116
10
1775
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PDF Text
Text
INGHAMTON
B
U N I V E R S I T Y
STATE U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K
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D E P A R T M E N T
Crea tures ,
Grea t and Small
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Robert G. Smith, Con ductor
Sunday, March 7, 2010
3 :00 p.m.
Anderson Center Chamber Ha ll
�THE PERFORMERS
PROGRAM
Piccolo
Rachel Serwetz
Alfred Reed
The Hounds of Spring (1980)
(19212005)
Commissioned by the John L. Forster Secondary School Symphonic Band
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Gerald A. N Brown, Director
Roger Cichy
Bugs (2000)
1. Prelude
2. Dragonfly
3. Praying Mantis
4. Black Widow Spider
5. Tiger Swallow Tail
6. Army Ants
(b. 1956)
Rachelle Haddad (Principal)
Judy Kahn
Kathleen Spelman
Lindsay Ralbovsky
ute IT
FlKimberly Hom
Rebecca Falik
Raquel Goldsmith
Christina Peregine
David Morrissey
Melissa Klepper
Mark Norman
Vanessa Kay
Bas Clarniet
Stephen Collins
Brianna Palisi
Conratbas Calnriet
Zach Stanco
ASLTOAXOPHONEL
Alex Horspool
Commissioned by The University of St. Thomas Wind Ensemble
Dr. Matthew George. Director of Bands
. Karel Husa
Cheetah (2007)
(b. 1921)
Commissioned try The Division of Music Composition and Theory at the
University of Louisville for the University of Louisville Wind Ensemble.
Frederick Speck, Director.
The Soaring Hawk (1990)
ECb l a rine t
to
Saxophone
Al
larinet
C
b
B
Tenor Saxophone
Kyle Doyle
Kerry Goodacre
Mark DelloStritto
Trumpet
Kristen Weiss
Sarah Fenster (Principal)
larinet
C
b
B
Kristin Hohn
Anthony Kwon
Abby Cohen
aJINTERMISSIONa!
Timothy Mahr
(b. 1956)
Commissioned by the University of Iowa Symphony Band
Dr. Myron Welch, Conductor
Winner of the 1991 American Bandmaster‘s Association Ostwald Award
Equus (2000)
Elute
b l a rine t
BC
....Eric Whitacre
(b. 1970)
Commissioned by the University of Miami Wind Ensemble
Gary Green, Conductor
Seonghek Kang
Dean Papadopoulus
Nick Polaoco (principal)
Kevin Hannon
Trumpet
Nick Quackenbush
Brian Lee
Immmm
Kimberly Metaxas
(Graduate Student)
EHornI
Zack Bimbaum
Hor n
E
Natalie Rivera
Trombone
Jay Barfishevich
Trombone
Mogana Jayakumar
Ianluminous
Anthony Frachionl
honium
Eup
Damon Dye (Principal ma
Graduate Student)
Andrew Kaufman
Tuba
Matt Gukowsky
Daniel Nevins
Eemusslsm
Tom Elefa rite
Boya Gao
Adam Goldenberg
Ben Ramos
Andrew Williamson
Michael McManaman
ROBERT G. SMITH is Music Director and Conductor of the University Wind Symphony.
Profi Smith also teaches advanced instrumental conducting and graduate wind conducting at BU.
Smith has guest conducted allcounty bands throughout New York State and has conducted the
Goshen College (IND) Wind Ensemble and Orchestra, The United States Army Ground Forces
Band (GA), the Southern Tier Concert Band (NY), the Vestal Community Band (NY), The
Maine Community Band and the Binghamton Area TubaChristmas. An active performcr‘ he
currently plays principal euphonium with the Southern Tier Concert Band and tuba with the
Brass Nickel quintet and the Crown City Brass sextet. Smith is the immediate past president of
the Broome County Music Educators Association and recipient of the 2005 BCMEA
Distinguished Service Award.
�Binghamton University Music Department ’s
UPCOMING E V E N T S
Thursday, March 11M MidDay Concert, 1:20 PM FREE
Casadesus Recital Hall
Thursday, March 1 8 ” MidDay Concert, 1:20 PM —
FREE
Casadesus Recital Hall
Thursday, March 1 8 ” Harpur Chorale and Women? Chorus,
8:00 PM, Anderson Center Chamber Halll FREE
Saturday, March 20‘7h Senior Honors Recital: Briana Sakamoto, soprano,
8:00 PM, Casadesus Redta/ Hall, FREE
Sunday, March 21 ” Senior Honors Redtal: Marc Si/vagnr, percussion,
3:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
Thursday, March 25dl MidDay Concert; 1:20 PM FREE, FA 21
Thur sday, April 8°” Jazz MidDay Concert, 1 :20 PM – FREE
Osterhout Concert Theater
Thur sday, April 8m Harpur Jazz Ensemble Concert (cosponsored by the Harpur
Jazz Ensemble and the Binghamton University Department ofMus’c),
8:00 PM, Osterhout Concert Theater, $24“ (FREE for students)
Saturday, April 1 00: Junior Recital: Jieun Jang, piano, 3:00 PM, Casadesus
Recital Hall, FREE
Saturday, April 1 0 ” Sweet Albion: The English Clarinet with darinetist
Timothy Perry and pianist Margaret Reitz, 8:00 PM,
Anderson Center Chamber Hall, $$
For ticket information, please call the
Anderson Center Box Office at 777ARTS
To see all events, please visit music.binghamton.edu
Become a fan on Facebook by visiting '
Binghamton University Music Department
�
Dublin Core
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Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
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In copyright.
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Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 sound discs
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
43:04
27:14
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE154596">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE154596</a>
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Single
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Title
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Creatures Great and Small, March 7, 2010
Recital Tape 2010-3-7
Description
An account of the resource
Works by Reed, Cichy, Husa, Mahr, Whitacre. Held at 3:00 p.m., March 7, 2010, Anderson Center Chamber Hall.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
University Wind Symphony
Smith, Robert G
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-03-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
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sound
-
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07681f522885a1b08913d6d3a1552cfb
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-03-08
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Cleve Jones
Language
English
Biographical Text
Cleve Jones is the founder of the Names Project AIDS Memorial Quilt. He began his lifetime of activism in the 1970s, in part, due to his friendship with pioneer gay rights leader Harvey Milk. Jones worked as a student intern in Milk's office after his election to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors. After realizing the seriousness of AIDS, Jones created the San Francisco AIDS Foundation in 1983. He conceived the AIDS Memorial Quilt at a candlelight memorial for the late Harvey Milk. Since then, the AIDS Memorial Quilt became the largest community art project memorializing the lives of 80,000 Americans who died from AIDS. He has received international and national awards from AIDS and gay rights organizations, religious conferences, state, and national health associations, and the legislatures of California and several other states. Cleve Jones lives in San Francisco, where he serves as a community organizer for Unite Here, an international union representing hotel, food service, casino, and restaurant workers. He is also an author, lecturer, and activist who travels the country talking about his life, the AIDS Quilt, and gay activism since his early days as a student at San Francisco State University.
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
86:20
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Public experience; Purdue University; Gay liberation movement; Vietnam War; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Racism; National Liberation Front; Saigon; Democratic Party; Assassination of Harvey Milk ; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Newt Gingrich; Sexual Freedom; AIDS; LGBT; Civil Rights Movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Equal Rights Amendment; Feminist Movement; Healing; Hippies; Baby boom generation; Activism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305}}">Public experience; Purdue University; Gay liberation movement; Vietnam War; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Racism; National Liberation Front; Saigon; Democratic Party; Assassination of Harvey Milk ; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Newt Gingrich; Sexual Freedom; AIDS; LGBT; Civil Rights Movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Equal Rights Amendment; Feminist Movement; Healing; Hippies; Baby boom generation; Activism.</span>
Subject LCSH
Human rights workers; Authors; Gay liberation movement—United States; Jones, Cleve--Interviews
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Cleve Jones
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jones, Cleve ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Human rights workers; Authors; Gay liberation movement—United States; Jones, Cleve--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Cleve Jones is a human rights activist, author, and lecturer. He joined the gay liberation movement in the early 1970s and worked with one of his early mentors, Harvey Milk, a politician and LGBT activist. During the AIDS epidemic, he co-founded the San Francisco AIDS Foundation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305},"12":0}">Cleve Jones is a human rights activist, author, and lecturer. He joined the gay liberation movement in the early 1970s and worked with one of his early mentors, Harvey Milk, a politician and LGBT activist. During the AIDS epidemic, he co-founded the San Francisco AIDS Foundation.</span>
Cleve Jones is the founder of the Names Project AIDS Memorial Quilt. He began his lifetime of activism in the 1970s, in part, due to his friendship with pioneer gay rights leader Harvey Milk. Jones worked as a student intern in Milk's office after his election to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors. After realizing the seriousness of AIDS, Jones created the San Francisco AIDS Foundation in 1983. He conceived the AIDS Memorial Quilt at a candlelight memorial for the late Harvey Milk. Since then, the AIDS Memorial Quilt became the largest community art project memorializing the lives of 80,000 Americans who died from AIDS. He has received international and national awards from AIDS and gay rights organizations, religious conferences, state, and national health associations, and the legislatures of California and several other states. Cleve Jones lives in San Francisco, where he serves as a community organizer for Unite Here, an international union representing hotel, food service, casino, and restaurant workers. He is also an author, lecturer, and activist who travels the country talking about his life, the AIDS Quilt, and gay activism since his early days as a student at San Francisco State University.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-03-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.70
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-14
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
86:20
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Thompson, 1952-2016
Date of Interview
2010-03-08
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
115:58
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University where he studied journalism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University where he studied journalism.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Weathermen; Native Americans; Marijuana; Spirituality; Civil Rights Movement; Sexism; Women's Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Chicano Movement; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Environmental Movement; Racism; Voting Rights; Women's Suffrage; Healing; Beat Generation; Trust; Kent State; Vietnam Veterans; Anti-war Movement; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Weathermen; Native Americans; Marijuana; Spirituality; Civil Rights Movement; Sexism; Women's Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Chicano Movement; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Environmental Movement; Racism; Voting Rights; Women's Suffrage; Healing; Beat Generation; Trust; Kent State; Vietnam Veterans; Anti-war Movement; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society.</span>
Subject LCSH
Journalists; Photographers; Authors, American--20th century;Gay activists; Gay Students Coalition (San Francisco, Calif.);Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016--Interviews
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Title
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Interview with Mark Thompson
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Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Journalists; Photographers; Authors, American--20th century;Gay activists; Gay Students Coalition (San Francisco, Calif.);Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016--Interviews
Description
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Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University, where he studied journalism.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-03-08
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.168a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.168b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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115:58
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8fee1262dfe3b647d685daf091227a1c.mp3
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Arthur W. Chickering, 1927-
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Arthur W. Chickering is an author, scholar, and researcher. His research is in the field of student affairs and he is known for his contribution to student development theories. He previously taught at George Mason University and Goddard College. Chickering earned awards such as the Outstanding Service Award from the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the Distinguished Service Award from the Council for Independent Colleges. He received his B.A. in Modern Comparative Literature from Wesleyan University, M.A. degree in English Education from Harvard University, M.F.A degree in Creative Writing from Goddard College and Ph.D. in School Psychology from Columbia University. \n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":8403713,"3":[null,0],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,4995385],"15":"Arial","16":11,"26":400}">Dr. Arthur W. Chickering (1927-2020) was an author, scholar, and researcher. His research was in the field of student affairs and he is known for his contribution to student development theories. He previously taught at George Mason University and Goddard College. Chickering earned awards such as the Outstanding Service Award from the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the Distinguished Service Award from the Council for Independent Colleges. He received his B.A. in Modern Comparative Literature from Wesleyan University, M.A. degree in English Education from Harvard University, M.F.A degree in Creative Writing from Goddard College and Ph.D. in School Psychology from Columbia University. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Harvard University; Students; Black Panthers; Higher education; Existentialism; Racism; Baby boom generation; David Horowitz; Assassination of John F. Kennedy ; Robert F. Kennedy; George McGovern"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13689059},"12":0}">Harvard University; Students; Black Panthers; Higher education; Existentialism; Racism; Baby boom generation; David Horowitz; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy; George McGovern</span>
Date of Interview
2010-03-09
Duration
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91:09
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Subject LCSH
Authors; Scholars; Chickering, Arthur W., 1927--Interviews
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Copy/Paste below:
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Arthur Chickering
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 9 March 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:04):
Arthur Chickering, March 9th, 2010. Phone interview for the book on Boomers. In looking at your biography, I kind of broke it down into three parts at the very beginning. You started your college career at Goddard College as a psychology teacher from 1959 to 1965. Could you describe the students of that era? As the (19)50s came to an end, JFK became president, then of course he was assassinated, and LBJ expanded the war in Vietnam, what were the college students like from (19)59 to (19)65?
AC (00:00:50):
Well, I cannot really describe college students in general, you have to go to other people or other literature for that. Goddard was very small, when I went there in (19)59, there were 180 students.
SM (00:01:07):
Okay.
AC (00:01:08):
And it was a very unique institution based on progressive education principals, on Dewey and Kilpatrick, with whom then President Tim Piston had studied. And it had a work program, during January and February, students went away for a work term. They pursued independent studies. They had to apply for admission to the senior division after their first two years. There was a strong emphasis on independent studies. And so, my basic point is that because of its unique characteristics and because of its small size, it did grow over the years to about 1,000 students, but it attracted a very special kind of student, mainly from the Boston, Washington, DC corridor, the Northeast. So those two, and if you look at the way Goddard is described in education identity or in other of my publication, you will see that students are at the extreme left end, if you will, of the sort of political attitudinal continuum. And those were the students I knew best. When I did that project on student development in small colleges, which involved thirteen small colleges across the country from (19)65 to (19)69, then I encountered a wider range of students. But again, all those colleges had enrollment of fewer than 1,000 students, and they themselves were self-selected. We had evangelical and conservative protestant institution like Bryant College and Messiah College and Westmont College at that end of the continuum. And then there was Goddard and Shimer at the other end of that long continuum. And in the middle, there were the Western New England College, Oberlin, which is Quaker based, that is putting it moderate. So those are the students I grew up with if you will.
SM (00:04:07):
When you worked with that small number of students from (19)59 to (19)65, and then from (19)65 to (19)69 you worked around development in small colleges, and then you were also a visiting scholar at the American Council on Education, (19)65 to (19)70, did you notice any changes in those students in terms of their political attitudes, from (19)59 to (19)70, because of all the things that were happening in the world?
AC (00:04:44):
Well, again, I do not think I could make any generalizations. The impact on students of those diverse colleges was fairly substantial, and that is what education identity is anchored in. But that population of institutions certainly was not representative of the bulk of students in state colleges and universities across the country, which then were practically free. And of course, the community college movement hit the streets during the (19)60s, and that brought a whole new sector into higher education. And those students did not really bear any resemblance really to the undergraduates I was studying in these very small residential, highly self-selected. I mean they were not selective in the sense that they were meritocratic, but they were sharply defined image self-selectivity operated in a very powerful way. But again, the little colleges had a major impact on students. And I wrote about that. But in terms of knowing about the kinds of general changes that they are asked about across large research universities or publicly support institutions.
SM (00:06:46):
Well, the last question in this area is those other timeframes from (19)70 to (19)77 when you were the founding Vice President for Academic Affairs, and you were very poor in the founding of Empire College from that, in that period from (19)70 to (19)77, and then you were a distinguished professor at Memphis State University from (19)77 to (19)86. So, you saw not only students who were boomers, but you saw the beginning of the generation Xers coming in there at that time too. Is there anything you saw within the students during that timeframe that was different from the earlier timeframe?
AC (00:07:30):
Well, of course, during those years, I was heavily involved with adult learning. Two major things happened from (19)70 to (19)87. One of the most important, of course, was the [inaudible] of higher education with the Pell Grant and student loans and open admission. And so, the diversity among students, traditional college age students increased dramatically. And also, of course, there were sharp increases in the numbers of adult learners. And that is what led to the creation of the Council for Adults and Experiential Learning. The Empire State was created to respond to those adult learners. When I was at Memphis State running the Center for Higher Education, I had to see federally funded grants to help institute [inaudible] of institution respond to the educational needs of adult learners. So, during that time period, I was heavily involved with that particular sub sector, if you will, or subpopulation of college and university students, and not with traditional college age undergraduate. I went to George Mason in my role there as university professor. There I was much more directly involved with traditional college age graduates. But in those particular intervening years from (19)70 or (19)71 to (19)87, (19)88, I was heavily involved with adult learning.
SM (00:09:44):
Wow. What is interesting is when I look at some of these people like you and the other great student development theorists, how did you become who you are? What led you into higher education? I know you went on and got a psychology degree, but your background, who were your role models and your mentors? Who were the people that inspired you when you were young to go the direction that you went?
AC (00:10:14):
I have just finished an essay called Learning [inaudible] twenty pages long, which details I kind of educational [inaudible], if you will. And I can email you a copy of that if you want.
SM (00:10:35):
Okay.
AC (00:10:37):
But the short answer is that I majored in modern comparative literature at Wesleyan University and graduated in 1950. And I was headed for a doctoral degree in comparative literature, but I had to earn a living, so I went to the Harvard Graduate School of Education for their Master of Art Teaching English program. When I was teaching high school students during teaching, I got interested in the way they were processing problems with peers and with authority and with their parents and so forth. As we discussed Mill on the Floss and Silas Marner, which were two novels that were part of the high school curriculum at the time. And that led me... I found I was more interested in working with a student around those issues than in literary criticism. So, I discovered that there was such a thing in school psychology. So, I went to Columbia and got a PhD degree in school psych, and I worked as a school psychologist for three years. And then I was recruited to create a new teacher education department at Monmouth College in Long Branch, New Jersey. I have had a pretty [inaudible] experience at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, and I got fired for-for a variety of reasons, some of which are detailed in this essay that I can email you if you want. But that is what introduced me, that was my first year in higher education. And then I heard about this really interesting little college in Vermont Goddard College and my wife and I, and they had been living in the New York metropolitan area for 10 years or so. We had both grown up in Massachusetts, outside of Boston, and we loved skiing and hiking in Vermont. So, we moved to Goddard. At Goddard I really got introduced to the world of higher education. I was hired to work halftime as Gordon coordinator of evaluation of a fourth foundation supported six-year program in college curriculum organization. And so, I started gathering all that data, a lot of shared and education community. And that is how I migrated over into the world of higher education. Most of what I have built a career on in higher education I learned at Goddess from (19)59 to (19)65 and then with the project of student development in small colleges. The sort of educational principles in terms of learner, student centered learning and contract learning, independent studies, experiential learning, individualized education and the like were really all part of what Goddard was doing back in the early (19)60s when I was evaluating the program. So, I suppose my number one model and mentor was Tim Pitkin, then President of Godard College, but also Forests Davis is academic Vice President, George Becher, another senior faculty member. Those are the people... And I went there in (19)59, so I would have been 32 when I went there. So, I was just very young, naive, professional coming into the world of higher education and they had an enduring impact on my [inaudible] functioning.
SM (00:15:11):
Very good. How about your parents? How important were your parents when you first went off to college?
AC (00:15:20):
Well, my folks were divorced when I was nine. My mother was critical. She always wanted me to go to college. The expectation that I would go to college was built into my upbringing. Because I was getting into a lot of trouble in high school and she had to work during the depression and we were poor, she managed to get me a scholarship to Mount Hermann School in northern Massachusetts for my junior and senior year. And I was not a good student. I graduated 103rd in the class of 107. Nobody who knew me then, or none of my teachers certainly would have ever predicted that I would become a distinguished [inaudible] of all things. And when I graduated from Mount Hermann in 44, I was going to be drafted, and instead I enrolled it in Army Specialized Training Reserve program and was sent with 30 other kids from the University of New Hampshire. And I got kicked out of the University of New Hampshire that fall. Went back to live on to my mother, who was then working in Connecticut and went over to Wesleyan University and met with the admissions officer because I knew I would turn 18 in April, that April, after which I knew I would be drafted. So, I managed to... Well, when I met with him, I said, "Here's my situation." I did not tell him I had been kicked out of the University of New Hampshire, but I told him that I wanted to go to college for a semester before I went in the Army. And he said, "Well, send me your transcript and your test scores from Mount Herman and we will see." And at that time, of course, all the eligible men were in the army. But I said, "Well, you do not want to see that Mr. [inaudible]. If you see that you will never let me in here." And he said, "Well, we never let anybody in here without paying that information." I said, "Okay." So, I had it sent to him, he called me up at about 10 days and asked me to come in. And he said, "You're right. We have never let anyone into Wesleyan University with a record like yours." But he said, "I noticed your aptitude scores are very high, even though your grades are terrible, and your achievement test scores are lousy. How do you explain that?" And I said, "Well, I have never studied, I have never been interested in academic stuff. I like sports and parties and cards and so on." And I said, "I am ready to study. I know I need to establish a record before I go in the Army." I said, "I am going to be a commuting student and pay my full semester's tuition upfront. You set any grade point average you want me to meet, according to whatever test schedules you want, and if I do not meet it, you can keep my money and alcohol." So, he said, "Well, let me think about that." So, I left, and in four or five days, he called me up and asked me to come in and he said, "Okay, you got a deal. You give us your tuition; you need to have a B average on your midterm exam or you're out of here." And I said, "Okay." So, I went back and studied and ended up with a B plus average and finished this semester. Went off and spent a couple years in the Army. And of course, while I got back there was highly select institution there. They're only admitting valedictorians and [inaudible], but I went back and got into Wesleyan. And one of the critical things that happened when I went back into Wesleyan, I was back into playing cards and partying and into athletics when I was on probation the first two semesters. And then it came time to decide on a major. And I had enjoyed reading literature, particularly contemporary literature, but at that time, at Wesleyan, you can major in English or Spanish or French, but they all had this historical trajectory starting at the beginning and working their way up. So, I went in and talked with the dean and said, "Isn't there any way I can slice this stuff horizontally? I really enjoy reading contemporary literature and thinking about the relationship between the social context so forth and the literature." And he said, "Well, there is such a thing as comparative literature. We do not have that major here. But if you go talk with Brent Mann was head of French department and Juan Rural who head of Spanish, and Navi Brown, Norman O'Brien, who then was head of the classics department and Fred Miller, head of humanities, and if they all put together a series of courses and if they will write an evaluation for your comprehensive exam," which they did not have then, "You can have that kind of major." So, I walked out of his office at 10:30 and by five o'clock I had talked with all four of those people. And they were very enthusiastic really about doing that. Wesleyan was small. It only had 750 people and because of my gambling and so forth, I was fairly well known on campus. And this is the first sign of any intellectual interest they have seen out of me.
SM (00:22:44):
What were the students like that you were going to college within the late forties and fifties? What were they like?
AC (00:22:51):
Well, they were mainly, of course, it was a whole influx of veterans from (19)45, (19)46, (19)47. And so-
AC (00:23:03):
... (19)46, (19)47, and so at Wesleyan at that time, it probably was about 50 percent veterans and 50 percent typical graduate from high school. So, the veterans really had a significant influence on the college environment and college cultures during those... In fact, I joined Sigma Nu fraternity, which was started in the South and did not admit Black students. One of the things we did after we tried to change that policy with the national and they would not change. And so, we took Sigma Nu out, we got a loan from the local bank and borrowed enough money to buy the fraternity house and took Sigma Nu out of the national organization, so we were able to admit Black students.
SM (00:24:05):
Wow.
AC (00:24:07):
But the influx of veterans during those years, I mean, that was just a bubble. After the war got over and after all of us guys on the GI Bill and so forth went through the system, and everything tried to reverse its fist.
SM (00:24:25):
Were there many students of color on the campus at that time?
AC (00:24:29):
Not a lot. There were some and they were terrific.
SM (00:24:33):
You wrote The Education Identity, which is a classic book on student development of theory, and it's been a major guide for college administrators working with students for a long time. And particularly this came about at the time, in (19)69, when Boomers were in their heyday, because Boomers really started going to college in (19)64, (19)65. So, we are talking about that, particularly the early Boomers, which were the most activist and most involved. Were from (19)64 to about (19)74. How did you come up with the idea, and what was the inspiration to write this great book?
AC (00:25:18):
Well, I have read everything that was written really about, partly because of my background in school psychology. I read a lot of stuff about adolescent development, and there was not much literature about young adult development. There was not much literature on college’s impact on student learning and development. But I had a file of data from Goddard and from the project, and I had read, as I say, about everything that was to read. My main concern was to have an impact on the quality of undergraduate education. I was not really interested in complex theory development, so I wanted to write something that would be useful, and it would have an impact on practice. I knew from my psychological background that about the largest number of items anybody can remember and work with is five or six or seven. I was determined to try to organize my findings and my orientation toward student development and student learning in a parsimonious way that would fit into that number. As I looked at the literature and so forth, seven vectors as I called them, grew out of that combination of looking at the changes that occurred as the function of the data and the major conceptual framework that [inaudible] and Ted Newcomb and other leaders in that whole arena, for articulate. I was just lucky I happened to right at a level of abstraction that made those ideas pretty broadly accessible and applicable. But I worked hard to try to do that. And underneath each of those seven dimensions, seven vectors, there was possible to create three or four major subheadings and so forth, the kind of Christmas tree on which you could hang a variety of key ornaments.
SM (00:28:24):
Did you expect it to have the impact that it had, particularly on graduate school education, and why has it been able to withstand the test of time, not only for the Boomer generation, but for Generation X that followed, the Millennials that are in college now, and obviously for Generation Y, which are the really youngsters that will be coming up in 15 years. Your book is now going to be heading toward its fourth generation.
AC (00:28:54):
It is surprising. Well, I did not expect, in fact, I was very surprised when I got that American Council on Education book award that came out of the blue, because I thought that I was off the scale or off the street in terms of where a higher education was, A, and B, I had no idea that there was such a thing as a student personnel services profession or that there were graduate programs for students. I have been in these little, small colleges. I had never been in any institution that had the kind of array of student services and professionals that larger colleges and universities had. So, when they got picked up by those professionals, I was very surprised. I was frequently embarrassed when folks in Indiana or Michigan or Ohio or other graduate programs could come out and ask me to speak about the implications of my work for their graduate programs, because I did not know anything about those graduate programs.
SM (00:30:16):
You were big at Ohio State and I know that, did Phil Tripp?
AC (00:30:22):
No.
SM (00:30:23):
Yeah, he was Dr. Phil Tripp. He was the head of the program at Ohio State when I was there, along with my advisor, Dr. Roosevelt Johnson. They were unbelievable educators. One of the things that is interesting at that-
AC (00:30:38):
I am a little surprised.
SM (00:30:39):
Pardon?
AC (00:30:40):
I say all of that was a total surprise. And I think when Linda Reisser and I did the (19)95 or (19)96 revision, we were amazed at how all those basic conceptual frameworks still stood up when you looked at research on college impact on student learning and development that had occurred from the mid (19)60s to the early (19)90s that had been preferred that elaborated those. Of course, the gender differences and differences, the function of race and so forth, had emerged dramatically since the (19)60s.
SM (00:31:38):
I know on our master's exams at Ohio State in the summer of (19)72, the ones we prepared, we had to read 60 books in preparation along with never missing a class. Oh my goodness, you never knew where the questions were coming from, but one of them was on your book. And I remember writing a long essay, in that four-hour exam, writing at least one hour on your book. So it was a very important part of our education. Another thing that was happening during this time in the (19)60s and the early (19)70s was encounter, you probably heard about that. It was-
AC (00:32:15):
Oh yes.
SM (00:32:16):
What were your thoughts on encounter? Because I was in encounter classes at Ohio State and a lot of the purpose of encounter was we looked at the seven vectors and the ultimate being integrity at the very end and there was supporting each other. So, there was a combining of the encounter book and then combining of education identity. What was your thought about the whole concept of encounter during that time with college students?
AC (00:32:46):
Well, I think the whole encounter group movement with the National Training Lab, I have to go get another phone, so I am switching phones here because the battery is running down. Bear with me a sec. Can you hear me?
SM (00:33:01):
Yes, I can.
AC (00:33:01):
Still?
SM (00:33:01):
Yep, I can still hear you.
AC (00:33:08):
I thought that whole encounter group movement with National Training Lab was extremely helpful. It had a lot of extremists associated with it, but it did call attention to the internal life of people and led people to think about themselves in serious ways. Both my wife and I went to encounter group weekends, and I read a lot of that literature. And by and large, it seemed to me to be a very positive thing.
SM (00:33:58):
As a graduate student, it was intimidating at time. It was tough to be called, "You sound like a racist," in an encounter class because we had many African American students in our program. And so, it was a great learning experience in the end, but at times it was tough and you needed support. So, a lot of the things you were talking about, about development and theory and everything, a lot of the stuff in the encounter, it was what you were trying to say in your book.
AC (00:34:26):
Well, it raises that whole movement, raised all those existential issues. I mean, I think another way to think about your earlier question as to why those seven vectors seem to have stood up across generations is that they are really the basic existential areas for human development purposes. I mean, when now we have Goldman's work on emotional intelligence, all the issues of autonomy and interdependence, we have huge literature now on purpose and meaning. Integrity has been an issue in relationships. I mean, those issues do not go away just because there are sort of larger cultural forces that tend to have an impact on particular generation. I think the collision between all the new communication information, social interaction technology and these different vectors is going to be fascinating to observe.
SM (00:35:55):
I know what-
AC (00:35:58):
... and I am not close enough to it or young enough to really get involved with it in detail, but I have grandkids in their 20s and late teens, and they are in professional communication with each other and their high school friends. I went to South Africa with one of my grandsons, to Cape Town, and while we were there every night around 10 o'clock, he would get on, he was a computer guru, had his laptop with him. He would get on his laptop and be interacting with his girlfriend and with his high school friends back here in Vermont. At first, I was put off by that and I thought, well, why cannot you let go of that for a little while? But then as I started about eavesdropping on what he was doing, I realized that he was processing our experiences in the township and with the young people he was meeting with all the race and social and economic dynamics there in Cape Town in South Africa we were encountering. But anyway, the whole interaction and the ways in which current young people and future young people are going to work through those basic human development issues in the context of these new technology and media, I think, are going to be fascinating to try to understand.
