? Well with the good guy and the bad guy and the bad guy was always being the Native American or the Indian. But then we had Howdy Doody and the-the Mouseketeers. Was there anything- it almost seems like, and I liked your perception on this, that it was children were so protected by their parents during the (19)50s. Even though we were going through the Cold War, it seemed like such a happy time. Your thoughts on that?
2:00:03
AC: Yes, I think the (19)50s were very enjoyable years for my family. My father had a very good job as a union worker at goodyear, he had a good paycheck and good health benefits. We were living in a house that my parents were buying downtown Barberton, the backyard was a double size compared to all the other lots in downtown Barberton. And so, we had a huge backyard, where we were constantly playing baseball, and football and then we would go down to the playground to play basketball during the fall months. So constantly, we were playing sports. Now at the same time. We did spend a lot of time indoors watching television, and also going to the movies, the movie theater was only about three or four blocks away, it cost a nickel or a dime to get in. And we had walked down there, the streets in Barberton and were very safe to just walk around everywhere. It was a town of about 33,000. It was most industrialized city in Ohio per capita, a lot of factories, and most of my friends or parents or fathers worked in factories as mine did. So, it was an idyllic childhood. Really, I have no complaints whatsoever. But we go to the movies all the time. And I can remember seeing the movie High Noon and a lot of monster movies and a lot of cartoons, very enjoyable weekends going to the movie theaters, but during the week we watch a lot of television. Yes, we watched the Mickey Mouse Club. I remember in the (19)50s and (19)60s also watching a lot of Band Stand, American Band Stand, which stimulated by music, my interest in music and my parents always had on the radio WHAR radio in Akron, which is where Alan Freed had his radio show broadcast his first rock and roll program on the radio. In fact, he coined the term rock and roll. And my parents were very much into rock and roll they loved it. They would often jitterbug around in the living room. My parents were good dancers. And so, we just had constantly had music playing we had the TV on but in particular, I think the Mickey Mouse Club stands out a lot of cowboy TV shows but also, American Bandstand. We love to watch the young people of Philadelphia dancing on TV. And that was a lot of fun.
2:02:15
SM: When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
2:02:20
AC: Well, in the early (19)60s, I remember before the Beatles we had a lot of the American bands, would refer to the girl groups, the Shirelles, the Shangri La's, bands like that. We used to sit there in my junior high school classes. We would go to lunch, and they would play music at noon, and the girls would go on the gym floor dancing around to this music. And I just remember, you know, starting to take an interest in girls, I was very popular in school I along with my sister, we were both in the major Work Program, which was for the intellectually advanced classes, the gifted program they call it, so we went to the same schools with the, you know, the regular students who were all our friends and my sister was very popular. And so, as I and we have, you know, we have participated in school functions, I was always on different sports teams and, but I played baseball professionally, I was the captain of the Little League All Star team. One of the best players in the league, I was not only on the all-star team, but I was the captain of the all-star game when I was 12. And then I, I played Little League Baseball when I was 10, 11 and 12. And then when I was 13, 14 and 15, I play what they call senior Little League Baseball. I was by the time I was 15 for that league, I was also the captain of the all-star team there. So, I had leadership skills. I look back on it. Now of course, I am a political leader in my hometown. I am the chairman of the Democratic Party for the last 17 years. But I think I really did learn my leadership skills as a baseball player on the baseball diamonds. I remember I remember a lot of playing baseball, attending elementary school, junior high school, the I remember the launch in elementary school, the launch of the satellites and the Sputniks and all that that really created a big interest in my mind concerning science. And I had a great interest in that all through my school year, as well as both during-during junior high, then the Beatles, of course came when I was in ninth grade the British Invasion of music and that had a big impact on the instead of letting my hair grow a little bit long I think 1964, (19)65 trying to copy the Beatles and of course, we listened to all the Beatle albums, we knew all the words and everybody was just fascinated by the British music but also when the Rolling Stones started playing I started gravitating more liking the Rolling Stones more than the Beatles and that was kind of unusual in my hometown. Everybody else heard the Beatles. I kind of like the bad boys and the Rolling Stones.
2:04:46
SM: Is there is there one specific event and I remember I said ask this to your sister yesterday and-and I know that what happened on May 4th is probably the most, the biggest event in your life but when you think of, is there one specific event in your life that had the greatest influence on you before what happened at Kent State?
2:05:10
AC: I cannot think of one, Steve No, quite honestly, I think it was just kind of, I am trying to think of the proper word here. I mean, I had a very colorful and eventful life, a very enjoyable life. I Just cannot think of one, no.
2:05:29
SM: One of the things over the years and you have watched television, you are up to date on politics. In 1994, when Newt Gingrich came into power, and republicans came into power, I can remember him commenting on the (19)60s in the (19)70s, and really attacking the entire boomer generation, he loved, he loved to do that. George Will done quite often in his written articles, anytime he can get a shot back at the boomer generation. And basically, what they are saying is that the breakdown of American society all happened because of what happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Regarding the drug culture, problems between blacks, blacks and whites in America, the lack of respect for authority, all the break or divorce rate, permissive society, not trusting anybody in positions of responsibility. So, your comments on the Gingrich’s and the George Wills who, anytime they have a chance they are going to shoot back to that period and really condemn the boomers.
2:06:33
AC: Well Steve, I understand perfectly what you are saying, of course, you are referring to the culture wars,
2:06:36
SM: Right?
2:06:38
AC: People, these conservatives, these republicans, they love to rewrite history, in a distorted way, they are revisionist, in the worst sense of the word. They can focus on the negative aspects of the (19)60s. And I know David Horowitz is the lead cheerleader in that regard. But I would like to point out that we also had in the (19)50s, in the (19)60s, gross racism, sexism was rampant, homophobia reigned supreme, those were primitive years in our culture. And for some people in the 1950s and (19)60s, it was starting, I think, with Elvis, and starting with rock and roll in the (19)50s, that young people started to take a stand and blaze their own trail. And this really perturbed conservatives and people like Newt Gingrich and people like George, well, it wish- it was still Ozzie and Harriet in America forever, but those days are gone. People stood up, people blaze their own trail, they started listening to their own music, wearing their own clothing. And the young people in particular, led the way in forging the new cultural traditions in America. And the people that prefer the old 1930s, (19)40s, and (19)50s, the primitive conservative religious culture, those years are gone. And they are upset about that. And they always complain. And it is too bad for them, because those years are gone forever. Now, you did ask me about one event that did change my opinion in the 1960s. And I do remember, you kind of caught me off guard there for a moment, but I would like to say what I think entirely changed my path was, as I mentioned, I always watched the convention, the political convention. Not much the republicans but the democrats starting in 1956, (19)60s, (19)64. Well, let me say, Steve, in 1968, when I was sitting in my parents living room on Newell Street in downtown Barberton, and I was 19 years old. I was I had just finished my first year of college, and I was watching the Democratic Convention. And I saw 1000s of students beaten in the streets of Chicago. Live on television, I was shocked. I was appalled. I knew there was going to be a demonstration there I read about in the newspapers. But I was completely overwhelmed with anger. When I saw those Chicago policemen crushing the skulls of the young boys and girls in Chicago, I will never forget the feeling that I had that. I knew at that moment, I was going to join those protests, I was turning against the war in Vietnam, in a very slow way, in an evolutionary sort of way. During my first year in college, another significant event, yes, I do remember this one. I was sitting in one of my first political science classes as a freshman. And the professor was talking about the war in Vietnam almost every day and in a negative way he was he was against the war in Vietnam. And so were several of the students in the class. Most of the students in the class were like me just sitting there listening, trying to absorb this new information, which we never considered before, antiwar opinions and believe me when I was in Barberton, until I graduated from high school, I never heard a single person object to the war in Vietnam, not one. And I was for the war in Vietnam. I totally supported our troops and the government. I never thought for a minute the government would do anything against the interests of our people. That was how naive and trusting that I was because of my upbringing. With my mother and father both being World War II veterans, loving our country and loving the military, I was not against the military or government at all. Until my freshman year when I started hearing, my political science professor and some, a few of my fellow students are passionately arguing against the war. And one day this this one young kid in the class said, during his opinion statements he was making that day, he looked around the classroom and he goes, for example- [audio cuts]
I will never forget that moment. And I was, I felt days, because I had never considered whether or not I was going to make up my own mind about Vietnam. I love my government, the newspapers, my teachers, my parents, I let others think for me until that day, and I really was done. I remember, I walked out of that classroom after the class was over, I walked out to my car, which was a 1957 Chevy. And I sat in my car for about 15 minutes. in kind of a dazed state, thinking, oh, my God, I have to think for myself, I have to make up my mind about this important issue of war in Vietnam. I was thinking about my friends who were over there at the time, my schoolmates, my baseball, fellow baseball players and others who were in Vietnam at that time. And that was 1967 in October, I believe. I was greatly changed by that one particular day in my political science class, where I realized I had to start thinking for myself. And then from there on out after that, after, during the fall of (19)67, the winter of (19)68, going into the spring of (19)68, I was evolving, slowly, letting my hair grow longer, still listening to a lot of rock and roll music, and starting to change my opinions about the war in Vietnam. In 1968, in August, when I saw the Democratic Convention, that was it, that was the that was the determining factor, which really compelled me then to decide to join the antiwar movement. And as fate would have it, the next month after the Democratic Convention was when I moved into the dormitory on the Kent State campus, a campus address in Johnson Hall. And two weeks later, I did join the campus SDS.
2:12:21
SM: Very well put, it leads right into my next question. And if you were, I asked this to your sister yesterday too. If you were in an auditorium at Kent State University, and with a with a group of boomer generation, student people who had gone to college at that particular time from all over the country. So, it is not just Kent State, it is that students from other parts of the country. And do you, they were asked what is the one event that may have shaped their lives more than any other? And this is thinking outside the box even beyond you, what would you think most boomers would say?
