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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-02-06
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
V. P. (Vincent P.) Franklin, 1947-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the Journal of African American History. He is the author of The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950, Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance, Living Our Stories, Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition, and Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the <em>Journal of African American History</em>. He is the author of <em>The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950</em>, <em>Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance</em>, <em>Living Our Stories</em>, <em>Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition</em>, and <em>Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography</em>. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Penn State University; Harvard; The Young Americans for Freedom; African American student; Black Power; Jackson State; Anti-War Movement; Black Panthers; John Carlos; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Nation of Islam; Richard Nixon; Black capitalism; Ronald Reagan; George H.W. Bush; Vietnam drafts."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Penn State University; Harvard; The Young Americans for Freedom; African American student; Black Power; Jackson State; Anti-War Movement; Black Panthers; John Carlos; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Nation of Islam; Richard Nixon; Black capitalism; Ronald Reagan; George H.W. Bush; Vietnam drafts.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
151:14
Subject LCSH
College teachers; University of California, Riverside; Editors; Authors; Franklin, V. P. (Vincent P.), 1947--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Title
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Interview with V.P. Franklin
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Franklin, V. P. (Vincent P.), 1947- ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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College teachers; University of California, Riverside; Editors; Authors; Franklin, V. P. (Vincent P.), 1947--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
V.P. Franklin is a distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the <em>Journal of African American History</em>. He is the author of <em>The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950</em>.
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the Journal of African American History. He is the author of The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950, Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance, Living Our Stories, Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition, and Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the <em>Journal of African American History</em>. He is the author of <em>The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950</em>, <em>Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance</em>, <em>Living Our Stories</em>, <em>Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition</em>, and <em>Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography</em>. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago.</span>
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-02-06
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.53a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.53b
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2017-03-14
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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151:14
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-02-09
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dr. David Kaiser
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Individualism; Drug culture; Free Speech Movement; Identity Politics; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Feminist Movement; AIDS; Chicano Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Anti-war Movement; Vietnam War; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; College student protests; Healing; Vietnam Memorial;Woodstock; Kent State; Summer of Love; Counterculture; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Black Panthers; Black Power."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305}}">Baby boom generation; Individualism; Drug culture; Free Speech Movement; Identity Politics; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Feminist Movement; AIDS; Chicano Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Anti-war Movement; Vietnam War; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; College student protests; Healing; Vietnam Memorial;Woodstock; Kent State; Summer of Love; Counterculture; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Black Panthers; Black Power.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
106:26
Subject LCSH
College teachers; Physics; Massachusetts Institute of Technology; Kaiser, David--Interviews
Biographical Text
Dr. David Kaiser is a historian and educator. He also served in the Army Reserve from 1970 to 1976. Dr. Kaiser was a Professor in the Strategy and Policy Department of the United States Naval War College from 1990 until 2012 and has taught at Carnegie Mellon, Williams College, and Harvard University. He is the author of several books and articles. Dr. Kaiser received his Bachelor’s degree and his Ph.D. in History from Harvard University.
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: David Kaiser
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 9 February 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:03):
David Kaiser. February 9th, 2010. Plug it in-
DK (00:00:10):
By the way-
SM (00:00:11):
I am going to start out with some of the general questions, and then we will get into some of the specifics here. First off, I want to say, I think your book, American Tragedy is great.
DK (00:00:23):
Thanks.
SM (00:00:24):
Yeah. The way you talk about the Eisenhower administration, it is very, very good. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin, and what was the watershed moment when it began, and what was the watershed moment when it ended, in your opinion?
DK (00:00:44):
Well, I have come to think of this in the terms that were defined by my dear late friend, Bill Strauss and Neil Howe. Rather than talk about the (19)60s, they used the term awakening, which they see as a recurring phenomenon in American history. I would say that the awakening began in 1964 or 1965, and that it continued for approximately 20 years. Although by the end of that time, it was not primarily visible in politics, and there had been a swing to the right in politics. But with respect to social changes and whatnot in American life, it was certainly continuing into the early 1980s. It is interesting, and it was important of things to come really, that it is fair to say that the first baby boomer, even using the relatively narrow demographic definition, who held a major policy position, was I think David Stockman as Budget Director under Reagan.
SM (00:02:01):
Oh, yes.
DK (00:02:01):
That was an interesting portent as it turned out, of the political influence that adult boomers were actually going to have.
SM (00:02:12):
Could you explain that a little bit more? Because I remember David Stockman, I think he was... If I remember right, he resigned or was-
DK (00:02:20):
No.
SM (00:02:21):
Forced out?
DK (00:02:22):
Kicked out the first term.
SM (00:02:23):
Yeah.
DK (00:02:23):
He got into trouble for making some intemperate statement, but I think he finished out the first term. Then, again, in a typical boomer move, he wrote a very frank memoir explaining that he never believed most of the things he was saying, and that what the administration had been trying to do could not possibly work. Loyalty is not one of the big virtues of our generation.
SM (00:02:48):
Right.
DK (00:02:49):
Then he got onto Wall Street, and I believe he has been in some legal trouble, although I do not remember exactly how that came out, since then. But what I mean to say is, that perhaps because we are so self-centered in politics, we turned out to have a much more conservative impact than one would have cast way back in the (19)60s.
SM (00:03:15):
You make reference there to a quality that you think was part of the boomer generation. I know it is very difficult to generalize for 70 plus million people. I have heard that from many of my interviewees and a lot of them based their experiences on the people that they knew, grew up with, have worked with, have become friends with and so forth, so then they are able to talk about boomers. Is there some general positive qualities or negative qualities that you think are really linked to this group?
DK (00:03:48):
Oh, I definitely think so. And remember, again, thanks to Strauss and Howe, I have been thinking about these questions very intensively and discussing them with well-informed people for about 15 years now. I think that the positive contribution came from taking individual feelings seriously, from taking the idea of individualism seriously, and of addressing a lot of personal emotional issues that previous generations, particularly the GI's, our parents, for the most part, at least among the older boomers, had swept under the rug. I think that probably made boomers much better parents than their parents had been, for the most part. On the other hand, I think a major characteristic is a rather terrifying faith in our own opinion, which again, the older generation played into by making the catastrophic mistake in Vietnam, and a belief that whatever we want must be best, not only for us, but for everyone else, and that there really cannot be any serious objections to establishing whatever we regard as good, and right, and just. Now, you see the thing that Strauss and Howe really taught me, for which I am grateful, is to see these qualities on both sides of the political fence. In the same way that some of my contemporaries at Harvard thought it would be great to transform Harvard University, if not to bring it to a halt in 1969, and to eliminate ROTC, and form Black Studies Department, and do all sorts of things right away, no matter what the cost, the same kind of certainty informed our contemporary George W. Bush when it became obvious to him that overthrowing Saddam Hussein and setting up democracy in Iraq was just a thing to do, and that would put the whole world on a great new track.
SM (00:06:29):
That is interesting you say that about Bush, because when the two boomer presidents, a couple of people have commented, and they do not go into any great detail, but they say, "Look at our two new boomer presidents, Clinton and Bush. There you have all the qualities of the boomers." And then I got to say, "What do you mean by that?"
DK (00:06:46):
Well, I do not entirely agree about Clinton. And in fact, Clinton did not have a typical boomer childhood at all. He had a very difficult childhood. Clinton, while he certainly is narcissistic and he could be irresponsible in his personal life, he actually was a natural politician and a conciliator who did not try to insist on putting through his own views. I think Hillary is much more of a traditional boomer, in that respect. I would make a little bit of an exception for him in that regard, and that is probably what made him a much more successful president, actually.
SM (00:07:35):
Yeah. See, one of the things that many of the boomers felt when they were young, is they were the most unique generation in American history up to that point.
DK (00:07:42):
Absolutely.
SM (00:07:44):
I can remember being on college campuses, feeling that we can be the change agents for the betterment of society, that we have the power within us to end racism, and sexism, and bring peace to the world, and a utopian mentality.
DK (00:08:01):
Oh yeah. Wait, how old are you exactly?
SM (00:08:03):
Oh, I am the same age as you are.
DK (00:08:03):
Oh, fine. Okay. Yeah.
SM (00:08:04):
I graduated from Binghamton University in 1970.
DK (00:08:07):
SUNY Binghamton?
SM (00:08:08):
Yes.
DK (00:08:10):
Did you know Camille Paglia?
SM (00:08:11):
Yes. Oh, I knew of her. Yes. I saw her in classes, but I did not know her personally. Of course, I tried to approach her once with no luck, when I tried to take students to meet her. She was there, and I think she was a graduation speaker in 1969, a year before I graduated.
DK (00:08:34):
I think she graduated in (19)68, actually.
SM (00:08:37):
Was it (19)68?
DK (00:08:38):
The three of us are all the same age, but I think you were a year late, apparently, and she was a year early.
SM (00:08:43):
Yeah.
DK (00:08:44):
Yeah, I think that is right.
SM (00:08:45):
Yeah, and I stayed an extra semester too because I double majored-
DK (00:08:49):
I see. Anyway, okay. Do you, by any chance, remember a guy named Barney [inaudible]?
SM (00:08:53):
No, I do not.
DK (00:08:54):
All right. He was there too, and he went into the Navy, and he taught with me here in the (19)90s for a while.
SM (00:09:00):
I know the president was one of the good presidents when I was here, Dr. Bruce Dearing.
DK (00:09:05):
Yeah. Okay.
SM (00:09:06):
He went onto Upstate Medical Center, but I guess he retired because the students got to him after a while.
DK (00:09:11):
Sure. All right, well, let us get back to our-
SM (00:09:14):
Yeah, but anyways, the uniqueness, could you comment on that feeling? Because even if you talked to some boomers who were 62 and 63, some of them still feel that way.
DK (00:09:25):
Well, again, Strauss and Howe see a repeating cycle. What that means is, that there have been generations like boomers, but we did not know them or at best, we met a few of them when they were very, very old, as I did. The characteristic of these generations, which they call profit generations, that they are born in the wake of great national crises. There was a similar generation born after the foundation of the Constitution. And actually, that was a very long generation that went from sometime in the 1790s till about 1820. Those were the men and women who gave us the Civil War. There was a similar generation, which Strauss and Howe called the missionaries, born from the early 1860s until I would say about 1884. They also had a very strong sense of moral purpose, very intense sense of themselves. I am actually studying them now, in connection with a book about American entry into the Second World War.
SM (00:10:35):
Oh.
DK (00:10:36):
I have to give them credit for a lot more self-discipline and realism than boomers have shown, which is an interesting issue. Those are the parallel generation, but boomers are very different from any of the other living generations, yes. And furthermore, not only do they pride themselves on being different from other generations, but they pride themselves, and here I would certainly have to include myself, on being individually unique and on being different from each other.
SM (00:11:18):
Yeah. One of the things about the boomers that I have been... Everything seems to be placed in context. In other words, did the event shape the boomers or did the boomers shape the events? Because when you talk about the baby boom, you are talking about the largest... I think there are more millennials now, though. Boomers can no longer say... There are more millennials now than there were ever were boomers.
DK (00:11:45):
That is probably true. Well, again, I think it is a mix. I am convinced now, and again, this is thanks to Strauss and Howe, that there would have been a rebellion against the values of our childhood, no matter what. On the other hand, there is no question in my mind that the Vietnam War made that rebellion much more intent and had tremendous long-term consequences in a lot of ways because it convinced so many boomers, including ones who became very important in one way or another, that we could safely disregard everything our parents had ever said, and toss aside so many aspects of the world they had created without any caution, or regret, or anything.
SM (00:12:54):
How important were the Beats in this kind of an attitude? This was a group from the silent generation, the Ginsburg's, the Kerouac, the Anne Waldman Serengeti, that particular group of writers that seem to have they were small in number, but their influence seemed to be large in many ways in the (19)50s because they were the epitome of not showing a whole lot of respect for the status quo and-
DK (00:13:24):
Yeah. Well, again my wife-
SM (00:13:26):
They were pre-boomers.
DK (00:13:27):
Well, yeah. Well, they were skeptics, certainly. I do not know if I would call them pre-boomers or not. My wife would have a lot to say about that. She is actually a year older than we are, and she was aware of them from a very early age. They certainly were providing an alternative voice. Also, there was Morton Sahl, the comedian.
SM (00:13:55):
Oh, yes.
DK (00:13:56):
There were the early folk singers. That was a kind of wedge in the door. For instance, I can remember in high school, my friends and I getting a little kick out of the song that I think was actually written by Pete Seeger, Little Boxes on the hillside, and things like that. They did provide an alternative view, but I do not think their influence was extremely widespread.
SM (00:14:33):
When you look at the boomer generation, I have had to clarify to many of the people I have interviewed, they said, "Are you talking about the 70 million, Steve, or are you talking about the 15 percent who were the activists?" Because they said, "I can talk about the activist. They can talk about all those people involved in all those movements, anti-war."
DK (00:14:56):
I do not think, okay, well, first of all, there is this definitional issue. The demographic definition I know includes people born from what, (19)46 through (19)64?
SM (00:15:11):
Yes.
DK (00:15:12):
Okay. The Strauss and Howe definition is different. They started around (19)43, which I think is the shaky boundary and run it through 1960. In terms of experience, I think that is a better definition. Essentially what that means, and this is what I say, they never said it this way, boomers are people who do not remember FDR, but who do remember Kennedy. That is the way I would define it. No, the comments I am making certainly do not refer simply to the activists.
SM (00:15:55):
Okay.
DK (00:15:57):
Although the activists demonstrated a lot of key generational characteristics. Now, what you will find and remember, I have a very different kind of student body, and I teach a generations course, and my students who are no longer boomers, most of them are Gen X now, but they write autobiographical papers and I hear about their parents. You can find people born even as late as we were, who either did not go to college or who somehow got on track in life very early so that they were already launched when the awakening began around 1965. Many of them are different, but that would be... Those people could not be significantly younger than we are. I think that everybody, by the (19)70s, certainly, again, there are regional differences too, but by the (19)70s, everybody was growing up in a very different world than the world people had grown up in the early (19)60s.
SM (00:17:09):
You keep saying the awakening around (19)65. Are you making reference... The Vietnam War, of course, it was around (19)65 that started to get bigger and bigger, and then by (19)67, we know what was happening there.
DK (00:17:22):
The Vietnam War gave the awakening a political trust. I am talking about different music, I am talking about different ways to dress, different ways to wear your hair, different sexual morays, drug use, which arrived at Harvard, interestingly enough, in a big way in the fall of 1966, brought in by the incoming freshman class, many of whom had done drugs in their last year in high school, particularly [inaudible].
SM (00:18:01):
That is my class.
DK (00:18:04):
Yes, right. And things like that. All that was getting going. There is a wonderful piece. I do not think I referred to it in American tragedy, although I found it doing American Tragedy. It is a piece from the New York Times that appeared sometime in the first six months of 1965, and it is called Narcotics the Growing Problem Among Affluent Youth. It is quite an extraordinary read, in retrospect, and one of the more prophetic pieces that Deborah appeared.
SM (00:18:39):
I know there is brand new book out right now on Timothy Leary and the drug culture up at Harvard.
DK (00:18:45):
Oh, okay.
SM (00:18:46):
Yeah, and that just came out.
DK (00:18:47):
Right.
SM (00:18:48):
One of the things I want to talk about here is Newt Gingrich, when he came into power, who is a boomer, by the way-
DK (00:18:59):
Yes, he certainly is.
SM (00:19:00):
When he came into power in 1994, I read some of his commentaries about attacking that generation of the (19)60s generation and that era. George Will oftentimes has, when he gets an opportunity, either in his books or his articles, will take shots at the (19)60s generation.
DK (00:19:22):
Yeah.
SM (00:19:22):
I think he is a pre-boomer, I do not think-
DK (00:19:24):
Oh, he is a silent. Yes, he definitely is.
SM (00:19:27):
Yeah. They are just examples. And then Pat Buchanan in a recent video on the Weatherman, really blasts the (19)60s generation, regarding 1968, and when he was working with President Nixon. Basically, all three of them claiming that all the problems we have in American society today can go right back to that period of time-
DK (00:19:51):
Well, actually that is a fantasy, which actually I used to share, from a different political perspective. Without Vietnam say, we might have stayed in the early (19)60s indefinitely. I now think that is a fantasy. But what I want to stress, is that Gingrich is being a complete hypocrite, in my opinion, just the way George W. Bush was, when he would criticize the (19)60s and say, "The problem is that for too long we have been saying if it feels good, do it." Well, I blogged a good deal about this, and I can tell you where to find it. It was one of the first things I did back in 2004. George Bush's whole presidency is a testimony to, if it feels good, do it. I want to get rid of Saddam, so I will do it. Do not tell me this is too hard. Do not tell me we do not have any allies. I want to cut taxes, so I am going to do it. Do not tell me about the deficit. He is as much a part of that as anybody. You see this now again, in the total irresponsibility of the Republican leadership in Congress, which is composed entirely of boomers, I think now. Whereas interestingly enough, the Democratic leadership is still composed mainly in silent, which is part of the reason they are such a pushovers compared to the Republicans.
SM (00:21:26):
You just made a comment there. It is almost as if George Bush sounds like Woodrow Wilson, if you go back to-
DK (00:21:34):
No. That would be a long discussion and a complicated one. I think that is been unfair to Woodrow Wilson. It is true that they were similar. They were more similar from a personality point of view. Wilson was very intolerant of dissent, and felt it was everybody's duty to agree with him. He was a genuinely very subtle thinker, in a way that Bush certainly never would be.
SM (00:22:08):
Yeah. I know he had problems with the leadership of the Republican party when... He did not consult with anybody. He was a hero in Europe and then he did not consult with anybody back in the Congress.
DK (00:22:21):
No. And he refused to come.
SM (00:22:23):
Yeah. That leads me right into this question here, it is- often times we cannot generalize about an entire generation, but can you see the results this time passes on the influence that one generation can have in America?
DK (00:22:36):
Oh, yeah.
SM (00:22:36):
Does the 70 plus million deserve praise or condemnation for any of the major flaws we see in our society today? Have the boomer leaders of Congress, the office of the president, the governors, the state assemblies, and local governments been good or bad overall? Because they have been running things. Generation X's are now in there too. How would you grade them as a whole?
DK (00:23:00):
I think that they are in politics. They do not even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the GI's, as our parents' generation. I think that the silent generation was pretty good in politics, never did get anybody into the White House. They have now pretty much been chucked aside. I think the boomers have had a terrible influence in the economy, although there the silent generation shares the blame, but I would give a lot of it to the boomers, and we are going to be living with that for a long time now. Again, the GI's having lived through the Depression, understood that you needed restraints on the financial community, on industry, and various regulation to avert another catastrophe. Naturally, we assumed that none of that applied to us. A lot of those regulations have been either repealed or simply disregarded, and here we find ourselves once again in a situation parallel to the (19)30s. The other area, and this is my personal view, but it has been acquired at great cost, may I say, I think in academia boomers have been a complete disaster and have done damage that I do not see how it will ever be repaired.
SM (00:24:44):
Can you talk about that?
DK (00:24:47):
Sure.
SM (00:24:47):
A lot of the professors... I have worked at quite a few universities and I have heard for years about the attacks on today's faculty members, particularly in the humanities and social scientists as political correctness and all the attacks by the conservatives toward the universities today, that the people that run the universities, and they were making reference to administrators too, administrators and faculty are basically examples of the (19)60s generation all over again.
DK (00:25:19):
Well, I think there is some truth to that, but I think again, the biggest single problem... Well, there are two problems, which you see in particular in my own discipline of history. The first is a rejection of the idea of objective truth, and an endorsement of the idea that reality is different for everyone, and that they are entitled to express their own reality, which makes evidence much less important than running history. And secondly, the idea that it is the job of the historian to study the oppressed and the people who have not had any voice in the past, to the almost complete exclusion of studying people in power. The prevalence of that idea, is the reason that I, who has written not only American Tragedy, but five other books, three of which are on the same scale as American Tragedy, more or less, has to teach at the Naval War College because there is literally no room in any history department in the country anymore for somebody like me. This is still happening. We just hired a young guy from a very distinguished university, just finished his PhD, who has written the thesis on the... Well, I do not want to get too specific here because this may eventually be published-
DK (00:27:03):
Well, I do not want to get too specific here because this may eventually be published. He has written a thesis on a major diplomatic issue in the Cold War, and I heard from a third party that that cost him a chance at a job at a university because the bulk of the people in the department said, "This work is simply too traditional". Yes. So that has been very serious. In economics, the boom generation of economists, with very few exceptions, have swallowed the idea of the rational market, and that which has gotten us into the mess that we are in today. In political science, most of the quote, "cutting edge work", is now based on what is called rational choice theory, which does not really describe human beings at all. And in literature, postmodernism has had a terrible effect. And again, if you could get her to talk to you, Camille [inaudible] would be the best person to talk to about that, but I know she has become almost impossible to approach. And I have tried to approach her several times with no luck, and I have given up.
SM (00:28:22):
I approached her once.
DK (00:28:23):
But again, that is somebody else who is probably the outstanding literature scholar of our generation and who works in an art school.
SM (00:28:33):
It is interesting because the person I just interviewed this past weekend, Dr. Franklin?
DK (00:28:38):
Yes.
SM (00:28:39):
Said that because in an article that he wrote criticizing something that somebody had written, he had a hard time finding a job. And he had written three books, very well-established books.
DK (00:28:54):
Well, that is possible, although the job market has been so tight for the whole of my career.
SM (00:29:00):
Well, that was back-
DK (00:29:01):
There could be so many reasons why people have had trouble finding a job.
SM (00:29:04):
Well, that was 20 years ago though.
DK (00:29:06):
Okay. But I mean, the other thing that... You see, another problem, which we did not invent, to be fair, in modern academia's specialization, and that also leaves no room at all for somebody like me who has never written the same book twice or written on the same subject twice. And I know that cost me many opportunities.
SM (00:29:31):
One of the events that took place in the (19)60s, historic event, was the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964 and (19)65.
DK (00:29:40):
Sure.
SM (00:29:42):
And Ronald Reagan came into power based on two things. Number one, that he was going to stop those students who were protesting on college campuses that took their lead from the free speech movement, and secondly, he was going to end the welfare state. I suppose those are two of the big issues. And so he took those issues on as, and of course they support him in California and he won election. But I want to, the question I am basically asking here, is there a fear of activism on university campuses today? Did the universities learn anything from the Boomer protests on their campuses in the (19)60s and (19)70s? I asked that question. And second part of the question is, we did a couple panels at our university when I first got there in the late (19)80s, early (19)90s, where I had boomers in Generation Xers on stage, and they did not like each other. It was very obvious they did not. And it was the current students who were Generation Xers, and some of the faculty who were boomers, and some people from off campus who were boomers. And I can remember the split. There was either two responses between the Generation Xer and the boomers. One, "I am sick and tired of hearing about your nostalgia and the way it was. Shut up. I am tired of it. I do not care about it". And the other one was, "I wish I lived when you lived because you had issues and we do not have them today". So then, there was nothing in between. But, so I am really asking about activism here. Art in today's universities are run by boomers and [inaudible].
DK (00:31:29):
Well, no. Well, if you go back to Berkeley, and I assume you are familiar with that documentary, Berkeley in the (19)60s.
SM (00:31:36):
Yes, I am.
DK (00:31:37):
Good. Yes. Basically, and I remember this very well, even though I started college year after that, those kids were reacting to the idea that the whole purpose of the educational system, which was run by GI's then, was to turn them out as copies of their parents. So they were dressing like their parents, they were acting like their parents, and so on. Now, Vietnam, again, gave the protests a completely different character and a political character. And nothing like that has happened since. Now, as soon as you get to Gen X, you are dealing with kids, many of whom are short on cash, are borrowing money to go through school, and who are focused on their future. And that was one of the great things about being a relatively young boomer, is that you just assumed that was not going to be a problem. Now today, and I have not followed it that closely, but as you know, there are significant protests going on in the UC campuses again, you have a very different story because you have got millennials who have been told all their lives, here is what you have to do, do it, and you will be rewarded. And they have responded to that very enthusiastically. And I got, you see, I did get a glimpse of this firsthand because I was a visiting professor at Williams College three years ago. That was just for one year though. And now suddenly, they are in a situation where it is not clear the rewards are going to be there, and that could have significant repercussions. But you see, our protests were based on moral criticism, and we had the luxury of focusing on moral criticism because of the extremely secure environment in which we had grown up. And that is the paradox, as I say, of every prophet generation, from the transcendentals after the Constitution, through the missionaries, and right up to us.
SM (00:34:06):
Well, that free speech movement all started actually by chance, because of the fact that they told a group of young students that they could not hand out literature in...
DK (00:34:17):
Right.
SM (00:34:18):
[inaudible] Plaza. And even the students that did not like that group that was handing out literature, when they saw that their fellow students are being attacked, they came together.
DK (00:34:28):
That is right.
SM (00:34:29):
And it was, " You cannot tell us what to do". And of course, Clark Kerr made that mistake, and then he gets fired by President Reagan, or not President Reagan, governor Reagan.
DK (00:34:38):
Governor Reagan. Right.
SM (00:34:39):
Because he was not tough enough on the students. I have a question here, looking at the presidents that were during the lives of Boomers, and that includes Harry Truman too, even though they cannot hardly remember him. But I remember him as a little boy.
DK (00:34:58):
I remember the (19)62 election.
SM (00:35:00):
Yes.
DK (00:35:01):
I do not have any specific memories of Truman as president. I am sure I knew he was president.
SM (00:35:06):
I just knew as was a little boy, he did not like McCarthy. Which of the presidents do you feel had the greatest impact on the generation? And when I look at it, I am talking about Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and now Obama. Because they have been all the presidents of during the time that-
DK (00:35:29):
Well, that is a big question.
SM (00:35:30):
That is a big question. I know Kennedy had an influence.
DK (00:35:33):
I would say Kennedy had the biggest emotional impact, even now. I think Johnson clearly had a huge impact because of the decision to fight in Vietnam.
SM (00:35:47):
Right.
DK (00:35:49):
Now, you were touching on something important when you talked about Reagan, mainly that the awakening in the anti-Vietnam War protest was a major factor in destroying the existing Democratic majority and leading to Republican domination of the White House for a long time. Okay, I think Reagan did have a very big impact, coming along when he did, in making conservatism and consumerism respectable among boomers, just as they were in their thirties and having kids and things like that. And that was very important. And, you know, based on the data I saw, boomers split pretty evenly, even in the last election. Just as they split evenly in 1972, even. So they have never been, as a group, a strikingly liberal group. It was Gen Xers and millennials who put Obama in the White House. Now, Clinton, I do not know, I guess I will leave it there with Kennedy, and Johnson, and Reagan, as having the probably biggest impact. Obama is very interesting because this is the end of Boomer tenure in the White House. I mean, he clearly is not a boomer, and if you do not believe it, ask him because he will tell you.
SM (00:37:43):
Yep.
DK (00:37:44):
And he is not acting like one.
SM (00:37:46):
Yeah. And he is being criticized for [inaudible].
DK (00:37:48):
If it will ever get back in the White House is not at all clear.
SM (00:37:51):
There is three things here. First off, on President Obama, he is being attacked because people think that he is bringing back the (19)60s. And then with Reagan and Bush, the thing that really strikes a lot of boomers about Reagan is that, when his bold statement, when he became President, "We are back". We are back. And he was referring not only to the military coming back to the way it used to be, but certainly the country. And then George Bush Sr. made a very important statement that really, if you were cognizant of it at the time it happened, "The Vietnam syndrome is over", and that, to me, whoa, that is a pretty strong statement. So to me, all those really kind of had strong impact on boomers as their agent.
DK (00:38:37):
Well, maybe so. Maybe so. I would have to think about that. I do not think of Bush as a, I think he was actually, Bush Sr. was a very underrated president. And in foreign affairs, actually, he was a very fine president, but I did not feel he was terribly influential. He did, of course, put the first boomer on the Supreme Court, namely Clarence Thomas. Another interesting example of a, well, that is a fascinating point. It partly has to do with the Republicans being better strategists about the Supreme Court. Well, except for [inaudible]. Now, all the boomers on the court are Republican and they are acting like it.
SM (00:39:33):
Yeah. Well, explain that. Explain that the boomer Supreme Court justices are acting like boomers. Get some specific-
DK (00:39:41):
If they do not like a law, they throw it out. If they do not like a precedent, they throw it out.
SM (00:39:47):
Who are the boomers, again, on the court?
DK (00:39:51):
The boomers on the court are Thomas, Alito, Roberts, and Sotomayor. No, I cannot say that about her yet. I mean, she has not done anything like that yet. She has not been around very long. And then you have got, Stevens is a GI, and so that would leave us with four silence. It would be Kennedy, Scalia, Breyer, and Ginsburg. That is right. That is right.
SM (00:40:24):
When you place a label on the generation, and the boomers had had a lot of labels, but which of these do you think truly defines the group? The Vietnam generation, the Woodstock generation, the (19)60s generation, the civil rights generation, the [inaudible]-
DK (00:40:41):
Certainly not the civil rights generation.
SM (00:40:44):
All right.
DK (00:40:44):
That is a complete fantasy.
SM (00:40:47):
Yeah, because that was more in the (19)50s, I believe.
DK (00:40:49):
That was in the (19)50s, in the early (19)60s. And in fact, boomers and especially African American boomers, to be blunt about it, destroyed the civil rights movement.
SM (00:40:59):
Are you talking about black power and Black Panthers?
DK (00:41:03):
Yes.
SM (00:41:04):
Could you go into that a little bit? Because that was one of my upcoming questions.
DK (00:41:07):
I am talking about not only that, but I am talking about the whole shift from a well-organized mass movement that was a very effective pressure group, into much smaller organizations focused on identity politics and turning their back on the system and things like that. But I would say, when you talk about Vietnam generation or Woodstock generation, you are talking about older boomers like us. So I do not know. I guess my generation would probably be the best one if I had to just think of one. But again, I think there is, well, yeah, the tendency is to focus on people about our age who actually lived through such fantastic changes as young adults. I mean, if you or I just think about what college was like the day we entered and the day we left, I mean, those were staggering changes.
SM (00:42:19):
Oh, yes.
DK (00:42:21):
But that was just the leading edge of the generation, of course.
SM (00:42:27):
You mentioned identity politics, the many movements that came out of the Civil Rights movement. Well, of course the anti-war movement took place, but you had the gay and lesbian movement, the women's movement.
DK (00:42:37):
Yes. Now, those could be-
SM (00:42:40):
Native American, environmental movement, all those movements.
DK (00:42:43):
Well, the feminist movement, although started by silence, it was certainly boomers who really picked that up and ran with it. And the gay rights movement was very much a boomer movement, although I guess a lot of the boomer gay rights leaders were decimated by aid. Actually, I have a younger brother who is gay, and he was written a good deal by gay issues. He has been in the gay journalist organization, and he was very fortunate health wise, and he has written a lot about that. But those definitely were boomer movements. And again, that is where I think we do have some things to be proud of, in terms of opening up personal options for people.
SM (00:43:43):
How would you mention the Chicano movement and certainly the Native American movement with AIM and the environmental movement that worked closely with the anti-war movement?
DK (00:43:56):
Well, I would have to look at exactly what they accomplished in the same way you would have to look at it for civil rights. Again, the basic pieces of environmental legislation were passed by bipartisan GI majorities, like the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act.
SM (00:44:24):
I am going to change this. Okay, go right ahead.
DK (00:44:33):
Now again, as boomers have gotten into power, the environment has not been doing very well, so I would not be able to take very much credit there. Now, again, the identity politics issue among Native Americans, Chicanos, and so on, is something that I am very ambivalent about, because I think that, and this is where I am still true to my childhood and the values I learned in my childhood before the awakening, when you focus on things like that, you are making it harder to form the kinds of coalitions that will get actual national action on anything. And that is why you see, at the individual level, I think boomers are pretty good at the... But anything requiring organization, leadership, coalitions, they are pretty hopeless.
SM (00:45:42):
One of the things that you remember during the anti-war movement, there seemed to be signs for all the groups together. The anti-war movement in its heyday seemed to bring all groups together. And then as you go later on into the (19)70s, (19)80s, (19)90s, you see more of a separation of...
DK (00:46:01):
Well, sure. But there was plenty of splintering in the anti-war movement, too.
SM (00:46:04):
Right. Especially around when the weatherman came in and... Yes. And of course, then the Vietnam veterans against the war took over the anti-war movement around (19)71.
DK (00:46:17):
That is right. You see, one thing you should understand about me, which I certainly think comes out in American tragedy too, is that, you see, my father had been in and out of, he had been in government through my whole childhood in various ways. I had met many leading Democratic office soldiers. I was too involved in that world to give up on the system completely, even after I turned against the Vietnam War. And that is why, unlike most of my contemporaries, I have not changed that much since I was in college. Now, that is also why I am extremely depressed at what I see happening around me now because I do not see those values I grew up with coming back. At least not yet. And I am beginning to wonder if I will ever see that. But that is another story.
SM (00:47:17):
Of course, the big issue now is, what will boomers do in old age? Because supposedly they are going to change even old age, how people retire. Dennis Hopper has that advertisement on TV about, of course, he is a perfect example of a-
DK (00:47:33):
Well, he is a silent.
SM (00:47:34):
Yeah. He is a silent, but still they use him for the advertisement. So the next 20 years still have to be written with respect to how they are-
DK (00:47:44):
What is interesting, and this makes me very sad. I mean, my wife and I talk about going back to the Boston areas to retire, and we are sure as hell not going to the Sunbelt or anything like that.
SM (00:47:57):
Right.
DK (00:47:59):
Well, actually, I think we talked into going to Austin, Texas, but that is a special case. But when you go to The Brattle Theater in Cambridge now, which was one of the great sites of my youth and where my cultural experience was broadened, most of the audience is going to have gray hair. So that, I think there is a good chance boomers will remain more focused on cultural things in retirement. I am kind of curious as to whether there will be any kind of, how shall I put this, self-denial movement having to do with the medical profession? And actually, it would be a great thing if boomers could set an example by accepting the idea that they will die and that it is not worth half a million dollars to prolong their life through four miserable months and things like that. But obviously that will be a very individual manner and we will just have to wait and see.
SM (00:49:16):
Yeah. Here is a question. So obviously we know that the TV was a big influence on boomers in the (19)50s because the World War II was obviously the radio and the fireside chats and everything, and then TV came about. Of course, today we have the technology and Facebook and the millennials and Generation X have been formed with a whole, and that is kind of split the generations too, just the technology issue. But the question I ask, and this is, I always think of my 1950s and I have had, I have interviewed people and of course an African-Americans experience in the (19)50s was different than a white person, and a female was different than a male, and certainly the gay and lesbians experience and all the other things here. But generally, when we are talking about TV, I am going to read this here. This was the first generation and they saw the news on TV, they saw sitcoms and black and white in the (19)50s. How important was TV in shaping the boomer lives with typical shows of when they were very young with Howdy Doody, Captain Kangaroo, Hopalong Cassidy, TV westerns, which we always saw, the Native American was the bad guy, the variety shows, the game shows, the live coverage of historic events, even early on, we saw the McCartney hearings and the Mickey Mouse Club, the median shaping lives both consciously and subconsciously. Of course, you did not see many people of color on TV in those days. Was there something happening that, what did the media do? Besides being the first TV generation, we saw the Vietnam War on TV in the (19)60s, but what is it about the media that truly shaped this generation?
DK (00:51:03):
Well, that is a very complicated question. I think that when you look at the TV from the (19)50s, now, I am struck by the sterility of it. I am struck by the use of laugh tracks often as a background of things that were really very funny. And I think it was all giving you a lot of messages about what you were supposed to feel. And that was part of what we eventually rebelled against. So that is one thing I would say. On the other hand, well, there is so many issues here. The news is very good. The news was much better than it was now. The (19)60s is probably the greatest age of TV news, I would say. And it was straightforward, it was no nonsense, and they had a real commitment to giving you the fact, and they would take some time for a complicated story in a way that they never would now. Now, I do think the single most important medium for changing the generation though, much more important than television, was music. And second most important, I would say, was movies. And again, the boomers were the audience for the cultural explosion in film in the late (19)60s. By the (19)70s, a few boomers were even making the new movies. And again, that was a great achievement and a really positive transformation of American life. Again, it is very sad that now that boomers run the studios, they do not sponsor making movies like that. I mean, for instance, if you say, I teach a course called Generations of Film, and it is all Gen Xers now, and the pivotal movie that I use to explain what the awakening was about, not the only one, but the pivotal one is One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and...
SM (00:53:52):
Jack Nicholson.
DK (00:53:53):
Yes. And not only is it a great movie, but I believe it was the top grossing movie in 1975. And although my students really enjoyed seeing it and got a lot out of it-
DK (00:54:03):
...my students really enjoyed seeing it and got a lot out of it. They unanimously agreed that it would not be a hit today. It is only because it moves too slowly. That is kind of sad too. There was one thing I did want to say. You mentioned the Mickey Mouse Club. There is something I will never forget the Mickey Mouse Club, and it was the end of the introduction, the announcer would read every day, which is very prophetic. It was dedicated to you, the leaders of the 21st century. All I can say is little did they know. It seems to me that the key thing about that was there were only three networks. There was very little difference between the networks. It was an aspect of the uniform, mass-produced culture that we grew up in and eventually rebelled again. I am putting down today's movies justifiably, but actually today's television, if you know where to look, there are a lot of tremendous things on today's belt, particularly on the cable channel and things that you certainly could never have dreamed of way back then.
SM (00:55:40):
Is there one specific event when you were young that had the greatest influence on you?
DK (00:55:50):
What kind of influence?
SM (00:55:53):
It impacted your life. A lot of people say the Kennedy assassination affected...
DK (00:55:57):
Well, certainly that. That is why-
SM (00:55:57):
That innocence.
DK (00:55:59):
That was my next book after American Tragedy and it was about that.
SM (00:56:02):
Yes.
DK (00:56:04):
That was the most traumatic event of my life, and it probably still is the most traumatic event of my life. Although, I did not really realize that at the time. The depth of that only emerged later. But no, the most influential event for me was definitely the Vietnam War.
SM (00:56:21):
Right. Almost everybody remembers where they were when they heard about President Kennedy was shot.
DK (00:56:27):
I remember exactly.
SM (00:56:28):
What is your personal experience of remembering that moment?
DK (00:56:33):
I was in boarding school in Connecticut, and we had been let out of lunch at 1:45, and I had to go see a dean or something in his office. I was in his office and some kid ran in and said, "Hey, they said the president has been shot." But, the way he said it, he clearly did not really believe it, and I did not either. Then I started to walk back to the dorm, and then I began to realize this was serious. I remember, I think I started to run, and when I got into the dorm, the radio was on and everybody knew this was really serious. Then I went down the hall to where the teacher on the floor lived and went into his place and he had TV on. I saw Cronkite read the announcement. When Cronkite read the announcement, I was still in a denial phase and I was sitting there saying, "No, please. Let us stop this tape now." I was not using that language, but that was the way I was feeling. This is all happening too fast. My most vivid memory about all that is I spoke to my parents that day. They were in Washington at that point, and they were very shaken. My father particularly, it was probably the most shaken I ever heard him. The next weekend was Thanksgiving weekend, and I went home. They had a huge party on Saturday night of that weekend with all their administration friends. I could not find anybody at that whole party who wanted to talk about Kennedy. All they wanted to talk about was Johnson and how well he was doing and what was going to be happening in the future. I was very shocked by that. It took me a long time to realize what was going on there. My real personal awakening was in 1968 as a result of Ted Johnson's withdrawal and my own complete reevaluation of a lot of my thinking about American foreign policy.
SM (00:59:24):
What were the most important books that you read when you were young and what were your peers reading? What were young people reading when you were a college student?
DK (00:59:40):
I would say the most important book for me, in the context of what we are talking about, and many others was Catch 22. I remember that I finished it on the night before my 21st birthday. That was in June of 1968. That was a great moment to be reading it. I had tried to read it earlier in the decade and I could not get into it because the idea of turning World War II into a joke just turned me off, as it turned off a lot of the older generation at that time. By 1968, I was ready for it.
SM (01:00:30):
You have actually written a book on Vietnam, An American Tragedy. The venue that I am dealing with here is an oral history and oral interviews. In your opinion, why did the Vietnam War end when it did? What was the main reason that it ended? Secondly, how important were the college student protests on the college campuses at ending the war?
DK (01:01:12):
How important were the college student protests at ending the war? Until Nixon, not at all. We now know that Nixon, in November of (19)69 decided not to massively escalate, in significant part because of the protests. He denied that at the time but we now know that that is true. Obviously, the reaction to Kent State meant that he was going to have to continue deescalating for political reason. Now, the protests did have another impact, I think, which in the long run was going to be far more significant, which was the end to the draft. Which is certainly not a bad thing. In fact, to some extent, and this is something that we have touched on already, you could also make a case that the protest prolonged the war because Nixon remarked to Haldeman, and I think to Henry Kissinger too, but certainly to Haldeman frequently, that the student protests were a godsend [inaudible] because older people hated the students so much. Again, Johnson decided not to escalate again and to withdraw in the winter of (19)68. I do not think that was mainly because of protests. I think it was because Clark Clifford had been convinced that it was useless, and because of very severe international economic strain that they had to pay attention to. Why it ended was that, I think Henry Kissinger, actually, there is some credit for trapping Nixon into that. The real reason was that they had this other huge agenda with the Russians and the Chinese, and Kissinger simply did not want to drag just to drag on for a few more years. As we now know, knew very well that this is likely to leave the collapses South Vietnam, but he did not care.
SM (01:04:39):
Could you talk a little bit about the atmosphere in America at the time of the Vietnam War? Particularly in the period between (19)67 and (19)71, (19)72 when deferments were happening all over the country and it basically became a poor man's war. People that did not have the power or the influence and the tensions between those 3 million boomers that served in Vietnam and the rest of the boomers who did not?
DK (01:05:21):
They lived in different worlds because for the most part, the ones who served were the ones who had not gone to college and vice versa. I do not think there was a lot of hostility between those two groups. I went into the Army Reserve in September of 1970, and I did basic training in (19)71. And my company was divided about 50 50 between draftees and enlistees on the one hand and National Guard and Reserves like myself on the other. That was so late that even the draftees were not living in terror of what was going to happen to them. They knew that their chance of dying in combat by that time was very low. That undoubtedly tanked things somewhat, but I did not feel there was a lot of hostility or much hostility at all based on that. I think it is very interesting that there was so much protest among college students who basically were protected from. One accusation that I think is false is the idea that they were just protesting because they were scared. I do not think that is true.
SM (01:07:08):
There is always these books out called Spinning Image. You have probably heard of that book where the troops had come back and they were spat upon when they-
DK (01:07:16):
My understanding is-
SM (01:07:17):
That really happened.
DK (01:07:18):
That that is largely amiss and that there are very few documented cases of that happening. I remember, I mean, I was not very lucky. I did my basic training in Fort Leonard Wood in the wilds of Missouri, but I got to go to St. Louis a couple times and I did not wear my uniform when I went. Some people did. I certainly did not hear about anybody getting a negative reaction to wearing their uniform. Of course, in that part of the country I do not suppose you would have. I do not remember ever hearing anything like that from anybody I met.
SM (01:08:07):
I go down to the Vietnam Memorial on Memorial Day in Veterans Day every year. You see some of the tensions of the commentary against those who were against the war, whether they be Jane Fonda or even when Bill Clinton-
DK (01:08:21):
Jane Fonda was-
SM (01:08:23):
Even when Bill Clinton came to the wall.
DK (01:08:24):
It is true that you can still get a rise out of almost anybody.
SM (01:08:26):
They booed Clinton when he came to the wall too. Quite a few veterans booed him in the background when he spoke there in (19)93.
DK (01:08:35):
Who?
SM (01:08:36):
Bill Clinton. Then when the Vietnam Veterans of America formed the anti-war group, there was tension between that group and other Vietnam veterans, which goes right into the Kerry situation in the 2004 elections. These tensions are still there.
DK (01:08:56):
That is true. I think that the Jim Webb type of veteran is a very vocal minority and I do not think is all that representative. The whole time I was in the Army, I did not meet one troop who was a developed believer in that war. And that is a fact.
SM (01:09:30):
Yeah. Even A Rumor of War by Phil Caputo, in his book talks about 1965, how they were starting to go against the war even then by some of the things that were happening. That is the troops thinking that. I have a very important question here that we actually asked Senator Muskie when a group of students that I took to Washington about maybe eight years ago, before he died. We asked him this question, do you feel that the boomers are still having problems with healing due to the extreme divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth? The divisions between black and white, between those who supported authority and those who criticized it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. Do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the following statement true? Time heals all wound. Is there truth in this statement?
DK (01:10:34):
No.
SM (01:10:34):
Your thought on whether [inaudible] healing.
DK (01:10:38):
There will never be a consensus among boomers about the war, about religion, about almost anything. That is the nature of the generation and what is likely to happen. We are in the third great crisis of our national life now. After the Civil War and the Depression of World War II, it is the profit generations that bring about those crises. As soon as the crisis is over, they are stuck into the attic. At some point that will happen again and no one will care what we think anymore. At that point you will see bipartisanship in the Congress and things like that, again. As long as we are around, those qualities will be towards applying.
SM (01:11:41):
I guess I am really-
DK (01:11:43):
I would not necessarily put it in terms of wounds and healing. The point is that we wear our heart on our sleeve and we are so obsessed with being right. Most of us will die that way.
SM (01:11:58):
So, just as there is 70 million different people in the boomer generation, 70 million people have different responses to the issue of healing.
DK (01:12:08):
Exactly.
SM (01:12:11):
What do you think the wall has done? Jan Scruggs wrote the book, To Heal a Nation. It is supposed to be a non-political entity to heal the veterans, those who served and the families of those who lost loved ones. He goes further and says we want to heal the nation on this. What do you think the wall has done to not only heal veterans but the nation? Just your thoughts.
DK (01:12:38):
That is a difficult question for me to answer. I am very pro wall. I am very moved by it. I think its significance may increase in a way. This depends on what is going to happen in the next 20 years. I constantly have to remind my own students, for instance, most of whom now were born when the war was over, that the entire casualties in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, or certainly the killed, the wounded it might be a little different, do not add up to half of 1968. When you look at that wall, it is brought home to you that even though that was thought of as a relatively small war, it was being fought on a scale which would be unimaginable today. That is progress to me, very important progress, which I hope not to see reversed in my lifestyle. There was an aroused minority that resented the wall. One advantage I have, although I have been writing about the US now for 20 plus years, I started out as a European historian, and my teaching here is still involved in the history of a lot of other nations. All great nations have made terrible mistakes and suffered terrible catastrophes as a result. Some of them much worse than what we suffered in Vietnam. Thus, it is not difficult for me to regard this as the kind of mistake that sadly any great nation is going to make once in a while. The wall, to me, can be viewed that way. People have complained that it makes it look like it was a traffic accident. To me, that is fine because I do feel it is a kind of a manmade catastrophe, though quite unnecessary [inaudible], but this is part of life.
SM (01:15:11):
The other area that I want to look into is the issue of trust. The boomers obviously experienced many leaders who lied to them and were dishonest in many ways. The result is that many, if not most did not trust their leaders. No matter what their role in society, they could be a President of the United States or of a university, a congressman, a senator, a corporate leader, a religious leader, anybody in a position of responsibilities. There did not seem to be any trust toward any of them. The question I am asking, is this a very distrustful generation or is that just a natural thing? I was a political science history major and I learned early on that lack of trust is something that is okay in a democracy because it challenges other points of view. Do you feel that this is a generation that did not trust, and if they did not trust, are they pass this on to their children and thus their children's children? Just your thoughts on that. I bring this up because I can remember in a Psych 101 class once in college, the professor saying, we are going to talk about trust today. In that class he said, "If you cannot trust someone, you will not be a success in life personally. You have got to be able to trust somebody." I have always remembered him saying that, and then seeing the generation that I was around in that classroom not really trusting anybody. Just wondering if that is really part of this generation.
DK (01:16:57):
I think it is part of the generation. While, I think it is a healthy impulse to distrust your government to a certain extent, I think that as with so many other things, we pushed it much too far so that it has prevented many boomers from looking at leaders of all kinds, realistically, at all. They are too quick to write them off based on one transgression. As a historian, it is my job to make meaningful comparison, not to compare everything to some hopeless ideal. So, that is a problem. On the other hand, that most definitely is not what boomers passed on to their kids. The millennials are very trusting of authority, almost shockingly so. Although, they do resent it very much if authority changes the rules in the middle of the game. That is the one thing that will really freak them out. They just want you to tell them what needs to be done so they can do it. I was shocked. Again, I did the same generations in film course at Williams and had them write autobiographical papers and you would have to waterboard these kids to get them say anything nasty about their parents. That is not true about GenX, at all.
SM (01:18:49):
Right.
DK (01:18:50):
And obviously it was not true about boomers.
SM (01:18:53):
It is interesting. Boomers had that big generation gap of their parents and there was a friction between boomers and Generation Xers. I found in my work in college that millennials get along pretty well with boomers. This is an important point to make. I have read some of the how, and I have read the latest book on millennials. I have read that.
DK (01:19:16):
I only read a little of that.
SM (01:19:18):
One of the things is that millennials do want to leave a legacy. But, it is when they want to leave it, that is the issue. They want leave a legacy once they are 40 and beyond. They want to get their job done, raise a family, and they just want to enjoy themselves in the twenties and thirties. Then in the forties, they want to give something back to society. Whereas, the boomers always had this feeling that they wanted to make a difference in the world. Maybe that is where they have a uniqueness, a link, both generations want to make a difference in the world. One wanted to do it when they were young and maybe have failed as they have gotten older. The others do not want to do it when they are young and they want to do it when they are older.
DK (01:20:15):
Boomers change their own world. I think their record of actually making a positive difference in the world at large is not very strong. I keep going back to that. It is interesting. I have a son who is a kind of an older millennial. He is already the principal of the charter school in Brooklyn. He works 16 hours a day and he has been under tremendous pressure, but he wants this to be the best middle school in New York. He may in fact be successful with that.
SM (01:20:52):
Wow. That is good.
DK (01:20:58):
He got into an interesting argument at Christmas with my wife, who is not... Christmas with my wife, who is not his mother, she is my second wife, and what she was trying to claim that the work he was doing was somehow inspired by Boomers. And, he said very politely, "If Boomers have had any influence on the positive changes in American education, I have not noticed it."
SM (01:21:22):
Wow.
DK (01:21:25):
And, he said, he came out of Teach for America. And, he said that for everybody who has been in Teach for America, the focus is totally on what works, what does not. What has actually shown results, what has not. And that is all. So, they probably will leave much more of a legacy. But, again, if you look at the transcendentals, I mean the legacy of the Civil War was that the union was preserved, but that was about it. And, they did not have the follow- up power to turn that into a real positive outcome, I think. In either the North or the South. And, the missionaries on the other hand, I mean, they left an enormous legacy. That is another the story.
SM (01:22:16):
You keep saying that the Boomers are not leaving much.
DK (01:22:23):
Not at an institutional level.
SM (01:22:28):
Well, where are they?
DK (01:22:29):
Personal level, maybe they are.
SM (01:22:33):
It is like individuals doing good things for others, but not as a community? In the hope-
DK (01:22:37):
No. And, also opening up emotional lives, opening up opportunities for minorities. I mean, the gay rights movement is a very revolutionary development and obviously a good one. The whole way that the therapeutic profession, the mental health profession has changed and become very important thanks to silencing Boomers. That is a huge step forward. Whereas remember in the (19)50s, to the extent that there was psychiatry, it was based on a very narrow Freudianism that assumed that your problems were in some sense of your fault. And, it certainly was not a result of something somebody had actually done to you or something like that. And, we have gone beyond that, and that is very important. So when you see, in the movies I use about Boomers, when I want to show a positive image, it is something like Goodwill Hunting and the Robin Williams character there who's a therapist. Or possibly An Officer and a Gentleman in which Foley, the drill instructor, is clearly a Boomer although Louis Gossett, the actor is [inaudible]. And, when I want to show a negative image, it is something like Wall Street and Gordon Gekko. And, we are where we are today because of many Gordon Gekkos.
SM (01:24:15):
Do you share Taxi Driver?
DK (01:24:18):
No.
SM (01:24:18):
That is the Vietnam vet who goes nuts.
DK (01:24:22):
Well, that is an interesting movie. Although I do not think, well, we could have a long conversation. I do not think that movie has a lot of broader significance the same way. Actually, I also have a particular theory about that movie.
SM (01:24:40):
There is the other movie-
DK (01:24:40):
Then there is the climax is a [inaudible]-
SM (01:24:43):
Yeah. There is the other movie too, that Jane Fonda was in. I forget it. It is Vietnam.
DK (01:24:48):
Coming Home.
SM (01:24:50):
Yeah. Coming Home.
DK (01:24:50):
Still have not seen that.
SM (01:24:51):
Yeah.
DK (01:24:53):
[inaudible] enough. I do not know why. I think [inaudible 01:24:52] movies about Vietnam are fabulous.
SM (01:24:56):
One of the things, I interviewed Richie Havens, I want to talk a little bit here about the music. We all know how good the music was, the influence it has had on the generation with all its social messages and all the types of music. Folk, rock, and obviously Motown. But, Richie said something pretty interesting. He said, "People make sometimes fun of Woodstock. One of the things I want to correct about Woodstock is that half the people of the 450,000, that there were not Boomers, they were older people who brought their families and they were World War II generations. So, it is not all about young people if they really study what Woodstock truly was." But, he said what it was is that it finally, "They cannot hide us anymore." And, it is in his book. "They cannot hide us anymore." And, he was referring to the Boomer children, the Boomer kids. He felt that the way the music and the media had tried to hide the Boomers and Woodstock really brought it out that the Boomers-
DK (01:26:07):
I was not there, but I have to dispute his facts as to the composition of the crowd.
SM (01:26:13):
Right.
DK (01:26:13):
I mean, I am sure there were good many silent there, but I certainly do not think there were very many World War II generation people there. And, in fact, one of the funniest things in the movie is that there is some dialogue among towns folk who are very divided, if you remember.
SM (01:26:31):
Oh yeah.
DK (01:26:32):
About the whole thing.
SM (01:26:32):
Yep. Yep.
DK (01:26:33):
And that is a great scene, actually. But, I suppose that is true, yes. That it did put the generation on the map. But again, the reaction from the older generation was not positive there.
SM (01:26:56):
But who were your role models when you were growing up? You personally?
DK (01:27:04):
Oh, what a difficult question. That is a terribly difficult question. I suppose some of the professors I had in one way or another. I had a very strange relationship with my own parents, in that we had very intense family life and they never understood that I was really a completely different person. I was pretty close to a couple of uncles. I had one in particular who was very much of the GI. I was also very... Let us see. There were a number of silent generation women who I became quite close to, who I think sort of picked it out very early on that the Boomers were more interesting than the GI men they were around. And, a lot of what I learned about movies, literature, and whatnot, was from people like that. One in particular actually, who is still alive, but there were a number of them. But, then I was more influenced by contemporary.
SM (01:29:00):
One of the things that is come up on some of the documentaries about the (19)60s and the Boomers when they were young in that period, is we came close to a second civil war. And, I have had people respond differently because so much was going on here with the cities going up in flames in the early (19)60s. You got Watts and then of course there was the fear when Martin Luther King died, cities were burning. I can remember with my brother going to baseball game at Connie Mac Stadium, were taking the train in from New Jersey, and we had to keep our heads down because there were snipers all over the place shooting at the subways. So, seemed like there was a second civil war happening. And, I would like your thoughts on that, because when people make comments about, and some of these documentaries about the Civil War, they say the next real era of that problem was not the depression World War II, it was the (19)60s.
DK (01:29:57):
All right.
SM (01:30:01):
And, then I had something that Malcolm one of my guests said and then we will close. Your thoughts on that?
DK (01:30:11):
Well, there were plenty of people who would have been willing to be foot soldiers, but I think it was misleading because the older generations who were in charge still, had shared values. Shared belief in institutions, and in fact all of that, by the mid (19)70s, they had not shaken the political structure very much so I think that was an illusion. Again, you could go back to around 1900 and you could find a lot of very violent strikes. You could find bombings, terrorism, things like that, and make the same kind of argument. But revolution, civil war only happens when the old order is really dying, which is what we have right now.
SM (01:31:13):
Yeah.
DK (01:31:14):
So, I think that no was, I think that is an exaggeration.
SM (01:31:23):
So, you make a very important point like what is happening now. I interviewed Malcolm Boyd last week.
DK (01:31:28):
Yeah.
SM (01:31:29):
I had a two-part interview with him. And, he mentioned that, that what is happening now in America has a greater chance of tearing this nation apart than anything that happened in the (19)60s.
DK (01:31:43):
Definitely.
SM (01:31:44):
Because-
DK (01:31:44):
Definitely the case.
SM (01:31:45):
I got you.
DK (01:31:46):
And, you see now we have got the total paralysis in Washington that at no time did you have anything like that then except maybe briefly during Watergate.
SM (01:31:57):
Why do you think so many people are actually trying to criticize President Obama? They may not like his policies, but they say he is just bringing the (19)60s back again. You have probably heard that before.
DK (01:32:07):
Well, that is ridiculous.
SM (01:32:08):
Yeah.
DK (01:32:08):
I mean, that is conservative propaganda. And, he is not a (19)60s person at all. But, that is what they pulled out against the Clintons too [inaudible].
SM (01:32:20):
And, my very last question, this is it. What has the Boomer generation left to future generations? What in your opinion, have they done? Now remember, they thought they were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. They were going to-
DK (01:32:36):
They have changed things enormously for more than half the population that is women and homosexual. And, that is not trivial. Meanwhile, they have unleashed a lot of raw economic forces with very unfortunate consequences. And, they have done great harm to the Western intellectual tradition. So, those are both positive and negative things.
SM (01:33:25):
Can you say a little bit more about the great harm to the Western intellectual tradition?
DK (01:33:30):
I already have.
SM (01:33:31):
Okay.
DK (01:33:31):
I mean, they have propagated the idea that reality is an individual matter, therefore standards of evidence do not matter. And, they have cut off universities from the real world to an extent that is almost medieval, in my opinion. So, that in a couple of centuries, or even in one century, if people are reading the articles that are appearing today in the American Historical Review, it will be just as difficult for them to intellectually engage those articles as it would be to engage medieval religious controversies.
SM (01:34:18):
Very good. All right.
DK (01:34:20):
No, well, I mean, I did not know what this is going to be like, but in terms of, and again, I really am very tired and in general, Mike.
SM (01:34:29):
Yep.
DK (01:34:30):
But in fact, what I am going to tell my wife, you may hear from me again about her. I think she expected that you were going to be asking a lot more questions about the interviewee's actual life and that is what she would be interested in bugging you about.
SM (01:34:52):
Well, I could have done that too.
DK (01:34:54):
Well, you see, because she actually, she was a hippie. She became a homesteader in Arizona.
SM (01:35:00):
Oh, yeah. That is-
DK (01:35:00):
She built this ranch from scratch. So, if you would like to talk to her about things like that, then you should.
SM (01:35:06):
Yep, definitely. Because, each interview has been different.
DK (01:35:10):
All right. Well then let me just give you her name and number.
SM (01:35:13):
Okay. Hold on a second. Let me write this down. Okay.
DK (01:35:15):
Yep. Patti, P-A-T-T-I. Cassidy. 4-0-1 4-2-3 3-9-0-6.
SM (01:44:12):
4-2-3 3-9-0-6?
DK (01:44:14):
That is right.
SM (01:44:16):
Does she have an email or do you?
DK (01:44:18):
Yes. Let me make sure I got that right. Wait a second. Hold it. She has a tricky email. I want to make sure it is right. Yeah. T-A-P-I-T-1.
SM (01:44:41):
P-A?
DK (01:44:42):
No-no-no. T as in Tom. T-A-P-I-T-1. That is an anagram for Patti you see, @gmail.com.
SM (01:44:55):
Say that one more time.
DK (01:44:57):
T as in Tom, A-P as in Patti, I, T as in Tom, one the numeral.
SM (01:45:05):
Okay.
DK (01:45:06):
@gmail.com.
SM (01:45:08):
Why did you want me to ask more about your personal life or?
DK (01:45:11):
No-no-no, that is fine. But, we did [inaudible].
SM (01:45:13):
Yep. Okay. Very good. Because you are the historian, I think, and you said some things about what made you who you are too. And-
DK (01:45:21):
I did a little bit. Yes.
SM (01:45:23):
Yep.
DK (01:45:24):
You see, it is very interesting. A friend of mine is Jamie Galbraith, who is John Kenneth Galbraith's son. And, John Kenneth Galbraith, by the way, did express himself publicly about American tragedy, which meant a great deal to me.
SM (01:45:43):
Yes.
DK (01:45:44):
And, Jamie is an economist at the University of Texas, and he is a new deal kind of economist, of which there are almost none left. Krugman is the best known, but practically none of them left. And, again, I think it is because he was too involved in our parents' world just to completely turn his back on it and decide that he could forget about everything we had ever learned. And, that was certainly the case with me too.
SM (01:46:21):
Well, one of the things that is come up on some of the documentaries about the (19)60s and the Boomers when they were young in that period is we came close to a second civil war. And, I have had people respond differently because so much was going on here with the cities going up in flames. And, the early (19)60s you got Watts. And, then of course there was the fear when Martin Luther King died, cities were burning. I can remember with my brother going to a baseball game at Connie Mac Stadium, we were taking the train in from New Jersey, and we had to keep our heads down because there were snipers all over the place shooting at the subways. So, seemed like there was a second civil war happening. And, I would like your thoughts on that, because when people make comments about, in some of these documentaries about the Civil War, they say the next real era of that problem was not the depression World War II, it was the (19)60s, and then something.
DK (01:46:22):
All right.
SM (01:46:22):
And, then I had something that Malcolm, one of my guests said and then we will close. Your thoughts on that?
DK (01:46:23):
Well, there were plenty of people who would have been willing to be foot soldiers, but I think it was misleading because the older generations who were in charge, still had shared values. Shared belief in institutions and in fact all of that, by the mid (19)70s, they had not shaken the political structure very much. So, I think that was an illusion. Again, you could go back to around 1900 and you could find a lot of very violent strikes. You could find bombings, terrorism, things like that, and make the same kind of argument. But, revolution civil war only happens when the old order is really dying, which is what we have right now.
SM (01:46:23):
Yeah.
DK (01:46:23):
So, I think that no was, I think that is an exaggeration.
SM (01:46:23):
So, you make a very important point, like what is happening now. I interviewed Malcolm Boyd last week.
DK (01:46:23):
Yeah.
SM (01:46:23):
I had a two-part interview with him. And he mentioned that, that what is happening now in America has a greater chance of tearing this nation apart than anything that happened in the (19)60s.
DK (01:46:23):
Definitely. Definitely the case.
SM (01:46:23):
I got you.
DK (01:46:23):
And, you see at now we have got this total paralysis in Washington that at no time did you have anything like that then, except maybe briefly during Watergate.
SM (01:46:23):
Why do you think so many people are actually just trying to criticize President Obama? And, they may not like his policies, but they say he is just bringing the (19)60s back again. You have probably heard that before.
DK (01:46:23):
Well, that is ridiculous.
SM (01:46:23):
Yeah.
DK (01:46:23):
I mean, that is conservative propaganda, and he is not a (19)60s person at all. But, that is what they pulled out against the Clintons too [inaudible].