SM (00:37:54):
That is excellent. One of the most important qualities that we try to instill in students is by the time they graduate, that all students have a sense of self-esteem, of comfortableness with who they are as human beings, and obviously, that is one of the goals of integrity in your seventh vector. I will never forget at Ohio State, I really felt comfortable after my years there because I really got what the seventh vector was all about. It is almost like a person standing up in front of an audience, and I said this to students, through my 30 years in higher ed, that these people who come and speak about certain issues really have integrity, whether you like their views or not, because they stand for something, they are willing to be in front of people, to give a... So thus, they have integrity because they are willing to be confronted as well. But the critics of the (19)60s generation, the Boomers, oftentimes attack the Boomers as being one, oh, this self-esteem business is a bunch of baloney. Why do we have to constantly build these people up? It is a criticism that is often been leveled that the era that they do not like, because many critics, political critics in particular, had looked at the (19)60s and the early (19)70s through mid (19)70s as a time when the divorce rate was at an all-time high, the lack of respect for authority, the victim culture started to come about, drugs, sexual revolution, a sense of irresponsibility. "I want it now" type of an attitude without thinking that you have to pay for these things down the road. The question I am asking is what do you think of those people that criticize basically this whole concept of self-esteem and this generation of Boomers that grew up during the (19)60s and (19)70s and putting the blame on them for the issues, the problems, we had today?
AC (00:40:06):
Well, one reflexive reaction I have is that people who have to support their own self-esteem by knocking others are not in very good shape. I think that that variable has been demonstrated to be critical for career success, for personal mental health. We have the whole positive psychology movement now. The [inaudible] and others have been so instrumental in putting on our screen. We have fortunately migrated away from the mental illness deficit model of thinking about people, and so I think it is highly unfortunate. Now, I think it is important to recognize that narcissism is not very healthy. This is one of the dynamics that occur during that sensitivity training era that you refer to that, if your only focus is on yourself and what is important to you and what makes you feel good and so on, that is pretty unhealthy. But self-esteem linked to purpose and identification, I mean with something larger than yourself, those two things need to go together. An exclusive focus on self can be pretty dysfunctional both for the person and for society, and that is why all the issues of purpose and meaning are important. But you do not have to engage with serious issues of purpose if you feel you are incompetent and inadequate, cannot function with other people, nobody ever pays attention to what you think or what you do, or you are irrelevant to things. You cannot have any impact on anything. So, when those attitudes and feelings are dominant, then there is no way you can invest yourself heavily in something larger than those preoccupations and your own immediate self-interest.
SM (00:43:18):
That is beautiful. Oh, I can see why you are so great at writing because you are able to put your words and have so much meaning there. You obviously raised... You have grandkids, so you had kids. Did you have a generation gap with your children over issues?
AC (00:43:48):
I do not think so. We are very lucky. We have a son and four daughters. They are all in their 50s now. They all love each other, they all support each other. They all love us and support us. And as we get into our 80s, they do so in increasing the specific ways. I mean the most difficult dynamic for me particularly, not so much for my wife, was with our oldest child, our son Allen. We have a son and three daughters. So, his movement through adolescence and into young adulthood was complicated in a variety of ways. Partly, I think because he took very seriously the attitudes and values and social concerns that Jo and I actively tried to address and live in terms of. He felt he had to go further and do more. So, he lived a life of intentional poverty for a while, and was draft resistor or not a draft resistor, but tax resistance.
SM (00:45:31):
Hold that point. I want to just turn my tape. Go right ahead.
AC (00:45:41):
And he was very interested in teaching, learning, and educational issues. But because of my status in the world of our education, but he was going up and going to college, trying to find his way into higher education. He spent six months at Empire-
AC (00:46:03):
... Empire education. He spent six months at Empire State, but it was just created yet. Then he went to University of Wisconsin at Green Bay when it was trying to be [inaudible] U, and finally ended up at the Evergreen State College. His whole relationship with the world of education and higher education was complicated by my status. As often occurs, I guess we had issues around money and stuff like that. So, we had a... I do not know, pick your number, maybe five, eight, 10-year period between his graduation from high school and getting through Evergreen and so forth that were very difficult for him, and challenging for Joe and me to know how to deal with it. Fortunately, we somehow ended of loving each other and supportive of each other. We own a house in Olympia, Washington where he stayed since he graduated from Evergreen, and I have a wonderful relationship. The girls are very supportive of him and us, and they have always had a good relationship with my wife, Joe, and me, and wonderful relationships with each other.
SM (00:47:37):
Good.
AC (00:47:37):
So, we are very lucky to have such a wonderful nuclear family, if you will.
SM (00:47:47):
Because I know that generation gap did tear a lot of families apart. The Boomer generation, my generation, of course, I looked at heroes and I never thought of my parents, although I do now as I have gotten older as my real heroes. But a lot of the heroes of the Boomers were leaders, political leaders, whether it be Dr. King or Bobby Kennedy or someone else, John Kennedy. They looked up to heroes. Whereas I have noticed today, Millennials very rarely if ever say any political leader of any kind, it could be a teacher, it could be a parent, it could be an uncle, it could be a minister. But very rarely any public figures, and I have even noticed in Generation X, the generation that followed Boomers, that there were very few political leaders or national leaders. The Boomers seemed to have them. What made Boomers so different than these others with respect to the people they looked up to?
AC (00:48:48):
Oh, well, I think the generation that followed the Boomers had a lot of anti-models. Nixon, I mean, whether you look at politics and all the scandals and self-interest and so forth, politics, whether you look at corporate sector and all the greed, and [inaudible] there, whether you look at the international domain and all the of religious and inter- tribal and inter-ethnic conflict, it was very hard to see people functioning in very admirable ways that you would want to identify with. I think that is why you had the whole shift of political and social activism to a much more local level. They were meeting people in their communities and in their states and so forth who they could know and who had a lot of integrity and who were putting their money where their mouth was and walking their talk, and all that, those bumper sticker ideas. So, the context, particularly I think with the Reaganism, is with the whole conservative movement that started with Reagan, had shifted the focus away from social concerns, about the environment, about race, about peace, away from those organizing issues that dominated the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Away from that, the self-interest and capitalism run amongst it. It was a very uninspiring and disillusioning social context to be growing up in.
SM (00:51:21):
What is interesting is that one of the characteristics of Boomers is that they do not trust because they saw a lot of leaders lie to them, whether it be Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, be it Watergate with Richard Nixon, even there was questions about President Kennedy and whether he had some links to the Diem overthrow in Vietnam, if you were pretty adept at keeping track of things, even President Eisenhower in (19)59 lied about the U-2 incident and of course, McNamara and the numbers. So, a lot of the Boomers just did not trust anybody in position of responsibility, whether it be a President of the United States, a Congressman, a Senator, a minister, a rabbi, a priest, a corporate leader, anyone. And president of a university and administrators. But in the end, they looked at the leaders as their heroes, but then they did not trust them. Do you think that is one of the qualities of the Boomer generation, that they are not a very trusting generation in your experiences with them?
AC (00:52:33):
Well, I had a lot of experiences with them, but I think as you kick off that litany, they had good reasons to not trust people. I think one of the things that made Obama an appealing was that, and particularly young people felt here was a guy who walked the talk, who could be trusted, and whose background was untarnished, and who we could put some faith in. Unfortunately, the political dynamics now are such that he is thought in politics as usual, and I think maintaining that hope and trust that he ignited is very difficult.
SM (00:53:40):
When you look at the Boomer generation, again, it is those people born between (19)46 and (19)64, and I know that many of the people born between (19)40, (19)41, and (19)46 are a little sensitive because a lot of them are linked to the Boomers, in many ways. In fact, many of the leaders of the anti-war movement were the age of graduate students. So, they were really in the (19)41, (19)42, (19)43 years. So, there is a link there, but when you look at some of these events, I would like your response to them, because these are the events that the Boomers were involved in when they were young in the (19)60s and through the mid (19)70s. Just your thoughts on the students who were going South for voter registration, the Freedom Summer, and the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64 and (19)65, and obviously the anti-war movement and the students involved in civil rights and the protests, and then you had the groups like Students for Democratic Society and the Young Americans for Freedom, and the Black Power students. These were all part of those (19)60s, and of course, the students that were involved, that persuaded President Kennedy at the University of Michigan to consider the Peace Corps. Then I am going to list some more later on, but your thoughts on those experiences of students and how important they were, and just your thoughts.
AC (00:55:12):
Well, I think one of the major points to recognize is that if you look across the population of college and university students during those years, only five to 15 percent of the students, even at the most activist campuses like Berkeley, Michigan, Kent State, so forth, only five to 15 percent of the students were really active and involved. When you look at the research on their background, by and large, their parents were activists during the Depression, during the (19)40s and so forth. But for me, the important point about that is that it demonstrates how a small, active, committed, energetic group of people can define the conversation and present the issue, can enable the creation of things like the Peace Corps. As Margaret Mead said, never underestimate the ability of one person or a small group of persons to change the world. But I think it is important to keep that in mind, and it is important to keep that in mind now as we confront the horrendous global problems that are rushing toward us in terms of global warming and peak oil, and all those issues. Unfortunately, I think what happened with the disillusion that sat in that you had referred to is that we forgot that taking on a small number of people who were willing to take on those issues could really have an impact. Obviously, those set of subcultures created context where people with similar concerns could put their time and energy and emotion and get invested in, and that is what higher education ought to be about in relation to our general culture. It ought to be about helping persons with in fact, on this self-esteem, purpose issue, helping persons connect their own particular attitudes and values, conservative or liberal, but with particular social issues that they can invest themselves in, at the same time they're raising a family and earning a living and so on.
SM (00:58:48):
During the (19)60s, obviously more minority students were on college campuses than ever before. That is so important. More women were admitted into medical schools and to law schools, and some all-male schools became co-ed. So those were important developments. But you saw in the late (19)60s something that upset a lot of people that cared about coming together as a nation. That was the Black Power Movement, which was in some respects, the Black Panthers, that historic scene of Stokely Carmichael challenging Dr. King in (19)67 and telling him that his time had passed. Then in (19)65 or (19)64, the debate between Malcolm X and Bayard Rustin where he said the very same thing, the non-violent protests, its time has passed. So, what you saw at Kent State University and the protests in 1970 was an all-white protest against the Vietnam War with African American students and students of color concentrating on the Civil Rights Movement and Black Power. Did that upset you at all when you were in college, that you saw the Dr. Kings, you saw affirmative action coming in strong into the universities, and then all of a sudden you had the Black Power, which started a separatist movement again of dividing people? Just your thoughts on that.
AC (01:00:15):
Well, whenever you have a hugely important social issue that has a direct impact on individuals, specifically those who are subject to the injustice and unfairness and prejudices, it is very hard to address that type of thing without having both significant diversity within the movements that are addressing it and extremes. So that is part of I think the way group processes and social dynamics work. I mean, that is what we are experiencing now with the Muslims.
SM (01:01:16):
Yes. I have a question later on that, yes.
AC (01:01:19):
And the extremists tend to drive, for better or worse, the extremist minority tends to drive the conversation, tends to drive the political responses. It is very hard for moderates, if you will, to know how to function within those concepts. we see the polarization within our own Congress, our Senate and Representatives now are between the Democrats as Republicans, are being driven wider and wider apart. So, you have really good moderates like Senator Bayh and others who say, "Well, I guess this is not the way I want to work now." I do not know how to combat that fundamental social dynamic other than increasing education, if you will, increasing everybody's awareness and sensitivity to these dynamics and increasing their capacity to think in more complex ways about the issues. Unfortunately, that is where higher education is failing us, I think.
SM (01:03:04):
Yeah, and I mean, you had right on target because we did a conference on Islam just before I left. It was packed, yet we had criticism from the Jewish community for even doing it. Would you say the Muslim students are the African American students of the (19)50s? Which would you compare them to what was going on with African American students in the (19)50s?
AC (01:03:29):
Oh, first I should say, I do not know. I do not know the data and I do not know from personal experience. Having said that, I think the issue of racism was much more broadly based and widespread and affected many, many more people in the United States than the religious prejudices that are operative now, with regard to Muslims. I think a lot of the dynamics are similar, the magnitude of the problem and the numbers of people affected, they were dramatically different. On a global scale, I think it is a much more serious issue obviously with... We did not have Black suicide bombers. We did not have to worry about African Americans or other Blacks from the Caribbean getting the nuclear bombs to blow the rest of us away. So, the issues of scale and potential danger are hugely different.
SM (01:05:01):
What are your thoughts on of course, in the early (19)70s, the Black Studies programs were under a lot of criticism when they were developed, and I was directly involved in those, actually did an independent study on it when I was at Ohio State. But with the development of the Women's Studies, Native American Studies, Black Studies, Environmental Studies, Asian Studies, Gay and Lesbian Studies, Chicano Studies, is that good for a university? Because the critics like David Horowitz and Charles Murray and others, and Phyllis Schlafly say that this is nothing but the troublemakers of the (19)60s now controlling universities of today. They have been doing so since the (19)90s, according to these individuals, that we have a politically correct campus. That just is not obvious. Again, just your thoughts and the development of all these studies programs and the criticisms of political correctness on university campuses, particularly with our professors.
AC (01:06:04):
I think those criticisms are very far-fetched. In the first place, it would be much better from my point of view if the criticism was more accurate. That is to say if issues having to do with racism, with gender equality, with hot button topics like abortion or so on were dealt with throughout the curriculum, but that does not happen. So, in the absence of that, I think it is extremely important and useful to have centers, institutes, whatever for the organization form they take to keep these issues alive, and where students and faculty and others learn about them, but with which they can identify and where they can get involved. If you look at [inaudible], I mean both criticisms have ignore the fact that higher education is dominated now by a market mentality that emphasizes professional and occupational preparation. That has in many colleges and universities driven a whole series of policies and practices with regard to consumers, students and parents and so forth, that are a direct reflection of the worst of our capitalistic practices.
SM (01:08:11):
That is amazing that you are saying that. I had this down as my last question. This is not my last question because we have got quite a few more, but I got to read this because you hit a button here that was going to be my last question to you. This was, do you believe today's universities are so driven by money, for example, just about everything is linked to fundraising, including out of classroom activities like lectures, forums, debates, conferences, cultural events, that quality out-of-classroom experiences are being denied, eliminated, or allowed with a price tag to the detriment of quality educational experience for students? And i.e., I say, top administration wants to dictate what can or cannot happen, only if it means it can be linked to a fundraising effort during tough economic times.
SM (01:09:03):
The fundraising effort during tough economic times, did you feel that is happening?
AC (01:09:08):
Oh, of course. It is happening dramatically, and I am going to have to stop in a bit here. I think what has happened is that, I did the speech at Florida State. I [inaudible] also email you if you want. That addresses a bunch of these problems. And higher education for years was seen as the public good, and that is why we had all state support, why you could go to the California system or New York system, virtually at very little cost. Now it has seen as a private benefit. State support now is, last numbers I saw for public institutions, is in the order of 20 or 25 to 30 or 35 percent. And as state support has dropped, states have authorized tuition increases to cover the cost. We are moving back into a meritocratic, aristocratic orientation for higher education. And that major shift in the last 10 or 20 years is what has driven this whole mentality that you're talking about. So higher education is not something that is seen as a politically important and socially important institution as a public good. And so consequently, our focus is more and more for professional vocational preparation and dollars drive the system.
SM (01:11:06):
We have got 15 more minutes if that is okay. Still there?
AC (01:11:13):
What? Say again.
SM (01:11:13):
We have 15 more minutes. Is that okay? Because that is an hour and a half.
AC (01:11:17):
Okay.
SM (01:11:18):
Okay, great. I am glad I got that question in. Kent State University in 1970 and Jackson State was certainly a monumental nightmare for the Boomer generation. Where were you when you heard about it and what do you think the impact of that day, May 4th and two weeks later when two African American students were killed, what impact did that have on not only the generation but on higher education?
AC (01:11:56):
I just have to say I do not know. I remember when Kennedy was shot, but I do not remember where I was when I got that news. Just thinking off the top of my head, I do not know that those two horrendous events had a major distinctive impact because they were part of the whole continuum of dramatic events and activities that were going on with all the sit-ins and demonstrations. They were an unfortunate, tragic extension of that whole process. So, in and of themselves, they amplified that, but I do not think had any particular distinctive impact.
SM (01:13:00):
Well, in your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
AC (01:13:07):
When did the (19)60s begin and end?
SM (01:13:09):
Yes.
AC (01:13:19):
Well, I think it began, the early (19)60s for me and my family and the Goddard community were dominated by Cold War issues and the atomic bomb issue. And when Gorbachev came to power and that whole dynamic, if you will, started to get cooled out, I think that allowed us to turn our attention to other issues like the environment, race and other major social issues. So, for me, I think the dropping away of the Cold War was a major variable in freeing us up to address other issues, economically, politically, socially.
SM (01:14:39):
And when do you feel it ended?
AC (01:14:42):
With Reagan's election.
SM (01:14:45):
Good. That is a good point. I personally felt that when streaking started on the college campuses in (19)73, I knew it was over. If you remember, that happened in the fall of (19)73.
AC (01:15:00):
Well, you have all these wonderful details.
SM (01:15:05):
Yeah, this is your interview, but-
AC (01:15:07):
It is going to be an interesting book.
SM (01:15:10):
Yeah. The AIDS crisis was obviously a very important thing in the (19)80s and on college campuses, the AIDS quilt. There was a lot of sensitivity toward that particular issue and gay and lesbian students obviously came to the forefront at that particular time. Just your thoughts on the impact that the AIDS crisis had on the higher education community.
AC (01:15:38):
Well, it is certainly pulled out the whole sexual freedom that burst onto the scene in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, with the drugs, drink and sex.
SM (01:16:02):
Right.
AC (01:16:12):
But it is also in a more healthy way, helped us be more aware of and thoughtful about the whole issue of homosexuality, particularly among men. And I think that was a good thing.
SM (01:16:32):
Where did the universities fail in the (19)60s and the (19)70s? Are you aware, as obviously as a college administrator has experienced and a professor who has experienced so much, there has been little talk about the loss of a lot of the great professionals in student affairs who just burned out. And I have even read stories of some people became sick, some who died even because they could no longer take the students of the (19)60s and early (19)70s because many of the students had this philosophy, well, if you give into these issues and I will just make another 10. And so there was no, oftentimes criticism of the Boomers is that they were never satisfied even when administrations tried to satisfy them. Just your thoughts of, and certainly Kent State was an example of presidential failure, the President being away, and some of the other examples. Just your perceptions of the universities in the (19)60s. And when I say (19)60s, I mean right up to about (19)73, where did they fail and where did they succeed?
AC (01:17:49):
Well, I really cannot respond to that question. I was drowning, from (19)71 to (19)77, I was working 70 or 80 hours a week creating Empire State College. As I said earlier, I was focused on adult learners. And I knew about the University Without Walls movement because it started at [inaudible]. Empire State was associated with that, but I was really not tuned into the rest of the world of higher education.
SM (01:18:37):
Okay. One of the main questions I have asked beyond the question of trust is the question of healing. And everybody has given me a lot of different responses. I took a group of students to Washington, DC when I was working at the University at Westchester. And the students came up with this question because they had seen a film on 1968, and they wanted to ask Senator Muskie this question because they thought that they had gotten the perception that we were close to a second civil war in 1968 with all the divisions. And basically, I am going to read it here, if I can find it. Let us see if I can find, probably not going to be able appointed here. I think the basic thrust was, oh, here it is. Do you feel bloomers are still having a problem with healing due to the extreme divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, the divisions between black and white, the divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticized it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? Do you feel the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the following statement true? Time heals all wounds. And so, they asked Senator Muskie that question because of 1968 and his response, he did not even respond in the way we thought. He said we had not healed since the Civil War and went on to give a lecture on why we had not healed since the Civil War. But your thoughts on whether you think the Boomer generation has issues. Well, I know they do not wear it on their sleeve as some people said, but do you think there are some of the divisions and think people care enough that they really have not healed since those times?
AC (01:20:36):
Well, I am no social historian, but certainly if you look at what is going on politically, we have become, and if you listen to seasoned legislators like [inaudible] and others, the whole culture of Congress in the Senate and the House has changed so that it has become more divisive, more acrimonious, less civil, less collaborative, and our whole culture has become divided. And I think the media, particularly the blogs and social technology media, which give a loud voice to a very small number of people. And so, you have extreme points of view that yes, a level of visibility and attention that unwarranted both by the substance of the basis for their comments and also by their numbers, helped drive these extremes seriously.
SM (01:22:15):
If you were to give a term to the Boomer Generation, a lot of people say they are the Vietnam generation. Some say they are the Woodstock Generation or the protest generation or the movement generation. What if you were to give them a title, what would it be?
AC (01:22:45):
Transition, I guess.
SM (01:22:47):
Transition generation? Do you think that the universities today did not learn from the student activists of the (19)60s and they are afraid of a return of activism? The kind of activism we are seeing in California right now with students protesting against the tuition increases, and there is a fledgling movement against the war in Afghanistan and other issues. But are they afraid of a return?
AC (01:23:17):
Well, I do not know about afraid of a return, but universities are typically afraid of vigorous activism. Anything that challenges authority or threatens the status quo is scary. And when it gets mobilized, and again, now if it gets mobilized by extremists, it make sense to be concerned.
SM (01:23:46):
Right. When the best history books are written, sociology books on the legacy of the Boomer Generation, that is those born between (19)46 and (19)64, what do you think the history books, books on higher ed, sociology books will say about this Boomer Generation?
AC (01:24:06):
They brought a whole range of ideals that went unrealized.
SM (01:24:20):
Good point. Now, I had this one little segment here, but we may go over. You have to finish right at 1:30?
AC (01:24:26):
Well, I need to stop in five or 10 minutes, yeah.
SM (01:24:31):
Okay. What we will do is real fast here is I am just going to give some names. Some of them were the heroes of the generation, and just your thoughts on these individuals that were all well-known during the timeframe. Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda.
AC (01:24:52):
Oh, they were good models.
SM (01:24:55):
John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy.
AC (01:24:58):
They were fabulous example, each. Kennedy was flawed by his womanizing some, John. Jack, was. Bobby, in a way was cleaner, but also very aggressive, unbalanced, wonderful.
SM (01:25:24):
How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern?
AC (01:25:28):
They were my heroes.
SM (01:25:30):
You liked them both?
AC (01:25:31):
Yes.
SM (01:25:32):
How about Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X?
AC (01:25:37):
Well, certainly Martin Luther King is everybody's hero. Malcolm X played a major important role, I think, in strengthening Black pride and Black activists.
SM (01:25:53):
Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew?
AC (01:25:58):
Nixon got what he deserved, and Agnew should have been more severely chastised.
SM (01:26:10):
LBJ and Hubert Humphrey?
AC (01:26:13):
Oh, well, they were both wonderful populists and excellent contributors to the public good.
SM (01:26:23):
Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin?
AC (01:26:27):
I do not know enough. I recognize the names, but I do not know enough of what actually impact they might have had to make a comment.
SM (01:26:37):
Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, the women leaders?
AC (01:26:43):
Well, Friedan and Steinem certainly put the whole gender issues on the public screen, and Bella Abzug was a wonderful feminist political leader.
SM (01:26:58):
Dwight Eisenhower and Gerald Ford?
AC (01:27:03):
Well, they were establishment politicians that did not have... Well, I was going to say, have any enduring legacy. Of course, we have Eisenhower to thank for our national highway system, which has become a very unfortunate kind of phenomenon in the degree to which it has totally undercut investment in public transportation.
SM (01:27:35):
Robert Reagan and Jimmy Carter?
AC (01:27:36):
Well, as I have said, I think Reagan's conservatism caused major problems. Jimmy Carter, unfortunately, was not a very effective president, but has been a wonderful post-president the person.
SM (01:27:59):
How about George Bush senior and Bill Clinton?
AC (01:28:05):
Well, Bush senior was thought of a modest, mediocre President. Clinton was one of our most effective politicians who unfortunately was incapacitated by his sexuality.
SM (01:28:29):
1968?
AC (01:28:32):
1968?
SM (01:28:34):
The year.
AC (01:28:39):
I do not know. I do not have anything I identify with [inaudible].
SM (01:28:42):
Was the year of the assassinations and the conventions.
AC (01:28:45):
Ph, okay. So sorry.
SM (01:28:48):
The Black Panthers, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, and Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, that group?
AC (01:29:00):
Well, those extreme activist for the Black Power, Black is Beautiful orientation were probably necessary and helpful.
SM (01:29:19):
Dr. Benjamin Spock and Daniel and Philip Berrigan.
AC (01:29:24):
Two very different people. We raised our kids on Spock and I admired Berrigan for his activism.
SM (01:29:33):
How about Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers?
AC (01:29:36):
Wonderful, wonderful example of conscientious activism.
SM (01:29:46):
Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali.
AC (01:29:50):
Well, two wonderful Black athletes who broke a lot of ground, especially Jackie Robinson.
SM (01:29:57):
How about the original seven astronauts?
AC (01:30:02):
Well, I think on balance, going to the moon was a good thing, although I do not place a high value on our investments in space exploration.
SM (01:30:15):
Robert McNamara?
AC (01:30:19):
Well, bringing a General Motors mentality to the Defense Department I do not think was very helpful.
SM (01:30:31):
Watergate?
AC (01:30:34):
Well, it was a wonderful demonstration. In its aftermath, one way it represented the extreme of political self-interest in Woodward and Bernstein revelations, turned out to be a wonderful example of how investigative reporting and democratic processes [inaudible].
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Arthur Chickering
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Chickering, Arthur W., 1927- ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Authors; Scholars; Chickering, Arthur W., 1927--Interviews
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Dr. Arthur W. Chickering is an author, scholar, and researcher. His research is in the field of student affairs and he is known for his contribution to student development theories. He previously taught at George Mason University and Goddard College. Chickering earned awards such as the Outstanding Service Award from the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the Distinguished Service Award from the Council for Independent Colleges. He received his B.A. in Modern Comparative Literature from Wesleyan University, M.A. degree in English Education from Harvard University, M.F.A degree in Creative Writing from Goddard College and Ph.D. in School Psychology from Columbia University.
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2010-03-09
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.39
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McKiernan Interviews
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91:09
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Date of Interview
2010-03-10
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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H. Bruce (Howard Bruce) Franklin, 1934-
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Bruce H. Franklin is an American cultural historian and scholar. He has received top awards in American Studies, science fiction, prison literature, and marine ecology. Franklin has written and edited nineteen books, three hundred professional articles, and has participated in several film productions. He was awarded the Pearson-Bode Prize for lifetime achievement in American Studies. Franklin currently is the Professor of English and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey. He received his Bachelor's degree from Amherst College and his Ph.D. from Stanford University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">H. Bruce Franklin is an American cultural historian and scholar. He has received top awards in American Studies, science fiction, prison literature, and marine ecology. Franklin has written and edited nineteen books, three hundred professional articles, and has participated in several film productions. He was awarded the Pearson-Bode Prize for lifetime achievement in American Studies. Franklin currently is the Professor of English and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey. He received his Bachelor's degree from Amherst College and his Ph.D. from Stanford University.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Propaganda; Anti-war movement; Baby boom generation; WW II; Vietnam War; Richard Nixon; Rock music; Drug culture; Liberation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Propaganda; Anti-war movement; Baby boom generation; WW II; Vietnam War; Richard Nixon; Rock music; Drug culture; Liberation.</span>
Duration
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46:50
Subject LCSH
Historians; Authors, American--20th century College teachers; Rutgers University; Franklin, H. Bruce (Howard Bruce), 1934--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Bruce Franklin
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 10 March 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM:
[inaudible] again, thanks a lot for agreeing to participate in my book project. The first question I want to ask you is I want to go into detail on what happened to you at Stanford. But what I do not know about you is your parents, your background. Who were your role models and inspirations before you went into the military? Because the material that I read is after that. So how did you become who you are?
BF:
Well, I grew up in Brooklyn. You know that much, right?
SM:
Yep.
BF:
And my father had six months of high school [inaudible]. And we lived in a working class neighborhood. Well, I was born, actually, in Bedford-Stuyvesant, and then my parents [inaudible]... We were also talking about Engels. And as far as the work that I do, I would say that Engels' writing is probably more influential, directly influential, on my thinking than Marx's writings, especially Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State, and Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. I think those are very powerful and important analyses today. Lenin, I think [inaudible] radical opus of communications. But I kind of see Lenin's writings as falling into two categories. One, his analysis of imperialism, which I think is still very, very helpful and insightful. And so, his [inaudible] Marx with 19th century capitalism, the key text was Lenin's Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, in which he describes the political economy which was dominant in the world during the first couple decades of the 20th century and on through the period of [inaudible] the mid-1970s. But in that period, colonialism as a system was destroyed. And this is what makes the Vietnam revolution so important in 20th and 21st century history, because it was cutting-edge. [inaudible] 1945 and 1949, a quarter of the world's population gained national independence from colonialism. In (19)49, in the Communist revolution, another quarter of the world's population was breaking away from [inaudible] decades of the 20th century. The world that we have (19)75 to 2010 is a different form of imperialism from what Lenin was writing about, although he saw finance capital becoming primary in the system. So that pretty far-sighted to think. The other part of Lenin's writings really revolve around the question of how to do it, or as he put it, what is to be done? And I think that the relevance of that writing in the post-Soviet period has got a whole string of question marks after it. It is not a simple question. I do not think these labels are very helpful anymore. I think that my books and articles speak for themselves. I have developed my own theoretical constructs, which are there in the book. My main work is as a cultural historian. So although if you look at ... If you look at Warstar's... Although I do feel [inaudible] with the relationship between what Marx called base and superstructure of [inaudible] the industry, what Eisenhower had called the-
SM:
[inaudible]
BF:
...military-industrial complex [inaudible] a Marxist. To deal with that [inaudible] the main things I am focusing on really are consciousness issues [inaudible] cultural superstructure. And I do not think you will find much in Marx's or Engel's or Lenin's [inaudible] cultural superstructure. If anything, if there was one figure that was most influential on my approach to this, originally was Christopher Caudwell, C-A-U-D-W [inaudible], who himself was a Marxist and who died defending the Spanish popular government [inaudible]. I think Horowitz is such a fool. He and these other people who are whining about not [inaudible] themselves [inaudible] members of the faculty [inaudible]. The fact is that their work cannot withstand critical scrutiny. [inaudible] It is not well-researched. It is not [inaudible] by any standards. It is just foaming-at-the-mouth propaganda.