2:12:59
AC: I say they probably say the war in Vietnam. I think they might, they might say the assassination of President Kennedy. Well, and I really do believe my own heart. I think it was the assassination of President Kennedy. That event does stand out. Also, as far as your earlier question. I remember, I was in ninth grade, I was sitting in my Latin class at Highland junior high school, November 22, 1963, when suddenly the loudspeaker came on. Without any introductory comment by the school officials. It just went right to a radio broadcast from Dallas, Texas, announcing the President Kennedy had been shot. And then a few minutes later, then President Kennedy was dead. My Latin teacher, Mrs. Barker, burst into tears in front of our class, she was sitting at her desk. And she said to our class, you young people, remember this day, she says, I have seen things like this before in the past, she goes, suddenly history changes, events change, politics changes. She says you do not know what is coming. She goes, I do not know what is coming. But she said, I think this is going to mark a great change for the worst for our country. And she was sobbing. [wow] So that had a big effect on me when I was sitting there at age 15.
2:14:22
SM: When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes? And what would you believe was the watershed moment?
2:14:29
AC: The 1960s? I would say two things. The assassination of President Kennedy and the Chicago convention of 1968. [agreement]
2:14:38
SM: Describe the qualities that you, you are a boomer but obviously you-you have seen your generation as they have grown older, because now the oldest boomers are 62 years old, hard to believe first year that some of them are getting Social Security. What do you think are the some of the greatest strengths of the boomers and what are their weaknesses? If you were to look at the generation?
2:15:02
AC: I think some of the strengths of the baby boomer generation include the courage that our generation showed to take the stand against the primitive conservative morality of our parent’s generation. You know, we respect our parents, we respect their generation, because they survived the war. They survived the Great Depression. They triumphed in World War Two, but at the same time, they clung to a conservative, religious, primitive, backward morality. And I think we resented that. So, we had to show courage and blaze our own trail, with new music, new culture, new clothing styles. And so that required a great deal of courage. And we paid a price for that, especially those of us who grew our hair longer and took a stand against the government about racism or the war in Vietnam. Very often, we suffered government or police repression. And still, we persevered. And so, I think that is another good trait of our generation, we have great perseverance in the face, in the face of great opposition from the government, from the church, and from the police, and the military. We persevered, and we stood strong against racism, against poverty, against the war in Vietnam. And I really think that the achievement of our generation stopping the war in Vietnam, I do not think I exaggerate. And I do not know how many people agree with me, but I think it was probably one of the greatest achievements in the history of the twentieth century, when you think about it, the power and the might of the greatest military operation in the world, the United States government military, that the citizens of our country brought that to a stop, we stopped the military draft, we stopped the criminal war in Vietnam. I think that is a tremendous achievement of the 1960s generation, but often overlooked in history books. But, of course, because the history books are generally written by conservative individuals trying to preserve the old order. But I think that stopping the, I think, also the civil rights movement of our generation, in particular, our African American brothers and sisters, they deserve a great deal of credit for taking a stand in the streets of the South, especially where there was such fierce and violent opposition people like Martin Luther King, people who were from the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, the white students who supported them and the Students for a Democratic Society. That is the group that I joined, at Kent State, I think so these organizations and these leaders and these individuals stood strong. And it made a huge difference in the history of our country. Can you hang on a second Steve? I have got a call; let me call you back after I get off.
2:17:49
SM: Do you have my phone number?
2:17:50
AC: Yes, I do.
2:17:52
SM: When we were talking last time, you were answering halfway through a question on the strengths and weaknesses of the boomer generation. You had just talked about their strengths in pretty much detail. What are some of the weaknesses within the boomer generation in your eyes?
2:18:08
AC: You mean nowadays or back then?
2:18:10
SM: Back then and if you are disappointed in, let me get into the next question after that, which is, have you been disappointed in, in the boomer generation as they approached now senior citizen status?
2:18:25
AC: Well, I think one of the weaknesses of our generation back in the day was we had youthful excesses, both politically and socially. And culturally, basically, because we were blazing a new trail of our own, without any kind of a serious precedent within memory. We made a great break from our parent’s generation, even though we were anti fascists, as they were like, for example, during World War Two, our parents’ generation took a very principled and proud stand against fascism. Unfortunately, some of us well, we had to do the same thing during the Vietnam War. And when our government was going in a criminal wrongful direction, and we had to take a stand against our own government, we thought our government was becoming fascistic. So, we took a stand against them. And I think we did that very well. We helped stop the war in Vietnam. And we helped to bring great changes socially and culturally in our country, and politically. But I think, among those weaknesses, because we were blazing a new trail, and we did not have any kind of a previous example to build upon. I think there were some excesses with drug abuse, which is regrettable. We had learned the hard way we were, one friend of mine said we were kind of like a bunch of guinea pigs back at that time. And we had to learn the hard way sometimes about that stuff. And I think there was some excesses in that regard. And also, I think, politically, for example, some of the tendencies were a bit extreme in the political movement, the anti-war movement because we were too idealistic, which is natural for younger people to be excessively idealistic, but it was, had some bad effects. For example, the Weatherman and the some of the other political tendencies were a bit extreme and out of the mainstream and did not build a mass movement, did not unite broadly with the masses of the people and I think it is regrettable. And other examples of that, but I think for the most part, our generation, I think the plus, the minus the, far outweigh the minuses. moment, hang on, I have another call.
2:21:04
SM: Okay. We finished with that particular question, or that-
2:21:09
AC: was finished with that part. But I was going to talk about the current feelings about our generation nowadays.
2:21:15
SM: Yes, definitely.
2:21:17
AC: I think that, as our generation matured, unfortunately, many of us forgot the lessons of Vietnam, and left behind our activism that we felt so passionately during the Vietnam War, once the war was over too many from our generation, regressed politically and socially, socially. And seems that too many of us just took a stand once against the war in Vietnam and did not remain politically aware and active. That is one big regret that I feel. But at the same time, even though we did elect a progressive president, like Barack Obama in 2008, I think it was very shameful that our generation chose George W. Bush, as a president to represent the baby boomer generation for the first time. That was a very regrettable choice. Too many people from our generation were deceived by the republican lies and propaganda. And they fell into a big trap by George W. Bush and our country paid a very fair price. But that was one great regret that I feel about our generation.
2:22:15
SM: How do you respond to people who say when well, the reason why the Vietnam War really ended was because mothers and fathers in the Midwest realize that their sons, sons, and few daughters are coming home from war in caskets, as opposed to and lessening the role that college students played in ending the war. And your comment on the role that college students actually played in this. You know, against the war itself. And if they played, what was the major reason why we the war ended?
2:22:52
AC: [Cough] well sure I think that college students played a huge role. But not the only role. It was true that there were businesspeople against the war, mothers against the war, grandmothers. a broad range of people oppose that war. And that really, that is a broad movement did help to end the war. But I do not think you should emphasize one segment of the antiwar movement over the other, except to say that among the students, it was our generation during the war in Vietnam that protested more vigorously than any other generation in American history, there is no doubt about it, that the-the peak the pinnacle, the high point of student activism occurred in May of 1970, for example, when the national students break occurred, after the Kent State massacre and Richard Nixon's invasion of Cambodia, almost 5 million students protested, over 800 colleges and universities shut down. And it was a tremendous tidal wave of protests that swept across the country, forcing Nixon not only to pull the troops out of Cambodia within six weeks, but also to help to bring the war in Vietnam to a more hasty conclusion. So, I think it is wrong to minimize the role of students, but it is also wrong to exaggerate that role and say that it was the only segment of the antiwar movement.
2:24:08
SM: I do not think I asked before but I, I, I talked to something like Boomer friends, even in the past year, and they still feel that the most unique generation in American history, they have not changed, even up to age 61, 62. And, of course, when I was on the college campus, I was on a different campus then you were. there was this feeling of the unity of togetherness that we are one that we can change the world. And there was a feeling that there was a uniqueness within this generation, your feelings on the attitudes that boomers had about being unique number one than and whether they were unique. Number two.
2:24:46
AC: I think that is true. For example, among the counterculture movement, the hippies, the longhairs. These were young people that were really trying to rebel against the old order, against the government against the war. Against conservative morality. And I think as a result, we were under attack by the government, and by the conservatives and older people who misunderstood there was a serious generation gap. We were under attack by the police and the government. So, it is kind of forced us to circle our wagons and feel a great sense of brotherhood and sisterhood. And I think that was one of the most beautiful aspects of our earlier time together as a generation. So, I think that that is definitely true.
2:25:31
SM: You mentioned already about that one of your disappointments in the boomer generation was their inability to carry on their idealism into as they got older. And, of course, a lot of it. You know, some people always say that that is always takes place in any generation, because of the fact that, you know, as you get older, you do not have as much energy or time. But barring that, what-what are your thoughts on the impact that boomers have had on their kids, and now grandchildren, because now 85 percent of all the college students are actually the sons and daughters of generation Xers, which are those born after (19)64. And it is the next generation sending their kids to college. But there is still about 15 percent, who are boomers who hit children late. So, there is still a lot of Boomer parents, but mostly they are heading into grandparent hood, just your thoughts on the impact they have had on them with respect to activism and sharing the experiences they went through and seeming caring, caring like they had when they were young? Just your thoughts?
2:26:38
AC: Well, I think first of all, it should be pointed out that many people from our generation continues to be progressive, not everybody abandoned their youthful idealism. For example, quite a few people from our generation became union leaders, Democratic Party officials and activists, leaders in the fields of journalism and computer science. And so, in the news media, so I think our generation continued to have a very broad impact, not everybody abandoned their political ideals. And I think in a positive sort of a way, we have changed the world. Now as for the younger generations of children and grandchildren, I think that does. For example, we are not nearly so conservative politically or morally. Religion, for example, does not dominate our culture, as it did back in the 1950s. And (19)60s, many people are rejecting the conservative force, morality, their religion tried to foist upon people wrongfully. And so, I think you can see that now, throughout our culture. For example, in Ohio, one out of every six citizens now say that they are not religious at all. And so, I think you can see that the-the legacy of the 1960s is a very profound and very positive, I think, in our society. And that has got to have had an effect, there must have been an effect on the children and the grandchildren.
