113
10
1775
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/05a718f47a5e61246fcbd73ad11f5c3e.jpg
101244ed7ce43f2d18df3e769c6cbb70
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a8e1716992cecb828b5d50455cbf8a32.mp3
54556f28c6abec7b683ab8dfcc8a8ba2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2009-12-01
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John S. Baky
Language
English
Biographical Text
John Baky is the Dean of Libraries, Emeritus & Curator of Rare Books and Manuscripts at La Salle University. <span>He earned his Bachelor’s degree in English literature from Gettysburg College, Master’s degrees from Columbia University and Wesleyan University, and a certificate from Harvard University’s Graduate School of Education. </span>Baky was in the Army (1969-1971) and served in Vietnam from 1970-1971 where he received a Bronze Star. In 1980 he joined the library staff at LaSalle University where he founded the Imaginative Representations of the Vietnam War Collection that centered on how the transition of that war played out in the literature. He oversaw one of the most unique Special Collections in the world that oversees 3,500 items that include novels, short stories, comics, photography, poetry, films, music (Bob Dylan Collection is special), videos, TV productions, and graphic arts. Baky, from the outset, had first-hand knowledge of Southeast Asia as a former Army First Lieutenant assigned to the infantry division.
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address; Jungle School; Vietnam War; Veterans; Military Surplus; Students for a Democratic Society; Sexism; Stonewall riots; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; Dwight D. Eisenhower; Robert McNamara; Civil Rights; Benjamin Spock; Jerry Rubin; Gloria Steinem; Daniel Ellsberg"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":2,"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address; Jungle School; Vietnam War; Veterans; Military Surplus; Students for a Democratic Society; Sexism; Stonewall riots; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; Dwight D. Eisenhower; Robert McNamara; Civil Rights; Benjamin Spock; Jerry Rubin; Gloria Steinem; Daniel Ellsberg</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
150:15
Subject LCSH
Librarians; Soldiers; La Salle University; Baky, John S.--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Baky
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Baky, John S. ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Librarians; Soldiers; La Salle University; Baky, John S.--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
John Baky is the Director of Libraries at La Salle University and the Curator of Rare Book and Manuscript. Baky served in the United States Army from 1969-1971,specifically the Vietnam War. He completed his undergraduate work at Gettysburg College. He received a degree in Library Science from Columbia University and a Master’s Degree in Liberal Arts from Wesleyan University.
John Baky is the Dean of Libraries, Emeritus & Curator of Rare Books and Manuscripts at La Salle University. He earned his Bachelor’s degree in English literature from Gettysburg College, Master’s degrees from Columbia University and Wesleyan University, and a certificate from Harvard University’s Graduate School of Education. Baky was in the Army (1969-1971) and served in Vietnam from 1970-1971 where he received a Bronze Star. In 1980 he joined the library staff at LaSalle University where he founded the Imaginative Representations of the Vietnam War Collection that centered on how the transition of that war played out in the literature. He oversaw one of the most unique Special Collections in the world that oversees 3,500 items that include novels, short stories, comics, photography, poetry, films, music (Bob Dylan Collection is special), videos, TV productions, and graphic arts. Baky, from the outset, had first-hand knowledge of Southeast Asia as a former Army First Lieutenant assigned to the infantry division.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.18a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.18b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-14
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
150:15
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/96beb7494bb3b853195d287bb3b6bc81.jpg
e4cdcbb58ea75a688320e9841f41cd4b
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/13a1f59be9541edce86b843d238aaa2e.mp3
dccdab1cb59d2d7cd59c36206e296159
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field.
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2009-12-03
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mandy Carter
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the \"1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005\"."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the "1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005."</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Activism; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Woodstock; Baby boom generation; Voting Rights Act; Civil Rights Movement; Race Relations; Women's Health; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; LSD; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; Free Speech Movement; LGBT"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13689059}}">Activism; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Woodstock; Baby boom generation; Voting Rights Act; Civil Rights Movement; Race Relations; Women's Health; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; LSD; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; Free Speech Movement; LGBT</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
135:15
Subject LCSH
Human rights workers; African American sexual minorities; Carter, Mandy--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Mandy Carter
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So
Date of interview: 3 December 2009
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
SM: Testing, one, two, testing.
0:07
MC: Because what I thought was so unique about the (19)60s that of course, you know, you are running rattling off these names of people. And I do not know about other generations, I guess what did they call the (19)50s? The Beat Generation? And I do not know.
0:21
SM: Yeah, sometimes, you know, the silent generation two or World War II.
0:25
MC: Yeah. But what was intriguing to me is that I thought it was I thought it was interesting. Those of us born too young to be a part of the Civil Rights Movement, but just the right age to be smack dab in the middle of the Vietnam Movement. But what strikes me, Steve, and I am just like, come up in some of your its just the continuity factor of so many of us that when we got involved, we got about the big picture. It was not just only the Vietnam War, it was not only about you know, women's right to choose to it was this broader perspective of equality and justice, and I think that so many of us who are still active, still involved. And in a way, I think the demographics when I last saw when I left saw them that post World War Two baby boomers, roughly 78 million of us and thinking, what kind of impact that can have and it has to be so real I think the Obama stuff, what impact that has on a culture when you have that many people that kind of came from that generation? I am just intrigued by that. And maybe your book might get to the heart of all that is how else do you explain some of the people you are rattling off? That are there are still here and what they believe in is just a constant. I am just intrigued.
1:44
SM: Well you know for me, yeah. So, anyway, one of the things to, what I have made sure that I tried to get the book conservatives in here too, because I interviewed Charles Murray, you know, the Charles Murray and I interviewed Ron Robinson for the Young Americans foundation Ed Filner from the Heritage Foundation, Dr. Lee Edwards, a historian at that group, I have interviewed David Horowitz. And I am trying to make sure, I am hoping that one of the goals of this project is also respect and, and an understanding of that each individual, whether you like them or not, are deserving of integrity. I have always, I have always looked upon the definition of integrity as people who stand for something who are willing to stand up in front of a room and speak to people knowing there might be people out there who are going to disagree or dislike what they have to say, but they have the courage, but they had the courage to stand up for their beliefs. And so, this project could be something that could bring people together, even different opposing points of view politically. So, yeah.
2:52
MC: I totally agree. And I have to tell you, when I think about all the movements that we have all been a part of, and, you know, nowadays, sometimes I think so people busier-busier getting your 15 minutes of fame that they would have no really no integrity. But I remember some of our opposition, depending on which side you go on that, but you have to respect what they believe in. They believed in it, they lived it, they talked it. And-and I am really glad you are going to do that. Because without that it would be to be almost skewed, would not it if you did not include?
3:19
SM: Yes.
3:21
MC: Both sides on that I agree with you.
3:22
SM: And I have been trying, you know, trying to get Phyllis Schlafly. You know, some people say no, because they are busy, but you got to make the effort. And that is what I am trying to do. And I saw the first question because you brought up the fact that you are a perfect example of longevity. And you mentioned some of your peers who have lived this life throughout their entire lives of activism in different areas. But one of the criticisms that we often read about the boomer generation is this issue of longevity and how do you feel about the members of the generation overall, whether they be black, white, gay, straight, uh, or any ethnic group in terms of if they were really committed when they were young, have they continued their commitment into the beginning of I guess old age, 62? Just your thoughts on the generation itself? Are you? Are you do you have positive feelings towards the boomer generation or negative?
4:21
MC: Absolutely positive. In fact, I would almost say that is why I am I mean, I if I was not doing his work as an activist, I would love to be a demographer with people who do demography, people who do demographics. Excuse me. Because I am thinking that one of the constants I think that is really helped me, and of course, this is all before the internet. And now the technology which you could use on this little switch on your computer, you have access to everything, prior to those days. I think a lot of us that were getting involved as is first because you had people who were standing up there to explain a folk singer that started out as a teenager, she is nearly 70, who is still believing what she believes in about nonviolence and is consistent in that. And you see that as an example, and I think for me now, maybe this is, maybe this is the defining factor, maybe Steve, I think for those of us who believe in the concepts of nonviolence, and social change, maybe our style or what we believed in, one reason why I am still doing all this work is because when I was bumping into groups like the American Friends Service Committee, the Quakers, the War Resisters League, they talked about the philosophical underpinning of what we did every single day with equality and justice for all. And when you have that as your philosophical underpinning that it does not matter what the issue is coming down the road, and especially in my opinion, I do not know how you feel about this, but the society has such a short attention span it is like I own at a time, I am only going to do women's organizing. Only going to do the work and Vietnam, I am only going to work on nuclear, you know, disarmament, not realizing that there is some kind of constant that keeps you in the ready. Alert. And again, prepared to say that this is multi issue, organizing and as a woman of color, thinking about the struggles I have gone through as a woman, as a person of color, and as a lesbian. How many times have I been down that damn road? So, when I think about that, and I even now when I go out and do public speaking, I was speaking at a black college here in Durham, and it was some, you know, black colleges where, you know, they do not want to really talk about the gay thing. Now, more students are saying, wait a minute, you know, we know we have got gay folks in our black community. Yeah, it is an issue. But I say to them and long before they were coming after us for being black folk and slaves in this country, who do you think was at the receiving end of not having anything in this country, then it was people of color, you know. So, when you when you when you draw it that way and realize it is about kind of a rights issue, people listen to that differently, I think Steve, and I think young people, there is just an attitude of, you know, whatever, I do not care, even in, even in the black, you know, black folk. When I think of youth, I think they are going to be the ones who really will make a difference. But, but that has been my experience. And I think the other final thing I would say on that is, I think people like collinear, and others, a lot of us are bridge builders. Some people are not bridge builders, but I have always been a bridge builder, and where did I learn that you know, the Quakers and nonviolence and how you have to be in a position to see both sides, be willing to kind of go both places, wherever that might be, and willing to take some risk, willing to take some criticism. I have had black folks say to me, Mandy, you are black. I do not want to hear one word about you being lesbian. Yeah, I have been in the NOW and you know, the National Organization of Women setting where I wanted. I want to hear about you being a feminist. Here one word about you being lesbian. Mm hmm. And I said, I am like you all like, you know, take me or leave me. But you got to take all of me.
8:18
SM: That is interesting, because we did a national tribute to Bayard Rustin. Several years back and in our department, we brought a lot of people into because Bayards from Westchester.
8:28
MC: And I-
8:30
SM: And, uh, and we took I took a couple students down to Washington DC and one of them was the president of the Black Student Union and we went to see Courtland Cox who was a close friend of Byard, Rustin, actually, he was a mentee of buyers, who worked in the Clinton administration and we were sitting down there and I could not feel I thought that these young men, both African American young men knew the Byard Rustin was gay, but certainly this president of BSU did not and when Courtland was talking, he mentioned that he was gay and I could see the face on the leader the of the BSU because he is anti-gay. And, oh my, and I did not know that until that particular moment. And I saw right there the divisions between the black and the gay community and the African American community. So, that was kind of a revelation. And he said, my minister just taught me that it was that it is wrong. So, he was not really a supporter of the conference. And so, and I could see it, I want to ask you a question here. What, what specific event in your young life turned the light bulb on in your head with respect to changing your life direction? I know you went to high school I was reading you went to high school, I think in Schenectady, New York. Schenectady, New York. Yep, I know. Well, because I am from Cortland/ Ithaca area and so, I am from New York State. So, I know and, and some but what was not in your high school years and said this just is not right or, what was what was the turning point that kind of helped to aided in in your career path?
10:06
MC: Well Believe it or not, Steve, it was a, we had a social studies class. And I remember I was like, that is a freshman when it goes freshmen South when you go, how does it go freshmen-
10:18
SM: Sophomore, junior senior-
10:22
MC: So, my junior year, and our social studies teacher brought in someone from the American Friends Committee to talk about AFSC. This is like in (19)64, (19)65. And this one person came in this is the only time I ever met this person came into our class and was talking about the work they were doing down south and the Civil Rights Movement. But when he was talking, I, you know, I had to back up a minute the fact that you are going to maybe call this magic moment is interesting, because you know how sometimes you would something happens to you and at the time, you have no idea the impact it is going to have on your life years and years later. Well, this young man who came in from the American Friends Service Committee talking about the Quakers, um, the work they were doing down south, but two things he said that really just perked my heart and my head up. And that was when he made the comment about the power of one. But you know, we live in a society where basically we are always told every day, there is not much you as an individual can really do. But if you really think about it, each and every one of us has to impact change as a person, the one that struck me, but the other thing he did at the end of the class, because I was like, all ears at that point, you know, I mean, you know, you are sitting up in Schenectady what do you know from nothing? It is you know, GE and you are really detached from the, you know, Vietnam was really was not an issue at that time. But then he said something interesting, he said at the end of the class, and if any of you would like to come for a- one-week high school work camp in the Pocono Mountains, sponsored by the American Friends Service Committee, raise your hand and we will get you there. I raised my hand, and I went, and that one week in the Pocono Mountains of a high school work camp with the American friends Service Committee. The literally changed my life because I was my goal was to be a doctor. I was on a track to be a medical doctor and all that. But I went to that one week up in the Poconos. And I said, I am out of here and got the California the institute and blah, blah, blah. But that was what happened. That one class that one class made all the difference in my life. And here I am all these years later because of it. So, that would be it.
12:33
SM: My gosh. Well, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
12:39
MC: You know, I have to tell you, it is interesting, because, you know, I would probably have to say, coming from New York and moving to San Francisco. I mean, I just do a little quick timeline. I graduated high school in 1966. I was living in an orphanage. It was called the Schenectady Children's Home and the way the law works in New York is that you are a ward of the state. When you turn 18, you are on your own. And I have been a ward of the state since I was born in New York. And I did good in school and the directors of the Schenectady Children's Home where we all went to Mount Pleasant High School said, Mandy, if you decide you want to go on to college, we will pay for the complete thing. But you have got to stay in school and I said, I was interested in the beginning, went one year to Hudson Valley Community College, but then by that time, I was really agitated wanting to really figure out what I wanted to do. I had gone to the AFSC high school work camp, and I made a decision I dropped out. I dropped out of college, which meant I lost all my funding. Hitchhiked down to New York City spent the summer in New York in 1967, and then hitchhiked out to San Francisco with a couple of friends in the at the end of summer, and got to the Institute in 1968. And that is how life has been. To me the (19)60s was a generation "this is what I have to figure out". The Civil Rights Movement had just ended, Martin Luther King had been assassinated. John F. Kennedy had been assassinated. Bobby Kennedy had been assassinated to have those three murders happen in a lifetime of a generation. I do not know if we will ever-ever have that replicated again, and the impact that had and add to that remember, the Cuban Missile Crisis.
14:22
SM: Oh yes-yes, (19)62, 196-
14:26
MC: And I remember in New York, they were given last rights on the radio and then feeling like you know, your life could be over any minute. There was such a sense of urgency, Steve, that I always thought, why am I going to be doing this? I might not be around long enough. Why do not I do the world's safer to I can at least know I will be around long enough. And I think there was a whole generation of us that this kind of error era that it I think it just had a profound impact on how we viewed life, how we saw things and then we thinking we have got to dedicate our lives to figuring out how social change could really change all of that. That would be the thing I would say would be unique.
15:05
SM: When you look at the boomer generation, what would you if you were to list some characteristics of some of the strengths that you saw in the generation some of the weaknesses, what would they be?
15:17
MC: Folk songs, I thought I thought that whole era of you know was you know, named mom, Judy calm. Joan Baez, you know, Crosby, Stills, Nash, that whole kind of what I would call acoustic music. But what was on the radio, it was like folk songs. I think that certainly set a tone in terms of what kind of music you were hearing or you know, Buffalo Springfield, I thought that was interesting. And of course, living in California and being at the heart of the whole anti draft resistance movement. By the resistance, I was living in San Francisco, that resistance with David and all those folks down in Palo Alto, and we were doing demonstrations of the other day. And so, because we were at the heart of being able to maybe stop some of the Vietnam War Machine, if you will, with the, uh, ports where and the- were guys had to go further to be inducted, it just seemed to be like the heartbeat. So, maybe my perspective might would be different than if I was living in, you know, down south or something like that. But another-another method would have to would have to have been Kent State. I think Kent State and remember, there had been some other black kids killed before that on some black schools, but Kent State, I think it just made people realize this government will do whatever it needs to do and it will kill our own people. What a rude awakening that was. I would say certainly the murders of Kennedy, [inaudible] Kennedy at Kent State, you know, it is just- it seems like it is-it is-it is impossible to believe that these things could happen. We are in the missile crisis? How could that happen?
16:56
SM: When you look, when you look at the generation [inaudible], would you consider mostly positive or whether some negative qualities within the within this group?
17:05
MC: I would always see it as positive. But I think that you know, I was also living in the Bay Area when the Black Panthers came around. And as a black person who was a staunch pacifist, I was asking what in the world of these black folk doing with guns up at the state capitol? Do they not realize that I do not care how many guns they carry, look at the price these black panthers paid? And when I think about the Panthers, what people do not remember or they should that they had some of the best programs going on over in Oakland. They had breakfast programs, they had programs going on in the neighborhood. And I saw that side of it. And I could not understand Steve why a group that would be so dedicated to the community. They are the ones that brought in the afros. I mean, look, look at the size of bandits. Angela Davis is outgrowing, get rid of that? You know, James Brown with the slicked down hair and the process and they said you know black is beautiful. And then to go from that message to an off the pigs And, and it was just, and I know for me it was rough choice to be around my black people in. Hear, "well, you know, we are going to support the Panthers, do you?", And I said, "I am not I am not going to be supporting the Panthers not with the guns". I like the idea of doing the breakfast program and working in the neighborhood. What is up with that guy and look at the price these people paid, get murdered in jail, and why they thought guns would work. I do not it is beyond me. It did not.
18:25
SM: You were there in San Francisco during the summer of love.
18:29
MC: I was there during the Summer of Love.
18:30
SM: What was it like being in the Bay Area? You are the first person, ah well David obviously was there. But the first the first person that was really talked about it except describing it. What was it like being in San Francisco in the summer look?
18:45
MC: Well the first place we went of course because we were moving down I was I actually ended up one a part of my part one of my jobs I got just because I had no place to live. I was living in Central Park and I was living down in Washington Square Park, but this is like (19)67 so it is like not it is not it was not bad. It was like just the thing that you did. You know in New York, we were called luck children who go to, you know, California. But I remember I had run out of money. I was walking down in the East Village, West Village. And there was a sign hanging on the door that says, Come on in free lunch or something. And it was run by Tim Leary. It was called the Lead for Spiritual Discovery, LSD. Do I need to say more? And here is the negative. This is one of the negatives I saw. So many young people were going to all these, you know, like New York and San Francisco. Do you know who and if you wanted a place to stay, they would give you free housing. But 99.9 percent of the people sitting down there were men trying to hit on all the women coming into these places, and it happened to me. And I said to the people who were who were running this place, I said, you know, what, I would like to find a place to stay and of course, all the end of the night, it is all these guys. That is all they were doing. It was just despicable when I think about it. Mm hmm. And you know, after the first night, I said, what my choice was one guy or three guys down at the dock. That was my choice. And I turned to the running display says that you need to know this is not good. They said, well, Mandy, is there anything we can do? And I said, you know, is there a way I can work for you or in exchange for a place to stay that is safe? And they said, yeah, you could work here and answer the phones. And that is what I did for the whole summer, Steve, when I work place the whole summer. Oh, but when I think about how men in my opinion, it happened out in California, when we got out there the same thing. They were just sitting on all these women, and if you were willing, and I thought about that, and How sick is that? Yeah, that was the downside for me.
20:44
SM: One of the things some and you know this from probably hearing it on the news, and then criticisms of the boomer generation for the problems in our society over the years, I remember in (19)94, I think of Newt Gingrich when he came to power, um, some of his comments, were that, you know, because a lot of the problems in American society are directly related to the (19)60s. And of course, George Will over the years has written pieces on it. And other people have made comments who were against the liberal left or anything they can to kind of downgrade that era and that generation and the things that happened in the (19)60s in the (19)70s. Criticisms like well, the drug culture, the breakdown, the American family, the divorce rate, a lack of respect for authority. This was a creation of the victim mentality that many people today saying is out there because of that era. What are your thoughts on those critics of the boomer generation who believe this?
21:45
MC: I do not buy it. And what I find fascinating is that maybe now this is just my opinion, but when you think about who was sitting in those offices, while we were trying to beat that war back, it was Dwight Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon and maybe a lot of us are kind of like we are waiting for a moment when we would have enough numbers to make a difference. And you know, who then ended up being Bill Clinton? And-and so, you know, when I think about now, you know, there is I mean, we would have predicted during that time, how many times for those of us who were out here trying to end that war in Vietnam, and again, a lot of us were too young for the Civil Rights Movement. All we heard was, your rosy eyed never going to happen, you cannot make change. That is all we ever heard. And then we found out when the Nixon tapes were exposed, and someone like the Dan Ellsberg talk about a magic moment, Daniel Ellsberg, who used to work for the RAND Corporation, bumped into people like Randy Keeler and David Harris. Right. And what led him to get to give out the pentagon papers that was about a magic moment, Steve, and that probably did not work to really pull back the veil-veil? Of what was said versus the reality of what they were doing and I think that a lot of us were thinking, we can make a difference. We have made a difference. But we had to wait until almost the presidency of Bill Clinton after Ronald Reagan. So, it is easy to always blame someone or say something. It was not I realized, Steve, that Vietnam War was over. I remember how I said you earlier that a lot of us who had longevity understood it was not just a particular war or a particular issue. Mm hmm. A lot of people went back to school, they got married, they had children, no disrespect, you know that that was part of what you know, they almost put off their lives to try to end this war. And they did. And then people kind of asked, well, then you want me to come back out and do what now? I mean, like, you know, civil justice issues, we are continuing on that lives and you see people now who are of the (19)60s generation, but look at the (19)70s they bring to the table and-and I think that is part of- In my opinion, in a way, you go Clinton then you go eight years of George W. Bush who never should have been in there. And then you get of all people, Barack Obama with the timing. I mean, tell me history did not have some kind of a path happening here. And I have a lot to think in my opinion of that to the (19)60s has direct impact. That is me. I might.
24:19
SM: Well, that-that is interesting. One of the things about the (19)60s and early (19)70s, and a lot of people think the (19)60s go right to about 1973, (19)74 when some changes took place.
24:31
MC: But especially when that war ended in (19)73.
24:34
SM: Yes, but there were so many movements, the Civil Rights Movement that the I guess the question I am trying to ask is, how important was the boomer generation and the people that were young during that time and in their ongoing links, today with these movements, and I am talking about the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American Movement and the environmental movement. And, you know, how important were the youth. And again, we know that you are you are have had longevity and you have mentioned the Joan Baez and others. But really, the leaders of those movements continued to lead those movements as they aged.
25:18
MC: Now this leads to an interesting point, and I am really glad you asked it that way. Maybe what I was trying to say is that I think another lesson we learned especially after the murder of Martin Luther King I think everyone realized was that if you if you have a cause, and if you do not try to hold up one person who winds up being the head of that cause, because if you kill them, you kill the movement. [dial tone] is-is that the cause is really what has got to be the continuum, not you. So, if the leadership gets older, they move on or whatever, it is the cause that ends [dial tone], excuse me, that ends up and I remember a distinct I remember in the leadership of what I would call our generation, why women got damn sick and tired of men running everything including the resistance because it was always male with men-men- men-men, the Civil Rights Movement, namely a woman other than Coretta Scott King and the person who sat into Montgomery Bus Boycott, you would be you would be hard pressed to hear anyone get.
26:14
SM: Dorothy Height might be another one.
26:16
MC: And, Dorothy Height, but you know, but I mean, three, um. And so, I think you know, when you when you saw movements that were so which is one reason why I think the women's and feminist movement really took off. People just got tired of always feeling like we were here, we were here we were doing the work, but the figureheads who got to get the press. It was always the men and I think a lot of women said, besides just fighting for the rights as women, Steve was a voice and a movement they could call their own. And so, I remember one distinct meeting. I do not know if David mentioned this or not, but I will share one distinct meeting that I remember when we were having with the resistance down in Palo Alto, we were doing one of our usual meetings and the men were dominating and someone passed a piece of paper and approve, you know, you are at a meeting pass a piece of paper around, put your information on it. And it got to one woman and she says, "Well, how come there is nothing but penises on this list? There is no women on here." And that one comment, made everyone go. Yeah, yeah. And the other. And the other controversy was Joan Baez, when she and her sister Mimi and Pauline put out that poster that said, women say yes to men to say no. And you I mean, they had to take it off because it was just people were outraged because what message was that women say yes to the men who say no. And so you know, think about that. put that in perspective. And if you want to, if you want to view if you want to, if you want to view those kinds of, if you were doing like a flowchart, where this dramatic shift of women thinking Enough is enough. And then of course, with the women them dealing having to deal with us, we are lesbian now, when this whole thing called the lavender menace. We do not want lesbians associated with, they were not that they were not there. Which meant that a lot of lesbians said, you know, what if we cannot be here to be who we are, we are gone. We are out of here. And then you got the lesbian movement. So, I am just intrigued at these moments where sometimes it is not out of because people realize it is the right thing. You just get tired of being ignored or you are not your issues are not relevant, and you go on, start something new, and then look what we have now.
28:25
SM: Well, we know that um. I know Dr. King, if he were alive, would be very sensitive to this issue, because he would have to take the criticism that the Civil Rights Movement, like you said, was basically a male dominated movement in the antiwar movement the same way. I would like to ask you questions, though, on the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement. Cesar Chavez was kind of a con on the leaders in the Native American movement and the environmental movement were men also kind of in the lead of these movements and women worse in secondary roles at the beginning.
29:00
MC: You know, it is interesting. I mean, let us take one, let us take, let us take them each by their own thing, because each one could be different. What was interesting to me is that you know, when you thought about Cesar Chavez, first of all, the fact that you had led farmworkers organizing was extraordinary. And the fact that it was not white and middle class, it was like, Whoa, what is going on here in California. But what people do not remember is that Cesar Chavez always, always, always had if the laws were with him, or always demanded that the media make sure that they included her but the media kept on only talking about who, Cesar Chavez and it was not until Cesar got ill and or when he could not be somewhere that people realize, wait a minute, Dolores Huerta was there from day one with Cesar Chavez, but a lot of people do not remember that history. And so, even so even when you have a man who understands and especially in the Latino community, where even though you have got this macho thing, let us admit it is like a matriarch just like the black community, what do you think? Family it is women and maybe part of the dynamic this is, this is a little psychological but maybe part of the reason why when you have, and it is more of an issue with black men than with women about being gay. Women have always been the matriarch of the family. And maybe anything that threatens the idea that males are so what word Am I looking for Steve are so chastised or so put down that whenever there is an opportunity for them to be the figurehead to be the face and voice, they will take it. But still knowing that without the women, I mean, if you did not have women, in these black churches, man, you would not have no black church, but the minister gets all the accolades. Mm hmm. And so-and so, I think when you think about, you know, the gay thing when I first talked about being gay in my black community, you know what they said to me? They said, "Mandy, we have enough problems, we do not need to be bringing that gay thing in here. That is all we need to have. We can barely hang on to our men now and you want we are going to lose more men because we are gay." I mean, think about that. And that really goes to a heart a lot of the reason why they are upset because it is what the preacher says, but they are thinking we do not want to lose no more men. Anyway, um, so, but-but I think the environmental women, I think the environmental movement had a lot more women, what was the Dr. Helen Keller got? Is that her name?
31:17
SM: Yes.
31:18
MC: Yeah, really-really was out there. And I would say that might have been the place where it really broke the tenure of-of being so male dominated. And now that that would almost tend to think as we went into the (19)70s and (19)80s there tends to be quite frankly, more women. Sometimes they have been men but again, it was just hard to break that male dominated thing even if they were doing good social justice.
31:43
SM: I know in the Native American movie you think of Russell Means and Sam sub there was a woman made kill about most women are placed in a secondary role there either so-
31:53
MC: And once again they were you know, and yet you still had so many strong women, Native American Indigenous women and you know and maybe that and maybe that is where you know you ended up people like with woman man killer and others who ended up starting to write and or be known and, and but this culture is just- it is just men and also the media does not help when they say who you are speaking to your people who your spokespeople see when there was a (19)63 march on Washington. We always talked about [inaudible] never got to speak as an out gay man but you never you never you know who else did not speak that day. Not one woman spoke, they say, not one woman spoke at the 1963 march on Washington, because they even said we cannot have any women speaking because we will not be taken seriously. So, think about that. Here we are with black folk trying to get the right to vote and be full citizens. But even at the march that was really a magic moment. Women were allowed to sing but they did not speak.
32:53
SM: I know at least Dorothy Height was able to stand up there with him, so. [laughter]
32:58
MC: You know what as he went on no, you do not. And then the rules were no women speaking. But think about that now. And I am not saying it is I am not saying I am not trying to put a value judgment on it. But I think it was sense of even it did not matter what movement if you were black, white, Latino, Native American, in a movement for justice, even within those movements, there was still the issue of where the issue of gender and let alone sexual orientation what role they had to play, but look how far we have come.
33:27
SM: When you think of Harvey Milk, I actually lived out in the San Francisco Bay Area at the time that he was assassinated along with Mayor Moscone. When-when Harvey Milk who is the hero of the gay and lesbian movement, even though Stonewall happened many years earlier, what-what-what how would you rate him and whether he was he was a male leader? So, what how would you rate him in terms of, uh, his treatment of women?
33:56
MC: But you never said something about First of all, people, I have not seen the movie milk pretty limited. I do not know if I could go, have you seen that?
34:03
SM: Yes, I have it.
34:05
MC: Okay. Uh huh. Okay, um, one day I might, you know, I might I might get around to it. I remember, after the Vietnam War, it took me years and years and years before I could go to the wall. I mean, you talk about people having issues going to the wall of being vets, I think a lot of us who are who wanted to fight that war. I could never go near that wall. It was just too hard. And I thought a lot of us who fought that to fought the war in Vietnam, let alone those who fought in it. The Wall was a hard place and it took I think it was like two years ago, I finally went to the wall for the first time ever. Oh, wow. It was it was devastating to think how many lives we lose and for what? Anyway, Harvey Milk, putting up with Harvey when this is what is so interesting, though. See, when Harvey, when Harvey and you were there, when Harvey Milk started to run, you know, back in the community was what are you wasting your time we are having a great time in San Francisco. It was not met with any kind of wonderful thing the way you look at people now who run for public offices, it is like what is the point? But Harvey as a man, and because he had a lot of the gay male community behind them, but there were a number of women who were can that were key in his election campaign did not get to hear that. Now this, the tragedy is and I was, you know, we are all hanging out in the bars, but I was hanging at Moz. And, and you know, and someone said Harvey wants to run and why not? It is gay vote and blah-blah. It was not until the man got murdered on that fateful day. And we all looked at each other. I mean, remember, Steve, but that happened that day, everyone was told to meet down at the corner of Castaway market bring a candle we are going to march in silence down to City Hall. And Steve, this is a town where lesbians never mixed with gay men, gay men never mixed with lesbians because we had our own worlds. That was what was great. And we got to the corner of market and [inaudible] and Steve, we looked at each other and said, what have we been doing? And it took Harvey's death, and George Moscone’s murder to say we have got to come together as a community, and I do not think that it is just an- a weird thing to say, I do not think that would have happened and occurred and look where we are now-now with the politics of San Francisco, because people did not quite understand what we had in the gift. We are too busy in our own worlds, you know, I will never forget that moment as long as I live. And I think back at that time, and that to me was the candidate in terms of the power and the politics of LGBT San Francisco to this day.
36:30
SM: My sister lived within three blocks of Mayor Moscone’s home. And I can remember I have a dumbed down Berlin game and I can remember driving up around his home and seeing all the cars there after the day after he was killed. And then of course, the event the daytime event in front of City Hall, remember when and I was there along with just about, I had a lot of people that I worked with, they were in they were not getting it what they could, but they liked Harvey Milk and they were all there. Talk about bringing people together, that that event brought gay and straight together because they admired him and I will never forget Joan Baez singing Amazing Grace.
37:13
MC: Oh, man, do you remember?
37:14
SM: Were you there?
37:16
MC: Yeah, I was there at that? Yeah. Talk about, talk about memorable days memorable days, not only in the context of San Francisco, I am getting chills thinking about it. And, you know, it is just it is almost like it is not me, Steve, but once to take this to lose someone to really sometimes grasp just how precious what we have in the, in our dedication to what we do.
37:38
SM: It is almost amazing because it is I have worked in universities for so about 30 years and, you know, all the different groups that we have talked about here, whether they be African American, Asian, American, Latino, you know, college Republicans, college Democrats, student, government, gay and lesbian, all the groups. They all come together. When there is a tragedy, like 911 and or somebody is murdered or the Rodney King incident, or whenever there is a major tragedy, they are all together and but then they seem to dissipate are not together anymore. Except for cultural extravaganzas, or, you know, and diversity, they have these special events that happen the university, it brings everybody out and about a tragedy, but it does not seem to be an everyday happening. And that is always disturb me. I do not know how you feel.
38:30
MC: And I was wondering to set that that is part of I was wondering if that is part of human nature, is that part of American culture, I agree with you. We would like to come together around a moment of tragic tragedy. And then time goes by now I will say this, I think they are, I think that would happen sometimes, though, that lessons are learned and I think there is some strong bonding that happens too, so some so you so you stay in touch with or you might be more clued in about why we need to establish like a relationship together. And I am not sure why someone was celebrating something and or when we have to mourn. And I am not sure what that is about Steve. I mean, but on the other hand remember I told you after Harvey's death, I mean, the gay and lesbian community, we did not, there was really no reason why we had to get together. But when Harvey ran, and then we realized about the politics of the city, and it was in our best interest to try to figure out ways, um, and then you know, when he after he got killed, we had another gay person run, got the seat, and then you had your first lesbian. You know, so, yes and no, depending on what you mean by-by staying together versus drifting apart. I mean, more about that, maybe that would help me understand.
39:46
SM: Well, at the university, for example, we had a, um, student who was an African American gay male, and I did not know this till after he left, but he was a very big leader within the Black Student Union. And, uh, he was always in the BSU office, BSU office, it is not on purpose, they have always had their doors shut. But right across the hallway is the Gay and Lesbian Student Union. And they had their-their office. And his only comment was that he told another person who told me is that he never felt comfortable walking across the hall because he feared what his peers would say in the BSU. So that was, you know, that that is the separation, I am talking about that, uh, you are, you are expected to be in one community and it is okay to be friends. But if, if you go too far, I just a perception that I have seen what one of the qualities of the boomer’s generation is they thought they were the most unique generation in American history. And a lot of boomers when they were young felt that way because they thought they were going to change the world. They were going to end injustice. They were going to bring equality. They are going to end the war, they are going to create a more perfect world. And that is why they had that unique feeling in some to even who we were approaching that (19)62 era-era still think that. But what are your thoughts on a generation? You know, I do not think I am not sure 74 to 78 million thought this, but a lot of them knew that they are unique. Just your thoughts on they are thinking that they are unique.