SM:
One of the first questions that I ask on the general area of questioning is the critics of the (19)60s generation blame a lot of the issues in the world today, the problems we have in this country, back to the boomers, the people that were either protesting the war, the 15 percent of the activists, who just could be about as many as 20, 25 million, and the breakdown of the family, the divorce rate, the drug culture, the sexual revolution, the beginning of the -isms, the pointing fingers toward other people for people's problems... And your thought on that kind of... And then secondly, because you have talked about the fact that small numbers of people can really make a difference in this world... And obviously, one of the critics of the (19)60s generation, or the boomers and the activists, is that only 15 percent were ever involved in any part of activism. So they use it as a negative as opposed to a positive, whereas 85 percent were just living their lives normally. I believe subconsciously everyone was affected. I do not care who you were. But how do you respond to people who generalize, again, that this period... And of course, this was when the Democratic Party was falling apart, too. And even Barney Frank wrote a book speaking frankly, where he states that the Democratic Party needs to separate itself from the war people, the anti-war, McGovern people, if it wants to survive as a party. So just your thoughts... And that was in (19)72 and-
BF:
The Democratic Party did separate itself from McGovern. That is what happened.
SM:
[inaudible]-
BF:
Because the people [inaudible] Democratic Party decided they would rather lose the election than lose their party. So they pulled the rug out from under him. The main thing is, who was right, who was wrong, the anti-war movement, or the people who got us into that war and kept us into that war and have kept us into war ever since? The people against the war were right. And in fact, it would be nice if the consciousness had not been largely erased, thus allowing this situation that we are presently in.
Here is the way I look at it, putting my life in [inaudible] context. And it must have been [inaudible] 15 or 16 in 1945. I was riding around in Brooklyn. I was 11 years old, riding around in Brooklyn in the back of a pickup truck with a bunch of other kids. And we are all screaming, "Peace, peace. The war is over." The sidewalks are thronged with people, and everybody is yelling, "Peace, peace." And we really believed that we were going to spend the rest of our lives in a world without war, because the fascists and Nazis had been defeated, the militarists had been defeated. Democracies [inaudible]. And the fact of the matter is that I have spent almost the entire rest of my life in a nation that has been almost continually in a state of war. And in fact, while we were celebrating that, the Truman administration was making a deal with France to transport an invasion army to Vietnam, and arm that invasion army, an invasion army consisting of the largest [inaudible] Nazi soldiers.
SM:
Amazing. I read that. Yeah.
BF:
Not that we knew what was going on, which is why, I think, people are cynical, people believe you cannot trust the government. People believe the government lies to us and manipulates us, because the government's run in the interests of a few. It is pretty obvious.
SM:
Are you disappointed? You mentioned nine years old when you were at Stanford ... or I mean, excuse me, when you were in college. The boomers were a lot younger. But I know it is very difficult to generalize about 78 million people, but they have become the leaders. They have become the head of corporations. They run the world now, really, and all of the Generation X-ers who had followed them, their sons and daughters. How do you feel about this generally, this boomer generation? How do you feel about the 15 percent who were activists? And as they got older, did they remain activists? How many lived their ideals?
BF:
A lot did. There is a whole website [inaudible]. Stanford had [inaudible] the Stanford [inaudible]. And it had a website and archives [inaudible]. And I have [inaudible] because most of the people seemed to me to lead engaged lives, very active in their communities. So the idea that everybody who was active just gave up... corporations [inaudible]... I mean, I guess this is where my analysis and your analysis maybe part ways pretty dramatically, is I do not think of the generation as a very useful category-
SM:
I have heard that from other people. Yeah.
BF:
...because [inaudible] a big chunk of time ... I have three kids who are boomers. And they were born in (19)56, (19)58 and (19)63. So I do not think of them ... My wife and I were talking about this relationship [inaudible]. We have never thought of our children as boomers.
SM:
Do they think of themselves as boomers?
BF:
I do not think so. No, I do not think so. It is true. My wife is the same age that I am. We were Depression babies [inaudible] babies [inaudible]. But I think social class, gender, ethnicity have a whole lot more to do with people's behavior. I suppose that as far as I know, the only thing you can really document about when you have a huge demographic bulge like that is that when that bulge reaches age 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, you are very likely to get an increased rate of crime. Historically [inaudible]-
SM:
Teenagers, yeah.
BF:
...because most of what we define as crime, as opposed to corporate crime, most of what we define as crime is committed by people of that age. So when you have got more people of that age, you are probably going to have more crime. And obviously [inaudible], but-
SM:
Well-
BF:
...[inaudible] and then there is all this medical research and everything that is come out, that people [inaudible] 16, 17, 18, 19, there is a core part of their brain that is not fully developed, which has something to do with their judgment. I mean, I look back at myself as a teenager, and what I know about other [inaudible] and I say, "How does anybody ever live through their teens?" They do not have a lot of sense. And a lot of people think they are immortal or bulletproof, or something. We knew some of the stuff that our kids were involved in. We have found out more [inaudible].
SM:
Did you have a generation gap with your kids, when you were... because they always say that boomers, they really had a generation gap with their parents [inaudible].
BF:
No. I mean, [inaudible] share our values. We are very close [inaudible].
SM:
Right. In your view, when did the (19)60s begin, and when did it end?
BF:
I would say the (19)60s began in 1964 and ended around (19)74.
SM:
What was important in (19)64, Johnson winning, or...
BF:
Well, the way I see it, the I Have a Dream speech marked the end of it, the big March on Washington [inaudible], that, and the assassination of Kennedy. And then (19)64 was the first of the long, hot summers. It was the Mississippi Freedom Summer. It was the Gulf of Tonkin. It was the [inaudible] full-scale [inaudible]. And then, of course, [inaudible] was assassinated [inaudible]. I think if you looked at King's (19)63 speech and the April (19)67 speech and you put them together, you will see, how could so much change take place in such a short period of time?
SM:
You are talking about the Vietnam speech?
BF:
Yeah, yeah. And by (19)67, he is saying, "The greatest purveyor of violence in the world today is my own government. We are fighting on the wrong side of the war [inaudible]." This is the same guy that gave the I Have a Dream speech? He was part of the culture, and the changed situation and consciousness [inaudible]. So by (19)67, obviously, we were really into it. Early (19)65, the first anti-war demonstrations, the teach-ins of early (19)65.
SM:
And it ended in, you say, (19)74. Was that because the Vietnam War was over, or...
BF:
Well, (19)74, (19)75, someplace in there. The creation of the prison industrial complex. In some ways, you might be able to take... if you were going a couple years later. By (19)78, it was clear [inaudible]. I mean, [inaudible] emancipation radically changed between (19)77 and (19)78. (19)73, the United States surrenders in Vietnam. (19)75, the war is over. The change in dance styles began [inaudible]-
SM:
We had disco, yeah. Yeah.
BF:
It really takes over in the (19)80s.
SM:
You talked about ... because you are a cultural expert, and I had a chance to talk with Dr. Morris Dickstein, who talked about his book. And he wanted to talk more about culture. And what was it... the boomers often felt that they were the most unique generation in history. When they were young, they were going to change the world, create almost a utopia, end the war, bring peace, end racism, sexism, you name it. And then there was this feeling that they were unique, more unique than any other generally. Your thoughts on that kind of an attitude? Because many of them still feel that at 62 or 63, as they have gotten older. But what I am leaning into is, after you answer the question on uniqueness, what was it about the culture that stood out so different ... I know the music was unbelievable, the art was unbelievable, the theatrical performances. I am fascinated by guerrilla theater, that I do not think ever existed before. All these things that were a very important part of the period, and the movies, and the TV shows and documentaries, and the personalities on TV, there is a lot here. First, the question on uniqueness.
BF:
Every generation is unique, because every generation... See, I do not even know how... I have to confess something. The way my mind works, categories in general tend to break down. Whenever I started looking at categories, the boundaries of the categories start to come through. So I have a problem even with the concept of a generation.
SM:
That is okay. So did Todd Gitlin.
BF:
Yeah. [inaudible] So I can understand gender. That category I [inaudible]. And I can conceptualize class. But when there is a generation, it really seems to be very... the boundaries are so fluid. Okay, after World War II is [inaudible]. But what difference does that make? There were all kinds of other things happening in the world that were affecting people of different generations. And when I think of the anti-war movement, concrete... a lot of the people who were most active were people in the (19)60s, (19)67, (19)68, (19)69, who were in their 50s, 60s, 70s and older. And I do not know by percentage. Now, if you look at colleges, it is true that there were spectacular events at colleges, because it is easier for college students to engage in spectacular activities than it is for people who are working in the factory.
SM:
You are saying we tend to dwell too much on the college-educated as opposed to those that did not go to college.
BF:
[inaudible] Well, people, maybe they went to college, but I am saying different ages, different classes. This is not to belittle the college movement. It is wonderful, and I will be honest, [inaudible]. But I think the images that we have are quite inaccurate. When I think of the particular participants who were there year in and year out, a lot of them were older people in the community. But that is not the image.
SM:
How important were the... I am going to get to the culture question. How important were the college students and college student protests in ending the war?
BF:
Well, if you listen to the Vietnamese, they were very important.
SM:
Right. David Horowitz.
BF:
(19)64 to (19)68 was a period of [inaudible], which probably had a more direct role. But these things are not unrelated to each other, because the people who were rebelling in the cities, a lot of them were people who were going into the military [inaudible] because [inaudible] I think that in the final analysis, it was people in the military whose anti-war activities had great effect in ending the war; other than the Vietnamese, of course [inaudible]-
SM:
And you are talking-
BF:
The Vietnamese were going to win. They were going to win, no matter what.
SM:
Can you talk about that? And I know it is a very sensitive issue. I have brought it up with Vietnam vets who went there, and they may not want to talk about this part of the... I remember Country Joe was on our campus many years back, with Jan Scruggs. And we were eating dinner. And Country Joe is a little older than Jan Scruggs. And then out of nowhere, during the middle of the dinner, he says, "Have you ever wondered why there were no POWs for the North Vietnamese? Because they were all killed," he said. [inaudible] they were all killed. And Jan C., he did not want to talk about it. That is an image that happens a lot, that they just handed them over to the South Vietnamese, and they did whatever they wanted to do with them. And there was truth there, but-
BF:
Yeah [inaudible] MIA [inaudible] I debated on [inaudible] of the POW/MIA [inaudible] Vietnamese [inaudible]. If you had a choice between being captured by their side and captured by our side, which would you pick? And he was honest enough to move away from this whole area of discussion.
SM:
Oh, wow. He just very... Spitting Image is a book that comes out. And I have read it [inaudible] read it. Your thoughts on ... you mentioned just some commentary here, it is in the book. But why were the Vietnam veterans or people who fought in Vietnam the reason why the war ended? What did they do besides... I know they ended up writing and the other...
BF:
Yeah. I mean, it is there. It is documented in Vietnam [inaudible]-
SM:
Yeah, and we got the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, when they came back.
BF:
Well, Robert Heinl, writing in Armed Forces Journal, has quite a formative essay called The Collapse of the Armed Forces. And that is pretty accurate, because they were collapsing. And this is why Nixon ultimately had to withdraw the ground troops. The only units that were really capable of coherent playing at the level were [inaudible]. The conscript [inaudible] worse than useless, from a military point of view. They did not want to be there. They were largely [inaudible]. They wanted to come home alive. And you could write off, if you wanted to, the motivation of a lot of the people in the army in Vietnam who were actively against the war [inaudible] confusing [inaudible]. However, after [inaudible] and Nixon decided to switch the strategy to depend upon naval air power, we then had a revolutionary newspaper being published on every aircraft carrier [inaudible]. I cite in the book 1,500 members of the U.S.S. Constellation signed a petition to have Jane Fonda's FTA show brought onboard the carrier. Insurrections on ships, sabotage on ships, to the point that by October 1972, five aircraft carriers and their attending fleets had to be brought back to San Diego because they were unfit for combat, because of the anti-war activity in the fleet. And you cannot write off those guys as just trying to save their skins, because they were not in any danger. So why would they physically have taken action against the war? During the Christmas bombing, there were B-52 crews who refused to fly. Intelligence officials who were doing things like leaking the Pentagon Papers. So the students who were protesting on campus had limited means to really apply leverage. [inaudible] but the anti-war people in the Army, Navy and Air Force had a lot of leverage.
SM:
Is not it true that what was happening in Vietnam was happening in America, and that is the division between Black and white... there were those who said when they got into battle, that may have been a different story. They would fight to the end. But times when they were not in battle, the tensions of racism were still there, the drug culture. Everything that was happening in America was happening in the service, and that was part of the reason why it was going downhill.
BF:
But on the other hand, a lot of what was perceived was just the fact [inaudible] was not. A striking example was when a major ship... It was an aircraft carrier [inaudible] San Francisco. And a large number of crewmen refused to go aboard ship to go back to Vietnam. And there is a picture [inaudible]. They had their fists raised, like this. And the captain said, "[inaudible] crew members raised their fist in the Black Power symbol." But then you look at the picture, and a lot of the guys were white. So it was not a Black Power symbol. It was something else.
SM:
We got just a couple more minutes here. One of the basic questions I have tried to ask everyone... Well, there is two questions here. One is, and you may not want to answer this, because you do not believe in the generation concept, but if you were to define the generation, would you call them the Vietnam generation, the (19)60s generation, the Woodstock generation, the protest generation? [inaudible]-
BF:
It does not compute in my brain.
SM:
You said this era was so important culturally, and different than any other. In just a few words, how would you define the uniqueness of the culture during the era of the Vietnam War and the civil rights movements and the evolution of all these movements in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s?
BF:
Well, if you wanted to think of it in one particular word that pulls a lot of things together, I think it is the word liberation. And it is a word that was widely used then: women's liberation movement, Black liberation movement, People's Liberation Army. So going in many different areas, there was a sense of liberation from something. Obviously, you can see it in the music. Rock was perceived as liberating, whatever. I think a lot of people thought that some drugs were liberating. But then you have to be careful when you are talking about this, because even then, and certainly today, what is America's number one drug problem? It is not marijuana and it is not heroin and it is not cocaine. It was the same number one drug problem that led to... the 18th Amendment? [inaudible] prohibition.
SM:
[inaudible]-
BF:
So alcohol. If we want to talk about the destruction of families, domestic violence, violence on the highways, shattered lives, lost careers... But a certain amount of people have looked at marijuana at some point. Other people looking at LSD. I do not think they were looking at meth as [inaudible]. Anyway, so-
SM:
Were the movies and the TV shows liberating, or how about the media culture, all those?
BF:
Well, yeah, I mean, whether they were or were not, there is the perception, I think, of that. [inaudible] in a lot of different ways. It was not just people who were involved in the anti-war movement [inaudible] that time, people were being liberated from something about the conformist and oppressive culture that dominated in the (19)50s.
SM:
Of course, TV was another part of this generation. They saw everything, and they saw the war on TV. One of the questions that our students came up with when we went down to Washington... I think it was like the year before you came to our campus. Senator Muskie was still alive. [inaudible]... This is what they asked him. I have got this right here, or is it here? They wrote it here. We usually have a hard time finding this. Oh, okay. The students wrote this: "Do you feel boomers are still having problems with healing, due to the extreme divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, the divisions between Black and white, gay and straight, male and female, division between those who supported authority and those who criticized it, divisions between those who supported the troops and those who did not? What role did the Vietnam War play in healing the divisions, or was this primarily a healing for veterans? Do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? And are we wrong in thinking this way, or has 35, 40 years made the following statement true: time heals all wounds?" Your thoughts on whether we are a nation that cannot heal from all those divisions from that time, that maybe what we see today in our society is a lack of tolerance [inaudible] for other points of view, people do not want to work together. Do you see anything there? And a lot of these boomers are now going into senior citizen status. And I know we may not like to call them a generation, but the Civil War generation, a lot of them... because I have studied Gettysburg, and many of them never healed from that battle.
BF:
Well, again, I do not see this as being confined to a generation, because I think the chasms did open up in American society during this period in 1968 [inaudible] exposed [inaudible] most divisive events [inaudible]. I do not know if we can put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Certainly, today when we talk about red states and blue states, I mean, this is a pretty new concept, except that if you look at the red states, to a large extent, you are looking at lines that pretty much parallel the Civil War.
SM:
In fact, Muskie's response was, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And he would not even talk about anything else.
BF:
Yeah, but we have had a lot of elections since then which were landslides for one party or another party [inaudible] sections of the country voted the same way. You do not see that happening right now, although I think in 2008, it looked like maybe we were going to get out of this mess. Virginia, North Carolina voted for Obama. But since the Republican Party, I think accurately, decided that they had to destroy Obama in order to survive and flourish as a party, and then they kept developing a strategy based on that assumption, that those chasms have become much greater. I do not know if you have gone to any of the town hall meetings?
SM:
Yeah, with Senator Specter.
BF:
I do not know [inaudible].
SM:
It was not fun. It was like they talked down to him, just like he was nobody.
BF:
[inaudible]-
SM:
Whether you like him or not, you do not treat a politician... Boy, it was unbelievable.
BF:
Yeah. Well, my wife went to one in Montclair, which is a very liberal town. And she said it was really scary, really scary.
SM:
So as Senator Gaylord Nelson said, people do not walk around with lack of healing on their sleeve, but he said it forever affected the body politic. And that is the way he responded. It has not healed within the body politic itself.
BF:
But I think the main thing that is going on now is more and more [inaudible]. I do not know what forces there are right now that are going to reverse that [inaudible].
SM:
What are your thoughts on the Vietnam Memorial when you see it? Has it done the job of healing the nation in any way beyond the veteran community? What are your thoughts on that? What do you think of it?
BF:
Well, what I like about the Vietnam Memorial is that it does not glorify war. We have too many statues of people with swords on horseback. I guess it affects different people in different ways, but it is certainly not something which encourages militarism. On the other hand, what was... McNamara's estimate of the number of Vietnamese killed, 325,000 [inaudible] 250,000-
SM:
[inaudible]-
(End of Interview)
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Interview with H. Bruce Franklin
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Franklin, H. Bruce (Howard Bruce), 1934- ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Historians; Authors, American--20th century College teachers; Rutgers University; Franklin, H. Bruce (Howard Bruce), 1934--Interviews
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H. Bruce Franklin is an American cultural historian and scholar. He has received top awards in American Studies, science fiction, prison literature, and marine ecology. Franklin has written and edited nineteen books, three hundred professional articles, and has participated in several film productions. He was awarded the Pearson-Bode Prize for lifetime achievement in American Studies. Franklin currently is the Professor of English and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey. He received his Bachelor's degree from Amherst College and his Ph.D. from Stanford University.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-03-10
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.190
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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46:50
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Paul Krassner
Date of Interview
2010-03-10
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
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Video or Audio
Audio
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179:00
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor and publisher of the the Realist magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture. He studied Journalism at Baruch College. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor, and publisher of the <em>Realist</em> magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography <em>Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture</em>. He studied Journalism at Baruch College. </span>
Keywords
<span>1968 Democratic Convention; Abbie Hoffman; Abe Peck; AIM; Allen Ginsberg; Anita Hoffman; Arthur Chickering; Avery Corman; Barry Freed; Bayard Rustin; Black Panther Party; Black Power Movement; Bob Fass; Bobby Kennedy; Burt Caen; City College of New York; Chicano movement; CIA; Clark Kerr; Community Friends; Conspiracy; Dan White trial; Daniel Ellsberg; Dave Bellinger; David Horowitz; Dr. Albert Ellis; Dr. Rosalind Petchesky; Ed Sanders; Edmund Muskie; Eisenhower; Ernie Kovacs; FBI; Festival of Life; George Carlin; George Lincoln Rockwell; George McGovern; George Will; Harry Reasoner; Hippies; House of American Activities Committee; J. Edgar Hoover; Jack Kerouac; Jeff Miller; Jerry Rubin; John Carlos; John Kennedy; John McCain; John Sinclair; Jonah Raskin; Judy Gumbo; Ken Kesey; Kent State; Kim Phuc; Kurt Vonnegut; Lenny Bruce; Levitate the Pentagon; Lyle Stuart; Mae Brussell; Mark Rudd; Martin Luther King Jr.; Mary Vecchio; Merry Pranksters; Miri Savio; Mk-Ultra ; My Lai massacre; Napalm; Neal Cassidy; Ned Lamont; Newseum; Newt Gingrich; Norman Mailer; Osama Bin Laden; Patty Hearst; Peter Max; Phil Ochs; Proletarian; Rabbi Hesche ; Ram Daas; Rex Weine ; Richard Nixon; Robert Scheer; Robin Morgan; Ronnie Davis; SDS; Stewart Brand; Stu Albert; Super Joe ; Tet Offensive; The Independent; The Realis ; Timothy Leary; Tom Hayden; Truthdig; Twinkie Defense; U2; Vietcong; Vietnam; Vietnamese; </span><span>Wall Street Dollar Bill event; Walter Cronkite; Watergate; WBE; Weatherman; Women’s Movement; Wounded Knee; Yippies; Young Lords; Zippies.</span>
Blacks and Jews; Anti-Semitism and anti-blackness; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Nineteen sixties Generation Era; George McGovern; Drugs; Yippie Movement; Divorce Rate; Hippie; Yippie.
Subject LCSH
Authors, American--20th century;Journalists; Comedians; Publishers; Realist (New York, N.Y.); Krassner, Paul--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Paul Krassner
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers
Date of interview: 10 March 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:03
SM: Testing 123 ̶
00:07
PK: Exists and so um, I look back and I am very pleased. You know, I am disappointed in the sense that all the stuff that I have wanted to accomplish I have not or not yet and, and you know most people know you for what You have done and you know yourself somehow for what you still want to do.
00:34
SM: You have done so much what do you still want to do?
00:37
PK: Well, you know, I am going to be seventy-eight in a few days.
00:43
SM: Well, congratulations, happy birthday!
00:46
PK: And I have and so I am working on my first novel. And as a friend, Avery Corman, told me, he wrote Oh, God! and Kramer Versus Kramer. He wrote his very first article in The Realist, we became friends. And I said to him, boy, it is really hard, writing fiction, you have to have to make stuff up. And he said, "Come on Paul, you have been making up stuff all your life." And I said, "Yeah, but that was journalism." So it is a different kind of challenge. You know, I could just describe, I did not know, I could describe Abbie Hoffman by just describing what I already knew. And I want to try to avoid ever describing anybody at having chiseled features, which is one of the description clichés, I cannot help but notice.
01:48
SM: One of the things that I think you are proud of this is what the FBI said of you, you know what I am saying here, and that is what is the inspiration for the title of your book. The FBI said, "To classify Krassner as a social rebel is far too few he is a nut, a raving unconfined nut." Are you very proud? You are pretty proud of that aren't you?
02:11
PK: I guess, sort of like people were proud of being on, like Daniel Ellsberg, said he was proud to be on the enemies list. You know, I mean, my mother was not happy about that. But it was so absurd but also significant because they were trying to, you know, this was written on a poison pen letter so as if it came from a college student complaining about the articles that Life Magazine had published about. And so that was the context of it. But you know, and they were doing that, you know, character assassination, which did not bother me so much except that is not what taxpayer money goes to do. And as you can could read in my autobiography, it escalated the next year, character assassination to what was virtually a literal assassination. When the FBI put out a leaflet with, it had a huge swastika on it. It had the four black faces. It had photographs of four people. One was Mark Rudd, who was the head of the SDS, Students for a Democratic Society. Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, cofounders of the yippies, the Youth International Party as was I in the fourth corner there. And the headline was Lampshade! Lampshade! Lampshade! And it was essentially something in their files which, and the file was trying to create rifts between Blacks and Jews. This was the FBI's wonderful work behind the scenes. And in the copy below that headline, they talked about how Jews have been oppressing Negros, for so long but we know what happened years ago so we must, these leaders must be eliminated. And then they have to get permission. This is all from my FBI files. This was Washington, and they had to get permission from the New York office. These were J. Edgar Hoover's DuPont assistants who approved it. In their approval of it gave instructions to the New York office, make sure that, and I am paraphrasing but the essence of it, make sure that these pamphlets or leaflets are not traceable to the Bureau. But how they described it the word they used was that these leaflets facetiously suggesting the elimination. And so, you know, it was as if some militant black militant black picked up this flyer in Florida he now he might have been a little bit off kilter. But if he had assassinated one of us the FBI defense would be, we said it was facetious. So, so anyway, so even though I got a book title out of it, the "Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut" but you know, it was it was really proletarian that was what they were doing.
06:16
SM: I would say and you know that we know the workings of J. Edgar Hoover but and when they ask you this, when you looked at the relationship between Jewish Americans and African Americans over the years in the (19)50s, the (19)40s, the (19)50s and into the (19)60s, it was one of the strongest relationships ever in American history. Because they understood, each group understood the rights and you have to fight for rights and there is prejudice against various groups based on your religion and ethnic background. Do you believe there was some sort of jealousy there too? That even though you were looked upon the four of you as maybe radicals in their eyes, there was this anti-Semitism too that was there and maybe anti-black, that to these two groups working together no matter where they were found have to be divided.
07:14
PK: That is right exactly right, divide and conquer. You know anybody who, who would question authority. My daughter once said she when she was growing up, she said, I really thought my Dad and his friends were paranoid. But as I grew up, I began to understand that there was a police state involved. And so you know, a lot of the stuff that is coming out now are just continuations of what, because of technology, you know, has turned you know, say with cell phones or video cameras. What was once used for porn and entertainment is now used as evidence. So, the scandals are coming out now. You know as Ken Kesey once said to me, you know the spirit of truth. And it is that classic metaphor of there being grass pushing its way through the cement blocks.
08:38
SM: It is amazing because when you think of the strongest relationship in the anti-war movement, it was the relationship between a Black man and a Jewish man. And that was Rabbi Heschel and Martin Luther King Jr. They were the united arm and arm and they were both united in their effort to end war in Vietnam. And actually they were both criticized within their religious communities. They were they were visionaries. One of the early questions I asked of all of our guests, or all the interviewees.
09:08
PK: I like that, guests! Hah!
09:11
SM: Well, interviewees. I actually sent that I actually said that in an office once down in New York City, and she said, I am your guest, you are not my guest, and that was because I was in her office done at NYU. But the question that I am asking is, George Will oftentimes whenever he gets a chance, he'll take shots at the (19)60s generation or that era, as the reason for a lot of the problems we have in our society and you can go to any book that he has written and he'll have an essay, when Newt Gingrich came into power in (19)94, he made some very strong comments against that era around the time that George McGovern was running for president and that particular period, kind of criticizing that time and that Generation. And then when you read your book and your books, some of the quotes from John McCain when he talks about Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee, in his comments on drugs, and, and also David Horowitz and I saw this in where he claims that, and you know, this is from an article that was in the web said that "Although he likes Krassner personally, he believes that he in the yippies must shoulder much of the blame for the crisis of AIDS and drug addiction. It was one of it was one long incitement against America against all the guidelines and morals and mores and help people make it through life." He said, "The yippie movement, and I think the yippies in the end were a terribly destructive force." Now he is only talking about yippies here, but as George Will and Gingrich, they are talking about the generation.
10:53
PK: Oh, yeah.
10:54
SM: Just your thoughts on all these commentaries, that the drug culture that break up with the American family, the extensive divorce rate, a concept of all these "isms", the concept of the Welfare State all these things. Let us just blame it on the lack of respect for authority.
11:11
PK: Well, yeah, I think that (19)60s bashing is going to be in the Olympics in a few years. It is you know, it is scapegoating, in retrospect. And I have written a few a few things about it, as I see the pattern, and, and what sometimes it is not even conscious scapegoating is just sloppy journalism.
11:37
SM: Mm hmm.
11:38
PK: You know, it is kind of shorthand. An example of that was a linking of a New York politician Ned Lamont, the writer was saying that he was, that blinding him as a politician running for some office was, not the same as and, the two people he linked was Osama bin Laden or Abbie Hoffman and I thought well there you know, talk about strange bedfellows! And the line I used to differentiate between them was that Bin Laden a plane to fly into the Pentagon and Abbie, he only wanted to levitate it.
12:41
SM: Yes. Yeah. One of the questions I wanted to ask you and I have read a lot of in your biography, but could you talk a bit about your college days? Obviously, you were a child prodigy, you were on the stage of Carnegie Hall as a very young kid. And I understand from reading about your background, how you went in another direction. But were your college years in the (19)50s, did they have any kind of an influence on you?
13:15
PK: It just intensified my obsession of what I was going to do with my life. It was just so important because I saw people, a lot of people just unhappy or angry about their work, but you know that and yet they wanted to support their families. And so I really just so I was not happy in politics, did not know what I would major in and second semester I took a leave of absence. And went every day in the afternoon, I have afternoon job and I would go to a vocational library and read about different vocations. And then through a series of chain links, I ended up in my senior year in college working for The Independent of course, the paper run by Lyle Stuart.
14:28
SM: And the college? No, no, no. No, I mean the name of the college.
14:33
PK: Excuse me?
14:34
SM: I am just putting it in for the record where you went to school.
14:38
PK: Oh, oh! CCNY, City College of New York.
14:41
SM: Okay.