SM (01:46:23):
And, my very last question, this is it. What has the Boomer generation left to future generations? What in your opinion, have they done? Now remember, they thought they were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. They were going to-
DK (01:46:23):
They have changed things enormously for more than half the population that is women and homosexual. And, that is not trivial. Meanwhile, they have unleashed a lot of raw economic forces with very unfortunate consequences. And, they have done great harm to the Western intellectual tradition. So, those are both positive and negative things.
SM (01:46:23):
Can you say a little bit more about the great harm to the Western intellectual tradition?
DK (01:46:23):
I already have.
SM (01:46:23):
Okay.
DK (01:46:23):
I mean, the idea, they have propagated the idea that reality is an individual matter, therefore, standards of evidence do not matter. And, they have cut off universities from the real world to an extent that is almost medieval, in my opinion. So, that in a couple of centuries, or even in one century, if people are reading the articles that are appearing today in the American Historical Review, it will be just as difficult for them to intellectually engage those articles as it would be to engage medieval religious controversies.
SM (01:46:23):
Very good. All right.
DK (01:46:23):
No, well, I mean, I did not know what this is going to be like, but in terms of, and again, I really am very tired and just like, but in fact, what I am going to tell my wife, you may hear from me again about her. I think she expected that you were going to be asking a lot more questions about the interviewee's actual life. And, that is what she would be interested in bugging you with.
SM (01:46:23):
Well, I could have done that too, actually.
DK (01:46:23):
Well, you see, because she actually, she was a hippie. She became a homesteader in Arizona.
SM (01:46:23):
Oh yeah.
DK (01:46:23):
And, built this ranch from scratch. So, if you would like to talk to her about things like that, then you should [inaudible].
SM (01:46:23):
Yep. Definitely, because each interview has been different.
DK (01:46:23):
All right. Well then let me just give you her name and number.
SM (01:46:23):
Okay. Hold on a second. Let me write this down. Okay.
DK (01:46:23):
Yep. Patti, P-A-T-T-I. Cassidy. 4-0-1 4-2-3 3-9-0-6.
SM (01:46:23):
4-2-3 3-9-0-6?
DK (01:46:23):
That is right.
SM (01:46:23):
Does she have an email or do you?
DK (01:46:23):
Yes. Let me make sure I get that right. Wait a second. Hold it. She has a tricky email. I want to make sure if I... Yeah. T-A-P-I-T-1.
SM (01:46:23):
P-A?
DK (01:46:23):
No, no, no. T as in Tom. A-P-I-T-1. That is an anagram of Patti, you see. @gmail.com.
SM (01:46:23):
Say that one more time.
DK (01:46:23):
T as in Tom, A-P as in Patti, I-T as in Tom, one the numeral.
SM (01:46:23):
Okay.
DK (01:46:23):
@gmail.com.
SM (01:46:23):
Why did you want me to ask more about your personal life or?
DK (01:46:23):
No-no-no, that is fine. What we did was fine.
SM (01:46:23):
Yep. Because, okay, very good. Because, you are the historian, I think, and you said some things about what made you who you are too.
DK (01:46:23):
I did a little bit. Yes.
SM (01:46:23):
Yep.
DK (01:46:23):
I was, you see, it is very interesting. A friend of mine is Jamie Galbraith who is John Kenneth Galbraith's son. And, John Kenneth Galbraith, by the way, did express himself publicly about American tragedy, which meant a great deal to me.
SM (01:46:23):
Yes.
DK (01:46:23):
And, Jamie is an economist at the University of Texas, and he is a new deal kind of economist, of which there are almost none left. Krugman is the best known, but they practically none of them left. And again, I think it is because he was too involved in our parents' world just to completely turn his back on it and decide that he could forget about everything we had ever learned. And, that was certainly the case with me too.
SM (01:46:23):
Well.
(End of Interview)
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Dr. David Kaiser
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Kaiser, David ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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College teachers; Physics; Massachusetts Institute of Technology; Kaiser, David--Interviews
Description
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Dr. David Kaiser is a professor of Physics and the History of Science at MIT. He received his Bachelor's degree in Physics at Dartmouth College and Ph.D.s in Physics and the History of Science at Harvard University. His historical research focuses on the development of physics in the United States during the Cold War. Additionally, his research in physics studies the early-universe cosmology, working at the interface of particle physics and gravitation.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-02-09
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.71a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.71b
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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106:26
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65829d97b5e87e01bfb4eca9cf8f290c.jpg
96123d3f7b6889b06c9c8014011cfb05
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/84fb5c1eb3283eb5222bc550d5deccae.mp3
7bf130560ee93de761daf1a646bd58f5
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Paul Von Blum
Date of Interview
2010-02-12
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He recevied his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He received his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University.</span>
Duration
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150:50
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ku Klux Klan; racism; Communist; Paul Robeson; free speech; Anderson School of Management; Universities; students; Ann Coulter; Columbia University protests of 1968"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Ku Klux Klan; racism; Communist; Paul Robeson; free speech; Anderson School of Management; Universities; students; Ann Coulter; Columbia University protests of 1968</span>
Subject LCSH
College teachers; African Americans—Study and teaching; University of California, Los Angeles; Von Blum, Paul--Interviews
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Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Paul von Blum
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 13 July 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:03):
The first question I have is what were your ear early years, where did you grow up, where did you go to high school and college, and who were the greatest influences in your life early on? Was it parents, teachers? What was it in your environment that made you who you are?
PVB (00:00:20):
Yeah, I grew up in Philadelphia, so I am a Philly kid, but I grew up in a very politically active household. The family background was crucial, both in terms of my intellectual consciousness and my political activism. I come from a Holocaust background. My father was the sole survivor of his family. I actually have a memoir coming out in about a month and a half where I detail all of this. But my father was the sole survivor and very early on in my own life, it was perfectly clear that he understood that racism, that the same racism that killed his entire immediate family was virtually identical the racism that was oppressing the African-American population in the United States. Very early on in Philadelphia, I learned the kind of profound and vigorous anti-racism growing up. From early childhood, I grew up in a progressive family in Philadelphia, and I think probably the seminal event growing up, not in Philly, although I was born in Philly, we lived in a variety of suburbs, Delaware County, Montgomery County, and then most significantly, in Bucks County. As a kid, I went to the Philadelphia public schools and the variety of suburban schools, but the most seminal event occurred in 1957, one of the huge racial crises of the United States. The early civil rights movement occurred there in 1957 when I was 14. My parents and several other families broke the color line in Levittown. Levittown, as you may know, was one of the large post-second World war suburban development. My parents moved there because it was an opportunity for World War II veterans in particular to buy low cost housing. We moved there from Philly. What my parents did not realize was that Levitt would not sell to African Americans. I think we moved there in 1955 when I was 12, and by the time I was 13, my parents were involved in an almost conspiratorial way with a variety of other families, almost entirely, not completely, but almost entirely Jewish in meeting to do something about the break from the color line. By August of 1957, they had arranged for the first black family, Bill and Daisy Meyers moved in. The story of the Levittown integration crisis is well known, and in 1957 in August, there were huge riots, white racist riots in Levittown testing the entry of the first they called Negro family. I was the oldest of four children then there. Now, there were five. Another one was born afterwards and I was the oldest of the five, so I was involved as a spectator in all of the meetings. I was curious, so I went to all of those. I was there when the Myers then moved in, I was there when the mobs gathered and I was there less than a month later when they get Ku Klux Klan in Pennsylvania right across our lawn. In fact in December of 1957, I actually testified against the Ku Klux Klan in Doylestown. My activism started very early on and I saw the kind of vicious hate-filled white racist mobs. They called themselves the Levittown Betterment Committee. Even as an early teenager, I was exposed to the horrific character of American racism and those were probably the seminal events that molded my anti-racist attitude that have remained to this day. Still, I am a professor of African-American studies at [inaudible] and there is a direct connection between my teenage experiences in Levittown and my professional and activist life year.
SM (00:05:07):
I think there is a book that just came out on Levittown about that.
PVB (00:05:10):
I have read it.
SM (00:05:11):
Yeah, and I bought it. I got so many books I bought, I have not had a chance to read. Obviously, what a great upbringing in terms of learning early on and helping shape who you are, particularly when you see injustice and you want to fight it. Would you say that your parents were your heroes because your parents were taking the lead there?
PVB (00:05:32):
They were the daily role models. They stood up courageously and at a great cost because in 1957 it was kind of late McCarthyism. McCarthy himself had faded, but there was still a great deal of retribution against what was then called premature anti-racist. My father kept losing his jobs, politically inspired losses obviously, and that is what in 1959 of our move to California. My parents traveled in kind of left-wing circles, and so I was exposed early on to that whole leftist culture, not a communist culture by the way. It was a very radical culture, but my parents were never in the party. When I was five years old living in Philadelphia, my parents were active in the Progressive Party campaign by Henry Wallace, party Turgeon campaign in (19)48. But my parents, unlike many of the progressive party supporters, were not communist party members. They were in the non-communist left.
SM (00:06:51):
Yeah. I mentioned there, and I noticed in reading that you are a big fan of Paul Robeson-
PVB (00:06:57):
Extremely.
SM (00:06:58):
I want to tell you a story, but this is your interview, but I think it is important to the question. I know all about what happened in 1947 in Peekskill New York. I found out about this many years after my grandfather died. My grandfather was the Methodist minister in Peekskill from 1954, no, excuse me, 1936 to 1954. I never knew any of this because he died in 1956, but in reading the history books, I could not believe that my grandfather lived in a town that did such terrible things to Paul Robeson.
PVB (00:07:31):
It was horrible.
SM (00:07:32):
Pete Seeger was there with him too.
PVB (00:07:34):
Absolutely, so were other luminaries like Howard Bass and a variety of others.
SM (00:07:41):
I am a big fan of Paul Robeson too. He was a, what do you call, man for all seasons. He was town in so many different ways.
PVB (00:07:48):
Everything. I am the first person ever to do an entire university course on Paul Robeson and it is fair to say that from early childhood, I was introduced to Paul Robeson, not only as a singer but as a political activist. My parents said that they introduced me to him in 1948 at the Progressive Party Convention. I do not recall it, but from early childhood on, and this continues through my adult life, I would say that of all the people in America, he is my biggest inspiration. One for his extraordinary courage and two for his multidimensional talents with a sole exception of his problematic personal life, which I do not particularly admire. But other than that, he would be my kind of role model, somebody who was brilliant at everything he did and who had the courage of his convictions throughout the entirety of his life.
SM (00:08:59):
One thing I find about when you study America in the beginning, near a time when boomers were born after World War II, that period between (19)46 and (19)60 really is that many of the people that were persecuted, I think, whether it be the Hollywood Ten or people in government, professors in universities, all kinds of people, and Paul Robeson being one of them, is that many times the reason they became linked to the Communist Party is because that was the only party that dealt with the issue of race.
PVB (00:09:37):
They were among the best on the issue of race. Going back to the (19)30s, they were upfront about the Scottsboro case. My parents, they always knew communists. They were always fond of them, but they were themselves never party members. I have ambivalence about the communists, I have always respected them. And this is also generational, when I was born in 1943 and was very much active vigorously in the (19)60s, and so my generation of activists hardly ever joined the Communist Party. I always respected them for what they did. The other hand, I was never blind to their blindness about the Soviet Union challenge. I was always critical of that. I remained so in my teaching, I always point out about the Communist Party blindness toward the Soviet and Stalin's crimes, including Paul Robeson. I am well respected in the ropes and community, but I have never been reluctant to criticize him for his own blindness about Stalin and the Soviet Union.
SM (00:10:53):
Would not you say though that there was some truth in that late (19)40s and 1950s, maybe even the first few years of the (19)60s, that the people that had some people who had been communists really disliked Stalin, disliked him immensely. They only cared about the issue of race, so, and they got caught up on being blamed for liking the communist system, which they did not.
PVB (00:11:16):
Sure. Now, there were some like that. There were well-meaning people and I continued to have respect for a lot of them. Many of those people are no longer around. I mean, that is generational. Many of them have passed along. I concur with that.
SM (00:11:34):
I want you to put your teacher's cap on now because I have some really cross questions to ask about you, not as a student now, but as a young professor in the (19)60s and (19)70s. As a teacher, beginning at Berkeley in the (19)60s through today at UCLA, what in your view, did the university learn from student activism and protests on their campuses?
PVB (00:12:00):
They did not learn enough. This is extremely important to me. I went to Berkeley in the (19)60s, was very active in the free speech movement, and I think that was one of the moral highlights of the entire history of the University of California. Beyond the specific issue of free speech, what we tried to do in the free speech movement at Berkeley was to reform the university so that it would make the big prestigious research universities to make undergraduate education a much higher priority. As a personal academic, 42 years standing, that has been my highest priority. I am sorry to say that at the institutional level, I have not been particularly successful. At the individual level, I have been spectacularly successful. But the university's priorities have at places like at the University of California, the University of Wisconsin and Michigan, places like that, by and large, they are indifferent to the needs of undergraduate students. What they have learned from the (19)60s, unfortunately, is how to be more clever at containing student protests.
SM (00:13:20):
Yeah, they are much more subtle, so to speak.
PVB (00:13:25):
They are. With a couple of exceptions, they no longer bring in the police and the storm troopers to beat people up. They have learned to be much more adaptable, they have learned how to pat students on the head and referred things to committees that never do anything. They no longer use the tactics of brutality that they used when I was a student.
SM (00:13:53):
What I find interesting, and I do not know about every campus here just from what I know, is that universities have designated spaces where students can protest. Obviously, you do not want them in front of a building when a person's teaching a class, so I think one of them they had learned that disrupt classes time is not the right thing to do. It creates a negative image. But if I were a student today, knowing what happened back then, I would be protesting. The fact that I have to... This is my space, it is the only place that kind of-
PVB (00:14:37):
Some schools have attempted to do that. Universities are within their constitutional rights that say that there is certain places you cannot... You cannot walk into a professor's class right in the middle of a class because any public entity has legitimate time, place mannered regulations. On the other hand, you cannot just take one small part of a campus and say, this is your free speech area. That violate the First Amendment. I should add here, I am not sure when you have looked me up, I am also a lawyer.
SM (00:15:06):
No.
PVB (00:15:08):
I know something about the First Amendment. I have an undercurrent of political legal experience. It is not a major part of my professional or personal identity, but I paid $410 a year to keep my state bar membership up.
SM (00:15:24):
Well, that is good.
PVB (00:15:25):
But I know something about this.
SM (00:15:27):
Yeah, I remember recently in the interview process, I interviewed Dr. Arthur Chickering. I do not know if you know him.
PVB (00:15:33):
Yeah, he has done a lot of writing on higher ed.
SM (00:15:37):
He wrote Education and Identity, the Seven Vectors of Development, and he is anything but a radical. He is retired now but I asked him in the interview, is there anything in the universities today that you regret or any thoughts? He says, "Yes, I regret the corporate takeover again of universities."
PVB (00:15:59):
That is a huge problem and it is moving vigorously in that direction, and I regret it profoundly.
SM (00:16:08):
These are some specific things here. Now, what did you learn from the free speech movement itself in (19)64 and (19)65?
PVB (00:16:15):
What I learned was that in order to get anything done in a university, you need sustained collective action. I know from my own career that the successful mobilization of student power can be extremely effective. There have been several instances in my own unusual career trajectory when I have been under attack by university authorities, where I have been able to mobilize student power. It is not so much that they have saved me, which they have, but they have been able to mobilize on behalf of the educational ideals that I have represented for over 40 years.
SM (00:16:59):
Obviously, these are all issues that were important in the (19)60s and (19)70s. It was even still, some of these things were happening in the (19)80s and (19)90s, but seemed to not be happening today. What did the universities learn about military recruits on campus because they were back?
PVB (00:17:14):
They were back. I remember both as a students, as young faculty member at Berkeley, we tried to resist that. It is an ongoing problem. At a place like UCLA, we do not have a lot of military recruitment. Basically today, military recruiting is done in working class and neighborhoods where you have a proportion of very poor people and especially people of color. It is not as huge deal as it was because we do not have a draft.
SM (00:17:49):
We have already talked about this, but what did they learn about too much corporate control or respect to fundraising, which fundraising is such a big thing that the presidents do at all universities, so they may have control over speakers or ideas. Just your thoughts on fundraising within universities today-
PVB (00:18:09):
That is all basically all they really care about, it is money, and increasingly, you have a corporate dominated university, even a public university, which remains a public entity, you now have corporate sponsorship of research projects, you have corporate sponsorship of athletic programs, you have corporate sponsorship. Even of buildings in the new school of management is now the Anderson School of Management, expect soon with this trajectory that they will start naming the restrooms after-
SM (00:18:48):
Yeah. I was joking after spending 22 years at a university, and I said, "Well, I wonder what they had put my name on." I think someone joke and said, "Gee, you might get a stall in one of the restrooms," but it would still cost at least a minimum of 10 grand.
PVB (00:19:06):
10 grand. I was thinking that would cost me that for a urinal.
SM (00:19:12):
Good. Who knows? What do you think the universities learned from activist students, the concept of student empowerment? Because students have power today because they control budgets, and I know that students are somewhat linked to presidents overall. Presidents are trying to link up with students more and more. There is a really good website yesterday on CNBC about the president of George Washington University trying to get close to his students.
PVB (00:19:40):
Yeah, I hope I do not sound excessively cynical, but it seems to me that universities have learned and effectively how-to co-op their students. What they do is they take student leaders to lunch, they promise them letters of recommendation for law school, they bring them to banquets. They do a variety of things in order to neutralize them, in order to keep them from becoming basically a significant effect of oppositional element. Students and administrations are naturally and should be naturally at odds with one another, but university administrators become increasingly sophisticated at muting those tensions. It varies obviously from campus to campus year to year, but they have done a basically good job of keeping student oppositional forces. Although, sometimes they cannot do very much, much about it. Last November, for example, when the regents of the University of California hit the students with a 33, 34 percent fee increase, there were huge rallies throughout the university, and I was one of the speakers. I am an effective public speaker and I will continue to do that a long time to come.
SM (00:21:12):
In some sense, the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s really did not fear about being active with respect to getting a job whereas the students of the day, if they act, they might not get the recommendations they need to-
PVB (00:21:26):
Yeah, they are very worried. I understand that it is a tough economy. I have a lot of friends who are very, very active 40 years ago, and many of them remain as I do, very politically active, and we talk about these things. We were never really concerned about what the implications would be, we were out on the streets doing what we did with very minimal concern about what the future implications of our activism would be. That is not the case with a lot of young people today. When I tell them that I got arrested several times, they say, "But did not it hurt your career?" I said, "Obviously, it did not hurt my career. I am standing in front of you in a classroom."
SM (00:22:14):
What did the universities learn from Kent State and Jackson State in 1970? I am going to preface this with just a comment.
PVB (00:22:25):
Go ahead.
SM (00:22:26):
You never hear about it.
PVB (00:22:27):
No, you never hear about it. My students have occasionally heard of Kent State, they have never heard of Jackson State. Never. Every time I mentioned Jackson state, it is absolutely new. I think what the universities have learned is that in both cases, it was a public relations disaster. They have learned to take all kinds of steps, never to replicate that again. It is extremely unlikely that we will ever see that kind of fatality on a university campus of that magnitude. They will never let that happen again.
SM (00:23:05):
What do you think the university has learned from controversial speakers on campus? One of the criticisms of the new left today is that the controversial speakers that were on college campuses in the (19)60s and (19)70s, whether Kathleen Cleaver, the Black Panthers or like that, some of the universities did not really like for public relations reasons, has now shifted where the new left of liberal professors and administrators do not like conservative speakers on campus like Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin. Really, what the liberals are doing is exactly what the administrators were thinking back in the (19)60s. What are your thoughts?
PVB (00:23:49):
I am a strong believer in free speech and where you have leftist attempts to censor people, I would resist that. Having said that, there is no particular reason to ask a Michelle Malkin or an Ann Coulter to come to her university. They have nothing to offer. I have no problem with having thoughtful conservatives, and there are many, but neither Ann Coulter nor Michelle Malkin fall into that category. They are not serious thinkers.
SM (00:24:21):
How about Pat Buchanan and Bay Buchanan?
PVB (00:24:25):
They would be worth hearing. I would easily chop either of them up in a debate, but I would not debate an Ann Coulter. The last time I had a debate with somebody as that, I debated the former Congressman William Dannemeyer from Orange County, he was a moron. I could have had a lobotomy and beaten him in the debate. If you are going to have a debate, you should have somebody of reasonable stature and somebody who is not a buffoon like Ann Coulter.
SM (00:25:01):
I know that the two that seem to have the greatest strengths is William Bennett and Dinesh D'Souza because they are...
PVB (00:25:08):
They are smart enough so that they are entitled to make a debate. I just dislike both. I do not know either of them, but I just like their position but either of them would be a significantly worthy adversary.
SM (00:25:26):
I am almost done with this little thing, these are all important. What did they learn from Columbia University? What happened there and the Harvard Yard and protests?
PVB (00:25:37):
Oh, they have learned to be much more clever. It is extremely unlikely that you will have another Columbia in (19)68. Today's administrators are just a lot more clever than they were a couple of generations. That is going to happen again. They know how to do it, they have become much more patient. They have social control experts and they just know what they are doing more. In some respect, we would be better off if we had better have these more vigorous confrontations, but we will not.
SM (00:26:21):
What did we learn from, and this happened on my campus, Tommy the Narcs?
PVB (00:26:26):
They came.
SM (00:26:26):
Yeah, they came looking for drugs.
PVB (00:26:35):
Well, that is part of the anti-drug hysteria in this country. I would hope that in [inaudible], some of that will dissipate. Yeah, you hardly have any of that. Certainly, you have drugs on every campus, but the biggest drug abuse on most campuses that I can certainly say that with a lot of confidence at UCLA is alcohol abuse.
SM (00:27:06):
Two more here. What did they learn from affirmative action and from curriculum reform? Those are the two...
PVB (00:27:13):
Well, I have been a proponent for 40 years for both. In California, of course, in affirmative action, we have the Notorious Proposition 209, and so we have been fighting... One of my departments is African-American Studies, and I am a member of the Ralph Gate Bunche Center for African-American Studies. We have been in the forefront about trying to do something about the profound underrepresentation of African-American students. We have made modest progress, but I am a strong and vigorous supporter of affirmative action. We need another generation of affirmative action. We have a long way to go. In terms of curricular reform, we are not even close to what we need. We have had some modest curricular improvements since the (19)60s. The wave of student activism in the (19)60s generated important reforms. We would not have had ethnic studies. I was involved in the first wave of protests that created black studies, now African-American studies, which gave rise to Chicano studies, Asian-American studies, Native American studies, and then women's studies. But alpha (19)60s activism, we would not have any of that, so that is been important. Another area that came out of (19)60s activism was a greater commitment toward interdisciplinary studies. We have made significant progress, but we still have a long way to go. In a university, the disciplinary nomination of the curriculum still remains the fundamental reality, and I still think we need to make major progress. I am not an objective observer, I have been a player in this realm for my entire academic career. I am contemptuous of the traditional academic disciplinary structure, I am fond of telling my students that I have plenty of discipline, but no discipline.
SM (00:29:28):
One of the things when you are talking about the curriculum is liberal arts. Seems that liberal arts really was strong in the (19)60s, particularly mid-60s and beyond, because it really was the epitome of what Mario Savio was saying at the Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65, that the universities need to be about ideas.
PVB (00:29:51):
And we need-
SM (00:29:52):
Ideas and not about corporate control or preparing people for jobs like the IBM mentality.
PVB (00:30:03):
Mario was absolutely right. He was a wonderfully, thoughtful and eloquent person, and his view on the university I think was extraordinarily perceptive, and I absolutely agree with them. I think we need a much greater commitment to the liberal arts tradition. The idea of transforming the university into a practical job preparation institution is a profound mistake because the jobs that we are preparing them of young men and women for today will be obsolete in a generation. The most practical thing that we can do is to give them the most rigorous liberal arts education combined with the traditional skills of critical thinking, writing, public speaking, and the like.
SM (00:30:57):
Do you think that is certainly a positive that came out of the boomer generation and the professors and students of that era?
SM (00:31:03):
...boomer generation and the professors and students of that era. I fear that liberal arts is really being threatened today.
PVB (00:31:10):
It is, and partly it is a lot of the boomer parents who have, I am sorry to say, very minimal vision about the fundamental value of a liberal arts tradition. They keep pushing their students, not their students, their sons and daughters into practical things. Learn about computers, learn about engineering, learn about accounting. And I can understand the parental need to do that, but it is short-sighted and mistaken.
SM (00:31:47):
Yeah. How often have you heard, in your time at UCLA, and I have heard it wherever I have worked is, "What are you going to do with a philosophy degree?"
PVB (00:31:57):
I hear it thousands of times.
SM (00:31:59):
Yeah. There is still people that just do not get it, the importance of... My golly, if you read Bertrand Russell, oh my god, there is things in there that you will remember the rest of your life.
PVB (00:32:10):
Absolutely. And it is something that is, in fact, perfectly practical, that if you unite what you are going to do day in and day out with a deeper philosophical vision, one, you will do your work better, and two, your life will be infinitely more meaningful.
SM (00:32:31):
Just a little commentary here on comparing the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s to the students of the (19)80s, (19)90s, and even the (20)10s today. I know it is very difficult, you cannot talk about... the boomer generation is 74 million and only a percentage went to college, so you cannot just be talking about college students here, but we are talking about young people overall. But you have been in the classroom and you have seen the students of all these eras. There is smart kids in every generation, so it is not about smarts. But I guess the areas that I am most interested in is activism, overall knowledge of what is going on in the world, students that challenge their professors more, that like to interact with professors in the classroom, and being up-to-date with the news.
PVB (00:33:22):
They are not, they are not. I have immense popularity with my students. I have done extraordinarily well. I have won every conceivable teaching award you can win, but I am very blunt when I tell my students that, in the aggregate I have a lot of really good students, who are extraordinarily critical and extremely knowledgeable, but in the aggregate, my students are not particularly knowledgeable. And even more insidiously, not particularly intellectually curious. They do not know what is going on in the world. They can tell you all about Lindsay Lohan and Lady Gaga and they cannot tell you what the hell is happening two days ago in Uganda, and that is not good for democracy.
SM (00:34:07):
I agree, I agree. A typical college scene in the (19)60s, and again, it does not always have to be technology changes, but at Binghamton University, I can remember people buying the newspaper, The New York Times, The Binghamton Press. They were-
PVB (00:34:23):
Nobody reads the newspaper.
SM (00:34:24):
...reading the newspapers. They subscribe to Time and Newsweek. They were reading them. And I know now we have the computer and they can get access on the computer. The question is, are they going to CNN? Are they going to the news or are they going to see Lindsay Lohan?
PVB (00:34:35):
Their protestation's that they read the news on the internet. I believe they think they are reading the news on the internet, and I believe what is actually happening is that they are glancing at the headlines on the internet. That technology... and look, I use the computer every single day, I could not live without it, but it is not a substitute for in-depth reading. You cannot follow the news by itself on the internet, unless you are ready to devote a huge amount of time, and that is not what they are doing on the internet. They are doing Facebook, they are doing email, they are doing whatever it is that they are doing, but they are not reading the news in a thoroughly systematic way. There are exceptions, but not many.
SM (00:35:31):
You were-
PVB (00:35:32):
[inaudible] out of 100 of my students, if that, reads the newspaper in a sustained way.
SM (00:35:39):
I am going to go back here to the Free Speech Movement again, you were there for the Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65. Would it ever have-
PVB (00:35:47):
Beginning to the end.
SM (00:35:48):
Would it ever have happened if they gave in and allowed the group to hand out the political literature?
PVB (00:35:55):
No.
SM (00:35:55):
Would the Free Speech Movement ever really have happened?
PVB (00:35:57):
No. They would have aborted it. And the University of California at Berkeley administration was colossally inept. Did you ever see the documentary Berkeley in the (19)60s?
SM (00:36:12):
Yes-yes. Yes, I have it. I own it.
PVB (00:36:17):
Yeah. I am no great fan of Professor John Searle, but he said in there the administration blew it again. They were colossally inept. Every time they could have aborted what happened, they did not. They just committed another atrocity. And so, they made it absolutely easy for us to do what we did. And I was involved in every single demonstration of the FSM.
SM (00:36:50):
Hmm. Clark Kerr is interesting, because when I went to graduate school, we had to read his book Uses of the University.
PVB (00:36:56):
I bought it.
SM (00:36:57):
Yeah. Oh, you did?
PVB (00:36:58):
I did.
SM (00:36:59):
Yeah, well I loved the book and when I interviewed Bettina Aptheker when she was on sabbatical in New York this winter, she just really did not like Clark Kerr, but then later on she somehow met him and she said she liked him. But Clark Kerr's interesting, because he is the man that talked about the knowledge factory and that higher ed was heading to the knowledge factory and more people had access to education than ever before. And my question is this, Clark Kerr said in the book The Uses of the University that higher education had become a knowledge factory where students were learning skills to prepare for the world of work. Students at that time had an issue with a factory mentality, like they did with IBM mentality, where they were asked to conform if they wanted a job. Your thoughts on issues like this, just that boomers forced and challenged the universities that were heading toward the research universities of today. I know there is a lot here, but he seems to be a very important figure in higher education and even though-
PVB (00:38:11):
It has been years since I talked to Bettina, I am much more critical about Clark Kerr. I find him the architect of an institutional setting that I find repressive and extraordinarily unfortunate. I do not want the knowledge factory. I want a university that really generates truly liberal education, that allows people the kind of critical thought that will allow them to find their own way, and not one that will have them adapt to the demands advanced capitalist society. I really think that Clark Kerr is the architect of everything that is wrong with higher education.
SM (00:38:50):
What is interesting about Clark Kerr is he got fired by Ronald Reagan during the time-
PVB (00:38:54):
I know it.
SM (00:38:58):
...that ...Because Ronald Reagan wanted to fight the students.
PVB (00:38:58):
No, I know. And I remember when he got fired, I was still a student at Berkeley then, before I started teaching, and I remember... I will never forget Mario Savio's kind of cryptic comment when he was interviewed on television when he was asked to comment about the recent firing of Clark Kerr, he said kind of off-the-cuff, "Good riddance to bad rubbish." Now, that is harsh, but I understand it, and at the emotional level, I agree with it.
SM (00:39:33):
Obviously, you knew Mario and Bettina and-
PVB (00:39:38):
Not well.
SM (00:39:39):
Not well. And I know David Lance Goines, who I have interviewed, too, was part of that. And he never came back to the university he was so upset.
PVB (00:39:46):
No, I know it, and I have read his book. I have read his book on the FSM. Again, I have met him but do not know him well. I knew some of the other people much better. The kind of official... it is a shame, I do not know if you ever interviewed Michael Rossman.
SM (00:40:05):
No.
PVB (00:40:05):
He died. But Michael was kind of the official archivist. He died about two years ago of leukemia.
SM (00:40:12):
Right.
PVB (00:40:13):
He was the one I knew the best.
SM (00:40:18):
The one that was in the car was Weinberg?
PVB (00:40:20):
Jack Weinberg.
SM (00:40:21):
Yeah. I would love to interview him, but you were there on that plaza that day, were not you?
PVB (00:40:27):
I was.
SM (00:40:30):
Can you describe what that day was like? I mean-
PVB (00:40:33):
It was wonderful. It was exhilarating. We had, I believe, a collective sense of our student power. We had a sense that we were challenging authority and that, indeed, we could win. When we stopped that police car from taking Jack Weinberg to jail, we had a sense of our extraordinary power. Now, I would add something. A very large number of the people who were there, myself included, had been veterans of the Civil Rights Movement. We knew that we could do that. We had had plenty of experiences. Jack Weinberg was a good example. We had been in the South. We knew the enormity of the impact of collective power. And we were not at all intimidated by the university. I mean, my god, we had challenged a racist southern church. We were not afraid of university deans. But it was an extraordinary day. I was there the whole time, and it was 30 some hours that Jack Weinberg was in there. I was there virtually the entire time. I think the only time I was not there was when I went into the student union to use the restroom.
SM (00:41:56):
Yeah, because the wide angle pictures that you see of that scene are thousands of students. I mean, and then you had this car in the middle that is not even being hurt. It is not even being scratched.
PVB (00:42:12):
People took their shoes off. Let me tell you, the only reason-
SM (00:42:12):
Let me turn my tape here. Hold on. All right. We are ready.
PVB (00:42:22):
I am an effective speaker. I have been a public speaker for 40 years, the sole reason I did not mount the police car to speak, was that I was on probation for an earlier civil rights arrest and I was operating in violation of my own probation order. If I had been photographed on top of that police car, and if that had gotten back to my probation officer, and the judge would sentence me to three years on probation, there is no doubt that he would have rescinded my probation and issued a warrant for my arrest, thrown me into jail.
SM (00:43:03):
I know, but when I interviewed Bettina, she said that was the time that she had never spoken before a large group like that before, but she said it gave her a lot of confidence. And she was not up there very long, but it just gave her a lot of confidence, and look she has gone on to become a great professor, so-
PVB (00:43:21):
No, it is true. I finally did speak the day of the mass arrests on the steps of Sproul Hall when were mobilizing for the strike. I got up and I took the microphone and I said, "We need to deploy students in front of this building and that building." And, to my astonishment, I spoke charismatically and people, they basically obeyed my suggestion, and I realized, at that moment, that I had the power to move people through my oratorical ability.
SM (00:43:56):
Wow, that is powerful. I know that Dr. Cohen at NYU has written a book on Mario Savio. I bought it when I was there, the day I interviewed Bettina, and I want to interview him, too. He is very busy.
PVB (00:44:10):
He is worth interviewing. I have read the book. It is very good.
SM (00:44:13):
Well, he never responded and finally he said, "Steve, I apologize. I have been inundated," three months after I sent my note. He said, "In the fall, when school starts, you can come in September and interview me," so I am going to do that. Final question on this, again, I may have asked this before, but what are the lessons, again, of the Free Speech Movement in your view? And what are some of the visible results of this action that you see on campuses today? In other words, what I want to know, I know how important it was, our students may not know the history of the free speech movement and how important it is for their rights on campus, but do you see the visible results at UCLA today and in other schools?
PVB (00:44:52):
A little bit. As a kind of indirect consequence of the Free Speech Movement, we were, as I indicated a few moments ago, able to make some curricular changes. If it had not been for the Free Speech Movement, we would not have an African-American studies and I would not be teaching African-American studies. But when I gave my own speech against the tuition hike, back in November at a mass rally on the UCLA campus, I said that when Mario Savio spoke on December 2nd, 1964 he said that there comes a time when the machine becomes so odious that you cannot take part. And I said, with today's prices at the university, it has become so odious, you cannot take part. And so, what I am hoping is that, especially with the repeated budget cuts and the organization of the university, that enough students will begin seeing that this is no education at all. So I am hopeful that there will be an increased student movement. I have no idea what is going to happen, but I would hope that with all of these kinds of cutbacks in education you will have a response from the student body at UCLA, the University of California and a number of places across the country.
SM (00:46:17):
There are some people, and I cannot name them, but I have read that they think that it is actually a conspiracy to keep students busy today by the fact that they all have to work, tuitions are rising, they have to work, they have no time to be involved in anything else on a regular basis. They join-
PVB (00:46:45):
It is a major problem.
SM (00:46:45):
...fraternities and sororities, so I do not get it.
PVB (00:46:45):
Yeah, it is a major problem. On the other hand, when my students moan and groan about that, I simply ask them and I say, "How much time do you waste on the computer? How much time do you waste on social networking sites?" I spent 30, 40, 50 hours a week as an undergraduate in the Civil Rights Movement. I also worked 15 to 20 hours a week, and in the last two years of my college career, I got mostly As. A lot of their complaints... I feel sorry for working class kids that really do have to do it, but for upper-middle class kids, who are getting parental subsidies, a lot of that is merely whining.
SM (00:47:28):
And there is data to prove that those students who are more involved in activities outside the classroom do better in school. They really do.
PVB (00:47:40):
The more I was involved in the Civil Rights Movement, the more hours I put in, the higher my grades got.
SM (00:47:44):
You are a living example of that. One of the things I was reading about, and you probably are very proud about it, in fact Paul mentioned in a little note to me, is that you are a rabble-rousing teacher.
PVB (00:48:00):
I put on a very lively show.
SM (00:48:00):
And what was it like being a teacher? Now, this is very important, and I have an example. What was it like being a teacher at Berkeley in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s and even going onto UCLA? And did you fear the university would purge you and other teachers for political activities beyond the classroom?
PVB (00:48:19):
Yes, I did, and they tried and I beat them back.
SM (00:48:20):
Hmm.
PVB (00:48:25):
I was first fired in... or attempted to be fired four years into my Berkeley career in 1972. It was a massive student movement. It became a matter of major Berkeley controversy, it became a matter of national controversy. I think it was 1972, the journalist Nicholas von Hoffman wrote a column about me. I beat him back, I beat him. And several other times when they... They have always used other pretexts, budget, change of direction.
SM (00:49:05):
Oh, yeah.
PVB (00:49:06):
Mind you, it has always been political and I have always beat them back.
SM (00:49:12):
Yeah, it is amazing the people that shut up are the ones that rise oftentimes. When I was at SUNY Binghamton in 1960... I think it was (19)68, a brand-new PhD came in from Berkeley, it was a sociology professor named Dr. Mahovsky, and I remember Mr. Lipschitz, one of the students in our class challenging him. There was going to be a protest against recruiters on campus, and he came into the classroom, the student, and he said, "Are you going to come with us?" And Dr. Mahovsky said, "No, I am teaching a class." And he said, "Well, jeez, did not you just graduate from Berkeley? You should be coming over. You are a professor. You should be coming over with us and sitting in the administration building. And we are going to get arrested, but..." And I will never forget this, he said, " I am no longer at Berkeley, I am no longer just a graduate student, I now am a professor, I have a wife, I have a child, I have to provide for them, I am not going to get involved in this." So I will never forget that.
PVB (00:50:17):
I have managed to get involved for 40 years and I am still around and in next March I will have been married for 40 years. In L.A. you get to be in the Guinness Book of Records for that.
SM (00:50:27):
Wow, that probably is. What do you think of Reagan's war on students, that law and order mentality?
PVB (00:50:35):
That is how he got to be governor. He ran against me and my fellow students and Berkeley in 1966. That is what catapulted him to Sacramento, and then that is what catapulted him, unfortunately, into The White House. Now, people who say if it were not for the Free Speech Movement he would not have gotten there, I am not apologizing for anything. We had to do the FSM. The fact that Reagan was able to be a demagogue and to do that is a sad reality, but I did not make it happen, so I have no regrets about being involved as an activist. If he had not done it, somebody else would have.
SM (00:51:18):
I think Ronald Reagan heard about Ed Meese at that time, because he was the assistant DA of-
PVB (00:51:23):
I remember Ed Meese. I used to watch him when I was a young faculty member. He was Ronald Reagan's kind of field general. It was Ed Meese who was directing the kind of ground operations on the Berkeley campus. It was Ed Meese who directed... he was involved in the activity of the People's Park.
SM (00:51:47):
Yes, in (19)69. Yes.
PVB (00:51:49):
And it was Meese who directed the helicopters that made the first bombing of an American campus.
SM (00:51:56):
I interviewed him.
PVB (00:51:56):
Of teargas.
SM (00:51:57):
I interviewed Mr. Meese. I had a chance to talk to him, it was mainly I wanted to talk to him about the years before he worked for President Reagan in The White House.
PVB (00:52:10):
He was the prosecutor of the Free Speech Movement defendants.
SM (00:52:14):
Mm-hmm. Were you aware of any universities firing professors or purging so-called radical students from their campuses or any campuses in the late (19)60s and (19)70s?
PVB (00:52:23):
They were doing it, they are still doing it.
SM (00:52:23):
Because I know that, my first job was at Ohio University and they supposedly purged a lot of the students from the east off of that campus.
PVB (00:52:37):
I mean, they do not do it with quite the drama, but you have these events. I mean, you have these academic freedom cases every year. At Colorado, they got rid of Ward Churchill. I am no great fan, I must say, of Ward Churchill. I have signed all the petitions, because I think it was a pretty egregious violation of his academic freedom. I am not a great fan of the scholarship, but that notwithstanding, clearly, he was a victim of political persecution. At Bard College, President Botstein has fired Joel Kovel.
SM (00:53:16):
Oh, yeah. I remember hearing about that.
PVB (00:53:21):
And I think that is troublesome. I do not know all the details of that case, so I mean this kind of thing goes on and on and, as I said, when I have been the victim of that, I fought back. I mean, I have been fortunate that the nature of my teaching is such that I am always able to generate a huge amount of support from my student population, including, I might add, conservative students. I make clear my own leftist point of view, but my conservative students can speak any time they want and I will listen to them. I will not agree with them, but they are always open to say whatever they want in my classes.
SM (00:54:04):
Well, access to higher education is a major development in higher education during the (19)60s and (19)70s. And so, the boomer generation, like the GI Bill and the World War II generation really increased the numbers on college campuses never before. With access, including all ethnic groups, what new issues arose in your view, what were they in your eyes?
PVB (00:54:32):
Well, [inaudible] students, I mean, they were obviously... I mean, I think this is a good thing, but I would like to make higher education more accessible to larger numbers of people. One of the good things until there was a backlash for things like Proposition 209 is that we had increasing numbers of people of color, and they were obviously interested in learning more about their own tradition. Increasing numbers, especially in a place like California, for example, you had an increasing number of students of Latino cultures, and so that was good, it was a valuable thing for the curriculum. On the other hand, you still had a lot of students much more narrowly focused on job markets and more technical skills that would equip them for entry level jobs, and I think that that was short-sighted, as I talked about a couple minutes ago.
SM (00:55:32):
Being a lawyer, how important was the Bakke decision? I know that was at UC Davis and that was in the late (19)70s. That seemed to be an historic case.
PVB (00:55:44):
Well, it is interesting. I mean, in retrospect, I mean, nobody really liked the Bakke decision when it came down, but in retrospect, we would kind of like to have it now, because at least it will allow the use of race. It allowed Allan Bakke to go to medical school, I think at Davis.
SM (00:56:02):
Mm-hmm, yes.
PVB (00:56:04):
But now, I mean, it is hard to get to anybody. It has been a long time since I read the Bakke decision, but as I remember, the court said you have to let Allan Bakke in, but you can still use race as a legitimate consideration in making admission determination. So if we could go back to the Bakke decision, we would ironically be better off.
SM (00:56:29):
A lot of people did not realize it, and it was not really brought up, but he was a Vietnam veteran, too.
PVB (00:56:35):
I know it.
SM (00:56:36):
And the other thing, too, is what we also saw that is interesting in college campuses in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, is the many Vietnam veterans coming on campuses and the discrimination that they were facing. In fact, they were actually put into affirmative action plans back at that time.
PVB (00:56:53):
Yeah, I remember that. At Berkeley, we had a few. I did not have a lot of Vietnam vets at Berkeley. And even now at UCLA I get a couple of veterans. It is not a huge percentage. In California, I would think that a much larger number of the military veterans probably go to the California State University system.
SM (00:57:20):
Right. Would you say, and this is just my perception that another big issue from the (19)60s and (19)70s, as a result of student protests and certainly with what happened at Kent State is the issue of who can and cannot come on campus with respect to police. That was a big issue when I was at Ohio State University as a grad student. And we had legal aspects in higher education classes and these were some of the biggest discussions we ever had, is who can and cannot come on campus.
PVB (00:57:55):
It remains an issue. Kind of piggybacking on what I talked about earlier, they are very-very careful about bringing large scale police presences on campus these days, because it inflames students. They try to defuse incidents, but we have had them. I mean, even last November when we had the demonstration against the tuition increases, they brought in a huge contingent of California Highway Patrol. And then, it inflamed student population, so they... There is no doubt at a public university campus, I mean, they have the right to come to campus. The issue is not whether they have the legal right, but the propriety and the wisdom of bringing them on.
SM (00:58:53):
I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly and I know David Horowitz has also said this in his books, that the troublemakers of the (19)60s and the (19)70s now run today's universities. And then, they comment they run the women's studies departments, Black studies, gay and lesbian studies, Native American studies, Chicano studies, environmental studies. Your response?
PVB (00:59:17):
I think that is moronic. There is a need for all of these studies. These are whole areas that were historically neglected. David Horowitz is his own... In both cases, you really have to look at the sources. Phyllis Schlafly is an old-time reactionary, and extraordinarily difficult to take her seriously. David Horowitz is another interesting guy. I do not want to psychoanalyze him, but the temptation to do so is almost irresistible, coming as he does as a red diaper baby, who is trying to, basically, exorcise the ghost of his left-wing past. But on the merits, he is wrong. On the substantive merits, he is absolutely wrong. When you look at things like African-American studies and Chicano studies and you look over the past 35 or 40 years, there is an impressive body of scholarship and teaching that stands extraordinarily well on its merits. Now, it is absolutely the case that in the ethnic studies and women's studies curriculum, they are going to point out the existence of racism and sexism, because they exist. And that people who spend their time in scholarly investigation looking at race are going to discover racism, and those people who spend their scholarly lives dealing with gender, are going to discover sexism as an institutional component of American life. Mr. Horowitz does not want to acknowledge that, but that is his intellectual deficiency.
SM (01:01:17):
See, I interviewed Michelle Easton from the Clare Boothe Luce Institute, a conservative female, and she kind of agrees with that, as well. And she says, in some of these courses, women's studies, that they are never going to teach about Phyllis Schlafly, they are never going to teach about Clare Boothe Luce, they are never going to talk about conservative women. I made a comment earlier, they are doing exactly the same things that they complained about when they were students back in the (19)60s or (19)70s or whatever, so-
PVB (01:01:52):
I do not think they are. I think it is perfectly appropriate to teach about Clare Booth Luce, she was an important journalist, she was a congresswoman. I think you want to talk- She was a congresswoman. I think you want to talk about people who made a significant contribution, that would by definition eliminate Phyllis Schlafly, she is not an important figure.
SM (01:02:14):
Some people will say she is, because she single-handedly defeated the ERA.
PVB (01:02:19):
Yeah, I know. But, in the scheme of American and [inaudible] important figure. These are intellectual judgements we have.
SM (01:02:28):
Right. The problems we have just, I got a lot of questions here and you are doing great, because you are one of the first, along with Dr. Chickering and one other person, really talking about higher ed, which is important, because it is such an important part of the lives of Boomers and in that period. The problems that we have in America today, go back to the (19)60s and (19)70s. I say this, because in 1994, if you remember when Newt Gingrich came into power, he made some commentaries about that period of the (19)60s and (19)70s as to the reasons why America's in the shape it is in and he was referring to negative shape.
PVB (01:03:10):
Of course.
SM (01:03:10):
George Will, oftentimes lights to in his commentaries, take jabs back to that period. Even today, and I do not even watch Fox News, but I hear that former Governor Huckabee is constantly making comments, as is Glenn Beck and Hannity about general commentaries about that particular era in history and how it is negatively affected our society and still does today.
PVB (01:03:37):
There is absolutely no doubt that the (19)60s was a cultural and political and emotional divide. George Will is a thoughtful, intelligent guy. I disagree with virtually everything he says, although I like his writings on baseball. Very political. Glenn Beck is a comedian and is not worth talking about, because he is not a serious intellectual. Gingrich is an interesting, problematic person in his own right. He is not stupid. Beck is just an entertainer and he is real. We do make intellectual judgements, but let me talk about the deeper issue. The (19)60s was a profound divide. It changed our consciousness of America. There were a lot of people who wanted America to be what it was before then a Baskin for white middle class people with a deeply institutionalized sexism and racism. That was the America that they liked. That was the America that gave them the privileges that they enjoyed. And that was the America that we took on. That was the America that they enjoyed with Dwight Eisenhower. But the Eisenhower administration favored the wealthy. It was contemptuous of racial discord and it was contemptuous of the rights of women. And the (19)60s challenged all of that and I believe properly so.
SM (01:05:12):
Excellent response. When you look at the boomer generation, it is anywhere between 74 and 78 million people. In fact, I just read an article that boomers can no longer say they are the largest generation in American history. There are now more millennials than there ever were boomers.
PVB (01:05:32):
Yes. That is not surprising.
SM (01:05:35):
And because boomers, the most would be 78 million, we are already over 80 million for the millennials. But what I am getting at here is when you look at this boomer generation and you think of the boomers that you knew in many different capacities, and when I say boomers, I do not like to, some people have had some difficulty with the timeframes here, because I know from all the people I have interviewed that those that were born between 1940 and 1946, a lot of them feel they are boomers in the way they think and the way they act. You are dividing me from somebody else who is only two years younger than me. Come on. So I know what I am asking really is what do you think were some of the good qualities and bad qualities about the generation? Some people will not even answer this question, because I think it is too general.
PVB (01:06:31):
I mean, a lot of the people, I mean, I am right before the technical beginning of the boomers and a lot of the people came right after really were fundamentally part of (19)60s activist generation and for all of the flaws, and there were many, and for all of the kind of shrillness and the irrationality, it still made a major moral difference. It was people like that who were the foot soldiers in the most making the major moral transformation of our society, which was the civil rights movement. It was people of that generation, people of my age, people born right before (19)46 and right after, who were the foot soldiers who took to the street and who supplied the bodies in the most important moral crusade of the 20th century, the American Civil Rights Movement. So for that minority of that generation, without being chronologically precise, that minority of that age group performed a service for which America ought to be grateful for centuries to come. My view.
SM (01:07:47):
Could you list some of the contributions in your eyes at the boomer generations, its members? In society as a whole, both good and bad?
PVB (01:07:55):
Yeah, it is that minority that had a vision of morality and social justice that carried forth. It is that vision that has allowed people of color to live in this country with assemblance of humanity and dignity and which among other things, shortly after the highlight of that, that helped to end a grotesque war in Southeast Asia. The wrong side of the boomers, and again, without being chronologically rigid, is that many of those people fell all too easily into Reaganism, which may seems to be the worst example with the Reagan administration. It institutionalized selfishness, [inaudible], if I can point a word, where it said that, what is in it for me and to hell with everybody else. So the other side of that generation seemed to me to institutionalize a vision that all we care about is our own advancement, usually financial advancement and the hell with the welfare of the rest of the American population, really the hell with the rest of the human population. So it had the best and the worst.
SM (01:09:27):
That is kind of the Christopher-
PVB (01:09:27):
The latter is more than the former.
SM (01:09:32):
That is kind of that Christopher Lash talks about in the culture of narcissism. Yeah. I see there is a Bruin Alumni Association that is not an affiliate one that has a web page-
PVB (01:09:43):
No, it has nothing to do with the Alumni Association.
SM (01:09:45):
It talks about dangerous professors on campus.
PVB (01:09:45):
Yes.
SM (01:09:51):
And you are on that list.
PVB (01:09:52):
I am only on number 21. When that came out, I went to my students and I said that I regret profoundly that I did so poorly in the rankings. I had several months to see if I could elevate.
SM (01:10:06):
That is kind of the what a lot of people said when they were on Nixon's enemies list.
PVB (01:10:10):
Yes.
SM (01:10:13):
Some people said, "Wow, geez, I am hurt, because I am not on it."
PVB (01:10:16):
Right. The day that came out, I was teaching a very large class. I got a standing ovation.
SM (01:10:24):
Do you compare this at all, even in a small way, to the witch hunts by [inaudible] in the late (19)40s and (19)50s and looking at communists, McCarthyism in the (19)50s, attacks on the new left liberals, the Hollywood 10. Do you see even in the small way, a continuation-
PVB (01:10:50):
Yes, but in a very small way. Strictly minor league SD.
SM (01:10:56):
Right.
PVB (01:10:57):
Major league stuff. Strictly Bush League.
SM (01:11:01):
The new right really came to power in kind of the mid to late (19)70s in reaction to the new left and liberal groups active in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the rise of Reagan was part of that, because the concepts of law and order, he did not want a welfare state. The kind of mentality where you lift yourself up by your own bootstraps and do not concentrate on the government.
PVB (01:11:27):
...yourself up by your bootstraps and also predisposes that you have boots.
SM (01:11:31):
Right. Good point. What are your thoughts on that rise of the right?
PVB (01:11:38):
I see that as a consequence of the cult. I see that as a consequence of Reaganism. For all of Ronald Reagan's crack pot economics, the more pernicious dimension of the Reagan era was the cultural consequence of selfishness, of narcissism, of this kind of contemptuous disregard of the marginalized population. It was Ronald Reagan, for example, who opened up the mental institution in California. It was Ronald Reagan who basically maligned for my view of any society is that the, well, the moral quality of any society is the way in which you treat the most disadvantaged. And the way America treats its most disadvantaged, it remains appalling to me.
SM (01:12:31):
Well, I know religious leaders became a very important part of this, whether it be Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell or Dobson. But when you see a Ralph Reed who has a PhD in history, who is so smart, I mean there were a lot of boomers who were part of this.
PVB (01:12:53):
I am sure. And they could always find people who can use the gospel. I mean, look, I am not religious. I mean, I come from a secular Jewish background, so I have no particular vision about the Christians whom I admire are people like Dr. King.
SM (01:13:16):
Right.
PVB (01:13:17):
For whom theology works for the betterment of the human condition and for people like Robertson and Buck [inaudible] and Reed, frankly, it strikes me that they are using theology as a cover for retrograde [inaudible]
SM (01:13:37):
Two religious leaders that seen, even though Billy Graham seems to be across a lot of currents and so does Father Sheen, the Catholic Church, they seem to be a little different, would not you say?
PVB (01:13:51):
Well, you mean Fulton Sheen?
SM (01:13:53):
Fulton Sheen, yes.
PVB (01:13:54):
Yeah. That goes back to the (19)50s.
SM (01:13:57):
Right. That is still part of boomers. When they were young, they saw these and-
PVB (01:14:00):
No, I used to watch them on television. I do not remember very much. He used to give these [inaudible] on television as a kid. I do not remember them specifically. Billy Graham has been around forever. I am no great fan of Billy Graham. I do not find him as reactionary as some of the other ones. But on the other hand, his palling around with all president will strike me is a bit of hollow.
SM (01:14:29):
Except Jimmy Carter for some reason.
PVB (01:14:31):
Yeah, no, I mean, but they share the born again vision. So there is not...
SM (01:14:39):
From your own life experiences and your knowledge of history through reading, describe what the following time periods mean to you. Since all these periods were at times when boomers have been alive and helped shape them and their multiple views on life. I have asked this to the last 50 some people that I have interviewed, and it has been very interesting what they say. This is just, when you look at this timeframe, what does this timeframe mean to you as a person, and what do you think it means to the generation that was growing up at the time and the period, 1946 to 1960?
PVB (01:15:18):
I found the, well that is basically 1946 to 1960, is the (19)50s, and I found that repressive. I have very vivid recollection. I remember the witch hunts. I was talking to my students yesterday. I teach at the summer course and I am using George Clooney's goodnight and good luck about Edward [inaudible], whom nobody had ever heard of until I mentioned. And I remember the Army McCarthy hearings, I remember the malevolent gaze of Joe McCarthy and his detestable sidekick, Roy Cohen. I remember the less than pleasant days of the Eisenhower administration. So I have very negative feelings about the (19)50s. I actually wrote an article many, many years ago about the (19)50s called Not So Happy Days, the Politics and Culture of the (19)50s. So I have very negative views, because it seemed to me that it was not happy if you were African American or poor or a woman, a variety of other people on the periphery of society.
SM (01:16:28):
What did you think of the TV of the (19)50s? Because when I think of the (19)50s, I think of Howdy Doody. I think of the Musketeers, Mickey Mouse Club. I think of Walt Disney, Ed Sullivan Show, a lot of comedy sitcoms, half hour shows, a lot of-
PVB (01:16:48):
I remember Westerns. I grew up in a very politically conscious and very politically critical family. So I was imbued with that. The only thing that I liked on television in the (19)50s was sports, baseball, football.
SM (01:17:04):
How about the period 1961 to 1970?
PVB (01:17:08):
I love the (19)50s and I am critical of its excesses, and I am critical of those people who said that they were involved in the (19)60s when they were young, and now they have matured and become mature. I think that is nonsensical. I am an unapologetic defender of (19)60s activism is pretty heard so far. Now, I think the (19)60s were one of the moral highlights of a relatively recent American history, especially the civil rights struggle, and especially the proceed to end what I think to be a monstrous war in Vietnam.
SM (01:17:50):
The period 1971 to 1980.
PVB (01:17:53):
Well, there was still a lot of activism in the early part of the (19)70s, and I supported that. I knew many of the people as the civil rights movement, for example, transformed from the kind of nonviolent civil rights movement to Black power. I understand that. And I was actually very supportive of the Black Power Movement. I retained a lot of associates and friendships with people who were involved in Black power, and I think that was very important. And in the early part of the decade, the anti-war movement accelerated. The war of Vietnam did not end until Gerald Ford withdrew American forces in 1975. So the first part of that was still part of the (19)60s. The latter part coincided with a much more passive era. Even though Jimmy Carter was president, it was moving toward the kind of passivity and narcissism of the Reagan era. My vision of the latter part of the Sotheby's becomes much more critical.
SM (01:18:59):
Yeah. Let me go right into that, 1981 to 1990.
PVB (01:19:03):
Not a particularly pleasant time. I mean, that was the era of Reagan, and that was the time where Reagan used his sometimes a very persuasive to communication power to malign and disparage. Before that was when he was utterly indifferent, for example, to people with aids. Not a pleasant time in our national history. And I am confident that few historians who validate my vision.
SM (01:19:37):
How about 1991 to 2000?
PVB (01:19:39):
And I think it continued. I am not, I mean on some levels things got a little better with Bill Clinton, but I am no Clinton fan.
SM (01:19:52):
Is there anything that stands out in that (19)90s that...
PVB (01:19:55):
No. I think on some levels, domestically things got a little better, but Clinton really continued the same irrational Cold War policies that actually were initiated under Eisenhower. I did not like his foreign policy adventures. I did not actually, this has to be apart from a lot of my colleagues on the left. I did not like his personal immorality.
SM (01:20:22):
And the one thing, he seemed to be very close to African-Americans, though.
PVB (01:20:30):
That is the popular view. I dissent when people said that he was the first Black president. His actual policies seems to me worked against the interest of the African-American population. I think he was particularly good with his rhetoric, but there is an enormous gap between his rhetoric and the day-to-day policies.
SM (01:20:53):
Where is this gap?
PVB (01:20:55):
No, I am not a Bill Clinton fan. I do not like what he stands for. I think that basically the Clinton influence in American life is a negative one. And I am in the minority on the left on this.
SM (01:21:10):
Where was that gap you mentioned? You can give an example of the gap?
PVB (01:21:13):
Yeah. He cut welfare payments, which I would not do, but I am unambiguously in favor of Democratic socialism still.
SM (01:21:25):
How about if-
PVB (01:21:25):
I was in Washington DC, I had about a 10-minute conversation with Ralph Nader, whom I like enormously. He would be worth interviewing, if you can get to him.
SM (01:21:39):
He is a tough man. He is never around.
PVB (01:21:39):
I know.
SM (01:21:41):
The last one of course is 2001 to 2010.
PVB (01:21:45):
Well, we will see. We will see. I mean, the Bush arm was grotesque. I mean, the worst president, arguably one of the worst presidents in our national history.
SM (01:22:02):
Let me change my tape here. Hold on. Very good.
PVB (01:22:09):
An absolutely horrible president, a horrible administration. A disaster will take generations to recover from his grotesque adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan.
SM (01:22:23):
What about Barack Obama? Just your first-
PVB (01:22:25):
See, I am increasingly disappointed with Obama.
SM (01:22:32):
So the judgment is out on him. It is too early, so to speak.
PVB (01:22:37):
It is still too early, but I am not happy with the trajectory. I would like him to be much more vigorous. A lot of people in the left, feel that way. I am hardly unusual.
SM (01:22:47):
Would you say that if you talk about this 10 years between 2001, 2010, it is all about 911? It is terrorism? That is the-
PVB (01:22:55):
Yeah, I mean, there is no doubt. I mean, 911 was horrible. No humane human being can say anything other than that. It was horrible. I mean, Al-Qaeda and their operatives are mass murderers. Nobody could defend that, indefensible. And if somebody were to capture and kill Bin Laden, I would be perfectly ecstatic. But look at what has happened. There was this kind of hysteria about terrorism that can have catastrophic consequences for civil liberties. I mean, in the wake of 911, we passed this grotesque Patriot Act. Horrifying, in my view, as a civil libertarian.
SM (01:23:41):
Did you experience the generation gap in your family between your parents and yourself or any of your brothers and sisters? Was there any-
PVB (01:23:52):
Not really.
SM (01:23:52):
Did you witness the generation gap amongst any of your peers and their family?
PVB (01:23:56):
Not especially. I am the oldest of five. There is a 19-year difference between me and my youngest sister. We are all politically progressive, although I have always been the most active, and maybe that is the first child syndrome. I have always been the most verbal.
SM (01:24:15):
Did you see that there was the generation gap between the World War II generation and the boomers?
PVB (01:24:21):
Yeah, I respect the World War II generation, but I do not romanticize them. I think [inaudible] broke laws rhetoric about the greatest generation is overblown.
SM (01:24:35):
Some people have also said that we concentrate too much on the generation gap and the battles between parents and children. But we do not talk about the generation gap within the generation, which is between those who went to Vietnam or served in the military during this timeframe and those who evaded the draft.
PVB (01:24:57):
Yeah, there was that. And I regard myself as a Vietnam vet. I fought the war. I would not have served in Vietnam. I think it was a grotesque score. I got a high draft number. So I was lucky I would not have fought that war. It was monstrous. Whenever I go to the Vietnam wall in Washington, and I certainly empathize with the people who lost relatives, and it is very touching and very moving to see that. But it is a horrible war. I would not demonize people who went and I would not spit on them or call them baby killer. But we should not have fought that war. We should not have fought in Iraq and should pull out of Afghanistan.
SM (01:25:43):
James Fallows-
PVB (01:25:44):
Very much, I mean, my views, they are minority views. Not North Vietnam, but certainly with Afghanistan. But large numbers of Americans feel the same way that I do.
SM (01:25:57):
Yeah. James Fallows has written years back, the writer for Atlantic Monthly, that he was in Harvard at the time, that he feels real guilty and has been honest about evading the draft and not protesting the draft, because a lot of those students evaded the draft, but put no effort into protesting against the war. And so there is some lot of issues there. So do you see any different-
PVB (01:26:24):
I have no such issues. I would not have fought in that warrant. I protested it.
SM (01:26:28):
Were your thoughts on those who went to Canada?
PVB (01:26:31):
I understand it. I would not have done that. I am an American. I belong here. I was born here. I have lived here. I am critical of my country. Therefore, I want to work assiduously to try to change it.
SM (01:26:48):
Yeah. I think Dr. King used to always say that if you need to not worry about being arrested when you protest, because that is part of the game, and those people, that is the nonviolent protest.
PVB (01:27:02):
Right.
SM (01:27:02):
And he always stressed that. And so those who did alternative service and did not go to Canada and some went to jail, like David Harris.
PVB (01:27:12):
Exactly.
SM (01:27:13):
And served time. Those people seemed to be admired more. Those who did alternative service and went to jail and then those who evaded the draft or went to Canada.
PVB (01:27:24):
Or who, I mean, I am in a different category. I fought the war in Vietnam from the time of the Gulf of [inaudible] in summer of 1954 until the final withdrawal in 1975. I was always outspoken against the war, 11 years.
SM (01:27:46):
Well then you are part of that then. In your opinion, what is the major event or happening that shaped the entire generation of 74 million? Is there one event that you think shaped it more than any other?