2:27:57
SM: So, a lot, you know, depending on who you talk to a lot of colleges are very proud of today's college students, millennials, because they are somewhat, sometimes they compare them to the World War II generation, which was they kind of shun over the boomers and the silent generation. And that is because the current college students have already been interviewed by whatever, high school or whatever, and they want to leave a legacy. But they, the one question that comes up is that they want to leave the legacy when they are 40. Not when they are 21. They want to raise kids get a job. But they do care about other things. And of course, the boomers at that when they were young, they wanted to do it immediately. I do not know if you have any thoughts on that.
2:28:41
AC: I was like Jim Morrison used to saying we want the world we want to know that is how we felt back at that time. We were impatient because it was our generation that was under attack and Vietnam and by the military draft and by the police, and the government. But we did want to change we wanted it quickly because we were literally under attack. Now as time passed by the Vietnam War ended, and the government mellowed, and the people of America became more accepting of the counterculture and people that maybe looked or acted a little bit differently. So, I think that times have changed, and I think they have changed for the better.
2:29:16
SM: This is some question I want to read to you because it has to deal with the issue of healing. Do you feel boomers are still having problems with healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, divisions between black and white divisions between those who support authority and those who criticized it, divisions between those who supported the troops and those who did not? We know the wall in Washington DC for the Vietnam Memorial has helped the divisions within the Vietnam veteran generation. But there is still a question about whether it has done much for the nation itself. Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to their grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking After 40 years, or is the statement Time heals all wounds the truth? I say this Alan because we took students to see senator muskie before he passed away about a year and a half, when I was working at Westchester University, and we asked this very same question to him thinking that he will talk about 1968, the Democratic Convention and the tremendous divisions and he paused for about a minute. And then he responded by saying, it is we have not healed since the Civil War. And he went on to explain the divisions between North and South and the-the coming together and Gettysburg and how they never really truly healed. Do you think there is a problem with healing within the boomer generation? Or am I just imagining this?
2:30:47
AC: Well, I think it depends on how you look at it. My perspective is there has been a great deal of healing. For example, nowadays, you see very few people who are still hardcore, pro Vietnam War, who think that we could have won that war, we should have won that war, although there are a few of those people. Based on my experience, after over 10 years now of having my own internet websites, and having quite a few people contact me by email, I think I have my hand on the pulse pretty good here. Very well, here. Rather, there are still a few conservative Vietnam veterans who remain very angry. And I think those people probably never will become deals. On the other hand, I think the vast majority of Vietnam veterans, in the vast majority of people who mistakenly supported that war in Vietnam, I think very few of those people still hold to their wrong ideas. Most people now understand the war in Vietnam was a terrible, tragic error, that are 58,000 of our young people died for no good reason, and that it was avoidable, it should not have happened. So, I think there has been a great deal of healing and many people who support the war in Vietnam. In fact, I think most people who supported the war, and who supported President Nixon now see those events and those conservative people who were pro war as wrong. So, I think there has been a great deal of healing. But on the other hand, amongst some hardcore conservatives, and you do find some people in the modern Republican Party, and the conservative movement who are revisionist in their thinking, they always try to rewrite history in a wrongful way they tried to exacerbate or exaggerate the divisions and keep those divisions alive. But I think most people are doomed to failure.
2:32:27
SM: It is interesting, because Barney Frank, you know, the congressman from Massachusetts, wrote a book, maybe about in the mid (19)90s, called “speaking, frankly”. And in that book, he said, the Democratic Party was basically destroyed back in 1972. When McGovern ran for president, so many people split, and they have gone a different direction. So, when we talk about the boomer generation, and the and the issues there, we can also talk about the Democratic Party and what happened to them, because most of them-
2:32:57
AC: Well, I think that is a good example. But again, I am more optimistic. I think if you look at 1972, which was a fiasco, because George McGovern was not part of the mainstream. And his ideas were a bit to do now. And he obviously did not appeal to very many people in America, and he was suffered a serious landslide. At the same time, he was the victim of the Watergate crimes of that era. And if those crimes have been exposed more thoroughly, earlier by the news media, and the government and others, immediately, McGovern would have won. But at the same time, I would like to point out that many people from our generation did get active in the Democratic Party, even though some of us including me, were alienated from the democratic party after 1968 because of the serious tragedy that occurred at the Democratic Convention there in Chicago. But some of us eventually evolved back into the Democratic Party. And I think we have resuscitated that party to the point now that we have a- an African American president who is very openly progressive. And we are now having a great impact on the world. I think it is very clearly because the baby boomer generation took charges from the Democratic Party,
2:34:06
SM: Good points.
2:34:08
AC: I know I have in my own hometown; I am the chairman since 1992.
2:34:12
SM: That is very commendable, because you have continued to be you be an activist and also to be involved in politics and voting. And then and that is obviously a very big plus. You are an example to many young people. Two of the qualities I would like you to respond to is that the quality of movements which is part of the boomer generation, all those movements that took about kind of use the civil rights movement as a as a role model, because you have the antiwar the Native American Chicano gay and lesbian movements, the women's movement and the secondly the issue this is a very important thing is the effect of trust. The seams it is my feeling that the-the boomer generation was a very distressful generation because of the way the leaders had lied to them. Not only During the time they were of college age, but even before with President Eisenhower lying on national television to 59, about the U2 incident, which was really a big news item, no one could believe that he lied. Then, of course, we all know about the Gulf of Tonkin with LBJ Watergate with Nixon, some of the revolution revelations even about Kennedy in later years about the overthrow of regimes around the world. And then we get into Reagan and Iran Contra and all. And now even recently with George Bush and weapons of mass destruction. So, these are examples throughout the boomers live from the time they were basically in elementary school. And the reason, I am asking this question, Allen is the fact that oftentimes psychologists will say that the ability to trust is a very important quality that we must have in a person to be a success in life and to be a successful society. Your thoughts on whether the boomer generation is a very distrustful generation? And have they passed this distrust onto the children and grandchildren?
2:36:06
AC: Whether the boomer generation is a distressed generation-
2:36:10
SM: No, a lack of trust generation-
2:36:16
AC: lack of trust generation-
2:36:17
SM: Yes.
2:36:17
AC: It means that our generation does not deserve to be trusted-
2:36:19
SM: No-no-no that they are not trusting anybody else. And they think it is true.
2:36:23
AC: I think that is true. You know, we were we were raised up, for example, I was born in 1949. And I was raised up in the 1950s, which was a very idealistic time, of high employment, low poverty, there were plenty of jobs and healthcare for most people. And it was a time of rock and roll and Elvis Presley, and there was no war going on. So, it was a very idealistic, hopeful, positive time to be raised. But then in the 1960s, we saw the ugly side of American modern history, the ugliness of racism, sexism, homophobia, police brutality, war in Vietnam. And our government was turning in a criminal way toward being involved with excessive repression against minorities and others. So, we felt that we were betrayed, we have because we were raised up to have great hope in America, we felt that we found what we became of age in the 1960s, what are their hopes were betrayed? So that was why we took a stand. And I think Ever since then, you look around now you see very few people who have blind faith in their government, you know, was our generation that started that trend, I think nowadays is a very healthy thing, not only in America, but in any country, for people to look at the government skeptically and to question the government, especially their policies, because we have learned the hard way that they are mistaken policies have a drastic effect upon the common people. And whether it is the war in Vietnam, or recently, the abuses of Wall Street, which are now causing widespread suffering and unemployment and poverty, I think that our skepticism has been warranted.
2:38:06
SM: Truly interesting, if you look at some of the journals, a lot of people are fearful that Obama is going to become the next LBJ in Afghanistan, he is going to continue to bring troops in and he is never going to admit he is wrong. [right] You think there is a possibility that he could be, you know, another LBJ even though we lost love them in terms of, you know, there is-there is that possibility there.
2:38:34
AC: Yes, it is, But I think Obama is smarter than that. And I think people are going to be generally surprised when he brings peace to Afghanistan and Iraq soon and brings our economy back to life and we have national health care. I think Obama is going to be seen as a new Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
2:38:49
SM: How do you look at the music of the era because the musical obviously was very important. You hear it on the radio today, and you hear constantly on TV advertisements. I, I interviewed William Earhart a couple weeks back, you know, the great Vietnam poet, Vietnam veterans against the war leader and everything. And he took me to the back of the room. And he wanted me to read this small article. He is a teacher, at a school outside Philadelphia, and the article was a member of the birds who said, I will refer two of the members of the birds wanted to sell their music for car advertisements. He refused, he refused. And he said, even the musicians are betraying us now because of the fact that they are selling all their music to corporations. And they were the musicians that were the role models for the generation of the boomers. Just, your thoughts on the music of the (19)60s and the music of the boomers, whether it be the (19)50s, (19)60s or (19)70s and how important it was in their development as individuals and human beings. And you might want to talk about even the art that was going on in that era too.
2:40:02
AC: Well, the art, the especially the rock and roll had a tremendous impact politically and socially on our generation. In fact, I have always said that it was the rock and roll and some of those songs that inspired our political activism and even our militants, which helped to end the war in Vietnam. So, I do not think that is regrettable, and I think the fact that we mixed culture with politics is was one of the finest factors about our generation. As for some of the people selling out or selling their songs to make money, you know, some of these people have bills to pay and kids in college and health expenses. And I have never really thought it was a problem when they sold their music for TV commercials and cash down a little bit. Because I think that their intellectual property does have value and they need to have that value recognized. So, I do not really have a problem with them being compensated for their labor that way.
2:40:54
SM: When you listen to these three quotes, which do you think better defines the boomers or do you think they are they all in their own lane define them? Peter, Max used to have a poster out all the time that was on I know, it was all over Ohio State when I was there in graduate school in the early (19)70s. And the words where you do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful. The second? [I remember that] Yeah, the second quote, obviously, is Malcolm X by any means necessary. And that was out there long after he passed in 1965. And the third one we all know after Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. He had said it in Indianapolis, but he had also said in many other places, it was a Henry David Thoreau quote. And that is, some men see things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not? What I listened all three of those I, I see individuals that I knew back in the (19)60s and (19)70s, your thoughts on those three quotes, and if any one of them better defines the boomer generation?