14:41
PK: And I started working for him, this was in my senior year. And I just, I realized I would rather work there than at the New York Times. I mean because it was an anti-censorship to paper in a long tradition from Thomas Paine to [unintelligible] and I was just thrilled to have, even though I was just at the start stuffing envelopes. And so it was, it was, I just felt so grateful to have landed in in that position. I ended up becoming the managing editor. In college, really my mind was wandering a lot. You know, I remember a couple of things, one was in Philosophy 101 the definition of philosophy was the rationalization of life. And, and the other was that some anthropologist said happiness is having had as little separation as possible between your work and your play and everything else is kind of a blur. I mean, I know I got through one course not having paid attention for the whole semester, but the night before the final exam, I studied everything that was in italics in the textbook. So that you know, it was not it was nothing that I... I was the assistant manager of the basketball team. I think I wanted that really, I was one of those jackets. A silk jacket, a sports jacket. So and I left college, I was already working there. I knew what I wanted. I did not want to have any job where I needed a degree, because to me that was false snobbery. I mean, I do not mean that, you know, somebody is going to medical school. But, but for me personally, I did not. And, and so, in my, I would pick, I needed one three credit course, to get my degree and I just walked out of the class one day. And it was liberating. Although, you know, it was incredible to my family. And, but, you know, I had to live my own life. It is that simple.
17:51
SM: Mm hmm. Well, it is interesting because some of the biggest moments the (19)60s are linked to you. At least anybody who cares about the (19)60s who grew up in the (19)60s or who grew up in that era. It is the how the term "yippie" became a term. And of course, we'll talk about the Twinkie Defense later on in the interview, but I have Jerry Rubin's book. I remember buying that book in 1971 when I was in grad school and reading it in the summertime and him saying in the book that the term "yippie" they were in a meeting someplace with a lot of people, they did not know what to name their group and so somebody in the background was yelling "yippie". And so that was how it became the group became "the yippies." Well, that is misinformation from do it? Because when you look at your book and read your background, that was a meeting that you and Abbie Hoffman had along with Abbie's wife.
18:52
PK: I have read I have read several different versions of that but you know, I was there as a friend as an activist, and as a journalist, so I made note of it. And as a journalist, I knew that you need a ̶ who, what, when, where and how.
19:18
SM: Right.
19:18
PK: And so I just had this brainstorm trying to, and this was on the afternoon of December 31st 1967. And it was at the apartment on the lower east side of Abbie and Anita Hoffman. And there were about maybe eight or nine more activist friends, there gathered, and, the essence of what we were talking about was going as a counter convention in the summer of (19)68, Chicago when the Democrats would have their convention. And it was the Vietnam War was bipartisan, but it just happened to be under the democrat's watch at that point. And as Abbie once said, we do not want to go to Miami in the off-season anyway. So I was trying to think of Bob Bass was one of the original yippies, he said that no, he said this later, I am getting ahead of myself. The San Francisco the "diggers" had a march through the streets, a funeral called "the death of hippies" because it had definitely become you know a media term and they wanted to call themselves "Free Americans," which was bizarre because when the hostages were released from Iran, the first thing when they went to in America was get a haircut and it would be silly for hippies, you know, to hear somebody yelling at them, you know, get a haircut, you "Free American" but it was an oxymoronic epithet. So I was thinking of a different, something that would rhyme with hippies seemed natural, and then I was trying to think of, of a an acronym that you know, would represent what the event was going to be for us, one of the original, the folk singer, Phil Ochs, had described the mood we wanted to bring to Chicago. He said a demonstration to turn you on, not turn you off.
22:34
SM: Yeah, it is a quote I have here. Yes.
22:38
PK: And so came up with "Youth" because it was a generational thing at that time, "international" because this kind of evolutionary jump in consciousness was around the globe and so in Paris in Mexico and Czechoslovakia, the same rebellion against repression was in process and so "international" was in the middle and then "P" for party which was perfect because of both like a political party and have a lot of fun party. Excuse me for one second.
23:22
SM: Yeah.
23:32
PK: I thought my wife came in. So, Let us see where was I? And so the initials for that would be "Y.I. and P" for the acronym and so out of that derived the "yippies" and so at our first press conference as a result of that, the Chicago papers had a headline: "Yipes, the Yippies are Coming" and so, you know, we could see that the myth developing. We would hear from, you had to open an office, we were hearing from groups on campuses, you know, who, who finally, had a name for what they represented. Because all I did was, was come up with a name, which was essentially a shout of joy. So I did not even make up the name. But just a name a phenomenon that already existed. And this came from that had originally been an adversarial relationship between the hippies and between the straight politicians, political activists, and so that the hippies thought that straight politicos were playing into the administrations chance by protesting against the war and the politicos, thought the hippies were being irresponsible because they were just sitting around in the park smoking pot but each one came to realize as it was a kind of cross fertilization of the stoned hippies and the straight politicos you know, seeing each other at maybe civil rights demonstrations or antiwar rallies and hippies began to see.. the straight politicos saw that the hippies, that they had a smoke-in at the park, that they were committing civil disobedience to protest against an unjust law and the hippies could see in turn, they could see a linear connection ultimately from putting someone behind bars for smoking weed and they could see that that connection to dropping Napalm.
26:50
SM: Yes.
26:50
PK: On kids on the other side of the world. And the connection was, it was the ultimate extension of the dehumanization, of punishment without crime. And o in each whether it whether it was young people imprisoned for giving themselves harmless pleasure and people turning the other one other way, not seeing the terrible injustices and expanded ultimately to people turning away from the war in Vietnam, you know and being gung ho about it.
27:47
SM: That is a beautiful description, I read a part of like that in the book too but this linear connection is very important to hear because even when you look at the 1968 convention in Chicago, correct me if I am wrong, the yippies and people who were around that group looked upon it as the convention of death. Because we were killing Vietnamese and we historically had not talked about the people we were killing. We are thinking about the people that are losing lives from our nation, which is equally important, our troops, but certainly not a whole lot about the Vietnamese people themselves and you thought about it. The group is, as I have got here "The Festival of Life" so you are making a connection even there, you know, changing the name for Youth International Party and now going to the convention for challenging the convention of death. Is that correct?
28:48
PK: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And we were going to do it, not just music instead of speeches, but what happened in Woodstock the following year was our original vision and we thought we would have a booths around the perimeter with, you know, information on the draft and information on the drug and so it was, so it really was a it really captured the attention of people who, you know, we would pull stunts, like throwing money off the balcony onto the floor of the factory today.
29:52
SM: Mm hmm.
29:54
PK: But then there would be a press conference outside and we would talk about the relationship between Wall Street and the war.
30:09
SM: Yeah, yeah, a couple of the antics that people define them as antics. Levitating the Pentagon in (19)67. The Wall Street where the dollar bills were thrown out. Jerry Rubin had one you may remember it and do it where he went into the bank. Do you remember that scene?
30:29
PK: He went into the bank, and what?
30:33
SM: He went into the bank, and he asked if he could use the restroom. And they said, get out of here, we do not like your types in the bank. And he said, I going to go to the bathroom. And they said, no, you got to leave. And he says, if you do not let me go in the bathroom, I will go right on the floor. And he did.
30:54
PK: If I knew about that, I forgot it.
30:56
SM: Yeah, it was and it was do it. It was because it was linked to his book, "Do It." So I am remembering things from back when I read this book a long time ago, but it is kind of a; you guys had a very a lot of energy I remember. You have a lot of energy and in some respects, you determined. Why do you feel that we are not talking to the Newt Gingrich's in the Mike Huckabees, and John McCain's of the world but what do you think some of the liberals have today I have interviewed some who, when I go at the end of the interview, and I mentioned Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin and the hippies, and they just saw that was nothing. And these are liberals that were in either, they might have been an SDS, the Women's Movement and the Black Power Movement. I am not talking about
31:47
PK: Well, you know, we got a lot of attention that they did not. So there was a resentment out of the new left. You know we were having fun and the new left was kind of serious. I mean we were serious too, but humor was our vehicle.
32:14
SM: Paul, if I were to ask you to give them a quick definition of the definition of a hippie the definition of a yippie and then the definition of a zippy, how would how would they differ?
32:30
PK: A hippie and a yippie and a what?
32:32
SM: A Zippy.
32:33
PK: Okay.
32:35
SM: And please speak up too.
32:37
PK: Okay. A hippie and the name came from San Francisco Chronicle columnist Burt Caen and (C.A.E.N) and from, I guess hipster or hip itself and essentially, it was to describe young people who, especially males, who were letting the hair grow longer and wearing colorful clothes and smoking marijuana and they were stead fullness and sense of community and sex, drugs and music was their Holy Trinity, but and at the core of this psychedelic revolution was a spiritual revolution. As Lenny Bruce said, people were leaving the church going back to God.
33:58
SM: [Laughs]
33:58
PK: But I was thinking of that as we speak because of that is what is happening with the Catholic Church now.
34:05
SM: Oh, I know.
34:09
PK: So let us see, where was I? Oh, ok so a yippie was, oh now something comes something I was going to say before, Bob Fass who had a nightly show, all night show on WBAI radio in New York and his description was a yippie is a hippie whose been beat on the head with a cop's billy club and I would say a yippie was a someone who saw without even articulating, someone who knew that the right to smoke marijuana was related to the right to protest against a war, or it was just a sense of freedom and in terms of LSD, it was one of the drug of choice at the time. It was originally started by the CIA in the hope of an exploited I should say not distorted in the hope that it could be used as a drug of control. And the methodology, especially with people, which is what they did with their Mk-Ultra experiment, on unsuspecting volunteers. There was a process of de-programming and then reprogramming them in whatever way they wish. And what happened in the (19)60s was that the young people who experimented with LSD, and for the most part, the experiment was a success, one vehicle of connecting one conscious with one's unconscious, or subconscious and so they were able to program themselves to deprogram themselves from mainstream culture, which has so many inhumane aspects to it and reprogram themselves, not only reprogram themselves to a more humane value system, but to practice it it. To practice the alternative. Whether it was forming communes, or playing music or any of the arts it was it was a kind of utopian vision, but it was not just a fantasy. Which is why I am still doing research into the government had, what level the government had with wanting to neutralize that movement because think tanks saw how it affected the economy. And so I am supposed to meet up the former FBI agent who was in what they called the hippie squad, and where they among have other things they learned how to roll a joint. The better to infiltrate a commune. So, okay, so hippie, yippie, zippie.
34:12
SM: Yippie? Zippies were the latter group.
38:44
PK: Okay, so in 1972 when at the republican convention in Miami, I think both conventions were held there that year. And there were some people and I was in California I was not there at that time. And getting out an issue of The Realist which by the late queen of conspiracy researchers Mae Brussell (M.A.E B.R.U.S.S.E.L.L) and publishing an article, a front page article by her on the relationship, all of the implications of and the conspiracy behind the Watergate break in. And this was at a time when the President and the media was still saying it was just a caper or a third rate burglary. So you know, in my own function it was to stay there and get that out and not go to Miami. So there was some of the younger people from the Lower East Side mostly who they started calling out Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin's age difference. And they called themselves the Zippies. And, and they were, and it was, you know, and they would making bread while you know, while the yippies were trying to make friends with elderly people there, the zippies would kind of taunt them and it was a very tense atmosphere between them. The zippies later of course named themselves the yippies because obviously, you had a better brand.
41:19
SM: Would say that the, the issue with the zippies and the yippies was like, in some of the other, even in the civil rights movement where the Black Panther Party challenged Dr. King, Bayard Rustin, civil rights leaders that your time has passed, they were just basically telling Abbie and Jerry and the others your time has passed. Is that what they were trying to do?
41:43
PK: Oh, yeah, that that they were trying to say your time is passed but the other side of that coin was our time has come and so you know, they were creating dissension rather than cooperate.
42:02
SM: Yeah, one of the things that is when you look at the people that were in the yippies, they were, you know, you were in there. Jonah Raskin who I interviewed was in there. He has written some great books, and ones on Abbie. Obviously, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, Robin Morgan, on the biggest names in women's studies. You had John Sinclair, Stu Albert, who I am learning more about Ed Sanders and Judy Gumbo and others. These are major people. How did you ever link up? You know, like, what I am really trying to get at Paul. You are a person who graduates trying to figure out who are and what you are going to become. You become a comedian. You get to you have that particular what when was the first time you met these people and you knew they were your friends and you had similar ideas and you hung out together? When did all that begin?
43:02
PK: Well, I was living on the Lower East Side now known as the village. And other folks I knew, including Abbie Hoffman, including Bob Fass would have a weekly meeting with called the Community Friends because we were not going to be the community with the milk of mines and I do not know some, some rhetoric like that, but it was just a group of people who and I became friends with them in the process. And then especially, I became friends with Abbie and Anita Hoffman and, and they were just two blocks away from me and so you know, we had a lot of dinners together and movies and I think the moment that my friendship with Abbie was cemented was when Abbie, I am sorry, Lenny Bruce had died the previous year. And I told that Abbie that he was the first one who really made me laugh since Lenny died and Abbie said, oh, really, he was my God. And so you know, there was, that was the only sense in which I believe in an afterlife. The posthumous network.
44:58
SM: Let me switch my tape here.
45:04
PK: Okay, I got my lemonade.
45:09
SM: I hear you live in a very hot area. Is that true?
45:13
PK: Yeah, this is Desert Hot Springs and the weather sometimes you know is like one hundred and twenty degrees.
45:23
SM: No humidity though.
45:25
PK: But I will tell you I would I never used to like air conditioning but I grew to appreciate it.
45:34
SM: Yeah.
45:35
PK: And, and my wife Nancy and I had just moved from Venice Beach and right you know a block away from the ocean.
45:43
SM: Mm hmm.
45:43
PK: So going from the ocean to the desert was a real what was the word I want?
45:53
SM: Culture shock?
45:54
PK: Yes, it had a certain culture shock, yeah that is the word.
46:00
SM: It is amazing how we use that term a lot. Even in passing. Yeah, and we were talking about these personalities and you getting to know Abbie. Now, before we get back to these personalities that were in the yippies, Lenny Bruce has a little boy growing up in the (19)50s I knew all about Lenny Bruce. And then the only thing I can remember as a little boy was I think he was refused? Ed Sullivan would not allow him on his show because he could not predict what he would say or something? I remember hearing that. And that he was way ahead of his time that and here you are a person who was involved in editing his what his biography?
46:52
PK: Yes, I was the editor of his autobiography. It was not it was not ghostwritten but Playboy hired me as his editor.
47:03
SM: What is amazing is when I think of as a little boy again now in the (19)50s and the people that there is two people that come to mind to me that I wish I knew more about its Lenny Bruce and Ernie Kovacs because they both died young, they were both very talented and I think sometimes they were misunderstood. What was it about Lenny that he was so ahead of his time you were one of his closest friends and he kind of pushed you into being a comedian too. He was kind of a mentor or a role model for you. What was it about Lenny?
47:48
PK: Well, he saw through the bullshit and aimed for the truth and ultimately, he just was going to have the same freedom in nightclubs that he had in his living room. But he was his antenna, his antenna was always out. A lot of the comedians I have met George Carlin is certainly like this.
48:18
SM: Oh one of my favorites.
48:22
PK: His mind was always going and going and going, you know, it was just his nature. It was almost as if he had no control over it. So Lenny really just wanted to make people laugh. He was not trying to change them. He, you know, when I asked him about that, he would say, well, you know, maybe they get changed for twenty minutes and then they were home and they were into something else, you know, so he had no delusions about that. But he just wanted to communicate without compromise, which is what I wanted to do with The Realist. And in fact, when Newsweek did a story, they quoted Steve Allen, who was the first subscriber, they quoted him as saying The Realist was the periodical equivalent of Lenny Bruce. So the connection was there. With what each of us did was did so, you know when we got together it was not small talk, you know, you would start several steps ahead.
49:43
SM: Can you honestly say, Paul, that if it was not for Lenny Bruce, you would never have been able to produce the Realist?
49:54
PK: I think it is more [laughs]no, because I started in 1958 and I did not meet him until 1959. Okay, and Lenny would have many would have surrendered his talent with or without me. The only thing I helped inadvertently helped him get arrested was when he saw the use of language in The Realist when I interviewed somebody. The example specifically was the late Dr. Albert Ellis who had in our interview, he talked about the semantics of profanity and saying that if fucking was a good thing, then, if you want to say something nasty to somebody you should say "unfuck you." And the first time I met Lenny, I had an advanced copy of that issue which I gave to him and he looked at it. This was in his hotel room in the theater district at the time, we were in New York. And he and he was looking through it. And he saw that, that dialogue, and he said, do you get away with that? Of course at the time, most virtually all magazines were not would have dashes or asterisks instead of spelling out the word. And so and I said yeah, it talks about the Supreme Court's recent decision then that something was obscene if it had prurient appeal. It appealed the prurient interests and had no social positive, social redeeming social value that was the phrase. And Lenny would say: prurient? What does that mean? And he got out of the suitcase that was on the bed in his hotel room, a large, an unabridged dictionary, which he had carried with him where he had event ̶ He was a mono-didactic south pawed semanticist as was George Carlin the difference between them being that improvised a lot whereas George Carlin wrote down and memorized everything he did. But the point of view was extremely similar. So you know both in making fun of organized religion and political leaders and Lenny's arrests were ostensibly for obscenity but actually for having this powerful hysterical targets but you know there was a law against obscenity there was not a law against blasphemy. And so that was when Lenny had only used euphemism by spring before that and he started using the language that anyway, he was not trying to be a martyr and he would use the language not the way of so many comics do today we as an all-purpose, noun, adjective, adverb, verb, epithet, whatever.
54:06
SM: Mm hmm.
54:06
PK: And so I am not saying that is a bad thing except it is like sort of a reduction of vocabulary but it takes the edge off, you know the magic powers of four letters in certain combinations.
54:26
SM: Yeah, I remember reading; you admit to Tallulah Bankhead the actress. Something about the use of that term, a four-letter word and somebody used the term food.
54:40
PK: Oh, no, no, no, this was Norman Mailer. Okay. The first time I met him and he and in The Naked and the Dead, he had used the word a "fub", (F.U.B) as a euphemism.
54:55
SM: Oh, okay. That is it.
54:59
PK: And I asked him if it was true that Tallulah Bankhead said to him, oh, yes, you are the young man who doesn't know how to spell 'fuck' and his response was something like, oh, yes, then you are the actress who doesn't know how. That is the background of that.
55:32
SM: When you were, I have a question here about The Realist too. But when The Realist was getting started to keep it going, you needed to raise funds and that is what that poster came in 'fuck communism' was not that the uh, you sold them to raise some funds to keep the paper going?
55:52
PK: Oh, no, no. Well, the background of it was just it was just from gone with the art director of Mad and did a column called Modest Proposal and he wanted to give me a gift, this poster and he has the word "fuck," but he did not know what the object of the verb would be and he would think about "Fuck America." And it kind of made me uncomfortable because the paradox of America was that we have the freedom to express ourselves as to how lousy the government was doing such as waging wars in our name and so I thought about it, and I said, how about communism? Because it was such great, at that time, it was such a great incongruity, because it was the conservatives who were for the war. And it was conservatives who were against using language like that. And so it was a little bit confusing to them. And when the post office questioned me about it, and because I was going to send them, I had, oh, I am sorry, the printer would not print it. I could not get the people who did the engraving of the plate that we needed. They would not do it. And so I decided that I would have mention of it in The Realist and do it as a poster and the red, white, blue word "fuck" with stars and stripes and the word communism as red with hammers and sickles and says in small print at the bottom additional copies available from the Mothers of the American Revolution. And um, so it was, you know, I mean it helped. It helped. If they had printed it in the first place, and I had just used it in The Realist, it would not have brought any additional income. So bringing income was inadvertent, that was not the original purpose of that.
58:42
SM: Okay.
58:43
PK: But, but it had a purpose, which was Robert Scheer. S.C.H.E.E.R.
58:50
SM: Oh yeah I know. Yup.
58:52
PK: Oh, okay. Oh, he would be a tremendous uncompromising journalist. And now he has Truthdig. He has what? "Truthdig" (with two g's) T.R.U.T.H.D.I.G. as an online magazine. So he came to New York we had met in when he was working at the City Lights bookstore in San Fransisco. We were just talking I did not even know it is 1963 early and I did not even really know about the Vietnam War much. And he was enraged by it and he started explaining to me what was going on. And he went and he was writing a booklet for The Republic. A West Coast think tank and he wanted to, but they would not send him to Southeast Asia so he can see for himself. And so I said well, what would a round trip ticket cost you? And he said one million nine hundred dollars. And by that time, we had sold about a couple of thousand at one dollar each, so I gave him a check for the uh, to go to Cambodia, Vietnam and, do his research. So you know that was a blessing in disguise.
1:00:42
SM: Okay.
1:00:43
PK: Of not printing it in the Realist.
1:00:48
SM: Well one of the most important things you know, I am a big fan of the Newseum in Washington, D.C. and we have actually had people from the museum when I worked at the university come and speak about it and of course, it has got a brand-new building now. But the question I want to ask you is The Realist what it was like to be the editor of an underground paper, and all the pressures just to survive as a paper during these times. And the second part of the question, which I hope is an affirmative answer, has the underground press, like papers like the Realist ever been recognized by the Newseum in Washington D.C. for all of the great things that press has done? It is part of the history of America after the war, and I am I was curious if you know anything about what the Newseum has done to pay tribute to or do programs on, the underground newspapers.
1:01:48
PK: I honestly do not know. I do not know.
1:01:53
SM: And Paul please speak up too.
1:01:55
PK: Yeah, I am just, I am mumbling because I just do not know actually. I mean, there have been books about it, there is a fellow named Abe Peck, he did a book called Uncovering the (19)60s, it was a history of the underground press. And I know, I know, I think the University of Michigan had a microfilm of The Realist. And now all the issues are being put online. But I do not know if there was ever, ever any official recognition of it, by the, you know, like the Smithsonian or any of the museums.
1:02:29
SM: I think that would be I am not, I could not do it. But someone like you. And the person who was the leader of one of the biggest names: The Realist but the other newspapers whether if they are truly a Newseum that they are whether they recognize the importance of the underground press.
1:02:51
PK: It is a great idea. There should be that. You know, they, I think that those times, everybody was living so much in the present they did not think of the future like that. But sure, it is, it is a part of, of journalistic history really all of them I mean, the LA Free Press, the original publisher of that lives near me. He is now into alchemy. What are they doing now and, longevity. And it is you know there is here and there is recognizing different ways people have collected that they sometimes try to sell on eBay but it could come to pass but let us face it, you and I aren't going to do it.
1:03:55
SM: The key thing is as a person who ran an underground paper all these years what pressures did you receive from the public to shut you down ever. I mean, did you when we talked about individuals being watched by the FBI and the CIA, whether it be you, Abbie, Jerry and others, what, what were they doing in respect to the underground papers? Were they doing the same things to editors around the country and were you worried about lawsuits? Because you are doing things that other papers are afraid to do.
1:04:32
PK: Well, first of all, The Realist never did any advertising. The weekly underground papers had big advertising from the cigarette companies, and the liquor companies and the government pressured them stop the advertising, which helped diminish the underground papers. You know, I got threats and certainly the FBI attempted to harass but the serious ones, the book to read unless you wanted to interview Abe Peck goes into a lot of detail about the pressures and the harassment and the sabotage of underground papers. But I was, and those that have had problems I would sometimes do benefits for papers who were having trouble but you know the details of how the pressure and the hassling came about are revealing. You know, while the FBI was accusing us of being a conspiracy, they were the conspiracy. Conspiring to diminish whatever effect on the underground papers had.
1:06:33
SM: Mm hmm. One of the things too and I am going to get to some of the general questions here in a minute that I asked a lot of other people, but one of the things I admired about the yippies from afar was their ̶ the way; their theatrical efforts. Because when I was in college guerrilla theater was very important. Something we do not ever see today. I do not if you were talking about guerrilla theater in college campuses today, they would say what the heck is that? But I have a book that noted a lot of the participants of the (19)60s are actually interviewed in is the importance of guerrilla theater in the whole (19)60s and (19)70s era on college campuses. And actually, when you think about the yippies, you are thinking about massive guerrilla theater. Just your thoughts on whose idea was it to come up with these skits? I know you did the, talked about the Wall Street, the dollar bills, levitating the Pentagon, but coming up with colorful outfits and some of the things! Like I saw Jerry, when he came to Ohio State, Jerry Rubin, he came there one night and he look just like he does right here in the front cover of Do It. No different. And he gave he gave a tremendous speech. The place was packed and he had so much passion I will never forget! They gave him a standing ovation. But whose idea was it to do the theater part? Did you did you have practice?
1:08:13
PK: When the House of American Activities Committee came to the bay area and Jerry was going to testify. This was his first encounter with using that kind of theater. And there was the San Francisco mime troupe. And Jerry had a meeting with Ronnie Davis who ran the troupe and it was Ronnie Davis who suggested to Jerry that he go to the hearings dressed in a revolutionary costume from the American Revolution. Which he did and we have got a lot of attention and then Jerry would make comments about what was going on with the playing the American Revolution. But I asked him one time, I said, Jerry, how did you feel actually doing that? He said, I felt like an asshole but I had to do it. Because he has an example, could break through, others could break through. You know, that was a lot of feedback that I got about doing The Realist, people said to me, you know, I saw that lightning did not strike you and so it made me freer. I mean, this was people who were in mainstream media. Who said that it gave them a little show to be a little bit more risky?
1:10:14
SM: I think that is what George Carlin said to today, I was reading something about that. When he was younger that did what Lenny Bruce did and what you did and others did was made him feel hopeful.
1:10:30
PK: I do not know. No, no, it was Kurt Vonnegut who said that The Realist made him feel hopeful. Carlin said, and he wrote and then Vonnegut said it in an introduction to one of my books, the Winner of a Slow Bicycle Race. But the Carlin quote came from an introduction he had written to another one of the books Murder at the Conspiracy Convention and in that he described how it was impossible for him to read The Realist without feeling inspired. So you know, that was one of the most honorable things that have been said about my work. I was very touched. And particularly because Carlin in turn inspired so many people who have never heard of The Realist, so it is kind of you know, you throw your pebble into the stream and then it makes its own ripple.
1:11:33
SM: Yes, yes. One of the things that the tragic things of this period is I was interviewing a professor last week Dr. Petchesky at Hunter College and we were talking about I said, I have always brought up, I bring up in some of the interviews Abbie Hoffman's suicide, and the note that he left because I remember he died over here in Bucks County not far from where I live.
1:12:04
PK: But wait a minute. I do not think he left a note.
1:12:11
SM: Well, I will have to look it up, but it was from the press I think at that time, he said no one was listening to me anymore was in the note. I got the article.
1:12:25
PK: I will um, it might be true, but I am sorry if I had not known that I was under the impression, huh.
1:12:32
SM: But what I am getting at is that Abbie Hoffman committed suicide, Phil Ochs committed suicide, this professor's husband had committed suicide and he was a big anti-war Professor up at Wellesley College, because he was so upset about the war, people were not ending it and he did himself in. And then of course, I interviewed Lewis Poehler and he committed suicide as well. A Vietnam vet even though it was in 1994. My question is this. When I asked this to this professor last week, Dr. Petchesky she said, you have got to understand that when you are dealing with all these personalities in this particular era of American history, there is a lot of other things going on in their lives besides just what you see the anti-war or civil rights activities over there. They could have depression, they could have manic disorders. There is a lot of other things. And also, there is so I do not know what your thoughts were because you were close to Abbie and you knew Phil Ochs. And I remember one hearing that Phil Ochs, I believe killed himself as well. When I think of Abbie, I and that note that was in the supposedly attached to the article, it said, no one is listening to me anymore. And to me that struck me right in the heart because here is a man that I believe dedicated his entire life to doing good things, even though he may have been theatrical at times. If you saw him on Phil Donahue, when he came out of hiding, you saw the real Abbie Hoffman, who cared about saving the Hudson River and doing so many good things. And then feel that here is a man who says that no one is listening to me anymore. And I like he had two thousand dollars in the bank. I mean, it is like, unbelievable, just your thoughts on the loss of Abbie and Phil Ochs.
1:14:32
PK: Two thousand, that is a lot. [laughs]
1:14:35
SM: Yeah, well, those are that I remember that in because he lived in Bucks County.
1:14:39
PK: Yeah. Well, you know, it was always the loss of a personal friend. At the same time, the loss to the culture of what more they could have contributed. And because they were public figures, I got calls from the media asking for some kind of comment. And I had to put my grief on hold in order to kind of respond. And so you know you cannot. No one can experience the pain of someone else's suffering. Unless they suffer it themselves and you can identify with them but you feel pain that you cannot stop their pain but anybody that takes their own lives it is both cowardly and courageous, simultaneous. And Abbie had been on some meds and went off of them which had something to do with it. That is the thing about antidepressants they have tools because they give you suicidal tendencies and he had been he had been diagnosed as a manic depressive and clinically and so whereas Phil Ochs had incredible stomach pain and when he was in Africa, his throat had been slit and affected the singing and to a certain extent that nobody is listening to me anymore was in his case how some people thought he was better than Bob Dylan and but still Phil had outshone him and it was a disappointment. So, you know, these are just human emotions and human nature and the only way I can handle it is that I was grateful to be here when they were here. And in a way, they are still touchstones. You know, I will think of something that I might say on stage and this is the touchstone of Lenny is will be: hey come on, do not do that, it is a cheap shot. I mean, there was a point where I thought that I was channeling Lenny till one time that I said, come on Paul, know, you do not believe in that shit. So then I no longer channeled him. And Ken Keesey, he still appears in dreams. But you know it is just a projection of my memory of them. I do not give it any mystical, so, you know and but these are all people who have inspired us and as Dylan said, What can be better than inspiring unless you are Charles Manson and you are inspiring others. [laughs]
1:18:46
SM: Yeah, I did not even know Abbie Hoffman but, the mere fact that people have criticized him not during this interview process but people that I know through my life, and I read some of his books and I saw him on TV I always considered him a lot different than Jerry Rubin. And in so many ways because I felt that he had the gift of humor, like you do. And I can remember reading in certain books that even inmates, even the police liked him, because he made the police laugh.