41:25
MC: Yeah, I guess I guess he said a racist field that I guess I would be curious to know, like, you know, go from the (19)60s, you know, what they racing and all that. Now, this is my take on it. I think I mean, I say I still think the (19)60s were magical because I think, uh, I mean who would be the next, and how do we count the generation? So, if you had the (19)60s, would it be the (19)70s and (19)80s. And then what was the Generation X and Y? I have no clue what that means.
41:52
SM: Generation X and now the millennials. Yeah.
41:56
MC: Is that what they are calling them? Look at the music we are listening to. I mean, when I think about the song I remember hearing that were songs that really meant something Dylan and Baez and other folk, you know, it was it was a protest generation but it was also a generation of hope. Now I cannot even make the lyrics out half the time of what is going on. Um. And so, music is an indication of what your what your generation is about. I do not know my day and I was part of that (19)60 thing because after that, I just lost track and then we got the bubblegum pop, (19)70s stuff and, you know, whatever.
42:29
SM: Disco. Disco.
42:35
MC: Wait a minute. I am glad you said that. Because I was just thinking about something. I was I would play I think we should claim to disco gay community. And here is why.
42:44
SM: Hold on. I am going to turn my tape here. Hold on one second.
42:48
MC: Okay, great.
42:55
SM: All right. Alright, go continue.
42:57
MC: But I am glad you mentioned disco because I remember this is going back to when I was up in Schenectady high school. I remember. And I will just say all this stuff, and then you figure it out, Steve, I remember thinking when the Civil Rights Movement was in its height of time, you know, (19)64, (19)65 and all that was going on down there. I remember Motown and if you remember the (19)60s and Motown songs ended up being this amazing cultural thing. And I guess you would have to count Elvis-Elvis in there somewhere in the (19)50s. With seemed like, even if you were white. You listen to songs of the Motown and I think we have to credit Motown for maybe bringing a lot of folks maybe never would have been put in the same place because of the music that was going on in the (19)60s and that would be the Motown sound, the folk songs. And then in (19)64, (19)65 came the Beatles. Now remember how jarring that was for me because up in upstate New York, when I was going to Mount Pleasant High School, we would always have daily dances and until the Beatles came along the only music that we were hearing, dancing was Motown, and then the Beatles and someone said, well, who are these people? They were white. They were from Britain. They had a sound, they took the whole thing over. But after the (19)60s, the (19)70s then we had disco. And I was in San Francisco and thank God for Sylvester. [laughter] You know who Sylvester is right. Yes. And Sylvester was the biggest Queen out there and he did not have anything but pride about who he was. But disco ended up being the scene and who else was on that? The Village People with YMCA? Yep. And how many baseball games do you go today? Steve? What song do they play all the time at every baseball stadium in this country, YMCA, so do not tell me that you know that whole disco sound and you know that was another generation too. But even disco had its unique role in my opinion music of-
45:02
SM: You, you make a perfect way? Because all my friends were listening to Diana Ross and the Supremes. I mean, who would know? Yeah. And the temptations and the list and of course, Marvin Gaye and what is going on in the early (19)70s.
45:10
MC: I mean it is powerful songs, right?
45:19
Yeah. And they are just, they are just so many and then of course, um, Donna Summer you are talking about Donna Summer and Gloria Gaynor and the Bee Gees and all the disco music is unbelievable. You make some good-good points. How important, how important do you feel that the college students of the boomer generation were in ending the war in Vietnam? I have gotten mixed responses on their-their impact on ending the war, just your thoughts on the protests on college campuses, and their overall impact.
45:55
MC: Pivotal. We could not do it without him. I mean, we had a lot of people out in the streets, but it was because we had these courts that was the other thing see we ended up doing this this tactic of coordinated days of action, I remember, not the draft week, um, you know you name them were and the infrastructure because college campuses was the natural built in infrastructure that us to organize these strikes and sit-ins and pros and what not and-and I do not know how you do movement in this country without them you had students very much involved heading down in droves down south when the Civil Rights Movement was going on. When you had the feminist movement and you had people demanding women's studies programs on college campuses, you had women campuses all across this country and even with the farm worker boycott, which is how did you think they got all these contracts when these colleges to say do not buy the lettuce so colleges, to me, is a built in infrastructure that really worked and the other, the other the other. The other network would have to be the churches came to the fore as well. Churches in the draft civil rights, women, environmental now you see with the gay lesbian thing. So, college campuses and their faith-based community. This seems to be natural. So, for me, I think, for this kind of justice organizing.
47:14
SM: How do you feel about this? This quote, this is another criticism on the generation. And we often hear it. "Only 15 percent of the boomer generation was ever really involved in any kind of activism. And so, we are talking 85 percent, who did nothing." I believe they were all subconsciously affected whether they did something or not, but that is still a lot of people. So, your thoughts on when people use that as a criticism and a lessening of the impact of the boomer generation for good in America.
47:51
MC: I do not know if I buy that. I mean, I do not, you know, I do not know where they got that figure 15 percent. I am not sure what they are getting at. Here is the other way to look at it, but let us go the other side. And that is all it took us to make this big, big difference where it makes it easier to go out and think about who you have to organize if we can do it with just only 15 percent of the population. But I think maybe this might be, this might be an interesting thing I have always wondered. And it was not until after the Pentagon Papers came out, and Dan Ellsberg and we had him talk about, you know, why he did what it did and what he thought about it. And it makes you wonder if it is about, lose my train of thought. If it is about changing hearts and minds. I mean, I remember when I was doing my first organizing, someone said to me, man, do you know how change happens in this country? And I said, no, tell me how it happens. Blah, blah. He said, it is about the changing of hearts and minds, but it is also about at times, partnering that with changing the public policy. And that there are times one gets ahead of the other and here is a classic example, interracial marriage in this country was against the law until we had the chicken in 1967. I graduated high school in (19)60. But in 1967, the famous Loving v. Virginia case out there did finally once and for all put to rest that you could be an interracial couple and get married legally in any state in this country. But that did not mean that the next day after that decision and to 1967 the rule said, Oh, yeah, we did it now. Yeah, it is all right. You can be married and if you are an interracial couple, just the opposite Steve. People hated the idea, but that was when the law got ahead of public opinion. So, I wonder in this country when you have a lot of young but they would call who is all these popular these people out here? You know, rebel rousing there is so few of them. Why are they causing all this? Why are they causing all these problems? But those handful of people, that really, were so dedicated to what they believed in and willing to take the risk and down south, you know, when they said black folk is not going to never make a difference down here. But it did make a difference, Steve. And so, versus the-the final product of what you end up changing, society and attitudes, then I would not I would not go by percentage, I will go by the fact that it did it got done. And sometimes it only happens with a handful of people. I do not know if I am articulating that well or not. But that is hearts and minds, policy, the power of the vote, the power of being in the street, the power of what you believe in.
50:34
SM: What is interesting is that today’s universities are run mostly by boomers, in some and now generation Xers those born after 1982, and so those are the people that are now running today's universities, and a lot of them are boomers that are some of them heading toward retirement, but they are in leadership roles. I am wondering, uh, and this is just the thought based on my experience. But I would like your thoughts, that there is a fear of activism on university campuses, not volunteerism, they want people to volunteer and service learning is crucial and, and they will be everybody will be the first to say, well, that is activism. But activism in terms of 24/7 is-is what I am talking about people whose lives are activists as opposed to giving a certain number of hours a week toward a cause. And, and my thought is that, and I like your thoughts on it is that universities are afraid of activism because it brings to mind what happened in the (19)60s, which is about disruption, stopping of classes. And in this day and age, we know that parents send their kids to college and if anything happens, they will send them take them right out and send them to another school. So, your thoughts on whether universities that actually learn anything about the activism that took part in the (19)60s and-and then in the possible linkage between the leaders that run universities today and the fear of activism itself?
52:09
MC: Well, I would say because I speak on a lot of college campuses I would say, like we say that I do not see anywhere near the level of activism what I saw, you know, back in the day, if I can use that term. In fact, I have been to a couple of campuses, I cannot believe to see where I was told that because they learned so well, from what the demonstrations that have happened in the past, that they were when they were doing building designs and security designs, they would do it in a way that there would be less opportunity for sit ins or taking things over or whatever. Because some of them had learned so well from when people were doing their activism on college campuses. And I thought that was just too ironic. And some of those people were people in the (19)60s who said, oh, yeah, I used to fit in and if you want to make sure that this is sit-in proof, right, this is what you can do but I do not I do not see as much maybe because it has taken a different style and, and this is my take on it but back in the day I was thinking about the film Brother Outsider when there was that one part where he said you had no faxes, you know we had a phone we did not you know, we did not have email and yet we were able to get, you know, quarter of a million people to the mall. And you think about what that took. But nowadays activism is become what do they call it cyber activism or it is just viral you put something out and then everyone across the country gets it at the same time? And is that changing how we protest? Does that change you know, what kind of pressure you bring to bear so you do not have to be out in the street per se? I do not know. But I think it is just an it is certainly is not anywhere near what I saw in my heyday, um, but yet, I would still say campuses have a role to play. But I but I am not in that environment as much.
53:55
SM: There is a, I will get to that question in a second, but there has been writings out there by one or two people that basically said the increase in tuitions, the fact that students have to work to get through college, which was not really the case as much in the (19)60s and (19)70s, has put a burden on students, so they have no time for activism. And that that and that in itself is part of a plan. So, I do not know if I buy all that. But it is interesting that there is some truth because when you look at today's college students, they do not have the time. Yeah. What is one event and your eyes changed the generation forever, that most shaped the lives of them in their adult years is, is there one specific event that that you feel the boomer generation, you know, felt, changed their life more than any other?
54:48
MC: Can I say a couple or just one or - I would say, um, when I think of the boomers, I am counting, well, Kennedy was killed in (19)63. I still think that that I think the Kennedy, I think the Kennedy assassination forever will ever be a benchmark for our generation. The other ones I would say that I would include on if I was doing a list this would be on my list. Woodstock, that just came new. Three Mile Island, Three Mile Island remember but on the other hand, what was the other huge treaty action that was up in, uh, up in New England were all these people got arrested because they were doing anti-nuclear power.
55:35
SM: That was Barragan was at the Barragan, uh.
55:38
MC: No, nope it was uh [dial tone] The Barragan s certainly had a role to play when you think about anti draft and stuff and then being priest but no, this was that big of steam. It was somebody It was a huge [dial tone] on the tip of my tongue. It was up in new way it was up in New England. It was around the power plant and it was the first time I think post-Vietnam and not Central American organizing where we sort of talked about the next big issue was going to be stopping nuclear, uh, weapons and these power plants, I will have that I might have to email it to you if I think of it. But I remember that being because that was one of the biggest civil disobedience actions. Outside of some of the actions we did to sit in against the war in Vietnam, that would be the next kind of big thing. Mm hmm. And then for me, and for the gay community was the 1987. March on Washington in 1987, Steve, where we rolled out the AIDS quilt, and all that went with it, and all we did to organize around that, I think, put the gay and lesbian movement on the map. Mm hmm. Post milk. Those would be the big ones I could think of when I think of the boomer now that is kind of getting beyond the (19)60s. So maybe I am getting out of range there.
56:51
SM: But that is still part of Boomer lives. So, that is important because when we are talking about this, we are not only talking we are talking about when they are young but as they grow as they grow up as they grow. So, this is about the time the boomers were alive. And so obviously, if you believe in evolution and growth and development, these are all important.
57:08
MC: Okay, good. Good. I was not sure if there was like, find a kick back to specific years or not, nope.
57:14
SM: Is there, uh- When did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end? Was there a watershed moment in, in its beginning? And then in its end?
57:26
MC: Well I would, I would, think as for me, when I was thinking about the (19)60s generation and how I did it as being a passivist and being an activist, it literally made I think it and, I do not know, if I say it ended, but I would say that the cutoff time, because remember, all of us were trying to end that damn war. And when that war was declared over in 1973, that was a benchmark because it was like, oh, my God, finally after all these years, and when they declared that, you know, the Vietnam War is over in 1973. Now, this is for me, Steve. I do not know if I can speak for everyone else, but for a lot of It meant that the charge of our lives at that point, would be like someone working in the Civil Rights Movement and you finally end up getting whatever you are trying to get the (19)63 voting rights act or (19)65 whatever. But I remember thinking distinctly when the (19)70s came along, so, in a way, it is also by the calendar, you know, (19)68, (19)69 a lot of stuff going on a (19)69, (19)70, (19)73. And for me, like, I know when I turned what, when did I turn 30, 40? I would have to look at the calendar and think about that, but I do not know. I mean, can I ask you what when did you think it ended?
58:42
SM: Well, I thought the six to me yeah. And again, this is about you, not me, anyways. But yeah, but to me, I was on I was in my first job at Ohio University Assistant Director of Student Affairs, and my very first job and I got a call from friends to come back to the Ohio State campus because students were streaking. [shriek] And, and, and we were talking and they said, well, the age of protest is over. Now students are streaking and that was 1973. [laughter] In the Fall. So, I placed I know that in people's minds, the (19)60s never left for those that were involved, but in terms of what was happening on the university campuses, streaking was the was a main thing because geez, I, I could not believe what I saw and I observed, I had a friend and I was actually teaching at a, was an administrator at a Catholic school in Indianapolis and he was ran a residence hall, and one of his students streaked at this Catholic school. And he was expelled from the school totally he had to leave the university and in the middle of school, so in the spring of the following year, so that is the kind of one the one of the events that I remember I have, I have, I want to read this to you because I think this is important. This is a big issue about healing. Do you feel boomers are still the boomer generation is still having a problem from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, a division between black and white divisions between gay and straight divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, time heals all wounds a truth? I preface this, I add something to this and that is that meeting we had when I took students to see senator Muskie and before he, a year and a half before he died, he had just gotten out of the hospital. And the students were really excited about this question we asked him we thought he was going to talk about 1968 nominee divisions at that convention which he was the vice-presidential candidate. And he responded right away that we have not been healed since the Civil War. That was his response. So, just your thoughts on whether this issue of healing, is that important within the boomer generation? Or am I just making something up? That is not important?
1:01:23
MC: No, see, I would go the opposite. I would I would just, I would just I would say, I do not know if that is true. Certainly, I would certainly say, and it is two reasons. I think there is three reasons why we saw we did end the war in Vietnam, and we saw in time that we did have an impact that in fact, we found out that did make a difference that our movement was there. So, to see that conclusion, and no, we worked on it and see that as a conclusion, I think that was something that really was like a validator. I think the fact that we, uh, I think Barack Obama I mean I mean I work the polls here in North Carolina, Steve. And I remember the day that we were voting whether or not Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama is the primary in the state of North Carolina, which was a pivotal moment in his election. And I remember going to the polls that day in North Carolina there is a town, I do not know if you are familiar with this, the area, that has a huge black population that was based on strays moving up here from the south. So, you know that there is a real sense of history and whatever. And I am out here and one of the things I had to do with the poll that day is anyone who could not come into the polls to vote you have to go out they call it curbside voting. Mm hmm. And I went out to one of the curbs that day and there was a 98-year-old black woman sitting in there in her chair and she was in tears. She said, "I thought I would never live to see the day that a black man would become the president of this country." And I believe that the (19)60s generation, like I said, you earlier, saw the fruition of that. And I think a lot we had a lot to play in that in addition to those who came before women who were willing to vote, the right to vote to since the Civil Rights Movement. And so, I think I had I was at peace after I saw this poor woman. I mean, her whole life was her whole family was brought up in the slave area. So, I think for those of the (19)60s generation of anything, we have seen a kind of, um, I would not use the word closure, Steve, but we have seen a, um, coming around the bend and we saw it in our lifetime. I do not know how else you how else you can say that, that you know the impact that we had as a generation. So, that is why I would not agree with that. Now, on the other hand, race relations in this country and I would add class, class struggles continue to be an issue because we continue to be a country of haves and have nots. And that is my concern, as we move on to the future have and have nots, those who have and those who do not and the fact is you have got people living out here in the streets, kids, families with no place to live, and no heat, no call and repay for this fucking war over in Afghanistan, I am disappointed in Obama. And if anything, a lot of us who fought the Vietnam War now have been going around and will oppose him on this one as well. So that is a long way to say no, I think I think we really, I do not think it is a question of feeling as bad that there is still division, if anything, I think we have seen some closure, but also, we have seen a commitment that we are going to keep doing this issue, organizing around equality and justice as long as we are alive. Because we believe in it then and we believe in it now.
1:04:39
SM: You know, one of the things, and, well I am a big Barack Obama fan, I am also against the war. So, he knew that he is going to get criticized for this so much. But one thing about the issue of him that some people have written and I have read that he was just a continuation of the (19)60s generation in terms of the way he thinks the new Left mentality and all that ideology. So, in a sense, some are upset because it kind of brings back the memories of that period. And even though he is a very young man, yeah. That so you believe that? No, I do not believe that at all, but that there are people that do not like him not so much because he is-he is black. It is because of what his politics and his politics reminds people of the new left. I-I, it is just an- I read this in papers. So, I do not know if this is something that shows this lack of healing that that we have always got to go back and find Achilles heel in everyone and everybody I do not I do not know what it is I do not know. I that is just my thoughts. But-
1:05:42
MC: You know what is intriguing to me, I mean, talk about a generational shift. Look how much trouble he got in with the traditional civil rights people. It was like this guy. It made me think, you know, when I hear someone like Jesse Jackson, shame on this man for saying what he said about Barack Obama. It is like You know, Jesse, I love you, you have played a pivotal role, critical role in the Civil Rights Movement. You cannot hang on to this forever generations are going to move without, with, with you or without you. And it is like, you know, is he black enough, you know, is he this enough? And it was it. I mean, there is a generational shift. Now, I think there might be a tension around the generational side of us who were in the (19)60s in the (19)60s, movement, Civil Rights Movement, antiwar movement, are we willing to let it go? Are we willing to say hey, you know, that is what it was now, but you know, times are what they are now, we cannot hang on to this forever? I mean, that Jesse Jackson, to me is the epitome of I had it. I still want it, but life's going on without me anyway. And then he gets a woman pregnant and he is a minister do not even get me started.
1:06:44
SM: Yeah. Very good point. One other major besides the issue of healing is the issue of trust. The boomer generation when they were young, saw major national leaders lie to them and-and of course, we all know about Nixon Watergate, the enemies list, a lot of things that happened there. We know about President Johnson in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. We know about Eisenhower and his lying about the U-2 incident. Even then rich near [inaudible] writings about Kennedy, and how much did he know about the- was he involved in the overthrow the diem regime? And then, of course, Reagan with Iran Contra, towards the end of his presidency and all kinds of evil. People did not trust board they said there was an agreement made between him and Nixon. The list goes on and on. The boomers did not trust people in positions of authority, whether they be a rabbi, a priest, Minister, president of the university and Director of Student Activities, the United States Senator congressman. I mean, what where, where are we today is that equality of this generation and has this lack of trust been passed on to their kids and grandkids. And then-
1:07:58
MC: I think it has, you know, I will tell you what I have to tell you and it is interesting you read that list off because I still do not know who I can trust and who I believe I do not care who it is. I mean every time you turn around and then when you find out this country is willing to do almost anything you know if we made a skeptic I mean, you know, I sat here in Washington for with September 11 but I also sat here and watched is that these people that wish knew got on a plane and got out of here with me who can you trust? Who can you believe? I like it and to me, I would hope that Obama has nothing that we need to worry about but George W. Bush and all those people and-and why am I still listening to-to Cheney and these people I do not trust them as far as you could throw them and I think at least with the (19)60s generation, maybe we have a healthy very healthy dose discussing skepticism because it was, look what we have seen happen. And, you know, I-I will always remain, uh, very, very leery. But with my government tells me and I also believe that once Obama became president it is no longer Obama's a man. There is a machine that runs on up there. That is the machine it runs with you as a person or not. Right? And I, candidate Obama was one thing but now he is president and I am thinking must have walked in and said, Oh, I did not realize I had this to deal with whatever. But no, I will always be skeptical because we have been burned so many times, Steve, and you know, where we find out more stuff later on. Probably we will.
1:09:30
SM: Talk a little bit more about the music and how important the music was, as part of the boomer generation. You talked about Motown but certainly the folk music and the rock music and-and of course, it had social messages, which was very important to Yeah, just and I remember talking to my parents or the World War Two generation, the big band sound is something that they were very loved and very proud of and come to define them but your thoughts on how important how important the music was, and the artists that you feel were the most important in this right?
1:10:04
MC: I just I just think, you know, I was just sitting here thinking about why-why did Motown? Why did Motown have such a pivotal role to play? Well, one of the things that did is that that music was played, that music was played with a lot of white kids that you could not even be in the same room with what was white kids? At least they were dancing to the music and let me that movie. What was the movie? That the guy from Philadelphia did? Oh, my God. My mind is going John-
1:10:30
SM: Singleton. John Singleton.
1:10:34
MC: Oh, no. It was a movie about the old days before America. You only could have white kids on the show, what is it called?
1:10:44
SM: American Bandstand, Dick Clark.
1:10:47
MC: Yeah, no, but there was a show based on that, but it was better was I want to think of it in a minute. But, but I think the point was, is that people were dancing to black music and black music, Steve, was so good. Not only was it a good tune, but you have to remember until people like Marvin Gaye came along with a message most of it was just a good beat. But white kids were dancing to that beat. That is what I guess that I was trying to solve-
1:11:09
SM: Soul Train. Where you talking about the TV show Soul Train?
1:11:16
MC: No. Movie. It was a movie. No, no. I have to eat it down and I have to find it and I will tell you what it is. But anyway, bottom line, it was a story about it was a dance show, like the American Bandstand. But it was all based in Philadelphia. And what happened is that these white kids were asking well why cannot we have black kids come dance with us because all the music that black songs so at one point they were doing it was called the talent show, they had to go to some studio, and one of the white girls bought a black kid in and it costs a real ruckus, but it turned out that all the black kids had to go to do a black place to dance. All the white kids could go to a white place to dance, but at one point kids said "We are going to protest and we are going to come in and dance to what we as we want anyway." Well, that that that one act of defiance, so we are going to dance anyway turn out to be a major thing that made the city realize these the kids could dance together if they want to blah-blah-blah. You know we did not have great songs and it was all the songs you know about era Motown and all that. But what I was saying about the Motown sound was that even though there was a racial issue going on the music ended up being the unifier because it was a good beat. People love to dance to it black or white, it did not matter. And then once they realized that the songs were so great, and it was bringing money, and they were willing to put these black performers out in front of white audiences, and that changed it forever. You know, you got the Motown review and all that. That is what I meant. I am sorry, that was a long way to, right? That you and I think it is.
1:12:51
SM: Yeah, you mentioned Joan Baez, but some who were the folk singers that you felt kind of crossed over. And then of course, some of you mentioned the Beatles, but any other records.
1:13:01
MC: Yeah, well, I would certainly I would certainly I would certainly say that when you think about the Baez, Dylan even before Joni Mitchell, Peter, Paul and Mary, Peter, Paul, and Mary ended up being able to bring some songs into the mainstream that you might that might not have been played otherwise. I mean, even if you think about back to those songs, what folk songs were not being played that did not go mainstream, they are numbered monovision came out in, and St. Marie came out. But you had some people who are Judy Collins, and they are all singing these folk songs, but also in remember used to have coffee houses and where a lot of organizing happen were in the coffee houses before the music industry became a big deal. A lot of a lot of the organizing and the resistance and people doing stuff because there was a folk singer, local people that were not well known, but I would have to tell you, in my opinion, Joan Baez and Bob Dylan will have to go down is in my opinion, but it forever be the voice of the folk scene. The (19)60s I would say Motown music, will have to go down as the sound of the (19)60s. I would say Buffalo, Crosby, Stills, Nash, Joni Mitchell. And then interestingly, Richie Havens, because how many people of color did we have out there that were singing songs of protest and Richie Havens what a performer this man is. So, I am intrigued that you are going to interview him as, and then Jimi Hendrix, you know? Yeah. You know, I think about that, but you know, as people of color, the movement was so white, you know, no disrespect, but it was like, you know, where are our folk man? Where are our people. And other than Motown and Richie Havens, Aretha Franklin, I mean, you know, people of color, but protest, people of color, Richie Havens would be the closest I could think of, right?
1:14:50
SM: Yep. What were some if you can remember what were what were some of the things you were reading back in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Were there any books and authors that really had an influence on you?
1:15:01
MC: Well, a lot of our reading of course, because we are all past this was, you know, Gandhi, you know, leaning on John Fondren. I was trying to think of my reading was people who were talking about the fundamentals of nonviolence. Um, I was not big. I was not really a big reader. There was a couple of magazines that would come out. Before Rolling Stone became so commercial I remember Rolling Stone being out there. I was living in the Bay Area. So, what the Bay Area Guardian I mean, more movement kind of stuff. I was not a big reader, quite frankly, see, so I cannot remember any books that stood out. Oh, I remember when it was called Our Bodies Ourselves that came out about women's health. There was a thing, I still have it. The movement toward a new society by my, uh, Mitchell Goodman, one of the most amazing books ever put out of the (19)60s I have it sitting on my shelf it is falling apart because it is so old, but I remember that.
1:15:57
SM: What is the name of the book?
1:15:58
MC: It is called- it is called, um, The movement of a New America by Michel Goodman.
1:16:12
SM: Oh, I got to, check that out. Yeah. I have come to the part of the interview where I am going to ask you, just your responses to some of these names and some of the terms of the era. They do not have to be long, but just your feelings on them. And the first one is what do you think of the Vietnam Memorial and its impact not only on Veterans, but on America.
1:16:38
MC: Profound. Absolutely profound. That wall, like I said, I think a lot of us who fought the war, it took us forever to finally go down to that wall. And for me, it was it was just realizing how long we had fought against this war and then to go down there and see what was the 58,000 and for what and I knew a number of people on that wall and I was just thinking, What lessons did we learn from this? I mean, that wall is deep for all kinds of reasons. And you know, that is all and the woman who put it together I mean, it would it would it what a gift in-
1:17:16
SM: Maya Lin, yep.
1:17:17
MC: Blew me away.
1:17:20
SM: What does Kent State, what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
1:17:26
MC: Well it, it meant two things for me one is that why did Kent State get more-more play than Jackson State, Jackson State being where black students got killed but on the other hand, it said to me that this country, what length will this country go to and it became very clear that they were willing to kill people. And I just did I could not believe it, that they would be willing to kill people for a policy that that, that people were protesting, but Kent State was I mean, how is that possible? Jackson State How is that possible?
1:17:59
SM: Yeah, I know Kent State that group that puts together the memorial every year. Always make sure that Jackson States involved and they bring people in. Yeah-yeah. So, they are-they are very sensitive and they have been doing that from the beginning. With the media, you are right about how the media often times does things. What does Watergate mean to you?
1:18:21
MC: Ugh Watergate that was just I think, I think for that generation, Steve, Watergate, Watergate to me is sort of like I do not know if I am going to say this, right. It was-it was an awakening for it was an awakening for the country to realize once again to what ways people will go. my innocence was taken from me when Kennedy got [audio cuts] 22nd 1963. I know exactly where I was. I thinking just cannot happen. And I think when Watergate happened in another kind of way that was like this cannot happen and yet it did and then you realize then you wonder why there is such a healthy level of skepticism. And they got caught. That is what it meant to me. They got caught.
1:19:14
SM: Yeah, Woodstock.
1:19:16
MC: Who knew, who knew. I did not go. I had heard about it. But on the other hand, the commercialization of Woodstock, I am done. You know, it is like, okay, it happened and it was and I do not know?
1:19:32
SM: How about, uh, 1968?
1:19:39
MC: When I hear (19)68, I think of two things in my personal life. I went to the Institute for the Study of nonviolence and met Ira Sandperl and Joan Baez. But of course, (19)68 will be Chicago Democratic National Convention, and what would they call the something 8? What they end up being called the folks who got indicted.
1:19:59
SM: Chicago, Chicago, eight and then Chicago, Chicago seven after Bobby went to was taken away from them.
1:20:06
MC: That is right Chicago 7 got yeah, right. Uh-uh.
1:20:10
SM: Yeah, well how about counterculture?
1:20:15
MC: I always thought that was a media term like where did that come from this idea of counterculture. I thought that was more of a media now this is my thing. I thought that was like a media thing. You know, like the counterculture? I am not even sure what they meant by that.
1:20:26
SM: Theodore Rosa, Rosa wrote that book of the called the making of a counterculture which said it, yeah.
1:20:32
MC: I mean, I do not know about this when you look.
1:20:39
SM: How about the-the hippies and the yippies?
1:20:43
MC: Well, I think because I was I remember the hippie thing because I was there. And but the good thing is that-
1:20:48
SM: Your voice just went down.
1:20:49
I am sorry.
1:20:51
SM: Your voice just went down.
1:20:53
MC: Oh, you know, I just picked up the handset. I was getting static. Okay, can you hear me? Yep, I can hear you. Yep. So, The hippies I mean, it is interesting remember I told you when I was in New York in the summer of (19)67 we were called we were not called hippies we were called you know love children we were called love child you know whatever to say I am go to San Francisco and they were called hippies out there but that But that was before that got commercialized. It was little h-i-p-p-i. But then it became, you know, commercial. Yeah. Yippie Was not that what was his name? Abbie-
1:21:24
SM: Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin created the yippies.
1:21:26
MC: So, I did not quite get that. What does that stand for youth and what?
1:21:28
SM: Youth International Party.
1:21:31
MC: Oh, okay. Yeah, I do not even I do not know what that was about. I did not like these two guys. Anyway.
1:21:37
SM: How about SDS Students for Democratic Society and the weathermen?
1:21:42
MC: Well, the SDS that I mean, to me in the early beginnings, when SDS was truly the students for democratic society, I liked it. I do not I do not know what happened where it went off tracks after that. And what was the other thing?
1:21:53
SM: Uh, the Weathermen.
1:21:54
MC: As a pacifist this what the hell were they doing with guns and bombs and look, look what happened and then they did not they probably caught them did not they did not do or what happened?
1:22:07
SM: Yep, Bernadine Dorn and Harris, who was a friend of, um, President Obama, he has remembered- he has been a critical mass, right? That is right.
1:22:12
MC: And they are, you know, and they are again, I have to tell you something, I never shared this with anyone I want to tell you.
1:22:22
SM: Let me change. Let me change. [audio cuts] Okay, go ahead. I am ready.
1:22:32
MC: Speaking of that, I was just saying that again, this idea of violence and destruction to do that for a better read, I remember there was a big debate, Steve around draft board, destruction. Remember, people were going in and pouring blood on draft files. And there was that one case of thing someone either bombed or put on fire some draft board with the files and it was huge debate because we said, you know, what is the point of going in and doing-doing property damage if you are trying to get people not go you know that interesting line of how do you protest? And are you-are you going to be accountable and I remember Steve during stop the draft week and Oakland where we had the Oakland induction center. The first two days we were going to be organized by the War Resisters League which meant it was a non-violent protest we had everything organized and the second part of the week was going to be organized by those who did not have the same philosophy and their attitude was do it but do not get caught and-and do it and do not get caught meant the girls burning tires and we thought you know well here is your let us go use this as an example do it but do not get caught so you have no accountability you are not you do not know why you did it. You are not going to stand up and-and-and-and take the kind of risk and or, the punish- you know, I do not want to use the word punishment but you know, to say that, in jail for 10 days versus like, do it, do not get caught that that was a really dividing line for I think a lot of us in the movement. That is whether underground curiosity like, you know, what is the point.
1:24:11
SM: That, you actually you just created a magic moment. We have had like five magic moments. That is a magic moment. And you just said there, because Dr. King was the one that said, if you are not willing to go to jail for your beliefs, then you are, you know, then you shouldn't be out there. And, and it was the Barragan brothers who put blood on nuclear and destroyed draft card, draft papers and everything, but they went there and did it and they were caught and they went to jail for years, because they were willing to pay the price for their actions.
1:24:44
MC: Backed by, big difference, is not it?
1:24:46
SM: Oh, really big difference. How about the Vietnam Veterans against the war?
1:24:51
MC: Unbelievable. I you know, when you think about the fact that vets and we were trying to stop the war that we did not have to have vets, but to have come out of that war, and be called Vietnam vets against war. Unbelievable. And I think that was that would have that would have to go into a category that we never thought that could happen or that was not even on our radar. Think about you have vets who are over there understanding about how that you know what was wrong with the war and look at the role they played, you know, with their role in terms of opposing the first Iraq war, when they said no, it has been there do not did it. Do not do it. But yeah, unique. And thank you.
1:25:30
SM: What did the three most? Well, I think one of the actually these three pictures are, are in the top 100 pictures of the twentieth century, but they were major pictures that oftentimes are looked at-at defining the (19)60s generation. One of them is Tommy Smith and John Carlos raising their fists at the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City. The second one is Kim Phuc. Well, the young girl being burned in Vietnam and that was a 1971 picture. Yeah. And then the third picture was Mary Ann Vecchio the 14-year-old girl over the body of Jeff Miller at Kent State on May 4, 1970. What, when you think of those three pictures? What do you think of?
1:26:15
MC: Well first of all, I am stunned that you did not have [inaudible] lie on that list.
1:26:18
SM: Well, I you know, me I am, yeah. Get the picture of the certainly the people the dead bodies that me lie to so you can add that.
1:26:31
MC: Yeah. Well, first of all, each one of those to me, ended up being and we did not know at the time those photographs ended up being turning points in our movement. I was each one of those who just said, they are like, they are just like seared in my memory. And-and then I realized just how powerful a picture is worth 100 words, 1000- whatever word you want to use. They just tear it. You did not. You did not even have to say anything. You just look at these pictures and you realize they are their icon, iconic. We are on it. Yeah, yep.
1:27:01
SM: I am going to mention some names here in a minute. But I want to mention three quotes too. And I would like your thoughts in terms of which one made define the boomer generation more than the other, or if all three define the generation. One of them is the one that Malcolm used all the time by any means necessary, through all those posters but he, he went to his grave with that statement, even though he had gone to Mecca, coming back and saying that all white people were devils by any means necessary. The second one is Bobby Kennedy, who I think he took Henry David Thoreau's quote, but it was you do some men see things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not. And a lot of people remember that from Bobby. And the third one is just from the painter, Peter Max, who is well known artists of that era. And he had a very famous painting that a lot of college students put on their wall and on that painting said you do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, or we will come together. Now those are three different statements from three different kind of angles. Is anyone define the boomer generation more than the other? Or are the is it a combination of all three?
1:28:15
MC: Well, I have to tell you, I really, I really take exception to Malcolm X is one of by any means necessary, correct? That puts me the back in that, you know, do not get caught. That is me. That is my personal thing. Bobby Seale, I had issues with as a person so I probably go with the latter, but I do not remember that that well that latter one. The third one-
1:28:34
SM: Yeah that was Max's posters. Yeah. I am going to mention some names now and just your response to them as people. Okay, and then from the era. Amie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin.