2:42:00
AC: Well, it depends on which aspect of our generation you are talking about Malcolm X, I think spoke very eloquently for those of us who felt that we had to take a stand against our government, by any means necessary. And sometimes we were even compelled to pursue militant protest actions, because the government was not listening to peaceful protests. I think Malcolm X was the flip side of the coin. And on the other side was Dr. King who offered the peaceful solution. Our generation tried to pursue many different paths, but all trying to reach the same goal, which was peace and love. Peter, Max spoke for the-the love the hippie generation, the hippie side of our movement, the counterculture of people just trying to be groovy trying to be peaceful trying to come together. But sometimes people feel differently that gets people to get frustrated people who knew that just by waving the two fingers in the air, giving the peace sign and hoping for peace and love that that was not going to work without some kind of a militant stand, because the government itself was militant, pursuing a genocidal war in Vietnam, which killed 2 million Asian people. Those people became the victims of our military machine. Some of us could not stand idly by and just wave the peace sign, and hope and pray that the government would stop the war because that did not work. So, we had to turn to a slogan like Malcolm X's slogan, which really many of us took to our hearts. I know I did. And so, I think all of those statements spoke to the dichotomy as we saw it. We were torn, you know, we wanted peace and love. But we were again, like we said earlier, we were impatient. And so, we tried to do all those things. And even Bobby Kennedy, I s think spoke for the-the idealism of our generation, which even goes back to the earliest centuries of America. People always have high ideals and high hopes and dreams. But sometimes you have to take a stand and pay a price. Bobby Kennedy paid a price. Malcom X paid a price. And we did at Kent State but still we had those ideals. And those dreams, which were sometimes very costly, and we had to pay with the price of blood.
2:44:03
SM: Very well said, what do you think the lasting legacy of the boomers will be after the last Boomer has passed away? I remember in reading about when the last civil war veteran died, they have a statue in Gettysburg. And I thought when I first went there years ago, I said what are the statue here? This he was a last person who fought to get us. Well, they actually had a program about it around the time after he died, talking about the lack of healing, but so what are your thoughts on what do you think the legacy of the boomer generation will be as time passed-
2:44:38
AC: I think will be seen as the greatest generation in American history. I disagree with Tom Brokaw and other conservatives who try to say that the World War II generation was the greatest generation. I think, you know, it is true, they did survive the depression and they did help stop fascism and Japanese imperialism. But on the other hand, look at the look at their legacy after that. They were the generation in the greatest the war in Vietnam, they were the generation that tried to prop up racism in the 1960s. And, and other backwards traditions in America, racism, homophobia, damage to the environment and other negative aspects. So, I think that it was our generation, that made a serious break with those wrongful traditions and-and we had to take a stand against that so called Greatest Generation. And we helped stop the war in Vietnam. And we brought down Richard Nixon. And we helped to bring an end to some of these backwards tendencies in our politics in our culture. So, I think in that regard, I am very confident. And I am contented to say that ours was his greatest generation.
2:45:41
SM: Getting back to you know, President Kennedy, because we I was just listening to the inaugural speech. And of course, Today is November 22, which is 46 years ago, he passed away. And you gave very eloquent comments, the last time I spoke to you on the phone about the impact this had on you and your teacher when you were in ninth grade. But when you look at that inaugural speech, I encourage you to look at it again Allan, and some of the comments that were made, and ask not what your country can do for you, and what you can do for your country. And then all the comments about that. We will-we will go anywhere; we will help anyone. You know, there is some mixed messages even in his inaugural and now that you can reflect on it. So just your thoughts on President Kennedy and what his-his role here and obviously, the Peace Corps was very important. But you know, how did he shape the boomers just his presence?
2:46:43
AC: I think he inspired our generation, and no doubt about that. And his assassination left us with a great feeling of anguish, which caused us then to begin to awaken about the situation with our government and the situation with politics. Because many of us to snap out of the stupor, that was the inevitable result of being raised in this country and the soporific 1950s. So, he paid a very dear price. And our generation as a result, I think, began to wake up and snap out of it and pay attention. And his words, were always foremost in our minds, when he said, ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country, we started to-started to get a sense of obligation, that we had to take a stand that our generation had a role to play. And so, I think that we always revere his memory in our hearts. I know I do, especially on this day, November 22, when I always pause and remember that tragedy, which I will never forget, in 1963, when I was only 14 years old. So, we revere his memory. And I think his-his tragic death, and also the example set by his brother, Bobby Kennedy in 1968. I think that whole identity impact is a very large part of the inspiration of our movements for peace and justice. And in the 1960s-
2:48:12
SM: Yeah, 46 years ago, and this happened on a Friday, and it was around 1:30, then East Coast time that we found out about it. And of course, it was beautiful skies, just like today. The weather. That is the irony. It is not always that way. What were some of the books that that you read in some of your peers read in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s books that may have influenced you writers, whether it be fiction or nonfiction?
2:48:37
AC: Well, I think the one writer that influenced me, the most that inspired me the most was Albert Camus. In particular, his book called The Rebel, I read that book, and it really caused me to see the world differently, and to see my role in a more clear manner, I knew that I had to take a stand and I think above all the philosophers that did impact me at that time, it was Albert Camus. Also, Friedrich Nietzsche. Nietzsche talked about the great noon and the need to destroy the old morality and the old order that had a big impact on me. And I know my roommates, some of them were reading jack Kerouac, and some of the beat poets and people like that. But also, I think the philosophers from our generation Tom Hayden had a big impact on us. So, we read the [inaudible] report, we knew about the call to action from Mr. Hayden and the SBS, student activists, leaders, and also people like Martin Luther King, we were very aware of his writings and his philosophy, but also Malcolm X on the other side of that same coin. So, I think we had a broad range of people that did impact us at the time-
2:49:49
SM: any of your friends read the greening of America by Charles Wright.
2:49:53
AC: And he wrote after it came out after the 1970 shootings right after right, we all read that of course, I think it did. have an impact that helped us summarize the positive aspects of our generation and the impact that we were having on the society.
2:50:07
SM: And another book was Theodore Roszak the making of a counterculture, which was another eye opener in the late (19)60s.
2:50:15
AC: I have that book now. But I did not read it at that time, but I read it afterwards.
2:50:19
SM: I am for the section of the interview now where I just want you to respond to various personalities of the period and or terms. And of course, you know, I asked this to everybody but and I know I have already said this, but what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
2:50:39
AC: Well, I have studied the history of American student activism. So, I am aware that it was the Kent State and Jackson State tragedies, following the invasion of Cambodia that sparked the only national student strike in US history. So, on the one hand, I feel a great sense of anguish about the tragic loss of life. Alison Krauss, Jeffrey Miller, Sandy Scheuer, Bill Schroeder, also games all green and thought is killed down there at Jackson State, but I cherish those memories. But at the same time, I looked at May of 1978, in Jackson State as a reason to be proud it was the time when our generation by the millions, almost 5 million young people on our campuses across the country took a serious stand against our government, some of us paid a very big surprise with life and was blood. But I think it was a shining example of how our generation was willing to take a stand.
2:51:36
SM: Well, my famous picture that [inaudible] family took of you with the flag, which everybody in the world has seen. If you could just describe I know you have done in your books, and you have done it in your speeches, and you do a great job of that. But that that time frame, that very short timeframe, and when you walk up that hill, to Taylor Hall, and then walk past the, the metal structure on the left and down the hill, and, and then all of a sudden, the cracks of the guns. How often does that come back to you? And you know, just just-just your thoughts.
2:52:19
AC: Oh, it comes back to me all the time. I cannot avoid that issue. I have two websites where I am constantly getting email messages from students, scholars, researchers, and others from across America and around the world. I am not trying to escape my obligation to history, I have always felt that I have, I have a duty to speak for my friend Jeffrey Miller, who was shot through the head and killed that day and cannot speak for the others. They were silenced forever. And I feel that some of us have to take a stand nowadays for truth and for justice as a way to speak for them. They cannot fly out from the grave; we have to speak for them. So, I have never really tried to walk away from this issue. I have tried to embrace it and address my duty that I feel and to work with many other people to try to bring a semblance of truth and justice. I deal with this every day. But I do not let it consume my life. I am not, as some conservatives have tried to say, stuck in a time or nothing about this tragedy. I have a life way beyond May 4. I am the chairperson of the Democratic Party. I work for the government; I have a 40 hour a week job. I spent a lot of time helping democrats defeat the dastardly Republicans. So, I have a full life. I am not one dimensional by any means. But at the same time, I refuse to just walk away from my obligations that can say-
2:53:40
SM: very good, Alan. What is the wall mean to you? The Vietnam Memorial.
2:53:46
AC: I think it is the most beautiful, powerful Memorial in Washington, I have been there several times. It has a great emotional impact on anybody who has a heart. If you go there, and you walk down towards the center of that gash in the earth, and you see the 58,000 names, I think inevitably has to have a powerful effect on you. You see the reflection, you see your own face, though you realize you are still on this earth. While those 58,000 are gone. They have paid a very dear price, and that is a beautiful memorial and attribute to their memories.
2:54:19
SM: What does Watergate mean to you?
2:54:23
AC: Watergate was the exposure of the criminality of the Nixon administration and the I think it is a reminder of the general tendency of the republican party ever since. You know, it was Richard Nixon, who initiated the concept of dirty tricks in politics. I know politics has always been dirty down through the years, but it seems to be having become institutionalized in the republican party ever since.
2:54:47
SM: James Rhodes.
2:54:49
AC: James Rhodes was the criminal governor of the state of Ohio back in 1970. It was his rhetoric. The words that he used that inspired the Kent State tragedy, blood remained on his hands until he died and now, he is, as a result burning in hell forever.