1:19:26
PK: Oh, yeah,
1:19:27
SM: He made people feel good. They may not have liked the other guys, they may not have liked Tom Hayden, or Jerry Rubin or Dave Bellinger or whatever. They may not have liked them for certain reasons, but they somehow even his enemies kind of liked him. Because it was the way of who he was how he talked to people. He made them laugh.
1:19:48
PK: In "Confession" I described them. I said that Abbie was, that Jerry was the right lobe of the brain and Abbie, I am sorry, I am sorry. Jerry was the left lobe of the brain and Abbie was the right lobe of the brain. Jerry would calculate things and Abbie would just be spontaneous.
1:20:19
SM: Wow.
1:20:20
PK: Abbie was truly witty and Jerry he once told me that he would listen to a Lenny Bruce album before he went out to make a speech but you know, you cannot capture that it is not something you can set a trap for. Okay, now I have humor in there.
1:20:48
SM: Yeah, the spontaneity you going to have it or you do not.
1:20:52
PK: Yeah, I mean, I do not, you know one of my oxymoronic maximums is: practice spontaneity.
1:21:05
SM: A couple of general questions I have here because this is a book on the boomers and all the things you are talking about is have taken place in boomer lives and people experience these personalities in your work as well. When in your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
1:21:28
PK: Well, for me, it began in 1958 when I launched The Realist and it ended I think in 1974? When Nixon resigned? Okay. How important do you think the, I have been asking this question is for college students in ending the Vietnam War? It might have been (19)95. I am not sure but anyway, whatever year it was, that was it.
1:22:02
SM: Yes. (19)74.
1:22:04
PK: A nice symbolic ending.
1:22:09
SM: Let us see, the (19)60s begin and end? Yeah. The question is, how important are college students in ending the Vietnam War, in your opinion during the (19)60s and early (19)70s and how important were the yippies in this process? So some people, again, whether they are the liberals or the conservatives, because I have interviewed a lot of conservatives and they have a totally different opinion. That is what is great about this book project. They have all different thoughts, but what parts did the yippies play in ending that war in Vietnam? And what part did the college students play?
1:22:50
PK: Hard give a percentage, but I think that the largest percent biggest percentage goes to the Vietcong. And, and who inspired the protesters in the state? You know? We were not in harm's danger the way they were. You know, it started with some black students who got shot down south in 1968, I am sorry, 1970. And, and then soon after that it in May that year, the Kent State killings occurred and this is, by the way the year this May be the fortieth anniversary of that.
1:23:44
SM: I am going to be there. Oh, you are?
1:23:47
PK: Yeah. You know I wrote a piece about that with the help of one of the one of the victims Allison Krause, her sister.
1:24:00
SM: Oh yes.
1:24:00
PK: Her sister Lauren, Laurel with her mother has been organizing this truth commission kind of thing for this fortieth anniversary so and because it was never quite understood why, like I can email you that article.
1:24:29
SM: Please do. I will be there for the first through the fourth.
1:24:36
PK: Yeah, it is going to be a powerful event but so many. Again, this is, you know, part of the history that people do not really know. I am sure it is not taught in Texas, I am sure it might only be bought locally in Ohio. Who knows! I remember that night watching the Walter Cronkite on CBS Evening News and he opened it was something like it finally happened. And you know, of course you think what finally happened? World peace suddenly? But he said how American students were shot dead by the National Guard and it was just a shock. Even though I have to admit that I said out loud, "good" and the reason was because I felt it happened already. Even while I thought that was a horrific tragedy, even while I felt that, I said that, because there was nothing I could do about it had already happened and now because I remember that shootings of the black students two months before that did not get much attention if at all, I mean, it got some but miniscule. And when I said good, I meant now they'll pay attention because these were four white students. Because I shocked myself when I said that and I had a, you know, think why did I, you know?
1:26:21
SM: The Kent State students were killed on the fourth of May and the African American students, the two that were killed at Jackson State eleven days later.
1:26:33
PK: They were killed at Jackson State?
1:26:35
SM: Yeah, they were killed at Jackson State. I think it was eleven days later.
1:26:41
PK: Oh, okay. I was not sure of the chronology. But in any case, you know, that only strengthens the point I was trying to make, which is that the white students will be much more attention paid to them than the black students so you would think, that is not to make less or to negate the killing of the whites but you know.
1:27:24
SM: I have to change my tape. Al right, we are back. One of the questions I have been asking.
1:27:37
PK: Oh, by the way it was not the Hudson River it was the St. Lawrence River that Abbie was working on.
1:27:44
SM: Oh that Abbie was working on? Yeah, yeah because you remember when he went on the Phil Donahue show? He was in Seattle I believe. Phil was on the road. I was living in the Bay Area from (19)76 to (19)83 and I remember when he came on, and he had been in hiding. So this is the first time we would come out. And he had an operation on his nose so he looked a little bit different and he was remarried. And he had been living with his. I thought I had been on the Hudson, but the St. Lawrence then and he had been really working hard to save the river and he had been doing it for quite a few years under a different name.
1:28:23
PK: Yeah, the name he used underground which was Barry Freed.
1:28:27
SM: Right. The question I have been asking you we took students to Washington D.C. in the mid (19)90s and we met Edmund Muskie, it was at that (19)68 convention. The students, none of them were born obviously at that time, but we came up with a question about healing. Because there was a perception that America was coming close to a second Civil War. I remember reading about it. Some people say yes, some people say no, but the divisions are so intense, and they even came about at that convention in Chicago. And of course, it was the year the two assassinations and the president resigning and then Tet took place early in the year. And the question was this, with all the divisions between black and white, gay and straight male and female, both who for the war those who are against the war, those who supported the troops, those who did not, and all the divisions that took place, do you feel senator Muskie that we were close to a second civil war? And do you feel that this generation of seventy-four plus million people will go to their graves like the Civil War generation, not healing? And I will tell you, the senator's response after, I would like to hear your response. Whether you think we have an issue with healing in this nation, within that seventy some generation. And of course, let me say this, Paul, I consider you a boomer even though you were born in thirty-two. When I interviewed Richie Havens, who was born in 1940, he said, I have always considered a lot of people do not like these terms, boomers and Generation X and all this other stuff. But there is a linkage between generations of people who think alike and who were influenced by. And many of the leaders of the antiwar movement were born between 1940 and (19)46. They were not boomers that were defined as people born in (19)46. So what I call our pre-boomers, and pre-boomers are people who have ideas that were very influential on the generation that came about after World War II. So do you feel that as a nation we have a problem with healing?
1:30:58
PK: But you are not talking about when Muskie said it.
1:31:02
SM: I am going to let you know what Muskie be said in response to that question.
1:31:06
PK: I see. I see.
1:31:07
SM: But do you feel we have an issue with healing?
1:31:11
PK: Now? But you mean now?
1:31:13
SM: Yes right now.
1:31:15
PK: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. But the first thing the prerequisite for healing is to acknowledge what needs to be healed and the reaction to Obama's health care plan is the prime example of the hostility for, racism which was, even though it will be denied and even though he won the presidency there is another civil war. It is that the first civil war never ended. And it has come to the surface.
1:32:15
SM: Guess what?
1:32:16
PK: I, you know, I thought there would be another revolution. I did not know what would be the Tea Baggers. But it is not a revolution. So I am just saying because I wrote that article contacting Abbie Hoffman and Glenn Beck.
1:32:35
SM: You are right on target Paul because what happened is Senator Muskie said he thought he was the same guy that we saw who cried on TV, which many people felt that he was not a man and he could not be president. He had tears in his eyes and he could not respond right away. He waited a minute. And the students really admired him for this. And he said, we have not healed since the Civil War, and he said he had just saw the Ken Burns series on television. He died six months later too. He was not well, he had just gotten out of the hospital. And he said that that series touched me because we lost 440,000 men. And if you consider the percentage of the population of America at that time, we almost lost an entire generation, particularly in the south. And so, he said, we had not healed since the Civil War, talking about racial issues and the divide between North and South. And so I have gotten a lot of different responses. And he did not even he did not even respond to (19)68.
1:33:43
PK: Muskie, I mean, everybody interprets events through the prism of their own subjectivity. And so I know conspiracy researchers who said, oh, yes, one of Nixon's men, slipped a tab of LSD this is something that Muskie set adrift. Other people had said that there were variety but, but the one thing that occurs to me and I can understand it because when I was just talking about Keesey before, I almost teared up. And what happened was Muskies opponent had said something about the Senator's wife. Yes. And he said when you do that, you know, then you are not too far from like that and that was when he started, you know, weeping a little bit. Now of course, that would be considered. I mean, that was just sort of sexism really. Because it was okay for women to cry but not a real macho man. And so if someone was to do that now, it would be considered a good healthy thing. And even a sign of respect. And I think what was that movie one of my favorite movies and I forget the name, not network. Broadcast was it? It was where William Hurt.
1:35:30
SM: Oh!
1:35:31
PK: Got fired from a show because he had tears flowing down his eyes listening to somebody but, but it was ̶
1:35:42
SM: Mmmm.
1:35:43
PK: It was edited in to that that context, and I think he did it later. But it was it was that kind of thing now, you know, it was, if Mitt Romney could cry at will he would do it.
1:35:58
SM: Well one of the other issues that I have been trying to solve, I just wanted to say too that it is interesting that Obama prefers to distance himself from the (19)60s generation. All the time, he said, I am not the (19)60s. Yet he was criticized by many of his opponents, by thinking that he is bringing back to the (19)60s with his mentality being way to the left. So I find it interesting that we have a leader who wants to distance himself from that era, of that well actually, the boomer generation and yet he has been criticized by his opponents as bringing it back. So talk about an oxymoron here.
1:36:38
PK: Well, but, you know, that the thing about giving names to decades and generations, is that it is not that clear cut and so he spoke like, you know, I was going to say, like a true Boomer but you know, the protestors is really were just a small percentage of the boomers. I mean, it was not, a lot of people kind of stick it together and they are boomer bashing instead of (19)60s bashing.
1:37:17
SM: But what is interesting is he actually is a boomer, if you look at the terms because it was those born between (19)46 and (19)64, was not he born in (19)64?
1:37:26
PK: Oh, so I, you know, in the novel of writing, the narrator is a female reporter who was born in (19)64, and her mother was born in (19)46 so ̶
1:37:40
SM: Oh!
1:37:41
PK: So they book end.
1:37:43
SM: Oh, yeah.
1:37:44
PK: And have a lot in common because they communicate not because of the year they were born. But the Obama thing, I think it is more of attitude that you know, Obama was the first politician admitted to smoking marijuana and somebody said you know what you inhaled, or you enjoyed it. And he said, well that was the point. Not saying oh, I experimented with it like all the other young guys, but he did it because he liked getting high. You know so that depicted that aging hippies could identify with was him no matter what, what generation they were part of.
1:38:40
SM: The other issue I bring up besides healing is the issue of trust. And this boomer generation seems to be a very a generation that doesn't trust for obvious reasons, seeing so many leaders had lied to them during their lifetime. Whether it be President Johnson or the Gulf of Tonkin certainly Watergate with Richard Nixon. Nobody trusted Gerald Ford when he was giving a pardon to Nixon. Eisenhower lied about the U2. There were things about President Kennedy and what happened in Vietnam. That were suspicious. And there is another even as boomers have aged, there has been things that leaders have done, but you cannot trust them. Is that a good quality to have within a generation is the lack of trust? Because I think a lot of people will say that that generation, if you talk about a quality, they just do not they did not trust people.
1:39:40
PK: Well, I and I think they have earned the distrust. I mean, it has become a given now, you know, it was not even what was the ̶ what was surprising, about John McCain, saying that he was never considered himself a maverick is that there is all this footage of him identifying himself as a maverick, and even using the word in the title of his autobiography! That was how shameless these politicians are. But you cannot generalize and that was why so many people thought, who voted for Obama, thought that he was, that he really did give people hope, a hope for change. And so, you know, I have got back and forth disappointment. Now I am pleased by this, I am disappointed by that. Because if he got into the presidency, under the delusion that it could be bipartisan and, you know, I think it is so evil of the republicans to have voted against the health care process, not because they truly believed it, but because the name of the game was to give Obama his Waterloo at the expense of the countless people who have ever suffer and die because of that. And so it is no wonder that people are discouraged and cynical.
1:41:44
SM: And it is difficult for you to say but you have had a lot of people who have friends who are boomers in this age group you have seen throughout your lifetime. And by looking at them you think they have been good parents and grandparents and respect to two things. Number one sharing history and what it was like when they were younger and in making comparisons between then and now. And secondly, the activism that was seemed to be so prevalent within this generation. And again, I get criticized when I keep saying the boomers are only 15 percent we are probably activists of the seventy-four million. But still, that is a lot of people.
1:42:23
PK: And it has always been that way that the majority of people have a certain sheepishness about them. And it was Margaret Mead, who says, you know, individually, small groups of people can sometimes accomplish more. So it is not numbers but in the attitude of the public attention and having them ̶ see the contradiction. Its leadership.
1:43:05
SM: Yeah, you had a great quote in fact I got one chapter in the Grateful Dead Play the Pyramids. You have a line at the end of a paragraph here "what we need to do now", and this you are doing this with your beautiful satire though, "what we need to do now is hire Mexican workers as guest protesters so they can do the job that Americans do not want to do". And you were referring to the Bush administration and what was going on in the war in Iraq and making some comparisons. There was a draft during the Vietnam War now there is not really anything now of comparison. So that to me, is not that what you are really saying here?
1:43:49
PK: Oh, wait, did I say that in the context of the Grateful Dead?
1:43:53
SM: No, it was in the chapter. It was in the section the parts left out Chicago Ten.
1:44:00
PK: Oh yeah the Chicago Ten movement.
1:44:02
SM: Yeah. Yeah, I just think that is a beautiful statement, although people from people could miss read it, but that is to me it is satire and it hits it in a way that it connects truth.
1:44:17
PK: But I have said that on stage and the audience laughs and it is the kind of laugh that moves into applause because they take an image of you know, hiring of Mexican workers to march since, they have had proof of it in Los Angeles. But I do not, you know, I am used to being misunderstood. I want to be understood. But I think it was ̶ who said, please do not understand me too quickly. And that is one of the risks of trying to be as free as you can. Is being misunderstood and but, you know it. And that is why there is a need for damage control. [laughs] Or as I said that Toyota has borrowed McDonald's slogan, you deserve a break today. But you know a lot of the things or for the pope excommunicates himself, you know, a devout Catholic, might be offended by that, but you know, I cannot. It is just that that is the simple statement, you cannot please everybody. So, you know, any artist usually they want to reach as many people as possible but when it gets commercial art, then you kind of aim to a lower common denominator. And so I tried to aim for the highest common denominator and Dan O'Neill, a cartoonist said something real. And he said we have to remember we are not ̶ we are not fearless. And meaning that you know, that I thought my job as articulating the consciousness of the readers that I was just I had an outlet, before the internet, we are now the outlet and the creativity and imagination and insight and abilities of these citizen reporters and citizen video makers have make everybody an investigative reporter, or anybody can. You know, it helps to have training, but if you get a story that a ̶ journalist can all the better. The more the information there is, the more opportunities for people who deal in disinformation. To counteract it. I mean, that is the whole thing is that that really that we talked about that the republicans in cahoots with the pharmaceutical and the insurance industries have a tremendous propaganda machine and the only thing scarier than that is how many people swallow the line of that propaganda and it was disheartening. I mean, there are still people who think that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 911 even though it was finally denied. So, but you know, I think it was Mel Brooks says 95 percent of everything is bad. So it could be with, whether it is the movies or TV or Twitter, or whatever the medium is. And so if there was a, an ebb and a flow of power, you know, I did not even know the pope had approval ratings one way or the other, but, but it is being lowered now. Oh my god. Yes. So you know, it is so it is one big popularity contest and, public relations can hurt or help.
1:49:40
SM: Obviously, you are a little bit older and so was Jerry and Abbie and some of the Merry Pranksters, they were a little bit older. What when they were seeing these young people coming up on college campuses in the mid to late (19)60s and of course, SDS and the black power movement. And the women's movement then in the early, late (19)60s, early (19)70s, the gay and lesbian movement, the environmental movement, the Chicano movement, Native American, I mean, they all kind of came about same time. Some of them were, some of the leaders were followers were the younger ones but did you ever sit down as a group? And not just talk strategy but talk about what you thought about the generation known as the boomers. Did you think they were intellectually had generation just seen before? Were they smart? Were they knowledgeable? Were they courageous? What may have been some of the positive and negative thoughts you had on the generation?
1:50:52
PK: I do not think we ever referred then as the boomers.
1:50:55
SM: Okay.
1:50:57
PK: I do not know when the use of that term really started. Or, when it was popularized. We thought more of them in terms of their belief system and how they acted on it. And I say how they acted on it because I was a militant atheist. Until I realized at a certain point that Martin Luther King who had agreed to be interviewed by me, but the assassination interrupted that possibility. But he was but he, he was a Christian. And I interviewed George Lincoln Rockwell, the head of the American Nazi Party, and he considers himself an agnostic. So the epiphany for me was that it really did not make any difference. What anybody believed it was just how they treated others, you know, ultimately and so for your question there, oh about sitting around and boomers and so it was just easy, you know, either they were not for some it was whether they did psychedelics or not, and those were the students but it was really about I guess the closest encounter I had to that was with my brother who was while I was protesting about the war he was involved with selling helicopters that were being used Vietnam. And, so I, I felt that he was not an evil person I knew that and that he had a high security level, level of clearance and which almost was damaged by my being his brother. But, the thing is that he once said that in his lines of work that he was trying to make himself replaceable, you know, you could continue to drop along the line and I said oh, I was trying to make myself irreplaceable. So in other words, where he was talking about what was the kind of the machine grinding on and it was and so there was a level of conformity you have to do you know when you are in the corporate empire and so he was part of that scene and yet his contribution was perhaps greater than mine which was he was the co-author of the first textbook on space communication and he could appreciate the irony that people would come up to him and say you are Paul Krassner’s brother. And you know, it was only because I did stuff that got me the attention and he did not. But and so that is why that is why whatever level of fame I have, I do not take it seriously because it has nothing to do with, with me it has to do with whatever people's image of me is so because I try not to take the criticism personally, in the same sense I do not take the praise personally, just because I know if I want to praise somebody else's work, it is just an expression of my appreciation and it connects me with that person. But I have learned, you know, once I got passed my false humility that it was a mutual thing that all these people that I fell in with from Abbie Hoffman to Tim Leary, Ram Daas, Ken Kesey, that there was a mutuality, you know, we respected each other. And that was not a one way thing like, you know, a fan and the celebrity.
1:56:12
SM: Okay. You just liked being around each other.
1:56:16
PK: Liked what?
1:56:17
SM: You just like being around each other.
1:56:19
PK: Ah, yeah, yeah, it was. You know, it was interesting because a lot of these leaders were serious but they all had a sense of playfulness too you know, as I discovered when I was at some party, there were a lot of new age gurus. And I had just been covering the Patty Hearst trial and standing around in the kitchen at this party and the gurus were talking about some of the difficulties they will have with their servants and I said you know, that was just what I what the Hearsts were talking about. So, you know, that was my role. To be a court jester.
1:57:11
SM: Do you think it was a mistake for Jerry Rubin to say do not trust anyone over thirty, he was twenty-nine when he said it. I know somebody who will say that is the most one of the most ridiculous statements ever because he was one year away from being thirty himself.
1:57:26
PK: Well, it is a mistake to believe that Jerry Rubin said it.
1:57:30
SM: Okay.
1:57:31
PK: It was said by Jack Weinberg at the free speech movement that sort of triggered the free speech movement. He had been arrested and was in a police car on the Berkeley campus, which got surrounded by students. The police cars could not move. And then other people were jumping on top of the police car and bouncing on it. And then he was in the backseat ok, officers are in the front at this point.
1:58:12
SM: So he was the one that said it.
1:58:14
PK: I always think that, I knew what he meant. I knew what he meant. I, you know, I, and I knew it was ageist and I knew it was a generalization and argued against it. You know, I argued that you needed people on the inside, if we were over thirty, like Daniel Ellsberg, who released defense who was in a position to really defend risk takers.
1:58:35
SM: Right, right.
1:58:36
PK: So I tried my best not to generalize like that, but it was it was a statement. It was rhetoric really. And, it was just, it was just kind of acknowledging that there was a certain generation gap. But it was not meant that literally any more when Abbie Hoffman said kill your parents, and he had two kids, and he was not wanting them to kill him, and Jerry Rubin borrowed that. And Jerry Rubin was an orphan so it was a moot point. And, you know, there was some rivalry between them and the National Enquirer picked up Jerry saying that and he was on the front page of the Enquirer, the picture of Jerry saying, and the headline was something like: Yippie leader says "kill your parents."
1:59:38
SM: Oh, my gosh!
1:59:41
PK: I objected to it. Ironically, because it would be misunderstood but it was obviously a historical metaphor about it was like when I when I left college with only three credits needed to graduate, one course. I was killing my parents, in a sense, in that sense. I mean, that is the sense it meant, symbolically. Not living up to the vision that they had, that you would become.
2:00:19
SM: Well, I know that Miri Savio, when the leader will always the main speaker of that movement. He is ̶ there is a brand new book out it is a very good book by Dr. Croen from NYU, I encourage you to read it. It is a great book. And he talks about the fact that it was the differences there was that his generation, that generation of the Free Speech Movement was we were a generation of ideas. And we are not a generation of careers like our parents. And that was the big split right there. And I interviewed Arthur Chickering, the great educator who wrote Education and Identity which was a textbook used in higher education, the early (19)70s and when I interviewed him, he was telling me the biggest weakness today in the university is we have gone back to exactly what it was before the Free Speech Movement we would become a corporate University again. And that is his biggest criticism as an educator is the corporations are priority number one in higher education and of course, Clark Kerr's Multiversity, and he explained that back then the students were trying to change it, but I guess what goes around comes around again. I have a couple more questions here. How long were you involved with Ken Kesey's Merry Pranksters? Who were they and why are they important as cultural figures?
2:01:47
PK: Well, Let us see. I did not go on the bus trip. But Kesey always said you are either on the bus or off the bus but he said to me, you were on the bus even though you were not on the bus. And so it was about, I met him first, he had read The Realist and Kesey told me that when I published the issue with the parts of that out of the Kennedy book, which had to do with an act of presidential necrophilia, in a context built up in literary form of apocrypha so that started to think it was totally true and then things that were known by reporters but not by the general public, and then things that were happening and leading up to this climactic scene. And so, Neal Cassidy who was driving the bus and one day he was reading this and he handed back issue too Kesey and said and fit, hey chief, you better take a look at this. And, so we knew of each other's work and then I met him for the first time at the Berkeley campus during the first Vietnam feature and which I was emceeing and he came up to me and continued a conversation that had never started. He did not introduce himself, he just came up and said his wife, you know, Fay was just as saying; because the connection already existed before we actually met and I mean, I was fortunate to have a magazine where I could meet these people and interview them and you know, and they would and I could never have that opportunity interacting with it without the magazine. And so the point I was going to make. It will come back.
2:04:37
SM: The Merry Pranksters?
2:04:39
PK: Well anyway, and then that was I think around (19)65 maybe. And then in 1970, I got a call from Stewart Brand, publishing the Whole Earth Catalog and he had asked Kesey to edit the last supplement for the Whole Earth Catalog, and Kesey said he would do it if I could co-edit it with them and so Brand called me up and asked me that and I remember answering yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! And when I moved to the west coast San Francisco and then Venice Beach. And so we became close friends during that time when we were putting out preparing the last supplements. And then I spent a lot of, we would spend Christmas there sometimes and my daughter Holly and I would, that is how Holly became part of the extended family and, and then I did go on, there was a reunion bus trip and I went, I did go on that. But until we get to the heart of your question what the original bus trip went across country. It looked like you know, kids used to want to run away with the circus this way they wanted to hitch a ride on, on the bus further, right? It was colorful. It was humorous. It was gentle. It was like a traveling the guerrilla theater and the people who joined in became part of it. You know, we just hung around and talk to people on the bus or marvel about all of the paintings that were around it and so it was it was a certain kind of, it turns people on. And, you know, it was like a movie, you know the colorful gas, but with these colorful figures popping out it was like aliens in a way. And I remember on the on the reunion trip Kesey was at the back of the bus and he was filling balloons with helium and with a string attached and giving them to kids and this woman and her young son came by and he gave one and the mother gave Kesey a quarter. And he said, with a smile, so she would know he was kidding. He said, "what a quarter? I am a famous author, madam." And she did this double take she did not know whether she had embarrassed him or, or whether she should give him $1.00 was a nice moment, as it was, you know, it was revealing his personality that he was doing that he did not assign it to somebody.
2:08:22
SM: Right.
2:08:23
PK: And, and he was he was always gregarious. He and I did a lot of events together and then we would hang around with the college booking people or whoever organized the event. And Kesey said that was really part of the deal so they could hang around. And it was true. And humbling, you know, which brings me right back to your original question about how I felt about my life. You know, whether I was proud of it and it was more of more, more gratitude than pride. And you know, both often as an atheist, you know, I, I still felt gratitude but there was a phrase I used in one of my books The Tell Tales of Kung Foo about a man with a fifteen inch Schwanz and very popular with the ladies.
2:09:36
SM: Hmm.
2:09:37
PK: And one of the characters in that says, God never says you are welcome. And I thought yeah that that, that that summed it up. I am in awe of nature and of evolution and lately becoming almost as much in awe of technology.
2:10:00
SM: Of course Ken Kesey he was a great writer too, yeah a great writer. Because of your work with The Realist and your magazine articles and everything and books you were able to link up with these people. You linked up with the Beats. I know there is things in there about Allen Ginsberg and obviously some of the Merry Pranksters, I think. Neal Cassidy was one, I believe, and um, how important were the Beats? I know there is this section in one of your books where Jack Kerouac is asked about whether the Beats were part of a social movement of protests, and he said, no, we were just, we were not about social protest. And he disagreed with Allen Ginsberg on this, on some sort of a panel.
2:10:48
PK: It was not a panel, this was at the twenty-fifth anniversary of the publication of On the Road.
2:10:53
SM: Right.
2:10:53
PK: And it was in Golden, Colorado at Naropa, the Buddhist College.
2:11:01
SM: Yes.
2:11:02
PK: I was a moderator and the panelists were William Burroughs, Allen Ginsberg, Abbie Hoffman and Tim Leary.
2:11:07
SM: Is that on tape? That should be a documentary that should be on tape! That should be seen! Golly!
2:11:15
PK: I probably have a cassette of that particular panel.
2:11:20
SM: Wow.
2:11:22
PK: And I quoted from it in ̶ biography and it was so it was, so Ginsberg and Abbie were, were arguing about whether the, this panel title has something to do with, with a socially activist ̶
2:11:47
SM: Mm hmm.
2:11:48
PK: And, and Abbie's, Allen's point was that Kerouac and the Beats, they were neither winning nor losing this conspiracy. And Abbie argued, you know, that you were being political, when, when you hired that case that that lawyer obscenity case you wanted to win so, and that was Abbie's point of view. And I asked as moderator when Ginsberg had said that, I asked Abbie, well I forget how I phrased it but I quoted Abbie for quoting Che Guevara who said in a revolution one wins or dies. And so, so it was really a discussion about not winning or losing but winning and losing were kind of equal in the sense and it gave me a flashback to when I was an adolescent. And I played baseball and basketball. And I never cared if my team won or not. I just played my best, you know, it has just been because I was obsessed with infinite time and space, it would give me a headache. So I, you know, and so a game like that, you know, I could understand how people get disappointed or get thrilled, depending on whether they lost or won.
2:13:28
SM: Right.
2:13:30
PK: But, you know, ultimately it was just a game. And unfortunately, that is the way the politicians are, going back to why there is much skepticism. To them it is just a game,
2:13:45
SM: Right.
2:13:45
PK: And the goal of the game is to get reelected and so and so their occupation has become fundraising.
2:13:59
SM: Appreciate it.
2:14:00
PK: It is simulating so you know.
2:14:02
SM: Yeah, your, your life is just like, I wish I was in person I could interview all day, eight hours. I mean, you got so much and I have so many questions here. And I am not going to get into all of them. But one of the things here is, it is, I am fascinated because you obviously are a very outgoing person because you have made so many friends in so many different areas, whether it be the yippies or the merry pranksters or the beats or writers all over the country. You name it. I even saw you on TV. I saw a video on TV where you were on a panel with the former mayor of San Francisco's daughter. She was on there you were reminiscing the (19)60s.
2:14:44
PK: Oh, wait was that Alioto?
2:14:50
SM: Yes, she [Angela Alioto] was she was the daughter of the mayor of San Francisco. She was on the panel. You spoke and she spoke in it and she made a comment about you know, the she her dad kind of hid her from things, but she had to sneak out to enjoy the (19)60s as a seventeen year old or something like that.
2:15:07
PK: That is right. Yep. I remember at a dinner party that my daughter gave where I told her about, when I had a radio show in San Francisco. Her dad was going to be somebody, the producer arranged for him. No it was not arranged. I did not have a producer, it was that they were on tour with the mayor and his bodyguard, whoever they were ̶ And he and he wanted to be on the program ̶ perform an interview, but I was but I was told that I could not ask a certain question about some rent control or some question that he had been involved in. And I said if I cannot ask him that I am not going to interview him for that. So I think a guy from the news department interviewed him instead.
2:16:12
SM: Oh my gosh!
2:16:14
PK: I got a kick out of that.