1:28:52
MC: We will know them, certainly, I do not know. I mean, you know, I mean, if I had to go on a scale of yes, I like them a lot or not. I mean, I do not know. I mean, I did not know him personally, and I, you know, I am sure they had a role to play. I do not know, I am not I am not impressed. I do not know what else to say.
1:29:15
SM: Let us get into the Black Panthers. And because there is five or six of them here, and of course, there is Elijah. There is Eldridge Cleaver. There is Kathleen cleaver. There is Huey Newton. There is Bobby Seale. There is Angela Davis. The- one of course that was assassinated in in Chicago and just that, and of course, Stokely Carmichael, and H. Rap Brown, they are all black panthers.
1:29:39
MC: Well, the only two I will tell you, I will tell you what, how many of them are still alive?
1:29:45
SM: Well, I know that H. Rap Brown's alive. He is in jail. Yeah. And Bobby Seale is alive. Mm hmm. And so is Kathleen, she is a lawyer in Atlanta, a very successful lawyer. So, uh.
1:29:58
MC: She was Just here and Durham. I would say of all of them may course I am still concerned about the male thing. If I had to put a sympathy level on things, I mean, when I say sympathy if I had to put a level on, you know, okay. I do not know I have I have a lot of respect for Kathleen Cleaver and Angela Davis. This is women within the Panthers.
1:30:27
SM: Yeah, okay. How about Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew?
1:30:33
MC: You know what they have they actually ended up playing [audio cut] into these two people, they probably without realizing it has brought us on more. If I could say it that way, Steve. They really ended up being motivators. And then we saw of course in the end, why? Yeah.
1:30:55
SM: But they motivated because they were bad.
1:30:59
MC: Oh, yeah. When people would win We were on a roll about what to do about what was happening with this war and Richard Nixon and remember when he got elected and-and, and what was like, you know, unprecedented numbers it did not then we realized it did not matter how many people voted for you, you were still a crook and you were still bad and you were wrong and-and we saw what happened. He had to leave office. I mean, talk about a defining moment. And what-what happened to Agnew, did not he go off to jail, what happened to him?
1:31:24
SM: He got indicted. He never went to jail. But yeah, if I saw him was at Nixon's funeral, he was on TV, and he was walking around like no one wanted to talk to him. [laughs] He never I think he paid-paid a penalty, but I do not think he ever went to jail. But you do Gene McCarthy and George McGovern.
1:31:43
MC: Well, I think you know, I have to tell you, just real quick, I think for a lot of people, there was a lot of people who said do not bother to vote, it does not make a difference. And I think between Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern, a lot of us who were told do not vote, it does not make a difference, people begin to turn toward electoral politics as another tool for possibly making change because up until then it was all in the street. Mm hmm. It was a protest, but people begin to realize maybe the importance of the vote and-and Eugene McCarthy and McGovern probably did more to seal that as another avenue of protest, the power of the vote.
1:32:20
SM: Timothy Leary and Daniel Ellsberg.
1:32:25
MC: I knew them both and I got to work for Timothy Leary, of course, LSD. You know, I have to tell you, though, I took one trip and I did was only did not last long because I could not handle it. But I always wondered what the what the impact of LSD was on our society. I do not know if it was good. I am not so sure that it was good. Was the he was, you know, part of that scene? And Denver? What can I say the Pentagon Papers, I still know Dan to this day? And-and if anything, I think it showed me Steve that you can reach someone. You know what Daniel Ellsberg did for the movement after we realized the role that he played meant that you could not write anyone off that you never knew who you could impact and if you if you just told people you do not count, you will never matter we do not like you. If you do not leave an opening for them you do not know the consequences. And look what happened with Daniel Ellsberg.
1:33:15
SM: You are right. You are right and a lot of people and I learned something later that he was a very proud marine. Yeah, when he was young. and that is what-
1:33:26
And that was what was so amazing about this man when you think about the life he led, but look, and look at the impact of what happened with him and the people he met and just hearing stories of people's lives and that was a lesson and I know for a lot of us passivist type. We have always been told you never shut the door on people you never know whose life will impact but a lot of the movement was angry in trust. And you never gave anyone space to say that I can change or I have a role to play and then only to find out and you know, who was Daniel Ellsberg before he did that he was just a guy working at Rand unite. Right? And look at the role this guy played unbelievable.
1:34:00
SM: How about John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy?
1:34:07
MC: You know, there was a theory KKK Kennedy, King, Kennedy, I remember hearing that I was sitting in on the mall in resurrection city. That was the last project King was working on with the poor people's campaign. Kennedy had killed in Spiro Agnew (19)63, King had been killed. And we were sitting in the mall and we heard about Bobby Kennedy and I am thinking someone wanted these people gone. On the other hand, the Kennedy, the Kennedy thing I mean, as a woman, I am done with these men messing around. Cannot they keep it in their pants? What is the deal? You know? So, you find that out that out about a guy but for all intents and purposes, he was the president as I knew a man and he got assassinated and-and all that but you know, I do not know Kennedy's are not like walking on water for me, but yet that was this I think our innocence was taken from us with-with the first one not
1:34:58
SM: Bobby but with john F. Kennedy. How about Lyndon Johnson and Hubert Humphrey?
1:35:04
MC: Well, I guess the more we find out about Lyndon Johnson, you know, you get to know on the other hand, I would say that in terms of the Civil Rights Movement, what a pivotal role this man played. And as a white guy from Texas that does sit there and do the stuff he did, without knowing all the background, but look at the role he played down in the Civil Rights Movement stuff. And I know he did not, he had a lot of flak for that, but it turned out to be historic. who was the other person?
1:35:31
SM: It was Hubert Humphrey.
1:35:34
MC: I do not know much about Hubert Humphrey. I do not remember anything that really stuck out in my mind about him.
1:35:40
SM: How about Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan.
1:35:45
MC: Well, I just remember Goldwater, you know, just thinking of Republicans and you know, and then he kind of scared me because I remember when he was when he was running, there was some race stuff going on, or some folks were right. Ronald Reagan was interesting, because like, I remember asking, how does the governor and how does the former movie star remember does the former movie store become the governor of California before he becomes president? And I remember Ronald Reagan for one key reason People's Park Ronald Reagan governor sent in sent in in the-the we call those state the tanks into Berkeley. Right? And I said once again well this is this this country has no shame.
1:36:25
SM: He is directly linked to the Free Speech Movement to at Berkeley and (19)63, (19)64 because he was the governor then so the battle when-
1:36:35
MC: He had the right is some of the most tumultuous moments in Berkeley. So, when government Reagan was governor but people spark will forever I remember that why are we having tanks and people with bayonets and-and the park around this damn piece of property? But let me share something with you Steve. Remember we said earlier about do it but do not get caught. Mm hmm. I remember I remember it was Mayday being called whoever these people were calling for people to come take that fence down. This is when you had National Guard in tanks with bayonets drawn wire around that piece of property there in Berkeley. And you had these organizers telling people to come in down here and take this fence down. And I remember the night before the war resisters league and Roy Kepler said we have to have an emergency meeting. We were going to stand in between the protesters in front of us, the barbed wire behind us and the National Guard behind us to make sure no violence happens on this day. And we that Steve and my knees were knocking I will never forget that day as long as I live. And the biggest compliment we got as pacifists, we heard people say, Oh, man, we could have done something that those damn pacifists had not gotten in our way. That was one of those moments and all the guys would tell people to go down and take their takedowns where would they you could not find them for nothing. They were not around. Wow. And I thought can you put people's lives in jeopardy you are calling for these people to go take that fence down. Maybe you could not find them if you could try and I thought this is so irresponsible. But we ended up being able to not have a violent action on that day because of us to intervene as pacifist between the National Guard behind us and the protesters in front of us at Berkeley in People's Park.
1:38:12
SM: I remember the book that called Berkeley at war written by [W. J] Rorabaugh it is a great book. And that is all in there. Yeah, Dr. Benjamin Spock and Daniel and Philip Barragan.
1:38:26
MC: Thank you Dr. Spock, who knew that a guy who worked as baby book and there you go again, the guy who wrote the book on having babies and what you do with babies and look at the role he played and the Barragan brothers to be Catholic priest to do what they did go to jail and I think for a lot of people they really created this whole wonderful faith based kind of understanding the role of people of faith in any movement we have they really they-they sealed it and symbolized it and but did not want to do that went to jail to that ended up marrying one of the Barragan’s, we do not know about her.
1:39:01
SM: Yeah no, we do. She runs Jonah house in Baltimore, Elizabeth McAllister, she is.
1:39:07
MC: Elizabeth McAllister, for a lot of women, once again, no disrespect to Dan and the two guys, but for a lot of women, it was her as a woman and as a nun doing that, you see what I mean? I think people are forgetting the role of how important women are when you do these things to have a role in that some of that stuff.
1:39:26
SM: One of the one of the important things because I have met, I was at the funeral for Philip. I went there because he was spoke on our campus with Elizabeth and so did Daniel and I have interviewed Daniel for my book here, and that is that they respected women and women and Catholic nuns were as important as Catholic priests in the movement and I have not seen any sexism or anything. On the part of those two men. Because when Philip was there, oftentimes Elizabeth was there. And sometimes when Philip went to jail. Then Elizabeth took care of their three kids. When Elizabeth went to jail. He took care of the kids so it is absolutely yeah.
1:40:04
MC: And by the way, I did not mean anything. I did not mean to be [inaudible] them. I think what happens is that, once again, the media what they tend to just remember I told you about Cesar Chavez and it is weird stuff is that when they are writing their pieces, rather than being rare than them getting it like you just talked about, they always end up defaulting toward only talking about the man. Good. That is all. I mean, I am sorry. I cannot be. Yeah.
1:40:29
SM: Well, there is truth to that. Robert McNamara and George Wallace.
1:40:34
MC: But the thing I love about McNamara toward the end of the day when he when he was not it recently, where he ended up thinking when he asked, he said, I made a mistake. And McNamara was one of the people that we kept on saying you were so wrong about the Vietnam War policy, he would not back off it. But then as we saw Time went by and he said, you know what, I think I might have been wrong on this. So, there you go again, but how many years that we have to wait to hear that knowledge and George Wallace. You No. for me and I think our generation who can forget George Wallace standing in the door of town and Alabama saying is not no nigger coming through these doors at this high school, right? And at the same time when he got shot and he was in a wheelchair and very woman, he said that too. They stood together and I was in tears on that picture and I thought about whether he was sincere or not. That just showed you that a thing called the civil rights movement in which people would be murdered. Just for the right be equal. Here is this white Southern man and a chair apologizing to the very woman is saying I am sorry. And then you have Jesse Helms here in the North Carolina never once apologized, even into the death. Fringe, and they are both gone now, but [inaudible] yep.
1:41:51
SM: The other things are just the presidents and boomers’ lines, which is Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford. Just your thoughts on those two presidents.
1:42:00
MC: Well, Jimmy Carter, a southern peanut farmer to become president, that was that was like, oh, and who was the other person? Gerald Ford? I was like, What the hell? I mean, how did he get in there? I mean, man who knows? But he was-was not he like an orphan? What was he? I mean, I could relate to him because listen, he like adopted or something.
1:42:21
SM: Not quite sure. I know that took obviously, he pardoned Nixon, which did not go over but Pete that one? No, it did not go about, you know, what was going on with that people think he did it, though. He did help and healing the nation by doing so. So, it is a controversial moment.
1:42:37
MC: Everything is controversial. And he kept on falling a lot. Did not he fall? Yes. And-
1:32:44
SM: He hit people with golf balls. A couple of other presidents George Bush Senior. He was the gentleman who said that the Vietnam syndrome is over. And of course, we are not talking about Reagan. But Reagan. Reagan said we are back. We are going to build the army up again. America is back. We are going to love Living in America where we did not supposedly in the (19)70s in the (19)60s, so both George Bush Senior and Reagan both played a part in this, what they think was the ending of the Vietnam syndrome.
1:43:13
MC: Right? Well, I remember being scared to death of Bush Senior because he was once head of the CIA. What do we think of the CIA? We said, this is the guy that president of this country, he scared me.
1:43:23
SM: And the last two are, of course, our Bill Clinton and President Bush Jr. And I say this because in my interviews, not the early interviews, I did not include them. But in the latter interviews that I have had this year, in the last couple years, I have said, most people say that when you look at Bill Clinton and George Bush, they-they epitomize the boomer generation, with the qualities about who they are. When people say that what do you think the qualities that these two men have that label them boomers?
1:43:54
MC: Well, that is interesting, because I would have to say on first glance, I remember I did say that, put it in would end up being like our first sixties Example of because he was the first guy that never served in the military. He was the first guy. You know, literally the president of this country because it was so that was almost a way you could judge about the (19)60s kind of going on. Is that because he was the first president, post (19)60s generation? So, that is-that is kind of what I meant. On the other hand, I do not I would not put him together with that. I mean, when I think about the (19)60s, I, you know, he was not what was he doing? He was not around. Hillary was not around, I guess what Hillary was doing some stuff. So, that is what I meant about my memory. But, you know, I remember working on his campaign and after, after, after, what did he come right after Reagan. Right. Bush came in.
1:44:43
SM: George Bush, he came after senior George, Bush Sr.
1:44:42
MC: Yeah, I remember working hard and thinking about the fact that we would get someone and the reason why right. The reason why I am quitting stood out because he was the first president willing to talk to the gay and lesbian community and having them having us be a part of his campaign. I thought that is amazing. And a lot of rested on Clinton and I loved him until many Monica Lewinsky and I thought he is just like every other guy out there. That was disappointing. But, you know, Clinton had a really pivotal role to play. He was there for eight years from the south. Again, by this time I am in North Carolina. So, yeah.
1:45:15
SM: And George Bush himself, you do not like him, but what were qualities that may link him as a boomer because he is a boomer.
1:45:24
MC: So, you know what is interesting, but you know, let us look at the difference between and George W. Bush, Jr. There is a qualitative difference right there. The top has not have nots. And that was interesting about Bill too, you know, coming from a family where it is basically his mother raised me down south, he does not have a whole lot of money, he is bright. And then you look at someone like George W. Bush and I worked in Florida, by the way, Steve in the 2000 election campaign. And this man was never elected. He was selected by one vote, and I will never forget that this man should never have been president. And Florida was it was a disaster. And, and I am just glad he has gone. I do not you know, and I would never put it I would not ever say he is a person of the (19)60s. I mean, he might have been born in that time, but not his lifestyle, not the way this guy was raised. Well, I want to-
1:46:16
SM: My final questions is just about you, because I am what makes you continue to do what you do knowing that throughout your life, some of the things that you stood up for, you have been some people look at you as a threat, or they do not. They do not like you for some reason, and how have you been able to deal with it? You have a lot of supporters and some people are not supporters. But I have a question here. I can read my writing here. You created the National Black Justice Coalition, which is for black LGBT individuals to fight racism and homophobia was-was there resistance in the black community? To you like there was toward Dr. King when he had many members of the African American community mad at him because he was against the Vietnam War. He saw the bigger picture whereas some of the other civil rights leaders said you got to concentrate on racism you cannot concentrate. So, you just-just your thoughts on that question and in any way, you respond?
1:47:22
MC: Well, first of all, I am really glad that you highlighted that about King because I think a lot of people missed under-, missed that point that this was such a romanticizing about, about Martin Luther King, that when he took that, what I would proceed, he just positions- he has ever took in his career was to say we have to look beyond civil rights and what is going on with that war in Vietnam. He took hell. And like you said, People said do not do it, do not go there and he was willing to do it. And I am not a conspiracy, I am not a conspiracy theorist, Steve, but the death of this man down in Memphis, Tennessee, helping the garbage workers down there. You have to wonder who had it out for who, that is what I meant about. I do not know who to trust anymore. But I know that he took a lot of flak, because they said, you know, do not go there. On the other hand, I think that was interesting because King was the bridge in a way, Steve, now that I think about it. Remember I told you said a lot of us were too young for the Civil Rights Movement, but old enough for Vietnam? Yes. So, who was who was the bridge builder on that? It was Dr. Martin Luther King when he gave this famous speech at the church up in Harlem. Mm hmm. I mean, the-the church up in New York Riverside Church when he gave this famous Vietnam, yep. And I think there was a generation of folks that said, you know, I was not down south, here is a man talking about Vietnam and then we would not take it off and went running with it. So, I just say that because I was just thinking historical links that be it but you know, it is what is interesting for me is like, I think part of it is because I was orphaned I have nothing I have to lose about being out as a black lesbian. And for those of us who have nothing to lose, I do not care what people think about me I have things I have got to say and try to get the work done. I am now 62 I have never had my life threatened but I have had people tell me I am terrible and I am awful.
1:49:16
SM: Mm hmm.
1:49:17
MC: But when I think about when I started talking about that a long time ago and where we are now, and thinking how far we have gotten when you have a black man who has the five national co-chairs for his campaign, who are out lesbians working on his campaign to get him elected called Barack Obama and I am one of them. Look how far we have come did we ever think that would ever happen so for me my work is easier everyday this slips by not-not let it does not get worse it gets- people are getting it now.
1:49:50
SM: Well I will tell you one thing one thing after reading the information on your background longevity is part of your legacy. It is ongoing commitment, and I would like you to make a few comments on the, uh, song, the organization that you work for, how it was started, and how it is going, and what and what it is doing for others and a little bit about that Stonewall award, did you receive that? Define, you know, because it was given to us. So, a song first.
1:50:18
MC: Well, you know, as to you know, there was a great quote, and I and I am not the only one who has made it, Steve, but I know this has always been Remember I said it earlier about the equality and justice being the philosophical underpinning about why a lot of us hang in so long. That has always been that has always been what has driven me is equality and justice for all. But the other quote that I love Steve, that keeps me going is "Do not mourn, organize. And if there is a need, fill it".
1:50:44
SM: Wow. Mm hmm.
1:50:49
MC: We saw when I you know, living here in the south, I have never seen so much anti science with movement people. Then, then when I moved to the south, I mean, we are talking about my people, gay and lesbians. We are organizing our first conference here, this is how song got started. We were organizing a gay and lesbian conference to the gay and lesbian taskforce. They do an annual conference called creating change every year. And this year because of another side law that they decided for the first time ever in 1993, to have that conference here in Durham, North Carolina. And a lot of us got together and said, here, I was with the warrior sisters League, and I said, yeah, we will help organize it. And so here is the phone call, we started getting, well, is there an airport down there? Are the roads paved? What kind of food we going to eat? And I am saying, wait a minute. These are people coming to our conference down in Durham, North Carolina.
1:51:43
SM: Mm hmm.
1:51:48
MC: And the final one was, where are the roads paved? And I said, Well, maybe we better do a workshop about what it means to be of color. Queer, in the South and that workshop was so well attended back in 1990. That became the foundation of what is now called southerners on new ground, right? Because we were trying to connect the issues of race and class and culture and gender and sexual identity. And understanding that all those isms are so connected and that when we do our work, we will be equally as concerned about gay and lesbians in the south as we would people who are farmworkers down here. And that became the foundation that would now is in our 15th year, and we are still going.
1:52:28
SM: That is excellent. And then the Stonewall award, you received that and what was the criteria? And how did you respond when you heard about it? And what does it mean to receive that award?
1:52:42
MC: Well it is quite an honor. I think the Stonewall would have to be put on the level of you know, if you get the Nobel Peace Prize, I do not know if you wanted to try to put something you know, close to what it would be. The Stonewall award was always given to people who were doing work in the queer community that really was that they recognize it acknowledged it and I think the first one I got I think it was 10,000 $5,000 check. Remember, it was a chunk of change, but it was really more of the acknowledgement um, it was surprised to me quite frankly because like a lot of people I just do the work because I know it has to get done. So, I am not interested in or not thinking about am I going to get acknowledgement for it, but to have been, and they do not tell you in advance, you are going to get it in fact, I came home to a FedEx package and in it-it said, dear Miss Carter, we want to tell you that, you know, we want to congratulate you on getting one of the five Stonewall awards. And there is a check enclosed and it was you know, whatever [audio cuts off]
1:53:41
SM: Just tape just click here you go, go ahead.
1:53:46
MC: Oh-
1:53:47
SM: You got the award. You were just it was just the point where you were saying you have got the award because-
1:53:52
MC: Oh, because they just get that there is an anonymous you do not know you are going to get it and you get nominated for it and the only way you know you have gotten it is when they send you a letter of congratulations and a check. And so, I came home one day I was living up in Maryland. I came home one day and there was a FedEx package waiting for me and I opened it up and, and it was a letter saying, dear Miss Carter, and we want to acknowledge and tell you, you know, congratulations, you are one of the five. Mm hmm. It is the Stonewall award and it was a check. I think it was for $10,000 I think. So, what I was saying though, Steve, is that I a lot of us do this work. You do not do it because you are going to get anything for it. But it is nice when you get the acknowledgement and recognition it was just came out of the blue.
1:54:39
SM: The I forgot to ask you what you thought of Gloria Steinem, Bella Epps, Betty Friedan, Shirley Chisholm, some of the leaders of the women's movement.
1:54:51
MC: Thank goodness for these women. I mean from so many of them, they are such role models. I just think about I know for me as a as a young woman, Black feminist lesbian and you are out here looking for other women who were strong and strident and believe in with their cause was just wonderful, amazing women and the roles that they played the cursory and someone like Gloria Steinem I think is already just turned 70 she was just here and look with this woman did Bella ABS suck, you know, elected official and feisty as can be, and Shirley Chisholm, black, you know, and, and, and it is just awesome. Now, I will tell you this, Steve, I think one of the qualities that I loved about these women is that they always said, it is not about me, you can be doing this too and you should be doing this and the ability to impart that kind of go out there and get this done. I did not see a whole lot of men saying that. Men do it more better now. But the women were just so much more into passing it on and you can do it and go for it and-and oh my gosh.
1:56:01
SM: That is a real that is a really good point. Because in Dr. Martin Luther King speeches, he would you know, he I know, I wish I had him in the room today to ask him what he feels about Martin Luther King Day because I think he would be very honored and very pleased, but if he had not been assassinated. And we are still in his (19)80s today and alive. I he has- he always said it was about we not me. Yeah, that is it. And what you are saying is that women leaders have always been saying, itis about we not me, were some of the male leaders in the early on, not so much all of the day, but were-were more about their own prestige and power. Is that- am I giving that right?
1:56:43
MC: Yes absolutely, yes-yes. Right. And you know, and I think part but I think it is a two-way problem. I think the media, and once again, I mean, the media it is just so interesting to me, I have gone to Germany. It is the only time I have ever been out of I have been to Germany and Zimbabwe. And what is so fascinating to me that this media is so personality driven? So that, you know, maybe you have been a demonstration, and you will hear the media come up and go, well, who's your spokesperson? Mm hmm. You know, versus Can I just talk to someone here about why you are here. And so, the media seems to be this obsession of who is-who is-who is-who is your leader. And of course, if you say, you are a leader, and people think, well, let us kill this person, because we get rid of them. We get rid of the movement that when I said earlier, no, it is not about killing anyone or offing any one or doing something to any one person because what you believe in is so dispersed with the people doing the work, that that movement goes on with or without you, because you have stood these values and women have, I think women have always gotten that instinctively. See, so their style is a lot more of Louis. You know, so and I just appreciate that. Oh, and I think but that is changing even now. I mean, you know, there is so much tough the young people today, and what you will get is like to scan lesbian thing. That is why we are making so much progress, I believe it is like, you know, what is the big deal? Who cares? You know, how am I identified? You know, who am I? And, and then Obama you know he is multiracial. Now you have got kids who are tri-racial and quad-racial and family being defined and we are in an amazing historic moment. I am so glad I have lived long enough to see all this. I am just I am just every day I get wake up. I am blown away.
1:58:25
SM: Well, I think that one of the magic moments in my life was when he was elected, then it back because to me, it was very special. And it is not always just because he is African American. I, I am so happy that they have seen that in my lifetime. But it is because of who he is and what he stands for and how articulate he is. And yes, he is the first ever I but peeps. What really astounds me is how people continue to try to find the Achilles heel in him constantly. And I think that is because they are upset that he won. Yes, I think it is-it is about they are jealous. They are-they are just plain jealous of him. And how could this happen? And many, many people who may have been against all these efforts back in the (19)60s and (19)70s, who are now boomers or younger, you know, but especially boomers, they can understand the battles that all groups have gone through. Finally, you know, a lot of the efforts are, are successful, some any, what do you think the lasting legacy when the best history books are written on the boomer generation, what the lasting legacy will be when they talk about this generation, and I mean, a generation, you know, as someone said to me, someone told me once they thought boomer generation was about white men. Well, I am talking I am trying to in this book to make the argument about everybody who was a boomer, right, whether-
1:59:54
MC: I would have to say I think I think that our generation will go down as the generation of hope. And I think our generation will go down as a generation of change. And sort of articulating more than that. I mean, I am just thinking back what I said, Steve to be in a generation in which we saw such-such a way to come into with the killing of the president and then you know, King and all that credible social movements that are going on and we-we sustain them. We show that, despite money and power and all that everyone to at us to stop us from stopping a war and also just corruption within the government. We saw that through. And I think the fact that we saw I was thinking about this with King and in fact, Coretta Scott King, lived long enough, no, wait, when did Coretta Scott King die? Was she? I do not think.
2:00:49
SM: Two years ago. I think she died in 2007.
2:00:52
MC: Yeah, because I mean, the fact the fact that you had a family and who they represented and who would know that when King gave his famous speech now of course with the "I Have a Dream" today, um, that Obama and understanding Obama did something amazing to me because I was supporting Hillary from day one. I wanted a woman in there really badly and I think that is going to happen sooner or later but I think history was right and we got Obama. But Obama did something amazing and maybe just swept people off. He said I am not I did not get this because I am a Barack Obama, I got here because of naming the names, you know, all the women and the people who had to fight for everything they had, as first citizens of this kind. I think people are either jealous of it. Do not believe that he could just be sincere. Like, you know, is he for real? Yeah, yeah, he is for real. And, and to realize that and for you and I to see the fruition of that. It was just amazing. Steve, I look up some times and I had to pinch myself and said this really happened.
2:01:51
SM: It is-it is almost like and again, I-I never met Dr. King, but I have read an awful lot about him. In fact, when I am done with this book, I want to do another book just on him, which is going to be an oral history on the Vietnam War and his decision to make that I just want that and interview people just on that issue alone, because not enough has been done. But he, he was the one we did a program in Westchester University where I brought Lynn Washington in and Dr. Megan Kate, a professor at Villanova. And we talked about we were not going to talk about the Big Four, on Dr. King Day, we were going to talk about the unsung heroes of the movement, the people who had died, whose names we will never know, and how important they were in the movement. It was like we were just like you said, there, you get on somebody else's shoulders you get on somebody else's shoulders. It is not about me, it is about we I do not care if my name is ever known, but I did my small part in that moving something forward. So that was, you have made some very important points here. One, one thing, one last question is, is there anything That you thought I was going to ask in this interview that I did not. And you would like to say something or as-
2:03:08
MC: I guess, I guess what I would say there is two things that I was thinking about knowing you were going to do this interview one of them. To me, Steve is the interesting demographic shift in this country. Mm hmm. And they say roughly between 2040 and 2050, this country movie majority people of color. That is profound. And, and I just wonder, when you think about that, 2040, 2050 I just, I just turned 62. I will be 62 this year, so I will still be around. But I am just wondering the impact of the (19)60s generation where I thought, the racial divide, but I thought I saw a lot of getting it about the equality thing across gender, certainly across orientation and color. I have a feeling that maybe the (19)60s generation people of our era might have a really important role to play when that transition continues to play. play out, you know, with more and more color, not less. So that might be something down the line to think about, you know, it is just what is what does that mean? What-what has that meant? So that was one thing. The other is just I think this interesting thing of what I seen were in a way the degeneration of the (19)60s really had a profound impact on our what we now see as our amazing, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender movement. I it is just-it is just astounding to me how fast this is, how fast this is happening. But a lot of the people who are at the forefront of this were people who came out of that antiwar movement who were lesbian, gay, out visible. And, and at the time, were told what was that got to do with anything and here we sit now with a lot of us out here being on the front lines of what I would perceive-
2:04:47
SM: So, you are, you are pretty, so my guess is you are pretty proud of the boomer generation gay and lesbian, America.
2:04:56
MC: My Gosh! Absolutely.
2:04:57
SM: Because that is important because that when I talk about that Boomer generation now I am talking about not only black and white and yellow and red and different ethnic groups from male gender male female but also sexual orientation It is important because they are all part of the boomer generation at it yeah and that is and some people have been disappointed in the boomers because so many went on to raise families make a lot of money and then just forget everything. And others have continued like yourself the longevity but overall, you think the boomer gay lesbian Americans have done quite a bit?
2:05:31
MC: Oh my god, absolutely no doubt about it. Just pivotal, my opinion pivotal and-and, you know, willing to be out there and be visible and the same thing with the women's movement as well. I mean, they that those I think those two movements came out of the antiwar movement, women's movement, bisexual transgender movement. Yeah. And we and here we are still doing it.
2:05:50
SM: So that is excellent. Well, if you have any suggestions of other names of individuals that you see I think would be a good interview. For this project so you can email me. Yeah. And I, you know, I know that when I when I interviewed David Harris, I said, can you get me to interview Joan Baez and all he well he is divorced from her now but still very close to her. You know? Yeah, he lives I think their child they live together in a house in Mill Valley. So, some of the key things in Joan Baez is one I would love to interview and but any of the other I sent a letter to Eleanor Smeal and Gloria Steinem and I remember the person I interviewed on Monday. Well, Gloria Steinem does not do many interviews, so you are lucky if you get anything with her, but-
2:06:39
MC: Ellie Smeal does, she is up there with the feminist majority. I am surprised she heard back from her.
2:06:44
SM: Now I have not heard from her I sent like, these are emails. I have been doing everything by email. And I am not sure sometimes secretaries even pass these on to. So, I emailed Gloria Steinem and I emailed them. Eleanor Smeal, and I asked David but David just simply said she is too busy. David Harris, for Joan Baez. And so, but there may be other people I am missing here. And so, if you put your thinking cap on about people, not only the gay and lesbian community, but female leaders who would be great to head because right now about I would say about 70 percent are men and 30 percent are women. A lot of a lot of the women like Phyllis Schlafly and Linda Chavez and conservatives, I did not get a response from them. So, some people just do not respond by Janet Snark, a female Vietnam vet on the board she did not respond to there is some people that, you know, I am making the effort, but I need more female voices. So, no question.
2:07:41
MC: Let me think about that. And I have your contact info. Steven. So, let me let me think about that and try to send you some folks that I might know. That would be great. Like I said, you know, as we saw out of that movement, we saw the feminist movement, the women's movement, whatever and off and on either side of the sense, but I am also thinking women of color as well. You know some yeah.
2:08:00
SM: That cat free. I have not. I am going to be interviewing Christy Kiefer, I have that link, Sam. I got her because she is on the list and there is some Professor Roma. I have Pauline Roma do not ever name for she is in San Francisco State. She hasn't responded yet. That was another list. I certainly sent an email to Angela Davis. I have not got a response from her.
2:08:21
MC: But yet.
2:08:22
SM: Now, but Bettina Aptheker, I am going to interview her in January because she is coming back east Anna for five months, because I guess she is on sabbatical and she is going to be teaching at Columbia so I can, uh, interview her in person as opposed to on the phone. But-
2:08:42
MC: Where are you located?
2:08:43
SM: I am in Westchester, Pennsylvania, right outside Philadelphia, and I am about same age that you are I graduated from SUNY Binghamton in 1970. I was a history major. Then, then I went off to Ohio State to grad school and student personnel in higher ed and my advisor was Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, a 29-year-old African American male from Southern Illinois University, University of Illinois, Champaign Urbana, and he had a tremendous impact on my life in grad school because our graduate program was all about, you know, the-the issues that were going on between black and white Americans at that time. And so that is kind of my specialty area. I am involved with those issues. My whole life. And-and he is, he has been at Johns Hopkins University for quite a few years, and I believe he is just retired. So, I kind of stay in touch with him every year. We go to lunch. Okay, so he has been an inspiration along with my parents, but yeah, but this is I love history. I loved interviewing people and I love interviewing people. I feel comfortable with everybody. Yeah-yeah, because you know, but I feel comfortable with Vietnam vets, I feel, yeah, I just I love doing this and it is, and I would have left my university position to work on this to make you know, to continue the process. And hopefully young people will read this and they will learn from it because it is all about modeling.
2:10:06
MC: I think it is great.
2:10:08
SM: Okay, well, um, I guess that is it.
2:10:11
MC: Okay. Well, I just want to-
2:10:14
SM: Go ahead.
2:10:16
MC: I just cannot hear you. I am getting feedback. Can you still hear me? Yes. Huh. Okay. But I wanted to say to you is that I think your timing is awesome, because I was sitting here thinking is that as we keep on aging on in our memories is so crisp and clear, but the best, honing in on this, I just think it is wonderful. It is fantastic. And I love the question asking, and I just, I just feel like you are, you know, I do not know, I think it is just fortuitous. And I think what you said about wanting to write a book about Martin Luther King and his decision to do that Vietnam Yes. section that that is that that someone has to explore that if you take that on, because that is why was that not part of any written history and I think people were so nervous because there was a lot of drama. And yet that was one of the most historical pivotal moments, in my opinion, not only his civil rights, and all of a sudden understanding about the word Vietnam that touched so many different aspects in American society and King who knew that you know what the consequences that was but normally exploited. So, for you to put energy into that with being incredible.
2:11:20
SM: Well, I have tried to link up but you know, I have even written a letter to Martin Luther King or emailed Martin Luther King, the third and Joe Lowery. I did not get a response from them. A lot of the bigger you know, they do not know me from probably a hole in the wall. But the question is that I always ask is, are their secretaries and the people that work for them passing these up to them? And then is oftentimes that I find out that is where the problem is so.
2:11:42
MC: Or could it be they do not want to go there? If you thought of that?
2:11:45
SM: Yeah, that is-that is a possible use. Couple university presidents said they did not want to be interviewed because obviously if they were talking about boomers that could affect the bottom line in their university. Because I wanted to interview Leon Botstein and Bard, and Dr. Mote at the University of Maryland because I think they are both brilliant and both them so they had no time. Well, I know they had time, they had time for my- to bring my students to meet them, but they do not have time for this. And that is because they are still university presidents and but I am going to, you know, in the back of my mind when they leave their university positions if you do not think this project may be over, but if you do not think I am going to talk to them about that or king, that is another thing because I like both of them. They are really great brother. Yeah. So yeah, the only other thing I want to mention is I take pictures of all of my people and obviously I cannot take pictures of you because you are too far away. So I will need pictures of you eventually not right away. And maybe at some juncture in the next six months, I might be able to see you and I will take your picture. because that will be.
2:12:45
MC: Do you need to take them through something you can use it or I can-
2:12:49
SM: Yeah you can, you can send them to me some pictures that I can use now and if by some chance between now and next few nights, I link up I can take pictures of you. That would be great because I am taking pictures with my camera of everybody. Okay, but I do need a picture if I can. And I tell you what an honor to thank you for taking two hours and 20 minutes of your time to be interviewed.