2:55:04
SM: No, it is interesting Alan. Now I lived in Ohio and Gilligan was governor and I am shocked that state voted him back in.
2:55:13
SM: Rhodes was the master of manipulating the people of Ohio. He had his hand on the pulse very well, I will say this. He was a master politician. But at the same time, he was only a high school graduate, he did not really have done college. He was basically a country bumpkin who had the great gift of speaking and talking to common folks’ language. I do not think he would ever have a chance of getting elected now in the modern age. But back at that time, he was a really a reflection of it backwards. Thinking of too many Ohioans
2:55:45
SM: How about the counterculture, hippies and hippies.
2:55:50
AC: I have mixed memories about the counterculture, the hippies and the hippies. I think that there were excesses. And there were there was too much idealism, and too much wasted energy. I wish that we had been more enlightened, and more focused and more effective
2:56:06
SM: Students for democratic society and the weathermen.
2:56:10
AC: I think the students for a democratic society is one of the greatest organizations that ever existed in America. It was a broad ranging group, which encompassed everyone among the student generation, which included pacifist, anarchists and everybody in between. They pursued a wide range of tactics from peaceful tactics to militant, I think basically, they responded to the tragedy of Vietnam. They also opposed racism and, and damage to the environment, and the oppression of women and other minorities. So, I think I am very proud that I was a member of SDS. And I think I SDS remains a very misunderstood organization.
2:56:49
SM: How about the Vietnam Veterans against the war? And then the Americans for freedom, which was the conservative group against the war?
2:56:57
AC: What is the second group? You mentioned?
2:56:58
SM: The Americans for freedom?
2:57:00
AC: You mean the young Americans for freedom?
2:57:03
SM: Yeah, young Americans for freedom? Yeah, yeah.
2:57:05
AC: The Young Americans for freedom was a basically an outgrowth of William F. Buckley in the conservative movement in the 1960s. And they were very backwards and primitive in their ideology trying to defend the old order. And I think they were widely discredited. And that is why they do not really exist anymore. On the other hand, what was the other group you mentioned? I am sorry, I got distracted YAF-
2:57:28
SM: The Vietnam veterans against Vietnam veterans against the war.
2:57:30
AC: Yeah. That was a very principled and proud organization, which still exists. Those were veterans of the War [audio cuts]-
2:57:42
SM: Testing one two [audio cuts]
2:57:50
AC: Ring home that inspired the students and the others in America to take a stand against the war. Those veterans saw the war, they knew how long and how horrible and awful the world was in Vietnam. And they compelled us to take action. And they joined us in the frontlines of the movement. So, I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration. Still, for the Vietnam Veterans against the War-
2:58:13
SM: I think I lost the first two lines because they had to change my tape. But I think, I do not know if you remember what you said. Anyway, yeah, you got it. Okay. I am going to get into some personalities here. And you know, Jane Fonda-
2:58:29
AC: Jane Fonda is a misunderstood individual. I think she had good intentions, but she did some things that she regretted. She went to Vietnam and posed on that anti-aircraft battery. And she was, I think, typical of many people from our generation two excessively idealistic, because she did make some mistakes. But basically, I think her heart was in the right place. And I wish them more Hollywood stars and other famous people have taken a stand like hers.
2:58:57
SM: Well, if you go to the Vietnam Memorial, she is the one person that seems, and no one ever forgives most of Vietnam-
2:59:04
AC: I was there-there and I saw that they had a bunch of those stickers there. Those bumper stickers, Hanoi, Jane and all that. And I had a big discussion with some of those Vietnam veterans, about her and about Vietnam. And when I was discussing Vietnam and Jane Fonda with a bunch of those pro-war, Vietnam veterans, those conservative Vietnam veterans there in Washington, crowd gathered about 100 people gathered around as we had about a 60 minute discussion, really, and by the end of it, I had those conservative Vietnam veterans shaking my hand because I explained to them about Kent State and why some of us had to take a stand and ended up shaking my hand. I think maybe they might have seen Jane Fonda in a different light after that day.
2:59:45
SM: [Agreement] How about Tom Hayden?
2:59:48
AC: Tom Hayden was one of the greatest heroes of the 1960s he wrote for here on stage and he helped to found SBS. And he helped them lead the movement against the war in Vietnam but also against racism against blacks. Ain New York and elsewhere, and I think Tom Hayden is one of the great, great heroes of the 1960s-
3:00:08
SM: had a brand-new book out again too Amie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin.
3:00:15
AC: I think there was a Crown Princes of the 1960s antiwar movements. They were basically I think, anarchistic comedians, I do not think that they were so effective politically as they could have been if they, if they have been less idealistic, and more realistic. I think the Yippies were correct in their enthusiasm against the war, but wrong in many of the tactics that they use, which were counterproductive.
3:00:43
SM: Timothy Leary.
3:00:46
AC: Another example of the idealism of the 1960s I think his heart was in the right place. But encouraging people to experiment with LSD i think is regrettable. I think that he did inspire our generation, though, to question the government and to question our reality as it existed, but encouraging the use of LSD I think is wrong
3:01:09
SM: the Black Panthers and I say, again, I mentioned about six people here, which is Eldridge Cleaver, cannot link cleaver, Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Angela Davis, that group.
3:01:22
AC: I think they are very inspirational for the African American population in our country. They started things like the free breakfast program, which is now instituted by our government across the country. They encouraged African Americans to take a stand of defending their neighborhoods, I think that was a good thing because the neighborhoods were under attack. If the Black Panthers were not effective, they would not have been subjected to the cruel repression, the deadly repression by the government. The government saw them as a legitimate threat. And they were, they were revolutionary. They wanted to change America drastically. And they succeeded. Rather than have the data very depressed, including all the people that you mentioned, they all spent time in jail. Some of those people then went bad let people like Eldridge Cleaver ended up becoming a conservative pro government person. I think that was regrettable. But-but the rest of the activists have all remained very principled and proud and stayed active in the movement.
3:02:17
SM: About Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern.
3:02:21
AC: I supported McCarthy for a while 1968. But I think then later, he played a bad role when he continued to oppose Bobby Kennedy, he should have stood aside gracefully and allowed Bobby Kennedy to easily have access to the Democratic nomination. So, I think that was wrong of McCarthy. He stayed in the race too long then. And afterwards, he just seemed to be a frustrated man. But I think Eugene McCarthy should be recognized for his great courage and taking a stand against Lyndon Johnson during the Vietnam War. During that time period-
3:02:53
SM: And George McGovern-
3:02:55
AC: George McGovern, I have mixed feelings about George McGovern, on the one hand, he was victimized by the crimes of the Nixon administration in the Watergate scandal, think he could have been a good president. But afterwards, I think McGovern to me, I do not think has played such a good wall through the years. I know at Kent state he came and spoke in 1990. While we had 40,000 people protesting in the rain, nothing against the reduced Memorial at Kent State which was reduced by 93 percent. It was a national controversy. And McGovern came in and just acted like it was business as usual. And he regretted the protesters. I do not have very good feelings about George McGovern right now.
3:03:33
SM: The nonviolent protest movement and I give you two examples. The scene of Stokely Carmichael standing next to Martin Luther King, basically telling them Your time has passed. That is a historic picture and Martin Luther King has his arms folded, you can sign attention and the other one was the debate that Malcolm X had been about three months before he was assassinated with Byard Rustin, who was of you know, worked with Martin Luther King basically telling him that Your time has passed, challenging me, you know, the civil rights leaders of the era, which were Whitney Young, James farmer, Ray Wilkins, Byard, Rustin and Martin Luther King, you know, your time has passed your thoughts on Moses.
3:04:16
AC: I think people like Stokely Carmichael, and Malcolm X had a tremendous impact on the nonviolent civil rights movement. For example, I think it was the pressure from people like Stokely Carmichael and Malcolm X that caused Martin Luther King eventually to take a real strong stand against the war in Vietnam. Personally, I think that was why Martin Luther King was assassinated, because he was becoming very powerful and it was broadening out his impact beyond the civil rights movement, and the government had to kill them.
3:04:45
SM: Yeah, Yeah, Martin Luther King and Malcolm were my next to people here. You are just your-your thoughts on them.
3:04:53
AC: Martin Luther King and Malcom X? [yeah]. I think there was a great American patriot way. They loved America enough to take a stand to try to change it. they pursue different tactics and different strategies. But I think together they made a powerful team and had a tremendous lasting impact. And that is why they were killed. Sometimes in America, if you take too strong of a stand if you become too much of a threat to the government, they feel they have to kill you. And I really do believe that government killed both of those individuals.
3:05:23
SM: Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew.
3:05:26
AC: That is quite a dynamic duo. Both criminals. Both admittedly, criminals. One of them went to jail. The other did not. I think it was unfortunate that Nixon escaped prison time. If President Nixon was jailed for his crimes in office, I think then we might have not had Ronald Reagan committing his crimes with the Iran Contra scandal, Reagan should have been jailed. George Herbert Walker Bush his illegal actions. And also, George W. Bush. These were all criminal republican presidents that all escaped prosecution, and they all should have been sent to prison, in my opinion, and I do not say that lightly. I know that is a serious charge. But at the same time, unless we have these people paying a price like Nixon should have better price than other presidents will be a bit Cavalier with their own criminal activities, thinking they also will escape punishment. For example, in recent years, George W. Bush is clearly an international war criminal. He has killed hundreds of 1000s of people with his wrongful policies in Iraq, Alone women and children, old people, and others. And he has escaped prosecution as well. This is wrong this has to stop.
3:06:41
SM: This gets right in then to Gerald Ford comments on Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan.
3:06:52
AC: Gerald Ford, had to pick up the pieces from the damage of the Nixon administration, I think Gerald Ford was put into a tough situation. Although he was not exactly the brightest intellect in the history of our presidents, he surely was not very bright. But then unfortunately, Jimmy Carter followed and was relatively ineffectual he had economic problems he had to scandal, the hostages in Iran and followed by Ronald Reagan. So that was a really difficult period of our country where we went from bad to worse went from Nixon to Reagan. And I think our country suffered as a result.