2:16:17
SM: One of the things about Timothy Leary, of course, Ram Daas, I did not know that he had a stroke. He was that I saw him on television just the other day on some sort of a documentary. But one of the things when I interviewed people, and I mentioned these names at the very end for just responses and comments. I have not gotten one positive on Timothy Leary. Everybody's negative about them in every single way. And when they mentioned Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman, and occasionally some people talk about Abbie and nobody will ever say anything positive about Jerry Rubin. But the question is this, he is known for his slogan "tune in, turn on, drop out" and for a lot of people that believed that the ̶ (19)60s was all about not tuning in turning on and dropping out but about being out there on the front lines like the yippies were. Seems like that is even counter to yippie thinking that you can turn on, yes. But to drop out? Just your thoughts on that slogan and whether that is really hurt his image overall beyond his links to drugs because that is the biggest negative.
2:17:35
PK: First of all, since You have gotten, let me first say, you know, I have positive things to say about Abbie. Positive things to say about Jerry Rubin and Jerry Rubin got criticized a lot because he became a yuppie.
2:17:51
SM: Yep.
2:17:52
PK: And they went around, toured the map, Abbie and Jerry went around having debates, the yippies versus the yuppies which I moderated. At one point, I made a remark that they were throwing money in the stock exchange. Today, that means then, this time Jerry would invest it. And of course Leary, Leary was a friend and I have positive things to say about him. You know, the point is that people remember what the media said about them. And I just know one thing that Kesey said to me, we were talking about his image. And he said, and he said, the difference between his energy and his image, my energy is what I do. My image is what people think I do.
2:18:51
SM: Mmm.
2:18:52
PK: And so that is, that is the way it is, and people get used to shorthand used to describe people and it becomes like a quick caricature. And you know, or the movies I have seen whether it is a biopic about Billie Holiday or Lenny or others that I might know personally, it is always difficult. I did not know Billie Holiday but the thing happened to her but people who did see the movie were horrified by how it left out the basic truth but he died on the way to the hospital because other hospitals would not admit her because she was black. And that was not in the movie. How could it not be? And so the same thing with Lenny and the same thing with a movie about Abbie, and so people get the images from the entertainment rather than from history.
2:19:53
SM: Mm hmm.
2:19:54
PK: And so what exactly was your question then?
2:20:01
SM: It was whether you think that that philosophy have "tune in, turn on, drop out" it seems to be a negative term and just about everybody I have spoken to. You know, when I mentioned the name, that is all they think of is "tune in, turn on, drop out".
2:20:18
PK: [Inaudible]
2:20:19
SM: And even on television a week ago, you might even be able to find it on CNN, they were up at Harvard University, and they were interviewing college students at Harvard, they said, did you know that the LSD was started here at Harvard? And the students were saying, yes, yes, I know. But then some said, do you want to talk about it? Have you ever taken it? And some said, yes. And another said, no. And then some would say, I am not going to talk about it. And they all knew who Timothy Leary was, but there was a perception that it was a negative for Harvard. That was the bottom line.
2:20:57
PK: Yeah, and understood. That you know, they have no inclination of countercultural history. Even though it is part of history, it is marginalized. And so it is understandable, you know, there is probably people now who think that Abbie Hoffman is the Congresswoman from upstate you know, and it is their fault. But they cannot be resented for it, they just did not learn about it and the more time goes on the more there is to learn and is unlearned. You know, that is unfortunate, but the people that they did influence are the better for it. And you cannot win them all. Or you cannot lose them all.
2:21:55
SM: Right. The one thing I have here and again, these are just direct questions to you. Do you think your links to the issue hurts your effectiveness as a cultural critic as a satarist now and I am might even be saying with Tim Leary's image, the idea here is that drugs take you away from reality? Do not you have to be in reality to change it? And, I know I have read your books and I understand the experience and some writers say they can even write better on marijuana or LSD, some of these other experiences. But do you think people are ever going to understand drugs and understand not only obviously a part of history, but the effect that has and there is still this all it is always negative, it is all negative?
2:22:48
PK: Well, that is because it goes back to the propaganda machine. The Partnership for Drug Free America was founded and funded by the alcohol, tobacco and pharmaceutical industries for all of whom a drug, a weed that you grow in your garden, your window garden for nothing was a threat to the economy, to their, their industry why would anybody if they had all the facts want to smoke cigarettes they have killed one thousand two hundred people a day or marijuana which gives you a good feeling and it is not addictive as cigarettes are and who and that make that allows people to be more social and they credit it as being an aid to creativity or ̶ or for medicine now that now that you seem to be on the point of it is possibly marijuana possibly becoming legal, and the right thing being done for the wrong reason you know they are not doing it as a as a moral imperative they are doing it because the country's going broke and so it has gotten bad press and but more and more, just like gays came out of the closet, people are coming, you know, Ellen DeGeneres was on the cover of Time saying yep, I am gay and it is possible that they'll have it a photo of somebody on the cover of Newsweek saying, yep, I am stoned. I think that will be an advance. Because as long as any government can arbitrarily decide which drugs are illegal or illegal, then anybody in prison on the on the nonviolent drug offense is a political prisoner. That is my position.
2:25:35
SM: Just a couple more, and then we are going to be done. Okay, now looking at the music of the era, you know, it is too much to ask you, you know, every musician that you are liked, but when you look at all of your experiences in the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and maybe the (19)80s, or even beyond, are there a few songs that stand out more than any other that you feel had the greatest influence? You personally maybe number two, the whether it be the merry pranksters or the yippies or just the boomer generation as a whole those born after (19)46 which musician which musicians and music or specific songs have the greatest impact.
2:26:20
PK: Oh, Let us see. I guess the one that comes to mind is John Lennon's Imagine.
2:26:32
SM: Mm hmm.
2:26:33
PK: Because, you know, it was outrageous to hear a song with "imagine no religion", and then here is played by muzak in an elevator. So you know, and I would love the Senate Glee Club singing “Imagine no possessions." But anyway, it was really ̶ song of uniting people rather than fighting at that song was really about. And, and I think that is what but no one either as a (19)60s generation or whatever. But whatever it is that the thing that stands out about that like Woodstock, that there was a sense of community and their sense of cooperation as opposed to competition. And, so those, those are the qualities that fight for advance and you know, there are there are people who say they are always good and evil. And um, but, but you know, and if that is true I remember once I was saying, it is never going to end and he said what? And I said when is it going to end this battle between good and evil. And my friend said, maybe never. And suddenly I was relieved. So, just do the best you can, instead of trying to save the world to start with yourself and work your way out.
2:28:54
SM: Very good advice.
2:28:55
PK: With the thought that the people that you have touched, will work their way out. And at least it is not so overwhelming a soul as to change world. You know. Socrates said, know thyself. Norman Mailer said "be thyself" and the counterculture said "change thyself."
2:29:24
SM: Hmm.
2:29:24
PK: But that that is the evolution of "know thyself"
2:29:29
SM: Essentially because I was coming right into the terms. I have probably half the interviews I have done and not the early one back in the late (19)90s. When I first started this, and that is, there were three terms that seemed to stand out symbolizing the boomer generation that grew up after 1946 to (19)64. And then asked people to respond to these three and then one came up, which was a fourth one. The first one was Malcolm X said "by any means as necessary" they were symbolizing the more radical, violent aspects that whether it be the Weatherman or some people; black power, the Black Panther Party or the Young Lords and the Chicano movement, what happened at the end of the AIM situation (19)73 at Wounded Knee. The second one was Bobby Kennedy, which was Henry David Thoreau's quotes. I do not usually get the quote 100 percent right but you do "some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and asked why not" which is symbolic.
2:30:36
PK: Bobby Kennedy said that.
2:30:37
SM: Yes, but it was originally a Henry David Thoreau quote.
2:30:41
PK: Oh, I did not realize.
2:30:42
SM: Yeah, and that symbolized the activism, the concept that I want to make a difference in this world and I am going to fight injustice and make the world a better place to live. And the third one was kind of what was on a Peter Max poster in 1971, which I thought was more of a hippie mentality, which was "you do your thing and I will do mine if by chance we should come together it will be beautiful." That was a Peter Max poster is saying I know that was very popular in (19)71. And the other one that came up from other people was We Shall Overcome symbolizing the civil rights movement. And the only other one that a few people have said is John Kennedy's "Ask not what your country can do for, ask what you can do for your country. And then the Timothy Leary too quote that I mentioned earlier, are there some quote You have already mentioned quite a few quotes today, even some of the yippie quotes and your quotes and is there a quote that you feel is also very important that defines the boomer generation?
2:31:48
PK: Not the boomers or the boomer generation, I was going to put people identified. Yes, it could be. With Harry Chapin the singer songwriter said "If you do not act like there is hope there is no hope."
2:32:03
SM: Hmm.
2:32:07
PK: And then there is my own which is "If you eat a pub sandwich at a delicatessen, be sure to take the toothpick out for your first bite."
2:32:19
SM: That is a good one.
2:32:20
PK: That is my philosophy.
2:32:21
SM: That is a very good one.
2:32:23
PK: You got to be practical before you get into the deep stuff.
2:32:28
SM: Right?
2:32:29
PK: If you have a bleeding upper palate, it is not no fun.
2:32:34
SM: It is a good point uh, Paul when you think of the ̶
2:32:37
PK: Was the pun intended?
2:32:38
SM: What?
2:32:38
PK: You said "good point", no pun intended?
2:32:41
SM: No! no! No! No pun intended.
2:32:43
PK: Pun intended.
2:32:45
SM: P.U.N. right?
2:32:46
PK: P.U.N. as in toothpick.
2:32:48
SM: Yes. The pictures. I think I know what you are going to say in this because I read one of your books that the pictures that you feel define the generation because pictures say a thousand words, oftentimes, and when I thought of the (19)60s and (19)70s, I think of three pictures that came to mind and but when you think of, say the (19)50s (19)60s (19)70s or (19)80s, what are the pictures that come to your mind photographs that were in front of newspapers or magazines that if they had not read a thing they could, it would tell a lot about the time that we are talking about.
2:33:26
PK: Well there are two sides to pick from, besides the big one, one is a horror picture of a group of people including a little naked girl running in Vietnam had just had been splashed with Napalm.
2:33:43
SM: Thats Kim Phuc, that is one of them.
2:33:46
PK: Uh, huh .And, on the other hand, it was a poster. It was originally going to be it was "the war is over." And I think it was and the design on a poster was going to be that classic one of from World War II of the sailor kissing a woman on the street. And feminism was an early contemporary feminism, was in it is early phase and so there was a kind of sensitivity to even the implication of that, you know that it is good that the war was over, but that was no reason to impose yourself on a stranger and so to be politically correct, there was a photo on the poster of a Vietnamese woman with her arms outstretched and there was doves, white doves, perched on her arms in that gesture.
2:34:57
SM: Wow.
2:34:59
PK: And that is kind of the anecdote to the other one.
2:35:05
SM: Of the three that I was thinking of in that you mentioned one. One was the three athletes at the 1968 Olympics, the black power with the fists up. Right.
2:35:17
PK: Tommy Smith and John Carlos and the third one was the girl over the body at Kent State. Jeff Miller was shot and Mary Vecchio that made the front cover of Newsweek and won the Pulitzer Prize that picture. And the one that I thought you were going to mention was the one of the gentlemen putting flowers in a gun at the 1967 protest at the Pentagon. Oh, yeah, that ̶ actually was yippie organized. He was known as "Super Joel."
2:35:55
SM: Mm hmm.
2:35:57
PK: But the other one also stands out. Another horrible one was the Vietnamese, South Vietnamese general shooting?
2:36:07
SM: Yes.
2:36:08
PK: Sitting there on his knees, shot him in the head.
2:36:10
SM: Yep.
36:10
PK: That, that kind of remains.
2:36:12
SM: Another one was the, the My Lai massacre where you have the picture of all the people alive and then all of them dead on the ground.
2:36:21
PK: Yeah.
2:36:21
SM: That, that is a, that is a terrible picture too.
2:36:23
PK: There was a photo I had taken by Paul Avery a reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle who investigated the Zodiac and Patty Hurst case, and he had been in Vietnam and the photo which I had on my wall many years. And it was of both mother and child, obviously has been geared by Vietnam, just looking out in horror, looking directly at you. And then when my daughter came to live with me, she said Daddy, why do you have that on the wall? And I said, Well, you know, it puts my problems in perspective. But then one time, after I had been living there for ten years, Ken Kesey came to visit us and we had such a relationship that he could get away with this and he just ripped it off the wall and he said it is time to take that off the wall. And you know, you would not want a stranger to do that, but, but I saw Kesey's point of view and you know, because but I had wanted to see it because that picture so horrified me at first it just became part of the scenery you know, you can ̶
2:37:33
SM: Right.
2:37:36
PK: Just repetition just each time I looked at it another level, another layer of edge was taken off and it just and it was kind of a metaphor for horror in general you know what people have gone on through that, you know, you cannot really remember pain, you can remember having it but and then so it is like that with art. You have it on your wall and then it is there and it is there and that is it. But if you move it to another place in the house and you are tense again. But I think what has happened is a lot of people have become inured to horror by twenty-foor/seven news cycles as well as all of the Chainsaw Massacre movies. Just part of the culture.
2:38:54
SM: You cannot end an interview without a couple of things that you said in your book that needs to be on record. That is the, the positives of the counterculture. I am very pleased that you have given me the names of these individuals to interview to make sure that their point of view is heard and it will be. But in your book, you mentioned four or five items here that are very positive results, lasting results of the counterculture. And I just want to mention them, and you can expound on any of them if you want to, but organic food, environmental movements, the alternatives spiritual practices, which I see all the time with our students, alternative medical practices, certainly the peace movements that are ongoing even though we would like to see more of them. Organic food is a big one. It is part of our life now. And so, if You have any thoughts on what any more that you can say about some of the positive results of the counterculture that the critics never mentioned,
2:40:03
PK: Well, well, what we really wanted we wanted to have people in the future party with a (19)60 theme where everybody could have oregano in a baggie and give it to other people, in their tie-dyed shirts. That was our real goal.
2:40:31
SM: I did not hear you what? I said that was our real goal. To inspire (19)60s fashion parties in the (19)70s and (19)80s. Really?
2:40:41
PK: Not really! But you have to take the risk of being misunderstood.
2:40:48
SM: I do not remember reading that in the list. Go ahead. [laughs]
2:40:57
PK: But it is as if but it is as if that was it that is the only you know, evolution continues and, and something else deems campy when it was the way that we lived our lives. But you know and so that is why it is important not to remain frozen in the (19)60s, because I would miss a lot of this century then.
2:41:33
SM: You, obviously you are really anybody who is in a position of responsibility or I do not want to say always authority but somebody who is out there speaking their mind having points of view the ultimate integrity, Arthur Chickering, the great educator Rhodes educated identities, said the ultimate is integrity. Integrity means I know who I am. I know what I stand for. I know what I believe in. I am willing to be criticize and praised for it. I am strong enough to take both. And I believe you are that kind of person too. And it is interesting when you have the kinds of critics here like a Harry Reasoner, I remember this. I remember Harry Reasoner I remember he did not treat. Forget her name very well, when she was on television with him, um Barbara Walters. "Krassner not only attacks, establishment values, he attacks, decency in general." You have got to be a pretty strong person to be able to handle that kind of stuff.
2:42:31
PK: Oh, well, I never. I was amused by it and the noise of being coupled with Joe McCarthy when he said that McCarthy and I were the only people that Harry Reasoner would not shake hands with if he met them as part of his professional career.
2:42:54
SM: Wow.
2:42:55
PK: And so I was annoyed by the fact that says Senator Joe McCarthy had immunity from with everything he said whereas I had to deal with the possibility of libel so I was amused by it otherwise and was going to try to arrange with a photographer friend that could get me into a party where Harry Reasoner was going to be just so I could introduce myself and put my hand out to shake so that the photographers could get a photo of that and then I could publish it with his quote underneath.
2:43:42
SM: Hmm.
2:43:43
PK: I never got around, but you know, I just had learned that he said for his needs, not mine
2:44:00
SM: And of course he died way too early too I think he fell down stairs or something like that.
2:44:06
PK: But again I had a one person show in Los Angeles and it was called Attacking Decency in General, so nothing gets wasted.
2:44:19
SM: Right! [laughs]One couple things I want to throw in here I love the quote you had in your book Dave Dellinger said "the power of the people is our permit." I thought that was a beautiful that is a quote. And of course Phil Ochs, even though he has passed on. I Ain't Marchin' Anymore is still a very important music that goes through many generations. So his legacy lives on.
2:44:52
PK: In fact, a documentary about Phil Ochs in production now.
2:44:59
SM: Oh, really? That is good.
2:45:00
PK: But that will hopefully bring a, somebody is also writing a screenplay about him. And Sean Penn originally wanted to do something about him and play him and even do the singing. So it is good that is his legacy.
2:45:22
SM: I am down to my final two questions here. And one of them is the Twinkie defense. I cannot as another term that came from you. And that is because I did not know until I read the book that that that term came from you. And of course, I lived in the Bay Area when that happened. I was in Burlingame. And I was there from (19)76 to (19)83. So I was out there when all this happened, and the two killings and then the trial and, and then of course, he committed suicide a couple years later, but just your thoughts on comparing that experience of being out there in San Francisco when all this happened to compared to some of the other things, this is like this is (19)78 now we are talking about this is not the (19)60s.
2:46:12
PK: Well, you know what, I covered the Patty Hearst case and a trial and, and the Dan White trial and I was struck by the contrast between because Patty Hearst was kidnapped and forced to be present with a machine gun when a bank was robbed. And she had to and she was, and she was found guilty. Whereas, Dan White deliberately committed a double political execution and got off easy and that is it summed up by Lenny Bruce's maximum that "In the halls of justice the only justice is in the halls."
2:47:09
SM: Hmm. Wow. Yeah because I, I was I were you outdoors that day when Joan Baez was singing it was the outdoor event? It was after the I guess the caskets were inside City Hall and they had that event out there they had a flyer and seemed like?
2:47:33
PK: Oh yeah, I remember that.
2:47:34
SM: There were thousands of people.
2:47:35
PK: Marching with candles.
2:47:36
SM: Yes. It was an unbelievable experience to be there, another person murdered.
2:47:46
PK: Because I got caught in the post-verdict riot and beat by the cops and which affected my whole posture and my gait. So it is you know, it had its own effect on me.
2:48:00
SM: Right, how you doing?
2:48:02
PK: Well, I have walk with a cane now, so I would skip over that. But you know, I would like to do it over. But I have to accept the reality of it. So.
2:48:18
SM: I think Rex Weiner said that he was there too. He was there. Maybe not with you what with others after that verdict was given, he was pretty upset. And the last question I have here is, again, it is kind of goes back to the first question. How do you feel as time passes? As all the people who experienced what you experienced pass on I am feeling this now and I am 60, my parents felt this when all their friends were going on. I saw them in the World War II generation. And it is like, it worries me because I worry our history just is not there when we are gone. But here is my question. How do you feel as time passes as all the people who experienced what you experienced pass on? Are you fearful that one: time will wipe out you and your peers history away from the history books, because of the people who will be writing it when the boomer generation is all gone? They did not live during that period. And secondly, fear that the future writers will look at the yippies, your work as nothing but the theatrics? Acting childish, adults never growing up? No real meaning beyond what I just mentioned, because that has been some of the critics of a lot of the boomer generation, that they never grew up.
2:49:50
PK: That is a good question because I have thought about that and you know, I had the fantasy that my autobiography would become required reading because it has gotten a lot of praise and it was Art, the fellow who wrote Art Spiegelman who wrote Maus, and got a Pulitzer prize for it, and they called my book the definitive book about the (19)60s and because my life kind of was a microcosm of how that evolved. And so that is, that is my contribution to that history and you know, I cannot, I will not know about it when I am dead, of what they say about whatever my legacy is, but you know, there is nothing I can do about it and I cannot worry about it. It is just, you know, you do what you do. It is all summed up by Popeye "I am where I am." So I um, and, you know, and in the long run, ultimately it doesn't matter, you know, there is only so much history people can absorb. And, and my personal history is nothing in comparison to global warming. And so I just try to keep my perspective.
2:52:02
SM: And so when you talk about your lasting legacy that is what you are saying then ̶
2:52:08
PK: That what?
2:52:09
SM: What do you hope your lasting legacy will be and what would you think the lasting legacy ̶
2:52:15
PK: Oh my lasting legacy, I want to be that whoever I inspired will inspire other people, so it continues on with the without me. You know, I have my goal was to communicate without compromise, which is what Lenny's was and most of the people I know, and I was fortunate enough to be in a position to be able to do that. And then so you know, if I can whenever something happens, I am always aware of, is something I can do about this or not something I could do about it? And if there is not something I can do about it then I go on to the next thing. And, you know, and it is a lot of decisions, whatever passes before your perception. You know, going to get involved and not get involved. And the older I get, the more of my priorities fall in place. And it is too late, you know, I would like to have the novel I am working on become a best seller, but if it doesn't, at this point, you know, as my wife once said "process his product" and so I am enjoying the process of it.
2:53:56
SM: That is what I am doing.
2:53:57
PK: I am pleased through that Simon and Schuster published the autobiography Confessions of a Raging Unconfined Nut, Misadventures in the Counterculture in 1993. And since then, I have expanded on it, and it is about to be published digitally. And so, you know, people will be able to get it on their iPads or whatever. So, so my legacy is, in my case, what I have written, and that can go on and, that is it, you know.
2:54:51
SM: And lastly, what do you think the legacy of this boomer generation will be? Again, if someone is born right after World War II, that was how they were defined. There were all these babies born after World War II.
2:55:05
PK: Well, they are realizing what a commodity they are. You know, there are, as you know, there are a demographic. And what I just read in today's local paper here is that this there are two, at least two senior centers that are taking the word 'senior' out of their title out of the title of the centers they run, because boomers do not like to think of themselves as senior citizens.
2:55:37
SM: Wow.
2:55:40
PK: You know, that is and so that goes to show that they are, you know, that they are worth, that they are worth something as, as consumers. And that is better than nothing at all.
2:56:11
SM: Yeah, and one of the things too, that you bring up in your book is the AARP or something, people that produced that movie on the History Channel about I think it was the hippies.
2:56:24
PK: Yeah.
2:56:25
SM: Yeah, that.
2:56:26
PK: But that had nothing to do with the AARP.
2:56:28
SM: No, did not have anything to do the AARP, but I am saying the history channel that they, it was almost like they, the attackers were more prominent than the people who experienced it or whatever. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?
2:56:47
PK: Oh, just what my favorite color is.
2:56:50
SM: What is your favorite color?
2:56:52
PK: Orange.
2:56:53
SM: Ah, yeah, talking about colors, that flag! Whose idea was the flag for the yippies. Who came up with that design? Yeah, the marijuana plant. I do not have a right in front of me here. Oh yes, I do. Yeah, who came up with a design for the yippie flag? The red star with the marijuana the flag of the youth international party?
2:57:19
PK: You mean the calligraphy? Well, I do not remember off-hand who did come up with that, but, but that is the thing about it. A lot of people in in those days did things boundlessly and did not want credit for it. And in a certain sense, it did not matter. You know? I am going to change my name, to anonymous so that I can get credit for a lot of things that I did not write.
2:58:01
SM: Also, you know, you got Groucho. I guess he tried drugs for the first time? So that was an interesting experience. Would you consider Groucho a real (19)60s person?
2:58:14
PK: Oh, I just never, you know, I think that there is a quality that goes through civilization that there are people they question authority. And, and so I think of Groucho as having as a, as somebody who encouraged questioning authority by making them by his irreverence, and I just do not label him with a ̶
2:58:56
SM: Very good.
(End of Interview)
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2 Microcassettes
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Interview with Paul Krassner
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Krassner, Paul ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Authors, American--20th century;Journalists; Comedians; Publishers; Realist (New York, N.Y.); Krassner, Paul--Interviews
Description
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Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor, and publisher of the <em>Realist</em> magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography <em>Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture</em>. He studied Journalism at Baruch College.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-03-10
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.165a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.165b
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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179:00
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e09602564888cb535a1cf72f2e6818e1.jpg
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Dublin Core
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-03-11
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Morris Dickstein
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Morris Dickstein is a scholar, historian, academic, essayist, book critic, and public intellectual. Dr. Dickstein is a Professor Emeritus of English and Theater at CUNY Graduate Center in New York City and he is the author for several books. He graduated from Columbia with a Bachelor's degree and earned his Ph.D. from Yale University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Morris Dickstein is a scholar, historian, academic, essayist, book critic, and public intellectual. Dr. Dickstein is a Professor Emeritus of English and Theater at CUNY Graduate Center in New York City and he is the author is several books. He graduated from Columbia with a Bachelor's degree and earned his Ph.D. from Yale University.</span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Literary critic; American, Culture; 1960s; Writers, Poets; Politics; Brooklyn College; Beat writers; Counterculture; Dropouts; Columbia; Woodstock; Vietnam; Baby Boomers; Activism; Social protest; the Communist party; Immigrants; Poverty; Black nationalists; Separatist; Freedom Summer; Drugs; Veterans; Black Panther Party; Women's studies; Gay studies; Political correctness; Kent State; Separatism; Hippies; Yippies
Duration
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93:50
Subject LCSH
Scholars; Historians; College teachers; Dickstein, Morris--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Title
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Interview with Dr. Morris Dickstein
Contributor
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Dickstein, Morris ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Scholars; Historians; College teachers; Dickstein, Morris--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Morris Dickstein is a scholar, historian, academic, essayist, book critic, and public intellectual. PDr. Dickstein is a Professor Emeritus of English and Theater at CUNY Graduate Center in New York City, and he is the author of several books. He graduated from Columbia with a B.A. and earned his PhD from Yale University.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-03-11
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.43
Date Modified
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2017-03-14
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
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93:50
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d08b9497f15d95ff617984b8898864dc.pdf
e491464aef0d2da2ed7ba8a715c28264
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMT ON
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U N I V E R S I T Y
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D E P A R T M E N T
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�PROGRAM
Toccata in E Minor, BWV 914
.J. S. Bach
(16851750)
Iieun Iang, Piano
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The rest of today’s concert is given over to some of Binghamton
University’s studentrun music groups. These organizations are
not formally part of the Music Department, but many of the
students in them particpate in department ensembles and other
activities. These groups contribute greatly to the musical life of
the university.
. originally recorded by
Soul to Squeeze.
The Red Hot Chili Peppers
arranged by Megan Westfall
originally recorded by
Norah lones,
arranged by lared Steinklein
Don’t Know Why
The Binghamtonics
Strike Up the Band
..George Gershwin
(18981937)
.The Crosbys
Pretty Girls
Something About You.
The Binghamton Crosbys
...The Crosbys
�Binghamton University Music D epartment’s
UPCOMING EVENTS
«fiebflfiebflfiebflfitbfldefifldhbflfiéflfiebflfieb
Thursday, March 25% MidDay Concert, 1 :20 PM FREE
Casadesus Recital Hall
Th ursday, A p ril 8til Jazz MidDay Concert, 1 :20 PM FREE
Osterhout Concert Theater
Th urs day, A p ril 8th Harpur Jazz Ensemble Concert [cosponsored by the Harpur
Jazz Ensemble and the Binghamton University Department of M
usic),
8:00 PM, Osterhout Concert Theater, SS (FREE for students)
S atu r d ay, A p ril 1 0 % Junior Recital: Jieun Jang, piano, 3 :00 PM, Casadesus
Recital Hall, FREE
S atur day, A p ril 1 0 % Lecture/Demonstration on Jacques Ibert’s Concertino
da Camera: Origins, Early Reception History, and Current Performance
Considerations for Alto Saxophone and Orchestra by Professor Daniel Gordon,
11:00 AM, FA 1 11 , FREE (cosponsored by the Binghamton University Music Department
and the Harpur College Dean’s Visiting Speaker Series)
S atur day, A p ril 1 0 % Sweet Albion: The English Clarinet with clarinetist
Timothy Perry and pianist Margaret Reitz, 8:00 PM,
Anderson Center Chamber Hall, $$
Th ursday, A p ril 1 5% MidDay Concert, 1 :20 PM FREE, FA 21
Friday, A p ril 16ch Master’s Recital: Stephen Brooks, double bass,
8:00 PM, Casadesus Recital Hall, FREE
For ticket information, please call the
Anderson Center Box Office at 7 7 7ARTS
To see all events, please visit musicbinghamtonedu
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Coverage
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1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
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Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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In copyright.
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1 sound disc
Duration
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01:00:57
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Mid-day concert, March 11, 2010
Recital Tape 2010-3-11
Description
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Works by Bach, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Westfall, Jones, Steinklein, Gershwin, The Crosbys. Held at 1:20 p.m., March 11, 2010, Casadesus Recital Hall.
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Jang, Jieun
Binghamtonics (Musical group)
Binghamton Crosbys (Musical group)
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-03-11
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sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6a75d94cede5c01827dfd203e5df6c2c.pdf
2a456ae18619754c4231782c64880770
PDF Text
Text
DUO MONTAGNARD
at
Joseph Murphy, S axophone
M a tthew Slotkin, G uitar
Program to be selected from the following
“Nicht Akzeptiert, S onatine”
George Dara velis
(b. 1964)
“Les Trois Soeurs”
Charles Stolte
Water
Air
Rock
“Before Clocks Cease Their Chiming
(b. 1969)
Andrew Walters
(b. 1967)
“Untitled ”
Shane Endsley
(b. 1975)
John Orfe
“Fast, C heap, and Out o f Control”
(b. 1976)
Marilyn Shrude
“Face o f the Moon ”
“Messengers”
(b. 1946)
John Anthony Lennon
(b. 1950)
THURSDAY, M A R C H 11, 2 0 0 9
4: 25 P. M.
CASADESUS RECITAL HALL
FREE A N D O PEN T O T H E P U B L I C
Duo Montagnard’s visit is funded in part by the Harpur College Visiting Speaker Fund
pril Lucas
Master class students are from the studio o f A
�D U O M O N T A G N A R D was formed in 2002 and has performed over 130
concerts in 25 states, Canada, Slovenia, United Kingdom, Greece, Thailand, New
Zealand, and Australia. Festival performances include the Chautauqua
Institution, the Hartwick College Summer Music Festival, and the Alexandria
Guitar Festival. Recent commissions include pieces by John Anthony Lennon,
George Daravelis, John Orfe and Charles Stolte.