PVB (01:28:00):
There is too many. I do not think historically you can name one. I mean, obviously young people today in college, they all remember 911. But look, I remember, everybody remembers where they were when Kennedy was assassinated. But that could be overblown. It is too simplistic. It is really a complex of events that give rise of the ones individual events can help you locate a conscious, but it is individual psychology and human history are more complex.
SM (01:28:40):
We are is a follow-up. Maybe you will have the same answer. When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes and when did it end?
PVB (01:28:47):
The (19)60s began, I do a course in this and I date it on December 1st 1955 when Rosa Parks got arrested, or you could date it on May 17th 1954 when the Supreme Court handed down Brown v Board of Education. And it ended largely when President Ford withdrew the troops in Vietnam. So somewhere in the mid-(19)50s to the mid-(19)70s.
SM (01:29:18):
Wow. April 30th 1975.
PVB (01:29:20):
Yep. So around then.
SM (01:29:22):
Do you think this-
PVB (01:29:25):
Basically 20 years.
SM (01:29:26):
This may be a repeat of the earlier question, but was there a watershed moment or you just cannot say?
PVB (01:29:31):
I cannot really say. There were too many events and I was involved in too many of them.
SM (01:29:38):
Do you think a quality that this generation has is a quality that they do not trust?
PVB (01:29:46):
Hard to know. I mean, one of the things that I am sad to say it that I see among my own students is a reluctance to take risks. And I am bothered by that. Even at the interpersonal level. I see too many young people, some of who are kind of reluctant to do anything that would be risky. They are afraid of the consequences. And I sometimes looked and said, my god's going to be afraid to do it at 21. What the hell are you going to be like at 40?
SM (01:30:22):
Right. Do you feel that the issue of trust is an issue within the boomer generation that has a lack of trust in leaders? Because so many lied to the boomers as they were growing up, and they were given lies in terms of why we got involved in Vietnam. We had the Watergate-
PVB (01:30:42):
They say that. I hear that a lot. I wonder however, whether there is so much of that is just a rhetorical cover. I am not sure how deep that really goes. I mean, every generation gets lied to. Political leaders always lied, endemic of the operations.
SM (01:31:10):
Would in response... I do a follow-up to this question. That is, when you think of a lack of trust, you really think of liberty and the definition of liberty. That was a political science major and well and history major. And one of the first thing things you learn in political science is that trust and lack of trust is a very positive quality in a democracy, because that means you do not trust your government, keeps them on their toes. And the dissent is alive and well in a democracy. Do you agree with that?
PVB (01:31:38):
No, that is good. I mean, one ought to be skeptical. But one ought to be skeptical when people say they are doing it for your own good. And you should say, show me that it is for my own good. Explain that further. Now I have, as a teacher, my job is to try to tell my students or urge them to be a lot more skeptical of authority wherever they encounter it. At home, at school, at both at the micro and macro level politically. Democracy requires skepticism.
SM (01:32:19):
Where were you when you heard President Kennedy was assassinated? Do you remember the exact moment?
PVB (01:32:25):
Yeah, I was an undergraduate. I was just kind of walking and somebody said, they said like many other people, I did not believe it, until actually until everybody started buzzing about it.
SM (01:32:39):
Were you at the Berkeley campus?
PVB (01:32:40):
No, I was in San Diego. I went as an undergraduate at San Diego State.
SM (01:32:46):
So you heard of it just walking across campus?
PVB (01:32:48):
I was on campus. It was between classes.
SM (01:32:51):
And did you go to-
PVB (01:32:55):
I remember sitting down with a friend, we were kind of joking about something, having nothing to do with that. And some professor-
PVB (01:33:03):
...about something having nothing to do with that. And some professor came and started ... gave us a really dirty look. And I could not figure out why the hell was he this off with us, but I had not heard anything. We were outside. We had no, people were not wired up. And [inaudible] 63.
SM (01:33:18):
Did you?
PVB (01:33:23):
I think he was pissed off that we were joking, but we did not know anything. I would not joke about something like that.
SM (01:33:29):
Did your class continue or was it canceled?
PVB (01:33:33):
I think it was canceled.
SM (01:33:35):
And were you like many that just watched TV all weekend or?
PVB (01:33:40):
Yeah, I watched it. I watched it all the way through. I watched it incessantly. I watched Oswald being assassinated by Jack Ruby.
SM (01:33:46):
Yep. And you probably remember the announcers.
PVB (01:33:51):
Yep.
SM (01:33:52):
Tom Petit.
PVB (01:33:54):
Yep.
SM (01:33:54):
And Ike Pappas.
PVB (01:33:56):
Yep.
SM (01:33:58):
They have both passed on now. But those are the ones, NBC and CBS.
PVB (01:34:03):
It was incredible.
SM (01:34:04):
Yeah. Another important question here. Do you mind if we go over a couple minutes here? Because we are going over? Sure. Because I got, I have got the civil rights questions here. But this is a question I have asked everyone, all 170 people, a question that our students came up with when we took a trip to Washington DC in the mid (19)90s to see Senator Edmund Muskie. We had a leadership on the road program through Gaylord Nelson from Wisconsin, and we set up about nine meetings with senators, and this was our last one. And he was not very well. He had just gotten out of the hospital. And the question the students came up with, because they knew that he was the vice president of candidate in 1968 when all that terrible thing happened there and all those tragedies, assassinations that year. So they wanted to know, number one, were we close to a, they wanted to ask him, were we close to a second civil war in 1968 due to all the divisions? And secondly, do you feel that because of all the divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war and against the war, those who supported the troops or against the troops, and they brought in all the burnings of the cities in the (19)60s, and Watts and the burnings after Dr. King died and the assassinations. Do you think that this generation, because of all these terrible things, is going to go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? And so they wanted a response from him, I will tell you his response after I hear yours.
PVB (01:35:44):
No, we were never close to a civil war. The Civil War was really a major division about states’ rights and slavery. We were in a period of great turmoil and tension, but nothing qualitatively similar civil war. But many of the tensions remain unresolved. I mean, I still think that many of the tensions that existed forty-something years ago remain. We still have racism, we still have sexism. I am extremely close to the African-American community, and I know definitively that they still see racism very pervasively in American society, notwithstanding that Barack Obama is black. And a lot of these tensions are going to remain unresolved. And a lot of people, especially the generation before me, are going to die with a lot of unresolved issues. And I am not sure that they will be resolved in my own lifetime. But it is not a civil war, and it never was, was not even close.
SM (01:36:54):
Do you think that there is a problem with healing within any segment of the boomer generation or as a whole?
PVB (01:37:08):
Yeah, but it is not... I mean, time heals. Time itself works. I mean, it has an effect though, on the rougher edges, but I am not sure. I do not want a cheap healing and I do not want closure, and I do not want healing unless there is resolution and resolution in certain directions. I do not want healing without... I do not want to heal unless the underlying issues are resolved. I do not want to heal if there is still racism or there is still sexism or homophobia. I do not want to play kumbaya if we still have these problems. I would rather have tension and discord.
SM (01:37:57):
That is an excellent response because Senator Muskie did not even respond about 1968. He mentioned nothing in his reply. It was simple and direct. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War because we have not healed over the issue of race." And then he went on to describe the North and the South and all the divisions, and that is all he said. And he did not even mention... and he had just seen the Civil War series on TV in the hospital, the Ken Burns series, and he said, "Ask yourself this, young people. Almost 430, 000 people, men, died in that war. Almost an entire generation was wiped out in the south." So ask yourself, the issue of race. He said that... he actually had tears in his eyes when he was talking to us. He had said nothing about the (19)60s. So that is how he responded. What has the wall done, in your opinion? Have you been there? You already said you have. What was the first response to the black granite wall about a mile in? What came to mind when you first saw it [inaudible]
PVB (01:39:03):
Oh, I have seen it a dozen times. It is tremendously moving. What makes it such a remarkable piece of public art is that it allows people of both sides, the protagonists who fought in Vietnam and people who fought against the entire war like me, to stand in the same space and to share their... well, not to share, but to experience their own private emotion. I mean, the people who lost people, you can see them rub the names. But people like me stand there and I see the 58,000 and odd names of people, and I think what a tragic, tragic waste.
SM (01:39:46):
See, I think maybe I should have rephrased the question. I have said this to other people when I talked about healing, is really... has the healing truly happened between those who went to war in Vietnam and those who were the anti-war movement?
PVB (01:40:00):
Probably not. But I think the edges are off as we have gotten older. But I really think that the issue, I agree with Senator Muskie, the issue of race is a deeper divide. When Dr. Dubois in 1903 wrote that race is the defining issue of the 20th century, it remains so.
SM (01:40:24):
I know Jan Scruggs, the founder of the Wall, wrote that book To Heal a Nation, which you probably read because he wanted to heal the veterans. And I know it has done a great job for the veterans and their families, which was...
PVB (01:40:36):
It is very important for them.
SM (01:40:37):
But they still have a lot of healing to do. You just see when you go to the wall.
PVB (01:40:39):
There is no doubt.
SM (01:40:41):
But he wanted to heal the nation. So I do not know if that that is going to be possible by...
PVB (01:40:46):
It is not going to be possible. I think the edge is off, but it is not going to heal. Life does not work that way. And I do not know that healing is in the way in which that is expresses ability [inaudible] desirable.
SM (01:41:03):
You are a scholar and you have obviously not only written great books, but you have read great books. What are the books that most influenced you as a scholar, as a thinker? People that have written books that you may have read in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, or even through today that are truly inspirational?
PVB (01:41:29):
I have read so much, and I mean, I think about that, but I have... at this juncture of my life, I have read so much. I mean, there are books that are profoundly influential. I just got done teaching Camus' The Plague, which is to me tremendously influential, it is a novel of resistance. And if there is any word that I would summarize what I have tried to do with my, not just my adult life, but with my life in general, it is resistance. It is to resist what is wrong, to resist illegitimate authority. And Camus' novel is a novel of resistance, and I have taken that to heart. I read that as a young undergraduate and I have taught it for 35 years. And I keep changing my reading list, I have been doing that for 42 years. That is the really the only major exception. It has been a constant.
SM (01:42:32):
Well, that is good. Because you-
PVB (01:42:33):
I never tire of it.
SM (01:42:35):
Hey, you are changing it around. You are not doing the same thing every year. That is good.
PVB (01:42:38):
No, I change it all the time, but not that, I weave that in somewhere kind of once a year and I never tire of it. And the students never tire of it.
SM (01:42:47):
Two books that I really liked when I was in grad school, and again, I had interviewed Daniel Bell, so he is 92 years old, I was lucky to get an hour with him. But Bell, I mentioned these two books, The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak.
PVB (01:43:03):
I used to kind of informally debate Roszak.
SM (01:43:07):
Yeah well that was, well, I tried to get him to be interviewed, but he was not well, he is not well now, so.
PVB (01:43:13):
He has got to be in his seventies.
SM (01:43:15):
Yeah, he is retired and I do not know if he is fighting cancer. I do not know what it is, but I just know he is not well, and he said he did not have the energy to talk for a half hour on the phone. And the other one was Charles Reich's The Greening of America. I do not know if you know it.
PVB (01:43:31):
Oh, that was all part of the whole counter culture.
SM (01:43:33):
Right.
PVB (01:43:34):
Yeah, I remember all that. That was big at a particular moment.
SM (01:43:39):
And Erickson wrote some great books too. And Kenneth Keniston and yeah.
PVB (01:43:44):
Exactly. What is Charlie Reich doing these days, is he still around?
SM (01:43:48):
My understanding is he is like disappeared. He left, I guess he left Yale a long time ago. Lives in the Bay Area. I guess he is, hibernating. I do not know. He is just like doing nothing. I guess he is retired and I do not know what he is doing.
PVB (01:44:03):
Yeah, he would be in his seventies as well.
SM (01:44:05):
Yeah. Now this is the area that I think you will have the greatest enjoyment in responding, because actually what is interesting, you do not know anything about me, but African American history and issues dealing with African Americans is the center core of my life as well. You are a senior lecturer of African-American studies at UCLA, and you understand the history and the culture of the civil rights and civil liberties. Could you comment on these African-American leaders that were important during the lives of Boomers? And I got a list here, you may have others, but these can just be brief comments on people. My advisor was Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, who was my graduate school advisor at Ohio State. And you can go on the web, see Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, he has a big practice in just outside Washington DC. But he was a great inspiration and he brought us into prisons and got us involved in issues dealing with African Americans. It is just like, and I have been reading ever since, and Dr. King is my hero, and in many respects. First person to respond, just a few comments on Malcolm X.
PVB (01:45:18):
I am an enormous admirer of Malcolm X, especially near the end of his life, that remarkable transformation when he moved from a more narrow based Islamic identity with the nation of Islam into a much more, much broader vision of humankind. I think his assassination in 1965 was a horrible tragedy. I liked his vision of universal human brotherhood and black militancy, which he was able to fuse tremendously.
SM (01:45:53):
But do you believe that when he has had that slogan by any means necessary, did he mean violence?
PVB (01:45:59):
If necessary, I have no problem, I am not a pacifist, so I think that appropriately conceived the violent response can be legitimate. Nelson Mandela realized that during the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa, when with some reluctance, he decided that they had no choice except to move to the armed struggle.
SM (01:46:20):
I know Malcolm had a big debate with Bayard Rustin on that.
PVB (01:46:25):
I am an admirer of Bayard Rustin, but I am not a pacifist. Bayard Rustin was. He was an official, the fellowship of reconciliation.
SM (01:46:34):
And he is from Westchester, right where I live.
PVB (01:46:37):
Yeah. Now he is a very important figure. My students have never heard of him.
SM (01:46:42):
Dr. King and Mrs. King. I want to include both of them.
PVB (01:46:45):
Yeah. They were tremendous. I mean, arguably Martin Luther King is one of the great human beings of the millennium. I mean, there is no doubt. I mean, and certainly America's greatest orator, and Coretta another extraordinary human being, no doubt. I mean, unbelievably powerful. I was there when he spoke at the march on Washington and I-
SM (01:47:13):
Wow, you were there?
PVB (01:47:15):
So I was there. It was when we were in Washington for the spring quarter. My wife and I walked there and I showed exactly where I sat when he gave the speech.
SM (01:47:26):
Wow.
PVB (01:47:27):
I am a tremendous admirer of him. I have [inaudible], his letter from the Birmingham Mail was one of the great militant civil rights document ever. His pilgrimage, that nonviolence is important, and I disagree with it. I prefer Malcolm's view on the necessity of violence, although I prefer to avoid it.
SM (01:47:54):
How about John Lewis?
PVB (01:47:56):
One of the great men, I mean, and he is still at it as a congressman in Georgia, wonderfully eloquent. He just gave a speech the other day when he looked in Congress in the house, when he said he was speaking to the Republicans, do not you people have a heart? There are people out there who need their unemployment insurance. Wonderful man.
SM (01:48:20):
He spoke at Kent State, and I was there recently, and I interviewed him for my book. I brought him to Westchester when we did a tribute to Bayard Rustin as well. Julian Bond?
PVB (01:48:31):
I have known Julian. I was a SNCC worker when he was the office manager. Wonderful, wonderful man. Unbelievably eloquent as a speaker. I had the good, the privilege when he was our guest at UCLA. I interviewed and I introduced him at a big public speech. I have known Julian for 40-some years. Tremendous. I admire verbal eloquence, and he has it. And his writings are tremendous. He has done tremendous writings on all kinds of issues that go far beyond Rice alone.
SM (01:49:11):
He is also the voice at Kent State when people do the tour now.
PVB (01:49:15):
Oh, he is the greatest.
SM (01:49:16):
At Kent State site. James Farmer?
PVB (01:49:19):
James Farmer, the former head of CORE. I heard him a dozen times. He faded into historical obscurity. But should not, he was an unbelievably eloquent man. He was in a Louisiana jail. He was the only major civil rights speaker during the march on Washington.
SM (01:49:37):
Yes. We had him on the campus. A lot of these people I have met myself. A. Philip Randolph?
PVB (01:49:46):
One of the iconic figures. I have written at length about A. Philip Randolph, the major figure that merged the civil rights and the labor movements.
SM (01:49:59):
And I think more students need to know about him, because when I mention his name, people say who?
PVB (01:50:05):
I know.
SM (01:50:05):
Where have they been?
PVB (01:50:09):
I have a class, I have a history of social protest movement, and I had 330 and last four. And when I mention Randolph, I think two or three heard of him. That is typical.
SM (01:50:23):
How about Roy Wilkins?
PVB (01:50:25):
A very important figure, too moderate from my perspective, too wedded to the more legalistic tradition of the NAACP, but certainly very important. But during the height of the Civil Rights Movement, the NAACP was among the more conservative forces in the Civil rights movement. And Wilkins classically in that tradition, but certainly he devoted his whole life to the movement, and one has to give him huge credit for that.
SM (01:50:56):
Whitney Young?
PVB (01:50:58):
Even more so. He was the head of the Urban League, but he and Wilkins were on the conservative wing of the Civil Rights Movement. I mean, Whitney Young was a trained social worker and kind of therefore less given to the kind of confrontation on the street. I worked with SNCC, and SNCC was the youngest group, and I shared that to you. Still do. But I like free confrontation.
SM (01:51:30):
How about Ralph Bunch?
PVB (01:51:33):
Bunch is an iconic figure. I mean, I work in the Ralph Bunch Center for African American Studies. An extraordinary diplomat. One of the early PhD scholars, political scientists, and I know all about Ralph Bunch, he is an extraordinarily admirable figure.
SM (01:51:54):
Rabbi Hesburgh?
PVB (01:51:57):
You mean Theodore Hesburgh?
SM (01:51:58):
Theodore, yeah, Theodore Hesburgh.
PVB (01:52:00):
He was the president of Notre Dame.
SM (01:52:02):
No-no-no. I mean the Rabbi. I thought it was Hertz. I thought it was Rabbi Hertzel or the Rabbi that-
PVB (01:52:14):
Hertzel. No, Hertzel is the Zionist leader.
SM (01:52:16):
I got the wrong name, then.
PVB (01:52:18):
Rabbi [inaudible].
SM (01:52:21):
I thought it was Rabbi Heschel. I thought it was Rabbi.
PVB (01:52:24):
Oh, Rabbi. Oh yeah.
SM (01:52:25):
He was with Dr. King on many-
PVB (01:52:27):
Absolutely very important voice for Jewish voice of social activism and justice. Very, very important. Abraham Heschel.
SM (01:52:37):
Yes. That is my mistake. I apologize. Fannie Lou Hamer?
PVB (01:52:42):
One of the great figures, her leadership in the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party, and an orator and a singer, an iconic, iconic woman. I have been teaching her and about her forever.
SM (01:53:01):
How about Ella Baker?
PVB (01:53:03):
Another one. She was one of the, it was she who broke, she did not break from the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, but she was one of the kind of originators of SNCC, very important figure. And again, representing the historical contributions of women in the Civil rights Movement. She needs to be much more well-known than she presently is.
SM (01:53:28):
The people that really were to the side of Dr. King at all times. You had Jesse Jackson. You had Ralph Abernathy.
PVB (01:53:38):
Absolutely.
SM (01:53:39):
And you had Andrew Young. Those three seemed to always be with him.
PVB (01:53:44):
They were always there. I mean, I met Ralph Abernathy. Dr. King sent Ralph Abernathy to our home during the Lebanon crisis.
SM (01:53:55):
Of course, I got Paul Robeson here, and I think you have already mentioned about-
PVB (01:53:59):
And I thought mean he really is the iconic figure long before the modern Civil Rights Movement. I only regret that contemporary African-American leaders do not pay homage to Robeson, John Lewis being a conspicuous exception.
SM (01:54:17):
When you think of the athletes of the period that boomers have been alive, like you think of Muhammad Ali.
PVB (01:54:26):
Ali is a wonderful guy and very political.
SM (01:54:30):
You think of Jackie Robinson, who certainly opened up the color line.
PVB (01:54:35):
No doubt. I mean, Jackie Robinson was a hero to everybody. He was certainly, in terms of his athletic prowess and his real commitment to civil rights, he was no Paul Robeson, of course.
SM (01:54:49):
Kurt Flood is someone who never is talked about, but I think he is very important.
PVB (01:54:54):
Absolutely. Broke the reserve clause.
SM (01:54:56):
Yeah, and you are the first person I even mentioned him. We seem to forget him, and I think people need to know more about him, about his life.
PVB (01:55:06):
I think.
SM (01:55:08):
Yeah, and certainly the Tommy Smith and John Carlos.
PVB (01:55:14):
That was the moral highlight of the modern Olympic movement, that moment in Mexico City. A wonderful moment. It drove a lot of Americans crazy. I thought it was terrific.
SM (01:55:27):
How about Dr. Harry Edwards, who was part of that?
PVB (01:55:34):
Well, I, Harry, I knew very well when we taught at Berkeley together. I think Harry played it incredibly.
SM (01:55:40):
He has also disappeared. You call the college and they do not have any forwarding address to him.
PVB (01:55:46):
I know, he is around though.
SM (01:55:49):
Do you know his website or?
PVB (01:55:51):
No, I do not, but I can get that for you. He was our speaker at the Bunch Center in May. Now, I always go to, we have an annual Thurgood Marshall lecture. The only reason I did not go was that I was teaching in Washington DC in the University of California, Washington Center.
SM (01:56:09):
Okay.
PVB (01:56:10):
Or otherwise I would have gotten together with Harry. [inaudible]
SM (01:56:12):
Good. If you have his email address, I would appreciate it. I brought him to Westchester quite a few years back, and then I have lost touch with him.
PVB (01:56:23):
When I go in tomorrow, I will try to get it. Email me tomorrow and I will try to forward that to you.
SM (01:56:28):
Super. How about the Black Panthers? And I say this specifically because you cannot just talk about them because of the unique personalities. I am going to mention the personalities and then your comments. Stokely Carmichael, Eldridge [inaudible] We will go with Stokely.
PVB (01:56:45):
He was terrific. I never knew him. I saw him occasionally, once or twice in the SNCC office. Very important, taken with himself to be sure, but did a marvelous job. And he was the bridge between the Civil Rights Movement and the Black Power Movement. And it was he who came up with, I think, was not it, he who came up with black power as a slogan?
SM (01:57:11):
I think so, yes. Yeah, Eldridge Cleaver.
PVB (01:57:16):
A tragic figure. I remember when he wrote Soul on Ice, and I actually did have a couple of conversations with Cleaver. I knew a number of the Panthers in Oakland when I taught at Berkeley. Cleaver became, I mean, a caricature of himself at the end.
SM (01:57:36):
I know he became a strong conservative at the end.
PVB (01:57:41):
He became a conservative. He became a Mormon. He became whatever he became.
SM (01:57:45):
He was living on the street too, I think.
PVB (01:57:47):
And he was viewed as an embarrassment in the black community.
SM (01:57:53):
Kathleen Cleaver.
PVB (01:57:55):
I talked with Kathleen a couple of years ago. She is teaching law at Emory and occasionally at Yale. She continues to do good work.
SM (01:58:04):
And of course, H. Rap Brown is in jail the rest of his life.
PVB (01:58:07):
He is in prison in Georgia. Another kind of tragic figure. I never knew him.
SM (01:58:14):
Fred Hampton.
PVB (01:58:15):
Well, I mean, that is one of the great martyrs of the infamous J. Edgar Hoover.
SM (01:58:23):
And then Huey Newton and Bobby Seal.
PVB (01:58:26):
Well, they were very important. My parents knew Huey. I never did, they are very important. Also, Bobby is still around. But he, last I heard, he was in Philly.
SM (01:58:40):
Oh, no. He is not in Philly anymore. He lives in California.
PVB (01:58:42):
Oh, he is back in California. Huey was a tragic figure, but very important at a particular moment in time.
SM (01:58:51):
And Angela Davis, who was not a Black Panther.
PVB (01:58:54):
No, but she, I think she is retired from Santa Cruz, but her writings are terrific. I gave a speech from the spiral steps at Berkeley when Ronald Reagan fired her from UCLA. and I was involved, and I signed a million petitions to free Angela, and I have spoken to her. I do not know her well, she is really [inaudible] born (19)43 or (19)44.
SM (01:59:20):
George Jackson was symbolic of all the prisoners.
PVB (01:59:23):
Oh, he was killed in San Quentin. And I mean, I followed that case.
SM (01:59:30):
How about Robert Moses, who was so important in SNCC?
PVB (01:59:34):
Tremendously important. Because you are almost saint like in what he did. He is still around teaching mathematics.
SM (01:59:39):
Yep. Thurgood Marshall?
PVB (01:59:43):
A judicial giant. Another Thurgood Marshall on the court.
SM (01:59:52):
One thing I always thought, when I thought of Malcolm, and I think of the Black Panthers, people are very critical of the direction because they challenged Dr. King and Bayard Rustin on nonviolent protest. But Dr. King challenged Thurgood Marshall because even though he liked Thurgood and was very proud of what he did in getting the Brown V Board of Education decision through the Supreme Court, that was a challenge because Dr. King used to say, I want it now. I do not, we are not going to wait any longer, and we are not going to have the gradualist approach of a Thurgood Marshall. So maybe this-
PVB (02:00:30):
No, but Thurgood Marshall also was not a gradualist. There was a wonderful love that... Marshall was a very, very fine lawyer, and that was the legal wing of the movement. And he was tremendously courageous in developing all the legals that culminated in the Brown decision.
SM (02:00:52):
James Meredith?
PVB (02:00:54):
Another interesting figure. I mean, it was very important for him to do all of that at the University of Mississippi. I do not know what finally happened to him. He must be in his (19)70s now.
SM (02:01:05):
He became a conservative too.
PVB (02:01:07):
Yeah. Well.
SM (02:01:08):
Nothing wrong with that, but just surprising.
PVB (02:01:11):
But he did mean it was important for him to challenge. I mean they precipitated those riots in Oxford.
SM (02:01:18):
Then of course, Medgar Evers?
PVB (02:01:23):
Oh, I think I had the same feeling when Evers was shot in the back that I had to the Kennedy assassination. That gives you a sense of my reaction to Medgar Evers.
SM (02:01:38):
Have you been to Arlington?
PVB (02:01:38):
Not, I was there for three months. I did not get to Arlington.
SM (02:01:45):
Medgar Edwards is buried there.
PVB (02:01:47):
Yeah, I know. Because he was a veteran.
SM (02:01:49):
Yeah, he is over in an area by himself near a tree as you would walk over to the Iwo Jima statue.
PVB (02:01:55):
Yeah. An extraordinary human being.
SM (02:01:57):
Emmett Till, that was a tragedy.
PVB (02:01:59):
Well, I mean, I remember that as a child. I mean, I talk about that and about the state against [inaudible], and that was an iconic moment. That was one of the catalysts in the Civil Rights Movement. That was one of the points of origin for the (19)60s.
SM (02:02:17):
And then of course, Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman, which.
PVB (02:02:19):
Yeah, of course. And I was driving that way a couple of, the three, four weeks around, not on the same road, but the same general area for [inaudible]. And it dawned on me that what happened to them could have happened to me.
SM (02:02:35):
And just quick responses to these terms. You do not even, Freedom Summer, which was (19)64. There is a book on that.
PVB (02:02:42):
Yeah, no, I remember it. I was in the Civil Rights Movement, but not specifically a part of Mississippi Freedom Summer. Very-very important in the movement.
SM (02:02:50):
Of course, the March on Washington (19)63. But a lot of people forget that there was another one in 1957 that Dr. King was at, which was smaller.
PVB (02:02:58):
No, I know. I mean, tremendously important in the modern civil rights movement. I mean, anybody who was at Washington in August of(19) 63, that will be one of the highlights of their lives. It certainly is for me.
SM (02:03:13):
Orangeburg?
PVB (02:03:15):
Orangeburg, South Carolina?
SM (02:03:18):
That was where the killings were.
PVB (02:03:20):
Oh, yeah. No, I know about it, but vaguely, I do not know enough that at this juncture to comment on it.
SM (02:03:27):
Jack Bass wrote an article on it, a book on it. Selma and Montgomery.
PVB (02:03:32):
Those were tremendously important. I mean, Selma, it was Jim Clark, the [inaudible] racist Sheriff. And these were all very vital parts of the movement. And there were examples of racist violence against the nonviolent protestors of the movement.
SM (02:03:55):
And of course, Little Rock Nine.
PVB (02:03:57):
Oh, I mean that, it was the little rock crisis that got [inaudible].
PVB (02:04:02):
It was the Little Rock crisis that got Levittown out of the news because it was just a couple, it was just a month after the Levittown crisis. But that was another one of the precipitating events. And there you had the legal defiance of Wabufarbus.
SM (02:04:20):
Then you had the church bombing that killed the little girls, and I know that that in that inspired Angela Davis.
PVB (02:04:26):
Horrifying.
SM (02:04:29):
And then of course, I have here the trip to Mecca, which was Malcolm's important trip. What do you think would have happened if he had lived? Because of course you cannot, just so you can say the same thing about John Kennedy. Maybe we would not have gone into Vietnam, but guess-
PVB (02:04:44):
We can. No, I think Malcolm would have grown into a leader with the eloquent stature of Kin.
SM (02:04:55):
Your thoughts on the Black Panthers again, do you think they were a violent group?
PVB (02:05:01):
Oh, they were undercurrents of violence. I think they were in the aggregate, sincerely committed to Black liberation. You read their ten point platform, their statement of principles perfectly acceptable. I still would like to see them implemented. I have essentially positive thoughts about the Panthers. I do not want emphasize them, but I think in basically positively about the past.
SM (02:05:33):
There were other groups that went violent. We all know about SDS and the Weathermen. We all know that a lot of people thought the demise of SDS was because of the Weathermen, the violence.
PVB (02:05:49):
SDS finally spun out like a tornado. The Weathermen were lunatic. They were romantic revolutionaries in a society that was never a revolutionary society.
SM (02:05:58):
Well, even in the American Indian movement in 1969 when they took over Alcatraz.
PVB (02:06:03):
Alcatraz, I remember that as well.
SM (02:06:05):
Then that went to violence at Wounded Knee by 1973. That kind movement kind of was set back for a while.
PVB (02:06:14):
No, I mean, I am in favor of carefully constructed defense of violence. The violence for the sake of violence strikes me as falsely stupidness strategically put into effect.
SM (02:06:25):
Yeah. I think the Young Bloods, the Chicano Movement kind of foul the Black Panthers too in some of their events. Describe in your own words the connection of the arts to politics and society.
PVB (02:06:37):
Well, that is what I write about. I have become one of the, it is fair to say that I have become one of the major scholars on political art. I really believe that art plays an integral role in the overall struggle for social justice. And that is what I have been, and I have a lot of parts of my personality and my life, but I have been documenting political arts for 40 years.
SM (02:07:14):
Could you give some examples of that? In the (19)60s, the art and the connection to social issues.
PVB (02:07:23):
There were literally hundreds. I mean, there were Vietnam, there were artists against the war in Vietnam. People, even iconic figures like Ben Shahn and Jack Levin and George Segal, they all did artworks against the war. They used their considerable skill to say no, and this is ongoing, and this is what I do every day. And in recent years, I have been documenting African American artists who have been upfront in the struggle against racism.
SM (02:07:57):
Can you describe about photography and the importance of that?
PVB (02:08:01):
The importance of photographers in the United States, for example, have played a key role in highlighting social injustice from the time of Jacob Rees and Lewis Hein all the way through the thirties. But the Farm Security Administration like, Dorothea Lange, Walker Evans, Ben Shaw himself was a photographer. And especially Gordon Barks, the first African American to do that. So they all use their camera to say, look, America, this is what is really going on. And they continue to be the eye of hunt.
SM (02:08:41):
Would you say the Marian Anderson experience in Washington with Eleanor Roosevelt was a major happening in the area of civil rights in America?
PVB (02:08:52):
Without doubt, without doubt. I have talked about the 1939 concert for as long as I can remember. And when I was in Washington with a great deal of internal soul-searching, I finally walked into the DAR Museum. It took a lot of internal fortitude for me to finally go into that building.
SM (02:09:17):
Yeah, that took a lot of courage on the part of Mrs. Roosevelt, too.
PVB (02:09:21):
Tremendous.
SM (02:09:21):
She quit the organization.
PVB (02:09:23):
No, I know all about those events.
SM (02:09:27):
Well, since you are talking about The Yards, and we mentioned 1950s TV. I was born after World War II, but the thing that amazes me as a young boy, I saw Amos and Andy and was on TV and was on all the time, and it was funny. But now when you reflect upon it, that was about the only African Americans that were on TV in the (19)50s, except for Nat. King Cole who had a show in the mid-(19)50s for a short time.
PVB (02:09:57):
The Amos and Andy was the classic example of African American characters. I mentioned it to my students regularly. I mean, I have childhood memories of it.
SM (02:10:09):
And do you remember that period when Nat King Cole was on for a short time and then it was canceled and it was a great show? And then in the early (19)60s, what is amazing is, and I remember this clearly. There were four shows with African Americans, and I remember reading an article in a magazine saying, they are going to take over the television. And this is early (19)60s. Diane Carroll was in a TV show was a nurse, Flip Wilson had his show, and then Bill Cosby was in I Spy, and there was one other African American that was in another TV show, and the commentary was, they were going to take over television.
PVB (02:10:50):
Sure. Just like they are going to marry your sister.
SM (02:10:52):
Yeah. Are there any movies that you feel were the best movies for the Boomer generation today? On CNBC, they got what they consider the 50 top movies for the Boomer generation. I thought that was interesting. I was looking at, you can even go to it.
PVB (02:11:11):
I would have to look at it. There is so many.
SM (02:11:13):
When you think of the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s and (19)80s, are there any that stand out to you that really, if you saw it, you knew this was the era?
PVB (02:11:30):
Oh God, I would have to go back. Dealt with so many films. I do film courses. I woud really have to look at it. There is some really powerful works. I mean, I am about to show, I do not remember when it came out but I am about to show the Boomberg kind of anything by Costa Gavras was tremendous. I am about to show Missing. About students about Chile. And then certainly right in that period, because you have the American inspired overthrow of the Allende government in (19)73. There is so many. There is just a remarkable number of powerful films. But of course, most films are just entertainment.
SM (02:12:14):
Yeah. Well, I tell you, when I saw these films today, I can still see them knowing that that is when I was young. Like the Graduate and-
PVB (02:12:22):
Oh, I know. Everybody has saw that.
SM (02:12:23):
Easy Writer and Zabriskie Point.
PVB (02:12:27):
I remember that too.
SM (02:12:28):
Bob Carroll, Ted and Alice, which I think was a corny film.
PVB (02:12:32):
Yeah. Zabriskie Point was with Antonioni, I think.
SM (02:12:36):
Yeah, I know. Shaft was really a movie that.
PVB (02:12:40):
That was Gordon Parks.
SM (02:12:41):
Yeah, that was a very, the Cat, the movie Fritz the Cat, which was a controversial movie in the early (19)70s.
PVB (02:12:47):
I remember, but it was rated X.
SM (02:12:50):
And the Marlon Brando, The Last Tango in Paris. That was during the sexual freedom of sexuality kind of thing. And so there are many more. All right, let us see. I am getting down here. I am down to the last little section here, if you do not mind. These are just, you are still there.
PVB (02:13:13):
Yeah.
SM (02:13:14):
These are just quick responses. You do not have to go into any length on some of the personalities beyond the African-American personalities. Just quick responses to these names or terms. Tom Hayden.
PVB (02:13:25):
Oh, I have known Tom, not well. Another very important figure. He has been at it his whole life, both as an agitator and then later as a legislator.
SM (02:13:36):
Jane Fonda.
PVB (02:13:38):
Yeah. She did good work. Mean she broke up with Tom, but she was out there. A good example of a celebrity who is also political.
SM (02:13:51):
Attica.
PVB (02:13:53):
Well, that was extraordinarily important because it got America to understand what was going on in America's prisons.
SM (02:14:01):
And then what is really sad here today is a brand-new book out. You have probably seen it about Jim Crow in America Today. All you have to do is look at our prison system.
PVB (02:14:10):
That is exactly, because that is what it is.
SM (02:14:12):
Yep. San Quentin. I say that because that is where Angela Davis and George Jackson were.
PVB (02:14:19):
Yeah, no, I know it. I mean, I have been on demonstration assembly at that-
SM (02:14:25):
Alcatraz, which is the Indian takeover.
PVB (02:14:27):
Exactly. Another remnant of America's ridiculous prison history.
SM (02:14:33):
Robert Kennedy and John Kennedy.
PVB (02:14:36):
Well, they were martyrs of the (19)60s. I mean, I am not a particular fan of either, but they were martyred.
SM (02:14:47):
LBJ and Hubert Humphrey.
PVB (02:14:49):
Tragic figures. I mean, Johnson was very good domestically, but a failed president because of his growth test score in Vietnam. And Humphrey was just a wacky tragic figure. I did not vote in 1978 and I refused to vote for him, and I have no regret, no apology.
SM (02:15:08):
Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern.
PVB (02:15:11):
Well, they were both wonderful anti-war figures. I voted for McCarthy in the primary and McGovern in the General Election.
SM (02:15:21):
Richard Nixon and Spiro Wagner.
PVB (02:15:24):
Monstrous figures in American political life. Nixon horrible and Agnew, a caricature of himself. And I used the word advisedly. A fascist.
SM (02:15:41):
Yeah. Well, he made some pretty hob nobs and whatever called else.
PVB (02:15:43):
Negative makeup, whatever the hell it was.
SM (02:15:44):
Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger.
PVB (02:15:48):
Well, McNamara is a tragic figure. I mean, he later recanted. You see that the documentary about his work has been sad, but he still was one of the architects. Kissinger strikes me as a war criminal.
SM (02:16:04):
Ronald Reagan and George Bush the first.
PVB (02:16:10):
Both pernicious influences. Reagan even more so, especially because people liked him because of his genial personality. But I have to add that he is not universally loved. People say, oh, Ronald Reagan. That is not the case when you talk to people in the African-American community.
SM (02:16:31):
Or people in the gay and lesbian community.
PVB (02:16:33):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
SM (02:16:35):
In fact, I have interviewed some people that actually, one cried on the phone.
PVB (02:16:40):
Absolutely. Especially with his contemptuous indifference to the AIDS crisis.
SM (02:16:46):
One thing about George Bush the first, is the fact that he is the one that said the Vietnam syndrome is over. I think he will be remembered more for that than no more taxes. What did you think?
PVB (02:16:58):
He probably will. I mean, he will come out better because of the malevolence and stupidity of his son.
SM (02:17:05):
Yeah. How about Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter?
PVB (02:17:08):
Both mediocre presidents. I mean, Ford was well-meaning, so was Carter. Carter's actually wound up being a much better ex-president.
SM (02:17:20):
How about Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower? Harry Truman was the first president for Boomers. So-
PVB (02:17:26):
Yeah, it is true. I mean, in retrospect, they are both good. I mean, Eisenhower, in retrospect is a flaming liberal. And his last comment about the Military Industrial Right Flex is still very significant. By today's standards, bright Eisenhower would be a moderate Democrat.
SM (02:17:47):
What is interesting, if I was a fly on the wall, I would have liked to have been there before John Kennedy and Eisenhower got into that car on an Inauguration Day because it is my understanding that a lot of things that President Kennedy was asking was about Vietnam. And if Eisenhower had just made a mention, I think you need to get out, boy, would life have been different?
PVB (02:18:08):
Could have changed the course of our history.
SM (02:18:10):
Yeah. Again, Bill Clinton and George Bush II.
PVB (02:18:14):
Well, I have already told about.
SM (02:18:15):
And President Obama too.
PVB (02:18:18):
And I am not a fan of Clinton for reasons, but I have already-
SM (02:18:21):
How about the women leaders, which is the ones that stand out? Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug. So they are different personalities, but-
PVB (02:18:31):
No, they are very different personalities. I am a great fan of Bella. I think her history goes deeper because beyond being a feminist leader, she was one of the courageous lawyers who defended people who were called before the House on American Activities Committee. So Bella goes back a long time. But Betty Friedan and the other one is Steinem. Which one?
SM (02:18:56):
Gloria Steinem.
PVB (02:18:57):
Oh, Gloria Steinem. They are very-very important. I mean, they help the catalyze, the women's movement, and we are all better off because of feminism.
SM (02:19:05):
How about Anita Bryant?
PVB (02:19:08):
Better to be forgotten. As I have forgotten footnote at a moment in time.
SM (02:19:14):
George Wallace.
PVB (02:19:17):
George Wallace was just another demagogue and horrifying race. I saw him standing in the doorway to find a federal order.
SM (02:19:28):
Dr. Benjamin Spock.
PVB (02:19:30):
Good man. I do not know about his pediatric work, but as a peace leader, wonderful man.
SM (02:19:38):
Daniel and Philip Berrigan?
PVB (02:19:41):
Very good. They represented, in my view, the best of the Catholic tradition.
SM (02:19:46):
Since we are talking about the Catholic Church, I had not mentioned this before, but Father Hesburgh was a real leader in that area.
PVB (02:19:52):
Absolutely.
SM (02:19:53):
Yeah. And he is the real deal. What? They cannot get another president like him at Notre Dame. He is like, oh, Mount Rushmore type person. Dr. Timothy Leary.
PVB (02:20:05):
Oh, strange guy. I used to have conversations with him in Berkeley. I am not big on drugs. That is where my friend Paul Krasner and I part company a little bit. I am very skeptical of the drug culture.
SM (02:20:20):
Well, so am I. And people cannot believe I went through SUNY Binghamton, which where everybody smoked pot and everything.
PVB (02:20:25):
Yeah.
SM (02:20:27):
I refused. I am never going to say I did not inhale because people were smoking in everywhere, But I never even took drugs. Ever.
PVB (02:20:37):
I have smoked pot a couple of occasion. I did not like it, particularly.
SM (02:20:42):
Your thoughts on the beats. Some people think the beats were very important in this anti-establishment mentality.
PVB (02:20:48):
They were the precursors to a lot of the activism of the (19)60s. As a literary movement, they are very important. People like Ginsberg and Ferlinghetti and others. I had a couple of conversations in Berkeley, with Allen Ginsberg same with Ferlinghetti and San Francisco. Very important. Ferlinghetti is still around.
SM (02:21:11):
Yeah, I know. He has that bookstore in San Francisco. And he like Ginsburg and Cassidy and Kirouac, Ferlinghetti, Waldman, Snyder, and Leroy Jones.
PVB (02:21:21):
And he is still around? He is-
SM (02:21:23):
Yeah, he is Amiri Baraka. Yeah. But-
PVB (02:21:26):
I like him. I have talked to him. I have been on the same program with him. He [inaudible]. He can be a pain in the ass, but he is made very important contribution.
SM (02:21:37):
Well, he is not available for interviews. I know that. Just your thoughts on the whole concept of the Cold War.
PVB (02:21:43):
That was so [inaudible] That molded our whole childhood. I mean, I was a child of duck and cover, except I refused to duck and cover, and I was sent to the principal.
SM (02:21:56):
How about the Korean War? What role did that play in, if any?
PVB (02:22:00):
It was there. I was too young to remember it actively. I remember when it ended. I only have fleeting memories of it. I remember it, but not as vividly as perhaps I should have.
SM (02:22:16):
How about the young Americans for Freedom, which was the conservative group that-
PVB (02:22:20):
No-no-no. I always knew the offers. I thought they were ridiculous.
SM (02:22:24):
They started at William Buckley's home, and he is my next person. William Buckley and Barry Goldwater.
PVB (02:22:30):
Goldwater. Buckley is obviously intelligent and a decent representative of the conservative tradition. So I mean, worthy of intellectual debate, unlike an Ann Coulter. Goldwater, in retrospect also would find himself in the left wing of the Republican Party.
SM (02:22:54):
I find it ironic that he is the man along with Hugh Scott that went to tell Nixon to resign.
PVB (02:23:02):
I know it.
SM (02:23:04):
What an irony that is. And then the whole concept of communes.
PVB (02:23:12):
Well, I remember that. I mean, that was part of the counterculture. I mean, I certainly have no objection to people doing that. It is not compatible with my personality. I must go individualistic. I could never live in a commune.
SM (02:23:26):
How about the Woodward and Bernstein changing?
PVB (02:23:29):
They did good journalistic work, no doubt. I mean, they helped expose Watergate.
SM (02:23:35):
And Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers.
PVB (02:23:38):
Very important at a moment that galvanized American knowledge of the underlying realities of Vietnam. So Goldberg, I am glad he did what he did, and I am glad that the Supreme Court allowed that to be published.
SM (02:23:54):
Tet-
PVB (02:23:56):
Who?
SM (02:23:57):
Tet And Vietnam.
PVB (02:24:01):
That was the comic guide that occurred in 1968. Turning point.
SM (02:24:06):
Yeah. That was the Gulf of Tonkin guide that ended the war and totally.
PVB (02:24:10):
And that was the turning point. And we ought to have realized that. And we ought to have gotten out, but we did not.
SM (02:24:16):
How about Hugh Hefner?
PVB (02:24:18):
Oh, Hefner. I mean, he hangs around LA in his pajamas and takes Viagra. He probably was important in breaking down some of the sexual repression. But what can I say? And he, he has done good work in the advance of the First Amendment. So that is a good thing. Playboy's a ridiculous magazine. And the Playboy clubs are horribly sexist.
SM (02:24:49):
Watergate.
PVB (02:24:51):
Oh, very important. Because it showed the pervasive criminality of Richard Nixon and his cronies.
SM (02:25:00):
And John Dean.
PVB (02:25:02):
John Dean has turned out to be quite a good guy. I mean, incredibly perceptive commentator. And he had the courage to come forward before the Irving Committee.
SM (02:25:14):
LSD.
PVB (02:25:17):
Overrated. I think it destroyed a lot of lives. If LSD can be used in a very controlled therapeutic way, fine. But I think that Leary and his colleagues unleashed hidden ways that had detrimental effects for thousands of people.
SM (02:25:40):
All right. The last question I have is, he, is the question of legacy. When the best history books are written, normally that is 50 years after an event, and I am going to paraphrase it. Say a hundred years from now and when the last Boomer has passed on. For people that have any memory of living at this time or have shared from people that are older about this time, what do you think the books are going to say about this generation that was born after World War II and some of the events that took place?
PVB (02:26:16):
I think that they are going to say that those members of that generation who reflected the activism of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, made significant contributions to America. If indeed we still have a world that has not been blown up or has not been so environmentally degraded that we still have a planet.
SM (02:26:42):
The Boomers right now, the oldest is heading towards 64 years of age, and oh, the youngest is heading towards 48.
PVB (02:26:50):
I know it.
SM (02:26:50):
And obviously, most people have said those people that were in the first 10 years are a lot different than those in the last.
PVB (02:26:57):
They are.
SM (02:26:57):
Second 10 years, but they are really approaching senior citizen status and I know that a lot of Boomers do not like that term, senior citizen. And so in a lot of buildings, they are getting rid of it. And I know AARP is considering not saying senior, because a lot of the Boomers do not like it. Your thoughts, we are talking about Boomers now that have about 20 to 25 more years of life if they have been taking care of themselves. What do you think they will do in old age?
PVB (02:27:27):
I do not know. I mean it is unique to the individual thing. I mean, I have no idea. There is so much over this genetic roulette. I think about that a lot at sixty-seven. I have no idea how long I am going to live. I run every day and I eat well, but I have no idea because my grandparents were all murdered in Auschwitz. So I do not know. Well, I know what I want to do. I want to keep working.
SM (02:27:53):
I know when we had Tim Penny on our campus, the former congressman from Minnesota, we had him at Westchester University when he rewrote a book called Common Sense in the (19)90s. I asked him to be interviewed, and he has gotten too big now. He did not want to be interviewed. But when he came to our campus, he said that the Boomers, which was his generation, have made a major mistake they had not saved. He said the average, when he was on the campus tonight, the average Boomer had about between five and $10,000 in savings in the bank.
PVB (02:28:33):
Yeah, that is going to be a problem. I read or I saw today on the Today Show that a very large number of them are going to outlive the resources. That is a major problem.
SM (02:28:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.
PVB (02:28:44):
My generation, I do not know that I can generalize. And I probably can. I know that a lot of people whom I know are slightly older than the Boomers have been much more fiscally moved.
SM (02:29:00):
He said the reason why he left Congress was to try to make more money, because he had a lot of kids. He could not make it on 125 or whatever they made their foot, which is a pretty good salary back then.
PVB (02:29:12):
If I had ever made 125, I would have done just fine.
SM (02:29:15):
But he said, your comment on this, I will never forget it, and I wanted him to respond to this, but he said, the Boomers are going to be broken down into three areas. There is going to be one third that are going to be very well off, very rich, and they will be able to do anything they want to travel, no matter what happens. Then there is going to be one third that are going to live in poverty, total poverty. They will have nothing. And then there will be one third in the middle, that will be having a very hard time because they will just be getting by. They will be able to survive, but they will be just beginning by, so he said basically two thirds of this, 74 million.
PVB (02:30:00):
Really marginal.
SM (02:30:01):
Oh, yeah. And of course, what has happened to a lot of Boomers is the economy has destroyed many of their, no, I mean, it is beyond their control.
PVB (02:30:13):
No, I know it. And there is nothing they can do about it. It is not their fault.
SM (02:30:17):
It is almost as if now that Boomers have to continue to work, just like students in college have to continue to work. It is the same kind of thing. And some Boomers may be working until the day they die.
PVB (02:30:28):
I know it. I am the last generation to get through the fine pension.
SM (02:30:35):
Is there any question that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?
PVB (02:30:40):
No-no. I think we have covered a lot, but if you have any more, just give me a call. I am around.
SM (02:30:45):
Very good. Well, that is it.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Paul Von Blum
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Von Blum, Paul ; McKiernan, Stephen
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College teachers; African Americans—Study and teaching; University of California, Los Angeles; Von Blum, Paul--Interviews
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Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He received his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University.
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2010-02-12
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.164a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.164b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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150:50
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-02-12
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Nancy Cain (Television producer)
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PSB show, The 1990s, and the author of the book, Video Days."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4995,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven, and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PBS show <em>The 1990s</em> and the author of the book <em>Video Days</em>.</span>
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam Videographers; Baby boom generation; Watergate; Free Speech Movement; The Cold War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Angela Davis; Attica"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam Videographers; Baby boom generation; Watergate; Free Speech Movement; The Cold War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Angela Davis; Attica</span>
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154:16
Subject LCSH
Video recording; Authors; Television producers and directors; Videofreex (Production company); Cain, Nancy (Television producer)--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Nancy Cain
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 12 February 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM:
Nancy Kane. Nancy Kane. Well, with someone else. The first question I always ask, especially in the last 50 to 60 people I have interviewed, is to tell me about your growing up years, where you grew up, the influence your parents had on you, maybe a little bit about your high school and college years.
NC:
Oh.
SM:
Just kind of the most influential people in your life and what made you who you are.
NC:
Okay. Well, Detroit, Michigan. Just when everything was great in Detroit and the car industry was booming and everybody was rich. I was just thinking back about my childhood, a very happy childhood. My dad was in the advertising business. They were interested in theater and the arts, and I have a younger sister, and we were both interested in those things too. Went to Mumford High School. I went to the University of Arizona for two years. Then I came back to Detroit and did a year at Wayne State University. And then I left college and got a job in a resident professional theater. And I worked for about three years of full-time doing theater in Detroit. And I moved to New York and also worked in the theater. And I ultimately got a job working for a producer at CBS Network, which is where I discovered video and where I was completely radicalized. And my whole life really changed because of that.
SM:
What year was that when you were working there?
NC:
1969.
SM:
Oh, that is a big year.
NC:
Yeah, it was that was summer. I started working at CBS during that summer of the Woodstock Festival. Let me see what else was happening at that summer. The meth one? The meth one.
SM:
I think there is also, that year is when the women protested at Atlantic City.
NC:
That is true. Right? They burned the proverbial bra. But yeah, women's lib was just starting.
SM:
Yeah, you went to Wayne State University, and I think that is where Charlene Hunter Gaunt went too in her early years. She graduated from Wayne State. She was on the Larry Report for many years, and she was from the south, but she went to Wayne State and graduated from there. When you were there, were there any teachers or family members or peers up to 1969, maybe even someone at the TV station you worked at that really inspired you, that helped you go the direction that you went?
NC:
Well, I knew quite a lot about television and television production because my dad was in the advertising business. When television first started in the late forties, he told his clients, "Look, this is where you are going to put your ad. Everybody is getting a television set, and this is what we are going to do." And they said, "Well, that is great, but there are not any programs to advertise on." So, my dad started producing quite a lot of television programs for his advertisers, and they spent a lot of time at TV station, and I watched the directors and the people who did all the jobs. But I think mostly that it was my family and what my family liked I liked. But when I got to New York, I think the big change that was happening at that particular time when I was at CBS, change was that there were only three TV stations. There were three television networks there. Everything was centralized, and there was no concept of people having their own communication decentralizing the television. So, in that summer of 1969, while we were trying to put together some kind of a new kind of documentary form for the network that I met people called the Video Freaks.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
Had just come back from the Woodstock Festival, and they were the first people I had ever known to have portable video recording equipment. There just was no such thing there. It was not even any tape until the end of the (19)50s. It was live television. That was, if they wanted to save it, they would make a kinescope, which means that they would film the TV screen and save it. And that is what they had. So, when video was invented, that kind of changed the whole landscape. And they came back, and I, at the time was interviewing a lot of people who had thoughts about changing television, what could be new in television. And they came back and they showed me pictures, video from the Woodstock Festival, which is the exact opposite of anything that I had ever seen before. The reverse angle of everything. In other words, I had seen some clips of famous rock and rollers up on the stage, and I saw that it had been raining and that there were like a hundred thousand people there. And it was phenomenal. The video freaks came to my office and showed me, they showed me video of miles, long lines waiting for the porta-potties.
SM:
Hmm.
NC:
They showed me people just totally stoned, tripping out acid. Fabulous. Not the show, but the actual event. So that is the first video that I ever saw. And we hired them immediately, and I spent then both rest of that summer traveling with the video freak trying to document what was going on in the counterculture in the United States.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
We traveled all over, and that is when I saw that that video was going to make it possible for all people to be able to communicate. You did not have to wait and see what the TV station sent you to make your own media and send it to the people that you wanted to send it to. It was really very primitive at that time. But if you look at the progression, it was the invention of videotape, cable television, the internet, YouTube, and it is now totally democratized media so that anyone can say anything and put it out to millions, gazillions of people in one click all over the planet. And that is what I had in mind, even though there was not the technology to do it.
SM:
Who were these people? How many of them were there? Was- it was just a small group that went to which...
NC:
The video freaks at the time that I met him, they were three people. David Court, who was a kind of media artist in New York City who had been working at the Brooklyn Children's Museum. He had a port attack. He went to the festival with his girlfriend, who was a painter at the time, Curtis Radcliffe. They lived down on the Lower East Side. They went out to the Woodstock Festival with their camera, and they met Perry Peace dale. He was 20 years old. He had a Panasonic camera with no viewfinder in it. And they met up and they were probably the only people there that had video cameras. And they set up a booth out there and started. People had never seen them, so they set up a little booth where people could, they would turn on a video camera and people would see themselves on video on the screen when they were just standing there. And how people say, "Wow, is that me?" They would look at it and be all excited. So, they did that. So, there were the three of them. By the end of the project at CBS, there were 10 of us very majorly fired after we did our proposal.
SM:
Did you become the leader of the group?
NC:
There was a... No, because leaders, that was not happening.
SM:
Oh, that was like, yes...
NC:
Very great for women at that time, because mostly up until that point, men had the thing, men had the jobs, men would hire the women, men would tell the women what to do, but no more. And suddenly there was equality. And by the end of the project, there were 10 of us, and we were all fired. They were all people that were working on the CBS project. And we all left CBS simultaneously after our pre-presentation to the network.
SM:
How long did Video Freaks last?
NC:
Video Freaks is still existing. We finally after, what, 30 years? I am not exactly sure, but about three or five years ago, we actually made a partnership agreement and are now kind of watching over these several thousand videotape that were shot, although we worked together and live together because for financial reasons, not because we were in love or anything. We had some equipment and we needed to share it.
SM:
Right.
NC:
So, we had a loft down in SoHo, New York, and that was too expensive. And so, in the summer of 1970, we rented a house in the Catskill Mountains, a big old farmhouse, and we turned that into a media center.
SM:
Oh, wow.
NC:
We were there for about nine years. And we were open to video artists and producers from all over who could come and edit video and work on, and then we...
SM:
Are a lot of your videos on YouTube.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Yeah. Is YouTube a direct descendant of video Freaks?
NC:
I say yes, even though, because the concept, we had the concept, we spent several years traveling around, teaching people how to run this equipment. So, we got grants from the New York State Council on the Art and from the National Endowment and other such. And we started a not-for-profit called Media Bus. And we would traveled mostly over the state of New York. We traveled all the whole throughway system, and we went to libraries and museums and cultural places, and YMCA and any place where people gathered. And we would have workshops and we would show people how to work this equipment and how to take control of their own media. And we would go out on the streets and we would record people, actual real life, interviewing people, asking William, "What is happening in this community? What are you doing with this and that?" And then they'd say, "Okay, now we have these videotapes. What do with them?" And that was just the beginning of cable television. So, the cable companies were wiring up cabling, all the whole state, all these small towns now would sign contracts with cable company. And in their contracts with these cable companies, there was something called access, community access, public access. And what that meant was, "Hey, you big rich media conglomerate, we are letting you cable up our whole town. And so, what we expect is for you to give us a channel on your big cable system so that we can communicate in our own community with each other." But the cable companies, they did not like that. And we were kind of outside agitators. And we would keep to all these people and community people and young people and the Boy Scouts and everybody. We would walk them over there to the cable company, take our little meeting with the cable company and say, "Okay, we want to do it. We are ready to go and have our own C station." And they had to do it.
SM:
See, that is an unbelievable (19)60s 70 thing, because you are really challenging the establishment there, number one. Number two, you were truly living what, as Tom Hayden used to always say when he came to our campus, the difference between power and empowerment. You were empowered.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Because you were in control.
NC:
Yes, sort of except that we were not making any money and we were not telling anybody how to make any money either. So that was like...
SM:
I went into the, obviously the computer and I on the YouTube, and I found a couple of your things on there, and you probably know, you have probably seen them. One was that short film you did on that woman who was leaving.
NC:
Harriet.
SM:
Harriet, yeah. The first time I saw it, well, the first time, I did not know why she was laughing all the time. Why was she laughing all the time?
NC:
Well, you know what? I do not know. She was hysterical. You can hardly see that the image on that tape.
SM:
Right.
NC:
You barely see it anymore. But what it was is we lived in a small town called Lanesville. That is where our big farmhouse was. And there were maybe 300 people in that town altogether. So, we had put together, because there was no cable in Lanesville, we decided to make a broadcast television station. We had before we left the city, Abby Hoffman had given us a TV, a television transmitter, because he had wanted us to make something for him because he wanted to do pirate television. Abby was doing a book called, I do not know if it was Steal this book, or one before that, where he was trying to empower people in all areas. He wanted to do, was have some kind of a pirate television station that would be run out of a bus or a truck or someplace that could move around. He wanted it. He wanted it to cut into the networks and put on this people's television. So, he came over with that idea, and Perry and Chuck, our technical guy, tried to figure out how to make that happen. And he came over to our loft and they showed him that they were able to figure out how to actually broadcast from one room to the next room. And so, we would not have to pound on the wall or shout it. He could actually broadcast to the next room. But he was very disappointed in that because he was thinking the city or the five boroughs, at least. Come on kids, let us get together. And that seemed to be a little bit more that we can handle technically. So, he left, but he left the transmitter, which he had paid for 300 and something dollars. So, when we moved to the country, we took this transmitter with us. And what do you know, it worked with a little bit more copper wire and a little bit of mass. We figured out how to broadcast from the roof of our house to all these little houses in Lanesville. And so, we would put on Wednesdays and on Saturday night, we would put on Lanesville TV, probably America's smallest TV station. And that way we got to know everyone in town because it was the only station that came in because it was stuck in the mountains. It was in a very high mountains on both sides and very, very, a narrow roadway that went down there. So, everybody in Lanesville watched Lanesville TV. So, I would walk down the road to the post office, I would pass by this little trailer that was sitting next to the post office. And Harriet one day who lived down there in that little trailer, she called up to me, she said, "Hey, you want to see my baby?" And I said, "Yeah, I definitely want to see your baby." And I am always curious about going into people's houses. I always wonder what it is like. And so, I rushed right down in there, and she lived in this add-on trailer with her husband and five children. And right down there was just really intense. And she showed me her little baby Toddy, and she invited me in there, and I spent a lot of time in there talking, and she was reading the paper, the New York Daily News. And anyway, we got to be friends. And so, I asked her if I can make a videotape about her life. She said, "Sure." I said, "What I will do is I will just bring the camera down, we will leave the camera running, and we will see what you do all day. And then we will come back and we will edit it. We will see what the story is." So I would go down there and I would spend the time with her, and she'd be cleaning the house and doing the wash and hanging the wash. And then Bobby, her husband would come home with his father and all the Benjamin people. She would make hot dogs for them and they had lunch. And then the teenagers would come, mom, I this. I do not want to do that. And it was just like a whiny stuff and just typical family stuff. And it was going on. And one day I just asked her, I said, "Harriet, do you ever think of just, how can you stand it? Do not you ever feel like taking off?" And she said, "Well, that sounds like a good idea. Let us do that." I said, "Okay, we will do that." And the camera was running, camera one running. She grabs her suitcase. She starts putting everything that she owns into this suitcase. She walks out into the yard, opens up the door, puts her stuff in the trunk of the car. It was not a trunk, I think it was a station wagon, so it was back. Slams down the hood, jumps into the car. I jumped into the car with her, especially, she pulls out of the driveway and starts singing, "Roll Out the Barrel", and starts driving and we are driving and driving and driving and driving. I am thinking, what is happening? Is this an act? Is it real? Is this life? Is it what she wants? Anyway, it turned out that, of course, she went back home for her family and did all that. And I came home with this footage. And so, when I was cutting the tape, I went with it. And at a certain point, I had her leaving. And the further that we drove, the more hysterical she became. She just was so pleased with herself. And I think the answer to your question, why was she laughing? Was that she empowered herself. She saw that she could do it.
SM:
That is a very important message within the era too.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Yeah. One of the other videos, and again, I did not look at all of them, but there was that very short 32nd one with Abby Hoffman. I think Paul was to the right of Abby. And when he was talking about Jay Edgar Hoover, is that...
NC:
I do not know that tape.
SM:
That is a video freaks tape too. And it was very short and sweet. It was really good.
NC:
30 seconds of Abby, where did you go?
SM:
Oh, you just go on the computer and you put your name in there under YouTube.
NC:
Oh, you went...
SM:
Yeah, you got to go YouTube and then YouTube, you will come up with the tape of that we just described, and then you will see a little snippet. Some of the things are not yours, but this one looks like it is a Video Freaks. And it was very good telling about J Edgar Hoover, a 70-year-old man who would never had sex. And I mean...
NC:
[inaudible]
SM:
Abby is unbelievable. Anyways, what were some of the events that Video Freaks covered in those times? I know they covered Woodstock with those films.