3:07:32
SM: One thing, your thoughts that Ronald Reagan used to always say, well, we are back it was really a slap at the (19)60s in the (19)70s. Because he could, we are bringing him we are bringing America back, we are bringing, we are going to the military is going to be stronger, and that that may have been okay, because even the people in the military realize there was something wrong. And then when George, George Bush Senior came in, he said, The Vietnam syndrome is over. So, both Reagan and Bush Senior, you know, had very strong comments, really on an era.
3:08:06
AC: Well, that is traditional for conservatives to try to rewrite history. For example, it was Richard Nixon, who first talked about the ending the Vietnam syndrome, Ronald Reagan declared it to be dead. But still, if you look at Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, this is a time period during the late (19)70s, early (19)80s, where there was serious talk of bringing back the draft. Well, they could not do that, because the American people would not stand for that. So that is the positive legacy of our generation. We stopped the military draft, and it has not been resumed ever since. So, they cannot destroy the Vietnam syndrome. The fact that there is no draft proves that the Vietnam syndrome is alive and well. Also, we have not had another war like Vietnam ever since Vietnam. During Vietnam, we would lose 6000 gives me, sorry 4000 of our soldiers in a six-month period, we would lose over 400 soldiers in a week, sometimes, we have not had a war like that ever since Vietnam because the American people remember Vietnam, Vietnam syndrome is still alive. We remember the legacy of the war in Vietnam and our antiwar movement. So, we do not have a draft and we do not have another war like Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan are nothing compared to Vietnam. We started to see the level of casualties as we saw during Vietnam. Again, we would have another antiwar movement just as strong. So, when Nixon, Reagan and George HW Bush or George bush tried to announce that they are back and the conservatism is a reigning Supreme, while there is only so much that they can do because the legacy of Vietnam remains alive and well-
3:09:36
SM: Lyndon Johnson and Hubert Humphrey.
3:09:41
AC: I think they were both decent men, a good Liberal Democrats who tried to do the right thing in certain regards with social policies, but their tremendous failing their Achilles heel was Vietnam. Lyndon Johnson suffered to the point where he had to withdraw from the 1968 presidential race and the remains a very haunted man until his death, haunted by Vietnam and Hubert Humphrey similarly suffered because he was so closely linked to LBJ, even though they did try to bring some racial harmony in our country and provide a transition as President Kennedy promised to do. I think they tried to be good liberals that way. But Vietnam proved to be their albatross-
3:10:24
SM: Barry Goldwater and Robert McNamara.
3:10:30
AC: Well, there is two different guys there. Barry Goldwater, of course is the father of the modern conservative movement. And he but even Barry Goldwater moderated in his later years, and he was not as frightened as some of these very errant conservatives that we have now. Like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and the Fox TV network. So, I think Barry Goldwater was a very principled individual, and he was proud to be a conservative, and I think he was an honest man. Later on, he saw the dangers of modern conservatism, and he condemned that he made a break from that. So, who was the second person you said against-
3:11:09
SM: McNamara, Robert, who just died-
3:11:12
AC: Another tortured individual who was haunted by Vietnam to his grave. And McNamara to his credit, did tried to distance himself from the war in Vietnam and from those policies, and he admitted that they were wrong. I think that was had a tremendous impact on the healing that our nation needs.
3:11:30
SM: Daniel and Philip Berrigan.
3:11:33
AC: Great heroes of the movement, religious men who proved that they tried to be like Jesus and trying to bring peace and understanding and healing to the world. And they paid a price for that, just like Jesus said-
3:11:49
SM: George Wallace.
3:11:50
AC: George Wallace was a strident conservative, a racist, openly, 1968 he helped to draw attention to the conservative right wing racist movement. But he failed and inevitably proved to be a failure in-
3:12:08
SM: The Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65.
3:12:12
AC: Mario Savio and those guys out there in Berkeley were great heroes. They inspire the 1960s student movement greatly. They had a great impact on future generations of students, I think, even to the present day today, defending the First Amendment and helping to spark the antiwar movement later. The students of Berkeley were great heroes even though they paid a dear price.
3:12:33
SM: The beats like Galen Ginsburg, Jack Kerouac, Neal Cassady, Ken Kenzie, Ed Sanders are happening in that group.
3:12:43
AC: The beats inspire the Ken Ekezie 60s movement. Of course, they blaze their own trail, they were younger, before we were, and so they took a stand against conservatism and apathy. And they helped to awaken the 60s generation. Those guys were very cool
3:12:58
SM: And then in the women's movement, which is Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, Betty, for Dan, the list goes on and on. Some of the female leaders-
3:13:11
AC: Very courageous women are sisters, and they help to blaze a trail, which provides many benefits now for women all across America. The women's movement remains alive and well, of course, and that is how it should be. I am a great supporter of women's rights and freedoms. I was always inspired by those women, although I will admit and my own opinion, and not just in the women's movement, but I think in various movements from our generation, there were excesses and they were, there was extreme idealism and political correctness. And I think sometimes that is regrettable.
3:13:45
SM: Dr. Benjamin Spock.
3:13:48
AC: Dr. Benjamin Spock, a great hero, took a stand against the war in Vietnam, even though he could have just continued to be popular, maybe book doctor and lived a nice, comfortable life. He paid a price for his activism, and he was correct to take such a principled stand against the war in Vietnam.
3:14:08
SM: John Dean.
3:14:09
AC: John Dean’s another courageous man who stand to bring truth and feeling to our country at the time of Watergate.
3:14:24
SM: TET [referring to Tet Offensive].
3:14:25
AC: TET, 1968 especially as remembered, although it is an annual holiday in Vietnam, 1968 was the period where the Vietnamese Vietcong basically took a stand all across South Vietnam and helped to awaken the American people that we were not winning the war that the light was not at the end of the tunnel that there was no real end in sight, and that it really did help to inspire the antiwar movement here as well-
3:14:50
SM: How about the ERA that did not quite succeed, but women were trying in the (19)70s. Their early (19)70s.
3:14:56
AC: Regrettable, that it did not become a constitutional amendment. I supported the era Just as I always support women's rights and freedom. I think However, even though that amendment was not passed, still the-the impact of that attempt, and the women's movement is still very strong today and women are enjoying great rights and freedoms. Of Course, they always have to be defended, because those are always under attack by the conservative movement.
3:15:21
SM: The individual or groups that you felt were the greatest musicians that had the greatest impact on the boomer generation-
3:15:27
AC: I think that clearly it was the Jefferson Airplane, Jimi Hendrix, the Grateful Dead. John Fogarty and cleared Creedence Clearwater Revival bands like that. I think they had a tremendous impact on our generation. They helped me to stop the war in Vietnam-
3:15:44
SM: April 30, 1970, the Nixon speech about the invasion of Cambodia.
3:15:54
AC: Very provocative and controversial, basically an invasion of Cambodia. Although Nixon denied it was an invasion. That was the event that triggered the four days of protests at Kent State which culminated in the massacre. But it provoked a revolt all across our country. Richard Nixon grossly miscalculated the impact. He-he knew there would be an impact he knew there would be a price to pay. But he totally miscalculated and misunderstood the fact that he would trigger the only national student strike and US history.
3:16:27
SM: Down to pretty much toward the end here. Allan what do you feel are the best books on can stay. I know that we have talked about this before that some you really do not like, I know that Michener wrote a book right away. That was well known. I.F stone had a paperback that came out. There is the one I just mentioned that I just found out about. There is the breath. And Peter Davies wrote one on Kent state, but in your opinion, and in the opinion of your peers, you know, the students that were there, what are the ones that they feel is the best book on Kent state.
3:17:02
AC: Peter Davies wrote a very good book in the early 1970s. I think it is failing- is that it was early and there has been a lot of evidence has come out ever since. But Peter Davies very courageously attacked the cover up of murder at Kent State, he joined with Reverend John Adams of the United Methodist Church. And he put out that book the truth about Kansas State, which was very helpful and pressuring the government to create a federal grand jury, for example, which did occur in 1974. Another good book was Joe Keller, our attorney, he wrote a book called the Kent State cover up, which was published around 1989 or (19)90 or so. And it was a very good book, dealing with the file and the evidence that occurred from the court case. So that was an excellent book did deal with a lot more of the evidence that Peter Davies did not have access to a lot of the testimony that came out on the court and the investigations. But even these books did not focus on the order to fire enough, which I focused on in my own research. And which causes me to think that the books that I am going to be coming out with will be the best books about Kent State that have ever been written. My roommate from 1970, Tom grace, was a PhD in history also is coming out with a new book about the history of the Kent State student movements in the 1950s through the 70s. [Excellent] He is going to focus a lot on 1970 something his book will be very credible. Also. I.F stones book was very good. It was basically his rant against the cover up of murder, very good. And there has been a few good books, some mediocre books and some terrible books.
3:18:41
SM: Where do you put Michener’s book?
3:18:43
AC: Michener’s book I would say is either mediocre or poor. He has been exposed as fabricating many of his quotes or misquoting many of his sources. His book was very early. In fact, it was the earliest book of all, so it suffers from that flaw. There has been a great deal of evidence that is come out ever since, but Michener did a good job of talking about the four victims or martyrs, talking about the kinds of people that they were and about their last days. They did a good job that way. But when it came down to his final conclusion that there was no order to fire and that was just an inevitable tragedy, and he did not focus enough on the National Guard and their criminal shooting of the students. I do not put the blame myself on the triggerman so much now as they do on the officers and Michener, basically let the officers off the hook-
3:19:30
SM: Your thoughts on john filo? Oh, that courageous student photographer I interviewed him for the book and being called into that. And he his story is unbelievable. And Marian [inaudible] the 14-year-old who just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Your thoughts on both of them not only about the experiences that they both gone through, but you have known them your whole life. Just your thoughts on them.
3:19:57
AC: Well, I love both of them dearly. John, Marian My dear friends, hang on a moment, I have another call.
3:20:05
SM: Okay. What was the question about john Filo and Marian Becky?