J O S E P H M U R P H Y has been the saxophone professor at Mansfield
University of Pennsylvania since 1987. He has also been director of bands,
department chair, and taught a variety of courses. He received the bachelor of
music education from Bowling Green State University (OH), and the masters and
doctorate degrees from Northwestern University. Dr. Murphy was the music
director of Tiffin (OH) Calvert High School from 198385. In 198586 he received
a Fulbright Award for a year of study in Bordeaux, France where he received a
Premier Prix. In June 1996, Dr. Murphy performed a solo recital at Lincoln
Center. He has performed in 13 countries including Australia, New Zealand,
Thailand, Taiwan, Japan, Greece, and several countries in western Europe. He is
a clinician for the Selmer Corporation and Rico Corporation and has been
recorded on Erol (France), Mark, and Opus One labels. Dr. Murphy’s
memberships include Music Educators National Conference, Music Teachers
National Association, North American Saxophone Alliance, National Association of
College Wind & Percussion Instructors, College Band Directors National
Association, Phi Mu Alpha, and Kappa Kappa Psi. His award winning website is
w w w.saxophoneeducation.com.
M A T T H E W S L O T K I N is an acclaimed performer, teacher, and scholar,
and has appeared in leading venues throughout North America, Europe, Asia,
and Australia. He has achieved success in solo performance, chamber music,
and as a soloist with orchestra. A commitment to the promulgation of new
compositions has resulted in numerous premieres of works by composers
including John Anthony Lennon, Scott Lindroth, John Orfe, and many others.
Recent performances include tours of New Zealand, Australia, the United
Kingdom, and Greece with Duo Montagnard (Joe Murphy, saxophone), as well as
concerts at the Monadnock Music Festival, the Hartwick College Summer Music
Festival, the Guitar Foundation of America convention, the Chautauqua
Institution, and the World Saxophone Congresses in both Thailand and Slovenia.
American Record Guide praised Slotkin on his Centaur Records release,
“Twentieth Century Music for Guitar,” for his “musical sensitivity and technical
control,” and for giving “strong readings of this appealing music.” A concert
review from the Classical Voice of North Carolina stated that “Slotkin performed
brilliantly.” Centaur Records released his new recording with double bassist
Craig Butterfield, “Dances, Songs, Refrains,” in 2010. Slotkin directs the guitar
programs at Mansfield University in Mansfield, PA and Bloomsburg University in
Bloomsburg, PA. He has given masterclasses at numerous institutions and
festivals including the Oberlin Conservatory of Music, the University of
Melbourne, and the Alexandria Guitar Festival. He received the Doctor of Musical
Arts, Master of Music, and Bachelor of Music degrees from the Eastman School of
Music, where he studied guitar with Nicholas Goluses and historical performance
practice with Paul O’Dette.
�
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Coverage
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1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
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Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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In copyright.
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1 audio disc
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01:00:57
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145343">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145343</a>
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Duo Montagnard, March 11, 2010
Recital Tape 2010-3-11
Description
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Held at 4:25 p.m., March 11, 2010, Casadesus Recital Hall.
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Duo Montagnard
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-03-11
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sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3c74dcd976a3ea4da8e61af8e6d96296.jpg
b265bce0ccdcc0be1c6658e514ddc207
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/48b8566310ade53ddacee94ef0636504.mp3
e89cc478bfad745d02f66f79eed891ab
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-03-12
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Paul Chaat Smith
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Chaat Smith is a Comanche author, essayist, and curator. He wrote the books Like a Hurricane: the Indian Movement from Alcatraz to the Wounded Knee and Everything You Know about Indians Is Wrong. Smith has also lectured at the National Gallery of Art, Center for the Arts in San Francisco, and the Getty Center for the History of Art and the Humanities in Los Angeles."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13309,"3":{"1":1},"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Paul Chaat Smith is a Comanche author, essayist, and curator. He wrote the books <em>Like a Hurricane: The Indian Movement from Alcatraz to Wounded Knee</em> and <em>Everything You Know about Indians Is Wrong</em>. Smith has also lectured at the National Gallery of Art, Center for the Arts in San Francisco, and the Getty Center for the History of Art and the Humanities in Los Angeles.</span>
Keywords
Bobby Seale; Pete O’Neal; Black Panthers; Native American/American Indian Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee; Alcatraz; Red Power; Leonard Garment; COINTELPRO; Wounded Knee; Robert Warrior; Raymond Yellow Thunder; Trail of Broken Treaties; Vine Deloria Jr.; Independent Oglala Nation; Self-Determination Act; Bureau of Indian Affairs; Clyde Merton Warrior; LaNada Means; U2 Incident; H. Rap Brown; The Weathermen; Richard Oakes; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Comanche.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
87:01
Subject LCSH
Comanche Indians; Authors; Essayists; Museum curators; Smith, Paul Chaat--Interviews
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Paul Chaat Smith
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers
Date of interview: Not dated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:06
SM: Testing 123. Testing 123. Testing 123. [Background comments: Great, super. I have to go back and forth here. Is that TV set on over there or? I guess I will not bother.] When you look at the boomer generation before we get into Native American boomers that is the question. The first question I want to ask is, do Native American boomers those individuals born after 1946, do they identify with this generation of young people that were involved? I know the American Indian Movement was a very important movement and from (19)69 to (19)73 but when you talk about the boomer generation, do you and do Native Americans as a whole identify with that group?
01:02
PS: Yeah, it is kind of a good question. I am trying to remember when I first was familiar with that term, the boomer generation, and like, you know what I made of it at the time, what I think of it now. So, I do not know, I cannot say.
01:22
SM: I will let you hold this and check this every so often to make sure it is working properly. I know what I am saying, but I want to make sure.
01:28
PS: Okay, this is good.
01:30
SM: Yep.
01:31
PS: Okay. So I cannot recall a lot of Indian people I know talking about themselves as boomers but you know, the changes that happened in the United States, you know, post-World War II and someone like me coming of age in the late 1960s. You know, it is clear there was a national and global phenomenon going on. But I think how people connected to that or, you know, if they felt, you know, what they had in common with other people in the same generation, I am not sure. But I think there was definitely a sense of, you know, events happening that, you know, that you are a part of that are the circumstance about, you know, global economy and national events. So I do not know, it is a funny word "boomer" right, it is like you are trying to same, you know, Generation X and Generation Y. You sort of sense, it is sort of, you know, part of this idea of naming something, you know?
02:44
SM: You state something, and in some of the things that you have written that you and your cohort when you wrote that first book, believed that what the counterculture was to white Americans and what the civil rights movement was to black Americans, the American Indian Movement was to Native Americans. And I would like to define it in two ways: number one, how important the American Indian Movement was during that four or five year period, but link it with also that the period prior too, which was "red power", which was like, because I can remember that when I was a student about the Mohawk nation up in Syracuse. They were furious about their land being taken away, and they got students from Syracuse and Binghamton. They were all working together to stop the highway from going through their land. That was Red Power.
03:37
PS: Yeah, I mean, the discussion about boomers and activism obviously overlaps hugely with the idea of the (19)60s. So one of the things that is interesting about Native activism is that, you know, the first really huge major event did not happen until one month before that decade was over. It was in November 1969, at Alcatraz. So, you know, I talked about it as us being late to the party in a way, you know. There was important activism before then and you can look at the nature, when you talk about Red Power. That was characterized by college students, native college students, who had a completely different kind of aesthetic to their, to their movement. There were people who read the New Republic, they were people who unselfconsciously called themselves intellectuals (this is like: 1964, 1965, 1966) and that was also the look of, you know, the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley, for example, you know. So those things were quite similar. In terms of people about the American Indian Movement, you know, that is an organization that was formed in 1968. But it is real impact came, you know, not really until the early (19)70s. So, you know, it is interesting to talk about the (19)60s in activism in terms of Native people and see that, you know, most of it was happening after, you know, a very powerful anti-war movement. You know, it was already established. And obviously, there were activists who were part of the anti-war movement. Some of the leaders, early leaders of the American Indian Movement, talked about being influenced by the Black Panther Party. Looking at some of the tactics they use to challenge you know, police practices in major cities. You know, people were partly you know, watching television and reading some of the same books. Yeah.
03:37
SM: Yeah, yeah, a lot of the upstate, two individuals in particular, Newt Gingrich when he came to power in 1994, and then George Will, throughout his career as a writer, always take shots. They love taking shots at the (19)60s generation, and all the activism that was taking place. And oftentimes they say that a lot of the reasons why we have the breakdown in American society today, with the unbelievable divorce rate, with the drug culture, lack of; no sense of responsibility, disliking people in positions of authority, it all goes back to that era. And basically the student activists. And those 15 percent of seventy-eight million that were involved, whether it be the anti-war movement, the women's movement, Native American movement, Chicano, the environmental, all those individuals gay and lesbian, all the ones that were in the movements. They like to blame them. Of course, generalizations are not good but when you hear that, when you see someone writing about that, even when you think of AIM, it is really attacking AIM too. What are your thoughts? As people reflected on those times today? They like, everybody likes to place blame on things.
07:30
PS: Yeah. I think there was a great deal of ̶ there was ̶ There was a lot going on. So I think, you know, there was at times, a sense of self-congratulation and hype about, you know, the (19)60s, about activism about the counterculture and for me, I think one of the important things to look at the Indian Movement was to take kind of a more dispassionate examination of that. To really try to see what, what the consequences actually were. And, you know, something like AIM or the Panthers or the anti-war movement become so polarized. You know, it is very hard to actually have the kind of conversation, you know that I think we need. So, so the American Indian Movement was for a couple of years by far the most influential and popular quasi-organization and there are implications of it, you know, thirty years later. So, I have been interested as somebody that was part of it towards the end of it is, you know, successful years to take you know, to take a hard look at all of that. The consequences of it. One of the reasons that Robert Warrior and I wrote our book "Like a Hurricane", was that we would meet people like, he was teaching at Stanford, I think then and he would meet Indian students whose parents had actually been activists in AIM and all they really knew about AIM was, you know, a movie like Thunder Heart, you know, with Val Kilmer or just a lot of representations that, you know, not even an issue what they are being correct or not, but just obviously very superficial and coming from a different place. So it is a lot about trying to look at that history more seriously, and engage it. So you know, we saying clearly that we are just, you know, extraordinary heroism and bravery and intelligence, and fantastically stupid decisions, a culture of thuggishness, you know, certainly took hold. And I think all those things have to be looked at, you know. I do not know I mean to talk about like, blaming these movements, you know, for things that are going on today. I do not know what that is really what interest that really serves. But I think taking those movements really seriously looking at all the sacrifices that people made, looking at what actually was accomplished. You know, that is sort of what, you know, I was trying to do with that project.
09:27
SM: You okay? When you say 'thuggishness' was that? Would that be what happened to the Students for Democratic Society when they became violent? When the Black Panthers, although they were Bob (Seale) and (Pete) O'Neal's program, there is a lot of people that consider them a violent group and they took guns. Is that what you are saying about the Native American movement? AIM, in the beginning, and then it changed toward the end? It became even much more militant?
10:43
PS: Yeah, I guess it is similar in some ways, you know. AIM as opposed to SDS, you know, never was a real organization. Anybody could join at any time. There were like five different national leaders, you know, a national chairman, a president, an executive director, things like that. So, so you could not have any real accountability in that situation but there was certainly, you know, an element that really believed in armed struggle, you know, that really believed in, you know, the kind of, the kind of, I guess without the discipline of the Weathermen or something but certainly, you know, there were elements of AIM that really relate to guns, you know.
11:23
SM: Your upbringing. Where were you born? And at what moment? Were your parents, the ones really, obviously young people are finding their friends. But then there comes a point as a young person, you are starting to identify with one's culture. Who was the most influential person in your life in say, those first ten to fifteen years? Who influenced you the most? And you became sensitized to issues of Native Americans.
11:50
PS: Me and my two sisters, we were all born in West Texas, although we have virtually no memory of it because my family moved to Upstate New York briefly, so my dad could get a doctorate at Cornell. But we, both my parents are from Oklahoma. My dad, a white guy who actually is now an enrolled Choctaw. My mom Comanche. So I know we were very connected with Oklahoma. They sort of hated Oklahoma, which is why they wanted to leave, but then we always went back. So this was, you know, growing up in the 1960s. It was because we mostly me and my sisters who mostly lived in Washington, DC, but we were pretty connected with Oklahoma. So when I was growing up, my grandfather, my mom's Dad, you know, he still was minister of the Comanche Reformed Church, and they still did certain church services in ̶ and Comanche so it is not like I was disconnected from that. I was not around it all the time. But it was before the sort of cultural renewal, you know, really took off in the later (19)60s. So it was not, there is something very Oklahoma about it and that you know, this church that had been around since the turn of the century. And, you know, you see all these pictures, you see all this history of it. But it is not like my mother's side of the family talked about the old days in any particular narrative of either struggle or resistance or anything, you know, my mom, so my mom's brothers were in the military in World War II. They could not, none of none of my mom or siblings could go to like powwows or anything like that. And, you know, it is was like a lot of the US and the world was at that time, you know, the middle of the 20th century, which was not about us hanging on to our language, no matter what, let us keep our ceremonies, you know, let us do all that. And so now we pretend that we always were like that, but that is just not really true. Certainly not a place like Oklahoma. So, I would say for me and my sisters, you know, coming of age in the late (19)60s you are influenced by all kinds of things. And we certainly were. So all of us were, you know, all of us connected with, you know, seeing world in different ways. For me, it was politics for my younger sister it was going to Institute of American Indian Arts, Santa Fe. My sister also worked at Indian organizations for some graduate studies. So we were part of that. I think that is where a lot of people learn, like that.
14:23
SM: [Inaudible for a minute] Testing one, two. That is better.
15:13
PS: It seems better to me. What is wrong with it? Sounds fine.
15:15
SM: I do not know why I did that.
15:17
PS: Oh okay.
15:17
SM: It is a different tape. I am going to hold it here and I will double check a hook or something. Okay, we are talking about Alcatraz.
15:27
PS: Right, Alcatraz.
15:28
SM: Why? What was its purpose and what were its goals? And how important was it with respect to the American Indian Movement?
15:39
PS: Well, Alcatraz came about because the United States closed its maximum security prison on the island. So it became a question of what would happen, you know, to this amazing piece of real estate with all those gorgeous views of San Francisco Bay. And so there were various ideas of luxury housing and some kind of a resort and all these things that were not very practical because Alcatraz was, you know, the most secure prison in the country for a really good reason which is very difficult to get there. So the idea of having condominiums there and a shopping center and all that was not very realistic. And so the urban Indian community in the Bay Area, thought you know, well actually, we should get Alcatraz. So there were California Indian folks that had been pursuing various you know, actions towards redress for many years. The Urban Indian Center in San Francisco that had suffered a disastrous fire so they needed a place, and you know, everybody's talking about Alcatraz in the Bay Area. So all of that turned into a ̶ you know, a few dozen college students organizing a takeover on the island. This was in November 1969. So landing on, you know, getting those from Sausalito to be on Alcatraz overnight, you know, was an adventure but not incredibly hard to do. What really changed the event was the fact that it was because it was federal property it became a first a General Services Administration issue and then it went to the White House on how to handle these protesters. And Richard Nixon at that point, the new president, you know, was sort of shopping for a model minority, a minority group where he could, you know, build a good record. So, he had these high level advisors, one of them was Leonard Garment that saw an opportunity to, you know, be in dialogue with these protesters to explore possibilities for the administration to show their good faith for this minority group. So it all could have ended in a day or two. But the decision by the Nixon White House to actually negotiate with the occupiers, turned it into a very different thing and elevated the event to a whole other level. So it actually lasted for a year and a half, the occupation. And so it got, it never got the kind of attention people want to remember it as getting. It was, you know, it was in the national news maybe once or twice. It was a big story in the Bay Area for quite a while. It was, you know, like a lot of like a lot of the activism that Robert Warrior and I talked about in your book, it was sort of heroic and smart, and also badly planned. For there is a period of months in which people talked about it as a Lord of the Flies situation. You know, it is sort of the downside of having this wonderfully open movement that anybody can join. It means you get, you know, criminals and drug dealers and thugs being part of it. And very idealistic people. So it was that kind of a mixed bag. But I guess what was so startling about it was the idea that Indians would do something like that. Would occupy, would break the law and occupy federal territory. I think for a lot of Native people had internalized this idea that we would never do something like that. And so it was kind of amazing to a lot of Indian people. Apart from the particular demands, or who the groups were; the individuals, it was just wow, Indians did that. That's pretty amazing.
19:48
SM: Was it mostly boomers was mostly young, Native Americans? I know. I am just reading a couple of the names. The one young man ended up dying that was the leader, the guy that swam in or?
20:06
PS: Yeah, sort of the leader of the group was Richard Oakes. His daughter died during the occupation in an accident. He was, and Oakes himself was killed seven years later, in a separate, in a separate event.
20:22
SM: Did the federal government really make a rough on the AIM leaders? Yeah, because the federal government and Richard Nixon was spying on anybody and that was an activist at the time. Did you feel the pressure within AIM that the government was watching you and every move that you were making?
20:40
PS: Yeah, by the early (19)70s. Clearly. Especially after Wounded Knee, it was sort of no secret that, you know, the FBI considered, you know, AIM a very dangerous organization. I mean, they would say so in public press conferences and you know, the COINTELPRO tactics that were used on other movements were certainly use against a AIM in the (19)70s. Without a doubt.
21:09
SM: That was pretty intimidating. Did that, did those activities and what they said about the leaders carry on beyond the (19)60s? In other words, they made life miserable for them ongoing? Because of their involvement?
21:24
PS: I mean, I think the period in which, you know, the US government really focused on AIM was certainly through most of the (19)70s. For sure, yeah.
21:35
SM: In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
21:38
PS: I would say, it began 11/22/(19)63. And I would say it ended in 1975.
22:14
SM: Is that because we ended our involvement in Vietnam, is that the -
22:21
PS: I would say that, and other things. Yeah, I guess I mean, it is always really artificial. But yeah.
22:38
SM: Is there one event that you feel had the greatest impact on Native American boomers in their lifetime? Particularly when they were young?
22:46
PS: I do not know what that would be? I cannot think of one.
23:06
SM: Can you think of one? What was the one event that shaped you more than any other?
23:10
PS: I would say, less at the exact time but I think the Wounded Knee occupation in (19)73 just because out of that, I ended up a year later, going out to South Dakota. But I did not know much about it at the time. And so it is sort of more in retrospect. But that certainly was a major event for me and you know, a lot of other people. But I think those are people who are more inclined to activism in the first place. You know?
23:43
SM: Why was Wounded Knee the event? How did that? You had Alcatraz. You had the incident in Washington with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. You had them obviously many other activities and events. But that one. What made that stand out?
24:07
PS: Well, you know, just as Alcatraz was startling because you had Indians willing to actually, you know, break the law destroy government property. This was Indians actually taking over a town, you know, and occupying it and holding off, you know, Federal Marshals. So again, that was like an electrifying idea that that could be happening. The idea that you would, you know, take such measures to call attention to what conditions were like on Pine Ridge Reservation which were desperate. You know, all that was, it was like: Indians are really doing this? This is amazing.
24:53
SM: Is there? When you look at not only Native American boomers but boomers as a whole. I mean, you cannot generalize again. But where there are certain characteristics that were positive or certain characteristics that were negative toward this generation? Particularly emphasizing the 15 percent that were activists; which is pretty cool, almost eighteen million people, when you think of the numbers. What were the strengths and weaknesses in your eyes?
25:26
PS: One of the things that was interesting about the Indian Movement that I knew as somebody who came out in (19)74 to South Dakota, so this was a year after the Wounded Knee occupation. Years after Alcatraz. And, you know, really appeared in which that was the year that Nixon resigned. That was the year that, you know, the Vietnam war, at far as US involvement was winding down in terms of the number of Americans in combat, not necessarily in terms of deaths or anything. But you know, in a sense that was late. And the Indian Movement always had this amazing variety of people actively involved. Which was not really as true of a lot of other movements. So you had so many older people, and you had so many like children, you know, throughout all these age groups. Of course, there were examples of that in other movements, but even some of the key leadership of AIM, they were actually, you know, in the early (19)70s, they were in their mid-(19)30s. Some of them. So they were older. But, but some of the most influential people were actually in their ̶ you know, (19)60s or (19)70s; elders who were very influential. And you would see little kids everywhere. Babies everywhere. All that. So I think that was kind of striking.
26:57
SM: It is a lot different than some of the others.
26:59
PS: Yeah, it was. It was.
27:03
SM: I know Dr. King tried to get younger people into his civil rights but he was criticized heavily for doing that by fellow African Americans who felt like what are you putting young fifteen and sixteen year olds under that kind of pressure? Yeah, but he was trying to do it. And I know the women's movement had some of the babies by their sides and stuff. But I cannot think of too many other movements, seeing kids at.
27:25
PS: Yeah, yeah and I mean you look at photographs and moving images of some of the key events. You see that. How, how diverse in terms of age, the Indian movement was.
27:40
SM: The issues oftentimes when you look at Native American issues, in the (19)50s, (19)60s and beyond, some things are striking. You see all the broken treaties. Of course the treaties have been historically broken for a long time, way back to Ulysses Grant, you know, the breaking of treaties. People went to plead the case that treaties were being broken. We certainly had poverty and a lot of various issues of alcoholism. Do you find that it is when people write about Native Americans, that they, they seem to dwell on the negative sometimes as opposed to the positive? And that is what the AIM, the American Indian Movement, really in the end was about empowerment? Not letting others dictate to us, we can dictate to them.
28:30
PS: Hmm. Yeah, it was about empowerment. Definitely. Definitely. I think for me, the main flaw of the Indian Movement was, you know, an inability to articulate some kind of strategic vision on what we are actually going to try to win. So the movement was great at highlighting a specific incident, like when a guy named Raymond Yellow Thunder, you know, was killed at the Dakota/Nebraska border and basically nobody cared. You know, Indian organizations did not care, the government did not care, the tribal governments did not care. You know, it was great at mobilizing people on behalf of somebody like Raymond Yellow Thunder. But not that anything about the civil rights movement was easy, obviously none of it was. But an issue like voting rights, an issue like fair housing, you know, segregation. Those were issues that affected you know, most African Americans in the US in a huge way. And that you could, you know, actually have a solution, not a revolutionary solution, but you could actually do that. A lot of the issues that community cycle and the Pine Ridge Reservation face were you know, are incredibly complex and often not really similar to other reservations, let alone Indians who live in cities. So in other words for the Indian Movement to say you know something under the tiller, is a voting rights, is it fair housing? What were those demands? Sure. People could, you know, talk all about you know, you have broken our treaties. Okay you have broken our treaties. Now what. What exactly? Those were the things that were very difficult. Probably the moment that the Indian Movement came closest to that was the, the 1972 Trail of Broken Treaties caravan that came here to Washington in which, there was you know, they had some significant you know, tribal government folks, people like Vine Deloria Jr. all saying look, here are these twenty points that should be a starting point for real discussion to deal with these things. They were not just demands they we were saying let us have an engagement. So that was a moment that there was something you could actually talk about. At Wounded Knee, you know, when you declare yourself the Independent Oglala Nation, sovereign from the US, you are not really going to have much of a discussion, right? That is a pretty extreme position. The Trail of Broken Treaties, of course, blew up and practically resulted in the firebombing of the Bureau of Indian Affairs building on the eve of Nixon's reelection. So, you know, the smart work some people had done to develop this program was eclipsed by almost being this catastrophe.
31:38
SM: Do you feel Richard Nixon used the Native Americans particularly in the American Indian Movement, because from the very beginning, he wanted to work with them, and then it became very hard? Because Law and Order was such a big issue in America and he was going to stop the protests. Do you think? Do you feel that they were used?
32:01
PS: You know, I think that is kind of what Robert Warrior and I were hoping to find out. That our search of you know, archives and talking with, you know, government officials and, other folks. We did not really find evidence that this was of any real concern to Nixon himself much at all, then. You know, this was, there was a lot going on. There were these high level senior aides that did have this idea, this political project of saying, Nixon's really good on Indians and in fact, if you talk to virtually any Indian, people that look at this closely, they will say, and I am sure this will be startling to many of your readers that Nixon is the best president for Indians of the 20th century.
32:47
SM: Why? That would be! That is, that is a magic moment, really.
32:52
PS: Because of the Self-Determination Act in 1970 which basically said we are going to reverse this policy; or informally sort of reverse assimilation and termination. It granted, you know more rights to tribal governments and said we will engage tribal governments. And it also specifically returned certain lands to Native People. Like Blue Lake for the Taos Pueblo and all of that. So, in terms of a policy point of view, I mean, you could say that it just shows how terrible all of the other presidents have been, and certainly it does not change what the FBI did in terms of activism. But in terms of the big picture of policy, you know, you could get almost in any Indian and say who was a better president than Richard Nixon? And I think very few would come up with a name.
33:48
SM: I cannot live in your shoes. One thing to learn early on, I was involved in a lot of anti-war stuff, but you cannot be in someone's shoes. And the thing is, it is the fact that all the land in this country was Native American, basically. You know, and, and, of course, now the reservations, and of course, there is gambling and so forth. Some things have changed, that are positive. You mentioned that at the end of your book. But still, it is got to be pretty upsetting, isn't it still? To know that this really, all belonged to Native Americans and it was the white man that really – that is all the white man has really seemed to do.
34:35
PS: Yeah. It is kind of crummy. That is true.
34:42
SM: Yeah, it is um, you mentioned that the American Indian movement still has an influence today. What was, what was the lasting influence that, that activism, whether it be Red Power, or American Indian Movement has had the Native American community? As boomers you know, Native American boomers are now reaching sixty-two, they are like, all the other boomers. What is the lasting effect of that activism?
35:09
I think it is, I think it is ambivalent. I do not think there is; I do not think the Indian community in the US has made up its mind yet about it. I think their kind of popular cultural references are still pretty, are what a lot of people know. I have heard many people who are not part of this activism, and many folks in the US talk about how, this museum would not exist without a ̶ you know, that they feel for all the faults of a you know, a lot of what that activism really was about was invisibility. About nobody even knowing that we are here. About being completely ignored. About being in the past. So whatever else AIM did, it certainly said, look, we are still here. And it says something else: we are not who you think you are. We are not who you think we are. That you imagine that we are, you know, just completely peace-loving and would never, you know, take over a building or a town. And it was a shock to see that some Indians would do that. So, you know, it is interesting that many people who are not big fans of AIM, would say this building would not exist without that activism.
35:09
SM: Then this, this is kind of the lasting legacy then, really.
35:48
PS: Yeah, I mean, you know, in a way that museum is a little bit like Alcatraz, where it is this moment that comes up that all of a sudden there is this island. What happened with this building was that in the late (19)80s, the largest single intact collection of Native material, a museum called The Museum of the American Indian in New York, all of a sudden was kind of up for grabs. So the Smithsonian, the American Museum of Natural History and Ross Perot actually all tried to get hold of this. So, in other words, without that collection, whatever the mysterious way countries decide to take seriously like slavery in the US for example, which is ̶ in many ways, or look seriously at Indians. It would not have been enough without that collection being there. The Smithsonian was not going to open this building without material, right? So it forced that. So it is kind of an interesting confluence of things. But clearly people would say the activism that pushed this, even you know, when people took over Alcatraz, they talked about a museum being there. They talked about a school and job center and all that. But they talked about a museum. You know, at BIA, there was a museum in that building. A huge number of artifacts that were on display. And even at Pine Ridge, at Wounded Knee in the village of Wounded Knee, there was a little trading post, Wounded Knee museum. So there is this thread of museums to kind of go through this activism. So in that sense, I think there is a real connection with the existence of the ̶ and the American Indian, and the activism going back to the 1960s.
38:24
SM: I think one of the important things that you bring out in your book is that you really define those, the top activists. We all know about the two that most Americans know about is Dennis Banks and Russell Means and they are in the (19)60s history books. But the thing is what you bring up Clyde Warrior, Hank Adams, Richard Oakes, LaNada Means and certainly Dennis Banks and Russell Means. Why is it important that these names must be known by American students today when we talk about the (19)60s and the (19)70s and post-World War II America? Because I do not think I have to tell you that our students do not know a whole lot about history, period. How important were these people? And what? Where would the Native movement been without those six people?
39:21
PS: Well I was thinking about when you said most Americans know Russell Means and Dennis Banks I was wondering what Americans you are talking about.
39:24
SM: [laughs]
39:28
PS: Because I think actually, very few people, you know, really would know those names or know the American Indian Movement at all actually. I mean, that is, that is a huge thing everybody is looking at now, is, right? How much Americans know about their own history? Was the Korean War before after the Civil War? We want to know the answer, right? But for me to answer your question, I think it is about how in 1967 let us say, a lot of really smart folks looking at this situation probably would have predicted yeah, there is going to be an interesting Indian Movement, that is going to be much larger than it is now. And I think almost everybody would have said it is going to be led by students. Because look at the (19)60s, look at how students were at the forefront of the anti-war movement. Of much of the Civil Rights movement students were extremely important. And you had these people like the ones you are mentioning, Mel Tom and, you know, Hank Adams all these people who came out who and identified as students -
40:44
SM: LaNada Means. I mean!
40:46
PS: Yeah, that is right.
40:47
SM: I did not know much about her, but boy, people should know about her! If you were to even ask boomers when they went off to college: name Native Americans that you know, and that is my, you know, our generation. Obviously, they would know from the history books about Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse and some of the big name Native Americans. But the one that would probably come to the forefront would be Jay Silverheels because he was the sidekick of the Lone Ranger. It is just amazing! Jay Silverheels was the most well-known Native American in the (19)50s!