NC:
As it started out, it started out with Woodstock. All right. So then during that summer it was the... Oh, that is what you may have been talking about. It was the trial of the Chicago eight.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
And that was the first place that I was assigned by my boss at CBS, go with the Video Freak and cover that trial. And David Court had gone to Brandeis University with Abby, and that was our connection. They were friends. So, we drove out to Chicago, and I went with Perry, and David, and Curtis, the first three original Video Freaks. And we made that connection with Abby, and he had just been released from jail, although the trial was still on. We met them at some kind of basement coffee house. And there was a long, long interview with David Court shooting it in. Carrie holding the microphone. Oh no, I think it was Terry shooting and David holding the microphone. And there might have been a little clip from that of Abby speaking most out outrageously. And so, we were on the streets with that. The streets were just filled with people, and they were not only, there was huge protests going on it. So, it was not only protesting about the trial, it was protesting about everything that was going on. And the war, basically women's right. Basically, women's rights, everything. So that was the second major thing. And I really had no experience with the counterculture at all until I went on that shoot.
SM:
Were you allowed to go inside the trial or did you have to wait outside?
NC:
Oh, no, there were no cameras allowed inside there at all. Too bad. But a lot of people have recreated those events.
SM:
Were you able to sit there though, or just watch or-
NC:
No.
SM:
Okay.
NC:
No, but we spent a lot of time with them and also met the Black Panther Party at that time, and we did a long interview with Fred Hampton.
SM:
Oh, wow.
NC:
And he was killed by the Chicago police three weeks, maybe three or four weeks after we interviewed him. I was so strange. We went up to this place and there is all these Black Panthers who were at a beautiful town home owned by a supporter of theirs in Old Town Chicago. And we go up there bloated with people and they are saying, they are talking and they are laughing. They are like, "Oh, oh, off the pigs." And all this stuff. And I did not know what they were talking about. And I would say, "Well, what does that mean?" And I said, "Well, I am not from Chicago, so I do not know." I got a lot of big laughs. I did not really realize what it was.
SM:
Were the other Black Panthers there, like Stokely Carmichael?
NC:
Oh-no, no, not Stokely. Well, people that-
SM:
Cleavers?
NC:
I do not know the names of the, but we did a long interview with Fred, who was at that time.
SM:
What was the gist of that interview? What was he saying?
NC:
I am going to look up on a page and see if I can find something that I quote you.
SM:
Because I know there is a video of him on the streets, but I do not think that is a Videofreex-
NC:
But there is a Videofreex, and I think it is on, might be on, if you go to YouTube and go to Videofreex, the page Videofreex that has a bunch of stuff on it. And I think that it has pretty much a lot of the Fred Hampton interview. Let me see here.
SM:
One of the things when I was looking also at your experiences with CamNet later on, these are quotes that I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that go directly back to Videofreex. And these are quotes from you. "What we are after is emotional resonance. People are allowed to talk more than just a sentence or two. It is a window into the real dirty, unvarnished, unedited world. Just tell the story by telling us." And that was CamNet, but was not that Videofreex too?
NC:
Well, that was it. CamNet was, that is still my email address. So CamNet happened, well, let us see, after the Videofreex after Lanesville TV, some of us moved to Woodstock, New York. We did. And we started doing cable television access in Woodstock, New York, which was loaded with a lot of artists. And we got into a lot of trouble there with access and letting people say what they wanted to. And that was a lot of fun. And then I moved to Venice Beach, California. And well, by the time I got to California, I had with many of my friends and colleagues, put together a program called The (19)90s, which played on public television for seasons. And after The (19)90s, it was over, that played from 1989 to like (19)92. And after that, Judith Bender and I put together CamNet, which was the Camcorder Network. And somehow it was through a series of events it got cable access in, I think eight large cities, 24 hours a day. So, we are on the air 24 hours a day playing these videos that our correspondence would send us from all over the country. And that got a lot of press. And we got on the media food chain that the Wall Street Journal picked up on it. Wall Street Journal did a piece, and they actually made a little drawing of us, the whole thing, and put it on the front page of the marketplace. So, then the LA Times picked up on it and TV Guide picked up on it, and just one thing after another. And it got very big, but we could not raise enough money to keep it going, and it eventually folded.
SM:
Well, I have some questions here that are going back and forward between Videofreex and CamNet, so bear with me here. I am going to get back to Videofreex just briefly. In terms of you personally, no one else but you, what did this experience with Videofreex teach you about the young people of that period of (19)69 and (19)70, of the Boomer generation? And secondly, what did it teach you about our nation as a whole?
NC:
Oh, well, it certainly opened my eyes to the politic. I had never been really that political, but I think it was that, it was the opening, the freeing of the media and the ending the war. Those seemed to be the things that changed everything for me. And I never went back.
SM:
That Fred Hampton experience and videotaping him, or again, the tape I remember seeing is that he was a powerful speaker and that he seemed to be very well educated when he got on that stage in Chicago, wherever-
NC:
But he was like 22 years old or something.
SM:
Yeah. He so seemed to be, why was he such a threat to the establishment?
NC:
Well, let me see how I say... Why was he such a threat? Well, the Black Panther Party was a threat because they wanted their rights and they were powerful. And yes, they were definitely a threat. Let me just look, I am just looking through my notes here just to look back to see what kind of quotes I have from him here. Yeah. Fred Hampton. Fred Hampton, here is what I wrote about it. "Fred Hampton stood out among the Panthers as a thoughtful, soft-spoken leader. Perry asked him the first question, "You and the people around you always seem to be in danger. You could be killed as you walk out of here. If you are killed, will the breakfast program go on a day-to-day level?" And Fred Hampton answered, "Last year, we started a free Breakfast for Children program, and this year we gave it to the people, and they're running the program already. Our whole program is geared toward educating the masses of people. And say that Free health Clinic we have, the people in the community are going to run that clinic. And after a while, we are going to give them that clinic and we are going to move on to higher levels because we understand the difference between the vanguard and the people. We are not worried about them killing anybody. I think that you know they jailed Huey P. Newton, and they ran Eldridge Cleaver out of the country, and they jailed Bobby Seale. And we have got David Hilliard up there now who is very capable, most capable of running the Black Panther Party. So, they can just take all of them they want to, and we will have someone to fulfill that position because that is the type of organization the Black Panther Party is. We do not produce buffoons. We produce leaders. And anybody in the Black Panther Party and any type of cadre is becoming a leader. Our Deputy Minister of Health in the State of Illinois can run the Black Panther Party. And so, can anybody in this cadre. So, all that they are involved with is an excursion in futility. Because anybody that tries to deal with wiping out the leadership of the Black Panther Party is dealing with a time waste. A futile effort to seize some type of power that can never be seized, because a type of unending flow of this power. Every time somebody moves, we are just producing more and more people. The story goes, they wiped out Martin Luther King, and they wiped out Malcolm X, you know what I mean? And they wiped out all these people, and these people were produced. So, I think that in the near future, you will see programs initiated by the government. They will probably have the CIA protecting people like us, because when they wiped out Huey P. Newton and Eldridge Cleaver popped up, I know very well they would be saying, "I wish to hell we would have kept Huey P. Newton on the scene because this motherfucker is out of his mind." There was righteous laughter and nods of, "Right on, right on, right on."" And that was the beginning of our interview with them.
SM:
Wow. Can I use that in my-
NC:
Absolutely.
SM:
Yeah. This is important because when you are looking at the period that we are talking about, I think I even talked about this with Paul, that one of the challenges in this period was the Black Panther challenging these established African American leaders, which was the Dr. King's and the Bayard Rustin, James Farmer, Roy Wilkins. And even the Julian Bonds and the John Lewis's. This was Robert Moses, the guy from SNCC, I think left SNCC because he felt it was becoming too radical in some respects. So, did you sense that when you saw the Fred Hamptons, the Black Panthers? Did you even think about the people like I just mentioned here, the civil rights leaders that went through so much in the (19)50s and the (19)60s?
NC:
Well, because they could not have been a Black Panther party without that, I feel. That was the next step that it had to be. And they could not wait any longer. They just could not. They had to go.
SM:
Do you feel, it is something that I have felt for a long time, that when someone asked Martin Luther King what he thought of Thurgood Marshall, he had tremendous respect for Thurgood Marshall. But he felt that the Brown versus Board of Education decision and all the things that he had been involved in were two gradual. That was the gradual approach to civil rights. So, he wanted it now, Dr. King. So, the next phase you think was the Black Panthers, or even-
NC:
What it looks like, does not it?
SM:
Yeah. Then no more of this gradualness. The other thing is, what did you think of the Yippies? Because I know, I have talked to several people, Paul and many others now. I have a tremendous... I have always liked Abbie Hoffman, so-
NC:
He is great.
SM:
I have always respected Abbie. I have had my differences opinion about Jerry Rubin, but Abbie was kind of unique. But when you think overall about the Yippies, you were around them in Chicago. You saw Abbie, you saw Jerry. And then you were around people like Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis, Dave Gallinger, Lee Weiner, and even their lawyers, Leonard Weinglass, and William Kunstler. And Bobby Seale obviously was there. Just your thoughts on being around them.
NC:
Right. Well, was in intense and it was heavy. I know that the Yippies are kind of famous for being like comics. They made it exciting. They made it funny. They made it like a party. They made it good time. At least that is what it seemed like. And they brought a lot of kids to Chicago, so that when we went there, we were involved with the defense, the group. This one, I am looking down here to see if I can find. Okay. "Abbie invited us to the Conspiracy Defense office, Chicago seven. Dave Dellinger, renowned pacifist, activist for nonviolent socials change, the oldest of the defendants," I am just reading down my notes here," "was there, along with William Kunstler, fiery defense attorney, Abbie Hoffman of the Yippies, and Tom Hayden of the SDS." Okay. So, we were there at the place and we were taping and we were taping. We have been taping for an hour, and nobody said anything to us about the camera, the microphone. Finally, Tom Hayden, who ultimately turned to us and said, "Who are you with?" And David said, "Well, it is partly an underground thing, but we are also showing the footage to CBS." That is all Hayden had to hear. And he refused to let us leave the office with the footage. After a long, long, long debate, David erased the major sections of the video while Hayden, who did not trust CBS, looked on. And after the meeting, I called Don, my boss in New York, and I told him, "We have run into a little glitch here, and I was wondering if you could tell me, if just let us say, if the FBI calls you and asks to see the footage that we were shooting, would you show it to them?" Oops, just lost my page. I do not even know what page I was on. All right. Bear with me here a moment.
SM:
Okay. Yeah. While you are looking for that, I just want to say that some of the people that I have interviewed just are very flippant about you. They said, "Oh, they are just a theater group and they did not mean nothing." And so, it was very important in this project that I get substance from as many people as possible. But yeah, there was a lot of theater involved, but-
NC:
Yeah, but that is what brought them, that is what brought them.
SM:
There was also-
NC:
That brought kids.
SM:
Also, Abbie I thought was very serious. And actually, I find out he was well liked by just about everybody including his enemies.
NC:
Yeah. Here is some more Abbie stuff and you are going to have a hell of a job editing this. Sorry about this.
SM:
It is okay.
NC:
But just going around and around, talking to Abbie. He, in the beginning-
SM:
Let me turn my tape here. Hold on one second.
NC:
Okay.
SM:
All right, I am back.
NC:
Okay. All right. So, there we are down in the basement coffee house with Abbie, who is David Gold's friend from college. And David asked them, "So you have done TV interviews before? And no, you have not? This is your first?" Said David, getting a big laugh from the group. "Is there anything you would like to say?" Abbie says, "Fuck." And then there is a big laugh.
SM:
That is my cell phone. Bear with me. I do not know why... Do not worry. Go ahead. Hold on one second. Hold on. I am going to...
NC:
Oh, okay.
SM:
I thought I turned it off. Okay, go ahead.
NC:
All right, we cool? Okay. So, Abbie says "Fuck." That is the first thing he says on the interview. And David asked him if he was having fun. And then first thing Abbie says is, "What is this for?" Which is the typical thing that I heard from that time forward. Almost every place I went for the next 20 years, someone asked me, "What is this for?" But anyway, he did. And he said, "What are you going to do with this after it is done?" And David said, "Well, maybe we will put it on television." And Abbie says, "Network TV?" And David says, "Yeah, what do you think about network TV?" And Abbie says, "My favorite shows are Lawrence Welk and Land of the Giants. It is the truth. I thought I was just making fun of that because they are kind of campy. But then I figured out that they're the only shows I watch, so I must like them."
SM:
Actually, my parents loved Lawrence Welk.
NC:
Oh, there you go. Right, yeah.
SM:
So, they would have liked Abbie.
NC:
And let us see. Then they went on to discuss the weatherman action. Because then Abbie did say he liked the news, so David asked him about the weatherman. He said, "What do you think about the weatherman action last night when a brick was thrown through a barbershop window?" And Abbie said, he thought that was stupid. He said, "You have to lay an action so that you have some morality on your side so you can split the ruling class. What they did unites the ruling class," he said. Then David asked them if he thought he was going to get a fair trial. And Abbie said, "I will get the usual fair trial Chicago style. They are building gallows on the third floor. Some people say that is a pretty pessimistic sign, but I do not know. There is guys practicing a drum roll." And David says, "That is a little scary." And Abbie says, "No, no, not scary until the last days, then shocking. But it's never scary. No, it is just the last day when they say guilty and you said, "What? After all this shit, three fucking months, guilty?" And the poor jury says, "Abbie, they are doing time. They're just locked up. They cannot fuck or nothing. They cannot watch TV." "It is a good state of mind to put them in for the judge, isn't it?" Asked David. "Well, that is the thing that happens when you are locked up, because all they do is have contact with government people. US Marshals are the only ones they see, so eventually they feel an important part of the government team. The judge, the past four years has had 24 jury trials, and guess how many guilties?" "How many?" "24." Everyone laughs up joyously. What else could they do.
SM:
Now, just from being around, that is David Cort doing that interview?
NC:
Yes. Yeah.
SM:
Is this Cort K-O-R-T or C-O-R-T?
NC:
C-O-R-T.
SM:
K?
NC:
C-O-R-T.
SM:
Oh, yeah. Is he related to Cort Furniture?
NC:
I do not think so.
SM:
Okay. Because they are a pretty well-off group. How did these guys get along? I know that obviously Abbie and Jerry Rubin were in the Yippies, but how did he get along with the Haydens and the-
NC:
I am really not sure. They were from different groups. There was the Students for Democratic Society. There was mobilization for Bible and the Yippies and I do not know, a couple of other factions that really, I do not think they were together seriously, or friends, great, tight friends or anything, before the convention in (19)68.
SM:
Did you cover other countercultural happenings during that timeframe before you moved back-
NC:
Yes, because then we got totally involved in that and the war was refusing to be over. And so, we did cover many demonstrations, mostly in Washington DC. I am just going to look up the-
SM:
Were you at the, what do you call it? The-
NC:
was it (19)70 or (19)71? But I will find it.
SM:
There was the big one in (19)69, I know.
NC:
No, this was after that. It was very telling. Coming up here, coming up, coming up. Come on.
SM:
I am going to mention just two quotes of yours too, again. This is dealing going forward to (19)92 in the formation of CamNet, but I want you to talk about the counterculture, but these are quotes from you. "We are not here to confront them. We are here to hear them. I think people are starved to be heard. Most of the time people are not being heard." And then secondly, you love this, both you and other person, Kim. "And it is not just a job. It is a way of life." This is how one defines activism in the (19)60s and (19)70s. That is me talking, because when you start talking about, and the things I have read about you and your other organizer of CamNet is that activism is a 24/7 thing. It is a seven day a week happening. It is not like volunteerism where you have two hours. And when you start talking about, "It is not just a job, it is a way of life. This is how one defines activism in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. We have to do this." And I love you have an attitude, "We have to do it." And-
NC:
I do not remember saying that. I am saying, "Who is that?"
SM:
You.
NC:
That is so true.
SM:
That is, you. That is, you and the person you worked with.
NC:
Judith.
SM:
Yes. Yeah.
NC:
Oh yeah. Here it is. It was 1971, one year after Kent State University demonstration where four students were shot dead by the Ohio National Guard. To commemorate that event, protestors were going to Washington to close down the government by blocking all major roads to the District of Columbia. And the Videofreex were going to document it. On April 29th, David, Davidson... I am naming these names of the people who are now Videofreex, Davidson Gelati, Chuck Kennedy, of course, Perry Tisdale, Carol Vontobel, prepared to drive down to DC to cover it. David had met Davidson on West Broadway one day during the CBS project, and Davidson had a porta packet. He had a video camera in his hand. It was very rare. So, David brought him home immediately and he joined up. It was just like that. People would just quit everything they were doing and come along. It was crazy. It was wonderful. Anyway, "In DC the Videofreex met up with a larger video collective, including a lot of kids from Antioch College in Ohio. The Mayday Collective had arranged for Crash Pad for activists." So, I say here, oh, "The Videofreex hit the street. It was loud and tear-gassy, and hovering helicopters were scattering the protestors."
SM:
This is on the 29th of April?
NC:
Yeah, this was the 1st of May. I say, "It's loud and tear... On television, president Nixon was addressing the nation."
NC:
On television President Nixon was addressing the nation, here is Nixon. "Some people on television may have gotten the impression that when they saw the demonstrations down at the Senate, and that Barry Goldwater's door had red paint on it, I understand, and his office was locked, and that Washington is somewhat in a state of siege. But well, let me just make one thing very clear, that Congress is not intimidated, the President is not intimidated, this government is going to go forward. It does not mean that we are not going to listen to those who come peacefully, but those who come and break the law will be prosecuted, the full extent of the law. In the meantime, however, I as president, have my obligation to consider what they say and all the other things that I know, and then make the decision that I think will be in their best interest as well as the best interest of the people of the country." And then the police are shouting over loudspeakers. "Attention, attention, this is the Metropolitan Police Department. Everyone must leave the area immediately. Those who do not leave the area in violation of the law and will be arrested." Helicopters are landing, military troops are swarming the streets, sirens. A man is dragged off into the bushes and clubbed by two DC cops, the young boy is pulled from his bicycle and shoved into a paddy wagon by police who trampled his bike in the process. David got clubbed in the knee by a cop for shooting video. A young woman medic wearing a headband and white T-shirt with a red Cross painted on it spoke to David's video camera while the people were being arrested and dragged off all around her. She was a modern-day Clara Barton on the front lines, naive, innocent, brave. "Why are you staying here?" David asked. "Oh, I am here because I ought to stay and get busted with my people. Some of the medics are going to go behind the pig lines and use pig tactics and do what the pigs say, I am not going to, I am going to stay and get busted with my people. And when somebody is getting beat on the ground I am going to stop the pig from beating him so I can help him. I am not going to say, oh dear sir with a silver badge, can I help you? Can I treat my people now? Fuck that shit, I am not going to do none of that." And that is how the kids were at that thing.
SM:
Wow. Yeah, the intensity was... Back in sixty when you are talking about what happened with the Black Panthers, some of the people I have interviewed were very supportive of groups like SDS when they became the Weathermen, or when the American Indian Movement went toward violence at Wounded Knee, or when violence ever became part of any of the other movements, that is when it turned people off.
NC:
Well, the violence, it turns people off. Violence? What about the wars, and what about the government's violence? Yes, it is a terrible thing, but it is also a reality.
SM:
You think it hurt the Black Panthers though? Because there were people that thought they were violent.
NC:
Well, something hurt the Black Panthers, they are gone. I mean, there are new Black Panthers now, but I do not really know what kind of effect [inaudible].
SM:
Well, I think the old Black Panthers do not like the new ones. But again, you and Judith Binder created CamNet.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
What movements or events brought you together in 1992?
NC:
Oh, well, I was living in LA, and I was working on The 90's, which was basically a larger group of the same people from the beginning for me. And it was based in Chicago, Tom Weinberg was the mover and shaker, he was the guy who got the money, he got the money from the MacArthur Foundation and some other places to put this together, and the sensibility of the videos was the same or even more so. And I met Judith downtown at the Wallenboyd Theater. I met Paul when I moved to Venice, and Paul was doing a show down at the Wallenboyd Theater, and Judith was producing other shows down there. And then we went out to dinner one night after a show, I had not known her. You know how you were sitting at a big table and there was a bunch of people? And she was sitting on one side of me, and I did not know her. And I overheard her saying something like, "I have so many videos that I have to shoot, I do not know what I am going to do. I do not have enough time, and I do not know what I am going to..." And I turned I said, " Videos, you are shooting videos?" And she said, "Yes." And she apparently had been doing it. She was a native LA, so she knew everybody in LA, and was putting together a lot of tape. And I said, "Well, you must come to Venice immediately." She came down there and she brought her tape, and we saw that we were doing the same thing. And so, I hired her to help me with The 90's, and after The 90's was over we stuck together and continued our quest.
SM:
I got some questions in a couple minutes about that program, The 90's. But I got here, you came together in (19)92, and then how...
NC:
We came together actually before that, but we came together and got CamNet going in (19)92. I think it was, or (19)91.
SM:
How did these movements that were taking place at this time... I am talking about the ones when you were at Videofreex, and then you moved off to different areas before CamNet. How did the development of these movements in the late (19)60s and (19)70s, which is the end... Well, obviously the women's movement formed, the gay and lesbian Movement after Stonewall in (19)69. You had the Native American movement, which is the AIM organization taking over Alcatraz in (19)69, through Wounded Knee in (19)73. You had Earth Day in 1970. You had the civil rights movement that was going through changes with the Black Panthers, and then the anti-war movement was continuing. So, you have got all these movements, did you cover all these movements, and did you see a closeness between the movements back then?
NC:
I do not know if I saw a closeness between the movements. I will tell you what, I do not know the answer to that. Everything was happening at once, it is true, it all happened, I did not know all the people that you just mentioned. But what is the question again?
SM:
It is basically, did you have a chance to cover all of these movements?
NC:
I did some things, it was not all politics either. It was arts, and it was sometimes just people who might not have been particularly activists or political. But we did a long series called Working based on Studs Terkel.
SM:
Oh yeah, great book.
NC:
So, we did a lot of things based on going to work with people, just ordinary people in all lines of work and all places. So, they were not necessary political or activists, but just being with them and spending that time, and seeing how people deal with their lives. The personal did become political to me, and I saw everything in sort of a larger sense.
SM:
Well, the people who write about the history of the anti-war movement and other movements say that only between five and 15 percent of the boomer generation was even involved in activism, and 85 percent were not.
NC:
That is right. I do not know what the boomers are, I do not even know what that is.
SM:
Boomer generation are people born between 1946 and 1964.
NC:
Right. So that does not mean anything to me, because I did not consider myself a boomer. Well, I am not really, I am a little older than that. But I do not think that just necessarily being born in those years would make you a part of the movements that happened while you were living.
SM:
Well, a lot of the people that were involved in leadership roles were born between (19)40 and (19)46.
NC:
That is me, yeah.
SM:
And I know Abbie Hoffman was, and I think Jerry Rubin was. But a lot of people have had problems with just the concept of generations like the Greatest Generation, which Tom Brokaw talked about. And then you got the boomer generation, you got the silent generation, you got Generation X, and then now you got the millennials. So, you have issues with those kinds of definitions?
NC:
Yeah, I am not concerned with that, because it is about what the issues are, what matters to you, or what becomes important to you.
SM:
When you were doing these things, like interviewing people linked to the Studs Terkel book, and people who were working, this was in the early (19)70s?
NC:
Yes, all through the (19)70s.
SM:
Did any of them ever say that any of these world events were having an effect on their lives, or they just talked about putting bread on the table every day?
NC:
That is right. I do not remember bringing up anything outside of their experience, because what I was doing was living their experience.
SM:
Right. And with Videofreex and CamNet, this is something I think you made reference to earlier, you are a female, and a lot of the problems in the late (19)60s is that most of these movements that I mentioned were sexist. That many women had to leave the anti-war movement and civil rights movements, because women were placed in secondary roles. And I know that in the gay and lesbian movement, it was the same thing, because I have talked to people. And I think in some of the other movements, except the environmental movement, I think it is similar. Did you sense sexism in the anti-war movement and the civil rights movements of the late (19)60s and (19)70s?
NC:
Oh, totally, yes. If I had been doing film, I do not know what I would have done, because of whole... Because video started when the women's movement started, and you were not allowed, it just was not acceptable to be sexist, and they were so very conscious of it. But in the meantime, film up until that point, and any filmmakers, even at the beginning, film collectives, definitely they did not have that thing going, because the men already knew how to run the film camera, and they already knew all that other stuff, and the woman might have just been learning. But with video, we all started at the same place, it was a new technology, it was a new camera, no one had ever seen it before, we all had to learn it together. So, when we learned it, it was not a question of the men learning it first and then deciding which women could do it. So, it just was my good fortune to run into this new tech, and all our boys were very good.
SM:
Did you see it in the Yippies, or even in the hippies? [inaudible].
NC:
I am sure, I did not know the Yippies very well, but when you read about them, you do not hear too much about women. Although lately I have met a lot of women who did a lot of that stuff then and were not noticed. I know them now, and I know they are very powerful and smart, and they probably made a lot of things happen, that it was never known.
SM:
This next question just deals with periods of the times when boomers have been alive. And again, forget just thinking about the boomer generation now, these are just periods after World War II, and what they mean to you personally, I asked the same question to Paul. I will ask broken down into parts here. In your eyes, briefly describe how you would define the following periods, and the first one is the period between 1946 and 1960?
NC:
Between 1946 and 1960.
SM:
1960, what was it like to live in America in that time from your perspective?
NC:
It was great, it was wonderful. Oh, your daddy was rich and your mom was good-looking. I did not have too many problems during those years, but I mean, of course the war was over, the cars were rolling off. I grew up in Detroit, Detroit now if you look, it is in the news how terrible it is. They're going to raise the whole town and put in farmland, there is nothing left in Detroit, the culture is gone, everything is gone. But between 1946 and 1960, the best years for Detroit. And in 1960 I turned 20, so I guess I was beginning to be an adult at the end of those times. So, I did not have any problems, I did not have to earn any money, and went to college, and I had a convertible car, and I drove anywhere I wanted to.
SM:
Did you have any issues with the late forties and (19)50s?
NC:
I am trying to think if I had any, I was just a child. But we were Democrats, and we never could win an election. But now looking back, I think Eisenhower was not so bad in comparison to what come after him.
SM:
What did you think of the period 1961 to 1970?
NC:
Oh, the (19)60s was just great, everything happened to me, my eyes were opened. I mean, I saw what a terrible world it was, and yet it was so very exciting, and I wanted to know everything. And I took a lot of chances, I had a lot of adventures, I took some drugs, met a lot of people, I moved around, and by the time 1970 happened I was clear about my past. So that was a very informative part of my life, everything happened then. And on the other end of the (19)60s, I ended up kind of feeling as if I knew who I was, and what I thought about things, and what I wanted to do.
SM:
Well, that gets right into 1971 to 1980.
NC:
Yes, those are my hippie years. It was just great, traveled everywhere. The camera took me everywhere, the camera was my ticket to adventure, thrills and chills, I really enjoyed it. I had just one health issue in the (19)70s.
SM:
How about the 1980s? 1981 to 1990.
NC:
Right. Well, in 1978 I moved to Woodstock, and in 1984 I moved to California. So, the beginning of the (19)80s was kind of not that exciting for me, because I had already done so much video. But I moved to Woodstock and put together this little access TV station, which was a lot of fun, and I taught a lot of people how to do it. But then I was not so excited about doing it with them anymore, I wanted something else. And so, I left it with them to do, and started over again in California. When I came to California, I had been working for so many years at a not-for-profit company. I realized that I did not have anything to show for it, I had to borrow $700 to fly to California with my duffel bag.
SM:
How about the (19)90s? 1991 to 2000.
NC:
Yes, and that was the Venice Beach. And then it was going back and forth from Chicago and traveling around, putting together the show for PBS, and then doing CamNet out of the back bedroom of our little house in Venice.
SM:
Wow, and how about 2001 to right now?
NC:
Right, in the end was 2000, the beginning of 2001, Paul and I moved to the desert. And let us see, I am trying to think. Well, it has gone so fast, it has gone by so quickly. I learned how to cook, I learned how to be a homemaker. We bought a house, which neither of us had ever owned a home before, so we have a home. I still shoot video, but I shoot it on a flip video, have you ever seen those things? I mean, it is the size of a pack of cigarettes, and it holds a couple of hours of... And it is not tape, everything is digital. So, I carry it in my pocket, if something is moving that interests me, I tape it. I do not tape it, I record it, and then I put it up on YouTube. So, I can put up anything I want at any time that is interesting to me. And there is a lot of protests and some things, and we're fighting to legalize marijuana and other things locally around here, that is kind of fun.
SM:
I am trying to get an interview with Dennis Peron, do you know?
NC:
Oh, definitely.
SM:
Yeah. Well, I had an interview with him and he was sick. Well, he emailed me and said he was sick about 15 minutes before I was supposed to call him, so I got to find out how he's doing, because that was three or four weeks ago.
NC:
Yeah. So that is good, and I also take hundreds of pictures every week, photos.
SM:
Are the Videofreex and the CamNet, are they all going someplace for posterity and history?
NC:
Yes, the Videofreex is at the Video Data Bank in Chicago. It's part of the Chicago Institute of Art.
SM:
Very good.
NC:
And it is so interesting, because I just went there a couple of years ago. And they have all of our tapes that were in Lanesville that were on shelves with all our handwriting on the side spines, and on shelves exactly the way that they were, they have them there. And I am looking down there, I say, "Oh, there is me playing Santa Claus." Just everything, it is amazing. And the Videofreex have, as I said earlier, put together a partnership. We are trying to restore a lot of these things, which many of these tapes may not be able to be played more than once, they are growing mold and other things. So, each tape has to be dealt with individually, and it costs some money to put them back in shape. So, we are raising money, and people and filmmakers are looking for this information, and are interested in having these tapes restored.
SM:
Important for history.
NC:
So yes, that is happening. And the other later stuff is being kept in Chicago also with a project called Media Burn, and they also have thousands of tapes from the (19)70s, (19)80s.
SM:
So, everything you are doing the rest of your life are actually going to go there as well?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Okay, good.
NC:
Yeah. And pretty much a lot of it is digitized, and you can go there and look at hundreds of hours of videos at Media Burn, and can see all that. And there's even a lot of Lanesville TV there.
SM:
This is a question; how would you respond to critics who say that a lot of the problems in our society today go back to the (19)60s and (19)70s when morality and ethics seemed to be wanting. And it led directly to the following, expansive drug culture, sexual mores dwindled, the divorce rate increased, more people became dependent on government welfare, more irresponsible behavior, sense of violence in our society, a lack of respect for authority, and the breakup of the American family. And then you even had Barney Frank, a Democrat, who in his book speaking frankly, saying that the Democratic Party could not survive if it did not denounce the anti-war people linked to George McGovern in 1972. For the Democratic Party to survive, it must say goodbye to the anti-war people. Just your thoughts on the critics of this era, and the critics are people like Newt Gingrich, George Will, Governor Huckabee, it is conservatives, but there are some liberals that say it too.
NC:
Well, that whole thing you just said, I think that is total bullshit, a hundred percent bullshit. So, all the things that you mentioned, those are all the good things that happened, and anything good that is happening now happened because, go back down on that list. I say the opposite.
SM:
Okay, and why would you say that?
NC:
Okay. Well, what was the first thing on that list? [inaudible].
SM:
Drug culture.
NC:
Drug use?
SM:
Yes.
NC:
Oh, please. It expanded your mind, it opened up your mind, it made you smarter and wiser. And I disregard that, I think that...
SM:
The divorce rate.
NC:
Divorce rate? Well, if they got divorced, that means that they should be divorced.
SM:
Sexual mores.
NC:
Sexual mores? Please, let us forget that puritan ethic. We do not want that.
SM:
Government welfare.
NC:
Government welfare? Well, I really wish there was more of it, we deserve to have it.
SM:
Irresponsible behavior.
NC:
Irresponsible behavior? And more of it.
SM:
Violence.
NC:
Violence? Well, violence breeds violence, that is true. I am for peace a hundred percent. I do not like violence, but I do not think it is the fault of the previous mentioned things that brings it on.
SM:
Breakup of the American family.
NC:
All right.
SM:
Lack of respect...
NC:
I do not think that is true though, because the families I know are not broken up, and the families I know their kids are brilliant and fabulous. And all the kids in my family are just superb, and all my friends' kids turned out great.
SM:
How about the... What was it here? I guess, the violence, lack of respect for authority.
NC:
Definitely, let us not respect authority.
SM:
And how about Barney Frank?
NC:
Barney Frank wants to get elected, he wants to keep his job. Nobody's perfect, I think he is probably a nice guy.
SM:
Yeah. Could you define some of the positive characteristics of the boomer generation based on those you have known and seen over the years? I know you cannot talk about 74 million people, but just some of the positives or negatives within the boomers that you have known, or some of their characteristics.
NC:
Well, I mean, everybody that I grew up with is them, right?
SM:
If they were born after the war.
NC:
Yeah, my sister was born the day after the war. She is so smart and brilliant, my sister, I wish she was president. I do not know. [inaudible]. Oh, give me a hint.
SM:
Well, that is up to you. Some people say they just cannot talk about 74 million people.
NC:
Well, I can talk about 70... I do not know, the boomer generation as opposed to... Well, the boomer generation, they had a good chance at it. They had a good chance, all the things that were happening between 1946 and now, because they are still alive, just a great time to be alive.
SM:
Was there a generation gap in your family between your parents and you?
NC:
Oh, yes.
SM:
Explain that.
NC:
Yeah. I think my parents were freaking out when I took off in the Volkswagen bus to drive to... I mean, because it was a little late for me to do that, but I did take some time off in the (19)60s to drive across the country and do some things that made them very worried. And they were just a little bit worried about in the early days, in the CBS project, they were kind of afraid for me, like my niece has just joined the Peace Corps and is going to Cameroon. "Right, that would be [inaudible]." If I did not know her, and I would say that. But my first reaction was, "Oh my God, where's that? Who lives there? What do you have to do?" I mean, I was afraid for her.
SM:
Yeah. I have always said one positive, this is about you, but I have always said one positive, is you could hitchhike back in the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and go across the country and not worry about being murdered. Today you cannot hitchhike because you would probably end up dead.
NC:
That is right. So, I am afraid for her, but that is not rational because she's doing what she wants to do, and she is going to have a great adventure. And so, then my parents actually realized that at a certain point, when I said, "I do not want Nancy to go off with these crazy hippies, where people might be dangerous." And they finally said, "Well, that is what I do not want to do. Nancy wants to do that."
SM:
We always think of the generation gap as between parents and children, was there a generation gap within the generation, that is of boomers? Those who served in Vietnam or served in the military, and those who avoided service in Vietnam, would you consider that a generation gap?
NC:
Yeah, I would agree. I think so, that was tough.
SM:
Did you have any experiences with Videofreex interviewing Vietnam vets on their return, and their feelings toward the end of the war?
NC:
Yes, very much so, and also with the Vietnam Vets Against the War. And when we went to both political conventions in 1972, we went to the McGovern Convention and we went to the second Nixon, they were both in Miami Beach.
SM (02:34:05):
Can you hold it right there? I got to-
NC:
Yeah. Yes, I did not mention this group TV-TV, which stands for, what did it call? Top Value Television that was put together by a producer name of Michael Shamberg, who is big movie producer now. But we started out in New York together. There was Video Freaks, there was RainDance Corporation, there was People's Video Theater, and there was Global Village, were the four big video groups in New York City during the time of the Video Freaks. And RainDance Corporation was run by Michael Shamberg and was a very-very intellectual guy and put out a publication called Radical Software in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. Very smart guy. And he put together this video production group to cover the political conventions in 1972. And the video freaks marched with the Vietnam Veterans against the war, to both these conventions.
SM:
Ron Kovic, I believe was...
NC:
Ron Kovic had lots of videos. Ron, what a fantastic person. Really powerful.
SM:
I think that Bobby Mueller was another one, was not he? Bobby Mueller?
NC:
Bobby Mueller, but I do not know him. But video that we shot of Ron Kovic on the floor of the convention in 1972 at the Republican Convention Oliver Stone took that exact scene and recreated exactly in Born on the 4th of July. Tom Cruise. You can look at that movie and you can see him saying, stop the bombing. Stop the killing on the floor of the...
SM:
Do you remember some of the other Vietnam vets who you got to know?
NC:
Well, Frank Cavestani, he was also a video maker and also had been in the war and was a member of that group.
SM:
Did you ever have a chance to meet Jane Fonda?
NC:
I do not know Jane Fonda, no. I passed by her here and there at events, but I never met her or talked to her. I think Paul knows her, but I do not know.
SM:
In your own words, what was it like to be young in the (19)60s and (19)70s? Has there been a time like that for the young ever since, in your opinion? And in describing this period, give three examples that you remember of being young that stand out, could be good or bad.
NC:
Three examples of being young. Okay. Wait.
SM:
Good or bad.
NC:
Okay. How did you start the question?
SM:
In your own words, what was it like to be young in the (19)60s and (19)70s?
NC:
Well, it was just great, good luck, good fortune. And you know what, also for that other thing about sexual morals and that was, we did not have AIDS then. The kids today, they have the internet, they have digital, and they have a lot of things that move along more quickly and get you satisfied a lot faster. But they also have, that comes along with it, some terrible realities like AIDS and other things that are not so much fun. Well, and the music is not as great as it used to be, but I am old. Yeah, I think that being young at that time, that was... A lot of kids today, they wish they were... A lot of people say to me, they wish they would have been alive then.
SM:
You have had so many experiences in your life.
NC:
Many.
SM:
But are there three that you can remember that it was, wow, am I glad I am young now, or Geez, this is rough. This is a bad scene here, and I am a young person. Any just anecdotes that stand out?
NC:
I do not know. There was a sense of freedom, it is hard to describe. Well, there's the thing about money. We do not talk about money. I never made any. I could say that that is the bummer of the whole thing is I ended up here with 4 cents.
SM:
Well, that is a lot of people thought of the (19)60s money was secondary.
NC:
Worse than secondary. Hated it. Anything that had to do with money, I had no respect for money or people who liked or had or wanted to make money, no respect for that. Now I do not feel quite that way.
SM:
Yeah. And some of the richest people in the world today are Boomers. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
NC:
Yeah, the (19)60s. Well, the (19)60s began for me, I am not going to say (19)65, even though for most people it probably did. But I was very straight working in the theater in New York at the time, was thinking about politics. I noticed that there was something happening at Columbia University, and a lot of people were protesting. Then I became much aware, that was like (19)67, (19)68, I became very aware of the counterculture, which I considered to be the (19)60s. And I think for me, maybe it was a short period of time, although it seems like it was so huge. But Kent State kind of killed it, all the goodness of it all.
SM:
Right.
NC:
And although I lived the (19)60s all during the (19)70s. For some people it might have ended, but for me it maybe ended around (19)78, I would say, because cause of my lifestyle.
SM:
Was there a watershed moment?
NC:
When it was over?
SM:
No. Was there a watershed moment that you feel for you was the most important happening during that timeframe? Maybe not only for you, but for the young people of the Boomer generation? It is a two-part question basically.
NC:
For me, a watershed, I do not know. I do not know the answer. I could...
SM:
Some people it was the Kennedy assassination.
NC:
Oh, right. Yeah. That was bad.
SM:
And when you were talking about theaters, you were in New York in the late (19)60s, were you caught up in the theater of Hair and Jesus Christ Superstar, because those were the two?
NC:
Yes, but I was not playing on Broadway. I played in cabaret theater, musical theater and cabaret. And I played in some Off Broadway, and I did radio shows, and I did TV commercials. I had an agent, my agent would send me for the best gig. Oh, I had a watershed back then, I suppose, because somebody sent me some acid from California when I was still working at theater. I had smoked pot, but I was never into psychedelics particularly. But I did not know it would work. It was like a little piece of [inaudible]. It was nothing. It was a joke. I just put it on my tongue. I forgot about it. I thought it was a joke and then I started to trip. And it was that day that I had an audition at Gray Advertising on Third Avenue for a big commercial for Dial soap. This was important. I was tripping, but I knew I had to go. And I went on the subway and everybody's face was melting and wild animals on the train.
SM:
Oh my God.
NC:
It was crazy. And I found the place, and I went up there and I read the ad. I was waiting for my chance to read for these advertising executives to see if I could get this commercial. And it was so disgusting that I quit the business.
SM:
Oh.
NC:
I gave the script back. They wanted me to take a shower and feeling really not so good feeling. And then you get in the shower with this bar of soap and it makes you feel so great and exhilarated. And I did not want to do it, I do not want to do what they tell me. And I said, well, wait a second. I am an actor and my job is to do what the director tells me. And I was sitting there in the waiting room there next to a woman who looked just like me, who was reading the same script. I said, no, I do not want to do this. I just did not know what I was going to do really, but I just handed the script back to the receptionist and said, oh, I do not like this. And I left. And I went outside onto Third Avenue, and I was like exhilarated and thrilled. And I said, oh, I just quit showing business. This is the greatest moment in my life. And it was maybe a year later that I got this job as the assistant to the producer at CBS after not having worked in show business as it was.
SM:
You would have been real good as a backdrop for 60 Minutes. You would have been. That is right up your alley.
NC:
Yeah, that is true. Except that was just really too straight for me, I could never go back to something like that.
SM:
Why did the war in Vietnam end, in your opinion?
NC:
Why did it end?
SM:
Mm-hmm.
NC:
Because we lost I think. We lost the war. Us lost the war.
SM:
How important were the college students in ending the war, in your opinion?
NC:
Well, I think they had something to do with it, because you cannot tell somebody that they are going to be drafted. Talk about quitting show business. You have to do what they tell you and go where they say and go and get killed. That is why they protested. That is why we do not have so much protest now, I think, because we have a professional army rather than a citizen army.
SM:
Do you remember exactly where you were when you heard that JFK was killed?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Could you describe that?
NC:
Sure. I was working at the Vanguard Playhouse in Detroit. It was my first day off without a rehearsal because I was working in repertory theater. You do the show at night, and then you're rehearsing all day the next day for the next show, but then you go. But we had just opened a show, and I did not have any rehearsal that day. Living in a little apartment by myself. And I had just made myself a nice plate of asparagus and was watching a movie on TV with Betty Davis on it. I do not know the name of the movie because I did not see the beginning of it. There was tension, and it was black and white, very noir, very, very exciting. And she was walking with tension down the stairway. Someone was knocking on the door, she was about to open the door, and they cut away. Then they showed what was happening. They never cut back to anything for a week. They played for a week. And I was hysterical, crying, what did I know? I really loved him. I thought I really loved him. And I called up the director at the theater. I said, [inaudible] we cannot do the show tonight, we cannot go on. Everything is canceled. Everything is closed. No one is doing anything. It is all over. Everything is over. The world is over. He said, Nancy, just make sure you get here by call time for our show tonight. I said, no, how can we? How can we? He said, we have subscribers. They want theater. Whether they come or not, we are doing the show. The show must go on. And that is what it was. The show must go on. He actually said that.
SM:
And John Kennedy, if he were alive, would have told you to do it.
NC:
Maybe so, that is true. And then afterwards, I was singing in a club. After the show, I would go down to Momo's Cocktail Lounge where I was singing with a little trio, jazz stuff. And it was very not crowded. It was very, very glum and dreary over at the piano bar. And then as it got late, midnight, one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning, people started coming in. Just to be, we were there together with each other.
SM:
Have you been to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, DC?
NC:
The what?
SM:
Have you been to the wall in Washington DC?
NC:
I have not.
SM:
Oh. Because I just want to know what your initial thoughts were on the wall?
NC:
But it is beautiful, and I think it is amazing. Better than a statue or some shit.
SM:
Since you have not been there it is hard to say. But if you are in a dream, say, and you are visiting the wall, what do you think your first reaction would be upon seeing it or being near it?
NC:
Well, I probably would go and touch it. I remember once I was at the Western wall in Jerusalem, approaching that, and my first instinct was to press my body up against it. I do not know why, but I did. But I feel like I might have the same reaction.
SM:
Was the generation born between (19)46 and (19)64, or the people born around it, which would include, I call pre-Boomers like you and Paul and Abby. I think you're all part of it. Richie Haven said to me once, he was born in (19)40, between (19)40 and I think 1940. He said, I am a Boomer. I am a Boomer in attitude. And I am not of the greatest generation or the silent generation. I am a Boomer.
NC:
Yeah. I think of him as that.
SM:
Yeah. The question I am asking is, do you think that the attitude that this generation, that they were the most unique generation in American history. What are your thoughts when you hear that? Because a lot of young people thought it when they were young and they thought they were going to change the world. They were going to bring peace to the world, and racism, sexism, homophobia. And people look at the world today and they say, man, the Boomers have failed.
NC:
Right. Well, I did not think the Boomers thought they were going to change the world, now that you mention it. It just happened to them, that a lot of things changed during that time. Not too many people I know told me at a young age they felt they were going to change the world.
SM:
So, this attitude of uniqueness, you do not think.
NC:
Well, I think it is okay if some people think that, but sure, why not?
SM:
Has the idealism died within the Boomer generation for most?
NC:
Probably.
SM:
Yeah.
NC:
I think there is still idealism in the new generations. I think the new generation, my little Sarah [inaudible] who was born in Lanesville at the commune, she is a physician, she is doctor. And actually two of our girls are physicians. And they study all kinds of things like new world planning. This new generation, I have hope for them, I think that they can fix things. They really care. What do you call people who are between 25 and 35 now?
SM:
I think their generation Xer's.
NC:
Okay. The kids that we raised, that we know are a lot of generation Xer's, and they are smart.
SM:
The ones that were born between (19)65 and (19)81 are Generation Xer's. The ones from (19)82 on are millennials. So, which...
NC:
I do not know too much about the millennials. The Xer's I think they can do something.
SM:
The materials and literature I have is that Xer's do not get along with Boomers, but that is another story. The two issues here, very important. The first one is a label that is been put on many people in the generation is they're a generation that does not trust. Is that a good or a negative?
NC:
Trust. That the Boomers do not trust?
SM:
Yeah, it is a quality, that they are not a very trusting generation. And they may pass...
NC:
Oh, I do not trust anybody. I used to trust people, but I do not trust anybody anymore.
SM:
A lot of this lack of trust was because many of them saw the leaders that had failed them or lied to them, whether it be President Johnson on the Gulf of Tonkin.
NC:
Sure.
SM:
Watergate with Richard Nixon. Of course, you do not know about Agnew.
NC:
All of it.
SM:
McNamara and the lies about the numbers game. And so there's a lot of lying and lack of trust. So...
NC:
That is right. And I do not think it is any different now. It is just worse and worse and worse. Trust fewer. And I do not trust, maybe there is like three people I trust.
SM:
Well, the two things, one, I had a professor once who said in an introduction into psychology, if you cannot trust others in your life, you will not be a success. And then if you are a political science major, the first thing you will learn is a healthy democracy means that people do not trust their government. And by not trusting their government, it shows that liberty is alive and well.
NC:
Yeah. Right. That is both ends there.
SM:
The other thing, and this is very important, and it is a question of healing. I took a group of students to Washington to meet former Senator Musky, who was at the (19)68 convention. He was a Democratic vice-presidential nominee.
NC:
Wonderful guy.
SM:
And it was before he died, and it was in the middle (19)90s. And the students came up with this question. They thought he would respond based on what was happening in America in 1968. And this is the question. Due to the divisions that were taking place at the time, between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops, those who were against the troops, and all the violence that was happening in the inner cities because there were a lot of riots and burnings like at Watts, and after Dr. King died. Do you feel that this generation, which is the Boomer generation, will go to its grave when their time comes similar to the civil war generation, not healing from the divisions that tore them apart? Do you think that is an issue within the post-World War II generation?
NC:
What did he say?
SM:
I want to hear what you said first.
NC:
Oh, well, I think healing is possible. And I think to a certain extent there has been some healing between those factions that you mentioned. Maybe it's wishful thinking. But no, I think there has been some healing from women's movement and I think between the races, possibly, at least in this country. No, I think there is, and can be healing between these facts.
SM:
Senator Musky did not even respond to 1968. He did not even mention it in his response. He said, we have not healed since the Civil War because of the racial issues that are still present in our society. And he said he had just watched the Ken Burns Civil War series, and it just brought tears to his eyes because almost an entire generation was wiped out. 430,000 men were killed in that war, not including the ones that were hurt. And it was a devastating war, and that people did go to their graves not healing in the Civil War generation.
NC:
Yes, the Civil War is unforgivable.
SM:
But he did not even mention 1968. In other words, he was saying it was a non-issue.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
And some people have said that I should rephrase the question and simply say, those who fought in the war and those who were in the anti-war movement, that would make it much more relevant a question.
NC:
Oh, well, I do not know. I do not know what people are thinking about that. The people who were in the war and the people who were not in the war.
SM:
Any other thoughts on that?
NC:
No-no.
SM:
Since you were in the video area, there were a lot of movies in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s that kind of stood out. They kind of showed the (19)60s and the (19)70s for what they were all about. Are there movies that you feel, or if someone a hundred years from now was to put on a whole group of movies that would really define the Boomer generation, what would those movies be?
NC:
We are talking about regular movies alone or something?
SM:
Yeah. Regular movies.
NC:
Movies are a big disappointment, especially if they are trying to make some be kind of realistic when they are not.
SM:
Are there any movies from the (19)50s, the (19)60s, and the (19)70s, or even the (19)80s, that when you see them or watch them, wow, that is really emblematic of the time they were made?
NC:
Oh, emblematic when they were made. (19)50s. Well, I am not saying I like these movies. If I mention them, it does not mean I like them. But I was just reading this morning about Dennis Hopper's movie about, what was the name of that?
SM:
Easy Rider?
NC:
Easy Rider. That was a (19)60s movie. Right?
SM:
Mm-hmm.
NC:
Okay. (19)70s. I am saying that it was about what was going on, and it sort of was and artistic in a certain way. Okay. Movies. I watch movies every day. We watch Flickers almost every day. We watch...
SM:
How about, can I mention something?
NC:
They are so forgettable. Yes. Do tell-
SM:
The Graduate.
NC:
The Graduate. Yes. Yes. The Graduate.
SM:
And another one, Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice was...
NC:
Bob and Carol Ted and Alice is a terrible movie. What was that supposed to be saying? Was supposed to be saying what? That we could all sleep together.
SM:
Yeah. Then of course, you have got the movies like Shaft in the (19)70s.
NC:
Shaft. Right. And Shaft is like that...
SM:
Saturday Night Fever.
NC:
... [inaudible] exploited this.
SM:
Saturday Night Fever, which the beginning of the disco.
NC:
Saturday Night Fever. I enjoyed that film.
SM:
There has been a lot of good movies on Vietnam from Apocalypse Now to A Deer Hunter, Taxi Driver. I mean the...
NC:
Taxi river. You got them all. I would say, yeah. Those are the me memorable films. It is true. For me, I do not think about them.
SM:
But in the (19)50s, you got to look back at the James Dean movies because of The Rebel.
NC:
The Rebel.
SM:
The kind of gangs, before we had that was the (19)50s. Okay. The other thing here, I am now to the section where I just want you to, what did the following mean to you? That you do not have to have any long descriptions, just immediate reactions to it.
NC:
Okay.
SM:
What does the Wall mean to you? It could just be a sentence.
NC:
The wall?
SM:
Yeah. The Vietnam Memorial.
NC:
It means a lot of people died for nothing.
SM:
Watergate?
NC:
Watergate. Watergate. Watergate. Oh, Watergate. The first thing I think of is Fuck Nixon.
SM:
That is all I need. Woodstock?
NC:
Woodstock, of course. Well, Woodstock changed my life. Really. It did. Even though I could not get there because the freeway was too full.
SM:
How about the Summer of Love?
NC:
Summer of Love. Oh, I did not participate in the Summer of Love. It was just right before I became a love person. Although I did watch them from the Plaza Hotel where I was having brunch. I saw the them in the park across by having a good time.
SM:
Did that song, Are You Going to San Francisco wear some flowers in your hair, did that influence you at all?
NC:
No.
SM:
Okay. How about Freedom Summer in 1964?
NC:
Freedom Summer. Yes. That was extremely important, right? I am not sure why.
SM:
That is when the people went down south for voting.
NC:
Yes. Oh yes, please. Yeah. That was very good. I was working in the theater and I did not think too much about it, but I knew it was big.
SM:
How about the free speech movement in Berkeley?
NC:
Yes. Free speech, the most important thing. Yes.
SM:
Kent State and Jackson State?
NC:
Well, Kent State and Jackson State, both just, it was the worst thing because it was true. It was true. It was truly happening.
SM:
How about Columbia?
NC:
Columbia.
SM:
(19)68.
NC:
Yeah. I remember Columbia. Although again, I was not involved, but I got caught up in one of their protests up town one time in a taxi. I thought it was pretty scary. It was just really the beginning. It was before the big push.
SM:
Right. How about the year 1968?
NC:
Year 1968, I dropped out. That is the year I dropped out. That was between the acid trip at the advertising agency and my job at CBS, where I traveled across the country in a Volkswagen bus... across the country in a Volkswagen bus. And I was not thinking about the world other than my own, in front of my own eyes.
SM:
How about 1975?
NC:
1975?
SM:
That is the year the helicopter went off the roof in Saigon.
NC:
Oh, the end of the war ish. Yeah. Whoa, long overdue.
SM:
Chicago eight.
NC:
Chicago eight. The greatest. The greatest, how should I say it? It was a big, big entertainment, cute. I loved it.
SM:
How about Tet?
NC:
Who?
SM:
Tet. T-E-T.
NC:
Oh, the Tet. The Tet. Oh, the Tet.
SM:
Tet in Vietnam.
NC:
Yeah. Yeah. That was what year was that?
SM:
That was in 1968.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Some people say it is the beginning of the end for Johnson, so.
NC:
Yeah. Well, yeah. At least that.
SM:
Hippies, just the term hippies.
NC:
Love hippies. Love the hippies.
SM:
How about yippies?
NC:
Love the yippies.
SM:
With more emphasis. How about the-
NC:
Yeah. I have got my own personal hippie yippie.
SM:
Yeah, with Paul's unbelievable. You know something, I have interviewed people that know him. He has got so many people that respect him with a capital R.
NC:
You bet.
SM:
And there are people that I have interviewed that are not only friends of his, but critics of his, but the worst thing that they come up is genuine, real, and respected.
NC:
That is right.
SM:
And boy, he is a tremendous person. I read his biography. It is a great book.
NC:
It is.
SM:
The term counterculture.
NC:
Yeah, counterculture. That is what we needed and that is what we got.
SM:
Now these are just going back to the (19)50s now. You were younger. What is your perception of the McCarthy hearings?
NC:
McCarthy hearings was great television, for one of the first live television experiences that we had as a family. And it was remarkable in that way.
SM:
The Cuban Missile Crisis.
NC:
Cuban Missile Crisis, scary. That was really scary. Everyone was scared. But I had rehearsals and I could not be concerned, but I noticed all around me, people were very worried that it was, we were going to get nuked or something.
SM:
The Gulf of Tonkin.
NC:
The Gulf of Tonkin. I do not know.
SM:
That was the thing that started the Vietnam War.
NC:
Yeah. No, I do not.
SM:
March on Washington, 1963.
NC:
Yeah, a beautiful thing that is gave you hope.
SM:
Black Power.
NC:
Black Power definitely had to happen, had to have it.
SM:
Black Panthers.
NC:
Same there.
SM:
Students for Democratic Society.
NC:
Yes. Well, they did not have a very good sense of humor, I do not think, but they were very, very serious students for a democratic society. I do not know them too well.
SM:
The Weathermen.
NC:
The Weathermen. Oh, yeah. They blew up the house next door to my friend on 11th Street.
SM:
Yeah. Dustin Hoffman lived nearby. I remember that he used to go, he went over and was looking at it. They had him within-
NC:
Next door blew. I had to move out of their house because the wall was fucked up because the house next door was blown up.
SM:
Wow.
NC:
The Weathermen. Really, what were they thinking? I could have never done anything like that.
SM:
The American Indian movement.
NC:
Yes, very important. Please, we need it so much still.
SM:
And of course, they are known for Alcatraz, taking it over there.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Stonewall.
NC:
Stonewall. Yes, we had it. That came finally.
SM:
(19)69.
NC:
And that made a big, big difference. And that really, I think, got that movement going big time.
SM:
Earth Day.
NC:
Earth Day was-
SM:
1970.
NC:
Much respect in the beginning. I remember the first one. I think we have tape of that. Plenty of good tape for the first Earth Day.
SM:
Did you interview Gaylord Nelson?
NC:
I did not personally, but I think there might be some stuff there. There might be some stuff.
SM:
You may not know that, again, I got to know him quite well and before he died, and I interviewed his daughter. If there is any tapes of Gaylord Nelson, this is just for, to put it on the back of your brain here. His archives at the University of Wisconsin are being put together now since he died, and I am sending all my pictures that I have taken of him when he came to our campus. So, if there is anything in the life of Gaylord Nelson.
NC:
I will look around for that.
SM:
Yeah. Tia Nelson, the daughter, who is now one of the top environmental leaders in Wisconsin. So, I would let them know that they exist, because then they would be going right to the archives for students.
NC:
All right. Let me put the word out, see if I can find any.
SM:
Okay. How about the Peace Corps?
NC:
The Peace Corps. I would never consider the Peace Corps, but as I mentioned, my darling niece is signed up and they accepted her. But for me, this may or not may be true, but I do not feel like I would want to go as a representative of the US government to any country. I think that is the end of my sin.
SM:
Yeah. How about the Pentagon Papers?
NC:
Pentagon Papers were an important thing. Speaking of those recently, what is that guy's name again?
SM:
Oh, it is ... Now I am getting tired. Let us see here.
NC:
Daniel. Daniel Els.
SM:
Daniel Ellsberg, yes.
NC:
Yes. Well, he was no hippie, that is for sure. But he-
SM:
He was a Marine.
NC:
Yeah. His eyes were opened. I believe that he saw the truth and had the courage to.
SM:
How about Woodward and Bernstein?
NC:
Woodward and Bernstein. Not bad writers.
SM:
They are the ones that revealed Watergate.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
And black and white TV of the 1950s and (19)60s. What did you think of it?
NC:
Beautiful. Love it. I was into it.
SM:
Was it truthful?
NC:
Truthful? What do you mean, truthful?
SM:
I bring it up because it kind of made you feel good, but it hid the racism in our society.
NC:
Oh, that. Oh, yeah. Well, it was just a baby. It was just about [inaudible].
SM:
Still there? Hello? Well, I am just at the last part here, which is about some of the personalities of the period. And again, real quick thoughts, a few words about these people or their products. The first one is Tom Hayden. What were your thoughts on Tom?
NC:
He is a seriously smart guy.
SM:
How about Jane Fonda?
NC:
Jane, I think she has been used and abused.
SM:
Huey Newton?
NC:
Huey P newton. Huey P Newton. I do not really know. I do not too much about him personally.
SM:
How about Eldridge Cleaver and Kathleen Cleaver?
NC:
Eldridge Cleaver. Oh, it is...
SM:
They are Black.
NC:
I know they went to Algeria, kidnapped Timothy Leary. Let me see. Those guys, they are too heavy duty for me to really understand what it was, the inner workings of the Black Panther party and the politics of that. Are they murderers? Are they not murderers? I do not know.
SM:
And the last two are Bobby Seale and H. Rap Brown. Of course, they are Black Panthers too.
NC:
Bobby Seale. I know Bobby Seale, not well, but I ... That is him recently. He is an easy interview.
SM:
I tried to get him to be interviewed. He said nope.
NC:
You are kidding.
SM:
No. He does not interview too many people. He does not.
NC:
Oh. Well, I do not know because he has got his wrath. He is a very lucid speaker and very dedicated and is not really changed his mind over the years. He has been saying the same thing.
SM:
The other one was H. Rap Brown. He is in jail the rest of his life.
NC:
I do not know H. Rap.
SM:
Malcolm X.
NC:
Malcolm X, I think he was a great person. I can see how people were frightened of him. But even if a wimpy person, I am, but I still think that he was major, brilliant.
SM:
How about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.?
NC:
Yes. Yes, finest.
SM:
Angela Davis.
NC:
Angela Davis. Strong, powerful sister.
SM:
This is an event, Attica.
NC:
Attica, Governor Rockefeller. To this day, everything he touched was horrible. It is still going on. And that just reminds me of the horrible corruption of the government of the State of New York.
SM:
San Quentin, which is where George Jackson was.
NC:
Yeah. No, I do not know much about that. It was not good, right?
SM:
Yes, it is a prison with a lot of inmates.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Alcatraz. I say that because that is what the Native Americans took over. Actually, Jane Fonda went over there and supported them.
NC:
Yes. Yes, she did. I do not know.
SM:
Stokely Carmichael?
NC:
I do not know Stokely.
SM:
How about Bayard Rustin?
NC:
No, I do not even know that name.
SM:
Oh, he was the co-organizer of the March on Washington (19)63.
NC:
Oh. Oh, for him, that is good.
SM:
With A. Philip Randolph. How about Eleanor Roosevelt?
NC:
Eleanor Roosevelt, a brilliant woman way ahead of her time.
SM:
JFK.
NC:
JFK. Oh, JFK. JFK, I have heard of him.
SM:
John Kennedy.
NC:
Yeah, John Kennedy. Well, I think everything has been said about John F. Kennedy.
SM:
How about LBJ?
NC:
I hated him. I really, truly did.
SM:
How about Bobby Kennedy?
NC:
Bobby Kennedy, if it only it were true, and if only he had lived.
SM:
Hubert Humphrey?
NC:
No, not Hubert Humphrey. I am not interested in him.
SM:
Eugene McCarthy.
NC:
Yes. Good guy. Yes. But it could have never won, but because he was so good, so right.
SM:
George McGovern.
NC:
Yes, I liked him too. Same reason.
SM:
Richard Nixon.
NC:
Richard Nixon will live forever. And just when you think he has gone, he is back. And he has got tons of stuff that has not been released yet.
SM:
Both he and LBJ.
NC:
Endlessly fascinating. I did not agree with him, but he was so much fun.
SM:
Probably the greatest Vice President in the history of America, Spiro Agnew.
NC:
Spiro.
SM:
I am only kidding. Any thoughts on him?
NC:
No. I think that, but somebody did tell me that an anagram of his name is grow a penis.
SM:
No, that might be true then. That is what a lot of people thought of him. Robert McNamara.
NC:
Robert McNamara. Robert McNamara, the guy who lied about everything in the war?
SM:
Yep. He was in charge, Secretary of Defense.
NC:
Yeah, unforgivable. Unforgivable, twice.
SM:
How about Henry Kissinger?
NC:
Oh, the worst.
SM:
We are getting into the (19)80s now. Ronald Reagan.
NC:
Ronald Reagan. I despised him.
SM:
Gerald Ford.
NC:
What a dope.
SM:
Jimmy Carter.
NC:
He was never elected, ever to be president. I mean he is. He is just a joke. Okay.
SM:
Jimmy Carter.
NC:
Jimmy Carter, naive. Right on all the environmental issues. Just a little bit too Christian for my taste.
SM:
Dwight Eisenhower.
NC:
Dwight Eisenhower, the military industrial complex. But then again, he was a general in the Army. How good could that be? I do not know.
SM:
Harry Truman.
NC:
Harry Truman. I do not like Harry Truman. I do not like the Atomic Bomber, anyone who would drop it.
SM:
Bill Clinton.
NC:
No. And I was a fool. He is the only person I ever voted for who won as president, but I only voted for him once. Oh. But, ah.
SM:
George Bush, the first. Sounds like a king.
NC:
I do not even want to say anything about him. He is nothing. He is worse than none.
SM:
And how about his son, George Bush the second?
NC:
Is he a boomer?
SM:
Yes, he is. Both he and Clinton are boomers.