3:20:13
AC: So, I think they both played a great role in history. That photograph is one of the most famous photographs ever. And on the one hand, it has helped John Filo’s career but on the other hand, it has a Mary Vecchio and unforgettable icon, and she has had to pay a price for that. With social ostracism, sometimes and unwarranted criticism. She has healed very nicely from that, and they have become good friends. And they both come back to Kent State on a regular basis to help raise awareness about the 1970 tragedy. So, I admire their courage and not only refusing to turn their back on the situation, but also trying to help other people understand.
3:20:58
SM: I know I have been trying to interview Marian Becky, and she hasn't responded to me, but I hope I eventually will be able to get her interview a phone number. Yeah. Oh, no, I do not have her phone number. But I have emailed her so many times. And so, I do not have a phone number though.
3:21:19
AC: I will email you her phone number, if you remind me-
3:21:20
SM: Okay, great. And one final thing, and I know you are going, is there a question that I did not ask that you thought I would have asked in this email?
3:21:28
AC: Or you were very thorough, Steve, I have no. I cannot think of another question.
3:21:34
SM: Okay. Could you email me also, Dean Taylor's email address and Joe Lewis, I would like to interview them?
3:21:43
AC: Email me to remind me, Stephen. I will do that-
3:21:46
SM: Have a great day Allan and continue doing what you always do. Yep. Take care. Bye now.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Alan Canfora and Dr. Roseann Chic Canfora
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Canfora, Alan ; Canfora, Roseann Chic ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Educators; Kent State Shootings, Kent, Ohio, 1970; Canfora, Roseann Chic--Interviews; Political activists--United States; Library directors; University of Akron. School of Law. Library; Canfora, Alan
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Dr. Roseann "Chic" Canfora is an educator. She received her Master's degree in Journalism and Public Relations at Kent State University, where she also earned a Ph.D. in Educational Administration. Currently, she is a Chief Communications Officer at Cleveland Metropolitan School District. Dr. Canfora is the sister of Alan Canfora and an eyewitness to the Kent State massacre on May 4, 1970. <br /><br /><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Alan Canfora is a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora is an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a bachelor's degree in General Studies and master's degree in Library Science. Currently, he is the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":8403713,"3":[null,0],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,4995385],"15":"Arial","16":10,"26":400}">Alan Canfora (1949-2020) was a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora was an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a Bachelor's degree in General Studies and a Master's degree in Library Science. He was the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio.</span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2009-11-22
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.63a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.63b ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.63c
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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201:57
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/20765625b8424ed532fb0c759d83ff08.pdf
715d1177d2755f4287b92d9e284a103c
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMTON
UNIVERSITY
D E P A R T M E N T
MASTER'S RECITAL
ASHLEY MAYNARD,
MEZZO -SOPRANO
Julie Williams,
Soprano
· S uN
n
od
v ea
m
22, y
b
2009
e,
r 2
3:00 p.m
Casadesus Recital Hall
�PROGRAM
Selections from "Alcina" ..... ................ George Frederic Handel
Mi lusinga ii dolce affetto
(1685-1759)
Verdi prati
Ègelosia
g
L'Heure exquise ............................................... Reynaldo Hahn
(187 4-1947)
Nell Op. 18, no.1 ..................................................... Gabriel Faure
((1845-1924)
Adieux de l'Hotesse Ara be ............................. ... Georges Bizet
(1838-1875)
Selections from 17 Polish Songs, op. 74 .......... Frederic Chopin
2yczenie (A Maiden'sWish)
(1810-1849)
Smutna Rzeka (Sad River)
Pose› (The Messenger)
Leci þÿli[cie
z drzewa (Leaves Are Falling)
INTERMISSION
Four duets from Op. 63 .... ............................. . Felix Mendelssohn
Abschiedslied der Zugvogel
(1809-1847)
Gruß
Herbstleid
Maiglockchen und die Blümelein
Selections from Cabaret Songs .......... ....... ..... William Bo Icom
Over the Piano
(b. 1938)
Places to Live
Toothbrush Time
�TRANSLATIONS
Mi lusinga ii dolce affetto
(The Sweet Affection Enchants
Me)
The sweet affection for my
beloved enchants me.
But who knows? I must fear
of making a mistake by falling in
love again.
But if she were to be the one
I adored and then abandoned,
then I am unfaithful, ungrateful,
and a traitor.
Verdi prati
(Green Meadows)
Green meadows, charming
woods,
you will lose your beauty.
Lovely flowers, flowing streams,
your charm,
your beauty, soon will change.
Green meadows, charming
woods, you will lose your beauty.
And, the loveliness (having been)
transformed,
Everything in you will return to the
horror of its former appearance.
Ègelosia
g
(It's Jealousy)
It's jealousy, the power of love
that causes you anguish
and makes your heart ache.
But I suffer from it too.
For a lovely face, you sadly sigh ;
we are full of resentment
and we all love without pity.
L'heure exquise
(The Exquisite Hour)
The white moon shines in the
forest, from every branch comes
forth a voice under the foliage,
"Oh beloved!"
The pond, a deep mirror, reflects
the silhouette of the dark willow,
in which the wind is crying:
Let us dream, 'tis the hour!
A vast and tender calm
seems to descend from the
firmament, which the orb clads in
rainbow colors;
'Tis the exquisite hour!
Nell
Your purple rose in your bright
sun,
0 June, is sparkling as if
intoxicated;
Bend your golden cup also
toward me:
My heart is just like your rose.
Under the soft shelter of a shady
bough
a sigh of pleasure rises up:
More than one ring-pigeon sings
in the
remote wood,
0 my heart, its amorous lament.
How sweet your pearl in the
flaming sky,
star of the pensive night!
But how much sweeter is the
bright light that shines in my
charmed heart!
The singing sea, all along the
shore,
will silence its eternal murmuring,
before in my heart, dear love,
0 Nell, your image will stop
blossoming!
�Adieux de l'hotesse arabe
(Farewells of the Arabian
Hostess)
Since nothing holds you to this
happy land,
neither the shade of a palm tree,.
nor yellow corn ,
neither rest, nor abundance,
nor seeing beat at the sound of
your voice the youthful
breasts of our sisters, whose
dance,
like that of a hive of bees, crowns
the evening hills,
Farewell, handsome traveler.
Alas!
Oh, why aren't you one of those
who limit their lazy feet
to their own roofs of branches or
canvas!
Who, dreamers, listen to stories
without making any,
and sit by their door in the
evening,
dreaming of flying away to the
stars!
Had you wished it, perhaps one
of us, young man, would have
liked to serve you, kneeling ,
in our huts that are always open .
She would have lulled you to
sleep ,
and made a fan of green leaves
to chase away the flies from your
brow.
If you don't come back, think
sometimes
on the desert's daughters, softvoiced sisters,
dancing barefoot on the dune.
Handsome young white man,
lovely bird of passage, remember,
for perhaps,
oh rapid stranger, your memory
remains in more than one of
them!
Zyczenie
(A Maiden's Wish)
If I were the sun in the sky,
I would shine only on you.
I would pass blindly over the
meadows and grass,
but would shine in your window
forever if I were the sun.
If I were a little bird from that
forest,
I wouldn't sing in any foreign
country.
I would pass over the meadows
and grass,
but would sing at your window
forever
if I could change into that little
bird.
Smutna Rzeka
(Sad River)
River, flowing from the mountains,
Tell me why your waters are
swollen?
Is it the snow thawing
and flooding your banks?
The snow lies unmelted in the
hills,
and flowers hold my banks firm.
At my source sits a mother
sorrowful and weeping .
Seven daughters she bore and
loved,
seven now lie buried.
In death they know night nor day,
they lie, facing east.
Waiting in pain by their grave, she
tells her sorrow to their spirits.
And her unceasing tears flow,
swelling my waters to a flood.
�Poset
(The Messenger)
Dew lies on the meadows,
the winter days are changing .
You, faithful bird, are again before
us, singing.
With you, the sun shines longer,
with you there is the pleasant
spring;
Welcome from the journey,
joyful singer!
Don't go, wait!
Maybe you are begging for seed?
Maybe you bring a new song
from distant lands?
You run, you look around
with your dark eyes .. .
Don't look so happy,
she is not here!
She went after a soldier,
she threw him a hat
by the roadside shrine
and said goodbye to her mother.
Maybe she was running away?
Tell me, bird, are they hungry,
is it good for them in the world?
z drzewa
Leci þÿli[cie
(Leaves Are Falling)
Leaves are falling,
where once the tree grew free .
Now there sits a wild bird
calling by a grave.
0 forever and ever,
Poland is good.
Everything fades like a dream,
and your children are in the
grave.
Cottages are burned,
villages destroyed,
women lament,
homeless in the fields .
Men have fled
from family and friends,
crops shrivel and die,
and are left untended.
Young men gather
to defend Warsaw's walls,
Poland begins to rise
from the darkness.
Fighting through winter,
and summer heat.
Then came autumn
to thin our ranks.
Now the war is over,
our toil expended in vain .
The fields we once tilled
remain empty.
Some lie buried,
some languish in prison,
some wander in exile
homeless and hungry.
Heaven has not helped us, and
neither did the hand of men.
The unsown fields turn to waste,
and nature's gifts are nothing.
Leaves are falling,
and more leaves thick and black.
Oh Poland, cherished land,
see how your sons are
slaughtered for you,
They worked at guarding the
land,
and now suffer and die for
Poland.
Fight with all your strength,
fight for your freedom!
There are traitors in this country,
but there are also those who are
faithful.
Fight with all your strength,
fight in the name of liberty!
Poland belongs to those who are
devoted to this land.
�Abschiedslied der Zugvogel
(Farewell Song of the Birds of
Passage)
How beautiful were the woods
and fields,
how sad the world is now.
Gone is the beautiful
summertime,
and after joy comes sorrow.
We didn't know anything about
trouble.
We sat under the canopy of
leaves,
happy and gay in the sunshine,
and sang
out into the world.
We poor little birds are so sad .
We have no homeland anymore.