40:51
PS: Right, right. So you have all these people who, almost all of which were students and were student activists and wrote and all that. And yet, what emerged was AIM. Which was basically nothing like that. There were a few students there, but it was led by these older folks, you know, who were much tougher. Much different. Not in their twenties. And had a much rowdier kind of base of urban Indian folks and Reservation folks. You know, that was pretty prevalent. You came from a poor background, you are pretty privileged if you are going to school in California University system in 1967 or eight, you know, you are in a good situation, comparatively. So anyway, it was interesting to look at that to see how unpredictable history is. And how different this was, and I am sure if I had been there in (19)67, I would have predicted that students are going to be decisive but it was not students at all. It was people with criminal records or, you know, people who were, you know, Dennis Banks was somebody, an executive at Honeywell Corporation for a while. So it makes it fascinating when you realize how, in retrospect, it was predetermined but you know, if you put yourself back at that time, how unlikely it was that AIM would look like what it was. And how sad it is that the kind of intellectualism that a lot of the student movements had in the Indian world was kind of lost. People wrote long, thoughtful letters to each other and, you know, tried to keep abreast of, you know, things going on elsewhere in the world in a different way. By the time Mean came along, it was not that cool to be reading a book for a while, you know. So you always want to know these things to not have to give up one for the other, you know. Yeah, that is right. He was. He was very famous.
43:07
SM: Yeah. Then there was another one that was on the Walt Disney show had the advertisement with a tear coming down, he was in a lot of Disney movies.
43:13
PS: Right, right.
43:14
SM: That was that was the other one too.
43:15
PS: A commercial. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. It is funny, there were some Vietnam vets who were part of Wounded Knee, you know. On the AIM side. And they used their skills. You know, it was so different from now, it was a draft, right? So took a lot of effort or pull to not to get drafted. I think it is curious that there is a, there is a mythology, this is in my mind, a mythology has been built up about how special it is that we are, you know, that a traditional concept of warriors, you know, is used by even us to talk about us being in the US military. Because I do not think Indians in the US military were any different than anybody else. And I think the notion that there is almost an exemption, I think a lot of people that would like, not want a discussion about the horrible things white soldiers did in Vietnam, that you would not hold Indians to the same standards. How that would be different. It is interesting, we go to powwows and very common to have a special ceremony for veterans and of course I think veterans should be treated with respect, you know, they made a sacrifice for their country, but it is almost like a complete denial that while they were serving the United States in Iraq or in Vietnam and that somehow the idea that you are Indian makes it that does not really matter because you are really some kind of sovereign soldier or something like that. So I do not know that would be that is, that is a certain kind of invention, I think, in the US Indian world about that you can think how wonderful it is our soldiers went there and again, beyond disrespecting their service that they did this, although in some cases, they did not have a choice because they would go to prison if they did not, and do things all other soldiers are supposed to do. But it is so special and cool because they are Indian. I think it was, you know, difficult for everybody who was in a place like Vietnam. But I think somehow we have been kind of, you know, something was being created about Indians in that war in particular, you know, that I think is suspect to me.
43:16
SM: I have got to. This is coming out fine this time, let us hope. The question I have is about Vietnam veterans. Now, I have just gotten a hold of Mr. Holm. I do not know, Tom Holm who has written books on Native Americans from the west coast. He is in Arizona. And he has got a book that was written on Native Americans who served in the Vietnam War. There were a lot of Native Americans who served our country in that war. And a lot of them came back and we have had a couple on our campus over the years talking about the experiences of coming back to America. Your thoughts on the Vietnam veteran, Native American Vietnam veterans, who served their country and what they came home to. I have some things that I will share with you, but I want your, basically your feelings, on those. That is because there is a lot of them on the wall. A lot of Native Americans on the Vietnam Memorial. I know that when they dedicated the property over there, where they are going to build the underground center. A very well-known Native American Vietnam vet was there. He heads the organization. And he was very close to Jan Scruggs, and everything. I do not remember his name. But I know Paul Critchlow from Merrill Lynch in New York was the only white man that was ever allowed into the organization because they fought side by side in Vietnam. And finally, they allowed this one white man to be a warrior. One of the perceptions that you read about amongst Native Americans - How are we doing time wise? Because 4:30 is when we are done.
47:23
PS: Yeah.
47:25
SM: I got to go to another, this thing better be working. I will bring a second one the next time we are going to be dropping them. The Vietnam Memorial, Native Americans, oh, the perception when you read in the books on Vietnam, is that many Native American Vietnam vets or soldiers were put on the front. They were the ones that were at the very front because they felt they were supposed ̶ a stereotypical attitude that says they can 'track'. So they will put them on point.
48:02
PS: Right, right, right.
48:03
SM: And a lot of them died.
48:04
PS: Yeah, yeah. Because they were not magical so a lot of them died.
48:07
SM: You have heard that before then?
48:09
PS: I never heard of it in a way that necessarily trust it. I mean, I will give you another example the idea that Mohawks have special ability about heights because they worked high steel, right? Famously, many of them worked high steel. I met some of them, you know? They said, you know, help put up this bridge or you know, this building. But, you know, they were, they were highly paid industrial workers who were happy to come to New York and do this and, and they did not have any particular ability about heights. They did not have any special skill about heights, they were like people who needed work, we are glad to do it. Maybe they let people think that. Or maybe some of them believe it themselves. But it gets really kind of silly to think that they were you know geniuses on high steel, or that, you know, because you have Native ancestry you knew how to track in a jungle in Indochina. That is a little -
49:12
SM: Vietnam veterans, no matter what background they came from, we were not treated very nice when they came home to America.
49:18
PS: No.
49:19
SM: All of them were not even welcome at the Veterans of Foreign Wars. If you were a Vietnam vet, no matter what your background, we do not want you. Now they are 80 percent of the organization. But at that particular time, they were not welcome, because there were all these perceptions out there: they were baby killers and all the other thing is My Lai. Things like that. And that was so far from the truth. But in the Native American Vietnam vets that, you know, I know you cannot generalize, but how are they treated upon their return? Not only by Americans as a whole, but by Native Americans? Their peers. Were they held in higher respect because they had served their country? Or did some of the older Native Americans, or some of their peers did not show respect for them because they went to war?
50:07
PS: It is hard to say. I mean, I could think of a few examples, but they seem so singular. I would not know how to characterize, that. I am sure a lot of the same attitudes everyone else had were the same. I think for a lot of in the twentieth century, a lot of Indians joined the military. You know, for the same reason other people who, you know, are economically disadvantaged do. As I said earlier. You know, my mom's family, all of her brothers were in World War II. So there is a tradition of that. So, it might be a little different than other communities where people felt they had more choice or born automatically, you know, expected to be in the military.
50:59
SM: These are general questions right now. One of the general questions is all the other movements that were taking place at that time, the anti-war, the Native American, which we already talked about the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, certainly in the environmental movement, and the civil rights movement. Were Native Americans, were they connected to those movements? Did they did they attend the rallies for those movements? And the second part of my question, because one of the things that comes up, that is why I believe this name "Means", the female, is very important, because there is a lot of sexism within the within all the all the movements. In civil rights and anti-war it was rampant. Was there sexism within the Native American movement where women were second class citizens, so to speak? Or, there were not very many in leadership roles?
51:58
PS: One of the informal logos that was very common for AIM was actually a version of the Playboy logo. So that spoke to a certain sexism within AIM. That was absolutely true. One of the things that is a little bit different is that there were very strong women leaders in AIM, but they were overwhelmingly related to some of the well-known leaders, some of the guys. You know, more sexist than SNCC? I do not, I cannot really assess that. But I would say the nature of it was that you probably had a lot more women in key activist positions than maybe in some of the other groups. But I think a lot of the sexism that we see in other organizations was, was similar to what happened and what was true in AIM.
53:02
SM: And were more most of them were women leaders mostly older as opposed to boomer age, which were younger? Like the young man who was kind of the leader of Alcatraz? He was like twenty-two years old. Were there any women that were twenty-two that were like him?
53:19
PS: In the Dakotas there were a number of women activists that I worked with that were in their twenties, mid-twenties, even thirty that were very key activists in the movement, yeah.
53:32
SM: This is a question that I have asked everyone. There is two basic questions that I have tried to get at. One of them is the concept of healing. Whether we are still a nation that has a problem with healing, particularly within the boomer generation, as now they are heading into Social Security age that they are going live another twenty years, boomers are not going to die easy. But your thoughts on whether we as a nation have a problem with healing from all the divisions that took place in America, at that time. Not only the division between black and white, male and female, could be a Native American or white, a white man it could be for the troops, against the troops. All those issues. Because we went through the riots, we went through all these issues through and (19)68 and all those things that happened. And the reason I am asking you is, I took a group of students’ right here at DC about nine years ago to meet Edmund Muskie, the former senator before he died from Maine who actually ran for vice president. We asked him that question, because the students wanted to know they saw (19)68 and they said, man, we close to a civil war that year? And because they were not born then. He responded by saying we have not healed since the Civil War, let alone (19)68. So he would not even talk about (19)68. Your thoughts on whether we as an; whether the boomer generation, which includes Native Americans, all boomers all seventy-eight million of them are going to head to their graves with issues or problems with healing. Of course some people do not even think about this but some might. Particularly the 15 percent of the activists who tried to make a difference in this world. Do you think we have a problem with healing? Is there a problem of healing in the Native American community?
55:27
PS: I do not know. It feels like part of the human condition maybe. I do not know. It feels, um, I do not know that this country or this generation is great at it but I do not know who is.
55:46
SM: The people that were involved in that very important movement from (19)69 to (19)73 as they have gotten older, not only the people who were old, the pre-boomers, but people like yourself and boomers after (19)46 they know that they are going to pass someday. And it is only going to be the history of that particular period. Do they worry that? Do they still have some problems with the groups of the people they were having problems with back then?
56:20
PS: I know there are a lot of people on Pine Ridge, where Wounded Knee took place (19)73, you know where it is, like ten thousand people then, I guess, but it is basically small enough that everybody knows everybody. And some of them leave but most of them do not. So that is a case where, I do not know there have been real efforts of reconciliation between people who were, you know, really mortal enemies. People really killed each other, you know, after Wounded Knee for a while. And you know, people in that context really tried to come terms with things. I cannot really speak to that in terms of, you know, I was never in a situation where I was in a place like that where you are, you know, community based and dealing with that over time.
57:19
SM: Do you think people would even come here to this facility? Some, especially Native Americans, who from all over the country might finally get that chance to come here to Washington see this facility that not only does it bring pride to their culture, but it is also a little bit of healing too? From maybe some of the frustrations and may have seen in the past?
57:44
PS: A lot of native visitors feel different things here. I do not know. I guess maybe some people would talk about it as beginning the process of healing of reconciliation. You know, the biggest moment for this museum was when it opened in September 2004. Something like twenty thousand people -
58:12
SM: Saw it on TV.
58:12
PS: Yeah, that was this huge moment. And, you know, it felt great, you know. What happens the next day? How does, you know, the museum actually work beyond being a symbol beyond being just affirmation and pride. You know, that is a more difficult question I think.
58:33
SM: And Bill Clinton was late too, was not he? Very late. He got criticized for that, because the White House is not very far from here. I heard he was late for everything, from people that work for him. A couple of other things too. The issue of trust. One of the issues that I felt that I personally felt and I have asked everyone is whether the boomer generation and again, all boomers have a problem with trust because they saw so many leaders lie to them. Certainly you already told me some of the things that Nixon did to the Native American community, but obviously Watergate and Gulf of Tonkin, the Vietnam War. There is questions about what was going on Vietnam with even President Kennedy. If you were an observant Boomer, you knew even Eisenhower lied to you, the U2 incident and then you go on into Reagan with Iran Contra, so the boomers have throughout their lives have seen leaders who have disappointed them or lied to them. But secondly, people who major in political science know that when you have, when you do not trust your government that is healthy, because that shows that dissent is alive and well and supported. Your thoughts whether you feel the Native American boomers have a problem with trust. With Native Americans have not been able to trust too many people throughout their lives, have they? Because of lies taking away land and then as time passes, probably more than any other group along with African Americans, the lies have been outrageous.
60:13
PS: Well, then you have an overlay of dysfunctional tribal governments that are corrupt and inefficient and also liars, so, you know, it is, I do not know, the skepticism. It is, it is certainly deserved, but it is not, it does not just work on, like the US government, you know. Its again, a lot of very seemingly intractable issues that are very, very difficult. So, you know, it mostly means we are not thrilled with our tribal governments, you know so it is very difficult.
60:51
SM: What is the number one issue right now? And what are the biggest issues today facing Native Americans that still have to be resolved in your in your view? And certainly now that the World War II generation is passing on, and now boomers are getting into old age, we got Generation X'ers now who are in their forties. So we got, you know? What are the issues that Native Americans are still unhappy with or still have to be resolved? In your opinion.
61:27
PS: Well, we are still among the poorest people in the United States, so that is still true. There is this looming demographic change that is coming up, where, you know, when I was growing up being half Indian was sort of just been barely Indian. Now, you know, I mean, all these -
61:56
SM: It was the batteries, they were dead. These do not last long, I tell you.
62:01
PS: Well that is good to know -
62:03
SM: Well what happened here was one question I lost, but I do not know.
62:06
PS: Yeah, but you know, this idea of like quantitative percentages and all that that, you know, really only we talk about in this way, it is very bad. You know, that is changing a lot so, most if you go to any big Indian family reunion, you know, it looks like the United Nations, you know, it is people from all over the world often, you know. So that is a very different thing than the (19)50s or (19)60s where if you were a quarter Indian, you did not even really count in many ways. So, so that is something people are looking at now. Definitely change is coming.
62:49
SM: What is the Vietnam Memorial mean to you?
62:51
PS: I am not someone that was you know, I was affected by Vietnam at a distance, obviously, because I was not somebody who was immediately at risk. I guess I would say I think about it in terms of, you know, as a sort of a museum professional about seeing it as a very effective monument in Washington. Look closely at how it was created and that has nothing to do with the emotional impact a lot of people would have, I do not feel like it is something I, you know, would own or be a part of. But what I what I think about though, is that when Maya Lin was brilliant at though was understanding, you know, she understood what people wanted versus what they said they wanted. So, if you ask, this is what our museum does, is ask people to like, design the exhibits you know. So ask, most Vietnam veterans, gee here is our idea. It is a wall of granite with names on it. How do you how do you like that? Most of them would have said, it is probably a terrible idea, and there was a lot of hostility at it when it was released. And yet the emotional power of it, you know, was incredible and that showed that she had an insight into the human condition and the human heart, you know that triumphed versus what people wanted to see they wanted to see figurative displays. So that is how most people do not know how to think about monuments or art so I think it is an incredibly successful thing, but I am not ̶ I was not in Vietnam, I did not lose people in Vietnam. So I obviously
64:45
SM: Do you know many vets? Do you know the influence this had on many vets on Native American vets?
64:49
PS: Not really I mean, I knew vets that were either, who were part of AIM. No, it is not really something I know about or could speak about.
65:00
SM: I am just asking here now, just your immediate responses to some of the terms and people of the era and that is what the Vietnam Memorial is. And what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
65:10
PS: I remember when they happened. It was a big deal. I was in high school, I remember when it happened.
65:17
SM: What was your thoughts on it, when you heard that four college students are killed on a college campus and then two were killed a week and a half later?
65:27
PS: Yeah, I was, you know, I mean, I was living in Washington. So um, you know, it was, campuses, you know, in turmoil, and it was it was a very traumatic time.
65:42
SM: The fortieth anniversary is coming up this year, I cannot believe it. What is Watergate mean to you?
65:50
PS: Watergate was fun. It was interesting. It was like this long form novel of you know, a lot of things happening at a time. You know, very antiquated, right? Because you would have to, like, get the Washington Post each morning, you know. A very old fashioned kind of thing. It was great.
66:11
SM: And when I say this, not only you but whether you felt any of these had an effect on the Native American community too. Hippies and Yippies, what do you think of them?
66:22
PS: I have noticed that Indians have always been terrible at choosing allies. So early on, we decided hippies were good allies for us. And then we are stupid allies for us. You know, and we encouraged that a lot. So I do not know who I would have chosen instead. But I think you know, the idea to feel like there is this natural affinity was not helpful to our situation, in my opinion.
66:56
SM: How about the Black Panther Party? When I say this, I am talking about seven or eight different personalities here, Eldridge Cleaver, to Kathleen Cleaver to Bobby Seale and Huey Newton and Dave Hillier, Norene Brown, Stokely Carmichael. H. Rap Brown the entire gamut. What did you think of them?
67:21
PS: I was a SNCC guy. I liked SNCC. I did not like the Panthers that much. I especially did not like the California Panthers. But you know, you talking about somebody who at the time is fifteen years old, right? It is not like I was palling around with them. In one of my essays I wrote, I experienced the (19)60s, one of the best ways possible through television. Maybe the most authentic way possible. So you know, I am the kid who is reading books and making judgments, you know.
67:48
SM: What is your history lesson? What do you think they were good for, or bad or what? Overall? Because they challenge the civil rights movement, and they were they were the ones that challenged Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer and Roy Wilkins and said, you know, you guys are times past. This is Black Power now, it is not about non-violent protests.
67:50
PS: I did not think they were very bright.
68:20
SM: How about the students for democratic society too and that was another group that was the anti-war group that became the Weathermen.
68:28
PS: Yeah. You know, it is a group that always had a lot of cache. I cannot really remember. I guess I did meet people. And sort of there was sort of solidarity work done with Indians and I think I met some people who have been SDS but not like, you know, necessarily at Berkeley or anything. So you know, it was, it was a group that, you know, again, me is a pretentious teenage intellectual. So I am reading about SDS and we can learn about it and all that. But it felt pretty remote to my experiences.
69:11
SM: You mentioned TV, you learn through TV. You learned about a lot of these persons in black power through TV. What? What were the things that you saw on TV that influenced you? The media was very important. It was the first; TV brought the Vietnam War home to America. I mean, they saw it every night on the news. In the Native American community, obviously TV was very important, I am correct? Particularly if you live in like North Dakota or South Dakota or?
69:52
PS: I do not know, I did not live there. I lived in suburban Washington so I do not know what that experience was like. I mean, you know, I heard Stokely Carmichael speak at the University of Maryland. You know, I read the Washington Post, I mean, I got information from a lot of places. So I would never like, it was always filtered through certain skepticism about what was what was going on, about the Panthers or whatever.
70:22
SM: I was going to ̶ why do you think the Vietnam War ended? What do you think was the main reason when the combat that it did end?
70:34
PS: And that question saying the war ended when?
70:36
SM: The war in the 1975 but, the reason why it ended?
70:44
PS: Yeah, well, I guess like most people, I would say it would have ended sooner. That the last several years, we are really about saving things for the United States, which is you know, any realistic idea that the US could win that war.
71:10
SM: Even though you are fifteen and you saw it on TV, how important you think students are an ending that war? Because there were obviously Native American students at Berkeley and other schools that were protesting.
71:21
PS: Yeah, it changes everything when you have a draft, you know, it like, you know, it is completely different than what you are looking at now.
71:33
SM: One of the big issues within that time frame was that it was the draft. That was why the protests were happening and certainly a lot of African American, Latino American and Native Americans were not able to have the influence that good old white Americans had getting out of the war.
71:50
PS: Yeah.
71:50
SM: Through deferments, well going to college for one thing. You got out until you finished school and then they would go after you.
71:58
PS: Yeah.
71:58
SM: But they did not have access to that.
72:01
PS: Right.
72:02
SM: So that is another very, did you hear that talked about it all in the Native American community? That many were forced to go in the military?
72:15
PS: Only rhetorically, I mean, not, you know, not really beyond that. You know it is obviously true that people had more access, you know?
72:26
SM: Some went in too because they thought it was going to be a career.
72:29
PS: Yeah.
72:30
SM: It was a career direction that they were taking.
72:32
PS: Yeah.
72:33
SM: Now I have got a quote here, but I know that I had all these names, but you were fifteen so I am not sure if you want to respond to these names or not. But just quick, just quick thoughts on these people real fast. How are we doing time wise?
72:51
PS: Five more minutes.
72:51
SM: Five more minutes, okay. What did you think of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden?
72:55
PS: I lived the Bay Area in the late (19)70s. So they were actually, let me see, I think Jane Fonda, I saw her speak once. Tom Hayden ran for the Senate that might have been (19)78 or something? I do not know. Hollywood celebrities sort of, I do not know, they were not. I mean, I never I never. From an activist point of view, you are trying to get them on your side. But it was never really clear to me what that did for us. So I do not know.
73:34
SM: When you look at the President's for the boomers, which goes from Truman to Eisenhower to Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II and now Obama, of all those presidents, I know you cannot speak for all Native Americans, but were any did any of them stand out as popular within the Native American community and why?
74:09
PS: It was surprising how many Indian people supported Obama. Because Indians in the US did not know Obama and he did not know Indians. And McCain had been on the senate Indian Affairs Committee for many, many years. But as it turned out, Indians overwhelmingly supported Barack Obama for President. So that was interesting. As I said earlier, from a policy perspective, most people would say, overwhelmingly, Nixon was the best president for Indians. So, yeah.
74:40
SM: Some of the other names I will not go through all these presidents but the leaders of the women's movement and certainly the politicians Eugene McCarthy and Bobby Kennedy and Hubert Humphrey and Lyndon that whole ̶ (19)60s, politicians of the (19)60s, did Native Americans, like any of them?
75:06
PS: I think a lot of people liked Bobby Kennedy. Was what it seemed like.
75:14
SM: And of course, he was assassinated. Of course, Dr. King and Malcolm X were also very important, different styles, different ways, Muhammad Ali with the refusal to go in the draft.
75:27
PS: Yeah, yeah.
75:29
SM: Were there any heroes within the Native American community outside of the Native Americans? Who were not Native American? Did they have heroes? Do you have heroes?
75:43
PS: Joe Strummer, probably would be a hero.
75:45
SM: Who?
75:45
PS: Joe Strummer of the Clash.
75:49
SM: Okay.
75:49
PS: I am not a (19)60s guy. I do not know. I do not know. It is see, you know sort of as a cultural critic, you sort of are about tearing down heroes not building them up. So I do not know. I guess I do not have a lot of them.
76:15
SM: And notice that today's students, their heroes are their parents, or their uncle or their aunt, and you do not, see too many political figures, maybe some athletes.
76:24
PS: What is up with kids today with their best friends are their parents? I did not get that. It is what I keep reading about.
76:28
SM: That is the millennials what is amazing is 85 percent of the students today are from Generation X parents. Yeah. Fifteen are boomers. The boomers that have kids late.
76:39
PS: But how can your best friends be your parents? I do not get it.
76:39
SM: But what do you what do you think will be the lasting legacy of the boomer generation with that includes Native Americans, what do you think will be one of the best history books ever written?
76:54
PS: I think it is, uh, you know, people had an incredible ride, you know. An incredible moment in history to be able to have amazing educations of amazing economic situations. The last great generation of the American Century maybe? That stuff is never coming back; you know? I just think, very fortunate. Like my parents too, earlier generation, but you know, just people born in the Depression. If you worked hard, you could end up upper middle class that is what my parents did. They both were from modest families, you know my mom was a preacher's daughter and my dad was even poorer, even though he was white. And just by being smart and working hard, they ended up upper middle class, and I think that is a very different situation now. I mean, I respect that they work hard and everything but everything was there for them. You know, at that time, that kind of education, you could get the kind of jobs that were there, you know, the economy steadily, you know, becoming stronger.
78:11
SM: Overall. And since you are kind of a middle boomer, not an early boomer, are you pleased overall with the way boomers have lived their lives? Have they been a good influence on their kids and their grandkids? In terms of activism, fighting for justice. I know we cannot generalize here but the boomers, that you know, are they kind of living some of the ideals they had when they were young? Or did they cop out and go off and make a lot of money and raise kids and just simply say, well, I was young then and I had a lot of time. Your thoughts on boomers over time, from the time that when you were young, looking up to them and then now, forty, fifty years later.
79:03
PS: I used to know what to do with that question. [laughs] I do not know. I do not know. I do not know.
79:11
SM: You do not know whether you are happy or sad.
79:13
PS: I do not. I do not know how to conceptualize who these people are to be making judgments about. I do not know. I do not know. I mean, the term for me is always in quotes you know. So it is hard to -
79:25
SM: And we had to define as it is that 15 percent who were activists.
79:29
PS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
79:29
SM: Because I say the eighty-five that were not they were subconsciously effective too.
79:34
PS: Yeah, yeah.
79:35
SM: But we are still talking almost twenty million people here.
79:37
PS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
79:39
SM: So you do not have any sense of whether they have they been able to share and pass this on to their kids? How about in the Native American community? Have they, they passed this on to their kids? What it was like in the (19)60s in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s and in the AIM movement? What have the AIM leaders done in terms of sharing?
80:03
PS: I think it is I do not think anybody has done very well. I think history is difficult. I think a lot of it is very complex and hard to synthesize and talk about. And I will say one thing though, I will say I gave a talk at California State University, Bakersfield last year. They had a lot of their class, had come to class, read my book of essays and the guy said he had read a whole bunch of books to get them mine because college freshmen are so hostile, are so hostile is the right word, are so uninterested in books that talk about diversity, or, you know, minority groups or you know, try to explain all this. That this is a group that is had Martin Luther King Day shoved down their throats every day since they are in kindergarten. And so I think now that you know, some form of, you know, diversity and multiculturalism, estate policy, especially, you know, nationally, especially in a place in California, kids hate it! Kids hate it! Because it is fake. Because it is a teacher telling you, you know, you ask kids about Martin Luther King is and they will say, he is a guy who died, you know. So it is like, finding a way, it is not just the intent. Of course the idea of Martin Luther King Day was a wonderful idea, I am not saying you should not have done it. But I am saying the distance between having intelligent dialogue about it or having people look at it closely, is very difficult to do. So, with the news the same thing we are trying to think about, you know, what was AIM in a sentence. I cannot explain that, you know. So, but I was interested in the fact that so many kids are basically out of there when you try to talk to them about, you know, Indian this or that or ̶ this or that nobody wants to hear about it because they have heard about it their whole life. I was in a position where you had to be oppositional to find out that stuff. It was not encouraged in school. So now we have a case where it is encouraged in schools. And I do not know if that is a good thing or not.
82:23
SM: Do you feel that? And again, I will often wonder what universities learned from the (19)60s and the (19)70s that they can apply today with young students and maybe start protesting against the Iraq and Afghanistan war, or other issues. Of course, there is no draft but as a guy who has been in higher ed(ucation) for thirty years, I do not think they have learned anything.
82:46
PS: Yeah.
82:46
SM: And, and, and I would like your observation, I only have the next last question. Your observation, our universities today and I mean, every university whether it be Ivy League, State University or community college, technical school I do not care what it is. Are they afraid of activist students? Are they afraid of the term activism knowing that today's generation of students are so into volunteerism that on any given campus between 90 percent and 95 percent of the students may be involved in volunteer work, which is great. But that is a certain number of times I am talking about a mentality of twenty-four to seven mentality about how one lives one's life, caring about the causes. Justice everywhere. So a poor family in Washington, DC we got to care about them! A person hungry in Afghanistan, and dying because we got to care about them! Just your thoughts on that.
83:44
PS: I do not know much about what universities are thinking these days. I really do not know if they are concerned about that or not.
83:50
SM: You go speak on college campuses?
83:52
PS: I do and it seems like there is a lot of activist minded people and their groups. You know, it seems like there is always kids out there looking for stuff, yeah.
84:03
SM: The last question I will not ask about these names here, but I want to repeat this because I think I lost that important segment where you were talking about how did you become who you are. If you could just repeat that for me because I think that is what I lost here on the tape that is very important how PS, how you became who you are. And certainly, the pride you have in your, your background.
84:31
PS: Oh, I think I am somebody who has a talent for writing and who is bad at everything else. So I have been fortunate enough to, you know, sort of through activism and, and then later through writing about things that interested me, you know, I am able to write successfully and find people that are interested in similar things. So, but it is mostly about being bad at everything else I think.
85:03
SM: Who? Who was? Did your parents inspire you to be a writer? Did your father, who was a professor. Did he say Paul jeez, looks like you got talent here. Did you have a teacher that says you got a talent here? How did you know that you were a good writer?
85:22
PS: I guess there was a teacher or two. Not so much my parents in terms of writing, I sort of became a writer kind of late. So it is hard to point to anything specific. So it was, I do not know, partly writing to figure out what I think I guess.
85:44
SM: And then to repeat that other thing, too, about, you know, your father, your mother, one's Native American and one is white, will you repeat that again, about your background, because that was what I think was hurt there. Where you came from and -
86:01
PS: Yeah, me and my two sisters report in West Texas. My mom Comanche my dad, a white guy from a farming family both from Oklahoma. And we lived in Ithaca, New York briefly and then -
86:19
SM: You know that is where I am from do not you?
86:20
PS: Ithaca. Right. Yeah. And then living mostly in Maryland, suburban Washington with a lot of connection to Oklahoma.
86:33
SM: Is there any last question? Last question: is there any questions I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?
86:45
PS: Seemed like a very comprehensive set of questions.
86:47
SM: I am worried that I botched that one. I think the Alcatraz one, you, I think we got enough here. Yeah, but let us hope this is okay. Okay.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Paul Chaat Smith
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Smith, Paul Chaat ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Comanche Indians; Authors; Essayists; Museum curators; Smith, Paul Chaat--Interviews
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Paul Chaat Smith is a Comanche author, essayist, and curator. He wrote the books <em>Like a Hurricane: The Indian Movement from Alcatraz to Wounded Knee</em> and <em>Everything You Know about Indians Is Wrong</em>. Smith has also lectured at the National Gallery of Art, Center for the Arts in San Francisco, and the Getty Center for the History of Art and the Humanities in Los Angeles.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-03-12
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.208a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.208b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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87:01