NC:
Right. Well, it is not the boomers' fault. I am trying to think of something relevant about him. I do not even like to make jokes about him.
SM:
President Obama. He is a boomer too.
NC:
I know. But I still love Obama.
SM:
George Wallace.
NC:
George Wallace, the guy who changed from being a racist to being an invalid? Even after they take off their take, take, take caps, can you really ever like them?
SM:
Yeah. Dr. Benjamin Spock.
NC:
Dr. Spock. I do not think my mother used his book with me, but most bloomers got raised by Dr. Spock. And a lot of them are very disappointed in his advice.
SM:
Dr. Timothy Leary.
NC:
I love Timothy Leary. Timothy Leary is great. A lot of people criticize him, but he's a brilliant guy and he escaped from prison. I mean, how big is that? How impossible could be.
SM:
Think I forget who the people were that got him out.
NC:
The Weathermen. The Weathermen.
SM:
Oh, that is right. That is right.
NC:
Well, I read a few of his books, some of the books, and I knew him personally mostly in his dying days. And I just joined his company some.
SM:
Oh, so you were around him during his dying days?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Did he change at all from the time he left Harvard to when he died?
NC:
I do not know if he changed when he, no. I do not know. I would not say that he changed a lot. No. No.
SM:
He was a close friend of Ram Dass, I believe.
NC:
Yes, I know him too.
SM:
And Ram Dass-
NC:
They are both friends. They are both close.
SM:
One had a stroke. I think Ram Dass had a stroke.
NC:
Yes, he did. Yes, he did. But he is doing very well, considering.
SM:
Can he talk?
NC:
Yes, he can talk. He lives here. He would be fun to go see. He lives in Hawaii.
SM:
He lives where?
NC:
In Hawaii.
SM:
Oh.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
You do not think he would do an interview, do you?
NC:
He might. You never know.
SM:
Could you send me his email address?
NC:
Oh, I will ask Paul. Yeah.
SM:
Yeah. Yeah, because I mentioned to Paul about Ferlinghetti, who's the beat writer, and he said go for it.
NC:
Yeah, sure.
SM:
Your thoughts on the beats, because many people thought that they were the precursors to the (19)60s, and their challenge to authority way back in the (19)50s. Allen Ginsberg, Cassidy Kerouac, Ferlinghetti, Waldman Snyder, and Jones. Your thoughts on the beats?
NC:
Yes. I liked those poems. I was kind of interested in poetry for a while and the brattier, the better.
SM:
Did you meet any of the beats ever?
NC:
Not really.
SM:
Have you ever met Ferlinghetti? He is right down in San Francisco, I guess.
NC:
I know. They just published Paul's most recent book.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
They were up. But I have not met Ferlinghetti. No, I do not know him.
SM:
Did you ever read any of their books?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Which one did you like the best?
NC:
Ferlinghetti, what was the name of the book to?
SM:
I am not sure. He wrote so many.
NC:
I know.
SM:
What would you think of Barry Goldwater?
NC:
Barry Goldwater, I like him better now than I did then. Although, we did not really know what was happening back in those days. He was just the president.
SM:
William Buckley.
NC:
William Buckley. Oh. I see he is really smart.
SM:
How about-
NC:
I do not agree with.
SM:
How about your thoughts on communes?
NC:
Well, people say I lived on a commune for eight years. I lived with some several other people in one place, and it worked out very well for me. I did not need to have any money and our company paid for all the dentist, doctor, all the food, the thing, this, all the equipment. They wrote all the grants, got all the money, did all the things. But I worked in the garden, did all that stuff. And it did not seem like anything out of the ordinary to me. It was like a way to live for me. But I do not know about the communes that are the famous communes.
SM:
Like the farm still exists.
NC:
Right. And I know them. I know with the farm, and I like them very much.
SM:
Steve Casket. I interviewed him.
NC:
I liked Steve, and I like Aida May very, very much. And he's just adorable, wonderful. Changed the life of so many women.
SM:
LSD.
NC:
LSD, that was a great thing. It was a great thing that happened and it was good for humankind.
SM:
Just the whole concept of the Cold War, did that ever scare you?
NC:
It did not really. I wish it was back, actually. Better than the other one.
SM:
Yeah. When you said you were 20. When you turned six, was it 1960?
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
So you were in high school when the Cold War was in its prime. Did you ever fear the nuclear attacks and all the other stuff?
NC:
No, I never did.
SM:
Okay.
NC:
Just it had no basis in reality to me. I could not relate to it.
SM:
That was also the period of Sputnik.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
There is a rise of higher education, which is a very important part of the (19)60s too. So many people going to college. How about the Korean War? Did that have any links to that at all?
NC:
Oh, was it summer? It was at summer camp. I could not believe there was another war. Well, it was just one was over and now there was another war. It was crazy. It is still going on too.
SM:
I agree. A lot of people think it's coming back because of our tensions with Russia. Although, President Obama's a friend right now with the president, but we will see what happens. My next to last question is pictures say a thousand words. You were a photographer. Of all the pictures from the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s that were in magazines and that were in newspapers, are there several pictures that you think stood out that were symbolic of the times?
NC:
Well. Oh, well, the 10th state picture and the picture of the man shooting the man in the head. And well, there are the images I think of are all horrible.
SM:
Yeah, that is interesting.
NC:
Just off the top of my head there are, it just, I could never read Life Magazine. I would never even open it. People said, "Oh, why, because they could have great photography." Well, I did not want to see the pictures for every time I looked at it, it was something horrible and big and in really good definition. No.
SM:
Yeah. I think there were, you hit one. The picture of the girl over the body at Ken State. That is one of the top 100 of the 20th century.
NC:
Yeah. Is it?
SM:
And of the girl in the picture, the one that was burned in the Vietnam War.
NC:
Yes. Oh.
SM:
That is Kim Phuc. And then the athletes at the (19)68.
NC:
It is the fifth.
SM:
The fifth up in the air. That is another big one. And certainly, mean lies another one and that.
NC:
But were there any happy pictures?
SM:
I am trying to think of any. Of course, the Kennedy or the assassination of Dr. King.
NC:
Oh, it is awful.
SM:
I am trying to think. I think the happy ones may have been the space. Well, because the space program is growing then and landing on the moon and everything. When all is said and done, the best books are written about a 50 to 100 years after a particular event are happening. When the last boomer or the last person who was in this group has passed on, what do you think historians and sociologists will be writing about this period, about this generation and their impact on America and the world?
NC:
I have no idea. I hope they have your book.
SM:
My books, at the rate it is going, it is going to be two books.
NC:
Really? I mean, it is huge, huge, huge. And I think that, and I hope that it will work.
SM:
Well, what I am hoping to do in this book is that I am going to be adamant. I have already been one University Press. I have only contacted two. They are both interested, but I do not have any contract. But the thing is, you got to cut them down and you have got to, I am going to edit them. You will see your, so will Paul eventually, because I am six months I am hibernating to transcribe and send them out, is that they are not going to compromise the interviews. I am not going to do it. I want to reach college students and high school students. I want them to love history again. I want them to read about people and to understand the times that they may not have lived in, but also to inspire boomers to read this because every person has a story to tell. Everybody is legitimate. We may disagree, but I think we can agree that we can disagree. And that is what I want to do on this. So that there is a lot of people that do not like other people in the book. I have one person who told me, "I am not going to be interviewed by you. You interviewed that person." And he said goodbye. I do not want that kind of a person.
NC:
That is right. I agree with you.
SM:
And so I like people like you and Paul, and some of the people that Paul has recommended. I did not get all the people that Paul recommended because a couple of them said no, and then some did not respond. But that is okay. That is part of any process.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
But what other-other organization I wanted to mention was the Young Americans for Freedom. Did you know anything about that group?
NC:
Well, sort of, maybe.
SM:
They were the more conservative group.
NC:
Yes, they were. I thought they were a bunch of dopes. But they are still very, very big today.
SM:
Yeah, and they were-
NC:
Because they got their start in that organization, became very successful. The people I knew who got their start in that organization became very successful in Washington, DC in several different.
SM:
That started at William Buckley's home.
NC:
Did it?
SM:
Yeah. She started it in the early (19)50s. And one thing I did not ask you is about the women, which is the Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug.
NC:
Yes. Yes-yes. Yes, them.
SM:
And Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug and Betty Friedan. What did you think of those women?
NC:
Well, I loved them. And Bella, she was at the ... I met her in 1972 at the Democratic Convention, and she was just great with us. She was so wonderful, so forthcoming, just right there for us. So we enjoyed her company so much. And I liked Ms. Magazine. I wrote for it a couple of times, and I think that Gloria Steinem is the person that asks the question to whatever the question is. I said, "Well, why do not you ask Gloria Steinem because she is so smart and fast, she is going to get it right away."
SM:
Yeah. I have learned it even within the movements, there is disagreements, which is obvious. And so, one of the questions that I have asked a lot of people, and I am not going to ask this, but is that the unity that seemed to be so present in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s amongst all these groups at anti-war, you do not see it anymore. You see a protest and you do not see very many. They are kind of become, one of the criticisms of the movement groups is that they have become so special interest, and that is conservative. The special interest groups have taken over. But it is a legitimate criticism even amongst many liberals, because if you have a women's movement and you have a protest, you do not see the gay and lesbian groups there. You do not see the anti, I mean, there is no unity anymore. I am not sure if that is just me seeing this or whether you see it as well. I do not know.
NC:
Well, I think that right now that was trying to happen. And I have a friend who is right now putting together a big protest for October. She got the permit for the location before she knew what it was going to be. She just graduated from UCLA and she is into that community organizing and things like that. Yeah. She is bringing, what she is doing is she is going to be in Sacramento in October, and she is trying to bring together exactly that, a coalition of all these groups who need to be heard. And so, it is the gay and lesbian. They have all these initials, GLG, LD, LV. I know she has got all of those. She has got every possible fact, and she is trying to bring them together under one roof. But I think that one of the reasons, what you mentioned, one of the reasons that might be a problem is that there are not these individual personalities who can bring attention to it all. There used to be an Abbie and there was a sign. I mean, you go to the World Trade thing in Canada or wherever it is, and you see a bunch of kids in the street breaking windows. But you do not have a sense of who are these people? How can I relate to them? Are they me? They are just nobody.
SM:
I know that close with this. I know that when Abbie Hoffman committed suicide, when I heard, he lived over in Bucks County. And I remember the article that was written about when they found him, that he was on his bed. He had written a note saying that no one was listening to me anymore and that he only had $2000 in the bank or something like that, because he had given all his money away. I almost cried when I heard it because the fact that. I almost cried when I heard it because of the fact that I did not know him. I had seen him so many times. There were times when... And I knew a lot of people did not like him and what he represented, but when I saw him on the Phil Donahue show, when I lived in California, when he came out of hiding, and he knew he was going to have to go to jail, and he had changed his nose and he had plastic surgery, and he had been working on issues behind the scenes under another name to save a river.
NC:
Right.
SM:
You knew this man. It was more than just the theatrics, it was the substance.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
And people that I have interviewed, beyond Paul had told me that, "How can you not really? How do you dislike him?" People disliked Jerry Ruben. They disliked him.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Because they thought he had a mean streak in him. And he did a scene on the Phil Donahue show that just about embarrassed, but they hit the Yippies and I [inaudible] if you Phil Donahue, but he is so darn protected. I do not know, but he kind of really made Phil Donahue look terrible, and it is on YouTube. But Abby Hoffman never would have done that. He never would have been respectful, but I am just sad that he died feeling that way if there was truth that no one is listening anymore. Because you know something, Abby? I was listening.
NC:
Oh, bless your heart.
SM:
See, and what some of the regrets is never getting to meet some of the people that you and others are talking about, because they would have been my friends.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
And both conservatives and liberals, now. I have worked with all of them in the university environment, so people that know me know I am pretty fair. And I just like people who stand for something, people who are not... It is like Teddy Roosevelt said, people who are not afraid to go into the arena of life, knowing that when you go into that arena of life, you are going to add enemies and friends. But even though if you want to live in a world where you are not vulnerable and you do not want to be hurt, then you will never help other people in this world. So, I do not know how I got on this tangent here, but...
NC:
I am glad you told me.
SM:
Yeah. Well, it is important because I am not going to let the interviews that I have of some people, and it is honest and true when they just go past the Yippies and the other things. I am not going to let that happen on any group and any entity because this is about what people think about them. The yippies were much more than just a theatrical group trying to raise hell. So anyways.
NC:
Wow. I am impressed. This is going to be great.
SM:
Well, I will be staying in touch with you. If you can think of any people, be even yourself that even Paul does not know about that would be good for interviews. Ron Doss, I thought he had a stroke and could not talk, but people like that. I am interviewing Robert. J. Lifton. I do not know if you have heard of him.
NC:
Robert. J. Lifton, this name...
SM:
The professor at Harvard who talked about the Vietnam Vets and post-traumatic stress disorder.
NC:
Right.
SM:
Well, I am interviewing him. He is 86 years old and...
NC:
Oh, beautiful.
SM:
And he is retired. But I want to interview him because he wrote a book on the Holocaust. He wrote a book on the Vietnam Veterans. He wrote Upon Man's Inhumanity, the Man. It is more of a psychological, so I am not only going to talk about Vietnam vets, I am going to talk about the effect that it had on the other side. Did you see the anti-war people or the people that were so passionate on the other side, the effects that it may have affect them mentally as well. And I am asking questions and I am never going to be able to ask any other person but him.
NC:
Right.
SM:
So I got an interview with him on the 29th up in... And then I am going to interview Jerry Lemke, the professor at Holy Cross when I am up there and he's the guy, the real spitting image, which is the person that said that the story about people spitting on Vietnam vets is totally a myth.
NC:
That is right.
SM:
And so, I am interviewing him, and then I just found out today that Alan Wolf from Boston College, a great professor up there, philosopher, religious professor, is agreed to be interviewed because I want him to address the issues of morality and ethics within the generation. Of course, he has written a lot about it, and so I want him to talk about the effect this has had from his perspective. So, everybody has got their unique angle and anyways.
NC:
Great. Great-great, great.
SM:
Well...
NC:
Thank you for including me. It is fascinating and fun.
SM:
Yes. Well, thank you for agreeing to do it and for spending so much time with me, as did Paul.
NC:
Okay.
SM:
Obviously, you are a great couple. I hope sometime when I come to the West Coast I can visit you guys because...
NC:
Okay.
SM:
After I talk with Paul and got to know him on the phone and everything, I consider him a friend, and now he is on my Facebook.
NC:
Oh.
SM:
Are you on Facebook too?
NC:
Yeah, sure.
SM:
You want to be a Facebook friend?
NC:
Absolutely.
SM:
I only have about 80 and...
NC:
Okay.
SM:
I am a very, I do not, and just some of my former students and then some former professional people, and so it has been great talking to you.
NC:
Same here.
SM:
And you have a great day.
NC:
Okay. You too.
SM:
And say hi to Paul.
NC:
Okay, I will.
SM:
Bye.
NC:
Okay, bye-bye.
(End of Interview)
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Title
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Interview with Nancy Cain
Contributor
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Cain, Nancy (Television producer) ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Video recording; Authors; Television producers and directors; Videofreex (Production company); Cain, Nancy (Television producer)--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PBS show <em>The 1990s</em> and the author of the book <em>Video Days</em>.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-02-12
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In copyright
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eng
Type
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.176a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.176b
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
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154:16
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8c4fde6e8ebdf5b35a2054f3eafac04a.pdf
e256969310a423c24455ee214fe170d2
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMTON
U N E V E R S I T Y
STATE U N I V E E S I T Y O F NEW Y O R K
v de o
[4
D E P A R T M E N T
Master ’s Kecit d
flmancfa Chmela, soprano
with
Dan Ibeling, tenor
and
Margaret Reitz, piano
Saturday, February 20, 2010
8:00 p.m.
Casadesus Recital Hall
�George Frideric Handel’s opera, Alciria, premiered in London at the new theatre at
Covent Garden in 1735. It ran for two seasons, but was not performed again until 1957,
when Franco Zeffirelli revived the work for Joan Sutherland. Many arias from early
Program
Tornami a vagheggiar
from Alcina.
.George Friderick Handel
(16851759)
Villanelle, Op. 7, no.1 ..
Sérénade ..
Hector Berlioz
(18031869)
Victor Hugo
Le Charme, Op.2, no.2.
Extase .
Four Moravian Duets, Op.20.
I. Promeny
II. Rozlouéeni
III. Chudoba
IV. Vufe sohaj, vuie
(18021885)
Ernest Chausson
(18551899)
........Henri Duparc
(18481933)
.Antonin Dvordk
(18411904)
Selige Nacht .
Six Elizabethan Songs .
I. Spring
II. Sleep
III. Winter
IV. Dirge
V. Diaphenia
VI. Hymn
Tornami a vagheggiar
Tornami a vagheggiar
Tornami a vagheggiar
Te solo vuol ulnar
Quest’ anima delel
Caro mio bene
Return to me to look upon (me) with love
My faithful soul wishes to love only you
G i l t i donai il mio cor
Fido sara ‘I mio amor
Mai ti sard crudel
Cara mia speme
(Return to me to look upon w ith love)
My dear beloved
Already to you I gave my heart
Faithful will be my love
1 will never be cruel to you
My dear hope
These French songs descri be love in four ways. “Villanelle” is from the larger work titled
Les Nuits d'été (Summer Nights) with poetry by Théophile Gautier (181 11872). Berlioz
wrote this cycle between 18401841 for voice and piano. While he wrote orchestration
for one of the pieces in 1843, he didn‘t begin orchestrating the remaining three until
1856. “Sérénade” was composed by Gounod in 1857 with text by Victor Hugo (1802
1885). “Le Charme” is from Chausson’s Sept Melodies, Op.2 (7 melod ies for voice and
piano), composed from 18791882, with the text for “Le Charme” written by Armand
Silvestre (18371901). “Extase” was composed by Duparc in 1874 with text by Jean
Lahor (18401909). Dupatc was extremely sel fcritical and destroyed many of his works
before they were released to public. Only 16 of his songs remain in circulation today, all
of them composed between 1868 and 1884.
Villanelle
Quand viendra Ia saison nouvelle,
Quand auront disparu les froids,
Tous les deux nous irons, ma belle,
wINTERMISSIONoa
Nocturne.
operas are not integrated into the plot and thus can be moved around, exchanged, and
even removed from a production without affecting the plot. A director would assign arias
based on a singer’s strengths. “Tornami a vagheggiar” has been sung by both the title
role, Alcina, and also by the character Morgana. While the stories were important, more
attention was given to the instrumentation.
. Joseph Marx
(18821964)
Joseph Marx
(18821964)
.Dominick Argento
(b. I 927)
Pour cueillir le mugue aux bois
Sous nos pieds égrénant les perles
Qie I’on voit au matin trembler,
Nous irons écouter lea merles siffler.
Le printemps est venu, ma belle,
C’ast le mois des amants beni.
Et I’oiseau satinmt son aile,
Dit sea vers au rebord du nid.
Oh! Viens donc sur ce banc de mousse
Pour parler de nos beaux a mours,
et dismoi de la voix si deuce, toujours!
Loin, bien loin égarant nos courses,
Faisons fuir Ie lapin cache,
Et le daim, au miroir dea sources
Admirant son grand bois penche;
Puis chez nous, tout heureux, tout aises,
En panniers, en lacant nos doigts
Revenons. rapportant des
fraises des boisl
Villanelle
When comes the season new,
Whai vanished the cold,
We shall go together, my beautiful,
To ytha the lilies inthe woods.
Our feet scattering pearls of dew
That are seen at morning trembling,
We shall go to hear the blackbirds warblmg
The spring has come, my beautiful,
I t is the month otloveis blessed,
And the bird preening its wing,
Sings a refrain on the edge of the nest.
OhI Come then to this bank ofmoss
To talk of the delights of our love,
And say to me in your sweet voice, forever!
Far, very far, straying from our paths,
Let us put to flight the hidden rabbit,
And the deer, in the mirror ofthe springs
Adminng its great bending antlers, Then
towards home, quite happy, quite contented,
With interlaced fingers for baskets
Let us return, bringing the strawberries from
the woods!
�Sérénade
Quand tu chantes bercee
Le soir entre mas bras
Entendstu ma paisee
Qui te repaid tout bas
Ton doux chant me rappelle
Les plus beaux de mesjours
Ah! Chantez ma belle toujours!
Quand tu ris sur ta boudte
L’amour s’epnouit
SWltalyousinguiled
érénade (Seernade)
lntheevminginmylrm
Doyouhearmythoudus
Thatanswerywverysoftly
Yoursweetsongranindsmeof
“fliemostbeauiful ofmydays
Ah! Singmybeautihilt‘weval
When you laugh, on your lips
The love blossoms
Et soudain le farouche
Soupgon s’evanouit
Ah! Le rire fidéle
Prouve un coeur sans detours
Ah! Riez ma belle toujours!
And suddenly the bitter
Suspicion vanishes
Ah! The laughter faithful
Shows a heart without guile
Ah! Laugh my beautiful forever!
Quand tu dors calme et pure
Duns I’ombre sous mes yeux
Ton haleine murmure
Des mots harmonieux
Ton beau corps se révéle
What you sleep, calm and pure
In the shade beneath my gaze
Your breath murmurs
With words harmonious
Your lovely body is revealed
Without veil and without finery
Ah! Sleep my beautiful forever!
Le Charme
Quand ton sourire me surprit,
Je sentis frémir tout mon étre,
Mais ce qui domptait mon esprit,
Je ne puis d’abord Ie connaitre.
Le Charme (T he Charm)
Sans voile et sans atours
Ah! Dormez ma belle toujours!
Quand ton regard tombs sur moi,
Je sentis mon ame se fondre,
Mais ce que serait cet emoi,
Je ne pus d’abord en repondre.
Ce qui me vainquit d jamais,
Ce fut un plus douloureux charme;
Et je n’ai su queje t’aimais,
Qu’en voyant ta premiere latme
Extase
When your smile surprised me,
1 felt quiver all my being,
But that which tamed my spirit,
1 could not at first recognize.
When your glance fell on me,
1 felt my soul melt,
But that which was this emotion.
I could not at first reply.
That which me vanquished forever,
That was a more sorrowful charm;
And I only knew that I loved you,
When I saw your first tear.
[Extase (Ecstasy)
Sur un lys pale
Mon coeur dort
D’un sommeil doux
Comme la mort
On a lily pale
My bean is sleeping
In a sleep sweet
As the death. ..
Mort exquise
Death exquisite,
Mort parfumee
Death perfumed
Du souffle de la bienaimée
By the breath ofthewell loved
Sur ton sein pale
Onyoursweetbruslpale
Myheartsleeps
Mon coeur dort
D’un sommeil doux
Comme la mort
lnasleepsweet
Aslheduth
Antonin Dvol‘ik‘s Moravian Duets, op. 20 was written during 18751876 for soprano (or
alto), and tenor. The texts for each of the four songs are drawn from traditional Czech
folk songs. In each ofthese, the text is a dialogue between a boy and a girl but is sung as
one continuing line of text by both singers, rather than exchanged as a dialogue.
No.1 Promény
Darmo se ty trapis,
mfij mily synetku,
Nenosim tebe,
No.1 Transformations
In vain you pine,
My clear sweaheart,
[don‘t carry you,
A j i tvoja nebudu
ani jednu hodini.
[don’t carry you in my heart;
And I won’t beyours
For even one hrmr.
copak sobe mysli3,
ma mila panenko,
Whatevuareyouthinking
Mydeargirl,
Rozmilé srdenko;
Darlingsweethfltt;
Nenosim v srdeelru,
Dyt ’ sit ty to moje
Foryouaremy
A ty musi§ byt ma
Lebo mi t& Pan Bah da
Andyoumuflbemine,
(khlordfiodwillgiveywtome
No2
. Rozlouceni
NaISvlg Farewell
Zatot‘. se mng, galanetko,
Na dobro noc do kola!
A ja se ti nezatotim,
Ja musim j lt do pola.
Do poletka sireho,
Nevidét tam Zidného.
Jenom vtaeka sokolitka,
Pana Boha sameho
Zatoe sat ty, galanetko,
Zatoc sa okolo miia,
Jako vtatek
larabuek okolo pha!
Udéel j koel tko,moaj,
Moaj, gaalnetko,
Bude$ moja
No.3 Chudoba
Ach, co je to za slavitek,
Co talr pelove, p&kné zpiva?
Ach, to je muj najmilejsl,
Ze mne se vysmiva.
Ty se ze mne nevysmivej,
Z chudobnej siroty.
Twirl around me, sweahean.
In a circle as a ‘good night!
And I won‘t twirl around you.
I must go to the field.
To the wide little field,
Where no one is in sight;
Only a little falcon
And the Lord God himself.
Twirl, sweetheart,
Twirl around me,
Like a little hawk
Around a tree trunk!
Make a little c ircle,
Circle, my sweetheart,
You will be mine
No.3 Poverty
Ah, what is that, like a nightingale,
What so nicely, nicely sings?
Ah, that is my cleared,
At me he mocks.
Don’t mock me,
Chot’ ja oerrum hdnych pawl,
Ani bdne Saty.
A poor orphan,
For I don’t have any money,
Nor any clothes.
Ty se ze mne nevysmivej,
Z chudobnej siroty,
Don‘t mock me,
a poor orphan,
Ani zadne Saty.
Not any clothes.
Jenom ten vinek zeleny,
Kery mam na hlavé,
Only this wreath green,
Kery mam na sob!
Which I have on myself.
Chot‘ ja nernarn hdnych penéz,
A etn jeden Suranedek,
For I don’t have any money,
Which I have on my head,
And this one dress,
�No.4 Vure Sohaj, vure
Vule sahaj, vule
V zelenym hohote,
Pohani’ konieka
Po hedbavne Knife
No.4 H e plows, the belavedplmvx
(The Last Wish)
He plows, the beloved plows
In green hill,
He drives little horse
With silk reins.
Ta snare hcdbavné
na pole strhand,
nevet, mila, nevel‘,
sak je laska plana.
That rein of silk
Rips on the field,
Don ’t believe, dear,
For his love is false
Never, milé, never,
Don’t believe, dear, don‘t believe
For you shouldn‘t believe
A false boy
who will go to the army.
(Der letzte wunsch)
A Sak nemas kerno
Suhajek falesné
Pojede na vojno.
Debech mela kona,
Sama bech s hemjela,
Aspon bech vidéla,
Kde bech zahynula.
ad a horse,
lrlh
I would go alone with him,
At least I would see
Where I would die.
A zahynuli ja,
Zahyneme vobé,
Jenom nas poloite
ill die,
And i fl w
we will both die,
Just put us
in one grave.
Do jedneho hroba,
Do jedné trohlice,
Bodé vo nas plakat
In one grave,
In one coffin,
The girls from Bystrc
will weep for us
Do jednoho hmbat
Bestrcké devcice.
Selige Nacht
lm Arm der Liebe
schliefen wir selig ein.
Am offnen Fenster
lauschte der Sommerwind,
und uns’rer Atemzuge
Frieden trug er hrnaus
in die helle Mondnacht.
Und aus dem Garten
tasteie zagend
sich ein Rosenduft
an uns’rer Liebe Bett
l
l
Sflfl duflende Lindenblnte
in quellender Juninacht.
Eme Wonne aus meinem Gemilite
ist mir in Sinnen erwacht.
Als klange vor meinen Ohren
Spring, the sweet Spring, is the year’s
pleasant king;
Then blooms each thing, then maids dance
in a ring.
Cold, doth not sting, the pretty birds to sing,
Cuckoo, jugjug, puwee, towittzwoo’
The palm and may make country houses
GAY,
Lambs frisk and play,the shepherd pipes all
Sweetly fragrant lindenblossoms
In the flowing Junenight.
A feeling of delight in my heart
Is awakened in my consciousness
als tone, die lange verloren,
die Jugend leise mn’lck
Sflfl duftende Lindenblilte
in quellender luninacht
Eine Wonne aus meinem Gemme
ist mir zu Schmerzen erwacht
Sweetly fragrant lindenblossoms
In the flowing Junenight.
A feeling ofdelight in my heart
Turns to pain within me
day.
And we hear ay birds tune this merry lay,
Cuckoo,jugjug, puwee, towittawoo!
.
i
I
Asleep we blissfully fell.
At the open window
Listened the summer wind,
And out breaths
Peacefulness carried it out
Into the bright moon light.
And out of the garden
Crept cautiously
A scent o f r oses
To our love bed
And gave us wonderful dreams.
Dreams of intoxication
So rich with yearning.
Dominick Argento earned his Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees at Peabody Conservatory
and went on to fulfill a Ph.D. from the Eastman School of Music. In 1957, Nicholas
DiVirgiIio, a friend and fellow student of Argento’s from Eastman, wrote Argento asking
him to compose some songs for his graduation recital. “I went to the bookstore...and
from the limited number of volumes of English poetry they had, I chose a group of six
poems of the Elizabethan era to set. The Elizabethan Songs – the very first work I
composed upon finishing graduate school – has turned out to be my most performed
piece. At present there are at least seven recordings (four American, one English, one
German, and one Australian), several of them done with the baroque ensemble
arrangement (which I prefer) instead of the original piano accompaniment.”
Thomas Nash (15671601)
Nocturne
in my ears
As i f rang
softly the song cfhappiness,
echoing softly,
the long lost song ofyouth
leise das Lied vorn G lick,
Traume des Rausches
So reich an Sehnsucht.
1. Spring
By the time ofhis death at age 82, Joseph Marx had written 150 Lieder in addition to his
many orchestral, chamber, choral, piano, and organ works. Marx spent 43 years as a
professor, during which he taught 1255 students composition, harmony and counterpoint.
In an interview, Marx stated that he wrote lieder because “it was the fashionable thing to
do.” He wrote “Nocturne” in 1911 and “Selige Nacht” in 1912, both set to text by the
German poet and dramatist, Otto Erich Hartleben (1 8641 905).
Nocturne
und gab uris wundervolle Trnume
Selige Nacht (Blessed Night)
In the arm of love
The fields breath sweet, the daisies kiss our
feet
Young lovers meet, old wives asunning sit,
In every street these tunes our ears do greet
Cuckoo, jujug, puwee, Towittawoo!
Spring‘ the sweet Spring’
11. Sleep
Sam uel Daniel (15621691)
From Delia
Sonnet XLV.
Carecharmer sleep, son of the sable Night,
Brother to Death, In si ent darkness born,
Relieve my anguish and restore thy light;
With dark forgetting of my care return
And let the day be time enough to morn,
The shipwreck of my illadventured youth:
Let waking eyes suffice to wail their scorn,
Without the torment of the night’s untruth
Cease, dreams, the images of daydesires,
To model forth the passions of the morrow:
Never let rising Stm approve you liars,
To add more grief to aggravate my sorrow:
Still let me sleep, embracing clouds in vain;
And never wake to feel the day’s disdain.
111. Winter
Wllliam Shakespeare
(15681616)
From “Love’i Labour’s Lost”
When icicles hang by the wall,
And Dick the shepherd blows his nail,
And Tom bears logs into the hall,
And milk comes frozen home in pail;
When blood is nipt and ways be foul,
Then nightly sings the starring owl,
Tuwhitl Tuwhoo! A merry note!
While greasy Joan Doth keel the pot
When all aloud the wind doth blow,
And coughing drowns the person’s saw,
And birds sit brooding in the snow,
And Marian’s nose looks red and raw,
When roasted crabs hiss in the bowl,
Then nightly sings the starring owl,
Tuwhit! Tuwhool A merry note!
While greasy Joan doth keel the pot
�IV. Dirge
‘Wiliam Shakespeare
(15681616)
Come away, come away, Death
Andin udcypvuslemebeln id;
Fly away, Fly away, breath
Iam slain by a fair cruel maid.
My shroud ofwhite stuck all with yew,
O prepare it!
Mypcrtot’death,monesomie
Did share it
Not a flower, not a flower sweet
On my black coffin let there be strown;
Not a friend, not a friend greet
My poor corpse where by bones shall be
thrown
A thousand thousand sighs to save,
Lay me, o where
Sad true lovers never find my grave
To weep there!
V. Diaphenia
Henry Constable (1555216102)
Diaphenia, like the dnffidown dilly,
Whiteas lhesulL fairas Ihelily,
Heigh ho, how do I love thee!
I do love thee as my lambs
Are beloved of their damns!
How blest were I if thou would’st prove me!
Dinpheniu like the spreading roses,
That in thy sweets all sweets encloses,
Fair sweet, how I do love thee!
I do love thee as each flower
loves the sun’s livegiving power,
For dead, thy breath to life might move me.
Diaphenia like to all things blessed
When all thy praises are expressed
Dear joy, how I do love thee!
As the birds do love the spring,
Or the bees their careful king:
Then in requite, sweet virgin, love me!
Abou t the Performers:
VI. Hymn
Ben Joh nson (15721637)
Queen and huntress, chaste and fair,
Now the sun is laid to sleep,
Seated in thy silver chair,
State in wonted manner keep
Hesperus entreats thy light,
Goddess excellently bright
Earth, let not thy envious shade
Dare itself to interpose;
Cynthia’s shining orb was made
Heaven to clear when day did close
Bless us than with wished sighL
Goddess excellently bright.
Lay thy bow of pearl apart,
And thy crystalshining quiver,
Give unto the flying hart
Space to breathe, how shun soever,
Thou that mak’st a day ol’nighL
Goddess excellently bright.
flmanda Chmela, soprano
Originally from Lindenhurst. New York, Ms Chmela is currently pursuing a
Master’s in Opera Performance under the direction of Mary Burgess. She is also
a member of the TriCities Opera Resident Artist Training Program. Roles with
TriCities include Gretel (Hansel and Gretel), Barbarina (Le Nozze di Figaro),
Ms. Pinkerton (The Old Maid and the Thief), Page (Amalfl and the Night
Visitors), and Page (Rigoletto). Upcoming performances include the role of
Ciesca (Gianni Schicchi), and as the soprano soloist in Honegger’s King David
with the Binghamton University Chorus and Orchestra. During the summer of
2009, she performed with the CRS Barn Studio as Edith (Pirates of Penzance)
and with the Summer Savoyards as Josephine (H MS Pinafore).
Ms. Chmela received her undergraduate degree in Musical Theatre from SUNY
Fredonia where she stud ied under Julie Newell. She performed the roles of Ann
(A Little Night Music), the Sandman (Hansel and Gretel), and Mrs. Cratchit (A
Christmas Carol), in addition to several scenes programs, a commence ment eve
concert, and performance trips to both Italy (2008) and Japan (2006).
Dankflfieling, tenor
Dan Ibeling is from Roselle, Illinois, and is currently pursuing his Masters of
Opera degree with Binghamton University under the direction of Profs.
Skrabalak and Sicilian, and is also a member of the TriCities Opera Resident
Artist Training Program . Over the last two seasons, he has appeared as Borsa in
Rigaletta, Kaspar in Amahl and the Night Visitors, Don Curzio in Le nozze di
Figaro, and Spoletta in Tosca. Upcoming performances include the title role in
Honegger’s King David with the Binghamton University Chorus and Orchestra,
and Gherardo in Gianni Schicchi at TCO. Dan has also been an apprentice with
the Des Metro Opera, and spent a summer in Graz, Austria studying at the
American Institute of Musical Studies. Dan received his B.A. in Music from the
evada, Las Vegas.
University o fN
Margaret Reitz, pianist
Ms. Reitz is a native of the Binghamton Area. She received her Bachelor and
Master of Music degrees in piano performance with accompanying emphasis.
She attended Boston University, New England Conservatory and Binghamton
University. She has studied piano with Jean Casadesus, Victor Rosenbaum,
Seymour Fink and Walter Ponce and accompanying with Allen Rogers. She has
accompanied throughout the United States, in England, South America, Spain
and at the American Institute of Musical Studies in Graz, Austria. She was a
winner of the Artistic Ambassadors Program by the United States Information
Agency in partnership with the John F. Kennedy Center for the performing arts.
She was an official accom panist for the MTNA State and Eastern Divrsion
Competition held at Ithaca College. She has bee n a guest chamber music artist in
�Morges, Switzerland. She also was selected to attend the Accompanying
Workshop for Singers and Pianists held at Northwestern University with
Chicago Lyric Opera Faculty and Coaches. She was recently invited to the
International Clarinet Con ference to play a recital in Tok yo, Japan. She was a
guest artist on the Cornell Summer Series. She was an official pianist at the
lntemational Double Reed Competition and Convention in 2007 at Ithaca
College and was invited to play the 2009 Convention in Birmingham, England
with the Glickman Ensemble. She was selected to accompanying at the
Interpretation o f Spanish Music in conjunction with University o f Madrid in
Grenada, Spain coached by Teresa Berganza and at Marines School o f Music
summer 2008. She was a Guest Artist playing two concerts in Granada, Spain
this past summer and accom panied the Barcelona Song F estival in July. She is
the pianist for Theater Street Productions performing concerts in Lenox, Mass
and Newport Rhode Island this fall.
She is currently on the faculty at Binghamton University since 1991 and Ithaca
College School of Music since 1999. She is on the Executive Board of the New
York District MTNA organization, She is President of the local District VII
Music Teachers Association and is an active adjudicator for the National Piano
Guild Organization.
Musica Nova
Coordina ted by Mary Burgess and Timothy LeFebvre
w ith pianis ts Margaret Reitz and William J a mes La w son
N
ew Composto
ins for Vocie
Binghamton University Music Department ’s
UPCOMING E V E N TS
aS D e a s
Sunday, February 21” Mus/ca Nova: New Combos/hons for Voice
3:00 PM, Anderson Center Chamber Hall, $$
Satur day, February 2 7 ” Master’s Rec/[ah Daniel [be/lug, tenor,
8:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Thursday, March 4 ” MidDay Concert, 1 :20 PM – FREE
Casadesus Recital Hall
Thursday, March 4 ” Friedheim Memonla/ Lecture/Recital Series:
Schumann (Mobius), 8:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, $$
(FREE for students, 100 maximum tickets)
Satur day, March 6 ” University Symphony Orchestra: Concerto &
Aria Concert, 8:00 PM, Osterhout Concert meater, $$ (FREE for
students)
Sunday, M arch 7 ” ' Wind Symphony, 3:00 PM FREE
Anderson Center Chamber Hall
Thursday, March 11‘" MidDe y Concert, 1 :20 PM – FREE
Casadesus Recital Hall
Sunday, March 1 4 ” Ewa Mackiewla Wolfe: 1810 – 2010, A Chop/n
Celebration, 3:00 PM, Anderson Center Chamber Hall, $$
Thursday, March 1 8 ” Mid0a y Concert, 1:20 PM FREE
Casadesus Recital Hall
7
Thursday, March 1 8 ” Harpur Chorale and Women s’ Chums,
8:00 PM, Anderson Center Chamber Hall, FREE
Sun, Fepruarrill
y at 30m
BINGHAMTON
” " ‘ " ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ' '
Anderson Center Chamber Hall
For tickets. call (607) 777ARTS.
S
u
a
For ticket information, please call the
Anderson Center Box Office at 777ARTS
To see all events, please visit music. binghamton. edu
Become a fan on Facebook by visit/fig
Binghamton University Music Department
�
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Coverage
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1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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In copyright.
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1 audio disc
Duration
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55:19:00
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145162">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145162</a>
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Amanda Chmela, master's recital, February 20, 2010
Recital Tape 2010-2-20
Description
An account of the resource
Works by Handel, Berlioz, Hector, Hugo, Chausson, Duparc, Dvorak, Marx, Argento. Held at 8:00 p.m., February 20, 2010, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Creator
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Chmela, Amanda
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-02-20
Rights
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In copyright
Type
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sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3b7fb618df7aee331d3c759314624e6c.jpg
eea6275ef0620223761107fcf03eff73
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a8c85b626dde92be81e3ed4b03f8f410.mp3
095ac0432f1e4faaa17d5e7f7ed5a119
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-02-22
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Patti Cassidy
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; 1960s; Political Correctness; Activism; Government trust; George W. Bush; Bill Clinton; late 1940s-1950s; Civil Rights Movement; 19770s; Sanctuary Movement"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":2,"4":{"1":2,"2":13689059}}">Baby boom generation; 1960s; Political Correctness; Activism; Government trust; George W. Bush; Bill Clinton; late 1940s-1950s; Civil Rights Movement; 19770s; Sanctuary Movement</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
165:33
Subject LCSH
Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Political activists--United States; Cassidy, Patti--Interviews
Biographical Text
Patti Cassidy is a playwright and producer. She wrote her first play on a dare in a Mexican border town in southern Arizona. From then on her work has been produced from LA to Paris. Cassidy currently is co-producing a series of readings of plays in the greater Boston area. She has a Bachelor's degree in English Language and Literature from SUNY Albany.
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Patti Cassidy
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 22 February 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:04):
You are going here.
PC (00:00:04):
Okay.
SM (00:00:06):
I have got lots of questions to ask you, but some of them will be a little different than David, and some will be the same that David got.
PC (00:00:11):
Okay. David, whether they are all the same or-
SM (00:00:14):
Well, the first question. When I looked at your website, I am pretty fascinated by the fact that your experiences are pretty diverse. And before we even get into specifics about the boomers, it is about boomer lives, when you say that you grew up in New York State and then you lived in the Arizona Desert and the New England Island-
PC (00:00:33):
Right.
SM (00:00:34):
... that is given you a diffuse and eclectic experience of the United States, was that when you were young? Was that during your early years?
PC (00:00:42):
No, I grew up in upstate New York, and I was up there until I was 20 something, 25. And then, the man that I ended up marrying, he and I did that great American go and find out if there was a better place to live kind of thing. And we ended up in Arizona, and that was in the 1970s. So, when I was 25. And we lived there down there, first, in Tucson, and then moved up into the mountains and did the homesteading thing, and that was total 27 years. And then, I moved back here to Boston because it was time to come home. And by that time I was divorced. And then, I met David, and he, of course, was on an island in Narragansett Bay. So, that is now. Excuse me.
SM (00:01:48):
Was there anything about your upbringing as a child that you wanted to explore America, you wanted to see more than just growing up in New York?
PC (00:01:58):
No. Just to put it bluntly, travel. Our vacations were either in Western Pennsylvania where my family's family came from, or it was in Maine, Kennebunkport, actually. And that was fine. And I did not have the wanderlust. I did not particularly have any reason to want to travel. Although when my aunt went to Greece, she was a classic professor. When she went to Greece and showed me pictures of, well, this is the crossroads where Oedipus met his father, that started to spark something. That was when I was about 12 or 13, but it was not very strong until college basically. And the year I dropped out of college to buy a motorcycle and travel across the country-
SM (00:02:55):
Wow.
PC (00:02:56):
... by myself, I went to drop out, and my guidance counselor said, "Do you know that 25 percent of your class has dropped out here?"
SM (00:03:06):
Now, what school was this?
PC (00:03:07):
That was State University of New York at Albany.
SM (00:03:09):
Oh, okay.
PC (00:03:10):
And that was the years, and that is the way things were happening.
SM (00:03:16):
And what year was that?
PC (00:03:19):
That was 1968.
SM (00:03:22):
Oh, that was a big year.
PC (00:03:23):
That was a huge year.
SM (00:03:26):
Yeah. Yeah. So, you traveled around the country. What was that like? Share a little bit about that year.
PC (00:03:32):
Well, that trip, I was a young girl, and I have always been young looking for my age. So, I looked like I was 12 or something, riding around. Basically, I got as far as Nebraska before I turned around and went back. But I was alone. I was on a motorcycle. I had a Honda 350, and it looked like a mini Harley. And it was just interesting for me to feel the sense of freedom. The people I met. I remember in Illinois somewhere, I had run a stop light or a stop sign, which I had not seen. But this cop pulled me over, and I took my helmet off and my hair fell down because it was long hair. And he was flabbergasted that there was this girl going by herself. And he said, "What are you doing?" And I said, "Well, I am taking a spike across the country and seeing what I can see." And he said, "Well, that is amazing because I had always wanted to do something like that." And he poured his heart out about how he had always wanted to go on trips like that, but he never had the nerve. And so, that was pretty neat. And then, there were a lot of people who told me, "You be careful. You were driving by yourself. You were going alone by yourself." And I really did not feel afraid. That is the thing, I was not a particularly brave kind of a girl or a tomboy even. It was just something that I wanted to do. And of course, I'd seen your basic easy rider, and I had been reading a little bit of Kerouac. Not a lot.
SM (00:05:32):
On the road.
PC (00:05:33):
On the road. So, basically I was becoming more and more interested in seeing, "Well, what is this? There is got to be something outside of Albany." And so, that is when I started to take trips.
SM (00:05:52):
Well, 1968, obviously, your brother-in-law has written a great book about it, but it is a historic year in so many ways. And the way your brother-in-law talked about it is there were things leading up to it. There were historic events and happenings that played a very important part in that year, even before that year. But when you looked at America in 1968, obviously, if you were on the road on a motorcycle, you may not have been watching television as much as others. We had the assassinations that year of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy, Johnson resigned and was not going to run again as president. We had the Tet situation in Vietnam, and then obviously the conventions and the confrontation in Chicago.
PC (00:06:36):
Oh, I paid a lot of attention.
SM (00:06:38):
Yeah. When you were going across the country, were you talking to people? Were people talking about it in restaurants or wherever you were stopping?
PC (00:06:49):
No, I did not really hear much about it. I was only on the road for, I think, three weeks because, as I say, by the time I got out to Nebraska, I said I am going home. And I tended to be a fairly shy person. But what I saw, basically, all the way across country, as I say I never felt fear. I really did not feel afraid at any time. And I saw, I guess, what I expected to see. I saw people who dressed like I did, even in the Midwest. I did not find it a foreign land, which I was thinking that I would have. But as far as discussing the situation with people I did not know, no, I cannot really say that I heard a lot of discussions going on in diners or anything like that. Right.
SM (00:07:50):
Right. Do you look at your growing up years as a female boomer, which is obviously different than a male boomer. Do you feel that a female boomers' experiences were really totally different?
PC (00:08:06):
I do not know that they were totally different. I think they were different in the way you related to what you learned. I do not think that we had the feeling of we can go out, or I can only speak to myself. I did not have a feeling that, oh, I could go out and ride a motorcycle. Oh, I could go out and overturn the government. Oh, I can go out and do all of these things. And yet, as the years went on, I did start to feel that power during that period. I did really feel like, oh, I can do all these things. It was a very empowering time for me as a woman. And one of the big things, and I wondered if you were going to be talking about it, was birth control.
SM (00:08:53):
Yes.
PC (00:08:54):
That was just phenomenal. And it was the biggest change. Now, I grew up a staunch Catholic gal, and of course the idea of, A, birth control and, B, needing it, we were out of the question. But once the hippie years started, and I started getting involved with people, and then all of a sudden you have got birth control on top of it, which meant you did not have the biggest consequence that you had to worry about, it made me feel totally free. And at that point, I think I really wanted to try to experiment more. I really wanted to take advantage of the freedoms that guys had traditionally had that you had to be more careful when you were a girl. Suddenly, there was this thing that made it be, oh, you do not have to be as careful because you're not going to have to get pregnant. And so, that made a really huge difference. But as far as growing up, I did feel limited. I did feel very much like there was a role to play. You go to school, you get married, you have kids, and you do that thing. I was not happy with that role. That really did not seem to fit me. But because of the way things were. Now, I thought I would be a nun, actually, rather than a mother, because, if you were a Catholic kid, that was your other option. But I did not feel like there were very many options until the (19)60s came along, when all of a sudden things cracked open and you suddenly realize, yeah, I do have a lot of different options. I could ride a motorcycle, or I could be a writer, or I could be all of these things. It was almost overwhelming.
SM (00:10:52):
Yeah. You mentioned the pill. One of the questions someplace and on my list here is a question that I was going to ask regarding what were the major happenings or events that really affected you as a female boomer during the time that you were young? And when I say young, I am also talking about your elementary school years, your high school, your college, in the twenties, thirties, into the (19)40s, because I consider that young. So, we are talking about the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and the (19)80s. I am really looking at those periods.
PC (00:11:28):
Okay.
SM (00:11:29):
So, obviously the pill was very important. Was the sexual revolution a myth? Or was there truth to it?
PC (00:11:37):
I do not know. No, I do not think the sexual revolution was a myth at all. You suddenly had people who, well, as I just mentioned, the pill was so huge because you had one group of the population saying it is possible to do this and not have to deal with, oh, I am going to have a baby. I am going to have to take care of it. Or I cannot do anything that I really want to with my boyfriend because, et cetera. So, you had that freedom. At that point, there was not a whole lot of venereal disease problems that could not be fixed by a shot of penicillin. And so, that was another issue. Everybody I knew was involved. And remember, I was basically in a pretty middle-class situation. Standard, good Catholic, strong background situation. But I would say by 1972, it was just an arbitrary date, came around, almost everybody I knew was having full relationships with guys. I mean, our parents were tearing their hair out. But basically, none of my generation had a problem with, yes, she was living with so-and-so, or they are getting together every weekend, or whatever. You just did not even think about it. It just flew over the top of your head.
SM (00:13:10):
How important was Roe v. Wade with women, too?
PC (00:13:15):
Roe v. Wade was very important. And at the time that that decision was made, I was very happy that the freedom came along. But I ended up rethinking in the 1980s, the late (19)80s, I started rethinking my position about it. And that was actually due to a remark that was made a man that I really respected by the name of Nat Hentoff. I do not know if you know him.
SM (00:13:51):
Nat Hentoff. That name rings a bell.
PC (00:13:55):
He was actually a jazz critic for the Village Voice and a very smart guy. And he started doing some investigation, basically, to decide how he felt about the abortion issue. And he came up with some conclusions that, when I read them, I said I do not want to be pro-life. I do not want to be pro-life. I want to continue to be pro-choice because it goes along with my anti-war stance and everything else. But the more I thought about it, the more I got back to first causes, the more I felt I had to change my decision on that. And basically, I tried not even to say very much about what I believed, because I knew everybody would look at me like I have got a third head.
SM (00:14:48):
Betty Friedan, of course, was one of the big writers of that period, and she wrote many books dealing with women. And she used to always say that the mothers, which our parents, the mothers of the boomers, were basically very unfulfilled in the late forties and the (19)50s, and when they raised the kids. Do you feel this is true? I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly this past week in Washington.
PC (00:15:15):
Oh, wow.
SM (00:15:16):
And she said that that was nothing but propaganda, that women love being homemakers, and that women were fulfilled in raising their kids. So, there is a lot of different points of view here. But do you feel that your mother, the mothers of the (19)50s, were unfulfilled because they were home being homemakers as opposed to working?
PC (00:15:41):
My mother personally did not have a real problem with it. She was very ill. She had heart condition, and so she was not a real go-getter to go out and have a career or anything. But I cannot really agree with Phyllis Schlafly. There were a lot of hamstrung women. There were a lot of women who wanted more than what they could have that I saw that when the was made available to them to go out and work or to do more things than be a mom and be consistently tied to your kids. There were a lot of divorces that happened around then, I remember. And sometimes, they actually bought the wrong product. Freedom meant getting a job, but getting a job might be a file clerk, and that was, certainly, not even as fulfilling as being a mom. So, sometimes they did not think it through. But I cannot really say that I agree with her just based on my own personal observation. A lot of women that I talked to that I knew were frustrated, that they were very glad to add to their roles, they were glad for the opportunity to try to do different things.
SM (00:17:12):
Yeah. That was an interesting time because a lot of women had worked during World War II when the men went off to war. There were a lot of women in the war, but that is where women really worked. And I can remember my mom was a tremendous secretary. And then, when my dad came home from the war, she gave all that up to raise the kids. And I had never even thought of asking her once we started moving off into the world whether she felt fulfilled after all those years. She raised kids.
PC (00:17:40):
Is she still around now?
SM (00:17:42):
No, she passed away in 1998.
PC (00:17:45):
Oh, okay.
SM (00:17:46):
And I never even asked my dad who passed away in 2002 some of these issues. I wish I could have asked them. But that was a big issue because the Equal Rights Amendment, of course, was defeated in the early (19)70s and the mid-(19)70s, and Phyllis Schlafly was a very important reason why it was defeated.
PC (00:18:09):
Right. As a matter of fact, I just finished reading a book called, it was not The Way We Were. It is, The Way Things Were, I think. And basically, it tells about the way things were for women in the early (19)60s all the way up to now. And it does not try to be a polemic. It does not try to say, "Oh, this was terrible." It just said, "This is what happened." And one thing that she mentioned that I had forgotten all about is that, financially, I had to have a male's signature to start my bank account, to start my checking account, I had to have my dad's signature. And credit cards. I looked into getting a credit card. I did not get it. But basically, you have to have a man sign for you. And I had forgotten all about that because, basically, it really did hamstring you. Again, it was that whole feeling of you really did not have the power because, in fact, you had to get the permission, even in the 1970s when I wanted to have a tubal ligation, I had to have my husband.
SM (00:19:25):
Wow.
PC (00:19:26):
I could not just do that on my own say so. They said, "Well, your husband has to sign the papers." He was not happy about that. He said, "Well, it's her body. She should do what she wants."
SM (00:19:36):
Right.
PC (00:19:37):
And they said, "No, you are her husband, so you have to sign.”
SM (00:19:41):
Well, one of the things that the women's movement talked about, Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug, I was looking up some of the quotes, and that is that they felt that women were unfulfilled. And to this day, Mrs. Schlafly believes that this propaganda continues, and they need to move on. So, anyways, that is just a little side note. Now, you're a very artistic person, obviously, because I looked at your background, and were doing films and writing and so forth and sculpture.
PC (00:20:21):
Right.
SM (00:20:22):
Do you feel that this area of interest had anything to do with reinventing yourself, which is a quality so many boomers felt. I know, even in Charles's book, he talks about this business of a concept, and a lot of people wanted to reinvent themselves. They did not want to be like their parents. Their parents were part of a generation that ended a war. Of course, beat two really bad, at that time, very bad countries that were doing terrible things. But when the war ended, they came home. And a lot of people in the boomer generation were upset that this was a generation that also created the atomic bomb, and that they wanted to be different, and they wanted to reinvent themselves. Do you feel that anything you have done in your life was not that you did not disrespect your parents, but you did not want to be like them? You wanted to reinvent yourself and be your own person?
PC (00:21:29):
It is an interesting question because I am constantly reinventing myself. I think that, basically, the way I chose to run my life, I knew I had to kick against the belief because you had not only, basically, GI parents. Well, my father was even farther back. He was born in 1904. He was old when I was born. But it was not so much that I wanted to be something different than they were, but I wanted to be something different than what the world expected of me because it did not fit. Like I said, the housewife with the kids, that never did fit me. I wanted the freedom to do that. Let me think for just a second. I think that it was all about experimenting. It was all about experiments. And one thing we were lucky enough, as a generation, to have cheap education. We could all go to college or almost everybody could go to school. And so, we had a lot of opportunities to explore ideas and possibilities. And with me, I read tons of poetry. I met a lot of people who were involved mostly in the writing game. And so, basically, I wanted to try that out. I wanted to try those [inaudible 00:23:12]. So, as far as reinvention, reinventing the traditional roles, yeah, but not necessarily in opposition to my parents, but just to try it out.
SM (00:23:26):
Yeah, you are a boomer. What is your overall feelings about your generation? It is interesting. Even if you look at the books, they cannot even come up with the exact number of boomers, anywhere from 70 to 78 million. That is quite a discrepancy. But I have seen many different quotes. 70, 74, 78 million. What are your thoughts on your generation, not only when you were young, but have you changed your opinions of them as you have grown older and as they have grown older? And in terms of some of the qualities they possess, a lot of them had this idealism that was a very important part of the generation. There was a feeling of community where, whether it be a cause, people could come together and believe and fight for justice. Or have strong feelings toward a particular issue, and they knew that other people felt that way. So, a sense of community, and there was also a sense of movements, many movements, that you felt a sense of empowerment, that an individual could make a difference, that the individual was important. But you had not only community, but you had the importance of individual freedom of speech. And that, finally, my views, and I can make a difference in this world. So, what are your overall feelings of your generation when you were young, and as you have grown older?
PC (00:24:59):
Basically, starting, when you are saying, when I was young as a kid, I do not think I had that much of a feeling as a child. But as I got older, and this is a point where my husband and I diverge. I am proud of the boomers. I am proud of what we did. At that point, I was, although every once in a while my contemporaries would irritate me because they were self-righteous. But they were questioning. I mean, there was this whole thing about our generation questioned everything. And sometimes it got silly, and sometimes it led into weird places. But in fact, at least they were questioning, at least they were saying, "Well, what is this?" And they were trying to make an alternative to basically the gray corporate world, which is what we grew up in, and the world where everybody had a standard that they had to tow the line or else the left out or called weird or whatever. At last, people were saying, "Okay, we do not have to do this. We can do some other things. We can try other situations." And I was proud of that. I was very happy to be a part of that. And I still think that boomers get a bad rap. Everybody goes, "Oh, my God. Look how it turned out, and look how terrible they are. And look at how greedy and grasping they are. And look at all the things that went wrong." Well, you know what? It may have gone wrong with a lot of them, but also with a lot of people, it did not, I mean, just in the church, and I will go back to that because that was most familiar. I mean, there were things that were done that made it more understandable and accessible to more people. The whole divorce thing, the whole, they call them, street priests. I mean, priests actually going out into the street and helping kids, like juvenile delinquents and stuff. I think we did a good job of what we did, which was questioning all the basic assumptions and saying, "Do they work or do not they? What can we tear apart?" Sometimes, we got to be tearing apart for the hell of it. In fact, I always felt when I saw somebody my age, I knew pretty much, or I felt that I knew pretty much, what I could expect. And that did do a bonding thing for me. As I said, I did not approve of a lot of stuff they did, because sometimes I felt that they were too self-righteous. And sometimes I felt they were silly. But in fact, the situation was that somebody had to go questioning this stuff or else was going to go on forever as far as we could see.
SM (00:27:56):
You mentioned some of the things that you felt were weaknesses. What do you consider some of the strengths and weaknesses? I have had people that will not answer this question because they said, "I cannot answer a question for 74 million different individuals."
PC (00:28:09):
Well, that is true.
SM (00:28:11):
And so, based on your experiences, though, and the boomers that you knew, what do you consider their strengths and their weaknesses?
PC (00:28:24):
Well, I will start out with the weaknesses. The weaknesses were that they did tend, when they grabbed on to something, to be a little self-righteous. And as far as today goes, I do not think that we are as self-righteous anymore. I really do not. And I think that that may be why we fall apart, why we went from being a group to being a bunch of individuals. So, I think that the self-righteousness was probably a weakness. Another thing was that because we were so curious about everything. We wanted to bring in, say, Caribbean poetry of the 18th century as a course to be taught in colleges as opposed to just the straight cannon. It got a little bit silly, some of the stuff. So, those I think are the weaknesses. I think as far as the strengths go, I see it as a strength to question everything. To basically say, "This is not working. What can we do? Let us go down to first causes. Let us really get behind it." Think of all the teach-ins. These were not just demonstrations where people say, "Oh, let us go out and club a few heads." Or, "Let us go out and dance in the streets." They said, "Let us have teach-ins. Let us find out what the truth is behind things." And I think that was a real strength of my generation. I am happy that they did that. And I am also happy with the hippie movement. Although again, it got to be something other. It got to be probably too much in the world of drugs. We lost too many people that way. The fact that, again, they were trying to experiment and trying to put it into action, put your theories into action. Go out and reject, I do not know if you remember this. There was that big thing about the culture of death. The ruling culture is the culture of death. Let us be the culture of life. They really did give it a whack. They really did. It was not this violent thing that you see going on now. Oh, how do you rebel against the establishment now is get a zip gun. Back then, it was just tell them to do their own thing and drop out.
SM (00:31:00):
A critic of that view maybe, I am from the era, too. So, I know.
PC (00:31:10):
Oh, good.
SM (00:31:10):
But my opinions do not mean anything in this book. The key thing here is there were people that used drugs to get away from the reality of the world they were seeing. And if they wanted to be the change agents for the betterment of society, did not they want to be sober or off drugs to be able to deal with this? Experimentation is one thing, but to be thought upon as legitimate people who care deeply about changing the world, why get on drugs? So, I am just being a critic here.
PC (00:31:47):
No, I understand. And I have a complicated relationship with that, too, because I must admit, I experimented just like people did. I always held a job and everything like that. I mean, it never got in the way of that. But you may be talking about two different people. Basically, you have got some people who say, okay, let us try to change the world with tutoring, classes after school, tutoring of classes, working in the slums, doing that sort of thing. You have got other people who are experimenting with themselves and they are saying, "What will it take? What if I try this drug?" Particularly the hallucination. "What if I take this drug? What will happen to me?" So, they're exploring themselves. You do not necessarily have the same person doing two different things. Some people would try to change society, some people would try to change themselves, and some people were just not interested in changing anything.
SM (00:32:56):
Well, we know that we lost some great musicians to drugs, and that is just well known and documented. Do you have any personal experiences of friends or peers or fellow college students or people that lost their life or were totally destroyed by being involved in drugs? Do you have any anecdotes or stories?
PC (00:33:19):
Let me think about that. Basically, everybody I knew took drugs to one degree or another, anywhere from pot to heavier stuff. I did not have any personal experience with anybody I know dying from drugs. One girl, her parents sent her to an asylum because she was very whacked out. And I certainly saw a lot of meltdowns, but at that point, we were all taking care of our own.
SM (00:33:58):
Well, I think, one day, someone, if they could write a book. There has never been a book written about it. One day someone, if they could write a... there has never been a book written about it. Of course how do you document it? But you have to find boomer parents who lost kids and most boomer parents are passing away now.
PC (00:34:10):
Who, the people who died from drugs?
SM (00:34:14):
Yeah, because it is a story... we know about these personalities who died from drugs, but the question is, we read that so many lives were destroyed. And who are these people whose lives were destroyed? Who are they?
PC (00:34:30):
Exactly.
SM (00:34:31):
And no one was ever really done a book on it, like an interviewing. I wish I was 25 years younger now talking to boomer parents about losing their son or daughter because it would be a great story in terms of students not getting involved in drugs today. A couple things. When Newt Gingrich came into power in 1994, and obviously when George Will does a lot of his writing in his books and comms, they love to take shots at the (19)60s generation or the boomers that grew up after World War II. And they look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s when boomers were young and say, a lot of the problems we have in our society today go right back to that era, which includes the skyrocketing divorce rate, the no commitment with between... in relationships, the ism culture, which is everybody's a victim and nobody takes it by their bootstraps to help themselves. The drug culture, the sexual revolution, sexual morays, whether it be through movies or the way people lived and all the other things. They love to take shots at the generation for all the problems that are in America today. I know it's very generalized, but it has been documented and they're not the only ones. There has been a lot of books written about even the issue that what is going on in universities today. The troublemakers of the (19)60s are the professors of today, and that is why the universities are destroyed with political correctness and women's studies programs and gay studies and Native American studies, everything studies and only caring about their own particular culture. Your thoughts on these criticisms that people do have about things that they felt began when boomers were young and then they have carried it on in their adult lives.
PC (00:36:34):
And that is part of this whole blame the boomers for everything culture that is arisen. We had a conversation at home just the other night about this whole attitude toward people. Yeah, well, something is wrong, it must be the boomers. Boomers are really horrible people. They did all this. You know what, it is every generation does the same thing. As far as the diversity of people who were women's studies, Native American studies, that kind of studies, I will say that that came during that period. That you started looking out and saying, is history in fact only name states and of the ruling powers and war studies and peace studies and diplomacy studies, or do other [inaudible] of the population have a story in itself too. And to what degree should that be recognized. Political correctness used as... this is only my opinion, but has been used as a piece of propaganda against the left when in fact you will see the same kind of thing going on in the right. And I am not going to go any farther with that because I do not have any name states and facts that I can do that. But I think that, I do not think that all the political correctness battles have been entirely a problem of the left. And them too, I do not see them blaming the right-wing boomers because there were right wing boomers. You had the young Republicans, you had-
SM (00:38:17):
Young Americans for Freedom.