2:13:13
MC: Oh, this is awesome. And I want to thank Callie for passing in the name on that. See, that is what I meant about women willing to go ahead and say hear some other person hears. I mean, hi. And I just talked about longevity. Come on.
2:13:24
SM: Yeah, well, I, you know, Holly, I did not know how I met Holly. But she did not remember meeting me back at Kent State in 1974 when I was just in my first job. So, but I only a couple years ago, she came to our campus and then she did a program for activist series. And then I mentioned to her that I was writing a book, but I did not do I did not contact her for over two years. And then I finally contacted her through her agent. And then her agent said, Yes, you would like to do the interview and I sent the questions ahead and that juncture did the interview and then I asked her if she would list some names and so she listed seven names and another one is Dr. Brunch or Bunch. I think her name is yes, she has not responded either, but, but I am, I am thankful that she gave me those names. So-
2:14:13
MC: No, that is great. Well, like you said, that is what that you know. 2021 That is great. Okay, Steve, well, let us stay in touch. I got your contact info send a couple of pictures. And you know, I just I am just so thankful and happy to tell you till someone asked his questions. I never think about this stuff. It is like I am looking ahead, you know, and like what we are doing now and realizing we have to think about where we have come from as well. So.
2:14:35
SM: Okay, and send me some names. And if you know Joan Baez, St. Louis is great guy you interviewed your former husband and myself will be great for the interview.
2:14:45
MC: So, I do know I do not I do not know where to pick up the phone. But I know she is sitting down there in Woodside, California. You know, why she tours? I do not even know why she is still out on the road touring. It is amazing and all her audience of course is all from the (19)60s but right you know, it comes to Durham Once a year, so who knows? Maybe.
2:15:03
SM: Alright, well, thanks again. Okay. Thanks, Steve. Have a great day and carry on.
2:15:08
MC: Thank you.
2:15:09
SM: Bye now.
(End of Interview)
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Description
2 Microcassettes
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mandy Carter
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carter, Mandy ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Human rights workers; African American sexual minorities; Carter, Mandy--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the "1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005."
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.32a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.32b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-14
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
135:15
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/24cbddf210928d0c1a8c9734a9af1f48.pdf
dd646f7b659c2628ad644818fc23b1a5
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMTON
W N I V E R S I ]
S TAT E U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K
d e e
[4
D E P A R T M E N T
HARPUR JAZZ ENSEMBLE
FEATURING
Tony Kadleck, Trumpet
7
Thursday, December 3, 2 009
8:00 p.m.
Osterhout Concert Theater
usic and the Harpur Jazz Ensemble
Cosponsored by the Department o f M
�ABOUT THE PERFORMER
PROGRAM
PA RT
D Menza
d
r
a
Groovin’ H
All of Me
S Simons & ( 5 Marks
Blue Bossa..
.
Arranged by Billy Byers
..K Durham
Arranged by Sy Johnson
Everything.......................... Michael Buble’, A. Chang and A. Foster
Arranged by W. Scott Ragsdale
C
a
Sophisticated Lady
What Is Hip?
PART II
r
l
a
B Mintzer
D. Ellington, I. Mills and M. Parish
S. Kupka, E. Castillo and D. Garabaldi
Arranged by Mike Tomaro
Featuring Tony Kadleck
(To be selected from the following)
Can’t Buy Me Love..
..J. Lennon & P. McCartney
Arranged by Tony Kadleck
Desafinado......................................................
. A.C. Jobim
Freddie Freeloader..........................................
.M. Davis
Arranged by Tony Kadleck
Arranged by Tony Kadleck
How Do You Keep the Music Playing? . . . A Bergman & M. Legrand
Arranged by Tony Kadleck
SummertIme
..G. Gershwin
Arranged by Tony Kadleck
TONY KADLECK has been praised as a highly effective sideman, who has lent
his hand to numerous musical activities. H e is currently one of the most sought
after trumpet players in the New York area.
While attending the New England Conservatory in Boston, Kadleck studied
both classical and jazz music, a task that would later benefit him, as he went on
to perform and record with the Boston Pops Orchestra. In 1986, Tony was
asked to join the trumpet section of the Buddy Rich Band, and later that year,
decided to move to New York.
After graduating from the Manhattan School of Music in 1989, Kadleck did
some touring with Frank Sinatra, Barbra Streisand, and Blood, Sweat & Tears.
Eventually, the NY studios kept Tony too busy to leave town, and he found
himself recording with a number of artists, including Luther Vandross, Michael
Jackson, Elton John, and Celine Dion. Kadleck also spends plenty of time
playing a wide variety of live concerts, having performed with Stevie Wonder,
Steely Dan, Ella Fitzgerald, Issac Hayes, and most recently the Count Basie
Orchestra.
In addition to playing on countless jingles and for many films and shows,
Kadleck has also done a great deal of composing. Since he was 15 years old,
Tony has always loved writing music. His debut CD “Extended Outlook",
features eight of his original works, about which Tony says, “There is nothing
more gratifying than hearing spectacular musicians making these songs come
to life.” Kadleck has drawn upon many musical experiences to form his own
voice, which can be heard in both his playing and in his writing throughout this
release. The CD features an amazing cast of musicians, including Chuck Loeb,
David Mann, Henry Hey, Jon Herington and Andy Snitzer.
When asked about his musical influences, Kadleck is quick to point out his first
teachers: Bernard Shifrin in Tony’s hometown of Binghamton, NY; and Andre
Come, formerly of the Boston Symphony Orchestra.
Tony is currently a member of many organizations including the Maria
Schneider Jazz Orchestra, the New York Pops, John Fedchock’s NY Big Band,
the Westchester Jazz Orchestra, and John Pizzarelli’s “Swing Seven".
ABOUT THE SERIES
The Harpur Jazz Ensemble studies and performs bigband repertoire and
appears frequently on and off campus. Guests who have appeared in concert
witht his popular ensemble include, among others, Clark Terry, “Slam” Stewart,
Mannny Albam, Urbie Green, Frank Wess, Phil Woods, Jimmy Owens, Marian
McPartland, Steve Brown, Mel Lewis, Slide Hampton, Peter Appleyard, John
Faddis, Rufus Reid, Houston Person, Walter White, and Maceo Parker.
�ABO UT THE H ARPUR JAZ Z ENSEMBLE
The Harpur Jazz Ensemble director, MICHAEL J. CARBONE, is a native of
Utica, New York. He moved to the Binghamton area in 1981 and is an
instrumental music teacher in the Johnson City School district where he is
ed
Director of Concert Band and Jazz Ensemble at the middle school. He join
the Binghamton University music faculty in 1997 and serves as the Director of
the Jazz Studies Program and the Director of the Harpur Jazz Ensemble. He
holds a B.M.E. from the Crane School of Music and a M.M. from Binghamton
g AI
University. Carbone has performed with many wellknown artists includin
Marino, Natalie Cole, Tom my Tu ne, Mel Torme, The Jimmy Dorsey Orchestra,
Danny D’Imperio’s Big Band Bloviation, the Central New York Jazz Orchestra,
and The Temptations.
The 2009 Fall semester o f the Harpur Jazz Ensemble includes the following:
SAXOPHONES
Dan Fagen
Nathan Rose
Dean Papadopoulos
Andy Block
Margaret Hager
BASS
Sam Smith
1% alto
Nick DeFeo
2™ alto
1% tenor
DRUM SET
2™ tenor
Baritone Sax Alex Gregorio
T R U M P E T S (alphabetical order)
Andy Castillo
Tomasz Falkowski
VIBES & DRUM SET
Drew Hanessian
Kim Metaxas
Nicholas Polacco
Carl Sanon
Devan Tracy
PERCUSSION
Keaton Rood
TROMBONES
FLUTE & Alt o Sax
Nicholas Carter
Mo “Reese” Taylor
Kevin Pinkel
Andrew Rosenberger
Stefanie DeVito
PIAN O
Russ Carpenter
VOCALIST
Allie Metcalfe
GUITA R
Kevin Greer
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: PDF / Rosetta
PDF with Rosetta audio/video link
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 sound disc
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:19:58
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153823">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153823</a>
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
PDF Layout
This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous']
Options:
'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width.
'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width.
'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height.
'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height.
'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.)
'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.)
Single
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harpur Jazz Ensemble, December 3, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-12-3b
Description
An account of the resource
Held at 8:00 p.m., December 3, 2009, Osterhout Concert Theater.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kadleck, Tony
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f1e00b958aaf474ac41b24590028168b.pdf
ffaaeb7d166195830c1dcd872068c44d
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMTON
UNIVERSI TY
STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK
FLUTE STUDIO
AND
FLUTECHAMBER CONCERT
Friday,
mber
D e c e2009
10:15 a.m.
Casades us Recital Hall
4,
�Program
Berceuse for Flute and Piano .................................................... Gabriel Faure
(1845-1924)
Katy Spelman, Flute
Chai-Kyou Mallinson, Piano
Allegretto for Flute and Piano, Opus 116 .............................. Benjamin Godard
(1849-1895)
Rebecca Falik, Flute
Chai-Kyou Mallinson, Piano
Minuet and Dance of the Blessed Spirits ................... Christoph Willi bald Gluck
from the opera "Orfeo"
(1714-1787)
Rachel Serwetz, Flute
Chai-Kyou Mallinson, Piano
Serenade for Solo Flute ............................................................... Philip Glass
Prelude
(b.1937)
Caprice
Finale
Jenna Goldin, Flute
Suite for Flute and Piano ... ................................................. Norman Delle Joio
Improvise
(b.1913)
Aria
Emily Morris, Flute
Mark Rossnagel, Piano
Suite de Ballet for Flute and Piano ................ :........... Ralph Vaughan Williams
Improvisation
(1872-1958)
Humoresque
Natalie McCreary, Flute
Mark Rossnagel, Piano
�Binghamton University Flute Trio
Sonatina, Opus 36, No. 5 for Three Flutes .............................. Muzio Clementi
Rondo
(1752-1832)
arranged by Jay Daniels
Variations on "La Ci Darem La Mano" ......................... Ludwig van Beethoven
for Two Flutes and Alto Flute
(1770-1827)
arranged by Arthur Ephross
Aura Lee .......................... ............................ ................................ Traditional
arranged by Ricky Lombardo
Arkansas Traveler ........................................................................ Traditional
arranged by Ricky Lombardo
Binghamton University Flute Trio
Natalie McCreary, Flute
Emily Morris, Flute and Alto Flute
Rachel Serwetz, Flute
Flutists are from the Flute Studio of Georgetta Maiolo
�Binghamton University Music Department's.
UPCOMIN G EVENTS
Friday, December 4th Elizabethan Madrigal Feaste (Harpur Chorale and
Women'sChorus), 6:30 PM, Old Union Hall, $$
Friday, December 4th Masters Recital: Susan Amisano, soprano,
8:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Saturday, December 5th Elizabethan Madrigal Feaste (Harpur Chorale and
Women's Chorus), 6:30 PM, Old Union Hall, $$
Sunday, December 6th Wind Symphony, 3:00 PM - FREE
Anderson Center Chamber Hall
Tuesday, December 8th Percussion Ensemble, 8:00 PM - FREE
Anderson Center Chamber Hall
Thursday, December 10thHoliday Mid-Day Concert, 1:20 PM,
Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Friday, December 11th Holiday Mid-Day Concert, 4:00 PM,
University Downtown Center, FREE
Friday, December 11th Singing Chinese Class Recital, 7:00 PM, Casadesus
Recital Hall, FREE
Saturday, December 12thFaculty Rreworks: Winter Winds (with the
University Symphony Orchestra) - a gala benefit concert for the Music
Department, 8:00 PM, Osterhout Concert Theater, $$
Sunday, December 13th Masters Recital: Jenean Truax, soprano,
3:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Tuesday, December 15th Masters Recital: Jana Kucera, soprano,
7:30 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
, For ticket information, please call the
Anderson Center Box Office at 777-ARTS.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: PDF / Rosetta
PDF with Rosetta audio/video link
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 sound disc
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
41:43
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153826">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153826</a>
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
PDF Layout
This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous']
Options:
'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width.
'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width.
'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height.
'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height.
'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.)
'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.)
FacingCover
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flute studio and flute chamber concert, December 4, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-12-4
Description
An account of the resource
Works of Fauré, Godard, Gluck, Glass, Dello Joio, Vaughan William, Clementi, and Beethoven. Held at 10:15 a.m., December 4, 2009, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Spelman, Katy
Falik, Rebecca
Serwetz, Rachel
Goldin, Jenna
Morris, Emily
McCreary, Natalie
Mallinson, Chai-Kyou
Rossnagel, Mark
Maiolo, Georgetta
Binghamton University Flute Trio
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e165aa0171ea95d87392858cb9adb5b4.pdf
1fefbc8f52a2a7e36e56422d3b0dd8d4
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMTON
U N I V E R S I T Y
State University of New York
d ee
[4
R E P A R T M E N T
UNIVERSITY PE RCUSSION
ENSEMBLE CON CERT
Daniel Fabricius, Conductor
Marc Silvagni, Assistant Conductor
Adam Goldenberg, Xylophone Soloist
Tuesday evening, December 8, 2009
8:00 P M
Anderson Center Chamber Hall
�PROGRAM
Yobel ’ (1978)...
University Percussion Ensemble Personnel
...
...Jesse Ayers
Yobel ’ is a p r a i a wordfor a silver trumpet that announces
i h e Y ear of Jubilee.
Samuel Bae
Adam Goldenberg
Amanda Jacobs
Mike Longo
Overture for Percussion (1997)... .
...Mario Gaetano
Dance Barbaro (
...Phillip Lambro
1
8
5
) . . .
. .
Benjamin Ramos
Keaton Rood
Marc Silvagni
Lee Vilinsky
Andrew Williamson
DANIEL FABRICIUS has been a member of the Binghamton
aoINTERMISSIONoa
The Doomsday Machine (2000). . . . . . .
...Michael Burritt
Ceremomium CIOBT). c o i i i s i s i a i o i i i c i i i i i i i n S
pears
Marc Silvagni, Conductor
Bit O
QRiothas (
1
9
3
2
)
H
a
r
r
y Breuer
Adam Goldenberg, Xylophone
We Three Kings (
2
0
0
9
) ...John Henry Hopkins
Arranged by Daniel Fabricius
University faculty as percussion instructor since 1992 and has also
served as Director of Bands at Owego Free Academy since 1989. He has
been a member of the Binghamton Philharmonic percussion section
since 1982 and is also comfortable performing in popular, rock, jazz, and
other styles. He has played as a freelance percussionist accompanying
national touring artists such as Michael W. Smith, Tommy Tune, Jerry
Vail, Lorrie Morgan, Ringling Brothers Circus, the Smothers Bothers,
and Ella Fitzgerald. He is highly regarded in the region as a percussion
soloist and ensemble player. He has served the New York State School
Music Association as an AllState Percussion adjudicator for many
years. In addition he is the Instrumental Jazz Reviews ed itor of The
School Music News and was the Jazz editor for the recently publ ished
NYSSMA Manual, Edition XXIX. Dan serves on the faculty of the
Binghamton High School Percussion Camp each summer and over the
years h as presented many percussion clin ics at several state conventions
and conferences. He also often serves as a guest conductor for honor
band festivals and has adjudicated Jazz Ensemble and Concert Band
performances at music festivals th roughout New York.
�MARC SILVAGNI is a senior at Binghamton University. He is
currently double majoring in Percussion Performance and Psychology.
He plans on attending graduate school after Binghamton to earn a MSEd
degree in Social Studies. Marc started his music career relatively late in
7” grade under band director and amazing JAZZ drummer Marc Copell.
During the summers following 7” and 8 grade, Marc attended the
Manhattan School of Music Summer Camp and studied under
percussionist Jeff Kraus who taught him about the entire world of
percussion. He then attended St. Francis Preparatory High School in
Fresh Meadows, Queens, and studied under percussionist Mark Teofilo.
In the summer of his sophomore year, Marc and other students, under
teacher David Kobayashi (Binghamton Alum), traveled to Australia and
played with the Tallahassee Winds in the Sydney Opera House for the
Eric Whitacre Festival. Marc began college at Binghamton University
under percussionist Dan Fabricius. Here he has had featured solos with
the Percussion Ensemble and has played with the Harpur Jazz Ensemble,
University Orchestra, Harpur Chorale, Women’s Chorus, and the
Commencement Wind Ensemble. He has also played at the Musica Nova
concert and at Stephanie Lehman’s Masters Recital.
ADAM GOLDENBERG is a graduate of Vestal High School where he
held the positions of Center Snare with the Vestal Marching Band,
Principle Percussionist with the Vestal Concert Band, and was the lead
kit player with the Vestal Jazz Ensemble. During the summer of 2009,
Adam was selected to attend the Leigh Howard Stevens Summer
Seminar; an intensive three week seminar devoted solely to the study of
mallet percussion where he had the chance to attend master classes with
several world renowned percussionists including Gordon Stout, Marta
Klimasara, Thomas Burritt, Michael Burritt, and Percussive Arts Hall of
Fame inductee Leigh Howard Stevens. In his spare time, Adam enjoys
skiing, scuba diving, and pursuing a dual degree in Biochemistry and
Integrated Neural Systems at Binghamton University.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: PDF / Rosetta
PDF with Rosetta audio/video link
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 sound disc
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
34:58
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153829">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153829</a>
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
PDF Layout
This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous']
Options:
'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width.
'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width.
'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height.
'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height.
'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.)
'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.)
Single
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
University Percussion Ensemble concert, December 8, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-12-8
Description
An account of the resource
Held at 8:00 p.m., December 8, 2009, Anderson Center Chamber Hall.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fabricius, Daniel
Silvagni, Marc
Goldenberg, Adam
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7a01c9700dfd7e49241a95c334258f7f.jpg
1f37270d48fddbd2c6d9f3d701d184bc
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b0caa59d6c07c6de15fd224ff0681b36.mp3
a2028080b873b58b312144a5b366c67e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field.
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2009-12-10
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Roger Clegg
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Roger Clegg is the President and General Counsel of the Center for Equal Opportunity. He was the Deputy Assistant Attorney General for both the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. He specializes in legal issues arising from civil rights laws including immigration and bilingual education. Clegg received his Bachelor's degree from Rice University and is a graduate of Yale University Law School. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6531,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Roger Clegg is the President and General Counsel of the Center for Equal Opportunity. He was the Deputy Assistant Attorney General for both the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. He specializes in legal issues arising from civil rights laws including immigration and bilingual education. Clegg received his Bachelor's degree from Rice University and is a graduate of Yale University Law School. </span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Bill Buckley; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Watergate; Richard Nixon; Counter Culture; Hippies; Yippies; The Black Panthers; Baby boom generation; President Obama."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13689059}}">Vietnam War; Bill Buckley; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Watergate; Richard Nixon; Counter Culture; Hippies; Yippies; The Black Panthers; Baby boom generation; President Obama</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
160:15
Subject LCSH
Lawyers; Center for Equal Opportunity; Clegg, Roger--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Roger Clegg
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 10 December 2009
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:04):
Testing. One, two. I was not checking. First off, thank you very much for participating in this project.
RC (00:00:21):
Sure.
SM (00:00:21):
First question I would like to ask is, when you think of the (19)60s what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
RC (00:00:29):
I think of unrest, I guess. The protests, the anti-war protests, civil rights movement, riots, a very unsettled time. I think of the politics. I think of it as being a very political, politicized decade. I should say that I was born in 1955, so by the end of the (19)60s I was certainly politically aware, and was becoming interested in following politics. I was only five or six years old, so less so.
SM (00:01:32):
How did you become who you are? I have been asking this probably for the last 50 people that I have been interviewing. How did you become who you are as a person? Was there some magic moment in your life when you were in high school, college where you kind of knew the direction you were going, or the thought you had? Was there anything during that time when Boomers were young, and you were right in the middle of the Boomers in terms of (19)55 because it goes from (19)46 to (19)64.
RC (00:02:07):
I think in terms of my professional life and what I decided to do as a career, I have always been interested in politics, in history. I do not think that there was one particular moment where it dawned on me that this was something interesting. This is something that I have always been interested in. I think that I have always been a conservative with a libertarian streak. That is been true for a long time as well. And so, you put those two together and I am now a conservative lawyer. I do not think that there was a particular defining moment. That was something that was part of my makeup early on. I did not always want to be a lawyer. I tell people that the course that I took in college that persuaded me to be a lawyer was biochemistry. Up until then, I was thinking also medical school. I just decided, this is my junior year, that I really was more interested and more comfortable, better at political science and history, and things like that. That made the decision for me that I was going to go to law school.
SM (00:04:15):
Did you have role models when you were young?
RC (00:04:18):
I was going to say that it will be interesting to see if you have other people that give you this answer. For conservatives of my generation, I think that a lot of them had to have been influenced by Bill Buckley. He was a hero of mine. At that time, I think that there were not a lot of prominent popular culture conservatives. He was really it. Even if there had been others, he was clearly I think a star. I early on starting reading him, subscribing to National Review, watching him on Firing Line. I think he was a very influential person for me. Later on, I read other conservatives too. When I went to law school, one of my professors was Robert Bork. I was older then. This was the late (19)70s by then. When I was coming of age, Buckley was I think the person who was most influential. Obviously, in my own family, I do not want to ignore my parents. My grandfather was somebody who was also... He was not a lawyer, but he was very interested in politics and I had a close relationship with him. In terms of people outside my family, I would have to say it was Buckley. In fact, I remember when not long after I had come to work here, a guy who was also here left to go to work for National Review. I called him and said, "Look, I would love to shake hands with Wayne Buckley. Do you ever see him? It does not have to be a dinner or anything like that. I just want to meet him." He said, "Well, Buckley is getting older now. He does not come to Washington a lot, but he is going to be in Washington for this event at..." We were talking about ISI before and he was going to be I think honored at some ISI event. He said, "I can introduce you there." I got there and it was this huge event. This was before cellphones and all that. Stupidly, I had not arranged ahead of time where I was going to meet my friend. Anyway, what I decided to do was, everybody had to come through this one entrance and get checked in on the guest list. I got there early so I thought, well I will just hang out here and keep my eye peeled. Sure enough, Buckley came by. And so, I just kind of got in line behind him. At some point he turned around and I stuck my hand out. He was so... This was very not characteristic of him. He was so gracious. I said, "Hi, Roger Clegg. I write for National Review," which I was. I was a contributing editor for National Review Online. He just said, "Oh, hello Roger," and stuck out his hand. "It's good to see you. Have you met my wife? Here is my wife. Have you met my son?" Chris Buckley was with him too and everything. Anyway, that was my big moment, meeting my [inaudible]-
SM (00:09:03):
He came to Westchester University. We had him there, and we had him in Phillips Library for the lecture. He was a cool speaker. He was fantastic. He was very tired though. The issue that we had was the auditorium was very hot. It was before they did those renovations. During the program he said, "Can you turn the heat down?" Because it was really affecting him because you could see his face was getting red and everything.
RC (00:09:28):
How old was he?
SM (00:09:30):
We're talking mid (19)90s. Mid (19)90s, and he was a major lecturer there too. He was fantastic. When you think of the Boomer generation, what are some of the characteristics, the positive or the negative qualities, when you look at this 74 million population group?
RC (00:09:51):
Obviously, a group that big it is dangerous to generalize. There is all kinds of people in there. Yeah, when people think of the (19)60s and the Boomers, they think of I guess hippies, and the people who stuck out more. Obviously, not all Boomers were hippies and protesters, and things like that. That is what first comes to mind. I do not know whether it is fair to make generalizations like this. Obviously, we are thinking out loud here. Of course, the events that helped I think sort of shape that generation was the Vietnam War. And of course, a lot of people were understandably skeptical about the war, particularly when it was their own life that was going to be at stake. I think that for technological reasons, with the invention of the pill, the sexual revolution was something else that happened then. For some reason, drug use became more popular then too. These were all things that I associate with the Boomers, and these are all from my perspective are all negative things. I think that the sexual revolution was bad, drug use was bad. I think that the Vietnam War was badly run, but not a, I think what Reagan said, a noble cause. I think that a lot of the anti-war movement was very noble. As I say, all of those are making generalizations about a generation which are generalizations. There were obviously lots of people whom did not participate in the sexual revolution, who did not buy into the counterculture, and it is drug use and all that, and who served honorably and uncomplainingly in Vietnam.
SM (00:14:04):
Some people criticize the Boomer generation as they say that only 15 percent of that generation were involved in any sort of activism. 85 percent were not. I have read in books. When you figure that there is 74 million and 15 percent were involved in some sort of activism in some way, that is a lot of people.
RC (00:14:26):
Right.
SM (00:14:28):
I think sometimes when it is brought up, it is brought up in a way to make it look negative as opposed to looking at the final numbers of those individuals. You are right, other people have told me that it is very hard to generalize 74 million. When you could have 20 people in the room and two are really involved in activism [inaudible]. One of the interesting things that came out, I know when Newt Gingrich came into power in 1994, I read some of his things, speeches and so forth, he made some pretty sharp attacks on the (19)60s generation, the Boomers generation, is a lot of the reasons why we have a lot of problems in our society was a breakdown of the family, the divorce rate, the drug culture, the lack of respect for authority. Even going into the area of victimization. I am not saying he said that, but other people. Then George Will, whenever he gets a chance in his newspaper articles or [inaudible], I have got his books. He will have these little commentaries about this generation in which he is a part, and really make it kind of the same way, that there is more negative than positive. When you hear people like Newt Gingrich, George Will, and others attack this generation for a variety of reasons, [inaudible] problems as they enter society, how do you respond to that?
RC (00:15:53):
I think that... I assume that they are talking not about every person, but about the sort of social trends that marked the (19)60s. It is certainly true that there are... It is sloppy to suggest, if it is being suggested, that... I will not say sloppy. I assume that that is what they are talking about, and I think that anybody would have to agree that there are problems with saying, "These are things that went on the (19)60s. There were a lot of people, Baby Boomers, that supported these things. Therefore, the whole generation should be criticized." There were lots of people who did not share the zeitgeist. Conversely, a lot of the people who were not Baby Boomers also share some of the blame. These folks are following... The hippies had their older role models, Noam Chomsky, or Herbert Marcuse, and people like that. They were not Baby Boomers.
SM (00:17:43):
[inaudible].
RC (00:17:45):
Yeah, so... Norman Mailer, so forth. These people were not Baby Boomers, so you have got to blame them too. On the other hand, I guess that you cannot let people off the hook just because they themselves maybe were not direct participants. Edmund Burke, I think, said that "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for a good man to do nothing." If your friends are using drugs or protesting, or draft-dodging or whatever, and you do not condemn them or ostracize them, or if you smile and nod, well you are part of the problem. The other thing that is going on though is that people like to simplify history, and put things in categories. That is just part of what... This is very pleasing to think of history in terms of decades and generations. We have the (19)20s, and we think of it as being... Everything that happened in the (19)20s has to fit into this model of the Roaring (19)20s and the (19)30s, and so forth. We do that for the (19)60s too, even though there were things going on in the (19)60s that maybe do not really fit in with that model. And by the same token, we do the same thing with generations. We have the Greatest Generation, we have the Boomers, we have Generation X, and so forth, even though those kinds of generalizations are dangerous too. One thing about the Greatest Generation which gets very good press these days is they delay... Well, if you buy into this, you have got the Greatest Generation, and then you have these no-count Baby Boomers. Well, who raised the Baby Boomers? It was the Greatest Generation. So, if you buy into this they... One thing about the Greatest Generation is they must not have been very good parents, or there was some kind of failure there. Anyway.
SM (00:20:51):
Yeah, especially one of the qualities that WWII generation supposedly had was to make sure their sons and daughters were not lacking for things, because they went through the Depression, they went through a horrible war, and they did not want their kids to go through what they went through. They gave them everything, but they still rebelled. They did not rebel in the 1950s, but we are going to get into that a minute, the (19)50s. What are your thoughts on the movements? One of the qualities that is often defined when the Boomer generation is all the movements that were either started, or there was a carry-on mentality. Of course, the civil rights movement was already taking place in the (19)50s, and by the time the earliest Boomer is 46, they were like 18, 19. Many of them did go south though in the summer of (19)63. Talk about the anti-war movement, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, and the environmental movement. And I know there was even the disability movement was really starting to fledge around that time. Your thoughts on all these movements that came about during this time frame? These movements have been carrying on into today. Are these movements good, bad, or different? Your thoughts on the movements.
RC (00:22:12):
Again, I think you have to look at them individually, and you have to look at them over time. Some of the movements might have started out okay but then went off the rails, or developed splinter groups that were more problematic than the original movement. I am going to just give you a few examples. You have the anti-war movement, and they are... I guess I would be maybe the least sympathetic with it, particularly to the extent that it became Wallace and even revolutionary with the weathermen and the SDS, and so forth. That was the movement that I think was misconceived to begin with because I think that it was a poor... While the Vietnam War was not well-run, the basic idea of resisting communism was a good idea. Certainly, to suggest that people should dodge the draft, that not only was the war a bad idea, but that the Communists were right, and that it's an okay thing to hamper the war efforts in the United States, all of which is truly more extreme parts of the anti-war movement, I think reprehensible. The other extreme though, I think it is difficult not to be very sympathetic with the civil rights movement with respect to equality for African Americans fighting Jim Crow and segregation. I think that that movement and the Boomers who supported that, it is very... I think that they were right. That said though, some of the... There were excesses later on. Excesses is too gentle a word. The riots, the Black Panthers, things like that were reprehensible too. Feminism, I think it is more of a mixed bag. I think that changing the law so that women have more opportunities was a good thing. On the other hand, there were... I think that the feminist movement came to denigrate traditional female roles which I think that is not okay. There is nothing wrong with being a stay-at-home mom. I think that there are some feminists who suggest there is. You just sort of have to go through each of these movements. I think that some of the other ethnic movements, it's a bad thing for Chicanos to be discriminated against because they are Chicanos, just as it is wrong for African Americans to be discriminated against because they are African Americans. On the other hand, that does not justify violence. It does not justify quotas, racial preferences. Those things are bad. Gay rights, again I would be more nuanced than saying that well it was good or it was bad. I think certainly people should not be beaten up or brutalized because of their sexual orientation. On the other hand, I think that there is nothing wrong with individuals believing, as I do, that having sex with people of the same gender is immoral. That does not mean that we put those people in jail or beat them up, but it does mean that it is okay to say publicly "This is a bad lifestyle," and that it is okay to say that marriage is something that is between men and women, not between two people of the same sex. When you talk about was the gay rights movement justified or not, well it depends on what the specific aim of a particular part of the movement is at a given time.
SM (00:29:14):
How about the Native American movement, because that was really strong. It identified a lot with some of the more radical elements within the anti-war movement, because of Wounded Knee, and the takeover at Alcatraz, and Dennis Banks and Russell Means.
RC (00:29:33):
They actually killed people. I think that that is... I do not think that people should violate the law, and they certainly should not kill people, and they should not kill law enforcement officers, which the extreme elements of the Native American movement did. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with consciousness rising and protesting. People are being mistreated because of their ethnic group, that is wrong. There is nothing wrong protesting that and trying to change the laws to reflect that.
SM (00:30:32):
In 1970, Earth Day happened, and that really put this environmental movement... Of course, we are talking about Copenhagen, and all these issues, Dennis Hayes, and Gaylord Nelson, the Senator, was linked to it. I did not know until I interviewed a guest last week that Dennis Hayes and Gaylord Nelson had to meet with the anti-war movement. They had to meet with the leaders of the anti-war movement before they had Earth Day to make sure that what they were doing would not take away from what the anti-war movement was all about. They were liberals both in terms of bringing this about. Just your thought on that because this has carried on, and this curated an unbelievable divide. Just your thoughts on it, because that really is directly related to a lot of Boomers.
RC (00:31:21):
Yeah, well once again, I draw this sanction between the vile and a law-abiding, or violent versus the non-violent, and the law-following versus the law-breaking parts of these movements. Killing people or threatening people, or blowing up things because you do not like their environmental policies I think is reprehensible. I think that the...
SM (00:32:18):
I am always checking to make sure, and it is.
RC (00:32:26):
Some of the aims of the environmental movement I am very sympathetic with. I think that there was too much pollution that was allowed, and that passing laws to restrict, that pollution made a lot of sense. On the other hand, I think that there are reasonable people who can differ about-
RC (00:33:03):
More people can differ about a couple of things. One is, how bad the pollution is and what its effects are. And then, also about what kind of government regulation makes sense. We cannot just ban all pollutions because a lot of people would starve to death if we did that, literally. The pesticides, and industrialization, and farming, this is how we feed people. And just a flat out ban on any kind of technology that changes the environment is clearly not something that makes any sense. So, it becomes a line drawing problem of where are we going to draw the line? How much pollution is too much? And, should the government be in the business of micromanaging the private sector or should they try to create proper incentives? And conversely, should they ensure that there are not perverse incentives where people are actually encouraged to exploit resources or pollute. And again, there is this whole managed working environment division of the Justice Department. And reasonable people can disagree about this, there's this whole tragedy of the commons and if there is a role for government. But, I think reasonable people can differ about what the role of the government should be.
SM (00:35:22):
One of the big groups that came out of this rule was Amnesty International. And boy, they will confront ships and they will try to stop them.
RC (00:35:29):
Maybe you mean Greenpeace.
SM (00:35:31):
I mean, yeah, Greenpeace. Excuse me, Greenpeace.
RC (00:35:35):
Right. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah.
SM (00:35:35):
They will risk their lives to save whales and things like that. But that came as a direct result of, I think of... This generation oftentimes thought themselves as the most unique generation in American history. Its uniqueness. I can remember when I was young in college, a lot of students felt that way because they were going to change everything. They were going to end war, they were going to bring peace, harmony, change the world for the better, and be different than any other generation that preceded them or probably will follow them. So, this uniqueness became a mentality within many of them when they were young. And many of them still have it as they approach (19)60 because of the times they lived in. I have noted that students that I have worked with over the years, whether they be generation Xers, or those born between 1965 and I believe 1992 or something like that, and now you have got the millennials, which is the younger group. I think they were born, excuse me, they were (19)82, excuse me, millennials yeah, until (19)82. And, a lot of the issues that generation Xers had with boomers is that they got tired of hearing about what it was like when they were young. Or, the other extreme, I wish I lived then because there were causes I could get involved in. You had a cause. We do not seem to have any. Now, that was a couple years ago. Your thoughts about this uniqueness attitude that many of the boomers seem to have.
RC (00:37:14):
Well, I am skeptical of that. I think that one thing that distinguishes liberals from conservatives is, and of course I am a conservative, so I am biased, but I think that conservatism is inherently a little more modest and constrained in its vision of how much any individual and how much any generation can know. And, how much we should be willing to say that, "Well, we do not care about how things have been done. We do not care about other people's opinion. We have figured this out and we know the right way to proceed." I think that that, yeah, I mean, Thomas Sowell has written about this-
SM (00:38:38):
I like him.