We must now fly away from here
and fly to far off lands.
Gruß
(Greeting)
Wherever I go I look in the field ,
and wood and valley.
From the hilltop on the meadow,
from the mountain outwards,
far into the blue, I send you a
thousand greetings.
In my garden I find my flowers,
beautiful and delicate.
I make many wreaths out of them,
and bind them
with a thousand thoughts and
greetings therein.
But I dare not present them to
you. You are too good,
too fair, and they will fade too
soon.
Love without equal stays forever
in the heart.
Herbstlied
(Autumn Song)
Oh how soon the dancing ends,
changing spring
into wintertime!
Ah, how soon into sad silence
changes all happiness!
Soon are the last sounds
silenced ,
Soon the last singers are flown;
Soon is the last green gone!
All want to
hurry homeward.
Ah, how soon the dancing ends
and joy changes
into longing sorrow.
Were you a dream, you thoughts
of love?
Sweet as spring and just as soon
past?
One thing only will never waver,
and that is Longing , which never
dies.
�Maiglockchen
und die Blümelein
(The May-bell
and the Flowers)
May-bells are ringing in the valley,
they ring so bright and clear:
"So come one and all to the
dance,
you lovely little flowers!"
The flowers, blue and yellow, and
white, all come over.
Forget-me-nots and violets
are among them.
May-bells start up the dance
again and they all dance then.
The moon looks kindly upon
them, and enjoys the scene.
Jack Frost disapproved very
much; he came down into the
valley.
The May-bells danced no more;
away went the flowers.
But the frost had hardly left the
valley, when May-bells called
them quickly again to the spring
festival and rang twice as brightly.
Now I too will stay no longer
inside;
May-bells are also calling me.
The little flowers are going out to
the dance, and I will go too!
�PROGRAM NOTES
Handel's Alcina, an opera in three acts , is based on
Orlando furioso, an epic poem written by Ludivoco Ariosto.
Ruggiero, a knight, is betrothed to the beautiful Bradamante.
He is in love with her, but an unfortunate series of events
puts a strain on this otherwise deeply rooted love.
Bradamante's flying horse (a hippogriff) captures Ruggiero
and lands him on an island in the middle of the ocean. Here,
Ruggiero learns that the island is inhabited by the powerful
sorceress named Alcina. She is a seductress, and entices
every man who lands on the island. However, once she tires
of these men, she turns them into stones, plants and
animals. Sure enough, Alcina lures Ruggiero into her spell,
and he becomes entranced by her ("Mi lusinga ii dolce
affetto").
Meanwhile, Bradamante and Melissa, Ruggiero's former
tutor, have been searching frantically for the beloved. When
they arrive on the island, Bradamante realizes that Ruggiero
has fallen for Alcina, and she becomes jealous ("E gelosia").
Melissa urges Ruggiero to come back to his senses, and
through a magic ring, reveals to him the island as it really is.
Ruggiero recognizes that he has been tricked into love
("Verdi prati"). He looks around at the "seemingly lush"
surroundings, and knows that they, just like his love for
Alcina, are an illusion. He realizes that, when stripped of all
illusions, love changes, and vows to leave the island at once.
Bradamante and Ruggiero smash Alcina's urn, the source
where Alcina's magic was stored . Alcina vanishes, her
former lovers return to their former selves, and all are saved.
�Chopin's 17 Polish Songs
Frédéric Chopin wrote the 17 Polish Songs between the
years 1829-1847. All the texts were from Polish poets, and
most of them were written by Stefan Witwicki, a friend of
Chopin. The pieces within this opus (Opus 74) are divided
into two distinct categories-the romantic and the historical.
Three of the songs on this program are in the personal,
romantic category, and the final piece falls into the historical
time period during the Polish uprising against Russia.
Mendelssohn Duets, Opus 63
Felix Mendelssohn composed these duets for his close
friends to sing while he lived in Leipzig between the years
1836-1844.
The texts were written by Hoffmann van
Fallersleben, (Abschiedslied der Zugvogel and Maiglockchen
und die Blümelein), Joseph van Eichendorff (Gru/3), and Carl
Klingemann (Herbstlied) who was also a friend of
Mendelssohn.
Bolcom Cabaret Songs
William Balcom wrote his two volumes of Cabaret Songs for
his wife and singer, Joan Morris. The librettist was Arnold
Weinstein, who was also Bolcom's teacher. Together, these
people created a work that is witty, charismatic, and allaround brilliant.
�ABOUTTHEPERFORMERS
ASHLEY MAYNARD, a native of Connecticut, is pursuing a Master of
Music in Opera degree at Binghamton University and is a Resident Artist
with Tri-Cities Opera. She is a student of Professor Mary Burgess, and
also works with Duane Skrabalak, Peter Sicilian, and Diane Richardson .
Ms. Maynard graduated summa cum /aude with a Bachelor of Music
degree in Music Education and Vocal Performance from Nyack College.
She has performed with Nyack College Opera, singing the roles of
Giovanna (Rigoletto), Mercedes (Carmen), Carmen (Carmen), and Mary
Magdalene in the sacred opera I Am the Way by Jerome Hines. She has
also sung the Cousin (Madama Butterfly) and First Alms Nun (Suor
Angelica) with Opera Theater of Connecticut. With Tri-Cities Opera, Ms.
Maynard has performed the roles of Giovanna (Rigoletto), Marcellina
(The Marriage of Figaro), the Mother (Amahl and the Night Visitors), Miss
Todd (Old Maid and the Thief), and Siebel (Faust). In the spring of 2009,
she was alto soloist in Haydn's Theresienmesse with the Binghamton
After graduation, Ms.
University Chamber Chorus and Orchestra.
Maynard plans to continue to sing with Tri-Cities Opera, and in
December will be performing the roles of the Mother and Hansel in
Hansel and Gretel.
JULIE WILLIAMS, is a native of South Jersey. Julie began piano
lessons at the age of five, and voice lessons when she was ten . She
graduated with honors from The University of the Arts in Philadelphia, PA
with a Bachelor of Music in Voice Performance in 2006. Julie is currently
pursuing a Master of Music in Vocal Performance from Binghamton
University where she studies with Mary Burgess.
Last January, Julie served as soprano soloist for Haydn's
Theresienmesse. Julie was a member of the Tri-Cities Opera Chorus in
the 2008-2009 season, appearing in Rigoletto, Amahl and the Night
Visitors, 60th Anniversary Gala, and Faust. In the fall of 2006 and
summer of 2007, Julie gave recitals for Arts at Grace Church in
Haddonfield, NJ. She taught voice and piano lessons privately from
2002-2009.
WILLIAM JAMES LAWSON coaches and accompanies singers at
Binghamton University. As a coach, he specializes in English diction for
American and English art songs and the sacred and classical theater
repertoires. He studied at Binghamton University (8.A. 1980), where his
teachers included Seymour Fink and Patricia Hanson in piano, M. Searle
Wright in church music, and Stevenson Barrett in vocal coaching. He
holds an M.A. from New York University (1984) and was one of the first
graduates of New York University's innovative Department of
Performance Studies, an interdisciplinary program in the performing arts.
�♦
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♦
.
Hurry! Only one day left to get your tickets for the...
♦
♦
♦
i.
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Elizabethan
Madrigal Feaste
♦
It is an evening of socially savvy vignettes, startling spectacles and song, :
:roving rapscallions, fabulous feasting and sundry surprises presented by
the musicians and ne'er-do-wells of the Music Department.
Featuring: The Lords & Ladies of the Harpur Chorale, The
Singing Wenches of the Women's Chorus, Her Majesty's Own
Royal Brass, The Skilled Musicians of the Early Musick Consorte,
Actors and other disreputables...
♦
Fri.., December4th &
♦
♦
♦
Ye Olde Union
Sat.,December 5th at 6:30
Hall, Binghamton
p. m.
University
♦
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♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦
♦♦♦♦♦♦
♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦
♦♦♦
�Binghamton University Music Department's
UPCOMING EVENTS
Thursday, December 3rdJazz Mid-Day Concert with Tony Kadleck,
trumpet co-sponsored by the Harpur Jazz Ensemble and the Binghamton University
Department of Music}, 1 :20 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Thursday, December 3rdHarpur Jazz Ensemble Concert with Tony
Kadleck, trumpet {co-sponsored by the Harpur Jazz Ensemble and the Binghamton
University Department of Music}, 8:00 PM, Osterhout Concert Theater, $$
(FREE for students}
Friday, December 4th Flute Studio and Flute Chamber Concert,
10:15 AM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Friday, December 4th Elizabethan Madrigal Feaste (Harpur Chorale
and Women's Chorus}, 6:30 PM, Old Union Hall, $$
Friday, December 4th Master's Recital: Susan Amisano, soprano,
8:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Saturday, December 5thElizabethan Madrigal Feaste (Harpur
Chorale and Women's Chorus}, 6:30 PM, Old Union Hall, $$
Sunday, December 6th Wind Symphony, 3:00 PM - FREE
Anderson Center Chamber Hall
Tuesday, December 8thPercussion Ensemble, 8:00 PM - FREE
Anderson Center Chamber Hall
Thursday, December 10thHoliday Mid-Day Concert, 1:20 PM,
Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Friday, December 11th Holiday Mid-Day Concert, 4:00 PM,
University Downtown Center, FREE
Saturday, December 12th Faculty Fireworks: Winter Winds (with
the University Symphony Orchestra} - a gala benefit concert for the
Music Department, 8:00 PM, Osterhout Concert Theater, $$
For ticket information, please call the
Anderson Center Box Office at 777-ARTS.
�
Dublin Core
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1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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In copyright.
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2 sound discs
Duration
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39:43
23:49
Streaming Audio
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153422">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153422</a>
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Title
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Master's recital, Ashley Maynard, November 22, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-11-22
Description
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Held at 3:00 p.m., November 22, 2009, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Creator
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Williams, Julie Marie
Lawson, William James
Maynard, Ashley
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2009-11-22
Rights
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In copyright
Type
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sound