PC (00:38:19):
Exactly. You had that whole rule. But you see absolutely no criticism of those guys. You only see criticisms of the left. Why is that? Because who is doing the criticism? Well, you have got your Newt Gingrich not known as a left-wing pundit. I would tend to look carefully at whether they are saying it is the boomers or it is the left that is making all of these problems. And who's doing the criticism? Is it the left that is doing the criticism or is it the right? If it is all across the board, then you have got something to look at.
SM (00:38:57):
See, I think the critics... it has been explained to me by some of the people I have interviewed that it is really the 15 percent of the activists who were really involved in any of the movements at that time that they are really critical of. And sometimes they are not critical of the whole generation because, again, one of the things of the criticisms is that, well, only 15 percent of the boomers were really involved in any kind of an activism. We are really talking about the new left and the anti-war and all the people who are involved in all those different movements. That is what they... they try to redefine it that way. Not the whole generation of 85 percent that never involved in anything. But then I come back to them, and I ask you this, even though it may be critical of those who were activists, including the Phyllis Schlafly's of the world who was a conservative in that period, and they were Young Americans for Freedom, do not you feel that somehow in some way, all of the boomers were subconsciously affected by the times they lived in, even though they were not active in any of the movements? And as time's gone on, they are affected by it.
PC (00:40:12):
I am not quite sure that I can clearly... I am not quite sure that I understand. You are saying that all boomers, that their mindsets were affected by what was going on?
SM (00:40:25):
I am trying to say that subconsciously the 85 percent who were not involved in any kind of activism still were affected somewhat by the times they lived in.
PC (00:40:35):
Well, we are all affected by [inaudible]. I think that is fair.
SM (00:40:39):
And that is somewhat lessened when people say only 15 percent were involved.
PC (00:40:44):
Because you have even got, well Silent. David told me the figures one time for divorce during the 19 early (19)70s when divorce really got cranked up. It was the Silent who were getting divorces. I think it affects everybody all the way across the board, not just the boomers, but anybody who lives during a period of time is going to be affected by what's going on.
SM (00:41:09):
How do you feel that many boomers felt they were the most unique generation in American history because they were going to change the world like it'd never been seen before? That they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, war, and they were going to make a better world.
PC (00:41:26):
Well, you know what, that was part of the thing that I was telling you that used to drive me a little nuts, is that people did tend to get self-righteous. But did we believe that we were different, that we were essentially the salvation of the United States? I do not know. I think we thought that we could really make a change. And we did. When the Vietnam War was over, we really had a feeling that we had a significant role in making that happen. So that gives you a feeling of power to say, God, if I can do that I could do anything. And so you start building on that. And then you have the social programs that started up and had started. And the Peace Corps. People were actually going out and doing things and seeing some differences. And the more... excuse me, the more they built on that, the more they did feel in power. Now, what continues to flummox me is what happened to the ones that got a degree in corporate? Did they just burn out and went too far in the other direction? That is possible.
SM (00:42:47):
Let me change the tape here. Change to the other side. The next question I have is one of the two basic questions that I have been trying to get responses from all of my interviewees. And I am going to read this one because this is something our students put together when we went to Washington DC about 15 years ago, and we met with former Senator Edmond Muskie. And because he wanted to talk about 1968 because he was the vice presidential running mate with Humphrey. And this is the question. Do you feel that the boomers as a generation are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth? Divisions between Black and white, divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticized it, divisions between those who supported the troops and those who did not? What role has the Vietnam War played in healing the divisions or was this primarily a healing for veterans? And finally, do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, "Time heals all wounds," a truth? And I think when I was trying to clarify this more, I think it's more between those who were against the war and protested against the war, who were boomers, and those who were veterans because the divisions are still there.
PC (00:44:20):
Between the veterans and the [inaudible]?
SM (00:44:22):
Well, veterans still had very strong feelings toward those people, most of them, toward those people who protested the war. And I do not know... And I think most of the people that protested the war, a lot of them never had problems with the veterans, they had problems with the authorities who sent them there. But there were a few that did have problems with anybody fighting. So, your thoughts about the generation as a whole, do you think this generation has a problem with healing?
PC (00:44:55):
That is a really good question. The divisions back then between say activists and-
SM (00:45:06):
I am going to turn my tape right now. Make sure... okay, go right ahead.
PC (00:45:20):
I think that as far as healing goes... see, this is very hard for me to speak for anybody other than myself. Although I was an anti-war protestor, again, as you said, it was not against the guys that went, although sometimes it was based on the person and how he presented himself. Because a lot of those guys did not want to go. They were not there because they wanted to be there, they were there because they were drafted. I do not have a problem with the guys who fought in Vietnam. I had a problem with self-righteousness on either side. Either the activists, again, that same old thing that I keep coming back to, or the soldiers who basically were ready to say, oh, well, we were just doing our duty and you are a bunch of pansies cause would not do it. But as far as now, it is to me personally, it is a dead issue. I do not feel that division happening now in myself. I am trying to think of the other boomers that I know, and I cannot think of people that carry it on. And I know... Some of my friends are people who fought in the war, fought in Vietnam, and they're not carrying it. Some of them actually even became anti-war activists later on for different wars. I guess my final answer would be, no, I am not feeling that that division is any really significant one unless you had a personal confrontation with somebody who was really aggressively from the other point of view. And then you might have it against that person. But I really do not see that as being an issue now. I might be blind, but I have not seen it.
SM (00:47:27):
I know when Senator Muskie was... we waited for him to respond and he did not. Then he finally said, "We have not healed since the Civil War.:" And then he went on to talk about, he had just seen the Ken Burns series because he had been in the hospital and he said, 400,000 men had lost their lives. We almost lost a whole generation. Particularly in the south. The number of men, it is unbelievable. It is amazing that they could even have families because so many had died from the south. But that is what he was responding to. And because he knows that anybody who knows what happens in Gettysburg, when the north and south came together, that the healing really was not there. And so many people did go to their graves, was still the bitterness of that period.
PC (00:48:16):
Well, the south is still fighting the war. We have all met people from the south or been in situations where they make it clear that they're still fighting that war.
SM (00:48:30):
I think I was originally getting... because I had been at the wall many times, this is like an anti-war protestor taking their family to the wall for the first time and having their little son or daughter look up to their father and say, "Dad, what did you do in the war?" I think that was kind of where this all came from I think in terms of the healing. The generation gap of something was very obvious between the World War II generation and the boomers. Of course, the Silent was that small group in between. But did you have an issue with generation gap between your parents and you?
PC (00:49:06):
There were things we did not agree on. My father was an interesting character because he was not a GI, he was before GI's. He was what was called the Lost. And although it turned out that he was a conservative, we just basically did not talk politics, which is really interesting. I had not even realized it until we were... David and I were talking about it recently. We did not do it. Basically, the rule in the house was, if you have got something to say and you can back it up with facts, then I will respect your opinion but if you are just mouthing out [inaudible], I will not.
SM (00:49:50):
That is very good.
PC (00:49:50):
And that is the way we ran it. We did not have political arguments for their sake, but it was, what do you believe here? Because I was a Goldwater girl when I was in high school, before I could vote. Talk about ultraconservative. I worked at the Goldwater headquarters. I read, None Dare Call It Treason, I knew the whole John Birch line. And went to a fraternity party one night, and we were talking about Vietnam and our involvement in Vietnam. And I was saying, "Well, no, we have to do it because of the domino theory, blah, blah, blah." And some of the guys who were against the war started asking me questions. And I went home that night and I could not sleep. I kept thinking, something is not working here, let us go back to first causes. Why are we fighting a war? What is the worst thing that could happen if we left Vietnam? By the end of that night, I said, I cannot be a Goldwater girl anymore. I cannot basically support the war anymore because, again, it was this life-changing thing. To go back to first causes, first question, what is behind this? What would happen if? And once you started doing that, wherever it goes, that is where you end up. And I ended up radical left, and I basically have not been out of that camp since. But I also do not align with any parties. I have even voted for Republicans when I thought they were honest human beings who were trying their best to do what they could.
SM (00:51:41):
I think Hillary Clinton was a Goldwater girl too at the very beginning.
PC (00:51:47):
Is that right? I did not know that.
SM (00:51:47):
Yes. She was a Goldwater girl. There is a whole story in her biography by... I forget her name... God, one of the first ones when Bill Clinton became president. And she said she had a great teacher because she was a Goldwater girl, and the other person was a LBG person so they were forced to take the other person's point of view in a class assignment. She ended up doing a debate in support of Johnson and the person who liked Johnson had to support Goldwater. And that was a great way of teaching. And that is when she started making her change toward being to the left as opposed to being to the right.
PC (00:52:28):
When you start questioning, I do not care whether you are on the left and you start questioning and you slide to the right or the other way around, if you can have a good reason for what you're doing, then it is legitimate, then there is no fight.
SM (00:52:44):
Well, I think that her name was [inaudible]. I think it is a great little book she wrote on Hillary Clinton when she was the first lady. In your eyes, what were the watershed moments? When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes and when did it end?
PC (00:53:01):
Clearly, when Kennedy was shot, I think that was such a devastating situation for me and probably for everybody. That I knew suddenly, oh God, everything you believed in could be wiped out in an instance. And I was not a Kennedy fan, particularly, remember those were my Goldwater era days. But to have the president shot, that this could... I am sorry, it still makes me cry. That this could happen in your country was horrible. And so that is when that part of it started. When he got shot, it was total devastation of everything you believed in. And then the other half of it, the cultural revolution started when the Beatles arrived. My mother said that that was when I was ruined, when the Beatles came to the United States. She said, "You were ruined then, you were ruined." Everything fell apart. And so, I think that is clearly when they started. When they ended was when everybody seemed to get so self-absorbed, say the mid-(19)70s ish. It is like all of a sudden everybody was doing all these... and that is part of the victimization groups and all that stuff. Everybody was so involved in themselves, how they were [inaudible] better for themselves. But I feel that the idealism that marked our generation really started to get wiped out.
SM (00:54:51):
I know this is another question that some people did not want to answer, because they said, that is ridiculous to ask it because we're dealing with 74 to 78 million. But I said, if I had a room full of 500 people from all over the country, from all ethnic groups, from male, female, gay, lesbian, you name it, and I were to ask them, what do you feel was the most important event that affected your life, one specific happening, what would that be?
PC (00:55:22):
As a personal event?
SM (00:55:26):
Yeah, as an event that happened in your life when you were a boomer? And I was referring mainly to probably up to the age of 40 or whatever, what would it be?
PC (00:55:39):
That is a hard one if you are going to include the personal stuff. As far as national stuff-
SM (00:55:45):
National, international, is there any one specific happening that shaped you more than any other?
PC (00:55:53):
The Kennedy assassination on a political level. On a personal level, it had to do with a relationship with a guy. And that is all I really want to say.
SM (00:56:10):
And again, this is very difficult because we are talking about a lot of people. Do you think boomers have been good parents and good grandparents? I cannot believe we're saying that because a lot of boomers do not like to admit they are getting old. But boomers do not complain either, because I think they look like they are going to live longer.
PC (00:56:34):
What, because they do not complain about getting old?
SM (00:56:38):
I do not see a whole lot... they are just getting 62 now so I just do not see it-
PC (00:56:43):
I will tell you something about the boomers, the boomers have said tradition... all across the board, the boomers have said to themselves, okay, this is what happens at this age level, this is what I do not like, so what do I do to fix this? Therefore, you get things like... it's true, they did not invent it, but they certainly popularized it. Then you got birth control. As we were coming into a childbearing years, what is the thing that has to be fixed about getting pregnant when you do not want to? Well, give us something that will make it so we do not have babies. Then as older guys... and I am sorry because you are a boomer too, but as boomers started aging and getting that problem, what happens, Viagra.
SM (00:57:29):
Is not that amazing?
PC (00:57:31):
Whatever problems we have got or whatever problems hit the... when the boomers hit an age that has a problem, they fix it. And I think that is another good thing I like because they are not willing to say, okay, I am going to be 65 and I am going to be in a rocking chair. I do not know anybody my age who is sitting around in a rocking chair. I do not know anybody that age. What they have got now, if they're sitting in a rocking chair it is because they broke their knees skiing.
SM (00:58:01):
Well, they cannot walk. And of course, a lot of them retire because they want to go on do something else.
PC (00:58:08):
Exactly, nobody has... I started in the banking field when I was 20 and I am 70 and I am ready to retire and I am still in the banking field. There are some people that do that, but I think it is a much, much smaller percentage than our parents' generation. And it goes back to that thing that you were talking about, about reinventing ourselves.
SM (00:58:30):
But can you share... some people have told me their story, the exact moment that you heard that John Kennedy was shot and killed? Do you remember where you were? Tell me where you were and how you first heard about it?
PC (00:58:47):
I was in high school. Let us see, that was (19)63, and I graduated already, so it was my senior year. We were having career day. The Friday afternoon?
SM (00:59:02):
Yeah.
PC (00:59:03):
We were having career day at my high school, and it was between sessions. I was in the hallway and I heard a voice on the... sorry... a voice on the loudspeaker. And I thought to myself, God, that sounds like a black edged voice. You know black [inaudible]. It sounds like a black edged voice. And I got to the room, the next room where I was supposed to be, and somebody said, "The president has been shot." And after a little while, they said the president was dead and that we were all going to be released. And so my high school was on the other side of town from where I lived so we had to take a bus and it was tears all the way. People in the street were crying, the bus were crying, everybody was crying. And all we could do is sit there in front of the TV and cry all weekend.
SM (01:00:16):
That is what most people were doing. I was a sophomore. And the thing is, everybody was crying. And then we went home and then we saw the whole weekend. Oswald killed on Sunday on live TV, and then the funeral on Monday. And I remember not even sleeping, I stayed up because they were covering it nonstop on black and white TV. I cannot even think in terms of, was I thinking anything deeper than the loss of a president, what this all meant. I have been reading lately about other people that could have... they thought it might have been a conspiracy. Oh, there was so many things happening and of course-
PC (01:00:58):
Oh, I thought it was right after it. When I was on the bus... I knew it happened in Dallas, but I kept saying that those damn southerners, those damn southerners to kill our president, they're not part of the country.
SM (01:01:15):
Have you been to Dallas?
PC (01:01:17):
Never.
SM (01:01:19):
I would like to go once, but they say it is exactly the way it was. They made sure that they changed nothing.
PC (01:01:27):
Oh, right there?
SM (01:01:27):
Right there at the book depository and the road and everything is just the way it was then. Hopefully one day I will go there. One of the other issues is the issue of trust. It does not seem like the boomers... well, I did not finish the question. In terms of have they been good parents or grandparents in terms of... and by that, this is based on the experiences of people that you know, that they really shared the experiences of what it was like when they were young and the times they went through? Because today's young people do not seem to know a whole lot of history. That is partially because of the schooling system, but what are the parents doing in terms of educating their kids? And today, 85 percent of the college students are now sons and daughters of generation X'ers and they're not the daughters of boomers. But still 15 percent are Boomer children. And they're the ones that had children later. And I often wonder, what have they done to raise kids to be sensitive to the issues that they're facing in the world today? Just your thoughts on-
PC (01:02:39):
I wish I could tell you. I never had any kids myself. That was a conscious choice because I knew I would be a crappy parent. And that is why I was thrilled about birth control because I did not have to make that decision. But boomer parents always seemed fine to me, but I was not even thinking about it because that was not... they were friends of mine and they got very involved in their kids' lives but as far as what they were telling them about how they grew up, I suspect that they did it a little bit too much. Because I was somewhere recently, at a movie recently, and this dad was telling his kids, "Oh yeah, I went to Woodstock and I was part of Woodstock and blah, blah, blah." And I could see the kid's eyes glaze over as, oh God, not another boomer thing. And I suspect that that probably is not that uncommon. But as far as actually knowing how other boomers raised their kids specifically, I really do not feel qualified to answer.
SM (01:03:48):
At the university I worked at, before I left back in the mid (19)90s, we had a program where we brought boomers together with Generation X students.
PC (01:03:57):
Oh, that must have been interesting.
SM (01:03:58):
And we had two of them. We brought a TV personality in, and there was friction.
PC (01:04:02):
Was there really?
SM (01:04:02):
Yeah, there was friction. The faculty members that were on stage were boomers. And of course, they were very frustrated with today's college generation X'ers because first off, they were not activist enough and they did not work hard enough and all the other things. But the results of these sessions, two sessions were very obvious that the generation X'ers really did not care very much about boomers. And I do not think they do today either. And I think they would like them to get lost, basically. Because I do not find millennials, today's college students that way because I think they are fairly close to their parents. And I think they are close in many ways to boomers, but not generation X'ers. And I have even had issues with them personally. They had two responses to the boomers. And that is, "I am sick of hearing about how great it was when you were young. And all the nostalgia, I do not give a damn, I do not care. I am sick of hearing about it. And that is all you live on is the way it was. And I want to live now and I do not want to live back then." And the second group would say, well, "Geez, I wish I lived then because I wish we had the causes that you had." And there was nothing in between.
PC (01:05:23):
Nothing in between?
SM (01:05:24):
Nothing in between. It is either I dislike you or I wish I was there when you were there.
PC (01:05:30):
Remember when we were growing up and the GI', were all talking about the war and what it was like in the war and how you should be grateful to them because they fought the war and the war was everything. You got to the point, I do not know about you, I got to the point where enough. So, you fought the war and thank you very much, but it's over now so you can go do whatever it is that you are doing. I felt about the GI's, the way you're saying the Generation X feels about the boomers. And I do think boomers tend to overdo it sometimes. Come on guys. There were bad things about us too. We were not the salvation of the world. We did make some mistakes. But I think that is just generation to generation. I have been reading women's history in terms of how the suffragettes... I teach courses in film. That is another one of those things that I do. And one course that I was teaching was the jazz age, jazz age film. And suffragettes felt about flappers the way the women's liberation people of the 1970s feel about young women, particularly young women, Gen X. It was like, oh, look, we were fighting and dying for the right... this is the suffragettes. Fighting and dying and starving ourselves and doing all these things so that you can have the right to vote. And now it is 1920 and you have got the right to vote and a lot of you are not even bothering. And what the flappers were saying to them was, thanks a lot, we will use it if we need it, thanks very much, but that is all we owe you. And you will find a lot of the gen X'ers and I am not sure about millennials, who will say the same thing. Yeah, you worked really hard to get us these rights, but you have done it, so let it go. It is just the way of the world, I think.
SM (01:07:39):
Well, good point. Very good point. Because the Generation X'ers, they are the ones that were born between (19)65 and (19)80.
PC (01:07:52):
I was not sure what their date was.
SM (01:07:53):
(19)65 to (19)80 and then (19)81 begins the millennials, which really have a lot in common with the boomer generation. Not as well-educated though I- Not as well-educated though, I think. One of the issues too is the issue of trust. Do you feel that the Boomers having a problem as a generation with lack of trust? I mention this because I consider personally that not trusting your government is healthy because it shows descent and freedom of speech, and political science professors will actually teach that in the classroom, that it is healthy. But the Boomers even go way too far. They did not trust anybody when they were young in position of responsibility, whether it be university president or the President of the United States or governor, senator, religious leader, or a leader in a corporation. They did not trust any leaders, and that is because they felt they were lied to so many ways and you could not trust them. So, do you think they have passed this on to their kids and we are just not a trusting...
PC (01:08:59):
I think we should [inaudible]. I think what you say is true. I think Boomers did have a huge, huge trust situation. But I think that really that is a result of having grown up in a situation where it... Like in the 1950s and all leaders were exemplary, all leaders of business were exemplary. You just assumed that these guys were made of good stuff, that they rose to the top of the ranks because they were worthy of it. Then all of a sudden, so that is where you grow up. You start out with being a very trusting person. Oh, if you are an authority, I cannot speak for [inaudible], because I was not a [inaudible] person, but those people in position of authority are trustworthy, honorable people. Then when you get to the time of your life when you are starting to question anyway, big time, whammo, all these cracks appear and so you're not only going through the standard adolescent questioning, but you also have much heightened expectation, much more heightened expectation than you would, excuse me. I just ran up and down the stairs.
SM (01:10:27):
Oh, how did you do that?
PC (01:10:30):
Oh, I have got a cell, or not a cell phone. I have got a...
SM (01:10:32):
Oh, okay.
PC (01:10:33):
...mobile phone.
SM (01:10:34):
Okay.
PC (01:10:35):
But basically, so you have got people who are brought up to really believe in the system, to really believe in the people who run the system, and then it is hard to take small cracks. But by the time Kennedy is killed, you are starting to see some huge fissures there, and then how are you ever going to trust after that? If you grew up in a fairly cynical background and cracks appear, then you say, "Well, that is life." But when you grow up in this sanctified atmosphere, the 1950s and the cracks appear, you cannot handle it. That is my theory.
SM (01:11:15):
Yeah. I go back to the 1950s again. I want your thoughts on the beat generation, which was that part of that silent generation that wrote those books, whether Ginsburg, Kerouac, and looked at the beats, how influential were the beats on the Boomers when they were young, and then this one as well. This was the first TV generation, and they saw the news on TV, sitcoms in black and white in the (19)50s. How important was TV in shaping the lives of Boomers, particularly when they were in elementary school? Because yeah, they might not have been able to think politically yet, but they saw shows like Howdy Doody, Hopalong Cassidy, TV westerns in which the Native American was always the bad guy, and the variety shows, the game shows, life coverage of historic events. The McCarthy hearings, if you are young enough to remember them, this man shouting that everybody is a communist, the Mickey Mouse Club, Captain Kangaroo. The media seemed to play an important part consciously and subconsciously in shaping this generation. Just your thoughts on TV and radio and the influence it had on the Boomers.
PC (01:12:30):
Okay. I will start with your first question first. That is about the beat generation. As I mentioned, I was reading a little bit of Kerouac, but I just want to give you an anecdote from my own personal experience. I started college in 1964, and we were on the old campus then, and it had buildings spread out all over town. On my very first day of college, I went down to get something in the cafeteria and saw a small room off the side of the cafeteria, and I was looking for someplace to eat my sandwich. I walked in there and it is where the beatniks hung out. My hair stood on end. All of a sudden, it was like, "Oh my God, there are such people. These people, there's..." So, I started hanging out there, although I could not... I was still living at home and stuff, so I was considerably restrained, but I got to hang out with beatniks, listen to them talk, listen to their music, listen to their basic assumption. One guy was a guy called Lester Greenberg, and he was actually one of Arand's [inaudible] part-time. She had a lot, but I was so excited, and I have always been fascinated by the beat in general as far as how much influence they had on the Boomer generation, I would say as themselves, not a huge amount, but as far as the CARNA culture, when it started happening, people were reading beatnik literature. So I would say not a huge amount. Me personally, huge.
SM (01:14:22):
It is amazing. Ginsburg seemed to be everywhere.
PC (01:14:27):
[inaudible] was. I took a class with Ginsburg. It was a poetry class.
SM (01:14:30):
You did?
PC (01:14:31):
Yeah.
SM (01:14:32):
What was that like?
PC (01:14:35):
He was so pompous and he was so full of himself that I was really irritated with him. Basically, this was out in Tucson years later, but it was all about, "I am the great God, Allen Ginsburg, and so you are going to listen to every word I have to say, and now you are going to do a few exercises and read your pathetic little poems." So, I was not too impressed. I was impressed by the fact that I had taken a class of Ginsburg. I was not impressed by Ginsburg himself. So, I would say there was not a lot there. But that is, again, these are all just my points of view. But as far as the TV thing, I think that that was huge. I think it was huge because it gave us one identity you had in a way that they certainly do not have anymore. You had your three channels at most, and not even very much PBS then, as I recall. So, everybody saw the same programs, everybody was on the same page, and you kind of felt, if... We got one of the first TVs on our block, we were very popular people during that time. Then when as other people got their TVs, not so much. But I think it was huge, just in terms of the fact that it gave us a single point of reference. I think maybe, and I had not thought about this before until you just asked it now, I think basically that is what coalesced the Boomers, because you all did come from the same spot. With Ed Sullivan, once he brought Elvis Presley in, and then the Beatles, you started going that way culturally too. "Oh, this is what is happening. Is not this exciting?" Again, the media is saying, "This is exciting. This is what is happening."
SM (01:16:39):
Well, TV westerns dominated television in the (19)50s, and of course, cowboys and Indians and guns and shooting, and did not think anything about the links between war. You just had a good time with your Hopalong Cassidy outfit and everything.
PC (01:16:55):
Exactly.
SM (01:16:56):
But I, as a kid, but as later on, I got to think Howdy Doody, I never saw a Black face in the audience for Howdy Doody or Rudy Kazootie or any of those shows.
PC (01:17:06):
I do not think they did have any.
SM (01:17:07):
Mickey Mouse Club was all white people.
PC (01:17:11):
Remember American Bandstand? They started bringing some Blacks in.
SM (01:17:13):
Yes. Dick Clark. Yep. But I did not, and of course, Amos and Andy was a very big show in the very beginning of the (19)50s, and that was a with African Americans. But there was nothing from that show until about the (19)60s except for Nat King Cole. It was amazing. Of course, the way they portrayed African Americans the way they talked, and it was kind of negative. I think about these later on.
PC (01:17:40):
Oh, okay.
SM (01:17:42):
Okay. I got a couple of things here. What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you?
PC (01:17:46):
It means a lot to me because, for one thing, I was fascinated by Maya Lynn in her story and the fact that she was the one that designed it. A young architecture student, Asian descent. I thought that whole story was fascinating, right from the giddy-up. But I did a documentary a few years ago on the History of War Memorial.
SM (01:18:11):
Yeah, I noticed that.
PC (01:18:11):
So naturally, I was very interested in the Vietnam Memorial, and I had not been there ever until I started working on that documentary. I went down there and I thought, "Well, it is a splash in the ground. It is very conceptual. It is very strong as being a concept, but I am not sure how it will play out 100 years from now when all the people are dead who were in that war or directly affected by that war." So we went there, and by the time I reached the middle, I completely collapsed in tears. There is something so powerful about that memorial, and I wish I could tell you what it was. I do not know what it is. I guess just being overwhelmed by all the names.
SM (01:18:58):
It has gotten so many responses. Most people think it is... Well, it had a lot of criticism at the beginning, as you well know, when the wall was, designs were coming in, and that was finally picked, that brought up all the divisions again in America that had been in the (19)60s, because a lot of people thought it did not do justice for one reason or the other. But that is kind of waned somewhat. But there are still some veterans that do not like it, and they do not, but most do, but...
PC (01:19:24):
Well, that is an age-old thing too. Do you want something representational or do you want something abstract. They have their Korean memorial right across the way, which is extremely represents.
SM (01:19:38):
Of course, the new World War II Museum, which took too long to build. [inaudible] wrote a book called To Heal a Nation. He felt that this wall was supposed to be non-political, and basically heal the veterans and the families and those who served. It may have done a halfway decent job with that group, but he also thought it was going to heal the nation and play an important role. Do you think that walls played an important role in healing the nation from this war?
PC (01:20:07):
No, I do not think so. I wish I could be more specific. Basically, the wars, one of the things I learned in studying war memorials and how and why they are built and why they look the way they do, is that war memorials are built for the people or for the generation who suffered from the war. They speak to that generation. You in 200 years from now, it is going to be an interesting piece of artwork. That is, it. As far as healing the nation, a wall cannot heal a nation, even a statue cannot heal a nation. I do not think that any piece of material, anything could heal a nation. Possibly a film could, although I cannot think of a good enough film that would have done that.
SM (01:21:01):
So, what is interesting about the World War II Memorial is World War II vets who fought in Europe are upset with it because it reminds them of Hitler. Hitler had these columns and things like this memorial, and he felt some of them were pretty upset with it. So, it is interesting.
PC (01:21:18):
So, all triumphant, again, you are talking to somebody who's like, this is the bee in my bonnet. Basically, all triumphant civilizations go back to a classical style. That classical style in this case is the Roman. This is a very Roman kind of memorial. Hitler did it because of the glorification of the Third Reich. But also, if you go back to any... World War II was a triumphant war. I mean, we clearly won, there were clear objectives that were clearly obtained. So, they are going to celebrate that with a triumphant style. We do World War I, that is not at all what those four memorials look like, because it was a very disillusioning war. So, I think for them to say, it is like Hitler. Well, Hitler was like the Romans, and that same sense of Roman triumph is behind this particular memorial.
SM (01:22:27):
What do you think of Kent State and Jackson State?
PC (01:22:32):
Kent State was devastating. I remember coming home, I do not remember where I was at the time, but I came home and I was looking at the news on the TV not paying any attention. I see these guys shooting these students, and for some reason it did not register. I said, "What are they playing that old Nazi war footage from?" Suddenly, I realized, this is today. These kids are being shot by American soldiers or by National Guard, and this is happening in our streets. How can this happen? I was shocked, afraid, devastated in talking about losing any shred of trust you might have in the government. That was the final nail in the coffin.
SM (01:23:20):
What does Watergate mean to you?
PC (01:23:24):
Watergate Gate was just, I just saw it as same old, same old in terms of, yes, these people are corrupt. Yes, these terrible things did happen. But yeah, it has been going on for years and it is going to go on for years more.
SM (01:23:39):
What did Woodstock in the summer of love mean to you?
PC (01:23:46):
Woodstock I thought was exciting. As a matter of fact, I had tickets to go and then changed my mind because of the weather. But I liked that whole thing. It was all a big experiment. It was all something. It was all about music and just relaxing and enjoying yourself. So that is what that meant to me. You said Jackson State? You mean Ole Miss and...
SM (01:24:12):
Yeah. Jackson State also. Two students were killed three weeks later at Jackson State right after Kent State. So, it was...
PC (01:24:19):
Oh, I did not, you know what? I tell you the honest truth, I guess I did not pay any attention to that.
SM (01:24:24):
They try to make sure Ken State that they include both at the remembrance ceremony. So yeah, Woodstock. Yeah. Do you still have your tickets for Woodstock?
PC (01:24:35):
No. I bet they would be worth a fortune now.
SM (01:24:38):
They would be worth a lot. Of course, the next one here is, what does 1968 mean to you? I think we have gone over...
PC (01:24:44):
Yeah, I think we did go over...
SM (01:24:46):
What does the counterculture mean to you?
PC (01:24:48):
The counterculture now or then?
SM (01:24:50):
Then. Because Theodore Rozak wrote that great book, the Making of a Counterculture. It was a big popular book.
PC (01:24:58):
Theodore Roosevelt?
SM (01:24:59):
Rozak, Theodore Rozak.
PC (01:25:01):
Oh, okay. I was going, "I do not know about a counterculture in 1900." Well, the counterculture was the whole network. Everything from SDS to hippies and hate Ashbury. That is what it means to me. Basically, anybody who was questioning and living a different... Questioning the way things were and living a different way than they were taught was the norm when we were growing up in the (19)50s. So that sort of was...
SM (01:25:33):
Yeah. My next one was just the hippies and the yippies.
PC (01:25:38):
Yeah, they were fun. They were just absurd. I mean, the hippies were honestly just trying to be left alone and express themselves in whatever way they chose to express themselves. The yippies were just absurd. They were [inaudible] all over again. I remember I went to a talk with Abby Hoffman before he went underground just talking about the yippies. It was all about fun. It was all about the absurd way of driving your point home. It was just another way to do get to do the work.
SM (01:26:16):
So you saw Abby. I saw Jerry at Ohio State and...
PC (01:26:19):
Okay, I saw him too later on.
SM (01:26:21):
Yeah, he had the bandana and the thing on his face there, the lines. But they were two unique and different people in the end.
PC (01:26:32):
Oh, extremely.
SM (01:26:33):
Abby was the real deal. I think Jerry was just an imposter in many respects. Even Abby says this later on, even though they were friends to the end. But can you talk about that experience to seeing Abby Hoffman? Because I have not talked to too many that saw him. I never saw him. What kind of, supposedly he had a charisma that was just unbelievable and he made people laugh.
PC (01:26:58):
He did.
SM (01:26:59):
But he was also very serious.
PC (01:27:01):
Well, but see, that was when I was just telling you that I saw Abby Hoffman. It was all about fun. That is where that came from. He was just so, at the time that I saw him, he was actually talking at [inaudible] at the State University of New York at Albany later. But it was before he went underground. He was just talking about, I cannot remember a single word that he said, except that you just had this feeling of joyous, absurd. Let us just have a good time with this. Do not take anything too seriously. Just do this for the hell of it, kind of. That was the impression that I got from him. Just as you said, he was funny. It was laughing. It may have been serious, but you were laughing and taking it all in that.
SM (01:27:59):
I heard stories from other people that said he made, even the policeman who arrested him, laugh. When he was in jail, he made them laugh. He was just a, well, he was different.
PC (01:28:13):
Well, he knew that basically life is a joke. I mean, nothing is going to last forever.
SM (01:28:20):
Your thoughts on Students for Democratic Society and the Weatherman?
PC (01:28:25):
I thought they were very romantic figures. Now, I think they are appalling. But at that time, even though I did not want to be them, because I could not quite go that extra sort of violent mile, I still thought they were very romantic figures fighting against the establishment and actually using the weapons of the established. Then I just thought, "Great, these guys are romance."
SM (01:28:57):
Well, but in the Port Huron statement, no one knew that they would end up becoming the Weatherman. So that is what really split SDS is when they became the Weatherman and Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Your thoughts on them?
PC (01:29:15):
I was thrilled to see that they were speaking out for something that they thought was wrong, and they just did not say, "Okay, so we fought. So, everybody has got a fight." That they said, "There is something essentially wrong here, and we are going to speak out whether we were part of the war or not, right is right," and so I have huge admiration for them for that.
SM (01:29:42):
They kind of took over the anti-war movement when SDS died right to the very end. The other one is the Young Americas for Freedom, which is a conservative group, but they were also against the war, and they are still very popular. Just came back from a conference down in Washington. The new students are still there. You do not see them a lot on college campuses. Did you ever see them at all, or?
PC (01:30:04):
No, I never did.
SM (01:30:05):
That was Bill Buckley's group. Then of course, the Enemies List. We all know about the Nixon's enemies list.
PC (01:30:12):
Yeah, I think we are all convinced we were on Nixon's enemies list.
SM (01:30:17):
What are your thoughts also on the Black Panther? [inaudible]. But this is great. A couple things, the Black Panthers, of course, had so many unique personalities from Bobby Seale to Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, H Rat Brown, Dave Hilliard, Elaine Brown, Stokely Carmichael. The list goes on and on here. They, of course, were the symbol of Black Power. They challenged Dr. King and the other civil rights leaders. Then of course, you had Malcolm X, who died in 1965. But even he challenged the civil rights leaders like Byard Rustin. There is two historic scenes that I know your husband was well aware of when I talked to him. Anybody who knows the (19)60s remembers when Stokely Carmichael was next to Martin Luther King in that historic picture. He was telling King, "Your time has passed." Then the other one is the debate that Malcolm X had Byard Rustin, where he told Byard, "You, like Dr. King, your time has passed on. Nonviolence is not the way anymore. It is by any means necessary." Those kinds of things. Your thoughts on Black Power and the Black Panther Party. It has challenged to the established civil rights group, which really challenged America in the (19)50s and early (19)60s.
PC (01:31:52):
As far as my personal experience with the Black Power guys, I was always a little scared of them because I grew up in a white suburb, and we did not know any Black people. Even my high school did not have any Black students or anything. So then I went to college and there were a lot of Black kids, mostly from New York City. I got to know a few of them, but in general, I was scared of them, just not the [inaudible] point on it. So as far as Black Power, when I thought, "Yeah, I understand why they are doing that, but I am still frightened of them." Interesting because I was not frightened of the SDS. As far as time has gone on, I think the great tragedy of the Civil Rights movement is when they moved from [inaudible] and the demonstrations of the (19)50s and (19)60s to the [inaudible], the violence of the Black Panthers and stuff. That was too bad because the original guys who were working non-violently to get where they were going, had the ideals had, it was not slogans to them. They were literally willing to put their lives on the line. I never got that feeling from the Black Power guys. They were willing to put my life on the line.
SM (01:33:29):
I know that David Horowitz, who used to be the editor of Ramparts, you know David? He went from being extreme left to being a conservative speaker, and he attacks the new left, the old left, the Black Panthers in particular, because someone he worked closely with was killed. He blamed one of the Black Panthers of doing it. He changed immediately and he attacks them constantly. But there were a lot of good things that the Black Panther Party did, the food programs. So there was a lot of really good things. So we tend to concentrate more on the radical aspects than some of the good things they did. But there is truth to it. One of the historic points is at Kent State University, you will not see an African American student at that protest. They were instructed by their...
PC (01:34:18):
Kent State?
SM (01:34:19):
Yeah, at Kent State, back in 1970, when the killings took place, there were no Black students, because Black students were not supposed to be at anti-war protests around 1970. They were together. In the late (19)60s, white and Black students were working together against the war. But then there was a split and Black students concentrated on what was going on in America. White students continued to fight for what was going on in Vietnam. So there was a big split there. You saw that even in the early (19)70s at Ohio State with the Afros and kind of more of a separation kind of aspect. So, everybody has different feelings about that period.
PC (01:35:01):
Yeah.
SM (01:35:02):
How important were the college students in ending the Vietnam War? We're talking about, and why did the Vietnam War end in your opinion?
PC (01:35:11):
I think college students were very important in bringing the whole issue to the forefront. They were not just going to let it sit back there and simmer. So I think that the way it was done with teachings, with closing down the schools, with the demonstrations, constant demonstrations and constant organizations, I think they were very, very important. Why did Vietnam stop? I think that there was a lot of truth to the fact that it stopped because there was not popular support at home. I think that the government, the people who were serving in government saw that this was not going to get them reelected. I was in a demonstration in DC I think it might have been the last one, and we were marching toward the White House, like a zillion people were marching toward the White House, and suddenly from the opposite direction came all these kind of thoroughly steamfitter, pipe fitter Union 109 kind of guys. I thought, "Oh, this is it. This is where we get our heads bashed." In fact, they carried these signs saying, "[inaudible] 109 Against the War in Vietnam." I went, "That is the end, guys." When those guys are joining forces with the students, there is no way they can keep this war going that much longer. So, I think that the reason it stopped is because finally enough people said, "There is no point here."
SM (01:36:51):
I know there was that historic scene in New York City where the hard hats wanted to beat the crap out of the anti-war people. Remember that? That was in the late...
PC (01:36:59):
[inaudible] I thought were-were...
SM (01:37:00):
Yeah.
PC (01:37:01):
That is when I saw those guys. So by that time, they had all come around like, "Why is my kid dying in Vietnam? What's the point here?"
SM (01:37:10):
You were in college from (19)64 to (19)68?
PC (01:37:13):
Yeah. Then I sort of dropped out ish, sort of, the end of (19)67, I dropped out.
SM (01:37:23):
Where did you get your degree?
PC (01:37:24):
I got my degree at... Well, I went to the University of Arizona when I moved there and took some credits there, plus combined them with the credits from the State University of New York and then a community college. I had picked up a few credits there that were applicable. By that time, the State University of New York had a program called the Regents College in which allowed you to take all your credits, acceptable credits from whatever colleges or universities you have gone to. Because of the way, I guess because of the mobility of so many people, you could get your degree finally from there. So that is what I did. My degree is from the Regent College from the university. I think it's called the University of New York State College.
SM (01:38:11):
Yeah. I went to SUNY Binghamton. You probably know that.
PC (01:38:13):
You did?
SM (01:38:14):
Yeah. So that is my school, undergrad that is. I went to Ohio State to grad school. The question I want to ask you, and this is very important to me. I am one of those guys that never missed a lecture, debate, forum, or whatever. I went to everything at SUNY Binghamton in Ohio State, everything. But do you remember, you already talked about that you saw Abby Hoffman, that Allen Ginsburg was one of your teachers. Was there a professor in any of your classes that truly inspired you and why? Secondly, who were some of the other speakers or programs that you went to when you were in college that really had an impact on you or that you remember?
PC (01:38:57):
Oh God. Well, as far as speakers, there was, remember I was always an artsy fartsy kind of a gal. But they had a week with three, it is funny, they had a week with John Cage, Merc Cunningham, and Robert Creeley, the three heavy hitters of basically, they were all beatniks too of the art scene in New York. I spent the whole week going to workshops and discussions with them. So that was huge.
SM (01:39:31):
Wow.
PC (01:39:34):
I am sorry, what was the first part of the question?
SM (01:39:37):
It was about the people that if, was there a professor that really inspired you in your undergraduate years? Just the way you taught the messages that were delivered that inspired your sense of learning?
PC (01:39:51):
That really, really inspired me. There was a history teacher whose name I do not remember, but you can see I [inaudible] they inspired me. But he did ask the question. I mean, he did open my brain to ask questions I had not thought of before. But my Shakespeare teacher was the one that opened my head to Shakespeare, and suddenly I realized he was not so boring anymore. Aside... Oh, I had a teacher, he was a speech, what was it? Speech interpretation, kind of performance art kind of guy. His name was Kevin Quinn. He was a friend of Andy Warhol's, and I do not know how he ended up in Sunny, but we all hung out together. As a matter of fact, Warhol or whoever, you know how Warhol always had look-alikes impersonate him?
SM (01:40:48):
Yes.
PC (01:40:48):
So either Warhol or one of his crew was at one party, but they used to hang out together. The reason this guy really influenced me was because he would crack your brain open in terms of the people, the writers. He would open you up to the questions he would ask, the basically cultural and art stuff that you would just see and understand and less of that. His apartment was always open to everybody. So he was very influential in saying, "How does the world work? What is art all about?" That sort of thing. The fact that he hung out with that whole factory crowd.
SM (01:41:38):
Yeah, yeah. Of course we all know about Edi. I read the book on Edi, which was...
PC (01:41:44):
What a tragic figure.
SM (01:41:45):
Yeah, what a tragic figure. She is beautiful too. She did not live very long. But the question, you are the first person I really talked to outside of David Lance Goins out of Berkeley, who is an artist from the Free Speech Movement. What was it about the arts from the (19)60s that were different than anything else? What was it about... From the (19)60s that were different than anything else. What was it about the art that was comparable to what was really happening? We all know about Andy Warhol, and we all know about Peter Max because Peter Max had all those posters on college campuses. I do not know if many people think of anybody beyond Warhol and Max.
PC (01:42:19):
The poet... I mean, there was a whole lot of poetry stuff going on and then there were of course happenings and all kinds of performance, but film started opening up. And that is one of the things also that completely changed my life. In the 1960s, they started things called film studies. This is when they started to actually study film on campus as a legitimate form, just like literature or art or sculpture, architecture, whatever. Film was another thing that you could study. And right from the very first classes, I went and said, "What is all this about?" You get to see movies. Well, that is nice, but you found out how to look at movies. How do movies influence you? Why do you feel the way you do when this happens? What about this camera angle? And it was completely, to me, that is when they legitimized film. Film was a legitimate medium before that. But when they started taking it seriously so that you could actually say, "Here is a whole new medium for us to work in." And I think film is the medium of the Boomer generation. It is more, music is now, film has become... Video and film has become very basic for the generation. But at that time, it was almost the same kind of explosion that happened in Russia when the beginning of film happened. When they started taking their cameras around, when Vertov took... Man with a camera, the saying, going on... All that excitement that happened in France when film was starting. And then of course, in the (19)60s, you had the New Wave in France, "And here is something else you can do with film and here and here and here." So, I think as far as the arts go, in the (19)60s and (19)70s, it was all about film. To me. I mean, there was a lot going on in poetry. There were a lot of experiments like Pynchon's the Crying of Lot 49, and some seminal books like that. But it was all about film.
SM (01:44:31):
Of course, when you think of the (19)60s, we have got to also think about what is going on around the world. Because we all know what was going on in France and Paris, and exactly what was going on in Hungary or what was going on in Poland and when Dubcek was overthrown in 1968 too. And of course, what was going on in Spain and England and all over the... Italy. I mean, there were protests, even in Japan. There were protests and a lot of them were against the war. But when you look at the film... Because I am only... Not too many people talked about the film. What were the films that really defined the Boomer Generation that you feel... It does not always have to be the (19)60s and (19)70s, but what are the films that you feel truly defined the generation?
PC (01:45:15):
Well, Easy Rider was giant. I think that as far as... If we are starting from the (19)60s, I think Easy Rider was giant. I think that Bonnie and Clyde was giant because it changed the language of film. This is going to sound bizarre, but Rocky and Bullwinkle.
SM (01:45:42):
On TV? Oh, yeah, I remember they were on TV when we came home from school.
PC (01:45:47):
Right. And the thing about Rocky and Bullwinkle was these were adult cartoons, masked as kids cartoons. And people started watching them. But that is a different thing. That is not... We are not talking about films here. I am trying to think of some of the other huge films that would have made an impact across the board people would see... I saw stuff like It, from England, the English school, so I do not know how many people saw that. A lot of people saw the Secaucus Seven, and they were involved in that kind of thing. I am trying to... Forgive my senility. I know that after we get off the phone I will-
SM (01:46:31):
I have a lot of movies that I remember had influence on me, but-
PC (01:46:34):
Oh, can you say some because-
SM (01:46:35):
Yeah, well, The Graduate was one.
PC (01:46:37):
Oh, yeah, of course.
SM (01:46:39):
And Zabriskie Point. That was a real (19)70s kind of thing. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was a real big film. I remember when that came out with Paul Newman. And some of the other ones, of course, Taxi Driver and Coming Home.
PC (01:46:59):
Okay. I never did see Coming Home.
SM (01:47:01):
Those are Vietnam films. In terms of African American films, I thought Shaft was unbelievable. And in some of those kinds of movies that were out in the early (19)70s, Black film. Let us see. Well, Easy Rider, Five Easy Pieces. Anything Jack Nicholson was in. Also the movie where he played the... Later on, the person who was mentally disabled.
PC (01:47:36):
Jack Nicholson played him?
SM (01:47:38):
Yeah. He was in the sanitarium.
PC (01:47:42):
Oh, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
SM (01:47:42):
Yeah. That was a major film because no one had talked about this issue ever. And it was in a film. So those kinds of films... And then when I think of the (19)60s, I think of Love Story.
PC (01:47:57):
Oh, yeah. I remember that one.
SM (01:47:59):
Goodbye Columbus. Anything Ali McGraw was in because she was miss (19)60s.
PC (01:48:09):
Then the Way We Were.
SM (01:48:11):
Yeah, The Way We Were with Barbara Streisand, because that remember... Even though that was about the 1930s, and it was in early (19)70s, it made me... Brought tears to my eyes, because I knew then that I would be doing the same thinking 30, 40 years from now about the (19)60s. So yeah, there were a lot of them.
PC (01:48:30):
That is when we really started talking to each other through film. I mean, film had always been around, there would always been film aficionados. But it was, I think in the (19)60s that it exploded. And that was partly because of the fact that film studies programs opened up, but also partly the fact that cameras started getting smaller and you started being able to take... Oh, that was another one. Do not Look Back. Bob Dylan's thing, which I thought it was never going to end.
SM (01:48:59):
There was the Beatles films too, which were very interesting.
PC (01:49:02):
Exactly.
SM (01:49:03):
And Apocalypse Now, which was a classic film.
PC (01:49:06):
And West Side Story.
SM (01:49:07):
Yeah. West Side Story. And-
PC (01:49:09):
I saw that a hundred times.
SM (01:49:10):
Sound of Music, which is... You can go on and on here some were...
PC (01:49:15):
Exactly.
SM (01:49:15):
Yeah. The Pink Panther film-
PC (01:49:17):
Was important to the Boomers. As far as Boomers in the Arts, I think that that is where their energy started going.
SM (01:49:24):
Right. And then in the course in the (19)50s, well, there were major films that I saw. A lot of the westerns. So anyways. A couple other questions here, and then I will end up with some questions on individual people. I got so many questions to ask you here. I have different questions for you, and I had them for David. What were, again, I just wondered, what were the books that you were reading when you were in high school and college, and what were your friends reading? Does not necessarily have to be the beatnik books.
PC (01:50:00):
Yikes. Well, of course there was... Why did my brain just go blank, please? I read a lot of Herman Hesse, I am trying to think how far back that was. I think that was later. I read Catcher in the Rye. Well, I do not know why my brain-
SM (01:50:20):
He just died. Salinger.
PC (01:50:22):
I know.
SM (01:50:23):
That is the only book he ever wrote.
PC (01:50:25):
Well, no, I read everything he wrote. He wrote Franny and Zoe.
SM (01:50:29):
He did not write very many novels though, I do not think.
PC (01:50:32):
Well, Franny and Zoe was sort of... It was a little episodic, but so, definitely everything he wrote, which was not that much. What did I write? You mean of that time?
SM (01:50:48):
Yeah. Books that may have been... That people were reading.
PC (01:50:52):
I am trying to think. Pynchon, as I mentioned. And what was the one about the guy? Oh damn. Well, Leonard Cohen wrote a lot of poetry. That, and of course there were a lot... Again, there was a lot of poetry that I was reading. People like Bob Kaufman, Carolyn Getty. Again, these are sort of going back to the beats, but that is what I was reading in early college, late high school. I am trying to think what else because I read constantly.
SM (01:51:39):
I am from a little later, and I know Greening of America was a big book by Charles Reich.
PC (01:51:45):
Right. I remember that coming out.
SM (01:51:48):
And Making of a Counterculture. They came out the same time.
PC (01:51:50):
And None There Call it Treason. As I mentioned, being a good Goldwater girl.
SM (01:51:57):
Now, the musicians, I love it. In Charles's book where he does in the introduction about all those musicians. He has got a whole page of them. I do not know if you-
PC (01:52:07):
Musicians?
SM (01:52:08):
The musicians of the era that had the greatest influence on Boomers. And then he, you turn the page and there is about 150 of them. But I mean-
PC (01:52:16):
Yeah, that is because we had the radios.
SM (01:52:18):
He forgot an important person. He did not put Phil Oaks down, but-
PC (01:52:22):
I know, I like Phil Oaks a lot.
SM (01:52:25):
Well, I am going to bring it up on Thursday that... I was trying to think. He missed seven people and groups that I thought should have been in there. But I will mention that to him. Maybe he can add it in an updated edition.
PC (01:52:36):
There you go.
(01:52:37):
Another, I always liked the Michener books.
SM (01:52:42):
The what?
PC (01:52:42):
Michener. James Michener, like Hawaii.
SM (01:52:45):
Oh, yes. He wrote Kent State too. 1970.
PC (01:52:50):
Exactly. And To Kill A Mockingbird. Yes. I like that one. And Winnie Ille Pu. Remember that?
SM (01:53:00):
Yes.
PC (01:53:01):
Winnie the Pooh in Latin.
(01:53:04):
I liked that a lot.
SM (01:53:07):
The musicians that were your favorites. I know you can... You know after those 150.
PC (01:53:09):
The entire British Invasion. You can start with the British Invasion, but Motown also. I think it is easier to do categories than it is individual-
SM (01:53:21):
Yes.
PC (01:53:22):
But Janice Joplin certainly was my hero. Jimmy Hendrix not so much, I liked a lot of the stuff he did, but more Janice Joplin. More Big Brother and the Holding company. I like Peter Paul and Mary.
SM (01:53:42):
Yep.
PC (01:53:42):
A lot. I like The Limeliters a lot. So I mean, basically that goes across folk and... I like folk, but I did not like people like Pete Seeger, who actually the real folk-
SM (01:53:52):
Is not it amazing that in... And you can see the division right here. When the Beatles came in (19)64, I can remember (19)65, (19)66, (19)67. Then around the Invasion came in six... But you had, before that you had Herb Albert and the Tijuana Brass. That was very popular. And then you had Frankie Valley and the Four Seasons and Frankie Valley, and you had those kinds of groups. Little Anthony and the Imperials, Sam Cook in the early (19)60s, and then all of a sudden it all changed.
PC (01:54:25):
Exactly.
SM (01:54:26):
And they were still very important. But you saw the change, but they were still a very important... Beach Boys were earlier, too. You saw that they were all important except in different stages of your life.
PC (01:54:37):
Exactly. Well, I was never a huge Beach Boys fan. I had friends who were. Who really liked the California kind of sound. But I was more, what I call into minor key stuff. Although I did not like jazz as much. Now I do. I like jazz a whole lot. It depended on the jazz. I love Dave Brubeck, but did not like Thelonious Monk. But in general, I would say the British Invasion, Motown were the two biggest influences. And I also liked classical music.
SM (01:55:20):
Right.
PC (01:55:21):
Too, and a little bit... And I loved the blues. Every once in a while, we would go to a blues club.
SM (01:55:27):
San Francisco, I used to live out there. They used to have great blues festivals at Golden Gate Park. I want to... Here the presidents now. These are the presidents that were part of the life of all Boomers from the time they were born from (19)46 on.
PC (01:55:43):
Okay.
SM (01:55:45):
Harry Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama. Now, Obama makes a claim that he's not a Boomer, but he really is. He was two years old in (19)62, but I guess you really cannot call him a Boomer, but he was in that era.
PC (01:56:06):
[inaudible] prejudice.
SM (01:56:07):
But of all those presidents, you have already talked a lot about Kennedy in terms of his assassination, but when you look at the influence that all these presidents may have had on the Boomers, is there some presidents that stick out more than others?
PC (01:56:22):
Oh, I wish you had just asked me who my favorite was.
SM (01:56:24):
Yeah, who is your favorite?
PC (01:56:26):
Carter.
SM (01:56:27):
Carter?
PC (01:56:28):
Yeah. I was so surprised that he actually won, because I did not think he had a chance, and I felt like here is finally an honorable man after his predecessors. And so I was thrilled to death that Carter had won. But as far as who was the most influential, well, you would have to say Reagan, whether you agreed with him or not. Certainly a huge influence on everybody's life. Johnson was a man everybody hated. But when you look back at what he actually accomplished, it was amazing. It was really good for this country. I grew up thinking Eisenhower was a president. I mean that... If the word president and Eisenhower were [inaudible] for each other. Nixon of course, again, was the ultimate bad guy to me. So, I do not know as far as who was the most influential, probably Nixon and Reagan, in terms of direct impact on people's lives.
SM (01:57:49):
I always bring Truman up and people say, "They were only 2, 3, 4 years old." But even though I was a young kid, I remember him because-
PC (01:57:58):
Do not really remember Truman.
SM (01:57:59):
The Buck stops here. And he did not like, and he did not like McCarthy. And it was well known that he did not like him.
PC (01:58:07):
MacArthur.
SM (01:58:08):
Or, yeah, no McCarthy. Well, he did not like MacArthur either, but during the McCarthy hearings-
PC (01:58:15):
Oh, I see. Okay.
SM (01:58:15):
He thought he was a nutcase. And of course, Eisenhower was always the old smiling guy. You felt good that you had a grandfather in office. Then you had a young guy coming in. Then you had Johnson, who should not have been president, but he was because of assassination. Nixon coming back from... Unbelievable how he won after losing in 1960. Then you have Ford, who many people say, was not the smartest guy in the world, but he tried to heal the country.
PC (01:58:43):
I certainly, I always gave him credit for that.
SM (01:58:46):
Then you had Reagan, and then Bush I during the Gulf War, and Clinton and Bush were the... But Clinton and Bush II were the only two Boomer presidents. Some people in my interviews have said that you can tell that Bill Clinton and George Bush, number two are Boomers. What do you think they are saying by that?
PC (01:59:04):
Because they're so... Well, certainly Bush too was a Boomer. He just happened to be from the [inaudible] point of view that I was of this sort of absolute belief that he was correct and that his way was the only way. And that he would... you know, "Screw whatever you guys think. I am doing things my way." So, I think that is true. As far as Clinton goes... I think he is Boomer-esque.
SM (01:59:37):
When you look at the eras again, when I kind of defined the Boomers into five eras, their elementary school years, their high school and college years, then their beginning of their careers and their twenties, and then... So, I break it down into the (19)40s, (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, and then the (19)90s and beyond. Can... In just a few words, how have the late (19)40s and the (19)50s influenced Boomers?
PC (02:00:10):
I think that the way they influenced the Boomers with the groundwork for a really stable... I mean you... For really stable life. I mean, you can count on things. You feel safe. You know your place in the world. So, the late (19)40s and the (19)50s did that. They gave you sort of the box to work in.
SM (02:00:35):
Explain the (19)60s.
PC (02:00:37):
Is there any explaining the (19)60s? The (19)60s, basically everything blew up. All of our basic assumptions blew up. All the new... From 1964 from The Beatles on... All the experiments in popular culture completely exploded. What are we going to do? All the possibilities were there. First we were shattered through Kennedy's death. And then... Oh, you know what I am leaving out is the entire civil rights movement, which was hugely important, I think.
SM (02:01:20):
Right.
PC (02:01:21):
In terms of fighting the bad guys, righting the wrongs. Doing something that would help the world, that people could individually do things that help the world. So that could go back in the (19)40s and (19)50s, I guess, but also in the (19)60s. So basically, I would say (19)60s were the time when the world blew up.
SM (02:01:43):
How about the (19)70s?
PC (02:01:44):
The (19)70s were the time when we went... I think that we went from changing the world to changing ourselves and became very inward. It kind of... And at that point started this whole self, self, self-thing.
SM (02:02:03):
You think we went from being a we to a me?
PC (02:02:07):
Yeah. I think so.
SM (02:02:09):
What did you think of disco? You cannot talk (19)70s without it.
PC (02:02:11):
You know what? I like that music. It is a terrible thing to say. I am sure I am politically incorrect, but I really like disco music, and I like the whole Saturday Night Fever kind of...
SM (02:02:22):
Yeah. I am a big Barry White fan, so... I think Barry White will go down in history is one of the greatest musicians of all time. And it is a little early to talk about it, but when you look at all the things he wrote and produced, oh my. And we only think about his records. I did not know he was producing concerts at major facilities all over the country. I did not know this.
PC (02:02:45):
No, I did not know that either.
SM (02:02:47):
No-no. He is much more than what we saw. He was a true musical writer. He was a kind of a genius. He knew how to play music, but he knew how to write it. And even a lot of the greats from the (19)60s could sing music, but they did not know how to write it, so they kind of experimented. How about the (19)80s? What did the (19)80s mean?
PC (02:03:07):
The (19)80s was when I was homesteading, so I was kind of completely out of it. I mean, we did not have a TV and we did not have radio. We were up in the mountains and raising our farm animals. So that is kind of hard for me. Although I was staying politically active. I was part of the sanctuary movement in Tucson. I do not know if you remember that.
SM (02:03:29):
What's that mean?
PC (02:03:30):
Hmm?
SM (02:03:31):
What is that mean?
PC (02:03:32):
Oh, there was a movement called the Sanctuary Movement that helped... Was like an underground railway kind of thing that helped people who were escaping from Guatemala and Central American countries get to safe havens in the United States. And they were illegal actually. They were being run through a Presbyterian church in Tucson. And churches... Well actually, they were pretty much church based. So I volunteered to help out with them when I could. But being up in the mountains, there was not that much I could do.
SM (02:04:11):
Explain the (19)90s to today.
PC (02:04:14):
Depressing.
SM (02:04:16):
That is all I need to hear. Okay. I can say depressing in what way? But then the... Okay.
(02:04:29):
Let me... There is something here, before we get into the individuals. When you think of the Civil Rights movement, we have not talked a lot about it. Dr. King was obviously crucial. The big four, which was James Farmer and Whitney Young, Wilkins and King, certainly Malcolm X and what he did in the (19)60s. And then we talked about Black Power and some of the changes there. And some of the people, the followed King have been the leaders of the last 20, 30 years, like Andrew Young and Jesse Jackson, and the list goes on. But the Civil Rights Movement was a great role model for the other movements that came in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. The women's movement, the environmental movement, the gay and lesbian movement, to Chicano Native American. You all kind of looked at the Civil Rights movement as a model on how to do protest and non-violent protest, those kinds of things. What are your thoughts on the lengths between these movements and the Civil Rights movements. And secondly, during that period, if you saw Earth Day in 1970, you seem to see all these groups together. All caring about the environment, but as time goes on, you do not see them together as much. They have kind of gone their separate ways, but still involved in the serious issues. So just your thoughts on the movements and their links to the Civil Rights movement.
PC (02:05:56):
I think you are right when you say that the Civil Rights movement basically gave people a background to know how to organize. Know what worked and what did not. It was kind of an empowering kind of thing. And so, I think you are right when you say that that had a tremendous effect on the other movements, if for no other reason, and that taught them logistics. As far as the environmental movement and the way it brings people together, I really... Because I was totally involved in well, being a homesteader, being alternative energy, all of that stuff, I believed in it, but I really do not feel qualified to say anything about how it worked with other movements.
SM (02:06:49):
All right. One of the things... When you look at pictures, pictures often say in a thousand words, photography is very important to you-
PC (02:07:02):
Right.
SM (02:07:02):
Your career. When you look at the times that Boomers were alive, particularly when they were young, (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s, what are the pictures that may define the generation? In fact, I remember four of them, four pictures that stand out as four of the top hundreds of the 20th century. But when you think of that period, what are the pictures that stand out in your mind?
PC (02:07:25):
Well, the little girl running in Vietnam that she had just been napalmed.
SM (02:07:30):
Yep.
PC (02:07:31):
Remember that little girl?
SM (02:07:31):
Yep. Kim Phuc.
PC (02:07:33):
The Kent State. The pictures that came out of Kent State. Wait, I am getting stuck in the (19)60s. Germany. They need to go.
SM (02:07:40):
But those are two important ones.
PC (02:07:42):
They are. I am just trying to... God, there is so many. I am just trying to pinpoint… Some of the Avedon things, just the way he handled his pictures. True, they were mostly like fashion shoots, but they were also portraits. And so, the portraits that Avedon did, particularly of Yoko and John, you remember that one-
SM (02:08:15):
Oh, yes.
PC (02:08:16):
Kind of partially curled up. So that was just from an artistic point of view. Politically... There were some from Nicaragua that are just kind of hazy in my head now. Oh, I am trying to think. I do not know. It will come to me. But those two pictures, the first two that I mentioned I think-
SM (02:08:44):
Well, one of the picture... Well, the third one I was thinking of that is really there, is that the athletes were their raised fists at the (19)68 Olympics.
PC (02:08:49):
Oh yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah.
SM (02:08:51):
John Carlos, and then Eli, that historic picture of all... Before they were murdered. The group-
PC (02:08:59):
Oh, and there is that guy kneeling in the street of Vietnam too.
SM (02:09:02):
Yes.
PC (02:09:03):
That is getting... he is being shot in the head.
SM (02:09:05):
Yep.
PC (02:09:06):
Yeah.
SM (02:09:06):
That one was there as well. And of course... So, you, you have got quite a few of the classic ones. Also, when you think of phrases that define the generation. I came up with three phrases that I felt define the generation, I want your response. One person... Well, several people gave me a fourth, which I will mention. The three are Malcolm X, number one, where he said, "by any means necessary," which is the more militant, some might say, violent aspect of the period. Bobby Kennedy, using Henry David Thoreau's quote, "some men see things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not." Symbolic of the activism and the questioning of the era, wanting to make a difference. And then the Peter Max poster that was hanging in my Ohio State graduate school room, which was very popular in 1971, which stated, "you do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." Which was kind of the hippie kind of mentality. And then not the other people gave me a fourth one, which was, "We Shall Overcome," which is symbolic of the Civil Rights Movement and the coming together. Is there any slogans that...