RC (00:38:39):
...in a book called, Conflict of Visions.
SM (00:38:39):
Yeah, I like him.
RC (00:38:42):
Yeah. And the whole point of that book is there are these two separate, two very distinct visions. And, it goes back, this is sort of a summary of Edmond Burke or Friedrich Hayek. And so, I think that for any generation to say that, "Well, look, we have figured this out. We're unique. Everybody before us, they had it wrong. Everybody that came after us does not know anything. And in fact, the people in our own generation who disagree with us, they are wrong too." I think that that is a very arrogant and misguided approach to making public policy. On the other hand, I think that it is certainly true that for whatever reason, they may have been bad reasons, but for whatever reason, there was more political ferment during the (19)60s. And so, it may have been true that there were more causes to get involved with back then. Now, I am not sure that it was a good idea because I do not think a lot of these causes were a good idea. And, this is something where I disagree with conservatives. Some conservatives say that, well, it is sort of, national greatness conservatives that, "Well, people need a cause. And, they need to believe in something bigger than themselves. And so, the government of the country should provide that." Well, I do not buy that. I mean, I think it is true that people do need to believe in something larger than themselves, but I do not think it's the role of the government to do that. As a Christian, my own view is that the main thing that you ought to believe in that is bigger than yourself is God and serving Him. But even if I were not a Christian, I do not think I would say that, "Well, it is up to the government to give people something to rally around" I mean, okay, if you want something that you want to fight for, well go ahead and do that. But, try to do it in a way where you are not bossing other people around. I mean, if you think that there is a lot of poor people who are suffering and who need to be helped through food or educational opportunities, or whatever, that is fine, go do it. And get together with your friends if you want, and raise money, and buy food for them, or volunteer and go into depressed areas, and help kids after school. That is all great. But, you do not need to say that, "Well, we have figured out that this is the most important thing that needs to be done and we are going to force other people who do not agree with us to give us their money so that we can go do this."
SM (00:42:04):
You raise a good point, because the people I admire the most are people that oftentimes do things and they do not want publicity. I can remember, and I am not going to put this in the interview, but Charles Barkley, regardless of whether you like or dislike the man and what he has done on TV, and his gambling and all the other stuff, he has given thousands of dollars for scholarships to kids that do not have it. And he said, "I am doing it, but you do not let the word out." He gets very upset. "I am doing it because I want to do it. I do not want to have an article in the newspaper." Now obviously, someone found out about this and they have written things on Charles because he wants to be the Governor of Alabama one day. But, that is an interesting point there. I like the fact that when people do things, it is not because they want the world to know they have done it. It's, they do it because they want to help people.
RC (00:42:57):
Right. Right.
SM (00:43:00):
Again, what do you think are the... What was the watershed moment... Want to make sure we do not go over. Yeah. I am almost done with the first half of the tape. What do you think was the watershed moment when the (19)60s began, and the watershed moment when it ended?
RC (00:43:20):
Well...
SM (00:43:24):
Let us see here. Do I have to change this tape? Let us see. We have got about a minute I think left, then I will stop.
RC (00:43:37):
Okay. Briefly, I think you could mark the beginning of the (19)60s in a couple ways. You could say that, well, it is maybe with the civil rights protests that began in Montgomery, which we put it in, actually, the (19)60s, starting in the mid-(19)50s. Or, you could start it with the escalation of the war in Vietnam, which would put it in the (19)63 or (19)64, or something like that. I think the end of that, most people would say it is probably the end of the Vietnam War, or the end of American involvement. I think the Peace Accords in Paris were signed in, I think January (19)73, something like that. So, I think those are sort of how I would bracket it. I mean, clearly, the zeitgeist in the (19)60s lasted a little bit beyond 1969 because you had Kent State and the invasion of Cambodia, and all that stuff. I think that was actually in the (19)70s.
SM (00:44:39):
Yeah, it is interesting because there is a lot of activity through (19)73, and then all of a sudden, in the fall of (19)73 it just... So, (19)73 is a big year because that is also, we got out of Vietnam, and the activism started to really drop, and a lot of things were happening. In fact, I have written in my little segment, the introduction, that I felt it ended when streaking happened, and that was 1973 in the fall. And someone said to me when I was working OU, "Come to Ohio State." I said, "Why? Is there a protest? 'Oh, no. It is something new called streaking.'" I am going to switch the tape first. If I were to have 500 people, you may respond the same way about generalizing about boomers, too. But, if I were to have 500 people in an auditorium that were, let us say, the first half of the boomer generation, those born between (19)46 and say, (19)56, the one event that had the greatest impact, single event that had the greatest impact on their life, what do you think they would say? And when I say young, I mean really, when they were in elementary or secondary, or college, basically.
RC (00:46:25):
Well, of course everybody always says that you remember where you were when Kennedy was assassinated, something like that. And then, that may be true, but I am not sure if that really influenced people's lives that much. I think that the things that probably you had a direct impact on people's lives was becoming 18 years old and eligible for the draft. I think that that is probably really affected people, because I think that probably affected a lot of people's political outlook. I do not want to be unduly cynical here, but if you were not wild about the idea of going to Southeast Asia and maybe getting shot at, then it is very easy to want to come up for reasons why your reluctance to do that is justified. And so, you are going to be sympathetic to the anti-war movement. And, as you have sort of indicated, a lot of these movements, they were all interwoven. And so, if you buy into the anti-war movement then you also buy into a lot of these other movements. And, just generally buy into the whole left-wing agenda. And, I think that that probably happened to a lot of people.
SM (00:48:23):
It is interesting though, I know when I interviewed Ed Foner and Dr. Lee Edwards, Dr. Lee Edwards was adamant, the fact that the Young Americans for Freedom were a conservative organization who was as anti-war as the SDS. And they were conservative, diehard conservatives, and no one has written on it. There has been one book written about this particular group. I have had a lot of reactions. Some people do not remember them, but they have been left out of the history books. But, they were big-time anti-war. And they were to the right, and they were conservatives. I remember Bill Buckley even mentioned it in one of his books about the Young Americans for Freedom. So, there were conservatives who were against the war.
RC (00:49:11):
Oh, absolutely.
SM (00:49:11):
Yeah. Yeah.
RC (00:49:12):
That is true. That is true. And there has always been a strain within the conservative movement of people who, they're anti-Communist, but they are also isolationist, or they are very skeptical about foreign involvement by the United States. We see that even today with Ron Paul, for instance, that kind of, well, with Libertarians and also, people like Russell Kirk, I think, and others like that. And, I am sure it's true. Lee Edwards and Ed Foner were much more familiar with these groups than I was, because it was really a little bit before my time.
SM (00:50:02):
And Ron Robinson, who I interviewed, was one of the student leaders in that organization, now heads the Young America's Foundation with Pat Coyle. And, he did not even know the extent of what Lee was talking about. Lee's the historian, and he knows. And I said to Lee, "Why do not you write a book?" He has writing too many other books.
RC (00:50:25):
Yeah, he writes lots of books.
SM (00:50:26):
But anyways, I want to throw that in. I want to read this one. There were two basic issues I want to concentrate on in this book besides the general questions I have been asking. And then, I am spontaneously going in a different direction. The issue of healing and the issue of trust, which I personally have defined as part of this generation of issues that are affecting them. And, I want to read this. I want to start out by saying that when I was at Westchester University, I took a group of students to meet Senator Edmund Muskie about a year and a half before he passed away. I knew Gaylord Nelson, and Gaylord was able to secure nine meetings with nine senators, because we had brought him to the university. He was such a nice guy, and what a senator he was. He was a statesman. And so, we worked it out so that we met these senators. When we took the students to see Edmund Muskie, it was one of the best student groups we ever had. In fact, three of them have gone on for their PhDs by now. And, I had really picked them because we were going to ask some questions about the (19)68 convention, the tremendous divisions in the country, and all the things. We asked the question, and everybody was excited because this is the one question we wanted to ask them. And the question was this, and this is the way we read it, "Do you feel the boomer generation is still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white, divisions between gay and straight, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not?" And then, I throw in something here about what role has the wall played in partially healing the veterans and the generation. "Do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, time heals all wounds, the truth?" When I ask him this question... And, I know two of the closest students. One just became, I am throwing this in here. I am not going to have an interview, he just became the Director of Admissions at Southern Illinois University. I am so proud of him. He is 38 years old, and he is now been the director of admissions at three schools. PhD. But, when we asked him this, we were expecting the 1968 convention, and he did not even mention it. He had a melodramatic pause. He had, looked like a few tears in his eyes, and he said, "I just got out of the hospital. I have been pretty sick, as you might know. And, I just saw the Ken Burns series on the Civil War." And he recommended that if we did not see it on PBS, that we get the tape. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And then, he went on to talk about the reasons why the 400,000 men who died on both sides, the lost generation of children that we never had, almost a lost generation compared to the numbers we have today. But, that was his response. I thought about it because I know veterans come back to The Wall, and I know that non-veterans come back to The Wall. And, some probably feel guilty that they did not serve when their kids asked them, "What did you do in the war, daddy?" Just your thoughts on whether you feel we have an issue with healing within this generation of 17-some million. I know you cannot break it down, but do you think it is something to be concerned about?
RC (00:54:09):
Well, I think that people who were on opposite sides during a big conflict probably do have a challenge to overcome that later on in life. And I suppose, that the more dramatic and important the conflict, the greater the challenge is. I mean, being on opposite sides of the barricades in the Civil War, knowing that somebody was shooting at you or shooting at your friends, yeah, that is probably something that is difficult to overcome. The (19)60s were not as dramatic but it is, I guess, more dramatic than whatever divisions there were, say in the (19)80s. There were people that like Reagan and people that did not like Reagan, but we were not shooting at one another the way we were in the Civil War. And we were not even throwing bottles at one another the way we were during the (19)60s. On the other hand, I think there are people who do not like people who disagree with them in any generation. And, they do not like people who disagreed with them... They do not like people who disagree with them now, even if they were in agreement 20 years ago. So, I think it can be over overstated. I mean, I am thinking in my own life, how would I feel about somebody of my generation that I disagreed with back in the day, back in the (19)60s? Well, I do not think I would view that as unforgivable. I do think that I would think that they were wrong, and there might be still a little distress there.
SM (00:57:55):
The Wall itself has done a pretty good... Jan Scruggs of the book, To Heal a Nation, obviously it has been a fair... You cannot heal a lot of veterans because the wounds will always be there for a lot of the vets. It has done a lot to help veterans and their families remember those who died and those who served. And so, I have been there for the last... I know how important it is to that side.
RC (00:58:18):
Yeah-yeah.
SM (00:58:19):
I have seen it. I have always wondered though, I guess, I even asked myself, I did not serve, and I was a college student from (19)66 to (19)70, then I went on to grad school. And, I could not go because I had asthma. Then, I had been in an automobile, not automobile, I was in a very bad accident at my house. And so, I can always say, "Well, these were my reasons." But, I know a lot of vets will look at you with an eye. When they hear asthma they, "Eh." Bronchial asthma, yes. Asthma from weeds because some people went in and were veterans who had problems with weeds like grass. So, I do not know. I just ask this. I have been asking to everybody. It's, "Ah, it's no big deal." And others say, "Yeah, you might have something there." Everybody has to heal on their own. So it's individual, so to speak. But The Wall has done a tremendous job. What do you think when you look at the Vietnam Memorial in Washington? And obviously, you have been there. What did it do for you, and do you think it has gone as far as Jan Scruggs says in his book, To Heal a Nation?
RC (00:59:37):
Well, I think that memorials do have powerful symbolic value. I mean, that is why we have them, right? And, maybe there is something uniquely powerful and healing about that particular memorial because of the fact that it was a controversial war, and because of the structure of it itself, and that you have all these individual names written on it. That, that helps the recognition. And maybe, veterans of that war are particularly grateful to have that recognition given the fact that it was controversial. Yeah. I mean, I think that that is... I do want to say one thing though. That I think that some of the emotion though that you are talking about, people might feel even without the context of a war. I mean, for instance, I turned 18 in April, 1973, and the Peace Agreement had been signed in January, 1973. And of course, the draft had ended even a year or two before that. So, I was never somebody where going to Vietnam was a real possibility. And then, the next war that the United States was in, I guess was not until Grenada, right? And by that time, I was through law school and in my mid to late twenties. And of course, there was not a draft. There has not been a draft since then. And yeah, I mean, I will tell you, the one regret that I have in my life is that I never wore a uniform. And I look back, and I do not know when I would have... I mean, there was not really a logical time for me to stop what I was doing. I mean, I could have gone into the army or into the service after college, or after law school, or something like that, but there was-
SM (01:03:19):
I think you can go in right up to 40.
RC (01:03:23):
Yeah. But I never did, and I regret that. I regret that. So anyway, I mean, I feel that even though I was not somebody who was not serving when other people were being drafted, or when there was a big war going on and I was sort of on the sidelines, and I did not have that, and yet I still have this regret.
SM (01:03:48):
Yeah. I do not know why I always ask this question. I have asked it to everybody and I have had some interesting responses. Gaylord Nelson was, in his own unique way, always responding in Gaylord Nelson way. And that is, he said, "I do not walk around Washington DC with lack of healing on their sleeve." He said, "But it did affect the body politic. And that is where the effect has been. It is the body politic. You keep bringing it up in just about every war." And we have even, as we are getting later on, when Ronald Reagan said, "America's back," it was back from the (19)60s. And then, George Bush, senior, saying, "Vietnam syndrome is over." Oh, boy. Because, some people really reacted to that, even more than Ronald Reagan. But, I have a question here. The second area is trust. Boomers, in their lives, saw a lot of leaders that lied to them. I am sure the leaders have lied throughout history, but when boomers were young and in college, they saw a president lie to them about getting involved in Vietnam with the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. And, anybody who was up on what was happening knew that was a lie. There were things already written about it. If you were cognizant, and when you were in fifth or sixth grade like I was when President Eisenhower on TV said that, "The u2, Gary Powers was not a spy." I remember him on TV saying that, and then he lied. Why? And, I like him. And then of course, Watergate with Richard Nixon, and the list goes on and on. College students and the people of the (19)60s seen... The Vietnam generation did not trust anybody in position of power or authority, whether it be university or president, college administrators, ministers, rabbis, priests, politicians, heads of corporations, anybody in the leadership role, you cannot trust. And so, I am wondering if this is an issue that we define this generation as a very non-trusting generation. That it might have-
SM (01:06:03):
It is a very non-trusting generation that might have passed this on to their kids and their grandkids. I preface this again with a question that political science majors, of which I was a history major in political science, is that it is healthy. Political scientists always say it is healthy to challenge government and to not trust government, because that is what a democracy is. Keeps them on their toes. So you have got that extreme, but just your thought on the effect that these leaders have had and their lack of trust in so many leaders when they were young and the effect this may still have on America today. When I say this, I am not only talking about the activists. I am talking about the hundred percent, because subconsciously they all experienced the (19)60s.
RC (01:06:50):
That is a very interesting question. I do not know the answer to that. It would be interesting to try to figure out if people a hundred years ago were more or less trusting of these various leaders than they are now. I mean, again, there is a danger that each generation thinks that it's experiencing everything for the first time. That, oh, well, nobody else, no other generation has been disillusioned the way we are or is skeptical the way we are or whatever. Of course, it is not true. Each generation thinks that they are the first, but it is really not. Now we think that, oh gosh, the United States is polarized in a way that is never been polarized. There is a lack of civility, et cetera. Well, yes and no. You go back and you look at political campaigns that were run a hundred or 200 years ago, and they were pretty uncivil. I suspect that Southerners, prior to the Civil War were pretty skeptical about President Lincoln and did not trust him, thought he was a liar. I remember my grandfather, he certainly was not somebody... I mentioned him earlier, he was very skeptical about the veracity of different leaders. So, I think that skepticism about politicians maybe is something that is not brand new. Maybe the numbers are much bigger now. Maybe 50 years ago, 10 or 20 percent of the people thought that FDR was a liar, but now 80 percent of the people think that whoever is the president is a liar. So, maybe it has gotten worse. I just do not know. These other leaders that you talk about, the clergy, businessmen, so forth, well, again, I am sure that there were lots of... the whole populous movement was based on skepticism about the good faith of American corporations and businessmen. So, I do not think that they thought that John D. Rockefeller could not tell a lie. I do not know.
SM (01:10:23):
I know. As follow up, because I can remember Teddy Roosevelt when he was president and served two terms, he was very supportive of William Howard Taft taking over, but he came back in 1912 because he said Taft was a liar.
RC (01:10:39):
Yeah.
SM (01:10:40):
Lied. "He said he was going to follow through on my policies and did absolutely nothing." Friends to bitter enemies.
RC (01:10:47):
Right. Yeah.
SM (01:10:49):
So there is a lack of trust there. I think of examples, I always think of how the population responds, whether they respond... The activism in the thirties was something also like the (19)60s. I want you to respond to, what do these things mean to you? They do not have to be very lengthy or anything, but you have already mentioned what the wall means to you.
RC (01:11:13):
Yeah.
SM (01:11:13):
So what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
RC (01:11:19):
Well, I remember more about Kent State than about Jackson State. I have to say that my recollection of Kent State was that it may well be that... It was a tragedy, clearly. But I remember when I was in the Civil Rights Division, learning that I think the Justice Department Civil Rights Division prosecuted the guardsmen there. I was very skeptical about that. I am not an expert on the facts, but this was a protest. Things were being thrown at these guardsmen. My instinct is to be sympathetic. Now, if the bottles had been thrown five minutes ago and the protestors were a different group of protestors and they were 300 yards away, well that is different. I just know about the facts, but that is my recollection, is that well, it was a tragedy. It was real wrong that these guardsmen did what they did, but the protestors should not have been throwing bottles at the guardsman either or whatever they were.
SM (01:13:01):
Watergate.
RC (01:13:06):
Well, I think that Nixon lied. He covered up. He abused government authority, abused trust, all of that. Was it an impeachable offense? I do not know. Again, I would have to go back and look at it. I mean, I remember the response of a lot of people was that, well, look, yeah, all what Nixon did was wrong, but it is not particularly new. These were things that other political leaders had done, and that to a substantial extent, this was an excuse that was seized upon by Nixon's political enemies. Example was a popular button at the time was, I was for impeachment before Watergate. Well, I mean, it was meant to show how right the person was. But I remember, I think it was Bill Buckley saying, well, exactly. That is the mindset, and that makes us skeptical about whether impeachment really makes sense here. I mean, I do not want to be a Nixon apologist. I did not like Nixon. In 1972, I was not old enough to vote yet, but we had a mock election at my high school. I supported the third party candidate then. John Schmitz was his name. Nixon was not a particularly conservative president, and there were a lot of things that he did. So, I am not a great fan of Nixon, but I think that I like Nixon's enemies even less. I am open to the suggestion that Watergate was seized upon by Nixon's political enemies to get rid of him. All that said, though, the way he handled Watergate was wrong not only politically, but also morally.
SM (01:16:04):
Goes right into enemies list. That was my next-
RC (01:16:07):
Yeah.
SM (01:16:08):
Just your thought on his enemies list. It is a long one.
RC (01:16:12):
Yeah, it was a long one. I think that it was described as being put together and that the machinery of the federal government was going to be used to screw, and those were his words, our political enemies. Well, that is wrong. I cannot do that.
SM (01:16:31):
How about Woodstock?
RC (01:16:32):
It was a bunch of stupid hippies. That would be my two-word response. I think there was some good music there. But was it a great moment for a Western civilization? No, I think it was probably not.
SM (01:17:03):
Going to have to put the Summer of Love in there too, which was (19)67.
RC (01:17:07):
Yeah. I mean, again, I think that I do not like the counterculture. I like the culture.
SM (01:17:17):
That is the next word. It is counterculture, because Theo Roszak wrote that very historic book called The Making of a Counterculture. He just retired. I am going to interview him. He just retired from the University of California at Hayward. He has written a brand-new book now on the Boomers in old age, some of his projections. I am not reading it until I interview him, but just the term counterculture.
RC (01:17:45):
You know what I said. I do not like the counterculture. I like the culture. The culture that was being countered was, I take it Western civilization and American culture in particular. I think that American culture is good and does not need to be countered. It can certainly be improved. To the extent that the counterculture was about getting rid of racial discrimination or stopping the dumping of poisonous chemicals into the water, our rivers, yeah, that is fine. But if it is about using drugs, having promiscuity, rejecting religion, no, I think that the culture is much better than the counterculture.
SM (01:19:17):
Two different groups, but the Hippies and the Yippies. The Yippies were Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin and the Youth International Party.
RC (01:19:25):
Right.
SM (01:19:26):
Different.
RC (01:19:27):
Yeah. Well, I did not like the Hippies, and I like the Yippies even less. I mean, I guess the Yippies are a more radicalized and politicized version of the Hippies. I reject their Yippies political agenda and the lawless means they would use to pursue it. The Hippies, I would define I guess as people who embrace the counterculture, particularly younger people who got into long hair and bell bottoms and drug use and promiscuity and all that.
SM (01:20:11):
We have already set a few things. Students for Democratic Society and the Weathermen, they were different.
RC (01:20:18):
Well, sure.
SM (01:20:20):
I know for a fact that many members of SDS, when the Weatherman started, they split. It is over. Wanted nothing to do with that. So, those are two unique groups, even though they are part of SDS. Just your thoughts on SDS from its beginning, Tom Hayden created with the Port Huron Statement. Just your thoughts on those two entities.
RC (01:20:47):
Well, it was very left wing from the start. As a conservative, therefore I was unsympathetic with them from the start. So long as the agenda was merely dissenting and not lawless and revolutionary and violent, I would be unsympathetic but tolerant. But once an organization starts breaking the law, killing people, blowing up buildings and so forth, then they should be treated as criminals.
SM (01:21:35):
How about Vietnam Veterans Against the War? Because they took over the anti-war movement when SDS died.
RC (01:21:41):
Yeah.
SM (01:21:42):
They were major.
RC (01:21:44):
Well again, I mean, would draw the same distinction. I was anti-antiwar, but so long as the... the parts of the antiwar movement that were simply dissenting, you have to tolerate dissent in a democratic society until it becomes violent or lawless. I do not know enough about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. I guess my-my recollection, I do not associate them with the violence and lawlessness of, well certainly of the Weatherman.
SM (01:22:42):
What do you think were the most important books that were read? What did you read when you were young? What do you think were the most important books for the Boomer generation? What were people reading then?
RC (01:22:57):
Well, and I mentioned from my side of the aisle, I was a fan of Buckley's. Of course, Buckley was publishing books that I remember reading, books that were... I mean, a lot of them were compilations of his columns and other essays, but he also had some standalone books too. I think The Unmaking of a Mayor, which was his [inaudible] running for Mayor of New York City against Lindsay, Up from Liberalism, I think.
SM (01:23:39):
God and Man at Yale was classic.
RC (01:23:40):
Why, sure. Yeah. I think that was written in the early (19)50s, McCarthy is an amazing and so forth. So yeah, I think that Russell Kirk, The Conservative Mind, there were lots of... the whole staff of National Review, James Burnham, Whittaker Chambers. Goodness knows that was a little bit earlier, but I think that those were all important books for conservatives. For the left, I remember The Greening of America by Charles Reich, reading that. Garry Wills was sort of an interesting guy who started out as, I guess as a conservative and became liberal. I remember reading Nixon Agonistes and I am not sure-
SM (01:24:58):
Classic book.
RC (01:24:58):
Yeah. I do not know how I would classify that. I think that Wills may have written that when he was in transition. But I remember it was an important and much read and discussed book then. Well, and then from the Martin Luther King, Why We Cannot Wait, his speeches, those were obviously very important books.
SM (01:25:32):
Your thoughts on the music and the art of the era? Obviously, we are talking about rock music, Motown, folk. What was the music that really turned on you and some of the conservative Boomers of that period? I thought some of this music appealed to everyone.
RC (01:25:51):
Yeah, no, I think that is true. I think that is true.
SM (01:25:52):
They had so many social messages in their music too.
RC (01:25:55):
That is true. Although I do not know that there really were very many, that there was much conservative movement, conservative music, conservative, popular music back then.
SM (01:26:13):
Burl Ives.
RC (01:26:16):
I guess The Ballad of the Green Beret.
SM (01:26:19):
He was a liberal, man.
RC (01:26:22):
But I enjoyed that music. I tell you, I am Bob Dylan fan. I like him. Of course, a lot of Dylan's work it is hard to... it is not maybe as easily pigeonholed, particularly in retrospect, as people think. Dylan himself is an interesting character. I do not know if you have read-
SM (01:26:56):
Yeah, I have read quite a bit on him and actually about the song, Like a Rolling Stone. People have read the words. You take away different meanings.
RC (01:27:06):
Yeah. Yeah.
SM (01:27:07):
In fact, one person I interviewed said, "Listen to the words. He is very critical of the Boomer generation. Listen to the words on a Rolling Stone." Now that might not be what he was later, when he was with Joan Baez, but just listen to the words.
RC (01:27:24):
Yeah. Well, and his chronicles and his memoir, I mean I was sort of surprised, but he talks about that era. He thought that Goldwater was a great guy. He singles him out among politicians like, "Yeah, I read. Oh, you really made a lot of sense to me." I liked a lot of the (19)60s' movement. I would say that probably the more stridently political it was, the more problem I would have. But a lot of it, you can convince yourself to like it. I remember Emerson, Lake and Palmer, the song Lucky Man.
SM (01:28:16):
With the eagle or the swan or whatever it was, or a dove. It was a dove on the cover.
RC (01:28:24):
Yeah.
SM (01:28:24):
Yeah.
RC (01:28:27):
I guess their biggest hit was probably Lucky Man. Right?
SM (01:28:29):
Mm- hmm.
RC (01:28:32):
I am sure it is supposed to be very sarcastic in characterizing this guy who was killed as being somehow lucky. But you read it, I said, "Well, it would not be such a bad way to go," to live and die. But no, the Beatles obviously have great music. The Rolling Stones had great music. Rolling Stones is another group that is interesting, that they certainly were countercultural and not role models, but their music was not really very political.
SM (01:29:17):
Well, I got two more questions and then I am just going to read some names, just quick responses and then we will be done. The one question is, there were three... someone corrected me and said there are four, but I am going to continue to say there are three slogans that really defined the era. I would like the one that you feel defines the era more than the other or a combination. One of them was Malcolm X's By Any Means Necessary. Of course, that was on a lot of residence halls and colleges. The second one was Bobby Kennedy, who... actually, I think it was a Henry David Thoreau quote. He said, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not." Then the third one was a Peter Max poster that was very popular on college campuses in the early (19)70s. On that poster it said, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." So those are three different slogans of an era, one being more radical, one more hippie-ish, and one sense of responsibility, the idea of making a difference in the world for other people. Your thoughts on those three? And again, I am going to make sure... this tape may be going to an end here. Yeah, I am going to... Okay, here you go.
RC (01:31:08):
Yeah. I was trying to think if I can recall other catchphrases from the (19)60s, burn baby burn, do not trust anybody over 30.
SM (01:31:31):
It was Cleaver [inaudible] kept saying that. I cannot remember what it was.
RC (01:31:37):
Yeah. Well, I guess of those, the one that... I guess the two that I would pick out as emblematic are the Bobby Kennedy and the Malcolm X one. Chronologically, the Kennedy one may have come after the Malcolm X one. I am not sure. But I think that the Kennedy one can unfortunately degenerate into the Malcolm X one. The reformist impulse that the Kennedy quote shows is everybody's in favor of reform. Nobody thinks that the status quo is perfect. I mean, Edmund Burke believed in reform. I think Burke said that when we change the existing institutions, we should approach the body politic as a son approaches the wounds of his father. You should be very gentle, very careful in the way that you treat those wounds and in the way that you try to make things better. The most important thing is to do no harm. When you start saying that, well, we're going to do things by any means necessary, that we have figured out what needs to be done and we do not care about process, we do not care about consensus, we do not care about following the rules in order to bring about what we think needs to be brought about, then you lose me. I think that you should lose anybody who is responsible. I think that unfortunately in the (19)60s, a lot of this understandable reformist impulse degenerated into the lawlessness and violence of by any means necessary.
SM (01:34:51):
What were the photographs or the pictures that stand out in your mind that really caught your attention during this time, that had the greatest impact on you? I have three that I will mention after you respond. And then there is a fourth that someone told me, "How could you forget that one?"
RC (01:35:13):
Well, I think that when I think of the (19)60s, I think of Vietnam. I guess the two photos of Vietnam that come to mind are the South Vietnamese official summarily executing the Vietnam guy and then the famous naked little girl running from the Napalm.
SM (01:35:45):
Kim Phuc. Yeah.
RC (01:35:45):
Yeah.
SM (01:35:46):
Mm-hmm.
RC (01:35:47):
I think those are the ones that come to mind about Vietnam. I think of, I guess maybe pictures of the Kennedy assassination, the still photos. I think of... I mean this does not really have anything to do with what we have been talking about, but the men walking on the moon. In terms of the Civil Rights Movement, I do not know. I can picture different photographs of Martin Luther King and other civil rights figures, but I cannot really think of a particular one.
SM (01:36:53):
There are, I think four pictures that are in the top 100 of the 20th century. One of them is the girl over the body at Kent State.
RC (01:37:04):
I could think of that one. Yeah. I was going to say that one.
SM (01:37:06):
That is one I was thinking of. That was Mary Ann Vecchio. Then the other one is Tommie Smith and John Carlos in the (19)68 Olympics in Mexico City with their fists up.
RC (01:37:15):
Right.
SM (01:37:16):
You hit the third one of mine. What was it now? Oh yeah, Kim Phuc, who we actually brought to Westchester University. But one that I was told that you cannot forget is the Mỹ Lai Massacre, dead bodies and I do not know.
RC (01:37:32):
Well, I was thinking about that, but I do not remember... I remember pictures of Calley, but I do not remember that photo.
SM (01:37:37):
Yeah, there are others. Yeah.
RC (01:37:39):
Yeah.
SM (01:37:40):
Of course, Spiro. The last question before, I just get the names here now, and I just want to get back to the (19)50s. Now, you obviously are younger than I am. Of course, Boomers, the frontline Boomers start going into seventh grade around 1960, (19)59, (19)60. So the thing that always puzzles me, and I would like your feelings on it, what was it about the 1950s that shaped this generation? I know we had Eisenhower as a president. He was a gentlemanly old man, but he was war a hero. The kids of this era grew up watching Mickey Mouse Club. All the westerns on TV, my golly, all these westerns were always, the Indians were the bad people and the cowboys. You had Howdy Doody for the real young ones, Rootie Kazootie. You had The Ed Sullivan Show. You had the black and white TV, three channels. The list goes on and on, on the types of TV shows that were on in the (19)50s. But parents are trying to give as much as they could to their kids. Of course, we're not talking about all the African American kids or others, but even in that period, there seemed to be a more stable family unit, even within the African American community in the- Well, the family unit, even within the African American community in the 1950s.
RC (01:39:04):
It is true.
SM (01:39:05):
Much more stable unit with a mother and father. They may not have had a TV set, but there were a lot of things happening, and then you get into the (19)60s or the beginning of the (19)60s when President Kennedy became president, and I know the war and the draft and all these other things, but there had to be something as children are growing up, given all this stuff, and they were rebelling against their parents, the generation gap, and all the other things. How did this happen? And two things that I remember. I can remember as a little boy overhearing the McCarthy hearings on TV and this man screaming saying, "You are a communist," and all this. I can remember that, and obviously the threat of nuclear war and all the other things, but my friends did not never seem affected by that. And then, of course, the beat generation where anybody that knew about the beats, they were the first to rebel against the status quo. There is a lot of stuff happening here. Just your thoughts on what was it about the (19)50s that shaped the boomer generation? Forget the (19)60s and the anti, all this stuff. What was it about it?
RC (01:40:22):
Well, I think the conventional wisdom would be that, well, the (19)50s were very stayed conservative era and repressive. Repressive of women, repressive of racial minorities, and that the (19)60s generation got fed up with that and wanted to end repression and to have more freedom, more equality, so that is what the rebellion against the (19)50s was about. I am not a social scientist, I am not a historian, but I am skeptical of that view. I think that there certainly was discrimination in the (19)50s, but of course the discrimination against minorities and women was not new in the 1950s. It was in the (19)40s and the (19)30s and the (19)20s and so forth, too. So it is kind of unfair to single out the (19)50s. In fact, the (19)50s in some respects, starting to move in the right direction on these issues. I think that a more cynical explanation of what happened in the 60s would be this. It was not a rebellion against the 1950s at all. That what you had was a generation that was spoiled. As we discussed before, the greatest generation had gone through the Depression and they did not want their kids to suffer, and so they indulged them. So you had that, you had a couple of technological changes with the pill, which made it much easier and less risky to have premarital sex. You had a continuing decline in traditional morality and religion. Again, this was not something that began in the (19)50s, but I think it maybe was continuing in the (19)50s. And then, the catalyst was that you had the Vietnam War and people for largely self-interested reasons, rebelled not against the (19)50s, but against this war. And as a result of that, and as a result of the fact that the ideology of the anti-war movement was interwoven with a lot of other left-wing ideology, bought in to the rest of the left's agenda, which did include rejection of all that was bad and good about the 1950s and American culture generally. I think Midge Decter wrote a book, which I have not read, called Liberal Parents, Radical Children, which I think may talk about some of this.
SM (01:46:04):
Good. How many years ago was that? I probably have that book.
RC (01:46:09):
Yeah, she must have written that I think in the (19)70s.
SM (01:46:18):
We're at the end here in terms of just responding to some of the names, just quick response. They do not have be any kind of great detail. There might be a few smaller terms here too, but I am going to start out with just your thoughts. Jane Fonda?
RC (01:46:35):
What do you want from me, a thumbs up or a thumbs down?
SM (01:46:38):
Just your thoughts, just a few words, what you think of her.
RC (01:46:42):
Well, yeah, I did not like her. She was, if not a traitor, she certainly... And if not, she did not engage in treason, she certainly gave aid and comfort to the enemy.
SM (01:46:56):
How about Tom Hayden?
RC (01:46:59):
It was... At a minimum, I am very unsympathetic to his political agenda, and my recollection is that the agenda was not only objectionable, but advocated lawbreaking and... Well, I will not say violence in this case, but certainly breaking the law.
SM (01:47:46):
And a follow-up is his close friend, Rennie Davis.
RC (01:47:49):
I do not remember Rennie Davis.
SM (01:47:52):
How about Abby Hoffman and Jerry Ruben?
RC (01:47:55):
Well, again, they were certainly on the Wallace part of the protests. Whether they were... I think that they certainly tolerated violence if they did not engage in violence themselves.
SM (01:48:14):
Chicago Eight, or seven, when they took Bobby Seal away.
RC (01:48:18):
Well, again, I would put them in the same category. I do not remember how... I mean, I am sort of drawing these distinctions between dissent, lawless dissent, and then violent dissent.
SM (01:48:30):
Right.