PC (02:10:24):
Well, the ones that instantly popped mine were "Burn, Baby, Burn."
SM (02:10:28):
Oh, yeah.
PC (02:10:29):
Which is very indicative of the whole... About what was going on. And then there was Corretta King's "War is not good for children and other living things." And there was a third one that also... Oh yeah, "Tune in, turn on and drop out."
SM (02:10:48):
Good.
PC (02:10:48):
I think that that was a really important one that people thought about.
SM (02:10:54):
Timothy Leary.
PC (02:10:55):
Exactly.
SM (02:10:56):
Yeah.
(02:10:57):
One of the things when we talk about the Civil Rights movement is the sexism that took place within that movement. And that is oftentimes the reason why the women's movement was stronger than it may have been as kind of a shoot off. Were you well aware when you were in college and in your twenties about the sexism that took place and most of the movements that men were in charge and women were kind of second class?
PC (02:11:22):
I think we did not even think about it that much. I mean, this is the way it was. And later on, when we really started thinking about, "Oh, I am a woman. I can have a say too, other than whispering in my honey's ear at night, and maybe he will take the idea to the rest of the guys." I think we... I was not aware of the sexism because I just did not think in terms of that. It was like, oh, the movement and the guys leading it, and this is the way it is. And that is why one reason for me, Angela Davis was really important because you have this really strong Black woman who was like a leader. That was different.
SM (02:12:10):
And she was not... A lot of people think she was part of Black Power... I mean, Black Panthers, she was not a Black Panther. She-
PC (02:12:14):
[inaudible].
SM (02:12:17):
She was involved in the prison system with George Jackson and to Black Power, but she was not into the Black Panther party.
PC (02:12:27):
But she was a real spokesperson.
SM (02:12:29):
And she still is. She is still writing good books. Why do you feel the term Vietnam and Quagmire, just to bring that those two words up in any conversation today, bring so much tension.
PC (02:12:42):
Oh, does it?
SM (02:12:45):
During the Iraq War, and certainly Afghanistan, when we were going over there and people were making comparisons, people said, it is another quagmire in Vietnam. Here go the Boomers again.
PC (02:12:57):
That interesting because that... It never occurred to me that it would make any... Because it is so obviously true. I guess I never ran into that reaction.
SM (02:13:07):
Well, it happens on university campuses, particularly amongst Boomers. And so, it is almost like if you even bring up Vietnam and Quagmire, it is like, well, here is the new left again, or here's the bringing back everything that happened back then again to what is happening today.
PC (02:13:26):
Oh, interesting. No, I had not run into it.
SM (02:13:28):
And that happened during the Gulf War, too, back in the (19)90s.
PC (02:13:31):
Yeah.
SM (02:13:31):
Some of the Vietnam vets talked about it. Let us see. I am almost done here.
(02:13:42):
One of the things about activism... And you obviously, I think you have been an activist during your life. Activism is different than volunteerism. Today on college campuses, volunteerism is at an all-time high. I would probably say over 90 percent of students are involved in volunteer work of some kind.
PC (02:13:58):
Wow.
SM (02:13:59):
Some of it has required and some they just do it on their own. And that is been happening since the (19)80s. So, you cannot be critical of the last two generations of students for volunteerism. But I have always felt that that is not activism, as you define it. Define activism as a 24-7 feeling and living a seven days a week and 365 days a year. And I feel that universities today are afraid of that term "activism" and they do not like to use it. Do you have any sense or feeling that that is a word that people are afraid of today? The term "activism?"
PC (02:14:38):
I think people have always been afraid of the word "activism" because I think that basically people have said, "Oh, she is an activist. That means that she is strident, she is judgmental, she is angry at the world." So, I do not think people have at any time really felt comfortable with that word. And so, I am not surprised that campuses which do not strike me as bastions of left wing... They are no longer hot beds of left-wing activity. I do not think that they would be comfortable with that word anymore.
SM (02:15:19):
Of course, the critics-
PC (02:15:20):
Because nobody is because everybody is kind of threatened by the word. The minute we say activism, they start thinking about closing down college buildings and basically marching of the street’s kind of...
SM (02:15:32):
Course the David Horowitz is in Phyllis [inaudible] of the world say that the universities are nothing but liberal.
PC (02:15:40):
I know.
SM (02:15:40):
And education is the worst it has ever been according to their point of view.
PC (02:15:45):
Yeah. Well, what can I say? I just...
SM (02:15:49):
The last question before I just ask the names of people for you to respond, then we are done. Why did the Equal Rights Amendment fail in your opinion?
PC (02:15:58):
As I mentioned, I just read a book about it, and so basically my opinions are pretty much-
PC (02:16:03):
And so basically, my opinions are pretty much the same as the book. Between the time they actually passed the amendment and put out to the states to ratify, and the time that they were supposed to be ratified, a lot of states had done what they needed to do to correct the situation in legislation for women. And so it was no longer such a strong issue. For one thing, it took forever to get through. But it was no longer such a strong issue, but then when it came time to vote for the amendment, people would say, "Well look, we have already got the law, they already addressed this situation. So, I think that is why it failed in the end.
SM (02:16:47):
When Reagan came into power, he made a speech, first speech he said, "We are back" and the place went crazy in a room where he spoke. And then when President Bush one said, "The Vietnam Syndrome is over," he said, "The Vietnam Syndrome is over," and everybody stood up and clapped their hands. It is not only how they said it, but what they said that still implies division in the country. What do you think Reagan meant when he said, "We are back," in 1981 when he became president? And what did President Bush mean in 1989 when he said the Vietnam Syndrome is over?
PC (02:17:30):
Well I think Reagan really meant the conservatives are back, "You have had your revolution, now it is over. We are back and we are going to take charge." As far as Bush one, I really was not familiar with that speech but I would suspect that his definition for the Vietnam Syndrome might be that, "We are going to have a war and you're not going to protest it to death." I do not know, that is just my hunch.
SM (02:18:00):
And in 2004 when John Kerry was running for president, the Vietnam veterans that came out against him, remember?
PC (02:18:10):
The Swift Boat guys?
SM (02:18:10):
Yeah, and the Vietnam veterans against the war, the divisions were still there. It was amazing some of the terrible things that were said about him. It is indicating that the battle is still continuing. What were your thoughts when you saw that?
PC (02:18:24):
Well I kept thinking, "The conservatives have the media," period. And so they're going to pick up stories like that. I do not know that that was an everyday kind of thing. I think that the divisions that are in this country are definitely far huger than any other seen in my lifetime, far more divisive, far more profound than at any time and uglier.
SM (02:18:47):
Could you explain that because this is still the lives of Boomers?
PC (02:18:52):
It is still the lives of Boomers, but basically the divisions have happened during the last, what, 20 years?
SM (02:19:03):
Mm-hmm.
PC (02:19:04):
Wait, but this is 2010. During the last 20 years a lot of it is from the media. Do we take responsibility for the entire division of the country? No, I do not think so. I think that X'ers who are now in their, what, their forties?
SM (02:19:21):
Mm-hmm.
PC (02:19:22):
And more, they are certainly a huge part of this. Things have just gotten uglier and uglier and I do not think that you can blame the boomers for all of that. I think it is about time that the X'ers stand up and start taking responsibility about some of their responsibilities in all of this.
SM (02:19:48):
And actually, some of the millennials because they are now of age to work.
PC (02:19:49):
They are now of age to work but they have not had the chance-
SM (02:19:52):
Right-
PC (02:19:53):
... to basically really influence the culture the way the X'ers have. And yet the X'ers will influence the culture and say, "Look, it is all the Boomers, it is all the Boomers." I am sick of it.
SM (02:20:04):
Yeah. Okay, now we are finally down to the names and the terms, and then we will end it. Just very quick thoughts, very quick thoughts. Your thoughts on Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin.
PC (02:20:15):
Two different people. Abbie Hoffman, iconoclast. Do you just want words?
SM (02:20:20):
Yep.
PC (02:20:21):
Okay. Abbie Hoffman, iconoclastic, had a great point. Okay, and that is all I will say. And Jerry Rubin was very serious and turned very sold-out.
SM (02:20:42):
Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda.
PC (02:20:45):
Tom Hayden, I think, was a sincere guy who stuck to his beliefs or has stuck to his beliefs. Jane Fonda is a child of her century or a child of her generation. She has explored all the different areas and become a lot of different things and in a lot of different ways.
SM (02:21:06):
Talking about movies, she did Klute and then she also did the one with her dad. Which was...
PC (02:21:12):
On Golden Pond.
SM (02:21:13):
That is another classic film, coming to terms there. Timothy Leary.
PC (02:21:19):
Tim Leary was a very smart guy who basically saw absurdity for what it was and decided to bring drugs to the masses.
SM (02:21:27):
Smothers Brothers.
PC (02:21:29):
I loved them, just really amusing and smart in the way that they presented their politics.
SM (02:21:36):
Laugh-In.
PC (02:21:38):
Again, very smart in the way it presented what it had to say. And it was just a good time.
SM (02:21:49):
Huey Newton and Bobby Seale.
PC (02:21:53):
I think they were sincere radicals who live what they believed.
SM (02:21:59):
Benjamin Spock and Norman Mailer.
PC (02:22:03):
Benjamin Spock was a very interesting guy in terms of being a doctor and influencing the way that Boomers were brought up in the first place. And then, continued to delve into what his beliefs really were. I am sorry, who was the other one?
SM (02:22:20):
Norman Mailer.
PC (02:22:22):
I do not really know enough about Norman Mailer to make a good statement.
SM (02:22:27):
William Buckley and Barry Goldwater.
PC (02:22:30):
Good old Barry Goldwater was an idealist from the right. I think he was a straight shooter and I think that he really did do what he believed. I am sorry, who was the other one?
SM (02:22:47):
William Buckley.
PC (02:22:48):
Buckley. Okay, I never agreed much with what Buckley had to say, and yet I really felt that he thought things through. He was funny, he was smart and he actually said what he believed in an articulate way.
SM (02:23:06):
Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew.
PC (02:23:10):
Spiro Agnew was a clown and dispensable. Richard Nixon was cracked I believe, but a very smart guy. And he was just insane.
SM (02:23:29):
Dwight Eisenhower and Gerald Ford.
PC (02:23:32):
Dwight Eisenhower was like grandpa. He was the definition of the presidency. When I grew up I felt that he was benign. I still feel he was benign. Gerald Ford did his best, as I said earlier, to heal the nation. I think he was a sincere guy who did the best he could under an amazing set of circumstances.
SM (02:23:59):
Joseph McCarthy and Eugene McCarthy.
PC (02:24:02):
Joe McCarthy was an ideologue. If he could have been Hitler he would have been. He was a manipulator. I think that Eugene McCarthy was a very sincere guy. Well he certainly was not as politically savvy as he needed to be to get his stuff done.
SM (02:24:24):
George McGovern and Robert McNamara.
PC (02:24:28):
Robert McNamara was a liar and he was an opportunist. Eugene McGovern-
SM (02:24:39):
George.
PC (02:24:41):
Oh, George McGovern, sorry.
SM (02:24:42):
Yep.
PC (02:24:45):
I do not really know enough to say. He was an idealist and he tried his best, but he was ineffective, I thought.
SM (02:24:52):
How about Sargent Shriver and the Peace Corps?
PC (02:24:57):
With both of those, great idealism and an effective way to actually put your idealism to work. I think that it actually mobilized a generation.
SM (02:25:09):
John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy.
PC (02:25:12):
John Kennedy, I used to think a lot more of him than I do now. But he was articulate, he knew how to mobilize the idealism of the people under him and the idealism of the nation. He had a lot of good things that he did. He had a lot of really terrible things that he did. Robert Kennedy was a sly dog. He was obsessed by certain ideas that he followed.
SM (02:25:48):
Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr.
PC (02:25:52):
Martin Luther King, Jr., I think really, he had his finger on what I believe in, which is non-violence as much as possible. I think that he was an amazing organizer. He did not have too much respect for women but that is his issue. And so I think he was effective. As far as Malcolm X goes, I can certainly understand why he felt the way he did, and yet it is very hard for me to accept somebody who advocates violence the way he did.
SM (02:26:25):
Lyndon Johnson and George Wallace.
PC (02:26:29):
Oh, interesting combo. Lyndon Johnson was the ultimate politician who was the smart guy in terms of knowing how to manipulate people and manipulate the system, the situation. And I used to think a lot less of him than I do now. But at least he used his power to get social programs through and to do a lot for this nation. George Wallace, I do not know what to think of George Wallace. He is certainly, obviously not flavor-of-the-month with me because I do not believe in any of the things he believed in. But aside from that I have no...
SM (02:27:15):
Okay, Ronald Reagan and Hubert Humphrey.
PC (02:27:19):
Hubert Humphrey was ineffective, and that is why he did not get to be president. And Ronald Reagan used all of his abilities as an actor to get to where he wanted to go. He believed in what he said he believed in. I think he was honest that way but I also cannot agree with his policies at all.
SM (02:27:46):
Okay, Daniel Ellsberg and Daniel and Phillip Berrigan.
PC (02:27:51):
The Ellsbergs and Berrigans were friends of my sisters, so I believed in what they did. I believed that they did what they believe to bring the issues to the American people. And if you had to do that by dramatically pouring blood on some draft files then that is what you did. But I am not aware of how much they did after that, besides writing.
SM (02:28:21):
How about the women leaders, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Freidan, that group.
PC (02:28:28):
Three different people. Gloria Steinem, I liked the way she's handled her involvement with the women's movement. Everything from her essay on being a Playboy Bunny so that people could see what it was actually like being the glamour girl of the movement. Bella Abzug and Betty Freidan, very serious women, very driven by their vision. And flexible, certainly, on Freidan's part. So, they do not leave a huge impression beyond that.
SM (02:29:16):
Tet, which was very important in (19)68 and John Dean.
PC (02:29:23):
John Dean, I will do John Dean first. John Dean, I hated him because I thought that he was so whiny, just like the whole rest of the Watergate guys and arrogant. He thought he could get away with anything and then, whammo, he was off to the slammer. And so I had no sorrow for that piece of information. The Tet Offensive was appalling and I think it was hard for anybody to trust after that [inaudible].
SM (02:30:03):
Muhammad Ali and William Kunstler.
PC (02:30:06):
Muhammad Ali, I liked from the minute he hit the world was his Cassius Clay-dom. I liked the way he made poems. Even though he would say appalling, "I am the best," that kind of stuff, I never really felt that he took himself all that seriously. He promoted himself, to be taken so seriously, I do not think so. So he was amusing and he was valuable because he was amusing, but he also made the statement that he needed to make about the Vietnam War and the other thing. And then William Kunstler, I never had a huge since of anything was real clean. He was there. He was partaking of history, but I had no strong...
SM (02:30:52):
How about the AIDS crisis and Harvey Milk.
PC (02:30:58):
Oh, the AIDS crisis. I am sorry, I thought you said the age crisis. The AIDS crisis was so badly handled. And so many more people died because of screw up than had to. It's been really sad. And then Harvey Milk, I do not really know that much about him. I know he was a good guy. I know, essentially, what he did, particularly for gay rights. And I think it was horrible that he was murdered. But I do not have any strong feeling. I do not know much.
SM (02:31:35):
How about the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64, and Stonewall?
PC (02:31:41):
Free Speech Movement, I loved the idea but I thought they got silly about it. Because free speech is not about being able to say fuck. Free speech is about being able to say, "This guy is a crook," or "There is something wrong here." So as far as the actual use of the naughty word, I thought it got too silly. [inaudible] said it was [inaudible]?
SM (02:32:09):
Stonewall.
PC (02:32:10):
Stonewall. Stonewall was just heartbreaking, serious.
SM (02:32:20):
And Earth Day.
PC (02:32:22):
Earth Day is, it is a nice little celebration.
SM (02:32:29):
When the best history books are written on the Boomer generation, whether that be 50 years after a particular era or after they pass, what do you think sociologists and historians will say about the Boomer generation, their legacy?
PC (02:32:50):
It depends on who is writing it.
SM (02:32:52):
Good point.
PC (02:32:52):
If it's Generation X they will do nothing but cream them. If it is, say, an unknown generation many years down the road, basically it will depend on their point of view. Whether they're the kind of people that like to tear things apart and rebuild it. How do people look at the French Revolution? I think that is what it is now. Basically, the terror that happened after the French Revolution, some people say it was a good thing. Some people say it was horrible. So I think that will be the same, the same way of viewing it. It depends on your need for structure and your need for stability as to how you will view the Boomers.
SM (02:33:42):
What do you hope your legacy will be once you are gone? And I know you have said a lot of things already, but how did you become who you are?
PC (02:33:54):
What I would hope my legacy would be is that I inspired people to do something greater than they thought they could do, or to see things, to see the world around them. That is what I do in my movies. What made me who I am, a number of things. I grew up Catholic. That was extremely influential. I was taught to always go for the ideal, to never be happy with the status quo, to work for the poor, blah, blah, the poor, the underprivileged, that kind of stuff. So I think that had a huge influence. And then of course, my family was very staunch Catholic, too, so they did, as well.
SM (02:34:55):
Yeah, it is interesting that Charles, in his book, talks about the difference between John Kenney and Eugene McCarthy. And their Catholicism is pretty interesting.
PC (02:35:06):
Oh, really?
SM (02:35:06):
Yeah, if you read the introduction. I had not seen it before, because I knew that Senator McCarthy did not like Bobby, and we all knew that.
PC (02:35:14):
Right.
SM (02:35:14):
But I thought he liked John more. Actually, he did like John more as time went on. But there were problems in the (19)60s and Charles did a very good job in his introduction of explaining the differences. McCarthy thought he was a better Catholic than Kennedy. And a lot of it had to do with when he made the comments about whether he could be president of the United States and that the Catholic Church would influence his decisions because he was a man of conscience. Well McCarthy took offense to that and said, "I do not think Kennedy has a conscience." But he did not attack him for his Catholic faith, but John Kennedy looked at that as attack. And so, they were not very good friends for a while, but when he died McCarthy gave a great speech showing a lot of emotion.
PC (02:36:02):
Yeah.
SM (02:36:04):
Yeah. So, anyways, the last thing I want to ask you is here, because on your [inaudible], what does stone pilgrim mean?
PC (02:36:14):
Oh, as I mentioned, I am a person who hunts down public sculptures. And so therefore, I am a pilgrim of stone or bronze.
SM (02:36:23):
Have you been to Gettysburg?
PC (02:36:25):
I have not. That is always been on my to-do list, but it is not a place I have gone.
SM (02:36:30):
I go there four times. You have got to come because what is really interesting about Gettysburg, you drive on the southern side and you see all these little confederate flags left. You never see anything left on the north side.
PC (02:36:40):
Really?
SM (02:36:42):
No, nothing. It is always the South. Yet when I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly last week, she said that the South has healed much better than the North, that the North has never healed from the war and the South has. And so we even got differences of opinion as to who has healed from the Civil War. But one of the things that you mentioned, which is very interesting, you said in your frequent journeys to Europe you provided scope. Her occasional jaunts to South America and Asia have jolted her. Your perceptions and assumptions about the world, what are those?
PC (02:37:17):
Okay, I am sorry, what did I say?
SM (02:37:19):
"Her frequent journeys to Europe provide scope to her views. And occasional jaunts to South America and Asia have jolted her perceptions and assumptions about the world."
PC (02:37:30):
Are you talking in terms of just South America and Asia?
SM (02:37:33):
Yeah, yeah, because it is on your website.
PC (02:37:36):
Okay, well, specifically I have gone to Taiwan, which is where my nephew lives. And I assumed, basically, that they would be very concerned about their relationship with China. And also, as far as talking to people who have been to Vietnam, I assume the same thing. It turns out that the generations now could care less. And that really jolted me. I thought the people who lived there would be completely political. They are not political, certainly not in Taiwan, not terribly political people. They just want to get on with their lives, and in Vietnam the same way. From the people I have talked to in Vietnam they do not even know the war, they do not want to know the war. They just want to get on with life. So that was a real jolt. As far as South America goes, we have been to Bogota, which is where David's son lives. At first, I was terrified because I thought, "Oh, my God, we are going to be kidnapped." But the thing that jolted my assumption there is you get so used to it, it's just like walking around the corner, "Now I am in Newport, Now I am in Bogota." It is the sameness, the ordinariness. Not the sameness, but the ordinariness of life there. And the same thing in Taiwan. You expect everything to be so exotic, but in fact, it is really very ordinary, but with different trappings. And so that, I think, is what shapes my assumptions.
SM (02:39:16):
Why?
PC (02:39:17):
Why you think it is exotic is because it is not here.
SM (02:39:21):
This is the last question, so believe me. I have been saying that. But why do you feel that religion seemed to be so important in the (19)50s? Bringing up in a Catholic Church, I am sure there was a lot of people coming to church. I went to the Methodist Church, my grandfather was a minister.
PC (02:39:36):
Oh.
SM (02:39:38):
And he was actually raised a Catholic but he rebelled because his father abandoned him and his brother, so he rebelled against the Catholic church and became a Methodist minister. It is a long story. He was the minister of the first Methodist church in Peeksgill, New York from 1936 to 1954-
PC (02:39:57):
Wow-
SM (02:39:58):
... when he retired. And then went and moved to Manhattan and passed away two years later, he was very young. But then it seemed like something in the (19)60s. Just, people were not going to church, synagogue or anything. There seemed to be a lessening of numbers. And I was wondering, was that part of everything that was happening, that people were challenging the church, too?
PC (02:40:22):
Do you think that those numbers dropped in the (19)60s or after the (19)60s?
SM (02:40:25):
They were dropping in the (19)60s, in the (19)60s and (19)70s.
PC (02:40:27):
Okay, well among the young people there was certainly a lot of questioning going on.
SM (02:40:34):
Right.
PC (02:40:38):
I think it is because the breaking apart of the basic assumptions of society, that this is what you do, this is how you do it. And then once you open that can of worms, you cannot hold it together anymore.
SM (02:40:56):
Right.
PC (02:40:56):
Basically, people are not going to only question, " Well, is this political party, right?" But they are also going to say, "Do I really have to go to church every week? What is the point of this?" That whole breaking apart and saying, "What is the point here?" Basic assumptions, what are the basic assumptions here?
SM (02:41:17):
Yeah. I was knocking my brain to remember when I first remembered a minister giving a social message. I remember they were always dealing with what was happening in the world. Because I went to church in Cortland, New York when I was a kid growing up. Dr. Nason gave great sermons. And I went to my grandfather's church and he gave great sermons. They were always dealing with religion and God. And I was wondering when the church started making political commentary about what was happening in the world. I know Dr. King did it all the time at his church.
PC (02:41:51):
Right.
SM (02:41:52):
And I know probably, Dr. Nason. And they were all doing it, but they were doing it in much more subtler ways than Dr. King. Then everything seemed to change. In the (19)60s ministers and rabbis, they were just about like anybody else. They were starting to give political commentary in church. So, I was wondering if that may have turned people off.
PC (02:42:13):
Well I went to Catholic grade schools and Catholic high school. And we were taught a lot about questioning and [inaudible] there. And so, we would be more likely to get a priest talking about the rightness or wrongness of a war, or whatever.
SM (02:42:36):
That is good.
PC (02:42:38):
But I think you are right. I think in general it did not happen very often until the (19)60s. And then you had that whole brouhaha over liberation theology. The Vatican came out against it.
SM (02:42:56):
And then, obviously, seeing the Berrigan Brothers and Malcolm Boyd and-
PC (02:43:03):
Exactly-
SM (02:43:03):
...others that is out there on the front lines, Rabbi Heschel. They were not-
PC (02:43:10):
You have got the Quakers, always-
SM (02:43:11):
They were not the norm. But then they ended up trying to become the norm, though. Was there any question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask?
PC (02:43:21):
I think you covered everything. I was very interested to find out whether you were going to cover birth control. That was my big thing, I suppose. I said, "Well if he is going to talk to a woman he is probably going to want to talk about birth control." But aside from that, no, I think that you have covered everything I can possibly think of.
SM (02:43:36):
I know I expect to talk to David. Somehow and some way I have got to get your pictures. Normally, I take pictures in person. Then I am going to put them at the top of each of the interviews. So, at some juncture in the next month, would it be possible for you to send me a couple pictures, and David, a couple pictures of both of you individually?
PC (02:43:53):
Yeah, sure, no problem, I will [inaudible]-
SM (02:43:56):
And I do not know if you have my mailing address.
PC (02:43:59):
I have got your email address.
SM (02:44:00):
Let me give you my mailing address. It is-
PC (02:44:03):
Okay, wait a minute. Wait-wait-wait-wait.
SM (02:44:05):
Certainly. I am going to take Charles' picture in person this Thursday.
PC (02:44:09):
Oh, good. Love that.
SM (02:44:11):
My address is 3323-
PC (02:44:15):
Wait, I cannot find my pen.
SM (02:44:17):
That was like me, I am always short on pens.
PC (02:44:20):
All right, I am just going to open a Word document. Okay, I am sorry, 3320-
SM (02:44:26):
3323 Valley Drive, V-A-L-L-E-Y Drive.
PC (02:44:29):
Okay.
SM (02:44:30):
In West Chester, and West Chester is two words, Pennsylvania, 19382. And I am, of course, Steven R. McKiernan.
PC (02:44:40):
Okay, great. But you want the pictures via email, right?
SM (02:44:44):
Yep. Or email, or mail them in person. If you can send them in person I would prefer it through the mail.
PC (02:44:55):
Okay, I will see if I can...
SM (02:44:56):
Yeah, two different ones of each of you. And if David has a picture of him in front of his book case or you have a picture of you in front of a bunch of art, I would even love that. I would love to have a close-up, if possible, of both of you. But then, David's a scholar. And I have gotten a lot of pictures of scholars in front of their book shelves or at their desk where they write. And then, you are an artist and a writer. So, if you have a background, too, that will be great.
PC (02:45:21):
Okay, great.
SM (02:45:22):
And, well, I am glad I talked to you Patti.
PC (02:45:25):
Well thank you so much for calling.
SM (02:45:26):
You and David are a great couple. Have a great day.
PC (02:45:30):
You, too.
SM (02:45:30):
Bye.
PC (02:45:31):
Bye-bye.
(End of interview)
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Title
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Interview with Patti Cassidy
Contributor
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Cassidy, Patti ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Political activists--United States; Cassidy, Patti--Interviews
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-02-22
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.33a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.33b
Date Modified
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2017-03-14
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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165:33
Description
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Patti Cassidy is a playwright and producer. She wrote her first play on a dare in a Mexican border town in southern Arizona. From then on her work has been produced from LA to Paris. Cassidy currently is co-producing a series of readings of plays in the greater Boston area. She has a Bachelor's degree in English Language and Literature from SUNY Albany.
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6b9a215787772298a00b368362aac624.pdf
b9f8603ba41c62072c39daf7ee9b3598
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMTON
B
E
Y E R S I T Y
STATE U N I V E R S I T Y OF NEW Y OR K
[4
217224
D E P A R T M E N T
Masters ’ Recital
Daniel Ibeling, tenor
with
Amanda Chmela, soprano
and
Pej Reitz, piano
Saturday, February 27, 2 0 1 0
8: 00pm
Casadesus Recital Hall
�Handel debuted his opera Atalanta in 1736, wh ich was created specifically for
the wedding celebration of Frederick, the Prince of Wales. While popular in its
day, the opera is rarely performed. Aminta sings Di ad Irene in the third act,
furious over Irene’s decision to leave him for another man.
PROGRAM
Di ad Irene
from Atalanta
George Friderick Handel
(16851759)
O wuss! ich doch den weg zuriick
Sonntag
..Johannes Brahms
(18331897)
Di ad Irene
Di ad Irene, tiranna,
Infedele, ria,
Go tell Irene, the tyrant,
Crudele d’un mostro peggjore, .
Ah, no... Dille, dille piuttosto,
ic,
Dille ch’un core qunl e i l m
Piu trovar non potra.
Unfaithful, wicked,
The m lone iswone fl un u m onsl e r
Ah, m.,.tzll Plummet,
Tell her that a heart better than mine.
She will never find
Dille, Barbara, dille
Ma ché 7
Tell, the barbarous one, tell her .,
But what?
No, che basta
No, it is enough
For my pure faith,
To see those serene eyes
With the first indication of loving
compasion
Wie bist du, meine Konigin
Alla pura mia (E,
Di veder quei begli occhi serene
Con la prima amorosa pieta
Four Moravian Duets, Op. 20.
I. Promény
While most musicians struggle to gain recognition, in 1853 Robert Schu man
wrote an article claiming 20year old Johannes Brahms was “destined to give
ideal expression to the times.” Though this placed the burden of expectation on
him, Brahms would live up to his billing. These three selections are wonderful
examples of the Romantic period, filled with rich harmonies, and delicate word
painting.
II. Rozlou¢eni
III. Chudoba
Antonin Dvol‘ék
(18411904)
I V . Vufe sohaj, vuie
O wit/It ich doch den Weg zuriick
0 w ut ich doch den Weg zufllck,
Den lichen Weg zum Kinderland!
O warum sucht’ ich nach dcm Gluck
wlNTERMISSION a
Poéme d ‘unjour...
I. Rencontre
II. Toujours
Ill.Adieu
To Julia . . .
I. The bracelet
II. The maiden blush
III. To daisies
IV. The night piece
V . Julia’s hair
VI. Cherry ripe
Und lleB der Mutter Hand?
....Gabriel Fauré
(18451924)
Roger Quilter
(18771953)
O wie mich sehnet auszuruhn,
Von keinem Streben aufgeweckt,
Oh, if I only knew the road back,
The deer road to childhood’s land!
Oh, why did I search for happiness
And leave my mother’s hand?
Oh, how I long wben tmt,
Not to be awakened by anything,
Die moden A ugen zuzutun,
To shut my weary eyes,
With love gently surrounding!
Und nichts zu forschm, nichts zu splhn,
Und nur zu traumen leicht und Iind,
Der Zeiten Wandel nicht zu sehn,
Zum zweiten Mal ein Klnd’
Only dreams, sweet and mild;
Not to notice the changes of time,
To be once more a child!
Von Liebe sanft bedeckt!
O zeigt mir doch den Weg zuruck,
Den lieben Weg zum Kmderland!
Vergebens such ich nach dem Gluck,
Ringsum ist oder Strand!
Nothing to search for, nothing to beware of,
Oh, do show me the road back,
The dear road to childhood’s land!
In vain I search for happiness, around me
naught but deserted beach and sand!
�Sonntag
So hab’ ich dochdieynuWoche
Mein feines Liebchen nicht geaeh‘n,
lch sah es an einem Sonntag
Wohl vor der Tare steh’n:
Das tausendschone Jungfraulein,
Das tausendschone Herzelein,
Wollte Gott, wollte Gott, ieh war’ lueute bei
ihr!
So will mir doch die ganze Woche
Das Lachen nicht vergeh’n,
Ich sah as an einem Sonntag
Wohl in die Kirche geh’n:
Das tausendschone Jungfraulein,
Das tausendschone Herzelein,
Wollte Gott, wollte Gott, ich war’ heute bei
ihr!
Wie bist du, meine Konigin
Thiswholeweeltlhavena
Sealmydeliclttsweefiuelrt
IuwhaonSu mlIy.
Standirginfimtofthedoor:
m fi m d n m b e o u fi f u l g irl,
‘l’iuatthnusandliuumbeluait‘uihfltt
WouId,God,IwaewithktodayI
This whole week, my laughing
Has not ceased,
I saw her on Sunday,
Going to church:
‘That thousandtimes beautiful girl,
WoudlG
.od ,I werewhti h
erotday!
That thousandtm
i es beautiful heart,
Du lachle nur, Lenzdifte wehn
Durch mein Gemiute, wonnevoll!
How blissful you are, my queen,
When you are gentle and good!
Merely smile, and spring fragrance waits
Though my spirit blissfully!
Frisch aufgeblihter Rosen Glanz,
Vergleich ich ihn dem deinigen?
Shallloompartittoyouus?
Wie bist du, meine Konigin,
Durch sanfte Gute wonnevoll!
Ach, uba alles, was da blaht,
Ist deine Blitte wonnevoll!
Durch tote Wasten wandle hin,
Und griine Schatten breiten sich,
Ob furchterliche Schwile dort
Ohn Ende brute, wonnevoll!
Lab mich vergehn in deitietn Arm!
Es ist ihm ja selbst der Tod,
Ob auch die herbste Todesqual
Die Brust durduwnte, wonnevoll!
The brightness offruhly blooming roses,
Ahsoaring over all thlthoonu
Isyourblonun, blissful!
Wander through dead wastelands,
And green shadows will be spreading,
Even if fearful sultriness
Broods there without end... blissfully!
Let me die in your arms!
It is in them that death itself,
Even iftheshatpestpain
Ragesin mybrelst .. is blissful!
Antonin Dvofak composed his Moravian Duets in 18751876, for soprano (or
alto), and tenor. The texts for each of the four songs are drawn from traditional
Czech folk songs. The text isn’t a dialogue in a true sense, but rather unison
thoughts shared between two narrators, the second piece being the exception.
No.1 Promény
No.1 Transformations
Darmo se ty trapis,
In vain you pine,
Nenosim ja tebe,
I don’t carry you,
ma jmliy synetku,
Nenosim v srdecku;
A j l t voja nebudu
ani jednu hodinu.
copak sob! mysli3,
m
a mail panauko,
Dyt ’ sit ty to moje
Rozmilé srderuko;
A ty musifi byt ma
Lebo mi t& Pan Buu‘ h da
My dear sweetheart,
I d on ’tun y you i n m y l m tt;
And I won‘t be yours
For even one hour.
Whatever are you thinking,
My dear girl,
For you are my
Darling sweetheart,
And you must be mine,
Orthel iordGodwiIlgi veyoutome
No.2 Rodoud‘ent’
No.2Slylng Farewell
A ja se ti nezato¢im,
In a circle as a ‘good night’!
And I won‘t twirl around you,
I must go to the field.
Zatot se mn!, galartecko,
NA dobro noc do kola!
Ja muslm jlt do pola.
Do polecka sireiuo,
Nevidet tam Zadného.
Jenom vtatka sokolitka,
Pana Boha samého.
Twirl around me, sweetheart,
To the wide little field,
‘Where no one is in sight;
Only a little falcon
And the Lord God himself
Zao
t € sa okoo
l mia,
Jako vtagek
Jarabagek okolo pita!
Twirl, sweetheart,
Twirl around me,
Like a little hawk
Around a tree trunk!
Udelej koletko,moja,
Make a little c ircle,
Bude3 moja
You will be mine,
ZatoX sat ty, galanoékn,
Moja, ylmecko.
No.1 Chudoba
Ach, co je to za stavicek.
Co tak pekn!, p&kné zpiva?
Ach, to je muj najmilejsi,
Ze mne se vysmiva.
Ty se ze mne ntvysmuvej.
Circle, my sweetheart,
No.1 Poverty
Ah, what is that, like a nightingale,
What so nicely, nicely sings?
Ah, that is my dearest,
At me he mocks.
Don’t mock me,
Z chudobnej siroty,
A poor orphan,
Ani Zadne 3aty.
Nor any clothes.
Ty se ze mne névysmivej,
Z chudobnej siroty,
a poor orphan,
Chot’ ja némam ladnych penéz,
Chot’ ja némam Zadnych penéz,
Ani b dne 3aty.
Jenom ten vinek zeleny,
Kery mam na hlavt,
A tenjedau Suranedek,
Kery mam na sob!
For I don‘t have any money,
Don’t mock me,
For I don’t have any money,
Not any clothes
Only this wreath green,
Which I have on my head,
And this one dress,
Which I have on myself.
�No.4 Vure Sohaj, vufe
(Der letzte wunsch)
Vufe 3ohaj, vuie
V zelenyin héhofe,
Polihni konitka
Po hedbévne Si‘ii’ihe.
Ta smite hedbdvnk
na pole strhan,
nevel‘, mila, never,
3ak je laska plan’a
Neveéf, milk, nevfi,
A b k nemas Itemo
Suhajek falesné
Pojcde na vojno.
Debech mela koiia,
Sama bech s heinjela,
Aspon bech videla,
Kde bech zahynula.
A zahynuli ja,
the helmalpha
T
(HNo.4 Hepbm,
he plows, t
e Las t W
s
i
h
)
he beloved plows
You ask me to be quiet,
In green hiII,
He drives little horse
Et de me’n aller, solitaire,
Sans me rappeler quij aimais!
and to depart alone
without thinking of the one whom I love!
‘l’hat rein o f silk
Rips on the field,
Don’t believe, dear,
For his love is false.
Demandez plutdt aux etoi a
De tomber dans I’immensité,
A la nuit de perdre ses voiles,
Au jour de perdre sa clarté,
Yaimightmoreeailyaskthestars
to fall fiorntluslry,
or the nightto li ft its veils,
Don’t believe, dear, don’t believe
For you shouldn’t believe
A false boy
Demandezllamaimmense
who will go to the army.
Ulpaisersasombramnyotsl
Irid,wla=itluwindsaretagingdanentedly,
askfltemmmlmtheirdisnal sobbing!
Iflhadaliorse,
lumuldgaalonewithhim,
Atleastlwouldsee
Mais n’asperea pas que rnon dme
S’arrache 4 ses dpres douel urs
eanuptootitssomrw
With silk reins,
Wliaelwoulddie.
And i fl will die,
we will both die,
Zahyneme voba,
Jenorn nas palate
Do jednoho hroba.
Just put us
in o
ne grave.
Do jedneho hroba,
Do jedne trohlice,
Bodo vo nks plaltat
Bestrrzke deyciee
In one grave,
In one coffin,
The girls from Bystrc
will weep for us.
Fauré’s song cycle Poéme d ‘un jour (poem of a day) is a fine example of
melodic. The narrator, a poet himself, ventures from flirtatious playfulness in
Rencontre, to anger over his lover’s rejection of him in Toujours, and, most
interestingly, to an optimistic indifferent departure in Adieu.
Rencontre
J’etais triste et pensif quand je t’ai
rencontrée,
Je sens moins aujourd’hui mon obstine
tourment;
O dismoi, seraistu la femme iriaeperee,
Et le réve ideal pouisuivi vainement’!
0,passanta qudouxyeiogseriis—tudonc
I’amie
Qui reiulrait le bonheur au poete isolé,
Eles—mnyonnasnnsonanuafiamie,
Comme Ie ciel natal sur un eoeur d’eltilé”
Ta tristesse sauvage, a la mienne pareille,
Aime a voir Ie soleil décliner sur la mer!
Devant I’immensité ton extase s’eveille,
Etleclunnedassoiisktabelleirruest
chm
Une mysterieuse et douce sympathie
Déja m’enchaine a toi comme un vivant lien,
E t mon ame frémit, par l’amour envahie
Et mon coeur te cherit saris te connaitre
bien!
Toujaurs
Vous me demandez de ma taire,
lwissadandpensivewhenlmelyou,
1 sense less today my persistent torment;
Tellme,waeyouthegirl Imetbyehanoe,
the ideal dream I have vainly sought.”
A passerby with gentle eyes, were you the
friend
who brought happiness to a lonely poet?
Did you shine upon my vacant bean
like the native sky on an exiled spirit?
Your shy sadness, so like my own,
la vatowatchthesinsaovett l usa!
Your delight is awakened before its
immensity,
and the evenings spent with your lovely soul
are dear to me.
A mysterious and gentle sympathy
already binds me to you like a living bond,
My soul trembles with overpowering love,
And my heart cherishes you, knowing you
hardly at all
De fuir loin de vous pourjamais,
Dedassechersasvamsflots,
El,quandlavaitssoraaidana\ce,
Et se depouille de sa flamme
Comme Ie printemps dc ses fleurs!
Adieu
Comme tout meurt vita, la rose
Declose.
Et les frais manteaux diapres
Des PMS;
Les longs soupirs, les bienaimeea,
Fumées!
On voit dans ce monde lager
Changer.
Plus vite que les flots dea gréves,
Nos raves,
Plus vite que Ie givre en fleurs,
Nos coeurs!
A vous l’on se croyait fiddle,
Cruelle,
Mais helas! les plus longs amours
Son! courts!
Eije dis en quittan! vos oharrnea,
Sans Iarmes,
Presqu’au moment da mon aveu,
Adieu!
to flee from you forever to a distant place,
ort l’udaytorid itselfof’its brightness!
Asktheiinmenseooean
todryupiuvastwatets,
Butdanothopethatmysoul
anddouseitsflame
asthesmingtimeoansheditsflowas!
Like everything that dies quickly,
the blown rose,
h
te fresh multicolored flowers
on the meadows.
Long sighs, those we love,
gone like smoke.
One sees in this frivolous world,
Change.
Quicker than the waves on the beach,
Our dreams.
Quicker than frost on the flowers,
Our hearts.
One believes oneself faithful to you,
Cruel,
But alas! the longest of love affairs
Are short!
And I say on quitting your charms,
Without tears,
Close to the moment ofrn y avowal,
Adieu!
�Though he did venture into other branches, Roger Quilter is chiefly remembered
for his contribution to art song. Quilter didn‘t participate in the early 20”
century music evolution, and instead composed music with rich harmonies,
filled with the sound of romantic wistfulness, and lust for past memories. He
adopted work from the 17” century poet Robert Herrick to create To Julia, a six
part song cycle for tenor and piano, which debuted in 1905 .
I. The Bracelet
IV. The night piece
Julia, this my silken twist;
For what other reason is ‘t,
The shooting stars attend thee,
And the elves also,
Wh y I tie a bout thy wrist,
But to show thee how, in part,
Thou my pretty captive art?
But thy bondslave is my heart,
‘1’is but silk that bindeth thee,
Knap the thread and thou art free:
But ‘tis otherwise with me,
I am bound, and fast bound, so
That from thee I cannot go,
I f could, I would not so.
11. The maiden ‘s blush
Like the sparks of fi re, befriend thee.
So look the mornings when the sun
Paints them with fresh vermillion.
So cherries blush, and Kethem pears,
And apricocks in youthful years;
So corrals look more lovely red,
And rubies lately polished
So purest diaper doth shine,
Stain’d by the beams of claret wine.
As Julia looks when she doth dress
Her either cheek with bashfulness.
IIL To daisies
Shut not so soon, the dulley’d night
Has not as yet begun
To make a seizure on the light,
Or to seal up the sun
No marigolds yet closed are,
No shadows great appear;
Nor doth the early shepherd‘s star
Shine like a spanglc here.
Stay but till my Julia close
Her lifebegetting eye,
And let the whole world then dispose
ltsel fto live or die.
Her eyes the glowworm lend thee,
Whose little eyes glow
Like the sparks of fire, befriend thee.
No Willo’th’Wisp mislight thee,
Nor snake or slowworm bite thee;
But on, on thy way,
Not making a stay,
Since ghost there’s none to affright thee
Let not the dark thee cumber:
What though the moon does slumber?
The stars of the night
Will lend thee their light
Like tapers clear without number.
Then, Julia, let me woo thee,
Thus, thus to come unto me ;
And when I shall meet
Thy silv ’ry feet
My soul l ‘ ll pour into thee
V . Julia ’s hair
Dew sat on Julia’s hair
And spangled too,
Like leaves that laden are
With trembling dew:
Or glitter’d to my sight,
As when the beams
Have their reflected light
Danc’d by the streams.
VI. Cherry ripe
Cherryripe, ripe, ripe, I cry,
Full and fair ones; come and buy
lfso be you ask me where
They do grow, I answer there,
Where my Julia’s lips do smile ;
There’s the land, or cherryisle,
Whose plantations fully show
All the year where cherries grow
flfiout the Performers:
fDam’dIfieBng, tenor
Dan Ibeling is from Roselle, Illinois, and is currently pursuing his Masters of
Opera degree with Binghamton University under the direction of Profs. Skrabalak
and Sicilian, and is also a member of the TriCities Opera Resident Artist
Training Program. Over the last two seasons, he has appeared as Borsa in
Rigoletto, Kaspar in Amahl and the Night Visitors, Don Curzio in Le nozze di
Figaro, and Spoleha in Tosca. Upcoming performances include the title role in
Honegger‘s King David with the Binghamton University Chorus and Orchestra,
and Gherardo in Gianni Schicchi at TCO. Dan has also been an apprentice with
the Des Metro Opera, and spent a summer in Graz, Austria studying at the
American Institute of Musical Studies. Dan received his B.A. in Music from the
University of Nevada, Las Vegas.
Amanda Chmela, soprano
Originally from Lindenhurst, New York, Ms Chmela is currently pursuing a
Master‘s in Opera Performance under the direction of Mary Burgess. She is also
a member of the TriCities Opera Resident Artist Training Program. Roles with
TriCities include Gretel (Hansel and Gretel), Barbarina (Le Nozze di Figaro), Ms.
Pinkerton (The Old Maid and the Thief), Page (Amahl and the Night Visitors), and
Page (Rigoletto). Upcoming performances include the role of Ciesca (Gianni
Schicchi), and as the soprano soloist in Honegger’s King David with the
Binghamton University Chorus and Orchestra. During the summer of 2009, she
performed with the CRS Barn Studio as Edith (Pirates of Penzance) and with the
Summer Savoyards as Josephine (H.M.S. Pinafore).
Ms. Chmela received her undergraduate degree in Musical Theatre from SUNY
Fredonia where she studied under Julie Newell. She performed the roles of Ann
(A Little Night Music), the Sandman (Hansel and Gretel), and Mrs. Cratchit (A
Christmas Carol), in addition to several scenes programs, a commencement eve
concert, and performance trips to both Italy (2008) and Japan (2006).
Margaret Rfitz, pianist
Ms. Reitz is a native of [he Binghamton Area. She received her Bachelor and
Master of Music degrees in piano performance with accompanying emphasis.
She attended Boston University, New England Conservatory and Binghamton
University. She has studied piano with Jean Casadesus, Victor Rosenbaum,
Seymour Fink and Walter Ponce and accompanying with Allen Rogers. She has
accompanied throughout the United Slates, in England, South America, Spain
and al the American Institute of Musical Studies in Gra z, Austria. She was a
winner of the Artistic Ambassadors Program by the United States Information
Agency in partnership with the John F. Kennedy Center for the performing arts.
She was an official accompanist for the MTNA State and Eastern Division
Competition held at Ithaca College. She has been a guest chamber music artist
in Morges, Switzerland. She also was selected to attend the Accompanying
Workshop for Singers and Pianisls held at Northwsslem University with Chicago
Lyric Opera Faculty and Coaches. She was recently invited to the International
Clarinet Conference to play a recital in Tokyo, Japan. She was a guest artist on
the Cornell Summer Series. She was an official pianist at the International
�Double Reed Competition and Convention in 2007 at Ithaca College and was
invited to play the 2009 Convention in Birmingham, England with the Glickman
Ensemble. She was selected to accompanying at the Interpretation of Spanish
Music in conjunction with University of Madrid in Grenada, Spain coached by
Teresa Berganza and at Mannes School of Music summer 2008. She was a
Guest Artist playing two concerts in Granada, Spain this past summer and
accompanied the Barcelona Song Festival in July. She is the pianist for Theater
Street Productions performing concerts in Lenox, Mass and Newport Rhode
Island this fall.
She is currently on the faculty at Binghamton University since 1991 and Ithaca
College School of Music since 1999. She is on the Executive Board of the New
York District MTNA organization. She is President of the local District VII Music
Teachers Association and is an active adjudicator for the National Piano Guild
Organi zation.
T riCities O pera 20092010 Season
(sy
d o n i z e l l i
e
R
ev
FRIEDHElM MEMORIAL
Lecture/Recital
H U M A N N
ROBE/2 T SC
MOBIUS ENSEMBLE
Janey Choi, Violin
Roberta Crawford, Viola
Michael Salmirs, Piano
Stephen Stalker, Cello
o p r i l 3 0 8 m a y 2 , 2 0 1 0
Thursday, March 4, 2010
8:00 p. m.
Casadesus Recital Hall
�Binghamton University Music Department ’s
U P C O M I N G E V E N75
s e s a m e m a c a w
Thursday, March 4°” MidDa y Concert, 1.20 PM FREE
Casadesus Recital Hall
Th ursda y, M a r ch 4 ” Friedheim Memorial Lecture/Recital Series:
Schumann (Mobius), 8:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, $$
(FREE for students, 100 maximum tickets)
Satur da y, M ar ch 6% University Symphony Orchestra: Concerto &
Ana Concert, 8:00 PM, Osterhout Concert Theater, $$ (FREE for
students)
Sunday, March 7 ” wind Symphony, 3:00 PM FREE
Anderson Center Chamber Hall
1”' MidDay Concert, 1 :20 PM FREE
Thursday, M ar ch 1
Casadesus Recital Hall
4 ” Ewa Mackiewicz Wolfe: 1810 – 2010, A Chopin
Su n da y, M a r ch 1
Celebration, 3:00 PM, Anderson Center Chamber Hall, $$
8 ” MidDay Concert, 1 :20 PM FREE
Thursday, M ar ch 1
Casadesus Recital Hall
8 ” Harpur Chorale and Women s’ Chorus,
Th ursda y, M a r ch 1
8:00 PM, Anderson Center Chamber Hall, FREE
Sa t u r da y, M a r ch 20° " Senior Honors Recital: Briana Sakamoto,
soprano, 8:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Su n da y, M a r ch 21"t Senior Honors Recital: Marc Silvagni, percussion,
3:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Thursday, M ar ch 25‘h MidDay Concert, 1 :20 PM FREE
Casadesus Recital Hall
For ticket information, please call the
Anderson Center Box O ff i ce a t 777ARTS
To see all events, please visit music. b inghamton. e du
Become a fan on Facebook by visiting
Binghamton University Music Department
�
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1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
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Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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1 audio disc
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17:42
Streaming Audio
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE154590">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE154590</a>https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE154590
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Daniel Ibeling, tenor, master's recital, February 27, 2010
Recital Tape 2010-2-27
Description
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Works By Handel, Brahms, Dvorak, Faure, Quilter. Held at 8:00 p.m., February 27, 2010, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Creator
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Ibeling, Daniel
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-02-27
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Type
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sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/43d6dc9f440acc5d028d2d276035812c.jpg
2670b998c95e460221958c1a586fef35
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6b4e839e55d34c75684f9609150751df.mp3
38b4ee5e931a29f987bfcba13a68e830
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-03-02
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sam Brown, 1943-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Sam Brown is a politician and political activist. Brown was the head of ACTION under President Jimmy Carter, and ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. He has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Redlands, and a Master's degree from Rutgers University. He also completed his graduate studies at Harvard University Divinity School."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Sam Brown is a politician and political activist. Brown was the head of ACTION under President Jimmy Carter and ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. He has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Redlands and a Master's degree from Rutgers University. He also completed his graduate studies at Harvard University Divinity School.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"The Army-McCarthy hearing; Generational Gap; National Student Association; C.I.A.; Communist Propaganda; Young Americans for Freedom; Leadership; Non-violence; Lafayette Square; Kent State; Student for a Democratic Society; Black Panthers; Peace Corps."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">The Army-McCarthy hearing; Generational Gap; National Student Association; C.I.A.; Communist Propaganda; Young Americans for Freedom; Leadership; Non-violence; Lafayette Square; Kent State; Student for a Democratic Society; Black Panthers; Peace Corps</span>
Duration
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119:03
Subject LCSH
Politicians--United States--20th century; Political activists--United States; Brown, Sam, 1943--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Sam Brown
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 2 March 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:04:39):
Testing, one, two. This will carry very well. Done pretty good. I noticed something when I was reading your background. It was a quote. And I would like you to explain it a little further. "It never occurred to me that America could be wrong." You are quoted as saying that when you were younger.
SB (00:05:01):
Well, I grew up in Council Bluffs, Iowa in an egalitarian, Republican, religious family. And part of the religion of America is that America's always right. We are the good guys, we saved Europe from itself twice. We ... You know. So as a young man, I thought that almost quasi-religious sense of America's role and mission. And it never occurred to me until, oh probably like a lot of other people I guess, probably about freshman year in college, that maybe all that history that I thought I knew, I did not know as well as I thought I knew it. And that there was another side to America that was ... That we were, in fact, just human. I should have thought ... I should have known that actually from just religious teachings. I mean if we were all fallen, then how would we create a perfect state?
SM (00:06:18):
Right.
SB (00:06:19):
So ... But in any case, you know I was a kid. I believed that that is where a simple vision of America, always right, always on the side of the underdog.
SM (00:06:38):
You think this was ... Because I think a lot of Boomers ... A lot of people do not like the term Boomer so I am going to say those born after 19, about (19)46 and beyond. Certainly, the first 10 years, the frontline Boomers, who lived in the (19)50s and experienced everything from the get-go. I think a lot of Boomers had that feeling, what you are talking about because the parents were home, they had defeated two of the really worst dictatorships in the world. And things looked pretty good at home despite the Cold War and McCarthy telling people they were Communists. And-
SB (00:07:17):
Well, and there was an enormous growth in the economy. There was all this surge in education. People who had never thought they would get a college education, knew that their kids would. I was born in (19)43 so I was very much in that ... One of my very earliest memories actually is the Army-McCarthy hearings in, which would have been I guess, (19)50, (19)51.
SM (00:07:47):
(19)51, yeah.
SB (00:07:48):
Yeah. I remember coming home from school for lunch and seeing it on our-
SM (00:07:52):
Black and white-
SB (00:07:53):
... black and white television set, yeah.
SM (00:07:56):
It is amazing. See, I had a little boy. I was born at the end of 1946 and I can remember before going to the school ... Actually, I am a first-grader or kindergarten. But we had half days in kindergarten. I remember being home and being on the floor and hearing this man yell. He did not ... I did not like him. I did not like that. Did you have a generation gap with your parents?
SB (00:08:24):
Well, sure. I mean they really were on that World War I ... I mean, my parents were both born at the end of World War I and so their formative years were the depression and World War II. And America's enormous achievements during those years were really quite remarkable. And so, they saw in a different ... They saw the world through different eyes than somebody born in the grow and prosperity and opportunity that we were born into. So, in that sense, I did not always get along with my parents. I mean we had political differences that drove us apart for a number of years. But we were never apart as parent and child. We grew apart politically. Some things were just off the table, and I thought they were old fogies.
SM (00:09:26):
Yeah. You were a Republican when you were young. What changed you? Was there a specific event that changed you to become a Democrat?
SB (00:09:34):
Well, what changed me was not Republican to Democrat so much as the Civil Rights Movement. Remember this was the days when there was actually a reasonable Republican Party. And it was the era of Rockefeller. And the idea that the Republican Party could actually, particularly on civil rights early on, there were probably more Republicans willing to vote for bills than there were Democrats because the demographic of the Senate being so Southern, the Democrats being so Southern. So, I mean what changed me was not anything in the parties. It was that it was seeing a little more of the world and what actually happened in that world. Seeing, particularly, foreign workers in California. I was involved very early on with some efforts to ... In the unionization efforts of-
SM (00:10:39):
[inaudible].
SB (00:10:41):
... all of the farm workers. Not at any leadership. Just-
SM (00:10:43):
Right.
SB (00:10:44):
But you know, helping out, setting up tables, volunteering for things, that sort of stuff. In fact, that is what I was doing the day that Kennedy was ... John Kennedy was shot.
SM (00:10:58):
Mm-hmm.
SB (00:10:59):
And you saw that the world was not all this ... The same as this sort of white, red world in which I had grown up in Council Bluffs. And even Council Bluffs probably was not that way if I had had my eyes open all the time. But I had grown up in a middle class, relatively privileged family. And then you see what is happening to other people and you say, "Well, wait a minute. This is not working very well." And so that, I think, that and the Civil Rights Movement probably, were the things that eventually ...
SM (00:11:38):
When you were young, were you ... I know you were involved in a college but were you an involved student in high school? Did you just study and did well in classes and when was that first point where you said to yourself, "I want to make a difference in this world? I think I have it within me to"-
SB (00:11:56):
Freshman year in college, probably. High school, high school was high school in the late (19)50s. I was a whole lot more interested in cars and girls than I was in politics. And freshman year in college, Allard Lowenstein came to the campus. He was at Stanford then. He was Dean of Men at Stanford and came to give a speech. And he had just come back from Southwest Africa. And a small group of us, for one reason or another, met with him and got to talking to him. And it was really Allard who gave me the sense [inaudible]. You focus your attention and make an effort, you actually can make a difference in the world. So really, freshman year in college was very important for me. Very important for me. I mean, by the end of that year, I was just on campus stuff. The administration shut down the student newspaper because of an article that ... Either because of an article I had written in the paper or an article. I mean it was never quite clear but they were very angry, in any case. And so, we started an alternative newspaper and I mean ... So, by the end of my freshman year, I was pretty much involved. Then, only on campus and helping out.
SM (00:13:42):
That is interesting you had that experience. I saw that reference someplace in some of the information on you. And if you look later on in your life, in your young life, there's that time when you were with the National Student Association. And then as you got a more important role within that organization, you saw that the CIA had admitted to infiltrating. The organization of the International Scholars Program over in Europe, I guess. And that really upset you.
SB (00:14:16):
Yeah, I would not say infiltrating it, so much as that was the CIA had been funding a number of cultural institutions, the Congress for Cultural Freedom and other things in Encounter Magazine. And the National Student Association had turned out from sometime in the early 50s. And it really undermined the claim that we made because there were two sort of competing organizations of students. And the CIA knew what I believed to be true. That in developing countries particularly, the student leaders of today are likely to be the leaders of tomorrow because the very narrow elite. So, the student leaders tend to move into positions of authority. And certainly, the Russians and the Soviets knew that. And they were funding then an organization imported in Prague that was ... Pretended to be an organization of students who was really an organization of part of the Communist Propaganda Apparatus, basically. And the United States started funding an alternative organization of which the NSA was a leading player. And the agency was very smart. They knew that if ... That they probably could not fund it openly because of Congress. Because most of the people who were involved were people of moderate left persuasion because we were going to talk to European and African, Asian students. You could not go there. The right wing did not have much to talk to them about. So, from sometime in the early (19)50s until 1967, they had funded a variety, mostly of international activities for students, without telling many of the people that that is where the money was coming from. It theoretically came from a foundation in Upstate New York, Corning. That is the old Corning Glass money. So, the whole time we were pedaling along, we were saying, "Oh well, they are the bad guy, Communist Propaganda Apparatus. We are just the blossom of America's youth out to ... Because of ..." And many people did not know. I mean Gloria Steinem was on one of the first delegations to go. And there were a number of other people. I mean I have met other people through the years who were on that delegation of which Gloria was probably the most famous. But they did not know that it was CIA money. And it really was ... It just made a lie out of the whole thing because of it. I understand why it happened. I understand how it happened. But I disapproved then, I disapprove now. If it had been done directly through the State Department ... Maybe it could not have been done because of McCarthy and McCarthy [inaudible].
SM (00:17:54):
Yeah.
SB (00:17:55):
But if it had been done straight through the State Department, you just said, "Yeah, we got a grant from the State Department to go to this trip." Well, okay, that is fine. I mean nobody would have had any problem with that.
SM (00:18:06):
Upon reflection, after all of your experiences even beyond when you were in college and certainly the years you were organizing the Moratorium and the Anti-War Movement, it did not surprise you then that the CIA or the infiltrating organizations to-
SB (00:18:28):
It did surprise me.
SM (00:18:29):
Even during the (19)60s and the-
SB (00:18:32):
Yeah, it did surprise me. That was a great shock to me. It was a great shock to me. But it is now 40 years later. I can reflect back on it and say, "Well, it was this and that, I disapprove of it still." But I was shocked at the time. I mean I was in graduate school and was Chairman of the Board of NSA at the time and I had no idea. And then this allegation was made. There was a discussion at a board meeting about the allegation and everybody said, "No, it is not true. It is not true. It is not true. It is not true. It is not true. It is this crazy left rhetoric." And then three days later, I got the call saying, "Well, it was true." So the people that I had known for many years who were aware of it had been lying to me the whole time. So ...
SM (00:19:22):
Wow.
SB (00:19:23):
And they were sort of suborned into it. They signed an oath and they were, I think, basically threatened that they had to keep their mouths shut about it. I do not find that easy to forgive either. But ... You know, you get older, you understand.
SM (00:19:53):
There has been so many events in your life, so many experiences that really had an impact on you. But can you pinpoint one event, whether it was something you were involved in or something beyond you where you had no control, that really had the greatest impact on you as a human being? We are talking it could be a tragedy, a ...
SB (00:20:20):
Oh. I mean probably the event that changed me the most was that first meeting with Al Lowenstein because it really changed the direction of my life. Beyond that, I mean I had things that were weird. I started to say, I was on a Thursday night. I was studying and slogging my way through a manuscript in German. And Sunday morning, I was on Meet the Press. I mean that is a fairly rapid change of venue. And that was the CIA stuff. And I came ... I got on the plane right away and I was in Boston at the time. I came down here and held a couple of days of hearings and then went on Meet the Press with Joe Clark and I cannot remember who. There were a couple of other people on that program. Anyway, that had an enormous impact. But so did the early successes of the McCarthy Campaign changed what I could do subsequently because I got known and got known among other things among contributor circles so that when it came time for the Moratorium, I knew where to raise the money. So, it was ... Anyway.
SM (00:21:54):
You were involved in a lot of anti-war activities way before the Moratorium.
SB (00:21:59):
Yes.
SM (00:22:00):
In college years and-
SB (00:22:01):
Yes.
SM (00:22:01):
And I remember reading the Vietnam ... I think it was Vietnam Summer which was the (19)67.
SB (00:22:08):
Yeah.
SM (00:22:09):
Explain what that is because people are going to be reading this now, most of them are not going to have a whole lot of knowledge of that particular period, some of the specifics. Well, the Vietnam Summer.
SB (00:22:22):
The Vietnam Summer was an effort, as you say, in 1967, to get some of the people who had been organizing on their college campuses to actually go do it more broadly on a community-based level. And the theory was that you get however many people you could get to spend their summer talking to friends and neighbors and trying to find beyond the campus or beyond their campus at least, a way to talk to people about the war. It was really, as I recall it, sort of a successor to the teach-in movement from before that. That was broader. It was an effort, it was a broad educational effort, an outreach effort, that was before everything went to hell.
SM (00:23:14):
Yeah. I remember reading that there were 500 paid staffers and 26,000 volunteers in that anti-Vietnam project all over the country.
SB (00:23:24):
Yeah, that sounds a little inflated, frankly. I mean-
SM (00:23:28):
Yeah.
SB (00:23:28):
... 500 paid staffers. Not likely.
SM (00:23:31):
That might be misinformation [inaudible]-
SB (00:23:33):
Yeah. Somebody's inflated notion about how good it was. I mean it was-
SM (00:23:38):
But those experiences, did they help you in prepping you for McCarthy and being involved in the McCarthy-
SB (00:23:44):
Oh sure.
SM (00:23:44):
... experience?
SB (00:23:44):
Sure.
SM (00:23:45):
And how did you ever get that position? Because my golly, people would die to get a position like that at such a young age.