RC (01:48:30):
And the Chicago Eight, that was a trial about Wallace. I do not know what it was about. Well, I guess, actually did not they blow up a monument or something? I cannot remember if that was part of the-
SM (01:48:45):
Well, I know they took over a monument, but that was a whole group of people, but they did not blow it up though.
RC (01:48:49):
Yeah. Oh, okay. Maybe-
SM (01:48:51):
I have not asked this before, but since you're a lawyer, what do you think of William Kunstler?
RC (01:48:56):
Well, again, I do not like him. I think that he abused the legal system, acted very irresponsibly.
SM (01:49:09):
The premier of his documentary is Saturday. There is a documentary coming. He and Leonard Wineglass worked together in Chicago.
RC (01:49:16):
Yeah.
SM (01:49:18):
Timothy Leary.
RC (01:49:23):
Irresponsible. Advocate of drug use.
SM (01:49:27):
Dr. Benjamin Spock.
RC (01:49:33):
He wrote a decent book on child-rearing, but was wrong about the Vietnam War.
SM (01:49:41):
How about William Sloane Coffin?
RC (01:49:44):
Also wrong about the war.
SM (01:49:50):
How about the Black Panthers? And I am going to list them because there is five of them that are well known: Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Angela Davis, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver. There is five of them. They were well known. The other one was murdered, Norman, in Chicago.
RC (01:50:07):
Well, the Panthers were not only dissenters, but they were lawless and violent dissenters, and they killed people. David Horowitz, I think, was well written about this. I cannot remember... I mean, well, I do not remember anything about Kathleen Cleaver. Angela Davis, I remember, and I remember that she was convicted of helping a... Oh, I guess then the conviction was overturned on basically a technicality, and now she is ironically a law professor. She is a devout Communist, so I do not like her.
SM (01:51:09):
Kathleen, by the way, is a law professor at Emory.
RC (01:51:12):
Is that right?
SM (01:51:12):
A very good law professor.
RC (01:51:14):
That is funny. Eldridge Cleaver, Huey Newton and-
SM (01:51:23):
Bobby Seale.
RC (01:51:23):
... Bobby Seale, I would have to read up on which did what. I think that Cleaver was actually convicted of rape at one point, in addition to what he did with the Black Panthers. I think that, I cannot remember if it was Huey Newton or Bobby Seale that was killed eventually in a drug related-
SM (01:51:58):
Huey. He ended up getting a PhD too.
RC (01:52:07):
Yeah.
SM (01:52:07):
He was a smart guy.
RC (01:52:08):
Yeah. Well, I think that he's the one that David Horowitz talks about in his memoirs the most. Yeah, being smart, but very dangerous.
SM (01:52:16):
How about the Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, the feminists?
RC (01:52:29):
I actually think of Chisholm more as, not principally as a feminist, but-
SM (01:52:36):
Black, female politician, ran for President.
RC (01:52:39):
Right. As I said, I think that the feminists, I sympathy with providing more opportunities for women, but not sympathetic with the denigration of traditional female roles, which should also be things that could be chosen. And I think some of them, I think had a sort of generally liberal agenda, and so I would disagree with her about that.
SM (01:53:40):
Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew.
RC (01:53:46):
Well, I think that both of them did a lot of... Really let down Republicans and conservatives through their law-breaking. In both instances, I think that there are those who would say that, well, the penalty that they paid was disproportionate to the laws they broke, but nonetheless, they did break the law and I think they let us down.
SM (01:54:47):
I did not mention two other Black Panthers, H. Rap Brown and Stokely Carmichael. They were big.
RC (01:54:53):
Yeah, yeah. And I put them in the same category. Advocates of violence. I think that Rap Brown is back in prison.
SM (01:55:00):
He is in jail. I think he is there for the rest of his life.
RC (01:55:08):
Yeah.
SM (01:55:11):
John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy?
RC (01:55:16):
Well, I think that John Kennedy is greatly overrated as a president, but is a much more conservative president than is remembered. He was strongly anti-communist. I think his views, he would have a very hard time getting nominated to anything in the Democratic Party these days. Bobby Kennedy, I think was also somebody who had, I think he was becoming more liberal as he got older before he was killed, but I think his... Both of them I think are more fondly remember today than they would have been had they not been tragically assassinated.
SM (01:56:43):
How about Teddy Stein?
RC (01:56:47):
Well-
SM (01:56:48):
Some people say he was probably the greatest senator during this timeframe in the (19)70s, when he became 62 to now.
RC (01:56:58):
Well, he certainly was an effective senator. I did not share his agenda, and I think that his significant faults were all whitewashed during the mourning over his death. And I think that some of that is understandable. When somebody dies, that is not the time to point out their faults, but he could be a very nasty politician as witness what he did to Robert Bork and had a personal life that was at least for long stretches, immoral, and even criminal.
SM (01:58:41):
How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern?
RC (01:58:47):
Well, I think that both of them are, unlike Kennedy, I think are personally very well-behaved, moral men. McGovern was a war hero, and I am not aware of anyone that is criticized their character. They are both political liberals, so I disagree with that, but I do not think that they had the personal failings that the Kennedy has had.
SM (01:59:40):
How about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey?
RC (01:59:45):
Well, very different. I mean, I guess, they had similar politics. Again, both of them, I did not share their politics. I think that Humphrey was someone, again, whose personal life and personal morality, I have not heard criticized. Johnson was a much rougher character.
SM (02:00:20):
Couple more here. George Wallace?
RC (02:00:28):
Well, he began as a racist demagogue and eventually became just a demagogue. I mean, think that he shed some of his racism. He is somebody who is political bottom line, I shared in many respects in terms of being more accepted in the civil rights area, but in terms of the war, the rejection of the counterculture, I was sympathetic, but he was, I think somebody who thinking conservatives were never entirely comfortable with.
SM (02:01:33):
Daniel and Phillip Berrigan, Catholic priests.
RC (02:01:37):
Yeah. I sort of have them same category as Sloane Kaufman. There were a lot of mainline clergy who were opposed to the war, and I do not remember... I did not share their rejection of the war. I do not think that... I think you can be a good Christian and also support the Vietnam War. I cannot remember whether to what extent they were not only dissenters, but also broke the law-
SM (02:02:35):
They did. They threw blood on nuclear weapons, and then they also destroyed direct records.
RC (02:02:40):
Yeah.
SM (02:02:42):
Barry Goldwater and Dwight Eisenhower.
RC (02:02:46):
Well, I liked Goldwater.
SM (02:02:57):
Yeah, it is the first time. I will turn this off.
RC (02:02:58):
I think Goldwater was hero to conservatives during the (19)60s, and I think Eisenhower was a president who for a long time was underrated, but I think there is now more recognition that he was a very effective and good president.
SM (02:03:22):
How about Harry Truman when boomers were babies?
RC (02:03:29):
Yeah. I think that in terms of foreign policy, Truman largely did a good job, domestic policy. He was a liberal, and I think less so.
SM (02:03:52):
Daniel Ellsberg, Pentagon papers.
RC (02:03:57):
Yeah. As I recall, he stole and made public classified information.
SM (02:04:24):
Right.
RC (02:04:27):
Which the Pentagon papers were, and you should not do that. Even if you think that... I mean, this again gets to this conservative point that even if you're convinced you're right, that does not mean that you break the law.
SM (02:04:54):
John Dean?
RC (02:05:13):
I know that he was an excellent White House official and was one of the first people to blow the whistle, to reveal what the administration had done with Watergate, but I do not remember much else about him.
SM (02:05:55):
Muhammad Ali?
RC (02:05:57):
Was a great boxer. I did not share his politics, but he was not a political philosopher. I guess the question is whether he was a draft dodger or somebody who, for legitimate religious reasons did not want to serve. I am more inclined to the former view than the latter, but I have no window into his soul.
SM (02:06:53):
Woodward and Bernstein?
RC (02:06:57):
Good reporters. I have no objection to reporters doing their job.
SM (02:07:13):
Yeah. You already responded to Woodward and Bernstein.
RC (02:07:18):
Yeah, I think they were reporters doing their job.
SM (02:07:22):
William Westmoreland, the guy who oversaw the-
RC (02:07:26):
Yeah. No, he was the general in charge for a lot of the time during Vietnam. I am not really in a position to critique-
SM (02:07:39):
The ERA and why it failed?
RC (02:07:42):
Well, I think it failed largely because of the efforts of Phyllis Schlafly. I think that she was right to oppose it. The problem with the ERA is that nobody knew, and nobody still knows, what exactly it would do. And it does not make sense to amend the Constitution for what was essentially symbolic reasons when you do not know with a fair degree of certainty what the actual effects of that amendment are going to be. We already have the 14th amendment, which makes it very difficult for governments at any level to engage in sex discrimination. Nobody is in favor of prohibiting sex discrimination to the same degree that race discrimination is prohibited; and yet, I mean, there is a good argument that the Equal Rights Amendment would do that. And so, does that mean that, for instance, the military cannot make any distinctions with respect to sex? That sexual distinction is not going to be allowed with respect to government jobs where it is a bonafide occupational qualification? For instance, hiring prison guards or things like that, medical research. I mean, it purports to be a categorical ban on sex discrimination. I think that nobody is really in favor of a categorical ban on sex discrimination.
SM (02:10:06):
Harvey Milk, because he is the epitome of the gay and lesbian movement.
RC (02:10:11):
Yeah. I just do not know enough about that. Again, I said at the outset, I think that gay people should not be beaten up or jailed or anything like that; but on the other hand, I think that objection to homosexuality is not the same thing as racial discrimination or gender discrimination.
SM (02:11:01):
Tet.
RC (02:11:04):
Well, I think that... I guess it is now pretty much accepted that while it was a military failure for the communists in Vietnam, the Tet Offensive was a political defeat for the good guys of Vietnam and that the media bears some of the blame for that.
SM (02:11:51):
I am down to the final thing, which is the final presidents that we are going to ask about, but since you were a lawyer, I cannot leave without asking you, just a quick thought on Roe V. Wade-
SM (02:12:03):
Just a quick thought on Roe v. Wade and the two civil rights bills that President Johnson signed in (19)64 and (19)65. We're talking about three major events. Roe v. Wade was in the (19)70s, but these are major decisions in boomer lives.
RC (02:12:18):
Yeah.
SM (02:12:18):
So just your thoughts on the two civil rights acts. I have not asked this to other people. I am only asking it to lawyers.
RC (02:12:26):
Well, I think that one point that I always make about the two pieces of civil legislation is that in both houses, the percentage of Republicans who supported it was higher than the percentage of Democrats who supported it. Both pieces of legislation, yeah. And that is something that is frequently forgotten.
SM (02:12:50):
Is that because Everett Dirksen was such a big supporter of it. Because Everett was a big supporter.
RC (02:12:55):
Yeah, he was. And that would explain the Senate. It would not necessarily explain the House. I think that part of it was because there were so many Democrats at that time, so the Democrats were opposed to it. Yeah. But anyway, it shows, I think the Republicans now do not get enough credit for that. I think that both bills obviously had much good in them and were certainly well-intentioned. I think that in both cases, the way that the bureaucrats and the judges subsequently interpreted and enforced them turned them on their heads to some extent, so that instead of prohibiting discrimination across the board the way they were written and intended, they now are interpreted to allow, and in some places require politically correct discrimination on the basis of race and ethnicity. The Roe versus Wade was a very bad Supreme Court decision. There is nothing in the Constitution, one way or the other, about abortion. And it was a classic instance of judicial activism for the court to read such a constitutional right into the Constitution. And it has had all kinds of bad consequences. Not only bad consequences in the sense that there are lots of dead babies because of it, but also bad consequences in that it has removed the whole abortion discussion from the political and legislative arena and put it in the courts, which are not really equipped to deal with those issues.
SM (02:15:09):
I am going to end with the Presidents, because we have already talked about many of them up to the 1970s. Just your thoughts on Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter.
RC (02:15:29):
Well, I think that Ford will be remembered positively for the role he played in the nation's healing. After Nixon, we needed a Gerald Ford. We needed a very down to earth man of strong, positive character who was a quite unpolarizing figure. Carter was one of the, I think, least successful Presidents of the century, partly because his policies did not make any sense, partly because of his own personality. And I think the failings of his personality have become more evident since he left office. It was just a very...
SM (02:17:12):
How about Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr.? Both of them. I am going to turn this-
(02:17:24):
Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr.
RC (02:17:27):
Well, I think Reagan will be remembered as one of the great Presidents, not only of the 20th century but also in American history, because of his leadership in bringing the Cold War to a successful conclusion, and also to returning the United States to free market principles at a time when we were headed away from them. And more generally, for a renaissance of conservative leadership. George Bush, Bush 41, I think that he was an unsuccessful President in terms of persuading people that he knew he was doing in terms of domestic policy. But I think that he may still be remembered well by historians because of his foreign policy.
SM (02:19:13):
The Gulf War.
RC (02:19:15):
Well, even before the Gulf War, he presided over the demise of the Soviet Union and the liberation of Eastern Europe. And that was a very critical period, and it could have gotten screwed up, but he did not screw it up.
SM (02:19:49):
The last two, obviously, Bill Clinton and George Bush. And I say these two gentlemen, because in some of my interviews people say these two gentlemen really define the boomer generation. And they give me their reasons. Even though they one was a conservative and one's ... I am not sure if Bill is truly a ... I think he is more center than what his wife's turned out to be. But what is it about them that people would say that both these men truly define the boomer generation? And then your overall thoughts on the [inaudible] Presidents?
RC (02:20:27):
Well, they were boomers. And I guess they were the first Presidents who were boomers. And I suppose in some respects, they were on opposite sides during the (19)60s. Clinton avoided serving in the war and smoked pot, even if he did not inhale. He certainly seemed to have bought into the sexual revolution. And I think you are right that to call him just a liberal is maybe an oversimplification, but certainly more liberal than Bush. I actually think that it's more problematic to call Bush a conservative than it is to call Clinton a liberal. And of course, Bush was not exactly a war hero either, nor was he somebody who eschewed mind-altering substances. But I think it would be hard to argue that Clinton was an unsuccessful President. I mean, he was President during a period of peace and prosperity. And I think that the extent to which he deserves credit for either of those, it is up for debate. And you can argue that by not being more proactive with respect to terrorism, that he sowed the seeds for 9/11. So I do not think he will be badly remembered because of the substance of his presidency. I think that he will always be associated with Monica Lewinsky, which is too bad for him, but I think it is also too bad for all of us. Bush, I said that I am not sure that you really can characterize him as conservative. I think that in terms of domestic policy, there are many respects that he was not a conservative. He certainly was not a small government conservative. He cut taxes. I suppose that that is conservative. But he also increased federal spending in lots of ways. In my area, a mixed record at best in terms of civil rights. I think that history will judge him based on the War on Terror and how that turns out. That was certainly his top priority. And I do not know enough, and it may be that nobody really knows enough yet to know how successful he was, to what extent what he did is the reason why there were no subsequent successful attacks in the United States, whether the progress he made in fighting Al-Qaeda and killing or capturing its leaders made a big difference. We do not know yet. And of course, depending on how this President does, that will affect how he has judged.
SM (02:25:26):
A question I asked earlier about the trust factor, about how many boomers did not trust because leaders did things; well, as boomers’ approach senior citizen status, as the frontline boomers are now 62 years old, eligible for social security, the last two Presidents have also done things that are just the same old SOS, as they say. President Clinton being on television, "I did not have sex with that woman," and then George Bush, the weapons of mass destruction. As many people believe, there's two liars right there again. So it is just some people interpret it as such.
RC (02:26:04):
Well, I do not know. Of course, I am a conservative Republican, so maybe I have my own prejudices, but I think those are two very different statements. And I think that Clinton's statement that he did not have sex with Monica Lewinsky is either a flat-out lie, or what would in some ways be even worse, a sort of ... I forget how he worded it exactly, but something like, "Well, since I did not have actual vaginal intercourse, therefore I did not have sexual" ... you know. It would almost be better to lie, I think, than to mislead somebody and pretend that you're telling them the truth, the whole truth, which is what you would have there. I am not convinced, and I am not sure that anybody ... well, there probably are some people, but I am certainly not convinced that Bush, at the time he said that there were weapons of mass destruction, did not believe that there were weapons of mass destruction.
SM (02:27:38):
Colin Powell said it, and many people think that ruined his career.
RC (02:27:40):
Yeah. I mean, if you make a statement that turns out not to be true, but you thought it was true, that is not a lie.
SM (02:27:49):
Right. I agree.
RC (02:27:49):
You have made a false statement, but it is not a lie. A lie, there has to be intent. So if Bush knew that there were not weapons of mass destruction and was deliberately making a false statement, okay, well that is a lie. And truth be told, that would be a bigger lie than lying about sex, because the stakes are higher when you are telling a lie in order to justify getting the United States into a war as opposed to trying to save your own political high. But I do not think it was a lie.
SM (02:28:32):
I end by saying that President Obama's of course the last President of the boomers, and he is a boomer. He would have been two years old in the very end, but he still is a boomer. And of course, [inaudible] does not remember all this stuff, but it's too early to judge him overall. A lot of people want to judge him early. But-
RC (02:28:51):
Nobel prize.
SM (02:28:53):
Yeah. That really shocked me. But a lot of people that were involved in the anti- war movement, a lot of the liberals from that period, a lot of my friends feel that finally, after all these years, we had one of ours back in there. It was not Clinton. It is Obama. This is a man who really ... even though he was not in the (19)60s, is part of the (19)60s because of who he is, what he believes. Your thoughts on just the short term. And most of the times, when I interview people, I never get a chance to ask some of these questions here on the Presidents because I have sometimes only an hour, sometimes 30 minutes. So it is great. Just your thoughts so far on President Obama and what he really stands for. And to a lot of boomers, he stands for progress.
RC (02:29:40):
Well, I think that that is what a lot of conservatives are afraid of. They too think that Obama is much more left-wing than he ran as. And I think that there's a lot of evidence of that. And we will see. But of course, we elect Presidents. We do not elect kings. And that is relevant in two respects. Number one, no matter how liberal a president is, there are political constraints on what he can do. We have existing laws, we have courts, and we have Congress. Even though the Democrats do not control Congress, changing the laws, he has to go through Congress, and there are enough Republicans there to slow or even stop more radical kinds of change. On the other hand, when you elect a President, you elect not just the President, you elect a whole administration. I think on some issues, like civil rights, the President himself may have somewhat more conservative instincts than the people he is likely to appoint. But you are stuck with the political appointees, excepting the relatively rare instances where an issue gets [inaudible] away to the Presidents-
SM (02:31:52):
A lot of people believe that if Hillary had won and gotten in, there would be no difference. Just a different color. Because she is a liberal too.
RC (02:32:00):
Well, yeah. I think you have to ask, whatever they themselves think of these different views, they are going to be facing the same Congress, they are going to be facing the same constraints, and probably a lot of the people that they would have appointed would have been the same people. And so it is not a choice between King Barack and Queen Hillary. It is between an Obama administration and a Clinton administration. And there may not be a lot of difference between the two.
SM (02:32:36):
When the best history books are written, and they are normally written 50 years after an event ... a lot of the best World War II books are coming out now, and I wish my dad was alive to be able to read them, because he died seven years ago. But when the best history books are written about the boomer generation, maybe as boomers have passed beyond when they are alive, what do you think historians and sociologists will be saying about this generation? Because after all, the people that will be writing these books will not be boomers. They will be generation Xers who will be reaching old age, there will be millennials who will be in middle age, and there will be the following generation, generation Y or whatever it is called. What do you think they will be writing about this generation, and saying about it?
RC (02:33:30):
I do not think that they will be writing about it as a generation. Think about it. I think to some extent, this is a phenomenon of the fact that we are in it now, but 50 years from now, I think that most historians will write about individuals. Individual biographies and the individual issues and events and all that. And they may write about radicals in the 1960s, or conservatives in the 1960s, or civil rights leaders in the 1960s or something like that. But as we have discussed, I think that there is too much heterogeneity among boomers for it to be a useful analytical device for most history. And I think that it is rare to have history, I think, that focuses on generations. I think that most history looks at events and individuals and particular groups of individuals. Now, sometimes there are exceptions to that. And when we talked about the Civil War generation, that may be different. When you have a cataclysmic event like that, where literally a whole cohort of people are swept up and have to go off to war and a lot of them are killed, that may be different. And maybe even the greatest generation, with the twin events of World War II and the Depression, maybe you can treat that generation as... But still, when you think about it, when Brokaw wrote The Greatest Generation, this was something that was sort of new. People had not written about the (19)50s generation. Or I do not know what they would write about, but I think it is very novelty shows. This is not the way that history is normally written. And I think it will remain the exception, rather than the rule.
SM (02:36:40):
I cannot believe I did not ask you, just your quick thoughts on Martin Luther King Jr. He gave that great Vietnam speech, which set him apart from the other civil rights leaders, and he got criticized for it. But just your overall thoughts on him. You have already talked about Malcolm X. You have said some things about him. But Dr. King and his importance in this period?
RC (02:36:59):
Well, I think that King will be remembered. And the reason that we have a national holiday is because of his crusade for racial equality. And that was a literally heroic effort. I think the word heroism is overused these days, but in that time and place, he was putting his life on the line, and ultimately died because of the principle of racial equality. I think, unfortunately ... well, not unfortunately. In addition to believing in racial equality, he believed in economic redistribution and the anti-war movement and a lot of things like that, which are much more open to debate. But-
SM (02:38:13):
And he was a proponent that to get anything, you have got to agitate. You have got to continue to agitate. Now, he believed in the non-violent approach. He and Bayard Rustin were of the same realm, the non-violent approach. And that famous picture with Stokely Carmichael standing next to Dr. King. Dr. King had his arms like this, and obviously he was tense, because Stokely Carmichael was telling him, "Your time has passed." And he was telling him. And that is the same thing that Malcolm X did to Bayard Rustin in a debate they had at, I think, Columbia. "Your time has passed." Like James Farmer, Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, Ralph Abernathy, Martin Luther King, Bayard Rustin, all that group. Jesse, even though he was younger. "Your time's passed. Black power now." So Dr. King had to put up with a lot. Some people said he had the heart of a 70-year-old when he died, because he was under medicine, blood pressure. Unbelievable stuff.
RC (02:39:19):
Yeah, yeah, sure. I am sure that is all true.
SM (02:39:24):
But I have asked you a lot. Is there a question I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask that you wanted to add?
RC (02:39:30):
No, I do not think so. I will think about it. If there is anything I want to add, I will send you an email or call you up.
SM (02:39:38):
I have a waiver here, which I am missing. If I can find it here ... oh, got it. I guess we have to make a copy of this. Would you be able to make a copy?
RC (02:39:49):
Sure.
SM (02:39:50):
And then you could sign it and you can read it and keep a copy to yourself. I wrote on this one.
RC (02:39:53):
Oh, okay. That is all right.
SM (02:39:57):
See, the first 50 people, I did not know I had to have a waiver. I was new to this.
(End of Interview)
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Roger Clegg
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Clegg, Roger ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lawyers; Center for Equal Opportunity; Clegg, Roger--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Clegg is the President and General Counsel of the Center for Equal Opportunity. He was the Deputy Assistant Attorney General for both the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. He specializes in legal issues arising from civil rights laws including immigration and bilingual education. Clegg received his Bachelor's degree from Rice University and is a graduate of Yale University Law School.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.38a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.38b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-14
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
160:15
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/41929c1d533f34814c29f9c0915cb2dc.pdf
cb3f17e09856355d7c4481799b523a0b
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMTON
UNIVERSITY
usi
D E P A R T M E N T
HOLIDAY
MID-DAYCONCERT
Thursday, December
10, 2009
1:20 p.m.
Casadesus
Recital
Hall
�PROGRAM
Variations on "Puer nobis nascitur' ... ... .......... ... Jan Jacob van Eyck
{To Us a Son Is Born)
(1590-1657)
Timothy Perry, alto recorder
Timothy LeFebvre , baritone
Masters in this Ha/1 .. ... .... ..... ... ..:.... .. ... ... .... .... ............ William Morris
arr. Peter Browne
(1834-1896)
S'vivon .. ....... .. .... ..... ..... .... .... .. .. ........... ... ... .......... Hebrew Traditional
arr. Joshua Jacobson
Winter Wonderland ....... .. ...... ......... Felix Bernard and Richard Smith
arr. Peter Browne
(1897-1944) (1901-1935)
Joy to the World......... ............ ... ........ Isaac Watts and Lowell Mason
(1674-1748) (1792-1872)
Boar's Head Carol .......... ... ..... ...... ... ... ....... .... ..... Traditional English
arr. Peter Browne
Members of the Harpur Chorale
All the Things You Are .......... ....................................... Jerome Kern
arr. Lennnie Niehaus
(1885-1945)
Ragtime Suite ... ... ... ... ..... ... .... .... ...... ...... ... .......... ...... ... .. Scott Joplin
(1868-1917)
Something Doing
The Cascades·
Dan Fagen, soprano sax; Nathan Rose, alto sax;
Andy Block, tenor sax; Dean Papadopoulos, baritone sax
In Dulci Jubilo, from Musae Sioniae (1607) .... ..... Michael Praetorius
(In Sweet Jubilation)
(1571-1621)
Matthew Hassel, Heather Worden, Timothy Perry, clarinets
Zach Stanco, bass clarinet
Dan Fagen, soprano sax; Nathan Rose, alto sax;
Andy Block, tenor sax; Dean Papadopoulos, baritone sax
Le Sommeil de L'Enfant Jésus .......... .. .... ........ ... ....... .. Henri Busser
(Cradle Song for Christmas Eve)
Mary Burgess, soprano
William James Lawson , piano
(1872-1973)
�Felicity ..................... ............. ................................ Raymond Premru
(1934-1998)
Jingle Bells ...................................................... James Lord Pierpont
arr. Ted Blumenthal
(1822-1893)
We Wish You a Merry Christmas ...................... .. .. ........ .... Traditional
Jay Bartishevich, Bill Marsiglia, Rob Menard, trombones
Damon Dye, euphonium; Matt Gukowski, tuba
0 Holy Night ............................................................ Adolphe Adam
( 1803-1856)
Timothy LeFebvre, baritone
Mary Burgess, soprano
Jonathan Biggers, piano
Le Sommeil de L'Enfant Jésus
(Cradle Song for Christmas Eve)
The bells are ringing in the night,
Their joyous voices lead us to the Baby in the humble crib,
Lying in the fragrant hay.
Sleep, little Jesus, sleep, sweet cherub!
Your mother watches over you all through the night. Sleep.
Our hearts are full of hope;
We have faith in your love!
Rest sweetly, Jesus, dearest child! Sleep!
To God we shout our joy!
Noël! Sing we Noël!
Always we sing Noël!
Noël, the blessed feast, the day of deliverance!
A Savior is born; we kneel before him here at his feet.
Noël! Midnight all mysterious; everything sleeps around us.
Rest sweetly, Jesus, dearest Child!
Sleep, sweet cherub.
Ah, how many resplendent wings are there around you,
As the angels, dainty hands crossed,
Give shelter to your divine face.
Sleep, sweet cherub!
Noël! Noël! Noël!
�Binghamton University Music Department's
:.
UPCOMING EVENTS
Friday, December 11th Singing Chinese Class Recital, 7:00 PM,
Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Saturday, December 12thFaculty Fireworks: Winter Winds (with
the University Symphony Orchestra) - a gala benefit concert for the
Music Department, 8:00 PM, Osterhout Concert Theater, $$
Sunday, December 13th Master's Recital: Jenean Truax, soprano,
3:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Tuesday, December 15thMaster's Recital: Jana Kucera, soprano,
7:30 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Sunday, January 24th University Chamber Chorus, 3:00 PM - FREE
Trinity Memorial Church, Binghamton
For ticket information, please call the
Anderson Center Box Office at 777-ARTS.
•
'·
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: PDF / Rosetta
PDF with Rosetta audio/video link
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 audio disc
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
42:45
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153832">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153832</a>
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
PDF Layout
This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous']
Options:
'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width.
'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width.
'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height.
'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height.
'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.)
'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.)
FacingCover
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Holiday mid-day concert, December 10, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-12-10
Description
An account of the resource
Held at 1:20 p.m., December 10, 2009, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/224bf36e72b71c637343a9268dd4e0a8.jpg
e6c7d56c52b2a3e78f2eca2b97389a42
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/edbc614873d4137fc049bb6701ef4f08.mp3
6df18ab684ff70583796da5d5aa9ce1f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2009-12-11
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Meta Mendel-Reyes
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Meta Mendel Reyes is a professor at Berea College and she teaches Peace as well as Social Justice. She received her Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of California at Berkeley. She loves to be a community service worker for people in California and she helps people in Philadelphia with race-related issues."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Meta Mendel Reyes is a professor at Berea College, where she teaches Peace as well as Social Justice. She received her Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of California at Berkeley. She loves to be a community service worker for people in California and she helps people in Philadelphia with race-related issues.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Kent State; Assassination of John F Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Women's movement; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-war movement; Chicano Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Vietnam War; Activism; College campus; Vietnam Memorial."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Kent State; Assassination of John F Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Women's movement; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-war movement; Chicano Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Vietnam War; Activism; College campus; Vietnam Memorial.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
71:15
Subject LCSH
College teachers; Berea College; Social justice; Mendel-Reyes, Meta--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dr. Meta Mendel-Reyes
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mendel-Reyes, Meta ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
College teachers; Berea College; Social justice; Mendel-Reyes, Meta--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Meta Mendel-Reyes is a professor at Berea College, where she teaches Peace as well as Social Justice. She received her Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of California at Berkeley. She loves to be a community service worker for people in California and she helps people in Philadelphia with race-related issues.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.98
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
71:15
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d030771d3a56d74cab404a1736dcd8fe.jpg
dd1fc508dd35c0e0dcbb841942d7ed8c
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/06e53e7fea887bb9d6469337f8991acd.mp3
14372d253dead6c1740f2e9eb2744803
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field.
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2009-12-12
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Philip Caputo
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for Horn of Africa. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6531,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for the <em>Horn of Africa</em>. </span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Drug culture; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Walter Cronkite."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Drug culture; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Walter Cronkite.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
140:17
Subject LCSH
Journalists; Authors; Marines; Caputo, Philip--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Phil Caputo
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 12 December 2012
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:02):
... Going here. When you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
PC (00:00:09):
The first thing that comes to mind. Well, okay. I was not ready for that one for some reason. Well, the war does to me. I cannot think of a specific time or scene in the war, but that is what I think of. I mean, I always revert with that era back to Vietnam, the war.
SM (00:00:50):
When-
PC (00:00:51):
And then probably the other thing, of course, it sticks in my mind now I think of it, let us say there is two first things. One is just the war in general, and then more specifically was the Democratic convention riots in (19)68 in Chicago, which I happened to cover part of that.
SM (00:01:12):
Oh, wow.
PC (00:01:13):
... As a Cub reporter, so that is probably why it sticks in my mind.
SM (00:01:18):
Well, since you mentioned that, what really happened at that convention in (19)68? Who was responsible or was it both of the police being overly brutal or a lot of irresponsible young people creating habits?
PC (00:01:35):
Oh, it was absolutely both. It was like a bull fight between the matador and the bull. You cannot have one without the other. And now you can argue as to who was the matador and who was the bull. But there was kind of dynamic operating there where, I cannot say all the protestors because there were thousands of them, but many of them. And particularly I think some of the more radical leaders, wanted to provoke a violent police response and a lot of the cops wanted to respond violently so they in effect provoked each other.
SM (00:02:33):
When you think about that experience, what did you think about America at that time? Because you insert in Vietnam, I think in (19)65 and (19)66, came back home. Then as we get into the (19)67, (19)68 period, things kind of rev up in the United States in terms of anti-war. But you probably had a lot of different feelings as a person who served, came back, and then was back as a reporter. Just your thoughts on just being in that experience and your thoughts on America at that time.
PC (00:03:10):
Well, I remember distinctly, and it started well before actually (19)67 or (19)68 when I got back from Vietnam in the summer of (19)66 and I got home right after some of the Watts riots in Los Angeles, the race riots. And then similar riots occurred in (19)66, I think also in Chicago, which was where I was from. And I remember when I flew home reading, seeing these headlines in the paper about these really extensive race riots, for lack of a better term, I guess, and feeling really uneasy. And that increased his time went on. So that by (19)68, I had the feeling that America was going to fragment into something like a new civil war. And I really felt that the society was beginning to pull itself into pieces. And a lot of it too was reflected in a lot of the pop music of the day, that Creedence Clearwater song, Bad Moon Rising, and oh, I think it was, I cannot remember. I do not think he wrote it then, but it certainly embodied some of the spirit, like Fortunate Son and some of those tunes, that had this almost doom haunted quality about them. I really felt like we were going to be lucky to hang together as a society and as a country.
SM (00:05:27):
When you look at that Boomer generation, which is that young generation that was born between (19)46 and (19)64, what are some of the qualities that you admired in the young generation at that time and the qualities you are least admired?
PC (00:05:45):
Well, I can sort of speak as an almost outsider. I think I told you in the email is I am not a Boomer.
SM (00:05:54):
I want to mention that over half the people we have interviewed are not Boomers but they lived during the time.
PC (00:05:59):
Yeah. I am four years shy of it.
SM (00:06:01):
Right.
PC (00:06:05):
Well, I think the quality that I admired most was, again, we have to qualify these things. We are talking about a segment of that particular generational cohort, but a significant segment both in terms of its numbers and of its educational level or its leadership level would be a better way to put it. And what I admired was its commitment to improving the world, of wanting to make a better world. It was real. And I think there was definitely a very passionate feeling throughout that generation toward that end. And this is what I least admired about it, is that it was a generation that had never really known hardship. It was probably one of the very first truly privileged generations in America. And so consequently, whenever what it wanted and what its goals were and so forth, were frustrated. I think it tended to act immaturely, almost, I do not know. There were sometimes some of those war anti-war protests that I covered as a reporter almost struck me as these vast mass temper tantrums. And unfortunately, a lot of its political commitment got co-opted, even commercialized and became very self-indulgent.
SM (00:08:20):
How do you respond to this feeling that many felt that they were the most unique generation in American history? Because I can remember being on college campus at that time and this feeling of community and togetherness, that we are a generation that is going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, end war. We are going to do things that no other generation has done, bring peace to the world. This feeling of uniqueness that they had, and I think some Boomers still have it as they approach 60 years of age. The oldest Boomers now are approaching early retirement [inaudible] social security, so, but some still believe that. So, what are your thoughts on their feeling unique?
PC (00:09:05):
Well, I do not know about unique. There was a generation in the thirties that was certainly is politically committed as the generation of the (19)60s, maybe committed to some different ends to improving a lot of the common man to things like the Labor Movement and so forth. And they were very committed and they wanted to change the world in the way things had been done for decades, if not centuries. But I would say that the (19)60s generation was if not unique, certainly highly unusual. And they did. As I said, one of the things I admired is they wanted to end all of these ills of, like you said, end the war, poverty, end homophobia, end the exploitation of the environment and so forth, end sexism. By all those movements, the environmental movement, feminist movement, and the civil rights movement, although they certainly did not begin during the (19)60s, that the whole revolutionary impulse advanced those causes. And interestingly, just as something aside is that the fury generated by the war, the anti-war movement, I think was the fire and the boiler. I have a feeling that had there been no Vietnam War and no anti-war movement, all of those movements I just talked about, the civil rights, the feminist’s movement, and the environmental movement, and probably, well, those three [inaudible], I think they would have proceeded at a slower pace and probably at a more peaceful pace.
SM (00:11:30):
It is interesting because that was my next question. Because oftentimes all these movements developed when they were young, and people have different feelings of these movements as they have gotten older and how effective they are compared to what they were then. One of the things that is interesting is many of these movements, if you see a protest, many of these same groups that were unique in their own way, were all together at the protests. You have to include the Native American movement, the Ang group, certainly the Chicano movement, and the gay and lesbian movement along with civil rights, anti-war, the women's movement and the environmental movement. And I even believe the disability movement was starting then so that these were all kind of connected.
PC (00:12:16):
Yeah, they were. They all drew energy, I think. They were cables leading to the same generator, and I think they were all, again, fueled by the same impulse which was to change the world for the better.
SM (00:12:38):
This is a question I have asked everyone. When you hear people like Newt Gingrich and George Will and other political pundits criticize the (19)60s generation or the era of the (19)60s and (19)70s as the time that America really started going backward, the breakdown of American society. There will always be commentaries where the divorce rate began then, lack of commitment and in terms of family, victim mentality was really started around then, the drug culture, the breakup of the American family, you name it. And the Democratic party paid a heavy price in (19)72, and George McGovern lost. And I can remember Barney Frank wrote a book speaking frankly saying the Democratic party better disassociate itself from that left group that was anti-war or that party will be destroyed. Just your thoughts on these criticisms that all the problems in American society are based on that period.
PC (00:13:50):
Put it this way, it is a half-truth. In other words, what they are saying is true insofar as it goes, but what they are not saying makes it somewhat of a falsification. I am convinced that a lot of the good things, at least to my mind good things, that have happened in America since then would not have happened had it not been for, again, the call it that revolutionary highly idealistic spirit. The problem is that I think in any social movement... Well, let me back up a second. It is not unlike what a lot of economic conservatives, when they talk about capitalism, they talk about capitalism's creative destruction, if you are familiar with that term. That is kind of what happened in the (19)60s. There is no doubt that, again, the self-indulgent face of that generation is largely responsible for the prevalence of drug use in America. The idea that society had to be remade from the bottom up has been responsible for the breakup of the American family or partly responsible, again, the self-indulgence for the higher divorce rate, but only in part. So, in other words, a lot of things that a George will or a Newt Gingrich say, again, are true insofar as they go, but they leave out the other side of the argument.
SM (00:16:10):
What were the watershed moment when the (19)60s began and when the (19)60s ended?
PC (00:16:20):
Well, I have actually talked about this in some speeches I have given. And to my own mind, I certainly would not speak as some kind of historian who is giving you something chiseled in stone. To my own mind. The (19)60s began with the assassination of John Kennedy in November 21st, 1963, and they ended with the fall of Saigon.
SM (00:16:57):
That was April 30th of 1975, I believe.
PC (00:17:01):
Yeah. So, what we called the (19)60s actually was only part of the (19)60s and was also part of the (19)70s.
SM (00:17:13):
I have asked this question, and again, I can get different responses. But if you were in a room with 500 Boomers and these Boomers were from all over the country, and they were of all ethnic groups, males, female, different qualities, and you asked them if is there one event in your life that had the greatest impact on you, what do you think that event would be? And we're talking about Boomer lives that had lots of events.
PC (00:17:47):
Yeah. Boy, that would be a one event. Well, probably again, this Boomer generation since some of them were, I think do not sociologists classify it as being up people born up to 1964?
SM (00:18:07):
Yes.
PC (00:18:09):
So I got to qualify that a little bit. I got to split my answer. I would say for older Boomers, the assassination of John Kennedy would be the signal event. For younger ones, I would call it the Kent State shootings.
SM (00:18:32):
Right. Now, I have a question on that later in the interview that we will go into. How important in your views were the college students in ending the Vietnam War? All the protests on college campuses?
PC (00:18:49):
I do not think very effective at all.
SM (00:18:52):
Explain in detail or just your thoughts.
PC (00:18:57):
Well, first of all, what really ended the war was the North Vietnamese invasion of South Vietnam in 1975. But I think you are really talking about our part in the war. And what led to the withdrawal of American forces from there was the growing perception on the part of the American mainstream, the American middle class, what Nixon called the silent majority, that the war was futile, that we were wasting many lives and a lot of money over there toward no end or an uncertain end. And I think that is what led, we can argue about Nixon's how much withdrawing he really did have American forces, but he did begin to withdraw them even if it took it four years. And I think that is really what ended the war. Probably if there was one event that encapsulated that feeling, it was the moment when Walter Cronkite, the great face of the American mainstream, said at the end of his newscast that, I do not recall his exact words, but he pretty much told the American public that his experiences in Vietnam had led him to the conviction that it was not a winnable war and that we ought to get out.
SM (00:20:48):
And again, this is just from your personal observations from being a reporter, a writer, an observer of America over the past 40 plus years, do you think Boomers have been good parents and now grandparents? And I preface this by saying that the generation is often looked upon as an activist generation, but only really 15 percent in my readings of the period were involved in any kind of an activism and 85 percent just went on with their lives.
PC (00:21:23):
Yeah, I wanted to bring that up too.
SM (00:21:24):
But subconsciously though, probably all of them were somewhat affected by this. And I am just curious as your thoughts on if you feel the Boomer generation of 74 to 78 million depending on what you read, have been good parents, not only in terms of sharing what it was like when they were young and giving their sons and daughters a belief in idealism that they can be positive change agents for the betterment of society, just activism or just your thoughts on them as parents and now as believe it or not as grandparents?
PC (00:22:01):
Yeah, I do not think I could answer that for when you are talking, what did you say, 74 million people?
SM (00:22:12):
Yeah.
PC (00:22:15):
I just know about my wife, my second wife, is a Boomer who was born in (19)53, and my sister-in-law who was born in (19)55 as a Boomer, let me think. I got friends of mine who were born in the late forties. I am just speaking of them. The ones that I know, that is all I can tell you.
SM (00:22:37):
That is fine. That is fine.
PC (00:22:38):
The ones that I know have been certainly I would say probably better parents than I was. I was really an old school parent, old school father, kind of disassociated somewhat from the lives of my children. I was the stern, ex-marine disciplinarian kind of thing. And the ones I have seen were much more involved, I think, in the lives of their children and really hands on in getting to do well in school and to achieve something in life. That is about all I can say. And I am talking about maybe at most 10 people, 10 sets of parents I should say. And I could not speak for such a huge ass number.
SM (00:23:49):
This is something very important. I got two more big questions here, and I am going to get into really direct questions on your experiences in Vietnam and the impact, and your writing and everything. I have to read this one though. I took a group of students when I was working at Westchester University, it must have been about 10 years ago now. We took a group of 14 student leaders to Washington DC to meet Senator Edmund Muskie. And we were able to arrange this because Senator Nelson was a friend of his, and we had a series of meeting former senators. And one of the questions the students came up with was a question that we asked him, the one I am going to read to you, and we got an unusual response from him. And let me read it here. Do you feel Boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, the division between Black and White, divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. What role did the wall play in healing divisions? Or was it primarily a healing for veterans? And do you feel that the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, "Time heals all wounds," a truth? And I just want to mention that we thought Senator Muskie was going to talk about the (19)68 convention, which he was the candidate. And he kind of gave a melodramatic pause and he said, "I just saw the Ken Burns series in the Civil War when I was in the hospital." He had just gotten out of the hospital. "And we have not healed since the Civil War." And then he went out to talk for about 10, 15 minutes on that and never even talked about (19)68. Your thoughts on the healing issue in America. Is this an issue?
PC (00:25:47):
Well, I would not call it an issue. I would simply say that first of all, I really understand where Muskie was coming from when he mentioned the Civil War. Because again, in certain talks that I would give on topics like this one, I have talked about the American Civil War and how the repercussions of it just echoed and echoed for at least a century after Appomattox and probably longer than a century. And again, we must be careful, but I guess we have to for sake of argument of setting up these dichotomies, those who supported the troops and those who did not and blah, blah, blah. But just for the sake of argument, we will say that they existed. Well, it is quite obvious that among that Boomer generation, that those divisions in attitude and outlook and politics have echoed very loudly down to our own bay. And all you had to do was take a look at the 2004 presidential election. That is the one that I have cited quite often, is that all of those serpents that have been crawling around in the mines of the Boomer generation came out when Kerry ran against Bush.
SM (00:27:29):
Yes.
PC (00:27:30):
It was almost like the two of them were incarnations of the two faces of that particular generation.
SM (00:27:42):
Could you talk a little bit-
PC (00:27:43):
I remember actually being called by, I do not know why he called me, but he did. I was called by a reporter from the Houston Chronicle during all that business of the Swift boat veterans and so forth. And he asked what I thought about it. And I said, "Well, here we are involved in two other wars now, the Iraq and Afghanistan, and we are re-fighting this one," I said, "That took place 35 years ago." I reminded him that more time had passed between 2004 and the end of the Vietnam War than it had passed between the Custer Massacre and the beginning of World War I. And he agreed. He said he was 33 or years old or something at the time, or 35, and he said he was just stunned by this. He said, "Why are these guys re-fighting these old battles?" Well, it is the same reason that I guess the South and the North and the Confederates and the Union people really re-fought the Civil-
PC (00:29:03):
People really re-fought the Civil War in one form or another for, as I say, a century after the last shot was fired.
SM (00:29:12):
That is really interesting. When I asked that question to Senator Nelson, he said, "Well, people do not go across Washington or are not walking on down the street of Washington DC with lack of healing on their wrists or on their shirts." But he did say Vietnam will forever have an impact on the body politic, and I thought that was very prophetic. And Mr. Caputo, one of the interesting things is that just about every foreign policy happening that takes place, people always talk about Vietnam. It's amazing.
PC (00:29:49):
[inaudible] Right now, with Afghanistan, is that second thing.
SM (00:29:52):
If you recall when President Reagan came into power, he said, "America is back." And he emphatically was saying, from the divisions that we had back in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and he was going to change America back to the way it was, kind of like John Wayne. And then of course, President Bush senior talked about the Vietnam syndrome is over. And again, I am going to get into some direct questions here, but when you think of Ronald Reagan's presidency and what he meant to America, and when you think about George Bush Sr and his presidency and saying the Vietnam syndrome was over, as a Vietnam vet, what were your thoughts on those two presidents and what they said?
PC (00:30:36):
Well, if we take George Bush Sr first, when he said the Vietnam syndrome, he was defining it very narrowly, and not even toward foreign policy, it was toward military action. And he was just basically saying that we are no longer fearful of committing military forces toward the defense or furtherance of our interests, the way we had been, I guess, paralyzed or semi-paralyzed in the wake that Vietnam. That is what he was saying. Then, I think he was right about that. In other words, that he was correct in his analysis of it, I think somewhat to our misfortune. I think had we been a bit more reluctant, we may not have gotten involved in what I still regard as this really stupid and unnecessary war in Iraq. Now, as far as Reagan went, I think what happened there was that the voice of the other people you were talking about, that 85 percent who had gotten on with their lives, or perhaps that 85 percent whose voice is heard in the Newt Gingrich’s and the George Will’s, that particular aspect of the boomer generation found its hero. When I think of Reagan though, the thing that troubles me, and by the way, I voted for him, and I am a lifelong Democrat. And I voted for him the first time, with Carter and all that, and then did not the second time. But the one thing that troubled me about his administration was I think the elevating of that materialistic element in the American character into a kind of, I do not know, almost a dogma, a sacred text. I remember when he said that something about the great glory of America, or the great thing about America is that anybody can become a millionaire. And now, that is been with us probably maybe our entire history, but certainly since the advent of the industrial age in America. But I remember being struck by that, and I said, "That is it? That is what this country is all about? Becoming a millionaire?" And I think that that led a lot to that, to what I would call the transformation of the self-indulgent aspect of the boomer generation into that scramble in the (19)80s to just make lots and lots and lots of money.
SM (00:34:08):
Yeah, I think-
PC (00:34:08):
I certainly saw all kinds of boomers who told me that they had been in anti-war protests, stuff like that, who were working on Wall Street and raking it in. I can remember one guy, as a matter of fact, we were in the Oak Room of the Plaza Hotel, he and his wife, and me and my wife. And I do not know, he had been in a couple of marches and all that. Now, I think he was some sort of rising muckety muck with Salomon Brothers or Goldman Sack, I forget which. And we were drinking martinis. And then I said, "Oh, man, we got to get back to Connecticut, my wife and me, and we got to catch a cab and catch a train." He says, "Oh, fuck the cab, fuck the train." And he just gets on the phone and [inaudible] this stretch limo and takes us all home. So that, to me, was the Reagan era. That is one of the things that bothered me about that era was. And then I think too, is that just in a specific policy argument, that deficit spending that he led us into-
SM (00:35:36):
You still there?
PC (00:35:37):
... has been really detrimental. And his breaking up of labor unions, when I told you I am an old-time democrat, that [inaudible] electrical...
SM (00:35:47):
Oh, hold on one second. Can you hold on one second?
PC (00:35:51):
Yeah, sure.
SM (00:35:51):
Okay. Somebody is trying to get... You still there?
PC (00:35:53):
Yeah. Still here.
SM (00:35:55):
That was my brother.
PC (00:35:56):
Oh, okay.
SM (00:35:58):
Go ahead. That is okay. Go ahead.
PC (00:36:03):
Oh [inaudible]. See, where was I? Hold on.
SM (00:36:05):
You were a martini and you were going to fly back and...
PC (00:36:09):
Oh, yeah. Well, I think that was when I mentioned that Reagan also, I think, led to, accelerated the breakup of the American labor movement, which I think has been detrimental to our society. I think it is hardened class lines. I think it has been partly responsible for the lack of growth in wages for the American working man and woman. And I criticize them for that. I was sorry I voted for him for that reason alone.
SM (00:36:51):
No, a lot of people, in recent articles, said that part of the problems we are having in America in the economy today is that self-indulgent boomer generation. Spend, spend, spend, spend, materialism, and then of course, the credit card problems and everything. So, a lot of blames been put on them even for that.
PC (00:37:11):
Yeah. Well, I think that that is going a bit far. I see all these people who pouring into Walmart, or at least they were before the economy collapsed.
SM (00:37:30):
Exactly.
PC (00:37:30):
And I do not think they were responding to some sort leadership from the boomer generation in that. I just think that there is a lot of reasons why we're economically here. But I think that some of Reagan's policies are certainly responsible.
SM (00:37:47):
If you were to just respond directly to this question, why did the Vietnam War end? Why did it end? Some people say it ended when body bags came, when families in middle America had their boys are coming home in body bags in middle America. That that was really the beginning of the end. Why did we lose that war?
PC (00:38:15):
Well as, wait just a second. Could you hold on one second?
SM (00:38:21):
Yep.
PC (00:38:21):
I thought I heard somebody at the door.
SM (00:38:24):
Okay.
PC (00:38:24):
May not have been. Hold on.
SM (00:38:26):
Yep. Yep.
PC (00:38:27):
It was false alarm.
SM (00:38:32):
Okay.
PC (00:38:33):
Now, the question was is why did we lose the war?
SM (00:38:36):
Yes.
PC (00:38:38):
Well, I think it has been pointed out in a lot of, not just books and interpretations, but the direct testimony of the Lyndon Johnson tapes, that a lot of people, that Johnson, Senator Russell back then, and then a lot of the great minds of that time knew that the war was not winnable to begin with. So why was it not winnable? Is that it was basically a civil war between, just as ours was, between the north and the south. The north was as motivated by Vietnamese nationalism and a drive or desire to unite the country as it was by Marxist ideology. In many ways, Marxist ideology just simply provided the framework and the discipline for those nationalistic aims to be realized. There is a lot of strategic military reasons. We had extremely long lines of supply and communication. We were fighting in an alien culture, about which we knew next to nothing. It was partly a conventional war, but partly also an insurgency, and it's always very difficult for foreign powers to win insurgencies. And I think for all those reasons, and in the end, probably the main reason was is it was always the South Vietnamese's war to win or lose. Yeah, South Vietnamese society was too fragmented and too confused in its aims to win the war against the north. But I think what happened in (19)75, there is all sorts of people say, "Oh, if we had sent the B-52s in there, that the North would not have won. Well, yes, we probably would have stopped them in (19)75. And then I would say that in 1977, they would have tried the same thing again, and we would have just gone on and on and on.
SM (00:41:28):
One of the qualities that somewhat linked to the boomers is this issue of trust. Boomers went through their lives seeing leaders lie to them. Of course, Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, Nixon and Watergate, even in recent years, as boomers got older, the questions of President Kennedy, how much did he know about the DM overthrow? And Sorensen's tried to clarify that in his latest book, but there were still questions. And even young boomers saw President Eisenhower lying on TV about the U2 incident. And I remember that, coming home from school and seeing him say those things. The next day, he admitted he had lied or had not told the truth. And of course, we would go on and on and on through a lot of different presidents, whether they lied or did not quite tell the truth. When I was in college, I remember a college professor telling me that the issue of trust is very important, if you are to be a success in life as a human being. And to not trust others means that you may not be a success yourself in life. And I asked myself, that is always stuck with me. And Boomers just never... Or the (19)60s was just a-a period where many of them did not trust anybody in positions of responsibility, whether they be a university president or a vice president of student affairs or a minister or a priest or a politician or a president or a corporate leader, anybody in a position of responsibility, there was a lacking trust. Your thoughts on whether this is indeed a quality that many in the boomer generation had? And if this is a really negative quality to have as boomers age, what has this done in terms of raising their children to think the same?
PC (00:43:29):
Well, first of all, yeah, question one is that, yes, I do think that the distrust of official authority, maybe not now, but certainly was a characteristic of many of that generation, not all. Do not forget, again, we're talking about this percentage of them that was the most visible and the most vocal. But it was justified. The fact of the matter is they and the entire American public were lied to in big ways, repeatedly. And Winston Churchill once famously said that during wartime, the truth must be guarded by a body guard of lies. And yes, every now and then, it is necessary for national security reasons to lie or at least to shape the truth or withhold the truth. But in this case here, our national security was not involved, whether we're talking about Vietnam, or there was other things going on Southeast Asia, Laos and Thailand, I remember was there was problems there and so forth. And the Diem execution is another example. Our national security was not involved there. These were the secrets of the CIA. So that boomers who distrusted official authority, in many of its forms, were right to feel so. Because the highest levels of their government were lying to them consistently and in ways that could and did affect their very lives. Because of those lies, there's 60,000 dead guys up there now, memorialized on that wall. And probably twice as many without arms or legs or eyes or even minds. Now, so far as it being a trait that is going to, I do not know what, make you a failure or something like that, I do not buy that. I think that questioning authority is basically a good thing. Because I am an old reporter, so skepticism is part of my DNA.
SM (00:46:30):
All right.
PC (00:46:32):
Yeah. So that skepticism's part of my DNA as an old reporter, but I think that one should be skeptical of what one hears.
SM (00:46:43):
Could you comment on, again, how important the music was of the boomer generation, in terms of not only rock folk and the Motown sound, but how important that was in inspiring the generation? It obviously had quite an impact. And secondly, what were the books that you were reading that you felt had the greatest impact, not only on you, but on these young boomers as they were in the (19)60s and (19)70s?
PC (00:47:18):
I think that as far as the famed music of that era, the protest music and all that, obviously it coalesced as all art, pop, whether it is high art or low art or pop art or some other art coalesced, the spirit of the times gave people anthems that they could identify with. Although, I think the music, like most of the culture of the time, I meant the artistic culture, was more a product of the times than it actually shaped times. Two books that I remember most, that affected me the most during that time were Catch-22 and Slaughterhouse Five.
SM (00:48:11):
Huh. What did those books say to you?
PC (00:48:16):
Well, Catch-22, first of all, is that on a literary sense, it kind of showed that the traditional novel need not be the only form of the novel, that there were radical new ways to go about writing a novel. I would say that for both of them, particularly for Slaughterhouse five. And both of them just discussed, explored at great length, not the tragedy of war, but the absurdity of it. And, of course, Catch-22 went beyond that, and just into an examination of the absurdity of modern bureaucratic society, with the military that Heller described being a microcosm of that society.
SM (00:49:22):
What do you think of the movies that have been made since the war and trying to explain the Vietnam experience, your thoughts on them? And secondly, well, just respond to that first.
PC (00:49:38):
Well, I think that it has been pretty uneven. Except for the most surrealistic of all the films. That was Apocalypse Now. I have not been overly impressed with what Hollywood has turned out [inaudible]. Although there was a rather obscure film called Go Tell It to the Spartans.
SM (00:50:18):
Oh, wow.
PC (00:50:18):
That came out, and I think it was Burt Lancaster was in it. And I thought that that was a very good film that it certainly, but it looked at an aspect of the Vietnam War rather than was a kind of big, sweeping epic of the whole war. So, no, I have not been overwhelmed by any of films.
SM (00:50:46):
What other books on Vietnam that do you really like? Whether they be novels or just non-fiction books that you really think are the best, for the respect to telling the story about Vietnam in the (19)60s?
PC (00:51:04):
Well, I could not say the (19)60s. I would have to think about that. But as far as the Vietnam War goes, for my own taste, the two best novels were Tim O'Brien's Going After Cacciato and The Things They Carried. But you can argue The Things They Carried is really a novel or a series of short stories, but we will not get into that hairsplitting at the moment. I think there were several other very fine novels about it, that were more traditional kinds of novels, but that were very, very good. Like Webb's Fields of Fire, and Joseph Del Vecchio's The 13th Valley. Those were more in the kind of Norman Mailer Naked and the Dead tradition. But I think they were very good. The best nonfiction that I have read about it was, without question, again, there's some really good ones, but was, without question, was A Bright Shining Lie, Sheehan's.
SM (00:52:36):
What do you think of how-
PC (00:52:37):
But followed by, I would say, followed very closely by Fire in the Lake, The Best and the Brightest, and Once Upon a Distant War, which was not so much about the war, it was about the media or press coverage about the war, but it was very, very, very good.
SM (00:52:58):
What did you think of David Halberstam's The Making of a Quagmire?
PC (00:53:07):
I guess that is sort of overshadowed in my... No, I was not bowled over by it the way I was by the other ones.
SM (00:53:15):
And one last book I want to mention, and did you have a chance to read Fortunate Son by Lewis Puller?
PC (00:53:21):
No, I did not.
SM (00:53:22):
Go ahead, it is a great book.
PC (00:53:24):
Yeah. I was told it was, and I think by the time it came out, I was kind of saturated with the subject.
SM (00:53:33):
Photography has been very important part of any era. It explains an era. The picture says a thousand words. When you think of the Vietnam, but when you think of the (19)60s, what are the photography pictures that first come to mind? I have three that I really pinpointed here, but I would like your responses before I mention my three.
PC (00:53:56):
Well, let us see. I got to think about as far as Vietnam goes, one, in fact, there is a signed copy of it hangs on my wall. It was Don McLellan's photograph from the Battle of Wei during the Tet Offensive, of what appears to be this shell shocked Marine. I forgot if he has got a title for it or not. And it's on the more recent paperback, the 1996 paperback edition of Rumor of War has a sepia tone version of that photograph as its cover. If you can take a look at it.
SM (00:54:42):
Okay.
PC (00:54:43):
Then the second one, again, from Vietnam, would be Larry Burrow's photograph of these wounded Marines on this miserable shell-pocked muddy hilltop, somewhere near the DMZ, and one guy has got bandage around his eyes.
SM (00:55:05):
Yep, I remember that one. Yeah.
PC (00:55:06):
And he is reaching his hand out to somebody else. That photograph. And then there is, and I cannot remember the photographer on this one, but there is a haunting picture of a medevac, and it is a captain deep in the jungle somewhere with a dead soldier covered by a body bag next to him. And he is calling a helicopter in through some clearing in the jungle. And there is this almost ethereal light shining down on this captain as he looks toward the sky. It could almost be corny, but it is not.
SM (00:55:54):
Wow.
PC (00:55:54):
Those three. Boy, now, far as the (19)60 era goes, but I cannot think of any specific.
SM (00:56:09):
The three that I was thinking of was the girl standing over the body at Kent State.
PC (00:56:16):
Right. I was about to say that one. And, of course, I know we're back to Vietnam though, but it was the famous one of the AP photograph of the Napalm Girl.
SM (00:56:30):
Yep. That is Kim-
PC (00:56:31):
The little girl with her clothes blown off.
SM (00:56:33):
Kim Phuc.
PC (00:56:33):
But yeah. Yeah. And there was another one from the (19)60s, and it is just vague in my mind, but I-
SM (00:56:46):
There is the other one that was the two athletes, the (19)68 Olympics, Tommy Smith and Carlos raising their fists.
PC (00:56:55):
Yeah. No, that was not one of mine. This was-
SM (00:57:00):
My Lai?
PC (00:57:01):
No, it was not that either. It was something from that Chicago convention riot. But I cannot remember who the photographer was and exactly was, but it was this picture of this protestor with this blood coming down over his face after he has been clubbed. And it looks like all the little trickles of blood look like cracks in a window pane.
SM (00:57:31):
Wow.
PC (00:57:31):
But that is all I can, that one’s sticks in my mind.
SM (00:57:38):
There is three quotes I want to mention from period that may define this period. One of the quotes is Malcolm X, "By any means necessary." The second one is the quote from Bobby Kennedy, which I believe was a Henry David Thoreau original quote. And that is, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were, and ask why not." And the third one is from a Peter-
SM (00:58:03):
... were and ask why not? And the third one is from a Peter Max poster that was very popular on college campuses in the early (19)70s. And on the wording on that one was, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." It was those three, from different angles, from a more radical, from Malcolm to the idealistic beliefs that many boomers had with Bobby Kennedy, and then the kind of a hippie love and peace from Peter Max. Do those three quotes kind of define the boomer generation when they were young and in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, or... Of course We Shall Overcome is another one, but just your thoughts.
PC (00:58:49):
Well, I think that they do encapsulate, or almost aphoristically express some of the main elements of the zeitgeist of the (19)60s. Yeah, sure.
SM (00:59:08):
I have got some questions here now directly related to your experiences. When you came home from Vietnam, how were you treated?
PC (00:59:20):
Well, when I first got back, of course I remember I landed at two o'clock in the morning with just a couple of other guys at Glenview Naval Air Station near Chicago. Was a rather dreary homecoming. My parents were there to pick me up. The anti-war protest movement was not really underway the summer of 1966, but there were some... No, that barking means something. Just a second.
SM (01:00:06):
Okay.
PC (01:00:08):
That means somebody is at the door.
SM (01:00:10):
Yep.
PC (01:00:10):
All right, come here, come-come. Sage. Come. Come here. Come here. Get away from the door. Come here. Just a sec.
SM (01:00:22):
Yep. That is okay. The next question I wanted to ask you is...
PC (01:00:33):
Oh wait, just one sec. I want to... And the shed's open. All right, go ahead.
SM (01:00:42):
Yep. Not when you returned, but when a lot of the vets returned back in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, what did most of the troops think about the anti-war people back home? And I am not only talking about the college students now, I am talking about the politicians, the leaders that were along with the students that were anti-war.
PC (01:01:06):
Oh, well, I think that... By the way, I just want to back up a second, when I was mentioning that there were not a lot of anti-war protests when I came back in (19)66, but I do remember one moment when I was back on leave, and I was in Chicago and my Marine Corps haircut gave me away. And I was standing on a corner with a friend of mine near downtown Chicago, and a carload of kids came by and they yelled something at me about being a pig or something like that, and threw all of these McDonald's scraps at me and a bag of hamburger and french fries scraps. So that did not make me feel too welcome. But, I think that probably most veterans felt... most soldiers, whether it was by the college kid protestors themselves or by the politicians, I think they felt kind of betrayed, if there was a general feeling.
SM (01:02:29):
Were Vietnam vets discriminated against upon their return?
PC (01:02:32):
Yeah.
SM (01:02:32):
And I am going to say this in the area of jobs, service groups and so forth. I know my very first job at Ohio University, there was a Vietnam vet who I got to know quite closely, and he had two kids, and it was 1973. And the university was way ahead of its game, and they had to put Vietnam vets in the area with minorities in terms of possibly being discriminated against. What are your thoughts on America, say, in the first five to 10 years, and how they looked at Vietnam vets upon their return?
PC (01:03:11):
Oh, I think it was, generally speaking, a very negative viewpoint. And I think that what you just said is correct, is that in effect, no matter what race you were or ethnic group, just being a Vietnam veteran almost automatically made you a member of a minority group that was looked upon with suspicion by the general society. And even contempt. And there was discrimination against... and I mean job discrimination, particularly in the academic world. So, no feeling on that.
SM (01:04:00):
Was the reason... We are not talking about the anti-war people now, we are talking about the government, people who hire people for jobs. Was it because of incidents like My Lai, the massacre, there was a perception that all Vietnam vets could commit those kinds of crimes? Post-traumatic Stress Disorder, they could crack at any time? What was the reason why they felt this way? Because I have stories of people, Vietnam vets who would go to the VFWs and they were not welcome. And they are welcomed with open arms now. But then they were not.
PC (01:04:38):
Well, I think that at the VFW where this is where some of the contempt came in, is that they were associated with a losing war. That they were losers in all senses of the term. They were losers as individuals, they were part of a losing army, and mind you, that most of the VFW guys were World War II guys and Korea guys and the World War II veterans, at least could say that they were members of the most triumphant army in American history. And I think that the society in general, there was this viewpoint of the Vietnam veteran as a so-called ticking time bomb, someone who was mentally disturbed as a result of his experiences. And then, I think at a deeper level, because a lot of horrible things did happen in Vietnam, people did not want to be reminded that these veterans were really themselves. They did not want to be reminded that the American young man was capable of doing some pretty terrible things in the conditions of battle stress.
SM (01:06:22):
But you bring out-
PC (01:06:23):
I mean, these things have always happened in battle. And I do not think they happened in Vietnam any more frequently than they happened in other conflicts. But they were more naked because you did not have the cloak or the covering of some noble cause ala World War II or freeing the slaves or whatever to obfuscate some of the terrible things that men do in war.
SM (01:06:58):
What did you take from your experience in Vietnam and bring back to America when you returned? Break it down into two parts, short term until the war ended, and then long term over the past 50 years. What did you bring back with you that has been with you since?
PC (01:07:19):
Yeah, I would say that the short term and the long term are really one and the same. And I am trying to think of how to phrase it. That given the right circumstances, anyone is capable of almost anything. And that we never know until we are faced with a critical moral choice, under great stress, which choice we will make.
SM (01:08:14):
How did you become who you are as a person, that person who became a marine, that young man who became a marine. How did you become who you are, number one? And of course, this same person goes on to write one of the greatest books ever, I think on war and on the Vietnam War in particular. Your book will be read three, four, 500 years from now. And no, it will be, because it is a classic.
PC (01:08:44):
I do not know that anybody is going to be reading 300 years from now.
SM (01:08:48):
Well, I tell you, it is a book for all time. And how did you become who you are? Because you have gone on and written some other great books and you are a great writer.
PC (01:09:02):
Well, when you are talking about is that how did I become who I was when I joined the Marines or...
SM (01:09:08):
Yes. Yeah.
PC (01:09:09):
Or since then?
SM (01:09:10):
Yeah, both. Long term, short term, who were you? How did you become who you are, that young man who went into the service and the man that you are today? So, you became an author after many years of serving.
PC (01:09:27):
Well, if we go way back to the early 1960s is... First of all, I grew up in a pretty much a blue collar family. And in a neighborhood and in a milieu that was basically kind of call it upper blue collar, if you want. My father was a machinist at the time. One of my best friend's father was a tool and die maker, that kind of thing. And almost all of our fathers and uncles and even older cousins had been veterans of World War II. And military service was just expected. It was a thing that you did. And it was also, of course, you had the force of the law at that time. Everybody was subject to the draft. So, that was part of the reason that I ended up joining the Marines was that first of all, they were supposed to be the best. And it was that if you volunteered, you somehow or another would be better than being drafted. That did not turn out to be the case. And then, well, we're going back now to the early (19)60s, the (19)63, (19)64 era. The idealism of that era, and that generation had not yet fragmented in the way that we have been speaking of for the last hour. I think I used to tell people as a joke. I said that a lot of my friends joined the Peace Corps, and I joined the War Corps, but we all felt that we were doing something positive to make the world better. And I thought that, "Well, okay, you serve your country and you take your stand against the Soviet communism and Soviet imperialism." My friends in the Peace Corps, and several of them that I graduated college with went to Africa and South America. One of them, in fact, I remember almost died of some deathly illness in Columbia, in the jungle. My roommate joined AID and ended up in Laos and living in a remote village. And so, I think that a lot of... I joined up because of a lot of patriotism and idealism. What is interesting to me is that when I look back on it, is that there was a unity in the idealism in the early (19)60s that then kind of exploded and fragmented as the decade wore on.
SM (01:13:01):
Was Kennedy's inaugural speech part of that too?
PC (01:13:05):
Yeah. Oh God, yeah.
SM (01:13:06):
Yep.
PC (01:13:08):
Oh yeah. I remember that. But still, when I see the old news clips from that, that still gives me chills.
SM (01:13:16):
How did you become that author?
PC (01:13:17):
Well, I think that all writers become writers because there are two things, is that they have been wounded in some way, and they were outsiders. And the Vietnam War did both to me. And I mean, it inflicted a kind of psychic wound. And that in turn, we were just discussing it about the society's attitudes, and I was as a Vietnam veteran, I was an outsider looking in.
SM (01:14:12):
When you wrote A Rumor of War, did you expect it to be such a big hit, number one? And what was the reaction of some of your peers, your Vietnam vets, when that book first came out? Because you revealed a lot of... some of the things, the bad side of the war, some of the things that soldiers do that are not so nice.
PC (01:14:36):
Yeah, right.
SM (01:14:38):
Yeah. So just I-
PC (01:14:40):
Go ahead.
SM (01:14:42):
Just what was the reaction of the vets that you served with and came home just like you did, proud Marines and those who followed?
PC (01:14:53):
Well, as far as... no, I did. As far as the expectations I had for the book, I can still distinctly remember when I finally finished it in... When did I finish it? 1976, I think it was. Yeah. And I remember telling my first wife, and by this time, I mean it had been accepted for publication by Henry Holt company. And I remember telling her, I says, "Well," I said, "Be nice as I think I got an advance of $6,000 to write the book." And I said, "I think it will earn the advance out and we should have enough money left over." I said, "Maybe to take a nice vacation somewhere." But those were my expectations because the subject was so anathema at that time that I just could not... I was stunned that anybody was going to publish it and then I could not imagine that anybody would read it in great numbers. As far as the reaction from federal veterans, it has been almost uniformly positive. And for just one simple [inaudible], I told the truth and the truth of the experience. And even if it revealed a lot of ugly behavior and presented myself among others and them in unheroic light, they did not mind that. They have not minded that at all. They appreciate it. Anybody is going to appreciate the truth when it is presented to them, and we know it is there.