SB (00:23:52):
Hawk, with David Hawkins, another ... I mean we worked on a bunch of different things. We worked on a series of letters from student body presidents and student newspaper editors that we published in the New York Times because the administration, the Johnson Administration, was trying to say, "Well, it' is just a radical, crazy, lefty fringe that is against the war." And we wanted to say, "No, no, no. This is a mainstream, student leader, student’s newspaper editor. This is not your ... You cannot dismiss this as just a bunch of crazies." And through that, and through NSA itself, I probably knew people on ... I do not know, 3, 400 college campuses around the country. And that was in the days when it was not so easy because without email ... I mean now you can be in touch with 400 people with the touch of a button. Then, you either had to pick up the telephone and call them or you had to send them a letter. I mean there was no real, easy way to communicate. You could do a fax, but it is the same thing. You could not ... We did not have mass blast faxes at the time. So, it was just sort of ... And a lot of students would not have access to a fax machine anyway. The newspaper editors would and probably the student body presidents, too. But in any case, it was a lot of hard work. So, we spent months making phone calls and pulling together those ads. And through NSA, which had a big gathering every summer, you would get together with people from 3 or 400 different campuses. Well that is a big benefit when you are trying to organize something to actually know people face-to-face.
SM (00:25:56):
See one of the things that I do not think is talked about enough in the literature on the (19)60s is the National Student Association. I think it was formed in the late (19)40s or something like that. Hubert Humphrey was somewhat connected or-
SB (00:26:09):
Yeah.
SM (00:26:09):
... at the very beginning. Why has that organization ... Obviously, it still exists. But why is that organization not being pushed to the forefront when we are talking about the Anti-War Movement and all the groups. I do not ever hear the NSA discuss or even the Young Americans for Freedom which was a Conservative group. You hear about SDS. You hear about Vets Against the War, those kinds of groups.
SB (00:26:34):
It is all ... NSA also had this broad educational function and education reform function. It was not a single representative it had. And it was composed of a broad range of people. I mean I remember Danny Boggs from the Harvard delegation, every year wrapping the ... Using very clever parliamentary tactics to delay activity. I mean it was a broad-based organization and it represented a lot of different people. I knew a lot of the leadership of Young Americans for Freedom because they were also at NSA. So unlike SDS which had a conscious ideology, NSA was less ideological and certainly more modest in its moderating, I would say. Because it was broadly based. And the membership of it was student governments, not individuals. So, if the student government was headed by somebody conservative, then you get to the convention in the summer and it'd be very hard to get certain things done because you would have a resistance. Now eventually, by the summer of (19)64 as I recall, I think we got a resolution passed supporting Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party that year. And lots of people who then became well-known were there at the time. And that includes everybody from Tom Hayden and some of the people, more ideological people, to people like Rodger Reaper who was the editor of the student newspaper at Illinois or ... I do not know. There's a whole bunch of people that we knew. Rik Hertzberg is now at the New Yorker and then the editor of the Crimson and ... There are probably 50 of those people that I could Google and they'd come up with a long list of stuff.
SM (00:28:54):
Yeah. It is interesting that I am trying to interview him as well because he's a friend of Charles Kaiser, the writer. So, I just sent an email to him to see if I can interview him.
SB (00:29:06):
Tom? Oh, Rik Hertzberg, Henrik Hertzberg?
SM (00:29:11):
Yeah.
SB (00:29:11):
Yeah.
SM (00:29:11):
Yep.
SB (00:29:11):
Yeah.
SM (00:29:12):
So, I am hoping ... And I did not use a speech writer for Jimmy Carter and ... One of the things-
SB (00:29:20):
We spent the summer together, Rik and I, in the summer of 19 ... Must have been (19)65, I guess. At what later turned out to be CI Summer Camp. And then he went on to work for the US Student Press Association for a year.
SM (00:29:37):
The links between McCarthy, you were a very important person in that position because when you think of Chicago (19)68, that is something that comes to everybody's mind, the-
SB (00:29:50):
Actually-
SM (00:29:51):
Go ahead.
SB (00:29:53):
[inaudible]. I have just realized that I sort of filibustered the answer to your question about how I got there. I did not intend to, but I started a ways back.
SM (00:30:02):
Right.
SB (00:30:03):
So, the-
SB (00:30:03):
It started a ways back.
SM (00:30:03):
Right.
SB (00:30:03):
So, the end of all of that story is that when it came time for them... Oh, and then there was one other big piece in there, which was the summer of 1967. There was a huge fight at NSA about who was going to be president of NSA for the succeeding year. And I lost by a few votes to a guy, the name of Ed Schwartz, who lives in Philadelphia now, and Ed was really the education reform. He said that is what we should be doing. And I was the candidate of anti-war that said what we should do is that an NSA should essentially devote its resources to ending the war in Vietnam. I did not, of course, know at the time that it was... No, maybe I did. Because by that time, the CIA funding had ended that spring. That was when it blew up. Anyway, I said, what it should be doing was anti-war stuff, and I lost. But we then went on to form an organization called the Alternative Candidate Task Force, which was to be the student effort to find the new candidate, an alternative to Johnson. And I became the head of that. So, in the fall the campaign, when we found the candidate, I had already been working for months on the process of finding that candidate. I knew the people who were involved in campuses all over the country. Allard Lowenstein was the kind of Pied Piper. He would go out and give the speeches, and then Curtis Gans would do the follow-up and actually make an organization out of Allard's enthusiasm. Harold Ickes was working in New York at the time, and I was traveling around to campuses. I was doing the campus side of that. I ran the campaign to the college Young Democrats to elect the slate of officers that was against the war and then looking for an alternative candidate. And we won that to the great chagrin of the White House. And anyway, long story short is I would spent years doing this stuff. So, when it came time for the campaign to do something, there was my smiling face.
SM (00:32:37):
What amazes is, well, it is obvious. It comes out over and over again. Organizer, organizer, organizer. That is such a skill. Because I know, I have been working with students for 30 some years, and most of them do not know the first thing about how to organize. They have a lot of friends and they can get their friends to come to things, and they go to all these student organization lectures and conferences, but they still do not know. And so, I think it is something that we need to do a better job of, especially with college students today. That is just my personal opinion. Because the question I am tired of hearing about over and over again is, I do not know what to do. And I believe in young people. So, it is just that they need to have confidence that they can do it. But one of the things here is 1968 was such an unbelievable event. You were in Chicago?
SB (00:33:32):
Yeah.
SM (00:33:33):
What was it like being there? Tom Gorman, I interviewed too, and he told me the experience he had with Senator McCarthy in Chicago in (19)68. But explain what it was like to be there. Secondly, to be the link between Senator McCarthy and the protestors.
SB (00:33:57):
Yeah. Well, most of them were friends of mine. I mean, Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis particularly. But I knew a lot of the other people around too. Carl Oglesby was there. They were people I knew from the years past. So, it was a natural thing that I should be asked really on behalf of the campaign to go meet with them, talk to them, try and figure out if there was a way to minimize the damage on the campaign by their actions. We had no idea, of course, that the police would turn out, that there would be a riot, a police riot as the Ryan Commission later said. We could not predict that. What we could try to do was to help the demonstrations be peaceful, well-organized, not destroy any chance of getting a resolution through the convention opposing the war. It turned out we probably did not have a chance to get that anyway. It was a kind of symbolic effort to get a peace plank in the platform, which we lost. But anyway, my job was to try to minimize the damage, which was all really, I mean, there was no way it was going to be helpful. So how do you minimize the damage is really the question. And it was natural that I should be the person asked to do that. And I spent some time with them over the summer and then early on at the convention, and then did not spend much time actually with them during the convention itself. But I was outside the Hilton Hotel when the police attacked, I was actually sitting in the street with Carl Oglesby and he said, "Well, the police are going to attack." I said, "Carl, come on. The whole damn world is watching. There is television cameras up on the ledge of the Hilton Hotel. They are not going to do anything stupid." Well, how wrong was I?
SM (00:36:26):
Oh my gosh.
SB (00:36:27):
Two minutes later. Tear gas every place and we were trying to get out of Dodge.
SM (00:36:35):
Yeah, just to be there. I saw it on TV.
SB (00:36:41):
It scared the bejesus out of you, I will tell you. Because you get in a crowd like that, the crowd is as dangerous. Just the panic.
SM (00:36:52):
Who was at fault? I have read many books on this. Were the young people at fault or were the police at fault?
SB (00:37:02):
I think there is no question it was the police. I mean, they just lost it. And they lost it, I mean, I understand most of the people in the street were kids of privilege. They were college students. They were college graduates. They were people who could afford to come, who were not working the second week in August, could afford to be in Chicago. And the cops did not have any of that privilege. Probably not mostly college educated. Their jobs to maintain order. They are pissed off because these are raggedy-looking, yada-yada, yada. I mean, in some ways they were attacking their own kids or their own family, I think part of it, or whatever. I mean, nobody will ever be able to fully explain the psychology of it. But there is no question that they lost it. I mean just completely lost it. Nothing would have happened. Maybe a few windows would have gotten broken, but I am not even sure of that.
SM (00:38:07):
Well, there was disruption within inside the convention too. And of course, when Ribicoff spoke, they were swearing at him up there.
SB (00:38:14):
Yeah.
SM (00:38:16):
Senator Ribicoff. So, it was happening within it, because we all know what happened to Dan Rather. They roughed him up. So, a lot of things were happening.
SB (00:38:23):
Well, and Daley was the lead. He is the guy standing up saying fuck you. What do you think the police think?
SM (00:38:30):
What was Senator McCarthy thinking though?
SB (00:38:32):
I have no idea.
SM (00:38:33):
He was seeing this too. Two things come out of this. I guess you were a witness, too, at the Chicago Seven trial?
SB (00:38:41):
I was.
SM (00:38:41):
And of course, there were eight of them. Then of course Bobby, they took him away. But what was it like to be asked to be in that room? Did you feel a lot of pressure? I mean, a lot of them were your friends, but you had to be objective.
SB (00:38:58):
Well, yeah, I had to say what I saw and knew, which is pretty much what I just said to you. That they did not have any, I mean, there was no plan on behalf of the leadership of those demonstrations to end up in the circumstances in which they ended up. I was there enough to know that nobody was passing out clubs or wearing helmets. None of the things that would make you think, whoa, wait a minute, what is going on here? Were there 10 rabblerousers, or 50? Maybe. I do not know. But there was no plan. I mean, Dave Dillinger was not planning some revolutionary action in the street. I mean, it was a stupid [inaudible].
SM (00:39:50):
They picked those eight people. I mean.
SB (00:39:53):
Who knows?
SM (00:39:54):
Some of them were well known. But a couple of them, Lee Weiner was not well-known.
SB (00:40:01):
No.
SM (00:40:01):
There is another one that is well known. He is a professor in California. But anyway, so being in that trial, in that room with Judge Julius Hoffman, you experienced him firsthand then.
SB (00:40:14):
Yeah. It was not exactly an objective courtroom. I mean, the atmosphere was very hostile in the room. But I did not have so much to say. They wanted me because they wanted me as a defense witness to say I had observed the preparations. I knew that there were no plans for riot. I was there that night. I was in the campaign. I certainly was not with the demonstrators. And just they did not do it.
SM (00:40:48):
Did the prosecuting attorneys try to make you feel like you...
SB (00:40:54):
Oh yeah.
SM (00:40:56):
William Kunstler and Leonard Weinglass were on the other side helping.
SB (00:41:00):
These are your friends. And of course, you are going to say what you say. No, I did not say it that way because they were my friends. I said it that way because that is the way it happened in short. But it was very brief as I recall. They wanted to get that piece on the record, and I got that piece on the record.
SM (00:41:22):
Yeah, I have read so much about it, and I have read so many different opinions and thoughts of it. And now quite a few of them have, well, several of them have passed on. Abbie and Jerry and have passed on, and Dave Delinger too.
SB (00:41:41):
Yeah. Well, Abbie and Jerry were always wild cards. I mean, I did not know them so well, unlike Tom and Rennie, Dave.
SM (00:41:50):
I interviewed Rennie. Rennie is smart as the dickens.
SB (00:41:55):
Yeah, he is.
SM (00:41:56):
But he does not like to talk about it anymore. He into a different sphere. Spirituality, that is his life now. And actually, his girlfriend, the person that was with him, it is the first time I have heard any of this. He does not even to talk about it anymore.
SB (00:42:07):
Is he living in Colorado?
SM (00:42:08):
He lives in Colorado. I guess he has done real well. Goes all over the country in a big expensive Winnebago with his, I am not sure if it is his girlfriend or his partner or whatever the story is. But she is also very well-educated and they talk about spirituality together. So, she is well-known too. But he is an unbelievable person. He gave me two hours of his time in a restaurant when he was in DC that is way beyond the call of duty, because he had to give two speeches that night. So, he was great. And I have interviewed David Harris, and I have interviewed a lot of good people.
SB (00:42:48):
Dave was a very good guy.
SM (00:42:49):
Dave was a great guy.
SB (00:42:52):
Yeah.
SM (00:42:52):
One of the things that really struck me when I interviewed Senator McCarthy. He did not really say anything to me. I asked Tom Gorman, I have asked other people, David Hawk, I asked people who worked on his campaign, what happened to him after Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. Because you would have thought, with Humphrey and the other guy, you would have thought. He was sad, obviously, and he had his differences. But it's my understanding that that really did affect him, the assassination, even though he did not like him that well. Why did not he go gung-ho, pick up the reins and try to be the Democratic nominee?
SB (00:43:36):
Well, at the time, we were all very angry at him.
SM (00:43:39):
Let me switch. Here we go. Okay.
SB (00:43:48):
So, McCarthy in the summer of 1968, I think we were all very disappointed. Quite angry, in fact. About that time, there was that Paul Simon song, "Where have you have gone, Joe DiMaggio? The nation Turns its lonely eyes to you."
SM (00:44:04):
Yeah.
SB (00:44:05):
Well, that was a kind of theme song around the office, because everybody was saying, where have you gone, Gene? I mean, what the hell's going on? Now, I do not know that we'd ever would have gotten a completely straight answer to that question. But I think it was not so much being devastated by it as it was that he was a realistic guy, and he knew he was not going to get the nomination. Or that his view was that there was nothing he could do that would get him the nomination, and therefore it was just creating false expectations and hopes to be out. Maybe he was devastated by it. Maybe he was. But what happened, of course, is a lot of Kennedy people did not come over to McCarthy, but in fact went to McGovern. And McCarthy regarded that as only one more sign of the duplicitous nature of Kennedy's supporters and whatever. And remember with him, it goes also way back to 1956 in the Democratic convention.
SM (00:45:24):
Oh, that is right. When John Kennedy was going to run for vice president, and he did not have to. Yes, he had no shot. Stevenson was going to win.
SB (00:45:36):
But McCarthy nominated Stevenson at that convention. And so, the animus there was very deep and in some way’s kind of inexplicable. I mean, his vote against Teddy for the leadership position two years later. I mean, it was crazy stuff.
SM (00:45:59):
Yeah, I remember Tom Gorman. You know Tom?
SB (00:46:03):
Yeah.
SM (00:46:04):
He said he was up with McCarthy looking over the protest in their room. They had a little balcony. And so, they went out on the balcony and they could smell the tear gas and all the things going on. And he thought Senator McCarthy would get very upset with what was going on. But then he said it was listening to a professor talking about philosophy or something like that, no emotion. And he said he quit on the spot. He quit because he did not see the emotion of young people being beaten in and all the things. And this is America and he is running for president.
SB (00:46:43):
And he is a hundred feet from it straight above.
SM (00:46:45):
Yeah, and that is amazing, knowing the man. I have met him three times. That is not the man that I talked to, but maybe he is different personalities, multiples at times. One of the things too, you said something that is very important, I think this is important. I mean, I am trying to interview Brian Lamb at C-SPAN, and I know his philosophy, and this is comparable to what you just said. This is a quote from you: The worst thing that can happen to an organizer is to become identified as a leader. And that is Brian Lamb at C-SPAN. We took students to see him. He said, there is no superstars at C-SPAN. If you want to be a superstar, go to ABC. He does not allow any superstars to see it at C-SPAN. And he is very sensitive when he was thrust to the front. And I know it was at a time when all young people were questioning leaders, did not trust any of the leaders, but is that very important, a little bit about who you are as a human being?
SB (00:47:50):
Yeah. I mean, partly it was, as you say, at the time, it was do not trust leaders, watch the parking meters. It was partly that. It was partly, too, that if you are trying to organize something, what you want is as broadly as possible for everyone to think they are a leader, for everyone to be a part of it. And if you are either self-proclaimed or proclaimed by others to be the leader, you lose people at that point. I mean, when you become visible in that way, people take shots at you, or think you are gotten too big for your britches, or you are this or you are that or the other thing. So, I mean, it is both a real sentiment about that it is better that it be broadly shared. And it is a tactical thing as well, that the more people you can drag in and make them feel good and important, the broader base of activity. Now, that is not always true, but I think it was true then. At that time, in that circumstance, I think that was true.
SM (00:49:21):
What is interesting is when you look at the Boomer generation of perception out there is it is a generation that does not trust, and for very obvious reasons, because so many of the leaders lied to them, whether it be Lyndon Johnson or the Gulf of Tonkin. We all know about Watergate. And even as they progressed into older age, or even older, you could say, Iran Contra with Ronald Reagan. Nobody trusted Gerald Ford.
SB (00:49:50):
When he pardoned Nixon.
SM (00:49:53):
Pardoned Nixon. Because there has got to be some sort of a deal there. Jimmy Carter at times was attacked for the amnesty for people up in Canada. And then of course, you can even go back to Eisenhower where the U2 incident relayed on public television, on TV. And I remember seeing that as a little boy, him talking about Gary Powers and saying that we are not spying, Ike-like.
SB (00:50:18):
No kidding.
SM (00:50:19):
On national television. And then of course, as you read later on, John Kennedy, and he was involved with the coup in Vietnam. I do not think Kennedy wanted him killed, but I think he was upset. But he gave the okay for the overthrow. So here we got leader after leader after leader, after leader, not trusting. And college students at that time did not trust anybody with responsibility, whether they be the president of the university, or a minister, or a rabbi. They did not trust anybody in leadership. And I think you hit something very important here. Do you feel that your feeling was really [inaudible] amongst many of the Boomers?
SB (00:51:03):
I do not know. I mean, I cannot speak for other people. I just know that it was a sentiment. My sense of the people with whom I worked was that you wanted to be very careful, that claiming leadership is likely to lose you the ability to actually be a leader.
SM (00:51:31):
Once you were designated a leader though, when you became the head of Action, when you became the head of these other organizations later in life, you were a leader. You were assigned, you were picked just like you were picked by McCarthy. You were the Clean for Gene, which I want you to talk about there, but you were picked to be the leader of this. So, you might feel that, but you are showing a lot of sensitivity here that you are more about collaboration than you are about...
SB (00:52:03):
Yeah. Even when I was at Action, we brought in a series of consultants to work on something that the Congress then later countered me around for called Workplace Democracy. I thought that it was important to bring people into the governance process. Not always into the policy making process because that is really the Congress and the President set direction and my job was to carry out that direction. But to set the tone of the workplace and the way to get it done, I thought the way to do that was to bring as many people as possible into it. So, we had this sort of ongoing thing, and we hired.
SM (00:53:03):
I know you hired Dick Celeste. I am a big Dick Celeste person.
SB (00:53:06):
Yeah. Well, but we hired this consultant to come to do workplace democracy. Anyway. Oh, yeah. I was very fortunate because the president gave me a lot of room to succeed or fail, and I was able to get Dick to come to the Peace Corps and John Lewis to come to run the domestic programs. And John Podesta to be my chief of staff. I mean, I had a good crowd. Betty Curry, then Betty Mitchell, but later, Betty Curry, the president's secretary, Clinton's secretary was my secretary for four years. So, for a little tiny agency, we had a lot of very high-quality people. Tom Glenn, who was later Under Secretary of Labor, worked there. I do not know. We had a good crowd.
SM (00:54:09):
Good people then. And then the Moratorium is something, when you look at your history, I think me personally, I think of the Moratorium and I think of Action, and certainly all your involvement as a great organizer. These things really stand out. I know I have read about the Moratorium, but how did it come about? Before we go there. Clean for Gene.
SB (00:54:36):
Oh, Clean for Gene.
SM (00:54:37):
Clean for Gene, and then we will go right to the Moratorium.
SB (00:54:39):
Okay.
SM (00:54:40):
Because those are big decisions, both by you.
SB (00:54:44):
Clean for Jean was, I mean, I think probably Mary McGrory probably invented the phrase, but the idea was a simple one. We are going to a place that is essentially New England, conservative, small-town America. We are trying to talk to people about voting for our candidate. You want them to listen as open-mindedly as possible to the argument and not be put off by appearance. Therefore, you need to appear in such a way that people, when they see you standing on the doorstep are inclined to open the door and talk to you or offer you a cup of coffee, rather than slamming the door in your face. So, if you are not sorted around, that is if you are not dressed properly, if your hair is too long, if you look like you are not going to be able to have that open conversation with people by and large older, a generation older in many cases, who had expectations that were framed in the forties, not in the (19)60s, then you need to appear appropriately. I mean the rules were pretty clear. If you are going to get on a bus to come to New Hampshire, do not bother if we cannot use you. Now, sometimes when people got there, if their appearance was not appropriate, then we put them to work in the basement of the headquarters filing, keeping track of file cards. But we did not put them out on the street unless we thought they had a chance to actually influence people in a positive way.
SM (00:56:44):
That is the New York Yankee way too. The Yankees have this thing about appearances, remember? Because Johnny Damon had the... And that is what Bobby Cox does for the Atlantic Braves. You got to look at your part, look like a pro.
SB (00:56:56):
Yeah.
SM (00:56:57):
And they can still have a mustache.
SB (00:57:01):
Right-right.
SM (00:57:01):
Yeah.
SB (00:57:03):
So anyway, that then the press picked up on it and sort of loved it. So, there you go. But that was really, I was in charge of that organizing effort in New Hampshire, and so I made the rules.
SM (00:57:27):
How were you appointed to this very important role, again in McCarthy? McCarthy had to make the final decision. He picked you.
SB (00:57:37):
Well, they were not initially focused on New Hampshire. In fact, there was some discussion of not even contesting New Hampshire because it's a conservative state. We did not have that good an organization on the ground. Maybe we should focus first on Wisconsin, a more congenial place. But some of us in the campaign felt that we had a shot at New Hampshire in an important way. And one way to say that was to say, okay, well, I believe it so strongly, I am want to go there. And then it turned out I ended up. I mean, they were not going to make a 60-year-old in charge of the student volunteers coming in. So, I was at the right place at the right time. Just lucky.
SM (00:58:37):
Now, the Moratorium, that idea came from... Oh, I remember some name came out of nowhere. I never heard of the person, but you were one of the leaders of starting the Moratorium. But originally the idea of a strike, and I have done a lot of reading about-
SB (00:58:54):
That is Jerry Grossman.
SM (00:58:56):
Yeah. Now who is he?
SB (00:58:57):
Jerry was the president of Mass Envelope Company. He is an older business guy who was the head of Massachusetts Peace Action Council. He is actually still alive. His son is running for Congress, the Senate, I do not know.
SM (00:59:13):
Oh, wow.
SB (00:59:15):
And used to be the Democratic National Committee, the chairman of the Massachusetts Democratic Party, his son. Jerry is now probably in his (19)80s, writes a blog. And he had this idea, Mass PAC actually had the idea. I mean, Jerry was the president, but the idea, I think grew up sort of organically through the organization, through Mass PAC to call a national strike. And Jerry went to see, I do not know, probably Marty [inaudible] to talk to him about money to do this thing. And Marty said, "No, go talk to Sam Brown." And I was teaching a course at the Kennedy School at the time.
SB (01:00:02):
... I was teaching a course at the Kennedy School at the time, and because I was not very good, I was young, I was kind of intimidated, most of the students were more or less my age. I was 25 and I had only graduate students and juniors and seniors, so it was ... Everybody in there was more or less my age. And I was fairly intimidated by that and not really very good at what I was doing. So, I threw out the standard way of doing it and said, "Look, since it is a seminar in contemporary American politics, what we are going to do here is we are going to talk about what you would do. We are going to learn about how politics works and what might work or might not work by taking a real issue, ending the war in Vietnam, and whether you agree with that or not, it does not matter. What we are going to talk about in this seminar is what might work." And at some point, in that seminar, we were talking about everything, demonstrations, letter writing campaigns, congressional campaigns, cutting off the budget, da-da, da-da. At some point, the idea of a strike came up, and Jerry had come to talk to me about it as I recall. And I said, "Nah, that can never work. It is too militant. It is too labor oriented. It does not sound like something that you can talk to people in the Midwest about. It sounds like the 1930s. It sounds like some lefty idea from the (19)30s. We cannot do that. But maybe we can find a way to think about that idea and not say we are going to have a strike and shut down American business, but to say instead, we are going to put aside a day to think about, to focus on this national issue and that they will put aside business as usual. Not shut down the factories, but put aside business as usual to contemplate what we are doing." And anyway, that grew over a period of time through that spring, in that seminar we refined that idea, and we needed ... Refined it to the place where we thought it was a pretty good idea. And then I raised some money to start the organization. And I had friends who I'd worked with in other things, David Hawk, David Mixner, Marge Sklencar, and a couple of students from my seminar, two or three students, in fact, from my seminar, who came to work in the office. And so, we started with a core staff of six or eight people, 10 or something like that. The core probably being the four of us, David and David and Marge and me as co-coordinators, term of art appropriate to the 1960s. Not leader and followers, but co-coordinators [inaudible].
SM (01:03:20):
Yeah, that was what SDS was supposed to be about, everybody's ...
SB (01:03:25):
Yeah, right.
SM (01:03:25):
Yeah. No leader, just...
SB (01:03:32):
Yeah. So, we just came down here in June after school was out and opened an office and announced we were going to end the war. Fairly audacious undertaking, but there you go. And because of the McCarthy campaign and the CIA thing, and one thing and another, I knew a lot of press people, so I knew we could get decent coverage for whatever we were going to do.
SM (01:04:01):
Boy, it was big. Because I can remember students from my college going to it, and it was big.
SB (01:04:11):
Yes.
SM (01:04:11):
And I know that we had students going to it from Binghamton, and of course that was ... It was in October, I think?
SB (01:04:20):
October 15th.
SM (01:04:22):
Yeah, October 15th was the actual across the country. And then November 15th was the actual event.
SB (01:04:25):
The [inaudible]".
SM (01:04:27):
Now, how many people were actually at the Washington Monument, because that is on Thomas Power's book, the front cover of his book?
SB (01:04:33):
Yeah.
SM (01:04:34):
That is the picture.
SB (01:04:35):
Yeah, that picture is actually hanging over there. My wife just gave it to me for Christmas this past year.
SM (01:04:41):
Oh my gosh.
SB (01:04:42):
Yeah. That was ... Who knows? I mean, everybody lies and nobody really knows. Estimates vary, but it was probably a half a million people, something like that. But I think you'd ... On any given day, depending on somebody's political instincts, they would say it was a hundred thousand or a million, 500,000. I mean, people ... But I think it was probably around 500,000.
SM (01:05:15):
It was a tremendous success. But from what I gathered, Nixon, as he always did, "Yeah, it was a big event, but it is not going to affect me at all on how I run things." Is that true? He was ...
SB (01:05:29):
No. Well, Dan Ellsberg tells me that it is not true, and Dan was still there, and he says that Nixon, that there was serious discussion about the use of tactical nuclear weapons in Vietnam, and that the moratorium ended that. Certainly, it forced them to rethink how they were going to conduct the war after that. And their first rethink was in the spring when they actually escalated the war, substantially in April when they ...
SM (01:06:07):
Oh, yeah.
SB (01:06:11):
And then that led to its own new round of demonstrations and opposition. But I think, I mean, Dan says he knows this with absolute certainty that from inside ...
SM (01:06:33):
That movie is out right now, The Most Dangerous Man in America is opening tonight in Philadelphia at the Ritz Theater. I am going tomorrow to see it.
SB (01:06:43):
Yeah. I saw it a few months ago.
SM (01:06:44):
I am heading off to the 40th remembrance at Kent State too. I have a question about that, but I have a question about who the speakers were at the moratorium in ...
SB (01:06:54):
Oh God.
SM (01:06:56):
... 1969. I know Benjamin Spock spoke ...
SB (01:06:58):
There was a struggle all the time because McGovern spoke, but the left did not want him to speak. I do not remember. David Hawk spoke there. I do not know. I just do not remember. I'd gotten arrested with Spock the night before. There was an effort to do something to say this was going to be non-violent. So, we were going to show the way by a demonstration at Lafayette Square, where a bunch of us got arrested. But I do not remember who ... I mean, I remember the fights about who should not speak.
SM (01:07:49):
Right. You had musicians there too that performed?
SB (01:07:53):
Yeah, I think Peter, Paul and Mary performed then. I am not sure who else. I just do not know.
SM (01:07:57):
I think Teddy Kennedy came and spoke too, did not he? I think.
SB (01:07:59):
I do not ...
SM (01:08:01):
I have some literature here ...
SB (01:08:02):
Maybe.
SM (01:08:03):
... that says that he came out and said a few things.
SB (01:08:04):
Okay.
SM (01:08:07):
Kent State, obviously after the moratorium in (19)69, and the reaction that I thought that Nixon gave to that particular event, then the peace activities were going on, so people looked at him more as the peace candidate, so it kind of died. So, the protest movement kind of ended there until the Kent State killings?
SB (01:08:30):
Well, it was not clear what he was doing at that point. And what happened really, in my recollection is, in October and November, we spent so much energy that when it came time for December, everybody ... Students were home. They were not on their campuses. It was hard to organize. You could not reach people. We had become sort of sclerotic. We had offices all over the country at that point. We were spending a lot of money to keep alive, not much real activity, so we decided ... I mean, we just sat down with our staff and said, "This is crazy." So, we closed. And then in the spring, of course, with the bombing, the Cambodia bombing over there, yeah, it just sort of blossomed from that. I mean, that was the ...
SM (01:09:37):
Now that was ... I asked quite a few of my interviewees where they were when two or three of these tragedies happened. Where were you when you heard about Kent State, number one, and where were you when you heard about John Kennedy's assassination?
SB (01:09:51):
Well, John Kennedy, I remember distinctly, I was at Redlands and I was working on a conference, a farm worker conference that weekend. And we were setting up tables and getting ready to do this conference when I heard about it. And then went to the cafeteria, and we were just sort of all in shock. And Kent State, I was here in Washington, but I do not recall precisely where, but it was so ... I mean, that two or three days around there, it was all kind of mushes together because it was such a blossoming, really, of anti-war activity. I think that spring ... I have this vague recollection that spring was the first Earth Day.
SM (01:11:06):
Yes. It was April 22.
SB (01:11:08):
And I had been working on Earth Day with Dennis Hayes and a bunch of people.
SM (01:11:12):
I have interviewed Dennis.
SB (01:11:12):
Yeah, he is a good guy.
SM (01:11:12):
He is.
SB (01:11:15):
He is a really good guy. So, I was around here because of that, and I had probably traveled someplace on the 22nd to speak, but I was living here and I do not remember exactly where I was.
SM (01:11:30):
You knew Senator Nelson too, when ... Because he was very involved in Earth Day.
SB (01:11:35):
Yeah, oh, sure.
SM (01:11:36):
The organizing of it.
SB (01:11:36):
Yeah.
SM (01:11:36):
One of the things that fascinate me about your background too, and I know you are probably very proud of this, was the book that you Wrote, which is called the Storefront Organizing.
SB (01:11:50):
Oh, Storefront Organizing.
SM (01:11:51):
And what really got me excited because it was dedicated to Jesse Unruh. I know him real well from living in California, and Senator McCarthy. But I love this quote, and I am not sure ... I get these quotes out of the ... But I think this is beautiful. You got to be proud of this.
SB (01:12:11):
Whatever.
SM (01:12:12):
"The bias is against the status quo rather than for it, because the few have always been well organized. The many have never been organized and never had a voice. Grassroots organizing is the way to change this." Now, that to me is beautiful. That is something that is about grassroots organizing. That says it all, but ...
SB (01:12:35):
Thank you.
SM (01:12:35):
But no, that is beautiful. But that booklet, you saw the need, just like I mentioned about students today ... I think, I do not know if this book is out of print. I think you ought to get this book back in print, I think, and put it on college campuses, because I think they are lost.
SB (01:12:51):
Well, it was just, it was largely a technical manual. It is sort of where you get office space and how you do various kinds of things. And of course, the times have changed so much that the techniques would have to have necessarily changed with it. There is actually another thing you may not have seen that I am, in some ways, even prouder of a piece wrote for the Washington Monthly called The Politics of the Peace.
SM (01:13:17):
When was that?
SB (01:13:19):
That would have been in late (19)69, early (19)70.
SM (01:13:26):
Can you get that, or?
SB (01:13:29):
It is probably archived, or it is certainly in a library, or ...
SM (01:13:33):
Okay.
SB (01:13:37):
I do not know. That is what I was looking for over there was to see if I might see a copy of it, but I do not know that I have a copy of it here. Anyway, but that it was a long piece that The New York Times then wrote a very laudatory editorial about, saying that they thought it was real smart, which is always a nice thing to have someone say.
SM (01:14:05):
Has that ever been put into a book as a ... Like essays of the (19)60s or the (19)70s or?
SB (01:14:10):
No, no. I think the only place it has been published was in the Washington Monthly. But Random House then came to me and offered me a contractor to write a book, and I went to write the book and discovered when I got to writing it that I really had about 12,000 words to say, and I would said them all. So, I returned the advance to Random House and got on with my life.
SM (01:14:39):
Wow. That is an interesting story. If I get a copy of that ... I am going to try to find it, but ... Not today, but down the road.
SB (01:14:46):
Yeah. I do not know whether you can find ... Maybe you can Google or maybe it is ... Or, whatever. Anyway, the Politics of Peace.
SM (01:14:56):
I have interviewed quite a few people from the Peace Corps in this project. Bill Jacobson ... Bill, he's great. We had a Peace Corps conference that I organized at our camp with Harris Swafford and [inaudible] ...
SB (01:15:08):
He is a really great guy.
SM (01:15:08):
Yeah, and we brought in five or six of the original people from the beginning, and ... Of course, Sergeant Shriver could not come because he is not well, and he has got Alzheimers, but they told him that this was happening. We have got it all on tape. But that must have made you feel really good, I mean, to be picked by President Carter to be the head of action and to oversee the Peace Corps and Volunteers in Service to America, which were ... When you were a boomer in the (19)60s, you knew about SDS, you knew about Black Panthers, you knew about certain things. But you knew about the Peace Corps, and you knew about VISTA and they were important. And just any thoughts you have about that experience of working for the Peace Corps, and maybe working with Sergeant Shriver, and knowing the people that were linked to ... And being a part of the continuity of its history?
SB (01:16:09):
Yeah. Well, again, I was lucky. I mean, I was the state treasurer in Colorado at the time, and I have gotten to know Carter during the course of the campaign. So of course, I was ... When he asked me, I did not hesitate. I probably could have been more gracious to the people who would help me get elected state treasurer by at least having a momentary pause before leaving the job to go to Washington. But, yeah, it was a terrific opportunity. And the Peace Corps is a very interesting institution because it has the theory that people will only be there five years, can only work there for five years, and then have to go out in order to renew. It has a funny opposite effect part of the time, which is that it tends to create the myth that it is ... It clings to its founding myths more strongly, I think, because of that than it might have if the same people had just stayed on. So, I am never sure about how that idea, which seems like a really smart idea, and I thought it was a smart idea, and it seemed like the right idea, but I am not quite sure that it actually works the way the founding fathers would have wanted it to work. And it also may be that just like any other institution, when it gets to a certain size, it becomes very difficult to move it in any very substantial way. I mean, it sort of has its own path and I was too young really probably to figure out that you could not go in and say, "Okay, now we're going to do this," and not have everybody say, "No, we are not going to do that." So, it was difficult for me. I mean, thank God for Dick Celeste, because action had been sort of forced together by the Nixon administration. There was a strong year irredentist movement in the Peace Corps that said it should be independent again. I thought it should be sort of policy independent ... Well, it cannot be policy independent. It's driven by the president. The Congress and the President give the policy. So, it cannot really be ... You know, you cannot go out and remake it into something that is not. But I thought there could be more ways of cooperating and training between Vista and Peace Corps. Peace Corps resisted that pretty systematically and consistently, because they were ... Okay. They would deny this, but I think it is true because they saw themselves as the sort of elite volunteers, VISTA volunteers. I thought being a VISTA volunteer was at least as hard as being a Peace Corps volunteer because you got to deal with your friends and neighbors.
SM (01:19:20):
When I was in high school, I knew kids that looked at them equally. I know a couple went into VISTA, before they went off to college, they wanted to do the VISTA thing.
SB (01:19:31):
Yeah. Well, it was a terrific opportunity and a wonderful four years for me, and I could not replace it, and I could not replace the people I had a chance to work with those years, for me.
SM (01:19:43):
You seem to be a little bit like the person who founded it though, because Sergeant Shriver believed in ... From reading his biography by Stossel, he had a whip in his office. I do not know if you have ever saw the whip?
SB (01:19:54):
No.
SM (01:19:54):
Yeah. In the early offices of the Peace Corps, and people asked him, "Why do you have a whip in your office," and being the guy he is, he said, "Well, it just means that I am a hard driving person. I work very hard and I work hour after hour," because he believed that this is the toughest job you will ever have. That was kind of the philosophy, but it is the greatest feeling because he ... Stories about he would sleep on the floor of an airplane when he flew. He did everything that the workers were doing. He was a great example. And one of the things says he believed in the think of hard work, and from what I am gathering and I read about you, you would be working 18-hour days. You had the same kind of philosophy, working all kinds of ... That was one of the qualities, when I read about your background, people admired you because you were a one heck of a worker.
SB (01:20:50):
Yeah. Well, who is it says, Woody Allen? "Success is 1 percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration." Right? Or whoever it was that said that. I think a lot of that is true. And the only thing that they left out is that there is also a good deal of luck involved, in my experience. Being there the right time, in the right place. Now, sometimes if you're working ...
Allison (01:21:14):
Hello.
SB (01:21:17):
Hi! If you are working additional hours in one thing than another, you're more likely to be in the right place. Because we are there all the time.
SM (01:21:27):
In the 2004 election with Senator Carey, you made some comments too, you know one of ...
SB (01:21:34):
My wife, Allison.
SM (01:21:35):
Oh, hi.
Allison (01:21:35):
Oh, do not ... That is okay. We [inaudible] ...
SM (01:21:39):
One of the things that happens is the Vietnam syndrome. Today, you cannot even bring up Vietnam, or ... At least in the university, and I have been the university for 30 years. Whenever you bring up the word Vietnam or quagmire, it sends all kinds of unbelievable waves amongst fellow boomers that run universities or students who either their parents have told some them about bad things about that particular era or whatever, or maybe not explained it properly. But when Senator Kerry was running for president, you were very upset over bringing ... About his service record, when they were not talking about ideas. It was more, they were making comments about whether everything that he said was true.
SB (01:22:24):
Oh, [inaudible] because they were lying about his service record.
SM (01:22:28):
Yeah, yeah. And this is another quote of yours, and I think it is very important because it is somewhat symbolic of what I have witnessed in universities for the past 30 years whenever we talk about Vietnam. And the quote here is that "36 years after the idealism that produced the McCarthy insurgency, I see nasty, mean spirited, politic politics on all sides." You compare it to the Chicago comity pits. I thought that was interesting. And I do not know if that is true, whether that is an exaggerated quote, but you bring up a good point, because in that election, to me, that was ridiculous to bring those things up.
SB (01:23:10):
Yeah, it was [inaudible] ...
SM (01:23:11):
Had nothing to do with ...
SB (01:23:12):
Nothing to do with it.
SM (01:23:13):
... what was going on. And to me, it is like the battle of Vietnam never stops.
SB (01:23:21):
Yeah. Well, the right has sort of demonized the (19)60s, and it was an era of loose morals and loose living and rejection of authority. And I mean, all kinds of things that the right says about it. And I just think that what they confuse, what gets conflated here is, there were really several things going on. One was a kind of cultural identity and revolution in politics, and Abby and Jerry and that crowd were into cultural revolution. Then there was the anti-war movement, which had to do ... Which was focused on political change. And sometimes those got ... They overlap, but frequently they were quite different. That is, the people who were working in the anti-war movement were not also spending their time promoting free love and free drugs and whatever other things that the right has said, "Oh yeah, well, the anti-war in the (19)60s. It is all the same." It was not all the same. There were distinct currents going on, and the anti-war current was, in fact, in some ways ... It certainly questioned authority, but it did not ... Most of us who were deeply involved did not intend to overthrow the cultural life of the world. I mean, we were more interested in ending the war and stopping the killing, and whatever we had to do to effectively do that. And we did not think that meant that the way to get that done was to go around breaking windows and making a fool of yourself. But the right has sort of stuck all that together and called it the (19)60s. And it's really quite different.
SM (01:25:30):
Because Newt Gingrich, when he came into power in (19)94, made some very strong comments about that particular period and blaming the breakdown of our society, the divorce rate, the second revolution, the drug culture, the isms, the welfare state, everything was blamed on that particular period.
SB (01:25:49):
Yeah. But I will tell you, you have been around interviewing people. David Hawk has been married for 30 years. I have been married for 30 years, and make a list of whoever you have gone to see. And by and large, I mean ... David Harris, I mean, was first divorced and then his wife tragically died.
SM (01:26:12):
Died, right.
SB (01:26:14):
But by and large, the people I know from that era have pretty stable personal lives, and family lives with a spouse or a partner or whatever. And frequently, the people throwing those rocks are the ones who themselves have personal lives that are a mess, and ...
SM (01:26:40):
Now George occasionally will take shots too.
SB (01:26:43):
Oh, yeah.
SM (01:26:46):
In his columns, in his books, he will have one or two little articles really attacking the (19)60s, but attacking the boomers, basically. And yeah, it is 78 million people is what we're talking about. One of the issues that I have tried to bring up with all of my interviewees is the issue of healing. I know we are getting toward the hour and a half here. We took a group of students to see Senator Musky about eight months before he passed away. It was a program we worked with Senator Nelson. I knew Senator Nelson real well. We would brought him twice to Westchester University, and we had organized nine trips. Okay.
SB (01:27:30):
It has been rescheduled. I am going to need to take it.
SM (01:27:31):
Right.
SB (01:27:33):
But they will call and let me know.
SM (01:27:34):
What was I ... I was starting to ask something here.
SB (01:27:39):
Senator Nelson, some trips?
SM (01:27:41):
OH, yeah. Yeah. It was about the issue of healing. The students actually came up with the question. The question was this, due to all the divisions that took place in America in the 1960s, particularly witnessing 1968, and since you were the vice presidential running mate at the Democratic Convention, I would like your response to this question that is, have we healed as a nation since those times or were those Black against white, male against female, gay against straight, those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops, those who did not, Vietnam veterans, against the anti-war people. The list goes on and on here. And the thought was that these young people who had not been born when all of these things were happening had heard that we were close to a second civil war in the United States? We were close to tearing this nation apart. Just your thoughts as-as Senator. And of course, he ... I would like your response to that first, and then I will tell you what Senator Musky said.
SB (01:28:46):
Yeah. No, I do not think, I mean, we were not close then. And I mean, in some ways I think we are closer now because the politics is deteriorated into ... There used to be adults in politics who could criticize each other, but still go out and have a drink. And I knew those people. I mean, I knew that time. And it seems like that time has now sort of passed. And the politics has been debased into essentially name calling and special interests trying to demonize everybody they are against. And the (19)60s make an easy target for that. But the idea that somehow or another in the (19)60s, we were close to civil war is preposterous. I mean, we were divided, but some things began to grow. I think, I mean, the moratorium was the first thing that a major trade union, the United Auto Workers, endorsed the moratorium, which we were very proud of because the unions at the time ...
SM (01:30:03):
...We were proud of because the unions at the time were widely regarded as sort of flag waving. Whatever America wants to do was okay with us. And we had the usual little lefty unions, 1199 and the Leather Workers and stuff. But when we got the union, when we got the UAW of endorsement, even that, there was always a kind of tension in the room. Here's a bunch of young lefties, and here is people who are more worried about what happens on the shop floor than they are about what happens in Vietnam. And you could still have that discussion. I am not sure now you can have the discussion with the teabags. I do not know if there is any basis there to talk about. Their vision of the world is so different. So, no, I think we were not even close, and I think we're more divided in many ways right now than we were then. We thought Senator Musk, his response is, we have not healed since the Civil War. And then he went on to talk about the loss of 430,000 to 440,000 men in the Civil War where South almost lost their entire generation. And because he had just seen the Ken Burn series and he says, "I am not going to talk about (19)68". He did not even mention it.
SB (01:31:36):
Yeah. Good for him.
SM (01:31:42):
And if you go to Gettysburg, I do not know if you have been to Gettysburg. It is amazing when you go there that you see the flags on the southern side, the Confederate side, you see nothing left on the northern side. And yet I will interview Phyllis Schlafly, who I interviewed about three weeks ago here, and she said, "Oh, the North has not gotten over it, but the South has." So, we cannot even agree on the Civil War because she says the South has healed and the North has not. And if you go to Gettysburg, you would think it is the other way around. But those are pretty good comments. The students were expecting of different responses.
SB (01:32:20):
Yeah.
SM (01:32:24):
I want your thoughts on the split between the white students and the black students in the (19)60s. They were together for a while against the Vietnam War, and then toward the latter part of the (19)60s, you could see it on college campuses, they were distancing themselves from the Anti-war Movement and more toward the Black Power Movement here in the United States with Black Panthers and everything. At Kent State, you can hardly find any African American students at the protest. Although I recently saw one of an African American students holding one of the students that was wounded, so there were a few there. But did you sense the split within the moratorium? Did you sense the split that African-American students or the Latina students, the-
SB (01:33:09):
African-American and Latinas were never deeply involved for the reasons that I am not quite clear about, but I do not think it was so much as a split as there was never a common ground. The African-American students that I knew and the movement people tended to be focused, as you say, on identity questions of black politics, of black power, of war on domestic issues of racism and poverty. And most of the people I knew in the Anti-war Movement took a nod in that direction. Many of us came out of the Civil Rights Movement, but were focused first and foremost on the war. I do not think it was so much a split as it was never really together.
SM (01:34:02):
Were you pretty cognizant and-
SB (01:34:04):
Except during Civil Rights era. And during civil rights era, it was very much together.
SM (01:34:10):
You obviously went to three different schools, I think you went to the Red lands, I think Rutgers, and then you went up to Harvard Divinity School. Did you have a knowledge and a sense that the free speech movement of (19)64 and (19)65 was very important for college students beyond Berkeley? Because of the fact that those students believed in freedom of speech. Most of them had experience, which we already talked about, of going the Freedom Summer in the South. Many of them came back like Mario Sabio and Bettina after, and Tom Hayden and Casey Hayden, I am interviewing her as well. And what I am getting at here is that ideas were more important than careers. Mario Sabio talked about that all the time, that when he grew up in the (19)50s and then in the early (19)60s, the difference between his parents and that generation and our generation is that we are different. We believe that a university's for ideas, not preparing people for careers. Did that have any sense within the movement south where you worked with David Mixner and David Hawk and the others, that they were really more into ideas and not into career?
SB (01:35:31):
The, it is a comment of privilege, frankly. We grew up in a new prosperity that our parents had not experienced. And they were, I think more driven by career because their life experience was that it is fragile and you do not know what's going to happen, and you need to focus on that. For us, at least in my experience, it was quite different than that. Jobs were readily available. You always knew you could do something. Money was not... None of us needed a lot of money to live. Our expectations were not, at least mine, of having any substantial amount of money. You're working for 30 bucks a week or 50 bucks a week and doing organizing stuff. Well, that was fulfilling and it was enough money. We had to share houses because nobody could afford to live on their own, so you end up renting a house with six other people or something, because that was the only way we could afford it. But that was in some ways a time of... That is a comment about privilege as much as it is about the times. My kids do not feel that. They know it is going to be really hard, jobs are tough. It is hard to figure out what you are going to do. You do not have the privilege of assuming, "Oh, well I will go do that for three or four years and then I will be able to land on my feet someplace else." And so, at least in the case of my career, it is serendipitous. It certainly was not planned. I could never have planned that. I did not think when I was a young man that I was going to be a US ambassador. that I was going to be right here now. That I was going to run an agency. That I would be an elected official, none of that. It was all just sort of one thing led into another and I was in the right place at the right time.
SM (01:37:33):
You talked earlier about the fact that you have poor violence, because it is only negative when you have violence and it hurts the image of a group. But do you think that the violence when students from Democratic Society, which was a really legitimately good group, went to become the Weathermen, and when the Black Power Movement with the Black Panthers and a bunch Chicano movement, when the Young Lords. And when the American Indian Movement from (19)69 to (19)73 became violent around wounded knee. All these groups tended to head towards some sense of violence. Is that a first?
SB (01:38:16):
Yeah, sure.
SM (01:38:16):
Does that permanent [inaudible]?
SB (01:38:19):
And it destroyed them. It effectively destroyed SDS when the Weatherman split off. Suddenly you had to either denounce them or be identified with them. And I just think it is a fruitless short term, stupid dead end. It is not as if you are going to change this country by violence. And we should have learned from Dr. King, that you can change the country, but not with violence. And so, all of those split offs ended up destroying the very movement that they thought they were being the cadre or the radical cutting edge or the leadership, whatever kind of crazy terms they applied.
SM (01:39:21):
Your thoughts on the Vietnam Veterans of America who kind of took over the Anti-war Movement of (19)71, because SDS basically went. And the other groups had their own problems, but they seemed to carry on the anti-war movement from 71 until almost the very end.
SB (01:39:38):
That is true.
SM (01:39:40):
Yeah. How important were they overall in the scheme of things?
SB (01:39:43):
Well, it was terribly important because the politics of it were important. The right did not have a singular monopoly on saying, "Well, we support the troops." If the troops are saying, "We do not like this war," then those people who are against it are actually supporting the troops. So, it changed the politics dramatically. They have that, it was a big deal. It was a big deal.
SM (01:40:12):
When you look at, after all your years as an activist, an organizer, a leader, or an ambassador, like you said, I have not even gone into some of the other things you have done in the last 30 years. Because we'd be here five hours if that was the case. What lessons can you pass on to young people today based on your experiences, especially if young people are willing to listen in the tough times that they are living through right now, where they are just trying to survive and struggle with?
SB (01:40:46):
Yeah, it is very tough.
SM (01:40:47):
And in oftentimes had no time at all to even be involved in the classroom activities.
SB (01:40:53):
That is right, because they are working.
SM (01:40:54):
Yeah.
SB (01:40:54):
I remember that was also at a time when the great public universities were still accessible to people of modest means, which is decreasingly true as time has gone on, and vanishingly true now. So, what would I say? Well, I would say, I guess what I say pretty much to my kids, which is, you need to care about these things, they matter. They will matter to your children. They will matter to you. Whether it is the war or healthcare. You need to care and you need to be informed. But you also need to find sort of your own muse in terms of what you do with a career. It's not for everybody to be actively involved on a daily basis. One of my kids is an actor. One of them in graduate school at Berkeley. One of them is in a PhD program at University of Virginia.
SM (01:42:02):
My nephew is going there next year.
SB (01:42:04):
Yeah. Well, they are doing other things, but they have, all of them, a great consciousness about the common good, about the public good, and about their obligation to pay attention to that. To be involved in campaigns. To be active voters. Everybody can do that. Everybody can do that. And if you do not do that, then I do not know what it means to be a good citizen. That is the core of what it means to be a good citizen, is to pay attention.
SM (01:42:44):
Good words. What do you think the legacy will be of the... Yeah, we are talking 78 million people here. Todd Gitlin said... I kept talking about Boomers. He had a problem with it from the get go. And I have had several people decide, I am going to talk about Boomers.
SB (01:42:57):
Yeah.
SM (01:42:57):
I am going to talk about the period, the times, the issues.
SB (01:42:57):
Well, I agree with Todd about that.
SM (01:43:04):
And people your age, a lot of the people were the graduate students that were leading the undergraduates in the (19)60s. And Abby and Jerry Rubin and Tom Hayden, they were in the early and-
SB (01:43:16):
They are all a little older than me. Slightly older than I am. I think.
SM (01:43:19):
So, they call them pre-Boomers. And Richie Hayden, when I interviewed him, said, "I consider myself a boomer, Steve. I am a boomer. I was born in 1940, but I am a boomer."
SB (01:43:30):
I do not much like the term myself. But that post-war generation had a different life experience then. If the one before was the depression era, we lived through the prosperity era.
SM (01:43:44):
Yeah. What do you think the legacy will be when the best history books are written about the generation, particularly after on the 78 million have passed away?
SB (01:43:56):
I am hoping that the memory will be that we took our country seriously and we took seriously our obligations to try to set it right when we thought it had gone wrong. We were not always right, but I think it's changed and I think you see that now in, for instance, the openness toward gays. I think that is a legacy of that idea that all people should be acceptable for who they are. That is a direct derivative of the civil rights movement it seems to me. It took more years than it should have, but I think that openness of spirit is an important legacy. I would hope that would be seen. The (19)60s would be seen as the time when we began to take our country seriously enough and our fellow citizens seriously enough to really raise questions about the treatment of black people, for people. Hispanic people. Native American people, whatever. Gay people. It gets caricatured by the right as being so open-minded that our brains fell out. And I do not think that is the way it was. That is not my recollection of it. We thought hard and worried about the impact of our actions and took it seriously.
SM (01:45:46):
See, the no movements, you could say it, were a movement generation because a lot of these movements came about as a result of studying the Civil Rights movement and using it as an example, as a model. And certainly, the Anti-war Movement historically did that. Certainly, the Women's Movement and the separation. But if you study any of the movements, whether there's Chicano, Native American, even the Environmental Movement. Because I can remember, I have interviewed some people about how important it was with the Anti-war people making up with the Environmental people before Earth Day, and the consulting that went on between the two groups. To me that was collaboration, which should be a quality that we cannot forget. You have to collaborate to be successful.
SB (01:46:29):
Yeah.
SM (01:46:31):
And that to me, and I will get your thoughts on that, as a person who was involved in the Moratorium and the Anti-war that had the Environmental Movement student or young people consulting the Anti-war Movement, we're not going to step on what you're doing. Do you remember how important that was?
SB (01:46:47):
Oh yeah. That whole spring, the whole Earth Day, the first discussions were... I had been involved with this major event in the fall or events in the fall. So of course, they wanted to say, "Well, how would you do this? And what do you do about that? How do you get this done? Who do you talk to there?" So sure, there was a lot of that going on.
SM (01:47:11):
I only have three more questions and I will be done. I am not going to give you a name. I had this thing at the end where I give you names and terms, and what are your thought? I am not going to do that because you have given me already a lot of time. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
SB (01:47:29):
Oh, it probably began in the mid (19)60s, actually, or the (19)60s, like (19)63, (19)64. And probably ended about (19)70, early (19)70s sometime. It did not start in 1960, at least in my recollection and experience, it did not start in 1960 before end in 1970. they certainly carried over through a year or two to get-
SM (01:47:56):
Stay Earth Day. In (19)73, a lot of people say went into (19)73, and you could even see on campuses the change in the fall of (19)73.
SB (01:48:03):
Really?
SM (01:48:04):
But the guy was there, and (19)72, (19)73, there were still things happening. And then on the fall, something streaking happened, and I knew it was over.
SB (01:48:14):
It was over.
SM (01:48:17):
Was there a specific event? (19)63 is the Kennedy assassination or the-
SB (01:48:22):
Well, the Kennedy assassination. The following year of the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, the Civil Rights Movement. Everything sort of came together to raise questions about the American narrative. And it was that questioning, which really led to many other things.
SM (01:48:42):
When you look at your fellow Boomers, I consider you a boomer. I consider pre-Boomers as Boomers, they are all one. When you consider the 15 percent that were categorized as activists, which is still a lot of people in 70 million, can you, from the people you know, because that is all you can really talk about, what were their strengths and what were their weaknesses? If you were to, from a person who worked with so many?
SB (01:49:15):
Well, the biggest weakness was probably clarity of analysis. There was a lot of bullshit in the rhetoric at the time. There was a great deal of inflammatory language and schismatic politics so that you would have the, not just SDS, but Socialist Workers, Progressive Labor, the Shack Mantes, the Trotskyite, the boot-boot, boot. everything was split up. And now partly that reflected the fact that people were thinking about ideas and so they were driven in various directions by what they thought about those ideas. But I think our biggest weakness was really probably a lack of consistency in the analysis. A lack of rigor about how people thought about their own actions. The greatest strength, I suppose, was simply the incredible energy. And aside from that intellectual piece, the brains, the attention to getting things done. That is a funny thing to say, that the weakness was analysis, but one of the strengths was it was a bunch of very smart people.
SM (01:50:55):
My last question is, and I asked this probably on about half of the people I have interviewed, because I have been doing this since (19)96. Now the last year I have been asking, this is important. That might be your call, right?
SB (01:51:01):
Yeah.
SM (01:51:01):
And then I going-
SB (01:51:20):
Hello? Yes. Hey, Steve, can I call you back in two minutes? I will call you right back. No, that is not the call I have to take.
SM (01:51:28):
All right. Well, this is the last question though. But in your eyes, I have asked each person who has experienced the 60 plus years that Boomers have been alive from (19)46 to 2010, just a couple sentences to describe the decades that these people lived. And I break it down from right after the war, (19)46 to (19)60. (19)60 to (19)70. (19)71 to (19)80. (19)81 to (19)90. (19)91 to 2000. 2001 to 2010. Just characteristics of the legacy.
SB (01:52:01):
Well, the (19)50s, my experience in the (19)50s was classically late 1950s. It could not have been more suburban, bland, ordinary. That was my experience of life is everybody's stereotype of it was the life I lived.
SM (01:52:24):
Right.
SB (01:52:27):
Bland food, bland politics, bland everything. The (19)60s was in my experience as you know on a time of this incredible intellectual engagement and in ideas. And so, I kept going to school. And when I was not going to school, I was writing something or reading something or whatever. And also, of enormous change. I would say most of my best friends are people in most cases that I have known since the (19)60s. There was a kind of bond forged there in common action that even when it turns out sometimes later in life, you do not even like them much, you still think of him as friends because you shared so much, such an experience together. The (19)70s, well, for me, it was the enormous hope of finally electing a president who seemed to have some vision for the country, and then the incredible loss that it turned out that he could not actually govern. The (19)70s are a sort of lost hope generation. It went from really thinking, "Wow, the war is over. We can begin to rebuild the country. We can do some exciting things." To Ronald Reagan. The (19)80s. The (19)80s for me are all Ronald, they're just Reagan. He was the dominant figure. It was the dominant politics. It was the change and it was rejection of the two previous decades in a fundamental way, which is really what he ran on. And just to fall back into some vague America hurrah kind of thoughtless politics. In the (19)90s, we are once again an era of some hope, but much more tempered than for me. My expectations, Clinton's a friend of mine for many years before he was elected president. I thought he was the political genius that he turns out to be. Now, there is a guy that Luke Gingrich could say was undisciplined. But sadly, because he is the political genius of our generation indisputably. There is nobody even like him. The next generation has Obama, but our generation, Bill Clinton. So, the (19)90s were a much more tempered hope. Economic recovery, for me, of course, the (19)80s and (19)90s were the time when my children were young. So, a lot of that time was spent with family not doing something else. And then the first 10 years of this decade lost again to war and to growing anger. I just find it depressing. I find right now, I have never been so discouraged about the country as I am right at this moment. We have got this fabulous president who offers a real opportunity, and yet we cannot get passed the... We cannot have a real discussion about healthcare because one party has decided we are not going to have that discussion, that it is in their interest. Well, I cannot imagine it is in the country's interest to not have a discussion, a real discussion about healthcare. It is in the country's issue to fix this problem not to just say no. Anyway.
SM (01:56:54):
And I am done. But I would like just your thoughts. What do you think about the Vietnam Memorial? What has it really done to the nation, and why did we lose the war? I am, I am actually going over there. I go over there every time I am here. What does it mean to you that wall? James Scrap said he wrote the book to heal a nation. He said it was not only about healing the families of those who served, but and also to be a non-political entity.
SB (01:57:25):
Yeah. I find it terribly. I think everyone, I find the symbolism of it moving and a visit to it because of the that incredible list of names. We have now been at war for eight years in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we have lost 3,600,
SM (01:57:47):
Oh no. More than that.
SB (01:57:47):
5,000.
SM (01:57:51):
It is in the 4,600 right now. We are heading to five.
SB (01:57:53):
Yeah. But you walk down there and walk past the 55,000 names on that wall, it reminds you of... When we went to 125,000 troops in Afghanistan that was a huge deal. Remember, we had 550,000 troops in Vietnam.
SM (01:58:13):
And in your opinion as a person who fought to end that war, what was the main reason that Vietnam War ended?
SB (01:58:20):
Oh, exhaustion. Country just got tired of it, it just wore us out. And also, if you think about what it did to Vietnam, we would pretty... There was not much left to fight over by the time we got done there. We had so destroyed that country, and it has been so remarkable the way that it's been rebuilt since then. So disappointing in many ways and some of the things that the Vietnamese leadership did after the war. But anyway.
SM (01:58:59):
Very good. Well, thank you.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Sam Brown
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Brown, Sam, 1943- ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Politicians--United States--20th century; Political activists--United States; Brown, Sam, 1943--Interviews
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Sam Brown is a politician and political activist. Brown was the head of ACTION under President Jimmy Carter, and ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. He has a Bachelor of Arts from the University of Redlands, and a Master of Arts from Rutgers University. He also completed his graduate studies at Harvard University Divinity School.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-03-02
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.29a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.29b
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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119:03
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1960's - present
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
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Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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52:17
1:04:20
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Friedheim, memorial lecture/recital, March 4, 2010
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Held at 8:00 p.m., March 4, 2010, Casadesus Recital Hall.
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Choi, Janey
Crawford, Roberta
Salmirs, Michael
Stalker, Stephen
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d77c52f464bf5f40bbd8845e1240a3d1.jpg
29ec2597b20a383fcc7d0f67091b1ffd
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9a6d249276d05d25ea78f768d524b99d.mp3
2682f4a5da13df5a643770632b741a0d
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
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</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-03-07
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Thomas Powers
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Thomas Powers is an author and intelligence expert. Powers, a native of New York City, earned a Bachelor's degree in English from Yale University. He received the Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting with Lucinda Franks for their articles on a Weatherman member Diana Oughton."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Thomas Powers is an author and intelligence expert. Powers, a native of New York City, earned a Bachelor's degree in English from Yale University. He received the Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting with Lucinda Franks for their articles on Weather Underground member Diana Oughton.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Religion; Atheist; Black and White TV; Baby boom generation; Cowboys and Indians; Huckleberry Finn; Catcher in the Rye; Yale University; Anti-War protest; Gulf and Tonkin Resolution; SDS; FBI; J. Edgar Hoover; Admiral"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Religion; Atheist; Black and White TV; Baby boom generation; Cowboys and Indians; Huckleberry Finn; Catcher in the Rye; Yale University; Anti-War protest; Gulf of Tonkin Resolution; SDS; FBI; J. Edgar Hoover; Admiral</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
87:47
Subject LCSH
Authors; Intelligence officers; Awards—United States; Weather Underground Organization; Powers, Thomas--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Thomas Powers
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Powers, Thomas ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
2018-03-29
Subject
The topic of the resource
Authors; Intelligence officers; Awards—United States; Weather Underground Organization; Powers, Thomas--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Thomas Powers is an author and intelligence expert. Powers, a native of New York City, earned a Bachelor's degree in English from Yale University. He received the Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting with Lucinda Franks for their articles on Weather Underground member Diana Oughton.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-03-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.94
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
87:47