SM (01:16:52):
What are your thoughts on Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon, and even Gerald Ford at the end when the pardon came of Nixon? Just your thoughts on those three as the war ended, because obviously LBJ ran the war. Nixon said he was going to end the war, and he technically did, even though half the people in the names on the wall died after he became president. And then President Ford came in on unusual circumstances. Just your thoughts on those three men.
PC (01:17:26):
Well, my thoughts now are on this, as I now see Lyndon Johnson as a truly tragic figure. I think he was a man who had really... He wanted to do great things for the American people. And he did. From the Voting Rights Act, Civil Rights Act, Great Society and anti-poverty programs and so forth. But he was caught by the circumstances of the Cold War that combined with his own insecurities about himself as this Texas farm boy surrounded by the brilliant minds of the Ivy League. And oh, I guess what he viewed as a hostile media and so forth, combined with his own insecurities to lead him to commit American troops to a war that he knew and that some of his top advisors like Russell Long told him was not going to be winnable. Nixon, I see more as a, I cannot help it, it is cliched now, but as a brilliant, but I think fundamentally evil man. And I think his [inaudible] was Henry Kissinger. I mean, when you talk about lies and secret wars and all of those machinations that Kissinger was pulling off, I mean, even in (19)68, when he was taking part in the peace talks in Paris. But now evidence, I think I saw it recently in the one book about Nixon, is strong evidence that he was deliberately undermining the peace talks he was taking part in so he could advance Nixon as a presidential candidate and then attain a position of power in the Nixon administration. And I think both of them were very callous about the lives that they were risking, both Vietnamese and American. And Ford... I grew up in the Middle West. Ford is a very typical old time Midwestern Republican, a fundamentally decent guy. He had these two guys, Lyndon Johnson and Nixon, both extremely, I think, very talented, but very complicated and very flawed men. And yet Ford was basically, had very few moving parts, but it does not mean he was simple minded or something, or kind of a dope. I think he was a very smart man, but his personality was not complicated. I think he had a clarity of vision that the others did not. But it was combined, as I say, with this fundamentally kind of small-town Midwestern Republicanism.
SM (01:21:45):
What were the veterans' that you knew, your peers' thoughts on Robert McNamara, William Westmoreland and Abrams?
PC (01:22:00):
I never heard any opinions about Abrams, mainly because I think that by the time he took over, I was well out of the service. Westmoreland, I think to most veterans... I mean, I kind of thought of him as a bit of a staff type general, the spit shine shoes, spiffy looking Eagle Scout general, up at the front lines, chesty puller kind of general. In fact, you just saw him as kind of a remote person. I do not know but I do not seem to recall anybody getting in any discussions with any other veterans about him. I do recall getting in discussions about McNamara, and it was just almost universal loathing among the people I have talked to.
SM (01:23:13):
What was your thought when he wrote the book In Retrospect in 1995, and then he wrote another one where he admits to the mistakes that he made? And I remember I asked, that was the very one of the questions I asked in my very first interview with Senator McCarthy, because around that time, about a year later when I interviewed him, the book had just come out. And Senator McCarthy said it was, "all trash, a little late," and he was furious. But some people say, "Well, geez, at least he finally admitted that he was wrong." And that that is something to think about too. So just what was your thoughts on the book In Retrospect and his follow up book?
PC (01:24:01):
I am ignoring McCarthy's temp on that one. I mean, I would not think of it as trash, but it was definitely way too little, too late. And my other feeling is, so what? So he admits his mistakes, but the fact of the matter is that he couched these admissions in such a way as to almost make it sound as though he were... that his great mistake was not seeing things as he should have before we committed to Vietnam. And in fact, he did. I mean, he knew, and again, there's ample evidence. I cannot cite a chapter and verse at the moment. In the Lyndon Johnson tapes and in some other... even in McNamara's own writings, that he knew ahead of time that this war was not winnable. And he never explained to me in either book, and I could barely read the second one. I was so infuriated. Never explained to me clearly, as to why he went ahead with it anyway. And became the chief architect of the war.
SM (01:25:41):
How do you feel, I got a couple names here, and how do you feel, and some of your vets feel about the following people at the time, and maybe your reflections today? Muhammad Ali.
PC (01:25:54):
Oh, well, I loved him. I first saw him fighting, that Liston fight in (19)65, and then... No, I just thought he was really cool.
SM (01:26:06):
Were vets upset with him when he went against the war, and he would not serve because he was a conscientious objector?
PC (01:26:14):
No, I believed in that then, and I still believe in it. I mean, I think he was an authentic, conscientious objector, and he paid the price. This was not a case of where he objected to the war and he got rewarded for it in some way. I mean, he paid the price for his defiance of the norms of the day. And I saw his point of view. If I had been a black guy back then, I would have certainly questioned about, "Why am I going over here to fight these guys?" As he said, "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger."
SM (01:27:03):
Right.
PC (01:27:03):
And-
PC (01:27:03):
As he said, no Viet Cong ever called me nigger.
SM (01:27:03):
Right.
PC (01:27:03):
And there was a lot of truth in that.
SM (01:27:07):
How about Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden?
PC (01:27:11):
Well, now this is going to sound contradictory, but no. My feelings toward them are negative, especially Jane Fonda. I think that Muhammad Ali, first of all, because of his particular version of the Islamic faith, and I think he actually thought things through. He thought about, "Okay, can I in conscience take part in this war and go into the army, both as a black man and as a member of the..." What was that called? It was not exactly called Islam. It was some...
SM (01:28:01):
Black Muslims?
PC (01:28:03):
Black Muslim. Yeah. It was a Black Muslim [inaudible]. And I think he thought things through and realized the price he would pay, and he paid it. And I admire him for that. I think Jane Fonda was reacting without any kind of thought to the things she did. She was reacting like a typical, I think, celebrity movie star. Sometimes a lot of them just strike me as huge vacuums that have to suck in all of this energy of attention and publicity. That is how I saw her.
SM (01:28:51):
How about Tom? When you look at Tom Hayden and Rennie Davis, though, they were called the intellectual leaders of the left, and they were big anti-war. Just your thoughts on them?
PC (01:29:04):
Well, they are kinder than they are toward Jane Fonda. But I fault them for, and I think an unjustifiably false reading of the American public. They basically thought that America was right for some kind of total revolution. All American society was going to be turned upside down violently or non-violently. And I think that that was an unjustifiable reading the mood of the American public and the kind of reading that you get from a person who is an ideologue with blinders on. Then I think it led them into a lot of actions and a lot of rhetoric that I just simply do not agree with.
SM (01:30:07):
How about the three politicians that many look upon as the big-name anti-war leaders: Eugene McCarthy, George McGovern, and Bobby Kennedy?
PC (01:30:19):
Yeah, just a sec.
SM (01:30:19):
Okay.
PC (01:30:27):
I worked for, in a very small way, but it is kind of like a precinct canvasser for Bobby Kennedy, and after he was assassinated for Gene McCarthy. So obviously I admired both of them. Stuff has come out about both of them since then that makes you see that there were some aspects to their characters, especially Bobby Kennedy, were not so admirable, and that Gene McCarthy sometimes comes off as an almost an arrogant intellectual who was, I do not know, a little too Olympian in some of his attitudes. But generally speaking, I admired, and still do, both of them. Then you mentioned somebody else.
SM (01:31:28):
George McGovern.
PC (01:31:29):
Same thing. I have worked for McGovern's campaign. I have thought of him and still do, I have met him once or twice briefly, as a principled man who was willing to take a lot of flak for the...
SM (01:31:54):
Hold on one second.
PC (01:31:55):
As I said, he took political risks for his [inaudible] and I admire him for that.
SM (01:32:14):
How about Vietnam Veterans Against the War?
PC (01:32:17):
Well, I joined them, so I cannot say anything, but that I thought that they had the right idea. I remember I was opposed to the war. I was against the war. I talked to some anti-war movement people, and I did not really like them. And I felt like the only people who had any moral authority to really protest the war were veterans. And so, when Kerry formed the VVVA, I joined them.
SM (01:32:59):
What do you think about the Black Panthers and the Weatherman's groups?
PC (01:33:04):
Oh, well, the Weatherman is just, they are contemptible. Again, you want to talk about misreading the American public, they were really guilty of that. They were basically nihilists. They were acting out some kind of psychodrama with violence, and certainly were so insular and so hermetically sealed in their own little revolutionary bubble. And again, they thought that the American public was ready for this revolution, and they were going to lead it. It was just a delusion of grandiose proportions. Same thing with the Black Panthers. Maybe some of their anger can be explained, but I do not think a lot of the things they did, the shootouts, the murders and all of that, there's no way to justify that.
SM (01:34:18):
I know the Black Panthers had the food programs that were very popular and very good, but they are set-
PC (01:34:25):
South American dictators do the same thing. It is always this bullshit that comes out when people who have violent political agendas, or Hamas over there in the Gaza Strip. They say, "Oh, well, they hand out water and food, and they have social services." So what? They are basically criminals.
SM (01:34:53):
There is seven big names that come out of that. Of course, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, and Angela Davis. I know that Dave Hilliard too. So these are all names of the Black Panthers that represented different things. They were a lot different in their own way. Do you bottle them up all together?
PC (01:35:19):
Yeah, I bottle them all up together.
SM (01:35:21):
What did you think of Students for a Democratic Society? They died when the Weatherman became a reality.
PC (01:35:33):
Well, the Weatherman, basically, Weatherman action took them over. I do not know what I thought of them. I had a brother-in-law, a high school classmate that was a member of SDS. I do remember getting into some vigorous arguments with him, obviously. For example, maybe this will tell you what I thought of them, is that he was trying to recruit me. Because they figured that a veteran would add some credibility to their ideas. And I remember him showing me a cover from The Nation magazine, and it had an oil derrick on the cover. The article that he was citing, its thesis was that the United States was fighting in Vietnam to gain control of the oil fields offshore of Vietnam. I think they are called the Spratly Islands or something like that. I remember he says, "That is what that is you were fighting for." And I remember looking at him and I said, "You know, Jack?" I said, "I wish [inaudible] for that." He says, "What do you mean?" I said, "Because then I could say, "Okay, I fought for an oil field.'" I said, "Right now I do not feel like I fought for anything." And they had this traditional, in other words, Marxist or neo-Marxist outlook about the world that I think was essentially incorrect. That we were fighting in Vietnam to gain control of these natural resources.
SM (01:37:41):
What did you think of Dr. King's speech against the Vietnam War? Because that was, even in the civil rights community, he was heavily criticized for getting outside his territory. What was your thought on him giving that speech?
PC (01:37:58):
I do not remember that I had a thought.
SM (01:38:01):
Okay. I was wondering if any of the veterans you knew reacted to that.
PC (01:38:04):
No.
SM (01:38:06):
No?
PC (01:38:06):
I did not have a lot to do with veterans after I got out of the service. There were not that many around, tell the truth, or the ones that were did not reveal that they were. But no, I do not remember that I had a thought about that one way or the other at the time. Again, I did not really know a lot of veterans, especially immediately after I got back.
SM (01:38:33):
You covered Vietnam as a reporter. I think you witnessed there. What did you think when the helicopters took off from the embassy in Saigon when the war was over? What were you thinking having served and knowing that over 58,000 Americans died and thousands were injured, both physically and psychologically? And then of course we got to also say 3 million Vietnamese died in that war. When those helicopters were taking off, what kind of feelings were going through your mind?
PC (01:39:04):
Well, I felt two things, because I wrote about them in the paper. I felt a mixture of bitterness and relief. Deep bitterness that these... I had 16 of my buddies were killed in action over there.
SM (01:39:23):
Oh geez.
PC (01:39:26):
A deep bitterness that they truly had died for no reason and a relief that it was finally over.
SM (01:39:40):
Jan Scruggs, of course, you probably read this book, To Heal a Nation. Did the Vietnam Memorial heal the nation? The Wall? I know it's done a lot with the vets and their families, but you cannot heal even every vet, because they have their issues. But his book centers on the fact that that was very important in healing in the nation. Do you think it has?
PC (01:40:06):
Well, I got to tell you in all candor, I do not believe in this healing. All it is, it's what I call the cant of this therapeutic culture. There are wounds that just remain tender forever, and they probably should. And no, I do not think that the Wall helped. It might have helped, like you say, Vietnam veterans and their families. Yes. I do not know that it helped heal them. It was a place where you could go and experience a certain kind of emotional catharsis, I guess. But it certainly, I do not think it did anything for the divisions in the nation, as going back to what we talked about quite some time ago now, is the 2004 election. Look at this. You had Vietnam veterans as members of this swift boat campaign turning on another highly decorated Vietnam veteran in the most vicious way imaginable. So, I did not see that there was any healing as far as the nation went.
SM (01:41:39):
Who do you blame for losing the war?
PC (01:41:45):
Well, nobody, because it was not winnable.
SM (01:41:51):
Okay.
PC (01:41:51):
All right. Let us put it this way. I blame the persistence and the discipline of the North Vietnamese army.
SM (01:42:00):
In the book since the Rumor of War, what have been the messages you have tried to deliver in those books?
PC (01:42:14):
Well, did you want to include A Rumor of War?
SM (01:42:20):
Yep. Include that one, but certainly your number two book and then some of your novels.
PC (01:42:27):
Well, as far as A Rumor of War went, I think I mentioned this in the afterward to one of the editions, is one of the purposes I had in writing, it was to create, by making an appeal to the physical senses, the virtual tour of duty for anybody who read the book. In other words, to put a reader into the Vietnam that the ordinary fighting man experienced, as much as was possible on the printed page. And when the reader finished the book, I wanted that reader to think or say to himself, "Now what do I think? Now what are my opinions and attitudes about Vietnam?" If I had a conscious motive it was that. In other words, as far as my other motives, they were probably unconscious. It was almost like an irresistible compulsion to set this experience down on paper. Many of the other books have been, particularly the novels, have been about the idea I expressed a little earlier here. Was that they have been stories about people in extreme circumstances or alien circumstances, where none of the usual moral guideposts of life exist. Facing moral choices and the choices they make become revelatory of what their true natures are. I have tried to get that across in a lot of novels, particularly in Acts of Faith and Horn of Africa, two books that interestingly enough take place in almost the same part of the world.
SM (01:45:20):
I would like to ask a question about the boomer veterans. 3 million served in Vietnam, and I know in some of the materials that I have read that probably about maybe 450 to 500,000 actually fought on the front lines. But in talking to vets who did not fight in the front lines, their lies were in danger the whole time they were there. So even though the 2.5 million did not walk through the jungles, there was danger there. How do they differ? Again, when we define a generation, we're talking 3 million of a 73 million population. How do they differ from the other boomers? And Vietnam vets we know were not welcomed home upon their return, but now we see an era in which Vietnam veterans are, it is really in to be a Vietnam veteran. And that there is an issue of people lying that they were veterans and making money off it by speaking, by talking about it. And I remember the ultimate was Dr. Joe Ellis, the professor at Harvard who has won of Pulitzer Prize, yet he was teaching his students that he fought in Vietnam.
PC (01:46:45):
He was 173rd Airborne.
SM (01:46:47):
And that is amazing for a guy that already had won a Pulitzer Prize. So, what is he trying to do? Just your thoughts on how the Vietnam veterans may differ from the rest of the boomers and really how important they are in the boomer generation and for America. I think they are very important. I would worked with them for many years. Just your thoughts.
PC (01:47:14):
Well, when anybody is experienced, and this would really apply to, I think you said, half a million were actually in action. You are forever set apart from your peers and contemporaries. I do not know. You know things that those who have not been there do not know, and that very knowledge cuts you apart. And I have touched on some of that knowledge, about the knowing that what you say are, what you believe in, what you will do under a certain set of circumstances is all rubbish until you are actually confronted with that moment when you have to make the choice. And to say nothing of the fact that these guys were all between 19 and 22, 23 years old, and they confronted death on a daily basis. Suddenly a lot of things that seem important to people who have not confronted death, it just pale to nothing. So, you are set apart for those and other reasons. And I think I agree with you that I think they are quite important. In our political leadership, you can take a look at how many Vietnam veterans have risen political prominence. John Kerry, Jim Webb, who is also a very fine writer as well. He is a real renaissance man, Webb. And Chuck Hagel. And there is I think 13 or 14 other members of the state Senate, of the US Senate and the US House of Representatives who were Vietnam veterans, and many of them combat veterans of Vietnam. The chairman or the CEO and founder of FedEx, I want to talk about business, is a Vietnam veteran. There's people like me who have become well known writers and artists as well. And probably if you did some research you would find Vietnam veterans in prominent or leadership positions in every single field life.
SM (01:50:13):
I agree. Kent State and Jackson State, I would like your thoughts on that. You have to link both of them, because you wrote a really great book. I read it. 13 Seconds. They have always tried to make sure when they had the remembrance events at Kent State that Jackson State is always remembered as well. Would you go so far as to say that the deaths on that campus, those four students, and of course the students at Jackson State, are also combat veterans of the Vietnam War, but on the home front?
PC (01:50:48):
No, I would not go so far as to say that. No.
SM (01:50:53):
What is your thoughts on Kent State and Jackson State? What does that mean to you?
PC (01:50:58):
Well, it was along with the assassination of President Kennedy, probably. Well, I would say the assassination of President Kennedy, the Tet Offensive and the Kent State Massacre were probably the three most prominent events of that era. Now that was the moment, Kent State, I think, when a lot of people that were writing about the boomer generation realized that when you are in the revolutionary forefront, you are not just risking a whack in the head, you are risking your very life. That this is a deadly business. And I think the American public realized. No, I should not say that, because I know the reaction was a reaction of Kent State from the Great American mainstream that was actually quite vicious. A lot of people in America realized that the atmosphere in the country had become so toxic that those National Guardsmen pulled the triggers on these college kids who were really no threat to them whatsoever. You could say that the mood or the atmosphere in the country had its fingers on those triggers as well as the actual men who pulled them.
SM (01:52:40):
Okay. I have a couple names here. We are getting close to the end of the interview. A couple names that I would like you to respond to. You have already responded to some of the presidents. These do not have to be long responses, but just gut level reactions. Your thoughts on Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin.
PC (01:53:04):
Clowns.
SM (01:53:06):
Timothy Leary.
PC (01:53:08):
Another one, but a dangerous clown.
SM (01:53:11):
How about Spiro Agnew?
PC (01:53:19):
I would just call him bombastic. I am trying to think of a word to describe him. He was bombastic and a demagogue. Bombastic demagogue.
SM (01:53:38):
John Kennedy.
PC (01:53:47):
He still moves me. I know everything, all of his flaws, and he had many. Personal flaws as well as political misconceptions. But there was still something about him that incarnated, I thought, a lot of great things in the American character, the American spirit.
SM (01:54:17):
How about Daniel Ellsberg?
PC (01:54:17):
I still miss him.
SM (01:54:18):
Right. How about Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers?
PC (01:54:25):
Well, I know Dan a little bit. I have met him. I am torn about that.
SM (01:54:45):
He is a fellow Marine, too.
PC (01:54:46):
Yeah, I know.
SM (01:54:46):
We can go on.
PC (01:54:51):
Torn about it, because you can take that idea of disclosing big secrets too far and endanger people. But I would say that given, looking at him in hindsight, I think he did the right thing.
SM (01:55:10):
How about Dr. Benjamin Spock and William Sloane Coffin?
PC (01:55:17):
No particular opinion of either one.
SM (01:55:20):
How about Daniel and Philip Berrigan? They threw blood on-
PC (01:55:34):
I cannot say that... No, I do not really have an opinion or a feeling about either one of them.
SM (01:55:42):
All right. Dwight Eisenhower?
PC (01:55:53):
A great general, a great man, but a kind of a boring president.
SM (01:56:00):
How about Barry Goldwater?
SM (01:56:01):
How about Barry Goldwater?
PC (01:56:15):
I see Goldwater as a, living right here in his state, and I still see... I am thinking out loud right now, just a lot of echoes of Goldwaterism... He was really basically, kind of almost a man of the American frontier, who had lived into an era when those frontier values were ceasing to make much sense.
SM (01:56:47):
Woodward and Bernstein.
PC (01:56:50):
Oh yeah. No, I think they both did a great thing.
SM (01:56:56):
What are your thoughts-
PC (01:56:57):
And I really admire them as journalists because both of them were not, they were not big stars in the paper, and I do not even think they quite knew what they had for quite a while. But they were persistent, and they kept after the story, and I think that they did a great service to the country and to journalism.
SM (01:57:26):
How about George Wallace?
PC (01:57:29):
A demagogue.
SM (01:57:31):
How about William Buckley?
PC (01:57:43):
I think he was a guy that was a brilliant, he definitely was a brilliant articulator of the classic conservative position, but at quite a few points in his life was a bit overly impressed with himself.
SM (01:58:06):
How about Watergate? Your thoughts on that?
PC (01:58:11):
Well, I go back to what I said. I said I think Nixon was an evil man, period. I think, when it came to politics, he was totally, totally amoral. And that Watergate scandal was a direct result of his amorality.
SM (01:58:33):
How about Woodstock and the Summer of Love?
PC (01:58:36):
Well, just a lot of frothy bullshit.
SM (01:58:41):
The year 1968.
PC (01:58:45):
One of the most dramatic years in our history, really a chronological dividing line. Think of everything that happened then, King assassinated, Kennedy assassinated, the riots after King's assassination, the Tet Offensive, the Chicago Convention riots. That was the year, going back almost to one of your first questions, that I felt that the country was going to blow itself apart.
SM (01:59:21):
And LBJ withdrew from...
PC (01:59:22):
Yeah, LBJ withdrew from running for another term.
SM (01:59:25):
The term counterculture.
PC (01:59:36):
What do I think of it?
SM (01:59:36):
Yeah, what do you think of the counterculture?
PC (01:59:37):
Oh, oh, what do I think of the term? Or what do I think of-
SM (01:59:39):
Just, yeah, the counterculture, not the term, just the...
PC (01:59:42):
Again, I think that that was, that is the least attractive facet or aspect of this boomer generation that you are writing of. It was basically a... It was self-gratification and self-indulgence masquerading as a social revolution.
SM (02:00:08):
How about the hippies and the yippies?
PC (02:00:10):
The same thing. They were the counterculture.
SM (02:00:14):
How about the Chicago 8?
PC (02:00:21):
Oh, I will go back to what I was saying about Tom Hayden and all that. They were basically ideologues, and like all ideologues, I do not think they lived in the real world.
SM (02:00:38):
And Tet.
PC (02:00:41):
Well, Tet was... That was an interesting event, probably a rather euphemistic way to put it.
SM (02:00:50):
That was (19)68 too.
PC (02:00:52):
Yeah, yeah. What happened with Tet is, it is often said nowadays, and going back 10, 15 years in some of the postmortems about Vietnam, that we had actually had the war won at that point, that we had dealt such severe blows to the Viet Cong that they had never even recovered from it. And that was true insofar as it went. But what a lot of people ignore was that this offensive took place at a time when the political and military leadership of America were telling Americans about all of the wonderful progress we were making in Vietnam. And that all of a sudden, this enemy that was supposed to have been on the ropes, comes back and stages these massive attacks throughout the country, even to the point of invading the American Embassy in Saigon. And I think that is when the American people said that somebody has not been telling us the truth. That is why that when they say that that was a psychological victory, they are correct. Where they're incorrect, is assuming that it was a psychological victory because the media made it so. What really made it so were the optimistic statements and predictions that preceded it.
SM (02:02:37):
Just a couple more. John Dean, thoughts on John Dean.
PC (02:02:48):
Well, what do I think of him? My opinion of his character, who-
SM (02:02:52):
Yeah, he is the guy that-
PC (02:02:52):
I think he was the guy that saw the ship was sinking and decided to bail.
SM (02:03:06):
Very good. Yeah. The final names here are the women leaders, the Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug. Shirley Chisholm's in there. A lot of the, Phyllis Schlafly, who was a conservative, the women leaders of that period.
PC (02:03:23):
Oh. So, what about them, I mean?
SM (02:03:24):
Yeah, just your thoughts, if you have any thoughts on them. Many of them got involved in the anti-war movement too.
PC (02:03:31):
Yeah, yeah. Well, it was because, once again, as I said, it was the war and then the anti-war movement it had spun. I still think it was the generator behind a lot of the social and cultural upheavals of that period, which would include the feminist movement.
SM (02:03:46):
The-
PC (02:04:07):
Well, I do not know. By the way, I have met Betty Friedan, and I would suspect... I mean, I never met Gloria Steinem. I never met Shirley Chisholm or Phyllis Schlafly, on the conservative side. But I have a feeling that if I did, that I would end up liking Betty Friedan the most. I liked her. I thought she was a very pragmatic kind of feminist, even though she is associated by analogy.
SM (02:04:44):
We often say that... In the boomer generation, we talk about the (19)60s and the (19)70s as boomers have aged, but we do not talk a lot about the (19)50s. And what is amazing is that the boomer generation is often defined as a rebellious one. But that is amazing and ironic when you look at the (19)50s that were kind of laid back, conservative. Nobody really spoke up that much. I reflect upon the (19)50s by watching the television shows, whether it be Mickey Mouse Club, or the Mouseketeers, Howdy Doody.
PC (02:05:19):
Yeah, seriously.
SM (02:05:20):
Howdy Doody, when they were very young, Hopalong Cassidy, all the westerns on television through the (19)50s, and certainly the movies. And I know that many of the boomers, when they were very young, the McCarthy hearings were going on. If they could have heard that voice on television, may not understand it all, telling people their communists and, of course, going through the threat of nuclear war and all the things, but parents giving as much as they can to their kids. And all of a sudden, the first-stage boomers go into seventh grade around 1960 when President Kennedy's going in, and everything kind of changes. Is there something about the 1950s that maybe really has not caught on here, or was that it really had an influence on boomers when they were young? And I want to add one other thing here. The beats were also part of the (19)50s, and of course, Kerouac and Ginsburg and those people, and their whole very being was challenging authority and the status quo. So, your thoughts on what was it in the (19)50s that may have influenced these young people subconsciously before they even started getting into junior high school?
PC (02:06:39):
Well, I think that one thing is that... I think we are talking about a number of levels of human psychology, and particularly mass psychology. One, that I would just say, was boredom. No. Sometimes boredom is a great motivator. I think that a lot of these people that grew up in the (19)50s were just kind of bored. They wanted action. They wanted excitement. They wanted things to happen. So I think that was a factor. I think the other one was privilege. I had mentioned this earlier. This was the first generation in America, its Black component excepted, that had never really known hardship and hard times, so it was comfortable. It had the luxury to think about things other than getting a job, surviving, rising just a little bit in society, hopefully from the lower class over to the middle class, and that kind of thing. And then another would be that there is a certain hypocrisy that they saw in their parents' generation that was, I think, undeniably there, particularly the racism that existed. At that time in the (19)50s, it was really quite virile. I mean, I remember it really, very clearly. One thing I remember is 1962, I was driving with two of my college buddies down to the big migration in Fort Lauderdale. We got lost. There were no interstate highways to follow at that time, and there's all these old US highways and state highways and stuff. Anyway, we got lost in the middle of Georgia somewhere at night, and we stopped at a gas station to get gas and ask directions. And I remember that I was really thirsty, and I went around to the side of the building, and I was just drinking at a water fountain. And while I was bent over the water fountain, I felt this tap on my shoulder, and it was the gas station attendant, who was a pretty beefy guy, big guy, and he had a type of [inaudible]. I think it was a blunt... It was probably an open-ended wrench, but it might have been a ratchet, I do not remember. Anyway, a large metal tool, and tapping me on the shoulder. And he says, "You do not look like no nigger to me, boy." And he pointed up to the sign, says, "Colored only," or is it blue? This is scary stuff. So, I think that there was a perception of a certain hypocrisy. And I think, too, is that when they talk about... Okay, we have the boomer generation and the greatest generation, which were the parents of the boomer generation, is that... Well, the greatest generation, I think too, it was probably a bit over materialistic, even though its materialism, in a lot of ways, contributed to the comfort and the security with which the boomers were brought up in. But I think that they may have resented that. They may have seen that their parents were too concerned with getting ahead, making a living, the old 1950s organization-man idea, and rebelled against that as well.
SM (02:11:16):
When the best history books are written, they are usually about 50 years after an event. Some of the best World War II books have been written in the last 5 to 10 years, and that is 50 years after World War II ended in (19)45. When the best history books are written about the boomer generation, 50 years, or even after boomers have passed, what do you think they will be saying about the generation? And again, the people that will be writing these books will be the generation Xers, of which is the generation that followed, or even most likely, millennials and future generations. So, they would not have even been alive during the time the boomers were alive.
PC (02:12:04):
Well, I could not project that far ahead. I would suspect that this, whatever you want to call them, generation X or generation Y, anyway, people might... I have two sons. They are 38 and 36, so I guess they are generation X. I do not know.
SM (02:12:24):
Yep, they are generation X.
PC (02:12:36):
And my impression is that if any of them ever write the history of the boomers, it probably will not be too positive a portrait. I think they may see the boomers as just a bit too self-involved, too self-centered, kind of like that newspaper reporter that told me like, "What the hell is going on here? People my age are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, and you guys keep arguing about this goddamn Vietnam War that took place 35 years ago." They may not be as impressed with the boomers as the boomers quite often are of themselves.
SM (02:13:17):
Mr. Caputo-
PC (02:13:18):
But I do not know. I cannot think about it. But then going further into the future than that is impossible for me.
SM (02:13:25):
Yeah. One of the interesting things is for some reason, millennials, which is people born after, probably in the mid-1980s in fact, they seem to get along fine with the boomer generation. There is really strong links because their parents are boomers, and now 85 percent of all the parents of college students are generation Xers. So, it is interesting, the links they have got. In the mid-(19)90s we did programs on the generation X and boomers, and boy, there was friction between these two generations. There is no question. And the friction was based on this, and it was very clear cut that there were two things that generation Xers thought about boomers. Number one is, "I am tired of hearing about what it was like when you were young. I am sick of it. You're too nostalgic." And the other reaction was, "Geez, I wish I lived during that era because there is no issues today for me like there was for you." So those are kind of some interesting comments. And we did two programs where we had panels on that. Those came out clear. The last question I have here is what do you hope your lasting legacy is going to be?
PC (02:14:50):
Oh, I think that if somebody who wrote some pretty good hardcover books that they will, it is to be hoped, be read a hundred years from now.
SM (02:15:07):
Well, I can guarantee you, Rumor of War will be read 300 years from now. No, I am a history major, political science major as an undergrad, and I have about 20, 25 books that I have read in my life, and I am a reader. Your book is there. Your book is just-
PC (02:15:27):
Oh. Well, I mean, I hope so. I think of, I am trying to remember it. Let me see if I can quote it exactly, probably will not be able to, but it's from Marcus Aurelius's Meditations. And it's a whole passage he has on the brevity of life. And he says something like, he says, "Brief, too, is the longest posthumous fame, and even this is carried on by poor mortals, who must themselves die and be forgotten."
SM (02:16:09):
Wow.
PC (02:16:12):
It is always good to... Yeah. I hope that my book will be read 100 or 300 years from now. A thousand years from now, it may not be.
SM (02:16:28):
Well, I hope it is still, will always being book form. I am worried about people reading on computers. But anyways, I do recommend that you do read Fortunate Son while you are out in Arizona. Pick it up in the library or buy it. I know they have copies of in the bookstore. I think Lewis Puller's book is excellent. He was one of the inspirations for me getting started in my project here because we took students down to Washington to meet him at the Wall two days before the Women's Memorial was dedicated. He spent over two and a half hours with seven of our students at a bench across the way there. And then in the spring, of course, we all know he committed suicide. It was very sad. And I have my own story about it. It is going to be in the opening of this book, things I am going to say about that, but I encourage you to read it. It is a great book. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you expected me to ask?
PC (02:17:32):
Gosh, no.
SM (02:17:33):
No. I guess I have covered it all then. I will turn my tape player off. Thank you very much. One thing I want to mention is that I went through 50 interviews before I realized I had to get waivers for all of my speakers. They all said, "You can use my tape," and once they get the transcript and edit it and stuff. And so, what I am doing now, I am having to send out waivers to the first 50 people I interviewed, and 7 of them had died, so I got to go to the family estates. So, I just wanted to let you know, sometime in the next couple of weeks I will be sending, through the email, a copy of the waiver, then you can make a copy of it, print it, and then send it back to me on the computer.
PC (02:18:17):
Okay. And I will try not to die between then.
SM (02:18:19):
Oh yeah, do not die. But Senator Gaylord Nelson was one of my earlier interviews.
PC (02:18:24):
Confuse your...
SM (02:18:25):
Yeah. Well, I just found out one of my interviews... just died recently, and it was Forrest Church from All Souls... the son of Frank Church. And then Jack Smith, I interviewed, and he passed away, and of course, Senator McCarthy, and so there's been a few. But I want to thank you very much for taking this lengthy time with me. It's an honor to talk to you. And one thing I do miss, and that is taking pictures of you because the way this book is going to be broke down, it's going to be broken down into seven different sections, and you will be in the veterans’ section plus the authors section. And I usually take pictures of all the individuals, 90 percent of the people I have been in person. So somehow, I need to get some updated pictures of you to put at the top, but I will be emailing you on that.
PC (02:19:18):
Okay. Yeah, I have got a friend of mine here who is a pretty good photographer. He could just get a shot at me.
SM (02:19:23):
Yeah. I do not know if you are ever in the Philadelphia area in the spring, and I do not know if you are [inaudible] or speak in that area. I got two people that I have already interviewed but are going to be in Philadelphia, Washington, or New York in the spring. And I am just going to take their pictures, anyway.
PC (02:19:37):
No, I do not plan to be.
SM (02:19:40):
Right. All right. Well, you have a great day. Thank you.
PC (02:19:44):
Okay. All right. It was good talking to you. I guess we certainly covered a lot of ground here.
SM (02:19:52):
And I will keep you updated on how the project is going. I got a lot of transcribing to do, and once I get it transcribed, you get a copy of that as well. And I will get the waiver to you first, and we will go from there.
PC (02:20:07):
All right, okay.
SM (02:20:08):
Well, thank you very much and happy holidays.
PC (02:20:11):
All right. Happy holidays to you, and you are welcome.
SM (02:20:13):
Yep. And talk to you...
(End of Interview)
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Philip Caputo
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Caputo, Philip ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Journalists; Authors; Marines; Caputo, Philip--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for <em>Horn of Africa</em>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.31a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.31b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-14
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
140:17
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Universal Viewer / Rosetta
Rosetta audio media
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 audio disc
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
27:56
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153835">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE153835</a>
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Faculty fireworks, December 12, 2009
Recital Tape 2009-12-12
Description
An account of the resource
Held at 8:00 p.m., December 12, 2009, Osterhout Concert Theater.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Binghamton University Symphony Orchestra
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound